<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_01_07_0428245</id>
	<title>IT Job Satisfaction Plummets To All-Time Low</title>
	<author>samzenpus</author>
	<datestamp>1262888040000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>cweditor writes <i>"IT <a href="http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9143194/Surveys\_IT\_job\_satisfaction\_plummets\_to\_all\_time\_low">job satisfaction has plummeted to a 10-year low</a>, according to a recent survey.  Another on general job satisfaction rated IT a paltry 45\%. From the article: 'The CEB's latest survey found that the willingness of IT employees to "exert high levels of discretionary effort" &mdash; put in extra hours to solve a problem, make suggestions for improving processes, and generally seek to play a key role in an organization &mdash; has plummeted to its lowest levels since the survey was launched 10 years ago.'"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>cweditor writes " IT job satisfaction has plummeted to a 10-year low , according to a recent survey .
Another on general job satisfaction rated IT a paltry 45 \ % .
From the article : 'The CEB 's latest survey found that the willingness of IT employees to " exert high levels of discretionary effort "    put in extra hours to solve a problem , make suggestions for improving processes , and generally seek to play a key role in an organization    has plummeted to its lowest levels since the survey was launched 10 years ago .
' "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>cweditor writes "IT job satisfaction has plummeted to a 10-year low, according to a recent survey.
Another on general job satisfaction rated IT a paltry 45\%.
From the article: 'The CEB's latest survey found that the willingness of IT employees to "exert high levels of discretionary effort" — put in extra hours to solve a problem, make suggestions for improving processes, and generally seek to play a key role in an organization — has plummeted to its lowest levels since the survey was launched 10 years ago.
'"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30685356</id>
	<title>Re:Of course we're dissatisfied</title>
	<author>Aladrin</author>
	<datestamp>1262891700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I hope you learned a lesson.  In case you didn't:</p><p>Don't work harder than they pay you for.  You won't get credit and you won't get paid extra.</p><p>It's entirely possible that you'd have gotten exactly the same raise even if you had merely done a competent job, instead of doing 2 jobs and nearly killing yourself at work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I hope you learned a lesson .
In case you did n't : Do n't work harder than they pay you for .
You wo n't get credit and you wo n't get paid extra.It 's entirely possible that you 'd have gotten exactly the same raise even if you had merely done a competent job , instead of doing 2 jobs and nearly killing yourself at work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hope you learned a lesson.
In case you didn't:Don't work harder than they pay you for.
You won't get credit and you won't get paid extra.It's entirely possible that you'd have gotten exactly the same raise even if you had merely done a competent job, instead of doing 2 jobs and nearly killing yourself at work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680410</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30690084</id>
	<title>Re:Perhaps...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262875920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My mechanic races a Ferrari in his spare time when he is not gracing me with keeping my Porsche and small fleet of Mercedes Benz's going.  I consider his time as valuable if not more valuable than my own.</p><p>It's idiots like you that have let the greedy jerks in management kill off the romance in the IT world.  We used to have SGI workstations and mainframes until the cheap cheap cheap mantra killed it all to save a few bucks.  Imagine where we would be now technology wise if all the money had not been siphoned off to pay for the $1000 trash cans and gold toilets that the Executives waste money on?</p><p>If this is the direction that Computing is going in the hell with it.  Ill find some other other way to make a living.  Have fun being pushed around by egocentric jerks who treat you like scum.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My mechanic races a Ferrari in his spare time when he is not gracing me with keeping my Porsche and small fleet of Mercedes Benz 's going .
I consider his time as valuable if not more valuable than my own.It 's idiots like you that have let the greedy jerks in management kill off the romance in the IT world .
We used to have SGI workstations and mainframes until the cheap cheap cheap mantra killed it all to save a few bucks .
Imagine where we would be now technology wise if all the money had not been siphoned off to pay for the $ 1000 trash cans and gold toilets that the Executives waste money on ? If this is the direction that Computing is going in the hell with it .
Ill find some other other way to make a living .
Have fun being pushed around by egocentric jerks who treat you like scum .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My mechanic races a Ferrari in his spare time when he is not gracing me with keeping my Porsche and small fleet of Mercedes Benz's going.
I consider his time as valuable if not more valuable than my own.It's idiots like you that have let the greedy jerks in management kill off the romance in the IT world.
We used to have SGI workstations and mainframes until the cheap cheap cheap mantra killed it all to save a few bucks.
Imagine where we would be now technology wise if all the money had not been siphoned off to pay for the $1000 trash cans and gold toilets that the Executives waste money on?If this is the direction that Computing is going in the hell with it.
Ill find some other other way to make a living.
Have fun being pushed around by egocentric jerks who treat you like scum.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681656</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681056</id>
	<title>Re:Not attracting new blood, good suggestions igno</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262870700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're missing the essential point.  Management nowadays is about power.  Managers in general are taught to keep employees in the dark and they are also taught that it is in everyone's best interests to do so.  If you can't reward your employees for going the extra mile, you shouldn't even be contemplating why they don't.  Otherwise, you're just another white man who should GO BACK to your family in suburbia and wait for the other shoe to drop.</p><p>When the next recession happens,(assuming that anyone really thinks we've recovered after our momentary high from taking out loans) there won't be any golden parachutes.  There will only be the robber barons who stuffed their suitcases with every last bit of graft that they could squeeze out of the economy before they set up shop in China.</p><p>I'm still setting the next 20 years out because I can't see a $\%^&amp; reason to get involved, one way or another.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're missing the essential point .
Management nowadays is about power .
Managers in general are taught to keep employees in the dark and they are also taught that it is in everyone 's best interests to do so .
If you ca n't reward your employees for going the extra mile , you should n't even be contemplating why they do n't .
Otherwise , you 're just another white man who should GO BACK to your family in suburbia and wait for the other shoe to drop.When the next recession happens , ( assuming that anyone really thinks we 've recovered after our momentary high from taking out loans ) there wo n't be any golden parachutes .
There will only be the robber barons who stuffed their suitcases with every last bit of graft that they could squeeze out of the economy before they set up shop in China.I 'm still setting the next 20 years out because I ca n't see a $ \ % ^ &amp; reason to get involved , one way or another .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're missing the essential point.
Management nowadays is about power.
Managers in general are taught to keep employees in the dark and they are also taught that it is in everyone's best interests to do so.
If you can't reward your employees for going the extra mile, you shouldn't even be contemplating why they don't.
Otherwise, you're just another white man who should GO BACK to your family in suburbia and wait for the other shoe to drop.When the next recession happens,(assuming that anyone really thinks we've recovered after our momentary high from taking out loans) there won't be any golden parachutes.
There will only be the robber barons who stuffed their suitcases with every last bit of graft that they could squeeze out of the economy before they set up shop in China.I'm still setting the next 20 years out because I can't see a $\%^&amp; reason to get involved, one way or another.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679632</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30686040</id>
	<title>Re:Perhaps...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262894700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Usually it's because the boss prefers to buy himself another car, rather than add another grunt to the team<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Usually it 's because the boss prefers to buy himself another car , rather than add another grunt to the team .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Usually it's because the boss prefers to buy himself another car, rather than add another grunt to the team ...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681656</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681092</id>
	<title>Regulation is what does it for me</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262871240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The main cause of dissatisfaction for me is the regulation, particularly ITIL.</p><p>When I started, you could actually fix things when users reported problems. Simple.</p><p>Now it seems like I have to ask permission to do my job. Every little thing requires approval by a change board and explanation to non-technical managers who can't assess the risk properly because they have no idea of what I'm proposing to do.</p><p>And it's to protect the techies, they tell us! Take a system down and cause chaos and no problem - as long as the paperwork was approved you're covered, no comebacks. Well, I'm sorry, but if I can't be trusted to do simple maintenance work without taking the system down or breaking anything, I don't deserve to be in the job.</p><p>It seems like the regulation is because more and more of the admins are relatively unskilled and therefore need to be closely monitored. Deeply frustrating to those of us who enjoy the technical problem solving but hate the paperwork and other corporate nonsense.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The main cause of dissatisfaction for me is the regulation , particularly ITIL.When I started , you could actually fix things when users reported problems .
Simple.Now it seems like I have to ask permission to do my job .
Every little thing requires approval by a change board and explanation to non-technical managers who ca n't assess the risk properly because they have no idea of what I 'm proposing to do.And it 's to protect the techies , they tell us !
Take a system down and cause chaos and no problem - as long as the paperwork was approved you 're covered , no comebacks .
Well , I 'm sorry , but if I ca n't be trusted to do simple maintenance work without taking the system down or breaking anything , I do n't deserve to be in the job.It seems like the regulation is because more and more of the admins are relatively unskilled and therefore need to be closely monitored .
Deeply frustrating to those of us who enjoy the technical problem solving but hate the paperwork and other corporate nonsense .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The main cause of dissatisfaction for me is the regulation, particularly ITIL.When I started, you could actually fix things when users reported problems.
Simple.Now it seems like I have to ask permission to do my job.
Every little thing requires approval by a change board and explanation to non-technical managers who can't assess the risk properly because they have no idea of what I'm proposing to do.And it's to protect the techies, they tell us!
Take a system down and cause chaos and no problem - as long as the paperwork was approved you're covered, no comebacks.
Well, I'm sorry, but if I can't be trusted to do simple maintenance work without taking the system down or breaking anything, I don't deserve to be in the job.It seems like the regulation is because more and more of the admins are relatively unskilled and therefore need to be closely monitored.
Deeply frustrating to those of us who enjoy the technical problem solving but hate the paperwork and other corporate nonsense.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681360</id>
	<title>Re:Limits</title>
	<author>ubersoldat2k7</author>
	<datestamp>1262873760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The thing I hated the most about IT was doing others' jobs. There wasn't a day on which a user would come asking for help on doing something with Excel, Word or Powerpoint when IMO these are tools of your trade and you should learn how to use them. And I'm not talking about real problems, I'm talking about merging cells or adding sound to a sheet and stupid things like those... and I don't even know how to do those sort of things since I use OpenOffice!</htmltext>
<tokenext>The thing I hated the most about IT was doing others ' jobs .
There was n't a day on which a user would come asking for help on doing something with Excel , Word or Powerpoint when IMO these are tools of your trade and you should learn how to use them .
And I 'm not talking about real problems , I 'm talking about merging cells or adding sound to a sheet and stupid things like those... and I do n't even know how to do those sort of things since I use OpenOffice !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The thing I hated the most about IT was doing others' jobs.
There wasn't a day on which a user would come asking for help on doing something with Excel, Word or Powerpoint when IMO these are tools of your trade and you should learn how to use them.
And I'm not talking about real problems, I'm talking about merging cells or adding sound to a sheet and stupid things like those... and I don't even know how to do those sort of things since I use OpenOffice!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679812</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681452</id>
	<title>Re:Not attracting new blood, good suggestions igno</title>
	<author>Civil\_Disobedient</author>
	<datestamp>1262874360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>There are only so many times an intelligent person will go that extra mile, get rewarded with a proverbial kick in the teeth, before they learn not to bother.</i></p><p>This is the absolute truth.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are only so many times an intelligent person will go that extra mile , get rewarded with a proverbial kick in the teeth , before they learn not to bother.This is the absolute truth .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are only so many times an intelligent person will go that extra mile, get rewarded with a proverbial kick in the teeth, before they learn not to bother.This is the absolute truth.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679632</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30685622</id>
	<title>Re:Of course we're dissatisfied</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262892900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At my previous company, all of us in the SW/Engineering department were quite ticked off to hear about how guys in the Sales department got near-million bonuses for exceeding their targets, selling the stuff we made; so you're right to feel a bit short-changed by a $5k bonus, if you actually did save the company $500k.</p><p>I know salespeoples' salaries are often tied to their numbers, but the disparity is a bit much.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At my previous company , all of us in the SW/Engineering department were quite ticked off to hear about how guys in the Sales department got near-million bonuses for exceeding their targets , selling the stuff we made ; so you 're right to feel a bit short-changed by a $ 5k bonus , if you actually did save the company $ 500k.I know salespeoples ' salaries are often tied to their numbers , but the disparity is a bit much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At my previous company, all of us in the SW/Engineering department were quite ticked off to hear about how guys in the Sales department got near-million bonuses for exceeding their targets, selling the stuff we made; so you're right to feel a bit short-changed by a $5k bonus, if you actually did save the company $500k.I know salespeoples' salaries are often tied to their numbers, but the disparity is a bit much.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680410</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680902</id>
	<title>Of course programmers are IT.</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1262869020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Information Technology"</p><p>What do programmers do? Handle and facilitate the handling of information.</p><p>IT pure and simple.</p><p>But of course they want to declare programming a liberal art, and one day they will demand that all programming languages are based in French natural language.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Information Technology " What do programmers do ?
Handle and facilitate the handling of information.IT pure and simple.But of course they want to declare programming a liberal art , and one day they will demand that all programming languages are based in French natural language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Information Technology"What do programmers do?
Handle and facilitate the handling of information.IT pure and simple.But of course they want to declare programming a liberal art, and one day they will demand that all programming languages are based in French natural language.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679864</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681656</id>
	<title>Re:Perhaps...</title>
	<author>osgeek</author>
	<datestamp>1262875740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Where is this that auto mechanics are living the dream?  Where is it that auto mechanics are allowed to run free like nobel laureates without oversight because they have all the wisdom and chutzpah to get their jobs done?  Television somewhere?</p><p>IT folks are people like any others and their jobs aren't any more difficult than anyone else's in the corporate family.  Don't romanticize their roles with enormously biased analogies involving Lamborghinis and Volkswagens.</p><p>Smart companies will push their IT departments, their Sales departments, their Marketing departments, their Finance departments, etc. as hard as they can.  Their demands should normally be "stretch" goals because they've got competitors who will put them out of business if they take it easy for too long.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Where is this that auto mechanics are living the dream ?
Where is it that auto mechanics are allowed to run free like nobel laureates without oversight because they have all the wisdom and chutzpah to get their jobs done ?
Television somewhere ? IT folks are people like any others and their jobs are n't any more difficult than anyone else 's in the corporate family .
Do n't romanticize their roles with enormously biased analogies involving Lamborghinis and Volkswagens.Smart companies will push their IT departments , their Sales departments , their Marketing departments , their Finance departments , etc .
as hard as they can .
Their demands should normally be " stretch " goals because they 've got competitors who will put them out of business if they take it easy for too long .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where is this that auto mechanics are living the dream?
Where is it that auto mechanics are allowed to run free like nobel laureates without oversight because they have all the wisdom and chutzpah to get their jobs done?
Television somewhere?IT folks are people like any others and their jobs aren't any more difficult than anyone else's in the corporate family.
Don't romanticize their roles with enormously biased analogies involving Lamborghinis and Volkswagens.Smart companies will push their IT departments, their Sales departments, their Marketing departments, their Finance departments, etc.
as hard as they can.
Their demands should normally be "stretch" goals because they've got competitors who will put them out of business if they take it easy for too long.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30684208</id>
	<title>Re:Um... Salary?</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1262887020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Making somebody be on call 24/7 is not illegal. Not paying somebody for when they DO get called in is illegal (for non-exempt employees). Most of our IT folks (except the entry level guys are exempted employees, so they are expected to work as much as it takes for whatever salary they get. Them's the breaks when you work in such a skilled labor category.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Making somebody be on call 24/7 is not illegal .
Not paying somebody for when they DO get called in is illegal ( for non-exempt employees ) .
Most of our IT folks ( except the entry level guys are exempted employees , so they are expected to work as much as it takes for whatever salary they get .
Them 's the breaks when you work in such a skilled labor category .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Making somebody be on call 24/7 is not illegal.
Not paying somebody for when they DO get called in is illegal (for non-exempt employees).
Most of our IT folks (except the entry level guys are exempted employees, so they are expected to work as much as it takes for whatever salary they get.
Them's the breaks when you work in such a skilled labor category.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681762</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30687104</id>
	<title>Re:Perhaps...</title>
	<author>assertation</author>
	<datestamp>1262856720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That is interesting.  Do you have any citations for that claim?  It would be a cool thing to have.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That is interesting .
Do you have any citations for that claim ?
It would be a cool thing to have .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is interesting.
Do you have any citations for that claim?
It would be a cool thing to have.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680906</id>
	<title>Re:When you get down to it, it's pretty monotanous</title>
	<author>drinkypoo</author>
	<datestamp>1262869080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's a bunch of shit, you're doing it wrong. Computers help us do stupid things faster, and if you are permitted to do things right you find a solution to the problem. Maybe you automate it away, or maybe you buy new hardware, or maybe it's just putting in time to reconfigure something, perhaps with a dose of study involved. Computers can help us <em>eliminate</em> drudgery so we can get back to creative work... like replacing you with a very small shell script.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>I was doing something ostensibly interesting for a living, computer animation at an A-list production facility. But in the end it was sitting at a computer in a dark room for at least 10 hours a day.</p></div><p>Some people like to sit in a dark room for at least 10 hours a day. See where I'm going with this?</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Syousef has a good point about shifting priorities as you get older, and that's why IT is largely a young person's job. It's something you do to gain experience, then move up or on to something else.</p></div><p>I'd really like to do IT all my life, or at least all my career. I enjoy helping people (no, really) and I enjoy solving problems. Unfortunately, every time I get comfortable somewhere, the job changes beneath me. I had three managers at Cisco, three at Tivoli (though admittedly I was responsible for getting rid of one of those) and so on.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's a bunch of shit , you 're doing it wrong .
Computers help us do stupid things faster , and if you are permitted to do things right you find a solution to the problem .
Maybe you automate it away , or maybe you buy new hardware , or maybe it 's just putting in time to reconfigure something , perhaps with a dose of study involved .
Computers can help us eliminate drudgery so we can get back to creative work... like replacing you with a very small shell script.I was doing something ostensibly interesting for a living , computer animation at an A-list production facility .
But in the end it was sitting at a computer in a dark room for at least 10 hours a day.Some people like to sit in a dark room for at least 10 hours a day .
See where I 'm going with this ? Syousef has a good point about shifting priorities as you get older , and that 's why IT is largely a young person 's job .
It 's something you do to gain experience , then move up or on to something else.I 'd really like to do IT all my life , or at least all my career .
I enjoy helping people ( no , really ) and I enjoy solving problems .
Unfortunately , every time I get comfortable somewhere , the job changes beneath me .
I had three managers at Cisco , three at Tivoli ( though admittedly I was responsible for getting rid of one of those ) and so on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's a bunch of shit, you're doing it wrong.
Computers help us do stupid things faster, and if you are permitted to do things right you find a solution to the problem.
Maybe you automate it away, or maybe you buy new hardware, or maybe it's just putting in time to reconfigure something, perhaps with a dose of study involved.
Computers can help us eliminate drudgery so we can get back to creative work... like replacing you with a very small shell script.I was doing something ostensibly interesting for a living, computer animation at an A-list production facility.
But in the end it was sitting at a computer in a dark room for at least 10 hours a day.Some people like to sit in a dark room for at least 10 hours a day.
See where I'm going with this?Syousef has a good point about shifting priorities as you get older, and that's why IT is largely a young person's job.
It's something you do to gain experience, then move up or on to something else.I'd really like to do IT all my life, or at least all my career.
I enjoy helping people (no, really) and I enjoy solving problems.
Unfortunately, every time I get comfortable somewhere, the job changes beneath me.
I had three managers at Cisco, three at Tivoli (though admittedly I was responsible for getting rid of one of those) and so on.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679546</id>
	<title>No more working for the man</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262805240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>IT employees in the category of "highly engaged" workers has fallen to 4\%</p></div><p>That's why there is a growing movement toward mastering our own destiny, becoming entrepreneurs and working for ourselves. Putting together a cool app <a href="http://fairsoftware.net/publicProjects" title="fairsoftware.net" rel="nofollow">in your spare time</a> [fairsoftware.net] is way more fun, and it you hit the jackpot, bingo! No more clueless boss!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>IT employees in the category of " highly engaged " workers has fallen to 4 \ % That 's why there is a growing movement toward mastering our own destiny , becoming entrepreneurs and working for ourselves .
Putting together a cool app in your spare time [ fairsoftware.net ] is way more fun , and it you hit the jackpot , bingo !
No more clueless boss !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IT employees in the category of "highly engaged" workers has fallen to 4\%That's why there is a growing movement toward mastering our own destiny, becoming entrepreneurs and working for ourselves.
Putting together a cool app in your spare time [fairsoftware.net] is way more fun, and it you hit the jackpot, bingo!
No more clueless boss!
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681792</id>
	<title>Re:Perhaps...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262876580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is correct, the problem is that wages have stagnated.  My boss looks at me like I'm crazy when I suggest that we should be compensated a reasonable amount for 24/7 coverage.  As far as he, and HR are concerned that is covered in the base salary...which hasn't increased in years.<br>I fully expect major companies to have major server/network issues in the next 4-5 years once all the competent people (and the servers/networks they have already set up) have rotated out of the industry for greener pastures where they can spend time with their kids.  The next 'generation' of IT folks will just copy what the competent people leave behind, not actually knowing why it was set up that way, and then when it breaks....</p><p>Oh, and here are some of my other favorite tactics over the years:  Forced vacation usage, conference calls at 4pm on a Friday announcing everyone is taking a 10\% pay cut, requirement that you be in the office from 9-5 even though you were there from 9-5 at night (you know because if you aren't in your cube, you aren't working).  Each example is from a different big company, so you can't even blame this on one manager or company culture.</p><p>Folks, the Golden Age of working in IT is over, I hope you got your hiring bonuses while you could.<br>And if you're wondering...I'm working on my PhD in another field now.  I will say this for IT though, I met some good people along the way, so it hasn't been all bad.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is correct , the problem is that wages have stagnated .
My boss looks at me like I 'm crazy when I suggest that we should be compensated a reasonable amount for 24/7 coverage .
As far as he , and HR are concerned that is covered in the base salary...which has n't increased in years.I fully expect major companies to have major server/network issues in the next 4-5 years once all the competent people ( and the servers/networks they have already set up ) have rotated out of the industry for greener pastures where they can spend time with their kids .
The next 'generation ' of IT folks will just copy what the competent people leave behind , not actually knowing why it was set up that way , and then when it breaks....Oh , and here are some of my other favorite tactics over the years : Forced vacation usage , conference calls at 4pm on a Friday announcing everyone is taking a 10 \ % pay cut , requirement that you be in the office from 9-5 even though you were there from 9-5 at night ( you know because if you are n't in your cube , you are n't working ) .
Each example is from a different big company , so you ca n't even blame this on one manager or company culture.Folks , the Golden Age of working in IT is over , I hope you got your hiring bonuses while you could.And if you 're wondering...I 'm working on my PhD in another field now .
I will say this for IT though , I met some good people along the way , so it has n't been all bad .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is correct, the problem is that wages have stagnated.
My boss looks at me like I'm crazy when I suggest that we should be compensated a reasonable amount for 24/7 coverage.
As far as he, and HR are concerned that is covered in the base salary...which hasn't increased in years.I fully expect major companies to have major server/network issues in the next 4-5 years once all the competent people (and the servers/networks they have already set up) have rotated out of the industry for greener pastures where they can spend time with their kids.
The next 'generation' of IT folks will just copy what the competent people leave behind, not actually knowing why it was set up that way, and then when it breaks....Oh, and here are some of my other favorite tactics over the years:  Forced vacation usage, conference calls at 4pm on a Friday announcing everyone is taking a 10\% pay cut, requirement that you be in the office from 9-5 even though you were there from 9-5 at night (you know because if you aren't in your cube, you aren't working).
Each example is from a different big company, so you can't even blame this on one manager or company culture.Folks, the Golden Age of working in IT is over, I hope you got your hiring bonuses while you could.And if you're wondering...I'm working on my PhD in another field now.
I will say this for IT though, I met some good people along the way, so it hasn't been all bad.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680000</id>
	<title>Re:More mature IT is just... less exciting</title>
	<author>raddan</author>
	<datestamp>1262854860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>When I first started in IT, building a server was an *ART*.</p></div><p><div class="quote"><p>Today, IT needs to be much more closely integrated with the business.</p></div><p>I'd argue that there's still some excitement (and art) in the latter statement that you make, especially for businesses whose product is information.  Where I work (publishing) we have a lot of very talented and creative people, but they don't know squat about using technology to better do their work.  I can and do build tools for them to take the monotony out of their own jobs.  This requires a lot of thinking, a lot of programming, and it generally makes my job a lot more enjoyable.  Now that a lot of pre-packaged IT tools are better out of the box, I can spend less time dealing with the day-to-day chores of network maintenance, and more time on the fun stuff.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I first started in IT , building a server was an * ART * .Today , IT needs to be much more closely integrated with the business.I 'd argue that there 's still some excitement ( and art ) in the latter statement that you make , especially for businesses whose product is information .
Where I work ( publishing ) we have a lot of very talented and creative people , but they do n't know squat about using technology to better do their work .
I can and do build tools for them to take the monotony out of their own jobs .
This requires a lot of thinking , a lot of programming , and it generally makes my job a lot more enjoyable .
Now that a lot of pre-packaged IT tools are better out of the box , I can spend less time dealing with the day-to-day chores of network maintenance , and more time on the fun stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I first started in IT, building a server was an *ART*.Today, IT needs to be much more closely integrated with the business.I'd argue that there's still some excitement (and art) in the latter statement that you make, especially for businesses whose product is information.
Where I work (publishing) we have a lot of very talented and creative people, but they don't know squat about using technology to better do their work.
I can and do build tools for them to take the monotony out of their own jobs.
This requires a lot of thinking, a lot of programming, and it generally makes my job a lot more enjoyable.
Now that a lot of pre-packaged IT tools are better out of the box, I can spend less time dealing with the day-to-day chores of network maintenance, and more time on the fun stuff.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679722</id>
	<title>Huh, I wonder why?</title>
	<author>Totenglocke</author>
	<datestamp>1262807880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Job satisfaction is at an all time low in the only skilled career where the employees are routinely treated like crap?  Who'd have guessed?!</p><p>That's why I'm planning on changing careers ASAP and am already sending out resumes.  I've only been out of college for a few years, but it's more than enough experience in IT to know that I don't want to do it for the rest of my life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Job satisfaction is at an all time low in the only skilled career where the employees are routinely treated like crap ?
Who 'd have guessed ?
! That 's why I 'm planning on changing careers ASAP and am already sending out resumes .
I 've only been out of college for a few years , but it 's more than enough experience in IT to know that I do n't want to do it for the rest of my life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Job satisfaction is at an all time low in the only skilled career where the employees are routinely treated like crap?
Who'd have guessed?
!That's why I'm planning on changing careers ASAP and am already sending out resumes.
I've only been out of college for a few years, but it's more than enough experience in IT to know that I don't want to do it for the rest of my life.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30682406</id>
	<title>No doubt. Management these days == joke</title>
	<author>Kungpaoshizi</author>
	<datestamp>1262879940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Every company I've been at doing contract work, the managers don't know shit.
And here I am, no degree because I have been living on a pc since the Commodore days, and I'll say something to someone either on the team, but ALWAYS if I say something "technical" to a manager, they say "ok ok, I have no idea what you're talking about"....

