<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_01_09_0330203</id>
	<title>China Luring Scientists Back Home</title>
	<author>Soulskill</author>
	<datestamp>1263063660000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>blee37 writes <i>"The NY Times reports that China is <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/world/asia/07scholar.html?pagewanted=all">increasing incentives for Chinese students earning PhDs in the US to return home</a>.  One example is a prestigious Princeton microbiologist who returned to become a dean at Tsinghua, the Chinese MIT.  In my experience as a grad student, Chinese students were often torn about returning home.  The best science and the most intellectually stimulating jobs are in the US.  Yet, surely they miss their families and their hometown.  As alluded in the article, Chinese science remains far behind, especially because of rampant cronyism in academia as well as government.  But, if more Chinese students go back, it could damage the US's technology lead.  A large percentage of PhD students in the US are from China.  Also, the typical PhD student has their tuition paid for and receives a salary.  Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>blee37 writes " The NY Times reports that China is increasing incentives for Chinese students earning PhDs in the US to return home .
One example is a prestigious Princeton microbiologist who returned to become a dean at Tsinghua , the Chinese MIT .
In my experience as a grad student , Chinese students were often torn about returning home .
The best science and the most intellectually stimulating jobs are in the US .
Yet , surely they miss their families and their hometown .
As alluded in the article , Chinese science remains far behind , especially because of rampant cronyism in academia as well as government .
But , if more Chinese students go back , it could damage the US 's technology lead .
A large percentage of PhD students in the US are from China .
Also , the typical PhD student has their tuition paid for and receives a salary .
Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>blee37 writes "The NY Times reports that China is increasing incentives for Chinese students earning PhDs in the US to return home.
One example is a prestigious Princeton microbiologist who returned to become a dean at Tsinghua, the Chinese MIT.
In my experience as a grad student, Chinese students were often torn about returning home.
The best science and the most intellectually stimulating jobs are in the US.
Yet, surely they miss their families and their hometown.
As alluded in the article, Chinese science remains far behind, especially because of rampant cronyism in academia as well as government.
But, if more Chinese students go back, it could damage the US's technology lead.
A large percentage of PhD students in the US are from China.
Also, the typical PhD student has their tuition paid for and receives a salary.
Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705428</id>
	<title>Same questions are being asked in Sweden</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263068160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But what is the alternative?  Leave PhD positions unfilled?  Not enough native Swedes are interested in a PhD anyway. And when someone does stay, you win: no costs for moving that person from kindergarten to an MSc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But what is the alternative ?
Leave PhD positions unfilled ?
Not enough native Swedes are interested in a PhD anyway .
And when someone does stay , you win : no costs for moving that person from kindergarten to an MSc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But what is the alternative?
Leave PhD positions unfilled?
Not enough native Swedes are interested in a PhD anyway.
And when someone does stay, you win: no costs for moving that person from kindergarten to an MSc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706830</id>
	<title>Re:The Worm Turns</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263047460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree with your points to a degree one caveat you should keep in mind is that private schools are able to permanently remove troublemakers or those with special needs should they choose.  The later are more expensive to educate due to needing more staff/student, the former disrupt the educations of other students draining resources.  We recently had an article in the local paper bemoaning the suspension of 1,000 students per year.  A private school can simply expel them and be done with it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with your points to a degree one caveat you should keep in mind is that private schools are able to permanently remove troublemakers or those with special needs should they choose .
The later are more expensive to educate due to needing more staff/student , the former disrupt the educations of other students draining resources .
We recently had an article in the local paper bemoaning the suspension of 1,000 students per year .
A private school can simply expel them and be done with it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with your points to a degree one caveat you should keep in mind is that private schools are able to permanently remove troublemakers or those with special needs should they choose.
The later are more expensive to educate due to needing more staff/student, the former disrupt the educations of other students draining resources.
We recently had an article in the local paper bemoaning the suspension of 1,000 students per year.
A private school can simply expel them and be done with it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705682</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705908</id>
	<title>Re:I think the worse problem is the other way arou</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263032340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, there's a simple, simple way to address this problem. If a foreigner PhD recipient wants to stay in the US and find a job, then for heaven's sake let them. They're not going to end up competing with any jobs average Americans are interested in anyway. What's the use of making them leave and then contemplating the consequences of a brain drain?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , there 's a simple , simple way to address this problem .
If a foreigner PhD recipient wants to stay in the US and find a job , then for heaven 's sake let them .
They 're not going to end up competing with any jobs average Americans are interested in anyway .
What 's the use of making them leave and then contemplating the consequences of a brain drain ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, there's a simple, simple way to address this problem.
If a foreigner PhD recipient wants to stay in the US and find a job, then for heaven's sake let them.
They're not going to end up competing with any jobs average Americans are interested in anyway.
What's the use of making them leave and then contemplating the consequences of a brain drain?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705440</id>
	<title>I think the worse problem is the other way around</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263068340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've always thought that if they want to go home afterwards, let them.  If it becomes a large scale trend that nobody Chinese (or any other particular nationality) wants to stay afterwards, then people may just stop hiring as many.  In general until that point, it's still worth it to fund their education just for the work they do as a grad student, and the likely work they will do in the US afterwards, even if a few end up going home and working and contributing heavily in another economy.  <br> <br>
Here's where I think the main problem actually is: We actually send home some who do want to stay.  And that is a true wasted opportunity.  I've met a couple of very smart people in my days as a grad student that were sent home even though they wanted to stay.  Visa expired, couldn't find a job in time or some other such nonsense.  If you have a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering, you are not likely to be a drag on society, even if you don't wind up employed in your first six months out.  And now they are in China, Germany, India, or Mexico, working and contributing in those economies and using all the tools and education they got courtesy of Uncle Sam.  <br> <br>  We should make it easier for them.  And yes, I have real people in mind that I am typing about.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've always thought that if they want to go home afterwards , let them .
If it becomes a large scale trend that nobody Chinese ( or any other particular nationality ) wants to stay afterwards , then people may just stop hiring as many .
In general until that point , it 's still worth it to fund their education just for the work they do as a grad student , and the likely work they will do in the US afterwards , even if a few end up going home and working and contributing heavily in another economy .
Here 's where I think the main problem actually is : We actually send home some who do want to stay .
And that is a true wasted opportunity .
I 've met a couple of very smart people in my days as a grad student that were sent home even though they wanted to stay .
Visa expired , could n't find a job in time or some other such nonsense .
If you have a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering , you are not likely to be a drag on society , even if you do n't wind up employed in your first six months out .
And now they are in China , Germany , India , or Mexico , working and contributing in those economies and using all the tools and education they got courtesy of Uncle Sam .
We should make it easier for them .
And yes , I have real people in mind that I am typing about .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've always thought that if they want to go home afterwards, let them.
If it becomes a large scale trend that nobody Chinese (or any other particular nationality) wants to stay afterwards, then people may just stop hiring as many.
In general until that point, it's still worth it to fund their education just for the work they do as a grad student, and the likely work they will do in the US afterwards, even if a few end up going home and working and contributing heavily in another economy.
Here's where I think the main problem actually is: We actually send home some who do want to stay.
And that is a true wasted opportunity.
I've met a couple of very smart people in my days as a grad student that were sent home even though they wanted to stay.
Visa expired, couldn't find a job in time or some other such nonsense.
If you have a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering, you are not likely to be a drag on society, even if you don't wind up employed in your first six months out.
And now they are in China, Germany, India, or Mexico, working and contributing in those economies and using all the tools and education they got courtesy of Uncle Sam.
We should make it easier for them.
And yes, I have real people in mind that I am typing about.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706608</id>
	<title>US's technology lead?</title>
	<author>loufoque</author>
	<datestamp>1263043920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What lead? They lost it ages ago.<br>Usians really need to stop thinking they're the best. This megalomania is getting their science nowhere.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What lead ?
They lost it ages ago.Usians really need to stop thinking they 're the best .
This megalomania is getting their science nowhere .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What lead?
They lost it ages ago.Usians really need to stop thinking they're the best.
This megalomania is getting their science nowhere.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707744</id>
	<title>Meh</title>
	<author>McGiraf</author>
	<datestamp>1263057780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> "Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere?"</p><p>Does it make sense for the government (public expense) to invest in their training if they will do their major work for corporation (private profit)?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere ?
" Does it make sense for the government ( public expense ) to invest in their training if they will do their major work for corporation ( private profit ) ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext> "Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere?
"Does it make sense for the government (public expense) to invest in their training if they will do their major work for corporation (private profit)?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707556</id>
	<title>Re:I predict a boom in Chinese research.</title>
	<author>aspelling</author>
	<datestamp>1263055560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Chinese are willing to spend their money on fundamental research without immediate financial reward.<br>This is against our culture of quarter-per-quarter results.<br>Friend of mine who is in the top pack of string theorists was invited for a tenured position to teach/research in China. I always make fun of him working on something he couldn't even experimentally proof, but they were willing to pay for it.<br>He hasn't accepted the offer because he got the same position in UK, which is much closer culturally to us.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Chinese are willing to spend their money on fundamental research without immediate financial reward.This is against our culture of quarter-per-quarter results.Friend of mine who is in the top pack of string theorists was invited for a tenured position to teach/research in China .
I always make fun of him working on something he could n't even experimentally proof , but they were willing to pay for it.He has n't accepted the offer because he got the same position in UK , which is much closer culturally to us .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Chinese are willing to spend their money on fundamental research without immediate financial reward.This is against our culture of quarter-per-quarter results.Friend of mine who is in the top pack of string theorists was invited for a tenured position to teach/research in China.
I always make fun of him working on something he couldn't even experimentally proof, but they were willing to pay for it.He hasn't accepted the offer because he got the same position in UK, which is much closer culturally to us.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705472</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30708508</id>
	<title>welcome to our world</title>
	<author>po134</author>
	<datestamp>1263064560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>this has been Canada's (more specificly, Quebec) problem for a long while now, many (if not most) of our phd/md/etc. are leaving our province for another province/country in which they will be better paid or to join some big company, here their tuition fees are minimal but they're expected to work here afterward, it's a suppose to be giving-giving, but many come to Canada to study and then leave afterward... <br>I personally think this shouldn't be possible, maybe with something like in the army that say you have to serve at least 4 years before you leave after you get the iniial training.</htmltext>
<tokenext>this has been Canada 's ( more specificly , Quebec ) problem for a long while now , many ( if not most ) of our phd/md/etc .
are leaving our province for another province/country in which they will be better paid or to join some big company , here their tuition fees are minimal but they 're expected to work here afterward , it 's a suppose to be giving-giving , but many come to Canada to study and then leave afterward... I personally think this should n't be possible , maybe with something like in the army that say you have to serve at least 4 years before you leave after you get the iniial training .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>this has been Canada's (more specificly, Quebec) problem for a long while now, many (if not most) of our phd/md/etc.
are leaving our province for another province/country in which they will be better paid or to join some big company, here their tuition fees are minimal but they're expected to work here afterward, it's a suppose to be giving-giving, but many come to Canada to study and then leave afterward... I personally think this shouldn't be possible, maybe with something like in the army that say you have to serve at least 4 years before you leave after you get the iniial training.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705368</id>
	<title>Simple question...simple answer.</title>
	<author>djupedal</author>
	<datestamp>1263067500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>&gt; <i>"Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere?"</i>
<br>
<br>
What goes around comes around.
<br>
<br>
Grad students don't have to reside in North America to do good....get over it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; " Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere ?
" What goes around comes around .
Grad students do n't have to reside in North America to do good....get over it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; "Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere?
"


What goes around comes around.
Grad students don't have to reside in North America to do good....get over it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30709184</id>
	<title>A lot of reasons for them to go home</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263070200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are a lot of reasons not to do science in the US.  There are a lot of Chinese grad students because Asians are taught at a young age that solving problems will take time.  You have to sit and think.  If you don't have the answer in 10 seconds in the US, someone manic and quick to shout "quick quick quick, whats taking so long".  Sometimes problems take time to solve correctly.  In the US, the mentality is: I'm in too big a hurry to do it right.  I've seen this over and over.  I'm disgusted by it.  Acquiring a PhD takes time and work.  They know things take time to be done right.  I've seen American companies ship products early, even though the product is bad.  They are in a hurry.  They spend a billion on recall, and bitch out people for the problem, but its the ones in the hurry who actually screwed up.  American companies are full of this kind of person.  Its where mistakes happen.  Sadly in the US, they get promoted.  Thats just one reason why America is loosing the lead in science.  But there is more.  These people are in too big a hurry to know what is needed for science to be done well.  They underfund science.  Worse, if they can't return a profit in a very fixed amount of time, then they write it off.  Development happens in fits and starts.  Its not a continuum.  I've seen this before.  There are literally a million case histories in the US.  I remember reading an article where a scientist was asked to research a biological solution to something.  He did, but instead of it taking 18 months, it took 2 weeks.  The results were verified, the solution was sound.  But since he was on contract, and he had a lab and a large powerful computer at his disposal, he went about researching a deadly drug (if he didn't show up for work he wouldn't be paid and the contract would be void, and he didn't want to just drink coffee all day).  About 16 months on, he came up with a very significant breakthrough in gene replication.  His development wouldn't help just cure just one disease, but all disease.  His method was more than a million times faster than any previous method (and in many cases, there was no method, his solved that too).  He would never be given the tools to do this if he asked for a grant (he had asked for a grant, the company said no).  They were initially angry he used their resources and wanted to bill him and sue him.   When they realised his discovery would make them billions, they decided not to sue, but didn't give him credit either, and wanted many more breakthroughs (at the same pay rate as before).  He got fed up and left the company.  Its a typical American company.  Is there a surprise the US is losing its tech edge?  More research in China?  No shit!  The American century started sometime between 1912 and 1918.  Its nearing its end.  The US is near financial collapse.  Their job numbers suck.  US companies have been far too greedy for too long.  The top 5\% are not providing enough for the bottom 95\% to innovate.  The model is broken.  The English work house had to die for society to be better off.  In France (FRANCE!) the disparity between rich and poor is far less, and they aren't communist.  The US no longer has the means for real social reform, but its needed more badly than ever.  Republicans are fuck heads.  Greedy bastardism has to be killed.  Communism is no good, but capitalism is just as bad.  A balance is needed.  For too long, ultra right wing fascists have ruled the US (the GW Bush administration and the republican party of that time).  There have been others too.  Also, too much power went to corporations.  Far too much.  The Chinese aren't going to hang the American people, but they are going to hang US corporations.  Its pretty late coming, but long overdue.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are a lot of reasons not to do science in the US .
There are a lot of Chinese grad students because Asians are taught at a young age that solving problems will take time .
You have to sit and think .
If you do n't have the answer in 10 seconds in the US , someone manic and quick to shout " quick quick quick , whats taking so long " .
Sometimes problems take time to solve correctly .
In the US , the mentality is : I 'm in too big a hurry to do it right .
I 've seen this over and over .
I 'm disgusted by it .
Acquiring a PhD takes time and work .
They know things take time to be done right .
I 've seen American companies ship products early , even though the product is bad .
They are in a hurry .
They spend a billion on recall , and bitch out people for the problem , but its the ones in the hurry who actually screwed up .
American companies are full of this kind of person .
Its where mistakes happen .
Sadly in the US , they get promoted .
Thats just one reason why America is loosing the lead in science .
But there is more .
These people are in too big a hurry to know what is needed for science to be done well .
They underfund science .
Worse , if they ca n't return a profit in a very fixed amount of time , then they write it off .
Development happens in fits and starts .
Its not a continuum .
I 've seen this before .
There are literally a million case histories in the US .
I remember reading an article where a scientist was asked to research a biological solution to something .
He did , but instead of it taking 18 months , it took 2 weeks .
The results were verified , the solution was sound .
But since he was on contract , and he had a lab and a large powerful computer at his disposal , he went about researching a deadly drug ( if he did n't show up for work he would n't be paid and the contract would be void , and he did n't want to just drink coffee all day ) .
About 16 months on , he came up with a very significant breakthrough in gene replication .
His development would n't help just cure just one disease , but all disease .
His method was more than a million times faster than any previous method ( and in many cases , there was no method , his solved that too ) .
He would never be given the tools to do this if he asked for a grant ( he had asked for a grant , the company said no ) .
They were initially angry he used their resources and wanted to bill him and sue him .
When they realised his discovery would make them billions , they decided not to sue , but did n't give him credit either , and wanted many more breakthroughs ( at the same pay rate as before ) .
He got fed up and left the company .
Its a typical American company .
Is there a surprise the US is losing its tech edge ?
More research in China ?
No shit !
The American century started sometime between 1912 and 1918 .
Its nearing its end .
The US is near financial collapse .
Their job numbers suck .
US companies have been far too greedy for too long .
The top 5 \ % are not providing enough for the bottom 95 \ % to innovate .
The model is broken .
The English work house had to die for society to be better off .
In France ( FRANCE !
) the disparity between rich and poor is far less , and they are n't communist .
The US no longer has the means for real social reform , but its needed more badly than ever .
Republicans are fuck heads .
Greedy bastardism has to be killed .
Communism is no good , but capitalism is just as bad .
A balance is needed .
For too long , ultra right wing fascists have ruled the US ( the GW Bush administration and the republican party of that time ) .
There have been others too .
Also , too much power went to corporations .
Far too much .
The Chinese are n't going to hang the American people , but they are going to hang US corporations .
Its pretty late coming , but long overdue .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are a lot of reasons not to do science in the US.
There are a lot of Chinese grad students because Asians are taught at a young age that solving problems will take time.
You have to sit and think.
If you don't have the answer in 10 seconds in the US, someone manic and quick to shout "quick quick quick, whats taking so long".
Sometimes problems take time to solve correctly.
In the US, the mentality is: I'm in too big a hurry to do it right.
I've seen this over and over.
I'm disgusted by it.
Acquiring a PhD takes time and work.
They know things take time to be done right.
I've seen American companies ship products early, even though the product is bad.
They are in a hurry.
They spend a billion on recall, and bitch out people for the problem, but its the ones in the hurry who actually screwed up.
American companies are full of this kind of person.
Its where mistakes happen.
Sadly in the US, they get promoted.
Thats just one reason why America is loosing the lead in science.
But there is more.
These people are in too big a hurry to know what is needed for science to be done well.
They underfund science.
Worse, if they can't return a profit in a very fixed amount of time, then they write it off.
Development happens in fits and starts.
Its not a continuum.
I've seen this before.
There are literally a million case histories in the US.
I remember reading an article where a scientist was asked to research a biological solution to something.
He did, but instead of it taking 18 months, it took 2 weeks.
The results were verified, the solution was sound.
But since he was on contract, and he had a lab and a large powerful computer at his disposal, he went about researching a deadly drug (if he didn't show up for work he wouldn't be paid and the contract would be void, and he didn't want to just drink coffee all day).
About 16 months on, he came up with a very significant breakthrough in gene replication.
His development wouldn't help just cure just one disease, but all disease.
His method was more than a million times faster than any previous method (and in many cases, there was no method, his solved that too).
He would never be given the tools to do this if he asked for a grant (he had asked for a grant, the company said no).
They were initially angry he used their resources and wanted to bill him and sue him.
When they realised his discovery would make them billions, they decided not to sue, but didn't give him credit either, and wanted many more breakthroughs (at the same pay rate as before).
He got fed up and left the company.
Its a typical American company.
Is there a surprise the US is losing its tech edge?
More research in China?
No shit!
The American century started sometime between 1912 and 1918.
Its nearing its end.
The US is near financial collapse.
Their job numbers suck.
US companies have been far too greedy for too long.
The top 5\% are not providing enough for the bottom 95\% to innovate.
The model is broken.
The English work house had to die for society to be better off.
In France (FRANCE!
) the disparity between rich and poor is far less, and they aren't communist.
The US no longer has the means for real social reform, but its needed more badly than ever.
Republicans are fuck heads.
Greedy bastardism has to be killed.
Communism is no good, but capitalism is just as bad.
A balance is needed.
For too long, ultra right wing fascists have ruled the US (the GW Bush administration and the republican party of that time).
There have been others too.
Also, too much power went to corporations.
Far too much.
The Chinese aren't going to hang the American people, but they are going to hang US corporations.
Its pretty late coming, but long overdue.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30713350</id>
	<title>Re:I think the worse problem is the other way arou</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263115560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Very untrue. In most universities, the high cost of *tuition* for the grad student must be paid (to the university) in addition to the meager stipend. This usually comes out of research grants (ultimately from the industry or from NSF/DARPA etc. -- the government). In the cases where the university waives it or reduces it for PhD students, there is still a cost to the university (which it chooses to hide to the student), which is ultimately borne typically by taxpayers (in public universities) or industry and/or govt. funding (private universities).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Very untrue .
In most universities , the high cost of * tuition * for the grad student must be paid ( to the university ) in addition to the meager stipend .
This usually comes out of research grants ( ultimately from the industry or from NSF/DARPA etc .
-- the government ) .
In the cases where the university waives it or reduces it for PhD students , there is still a cost to the university ( which it chooses to hide to the student ) , which is ultimately borne typically by taxpayers ( in public universities ) or industry and/or govt .
funding ( private universities ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Very untrue.
In most universities, the high cost of *tuition* for the grad student must be paid (to the university) in addition to the meager stipend.
This usually comes out of research grants (ultimately from the industry or from NSF/DARPA etc.
-- the government).
In the cases where the university waives it or reduces it for PhD students, there is still a cost to the university (which it chooses to hide to the student), which is ultimately borne typically by taxpayers (in public universities) or industry and/or govt.
funding (private universities).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705682</id>
	<title>Re:The Worm Turns</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263029040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm really getting tired of the "underfunded" argument as to why schools are failing in the US. Seriously?</p><p>Public funding has increased steadily, at a rate faster than inflation. This is not just nationally, but also at the local level through property taxes.</p><p>Also, the funding argument is easily dissuaded simply by pointing out counter-examples: there are many, many private schools which are able to educate students to superior levels in all of the basics. We're talking half as much funding and less.</p><p>The cause for government school failure in the US is not due to a lack of funding. That's an excuse, and pushes the blame from the cause. The cause is that they're government schools, with strict top-down models they must adhere to, and do not take the individual student in mind. Schools have to do well on standardized tests, yadda yadda. It's all a huge drain to actual education, and has been so, progressively for over 60 years now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm really getting tired of the " underfunded " argument as to why schools are failing in the US .
Seriously ? Public funding has increased steadily , at a rate faster than inflation .
This is not just nationally , but also at the local level through property taxes.Also , the funding argument is easily dissuaded simply by pointing out counter-examples : there are many , many private schools which are able to educate students to superior levels in all of the basics .
We 're talking half as much funding and less.The cause for government school failure in the US is not due to a lack of funding .
That 's an excuse , and pushes the blame from the cause .
The cause is that they 're government schools , with strict top-down models they must adhere to , and do not take the individual student in mind .
Schools have to do well on standardized tests , yadda yadda .
It 's all a huge drain to actual education , and has been so , progressively for over 60 years now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm really getting tired of the "underfunded" argument as to why schools are failing in the US.
Seriously?Public funding has increased steadily, at a rate faster than inflation.
This is not just nationally, but also at the local level through property taxes.Also, the funding argument is easily dissuaded simply by pointing out counter-examples: there are many, many private schools which are able to educate students to superior levels in all of the basics.
We're talking half as much funding and less.The cause for government school failure in the US is not due to a lack of funding.
That's an excuse, and pushes the blame from the cause.
The cause is that they're government schools, with strict top-down models they must adhere to, and do not take the individual student in mind.
Schools have to do well on standardized tests, yadda yadda.
It's all a huge drain to actual education, and has been so, progressively for over 60 years now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705446</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30714670</id>
	<title>The upside for the U.S.</title>
	<author>Shane dot H</author>
	<datestamp>1263141060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's not an unambiguous bad thing that some new degreeholders return to their home country. We want at least some of them to go back and become successful leaders in their respective fields. In fact, we want a decent number to go build careers in their home countries.
<br> <br>
For one, geopolitics and international economics isn't a zero-sum game. There are things that are good for everyone. A rapidly developing trade partner helps us, too. For another, when we educate a large number of their big players, we have basically imparting our values on the most influential people in that society. In addition, those guys, being educated in English and having made contacts with many in the U.S., will naturally be more inclined to do business or collaborative research with Americans in the future. Even when a Chinese company does business with an Indian company, they will be collaborating in English. That's a natural edge for our citizens, especially their fellow students in grad school. As a small example, my time spent with Indian, Eastern European, Chinese, and Korean TAs in undergrad really enhanced my ability to understand their accents.
<br> <br>
So, I think it's pretty obvious that there is an ideal number of students educated here who immediately return to their home countries. Whether that ideal is higher or lower than the actual number today, I don't pretend to know - but I think we'll be fine as long as we have world-class universities located on our soil. If we really want more of them to stay, we need to be able to streamline the visa/greencard process for educated people. We also may want to make financial incentives (e.g. loans that are forgivable upon attaining permanent residency/citizenship) to keep them around. Either way, this "problem" is not much of a problem at all, and even so has easy fixes.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not an unambiguous bad thing that some new degreeholders return to their home country .
We want at least some of them to go back and become successful leaders in their respective fields .
In fact , we want a decent number to go build careers in their home countries .
For one , geopolitics and international economics is n't a zero-sum game .
There are things that are good for everyone .
A rapidly developing trade partner helps us , too .
For another , when we educate a large number of their big players , we have basically imparting our values on the most influential people in that society .
In addition , those guys , being educated in English and having made contacts with many in the U.S. , will naturally be more inclined to do business or collaborative research with Americans in the future .
Even when a Chinese company does business with an Indian company , they will be collaborating in English .
That 's a natural edge for our citizens , especially their fellow students in grad school .
As a small example , my time spent with Indian , Eastern European , Chinese , and Korean TAs in undergrad really enhanced my ability to understand their accents .
So , I think it 's pretty obvious that there is an ideal number of students educated here who immediately return to their home countries .
Whether that ideal is higher or lower than the actual number today , I do n't pretend to know - but I think we 'll be fine as long as we have world-class universities located on our soil .
If we really want more of them to stay , we need to be able to streamline the visa/greencard process for educated people .
We also may want to make financial incentives ( e.g .
loans that are forgivable upon attaining permanent residency/citizenship ) to keep them around .
Either way , this " problem " is not much of a problem at all , and even so has easy fixes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not an unambiguous bad thing that some new degreeholders return to their home country.
We want at least some of them to go back and become successful leaders in their respective fields.
In fact, we want a decent number to go build careers in their home countries.
For one, geopolitics and international economics isn't a zero-sum game.
There are things that are good for everyone.
A rapidly developing trade partner helps us, too.
For another, when we educate a large number of their big players, we have basically imparting our values on the most influential people in that society.
In addition, those guys, being educated in English and having made contacts with many in the U.S., will naturally be more inclined to do business or collaborative research with Americans in the future.
Even when a Chinese company does business with an Indian company, they will be collaborating in English.
That's a natural edge for our citizens, especially their fellow students in grad school.
As a small example, my time spent with Indian, Eastern European, Chinese, and Korean TAs in undergrad really enhanced my ability to understand their accents.
So, I think it's pretty obvious that there is an ideal number of students educated here who immediately return to their home countries.
Whether that ideal is higher or lower than the actual number today, I don't pretend to know - but I think we'll be fine as long as we have world-class universities located on our soil.
If we really want more of them to stay, we need to be able to streamline the visa/greencard process for educated people.
We also may want to make financial incentives (e.g.
loans that are forgivable upon attaining permanent residency/citizenship) to keep them around.
Either way, this "problem" is not much of a problem at all, and even so has easy fixes.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705696</id>
	<title>Green card</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263029280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Seriously. Anyone earning a bachelors (let alone a masters or a PhD) in a "hard" science or a list of accepted majors (CS, EE/ME/etc.) should have a green card stapled to their diploma at their commencement ceremony. Perhaps for Masters you get to bring your significant other over and for a PhD you get up to 5 additional family members (mom+dad and any siblings/brother/sister in law  with no criminal record), whatever, if you're going to lure the best and brightest, train them, etc, you should bloody well hang on to them (it's just common sense!). This from a Canadian no less (personally I think we should give automatic landed immigrant status to anyone that speaks English or French, has no criminal record and has a 4 year degree in anything remotely useful). Our countries are founded on immigration, this seems like a no-brainer to me!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously .
Anyone earning a bachelors ( let alone a masters or a PhD ) in a " hard " science or a list of accepted majors ( CS , EE/ME/etc .
) should have a green card stapled to their diploma at their commencement ceremony .
Perhaps for Masters you get to bring your significant other over and for a PhD you get up to 5 additional family members ( mom + dad and any siblings/brother/sister in law with no criminal record ) , whatever , if you 're going to lure the best and brightest , train them , etc , you should bloody well hang on to them ( it 's just common sense ! ) .
This from a Canadian no less ( personally I think we should give automatic landed immigrant status to anyone that speaks English or French , has no criminal record and has a 4 year degree in anything remotely useful ) .
Our countries are founded on immigration , this seems like a no-brainer to me !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously.
Anyone earning a bachelors (let alone a masters or a PhD) in a "hard" science or a list of accepted majors (CS, EE/ME/etc.
) should have a green card stapled to their diploma at their commencement ceremony.
Perhaps for Masters you get to bring your significant other over and for a PhD you get up to 5 additional family members (mom+dad and any siblings/brother/sister in law  with no criminal record), whatever, if you're going to lure the best and brightest, train them, etc, you should bloody well hang on to them (it's just common sense!).
This from a Canadian no less (personally I think we should give automatic landed immigrant status to anyone that speaks English or French, has no criminal record and has a 4 year degree in anything remotely useful).
Our countries are founded on immigration, this seems like a no-brainer to me!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705594</id>
	<title>We are asking the same in India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263070560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>India invests a lot of money in training grad students in the prestigious IITs (premier engineering colleges in India). 50\% plus students travel to US, do their MS/PhD and work in the US and become US citizens eventually. We call this "brain drain" in India. We will be glad if the "reverse brain drain" helps us regain some of the losses.</p><p>As a leader, it is the responsibility of a country like US to help everyone grow. If the US does not demonstrate leadership traits, someone else will. Leadership is not simply about more money/resources/power. It is about being a "leader" and behaving like one.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>India invests a lot of money in training grad students in the prestigious IITs ( premier engineering colleges in India ) .
50 \ % plus students travel to US , do their MS/PhD and work in the US and become US citizens eventually .
We call this " brain drain " in India .
We will be glad if the " reverse brain drain " helps us regain some of the losses.As a leader , it is the responsibility of a country like US to help everyone grow .
If the US does not demonstrate leadership traits , someone else will .
Leadership is not simply about more money/resources/power .
It is about being a " leader " and behaving like one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>India invests a lot of money in training grad students in the prestigious IITs (premier engineering colleges in India).
50\% plus students travel to US, do their MS/PhD and work in the US and become US citizens eventually.
We call this "brain drain" in India.
We will be glad if the "reverse brain drain" helps us regain some of the losses.As a leader, it is the responsibility of a country like US to help everyone grow.
If the US does not demonstrate leadership traits, someone else will.
Leadership is not simply about more money/resources/power.
It is about being a "leader" and behaving like one.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705472</id>
	<title>I predict a boom in Chinese research.</title>
	<author>Interoperable</author>
	<datestamp>1263068940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>From what I have observed in the field that I study (quantum optics), there has been a rapid increase in the number and quality of publications from Chinese institutes. For the moment, they tend to lag behind the labs in more developed economies, filling out the body of information in the field rather than pioneering new techniques. Nonetheless, the research is usually very sound and many institutes are catching up very quickly.</p><p>The students from China tend to be very talented and are willing to work extremely hard. As the quality of equipment and infrastructure improves in the Chinese labs and the opportunities there rival the more mature labs the Chinese students will have no problem returning or staying to do doctoral work. I imagine that the situation is similar in other fields and I'm sure that there will soon be an explosion of quality research coming from China.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>From what I have observed in the field that I study ( quantum optics ) , there has been a rapid increase in the number and quality of publications from Chinese institutes .
For the moment , they tend to lag behind the labs in more developed economies , filling out the body of information in the field rather than pioneering new techniques .
Nonetheless , the research is usually very sound and many institutes are catching up very quickly.The students from China tend to be very talented and are willing to work extremely hard .
As the quality of equipment and infrastructure improves in the Chinese labs and the opportunities there rival the more mature labs the Chinese students will have no problem returning or staying to do doctoral work .
I imagine that the situation is similar in other fields and I 'm sure that there will soon be an explosion of quality research coming from China .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From what I have observed in the field that I study (quantum optics), there has been a rapid increase in the number and quality of publications from Chinese institutes.
For the moment, they tend to lag behind the labs in more developed economies, filling out the body of information in the field rather than pioneering new techniques.
Nonetheless, the research is usually very sound and many institutes are catching up very quickly.The students from China tend to be very talented and are willing to work extremely hard.
As the quality of equipment and infrastructure improves in the Chinese labs and the opportunities there rival the more mature labs the Chinese students will have no problem returning or staying to do doctoral work.
I imagine that the situation is similar in other fields and I'm sure that there will soon be an explosion of quality research coming from China.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705626</id>
	<title>well, duh</title>
	<author>inflamed</author>
	<datestamp>1263028020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's a big temptation to go back to China because job opportunities for PhDs are few and far between - and it's getting worse.  On the other hand, the standard of living in China is always rising and they ALWAYS employ their best and brightest with good jobs.

