<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_01_06_0035248</id>
	<title>Office Work Ethic In the IT Industry?</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1262772240000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>An anonymous reader writes <i>"As a recent graduate entering industry for the first time at a large software and hardware company, I have been shocked at what seems to be a low standard of work ethic and professionalism at my place of employment, especially in this poor economy. For example, at my company, the large majority of developers seem to each individually waste &mdash; no exaggeration &mdash; hours of time on the clock every day talking about football, making personal phone calls, gossiping, taking long lunches, or browsing the Internet (including, yes, Slashdot!). Even some of our subcontractors waste time in this manner. Being the 'new guy,' I get stuck with much of the weekend and after-hours grunt work when we inevitably miss deadlines or produce poor code. I'm not in any position to go around telling others to use their time more efficiently. Management seems to tolerate it. I would like to ask Slashdot what methods others have used to deal with office environments such as this. Is my situation unique or is it common across the industry?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>An anonymous reader writes " As a recent graduate entering industry for the first time at a large software and hardware company , I have been shocked at what seems to be a low standard of work ethic and professionalism at my place of employment , especially in this poor economy .
For example , at my company , the large majority of developers seem to each individually waste    no exaggeration    hours of time on the clock every day talking about football , making personal phone calls , gossiping , taking long lunches , or browsing the Internet ( including , yes , Slashdot ! ) .
Even some of our subcontractors waste time in this manner .
Being the 'new guy, ' I get stuck with much of the weekend and after-hours grunt work when we inevitably miss deadlines or produce poor code .
I 'm not in any position to go around telling others to use their time more efficiently .
Management seems to tolerate it .
I would like to ask Slashdot what methods others have used to deal with office environments such as this .
Is my situation unique or is it common across the industry ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An anonymous reader writes "As a recent graduate entering industry for the first time at a large software and hardware company, I have been shocked at what seems to be a low standard of work ethic and professionalism at my place of employment, especially in this poor economy.
For example, at my company, the large majority of developers seem to each individually waste — no exaggeration — hours of time on the clock every day talking about football, making personal phone calls, gossiping, taking long lunches, or browsing the Internet (including, yes, Slashdot!).
Even some of our subcontractors waste time in this manner.
Being the 'new guy,' I get stuck with much of the weekend and after-hours grunt work when we inevitably miss deadlines or produce poor code.
I'm not in any position to go around telling others to use their time more efficiently.
Management seems to tolerate it.
I would like to ask Slashdot what methods others have used to deal with office environments such as this.
Is my situation unique or is it common across the industry?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668796</id>
	<title>Network Engineer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262789580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would say that on some days I seem to browse the web 9 hours a day.  One day I decided to open a spreadsheet and track only the useful things I did for an entire week.  I have become so attuned to my job that what I found out surprised me.  In a 9 or 12 hour day (some go as long as 15 or 20 hours as I am judged by how well the networks I support work and yes I support more than a few).  I found that in a normal 50 hour easy week I was putting in 60 to 70 hours of good work.  The numbers may not add up but I know how long each task should take and how long I spend doing each task is not necessarily how long it should take.  This comes from skill and experience.  Translated those people there are probably highly skilled and know what they are doing so in the 20 to 30 hours of work they put in each week they are accomplishing a great deal more than you  even though you are putting in twice the hours.   I find that as my knowledge grows I am able to answer questions and troubleshoot issues that used to take me five or six hours in five or six minutes.  You get into the zone and it is amazing what you can accomplish.  I would say a networking professional who talks about football browses the web and still gets their 40 hour work load (note not 40 hours of work) is taking advantage of a hidden and well earned perk called experience.  Also being able to distract yourself and take a break does make you more effective.  I don't know why but when I focus on a task for 8 hours strait I end up making ridiculous mistakes and missing obvious solutions.  I begin to "nuke out the problem" or make the problem a thousand times more complicated than it is.  I will start pulling logs and traces and digging through RFC's and IEEE documentation to verify a certain protocol is working correctly, get frustrated and ask for help and have someone ask me (did you restart the jtapi service) and that will fix it. I think you probably get the point.</p><p>Cheers<br>Anonymous Coward</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would say that on some days I seem to browse the web 9 hours a day .
One day I decided to open a spreadsheet and track only the useful things I did for an entire week .
I have become so attuned to my job that what I found out surprised me .
In a 9 or 12 hour day ( some go as long as 15 or 20 hours as I am judged by how well the networks I support work and yes I support more than a few ) .
I found that in a normal 50 hour easy week I was putting in 60 to 70 hours of good work .
The numbers may not add up but I know how long each task should take and how long I spend doing each task is not necessarily how long it should take .
This comes from skill and experience .
Translated those people there are probably highly skilled and know what they are doing so in the 20 to 30 hours of work they put in each week they are accomplishing a great deal more than you even though you are putting in twice the hours .
I find that as my knowledge grows I am able to answer questions and troubleshoot issues that used to take me five or six hours in five or six minutes .
You get into the zone and it is amazing what you can accomplish .
I would say a networking professional who talks about football browses the web and still gets their 40 hour work load ( note not 40 hours of work ) is taking advantage of a hidden and well earned perk called experience .
Also being able to distract yourself and take a break does make you more effective .
I do n't know why but when I focus on a task for 8 hours strait I end up making ridiculous mistakes and missing obvious solutions .
I begin to " nuke out the problem " or make the problem a thousand times more complicated than it is .
I will start pulling logs and traces and digging through RFC 's and IEEE documentation to verify a certain protocol is working correctly , get frustrated and ask for help and have someone ask me ( did you restart the jtapi service ) and that will fix it .
I think you probably get the point.CheersAnonymous Coward</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would say that on some days I seem to browse the web 9 hours a day.
One day I decided to open a spreadsheet and track only the useful things I did for an entire week.
I have become so attuned to my job that what I found out surprised me.
In a 9 or 12 hour day (some go as long as 15 or 20 hours as I am judged by how well the networks I support work and yes I support more than a few).
I found that in a normal 50 hour easy week I was putting in 60 to 70 hours of good work.
The numbers may not add up but I know how long each task should take and how long I spend doing each task is not necessarily how long it should take.
This comes from skill and experience.
Translated those people there are probably highly skilled and know what they are doing so in the 20 to 30 hours of work they put in each week they are accomplishing a great deal more than you  even though you are putting in twice the hours.
I find that as my knowledge grows I am able to answer questions and troubleshoot issues that used to take me five or six hours in five or six minutes.
You get into the zone and it is amazing what you can accomplish.
I would say a networking professional who talks about football browses the web and still gets their 40 hour work load (note not 40 hours of work) is taking advantage of a hidden and well earned perk called experience.
Also being able to distract yourself and take a break does make you more effective.
I don't know why but when I focus on a task for 8 hours strait I end up making ridiculous mistakes and missing obvious solutions.
I begin to "nuke out the problem" or make the problem a thousand times more complicated than it is.
I will start pulling logs and traces and digging through RFC's and IEEE documentation to verify a certain protocol is working correctly, get frustrated and ask for help and have someone ask me (did you restart the jtapi service) and that will fix it.
I think you probably get the point.CheersAnonymous Coward</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667754</id>
	<title>persepctive</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262780640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>hey our senators are playing solitare.... , that is when they actually show up. What job actually works non-stop for 8 hours, very few, cops take breaks, I have seen doctors relaxing,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>hey our senators are playing solitare.... , that is when they actually show up .
What job actually works non-stop for 8 hours , very few , cops take breaks , I have seen doctors relaxing , ... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>hey our senators are playing solitare.... , that is when they actually show up.
What job actually works non-stop for 8 hours, very few, cops take breaks, I have seen doctors relaxing, ....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668726</id>
	<title>IT vs. factory</title>
	<author>thewiz</author>
	<datestamp>1262789040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're entering the Information Technology field, not a factory to produce widgets.<br>IT requires creative thinking and, in my experience, creativity comes when you <b>think</b> and create a solution to a problem.<br>The next stage is <b>implementing</b> the solution via coding, building, or other processes.</p><p>What you seem to be expecting is everyone bent over their keyboard, hammering away at the keys, for 8 straight hours a day.  That's the mentality of someone who works on an assembly line.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're entering the Information Technology field , not a factory to produce widgets.IT requires creative thinking and , in my experience , creativity comes when you think and create a solution to a problem.The next stage is implementing the solution via coding , building , or other processes.What you seem to be expecting is everyone bent over their keyboard , hammering away at the keys , for 8 straight hours a day .
That 's the mentality of someone who works on an assembly line .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're entering the Information Technology field, not a factory to produce widgets.IT requires creative thinking and, in my experience, creativity comes when you think and create a solution to a problem.The next stage is implementing the solution via coding, building, or other processes.What you seem to be expecting is everyone bent over their keyboard, hammering away at the keys, for 8 straight hours a day.
That's the mentality of someone who works on an assembly line.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30678926</id>
	<title>Re:Hang Gliding while being paid to write code...</title>
	<author>electrons\_are\_brave</author>
	<datestamp>1262797860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>To the poster of the question. The basic rule when entering any new group is "fit in". Don't work too much harder than those around you. Don't work too much less.
<p> If you start a new job and try to start "fixing" people, they will hate you. If the workplace doesn't suit you, then get another job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To the poster of the question .
The basic rule when entering any new group is " fit in " .
Do n't work too much harder than those around you .
Do n't work too much less .
If you start a new job and try to start " fixing " people , they will hate you .
If the workplace does n't suit you , then get another job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To the poster of the question.
The basic rule when entering any new group is "fit in".
Don't work too much harder than those around you.
Don't work too much less.
If you start a new job and try to start "fixing" people, they will hate you.
If the workplace doesn't suit you, then get another job.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669772</id>
	<title>Leave well enough alone...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262794680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work at a competing software company.  We're diligent and enjoy our work and all of us put in more then 7 productive hours a day.  We'll be succeeding while your company is failing.  I will keep my job and thrive, your company will tank.</p><p>They deserve it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work at a competing software company .
We 're diligent and enjoy our work and all of us put in more then 7 productive hours a day .
We 'll be succeeding while your company is failing .
I will keep my job and thrive , your company will tank.They deserve it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work at a competing software company.
We're diligent and enjoy our work and all of us put in more then 7 productive hours a day.
We'll be succeeding while your company is failing.
I will keep my job and thrive, your company will tank.They deserve it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668918</id>
	<title>Lazy bastards -Offshore is going to eat your lunch</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262790240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No wonder folks in India and China are taking all the IT jobs from Americans and Western Europeans - just this kind of attitude of entitlement.</p><p>Work means work, you lazy bastards, not get paid 75K per year to surf and play games.  You get paid 20X as much as someone in another country with skills that are easily transferable and as good or better than yours</p><p>Good luck finding jobs in the next 10 years.  Now get to work!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No wonder folks in India and China are taking all the IT jobs from Americans and Western Europeans - just this kind of attitude of entitlement.Work means work , you lazy bastards , not get paid 75K per year to surf and play games .
You get paid 20X as much as someone in another country with skills that are easily transferable and as good or better than yoursGood luck finding jobs in the next 10 years .
Now get to work !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No wonder folks in India and China are taking all the IT jobs from Americans and Western Europeans - just this kind of attitude of entitlement.Work means work, you lazy bastards, not get paid 75K per year to surf and play games.
You get paid 20X as much as someone in another country with skills that are easily transferable and as good or better than yoursGood luck finding jobs in the next 10 years.
Now get to work!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669150</id>
	<title>Just manage yourself, and let it go at that.</title>
	<author>jonadab</author>
	<datestamp>1262791620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you're not the manager, you probably shouldn't try to manage your coworkers, especially if they've got more seniority than you do.  It's not your place.<br><br>You *should* continue, for your own part, to do what you know is right, i.e., to put in an honest day's work for your pay.  This is your duty, since you are being paid for your time.<br><br>As for the others, that's between them and their superiors.<br><br>If it really bothers you, to the point where you don't like the work environment, you could consider looking for work elsewhere.  I know, jobs are a little hard to find right now, but they *are* out there.  Furthermore you aren't on a tight deadline, since you do already have a job that you can continue to work ad interim, so if it takes a few extra months to find the job you're looking for, that's no big disaster.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 're not the manager , you probably should n't try to manage your coworkers , especially if they 've got more seniority than you do .
It 's not your place.You * should * continue , for your own part , to do what you know is right , i.e. , to put in an honest day 's work for your pay .
This is your duty , since you are being paid for your time.As for the others , that 's between them and their superiors.If it really bothers you , to the point where you do n't like the work environment , you could consider looking for work elsewhere .
I know , jobs are a little hard to find right now , but they * are * out there .
Furthermore you are n't on a tight deadline , since you do already have a job that you can continue to work ad interim , so if it takes a few extra months to find the job you 're looking for , that 's no big disaster .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you're not the manager, you probably shouldn't try to manage your coworkers, especially if they've got more seniority than you do.
It's not your place.You *should* continue, for your own part, to do what you know is right, i.e., to put in an honest day's work for your pay.
This is your duty, since you are being paid for your time.As for the others, that's between them and their superiors.If it really bothers you, to the point where you don't like the work environment, you could consider looking for work elsewhere.
I know, jobs are a little hard to find right now, but they *are* out there.
Furthermore you aren't on a tight deadline, since you do already have a job that you can continue to work ad interim, so if it takes a few extra months to find the job you're looking for, that's no big disaster.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30674778</id>
	<title>Re:Why are you asking us?</title>
	<author>frank\_adrian314159</author>
	<datestamp>1262771940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Ask the people at your workplace.</i>.. and then we'll all laugh ourselves silly while they beat you with a baseball bat.  The first rule of Non-productivity Club is that you don't talk about Non-productivity Club.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ask the people at your workplace... and then we 'll all laugh ourselves silly while they beat you with a baseball bat .
The first rule of Non-productivity Club is that you do n't talk about Non-productivity Club .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ask the people at your workplace... and then we'll all laugh ourselves silly while they beat you with a baseball bat.
The first rule of Non-productivity Club is that you don't talk about Non-productivity Club.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668112</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669492</id>
	<title>Take it from an old timer</title>
	<author>Atrox666</author>
	<datestamp>1262793240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I used to kill myself. Work my ass off. I accepted excuses as to why I couldn't get a raise or a promotion even though I was told I earned one. People I learned were making big bonuses were telling me there was no money for bonuses. Then the excuses started to pile up year after year and I watched other people who worked less and had less responsibility get paid more because they were not IT. I watched it happen to all my co-workers too so I know it wasn't something I was doing. So if I can't get paid more I just give less. I'm naturally a hard worker so I had to train myself but now I'm happy to say I am taking advantage of the fucking parasites who were ever so happy to take advantage of me. It's not a good relationship or the one I would have chosen but at least I'm no longer the bitch. I'd type more but I got in late so it's almost time for my coffee break.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I used to kill myself .
Work my ass off .
I accepted excuses as to why I could n't get a raise or a promotion even though I was told I earned one .
People I learned were making big bonuses were telling me there was no money for bonuses .
Then the excuses started to pile up year after year and I watched other people who worked less and had less responsibility get paid more because they were not IT .
I watched it happen to all my co-workers too so I know it was n't something I was doing .
So if I ca n't get paid more I just give less .
I 'm naturally a hard worker so I had to train myself but now I 'm happy to say I am taking advantage of the fucking parasites who were ever so happy to take advantage of me .
It 's not a good relationship or the one I would have chosen but at least I 'm no longer the bitch .
I 'd type more but I got in late so it 's almost time for my coffee break .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used to kill myself.
Work my ass off.
I accepted excuses as to why I couldn't get a raise or a promotion even though I was told I earned one.
People I learned were making big bonuses were telling me there was no money for bonuses.
Then the excuses started to pile up year after year and I watched other people who worked less and had less responsibility get paid more because they were not IT.
I watched it happen to all my co-workers too so I know it wasn't something I was doing.
So if I can't get paid more I just give less.
I'm naturally a hard worker so I had to train myself but now I'm happy to say I am taking advantage of the fucking parasites who were ever so happy to take advantage of me.
It's not a good relationship or the one I would have chosen but at least I'm no longer the bitch.
I'd type more but I got in late so it's almost time for my coffee break.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669266</id>
	<title>pretty par for the course</title>
	<author>buddyglass</author>
	<datestamp>1262792160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would have to say that's pretty typical.  There's a tendency among developers (and humans in general) to do only what is expected of them.  If I can meet my deadlines while doing only 4 actual hours of work in a day, then that's probably what I'm going to do, so long as its not so obvious that I get nailed for it.  I'm not saying that's a good thing, necessarily, but its human nature.</p><p>The flip side is that if you're someone with sufficient discipline to actually do productive work the entire time you're at the office, and if you're reasonably skilled, then you should shine like a superstar compared to everyone else, which should theoretically translate into pay raises, promotions, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would have to say that 's pretty typical .
There 's a tendency among developers ( and humans in general ) to do only what is expected of them .
If I can meet my deadlines while doing only 4 actual hours of work in a day , then that 's probably what I 'm going to do , so long as its not so obvious that I get nailed for it .
I 'm not saying that 's a good thing , necessarily , but its human nature.The flip side is that if you 're someone with sufficient discipline to actually do productive work the entire time you 're at the office , and if you 're reasonably skilled , then you should shine like a superstar compared to everyone else , which should theoretically translate into pay raises , promotions , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would have to say that's pretty typical.
There's a tendency among developers (and humans in general) to do only what is expected of them.
If I can meet my deadlines while doing only 4 actual hours of work in a day, then that's probably what I'm going to do, so long as its not so obvious that I get nailed for it.
I'm not saying that's a good thing, necessarily, but its human nature.The flip side is that if you're someone with sufficient discipline to actually do productive work the entire time you're at the office, and if you're reasonably skilled, then you should shine like a superstar compared to everyone else, which should theoretically translate into pay raises, promotions, etc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30680524</id>
	<title>Get over yourself</title>
	<author>tstrike</author>
	<datestamp>1262863440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You know I hate do-gooders straight from college..

Remember this:

1. Your degree confers NO certification of experience. You are simply a Padawan learner sitting at the feet of your Jedi Knight and Jedi Master colleagues.
2. Forget your college learning and instead be a sponge.
3. IT requires a combination of liberal arts and science. It is abstract in its beginnings and concrete in its scientific application.is
4. IT management is different than Software Development/Engineering... You require more time and distractions to think a problem through.. You cannot be at full go all the time, you will burn the fuck out.
5. You should spend the first 3 years of your life reading publications and listening to webcasts.
6. Your co-workers involved in water cooler talk means that they are human, try it sometime you might like it.
7. Mind your own damn business... No one likes a cubicle porcupine... And STOP Snitching!! That will get you alienated quickly and I can assure you it will get you fired.
8. Remember young Padawan the path to the Dark Side... See Yoda for more details.. or your resident Master Jedi in your office.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You know I hate do-gooders straight from college. . Remember this : 1 .
Your degree confers NO certification of experience .
You are simply a Padawan learner sitting at the feet of your Jedi Knight and Jedi Master colleagues .
2. Forget your college learning and instead be a sponge .
3. IT requires a combination of liberal arts and science .
It is abstract in its beginnings and concrete in its scientific application.is 4 .
IT management is different than Software Development/Engineering... You require more time and distractions to think a problem through.. You can not be at full go all the time , you will burn the fuck out .
5. You should spend the first 3 years of your life reading publications and listening to webcasts .
6. Your co-workers involved in water cooler talk means that they are human , try it sometime you might like it .
7. Mind your own damn business... No one likes a cubicle porcupine... And STOP Snitching ! !
That will get you alienated quickly and I can assure you it will get you fired .
8. Remember young Padawan the path to the Dark Side... See Yoda for more details.. or your resident Master Jedi in your office .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know I hate do-gooders straight from college..