Then that same person says "you need to work harder/faster/better etc..", and then they never take advice on how things could be better?!

Ya, might as well call corporations in the US now miniature communist governements.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Every company I 've been at doing contract work , the managers do n't know shit .
And here I am , no degree because I have been living on a pc since the Commodore days , and I 'll say something to someone either on the team , but ALWAYS if I say something " technical " to a manager , they say " ok ok , I have no idea what you 're talking about " ... . Then that same person says " you need to work harder/faster/better etc.. " , and then they never take advice on how things could be better ? !
Ya , might as well call corporations in the US now miniature communist governements .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Every company I've been at doing contract work, the managers don't know shit.
And here I am, no degree because I have been living on a pc since the Commodore days, and I'll say something to someone either on the team, but ALWAYS if I say something "technical" to a manager, they say "ok ok, I have no idea what you're talking about"....

Then that same person says "you need to work harder/faster/better etc..", and then they never take advice on how things could be better?!
Ya, might as well call corporations in the US now miniature communist governements.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30682434</id>
	<title>non-compete and no-hire agreements</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262880060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Non-compete and no-hire agreements in some industries make it hard to continue a career when you're ready to leave a job so people end up trapped in jobs they don't like.  My skills are pretty valuable out on the market but the people I'd work for just can't hire me so I can't quit my job.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Non-compete and no-hire agreements in some industries make it hard to continue a career when you 're ready to leave a job so people end up trapped in jobs they do n't like .
My skills are pretty valuable out on the market but the people I 'd work for just ca n't hire me so I ca n't quit my job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Non-compete and no-hire agreements in some industries make it hard to continue a career when you're ready to leave a job so people end up trapped in jobs they don't like.
My skills are pretty valuable out on the market but the people I'd work for just can't hire me so I can't quit my job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679676</id>
	<title>Attracting too much new blood</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262807220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe it's down to the number of "commodity" IT employees in the game these days.  People who are in it for a job and nothing else.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe it 's down to the number of " commodity " IT employees in the game these days .
People who are in it for a job and nothing else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe it's down to the number of "commodity" IT employees in the game these days.
People who are in it for a job and nothing else.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680276</id>
	<title>Re:No more working for the man</title>
	<author>mcvos</author>
	<datestamp>1262859780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>IT is used in a multitude of different ways. And then there's ICT, which is probably not quite the same, but I have no idea what the difference really is. Lots of people consider me to be an ITer, despite the fact that I hate hardware, networks and other infrastructure. I build websites and other software. But there's no quick acronym for that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>IT is used in a multitude of different ways .
And then there 's ICT , which is probably not quite the same , but I have no idea what the difference really is .
Lots of people consider me to be an ITer , despite the fact that I hate hardware , networks and other infrastructure .
I build websites and other software .
But there 's no quick acronym for that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IT is used in a multitude of different ways.
And then there's ICT, which is probably not quite the same, but I have no idea what the difference really is.
Lots of people consider me to be an ITer, despite the fact that I hate hardware, networks and other infrastructure.
I build websites and other software.
But there's no quick acronym for that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679752</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680634</id>
	<title>Worst and best job ever</title>
	<author>YourExperiment</author>
	<datestamp>1262865060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In other news, the Wall Street Journal finds that <a href="http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/st\_BESTJOBS2010\_20100105.html" title="wsj.com">software engineer is very nearly the best job ever</a> [wsj.com].</p><p>In yet further news, these kinds of surveys are utterly worthless drivel foisted upon as as supposed 'news', and the less publicity we give them the better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In other news , the Wall Street Journal finds that software engineer is very nearly the best job ever [ wsj.com ] .In yet further news , these kinds of surveys are utterly worthless drivel foisted upon as as supposed 'news ' , and the less publicity we give them the better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In other news, the Wall Street Journal finds that software engineer is very nearly the best job ever [wsj.com].In yet further news, these kinds of surveys are utterly worthless drivel foisted upon as as supposed 'news', and the less publicity we give them the better.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30683862</id>
	<title>Re:Not attracting new blood, good suggestions igno</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262885760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>So a lot of the time when a techie goes the extra mile and comes up with a good solution it is not implemented, or worse they are chastised for wasting their time on it. Again this is even prevalent in the currently depressed economy where decreasing costs and expenses is more important than new innovative ideas in the eyes of many business people. There are only so many times an intelligent person will go that extra mile, get rewarded with a proverbial kick in the teeth, before they learn not to bother.</p></div><p>Or worse, the extra mile becomes the expected norm.</p><p>I remember working a lot of long hours (70-80 every week for months on end) to get projects done on time. The marketing people kept on making shorter and shorter time-lines with clients. We were getting projects finished in 3-4 weeks that should have taken 2-3 months. When we were called into a meeting on Tuesday afternoon to explain the new project that was due at 4PM the following Friday (3 days later), the 5 IT people looked at each other and said no way could we get this done. We were told no excuses, the contract was signed. Our getting projects done in totally unreasonable about of time came back to bite us.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So a lot of the time when a techie goes the extra mile and comes up with a good solution it is not implemented , or worse they are chastised for wasting their time on it .
Again this is even prevalent in the currently depressed economy where decreasing costs and expenses is more important than new innovative ideas in the eyes of many business people .
There are only so many times an intelligent person will go that extra mile , get rewarded with a proverbial kick in the teeth , before they learn not to bother.Or worse , the extra mile becomes the expected norm.I remember working a lot of long hours ( 70-80 every week for months on end ) to get projects done on time .
The marketing people kept on making shorter and shorter time-lines with clients .
We were getting projects finished in 3-4 weeks that should have taken 2-3 months .
When we were called into a meeting on Tuesday afternoon to explain the new project that was due at 4PM the following Friday ( 3 days later ) , the 5 IT people looked at each other and said no way could we get this done .
We were told no excuses , the contract was signed .
Our getting projects done in totally unreasonable about of time came back to bite us .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So a lot of the time when a techie goes the extra mile and comes up with a good solution it is not implemented, or worse they are chastised for wasting their time on it.
Again this is even prevalent in the currently depressed economy where decreasing costs and expenses is more important than new innovative ideas in the eyes of many business people.
There are only so many times an intelligent person will go that extra mile, get rewarded with a proverbial kick in the teeth, before they learn not to bother.Or worse, the extra mile becomes the expected norm.I remember working a lot of long hours (70-80 every week for months on end) to get projects done on time.
The marketing people kept on making shorter and shorter time-lines with clients.
We were getting projects finished in 3-4 weeks that should have taken 2-3 months.
When we were called into a meeting on Tuesday afternoon to explain the new project that was due at 4PM the following Friday (3 days later), the 5 IT people looked at each other and said no way could we get this done.
We were told no excuses, the contract was signed.
Our getting projects done in totally unreasonable about of time came back to bite us.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679632</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680560</id>
	<title>Re:No more working for the man</title>
	<author>Jane Q. Public</author>
	<datestamp>1262864100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Which just illustrates the problem: companies often do not even know the difference between IT and development. How can they be expected to know details even finer than that? Yet, if they don't, they have no idea of the real value of their computer people (IT <b>or</b> development).
<br> <br>
I sometimes feel that other poster's idea is a good one: have IT go on strike for a few days, and find out just what happens to the company.
<br> <br>
Now I think about it, I think it would be great to have a national "IT" holiday. 4 straight business days, about mid-summer. I bet that would go a long way toward gaining some appreciation.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Which just illustrates the problem : companies often do not even know the difference between IT and development .
How can they be expected to know details even finer than that ?
Yet , if they do n't , they have no idea of the real value of their computer people ( IT or development ) .
I sometimes feel that other poster 's idea is a good one : have IT go on strike for a few days , and find out just what happens to the company .
Now I think about it , I think it would be great to have a national " IT " holiday .
4 straight business days , about mid-summer .
I bet that would go a long way toward gaining some appreciation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Which just illustrates the problem: companies often do not even know the difference between IT and development.
How can they be expected to know details even finer than that?
Yet, if they don't, they have no idea of the real value of their computer people (IT or development).
I sometimes feel that other poster's idea is a good one: have IT go on strike for a few days, and find out just what happens to the company.
Now I think about it, I think it would be great to have a national "IT" holiday.
4 straight business days, about mid-summer.
I bet that would go a long way toward gaining some appreciation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680276</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30689768</id>
	<title>Re:Of course we're dissatisfied</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262872500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> <i>"They see it as a problem that IT employees are less willing to work long hours for free, but I take this to be a very good sign. It's high time that IT workers stand up for themselves."</i></p></div> </blockquote><p>And management, rather than listen to the IT staff and increase salaries -- or at least pay some bonuses -- to compensate for the weekend work and extra weekday overtime needed to get things done since the last round of payoffs, will just email a page of talking points to the company's lobbyist to push Congress for more visas to allow more cheap labor to come into the country. (Sorry for the pessimism.)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" They see it as a problem that IT employees are less willing to work long hours for free , but I take this to be a very good sign .
It 's high time that IT workers stand up for themselves .
" And management , rather than listen to the IT staff and increase salaries -- or at least pay some bonuses -- to compensate for the weekend work and extra weekday overtime needed to get things done since the last round of payoffs , will just email a page of talking points to the company 's lobbyist to push Congress for more visas to allow more cheap labor to come into the country .
( Sorry for the pessimism .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext> "They see it as a problem that IT employees are less willing to work long hours for free, but I take this to be a very good sign.
It's high time that IT workers stand up for themselves.
" And management, rather than listen to the IT staff and increase salaries -- or at least pay some bonuses -- to compensate for the weekend work and extra weekday overtime needed to get things done since the last round of payoffs, will just email a page of talking points to the company's lobbyist to push Congress for more visas to allow more cheap labor to come into the country.
(Sorry for the pessimism.
)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679956</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30690686</id>
	<title>Re:Um... Salary?</title>
	<author>Eli Gottlieb</author>
	<datestamp>1262883120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why are there exempted categories of salaried employees who can be required to work overtime without compensation?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why are there exempted categories of salaried employees who can be required to work overtime without compensation ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why are there exempted categories of salaried employees who can be required to work overtime without compensation?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30684208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681068</id>
	<title>Re:Of course programmers are IT.</title>
	<author>Jane Q. Public</author>
	<datestamp>1262870880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you want to talk about "official", even the IRS puts them in different job categories.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you want to talk about " official " , even the IRS puts them in different job categories .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you want to talk about "official", even the IRS puts them in different job categories.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680902</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30684566</id>
	<title>Re:IT field avoidance should be a no-brainer</title>
	<author>happy\_place</author>
	<datestamp>1262888460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>the further from original research and development a technology becomes, the more likely it is to be opened up to everyone, and by everyone, we mean those able to learn the tech but receive a lower salary. Further, as tools mature, and become more available--especially if there's a free one out there that's easy to use, and readily available, then more poeple can learn that skill on their own. Many of the IT technologies that don't pay well now, are not due to corruption, but simply due to the fact that they've become commonplace skills, or what was once something experts did, now is taught as an entry level skill to undergrads that don't demand as much pay. (Consider how hard it used to be to make a webpage, but now it's not nearly so) Even when an industry suffers from employment migration in the form of fewer grads, it may stimulate demand for that position, but only until someone creates a tool that replaces your job. Because managers would much rather manage tools than people (and often they treat people like a tool.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;). Anyhow my point is that it's not necessarily as doom and gloom conspiratorial as all that. Instead it's a process of industry maturation. To make money, you must be in high demand, and you should do something that cannot easily be replaced by a tool. Cuz management loves their tools. If you want to always be in high demand, choose a field that's hard. Therein is a secret to success... because hard things are less likely to lose their demand--at least not until a technology makes the hard thing easy.</htmltext>
<tokenext>the further from original research and development a technology becomes , the more likely it is to be opened up to everyone , and by everyone , we mean those able to learn the tech but receive a lower salary .
Further , as tools mature , and become more available--especially if there 's a free one out there that 's easy to use , and readily available , then more poeple can learn that skill on their own .
Many of the IT technologies that do n't pay well now , are not due to corruption , but simply due to the fact that they 've become commonplace skills , or what was once something experts did , now is taught as an entry level skill to undergrads that do n't demand as much pay .
( Consider how hard it used to be to make a webpage , but now it 's not nearly so ) Even when an industry suffers from employment migration in the form of fewer grads , it may stimulate demand for that position , but only until someone creates a tool that replaces your job .
Because managers would much rather manage tools than people ( and often they treat people like a tool .
; ) . Anyhow my point is that it 's not necessarily as doom and gloom conspiratorial as all that .
Instead it 's a process of industry maturation .
To make money , you must be in high demand , and you should do something that can not easily be replaced by a tool .
Cuz management loves their tools .
If you want to always be in high demand , choose a field that 's hard .
Therein is a secret to success... because hard things are less likely to lose their demand--at least not until a technology makes the hard thing easy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the further from original research and development a technology becomes, the more likely it is to be opened up to everyone, and by everyone, we mean those able to learn the tech but receive a lower salary.
Further, as tools mature, and become more available--especially if there's a free one out there that's easy to use, and readily available, then more poeple can learn that skill on their own.
Many of the IT technologies that don't pay well now, are not due to corruption, but simply due to the fact that they've become commonplace skills, or what was once something experts did, now is taught as an entry level skill to undergrads that don't demand as much pay.
(Consider how hard it used to be to make a webpage, but now it's not nearly so) Even when an industry suffers from employment migration in the form of fewer grads, it may stimulate demand for that position, but only until someone creates a tool that replaces your job.
Because managers would much rather manage tools than people (and often they treat people like a tool.
;). Anyhow my point is that it's not necessarily as doom and gloom conspiratorial as all that.
Instead it's a process of industry maturation.
To make money, you must be in high demand, and you should do something that cannot easily be replaced by a tool.
Cuz management loves their tools.
If you want to always be in high demand, choose a field that's hard.
Therein is a secret to success... because hard things are less likely to lose their demand--at least not until a technology makes the hard thing easy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681612</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679632</id>
	<title>Not attracting new blood, good suggestions ignored</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262806440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As you get older, your priorities shift. Putting in extra hours is something you do because you have to do it in order to do your job well, not because you are enthusiastic. You have other demands on your time, and other responsibilities such as family. So the fact that the IT boom is long gone, job security is low due to outsourcing, and respect for the industries that pay most is at an all time low means you're not attracting as much new blood.</p><p>There is also a (somewhat well earned by some, unfortunately) pervasive view that IT staff are propeller heads with no business sense or social skills. Most work with absolutes that are either right or wrong that are difficult to describe to the IT layperson (ie most business customers). So a lot of the time when a techie goes the extra mile and comes up with a good solution it is not implemented, or worse they are chastised for wasting their time on it. Again this is even prevalent in the currently depressed economy where decreasing costs and expenses is more important than new innovative ideas in the eyes of many business people. There are only so many times an intelligent person will go that extra mile, get rewarded with a proverbial kick in the teeth, before they learn not to bother.</p><p>If you want innovation, people doing crazy hours and going the extra mile etc, I think we'll need another tech boom - one that doesn't revolve around outsourcing.</p><p>The film "Office Space" is so well known around here because it can be a very accurate picture of the life of a programmer in many companies. Complete with bureaucratic paperwork and outsourcing of jobs. A case of "it's funny because it's true".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As you get older , your priorities shift .
Putting in extra hours is something you do because you have to do it in order to do your job well , not because you are enthusiastic .
You have other demands on your time , and other responsibilities such as family .
So the fact that the IT boom is long gone , job security is low due to outsourcing , and respect for the industries that pay most is at an all time low means you 're not attracting as much new blood.There is also a ( somewhat well earned by some , unfortunately ) pervasive view that IT staff are propeller heads with no business sense or social skills .
Most work with absolutes that are either right or wrong that are difficult to describe to the IT layperson ( ie most business customers ) .
So a lot of the time when a techie goes the extra mile and comes up with a good solution it is not implemented , or worse they are chastised for wasting their time on it .
Again this is even prevalent in the currently depressed economy where decreasing costs and expenses is more important than new innovative ideas in the eyes of many business people .
There are only so many times an intelligent person will go that extra mile , get rewarded with a proverbial kick in the teeth , before they learn not to bother.If you want innovation , people doing crazy hours and going the extra mile etc , I think we 'll need another tech boom - one that does n't revolve around outsourcing.The film " Office Space " is so well known around here because it can be a very accurate picture of the life of a programmer in many companies .
Complete with bureaucratic paperwork and outsourcing of jobs .
A case of " it 's funny because it 's true " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As you get older, your priorities shift.
Putting in extra hours is something you do because you have to do it in order to do your job well, not because you are enthusiastic.
You have other demands on your time, and other responsibilities such as family.
So the fact that the IT boom is long gone, job security is low due to outsourcing, and respect for the industries that pay most is at an all time low means you're not attracting as much new blood.There is also a (somewhat well earned by some, unfortunately) pervasive view that IT staff are propeller heads with no business sense or social skills.
Most work with absolutes that are either right or wrong that are difficult to describe to the IT layperson (ie most business customers).
So a lot of the time when a techie goes the extra mile and comes up with a good solution it is not implemented, or worse they are chastised for wasting their time on it.
Again this is even prevalent in the currently depressed economy where decreasing costs and expenses is more important than new innovative ideas in the eyes of many business people.
There are only so many times an intelligent person will go that extra mile, get rewarded with a proverbial kick in the teeth, before they learn not to bother.If you want innovation, people doing crazy hours and going the extra mile etc, I think we'll need another tech boom - one that doesn't revolve around outsourcing.The film "Office Space" is so well known around here because it can be a very accurate picture of the life of a programmer in many companies.
Complete with bureaucratic paperwork and outsourcing of jobs.
A case of "it's funny because it's true".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680712</id>
	<title>Re:Of course we're dissatisfied</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262866620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; It is really frustrating to me to see so many workers in this field willing to give up their lives for a job.</p><p>May be they enjoy what they are doing. May be they go to work to have fun. Some of us are like that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; It is really frustrating to me to see so many workers in this field willing to give up their lives for a job.May be they enjoy what they are doing .
May be they go to work to have fun .
Some of us are like that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; It is really frustrating to me to see so many workers in this field willing to give up their lives for a job.May be they enjoy what they are doing.
May be they go to work to have fun.
Some of us are like that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679956</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680982</id>
	<title>Re:Perhaps...</title>
	<author>machine321</author>
	<datestamp>1262870100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Right now we go after the workers. That does not help.</p></div><p>Sure it does, it decreases the available pool of workers.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Right now we go after the workers .
That does not help.Sure it does , it decreases the available pool of workers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Right now we go after the workers.
That does not help.Sure it does, it decreases the available pool of workers.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680352</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30684132</id>
	<title>Re:Um... Salary?</title>
	<author>scamper\_22</author>
	<datestamp>1262886720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ummm... No.</p><p>IT workers, and I'll throw in software developers as well, abuse THEMSELVES.<br>In my years, I've met only 3 engineers with backbone.  They're all still gainfully employed.<br>Ever heard of saying 'No'... give it a try.<br>I know I have.  It's not just about working more.  It is about stupid policies.  Just say no.  Yet, I'm still here working away.</p><p>You have to realize one simple thing.  Everyone wants to get the most.  Your manager, and his manager, and his director... all want to get the most while paying the least.  That's it.  The fact that most IT people and engineers are sadists is to their benefit.  We take some perverse pleasure in working hard for someone else.  We take our pleasure in being 'smarter' than someone else.</p><p>Wake up.  Grow a pair.  Treat yourself like a professional and maybe you'll get treated like one in return.<br>Keep being a technology loving nerd sadist... and be treated like one.</p><p>Don't get me wrong, I fall into the technology loving trap as well.  When work interests me, I'll put in the extra hours.  Yet, 9-5 is my domain.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ummm... No.IT workers , and I 'll throw in software developers as well , abuse THEMSELVES.In my years , I 've met only 3 engineers with backbone .
They 're all still gainfully employed.Ever heard of saying 'No'... give it a try.I know I have .
It 's not just about working more .
It is about stupid policies .
Just say no .
Yet , I 'm still here working away.You have to realize one simple thing .
Everyone wants to get the most .
Your manager , and his manager , and his director... all want to get the most while paying the least .
That 's it .
The fact that most IT people and engineers are sadists is to their benefit .
We take some perverse pleasure in working hard for someone else .
We take our pleasure in being 'smarter ' than someone else.Wake up .
Grow a pair .
Treat yourself like a professional and maybe you 'll get treated like one in return.Keep being a technology loving nerd sadist... and be treated like one.Do n't get me wrong , I fall into the technology loving trap as well .
When work interests me , I 'll put in the extra hours .
Yet , 9-5 is my domain .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ummm... No.IT workers, and I'll throw in software developers as well, abuse THEMSELVES.In my years, I've met only 3 engineers with backbone.
They're all still gainfully employed.Ever heard of saying 'No'... give it a try.I know I have.
It's not just about working more.
It is about stupid policies.
Just say no.
Yet, I'm still here working away.You have to realize one simple thing.
Everyone wants to get the most.
Your manager, and his manager, and his director... all want to get the most while paying the least.
That's it.
The fact that most IT people and engineers are sadists is to their benefit.
We take some perverse pleasure in working hard for someone else.
We take our pleasure in being 'smarter' than someone else.Wake up.
Grow a pair.
Treat yourself like a professional and maybe you'll get treated like one in return.Keep being a technology loving nerd sadist... and be treated like one.Don't get me wrong, I fall into the technology loving trap as well.
When work interests me, I'll put in the extra hours.
Yet, 9-5 is my domain.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681762</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681288</id>
	<title>Let me guess why</title>
	<author>assertation</author>
	<datestamp>1262873280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Let me guess why</p><p>1. Bad economy, fear of job loss</p><p>2. Not getting the work that they were hired for.  This bait and switch is at its worst with<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; programming.  Advertise for developers, hire developers, do not give them development work<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and watch the poor attitude grow ( or the worker leave ).</p><p>3. People who don't know better forcing stupid technical decisions on technical people<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; who do know better AND without hearing AS WELL AS respecting their professional opinion.</p><p>4. Not getting rewards for extra effort.  Doesn't even have to be money, just a sense<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; that someone is interested in what you did or at least *appreciates* it beyond a<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cold "thank you".</p><p>5. Knowing that you are not valued, that the moment they can outsource you with someone<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cheaper you will be replaced.   Why value a company beyond them being a pay check if<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; they don't value you beyond being a cheap enough part in a machine?</p><p>6. As per the other day on slashdot, penny pinching on minor perks</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Let me guess why1 .
Bad economy , fear of job loss2 .
Not getting the work that they were hired for .
This bait and switch is at its worst with       programming .
Advertise for developers , hire developers , do not give them development work       and watch the poor attitude grow ( or the worker leave ) .3 .
People who do n't know better forcing stupid technical decisions on technical people       who do know better AND without hearing AS WELL AS respecting their professional opinion.4 .
Not getting rewards for extra effort .
Does n't even have to be money , just a sense       that someone is interested in what you did or at least * appreciates * it beyond a       cold " thank you " .5 .
Knowing that you are not valued , that the moment they can outsource you with someone       cheaper you will be replaced .
Why value a company beyond them being a pay check if       they do n't value you beyond being a cheap enough part in a machine ? 6 .
As per the other day on slashdot , penny pinching on minor perks</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let me guess why1.
Bad economy, fear of job loss2.
Not getting the work that they were hired for.
This bait and switch is at its worst with
      programming.
Advertise for developers, hire developers, do not give them development work
      and watch the poor attitude grow ( or the worker leave ).3.
People who don't know better forcing stupid technical decisions on technical people
      who do know better AND without hearing AS WELL AS respecting their professional opinion.4.
Not getting rewards for extra effort.
Doesn't even have to be money, just a sense
      that someone is interested in what you did or at least *appreciates* it beyond a
      cold "thank you".5.
Knowing that you are not valued, that the moment they can outsource you with someone
      cheaper you will be replaced.
Why value a company beyond them being a pay check if
      they don't value you beyond being a cheap enough part in a machine?6.
As per the other day on slashdot, penny pinching on minor perks</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679936</id>
	<title>Re:What...</title>
	<author>phissur</author>
	<datestamp>1262896920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>It is if you like getting paid in mod points.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is if you like getting paid in mod points .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is if you like getting paid in mod points.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679644</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30695440</id>
	<title>Solution to loss of "discretionary effort"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262970000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My company found that making 50 hour weeks mandatory assisted in replacing all those lost hours...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My company found that making 50 hour weeks mandatory assisted in replacing all those lost hours.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My company found that making 50 hour weeks mandatory assisted in replacing all those lost hours...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681986</id>
	<title>Pierre B&#233;arn got it right his 1951 poem</title>
	<author>AHuxley</author>
	<datestamp>1262877780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Metro, work, bistro, cigs, sleep, zero"<br> <br>
Lets web 2.0 it for today:<br>
Rush in code monkey punch your number<br>
Thus to earn the salary<br>
Of a dreary utilitarian day<br>
GM, Microsoft, Burger King, Altria, Lunesta, zero<br>
<br>
On weekends you get to tinker with win7, vista and xp up and down your family tree.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Metro , work , bistro , cigs , sleep , zero " Lets web 2.0 it for today : Rush in code monkey punch your number Thus to earn the salary Of a dreary utilitarian day GM , Microsoft , Burger King , Altria , Lunesta , zero On weekends you get to tinker with win7 , vista and xp up and down your family tree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Metro, work, bistro, cigs, sleep, zero" 
Lets web 2.0 it for today:
Rush in code monkey punch your number
Thus to earn the salary
Of a dreary utilitarian day
GM, Microsoft, Burger King, Altria, Lunesta, zero