Meritocracy vs Plutocracy

Diggit?</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's a big temptation to go back to China because job opportunities for PhDs are few and far between - and it 's getting worse .
On the other hand , the standard of living in China is always rising and they ALWAYS employ their best and brightest with good jobs .
Meritocracy vs Plutocracy Diggit ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's a big temptation to go back to China because job opportunities for PhDs are few and far between - and it's getting worse.
On the other hand, the standard of living in China is always rising and they ALWAYS employ their best and brightest with good jobs.
Meritocracy vs Plutocracy

Diggit?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30720682</id>
	<title>Re:The Worm Turns</title>
	<author>fishexe</author>
	<datestamp>1263242460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I'm really getting tired of the "underfunded" argument as to why schools are failing in the US. Seriously?</p></div><p>
And I'm getting really tired of morons failing to grasp the simple connection, then invoking government conspiracy theories about them damn lib'ruls, as well as made-up statistics, to justify running the education system further into the ground.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Public funding has increased steadily, at a rate faster than inflation.</p></div><p>First of all, without other information this is completely meaningless.  If schools were grossly underfunded to begin with, then you would expect spending to increase faster than inflation just to make up the deficit.  How do we stand on education spending?  As a percentage of GDP, 37th in the world (source: <a href="http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu\_edu\_spe-education-spending-of-gdp" title="nationmaster.com">http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu\_edu\_spe-education-spending-of-gdp</a> [nationmaster.com]).  What country is first? Cuba.  Is this correlated with educational quality?  Perhaps, perhaps not, but the country with the world's highest literacy rate? Also Cuba (source: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_literacy\_rate" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_literacy\_rate</a> [wikipedia.org]).
<br>Second, your claim that this increase has been steady is false. ( <a href="http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart\_gs.php?year=1980\_2010&amp;view=1&amp;expand=&amp;units=b&amp;fy=fy10&amp;chart=20-total&amp;bar=1&amp;stack=1&amp;size=m&amp;title=&amp;state=US&amp;color=c&amp;local=" title="usgovernmentspending.com">http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart\_gs.php?year=1980\_2010&amp;view=1&amp;expand=&amp;units=b&amp;fy=fy10&amp;chart=20-total&amp;bar=1&amp;stack=1&amp;size=m&amp;title=&amp;state=US&amp;color=c&amp;local=</a> [usgovernmentspending.com]) True, most years the increase is more than inflation, but certainly not all, and in a few years it was as low as 1.8\% when inflation was around 3\%.</p><p><div class="quote"><p> This is not just nationally, but also at the local level through property taxes.</p></div><p>
I don't know where you live, but where I grew up (a village in southern Wisconsin) the school budget declined every year for the entire time I attended middle and high school, to the point that there was a toilet paper shortage, since it "wasn't in the budget" to buy a few dozen more rolls toward the end of the year, all because every year local conservatives whined more and more about property taxes.  In the time since I've graduated funding has gotten even lower; a friend who now teaches at the school has reported that school lunch is now down to a couple slices of white bread, a slab of meat, and an apple.  At least when I was there, we still got two vegetable choices and pizza day twice a month.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Also, the funding argument is easily dissuaded simply by pointing out counter-examples: there are many, many private schools which are able to educate students to superior levels in all of the basics. We're talking half as much funding and less.</p></div><p>Do you have documentary evidence of even one private school taking in half as much money as a nearby public school and outperforming it?  Comparisons of widely different geographic and demographic areas don't count; that's called cherry-picking your data.  While it's certainly true that the average private school outperforms similarly situated public schools, almost all of these private schools take in more funding per pupil AND have the selection bias of families whose parents are more motivated towards education than the local average.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>The cause for government school failure in the US is not due to a lack of funding. That's an excuse, and pushes the blame from the cause. </p></div><p>Again, evidence please?  In statistical or logical form, not just your assertion.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>The cause is that they're government schools, with strict top-down models they must adhere to, and do not take the individual student in mind. Schools have to do well on standardized tests, yadda yadda. It's all a huge drain to actual education, and has been so, progressively for over 60 years now.</p></div><p>So how come every single country out-performing us in education does so through government schools?  Does your explanation not fly in the face of 100\% of available evidence?  Yeah, private schools outperform public schools, but only because they skim off the cream of the crop of students and charge an arm and a leg, while leaving the public school system to take everyone else.  Try educating all of society through private schools.  Just try it.  I dare you.  And until you've found a test case where that works, I want reasonable funding for the system we know can work.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm really getting tired of the " underfunded " argument as to why schools are failing in the US .
Seriously ? And I 'm getting really tired of morons failing to grasp the simple connection , then invoking government conspiracy theories about them damn lib'ruls , as well as made-up statistics , to justify running the education system further into the ground.Public funding has increased steadily , at a rate faster than inflation.First of all , without other information this is completely meaningless .
If schools were grossly underfunded to begin with , then you would expect spending to increase faster than inflation just to make up the deficit .
How do we stand on education spending ?
As a percentage of GDP , 37th in the world ( source : http : //www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu \ _edu \ _spe-education-spending-of-gdp [ nationmaster.com ] ) .
What country is first ?
Cuba. Is this correlated with educational quality ?
Perhaps , perhaps not , but the country with the world 's highest literacy rate ?
Also Cuba ( source : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List \ _of \ _countries \ _by \ _literacy \ _rate [ wikipedia.org ] ) .
Second , your claim that this increase has been steady is false .
( http : //www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart \ _gs.php ? year = 1980 \ _2010&amp;view = 1&amp;expand = &amp;units = b&amp;fy = fy10&amp;chart = 20-total&amp;bar = 1&amp;stack = 1&amp;size = m&amp;title = &amp;state = US&amp;color = c&amp;local = [ usgovernmentspending.com ] ) True , most years the increase is more than inflation , but certainly not all , and in a few years it was as low as 1.8 \ % when inflation was around 3 \ % .
This is not just nationally , but also at the local level through property taxes .
I do n't know where you live , but where I grew up ( a village in southern Wisconsin ) the school budget declined every year for the entire time I attended middle and high school , to the point that there was a toilet paper shortage , since it " was n't in the budget " to buy a few dozen more rolls toward the end of the year , all because every year local conservatives whined more and more about property taxes .
In the time since I 've graduated funding has gotten even lower ; a friend who now teaches at the school has reported that school lunch is now down to a couple slices of white bread , a slab of meat , and an apple .
At least when I was there , we still got two vegetable choices and pizza day twice a month.Also , the funding argument is easily dissuaded simply by pointing out counter-examples : there are many , many private schools which are able to educate students to superior levels in all of the basics .
We 're talking half as much funding and less.Do you have documentary evidence of even one private school taking in half as much money as a nearby public school and outperforming it ?
Comparisons of widely different geographic and demographic areas do n't count ; that 's called cherry-picking your data .
While it 's certainly true that the average private school outperforms similarly situated public schools , almost all of these private schools take in more funding per pupil AND have the selection bias of families whose parents are more motivated towards education than the local average.The cause for government school failure in the US is not due to a lack of funding .
That 's an excuse , and pushes the blame from the cause .
Again , evidence please ?
In statistical or logical form , not just your assertion.The cause is that they 're government schools , with strict top-down models they must adhere to , and do not take the individual student in mind .
Schools have to do well on standardized tests , yadda yadda .
It 's all a huge drain to actual education , and has been so , progressively for over 60 years now.So how come every single country out-performing us in education does so through government schools ?
Does your explanation not fly in the face of 100 \ % of available evidence ?
Yeah , private schools outperform public schools , but only because they skim off the cream of the crop of students and charge an arm and a leg , while leaving the public school system to take everyone else .
Try educating all of society through private schools .
Just try it .
I dare you .
And until you 've found a test case where that works , I want reasonable funding for the system we know can work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm really getting tired of the "underfunded" argument as to why schools are failing in the US.
Seriously?
And I'm getting really tired of morons failing to grasp the simple connection, then invoking government conspiracy theories about them damn lib'ruls, as well as made-up statistics, to justify running the education system further into the ground.Public funding has increased steadily, at a rate faster than inflation.First of all, without other information this is completely meaningless.
If schools were grossly underfunded to begin with, then you would expect spending to increase faster than inflation just to make up the deficit.
How do we stand on education spending?
As a percentage of GDP, 37th in the world (source: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu\_edu\_spe-education-spending-of-gdp [nationmaster.com]).
What country is first?
Cuba.  Is this correlated with educational quality?
Perhaps, perhaps not, but the country with the world's highest literacy rate?
Also Cuba (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_literacy\_rate [wikipedia.org]).
Second, your claim that this increase has been steady is false.
( http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart\_gs.php?year=1980\_2010&amp;view=1&amp;expand=&amp;units=b&amp;fy=fy10&amp;chart=20-total&amp;bar=1&amp;stack=1&amp;size=m&amp;title=&amp;state=US&amp;color=c&amp;local= [usgovernmentspending.com]) True, most years the increase is more than inflation, but certainly not all, and in a few years it was as low as 1.8\% when inflation was around 3\%.
This is not just nationally, but also at the local level through property taxes.
I don't know where you live, but where I grew up (a village in southern Wisconsin) the school budget declined every year for the entire time I attended middle and high school, to the point that there was a toilet paper shortage, since it "wasn't in the budget" to buy a few dozen more rolls toward the end of the year, all because every year local conservatives whined more and more about property taxes.
In the time since I've graduated funding has gotten even lower; a friend who now teaches at the school has reported that school lunch is now down to a couple slices of white bread, a slab of meat, and an apple.
At least when I was there, we still got two vegetable choices and pizza day twice a month.Also, the funding argument is easily dissuaded simply by pointing out counter-examples: there are many, many private schools which are able to educate students to superior levels in all of the basics.
We're talking half as much funding and less.Do you have documentary evidence of even one private school taking in half as much money as a nearby public school and outperforming it?
Comparisons of widely different geographic and demographic areas don't count; that's called cherry-picking your data.
While it's certainly true that the average private school outperforms similarly situated public schools, almost all of these private schools take in more funding per pupil AND have the selection bias of families whose parents are more motivated towards education than the local average.The cause for government school failure in the US is not due to a lack of funding.
That's an excuse, and pushes the blame from the cause.
Again, evidence please?
In statistical or logical form, not just your assertion.The cause is that they're government schools, with strict top-down models they must adhere to, and do not take the individual student in mind.
Schools have to do well on standardized tests, yadda yadda.
It's all a huge drain to actual education, and has been so, progressively for over 60 years now.So how come every single country out-performing us in education does so through government schools?
Does your explanation not fly in the face of 100\% of available evidence?
Yeah, private schools outperform public schools, but only because they skim off the cream of the crop of students and charge an arm and a leg, while leaving the public school system to take everyone else.
Try educating all of society through private schools.
Just try it.
I dare you.
And until you've found a test case where that works, I want reasonable funding for the system we know can work.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705682</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706764</id>
	<title>Thinking about nationalities in research is stupid</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263046500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Results get \_published\_.<br>Who cares who is reasearching stuff in which country?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Results get \ _published \ _.Who cares who is reasearching stuff in which country ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Results get \_published\_.Who cares who is reasearching stuff in which country?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705738</id>
	<title>Re:We are asking the same in India</title>
	<author>AardvarkCelery</author>
	<datestamp>1263029760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>As a leader, it is the responsibility of a country like US to help everyone grow. If the US does not demonstrate leadership traits, someone else will. Leadership is not simply about more money/resources/power. It is about being a "leader" and behaving like one.</p></div><p>Hogwash.  China and India are directly competing with the United States on several levels.  China builds weapons specifically targeted at the United States.  Frequently, the weapons are based on stolen US technology.</p><p>What logic says we have to help our competitors <i>grow</i>???</p><p>(Granted, our relationship with India is <i>far</i> simpler and more cordial than our awkward tie-up with China, but there's still enough competition in some areas to take notice.)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As a leader , it is the responsibility of a country like US to help everyone grow .
If the US does not demonstrate leadership traits , someone else will .
Leadership is not simply about more money/resources/power .
It is about being a " leader " and behaving like one.Hogwash .
China and India are directly competing with the United States on several levels .
China builds weapons specifically targeted at the United States .
Frequently , the weapons are based on stolen US technology.What logic says we have to help our competitors grow ? ? ?
( Granted , our relationship with India is far simpler and more cordial than our awkward tie-up with China , but there 's still enough competition in some areas to take notice .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a leader, it is the responsibility of a country like US to help everyone grow.
If the US does not demonstrate leadership traits, someone else will.
Leadership is not simply about more money/resources/power.
It is about being a "leader" and behaving like one.Hogwash.
China and India are directly competing with the United States on several levels.
China builds weapons specifically targeted at the United States.
Frequently, the weapons are based on stolen US technology.What logic says we have to help our competitors grow???
(Granted, our relationship with India is far simpler and more cordial than our awkward tie-up with China, but there's still enough competition in some areas to take notice.
)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705594</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706998</id>
	<title>America needs to quit funding others</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263049620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>America needs to provide more funding for Americans (or just western nations). The fact is, that many of these scientist will go back to china and take some very critical science back with them. Even now, this whole thing is a farce. America pays about 3/4 or more of the Chinese student's pay, and then China came in and paid about 1/4 or less.</htmltext>
<tokenext>America needs to provide more funding for Americans ( or just western nations ) .
The fact is , that many of these scientist will go back to china and take some very critical science back with them .
Even now , this whole thing is a farce .
America pays about 3/4 or more of the Chinese student 's pay , and then China came in and paid about 1/4 or less .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>America needs to provide more funding for Americans (or just western nations).
The fact is, that many of these scientist will go back to china and take some very critical science back with them.
Even now, this whole thing is a farce.
America pays about 3/4 or more of the Chinese student's pay, and then China came in and paid about 1/4 or less.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705452</id>
	<title>Re:probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263068580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Agreed, PdD students are not paid it is not an investment.  They basically work for free and are given a small weekly allowance so that they can afford coffee, carbs and accommodation... Think how much money American universities have made off the research of their PhD students.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed , PdD students are not paid it is not an investment .
They basically work for free and are given a small weekly allowance so that they can afford coffee , carbs and accommodation... Think how much money American universities have made off the research of their PhD students .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed, PdD students are not paid it is not an investment.
They basically work for free and are given a small weekly allowance so that they can afford coffee, carbs and accommodation... Think how much money American universities have made off the research of their PhD students.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705356</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706778</id>
	<title>Reverse Brain Drain</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263046740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I came over in the 90's with my Diploma in Telecommunications. Back in the days it looked like I could excel at work, and build a family and live comfortably.</p><p>However it turned out that I am struggling month to month to pay the bills. average wages went down, living expenses went up. So by now I see that my friends in Germany have a much easier life and I wonder why I made my trip at all.</p><p>Looking back it was not worth it and I would much rather be in a country where I could have a better life even if the amount of money I earn is less.</p><p>I believe it is all about standard of living and if the US is squeezing ever penny out of students to receive a diploma and then they only find a job that is barely enough to cover monthly expenditures, no savings, no health care, no security, then you start to see your future much brighter in other countries where you have more security built into the system.</p><p>So bottom line is that if corporate America would man up and pay enough those people would feel more secure, and would stay.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I came over in the 90 's with my Diploma in Telecommunications .
Back in the days it looked like I could excel at work , and build a family and live comfortably.However it turned out that I am struggling month to month to pay the bills .
average wages went down , living expenses went up .
So by now I see that my friends in Germany have a much easier life and I wonder why I made my trip at all.Looking back it was not worth it and I would much rather be in a country where I could have a better life even if the amount of money I earn is less.I believe it is all about standard of living and if the US is squeezing ever penny out of students to receive a diploma and then they only find a job that is barely enough to cover monthly expenditures , no savings , no health care , no security , then you start to see your future much brighter in other countries where you have more security built into the system.So bottom line is that if corporate America would man up and pay enough those people would feel more secure , and would stay .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I came over in the 90's with my Diploma in Telecommunications.
Back in the days it looked like I could excel at work, and build a family and live comfortably.However it turned out that I am struggling month to month to pay the bills.
average wages went down, living expenses went up.
So by now I see that my friends in Germany have a much easier life and I wonder why I made my trip at all.Looking back it was not worth it and I would much rather be in a country where I could have a better life even if the amount of money I earn is less.I believe it is all about standard of living and if the US is squeezing ever penny out of students to receive a diploma and then they only find a job that is barely enough to cover monthly expenditures, no savings, no health care, no security, then you start to see your future much brighter in other countries where you have more security built into the system.So bottom line is that if corporate America would man up and pay enough those people would feel more secure, and would stay.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705550</id>
	<title>Re:I predict a boom in Chinese research.</title>
	<author>15Bit</author>
	<datestamp>1263069960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>My experience echoes this - i review for a number of materials science journals and i've noticed a steady increase in the quality of work coming from the chinese universities. Its becoming well written (in english, which is not easy for them i think) and increasingly relevant. I would predict that before long they will need us less than we need them.

