<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_01_26_1313208</id>
	<title>Is Programming a Lucrative Profession?</title>
	<author>Soulskill</author>
	<datestamp>1264514100000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>itwbennett writes <i>"A pamphlet distributed by blogger Cameron Laird's local high school proclaimed that 'Computer Science BS graduates can expect an annual salary from $54,000-$74,000. Starting salaries for MS and PhD graduates can be to up to $100,000' and 'employment of computer scientists is expected to grow by 24 percent from 2010 to 2018.' The pamphlet lists The US Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics as a reference, so how wrong can it be? 'This is so wrong, I don't know where to start,' says Laird. 'There are a lot of ways to look at the figures, but only the most skewed ones come up with starting salaries approaching $60,000 annually, and I see plenty of programmers in the US working for less,' says Laird. At issue, though, isn't so much inaccurate salary information as <a href="http://www.itworld.com/development/93899/programming-lucrative-profession">what is happening to programming as a career</a>: 'Professionalization of programmers nowadays strikes chords more like those familiar to auto mechanics or nurses than the knowledge workers we once thought we were,' writes Laird, 'we're expected to pay for our own tools, we're increasingly bound by legal entanglements, H1B accumulates degrading tales, and hyperspecialization dominates hiring decisions.'"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>itwbennett writes " A pamphlet distributed by blogger Cameron Laird 's local high school proclaimed that 'Computer Science BS graduates can expect an annual salary from $ 54,000- $ 74,000 .
Starting salaries for MS and PhD graduates can be to up to $ 100,000 ' and 'employment of computer scientists is expected to grow by 24 percent from 2010 to 2018 .
' The pamphlet lists The US Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics as a reference , so how wrong can it be ?
'This is so wrong , I do n't know where to start, ' says Laird .
'There are a lot of ways to look at the figures , but only the most skewed ones come up with starting salaries approaching $ 60,000 annually , and I see plenty of programmers in the US working for less, ' says Laird .
At issue , though , is n't so much inaccurate salary information as what is happening to programming as a career : 'Professionalization of programmers nowadays strikes chords more like those familiar to auto mechanics or nurses than the knowledge workers we once thought we were, ' writes Laird , 'we 're expected to pay for our own tools , we 're increasingly bound by legal entanglements , H1B accumulates degrading tales , and hyperspecialization dominates hiring decisions .
' "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>itwbennett writes "A pamphlet distributed by blogger Cameron Laird's local high school proclaimed that 'Computer Science BS graduates can expect an annual salary from $54,000-$74,000.
Starting salaries for MS and PhD graduates can be to up to $100,000' and 'employment of computer scientists is expected to grow by 24 percent from 2010 to 2018.
' The pamphlet lists The US Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics as a reference, so how wrong can it be?
'This is so wrong, I don't know where to start,' says Laird.
'There are a lot of ways to look at the figures, but only the most skewed ones come up with starting salaries approaching $60,000 annually, and I see plenty of programmers in the US working for less,' says Laird.
At issue, though, isn't so much inaccurate salary information as what is happening to programming as a career: 'Professionalization of programmers nowadays strikes chords more like those familiar to auto mechanics or nurses than the knowledge workers we once thought we were,' writes Laird, 'we're expected to pay for our own tools, we're increasingly bound by legal entanglements, H1B accumulates degrading tales, and hyperspecialization dominates hiring decisions.
'"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904868</id>
	<title>More than just programming</title>
	<author>RingDev</author>
	<datestamp>1264523280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The report must be on the low side.</p><p>I don't feel comfortable saying exactly what I made, but when I got out of the Marine Corps, with 4 years experience developing software and no degree, I was making more than that report's bottom end. And that was just after the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.Com bust in a relatively small mid-west city.</p><p>A developer I worked with while I was in the MC, back in Washington DC was a consultant who's pay rate was $125k a year. Again, this was post<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.com bust. And most of the other folks I know who are working in DC, LA, or NY are also seeing much higher pay rates. Then again, a crappy apartment in NYC costs more than a nice house in Wisconsin.</p><p>There is money to be made in business software development, but that money is not in "programming". The way to make big money as a developer in the business world is to become a domain expert on what ever it is your users do. Know everything your users do and you'll write software significantly better than the best cowboy coder in world who spends his days hiding from the users.</p><p>Know your users, communicate with them, find out the ins and outs of their jobs. Look for ways that you can help them, more than just software, the full six sigma process improvement cycle. If you can do that, you'll be exceptionally well payed for your services. That's why I prefer the title "Solutions Developer" over "Programmer".</p><p>-Rick</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The report must be on the low side.I do n't feel comfortable saying exactly what I made , but when I got out of the Marine Corps , with 4 years experience developing software and no degree , I was making more than that report 's bottom end .
And that was just after the .Com bust in a relatively small mid-west city.A developer I worked with while I was in the MC , back in Washington DC was a consultant who 's pay rate was $ 125k a year .
Again , this was post .com bust .
And most of the other folks I know who are working in DC , LA , or NY are also seeing much higher pay rates .
Then again , a crappy apartment in NYC costs more than a nice house in Wisconsin.There is money to be made in business software development , but that money is not in " programming " .
The way to make big money as a developer in the business world is to become a domain expert on what ever it is your users do .
Know everything your users do and you 'll write software significantly better than the best cowboy coder in world who spends his days hiding from the users.Know your users , communicate with them , find out the ins and outs of their jobs .
Look for ways that you can help them , more than just software , the full six sigma process improvement cycle .
If you can do that , you 'll be exceptionally well payed for your services .
That 's why I prefer the title " Solutions Developer " over " Programmer " .-Rick</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The report must be on the low side.I don't feel comfortable saying exactly what I made, but when I got out of the Marine Corps, with 4 years experience developing software and no degree, I was making more than that report's bottom end.
And that was just after the .Com bust in a relatively small mid-west city.A developer I worked with while I was in the MC, back in Washington DC was a consultant who's pay rate was $125k a year.
Again, this was post .com bust.
And most of the other folks I know who are working in DC, LA, or NY are also seeing much higher pay rates.
Then again, a crappy apartment in NYC costs more than a nice house in Wisconsin.There is money to be made in business software development, but that money is not in "programming".
The way to make big money as a developer in the business world is to become a domain expert on what ever it is your users do.
Know everything your users do and you'll write software significantly better than the best cowboy coder in world who spends his days hiding from the users.Know your users, communicate with them, find out the ins and outs of their jobs.
Look for ways that you can help them, more than just software, the full six sigma process improvement cycle.
If you can do that, you'll be exceptionally well payed for your services.
That's why I prefer the title "Solutions Developer" over "Programmer".-Rick</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903500</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906448</id>
	<title>Re:Resume</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264529100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is that second one a language or your high school grade?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is that second one a language or your high school grade ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is that second one a language or your high school grade?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903598</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909464</id>
	<title>Lucrative to my family (anecdote follows)</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1264498680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Funny timing. My wife was considering quitting her software test position (roughly $50k a year in Texas with no software experience) to go to school full-time and become a developer. Seems she can come back to the same company as a developer and expect about a $20k/year raise.  Seems pretty lucrative to me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Funny timing .
My wife was considering quitting her software test position ( roughly $ 50k a year in Texas with no software experience ) to go to school full-time and become a developer .
Seems she can come back to the same company as a developer and expect about a $ 20k/year raise .
Seems pretty lucrative to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Funny timing.
My wife was considering quitting her software test position (roughly $50k a year in Texas with no software experience) to go to school full-time and become a developer.
Seems she can come back to the same company as a developer and expect about a $20k/year raise.
Seems pretty lucrative to me.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903738</id>
	<title>I don't have a degree...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264519140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>...and my salary is $90,000.<br> <br>I work in the Washington DC area, and something like only 1\% of programmers in this area are employed with no degree, but it can be done, and lack of a degree doesn't have to have an impact on salary. It certainly can, but it all depends on the company you choose to work for.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...and my salary is $ 90,000 .
I work in the Washington DC area , and something like only 1 \ % of programmers in this area are employed with no degree , but it can be done , and lack of a degree does n't have to have an impact on salary .
It certainly can , but it all depends on the company you choose to work for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...and my salary is $90,000.
I work in the Washington DC area, and something like only 1\% of programmers in this area are employed with no degree, but it can be done, and lack of a degree doesn't have to have an impact on salary.
It certainly can, but it all depends on the company you choose to work for.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30910030</id>
	<title>Re:As a recent graduate...</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1264501020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Differentiating between "you're" and your", "its" and "it's" may seem a very small thing, but it's a sign that recruiters will use - fairly or unfairly - to draw inferences about your communication skills.</p> </div><p>Fairly.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Differentiating between " you 're " and your " , " its " and " it 's " may seem a very small thing , but it 's a sign that recruiters will use - fairly or unfairly - to draw inferences about your communication skills .
Fairly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Differentiating between "you're" and your", "its" and "it's" may seem a very small thing, but it's a sign that recruiters will use - fairly or unfairly - to draw inferences about your communication skills.
Fairly.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905308</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904656</id>
	<title>Minimum Wage</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264522440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most programmers I know earn about $2 an hour (in India).</p><p>Most programmers I know in Holland make a little more than minimum wage, but get a lot of extras like a car and a phone with infinite gas, phone calls and Internet.</p><p>In Holland every technical university teaches programming, so there is a lot of programmers around here.</p><p>Software Engineers however make a lot more money and if they are any good at what they do they almost never write a single line of code.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most programmers I know earn about $ 2 an hour ( in India ) .Most programmers I know in Holland make a little more than minimum wage , but get a lot of extras like a car and a phone with infinite gas , phone calls and Internet.In Holland every technical university teaches programming , so there is a lot of programmers around here.Software Engineers however make a lot more money and if they are any good at what they do they almost never write a single line of code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most programmers I know earn about $2 an hour (in India).Most programmers I know in Holland make a little more than minimum wage, but get a lot of extras like a car and a phone with infinite gas, phone calls and Internet.In Holland every technical university teaches programming, so there is a lot of programmers around here.Software Engineers however make a lot more money and if they are any good at what they do they almost never write a single line of code.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904956</id>
	<title>Re:Listen to the suits</title>
	<author>Device666</author>
	<datestamp>1264523640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The jobs which require a really expert skilled programmer to solve really challenging issues are just a few. There are simply way too many programmers to expect some kind of status. The majority are self appointed jesus-developers. And it's that attitude, which is so 90-s, that makes them hard to communicate and collaborate with. This megalomania doesn't make a big impression, it actually looks real stupid. So in one way developers are themselves to blame. If developers would be worth their gold in weight, they wouldn't complain so much about the management, they would be pampered too much by them to complain.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The jobs which require a really expert skilled programmer to solve really challenging issues are just a few .
There are simply way too many programmers to expect some kind of status .
The majority are self appointed jesus-developers .
And it 's that attitude , which is so 90-s , that makes them hard to communicate and collaborate with .
This megalomania does n't make a big impression , it actually looks real stupid .
So in one way developers are themselves to blame .
If developers would be worth their gold in weight , they would n't complain so much about the management , they would be pampered too much by them to complain .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The jobs which require a really expert skilled programmer to solve really challenging issues are just a few.
There are simply way too many programmers to expect some kind of status.
The majority are self appointed jesus-developers.
And it's that attitude, which is so 90-s, that makes them hard to communicate and collaborate with.
This megalomania doesn't make a big impression, it actually looks real stupid.
So in one way developers are themselves to blame.
If developers would be worth their gold in weight, they wouldn't complain so much about the management, they would be pampered too much by them to complain.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905308</id>
	<title>Re:As a recent graduate...</title>
	<author>Kijori</author>
	<datestamp>1264524960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I know that is a lot of crap! I live in the uk and earn roughly &pound;25K, prob about &pound;35K?</p></div><p>Which one is it? &pound;35k is over $55k, which would seem to vindicate the original poster's claim.</p><p>Also - and I offer this as friendly advice and in the knowledge that your Slashdot musings don't reflect on your worth as a human being - have you considered brushing up on your writing skills? Having recently been job hunting myself I can vouch for the fact that 95\% of companies are looking for people with "good verbal and written communications skills"; in other words, people who can give a decent presentation and explain things clearly in writing. Differentiating between "you're" and your", "its" and "it's" may seem a very small thing, but it's a sign that recruiters will use - fairly or unfairly - to draw inferences about your communication skills. The difference between being stuck as a programmer or being bumped up to a higher-level and better-paid position could well be as simple as being able to demonstrate that you can write correctly.</p><p>Just my experience, please don't take it as a personal attack - I don't know anything about you after all - just a bit of general advice for the Slashdot crowd.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I know that is a lot of crap !
I live in the uk and earn roughly   25K , prob about   35K ? Which one is it ?
  35k is over $ 55k , which would seem to vindicate the original poster 's claim.Also - and I offer this as friendly advice and in the knowledge that your Slashdot musings do n't reflect on your worth as a human being - have you considered brushing up on your writing skills ?
Having recently been job hunting myself I can vouch for the fact that 95 \ % of companies are looking for people with " good verbal and written communications skills " ; in other words , people who can give a decent presentation and explain things clearly in writing .
Differentiating between " you 're " and your " , " its " and " it 's " may seem a very small thing , but it 's a sign that recruiters will use - fairly or unfairly - to draw inferences about your communication skills .
The difference between being stuck as a programmer or being bumped up to a higher-level and better-paid position could well be as simple as being able to demonstrate that you can write correctly.Just my experience , please do n't take it as a personal attack - I do n't know anything about you after all - just a bit of general advice for the Slashdot crowd .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know that is a lot of crap!
I live in the uk and earn roughly £25K, prob about £35K?Which one is it?
£35k is over $55k, which would seem to vindicate the original poster's claim.Also - and I offer this as friendly advice and in the knowledge that your Slashdot musings don't reflect on your worth as a human being - have you considered brushing up on your writing skills?
Having recently been job hunting myself I can vouch for the fact that 95\% of companies are looking for people with "good verbal and written communications skills"; in other words, people who can give a decent presentation and explain things clearly in writing.
Differentiating between "you're" and your", "its" and "it's" may seem a very small thing, but it's a sign that recruiters will use - fairly or unfairly - to draw inferences about your communication skills.
The difference between being stuck as a programmer or being bumped up to a higher-level and better-paid position could well be as simple as being able to demonstrate that you can write correctly.Just my experience, please don't take it as a personal attack - I don't know anything about you after all - just a bit of general advice for the Slashdot crowd.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903802</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906504</id>
	<title>Re:Listen to the suits</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264529220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>2 words: Fog Creek</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>2 words : Fog Creek</tokentext>
<sentencetext>2 words: Fog Creek</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905996</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>Alex Belits</author>
	<datestamp>1264527420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lawyers' associations wouldn't be worth squat if they didn't pass the laws prohibiting law practice by everyone else, thus effectively banning law education of the general population. Considering that politicians are usually lawyers (who left it to themselves to generate laws that can't be interpreted by a non-lawyer), this is more like a modern form of aristocracy than actual professional association.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lawyers ' associations would n't be worth squat if they did n't pass the laws prohibiting law practice by everyone else , thus effectively banning law education of the general population .
Considering that politicians are usually lawyers ( who left it to themselves to generate laws that ca n't be interpreted by a non-lawyer ) , this is more like a modern form of aristocracy than actual professional association .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lawyers' associations wouldn't be worth squat if they didn't pass the laws prohibiting law practice by everyone else, thus effectively banning law education of the general population.
Considering that politicians are usually lawyers (who left it to themselves to generate laws that can't be interpreted by a non-lawyer), this is more like a modern form of aristocracy than actual professional association.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905538</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904520</id>
	<title>Re:Listen to the suits</title>
	<author>dcollins</author>
	<datestamp>1264521960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Work at a company who's business is technology, which is still run by a techie. Make sure to leave once the suits take over."</p><p>Excellent advice, wish I could mod it up more. Probably the hardest one for a young worker to grok, considering that the very first piece of boilerplate the suits will utter will be, "We don't expect to make any changes here at all!". See, they know the game too, and are playing the other side of it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Work at a company who 's business is technology , which is still run by a techie .
Make sure to leave once the suits take over .
" Excellent advice , wish I could mod it up more .
Probably the hardest one for a young worker to grok , considering that the very first piece of boilerplate the suits will utter will be , " We do n't expect to make any changes here at all ! " .
See , they know the game too , and are playing the other side of it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Work at a company who's business is technology, which is still run by a techie.
Make sure to leave once the suits take over.
"Excellent advice, wish I could mod it up more.
Probably the hardest one for a young worker to grok, considering that the very first piece of boilerplate the suits will utter will be, "We don't expect to make any changes here at all!".
See, they know the game too, and are playing the other side of it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904418</id>
	<title>There are a LOT of variables here</title>
	<author>uarch</author>
	<datestamp>1264521600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are LOT of variables here.  In some cases you absolutely cannot expect to make that much to start.  In others you can expect that much or more.</p><p>I won't get into specifics but we've recently spent a few months trying to hire some recent grads &amp; experienced candidates.<br>- In a few cases we lost experienced candidates because their company (which was already paying them well above the salaries listed here) threw even more money at them to keep them on board.<br>- Countless recent grads had already accepted offers above the range we're talking about here.  One recent Masters grad was considering an offer from us that was above those listed in the story when he suddenly received a higher offer from a competitor.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are LOT of variables here .
In some cases you absolutely can not expect to make that much to start .
In others you can expect that much or more.I wo n't get into specifics but we 've recently spent a few months trying to hire some recent grads &amp; experienced candidates.- In a few cases we lost experienced candidates because their company ( which was already paying them well above the salaries listed here ) threw even more money at them to keep them on board.- Countless recent grads had already accepted offers above the range we 're talking about here .
One recent Masters grad was considering an offer from us that was above those listed in the story when he suddenly received a higher offer from a competitor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are LOT of variables here.
In some cases you absolutely cannot expect to make that much to start.
In others you can expect that much or more.I won't get into specifics but we've recently spent a few months trying to hire some recent grads &amp; experienced candidates.- In a few cases we lost experienced candidates because their company (which was already paying them well above the salaries listed here) threw even more money at them to keep them on board.- Countless recent grads had already accepted offers above the range we're talking about here.
One recent Masters grad was considering an offer from us that was above those listed in the story when he suddenly received a higher offer from a competitor.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906964</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264531320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's another reality: it's really, really hard to manage projects <b>remotely</b>. I have tried this for a number of projects, and have learned the following things:</p><ul>
<li> A day before the deadline, <b>John</b> will ask for more time</li><li> Halfway through the project, <b>John</b> will ask for more money</li><li> <b>John</b> will not give the source, as was agreed</li><li> <b>John</b> will not use unit tests, or Subversion, as was agreed</li><li> <b>John</b> cannot be bothered to provide an estimate or a planning</li><li> <b>John</b> will take on other projects and give priority to those before yours</li><li> <b>John</b> actually has a day job and just does projects on the side</li><li> <b>John</b> will tell you he takes a holiday for three weeks, starting tomorrow</li><li> <b>John</b> has a wedding of a brother, a pregnant sister, a sick father, etc and cannot make the planning</li><li> <b>John</b> will ask for more money at the end of the project</li><li> <b>John</b> cannot be reached because he lost his mobile</li><li> <b>John</b> cannot be reached because his mobile was stolen</li><li> <b>John</b> cannot be reached because his mobile its battery is empty</li><li> <b>John</b> cannot be reached because the e-mail server is down</li><li> <b>John</b> cannot be reached because the internet is down</li></ul><p>Not that I disagree entirely that it may be more difficult to manage someone in India, and I've certainly heard horror stories, but come on.  These could all be applied to just about any remote contractor who isn't worth their salt.  I have worked with/currently work with plenty of Indians who really knew/know their stuff.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's another reality : it 's really , really hard to manage projects remotely .
I have tried this for a number of projects , and have learned the following things : A day before the deadline , John will ask for more time Halfway through the project , John will ask for more money John will not give the source , as was agreed John will not use unit tests , or Subversion , as was agreed John can not be bothered to provide an estimate or a planning John will take on other projects and give priority to those before yours John actually has a day job and just does projects on the side John will tell you he takes a holiday for three weeks , starting tomorrow John has a wedding of a brother , a pregnant sister , a sick father , etc and can not make the planning John will ask for more money at the end of the project John can not be reached because he lost his mobile John can not be reached because his mobile was stolen John can not be reached because his mobile its battery is empty John can not be reached because the e-mail server is down John can not be reached because the internet is downNot that I disagree entirely that it may be more difficult to manage someone in India , and I 've certainly heard horror stories , but come on .
These could all be applied to just about any remote contractor who is n't worth their salt .
I have worked with/currently work with plenty of Indians who really knew/know their stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's another reality: it's really, really hard to manage projects remotely.
I have tried this for a number of projects, and have learned the following things:
 A day before the deadline, John will ask for more time Halfway through the project, John will ask for more money John will not give the source, as was agreed John will not use unit tests, or Subversion, as was agreed John cannot be bothered to provide an estimate or a planning John will take on other projects and give priority to those before yours John actually has a day job and just does projects on the side John will tell you he takes a holiday for three weeks, starting tomorrow John has a wedding of a brother, a pregnant sister, a sick father, etc and cannot make the planning John will ask for more money at the end of the project John cannot be reached because he lost his mobile John cannot be reached because his mobile was stolen John cannot be reached because his mobile its battery is empty John cannot be reached because the e-mail server is down John cannot be reached because the internet is downNot that I disagree entirely that it may be more difficult to manage someone in India, and I've certainly heard horror stories, but come on.
These could all be applied to just about any remote contractor who isn't worth their salt.
I have worked with/currently work with plenty of Indians who really knew/know their stuff.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905742</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903664</id>
	<title>grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>upuv</author>
	<datestamp>1264518840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If we are speaking strictly about programming then I can't see a difference in earning for those levels of education.</p><p>Personally I would never ever higher a phd for a programing role.  I'm hard pressed to higher a grad student.  Why?  To specialized already lacking the breadth knowledge that most industries now require.</p><p>Also add to that, that almost every educational institution on the planet has watered down the comp sci type degrees so that they can pump out graduates.  The overall quality of graduates is falling rapidly.  Masters and phd graduates are even worse.   They expect more money than I make day 1 and still haven't the faintest clue what the company does.</p><p>If you go to an interview at least google the damn company and find out what they do.</p><p>I can believe 54,000 grand.  I can't believe 100,000 grand.  Of course there is some super nerd that is going to get that.   Same guy that wrecked the curve in class.</p><p>I think in general the hangover of the recession will mean that the industries are going to be a lot more picky about who they higher and pay them less relatively.  If you are good at "programming" then you will make good money.  I can't really cook.  I can make a few good dishes.  But I am not going to be pulling down a 6-7 figure salary doing it.  I might make a 40k range kinda wage cooking cause that is my ability / skill level.  Same goes for programming.  I see it every day.  You can spot the good ones from a mile off.  You can also spot the bad ones.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If we are speaking strictly about programming then I ca n't see a difference in earning for those levels of education.Personally I would never ever higher a phd for a programing role .
I 'm hard pressed to higher a grad student .
Why ? To specialized already lacking the breadth knowledge that most industries now require.Also add to that , that almost every educational institution on the planet has watered down the comp sci type degrees so that they can pump out graduates .
The overall quality of graduates is falling rapidly .
Masters and phd graduates are even worse .
They expect more money than I make day 1 and still have n't the faintest clue what the company does.If you go to an interview at least google the damn company and find out what they do.I can believe 54,000 grand .
I ca n't believe 100,000 grand .
Of course there is some super nerd that is going to get that .
Same guy that wrecked the curve in class.I think in general the hangover of the recession will mean that the industries are going to be a lot more picky about who they higher and pay them less relatively .
If you are good at " programming " then you will make good money .
I ca n't really cook .
I can make a few good dishes .
But I am not going to be pulling down a 6-7 figure salary doing it .
I might make a 40k range kinda wage cooking cause that is my ability / skill level .
Same goes for programming .
I see it every day .
You can spot the good ones from a mile off .
You can also spot the bad ones .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If we are speaking strictly about programming then I can't see a difference in earning for those levels of education.Personally I would never ever higher a phd for a programing role.
I'm hard pressed to higher a grad student.
Why?  To specialized already lacking the breadth knowledge that most industries now require.Also add to that, that almost every educational institution on the planet has watered down the comp sci type degrees so that they can pump out graduates.
The overall quality of graduates is falling rapidly.
Masters and phd graduates are even worse.
They expect more money than I make day 1 and still haven't the faintest clue what the company does.If you go to an interview at least google the damn company and find out what they do.I can believe 54,000 grand.
I can't believe 100,000 grand.
Of course there is some super nerd that is going to get that.
Same guy that wrecked the curve in class.I think in general the hangover of the recession will mean that the industries are going to be a lot more picky about who they higher and pay them less relatively.
If you are good at "programming" then you will make good money.
I can't really cook.
I can make a few good dishes.
But I am not going to be pulling down a 6-7 figure salary doing it.
I might make a 40k range kinda wage cooking cause that is my ability / skill level.
Same goes for programming.
I see it every day.
You can spot the good ones from a mile off.
You can also spot the bad ones.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907828</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>pnutjam</author>
	<datestamp>1264534860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>sounds familiar, but I only got an overpriced AS.  I'm hitting my stride now.</htmltext>
<tokenext>sounds familiar , but I only got an overpriced AS .
I 'm hitting my stride now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>sounds familiar, but I only got an overpriced AS.
I'm hitting my stride now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908216</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264536240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Meh. We get these "blah blah CS should be a trade school" posts in every programming thread. Usually combined with the naive view that every CS grad from every school is identical, rather than there being good and bad schools with good and bad students.</p><p>Of course, if you're hiring 2-year community college grads, or degree mill grads, or the ones who cruised through on a B- or lower (and haven't had any positive real world experience, internships at least, to fill in the gaps), well, yeah, you're going to have problems. Every field is like that, tech is no exception.</p><p>If you're hiring decent students from full CS colleges, then it's pretty much mandatory for them to have done a lot in one "modern" language (usually Java these days) and had at least one architecture class (which will have had programming assignments in some kind of assembly, usually RISC these days but some schools still do it in x86); most will have also had some functional programming class (often in Scheme, which is good stuff, but really you could cover much of the same content in other languages like, say, python). My point is, *those* students will pick up C extremely quickly even if they've never seen it before, since they've got the assembly foundation and are already familiar with the general syntax. That's one of the many benefits of actually getting the full breadth of a CS degree instead of a few very specific "How to do X" classes.</p><p>If they're all complaining about coding conventions, process, and testing, then you're not drawing from the schools with the mandatory software engineering class. (I assume those three items aren't actually screwed up, or you'd be ranting more about your dysfunctional company and not about the new hires). I would recommend 1) revising your company's interview questions, since "have you ever taken [class]?" and "briefly explain quicksort in words" would filter out an awful lot of problems. And 2) CS departments tend to have community feedback opportunities. Be the guy who goes to those and tells them what worked and what didn't. (I know my school does those, and the waves of tech managers coming in bragging about how the ones who took the high level theory classes and software engineering class make awesome employees has definitely shaped the curriculum in the past few years).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Meh .
We get these " blah blah CS should be a trade school " posts in every programming thread .
Usually combined with the naive view that every CS grad from every school is identical , rather than there being good and bad schools with good and bad students.Of course , if you 're hiring 2-year community college grads , or degree mill grads , or the ones who cruised through on a B- or lower ( and have n't had any positive real world experience , internships at least , to fill in the gaps ) , well , yeah , you 're going to have problems .
Every field is like that , tech is no exception.If you 're hiring decent students from full CS colleges , then it 's pretty much mandatory for them to have done a lot in one " modern " language ( usually Java these days ) and had at least one architecture class ( which will have had programming assignments in some kind of assembly , usually RISC these days but some schools still do it in x86 ) ; most will have also had some functional programming class ( often in Scheme , which is good stuff , but really you could cover much of the same content in other languages like , say , python ) .
My point is , * those * students will pick up C extremely quickly even if they 've never seen it before , since they 've got the assembly foundation and are already familiar with the general syntax .
That 's one of the many benefits of actually getting the full breadth of a CS degree instead of a few very specific " How to do X " classes.If they 're all complaining about coding conventions , process , and testing , then you 're not drawing from the schools with the mandatory software engineering class .
( I assume those three items are n't actually screwed up , or you 'd be ranting more about your dysfunctional company and not about the new hires ) .
I would recommend 1 ) revising your company 's interview questions , since " have you ever taken [ class ] ?
" and " briefly explain quicksort in words " would filter out an awful lot of problems .
And 2 ) CS departments tend to have community feedback opportunities .
Be the guy who goes to those and tells them what worked and what did n't .
( I know my school does those , and the waves of tech managers coming in bragging about how the ones who took the high level theory classes and software engineering class make awesome employees has definitely shaped the curriculum in the past few years ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Meh.
We get these "blah blah CS should be a trade school" posts in every programming thread.
Usually combined with the naive view that every CS grad from every school is identical, rather than there being good and bad schools with good and bad students.Of course, if you're hiring 2-year community college grads, or degree mill grads, or the ones who cruised through on a B- or lower (and haven't had any positive real world experience, internships at least, to fill in the gaps), well, yeah, you're going to have problems.
Every field is like that, tech is no exception.If you're hiring decent students from full CS colleges, then it's pretty much mandatory for them to have done a lot in one "modern" language (usually Java these days) and had at least one architecture class (which will have had programming assignments in some kind of assembly, usually RISC these days but some schools still do it in x86); most will have also had some functional programming class (often in Scheme, which is good stuff, but really you could cover much of the same content in other languages like, say, python).
My point is, *those* students will pick up C extremely quickly even if they've never seen it before, since they've got the assembly foundation and are already familiar with the general syntax.
That's one of the many benefits of actually getting the full breadth of a CS degree instead of a few very specific "How to do X" classes.If they're all complaining about coding conventions, process, and testing, then you're not drawing from the schools with the mandatory software engineering class.
(I assume those three items aren't actually screwed up, or you'd be ranting more about your dysfunctional company and not about the new hires).
I would recommend 1) revising your company's interview questions, since "have you ever taken [class]?
" and "briefly explain quicksort in words" would filter out an awful lot of problems.
And 2) CS departments tend to have community feedback opportunities.
Be the guy who goes to those and tells them what worked and what didn't.
(I know my school does those, and the waves of tech managers coming in bragging about how the ones who took the high level theory classes and software engineering class make awesome employees has definitely shaped the curriculum in the past few years).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903926</id>
	<title>Buy your own dev tools?</title>
	<author>gatkinso</author>
	<datestamp>1264519980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have never seen this for regular employees, and I have been in this game for 19 years.</p><p>If this were true, then kiss Visual Studio, Flex, Rational, Clear Case, (the list goes on) good bye.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have never seen this for regular employees , and I have been in this game for 19 years.If this were true , then kiss Visual Studio , Flex , Rational , Clear Case , ( the list goes on ) good bye .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have never seen this for regular employees, and I have been in this game for 19 years.If this were true, then kiss Visual Studio, Flex, Rational, Clear Case, (the list goes on) good bye.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904648</id>
	<title>Mod Parent Up</title>
	<author>thepooh81</author>
	<datestamp>1264522380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is why there's a difference. I have a degree in software engineering and that's what my job is. I started out above the average paygrade with a BS since I also worked a lot on some OSS that I could show my employer.</p><p>If you sit back, get a technical degree and expect a high starting salary reality is going to hurt. If you work your ass off, volunteer on something outside of school then yeah you can expect a good starting salary.</p><p>Believe it or not, most software engineers make good money, programmers on the other hand are hired by Walmart to be code monkeys (not joking, Walmart hires a lot of programmers).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is why there 's a difference .
I have a degree in software engineering and that 's what my job is .
I started out above the average paygrade with a BS since I also worked a lot on some OSS that I could show my employer.If you sit back , get a technical degree and expect a high starting salary reality is going to hurt .
If you work your ass off , volunteer on something outside of school then yeah you can expect a good starting salary.Believe it or not , most software engineers make good money , programmers on the other hand are hired by Walmart to be code monkeys ( not joking , Walmart hires a lot of programmers ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is why there's a difference.
I have a degree in software engineering and that's what my job is.
I started out above the average paygrade with a BS since I also worked a lot on some OSS that I could show my employer.If you sit back, get a technical degree and expect a high starting salary reality is going to hurt.
If you work your ass off, volunteer on something outside of school then yeah you can expect a good starting salary.Believe it or not, most software engineers make good money, programmers on the other hand are hired by Walmart to be code monkeys (not joking, Walmart hires a lot of programmers).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903590</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903426</id>
	<title>No.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264517880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That is all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That is all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30911204</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>nahdude812</author>
	<datestamp>1264506540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Without being as bitter about it as you seem to be, I'll agree.  Many of the PhD students / holders I have known are actually mostly just people who weren't really sure what the next step was going to be for themselves when they got to the end of their undergrad career.  Remaining in academia was easier for them than trying to enter the next phase of their life.  Some of them then remain in academia as professors, so they never really experience what the rest of us consider normal life (not that there's anything wrong with that - I wish I possessed exactly the right mix of motivation and apathy which seems to have gotten most professors where they are).</p><p>That's not to say this is true of every PhD student.  It's just that you need to be of reasonable intelligence, and willing to dedicate a lot of time to it.  Those are really the only requirements - it really doesn't require exceptional intelligence like it once did, just time.</p><p>My work experience with PhDs has lead me to the conclusion that most of them are good at philosophizing about their field of study, but few really possess any real capacity to accomplish much outside of theory.  If what you need in a new hire is a theory person, then this is probably right for you.  If you need a pragmatist or real producer of tangible work product, then seeing a PhD on the resume should make you hesitate.</p><p>To go anecdotal, just today a friend was lamenting to me how difficult he finds it working with the PhDs at his company.  They rejected the approach his team was taking toward a super high volume proxy for a particular kind of data as being ideologically incorrect, and built their own competing product.  The undergrad team produced software capable of handling 50,000 connections <em>per second</em>, while the PhDs could handle at most 1 or 2 thousand on the same hardware.  The same team had previously experienced problems where software written by the PhDs was broadcasting data in a deprecated format.  The PhDs refused to believe that their software was wrong, and insisted that my friend's team was the source of the disconnect.  It took several months of his team translating the deprecated data format to the new data format before the PhD team quietly announced (not to his group) that their software had not been updating correctly for the past few months.</p><p>I know, anecdotes do not a rule make, but it's pretty consistent with my own experience as well.  There are some firecracker PhDs out there, you can often easily distinguish them from the lamers because of the prominence of their insistence on recognition of their education.  The good PhDs don't jam it down everyone's throat, while the bad ones use it as a form of appeal to authority (i.e. don't question me, I'm a PhD, you've only got a bachelors, etc).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Without being as bitter about it as you seem to be , I 'll agree .
Many of the PhD students / holders I have known are actually mostly just people who were n't really sure what the next step was going to be for themselves when they got to the end of their undergrad career .
Remaining in academia was easier for them than trying to enter the next phase of their life .
Some of them then remain in academia as professors , so they never really experience what the rest of us consider normal life ( not that there 's anything wrong with that - I wish I possessed exactly the right mix of motivation and apathy which seems to have gotten most professors where they are ) .That 's not to say this is true of every PhD student .
It 's just that you need to be of reasonable intelligence , and willing to dedicate a lot of time to it .
Those are really the only requirements - it really does n't require exceptional intelligence like it once did , just time.My work experience with PhDs has lead me to the conclusion that most of them are good at philosophizing about their field of study , but few really possess any real capacity to accomplish much outside of theory .
If what you need in a new hire is a theory person , then this is probably right for you .
If you need a pragmatist or real producer of tangible work product , then seeing a PhD on the resume should make you hesitate.To go anecdotal , just today a friend was lamenting to me how difficult he finds it working with the PhDs at his company .
They rejected the approach his team was taking toward a super high volume proxy for a particular kind of data as being ideologically incorrect , and built their own competing product .
The undergrad team produced software capable of handling 50,000 connections per second , while the PhDs could handle at most 1 or 2 thousand on the same hardware .
The same team had previously experienced problems where software written by the PhDs was broadcasting data in a deprecated format .
The PhDs refused to believe that their software was wrong , and insisted that my friend 's team was the source of the disconnect .
It took several months of his team translating the deprecated data format to the new data format before the PhD team quietly announced ( not to his group ) that their software had not been updating correctly for the past few months.I know , anecdotes do not a rule make , but it 's pretty consistent with my own experience as well .
There are some firecracker PhDs out there , you can often easily distinguish them from the lamers because of the prominence of their insistence on recognition of their education .
The good PhDs do n't jam it down everyone 's throat , while the bad ones use it as a form of appeal to authority ( i.e .
do n't question me , I 'm a PhD , you 've only got a bachelors , etc ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Without being as bitter about it as you seem to be, I'll agree.
Many of the PhD students / holders I have known are actually mostly just people who weren't really sure what the next step was going to be for themselves when they got to the end of their undergrad career.
Remaining in academia was easier for them than trying to enter the next phase of their life.
Some of them then remain in academia as professors, so they never really experience what the rest of us consider normal life (not that there's anything wrong with that - I wish I possessed exactly the right mix of motivation and apathy which seems to have gotten most professors where they are).That's not to say this is true of every PhD student.
It's just that you need to be of reasonable intelligence, and willing to dedicate a lot of time to it.
Those are really the only requirements - it really doesn't require exceptional intelligence like it once did, just time.My work experience with PhDs has lead me to the conclusion that most of them are good at philosophizing about their field of study, but few really possess any real capacity to accomplish much outside of theory.
If what you need in a new hire is a theory person, then this is probably right for you.
If you need a pragmatist or real producer of tangible work product, then seeing a PhD on the resume should make you hesitate.To go anecdotal, just today a friend was lamenting to me how difficult he finds it working with the PhDs at his company.
They rejected the approach his team was taking toward a super high volume proxy for a particular kind of data as being ideologically incorrect, and built their own competing product.
The undergrad team produced software capable of handling 50,000 connections per second, while the PhDs could handle at most 1 or 2 thousand on the same hardware.
The same team had previously experienced problems where software written by the PhDs was broadcasting data in a deprecated format.
The PhDs refused to believe that their software was wrong, and insisted that my friend's team was the source of the disconnect.
It took several months of his team translating the deprecated data format to the new data format before the PhD team quietly announced (not to his group) that their software had not been updating correctly for the past few months.I know, anecdotes do not a rule make, but it's pretty consistent with my own experience as well.
There are some firecracker PhDs out there, you can often easily distinguish them from the lamers because of the prominence of their insistence on recognition of their education.
The good PhDs don't jam it down everyone's throat, while the bad ones use it as a form of appeal to authority (i.e.
don't question me, I'm a PhD, you've only got a bachelors, etc).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908698</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906028</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>defaria</author>
	<datestamp>1264527540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>By 1989 I was making over $60k year. That's 20 years ago! If you can't make over $60K year today with decent programming skills then either you are not very good or not very aggressive and should consider a different career.</htmltext>
<tokenext>By 1989 I was making over $ 60k year .
That 's 20 years ago !
If you ca n't make over $ 60K year today with decent programming skills then either you are not very good or not very aggressive and should consider a different career .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>By 1989 I was making over $60k year.
That's 20 years ago!
If you can't make over $60K year today with decent programming skills then either you are not very good or not very aggressive and should consider a different career.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903562</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Just Brew It!</author>
	<datestamp>1264518480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Amateur night" object oriented systems are impossible to maintain, and Sharepoint is a train wreck. But you're right - as non-programmers increasingly come to view software as "easy", it devalues the profession.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Amateur night " object oriented systems are impossible to maintain , and Sharepoint is a train wreck .
But you 're right - as non-programmers increasingly come to view software as " easy " , it devalues the profession .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Amateur night" object oriented systems are impossible to maintain, and Sharepoint is a train wreck.
But you're right - as non-programmers increasingly come to view software as "easy", it devalues the profession.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903484</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30912500</id>
	<title>Re:no-hire and non-compete agreements</title>
	<author>CodeBuster</author>
	<datestamp>1264515300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I think we need to severly limit what kind of restrictions companies can place on their employees' future job prospects.</p></div><p>One of the reasons why Silicon Valley (i.e. the Palo Alto area) was and is so successful is that non-competes are basically impossible to enforce in the State of California. Thus, the barriers to switching jobs, even to a direct competitor, are lowered. This probably tends to attract more talented people than would otherwise be the case. California has other problems to be sure, but this is one of the bright spots; at least for tech workers.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think we need to severly limit what kind of restrictions companies can place on their employees ' future job prospects.One of the reasons why Silicon Valley ( i.e .
the Palo Alto area ) was and is so successful is that non-competes are basically impossible to enforce in the State of California .
Thus , the barriers to switching jobs , even to a direct competitor , are lowered .
This probably tends to attract more talented people than would otherwise be the case .
California has other problems to be sure , but this is one of the bright spots ; at least for tech workers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think we need to severly limit what kind of restrictions companies can place on their employees' future job prospects.One of the reasons why Silicon Valley (i.e.
the Palo Alto area) was and is so successful is that non-competes are basically impossible to enforce in the State of California.
Thus, the barriers to switching jobs, even to a direct competitor, are lowered.
This probably tends to attract more talented people than would otherwise be the case.
California has other problems to be sure, but this is one of the bright spots; at least for tech workers.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906140</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264527960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Money is not the reason to choose computer programming as a career.</p><p>Or any other career for that matter . . . do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money . . . ?"</p></div><p>Uhh, the scary part is that there are way more doctors than programmers that are in it only for the money.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Money is not the reason to choose computer programming as a career.Or any other career for that matter .
. .
do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon , who is , " in it for the money .
. .
? " Uhh , the scary part is that there are way more doctors than programmers that are in it only for the money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Money is not the reason to choose computer programming as a career.Or any other career for that matter .
. .
do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money .
. .
?"Uhh, the scary part is that there are way more doctors than programmers that are in it only for the money.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907258</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>sp3d2orbit</author>
	<datestamp>1264532400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not to make you feel bad but I started college at the same time, start at close to 50k on graduation and have made a 20\% increase in salary every single year since then (not going to say my income but solve 50k * 1.2^6). Maybe you should reexamine the technologies you are studying.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not to make you feel bad but I started college at the same time , start at close to 50k on graduation and have made a 20 \ % increase in salary every single year since then ( not going to say my income but solve 50k * 1.2 ^ 6 ) .
Maybe you should reexamine the technologies you are studying .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not to make you feel bad but I started college at the same time, start at close to 50k on graduation and have made a 20\% increase in salary every single year since then (not going to say my income but solve 50k * 1.2^6).
Maybe you should reexamine the technologies you are studying.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909200</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264497480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I disagree. It all depends on the caliber of programmer you are. Like any other profession, there will be workers who suck and workers who excel.</p><p>I was making $40/hr before I even finished my degree and I would definitely say it's been an "easy-street ticket".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I disagree .
It all depends on the caliber of programmer you are .
Like any other profession , there will be workers who suck and workers who excel.I was making $ 40/hr before I even finished my degree and I would definitely say it 's been an " easy-street ticket " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I disagree.
It all depends on the caliber of programmer you are.
Like any other profession, there will be workers who suck and workers who excel.I was making $40/hr before I even finished my degree and I would definitely say it's been an "easy-street ticket".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903942</id>
	<title>Re:Depends....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264520040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ahhh, yes. The never-ending humor in seeing position solicitations where the job-skills requirements include 3 or more years of experience with a product that's only been available for six months. At least it gives you an easy way to filter out the companies that don't care enough to have HR pay attention to the people who try to tell them what they actually <b>need</b> in a new hire, rather than just pasting keywords into a boilerplate ad.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ahhh , yes .
The never-ending humor in seeing position solicitations where the job-skills requirements include 3 or more years of experience with a product that 's only been available for six months .
At least it gives you an easy way to filter out the companies that do n't care enough to have HR pay attention to the people who try to tell them what they actually need in a new hire , rather than just pasting keywords into a boilerplate ad .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ahhh, yes.
The never-ending humor in seeing position solicitations where the job-skills requirements include 3 or more years of experience with a product that's only been available for six months.
At least it gives you an easy way to filter out the companies that don't care enough to have HR pay attention to the people who try to tell them what they actually need in a new hire, rather than just pasting keywords into a boilerplate ad.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904466</id>
	<title>Re:Programmer, or full out software engineer?</title>
	<author>Fujisawa Sensei</author>
	<datestamp>1264521780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I think the big difference here is that the article says 'Computer Science BS graduates', which I consider similar to my school.  Then the summary goes nuts about 'programmers', which I think are different than computer science.  People tend to think of programmers as the guys that just code, which of course would make them less valuable and more replaceable than full blows software engineers.



High school kids and anyone who spends two years at a technical school can 'program' nowadays, but coming up with a proper design is something people are still willing to pay for.</p></div><p>I see plenty of 'fire and forget' designers who can't code, nor can they design.  They're just good at selling people that they can design; then the people who can do both actually have to clean up the mess.  When the project is successful, the management rewards the bozos who did the lame design to begin with; after holding the people who actually made it work accountable for the success or failure.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the big difference here is that the article says 'Computer Science BS graduates ' , which I consider similar to my school .
Then the summary goes nuts about 'programmers ' , which I think are different than computer science .
People tend to think of programmers as the guys that just code , which of course would make them less valuable and more replaceable than full blows software engineers .
High school kids and anyone who spends two years at a technical school can 'program ' nowadays , but coming up with a proper design is something people are still willing to pay for.I see plenty of 'fire and forget ' designers who ca n't code , nor can they design .
They 're just good at selling people that they can design ; then the people who can do both actually have to clean up the mess .
When the project is successful , the management rewards the bozos who did the lame design to begin with ; after holding the people who actually made it work accountable for the success or failure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the big difference here is that the article says 'Computer Science BS graduates', which I consider similar to my school.
Then the summary goes nuts about 'programmers', which I think are different than computer science.
People tend to think of programmers as the guys that just code, which of course would make them less valuable and more replaceable than full blows software engineers.
High school kids and anyone who spends two years at a technical school can 'program' nowadays, but coming up with a proper design is something people are still willing to pay for.I see plenty of 'fire and forget' designers who can't code, nor can they design.
They're just good at selling people that they can design; then the people who can do both actually have to clean up the mess.
When the project is successful, the management rewards the bozos who did the lame design to begin with; after holding the people who actually made it work accountable for the success or failure.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903744</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909796</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>rantingkitten</author>
	<datestamp>1264500000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money . . . ?"</i> <br>
<br>
As opposed to someone who is doing it for the love of cutting people?  Yeah.</htmltext>
<tokenext>do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon , who is , " in it for the money .
. .
? " As opposed to someone who is doing it for the love of cutting people ?
Yeah .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money .
. .
?" 