On weekends you get to tinker with win7, vista and xp up and down your family tree.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679796</id>
	<title>lazy coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262895120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was searching for a job in IT because I didn't want to work an outside job in Austin's blaring summer heat.  I'm not lazy and I come from an Outside tech background working in cramped quarters.  I told my wife that with experience under my belt i could work from home and so on blah blah blah.  Wow, come to find out folks are smart to say "Hell No!", when their company IT dept offers them a shiny new Laptop(leash)  If any one is thinking of going into IT, do a priorities check, consult a proctologist and have your head removed from your Ass, i slowly eased my own cranium out.  Unfortunately for some it's too late and they can't see past the shit to realize their "IT" lifestyle is full of crap.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was searching for a job in IT because I did n't want to work an outside job in Austin 's blaring summer heat .
I 'm not lazy and I come from an Outside tech background working in cramped quarters .
I told my wife that with experience under my belt i could work from home and so on blah blah blah .
Wow , come to find out folks are smart to say " Hell No !
" , when their company IT dept offers them a shiny new Laptop ( leash ) If any one is thinking of going into IT , do a priorities check , consult a proctologist and have your head removed from your Ass , i slowly eased my own cranium out .
Unfortunately for some it 's too late and they ca n't see past the shit to realize their " IT " lifestyle is full of crap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was searching for a job in IT because I didn't want to work an outside job in Austin's blaring summer heat.
I'm not lazy and I come from an Outside tech background working in cramped quarters.
I told my wife that with experience under my belt i could work from home and so on blah blah blah.
Wow, come to find out folks are smart to say "Hell No!
", when their company IT dept offers them a shiny new Laptop(leash)  If any one is thinking of going into IT, do a priorities check, consult a proctologist and have your head removed from your Ass, i slowly eased my own cranium out.
Unfortunately for some it's too late and they can't see past the shit to realize their "IT" lifestyle is full of crap.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30682516</id>
	<title>This isn't limited to IT</title>
	<author>IANAAC</author>
	<datestamp>1262880420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> <i>
There are limits. Even the happiest, most optimistic IT pro gets weary of dealing with morons, asshats, and people whose sense of entitlement far exceeds their actual worth to the organization.</i></p></div> </blockquote><p>
This isn't limited top the IT profession.  It happens in any service-oriented job (and for that matter, in non-service jobs - how many times have we thought of our boss as an asshat?).
</p><p>
You do realize that IT is (rightly) considered a service, no?
</p><p>
I no longer work in the IT field, but still in a service provider role (translator).  Hell, I come across "asshats" all the time.  I generally find that if I take the time to educate them on what the process exactly is, they stop being such asshats.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are limits .
Even the happiest , most optimistic IT pro gets weary of dealing with morons , asshats , and people whose sense of entitlement far exceeds their actual worth to the organization .
This is n't limited top the IT profession .
It happens in any service-oriented job ( and for that matter , in non-service jobs - how many times have we thought of our boss as an asshat ? ) .
You do realize that IT is ( rightly ) considered a service , no ?
I no longer work in the IT field , but still in a service provider role ( translator ) .
Hell , I come across " asshats " all the time .
I generally find that if I take the time to educate them on what the process exactly is , they stop being such asshats .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> 
There are limits.
Even the happiest, most optimistic IT pro gets weary of dealing with morons, asshats, and people whose sense of entitlement far exceeds their actual worth to the organization.
This isn't limited top the IT profession.
It happens in any service-oriented job (and for that matter, in non-service jobs - how many times have we thought of our boss as an asshat?).
You do realize that IT is (rightly) considered a service, no?
I no longer work in the IT field, but still in a service provider role (translator).
Hell, I come across "asshats" all the time.
I generally find that if I take the time to educate them on what the process exactly is, they stop being such asshats.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679812</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680306</id>
	<title>Re:More mature IT is just... less exciting</title>
	<author>Aceticon</author>
	<datestamp>1262860380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think we need to split what is meant by "IT" here into two streams:<br>- Systems administration, Database administration, Network administration and all kinds of systems and services administration tasks.<br>- Software development (and by this I also mean software design and architecture).</p><p>What you say applies to the first but not that much to the later: there are still a lot of exciting things going on in the Software Development world, although not quite as much as during the Internet boom.</p><p>Software Development is still far from a proper Engineering discipline (standardized and predictable) and there's plenty of evolution going on in there everyday.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think we need to split what is meant by " IT " here into two streams : - Systems administration , Database administration , Network administration and all kinds of systems and services administration tasks.- Software development ( and by this I also mean software design and architecture ) .What you say applies to the first but not that much to the later : there are still a lot of exciting things going on in the Software Development world , although not quite as much as during the Internet boom.Software Development is still far from a proper Engineering discipline ( standardized and predictable ) and there 's plenty of evolution going on in there everyday .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think we need to split what is meant by "IT" here into two streams:- Systems administration, Database administration, Network administration and all kinds of systems and services administration tasks.- Software development (and by this I also mean software design and architecture).What you say applies to the first but not that much to the later: there are still a lot of exciting things going on in the Software Development world, although not quite as much as during the Internet boom.Software Development is still far from a proper Engineering discipline (standardized and predictable) and there's plenty of evolution going on in there everyday.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680558</id>
	<title>Re:Huh, I wonder why?</title>
	<author>dbIII</author>
	<datestamp>1262863980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That is a good point, it is acceptable for anyone in an organisation to insult and bully IT workers over utterly trivial shit at any time.  When half the network was down because some idiot decided to get a ladder and take a patch cable I had people following me around hassling me to get them new software.  You either have to try to calm them down, waste a lot of time and develop a thick skin or tell their management to let you do your job.<br>For some reason people assume the job extends to plumbing, locksmithing, carpentry and stealing work property for their home use.  It' very tempting to just go home at 5 instead of doing the work that was put on hold because you were assembling office desks of moving boxes.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That is a good point , it is acceptable for anyone in an organisation to insult and bully IT workers over utterly trivial shit at any time .
When half the network was down because some idiot decided to get a ladder and take a patch cable I had people following me around hassling me to get them new software .
You either have to try to calm them down , waste a lot of time and develop a thick skin or tell their management to let you do your job.For some reason people assume the job extends to plumbing , locksmithing , carpentry and stealing work property for their home use .
It ' very tempting to just go home at 5 instead of doing the work that was put on hold because you were assembling office desks of moving boxes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is a good point, it is acceptable for anyone in an organisation to insult and bully IT workers over utterly trivial shit at any time.
When half the network was down because some idiot decided to get a ladder and take a patch cable I had people following me around hassling me to get them new software.
You either have to try to calm them down, waste a lot of time and develop a thick skin or tell their management to let you do your job.For some reason people assume the job extends to plumbing, locksmithing, carpentry and stealing work property for their home use.
It' very tempting to just go home at 5 instead of doing the work that was put on hold because you were assembling office desks of moving boxes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30683684</id>
	<title>Management Behavior the Core Issue.</title>
	<author>buellisti</author>
	<datestamp>1262885040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Tis truly difficult to be enthusiastic, to be willing to work extra hours, and to frankly give a damn about your work, when you've been told no raises and no bonuses because the economy went south.  Especially when the very same management receives their raises and their bonuses on schedule.</htmltext>
<tokenext>T is truly difficult to be enthusiastic , to be willing to work extra hours , and to frankly give a damn about your work , when you 've been told no raises and no bonuses because the economy went south .
Especially when the very same management receives their raises and their bonuses on schedule .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Tis truly difficult to be enthusiastic, to be willing to work extra hours, and to frankly give a damn about your work, when you've been told no raises and no bonuses because the economy went south.
Especially when the very same management receives their raises and their bonuses on schedule.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30716236</id>
	<title>Re:Perhaps...</title>
	<author>twebb72</author>
	<datestamp>1263155820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Spoken like a true middle manager.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Spoken like a true middle manager .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Spoken like a true middle manager.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681656</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30682820</id>
	<title>When half your staff has been fired..</title>
	<author>ImNotAtWork</author>
	<datestamp>1262881860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>and your being asked to take on additional projects/responsibilities so that the national average of productivity can go up as an indicator of the economy... how ecstatic would you be?