The only case of blatant cheating (copying and pasting "nano particles" all over a SEM picture) came from india, not china.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My experience echoes this - i review for a number of materials science journals and i 've noticed a steady increase in the quality of work coming from the chinese universities .
Its becoming well written ( in english , which is not easy for them i think ) and increasingly relevant .
I would predict that before long they will need us less than we need them .
The only case of blatant cheating ( copying and pasting " nano particles " all over a SEM picture ) came from india , not china .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My experience echoes this - i review for a number of materials science journals and i've noticed a steady increase in the quality of work coming from the chinese universities.
Its becoming well written (in english, which is not easy for them i think) and increasingly relevant.
I would predict that before long they will need us less than we need them.
The only case of blatant cheating (copying and pasting "nano particles" all over a SEM picture) came from india, not china.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705472</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705750</id>
	<title>(+) infuluence of USA students on China</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263029880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why dont any of you think like this?</p><p>Educated Chinesee people who spent their youth in USA can make a positive difference from POV of USA in China. I mean those phd guys can become good infuluences on China regarding USA~China relations. Next time someone calls "capitilist pig", they may say "no, you are wrong. I was there"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why dont any of you think like this ? Educated Chinesee people who spent their youth in USA can make a positive difference from POV of USA in China .
I mean those phd guys can become good infuluences on China regarding USA ~ China relations .
Next time someone calls " capitilist pig " , they may say " no , you are wrong .
I was there "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why dont any of you think like this?Educated Chinesee people who spent their youth in USA can make a positive difference from POV of USA in China.
I mean those phd guys can become good infuluences on China regarding USA~China relations.
Next time someone calls "capitilist pig", they may say "no, you are wrong.
I was there"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705764</id>
	<title>Re:Fixed the story for you</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263030060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So...once someone works for an American company, it becomes unethical for them to work in any other country is it? Self pity much?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So...once someone works for an American company , it becomes unethical for them to work in any other country is it ?
Self pity much ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So...once someone works for an American company, it becomes unethical for them to work in any other country is it?
Self pity much?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705408</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706108</id>
	<title>Re:We are asking the same in India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263035400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>As a leader, it is the responsibility of a country like US to help everyone grow. If the US does not demonstrate leadership traits, someone else will. </p></div><p>Right, because if anything, history is flush with leading powers failing due to their refusal to help their rivals!</p><p>Get out of the clouds and pick up a history book- global politics and commerce were never driven by The Golden Rule.  It's as ruthless a race as any.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As a leader , it is the responsibility of a country like US to help everyone grow .
If the US does not demonstrate leadership traits , someone else will .
Right , because if anything , history is flush with leading powers failing due to their refusal to help their rivals ! Get out of the clouds and pick up a history book- global politics and commerce were never driven by The Golden Rule .
It 's as ruthless a race as any .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a leader, it is the responsibility of a country like US to help everyone grow.
If the US does not demonstrate leadership traits, someone else will.
Right, because if anything, history is flush with leading powers failing due to their refusal to help their rivals!Get out of the clouds and pick up a history book- global politics and commerce were never driven by The Golden Rule.
It's as ruthless a race as any.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705594</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30709200</id>
	<title>Re:The Worm Turns</title>
	<author>Grishnakh</author>
	<datestamp>1263070380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Education in the USA is NOT underfunded by any means.  There's plenty of statistics available showing how much the USA spends per pupil compared to other countries, and it's not deficient.  It's typical liberal thinking to say schools in the US are underfunded, and that throwing more money at a problem will somehow fix it.</p><p>There's several problems with US public education, and money isn't one of them.  One is the teacher's unions, which serve only to keep terrible teachers around and discourage good ones from going into the profession.  One is the bad administrations.  One is the poor teacher pay in many districts (no, this wouldn't be fixed by more funding; the money is being wasted somewhere else, such as administrators' salaries).  One is the lack of discipline and all the bad students who are not expelled from the system, preventing other kids from learning.  One is the constant latching onto stupid educational trends like "lattice multiplication" instead of teaching the basics (the 3 Rs) properly.  One is the insane amounts of money wasted on Microsoft software.</p><p>US public education needs a massive overhaul, and just throwing money at it won't make it better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Education in the USA is NOT underfunded by any means .
There 's plenty of statistics available showing how much the USA spends per pupil compared to other countries , and it 's not deficient .
It 's typical liberal thinking to say schools in the US are underfunded , and that throwing more money at a problem will somehow fix it.There 's several problems with US public education , and money is n't one of them .
One is the teacher 's unions , which serve only to keep terrible teachers around and discourage good ones from going into the profession .
One is the bad administrations .
One is the poor teacher pay in many districts ( no , this would n't be fixed by more funding ; the money is being wasted somewhere else , such as administrators ' salaries ) .
One is the lack of discipline and all the bad students who are not expelled from the system , preventing other kids from learning .
One is the constant latching onto stupid educational trends like " lattice multiplication " instead of teaching the basics ( the 3 Rs ) properly .
One is the insane amounts of money wasted on Microsoft software.US public education needs a massive overhaul , and just throwing money at it wo n't make it better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Education in the USA is NOT underfunded by any means.
There's plenty of statistics available showing how much the USA spends per pupil compared to other countries, and it's not deficient.
It's typical liberal thinking to say schools in the US are underfunded, and that throwing more money at a problem will somehow fix it.There's several problems with US public education, and money isn't one of them.
One is the teacher's unions, which serve only to keep terrible teachers around and discourage good ones from going into the profession.
One is the bad administrations.
One is the poor teacher pay in many districts (no, this wouldn't be fixed by more funding; the money is being wasted somewhere else, such as administrators' salaries).
One is the lack of discipline and all the bad students who are not expelled from the system, preventing other kids from learning.
One is the constant latching onto stupid educational trends like "lattice multiplication" instead of teaching the basics (the 3 Rs) properly.
One is the insane amounts of money wasted on Microsoft software.US public education needs a massive overhaul, and just throwing money at it won't make it better.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705446</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30711948</id>
	<title>Re:The Worm Turns</title>
	<author>Grishnakh</author>
	<datestamp>1263051420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem isn't that "government" is bad.  The problem is that the U.S. government is bad.  Sure, when a well-run small country like Switzerland sets up a school system (or just about anything else it seems), they seem to do a pretty decent job of it without enormous amounts of corruption and graft getting in the way.  When the U.S. government tries anything like this, it's an expensive disaster.</p><p>Why do you think American citizens are so dead-set against government-run healthcare?  Because everything else the government touches over here turns to shit.  We have zero confidence that <b>our</b> government would do it right.</p><p>It's too bad, with all the corporate outsourcing going on these days, that we can't outsource our own government.  Someone else could probably do a much better job than we can.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is n't that " government " is bad .
The problem is that the U.S. government is bad .
Sure , when a well-run small country like Switzerland sets up a school system ( or just about anything else it seems ) , they seem to do a pretty decent job of it without enormous amounts of corruption and graft getting in the way .
When the U.S. government tries anything like this , it 's an expensive disaster.Why do you think American citizens are so dead-set against government-run healthcare ?
Because everything else the government touches over here turns to shit .
We have zero confidence that our government would do it right.It 's too bad , with all the corporate outsourcing going on these days , that we ca n't outsource our own government .
Someone else could probably do a much better job than we can .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem isn't that "government" is bad.
The problem is that the U.S. government is bad.
Sure, when a well-run small country like Switzerland sets up a school system (or just about anything else it seems), they seem to do a pretty decent job of it without enormous amounts of corruption and graft getting in the way.
When the U.S. government tries anything like this, it's an expensive disaster.Why do you think American citizens are so dead-set against government-run healthcare?
Because everything else the government touches over here turns to shit.
We have zero confidence that our government would do it right.It's too bad, with all the corporate outsourcing going on these days, that we can't outsource our own government.
Someone else could probably do a much better job than we can.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706042</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706670</id>
	<title>The best science and jobs?</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1263045060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The best science and the most intellectually stimulating jobs are in the US.</p></div><p>That&rsquo;s the thing. Soon they won&rsquo;t. Because the Chinese government is working hard, to get up to US level, and the US government is working hard, to get down to China&rdquo;s level.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The best science and the most intellectually stimulating jobs are in the US.That    s the thing .
Soon they won    t .
Because the Chinese government is working hard , to get up to US level , and the US government is working hard , to get down to China    s level .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The best science and the most intellectually stimulating jobs are in the US.That’s the thing.
Soon they won’t.
Because the Chinese government is working hard, to get up to US level, and the US government is working hard, to get down to China”s level.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707602</id>
	<title>Re:probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>quadelirus</author>
	<datestamp>1263056280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Thank you, Trepidity. I got all fired up about the OP and was going to say roughly the same thing. As a graduate student in the sciences, I can tell you that my stipend is not even remotely out of altruism. I get payed by the university for 20 hours of work a week to work on research and do TA duties. I can tell you that I'm currently working about 60 hours a week on research alone. Many of the chinese graduate students that I know put in at least as much, they tend to be very hard working. And we don't do it simply because we love the material. There is a lot of pressure from above to be working this hard.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Thank you , Trepidity .
I got all fired up about the OP and was going to say roughly the same thing .
As a graduate student in the sciences , I can tell you that my stipend is not even remotely out of altruism .
I get payed by the university for 20 hours of work a week to work on research and do TA duties .
I can tell you that I 'm currently working about 60 hours a week on research alone .
Many of the chinese graduate students that I know put in at least as much , they tend to be very hard working .
And we do n't do it simply because we love the material .
There is a lot of pressure from above to be working this hard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thank you, Trepidity.
I got all fired up about the OP and was going to say roughly the same thing.
As a graduate student in the sciences, I can tell you that my stipend is not even remotely out of altruism.
I get payed by the university for 20 hours of work a week to work on research and do TA duties.
I can tell you that I'm currently working about 60 hours a week on research alone.
Many of the chinese graduate students that I know put in at least as much, they tend to be very hard working.
And we don't do it simply because we love the material.
There is a lot of pressure from above to be working this hard.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705356</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30711924</id>
	<title>Re:The Worm Turns</title>
	<author>xirusmom</author>
	<datestamp>1263051180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Top-down models? I do not know the Chinese system but I would guess it is pretty much "top-down"as well. Maybe that is a problem but not the main reason US schools are failing. I think the main reason, is self-indulgence, parents who are not interested in their kid's education and expect the school will do the entire job alone. That will never happen. Behavior, attitude towards life and education comes from home, not from schools.  Plus, a culture where we praise criminals who write songs about beating people up or worse (and make a lot of money from it), professors who are paid crap so the school can pay millions to football coaches, I can go on and on... but the bottom line is: if people do not value education, individually or as a nation, the system will fail.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Top-down models ?
I do not know the Chinese system but I would guess it is pretty much " top-down " as well .
Maybe that is a problem but not the main reason US schools are failing .
I think the main reason , is self-indulgence , parents who are not interested in their kid 's education and expect the school will do the entire job alone .
That will never happen .
Behavior , attitude towards life and education comes from home , not from schools .
Plus , a culture where we praise criminals who write songs about beating people up or worse ( and make a lot of money from it ) , professors who are paid crap so the school can pay millions to football coaches , I can go on and on... but the bottom line is : if people do not value education , individually or as a nation , the system will fail .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Top-down models?
I do not know the Chinese system but I would guess it is pretty much "top-down"as well.
Maybe that is a problem but not the main reason US schools are failing.
I think the main reason, is self-indulgence, parents who are not interested in their kid's education and expect the school will do the entire job alone.
That will never happen.
Behavior, attitude towards life and education comes from home, not from schools.
Plus, a culture where we praise criminals who write songs about beating people up or worse (and make a lot of money from it), professors who are paid crap so the school can pay millions to football coaches, I can go on and on... but the bottom line is: if people do not value education, individually or as a nation, the system will fail.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705682</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705812</id>
	<title>Re:Simple question...simple answer.</title>
	<author>Totenglocke</author>
	<datestamp>1263030720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Grad students don't have to reside in North America to do good....get over it.</p></div><p>It has nothing to do with their education and everything to do with taxpayers money being used (in the form of grants) to pay for that education.  But apparently you're just one of the many billions who think that the US exists solely to be the global sugar daddy.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Grad students do n't have to reside in North America to do good....get over it.It has nothing to do with their education and everything to do with taxpayers money being used ( in the form of grants ) to pay for that education .
But apparently you 're just one of the many billions who think that the US exists solely to be the global sugar daddy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Grad students don't have to reside in North America to do good....get over it.It has nothing to do with their education and everything to do with taxpayers money being used (in the form of grants) to pay for that education.
But apparently you're just one of the many billions who think that the US exists solely to be the global sugar daddy.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705368</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706510</id>
	<title>from the other side of the fence</title>
	<author>vacarul</author>
	<datestamp>1263042000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere?"<br>
<br>
or from this side:<br>
<br>
Does it make sense to invest in their 0-18 years only to find out they want to emigrate to US?</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere ?
" or from this side : Does it make sense to invest in their 0-18 years only to find out they want to emigrate to US ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere?
"

or from this side:

Does it make sense to invest in their 0-18 years only to find out they want to emigrate to US?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706710</id>
	<title>Re:I think the worse problem is the other way arou</title>
	<author>Tellarin</author>
	<datestamp>1263045720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree with you and I also know people that have this happen to them, so they are now doing research in other countries.</p><p>What I think is interesting is that US policy always (officially) favours an open market and competition. But in this area (grad-school-educated people) they have these weird protectionist rules. It is not as if the US even has a lot of unemployed PhDs laying around to begin with...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with you and I also know people that have this happen to them , so they are now doing research in other countries.What I think is interesting is that US policy always ( officially ) favours an open market and competition .
But in this area ( grad-school-educated people ) they have these weird protectionist rules .
It is not as if the US even has a lot of unemployed PhDs laying around to begin with.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with you and I also know people that have this happen to them, so they are now doing research in other countries.What I think is interesting is that US policy always (officially) favours an open market and competition.
But in this area (grad-school-educated people) they have these weird protectionist rules.
It is not as if the US even has a lot of unemployed PhDs laying around to begin with...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30708636</id>
	<title>Re:Not wanted in the US</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263065760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't let the door hit you on the way out.  Your tuition is paid for by your government.  Your car is paid for.  Your beer money for something other than Snow beer is paid for by your government.  You have special groups who are dedicated to finding ways to get loans and once done with college, head home and not have to pay them.  Us Americans have to pay either by working, or taking large student loans and mortgaging our future for what you get for free.</p><p>You also get priority in undergraduate classes, and are ahead of everyone but veterans for graduate work due to "diversity quotas".  Most T1 universities, if you take a look at the engineering or hard sciences, almost all students are foreign exchange, getting taught off the US taxpayer dollar for free, and for every one of you, some American cannot get admitted and has to go to a lesser school (which means come job time, your degree trumps theirs).  Oh, don't give me the BS either about how smarter you are.  American high schools are wrecks due to internecine politics and at best a high school student is going to learn how to be a good consumer and buy when told to.  You get a free head start in American schools because you only have to sprint the last 10 meters of a 100 meter race when it comes to jumping through hoops for admissions.</p><p>So, you get your education for free (paid for by your motherland or fatherland), better placement than US citizens because of your non-citizen status, guaranteed jobs with I9, freedom from having to pay taxes from the US or your native country, and YOU ARE BITCHING?  Ask the college grads who have to enlist in the armed forces as their only way to make any type of living how shitty you have it.</p><p>To boot, with your *free* education from a country which puts you ahead of their own taxpayers, you can work for less than Americans who have to work for more in order to pay their student loans off.  Which means you have more income to spent on anything you want.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't let the door hit you on the way out .
Your tuition is paid for by your government .
Your car is paid for .
Your beer money for something other than Snow beer is paid for by your government .
You have special groups who are dedicated to finding ways to get loans and once done with college , head home and not have to pay them .
Us Americans have to pay either by working , or taking large student loans and mortgaging our future for what you get for free.You also get priority in undergraduate classes , and are ahead of everyone but veterans for graduate work due to " diversity quotas " .
Most T1 universities , if you take a look at the engineering or hard sciences , almost all students are foreign exchange , getting taught off the US taxpayer dollar for free , and for every one of you , some American can not get admitted and has to go to a lesser school ( which means come job time , your degree trumps theirs ) .
Oh , do n't give me the BS either about how smarter you are .
American high schools are wrecks due to internecine politics and at best a high school student is going to learn how to be a good consumer and buy when told to .
You get a free head start in American schools because you only have to sprint the last 10 meters of a 100 meter race when it comes to jumping through hoops for admissions.So , you get your education for free ( paid for by your motherland or fatherland ) , better placement than US citizens because of your non-citizen status , guaranteed jobs with I9 , freedom from having to pay taxes from the US or your native country , and YOU ARE BITCHING ?
Ask the college grads who have to enlist in the armed forces as their only way to make any type of living how shitty you have it.To boot , with your * free * education from a country which puts you ahead of their own taxpayers , you can work for less than Americans who have to work for more in order to pay their student loans off .
Which means you have more income to spent on anything you want .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Your tuition is paid for by your government.
Your car is paid for.
Your beer money for something other than Snow beer is paid for by your government.
You have special groups who are dedicated to finding ways to get loans and once done with college, head home and not have to pay them.
Us Americans have to pay either by working, or taking large student loans and mortgaging our future for what you get for free.You also get priority in undergraduate classes, and are ahead of everyone but veterans for graduate work due to "diversity quotas".
Most T1 universities, if you take a look at the engineering or hard sciences, almost all students are foreign exchange, getting taught off the US taxpayer dollar for free, and for every one of you, some American cannot get admitted and has to go to a lesser school (which means come job time, your degree trumps theirs).
Oh, don't give me the BS either about how smarter you are.
American high schools are wrecks due to internecine politics and at best a high school student is going to learn how to be a good consumer and buy when told to.
You get a free head start in American schools because you only have to sprint the last 10 meters of a 100 meter race when it comes to jumping through hoops for admissions.So, you get your education for free (paid for by your motherland or fatherland), better placement than US citizens because of your non-citizen status, guaranteed jobs with I9, freedom from having to pay taxes from the US or your native country, and YOU ARE BITCHING?
Ask the college grads who have to enlist in the armed forces as their only way to make any type of living how shitty you have it.To boot, with your *free* education from a country which puts you ahead of their own taxpayers, you can work for less than Americans who have to work for more in order to pay their student loans off.
Which means you have more income to spent on anything you want.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706088</id>
	<title>Re:Simple question...simple answer.</title>
	<author>MidnightBrewer</author>
	<datestamp>1263035100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree. The original poster expresses bad-manager sentiment; if I train my employees, they might get so good that they'll leave for greener pastures. If the work is good and the work environment friendly, people are more likely to stick around.  If you make them feel like their own boss is their worst enemy, then don't be too surprised if your employees start leaving in droves. Train the people you hire; nobody said life had any guarantees, and the best-case scenario is that your own employees learn more and perform better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree .
The original poster expresses bad-manager sentiment ; if I train my employees , they might get so good that they 'll leave for greener pastures .
If the work is good and the work environment friendly , people are more likely to stick around .
If you make them feel like their own boss is their worst enemy , then do n't be too surprised if your employees start leaving in droves .
Train the people you hire ; nobody said life had any guarantees , and the best-case scenario is that your own employees learn more and perform better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree.
The original poster expresses bad-manager sentiment; if I train my employees, they might get so good that they'll leave for greener pastures.
If the work is good and the work environment friendly, people are more likely to stick around.
If you make them feel like their own boss is their worst enemy, then don't be too surprised if your employees start leaving in droves.
Train the people you hire; nobody said life had any guarantees, and the best-case scenario is that your own employees learn more and perform better.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705368</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707638</id>
	<title>Re:probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>quadelirus</author>
	<datestamp>1263056640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Agreed, but much fewer graduate students receive government funding--most are supported by their universities, or in my field directly by their advisors, and also lots of government funding requires citizenship.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed , but much fewer graduate students receive government funding--most are supported by their universities , or in my field directly by their advisors , and also lots of government funding requires citizenship .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed, but much fewer graduate students receive government funding--most are supported by their universities, or in my field directly by their advisors, and also lots of government funding requires citizenship.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705544</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30711154</id>
	<title>Re:We are asking the same in India</title>
	<author>SpaceToast</author>
	<datestamp>1263045240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>India tried a similar scheme recently, which <a href="http://www.nature.com/news/2009/091109/full/462152a.html" title="nature.com" rel="nofollow">unravelled rather spectacularly</a> [nature.com].</p><p>American-trained scientists simply expect a greater degree of autonomy than more traditional cultures expect of them. Overturning the work of an established scientist is how one makes a career in the U.S. In India, this can be a career-ending move.</p><p>Is China, a philosophically Confucian Communist culture with an even stronger concept of "face" than India, going to be more or less successful at this scheme? I have my doubts.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>India tried a similar scheme recently , which unravelled rather spectacularly [ nature.com ] .American-trained scientists simply expect a greater degree of autonomy than more traditional cultures expect of them .
Overturning the work of an established scientist is how one makes a career in the U.S. In India , this can be a career-ending move.Is China , a philosophically Confucian Communist culture with an even stronger concept of " face " than India , going to be more or less successful at this scheme ?
I have my doubts .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>India tried a similar scheme recently, which unravelled rather spectacularly [nature.com].American-trained scientists simply expect a greater degree of autonomy than more traditional cultures expect of them.
Overturning the work of an established scientist is how one makes a career in the U.S. In India, this can be a career-ending move.Is China, a philosophically Confucian Communist culture with an even stronger concept of "face" than India, going to be more or less successful at this scheme?
I have my doubts.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705594</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705614</id>
	<title>they go home - Because there is no Visas to stay</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263027840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I know from personal experience that it has become increasingly difficult to stay in the US (or Immigrate) since the late 90es.</p><p>At this time, even highly skilled individuals with several post graduate degrees have no chance to get a Visa and move to the US.</p><p>Unless a student was lucky and managed to marry a US citizen during their school time, they have NO OTHER CHOICE than to leave the US once their student visa expires, and they cannot get a work (H1) visa in time.</p><p>Supposedly this is all for your own good, to protect the country and the domestic job market.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I know from personal experience that it has become increasingly difficult to stay in the US ( or Immigrate ) since the late 90es.At this time , even highly skilled individuals with several post graduate degrees have no chance to get a Visa and move to the US.Unless a student was lucky and managed to marry a US citizen during their school time , they have NO OTHER CHOICE than to leave the US once their student visa expires , and they can not get a work ( H1 ) visa in time.Supposedly this is all for your own good , to protect the country and the domestic job market .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know from personal experience that it has become increasingly difficult to stay in the US (or Immigrate) since the late 90es.At this time, even highly skilled individuals with several post graduate degrees have no chance to get a Visa and move to the US.Unless a student was lucky and managed to marry a US citizen during their school time, they have NO OTHER CHOICE than to leave the US once their student visa expires, and they cannot get a work (H1) visa in time.Supposedly this is all for your own good, to protect the country and the domestic job market.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30715728</id>
	<title>i've been saying it for years</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263151200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>stop training foreigners just so they'll leave the US and go to their home country and apply their US taught skills there, slowly dropping the edge of the US. This practice needs to stop. There's many US citizens who deserve those top US college seats rather than giving them away to foreigners, especially those from communist countries. How smart is that? Who's the idiot who allowed all this to happen in the first place?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>stop training foreigners just so they 'll leave the US and go to their home country and apply their US taught skills there , slowly dropping the edge of the US .
This practice needs to stop .
There 's many US citizens who deserve those top US college seats rather than giving them away to foreigners , especially those from communist countries .
How smart is that ?
Who 's the idiot who allowed all this to happen in the first place ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>stop training foreigners just so they'll leave the US and go to their home country and apply their US taught skills there, slowly dropping the edge of the US.
This practice needs to stop.
There's many US citizens who deserve those top US college seats rather than giving them away to foreigners, especially those from communist countries.
How smart is that?
Who's the idiot who allowed all this to happen in the first place?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705736</id>
	<title>Re:probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>Trepidity</author>
	<datestamp>1263029700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They get a lot of their ROI in direct research, though, not just in the nebulous future-production-of-engineers. If an NSF grant spends $200,000 paying the stipends+tuition of 5 students, and those 5 students end up producing a few journal articles, and once in a while those sets of journal articles include important results, he NSF's gotten its $200,000 worth.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They get a lot of their ROI in direct research , though , not just in the nebulous future-production-of-engineers .
If an NSF grant spends $ 200,000 paying the stipends + tuition of 5 students , and those 5 students end up producing a few journal articles , and once in a while those sets of journal articles include important results , he NSF 's gotten its $ 200,000 worth .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They get a lot of their ROI in direct research, though, not just in the nebulous future-production-of-engineers.
If an NSF grant spends $200,000 paying the stipends+tuition of 5 students, and those 5 students end up producing a few journal articles, and once in a while those sets of journal articles include important results, he NSF's gotten its $200,000 worth.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705544</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706762</id>
	<title>Re:probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>AHuxley</author>
	<datestamp>1263046500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>US government's view was to lure anyone from around the world to the USA.<br>
Show them how good life is when free and happy, then send them back.<br>
At home they where to infect the locals with pro US views.<br>
Better yet rise up the ranks of their private or public sector and buy made in the USA over a long productive life.<br>
Why do you think so many world leaders have very expensive US degrees?<br>The problem is China has out smarted the US.<br>They got their best and brightest near the US academics and learned all they could.<br>What works with funding, what works in the private sector, when you need cash and when you need decades.<br>What needs one person to make the leap or a team.<br>All the generations of US brilliance has been noted, reversed and sent back to China over a few short decades.<br>For the short term aim of cold war politics and anti communist education, the US gave it all away via its top universities.</htmltext>
<tokenext>US government 's view was to lure anyone from around the world to the USA .
Show them how good life is when free and happy , then send them back .
At home they where to infect the locals with pro US views .
Better yet rise up the ranks of their private or public sector and buy made in the USA over a long productive life .
Why do you think so many world leaders have very expensive US degrees ? The problem is China has out smarted the US.They got their best and brightest near the US academics and learned all they could.What works with funding , what works in the private sector , when you need cash and when you need decades.What needs one person to make the leap or a team.All the generations of US brilliance has been noted , reversed and sent back to China over a few short decades.For the short term aim of cold war politics and anti communist education , the US gave it all away via its top universities .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>US government's view was to lure anyone from around the world to the USA.
Show them how good life is when free and happy, then send them back.
At home they where to infect the locals with pro US views.
Better yet rise up the ranks of their private or public sector and buy made in the USA over a long productive life.
Why do you think so many world leaders have very expensive US degrees?The problem is China has out smarted the US.They got their best and brightest near the US academics and learned all they could.What works with funding, what works in the private sector, when you need cash and when you need decades.What needs one person to make the leap or a team.All the generations of US brilliance has been noted, reversed and sent back to China over a few short decades.For the short term aim of cold war politics and anti communist education, the US gave it all away via its top universities.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705544</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705650</id>
	<title>Re:I think the worse problem is the other way arou</title>
	<author>j1m+5n0w</author>
	<datestamp>1263028500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Here's where I think the main problem actually is: We actually send home some who do want to stay.</p></div></blockquote><p>I absolutely agree.  The NSF, DARPA, NIH, etc.. have paid for the education of many a foreign grad student, only to have them booted out of the country after they finish their degree.  (A lot of them end up moving to Canada.)