As opposed to someone who is doing it for the love of cutting people?
Yeah.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907980</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264535400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>South Carolina frankly doesn't have many CS jobs. That's why I left.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>South Carolina frankly does n't have many CS jobs .
That 's why I left .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>South Carolina frankly doesn't have many CS jobs.
That's why I left.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906174</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>cgenman</author>
	<datestamp>1264528140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is time that Java was taught at the Jr. High School level.  You wouldn't start a mathematics undergrad in college on pre-algebra, and you really shouldn't have to teach a college student a fucking for loop.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is time that Java was taught at the Jr. High School level .
You would n't start a mathematics undergrad in college on pre-algebra , and you really should n't have to teach a college student a fucking for loop .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is time that Java was taught at the Jr. High School level.
You wouldn't start a mathematics undergrad in college on pre-algebra, and you really shouldn't have to teach a college student a fucking for loop.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909510</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1264498860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>$50,000 a year (especially in your state) would have been like Monopoly money for me when I graduated college (had I been able to get a job that paid that much in 1993 money).</p><p>I think what is lost in this conversation is that $50k is a ton of money for a single 22 year old graduate with zero work experience.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 50,000 a year ( especially in your state ) would have been like Monopoly money for me when I graduated college ( had I been able to get a job that paid that much in 1993 money ) .I think what is lost in this conversation is that $ 50k is a ton of money for a single 22 year old graduate with zero work experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$50,000 a year (especially in your state) would have been like Monopoly money for me when I graduated college (had I been able to get a job that paid that much in 1993 money).I think what is lost in this conversation is that $50k is a ton of money for a single 22 year old graduate with zero work experience.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906044</id>
	<title>Re:We are becoming more disposable</title>
	<author>inKubus</author>
	<datestamp>1264527600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unions are just one more tool for the wealthy to suck money from the working man's pocket.  But I'm a senior developer, I don't consider myself a "working man".  That's why we need to form a professional cabal like the doctors and the lawyers have.  We need to set prices across the board higher.  Until that happens, wages in this most important of fields will continue to erode.  You aren't competing with the programmer in the next desk for money.  You and him (or her) are both on the same side competing against the useless human labor pool that you're deperately trying to replace with software and robots.  Of course, if you succeed, the CEO gets a bonus but it's your job so you don't get ANYTHING.  No!  We need to be getting a cut of the money saved by the jobs we eliminate!  Stop working yourself out of a job if you want more money!  Break something today and make sure something stays broken so I have a job waiting there after you leave!  If we could all do this for each other, starting today, I can see a huge rise in IT salaries in the next 12 months.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unions are just one more tool for the wealthy to suck money from the working man 's pocket .
But I 'm a senior developer , I do n't consider myself a " working man " .
That 's why we need to form a professional cabal like the doctors and the lawyers have .
We need to set prices across the board higher .
Until that happens , wages in this most important of fields will continue to erode .
You are n't competing with the programmer in the next desk for money .
You and him ( or her ) are both on the same side competing against the useless human labor pool that you 're deperately trying to replace with software and robots .
Of course , if you succeed , the CEO gets a bonus but it 's your job so you do n't get ANYTHING .
No ! We need to be getting a cut of the money saved by the jobs we eliminate !
Stop working yourself out of a job if you want more money !
Break something today and make sure something stays broken so I have a job waiting there after you leave !
If we could all do this for each other , starting today , I can see a huge rise in IT salaries in the next 12 months .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unions are just one more tool for the wealthy to suck money from the working man's pocket.
But I'm a senior developer, I don't consider myself a "working man".
That's why we need to form a professional cabal like the doctors and the lawyers have.
We need to set prices across the board higher.
Until that happens, wages in this most important of fields will continue to erode.
You aren't competing with the programmer in the next desk for money.
You and him (or her) are both on the same side competing against the useless human labor pool that you're deperately trying to replace with software and robots.
Of course, if you succeed, the CEO gets a bonus but it's your job so you don't get ANYTHING.
No!  We need to be getting a cut of the money saved by the jobs we eliminate!
Stop working yourself out of a job if you want more money!
Break something today and make sure something stays broken so I have a job waiting there after you leave!
If we could all do this for each other, starting today, I can see a huge rise in IT salaries in the next 12 months.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903728</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</id>
	<title>If you're in it for the money, do something else</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264519800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I had a co-op student once, who obviously had no affinity for programming . . . or, more to the point, no affinity for computers in general. (This was back in the 80's, before PCs were as pervasive as now).
</p><p>I really couldn't understand why he was torturing himself with a degree program, which he didn't like, so I asked him why he chose computer science.  The answer:
</p><p>"I heard that I will be able to make a lot of money in this field."
</p><p>Money is not the reason to choose computer programming as a career.
</p><p>Or any other career for that matter . . . do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money . . . ?"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I had a co-op student once , who obviously had no affinity for programming .
. .
or , more to the point , no affinity for computers in general .
( This was back in the 80 's , before PCs were as pervasive as now ) .
I really could n't understand why he was torturing himself with a degree program , which he did n't like , so I asked him why he chose computer science .
The answer : " I heard that I will be able to make a lot of money in this field .
" Money is not the reason to choose computer programming as a career .
Or any other career for that matter .
. .
do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon , who is , " in it for the money .
. .
? "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had a co-op student once, who obviously had no affinity for programming .
. .
or, more to the point, no affinity for computers in general.
(This was back in the 80's, before PCs were as pervasive as now).
I really couldn't understand why he was torturing himself with a degree program, which he didn't like, so I asked him why he chose computer science.
The answer:
"I heard that I will be able to make a lot of money in this field.
"
Money is not the reason to choose computer programming as a career.
Or any other career for that matter .
. .
do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money .
. .
?"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908102</id>
	<title>Re:Location, Location, Location</title>
	<author>infinite9</author>
	<datestamp>1264535820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>banks pay less than almost everyone</i> </p><p>I have exactly the opposite experience.  The banks in chicago routinely pay $20k higher salaries and an extra $10 an hour contract rates compared other businesses.  I'm not sure if it's because of the work that's done there, or because they're downtown vs the suburbs.  But in my experience, this is true for every bank out there except for one:  JP Morgan Chase.  They seem to think they're so awesome that a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.net architect will come to work for them for $35 an hour.  Hey JP Morgan Chace, suck it!  How's that working out for you?  I wonder how many time bombs are in your code and how many of your developers will leave in a few months when the numbers on dice increase again.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>banks pay less than almost everyone I have exactly the opposite experience .
The banks in chicago routinely pay $ 20k higher salaries and an extra $ 10 an hour contract rates compared other businesses .
I 'm not sure if it 's because of the work that 's done there , or because they 're downtown vs the suburbs .
But in my experience , this is true for every bank out there except for one : JP Morgan Chase .
They seem to think they 're so awesome that a .net architect will come to work for them for $ 35 an hour .
Hey JP Morgan Chace , suck it !
How 's that working out for you ?
I wonder how many time bombs are in your code and how many of your developers will leave in a few months when the numbers on dice increase again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>banks pay less than almost everyone I have exactly the opposite experience.
The banks in chicago routinely pay $20k higher salaries and an extra $10 an hour contract rates compared other businesses.
I'm not sure if it's because of the work that's done there, or because they're downtown vs the suburbs.
But in my experience, this is true for every bank out there except for one:  JP Morgan Chase.
They seem to think they're so awesome that a .net architect will come to work for them for $35 an hour.
Hey JP Morgan Chace, suck it!
How's that working out for you?
I wonder how many time bombs are in your code and how many of your developers will leave in a few months when the numbers on dice increase again.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903860</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907030</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>GodfatherofSoul</author>
	<datestamp>1264531500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Let me guess, you never got over that OOP conceptual hurdle.  Pretty silly to suggest that OOP is the problem with any system.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Let me guess , you never got over that OOP conceptual hurdle .
Pretty silly to suggest that OOP is the problem with any system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let me guess, you never got over that OOP conceptual hurdle.
Pretty silly to suggest that OOP is the problem with any system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903562</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903598</id>
	<title>Resume</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264518600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Proficient in C,C+,C++</htmltext>
<tokenext>Proficient in C,C + ,C + +</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Proficient in C,C+,C++</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905766</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>computational super</author>
	<datestamp>1264526580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Post worded as intended.  <i>I have no sense of humor.</i> </p><p>Fixed that for you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Post worded as intended .
I have no sense of humor .
Fixed that for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Post worded as intended.
I have no sense of humor.
Fixed that for you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903788</id>
	<title>Really?</title>
	<author>dangitman</author>
	<datestamp>1264519380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>writes Laird, 'we're expected to pay for our own tools,</p></div><p>I don't think it's actually common for hired programmers to buy their own tools.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>writes Laird , 'we 're expected to pay for our own tools,I do n't think it 's actually common for hired programmers to buy their own tools .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>writes Laird, 'we're expected to pay for our own tools,I don't think it's actually common for hired programmers to buy their own tools.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904318</id>
	<title>No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Post:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264521300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hello there!<br>Please refer to your opening on job posting site. I, Rajesh Sharma, would like to apply for the job.<br>I am working as a freelancer from Pune, India. I have over 7 years of experience in IT Industry with<br>exposure to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET Technologies as well as LAMP. My Key expertise is to develop Web Applications using:<br>1.  ASP.NET/C# with SQL Server 2005.<br>2.  PHP/MY SQL.<br>I have experience working with distributed teams around the globe. I am self desciplined and self<br>motivated who always belives in quality. I have a very good infrastructure with latest Hardware,<br>Software, Telephone lines, and Broadband connection for communication.<br><b>My hourly rates are $ 9 USD.</b> If you are looking for freelancers, please reply with a time to<br>discuss things over IM.</p><p>Thanks,<br>Rajesh</p><p>--</p><p>-<b>actual reply to a craigslist posting in a major US city, </b> looking for a software developer to work on site - received last week.</p><p>Just so you know, it's $9 an hour without even shopping around, and that's not a joke.</p><p>We all like to pretend this isn't here and it isn't happening, but I would say conservatively half the job market has disappeared in 10 years due to this currency/standard of living imbalance.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hello there ! Please refer to your opening on job posting site .
I , Rajesh Sharma , would like to apply for the job.I am working as a freelancer from Pune , India .
I have over 7 years of experience in IT Industry withexposure to .NET Technologies as well as LAMP .
My Key expertise is to develop Web Applications using : 1 .
ASP.NET/C # with SQL Server 2005.2 .
PHP/MY SQL.I have experience working with distributed teams around the globe .
I am self desciplined and selfmotivated who always belives in quality .
I have a very good infrastructure with latest Hardware,Software , Telephone lines , and Broadband connection for communication.My hourly rates are $ 9 USD .
If you are looking for freelancers , please reply with a time todiscuss things over IM.Thanks,Rajesh---actual reply to a craigslist posting in a major US city , looking for a software developer to work on site - received last week.Just so you know , it 's $ 9 an hour without even shopping around , and that 's not a joke.We all like to pretend this is n't here and it is n't happening , but I would say conservatively half the job market has disappeared in 10 years due to this currency/standard of living imbalance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hello there!Please refer to your opening on job posting site.
I, Rajesh Sharma, would like to apply for the job.I am working as a freelancer from Pune, India.
I have over 7 years of experience in IT Industry withexposure to .NET Technologies as well as LAMP.
My Key expertise is to develop Web Applications using:1.
ASP.NET/C# with SQL Server 2005.2.
PHP/MY SQL.I have experience working with distributed teams around the globe.
I am self desciplined and selfmotivated who always belives in quality.
I have a very good infrastructure with latest Hardware,Software, Telephone lines, and Broadband connection for communication.My hourly rates are $ 9 USD.
If you are looking for freelancers, please reply with a time todiscuss things over IM.Thanks,Rajesh---actual reply to a craigslist posting in a major US city,  looking for a software developer to work on site - received last week.Just so you know, it's $9 an hour without even shopping around, and that's not a joke.We all like to pretend this isn't here and it isn't happening, but I would say conservatively half the job market has disappeared in 10 years due to this currency/standard of living imbalance.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904514</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264521960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>If you go to an interview at least google the damn company and find out what they do.</p></div></blockquote><p>But the last company I interviewed with WAS Google, you ignorant clod.  You can't Google Google, it's circular!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you go to an interview at least google the damn company and find out what they do.But the last company I interviewed with WAS Google , you ignorant clod .
You ca n't Google Google , it 's circular !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you go to an interview at least google the damn company and find out what they do.But the last company I interviewed with WAS Google, you ignorant clod.
You can't Google Google, it's circular!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30946410</id>
	<title>Re:In Defense of Statistics</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264707780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm sorry, your link lost me at the first bullet point: "Most computer scientists are required to possess a Ph.D." and confirmed my disbelief with "Computer scientists held about 28,900 jobs in 2008"</p><p>You \_actually\_ wanted http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm</p><p>"starting salary offers for graduates with a bachelor&rsquo;s degree in computer science averaged $61,407 in July 2009."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sorry , your link lost me at the first bullet point : " Most computer scientists are required to possess a Ph.D. " and confirmed my disbelief with " Computer scientists held about 28,900 jobs in 2008 " You \ _actually \ _ wanted http : //www.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm " starting salary offers for graduates with a bachelor    s degree in computer science averaged $ 61,407 in July 2009 .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sorry, your link lost me at the first bullet point: "Most computer scientists are required to possess a Ph.D." and confirmed my disbelief with "Computer scientists held about 28,900 jobs in 2008"You \_actually\_ wanted http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm"starting salary offers for graduates with a bachelor’s degree in computer science averaged $61,407 in July 2009.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904306</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907292</id>
	<title>Re:Really?</title>
	<author>SteeldrivingJon</author>
	<datestamp>1264532580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"I don't think it's actually common for hired programmers to buy their own tools."</p><p>Well, no, but if you're going to keep up with tech you're going to need your own set at home and spend a lot of your own time learning new stuff.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" I do n't think it 's actually common for hired programmers to buy their own tools .
" Well , no , but if you 're going to keep up with tech you 're going to need your own set at home and spend a lot of your own time learning new stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"I don't think it's actually common for hired programmers to buy their own tools.
"Well, no, but if you're going to keep up with tech you're going to need your own set at home and spend a lot of your own time learning new stuff.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904924</id>
	<title>It can be lucrative, but you have to work at it</title>
	<author>ErichTheRed</author>
	<datestamp>1264523460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>(Disclaimer: I'm a systems integration guy at an IT services and engineering firm. I work with tons of developers, but I'm not one myself.)</p><p>From what I've observed, the best programmers/developers/coders/whatever are the ones who specialize in understanding their problem domain. The industry I work in has a lot of specialized, semi-proprietary knowledge that takes work to learn. It's the kind of stuff you can't just pick a programmer off the street for -- to do a good job you need to know more than the actual mechanics of writing software. My company pays those who wish to specialize pretty well, and the work atmosphere is much better. By default, you're dealing with a different class of developer who is able to think beyond the code they're hacking together in Visual Studio or Eclipse. By means of comparison, we also have a set of lower-level "grunt" coders who write test code and other things that don't require the extra business-side thought.</p><p>Another lucrative area, albeit less secure, is contracting. I know Indian outsourcing firms have gotten better over the years, but I still hear stories from my developer friends of how they made a years' salary in a few months basically rewriting some of the disasters that have come back from the offshore teams. Again, you have to be smart and have a strong stomach for risk or a huge bank account to back you up during the bad times.</p><p>I think it's the same in my area of speciality (systems administration, integration and engineering.) Good people are still being hired. Companies need an engineering staff that can think for itself, design things that don't randomly die, and not be at the mercy of a vendor when they do. In the sysadmin ranks, most of the unemployment is caused by data center consoldation or outsourcing....and that directly affects the lower-level admins who do backups, operate the console, etc. It's a killer for entry-level people -- how do we grow new sysadmins if we can't start them somewhere? Same thing goes for developers...no one comes out of college understanding high level systems design, and you have to give them a few projects to get them thinking.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>( Disclaimer : I 'm a systems integration guy at an IT services and engineering firm .
I work with tons of developers , but I 'm not one myself .
) From what I 've observed , the best programmers/developers/coders/whatever are the ones who specialize in understanding their problem domain .
The industry I work in has a lot of specialized , semi-proprietary knowledge that takes work to learn .
It 's the kind of stuff you ca n't just pick a programmer off the street for -- to do a good job you need to know more than the actual mechanics of writing software .
My company pays those who wish to specialize pretty well , and the work atmosphere is much better .
By default , you 're dealing with a different class of developer who is able to think beyond the code they 're hacking together in Visual Studio or Eclipse .
By means of comparison , we also have a set of lower-level " grunt " coders who write test code and other things that do n't require the extra business-side thought.Another lucrative area , albeit less secure , is contracting .
I know Indian outsourcing firms have gotten better over the years , but I still hear stories from my developer friends of how they made a years ' salary in a few months basically rewriting some of the disasters that have come back from the offshore teams .
Again , you have to be smart and have a strong stomach for risk or a huge bank account to back you up during the bad times.I think it 's the same in my area of speciality ( systems administration , integration and engineering .
) Good people are still being hired .
Companies need an engineering staff that can think for itself , design things that do n't randomly die , and not be at the mercy of a vendor when they do .
In the sysadmin ranks , most of the unemployment is caused by data center consoldation or outsourcing....and that directly affects the lower-level admins who do backups , operate the console , etc .
It 's a killer for entry-level people -- how do we grow new sysadmins if we ca n't start them somewhere ?
Same thing goes for developers...no one comes out of college understanding high level systems design , and you have to give them a few projects to get them thinking .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>(Disclaimer: I'm a systems integration guy at an IT services and engineering firm.
I work with tons of developers, but I'm not one myself.
)From what I've observed, the best programmers/developers/coders/whatever are the ones who specialize in understanding their problem domain.
The industry I work in has a lot of specialized, semi-proprietary knowledge that takes work to learn.
It's the kind of stuff you can't just pick a programmer off the street for -- to do a good job you need to know more than the actual mechanics of writing software.
My company pays those who wish to specialize pretty well, and the work atmosphere is much better.
By default, you're dealing with a different class of developer who is able to think beyond the code they're hacking together in Visual Studio or Eclipse.
By means of comparison, we also have a set of lower-level "grunt" coders who write test code and other things that don't require the extra business-side thought.Another lucrative area, albeit less secure, is contracting.
I know Indian outsourcing firms have gotten better over the years, but I still hear stories from my developer friends of how they made a years' salary in a few months basically rewriting some of the disasters that have come back from the offshore teams.
Again, you have to be smart and have a strong stomach for risk or a huge bank account to back you up during the bad times.I think it's the same in my area of speciality (systems administration, integration and engineering.
) Good people are still being hired.
Companies need an engineering staff that can think for itself, design things that don't randomly die, and not be at the mercy of a vendor when they do.
In the sysadmin ranks, most of the unemployment is caused by data center consoldation or outsourcing....and that directly affects the lower-level admins who do backups, operate the console, etc.
It's a killer for entry-level people -- how do we grow new sysadmins if we can't start them somewhere?
Same thing goes for developers...no one comes out of college understanding high level systems design, and you have to give them a few projects to get them thinking.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908404</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>ultranova</author>
	<datestamp>1264536840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Each and every project, I have had the above things. There are lots of ways around the above, but the main thing is that it's very hard.</p></div> </blockquote><p>Hey, you outsource and offshore because you don't want to pay a decent wage, you deserve all the pain you get.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Each and every project , I have had the above things .
There are lots of ways around the above , but the main thing is that it 's very hard .
Hey , you outsource and offshore because you do n't want to pay a decent wage , you deserve all the pain you get .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Each and every project, I have had the above things.
There are lots of ways around the above, but the main thing is that it's very hard.
Hey, you outsource and offshore because you don't want to pay a decent wage, you deserve all the pain you get.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905742</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903720</id>
	<title>Don't do it!</title>
	<author>e2d2</author>
	<datestamp>1264519020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't be a developer. They will work you 24/7. You will be cuffed to your desk most of the day. Your hair will turn gray and fall out around the edges so you'll have a friar cut. They'll water board you for overtime. They make you buy your own computer, desk, and chair. You aren't allowed outside except for one hour a day of supervised time in the yard. Coworkers will shank you with shivs made from sharpened USB drives. You'll have to gang up to get respect. First thing you'll have to do when you come to work is shank someone, to let them know you mean business! Wages are a lie. You'll be paid in honey buns and cans of tobacco so you can roll your own.  If you work hard enough you can get a free day with your spouse, but this depends on company performance.</p><p>Overall being a developer is the most horrible job in the world. If I were young and choosing a career I would do something else. Like be a reality star or join the circus.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't be a developer .
They will work you 24/7 .
You will be cuffed to your desk most of the day .
Your hair will turn gray and fall out around the edges so you 'll have a friar cut .
They 'll water board you for overtime .
They make you buy your own computer , desk , and chair .
You are n't allowed outside except for one hour a day of supervised time in the yard .
Coworkers will shank you with shivs made from sharpened USB drives .
You 'll have to gang up to get respect .
First thing you 'll have to do when you come to work is shank someone , to let them know you mean business !
Wages are a lie .
You 'll be paid in honey buns and cans of tobacco so you can roll your own .
If you work hard enough you can get a free day with your spouse , but this depends on company performance.Overall being a developer is the most horrible job in the world .
If I were young and choosing a career I would do something else .
Like be a reality star or join the circus .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't be a developer.
They will work you 24/7.
You will be cuffed to your desk most of the day.
Your hair will turn gray and fall out around the edges so you'll have a friar cut.
They'll water board you for overtime.
They make you buy your own computer, desk, and chair.
You aren't allowed outside except for one hour a day of supervised time in the yard.
Coworkers will shank you with shivs made from sharpened USB drives.
You'll have to gang up to get respect.
First thing you'll have to do when you come to work is shank someone, to let them know you mean business!
Wages are a lie.
You'll be paid in honey buns and cans of tobacco so you can roll your own.
If you work hard enough you can get a free day with your spouse, but this depends on company performance.Overall being a developer is the most horrible job in the world.
If I were young and choosing a career I would do something else.
Like be a reality star or join the circus.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30920224</id>
	<title>Re:Depends....</title>
	<author>xycadium</author>
	<datestamp>1264618980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Actually there's some truth to that humor. I only do some programming as part of my network and server admin duties (creating ticket systems and other management controls within internal websites that I've developed using asp then asp.net exclusively). I've found though that as the years have progressed (8 years for me) and three IT jobs later, the IT work is more considered on par just slightly above janitorial staff. I originally went to college then joined the IT world because I thought that it was a respected profession. Well, that's no longer the case and I'm sadly considering a 180 in my career choices but have no idea in what I'll go into after spending all my time learning computer skills for the last twelve plus years. IT really needs to form one big IT union or some other kind of professional group to start controlling how we're treated and perceived. Is there any way we can get our respect back and stop being handed brooms and mops along with our copies of the software corp keys and admin passwords?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually there 's some truth to that humor .
I only do some programming as part of my network and server admin duties ( creating ticket systems and other management controls within internal websites that I 've developed using asp then asp.net exclusively ) .
I 've found though that as the years have progressed ( 8 years for me ) and three IT jobs later , the IT work is more considered on par just slightly above janitorial staff .
I originally went to college then joined the IT world because I thought that it was a respected profession .
Well , that 's no longer the case and I 'm sadly considering a 180 in my career choices but have no idea in what I 'll go into after spending all my time learning computer skills for the last twelve plus years .
IT really needs to form one big IT union or some other kind of professional group to start controlling how we 're treated and perceived .
Is there any way we can get our respect back and stop being handed brooms and mops along with our copies of the software corp keys and admin passwords ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually there's some truth to that humor.
I only do some programming as part of my network and server admin duties (creating ticket systems and other management controls within internal websites that I've developed using asp then asp.net exclusively).
I've found though that as the years have progressed (8 years for me) and three IT jobs later, the IT work is more considered on par just slightly above janitorial staff.
I originally went to college then joined the IT world because I thought that it was a respected profession.
Well, that's no longer the case and I'm sadly considering a 180 in my career choices but have no idea in what I'll go into after spending all my time learning computer skills for the last twelve plus years.
IT really needs to form one big IT union or some other kind of professional group to start controlling how we're treated and perceived.
Is there any way we can get our respect back and stop being handed brooms and mops along with our copies of the software corp keys and admin passwords?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905358</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>barzok</author>
	<datestamp>1264525140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I had a co-op student once, who obviously had no affinity for programming . . . or, more to the point, no affinity for computers in general.</p></div></blockquote><p>I worked with a woman just a couple years ago who had no affinity for anything more complicated than a basic cell phone.</p><p>One day while explaining to her how a 5-line Windows batch file worked (simple loop, but the syntax is a little ugly), she informed me that if not for the need to have remote access to the office, she wouldn't even own a computer (this came up because she was mad that she'd bought a home computer, then less than 6 months later company policy switched and mandated that only company-issued laptops could VPN into the network, thus rendering her purchase "useless.").</p><p>She was completely useless when she came up in the on-call rotation; if the phone rang, she immediately dumped the issue off to me.</p><p>She had school-age kids (10 &amp; 12, IIRC), and wouldn't even own a PC so that they could learn the skills needed to use the most basic of software - which is pretty much mandatory nowadays (word processors).</p><p>How someone with that mindset gets a "Senior Developer" job title boggles my mind. Shining example of "only in it for the money."</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I had a co-op student once , who obviously had no affinity for programming .
. .
or , more to the point , no affinity for computers in general.I worked with a woman just a couple years ago who had no affinity for anything more complicated than a basic cell phone.One day while explaining to her how a 5-line Windows batch file worked ( simple loop , but the syntax is a little ugly ) , she informed me that if not for the need to have remote access to the office , she would n't even own a computer ( this came up because she was mad that she 'd bought a home computer , then less than 6 months later company policy switched and mandated that only company-issued laptops could VPN into the network , thus rendering her purchase " useless .
" ) .She was completely useless when she came up in the on-call rotation ; if the phone rang , she immediately dumped the issue off to me.She had school-age kids ( 10 &amp; 12 , IIRC ) , and would n't even own a PC so that they could learn the skills needed to use the most basic of software - which is pretty much mandatory nowadays ( word processors ) .How someone with that mindset gets a " Senior Developer " job title boggles my mind .
Shining example of " only in it for the money .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had a co-op student once, who obviously had no affinity for programming .
. .
or, more to the point, no affinity for computers in general.I worked with a woman just a couple years ago who had no affinity for anything more complicated than a basic cell phone.One day while explaining to her how a 5-line Windows batch file worked (simple loop, but the syntax is a little ugly), she informed me that if not for the need to have remote access to the office, she wouldn't even own a computer (this came up because she was mad that she'd bought a home computer, then less than 6 months later company policy switched and mandated that only company-issued laptops could VPN into the network, thus rendering her purchase "useless.
").She was completely useless when she came up in the on-call rotation; if the phone rang, she immediately dumped the issue off to me.She had school-age kids (10 &amp; 12, IIRC), and wouldn't even own a PC so that they could learn the skills needed to use the most basic of software - which is pretty much mandatory nowadays (word processors).How someone with that mindset gets a "Senior Developer" job title boggles my mind.
Shining example of "only in it for the money.
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905842</id>
	<title>Re:I don't have a degree...</title>
	<author>Angst Badger</author>
	<datestamp>1264526760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't have a degree (in this field, anyway), either, and my income is currently $100k/yr, though I've spent most of the last five years working as an independent contractor, so it can vary quite a bit -- it's usually closer to $60k, so I feel pretty lucky considering the state of the economy right now. All that said, it took me fifteen years to get to this level. My observation of my coworkers is that the degree buys you almost nothing at the outset, but it will let you advance faster. Of course, how much faster will depend on what you actually learned in school, how fast you learn on the job, and particularly on your social skills. I've supervised people far more skilled than I am -- and I'm no slouch -- but who couldn't play the office political game, and I've been supervised by total morons whose lack of constructive skills was more than balanced by their skill at kissing their superiors' asses and taking credit for the work done by the people below them.</p><p>The degree helps, but it's not the be-all and end-all that dewy-eyed college kids would like to think it is. The big shock that everyone entering the real world has to adjust to is this: it's not remotely meritocratic. A degree, both as a simple credential and as the knowledge that (sometimes) goes with it, is one tool among many, and it's not necessarily the most important one.</p><p>I'll say this, though: I wish I'd gotten the degree. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and the work you don't do in school will have to be done on the job, where the stress and stakes are higher, and it will almost certainly take longer to fill in all of the gaps in your knowledge.</p><p>Of course, if I had it to do over, I wouldn't be in this field at all. The same things that interested me about computing in the 80's are still around, but I haven't spent the last fifteen years working on AI, VR, or even games: I've spent it building web apps, billing software, and other mind-numbingly boring crap. Once I've got the kid through college, I think I'm going to go do something else. As the main thread notes, there's not even any prestige left to the field. When I was a kid, computers and programmers were exotic, mysterious things. Now, computers are ubiquitous, and programmers are thought of by non-programmers as digital janitors.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't have a degree ( in this field , anyway ) , either , and my income is currently $ 100k/yr , though I 've spent most of the last five years working as an independent contractor , so it can vary quite a bit -- it 's usually closer to $ 60k , so I feel pretty lucky considering the state of the economy right now .
All that said , it took me fifteen years to get to this level .
My observation of my coworkers is that the degree buys you almost nothing at the outset , but it will let you advance faster .
Of course , how much faster will depend on what you actually learned in school , how fast you learn on the job , and particularly on your social skills .
I 've supervised people far more skilled than I am -- and I 'm no slouch -- but who could n't play the office political game , and I 've been supervised by total morons whose lack of constructive skills was more than balanced by their skill at kissing their superiors ' asses and taking credit for the work done by the people below them.The degree helps , but it 's not the be-all and end-all that dewy-eyed college kids would like to think it is .
The big shock that everyone entering the real world has to adjust to is this : it 's not remotely meritocratic .
A degree , both as a simple credential and as the knowledge that ( sometimes ) goes with it , is one tool among many , and it 's not necessarily the most important one.I 'll say this , though : I wish I 'd gotten the degree .
There is no such thing as a free lunch , and the work you do n't do in school will have to be done on the job , where the stress and stakes are higher , and it will almost certainly take longer to fill in all of the gaps in your knowledge.Of course , if I had it to do over , I would n't be in this field at all .
The same things that interested me about computing in the 80 's are still around , but I have n't spent the last fifteen years working on AI , VR , or even games : I 've spent it building web apps , billing software , and other mind-numbingly boring crap .
Once I 've got the kid through college , I think I 'm going to go do something else .
As the main thread notes , there 's not even any prestige left to the field .
When I was a kid , computers and programmers were exotic , mysterious things .
Now , computers are ubiquitous , and programmers are thought of by non-programmers as digital janitors .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't have a degree (in this field, anyway), either, and my income is currently $100k/yr, though I've spent most of the last five years working as an independent contractor, so it can vary quite a bit -- it's usually closer to $60k, so I feel pretty lucky considering the state of the economy right now.
All that said, it took me fifteen years to get to this level.
My observation of my coworkers is that the degree buys you almost nothing at the outset, but it will let you advance faster.
Of course, how much faster will depend on what you actually learned in school, how fast you learn on the job, and particularly on your social skills.
I've supervised people far more skilled than I am -- and I'm no slouch -- but who couldn't play the office political game, and I've been supervised by total morons whose lack of constructive skills was more than balanced by their skill at kissing their superiors' asses and taking credit for the work done by the people below them.The degree helps, but it's not the be-all and end-all that dewy-eyed college kids would like to think it is.
The big shock that everyone entering the real world has to adjust to is this: it's not remotely meritocratic.
A degree, both as a simple credential and as the knowledge that (sometimes) goes with it, is one tool among many, and it's not necessarily the most important one.I'll say this, though: I wish I'd gotten the degree.
There is no such thing as a free lunch, and the work you don't do in school will have to be done on the job, where the stress and stakes are higher, and it will almost certainly take longer to fill in all of the gaps in your knowledge.Of course, if I had it to do over, I wouldn't be in this field at all.
The same things that interested me about computing in the 80's are still around, but I haven't spent the last fifteen years working on AI, VR, or even games: I've spent it building web apps, billing software, and other mind-numbingly boring crap.
Once I've got the kid through college, I think I'm going to go do something else.
As the main thread notes, there's not even any prestige left to the field.
When I was a kid, computers and programmers were exotic, mysterious things.
Now, computers are ubiquitous, and programmers are thought of by non-programmers as digital janitors.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904264</id>
	<title>Rolling on 20's...</title>
	<author>D Ninja</author>
	<datestamp>1264521120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am a developer, so I can definitely answer your question...</p><p>A typical day at the office involves me sitting in my king-sized, overstuffed easy-chair, programming on quad 48" hi-def monitors while being fed bon-bons by some very beautiful ladies.  While this is rough, once I head home (driving in my <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti\_Veyron" title="wikipedia.org">day car</a> [wikipedia.org], of course, I save my better cars for more important occasions), I can then relax in one of the many 289 rooms in my mansion, spend time in one of 6 hot tubs (of course, they come stocked with their own set of beautiful ladies) or just enjoy the 27 hole golf course that's spread across part of my 1000 acres of property.</p><p>Of course, after all of this, it is nice to spend a little time watching the latest movie in my own movie theater (iMax and 3D, of course), and then I always enjoy topping the night off by snuggling down in my King-King sized bed (yeah...a king sized bed x 2) - again, the aforementioned beautiful ladies are always there.</p><p>So...is being a developer a lucrative career?  Well...it's not like being a rapper...but it pays the bills.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am a developer , so I can definitely answer your question...A typical day at the office involves me sitting in my king-sized , overstuffed easy-chair , programming on quad 48 " hi-def monitors while being fed bon-bons by some very beautiful ladies .
While this is rough , once I head home ( driving in my day car [ wikipedia.org ] , of course , I save my better cars for more important occasions ) , I can then relax in one of the many 289 rooms in my mansion , spend time in one of 6 hot tubs ( of course , they come stocked with their own set of beautiful ladies ) or just enjoy the 27 hole golf course that 's spread across part of my 1000 acres of property.Of course , after all of this , it is nice to spend a little time watching the latest movie in my own movie theater ( iMax and 3D , of course ) , and then I always enjoy topping the night off by snuggling down in my King-King sized bed ( yeah...a king sized bed x 2 ) - again , the aforementioned beautiful ladies are always there.So...is being a developer a lucrative career ?
Well...it 's not like being a rapper...but it pays the bills .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am a developer, so I can definitely answer your question...A typical day at the office involves me sitting in my king-sized, overstuffed easy-chair, programming on quad 48" hi-def monitors while being fed bon-bons by some very beautiful ladies.
While this is rough, once I head home (driving in my day car [wikipedia.org], of course, I save my better cars for more important occasions), I can then relax in one of the many 289 rooms in my mansion, spend time in one of 6 hot tubs (of course, they come stocked with their own set of beautiful ladies) or just enjoy the 27 hole golf course that's spread across part of my 1000 acres of property.Of course, after all of this, it is nice to spend a little time watching the latest movie in my own movie theater (iMax and 3D, of course), and then I always enjoy topping the night off by snuggling down in my King-King sized bed (yeah...a king sized bed x 2) - again, the aforementioned beautiful ladies are always there.So...is being a developer a lucrative career?
Well...it's not like being a rapper...but it pays the bills.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907020</id>
	<title>Re:Putting a dollar figure down is problematic</title>
	<author>bill\_kress</author>
	<datestamp>1264531500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Location is definitely important.  I moved to Spokane, WA and took a pretty serious pay-cut, but with selling my house in CA for twice what I paid for it and buying a new house on 10 acres for $100,000 I was actually taking home more money.</p><p>Two more job changes there and each time I took an additional cut.</p><p>Then I moved to Portland and almost doubled what I'd been making.</p><p>I guess if you bunch all the different aspects of "Computer Science"--HTML/web Monkey, Visual Basic hacker, Database manager, QA, IT,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... in with Software Engineers you might start to see some pretty bad numbers...</p><p>But it sounded like the implication was that Software Engineering is paying much worse--I'm not seeing that, I'm just seeing the market fragment and people getting paid based on the relative difficulty of (and therefore the number of workers available) for each job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Location is definitely important .
I moved to Spokane , WA and took a pretty serious pay-cut , but with selling my house in CA for twice what I paid for it and buying a new house on 10 acres for $ 100,000 I was actually taking home more money.Two more job changes there and each time I took an additional cut.Then I moved to Portland and almost doubled what I 'd been making.I guess if you bunch all the different aspects of " Computer Science " --HTML/web Monkey , Visual Basic hacker , Database manager , QA , IT , ... in with Software Engineers you might start to see some pretty bad numbers...But it sounded like the implication was that Software Engineering is paying much worse--I 'm not seeing that , I 'm just seeing the market fragment and people getting paid based on the relative difficulty of ( and therefore the number of workers available ) for each job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Location is definitely important.
I moved to Spokane, WA and took a pretty serious pay-cut, but with selling my house in CA for twice what I paid for it and buying a new house on 10 acres for $100,000 I was actually taking home more money.Two more job changes there and each time I took an additional cut.Then I moved to Portland and almost doubled what I'd been making.I guess if you bunch all the different aspects of "Computer Science"--HTML/web Monkey, Visual Basic hacker, Database manager, QA, IT, ... in with Software Engineers you might start to see some pretty bad numbers...But it sounded like the implication was that Software Engineering is paying much worse--I'm not seeing that, I'm just seeing the market fragment and people getting paid based on the relative difficulty of (and therefore the number of workers available) for each job.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903500</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909812</id>
	<title>Re:I don't have a degree...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264500000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm making 84k in the Seattle area with no degree. Mostly, it's because I get the non-programming aspects of the job... some of the great coders we have here don't have any sense of what's valuable to the client or, even worse, are terrible at communicating with the client.  None of them can estimate the time for a project, or design a valuable multivariate test. The way to get ahead in this industry is to learn the soft-skills, because frankly? Most of your college-going co-workers won't.</p><p>Posted anonymously because I have coworkers who read this site.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm making 84k in the Seattle area with no degree .
Mostly , it 's because I get the non-programming aspects of the job... some of the great coders we have here do n't have any sense of what 's valuable to the client or , even worse , are terrible at communicating with the client .
None of them can estimate the time for a project , or design a valuable multivariate test .
The way to get ahead in this industry is to learn the soft-skills , because frankly ?
Most of your college-going co-workers wo n't.Posted anonymously because I have coworkers who read this site .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm making 84k in the Seattle area with no degree.
Mostly, it's because I get the non-programming aspects of the job... some of the great coders we have here don't have any sense of what's valuable to the client or, even worse, are terrible at communicating with the client.
None of them can estimate the time for a project, or design a valuable multivariate test.
The way to get ahead in this industry is to learn the soft-skills, because frankly?
Most of your college-going co-workers won't.Posted anonymously because I have coworkers who read this site.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907320</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>QuantumRiff</author>
	<datestamp>1264532700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You need to seriously change what schools you recruit from.  Many schools focus on hardware.  I changed majors later on, but my first 2 years of college were all electronics, C, assembly, PLD's, Micro controllers Interfaces, Asynchronous state machines, etc..<br><br>Stop trying to cram/retrain software developers into something they were not trained for.<br><br>www.oit.edu/cset &lt;-- shameless plug</htmltext>
<tokenext>You need to seriously change what schools you recruit from .
Many schools focus on hardware .
I changed majors later on , but my first 2 years of college were all electronics , C , assembly , PLD 's , Micro controllers Interfaces , Asynchronous state machines , etc..Stop trying to cram/retrain software developers into something they were not trained for.www.oit.edu/cset &lt; -- shameless plug</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You need to seriously change what schools you recruit from.
Many schools focus on hardware.
I changed majors later on, but my first 2 years of college were all electronics, C, assembly, PLD's, Micro controllers Interfaces, Asynchronous state machines, etc..Stop trying to cram/retrain software developers into something they were not trained for.www.oit.edu/cset &lt;-- shameless plug</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30910420</id>
	<title>Re:Salary</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1264502700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can tell you that $90k buys a LOT of house and a high quality of life in Austin, TX. My commute is really easy as well (as long as you work and live South). I shudder to think of what kind of place I'd live in if I picked LA or NYC for those salaries you listed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I can tell you that $ 90k buys a LOT of house and a high quality of life in Austin , TX .
My commute is really easy as well ( as long as you work and live South ) .
I shudder to think of what kind of place I 'd live in if I picked LA or NYC for those salaries you listed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can tell you that $90k buys a LOT of house and a high quality of life in Austin, TX.
My commute is really easy as well (as long as you work and live South).
I shudder to think of what kind of place I'd live in if I picked LA or NYC for those salaries you listed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903916</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903484</id>
	<title>Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264518120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That they are essentially mechanics? They're just not auto mechanics, they're more or less computer or software mechanics?</p><p>That shouldn't be a surprise to any. Especially as we see more about self-fixing computers, the furthering of object oriented programming which is leading to simpler and simpler APIs so you don't even have to be a programmer to make things happen. Or technologies like Sharepoint where you don't even have to have a GED to prop up multiple sites / data sources, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That they are essentially mechanics ?
They 're just not auto mechanics , they 're more or less computer or software mechanics ? That should n't be a surprise to any .
Especially as we see more about self-fixing computers , the furthering of object oriented programming which is leading to simpler and simpler APIs so you do n't even have to be a programmer to make things happen .
Or technologies like Sharepoint where you do n't even have to have a GED to prop up multiple sites / data sources , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That they are essentially mechanics?
They're just not auto mechanics, they're more or less computer or software mechanics?That shouldn't be a surprise to any.
Especially as we see more about self-fixing computers, the furthering of object oriented programming which is leading to simpler and simpler APIs so you don't even have to be a programmer to make things happen.
Or technologies like Sharepoint where you don't even have to have a GED to prop up multiple sites / data sources, etc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905956</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264527240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>B/c there's any point in developing a real-time embedded Word Processor, or IM, or....  Those languages all have their place, I think it's unfortunate that software professionals balkanize themselves so much by demonizing the other folk who don't live on their software island.  What we should focus on is promoting good engineering standards (something which is very possible in Java and C#...less sure about VB), not on the specific language.  FWIW, C++ can be much less "predictable" than Java or C# unless you are very conscientious about your standards.  That's especially true if one is trying to do a complex, multi-threaded application (for any problem domain where information sharing across threads is necessary).  After all, it's not like Windows was written in Java (and, until recently, there certainly wasn't any C# in it either...not sure if there is now).  But being written in C++ surely hasn't saved it from unpredictable crashes....  Sure, it can be done, but...different tools for different jobs.  I'm happy for you, though, that you get to use "real" languages.  Spending time in fake languages makes for such an existential crisis....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>B/c there 's any point in developing a real-time embedded Word Processor , or IM , or.... Those languages all have their place , I think it 's unfortunate that software professionals balkanize themselves so much by demonizing the other folk who do n't live on their software island .
What we should focus on is promoting good engineering standards ( something which is very possible in Java and C # ...less sure about VB ) , not on the specific language .
FWIW , C + + can be much less " predictable " than Java or C # unless you are very conscientious about your standards .
That 's especially true if one is trying to do a complex , multi-threaded application ( for any problem domain where information sharing across threads is necessary ) .
After all , it 's not like Windows was written in Java ( and , until recently , there certainly was n't any C # in it either...not sure if there is now ) .
But being written in C + + surely has n't saved it from unpredictable crashes.... Sure , it can be done , but...different tools for different jobs .
I 'm happy for you , though , that you get to use " real " languages .
Spending time in fake languages makes for such an existential crisis... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>B/c there's any point in developing a real-time embedded Word Processor, or IM, or....  Those languages all have their place, I think it's unfortunate that software professionals balkanize themselves so much by demonizing the other folk who don't live on their software island.
What we should focus on is promoting good engineering standards (something which is very possible in Java and C#...less sure about VB), not on the specific language.
FWIW, C++ can be much less "predictable" than Java or C# unless you are very conscientious about your standards.
That's especially true if one is trying to do a complex, multi-threaded application (for any problem domain where information sharing across threads is necessary).
After all, it's not like Windows was written in Java (and, until recently, there certainly wasn't any C# in it either...not sure if there is now).
But being written in C++ surely hasn't saved it from unpredictable crashes....  Sure, it can be done, but...different tools for different jobs.
I'm happy for you, though, that you get to use "real" languages.
Spending time in fake languages makes for such an existential crisis....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906702</id>
	<title>Re:Not so much</title>
	<author>C10H14N2</author>
	<datestamp>1264530120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The way every other member of your species has done in every conceivable field since time immemorial. You simply DO.</p><p>For the rest, here's a quick run-down:</p><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFQkMAPVoIo" title="youtube.com">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFQkMAPVoIo</a> [youtube.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The way every other member of your species has done in every conceivable field since time immemorial .
You simply DO.For the rest , here 's a quick run-down : http : //www.youtube.com/watch ? v = xFQkMAPVoIo [ youtube.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The way every other member of your species has done in every conceivable field since time immemorial.
You simply DO.For the rest, here's a quick run-down:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFQkMAPVoIo [youtube.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907260</id>
	<title>So he knew ....</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1264532400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... he was shafting you....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... he was shafting you... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... he was shafting you....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904260</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904916</id>
	<title>Re:Not so much</title>
	<author>tixxit</author>
	<datestamp>1264523460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Get into co-op. The employers expect you to have little experience and by the time you graduate you have experience. The job I got right out of school was with one of my co-op employers. The pay is in-line with the article's expectations.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Get into co-op .
The employers expect you to have little experience and by the time you graduate you have experience .
The job I got right out of school was with one of my co-op employers .
The pay is in-line with the article 's expectations .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get into co-op.
The employers expect you to have little experience and by the time you graduate you have experience.
The job I got right out of school was with one of my co-op employers.
The pay is in-line with the article's expectations.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905964</id>
	<title>Re:Resume</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264527300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Looks like my report card!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Looks like my report card !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Looks like my report card!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903598</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904966</id>
	<title>Re:Really?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264523700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Dunno. it's often hard to get approval for Coverity or similar.</p><p>Sometimes it's hard to get a decent bug tracker deployed and used. Often it's hard to convince management to institute decent practices. If you think about the lobbying and unionizing required to get management to do the right thing as "paying" for tools, then does it fit closer to what you've experienced and the claim of "paying for our own tools".</p><p>Also if an engineer sets up a tool and uses it, and their team uses it, the engineer is typically expected to do their original job anyway and isn't paid for the additional resource they're providing (why encourage rogues to do things that they weren't ordered to do?), does this count as "... we're expected to pay for our own tools" (since we aren't paid for maintaining things we do set up, and thus it comes out of our salary or free time).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Dunno .
it 's often hard to get approval for Coverity or similar.Sometimes it 's hard to get a decent bug tracker deployed and used .
Often it 's hard to convince management to institute decent practices .
If you think about the lobbying and unionizing required to get management to do the right thing as " paying " for tools , then does it fit closer to what you 've experienced and the claim of " paying for our own tools " .Also if an engineer sets up a tool and uses it , and their team uses it , the engineer is typically expected to do their original job anyway and is n't paid for the additional resource they 're providing ( why encourage rogues to do things that they were n't ordered to do ?
) , does this count as " ... we 're expected to pay for our own tools " ( since we are n't paid for maintaining things we do set up , and thus it comes out of our salary or free time ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dunno.
it's often hard to get approval for Coverity or similar.Sometimes it's hard to get a decent bug tracker deployed and used.
Often it's hard to convince management to institute decent practices.
If you think about the lobbying and unionizing required to get management to do the right thing as "paying" for tools, then does it fit closer to what you've experienced and the claim of "paying for our own tools".Also if an engineer sets up a tool and uses it, and their team uses it, the engineer is typically expected to do their original job anyway and isn't paid for the additional resource they're providing (why encourage rogues to do things that they weren't ordered to do?
), does this count as "... we're expected to pay for our own tools" (since we aren't paid for maintaining things we do set up, and thus it comes out of our salary or free time).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30911254</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264506780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Even though Rajesh (or John) can't do the job, they still have a deflationary effect on the salaries of those that can.  If you have 100 skilled workers paid at a given rate and then introduce 100 unskilled workers into the same workforce, the wages of the skilled workers will still drop even though they are ultimately doing the same work. It works this way because most employers can't tell the difference between skilled and unskilled workers and there is more competition to get attention.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Even though Rajesh ( or John ) ca n't do the job , they still have a deflationary effect on the salaries of those that can .
If you have 100 skilled workers paid at a given rate and then introduce 100 unskilled workers into the same workforce , the wages of the skilled workers will still drop even though they are ultimately doing the same work .
It works this way because most employers ca n't tell the difference between skilled and unskilled workers and there is more competition to get attention .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even though Rajesh (or John) can't do the job, they still have a deflationary effect on the salaries of those that can.
If you have 100 skilled workers paid at a given rate and then introduce 100 unskilled workers into the same workforce, the wages of the skilled workers will still drop even though they are ultimately doing the same work.
It works this way because most employers can't tell the difference between skilled and unskilled workers and there is more competition to get attention.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905742</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903762</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264519260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Personally I would never ever higher a phd for a programing role. I'm hard pressed to higher a grad student. Why?</p></div></blockquote><p>Because they might show up your grammar and spelling skills?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Personally I would never ever higher a phd for a programing role .
I 'm hard pressed to higher a grad student .
Why ? Because they might show up your grammar and spelling skills ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Personally I would never ever higher a phd for a programing role.
I'm hard pressed to higher a grad student.
Why?Because they might show up your grammar and spelling skills?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30910126</id>
	<title>Re:Resume</title>
	<author>SoTuA</author>
	<datestamp>1264501440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd laugh... if I hadn't interviewed candidates claiming to be proficient in J2EE and J3EE.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd laugh... if I had n't interviewed candidates claiming to be proficient in J2EE and J3EE .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd laugh... if I hadn't interviewed candidates claiming to be proficient in J2EE and J3EE.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903598</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905790</id>
	<title>Re:$60K seems very believable for starting salary</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264526640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>$100K is very common once you get some experience. A few (but not too many) get up above $200K - rare but possible.</p></div><p>Agreed. Thats about what we're earning here in Toronto. Its a good living to say the least.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 100K is very common once you get some experience .
A few ( but not too many ) get up above $ 200K - rare but possible.Agreed .
Thats about what we 're earning here in Toronto .
Its a good living to say the least .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$100K is very common once you get some experience.
A few (but not too many) get up above $200K - rare but possible.Agreed.
Thats about what we're earning here in Toronto.
Its a good living to say the least.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903566</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905616</id>
	<title>Re:i think when plumbing was first invented</title>
	<author>SCHecklerX</author>
	<datestamp>1264526040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's pretty much the same.</p><p>You have plumbers responsible for piping of huge complex buildings, and you have the Mr. Fix-it guy.</p><p>We have the same thing.  A fart app or birthday reminder isn't exactly the same as knowing the math and science and good programming practices to, I dunno, control spaceflight dynamics.</p><p>So, yeah.  this whole thread focuses on the tool, not the professional.  Which, as always, is wrong.  I own a chisel, but I'm no sculptor (that's a bad analogy, but whatever).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's pretty much the same.You have plumbers responsible for piping of huge complex buildings , and you have the Mr. Fix-it guy.We have the same thing .
A fart app or birthday reminder is n't exactly the same as knowing the math and science and good programming practices to , I dunno , control spaceflight dynamics.So , yeah .
this whole thread focuses on the tool , not the professional .
Which , as always , is wrong .
I own a chisel , but I 'm no sculptor ( that 's a bad analogy , but whatever ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's pretty much the same.You have plumbers responsible for piping of huge complex buildings, and you have the Mr. Fix-it guy.We have the same thing.
A fart app or birthday reminder isn't exactly the same as knowing the math and science and good programming practices to, I dunno, control spaceflight dynamics.So, yeah.
this whole thread focuses on the tool, not the professional.
Which, as always, is wrong.
I own a chisel, but I'm no sculptor (that's a bad analogy, but whatever).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904626</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905948</id>
	<title>Re:Don't do it!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264527240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is that you , Hans?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is that you , Hans ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is that you , Hans?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905508</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>samkass</author>
	<datestamp>1264525680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This article appears to lump "Programmer", "Computer Scientist", and "Software Engineer" together as if they were interchangeable.  I wonder if they're also lumping in Development Manager, Systems Engineer, Software Architect, etc.?</p><p>Becoming a "Programmer" can be as little as a 2-year associates degree or someone out of high school who's been hacking around on a side project, and is certainly not going to get you a high starting salary.  The rigor one can apply after an education in Computer Science, though, is valuable and will increase the starting salary substantially.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This article appears to lump " Programmer " , " Computer Scientist " , and " Software Engineer " together as if they were interchangeable .
I wonder if they 're also lumping in Development Manager , Systems Engineer , Software Architect , etc .
? Becoming a " Programmer " can be as little as a 2-year associates degree or someone out of high school who 's been hacking around on a side project , and is certainly not going to get you a high starting salary .
The rigor one can apply after an education in Computer Science , though , is valuable and will increase the starting salary substantially .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This article appears to lump "Programmer", "Computer Scientist", and "Software Engineer" together as if they were interchangeable.
I wonder if they're also lumping in Development Manager, Systems Engineer, Software Architect, etc.
?Becoming a "Programmer" can be as little as a 2-year associates degree or someone out of high school who's been hacking around on a side project, and is certainly not going to get you a high starting salary.
The rigor one can apply after an education in Computer Science, though, is valuable and will increase the starting salary substantially.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30911246</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>exomondo</author>
	<datestamp>1264506720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>if you're looking to point out incompetence then look to whoever is hiring these people because they are hiring the wrong people!

I primarily work in lower level languages (C/C++, Fortran) but I know a fair amount of C# as well and most certainly understand that ripping on higher level languages and referring to them as 'kiddie' languages will get you technologically left behind and makes you look like an elitist douchebag...you'll end up akin to the grandpa auto mechanic that complains that "real cars didn't have these new-fangled computers in 'em".</htmltext>
<tokenext>if you 're looking to point out incompetence then look to whoever is hiring these people because they are hiring the wrong people !
I primarily work in lower level languages ( C/C + + , Fortran ) but I know a fair amount of C # as well and most certainly understand that ripping on higher level languages and referring to them as 'kiddie ' languages will get you technologically left behind and makes you look like an elitist douchebag...you 'll end up akin to the grandpa auto mechanic that complains that " real cars did n't have these new-fangled computers in 'em " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if you're looking to point out incompetence then look to whoever is hiring these people because they are hiring the wrong people!
I primarily work in lower level languages (C/C++, Fortran) but I know a fair amount of C# as well and most certainly understand that ripping on higher level languages and referring to them as 'kiddie' languages will get you technologically left behind and makes you look like an elitist douchebag...you'll end up akin to the grandpa auto mechanic that complains that "real cars didn't have these new-fangled computers in 'em".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904828</id>
	<title>Re:No.</title>
	<author>pixelpusher220</author>
	<datestamp>1264523100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>was there ever a more appropriate story for Dogbert's advice?<br> <br>

&ldquo;Beware of taking advice from the very successful because, as a rule, they don&rsquo;t want company.&rdquo;</htmltext>
<tokenext>was there ever a more appropriate story for Dogbert 's advice ?
   Beware of taking advice from the very successful because , as a rule , they don    t want company.   </tokentext>
<sentencetext>was there ever a more appropriate story for Dogbert's advice?
“Beware of taking advice from the very successful because, as a rule, they don’t want company.”</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903426</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907088</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>Skuld-Chan</author>
	<datestamp>1264531740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You should try hiring in India as well. I used to call these guys at home (from Seattle) - it was a major plus if they showed up at the agreed time, another major plus if they answered any of my questions with something resembling words.</p><p>I found that most teams hired like 10 people for the workload of 3 or 4 just because it was inevitable that a) one or more of them would be terminated for lying on their resume (education and degree's they didn't actually have, or degree's from fraudulent universities), and b) out of that 10 or so - you'd have 2 or 3 that actually knew what they were doing - and barely at that.</p><p>I honestly don't see how that saved anyone any money over having American's do the same work (which is what we were doing - hiring Indians because they worked for less). There didn't seem to be any accountability like you mention above either - I guess that's the problem with having employees 10,000+ miles away.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You should try hiring in India as well .
I used to call these guys at home ( from Seattle ) - it was a major plus if they showed up at the agreed time , another major plus if they answered any of my questions with something resembling words.I found that most teams hired like 10 people for the workload of 3 or 4 just because it was inevitable that a ) one or more of them would be terminated for lying on their resume ( education and degree 's they did n't actually have , or degree 's from fraudulent universities ) , and b ) out of that 10 or so - you 'd have 2 or 3 that actually knew what they were doing - and barely at that.I honestly do n't see how that saved anyone any money over having American 's do the same work ( which is what we were doing - hiring Indians because they worked for less ) .
There did n't seem to be any accountability like you mention above either - I guess that 's the problem with having employees 10,000 + miles away .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You should try hiring in India as well.
I used to call these guys at home (from Seattle) - it was a major plus if they showed up at the agreed time, another major plus if they answered any of my questions with something resembling words.I found that most teams hired like 10 people for the workload of 3 or 4 just because it was inevitable that a) one or more of them would be terminated for lying on their resume (education and degree's they didn't actually have, or degree's from fraudulent universities), and b) out of that 10 or so - you'd have 2 or 3 that actually knew what they were doing - and barely at that.I honestly don't see how that saved anyone any money over having American's do the same work (which is what we were doing - hiring Indians because they worked for less).
There didn't seem to be any accountability like you mention above either - I guess that's the problem with having employees 10,000+ miles away.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905742</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907844</id>
	<title>Re:We are becoming more disposable</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1264534920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's a critical point. It seems that economists (especially but hardly exclusively) have forgotten that without people, economy doesn't even have a reason to be. The entire point of an economy is to provide for it's participants. It's good or bad is to be measured exclusively in terms of how well it serves it's participants.</p><p>Given the supposed growth in the economy, it SHOULD be possible right now to support a family of 4 with a house and 2 cars on a single 20 hour a week income. </p><p>Unfortunately, as long as labor is treated as a market like any other, it is literally impossible for the masses to ever see the benefits of high technology. Ideally, machines work so we don't have to, but when labor is a market, machines work so we don't get jobs (or income) at all. The only way to make things equitable and progressive while even pretending to use market dynamics is to create an artificial labor shortage. Otherwise, all of the benefits of an expanding economy and improving technology will inevitably accrue only at the top.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's a critical point .
It seems that economists ( especially but hardly exclusively ) have forgotten that without people , economy does n't even have a reason to be .
The entire point of an economy is to provide for it 's participants .
It 's good or bad is to be measured exclusively in terms of how well it serves it 's participants.Given the supposed growth in the economy , it SHOULD be possible right now to support a family of 4 with a house and 2 cars on a single 20 hour a week income .
Unfortunately , as long as labor is treated as a market like any other , it is literally impossible for the masses to ever see the benefits of high technology .
Ideally , machines work so we do n't have to , but when labor is a market , machines work so we do n't get jobs ( or income ) at all .
The only way to make things equitable and progressive while even pretending to use market dynamics is to create an artificial labor shortage .
Otherwise , all of the benefits of an expanding economy and improving technology will inevitably accrue only at the top .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's a critical point.
It seems that economists (especially but hardly exclusively) have forgotten that without people, economy doesn't even have a reason to be.
The entire point of an economy is to provide for it's participants.
It's good or bad is to be measured exclusively in terms of how well it serves it's participants.Given the supposed growth in the economy, it SHOULD be possible right now to support a family of 4 with a house and 2 cars on a single 20 hour a week income.
Unfortunately, as long as labor is treated as a market like any other, it is literally impossible for the masses to ever see the benefits of high technology.
Ideally, machines work so we don't have to, but when labor is a market, machines work so we don't get jobs (or income) at all.
The only way to make things equitable and progressive while even pretending to use market dynamics is to create an artificial labor shortage.
Otherwise, all of the benefits of an expanding economy and improving technology will inevitably accrue only at the top.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903728</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30913080</id>
	<title>Re:no-hire and non-compete agreements</title>
	<author>Eil</author>
	<datestamp>1264521300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Non-compete agreements are the devil. When you're working for someone and your attempts for a better wage, better working conditions, career advancement, and so on have failed, you should always be able to fall back on leaving and looking for a better employer. Unless you've signed an NCA. Then you're pretty much fucked.</p><p>That said, I don't think I would ever support a law against NCA's. After all, anyone who has ever signed one has always had the option not to. But still, you'd be a crazy person to work for an employer that wanted to control your career well after your fiduciary obligations to them are over.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Non-compete agreements are the devil .
When you 're working for someone and your attempts for a better wage , better working conditions , career advancement , and so on have failed , you should always be able to fall back on leaving and looking for a better employer .
Unless you 've signed an NCA .
Then you 're pretty much fucked.That said , I do n't think I would ever support a law against NCA 's .
After all , anyone who has ever signed one has always had the option not to .
But still , you 'd be a crazy person to work for an employer that wanted to control your career well after your fiduciary obligations to them are over .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Non-compete agreements are the devil.
When you're working for someone and your attempts for a better wage, better working conditions, career advancement, and so on have failed, you should always be able to fall back on leaving and looking for a better employer.
Unless you've signed an NCA.
Then you're pretty much fucked.That said, I don't think I would ever support a law against NCA's.
After all, anyone who has ever signed one has always had the option not to.
But still, you'd be a crazy person to work for an employer that wanted to control your career well after your fiduciary obligations to them are over.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909252</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264497720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You have a good sentiment, but in reality it's foolish. Look at the common advice given to college students these days: "Major in something you like; don't do it just for the money!"</p><p>The problem is that the world only has so much need for English and history majors.</p><p>I find your surgeon comment to be the most hysterical. My first two years of college, I took many of the same science classes as the pre-med students, and the majority of those students wanted to be doctors primarily because of the money and status.</p><p>With a degree in East Asian Studies, the only marketable skill I have is foreign language proficiency. Other than that, I have the same general skills as all of the other people with liberal arts degrees. Honestly, in the current economic climate, I wish I had majored in something I didn't necessarily like, but that made more money.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You have a good sentiment , but in reality it 's foolish .
Look at the common advice given to college students these days : " Major in something you like ; do n't do it just for the money !
" The problem is that the world only has so much need for English and history majors.I find your surgeon comment to be the most hysterical .
My first two years of college , I took many of the same science classes as the pre-med students , and the majority of those students wanted to be doctors primarily because of the money and status.With a degree in East Asian Studies , the only marketable skill I have is foreign language proficiency .
Other than that , I have the same general skills as all of the other people with liberal arts degrees .
Honestly , in the current economic climate , I wish I had majored in something I did n't necessarily like , but that made more money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You have a good sentiment, but in reality it's foolish.
Look at the common advice given to college students these days: "Major in something you like; don't do it just for the money!
"The problem is that the world only has so much need for English and history majors.I find your surgeon comment to be the most hysterical.
My first two years of college, I took many of the same science classes as the pre-med students, and the majority of those students wanted to be doctors primarily because of the money and status.With a degree in East Asian Studies, the only marketable skill I have is foreign language proficiency.
Other than that, I have the same general skills as all of the other people with liberal arts degrees.
Honestly, in the current economic climate, I wish I had majored in something I didn't necessarily like, but that made more money.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906596</id>
	<title>Re:Resume</title>
	<author>zildgulf</author>
	<datestamp>1264529640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>But you don't know C+++ so you don't get the job.</htmltext>
<tokenext>But you do n't know C + + + so you do n't get the job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But you don't know C+++ so you don't get the job.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903598</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905294</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264524900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>
Check rates of pay at odesk.com - C++ tops out around $30/hour...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Check rates of pay at odesk.com - C + + tops out around $ 30/hour.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Check rates of pay at odesk.com - C++ tops out around $30/hour...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903928</id>
	<title>Money isn't my primary interest</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264519980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I got into programming because I love building stuff.  I don't really care what I get paid as long as I can live in contentment, and I do.  I'm very lucky to have found a profession that aligns with my interests.  A lot of people got into programming in the 90s because it was lucrative; well, it's not now. Be glad you have a job, Quit bitching. Welcome to reality.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I got into programming because I love building stuff .
I do n't really care what I get paid as long as I can live in contentment , and I do .
I 'm very lucky to have found a profession that aligns with my interests .
A lot of people got into programming in the 90s because it was lucrative ; well , it 's not now .
Be glad you have a job , Quit bitching .
Welcome to reality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I got into programming because I love building stuff.
I don't really care what I get paid as long as I can live in contentment, and I do.
I'm very lucky to have found a profession that aligns with my interests.
A lot of people got into programming in the 90s because it was lucrative; well, it's not now.
Be glad you have a job, Quit bitching.
Welcome to reality.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30936406</id>
	<title>Re:As a recent graduate...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264703820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Negotiating - you're doing it wrong. I'm also in the UK &amp; I started on &pound;25K in 1998. Be more aggressive with your next interview!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Negotiating - you 're doing it wrong .
I 'm also in the UK &amp; I started on   25K in 1998 .
Be more aggressive with your next interview !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Negotiating - you're doing it wrong.
I'm also in the UK &amp; I started on £25K in 1998.
Be more aggressive with your next interview!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903802</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904750</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>Monkeedude1212</author>
	<datestamp>1264522800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>EXACTLY!</p><p>You know where the REAL money is: Dead Programming languages.</p><p>You learn how to use Cobol - and then you spend the time searching for the ONE company in your city still using it, you go to him and say "I can keep things running exactly how they used to be."</p><p>And bam, you can demand any salary you want.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>EXACTLY ! You know where the REAL money is : Dead Programming languages.You learn how to use Cobol - and then you spend the time searching for the ONE company in your city still using it , you go to him and say " I can keep things running exactly how they used to be .
" And bam , you can demand any salary you want .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>EXACTLY!You know where the REAL money is: Dead Programming languages.You learn how to use Cobol - and then you spend the time searching for the ONE company in your city still using it, you go to him and say "I can keep things running exactly how they used to be.
"And bam, you can demand any salary you want.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905922</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264527180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't give a shit about breadth of knowledge.  I want people working with me who know framing extremely well.  They'd better be good with a hammer and not have to rely on a foreman to build a simple wall.  Other than that, nobody in this building project cares.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't give a shit about breadth of knowledge .
I want people working with me who know framing extremely well .
They 'd better be good with a hammer and not have to rely on a foreman to build a simple wall .
Other than that , nobody in this building project cares .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't give a shit about breadth of knowledge.
I want people working with me who know framing extremely well.
They'd better be good with a hammer and not have to rely on a foreman to build a simple wall.
Other than that, nobody in this building project cares.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908502</id>
	<title>Re:I don't have a degree...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264537200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Woah, 1\%?</p><p>In the UK this is completely different, it seems practical knowledge and experience is valued more highly than degrees, I have no degree and have worked in software development since I was 17, 13 years ago, and there are many like me.</p><p>I would say over 50\% of the programmers (and managers) I have worked with have had no degree.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Woah , 1 \ % ? In the UK this is completely different , it seems practical knowledge and experience is valued more highly than degrees , I have no degree and have worked in software development since I was 17 , 13 years ago , and there are many like me.I would say over 50 \ % of the programmers ( and managers ) I have worked with have had no degree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Woah, 1\%?In the UK this is completely different, it seems practical knowledge and experience is valued more highly than degrees, I have no degree and have worked in software development since I was 17, 13 years ago, and there are many like me.I would say over 50\% of the programmers (and managers) I have worked with have had no degree.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903986</id>
	<title>Re:Don't do it!</title>
	<author>eeth</author>
	<datestamp>1264520160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>My company doesn't pay me any honey buns.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:(</htmltext>
<tokenext>My company does n't pay me any honey buns .
: (</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My company doesn't pay me any honey buns.
:(</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904632</id>
	<title>Re:my numbers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264522320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Surely that's not in Northern/Western Europe... maybe Portugal, Spain, Greece or Slovenia?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Surely that 's not in Northern/Western Europe... maybe Portugal , Spain , Greece or Slovenia ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Surely that's not in Northern/Western Europe... maybe Portugal, Spain, Greece or Slovenia?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903654</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904294</id>
	<title>Re:the key to earning well in this field</title>
	<author>$1uck</author>
	<datestamp>1264521240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I cannot agree more.  I've gotten lucky with some 10-20\%  pay raises (especially when I was woefully underpaid in 2003/2004)  but any real pay increase is going to come from switching companies.  This sucks for people who aren't comfortable interviewing/moving.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I can not agree more .
I 've gotten lucky with some 10-20 \ % pay raises ( especially when I was woefully underpaid in 2003/2004 ) but any real pay increase is going to come from switching companies .
This sucks for people who are n't comfortable interviewing/moving .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I cannot agree more.
I've gotten lucky with some 10-20\%  pay raises (especially when I was woefully underpaid in 2003/2004)  but any real pay increase is going to come from switching companies.
This sucks for people who aren't comfortable interviewing/moving.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904258</id>
	<title>Re:the key to earning well in this field</title>
	<author>jockeys</author>
	<datestamp>1264521120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>so, so true.  and employers wonder why the turnover rate for developers is so high.<br> <br>
I am a developer, most of my friends are developers.  I literally do not know a single developer who has ever stayed at a job more than 3 years.</htmltext>
<tokenext>so , so true .
and employers wonder why the turnover rate for developers is so high .
I am a developer , most of my friends are developers .
I literally do not know a single developer who has ever stayed at a job more than 3 years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>so, so true.
and employers wonder why the turnover rate for developers is so high.
I am a developer, most of my friends are developers.
I literally do not know a single developer who has ever stayed at a job more than 3 years.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30915762</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264599240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So you've stopped outsourcing your projects, right?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So you 've stopped outsourcing your projects , right ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So you've stopped outsourcing your projects, right?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905742</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907586</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264533960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's some differences, though.</p><p>1) Yes, you could have most of these same problems with any remote contractor, but you <b>won't</b> have them with an on-site <b>employee</b>.  Ergo, if a project is critical, don't rely on remote contractors, rely on actual employees who have a stake in your company.</p><p>2) Remote contractors in your own country are also in your timezone, and you can call them up while you're at work to ask quick questions to.  Not so with someone on the opposite side of the planet.  Waiting a full day for an answer to every single question causes project schedules to slip badly.</p><p>3) Remote contractors in your own country can sign contracts with you, and you can take them to court if things fail due to bungling.  Good luck filing a lawsuit against a contractor in another country.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's some differences , though.1 ) Yes , you could have most of these same problems with any remote contractor , but you wo n't have them with an on-site employee .
Ergo , if a project is critical , do n't rely on remote contractors , rely on actual employees who have a stake in your company.2 ) Remote contractors in your own country are also in your timezone , and you can call them up while you 're at work to ask quick questions to .
Not so with someone on the opposite side of the planet .
Waiting a full day for an answer to every single question causes project schedules to slip badly.3 ) Remote contractors in your own country can sign contracts with you , and you can take them to court if things fail due to bungling .
Good luck filing a lawsuit against a contractor in another country .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's some differences, though.1) Yes, you could have most of these same problems with any remote contractor, but you won't have them with an on-site employee.
Ergo, if a project is critical, don't rely on remote contractors, rely on actual employees who have a stake in your company.2) Remote contractors in your own country are also in your timezone, and you can call them up while you're at work to ask quick questions to.
Not so with someone on the opposite side of the planet.
Waiting a full day for an answer to every single question causes project schedules to slip badly.3) Remote contractors in your own country can sign contracts with you, and you can take them to court if things fail due to bungling.
Good luck filing a lawsuit against a contractor in another country.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906964</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908082</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264535760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Lawyers' associations wouldn't be worth squat if they didn't pass the laws prohibiting law practice by everyone else, thus effectively banning law education of the general population. Considering that politicians are usually lawyers (who left it to themselves to generate laws that can't be interpreted by a non-lawyer), this is more like a modern form of aristocracy than actual professional association.</p></div><p>No, it is a <em>good</em> thing that not just anybody can be called a "lawyer".  Same thing for doctors.  You don't want somebody who may not have any knowledge doing work for you that can affect the rest of your life or potentially end it.  Sure, you could <em>try</em> to vet one before hiring, but the odds are pretty good that if you're looking for a lawyer or doctor right now you probably don't have the time &amp; resources to vet a bunch of different ones until you find one that your certain isn't grossly incompetent.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Lawyers ' associations would n't be worth squat if they did n't pass the laws prohibiting law practice by everyone else , thus effectively banning law education of the general population .
Considering that politicians are usually lawyers ( who left it to themselves to generate laws that ca n't be interpreted by a non-lawyer ) , this is more like a modern form of aristocracy than actual professional association.No , it is a good thing that not just anybody can be called a " lawyer " .
Same thing for doctors .
You do n't want somebody who may not have any knowledge doing work for you that can affect the rest of your life or potentially end it .
Sure , you could try to vet one before hiring , but the odds are pretty good that if you 're looking for a lawyer or doctor right now you probably do n't have the time &amp; resources to vet a bunch of different ones until you find one that your certain is n't grossly incompetent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lawyers' associations wouldn't be worth squat if they didn't pass the laws prohibiting law practice by everyone else, thus effectively banning law education of the general population.
Considering that politicians are usually lawyers (who left it to themselves to generate laws that can't be interpreted by a non-lawyer), this is more like a modern form of aristocracy than actual professional association.No, it is a good thing that not just anybody can be called a "lawyer".
Same thing for doctors.
You don't want somebody who may not have any knowledge doing work for you that can affect the rest of your life or potentially end it.
Sure, you could try to vet one before hiring, but the odds are pretty good that if you're looking for a lawyer or doctor right now you probably don't have the time &amp; resources to vet a bunch of different ones until you find one that your certain isn't grossly incompetent.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905996</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903814</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>jallen02</author>
	<datestamp>1264519440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can get cheap FPGA boards these days too. The only barriers most people will face is motivation and the knowledge of what to learn and when to learn it. The trick is to optimize happiness and earningsat the intersection of the two that best fit the lifestyle choices you probably don't know you will have to make earlier in your career<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You can get cheap FPGA boards these days too .
The only barriers most people will face is motivation and the knowledge of what to learn and when to learn it .
The trick is to optimize happiness and earningsat the intersection of the two that best fit the lifestyle choices you probably do n't know you will have to make earlier in your career : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can get cheap FPGA boards these days too.
The only barriers most people will face is motivation and the knowledge of what to learn and when to learn it.
The trick is to optimize happiness and earningsat the intersection of the two that best fit the lifestyle choices you probably don't know you will have to make earlier in your career :)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30929036</id>
	<title>Re:In Defense of Statistics</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264607460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos304.htm is talking about computer scientist positions typically requiring a PhD, not your general programmer position. Very different jobs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //www.bls.gov/oco/ocos304.htm is talking about computer scientist positions typically requiring a PhD , not your general programmer position .
Very different jobs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos304.htm is talking about computer scientist positions typically requiring a PhD, not your general programmer position.
Very different jobs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904306</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904524</id>
	<title>Re:Really?</title>
	<author>Lord Ender</author>
	<datestamp>1264521960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the company only offers a slow, aged laptop; then yes, you do need to buy your own tools (if you want to be productive).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the company only offers a slow , aged laptop ; then yes , you do need to buy your own tools ( if you want to be productive ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the company only offers a slow, aged laptop; then yes, you do need to buy your own tools (if you want to be productive).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907178</id>
	<title>Re:My pay numbers</title>
	<author>FatAlb3rt</author>
	<datestamp>1264532100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>&lt;br/&gt; is your friend...</htmltext>
<tokenext>is your friend.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> is your friend...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30912076</id>
	<title>Re:Don't do it!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264512240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Parent is moderated as funny, but I have a feeling that the author was only half joking.  If you cut through the prison analogy, there's actually a lot of sad, sad truth there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Parent is moderated as funny , but I have a feeling that the author was only half joking .
If you cut through the prison analogy , there 's actually a lot of sad , sad truth there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Parent is moderated as funny, but I have a feeling that the author was only half joking.
If you cut through the prison analogy, there's actually a lot of sad, sad truth there.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908544</id>
	<title>Re:We are becoming more disposable</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1264537440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When the world reaches population levels like it is today, you must face reality<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... people ARE DISPOSABLE PARTS.</p><p>You can act all cocky and pretend you can call the shots all day long, but you really can't.  The only time you have that ability is when you work for idiots, in which case you aren't safe because its unlikely your division/department/company will survive long anyway with idiots managing it.</p><p>You can be 'highly skilled' and there are 10 more skilled/qualified people sitting at the door willing to do your job for less the instant you get out of your seat for coffee.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When the world reaches population levels like it is today , you must face reality ... people ARE DISPOSABLE PARTS.You can act all cocky and pretend you can call the shots all day long , but you really ca n't .
The only time you have that ability is when you work for idiots , in which case you are n't safe because its unlikely your division/department/company will survive long anyway with idiots managing it.You can be 'highly skilled ' and there are 10 more skilled/qualified people sitting at the door willing to do your job for less the instant you get out of your seat for coffee .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When the world reaches population levels like it is today, you must face reality ... people ARE DISPOSABLE PARTS.You can act all cocky and pretend you can call the shots all day long, but you really can't.
The only time you have that ability is when you work for idiots, in which case you aren't safe because its unlikely your division/department/company will survive long anyway with idiots managing it.You can be 'highly skilled' and there are 10 more skilled/qualified people sitting at the door willing to do your job for less the instant you get out of your seat for coffee.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903728</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30913118</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264521660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I used to work as a graphic designer. I got my start as a software tester; as soon as I showed my boss that I knew Photoshop, he transferred me from a warehouse full of computers into an office with my own desk and lots of fun times working in the marketing dept.<br> <br>I've since had several graphic design jobs, and without exception they were fun and well-paying, even though anybody can just walk out and pick up Photoshop. Why? I didn't realize this until I started teaching Photoshop classes at my local college, but the vast majority of people aren't really cut out to be graphic designers. If your organization promoted a secretary into a graphic design position based on her knowledge of Photoshop, you really shouldn't be working there as a graphic designer in the first place -- they clearly aren't serious.<br> <br>I've since moved into web design because I enjoy tech+graphics work, but I work with a graphic designer who just hired two employees of her own and clears $150K/yr. Not bad when you consider that you can still go down to the store to buy Photoshop and "compete" with her...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I used to work as a graphic designer .
I got my start as a software tester ; as soon as I showed my boss that I knew Photoshop , he transferred me from a warehouse full of computers into an office with my own desk and lots of fun times working in the marketing dept .
I 've since had several graphic design jobs , and without exception they were fun and well-paying , even though anybody can just walk out and pick up Photoshop .
Why ? I did n't realize this until I started teaching Photoshop classes at my local college , but the vast majority of people are n't really cut out to be graphic designers .
If your organization promoted a secretary into a graphic design position based on her knowledge of Photoshop , you really should n't be working there as a graphic designer in the first place -- they clearly are n't serious .
I 've since moved into web design because I enjoy tech + graphics work , but I work with a graphic designer who just hired two employees of her own and clears $ 150K/yr .
Not bad when you consider that you can still go down to the store to buy Photoshop and " compete " with her.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used to work as a graphic designer.
I got my start as a software tester; as soon as I showed my boss that I knew Photoshop, he transferred me from a warehouse full of computers into an office with my own desk and lots of fun times working in the marketing dept.
I've since had several graphic design jobs, and without exception they were fun and well-paying, even though anybody can just walk out and pick up Photoshop.
Why? I didn't realize this until I started teaching Photoshop classes at my local college, but the vast majority of people aren't really cut out to be graphic designers.
If your organization promoted a secretary into a graphic design position based on her knowledge of Photoshop, you really shouldn't be working there as a graphic designer in the first place -- they clearly aren't serious.
I've since moved into web design because I enjoy tech+graphics work, but I work with a graphic designer who just hired two employees of her own and clears $150K/yr.
Not bad when you consider that you can still go down to the store to buy Photoshop and "compete" with her...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905550</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908414</id>
	<title>Re:Don't do it!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264536900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Computers are machines.<br>We are people.<br>People are not meant to work with machines.<br>Let machines work with machines.<br>You go find a job working with people.</p><p>Programming is a really crappy career. I've been doing it 25 yrs. I know.</p><p>Ok, I got to admit it's freakin awesome to get $160K a year doing what I love doing.</p><p>But, you'll hate it. move on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Computers are machines.We are people.People are not meant to work with machines.Let machines work with machines.You go find a job working with people.Programming is a really crappy career .
I 've been doing it 25 yrs .
I know.Ok , I got to admit it 's freakin awesome to get $ 160K a year doing what I love doing.But , you 'll hate it .
move on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Computers are machines.We are people.People are not meant to work with machines.Let machines work with machines.You go find a job working with people.Programming is a really crappy career.
I've been doing it 25 yrs.
I know.Ok, I got to admit it's freakin awesome to get $160K a year doing what I love doing.But, you'll hate it.
move on.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>gatkinso</author>
	<datestamp>1264520400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I could give a shit about "breadth of knowledge."</p><p>I want people working with me who know VHDL and C ***EXTREMELY*** well.  The better be good with vi, and not have to rely on a GUI to configure a linux box.</p><p>Other than that, nobody in this building cares.</p><p>I don't give a rat's ass about their (for example) Java experience quite frankly.  And why should we?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I could give a shit about " breadth of knowledge .
" I want people working with me who know VHDL and C * * * EXTREMELY * * * well .
The better be good with vi , and not have to rely on a GUI to configure a linux box.Other than that , nobody in this building cares.I do n't give a rat 's ass about their ( for example ) Java experience quite frankly .
And why should we ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I could give a shit about "breadth of knowledge.
"I want people working with me who know VHDL and C ***EXTREMELY*** well.
The better be good with vi, and not have to rely on a GUI to configure a linux box.Other than that, nobody in this building cares.I don't give a rat's ass about their (for example) Java experience quite frankly.
And why should we?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906202</id>
	<title>Re:Do what you love and take control</title>
	<author>xxuserxx</author>
	<datestamp>1264528200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Could not agree more.  I am a highschool dropout but I got into computers when I was 14 and then joined the navy when I was 19 and worked in IT for 6 years.  I got out and was hired immediately for a helpdesk position for an IT firm in San Diego.  Quickly worked my way up into consulting and one of my clients made me a really good offer.  Still a high scool dropout and making really good money for my age. Im 28.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Could not agree more .
I am a highschool dropout but I got into computers when I was 14 and then joined the navy when I was 19 and worked in IT for 6 years .
I got out and was hired immediately for a helpdesk position for an IT firm in San Diego .
Quickly worked my way up into consulting and one of my clients made me a really good offer .
Still a high scool dropout and making really good money for my age .
Im 28 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Could not agree more.
I am a highschool dropout but I got into computers when I was 14 and then joined the navy when I was 19 and worked in IT for 6 years.
I got out and was hired immediately for a helpdesk position for an IT firm in San Diego.
Quickly worked my way up into consulting and one of my clients made me a really good offer.
Still a high scool dropout and making really good money for my age.
Im 28.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904124</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907940</id>
	<title>Re:Location, Location, Location</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264535340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would just have to add a minor correction. Banks pay the highest rates depending on the part of the country. A New York bank job associated with any sort of trading systems pays significantly higher than the average. In fact, the average 135+100+K bonus is significantly more than the average developer job virtually anywhere else in the states.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would just have to add a minor correction .
Banks pay the highest rates depending on the part of the country .
A New York bank job associated with any sort of trading systems pays significantly higher than the average .
In fact , the average 135 + 100 + K bonus is significantly more than the average developer job virtually anywhere else in the states .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would just have to add a minor correction.
Banks pay the highest rates depending on the part of the country.
A New York bank job associated with any sort of trading systems pays significantly higher than the average.
In fact, the average 135+100+K bonus is significantly more than the average developer job virtually anywhere else in the states.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903860</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909978</id>
	<title>Re:Really?</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1264500780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I actually wish my company would let me use my own computer instead of some crappy generic Dell that gets swapped out every 18 months or so.</p><p>I even volunteered to buy my own computer for work but they won't let me. I guess we have a deal with Dell and/or The Devil.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I actually wish my company would let me use my own computer instead of some crappy generic Dell that gets swapped out every 18 months or so.I even volunteered to buy my own computer for work but they wo n't let me .
I guess we have a deal with Dell and/or The Devil .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I actually wish my company would let me use my own computer instead of some crappy generic Dell that gets swapped out every 18 months or so.I even volunteered to buy my own computer for work but they won't let me.
I guess we have a deal with Dell and/or The Devil.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908226</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>Unequivocal</author>
	<datestamp>1264536240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think you guys are both right - but the real problem in my experience isn't with remote work, but with having trusted workers. I've had to fire local programmers who were unreliable too. It's just easier to build trust and dedication among a local team. It's also possible to do it remotely but most people don't know how and so they skip it, and wonder why the project keeps falling apart. At least that's been my experience. If I build relationships involving on-going and future work with people remotely, things tend to work out better. That said, I've had nothing but trouble with working with off-shore remote staff, so I prefer to stick with US-based subs, who work in cheaper parts of the country.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think you guys are both right - but the real problem in my experience is n't with remote work , but with having trusted workers .
I 've had to fire local programmers who were unreliable too .
It 's just easier to build trust and dedication among a local team .
It 's also possible to do it remotely but most people do n't know how and so they skip it , and wonder why the project keeps falling apart .
At least that 's been my experience .
If I build relationships involving on-going and future work with people remotely , things tend to work out better .
That said , I 've had nothing but trouble with working with off-shore remote staff , so I prefer to stick with US-based subs , who work in cheaper parts of the country .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think you guys are both right - but the real problem in my experience isn't with remote work, but with having trusted workers.
I've had to fire local programmers who were unreliable too.
It's just easier to build trust and dedication among a local team.
It's also possible to do it remotely but most people don't know how and so they skip it, and wonder why the project keeps falling apart.
At least that's been my experience.
If I build relationships involving on-going and future work with people remotely, things tend to work out better.
That said, I've had nothing but trouble with working with off-shore remote staff, so I prefer to stick with US-based subs, who work in cheaper parts of the country.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906964</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907472</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>stoiko</author>
	<datestamp>1264533480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm working as a game programmer (mostly low level C++ stuff) here in Bulgaria and my salary is around the $10 an hour mark. Lots of western companies outsource here: Ubisoft, Crytek, IBM, VMWare, Johnson Controls, Siemens... the list goes on. My income is above average and I think the people here still consider programmers special "knowledge workers".</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm working as a game programmer ( mostly low level C + + stuff ) here in Bulgaria and my salary is around the $ 10 an hour mark .
Lots of western companies outsource here : Ubisoft , Crytek , IBM , VMWare , Johnson Controls , Siemens... the list goes on .
My income is above average and I think the people here still consider programmers special " knowledge workers " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm working as a game programmer (mostly low level C++ stuff) here in Bulgaria and my salary is around the $10 an hour mark.
Lots of western companies outsource here: Ubisoft, Crytek, IBM, VMWare, Johnson Controls, Siemens... the list goes on.
My income is above average and I think the people here still consider programmers special "knowledge workers".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904318</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904516</id>
	<title>Works for me</title>
	<author>SirGarlon</author>
	<datestamp>1264521960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Programming works fine for me, thanks.  I had to move around a bit till I found a company where software is the main product (so developers are valued), and I have to keep my skills current and work well with others.  When it's time to find a job, I've had to use networking instead of blindly e-mailing my resume into a black hole.  I'd have had to do all these things in any other profession.  Sometimes I think the people who bitch about how hostile the tech job market has become are just whiny losers who can't take ownership of their own careers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Programming works fine for me , thanks .
I had to move around a bit till I found a company where software is the main product ( so developers are valued ) , and I have to keep my skills current and work well with others .
When it 's time to find a job , I 've had to use networking instead of blindly e-mailing my resume into a black hole .
I 'd have had to do all these things in any other profession .
Sometimes I think the people who bitch about how hostile the tech job market has become are just whiny losers who ca n't take ownership of their own careers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Programming works fine for me, thanks.
I had to move around a bit till I found a company where software is the main product (so developers are valued), and I have to keep my skills current and work well with others.
When it's time to find a job, I've had to use networking instead of blindly e-mailing my resume into a black hole.
I'd have had to do all these things in any other profession.
Sometimes I think the people who bitch about how hostile the tech job market has become are just whiny losers who can't take ownership of their own careers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903632</id>
	<title>I guess they forgot about the dip of 2002-04</title>
	<author>kiehlster</author>
	<datestamp>1264518720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>because when I graduated in '03 all the CS jobs vanished thanks to an overabundance of CS grads combining with a dip in the economy.  I was lucky to find a job paying $28k/yr.  Maybe it was different in other regions, but there certainly weren't any starting jobs around here for 54k.</htmltext>
<tokenext>because when I graduated in '03 all the CS jobs vanished thanks to an overabundance of CS grads combining with a dip in the economy .
I was lucky to find a job paying $ 28k/yr .
Maybe it was different in other regions , but there certainly were n't any starting jobs around here for 54k .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>because when I graduated in '03 all the CS jobs vanished thanks to an overabundance of CS grads combining with a dip in the economy.
I was lucky to find a job paying $28k/yr.
Maybe it was different in other regions, but there certainly weren't any starting jobs around here for 54k.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30914370</id>
	<title>T0r0nt0 the biggest slave farm in the IT industry</title>
	<author>The Abused Developer</author>
	<datestamp>1264623180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Just don't ever think about getting a programming job in the Toronto area - I haven't heard a single positive story from tens of ppl, only nightmares; the practice is to overwork you till you spit blood if you are not one of the intimates of the boss/management.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just do n't ever think about getting a programming job in the Toronto area - I have n't heard a single positive story from tens of ppl , only nightmares ; the practice is to overwork you till you spit blood if you are not one of the intimates of the boss/management .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just don't ever think about getting a programming job in the Toronto area - I haven't heard a single positive story from tens of ppl, only nightmares; the practice is to overwork you till you spit blood if you are not one of the intimates of the boss/management.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904484</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>gbrandt</author>
	<datestamp>1264521840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It depends on what you want.  Higher levels of academia do not necessarily produce good programmers, but it does typically produce good researchers.   Hire the individual, not the education, is my experience.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It depends on what you want .
Higher levels of academia do not necessarily produce good programmers , but it does typically produce good researchers .
Hire the individual , not the education , is my experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It depends on what you want.
Higher levels of academia do not necessarily produce good programmers, but it does typically produce good researchers.
Hire the individual, not the education, is my experience.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903762</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904156</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264520760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Part of the bias in these numbers comes from what sort of "programmer" the person is. A person that "programs" HTML/ASP/CFM and other web applications is bound to make less than a person that programs in C/C++. Java is a bit of a mixed bag, because there are so many people out there that can program in that training wheels language. Right out of college 4 years ago, I immediately made $50k (USD/yr). After a masters and some experience, that number grew significantly, over $80. However, someone I graduated with didn't opt to get out of his niche and grow beyond the cubicle, and is still somewhere around $60, in the same job he's had for 5 years now. In a similar fashion, my former group that has primarily web developers, all the "programmers" sit between $35k and $40k.</p><p>Web developers are a dime a dozen, so of course they aren't going to be making truckloads of money. The best way to climb the ranks is to make yourself unique, be indispensible (job security), and make sure your managers think they are getting a great deal for what they are paying you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Part of the bias in these numbers comes from what sort of " programmer " the person is .
A person that " programs " HTML/ASP/CFM and other web applications is bound to make less than a person that programs in C/C + + .
Java is a bit of a mixed bag , because there are so many people out there that can program in that training wheels language .
Right out of college 4 years ago , I immediately made $ 50k ( USD/yr ) .
After a masters and some experience , that number grew significantly , over $ 80 .
However , someone I graduated with did n't opt to get out of his niche and grow beyond the cubicle , and is still somewhere around $ 60 , in the same job he 's had for 5 years now .
In a similar fashion , my former group that has primarily web developers , all the " programmers " sit between $ 35k and $ 40k.Web developers are a dime a dozen , so of course they are n't going to be making truckloads of money .
The best way to climb the ranks is to make yourself unique , be indispensible ( job security ) , and make sure your managers think they are getting a great deal for what they are paying you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Part of the bias in these numbers comes from what sort of "programmer" the person is.
A person that "programs" HTML/ASP/CFM and other web applications is bound to make less than a person that programs in C/C++.
Java is a bit of a mixed bag, because there are so many people out there that can program in that training wheels language.
Right out of college 4 years ago, I immediately made $50k (USD/yr).
After a masters and some experience, that number grew significantly, over $80.
However, someone I graduated with didn't opt to get out of his niche and grow beyond the cubicle, and is still somewhere around $60, in the same job he's had for 5 years now.
In a similar fashion, my former group that has primarily web developers, all the "programmers" sit between $35k and $40k.Web developers are a dime a dozen, so of course they aren't going to be making truckloads of money.
The best way to climb the ranks is to make yourself unique, be indispensible (job security), and make sure your managers think they are getting a great deal for what they are paying you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904124</id>
	<title>Do what you love and take control</title>
	<author>SledgeHammerSeb</author>
	<datestamp>1264520640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Never ever let anyone tell you what you can or should earn.  Your salary is your choice.  Do what you love, take control, and don't whine.  This approach has worked well for me for the past 30 years.  I've survived more than a few industry changes over that time.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Never ever let anyone tell you what you can or should earn .
Your salary is your choice .
Do what you love , take control , and do n't whine .
This approach has worked well for me for the past 30 years .
I 've survived more than a few industry changes over that time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Never ever let anyone tell you what you can or should earn.
Your salary is your choice.
Do what you love, take control, and don't whine.
This approach has worked well for me for the past 30 years.
I've survived more than a few industry changes over that time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908724</id>
	<title>Fantasy Land vs Reality</title>
	<author>AthleteMusicianNerd</author>
	<datestamp>1264538460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>The US Government lives in fantasy land.  They created the Tech Bubble, Housing Bubble, and in hindsight can't even figure out why either happened.  They believe that the unemployment rate can go down while the number of people employed goes down.  The Tech bubble has given our industry a plethora of incompetence chasing after that "lucrative" salary.  In reality most software engineers I know do alright, but none are wealthy and ALL are pretty miserable(mostly from the 70-80 hour weeks).</htmltext>
<tokenext>The US Government lives in fantasy land .
They created the Tech Bubble , Housing Bubble , and in hindsight ca n't even figure out why either happened .
They believe that the unemployment rate can go down while the number of people employed goes down .
The Tech bubble has given our industry a plethora of incompetence chasing after that " lucrative " salary .
In reality most software engineers I know do alright , but none are wealthy and ALL are pretty miserable ( mostly from the 70-80 hour weeks ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The US Government lives in fantasy land.
They created the Tech Bubble, Housing Bubble, and in hindsight can't even figure out why either happened.
They believe that the unemployment rate can go down while the number of people employed goes down.
The Tech bubble has given our industry a plethora of incompetence chasing after that "lucrative" salary.
In reality most software engineers I know do alright, but none are wealthy and ALL are pretty miserable(mostly from the 70-80 hour weeks).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904266</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>AphexNexus</author>
	<datestamp>1264521180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't think this point can be driven home enough and you sight a perfect example.  As an employer I would want to hire first those who showed the desire to do the job(s) they are applying for.  They are going to be far better employees to manage and work with when it comes to getting the job done.  As someone who's receiving service from such a person their quality it going to tend to be better if they have a general desire to "want" to do the work they are doing.  Like you said, I want the doctor who about to open me up to be a total geek about his choice of medicine.  I would feel far better knowing that sitting in his bathroom are magazines about new research and techniques related to his field.  If people are allowed to do what they are passionate about it's going to benefit everyone in the end, but here in the US especially it seems it's all about making the $ no matter the sacrifice.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't think this point can be driven home enough and you sight a perfect example .
As an employer I would want to hire first those who showed the desire to do the job ( s ) they are applying for .
They are going to be far better employees to manage and work with when it comes to getting the job done .
As someone who 's receiving service from such a person their quality it going to tend to be better if they have a general desire to " want " to do the work they are doing .
Like you said , I want the doctor who about to open me up to be a total geek about his choice of medicine .
I would feel far better knowing that sitting in his bathroom are magazines about new research and techniques related to his field .
If people are allowed to do what they are passionate about it 's going to benefit everyone in the end , but here in the US especially it seems it 's all about making the $ no matter the sacrifice .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't think this point can be driven home enough and you sight a perfect example.
As an employer I would want to hire first those who showed the desire to do the job(s) they are applying for.
They are going to be far better employees to manage and work with when it comes to getting the job done.
As someone who's receiving service from such a person their quality it going to tend to be better if they have a general desire to "want" to do the work they are doing.
Like you said, I want the doctor who about to open me up to be a total geek about his choice of medicine.
I would feel far better knowing that sitting in his bathroom are magazines about new research and techniques related to his field.
If people are allowed to do what they are passionate about it's going to benefit everyone in the end, but here in the US especially it seems it's all about making the $ no matter the sacrifice.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905050</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264524060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Or any other career for that matter . . . do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money . . . ?"</p></div><p>Oye tync Oye juct dyd</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Or any other career for that matter .
. .
do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon , who is , " in it for the money .
. .
? " Oye tync Oye juct dyd</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or any other career for that matter .
. .
do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money .
. .
?"Oye tync Oye juct dyd
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30949366</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>cervo</author>
	<datestamp>1264780620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hey I made Slackware work back in the day but I needed menus at least.... X configuration was a bitch...but since you are doing embedded systems probably not an issue.
<br> <br>
The configuration used to have a set of NCURSES screens though which is technically a GUI, made life much easier...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hey I made Slackware work back in the day but I needed menus at least.... X configuration was a bitch...but since you are doing embedded systems probably not an issue .
The configuration used to have a set of NCURSES screens though which is technically a GUI , made life much easier.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hey I made Slackware work back in the day but I needed menus at least.... X configuration was a bitch...but since you are doing embedded systems probably not an issue.
The configuration used to have a set of NCURSES screens though which is technically a GUI, made life much easier...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906900</id>
	<title>Reverse Psychology</title>
	<author>bootz15</author>
	<datestamp>1264530960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Programming is a terrible profession, you don't want to do it, so don't even try!