Remember this:

1.
Your degree confers NO certification of experience.
You are simply a Padawan learner sitting at the feet of your Jedi Knight and Jedi Master colleagues.
2. Forget your college learning and instead be a sponge.
3. IT requires a combination of liberal arts and science.
It is abstract in its beginnings and concrete in its scientific application.is
4.
IT management is different than Software Development/Engineering... You require more time and distractions to think a problem through.. You cannot be at full go all the time, you will burn the fuck out.
5. You should spend the first 3 years of your life reading publications and listening to webcasts.
6. Your co-workers involved in water cooler talk means that they are human, try it sometime you might like it.
7. Mind your own damn business... No one likes a cubicle porcupine... And STOP Snitching!!
That will get you alienated quickly and I can assure you it will get you fired.
8. Remember young Padawan the path to the Dark Side... See Yoda for more details.. or your resident Master Jedi in your office.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669950</id>
	<title>Re:Don't worry about it</title>
	<author>Quiet\_Desperation</author>
	<datestamp>1262795400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You probably already know that life is not fair and some people seem to get all the breaks. Life is not fair. Take it on the chin. Play the cards you have in your hand.</p></div><p>But if the opportunity to ascend to supervillany appears, strike!</p><p>Strike, young man, be heard, and have the masses cower before you!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You probably already know that life is not fair and some people seem to get all the breaks .
Life is not fair .
Take it on the chin .
Play the cards you have in your hand.But if the opportunity to ascend to supervillany appears , strike ! Strike , young man , be heard , and have the masses cower before you !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You probably already know that life is not fair and some people seem to get all the breaks.
Life is not fair.
Take it on the chin.
Play the cards you have in your hand.But if the opportunity to ascend to supervillany appears, strike!Strike, young man, be heard, and have the masses cower before you!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667764</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668528</id>
	<title>Concentrate on your own habits not your fellows...</title>
	<author>stink\_eye</author>
	<datestamp>1262787840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>You called it!
<br>
<br>
 'You are in no position to comment, being the new guy.'  Although it will be of practically no use telling you this here it is. (I was just as bad in my opening days of corperate employment, and after 15 years in the workforce am only just coming to this conclusion) :
<br>
<br>
  Working hard for your corperate overlords is an excercise in futility, a waste of time akin trying to keep small children and pets amused and content for long periods of time or trying to staunch a sucking chest wound with a paper towel...  An ultimately useless and never-ending chore.
<br>
<br>
  Unlike small children and pets these cogs in the corporate machine will keeping sucking the life and productivity out of you until your 'career' becomes a war of attrition to keep providing more justification for your existence in their machine.  When you eventually and inevitably fail at that, your career will be chalked up as unnecessary overhead and your job will be shipped to the next person (or continent) that will do your job cheaper even if less effectively.
<br>
<br>
  Concentrate on honing your own skills and becoming competent in your craft so that when that time comes you can either start your own business, or move onto another job...
<br>
<br>
  Working hard for other people  is at this point an excercise in futility because corporate entities no longer have loyalty to their people but to an ideal of a pursuing a profit at any cost for as long as it takes them to sell and get out, or until mismanagement and egotism drives it under before it can meet that end.
<br>
<br>
  Serve yourself first, work only as hard as is necessary to keep yourself fed and sheltered. Spend less time observing others work habitats and start examining why they act the way they do. Hone your skills and grow your own opportunities.  Once it becomes even marginally hard to do that move on as fast as you can.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You called it !
'You are in no position to comment , being the new guy .
' Although it will be of practically no use telling you this here it is .
( I was just as bad in my opening days of corperate employment , and after 15 years in the workforce am only just coming to this conclusion ) : Working hard for your corperate overlords is an excercise in futility , a waste of time akin trying to keep small children and pets amused and content for long periods of time or trying to staunch a sucking chest wound with a paper towel... An ultimately useless and never-ending chore .
Unlike small children and pets these cogs in the corporate machine will keeping sucking the life and productivity out of you until your 'career ' becomes a war of attrition to keep providing more justification for your existence in their machine .
When you eventually and inevitably fail at that , your career will be chalked up as unnecessary overhead and your job will be shipped to the next person ( or continent ) that will do your job cheaper even if less effectively .
Concentrate on honing your own skills and becoming competent in your craft so that when that time comes you can either start your own business , or move onto another job.. . Working hard for other people is at this point an excercise in futility because corporate entities no longer have loyalty to their people but to an ideal of a pursuing a profit at any cost for as long as it takes them to sell and get out , or until mismanagement and egotism drives it under before it can meet that end .
Serve yourself first , work only as hard as is necessary to keep yourself fed and sheltered .
Spend less time observing others work habitats and start examining why they act the way they do .
Hone your skills and grow your own opportunities .
Once it becomes even marginally hard to do that move on as fast as you can .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You called it!
'You are in no position to comment, being the new guy.
'  Although it will be of practically no use telling you this here it is.
(I was just as bad in my opening days of corperate employment, and after 15 years in the workforce am only just coming to this conclusion) :


  Working hard for your corperate overlords is an excercise in futility, a waste of time akin trying to keep small children and pets amused and content for long periods of time or trying to staunch a sucking chest wound with a paper towel...  An ultimately useless and never-ending chore.
Unlike small children and pets these cogs in the corporate machine will keeping sucking the life and productivity out of you until your 'career' becomes a war of attrition to keep providing more justification for your existence in their machine.
When you eventually and inevitably fail at that, your career will be chalked up as unnecessary overhead and your job will be shipped to the next person (or continent) that will do your job cheaper even if less effectively.
Concentrate on honing your own skills and becoming competent in your craft so that when that time comes you can either start your own business, or move onto another job...


  Working hard for other people  is at this point an excercise in futility because corporate entities no longer have loyalty to their people but to an ideal of a pursuing a profit at any cost for as long as it takes them to sell and get out, or until mismanagement and egotism drives it under before it can meet that end.
Serve yourself first, work only as hard as is necessary to keep yourself fed and sheltered.
Spend less time observing others work habitats and start examining why they act the way they do.
Hone your skills and grow your own opportunities.
Once it becomes even marginally hard to do that move on as fast as you can.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30703834</id>
	<title>Re:Hang Gliding while being paid to write code...</title>
	<author>couchslug</author>
	<datestamp>1262965800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Organizations (not just companies) got so large that a manager could take actions adversely affecting thousands of anonymous employees with impunity."</p><p>Before WWII, managers and other company leadership took "adverse actions" such as hiring gunmen to kill union activists and strikers. Let's not get too dewy-eyed about "work ethics" often driven by desperation and coerced by threat and force.</p><p><a href="http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nchist-newcentury/5168" title="learnnc.org">http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nchist-newcentury/5168</a> [learnnc.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Organizations ( not just companies ) got so large that a manager could take actions adversely affecting thousands of anonymous employees with impunity .
" Before WWII , managers and other company leadership took " adverse actions " such as hiring gunmen to kill union activists and strikers .
Let 's not get too dewy-eyed about " work ethics " often driven by desperation and coerced by threat and force.http : //www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nchist-newcentury/5168 [ learnnc.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Organizations (not just companies) got so large that a manager could take actions adversely affecting thousands of anonymous employees with impunity.
"Before WWII, managers and other company leadership took "adverse actions" such as hiring gunmen to kill union activists and strikers.
Let's not get too dewy-eyed about "work ethics" often driven by desperation and coerced by threat and force.http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nchist-newcentury/5168 [learnnc.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30695872</id>
	<title>Not Really Your Job</title>
	<author>MikeDawg</author>
	<datestamp>1262971500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Its not really your job to rate other peoples work.  It also sucks that you have to come in and finish their work.  You can simply make the comment to your supervisor/manager, and let them handle it.  If they choose not to respond, then it truly isn't a concern for them, and they are happy with the current work-levels.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Its not really your job to rate other peoples work .
It also sucks that you have to come in and finish their work .
You can simply make the comment to your supervisor/manager , and let them handle it .
If they choose not to respond , then it truly is n't a concern for them , and they are happy with the current work-levels .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Its not really your job to rate other peoples work.
It also sucks that you have to come in and finish their work.
You can simply make the comment to your supervisor/manager, and let them handle it.
If they choose not to respond, then it truly isn't a concern for them, and they are happy with the current work-levels.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668160</id>
	<title>Re:Peter.... how's it going?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262784900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's why I'll take my signals at work from Thomas Anderson (Neo) rather than Peter.   Remember when Neo gets that call from Morpheus that allows him to escape the cubicle farm?  Peter Gibbons should have taken THAT call.<br>Come to think of it, can you imagine a mashup mix of "Office Space" and "The Matrix"...that would be awesome!  Lumbergh could team up with Agent Smith.  Lawrence (Peter's next door neighbor) could make inappropriate remarks about Trinity's boobs at various times to break the tension.... I'd pay money to see THAT movie over Avatar any day!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's why I 'll take my signals at work from Thomas Anderson ( Neo ) rather than Peter .
Remember when Neo gets that call from Morpheus that allows him to escape the cubicle farm ?
Peter Gibbons should have taken THAT call.Come to think of it , can you imagine a mashup mix of " Office Space " and " The Matrix " ...that would be awesome !
Lumbergh could team up with Agent Smith .
Lawrence ( Peter 's next door neighbor ) could make inappropriate remarks about Trinity 's boobs at various times to break the tension.... I 'd pay money to see THAT movie over Avatar any day !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's why I'll take my signals at work from Thomas Anderson (Neo) rather than Peter.
Remember when Neo gets that call from Morpheus that allows him to escape the cubicle farm?
Peter Gibbons should have taken THAT call.Come to think of it, can you imagine a mashup mix of "Office Space" and "The Matrix"...that would be awesome!
Lumbergh could team up with Agent Smith.
Lawrence (Peter's next door neighbor) could make inappropriate remarks about Trinity's boobs at various times to break the tension.... I'd pay money to see THAT movie over Avatar any day!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667330</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667906</id>
	<title>Looking a gift horse in the mouth...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262782320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Keep in mind, this is probably why you have a job there at all. Do you think they would have hired you if everyone else was working at ~twice their current capacity?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Keep in mind , this is probably why you have a job there at all .
Do you think they would have hired you if everyone else was working at ~ twice their current capacity ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Keep in mind, this is probably why you have a job there at all.
Do you think they would have hired you if everyone else was working at ~twice their current capacity?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668208</id>
	<title>missed deadlines?! that is interesting</title>
	<author>RalphSouth</author>
	<datestamp>1262785320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think it is a lot more significant when you talk about missed deadlines.  If you are doing a lot of that in your are, then something is not right.  It is not unusual for people presented with tough problems to take a break and then come back with a new perspective.  Missing deadlines means that people are not estimating their work correctly and not taking those esitmates seriously.</p><p>In the end your leadership is responsible.  Have a serious talk with your boss.  Make it positive and ask about his/her relationship to the total work of your area.  Find out how you fit in, the history of the group, and what the career posibilities are.  Couched this way, you will perhaps get a clue as to what is going on.  If you've diagnosed a true problem and no one is interested in fixing it, you might want to be looking for a company that will be in business the next couple of years--your current one may not be around.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think it is a lot more significant when you talk about missed deadlines .
If you are doing a lot of that in your are , then something is not right .
It is not unusual for people presented with tough problems to take a break and then come back with a new perspective .
Missing deadlines means that people are not estimating their work correctly and not taking those esitmates seriously.In the end your leadership is responsible .
Have a serious talk with your boss .
Make it positive and ask about his/her relationship to the total work of your area .
Find out how you fit in , the history of the group , and what the career posibilities are .
Couched this way , you will perhaps get a clue as to what is going on .
If you 've diagnosed a true problem and no one is interested in fixing it , you might want to be looking for a company that will be in business the next couple of years--your current one may not be around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think it is a lot more significant when you talk about missed deadlines.
If you are doing a lot of that in your are, then something is not right.
It is not unusual for people presented with tough problems to take a break and then come back with a new perspective.
Missing deadlines means that people are not estimating their work correctly and not taking those esitmates seriously.In the end your leadership is responsible.
Have a serious talk with your boss.
Make it positive and ask about his/her relationship to the total work of your area.
Find out how you fit in, the history of the group, and what the career posibilities are.
Couched this way, you will perhaps get a clue as to what is going on.
If you've diagnosed a true problem and no one is interested in fixing it, you might want to be looking for a company that will be in business the next couple of years--your current one may not be around.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667646</id>
	<title>Adapt or leave</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262779320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm largely with the OP, and that after some 15 years of professional experience. Developers have made an art form of making everybody else believe that they're working on stuff that's incredibly complex, and thus best solved while playing pool or surfing the web. I've seen dudes submit estimates of several days for jobs I *knew* couldn't take them more than a few hours. I've seen differences in productivity between individuals of at least an order of magnitude, which weren't recognized/rewarded/sanctioned by management. After trying to rock the boat a few times I've concluded that this is an issue of corporate culture, and unless you are Alpha enough to take on everyone's entrenched attitudes, you can either pull everyone else's weight, you can adapt and use the "spare" time to your advantage, or you can find another place that suits you better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm largely with the OP , and that after some 15 years of professional experience .
Developers have made an art form of making everybody else believe that they 're working on stuff that 's incredibly complex , and thus best solved while playing pool or surfing the web .
I 've seen dudes submit estimates of several days for jobs I * knew * could n't take them more than a few hours .
I 've seen differences in productivity between individuals of at least an order of magnitude , which were n't recognized/rewarded/sanctioned by management .
After trying to rock the boat a few times I 've concluded that this is an issue of corporate culture , and unless you are Alpha enough to take on everyone 's entrenched attitudes , you can either pull everyone else 's weight , you can adapt and use the " spare " time to your advantage , or you can find another place that suits you better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm largely with the OP, and that after some 15 years of professional experience.
Developers have made an art form of making everybody else believe that they're working on stuff that's incredibly complex, and thus best solved while playing pool or surfing the web.
I've seen dudes submit estimates of several days for jobs I *knew* couldn't take them more than a few hours.
I've seen differences in productivity between individuals of at least an order of magnitude, which weren't recognized/rewarded/sanctioned by management.
After trying to rock the boat a few times I've concluded that this is an issue of corporate culture, and unless you are Alpha enough to take on everyone's entrenched attitudes, you can either pull everyone else's weight, you can adapt and use the "spare" time to your advantage, or you can find another place that suits you better.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30675172</id>
	<title>Two Things</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262773740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's rare that an entire team or department would be a bunch of useless slackers. The problems is usually 1 of these 2 issues:</p><p>1) There are several useless slackers on the team and the others were once like you who worked hard and took up the slack, but they got the same pay, bonuses and raises as the useless guys, so they gave up.</p><p>2) Management has put increasing pressure on the team with unreachable deadlines, changing requirements, and random punishments so the team finally realized that whether they work hard or don't work, the same thing is going to happen, so they're going to take what they can in terms of time off and time out.</p><p>The work ethic at my company is excellent so that anyone who slacks off stands out like a sore thumb.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's rare that an entire team or department would be a bunch of useless slackers .
The problems is usually 1 of these 2 issues : 1 ) There are several useless slackers on the team and the others were once like you who worked hard and took up the slack , but they got the same pay , bonuses and raises as the useless guys , so they gave up.2 ) Management has put increasing pressure on the team with unreachable deadlines , changing requirements , and random punishments so the team finally realized that whether they work hard or do n't work , the same thing is going to happen , so they 're going to take what they can in terms of time off and time out.The work ethic at my company is excellent so that anyone who slacks off stands out like a sore thumb .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's rare that an entire team or department would be a bunch of useless slackers.
The problems is usually 1 of these 2 issues:1) There are several useless slackers on the team and the others were once like you who worked hard and took up the slack, but they got the same pay, bonuses and raises as the useless guys, so they gave up.2) Management has put increasing pressure on the team with unreachable deadlines, changing requirements, and random punishments so the team finally realized that whether they work hard or don't work, the same thing is going to happen, so they're going to take what they can in terms of time off and time out.The work ethic at my company is excellent so that anyone who slacks off stands out like a sore thumb.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30672134</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262803500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You know, my best advice to this guy is to go look for another job.</p><p>The last company I worked for where people exhibited this sort of behavior (and called it "stress relief") went under about 18 months later.</p><p>The only organizations that can get away with being unproductive over the long run are governmental in nature.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You know , my best advice to this guy is to go look for another job.The last company I worked for where people exhibited this sort of behavior ( and called it " stress relief " ) went under about 18 months later.The only organizations that can get away with being unproductive over the long run are governmental in nature .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know, my best advice to this guy is to go look for another job.The last company I worked for where people exhibited this sort of behavior (and called it "stress relief") went under about 18 months later.The only organizations that can get away with being unproductive over the long run are governmental in nature.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667632</id>
	<title>As a long time freelancer in IT ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262779200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... and having worked in at least 12 different companies by now, i can tell you that:</p><p>a) It depends on the company - company culture, profit margins and the business the company are in all make for more or less hectic enviroments in the IT areas (and others).<br>b) It depends on the morale of the employees. Recessions actually mean that there are more unmotivated workers around since many which would otherwise left will stay put until "the storm passes".<br>c) It the depends on the point of the development cycle you are on. For all you know, a week before you joined people were over-stressed and working long hours to make a release and now they are in the decompression period before a new major project is started.</p><p>Also and to put it plainly: as a recent graduate you know <b>nothing</b> working in IT.</p><p>Let me break this too you now before you learn it the hard way:</p><ul><li>You'll have to <b>un</b>learn a lot before you're a proper professional</li><li>Activity is not the same as Productivity. To give you an easy to understand example: if a guy is breaking stone in a quarry with a hammer the whole day without stopping, he still vastly underproduces the guy that does it for 2 hours with a jackhammer and then loafs about the rest of the day. Working smart always beats working hard.</li><li>If you're really good, people will take advantage of your innocence, ignorance and eagerness to overwork you to death. The funny bit is that, because you have no real professional experience (and due to overwork), you will make all the mistakes in the book and somebody (maybe you yourself) will inherit a POS that they will have to fix.</li></ul></htmltext>
<tokenext>... and having worked in at least 12 different companies by now , i can tell you that : a ) It depends on the company - company culture , profit margins and the business the company are in all make for more or less hectic enviroments in the IT areas ( and others ) .b ) It depends on the morale of the employees .
Recessions actually mean that there are more unmotivated workers around since many which would otherwise left will stay put until " the storm passes " .c ) It the depends on the point of the development cycle you are on .
For all you know , a week before you joined people were over-stressed and working long hours to make a release and now they are in the decompression period before a new major project is started.Also and to put it plainly : as a recent graduate you know nothing working in IT.Let me break this too you now before you learn it the hard way : You 'll have to unlearn a lot before you 're a proper professionalActivity is not the same as Productivity .
To give you an easy to understand example : if a guy is breaking stone in a quarry with a hammer the whole day without stopping , he still vastly underproduces the guy that does it for 2 hours with a jackhammer and then loafs about the rest of the day .
Working smart always beats working hard.If you 're really good , people will take advantage of your innocence , ignorance and eagerness to overwork you to death .
The funny bit is that , because you have no real professional experience ( and due to overwork ) , you will make all the mistakes in the book and somebody ( maybe you yourself ) will inherit a POS that they will have to fix .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... and having worked in at least 12 different companies by now, i can tell you that:a) It depends on the company - company culture, profit margins and the business the company are in all make for more or less hectic enviroments in the IT areas (and others).b) It depends on the morale of the employees.
Recessions actually mean that there are more unmotivated workers around since many which would otherwise left will stay put until "the storm passes".c) It the depends on the point of the development cycle you are on.
For all you know, a week before you joined people were over-stressed and working long hours to make a release and now they are in the decompression period before a new major project is started.Also and to put it plainly: as a recent graduate you know nothing working in IT.Let me break this too you now before you learn it the hard way:You'll have to unlearn a lot before you're a proper professionalActivity is not the same as Productivity.
To give you an easy to understand example: if a guy is breaking stone in a quarry with a hammer the whole day without stopping, he still vastly underproduces the guy that does it for 2 hours with a jackhammer and then loafs about the rest of the day.
Working smart always beats working hard.If you're really good, people will take advantage of your innocence, ignorance and eagerness to overwork you to death.
The funny bit is that, because you have no real professional experience (and due to overwork), you will make all the mistakes in the book and somebody (maybe you yourself) will inherit a POS that they will have to fix.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668286</id>
	<title>You'll change</title>
	<author>thetoadwarrior</author>
	<datestamp>1262785980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Everyone is enthusiastic right out of school and they want to work at full throttle. Then you'll reach a point where you realise the company isn't going to shower you with praise, money and promotions and possibly will keep you stuck in your position since you're doing that job better than anyone else.
<br> <br>
That is when your soul is destroyed and you end up like the other guys. It's not necessarily a bad thing as there is more to life than work. It is though, naive people like yourself, that causes ageism in IT. Younger people need to realise sooner that they're being taken advantage of and not accept it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Everyone is enthusiastic right out of school and they want to work at full throttle .
Then you 'll reach a point where you realise the company is n't going to shower you with praise , money and promotions and possibly will keep you stuck in your position since you 're doing that job better than anyone else .
That is when your soul is destroyed and you end up like the other guys .
It 's not necessarily a bad thing as there is more to life than work .
It is though , naive people like yourself , that causes ageism in IT .
Younger people need to realise sooner that they 're being taken advantage of and not accept it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Everyone is enthusiastic right out of school and they want to work at full throttle.
Then you'll reach a point where you realise the company isn't going to shower you with praise, money and promotions and possibly will keep you stuck in your position since you're doing that job better than anyone else.
That is when your soul is destroyed and you end up like the other guys.
It's not necessarily a bad thing as there is more to life than work.
It is though, naive people like yourself, that causes ageism in IT.
Younger people need to realise sooner that they're being taken advantage of and not accept it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668842</id>
	<title>Re:Why are you asking us?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262789880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You spend a lot of time cooking meals and reading magazines and keeping yourself and your equipment fit, and then at disaster time you and your equipment are supposed to go all out with skills and \_plans\_ to fix things and recover data.</p></div><p>Disaster time would happen a lot less if people buckled down and did their jobs better. I hate being dragged into other people's engineering failures when this happens.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You spend a lot of time cooking meals and reading magazines and keeping yourself and your equipment fit , and then at disaster time you and your equipment are supposed to go all out with skills and \ _plans \ _ to fix things and recover data.Disaster time would happen a lot less if people buckled down and did their jobs better .
I hate being dragged into other people 's engineering failures when this happens .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You spend a lot of time cooking meals and reading magazines and keeping yourself and your equipment fit, and then at disaster time you and your equipment are supposed to go all out with skills and \_plans\_ to fix things and recover data.Disaster time would happen a lot less if people buckled down and did their jobs better.
I hate being dragged into other people's engineering failures when this happens.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668112</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667746</id>
	<title>What what what?</title>
	<author>AbRASiON</author>
	<datestamp>1262780520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You sure you've chosen the right profession? Sounds to me like you want to be in management, you'll fit right in.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You sure you 've chosen the right profession ?
Sounds to me like you want to be in management , you 'll fit right in .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You sure you've chosen the right profession?
Sounds to me like you want to be in management, you'll fit right in.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667970</id>
	<title>Google</title>
	<author>JASP2</author>
	<datestamp>1262782860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Doesn't Google encourage this sort of happy go lucky environment?  Did they start tanking and I wasn't aware of it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Does n't Google encourage this sort of happy go lucky environment ?
Did they start tanking and I was n't aware of it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Doesn't Google encourage this sort of happy go lucky environment?
Did they start tanking and I wasn't aware of it?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670638</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262797740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So true, but honestly, its not the programmers' fault, as such - they're just getting away with what their engineering management lets them get away with, often because they're not real managers, but jumped-up lazy-ass programmers who buy into the same lame "we're creative, don't make us work!" excuse sets chronicled above.</p><p>My company (or at least, my part of it) has decent engineering management; consistently missed deadlines and crap code means the lazy-assed programmers would be gone within six months.</p><p>Make your deadlines, write code that isn't crap, and THEN screw around on company time all you like - otherwise you're just making excuses for ripping off the guys who pay you a decent wage for WORKING, not screwing around.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So true , but honestly , its not the programmers ' fault , as such - they 're just getting away with what their engineering management lets them get away with , often because they 're not real managers , but jumped-up lazy-ass programmers who buy into the same lame " we 're creative , do n't make us work !
" excuse sets chronicled above.My company ( or at least , my part of it ) has decent engineering management ; consistently missed deadlines and crap code means the lazy-assed programmers would be gone within six months.Make your deadlines , write code that is n't crap , and THEN screw around on company time all you like - otherwise you 're just making excuses for ripping off the guys who pay you a decent wage for WORKING , not screwing around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So true, but honestly, its not the programmers' fault, as such - they're just getting away with what their engineering management lets them get away with, often because they're not real managers, but jumped-up lazy-ass programmers who buy into the same lame "we're creative, don't make us work!
" excuse sets chronicled above.My company (or at least, my part of it) has decent engineering management; consistently missed deadlines and crap code means the lazy-assed programmers would be gone within six months.Make your deadlines, write code that isn't crap, and THEN screw around on company time all you like - otherwise you're just making excuses for ripping off the guys who pay you a decent wage for WORKING, not screwing around.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30679820</id>
	<title>ewok85</title>
	<author>ewok85</author>
	<datestamp>1262895300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What I see as the biggest issue facing IT is that too little of the management out there is savvy enough to be able to manage all aspects - managing people, budgets, tasks and technology.