</p><p>Some of the grad students I knew had to do some crazy things like leave the country periodically, and then apply to get let back in, just because that's what the bureaucracy required.

</p><p> <a href="http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1033" title="phdcomics.com">The F-1 Process Explained</a> [phdcomics.com]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's where I think the main problem actually is : We actually send home some who do want to stay.I absolutely agree .
The NSF , DARPA , NIH , etc.. have paid for the education of many a foreign grad student , only to have them booted out of the country after they finish their degree .
( A lot of them end up moving to Canada .
) Some of the grad students I knew had to do some crazy things like leave the country periodically , and then apply to get let back in , just because that 's what the bureaucracy required .
The F-1 Process Explained [ phdcomics.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's where I think the main problem actually is: We actually send home some who do want to stay.I absolutely agree.
The NSF, DARPA, NIH, etc.. have paid for the education of many a foreign grad student, only to have them booted out of the country after they finish their degree.
(A lot of them end up moving to Canada.
)

Some of the grad students I knew had to do some crazy things like leave the country periodically, and then apply to get let back in, just because that's what the bureaucracy required.
The F-1 Process Explained [phdcomics.com]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707970</id>
	<title>Re:probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263059880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>NIH, NSF grants etc. are not available to temporary visa holders, which is what foreign students are.</p><p>In fact applying for a temporary visa (like a student visa) with intent to stay on afterwards is immigration fraud. As far as I can see the system is designed to use foreign students as a source of income for universities (if undergraduate) or as a source of cheap labour (if postgraduate) and then shove them out before they get any ideas of staying.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>NIH , NSF grants etc .
are not available to temporary visa holders , which is what foreign students are.In fact applying for a temporary visa ( like a student visa ) with intent to stay on afterwards is immigration fraud .
As far as I can see the system is designed to use foreign students as a source of income for universities ( if undergraduate ) or as a source of cheap labour ( if postgraduate ) and then shove them out before they get any ideas of staying .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>NIH, NSF grants etc.
are not available to temporary visa holders, which is what foreign students are.In fact applying for a temporary visa (like a student visa) with intent to stay on afterwards is immigration fraud.
As far as I can see the system is designed to use foreign students as a source of income for universities (if undergraduate) or as a source of cheap labour (if postgraduate) and then shove them out before they get any ideas of staying.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705544</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706986</id>
	<title>Re:What inducement would it take?</title>
	<author>koxkoxkox</author>
	<datestamp>1263049560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Like their family, an environment in their mother tongue, a culture they actually understand ? You have to understand that it is the US that have to sell something to make them stay. If the standards of living are the same (and it is the case right now for a lot of people), most of the Chinese students will prefer to come back to China. They did not came by love of American culture, but for the quality of the science and the experience of western civilization it gave them.</p><p>The Great Firewall is an annoyance, but minor for most Chinese, not many will choose to change their life based on it or a concept of "freedom" which does not have much influence in their everyday life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Like their family , an environment in their mother tongue , a culture they actually understand ?
You have to understand that it is the US that have to sell something to make them stay .
If the standards of living are the same ( and it is the case right now for a lot of people ) , most of the Chinese students will prefer to come back to China .
They did not came by love of American culture , but for the quality of the science and the experience of western civilization it gave them.The Great Firewall is an annoyance , but minor for most Chinese , not many will choose to change their life based on it or a concept of " freedom " which does not have much influence in their everyday life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Like their family, an environment in their mother tongue, a culture they actually understand ?
You have to understand that it is the US that have to sell something to make them stay.
If the standards of living are the same (and it is the case right now for a lot of people), most of the Chinese students will prefer to come back to China.
They did not came by love of American culture, but for the quality of the science and the experience of western civilization it gave them.The Great Firewall is an annoyance, but minor for most Chinese, not many will choose to change their life based on it or a concept of "freedom" which does not have much influence in their everyday life.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705558</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30714566</id>
	<title>Re:We are asking the same in India</title>
	<author>Shane dot H</author>
	<datestamp>1263140040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>(Granted, our relationship with India is <i>far</i> simpler and more cordial than our awkward tie-up with China, but there's still enough competition in some areas to take notice.)</p></div><p>You might want to rethink that one. Our relationship with India is complex, due to the added wrinkles of our close working relationship with their mortal enemy Pakistan. Arms deals, intelligence sharing, military aid, and economic aid for both countries has to be carefully managed with perceptions of bias or unfairness, all while we respect their sovereignty when combating extremism in both countries. And then the fact that India has violated the test ban treaty and was supposed to be subject to economic sanctions.
<br> <br>
Neither relationship is simple.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>( Granted , our relationship with India is far simpler and more cordial than our awkward tie-up with China , but there 's still enough competition in some areas to take notice .
) You might want to rethink that one .
Our relationship with India is complex , due to the added wrinkles of our close working relationship with their mortal enemy Pakistan .
Arms deals , intelligence sharing , military aid , and economic aid for both countries has to be carefully managed with perceptions of bias or unfairness , all while we respect their sovereignty when combating extremism in both countries .
And then the fact that India has violated the test ban treaty and was supposed to be subject to economic sanctions .
Neither relationship is simple .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>(Granted, our relationship with India is far simpler and more cordial than our awkward tie-up with China, but there's still enough competition in some areas to take notice.
)You might want to rethink that one.
Our relationship with India is complex, due to the added wrinkles of our close working relationship with their mortal enemy Pakistan.
Arms deals, intelligence sharing, military aid, and economic aid for both countries has to be carefully managed with perceptions of bias or unfairness, all while we respect their sovereignty when combating extremism in both countries.
And then the fact that India has violated the test ban treaty and was supposed to be subject to economic sanctions.
Neither relationship is simple.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706776</id>
	<title>Re:We are asking the same in India</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1263046740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The logic that says that this helps ourselves to grow!<br>It&rsquo;s called teamwork.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The logic that says that this helps ourselves to grow ! It    s called teamwork .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The logic that says that this helps ourselves to grow!It’s called teamwork.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706926</id>
	<title>Whatever.  Not really our problem</title>
	<author>smchris</author>
	<datestamp>1263048780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Our problem is why science has become so unattractive to U.S. students.  If our idiocracy depends on foreign brains, we deserve whatever comes our way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Our problem is why science has become so unattractive to U.S. students. If our idiocracy depends on foreign brains , we deserve whatever comes our way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Our problem is why science has become so unattractive to U.S. students.  If our idiocracy depends on foreign brains, we deserve whatever comes our way.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707984</id>
	<title>Re:Green card</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263059940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A second Canadian to second that motion. And I don't think it should stop there. There are many cases of professionals coming to Canada or the US and working in low wage jobs because of regulatory hurdles, etc, such as doctors and dentists.  And, why don't Canada and the US have a free labour agreement? Good, services and capital flow freely, but people don't. Why is that? well, it's because the rich benefit the most by having a segmented labour force by free flow of capital and goods/services, so they have arranged the so-called "free trade" that way. It's not free trade, it's negotiated trade.</p><p>In general, whether it'sChinese PhDs or Canadian/US workers, why the hell can't PEOPLE BE FREE???? Of ocurse with the caveats that you mention regarding safety. I say let the people go where they are most productive, conditional on public safety.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A second Canadian to second that motion .
And I do n't think it should stop there .
There are many cases of professionals coming to Canada or the US and working in low wage jobs because of regulatory hurdles , etc , such as doctors and dentists .
And , why do n't Canada and the US have a free labour agreement ?
Good , services and capital flow freely , but people do n't .
Why is that ?
well , it 's because the rich benefit the most by having a segmented labour force by free flow of capital and goods/services , so they have arranged the so-called " free trade " that way .
It 's not free trade , it 's negotiated trade.In general , whether it'sChinese PhDs or Canadian/US workers , why the hell ca n't PEOPLE BE FREE ? ? ? ?
Of ocurse with the caveats that you mention regarding safety .
I say let the people go where they are most productive , conditional on public safety .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A second Canadian to second that motion.
And I don't think it should stop there.
There are many cases of professionals coming to Canada or the US and working in low wage jobs because of regulatory hurdles, etc, such as doctors and dentists.
And, why don't Canada and the US have a free labour agreement?
Good, services and capital flow freely, but people don't.
Why is that?
well, it's because the rich benefit the most by having a segmented labour force by free flow of capital and goods/services, so they have arranged the so-called "free trade" that way.
It's not free trade, it's negotiated trade.In general, whether it'sChinese PhDs or Canadian/US workers, why the hell can't PEOPLE BE FREE????
Of ocurse with the caveats that you mention regarding safety.
I say let the people go where they are most productive, conditional on public safety.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30709532</id>
	<title>Re:Grapes turned sour?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263030180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>There is no reason to worry about the allegedly imminent Chinese dominance in science, because it just isn't happening.  I work in a lab at a top-10 American university that's headed by a Chinese immigrant.  She regularly goes back to China to recruit/vacation/collaborate and always returns with multiple fresh new horror stories about how backward research is there, even at their flagship universities.  In a lab in the US, if I want to make a solution I just do it and it's done in a few minutes.  If I want to make a solution in a Chinese lab, no matter how simple it is, it blows the entire afternoon.  Have to wash the glassware.  Have to hope nobody stole my stir bar.  Have to track down the person with the keys to the chemical cabinet.  Have to haul it across campus to the building that has the one autoclave for the whole fucking university.  Have to hope the chemicals are what they say they are, and not locally made counterfeit with massive impurities, a disturbingly common occurrence that a collaborator is currently dealing with.  That's just the short version of what it's like to do one thing that in the US is basic and trivial but utterly painful in China.  Besides the utter lack of infrastructure from a supply issue for simple bulk chemicals (equipment shortages are <i>hopeless</i>), there's also the absence of infrastructure for waste handling.  Look for the next few plagues to come from China:  they're building level three biohazard facilities in the middle of town, and at the same time a level one or two lab tosses out their garbage like it was just waste paper and it is immediately picked over by peasants.  One great story from the boss's last trip was seeing a peasant eat agar out of a petri dish.  University officials and professors all knew about it but nobody thought it was their problem.<br>
<br>
I could go on, but here's the point:  it doesn't matter how much China spends on it's top research programs.  They have a much larger, more expensive infrastructure problem.  Like starting from scratch an entire chemical industry.  Or instituting basic laboratory waste management and disposal plans.   Or getting serious about any sort of regulatory agency like our OSHA, EPA, FDA, USDA, NIST, ANSI etc. etc. ad nauseam and a functional court system to back up those regulations.  Currently they're at the Wild West patent medicine level of regulatory control.  Give them thirty years and yes things will improve and maybe their best will be competitive with our chronically underfunded and decaying public-in-name-only universities.  But it largely won't be due to spending on the universities.  It will be due to their building up their infrastructure while we continue to let ours decay.  No matter what, imminent Chinese scientific dominance is eminently bullshit.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is no reason to worry about the allegedly imminent Chinese dominance in science , because it just is n't happening .
I work in a lab at a top-10 American university that 's headed by a Chinese immigrant .
She regularly goes back to China to recruit/vacation/collaborate and always returns with multiple fresh new horror stories about how backward research is there , even at their flagship universities .
In a lab in the US , if I want to make a solution I just do it and it 's done in a few minutes .
If I want to make a solution in a Chinese lab , no matter how simple it is , it blows the entire afternoon .
Have to wash the glassware .
Have to hope nobody stole my stir bar .
Have to track down the person with the keys to the chemical cabinet .
Have to haul it across campus to the building that has the one autoclave for the whole fucking university .
Have to hope the chemicals are what they say they are , and not locally made counterfeit with massive impurities , a disturbingly common occurrence that a collaborator is currently dealing with .
That 's just the short version of what it 's like to do one thing that in the US is basic and trivial but utterly painful in China .
Besides the utter lack of infrastructure from a supply issue for simple bulk chemicals ( equipment shortages are hopeless ) , there 's also the absence of infrastructure for waste handling .
Look for the next few plagues to come from China : they 're building level three biohazard facilities in the middle of town , and at the same time a level one or two lab tosses out their garbage like it was just waste paper and it is immediately picked over by peasants .
One great story from the boss 's last trip was seeing a peasant eat agar out of a petri dish .
University officials and professors all knew about it but nobody thought it was their problem .
I could go on , but here 's the point : it does n't matter how much China spends on it 's top research programs .
They have a much larger , more expensive infrastructure problem .
Like starting from scratch an entire chemical industry .
Or instituting basic laboratory waste management and disposal plans .
Or getting serious about any sort of regulatory agency like our OSHA , EPA , FDA , USDA , NIST , ANSI etc .
etc. ad nauseam and a functional court system to back up those regulations .
Currently they 're at the Wild West patent medicine level of regulatory control .
Give them thirty years and yes things will improve and maybe their best will be competitive with our chronically underfunded and decaying public-in-name-only universities .
But it largely wo n't be due to spending on the universities .
It will be due to their building up their infrastructure while we continue to let ours decay .
No matter what , imminent Chinese scientific dominance is eminently bullshit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is no reason to worry about the allegedly imminent Chinese dominance in science, because it just isn't happening.
I work in a lab at a top-10 American university that's headed by a Chinese immigrant.
She regularly goes back to China to recruit/vacation/collaborate and always returns with multiple fresh new horror stories about how backward research is there, even at their flagship universities.
In a lab in the US, if I want to make a solution I just do it and it's done in a few minutes.
If I want to make a solution in a Chinese lab, no matter how simple it is, it blows the entire afternoon.
Have to wash the glassware.
Have to hope nobody stole my stir bar.
Have to track down the person with the keys to the chemical cabinet.
Have to haul it across campus to the building that has the one autoclave for the whole fucking university.
Have to hope the chemicals are what they say they are, and not locally made counterfeit with massive impurities, a disturbingly common occurrence that a collaborator is currently dealing with.
That's just the short version of what it's like to do one thing that in the US is basic and trivial but utterly painful in China.
Besides the utter lack of infrastructure from a supply issue for simple bulk chemicals (equipment shortages are hopeless), there's also the absence of infrastructure for waste handling.
Look for the next few plagues to come from China:  they're building level three biohazard facilities in the middle of town, and at the same time a level one or two lab tosses out their garbage like it was just waste paper and it is immediately picked over by peasants.
One great story from the boss's last trip was seeing a peasant eat agar out of a petri dish.
University officials and professors all knew about it but nobody thought it was their problem.
I could go on, but here's the point:  it doesn't matter how much China spends on it's top research programs.
They have a much larger, more expensive infrastructure problem.
Like starting from scratch an entire chemical industry.
Or instituting basic laboratory waste management and disposal plans.
Or getting serious about any sort of regulatory agency like our OSHA, EPA, FDA, USDA, NIST, ANSI etc.
etc. ad nauseam and a functional court system to back up those regulations.
Currently they're at the Wild West patent medicine level of regulatory control.
Give them thirty years and yes things will improve and maybe their best will be competitive with our chronically underfunded and decaying public-in-name-only universities.
But it largely won't be due to spending on the universities.
It will be due to their building up their infrastructure while we continue to let ours decay.
No matter what, imminent Chinese scientific dominance is eminently bullshit.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30709904</id>
	<title>Is this the Seventh Sign?</title>
	<author>LifesABeach</author>
	<datestamp>1263033960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>"But, if more Chinese students go back, it could damage the US's technology lead."</i>, the Chinese PH.D's are all going home to the middle kingdom.  Yup, that confirms it.  Not another new invention will be created, and the secret of making fantastic Pork Bun's will weaken this country into chaos.  Maybe I can get a job as a <a href="http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&amp;art=15072" title="asianews.it">steel worker</a> [asianews.it] over at the middle kingdom?</htmltext>
<tokenext>" But , if more Chinese students go back , it could damage the US 's technology lead .
" , the Chinese PH.D 's are all going home to the middle kingdom .
Yup , that confirms it .
Not another new invention will be created , and the secret of making fantastic Pork Bun 's will weaken this country into chaos .
Maybe I can get a job as a steel worker [ asianews.it ] over at the middle kingdom ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"But, if more Chinese students go back, it could damage the US's technology lead.
", the Chinese PH.D's are all going home to the middle kingdom.
Yup, that confirms it.
Not another new invention will be created, and the secret of making fantastic Pork Bun's will weaken this country into chaos.
Maybe I can get a job as a steel worker [asianews.it] over at the middle kingdom?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705956</id>
	<title>Re:I think the worse problem is the other way arou</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263033120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, most people that I know from China stay to get a Ph.D. because they don't want to go back home... but at the same time they can't get a visa/green card to stay here.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , most people that I know from China stay to get a Ph.D. because they do n't want to go back home... but at the same time they ca n't get a visa/green card to stay here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, most people that I know from China stay to get a Ph.D. because they don't want to go back home... but at the same time they can't get a visa/green card to stay here.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30709122</id>
	<title>Re:I think the worse problem is the other way arou</title>
	<author>Grishnakh</author>
	<datestamp>1263069720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's funny, because we send home smart people who would really contribute a lot to our economy, but we insist on keeping uneducated people who snuck over the border and if they don't become criminals, don't do anything useful besides landscaping.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's funny , because we send home smart people who would really contribute a lot to our economy , but we insist on keeping uneducated people who snuck over the border and if they do n't become criminals , do n't do anything useful besides landscaping .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's funny, because we send home smart people who would really contribute a lot to our economy, but we insist on keeping uneducated people who snuck over the border and if they don't become criminals, don't do anything useful besides landscaping.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30713722</id>
	<title>Re:We are asking the same in India</title>
	<author>Rexdude</author>
	<datestamp>1263124260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Hogwash. China <b>and India</b> are directly competing with the United States on several levels. China builds weapons specifically targeted at the United States. Frequently, the weapons are based on stolen US technology.</p></div><p>India? What does India compete with the US on? Outsourcing? Your companies are GIVING us the business! It's not like Walmart aisles are crowded with Indian products now are they?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hogwash .
China and India are directly competing with the United States on several levels .
China builds weapons specifically targeted at the United States .
Frequently , the weapons are based on stolen US technology.India ?
What does India compete with the US on ?
Outsourcing ? Your companies are GIVING us the business !
It 's not like Walmart aisles are crowded with Indian products now are they ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hogwash.
China and India are directly competing with the United States on several levels.
China builds weapons specifically targeted at the United States.
Frequently, the weapons are based on stolen US technology.India?
What does India compete with the US on?
Outsourcing? Your companies are GIVING us the business!
It's not like Walmart aisles are crowded with Indian products now are they?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707204</id>
	<title>It doesn't make sense, but it's too late</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263052020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It doesn't make sense to pay for their tuition only for them to return to China, but it also didn't make sense to allow our government to open the doors to imports from a country with such a bad anti democratic and human rights record either.</p><p>Now that the US and European economy has been exported to China (over the last thirty years or so) any government will find it damned hard to roll back the changes.</p><p>Bereft of a manufacturing base, and quickly falling behind in both defence and research, the US and EU have no solution to the problem.</p><p>You are going to find that CEOs over here, along with their brother politicians, increasingly eye the Chinese model of one party state with envy. It isn't China which will change; it is the west!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It does n't make sense to pay for their tuition only for them to return to China , but it also did n't make sense to allow our government to open the doors to imports from a country with such a bad anti democratic and human rights record either.Now that the US and European economy has been exported to China ( over the last thirty years or so ) any government will find it damned hard to roll back the changes.Bereft of a manufacturing base , and quickly falling behind in both defence and research , the US and EU have no solution to the problem.You are going to find that CEOs over here , along with their brother politicians , increasingly eye the Chinese model of one party state with envy .
It is n't China which will change ; it is the west !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It doesn't make sense to pay for their tuition only for them to return to China, but it also didn't make sense to allow our government to open the doors to imports from a country with such a bad anti democratic and human rights record either.Now that the US and European economy has been exported to China (over the last thirty years or so) any government will find it damned hard to roll back the changes.Bereft of a manufacturing base, and quickly falling behind in both defence and research, the US and EU have no solution to the problem.You are going to find that CEOs over here, along with their brother politicians, increasingly eye the Chinese model of one party state with envy.
It isn't China which will change; it is the west!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707868</id>
	<title>Re:probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>moosesocks</author>
	<datestamp>1263058860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've always wondered about this.  While I'm certainly not going to complain about America's desire to recruit the best and the brightest, I do question why we don't do more to <i>retain</i> the best and the brightest, particularly when they regularly have visa problems in spite of receiving a massively subsidized education.*</p><p>I briefly considered continuing my education outside the US, and very quickly concluded that we are <i>by far</i> more generous toward foreign students than most other developed nations.  The EU in particular wants nothing to do with you unless you're a citizen of one of their member states, or have more money than sense.**</p><p>*There's historic evidence to support this strategy -- it's often said that America made it to the moon because our German rocket scientists were better than Russia's German rocket scientists.</p><p>**This isn't necessarily true for undergraduate education.  I completed part of my undergrad in Europe, and received a top-notch education for less money than most state schools charge in the US.  I greatly regret my decision to return to the US to finish my degree so that I would receive a domestic qualification.  However, if you're pursuing a postgraduate degree in the sciences, you'd be nuts to pay a dime for it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've always wondered about this .
While I 'm certainly not going to complain about America 's desire to recruit the best and the brightest , I do question why we do n't do more to retain the best and the brightest , particularly when they regularly have visa problems in spite of receiving a massively subsidized education .
* I briefly considered continuing my education outside the US , and very quickly concluded that we are by far more generous toward foreign students than most other developed nations .
The EU in particular wants nothing to do with you unless you 're a citizen of one of their member states , or have more money than sense .
* * * There 's historic evidence to support this strategy -- it 's often said that America made it to the moon because our German rocket scientists were better than Russia 's German rocket scientists .
* * This is n't necessarily true for undergraduate education .
I completed part of my undergrad in Europe , and received a top-notch education for less money than most state schools charge in the US .
I greatly regret my decision to return to the US to finish my degree so that I would receive a domestic qualification .
However , if you 're pursuing a postgraduate degree in the sciences , you 'd be nuts to pay a dime for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've always wondered about this.
While I'm certainly not going to complain about America's desire to recruit the best and the brightest, I do question why we don't do more to retain the best and the brightest, particularly when they regularly have visa problems in spite of receiving a massively subsidized education.
*I briefly considered continuing my education outside the US, and very quickly concluded that we are by far more generous toward foreign students than most other developed nations.
The EU in particular wants nothing to do with you unless you're a citizen of one of their member states, or have more money than sense.
***There's historic evidence to support this strategy -- it's often said that America made it to the moon because our German rocket scientists were better than Russia's German rocket scientists.
**This isn't necessarily true for undergraduate education.
I completed part of my undergrad in Europe, and received a top-notch education for less money than most state schools charge in the US.
I greatly regret my decision to return to the US to finish my degree so that I would receive a domestic qualification.
However, if you're pursuing a postgraduate degree in the sciences, you'd be nuts to pay a dime for it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705544</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705990</id>
	<title>Re:Fixed the story for you</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263033600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are two assumptions in your sentence that could be discussed:<br>- American companies =&gt; Given than executives in major companies are more that often not Wasp but global leaders with often parents with cultural background in other countries than US, I wonder what is an American company.<br>- Second: If US have enough American PhD why does America lures Chinese students to study home?</p><p>I think it would have more economic sense to ask for local education and local employment. But no high profile student is supposed to live its life in the same community where he was student. Part of high education is to understand the complexity of our world and accept to be challenged.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are two assumptions in your sentence that could be discussed : - American companies = &gt; Given than executives in major companies are more that often not Wasp but global leaders with often parents with cultural background in other countries than US , I wonder what is an American company.- Second : If US have enough American PhD why does America lures Chinese students to study home ? I think it would have more economic sense to ask for local education and local employment .
But no high profile student is supposed to live its life in the same community where he was student .
Part of high education is to understand the complexity of our world and accept to be challenged .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are two assumptions in your sentence that could be discussed:- American companies =&gt; Given than executives in major companies are more that often not Wasp but global leaders with often parents with cultural background in other countries than US, I wonder what is an American company.- Second: If US have enough American PhD why does America lures Chinese students to study home?I think it would have more economic sense to ask for local education and local employment.
But no high profile student is supposed to live its life in the same community where he was student.
Part of high education is to understand the complexity of our world and accept to be challenged.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705408</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707646</id>
	<title>this is not a new problem</title>
	<author>buddyglass</author>
	<datestamp>1263056700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In the graduate CS department I was a part of in the late 90s, the problem was foreign students who would indicate that they intended to earn a Ph.D., get a fellowship that covered their first two years (during which it was typical to earn a Master's degree), then leave once they'd earned a Master's.  They didn't always go back to China, though; typically they got industry jobs in the U.S.</p><p>Interestingly, a large donor who almost singlehandedly funded the Computational and Applied Mathematics program at this same university created a fellowship for CAM students that was available only to citizens, and was ridiculously high-paying.  The department actually lobbied him to drop the "citizens only" requirement so they could use the money to attract a higher quantity of top students, as opposed to being limited solely to the crop of U.S. citizens.  So far as I know, he refused.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In the graduate CS department I was a part of in the late 90s , the problem was foreign students who would indicate that they intended to earn a Ph.D. , get a fellowship that covered their first two years ( during which it was typical to earn a Master 's degree ) , then leave once they 'd earned a Master 's .
They did n't always go back to China , though ; typically they got industry jobs in the U.S.Interestingly , a large donor who almost singlehandedly funded the Computational and Applied Mathematics program at this same university created a fellowship for CAM students that was available only to citizens , and was ridiculously high-paying .
The department actually lobbied him to drop the " citizens only " requirement so they could use the money to attract a higher quantity of top students , as opposed to being limited solely to the crop of U.S. citizens. So far as I know , he refused .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the graduate CS department I was a part of in the late 90s, the problem was foreign students who would indicate that they intended to earn a Ph.D., get a fellowship that covered their first two years (during which it was typical to earn a Master's degree), then leave once they'd earned a Master's.
They didn't always go back to China, though; typically they got industry jobs in the U.S.Interestingly, a large donor who almost singlehandedly funded the Computational and Applied Mathematics program at this same university created a fellowship for CAM students that was available only to citizens, and was ridiculously high-paying.
The department actually lobbied him to drop the "citizens only" requirement so they could use the money to attract a higher quantity of top students, as opposed to being limited solely to the crop of U.S. citizens.  So far as I know, he refused.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706836</id>
	<title>Re:probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>sonnejw0</author>
	<datestamp>1263047580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No. NIH gives grants to students to do a specific project. Grants are contracted work, and the grant money is held by the lab to do that work, not by the student in their personal account. The grant relieves the lab/department of paying the stipend thus allowing the purchase of more resources including potentially a lab tech. If the student leaves, the grant still exists for the lab and is free from paying the stipend. Aside from that, when did the government start caring about where our tax money goes?</htmltext>
<tokenext>No .
NIH gives grants to students to do a specific project .
Grants are contracted work , and the grant money is held by the lab to do that work , not by the student in their personal account .
The grant relieves the lab/department of paying the stipend thus allowing the purchase of more resources including potentially a lab tech .
If the student leaves , the grant still exists for the lab and is free from paying the stipend .
Aside from that , when did the government start caring about where our tax money goes ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No.
NIH gives grants to students to do a specific project.
Grants are contracted work, and the grant money is held by the lab to do that work, not by the student in their personal account.
The grant relieves the lab/department of paying the stipend thus allowing the purchase of more resources including potentially a lab tech.
If the student leaves, the grant still exists for the lab and is free from paying the stipend.