(And leave the abundance of job openings to me, so my salary sky rockets)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Programming is a terrible profession , you do n't want to do it , so do n't even try !
( And leave the abundance of job openings to me , so my salary sky rockets )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Programming is a terrible profession, you don't want to do it, so don't even try!
(And leave the abundance of job openings to me, so my salary sky rockets)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906778</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>zildgulf</author>
	<datestamp>1264530480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That guy should've went into cost accounting and get hired by a bit name financial institution.  With that iron will and a little ruthlessness he could've been one of those fat cats getting a "reduced" $90K bonus this year.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That guy should 've went into cost accounting and get hired by a bit name financial institution .
With that iron will and a little ruthlessness he could 've been one of those fat cats getting a " reduced " $ 90K bonus this year .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That guy should've went into cost accounting and get hired by a bit name financial institution.
With that iron will and a little ruthlessness he could've been one of those fat cats getting a "reduced" $90K bonus this year.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904624</id>
	<title>I can't speak for others...</title>
	<author>Pojut</author>
	<datestamp>1264522320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...but I do fairly well doing Mail Merge programming, considering I don't have a degree or any certs (unless you count ASE certs, lulz).  I love that I sit in the middle between the technical team and the business team...I get to act as a translator of sorts.  The mail merge programming I do isn't all that particularly difficult, but laying out new documents for our clients or trying to figure out complex math equations so data appears correct is always fun.</p><p>For reference, I work in a pharmaceutical call center, so most of our forms are things like insurance verifications, claims, patient assistance program applications, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...but I do fairly well doing Mail Merge programming , considering I do n't have a degree or any certs ( unless you count ASE certs , lulz ) .
I love that I sit in the middle between the technical team and the business team...I get to act as a translator of sorts .
The mail merge programming I do is n't all that particularly difficult , but laying out new documents for our clients or trying to figure out complex math equations so data appears correct is always fun.For reference , I work in a pharmaceutical call center , so most of our forms are things like insurance verifications , claims , patient assistance program applications , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...but I do fairly well doing Mail Merge programming, considering I don't have a degree or any certs (unless you count ASE certs, lulz).
I love that I sit in the middle between the technical team and the business team...I get to act as a translator of sorts.
The mail merge programming I do isn't all that particularly difficult, but laying out new documents for our clients or trying to figure out complex math equations so data appears correct is always fun.For reference, I work in a pharmaceutical call center, so most of our forms are things like insurance verifications, claims, patient assistance program applications, etc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904224</id>
	<title>Re:Really?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264521000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Considering the shit Dell hardware you get in most places, I would prefer to buy my own tools...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Considering the shit Dell hardware you get in most places , I would prefer to buy my own tools.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Considering the shit Dell hardware you get in most places, I would prefer to buy my own tools...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909902</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>thetoadwarrior</author>
	<datestamp>1264500420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There isn't anything inherently wrong with Java. It's a nice clean language and dead easy to generate a lot of boil plate code.
<br> <br>
The problem is how people are taught to use Java (or any language) and the fact is they don't teach them enough of the right stuff. I think it has to do with dumbing down development to make more people think they can be programming masters in order to drive down wages.
<br> <br>
Companies would absolutely love it if something like Java became a standard taught in high school or earlier. You'd have so many people that know enough to do the bulk of the work and pay them peanuts.
<br> <br>
I've seen some people straight out of uni, they think they're hot shit because they can generate loads of useful code with their IDE and it works. Yes it's great that within minutes the boring stuff is written but when that stuff isn't working as expected or their interaction with something that's generated you see that they fall apart and come asking me or consulting the internet.
<br> <br>
To an extent that's fine. You can't know everything from your first day on the job but it scary when you see people who aren't keen to actually learn how something works and why they're doing what they're doing or even take any sort of interest in math.
<br> <br>
The article claims you can expect to start out around 40k. There are bus drivers earning nearly that and while that's not their starting wage they've basically come straight out of high school with zero debt doing a fairly basic job. It's not even like it's high speed driving. A degree shouldn't necessarily earn you the right to a high wage ( there are a lot of shit degrees) but you should be concerned if you're expected to get deeply into debt, work over time for free and be treated like a slave for 40K when someone is doing a 9-5 job for the same and in fact because the programmer could be doing overtime for free, really he's being paid less than the bus driver.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is n't anything inherently wrong with Java .
It 's a nice clean language and dead easy to generate a lot of boil plate code .
The problem is how people are taught to use Java ( or any language ) and the fact is they do n't teach them enough of the right stuff .
I think it has to do with dumbing down development to make more people think they can be programming masters in order to drive down wages .
Companies would absolutely love it if something like Java became a standard taught in high school or earlier .
You 'd have so many people that know enough to do the bulk of the work and pay them peanuts .
I 've seen some people straight out of uni , they think they 're hot shit because they can generate loads of useful code with their IDE and it works .
Yes it 's great that within minutes the boring stuff is written but when that stuff is n't working as expected or their interaction with something that 's generated you see that they fall apart and come asking me or consulting the internet .
To an extent that 's fine .
You ca n't know everything from your first day on the job but it scary when you see people who are n't keen to actually learn how something works and why they 're doing what they 're doing or even take any sort of interest in math .
The article claims you can expect to start out around 40k .
There are bus drivers earning nearly that and while that 's not their starting wage they 've basically come straight out of high school with zero debt doing a fairly basic job .
It 's not even like it 's high speed driving .
A degree should n't necessarily earn you the right to a high wage ( there are a lot of shit degrees ) but you should be concerned if you 're expected to get deeply into debt , work over time for free and be treated like a slave for 40K when someone is doing a 9-5 job for the same and in fact because the programmer could be doing overtime for free , really he 's being paid less than the bus driver .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There isn't anything inherently wrong with Java.
It's a nice clean language and dead easy to generate a lot of boil plate code.
The problem is how people are taught to use Java (or any language) and the fact is they don't teach them enough of the right stuff.
I think it has to do with dumbing down development to make more people think they can be programming masters in order to drive down wages.
Companies would absolutely love it if something like Java became a standard taught in high school or earlier.
You'd have so many people that know enough to do the bulk of the work and pay them peanuts.
I've seen some people straight out of uni, they think they're hot shit because they can generate loads of useful code with their IDE and it works.
Yes it's great that within minutes the boring stuff is written but when that stuff isn't working as expected or their interaction with something that's generated you see that they fall apart and come asking me or consulting the internet.
To an extent that's fine.
You can't know everything from your first day on the job but it scary when you see people who aren't keen to actually learn how something works and why they're doing what they're doing or even take any sort of interest in math.
The article claims you can expect to start out around 40k.
There are bus drivers earning nearly that and while that's not their starting wage they've basically come straight out of high school with zero debt doing a fairly basic job.
It's not even like it's high speed driving.
A degree shouldn't necessarily earn you the right to a high wage ( there are a lot of shit degrees) but you should be concerned if you're expected to get deeply into debt, work over time for free and be treated like a slave for 40K when someone is doing a 9-5 job for the same and in fact because the programmer could be doing overtime for free, really he's being paid less than the bus driver.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908200</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264536180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a fellow South Carolinian, I have recently come in the software development market.  As an intern in school I made $13/hr with close to 25 hours a week.  After doing some thinking I decided to change it up with school full-time to part-time and start working full-time instead.  As I approached my boss about this, he was thrilled, because to him I was the golden boy that is helping the company a lot.  By job title I am a PHP/MySQL programmer with a hyperspecialization in Facebook Applications, but besides that I am also the system administrator and webmaster for all the websites we run, which there are a lot.  Nothing at work is new to me, even though I am entry level.</p><p>After talking with my boss about it, we made it official.  My starting salary was not over $35,000.  As a High School graduate with no degree(yet), I thought this was nice, but as I looked back I remember talks of $50k-60k starting salary.  Right now, I am satisfied with my salary, only because I'm single and still have my parents paying for things, which is soon to change.  As only being in the business for almost 6 months, I'm not trying to ask for more money, when I would rather work hard now and ask later.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a fellow South Carolinian , I have recently come in the software development market .
As an intern in school I made $ 13/hr with close to 25 hours a week .
After doing some thinking I decided to change it up with school full-time to part-time and start working full-time instead .
As I approached my boss about this , he was thrilled , because to him I was the golden boy that is helping the company a lot .
By job title I am a PHP/MySQL programmer with a hyperspecialization in Facebook Applications , but besides that I am also the system administrator and webmaster for all the websites we run , which there are a lot .
Nothing at work is new to me , even though I am entry level.After talking with my boss about it , we made it official .
My starting salary was not over $ 35,000 .
As a High School graduate with no degree ( yet ) , I thought this was nice , but as I looked back I remember talks of $ 50k-60k starting salary .
Right now , I am satisfied with my salary , only because I 'm single and still have my parents paying for things , which is soon to change .
As only being in the business for almost 6 months , I 'm not trying to ask for more money , when I would rather work hard now and ask later .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a fellow South Carolinian, I have recently come in the software development market.
As an intern in school I made $13/hr with close to 25 hours a week.
After doing some thinking I decided to change it up with school full-time to part-time and start working full-time instead.
As I approached my boss about this, he was thrilled, because to him I was the golden boy that is helping the company a lot.
By job title I am a PHP/MySQL programmer with a hyperspecialization in Facebook Applications, but besides that I am also the system administrator and webmaster for all the websites we run, which there are a lot.
Nothing at work is new to me, even though I am entry level.After talking with my boss about it, we made it official.
My starting salary was not over $35,000.
As a High School graduate with no degree(yet), I thought this was nice, but as I looked back I remember talks of $50k-60k starting salary.
Right now, I am satisfied with my salary, only because I'm single and still have my parents paying for things, which is soon to change.
As only being in the business for almost 6 months, I'm not trying to ask for more money, when I would rather work hard now and ask later.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905518</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>Kjella</author>
	<datestamp>1264525740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In 1999 the dotcom craze and y2k craze was absurd, IT people were golden. I remember running into an intro IT class in 1998 on first day, the auditorium was beyond packed and people would stand in all the aisles and up back and even down front. Naturally, so many people felt committed because they'd wasted a year or more on it by the time the bubbles were bursting. It's like the stock market, when everyone says buy buy buy and that this'll grow into heaven is the time to get out.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In 1999 the dotcom craze and y2k craze was absurd , IT people were golden .
I remember running into an intro IT class in 1998 on first day , the auditorium was beyond packed and people would stand in all the aisles and up back and even down front .
Naturally , so many people felt committed because they 'd wasted a year or more on it by the time the bubbles were bursting .
It 's like the stock market , when everyone says buy buy buy and that this 'll grow into heaven is the time to get out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In 1999 the dotcom craze and y2k craze was absurd, IT people were golden.
I remember running into an intro IT class in 1998 on first day, the auditorium was beyond packed and people would stand in all the aisles and up back and even down front.
Naturally, so many people felt committed because they'd wasted a year or more on it by the time the bubbles were bursting.
It's like the stock market, when everyone says buy buy buy and that this'll grow into heaven is the time to get out.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905742</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>cerberusss</author>
	<datestamp>1264526520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p>Hello there!<br>Please refer to your opening on job posting site. I, Rajesh Sharma, would like to apply for the job.[...]<b>My hourly rates are $ 9 USD.</b> </p></div><p>We all like to pretend this isn't here and it isn't happening, but I would say conservatively half the job market has disappeared in 10 years due to this currency/standard of living imbalance.</p></div><p>There's another reality: it's really, really hard to manage projects in India. I have tried this for a number of projects, and have learned the following things:</p><ul><li>A day before the deadline, Rajesh will ask for more time</li><li>Halfway through the project, Rajesh will ask for more money</li><li>Rajesh will not give the source, as was agreed</li><li>Rajesh will not use unit tests, or Subversion, as was agreed</li><li>Rajesh cannot be bothered to provide an estimate or a planning</li><li>Rajesh will take on other projects and give priority to those before yours</li><li>Rajesh actually has a day job and just does projects on the side</li><li>Rajesh will tell you he takes a holiday for three weeks, starting tomorrow</li><li>Rajesh has a wedding of a brother, a pregnant sister, a sick father, etc and cannot make the planning</li><li>Rajesh will ask for more money at the end of the project</li><li>Rajesh cannot be reached because he lost his mobile</li><li>Rajesh cannot be reached because his mobile was stolen</li><li>Rajesh cannot be reached because his mobile its battery is empty</li><li>Rajesh cannot be reached because the e-mail server is down</li><li>Rajesh cannot be reached because the internet is down</li></ul><p>Each and every project, I have had the above things. There are lots of ways around the above, but the main thing is that it's very hard.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hello there ! Please refer to your opening on job posting site .
I , Rajesh Sharma , would like to apply for the job. [ .. .
] My hourly rates are $ 9 USD .
We all like to pretend this is n't here and it is n't happening , but I would say conservatively half the job market has disappeared in 10 years due to this currency/standard of living imbalance.There 's another reality : it 's really , really hard to manage projects in India .
I have tried this for a number of projects , and have learned the following things : A day before the deadline , Rajesh will ask for more timeHalfway through the project , Rajesh will ask for more moneyRajesh will not give the source , as was agreedRajesh will not use unit tests , or Subversion , as was agreedRajesh can not be bothered to provide an estimate or a planningRajesh will take on other projects and give priority to those before yoursRajesh actually has a day job and just does projects on the sideRajesh will tell you he takes a holiday for three weeks , starting tomorrowRajesh has a wedding of a brother , a pregnant sister , a sick father , etc and can not make the planningRajesh will ask for more money at the end of the projectRajesh can not be reached because he lost his mobileRajesh can not be reached because his mobile was stolenRajesh can not be reached because his mobile its battery is emptyRajesh can not be reached because the e-mail server is downRajesh can not be reached because the internet is downEach and every project , I have had the above things .
There are lots of ways around the above , but the main thing is that it 's very hard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hello there!Please refer to your opening on job posting site.
I, Rajesh Sharma, would like to apply for the job.[...
]My hourly rates are $ 9 USD.
We all like to pretend this isn't here and it isn't happening, but I would say conservatively half the job market has disappeared in 10 years due to this currency/standard of living imbalance.There's another reality: it's really, really hard to manage projects in India.
I have tried this for a number of projects, and have learned the following things:A day before the deadline, Rajesh will ask for more timeHalfway through the project, Rajesh will ask for more moneyRajesh will not give the source, as was agreedRajesh will not use unit tests, or Subversion, as was agreedRajesh cannot be bothered to provide an estimate or a planningRajesh will take on other projects and give priority to those before yoursRajesh actually has a day job and just does projects on the sideRajesh will tell you he takes a holiday for three weeks, starting tomorrowRajesh has a wedding of a brother, a pregnant sister, a sick father, etc and cannot make the planningRajesh will ask for more money at the end of the projectRajesh cannot be reached because he lost his mobileRajesh cannot be reached because his mobile was stolenRajesh cannot be reached because his mobile its battery is emptyRajesh cannot be reached because the e-mail server is downRajesh cannot be reached because the internet is downEach and every project, I have had the above things.
There are lots of ways around the above, but the main thing is that it's very hard.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904318</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904172</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264520820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is why languages like Java, C#, and VB need to die. It seems that nowadays, these are all that is taught at colleges. My company hires these "dudes" right out of school, and they suck. We do real-time embedded systems. We use "real" languages (predictable languages) like C, C++, Ada, Fortran, and assembly. We do use scripting languages for tools and build systems. These "dudes" come in and think because they are lost, it is the language's fault, or the coding conventions are to restricted, or there is too much process, or the testing is too much. I try to help them because they don't learn thing like real-time or fault-tolerant in school, and all they ever uses were kiddie languages. But they won't listen.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is why languages like Java , C # , and VB need to die .
It seems that nowadays , these are all that is taught at colleges .
My company hires these " dudes " right out of school , and they suck .
We do real-time embedded systems .
We use " real " languages ( predictable languages ) like C , C + + , Ada , Fortran , and assembly .
We do use scripting languages for tools and build systems .
These " dudes " come in and think because they are lost , it is the language 's fault , or the coding conventions are to restricted , or there is too much process , or the testing is too much .
I try to help them because they do n't learn thing like real-time or fault-tolerant in school , and all they ever uses were kiddie languages .
But they wo n't listen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is why languages like Java, C#, and VB need to die.
It seems that nowadays, these are all that is taught at colleges.
My company hires these "dudes" right out of school, and they suck.
We do real-time embedded systems.
We use "real" languages (predictable languages) like C, C++, Ada, Fortran, and assembly.
We do use scripting languages for tools and build systems.
These "dudes" come in and think because they are lost, it is the language's fault, or the coding conventions are to restricted, or there is too much process, or the testing is too much.
I try to help them because they don't learn thing like real-time or fault-tolerant in school, and all they ever uses were kiddie languages.
But they won't listen.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903562</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905916</id>
	<title>Charisma ... Politics and selling yourself..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264527120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can't say this enough.</p><p>I've worked at nothing but smaller 5-10 man startup companies, i've picked my horses carefully and taken low income in exchange for ownership.  As the companies have become profitable (again, choosing your horse is paramount) I've managed to make more money in a year than most programmers I know make in 4-5 years.</p><p>It has had little to do with magic programming skills, it has more to do with being smart about my business dealings, and making sure i put myself where i'm absolutely needed.   I don't bitch and moan about how unhappy I am, i stay positive and i re-assure my partners i'm in the project for the long haul.  I have a couple programmers working for me, and both are better than me and at this point I write code only when i really want to.</p><p>What I find amusing is when people think they don't need to get into the business side, their skills will carry them through and if their employeer doesn't recognize that, well fuck them I'm going to get another employer.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)  I love programmers like that, they make great employees and seldom ask questions of why I'm driving a BMW and am a shitty programmer, while they are barely making their rent and can't seem to keep their heads afloat financially.</p><p>But to answer your question, there is not just lot of money to be made in programming.. there is fortunes to be made, if you're smart about it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I ca n't say this enough.I 've worked at nothing but smaller 5-10 man startup companies , i 've picked my horses carefully and taken low income in exchange for ownership .
As the companies have become profitable ( again , choosing your horse is paramount ) I 've managed to make more money in a year than most programmers I know make in 4-5 years.It has had little to do with magic programming skills , it has more to do with being smart about my business dealings , and making sure i put myself where i 'm absolutely needed .
I do n't bitch and moan about how unhappy I am , i stay positive and i re-assure my partners i 'm in the project for the long haul .
I have a couple programmers working for me , and both are better than me and at this point I write code only when i really want to.What I find amusing is when people think they do n't need to get into the business side , their skills will carry them through and if their employeer does n't recognize that , well fuck them I 'm going to get another employer .
: ) I love programmers like that , they make great employees and seldom ask questions of why I 'm driving a BMW and am a shitty programmer , while they are barely making their rent and ca n't seem to keep their heads afloat financially.But to answer your question , there is not just lot of money to be made in programming.. there is fortunes to be made , if you 're smart about it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can't say this enough.I've worked at nothing but smaller 5-10 man startup companies, i've picked my horses carefully and taken low income in exchange for ownership.
As the companies have become profitable (again, choosing your horse is paramount) I've managed to make more money in a year than most programmers I know make in 4-5 years.It has had little to do with magic programming skills, it has more to do with being smart about my business dealings, and making sure i put myself where i'm absolutely needed.
I don't bitch and moan about how unhappy I am, i stay positive and i re-assure my partners i'm in the project for the long haul.
I have a couple programmers working for me, and both are better than me and at this point I write code only when i really want to.What I find amusing is when people think they don't need to get into the business side, their skills will carry them through and if their employeer doesn't recognize that, well fuck them I'm going to get another employer.
:)  I love programmers like that, they make great employees and seldom ask questions of why I'm driving a BMW and am a shitty programmer, while they are barely making their rent and can't seem to keep their heads afloat financially.But to answer your question, there is not just lot of money to be made in programming.. there is fortunes to be made, if you're smart about it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904042</id>
	<title>Re:No.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264520340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Even then, it's not lucrative since you're making at least $10/hour less than your counterpart in North America.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Even then , it 's not lucrative since you 're making at least $ 10/hour less than your counterpart in North America .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even then, it's not lucrative since you're making at least $10/hour less than your counterpart in North America.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903454</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908740</id>
	<title>Re:I don't have a degree...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264538580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>and 90K in DC is<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... the lower end of the spectrum.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and 90K in DC is ... the lower end of the spectrum .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and 90K in DC is ... the lower end of the spectrum.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904010</id>
	<title>Re:For Engineers maybe</title>
	<author>Tyr\_7BE</author>
	<datestamp>1264520220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yep.  I went through comp eng at Waterloo (before the program started circling the bowl these last 5 years or so) and for most of my class, $60k was settling.  I know people who started at 6 figures.  Lucky bastards.</p><p>Are the differences south of the border really that significant?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yep .
I went through comp eng at Waterloo ( before the program started circling the bowl these last 5 years or so ) and for most of my class , $ 60k was settling .
I know people who started at 6 figures .
Lucky bastards.Are the differences south of the border really that significant ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yep.
I went through comp eng at Waterloo (before the program started circling the bowl these last 5 years or so) and for most of my class, $60k was settling.
I know people who started at 6 figures.
Lucky bastards.Are the differences south of the border really that significant?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903590</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904900</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264523400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Or any other career for that matter . . . do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money . . . ?"</p></div><p>Well - 49\% of premeds say that they choose medicine for the money. http://www.studentdoctor.net/2008/04/why-study-medicine-pre-meds-not-in-it-for-the-money-survey-says/</p><p>Consider yourself warned, next time a doc wants to take a scalpel close to your body!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Or any other career for that matter .
. .
do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon , who is , " in it for the money .
. .
? " Well - 49 \ % of premeds say that they choose medicine for the money .
http : //www.studentdoctor.net/2008/04/why-study-medicine-pre-meds-not-in-it-for-the-money-survey-says/Consider yourself warned , next time a doc wants to take a scalpel close to your body !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or any other career for that matter .
. .
do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money .
. .
?"Well - 49\% of premeds say that they choose medicine for the money.
http://www.studentdoctor.net/2008/04/why-study-medicine-pre-meds-not-in-it-for-the-money-survey-says/Consider yourself warned, next time a doc wants to take a scalpel close to your body!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903478</id>
	<title>Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>purpledinoz</author>
	<datestamp>1264518120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I know some developers that are highly specialized in low-level DSP programming, and they make plenty. Also, if you are also responsible for architectural decisions and architectural design, you make more. I don't know many people who are just programmers, but I would have to assume they make less. My advice for programmers is take on more responsibilities and/or try to become a specialist. Unfortunately, there is a large supply of programmers, probably because the barrier to learning is quite low compared to say, FPGA design and development.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I know some developers that are highly specialized in low-level DSP programming , and they make plenty .
Also , if you are also responsible for architectural decisions and architectural design , you make more .
I do n't know many people who are just programmers , but I would have to assume they make less .
My advice for programmers is take on more responsibilities and/or try to become a specialist .
Unfortunately , there is a large supply of programmers , probably because the barrier to learning is quite low compared to say , FPGA design and development .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know some developers that are highly specialized in low-level DSP programming, and they make plenty.
Also, if you are also responsible for architectural decisions and architectural design, you make more.
I don't know many people who are just programmers, but I would have to assume they make less.
My advice for programmers is take on more responsibilities and/or try to become a specialist.
Unfortunately, there is a large supply of programmers, probably because the barrier to learning is quite low compared to say, FPGA design and development.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907128</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperspecialization</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264531920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>A real programmer shouldn't care much about the platform.</p> </div><p>WTF? Why are you working in IT at all?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>A real programmer should n't care much about the platform .
WTF ? Why are you working in IT at all ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A real programmer shouldn't care much about the platform.
WTF? Why are you working in IT at all?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903590</id>
	<title>For Engineers maybe</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264518600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That actually seems about right for computer/software <b>engineers</b> in Canada.  Most "programmers" though are technical college grads or BSc Computing Science, and end up being supervised by engineers.  For the typically programmer, those numbers seem totally high.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That actually seems about right for computer/software engineers in Canada .
Most " programmers " though are technical college grads or BSc Computing Science , and end up being supervised by engineers .
For the typically programmer , those numbers seem totally high .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That actually seems about right for computer/software engineers in Canada.
Most "programmers" though are technical college grads or BSc Computing Science, and end up being supervised by engineers.
For the typically programmer, those numbers seem totally high.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904804</id>
	<title>Maybe not for the programmers, but...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264522980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The coffee vendors usually do good business with programmers around!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The coffee vendors usually do good business with programmers around !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The coffee vendors usually do good business with programmers around!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907976</id>
	<title>Re:Resume</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264535400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Come back when you can add "know how to solve problems" to the list.   Who gives a crap what languages you know?   That I can teach you.    That my monkey can teach you...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Come back when you can add " know how to solve problems " to the list .
Who gives a crap what languages you know ?
That I can teach you .
That my monkey can teach you.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Come back when you can add "know how to solve problems" to the list.
Who gives a crap what languages you know?
That I can teach you.
That my monkey can teach you...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903598</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905478</id>
	<title>Re:Putting a dollar figure down is problematic</title>
	<author>notbob</author>
	<datestamp>1264525620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Having lived in Cincinnati most of my life and left and come back, $60k/yr here you can definitely live on, it's astounding how much more expensive elsewhere is without a huge pay increase.</p><p>I remember having a decent car / condo on $60k/yr.</p><p>But this place sucks for weather and gets more dangerous every year without fail.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Having lived in Cincinnati most of my life and left and come back , $ 60k/yr here you can definitely live on , it 's astounding how much more expensive elsewhere is without a huge pay increase.I remember having a decent car / condo on $ 60k/yr.But this place sucks for weather and gets more dangerous every year without fail .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having lived in Cincinnati most of my life and left and come back, $60k/yr here you can definitely live on, it's astounding how much more expensive elsewhere is without a huge pay increase.I remember having a decent car / condo on $60k/yr.But this place sucks for weather and gets more dangerous every year without fail.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903500</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905402</id>
	<title>Re:Not so much</title>
	<author>NevarMore</author>
	<datestamp>1264525320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>News to me. I was a team lead and bailed on it.</p><p>I was leading a GREAT team, but the extra stress of having to lead guys with 5-30 years of experience more than I had, while dealing with the requests from a CTO at an aggressive start up wasn't worth the extra money. I left and got a raise to go back to being a regular line-grunt developer. I now work under a lead that is every bit as stressed as I was.</p><p>So I disagree, moving up to a lead is not necessarily the best promotion to get.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>News to me .
I was a team lead and bailed on it.I was leading a GREAT team , but the extra stress of having to lead guys with 5-30 years of experience more than I had , while dealing with the requests from a CTO at an aggressive start up was n't worth the extra money .
I left and got a raise to go back to being a regular line-grunt developer .
I now work under a lead that is every bit as stressed as I was.So I disagree , moving up to a lead is not necessarily the best promotion to get .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>News to me.
I was a team lead and bailed on it.I was leading a GREAT team, but the extra stress of having to lead guys with 5-30 years of experience more than I had, while dealing with the requests from a CTO at an aggressive start up wasn't worth the extra money.
I left and got a raise to go back to being a regular line-grunt developer.
I now work under a lead that is every bit as stressed as I was.So I disagree, moving up to a lead is not necessarily the best promotion to get.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908150</id>
	<title>Re:I don't have a degree...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264536000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No degree here either, and I make a little bit more than that (CA$ 100k) in Vancouver, BC.</p><p>Oh, and I'm not even a citizen or permanent resident.</p><p>(cue the "cheapo uneducated immigrants stealing our jobs" rants here)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No degree here either , and I make a little bit more than that ( CA $ 100k ) in Vancouver , BC.Oh , and I 'm not even a citizen or permanent resident .
( cue the " cheapo uneducated immigrants stealing our jobs " rants here )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No degree here either, and I make a little bit more than that (CA$ 100k) in Vancouver, BC.Oh, and I'm not even a citizen or permanent resident.
(cue the "cheapo uneducated immigrants stealing our jobs" rants here)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906380</id>
	<title>Where do they get these figures?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264528860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've got 25 years experience, I'm genuinely good at what I do... and I'm making $80K a year writing software (I have made as much as $50/hour as a consultant.) Although I am slightly underpaid, I'm pretty sure there aren't a lot of six-figure salary positions out there. If anybody knows of any such positions, I'd sure be willing to send them a resume! I suspect the salaries they are quoting are only in places like Manhattan, where the cheapest apartment runs $3000/month -- more than my current mortgage on a 4-bedroom luxury view home.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've got 25 years experience , I 'm genuinely good at what I do... and I 'm making $ 80K a year writing software ( I have made as much as $ 50/hour as a consultant .
) Although I am slightly underpaid , I 'm pretty sure there are n't a lot of six-figure salary positions out there .
If anybody knows of any such positions , I 'd sure be willing to send them a resume !
I suspect the salaries they are quoting are only in places like Manhattan , where the cheapest apartment runs $ 3000/month -- more than my current mortgage on a 4-bedroom luxury view home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've got 25 years experience, I'm genuinely good at what I do... and I'm making $80K a year writing software (I have made as much as $50/hour as a consultant.
) Although I am slightly underpaid, I'm pretty sure there aren't a lot of six-figure salary positions out there.
If anybody knows of any such positions, I'd sure be willing to send them a resume!
I suspect the salaries they are quoting are only in places like Manhattan, where the cheapest apartment runs $3000/month -- more than my current mortgage on a 4-bedroom luxury view home.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903446</id>
	<title>Capitalism will find a way</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264517940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To grind every sort of worker down into poverty. The only solution is international socialist revolution.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To grind every sort of worker down into poverty .
The only solution is international socialist revolution .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To grind every sort of worker down into poverty.
The only solution is international socialist revolution.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908024</id>
	<title>I call BS</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264535580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Started professionally in 1998 - salary 56k.</p><p>Been with same company for 12 years - current salary base 155k  plus a performance bonus of ~60k.</p><p>Want more money? Be better then everyone else.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Started professionally in 1998 - salary 56k.Been with same company for 12 years - current salary base 155k plus a performance bonus of ~ 60k.Want more money ?
Be better then everyone else .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Started professionally in 1998 - salary 56k.Been with same company for 12 years - current salary base 155k  plus a performance bonus of ~60k.Want more money?
Be better then everyone else.
:)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904690</id>
	<title>Yes.  The industry needs good programmers.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264522560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes.

I graduated from University of Wisconsin with a Bachelors degree in Computer Sciences.  I had internships for two summers before graduating.  I had five interviews with top tier software companies, and got five offers, ranging from $65k to $85k, and all including excellent benefits.

Do your homework.  Do well in classes.  Do well in an algorithms class since it gives you one of the most useful skills you'll need in an interview.  Get an internship.  Practice interviews with friends and share your experiences.  Interview often, you have little to lose.  Get a job on campus if you can't get an internship, so you can get a reference from a PhD the next year.  Those references go a very long way.