~Thankfully this is not the situation at my institution but I can certainly relate.</htmltext>
<tokenext>and your being asked to take on additional projects/responsibilities so that the national average of productivity can go up as an indicator of the economy... how ecstatic would you be ?
~ Thankfully this is not the situation at my institution but I can certainly relate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and your being asked to take on additional projects/responsibilities so that the national average of productivity can go up as an indicator of the economy... how ecstatic would you be?
~Thankfully this is not the situation at my institution but I can certainly relate.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681394</id>
	<title>Re:No more working for the man</title>
	<author>Hitto</author>
	<datestamp>1262873940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When my last job began encompassing resonsibility towards even the lowly fax and TELEX machines which were older than me, "IT" became "I- fucking qui-T".<br>You *will* make more money if you work on your own than for a boss.<br>But you *will* need to go through the initiation phases first!</p><p>Now, please, could you come and help us change the paper in the printer?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When my last job began encompassing resonsibility towards even the lowly fax and TELEX machines which were older than me , " IT " became " I- fucking qui-T " .You * will * make more money if you work on your own than for a boss.But you * will * need to go through the initiation phases first ! Now , please , could you come and help us change the paper in the printer ?
: D</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When my last job began encompassing resonsibility towards even the lowly fax and TELEX machines which were older than me, "IT" became "I- fucking qui-T".You *will* make more money if you work on your own than for a boss.But you *will* need to go through the initiation phases first!Now, please, could you come and help us change the paper in the printer?
:D</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680628</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30686232</id>
	<title>Re:Of course we're dissatisfied</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262895780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>  i JUST got handed a letter stating i was getting a raise. $5,000.</p></div><p>A similar thing just happened to me this summer. I had been working for three years without a vacation, frequently working 12+ day work weeks, never getting a raise or a bonus, doing the work of two or three people, etc. It was total hell and those three years probably did some serious stress damage to my health. Eventually I told some coworkers that I was actively searching for any other job to get out of there. Anything to get out. I was willing to take a job as a dishwasher to get out of there. Word got out to the management. I got a $4,800 raise. As far as I am concerned that is way to little way too late. </p><p>I quit and got a job as an apprentice electrician with an electrical subcontractor. I only work 8 hours a day, five days a week. And within 4 years my salary will be up to what it was when I quit IT.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>i JUST got handed a letter stating i was getting a raise .
$ 5,000.A similar thing just happened to me this summer .
I had been working for three years without a vacation , frequently working 12 + day work weeks , never getting a raise or a bonus , doing the work of two or three people , etc .
It was total hell and those three years probably did some serious stress damage to my health .
Eventually I told some coworkers that I was actively searching for any other job to get out of there .
Anything to get out .
I was willing to take a job as a dishwasher to get out of there .
Word got out to the management .
I got a $ 4,800 raise .
As far as I am concerned that is way to little way too late .
I quit and got a job as an apprentice electrician with an electrical subcontractor .
I only work 8 hours a day , five days a week .
And within 4 years my salary will be up to what it was when I quit IT .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>  i JUST got handed a letter stating i was getting a raise.
$5,000.A similar thing just happened to me this summer.
I had been working for three years without a vacation, frequently working 12+ day work weeks, never getting a raise or a bonus, doing the work of two or three people, etc.
It was total hell and those three years probably did some serious stress damage to my health.
Eventually I told some coworkers that I was actively searching for any other job to get out of there.
Anything to get out.
I was willing to take a job as a dishwasher to get out of there.
Word got out to the management.
I got a $4,800 raise.
As far as I am concerned that is way to little way too late.
I quit and got a job as an apprentice electrician with an electrical subcontractor.
I only work 8 hours a day, five days a week.
And within 4 years my salary will be up to what it was when I quit IT.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680410</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679752</id>
	<title>Re:No more working for the man</title>
	<author>Jane Q. Public</author>
	<datestamp>1262894580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>But putting together "your own app" is not IT. That's software. Two different businesses.</htmltext>
<tokenext>But putting together " your own app " is not IT .
That 's software .
Two different businesses .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But putting together "your own app" is not IT.
That's software.
Two different businesses.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679546</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680748</id>
	<title>You must be young...</title>
	<author>feufeu</author>
	<datestamp>1262866980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well, that's what i thougt after having read the title and the first line...
"all time" = "ten year" ?

And who would read more than a third of the summary ?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , that 's what i thougt after having read the title and the first line.. . " all time " = " ten year " ?
And who would read more than a third of the summary ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, that's what i thougt after having read the title and the first line...
"all time" = "ten year" ?
And who would read more than a third of the summary ?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30689072</id>
	<title>Re:Of course we're dissatisfied</title>
	<author>Avatar8</author>
	<datestamp>1262866740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Now imagine that you did all your normal work, put in the long hours, saved the company $$$, picked up extra duties by the departure of a team member, earned two certifications, came close to divorce and losing your family because you're not there and when you are there you're grumpy, management only talks to you to give you more work and you receive NO raise, NO bonus or any form of gratification.<p>
Welcome to the last two years of my life. I have a feeling there are many others here who have similar experiences.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Now imagine that you did all your normal work , put in the long hours , saved the company $ $ $ , picked up extra duties by the departure of a team member , earned two certifications , came close to divorce and losing your family because you 're not there and when you are there you 're grumpy , management only talks to you to give you more work and you receive NO raise , NO bonus or any form of gratification .
Welcome to the last two years of my life .
I have a feeling there are many others here who have similar experiences .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now imagine that you did all your normal work, put in the long hours, saved the company $$$, picked up extra duties by the departure of a team member, earned two certifications, came close to divorce and losing your family because you're not there and when you are there you're grumpy, management only talks to you to give you more work and you receive NO raise, NO bonus or any form of gratification.
Welcome to the last two years of my life.
I have a feeling there are many others here who have similar experiences.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680410</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30683966</id>
	<title>Waaahh....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262886120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just hold your breathe and wait for the end of globalization. Shouldn't be long now, by my estimates. When oil gets ultra-expensive again and everyone gets sick of "How Everything Is Fucked". If you know how to do something of value, you will thrive.<br>
&nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just hold your breathe and wait for the end of globalization .
Should n't be long now , by my estimates .
When oil gets ultra-expensive again and everyone gets sick of " How Everything Is Fucked " .
If you know how to do something of value , you will thrive .
 </tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just hold your breathe and wait for the end of globalization.
Shouldn't be long now, by my estimates.
When oil gets ultra-expensive again and everyone gets sick of "How Everything Is Fucked".
If you know how to do something of value, you will thrive.
 </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30684176</id>
	<title>Cry me a river</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1262886900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>IT folks make more money on average than a job in other industries that requires the same amount of skill, work, hardship, etc. If you don't like your IT job, take a lower paying job that makes you happy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>IT folks make more money on average than a job in other industries that requires the same amount of skill , work , hardship , etc .
If you do n't like your IT job , take a lower paying job that makes you happy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IT folks make more money on average than a job in other industries that requires the same amount of skill, work, hardship, etc.
If you don't like your IT job, take a lower paying job that makes you happy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30690076</id>
	<title>Re:It's because the view of IT is changing</title>
	<author>fatbuttlarry</author>
	<datestamp>1262875800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><nobr> <wbr></nobr></p><div class="quote"><p>... people who aren't really technically savvy going to places like ITT Technical Institute, and end up working with computers in a place like help desk, or maybe in the lower echelons of the IT department...</p></div><p>I don't disagree with your point, however the company I work for has hired 7 ITT Technical Institute graduates since I started 5 years go, including myself.  College, training and good work ethics have produced some excellent help desk technicians for us.  Although ITT's TV commercials are a bit outrageous, ITT's an institution that teaches Windows, Linux, Programming and 2D/3D Graphics.