Every single day I see insane decisions made which ultimately waste time, money and materials. If you want a reason why people have no work ethic, its because they know they know that the people making the decisions have already doomed everyone to failure.</htmltext>
<tokenext>What I see as the biggest issue facing IT is that too little of the management out there is savvy enough to be able to manage all aspects - managing people , budgets , tasks and technology .
Every single day I see insane decisions made which ultimately waste time , money and materials .
If you want a reason why people have no work ethic , its because they know they know that the people making the decisions have already doomed everyone to failure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What I see as the biggest issue facing IT is that too little of the management out there is savvy enough to be able to manage all aspects - managing people, budgets, tasks and technology.
Every single day I see insane decisions made which ultimately waste time, money and materials.
If you want a reason why people have no work ethic, its because they know they know that the people making the decisions have already doomed everyone to failure.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30701930</id>
	<title>Re:Comparison</title>
	<author>guy5000</author>
	<datestamp>1262953980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is why it's important not to focus just on the course material when in school knowing more methods then presented on the textbooks you used can be very useful. Reading about your field in general can be quite informative.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is why it 's important not to focus just on the course material when in school knowing more methods then presented on the textbooks you used can be very useful .
Reading about your field in general can be quite informative .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is why it's important not to focus just on the course material when in school knowing more methods then presented on the textbooks you used can be very useful.
Reading about your field in general can be quite informative.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30671708</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670304</id>
	<title>Re:Hang Gliding while being paid to write code...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262796600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The other problem is that the work ethic has slipped off quite a bit</p></div><p>The work ethic has been slipping since WW2 ended.  Organizations (not just companies) got so large that a manager could take actions adversely affecting thousands of anonymous employees with impunity.  As managers  were rewarded for these actions, others copied and amplified their actions.  In the 70s, the phrase became popular, "Don't love your company because it can't love you back."  This is true; the only time to love an organization is if it has fewer than ~150 people.  Any larger and it becomes impossible for a person to know everyone, meaning that it's impossible to care about everyone.  Since the 70s, the process has only accelerated.  To chose just one example, Bernie Madoff was, by all accounts, a decent man.  The only people he swindled were strangers, so he tried to protect his family and friends as things fell apart.  Had he only been allowed to invest the money of his friends, I doubt he would have even started his scheme.  As it is obvious that the people at the top don't care about the people at the bottom, the people at the bottom have reciprocated.  No one cases about doing a good job, just about doing whatever's needed to avoid getting fired.</p><p>On a more positive note, there was a recent TED Talk about new social organizations starting to emerge.  The speaker (I can't find the talk via Google right now) was mostly discussing NGOs, but his remarks also apply to Open Source and other movements.  New organizations are being created that are remaining small and tightly focused.  The membership is committed to their organization's ideals, and everyone in the organization knows everyone else well enough that no one can hide misbehavior.  Because of this, these new organizations are able to accomplish things (humanitarian or coding) that larger ones cannot.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The other problem is that the work ethic has slipped off quite a bitThe work ethic has been slipping since WW2 ended .
Organizations ( not just companies ) got so large that a manager could take actions adversely affecting thousands of anonymous employees with impunity .
As managers were rewarded for these actions , others copied and amplified their actions .
In the 70s , the phrase became popular , " Do n't love your company because it ca n't love you back .
" This is true ; the only time to love an organization is if it has fewer than ~ 150 people .
Any larger and it becomes impossible for a person to know everyone , meaning that it 's impossible to care about everyone .
Since the 70s , the process has only accelerated .
To chose just one example , Bernie Madoff was , by all accounts , a decent man .
The only people he swindled were strangers , so he tried to protect his family and friends as things fell apart .
Had he only been allowed to invest the money of his friends , I doubt he would have even started his scheme .
As it is obvious that the people at the top do n't care about the people at the bottom , the people at the bottom have reciprocated .
No one cases about doing a good job , just about doing whatever 's needed to avoid getting fired.On a more positive note , there was a recent TED Talk about new social organizations starting to emerge .
The speaker ( I ca n't find the talk via Google right now ) was mostly discussing NGOs , but his remarks also apply to Open Source and other movements .
New organizations are being created that are remaining small and tightly focused .
The membership is committed to their organization 's ideals , and everyone in the organization knows everyone else well enough that no one can hide misbehavior .
Because of this , these new organizations are able to accomplish things ( humanitarian or coding ) that larger ones can not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The other problem is that the work ethic has slipped off quite a bitThe work ethic has been slipping since WW2 ended.
Organizations (not just companies) got so large that a manager could take actions adversely affecting thousands of anonymous employees with impunity.
As managers  were rewarded for these actions, others copied and amplified their actions.
In the 70s, the phrase became popular, "Don't love your company because it can't love you back.
"  This is true; the only time to love an organization is if it has fewer than ~150 people.
Any larger and it becomes impossible for a person to know everyone, meaning that it's impossible to care about everyone.
Since the 70s, the process has only accelerated.
To chose just one example, Bernie Madoff was, by all accounts, a decent man.
The only people he swindled were strangers, so he tried to protect his family and friends as things fell apart.
Had he only been allowed to invest the money of his friends, I doubt he would have even started his scheme.
As it is obvious that the people at the top don't care about the people at the bottom, the people at the bottom have reciprocated.
No one cases about doing a good job, just about doing whatever's needed to avoid getting fired.On a more positive note, there was a recent TED Talk about new social organizations starting to emerge.
The speaker (I can't find the talk via Google right now) was mostly discussing NGOs, but his remarks also apply to Open Source and other movements.
New organizations are being created that are remaining small and tightly focused.
The membership is committed to their organization's ideals, and everyone in the organization knows everyone else well enough that no one can hide misbehavior.
Because of this, these new organizations are able to accomplish things (humanitarian or coding) that larger ones cannot.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30672656</id>
	<title>It's normal</title>
	<author>blueforce</author>
	<datestamp>1262805660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Is my situation unique or is it common across the industry?</p></div><p>It's normal. We like it. Now shut up before you fuck it all up for the rest of us.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is my situation unique or is it common across the industry ? It 's normal .
We like it .
Now shut up before you fuck it all up for the rest of us .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is my situation unique or is it common across the industry?It's normal.
We like it.
Now shut up before you fuck it all up for the rest of us.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667980</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262783040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work. Everybody works hard. There's nothing special about coding.  My workday include tasks that are both physically and mentally taxing, I often juggle several tasks at once and am held to a very high standard of quality. Man up, buckle down and produce because you don't work in a vacuum.</p></div><p>Computer programs are about the most complex things we create as humans. Even smallish programs have tens of thousands of statements, each unique in its context. You do not state your job, but I doubt your quality requirements are as high and as unforgiving as those for code. If the syntax of a piece of code is wrong it <em>will not compile</em>. If there is some other error, this will likely show up during testing, or, worse, during deployment. I'm doing design document reviews all of the time, and I'm considered fairly strict. But the documents I pass are not nearly as complex and not nearly as error-free as code that passed even mediocre testing procedures. Have you ever written anything where a single misplaced semicolon can break the whole document in bad bad non-obvious ways? Or where every paragraph is manually cross-referenced with at least two more? That's is routine complexity for code...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work .
Everybody works hard .
There 's nothing special about coding .
My workday include tasks that are both physically and mentally taxing , I often juggle several tasks at once and am held to a very high standard of quality .
Man up , buckle down and produce because you do n't work in a vacuum.Computer programs are about the most complex things we create as humans .
Even smallish programs have tens of thousands of statements , each unique in its context .
You do not state your job , but I doubt your quality requirements are as high and as unforgiving as those for code .
If the syntax of a piece of code is wrong it will not compile .
If there is some other error , this will likely show up during testing , or , worse , during deployment .
I 'm doing design document reviews all of the time , and I 'm considered fairly strict .
But the documents I pass are not nearly as complex and not nearly as error-free as code that passed even mediocre testing procedures .
Have you ever written anything where a single misplaced semicolon can break the whole document in bad bad non-obvious ways ?
Or where every paragraph is manually cross-referenced with at least two more ?
That 's is routine complexity for code.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work.
Everybody works hard.
There's nothing special about coding.
My workday include tasks that are both physically and mentally taxing, I often juggle several tasks at once and am held to a very high standard of quality.
Man up, buckle down and produce because you don't work in a vacuum.Computer programs are about the most complex things we create as humans.
Even smallish programs have tens of thousands of statements, each unique in its context.
You do not state your job, but I doubt your quality requirements are as high and as unforgiving as those for code.
If the syntax of a piece of code is wrong it will not compile.
If there is some other error, this will likely show up during testing, or, worse, during deployment.
I'm doing design document reviews all of the time, and I'm considered fairly strict.
But the documents I pass are not nearly as complex and not nearly as error-free as code that passed even mediocre testing procedures.
Have you ever written anything where a single misplaced semicolon can break the whole document in bad bad non-obvious ways?
Or where every paragraph is manually cross-referenced with at least two more?
That's is routine complexity for code...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668692</id>
	<title>Peopleware</title>
	<author>lwriemen</author>
	<datestamp>1262788860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Read Peopleware by DeMarco and Lister, and then take another look at your workplace.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Read Peopleware by DeMarco and Lister , and then take another look at your workplace .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Read Peopleware by DeMarco and Lister, and then take another look at your workplace.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667498</id>
	<title>Michael J.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262777760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I guess its fairly apparent that some of your coworkers have stumbled upon this article.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess its fairly apparent that some of your coworkers have stumbled upon this article .
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess its fairly apparent that some of your coworkers have stumbled upon this article.
;)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667608</id>
	<title>As Morpheus once said...</title>
	<author>mingle</author>
	<datestamp>1262778840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Welcome to the world... of the real. (IT industry, that is!)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Welcome to the world... of the real .
( IT industry , that is !
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Welcome to the world... of the real.
(IT industry, that is!
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668238</id>
	<title>It is the same in every industry...</title>
	<author>Assmasher</author>
	<datestamp>1262785560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...to greater and lesser degrees.  You will always find yourself, if you work for companies larger than 10 people in size, noticing that there are people who simply clock their time and those who actually work - regardless of whether this is in IT or at a law firm or even a hospital.  Even companies of 10 or less can have unmotivated employees who are only there for the paycheck and have no interest in actually accomplishing anything.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; One of the reasons people strive to work at companies like Google, Microsoft, Apple, startups, and any other company that makes employment challenging, is the opportunity to be on teams that are motivated.  Teams where you can learn something not only from what you end up producing, but from each other, and even (on rare occasions) from your management.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; If you find yourself working someplace where people just jerk around all day you should realize a few things, first that management likely doesn't understand the projects or people they are managing so they're either just PHBs (pointy haired bosses) or nice versions of the PHB.  If that wasn't the case, they would certainly not put up with that sort of behavior - it would be in their best interests to keep costs down and get rid of dead wood.  Second, that unless you're division/department is not the primary revenue generator for your company, you should worry; because, your management doesn't know how to manage engineers, and your engineers don't seem to give a sh**.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; If you're as junior as you seem to be, I would recommend that you learn what you can at this job and move on.  Save up a few grand in the bank, keep your personal costs low (ignore that 'bimmer' you've always wanted), and find a startup or other small company that makes software.  It is like being paid to attend graduate school for engineering/marketing/business usually with other highly motivated people.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Good luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...to greater and lesser degrees .
You will always find yourself , if you work for companies larger than 10 people in size , noticing that there are people who simply clock their time and those who actually work - regardless of whether this is in IT or at a law firm or even a hospital .
Even companies of 10 or less can have unmotivated employees who are only there for the paycheck and have no interest in actually accomplishing anything .
          One of the reasons people strive to work at companies like Google , Microsoft , Apple , startups , and any other company that makes employment challenging , is the opportunity to be on teams that are motivated .
Teams where you can learn something not only from what you end up producing , but from each other , and even ( on rare occasions ) from your management .
          If you find yourself working someplace where people just jerk around all day you should realize a few things , first that management likely does n't understand the projects or people they are managing so they 're either just PHBs ( pointy haired bosses ) or nice versions of the PHB .
If that was n't the case , they would certainly not put up with that sort of behavior - it would be in their best interests to keep costs down and get rid of dead wood .
Second , that unless you 're division/department is not the primary revenue generator for your company , you should worry ; because , your management does n't know how to manage engineers , and your engineers do n't seem to give a sh * * .
          If you 're as junior as you seem to be , I would recommend that you learn what you can at this job and move on .
Save up a few grand in the bank , keep your personal costs low ( ignore that 'bimmer ' you 've always wanted ) , and find a startup or other small company that makes software .
It is like being paid to attend graduate school for engineering/marketing/business usually with other highly motivated people .
          Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...to greater and lesser degrees.
You will always find yourself, if you work for companies larger than 10 people in size, noticing that there are people who simply clock their time and those who actually work - regardless of whether this is in IT or at a law firm or even a hospital.
Even companies of 10 or less can have unmotivated employees who are only there for the paycheck and have no interest in actually accomplishing anything.
          One of the reasons people strive to work at companies like Google, Microsoft, Apple, startups, and any other company that makes employment challenging, is the opportunity to be on teams that are motivated.
Teams where you can learn something not only from what you end up producing, but from each other, and even (on rare occasions) from your management.
          If you find yourself working someplace where people just jerk around all day you should realize a few things, first that management likely doesn't understand the projects or people they are managing so they're either just PHBs (pointy haired bosses) or nice versions of the PHB.
If that wasn't the case, they would certainly not put up with that sort of behavior - it would be in their best interests to keep costs down and get rid of dead wood.
Second, that unless you're division/department is not the primary revenue generator for your company, you should worry; because, your management doesn't know how to manage engineers, and your engineers don't seem to give a sh**.
          If you're as junior as you seem to be, I would recommend that you learn what you can at this job and move on.
Save up a few grand in the bank, keep your personal costs low (ignore that 'bimmer' you've always wanted), and find a startup or other small company that makes software.
It is like being paid to attend graduate school for engineering/marketing/business usually with other highly motivated people.
          Good luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30672152</id>
	<title>Dilbert</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262803560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Have you read Dilbert yet? Don't laugh - its not funny.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Have you read Dilbert yet ?
Do n't laugh - its not funny .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have you read Dilbert yet?
Don't laugh - its not funny.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667588</id>
	<title>To be expected...</title>
	<author>achyuta</author>
	<datestamp>1262778600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>... in a large organization where the majority of the skill-set requirements is commoditized.