Oh yea, and make sure you learn about parallel programming.  It's important these days.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes .
I graduated from University of Wisconsin with a Bachelors degree in Computer Sciences .
I had internships for two summers before graduating .
I had five interviews with top tier software companies , and got five offers , ranging from $ 65k to $ 85k , and all including excellent benefits .
Do your homework .
Do well in classes .
Do well in an algorithms class since it gives you one of the most useful skills you 'll need in an interview .
Get an internship .
Practice interviews with friends and share your experiences .
Interview often , you have little to lose .
Get a job on campus if you ca n't get an internship , so you can get a reference from a PhD the next year .
Those references go a very long way .
Oh yea , and make sure you learn about parallel programming .
It 's important these days .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes.
I graduated from University of Wisconsin with a Bachelors degree in Computer Sciences.
I had internships for two summers before graduating.
I had five interviews with top tier software companies, and got five offers, ranging from $65k to $85k, and all including excellent benefits.
Do your homework.
Do well in classes.
Do well in an algorithms class since it gives you one of the most useful skills you'll need in an interview.
Get an internship.
Practice interviews with friends and share your experiences.
Interview often, you have little to lose.
Get a job on campus if you can't get an internship, so you can get a reference from a PhD the next year.
Those references go a very long way.
Oh yea, and make sure you learn about parallel programming.
It's important these days.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906738</id>
	<title>Try DoD Civilian...</title>
	<author>Frosty Piss</author>
	<datestamp>1264530240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In a similar circular problem, there are in fact *MANY* civilian openings in IT at a variety of Air Force bases, and the GS level is indeed generally up in the 60K range. The trick is that most of these jobs are only open to "Internal" candidates, which means not only must you be a current DoD employee, but also already have IT experience. But trust me, I troll the Internal Job Board almost everyday, there are plenty 60k+ IT jobs available. 60k + paid holidays + no overtime + excellent medical... Hard to beat "Civil Service", at least Air Force style...</htmltext>
<tokenext>In a similar circular problem , there are in fact * MANY * civilian openings in IT at a variety of Air Force bases , and the GS level is indeed generally up in the 60K range .
The trick is that most of these jobs are only open to " Internal " candidates , which means not only must you be a current DoD employee , but also already have IT experience .
But trust me , I troll the Internal Job Board almost everyday , there are plenty 60k + IT jobs available .
60k + paid holidays + no overtime + excellent medical... Hard to beat " Civil Service " , at least Air Force style.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In a similar circular problem, there are in fact *MANY* civilian openings in IT at a variety of Air Force bases, and the GS level is indeed generally up in the 60K range.
The trick is that most of these jobs are only open to "Internal" candidates, which means not only must you be a current DoD employee, but also already have IT experience.
But trust me, I troll the Internal Job Board almost everyday, there are plenty 60k+ IT jobs available.
60k + paid holidays + no overtime + excellent medical... Hard to beat "Civil Service", at least Air Force style...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905436</id>
	<title>Re:Salary</title>
	<author>Kozz</author>
	<datestamp>1264525440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're saying you're  primarily a Perl programmer with a little over 10yrs experience and found companies that wanted to pay you not just $35k-45k, but $80k and up???  I'm gobsmacked.  I've got Perl skills (intermediate, anyhow) on my resume with other skills of course, but rarely have I found companies that even had any interest in the Perl skills.  Even when job searching, I rarely found any listing that mentioned the need for the language.</p><p>Don't get me wrong, I'd love to write Perl for a living, but I'd never seen any (even entry-level) positions focused on that language.  Have I been looking in the wrong places, or was Perl not strictly listed as a prerequisite skill on the job listings you'd visited?</p><p>(disclosure: I have a bachelor's degree from a top-10 CS dept in US, and am thankful to be gainfully employed, but they just want me for my Java)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're saying you 're primarily a Perl programmer with a little over 10yrs experience and found companies that wanted to pay you not just $ 35k-45k , but $ 80k and up ? ? ?
I 'm gobsmacked .
I 've got Perl skills ( intermediate , anyhow ) on my resume with other skills of course , but rarely have I found companies that even had any interest in the Perl skills .
Even when job searching , I rarely found any listing that mentioned the need for the language.Do n't get me wrong , I 'd love to write Perl for a living , but I 'd never seen any ( even entry-level ) positions focused on that language .
Have I been looking in the wrong places , or was Perl not strictly listed as a prerequisite skill on the job listings you 'd visited ?
( disclosure : I have a bachelor 's degree from a top-10 CS dept in US , and am thankful to be gainfully employed , but they just want me for my Java )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're saying you're  primarily a Perl programmer with a little over 10yrs experience and found companies that wanted to pay you not just $35k-45k, but $80k and up???
I'm gobsmacked.
I've got Perl skills (intermediate, anyhow) on my resume with other skills of course, but rarely have I found companies that even had any interest in the Perl skills.
Even when job searching, I rarely found any listing that mentioned the need for the language.Don't get me wrong, I'd love to write Perl for a living, but I'd never seen any (even entry-level) positions focused on that language.
Have I been looking in the wrong places, or was Perl not strictly listed as a prerequisite skill on the job listings you'd visited?
(disclosure: I have a bachelor's degree from a top-10 CS dept in US, and am thankful to be gainfully employed, but they just want me for my Java)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903916</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906632</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>cgenman</author>
	<datestamp>1264529820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This.  Programming enjoyed a brief stint of ridiculously high salaries in the 90's, due to imbalance between demand and supply.  In certain industries, like Legal or Medical work, this imbalance is maintained by very high schooling requirements.  To be a good coder, you don't even need to have gone to school, so it's only natural that the salary would eventually come more in line with other professional work.</p><p>Also, to be a good programmer you *have* to love it.  People don't become good coders because they're trying really hard at it.  They become good coders because when they go home at night, they're write more code.  When they wake up in the morning, they write more code.  When they have a question about how to cut out the noise from the upstairs neighbors, they write more code.  You need to think in it.  You need to want to learn other programming languages "just because it's fun."  Otherwise, your career is going to get stuck and your output will be middley at best.  Or, like so many others before, you'll jump ship to something you actually enjoy doing.</p><p>If you just want money, become a finance banker or a stock trader.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This .
Programming enjoyed a brief stint of ridiculously high salaries in the 90 's , due to imbalance between demand and supply .
In certain industries , like Legal or Medical work , this imbalance is maintained by very high schooling requirements .
To be a good coder , you do n't even need to have gone to school , so it 's only natural that the salary would eventually come more in line with other professional work.Also , to be a good programmer you * have * to love it .
People do n't become good coders because they 're trying really hard at it .
They become good coders because when they go home at night , they 're write more code .
When they wake up in the morning , they write more code .
When they have a question about how to cut out the noise from the upstairs neighbors , they write more code .
You need to think in it .
You need to want to learn other programming languages " just because it 's fun .
" Otherwise , your career is going to get stuck and your output will be middley at best .
Or , like so many others before , you 'll jump ship to something you actually enjoy doing.If you just want money , become a finance banker or a stock trader .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This.
Programming enjoyed a brief stint of ridiculously high salaries in the 90's, due to imbalance between demand and supply.
In certain industries, like Legal or Medical work, this imbalance is maintained by very high schooling requirements.
To be a good coder, you don't even need to have gone to school, so it's only natural that the salary would eventually come more in line with other professional work.Also, to be a good programmer you *have* to love it.
People don't become good coders because they're trying really hard at it.
They become good coders because when they go home at night, they're write more code.
When they wake up in the morning, they write more code.
When they have a question about how to cut out the noise from the upstairs neighbors, they write more code.
You need to think in it.
You need to want to learn other programming languages "just because it's fun.
"  Otherwise, your career is going to get stuck and your output will be middley at best.
Or, like so many others before, you'll jump ship to something you actually enjoy doing.If you just want money, become a finance banker or a stock trader.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903452</id>
	<title>Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264518000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There are a lot of ways to look at the figures, but only the most skewed ones come up with starting salaries approaching $60,000 annually...</p></div><p>Not if you have a magic time machine back to 1999.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are a lot of ways to look at the figures , but only the most skewed ones come up with starting salaries approaching $ 60,000 annually...Not if you have a magic time machine back to 1999 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are a lot of ways to look at the figures, but only the most skewed ones come up with starting salaries approaching $60,000 annually...Not if you have a magic time machine back to 1999.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904452</id>
	<title>Plenty of money to be made.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264521720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Go to whatever site you want ( dice.com for example ) and type in "trading c++" and there will be many jobs over 100k, with 10 years experience in a specialized field like low latency or trading algorithms and you can make 200-300k/year.  We ( Simplex Investments ) can't hire people fast enough and that is pretty much the experience for prop trading shops.  The challenges are that you have to have excellent communication skills because you'll need to talk to traders who aren't technical and don't have a lot of time to clue you in and they tend to be very blunt.  You also have to be willing to work in the trading environment and that will depend if you see that as "stealing money from the unknowing public" or "providing a useful service to the public by adding liquidity to the markets".  You also have to be willing to work in a place that has this kind of activity like Chicago or NY but really there are more and more firms sprouting up all over the place that do the same thing.  The work will be challenging in the sense that the faster you can implement software, the lower latency you can make it, the more money your firm will make.  The environments tend to be like Agile/XP on steroids, multiple releases per day.  It isn't the place to be if you want to do more formal software development, for example, there are no specs.  You will also need to be able to write really solid code because most places don't have formal QA departments or support groups, all of that is on you and the traders involved.  And you have to know languages that can be used for latency so C/C++, Java, C# type of stuff is being used, maybe you can do some Python but only for gui.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Go to whatever site you want ( dice.com for example ) and type in " trading c + + " and there will be many jobs over 100k , with 10 years experience in a specialized field like low latency or trading algorithms and you can make 200-300k/year .
We ( Simplex Investments ) ca n't hire people fast enough and that is pretty much the experience for prop trading shops .
The challenges are that you have to have excellent communication skills because you 'll need to talk to traders who are n't technical and do n't have a lot of time to clue you in and they tend to be very blunt .
You also have to be willing to work in the trading environment and that will depend if you see that as " stealing money from the unknowing public " or " providing a useful service to the public by adding liquidity to the markets " .
You also have to be willing to work in a place that has this kind of activity like Chicago or NY but really there are more and more firms sprouting up all over the place that do the same thing .
The work will be challenging in the sense that the faster you can implement software , the lower latency you can make it , the more money your firm will make .
The environments tend to be like Agile/XP on steroids , multiple releases per day .
It is n't the place to be if you want to do more formal software development , for example , there are no specs .
You will also need to be able to write really solid code because most places do n't have formal QA departments or support groups , all of that is on you and the traders involved .
And you have to know languages that can be used for latency so C/C + + , Java , C # type of stuff is being used , maybe you can do some Python but only for gui .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Go to whatever site you want ( dice.com for example ) and type in "trading c++" and there will be many jobs over 100k, with 10 years experience in a specialized field like low latency or trading algorithms and you can make 200-300k/year.
We ( Simplex Investments ) can't hire people fast enough and that is pretty much the experience for prop trading shops.
The challenges are that you have to have excellent communication skills because you'll need to talk to traders who aren't technical and don't have a lot of time to clue you in and they tend to be very blunt.
You also have to be willing to work in the trading environment and that will depend if you see that as "stealing money from the unknowing public" or "providing a useful service to the public by adding liquidity to the markets".
You also have to be willing to work in a place that has this kind of activity like Chicago or NY but really there are more and more firms sprouting up all over the place that do the same thing.
The work will be challenging in the sense that the faster you can implement software, the lower latency you can make it, the more money your firm will make.
The environments tend to be like Agile/XP on steroids, multiple releases per day.
It isn't the place to be if you want to do more formal software development, for example, there are no specs.
You will also need to be able to write really solid code because most places don't have formal QA departments or support groups, all of that is on you and the traders involved.
And you have to know languages that can be used for latency so C/C++, Java, C# type of stuff is being used, maybe you can do some Python but only for gui.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907894</id>
	<title>Re:the key to earning well in this field</title>
	<author>infinite9</author>
	<datestamp>1264535100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>People want to think of the office as family because we're social creatures.</i> </p><p>Make no mistake.  This is attitude carefully crafted propaganda designed to keep you from changing jobs.  If you hear your coworkers repeating it, they've been brainwashed.  Your employer care about you as far as how much money you make over and above what it costs to have you there.  They'll love you like a brother until their estimation of your net worth to the company goes negative, then you'll be thrown out with the rest of the outdated technology.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People want to think of the office as family because we 're social creatures .
Make no mistake .
This is attitude carefully crafted propaganda designed to keep you from changing jobs .
If you hear your coworkers repeating it , they 've been brainwashed .
Your employer care about you as far as how much money you make over and above what it costs to have you there .
They 'll love you like a brother until their estimation of your net worth to the company goes negative , then you 'll be thrown out with the rest of the outdated technology .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People want to think of the office as family because we're social creatures.
Make no mistake.
This is attitude carefully crafted propaganda designed to keep you from changing jobs.
If you hear your coworkers repeating it, they've been brainwashed.
Your employer care about you as far as how much money you make over and above what it costs to have you there.
They'll love you like a brother until their estimation of your net worth to the company goes negative, then you'll be thrown out with the rest of the outdated technology.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30911134</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264506000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money . . . ?"</p></div></blockquote><p>Better that than having them removed by an unlicensed Vietnamese immigrant who also offers cheap breast implants on the sly, "because it's so much fun to do...."</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon , who is , " in it for the money .
. .
? " Better that than having them removed by an unlicensed Vietnamese immigrant who also offers cheap breast implants on the sly , " because it 's so much fun to do.... "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money .
. .
?"Better that than having them removed by an unlicensed Vietnamese immigrant who also offers cheap breast implants on the sly, "because it's so much fun to do...."
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907308</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1264532640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>All the more reason to keep the code here in North America, and keep it in the family, so to speak, as<br>someone over seas will have no problem having an extra line of code hidden somewhere tagging all the cc nos passing by your website, where as someone here knows they are accountable and might have a bigger deterrent.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>All the more reason to keep the code here in North America , and keep it in the family , so to speak , assomeone over seas will have no problem having an extra line of code hidden somewhere tagging all the cc nos passing by your website , where as someone here knows they are accountable and might have a bigger deterrent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All the more reason to keep the code here in North America, and keep it in the family, so to speak, assomeone over seas will have no problem having an extra line of code hidden somewhere tagging all the cc nos passing by your website, where as someone here knows they are accountable and might have a bigger deterrent.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905742</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905328</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>Kjella</author>
	<datestamp>1264525080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Or any other career for that matter... do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money...?"</p></div><p>I'd certainly want it to be true for my dentist. The other options are far more disturbing...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Or any other career for that matter... do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon , who is , " in it for the money... ?
" I 'd certainly want it to be true for my dentist .
The other options are far more disturbing.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or any other career for that matter... do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money...?
"I'd certainly want it to be true for my dentist.
The other options are far more disturbing...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906186</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>avandesande</author>
	<datestamp>1264528200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the average programmer starts is making 60K that means that half of them make less than that.<br>Thank you for making the maths work<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the average programmer starts is making 60K that means that half of them make less than that.Thank you for making the maths work ; - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the average programmer starts is making 60K that means that half of them make less than that.Thank you for making the maths work ;-)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903716</id>
	<title>Re:Putting a dollar figure down is problematic</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264519020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Seconded. I don't know anyone skilled making less than $75K programming in MA (ugh), including college grads.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Seconded .
I do n't know anyone skilled making less than $ 75K programming in MA ( ugh ) , including college grads .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seconded.
I don't know anyone skilled making less than $75K programming in MA (ugh), including college grads.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903500</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903566</id>
	<title>$60K seems very believable for starting salary</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264518480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That seems about right to me.  I've worked at several major (&gt;50K employees, including HP and IBM) and three small (~50-500 employees) companies, and the starting salaries for college grads with BS degrees are right in that range.</p><p>Of course it's geographically dependent.  I've never worked on either of the coasts, so my data points just apply to the middle of the country.  Also, it depends somewhat on what you studied in college.  Did you take classes in VLSI design to augment your programming?  In physics?  In CGI?  Things like that can let you land a job with better potential.</p><p>$100K is very common once you get some experience.  A few (but not too many) get up above $200K - rare but possible.  I'd call it a pretty lucrative career.  Nobody I work with appears to be having any particular hardship - they're all living in nice houses and driving decent cars.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That seems about right to me .
I 've worked at several major ( &gt; 50K employees , including HP and IBM ) and three small ( ~ 50-500 employees ) companies , and the starting salaries for college grads with BS degrees are right in that range.Of course it 's geographically dependent .
I 've never worked on either of the coasts , so my data points just apply to the middle of the country .
Also , it depends somewhat on what you studied in college .
Did you take classes in VLSI design to augment your programming ?
In physics ?
In CGI ?
Things like that can let you land a job with better potential. $ 100K is very common once you get some experience .
A few ( but not too many ) get up above $ 200K - rare but possible .
I 'd call it a pretty lucrative career .
Nobody I work with appears to be having any particular hardship - they 're all living in nice houses and driving decent cars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That seems about right to me.
I've worked at several major (&gt;50K employees, including HP and IBM) and three small (~50-500 employees) companies, and the starting salaries for college grads with BS degrees are right in that range.Of course it's geographically dependent.
I've never worked on either of the coasts, so my data points just apply to the middle of the country.
Also, it depends somewhat on what you studied in college.
Did you take classes in VLSI design to augment your programming?
In physics?
In CGI?
Things like that can let you land a job with better potential.$100K is very common once you get some experience.
A few (but not too many) get up above $200K - rare but possible.
I'd call it a pretty lucrative career.
Nobody I work with appears to be having any particular hardship - they're all living in nice houses and driving decent cars.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904738</id>
	<title>My Favorite Job Requirements</title>
	<author>Prien715</author>
	<datestamp>1264522740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I love the job requirements that are literally impossible to meet.  Like, 10 years of C# experience.  I wonder if they actually do any research or if they're just going the H1B fast track ("Hey, we couldn't find any American workers...but some guy in India says he's been doing C# for 20 years!"  "Wow, that's amazing!  Let's interview him!")</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I love the job requirements that are literally impossible to meet .
Like , 10 years of C # experience .
I wonder if they actually do any research or if they 're just going the H1B fast track ( " Hey , we could n't find any American workers...but some guy in India says he 's been doing C # for 20 years !
" " Wow , that 's amazing !
Let 's interview him !
" )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I love the job requirements that are literally impossible to meet.
Like, 10 years of C# experience.
I wonder if they actually do any research or if they're just going the H1B fast track ("Hey, we couldn't find any American workers...but some guy in India says he's been doing C# for 20 years!
"  "Wow, that's amazing!
Let's interview him!
")</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906342</id>
	<title>I think it depends...</title>
	<author>farmanb</author>
	<datestamp>1264528740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Walking out of school (May '09) with a 4 year degree and no more experience than some undergrad research and a couple internships, I was offered a $75k/year base salary (I think ~$82k total benefits) in Connecticut, although I'm not sure what the standard of living was like as I turned it down in favor of grad school.  Although, I've also heard of other people I knew and went to the same school with getting job offers in the $50-60k/yr range in other places.  In either case, I'm pretty sure that as far as science/engineering jobs go, CS probably had the potential for the highest (or at least pretty close to the highest) starting pay of any other degree programs.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Walking out of school ( May '09 ) with a 4 year degree and no more experience than some undergrad research and a couple internships , I was offered a $ 75k/year base salary ( I think ~ $ 82k total benefits ) in Connecticut , although I 'm not sure what the standard of living was like as I turned it down in favor of grad school .
Although , I 've also heard of other people I knew and went to the same school with getting job offers in the $ 50-60k/yr range in other places .
In either case , I 'm pretty sure that as far as science/engineering jobs go , CS probably had the potential for the highest ( or at least pretty close to the highest ) starting pay of any other degree programs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Walking out of school (May '09) with a 4 year degree and no more experience than some undergrad research and a couple internships, I was offered a $75k/year base salary (I think ~$82k total benefits) in Connecticut, although I'm not sure what the standard of living was like as I turned it down in favor of grad school.
Although, I've also heard of other people I knew and went to the same school with getting job offers in the $50-60k/yr range in other places.
In either case, I'm pretty sure that as far as science/engineering jobs go, CS probably had the potential for the highest (or at least pretty close to the highest) starting pay of any other degree programs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905582</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperspecialization</title>
	<author>RightSaidFred99</author>
	<datestamp>1264525920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Deal with the Devil?  You mean you "acted like a professional"?  Fanboism is really something for neckbeards who still live in their parent's basement and have an uber cool job managing 50 Linux machines for some local company.</p><p>A real programmer shouldn't care much about the platform.  Sure, I have my preferences from a technical perspective, but in the end I can do Java or C++ just as easily.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Deal with the Devil ?
You mean you " acted like a professional " ?
Fanboism is really something for neckbeards who still live in their parent 's basement and have an uber cool job managing 50 Linux machines for some local company.A real programmer should n't care much about the platform .
Sure , I have my preferences from a technical perspective , but in the end I can do Java or C + + just as easily .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Deal with the Devil?
You mean you "acted like a professional"?
Fanboism is really something for neckbeards who still live in their parent's basement and have an uber cool job managing 50 Linux machines for some local company.A real programmer shouldn't care much about the platform.
Sure, I have my preferences from a technical perspective, but in the end I can do Java or C++ just as easily.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903584</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906144</id>
	<title>Re:I don't have a degree...</title>
	<author>discojohnson</author>
	<datestamp>1264527960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's not that someone is young, it's that the new place is "old."  Out of the gate (military) I was able to get $80k, with no degree, as a DBA.  But I'm ambitious as hell and can sell myself.  No complaints.  Move forward just 3 years and it's over $100k and I still see no ceiling, other than the fact that I get work done and  frankly that scares people because I don't play the games.  And I'm not even 28 and leading my peers.  It's embedded in our society that you will make yourself, so make it or play the game along with everyone else.  But you also have to find an environment that is a good fit.  I can't steamroll at AT&amp;T or some other pretentious place, they're just too mechanical--but at a smaller organization where direction is needed I can thrive and it's directly shown in the bottom line.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not that someone is young , it 's that the new place is " old .
" Out of the gate ( military ) I was able to get $ 80k , with no degree , as a DBA .
But I 'm ambitious as hell and can sell myself .
No complaints .
Move forward just 3 years and it 's over $ 100k and I still see no ceiling , other than the fact that I get work done and frankly that scares people because I do n't play the games .
And I 'm not even 28 and leading my peers .
It 's embedded in our society that you will make yourself , so make it or play the game along with everyone else .
But you also have to find an environment that is a good fit .
I ca n't steamroll at AT&amp;T or some other pretentious place , they 're just too mechanical--but at a smaller organization where direction is needed I can thrive and it 's directly shown in the bottom line .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not that someone is young, it's that the new place is "old.
"  Out of the gate (military) I was able to get $80k, with no degree, as a DBA.
But I'm ambitious as hell and can sell myself.
No complaints.
Move forward just 3 years and it's over $100k and I still see no ceiling, other than the fact that I get work done and  frankly that scares people because I don't play the games.
And I'm not even 28 and leading my peers.
It's embedded in our society that you will make yourself, so make it or play the game along with everyone else.
But you also have to find an environment that is a good fit.
I can't steamroll at AT&amp;T or some other pretentious place, they're just too mechanical--but at a smaller organization where direction is needed I can thrive and it's directly shown in the bottom line.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904858</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907458</id>
	<title>bls stats tell the tale</title>
	<author>sneakyimp</author>
	<datestamp>1264533420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Computer Programmers are tracked separately from Computer Software Engineers - Applications or Computer Software Engineers - Systems.  And salaries vary by city, state, and industry.  You may find these links interesting:</p><p><a href="http://myplan.com/careers/db/4st.php?onet=15-1021.00" title="myplan.com">http://myplan.com/careers/db/4st.php?onet=15-1021.00</a> [myplan.com]<br><a href="http://myplan.com/careers/db/4st.php?onet=15-1031.00" title="myplan.com">http://myplan.com/careers/db/4st.php?onet=15-1031.00</a> [myplan.com]<br><a href="http://myplan.com/careers/db/4st.php?onet=15-1032.00" title="myplan.com">http://myplan.com/careers/db/4st.php?onet=15-1032.00</a> [myplan.com]</p><p>Be sure to hover over the "details" link as it will give you more detail on salary distribution.</p><p>As for the question "is it lucrative?" I think the answer is definitely yes as both salaries and total employment are increasing.  Especially when you check out the employment numbers for 'sewing machine operator'.  Despite gradually increasing salaries, total employment has shown a rapid decline:<br><a href="http://myplan.com/careers/db/5.php?onet=51-6031.00" title="myplan.com">http://myplan.com/careers/db/5.php?onet=51-6031.00</a> [myplan.com]</p><p>Or maybe check out dishwashers salaries:<br><a href="http://myplan.com/careers/db/4.php?onet=35-9021.00" title="myplan.com">http://myplan.com/careers/db/4.php?onet=35-9021.00</a> [myplan.com]</p><p>Less than $18k per year and employment is flat.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Computer Programmers are tracked separately from Computer Software Engineers - Applications or Computer Software Engineers - Systems .
And salaries vary by city , state , and industry .
You may find these links interesting : http : //myplan.com/careers/db/4st.php ? onet = 15-1021.00 [ myplan.com ] http : //myplan.com/careers/db/4st.php ? onet = 15-1031.00 [ myplan.com ] http : //myplan.com/careers/db/4st.php ? onet = 15-1032.00 [ myplan.com ] Be sure to hover over the " details " link as it will give you more detail on salary distribution.As for the question " is it lucrative ?
" I think the answer is definitely yes as both salaries and total employment are increasing .
Especially when you check out the employment numbers for 'sewing machine operator' .
Despite gradually increasing salaries , total employment has shown a rapid decline : http : //myplan.com/careers/db/5.php ? onet = 51-6031.00 [ myplan.com ] Or maybe check out dishwashers salaries : http : //myplan.com/careers/db/4.php ? onet = 35-9021.00 [ myplan.com ] Less than $ 18k per year and employment is flat .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Computer Programmers are tracked separately from Computer Software Engineers - Applications or Computer Software Engineers - Systems.
And salaries vary by city, state, and industry.
You may find these links interesting:http://myplan.com/careers/db/4st.php?onet=15-1021.00 [myplan.com]http://myplan.com/careers/db/4st.php?onet=15-1031.00 [myplan.com]http://myplan.com/careers/db/4st.php?onet=15-1032.00 [myplan.com]Be sure to hover over the "details" link as it will give you more detail on salary distribution.As for the question "is it lucrative?
" I think the answer is definitely yes as both salaries and total employment are increasing.
Especially when you check out the employment numbers for 'sewing machine operator'.
Despite gradually increasing salaries, total employment has shown a rapid decline:http://myplan.com/careers/db/5.php?onet=51-6031.00 [myplan.com]Or maybe check out dishwashers salaries:http://myplan.com/careers/db/4.php?onet=35-9021.00 [myplan.com]Less than $18k per year and employment is flat.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903946</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>HungryHobo</author>
	<datestamp>1264520040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm a final year comp sci student and I have to agree.<br>This course has been watered down like the drinks at a carnival.</p><p>I expected that by the end of my degree I'd feel competent in the subject.<br>The best way to describe my current state? I now more fully appreciate the true breadth of my ignorance.<br>I do not however feel that I am any kind of expert on the subject....</p><p>Some of the modules seem ok but then I look at the modules related to areas which I have an interest in outside of college and many of the modules I've done over the last few years could probably have been covered more thoroughly in a few days by an enthusiastic person with a textbook, google and some brains.</p><p>They're cutting out most of the math from first year because the dropout rate was the highest in the university and the standards in second year seem shocking since they also dropped a lot of the other basic stuff. (I've been tutoring people from the lower years)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a final year comp sci student and I have to agree.This course has been watered down like the drinks at a carnival.I expected that by the end of my degree I 'd feel competent in the subject.The best way to describe my current state ?
I now more fully appreciate the true breadth of my ignorance.I do not however feel that I am any kind of expert on the subject....Some of the modules seem ok but then I look at the modules related to areas which I have an interest in outside of college and many of the modules I 've done over the last few years could probably have been covered more thoroughly in a few days by an enthusiastic person with a textbook , google and some brains.They 're cutting out most of the math from first year because the dropout rate was the highest in the university and the standards in second year seem shocking since they also dropped a lot of the other basic stuff .
( I 've been tutoring people from the lower years )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a final year comp sci student and I have to agree.This course has been watered down like the drinks at a carnival.I expected that by the end of my degree I'd feel competent in the subject.The best way to describe my current state?
I now more fully appreciate the true breadth of my ignorance.I do not however feel that I am any kind of expert on the subject....Some of the modules seem ok but then I look at the modules related to areas which I have an interest in outside of college and many of the modules I've done over the last few years could probably have been covered more thoroughly in a few days by an enthusiastic person with a textbook, google and some brains.They're cutting out most of the math from first year because the dropout rate was the highest in the university and the standards in second year seem shocking since they also dropped a lot of the other basic stuff.
(I've been tutoring people from the lower years)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905974</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264527360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I started in 1998, and graduated in possibly the worst possible period for new hires in the tech field, spring '02 (tech bust + 9/11 made it nearly impossible to find anyone hiring my senior year, especially in the NYC area. I started around 37k after getting a fortunate (only) offer from a company I had interned at. After getting a raise to 40k for 2003, I moved jobs in October to a financial firm where my salary made what felt like a huge leap to 55k. My total comp (base+bonus) for 2004 was 75, 2005- 100, 2006- 117, 2007- 120, 2008- 108 (step back 3 spaces! financial blowup = pay cut + no bonus). 2009- made a move- 160 total comp.</p><p>There are a few caveats that will make your mileage vary- the biggest being that I work on Wall st in NYC where compensation is higher than anywhere I know of in the US, and so are the living costs ($2000/mo for a small 1 BR in most of Manhattan).<br>Second, is that I work on revenue producing applications that directly drive revenue for the firm- if you can MAKE money for your firm directly, I assure you you will be more highly valued and compensated.<br>Following on to the previous point, I don't even really think of myself as a technologist anymore. I see myself as more of a finance guy that programs. My job description requires that I don't just take orders from some suit, but that I drive innovation myself. I think this is really the biggest factor in my ample pay increases. You can work on Wall St and make 50k too, if you are in a back office or internal web app role.</p><p>Also, it should be noted that I work hard, and am constantly improving my skills. Instead of just spacing out on the train ride home every night like most commuters, I am increasing either my business or technical knowledge. That hour a day keeps unemployment away and a step ahead of most of my coworkers. Loving what you do helps as well, and I guess it is unrelated, but I feel like I should mention that not only does my boss code, but my boss's boss still does as well, though not very frequently.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I started in 1998 , and graduated in possibly the worst possible period for new hires in the tech field , spring '02 ( tech bust + 9/11 made it nearly impossible to find anyone hiring my senior year , especially in the NYC area .
I started around 37k after getting a fortunate ( only ) offer from a company I had interned at .
After getting a raise to 40k for 2003 , I moved jobs in October to a financial firm where my salary made what felt like a huge leap to 55k .
My total comp ( base + bonus ) for 2004 was 75 , 2005- 100 , 2006- 117 , 2007- 120 , 2008- 108 ( step back 3 spaces !
financial blowup = pay cut + no bonus ) .
2009- made a move- 160 total comp.There are a few caveats that will make your mileage vary- the biggest being that I work on Wall st in NYC where compensation is higher than anywhere I know of in the US , and so are the living costs ( $ 2000/mo for a small 1 BR in most of Manhattan ) .Second , is that I work on revenue producing applications that directly drive revenue for the firm- if you can MAKE money for your firm directly , I assure you you will be more highly valued and compensated.Following on to the previous point , I do n't even really think of myself as a technologist anymore .
I see myself as more of a finance guy that programs .
My job description requires that I do n't just take orders from some suit , but that I drive innovation myself .
I think this is really the biggest factor in my ample pay increases .
You can work on Wall St and make 50k too , if you are in a back office or internal web app role.Also , it should be noted that I work hard , and am constantly improving my skills .
Instead of just spacing out on the train ride home every night like most commuters , I am increasing either my business or technical knowledge .
That hour a day keeps unemployment away and a step ahead of most of my coworkers .
Loving what you do helps as well , and I guess it is unrelated , but I feel like I should mention that not only does my boss code , but my boss 's boss still does as well , though not very frequently .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started in 1998, and graduated in possibly the worst possible period for new hires in the tech field, spring '02 (tech bust + 9/11 made it nearly impossible to find anyone hiring my senior year, especially in the NYC area.
I started around 37k after getting a fortunate (only) offer from a company I had interned at.
After getting a raise to 40k for 2003, I moved jobs in October to a financial firm where my salary made what felt like a huge leap to 55k.
My total comp (base+bonus) for 2004 was 75, 2005- 100, 2006- 117, 2007- 120, 2008- 108 (step back 3 spaces!
financial blowup = pay cut + no bonus).
2009- made a move- 160 total comp.There are a few caveats that will make your mileage vary- the biggest being that I work on Wall st in NYC where compensation is higher than anywhere I know of in the US, and so are the living costs ($2000/mo for a small 1 BR in most of Manhattan).Second, is that I work on revenue producing applications that directly drive revenue for the firm- if you can MAKE money for your firm directly, I assure you you will be more highly valued and compensated.Following on to the previous point, I don't even really think of myself as a technologist anymore.
I see myself as more of a finance guy that programs.
My job description requires that I don't just take orders from some suit, but that I drive innovation myself.
I think this is really the biggest factor in my ample pay increases.
You can work on Wall St and make 50k too, if you are in a back office or internal web app role.Also, it should be noted that I work hard, and am constantly improving my skills.
Instead of just spacing out on the train ride home every night like most commuters, I am increasing either my business or technical knowledge.
That hour a day keeps unemployment away and a step ahead of most of my coworkers.
Loving what you do helps as well, and I guess it is unrelated, but I feel like I should mention that not only does my boss code, but my boss's boss still does as well, though not very frequently.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903914</id>
	<title>Computer Science BS graduate != programmer</title>
	<author>mapleleaf</author>
	<datestamp>1264519920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The Bureau of Labor Statistics is talking about "Computer Science BS graduates", not programmers in general. So it wouldn't be surprising if the average *programmer* made less.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The Bureau of Labor Statistics is talking about " Computer Science BS graduates " , not programmers in general .
So it would n't be surprising if the average * programmer * made less .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Bureau of Labor Statistics is talking about "Computer Science BS graduates", not programmers in general.
So it wouldn't be surprising if the average *programmer* made less.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903772</id>
	<title>it can be if in your job you also program</title>
	<author>zeldor</author>
	<datestamp>1264519380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>strictly "programming" is becoming a blue collar job these days.<br>but if you find a profession that you like that needs programming<br>skills in addition to its normal requirements you can do great.<br>myself I went to school to engineering (aerospace), that needs<br>a lot of programming as all we do is write code.<br>So its applied programming if you will which tends to be<br>a lot more useful in the real world then just a programming<br>degree.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>strictly " programming " is becoming a blue collar job these days.but if you find a profession that you like that needs programmingskills in addition to its normal requirements you can do great.myself I went to school to engineering ( aerospace ) , that needsa lot of programming as all we do is write code.So its applied programming if you will which tends to bea lot more useful in the real world then just a programmingdegree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>strictly "programming" is becoming a blue collar job these days.but if you find a profession that you like that needs programmingskills in addition to its normal requirements you can do great.myself I went to school to engineering (aerospace), that needsa lot of programming as all we do is write code.So its applied programming if you will which tends to bea lot more useful in the real world then just a programmingdegree.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904280</id>
	<title>Re:my numbers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264521180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unpleasant truth: Experience as a programmer does not count toward salary. Economic conditions do more for salary than your hard work.</p><p>- BS in CS from US local state school working as a programmer since 1999 in Cary, NC<br>- first job 1999 ~$47kpy<br>- second 2000 ~$65kpy<br>- laid off for ~1 year in 2001<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... 2001 to 2008 salaries were below $50k<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...<br>- fifth job 2008-present ~$67kpy (picked up after 3 months laid off)</p><p>So ten years of experience and I now have the same salary I did with 2 years of experience. Too bad about inflation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unpleasant truth : Experience as a programmer does not count toward salary .
Economic conditions do more for salary than your hard work.- BS in CS from US local state school working as a programmer since 1999 in Cary , NC- first job 1999 ~ $ 47kpy- second 2000 ~ $ 65kpy- laid off for ~ 1 year in 2001 ... 2001 to 2008 salaries were below $ 50k ...- fifth job 2008-present ~ $ 67kpy ( picked up after 3 months laid off ) So ten years of experience and I now have the same salary I did with 2 years of experience .
Too bad about inflation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unpleasant truth: Experience as a programmer does not count toward salary.
Economic conditions do more for salary than your hard work.- BS in CS from US local state school working as a programmer since 1999 in Cary, NC- first job 1999 ~$47kpy- second 2000 ~$65kpy- laid off for ~1 year in 2001 ... 2001 to 2008 salaries were below $50k ...- fifth job 2008-present ~$67kpy (picked up after 3 months laid off)So ten years of experience and I now have the same salary I did with 2 years of experience.
Too bad about inflation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903654</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264522620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Indeed.  I started college in 1999, and I remember in my first semester of Freshman year some guy coming in to talk to our CS 101 class.  He was exclaiming how wonderful it was and how he could probably place most of us in a good job ALREADY with just 8-9 weeks of college under our belt.</p><p>Fast forward to graduation in 2003.  I managed to get a job teaching computer classes at a certificate factory "school" within a month, but only for $10.00 per hour.  A few friends from school went on to work in fast food for a while.  It took me nearly a year to move from the teaching thing to a "real" job, and now almost 7 years later I've worked my way up to just BARELY $50,000 per year (I'm in South Carolina so cost of living is lower here than in say, California).  It's a living - it pays my bills and I have enough money left over to have some fun, but the idea that programming is the easy-street ticket to rolling in gobs of money for almost no work is long gone.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Indeed .
I started college in 1999 , and I remember in my first semester of Freshman year some guy coming in to talk to our CS 101 class .
He was exclaiming how wonderful it was and how he could probably place most of us in a good job ALREADY with just 8-9 weeks of college under our belt.Fast forward to graduation in 2003 .
I managed to get a job teaching computer classes at a certificate factory " school " within a month , but only for $ 10.00 per hour .
A few friends from school went on to work in fast food for a while .
It took me nearly a year to move from the teaching thing to a " real " job , and now almost 7 years later I 've worked my way up to just BARELY $ 50,000 per year ( I 'm in South Carolina so cost of living is lower here than in say , California ) .
It 's a living - it pays my bills and I have enough money left over to have some fun , but the idea that programming is the easy-street ticket to rolling in gobs of money for almost no work is long gone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Indeed.
I started college in 1999, and I remember in my first semester of Freshman year some guy coming in to talk to our CS 101 class.
He was exclaiming how wonderful it was and how he could probably place most of us in a good job ALREADY with just 8-9 weeks of college under our belt.Fast forward to graduation in 2003.
I managed to get a job teaching computer classes at a certificate factory "school" within a month, but only for $10.00 per hour.
A few friends from school went on to work in fast food for a while.
It took me nearly a year to move from the teaching thing to a "real" job, and now almost 7 years later I've worked my way up to just BARELY $50,000 per year (I'm in South Carolina so cost of living is lower here than in say, California).
It's a living - it pays my bills and I have enough money left over to have some fun, but the idea that programming is the easy-street ticket to rolling in gobs of money for almost no work is long gone.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903452</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904862</id>
	<title>Only if you enjoy programming</title>
	<author>keithpreston</author>
	<datestamp>1264523280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm 25, I am a Software Engineer.   I make more money then all my friends, except possibly the pharmacist.   However I get to do something I enjoy.   The problem with programming is a lot of people go into for money and have found out they are a dime a dozen as programmers.   It is almost impossible to tell how good of a programmer someone is in a 1 day interview, so companies are forced to hire people at this "skilled" labor rates and hope they pull in some decent programmers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm 25 , I am a Software Engineer .
I make more money then all my friends , except possibly the pharmacist .
However I get to do something I enjoy .
The problem with programming is a lot of people go into for money and have found out they are a dime a dozen as programmers .
It is almost impossible to tell how good of a programmer someone is in a 1 day interview , so companies are forced to hire people at this " skilled " labor rates and hope they pull in some decent programmers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm 25, I am a Software Engineer.
I make more money then all my friends, except possibly the pharmacist.
However I get to do something I enjoy.
The problem with programming is a lot of people go into for money and have found out they are a dime a dozen as programmers.
It is almost impossible to tell how good of a programmer someone is in a 1 day interview, so companies are forced to hire people at this "skilled" labor rates and hope they pull in some decent programmers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907854</id>
	<title>Re:Depends....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264534980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Parent was marked "Funny", but it's the sad truth. My company went under last year, so I had a rude awakening as to what's expected and how much companies will pay.</p><p>I have 10 years of solid real-world experience in the workforce, but due to the current economic situation, I'm making something in the range the fine article said fresh graduates earn.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Parent was marked " Funny " , but it 's the sad truth .
My company went under last year , so I had a rude awakening as to what 's expected and how much companies will pay.I have 10 years of solid real-world experience in the workforce , but due to the current economic situation , I 'm making something in the range the fine article said fresh graduates earn .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Parent was marked "Funny", but it's the sad truth.
My company went under last year, so I had a rude awakening as to what's expected and how much companies will pay.I have 10 years of solid real-world experience in the workforce, but due to the current economic situation, I'm making something in the range the fine article said fresh graduates earn.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903758</id>
	<title>University of Maryland Pay</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264519260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a graduate of computer science at University of Maryland, if your first job is paying you less than $60,000, you did something very wrong. Of course this is in the D.C. metro area, but that kind of pay is great in my opinion, especially if you are single and just starting off.</p><p>On the other hand, I have no idea if the Masters and PhD figures are correct, they seem a little high to me for starting positions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a graduate of computer science at University of Maryland , if your first job is paying you less than $ 60,000 , you did something very wrong .
Of course this is in the D.C. metro area , but that kind of pay is great in my opinion , especially if you are single and just starting off.On the other hand , I have no idea if the Masters and PhD figures are correct , they seem a little high to me for starting positions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a graduate of computer science at University of Maryland, if your first job is paying you less than $60,000, you did something very wrong.
Of course this is in the D.C. metro area, but that kind of pay is great in my opinion, especially if you are single and just starting off.On the other hand, I have no idea if the Masters and PhD figures are correct, they seem a little high to me for starting positions.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904166</id>
	<title>More available than lucrative</title>
	<author>mythz</author>
	<datestamp>1264520820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In my experience there is always a job for good programmers.</p><p>The salary may not be as lucrative as a doctor, dentist, senior accountant, economist, etc.<br>But its always easy to find work (well in UK and Australia anyways), I've been a contractor for the last 8 years and haven't spent more than a week without a contract.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In my experience there is always a job for good programmers.The salary may not be as lucrative as a doctor , dentist , senior accountant , economist , etc.But its always easy to find work ( well in UK and Australia anyways ) , I 've been a contractor for the last 8 years and have n't spent more than a week without a contract .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my experience there is always a job for good programmers.The salary may not be as lucrative as a doctor, dentist, senior accountant, economist, etc.But its always easy to find work (well in UK and Australia anyways), I've been a contractor for the last 8 years and haven't spent more than a week without a contract.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30919242</id>
	<title>Re:Do what you love and take control</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264615020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Amen to that brother!  Find out what you like to do and then figure out how to make money doing it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Amen to that brother !
Find out what you like to do and then figure out how to make money doing it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Amen to that brother!
Find out what you like to do and then figure out how to make money doing it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904124</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904288</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>0100010001010011</author>
	<datestamp>1264521240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Get your EE or ME degree and do controls. There's a whole field called "Mechatronics" dedicated to stuff like this.</p><p>I don't do anything but 'programming' all day. Data reduction via Matlab. <a href="http://www.vector.com/vi\_canape\_en.html" title="vector.com">CANape</a> [vector.com] is scripted with more or less C. I know C, C++, Java, Matlab, Perl, PHP, VBA, Assembly (enough to read it), etc. It's just a tool.</p><p>But in addition to knowing that I know PID controllers (and how to implement in C or Assembly). It's just becoming such that knowing a how to program isn't the least common denominator. In the '70s what 18 year old boy COULDN'T fix his own car? It didn't mean he should be come a mechanic.</p><p>I work for a Fortune 100 company. We have an electronics division that does nothing but 'program'. Most program in Simulink, but for low level stuff we still have people that do C. (Stuff that runs real time.) We have people that are working on autonomous vehicles, people that write internal applications for the company, etc. I don't know a single "programmer". Every single person is an "Engineer" with either their Computer, Electrical or Mechanical Engineering degree.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Get your EE or ME degree and do controls .
There 's a whole field called " Mechatronics " dedicated to stuff like this.I do n't do anything but 'programming ' all day .
Data reduction via Matlab .
CANape [ vector.com ] is scripted with more or less C. I know C , C + + , Java , Matlab , Perl , PHP , VBA , Assembly ( enough to read it ) , etc .
It 's just a tool.But in addition to knowing that I know PID controllers ( and how to implement in C or Assembly ) .
It 's just becoming such that knowing a how to program is n't the least common denominator .
In the '70s what 18 year old boy COULD N'T fix his own car ?
It did n't mean he should be come a mechanic.I work for a Fortune 100 company .
We have an electronics division that does nothing but 'program' .
Most program in Simulink , but for low level stuff we still have people that do C. ( Stuff that runs real time .
) We have people that are working on autonomous vehicles , people that write internal applications for the company , etc .
I do n't know a single " programmer " .
Every single person is an " Engineer " with either their Computer , Electrical or Mechanical Engineering degree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get your EE or ME degree and do controls.
There's a whole field called "Mechatronics" dedicated to stuff like this.I don't do anything but 'programming' all day.
Data reduction via Matlab.
CANape [vector.com] is scripted with more or less C. I know C, C++, Java, Matlab, Perl, PHP, VBA, Assembly (enough to read it), etc.
It's just a tool.But in addition to knowing that I know PID controllers (and how to implement in C or Assembly).
It's just becoming such that knowing a how to program isn't the least common denominator.
In the '70s what 18 year old boy COULDN'T fix his own car?
It didn't mean he should be come a mechanic.I work for a Fortune 100 company.
We have an electronics division that does nothing but 'program'.
Most program in Simulink, but for low level stuff we still have people that do C. (Stuff that runs real time.
) We have people that are working on autonomous vehicles, people that write internal applications for the company, etc.
I don't know a single "programmer".
Every single person is an "Engineer" with either their Computer, Electrical or Mechanical Engineering degree.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904754</id>
	<title>Programming?  Lucrative?  Depends...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264522800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Namely -

It depends on how large your botnet is.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Namely - It depends on how large your botnet is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Namely -