Aside from that, when did the government start caring about where our tax money goes?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705544</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30708132</id>
	<title>No direct war with China will ever happen</title>
	<author>gatkinso</author>
	<datestamp>1263061380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>it would last about an hour.  Say 700 million dead on their side, 100 million on the US side after the initial exchange.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>it would last about an hour .
Say 700 million dead on their side , 100 million on the US side after the initial exchange .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>it would last about an hour.
Say 700 million dead on their side, 100 million on the US side after the initial exchange.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707416</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706028</id>
	<title>Re:Green card</title>
	<author>Idiomatick</author>
	<datestamp>1263034080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"This from a Canadian no less (personally I think we should give automatic landed immigrant status to anyone that speaks English or French, has no criminal record and has a 4 year degree in anything remotely useful). Our countries are founded on immigration, this seems like a no-brainer to me!"<br> <br>Canadian here as well and I 100\% agree with your whole post.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D My GF is from the US has a 4 year degree from a good school, finished near the top of her class and is getting a teacher's degree. That her immigration status is questionable is quite ridiculous. She also learned some basic french and took Canadian history... Essentially the way it is set up is that you can't move here until you get offered a job... And the employer must state that no suitable Canadian could be found, and they must promise to keep you for a certain time period. Getting that in today's economy is nigh impossible.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" This from a Canadian no less ( personally I think we should give automatic landed immigrant status to anyone that speaks English or French , has no criminal record and has a 4 year degree in anything remotely useful ) .
Our countries are founded on immigration , this seems like a no-brainer to me !
" Canadian here as well and I 100 \ % agree with your whole post .
: D My GF is from the US has a 4 year degree from a good school , finished near the top of her class and is getting a teacher 's degree .
That her immigration status is questionable is quite ridiculous .
She also learned some basic french and took Canadian history... Essentially the way it is set up is that you ca n't move here until you get offered a job... And the employer must state that no suitable Canadian could be found , and they must promise to keep you for a certain time period .
Getting that in today 's economy is nigh impossible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"This from a Canadian no less (personally I think we should give automatic landed immigrant status to anyone that speaks English or French, has no criminal record and has a 4 year degree in anything remotely useful).
Our countries are founded on immigration, this seems like a no-brainer to me!
" Canadian here as well and I 100\% agree with your whole post.
:D My GF is from the US has a 4 year degree from a good school, finished near the top of her class and is getting a teacher's degree.
That her immigration status is questionable is quite ridiculous.
She also learned some basic french and took Canadian history... Essentially the way it is set up is that you can't move here until you get offered a job... And the employer must state that no suitable Canadian could be found, and they must promise to keep you for a certain time period.
Getting that in today's economy is nigh impossible.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705446</id>
	<title>The Worm Turns</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263068520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> The US has been profiting from the "Brain Drain" for the best part of a hundred years.  Now, finally, the countries from whom they've been recruiting the best and brightest have some solid reasons to go home after enjoying the benefits of a US postgraduate education (which often was paid for by the other country at a rate two or three times that charged to US students).  Meanwhile, undergraduate, secondary and primary education in the US has been degraded by underfunding to the point where fewer and fewer Americans are able to take advantage of the superb post-grad opportunities. </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The US has been profiting from the " Brain Drain " for the best part of a hundred years .
Now , finally , the countries from whom they 've been recruiting the best and brightest have some solid reasons to go home after enjoying the benefits of a US postgraduate education ( which often was paid for by the other country at a rate two or three times that charged to US students ) .
Meanwhile , undergraduate , secondary and primary education in the US has been degraded by underfunding to the point where fewer and fewer Americans are able to take advantage of the superb post-grad opportunities .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> The US has been profiting from the "Brain Drain" for the best part of a hundred years.
Now, finally, the countries from whom they've been recruiting the best and brightest have some solid reasons to go home after enjoying the benefits of a US postgraduate education (which often was paid for by the other country at a rate two or three times that charged to US students).
Meanwhile, undergraduate, secondary and primary education in the US has been degraded by underfunding to the point where fewer and fewer Americans are able to take advantage of the superb post-grad opportunities. </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705646</id>
	<title>Re:The Worm Turns</title>
	<author>shutdown -p now</author>
	<datestamp>1263028380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The US has been profiting from the "Brain Drain" for the best part of a hundred years. Now, finally, the countries from whom they've been recruiting the best and brightest have some solid reasons to go home after enjoying the benefits of a US postgraduate education (which often was paid for by the other country at a rate two or three times that charged to US students).</p> </div><p>My thoughts exactly.</p><p>Hell, in Russia, degree and beyond is actually <em>free</em> (if you're good enough, anyway), and then people turn around and immigrate... a lot of folk are quite bitter about it all.</p><p>And in this case, those Chinese students have likely paid a <em>lot</em> of money (more than an American would) to study in U.S., and not all of them go for post-grad. I would be very much surprised if it's a net loss even if all post-grads leave.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The US has been profiting from the " Brain Drain " for the best part of a hundred years .
Now , finally , the countries from whom they 've been recruiting the best and brightest have some solid reasons to go home after enjoying the benefits of a US postgraduate education ( which often was paid for by the other country at a rate two or three times that charged to US students ) .
My thoughts exactly.Hell , in Russia , degree and beyond is actually free ( if you 're good enough , anyway ) , and then people turn around and immigrate... a lot of folk are quite bitter about it all.And in this case , those Chinese students have likely paid a lot of money ( more than an American would ) to study in U.S. , and not all of them go for post-grad .
I would be very much surprised if it 's a net loss even if all post-grads leave .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The US has been profiting from the "Brain Drain" for the best part of a hundred years.
Now, finally, the countries from whom they've been recruiting the best and brightest have some solid reasons to go home after enjoying the benefits of a US postgraduate education (which often was paid for by the other country at a rate two or three times that charged to US students).
My thoughts exactly.Hell, in Russia, degree and beyond is actually free (if you're good enough, anyway), and then people turn around and immigrate... a lot of folk are quite bitter about it all.And in this case, those Chinese students have likely paid a lot of money (more than an American would) to study in U.S., and not all of them go for post-grad.
I would be very much surprised if it's a net loss even if all post-grads leave.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705446</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707820</id>
	<title>Re:I think the worse problem is the other way arou</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263058440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're not kidding.  On an F1 student visa, every time you enter the US you have to show evidence that you plan on leaving once your education is complete, or you will not be let into the country.</p><p>8 years into my PhD I felt like telling the border agents "your government has spent over half a million dollars in research grants educating me, and you want me to prove I'm not going to stay?  Are you nuts?"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're not kidding .
On an F1 student visa , every time you enter the US you have to show evidence that you plan on leaving once your education is complete , or you will not be let into the country.8 years into my PhD I felt like telling the border agents " your government has spent over half a million dollars in research grants educating me , and you want me to prove I 'm not going to stay ?
Are you nuts ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're not kidding.
On an F1 student visa, every time you enter the US you have to show evidence that you plan on leaving once your education is complete, or you will not be let into the country.8 years into my PhD I felt like telling the border agents "your government has spent over half a million dollars in research grants educating me, and you want me to prove I'm not going to stay?
Are you nuts?
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705558</id>
	<title>What inducement would it take?</title>
	<author>symbolset</author>
	<datestamp>1263070080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>What incentive could they offer for scientists who crave discovery and publication to go and live behind the Great Firewall?  They must be sellng it hard.</htmltext>
<tokenext>What incentive could they offer for scientists who crave discovery and publication to go and live behind the Great Firewall ?
They must be sellng it hard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What incentive could they offer for scientists who crave discovery and publication to go and live behind the Great Firewall?
They must be sellng it hard.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30708280</id>
	<title>Not in the interest</title>
	<author>amightywind</author>
	<datestamp>1263062760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is not in the US interest to subsidize an enemy, which is what we are doing by educating the Chinese, while we lose another generation of males here at home. Don't be deceived by the muzzy thinking liberals who say otherwise. Let the US and China each educate their own.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is not in the US interest to subsidize an enemy , which is what we are doing by educating the Chinese , while we lose another generation of males here at home .
Do n't be deceived by the muzzy thinking liberals who say otherwise .
Let the US and China each educate their own .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is not in the US interest to subsidize an enemy, which is what we are doing by educating the Chinese, while we lose another generation of males here at home.
Don't be deceived by the muzzy thinking liberals who say otherwise.
Let the US and China each educate their own.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30708574</id>
	<title>Re:I think the worse problem is the other way arou</title>
	<author>xirusmom</author>
	<datestamp>1263065220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Exactly. I am finishing my PhD in about a month. A few years ago, I have actually repaid my home country about 80k of my scholarship so far, so I could stay in the US.
<br>
Now that I am done, I am looking for a Job but I need to get a work permit that is almost impossible, especially with the cuts on research funding. So, although I want to stay, own a house, have an American born son and a husband with an H1B, I will have the choice of: staying at home on an H4 that does not allow me to work, go back or just do consultancy outside the US. Did I heard China is hiring?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly .
I am finishing my PhD in about a month .
A few years ago , I have actually repaid my home country about 80k of my scholarship so far , so I could stay in the US .
Now that I am done , I am looking for a Job but I need to get a work permit that is almost impossible , especially with the cuts on research funding .
So , although I want to stay , own a house , have an American born son and a husband with an H1B , I will have the choice of : staying at home on an H4 that does not allow me to work , go back or just do consultancy outside the US .
Did I heard China is hiring ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly.
I am finishing my PhD in about a month.
A few years ago, I have actually repaid my home country about 80k of my scholarship so far, so I could stay in the US.
Now that I am done, I am looking for a Job but I need to get a work permit that is almost impossible, especially with the cuts on research funding.
So, although I want to stay, own a house, have an American born son and a husband with an H1B, I will have the choice of: staying at home on an H4 that does not allow me to work, go back or just do consultancy outside the US.
Did I heard China is hiring?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30711206</id>
	<title>Re:I think the worse problem is the other way arou</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263045600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>When they go back to their home country, people then complain about a brain drain.</p></div><p>The brain drain is when you make them LEAVE their home country to work twice as hard for twice less with little recognition to work for the Great America, draining their home country from their brain....</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>When they go back to their home country , people then complain about a brain drain.The brain drain is when you make them LEAVE their home country to work twice as hard for twice less with little recognition to work for the Great America , draining their home country from their brain... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When they go back to their home country, people then complain about a brain drain.The brain drain is when you make them LEAVE their home country to work twice as hard for twice less with little recognition to work for the Great America, draining their home country from their brain....
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30708934</id>
	<title>Re:Green card</title>
	<author>gozu</author>
	<datestamp>1263068280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Spoken as someone who believes that a well educated person is an asset to a country. You're right of course. Pity not enough people agree.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Spoken as someone who believes that a well educated person is an asset to a country .
You 're right of course .
Pity not enough people agree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Spoken as someone who believes that a well educated person is an asset to a country.
You're right of course.
Pity not enough people agree.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706008</id>
	<title>Re:What inducement would it take?</title>
	<author>toQDuj</author>
	<datestamp>1263033780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh, a chinese colleague of mine told me that the one thing he misses most from China is the food! So keep the "chinese" food in foreign countries at a shitty level, and they'll be sure to return one day..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh , a chinese colleague of mine told me that the one thing he misses most from China is the food !
So keep the " chinese " food in foreign countries at a shitty level , and they 'll be sure to return one day. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh, a chinese colleague of mine told me that the one thing he misses most from China is the food!
So keep the "chinese" food in foreign countries at a shitty level, and they'll be sure to return one day..</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705558</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707342</id>
	<title>view of a biotech scientist</title>
	<author>cinnamon colbert</author>
	<datestamp>1263053400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In a historical view, the post WWII, and in the longer view, the post industrial revolution era, are anomolous, in that there was an unusual conc of science in the us and western europe; for large swaths of human history, China was the dominant, or at least a co dominant science technology country.<br>There are still living people who remember when Germany was THE leading science power, and if you were a serious scientitst, you went to Germany to finish your education; people like Willard Gibbs were celebrated precisely because genuwine US science hereos were so rare.</p><p>The post WWII period, when our wealth dominated world science, is coming to an end. So, the correct view is not that we are loosing our dominance, but that an unusual situtation, where an unusual amount of science was concentrated in the US, is coming to an end.<br>That we offer free training at what are still the best universitys in the world, because of the  specious theoretical economic arguments infavor of globiliazation (see samuleson)  certainly doesn't help the US.</p><p>I don't know about physics or chemistry, but life science is a labor intensive field. Right now, I make a pretty good living as a PhD scientist in boston area biotech; how on earth am i going to compete with someone from china, just as smart and well educated, a lot hardworking, and a lot cheaper ?<br>And this is not theory - it is happening; all of the major pharma and RnD firms (eg, Invitrogen) are setting up shop in china with large numbers of scientists.</p><p>One other point, which people outside of life science research may not understand. Life science research - basic science as practiced at our universitys - is almost a pyramid scheme; it is based on the idea that very hardworking, intelligent people willl spend 4-8 years at very low salary (graduate school/postdoc) and the carrot for this low wage job is that you can become an independent researcher - similar to the idea behind interns and residents.<br>So, every university professor depends, critically, on having a group of graduate students to do the actual work; if you are a prof, you must find young people willing to work long hours at relatively low pay.<br>The problem is that independent researchers are very exspensive, so most of the people who go into phd programs will wind up trashed - they will not have a career in science, at least not a good paying one.<br>so a large part of the driver for chinese scientists at our universitys is as cheap labor that is "expendable" - you can send them back to china at the end of their grad work;  I emphasize that this is driven by the selfish economic needs of university profs; basically, chinese and indian grad students are guest workers, and the great thing is, you can send them back, so you can get new pools of young, cheap labor.<br>Thus, in the univeristy community, there is tremendous pressure to maintain the flow, and you have people claiming that there is a "shortage" of scientists; of course, in a free market system, by definition, a shortage means you are not paying enough..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In a historical view , the post WWII , and in the longer view , the post industrial revolution era , are anomolous , in that there was an unusual conc of science in the us and western europe ; for large swaths of human history , China was the dominant , or at least a co dominant science technology country.There are still living people who remember when Germany was THE leading science power , and if you were a serious scientitst , you went to Germany to finish your education ; people like Willard Gibbs were celebrated precisely because genuwine US science hereos were so rare.The post WWII period , when our wealth dominated world science , is coming to an end .
So , the correct view is not that we are loosing our dominance , but that an unusual situtation , where an unusual amount of science was concentrated in the US , is coming to an end.That we offer free training at what are still the best universitys in the world , because of the specious theoretical economic arguments infavor of globiliazation ( see samuleson ) certainly does n't help the US.I do n't know about physics or chemistry , but life science is a labor intensive field .
Right now , I make a pretty good living as a PhD scientist in boston area biotech ; how on earth am i going to compete with someone from china , just as smart and well educated , a lot hardworking , and a lot cheaper ? And this is not theory - it is happening ; all of the major pharma and RnD firms ( eg , Invitrogen ) are setting up shop in china with large numbers of scientists.One other point , which people outside of life science research may not understand .
Life science research - basic science as practiced at our universitys - is almost a pyramid scheme ; it is based on the idea that very hardworking , intelligent people willl spend 4-8 years at very low salary ( graduate school/postdoc ) and the carrot for this low wage job is that you can become an independent researcher - similar to the idea behind interns and residents.So , every university professor depends , critically , on having a group of graduate students to do the actual work ; if you are a prof , you must find young people willing to work long hours at relatively low pay.The problem is that independent researchers are very exspensive , so most of the people who go into phd programs will wind up trashed - they will not have a career in science , at least not a good paying one.so a large part of the driver for chinese scientists at our universitys is as cheap labor that is " expendable " - you can send them back to china at the end of their grad work ; I emphasize that this is driven by the selfish economic needs of university profs ; basically , chinese and indian grad students are guest workers , and the great thing is , you can send them back , so you can get new pools of young , cheap labor.Thus , in the univeristy community , there is tremendous pressure to maintain the flow , and you have people claiming that there is a " shortage " of scientists ; of course , in a free market system , by definition , a shortage means you are not paying enough. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In a historical view, the post WWII, and in the longer view, the post industrial revolution era, are anomolous, in that there was an unusual conc of science in the us and western europe; for large swaths of human history, China was the dominant, or at least a co dominant science technology country.There are still living people who remember when Germany was THE leading science power, and if you were a serious scientitst, you went to Germany to finish your education; people like Willard Gibbs were celebrated precisely because genuwine US science hereos were so rare.The post WWII period, when our wealth dominated world science, is coming to an end.
So, the correct view is not that we are loosing our dominance, but that an unusual situtation, where an unusual amount of science was concentrated in the US, is coming to an end.That we offer free training at what are still the best universitys in the world, because of the  specious theoretical economic arguments infavor of globiliazation (see samuleson)  certainly doesn't help the US.I don't know about physics or chemistry, but life science is a labor intensive field.
Right now, I make a pretty good living as a PhD scientist in boston area biotech; how on earth am i going to compete with someone from china, just as smart and well educated, a lot hardworking, and a lot cheaper ?And this is not theory - it is happening; all of the major pharma and RnD firms (eg, Invitrogen) are setting up shop in china with large numbers of scientists.One other point, which people outside of life science research may not understand.
Life science research - basic science as practiced at our universitys - is almost a pyramid scheme; it is based on the idea that very hardworking, intelligent people willl spend 4-8 years at very low salary (graduate school/postdoc) and the carrot for this low wage job is that you can become an independent researcher - similar to the idea behind interns and residents.So, every university professor depends, critically, on having a group of graduate students to do the actual work; if you are a prof, you must find young people willing to work long hours at relatively low pay.The problem is that independent researchers are very exspensive, so most of the people who go into phd programs will wind up trashed - they will not have a career in science, at least not a good paying one.so a large part of the driver for chinese scientists at our universitys is as cheap labor that is "expendable" - you can send them back to china at the end of their grad work;  I emphasize that this is driven by the selfish economic needs of university profs; basically, chinese and indian grad students are guest workers, and the great thing is, you can send them back, so you can get new pools of young, cheap labor.Thus, in the univeristy community, there is tremendous pressure to maintain the flow, and you have people claiming that there is a "shortage" of scientists; of course, in a free market system, by definition, a shortage means you are not paying enough..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30708678</id>
	<title>Re:Green card</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263066120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Canada already follows more or less that policy, giving resident status to anyone who applies after a short review.</p><p>However, Canada has a population shortage and needs to fill the country with young, qualified people no matter where they come from. The US, on the other hand, is already full of people and there are lines of others trying to get in.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Canada already follows more or less that policy , giving resident status to anyone who applies after a short review.However , Canada has a population shortage and needs to fill the country with young , qualified people no matter where they come from .
The US , on the other hand , is already full of people and there are lines of others trying to get in .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Canada already follows more or less that policy, giving resident status to anyone who applies after a short review.However, Canada has a population shortage and needs to fill the country with young, qualified people no matter where they come from.
The US, on the other hand, is already full of people and there are lines of others trying to get in.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705770</id>
	<title>Re:I think the worse problem is the other way arou</title>
	<author>Raisey-raison</author>
	<datestamp>1263030180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think the whole situation is ironic. Quite often when I hear stories about immigrants with degrees getting jobs in the USA, people go ballistic about how they are stealing Americans' jobs and depressing wages.</p><p>When they go back to their home country, people then complain about a brain drain and about how they should make a 'contribution' to the country that educated them (never mind that they paid highly inflated tuition and quite often even their graduate education was paid for by moneys outside of the USA + grad students essentially work for $10 an hour - slave wages).</p><p>So they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the whole situation is ironic .
Quite often when I hear stories about immigrants with degrees getting jobs in the USA , people go ballistic about how they are stealing Americans ' jobs and depressing wages.When they go back to their home country , people then complain about a brain drain and about how they should make a 'contribution ' to the country that educated them ( never mind that they paid highly inflated tuition and quite often even their graduate education was paid for by moneys outside of the USA + grad students essentially work for $ 10 an hour - slave wages ) .So they are damned if they do and damned if they do n't .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the whole situation is ironic.
Quite often when I hear stories about immigrants with degrees getting jobs in the USA, people go ballistic about how they are stealing Americans' jobs and depressing wages.When they go back to their home country, people then complain about a brain drain and about how they should make a 'contribution' to the country that educated them (never mind that they paid highly inflated tuition and quite often even their graduate education was paid for by moneys outside of the USA + grad students essentially work for $10 an hour - slave wages).So they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707688</id>
	<title>Re:We are asking the same in India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263057120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Fine, your request is my "responsibility" to fulfill:<br>One of the most difficult parts of leadership is to challenge those you lead; and inform your "followers" of their shortcomings to help them grow. <br> <br>I work around hundreds of those engineering college student from India every day. None of those students has ever been challenged intellectually or personally. The <i>premier engineering colleges in India</i> <b>demand results and excellence</b> of their students; but don't <b>challenge</b> them to excel. Thus, as has been noted in this discussion, these students from India excel at recitation, regurgitation, and [let's coin a new term] <b>followship</b>. When challenging these students, the confusion, shock, disbelief, and intellectual entrenchment of these students continues to amaze me. But, after these students get a taste for challenge, failure, failure, success, they begin to realize how inadequate is the education from the premier engineering colleges in India.<br> <br>The employer requirements in India are no better. I am often contacted by companies in India to provide a reference for these returning students. The companies in India are as completely clueless as to what makes, stimulates, and challenges an engineer -- and they fail in how to select these engineers by continuing to rely of the skills of recitation, regurgitation, and <i>followship</i>. Therefore, the best and brightest stay in the US of A.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Fine , your request is my " responsibility " to fulfill : One of the most difficult parts of leadership is to challenge those you lead ; and inform your " followers " of their shortcomings to help them grow .
I work around hundreds of those engineering college student from India every day .
None of those students has ever been challenged intellectually or personally .
The premier engineering colleges in India demand results and excellence of their students ; but do n't challenge them to excel .
Thus , as has been noted in this discussion , these students from India excel at recitation , regurgitation , and [ let 's coin a new term ] followship .
When challenging these students , the confusion , shock , disbelief , and intellectual entrenchment of these students continues to amaze me .
But , after these students get a taste for challenge , failure , failure , success , they begin to realize how inadequate is the education from the premier engineering colleges in India .
The employer requirements in India are no better .
I am often contacted by companies in India to provide a reference for these returning students .
The companies in India are as completely clueless as to what makes , stimulates , and challenges an engineer -- and they fail in how to select these engineers by continuing to rely of the skills of recitation , regurgitation , and followship .
Therefore , the best and brightest stay in the US of A .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fine, your request is my "responsibility" to fulfill:One of the most difficult parts of leadership is to challenge those you lead; and inform your "followers" of their shortcomings to help them grow.
I work around hundreds of those engineering college student from India every day.
None of those students has ever been challenged intellectually or personally.
The premier engineering colleges in India demand results and excellence of their students; but don't challenge them to excel.
Thus, as has been noted in this discussion, these students from India excel at recitation, regurgitation, and [let's coin a new term] followship.
When challenging these students, the confusion, shock, disbelief, and intellectual entrenchment of these students continues to amaze me.
But, after these students get a taste for challenge, failure, failure, success, they begin to realize how inadequate is the education from the premier engineering colleges in India.
The employer requirements in India are no better.
I am often contacted by companies in India to provide a reference for these returning students.
The companies in India are as completely clueless as to what makes, stimulates, and challenges an engineer -- and they fail in how to select these engineers by continuing to rely of the skills of recitation, regurgitation, and followship.
Therefore, the best and brightest stay in the US of A.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705594</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707416</id>
	<title>Gearing up for war?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263054120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Call me paranoia but with the recent news of a high speed train infrastructure, the recalling of academics, and who knows what else seems to point naturally to some grand military plan in the works.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Call me paranoia but with the recent news of a high speed train infrastructure , the recalling of academics , and who knows what else seems to point naturally to some grand military plan in the works .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Call me paranoia but with the recent news of a high speed train infrastructure, the recalling of academics, and who knows what else seems to point naturally to some grand military plan in the works.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706728</id>
	<title>Re:I think the worse problem is the other way arou</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1263046140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What is Germany doing in there? We might be worse than before all non-Nazi-friendly scientists fled to the USA, but we&rsquo;re still top-notch here.</p><p>Besides: What&rsquo;s all the us against them mentality about? In science there no place for this. That&rsquo;s the nice thing: Scientists do not care for stupid politics. Iranians, US, Chinese, Russians, Israeli, etc, all work together, and don&rsquo;t even think about if some power-greedy suit/gunswinger is thinking they &ldquo;shouldn&rsquo;t&rdquo;.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What is Germany doing in there ?
We might be worse than before all non-Nazi-friendly scientists fled to the USA , but we    re still top-notch here.Besides : What    s all the us against them mentality about ?
In science there no place for this .
That    s the nice thing : Scientists do not care for stupid politics .
Iranians , US , Chinese , Russians , Israeli , etc , all work together , and don    t even think about if some power-greedy suit/gunswinger is thinking they    shouldn    t    .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What is Germany doing in there?
We might be worse than before all non-Nazi-friendly scientists fled to the USA, but we’re still top-notch here.Besides: What’s all the us against them mentality about?
In science there no place for this.
That’s the nice thing: Scientists do not care for stupid politics.
Iranians, US, Chinese, Russians, Israeli, etc, all work together, and don’t even think about if some power-greedy suit/gunswinger is thinking they “shouldn’t”.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706042</id>
	<title>Re:The Worm Turns</title>
	<author>sznupi</author>
	<datestamp>1263034200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Those school systems which are functioning good throughout the world are very much "government" ones too, so you might let go that socialism phobia. Something went a bit more wrong with your implementation along the way.</p><p>One could even argue that what you're describing is, essentially, applying corporate ethics to the way education is performed<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;p</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Those school systems which are functioning good throughout the world are very much " government " ones too , so you might let go that socialism phobia .
Something went a bit more wrong with your implementation along the way.One could even argue that what you 're describing is , essentially , applying corporate ethics to the way education is performed ; p</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Those school systems which are functioning good throughout the world are very much "government" ones too, so you might let go that socialism phobia.
Something went a bit more wrong with your implementation along the way.One could even argue that what you're describing is, essentially, applying corporate ethics to the way education is performed ;p</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705682</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705584</id>
	<title>Nothing's gonna change ... for a long while</title>
	<author>who could</author>
	<datestamp>1263070440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The moment you say research is underfunded, you imply that there are more applicants than positions. This means that if some of the positions are vacated, they will surely be filled before long. There are other reasons why nothing will change for a while.
1. The repatriates will raise the global bar of education quality
2. vacant research positions will drive other deserving students to fill them, i.e. people who just barely lost the admission will get a chance
3. there are countries other than China and India that have potential students