I am "tech savvy" and I still took a lot of good from that place.  The "echelons" that you speak of often aren't paid enough to be "tech savvy" lifers.  I just wish companies would value them for what they are and not promote them to a business or management positions by their seniority in the company alone.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>... people who are n't really technically savvy going to places like ITT Technical Institute , and end up working with computers in a place like help desk , or maybe in the lower echelons of the IT department...I do n't disagree with your point , however the company I work for has hired 7 ITT Technical Institute graduates since I started 5 years go , including myself .
College , training and good work ethics have produced some excellent help desk technicians for us .
Although ITT 's TV commercials are a bit outrageous , ITT 's an institution that teaches Windows , Linux , Programming and 2D/3D Graphics .
I am " tech savvy " and I still took a lot of good from that place .
The " echelons " that you speak of often are n't paid enough to be " tech savvy " lifers .
I just wish companies would value them for what they are and not promote them to a business or management positions by their seniority in the company alone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> ... people who aren't really technically savvy going to places like ITT Technical Institute, and end up working with computers in a place like help desk, or maybe in the lower echelons of the IT department...I don't disagree with your point, however the company I work for has hired 7 ITT Technical Institute graduates since I started 5 years go, including myself.
College, training and good work ethics have produced some excellent help desk technicians for us.
Although ITT's TV commercials are a bit outrageous, ITT's an institution that teaches Windows, Linux, Programming and 2D/3D Graphics.
I am "tech savvy" and I still took a lot of good from that place.
The "echelons" that you speak of often aren't paid enough to be "tech savvy" lifers.
I just wish companies would value them for what they are and not promote them to a business or management positions by their seniority in the company alone.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30694212</id>
	<title>Re:Regulation is what does it for me</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262965440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> <i>The main cause of dissatisfaction for me is the regulation, particularly ITIL.</i></p></div> </blockquote><p>Ah, yes.  ITIL: The beancounters wet dream.  Something only Futurama's Hermes could love.  Those IT people have entirely too much job satisfaction. What can be done to suck all the enjoyment out of their jobs?  That's it!  Have them fill out a four page form and beg for permission to make any change no matter how small to a computer system.  We'll call this "documenting the change".  Never mind that nobody will ever read any of these forms in order to find out what on the computer systems.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The main cause of dissatisfaction for me is the regulation , particularly ITIL .
Ah , yes .
ITIL : The beancounters wet dream .
Something only Futurama 's Hermes could love .
Those IT people have entirely too much job satisfaction .
What can be done to suck all the enjoyment out of their jobs ?
That 's it !
Have them fill out a four page form and beg for permission to make any change no matter how small to a computer system .
We 'll call this " documenting the change " .
Never mind that nobody will ever read any of these forms in order to find out what on the computer systems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> The main cause of dissatisfaction for me is the regulation, particularly ITIL.
Ah, yes.
ITIL: The beancounters wet dream.
Something only Futurama's Hermes could love.
Those IT people have entirely too much job satisfaction.
What can be done to suck all the enjoyment out of their jobs?
That's it!
Have them fill out a four page form and beg for permission to make any change no matter how small to a computer system.
We'll call this "documenting the change".
Never mind that nobody will ever read any of these forms in order to find out what on the computer systems.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681092</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680170</id>
	<title>Re:Of course we're dissatisfied</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262857560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While I do agree that we are underpaid as a group, I dont think money can solve all the issues.</p><p>Like one of the earlier answers - IT has matured. Earlier it was a frontier.. almost the wild west - now it is like any other suburb, and if you always wanted to work in something 'cool' or even 'kewl', IT was not too bad, now IT is definately not cool (and I dont think it ever else will be). So if your happiness about a job is based on what others think of it, you are screwed.</p><p>To add to this mess is the fact that a lot of IT jobs are vulnerable to outsourcing.</p><p>
&nbsp; So there we have the combo for dissatisfaction: Underpaid + 'uncool' job + job may disappear (for ever)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While I do agree that we are underpaid as a group , I dont think money can solve all the issues.Like one of the earlier answers - IT has matured .
Earlier it was a frontier.. almost the wild west - now it is like any other suburb , and if you always wanted to work in something 'cool ' or even 'kewl ' , IT was not too bad , now IT is definately not cool ( and I dont think it ever else will be ) .
So if your happiness about a job is based on what others think of it , you are screwed.To add to this mess is the fact that a lot of IT jobs are vulnerable to outsourcing .
  So there we have the combo for dissatisfaction : Underpaid + 'uncool ' job + job may disappear ( for ever )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While I do agree that we are underpaid as a group, I dont think money can solve all the issues.Like one of the earlier answers - IT has matured.
Earlier it was a frontier.. almost the wild west - now it is like any other suburb, and if you always wanted to work in something 'cool' or even 'kewl', IT was not too bad, now IT is definately not cool (and I dont think it ever else will be).
So if your happiness about a job is based on what others think of it, you are screwed.To add to this mess is the fact that a lot of IT jobs are vulnerable to outsourcing.
  So there we have the combo for dissatisfaction: Underpaid + 'uncool' job + job may disappear (for ever)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679956</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680410</id>
	<title>Re:Of course we're dissatisfied</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262861640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm conflicted by this one. i JUST got handed a letter stating i was getting a raise. $5,000. pretty good in this economy you might say, but at the same time i've pumped out the work of 2 positions (one was retrenched) as well as put in a fair bit of my own time. by managements own admission, i have saved the company over $500,000 last year alone. that's tangible savings not imaged ones.<p>
so while my input has been recognosied, i was only 2\% more then what was handed out to everyone else (even the lowest performers), and a mere 1\% of the savings i brough them through my extra skills i brought to the table when the company was in dire straights.</p><p>
I'm happy i got something, but it still leaves a sour taste in my mouth when i think of how hard i had to work to get that 2\% extra.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm conflicted by this one .
i JUST got handed a letter stating i was getting a raise .
$ 5,000. pretty good in this economy you might say , but at the same time i 've pumped out the work of 2 positions ( one was retrenched ) as well as put in a fair bit of my own time .
by managements own admission , i have saved the company over $ 500,000 last year alone .
that 's tangible savings not imaged ones .
so while my input has been recognosied , i was only 2 \ % more then what was handed out to everyone else ( even the lowest performers ) , and a mere 1 \ % of the savings i brough them through my extra skills i brought to the table when the company was in dire straights .
I 'm happy i got something , but it still leaves a sour taste in my mouth when i think of how hard i had to work to get that 2 \ % extra .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm conflicted by this one.
i JUST got handed a letter stating i was getting a raise.
$5,000. pretty good in this economy you might say, but at the same time i've pumped out the work of 2 positions (one was retrenched) as well as put in a fair bit of my own time.
by managements own admission, i have saved the company over $500,000 last year alone.
that's tangible savings not imaged ones.
so while my input has been recognosied, i was only 2\% more then what was handed out to everyone else (even the lowest performers), and a mere 1\% of the savings i brough them through my extra skills i brought to the table when the company was in dire straights.
I'm happy i got something, but it still leaves a sour taste in my mouth when i think of how hard i had to work to get that 2\% extra.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679956</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30683526</id>
	<title>Clueless management.</title>
	<author>VIPERsssss</author>
	<datestamp>1262884500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have been twiddling my thumbs for the last 8 hours while waiting for approval on 2 changes.  One of which will take 10 minutes to perform.<br> <br>
Why do I have to wait for approval?  Because management uses this as a tool to measure IT capacity (who can we outsource?).<br> <br>
Why are we needing to outsource?  Because we are paying people to sit around with their thumb up their ass.</p><p>Apologies if this makes me sound bitter</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have been twiddling my thumbs for the last 8 hours while waiting for approval on 2 changes .
One of which will take 10 minutes to perform .
Why do I have to wait for approval ?
Because management uses this as a tool to measure IT capacity ( who can we outsource ? ) .
Why are we needing to outsource ?
Because we are paying people to sit around with their thumb up their ass.Apologies if this makes me sound bitter</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have been twiddling my thumbs for the last 8 hours while waiting for approval on 2 changes.
One of which will take 10 minutes to perform.
Why do I have to wait for approval?
Because management uses this as a tool to measure IT capacity (who can we outsource?).
Why are we needing to outsource?
Because we are paying people to sit around with their thumb up their ass.Apologies if this makes me sound bitter</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681606</id>
	<title>Re:Not attracting new blood, good suggestions igno</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262875440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There are only so many times an intelligent person will go that extra mile, get rewarded with a proverbial kick in the teeth, before they learn not to bother.</p></div><p>Amen!</p><p>This is exactly where I stand now. I have for years given heart and soul to providing the best support, keeping systems running and giving ideas to improve processes and save money.<br>Kicked down and insulted one too many times.<br>Now they have a warm body that does the bare minimum not to get fired.</p><p>Peter&gt; The thing is, Bob, it's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care.<br>Peter&gt;<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.....But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are only so many times an intelligent person will go that extra mile , get rewarded with a proverbial kick in the teeth , before they learn not to bother.Amen ! This is exactly where I stand now .
I have for years given heart and soul to providing the best support , keeping systems running and giving ideas to improve processes and save money.Kicked down and insulted one too many times.Now they have a warm body that does the bare minimum not to get fired.Peter &gt; The thing is , Bob , it 's not that I 'm lazy , it 's that I just do n't care.Peter &gt; .....But you know , Bob , that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are only so many times an intelligent person will go that extra mile, get rewarded with a proverbial kick in the teeth, before they learn not to bother.Amen!This is exactly where I stand now.
I have for years given heart and soul to providing the best support, keeping systems running and giving ideas to improve processes and save money.Kicked down and insulted one too many times.Now they have a warm body that does the bare minimum not to get fired.Peter&gt; The thing is, Bob, it's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care.Peter&gt; .....But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679632</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30684044</id>
	<title>Re:Perhaps...</title>
	<author>GargamelSpaceman</author>
	<datestamp>1262886480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"American workers are the most productive"
</p><p>What is meant by this is that American Workers are using the big tools.  For instance an American Worker driving a back-hoe is a much more productive digger than a Dirkadirkistani Worker wielding a garden spade.  They are both diggers, yet the American is more productive, even though the Dirkadirkistani may be working 25 hour days 8 days a week.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" American workers are the most productive " What is meant by this is that American Workers are using the big tools .
For instance an American Worker driving a back-hoe is a much more productive digger than a Dirkadirkistani Worker wielding a garden spade .
They are both diggers , yet the American is more productive , even though the Dirkadirkistani may be working 25 hour days 8 days a week .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"American workers are the most productive"
What is meant by this is that American Workers are using the big tools.
For instance an American Worker driving a back-hoe is a much more productive digger than a Dirkadirkistani Worker wielding a garden spade.
They are both diggers, yet the American is more productive, even though the Dirkadirkistani may be working 25 hour days 8 days a week.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30683988</id>
	<title>When in Rome...</title>
	<author>TheRafMan2010</author>
	<datestamp>1262886240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When in Rome, do as the Romans do.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When in Rome , do as the Romans do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When in Rome, do as the Romans do.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679704</id>
	<title>It's because the view of IT is changing</title>
	<author>rennerik</author>
	<datestamp>1262807640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Back maybe a bit more than a decade ago, IT and everything around it (computers in general) were pretty specialized.  IT technicians were well-respected almost to an engineering/scientist level.  Most were well-versed in their field; they were professional and experts in what they did.<br>
<br>
But nowadays, when people think of computer people, they think of Geek Squad or the neighborhood computer nerd.  Just fiddle around with some software and BAM, it works.  In fact, it's so "easy" to "do computers" that you can find "Idiot's Guide" books on it, people who aren't really technically savvy going to places like ITT Technical Institute, and end up working with computers in a place like help desk, or maybe in the lower echelons of the IT department... so couple this with the fact that most people don't realize that programming and information technology (especially the higher-level jobs in those departments) are basically engineering-grade/scientist-grade positions, and the fact that the knowledge required to call yourself a "computer person" or "IT technician" is getting less and less... IT people, especially professionals, become less well-respected.  Some even get treated poorly by fellow employees.  Management tends to treat them as "just tech guys" -- like any other employee -- not really realizing that your data-entry person or secretary might be easily replaceable, but an IT person is a valuable asset because of his/her knowledge and experience.  The more they know, the more valuable they are to your company, etc.<br>
<br>
So, being an IT guy ain't what it used to be... at least to the public at large.  And I think that lack of respect/not being appreciated for the kind of work that we do/etc is what's causing a disconnect and a need for professionals to become *consultants*.  Because, once you bill at several hundred dollars an hour, people start listening to you a lot more, and respecting you significantly better.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Back maybe a bit more than a decade ago , IT and everything around it ( computers in general ) were pretty specialized .
IT technicians were well-respected almost to an engineering/scientist level .
Most were well-versed in their field ; they were professional and experts in what they did .
But nowadays , when people think of computer people , they think of Geek Squad or the neighborhood computer nerd .
Just fiddle around with some software and BAM , it works .
In fact , it 's so " easy " to " do computers " that you can find " Idiot 's Guide " books on it , people who are n't really technically savvy going to places like ITT Technical Institute , and end up working with computers in a place like help desk , or maybe in the lower echelons of the IT department... so couple this with the fact that most people do n't realize that programming and information technology ( especially the higher-level jobs in those departments ) are basically engineering-grade/scientist-grade positions , and the fact that the knowledge required to call yourself a " computer person " or " IT technician " is getting less and less... IT people , especially professionals , become less well-respected .
Some even get treated poorly by fellow employees .
Management tends to treat them as " just tech guys " -- like any other employee -- not really realizing that your data-entry person or secretary might be easily replaceable , but an IT person is a valuable asset because of his/her knowledge and experience .
The more they know , the more valuable they are to your company , etc .
So , being an IT guy ai n't what it used to be... at least to the public at large .
And I think that lack of respect/not being appreciated for the kind of work that we do/etc is what 's causing a disconnect and a need for professionals to become * consultants * .
Because , once you bill at several hundred dollars an hour , people start listening to you a lot more , and respecting you significantly better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back maybe a bit more than a decade ago, IT and everything around it (computers in general) were pretty specialized.
IT technicians were well-respected almost to an engineering/scientist level.
Most were well-versed in their field; they were professional and experts in what they did.
But nowadays, when people think of computer people, they think of Geek Squad or the neighborhood computer nerd.
Just fiddle around with some software and BAM, it works.
In fact, it's so "easy" to "do computers" that you can find "Idiot's Guide" books on it, people who aren't really technically savvy going to places like ITT Technical Institute, and end up working with computers in a place like help desk, or maybe in the lower echelons of the IT department... so couple this with the fact that most people don't realize that programming and information technology (especially the higher-level jobs in those departments) are basically engineering-grade/scientist-grade positions, and the fact that the knowledge required to call yourself a "computer person" or "IT technician" is getting less and less... IT people, especially professionals, become less well-respected.
Some even get treated poorly by fellow employees.
Management tends to treat them as "just tech guys" -- like any other employee -- not really realizing that your data-entry person or secretary might be easily replaceable, but an IT person is a valuable asset because of his/her knowledge and experience.
The more they know, the more valuable they are to your company, etc.
So, being an IT guy ain't what it used to be... at least to the public at large.
And I think that lack of respect/not being appreciated for the kind of work that we do/etc is what's causing a disconnect and a need for professionals to become *consultants*.
Because, once you bill at several hundred dollars an hour, people start listening to you a lot more, and respecting you significantly better.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30682710</id>
	<title>Re:More mature IT is just... less exciting</title>
	<author>jimbobborg</author>
	<datestamp>1262881500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I personally blame Microsoft.  Work with me on this.  From the mid-1990s on, Microsoft took a good idea (MCSE), commoditized it, and just about anyone with some time, books, and money to burn on tests could pass the exams and become certified.  So now you have a bunch of people who come out of a six week course with credentials building servers.  And Windows servers are not very difficult to build.  I've personally had to deal with people with NO IT skills who've built a Windows server and set up IIS and need help getting something working on it.  Windows Server severely lowered the entry bar for people to get in, and really lowered the pay rate for those of us who can do the job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I personally blame Microsoft .
Work with me on this .
From the mid-1990s on , Microsoft took a good idea ( MCSE ) , commoditized it , and just about anyone with some time , books , and money to burn on tests could pass the exams and become certified .
So now you have a bunch of people who come out of a six week course with credentials building servers .
And Windows servers are not very difficult to build .
I 've personally had to deal with people with NO IT skills who 've built a Windows server and set up IIS and need help getting something working on it .
Windows Server severely lowered the entry bar for people to get in , and really lowered the pay rate for those of us who can do the job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I personally blame Microsoft.
Work with me on this.
From the mid-1990s on, Microsoft took a good idea (MCSE), commoditized it, and just about anyone with some time, books, and money to burn on tests could pass the exams and become certified.
So now you have a bunch of people who come out of a six week course with credentials building servers.
And Windows servers are not very difficult to build.
I've personally had to deal with people with NO IT skills who've built a Windows server and set up IIS and need help getting something working on it.
Windows Server severely lowered the entry bar for people to get in, and really lowered the pay rate for those of us who can do the job.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681418</id>
	<title>Re:Huh, I wonder why?</title>
	<author>chooks</author>
	<datestamp>1262874180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Good for you. It took me 10 years to come to the same realization that for me IT was not a good career choice. I am glad that I did it for those years, but the thought of another 30 years was almost unbearable to think about.  Now I still have a ways to go in school, but am doing things that I never dreamed of and seeing amazing things on a pretty regular basis.  Hope that you actually manage to get out of IT and do something interesting.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Good for you .
It took me 10 years to come to the same realization that for me IT was not a good career choice .
I am glad that I did it for those years , but the thought of another 30 years was almost unbearable to think about .
Now I still have a ways to go in school , but am doing things that I never dreamed of and seeing amazing things on a pretty regular basis .
Hope that you actually manage to get out of IT and do something interesting .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good for you.
It took me 10 years to come to the same realization that for me IT was not a good career choice.
I am glad that I did it for those years, but the thought of another 30 years was almost unbearable to think about.
Now I still have a ways to go in school, but am doing things that I never dreamed of and seeing amazing things on a pretty regular basis.
Hope that you actually manage to get out of IT and do something interesting.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30687304</id>
	<title>Re:Um... Salary?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262857680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Amen</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Amen</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Amen</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681762</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681508</id>
	<title>Overtime Pay</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262874780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am in an applied field of tech and the overtime pay is not there.  It's called "professional overtime."  I work on average over 100 hours per 2-week pay period and yet the company STILL wants to downsize.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am in an applied field of tech and the overtime pay is not there .
It 's called " professional overtime .
" I work on average over 100 hours per 2-week pay period and yet the company STILL wants to downsize .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am in an applied field of tech and the overtime pay is not there.
It's called "professional overtime.
"  I work on average over 100 hours per 2-week pay period and yet the company STILL wants to downsize.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679644</id>
	<title>What...</title>
	<author>i58</author>
	<datestamp>1262806680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>You mean a career in IT isn't about reading<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. all day? Man, this sucks!</htmltext>
<tokenext>You mean a career in IT is n't about reading / .
all day ?
Man , this sucks !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You mean a career in IT isn't about reading /.
all day?
Man, this sucks!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679812</id>
	<title>Limits</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262895240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are limits. Even the happiest, most optimistic IT pro gets weary of dealing with morons, asshats, and people whose sense of entitlement far exceeds their actual worth to the organization.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are limits .
Even the happiest , most optimistic IT pro gets weary of dealing with morons , asshats , and people whose sense of entitlement far exceeds their actual worth to the organization .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are limits.
Even the happiest, most optimistic IT pro gets weary of dealing with morons, asshats, and people whose sense of entitlement far exceeds their actual worth to the organization.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30685178</id>
	<title>because it gets you nothing</title>
	<author>josepha48</author>
	<datestamp>1262890920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>companies treat it workers like cogs in a wheel and it workers don't like it.  so they get frustrated and say screw the man, I'm here from 9-5 and no more and I ain't gonna bust my hump, when it will only get me laid off in the end.</htmltext>
<tokenext>companies treat it workers like cogs in a wheel and it workers do n't like it .
so they get frustrated and say screw the man , I 'm here from 9-5 and no more and I ai n't gon na bust my hump , when it will only get me laid off in the end .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>companies treat it workers like cogs in a wheel and it workers don't like it.
so they get frustrated and say screw the man, I'm here from 9-5 and no more and I ain't gonna bust my hump, when it will only get me laid off in the end.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30684668</id>
	<title>Re:When you get down to it, it's pretty monotanous</title>
	<author>thePowerOfGrayskull</author>
	<datestamp>1262888880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Before I did IS work, I was a landscaper.  And as much as I enjoy the intellectual challenges of software development, I often think back to the work I did then (including the blistering days in the sun, and the sub-freezing days) and wonder why I left it. There's much to be said for being able to turn around say "Yep, I did that" -- and have "that" be something that everyone can see and appreciate.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Before I did IS work , I was a landscaper .
And as much as I enjoy the intellectual challenges of software development , I often think back to the work I did then ( including the blistering days in the sun , and the sub-freezing days ) and wonder why I left it .
There 's much to be said for being able to turn around say " Yep , I did that " -- and have " that " be something that everyone can see and appreciate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Before I did IS work, I was a landscaper.
And as much as I enjoy the intellectual challenges of software development, I often think back to the work I did then (including the blistering days in the sun, and the sub-freezing days) and wonder why I left it.
There's much to be said for being able to turn around say "Yep, I did that" -- and have "that" be something that everyone can see and appreciate.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30685682</id>
	<title>Re:It's because the view of IT is changing</title>
	<author>ArsonSmith</author>
	<datestamp>1262893200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>"Back maybe a bit more than a decade ago, IT and everything around it (computers in general) were pretty specialized. IT technicians were well-respected almost to an engineering/scientist level."</i></p><p>Strange how that was during a time when anybody that knew how to unscrew the cover of a computer could get VC in the millions.</p><p><i>"Most were well-versed in their field; they were professional and experts in what they did."</i></p><p>I think we went through different 10-12 year ago periods.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Back maybe a bit more than a decade ago , IT and everything around it ( computers in general ) were pretty specialized .
IT technicians were well-respected almost to an engineering/scientist level .
" Strange how that was during a time when anybody that knew how to unscrew the cover of a computer could get VC in the millions .
" Most were well-versed in their field ; they were professional and experts in what they did .
" I think we went through different 10-12 year ago periods .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Back maybe a bit more than a decade ago, IT and everything around it (computers in general) were pretty specialized.
IT technicians were well-respected almost to an engineering/scientist level.
"Strange how that was during a time when anybody that knew how to unscrew the cover of a computer could get VC in the millions.
"Most were well-versed in their field; they were professional and experts in what they did.
"I think we went through different 10-12 year ago periods.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679894</id>
	<title>More mature IT is just... less exciting</title>
	<author>poopie</author>
	<datestamp>1262896380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... and that's in the best interest of the business. The business likes predictable systems and services.</p><p>Most of us slashdotters with low userid numbers can vouch for the fact that a whole lot has changed in the last 12 or so years.</p><p>IT used to be the wild west. UNIX was not widely well understood -- even by software developers. UNIX servers were inaccessible. UNIX servers were big bucks. Linux was obscure. Hardly any computer hardware or software did much of anything out of the box. Sysadmins, consultants, and IT workers were worth their weight in gold -- because that wasn't any other option.</p><p>Now... IT is mature. Hardware is cheap and reliable. Linux is ubiquitous. Linux admin experience is not rare. apt-get or yum can deploy massive amounts of useful, nearly preconfigured software in minutes that would have taken sysadmins WEEKS or MONTHS to build, deploy, patch, etc in the past.</p><p>When I first started in IT, building a server was an *ART*. Each one was unique -- from the hardware to the disk layout to the partitioning, to the OS, to the locally installed software. Building a server was like building a Stradivarius.</p><p>Now, building a server is like stamping a kazoo out of tin. I can make 500 kazoos a day. They're all the same. I don't even need to log into them once.</p><p>In the past, general IT folks were quite often the white hat security experts who learned by doing/experimenting. Now... most companies have security teams an intrusion detection systems that sound alarms if anyone runs nmap on nessus.</p><p>Your average IT guy USED to have endless opportunities to be a hero by introducing opensource software options that almost nobody else in the company knew about. Linux in the mainstream has changed all that.</p><p>A *GOOD* IT worker used to have almost magical abilities to do orders of magnitude more work. Now, large scale admin processes are much more widely understood, there are many more tools, and those magical processes are well documented and demystified so that even the junior IT folks can do them.</p><p>How many IT jobs today involve compliance? How rewarding is compliance-related work? I bet that some of the lack of willingness to suggest process improvements is somehow tied to the process baggage of IT compliance.</p><p>I still like my job, but it's changed a lot. I don't *just* do IT. I add value to my company. Today, IT needs to be much more closely integrated with the business. IT needs to be a business partner. I doubt any businesses today would hire a BOFH.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... and that 's in the best interest of the business .
The business likes predictable systems and services.Most of us slashdotters with low userid numbers can vouch for the fact that a whole lot has changed in the last 12 or so years.IT used to be the wild west .
UNIX was not widely well understood -- even by software developers .
UNIX servers were inaccessible .
UNIX servers were big bucks .
Linux was obscure .
Hardly any computer hardware or software did much of anything out of the box .
Sysadmins , consultants , and IT workers were worth their weight in gold -- because that was n't any other option.Now... IT is mature .
Hardware is cheap and reliable .
Linux is ubiquitous .
Linux admin experience is not rare .
apt-get or yum can deploy massive amounts of useful , nearly preconfigured software in minutes that would have taken sysadmins WEEKS or MONTHS to build , deploy , patch , etc in the past.When I first started in IT , building a server was an * ART * .
Each one was unique -- from the hardware to the disk layout to the partitioning , to the OS , to the locally installed software .
Building a server was like building a Stradivarius.Now , building a server is like stamping a kazoo out of tin .
I can make 500 kazoos a day .
They 're all the same .
I do n't even need to log into them once.In the past , general IT folks were quite often the white hat security experts who learned by doing/experimenting .
Now... most companies have security teams an intrusion detection systems that sound alarms if anyone runs nmap on nessus.Your average IT guy USED to have endless opportunities to be a hero by introducing opensource software options that almost nobody else in the company knew about .
Linux in the mainstream has changed all that.A * GOOD * IT worker used to have almost magical abilities to do orders of magnitude more work .
Now , large scale admin processes are much more widely understood , there are many more tools , and those magical processes are well documented and demystified so that even the junior IT folks can do them.How many IT jobs today involve compliance ?
How rewarding is compliance-related work ?
I bet that some of the lack of willingness to suggest process improvements is somehow tied to the process baggage of IT compliance.I still like my job , but it 's changed a lot .
I do n't * just * do IT .
I add value to my company .
Today , IT needs to be much more closely integrated with the business .
IT needs to be a business partner .
I doubt any businesses today would hire a BOFH .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... and that's in the best interest of the business.
The business likes predictable systems and services.Most of us slashdotters with low userid numbers can vouch for the fact that a whole lot has changed in the last 12 or so years.IT used to be the wild west.
UNIX was not widely well understood -- even by software developers.
UNIX servers were inaccessible.
UNIX servers were big bucks.
Linux was obscure.
Hardly any computer hardware or software did much of anything out of the box.
Sysadmins, consultants, and IT workers were worth their weight in gold -- because that wasn't any other option.Now... IT is mature.
Hardware is cheap and reliable.
Linux is ubiquitous.
Linux admin experience is not rare.
apt-get or yum can deploy massive amounts of useful, nearly preconfigured software in minutes that would have taken sysadmins WEEKS or MONTHS to build, deploy, patch, etc in the past.When I first started in IT, building a server was an *ART*.
Each one was unique -- from the hardware to the disk layout to the partitioning, to the OS, to the locally installed software.
Building a server was like building a Stradivarius.Now, building a server is like stamping a kazoo out of tin.
I can make 500 kazoos a day.
They're all the same.
I don't even need to log into them once.In the past, general IT folks were quite often the white hat security experts who learned by doing/experimenting.
Now... most companies have security teams an intrusion detection systems that sound alarms if anyone runs nmap on nessus.Your average IT guy USED to have endless opportunities to be a hero by introducing opensource software options that almost nobody else in the company knew about.
Linux in the mainstream has changed all that.A *GOOD* IT worker used to have almost magical abilities to do orders of magnitude more work.
Now, large scale admin processes are much more widely understood, there are many more tools, and those magical processes are well documented and demystified so that even the junior IT folks can do them.How many IT jobs today involve compliance?
How rewarding is compliance-related work?
I bet that some of the lack of willingness to suggest process improvements is somehow tied to the process baggage of IT compliance.I still like my job, but it's changed a lot.
I don't *just* do IT.
I add value to my company.
Today, IT needs to be much more closely integrated with the business.
IT needs to be a business partner.
I doubt any businesses today would hire a BOFH.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681498</id>
	<title>computing as commodity</title>
	<author>pikine</author>
	<datestamp>1262874720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Funny how you mentioned janitor. Most people don't hire a full-time janitor on-site. Janitors are called when there is a problem. However, large organizations do have their own paid full-time buildings and grounds unit. If computing should (and it seems to) become commodity one day, it will be like that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Funny how you mentioned janitor .
Most people do n't hire a full-time janitor on-site .
Janitors are called when there is a problem .
However , large organizations do have their own paid full-time buildings and grounds unit .
If computing should ( and it seems to ) become commodity one day , it will be like that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Funny how you mentioned janitor.
Most people don't hire a full-time janitor on-site.
Janitors are called when there is a problem.
However, large organizations do have their own paid full-time buildings and grounds unit.
If computing should (and it seems to) become commodity one day, it will be like that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680288</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680788</id>
	<title>Time to apply losertarian logic</title>
	<author>jhylkema</author>
	<datestamp>1262867580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The solution, of course, is to repeal all labour laws, all antitrust laws and to outlaw unions.  Oh, and repeal all restrictions on importing foreign labour.  That way, employers, out of the goodness of their hearts, will be nicer and agree to pay more money and provide more benefits.</p><p>Makes perfect sense to me too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The solution , of course , is to repeal all labour laws , all antitrust laws and to outlaw unions .
Oh , and repeal all restrictions on importing foreign labour .
That way , employers , out of the goodness of their hearts , will be nicer and agree to pay more money and provide more benefits.Makes perfect sense to me too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The solution, of course, is to repeal all labour laws, all antitrust laws and to outlaw unions.
Oh, and repeal all restrictions on importing foreign labour.
That way, employers, out of the goodness of their hearts, will be nicer and agree to pay more money and provide more benefits.Makes perfect sense to me too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680002</id>
	<title>Re:More mature IT is just... less exciting</title>
	<author>Krishnoid</author>
	<datestamp>1262854920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I doubt any businesses today would hire a BOFH.</p></div><p>
Even the <a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/24/bofh\_2009\_episode\_10/" title="theregister.co.uk">BOFH</a> [theregister.co.uk] has ways of keeping up with the times -- it's all about being able to adapt to changing conditions.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I doubt any businesses today would hire a BOFH .
Even the BOFH [ theregister.co.uk ] has ways of keeping up with the times -- it 's all about being able to adapt to changing conditions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I doubt any businesses today would hire a BOFH.
Even the BOFH [theregister.co.uk] has ways of keeping up with the times -- it's all about being able to adapt to changing conditions.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30682218</id>
	<title>Predictable</title>
	<author>b4upoo</author>
	<datestamp>1262878920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>             The right wing introduced the nonsense economic theories which featured counter productive cost cuts. Business fell right in line as businesses usually lean towards right wing doctrines. As businesses cut raises, promotions, benefits and downgraded working conditions IT employees have responded with less concern about job performance.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Social parallels exist. For example our military has trouble getting volunteers. The bad press over lousy VA Hospital and follow up for war veterans tells most half way intelligent young people to stay away from military service. Whether it is giving your life in an instant on the battle field or giving your life minute by minute to a job people expect and demand to be very well rewarded for their efforts. Promises mean nothing. Too many have been promised much only to see the for sale sign or out of business sign on the door. It is all about businesses actually performing by holding up their end of the social contract.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The right wing introduced the nonsense economic theories which featured counter productive cost cuts .
Business fell right in line as businesses usually lean towards right wing doctrines .
As businesses cut raises , promotions , benefits and downgraded working conditions IT employees have responded with less concern about job performance .
                            Social parallels exist .
For example our military has trouble getting volunteers .
The bad press over lousy VA Hospital and follow up for war veterans tells most half way intelligent young people to stay away from military service .
Whether it is giving your life in an instant on the battle field or giving your life minute by minute to a job people expect and demand to be very well rewarded for their efforts .
Promises mean nothing .
Too many have been promised much only to see the for sale sign or out of business sign on the door .
It is all about businesses actually performing by holding up their end of the social contract .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>             The right wing introduced the nonsense economic theories which featured counter productive cost cuts.
Business fell right in line as businesses usually lean towards right wing doctrines.
As businesses cut raises, promotions, benefits and downgraded working conditions IT employees have responded with less concern about job performance.
                            Social parallels exist.
For example our military has trouble getting volunteers.
The bad press over lousy VA Hospital and follow up for war veterans tells most half way intelligent young people to stay away from military service.
Whether it is giving your life in an instant on the battle field or giving your life minute by minute to a job people expect and demand to be very well rewarded for their efforts.
Promises mean nothing.
Too many have been promised much only to see the for sale sign or out of business sign on the door.
It is all about businesses actually performing by holding up their end of the social contract.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681762</id>
	<title>Um... Salary?</title>
	<author>pyster</author>
	<datestamp>1262876400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think one thing that is missing is that companies abuse their IT workers. They often pay them salary and them make them work 24-7, and if one complains they retort "be glad you have a job". Some of them are in clear violation of employment laws yet employees feel trapped. So they remain oncall 24-7; even when they are on vacation in states far away. It's hard to give a shit, and fo the extra effort when your employer is basically an abusive slave driver. With most jobs, when you go home, its done, and jobs that require you to be always on compensate you fairly. <br> <br>
The place I used to work for... I loved the technology. I cared about its quality.Loved my co-workers. In return? Low wages, zero freetime, a douche bag who I'd have to clean up after, broken promises of change/tools/company car... My eye would twitch with the stress... While the sales people would gloat about the new house or car they just bought with the convoluted deal they sold and said 'make this work, and you have 2 days.'... (the new digs are the complete opposite experience.)<br> <br>
Lots of IT shops are glorified sweatshops.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think one thing that is missing is that companies abuse their IT workers .
They often pay them salary and them make them work 24-7 , and if one complains they retort " be glad you have a job " .
Some of them are in clear violation of employment laws yet employees feel trapped .
So they remain oncall 24-7 ; even when they are on vacation in states far away .
It 's hard to give a shit , and fo the extra effort when your employer is basically an abusive slave driver .
With most jobs , when you go home , its done , and jobs that require you to be always on compensate you fairly .
The place I used to work for... I loved the technology .
I cared about its quality.Loved my co-workers .
In return ?
Low wages , zero freetime , a douche bag who I 'd have to clean up after , broken promises of change/tools/company car... My eye would twitch with the stress... While the sales people would gloat about the new house or car they just bought with the convoluted deal they sold and said 'make this work , and you have 2 days.'.. .
( the new digs are the complete opposite experience .
) Lots of IT shops are glorified sweatshops .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think one thing that is missing is that companies abuse their IT workers.
They often pay them salary and them make them work 24-7, and if one complains they retort "be glad you have a job".
Some of them are in clear violation of employment laws yet employees feel trapped.
So they remain oncall 24-7; even when they are on vacation in states far away.
It's hard to give a shit, and fo the extra effort when your employer is basically an abusive slave driver.
With most jobs, when you go home, its done, and jobs that require you to be always on compensate you fairly.
The place I used to work for... I loved the technology.
I cared about its quality.Loved my co-workers.
In return?
Low wages, zero freetime, a douche bag who I'd have to clean up after, broken promises of change/tools/company car... My eye would twitch with the stress... While the sales people would gloat about the new house or car they just bought with the convoluted deal they sold and said 'make this work, and you have 2 days.'...
(the new digs are the complete opposite experience.
) 
Lots of IT shops are glorified sweatshops.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679956</id>
	<title>Of course we're dissatisfied</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262897100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You only need to read the summary to see why job satisfaction in IT is so low. They see it as a problem that IT employees are less willing to work long hours for free, but I take this to be a very good sign. It's high time that IT workers stand up for themselves. I understand that the nature of the job may lead to occasional overtime work. But when required overtime is the norm, and it is not even well compensated, that is a sign of mismanagement and/or gross disrespect for employees. No wonder the workers are dissatisfied. (And this is just one of the ways many IT workers are treated poorly.)</p><p>It is really frustrating to me to see so many workers in this field willing to give up their lives for a job. It makes things so much harder for those of us who seek respect and reasonable working conditions. If I can't pay my bills, I don't go to my employer and ask for extra free money. My employer shouldn't be asking me for extra free work week after week because projects were poorly planned.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You only need to read the summary to see why job satisfaction in IT is so low .
They see it as a problem that IT employees are less willing to work long hours for free , but I take this to be a very good sign .
It 's high time that IT workers stand up for themselves .
I understand that the nature of the job may lead to occasional overtime work .
But when required overtime is the norm , and it is not even well compensated , that is a sign of mismanagement and/or gross disrespect for employees .
No wonder the workers are dissatisfied .
( And this is just one of the ways many IT workers are treated poorly .
) It is really frustrating to me to see so many workers in this field willing to give up their lives for a job .
It makes things so much harder for those of us who seek respect and reasonable working conditions .
If I ca n't pay my bills , I do n't go to my employer and ask for extra free money .
My employer should n't be asking me for extra free work week after week because projects were poorly planned .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You only need to read the summary to see why job satisfaction in IT is so low.
They see it as a problem that IT employees are less willing to work long hours for free, but I take this to be a very good sign.
It's high time that IT workers stand up for themselves.
I understand that the nature of the job may lead to occasional overtime work.
But when required overtime is the norm, and it is not even well compensated, that is a sign of mismanagement and/or gross disrespect for employees.
No wonder the workers are dissatisfied.
(And this is just one of the ways many IT workers are treated poorly.
)It is really frustrating to me to see so many workers in this field willing to give up their lives for a job.
It makes things so much harder for those of us who seek respect and reasonable working conditions.
If I can't pay my bills, I don't go to my employer and ask for extra free money.
My employer shouldn't be asking me for extra free work week after week because projects were poorly planned.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30683926</id>
	<title>Re:Not attracting new blood, good suggestions igno</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262886000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>  People who choose to reproduce choose with eyes wide open to have their priorities alter</p> </div><p>I think you are completely wrong. In todays society it seems that people reproduce in the same way that they choose to buy a new puppy. They do not realize nor appreciate the amount of time and energy and the way that they will need to alter their lifestyle that parenthood demands. That is why we have a generation of latchkey kids who were raised by the TV. Because mommy and daddy don't want to give up their careers to properly raise their kids.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>People who choose to reproduce choose with eyes wide open to have their priorities alter I think you are completely wrong .
In todays society it seems that people reproduce in the same way that they choose to buy a new puppy .
They do not realize nor appreciate the amount of time and energy and the way that they will need to alter their lifestyle that parenthood demands .
That is why we have a generation of latchkey kids who were raised by the TV .
Because mommy and daddy do n't want to give up their careers to properly raise their kids .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>  People who choose to reproduce choose with eyes wide open to have their priorities alter I think you are completely wrong.
In todays society it seems that people reproduce in the same way that they choose to buy a new puppy.
They do not realize nor appreciate the amount of time and energy and the way that they will need to alter their lifestyle that parenthood demands.
That is why we have a generation of latchkey kids who were raised by the TV.
Because mommy and daddy don't want to give up their careers to properly raise their kids.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680144</id>
	<title>Re:More mature IT is just... less exciting</title>
	<author>zlogic</author>
	<datestamp>1262857320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hardware used to be expensive, meaning an extra $300 (better parts, better case) was a good investment if it meant that your computer wouldn't break in less than a year. Today most computers are cheap and it breaks, most people just buy another one, instead of taking it to an IT guy for repairs. The new computer would be faster anyway.</p><p>Software is even worse, because of outsourced programmers being paid for the amount of lines of code, they don't bother writing good or efficient code, after all computers are fast and will handle a 400+MB monitor driver without questions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hardware used to be expensive , meaning an extra $ 300 ( better parts , better case ) was a good investment if it meant that your computer would n't break in less than a year .
Today most computers are cheap and it breaks , most people just buy another one , instead of taking it to an IT guy for repairs .
The new computer would be faster anyway.Software is even worse , because of outsourced programmers being paid for the amount of lines of code , they do n't bother writing good or efficient code , after all computers are fast and will handle a 400 + MB monitor driver without questions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hardware used to be expensive, meaning an extra $300 (better parts, better case) was a good investment if it meant that your computer wouldn't break in less than a year.
Today most computers are cheap and it breaks, most people just buy another one, instead of taking it to an IT guy for repairs.
The new computer would be faster anyway.Software is even worse, because of outsourced programmers being paid for the amount of lines of code, they don't bother writing good or efficient code, after all computers are fast and will handle a 400+MB monitor driver without questions.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680698</id>
	<title>Re:Perhaps...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262866500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Economics fail!</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; The availability of workers isn't the problem, it's the fact that the wealth of the countries involved are so different.  And here's the shocker: it has the net effect of bringing the wealth levels closer together!</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; However, the real problem is that in a service economy value(ie wealth) isn't created, and remember: a portion of the transfer is lost to inefficiency.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Economics fail !
    The availability of workers is n't the problem , it 's the fact that the wealth of the countries involved are so different .
And here 's the shocker : it has the net effect of bringing the wealth levels closer together !
    However , the real problem is that in a service economy value ( ie wealth ) is n't created , and remember : a portion of the transfer is lost to inefficiency .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Economics fail!
    The availability of workers isn't the problem, it's the fact that the wealth of the countries involved are so different.
And here's the shocker: it has the net effect of bringing the wealth levels closer together!
    However, the real problem is that in a service economy value(ie wealth) isn't created, and remember: a portion of the transfer is lost to inefficiency.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680352</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30683740</id>
	<title>More guest workers!</title>
	<author>Baldrson</author>
	<datestamp>1262885280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Obviously, if these no-account Americans are too lazy and unmotivated to work for a living, then that simply proves Bill Gates' case for removing the limit on guest worker visas!  I mean, its either that or Microsoft will move to India!</p><p>Hmmm... on second thought....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Obviously , if these no-account Americans are too lazy and unmotivated to work for a living , then that simply proves Bill Gates ' case for removing the limit on guest worker visas !
I mean , its either that or Microsoft will move to India ! Hmmm... on second thought... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Obviously, if these no-account Americans are too lazy and unmotivated to work for a living, then that simply proves Bill Gates' case for removing the limit on guest worker visas!
I mean, its either that or Microsoft will move to India!Hmmm... on second thought....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679810</id>
	<title>Re:Not attracting new blood, good suggestions igno</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262895240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>As you get older, your priorities shift.</p></div><p>Somewhat off topic, but I'd note that the fact that this is true for some people does not make it a universal maxim of human existence.</p><p>People who choose to reproduce choose with eyes wide open to have their priorities alter; it's not something that mysteriously happens as an inevitable result of the aging process.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As you get older , your priorities shift.Somewhat off topic , but I 'd note that the fact that this is true for some people does not make it a universal maxim of human existence.People who choose to reproduce choose with eyes wide open to have their priorities alter ; it 's not something that mysteriously happens as an inevitable result of the aging process .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As you get older, your priorities shift.Somewhat off topic, but I'd note that the fact that this is true for some people does not make it a universal maxim of human existence.People who choose to reproduce choose with eyes wide open to have their priorities alter; it's not something that mysteriously happens as an inevitable result of the aging process.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679632</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680628</id>
	<title>Re:No more working for the man</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262864940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>And then there's ICT, which is probably not quite the same, but I have no idea what the difference really is.</p></div><p>If you provide the servers and workstations and applications for an organization, that's IT. When they cut your budget and make you responsible for the 'phones as well, that's ICT.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And then there 's ICT , which is probably not quite the same , but I have no idea what the difference really is.If you provide the servers and workstations and applications for an organization , that 's IT .
When they cut your budget and make you responsible for the 'phones as well , that 's ICT .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And then there's ICT, which is probably not quite the same, but I have no idea what the difference really is.If you provide the servers and workstations and applications for an organization, that's IT.
When they cut your budget and make you responsible for the 'phones as well, that's ICT.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680276</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680288</id>
	<title>Re:It's because the view of IT is changing</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262860200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I remember seeing some comic strip that portrayed a few different professions and the IT person was 'computer guy'.  How many other fields get disrespected like this on a regular basis?  I dont call Teachers 'overpaid babysitters' or Pharmacists 'drug dealers'.  I started correcting people that I was a Computer Technician or System Administrator and made them feel bad, which they should be.  If you are going to call a janitor a 'custodian' you better fucking use the formal name for someone with a college degree.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I remember seeing some comic strip that portrayed a few different professions and the IT person was 'computer guy' .
How many other fields get disrespected like this on a regular basis ?
I dont call Teachers 'overpaid babysitters ' or Pharmacists 'drug dealers' .
I started correcting people that I was a Computer Technician or System Administrator and made them feel bad , which they should be .
If you are going to call a janitor a 'custodian ' you better fucking use the formal name for someone with a college degree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I remember seeing some comic strip that portrayed a few different professions and the IT person was 'computer guy'.
How many other fields get disrespected like this on a regular basis?
I dont call Teachers 'overpaid babysitters' or Pharmacists 'drug dealers'.
I started correcting people that I was a Computer Technician or System Administrator and made them feel bad, which they should be.
If you are going to call a janitor a 'custodian' you better fucking use the formal name for someone with a college degree.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681564</id>
	<title>Re:Huh, I wonder why?</title>
	<author>osgeek</author>
	<datestamp>1262875140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Grass is greener on the other side of the fence syndrome.</p><p>Sure, IT people are treated like crap as nerds.  But Sales people are treated like crap as aggressive bullshitters.  Marketing people are treated like crap as third nipples who waste everyone's time and "don't get it".  Field Services people are treated like crap as gophers who have to travel.  Finance folks are treated like crap as "bean counters".</p><p>The best solution to being treated like crap isn't to move laterally to another discipline, it's to move vertically up into the power structure.  The higher you go the less often you're treated like crap.  It never really stops, though.  Even the CEO gets called to the mat by customers sometimes.  At least at that point you're getting treated like crap on the company jet.</p><p>I know, become a customer!  Well, then you're just working for some other power structure that will treat you like crap.</p><p>Become a hermit?  Then Mother Nature treats you like crap.  It never ends.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Grass is greener on the other side of the fence syndrome.Sure , IT people are treated like crap as nerds .
But Sales people are treated like crap as aggressive bullshitters .
Marketing people are treated like crap as third nipples who waste everyone 's time and " do n't get it " .
Field Services people are treated like crap as gophers who have to travel .
Finance folks are treated like crap as " bean counters " .The best solution to being treated like crap is n't to move laterally to another discipline , it 's to move vertically up into the power structure .
The higher you go the less often you 're treated like crap .
It never really stops , though .
Even the CEO gets called to the mat by customers sometimes .
At least at that point you 're getting treated like crap on the company jet.I know , become a customer !
Well , then you 're just working for some other power structure that will treat you like crap.Become a hermit ?
Then Mother Nature treats you like crap .
It never ends .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Grass is greener on the other side of the fence syndrome.Sure, IT people are treated like crap as nerds.
But Sales people are treated like crap as aggressive bullshitters.
Marketing people are treated like crap as third nipples who waste everyone's time and "don't get it".
Field Services people are treated like crap as gophers who have to travel.
Finance folks are treated like crap as "bean counters".The best solution to being treated like crap isn't to move laterally to another discipline, it's to move vertically up into the power structure.
The higher you go the less often you're treated like crap.
It never really stops, though.
Even the CEO gets called to the mat by customers sometimes.
At least at that point you're getting treated like crap on the company jet.I know, become a customer!
Well, then you're just working for some other power structure that will treat you like crap.Become a hermit?
Then Mother Nature treats you like crap.
It never ends.
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680404</id>
	<title>Re:Perhaps...</title>
	<author>Afty0r</author>
	<datestamp>1262861580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Every year, the news comes out that US workers are some of the most productive, and every year their productivity rises....</p></div></blockquote><p>And this year, the choco ration is rising from 20 grams to 25 grams!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Every year , the news comes out that US workers are some of the most productive , and every year their productivity rises....And this year , the choco ration is rising from 20 grams to 25 grams !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Every year, the news comes out that US workers are some of the most productive, and every year their productivity rises....And this year, the choco ration is rising from 20 grams to 25 grams!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30689400</id>
	<title>Re:More mature IT is just... less exciting</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262869260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> <i>`The business likes predictable systems and services."</i></p></div> </blockquote><p>When has IT been stable and predictable in the last 10-20 years? What we're implementing today will be obsolete in a year or two. Far earlier than the accountants want to hear about. You want predictable?  Try accounting. Basic accounting principles haven't changed in, what, hundreds (?) of years. I've yet to hear about a company that touts that it's got a leg up on its competition because of its accounting procedures. IT <i>can</i> do that for a company. If management knows what it's doing.