It depends on how large your botnet is.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904820</id>
	<title>Re:Listen to the suits</title>
	<author>Pojut</author>
	<datestamp>1264523040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If you listen to people who don't do tech work talk about techies, you'll quickly realize that a lot of them do in fact put techies on roughly the same level as mechanics or bricklayers.</p></div><p>You mean jobs that are far more technical and require more knowledge than the average person could possibly understand?  Jobs that are very easy to actually <i>do</i>, but difficult to learn how to do <i>properly</i>?</p><p>Speaking as a former mechanic, I'd say that's about right.  You don't pay a mechanic to do the work, you are paying them for their knowledge of <i>how</i> to do it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you listen to people who do n't do tech work talk about techies , you 'll quickly realize that a lot of them do in fact put techies on roughly the same level as mechanics or bricklayers.You mean jobs that are far more technical and require more knowledge than the average person could possibly understand ?
Jobs that are very easy to actually do , but difficult to learn how to do properly ? Speaking as a former mechanic , I 'd say that 's about right .
You do n't pay a mechanic to do the work , you are paying them for their knowledge of how to do it : - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you listen to people who don't do tech work talk about techies, you'll quickly realize that a lot of them do in fact put techies on roughly the same level as mechanics or bricklayers.You mean jobs that are far more technical and require more knowledge than the average person could possibly understand?
Jobs that are very easy to actually do, but difficult to learn how to do properly?Speaking as a former mechanic, I'd say that's about right.
You don't pay a mechanic to do the work, you are paying them for their knowledge of how to do it :-)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908106</id>
	<title>Re:Resume</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264535880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>c+ is the language that you use to program the venerable LoseThos 64-bit operating system in.  Of course, if that is an asset or a liability, i don't know.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>c + is the language that you use to program the venerable LoseThos 64-bit operating system in .
Of course , if that is an asset or a liability , i do n't know .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>c+ is the language that you use to program the venerable LoseThos 64-bit operating system in.
Of course, if that is an asset or a liability, i don't know.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903598</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908154</id>
	<title>Re:no-hire and non-compete agreements</title>
	<author>infinite9</author>
	<datestamp>1264536000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>This sidelines a lot of talent and helps exacerbate the software developer labor shortage employers are always complaining about.</i> </p><p>There is no software developer labor shortage.  There is a shortage of developers who are willing to work for <i>what they want to pay</i>.  This is intentional so that the numbers look right to congress when they lobby them for an increase in the H1 cap.  It's designed to drive down salaries and contract rates.  Please stop perpetuating this lie.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This sidelines a lot of talent and helps exacerbate the software developer labor shortage employers are always complaining about .
There is no software developer labor shortage .
There is a shortage of developers who are willing to work for what they want to pay .
This is intentional so that the numbers look right to congress when they lobby them for an increase in the H1 cap .
It 's designed to drive down salaries and contract rates .
Please stop perpetuating this lie .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This sidelines a lot of talent and helps exacerbate the software developer labor shortage employers are always complaining about.
There is no software developer labor shortage.
There is a shortage of developers who are willing to work for what they want to pay.
This is intentional so that the numbers look right to congress when they lobby them for an increase in the H1 cap.
It's designed to drive down salaries and contract rates.
Please stop perpetuating this lie.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909246</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>rve</author>
	<datestamp>1264497660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Not that I disagree entirely that it may be more difficult to manage someone in India, and I've certainly heard horror stories, but come on.  These could all be applied to just about any remote contractor who isn't worth their salt.  I have worked with/currently work with plenty of Indians who really knew/know their stuff.</p></div><p>The only problem with projects done in India I keep hearing about over here is that they seem reluctant to second guess a customer that sends a design with an obvious mistake in it, so sometimes you get your product with the mistake in it exactly as you designed it. These Indian consultants cost a lot more than $9, but still not so much that it would be cheaper to hire me than to fly one of those guys in.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Not that I disagree entirely that it may be more difficult to manage someone in India , and I 've certainly heard horror stories , but come on .
These could all be applied to just about any remote contractor who is n't worth their salt .
I have worked with/currently work with plenty of Indians who really knew/know their stuff.The only problem with projects done in India I keep hearing about over here is that they seem reluctant to second guess a customer that sends a design with an obvious mistake in it , so sometimes you get your product with the mistake in it exactly as you designed it .
These Indian consultants cost a lot more than $ 9 , but still not so much that it would be cheaper to hire me than to fly one of those guys in .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not that I disagree entirely that it may be more difficult to manage someone in India, and I've certainly heard horror stories, but come on.
These could all be applied to just about any remote contractor who isn't worth their salt.
I have worked with/currently work with plenty of Indians who really knew/know their stuff.The only problem with projects done in India I keep hearing about over here is that they seem reluctant to second guess a customer that sends a design with an obvious mistake in it, so sometimes you get your product with the mistake in it exactly as you designed it.
These Indian consultants cost a lot more than $9, but still not so much that it would be cheaper to hire me than to fly one of those guys in.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906964</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905990</id>
	<title>Re:Not so much</title>
	<author>FooAtWFU</author>
	<datestamp>1264527360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Undergraduate internships with IBM. Undergraduate work for the local university's student newspaper website team.
Undergraduate messing-around-with-open-source-in-spare-time.
<p>
I did all of the above, and I ended up with $74k right out of school (class of 2007, admittedly; class of 2009 would have been tougher, but that's true of every field) and last year I easily broke six figures (thanks in no small part to the massive crash and subsequent rebound of the stock market affecting the pricing of my options, RSUs, and the employee stock purchase plan). Hi.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Undergraduate internships with IBM .
Undergraduate work for the local university 's student newspaper website team .
Undergraduate messing-around-with-open-source-in-spare-time .
I did all of the above , and I ended up with $ 74k right out of school ( class of 2007 , admittedly ; class of 2009 would have been tougher , but that 's true of every field ) and last year I easily broke six figures ( thanks in no small part to the massive crash and subsequent rebound of the stock market affecting the pricing of my options , RSUs , and the employee stock purchase plan ) .
Hi .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Undergraduate internships with IBM.
Undergraduate work for the local university's student newspaper website team.
Undergraduate messing-around-with-open-source-in-spare-time.
I did all of the above, and I ended up with $74k right out of school (class of 2007, admittedly; class of 2009 would have been tougher, but that's true of every field) and last year I easily broke six figures (thanks in no small part to the massive crash and subsequent rebound of the stock market affecting the pricing of my options, RSUs, and the employee stock purchase plan).
Hi.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30920878</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>Profane MuthaFucka</author>
	<datestamp>1264620960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's one way to do it, but the people who should get a decent wage are still screwed. It's nice to see the outsourcers suffer, but it's nice to eat too.</p><p>You can watch the outsourcers suffer AND eat at the same time. It's called a Union.</p><p>Disclaimer: I put 4 of my own people out of a job last year by sending their jobs overseas. And I enjoyed it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's one way to do it , but the people who should get a decent wage are still screwed .
It 's nice to see the outsourcers suffer , but it 's nice to eat too.You can watch the outsourcers suffer AND eat at the same time .
It 's called a Union.Disclaimer : I put 4 of my own people out of a job last year by sending their jobs overseas .
And I enjoyed it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's one way to do it, but the people who should get a decent wage are still screwed.
It's nice to see the outsourcers suffer, but it's nice to eat too.You can watch the outsourcers suffer AND eat at the same time.
It's called a Union.Disclaimer: I put 4 of my own people out of a job last year by sending their jobs overseas.
And I enjoyed it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908404</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30912140</id>
	<title>Re:I don't have a degree...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264512720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>True.. Degree for new IT workers is practically a necessity. That doesn't mean a degree is necessary for actually doing the work. But if you cannot get an interview, chances are you will not be hired.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>Older experienced developers can usually get a job w/o degree. Experience can be taken in place or a degree. However, be warned that some companies have a policy of only hiring people with a degree, experienced or not.</p><p><b>Here is the one prerequisite for being a really good programmer; the ability of taking complex problems and breaking them down to their simpler form. If you do not possess this ability, stay away from programming.</b></p><p>Code paradigm memorization is not what makes a programmer!!!  Most programmers wash out because they do not naturally possess this ability. I have seen far too many people opt for an IT degree, begin working in IT and wash out. They have memorized the nomenclature. They can pass a basic skills test on a specific language or platform. But they have little to no problem solving skills and they only muddle through their jobs or wash out.  Be honest with yourself about this please. You will save yourself a lot of grief in the future. All young programmers want jobs. However, not all are cut out to be programmers.</p><p>If you went to school and were satisfied with writing programs but did not truly understand how that program worked or you really did not care how it worked, just that it worked, then you will probably not last as a developer. If this describes you, find another career. It could still be in IT. You may make a good Project Manager who likes detail without knowing how everything works. Pursue a PM or BA (Business Analyst) track. All developers want good PMs and BAs who understand IT but are more interested in the business or operational plans than digging into the details. We need PMs and BAs precisely like this. Tech Writer and Data Architecture are another possibilities.</p><p>As far as degrees go, I know lots of developers without a degree that are among the absolute best. I know some with Masters in IT that are horrible programmers.</p><p>A degree is another tool in your belt to perform the job. If two developers are equal and one has a degree and the other does not, I will promote the degreed person. Why? He has demonstrated initiative to sacrifice and stick it out. Second, the education process indicates the ability an skills to work outside the discipline area.  However, if the non degreed person has real problem solving ability and the other only understand text book solutions, the non degreed person would get the job (provided my company does not have a policy about requiring a degree).</p><p>Short answer concerning a degree verses no degree is, GET THE DEGREE!!  There is no reason not to with today's distance learning education opportunities.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>True.. Degree for new IT workers is practically a necessity .
That does n't mean a degree is necessary for actually doing the work .
But if you can not get an interview , chances are you will not be hired .
: ) Older experienced developers can usually get a job w/o degree .
Experience can be taken in place or a degree .
However , be warned that some companies have a policy of only hiring people with a degree , experienced or not.Here is the one prerequisite for being a really good programmer ; the ability of taking complex problems and breaking them down to their simpler form .
If you do not possess this ability , stay away from programming.Code paradigm memorization is not what makes a programmer ! ! !
Most programmers wash out because they do not naturally possess this ability .
I have seen far too many people opt for an IT degree , begin working in IT and wash out .
They have memorized the nomenclature .
They can pass a basic skills test on a specific language or platform .
But they have little to no problem solving skills and they only muddle through their jobs or wash out .
Be honest with yourself about this please .
You will save yourself a lot of grief in the future .
All young programmers want jobs .
However , not all are cut out to be programmers.If you went to school and were satisfied with writing programs but did not truly understand how that program worked or you really did not care how it worked , just that it worked , then you will probably not last as a developer .
If this describes you , find another career .
It could still be in IT .
You may make a good Project Manager who likes detail without knowing how everything works .
Pursue a PM or BA ( Business Analyst ) track .
All developers want good PMs and BAs who understand IT but are more interested in the business or operational plans than digging into the details .
We need PMs and BAs precisely like this .
Tech Writer and Data Architecture are another possibilities.As far as degrees go , I know lots of developers without a degree that are among the absolute best .
I know some with Masters in IT that are horrible programmers.A degree is another tool in your belt to perform the job .
If two developers are equal and one has a degree and the other does not , I will promote the degreed person .
Why ? He has demonstrated initiative to sacrifice and stick it out .
Second , the education process indicates the ability an skills to work outside the discipline area .
However , if the non degreed person has real problem solving ability and the other only understand text book solutions , the non degreed person would get the job ( provided my company does not have a policy about requiring a degree ) .Short answer concerning a degree verses no degree is , GET THE DEGREE ! !
There is no reason not to with today 's distance learning education opportunities .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>True.. Degree for new IT workers is practically a necessity.
That doesn't mean a degree is necessary for actually doing the work.
But if you cannot get an interview, chances are you will not be hired.
:)Older experienced developers can usually get a job w/o degree.
Experience can be taken in place or a degree.
However, be warned that some companies have a policy of only hiring people with a degree, experienced or not.Here is the one prerequisite for being a really good programmer; the ability of taking complex problems and breaking them down to their simpler form.
If you do not possess this ability, stay away from programming.Code paradigm memorization is not what makes a programmer!!!
Most programmers wash out because they do not naturally possess this ability.
I have seen far too many people opt for an IT degree, begin working in IT and wash out.
They have memorized the nomenclature.
They can pass a basic skills test on a specific language or platform.
But they have little to no problem solving skills and they only muddle through their jobs or wash out.
Be honest with yourself about this please.
You will save yourself a lot of grief in the future.
All young programmers want jobs.
However, not all are cut out to be programmers.If you went to school and were satisfied with writing programs but did not truly understand how that program worked or you really did not care how it worked, just that it worked, then you will probably not last as a developer.
If this describes you, find another career.
It could still be in IT.
You may make a good Project Manager who likes detail without knowing how everything works.
Pursue a PM or BA (Business Analyst) track.
All developers want good PMs and BAs who understand IT but are more interested in the business or operational plans than digging into the details.
We need PMs and BAs precisely like this.
Tech Writer and Data Architecture are another possibilities.As far as degrees go, I know lots of developers without a degree that are among the absolute best.
I know some with Masters in IT that are horrible programmers.A degree is another tool in your belt to perform the job.
If two developers are equal and one has a degree and the other does not, I will promote the degreed person.
Why? He has demonstrated initiative to sacrifice and stick it out.
Second, the education process indicates the ability an skills to work outside the discipline area.
However, if the non degreed person has real problem solving ability and the other only understand text book solutions, the non degreed person would get the job (provided my company does not have a policy about requiring a degree).Short answer concerning a degree verses no degree is, GET THE DEGREE!!
There is no reason not to with today's distance learning education opportunities.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908562</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264537500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The thing is that late 90s bubble everyone thinks is the norm.  It isnt.</p><p>When I graduated (in 95) the going salary for a programmer in the field when I started was 20-30k 60k if you 'had been around awhile'.  Then it exploded in the late 90s.  People just out of college getting 100k jobs.</p><p>I didnt go into this for the money.  Thats gravy.</p><p>Money is very transitory.  It comes and it goes.  What you do with that money while you have it.  That can make all the difference in the world.</p><p>I got some options from one place.  Everyone else went out and bought cars, tvs, boats, toys...  I paid my house off.  Months later everyone else saw the beauty of my plan.  I even told them they were fools for not doing the same thing.  I am slowly buying all the same things they had (and is now long gone).  But at a more steady pace and when I can afford them and a TON more money for 'fun time'.</p><p>When you get money use it to create more options (hehe) in life.</p><p>But your right this area sucks for 'tech jobs'.  If I had it to do over I would not have moved into this area.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The thing is that late 90s bubble everyone thinks is the norm .
It isnt.When I graduated ( in 95 ) the going salary for a programmer in the field when I started was 20-30k 60k if you 'had been around awhile' .
Then it exploded in the late 90s .
People just out of college getting 100k jobs.I didnt go into this for the money .
Thats gravy.Money is very transitory .
It comes and it goes .
What you do with that money while you have it .
That can make all the difference in the world.I got some options from one place .
Everyone else went out and bought cars , tvs , boats , toys... I paid my house off .
Months later everyone else saw the beauty of my plan .
I even told them they were fools for not doing the same thing .
I am slowly buying all the same things they had ( and is now long gone ) .
But at a more steady pace and when I can afford them and a TON more money for 'fun time'.When you get money use it to create more options ( hehe ) in life.But your right this area sucks for 'tech jobs' .
If I had it to do over I would not have moved into this area .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The thing is that late 90s bubble everyone thinks is the norm.
It isnt.When I graduated (in 95) the going salary for a programmer in the field when I started was 20-30k 60k if you 'had been around awhile'.
Then it exploded in the late 90s.
People just out of college getting 100k jobs.I didnt go into this for the money.
Thats gravy.Money is very transitory.
It comes and it goes.
What you do with that money while you have it.
That can make all the difference in the world.I got some options from one place.
Everyone else went out and bought cars, tvs, boats, toys...  I paid my house off.
Months later everyone else saw the beauty of my plan.
I even told them they were fools for not doing the same thing.
I am slowly buying all the same things they had (and is now long gone).
But at a more steady pace and when I can afford them and a TON more money for 'fun time'.When you get money use it to create more options (hehe) in life.But your right this area sucks for 'tech jobs'.
If I had it to do over I would not have moved into this area.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30914264</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>beguyld</author>
	<datestamp>1264535220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If I had a magic time machine and went back to 1999 the only thing I would be doing is selling short.</p></div><p>There's still time....</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If I had a magic time machine and went back to 1999 the only thing I would be doing is selling short.There 's still time... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I had a magic time machine and went back to 1999 the only thing I would be doing is selling short.There's still time....
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904458</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905668</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264526160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>We use "real" languages (predictable languages) like C, C++, Ada, Fortran, and assembly.</p></div><p>Why is parent modded Insightful? This is clearly funny. Specially C++ or assembly is just funny.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>We use " real " languages ( predictable languages ) like C , C + + , Ada , Fortran , and assembly.Why is parent modded Insightful ?
This is clearly funny .
Specially C + + or assembly is just funny .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We use "real" languages (predictable languages) like C, C++, Ada, Fortran, and assembly.Why is parent modded Insightful?
This is clearly funny.
Specially C++ or assembly is just funny.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904268</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264521180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh noes! Software might be usable by those other than the 1337 h4x0r5!!! OH THE HORROR!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh noes !
Software might be usable by those other than the 1337 h4x0r5 ! ! !
OH THE HORROR ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh noes!
Software might be usable by those other than the 1337 h4x0r5!!!
OH THE HORROR!!
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903562</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906888</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>uarch</author>
	<datestamp>1264530960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That person gets bumped to the middle of the resume pile.</p><p>The person on the top of the resume pile knows that VHDL, Verilog, SystemC, Specman, C, C++, Java, etc are all tools.  Like all tools there are correct and incorrect times to use them (though there are plenty of instances when they're interchangeable).</p><p>The key part is that they know how to apply the tools to solve a problem, regardless of what the tools may be.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That person gets bumped to the middle of the resume pile.The person on the top of the resume pile knows that VHDL , Verilog , SystemC , Specman , C , C + + , Java , etc are all tools .
Like all tools there are correct and incorrect times to use them ( though there are plenty of instances when they 're interchangeable ) .The key part is that they know how to apply the tools to solve a problem , regardless of what the tools may be .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That person gets bumped to the middle of the resume pile.The person on the top of the resume pile knows that VHDL, Verilog, SystemC, Specman, C, C++, Java, etc are all tools.
Like all tools there are correct and incorrect times to use them (though there are plenty of instances when they're interchangeable).The key part is that they know how to apply the tools to solve a problem, regardless of what the tools may be.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905176</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906152</id>
	<title>Specialize and Localize</title>
	<author>Necron69</author>
	<datestamp>1264528020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My little anecdote. I graduated in '93 with a BA in CS Applications. I spent three years in school as a student Unix admin and went right to work doing that - for a mere $28k. I spent the 90s switching jobs every 2-3 years (and getting a 10-20\% raise each time). When the tech bubble burst in 2001, I had worked my way up to an $87k/yr salary.</p><p>Since then, I admittedly haven't had a raise, and I've watched in alarm as more and more jobs were outsourced by my employer to India, then China. I even did a stint as a team lead for a group that was mostly in China (personally rewarding, but professionally alarming).</p><p>My response was to specialize in firmware QA work, and then move to a smaller company where the work requires lots of hands-on tasks.  I did take a small pay cut, but the bonuses are actually better here than a certain, two-letter acronym computer giant I used to work for. Better still, my employer already 'outsourced' this group from the Bay Area to Colorado, so they aren't likely to move it again anytime soon. My group is actually hiring right now, and we can't find people with the experience we need. That's when you feel more secure.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>My personal advice would be to avoid web application programming like the plague. Specialize in something requiring deeper knowledge and/or hands-on work (get closer to the hardware), and watch for outsourcing trends. Jump ship whenever it is beneficial to you to do so, and don't worry about your company or your friends you are leaving behind. Be a mercenary and do what is best for you and your career.</p><p>Necron69</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My little anecdote .
I graduated in '93 with a BA in CS Applications .
I spent three years in school as a student Unix admin and went right to work doing that - for a mere $ 28k .
I spent the 90s switching jobs every 2-3 years ( and getting a 10-20 \ % raise each time ) .
When the tech bubble burst in 2001 , I had worked my way up to an $ 87k/yr salary.Since then , I admittedly have n't had a raise , and I 've watched in alarm as more and more jobs were outsourced by my employer to India , then China .
I even did a stint as a team lead for a group that was mostly in China ( personally rewarding , but professionally alarming ) .My response was to specialize in firmware QA work , and then move to a smaller company where the work requires lots of hands-on tasks .
I did take a small pay cut , but the bonuses are actually better here than a certain , two-letter acronym computer giant I used to work for .
Better still , my employer already 'outsourced ' this group from the Bay Area to Colorado , so they are n't likely to move it again anytime soon .
My group is actually hiring right now , and we ca n't find people with the experience we need .
That 's when you feel more secure .
: ) My personal advice would be to avoid web application programming like the plague .
Specialize in something requiring deeper knowledge and/or hands-on work ( get closer to the hardware ) , and watch for outsourcing trends .
Jump ship whenever it is beneficial to you to do so , and do n't worry about your company or your friends you are leaving behind .
Be a mercenary and do what is best for you and your career.Necron69</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My little anecdote.
I graduated in '93 with a BA in CS Applications.
I spent three years in school as a student Unix admin and went right to work doing that - for a mere $28k.
I spent the 90s switching jobs every 2-3 years (and getting a 10-20\% raise each time).
When the tech bubble burst in 2001, I had worked my way up to an $87k/yr salary.Since then, I admittedly haven't had a raise, and I've watched in alarm as more and more jobs were outsourced by my employer to India, then China.
I even did a stint as a team lead for a group that was mostly in China (personally rewarding, but professionally alarming).My response was to specialize in firmware QA work, and then move to a smaller company where the work requires lots of hands-on tasks.
I did take a small pay cut, but the bonuses are actually better here than a certain, two-letter acronym computer giant I used to work for.
Better still, my employer already 'outsourced' this group from the Bay Area to Colorado, so they aren't likely to move it again anytime soon.
My group is actually hiring right now, and we can't find people with the experience we need.
That's when you feel more secure.
:)My personal advice would be to avoid web application programming like the plague.
Specialize in something requiring deeper knowledge and/or hands-on work (get closer to the hardware), and watch for outsourcing trends.
Jump ship whenever it is beneficial to you to do so, and don't worry about your company or your friends you are leaving behind.
Be a mercenary and do what is best for you and your career.Necron69</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906022</id>
	<title>Re:Listen to the suits</title>
	<author>CausticPuppy</author>
	<datestamp>1264527540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If you listen to people who don't do tech work talk about techies, you'll quickly realize that a lot of them do in fact put techies on roughly the same level as mechanics or bricklayers. </p></div><p>Except they have no problems asking tech people to do free work.</p><p>"Oh, you're a bricklayer?  Hey, can you stop by sometime and replace the bricks on my front sidewalk?  I'll give you a beer...."</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you listen to people who do n't do tech work talk about techies , you 'll quickly realize that a lot of them do in fact put techies on roughly the same level as mechanics or bricklayers .
Except they have no problems asking tech people to do free work .
" Oh , you 're a bricklayer ?
Hey , can you stop by sometime and replace the bricks on my front sidewalk ?
I 'll give you a beer.... "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you listen to people who don't do tech work talk about techies, you'll quickly realize that a lot of them do in fact put techies on roughly the same level as mechanics or bricklayers.
Except they have no problems asking tech people to do free work.
"Oh, you're a bricklayer?
Hey, can you stop by sometime and replace the bricks on my front sidewalk?
I'll give you a beer...."
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30911496</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264508400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree with you cerberuss. I have NEVER seen an outsourced project come in on time or on budget. Outsourcing as a whole, is a very, very  bad idea.</p><p>No, I am not a protectionist per se and I am not denigrating the overseas developers.  The developers may be good or they may be bad. To quote Forrest Gump, "You never know what you are going to get."</p><p>The problem usually has to do with communication and the understanding how the business works and meeting the business objectives. The large majority of outsourced worked projects are given to development teams that have no idea how the business actually works. The results are that  you get back code written without the business requirements being met. Far too many managers discount business knowledge in the development process. They start to think you can have a fast food type of development strategy. It does not work that way and 90\% of these projects fail.</p><p>Most of the outsourced projects come back in and the in house developers have to fix them. The in house teams are forced to work 60-90 hours a week, since the project is overtime and over budget. The in house teams are not miracle workers, so that wind up patching the ugly code or code that performs operations unrelated to the business requirements. The results is a patched application that lacks scalability and maintainability..</p><p>I love the McDonald's type of development model; cheap labor and fast food products. Go ask a doctor what that does to your cardio- vascular system. The same is true for your IT systems as well.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with you cerberuss .
I have NEVER seen an outsourced project come in on time or on budget .
Outsourcing as a whole , is a very , very bad idea.No , I am not a protectionist per se and I am not denigrating the overseas developers .
The developers may be good or they may be bad .
To quote Forrest Gump , " You never know what you are going to get .
" The problem usually has to do with communication and the understanding how the business works and meeting the business objectives .
The large majority of outsourced worked projects are given to development teams that have no idea how the business actually works .
The results are that you get back code written without the business requirements being met .
Far too many managers discount business knowledge in the development process .
They start to think you can have a fast food type of development strategy .
It does not work that way and 90 \ % of these projects fail.Most of the outsourced projects come back in and the in house developers have to fix them .
The in house teams are forced to work 60-90 hours a week , since the project is overtime and over budget .
The in house teams are not miracle workers , so that wind up patching the ugly code or code that performs operations unrelated to the business requirements .
The results is a patched application that lacks scalability and maintainability..I love the McDonald 's type of development model ; cheap labor and fast food products .
Go ask a doctor what that does to your cardio- vascular system .
The same is true for your IT systems as well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with you cerberuss.
I have NEVER seen an outsourced project come in on time or on budget.
Outsourcing as a whole, is a very, very  bad idea.No, I am not a protectionist per se and I am not denigrating the overseas developers.
The developers may be good or they may be bad.
To quote Forrest Gump, "You never know what you are going to get.
"The problem usually has to do with communication and the understanding how the business works and meeting the business objectives.
The large majority of outsourced worked projects are given to development teams that have no idea how the business actually works.
The results are that  you get back code written without the business requirements being met.
Far too many managers discount business knowledge in the development process.
They start to think you can have a fast food type of development strategy.
It does not work that way and 90\% of these projects fail.Most of the outsourced projects come back in and the in house developers have to fix them.
The in house teams are forced to work 60-90 hours a week, since the project is overtime and over budget.
The in house teams are not miracle workers, so that wind up patching the ugly code or code that performs operations unrelated to the business requirements.
The results is a patched application that lacks scalability and maintainability..I love the McDonald's type of development model; cheap labor and fast food products.
Go ask a doctor what that does to your cardio- vascular system.
The same is true for your IT systems as well.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905742</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905786</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264526640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I want to have my tonsils removed by a surgeon who knows how to do that, regardless of his "love" for the profession.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I want to have my tonsils removed by a surgeon who knows how to do that , regardless of his " love " for the profession .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I want to have my tonsils removed by a surgeon who knows how to do that, regardless of his "love" for the profession.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30919042</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperspecialization</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264614300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You hit the nail on the head.  See a need and fill it.  Find a problem and be the solution.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You hit the nail on the head .
See a need and fill it .
Find a problem and be the solution .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You hit the nail on the head.
See a need and fill it.
Find a problem and be the solution.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903584</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904626</id>
	<title>i think when plumbing was first invented</title>
	<author>circletimessquare</author>
	<datestamp>1264522320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>it was the domain of the greatest scientists, engineers, craftsmen, and artists</p><p>now its the domain of guys with ass crack showing</p><p>all industries go from new and fantastic to mundane and ordinary. IT work is no exception. for some of us in networking, it pretty much IS plumbing</p><p>but there's an important caveat here: some plumbers make a shitload of money. reason being, simple economics of supply and demand: if you're a good plumber, and you're willing to mess with a toilet, you're a rarity, and you can charge good money</p><p>the same simple economic truths apply to IT work, and always will. just like plumbing's disagreeable facets to the job according to average folk, to average folk, dealing with the technical aspects of a computer is a mindnumbing experience</p><p>this means there is and always will be a natural barrier to entry in the field, and so those of us who thrive in the nominally difficult mental arena of dealing with the innards of a computer will therefore always, for generations to come, make good money, just like plumbers today</p><p>hopefully we'll show less ass crack though<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-P</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>it was the domain of the greatest scientists , engineers , craftsmen , and artistsnow its the domain of guys with ass crack showingall industries go from new and fantastic to mundane and ordinary .
IT work is no exception .
for some of us in networking , it pretty much IS plumbingbut there 's an important caveat here : some plumbers make a shitload of money .
reason being , simple economics of supply and demand : if you 're a good plumber , and you 're willing to mess with a toilet , you 're a rarity , and you can charge good moneythe same simple economic truths apply to IT work , and always will .
just like plumbing 's disagreeable facets to the job according to average folk , to average folk , dealing with the technical aspects of a computer is a mindnumbing experiencethis means there is and always will be a natural barrier to entry in the field , and so those of us who thrive in the nominally difficult mental arena of dealing with the innards of a computer will therefore always , for generations to come , make good money , just like plumbers todayhopefully we 'll show less ass crack though ; -P</tokentext>
<sentencetext>it was the domain of the greatest scientists, engineers, craftsmen, and artistsnow its the domain of guys with ass crack showingall industries go from new and fantastic to mundane and ordinary.
IT work is no exception.
for some of us in networking, it pretty much IS plumbingbut there's an important caveat here: some plumbers make a shitload of money.
reason being, simple economics of supply and demand: if you're a good plumber, and you're willing to mess with a toilet, you're a rarity, and you can charge good moneythe same simple economic truths apply to IT work, and always will.
just like plumbing's disagreeable facets to the job according to average folk, to average folk, dealing with the technical aspects of a computer is a mindnumbing experiencethis means there is and always will be a natural barrier to entry in the field, and so those of us who thrive in the nominally difficult mental arena of dealing with the innards of a computer will therefore always, for generations to come, make good money, just like plumbers todayhopefully we'll show less ass crack though ;-P</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904226</id>
	<title>Re:the key to earning well in this field</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264521000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Too much job-hopping is bad for your curriculum. Makes one wonder "what's wrong with this guy that he can't stay put on a place for 2 years"?</p><p>The hop must be paired with patience. My bet would be on this procedure:</p><p>1. Set a goal for your next job.<br>2. Look for it.<br>3. Don't hop until you find something at least very close to that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Too much job-hopping is bad for your curriculum .
Makes one wonder " what 's wrong with this guy that he ca n't stay put on a place for 2 years " ? The hop must be paired with patience .
My bet would be on this procedure : 1 .
Set a goal for your next job.2 .
Look for it.3 .
Do n't hop until you find something at least very close to that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Too much job-hopping is bad for your curriculum.
Makes one wonder "what's wrong with this guy that he can't stay put on a place for 2 years"?The hop must be paired with patience.
My bet would be on this procedure:1.
Set a goal for your next job.2.
Look for it.3.
Don't hop until you find something at least very close to that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905034</id>
	<title>Re:Not so much</title>
	<author>potat0man</author>
	<datestamp>1264524000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>...you can make decent money.</i>
<br> <br>
OK, but what does that mean? 50k? 90k?
<br> <br>
In my experience people have vastly different perceptions of what a <i>decent</i> living is.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...you can make decent money .
OK , but what does that mean ?
50k ? 90k ?
In my experience people have vastly different perceptions of what a decent living is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...you can make decent money.
OK, but what does that mean?
50k? 90k?
In my experience people have vastly different perceptions of what a decent living is.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907814</id>
	<title>Re:Depends....</title>
	<author>wurble</author>
	<datestamp>1264534860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Becoming a doctor?  But<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. but<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... you have "Socialist Medicine"!!  How could it be that your doctors make good money???<br>
<br>
In all seriousness though, the three career paths you listed are likely to be the best 3 in nearly any nation:  finance, law, medicine (in order of richest to not quite the richest).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Becoming a doctor ?
But .. but ... you have " Socialist Medicine " ! !
How could it be that your doctors make good money ? ? ?
In all seriousness though , the three career paths you listed are likely to be the best 3 in nearly any nation : finance , law , medicine ( in order of richest to not quite the richest ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Becoming a doctor?
But .. but ... you have "Socialist Medicine"!!
How could it be that your doctors make good money???
In all seriousness though, the three career paths you listed are likely to be the best 3 in nearly any nation:  finance, law, medicine (in order of richest to not quite the richest).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905408</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909300</id>
	<title>Re:Really?</title>
	<author>sorak</author>
	<datestamp>1264497900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p>writes Laird, 'we're expected to pay for our own tools,</p></div><p>I don't think it's actually common for hired programmers to buy their own tools.</p></div><p>Nah...Most of them use torrents.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>writes Laird , 'we 're expected to pay for our own tools,I do n't think it 's actually common for hired programmers to buy their own tools.Nah...Most of them use torrents .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>writes Laird, 'we're expected to pay for our own tools,I don't think it's actually common for hired programmers to buy their own tools.Nah...Most of them use torrents.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909024</id>
	<title>Re:Salary</title>
	<author>ncohafmuta</author>
	<datestamp>1264496640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>you say 'skilled labor' almost like it's a bad thing. you want a company hiring unskilled labor? i'm partially joking. point is, everything is skilled labor. if it's not, they shouldn't be paying you. 'shouldn't' being the key word..that's not the real world, because you got nephews you need to do a favor for, or minorities you're forced to hire, etc..</p><p>and having to drive yourself from the airport, geez, they obviously don't know that programmers have to travel in style.</p><p>-Tony</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>you say 'skilled labor ' almost like it 's a bad thing .
you want a company hiring unskilled labor ?
i 'm partially joking .
point is , everything is skilled labor .
if it 's not , they should n't be paying you .
'should n't ' being the key word..that 's not the real world , because you got nephews you need to do a favor for , or minorities you 're forced to hire , etc..and having to drive yourself from the airport , geez , they obviously do n't know that programmers have to travel in style.-Tony</tokentext>
<sentencetext>you say 'skilled labor' almost like it's a bad thing.
you want a company hiring unskilled labor?
i'm partially joking.
point is, everything is skilled labor.
if it's not, they shouldn't be paying you.
'shouldn't' being the key word..that's not the real world, because you got nephews you need to do a favor for, or minorities you're forced to hire, etc..and having to drive yourself from the airport, geez, they obviously don't know that programmers have to travel in style.-Tony</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903916</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905744</id>
	<title>Re:We are becoming more disposable</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264526520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The unions' problem isn't that people don't want unions. It's that people don't want <i>corrupt</i> unions. The unions long ago became as corrupt as the corporations they fight, to the point that the workers have the choice of siding with the corporation which will work you to death for no pay or with the union which will take all of your money in dues and bend over for the corporation and you'll be worked to death because the union is demanding so much more money for you.</p><p>When a union comes along that is actually worth bothering with, people will flock to it. Then the cycle can repeat, but there will at least be a few good years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The unions ' problem is n't that people do n't want unions .
It 's that people do n't want corrupt unions .
The unions long ago became as corrupt as the corporations they fight , to the point that the workers have the choice of siding with the corporation which will work you to death for no pay or with the union which will take all of your money in dues and bend over for the corporation and you 'll be worked to death because the union is demanding so much more money for you.When a union comes along that is actually worth bothering with , people will flock to it .
Then the cycle can repeat , but there will at least be a few good years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The unions' problem isn't that people don't want unions.
It's that people don't want corrupt unions.
The unions long ago became as corrupt as the corporations they fight, to the point that the workers have the choice of siding with the corporation which will work you to death for no pay or with the union which will take all of your money in dues and bend over for the corporation and you'll be worked to death because the union is demanding so much more money for you.When a union comes along that is actually worth bothering with, people will flock to it.
Then the cycle can repeat, but there will at least be a few good years.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903728</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905378</id>
	<title>Re:I don't have a degree...</title>
	<author>Whorhay</author>
	<datestamp>1264525200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For most people reading this it's probably already too late for the path I took.</p><p>I joined the military and enlisted to be a programmer. At the time the rule was that every programmer was evaluated for and given a TS SCI clearance if they were eligible. Since I was I got my clearance and never needed it in the service. When I got out I used my experience and contacts to find a contract position at a DoD facility that required an active clearance. $60k salary in an area where that's the average household income, all for a couple years experience and a clearance.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For most people reading this it 's probably already too late for the path I took.I joined the military and enlisted to be a programmer .
At the time the rule was that every programmer was evaluated for and given a TS SCI clearance if they were eligible .
Since I was I got my clearance and never needed it in the service .
When I got out I used my experience and contacts to find a contract position at a DoD facility that required an active clearance .
$ 60k salary in an area where that 's the average household income , all for a couple years experience and a clearance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For most people reading this it's probably already too late for the path I took.I joined the military and enlisted to be a programmer.
At the time the rule was that every programmer was evaluated for and given a TS SCI clearance if they were eligible.
Since I was I got my clearance and never needed it in the service.
When I got out I used my experience and contacts to find a contract position at a DoD facility that required an active clearance.
$60k salary in an area where that's the average household income, all for a couple years experience and a clearance.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30912784</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Eil</author>
	<datestamp>1264517940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you mean a union, I promise to devise a technology for the singular purpose of allowing me to reach through the fabric of Slashdot to strangle you.</p><p>If you do indeed just mean a professional society for computing professionals, look no further:</p><ul><li> <a href="http://www.acm.org/" title="acm.org">ACM</a> [acm.org] </li><li> <a href="http://www.computer.org/" title="computer.org">IEEE</a> [computer.org] </li></ul></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you mean a union , I promise to devise a technology for the singular purpose of allowing me to reach through the fabric of Slashdot to strangle you.If you do indeed just mean a professional society for computing professionals , look no further : ACM [ acm.org ] IEEE [ computer.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you mean a union, I promise to devise a technology for the singular purpose of allowing me to reach through the fabric of Slashdot to strangle you.If you do indeed just mean a professional society for computing professionals, look no further: ACM [acm.org]  IEEE [computer.org] </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905550</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905042</id>
	<title>Re:I don't have a degree...</title>
	<author>shawnmchorse</author>
	<datestamp>1264524060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>$87k here, and no degree either (I dropped out of college three separate times).  Finding that first programming position was quite difficult.  It was mostly a matter of finding a company willing to pay me little (~$30k) in exchange for the fact that I had no job experience and no degree.  Once I had two years work experience there (with a couple of raises), I moved to another company and doubled my salary overnight.</p><p>The lack of a degree never really came up again, once I had a good amount of work experience.  There are some positions where having a degree is an absolute requirement, but most of them are with state level government or similar... and are probably places I wouldn't really want to work anyway.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 87k here , and no degree either ( I dropped out of college three separate times ) .
Finding that first programming position was quite difficult .
It was mostly a matter of finding a company willing to pay me little ( ~ $ 30k ) in exchange for the fact that I had no job experience and no degree .
Once I had two years work experience there ( with a couple of raises ) , I moved to another company and doubled my salary overnight.The lack of a degree never really came up again , once I had a good amount of work experience .
There are some positions where having a degree is an absolute requirement , but most of them are with state level government or similar... and are probably places I would n't really want to work anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$87k here, and no degree either (I dropped out of college three separate times).
Finding that first programming position was quite difficult.
It was mostly a matter of finding a company willing to pay me little (~$30k) in exchange for the fact that I had no job experience and no degree.
Once I had two years work experience there (with a couple of raises), I moved to another company and doubled my salary overnight.The lack of a degree never really came up again, once I had a good amount of work experience.
There are some positions where having a degree is an absolute requirement, but most of them are with state level government or similar... and are probably places I wouldn't really want to work anyway.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909882</id>
	<title>Re:really, 60,000 starting?</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1264500360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would expect $60,000 as the very low end for DC. That's hardly a livable wage for there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would expect $ 60,000 as the very low end for DC .
That 's hardly a livable wage for there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would expect $60,000 as the very low end for DC.
That's hardly a livable wage for there.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903510</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907210</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Skuld-Chan</author>
	<datestamp>1264532220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Java, C# and VB are real languages (they have and will continue to solve problems for actual customers). You are just hiring the wrong kinds of people, or are hiring them and not training them properly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Java , C # and VB are real languages ( they have and will continue to solve problems for actual customers ) .
You are just hiring the wrong kinds of people , or are hiring them and not training them properly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Java, C# and VB are real languages (they have and will continue to solve problems for actual customers).
You are just hiring the wrong kinds of people, or are hiring them and not training them properly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905526</id>
	<title>Re:missing number</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264525740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I wonder if  the earnings of Bill Gates is included in the calculation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I wonder if the earnings of Bill Gates is included in the calculation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wonder if  the earnings of Bill Gates is included in the calculation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903472</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903500</id>
	<title>Putting a dollar figure down is problematic</title>
	<author>i\_want\_you\_to\_throw\_</author>
	<datestamp>1264518180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>My starting salary in DC contracting with the Feds was $70K. Flash forward to a year of living in Cincinnati and my salary dropped to $40K. Now I'm back in DC contracting for Feds again. Starting salary? $105K. <br> <br>
60K in a place like Cincinnati, not bad. 60K in DC, can't live on it. Be sure to take regional salaries into consideration.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My starting salary in DC contracting with the Feds was $ 70K .
Flash forward to a year of living in Cincinnati and my salary dropped to $ 40K .
Now I 'm back in DC contracting for Feds again .
Starting salary ?
$ 105K . 60K in a place like Cincinnati , not bad .
60K in DC , ca n't live on it .
Be sure to take regional salaries into consideration .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My starting salary in DC contracting with the Feds was $70K.
Flash forward to a year of living in Cincinnati and my salary dropped to $40K.
Now I'm back in DC contracting for Feds again.
Starting salary?
$105K.  
60K in a place like Cincinnati, not bad.
60K in DC, can't live on it.
Be sure to take regional salaries into consideration.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905076</id>
	<title>Re:Don't do it!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264524180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If you work hard enough you can get a free day with your spouse</p></div><p>I'm a dev and what's a "spouse"?  Is that slang for XBox?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you work hard enough you can get a free day with your spouseI 'm a dev and what 's a " spouse " ?
Is that slang for XBox ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you work hard enough you can get a free day with your spouseI'm a dev and what's a "spouse"?
Is that slang for XBox?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30911874</id>
	<title>Re:Don't do it!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264510740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Agreed!!! Programming is not like it used to be!! Programmers are not as well thought of as they use to be.</p><p>As an EA who started as a developer, yes you can make good money, but you will have ZERO personal life.</p><p>If you want to work in IT, become a BA, DBA, Security Admin, or a Unix/Linux SysAdmin. You will be treated better, get more respect, and although you do have emergency on calls, they treat you much better.</p><p>Developers are looked upon as assembly line workers today. Sad, but very true!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed ! ! !
Programming is not like it used to be ! !
Programmers are not as well thought of as they use to be.As an EA who started as a developer , yes you can make good money , but you will have ZERO personal life.If you want to work in IT , become a BA , DBA , Security Admin , or a Unix/Linux SysAdmin .
You will be treated better , get more respect , and although you do have emergency on calls , they treat you much better.Developers are looked upon as assembly line workers today .
Sad , but very true !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed!!!
Programming is not like it used to be!!
Programmers are not as well thought of as they use to be.As an EA who started as a developer, yes you can make good money, but you will have ZERO personal life.If you want to work in IT, become a BA, DBA, Security Admin, or a Unix/Linux SysAdmin.
You will be treated better, get more respect, and although you do have emergency on calls, they treat you much better.Developers are looked upon as assembly line workers today.
Sad, but very true!
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30911744</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264509840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To SirLurksAlot,</p><p>Its not that the developer(s) may or may not know their stuff well. I have seen many overseas programmers work out very well and become the best IT workers in a company.  What makes the difference between those on site and those overseas? Knowledge and experience, pure and simple. Once someone has been in a company or business for quite some time, they will invariably understand their business and practices. It has nothing to do with race or nationality but all to do with experience. Not just IT experience, but business experience and business acumen.</p><p>You cannot teach someone your business in a matter of hours or days. Sure many business processes overlap. But all business domains are different. Trying to create an application for a restaurant is quite different than attempting to create an airline application. Your code may be similar, but the operations that code performs is vastly different.</p><p>You cannot simply teach scalability issues either. You can read books and journals and you should. But supporting a hundred users verses 10,000 is critically different.</p><p>It isn't all the fault of the overseas firms either. Business that outsource their projects want do everything on the cheap. They do not take the time to understand that if you outsource, you have to assign people to oversee that process. This includes the time to perform code reviews and follow ups throughout the process. All requirements must be communicated directly and understood by all parties. However, just as they want development on the cheap, they are cheap on providing those resources as well.</p><p>BTW, if John failed to do what you wrote, John would not have a job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To SirLurksAlot,Its not that the developer ( s ) may or may not know their stuff well .
I have seen many overseas programmers work out very well and become the best IT workers in a company .
What makes the difference between those on site and those overseas ?
Knowledge and experience , pure and simple .
Once someone has been in a company or business for quite some time , they will invariably understand their business and practices .
It has nothing to do with race or nationality but all to do with experience .
Not just IT experience , but business experience and business acumen.You can not teach someone your business in a matter of hours or days .
Sure many business processes overlap .
But all business domains are different .
Trying to create an application for a restaurant is quite different than attempting to create an airline application .
Your code may be similar , but the operations that code performs is vastly different.You can not simply teach scalability issues either .
You can read books and journals and you should .
But supporting a hundred users verses 10,000 is critically different.It is n't all the fault of the overseas firms either .
Business that outsource their projects want do everything on the cheap .
They do not take the time to understand that if you outsource , you have to assign people to oversee that process .
This includes the time to perform code reviews and follow ups throughout the process .
All requirements must be communicated directly and understood by all parties .
However , just as they want development on the cheap , they are cheap on providing those resources as well.BTW , if John failed to do what you wrote , John would not have a job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To SirLurksAlot,Its not that the developer(s) may or may not know their stuff well.
I have seen many overseas programmers work out very well and become the best IT workers in a company.
What makes the difference between those on site and those overseas?
Knowledge and experience, pure and simple.
Once someone has been in a company or business for quite some time, they will invariably understand their business and practices.
It has nothing to do with race or nationality but all to do with experience.
Not just IT experience, but business experience and business acumen.You cannot teach someone your business in a matter of hours or days.
Sure many business processes overlap.
But all business domains are different.
Trying to create an application for a restaurant is quite different than attempting to create an airline application.
Your code may be similar, but the operations that code performs is vastly different.You cannot simply teach scalability issues either.
You can read books and journals and you should.
But supporting a hundred users verses 10,000 is critically different.It isn't all the fault of the overseas firms either.
Business that outsource their projects want do everything on the cheap.
They do not take the time to understand that if you outsource, you have to assign people to oversee that process.
This includes the time to perform code reviews and follow ups throughout the process.
All requirements must be communicated directly and understood by all parties.
However, just as they want development on the cheap, they are cheap on providing those resources as well.BTW, if John failed to do what you wrote, John would not have a job.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906964</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905602</id>
	<title>Pffffft... Lucrative my ass..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264525980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I make less than anyone I know... (maybe I need poorer friends?)</p><p>I have a B.Sc. in Comp Sci, I am a Senior Level Developer, have over 10 years in software and a handful of commercial product to my credit.</p><p>It may not be about the money, but in the end, you feel like a real dumb-ass being paid less than a guy who pushes a broom around just because I am obsessed with computers...</p><p>Maybe I need a 12-step program? Maybe I need a pimp?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I make less than anyone I know... ( maybe I need poorer friends ?
) I have a B.Sc .
in Comp Sci , I am a Senior Level Developer , have over 10 years in software and a handful of commercial product to my credit.It may not be about the money , but in the end , you feel like a real dumb-ass being paid less than a guy who pushes a broom around just because I am obsessed with computers...Maybe I need a 12-step program ?
Maybe I need a pimp ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I make less than anyone I know... (maybe I need poorer friends?
)I have a B.Sc.
in Comp Sci, I am a Senior Level Developer, have over 10 years in software and a handful of commercial product to my credit.It may not be about the money, but in the end, you feel like a real dumb-ass being paid less than a guy who pushes a broom around just because I am obsessed with computers...Maybe I need a 12-step program?
Maybe I need a pimp?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905264</id>
	<title>Re:Not so much</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264524840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You do high risk low pay development for about five years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do high risk low pay development for about five years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You do high risk low pay development for about five years.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903684</id>
	<title>It always sucks in the trenches, regardless of job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264518960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Remember that.  This isn't a phenomenon isolated to IT</p><p>Being a lead dev or architect, or even team lead if you feel inclined to start down the management track, will be very rewarding.</p><p>Being handed a few feature requests every two weeks and slogging around without any creativity will always suck.</p><p>Of course the company you're working for (do they value internal IT?) will play a big part, but I think the biggest contribution to it is how far a person wants to push their career.</p><p>If they're just happy being a midlevel programmer and letting their skillset stagnate<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... well, fuck 'em.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Remember that .
This is n't a phenomenon isolated to ITBeing a lead dev or architect , or even team lead if you feel inclined to start down the management track , will be very rewarding.Being handed a few feature requests every two weeks and slogging around without any creativity will always suck.Of course the company you 're working for ( do they value internal IT ?
) will play a big part , but I think the biggest contribution to it is how far a person wants to push their career.If they 're just happy being a midlevel programmer and letting their skillset stagnate ... well , fuck 'em .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Remember that.
This isn't a phenomenon isolated to ITBeing a lead dev or architect, or even team lead if you feel inclined to start down the management track, will be very rewarding.Being handed a few feature requests every two weeks and slogging around without any creativity will always suck.Of course the company you're working for (do they value internal IT?
) will play a big part, but I think the biggest contribution to it is how far a person wants to push their career.If they're just happy being a midlevel programmer and letting their skillset stagnate ... well, fuck 'em.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905394</id>
	<title>Re:Don't do it!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264525260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bill, is that you?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bill , is that you ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bill, is that you?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904856</id>
	<title>Re:Listen to the suits</title>
	<author>Thaelon</author>
	<datestamp>1264523220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>2. Work at a company who's business is technology, which is still run by a techie. Make sure to leave once the suits take over.</p></div></blockquote><p>I would add, don't even start working for a company if the CEO/owner/top execs <em>aren't</em> techies.</p><p>See Apple, Google, and Craigslist, Blizzard, Valve, and CCP as positive examples.</p><p>See EA, Microsoft, or basically any game publishing company for a negative example.</p><p>The former want to make cool things, and respect what is necessary to do that, the latter just want to make money and sell plastic discs, and they don't care one whit what it takes to make them rich.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>2 .
Work at a company who 's business is technology , which is still run by a techie .
Make sure to leave once the suits take over.I would add , do n't even start working for a company if the CEO/owner/top execs are n't techies.See Apple , Google , and Craigslist , Blizzard , Valve , and CCP as positive examples.See EA , Microsoft , or basically any game publishing company for a negative example.The former want to make cool things , and respect what is necessary to do that , the latter just want to make money and sell plastic discs , and they do n't care one whit what it takes to make them rich .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>2.
Work at a company who's business is technology, which is still run by a techie.
Make sure to leave once the suits take over.I would add, don't even start working for a company if the CEO/owner/top execs aren't techies.See Apple, Google, and Craigslist, Blizzard, Valve, and CCP as positive examples.See EA, Microsoft, or basically any game publishing company for a negative example.The former want to make cool things, and respect what is necessary to do that, the latter just want to make money and sell plastic discs, and they don't care one whit what it takes to make them rich.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905934</id>
	<title>Good</title>
	<author>fmoliveira</author>
	<datestamp>1264527180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm a brazillian programmer and I'm happy to know that most americans make only 2x or 3x what I make instead of the 10x I used to think they make.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a brazillian programmer and I 'm happy to know that most americans make only 2x or 3x what I make instead of the 10x I used to think they make .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a brazillian programmer and I'm happy to know that most americans make only 2x or 3x what I make instead of the 10x I used to think they make.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905338</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>Nursie</author>
	<datestamp>1264525080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hell, being a C programmer with a good reputation and a decade of experience will get you pretty well paid too. Not close to what you can pull down as an Oracle DBA working for the financial sector though.</p><p>You're right - specialise (in something hard!) take on more design, architecture, team leading, managing projects etc and you will go far.</p><p>Me, I've spent 10 years doing what I wanted (C, basically extended exercises in algebra, cipher puzzles and resource IMHO, lots of fun) and being paid well for my efforts. If or when I tire of it I should be able to make a move into management and more generic skills.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hell , being a C programmer with a good reputation and a decade of experience will get you pretty well paid too .
Not close to what you can pull down as an Oracle DBA working for the financial sector though.You 're right - specialise ( in something hard !
) take on more design , architecture , team leading , managing projects etc and you will go far.Me , I 've spent 10 years doing what I wanted ( C , basically extended exercises in algebra , cipher puzzles and resource IMHO , lots of fun ) and being paid well for my efforts .
If or when I tire of it I should be able to make a move into management and more generic skills .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hell, being a C programmer with a good reputation and a decade of experience will get you pretty well paid too.
Not close to what you can pull down as an Oracle DBA working for the financial sector though.You're right - specialise (in something hard!
) take on more design, architecture, team leading, managing projects etc and you will go far.Me, I've spent 10 years doing what I wanted (C, basically extended exercises in algebra, cipher puzzles and resource IMHO, lots of fun) and being paid well for my efforts.
If or when I tire of it I should be able to make a move into management and more generic skills.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904004</id>
	<title>Re:really, 60,000 starting?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264520220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My starting was $54,000 but I had to negotiate for that (They offered 50 and I counter offered more).  5 weeks later I got a new job making 52,000 but paying for my Master's Degree.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My starting was $ 54,000 but I had to negotiate for that ( They offered 50 and I counter offered more ) .
5 weeks later I got a new job making 52,000 but paying for my Master 's Degree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My starting was $54,000 but I had to negotiate for that (They offered 50 and I counter offered more).
5 weeks later I got a new job making 52,000 but paying for my Master's Degree.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903510</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907032</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>Khashishi</author>
	<datestamp>1264531500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's a reason why Drs. command respect.<br>There's a world of difference between graduate school and undergraduate. In undergraduate, you just go to classes, do homework, take tests, and move through the system. The classes might be hard, but it requires very little initiative, and you just do what you are told, and at the end of the day, you've contributed nothing.<br>In grad school, you have to figure out what the hell you are doing, since it won't be given to you. And you'll be producing new ideas and writing papers and writing grant proposals. The experience is completely different.<br>The reason you pay a graduate degree more is not because s/he knows a lot more (and s/he does), but because s/he has what it takes to contribute to further understanding in the company's field, and will have no trouble with meetings or proposals or what have you.<br>And, I don't know where you got the idea that you lose breadth in your topic by studying it in depth.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a reason why Drs .
command respect.There 's a world of difference between graduate school and undergraduate .
In undergraduate , you just go to classes , do homework , take tests , and move through the system .
The classes might be hard , but it requires very little initiative , and you just do what you are told , and at the end of the day , you 've contributed nothing.In grad school , you have to figure out what the hell you are doing , since it wo n't be given to you .
And you 'll be producing new ideas and writing papers and writing grant proposals .
The experience is completely different.The reason you pay a graduate degree more is not because s/he knows a lot more ( and s/he does ) , but because s/he has what it takes to contribute to further understanding in the company 's field , and will have no trouble with meetings or proposals or what have you.And , I do n't know where you got the idea that you lose breadth in your topic by studying it in depth .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a reason why Drs.
command respect.There's a world of difference between graduate school and undergraduate.
In undergraduate, you just go to classes, do homework, take tests, and move through the system.
The classes might be hard, but it requires very little initiative, and you just do what you are told, and at the end of the day, you've contributed nothing.In grad school, you have to figure out what the hell you are doing, since it won't be given to you.
And you'll be producing new ideas and writing papers and writing grant proposals.
The experience is completely different.The reason you pay a graduate degree more is not because s/he knows a lot more (and s/he does), but because s/he has what it takes to contribute to further understanding in the company's field, and will have no trouble with meetings or proposals or what have you.And, I don't know where you got the idea that you lose breadth in your topic by studying it in depth.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908680</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>spirit of reason</author>
	<datestamp>1264538280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Get your EE or ME degree...</p></div><p>It's also important to know the entry-level requirements of the field you want to work in. I made a mistake when I graduated in May; I thought I could find a job in digital systems design/verification (centering at the RTL level). It turns out that only the government looks at someone without a Master's degree.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Get your EE or ME degree...It 's also important to know the entry-level requirements of the field you want to work in .
I made a mistake when I graduated in May ; I thought I could find a job in digital systems design/verification ( centering at the RTL level ) .
It turns out that only the government looks at someone without a Master 's degree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get your EE or ME degree...It's also important to know the entry-level requirements of the field you want to work in.
I made a mistake when I graduated in May; I thought I could find a job in digital systems design/verification (centering at the RTL level).
It turns out that only the government looks at someone without a Master's degree.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904288</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903448</id>
	<title>Depends....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264518000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In my state you must have 10+ years in 5+ languages (even if the language is only 5 years old) and start at $8.00 an hour. Oh, and clerical/janitorial experience a plus!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In my state you must have 10 + years in 5 + languages ( even if the language is only 5 years old ) and start at $ 8.00 an hour .
Oh , and clerical/janitorial experience a plus !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my state you must have 10+ years in 5+ languages (even if the language is only 5 years old) and start at $8.00 an hour.
Oh, and clerical/janitorial experience a plus!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30911924</id>
	<title>Re:No.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264511040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>was there ever a more appropriate story for Dogbert's advice?</p><p>&ldquo;Beware of taking advice from the very successful because, as a rule, they don&rsquo;t want company.&rdquo;</p></div><p>A great man once said, "In order for someone to win, someone else must lose.".</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>was there ever a more appropriate story for Dogbert 's advice ?    Beware of taking advice from the very successful because , as a rule , they don    t want company.    A great man once said , " In order for someone to win , someone else must lose .
" .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>was there ever a more appropriate story for Dogbert's advice?“Beware of taking advice from the very successful because, as a rule, they don’t want company.”A great man once said, "In order for someone to win, someone else must lose.
".
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904828</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905494</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264525620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I could give a shit about "breadth of knowledge."</i></p><p>Wow, just, wow. Knowing C, as you put it, "***EXTREMELY*** well", doesn't give a programmer the insight to know what algorithm to use (do they even know what Big-O notation is, much less how to analyze an algorithm?), structure data to take advantage of cache hits or a whole host of other issues that few BS programs expose a person to in depth. Can your programmer program? Sure, as long as you've got an architect defining every aspect of every function/interface/algo to use. Might as well farm it out to Bangalore where they'll code for $10/hr.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I could give a shit about " breadth of knowledge .
" Wow , just , wow .
Knowing C , as you put it , " * * * EXTREMELY * * * well " , does n't give a programmer the insight to know what algorithm to use ( do they even know what Big-O notation is , much less how to analyze an algorithm ?
) , structure data to take advantage of cache hits or a whole host of other issues that few BS programs expose a person to in depth .
Can your programmer program ?
Sure , as long as you 've got an architect defining every aspect of every function/interface/algo to use .
Might as well farm it out to Bangalore where they 'll code for $ 10/hr .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I could give a shit about "breadth of knowledge.
"Wow, just, wow.
Knowing C, as you put it, "***EXTREMELY*** well", doesn't give a programmer the insight to know what algorithm to use (do they even know what Big-O notation is, much less how to analyze an algorithm?
), structure data to take advantage of cache hits or a whole host of other issues that few BS programs expose a person to in depth.
Can your programmer program?
Sure, as long as you've got an architect defining every aspect of every function/interface/algo to use.
Might as well farm it out to Bangalore where they'll code for $10/hr.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906050</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264527660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I get almost 50k $ annually as a web developer, am the best in the company, producing a lot of profit for the company. I did get quite fast into this position, but the sad thing is that everything costs probably double or more than in US, and taxes are atleast double. Sucks living in Finland.</p><p>The irony is that people tell me i have a good salary, how come then couple months of each year i have to loan some money to even get some food &amp; money for commute gas? Nevermind having fun<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I get almost 50k $ annually as a web developer , am the best in the company , producing a lot of profit for the company .
I did get quite fast into this position , but the sad thing is that everything costs probably double or more than in US , and taxes are atleast double .
Sucks living in Finland.The irony is that people tell me i have a good salary , how come then couple months of each year i have to loan some money to even get some food &amp; money for commute gas ?
Nevermind having fun .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I get almost 50k $ annually as a web developer, am the best in the company, producing a lot of profit for the company.
I did get quite fast into this position, but the sad thing is that everything costs probably double or more than in US, and taxes are atleast double.
Sucks living in Finland.The irony is that people tell me i have a good salary, how come then couple months of each year i have to loan some money to even get some food &amp; money for commute gas?
Nevermind having fun ...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903584</id>
	<title>Hyperspecialization</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264518600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm a contractor working at a 30k employee company that is almost exclusively Linux / Java / Oracle.  Even though they have dozens of Java programmers they couldn't get any of them to pick up VS C# / Windows Mobile fast enough to support all of  their mobile devices.<br> <br>
The position is going to be long term and pays 80k+ per year because of the limited number of programmers skilled in C# / Corporate Mobile &amp; Web applications.  I guess you could say I made a deal with the Devil by going MS exclusively, but it pays the bills.
<br> <br>
William Howell</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a contractor working at a 30k employee company that is almost exclusively Linux / Java / Oracle .
Even though they have dozens of Java programmers they could n't get any of them to pick up VS C # / Windows Mobile fast enough to support all of their mobile devices .
The position is going to be long term and pays 80k + per year because of the limited number of programmers skilled in C # / Corporate Mobile &amp; Web applications .
I guess you could say I made a deal with the Devil by going MS exclusively , but it pays the bills .
William Howell</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a contractor working at a 30k employee company that is almost exclusively Linux / Java / Oracle.
Even though they have dozens of Java programmers they couldn't get any of them to pick up VS C# / Windows Mobile fast enough to support all of  their mobile devices.
The position is going to be long term and pays 80k+ per year because of the limited number of programmers skilled in C# / Corporate Mobile &amp; Web applications.
I guess you could say I made a deal with the Devil by going MS exclusively, but it pays the bills.
William Howell</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903454</id>
	<title>No.</title>
	<author>FileNotFound</author>
	<datestamp>1264518000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unless you're in India.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless you 're in India .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless you're in India.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30910386</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperspecialization</title>
	<author>dunkelfalke</author>
	<datestamp>1264502520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>WTF? I used to develop in C# for Windows Mobile, picked up Java when I was unemployed for a couple of months. There is only little difference between Java and C# syntax.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>WTF ?
I used to develop in C # for Windows Mobile , picked up Java when I was unemployed for a couple of months .
There is only little difference between Java and C # syntax .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>WTF?
I used to develop in C# for Windows Mobile, picked up Java when I was unemployed for a couple of months.
There is only little difference between Java and C# syntax.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903584</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905550</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Gilmoure</author>
	<datestamp>1264525800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A friend of mine went through this as a graphic designer, in the 80's. Once Adobe software showed up on the receptionists' desk, she knew it was time to get out. By not forming a professional group, they let their worth be watered down.</p><p>What programmers need to do is form a professional society that has licensing, regular career development, etc. and get employers to sign on and have various levels of gov't require licensed work for public software projects. 'Course, this may be too late. Probably shoulda' been done back in the 90's.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A friend of mine went through this as a graphic designer , in the 80 's .
Once Adobe software showed up on the receptionists ' desk , she knew it was time to get out .
By not forming a professional group , they let their worth be watered down.What programmers need to do is form a professional society that has licensing , regular career development , etc .
and get employers to sign on and have various levels of gov't require licensed work for public software projects .
'Course , this may be too late .
Probably shoulda ' been done back in the 90 's .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A friend of mine went through this as a graphic designer, in the 80's.
Once Adobe software showed up on the receptionists' desk, she knew it was time to get out.
By not forming a professional group, they let their worth be watered down.What programmers need to do is form a professional society that has licensing, regular career development, etc.
and get employers to sign on and have various levels of gov't require licensed work for public software projects.
'Course, this may be too late.
Probably shoulda' been done back in the 90's.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903562</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905692</id>
	<title>Program because you enjoy it...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264526280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are a ton of factors to take into account; but overall, I'd say programming as a profession is pretty much second to lowest on the pay scale (with testing being the lowest).  If you really want high pay, your best bet is less programming and more project management and team leading.</p><p>What I've noticed from most people is a rather unreasonable starting salary after they graduate.  It would be awesome to get a $100K or even a $60K job right after finishing the BSci.  However, at best you are a lightly experienced junior with little to no knowledge of the corporate world.  Expect to not even begin programming right away; EXPECT to spend a few months doing software testing or software support.  Many companies do this to give a level of knowledge about their products BEFORE you begin coding on them.  Expect a payscale to match.</p><p>For example; I finished my Masters in CS in 2006.  I started as a software tester at $37K.  In 6 months, I was promoted to Junior developer, then to Senior, then to Programmer Analyst.  I'm still not earning megabucks ($50K), but I've still only been in the workplace for 3-4 years.  At this point, I could leave the company I'm with an make possibly twice that (see: http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1524766&amp;cid=30903688), but I'd likely get stuck as a contractor, no benefits, and  even less job security than I have now.  I can live on this salary, in Ottawa (Canada), at least.  And it does slowly get better each year:  experience and effort brings rewards; not education and a deserving attitude (though education will at least give you a 5-10K boost above someone else when starting).</p><p>Accept that unless you're Linus, you're probably not very hot looking to a prospective employer.  It becomes more lucrative as you specialize, gain experience, and get better references.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are a ton of factors to take into account ; but overall , I 'd say programming as a profession is pretty much second to lowest on the pay scale ( with testing being the lowest ) .
If you really want high pay , your best bet is less programming and more project management and team leading.What I 've noticed from most people is a rather unreasonable starting salary after they graduate .
It would be awesome to get a $ 100K or even a $ 60K job right after finishing the BSci .
However , at best you are a lightly experienced junior with little to no knowledge of the corporate world .
Expect to not even begin programming right away ; EXPECT to spend a few months doing software testing or software support .
Many companies do this to give a level of knowledge about their products BEFORE you begin coding on them .
Expect a payscale to match.For example ; I finished my Masters in CS in 2006 .
I started as a software tester at $ 37K .
In 6 months , I was promoted to Junior developer , then to Senior , then to Programmer Analyst .
I 'm still not earning megabucks ( $ 50K ) , but I 've still only been in the workplace for 3-4 years .
At this point , I could leave the company I 'm with an make possibly twice that ( see : http : //developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl ? sid = 1524766&amp;cid = 30903688 ) , but I 'd likely get stuck as a contractor , no benefits , and even less job security than I have now .
I can live on this salary , in Ottawa ( Canada ) , at least .
And it does slowly get better each year : experience and effort brings rewards ; not education and a deserving attitude ( though education will at least give you a 5-10K boost above someone else when starting ) .Accept that unless you 're Linus , you 're probably not very hot looking to a prospective employer .
It becomes more lucrative as you specialize , gain experience , and get better references .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are a ton of factors to take into account; but overall, I'd say programming as a profession is pretty much second to lowest on the pay scale (with testing being the lowest).
If you really want high pay, your best bet is less programming and more project management and team leading.What I've noticed from most people is a rather unreasonable starting salary after they graduate.
It would be awesome to get a $100K or even a $60K job right after finishing the BSci.
However, at best you are a lightly experienced junior with little to no knowledge of the corporate world.
Expect to not even begin programming right away; EXPECT to spend a few months doing software testing or software support.
Many companies do this to give a level of knowledge about their products BEFORE you begin coding on them.
Expect a payscale to match.For example; I finished my Masters in CS in 2006.
I started as a software tester at $37K.
In 6 months, I was promoted to Junior developer, then to Senior, then to Programmer Analyst.
I'm still not earning megabucks ($50K), but I've still only been in the workplace for 3-4 years.
At this point, I could leave the company I'm with an make possibly twice that (see: http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1524766&amp;cid=30903688), but I'd likely get stuck as a contractor, no benefits, and  even less job security than I have now.
I can live on this salary, in Ottawa (Canada), at least.
And it does slowly get better each year:  experience and effort brings rewards; not education and a deserving attitude (though education will at least give you a 5-10K boost above someone else when starting).Accept that unless you're Linus, you're probably not very hot looking to a prospective employer.
It becomes more lucrative as you specialize, gain experience, and get better references.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30917944</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>AthleteMusicianNerd</author>
	<datestamp>1264610220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You're not a real programmer.  You should be writing in machine language.  Real programmers don't use unpredictable tools like assemblers and compilers.  You shouldn't use a keyboard either to input these opcodes.  That's cheating, you should be using punch cards.  Ugh, I can't stand people who use kiddie languages like C, C++, Ada, Fortran, or assembly.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're not a real programmer .
You should be writing in machine language .
Real programmers do n't use unpredictable tools like assemblers and compilers .
You should n't use a keyboard either to input these opcodes .
That 's cheating , you should be using punch cards .
Ugh , I ca n't stand people who use kiddie languages like C , C + + , Ada , Fortran , or assembly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're not a real programmer.
You should be writing in machine language.
Real programmers don't use unpredictable tools like assemblers and compilers.
You shouldn't use a keyboard either to input these opcodes.
That's cheating, you should be using punch cards.
Ugh, I can't stand people who use kiddie languages like C, C++, Ada, Fortran, or assembly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908776</id>
	<title>Re:missing number</title>
	<author>frosty\_tsm</author>
	<datestamp>1264538700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I wonder if these statistics come from the people placed by the career center.  My experience is that only the top (or upper portion) of the class gets hired this way, and often by larger organizations that have money and resources to pay them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I wonder if these statistics come from the people placed by the career center .
My experience is that only the top ( or upper portion ) of the class gets hired this way , and often by larger organizations that have money and resources to pay them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wonder if these statistics come from the people placed by the career center.
My experience is that only the top (or upper portion) of the class gets hired this way, and often by larger organizations that have money and resources to pay them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903472</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906058</id>
	<title>Anecdotal Evidence</title>
	<author>jwkfs</author>
	<datestamp>1264527660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I graduated in 2008 with a BS in CS from a large state university; probably a middle of the pack program.  I got a job offer right out of school for 63.5K. -- So the figures don't seem particularly outlandish to me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I graduated in 2008 with a BS in CS from a large state university ; probably a middle of the pack program .
I got a job offer right out of school for 63.5K .
-- So the figures do n't seem particularly outlandish to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I graduated in 2008 with a BS in CS from a large state university; probably a middle of the pack program.
I got a job offer right out of school for 63.5K.
-- So the figures don't seem particularly outlandish to me.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909376</id>
	<title>Re:the key to earning well in this field</title>
	<author>david\_thornley</author>
	<datestamp>1264498320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Salary is always negotiable.  That doesn't mean you'll get what you want, but it does mean you might.  It means that you should ask for raises you think you deserve.
</p><p>
If you have nothing to say or ask for annually, you'll get pay increases that might keep up with the cost of living.  If you job-hop, you'll benefit from the idea that you should get a raise, so you won't have to negotiate hard.  If you have a good idea how much more you're worth, and good reasons to present, ask for what you think you deserve.  Provide the reasons.  Market comparisons are good, as is increased responsibility.
</p><p>
Don't get emotional, but don't back down too easily.  Make it clear that you want to continue to work at the company, but you also want to be paid appropriately.  Listen to what your manager is saying, and be ready to compromise.
</p><p>
Once, I was in a job I really liked, at an unfortunately low salary.  I pointed out, in one negotiation, that just giving me a reasonable-looking percent raise would leave me underpaid, and suggested a figure.  My manager said he couldn't do more than a reasonable percent increase, the budget already having been made, so I asked for assurance that we'd talk about market rates in my next annual review, when I did get a large raise to what I thought a reasonably fair salary.  It wasn't really fun negotiating, but I was open about what I wanted and why, didn't get emotional, was willing to work with the process, and did wind up with a reasonable salary with no hard feelings on either side.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Salary is always negotiable .
That does n't mean you 'll get what you want , but it does mean you might .
It means that you should ask for raises you think you deserve .
If you have nothing to say or ask for annually , you 'll get pay increases that might keep up with the cost of living .
If you job-hop , you 'll benefit from the idea that you should get a raise , so you wo n't have to negotiate hard .
If you have a good idea how much more you 're worth , and good reasons to present , ask for what you think you deserve .
Provide the reasons .
Market comparisons are good , as is increased responsibility .
Do n't get emotional , but do n't back down too easily .
Make it clear that you want to continue to work at the company , but you also want to be paid appropriately .
Listen to what your manager is saying , and be ready to compromise .
Once , I was in a job I really liked , at an unfortunately low salary .
I pointed out , in one negotiation , that just giving me a reasonable-looking percent raise would leave me underpaid , and suggested a figure .
My manager said he could n't do more than a reasonable percent increase , the budget already having been made , so I asked for assurance that we 'd talk about market rates in my next annual review , when I did get a large raise to what I thought a reasonably fair salary .
It was n't really fun negotiating , but I was open about what I wanted and why , did n't get emotional , was willing to work with the process , and did wind up with a reasonable salary with no hard feelings on either side .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Salary is always negotiable.
That doesn't mean you'll get what you want, but it does mean you might.
It means that you should ask for raises you think you deserve.
If you have nothing to say or ask for annually, you'll get pay increases that might keep up with the cost of living.
If you job-hop, you'll benefit from the idea that you should get a raise, so you won't have to negotiate hard.
If you have a good idea how much more you're worth, and good reasons to present, ask for what you think you deserve.
Provide the reasons.
Market comparisons are good, as is increased responsibility.
Don't get emotional, but don't back down too easily.
Make it clear that you want to continue to work at the company, but you also want to be paid appropriately.
Listen to what your manager is saying, and be ready to compromise.
Once, I was in a job I really liked, at an unfortunately low salary.
I pointed out, in one negotiation, that just giving me a reasonable-looking percent raise would leave me underpaid, and suggested a figure.
My manager said he couldn't do more than a reasonable percent increase, the budget already having been made, so I asked for assurance that we'd talk about market rates in my next annual review, when I did get a large raise to what I thought a reasonably fair salary.
It wasn't really fun negotiating, but I was open about what I wanted and why, didn't get emotional, was willing to work with the process, and did wind up with a reasonable salary with no hard feelings on either side.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30910474</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264502880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My boss has a hand sketched cartoon on his wall regarding good/bad code during a code review. The measure of good code vs bad code is the number of WTF? / minute.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My boss has a hand sketched cartoon on his wall regarding good/bad code during a code review .
The measure of good code vs bad code is the number of WTF ?
/ minute .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My boss has a hand sketched cartoon on his wall regarding good/bad code during a code review.
The measure of good code vs bad code is the number of WTF?
/ minute.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908334</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907262</id>
	<title>So how are things at Lockmart?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264532400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I remember the day the SEI compliance group delivered the triumphant metametric that they were now collecting almost 54\% of the required metrics. Meanwhile, the guy HR had delivered as a C programmer proved absolutely incapable of producing a program which might oneday output the text "hello world.". Process + HR is a lethal combo.<br>--<br>phunctor</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I remember the day the SEI compliance group delivered the triumphant metametric that they were now collecting almost 54 \ % of the required metrics .
Meanwhile , the guy HR had delivered as a C programmer proved absolutely incapable of producing a program which might oneday output the text " hello world. " .
Process + HR is a lethal combo.--phunctor</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I remember the day the SEI compliance group delivered the triumphant metametric that they were now collecting almost 54\% of the required metrics.
Meanwhile, the guy HR had delivered as a C programmer proved absolutely incapable of producing a program which might oneday output the text "hello world.".
Process + HR is a lethal combo.--phunctor</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907822</id>
	<title>Re:Resume</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264534860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ha!  I'm proficient in A, B and D as well!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ha !
I 'm proficient in A , B and D as well !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ha!
I'm proficient in A, B and D as well!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903598</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907484</id>
	<title>Re:Resume</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264533540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Reason for termination: C++++ would not hire again.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Reason for termination : C + + + + would not hire again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Reason for termination: C++++ would not hire again.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903598</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903916</id>
	<title>Salary</title>
	<author>Herkum01</author>
	<datestamp>1264519920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have been principally been a Perl Programmer so that is the market I know, but the salaries I looked at have been all over the place with a good bit of it depending on location.</p><p> Recently I was looking at Sr Developer positions in LA, NYC, Nashville, and Austin.</p><ul>
  <li>The company in Austin, TX was willing to pay relocation and $90/K (top level). They went with someone local due to because they wanted to hire quick.</li><li>I looked at two jobs in LA seriously, neither was really willing to go over $90/K with a third company willing to go as high as $110/K but only for a elite guy.</li><li>I looked but not hard in NYC, and their salary ranges were from $80/K to $120/K.  One company I wanted to interview wanted only to pay $90/K but could not even bother to pick me up from the airport.  F*ck that!</li><li>I interviewed in Nashville, the highest they were willing to go was $80/K.  We just did not click.</li></ul><p>Now I technically have 10+ years of programming experience.  If I stayed one place as a programmer (theoretically speaking) I might have gotten to an architect level position and earned 150K.  Or you some Chinese super guru out of school, some companies will throw money at you, but that is a rarity.</p><p>I had also seen positions where companies wanted you telecommute for 10/hour because they thought that was what they could get from some guy in Russia or India.</p><p>Basically, if you become a programmer, you are going to be treated as skilled labor. Skilled but still labor and they will never be interested in paying you more because they will have no way of determining if you are good at your job.  At that point, you will need to job boat to get a real raise. Then you need to know how large the market is for a particular technology in your area, otherwise you will end up moving all over the place.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have been principally been a Perl Programmer so that is the market I know , but the salaries I looked at have been all over the place with a good bit of it depending on location .
Recently I was looking at Sr Developer positions in LA , NYC , Nashville , and Austin .
The company in Austin , TX was willing to pay relocation and $ 90/K ( top level ) .
They went with someone local due to because they wanted to hire quick.I looked at two jobs in LA seriously , neither was really willing to go over $ 90/K with a third company willing to go as high as $ 110/K but only for a elite guy.I looked but not hard in NYC , and their salary ranges were from $ 80/K to $ 120/K .
One company I wanted to interview wanted only to pay $ 90/K but could not even bother to pick me up from the airport .
F * ck that ! I interviewed in Nashville , the highest they were willing to go was $ 80/K .
We just did not click.Now I technically have 10 + years of programming experience .
If I stayed one place as a programmer ( theoretically speaking ) I might have gotten to an architect level position and earned 150K .
Or you some Chinese super guru out of school , some companies will throw money at you , but that is a rarity.I had also seen positions where companies wanted you telecommute for 10/hour because they thought that was what they could get from some guy in Russia or India.Basically , if you become a programmer , you are going to be treated as skilled labor .
Skilled but still labor and they will never be interested in paying you more because they will have no way of determining if you are good at your job .
At that point , you will need to job boat to get a real raise .
Then you need to know how large the market is for a particular technology in your area , otherwise you will end up moving all over the place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have been principally been a Perl Programmer so that is the market I know, but the salaries I looked at have been all over the place with a good bit of it depending on location.
Recently I was looking at Sr Developer positions in LA, NYC, Nashville, and Austin.
The company in Austin, TX was willing to pay relocation and $90/K (top level).
They went with someone local due to because they wanted to hire quick.I looked at two jobs in LA seriously, neither was really willing to go over $90/K with a third company willing to go as high as $110/K but only for a elite guy.I looked but not hard in NYC, and their salary ranges were from $80/K to $120/K.
One company I wanted to interview wanted only to pay $90/K but could not even bother to pick me up from the airport.
F*ck that!I interviewed in Nashville, the highest they were willing to go was $80/K.
We just did not click.Now I technically have 10+ years of programming experience.
If I stayed one place as a programmer (theoretically speaking) I might have gotten to an architect level position and earned 150K.
Or you some Chinese super guru out of school, some companies will throw money at you, but that is a rarity.I had also seen positions where companies wanted you telecommute for 10/hour because they thought that was what they could get from some guy in Russia or India.Basically, if you become a programmer, you are going to be treated as skilled labor.
Skilled but still labor and they will never be interested in paying you more because they will have no way of determining if you are good at your job.
At that point, you will need to job boat to get a real raise.
Then you need to know how large the market is for a particular technology in your area, otherwise you will end up moving all over the place.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903470</id>
	<title>Not so much</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264518060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you have experience, and are willing to lead a team, you can make decent money.  Of course, how do you get experience?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you have experience , and are willing to lead a team , you can make decent money .
Of course , how do you get experience ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you have experience, and are willing to lead a team, you can make decent money.
Of course, how do you get experience?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907296</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>Big\_Mamma</author>
	<datestamp>1264532580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Because using the right tool for the right task is an essential part of software development. <br> <br>

Java is a silly example for your situation, but if you work on a shell regularly, a mix of bash / python / regex skills will get your job done much faster. People who can <i>master</i> new skills relatively easy win the "breath of knowledge" contest, and it's those I'll be looking for, or we'll be left for dead when anything changes. <br> <br>

Tools for embedded systems don't change that quickly, but in web development, we went through PHP 4, PHP 5 which is basically a whole new language to a combination of python and java servlets, and evaluated all other promising options. Being <i>extremely</i> good in a single thing but nothing else means you're out of a job in a few years.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Because using the right tool for the right task is an essential part of software development .
Java is a silly example for your situation , but if you work on a shell regularly , a mix of bash / python / regex skills will get your job done much faster .
People who can master new skills relatively easy win the " breath of knowledge " contest , and it 's those I 'll be looking for , or we 'll be left for dead when anything changes .
Tools for embedded systems do n't change that quickly , but in web development , we went through PHP 4 , PHP 5 which is basically a whole new language to a combination of python and java servlets , and evaluated all other promising options .
Being extremely good in a single thing but nothing else means you 're out of a job in a few years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because using the right tool for the right task is an essential part of software development.
Java is a silly example for your situation, but if you work on a shell regularly, a mix of bash / python / regex skills will get your job done much faster.
People who can master new skills relatively easy win the "breath of knowledge" contest, and it's those I'll be looking for, or we'll be left for dead when anything changes.
Tools for embedded systems don't change that quickly, but in web development, we went through PHP 4, PHP 5 which is basically a whole new language to a combination of python and java servlets, and evaluated all other promising options.
Being extremely good in a single thing but nothing else means you're out of a job in a few years.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905116</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264524300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I want to work for you. You sound really nice.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I want to work for you .
You sound really nice .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I want to work for you.
You sound really nice.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905360</id>
	<title>It comes down to , is it hard</title>
	<author>Shivetya</author>
	<datestamp>1264525140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>or is it focused, if not both.</p><p>I know many "programmers" but honestly, if schools can churn them out what can you really expect to be paid.</p><p>Let alone the one fact I have found that holds true, those with ability AND initiative always do better.  They may still hit the downs and such but they are faster rebounding</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>or is it focused , if not both.I know many " programmers " but honestly , if schools can churn them out what can you really expect to be paid.Let alone the one fact I have found that holds true , those with ability AND initiative always do better .
They may still hit the downs and such but they are faster rebounding</tokentext>
<sentencetext>or is it focused, if not both.I know many "programmers" but honestly, if schools can churn them out what can you really expect to be paid.Let alone the one fact I have found that holds true, those with ability AND initiative always do better.
They may still hit the downs and such but they are faster rebounding</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904822</id>
	<title>There are programmers and programmers...</title>
	<author>Kensai7</author>
	<datestamp>1264523100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you happen to read the <a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm" title="bls.gov">BLS 2010-2011 Occupational Outlook Handbook</a> [bls.gov] for programmers, you'll see they are making a great distinction between simple <strong>programmers</strong> and <strong>software engineers</strong>. In fact, the good outlook is only for the software engineers (+32\% until 2018) leaving the programmers at -3\%. Please read the report where they give the explanation for the difference between these two kinds of developers, which might be technical, but really important to understand the powers of the market.</p><p>Programmers, unfortunately, can be easily outsourced, leaving much competition and perhaps lower salaries. Really well-prepared software engineers, on the other hand, will almost always thrive because they need to be physically near the places of R&amp;D and new paradigms, talking face-to-face with customers, and experience the IT evolution first-hand. You can't always do that from Bangalore.</p><p>Similar definitions and hints you can find at the German <a href="http://berufenet.arbeitsagentur.de/berufe/start?dest=profession&amp;prof-id=58603" title="arbeitsagentur.de">BERUFENET</a> [arbeitsagentur.de] about Computer Scientists and their various branches. Simple coders (programmers) are always the peons.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you happen to read the BLS 2010-2011 Occupational Outlook Handbook [ bls.gov ] for programmers , you 'll see they are making a great distinction between simple programmers and software engineers .
In fact , the good outlook is only for the software engineers ( + 32 \ % until 2018 ) leaving the programmers at -3 \ % .
Please read the report where they give the explanation for the difference between these two kinds of developers , which might be technical , but really important to understand the powers of the market.Programmers , unfortunately , can be easily outsourced , leaving much competition and perhaps lower salaries .
Really well-prepared software engineers , on the other hand , will almost always thrive because they need to be physically near the places of R&amp;D and new paradigms , talking face-to-face with customers , and experience the IT evolution first-hand .
You ca n't always do that from Bangalore.Similar definitions and hints you can find at the German BERUFENET [ arbeitsagentur.de ] about Computer Scientists and their various branches .
Simple coders ( programmers ) are always the peons .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you happen to read the BLS 2010-2011 Occupational Outlook Handbook [bls.gov] for programmers, you'll see they are making a great distinction between simple programmers and software engineers.
In fact, the good outlook is only for the software engineers (+32\% until 2018) leaving the programmers at -3\%.
Please read the report where they give the explanation for the difference between these two kinds of developers, which might be technical, but really important to understand the powers of the market.Programmers, unfortunately, can be easily outsourced, leaving much competition and perhaps lower salaries.
Really well-prepared software engineers, on the other hand, will almost always thrive because they need to be physically near the places of R&amp;D and new paradigms, talking face-to-face with customers, and experience the IT evolution first-hand.
You can't always do that from Bangalore.Similar definitions and hints you can find at the German BERUFENET [arbeitsagentur.de] about Computer Scientists and their various branches.
Simple coders (programmers) are always the peons.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906500</id>
	<title>Only slightly inflated.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264529220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm going to be flamed for this, but the numbers for graduates from my university (UIUC) aren't that far off.</p><p>For 2008-2009:</p><p>Bachelor's: $26,000-100,000 with a mean of $72,286 (NACE average: $58,419).<br>MS: $30,000-96,000 with a mean of $75,125 (looks like getting an MS is not that helpful!) NACE average: $70,625<br>PhD: $65,000-104,000 with a mean of $90,466 (NACE average: $83,000)</p><p>Now, the university is ranked about 5th in the country for CS.</p><p>It seems that employers really value the BS and PhD degrees from there, but not so much the MS.</p><p>All the salaries except the NACE ones are self reported - the university isn't doing any inflation or guesstimates. It could be that people with low salaries don't report, but the numbers for MS and PhD coincide with what I heard personally from graduates.</p><p>And for everyone whining about H-1, etc - the salaries obtained by foreign students here were pretty much the same as those offered to Americans. They all were, though, fairly smart folks.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm going to be flamed for this , but the numbers for graduates from my university ( UIUC ) are n't that far off.For 2008-2009 : Bachelor 's : $ 26,000-100,000 with a mean of $ 72,286 ( NACE average : $ 58,419 ) .MS : $ 30,000-96,000 with a mean of $ 75,125 ( looks like getting an MS is not that helpful !
) NACE average : $ 70,625PhD : $ 65,000-104,000 with a mean of $ 90,466 ( NACE average : $ 83,000 ) Now , the university is ranked about 5th in the country for CS.It seems that employers really value the BS and PhD degrees from there , but not so much the MS.All the salaries except the NACE ones are self reported - the university is n't doing any inflation or guesstimates .
It could be that people with low salaries do n't report , but the numbers for MS and PhD coincide with what I heard personally from graduates.And for everyone whining about H-1 , etc - the salaries obtained by foreign students here were pretty much the same as those offered to Americans .
They all were , though , fairly smart folks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm going to be flamed for this, but the numbers for graduates from my university (UIUC) aren't that far off.For 2008-2009:Bachelor's: $26,000-100,000 with a mean of $72,286 (NACE average: $58,419).MS: $30,000-96,000 with a mean of $75,125 (looks like getting an MS is not that helpful!
) NACE average: $70,625PhD: $65,000-104,000 with a mean of $90,466 (NACE average: $83,000)Now, the university is ranked about 5th in the country for CS.It seems that employers really value the BS and PhD degrees from there, but not so much the MS.All the salaries except the NACE ones are self reported - the university isn't doing any inflation or guesstimates.
It could be that people with low salaries don't report, but the numbers for MS and PhD coincide with what I heard personally from graduates.And for everyone whining about H-1, etc - the salaries obtained by foreign students here were pretty much the same as those offered to Americans.
They all were, though, fairly smart folks.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907944</id>
	<title>Re:Not so much</title>
	<author>IICV</author>
	<datestamp>1264535340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Given how willing companies are to hire novice programmers, you gain experience either by magic or by lying.</p><p>It's almost like they don't realize that the minor cost incurred due to training a novice programmer now is totally outweighed by the awesome programmer they'll have with a few years of real-world experience.</p><p>But these companies that never look more than a year ahead and screw their employees at the drop of a hat would surely have some foresight, right?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Given how willing companies are to hire novice programmers , you gain experience either by magic or by lying.It 's almost like they do n't realize that the minor cost incurred due to training a novice programmer now is totally outweighed by the awesome programmer they 'll have with a few years of real-world experience.But these companies that never look more than a year ahead and screw their employees at the drop of a hat would surely have some foresight , right ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Given how willing companies are to hire novice programmers, you gain experience either by magic or by lying.It's almost like they don't realize that the minor cost incurred due to training a novice programmer now is totally outweighed by the awesome programmer they'll have with a few years of real-world experience.But these companies that never look more than a year ahead and screw their employees at the drop of a hat would surely have some foresight, right?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906386</id>
	<title>Top students get top salaries ... duh</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264528920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I teach at a top-tier R1 (research) university.  Our CS graduates routinely get offers for $70-90K with a Bachelor's degree.  I have colleagues at average state schools who say their students get much lower salaries, assuming they can find a job during the recession.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I teach at a top-tier R1 ( research ) university .
Our CS graduates routinely get offers for $ 70-90K with a Bachelor 's degree .
I have colleagues at average state schools who say their students get much lower salaries , assuming they can find a job during the recession .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I teach at a top-tier R1 (research) university.
Our CS graduates routinely get offers for $70-90K with a Bachelor's degree.
I have colleagues at average state schools who say their students get much lower salaries, assuming they can find a job during the recession.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30913104</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>Genda</author>
	<datestamp>1264521600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem with specialization is that you are very prone to becoming a victim of evolution. I had a friend who wrote postscript machine code for printers. She designed the entire postscript driver microcode for whole generations of printers. Needless to say she took several trips to Japan or Korea a year and honestly lived like a goddess. I haven't talked to her in a while, but I'm guessing she either enlarged her specialty, or is doing something different (embedded applications is still a very healthy specialization, and includes some of the more interesting topics available today including robotics.)</p><p>If you're going to be unique, make certain the need for your service is tied to a huge, fundamental, common need, that has no concern of going away.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem with specialization is that you are very prone to becoming a victim of evolution .
I had a friend who wrote postscript machine code for printers .
She designed the entire postscript driver microcode for whole generations of printers .
Needless to say she took several trips to Japan or Korea a year and honestly lived like a goddess .
I have n't talked to her in a while , but I 'm guessing she either enlarged her specialty , or is doing something different ( embedded applications is still a very healthy specialization , and includes some of the more interesting topics available today including robotics .
) If you 're going to be unique , make certain the need for your service is tied to a huge , fundamental , common need , that has no concern of going away .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem with specialization is that you are very prone to becoming a victim of evolution.
I had a friend who wrote postscript machine code for printers.
She designed the entire postscript driver microcode for whole generations of printers.
Needless to say she took several trips to Japan or Korea a year and honestly lived like a goddess.
I haven't talked to her in a while, but I'm guessing she either enlarged her specialty, or is doing something different (embedded applications is still a very healthy specialization, and includes some of the more interesting topics available today including robotics.
)If you're going to be unique, make certain the need for your service is tied to a huge, fundamental, common need, that has no concern of going away.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30911602</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>CodeBuster</author>
	<datestamp>1264509000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I would attribute part of this to the culture in India. You see, India is not a first world country, despite their best aspirations, and what is considered an "acceptable" or even a quality solution in India is often not up to American or European standards. If you complain about this you often receive confused looks or angry retorts in reply because they are actually <i>proud</i> of their spaghetti code mess. They will argue that it works and meets the external spec so what is your problem? One can get a glimpse of this by watching videos of Indian traffic jams, complete with crazy mishmashes of cables connecting buildings in every which way and spliced hundreds of times in countless haphazard directions. This is "normal" to them, especially if they have never been overseas.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would attribute part of this to the culture in India .
You see , India is not a first world country , despite their best aspirations , and what is considered an " acceptable " or even a quality solution in India is often not up to American or European standards .
If you complain about this you often receive confused looks or angry retorts in reply because they are actually proud of their spaghetti code mess .
They will argue that it works and meets the external spec so what is your problem ?
One can get a glimpse of this by watching videos of Indian traffic jams , complete with crazy mishmashes of cables connecting buildings in every which way and spliced hundreds of times in countless haphazard directions .
This is " normal " to them , especially if they have never been overseas .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would attribute part of this to the culture in India.
You see, India is not a first world country, despite their best aspirations, and what is considered an "acceptable" or even a quality solution in India is often not up to American or European standards.
If you complain about this you often receive confused looks or angry retorts in reply because they are actually proud of their spaghetti code mess.
They will argue that it works and meets the external spec so what is your problem?
One can get a glimpse of this by watching videos of Indian traffic jams, complete with crazy mishmashes of cables connecting buildings in every which way and spliced hundreds of times in countless haphazard directions.
This is "normal" to them, especially if they have never been overseas.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908334</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903908</id>
	<title>no-hire and non-compete agreements</title>
	<author>rev\_sanchez</author>
	<datestamp>1264519860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>No-hire and non-compete agreements are pretty common in contracts especially when the development work is specialized.  This sidelines a lot of talent and helps exacerbate the software developer labor shortage employers are always complaining about.  It also lowers wages for developers since they'd have more trouble finding work if they left their job.  I think we need to severly limit what kind of restrictions companies can place on their employees' future job prospects.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No-hire and non-compete agreements are pretty common in contracts especially when the development work is specialized .
This sidelines a lot of talent and helps exacerbate the software developer labor shortage employers are always complaining about .
It also lowers wages for developers since they 'd have more trouble finding work if they left their job .
I think we need to severly limit what kind of restrictions companies can place on their employees ' future job prospects .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No-hire and non-compete agreements are pretty common in contracts especially when the development work is specialized.
This sidelines a lot of talent and helps exacerbate the software developer labor shortage employers are always complaining about.
It also lowers wages for developers since they'd have more trouble finding work if they left their job.
I think we need to severly limit what kind of restrictions companies can place on their employees' future job prospects.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905992</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264527420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd imagine anyone who expects more than fifty grand in the door is more confident than her or she should be. It's hard to expect over eighty out of law school nowadays.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd imagine anyone who expects more than fifty grand in the door is more confident than her or she should be .
It 's hard to expect over eighty out of law school nowadays .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd imagine anyone who expects more than fifty grand in the door is more confident than her or she should be.
It's hard to expect over eighty out of law school nowadays.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903790</id>
	<title>rewards first, luchre later</title>
	<author>cmsjr</author>
	<datestamp>1264519380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you want programming to be a lucrative career, you have to think of it as a rewarding career first. A lowish starting salary in a company where you can learn the trade is going to serve you better in the long than a high starting salary with an outfit with no ability or interest for assisting your technical development. To para-borrow, if you're smart and get things done you can get yourself a good salary.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you want programming to be a lucrative career , you have to think of it as a rewarding career first .
A lowish starting salary in a company where you can learn the trade is going to serve you better in the long than a high starting salary with an outfit with no ability or interest for assisting your technical development .
To para-borrow , if you 're smart and get things done you can get yourself a good salary .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you want programming to be a lucrative career, you have to think of it as a rewarding career first.
A lowish starting salary in a company where you can learn the trade is going to serve you better in the long than a high starting salary with an outfit with no ability or interest for assisting your technical development.
To para-borrow, if you're smart and get things done you can get yourself a good salary.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904488</id>
	<title>Just like manfuacturing jobs</title>
	<author>plague911</author>
	<datestamp>1264521900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Earlier this century building cars was a high tech job. Many thousands of people built their life around working a job that they believed that they were uniquely qualified to do, a job they believed was valued. They were wrong. Now those people and communities are failing because they were not special and they were replaced. The same will happen to you if you base your life on working with computer science. The only difference is that its a little easier to move a development team across world. People are a little lighter than a mile long assembly line.... Outsources has already begone it ill ramp up soon enough. My guess we've got 20 years before they completely gut U.S/western world develpment... A little time but not a load... Don't get left behind when the ship breaks in half....</htmltext>
<tokenext>Earlier this century building cars was a high tech job .
Many thousands of people built their life around working a job that they believed that they were uniquely qualified to do , a job they believed was valued .
They were wrong .
Now those people and communities are failing because they were not special and they were replaced .
The same will happen to you if you base your life on working with computer science .
The only difference is that its a little easier to move a development team across world .
People are a little lighter than a mile long assembly line.... Outsources has already begone it ill ramp up soon enough .
My guess we 've got 20 years before they completely gut U.S/western world develpment... A little time but not a load... Do n't get left behind when the ship breaks in half... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Earlier this century building cars was a high tech job.
Many thousands of people built their life around working a job that they believed that they were uniquely qualified to do, a job they believed was valued.
They were wrong.
Now those people and communities are failing because they were not special and they were replaced.
The same will happen to you if you base your life on working with computer science.
The only difference is that its a little easier to move a development team across world.
People are a little lighter than a mile long assembly line.... Outsources has already begone it ill ramp up soon enough.
My guess we've got 20 years before they completely gut U.S/western world develpment... A little time but not a load... Don't get left behind when the ship breaks in half....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909914</id>
	<title>Your Attitude X Velocity Determines Your Altitude</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264500480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Good afternoon,</p><p>I think that specialization in a couple of focused areas (depth of knowledge / tools), breadth (experience and multiple different project types) and looking further than 'pure programming' are the best ways to increase your income and job satisfaction.</p><p>I found it interesting the number of people who happened to be in Cincinnati: I am too. I make more than $100K / year but not in programming.  How? Ironically by running offshore test teams in India.  Employers are starting to learn that offshoring works best when you have experienced leads doing the planning and verification activities, attending meetings, looking ahead to remove blocks and generally keeping test velocity high.  Deep experience in process, toolsets and industry (28 years) makes me valuable.  Staying current with all of that means you study a lot, take classes and are generally aware of upcoming trends. I believe the exact same things are true for dev not just test. Have a humble attitude; I always say I'll wash the dishes if needed (do not wait until asked).</p><p>I know when I want to hire a senior test automation person (I hate the term 'resources' - we are people) I know the price varies by city but that I need to budget around 110k base on the West coast and 85K or more in the mid-West.  Have you ever considered moving over to automated testing or performance testing (programming in tools like SILK / QTP / others)?  There is a shortage and it requires essentially the same skillset.</p><p>Being able to write coherent sentences, plan, dress well and give presentations easily adds 20K / year to a salary; do not overlook those skills if you want the money. Image is not everything but removal of a deliberate 'individualism' that blocks a positive perception adds to your salary.  Be a skateboarding 'punk' with green hair, body odour and foul language on your own time (these are all real-world examples over the last 5 years).  I'm not saying don't do things you like or be a conformist; simply allow business - they pay the bills - to relate to you. Make them think of you as a peer or able to give good advice.</p><p>Being able to admit when you are wrong, asking for advice from other teammates (and thanking them sincerly for the effort even when you do not choose to follow it) along with a myriad of other social and 'soft' skills also add to your 'likeableness' and make you more secure.  This is different from plain 'sucking up' in that you must truly be sincere.</p><p>Being able to help with estimating and planning development work is a crucial area that contributes to project success if done properly. One of the best PM's I know started out as a developer and transitioned. She makes more money (significantly more) and is much happier. She is extremely valuable because her estimates are accurate, she can call developers out when needed (I've watched her load an IDE and help a developer identify code issues) and she has the organizational skills to keep track of everything. She brings creditability and gravitas. People know her projects are hard but they step up and deliver.</p><p>I guess if I summed it up: actively work to make yourself valuable to an employer. Do not hold on to information - the more you share the more you are needed. Learn business processes not just development ones. Learn basic accounting / order entry / shipping / etc. terminology and methods.</p><p>P.S.  I only have a GED.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Good afternoon,I think that specialization in a couple of focused areas ( depth of knowledge / tools ) , breadth ( experience and multiple different project types ) and looking further than 'pure programming ' are the best ways to increase your income and job satisfaction.I found it interesting the number of people who happened to be in Cincinnati : I am too .
I make more than $ 100K / year but not in programming .
How ? Ironically by running offshore test teams in India .
Employers are starting to learn that offshoring works best when you have experienced leads doing the planning and verification activities , attending meetings , looking ahead to remove blocks and generally keeping test velocity high .
Deep experience in process , toolsets and industry ( 28 years ) makes me valuable .
Staying current with all of that means you study a lot , take classes and are generally aware of upcoming trends .
I believe the exact same things are true for dev not just test .
Have a humble attitude ; I always say I 'll wash the dishes if needed ( do not wait until asked ) .I know when I want to hire a senior test automation person ( I hate the term 'resources ' - we are people ) I know the price varies by city but that I need to budget around 110k base on the West coast and 85K or more in the mid-West .
Have you ever considered moving over to automated testing or performance testing ( programming in tools like SILK / QTP / others ) ?
There is a shortage and it requires essentially the same skillset.Being able to write coherent sentences , plan , dress well and give presentations easily adds 20K / year to a salary ; do not overlook those skills if you want the money .
Image is not everything but removal of a deliberate 'individualism ' that blocks a positive perception adds to your salary .
Be a skateboarding 'punk ' with green hair , body odour and foul language on your own time ( these are all real-world examples over the last 5 years ) .
I 'm not saying do n't do things you like or be a conformist ; simply allow business - they pay the bills - to relate to you .
Make them think of you as a peer or able to give good advice.Being able to admit when you are wrong , asking for advice from other teammates ( and thanking them sincerly for the effort even when you do not choose to follow it ) along with a myriad of other social and 'soft ' skills also add to your 'likeableness ' and make you more secure .
This is different from plain 'sucking up ' in that you must truly be sincere.Being able to help with estimating and planning development work is a crucial area that contributes to project success if done properly .
One of the best PM 's I know started out as a developer and transitioned .
She makes more money ( significantly more ) and is much happier .
She is extremely valuable because her estimates are accurate , she can call developers out when needed ( I 've watched her load an IDE and help a developer identify code issues ) and she has the organizational skills to keep track of everything .
She brings creditability and gravitas .
People know her projects are hard but they step up and deliver.I guess if I summed it up : actively work to make yourself valuable to an employer .
Do not hold on to information - the more you share the more you are needed .
Learn business processes not just development ones .
Learn basic accounting / order entry / shipping / etc .
terminology and methods.P.S .
I only have a GED .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good afternoon,I think that specialization in a couple of focused areas (depth of knowledge / tools), breadth (experience and multiple different project types) and looking further than 'pure programming' are the best ways to increase your income and job satisfaction.I found it interesting the number of people who happened to be in Cincinnati: I am too.
I make more than $100K / year but not in programming.
How? Ironically by running offshore test teams in India.
Employers are starting to learn that offshoring works best when you have experienced leads doing the planning and verification activities, attending meetings, looking ahead to remove blocks and generally keeping test velocity high.
Deep experience in process, toolsets and industry (28 years) makes me valuable.
Staying current with all of that means you study a lot, take classes and are generally aware of upcoming trends.
I believe the exact same things are true for dev not just test.
Have a humble attitude; I always say I'll wash the dishes if needed (do not wait until asked).I know when I want to hire a senior test automation person (I hate the term 'resources' - we are people) I know the price varies by city but that I need to budget around 110k base on the West coast and 85K or more in the mid-West.
Have you ever considered moving over to automated testing or performance testing (programming in tools like SILK / QTP / others)?
There is a shortage and it requires essentially the same skillset.Being able to write coherent sentences, plan, dress well and give presentations easily adds 20K / year to a salary; do not overlook those skills if you want the money.
Image is not everything but removal of a deliberate 'individualism' that blocks a positive perception adds to your salary.
Be a skateboarding 'punk' with green hair, body odour and foul language on your own time (these are all real-world examples over the last 5 years).
I'm not saying don't do things you like or be a conformist; simply allow business - they pay the bills - to relate to you.
Make them think of you as a peer or able to give good advice.Being able to admit when you are wrong, asking for advice from other teammates (and thanking them sincerly for the effort even when you do not choose to follow it) along with a myriad of other social and 'soft' skills also add to your 'likeableness' and make you more secure.
This is different from plain 'sucking up' in that you must truly be sincere.Being able to help with estimating and planning development work is a crucial area that contributes to project success if done properly.
One of the best PM's I know started out as a developer and transitioned.
She makes more money (significantly more) and is much happier.
She is extremely valuable because her estimates are accurate, she can call developers out when needed (I've watched her load an IDE and help a developer identify code issues) and she has the organizational skills to keep track of everything.
She brings creditability and gravitas.
People know her projects are hard but they step up and deliver.I guess if I summed it up: actively work to make yourself valuable to an employer.
Do not hold on to information - the more you share the more you are needed.
Learn business processes not just development ones.
Learn basic accounting / order entry / shipping / etc.
terminology and methods.P.S.
I only have a GED.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904306</id>
	<title>In Defense of Statistics</title>
	<author>btcoal</author>
	<datestamp>1264521300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>The only thing worse than a statistic is an anecdote. The author has his personal experience- fine. But my personal experience directly contradicts his. And the only statistics on the subject (from NACE and BLS) give a fairly Normal distribution of salaries between 57,000 and 151,000