- The company finds the people expendable because most of the times the market has enough replacements - similar attitude grows amongst employees where there are enough companies out there to hire them if they cop a bad rating / demotion in a cycle.

- The company policies apply to huge sections of the employee base - as a result a wide range of work ethics / capability will get the same benefits. People won't be motivated to go the extra mile as they would still be in the same category. Often times, people in a higher category may lose faith as fundamentally, the grading systems in large comapnies struggle to reward justly.

If you want to find great / extreme work ethics, you should go to a start-up or an industry where the (talent  or hard work ) vs (requirement or pay) are more closely correlated .

I suggest you get out before the environment grows on you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>... in a large organization where the majority of the skill-set requirements is commoditized .
- The company finds the people expendable because most of the times the market has enough replacements - similar attitude grows amongst employees where there are enough companies out there to hire them if they cop a bad rating / demotion in a cycle .
- The company policies apply to huge sections of the employee base - as a result a wide range of work ethics / capability will get the same benefits .
People wo n't be motivated to go the extra mile as they would still be in the same category .
Often times , people in a higher category may lose faith as fundamentally , the grading systems in large comapnies struggle to reward justly .
If you want to find great / extreme work ethics , you should go to a start-up or an industry where the ( talent or hard work ) vs ( requirement or pay ) are more closely correlated .
I suggest you get out before the environment grows on you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... in a large organization where the majority of the skill-set requirements is commoditized.
- The company finds the people expendable because most of the times the market has enough replacements - similar attitude grows amongst employees where there are enough companies out there to hire them if they cop a bad rating / demotion in a cycle.
- The company policies apply to huge sections of the employee base - as a result a wide range of work ethics / capability will get the same benefits.
People won't be motivated to go the extra mile as they would still be in the same category.
Often times, people in a higher category may lose faith as fundamentally, the grading systems in large comapnies struggle to reward justly.
If you want to find great / extreme work ethics, you should go to a start-up or an industry where the (talent  or hard work ) vs (requirement or pay) are more closely correlated .
I suggest you get out before the environment grows on you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>aurispector</author>
	<datestamp>1262777940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You guys are a bunch of lazy assholes.  The guy even says they miss deadlines and the code they produce is crap.  Of course people rarely work full out for an entire day, but he's clearly describing a situation far worse than normal.  The organization obviously lacks leadership and focus because tolerance of this sort of behavior comes from the top.</p><p>Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work. Everybody works hard. There's nothing special about coding.  My workday include tasks that are both physically and mentally taxing, I often juggle several tasks at once and am held to a very high standard of quality. Man up, buckle down and produce because you don't work in a vacuum.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You guys are a bunch of lazy assholes .
The guy even says they miss deadlines and the code they produce is crap .
Of course people rarely work full out for an entire day , but he 's clearly describing a situation far worse than normal .
The organization obviously lacks leadership and focus because tolerance of this sort of behavior comes from the top.Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work .
Everybody works hard .
There 's nothing special about coding .
My workday include tasks that are both physically and mentally taxing , I often juggle several tasks at once and am held to a very high standard of quality .
Man up , buckle down and produce because you do n't work in a vacuum .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You guys are a bunch of lazy assholes.
The guy even says they miss deadlines and the code they produce is crap.
Of course people rarely work full out for an entire day, but he's clearly describing a situation far worse than normal.
The organization obviously lacks leadership and focus because tolerance of this sort of behavior comes from the top.Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work.
Everybody works hard.
There's nothing special about coding.
My workday include tasks that are both physically and mentally taxing, I often juggle several tasks at once and am held to a very high standard of quality.
Man up, buckle down and produce because you don't work in a vacuum.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667446</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668234</id>
	<title>Re:What what what?</title>
	<author>Culture20</author>
	<datestamp>1262785500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Sounds to me like you want to be in management, you'll fit right in.</p></div><p>His nose sure fits.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sounds to me like you want to be in management , you 'll fit right in.His nose sure fits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sounds to me like you want to be in management, you'll fit right in.His nose sure fits.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667746</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668562</id>
	<title>Well, it's easy street then.</title>
	<author>Usagi\_yo</author>
	<datestamp>1262788020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well first thought is why worry?  That's your competition there.  Sounds like easy street to me.<p>
Second thought is to tell you how it is.  Yes, you will find people sliding everywhere.  Keep your head about you and don't burn yourself out trying to outperform slackers.  Keeping a good work ethic yourself and working your pace and you will gravitate upwards.  You'll start getting all the cool projects and recognition you want.  Make sure your name is on everything you do.  Project Managers gravitate to those that meet deadlines with quality work, but not only that, they also like to see continuous progress.  Technical people who are always J.I.T with their milestones do not continuously put out top quality product.  This becomes evident during code, design and dependency reviews.  They might not say anything -- a good Propject Manager probably won't, or hint so obtusely that it goes right over the slackers head<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. but the others know.
</p><p>
Then, when times are lean and projects are scarce the slackers get culled from the herd.
</p><p>
Another thing, don't be so quick to assume that somebody is a slacker just because they don't work like you.  People do problem solve while doing other things and people do split their day with periods of intense concentration (planning, design, layout) with down and recuperative time (browsing, chatting, foosball).  It is understood for the most part that salaried people, particularly design and planning engineers generally think about their projects problems and dependencies quite a bit when not at work.
</p><p>
So, if you're new and starting out on the bottom rung of the ladder as a coder, coding somebody else's conceptual design or implementing their plans you are going to have a lot more hands on time at work then the more senior people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well first thought is why worry ?
That 's your competition there .
Sounds like easy street to me .
Second thought is to tell you how it is .
Yes , you will find people sliding everywhere .
Keep your head about you and do n't burn yourself out trying to outperform slackers .
Keeping a good work ethic yourself and working your pace and you will gravitate upwards .
You 'll start getting all the cool projects and recognition you want .
Make sure your name is on everything you do .
Project Managers gravitate to those that meet deadlines with quality work , but not only that , they also like to see continuous progress .
Technical people who are always J.I.T with their milestones do not continuously put out top quality product .
This becomes evident during code , design and dependency reviews .
They might not say anything -- a good Propject Manager probably wo n't , or hint so obtusely that it goes right over the slackers head .. but the others know .
Then , when times are lean and projects are scarce the slackers get culled from the herd .
Another thing , do n't be so quick to assume that somebody is a slacker just because they do n't work like you .
People do problem solve while doing other things and people do split their day with periods of intense concentration ( planning , design , layout ) with down and recuperative time ( browsing , chatting , foosball ) .
It is understood for the most part that salaried people , particularly design and planning engineers generally think about their projects problems and dependencies quite a bit when not at work .
So , if you 're new and starting out on the bottom rung of the ladder as a coder , coding somebody else 's conceptual design or implementing their plans you are going to have a lot more hands on time at work then the more senior people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well first thought is why worry?
That's your competition there.
Sounds like easy street to me.
Second thought is to tell you how it is.
Yes, you will find people sliding everywhere.
Keep your head about you and don't burn yourself out trying to outperform slackers.
Keeping a good work ethic yourself and working your pace and you will gravitate upwards.
You'll start getting all the cool projects and recognition you want.
Make sure your name is on everything you do.
Project Managers gravitate to those that meet deadlines with quality work, but not only that, they also like to see continuous progress.
Technical people who are always J.I.T with their milestones do not continuously put out top quality product.
This becomes evident during code, design and dependency reviews.
They might not say anything -- a good Propject Manager probably won't, or hint so obtusely that it goes right over the slackers head .. but the others know.
Then, when times are lean and projects are scarce the slackers get culled from the herd.
Another thing, don't be so quick to assume that somebody is a slacker just because they don't work like you.
People do problem solve while doing other things and people do split their day with periods of intense concentration (planning, design, layout) with down and recuperative time (browsing, chatting, foosball).
It is understood for the most part that salaried people, particularly design and planning engineers generally think about their projects problems and dependencies quite a bit when not at work.
So, if you're new and starting out on the bottom rung of the ladder as a coder, coding somebody else's conceptual design or implementing their plans you are going to have a lot more hands on time at work then the more senior people.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669106</id>
	<title>It is the work world</title>
	<author>assertation</author>
	<datestamp>1262791380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your shock is being new to the work world, not specifically the IT world.  I had the same observations as you when I entered the professional work world.  To your credit you were very smart in deciding not to bring your dissatisfaction up.  Many new workers before you have done that and have changed nothing but their own situation ( for the worse ).</p><p>The internet has made things worse.  It and talking to coworkers is my own problem.  I go through better and worse cycles with managing each.  Programming tends to mentally intense demanding breaks, needed breaks, but I overdue the chatting and surfing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your shock is being new to the work world , not specifically the IT world .
I had the same observations as you when I entered the professional work world .
To your credit you were very smart in deciding not to bring your dissatisfaction up .
Many new workers before you have done that and have changed nothing but their own situation ( for the worse ) .The internet has made things worse .
It and talking to coworkers is my own problem .
I go through better and worse cycles with managing each .
Programming tends to mentally intense demanding breaks , needed breaks , but I overdue the chatting and surfing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your shock is being new to the work world, not specifically the IT world.
I had the same observations as you when I entered the professional work world.
To your credit you were very smart in deciding not to bring your dissatisfaction up.
Many new workers before you have done that and have changed nothing but their own situation ( for the worse ).The internet has made things worse.
It and talking to coworkers is my own problem.
I go through better and worse cycles with managing each.
Programming tends to mentally intense demanding breaks, needed breaks, but I overdue the chatting and surfing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669070</id>
	<title>Good workers work whenever</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262791200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Programming isn't like anything else in the world and to some degree neither is administration. Go read some of Paul Graham's earlier essays on the topic and you will rethink some of what you posted:<br>http://paulgraham.com/articles.html. OTOH there are very few good IT people but most of the good ones do not do cool stuff at normal intervals, during normal hours using normal methods.</p><p>I suggest getting a good hobby like learning how to program in the real world.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Programming is n't like anything else in the world and to some degree neither is administration .
Go read some of Paul Graham 's earlier essays on the topic and you will rethink some of what you posted : http : //paulgraham.com/articles.html .
OTOH there are very few good IT people but most of the good ones do not do cool stuff at normal intervals , during normal hours using normal methods.I suggest getting a good hobby like learning how to program in the real world .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Programming isn't like anything else in the world and to some degree neither is administration.
Go read some of Paul Graham's earlier essays on the topic and you will rethink some of what you posted:http://paulgraham.com/articles.html.
OTOH there are very few good IT people but most of the good ones do not do cool stuff at normal intervals, during normal hours using normal methods.I suggest getting a good hobby like learning how to program in the real world.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667574</id>
	<title>Be Positive!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262778420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Do your female officemates have questionable work ethics as well?  If so, then you're in good company!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do your female officemates have questionable work ethics as well ?
If so , then you 're in good company !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do your female officemates have questionable work ethics as well?
If so, then you're in good company!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669400</id>
	<title>Re:Hang Gliding while being paid to write code...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262792820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>"This person would show up for work on time, punch-in (or clock-in) to show that this person was there... "</i> <p>
Wow, this struck me as strange...last time I actually 'punched a clock', it was working food service.</p><p>
Seriously, does anyone in a professional job (I generally consider IT to be pro work, I get pro PAY for it) actually clock in and out??</p><p>
I've worked W2 and 1099...and I've not had to deal with a time clock in decades.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" This person would show up for work on time , punch-in ( or clock-in ) to show that this person was there... " Wow , this struck me as strange...last time I actually 'punched a clock ' , it was working food service .
Seriously , does anyone in a professional job ( I generally consider IT to be pro work , I get pro PAY for it ) actually clock in and out ? ?
I 've worked W2 and 1099...and I 've not had to deal with a time clock in decades .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"This person would show up for work on time, punch-in (or clock-in) to show that this person was there... " 
Wow, this struck me as strange...last time I actually 'punched a clock', it was working food service.
Seriously, does anyone in a professional job (I generally consider IT to be pro work, I get pro PAY for it) actually clock in and out??
I've worked W2 and 1099...and I've not had to deal with a time clock in decades.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30675844</id>
	<title>Corporate structure</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262776620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The OP should read http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/</p><p>Only then will he understand that working hard and getting ahead are not the same thing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The OP should read http : //www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/Only then will he understand that working hard and getting ahead are not the same thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The OP should read http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/Only then will he understand that working hard and getting ahead are not the same thing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30682170</id>
	<title>Re:Hang Gliding while being paid to write code...</title>
	<author>BoothbyTCD</author>
	<datestamp>1262878560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are quite lucky, but unfortunately many employers/clients require a great deal of accountability. Working as I do for the NYC gov't, for instance, the very existence of consultants is a political football. Minute by minute accounting of money spent on our contracts is pretty much required, because at least half of the people we are working with are actively trying to get us fired at any point in time. Our group was recently told to be careful to clock in and out for lunch or going down to smoke because the office manager, a Dept. of Ed employee, had taken to scrutinizing the surveillance footage of the building entrance and comparing it to consultant timecards in an attempt (successful in at least two cases) to get people fired.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are quite lucky , but unfortunately many employers/clients require a great deal of accountability .
Working as I do for the NYC gov't , for instance , the very existence of consultants is a political football .
Minute by minute accounting of money spent on our contracts is pretty much required , because at least half of the people we are working with are actively trying to get us fired at any point in time .
Our group was recently told to be careful to clock in and out for lunch or going down to smoke because the office manager , a Dept .
of Ed employee , had taken to scrutinizing the surveillance footage of the building entrance and comparing it to consultant timecards in an attempt ( successful in at least two cases ) to get people fired .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are quite lucky, but unfortunately many employers/clients require a great deal of accountability.
Working as I do for the NYC gov't, for instance, the very existence of consultants is a political football.
Minute by minute accounting of money spent on our contracts is pretty much required, because at least half of the people we are working with are actively trying to get us fired at any point in time.
Our group was recently told to be careful to clock in and out for lunch or going down to smoke because the office manager, a Dept.
of Ed employee, had taken to scrutinizing the surveillance footage of the building entrance and comparing it to consultant timecards in an attempt (successful in at least two cases) to get people fired.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669400</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30671818</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>that this is not und</author>
	<datestamp>1262802360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><em>Computer programs are about the most complex things we create as humans.</em></p><p>It isn't the 1970's any more.  Cut it with the 'wizardry' stuff.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Computer programs are about the most complex things we create as humans.It is n't the 1970 's any more .
Cut it with the 'wizardry ' stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Computer programs are about the most complex things we create as humans.It isn't the 1970's any more.
Cut it with the 'wizardry' stuff.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667980</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668058</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>pugugly</author>
	<datestamp>1262783760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Everybody works hard - Exactly the preceding posters point.</p><p>The OP seems to be operating under the assumption that, y'know, "Only *I* am working hard! All my co-workers are reading Slashdot and producing lousy code!".</p><p>Well it's possible that he's the only good programmer with a strong work ethic hired by a lousy company that is miraculously making a profit in this economy.</p><p>Or it's possible he's a young programmer that doesn't recognize the difference between the theory of college and the practice of the real world, gives attitude to his co-workers for what he perceives as their shortcomings, and gets stuck on the short end of the stick because he's an uptight prick that, when the topic of overtime comes up among the management the thought is "He's got all this extra energy, let *him* do it".</p><p>I've seen badly managed companies make profits during recession. It's feasible. It's probably that one. Sure.</p><p>Pug</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Everybody works hard - Exactly the preceding posters point.The OP seems to be operating under the assumption that , y'know , " Only * I * am working hard !
All my co-workers are reading Slashdot and producing lousy code !
" .Well it 's possible that he 's the only good programmer with a strong work ethic hired by a lousy company that is miraculously making a profit in this economy.Or it 's possible he 's a young programmer that does n't recognize the difference between the theory of college and the practice of the real world , gives attitude to his co-workers for what he perceives as their shortcomings , and gets stuck on the short end of the stick because he 's an uptight prick that , when the topic of overtime comes up among the management the thought is " He 's got all this extra energy , let * him * do it " .I 've seen badly managed companies make profits during recession .
It 's feasible .
It 's probably that one .
Sure.Pug</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Everybody works hard - Exactly the preceding posters point.The OP seems to be operating under the assumption that, y'know, "Only *I* am working hard!
All my co-workers are reading Slashdot and producing lousy code!
".Well it's possible that he's the only good programmer with a strong work ethic hired by a lousy company that is miraculously making a profit in this economy.Or it's possible he's a young programmer that doesn't recognize the difference between the theory of college and the practice of the real world, gives attitude to his co-workers for what he perceives as their shortcomings, and gets stuck on the short end of the stick because he's an uptight prick that, when the topic of overtime comes up among the management the thought is "He's got all this extra energy, let *him* do it".I've seen badly managed companies make profits during recession.
It's feasible.
It's probably that one.
Sure.Pug</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669888</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262795160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That's is routine complexity for code.</p></div><p>Found an error for you there, Mr. Hotshit.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's is routine complexity for code.Found an error for you there , Mr. Hotshit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's is routine complexity for code.Found an error for you there, Mr. Hotshit.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667980</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30679116</id>
	<title>Lousy work ethic in IT industry</title>
	<author>thesquire</author>
	<datestamp>1262800140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What makes you so sure that the lousy work ethic is unique to the IT industry?  It is the same everywhere.  I was a senior manager in provincial government in Saskatchewan, Canada, and I found that the same problems existed.  Most people are lazy and stupid and only interested in feathering their own nests.  Does that surprise you?  If so, then you are either naive or stupid.

Everyone, except those of a certain age [those that learned to work as a result of the depression], expects a rewarding job where their employers consider them as being worthy and deserving of advancement to senior positions because of their intrinsic values as human beings, without consideration of actual contributions, merit or value contribution to the enterprise, especially those who are "most deserving" such as Indians or other minorities.