</p><p>One would think that functions like accounts payable (heck, most, if not <i>all</i>, accounting functions), HR, and other slow-to-change fields -- you know, the predictable activities --  would be the first to get outsourced. Things like accounting and HR are very stable and easily turned into rote procedures that any group of folks trained in the procedures can perform. Instead, it's IT and closely related areas (like programming) that's seen the lion's share of all the outsourcing. And that's after they've been bad-mouthed by management as being the cause of all the red ink on the books. (Well, if you managers would take the time to listen about how using Microsoft products is costing the company big bucks...) One always hears "<i>Well IT is a </i>cost<i> center so it makes sense to outsource that to someone who can to it </i>(no pun intended; on second thought...)<i> for less cost.</i>" My response to that would be that the accounting department hasn't made the company any money either. (Unless they work for certain Wall Street companies.) Neither has HR. Why are those functions kept in-shop and the IT function outsourced? Sure IT's job can, to a certain extent, be turned into a set of rote procedures that most any trained orangutan can perform; especially if the solution to all problems is to reboot. For all but the smallest companies, though, the IT infrastructure is complex enough that no set of procedures can be handed off to some outsourcing firm and allow the company to have the same level of service that was the norm when the IT staff were all company employees. Those that replace the internal IT people <i>never</i> have the understanding of how the various parts of the infrastructure and the applications fit together and problems take much, much longer to fix and additions to the IT infrastructure take much, much longer to integrate.

</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>"How many IT jobs today involve compliance? How rewarding is compliance-related work? I bet that some of the lack of willingness to suggest process improvements is somehow tied to the process baggage of IT compliance."</i></p></div> </blockquote><p>Yeah. Compliance <i>is</i> a big part of IT's job nowadays. Making sure that the IT parts of the business comply with a slew of procedures that wouldn't have been ncessary had other parts of the business been equally monitored and regulated. (*cough* Enron *cough* S-OX *cough*) That's not exactly what makes your typical IT guy get out of bed in the morning. Happily, I haven't been directly involved with that sort of activity for the past year or so. Back when my employer was scrambling to be S-OX compliant, I recall wanting to schedule something like unneccessary root canals, elective exploratory surgery, <i>anything</i> to get out of the endless meetings.