In fact, US has the least of worries. Australia is facing the real shit, what with Indian students shunning the outback option because of the recent racist attacks.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The moment you say research is underfunded , you imply that there are more applicants than positions .
This means that if some of the positions are vacated , they will surely be filled before long .
There are other reasons why nothing will change for a while .
1. The repatriates will raise the global bar of education quality 2. vacant research positions will drive other deserving students to fill them , i.e .
people who just barely lost the admission will get a chance 3. there are countries other than China and India that have potential students In fact , US has the least of worries .
Australia is facing the real shit , what with Indian students shunning the outback option because of the recent racist attacks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The moment you say research is underfunded, you imply that there are more applicants than positions.
This means that if some of the positions are vacated, they will surely be filled before long.
There are other reasons why nothing will change for a while.
1. The repatriates will raise the global bar of education quality
2. vacant research positions will drive other deserving students to fill them, i.e.
people who just barely lost the admission will get a chance
3. there are countries other than China and India that have potential students

In fact, US has the least of worries.
Australia is facing the real shit, what with Indian students shunning the outback option because of the recent racist attacks.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707168</id>
	<title>This is the problem with the 'free' world</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263051660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It isn't really free when China just wants to treat us like human resources.<br>It's not really free if 'other' coutries do the opposite.<br>China doesn't deserve the opportunities it's getting because it's a taker country not a giver one.<br>America pays for the education of top Phd men and women and China, as usual, takes liberties.<br>And most of these Chinese graduates will take the offers are they are from the taker gene pool.</p><p>It's disgusting, and what opportunities for non-Chinese Phd's in China? There's no mention.<br>So, the US and Europe give opportunities to Chinese students but then when the tables are turned the Chinese don't reciprocate.<br>They discriminate taking only from their own.</p><p>It's time to reduce Chinese citizens to third class citizens in Europe and America, and launch a combined Russian, European, Israeli and American nuclear strike against the chinx before they totally screw up all we've slowly agonised over the selfish Chinese. Everything people like Martin Luther King did for black people, the humanitarian work of people like Mother Theresa - we can lose all our decency with the Chinese ascendancy, They're living up to their name as selfish uncompassionate xenophobic racists, and they will pay DEARLY if they keep it up, which they more than likely will.<br>The 'free world' model has been exposed for it's shortcomings. The Chinese have betrayed our trust yet again. They're parasites. I think we need to cut them out of the international community.<br>America wouldn'thave a chance against either Europe or America militarily, especially America. If they want to keep biting the hand that feeds them, they're going to get an epic nuclear haarptacular anti matter wake up call, that will put them back into their rice paddies for anther hundred years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is n't really free when China just wants to treat us like human resources.It 's not really free if 'other ' coutries do the opposite.China does n't deserve the opportunities it 's getting because it 's a taker country not a giver one.America pays for the education of top Phd men and women and China , as usual , takes liberties.And most of these Chinese graduates will take the offers are they are from the taker gene pool.It 's disgusting , and what opportunities for non-Chinese Phd 's in China ?
There 's no mention.So , the US and Europe give opportunities to Chinese students but then when the tables are turned the Chinese do n't reciprocate.They discriminate taking only from their own.It 's time to reduce Chinese citizens to third class citizens in Europe and America , and launch a combined Russian , European , Israeli and American nuclear strike against the chinx before they totally screw up all we 've slowly agonised over the selfish Chinese .
Everything people like Martin Luther King did for black people , the humanitarian work of people like Mother Theresa - we can lose all our decency with the Chinese ascendancy , They 're living up to their name as selfish uncompassionate xenophobic racists , and they will pay DEARLY if they keep it up , which they more than likely will.The 'free world ' model has been exposed for it 's shortcomings .
The Chinese have betrayed our trust yet again .
They 're parasites .
I think we need to cut them out of the international community.America wouldn'thave a chance against either Europe or America militarily , especially America .
If they want to keep biting the hand that feeds them , they 're going to get an epic nuclear haarptacular anti matter wake up call , that will put them back into their rice paddies for anther hundred years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It isn't really free when China just wants to treat us like human resources.It's not really free if 'other' coutries do the opposite.China doesn't deserve the opportunities it's getting because it's a taker country not a giver one.America pays for the education of top Phd men and women and China, as usual, takes liberties.And most of these Chinese graduates will take the offers are they are from the taker gene pool.It's disgusting, and what opportunities for non-Chinese Phd's in China?
There's no mention.So, the US and Europe give opportunities to Chinese students but then when the tables are turned the Chinese don't reciprocate.They discriminate taking only from their own.It's time to reduce Chinese citizens to third class citizens in Europe and America, and launch a combined Russian, European, Israeli and American nuclear strike against the chinx before they totally screw up all we've slowly agonised over the selfish Chinese.
Everything people like Martin Luther King did for black people, the humanitarian work of people like Mother Theresa - we can lose all our decency with the Chinese ascendancy, They're living up to their name as selfish uncompassionate xenophobic racists, and they will pay DEARLY if they keep it up, which they more than likely will.The 'free world' model has been exposed for it's shortcomings.
The Chinese have betrayed our trust yet again.
They're parasites.
I think we need to cut them out of the international community.America wouldn'thave a chance against either Europe or America militarily, especially America.
If they want to keep biting the hand that feeds them, they're going to get an epic nuclear haarptacular anti matter wake up call, that will put them back into their rice paddies for anther hundred years.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705878</id>
	<title>I'm definitely keen that China doing that</title>
	<author>Haitian</author>
	<datestamp>1263031800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think if every country was smart as China, they would have done the same things.. Trying to get their good ones back to their country.

I do not think a country with better pay job is that matter than how someone can feel when he/ she working in his/ her own country.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think if every country was smart as China , they would have done the same things.. Trying to get their good ones back to their country .
I do not think a country with better pay job is that matter than how someone can feel when he/ she working in his/ her own country .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think if every country was smart as China, they would have done the same things.. Trying to get their good ones back to their country.
I do not think a country with better pay job is that matter than how someone can feel when he/ she working in his/ her own country.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30710146</id>
	<title>Re:Grapes turned sour?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263036720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"all you have left is yesterday's cold-war rhetoric" is always an amusing thing to see written in an article about China. After all, the new "RAR! CHINA DOMINANT!" stuff is just today's nationalism, which is exactly the same as yesterday's cold war rhetoric.</p><p>We've been seeing this kind of article for, oh, fifteen years at least. We've also been seeing it not quite happening as planned. You can find plenty of insider comments about the quality of Chinese education and the corruption of its business and academia in this thread, and hopefully the lead and melamine incidents haven't fallen out of your short term memory yet either.</p><p>Note that before "RAR! CHINA DOMINANT!" there was "RAR! JAPAN DOMINANT!", which also didn't quite happen as planned. But it provides a fairly realistic guess of the heights China might attain iff everything goes fairly well. And frankly, just as we're not particularly threatened by Japan's current economic and tech strength, we'd not be in trouble if China reached similar levels. And for China to reach similar levels, they'd have to correct a whole lot of problems that they currently aren't really correcting, and IMO clear some slightly higher hurdles than Japan had to clear on the way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" all you have left is yesterday 's cold-war rhetoric " is always an amusing thing to see written in an article about China .
After all , the new " RAR !
CHINA DOMINANT !
" stuff is just today 's nationalism , which is exactly the same as yesterday 's cold war rhetoric.We 've been seeing this kind of article for , oh , fifteen years at least .
We 've also been seeing it not quite happening as planned .
You can find plenty of insider comments about the quality of Chinese education and the corruption of its business and academia in this thread , and hopefully the lead and melamine incidents have n't fallen out of your short term memory yet either.Note that before " RAR !
CHINA DOMINANT !
" there was " RAR !
JAPAN DOMINANT !
" , which also did n't quite happen as planned .
But it provides a fairly realistic guess of the heights China might attain iff everything goes fairly well .
And frankly , just as we 're not particularly threatened by Japan 's current economic and tech strength , we 'd not be in trouble if China reached similar levels .
And for China to reach similar levels , they 'd have to correct a whole lot of problems that they currently are n't really correcting , and IMO clear some slightly higher hurdles than Japan had to clear on the way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"all you have left is yesterday's cold-war rhetoric" is always an amusing thing to see written in an article about China.
After all, the new "RAR!
CHINA DOMINANT!
" stuff is just today's nationalism, which is exactly the same as yesterday's cold war rhetoric.We've been seeing this kind of article for, oh, fifteen years at least.
We've also been seeing it not quite happening as planned.
You can find plenty of insider comments about the quality of Chinese education and the corruption of its business and academia in this thread, and hopefully the lead and melamine incidents haven't fallen out of your short term memory yet either.Note that before "RAR!
CHINA DOMINANT!
" there was "RAR!
JAPAN DOMINANT!
", which also didn't quite happen as planned.
But it provides a fairly realistic guess of the heights China might attain iff everything goes fairly well.
And frankly, just as we're not particularly threatened by Japan's current economic and tech strength, we'd not be in trouble if China reached similar levels.
And for China to reach similar levels, they'd have to correct a whole lot of problems that they currently aren't really correcting, and IMO clear some slightly higher hurdles than Japan had to clear on the way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30712020</id>
	<title>Re:We are asking the same in India</title>
	<author>xirusmom</author>
	<datestamp>1263051960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you come under a J visa, it usually means your country is sponsoring you. And that means you cannot obtain an immigrant visa for at least 2 years after you got your degree. That is the agreement the US has that will guarantee the return of the students to their country, at least for a while, with a  few exceptions. about the US citizenship.... it will take you at least 7 years and that is the best possible case scenario. I could as well take 20.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you come under a J visa , it usually means your country is sponsoring you .
And that means you can not obtain an immigrant visa for at least 2 years after you got your degree .
That is the agreement the US has that will guarantee the return of the students to their country , at least for a while , with a few exceptions .
about the US citizenship.... it will take you at least 7 years and that is the best possible case scenario .
I could as well take 20 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you come under a J visa, it usually means your country is sponsoring you.
And that means you cannot obtain an immigrant visa for at least 2 years after you got your degree.
That is the agreement the US has that will guarantee the return of the students to their country, at least for a while, with a  few exceptions.
about the US citizenship.... it will take you at least 7 years and that is the best possible case scenario.
I could as well take 20.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705594</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706148</id>
	<title>zquad</title>
	<author>ackim</author>
	<datestamp>1263036240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>As an international student who had four of my friends having to leave the US for China in 2009 and one a few weeks ago, I have to say that the US does not give graduate-degree carrying international students many options.   In the US, my friend was forced to work as a web developer soliciting jobs on craigslist; however, back in China he began an IT consulting company and is currently on his way to doing $100,000+ is revenue at the end of the second quarter.  Not bad for a guy that was denied work authorization in the country that trained him and paid him ~25k/yr to work at the prestigious college.  It was pretty depressing when we spoke about his options and he is far from alone.  I hear stories of masters technology students forced to return home and go into high school education and local banking.