It is a losing game because competence, skill, educations level, and experience, are not valid anymore.

If you are too stupid to see this, then, too bad for you.  I am glad I am old enough to be dead before too long, and not have to deal with this crap for too much longer.

Myron Kuziak
 former lawyer, judge, etc.</htmltext>
<tokenext>What makes you so sure that the lousy work ethic is unique to the IT industry ?
It is the same everywhere .
I was a senior manager in provincial government in Saskatchewan , Canada , and I found that the same problems existed .
Most people are lazy and stupid and only interested in feathering their own nests .
Does that surprise you ?
If so , then you are either naive or stupid .
Everyone , except those of a certain age [ those that learned to work as a result of the depression ] , expects a rewarding job where their employers consider them as being worthy and deserving of advancement to senior positions because of their intrinsic values as human beings , without consideration of actual contributions , merit or value contribution to the enterprise , especially those who are " most deserving " such as Indians or other minorities .
It is a losing game because competence , skill , educations level , and experience , are not valid anymore .
If you are too stupid to see this , then , too bad for you .
I am glad I am old enough to be dead before too long , and not have to deal with this crap for too much longer .
Myron Kuziak former lawyer , judge , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What makes you so sure that the lousy work ethic is unique to the IT industry?
It is the same everywhere.
I was a senior manager in provincial government in Saskatchewan, Canada, and I found that the same problems existed.
Most people are lazy and stupid and only interested in feathering their own nests.
Does that surprise you?
If so, then you are either naive or stupid.
Everyone, except those of a certain age [those that learned to work as a result of the depression], expects a rewarding job where their employers consider them as being worthy and deserving of advancement to senior positions because of their intrinsic values as human beings, without consideration of actual contributions, merit or value contribution to the enterprise, especially those who are "most deserving" such as Indians or other minorities.
It is a losing game because competence, skill, educations level, and experience, are not valid anymore.
If you are too stupid to see this, then, too bad for you.
I am glad I am old enough to be dead before too long, and not have to deal with this crap for too much longer.
Myron Kuziak
 former lawyer, judge, etc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668348</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>thetoadwarrior</author>
	<datestamp>1262786460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've missed deadlines too but it's because the project management didn't listen to the time lines we actually gave and instead just made up a number. That is hardly a reflection upon my ability and I'm certainly not going to give up my weekends and evenings while the project management looks at Facebook just so I can make it look like he can do his job.
<br> <br>
As far as bad code goes I'm not sure making people work longer will produce better code.  A poor programmer working 8 hours instead of 4 hours just produces (in theory) twice as much shit code.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've missed deadlines too but it 's because the project management did n't listen to the time lines we actually gave and instead just made up a number .
That is hardly a reflection upon my ability and I 'm certainly not going to give up my weekends and evenings while the project management looks at Facebook just so I can make it look like he can do his job .
As far as bad code goes I 'm not sure making people work longer will produce better code .
A poor programmer working 8 hours instead of 4 hours just produces ( in theory ) twice as much shit code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've missed deadlines too but it's because the project management didn't listen to the time lines we actually gave and instead just made up a number.
That is hardly a reflection upon my ability and I'm certainly not going to give up my weekends and evenings while the project management looks at Facebook just so I can make it look like he can do his job.
As far as bad code goes I'm not sure making people work longer will produce better code.
A poor programmer working 8 hours instead of 4 hours just produces (in theory) twice as much shit code.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669446</id>
	<title>You're the only one stuck with working OT?</title>
	<author>barzok</author>
	<datestamp>1262793000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Being the 'new guy,' I get stuck with much of the weekend and after-hours grunt work when we inevitably miss deadlines or produce poor code.</p></div></blockquote><p>As you're also a recent graduate, I'm guessing that you're also single or at most have a girlfriend you're not living with, and have no kids. Probably very few other family obligations too.</p><p>I've been there. Got shat on endlessly. Everyone else takes advantage of your situation, saying "I can't work that weekend/late tonight, I have to do something with my kids" or something like that. You're stuck on-call every week, working late 3 days a week, working every Sunday, all because everyone sees your non-work life as less important because you don't have a spouse or kids.</p><p>You need to put a stop to it.  Don't refuse every time you're asked, but at least once a month if you're asked to work a weekend, you need to say no. Tell them you're going away skiing for the weekend with friends. You have to go visit your ailing grandmother. Even if it's not true. They tell you someone has to stay late on Wednesday? "Sorry, that's my dinner/poker night with the guys."</p><p>If a disproportionate amount of the after-hours/weekend work is falling on your shoulders, go to your supervisor. Being a team player is important - being a doormat is dangerous.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Being the 'new guy, ' I get stuck with much of the weekend and after-hours grunt work when we inevitably miss deadlines or produce poor code.As you 're also a recent graduate , I 'm guessing that you 're also single or at most have a girlfriend you 're not living with , and have no kids .
Probably very few other family obligations too.I 've been there .
Got shat on endlessly .
Everyone else takes advantage of your situation , saying " I ca n't work that weekend/late tonight , I have to do something with my kids " or something like that .
You 're stuck on-call every week , working late 3 days a week , working every Sunday , all because everyone sees your non-work life as less important because you do n't have a spouse or kids.You need to put a stop to it .
Do n't refuse every time you 're asked , but at least once a month if you 're asked to work a weekend , you need to say no .
Tell them you 're going away skiing for the weekend with friends .
You have to go visit your ailing grandmother .
Even if it 's not true .
They tell you someone has to stay late on Wednesday ?
" Sorry , that 's my dinner/poker night with the guys .
" If a disproportionate amount of the after-hours/weekend work is falling on your shoulders , go to your supervisor .
Being a team player is important - being a doormat is dangerous .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Being the 'new guy,' I get stuck with much of the weekend and after-hours grunt work when we inevitably miss deadlines or produce poor code.As you're also a recent graduate, I'm guessing that you're also single or at most have a girlfriend you're not living with, and have no kids.
Probably very few other family obligations too.I've been there.
Got shat on endlessly.
Everyone else takes advantage of your situation, saying "I can't work that weekend/late tonight, I have to do something with my kids" or something like that.
You're stuck on-call every week, working late 3 days a week, working every Sunday, all because everyone sees your non-work life as less important because you don't have a spouse or kids.You need to put a stop to it.
Don't refuse every time you're asked, but at least once a month if you're asked to work a weekend, you need to say no.
Tell them you're going away skiing for the weekend with friends.
You have to go visit your ailing grandmother.
Even if it's not true.
They tell you someone has to stay late on Wednesday?
"Sorry, that's my dinner/poker night with the guys.
"If a disproportionate amount of the after-hours/weekend work is falling on your shoulders, go to your supervisor.
Being a team player is important - being a doormat is dangerous.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30672456</id>
	<title>Re:Take it from an old timer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262804760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I used to kill myself. Work my ass off. I accepted excuses as to why I couldn't get a raise or a promotion even though I was told I earned one. People I learned were making big bonuses were telling me there was no money for bonuses. Then the excuses started to pile up year after year and I watched other people who worked less and had less responsibility get paid more because they were not IT. I watched it happen to all my co-workers too so I know it wasn't something I was doing. So if I can't get paid more I just give less. I'm naturally a hard worker so I had to train myself but now I'm happy to say I am taking advantage of the fucking parasites who were ever so happy to take advantage of me. It's not a good relationship or the one I would have chosen but at least I'm no longer the bitch. I'd type more but I got in late so it's almost time for my coffee break.</p></div><p>I agree. I used to bust a** over a state job. Shortly after my first nervous break down I stopped to realize that I was beating a dead horse. If management expected me to do 135\% sustained workload they were in fact, nuts.<br>After I started using all my sick days, protesting new projects I was laid off. It was the best thing that could have happened to me. It saved what sanity I had left. Now I have my own successful business and I hope that others realize that if you let the Lordship rule over you with an iron fist and take it you'll be forever branded a weak minded slave and treated like one.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I used to kill myself .
Work my ass off .
I accepted excuses as to why I could n't get a raise or a promotion even though I was told I earned one .
People I learned were making big bonuses were telling me there was no money for bonuses .
Then the excuses started to pile up year after year and I watched other people who worked less and had less responsibility get paid more because they were not IT .
I watched it happen to all my co-workers too so I know it was n't something I was doing .
So if I ca n't get paid more I just give less .
I 'm naturally a hard worker so I had to train myself but now I 'm happy to say I am taking advantage of the fucking parasites who were ever so happy to take advantage of me .
It 's not a good relationship or the one I would have chosen but at least I 'm no longer the bitch .
I 'd type more but I got in late so it 's almost time for my coffee break.I agree .
I used to bust a * * over a state job .
Shortly after my first nervous break down I stopped to realize that I was beating a dead horse .
If management expected me to do 135 \ % sustained workload they were in fact , nuts.After I started using all my sick days , protesting new projects I was laid off .
It was the best thing that could have happened to me .
It saved what sanity I had left .
Now I have my own successful business and I hope that others realize that if you let the Lordship rule over you with an iron fist and take it you 'll be forever branded a weak minded slave and treated like one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used to kill myself.
Work my ass off.
I accepted excuses as to why I couldn't get a raise or a promotion even though I was told I earned one.
People I learned were making big bonuses were telling me there was no money for bonuses.
Then the excuses started to pile up year after year and I watched other people who worked less and had less responsibility get paid more because they were not IT.
I watched it happen to all my co-workers too so I know it wasn't something I was doing.
So if I can't get paid more I just give less.
I'm naturally a hard worker so I had to train myself but now I'm happy to say I am taking advantage of the fucking parasites who were ever so happy to take advantage of me.
It's not a good relationship or the one I would have chosen but at least I'm no longer the bitch.
I'd type more but I got in late so it's almost time for my coffee break.I agree.
I used to bust a** over a state job.
Shortly after my first nervous break down I stopped to realize that I was beating a dead horse.
If management expected me to do 135\% sustained workload they were in fact, nuts.After I started using all my sick days, protesting new projects I was laid off.
It was the best thing that could have happened to me.
It saved what sanity I had left.
Now I have my own successful business and I hope that others realize that if you let the Lordship rule over you with an iron fist and take it you'll be forever branded a weak minded slave and treated like one.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669492</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30680580</id>
	<title>Worth it</title>
	<author>AndyCanfield</author>
	<datestamp>1262864340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>25 years ago I asked my co-worker about my work habits. He said "You goof off for eight hours a day, then you work for 20 minutes and earn your salary."
</p><p>
20 years ago I was training a new system administrator. I explained to her that some days you only needed to work four hours, but when the network is down you don't go home at night until it is back up.
</p><p>
Programmers do not work by the clock, nor by the lines of code. If you are happy with what I produce, it doesn't matter if it is 10,000 lines that took me 90 hours in one week, or 5 lines that took me one hour. If it works, and is readable, and is maintainable, it is worth what you paid me.
</p><p>
And, ironically, the best programmers produce the smallest, lightest, most readable code. Vast quantities of work and code are often a sign that the coder doesn't understand the problem.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>25 years ago I asked my co-worker about my work habits .
He said " You goof off for eight hours a day , then you work for 20 minutes and earn your salary .
" 20 years ago I was training a new system administrator .
I explained to her that some days you only needed to work four hours , but when the network is down you do n't go home at night until it is back up .
Programmers do not work by the clock , nor by the lines of code .
If you are happy with what I produce , it does n't matter if it is 10,000 lines that took me 90 hours in one week , or 5 lines that took me one hour .
If it works , and is readable , and is maintainable , it is worth what you paid me .
And , ironically , the best programmers produce the smallest , lightest , most readable code .
Vast quantities of work and code are often a sign that the coder does n't understand the problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>25 years ago I asked my co-worker about my work habits.
He said "You goof off for eight hours a day, then you work for 20 minutes and earn your salary.
"

20 years ago I was training a new system administrator.
I explained to her that some days you only needed to work four hours, but when the network is down you don't go home at night until it is back up.
Programmers do not work by the clock, nor by the lines of code.
If you are happy with what I produce, it doesn't matter if it is 10,000 lines that took me 90 hours in one week, or 5 lines that took me one hour.
If it works, and is readable, and is maintainable, it is worth what you paid me.
And, ironically, the best programmers produce the smallest, lightest, most readable code.
Vast quantities of work and code are often a sign that the coder doesn't understand the problem.
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668438</id>
	<title>there is a solution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262787180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>While some people take the view "you'll change to be slack" or place the blame on others - "it starts on the top"

I'll just say that I started an entry level desktop support position and was shocked at slackness, lack of quality and standard. I was the only person in the team who agreed to extra work, etc.

For me I didn't let it bother me (even though they were earning 2-3x my salary) - personally I just continued to improve my work skills, and increase efficiencies with the way I did my work. After six months I was resolving more incidents than the entire group put together (6 other people). Of course some people tried to use this against me by complaining to management 'he's hogging all the incidents' However I knew what management KPIs where, and were related to SLAs and thanks to my effort we were meeting targets 100\% month after month.

After 18 months I was promoted above people who had been working in the place 10 years + and given senior technical position. There was a slew of redundancies, which I survived, and then ending up becoming the team leader, of about 10 people. After a year my team expanded to 30 people, and I had the opportunity to implement methods to motivate people more, give them more opportunities. I looked into why people were not motivated and for some of them it was lack of internal cross training, lack of opportunities, and lack of direction. I implemented cross training and two team members successfully got prompted into areas that had been longing to work in for ages. I gave direction with people by giving them more specific tasks to achieve, and explaining more clearly our groups objectives and how to use our spare time for process improvement.

I continued with a positive attitude and hard work and was finally offered what I consider my dream job as a technical architect, working on massive number of customers and industries, and get all the most interesting work headed to me.

So you can see it as an opportunity for you to excel, or see it as "unfair" and possibly end up like the rest of your team.</htmltext>
<tokenext>While some people take the view " you 'll change to be slack " or place the blame on others - " it starts on the top " I 'll just say that I started an entry level desktop support position and was shocked at slackness , lack of quality and standard .
I was the only person in the team who agreed to extra work , etc .
For me I did n't let it bother me ( even though they were earning 2-3x my salary ) - personally I just continued to improve my work skills , and increase efficiencies with the way I did my work .
After six months I was resolving more incidents than the entire group put together ( 6 other people ) .
Of course some people tried to use this against me by complaining to management 'he 's hogging all the incidents ' However I knew what management KPIs where , and were related to SLAs and thanks to my effort we were meeting targets 100 \ % month after month .
After 18 months I was promoted above people who had been working in the place 10 years + and given senior technical position .
There was a slew of redundancies , which I survived , and then ending up becoming the team leader , of about 10 people .
After a year my team expanded to 30 people , and I had the opportunity to implement methods to motivate people more , give them more opportunities .
I looked into why people were not motivated and for some of them it was lack of internal cross training , lack of opportunities , and lack of direction .
I implemented cross training and two team members successfully got prompted into areas that had been longing to work in for ages .
I gave direction with people by giving them more specific tasks to achieve , and explaining more clearly our groups objectives and how to use our spare time for process improvement .
I continued with a positive attitude and hard work and was finally offered what I consider my dream job as a technical architect , working on massive number of customers and industries , and get all the most interesting work headed to me .
So you can see it as an opportunity for you to excel , or see it as " unfair " and possibly end up like the rest of your team .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While some people take the view "you'll change to be slack" or place the blame on others - "it starts on the top"