</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>"I don't *just* do IT. I add value to my company. Today, IT needs to be much more closely integrated with the business. IT needs to be a business partner."</i></p></div> </blockquote><p>You are one of the lucky ones, working at a company that sees IT people as a valued part of the company.  Most places <i>I've</i> worked see the IT staff as someone just above the level of the custodians. Attempts to "learn the business" are often seen by many in management as taking away from what they see as your primary role of rebooting PCs. And if you weren't involved in providing desktop support but rather were knee-deep in the data centers, making sure that the massive database servers and the network were working as they should, you aren't taken seriously at all. Most of management doesn't even know who you are. At least the desktop support jockey might get some face time with management as they are stuffing more RAM into the Vice President's PC. The larger the organization, the more this seems to be the case. (That's why I'll be looking for a position with a smaller company. I was always more comfortable being able to wear many hats and work in a wider variety of functions anyway.)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>` The business likes predictable systems and services .
" When has IT been stable and predictable in the last 10-20 years ?
What we 're implementing today will be obsolete in a year or two .
Far earlier than the accountants want to hear about .
You want predictable ?
Try accounting .
Basic accounting principles have n't changed in , what , hundreds ( ?
) of years .
I 've yet to hear about a company that touts that it 's got a leg up on its competition because of its accounting procedures .
IT can do that for a company .
If management knows what it 's doing .
One would think that functions like accounts payable ( heck , most , if not all , accounting functions ) , HR , and other slow-to-change fields -- you know , the predictable activities -- would be the first to get outsourced .
Things like accounting and HR are very stable and easily turned into rote procedures that any group of folks trained in the procedures can perform .
Instead , it 's IT and closely related areas ( like programming ) that 's seen the lion 's share of all the outsourcing .
And that 's after they 've been bad-mouthed by management as being the cause of all the red ink on the books .
( Well , if you managers would take the time to listen about how using Microsoft products is costing the company big bucks... ) One always hears " Well IT is a cost center so it makes sense to outsource that to someone who can to it ( no pun intended ; on second thought... ) for less cost .
" My response to that would be that the accounting department has n't made the company any money either .
( Unless they work for certain Wall Street companies .
) Neither has HR .
Why are those functions kept in-shop and the IT function outsourced ?
Sure IT 's job can , to a certain extent , be turned into a set of rote procedures that most any trained orangutan can perform ; especially if the solution to all problems is to reboot .
For all but the smallest companies , though , the IT infrastructure is complex enough that no set of procedures can be handed off to some outsourcing firm and allow the company to have the same level of service that was the norm when the IT staff were all company employees .
Those that replace the internal IT people never have the understanding of how the various parts of the infrastructure and the applications fit together and problems take much , much longer to fix and additions to the IT infrastructure take much , much longer to integrate .
" How many IT jobs today involve compliance ?
How rewarding is compliance-related work ?
I bet that some of the lack of willingness to suggest process improvements is somehow tied to the process baggage of IT compliance .
" Yeah .
Compliance is a big part of IT 's job nowadays .
Making sure that the IT parts of the business comply with a slew of procedures that would n't have been ncessary had other parts of the business been equally monitored and regulated .
( * cough * Enron * cough * S-OX * cough * ) That 's not exactly what makes your typical IT guy get out of bed in the morning .
Happily , I have n't been directly involved with that sort of activity for the past year or so .
Back when my employer was scrambling to be S-OX compliant , I recall wanting to schedule something like unneccessary root canals , elective exploratory surgery , anything to get out of the endless meetings .
" I do n't * just * do IT .
I add value to my company .
Today , IT needs to be much more closely integrated with the business .
IT needs to be a business partner .
" You are one of the lucky ones , working at a company that sees IT people as a valued part of the company .
Most places I 've worked see the IT staff as someone just above the level of the custodians .
Attempts to " learn the business " are often seen by many in management as taking away from what they see as your primary role of rebooting PCs .
And if you were n't involved in providing desktop support but rather were knee-deep in the data centers , making sure that the massive database servers and the network were working as they should , you are n't taken seriously at all .
Most of management does n't even know who you are .
At least the desktop support jockey might get some face time with management as they are stuffing more RAM into the Vice President 's PC .
The larger the organization , the more this seems to be the case .
( That 's why I 'll be looking for a position with a smaller company .
I was always more comfortable being able to wear many hats and work in a wider variety of functions anyway .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext> `The business likes predictable systems and services.
" When has IT been stable and predictable in the last 10-20 years?
What we're implementing today will be obsolete in a year or two.
Far earlier than the accountants want to hear about.
You want predictable?
Try accounting.
Basic accounting principles haven't changed in, what, hundreds (?
) of years.
I've yet to hear about a company that touts that it's got a leg up on its competition because of its accounting procedures.
IT can do that for a company.
If management knows what it's doing.
One would think that functions like accounts payable (heck, most, if not all, accounting functions), HR, and other slow-to-change fields -- you know, the predictable activities --  would be the first to get outsourced.
Things like accounting and HR are very stable and easily turned into rote procedures that any group of folks trained in the procedures can perform.
Instead, it's IT and closely related areas (like programming) that's seen the lion's share of all the outsourcing.
And that's after they've been bad-mouthed by management as being the cause of all the red ink on the books.
(Well, if you managers would take the time to listen about how using Microsoft products is costing the company big bucks...) One always hears "Well IT is a cost center so it makes sense to outsource that to someone who can to it (no pun intended; on second thought...) for less cost.
" My response to that would be that the accounting department hasn't made the company any money either.
(Unless they work for certain Wall Street companies.
) Neither has HR.
Why are those functions kept in-shop and the IT function outsourced?
Sure IT's job can, to a certain extent, be turned into a set of rote procedures that most any trained orangutan can perform; especially if the solution to all problems is to reboot.
For all but the smallest companies, though, the IT infrastructure is complex enough that no set of procedures can be handed off to some outsourcing firm and allow the company to have the same level of service that was the norm when the IT staff were all company employees.
Those that replace the internal IT people never have the understanding of how the various parts of the infrastructure and the applications fit together and problems take much, much longer to fix and additions to the IT infrastructure take much, much longer to integrate.
"How many IT jobs today involve compliance?
How rewarding is compliance-related work?
I bet that some of the lack of willingness to suggest process improvements is somehow tied to the process baggage of IT compliance.
" Yeah.
Compliance is a big part of IT's job nowadays.
Making sure that the IT parts of the business comply with a slew of procedures that wouldn't have been ncessary had other parts of the business been equally monitored and regulated.
(*cough* Enron *cough* S-OX *cough*) That's not exactly what makes your typical IT guy get out of bed in the morning.
Happily, I haven't been directly involved with that sort of activity for the past year or so.
Back when my employer was scrambling to be S-OX compliant, I recall wanting to schedule something like unneccessary root canals, elective exploratory surgery, anything to get out of the endless meetings.
"I don't *just* do IT.
I add value to my company.
Today, IT needs to be much more closely integrated with the business.
IT needs to be a business partner.
" You are one of the lucky ones, working at a company that sees IT people as a valued part of the company.
Most places I've worked see the IT staff as someone just above the level of the custodians.
Attempts to "learn the business" are often seen by many in management as taking away from what they see as your primary role of rebooting PCs.
And if you weren't involved in providing desktop support but rather were knee-deep in the data centers, making sure that the massive database servers and the network were working as they should, you aren't taken seriously at all.
Most of management doesn't even know who you are.
At least the desktop support jockey might get some face time with management as they are stuffing more RAM into the Vice President's PC.
The larger the organization, the more this seems to be the case.
(That's why I'll be looking for a position with a smaller company.
I was always more comfortable being able to wear many hats and work in a wider variety of functions anyway.
)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30686252</id>
	<title>Re:Perhaps...</title>
	<author>Wardish</author>
	<datestamp>1262895960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"IT folks are people like any others and their jobs aren't any more difficult than anyone else's in the corporate family."</p><p>If you believe that then you have not and definitely are not an IT Person.  There are plenty of folks that are working hard to become one, but most won't.  It's a ridiculous skill set, all the associated technical skills, bit of psychology, devil be damned attitude, ability to Listen, and foremost you must be a Problem Solver.  You must be able to listen, question, listen, question, formulate theories, test them, question, listen until you get to the problem.  Then you work out a first level solution that best meets the needs of the business.  Back online at reduced volume until scheduled downtime, quickly implemented final solution.  Whatever it takes.  Last but not least, you finish up by producing a detailed but not overly technical description of what went wrong, why it went wrong, how to keep it from going wrong again, what kind of resources are needed to implement that and a recommendation of what, considering the real risk, is necessary to mitigate problems in the future.</p><p>Let me put it another way.  Six Sigma is a wonderful way to do business, not the fastest, but it's dependable.  MOST OF THE TIME.  But every now and then it really hits the fan.  Normal procedures are going to take a lot of time and financial loss to correct the problem.  That's when you need the IT Person, because he/she can short cut problem solution or jury rig something to allow operations to continue while the problem is fixed.  The so called Heroic measures that six sigma is tasked with removing the need for.</p><p>And I have news for you, those folks are rare.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" IT folks are people like any others and their jobs are n't any more difficult than anyone else 's in the corporate family .
" If you believe that then you have not and definitely are not an IT Person .
There are plenty of folks that are working hard to become one , but most wo n't .
It 's a ridiculous skill set , all the associated technical skills , bit of psychology , devil be damned attitude , ability to Listen , and foremost you must be a Problem Solver .
You must be able to listen , question , listen , question , formulate theories , test them , question , listen until you get to the problem .
Then you work out a first level solution that best meets the needs of the business .
Back online at reduced volume until scheduled downtime , quickly implemented final solution .
Whatever it takes .
Last but not least , you finish up by producing a detailed but not overly technical description of what went wrong , why it went wrong , how to keep it from going wrong again , what kind of resources are needed to implement that and a recommendation of what , considering the real risk , is necessary to mitigate problems in the future.Let me put it another way .
Six Sigma is a wonderful way to do business , not the fastest , but it 's dependable .
MOST OF THE TIME .
But every now and then it really hits the fan .
Normal procedures are going to take a lot of time and financial loss to correct the problem .
That 's when you need the IT Person , because he/she can short cut problem solution or jury rig something to allow operations to continue while the problem is fixed .
The so called Heroic measures that six sigma is tasked with removing the need for.And I have news for you , those folks are rare .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"IT folks are people like any others and their jobs aren't any more difficult than anyone else's in the corporate family.
"If you believe that then you have not and definitely are not an IT Person.
There are plenty of folks that are working hard to become one, but most won't.
It's a ridiculous skill set, all the associated technical skills, bit of psychology, devil be damned attitude, ability to Listen, and foremost you must be a Problem Solver.
You must be able to listen, question, listen, question, formulate theories, test them, question, listen until you get to the problem.
Then you work out a first level solution that best meets the needs of the business.
Back online at reduced volume until scheduled downtime, quickly implemented final solution.
Whatever it takes.
Last but not least, you finish up by producing a detailed but not overly technical description of what went wrong, why it went wrong, how to keep it from going wrong again, what kind of resources are needed to implement that and a recommendation of what, considering the real risk, is necessary to mitigate problems in the future.Let me put it another way.
Six Sigma is a wonderful way to do business, not the fastest, but it's dependable.
MOST OF THE TIME.
But every now and then it really hits the fan.
Normal procedures are going to take a lot of time and financial loss to correct the problem.
That's when you need the IT Person, because he/she can short cut problem solution or jury rig something to allow operations to continue while the problem is fixed.
The so called Heroic measures that six sigma is tasked with removing the need for.And I have news for you, those folks are rare.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681656</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30682802</id>
	<title>Re:IT field avoidance should be a no-brainer</title>
	<author>robert899</author>
	<datestamp>1262881800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>...The IT worker glut will be increased even more by improved automation of information system maintenance, standardization of software, and non-IT specialists who are increasingly sophisticated with information technology.</p></div><p>Industry changes all the time like this. Technological improvements and competition cause displacement. This is why there are hardly any steel workers in the USA. This is why there are no welders on the auto assembly line as they have all been replaced by robotic automation. White collar computer related positions are not going to be immune from this. You must adapt to this reality.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>There can be nothing to stop this devastating trend, due to the following:</p><p>

1) Corrupt USA politicians
2) USA IT workers are not willing to organize
3) Influential corporations have effectively distorted the issues</p></div><p>I agree that these things can affect how fast the industry changes, but organizing IT workers (i.e. unionize) will cause an even faster exodus of jobs.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>...The IT worker glut will be increased even more by improved automation of information system maintenance , standardization of software , and non-IT specialists who are increasingly sophisticated with information technology.Industry changes all the time like this .
Technological improvements and competition cause displacement .
This is why there are hardly any steel workers in the USA .
This is why there are no welders on the auto assembly line as they have all been replaced by robotic automation .
White collar computer related positions are not going to be immune from this .
You must adapt to this reality.There can be nothing to stop this devastating trend , due to the following : 1 ) Corrupt USA politicians 2 ) USA IT workers are not willing to organize 3 ) Influential corporations have effectively distorted the issuesI agree that these things can affect how fast the industry changes , but organizing IT workers ( i.e .
unionize ) will cause an even faster exodus of jobs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...The IT worker glut will be increased even more by improved automation of information system maintenance, standardization of software, and non-IT specialists who are increasingly sophisticated with information technology.Industry changes all the time like this.
Technological improvements and competition cause displacement.
This is why there are hardly any steel workers in the USA.
This is why there are no welders on the auto assembly line as they have all been replaced by robotic automation.
White collar computer related positions are not going to be immune from this.
You must adapt to this reality.There can be nothing to stop this devastating trend, due to the following:

1) Corrupt USA politicians
2) USA IT workers are not willing to organize
3) Influential corporations have effectively distorted the issuesI agree that these things can affect how fast the industry changes, but organizing IT workers (i.e.
unionize) will cause an even faster exodus of jobs.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681612</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681612</id>
	<title>IT field avoidance should be a no-brainer</title>
	<author>walterbyrd</author>
	<datestamp>1262875500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Occam's razor: off-shore labor is a lot cheaper, therefore employers will off-shore every possible job. If you do your job sitting in front of a computer, then your job can probably be off-shored - if not now, then certainly in the near future.</p><p>Furthermore, the simple laws of supply and demand dictate that the few jobs that are not off-shored, will have a glut of qualified applicants. The experienced developers who have their jobs off-shored, will clearly try to leverage their existing training and experience into the few remaining IT jobs that can not be easily off-shored. This causes a glut, and drives down wages.</p><p>The IT worker glut will be increased even more by improved automation of information system maintenance, standardization of software, and non-IT specialists who are increasingly sophisticated with information technology.</p><p>There can be nothing to stop this devastating trend, due to the following:</p><p>1) Corrupt USA politicians<br>2) USA IT workers are not willing to organize<br>3) Influential corporations have effectively distorted the issues</p><p>So there you go, it's as simple as that.</p><p>IMO: this trend is presently in it's infancy. The present trend has very little to do with the present economic slump. In fact, when the US economy recovers, this trend will accelerate even faster. The present situation for US IT workers is much better now, than it will be five years from now.</p><p><a href="http://techtoil.org/wiki/doku.php?id=articles:no-brainer" title="techtoil.org">http://techtoil.org/wiki/doku.php?id=articles:no-brainer</a> [techtoil.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Occam 's razor : off-shore labor is a lot cheaper , therefore employers will off-shore every possible job .
If you do your job sitting in front of a computer , then your job can probably be off-shored - if not now , then certainly in the near future.Furthermore , the simple laws of supply and demand dictate that the few jobs that are not off-shored , will have a glut of qualified applicants .
The experienced developers who have their jobs off-shored , will clearly try to leverage their existing training and experience into the few remaining IT jobs that can not be easily off-shored .
This causes a glut , and drives down wages.The IT worker glut will be increased even more by improved automation of information system maintenance , standardization of software , and non-IT specialists who are increasingly sophisticated with information technology.There can be nothing to stop this devastating trend , due to the following : 1 ) Corrupt USA politicians2 ) USA IT workers are not willing to organize3 ) Influential corporations have effectively distorted the issuesSo there you go , it 's as simple as that.IMO : this trend is presently in it 's infancy .
The present trend has very little to do with the present economic slump .
In fact , when the US economy recovers , this trend will accelerate even faster .
The present situation for US IT workers is much better now , than it will be five years from now.http : //techtoil.org/wiki/doku.php ? id = articles : no-brainer [ techtoil.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Occam's razor: off-shore labor is a lot cheaper, therefore employers will off-shore every possible job.
If you do your job sitting in front of a computer, then your job can probably be off-shored - if not now, then certainly in the near future.Furthermore, the simple laws of supply and demand dictate that the few jobs that are not off-shored, will have a glut of qualified applicants.
The experienced developers who have their jobs off-shored, will clearly try to leverage their existing training and experience into the few remaining IT jobs that can not be easily off-shored.
This causes a glut, and drives down wages.The IT worker glut will be increased even more by improved automation of information system maintenance, standardization of software, and non-IT specialists who are increasingly sophisticated with information technology.There can be nothing to stop this devastating trend, due to the following:1) Corrupt USA politicians2) USA IT workers are not willing to organize3) Influential corporations have effectively distorted the issuesSo there you go, it's as simple as that.IMO: this trend is presently in it's infancy.
The present trend has very little to do with the present economic slump.
In fact, when the US economy recovers, this trend will accelerate even faster.
The present situation for US IT workers is much better now, than it will be five years from now.http://techtoil.org/wiki/doku.php?id=articles:no-brainer [techtoil.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679580</id>
	<title>Re:No more working for the man</title>
	<author>pinkushun</author>
	<datestamp>1262805720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>True! Well I sure feel the vampire fangs of 'management' draining any love I had for IT. The only hope I have left is using my skills in an Indie gaming company<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>True !
Well I sure feel the vampire fangs of 'management ' draining any love I had for IT .
The only hope I have left is using my skills in an Indie gaming company : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>True!
Well I sure feel the vampire fangs of 'management' draining any love I had for IT.
The only hope I have left is using my skills in an Indie gaming company :)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679546</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681658</id>
	<title>Re:Perhaps...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262875740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ah that old problem...</p><p>Believe it or not but that ugly word... DOCUMENTATION will save your but as an IT person.</p><p>First you have to learn yourself and your limits.</p><p>DO NOT give hard estimates prior to investigation.<br>Give a deadline for each stage required not the entire piece of work.</p><p>Not gonna happen?</p><p>Management loves documentation, so give it to them.<br>Formally document your suggestions and their decisions as a risk to include impact analysis.</p><p>Manager must now formally acknowledge his/her decision is what will sink the ship.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ah that old problem...Believe it or not but that ugly word... DOCUMENTATION will save your but as an IT person.First you have to learn yourself and your limits.DO NOT give hard estimates prior to investigation.Give a deadline for each stage required not the entire piece of work.Not gon na happen ? Management loves documentation , so give it to them.Formally document your suggestions and their decisions as a risk to include impact analysis.Manager must now formally acknowledge his/her decision is what will sink the ship .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ah that old problem...Believe it or not but that ugly word... DOCUMENTATION will save your but as an IT person.First you have to learn yourself and your limits.DO NOT give hard estimates prior to investigation.Give a deadline for each stage required not the entire piece of work.Not gonna happen?Management loves documentation, so give it to them.Formally document your suggestions and their decisions as a risk to include impact analysis.Manager must now formally acknowledge his/her decision is what will sink the ship.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681166</id>
	<title>IT union</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262871960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am the sole software developer for a small company startup company (4 years old), and routinely manage the R&amp;D and developement of 3 software products. I have a BSc, MSc and PhD and have spent 7-8 years in higher education.

I often find myself frustrated by not the lack of understanding of what I do by other members of staff, but the lack of willingness to try and understand (being referred to as a technician by one office manager - when I am employed to programmer). Or to repeatedly have to explain why some things are not possible because of limitations with hardware, or third party applications (mostly windows), or laws of statistical mathematics.

In the past I have had a work ethic that resembled that of my PhD... long hours. These have generally gone unnoticed and unappreciated. I now have the 9-5 work ethic, and have at least more time for myself.

I wonder now as the coal miners, and postal workers of the past have done the benefits of forming an organised IT union for developers, technicians, etc.