In my opinion, this country's policy on work authorization for well-experienced and well educated students &ndash; THAT THEY THEMSELVES TRAINED - is the reason for the drain.  Not only do I see it as anti-capitalist to not compete for graduate talent regardless of status, but the current policy to prefer, on occasions, less educated and less skilled (but national) sounds more like a social program.  Consider that in a world where competition is no longer national, but global.
So NO, it makes sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere but the US is not allowing them to do their major work within its borders.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As an international student who had four of my friends having to leave the US for China in 2009 and one a few weeks ago , I have to say that the US does not give graduate-degree carrying international students many options .
In the US , my friend was forced to work as a web developer soliciting jobs on craigslist ; however , back in China he began an IT consulting company and is currently on his way to doing $ 100,000 + is revenue at the end of the second quarter .
Not bad for a guy that was denied work authorization in the country that trained him and paid him ~ 25k/yr to work at the prestigious college .
It was pretty depressing when we spoke about his options and he is far from alone .
I hear stories of masters technology students forced to return home and go into high school education and local banking .
In my opinion , this country 's policy on work authorization for well-experienced and well educated students    THAT THEY THEMSELVES TRAINED - is the reason for the drain .
Not only do I see it as anti-capitalist to not compete for graduate talent regardless of status , but the current policy to prefer , on occasions , less educated and less skilled ( but national ) sounds more like a social program .
Consider that in a world where competition is no longer national , but global .
So NO , it makes sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere but the US is not allowing them to do their major work within its borders .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As an international student who had four of my friends having to leave the US for China in 2009 and one a few weeks ago, I have to say that the US does not give graduate-degree carrying international students many options.
In the US, my friend was forced to work as a web developer soliciting jobs on craigslist; however, back in China he began an IT consulting company and is currently on his way to doing $100,000+ is revenue at the end of the second quarter.
Not bad for a guy that was denied work authorization in the country that trained him and paid him ~25k/yr to work at the prestigious college.
It was pretty depressing when we spoke about his options and he is far from alone.
I hear stories of masters technology students forced to return home and go into high school education and local banking.
In my opinion, this country's policy on work authorization for well-experienced and well educated students – THAT THEY THEMSELVES TRAINED - is the reason for the drain.
Not only do I see it as anti-capitalist to not compete for graduate talent regardless of status, but the current policy to prefer, on occasions, less educated and less skilled (but national) sounds more like a social program.
Consider that in a world where competition is no longer national, but global.
So NO, it makes sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere but the US is not allowing them to do their major work within its borders.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705408</id>
	<title>Fixed the story for you</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263067920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The NY Times reports that China is increasing incentives for Chinese students earning PhDs in the US to return home <b>along with all of the technology they acquired at working at American companies</b>.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The NY Times reports that China is increasing incentives for Chinese students earning PhDs in the US to return home along with all of the technology they acquired at working at American companies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The NY Times reports that China is increasing incentives for Chinese students earning PhDs in the US to return home along with all of the technology they acquired at working at American companies.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707006</id>
	<title>Re:What inducement would it take?</title>
	<author>TheKidWho</author>
	<datestamp>1263049740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Come to New York City then! Some of the best Asian food abound!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Come to New York City then !
Some of the best Asian food abound !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Come to New York City then!
Some of the best Asian food abound!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705444</id>
	<title>Re:probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>ShiftyOne</author>
	<datestamp>1263068520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is pretty accurate.  Grad students in the sciences aren't making lavish salaries, they are making stipends to pay for their schooling and living expensive.  They do most of the work while the professors gives advice and manages.  You can pay around eight graduate students for the salary of one professor, which is not bad at all.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is pretty accurate .
Grad students in the sciences are n't making lavish salaries , they are making stipends to pay for their schooling and living expensive .
They do most of the work while the professors gives advice and manages .
You can pay around eight graduate students for the salary of one professor , which is not bad at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is pretty accurate.
Grad students in the sciences aren't making lavish salaries, they are making stipends to pay for their schooling and living expensive.
They do most of the work while the professors gives advice and manages.
You can pay around eight graduate students for the salary of one professor, which is not bad at all.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705356</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30708066</id>
	<title>Investment in training</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263060600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Also, the typical PhD student has their tuition paid for and receives a salary. Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere?"</p><p>Tuition &amp; salary, you say?. Okay, you definitely do not have a PhD and no clue about the program. After slogging for 5 years to get one from Stanford (I'm from India, but nevertheless), let me tell you: the measly salary that is paid is pittance to the amount of research information that is generated/documented and passed on back to the universities in return. Even if the international PhD students go back, their contributions to the US society more than makes up for the "salary".</p><p>And hey, its cheap labor, many Americans don't have to work for few hundred dollars (over fixed expenses) for years to generate the kind of I.P that puts this country in front.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Also , the typical PhD student has their tuition paid for and receives a salary .
Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere ?
" Tuition &amp; salary , you say ? .
Okay , you definitely do not have a PhD and no clue about the program .
After slogging for 5 years to get one from Stanford ( I 'm from India , but nevertheless ) , let me tell you : the measly salary that is paid is pittance to the amount of research information that is generated/documented and passed on back to the universities in return .
Even if the international PhD students go back , their contributions to the US society more than makes up for the " salary " .And hey , its cheap labor , many Americans do n't have to work for few hundred dollars ( over fixed expenses ) for years to generate the kind of I.P that puts this country in front .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Also, the typical PhD student has their tuition paid for and receives a salary.
Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere?
"Tuition &amp; salary, you say?.
Okay, you definitely do not have a PhD and no clue about the program.
After slogging for 5 years to get one from Stanford (I'm from India, but nevertheless), let me tell you: the measly salary that is paid is pittance to the amount of research information that is generated/documented and passed on back to the universities in return.
Even if the international PhD students go back, their contributions to the US society more than makes up for the "salary".And hey, its cheap labor, many Americans don't have to work for few hundred dollars (over fixed expenses) for years to generate the kind of I.P that puts this country in front.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706198</id>
	<title>Yes -- it's not just quantum optics.</title>
	<author>dtmos</author>
	<datestamp>1263037560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Look at the IEEE Journal of Solid-State Circuits (the leading journal for integrated circuit design), and compare the authorship of the papers in the <a href="http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/tocresult.jsp?isYear=2010&amp;isnumber=5357544&amp;Submit32=View+Contents" title="ieee.org">January 2010 issue</a> [ieee.org] with that of, say, the <a href="http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/tocresult.jsp?isYear=1966&amp;isnumber=22497&amp;Submit32=View+Contents" title="ieee.org">January 1966 issue</a> [ieee.org].  The fraction of not just Chinese, but Asian names of all types, has dramatically increased, as has the fraction of papers from Asian institutions (being zero in 1966).</p><p>My university experience <a href="http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1491478&amp;cid=30576910" title="slashdot.org">is similar</a> [slashdot.org], and the parent summed it up well:  "The students from China tend to be very talented and are willing to work extremely hard."  I, too, expect an explosion of quality research coming from China -- the combination of good academics and increasing disposable income (at the national level) from an improving economy will make it so.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Look at the IEEE Journal of Solid-State Circuits ( the leading journal for integrated circuit design ) , and compare the authorship of the papers in the January 2010 issue [ ieee.org ] with that of , say , the January 1966 issue [ ieee.org ] .
The fraction of not just Chinese , but Asian names of all types , has dramatically increased , as has the fraction of papers from Asian institutions ( being zero in 1966 ) .My university experience is similar [ slashdot.org ] , and the parent summed it up well : " The students from China tend to be very talented and are willing to work extremely hard .
" I , too , expect an explosion of quality research coming from China -- the combination of good academics and increasing disposable income ( at the national level ) from an improving economy will make it so .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look at the IEEE Journal of Solid-State Circuits (the leading journal for integrated circuit design), and compare the authorship of the papers in the January 2010 issue [ieee.org] with that of, say, the January 1966 issue [ieee.org].
The fraction of not just Chinese, but Asian names of all types, has dramatically increased, as has the fraction of papers from Asian institutions (being zero in 1966).My university experience is similar [slashdot.org], and the parent summed it up well:  "The students from China tend to be very talented and are willing to work extremely hard.
"  I, too, expect an explosion of quality research coming from China -- the combination of good academics and increasing disposable income (at the national level) from an improving economy will make it so.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705472</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706610</id>
	<title>Re:probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1263043980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> If an NSF grant spends $200,000 paying the stipends+tuition of 5 students</p></div><p>Then it's getting a ridiculously good deal.  That's $40K/student.  A typical PhD in the USA takes at least 5 years, so that's under $10K/student/year, which doesn't even cover stipend or tuition, let alone both.</p><p>
For reference, the grant that I was on for my PhD was for &pound;500,000 (around $1m at the time) and paid for four PhD students and one research assistant.  Including office space, overheads (equipment, infrastructure maintenance, technicians salaries and so on) charged by the university, and my stipend and conference budget, the EPSRC paid around &pound;100,000 per PhD.  On top of this, I got an extra &pound;25,000 grant (split between me and my supervisor) for travel, so the total cost to the EPSRC for my PhD was around &pound;112,500.  </p><p>
Producing a PhD student costs around quarter of a million dollars, probably more[1].  The ROI that the funding bodies expect is a greater body of scientists doing research, which increases the amount of tax revenue available by increasing industrial output.  If the students are leaving the country, then it's not a particularly good return.  That's why it's much harder for students from outside of the EU to get funding for a PhD here.
</p><p>
[1] PhD students are paid more in the UK.  When I finished, we got &pound;12,000/year, but it had gone up every year.  Unlike the USA, stipends are not taxable, so this is take-home pay and is pretty close to an entry level salary for a graduate after deducting tax and NI.  On the flip side, PhDs here only take 3-4 years (in part because we don't need to work or teach while doing them), so the total stipend is probably about the same.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If an NSF grant spends $ 200,000 paying the stipends + tuition of 5 studentsThen it 's getting a ridiculously good deal .
That 's $ 40K/student .
A typical PhD in the USA takes at least 5 years , so that 's under $ 10K/student/year , which does n't even cover stipend or tuition , let alone both .
For reference , the grant that I was on for my PhD was for   500,000 ( around $ 1m at the time ) and paid for four PhD students and one research assistant .
Including office space , overheads ( equipment , infrastructure maintenance , technicians salaries and so on ) charged by the university , and my stipend and conference budget , the EPSRC paid around   100,000 per PhD .
On top of this , I got an extra   25,000 grant ( split between me and my supervisor ) for travel , so the total cost to the EPSRC for my PhD was around   112,500 .
Producing a PhD student costs around quarter of a million dollars , probably more [ 1 ] .
The ROI that the funding bodies expect is a greater body of scientists doing research , which increases the amount of tax revenue available by increasing industrial output .
If the students are leaving the country , then it 's not a particularly good return .
That 's why it 's much harder for students from outside of the EU to get funding for a PhD here .
[ 1 ] PhD students are paid more in the UK .
When I finished , we got   12,000/year , but it had gone up every year .
Unlike the USA , stipends are not taxable , so this is take-home pay and is pretty close to an entry level salary for a graduate after deducting tax and NI .
On the flip side , PhDs here only take 3-4 years ( in part because we do n't need to work or teach while doing them ) , so the total stipend is probably about the same .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> If an NSF grant spends $200,000 paying the stipends+tuition of 5 studentsThen it's getting a ridiculously good deal.
That's $40K/student.
A typical PhD in the USA takes at least 5 years, so that's under $10K/student/year, which doesn't even cover stipend or tuition, let alone both.
For reference, the grant that I was on for my PhD was for £500,000 (around $1m at the time) and paid for four PhD students and one research assistant.
Including office space, overheads (equipment, infrastructure maintenance, technicians salaries and so on) charged by the university, and my stipend and conference budget, the EPSRC paid around £100,000 per PhD.
On top of this, I got an extra £25,000 grant (split between me and my supervisor) for travel, so the total cost to the EPSRC for my PhD was around £112,500.
Producing a PhD student costs around quarter of a million dollars, probably more[1].
The ROI that the funding bodies expect is a greater body of scientists doing research, which increases the amount of tax revenue available by increasing industrial output.
If the students are leaving the country, then it's not a particularly good return.
That's why it's much harder for students from outside of the EU to get funding for a PhD here.
[1] PhD students are paid more in the UK.
When I finished, we got £12,000/year, but it had gone up every year.
Unlike the USA, stipends are not taxable, so this is take-home pay and is pretty close to an entry level salary for a graduate after deducting tax and NI.
On the flip side, PhDs here only take 3-4 years (in part because we don't need to work or teach while doing them), so the total stipend is probably about the same.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707394</id>
	<title>Re:probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263053880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The real problem is that Chinese students won't want to come to North America to work for food anymore, when they can stay at home and work for food.  North America has a shortage of qualified domestic students who are willing to do the same.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The real problem is that Chinese students wo n't want to come to North America to work for food anymore , when they can stay at home and work for food .
North America has a shortage of qualified domestic students who are willing to do the same .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The real problem is that Chinese students won't want to come to North America to work for food anymore, when they can stay at home and work for food.
North America has a shortage of qualified domestic students who are willing to do the same.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705356</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705358</id>
	<title>Unsuitable for Socialists</title>
	<author>Sigvatr</author>
	<datestamp>1263067440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>This topic has been censored by the Chinese Communist Party.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This topic has been censored by the Chinese Communist Party .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This topic has been censored by the Chinese Communist Party.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705722</id>
	<title>Re:I think the worse problem is the other way arou</title>
	<author>interkin3tic</author>
	<datestamp>1263029580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>In general until that point, it's still worth it to fund their education just for the work they do as a grad student, and the likely work they will do in the US afterwards, even if a few end up going home and working and contributing heavily in another economy.</p></div><p>Speaking as a grad student, it's not like we're paid that much, <a href="http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1215" title="phdcomics.com">less than unemployment on average apparently.</a> [phdcomics.com]  Cheaper in many cases than hiring a non-grad student to do the same work.  The lab gets cheap labor, and the student gets an education.  Even if those students don't stay, I expect it adds up to a net benefit for us.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In general until that point , it 's still worth it to fund their education just for the work they do as a grad student , and the likely work they will do in the US afterwards , even if a few end up going home and working and contributing heavily in another economy.Speaking as a grad student , it 's not like we 're paid that much , less than unemployment on average apparently .
[ phdcomics.com ] Cheaper in many cases than hiring a non-grad student to do the same work .
The lab gets cheap labor , and the student gets an education .
Even if those students do n't stay , I expect it adds up to a net benefit for us .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In general until that point, it's still worth it to fund their education just for the work they do as a grad student, and the likely work they will do in the US afterwards, even if a few end up going home and working and contributing heavily in another economy.Speaking as a grad student, it's not like we're paid that much, less than unemployment on average apparently.
[phdcomics.com]  Cheaper in many cases than hiring a non-grad student to do the same work.
The lab gets cheap labor, and the student gets an education.
Even if those students don't stay, I expect it adds up to a net benefit for us.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30710630</id>
	<title>sadscientist</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263041100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When US universities produce basic research using foreign students, they are able to provide support services to US students like TA,RA etc. Without foreign students, most universities will close and so the US education system.<br>However, once the outcome of the tax payer  funded research is transferred to private companies in US without getting any thing in return, they sell the technologies and IP to foreign countries for a huge profit . US tax payers gets nothing back.<br>Politicians pocket their share from these loots as bribe through lobbyist. Neither the researcher nor the university nor the public at large benefit from this game. In any case, if people want to return to their country, they will still have good will for US unlike some religious fanatics. Knowledge is to be shared. If Aristotle et al., had not trained foreigners, do you think we would have acquired their knowledge. Most US PHDd's get their degree on applied areas, thus are bad researchers and teacher. Those who have done basic research alone can bring up this country. Are we ready to encourage the best to go into basic research? If not, suffer the consequences of other 3rd world countries. If intellectual freedom is the choice, people will stay in the US else they move on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When US universities produce basic research using foreign students , they are able to provide support services to US students like TA,RA etc .
Without foreign students , most universities will close and so the US education system.However , once the outcome of the tax payer funded research is transferred to private companies in US without getting any thing in return , they sell the technologies and IP to foreign countries for a huge profit .
US tax payers gets nothing back.Politicians pocket their share from these loots as bribe through lobbyist .
Neither the researcher nor the university nor the public at large benefit from this game .
In any case , if people want to return to their country , they will still have good will for US unlike some religious fanatics .
Knowledge is to be shared .
If Aristotle et al. , had not trained foreigners , do you think we would have acquired their knowledge .
Most US PHDd 's get their degree on applied areas , thus are bad researchers and teacher .
Those who have done basic research alone can bring up this country .
Are we ready to encourage the best to go into basic research ?
If not , suffer the consequences of other 3rd world countries .
If intellectual freedom is the choice , people will stay in the US else they move on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When US universities produce basic research using foreign students, they are able to provide support services to US students like TA,RA etc.
Without foreign students, most universities will close and so the US education system.However, once the outcome of the tax payer  funded research is transferred to private companies in US without getting any thing in return, they sell the technologies and IP to foreign countries for a huge profit .
US tax payers gets nothing back.Politicians pocket their share from these loots as bribe through lobbyist.
Neither the researcher nor the university nor the public at large benefit from this game.
In any case, if people want to return to their country, they will still have good will for US unlike some religious fanatics.
Knowledge is to be shared.
If Aristotle et al., had not trained foreigners, do you think we would have acquired their knowledge.
Most US PHDd's get their degree on applied areas, thus are bad researchers and teacher.
Those who have done basic research alone can bring up this country.
Are we ready to encourage the best to go into basic research?
If not, suffer the consequences of other 3rd world countries.
If intellectual freedom is the choice, people will stay in the US else they move on.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705662</id>
	<title>It doesn't matter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263028740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are way more Phds than jobs for them in this country.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are way more Phds than jobs for them in this country .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are way more Phds than jobs for them in this country.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707666</id>
	<title>huh huh</title>
	<author>BUTT-H34D</author>
	<datestamp>1263056880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Huh huh.  They're SLOPEing off.  Heh heh.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Huh huh .
They 're SLOPEing off .
Heh heh .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Huh huh.
They're SLOPEing off.
Heh heh.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705942</id>
	<title>Grapes turned sour?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263032880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>As alluded in the article, Chinese science remains far behind, especially because of rampant cronyism in academia as well as government</p></div><p>This article from New Scientist:</p><p><a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527426.900-get-ready-for-chinas-domination-of-science.html" title="newscientist.com">http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527426.900-get-ready-for-chinas-domination-of-science.html</a> [newscientist.com]</p><p>doesn't agree. Chinese science is in fact well up there with the rest of the world, and will overtake us soon. There is nothing strange in this - while we in the West have grown rather complacent about education, which is necessary for science, the Chinese have been ramping up their investments in education and science. This, by the way, is something their government have decided, so this jibe about ".. as well as government" seems particularly misplaced in this context.</p><p>When China was a closed country not long ago, you Americans couldn't shut up about how everything would be so much better if China would open up and become part of the global world. Now they have done that, and you whine because they turned out to be bloody clever; and all you have left is yesterday's cold-war rhetoric. The competition from China is good for us - it will make realise that we have to get our act together and sharpen up.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As alluded in the article , Chinese science remains far behind , especially because of rampant cronyism in academia as well as governmentThis article from New Scientist : http : //www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527426.900-get-ready-for-chinas-domination-of-science.html [ newscientist.com ] does n't agree .
Chinese science is in fact well up there with the rest of the world , and will overtake us soon .
There is nothing strange in this - while we in the West have grown rather complacent about education , which is necessary for science , the Chinese have been ramping up their investments in education and science .
This , by the way , is something their government have decided , so this jibe about " .. as well as government " seems particularly misplaced in this context.When China was a closed country not long ago , you Americans could n't shut up about how everything would be so much better if China would open up and become part of the global world .
Now they have done that , and you whine because they turned out to be bloody clever ; and all you have left is yesterday 's cold-war rhetoric .
The competition from China is good for us - it will make realise that we have to get our act together and sharpen up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As alluded in the article, Chinese science remains far behind, especially because of rampant cronyism in academia as well as governmentThis article from New Scientist:http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527426.900-get-ready-for-chinas-domination-of-science.html [newscientist.com]doesn't agree.
Chinese science is in fact well up there with the rest of the world, and will overtake us soon.
There is nothing strange in this - while we in the West have grown rather complacent about education, which is necessary for science, the Chinese have been ramping up their investments in education and science.
This, by the way, is something their government have decided, so this jibe about ".. as well as government" seems particularly misplaced in this context.When China was a closed country not long ago, you Americans couldn't shut up about how everything would be so much better if China would open up and become part of the global world.
Now they have done that, and you whine because they turned out to be bloody clever; and all you have left is yesterday's cold-war rhetoric.
The competition from China is good for us - it will make realise that we have to get our act together and sharpen up.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30715802</id>
	<title>Re:Simple question...simple answer.</title>
	<author>the gnat</author>
	<datestamp>1263151800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>It has nothing to do with their education and everything to do with taxpayers money being used (in the form of grants) to pay for that education.</i></p><p>I'm a bit hazy on the specifics, but I believe that training grants may not be used for foreign nationals.  For the first two years of graduate school, my stipend was paid from these grants, and most of my classmates were funded the same way.  Foreign students, on the other hand, had to be funded separately, or so one of the professors told me.</p><p>Once students joined a lab and passed their qualifying exam, they were generally paid from the professor's grant money (usually NIH).  However, at that point they're basically a full-time (at least!) researcher, and you're getting highly-trained labor (at least a BS plus advanced technical skills, and usually some real-life work experience, perhaps a publication record too) for around $40,000 per year once tuition/fees are included (the actual stipend is around $25,000).  Postdocs get paid a little better (the base pay is slightly under $40,000), but that's for someone who spent most of their 20s in school and has a PhD or MD.  I suppose we could just tell foreign students and postdocs to fuck off and try to run our national basic research infrastructure on American labor only, but I doubt you'll find qualified Americans rushing to fill the void for such low salaries.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It has nothing to do with their education and everything to do with taxpayers money being used ( in the form of grants ) to pay for that education.I 'm a bit hazy on the specifics , but I believe that training grants may not be used for foreign nationals .
For the first two years of graduate school , my stipend was paid from these grants , and most of my classmates were funded the same way .
Foreign students , on the other hand , had to be funded separately , or so one of the professors told me.Once students joined a lab and passed their qualifying exam , they were generally paid from the professor 's grant money ( usually NIH ) .
However , at that point they 're basically a full-time ( at least !
) researcher , and you 're getting highly-trained labor ( at least a BS plus advanced technical skills , and usually some real-life work experience , perhaps a publication record too ) for around $ 40,000 per year once tuition/fees are included ( the actual stipend is around $ 25,000 ) .
Postdocs get paid a little better ( the base pay is slightly under $ 40,000 ) , but that 's for someone who spent most of their 20s in school and has a PhD or MD .
I suppose we could just tell foreign students and postdocs to fuck off and try to run our national basic research infrastructure on American labor only , but I doubt you 'll find qualified Americans rushing to fill the void for such low salaries .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It has nothing to do with their education and everything to do with taxpayers money being used (in the form of grants) to pay for that education.I'm a bit hazy on the specifics, but I believe that training grants may not be used for foreign nationals.
For the first two years of graduate school, my stipend was paid from these grants, and most of my classmates were funded the same way.
Foreign students, on the other hand, had to be funded separately, or so one of the professors told me.Once students joined a lab and passed their qualifying exam, they were generally paid from the professor's grant money (usually NIH).
However, at that point they're basically a full-time (at least!
) researcher, and you're getting highly-trained labor (at least a BS plus advanced technical skills, and usually some real-life work experience, perhaps a publication record too) for around $40,000 per year once tuition/fees are included (the actual stipend is around $25,000).
Postdocs get paid a little better (the base pay is slightly under $40,000), but that's for someone who spent most of their 20s in school and has a PhD or MD.
I suppose we could just tell foreign students and postdocs to fuck off and try to run our national basic research infrastructure on American labor only, but I doubt you'll find qualified Americans rushing to fill the void for such low salaries.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705812</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705606</id>
	<title>summary is economically confused</title>
	<author>philgross</author>
	<datestamp>1263070740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>The summary makes it sounds like the US is doing a favor and donating generously to the rest of the world by funding foreign PhDs.  A more accurate description would be that we taking the extreme cream of the crop, educated at great expense in other countries, and then luring them to the United States, where they further strengthen our already best-in-the-world universities, and the great majority stay permanently.  The article describes a slight moderation in this trend, with a few more scholars choosing to return (although also describing the obstacles they face when they do).
<p>
The overall benefits of this system continue to be overwhelmingly in the favor of the United States.  Even those who do return to their home countries go back with a much deeper understanding of the US, not to mention greater English fluency.
</p><p>
The restrictions on foreign students in the aftermath of 9/11 stood out among the other security-theater policies for their active harmfulness.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The summary makes it sounds like the US is doing a favor and donating generously to the rest of the world by funding foreign PhDs .
A more accurate description would be that we taking the extreme cream of the crop , educated at great expense in other countries , and then luring them to the United States , where they further strengthen our already best-in-the-world universities , and the great majority stay permanently .
The article describes a slight moderation in this trend , with a few more scholars choosing to return ( although also describing the obstacles they face when they do ) .
The overall benefits of this system continue to be overwhelmingly in the favor of the United States .
Even those who do return to their home countries go back with a much deeper understanding of the US , not to mention greater English fluency .
The restrictions on foreign students in the aftermath of 9/11 stood out among the other security-theater policies for their active harmfulness .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The summary makes it sounds like the US is doing a favor and donating generously to the rest of the world by funding foreign PhDs.
A more accurate description would be that we taking the extreme cream of the crop, educated at great expense in other countries, and then luring them to the United States, where they further strengthen our already best-in-the-world universities, and the great majority stay permanently.
The article describes a slight moderation in this trend, with a few more scholars choosing to return (although also describing the obstacles they face when they do).
The overall benefits of this system continue to be overwhelmingly in the favor of the United States.
Even those who do return to their home countries go back with a much deeper understanding of the US, not to mention greater English fluency.
The restrictions on foreign students in the aftermath of 9/11 stood out among the other security-theater policies for their active harmfulness.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707746</id>
	<title>Re:We are asking the same in India</title>
	<author>khallow</author>
	<datestamp>1263057840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>As a leader, it is the responsibility of a country like US to help everyone grow. If the US does not demonstrate leadership traits, someone else will. Leadership is not simply about more money/resources/power. It is about being a "leader" and behaving like one.</p></div><p>LOL. Ignoring that any "leaders" are actively undermined by a significant portion of other countries, why does "leading" mean here sacrificing a particular country's well being for the convenience of some other country to which the speaker probably happens to belong? India doesn't need help growing. There are centuries of history, cheat sheets if you will, for how to transition to a country that is at the head of the pack. India has all the resources it needs to do that.<br> <br>