I'll just say that I started an entry level desktop support position and was shocked at slackness, lack of quality and standard.
I was the only person in the team who agreed to extra work, etc.
For me I didn't let it bother me (even though they were earning 2-3x my salary) - personally I just continued to improve my work skills, and increase efficiencies with the way I did my work.
After six months I was resolving more incidents than the entire group put together (6 other people).
Of course some people tried to use this against me by complaining to management 'he's hogging all the incidents' However I knew what management KPIs where, and were related to SLAs and thanks to my effort we were meeting targets 100\% month after month.
After 18 months I was promoted above people who had been working in the place 10 years + and given senior technical position.
There was a slew of redundancies, which I survived, and then ending up becoming the team leader, of about 10 people.
After a year my team expanded to 30 people, and I had the opportunity to implement methods to motivate people more, give them more opportunities.
I looked into why people were not motivated and for some of them it was lack of internal cross training, lack of opportunities, and lack of direction.
I implemented cross training and two team members successfully got prompted into areas that had been longing to work in for ages.
I gave direction with people by giving them more specific tasks to achieve, and explaining more clearly our groups objectives and how to use our spare time for process improvement.
I continued with a positive attitude and hard work and was finally offered what I consider my dream job as a technical architect, working on massive number of customers and industries, and get all the most interesting work headed to me.
So you can see it as an opportunity for you to excel, or see it as "unfair" and possibly end up like the rest of your team.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668492</id>
	<title>Do what you think is right</title>
	<author>jgrahn</author>
	<datestamp>1262787660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do what you think is right.
You seem to have a decent work ethic, so don't slack off just because the
others do.
But don't isolate yourself.  *Some* of that chatter is legitimate,
and you'll be less useful and have less fun at work if you don't know your
coworkers. Sometimes you can steer the conversation over to something work-related
once in a while (even complete slackers usually enjoy discussing things like the
possible usefulness of the product, or old war stories).
</p><p>
Make it clear, preferably in a friendly and non-obvious way,
that work has priority in your mind. If people come and bother you while
you're working, excuse yourself after a while.
If you come to someone for help and that guy is e.g. in a deep discussion about
soccer, don't wait around. Politely interrupt him.
</p><p>
I think it would be unwise to complain to management. They can figure it out for themselves, if they care to.
</p><p>
NB this advice is based on my experience with mostly mild slackness, and in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.se
(I have been told work politics differ a lot between countries).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do what you think is right .
You seem to have a decent work ethic , so do n't slack off just because the others do .
But do n't isolate yourself .
* Some * of that chatter is legitimate , and you 'll be less useful and have less fun at work if you do n't know your coworkers .
Sometimes you can steer the conversation over to something work-related once in a while ( even complete slackers usually enjoy discussing things like the possible usefulness of the product , or old war stories ) .
Make it clear , preferably in a friendly and non-obvious way , that work has priority in your mind .
If people come and bother you while you 're working , excuse yourself after a while .
If you come to someone for help and that guy is e.g .
in a deep discussion about soccer , do n't wait around .
Politely interrupt him .
I think it would be unwise to complain to management .
They can figure it out for themselves , if they care to .
NB this advice is based on my experience with mostly mild slackness , and in .se ( I have been told work politics differ a lot between countries ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do what you think is right.
You seem to have a decent work ethic, so don't slack off just because the
others do.
But don't isolate yourself.
*Some* of that chatter is legitimate,
and you'll be less useful and have less fun at work if you don't know your
coworkers.
Sometimes you can steer the conversation over to something work-related
once in a while (even complete slackers usually enjoy discussing things like the
possible usefulness of the product, or old war stories).
Make it clear, preferably in a friendly and non-obvious way,
that work has priority in your mind.
If people come and bother you while
you're working, excuse yourself after a while.
If you come to someone for help and that guy is e.g.
in a deep discussion about
soccer, don't wait around.
Politely interrupt him.
I think it would be unwise to complain to management.
They can figure it out for themselves, if they care to.
NB this advice is based on my experience with mostly mild slackness, and in .se
(I have been told work politics differ a lot between countries).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670744</id>
	<title>Not an easy solution</title>
	<author>jon3k</author>
	<datestamp>1262798100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Changing the culture in an organization isn't easy.  I think the best thing to do is lead by example and try and get people excited about work again.  Try and spark up discussions about projects and try and get people excited to do their work.
<br> <br>
Being the new guy is rough, but remember, everyone was the new guy once and put in their 80 hour weeks, now it's your turn.  Really you should take advantage of it and think of it as a crash course in the business.  That being said, if you feel it is becoming excessive, you need to sit down and talk about it with your supervisor.  And don't wait until you're ready to walk out the door.  It's much harder to have a rational discussion after you've been bottling up resent for months.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Changing the culture in an organization is n't easy .
I think the best thing to do is lead by example and try and get people excited about work again .
Try and spark up discussions about projects and try and get people excited to do their work .
Being the new guy is rough , but remember , everyone was the new guy once and put in their 80 hour weeks , now it 's your turn .
Really you should take advantage of it and think of it as a crash course in the business .
That being said , if you feel it is becoming excessive , you need to sit down and talk about it with your supervisor .
And do n't wait until you 're ready to walk out the door .
It 's much harder to have a rational discussion after you 've been bottling up resent for months .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Changing the culture in an organization isn't easy.
I think the best thing to do is lead by example and try and get people excited about work again.
Try and spark up discussions about projects and try and get people excited to do their work.
Being the new guy is rough, but remember, everyone was the new guy once and put in their 80 hour weeks, now it's your turn.
Really you should take advantage of it and think of it as a crash course in the business.
That being said, if you feel it is becoming excessive, you need to sit down and talk about it with your supervisor.
And don't wait until you're ready to walk out the door.
It's much harder to have a rational discussion after you've been bottling up resent for months.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667876</id>
	<title>When I were a lad...</title>
	<author>Archtech</author>
	<datestamp>1262781960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It gets worse... much worse. When I was working for a leading multinational computer vendor back in the 1980s, I distinctly recall beavering away at work while other team members chatted over coffee. I felt rather superior and smug, thinking "Well, even if they are letting the side down, I am making sure the work gets done".</p><p>You could have knocked me over with a feather when, at my next review, my supervisor criticized me sharply for my anti-social behaviour. He told me I should relax, chat more with the others, and generally be more human. The strong implication was that I had actually been undermining morale by failing to socialize and, perhaps, by making some of the others feel guilty.</p><p>As time went by, I found it tempting and easy to start slacking myself - especially if I was getting no credit, but actually harming my career prospects, by working flat out all shift (and sometimes several hours beyond).</p><p>That's how Wally came to be the way he is today!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It gets worse... much worse .
When I was working for a leading multinational computer vendor back in the 1980s , I distinctly recall beavering away at work while other team members chatted over coffee .
I felt rather superior and smug , thinking " Well , even if they are letting the side down , I am making sure the work gets done " .You could have knocked me over with a feather when , at my next review , my supervisor criticized me sharply for my anti-social behaviour .
He told me I should relax , chat more with the others , and generally be more human .
The strong implication was that I had actually been undermining morale by failing to socialize and , perhaps , by making some of the others feel guilty.As time went by , I found it tempting and easy to start slacking myself - especially if I was getting no credit , but actually harming my career prospects , by working flat out all shift ( and sometimes several hours beyond ) .That 's how Wally came to be the way he is today !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It gets worse... much worse.
When I was working for a leading multinational computer vendor back in the 1980s, I distinctly recall beavering away at work while other team members chatted over coffee.
I felt rather superior and smug, thinking "Well, even if they are letting the side down, I am making sure the work gets done".You could have knocked me over with a feather when, at my next review, my supervisor criticized me sharply for my anti-social behaviour.
He told me I should relax, chat more with the others, and generally be more human.
The strong implication was that I had actually been undermining morale by failing to socialize and, perhaps, by making some of the others feel guilty.As time went by, I found it tempting and easy to start slacking myself - especially if I was getting no credit, but actually harming my career prospects, by working flat out all shift (and sometimes several hours beyond).That's how Wally came to be the way he is today!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667806</id>
	<title>Hidden Opportunity</title>
	<author>fr5nk</author>
	<datestamp>1262781240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What you're observing are effects, not causes, so don't be so quick to judge your peers. If quality really is low and deadlines are problematic, perhaps you could read up on your Agile Methodology and gently nudge that into this workplace by acting as an example.
Much of the advice I read here is about placing limitations and making your job sustainable which is an essential part of e.g. SCRUM. You working your arse off will not help, indeed., so that would be a priority, or you won't be able to do anything else.