Imagine the effect of a one day strike in any country by an IT union.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am the sole software developer for a small company startup company ( 4 years old ) , and routinely manage the R&amp;D and developement of 3 software products .
I have a BSc , MSc and PhD and have spent 7-8 years in higher education .
I often find myself frustrated by not the lack of understanding of what I do by other members of staff , but the lack of willingness to try and understand ( being referred to as a technician by one office manager - when I am employed to programmer ) .
Or to repeatedly have to explain why some things are not possible because of limitations with hardware , or third party applications ( mostly windows ) , or laws of statistical mathematics .
In the past I have had a work ethic that resembled that of my PhD... long hours .
These have generally gone unnoticed and unappreciated .
I now have the 9-5 work ethic , and have at least more time for myself .
I wonder now as the coal miners , and postal workers of the past have done the benefits of forming an organised IT union for developers , technicians , etc .
Imagine the effect of a one day strike in any country by an IT union .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am the sole software developer for a small company startup company (4 years old), and routinely manage the R&amp;D and developement of 3 software products.
I have a BSc, MSc and PhD and have spent 7-8 years in higher education.
I often find myself frustrated by not the lack of understanding of what I do by other members of staff, but the lack of willingness to try and understand (being referred to as a technician by one office manager - when I am employed to programmer).
Or to repeatedly have to explain why some things are not possible because of limitations with hardware, or third party applications (mostly windows), or laws of statistical mathematics.
In the past I have had a work ethic that resembled that of my PhD... long hours.
These have generally gone unnoticed and unappreciated.
I now have the 9-5 work ethic, and have at least more time for myself.
I wonder now as the coal miners, and postal workers of the past have done the benefits of forming an organised IT union for developers, technicians, etc.
Imagine the effect of a one day strike in any country by an IT union.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679734</id>
	<title>Perhaps...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262807940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Every year, the news comes out that US workers are some of the most productive, and every year their productivity rises....</p><p>Yet actual wages have stagnated, and even retreated since the 1970s.</p><p>Perhaps the days of a free lunch are over, and companies are gonna have to start compensating people appropriately for their work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Every year , the news comes out that US workers are some of the most productive , and every year their productivity rises....Yet actual wages have stagnated , and even retreated since the 1970s.Perhaps the days of a free lunch are over , and companies are gon na have to start compensating people appropriately for their work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Every year, the news comes out that US workers are some of the most productive, and every year their productivity rises....Yet actual wages have stagnated, and even retreated since the 1970s.Perhaps the days of a free lunch are over, and companies are gonna have to start compensating people appropriately for their work.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30682974</id>
	<title>Re:Of course we're dissatisfied</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262882340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, things are starting to change here and there.  I think IT workers are getting sick of being treated as galley slaves:<br><a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BF4SZ20091216" title="reuters.com" rel="nofollow">Workers suing for overtime</a> [reuters.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , things are starting to change here and there .
I think IT workers are getting sick of being treated as galley slaves : Workers suing for overtime [ reuters.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, things are starting to change here and there.
I think IT workers are getting sick of being treated as galley slaves:Workers suing for overtime [reuters.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679956</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30684892</id>
	<title>Re:Of course we're dissatisfied</title>
	<author>ZZartin</author>
	<datestamp>1262889720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>No wonder the workers are dissatisfied. (And this is just one of the ways many IT workers are treated poorly.)</p></div><p>This is very true, from what I've seen IT workers usually have insanely high expectations put on them compared to any other department.  I'd love to know how many companies expect their sales team to have a 99.9\% success rate like they expect from their IT department.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>No wonder the workers are dissatisfied .
( And this is just one of the ways many IT workers are treated poorly .
) This is very true , from what I 've seen IT workers usually have insanely high expectations put on them compared to any other department .
I 'd love to know how many companies expect their sales team to have a 99.9 \ % success rate like they expect from their IT department .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No wonder the workers are dissatisfied.
(And this is just one of the ways many IT workers are treated poorly.
)This is very true, from what I've seen IT workers usually have insanely high expectations put on them compared to any other department.
I'd love to know how many companies expect their sales team to have a 99.9\% success rate like they expect from their IT department.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679956</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680566</id>
	<title>Re:When you get down to it, it's pretty monotanous</title>
	<author>Whiteox</author>
	<datestamp>1262864220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Sitting in front of a terminal all day doing graphics is not an "IT" job! Come on, let's get our terms straight. Look it up.<br>Being a full-time programmer is also not "IT". IT means being a systems administrator or analyst (or tech).</p></div><p>Sort of agree. 'IT' aka <i>Information Technology</i> is an umbrella term originating in the early 1980's covering a swathe of job descriptions and specialities to do with computers and communication.<br>A 'computer operator' (pre-1985) would be certainly be classified IT but nowadays anyone operating a computer cannot be called IT. They are just skilled at operating a computer.<br>It would be interesting to create a generic non-IT list:</p><p>- webdesign<br>- graphics<br>- programmer</p><p>all fall into the non-IT classification, but know their systems and processes well and have more knowledge than the typical front-liner who is definitely classified IT.</p><p>I think the definition has changed over the past 20 years, but no-one mentioned it to the masses.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sitting in front of a terminal all day doing graphics is not an " IT " job !
Come on , let 's get our terms straight .
Look it up.Being a full-time programmer is also not " IT " .
IT means being a systems administrator or analyst ( or tech ) .Sort of agree .
'IT ' aka Information Technology is an umbrella term originating in the early 1980 's covering a swathe of job descriptions and specialities to do with computers and communication.A 'computer operator ' ( pre-1985 ) would be certainly be classified IT but nowadays anyone operating a computer can not be called IT .
They are just skilled at operating a computer.It would be interesting to create a generic non-IT list : - webdesign- graphics- programmerall fall into the non-IT classification , but know their systems and processes well and have more knowledge than the typical front-liner who is definitely classified IT.I think the definition has changed over the past 20 years , but no-one mentioned it to the masses .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sitting in front of a terminal all day doing graphics is not an "IT" job!
Come on, let's get our terms straight.
Look it up.Being a full-time programmer is also not "IT".
IT means being a systems administrator or analyst (or tech).Sort of agree.
'IT' aka Information Technology is an umbrella term originating in the early 1980's covering a swathe of job descriptions and specialities to do with computers and communication.A 'computer operator' (pre-1985) would be certainly be classified IT but nowadays anyone operating a computer cannot be called IT.
They are just skilled at operating a computer.It would be interesting to create a generic non-IT list:- webdesign- graphics- programmerall fall into the non-IT classification, but know their systems and processes well and have more knowledge than the typical front-liner who is definitely classified IT.I think the definition has changed over the past 20 years, but no-one mentioned it to the masses.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679864</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30692272</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262947680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is there a co-responding  change in the way managers are hired and their ultimate goals ?<br>It seems to me that many coal-face people are not happy but that they are being driven insane<br>by managers making decisions that are close to insanity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is there a co-responding change in the way managers are hired and their ultimate goals ? It seems to me that many coal-face people are not happy but that they are being driven insaneby managers making decisions that are close to insanity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is there a co-responding  change in the way managers are hired and their ultimate goals ?It seems to me that many coal-face people are not happy but that they are being driven insaneby managers making decisions that are close to insanity.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679688</id>
	<title>Re:No more working for the man</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262807340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Been there done that. It's thrilling trying to go out on your own into the wild blue yonder of a startup, but the failure rate is high, it requires being good at wearing multiple hats, and it's not for people with mortgages to pay.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Been there done that .
It 's thrilling trying to go out on your own into the wild blue yonder of a startup , but the failure rate is high , it requires being good at wearing multiple hats , and it 's not for people with mortgages to pay .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Been there done that.
It's thrilling trying to go out on your own into the wild blue yonder of a startup, but the failure rate is high, it requires being good at wearing multiple hats, and it's not for people with mortgages to pay.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679546</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30683280</id>
	<title>Its because...</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1262883540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The economic crisis, has made sure of this fact.</p><p>&gt;put in extra hours to solve a problem, make suggestions for improving processes,<br>&gt;and generally seek to play a key role in an organization</p><p>Why would I put more into a company, which does not pay bonuses anymore, even though they are making the highest profits ever, they use the crisis as an excuse not to pay bonuses or overtime that are due. Seriously, it's not just my company, but it is a global pandemic for the IT departments everywhere. As well, because of this, they place less importance on the IT budget, so when you do suggest something that might cost money, they say "not this year, or that's something we don't really need", even though it might save them more money in the long run.</p><p>Anyways, being a key role in the company does not happen unless they want you to become that key role. If they tend to keep you where you are, the only way to improve or move up is leave for another company.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The economic crisis , has made sure of this fact. &gt; put in extra hours to solve a problem , make suggestions for improving processes , &gt; and generally seek to play a key role in an organizationWhy would I put more into a company , which does not pay bonuses anymore , even though they are making the highest profits ever , they use the crisis as an excuse not to pay bonuses or overtime that are due .
Seriously , it 's not just my company , but it is a global pandemic for the IT departments everywhere .
As well , because of this , they place less importance on the IT budget , so when you do suggest something that might cost money , they say " not this year , or that 's something we do n't really need " , even though it might save them more money in the long run.Anyways , being a key role in the company does not happen unless they want you to become that key role .
If they tend to keep you where you are , the only way to improve or move up is leave for another company .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The economic crisis, has made sure of this fact.&gt;put in extra hours to solve a problem, make suggestions for improving processes,&gt;and generally seek to play a key role in an organizationWhy would I put more into a company, which does not pay bonuses anymore, even though they are making the highest profits ever, they use the crisis as an excuse not to pay bonuses or overtime that are due.
Seriously, it's not just my company, but it is a global pandemic for the IT departments everywhere.
As well, because of this, they place less importance on the IT budget, so when you do suggest something that might cost money, they say "not this year, or that's something we don't really need", even though it might save them more money in the long run.Anyways, being a key role in the company does not happen unless they want you to become that key role.
If they tend to keep you where you are, the only way to improve or move up is leave for another company.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680588</id>
	<title>Re:Of course we're dissatisfied</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262864400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>From TFA, referring to the employees who regularly work lots of extra hours to make things work: <i>"'These are literally the most critical employees,' said Jaime Capella, a managing director in CEB's information technology practice. Moreover, such critical workers are 2.5 times more likely than the average employee to be looking for new opportunities."</i> Well, duh. But the article's author writes this in a tone of surprise.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>From TFA , referring to the employees who regularly work lots of extra hours to make things work : " 'These are literally the most critical employees, ' said Jaime Capella , a managing director in CEB 's information technology practice .
Moreover , such critical workers are 2.5 times more likely than the average employee to be looking for new opportunities .
" Well , duh .
But the article 's author writes this in a tone of surprise .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From TFA, referring to the employees who regularly work lots of extra hours to make things work: "'These are literally the most critical employees,' said Jaime Capella, a managing director in CEB's information technology practice.
Moreover, such critical workers are 2.5 times more likely than the average employee to be looking for new opportunities.
" Well, duh.
But the article's author writes this in a tone of surprise.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679956</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680352</id>
	<title>Re:Perhaps...</title>
	<author>TheWizardTim</author>
	<datestamp>1262860980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You would think that companies would have to pay appropriately for the jobs done, but wait! In the 80s the current man in charge granted amnesty to illegal working. Thus increasing the available worker pool, and lowering wages. Then the government started a war on unions. About 25\% of the workforce in the US was unionized. One of the functions is to limit access to jobs, decreasing the supply of qualified workers, thus increasing the wages. With a decrease in unionized jobs the worker pool increased and lowered wages. Then someone realized that people in India speak pretty good English. Why pay an American a good wage to take calls when you can pay someone in India a lot less? Thus increasing the available worker pool, and lowering wages. Then in the 90s we passed a trade agreement that opened the borders around the world for large companies. Now it was easy to offshore jobs to other countries, and import the goods back in to the US. Why pay an American a good wage to make a thing when you can pay someone in China to make it for 10 times less?  Thus increasing the available worker pool, and lowering wages.</p><p>How do we solve this? Get corporate and union money out of politics. Have publicly financed elections. Get out of the WTO. End NAFTA. Enact the Free Choice Act. Make things in the US. Charge a lot of money to import things made outside of the US.</p><p>Go after companies that higher illegal works. Put the CEO and head of HR in jail.  If the supply of jobs for illegal works goes away, then the illegal workers will go away too. Right now we go after the workers. That does not help.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You would think that companies would have to pay appropriately for the jobs done , but wait !
In the 80s the current man in charge granted amnesty to illegal working .
Thus increasing the available worker pool , and lowering wages .
Then the government started a war on unions .
About 25 \ % of the workforce in the US was unionized .
One of the functions is to limit access to jobs , decreasing the supply of qualified workers , thus increasing the wages .
With a decrease in unionized jobs the worker pool increased and lowered wages .
Then someone realized that people in India speak pretty good English .
Why pay an American a good wage to take calls when you can pay someone in India a lot less ?
Thus increasing the available worker pool , and lowering wages .
Then in the 90s we passed a trade agreement that opened the borders around the world for large companies .
Now it was easy to offshore jobs to other countries , and import the goods back in to the US .
Why pay an American a good wage to make a thing when you can pay someone in China to make it for 10 times less ?
Thus increasing the available worker pool , and lowering wages.How do we solve this ?
Get corporate and union money out of politics .
Have publicly financed elections .
Get out of the WTO .
End NAFTA .
Enact the Free Choice Act .
Make things in the US .
Charge a lot of money to import things made outside of the US.Go after companies that higher illegal works .
Put the CEO and head of HR in jail .
If the supply of jobs for illegal works goes away , then the illegal workers will go away too .
Right now we go after the workers .
That does not help .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You would think that companies would have to pay appropriately for the jobs done, but wait!
In the 80s the current man in charge granted amnesty to illegal working.
Thus increasing the available worker pool, and lowering wages.
Then the government started a war on unions.
About 25\% of the workforce in the US was unionized.
One of the functions is to limit access to jobs, decreasing the supply of qualified workers, thus increasing the wages.
With a decrease in unionized jobs the worker pool increased and lowered wages.
Then someone realized that people in India speak pretty good English.
Why pay an American a good wage to take calls when you can pay someone in India a lot less?
Thus increasing the available worker pool, and lowering wages.
Then in the 90s we passed a trade agreement that opened the borders around the world for large companies.
Now it was easy to offshore jobs to other countries, and import the goods back in to the US.
Why pay an American a good wage to make a thing when you can pay someone in China to make it for 10 times less?
Thus increasing the available worker pool, and lowering wages.How do we solve this?
Get corporate and union money out of politics.
Have publicly financed elections.
Get out of the WTO.
End NAFTA.
Enact the Free Choice Act.
Make things in the US.
Charge a lot of money to import things made outside of the US.Go after companies that higher illegal works.
Put the CEO and head of HR in jail.
If the supply of jobs for illegal works goes away, then the illegal workers will go away too.
Right now we go after the workers.
That does not help.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679664</id>
	<title>When you get down to it, it's pretty monotanous...</title>
	<author>PhantomHarlock</author>
	<datestamp>1262807040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think people are just waking up to the fact that the actual work is largely just drudgery, after you get past all the hype of being a part of the 'computer age'.   I gave up all work associated with sitting a desk all day and changed my direction.   And I was doing something ostensibly interesting for a living, computer animation at an A-list production facility.  But in the end it was sitting at a computer in a dark room for at least 10 hours a day.  After I turned 30 I lost my taste for it.   The output was great, the process not fun.   I'm much happier doing various tasks in a multi-hatted job in a very interesting field.   Syousef has a good point about shifting priorities as you get older, and that's why IT is largely a young person's job.  It's something you do to gain experience, then move up or on to something else.   We are lucky in America to have that kind of choice, given enough self initiative.   If you don't like your job, do something else.   As a white collar worker you generally have that choice if you're willing and capable of learning a new skill set.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think people are just waking up to the fact that the actual work is largely just drudgery , after you get past all the hype of being a part of the 'computer age' .
I gave up all work associated with sitting a desk all day and changed my direction .
And I was doing something ostensibly interesting for a living , computer animation at an A-list production facility .
But in the end it was sitting at a computer in a dark room for at least 10 hours a day .
After I turned 30 I lost my taste for it .
The output was great , the process not fun .
I 'm much happier doing various tasks in a multi-hatted job in a very interesting field .
Syousef has a good point about shifting priorities as you get older , and that 's why IT is largely a young person 's job .
It 's something you do to gain experience , then move up or on to something else .
We are lucky in America to have that kind of choice , given enough self initiative .
If you do n't like your job , do something else .
As a white collar worker you generally have that choice if you 're willing and capable of learning a new skill set .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think people are just waking up to the fact that the actual work is largely just drudgery, after you get past all the hype of being a part of the 'computer age'.
I gave up all work associated with sitting a desk all day and changed my direction.
And I was doing something ostensibly interesting for a living, computer animation at an A-list production facility.
But in the end it was sitting at a computer in a dark room for at least 10 hours a day.
After I turned 30 I lost my taste for it.
The output was great, the process not fun.
I'm much happier doing various tasks in a multi-hatted job in a very interesting field.
Syousef has a good point about shifting priorities as you get older, and that's why IT is largely a young person's job.
It's something you do to gain experience, then move up or on to something else.
We are lucky in America to have that kind of choice, given enough self initiative.
If you don't like your job, do something else.
As a white collar worker you generally have that choice if you're willing and capable of learning a new skill set.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679922</id>
	<title>Re:Perhaps...</title>
	<author>Jane Q. Public</author>
	<datestamp>1262896800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Imagine that you are a sizable corporation that relies heavily on road vehicles. You are likely to have your own automobile mechanics (a whole repair/maintenance department) on salary. And if you have half a brain, you let the mechanics do their jobs... you don't stand over them, arguing about how to tweak a carburetor.
<br> <br>
But if you were a typical sizable corporation over the last decade or so, you also had your own IT department, and thought nothing of demanding the equivalent of a Lamborghini, as of yesterday, for the cost of a Volkswagen... and at the same time paid the IT pro less than your senior mechanics.
<br> <br>
That kind of situation cannot last forever. Sooner or later companies will learn that this is loser behavior.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Imagine that you are a sizable corporation that relies heavily on road vehicles .
You are likely to have your own automobile mechanics ( a whole repair/maintenance department ) on salary .
And if you have half a brain , you let the mechanics do their jobs... you do n't stand over them , arguing about how to tweak a carburetor .
But if you were a typical sizable corporation over the last decade or so , you also had your own IT department , and thought nothing of demanding the equivalent of a Lamborghini , as of yesterday , for the cost of a Volkswagen... and at the same time paid the IT pro less than your senior mechanics .
That kind of situation can not last forever .
Sooner or later companies will learn that this is loser behavior .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Imagine that you are a sizable corporation that relies heavily on road vehicles.
You are likely to have your own automobile mechanics (a whole repair/maintenance department) on salary.
And if you have half a brain, you let the mechanics do their jobs... you don't stand over them, arguing about how to tweak a carburetor.
But if you were a typical sizable corporation over the last decade or so, you also had your own IT department, and thought nothing of demanding the equivalent of a Lamborghini, as of yesterday, for the cost of a Volkswagen... and at the same time paid the IT pro less than your senior mechanics.
That kind of situation cannot last forever.
Sooner or later companies will learn that this is loser behavior.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679864</id>
	<title>Re:When you get down to it, it's pretty monotanous</title>
	<author>Jane Q. Public</author>
	<datestamp>1262895960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Sitting in front of a terminal all day doing graphics is not an "IT" job! Come on, let's get our terms straight. Look it up.
<br> <br>
Being a full-time programmer is also not "IT". IT means being a systems administrator or analyst (or tech). And I should know: I have done both. Even so, I still agree with the sentiment offered. IT is not the most fun or challenging job I have ever had.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sitting in front of a terminal all day doing graphics is not an " IT " job !
Come on , let 's get our terms straight .
Look it up .
Being a full-time programmer is also not " IT " .
IT means being a systems administrator or analyst ( or tech ) .
And I should know : I have done both .
Even so , I still agree with the sentiment offered .
IT is not the most fun or challenging job I have ever had .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sitting in front of a terminal all day doing graphics is not an "IT" job!
Come on, let's get our terms straight.
Look it up.
Being a full-time programmer is also not "IT".
IT means being a systems administrator or analyst (or tech).
And I should know: I have done both.
Even so, I still agree with the sentiment offered.
IT is not the most fun or challenging job I have ever had.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681472</id>
	<title>Re:It's because the view of IT is changing</title>
	<author>Civil\_Disobedient</author>
	<datestamp>1262874540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's the same story in the construction industry.  Anybody can pick up a hammer and drill and call themselves a contractor, but the proof is, as they say, in the pudding.  Find a guy that's been doing it for twenty years with a record of success behind him, that's the guy I don't mind throwing a lot of money at because I trust they'll get the job done.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's the same story in the construction industry .
Anybody can pick up a hammer and drill and call themselves a contractor , but the proof is , as they say , in the pudding .
Find a guy that 's been doing it for twenty years with a record of success behind him , that 's the guy I do n't mind throwing a lot of money at because I trust they 'll get the job done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's the same story in the construction industry.
Anybody can pick up a hammer and drill and call themselves a contractor, but the proof is, as they say, in the pudding.
Find a guy that's been doing it for twenty years with a record of success behind him, that's the guy I don't mind throwing a lot of money at because I trust they'll get the job done.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30679704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30681158</id>
	<title>It is no longer your "father's" IT business</title>
	<author>axafg00b</author>
	<datestamp>1262871960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A decade ago, I went from a university where I had built the network and helped move the campus into the information age to a business where the entire IT staff was outsourced since the business thought it would help them manage their costs. Couple that with the increase in government oversight and regulation (SOX, HIPAA), and now IT means spending more time writing process documents and less time working on the things that attracted bright people to the business. Ed Yourdon saw this coming in his book "The Decline and Fall of the American Programmer", but the same precepts apply across the board. If your function is thought to be a commodity, then business will find a lower cost provider than you. If (as others have mentioned) your IT functions are not seen as a strategic asset, then IT becomes a commodity automatically - something you have to have like lights, plumbing, power, garbage collection.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A decade ago , I went from a university where I had built the network and helped move the campus into the information age to a business where the entire IT staff was outsourced since the business thought it would help them manage their costs .
Couple that with the increase in government oversight and regulation ( SOX , HIPAA ) , and now IT means spending more time writing process documents and less time working on the things that attracted bright people to the business .
Ed Yourdon saw this coming in his book " The Decline and Fall of the American Programmer " , but the same precepts apply across the board .
If your function is thought to be a commodity , then business will find a lower cost provider than you .
If ( as others have mentioned ) your IT functions are not seen as a strategic asset , then IT becomes a commodity automatically - something you have to have like lights , plumbing , power , garbage collection .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A decade ago, I went from a university where I had built the network and helped move the campus into the information age to a business where the entire IT staff was outsourced since the business thought it would help them manage their costs.
Couple that with the increase in government oversight and regulation (SOX, HIPAA), and now IT means spending more time writing process documents and less time working on the things that attracted bright people to the business.
Ed Yourdon saw this coming in his book "The Decline and Fall of the American Programmer", but the same precepts apply across the board.
If your function is thought to be a commodity, then business will find a lower cost provider than you.
If (as others have mentioned) your IT functions are not seen as a strategic asset, then IT becomes a commodity automatically - something you have to have like lights, plumbing, power, garbage collection.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30691370</id>
	<title>Re:Of course we're dissatisfied</title>
	<author>inKubus</author>
	<datestamp>1262892840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You gotta make a deal.  If you cash that check you are eliminating the chance to give it back and get a bigger one.  If you're not in a position to make a deal, you take the check.  It's that simple.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You got ta make a deal .
If you cash that check you are eliminating the chance to give it back and get a bigger one .
If you 're not in a position to make a deal , you take the check .
It 's that simple .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You gotta make a deal.
If you cash that check you are eliminating the chance to give it back and get a bigger one.
If you're not in a position to make a deal, you take the check.
It's that simple.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680410</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30684302</id>
	<title>Re:No more working for the man</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1262887320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work for a software company. IT here means "people who fix computers, printers, user accounts, and networks".</p><p>My 70 year old parents, on the other hand, refer to anything that uses a computer as IT.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work for a software company .
IT here means " people who fix computers , printers , user accounts , and networks " .My 70 year old parents , on the other hand , refer to anything that uses a computer as IT .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work for a software company.
IT here means "people who fix computers, printers, user accounts, and networks".My 70 year old parents, on the other hand, refer to anything that uses a computer as IT.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_07_0428245.30680276</parent>
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