If the US doesn't continue to provide the environment that just so happens to appeal to many of the best and brightest, then it becomes merely a very expensive place to buy stuff.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As a leader , it is the responsibility of a country like US to help everyone grow .
If the US does not demonstrate leadership traits , someone else will .
Leadership is not simply about more money/resources/power .
It is about being a " leader " and behaving like one.LOL .
Ignoring that any " leaders " are actively undermined by a significant portion of other countries , why does " leading " mean here sacrificing a particular country 's well being for the convenience of some other country to which the speaker probably happens to belong ?
India does n't need help growing .
There are centuries of history , cheat sheets if you will , for how to transition to a country that is at the head of the pack .
India has all the resources it needs to do that .
If the US does n't continue to provide the environment that just so happens to appeal to many of the best and brightest , then it becomes merely a very expensive place to buy stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a leader, it is the responsibility of a country like US to help everyone grow.
If the US does not demonstrate leadership traits, someone else will.
Leadership is not simply about more money/resources/power.
It is about being a "leader" and behaving like one.LOL.
Ignoring that any "leaders" are actively undermined by a significant portion of other countries, why does "leading" mean here sacrificing a particular country's well being for the convenience of some other country to which the speaker probably happens to belong?
India doesn't need help growing.
There are centuries of history, cheat sheets if you will, for how to transition to a country that is at the head of the pack.
India has all the resources it needs to do that.
If the US doesn't continue to provide the environment that just so happens to appeal to many of the best and brightest, then it becomes merely a very expensive place to buy stuff.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705594</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705718</id>
	<title>It's the economics...dude</title>
	<author>GSGKT</author>
	<datestamp>1263029520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Smart and motivated people is in limited supply, so nations would complete for them.  No graduate students, or postdocs, have ever got rich from their stipends while perform research in the US.  Otherwise more American youth would want to work in university laboratories instead of the Wall Street.  China is doing everything to bring their best talents home, because they also have invested a lot of resources on them.  It still a sound investment for the US to attract the best talents from anywhere in the world to be educated and perform research here.  If just the top 10\% of these people decide to stay in this country, then everyone benefits from that.  Furthermore, it is easier to find and recruit the best talents and for them want to stay, if they are educated here...most be the koolaid you find in the cafeteria.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Smart and motivated people is in limited supply , so nations would complete for them .
No graduate students , or postdocs , have ever got rich from their stipends while perform research in the US .
Otherwise more American youth would want to work in university laboratories instead of the Wall Street .
China is doing everything to bring their best talents home , because they also have invested a lot of resources on them .
It still a sound investment for the US to attract the best talents from anywhere in the world to be educated and perform research here .
If just the top 10 \ % of these people decide to stay in this country , then everyone benefits from that .
Furthermore , it is easier to find and recruit the best talents and for them want to stay , if they are educated here...most be the koolaid you find in the cafeteria .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Smart and motivated people is in limited supply, so nations would complete for them.
No graduate students, or postdocs, have ever got rich from their stipends while perform research in the US.
Otherwise more American youth would want to work in university laboratories instead of the Wall Street.
China is doing everything to bring their best talents home, because they also have invested a lot of resources on them.
It still a sound investment for the US to attract the best talents from anywhere in the world to be educated and perform research here.
If just the top 10\% of these people decide to stay in this country, then everyone benefits from that.
Furthermore, it is easier to find and recruit the best talents and for them want to stay, if they are educated here...most be the koolaid you find in the cafeteria.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707722</id>
	<title>Re:Simple question...simple answer.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263057480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>apparently you're just one of the many billions who think that the US exists solely to be the global sugar daddy.</p></div></blockquote><p>

Could you be any more wrong about the US/China relationship?  We owe them <a href="http://www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt" title="treas.gov">$800,000,000,000</a> [treas.gov].  It's pretty obvious who's the sugar daddy.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>apparently you 're just one of the many billions who think that the US exists solely to be the global sugar daddy .
Could you be any more wrong about the US/China relationship ?
We owe them $ 800,000,000,000 [ treas.gov ] .
It 's pretty obvious who 's the sugar daddy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>apparently you're just one of the many billions who think that the US exists solely to be the global sugar daddy.
Could you be any more wrong about the US/China relationship?
We owe them $800,000,000,000 [treas.gov].
It's pretty obvious who's the sugar daddy.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705812</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30708034</id>
	<title>Re:Green card</title>
	<author>PingPongBoy</author>
	<datestamp>1263060300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><em>Seriously. Anyone earning a bachelors (let alone a masters or a PhD) in a "hard" science or a list of accepted majors (CS, EE/ME/etc.) should have a green card stapled to their diploma at their commencement ceremony</em></p><p>For some that green card won't be used. There are two major incentives to import education to the developing world. For one, it's developing, so there can be enormous opportunity to anyone with education. For two, businesses looking for outsourcing to cut their labor will fund brain drain in spite of the hazards of building up a competing economy.</p><p>A competing economy is a better customer for exports anyways, so how bad can it be?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously .
Anyone earning a bachelors ( let alone a masters or a PhD ) in a " hard " science or a list of accepted majors ( CS , EE/ME/etc .
) should have a green card stapled to their diploma at their commencement ceremonyFor some that green card wo n't be used .
There are two major incentives to import education to the developing world .
For one , it 's developing , so there can be enormous opportunity to anyone with education .
For two , businesses looking for outsourcing to cut their labor will fund brain drain in spite of the hazards of building up a competing economy.A competing economy is a better customer for exports anyways , so how bad can it be ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously.
Anyone earning a bachelors (let alone a masters or a PhD) in a "hard" science or a list of accepted majors (CS, EE/ME/etc.
) should have a green card stapled to their diploma at their commencement ceremonyFor some that green card won't be used.
There are two major incentives to import education to the developing world.
For one, it's developing, so there can be enormous opportunity to anyone with education.
For two, businesses looking for outsourcing to cut their labor will fund brain drain in spite of the hazards of building up a competing economy.A competing economy is a better customer for exports anyways, so how bad can it be?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705544</id>
	<title>Re:probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>Daniel Dvorkin</author>
	<datestamp>1263069780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is true from the professors' and universities' POV, but not necessarily from the US government's.  Grad student stipends in the sciences are often tied to grants from the NIH, NSF, etc., and that is very definitely seen as an investment:  training the next generation of American scientists and engineers.  If the government thinks it's not going to see some ROI, this may change, and the fallout could affect students from the US as well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is true from the professors ' and universities ' POV , but not necessarily from the US government 's .
Grad student stipends in the sciences are often tied to grants from the NIH , NSF , etc. , and that is very definitely seen as an investment : training the next generation of American scientists and engineers .
If the government thinks it 's not going to see some ROI , this may change , and the fallout could affect students from the US as well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is true from the professors' and universities' POV, but not necessarily from the US government's.
Grad student stipends in the sciences are often tied to grants from the NIH, NSF, etc., and that is very definitely seen as an investment:  training the next generation of American scientists and engineers.
If the government thinks it's not going to see some ROI, this may change, and the fallout could affect students from the US as well.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705356</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707466</id>
	<title>Re:probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263054540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While everything you say makes sense, it answers the wrong question.</p><p>Certainly universities want the very best students available in their graduate programs (except for students with a very rich or politically well connected daddy, but those don't count). What we don't know is how much better the foreign students are than the American students who didn't get in. Is an apparently better foreign student who might return home a better investment than the US student? Obviously you want the superstars going to the top universities no matter what, but below the elite level it's not so clear that there aren't enough qualified US citizens to go around. In light of the <a href="http://grants.nih.gov/recovery/" title="nih.gov"> billions of dollars </a> [nih.gov] the current administration is allocating to <a href="http://www.nigms.nih.gov/Minority/" title="nih.gov">affirmative action programs</a> [nih.gov], the emphasis seems to be less on qualifications and more on politics anyway.</p><p>.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While everything you say makes sense , it answers the wrong question.Certainly universities want the very best students available in their graduate programs ( except for students with a very rich or politically well connected daddy , but those do n't count ) .
What we do n't know is how much better the foreign students are than the American students who did n't get in .
Is an apparently better foreign student who might return home a better investment than the US student ?
Obviously you want the superstars going to the top universities no matter what , but below the elite level it 's not so clear that there are n't enough qualified US citizens to go around .
In light of the billions of dollars [ nih.gov ] the current administration is allocating to affirmative action programs [ nih.gov ] , the emphasis seems to be less on qualifications and more on politics anyway. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While everything you say makes sense, it answers the wrong question.Certainly universities want the very best students available in their graduate programs (except for students with a very rich or politically well connected daddy, but those don't count).
What we don't know is how much better the foreign students are than the American students who didn't get in.
Is an apparently better foreign student who might return home a better investment than the US student?
Obviously you want the superstars going to the top universities no matter what, but below the elite level it's not so clear that there aren't enough qualified US citizens to go around.
In light of the  billions of dollars  [nih.gov] the current administration is allocating to affirmative action programs [nih.gov], the emphasis seems to be less on qualifications and more on politics anyway..</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705356</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705356</id>
	<title>probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263067440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Especially in the lab sciences, you're not paying that PhD student's meagre stipend out of altruism, hoping that they'll one day blossom into a lovely scientist. You're paying it because you need people to do the research: the professor is more of a manager of a large-ish lab so unable to do it him/herself, and hiring actual research scientists on the open market would cost a lot more than $20-25k, and they would  expect more reasonable working hours. Considering the proportion of the work that actually gets done by grad students, it's a bargain.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Especially in the lab sciences , you 're not paying that PhD student 's meagre stipend out of altruism , hoping that they 'll one day blossom into a lovely scientist .
You 're paying it because you need people to do the research : the professor is more of a manager of a large-ish lab so unable to do it him/herself , and hiring actual research scientists on the open market would cost a lot more than $ 20-25k , and they would expect more reasonable working hours .
Considering the proportion of the work that actually gets done by grad students , it 's a bargain .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Especially in the lab sciences, you're not paying that PhD student's meagre stipend out of altruism, hoping that they'll one day blossom into a lovely scientist.
You're paying it because you need people to do the research: the professor is more of a manager of a large-ish lab so unable to do it him/herself, and hiring actual research scientists on the open market would cost a lot more than $20-25k, and they would  expect more reasonable working hours.
Considering the proportion of the work that actually gets done by grad students, it's a bargain.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706388</id>
	<title>Re:probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>greppling</author>
	<datestamp>1263040320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>All NSF stipends for graduate students in my field (math) can only be given to US passport or greencard holders.
(Other grad students earn their salary via their teaching.)</htmltext>
<tokenext>All NSF stipends for graduate students in my field ( math ) can only be given to US passport or greencard holders .
( Other grad students earn their salary via their teaching .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All NSF stipends for graduate students in my field (math) can only be given to US passport or greencard holders.
(Other grad students earn their salary via their teaching.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705544</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706116</id>
	<title>Re:probably still makes sense</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263035460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i> The best science and the most intellectually stimulating jobs are in the US</i></p><p>The US is in terminal decline, bankrupt at the whim of China. In the near future, the best science will be in China, as that is where the real money is.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The best science and the most intellectually stimulating jobs are in the USThe US is in terminal decline , bankrupt at the whim of China .
In the near future , the best science will be in China , as that is where the real money is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> The best science and the most intellectually stimulating jobs are in the USThe US is in terminal decline, bankrupt at the whim of China.
In the near future, the best science will be in China, as that is where the real money is.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705356</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30707606</id>
	<title>Not wanted in the US</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263056280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>From a foreign Ph.D. student perspective it is pretty clear that we are merely tolerated in the US, and there is no interest in keeping us.
Capping the number of H1-B visas and making the visa and green card application process a nightmare is a clear indication of the lack of interest from the US government (or probably the US public opinion) in retaining highly educated and skilled professionals. We clearly feel unwanted, unappreciated and tolerated as an "evil" necessity by the general population. We are given much less consideration and opportunities in comparison to our US-born colleagues, often regardless of merit (see the admission statistics of US/nonUS nationals for HOT Ph.D. areas such as biomedical engineering). Anyone that has an even decent opportunity in his country of origin (or continent of origin for Europeans) will definitely go beck unless they have political or ethical issues with their home country.</htmltext>
<tokenext>From a foreign Ph.D. student perspective it is pretty clear that we are merely tolerated in the US , and there is no interest in keeping us .
Capping the number of H1-B visas and making the visa and green card application process a nightmare is a clear indication of the lack of interest from the US government ( or probably the US public opinion ) in retaining highly educated and skilled professionals .
We clearly feel unwanted , unappreciated and tolerated as an " evil " necessity by the general population .
We are given much less consideration and opportunities in comparison to our US-born colleagues , often regardless of merit ( see the admission statistics of US/nonUS nationals for HOT Ph.D. areas such as biomedical engineering ) .
Anyone that has an even decent opportunity in his country of origin ( or continent of origin for Europeans ) will definitely go beck unless they have political or ethical issues with their home country .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From a foreign Ph.D. student perspective it is pretty clear that we are merely tolerated in the US, and there is no interest in keeping us.
Capping the number of H1-B visas and making the visa and green card application process a nightmare is a clear indication of the lack of interest from the US government (or probably the US public opinion) in retaining highly educated and skilled professionals.
We clearly feel unwanted, unappreciated and tolerated as an "evil" necessity by the general population.
We are given much less consideration and opportunities in comparison to our US-born colleagues, often regardless of merit (see the admission statistics of US/nonUS nationals for HOT Ph.D. areas such as biomedical engineering).
Anyone that has an even decent opportunity in his country of origin (or continent of origin for Europeans) will definitely go beck unless they have political or ethical issues with their home country.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30706056</id>
	<title>Re:The Worm Turns</title>
	<author>eclectro</author>
	<datestamp>1263034620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yup. It's a shame we ran out of Nazis to help with the space program though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yup .
It 's a shame we ran out of Nazis to help with the space program though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yup.
It's a shame we ran out of Nazis to help with the space program though.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705446</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30708096</id>
	<title>Different people make different arguments</title>
	<author>weston</author>
	<datestamp>1263060780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>People who rely on employment to make money rightfully fear an increased and talented labor pool leading to more competition in the labor market. People who rely on talented and affordable labor to make money rightfully fear a decreased and talent-drained labor pool, leading to scarcity in the labor market.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People who rely on employment to make money rightfully fear an increased and talented labor pool leading to more competition in the labor market .
People who rely on talented and affordable labor to make money rightfully fear a decreased and talent-drained labor pool , leading to scarcity in the labor market .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People who rely on employment to make money rightfully fear an increased and talented labor pool leading to more competition in the labor market.
People who rely on talented and affordable labor to make money rightfully fear a decreased and talent-drained labor pool, leading to scarcity in the labor market.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30714462</id>
	<title>Aim at foot. Fire!</title>
	<author>colleesu</author>
	<datestamp>1263138660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In the past 10 years, flying into the U.S. for foreign graduate students has become excrutiatingly painful. The number of academics who are willing to fly into the States for conferences is dwindling. The recent uptick in security means... well... who wants to go through that if you can choose not to?

In a letter this past week, the interim President of University of Illinois said that the institution has received only 7\% of their budget from the State since July, and that staff furloughs may not be enough. In other words, administrative and professors may be layed off. This despite the fact that more Americans than ever are going back to school (probably because they can't find jobs). Other schools may not be so direly affected, but things are looking a tad bleak.

The American economy has been severely affected by the housing crisis, moreso than other countries.

All of this = a university and research in the U.S. could well be on a downward spiral.

Who the heck wants to stick around for that?</htmltext>
<tokenext>In the past 10 years , flying into the U.S. for foreign graduate students has become excrutiatingly painful .
The number of academics who are willing to fly into the States for conferences is dwindling .
The recent uptick in security means... well... who wants to go through that if you can choose not to ?
In a letter this past week , the interim President of University of Illinois said that the institution has received only 7 \ % of their budget from the State since July , and that staff furloughs may not be enough .
In other words , administrative and professors may be layed off .
This despite the fact that more Americans than ever are going back to school ( probably because they ca n't find jobs ) .
Other schools may not be so direly affected , but things are looking a tad bleak .
The American economy has been severely affected by the housing crisis , moreso than other countries .
All of this = a university and research in the U.S. could well be on a downward spiral .
Who the heck wants to stick around for that ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the past 10 years, flying into the U.S. for foreign graduate students has become excrutiatingly painful.
The number of academics who are willing to fly into the States for conferences is dwindling.
The recent uptick in security means... well... who wants to go through that if you can choose not to?
In a letter this past week, the interim President of University of Illinois said that the institution has received only 7\% of their budget from the State since July, and that staff furloughs may not be enough.
In other words, administrative and professors may be layed off.
This despite the fact that more Americans than ever are going back to school (probably because they can't find jobs).
Other schools may not be so direly affected, but things are looking a tad bleak.
The American economy has been severely affected by the housing crisis, moreso than other countries.
All of this = a university and research in the U.S. could well be on a downward spiral.
Who the heck wants to stick around for that?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705660</id>
	<title>yes it does make sens to pay for others' education</title>
	<author>LosManos</author>
	<datestamp>1263028740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes it does make sense to pay for others' education.  I would go so far as to say it is our duty, where "our" is us in the rich countries, to help the world.
<br> <br>
- or if you are cheaper think of it like this -
<br> <br>
Say someone gets educated in a country and learns a bit about the language and culture and gets some friends.  Then this said person returns to country of birth and starts a business with some international connections.
It is then plausible that the place of known culture and language and where friends reside is a more likely country to trade and work with.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes it does make sense to pay for others ' education .
I would go so far as to say it is our duty , where " our " is us in the rich countries , to help the world .
- or if you are cheaper think of it like this - Say someone gets educated in a country and learns a bit about the language and culture and gets some friends .
Then this said person returns to country of birth and starts a business with some international connections .
It is then plausible that the place of known culture and language and where friends reside is a more likely country to trade and work with .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes it does make sense to pay for others' education.
I would go so far as to say it is our duty, where "our" is us in the rich countries, to help the world.
- or if you are cheaper think of it like this -
 
Say someone gets educated in a country and learns a bit about the language and culture and gets some friends.
Then this said person returns to country of birth and starts a business with some international connections.
It is then plausible that the place of known culture and language and where friends reside is a more likely country to trade and work with.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705860</id>
	<title>Yet another article</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263031380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Every year, the US media feels obliged to panic about some high-profile scientist that returns to China/India.  In most cases, the same scientist will come back to the USA after 1-2 years, because they grew frustrated with the backwardness, lack of freedoms in their home country.  These guys gave up promising jobs in the USA, so they have to go to some much less prestigious job in the US.</p><p>Don't believe me?  Here's one example.  <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/28/business/global/28return.html?\_r=1&amp;ref=global-home" title="nytimes.com">http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/28/business/global/28return.html?\_r=1&amp;ref=global-home</a> [nytimes.com]</p><p>In the same vein, US universities like to loudly proclaim the opening of campuses in Asia, such as in Singapore, Dubai, or South Korea.  Most of the campuses end up being shut down after about 3 years, because they couldn't get enough students, and the students they could get were of very low caliber.  In the meanwhile, student tuition experiences huge hikes to pay for the millions of dollars to open new campuses, university administrators pat themselves on the back and give themselves huge bonuses, then when they shut the campuses down, they give themselves bonuses again for "cutting costs".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Every year , the US media feels obliged to panic about some high-profile scientist that returns to China/India .
In most cases , the same scientist will come back to the USA after 1-2 years , because they grew frustrated with the backwardness , lack of freedoms in their home country .
These guys gave up promising jobs in the USA , so they have to go to some much less prestigious job in the US.Do n't believe me ?
Here 's one example .
http : //www.nytimes.com/2009/11/28/business/global/28return.html ? \ _r = 1&amp;ref = global-home [ nytimes.com ] In the same vein , US universities like to loudly proclaim the opening of campuses in Asia , such as in Singapore , Dubai , or South Korea .
Most of the campuses end up being shut down after about 3 years , because they could n't get enough students , and the students they could get were of very low caliber .
In the meanwhile , student tuition experiences huge hikes to pay for the millions of dollars to open new campuses , university administrators pat themselves on the back and give themselves huge bonuses , then when they shut the campuses down , they give themselves bonuses again for " cutting costs " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Every year, the US media feels obliged to panic about some high-profile scientist that returns to China/India.
In most cases, the same scientist will come back to the USA after 1-2 years, because they grew frustrated with the backwardness, lack of freedoms in their home country.
These guys gave up promising jobs in the USA, so they have to go to some much less prestigious job in the US.Don't believe me?
Here's one example.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/28/business/global/28return.html?\_r=1&amp;ref=global-home [nytimes.com]In the same vein, US universities like to loudly proclaim the opening of campuses in Asia, such as in Singapore, Dubai, or South Korea.
Most of the campuses end up being shut down after about 3 years, because they couldn't get enough students, and the students they could get were of very low caliber.
In the meanwhile, student tuition experiences huge hikes to pay for the millions of dollars to open new campuses, university administrators pat themselves on the back and give themselves huge bonuses, then when they shut the campuses down, they give themselves bonuses again for "cutting costs".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705972</id>
	<title>"Home" is not that sweet as one might think</title>
	<author>nkeric</author>
	<datestamp>1263033480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>For anyone who wants to come back, please read this and <strong>think twice</strong>, there are many "<strong>unspoken rules</strong>" in Chinese universities:

<p>
<a href="http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timcollard/100015476/did-corruption-in-chinese-universities-cause-the-suicide-of-a-brilliant-young-academic/" title="telegraph.co.uk" rel="nofollow">Did corruption in Chinese universities cause the suicide of a brilliant young academic?</a> [telegraph.co.uk]
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For anyone who wants to come back , please read this and think twice , there are many " unspoken rules " in Chinese universities : Did corruption in Chinese universities cause the suicide of a brilliant young academic ?
[ telegraph.co.uk ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For anyone who wants to come back, please read this and think twice, there are many "unspoken rules" in Chinese universities:


Did corruption in Chinese universities cause the suicide of a brilliant young academic?
[telegraph.co.uk]
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30708272</id>
	<title>Re:I think the worse problem is the other way arou</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263062760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I hear stories about immigrants with degrees getting jobs in the USA, people go ballistic about how they are stealing Americans' jobs and depressing wages<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... When they go back to their home country, people then complain about a brain drain and about how they should make a 'contribution' to the country that educated them</p></div></blockquote><p>I suspect the two complaints are originating from two very different groups of people in the USA.</p><p>Those who go ballistic when immigrants with degrees attain jobs in the USA would likely prefer the immigrants never acquired the education and degree in the first place. Ironically many of these same people do not have a degree or education themselves and also whine about citizens with an education and degree being hired with a larger salary to direct them and they justify their complaints with anecdotal confirmation of their superiority over their educated director.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I hear stories about immigrants with degrees getting jobs in the USA , people go ballistic about how they are stealing Americans ' jobs and depressing wages ... When they go back to their home country , people then complain about a brain drain and about how they should make a 'contribution ' to the country that educated themI suspect the two complaints are originating from two very different groups of people in the USA.Those who go ballistic when immigrants with degrees attain jobs in the USA would likely prefer the immigrants never acquired the education and degree in the first place .
Ironically many of these same people do not have a degree or education themselves and also whine about citizens with an education and degree being hired with a larger salary to direct them and they justify their complaints with anecdotal confirmation of their superiority over their educated director .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hear stories about immigrants with degrees getting jobs in the USA, people go ballistic about how they are stealing Americans' jobs and depressing wages ... When they go back to their home country, people then complain about a brain drain and about how they should make a 'contribution' to the country that educated themI suspect the two complaints are originating from two very different groups of people in the USA.Those who go ballistic when immigrants with degrees attain jobs in the USA would likely prefer the immigrants never acquired the education and degree in the first place.
Ironically many of these same people do not have a degree or education themselves and also whine about citizens with an education and degree being hired with a larger salary to direct them and they justify their complaints with anecdotal confirmation of their superiority over their educated director.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30705904</id>
	<title>USA</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1263032280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>SEND 'EM BACK!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>SEND 'EM BACK !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>SEND 'EM BACK!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_09_0330203.30708072</id>
	<title>It's inevitable</title>
	<author>autophile</author>
	<datestamp>1263060600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere?</p></div></blockquote><p>Well, the US is a major exporter of education. See, for example, Fareed Zakaria's book, The Post-American World. The US graduates the most PhD's in the world, and students from all over the world are fighting to get into the US for higher education. However, once that degree is earned, the paradigm changes: now it's all about what to do post-education. And if the landscape is beginning to look better outside the US, then it's no surprise that people start leaving.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere ? Well , the US is a major exporter of education .
See , for example , Fareed Zakaria 's book , The Post-American World .
The US graduates the most PhD 's in the world , and students from all over the world are fighting to get into the US for higher education .
However , once that degree is earned , the paradigm changes : now it 's all about what to do post-education .
And if the landscape is beginning to look better outside the US , then it 's no surprise that people start leaving .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does it make sense to invest in their training if they will do their major work elsewhere?Well, the US is a major exporter of education.
See, for example, Fareed Zakaria's book, The Post-American World.
The US graduates the most PhD's in the world, and students from all over the world are fighting to get into the US for higher education.
However, once that degree is earned, the paradigm changes: now it's all about what to do post-education.
And if the landscape is beginning to look better outside the US, then it's no surprise that people start leaving.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
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