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum\_(development)" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum\_(development)</a> [wikipedia.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>What you 're observing are effects , not causes , so do n't be so quick to judge your peers .
If quality really is low and deadlines are problematic , perhaps you could read up on your Agile Methodology and gently nudge that into this workplace by acting as an example .
Much of the advice I read here is about placing limitations and making your job sustainable which is an essential part of e.g .
SCRUM. You working your arse off will not help , indeed. , so that would be a priority , or you wo n't be able to do anything else .
http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum \ _ ( development ) [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What you're observing are effects, not causes, so don't be so quick to judge your peers.
If quality really is low and deadlines are problematic, perhaps you could read up on your Agile Methodology and gently nudge that into this workplace by acting as an example.
Much of the advice I read here is about placing limitations and making your job sustainable which is an essential part of e.g.
SCRUM. You working your arse off will not help, indeed., so that would be a priority, or you won't be able to do anything else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum\_(development) [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30672126</id>
	<title>If Something&rsquo;s Not Worth Doing...</title>
	<author>c4t3y3</author>
	<datestamp>1262803440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...It&rsquo;s Not Worth Doing Right.</p><p>Working with impossible deadlines, broken design, non paid extra hours, and intense pressure, there is a point where you spend daily 12 hours working in the office, except you are not working, why would you? you are just fooling working half of the time, and tagging along until the next gig. Putting all your effort you could finish in 3 years instead 4, but when management was hoping to finish in less than two, what would be your reward? exactly the same.</p><p>Your project may not be like this one, but no doubt about it there is something extremely wrong on it, other than what you are telling.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...It    s Not Worth Doing Right.Working with impossible deadlines , broken design , non paid extra hours , and intense pressure , there is a point where you spend daily 12 hours working in the office , except you are not working , why would you ?
you are just fooling working half of the time , and tagging along until the next gig .
Putting all your effort you could finish in 3 years instead 4 , but when management was hoping to finish in less than two , what would be your reward ?
exactly the same.Your project may not be like this one , but no doubt about it there is something extremely wrong on it , other than what you are telling .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...It’s Not Worth Doing Right.Working with impossible deadlines, broken design, non paid extra hours, and intense pressure, there is a point where you spend daily 12 hours working in the office, except you are not working, why would you?
you are just fooling working half of the time, and tagging along until the next gig.
Putting all your effort you could finish in 3 years instead 4, but when management was hoping to finish in less than two, what would be your reward?
exactly the same.Your project may not be like this one, but no doubt about it there is something extremely wrong on it, other than what you are telling.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667446</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262777100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This!</p><p>The Idea that if people are browsing the internet, or having a coffee break, they aren't working is *bull*.  Programming is hard... It needs problems to go round in your head for a while before you settle on the right way to do something.  Doing something idle is *exactly* what's needed to get that to happen.</p><p>Programmer productivity is not measured in: lines of code written<br>Programmer productivity is not measured in: amount of time spent not browsing the web</p><p>Programmer productivity *is* measured in: Actually solving problems at a reasonable rate.<br>Programmer productivity *is* measured in: Ability to tell people why solving problem x will take 5 days {more | less} than expected, *before* it's too late.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This ! The Idea that if people are browsing the internet , or having a coffee break , they are n't working is * bull * .
Programming is hard... It needs problems to go round in your head for a while before you settle on the right way to do something .
Doing something idle is * exactly * what 's needed to get that to happen.Programmer productivity is not measured in : lines of code writtenProgrammer productivity is not measured in : amount of time spent not browsing the webProgrammer productivity * is * measured in : Actually solving problems at a reasonable rate.Programmer productivity * is * measured in : Ability to tell people why solving problem x will take 5 days { more | less } than expected , * before * it 's too late .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This!The Idea that if people are browsing the internet, or having a coffee break, they aren't working is *bull*.
Programming is hard... It needs problems to go round in your head for a while before you settle on the right way to do something.
Doing something idle is *exactly* what's needed to get that to happen.Programmer productivity is not measured in: lines of code writtenProgrammer productivity is not measured in: amount of time spent not browsing the webProgrammer productivity *is* measured in: Actually solving problems at a reasonable rate.Programmer productivity *is* measured in: Ability to tell people why solving problem x will take 5 days {more | less} than expected, *before* it's too late.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667346</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668980</id>
	<title>Wally Lives</title>
	<author>anorlunda</author>
	<datestamp>1262790720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do you think Scott Adams makes up the material for the Dilbert cartoon out of thin air?   It is funny precisely because it is a exaggerated version of reality.  Often the exaggeration is only slight.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do you think Scott Adams makes up the material for the Dilbert cartoon out of thin air ?
It is funny precisely because it is a exaggerated version of reality .
Often the exaggeration is only slight .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do you think Scott Adams makes up the material for the Dilbert cartoon out of thin air?
It is funny precisely because it is a exaggerated version of reality.
Often the exaggeration is only slight.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669644</id>
	<title>Similar experience, different conclusion</title>
	<author>RabidMonkey</author>
	<datestamp>1262794020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In my office, I see the same thing.  Myself and some others tend to be heads down, work work work, but that's because we have a LOT of work to do, and only 8 hours a day to get it done in.  The joys of working in a large production environment that is constantly growing</p><p>Beside our group are 2 groups of people who work in labs, testing things before they go into prod.  they seem to frequently have time to stand around, chat, have lunch (what a novelty!) etc, while myself and a couple others rarely have enough free time to grab some lunch and eat it in peace.</p><p>For a long time, it drove me nuts (and still does when I'm having a hectic day and hear them laughing it or, or worse, they come into our group just to chat), but I came to the conclusion that so long as i am getting what I have committed to doing done, I don't care what others do.  My teamlead and manager have set expectations, I have my own expectations, and so long as I meet those, then I am content.  It can get frustrating when work isn't evenly distributed, but I look at that as partly my fault, for taking on extra work and striving to deliver something that doesn't simply meet requirements.  I can't fault others for my own expectations.</p><p>Plus, I decided to try and join them occasionally for social time,and find that it actually helps.  When everyone is standing around chatting, I not only get a break, but I get to know my coworkers better, so when I, or they, need help with a problem, it's much easier to approach and relate and get things done quickly.  It's a tradeoff in time, and I use it liberally, but it's good to get up from my desk and give my brain a break sometimes.</p><p>The sooner you realize that you can't change how others work, only how you work, and that some people will always seem to get away with doing nothing for some reason, the sooner you'll find comfort/peace in the workplace.  If you really want to fix things, work your way into a TL position, or even just a leadership position of some sort, so you can nudge people the way you think they should go.  ultimately though, it's up to the person, and their manager, to adjust a work ethic.</p><p>Best of luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In my office , I see the same thing .
Myself and some others tend to be heads down , work work work , but that 's because we have a LOT of work to do , and only 8 hours a day to get it done in .
The joys of working in a large production environment that is constantly growingBeside our group are 2 groups of people who work in labs , testing things before they go into prod .
they seem to frequently have time to stand around , chat , have lunch ( what a novelty !
) etc , while myself and a couple others rarely have enough free time to grab some lunch and eat it in peace.For a long time , it drove me nuts ( and still does when I 'm having a hectic day and hear them laughing it or , or worse , they come into our group just to chat ) , but I came to the conclusion that so long as i am getting what I have committed to doing done , I do n't care what others do .
My teamlead and manager have set expectations , I have my own expectations , and so long as I meet those , then I am content .
It can get frustrating when work is n't evenly distributed , but I look at that as partly my fault , for taking on extra work and striving to deliver something that does n't simply meet requirements .
I ca n't fault others for my own expectations.Plus , I decided to try and join them occasionally for social time,and find that it actually helps .
When everyone is standing around chatting , I not only get a break , but I get to know my coworkers better , so when I , or they , need help with a problem , it 's much easier to approach and relate and get things done quickly .
It 's a tradeoff in time , and I use it liberally , but it 's good to get up from my desk and give my brain a break sometimes.The sooner you realize that you ca n't change how others work , only how you work , and that some people will always seem to get away with doing nothing for some reason , the sooner you 'll find comfort/peace in the workplace .
If you really want to fix things , work your way into a TL position , or even just a leadership position of some sort , so you can nudge people the way you think they should go .
ultimately though , it 's up to the person , and their manager , to adjust a work ethic.Best of luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my office, I see the same thing.
Myself and some others tend to be heads down, work work work, but that's because we have a LOT of work to do, and only 8 hours a day to get it done in.
The joys of working in a large production environment that is constantly growingBeside our group are 2 groups of people who work in labs, testing things before they go into prod.
they seem to frequently have time to stand around, chat, have lunch (what a novelty!
) etc, while myself and a couple others rarely have enough free time to grab some lunch and eat it in peace.For a long time, it drove me nuts (and still does when I'm having a hectic day and hear them laughing it or, or worse, they come into our group just to chat), but I came to the conclusion that so long as i am getting what I have committed to doing done, I don't care what others do.
My teamlead and manager have set expectations, I have my own expectations, and so long as I meet those, then I am content.
It can get frustrating when work isn't evenly distributed, but I look at that as partly my fault, for taking on extra work and striving to deliver something that doesn't simply meet requirements.
I can't fault others for my own expectations.Plus, I decided to try and join them occasionally for social time,and find that it actually helps.
When everyone is standing around chatting, I not only get a break, but I get to know my coworkers better, so when I, or they, need help with a problem, it's much easier to approach and relate and get things done quickly.
It's a tradeoff in time, and I use it liberally, but it's good to get up from my desk and give my brain a break sometimes.The sooner you realize that you can't change how others work, only how you work, and that some people will always seem to get away with doing nothing for some reason, the sooner you'll find comfort/peace in the workplace.
If you really want to fix things, work your way into a TL position, or even just a leadership position of some sort, so you can nudge people the way you think they should go.
ultimately though, it's up to the person, and their manager, to adjust a work ethic.Best of luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667976</id>
	<title>IT Professional</title>
	<author>Mr\_Plattz</author>
	<datestamp>1262782980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As an IT Professional, you get paid for what you know <i>not</i> how long you work.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As an IT Professional , you get paid for what you know not how long you work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As an IT Professional, you get paid for what you know not how long you work.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668184</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>YeeHaW\_Jelte</author>
	<datestamp>1262785200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Blablabla. Lot's of the parts that go into coding a good application need high level abstract thinking, something the brain isn't designed to do for very long periods of time effectively, and your body is not built to support it very well.</p><p>Man, I wish I could alternate with some 'physically taxing' work, as now I sometimes have to go out and exercise just to get my body prepped up again and in balance.</p><p>And yes, as a programmer you need to step back once in a while to see wtf your doing, because working prolonged periods of time on coding alone causes tunnelvision and will produce inefficient applications and code. Also, working unconcentrated causes your code to be buggy, and finding and removing bugs costs more time than actually preventing them from creeping in the code in the first place.</p><p>But hell, you might have guessed, I am a coder. What are you, that you have such a succint opinion on coders being 'a bunch of lazy assholes?' Have much hands-on experience on writing and maintaining code?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Blablabla .
Lot 's of the parts that go into coding a good application need high level abstract thinking , something the brain is n't designed to do for very long periods of time effectively , and your body is not built to support it very well.Man , I wish I could alternate with some 'physically taxing ' work , as now I sometimes have to go out and exercise just to get my body prepped up again and in balance.And yes , as a programmer you need to step back once in a while to see wtf your doing , because working prolonged periods of time on coding alone causes tunnelvision and will produce inefficient applications and code .
Also , working unconcentrated causes your code to be buggy , and finding and removing bugs costs more time than actually preventing them from creeping in the code in the first place.But hell , you might have guessed , I am a coder .
What are you , that you have such a succint opinion on coders being 'a bunch of lazy assholes ?
' Have much hands-on experience on writing and maintaining code ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Blablabla.
Lot's of the parts that go into coding a good application need high level abstract thinking, something the brain isn't designed to do for very long periods of time effectively, and your body is not built to support it very well.Man, I wish I could alternate with some 'physically taxing' work, as now I sometimes have to go out and exercise just to get my body prepped up again and in balance.And yes, as a programmer you need to step back once in a while to see wtf your doing, because working prolonged periods of time on coding alone causes tunnelvision and will produce inefficient applications and code.
Also, working unconcentrated causes your code to be buggy, and finding and removing bugs costs more time than actually preventing them from creeping in the code in the first place.But hell, you might have guessed, I am a coder.
What are you, that you have such a succint opinion on coders being 'a bunch of lazy assholes?
' Have much hands-on experience on writing and maintaining code?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668378</id>
	<title>Re:Reading /. != slacking</title>
	<author>Tim C</author>
	<datestamp>1262786640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Working as a developer back in the 1900s</i></p><p>I knew the low UIDers here were generally old, but I didn't realise just how old...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Working as a developer back in the 1900sI knew the low UIDers here were generally old , but I did n't realise just how old.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Working as a developer back in the 1900sI knew the low UIDers here were generally old, but I didn't realise just how old...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667730</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668128</id>
	<title>All too common</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262784540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Welcome to the real world, where cheating is acceptable, laziness is often rewarded and the only people who succeed are those who stand up and shout for it or those who suck up for it.  If you don't speak up about your own value, no one else will, or worse, someone else will try to claim your work as their own.  Get used to the bad work ethic, it's here to stay, no matter what company you work for, but make sure you let your supervisor(s) know what you have done for them work-wise and you should be okay.  Don't play the blame game, just do your part and let it be known that you have.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Welcome to the real world , where cheating is acceptable , laziness is often rewarded and the only people who succeed are those who stand up and shout for it or those who suck up for it .
If you do n't speak up about your own value , no one else will , or worse , someone else will try to claim your work as their own .
Get used to the bad work ethic , it 's here to stay , no matter what company you work for , but make sure you let your supervisor ( s ) know what you have done for them work-wise and you should be okay .
Do n't play the blame game , just do your part and let it be known that you have .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Welcome to the real world, where cheating is acceptable, laziness is often rewarded and the only people who succeed are those who stand up and shout for it or those who suck up for it.
If you don't speak up about your own value, no one else will, or worse, someone else will try to claim your work as their own.
Get used to the bad work ethic, it's here to stay, no matter what company you work for, but make sure you let your supervisor(s) know what you have done for them work-wise and you should be okay.
Don't play the blame game, just do your part and let it be known that you have.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667986</id>
	<title>give this guy a few more years in the workforce...</title>
	<author>Dr\_Ken</author>
	<datestamp>1262783040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>...and we'll see what he says then. It always looks different when you're outside looking in. Talk to us after your first layoff kiddo.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...and we 'll see what he says then .
It always looks different when you 're outside looking in .
Talk to us after your first layoff kiddo .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...and we'll see what he says then.
It always looks different when you're outside looking in.
Talk to us after your first layoff kiddo.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668534</id>
	<title>At birth we are equal,why do we impose inequality?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262787900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When college dropouts like Bill Gates get to be the richest on earth simply because he was at the right place at the right time (and had a father who was an attorney to navigate the real world for him), it makes you doubt the concept of meritocracy. I would go so far to say that meritocracy is a phallacy shoved up the asses of the masses to keep them moving. I so much prefer the honest free exchange of ideas that we had when our work was worthless--remember the days when people used to say that computers were toys? The management types have leveraged our love for what we do so they can monetize it. I think we can respond the only sane way that an intelligent being can in order to assert our mutual respect. Bloatware with expressions of pseudopassion for it. The management types do not know passion for work. If they choose to inflate their BS then we can inflate our code.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When college dropouts like Bill Gates get to be the richest on earth simply because he was at the right place at the right time ( and had a father who was an attorney to navigate the real world for him ) , it makes you doubt the concept of meritocracy .
I would go so far to say that meritocracy is a phallacy shoved up the asses of the masses to keep them moving .
I so much prefer the honest free exchange of ideas that we had when our work was worthless--remember the days when people used to say that computers were toys ?
The management types have leveraged our love for what we do so they can monetize it .
I think we can respond the only sane way that an intelligent being can in order to assert our mutual respect .
Bloatware with expressions of pseudopassion for it .
The management types do not know passion for work .
If they choose to inflate their BS then we can inflate our code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When college dropouts like Bill Gates get to be the richest on earth simply because he was at the right place at the right time (and had a father who was an attorney to navigate the real world for him), it makes you doubt the concept of meritocracy.
I would go so far to say that meritocracy is a phallacy shoved up the asses of the masses to keep them moving.
I so much prefer the honest free exchange of ideas that we had when our work was worthless--remember the days when people used to say that computers were toys?
The management types have leveraged our love for what we do so they can monetize it.
I think we can respond the only sane way that an intelligent being can in order to assert our mutual respect.
Bloatware with expressions of pseudopassion for it.
The management types do not know passion for work.
If they choose to inflate their BS then we can inflate our code.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669066</id>
	<title>Burn Out</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262791200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Try working like a dog for a year or so.  Nights, weekends, without wasting any time.  I did when I was new and got angry with my co-workers that wasted time.  When it was time for raises, mine was not any larger and I receieved no additional compensation for my extra effort other than a few pats on the back.  I now let me wife do the back rubs when I cut off my work day at exactly 8 hours, some of which is spent reading slashdot.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Try working like a dog for a year or so .
Nights , weekends , without wasting any time .
I did when I was new and got angry with my co-workers that wasted time .
When it was time for raises , mine was not any larger and I receieved no additional compensation for my extra effort other than a few pats on the back .
I now let me wife do the back rubs when I cut off my work day at exactly 8 hours , some of which is spent reading slashdot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Try working like a dog for a year or so.
Nights, weekends, without wasting any time.
I did when I was new and got angry with my co-workers that wasted time.
When it was time for raises, mine was not any larger and I receieved no additional compensation for my extra effort other than a few pats on the back.
I now let me wife do the back rubs when I cut off my work day at exactly 8 hours, some of which is spent reading slashdot.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30681318</id>
	<title>Re:Peter.... how's it going?</title>
	<author>AgentSmith</author>
	<datestamp>1262873400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The Matrix will never accept Lumbergh as an Agent.</p><p>He's too . .<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.stuffy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The Matrix will never accept Lumbergh as an Agent.He 's too .
. .stuffy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Matrix will never accept Lumbergh as an Agent.He's too .
. .stuffy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668160</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667542</id>
	<title>Just ignore the problem, sorta</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262778120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work for the US government. Once a year I send an email to upper management reporting the massive waste I'm forced to deal with (about 30\% of all money spent, in a multi-$1B/year budget, is wasted in one way or another).</p><p>Each year management decides to ignore me. I make sure I'm not part of the problem, and do my best to deal with it.</p><p>Being at the bottom of the food chain, the system is designed to crush me if I want to take a stand for the benefit of all. So I don't. No one likes whistle-blowers, except for maybe tax-payers . . .</p><p>Maybe your managers will be more attentive? Give em a try.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work for the US government .
Once a year I send an email to upper management reporting the massive waste I 'm forced to deal with ( about 30 \ % of all money spent , in a multi- $ 1B/year budget , is wasted in one way or another ) .Each year management decides to ignore me .
I make sure I 'm not part of the problem , and do my best to deal with it.Being at the bottom of the food chain , the system is designed to crush me if I want to take a stand for the benefit of all .
So I do n't .
No one likes whistle-blowers , except for maybe tax-payers .
. .Maybe your managers will be more attentive ?
Give em a try .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work for the US government.
Once a year I send an email to upper management reporting the massive waste I'm forced to deal with (about 30\% of all money spent, in a multi-$1B/year budget, is wasted in one way or another).Each year management decides to ignore me.
I make sure I'm not part of the problem, and do my best to deal with it.Being at the bottom of the food chain, the system is designed to crush me if I want to take a stand for the benefit of all.
So I don't.
No one likes whistle-blowers, except for maybe tax-payers .
. .Maybe your managers will be more attentive?
Give em a try.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668134</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262784600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> Have you ever written anything where a single misplaced semicolon can break the whole document in bad bad non-obvious ways? Or where every paragraph is manually cross-referenced with at least two more? That's is routine complexity for code...</p></div><p>Yes, that sounds suspiciously like just about every legal document or draft law or business contract out there. I.e. things that lawyers and their ilk have been coping with for hundreds of years, without the luxury of instant debugger feedback. Not to speak of accountancy, where a single misplaced dot can mean a lot more than to a program (with a rulebook that is way more arcane than that of any programming language around).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Have you ever written anything where a single misplaced semicolon can break the whole document in bad bad non-obvious ways ?
Or where every paragraph is manually cross-referenced with at least two more ?
That 's is routine complexity for code...Yes , that sounds suspiciously like just about every legal document or draft law or business contract out there .
I.e. things that lawyers and their ilk have been coping with for hundreds of years , without the luxury of instant debugger feedback .
Not to speak of accountancy , where a single misplaced dot can mean a lot more than to a program ( with a rulebook that is way more arcane than that of any programming language around ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Have you ever written anything where a single misplaced semicolon can break the whole document in bad bad non-obvious ways?
Or where every paragraph is manually cross-referenced with at least two more?
That's is routine complexity for code...Yes, that sounds suspiciously like just about every legal document or draft law or business contract out there.
I.e. things that lawyers and their ilk have been coping with for hundreds of years, without the luxury of instant debugger feedback.
Not to speak of accountancy, where a single misplaced dot can mean a lot more than to a program (with a rulebook that is way more arcane than that of any programming language around).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667980</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30671708</id>
	<title>Comparison</title>
	<author>Stormcrow309</author>
	<datestamp>1262801940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Let me make a comparison. I and another analyst are working similar projects with a similar timeframe. He has worked here for a year after college. I have worked for ten. We have four weeks to finish the project. I finish mine in two weeks at about four hours a day, five days a week. He takes all four weeks, working ten hour days, seven days a week. The difference between us is really experience. I will spend my time up front learning my users wants and needs, while he works on the rock methodology of requirements analysis. (User: I want a rock. Analyst: Is this the rock you want? User: No, find a different rock. Goto Beginning.) I take time every week to network with my users and learn their business processes and what their problems are. My cohort just is to busy showing everyone how smart he is and how hard he works. That is why I read the WSJ, Slashdot, Wired, the Economist, some industry rags (our core business, not IT), and Tech Review at work. It helps for me to understand what my customer needs are, sometimes before they do. Design iterations are quicker and more complete solution wise. Trying to explain it to a fresh face out of college who has been taught just to code is very difficult.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Let me make a comparison .
I and another analyst are working similar projects with a similar timeframe .
He has worked here for a year after college .
I have worked for ten .
We have four weeks to finish the project .
I finish mine in two weeks at about four hours a day , five days a week .
He takes all four weeks , working ten hour days , seven days a week .
The difference between us is really experience .
I will spend my time up front learning my users wants and needs , while he works on the rock methodology of requirements analysis .
( User : I want a rock .
Analyst : Is this the rock you want ?
User : No , find a different rock .
Goto Beginning .
) I take time every week to network with my users and learn their business processes and what their problems are .
My cohort just is to busy showing everyone how smart he is and how hard he works .
That is why I read the WSJ , Slashdot , Wired , the Economist , some industry rags ( our core business , not IT ) , and Tech Review at work .
It helps for me to understand what my customer needs are , sometimes before they do .
Design iterations are quicker and more complete solution wise .
Trying to explain it to a fresh face out of college who has been taught just to code is very difficult .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let me make a comparison.
I and another analyst are working similar projects with a similar timeframe.
He has worked here for a year after college.
I have worked for ten.
We have four weeks to finish the project.
I finish mine in two weeks at about four hours a day, five days a week.
He takes all four weeks, working ten hour days, seven days a week.
The difference between us is really experience.
I will spend my time up front learning my users wants and needs, while he works on the rock methodology of requirements analysis.
(User: I want a rock.
Analyst: Is this the rock you want?
User: No, find a different rock.
Goto Beginning.
) I take time every week to network with my users and learn their business processes and what their problems are.
My cohort just is to busy showing everyone how smart he is and how hard he works.
That is why I read the WSJ, Slashdot, Wired, the Economist, some industry rags (our core business, not IT), and Tech Review at work.
It helps for me to understand what my customer needs are, sometimes before they do.
Design iterations are quicker and more complete solution wise.
Trying to explain it to a fresh face out of college who has been taught just to code is very difficult.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670226</id>
	<title>Stop whining, you sissy</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1262796300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First off, you are the new guy, who are you to worry about others, just worry about your own work.</p><p>Second, no one likes a tattle tale, especially when it involves so many people....what happens when you mention that this guy was surfing the web (it happened to be to look up info on projects) and you get him fired, then he slaps a lawsuit on your company for wrongful dismissal....you see what I am getting at.</p><p>Third, like most highly efficient programmers, there tends to be development of efficiency with coding and reusing code, sometimes you need some de-stress time to get your head on straight, before jumping into the project, and avoid coding so many bad errors, instead take the time to relax, and flow.</p><p>Fourth, coding is a bit like magic, although you don't see it (well most bosses don't review your code) it works. So when the guy that is looking like he is goofing off , ends up putting out a product that works without too many errors, and you seem to be staying weekends because you have so many bugs or missing deadlines, I would actually take a look at their work habits more then you think. If they are however missing deadlines and creating bad code, they shoudl not be used as a role model.</p><p>I remember my first internship (turned into a job), I had this hardcore programmer (CoolJoe)<br>who knew all about everything, and he would come in at about 10 and leave at 4 with a big lunch in the middle, I never once said anything....most of his time was spent on casino websites during his day....so how did he get all 6 projects done on time, and without 1 line of code to be redone or corrected. While everybody else in that same office had many errors, and at most 2 projects and worked 9 to 5. He was my programming role model. Today (12 years later) I so look back at that time and see what he was doing as necessity for keeping a cool head and a clear picture of what needed to be done. He is still at that same job today, peanuts compared to what he could be making if he looked for a better job, but much happier , probably.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First off , you are the new guy , who are you to worry about others , just worry about your own work.Second , no one likes a tattle tale , especially when it involves so many people....what happens when you mention that this guy was surfing the web ( it happened to be to look up info on projects ) and you get him fired , then he slaps a lawsuit on your company for wrongful dismissal....you see what I am getting at.Third , like most highly efficient programmers , there tends to be development of efficiency with coding and reusing code , sometimes you need some de-stress time to get your head on straight , before jumping into the project , and avoid coding so many bad errors , instead take the time to relax , and flow.Fourth , coding is a bit like magic , although you do n't see it ( well most bosses do n't review your code ) it works .
So when the guy that is looking like he is goofing off , ends up putting out a product that works without too many errors , and you seem to be staying weekends because you have so many bugs or missing deadlines , I would actually take a look at their work habits more then you think .