(http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos304.htm)
Median annual wages of computer and information scientists were $97,970 in May 2008. The middle 50 percent earned between $75,340 and $124,370. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $57,480, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $151,250. Median annual wages of computer and information scientists employed in computer systems design and related services in May 2008 were $99,900.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The only thing worse than a statistic is an anecdote .
The author has his personal experience- fine .
But my personal experience directly contradicts his .
And the only statistics on the subject ( from NACE and BLS ) give a fairly Normal distribution of salaries between 57,000 and 151,000 ( http : //www.bls.gov/oco/ocos304.htm ) Median annual wages of computer and information scientists were $ 97,970 in May 2008 .
The middle 50 percent earned between $ 75,340 and $ 124,370 .
The lowest 10 percent earned less than $ 57,480 , and the highest 10 percent earned more than $ 151,250 .
Median annual wages of computer and information scientists employed in computer systems design and related services in May 2008 were $ 99,900 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only thing worse than a statistic is an anecdote.
The author has his personal experience- fine.
But my personal experience directly contradicts his.
And the only statistics on the subject (from NACE and BLS) give a fairly Normal distribution of salaries between 57,000 and 151,000

(http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos304.htm)
Median annual wages of computer and information scientists were $97,970 in May 2008.
The middle 50 percent earned between $75,340 and $124,370.
The lowest 10 percent earned less than $57,480, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $151,250.
Median annual wages of computer and information scientists employed in computer systems design and related services in May 2008 were $99,900.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30917902</id>
	<title>Re:Salary</title>
	<author>Jimmy King</author>
	<datestamp>1264610100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As a primarily Perl developer myself (I do Java, C#, and even a bit of C and C++ on my own for everything from web apps to Android apps to small games), I've seen the demand to vary quite a bit depending on region and the pay to be all over the place even within the same city.  I'm not sure I ever see much Perl within the US.  My co-workers in London tell me that while it's not the biggest Perl job market over there, you can reasonably make a living at it rather than being the struggle it is here.<br><br>I've worked my way up at the same small company from an entry level developer with no degree and just a few months of on the job experience combined in Tcl spread out over a couple of years (and a good bit of hobby C and Perl) at $42k/yr to being the architect/designer for new features on our core platform (integrations with other companies' platforms, etc) and for new applications from the ground up at around $70k/yr and probably a good bit more very soon.<br><br>I rarely see more than 2 or 3 Perl related jobs in the metro area at a time and frequently only 1 of them is a true Perl development job while the others just may include the occasional Perl.  I've interviewed for jobs (and been offered) senior level Perl developer jobs as low as $45k/yr and as high as the $70k I'm getting now.  Of course, in comparison, I don't think I know any<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.Net guys getting less than $60k/yr and most of the really good ones that I know are pulling in $90k-$120k, so even the upper range of Perl dev pay here seems relatively low in comparison.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As a primarily Perl developer myself ( I do Java , C # , and even a bit of C and C + + on my own for everything from web apps to Android apps to small games ) , I 've seen the demand to vary quite a bit depending on region and the pay to be all over the place even within the same city .
I 'm not sure I ever see much Perl within the US .
My co-workers in London tell me that while it 's not the biggest Perl job market over there , you can reasonably make a living at it rather than being the struggle it is here.I 've worked my way up at the same small company from an entry level developer with no degree and just a few months of on the job experience combined in Tcl spread out over a couple of years ( and a good bit of hobby C and Perl ) at $ 42k/yr to being the architect/designer for new features on our core platform ( integrations with other companies ' platforms , etc ) and for new applications from the ground up at around $ 70k/yr and probably a good bit more very soon.I rarely see more than 2 or 3 Perl related jobs in the metro area at a time and frequently only 1 of them is a true Perl development job while the others just may include the occasional Perl .
I 've interviewed for jobs ( and been offered ) senior level Perl developer jobs as low as $ 45k/yr and as high as the $ 70k I 'm getting now .
Of course , in comparison , I do n't think I know any .Net guys getting less than $ 60k/yr and most of the really good ones that I know are pulling in $ 90k- $ 120k , so even the upper range of Perl dev pay here seems relatively low in comparison .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a primarily Perl developer myself (I do Java, C#, and even a bit of C and C++ on my own for everything from web apps to Android apps to small games), I've seen the demand to vary quite a bit depending on region and the pay to be all over the place even within the same city.
I'm not sure I ever see much Perl within the US.
My co-workers in London tell me that while it's not the biggest Perl job market over there, you can reasonably make a living at it rather than being the struggle it is here.I've worked my way up at the same small company from an entry level developer with no degree and just a few months of on the job experience combined in Tcl spread out over a couple of years (and a good bit of hobby C and Perl) at $42k/yr to being the architect/designer for new features on our core platform (integrations with other companies' platforms, etc) and for new applications from the ground up at around $70k/yr and probably a good bit more very soon.I rarely see more than 2 or 3 Perl related jobs in the metro area at a time and frequently only 1 of them is a true Perl development job while the others just may include the occasional Perl.
I've interviewed for jobs (and been offered) senior level Perl developer jobs as low as $45k/yr and as high as the $70k I'm getting now.
Of course, in comparison, I don't think I know any .Net guys getting less than $60k/yr and most of the really good ones that I know are pulling in $90k-$120k, so even the upper range of Perl dev pay here seems relatively low in comparison.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906946</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264531200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>C++ developer with a knack for DSP here, and I make... well... enough to feel uncomfortable mentioning it.</p><p>Asking whether programming is a lucrative profession is really a nonsensical question. Is using a keyboard a lucrative profession? Well, a Target inventory clerk and Steve Ballmer both use a keyboard during the day. Obviously, use of the keyboard is not what makes the money. Similarly, the programming is not what makes the money. It's the engineering experience, quality of work, and it also depends on how successful the company itself is (duh). Work for a shit company, get a shit salary.</p><p>Car analogy time. Knowing how to program is like knowing how cars work. Seventy years ago, that made you a genius. These days, it makes you well-suited to blue collar employment. There are auto technicians who make a lot of money. This is because they have special skillsets and, to put it bluntly, more intelligence, more creativity, and a better ability to relate to customers. Kids planning to enter the workforce need to understand that programming doesn't require an awful lot of brains. Just because you can program doesn't mean you're smart, or deserve a wad of cash.</p><p>Now, if you really ARE smart, then you ought to be able to make a bit more. It also makes a huge difference that you be able to relate socially to colleagues and customers. I've seen companies try to hire customer-facing development positions (sounds weird, but not uncommon in small shops which cater to other engineering fields), and it takes a year just to find somebody, and that person gets paid EXTREMELY well. Sitting down in your basement getting all ideological about this or that will get you nowhere. Come into the light and get some people skills.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>C + + developer with a knack for DSP here , and I make... well... enough to feel uncomfortable mentioning it.Asking whether programming is a lucrative profession is really a nonsensical question .
Is using a keyboard a lucrative profession ?
Well , a Target inventory clerk and Steve Ballmer both use a keyboard during the day .
Obviously , use of the keyboard is not what makes the money .
Similarly , the programming is not what makes the money .
It 's the engineering experience , quality of work , and it also depends on how successful the company itself is ( duh ) .
Work for a shit company , get a shit salary.Car analogy time .
Knowing how to program is like knowing how cars work .
Seventy years ago , that made you a genius .
These days , it makes you well-suited to blue collar employment .
There are auto technicians who make a lot of money .
This is because they have special skillsets and , to put it bluntly , more intelligence , more creativity , and a better ability to relate to customers .
Kids planning to enter the workforce need to understand that programming does n't require an awful lot of brains .
Just because you can program does n't mean you 're smart , or deserve a wad of cash.Now , if you really ARE smart , then you ought to be able to make a bit more .
It also makes a huge difference that you be able to relate socially to colleagues and customers .
I 've seen companies try to hire customer-facing development positions ( sounds weird , but not uncommon in small shops which cater to other engineering fields ) , and it takes a year just to find somebody , and that person gets paid EXTREMELY well .
Sitting down in your basement getting all ideological about this or that will get you nowhere .
Come into the light and get some people skills .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>C++ developer with a knack for DSP here, and I make... well... enough to feel uncomfortable mentioning it.Asking whether programming is a lucrative profession is really a nonsensical question.
Is using a keyboard a lucrative profession?
Well, a Target inventory clerk and Steve Ballmer both use a keyboard during the day.
Obviously, use of the keyboard is not what makes the money.
Similarly, the programming is not what makes the money.
It's the engineering experience, quality of work, and it also depends on how successful the company itself is (duh).
Work for a shit company, get a shit salary.Car analogy time.
Knowing how to program is like knowing how cars work.
Seventy years ago, that made you a genius.
These days, it makes you well-suited to blue collar employment.
There are auto technicians who make a lot of money.
This is because they have special skillsets and, to put it bluntly, more intelligence, more creativity, and a better ability to relate to customers.
Kids planning to enter the workforce need to understand that programming doesn't require an awful lot of brains.
Just because you can program doesn't mean you're smart, or deserve a wad of cash.Now, if you really ARE smart, then you ought to be able to make a bit more.
It also makes a huge difference that you be able to relate socially to colleagues and customers.
I've seen companies try to hire customer-facing development positions (sounds weird, but not uncommon in small shops which cater to other engineering fields), and it takes a year just to find somebody, and that person gets paid EXTREMELY well.
Sitting down in your basement getting all ideological about this or that will get you nowhere.
Come into the light and get some people skills.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905896</id>
	<title>Is it lucrative?  Heck no, not nowadays.</title>
	<author>hillbluffer</author>
	<datestamp>1264527060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The boss "knows" he can replace you cheaply and easily with one ad on Craigslist.
Or outsource to Bangalore and REALLY save money.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The boss " knows " he can replace you cheaply and easily with one ad on Craigslist .
Or outsource to Bangalore and REALLY save money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The boss "knows" he can replace you cheaply and easily with one ad on Craigslist.
Or outsource to Bangalore and REALLY save money.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30911382</id>
	<title>Re:Salary</title>
	<author>Americano</author>
	<datestamp>1264507620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I live in the Boston area, and back in 2001, I had several interviews in the San Diego area;  Each time I flew out for an interview, the companies (3 of them) offered to (and did) reimburse me after I traveled for airfare, rental car &amp; hotel stay.  I had to make the arrangements myself, but all three of the companies cut me a check afterwards to reimburse me.</p><p>This is not an uncommon thing in my experience, and I'd be pretty hesitant about a company that would tell me, "Sure we'll consider you, just spend $1000 or so on travel out of your own pocket so we can see if we like you."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I live in the Boston area , and back in 2001 , I had several interviews in the San Diego area ; Each time I flew out for an interview , the companies ( 3 of them ) offered to ( and did ) reimburse me after I traveled for airfare , rental car &amp; hotel stay .
I had to make the arrangements myself , but all three of the companies cut me a check afterwards to reimburse me.This is not an uncommon thing in my experience , and I 'd be pretty hesitant about a company that would tell me , " Sure we 'll consider you , just spend $ 1000 or so on travel out of your own pocket so we can see if we like you .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live in the Boston area, and back in 2001, I had several interviews in the San Diego area;  Each time I flew out for an interview, the companies (3 of them) offered to (and did) reimburse me after I traveled for airfare, rental car &amp; hotel stay.
I had to make the arrangements myself, but all three of the companies cut me a check afterwards to reimburse me.This is not an uncommon thing in my experience, and I'd be pretty hesitant about a company that would tell me, "Sure we'll consider you, just spend $1000 or so on travel out of your own pocket so we can see if we like you.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909024</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904420</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264521600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>iint mayne(iint argsee, char ++ argvee)<br>{<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; preentf " (hello world" );<br>}</p><p>And this is why programmers and managers might have different ideas about the importance of spelling<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>iint mayne ( iint argsee , char + + argvee ) {     preentf " ( hello world " ) ; } And this is why programmers and managers might have different ideas about the importance of spelling : - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>iint mayne(iint argsee, char ++ argvee){
    preentf " (hello world" );}And this is why programmers and managers might have different ideas about the importance of spelling :-)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906084</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>computational super</author>
	<datestamp>1264527780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>Get your EE or ME degree and do controls.</i>
<p>Well... is that your advice for a teenager, just looking at his college career choices right now, in 2010?  Because that's <i>exactly</i> the sort of (good) advice they were giving kids back in '99, except it was "get you CS degree and do programming".  It made sense 10 years ago, but that was 10 years ago.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Get your EE or ME degree and do controls .
Well... is that your advice for a teenager , just looking at his college career choices right now , in 2010 ?
Because that 's exactly the sort of ( good ) advice they were giving kids back in '99 , except it was " get you CS degree and do programming " .
It made sense 10 years ago , but that was 10 years ago .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get your EE or ME degree and do controls.
Well... is that your advice for a teenager, just looking at his college career choices right now, in 2010?
Because that's exactly the sort of (good) advice they were giving kids back in '99, except it was "get you CS degree and do programming".
It made sense 10 years ago, but that was 10 years ago.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904288</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907280</id>
	<title>Re:you keep dry and sit around all day</title>
	<author>jeffstar</author>
	<datestamp>1264532520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>and there is no danger: no heights, no big things to crush you, no high voltage things to fry you, no moving things to shred you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and there is no danger : no heights , no big things to crush you , no high voltage things to fry you , no moving things to shred you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and there is no danger: no heights, no big things to crush you, no high voltage things to fry you, no moving things to shred you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903742</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30910568</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1264503120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> <b>The</b> better be good with vi, and not have to rely on a GUI to configure a linux box.</p></div><p>And if <b>they</b> were using a real text editor instead of vi, <b>they</b> might not have made this mistake...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The better be good with vi , and not have to rely on a GUI to configure a linux box.And if they were using a real text editor instead of vi , they might not have made this mistake.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> The better be good with vi, and not have to rely on a GUI to configure a linux box.And if they were using a real text editor instead of vi, they might not have made this mistake...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903850</id>
	<title>My pay numbers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264519620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I tell new programmers to take the best job they can get. Then tough it out for 3 years. Change jobs and get a large pay raise. Tough that out 2-3 yrs and then pick where you want to live for a while, find a good job there as a senior programmer and settle down.

My programmer/architect salary history:
* 2004 22k (Yes out of college I made less than a teacher -.- I like teaching, I maybe should have gone that route.)
* 2005 32k
* 2006 37k
* 2007 44k
* 2008 60k
* 2009 75k
* 2010 75k (stagnant, employer using economy as an excuse to not give raise and is just daring me to find a new job)

My specialization is<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.Net Memory and Processing performance. It is amazing how many people bought into the Microsoft spiel of<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.Net handling memory automatically. As an example, I gave a 30\% performance boost to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.Net 1.1 framework used by employer for programs and dropped it's memory footprint 10-20\% while closing up memory leaks.

Sorry for no breaks in comment, slashdot editor not obeying line breaks and spacing I am specifying. o.O</htmltext>
<tokenext>I tell new programmers to take the best job they can get .
Then tough it out for 3 years .
Change jobs and get a large pay raise .
Tough that out 2-3 yrs and then pick where you want to live for a while , find a good job there as a senior programmer and settle down .
My programmer/architect salary history : * 2004 22k ( Yes out of college I made less than a teacher -.- I like teaching , I maybe should have gone that route .
) * 2005 32k * 2006 37k * 2007 44k * 2008 60k * 2009 75k * 2010 75k ( stagnant , employer using economy as an excuse to not give raise and is just daring me to find a new job ) My specialization is .Net Memory and Processing performance .
It is amazing how many people bought into the Microsoft spiel of .Net handling memory automatically .
As an example , I gave a 30 \ % performance boost to .Net 1.1 framework used by employer for programs and dropped it 's memory footprint 10-20 \ % while closing up memory leaks .
Sorry for no breaks in comment , slashdot editor not obeying line breaks and spacing I am specifying .
o.O</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I tell new programmers to take the best job they can get.
Then tough it out for 3 years.
Change jobs and get a large pay raise.
Tough that out 2-3 yrs and then pick where you want to live for a while, find a good job there as a senior programmer and settle down.
My programmer/architect salary history:
* 2004 22k (Yes out of college I made less than a teacher -.- I like teaching, I maybe should have gone that route.
)
* 2005 32k
* 2006 37k
* 2007 44k
* 2008 60k
* 2009 75k
* 2010 75k (stagnant, employer using economy as an excuse to not give raise and is just daring me to find a new job)

My specialization is .Net Memory and Processing performance.
It is amazing how many people bought into the Microsoft spiel of .Net handling memory automatically.
As an example, I gave a 30\% performance boost to .Net 1.1 framework used by employer for programs and dropped it's memory footprint 10-20\% while closing up memory leaks.
Sorry for no breaks in comment, slashdot editor not obeying line breaks and spacing I am specifying.
o.O</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904312</id>
	<title>Just wondering</title>
	<author>Mr\_Silver</author>
	<datestamp>1264521300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Shrinking salaries, H1B's and the outsourcing of work to India and other countries.</p><p>I can't help wondering if there is a forum on the internet populated by music industry professionals who are currently posting messages mocking our old business model and the need to change.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Shrinking salaries , H1B 's and the outsourcing of work to India and other countries.I ca n't help wondering if there is a forum on the internet populated by music industry professionals who are currently posting messages mocking our old business model and the need to change .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Shrinking salaries, H1B's and the outsourcing of work to India and other countries.I can't help wondering if there is a forum on the internet populated by music industry professionals who are currently posting messages mocking our old business model and the need to change.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903510</id>
	<title>really, 60,000 starting?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264518240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>To quote Wayne Campbell:
<br>
It might happen. Yeah, and monkeys might fly out of my butt.</div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>To quote Wayne Campbell : It might happen .
Yeah , and monkeys might fly out of my butt .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To quote Wayne Campbell:

It might happen.
Yeah, and monkeys might fly out of my butt.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904088</id>
	<title>Supply and demand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264520520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Programming in general is not a hard thing to do, there is no barrier to entry and anyone with a computer and the desire can get the "tools of the trade" and start doing it at home sitting on the couch.<br>Now programming efficiently, working on large projects with others takes experience and some creativity and are worth a lot more but those are not characteristics that employers automatically associate with someone fresh out of college with a degree.  Times have changed, the days of Howard Warshaw programming Yars revenge by himself are looooong gone and programming in general has less geographical barriers than most other positions.</p><p>Sorry to bust everyone's bubble but that IS the reality.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Programming in general is not a hard thing to do , there is no barrier to entry and anyone with a computer and the desire can get the " tools of the trade " and start doing it at home sitting on the couch.Now programming efficiently , working on large projects with others takes experience and some creativity and are worth a lot more but those are not characteristics that employers automatically associate with someone fresh out of college with a degree .
Times have changed , the days of Howard Warshaw programming Yars revenge by himself are looooong gone and programming in general has less geographical barriers than most other positions.Sorry to bust everyone 's bubble but that IS the reality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Programming in general is not a hard thing to do, there is no barrier to entry and anyone with a computer and the desire can get the "tools of the trade" and start doing it at home sitting on the couch.Now programming efficiently, working on large projects with others takes experience and some creativity and are worth a lot more but those are not characteristics that employers automatically associate with someone fresh out of college with a degree.
Times have changed, the days of Howard Warshaw programming Yars revenge by himself are looooong gone and programming in general has less geographical barriers than most other positions.Sorry to bust everyone's bubble but that IS the reality.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904730</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>mwvdlee</author>
	<datestamp>1264522680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Only a tool thinks tools are important.</p><p>If they can develop better without vi and using a GUI, why shouldn't they? Similarly VHDL and C. Both have their uses but neither can do everything. Use whatever tool works best and don't get all anal about having to use a specific tool for everything.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Only a tool thinks tools are important.If they can develop better without vi and using a GUI , why should n't they ?
Similarly VHDL and C. Both have their uses but neither can do everything .
Use whatever tool works best and do n't get all anal about having to use a specific tool for everything .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Only a tool thinks tools are important.If they can develop better without vi and using a GUI, why shouldn't they?
Similarly VHDL and C. Both have their uses but neither can do everything.
Use whatever tool works best and don't get all anal about having to use a specific tool for everything.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906310</id>
	<title>Re:Really?</title>
	<author>LongearedBat</author>
	<datestamp>1264528620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I don't think it's actually common for hired programmers to buy their own tools.</p></div><p>These are my experiences:<br>
<br>When full time employed to work in an office, I use office equipment.<br>
When consulting at client site, I use client equipment (Australia) or my employers' laptop and tools at client site (Sweden).<br>
When freelancing or contracting, I use my own laptop.  It is then the clients' responsibilty to ensure I have the necessary development tools.<br>
<br>
So, yes, depending on the situation.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't think it 's actually common for hired programmers to buy their own tools.These are my experiences : When full time employed to work in an office , I use office equipment .
When consulting at client site , I use client equipment ( Australia ) or my employers ' laptop and tools at client site ( Sweden ) .
When freelancing or contracting , I use my own laptop .
It is then the clients ' responsibilty to ensure I have the necessary development tools .
So , yes , depending on the situation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't think it's actually common for hired programmers to buy their own tools.These are my experiences:
When full time employed to work in an office, I use office equipment.
When consulting at client site, I use client equipment (Australia) or my employers' laptop and tools at client site (Sweden).
When freelancing or contracting, I use my own laptop.
It is then the clients' responsibilty to ensure I have the necessary development tools.
So, yes, depending on the situation.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908334</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>elnyka</author>
	<datestamp>1264536720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Not that I disagree entirely that it may be more difficult to manage someone in India, and I've certainly heard horror stories, but come on.  These could all be applied to just about any remote contractor who isn't worth their salt.  I have worked with/currently work with plenty of Indians who really knew/know their stuff.</p></div><p>I gotta side with cerberuss on this one. Yes, c'mon all of those can be applied to any remote consultant that is not worth his salt. However, from my experience working with remote teams (India, Brazil, within the US), there is something specific about the consulting industry in India that can really bit you in  the ass harder than in other cases.</p><p>

Now, just like you, I've worked with plenty of Indians who really knew their stuff. In fact, most of the remote projects I've worked that involved teams in India have had a high success ratio. But the few that have failed have done so far more miserably and catastrophically than with other teams on other countries.</p><p>

This has given me a glimpse to a darker side of Indian offshore consulting, which I've actually talked a lot with several of my Indian colleagues who also agree on this: you can end up with a consulting firm that sells the idea of development guided by a  a top-notch architect, and you swallow the tripe. And then the top-notch architect designs a system which looks solid, then he moves to another project. Then the consulting firm gets a whole bunch of sophomore kids from college find ways to replicate GOTO statements in Java to do the implementation. My first encounter with such practices from such a consulting team was when I was working together with an Indian colleague of mine (a really good software developer) in trying to make sense out of the mess. When we looked at the code and the original design, all we could do was say "WTF?".</p><p>

That's an experience I've had to repeat several times. It's a reality, and it has nothing to do with dissing people from X or Y country. It's an unfortunate reality that cannot be denied or politically correctly sugar coat it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Not that I disagree entirely that it may be more difficult to manage someone in India , and I 've certainly heard horror stories , but come on .
These could all be applied to just about any remote contractor who is n't worth their salt .
I have worked with/currently work with plenty of Indians who really knew/know their stuff.I got ta side with cerberuss on this one .
Yes , c'mon all of those can be applied to any remote consultant that is not worth his salt .
However , from my experience working with remote teams ( India , Brazil , within the US ) , there is something specific about the consulting industry in India that can really bit you in the ass harder than in other cases .
Now , just like you , I 've worked with plenty of Indians who really knew their stuff .
In fact , most of the remote projects I 've worked that involved teams in India have had a high success ratio .
But the few that have failed have done so far more miserably and catastrophically than with other teams on other countries .
This has given me a glimpse to a darker side of Indian offshore consulting , which I 've actually talked a lot with several of my Indian colleagues who also agree on this : you can end up with a consulting firm that sells the idea of development guided by a a top-notch architect , and you swallow the tripe .
And then the top-notch architect designs a system which looks solid , then he moves to another project .
Then the consulting firm gets a whole bunch of sophomore kids from college find ways to replicate GOTO statements in Java to do the implementation .
My first encounter with such practices from such a consulting team was when I was working together with an Indian colleague of mine ( a really good software developer ) in trying to make sense out of the mess .
When we looked at the code and the original design , all we could do was say " WTF ? " .
That 's an experience I 've had to repeat several times .
It 's a reality , and it has nothing to do with dissing people from X or Y country .
It 's an unfortunate reality that can not be denied or politically correctly sugar coat it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not that I disagree entirely that it may be more difficult to manage someone in India, and I've certainly heard horror stories, but come on.
These could all be applied to just about any remote contractor who isn't worth their salt.
I have worked with/currently work with plenty of Indians who really knew/know their stuff.I gotta side with cerberuss on this one.
Yes, c'mon all of those can be applied to any remote consultant that is not worth his salt.
However, from my experience working with remote teams (India, Brazil, within the US), there is something specific about the consulting industry in India that can really bit you in  the ass harder than in other cases.
Now, just like you, I've worked with plenty of Indians who really knew their stuff.
In fact, most of the remote projects I've worked that involved teams in India have had a high success ratio.
But the few that have failed have done so far more miserably and catastrophically than with other teams on other countries.
This has given me a glimpse to a darker side of Indian offshore consulting, which I've actually talked a lot with several of my Indian colleagues who also agree on this: you can end up with a consulting firm that sells the idea of development guided by a  a top-notch architect, and you swallow the tripe.
And then the top-notch architect designs a system which looks solid, then he moves to another project.
Then the consulting firm gets a whole bunch of sophomore kids from college find ways to replicate GOTO statements in Java to do the implementation.
My first encounter with such practices from such a consulting team was when I was working together with an Indian colleague of mine (a really good software developer) in trying to make sense out of the mess.
When we looked at the code and the original design, all we could do was say "WTF?".
That's an experience I've had to repeat several times.
It's a reality, and it has nothing to do with dissing people from X or Y country.
It's an unfortunate reality that cannot be denied or politically correctly sugar coat it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906964</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909302</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264497960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I had a co-op student once, who obviously had no affinity for programming . . . or, more to the point, no affinity for computers in general. (This was back in the 80's, before PCs were as pervasive as now).</p><p>I really couldn't understand why he was torturing himself with a degree program, which he didn't like, so I asked him why he chose computer science.  The answer:</p><p>"I heard that I will be able to make a lot of money in this field."</p><p>Money is not the reason to choose computer programming as a career.</p><p>Or any other career for that matter . . . do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money . . . ?"</p></div><p>Respect.<br>There is no point to do a job that you do not like. I.M.O</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I had a co-op student once , who obviously had no affinity for programming .
. .
or , more to the point , no affinity for computers in general .
( This was back in the 80 's , before PCs were as pervasive as now ) .I really could n't understand why he was torturing himself with a degree program , which he did n't like , so I asked him why he chose computer science .
The answer : " I heard that I will be able to make a lot of money in this field .
" Money is not the reason to choose computer programming as a career.Or any other career for that matter .
. .
do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon , who is , " in it for the money .
. .
? " Respect.There is no point to do a job that you do not like .
I.M.O</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had a co-op student once, who obviously had no affinity for programming .
. .
or, more to the point, no affinity for computers in general.
(This was back in the 80's, before PCs were as pervasive as now).I really couldn't understand why he was torturing himself with a degree program, which he didn't like, so I asked him why he chose computer science.
The answer:"I heard that I will be able to make a lot of money in this field.
"Money is not the reason to choose computer programming as a career.Or any other career for that matter .
. .
do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money .
. .
?"Respect.There is no point to do a job that you do not like.
I.M.O
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903768</id>
	<title>Government Survey Data</title>
	<author>adam1101</author>
	<datestamp>1264519320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You can find lots of U.S. survey data on the Bureau of Labor Statistics website, by occupation here:
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oes/2008/may/oes\_nat.htm#b15-0000" title="bls.gov">http://www.bls.gov/oes/2008/may/oes\_nat.htm#b15-0000</a> [bls.gov]
and by region here:
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/bls/blswage.htm" title="bls.gov">http://www.bls.gov/bls/blswage.htm</a> [bls.gov]
<br>
I can't find starting salaries though.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You can find lots of U.S. survey data on the Bureau of Labor Statistics website , by occupation here : http : //www.bls.gov/oes/2008/may/oes \ _nat.htm # b15-0000 [ bls.gov ] and by region here : http : //www.bls.gov/bls/blswage.htm [ bls.gov ] I ca n't find starting salaries though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can find lots of U.S. survey data on the Bureau of Labor Statistics website, by occupation here:
http://www.bls.gov/oes/2008/may/oes\_nat.htm#b15-0000 [bls.gov]
and by region here:
http://www.bls.gov/bls/blswage.htm [bls.gov]

I can't find starting salaries though.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903544</id>
	<title>Wrong Millenium, Wrong Century, Wrong Decade</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264518420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A career as a computer programming is far from lucrative for those yet to begin their career unless seeking employment with the federal government where pay scales are much higher than the private sector. The propaganda from the politicians, academics, and business leaders tells everyone only imported "talent" from India can possibly address the claimed labor shortage. Some elites go so far as to say students and graduates from Western nations are too stupid to be able to compete with Indians. My advice... keep computer programming as a hobby and an add-on skill to a better career field.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A career as a computer programming is far from lucrative for those yet to begin their career unless seeking employment with the federal government where pay scales are much higher than the private sector .
The propaganda from the politicians , academics , and business leaders tells everyone only imported " talent " from India can possibly address the claimed labor shortage .
Some elites go so far as to say students and graduates from Western nations are too stupid to be able to compete with Indians .
My advice... keep computer programming as a hobby and an add-on skill to a better career field .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A career as a computer programming is far from lucrative for those yet to begin their career unless seeking employment with the federal government where pay scales are much higher than the private sector.
The propaganda from the politicians, academics, and business leaders tells everyone only imported "talent" from India can possibly address the claimed labor shortage.
Some elites go so far as to say students and graduates from Western nations are too stupid to be able to compete with Indians.
My advice... keep computer programming as a hobby and an add-on skill to a better career field.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907708</id>
	<title>Re:no-hire and non-compete agreements</title>
	<author>difster</author>
	<datestamp>1264534440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First you say that such agreement sideline a lot of talent, then you say we need to limit what kind of restrictions companies can place on their employers.</p><p>Seems to me that potential employees are already doing that through a little thing called freedom of association. I really, really do not want the government dictating the terms of my contract/employment/enslavement or whatever agreement I happen to enter in to. The government is there to adjudicate a dispute in the contract should one arise, not set the terms for it to begin with.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First you say that such agreement sideline a lot of talent , then you say we need to limit what kind of restrictions companies can place on their employers.Seems to me that potential employees are already doing that through a little thing called freedom of association .
I really , really do not want the government dictating the terms of my contract/employment/enslavement or whatever agreement I happen to enter in to .
The government is there to adjudicate a dispute in the contract should one arise , not set the terms for it to begin with .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First you say that such agreement sideline a lot of talent, then you say we need to limit what kind of restrictions companies can place on their employers.Seems to me that potential employees are already doing that through a little thing called freedom of association.
I really, really do not want the government dictating the terms of my contract/employment/enslavement or whatever agreement I happen to enter in to.
The government is there to adjudicate a dispute in the contract should one arise, not set the terms for it to begin with.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909662</id>
	<title>Re:Putting a dollar figure down is problematic</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1264499400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm surprised it took this long for someone to say it. I'm in the Defense contracting field and our software company chooses to be in Austin, TX instead of in unaffordable Washington D.C. My $70k-ish Texas salary would have to be six-figures to have the same quality of life I get here in Austin.  Of course, those salary disparities just get passed along to the government, so it basically comes down to more people where I work like Austin better than they would like living in Washington.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm surprised it took this long for someone to say it .
I 'm in the Defense contracting field and our software company chooses to be in Austin , TX instead of in unaffordable Washington D.C. My $ 70k-ish Texas salary would have to be six-figures to have the same quality of life I get here in Austin .
Of course , those salary disparities just get passed along to the government , so it basically comes down to more people where I work like Austin better than they would like living in Washington .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm surprised it took this long for someone to say it.
I'm in the Defense contracting field and our software company chooses to be in Austin, TX instead of in unaffordable Washington D.C. My $70k-ish Texas salary would have to be six-figures to have the same quality of life I get here in Austin.
Of course, those salary disparities just get passed along to the government, so it basically comes down to more people where I work like Austin better than they would like living in Washington.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903500</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909718</id>
	<title>I can verify quite a bit of this.</title>
	<author>Lally Singh</author>
	<datestamp>1264499640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm finishing my PhD now, while working.  I just got hired a year ago, and make about as much mentioned (+/-, if you want to count guaranteed bonuses, etc.).  Great benefits.  The software developer market, for people who actually know what they're doing (e.g. C++, not PHP), is *hot*.  Recruiters are calling everyone (even at work), and I'm going on my second recruiting trip next month.  Anyone who can remember any specifics from the last 3 years of their undergrad CS degree would be nice.  My employer hires non-CS and trains them how to program (for *months*, paid at full salary the entire time), if we can determine they're smart enough to learn.</p><p>The real issue is that most people calling themselves programmers can't even write a linked list or binary tree *TYPE*DECLARATION* without spending a half hour on google.  They don't get hired, because they're not very good.  But they're happy to complain that they don't need it in real life -- which is true, for the lower-paying jobs they'll get hired for.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm finishing my PhD now , while working .
I just got hired a year ago , and make about as much mentioned ( + /- , if you want to count guaranteed bonuses , etc. ) .
Great benefits .
The software developer market , for people who actually know what they 're doing ( e.g .
C + + , not PHP ) , is * hot * .
Recruiters are calling everyone ( even at work ) , and I 'm going on my second recruiting trip next month .
Anyone who can remember any specifics from the last 3 years of their undergrad CS degree would be nice .
My employer hires non-CS and trains them how to program ( for * months * , paid at full salary the entire time ) , if we can determine they 're smart enough to learn.The real issue is that most people calling themselves programmers ca n't even write a linked list or binary tree * TYPE * DECLARATION * without spending a half hour on google .
They do n't get hired , because they 're not very good .
But they 're happy to complain that they do n't need it in real life -- which is true , for the lower-paying jobs they 'll get hired for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm finishing my PhD now, while working.
I just got hired a year ago, and make about as much mentioned (+/-, if you want to count guaranteed bonuses, etc.).
Great benefits.
The software developer market, for people who actually know what they're doing (e.g.
C++, not PHP), is *hot*.
Recruiters are calling everyone (even at work), and I'm going on my second recruiting trip next month.
Anyone who can remember any specifics from the last 3 years of their undergrad CS degree would be nice.
My employer hires non-CS and trains them how to program (for *months*, paid at full salary the entire time), if we can determine they're smart enough to learn.The real issue is that most people calling themselves programmers can't even write a linked list or binary tree *TYPE*DECLARATION* without spending a half hour on google.
They don't get hired, because they're not very good.
But they're happy to complain that they don't need it in real life -- which is true, for the lower-paying jobs they'll get hired for.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908690</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>plague3106</author>
	<datestamp>1264538340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I do work remotely as well, on web apps, so I must give source..</p><p>At any rate, the differnce between John and Rajesh is that you can sue John in a US court for breach of contract.  Good luck suing Rajesh and getting any meaningful settlement.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do work remotely as well , on web apps , so I must give source..At any rate , the differnce between John and Rajesh is that you can sue John in a US court for breach of contract .
Good luck suing Rajesh and getting any meaningful settlement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I do work remotely as well, on web apps, so I must give source..At any rate, the differnce between John and Rajesh is that you can sue John in a US court for breach of contract.
Good luck suing Rajesh and getting any meaningful settlement.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906964</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30952172</id>
	<title>Re:Money isn't my primary interest</title>
	<author>Bengie</author>
	<datestamp>1264790880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How much extra is my job worth since it's low stress, fun, I get to learn new stuff, I can randomly take time off with little to no warning, got good benefits, pays above average to my local area, co-workers are very social. It's sub $50k, but hey, it pays the bills and would leave me with plenty of spending $$$ if my wife could find a job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How much extra is my job worth since it 's low stress , fun , I get to learn new stuff , I can randomly take time off with little to no warning , got good benefits , pays above average to my local area , co-workers are very social .
It 's sub $ 50k , but hey , it pays the bills and would leave me with plenty of spending $ $ $ if my wife could find a job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How much extra is my job worth since it's low stress, fun, I get to learn new stuff, I can randomly take time off with little to no warning, got good benefits, pays above average to my local area, co-workers are very social.
It's sub $50k, but hey, it pays the bills and would leave me with plenty of spending $$$ if my wife could find a job.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904102</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264520580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>What language is this in?</htmltext>
<tokenext>What language is this in ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What language is this in?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908698</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1264538340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You realize all it takes to get a PhD is to know the right people and to be someones bitch for a few years, right?  PhD's are basically career college students who couldn't actually get a job when they got out so they do everything they can to stay in.  Some get out, get a job and go back to do their PhD because they can't handle working in the real world.</p><p>Don't act like PhDs mean shit, I know a PhD student in ENGLISH with who doesn't know the difference between things like 'cause' and 'prevent'.</p><p>The idea that a PhD means something was lost, probably before I was born, now its just something you pay for by doing the research work for someone else and only getting partial credit (if you're lucky)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You realize all it takes to get a PhD is to know the right people and to be someones bitch for a few years , right ?
PhD 's are basically career college students who could n't actually get a job when they got out so they do everything they can to stay in .
Some get out , get a job and go back to do their PhD because they ca n't handle working in the real world.Do n't act like PhDs mean shit , I know a PhD student in ENGLISH with who does n't know the difference between things like 'cause ' and 'prevent'.The idea that a PhD means something was lost , probably before I was born , now its just something you pay for by doing the research work for someone else and only getting partial credit ( if you 're lucky )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You realize all it takes to get a PhD is to know the right people and to be someones bitch for a few years, right?
PhD's are basically career college students who couldn't actually get a job when they got out so they do everything they can to stay in.
Some get out, get a job and go back to do their PhD because they can't handle working in the real world.Don't act like PhDs mean shit, I know a PhD student in ENGLISH with who doesn't know the difference between things like 'cause' and 'prevent'.The idea that a PhD means something was lost, probably before I was born, now its just something you pay for by doing the research work for someone else and only getting partial credit (if you're lucky)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903762</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909390</id>
	<title>Re:Location, Location, Location</title>
	<author>danlip</author>
	<datestamp>1264498320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I currently work for a big bank as a Java programmer and make more than I did at any other company I've worked for.  I'm a contractor but still come out significantly ahead after I buy my own benefits.  All my other companies were start-ups and I was a FTE, so I don't have a great data set to compare, but for what it's worth I don't think banks are cheap.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I currently work for a big bank as a Java programmer and make more than I did at any other company I 've worked for .
I 'm a contractor but still come out significantly ahead after I buy my own benefits .
All my other companies were start-ups and I was a FTE , so I do n't have a great data set to compare , but for what it 's worth I do n't think banks are cheap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I currently work for a big bank as a Java programmer and make more than I did at any other company I've worked for.
I'm a contractor but still come out significantly ahead after I buy my own benefits.
All my other companies were start-ups and I was a FTE, so I don't have a great data set to compare, but for what it's worth I don't think banks are cheap.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903860</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30918298</id>
	<title>Re:We are becoming more disposable</title>
	<author>AthleteMusicianNerd</author>
	<datestamp>1264611480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A union also helped bring GM to bankruptcy and cost the rest of us billions of dollars as unwitting participants in their bail out.  The Ralph's union also drives up prices for groceries(and at the same time provides us with the worst possible service) which hurts those that shop there unless people stop going there(which they will unless the government creates another monopoly).

Henry Ford has contributed way more to society than Ron Gettlefinger has.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A union also helped bring GM to bankruptcy and cost the rest of us billions of dollars as unwitting participants in their bail out .
The Ralph 's union also drives up prices for groceries ( and at the same time provides us with the worst possible service ) which hurts those that shop there unless people stop going there ( which they will unless the government creates another monopoly ) .
Henry Ford has contributed way more to society than Ron Gettlefinger has .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A union also helped bring GM to bankruptcy and cost the rest of us billions of dollars as unwitting participants in their bail out.
The Ralph's union also drives up prices for groceries(and at the same time provides us with the worst possible service) which hurts those that shop there unless people stop going there(which they will unless the government creates another monopoly).
Henry Ford has contributed way more to society than Ron Gettlefinger has.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903728</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904858</id>
	<title>Re:I don't have a degree...</title>
	<author>Pojut</author>
	<datestamp>1264523220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My salary is no where near the 90k mark (then again I'm only 25), but I am a mail merge programmer for a fairly large call center (700+ employees) and I don't have a degree.  Haven't decided if I'm going to stay in the field or not, but if I do I am going to at least get a certification or two.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My salary is no where near the 90k mark ( then again I 'm only 25 ) , but I am a mail merge programmer for a fairly large call center ( 700 + employees ) and I do n't have a degree .
Have n't decided if I 'm going to stay in the field or not , but if I do I am going to at least get a certification or two .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My salary is no where near the 90k mark (then again I'm only 25), but I am a mail merge programmer for a fairly large call center (700+ employees) and I don't have a degree.
Haven't decided if I'm going to stay in the field or not, but if I do I am going to at least get a certification or two.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904136</id>
	<title>Re:Really?</title>
	<author>mario\_grgic</author>
	<datestamp>1264520640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Stop programming for Windows and you won't have to pay for your own tools. Everyone else gives their tools away.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Stop programming for Windows and you wo n't have to pay for your own tools .
Everyone else gives their tools away .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stop programming for Windows and you won't have to pay for your own tools.
Everyone else gives their tools away.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906290</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>delinear</author>
	<datestamp>1264528560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Web developers are a dime a dozen. Being in the position of trying to hire web developers who know what they're doing and actually care about it, I can say that <b>good</b> web developers are as rare as rocking horse excrement.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Web developers are a dime a dozen .
Being in the position of trying to hire web developers who know what they 're doing and actually care about it , I can say that good web developers are as rare as rocking horse excrement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Web developers are a dime a dozen.
Being in the position of trying to hire web developers who know what they're doing and actually care about it, I can say that good web developers are as rare as rocking horse excrement.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904156</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908132</id>
	<title>Must be willing to relocate</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264535940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You have to be willing to relocate and have more skills than just MS. I went back to school (i'm 40+)  and just got out. But.... I started doing cocoa touch development on my own and released sevearal apps in the iPhone app store. I relocated to California and i'm at 100K.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You have to be willing to relocate and have more skills than just MS. I went back to school ( i 'm 40 + ) and just got out .
But.... I started doing cocoa touch development on my own and released sevearal apps in the iPhone app store .
I relocated to California and i 'm at 100K .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You have to be willing to relocate and have more skills than just MS. I went back to school (i'm 40+)  and just got out.
But.... I started doing cocoa touch development on my own and released sevearal apps in the iPhone app store.
I relocated to California and i'm at 100K.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907034</id>
	<title>Re:I don't have a degree...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264531560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I ran out of money to pay for college and went looking for a job to help pay the rest of the way.</p><p>Starting pay here in Michigan I could get $28k.  In the DC area I got offered a job making $58k.  I did the math on cost of living and stayed in Michigan.  Four years later I haven't gone back to college and make a little over $40k.  It sounds horrible to my friends in DC, but I can afford to let the wife quit her job and stay home with the kid.  Sure I could move for a bigger number, but I have everything I want currently.</p><p>The point I'm trying to make is that running ads telling kids that you're going to make $60k right out of school (like they told me) is BS if you live anywhere but southern California, New York, or DC.  You'll basically start out earning enough to live by yourself in an apartment.  It'll take three to five years under your belt before you'll have enough to afford a house and a kid unless you get really lucky.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I ran out of money to pay for college and went looking for a job to help pay the rest of the way.Starting pay here in Michigan I could get $ 28k .
In the DC area I got offered a job making $ 58k .
I did the math on cost of living and stayed in Michigan .
Four years later I have n't gone back to college and make a little over $ 40k .
It sounds horrible to my friends in DC , but I can afford to let the wife quit her job and stay home with the kid .
Sure I could move for a bigger number , but I have everything I want currently.The point I 'm trying to make is that running ads telling kids that you 're going to make $ 60k right out of school ( like they told me ) is BS if you live anywhere but southern California , New York , or DC .
You 'll basically start out earning enough to live by yourself in an apartment .
It 'll take three to five years under your belt before you 'll have enough to afford a house and a kid unless you get really lucky .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I ran out of money to pay for college and went looking for a job to help pay the rest of the way.Starting pay here in Michigan I could get $28k.
In the DC area I got offered a job making $58k.
I did the math on cost of living and stayed in Michigan.
Four years later I haven't gone back to college and make a little over $40k.
It sounds horrible to my friends in DC, but I can afford to let the wife quit her job and stay home with the kid.
Sure I could move for a bigger number, but I have everything I want currently.The point I'm trying to make is that running ads telling kids that you're going to make $60k right out of school (like they told me) is BS if you live anywhere but southern California, New York, or DC.
You'll basically start out earning enough to live by yourself in an apartment.
It'll take three to five years under your belt before you'll have enough to afford a house and a kid unless you get really lucky.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903742</id>
	<title>you keep dry and sit around all day</title>
	<author>petes\_PoV</author>
	<datestamp>1264519200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>which makes it a "good job". Certainly compared with those people who have to work standing up (shop sales, manufacturing), on unsocial shifts or those who work outdoors and get wet when it rains. So far as being qualified or having a degree goes, that might count for something (other than merely a selection barrier to entry) if the skills people learned at university were actually used in their day-to-day work. Most of the IT people and programmers I meet are indistinguishable from non-degree types of the same age, when they're not talking about the one, single programming skill they have.</htmltext>
<tokenext>which makes it a " good job " .
Certainly compared with those people who have to work standing up ( shop sales , manufacturing ) , on unsocial shifts or those who work outdoors and get wet when it rains .
So far as being qualified or having a degree goes , that might count for something ( other than merely a selection barrier to entry ) if the skills people learned at university were actually used in their day-to-day work .
Most of the IT people and programmers I meet are indistinguishable from non-degree types of the same age , when they 're not talking about the one , single programming skill they have .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>which makes it a "good job".
Certainly compared with those people who have to work standing up (shop sales, manufacturing), on unsocial shifts or those who work outdoors and get wet when it rains.
So far as being qualified or having a degree goes, that might count for something (other than merely a selection barrier to entry) if the skills people learned at university were actually used in their day-to-day work.
Most of the IT people and programmers I meet are indistinguishable from non-degree types of the same age, when they're not talking about the one, single programming skill they have.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905748</id>
	<title>Re:No.</title>
	<author>ClosedSource</author>
	<datestamp>1264526520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Mind you, Programming == Computer Scientist as much as Machinist == Mechanical Engineer."</p><p>Hardly. If that were true we could have a moratorium on giving out CS degrees for a decade and still have too many. Outside of academia there isn't much use for a non-programming computer scientist.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Mind you , Programming = = Computer Scientist as much as Machinist = = Mechanical Engineer. " Hardly .
If that were true we could have a moratorium on giving out CS degrees for a decade and still have too many .
Outside of academia there is n't much use for a non-programming computer scientist .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Mind you, Programming == Computer Scientist as much as Machinist == Mechanical Engineer."Hardly.
If that were true we could have a moratorium on giving out CS degrees for a decade and still have too many.
Outside of academia there isn't much use for a non-programming computer scientist.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905314</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30917160</id>
	<title>Re:Depends....</title>
	<author>azmodean+1</author>
	<datestamp>1264607160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I know this was a joke, but it struck a chord with me.  I started out in mobile, AL, where the best programming job I could find was about $33K a year working on an embedded RTOS (that pretty much tells you what company it was, but whatever).  I took it, not realizing that I could easily do better elsewhere.  Two years later looked around a bit more and landed a job doing higher-level systems programming targeting sort-of embedded Linux in Milwaukee, WI starting at $65K a year (the benefits, however were ok, but not as good).  The moral of the story is to keep looking.  If you pin yourself down to one region, you are severely limiting your options.  Oh, and before someone says anything about cost of living differences, CoL in Milwaukee is *maybe* a few percent higher than in Mobile.  Regardless it's completely dwarfed by the wage disparity.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I know this was a joke , but it struck a chord with me .
I started out in mobile , AL , where the best programming job I could find was about $ 33K a year working on an embedded RTOS ( that pretty much tells you what company it was , but whatever ) .
I took it , not realizing that I could easily do better elsewhere .
Two years later looked around a bit more and landed a job doing higher-level systems programming targeting sort-of embedded Linux in Milwaukee , WI starting at $ 65K a year ( the benefits , however were ok , but not as good ) .
The moral of the story is to keep looking .
If you pin yourself down to one region , you are severely limiting your options .
Oh , and before someone says anything about cost of living differences , CoL in Milwaukee is * maybe * a few percent higher than in Mobile .
Regardless it 's completely dwarfed by the wage disparity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know this was a joke, but it struck a chord with me.
I started out in mobile, AL, where the best programming job I could find was about $33K a year working on an embedded RTOS (that pretty much tells you what company it was, but whatever).
I took it, not realizing that I could easily do better elsewhere.
Two years later looked around a bit more and landed a job doing higher-level systems programming targeting sort-of embedded Linux in Milwaukee, WI starting at $65K a year (the benefits, however were ok, but not as good).
The moral of the story is to keep looking.
If you pin yourself down to one region, you are severely limiting your options.
Oh, and before someone says anything about cost of living differences, CoL in Milwaukee is *maybe* a few percent higher than in Mobile.
Regardless it's completely dwarfed by the wage disparity.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905638</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264526100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>(predictable languages) like C, C++</p></div><p>What? What do you mean by that? You mean because of the VM? Or because you micromanage the memory on those "real" languages?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>( predictable languages ) like C , C + + What ?
What do you mean by that ?
You mean because of the VM ?
Or because you micromanage the memory on those " real " languages ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>(predictable languages) like C, C++What?
What do you mean by that?
You mean because of the VM?
Or because you micromanage the memory on those "real" languages?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905224</id>
	<title>Re:Not so much</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264524720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Internships.  Co-op.  Summer jobs.  Temp work.</p><p>Having a hobby at home that involves compiling linux kernels and running apache servers for fun.</p><p>Volunteer to run your church's website.</p><p>*shrug*  It worked for me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Internships .
Co-op. Summer jobs .
Temp work.Having a hobby at home that involves compiling linux kernels and running apache servers for fun.Volunteer to run your church 's website .
* shrug * It worked for me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Internships.
Co-op.  Summer jobs.
Temp work.Having a hobby at home that involves compiling linux kernels and running apache servers for fun.Volunteer to run your church's website.
*shrug*  It worked for me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905660</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264526160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>why being good with vi is a requisite;<br>even in VHDL test prove that a good ide make developer much productive.<br>please read some usability studies....</p><p>My personal experience with vi jockey is that they suck at learning new technique,<br>they are arrogant, short-sited and think that they know best way even out of there limited area of experience....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>why being good with vi is a requisite ; even in VHDL test prove that a good ide make developer much productive.please read some usability studies....My personal experience with vi jockey is that they suck at learning new technique,they are arrogant , short-sited and think that they know best way even out of there limited area of experience... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>why being good with vi is a requisite;even in VHDL test prove that a good ide make developer much productive.please read some usability studies....My personal experience with vi jockey is that they suck at learning new technique,they are arrogant, short-sited and think that they know best way even out of there limited area of experience....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908470</id>
	<title>Sounds like bull....</title>
	<author>twehrle</author>
	<datestamp>1264537080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This article and many of the comments, sound like rant from programmers who have not figured out how to become a professional developer in their careers. You can't just focus on programming, you have to become a business professional as well. That means you need to balance your skills as a developer, architect, business analyst, and project manager. I have been at this for 15 years now. I have seen many programmers who just couldn't do all of the above. In fact, one's who can do all of the above, seem to be rare. Companies are really looking for people who can do all of the above and will pay for them.</p><p>If all you want to do is pad your salary, then you need to target businesses/industries that have a high corresponding ratio of what they earn from their software developments. You can't expect to work for a company building iPhone apps or web sites, and expect to get paid big. If you are developing software that has a high rate of contribution to the bottom line and are good at it, in most cases you will get rewarded. But again, you need to practice all disciplines of a business professional.</p><p>As for the salary ranges, the context must be applied. I started in this career at around $60k, 15 years ago, in the Chicago area. Today (still in the Chicago area), I earn more than twice that in salary, before generally a double digit percentage bonus. I don't even have my degree.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This article and many of the comments , sound like rant from programmers who have not figured out how to become a professional developer in their careers .
You ca n't just focus on programming , you have to become a business professional as well .
That means you need to balance your skills as a developer , architect , business analyst , and project manager .
I have been at this for 15 years now .
I have seen many programmers who just could n't do all of the above .
In fact , one 's who can do all of the above , seem to be rare .
Companies are really looking for people who can do all of the above and will pay for them.If all you want to do is pad your salary , then you need to target businesses/industries that have a high corresponding ratio of what they earn from their software developments .
You ca n't expect to work for a company building iPhone apps or web sites , and expect to get paid big .
If you are developing software that has a high rate of contribution to the bottom line and are good at it , in most cases you will get rewarded .
But again , you need to practice all disciplines of a business professional.As for the salary ranges , the context must be applied .
I started in this career at around $ 60k , 15 years ago , in the Chicago area .
Today ( still in the Chicago area ) , I earn more than twice that in salary , before generally a double digit percentage bonus .
I do n't even have my degree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This article and many of the comments, sound like rant from programmers who have not figured out how to become a professional developer in their careers.
You can't just focus on programming, you have to become a business professional as well.
That means you need to balance your skills as a developer, architect, business analyst, and project manager.
I have been at this for 15 years now.
I have seen many programmers who just couldn't do all of the above.
In fact, one's who can do all of the above, seem to be rare.
Companies are really looking for people who can do all of the above and will pay for them.If all you want to do is pad your salary, then you need to target businesses/industries that have a high corresponding ratio of what they earn from their software developments.
You can't expect to work for a company building iPhone apps or web sites, and expect to get paid big.
If you are developing software that has a high rate of contribution to the bottom line and are good at it, in most cases you will get rewarded.
But again, you need to practice all disciplines of a business professional.As for the salary ranges, the context must be applied.
I started in this career at around $60k, 15 years ago, in the Chicago area.
Today (still in the Chicago area), I earn more than twice that in salary, before generally a double digit percentage bonus.
I don't even have my degree.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904260</id>
	<title>Re:the key to earning well in this field</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264521120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Last year I had a hard sit down meeting with my boss over my salary. I was doing 3x the amount of work I was when I started. I had moved from code monkey to team lead. I had become a key player in the design and flow of many projects.</p><p>Our meeting lasted over an hour, and at the end of it I wasn't a happy person. I told him I had come in with a number, anything under that number and I would leave. He asked me what my number was, and after I told him he thought on it for about 5min before saying 1k less. We agreed, shook hands, and I walked out a happy person.</p><p>Moral of the story? If you feel your value to the company doesn't match what you are being paid, fight for what you feel you're worth. If they value you and your work, they will try to keep you. And if not, then you know and you can leave without wondering 'what if'.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Last year I had a hard sit down meeting with my boss over my salary .
I was doing 3x the amount of work I was when I started .
I had moved from code monkey to team lead .
I had become a key player in the design and flow of many projects.Our meeting lasted over an hour , and at the end of it I was n't a happy person .
I told him I had come in with a number , anything under that number and I would leave .
He asked me what my number was , and after I told him he thought on it for about 5min before saying 1k less .
We agreed , shook hands , and I walked out a happy person.Moral of the story ?
If you feel your value to the company does n't match what you are being paid , fight for what you feel you 're worth .
If they value you and your work , they will try to keep you .
And if not , then you know and you can leave without wondering 'what if' .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Last year I had a hard sit down meeting with my boss over my salary.
I was doing 3x the amount of work I was when I started.
I had moved from code monkey to team lead.
I had become a key player in the design and flow of many projects.Our meeting lasted over an hour, and at the end of it I wasn't a happy person.
I told him I had come in with a number, anything under that number and I would leave.
He asked me what my number was, and after I told him he thought on it for about 5min before saying 1k less.
We agreed, shook hands, and I walked out a happy person.Moral of the story?
If you feel your value to the company doesn't match what you are being paid, fight for what you feel you're worth.
If they value you and your work, they will try to keep you.
And if not, then you know and you can leave without wondering 'what if'.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904586</id>
	<title>Re:Putting a dollar figure down is problematic</title>
	<author>gestalt\_n\_pepper</author>
	<datestamp>1264522200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And if you *really* want to be poor, move to New Mexico where the salaries are a wee bit above third world levels but not much.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And if you * really * want to be poor , move to New Mexico where the salaries are a wee bit above third world levels but not much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And if you *really* want to be poor, move to New Mexico where the salaries are a wee bit above third world levels but not much.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903500</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30911738</id>
	<title>Re:We are becoming more disposable</title>
	<author>ChrisMaple</author>
	<datestamp>1264509720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Unions have helped bring the human component to our work lives</p></div></blockquote><p>
Biggest laugh I've had all day. Unions have no interest in the outperformer. To the extent that they seem to help members, they protect the mediocre, the inferior, and those that could make an effective <i>cause celebre.</i> Unions want their members to appear interchangable, otherwise collective bargaining is an obvious fraud.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unions have helped bring the human component to our work lives Biggest laugh I 've had all day .
Unions have no interest in the outperformer .
To the extent that they seem to help members , they protect the mediocre , the inferior , and those that could make an effective cause celebre .
Unions want their members to appear interchangable , otherwise collective bargaining is an obvious fraud .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unions have helped bring the human component to our work lives
Biggest laugh I've had all day.
Unions have no interest in the outperformer.
To the extent that they seem to help members, they protect the mediocre, the inferior, and those that could make an effective cause celebre.
Unions want their members to appear interchangable, otherwise collective bargaining is an obvious fraud.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903728</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904708</id>
	<title>Re:the key to earning well in this field</title>
	<author>GottliebPins</author>
	<datestamp>1264522560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Absolutely true. I've stayed at companies for up to 5 years and never received more than a 2 or 3\% raise, but every time I've left a company I've gotten between 15 - 25\% raises. The only reason I'm staying where I am now is because I'm tired of jumping ship every couple of years. I like the benefits where I am and if the owners of the company somehow manage to avoid destroying what few good reasons there are for staying I'm looking to finish off my career here.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Absolutely true .
I 've stayed at companies for up to 5 years and never received more than a 2 or 3 \ % raise , but every time I 've left a company I 've gotten between 15 - 25 \ % raises .
The only reason I 'm staying where I am now is because I 'm tired of jumping ship every couple of years .
I like the benefits where I am and if the owners of the company somehow manage to avoid destroying what few good reasons there are for staying I 'm looking to finish off my career here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Absolutely true.
I've stayed at companies for up to 5 years and never received more than a 2 or 3\% raise, but every time I've left a company I've gotten between 15 - 25\% raises.
The only reason I'm staying where I am now is because I'm tired of jumping ship every couple of years.
I like the benefits where I am and if the owners of the company somehow manage to avoid destroying what few good reasons there are for staying I'm looking to finish off my career here.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30911432</id>
	<title>You Better</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264507860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We do real-time embedded systems. We use "real" languages (predictable languages) like C, C++, Ada, Fortran, and assembly.<br>Try ASM for web programming. The right Tool for the Job.  For the PC less predictable languages are fine. An Interpreted Raid design ones are great for one of test programs.<br>
&nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We do real-time embedded systems .
We use " real " languages ( predictable languages ) like C , C + + , Ada , Fortran , and assembly.Try ASM for web programming .
The right Tool for the Job .
For the PC less predictable languages are fine .
An Interpreted Raid design ones are great for one of test programs .
 </tokentext>
<sentencetext>We do real-time embedded systems.
We use "real" languages (predictable languages) like C, C++, Ada, Fortran, and assembly.Try ASM for web programming.
The right Tool for the Job.
For the PC less predictable languages are fine.
An Interpreted Raid design ones are great for one of test programs.
 </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905952</id>
	<title>Programmers vs. software engineers</title>
	<author>CrystalX</author>
	<datestamp>1264527240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...there's a difference.</p><p>The median income of a software enginner is $85,430 as of May 2008. Programmers make less, with $69,620 as the median as of May 2008.</p><p>Software engineers have design and architectural skills that programmers may lack. This is why they are paid more.</p><p>Source: <a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm" title="bls.gov" rel="nofollow">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm</a> [bls.gov]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...there 's a difference.The median income of a software enginner is $ 85,430 as of May 2008 .
Programmers make less , with $ 69,620 as the median as of May 2008.Software engineers have design and architectural skills that programmers may lack .
This is why they are paid more.Source : http : //www.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm [ bls.gov ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...there's a difference.The median income of a software enginner is $85,430 as of May 2008.
Programmers make less, with $69,620 as the median as of May 2008.Software engineers have design and architectural skills that programmers may lack.
This is why they are paid more.Source: http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm [bls.gov]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906528</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>paimin</author>
	<datestamp>1264529340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Protip:<br>
<br>
When you hear about "easy street", that means it's long gone.<br>
<br>
- Somone who moved to SF in 1997 and watched the slaughter</htmltext>
<tokenext>Protip : When you hear about " easy street " , that means it 's long gone .
- Somone who moved to SF in 1997 and watched the slaughter</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Protip:

When you hear about "easy street", that means it's long gone.
- Somone who moved to SF in 1997 and watched the slaughter</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30912266</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>Fred\_A</author>
	<datestamp>1264513740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You know where the REAL money is: Dead Programming languages.</p></div><p>And next week, we'll be talking about Amish computer programers !</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You know where the REAL money is : Dead Programming languages.And next week , we 'll be talking about Amish computer programers !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know where the REAL money is: Dead Programming languages.And next week, we'll be talking about Amish computer programers !
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904750</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907060</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>jeffstar</author>
	<datestamp>1264531620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>and how much does everyone make?</p><p>I've got an ee degree but have not specialized: java programming, control systems, worked for a utility, RF networks, etc.</p><p>I like it all, but I know I'm a piss poor java coder when I see the stuff other people put out, so would not want to be depending on that for my family's meal ticket.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and how much does everyone make ? I 've got an ee degree but have not specialized : java programming , control systems , worked for a utility , RF networks , etc.I like it all , but I know I 'm a piss poor java coder when I see the stuff other people put out , so would not want to be depending on that for my family 's meal ticket .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and how much does everyone make?I've got an ee degree but have not specialized: java programming, control systems, worked for a utility, RF networks, etc.I like it all, but I know I'm a piss poor java coder when I see the stuff other people put out, so would not want to be depending on that for my family's meal ticket.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904288</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905422</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>goose-incarnated</author>
	<datestamp>1264525380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Personally I would never ever higher a phd for a programing role.</p></div><p>
I can see why.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Personally I would never ever higher a phd for a programing role .
I can see why .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Personally I would never ever higher a phd for a programing role.
I can see why.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908622</id>
	<title>Re:Salary</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264537920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I dont understand. I am 23, i have 3 years of work experience.. i started @ 61k and now i am working in atlanta @80k. I really think if you're good at what you do you can get a decent paying job.</p><p>PS. i had more than one offer at 75k+</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I dont understand .
I am 23 , i have 3 years of work experience.. i started @ 61k and now i am working in atlanta @ 80k .
I really think if you 're good at what you do you can get a decent paying job.PS .
i had more than one offer at 75k +</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I dont understand.
I am 23, i have 3 years of work experience.. i started @ 61k and now i am working in atlanta @80k.
I really think if you're good at what you do you can get a decent paying job.PS.
i had more than one offer at 75k+</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903916</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908196</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264536180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your problem is that you're hiring the wrong people for the job.  CS majors have no business working on embedded systems, especially the real-time variety.  You need to be hiring computer engineers, or electrical engineers with a strong programming background.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your problem is that you 're hiring the wrong people for the job .
CS majors have no business working on embedded systems , especially the real-time variety .
You need to be hiring computer engineers , or electrical engineers with a strong programming background .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your problem is that you're hiring the wrong people for the job.
CS majors have no business working on embedded systems, especially the real-time variety.
You need to be hiring computer engineers, or electrical engineers with a strong programming background.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904544</id>
	<title>Re:Putting a dollar figure down is problematic</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264522020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a native and current resident of the DC area, I agree with you. I'm making somewhere between 80-90k and this is my first programming job (not first job, though). Even with that salary I can't even afford to buy a condo, let alone a house--so maybe that puts it in more perspective. My degree is in Computer Engineering and I think there's quite a difference in writing "enterprise" apps and doing embedded programming or DSP. Although both use software to produce a product, its the latter that actually requires proficiency in the higher level math that you learn in college.</p><p>Anyone else agree?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a native and current resident of the DC area , I agree with you .
I 'm making somewhere between 80-90k and this is my first programming job ( not first job , though ) .
Even with that salary I ca n't even afford to buy a condo , let alone a house--so maybe that puts it in more perspective .
My degree is in Computer Engineering and I think there 's quite a difference in writing " enterprise " apps and doing embedded programming or DSP .
Although both use software to produce a product , its the latter that actually requires proficiency in the higher level math that you learn in college.Anyone else agree ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a native and current resident of the DC area, I agree with you.
I'm making somewhere between 80-90k and this is my first programming job (not first job, though).
Even with that salary I can't even afford to buy a condo, let alone a house--so maybe that puts it in more perspective.
My degree is in Computer Engineering and I think there's quite a difference in writing "enterprise" apps and doing embedded programming or DSP.
Although both use software to produce a product, its the latter that actually requires proficiency in the higher level math that you learn in college.Anyone else agree?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903500</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904686</id>
	<title>Re:the key to earning well in this field</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264522500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And people like you eventually end up not getting hired anymore because your prospective hirers can clearly tell that you do nothing but job hop and thus you'll be red flagged and usually rejected.  Only an idiot would listen to the advice of this person.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And people like you eventually end up not getting hired anymore because your prospective hirers can clearly tell that you do nothing but job hop and thus you 'll be red flagged and usually rejected .
Only an idiot would listen to the advice of this person .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And people like you eventually end up not getting hired anymore because your prospective hirers can clearly tell that you do nothing but job hop and thus you'll be red flagged and usually rejected.
Only an idiot would listen to the advice of this person.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30912934</id>
	<title>Re:Money isn't my primary interest</title>
	<author>vikstar</author>
	<datestamp>1264519680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I also love my programming work. I've only worked for scientists, professors, and in a small but experienced business run by a PhD, and they've all treated me like gold. They understand what intellectual work involves and how difficult it can be, and I get much praise. It's scary reading about the "managers" and the "big companies" that other people have had experience with, but in fun way, like watching a horror movie.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I also love my programming work .
I 've only worked for scientists , professors , and in a small but experienced business run by a PhD , and they 've all treated me like gold .
They understand what intellectual work involves and how difficult it can be , and I get much praise .
It 's scary reading about the " managers " and the " big companies " that other people have had experience with , but in fun way , like watching a horror movie .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I also love my programming work.
I've only worked for scientists, professors, and in a small but experienced business run by a PhD, and they've all treated me like gold.
They understand what intellectual work involves and how difficult it can be, and I get much praise.
It's scary reading about the "managers" and the "big companies" that other people have had experience with, but in fun way, like watching a horror movie.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903688</id>
	<title>the key to earning well in this field</title>
	<author>jollyreaper</author>
	<datestamp>1264518960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Goes for programming and infrastructure and all things IT -- you have to move around a lot. Employers in general have no interest in paying you more once you work there. If you want another $15k, you have to move elsewhere. Time at a company is spend padding resumes and earning certifications. Then you move. You might move back to the original company if they make a better offer. Employer logic is "We got the guy for $x, why should we pay him any more once we have him?" Doesn't matter if you complete a second degree while you're there, move from jr. developer to lead designer, take on more responsibilities, you'll get piddle-shit raises.</p><p>This kills me. I don't want to be job-hopping. I'd like to build some time with a place, earn some kudos and sweat equity. But those things don't exist. Been at a company a month or twenty years, you are equally expendable. Treat your employer the same way. And die a little inside. People want to think of the office as family because we're social creatures. Few people enjoy living life out as a lesson in Randian objectivism, looking for leverage in the battle of who's screwing whom. We aren't meant to live like that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Goes for programming and infrastructure and all things IT -- you have to move around a lot .
Employers in general have no interest in paying you more once you work there .
If you want another $ 15k , you have to move elsewhere .
Time at a company is spend padding resumes and earning certifications .
Then you move .
You might move back to the original company if they make a better offer .
Employer logic is " We got the guy for $ x , why should we pay him any more once we have him ?
" Does n't matter if you complete a second degree while you 're there , move from jr. developer to lead designer , take on more responsibilities , you 'll get piddle-shit raises.This kills me .
I do n't want to be job-hopping .
I 'd like to build some time with a place , earn some kudos and sweat equity .
But those things do n't exist .
Been at a company a month or twenty years , you are equally expendable .
Treat your employer the same way .
And die a little inside .
People want to think of the office as family because we 're social creatures .
Few people enjoy living life out as a lesson in Randian objectivism , looking for leverage in the battle of who 's screwing whom .
We are n't meant to live like that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Goes for programming and infrastructure and all things IT -- you have to move around a lot.
Employers in general have no interest in paying you more once you work there.
If you want another $15k, you have to move elsewhere.
Time at a company is spend padding resumes and earning certifications.
Then you move.
You might move back to the original company if they make a better offer.
Employer logic is "We got the guy for $x, why should we pay him any more once we have him?
" Doesn't matter if you complete a second degree while you're there, move from jr. developer to lead designer, take on more responsibilities, you'll get piddle-shit raises.This kills me.
I don't want to be job-hopping.
I'd like to build some time with a place, earn some kudos and sweat equity.
But those things don't exist.
Been at a company a month or twenty years, you are equally expendable.
Treat your employer the same way.
And die a little inside.
People want to think of the office as family because we're social creatures.
Few people enjoy living life out as a lesson in Randian objectivism, looking for leverage in the battle of who's screwing whom.
We aren't meant to live like that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905314</id>
	<title>Re:No.</title>
	<author>TheKidWho</author>
	<datestamp>1264525020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The Bureau of Labor Satistics would disagree with you...</p><p><i>Median annual wages of computer and information scientists were $97,970 in May 2008. The middle 50 percent earned between $75,340 and $124,370. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $57,480, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $151,250. Median annual wages of computer and information scientists employed in computer systems design and related services in May 2008 were $99,900.</i></p><p><a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos304.htm" title="bls.gov">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos304.htm</a> [bls.gov]</p><p>Mind you, Programming == Computer Scientist as much as Machinist == Mechanical Engineer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The Bureau of Labor Satistics would disagree with you...Median annual wages of computer and information scientists were $ 97,970 in May 2008 .
The middle 50 percent earned between $ 75,340 and $ 124,370 .
The lowest 10 percent earned less than $ 57,480 , and the highest 10 percent earned more than $ 151,250 .
Median annual wages of computer and information scientists employed in computer systems design and related services in May 2008 were $ 99,900.http : //www.bls.gov/oco/ocos304.htm [ bls.gov ] Mind you , Programming = = Computer Scientist as much as Machinist = = Mechanical Engineer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Bureau of Labor Satistics would disagree with you...Median annual wages of computer and information scientists were $97,970 in May 2008.
The middle 50 percent earned between $75,340 and $124,370.
The lowest 10 percent earned less than $57,480, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $151,250.
Median annual wages of computer and information scientists employed in computer systems design and related services in May 2008 were $99,900.http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos304.htm [bls.gov]Mind you, Programming == Computer Scientist as much as Machinist == Mechanical Engineer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903426</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905408</id>
	<title>Re:Depends....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264525320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To be fair, here in the UK you can do worse than to get a job as a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET or Java programmer after graduation, it'll net you a &pound;20k - &pound;30k starting salary depending on how good you are and how lucky you get. It's not brilliant, but it's a pretty good wage range for a fresh graduate and better than ending up in an IT support role at &pound;16k like I've seen many graduates do. As jobs go, this level of graduate developer role is usually quite cushy- not too bad hours, sat in a nice warm office, 25 days annual leave, not particularly stressful, and as it's<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET or Java, not particularly hard either. It's not brilliant, but again, as it's a first job, you can (and many graduates certainly do) do a lot worse.</p><p>The problem is when you get to the high end, you need to find a niche and be fucking good in that niche to start raking in the real money.</p><p>Getting above the average starting salary should be a pushover in this type of role though, it's the type of job that will easily sit you in the middle class bracket without too much stress etc. but it's not going to make you rich. Getting a job on &pound;35k in about 5 years should be pretty easy- iirc the national average salary in the UK is around &pound;25k.</p><p>Or to answer the original question- it's not bad, but if you want to become really well off as early in life as possible, then here in the UK at least, it's banking, law or becoming a doctor. Either that or win the lottery.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To be fair , here in the UK you can do worse than to get a job as a .NET or Java programmer after graduation , it 'll net you a   20k -   30k starting salary depending on how good you are and how lucky you get .
It 's not brilliant , but it 's a pretty good wage range for a fresh graduate and better than ending up in an IT support role at   16k like I 've seen many graduates do .
As jobs go , this level of graduate developer role is usually quite cushy- not too bad hours , sat in a nice warm office , 25 days annual leave , not particularly stressful , and as it 's .NET or Java , not particularly hard either .
It 's not brilliant , but again , as it 's a first job , you can ( and many graduates certainly do ) do a lot worse.The problem is when you get to the high end , you need to find a niche and be fucking good in that niche to start raking in the real money.Getting above the average starting salary should be a pushover in this type of role though , it 's the type of job that will easily sit you in the middle class bracket without too much stress etc .
but it 's not going to make you rich .
Getting a job on   35k in about 5 years should be pretty easy- iirc the national average salary in the UK is around   25k.Or to answer the original question- it 's not bad , but if you want to become really well off as early in life as possible , then here in the UK at least , it 's banking , law or becoming a doctor .
Either that or win the lottery .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To be fair, here in the UK you can do worse than to get a job as a .NET or Java programmer after graduation, it'll net you a £20k - £30k starting salary depending on how good you are and how lucky you get.
It's not brilliant, but it's a pretty good wage range for a fresh graduate and better than ending up in an IT support role at £16k like I've seen many graduates do.
As jobs go, this level of graduate developer role is usually quite cushy- not too bad hours, sat in a nice warm office, 25 days annual leave, not particularly stressful, and as it's .NET or Java, not particularly hard either.
It's not brilliant, but again, as it's a first job, you can (and many graduates certainly do) do a lot worse.The problem is when you get to the high end, you need to find a niche and be fucking good in that niche to start raking in the real money.Getting above the average starting salary should be a pushover in this type of role though, it's the type of job that will easily sit you in the middle class bracket without too much stress etc.
but it's not going to make you rich.
Getting a job on £35k in about 5 years should be pretty easy- iirc the national average salary in the UK is around £25k.Or to answer the original question- it's not bad, but if you want to become really well off as early in life as possible, then here in the UK at least, it's banking, law or becoming a doctor.
Either that or win the lottery.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903472</id>
	<title>missing number</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264518060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is one of those contexts where the standard deviation would be helpful, or even a graph showing the distribution of salaries.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is one of those contexts where the standard deviation would be helpful , or even a graph showing the distribution of salaries .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is one of those contexts where the standard deviation would be helpful, or even a graph showing the distribution of salaries.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904996</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264523820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In 1999 I had over 10 years of experience and had been contracting to a company for almost 3 years.  Y2K came and went and the company had to scale back drastically.</p><p>I'm finally back to the salary range I was back then and am seriously considering moving into some other profession.  My brother has been a Millwright for about 10 years, makes almost as much as I do and has most of his summer off.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In 1999 I had over 10 years of experience and had been contracting to a company for almost 3 years .
Y2K came and went and the company had to scale back drastically.I 'm finally back to the salary range I was back then and am seriously considering moving into some other profession .
My brother has been a Millwright for about 10 years , makes almost as much as I do and has most of his summer off .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In 1999 I had over 10 years of experience and had been contracting to a company for almost 3 years.
Y2K came and went and the company had to scale back drastically.I'm finally back to the salary range I was back then and am seriously considering moving into some other profession.
My brother has been a Millwright for about 10 years, makes almost as much as I do and has most of his summer off.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903452</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904498</id>
	<title>You decide</title>
	<author>GottliebPins</author>
	<datestamp>1264521900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've been a software developer for over 30 years and I'm still trying to decide if it's a lucrative profession.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been a software developer for over 30 years and I 'm still trying to decide if it 's a lucrative profession .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been a software developer for over 30 years and I'm still trying to decide if it's a lucrative profession.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905414</id>
	<title>Re:really, 60,000 starting?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264525320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>With a few full-time internships under my belt I started at 58k fresh out of college.  Sadly I'm in the D.C. area, so I can barely live on that while still paying off student loans.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>With a few full-time internships under my belt I started at 58k fresh out of college .
Sadly I 'm in the D.C. area , so I can barely live on that while still paying off student loans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>With a few full-time internships under my belt I started at 58k fresh out of college.
Sadly I'm in the D.C. area, so I can barely live on that while still paying off student loans.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903510</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906414</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>paimin</author>
	<datestamp>1264528980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Protip:<br>
<br>
When you hear about an "easy-street", that means it's long gone.<br>
<br>
- Somone who moved to SF in 1997 and watched the slaughter</htmltext>
<tokenext>Protip : When you hear about an " easy-street " , that means it 's long gone .
- Somone who moved to SF in 1997 and watched the slaughter</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Protip:

When you hear about an "easy-street", that means it's long gone.
- Somone who moved to SF in 1997 and watched the slaughter</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907470</id>
	<title>Re:Resume</title>
	<author>Baranovich</author>
	<datestamp>1264533480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I had a professor in college that was fond of referring to Java as "C++-" (that's C plus plus minus).</htmltext>
<tokenext>I had a professor in college that was fond of referring to Java as " C + + - " ( that 's C plus plus minus ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had a professor in college that was fond of referring to Java as "C++-" (that's C plus plus minus).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903598</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909790</id>
	<title>London wages</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264499940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>US salaries on average seem to work out higher than UK. I've got 10 years experience and am on an above-average salary for a developer in London, and that still only works out at $70K. And that's living in one of the most expensive cities in the world. On the other hand, it's also more than double what many of my friends are on.<br>What's a real shame is that there isn't any real effort to recognise the star programmers and pay them what they're actually worth relative to the poor ones. One of the introductory books on software design actually suggests that the difference between a good programmer and a bad one can be a factor of 20 in terms of productivity. I'm currently at a place where I'm the 2nd<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET developer, and the first one has done at most 1/5 as much work as I have, while the developer in the US office has probably been even less productive, so while a factor of 20 may seem like an overstatement, it's not... I've worked with worse 'programmers' than these current ones... and have known others who have held senior positions by claiming credit for the work done underneath them (though the prime example of that lasted exactly 3 weeks after the person under them left and they got rumbled).<br>I'm sure there is a fairly wide distribution in salaries, because there are a lot of mediocre developers who can slowly put together code and only deserve a moderate salary to represent the hard work and limited skill they've acquired, and there are a much smaller number of programmers who eat and sleep it like the finance-sector traders eat and sleep their jobs - the difference is that the traders get million pound bonuses, while the one productive developer mainly just carries the rest of the department and gets little to no bonus. You'd have thought it's the highly paid contractors who are those stars, but I'd tend to say that a lot of the best paid ones are mainly good at selling themselves.<br>I agree with the hunting around - you can get the best of both worlds, though, rather than dying a piece at a time. Look at it as widening your contacts and people you know, and if you get an offer, you can always go to your current employer and ask them to match the offer - I haven't managed to get an extra $15k , but I've got a pay increase of $9k while staying in the same role... if they won't match the offer, you are still in control as you can decide whether to stick with the employer you know or pursue higher rewards elsewhere.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>US salaries on average seem to work out higher than UK .
I 've got 10 years experience and am on an above-average salary for a developer in London , and that still only works out at $ 70K .
And that 's living in one of the most expensive cities in the world .
On the other hand , it 's also more than double what many of my friends are on.What 's a real shame is that there is n't any real effort to recognise the star programmers and pay them what they 're actually worth relative to the poor ones .
One of the introductory books on software design actually suggests that the difference between a good programmer and a bad one can be a factor of 20 in terms of productivity .
I 'm currently at a place where I 'm the 2nd .NET developer , and the first one has done at most 1/5 as much work as I have , while the developer in the US office has probably been even less productive , so while a factor of 20 may seem like an overstatement , it 's not... I 've worked with worse 'programmers ' than these current ones... and have known others who have held senior positions by claiming credit for the work done underneath them ( though the prime example of that lasted exactly 3 weeks after the person under them left and they got rumbled ) .I 'm sure there is a fairly wide distribution in salaries , because there are a lot of mediocre developers who can slowly put together code and only deserve a moderate salary to represent the hard work and limited skill they 've acquired , and there are a much smaller number of programmers who eat and sleep it like the finance-sector traders eat and sleep their jobs - the difference is that the traders get million pound bonuses , while the one productive developer mainly just carries the rest of the department and gets little to no bonus .
You 'd have thought it 's the highly paid contractors who are those stars , but I 'd tend to say that a lot of the best paid ones are mainly good at selling themselves.I agree with the hunting around - you can get the best of both worlds , though , rather than dying a piece at a time .
Look at it as widening your contacts and people you know , and if you get an offer , you can always go to your current employer and ask them to match the offer - I have n't managed to get an extra $ 15k , but I 've got a pay increase of $ 9k while staying in the same role... if they wo n't match the offer , you are still in control as you can decide whether to stick with the employer you know or pursue higher rewards elsewhere .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>US salaries on average seem to work out higher than UK.
I've got 10 years experience and am on an above-average salary for a developer in London, and that still only works out at $70K.
And that's living in one of the most expensive cities in the world.
On the other hand, it's also more than double what many of my friends are on.What's a real shame is that there isn't any real effort to recognise the star programmers and pay them what they're actually worth relative to the poor ones.
One of the introductory books on software design actually suggests that the difference between a good programmer and a bad one can be a factor of 20 in terms of productivity.
I'm currently at a place where I'm the 2nd .NET developer, and the first one has done at most 1/5 as much work as I have, while the developer in the US office has probably been even less productive, so while a factor of 20 may seem like an overstatement, it's not... I've worked with worse 'programmers' than these current ones... and have known others who have held senior positions by claiming credit for the work done underneath them (though the prime example of that lasted exactly 3 weeks after the person under them left and they got rumbled).I'm sure there is a fairly wide distribution in salaries, because there are a lot of mediocre developers who can slowly put together code and only deserve a moderate salary to represent the hard work and limited skill they've acquired, and there are a much smaller number of programmers who eat and sleep it like the finance-sector traders eat and sleep their jobs - the difference is that the traders get million pound bonuses, while the one productive developer mainly just carries the rest of the department and gets little to no bonus.
You'd have thought it's the highly paid contractors who are those stars, but I'd tend to say that a lot of the best paid ones are mainly good at selling themselves.I agree with the hunting around - you can get the best of both worlds, though, rather than dying a piece at a time.
Look at it as widening your contacts and people you know, and if you get an offer, you can always go to your current employer and ask them to match the offer - I haven't managed to get an extra $15k , but I've got a pay increase of $9k while staying in the same role... if they won't match the offer, you are still in control as you can decide whether to stick with the employer you know or pursue higher rewards elsewhere.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903736</id>
	<title>Listen to the suits</title>
	<author>dkleinsc</author>
	<datestamp>1264519140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you listen to people who don't do tech work talk about techies, you'll quickly realize that a lot of them do in fact put techies on roughly the same level as mechanics or bricklayers. You can think of yourself as a "knowledge worker" all you want, but the fact remains that you are going to be treated like a bricklayer. My most educated guess on why this is true is that techies produce useful products. In most businesses, the act of producing something (rather than selling something or organizing other people to produce something) severely limits your chances for advancement past the equivalent of senior foreman.</p><p>There are 3 ways to avoid this fate that I know of:<br>1. Do some serious and visible work for your company about issues that aren't tech-related. For instance, if you provide intelligent input about pricing, the salespeople will respect you a lot more.<br>2. Work at a company who's business is technology, which is still run by a techie. Make sure to leave once the suits take over.<br>3. Start your own company, and watch out that you don't completely become a suit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you listen to people who do n't do tech work talk about techies , you 'll quickly realize that a lot of them do in fact put techies on roughly the same level as mechanics or bricklayers .
You can think of yourself as a " knowledge worker " all you want , but the fact remains that you are going to be treated like a bricklayer .
My most educated guess on why this is true is that techies produce useful products .
In most businesses , the act of producing something ( rather than selling something or organizing other people to produce something ) severely limits your chances for advancement past the equivalent of senior foreman.There are 3 ways to avoid this fate that I know of : 1 .
Do some serious and visible work for your company about issues that are n't tech-related .
For instance , if you provide intelligent input about pricing , the salespeople will respect you a lot more.2 .
Work at a company who 's business is technology , which is still run by a techie .
Make sure to leave once the suits take over.3 .
Start your own company , and watch out that you do n't completely become a suit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you listen to people who don't do tech work talk about techies, you'll quickly realize that a lot of them do in fact put techies on roughly the same level as mechanics or bricklayers.
You can think of yourself as a "knowledge worker" all you want, but the fact remains that you are going to be treated like a bricklayer.
My most educated guess on why this is true is that techies produce useful products.
In most businesses, the act of producing something (rather than selling something or organizing other people to produce something) severely limits your chances for advancement past the equivalent of senior foreman.There are 3 ways to avoid this fate that I know of:1.
Do some serious and visible work for your company about issues that aren't tech-related.
For instance, if you provide intelligent input about pricing, the salespeople will respect you a lot more.2.
Work at a company who's business is technology, which is still run by a techie.
Make sure to leave once the suits take over.3.
Start your own company, and watch out that you don't completely become a suit.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903802</id>
	<title>As a recent graduate...</title>
	<author>AllyGreen</author>
	<datestamp>1264519440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I know that is a lot of crap! I live in the uk and earn roughly &pound;25K, prob about &pound;35K?

I've always thought that to really make money out of a programming career, you have to start you're own business, do it for yourself with an original idea. Otherwise you do seem to end up becoming another wheel in the cog. I might be wrong, but its just the way things seem to be to me.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I know that is a lot of crap !
I live in the uk and earn roughly   25K , prob about   35K ?
I 've always thought that to really make money out of a programming career , you have to start you 're own business , do it for yourself with an original idea .
Otherwise you do seem to end up becoming another wheel in the cog .
I might be wrong , but its just the way things seem to be to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know that is a lot of crap!
I live in the uk and earn roughly £25K, prob about £35K?
I've always thought that to really make money out of a programming career, you have to start you're own business, do it for yourself with an original idea.
Otherwise you do seem to end up becoming another wheel in the cog.
I might be wrong, but its just the way things seem to be to me.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30913790</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>geezer nerd</author>
	<datestamp>1264529220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>This has given me a glimpse to a darker side of Indian offshore consulting, which I've actually talked a lot with several of my Indian colleagues who also agree on this: you can end up with a consulting firm that sells the idea of development guided by a  a top-notch architect, and you swallow the tripe. And then the top-notch architect designs a system which looks solid, then he moves to another project. Then the consulting firm gets a whole bunch of sophomore kids from college find ways to replicate GOTO statements in Java to do the implementation. My first encounter with such practices from such a consulting team was when I was working together with an Indian colleague of mine (a really good software developer) in trying to make sense out of the mess. When we looked at the code and the original design, all we could do was say "WTF?".</p></div><p>
Back in the day, about 15 years ago, I had very similar experience outsourcing software maintenance to a firm in India. A couple of good guys came over to discuss the deal, and we were very pleased. They turned out to front a team of much, much less experienced people, and there were considerable pressures on the good guys to move to other projects. We were able to say NO. The shiny computers that were assured they were well-equipped with turned out to be mirage, and though we insisted in the contract they be completely legit, they did everything on pirated Microsoft products, which was not to our liking. The connectivity was always intermittent, and it was really difficult to communicate. Power failures seemed endemic. Eventually all worked out OK, and the contract ended amicably. Good luck to you.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This has given me a glimpse to a darker side of Indian offshore consulting , which I 've actually talked a lot with several of my Indian colleagues who also agree on this : you can end up with a consulting firm that sells the idea of development guided by a a top-notch architect , and you swallow the tripe .
And then the top-notch architect designs a system which looks solid , then he moves to another project .
Then the consulting firm gets a whole bunch of sophomore kids from college find ways to replicate GOTO statements in Java to do the implementation .
My first encounter with such practices from such a consulting team was when I was working together with an Indian colleague of mine ( a really good software developer ) in trying to make sense out of the mess .
When we looked at the code and the original design , all we could do was say " WTF ? " .
Back in the day , about 15 years ago , I had very similar experience outsourcing software maintenance to a firm in India .
A couple of good guys came over to discuss the deal , and we were very pleased .
They turned out to front a team of much , much less experienced people , and there were considerable pressures on the good guys to move to other projects .
We were able to say NO .
The shiny computers that were assured they were well-equipped with turned out to be mirage , and though we insisted in the contract they be completely legit , they did everything on pirated Microsoft products , which was not to our liking .
The connectivity was always intermittent , and it was really difficult to communicate .
Power failures seemed endemic .
Eventually all worked out OK , and the contract ended amicably .
Good luck to you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This has given me a glimpse to a darker side of Indian offshore consulting, which I've actually talked a lot with several of my Indian colleagues who also agree on this: you can end up with a consulting firm that sells the idea of development guided by a  a top-notch architect, and you swallow the tripe.
And then the top-notch architect designs a system which looks solid, then he moves to another project.
Then the consulting firm gets a whole bunch of sophomore kids from college find ways to replicate GOTO statements in Java to do the implementation.
My first encounter with such practices from such a consulting team was when I was working together with an Indian colleague of mine (a really good software developer) in trying to make sense out of the mess.
When we looked at the code and the original design, all we could do was say "WTF?".
Back in the day, about 15 years ago, I had very similar experience outsourcing software maintenance to a firm in India.
A couple of good guys came over to discuss the deal, and we were very pleased.
They turned out to front a team of much, much less experienced people, and there were considerable pressures on the good guys to move to other projects.
We were able to say NO.
The shiny computers that were assured they were well-equipped with turned out to be mirage, and though we insisted in the contract they be completely legit, they did everything on pirated Microsoft products, which was not to our liking.
The connectivity was always intermittent, and it was really difficult to communicate.
Power failures seemed endemic.
Eventually all worked out OK, and the contract ended amicably.
Good luck to you.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908334</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904824</id>
	<title>Re:As a recent graduate...</title>
	<author>plague911</author>
	<datestamp>1264523100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I to am a recent grad. My education is as an electrical engineer. I received a Masters in EE and as promptly offered a job as developer for a financial company where I will probably end up making over 100k my first year. If your stuck at a low paying programming job try and move industries. A programmer working for newegg is probably going to earn less than a programmer working at Pfizer is probably going to earn less than a programmer at Raytheon is probably going to earn less than a program at Goldman Sachs. You can easily get the idea. I can see starting salaries varying all over the board not just with skill sets or experience but what industry.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I to am a recent grad .
My education is as an electrical engineer .
I received a Masters in EE and as promptly offered a job as developer for a financial company where I will probably end up making over 100k my first year .
If your stuck at a low paying programming job try and move industries .
A programmer working for newegg is probably going to earn less than a programmer working at Pfizer is probably going to earn less than a programmer at Raytheon is probably going to earn less than a program at Goldman Sachs .
You can easily get the idea .
I can see starting salaries varying all over the board not just with skill sets or experience but what industry .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I to am a recent grad.
My education is as an electrical engineer.
I received a Masters in EE and as promptly offered a job as developer for a financial company where I will probably end up making over 100k my first year.
If your stuck at a low paying programming job try and move industries.
A programmer working for newegg is probably going to earn less than a programmer working at Pfizer is probably going to earn less than a programmer at Raytheon is probably going to earn less than a program at Goldman Sachs.
You can easily get the idea.
I can see starting salaries varying all over the board not just with skill sets or experience but what industry.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903802</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30919362</id>
	<title>17 years experience, $165k/year + 18\% bonus</title>
	<author>CPE1704TKS</author>
	<datestamp>1264615500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have 17 years experience in the Valley.  I have a $165k/year base + 18\% bonus.  So I guess it depends where you work and in what areas you specialize in.  If you're good, then you will be handsomely rewarded, I think.  If you're only making $50k/year, you need to be more aggressive and move to where the money is.  If you're too scared or would rather live close to where your family is, then don't complain you're not making enough as a programmer.  Don't expect to be paid $165k/yr while living in places that don't value your talent.</p><p>If you are 7'2" and play basketball in the Antarctic Men's basketball league, don't be surprised that your talents aren't as valued as highly as if you were playing in the NBA.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have 17 years experience in the Valley .
I have a $ 165k/year base + 18 \ % bonus .
So I guess it depends where you work and in what areas you specialize in .
If you 're good , then you will be handsomely rewarded , I think .
If you 're only making $ 50k/year , you need to be more aggressive and move to where the money is .
If you 're too scared or would rather live close to where your family is , then do n't complain you 're not making enough as a programmer .
Do n't expect to be paid $ 165k/yr while living in places that do n't value your talent.If you are 7'2 " and play basketball in the Antarctic Men 's basketball league , do n't be surprised that your talents are n't as valued as highly as if you were playing in the NBA .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have 17 years experience in the Valley.
I have a $165k/year base + 18\% bonus.
So I guess it depends where you work and in what areas you specialize in.
If you're good, then you will be handsomely rewarded, I think.
If you're only making $50k/year, you need to be more aggressive and move to where the money is.
If you're too scared or would rather live close to where your family is, then don't complain you're not making enough as a programmer.
Don't expect to be paid $165k/yr while living in places that don't value your talent.If you are 7'2" and play basketball in the Antarctic Men's basketball league, don't be surprised that your talents aren't as valued as highly as if you were playing in the NBA.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908386</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>sosume</author>
	<datestamp>1264536840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I stopped having fun in writing software a looooog time ago<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I stopped having fun in writing software a looooog time ago ... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I stopped having fun in writing software a looooog time ago ....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908256</id>
	<title>Re:i think when plumbing was first invented</title>
	<author>e2d2</author>
	<datestamp>1264536360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah agreed. I don't understand the obsession with being some professional suit behind a desk. If anything I want to be more like the plumber who works with his hands and understands his worth because it's self-evident. How people view me is not my concern, it's how I feel about myself and my work that matters.</p><p>As far as salary goes, well hell I sit behind a desk and stare at a glowing rectangle for a living! Sure it's challenging otherwise I wouldn't do it, but it beats a lot of other jobs. Like say, being a mason. Back breaking work, no health benefits, and a lot of the jobs are taken by illegal immigrants.</p><p>It's that whole "are you happy where you are at" thing. Some aren't. But I am. IT has treated me well. I don't know of any other profession that I can make 6-figures without a degree of any sort. If you think this industry isn't merit based you haven't been around long enough. Money talks and bullshit walks, or is forced out with pink slip in hand. I like that it is still that way and has not turned into a game of "my paper on the wall is fancier than yours" like so many professions have.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah agreed .
I do n't understand the obsession with being some professional suit behind a desk .
If anything I want to be more like the plumber who works with his hands and understands his worth because it 's self-evident .
How people view me is not my concern , it 's how I feel about myself and my work that matters.As far as salary goes , well hell I sit behind a desk and stare at a glowing rectangle for a living !
Sure it 's challenging otherwise I would n't do it , but it beats a lot of other jobs .
Like say , being a mason .
Back breaking work , no health benefits , and a lot of the jobs are taken by illegal immigrants.It 's that whole " are you happy where you are at " thing .
Some are n't .
But I am .
IT has treated me well .
I do n't know of any other profession that I can make 6-figures without a degree of any sort .
If you think this industry is n't merit based you have n't been around long enough .
Money talks and bullshit walks , or is forced out with pink slip in hand .
I like that it is still that way and has not turned into a game of " my paper on the wall is fancier than yours " like so many professions have .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah agreed.
I don't understand the obsession with being some professional suit behind a desk.
If anything I want to be more like the plumber who works with his hands and understands his worth because it's self-evident.
How people view me is not my concern, it's how I feel about myself and my work that matters.As far as salary goes, well hell I sit behind a desk and stare at a glowing rectangle for a living!
Sure it's challenging otherwise I wouldn't do it, but it beats a lot of other jobs.
Like say, being a mason.
Back breaking work, no health benefits, and a lot of the jobs are taken by illegal immigrants.It's that whole "are you happy where you are at" thing.
Some aren't.
But I am.
IT has treated me well.
I don't know of any other profession that I can make 6-figures without a degree of any sort.
If you think this industry isn't merit based you haven't been around long enough.
Money talks and bullshit walks, or is forced out with pink slip in hand.
I like that it is still that way and has not turned into a game of "my paper on the wall is fancier than yours" like so many professions have.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904626</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30912186</id>
	<title>Things are not nearly that bad</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264513200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I run a custom software company.  We create custom web-based software for our clients.  I employ (or contract) mroe than a dozen people and I'm adding as I can.  With the exception of a couple more junior developers, most of my programmers makes at or over $100,000.  Frankly, I wouldn't be able to GET the developers I need if it weren't for these salaries.  For what it's worth though, my senior developers are quite senior.  They're the thought leaders in this area.  (more on this in a bit)</p><p>Granted, we're working in fairly niche areas.  We do a lot of RIA/AJAX work for corporations using Adobe languages and tools.  The skills we rely on are either hard to find or in high demand and that drives up prices.</p><p>In all seriousness though, any developer can push themselves into these ranges.  All they need to do is 1) be really good (and no, not THAT good) 2) understand a lot of related technologies (for us it'd be Ajax/Jquery/Xml/SQL/etc/etc/etc.  3) write about it.  Start a technical blog and write articles a few times a week.  4) speak about it.  Volunteer to talk at industry conferences about topics that interest you.  (this is how you become a thought leader)</p><p>That's about it.  People will start to seek you out and you'll be able to demand higher prices.</p><p>Sorry for the Anon Coward, but I'm a Coward.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I run a custom software company .
We create custom web-based software for our clients .
I employ ( or contract ) mroe than a dozen people and I 'm adding as I can .
With the exception of a couple more junior developers , most of my programmers makes at or over $ 100,000 .
Frankly , I would n't be able to GET the developers I need if it were n't for these salaries .
For what it 's worth though , my senior developers are quite senior .
They 're the thought leaders in this area .
( more on this in a bit ) Granted , we 're working in fairly niche areas .
We do a lot of RIA/AJAX work for corporations using Adobe languages and tools .
The skills we rely on are either hard to find or in high demand and that drives up prices.In all seriousness though , any developer can push themselves into these ranges .
All they need to do is 1 ) be really good ( and no , not THAT good ) 2 ) understand a lot of related technologies ( for us it 'd be Ajax/Jquery/Xml/SQL/etc/etc/etc .
3 ) write about it .
Start a technical blog and write articles a few times a week .
4 ) speak about it .
Volunteer to talk at industry conferences about topics that interest you .
( this is how you become a thought leader ) That 's about it .
People will start to seek you out and you 'll be able to demand higher prices.Sorry for the Anon Coward , but I 'm a Coward .
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I run a custom software company.
We create custom web-based software for our clients.
I employ (or contract) mroe than a dozen people and I'm adding as I can.
With the exception of a couple more junior developers, most of my programmers makes at or over $100,000.
Frankly, I wouldn't be able to GET the developers I need if it weren't for these salaries.
For what it's worth though, my senior developers are quite senior.
They're the thought leaders in this area.
(more on this in a bit)Granted, we're working in fairly niche areas.
We do a lot of RIA/AJAX work for corporations using Adobe languages and tools.
The skills we rely on are either hard to find or in high demand and that drives up prices.In all seriousness though, any developer can push themselves into these ranges.
All they need to do is 1) be really good (and no, not THAT good) 2) understand a lot of related technologies (for us it'd be Ajax/Jquery/Xml/SQL/etc/etc/etc.
3) write about it.
Start a technical blog and write articles a few times a week.
4) speak about it.
Volunteer to talk at industry conferences about topics that interest you.
(this is how you become a thought leader)That's about it.
People will start to seek you out and you'll be able to demand higher prices.Sorry for the Anon Coward, but I'm a Coward.
;)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903860</id>
	<title>Location, Location, Location</title>
	<author>dgreer</author>
	<datestamp>1264519620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Simply put, there's three factors that determine what you're going to make.  Where you work physically (Palo Alto and Austin have significantly different pay rates for the same job), where you work financially (startups pay less than huge companies, state governments pay less than the feds, banks pay less than almost everyone<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;^), and where you work professionally (it's unlikely that an C or Java programmer with 10 years experience will make as much as a CCIE w/ 10 years experience).  A CS/BS is a ticket to ride, but you still gotta find your seat on the car and some have a better view than others<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:^).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Simply put , there 's three factors that determine what you 're going to make .
Where you work physically ( Palo Alto and Austin have significantly different pay rates for the same job ) , where you work financially ( startups pay less than huge companies , state governments pay less than the feds , banks pay less than almost everyone ; ^ ) , and where you work professionally ( it 's unlikely that an C or Java programmer with 10 years experience will make as much as a CCIE w/ 10 years experience ) .
A CS/BS is a ticket to ride , but you still got ta find your seat on the car and some have a better view than others : ^ ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Simply put, there's three factors that determine what you're going to make.
Where you work physically (Palo Alto and Austin have significantly different pay rates for the same job), where you work financially (startups pay less than huge companies, state governments pay less than the feds, banks pay less than almost everyone ;^), and where you work professionally (it's unlikely that an C or Java programmer with 10 years experience will make as much as a CCIE w/ 10 years experience).
A CS/BS is a ticket to ride, but you still gotta find your seat on the car and some have a better view than others :^).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30912984</id>
	<title>Re:We are becoming more disposable</title>
	<author>Eil</author>
	<datestamp>1264520220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, this is how it's supposed to work, no?</p><p>Except for those rare few who are lucky enough to be born unto a metric assload of money, there is no guarantee to a job and comfy lifestyle. Not even in the good old U.S.A. If you want it, you have to work for it. And that <i>includes</i> job satisfaction. It seems everyone has forgotten this.</p><p>Regardless of what you may think, there <i>are</i> good employers out there who treat their employees like the precious resources they are. Good salary, plenty of benefits, vacation time, camaraderie, room for advancement, etc. They're just hard to come by. You have to look for them by applying everywhere you can and networking your ass off. It seems to me all the people who piss and moan about how badly "everyone" in the workforce is treated is just really tired and bored of their own job yet are too lazy to move out of their comfort zone to try to find something better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , this is how it 's supposed to work , no ? Except for those rare few who are lucky enough to be born unto a metric assload of money , there is no guarantee to a job and comfy lifestyle .
Not even in the good old U.S.A. If you want it , you have to work for it .
And that includes job satisfaction .
It seems everyone has forgotten this.Regardless of what you may think , there are good employers out there who treat their employees like the precious resources they are .
Good salary , plenty of benefits , vacation time , camaraderie , room for advancement , etc .
They 're just hard to come by .
You have to look for them by applying everywhere you can and networking your ass off .
It seems to me all the people who piss and moan about how badly " everyone " in the workforce is treated is just really tired and bored of their own job yet are too lazy to move out of their comfort zone to try to find something better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, this is how it's supposed to work, no?Except for those rare few who are lucky enough to be born unto a metric assload of money, there is no guarantee to a job and comfy lifestyle.
Not even in the good old U.S.A. If you want it, you have to work for it.
And that includes job satisfaction.
It seems everyone has forgotten this.Regardless of what you may think, there are good employers out there who treat their employees like the precious resources they are.
Good salary, plenty of benefits, vacation time, camaraderie, room for advancement, etc.
They're just hard to come by.
You have to look for them by applying everywhere you can and networking your ass off.
It seems to me all the people who piss and moan about how badly "everyone" in the workforce is treated is just really tired and bored of their own job yet are too lazy to move out of their comfort zone to try to find something better.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903728</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908486</id>
	<title>Re:Hyperspecialization</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264537200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I'm a contractor working at a 30k employee company that is almost exclusively Linux / Java / Oracle.</p></div></blockquote><p>You could have just said 'I work for Oracle', its not like anyone else would admit to that setup.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a contractor working at a 30k employee company that is almost exclusively Linux / Java / Oracle.You could have just said 'I work for Oracle ' , its not like anyone else would admit to that setup .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a contractor working at a 30k employee company that is almost exclusively Linux / Java / Oracle.You could have just said 'I work for Oracle', its not like anyone else would admit to that setup.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903584</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907874</id>
	<title>Re:Depends....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264535040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So your state is average to above average in compensation then with more opportunities than most places provide, and a lower barrier to career entrance than most places too.  Is the name of your place Nirvana?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So your state is average to above average in compensation then with more opportunities than most places provide , and a lower barrier to career entrance than most places too .
Is the name of your place Nirvana ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So your state is average to above average in compensation then with more opportunities than most places provide, and a lower barrier to career entrance than most places too.
Is the name of your place Nirvana?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907094</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264531800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hmm, 1998-1999 I made 30 k fresh out of college doing programming - sort of - the first year was barely programming, but I had to take it to have a chance at something better later.  It took me a year to even get a job doing programming, that smack dab in the middle of the internet boom fresh out of school.  I worked for 8 bucks an hour in 97 repairing PCs.  And I had a 4 year CS degree from an expensive highly regarded school, and I graduated with honors.   I dread the thought of trying to get a job in this economy, even with years of experience.  I bet I'd move from making 60 k to at least ten grand less, despite having kept my skills up to date.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hmm , 1998-1999 I made 30 k fresh out of college doing programming - sort of - the first year was barely programming , but I had to take it to have a chance at something better later .
It took me a year to even get a job doing programming , that smack dab in the middle of the internet boom fresh out of school .
I worked for 8 bucks an hour in 97 repairing PCs .
And I had a 4 year CS degree from an expensive highly regarded school , and I graduated with honors .
I dread the thought of trying to get a job in this economy , even with years of experience .
I bet I 'd move from making 60 k to at least ten grand less , despite having kept my skills up to date .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hmm, 1998-1999 I made 30 k fresh out of college doing programming - sort of - the first year was barely programming, but I had to take it to have a chance at something better later.
It took me a year to even get a job doing programming, that smack dab in the middle of the internet boom fresh out of school.
I worked for 8 bucks an hour in 97 repairing PCs.
And I had a 4 year CS degree from an expensive highly regarded school, and I graduated with honors.
I dread the thought of trying to get a job in this economy, even with years of experience.
I bet I'd move from making 60 k to at least ten grand less, despite having kept my skills up to date.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903452</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903728</id>
	<title>We are becoming more disposable</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264519080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is, when people start working for the economy instead of the other way around, you get the problem of treating people like so many disposable parts. Unions have helped bring the human component to our work lives, but with their waning influence (and with people so willing to subsume their own interests to please the boss), we are going backwards and workers, even highly skilled, intelligent ones, become little more then means to an end (profit).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is , when people start working for the economy instead of the other way around , you get the problem of treating people like so many disposable parts .
Unions have helped bring the human component to our work lives , but with their waning influence ( and with people so willing to subsume their own interests to please the boss ) , we are going backwards and workers , even highly skilled , intelligent ones , become little more then means to an end ( profit ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is, when people start working for the economy instead of the other way around, you get the problem of treating people like so many disposable parts.
Unions have helped bring the human component to our work lives, but with their waning influence (and with people so willing to subsume their own interests to please the boss), we are going backwards and workers, even highly skilled, intelligent ones, become little more then means to an end (profit).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903924</id>
	<title>Right on the mark with my starting salary.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264519920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Coming straight out of school with no experience, I was offered a job in the upper end of the $54,000 - $74,000 salary range.  I am sure it depends on where you live but around my area in Maryland these salaries are not abnormal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Coming straight out of school with no experience , I was offered a job in the upper end of the $ 54,000 - $ 74,000 salary range .
I am sure it depends on where you live but around my area in Maryland these salaries are not abnormal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Coming straight out of school with no experience, I was offered a job in the upper end of the $54,000 - $74,000 salary range.
I am sure it depends on where you live but around my area in Maryland these salaries are not abnormal.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904552</id>
	<title>Re:For Engineers maybe</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264522080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>depends, are we talking $USD or $CD?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>depends , are we talking $ USD or $ CD ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>depends, are we talking $USD or $CD?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904010</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904646</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>plague911</author>
	<datestamp>1264522380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>One reason is because every now and than a major paradigm shift happens or simply you find a small but very important situation where a different method will accomplish in 10 lines what 10000 lines would have required. either way its usually good to have someone with a few tricks up their bag so they can save your ass.</htmltext>
<tokenext>One reason is because every now and than a major paradigm shift happens or simply you find a small but very important situation where a different method will accomplish in 10 lines what 10000 lines would have required .
either way its usually good to have someone with a few tricks up their bag so they can save your ass .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One reason is because every now and than a major paradigm shift happens or simply you find a small but very important situation where a different method will accomplish in 10 lines what 10000 lines would have required.
either way its usually good to have someone with a few tricks up their bag so they can save your ass.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906818</id>
	<title>Re:Depends....</title>
	<author>drsquare</author>
	<datestamp>1264530660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The best job in the UK is MP. You don't even need and skills or qualifications, you can only be fired once every five years, you get several multiples of the average wage, and the same again in expenses. You don't even have to turn up for work other than to file expense claims. And you can smoke in the subsidised bar.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The best job in the UK is MP .
You do n't even need and skills or qualifications , you can only be fired once every five years , you get several multiples of the average wage , and the same again in expenses .
You do n't even have to turn up for work other than to file expense claims .
And you can smoke in the subsidised bar .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The best job in the UK is MP.
You don't even need and skills or qualifications, you can only be fired once every five years, you get several multiples of the average wage, and the same again in expenses.
You don't even have to turn up for work other than to file expense claims.
And you can smoke in the subsidised bar.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905408</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907158</id>
	<title>Re:Specialize and Localize</title>
	<author>GodfatherofSoul</author>
	<datestamp>1264532040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>Specialize and localize</i> </p><p>Tell that to the dodo.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Specialize and localize Tell that to the dodo .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Specialize and localize Tell that to the dodo.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906152</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907352</id>
	<title>Nonsense.</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1264532880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are jobs out there that I would not wish on my worst enemies.</p><p>There is nothing wrong to look for the money, as long as you are realistic about the pressures and frustrations you will have to face to obtain it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are jobs out there that I would not wish on my worst enemies.There is nothing wrong to look for the money , as long as you are realistic about the pressures and frustrations you will have to face to obtain it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are jobs out there that I would not wish on my worst enemies.There is nothing wrong to look for the money, as long as you are realistic about the pressures and frustrations you will have to face to obtain it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907692</id>
	<title>$56k straight out of college with a BS</title>
	<author>RemoWilliams84</author>
	<datestamp>1264534380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I graduated college from a lesser known school a year ago and got two offers.  First was 54k, second was 56k.  I was a c++ developer and could have taken the first job doing c++, but I thought I would go with the Java developer because the workers seemed a little more enthusiastic and happy to be there.</p><p>Haven't regretted it at all.  By the way, I live and work in Huntsville, AL so the cost of living is fairly low.  Our job and housing markets have also been steady due to the amount of work on Redstone Arsenal.</p><p>My numbers were right in line with that of the article, but my experience may not be typical.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I graduated college from a lesser known school a year ago and got two offers .
First was 54k , second was 56k .
I was a c + + developer and could have taken the first job doing c + + , but I thought I would go with the Java developer because the workers seemed a little more enthusiastic and happy to be there.Have n't regretted it at all .
By the way , I live and work in Huntsville , AL so the cost of living is fairly low .
Our job and housing markets have also been steady due to the amount of work on Redstone Arsenal.My numbers were right in line with that of the article , but my experience may not be typical .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I graduated college from a lesser known school a year ago and got two offers.
First was 54k, second was 56k.
I was a c++ developer and could have taken the first job doing c++, but I thought I would go with the Java developer because the workers seemed a little more enthusiastic and happy to be there.Haven't regretted it at all.
By the way, I live and work in Huntsville, AL so the cost of living is fairly low.
Our job and housing markets have also been steady due to the amount of work on Redstone Arsenal.My numbers were right in line with that of the article, but my experience may not be typical.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907962</id>
	<title>Re:Money isn't my primary interest</title>
	<author>Bigbutt</author>
	<datestamp>1264535400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The funny thing is that I originally got into programming because of my interests in gaming (D&amp;D, Car Wars, Traveller). I wrote programs to help me with the games.</p><p>From there I got a part time job maintaining Basic programs. Then a full time job programming. I was working on cleaning up the program I was managing because it was such a hack (Funeral Home software running on a Baby-36) when I was instructed to get it wrapped up and on a disk to send to a vendor who wanted to sell it. I went to the manager and said it wasn't ready to go out the door yet. It wasn't resolved as the company had failed to pay Employee Taxes and was being investigated by the IRS so I headed out the door.</p><p>My next job was as a LAN Admin though and not a programmer. See, I <b>like</b> programming. I like it enough to not get paid for it. I kept programming. Usenet news reader, 3com network tools, BBS Doors, gaming tools, scripts like perl, php, javascript.</p><p>Now I'm a Senior Unix Admin. I don't have anyone insisting I create this module their way. I don't have to work long hours except when something breaks. And due to my programming skills, I'm able to make use of a lot of tech to make my job easier and to keep me from having to work long hours.</p><p>And I still program. Because I like to program. And I still like to program because I'm not doing it as a day job.</p><p>[John]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The funny thing is that I originally got into programming because of my interests in gaming ( D&amp;D , Car Wars , Traveller ) .
I wrote programs to help me with the games.From there I got a part time job maintaining Basic programs .
Then a full time job programming .
I was working on cleaning up the program I was managing because it was such a hack ( Funeral Home software running on a Baby-36 ) when I was instructed to get it wrapped up and on a disk to send to a vendor who wanted to sell it .
I went to the manager and said it was n't ready to go out the door yet .
It was n't resolved as the company had failed to pay Employee Taxes and was being investigated by the IRS so I headed out the door.My next job was as a LAN Admin though and not a programmer .
See , I like programming .
I like it enough to not get paid for it .
I kept programming .
Usenet news reader , 3com network tools , BBS Doors , gaming tools , scripts like perl , php , javascript.Now I 'm a Senior Unix Admin .
I do n't have anyone insisting I create this module their way .
I do n't have to work long hours except when something breaks .
And due to my programming skills , I 'm able to make use of a lot of tech to make my job easier and to keep me from having to work long hours.And I still program .
Because I like to program .
And I still like to program because I 'm not doing it as a day job .
[ John ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The funny thing is that I originally got into programming because of my interests in gaming (D&amp;D, Car Wars, Traveller).
I wrote programs to help me with the games.From there I got a part time job maintaining Basic programs.
Then a full time job programming.
I was working on cleaning up the program I was managing because it was such a hack (Funeral Home software running on a Baby-36) when I was instructed to get it wrapped up and on a disk to send to a vendor who wanted to sell it.
I went to the manager and said it wasn't ready to go out the door yet.
It wasn't resolved as the company had failed to pay Employee Taxes and was being investigated by the IRS so I headed out the door.My next job was as a LAN Admin though and not a programmer.
See, I like programming.
I like it enough to not get paid for it.
I kept programming.
Usenet news reader, 3com network tools, BBS Doors, gaming tools, scripts like perl, php, javascript.Now I'm a Senior Unix Admin.
I don't have anyone insisting I create this module their way.
I don't have to work long hours except when something breaks.
And due to my programming skills, I'm able to make use of a lot of tech to make my job easier and to keep me from having to work long hours.And I still program.
Because I like to program.
And I still like to program because I'm not doing it as a day job.
[John]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908524</id>
	<title>It sounds accurate to me...</title>
	<author>SoftwareArtist</author>
	<datestamp>1264537320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Actually, the numbers quoted in the story match up very well with my own experience.  At least in the Silicon Valley area, $60,000 would be an absurdly low salary for any programmer but someone straight out of college (and would probably be on the low side even for them).  I've never been asked to pay for my own tools, and what on earth is this "hyperspecialization" he's talking about?  The most valued programmers are those with a broad range of experience who will be able to handle whatever problems are thrown at them.
<br> <br>
Everyone's experiences are different, and maybe his description is accurate for some people.  But it's certainly not the only one, and I'm not convinced it's even a common one.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , the numbers quoted in the story match up very well with my own experience .
At least in the Silicon Valley area , $ 60,000 would be an absurdly low salary for any programmer but someone straight out of college ( and would probably be on the low side even for them ) .
I 've never been asked to pay for my own tools , and what on earth is this " hyperspecialization " he 's talking about ?
The most valued programmers are those with a broad range of experience who will be able to handle whatever problems are thrown at them .
Everyone 's experiences are different , and maybe his description is accurate for some people .
But it 's certainly not the only one , and I 'm not convinced it 's even a common one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, the numbers quoted in the story match up very well with my own experience.
At least in the Silicon Valley area, $60,000 would be an absurdly low salary for any programmer but someone straight out of college (and would probably be on the low side even for them).
I've never been asked to pay for my own tools, and what on earth is this "hyperspecialization" he's talking about?
The most valued programmers are those with a broad range of experience who will be able to handle whatever problems are thrown at them.
Everyone's experiences are different, and maybe his description is accurate for some people.
But it's certainly not the only one, and I'm not convinced it's even a common one.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907328</id>
	<title>Re:missing number</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1264532760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes!, We all know how much programmers like graphs!<br>Graph away my boy, graph away.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes ! , We all know how much programmers like graphs ! Graph away my boy , graph away .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes!, We all know how much programmers like graphs!Graph away my boy, graph away.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903472</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907832</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>linkedlinked</author>
	<datestamp>1264534860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've gotta chime in here:

We hired some Philippines (outsourced, based in the Philippines, while our main office is in San Diego) to work on a few small projects. In the 6 months they worked here, they should have had no trouble finishing the scripts we assigned them. Granted, there were some [massive, devastating] natural disasters in the Philippines during the period I'm complaining about, therefore we elected to fire them and move on, instead of pressing for a refund.

In addition to asking for more time, money and vacation, as parent suggested, in one single week -- ONE WEEK -- the following complications arose:

<p>Monday, my employee could not make it to the office due to a fever.</p><p>Tuesday, my employee showed up for work at 9am, but the power went out at noon, and the whole office was given the rest of the day off.</p><p>Wednesday, as my employee was driving to work, he got in a motorcycle accident, and did not come into the office.</p><p>Thursday, my employee worked a full 8 hour day, but did not `git commit` anything, did not email me about his status, and did not, apparently, get anything done.</p><p>Friday, my employee was lost in a flood. His manager called me to explain that, while she has no idea where my employee is right now, she's going out into the flood, personally, to search for him.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've got ta chime in here : We hired some Philippines ( outsourced , based in the Philippines , while our main office is in San Diego ) to work on a few small projects .
In the 6 months they worked here , they should have had no trouble finishing the scripts we assigned them .
Granted , there were some [ massive , devastating ] natural disasters in the Philippines during the period I 'm complaining about , therefore we elected to fire them and move on , instead of pressing for a refund .
In addition to asking for more time , money and vacation , as parent suggested , in one single week -- ONE WEEK -- the following complications arose : Monday , my employee could not make it to the office due to a fever.Tuesday , my employee showed up for work at 9am , but the power went out at noon , and the whole office was given the rest of the day off.Wednesday , as my employee was driving to work , he got in a motorcycle accident , and did not come into the office.Thursday , my employee worked a full 8 hour day , but did not ` git commit ` anything , did not email me about his status , and did not , apparently , get anything done.Friday , my employee was lost in a flood .
His manager called me to explain that , while she has no idea where my employee is right now , she 's going out into the flood , personally , to search for him .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've gotta chime in here:

We hired some Philippines (outsourced, based in the Philippines, while our main office is in San Diego) to work on a few small projects.
In the 6 months they worked here, they should have had no trouble finishing the scripts we assigned them.
Granted, there were some [massive, devastating] natural disasters in the Philippines during the period I'm complaining about, therefore we elected to fire them and move on, instead of pressing for a refund.
In addition to asking for more time, money and vacation, as parent suggested, in one single week -- ONE WEEK -- the following complications arose:

Monday, my employee could not make it to the office due to a fever.Tuesday, my employee showed up for work at 9am, but the power went out at noon, and the whole office was given the rest of the day off.Wednesday, as my employee was driving to work, he got in a motorcycle accident, and did not come into the office.Thursday, my employee worked a full 8 hour day, but did not `git commit` anything, did not email me about his status, and did not, apparently, get anything done.Friday, my employee was lost in a flood.
His manager called me to explain that, while she has no idea where my employee is right now, she's going out into the flood, personally, to search for him.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905742</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903710</id>
	<title>Salaries aren't just HANDED to you...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264519020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've worked for several types of firms, and each has their own salary schedules and what not -- but the money ultimately comes based on two things:<ol> <li>How good you are</li><li> <b>How well you negotiate</b> </li></ol><p>If you can't negotiate, your salary will always be low.  I believe this is also the reason for the stereotype of women being paid less than men.  I've seen it time and time again, the gals just won't fight as hard nor demand the top dollar from their bosses.  The same is true with younger folks.  I was no different, and I was severely underpaid for many years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've worked for several types of firms , and each has their own salary schedules and what not -- but the money ultimately comes based on two things : How good you are How well you negotiate If you ca n't negotiate , your salary will always be low .
I believe this is also the reason for the stereotype of women being paid less than men .
I 've seen it time and time again , the gals just wo n't fight as hard nor demand the top dollar from their bosses .
The same is true with younger folks .
I was no different , and I was severely underpaid for many years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've worked for several types of firms, and each has their own salary schedules and what not -- but the money ultimately comes based on two things: How good you are How well you negotiate If you can't negotiate, your salary will always be low.
I believe this is also the reason for the stereotype of women being paid less than men.
I've seen it time and time again, the gals just won't fight as hard nor demand the top dollar from their bosses.
The same is true with younger folks.
I was no different, and I was severely underpaid for many years.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903878</id>
	<title>Re:Putting a dollar figure down is problematic</title>
	<author>$1uck</author>
	<datestamp>1264519740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Um... 70k to 40k?  You got screwed.... I came from Dayton (40 miles or so north of Cincinnati)  where I was getting 40-50k  (DOD work)  got sick of "contracting"   moved to Cincinnati and watched my salary go up by 100\% with in a year and that's with leaving my entire "professional network" behind in Dayton and switching industries.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Um... 70k to 40k ?
You got screwed.... I came from Dayton ( 40 miles or so north of Cincinnati ) where I was getting 40-50k ( DOD work ) got sick of " contracting " moved to Cincinnati and watched my salary go up by 100 \ % with in a year and that 's with leaving my entire " professional network " behind in Dayton and switching industries .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Um... 70k to 40k?
You got screwed.... I came from Dayton (40 miles or so north of Cincinnati)  where I was getting 40-50k  (DOD work)  got sick of "contracting"   moved to Cincinnati and watched my salary go up by 100\% with in a year and that's with leaving my entire "professional network" behind in Dayton and switching industries.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903500</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903654</id>
	<title>my numbers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264518840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>- University degree comparable to MSc<br>- first real job<br>- 24600&euro; per year after taxes<br>- half of it goes straigt to my savings account</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>- University degree comparable to MSc- first real job- 24600    per year after taxes- half of it goes straigt to my savings account</tokentext>
<sentencetext>- University degree comparable to MSc- first real job- 24600€ per year after taxes- half of it goes straigt to my savings account</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908984</id>
	<title>Re:Resume</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264496460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Proficient in C[+]*</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Proficient in C [ + ] *</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Proficient in C[+]*</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903598</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903430</id>
	<title>First</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264517880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Post!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Post !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Post!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908854</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264539120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That is the stupidest thing I've ever seen modded insightful on slashdot... Different tools for different jobs "dude"...  You would not write a SOA platform in asm/c or c++.  Just because you don't understand the domain these languages serve, doesn't mean they need to die.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That is the stupidest thing I 've ever seen modded insightful on slashdot... Different tools for different jobs " dude " ... You would not write a SOA platform in asm/c or c + + .
Just because you do n't understand the domain these languages serve , does n't mean they need to die .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is the stupidest thing I've ever seen modded insightful on slashdot... Different tools for different jobs "dude"...  You would not write a SOA platform in asm/c or c++.
Just because you don't understand the domain these languages serve, doesn't mean they need to die.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906874</id>
	<title>Re:Listen to the suits</title>
	<author>cowscows</author>
	<datestamp>1264530900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, or maybe y'all could learn to accept the fact that the tech industry isn't actually some sort of magical wonderland where everything is new and different and special. You're not smarter than everyone else, your field is not so much more important than every other field, and that special treatment you got for a couple decades was just because computers were new and shiny for a bit. You're just one more piece of the giant machine that is civilization. The machine is just as reliant on mechanics as it is on techies.</p><p>A good mechanic can make plenty of money. A really good bricklayer can make a really good living. They're just as good at their jobs as you are at yours, many of them are just as smart as you are, and you don't deserve to be held in higher regard than them or treated differently just because you peck out code all day.</p><p>Basically, techies are starting to learn all the real world lessons that every other profession has already had to learn. You're not the flashy new kid anymore, you're just another guy trying to get by. Don't expect the world to treat you any differently.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , or maybe y'all could learn to accept the fact that the tech industry is n't actually some sort of magical wonderland where everything is new and different and special .
You 're not smarter than everyone else , your field is not so much more important than every other field , and that special treatment you got for a couple decades was just because computers were new and shiny for a bit .
You 're just one more piece of the giant machine that is civilization .
The machine is just as reliant on mechanics as it is on techies.A good mechanic can make plenty of money .
A really good bricklayer can make a really good living .
They 're just as good at their jobs as you are at yours , many of them are just as smart as you are , and you do n't deserve to be held in higher regard than them or treated differently just because you peck out code all day.Basically , techies are starting to learn all the real world lessons that every other profession has already had to learn .
You 're not the flashy new kid anymore , you 're just another guy trying to get by .
Do n't expect the world to treat you any differently .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, or maybe y'all could learn to accept the fact that the tech industry isn't actually some sort of magical wonderland where everything is new and different and special.
You're not smarter than everyone else, your field is not so much more important than every other field, and that special treatment you got for a couple decades was just because computers were new and shiny for a bit.
You're just one more piece of the giant machine that is civilization.
The machine is just as reliant on mechanics as it is on techies.A good mechanic can make plenty of money.
A really good bricklayer can make a really good living.
They're just as good at their jobs as you are at yours, many of them are just as smart as you are, and you don't deserve to be held in higher regard than them or treated differently just because you peck out code all day.Basically, techies are starting to learn all the real world lessons that every other profession has already had to learn.
You're not the flashy new kid anymore, you're just another guy trying to get by.
Don't expect the world to treat you any differently.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907948</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264535340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Rajesh also leaves for the day after 8am so all this information is given to you during the hours of 4-8am  or 11pm - 2am (the only time you and he can speak by phone), when you are decidely not in any condition to negotiate/argue.</p><p>All this is also given to you in hard-to-understand English over a phone line that sounds like he's talking from inside a tin can.</p><p>And that doesn't even get into the same kind of discussion you are having with Bing from China.</p><p>Plus, your management is insisting that all this is saving money.  Of course they are saving money because they are not paying YOU for the work you are doing project managing this between 4 and 8 am.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Rajesh also leaves for the day after 8am so all this information is given to you during the hours of 4-8am or 11pm - 2am ( the only time you and he can speak by phone ) , when you are decidely not in any condition to negotiate/argue.All this is also given to you in hard-to-understand English over a phone line that sounds like he 's talking from inside a tin can.And that does n't even get into the same kind of discussion you are having with Bing from China.Plus , your management is insisting that all this is saving money .
Of course they are saving money because they are not paying YOU for the work you are doing project managing this between 4 and 8 am .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Rajesh also leaves for the day after 8am so all this information is given to you during the hours of 4-8am  or 11pm - 2am (the only time you and he can speak by phone), when you are decidely not in any condition to negotiate/argue.All this is also given to you in hard-to-understand English over a phone line that sounds like he's talking from inside a tin can.And that doesn't even get into the same kind of discussion you are having with Bing from China.Plus, your management is insisting that all this is saving money.
Of course they are saving money because they are not paying YOU for the work you are doing project managing this between 4 and 8 am.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905742</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904072</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>Alexpkeaton1010</author>
	<datestamp>1264520460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree completely.  However citing FPGA development as an example to specialize in is pretty ambitious.  The programmers in my office make well over six figures, but they are all low level embedded programmers and have the skill and ability to help out the hardware and FPGA engineers in design.  I'd say that the key for a programmer is to become involved at the higher levels of design.  Poke your nose into the system design meetings.  Don't just let yourself be cornered into being a code monkey.  Learn as much as you can about the other aspects of design that are not directly related to programming.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree completely .
However citing FPGA development as an example to specialize in is pretty ambitious .
The programmers in my office make well over six figures , but they are all low level embedded programmers and have the skill and ability to help out the hardware and FPGA engineers in design .
I 'd say that the key for a programmer is to become involved at the higher levels of design .
Poke your nose into the system design meetings .
Do n't just let yourself be cornered into being a code monkey .
Learn as much as you can about the other aspects of design that are not directly related to programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree completely.
However citing FPGA development as an example to specialize in is pretty ambitious.
The programmers in my office make well over six figures, but they are all low level embedded programmers and have the skill and ability to help out the hardware and FPGA engineers in design.
I'd say that the key for a programmer is to become involved at the higher levels of design.
Poke your nose into the system design meetings.
Don't just let yourself be cornered into being a code monkey.
Learn as much as you can about the other aspects of design that are not directly related to programming.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903612</id>
	<title>depends on where you went to school...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264518660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>i went to the university of michigan, and majored in computer engineering with a focus on comp sci, and can tell you that I simply laughed at a company if they offered me $60,000.  I had offers ranging from $67,000 to $95,000, and had many friends who started in six figs...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>i went to the university of michigan , and majored in computer engineering with a focus on comp sci , and can tell you that I simply laughed at a company if they offered me $ 60,000 .
I had offers ranging from $ 67,000 to $ 95,000 , and had many friends who started in six figs.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i went to the university of michigan, and majored in computer engineering with a focus on comp sci, and can tell you that I simply laughed at a company if they offered me $60,000.
I had offers ranging from $67,000 to $95,000, and had many friends who started in six figs...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906692</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>BoberFett</author>
	<datestamp>1264530060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Real languages used to build real products which generate real business need to die? And this was modded insightful?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Real languages used to build real products which generate real business need to die ?
And this was modded insightful ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Real languages used to build real products which generate real business need to die?
And this was modded insightful?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905176</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264524480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What if they know Verilog extremely well and think that VHDL is an archaic leftover from three decades ago which is only still hanging on thanks to military contracts?</htmltext>
<tokenext>What if they know Verilog extremely well and think that VHDL is an archaic leftover from three decades ago which is only still hanging on thanks to military contracts ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What if they know Verilog extremely well and think that VHDL is an archaic leftover from three decades ago which is only still hanging on thanks to military contracts?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908888</id>
	<title>We are drowning in a sea of mediocre programmers</title>
	<author>elnyka</author>
	<datestamp>1264539240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> Is Programming a Lucrative Profession?</p></div><p>No, it is not. And it shouldn't be just because it's "programming"</p><p>

There is a big difference between modifying JSP/ASP/PHP pages vs low-level programming or programming and architecting highly available e-commerce back ends. There is a big difference between IT support calls where you try to help users how to press the any key vs being a Tier III support Sysadmin/Network guy who knows that kind of shit inside out.</p><p>

Just as software-related jobs run the spectrum from mundane to highly complex, so the salaries that go with them. That is reality. We got to "thanks" the dot-com brainfartopocalypse and the washing down of undergraduate CS curriculum that we still get new graduates that think they'll make as much as the under qualified prima-donas of the late 90's even if don't know the difference between a pointer and a coconut or don't know the difference between a Vector from an ArrayList in Java or who think C# is the same as C++ or who have never written anything more than a "hello world" program in assembler.</p><p>

You can tell the difference between the graduate who just went through the bare minimum course curriculum and the one who took far more programming courses and who tried to work at the college labs or tried to get internships somewhere (anywhere!) or who at the very least tried to run Linux at home and played with as many programming classes as possible and who found big-O notation fascinating.</p><p>

What type of job should each of these two should get? And what salaries should they get? There are people who graduate from MIS and CS now who should have never been able to graduate 10-15 years ago. But they graduate. Schools let them as a response of what the industry need.</p><p>

And what the IT industry <b>now</b> needs is a gamut of software professionals that can do a variety of jobs, from the mundane to the holy-crap-this-is-hard(10+1)! With more of the former than the later. The drop in salaries is just a reflection of that.</p><p>

If programmers want more moolah, then they should try to tackle harder jobs that warrant better salaries. That requires specialization of skills: be it embedded programming or system-level programming or becoming a JEE specialist/architect who knows how to write solid back-end systems, or becoming a systems engineer, or a software architect, or work your way to become a team lead, or become a solid gold SysAdmin/DBA, etc, etc.</p><p>

Being a "computer guy" stopped being a cash cow a long time ago. It can provide for a decent living (just like any other well-done trade or profession). But for those who go to school and graduate thinking they should deserve $70 just because their diplomas read "Computer" somewhere, nope. Graduate and become an specialist that can tackle hard problems. Then earn it.

The reality is that salaries are going down, and that's a justified reflection on the fact that the software industry is inundated with mediocre programmers.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is Programming a Lucrative Profession ? No , it is not .
And it should n't be just because it 's " programming " There is a big difference between modifying JSP/ASP/PHP pages vs low-level programming or programming and architecting highly available e-commerce back ends .
There is a big difference between IT support calls where you try to help users how to press the any key vs being a Tier III support Sysadmin/Network guy who knows that kind of shit inside out .
Just as software-related jobs run the spectrum from mundane to highly complex , so the salaries that go with them .
That is reality .
We got to " thanks " the dot-com brainfartopocalypse and the washing down of undergraduate CS curriculum that we still get new graduates that think they 'll make as much as the under qualified prima-donas of the late 90 's even if do n't know the difference between a pointer and a coconut or do n't know the difference between a Vector from an ArrayList in Java or who think C # is the same as C + + or who have never written anything more than a " hello world " program in assembler .
You can tell the difference between the graduate who just went through the bare minimum course curriculum and the one who took far more programming courses and who tried to work at the college labs or tried to get internships somewhere ( anywhere !
) or who at the very least tried to run Linux at home and played with as many programming classes as possible and who found big-O notation fascinating .
What type of job should each of these two should get ?
And what salaries should they get ?
There are people who graduate from MIS and CS now who should have never been able to graduate 10-15 years ago .
But they graduate .
Schools let them as a response of what the industry need .
And what the IT industry now needs is a gamut of software professionals that can do a variety of jobs , from the mundane to the holy-crap-this-is-hard ( 10 + 1 ) !
With more of the former than the later .
The drop in salaries is just a reflection of that .
If programmers want more moolah , then they should try to tackle harder jobs that warrant better salaries .
That requires specialization of skills : be it embedded programming or system-level programming or becoming a JEE specialist/architect who knows how to write solid back-end systems , or becoming a systems engineer , or a software architect , or work your way to become a team lead , or become a solid gold SysAdmin/DBA , etc , etc .
Being a " computer guy " stopped being a cash cow a long time ago .
It can provide for a decent living ( just like any other well-done trade or profession ) .
But for those who go to school and graduate thinking they should deserve $ 70 just because their diplomas read " Computer " somewhere , nope .
Graduate and become an specialist that can tackle hard problems .
Then earn it .
The reality is that salaries are going down , and that 's a justified reflection on the fact that the software industry is inundated with mediocre programmers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Is Programming a Lucrative Profession?No, it is not.
And it shouldn't be just because it's "programming"

There is a big difference between modifying JSP/ASP/PHP pages vs low-level programming or programming and architecting highly available e-commerce back ends.
There is a big difference between IT support calls where you try to help users how to press the any key vs being a Tier III support Sysadmin/Network guy who knows that kind of shit inside out.
Just as software-related jobs run the spectrum from mundane to highly complex, so the salaries that go with them.
That is reality.
We got to "thanks" the dot-com brainfartopocalypse and the washing down of undergraduate CS curriculum that we still get new graduates that think they'll make as much as the under qualified prima-donas of the late 90's even if don't know the difference between a pointer and a coconut or don't know the difference between a Vector from an ArrayList in Java or who think C# is the same as C++ or who have never written anything more than a "hello world" program in assembler.
You can tell the difference between the graduate who just went through the bare minimum course curriculum and the one who took far more programming courses and who tried to work at the college labs or tried to get internships somewhere (anywhere!
) or who at the very least tried to run Linux at home and played with as many programming classes as possible and who found big-O notation fascinating.
What type of job should each of these two should get?
And what salaries should they get?
There are people who graduate from MIS and CS now who should have never been able to graduate 10-15 years ago.
But they graduate.
Schools let them as a response of what the industry need.
And what the IT industry now needs is a gamut of software professionals that can do a variety of jobs, from the mundane to the holy-crap-this-is-hard(10+1)!
With more of the former than the later.
The drop in salaries is just a reflection of that.
If programmers want more moolah, then they should try to tackle harder jobs that warrant better salaries.
That requires specialization of skills: be it embedded programming or system-level programming or becoming a JEE specialist/architect who knows how to write solid back-end systems, or becoming a systems engineer, or a software architect, or work your way to become a team lead, or become a solid gold SysAdmin/DBA, etc, etc.
Being a "computer guy" stopped being a cash cow a long time ago.
It can provide for a decent living (just like any other well-done trade or profession).
But for those who go to school and graduate thinking they should deserve $70 just because their diplomas read "Computer" somewhere, nope.
Graduate and become an specialist that can tackle hard problems.
Then earn it.
The reality is that salaries are going down, and that's a justified reflection on the fact that the software industry is inundated with mediocre programmers.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30907392</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264533060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>So, tell me: when you are writing a device writer and need to ensure strict order of hardware register access, and then ensure that all register updates occur before any other code executes, WHAT pray tell, would YOU use? The ONLY languages today that can provide such guarantees are C++ (C++0X), and assembly.</htmltext>
<tokenext>So , tell me : when you are writing a device writer and need to ensure strict order of hardware register access , and then ensure that all register updates occur before any other code executes , WHAT pray tell , would YOU use ?
The ONLY languages today that can provide such guarantees are C + + ( C + + 0X ) , and assembly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So, tell me: when you are writing a device writer and need to ensure strict order of hardware register access, and then ensure that all register updates occur before any other code executes, WHAT pray tell, would YOU use?
The ONLY languages today that can provide such guarantees are C++ (C++0X), and assembly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905668</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908264</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>Khelder</author>
	<datestamp>1264536360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It may be different if you're developing at the level of VHDL, so the following may not apply.</p><p>But I'm glad you don't have anything to do with hiring at my software company. Knowing more programming languages, especially from different paradigms, makes you a better programmer in all of them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It may be different if you 're developing at the level of VHDL , so the following may not apply.But I 'm glad you do n't have anything to do with hiring at my software company .
Knowing more programming languages , especially from different paradigms , makes you a better programmer in all of them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It may be different if you're developing at the level of VHDL, so the following may not apply.But I'm glad you don't have anything to do with hiring at my software company.
Knowing more programming languages, especially from different paradigms, makes you a better programmer in all of them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908168</id>
	<title>Re:Salary</title>
	<author>Herkum01</author>
	<datestamp>1264536060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Perl is a tough market, it only has a few good job markets and relatively few positions available compared to Java or<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET or c# stuff.  I looked for positions on <a href="http://jobs.perl.org/" title="perl.org">http://jobs.perl.org/</a> [perl.org] and <a href="http://www.dice.com./" title="www.dice.com">http://www.dice.com./</a> [www.dice.com]  Dice has more Perl listings but I have gotten responses from both.</p><p>Like I said, Perl positions are spotty, I moved to Pittsburgh for 6 months, there was only one company advertising for one Perl position, that was it.  Nothing else even close.  Good job markets are in LA, San Fransico, NYC and after that, it becomes slim pickings with a position popping up every once in a while in a location.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Perl is a tough market , it only has a few good job markets and relatively few positions available compared to Java or .NET or c # stuff .
I looked for positions on http : //jobs.perl.org/ [ perl.org ] and http : //www.dice.com./ [ www.dice.com ] Dice has more Perl listings but I have gotten responses from both.Like I said , Perl positions are spotty , I moved to Pittsburgh for 6 months , there was only one company advertising for one Perl position , that was it .
Nothing else even close .
Good job markets are in LA , San Fransico , NYC and after that , it becomes slim pickings with a position popping up every once in a while in a location .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perl is a tough market, it only has a few good job markets and relatively few positions available compared to Java or .NET or c# stuff.
I looked for positions on http://jobs.perl.org/ [perl.org] and http://www.dice.com./ [www.dice.com]  Dice has more Perl listings but I have gotten responses from both.Like I said, Perl positions are spotty, I moved to Pittsburgh for 6 months, there was only one company advertising for one Perl position, that was it.
Nothing else even close.
Good job markets are in LA, San Fransico, NYC and after that, it becomes slim pickings with a position popping up every once in a while in a location.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909194</id>
	<title>Re:I don't have a degree...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264497480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't have a degree and I make $300k+</p><p>I was in the second year of my degree when I started earning 100k+ in my part time position and never went back.  I'm now 27 and have saved over 1 1/2 million, own my own house and own two retail shopping plaza's that each generate over 100k / year in net income.</p><p>How?  Because I made the decision to ditch my degree and in lieu of regular raises negotiated a profit sharing structure with my employer.  Should they chose to let me go they will owe me two years as severance (i.e $600K).  It's important to either go somewhere that offers you options or profit sharing. Somewhere you think will do well in the long term.  If you want to make anything more than a simple wage you have be one of the top 10 percent and then demand to be compensated as such.  Now, 90\% of the people here won't get it because, well, to be honest they don't deserve that kind of compensation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't have a degree and I make $ 300k + I was in the second year of my degree when I started earning 100k + in my part time position and never went back .
I 'm now 27 and have saved over 1 1/2 million , own my own house and own two retail shopping plaza 's that each generate over 100k / year in net income.How ?
Because I made the decision to ditch my degree and in lieu of regular raises negotiated a profit sharing structure with my employer .
Should they chose to let me go they will owe me two years as severance ( i.e $ 600K ) .
It 's important to either go somewhere that offers you options or profit sharing .
Somewhere you think will do well in the long term .
If you want to make anything more than a simple wage you have be one of the top 10 percent and then demand to be compensated as such .
Now , 90 \ % of the people here wo n't get it because , well , to be honest they do n't deserve that kind of compensation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't have a degree and I make $300k+I was in the second year of my degree when I started earning 100k+ in my part time position and never went back.
I'm now 27 and have saved over 1 1/2 million, own my own house and own two retail shopping plaza's that each generate over 100k / year in net income.How?
Because I made the decision to ditch my degree and in lieu of regular raises negotiated a profit sharing structure with my employer.
Should they chose to let me go they will owe me two years as severance (i.e $600K).
It's important to either go somewhere that offers you options or profit sharing.
Somewhere you think will do well in the long term.
If you want to make anything more than a simple wage you have be one of the top 10 percent and then demand to be compensated as such.
Now, 90\% of the people here won't get it because, well, to be honest they don't deserve that kind of compensation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30911986</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>boppacesagain08</author>
	<datestamp>1264511640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>On the other hand, do you really want to have your tonsils removed by someone who has some strange urge to remove other people's tonsils?</htmltext>
<tokenext>On the other hand , do you really want to have your tonsils removed by someone who has some strange urge to remove other people 's tonsils ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On the other hand, do you really want to have your tonsils removed by someone who has some strange urge to remove other people's tonsils?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909258</id>
	<title>Work for a tech company</title>
	<author>Cheefachi</author>
	<datestamp>1264497720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm sure I am in the minority, but I am proud of the fact that I got rich as a programmer and not by being a suit. How did I achieve that? I co-founded a small software company that was acquired by a large tech company. True we didn't pay ourselves much until we started making some good revenue, and it took us 7 years before we were acquired, but ultimately my ownership stake in the company got me more money in the end than if I had been working as an investment banker right out of college. I didn't turn into a manager or director or some suit who forgot his developer roots, I remained pretty much an architect/developer the whole time. I am really proud of that achievement.<br><br>But anyway, my salary at the acquiring company was quite good ($135k with bonus, stock, etc.). I checked on glassdoor.com and it looks to be comparable to other developers at the company. I agree with some previous posters that if you want to be treated more than just a code monkey, work for a company that understands what developers bring to the table, that programming is very much a creative art and not at all like a bricklayer. If you work for a company whose core business is far away from tech (off the top of my head I am thinking a manufacturer or an insurance company, etc.) you will probably not be thought of as key and so I would assume your salary would reflect that. Check out salaries for software developers at companies like Cisco, Apple, Google, and Oracle and you will see they are pretty good.<br><br>Now you do have to consider the location. These companies are all based in expensive areas (Silicon Valley, east coast areas like NY and Boston) so their salaries will have to be higher just because of that. But still, overall I do believe that tech companies will give better salaries for developers than other companies.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sure I am in the minority , but I am proud of the fact that I got rich as a programmer and not by being a suit .
How did I achieve that ?
I co-founded a small software company that was acquired by a large tech company .
True we did n't pay ourselves much until we started making some good revenue , and it took us 7 years before we were acquired , but ultimately my ownership stake in the company got me more money in the end than if I had been working as an investment banker right out of college .
I did n't turn into a manager or director or some suit who forgot his developer roots , I remained pretty much an architect/developer the whole time .
I am really proud of that achievement.But anyway , my salary at the acquiring company was quite good ( $ 135k with bonus , stock , etc. ) .
I checked on glassdoor.com and it looks to be comparable to other developers at the company .
I agree with some previous posters that if you want to be treated more than just a code monkey , work for a company that understands what developers bring to the table , that programming is very much a creative art and not at all like a bricklayer .
If you work for a company whose core business is far away from tech ( off the top of my head I am thinking a manufacturer or an insurance company , etc .
) you will probably not be thought of as key and so I would assume your salary would reflect that .
Check out salaries for software developers at companies like Cisco , Apple , Google , and Oracle and you will see they are pretty good.Now you do have to consider the location .
These companies are all based in expensive areas ( Silicon Valley , east coast areas like NY and Boston ) so their salaries will have to be higher just because of that .
But still , overall I do believe that tech companies will give better salaries for developers than other companies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sure I am in the minority, but I am proud of the fact that I got rich as a programmer and not by being a suit.
How did I achieve that?
I co-founded a small software company that was acquired by a large tech company.
True we didn't pay ourselves much until we started making some good revenue, and it took us 7 years before we were acquired, but ultimately my ownership stake in the company got me more money in the end than if I had been working as an investment banker right out of college.
I didn't turn into a manager or director or some suit who forgot his developer roots, I remained pretty much an architect/developer the whole time.
I am really proud of that achievement.But anyway, my salary at the acquiring company was quite good ($135k with bonus, stock, etc.).
I checked on glassdoor.com and it looks to be comparable to other developers at the company.
I agree with some previous posters that if you want to be treated more than just a code monkey, work for a company that understands what developers bring to the table, that programming is very much a creative art and not at all like a bricklayer.
If you work for a company whose core business is far away from tech (off the top of my head I am thinking a manufacturer or an insurance company, etc.
) you will probably not be thought of as key and so I would assume your salary would reflect that.
Check out salaries for software developers at companies like Cisco, Apple, Google, and Oracle and you will see they are pretty good.Now you do have to consider the location.
These companies are all based in expensive areas (Silicon Valley, east coast areas like NY and Boston) so their salaries will have to be higher just because of that.
But still, overall I do believe that tech companies will give better salaries for developers than other companies.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905758</id>
	<title>Re:For Engineers maybe</title>
	<author>Gilmoure</author>
	<datestamp>1264526520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What's the exchange rate for Tyre Dollars?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What 's the exchange rate for Tyre Dollars ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What's the exchange rate for Tyre Dollars?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904552</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904104</id>
	<title>Re:Putting a dollar figure down is problematic</title>
	<author>SQLGuru</author>
	<datestamp>1264520580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I started at $35k back in 1995 in the New Orleans area.  I think a big part of it is the type of company you start with.  These days, the bigger companies are sending the jobs overseas -- they were the ones paying on the higher end of that scale.  Now, they only want to pay for the thought leaders (architects, lead developers, etc.) and ship the "code monkey" type of jobs an entry level person would get to cheaper resources in other countries.  That means that entry level work is now going to small to mid-size companies.  These places aren't as cash rich and can't afford to pay the CEO's $100k/year much less developers, so the starting salaries get pushed downward.</p><p>There's money there, but you'll have to chase it.  I regularly supplement my salary by doing small project work for small companies that wouldn't normally hire a full-time programmer (at best, they'd have one I/T guy who is really on-site tech support).  I can make $5k to $10k a year working about 10 to 20 hours per month.  Someone doing that on a full-time basis could make closer to $80k.  Benefits would be more expensive (mine come from my base salary and the company I work for gets decent rates for us employees), but it's got to be better than $40k even after you take those costs out.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I started at $ 35k back in 1995 in the New Orleans area .
I think a big part of it is the type of company you start with .
These days , the bigger companies are sending the jobs overseas -- they were the ones paying on the higher end of that scale .
Now , they only want to pay for the thought leaders ( architects , lead developers , etc .
) and ship the " code monkey " type of jobs an entry level person would get to cheaper resources in other countries .
That means that entry level work is now going to small to mid-size companies .
These places are n't as cash rich and ca n't afford to pay the CEO 's $ 100k/year much less developers , so the starting salaries get pushed downward.There 's money there , but you 'll have to chase it .
I regularly supplement my salary by doing small project work for small companies that would n't normally hire a full-time programmer ( at best , they 'd have one I/T guy who is really on-site tech support ) .
I can make $ 5k to $ 10k a year working about 10 to 20 hours per month .
Someone doing that on a full-time basis could make closer to $ 80k .
Benefits would be more expensive ( mine come from my base salary and the company I work for gets decent rates for us employees ) , but it 's got to be better than $ 40k even after you take those costs out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started at $35k back in 1995 in the New Orleans area.
I think a big part of it is the type of company you start with.
These days, the bigger companies are sending the jobs overseas -- they were the ones paying on the higher end of that scale.
Now, they only want to pay for the thought leaders (architects, lead developers, etc.
) and ship the "code monkey" type of jobs an entry level person would get to cheaper resources in other countries.
That means that entry level work is now going to small to mid-size companies.
These places aren't as cash rich and can't afford to pay the CEO's $100k/year much less developers, so the starting salaries get pushed downward.There's money there, but you'll have to chase it.
I regularly supplement my salary by doing small project work for small companies that wouldn't normally hire a full-time programmer (at best, they'd have one I/T guy who is really on-site tech support).
I can make $5k to $10k a year working about 10 to 20 hours per month.
Someone doing that on a full-time basis could make closer to $80k.
Benefits would be more expensive (mine come from my base salary and the company I work for gets decent rates for us employees), but it's got to be better than $40k even after you take those costs out.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903500</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30911386</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>DrCode</author>
	<datestamp>1264507620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You could be missing out on some very talented emacs users!  And just VHDL?  Not Verilog?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You could be missing out on some very talented emacs users !
And just VHDL ?
Not Verilog ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You could be missing out on some very talented emacs users!
And just VHDL?
Not Verilog?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905872</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1264526940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Because in C, having experience with Java usually means that you write more modular and reusable code.  I've not done anything beyond the toy level in VHDL, but I'd imagine it transfers there too.  People who only know low-level languages tend to write code that lacks modularity and is difficult to reuse.  People who only know high-level languages tend to write inefficient code.  You may be an exception, and you may have ways in your company of only hiring other people who are exceptions, but assuming other experience is completely unrelated is a mistake.  Especially in programming, knowing half a dozen or more different languages (i.e. not all dialects of Algol) generally makes you a better programmer even if you spend 100\% of your time working in one of them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Because in C , having experience with Java usually means that you write more modular and reusable code .
I 've not done anything beyond the toy level in VHDL , but I 'd imagine it transfers there too .
People who only know low-level languages tend to write code that lacks modularity and is difficult to reuse .
People who only know high-level languages tend to write inefficient code .
You may be an exception , and you may have ways in your company of only hiring other people who are exceptions , but assuming other experience is completely unrelated is a mistake .
Especially in programming , knowing half a dozen or more different languages ( i.e .
not all dialects of Algol ) generally makes you a better programmer even if you spend 100 \ % of your time working in one of them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because in C, having experience with Java usually means that you write more modular and reusable code.
I've not done anything beyond the toy level in VHDL, but I'd imagine it transfers there too.
People who only know low-level languages tend to write code that lacks modularity and is difficult to reuse.
People who only know high-level languages tend to write inefficient code.
You may be an exception, and you may have ways in your company of only hiring other people who are exceptions, but assuming other experience is completely unrelated is a mistake.
Especially in programming, knowing half a dozen or more different languages (i.e.
not all dialects of Algol) generally makes you a better programmer even if you spend 100\% of your time working in one of them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904282</id>
	<title>Its a carrot take it as that and make it your goal</title>
	<author>Jetrel</author>
	<datestamp>1264521180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I hate when colleges and high schools release ranges like this. You have to look at them for what they are motivational carrots to get you to go into a field. What you need to take from this is that, it is possible to make these ranges but you need to excel at what you majored in. Then show initiative and that you are adept at the skills you are utilizing in these fields.</p><p>Companies and hiring managers see their applicants as a means to an end. They are there to make money and if you cannot perform or don&rsquo;t have the skills to bring a value to them then they will see that and pay you accordingly. But if you are a superstar and bring value to the organization then they will also reward that.</p><p>Fresh out of college unless you are extremely competent and have the self confidence to sell yourself in a professional manner then you will to take what you can get. Now in this economy things are a good bit different, I personally know some great IT persons and programmer that are out of work now that have years of experience.</p><p>I owned and operated a recruiting firm for several years and know firsthand how the hiring process works for many companies. They are typically trying to get you for the lowest price possible and keep you happy.  Salaries are much more complex than just what you earn you have to integrate benefits and insurance into your salary as well. So keep that in mind when taking a job.</p><p>Also when in college try you best to get an internships and do your best at them. That&rsquo;s one of the best ways to get hired onto a company and they already know what you can do so typically they will pay you accordingly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I hate when colleges and high schools release ranges like this .
You have to look at them for what they are motivational carrots to get you to go into a field .
What you need to take from this is that , it is possible to make these ranges but you need to excel at what you majored in .
Then show initiative and that you are adept at the skills you are utilizing in these fields.Companies and hiring managers see their applicants as a means to an end .
They are there to make money and if you can not perform or don    t have the skills to bring a value to them then they will see that and pay you accordingly .
But if you are a superstar and bring value to the organization then they will also reward that.Fresh out of college unless you are extremely competent and have the self confidence to sell yourself in a professional manner then you will to take what you can get .
Now in this economy things are a good bit different , I personally know some great IT persons and programmer that are out of work now that have years of experience.I owned and operated a recruiting firm for several years and know firsthand how the hiring process works for many companies .
They are typically trying to get you for the lowest price possible and keep you happy .
Salaries are much more complex than just what you earn you have to integrate benefits and insurance into your salary as well .
So keep that in mind when taking a job.Also when in college try you best to get an internships and do your best at them .
That    s one of the best ways to get hired onto a company and they already know what you can do so typically they will pay you accordingly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hate when colleges and high schools release ranges like this.
You have to look at them for what they are motivational carrots to get you to go into a field.
What you need to take from this is that, it is possible to make these ranges but you need to excel at what you majored in.
Then show initiative and that you are adept at the skills you are utilizing in these fields.Companies and hiring managers see their applicants as a means to an end.
They are there to make money and if you cannot perform or don’t have the skills to bring a value to them then they will see that and pay you accordingly.
But if you are a superstar and bring value to the organization then they will also reward that.Fresh out of college unless you are extremely competent and have the self confidence to sell yourself in a professional manner then you will to take what you can get.
Now in this economy things are a good bit different, I personally know some great IT persons and programmer that are out of work now that have years of experience.I owned and operated a recruiting firm for several years and know firsthand how the hiring process works for many companies.
They are typically trying to get you for the lowest price possible and keep you happy.
Salaries are much more complex than just what you earn you have to integrate benefits and insurance into your salary as well.
So keep that in mind when taking a job.Also when in college try you best to get an internships and do your best at them.
That’s one of the best ways to get hired onto a company and they already know what you can do so typically they will pay you accordingly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908846</id>
	<title>Re:I don't have a degree...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264539060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wait tell you get laid-off,  unless you exceptional,  which many techie's get in their head when they are young,  get that degree,  I was @ Cisco they decided to lay people of by education and years with the company,  and when your part of the herd of laid-off employee's looking for a programming job have fun...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wait tell you get laid-off , unless you exceptional , which many techie 's get in their head when they are young , get that degree , I was @ Cisco they decided to lay people of by education and years with the company , and when your part of the herd of laid-off employee 's looking for a programming job have fun.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wait tell you get laid-off,  unless you exceptional,  which many techie's get in their head when they are young,  get that degree,  I was @ Cisco they decided to lay people of by education and years with the company,  and when your part of the herd of laid-off employee's looking for a programming job have fun...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906866</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>wurp</author>
	<datestamp>1264530840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Math nit-pick:</p><p>If the *median* programmer starts at $60k, then half of them make less than that.</p><p>If the *average* programmer starting salary is $60k, it could mean almost all of them make $65k and some tiny fraction make $10k, for example.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Math nit-pick : If the * median * programmer starts at $ 60k , then half of them make less than that.If the * average * programmer starting salary is $ 60k , it could mean almost all of them make $ 65k and some tiny fraction make $ 10k , for example .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Math nit-pick:If the *median* programmer starts at $60k, then half of them make less than that.If the *average* programmer starting salary is $60k, it could mean almost all of them make $65k and some tiny fraction make $10k, for example.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906186</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908100</id>
	<title>Engineering is lucrative, code pigging not so much</title>
	<author>Sarusa</author>
	<datestamp>1264535820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>tl;dr version - your worth is your ability to solve problems.</p><p>There a huge specrum we just lump together under the term 'programmer'.</p><p>* Programmer: coder who churns out mostly boilerplate code in the depths of a team. You're basically given 'I need this' and crank out a specific solution. Turn design into code. The lowest form of this is the code pig - you're stuck in your little pen with no context, turning garbage into sludge. The term 'code pig,' while demeaning, is one I've heard used in the industry - one specific example was people working on the Windows Vista team.<br>* Engineer: someone who you can give a problem, analyzes it in the context of the complete system, comes up with an optimal solution in light of the tradeoffs, delivers a working solution. Turns problems into solutions. Engineers usually have more interest in continuing education than the code pig - whatever solves the problem easier and faster.</p><p>There are all sorts of shades of this - for instance the skilled IT guy who's not even a 'programmer'  but ends up doing a lot of scripting can be effectively doing engineering. And you get people trying to act as engineers who simply should not be. Or someone who's stuck in a code pig job can be a great engineer.</p><p>But in general if you can be easily replaced you're not worth a lot - especially if your boss thinks your job can be outsourced to India and he can get the same result cheaper (even if he's wrong). If you can consistently solve problems you're worth a lot.</p><p>One good way for programmers to make lots of money: specialization. If you're good at COBOL and huge companies desperately need people to maintain or upgrade their millions of lines of outdated but nominally functioning mission critical code, well then you're valuable. If you have the rare skills and engineering skills then you're extra valuable. Another good way to make money if you have little tech skill is contracting. Get in, screw things up, on to the next contract. I am not saying that all contractors are like this - just a subset I've encountered. In this case you're trading your contacts and people skills to make up for lack of technical talent, and it takes a non-trivial amount of con man talent.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>tl ; dr version - your worth is your ability to solve problems.There a huge specrum we just lump together under the term 'programmer' .
* Programmer : coder who churns out mostly boilerplate code in the depths of a team .
You 're basically given 'I need this ' and crank out a specific solution .
Turn design into code .
The lowest form of this is the code pig - you 're stuck in your little pen with no context , turning garbage into sludge .
The term 'code pig, ' while demeaning , is one I 've heard used in the industry - one specific example was people working on the Windows Vista team .
* Engineer : someone who you can give a problem , analyzes it in the context of the complete system , comes up with an optimal solution in light of the tradeoffs , delivers a working solution .
Turns problems into solutions .
Engineers usually have more interest in continuing education than the code pig - whatever solves the problem easier and faster.There are all sorts of shades of this - for instance the skilled IT guy who 's not even a 'programmer ' but ends up doing a lot of scripting can be effectively doing engineering .
And you get people trying to act as engineers who simply should not be .
Or someone who 's stuck in a code pig job can be a great engineer.But in general if you can be easily replaced you 're not worth a lot - especially if your boss thinks your job can be outsourced to India and he can get the same result cheaper ( even if he 's wrong ) .
If you can consistently solve problems you 're worth a lot.One good way for programmers to make lots of money : specialization .
If you 're good at COBOL and huge companies desperately need people to maintain or upgrade their millions of lines of outdated but nominally functioning mission critical code , well then you 're valuable .
If you have the rare skills and engineering skills then you 're extra valuable .
Another good way to make money if you have little tech skill is contracting .
Get in , screw things up , on to the next contract .
I am not saying that all contractors are like this - just a subset I 've encountered .
In this case you 're trading your contacts and people skills to make up for lack of technical talent , and it takes a non-trivial amount of con man talent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>tl;dr version - your worth is your ability to solve problems.There a huge specrum we just lump together under the term 'programmer'.
* Programmer: coder who churns out mostly boilerplate code in the depths of a team.
You're basically given 'I need this' and crank out a specific solution.
Turn design into code.
The lowest form of this is the code pig - you're stuck in your little pen with no context, turning garbage into sludge.
The term 'code pig,' while demeaning, is one I've heard used in the industry - one specific example was people working on the Windows Vista team.
* Engineer: someone who you can give a problem, analyzes it in the context of the complete system, comes up with an optimal solution in light of the tradeoffs, delivers a working solution.
Turns problems into solutions.
Engineers usually have more interest in continuing education than the code pig - whatever solves the problem easier and faster.There are all sorts of shades of this - for instance the skilled IT guy who's not even a 'programmer'  but ends up doing a lot of scripting can be effectively doing engineering.
And you get people trying to act as engineers who simply should not be.
Or someone who's stuck in a code pig job can be a great engineer.But in general if you can be easily replaced you're not worth a lot - especially if your boss thinks your job can be outsourced to India and he can get the same result cheaper (even if he's wrong).
If you can consistently solve problems you're worth a lot.One good way for programmers to make lots of money: specialization.
If you're good at COBOL and huge companies desperately need people to maintain or upgrade their millions of lines of outdated but nominally functioning mission critical code, well then you're valuable.
If you have the rare skills and engineering skills then you're extra valuable.
Another good way to make money if you have little tech skill is contracting.
Get in, screw things up, on to the next contract.
I am not saying that all contractors are like this - just a subset I've encountered.
In this case you're trading your contacts and people skills to make up for lack of technical talent, and it takes a non-trivial amount of con man talent.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903596</id>
	<title>The really sad thing is...</title>
	<author>Just Brew It!</author>
	<datestamp>1264518600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>...unless you've moved into management, you're probably not making much more than those new graduates are, even if you have years of experience.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...unless you 've moved into management , you 're probably not making much more than those new graduates are , even if you have years of experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...unless you've moved into management, you're probably not making much more than those new graduates are, even if you have years of experience.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908222</id>
	<title>Re:If you're in it for the money, do something els</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264536240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Stupidity is the only reason to choose computer programming as a career.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Stupidity is the only reason to choose computer programming as a career .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stupidity is the only reason to choose computer programming as a career.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903900</id>
	<title>Supply and demand, welcome to capitalism</title>
	<author>davidwr</author>
	<datestamp>1264519860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Anyone with eyes to see knew the relatively high pay of the last century couldn't last in the face of easy off-shoring and other factors.</p><p>We should be thankful for what we had, not complaining about more rational (from a capitalistic perspective) compensation.</p><p>On the flip side, most people who make okay-or-better programmers have the brains and basic skills to do a variety of careers with maybe a year or two or less of additional training, and most of us hopefully know it's not wise to put all your career eggs in one basket.</p><p>Also, some jobs such as most of those in the defense industry will remain in-country.</p><p>So, yes, there may be fewer newly-minted programmers in the Western world in the future, fewer domestic jobs available, and lower pay for the remaining jobs, but it won't be the total disaster it was for say, the steel or textile industries.</p><p>From an overall global economic health perspective, I see this as a good thing, even if it hurts me personally and Western economies in general.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Anyone with eyes to see knew the relatively high pay of the last century could n't last in the face of easy off-shoring and other factors.We should be thankful for what we had , not complaining about more rational ( from a capitalistic perspective ) compensation.On the flip side , most people who make okay-or-better programmers have the brains and basic skills to do a variety of careers with maybe a year or two or less of additional training , and most of us hopefully know it 's not wise to put all your career eggs in one basket.Also , some jobs such as most of those in the defense industry will remain in-country.So , yes , there may be fewer newly-minted programmers in the Western world in the future , fewer domestic jobs available , and lower pay for the remaining jobs , but it wo n't be the total disaster it was for say , the steel or textile industries.From an overall global economic health perspective , I see this as a good thing , even if it hurts me personally and Western economies in general .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anyone with eyes to see knew the relatively high pay of the last century couldn't last in the face of easy off-shoring and other factors.We should be thankful for what we had, not complaining about more rational (from a capitalistic perspective) compensation.On the flip side, most people who make okay-or-better programmers have the brains and basic skills to do a variety of careers with maybe a year or two or less of additional training, and most of us hopefully know it's not wise to put all your career eggs in one basket.Also, some jobs such as most of those in the defense industry will remain in-country.So, yes, there may be fewer newly-minted programmers in the Western world in the future, fewer domestic jobs available, and lower pay for the remaining jobs, but it won't be the total disaster it was for say, the steel or textile industries.From an overall global economic health perspective, I see this as a good thing, even if it hurts me personally and Western economies in general.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905858</id>
	<title>Re:We are becoming more disposable</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264526880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>people start working for the economy instead of the other way around</i> </p><p>when was it ever the other way around?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>people start working for the economy instead of the other way around when was it ever the other way around ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>people start working for the economy instead of the other way around when was it ever the other way around?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903728</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905538</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities</title>
	<author>scamper\_22</author>
	<datestamp>1264525800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't want to harp on this again... but this is why certain jobs become professions.<br>That said, the situation has kindof self-corrected.  New grads aren't exactly flocking into the field.  Indian salaries are now maybe 1/2-1/3 of what we can earn... not a tenth.</p><p>The problem that we all face is the rest of the world has no idea what we do.  What it takes to do what we do.<br>Just like I have no idea what it takes to be a lawyer.  Oh you wrote a 3 page letter... jesus... I could do that in an hour.  Why am I paying you $1500 bucks?</p><p>Actually the legal field is a nice comparison.<br>Consider a programming language akin to any other language like English.<br>You can write English... you should be able to draft a legal document.<br>You can write c#, you should be able to write this program.</p><p>This is how the rest of the world views things.<br>I've literally had people I know ask if I could write a program to compete with Google.</p><p>And hence, the lawyers formed a professional organization.  This is both and good and bad.  But what it does do is keep quality up... make sure things are done properly... make sure only qualified people do things... make sure only trained people work on things... and of course... increase pay.</p><p>It's not the programming language that is important.  It is the domain specific knowledge that is important.<br>It is not that your lawyer knows English.  It is that he knows the fine details of corporate or patent law.<br>It is not that your programmer knows C#.  It is that he knows the fine details of web services or game modelling...</p><p>Yes, a lawyer should be able to write really good English.  And a programmer must know the details of his particular language, but in the end, the domain knowledge is key.</p><p>One of the biggest problems was when really talented people went into the field, they were able to switch between domains really fast.  You could probably throw these same people into medicine or law, and they'd pick up just as fast.  But these are not the people now entering the field.  Companies are finding out just how valuable a trained and professional engineer/programmer is.</p><p>I've gotten more calls in the past 2 years than I have in 'good times'.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't want to harp on this again... but this is why certain jobs become professions.That said , the situation has kindof self-corrected .
New grads are n't exactly flocking into the field .
Indian salaries are now maybe 1/2-1/3 of what we can earn... not a tenth.The problem that we all face is the rest of the world has no idea what we do .
What it takes to do what we do.Just like I have no idea what it takes to be a lawyer .
Oh you wrote a 3 page letter... jesus... I could do that in an hour .
Why am I paying you $ 1500 bucks ? Actually the legal field is a nice comparison.Consider a programming language akin to any other language like English.You can write English... you should be able to draft a legal document.You can write c # , you should be able to write this program.This is how the rest of the world views things.I 've literally had people I know ask if I could write a program to compete with Google.And hence , the lawyers formed a professional organization .
This is both and good and bad .
But what it does do is keep quality up... make sure things are done properly... make sure only qualified people do things... make sure only trained people work on things... and of course... increase pay.It 's not the programming language that is important .
It is the domain specific knowledge that is important.It is not that your lawyer knows English .
It is that he knows the fine details of corporate or patent law.It is not that your programmer knows C # .
It is that he knows the fine details of web services or game modelling...Yes , a lawyer should be able to write really good English .
And a programmer must know the details of his particular language , but in the end , the domain knowledge is key.One of the biggest problems was when really talented people went into the field , they were able to switch between domains really fast .
You could probably throw these same people into medicine or law , and they 'd pick up just as fast .
But these are not the people now entering the field .
Companies are finding out just how valuable a trained and professional engineer/programmer is.I 've gotten more calls in the past 2 years than I have in 'good times' .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't want to harp on this again... but this is why certain jobs become professions.That said, the situation has kindof self-corrected.
New grads aren't exactly flocking into the field.
Indian salaries are now maybe 1/2-1/3 of what we can earn... not a tenth.The problem that we all face is the rest of the world has no idea what we do.
What it takes to do what we do.Just like I have no idea what it takes to be a lawyer.
Oh you wrote a 3 page letter... jesus... I could do that in an hour.
Why am I paying you $1500 bucks?Actually the legal field is a nice comparison.Consider a programming language akin to any other language like English.You can write English... you should be able to draft a legal document.You can write c#, you should be able to write this program.This is how the rest of the world views things.I've literally had people I know ask if I could write a program to compete with Google.And hence, the lawyers formed a professional organization.
This is both and good and bad.
But what it does do is keep quality up... make sure things are done properly... make sure only qualified people do things... make sure only trained people work on things... and of course... increase pay.It's not the programming language that is important.
It is the domain specific knowledge that is important.It is not that your lawyer knows English.
It is that he knows the fine details of corporate or patent law.It is not that your programmer knows C#.
It is that he knows the fine details of web services or game modelling...Yes, a lawyer should be able to write really good English.
And a programmer must know the details of his particular language, but in the end, the domain knowledge is key.One of the biggest problems was when really talented people went into the field, they were able to switch between domains really fast.
You could probably throw these same people into medicine or law, and they'd pick up just as fast.
But these are not the people now entering the field.
Companies are finding out just how valuable a trained and professional engineer/programmer is.I've gotten more calls in the past 2 years than I have in 'good times'.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908788</id>
	<title>Re:Listen to the suits</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264538760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>3. Start your own company, and watch out that you don't completely become a suit.</p></div><p>The suits are earning a lot more money and working less, despite the fact that they're often not qualified to even understand exactly what the product they're having us build is.  Frankly, I'm more interested in figuring out how to completely become a suit.  It looks like they're smarter than me where it matters.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>3 .
Start your own company , and watch out that you do n't completely become a suit.The suits are earning a lot more money and working less , despite the fact that they 're often not qualified to even understand exactly what the product they 're having us build is .
Frankly , I 'm more interested in figuring out how to completely become a suit .
It looks like they 're smarter than me where it matters .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>3.
Start your own company, and watch out that you don't completely become a suit.The suits are earning a lot more money and working less, despite the fact that they're often not qualified to even understand exactly what the product they're having us build is.
Frankly, I'm more interested in figuring out how to completely become a suit.
It looks like they're smarter than me where it matters.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904696</id>
	<title>No need for a time machine</title>
	<author>DaveAtFraud</author>
	<datestamp>1264522560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You don't need a time machine!  Just change the units on the salary numbers from dollars to rupees and then hop on a jet to Mumbai.</p><p>Cheers,<br>Dave</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do n't need a time machine !
Just change the units on the salary numbers from dollars to rupees and then hop on a jet to Mumbai.Cheers,Dave</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You don't need a time machine!
Just change the units on the salary numbers from dollars to rupees and then hop on a jet to Mumbai.Cheers,Dave</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903452</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903744</id>
	<title>Programmer, or full out software engineer?</title>
	<author>GeckoAddict</author>
	<datestamp>1264519200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Personally, I don't see $60k beings unreasonable for well-trained graduates.  The school I went to has a well-respected software engineering degree (it's actually an engineering school), and the 'average' starting salary for graduates is $57,175.  The students almost all have two year's worth of internships when they leave school, and can write requirements, test plans, do proper designs in a number of languages and technologies, and overall engineer a solution.
<br> <br>
I think the big difference here is that the article says 'Computer Science BS graduates', which I consider similar to my school.  Then the summary goes nuts about 'programmers', which I think are different than computer science.  People tend to think of programmers as the guys that just code, which of course would make them less valuable and more replaceable than full blows software engineers.
<br> <br>
High school kids and anyone who spends two years at a technical school can 'program' nowadays, but coming up with a proper design is something people are still willing to pay for.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Personally , I do n't see $ 60k beings unreasonable for well-trained graduates .
The school I went to has a well-respected software engineering degree ( it 's actually an engineering school ) , and the 'average ' starting salary for graduates is $ 57,175 .
The students almost all have two year 's worth of internships when they leave school , and can write requirements , test plans , do proper designs in a number of languages and technologies , and overall engineer a solution .
I think the big difference here is that the article says 'Computer Science BS graduates ' , which I consider similar to my school .
Then the summary goes nuts about 'programmers ' , which I think are different than computer science .
People tend to think of programmers as the guys that just code , which of course would make them less valuable and more replaceable than full blows software engineers .
High school kids and anyone who spends two years at a technical school can 'program ' nowadays , but coming up with a proper design is something people are still willing to pay for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Personally, I don't see $60k beings unreasonable for well-trained graduates.
The school I went to has a well-respected software engineering degree (it's actually an engineering school), and the 'average' starting salary for graduates is $57,175.
The students almost all have two year's worth of internships when they leave school, and can write requirements, test plans, do proper designs in a number of languages and technologies, and overall engineer a solution.
I think the big difference here is that the article says 'Computer Science BS graduates', which I consider similar to my school.
Then the summary goes nuts about 'programmers', which I think are different than computer science.
People tend to think of programmers as the guys that just code, which of course would make them less valuable and more replaceable than full blows software engineers.
High school kids and anyone who spends two years at a technical school can 'program' nowadays, but coming up with a proper design is something people are still willing to pay for.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904120</id>
	<title>Re:Really?</title>
	<author>fuzzyfuzzyfungus</author>
	<datestamp>1264520640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>TFA could simply be wrong/hyperbolic, or they could be referring to training/certs/continued education as "tools". In any corporate setup, it wouldn't even make sense to have people buying their own IDEs. Volume licensing would almost certainly be cheaper, and definitely much less of a headache for IT(though, there probably are a fair few places that get the same effect by skimping on what they buy, and then looking the other way when employees buy/pirate what they really need to get their work done).</htmltext>
<tokenext>TFA could simply be wrong/hyperbolic , or they could be referring to training/certs/continued education as " tools " .
In any corporate setup , it would n't even make sense to have people buying their own IDEs .
Volume licensing would almost certainly be cheaper , and definitely much less of a headache for IT ( though , there probably are a fair few places that get the same effect by skimping on what they buy , and then looking the other way when employees buy/pirate what they really need to get their work done ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>TFA could simply be wrong/hyperbolic, or they could be referring to training/certs/continued education as "tools".
In any corporate setup, it wouldn't even make sense to have people buying their own IDEs.
Volume licensing would almost certainly be cheaper, and definitely much less of a headache for IT(though, there probably are a fair few places that get the same effect by skimping on what they buy, and then looking the other way when employees buy/pirate what they really need to get their work done).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30908992</id>
	<title>Re:Are nerds not aware</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264496520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And not much different then the devalues of other professions like hiring Mexicans to do the drywalling which might just be good enough vs. hiring a professional drywall contractor who has years of experience and quality work done.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And not much different then the devalues of other professions like hiring Mexicans to do the drywalling which might just be good enough vs. hiring a professional drywall contractor who has years of experience and quality work done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And not much different then the devalues of other professions like hiring Mexicans to do the drywalling which might just be good enough vs. hiring a professional drywall contractor who has years of experience and quality work done.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903562</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30914652</id>
	<title>Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264585200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Rajesh?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Rajesh ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Rajesh?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906964</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905210</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>Wizworm</author>
	<datestamp>1264524660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Great where can I send my resume?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Great where can I send my resume ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Great where can I send my resume?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904458</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you have a magic time machine...</title>
	<author>jimbolauski</author>
	<datestamp>1264521780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>If I had a magic time machine and went back to 1999 the only thing I would be doing is selling short.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If I had a magic time machine and went back to 1999 the only thing I would be doing is selling short .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I had a magic time machine and went back to 1999 the only thing I would be doing is selling short.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903452</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905708</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>infalliable</author>
	<datestamp>1264526340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, for programming I would not hire a PhD for the vast majority of programming jobs.  It's just not what the degree is about.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , for programming I would not hire a PhD for the vast majority of programming jobs .
It 's just not what the degree is about .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, for programming I would not hire a PhD for the vast majority of programming jobs.
It's just not what the degree is about.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30909232</id>
	<title>Re:Depends....</title>
	<author>tarius8105</author>
	<datestamp>1264497660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You must have 10+ years experience with Windows 2008 Server R2.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You must have 10 + years experience with Windows 2008 Server R2 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You must have 10+ years experience with Windows 2008 Server R2.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30906726</id>
	<title>Re:you keep dry and sit around all day</title>
	<author>zildgulf</author>
	<datestamp>1264530240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Amen.  I'm one of those "techies" in a small company so I get to do programming, network, data security, VoIP, Satellite Technology, Mobile technology, and setup, design and implementation of such equipment.  Have you ever had to setup a Satellite Dish in a blizzard or the rain?  I have and it is no fun.  Other than that I like my job.<br> <br>
Unfortunately small firms tend to not pay as well but the job satisfaction can be good with the right company.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Amen .
I 'm one of those " techies " in a small company so I get to do programming , network , data security , VoIP , Satellite Technology , Mobile technology , and setup , design and implementation of such equipment .
Have you ever had to setup a Satellite Dish in a blizzard or the rain ?
I have and it is no fun .
Other than that I like my job .
Unfortunately small firms tend to not pay as well but the job satisfaction can be good with the right company .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Amen.
I'm one of those "techies" in a small company so I get to do programming, network, data security, VoIP, Satellite Technology, Mobile technology, and setup, design and implementation of such equipment.
Have you ever had to setup a Satellite Dish in a blizzard or the rain?
I have and it is no fun.
Other than that I like my job.
Unfortunately small firms tend to not pay as well but the job satisfaction can be good with the right company.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903742</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905424</id>
	<title>Re:the key to earning well in this field</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264525380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>This kills me. I don't want to be job-hopping. I'd like to build some time with a place, earn some kudos and sweat equity. But those things don't exist. Been at a company a month or twenty years, you are equally expendable. Treat your employer the same way. And die a little inside. People want to think of the office as family because we're social creatures. Few people enjoy living life out as a lesson in Randian objectivism, looking for leverage in the battle of who's screwing whom. We aren't meant to live like that.</i></p><p>I never really understood the need to think of co-workers as some surrogate family. Sure, we spend a lot of time at the workplace, but this notion of a loving workplace seems to be as misguided as telling little girls that Prince Charming will one day appear and take them away to his castle.</p><p>Work is what I do to enable myself to do the things I want to do when I'm not at work.  Sure, I play the game. Grumble at the poor coffee. Grumble when the stupid boss man, who hasn't coded a script in ten years, tells me change some delimiters to something other than underscores because some he heard that it causes problems.  But after work I really go home and do fun things, or boring things. Play with my daughter.  Make art.  Take classes (and try to get the 30-somethings to join me for dinner).</p><p>When the bullshit level gets too high, I leave. I go somewhere else that will pay me for the inconvenience. It's worked so far.</p><p>It only matters because we think it matters.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This kills me .
I do n't want to be job-hopping .
I 'd like to build some time with a place , earn some kudos and sweat equity .
But those things do n't exist .
Been at a company a month or twenty years , you are equally expendable .
Treat your employer the same way .
And die a little inside .
People want to think of the office as family because we 're social creatures .
Few people enjoy living life out as a lesson in Randian objectivism , looking for leverage in the battle of who 's screwing whom .
We are n't meant to live like that.I never really understood the need to think of co-workers as some surrogate family .
Sure , we spend a lot of time at the workplace , but this notion of a loving workplace seems to be as misguided as telling little girls that Prince Charming will one day appear and take them away to his castle.Work is what I do to enable myself to do the things I want to do when I 'm not at work .
Sure , I play the game .
Grumble at the poor coffee .
Grumble when the stupid boss man , who has n't coded a script in ten years , tells me change some delimiters to something other than underscores because some he heard that it causes problems .
But after work I really go home and do fun things , or boring things .
Play with my daughter .
Make art .
Take classes ( and try to get the 30-somethings to join me for dinner ) .When the bullshit level gets too high , I leave .
I go somewhere else that will pay me for the inconvenience .
It 's worked so far.It only matters because we think it matters .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This kills me.
I don't want to be job-hopping.
I'd like to build some time with a place, earn some kudos and sweat equity.
But those things don't exist.
Been at a company a month or twenty years, you are equally expendable.
Treat your employer the same way.
And die a little inside.
People want to think of the office as family because we're social creatures.
Few people enjoy living life out as a lesson in Randian objectivism, looking for leverage in the battle of who's screwing whom.
We aren't meant to live like that.I never really understood the need to think of co-workers as some surrogate family.
Sure, we spend a lot of time at the workplace, but this notion of a loving workplace seems to be as misguided as telling little girls that Prince Charming will one day appear and take them away to his castle.Work is what I do to enable myself to do the things I want to do when I'm not at work.
Sure, I play the game.
Grumble at the poor coffee.
Grumble when the stupid boss man, who hasn't coded a script in ten years, tells me change some delimiters to something other than underscores because some he heard that it causes problems.
But after work I really go home and do fun things, or boring things.
Play with my daughter.
Make art.
Take classes (and try to get the 30-somethings to join me for dinner).When the bullshit level gets too high, I leave.
I go somewhere else that will pay me for the inconvenience.
It's worked so far.It only matters because we think it matters.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904220</id>
	<title>Re:Not so much</title>
	<author>ClosedEyesSeeing</author>
	<datestamp>1264521000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Of course, how do you get experience?</p></div><p>
I can relate. I tell people trying to break into programming with zero/limited real-work experience is to start contributing to Open Source projects.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course , how do you get experience ?
I can relate .
I tell people trying to break into programming with zero/limited real-work experience is to start contributing to Open Source projects .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course, how do you get experience?
I can relate.
I tell people trying to break into programming with zero/limited real-work experience is to start contributing to Open Source projects.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30910452</id>
	<title>Re:Salary</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1264502820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My company is in Austin, TX and is paying that much for Perl devs (maybe he's referencing the same req).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My company is in Austin , TX and is paying that much for Perl devs ( maybe he 's referencing the same req ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My company is in Austin, TX and is paying that much for Perl devs (maybe he's referencing the same req).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904546</id>
	<title>Re:Putting a dollar figure down is problematic</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264522080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>After working in Omaha for 7 years as a Java developer and software architect I managed to work my way up $80k. I moved to DC and as a DoD contractor/consultant I make $125k. The TS-SCI clearance helps.</p><p>The bottom line is, if you want a large salary you have to be willing to master your craft. Subject Matter Experts are the ones that are indispensable and can negotiate a better salary.  Don't think you will get there writing php websites. If you do Java...really DO Java. Take Sun's Expert lead Performance Tuning Workshop. Learn what the JVM is REALLY doing for you. Study the API docs! Read Effective Java 2nd Edition. Read "Java Concurrency in Practice." Join a local Java Users' Group. Oh, and big thing...speak up. In your org, be willing to speak up in a meeting and suggest your ideas. Volunteer to fix things that you see are broken. Finally, figure out a niche that you can carve in your org.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>After working in Omaha for 7 years as a Java developer and software architect I managed to work my way up $ 80k .
I moved to DC and as a DoD contractor/consultant I make $ 125k .
The TS-SCI clearance helps.The bottom line is , if you want a large salary you have to be willing to master your craft .
Subject Matter Experts are the ones that are indispensable and can negotiate a better salary .
Do n't think you will get there writing php websites .
If you do Java...really DO Java .
Take Sun 's Expert lead Performance Tuning Workshop .
Learn what the JVM is REALLY doing for you .
Study the API docs !
Read Effective Java 2nd Edition .
Read " Java Concurrency in Practice .
" Join a local Java Users ' Group .
Oh , and big thing...speak up .
In your org , be willing to speak up in a meeting and suggest your ideas .
Volunteer to fix things that you see are broken .
Finally , figure out a niche that you can carve in your org .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>After working in Omaha for 7 years as a Java developer and software architect I managed to work my way up $80k.
I moved to DC and as a DoD contractor/consultant I make $125k.
The TS-SCI clearance helps.The bottom line is, if you want a large salary you have to be willing to master your craft.
Subject Matter Experts are the ones that are indispensable and can negotiate a better salary.
Don't think you will get there writing php websites.
If you do Java...really DO Java.
Take Sun's Expert lead Performance Tuning Workshop.
Learn what the JVM is REALLY doing for you.
Study the API docs!
Read Effective Java 2nd Edition.
Read "Java Concurrency in Practice.
" Join a local Java Users' Group.
Oh, and big thing...speak up.
In your org, be willing to speak up in a meeting and suggest your ideas.
Volunteer to fix things that you see are broken.
Finally, figure out a niche that you can carve in your org.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903500</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904790</id>
	<title>Re:grad vs masters vs phd the myth.</title>
	<author>Rinikusu</author>
	<datestamp>1264522920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd love to know where you're pulling down 40k (~$19/hour) in the kitchen.  Unless you're a chef (and even then, not guaranteed), it's more like $7.50-$12/hour for a line cook, depending on region.  You're much better off in the front of the house if you want money.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd love to know where you 're pulling down 40k ( ~ $ 19/hour ) in the kitchen .
Unless you 're a chef ( and even then , not guaranteed ) , it 's more like $ 7.50- $ 12/hour for a line cook , depending on region .
You 're much better off in the front of the house if you want money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd love to know where you're pulling down 40k (~$19/hour) in the kitchen.
Unless you're a chef (and even then, not guaranteed), it's more like $7.50-$12/hour for a line cook, depending on region.
You're much better off in the front of the house if you want money.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30903664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905372</id>
	<title>C and future employment?</title>
	<author>SuurMyy</author>
	<datestamp>1264525200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I took a C-programming job after a decade of C++ and I've been wondering whether I'm employable in the long run. Especially so, because I'm not doing low-level stuff. I think that were I do embedded, I'd be just fine.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I took a C-programming job after a decade of C + + and I 've been wondering whether I 'm employable in the long run .
Especially so , because I 'm not doing low-level stuff .
I think that were I do embedded , I 'd be just fine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I took a C-programming job after a decade of C++ and I've been wondering whether I'm employable in the long run.
Especially so, because I'm not doing low-level stuff.
I think that were I do embedded, I'd be just fine.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30904060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_26_1313208.30905832</id>
	<title>Re:As a recent graduate...</title>
	<author>jimicus</author>
	<datestamp>1264526760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My guess is the OP meant the ceiling salary for programmers is around &pound;35K.</p><p>I'd say that's a little pessimistic - you might make a bit more if you're really good with lots of experience and you're in a very specialist area.  AFAICT, to go much beyond that you've basically got two choices:</p><ul><li>City of London.   The financial institutions there pay a small fortune (but will probably sack you the first time you close a bug report in error).</li><li>Management.</li></ul><p>It's a fair salary - unless you're incredibly bad with money you won't have to worry about paying the bills at the end of the month.  But it's far from untold riches.</p><p>Though how on Earth one is supposed to buy a house I'm not sure because average UK house prices have multiplied by a factor of 4 or 5 over the course of the last 15 years and the recession hasn't dented them by more than about 10-15\%.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My guess is the OP meant the ceiling salary for programmers is around   35K.I 'd say that 's a little pessimistic - you might make a bit more if you 're really good with lots of experience and you 're in a very specialist area .
AFAICT , to go much beyond that you 've basically got two choices : City of London .
The financial institutions there pay a small fortune ( but will probably sack you the first time you close a bug report in error ) .Management.It 's a fair salary - unless you 're incredibly bad with money you wo n't have to worry about paying the bills at the end of the month .
But it 's far from untold riches.Though how on Earth one is supposed to buy a house I 'm not sure because average UK house prices have multiplied by a factor of 4 or 5 over the course of the last 15 years and the recession has n't dented them by more than about 10-15 \ % .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My guess is the OP meant the ceiling salary for programmers is around £35K.I'd say that's a little pessimistic - you might make a bit more if you're really good with lots of experience and you're in a very specialist area.
AFAICT, to go much beyond that you've basically got two choices:City of London.
The financial institutions there pay a small fortune (but will probably sack you the first time you close a bug report in error).Management.It's a fair salary - unless you're incredibly bad with money you won't have to worry about paying the bills at the end of the month.
But it's far from untold riches.Though how on Earth one is supposed to buy a house I'm not sure because average UK house prices have multiplied by a factor of 4 or 5 over the course of the last 15 years and the recession hasn't dented them by more than about 10-15\%.</sentencetext>
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