If they are however missing deadlines and creating bad code , they shoudl not be used as a role model.I remember my first internship ( turned into a job ) , I had this hardcore programmer ( CoolJoe ) who knew all about everything , and he would come in at about 10 and leave at 4 with a big lunch in the middle , I never once said anything....most of his time was spent on casino websites during his day....so how did he get all 6 projects done on time , and without 1 line of code to be redone or corrected .
While everybody else in that same office had many errors , and at most 2 projects and worked 9 to 5 .
He was my programming role model .
Today ( 12 years later ) I so look back at that time and see what he was doing as necessity for keeping a cool head and a clear picture of what needed to be done .
He is still at that same job today , peanuts compared to what he could be making if he looked for a better job , but much happier , probably .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First off, you are the new guy, who are you to worry about others, just worry about your own work.Second, no one likes a tattle tale, especially when it involves so many people....what happens when you mention that this guy was surfing the web (it happened to be to look up info on projects) and you get him fired, then he slaps a lawsuit on your company for wrongful dismissal....you see what I am getting at.Third, like most highly efficient programmers, there tends to be development of efficiency with coding and reusing code, sometimes you need some de-stress time to get your head on straight, before jumping into the project, and avoid coding so many bad errors, instead take the time to relax, and flow.Fourth, coding is a bit like magic, although you don't see it (well most bosses don't review your code) it works.
So when the guy that is looking like he is goofing off , ends up putting out a product that works without too many errors, and you seem to be staying weekends because you have so many bugs or missing deadlines, I would actually take a look at their work habits more then you think.
If they are however missing deadlines and creating bad code, they shoudl not be used as a role model.I remember my first internship (turned into a job), I had this hardcore programmer (CoolJoe)who knew all about everything, and he would come in at about 10 and leave at 4 with a big lunch in the middle, I never once said anything....most of his time was spent on casino websites during his day....so how did he get all 6 projects done on time, and without 1 line of code to be redone or corrected.
While everybody else in that same office had many errors, and at most 2 projects and worked 9 to 5.
He was my programming role model.
Today (12 years later) I so look back at that time and see what he was doing as necessity for keeping a cool head and a clear picture of what needed to be done.
He is still at that same job today, peanuts compared to what he could be making if he looked for a better job, but much happier , probably.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30672168</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>composer777</author>
	<datestamp>1262803680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here's another way to think about it.  Think about walking, it's pretty obvious and easy to do, right?  Now, think about how you would explain what you do when you are walking, in a way that would be impossible to get wrong, and that takes into account every single input variable.  Think about all of the algorithms you would have to use to manage the interaction of this input.</p><p>While programmers don't have to do tasks that hard every day, it gives you an idea of the kind of problems that programmers face when dealing with people who have no knowledge of how computers work.  Walking is easy for humans, but to figure out HOW you actually do it, and getting a machine to do it, is very, very hard.  I had a boss who literally couldn't even say what he wanted done.  He would often forget very important details, and not even have a name for what he wanted, yet expected me to figure it out and automate it very quickly.  Even making software "smart" enough to make the right decision is difficult.  You have to sit down and think about exactly how a decision is made, and what variables are used to come to that decision.  Often times, for humans, this process is completely unconscious, and making it conscious, and obvious, is very hard.  Basically, you are highlighting what is important, making the previously invisible, visible.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's another way to think about it .
Think about walking , it 's pretty obvious and easy to do , right ?
Now , think about how you would explain what you do when you are walking , in a way that would be impossible to get wrong , and that takes into account every single input variable .
Think about all of the algorithms you would have to use to manage the interaction of this input.While programmers do n't have to do tasks that hard every day , it gives you an idea of the kind of problems that programmers face when dealing with people who have no knowledge of how computers work .
Walking is easy for humans , but to figure out HOW you actually do it , and getting a machine to do it , is very , very hard .
I had a boss who literally could n't even say what he wanted done .
He would often forget very important details , and not even have a name for what he wanted , yet expected me to figure it out and automate it very quickly .
Even making software " smart " enough to make the right decision is difficult .
You have to sit down and think about exactly how a decision is made , and what variables are used to come to that decision .
Often times , for humans , this process is completely unconscious , and making it conscious , and obvious , is very hard .
Basically , you are highlighting what is important , making the previously invisible , visible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's another way to think about it.
Think about walking, it's pretty obvious and easy to do, right?
Now, think about how you would explain what you do when you are walking, in a way that would be impossible to get wrong, and that takes into account every single input variable.
Think about all of the algorithms you would have to use to manage the interaction of this input.While programmers don't have to do tasks that hard every day, it gives you an idea of the kind of problems that programmers face when dealing with people who have no knowledge of how computers work.
Walking is easy for humans, but to figure out HOW you actually do it, and getting a machine to do it, is very, very hard.
I had a boss who literally couldn't even say what he wanted done.
He would often forget very important details, and not even have a name for what he wanted, yet expected me to figure it out and automate it very quickly.
Even making software "smart" enough to make the right decision is difficult.
You have to sit down and think about exactly how a decision is made, and what variables are used to come to that decision.
Often times, for humans, this process is completely unconscious, and making it conscious, and obvious, is very hard.
Basically, you are highlighting what is important, making the previously invisible, visible.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668988</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30671750</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1262802060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work.</i></p><p>It's not just coders, it's everybody. The laziest guy in your office thinks he's the hardest worker, no matter what his job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work.It 's not just coders , it 's everybody .
The laziest guy in your office thinks he 's the hardest worker , no matter what his job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work.It's not just coders, it's everybody.
The laziest guy in your office thinks he's the hardest worker, no matter what his job.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668382</id>
	<title>Accept or move on</title>
	<author>Rumagent</author>
	<datestamp>1262786700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Basically you can't do anything without being an asshole. If I were you, I would get another job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Basically you ca n't do anything without being an asshole .
If I were you , I would get another job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Basically you can't do anything without being an asshole.
If I were you, I would get another job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669014</id>
	<title>You cant be creative 8 consecutive hours a day.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262790900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you need to do debugging of any sorts, yea, you need to sit in front of your computer. If you have something to write, yea, you need to sit in front of your computer. If you need to do creative work, it depends on your skill. I don't mean you suck, but if you're a recent graduate who primarily acquired your skills at the uni, and you haven't been hacking for the artistic need since early childhood, you probably do need to spend that time too. If your formalisms come as natural to you as your natural language you don't. Actually it's counterproductive. I can dream up models of an equivalent of about 10k lines of C (on a detailed level) before I NEED to write it down. I don't even think that's very exceptional for someone with real skill. Not that you have to wait until you absolutely have to spew it out so you wont drop the eggs. Point being, if you don't know what to write, don't write stuff. You will end up wasting time and use more code than needed to solve the problem. I promise. What people do to actually get the creative work done is up to them, whatever floats your boat. I like to go skateboarding, listen to music, get high, sleep on it. Some may like talking about football, not that I can even remotely get that. Now I could be wrong, maybe you're in a bad place full of mediocre people who just don't do their work, but if others do the creative work, and you're a fresh out university hacker working on well delimited bits of other peoples code, maybe you shouldn't be so quick to judge. Or maybe you should get a suit and go into management.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you need to do debugging of any sorts , yea , you need to sit in front of your computer .
If you have something to write , yea , you need to sit in front of your computer .
If you need to do creative work , it depends on your skill .
I do n't mean you suck , but if you 're a recent graduate who primarily acquired your skills at the uni , and you have n't been hacking for the artistic need since early childhood , you probably do need to spend that time too .
If your formalisms come as natural to you as your natural language you do n't .
Actually it 's counterproductive .
I can dream up models of an equivalent of about 10k lines of C ( on a detailed level ) before I NEED to write it down .
I do n't even think that 's very exceptional for someone with real skill .
Not that you have to wait until you absolutely have to spew it out so you wont drop the eggs .
Point being , if you do n't know what to write , do n't write stuff .
You will end up wasting time and use more code than needed to solve the problem .
I promise .
What people do to actually get the creative work done is up to them , whatever floats your boat .
I like to go skateboarding , listen to music , get high , sleep on it .
Some may like talking about football , not that I can even remotely get that .
Now I could be wrong , maybe you 're in a bad place full of mediocre people who just do n't do their work , but if others do the creative work , and you 're a fresh out university hacker working on well delimited bits of other peoples code , maybe you should n't be so quick to judge .
Or maybe you should get a suit and go into management .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you need to do debugging of any sorts, yea, you need to sit in front of your computer.
If you have something to write, yea, you need to sit in front of your computer.
If you need to do creative work, it depends on your skill.
I don't mean you suck, but if you're a recent graduate who primarily acquired your skills at the uni, and you haven't been hacking for the artistic need since early childhood, you probably do need to spend that time too.
If your formalisms come as natural to you as your natural language you don't.
Actually it's counterproductive.
I can dream up models of an equivalent of about 10k lines of C (on a detailed level) before I NEED to write it down.
I don't even think that's very exceptional for someone with real skill.
Not that you have to wait until you absolutely have to spew it out so you wont drop the eggs.
Point being, if you don't know what to write, don't write stuff.
You will end up wasting time and use more code than needed to solve the problem.
I promise.
What people do to actually get the creative work done is up to them, whatever floats your boat.
I like to go skateboarding, listen to music, get high, sleep on it.
Some may like talking about football, not that I can even remotely get that.
Now I could be wrong, maybe you're in a bad place full of mediocre people who just don't do their work, but if others do the creative work, and you're a fresh out university hacker working on well delimited bits of other peoples code, maybe you shouldn't be so quick to judge.
Or maybe you should get a suit and go into management.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30683736</id>
	<title>Reality: Entry Level Job = Dysfunctional Company</title>
	<author>JadedApprentice</author>
	<datestamp>1262885280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Given the amount of quality experienced talent in the marketplace right now, you wouldn't have been hired in the first place if the hiring organization wasn't fairly dysfunctional to begin with. In this business, a small team of experienced and well-compensated developers with a strong work ethic (the latter doesn't necessarily have anything to do with hours they put in - only measured by their work product) will run circles around teams twice their size. Teams like this simply don't hire new grads (unless the new grad is already well known to them and proven themselves through an internship or open source project). As the economy has slowed, most organizations have cut back compensation increases, reduced or eliminated bonuses, and perhaps implemented a week or two of furlough - this serves to further demotivate those who survived the last round of job cuts and makes plain the reality that in general hard work is not itself rewarded with anything but more hard work. You'll continue to struggle in your current position until you accept that the nature of your relationship with your employer is mutually parasitic.
<br> <br>
That said, you don't need to sink to the level of your co-workers if they are not delivering quality product. Unless you're happy working long hours and weekends, set reasonable limits on work hours that you'll only bypass under extraordinary circumstances (you'll need to have some notion in advance what qualifies so that isn't abused). Your co-workers and boss will respect those limits if you're clear about them and demonstrate a high level of dedication during work hours. Until you have specialized skills and experience that entitle you to become choosy about work assignments, consider your current career stage one of "paying your dues" and hopefully you won't waste the resulting seniority like your co-workers. Whatever you do, don't waste your time worrying about what your co-workers do. Find ways to carve out areas of responsibility that you own and prioritize your efforts such that your best efforts are always spent on those projects that your leadership chain knows are owned by you. Be conscious of what your boss gets credit for as well and be sure to prioritize accordingly - but don't make a show about it and be careful about that which might be interpreted by your co-workers as making them look bad or "sucking up" - over time you will find that it's possible to get the respect of your peers and your co-workers as well, particularly if you take the to socialize with your co-workers--you still need their experience and they'll share the important details you need if you gain their trust on a personal level. Above all, be realistic. While you need to pay lip service to all the idealistic things your corporate culture and individual upbringing values, your actions should be based on realistic assumptions about what's possible. Sometimes extraordinary things will happen, but planning for the extraordinary is usually a recipe for failure.
<br> <br> <strong>
In short, quit wasting time worrying about everyone else and recognize that entry-level positions always come with organizational dysfunction. Learn everything you can in this position so you can become qualified for a better one down the road. Repeat ad infinitum and you will have a full and rewarding career.</strong></htmltext>
<tokenext>Given the amount of quality experienced talent in the marketplace right now , you would n't have been hired in the first place if the hiring organization was n't fairly dysfunctional to begin with .
In this business , a small team of experienced and well-compensated developers with a strong work ethic ( the latter does n't necessarily have anything to do with hours they put in - only measured by their work product ) will run circles around teams twice their size .
Teams like this simply do n't hire new grads ( unless the new grad is already well known to them and proven themselves through an internship or open source project ) .
As the economy has slowed , most organizations have cut back compensation increases , reduced or eliminated bonuses , and perhaps implemented a week or two of furlough - this serves to further demotivate those who survived the last round of job cuts and makes plain the reality that in general hard work is not itself rewarded with anything but more hard work .
You 'll continue to struggle in your current position until you accept that the nature of your relationship with your employer is mutually parasitic .
That said , you do n't need to sink to the level of your co-workers if they are not delivering quality product .
Unless you 're happy working long hours and weekends , set reasonable limits on work hours that you 'll only bypass under extraordinary circumstances ( you 'll need to have some notion in advance what qualifies so that is n't abused ) .
Your co-workers and boss will respect those limits if you 're clear about them and demonstrate a high level of dedication during work hours .
Until you have specialized skills and experience that entitle you to become choosy about work assignments , consider your current career stage one of " paying your dues " and hopefully you wo n't waste the resulting seniority like your co-workers .
Whatever you do , do n't waste your time worrying about what your co-workers do .
Find ways to carve out areas of responsibility that you own and prioritize your efforts such that your best efforts are always spent on those projects that your leadership chain knows are owned by you .
Be conscious of what your boss gets credit for as well and be sure to prioritize accordingly - but do n't make a show about it and be careful about that which might be interpreted by your co-workers as making them look bad or " sucking up " - over time you will find that it 's possible to get the respect of your peers and your co-workers as well , particularly if you take the to socialize with your co-workers--you still need their experience and they 'll share the important details you need if you gain their trust on a personal level .
Above all , be realistic .
While you need to pay lip service to all the idealistic things your corporate culture and individual upbringing values , your actions should be based on realistic assumptions about what 's possible .
Sometimes extraordinary things will happen , but planning for the extraordinary is usually a recipe for failure .
In short , quit wasting time worrying about everyone else and recognize that entry-level positions always come with organizational dysfunction .
Learn everything you can in this position so you can become qualified for a better one down the road .
Repeat ad infinitum and you will have a full and rewarding career .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Given the amount of quality experienced talent in the marketplace right now, you wouldn't have been hired in the first place if the hiring organization wasn't fairly dysfunctional to begin with.
In this business, a small team of experienced and well-compensated developers with a strong work ethic (the latter doesn't necessarily have anything to do with hours they put in - only measured by their work product) will run circles around teams twice their size.
Teams like this simply don't hire new grads (unless the new grad is already well known to them and proven themselves through an internship or open source project).
As the economy has slowed, most organizations have cut back compensation increases, reduced or eliminated bonuses, and perhaps implemented a week or two of furlough - this serves to further demotivate those who survived the last round of job cuts and makes plain the reality that in general hard work is not itself rewarded with anything but more hard work.
You'll continue to struggle in your current position until you accept that the nature of your relationship with your employer is mutually parasitic.
That said, you don't need to sink to the level of your co-workers if they are not delivering quality product.
Unless you're happy working long hours and weekends, set reasonable limits on work hours that you'll only bypass under extraordinary circumstances (you'll need to have some notion in advance what qualifies so that isn't abused).
Your co-workers and boss will respect those limits if you're clear about them and demonstrate a high level of dedication during work hours.
Until you have specialized skills and experience that entitle you to become choosy about work assignments, consider your current career stage one of "paying your dues" and hopefully you won't waste the resulting seniority like your co-workers.
Whatever you do, don't waste your time worrying about what your co-workers do.
Find ways to carve out areas of responsibility that you own and prioritize your efforts such that your best efforts are always spent on those projects that your leadership chain knows are owned by you.
Be conscious of what your boss gets credit for as well and be sure to prioritize accordingly - but don't make a show about it and be careful about that which might be interpreted by your co-workers as making them look bad or "sucking up" - over time you will find that it's possible to get the respect of your peers and your co-workers as well, particularly if you take the to socialize with your co-workers--you still need their experience and they'll share the important details you need if you gain their trust on a personal level.
Above all, be realistic.
While you need to pay lip service to all the idealistic things your corporate culture and individual upbringing values, your actions should be based on realistic assumptions about what's possible.
Sometimes extraordinary things will happen, but planning for the extraordinary is usually a recipe for failure.
In short, quit wasting time worrying about everyone else and recognize that entry-level positions always come with organizational dysfunction.
Learn everything you can in this position so you can become qualified for a better one down the road.
Repeat ad infinitum and you will have a full and rewarding career.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669612</id>
	<title>The real reason for America's decline</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262793840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I feel for the OP. I have a similar situation. Working 4 hour days is fine and dandy if the code is delivered clean and on time. Let's face it, the majority of americans have the holier than thou attitude and have weak work ethics. We have many developers from right here in the US. We also have about 10 H1-B's from India, Pakistan, and other parts of Asia. Percentage-wise, the H1-B's do an overall better job, I hate to say. Why? Because, their ass gets deported if they lose that job. You can find them almost always chugging away and they are just happy to be there. They will always stop and talk with you, but when they have a job to do, they concentrate on it.</p><p>I'm not saying that American born and bred automatically leads to mediocrity, but the percentages are not in our favor.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I feel for the OP .
I have a similar situation .
Working 4 hour days is fine and dandy if the code is delivered clean and on time .
Let 's face it , the majority of americans have the holier than thou attitude and have weak work ethics .
We have many developers from right here in the US .
We also have about 10 H1-B 's from India , Pakistan , and other parts of Asia .
Percentage-wise , the H1-B 's do an overall better job , I hate to say .
Why ? Because , their ass gets deported if they lose that job .
You can find them almost always chugging away and they are just happy to be there .
They will always stop and talk with you , but when they have a job to do , they concentrate on it.I 'm not saying that American born and bred automatically leads to mediocrity , but the percentages are not in our favor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I feel for the OP.
I have a similar situation.
Working 4 hour days is fine and dandy if the code is delivered clean and on time.
Let's face it, the majority of americans have the holier than thou attitude and have weak work ethics.
We have many developers from right here in the US.
We also have about 10 H1-B's from India, Pakistan, and other parts of Asia.
Percentage-wise, the H1-B's do an overall better job, I hate to say.
Why? Because, their ass gets deported if they lose that job.
You can find them almost always chugging away and they are just happy to be there.
They will always stop and talk with you, but when they have a job to do, they concentrate on it.I'm not saying that American born and bred automatically leads to mediocrity, but the percentages are not in our favor.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670916</id>
	<title>I agree.</title>
	<author>DarthVain</author>
	<datestamp>1262798700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nothing ticks me off more than watching coworkers have a pissing match about how much overtime they put in and how much they come in on the weekend to work. The then look down on me for actually sticking to scheduled work hours, like I am not working hard enough or something. I always feel like saying, the reason is I don't waste time all day screwing around and I get my stuff done on time. If I can't it is because I have been assigned more work that is reasonable, or a deadline that is unattainable. In some instances I will work OT or on weekends if I feel it was an unavoidable and only the occasional thing. More often than not, the reason is some other douchebag is holding things up by wasting time, or not being organized, and I don't see how that is my problem. I will deal with work during work hours, and there is always more work to be done.</p><p>Anyway, a bit of a sore spot with me. I never actually say it, but the reason some of these people need to work 12 hours of their weekend (supposedly, as no one else is there) is because they don't work efficentially during normal work hours. I love how in our culture this is looked upon as being good, all the while these people collect either more money or time in lieu of for their efforts, while those that are able to handle their assigned tasks in a more reasonable manner are looked down upon, and are thought to not have the same work ethic. Nothing could be farther than the truth.</p><p>I am always reminded of the Seinfeld episode where Castanza figures out, that if he acts like he is angry and busy all day, people will leave him alone, and assume he is working hard thus allowing him to screw off. I see people pulling this everyday and the Manager buying it hook line and sinker.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nothing ticks me off more than watching coworkers have a pissing match about how much overtime they put in and how much they come in on the weekend to work .
The then look down on me for actually sticking to scheduled work hours , like I am not working hard enough or something .
I always feel like saying , the reason is I do n't waste time all day screwing around and I get my stuff done on time .
If I ca n't it is because I have been assigned more work that is reasonable , or a deadline that is unattainable .
In some instances I will work OT or on weekends if I feel it was an unavoidable and only the occasional thing .
More often than not , the reason is some other douchebag is holding things up by wasting time , or not being organized , and I do n't see how that is my problem .
I will deal with work during work hours , and there is always more work to be done.Anyway , a bit of a sore spot with me .
I never actually say it , but the reason some of these people need to work 12 hours of their weekend ( supposedly , as no one else is there ) is because they do n't work efficentially during normal work hours .
I love how in our culture this is looked upon as being good , all the while these people collect either more money or time in lieu of for their efforts , while those that are able to handle their assigned tasks in a more reasonable manner are looked down upon , and are thought to not have the same work ethic .
Nothing could be farther than the truth.I am always reminded of the Seinfeld episode where Castanza figures out , that if he acts like he is angry and busy all day , people will leave him alone , and assume he is working hard thus allowing him to screw off .
I see people pulling this everyday and the Manager buying it hook line and sinker .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nothing ticks me off more than watching coworkers have a pissing match about how much overtime they put in and how much they come in on the weekend to work.
The then look down on me for actually sticking to scheduled work hours, like I am not working hard enough or something.
I always feel like saying, the reason is I don't waste time all day screwing around and I get my stuff done on time.
If I can't it is because I have been assigned more work that is reasonable, or a deadline that is unattainable.
In some instances I will work OT or on weekends if I feel it was an unavoidable and only the occasional thing.
More often than not, the reason is some other douchebag is holding things up by wasting time, or not being organized, and I don't see how that is my problem.
I will deal with work during work hours, and there is always more work to be done.Anyway, a bit of a sore spot with me.
I never actually say it, but the reason some of these people need to work 12 hours of their weekend (supposedly, as no one else is there) is because they don't work efficentially during normal work hours.
I love how in our culture this is looked upon as being good, all the while these people collect either more money or time in lieu of for their efforts, while those that are able to handle their assigned tasks in a more reasonable manner are looked down upon, and are thought to not have the same work ethic.
Nothing could be farther than the truth.I am always reminded of the Seinfeld episode where Castanza figures out, that if he acts like he is angry and busy all day, people will leave him alone, and assume he is working hard thus allowing him to screw off.
I see people pulling this everyday and the Manager buying it hook line and sinker.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668800</id>
	<title>Here, watch this.</title>
	<author>embedded\_tom</author>
	<datestamp>1262789580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It will explain everything you need to know: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office\_space/" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office\_space/</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It will explain everything you need to know : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office \ _space/ [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It will explain everything you need to know: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office\_space/ [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30671816</id>
	<title>Job security through mediocrity</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1262802300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My previous position was as a consultant at FEI. There were several other people on the project, but I was the only one who consistently fixed defects quickly. One day the project manager (who had it in for me anyway) came into my cubicle after the status meeting and said "You've completed everything defect assigned to you? Good... you're off the project! Go home immediately." The other contractor, who had several dozen pending defects he hadn't touched in months, remained there for another year. When your manager is trying to drag the project out as long as possible because he knows HE will be let go as soon as it is completed, then being extremely productive can actually be damaging to your career.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My previous position was as a consultant at FEI .
There were several other people on the project , but I was the only one who consistently fixed defects quickly .
One day the project manager ( who had it in for me anyway ) came into my cubicle after the status meeting and said " You 've completed everything defect assigned to you ?
Good... you 're off the project !
Go home immediately .
" The other contractor , who had several dozen pending defects he had n't touched in months , remained there for another year .
When your manager is trying to drag the project out as long as possible because he knows HE will be let go as soon as it is completed , then being extremely productive can actually be damaging to your career .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My previous position was as a consultant at FEI.
There were several other people on the project, but I was the only one who consistently fixed defects quickly.
One day the project manager (who had it in for me anyway) came into my cubicle after the status meeting and said "You've completed everything defect assigned to you?
Good... you're off the project!
Go home immediately.
" The other contractor, who had several dozen pending defects he hadn't touched in months, remained there for another year.
When your manager is trying to drag the project out as long as possible because he knows HE will be let go as soon as it is completed, then being extremely productive can actually be damaging to your career.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668824</id>
	<title>Lay low</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262789760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... or you'll burn out faster than you'd think.<br>Also working around the clock is not what get's you results - is use up to 90\% of my time for thinking about solving my problem, the DOING is only just 10\%.</p><p>And stop citing "this economy" - it's a big bluff to get people in shakles again.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... or you 'll burn out faster than you 'd think.Also working around the clock is not what get 's you results - is use up to 90 \ % of my time for thinking about solving my problem , the DOING is only just 10 \ % .And stop citing " this economy " - it 's a big bluff to get people in shakles again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... or you'll burn out faster than you'd think.Also working around the clock is not what get's you results - is use up to 90\% of my time for thinking about solving my problem, the DOING is only just 10\%.And stop citing "this economy" - it's a big bluff to get people in shakles again.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668996</id>
	<title>Become a Star</title>
	<author>b4upoo</author>
	<datestamp>1262790840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>          If you prove to be a super star you can do almost anything at work as long as you keep making them money or saving the day. But it is a dangerous game to play as there are other potential wizards who seek the same status. You see this clearly in sales orgs where the big number salesman can get away with anything short of rape or mayhem in the office.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you prove to be a super star you can do almost anything at work as long as you keep making them money or saving the day .
But it is a dangerous game to play as there are other potential wizards who seek the same status .
You see this clearly in sales orgs where the big number salesman can get away with anything short of rape or mayhem in the office .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>          If you prove to be a super star you can do almost anything at work as long as you keep making them money or saving the day.
But it is a dangerous game to play as there are other potential wizards who seek the same status.
You see this clearly in sales orgs where the big number salesman can get away with anything short of rape or mayhem in the office.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668900</id>
	<title>I was you once</title>
	<author>YojimboJango</author>
	<datestamp>1262790180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I first started out I also pulled the 80 hour week to get my projects done on time.  My boss who's been doing this for about 30 years sat me down one day and told me one thing that fixed me.</p><p>"I get more work done in the shower in the morning than I do all the rest of the day.  The whole day I'm filling my head with problems, then I go home and go to bed, and when I wake up I get a clear perspective on the problem.  Then I do the easy part and come to work and write it down.  Then fill my head with problems again.  There's no point to working a 16 hour shift banging your head against the wall.  Just relax a bit and it'll come."</p><p>It's words of wisdom.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I first started out I also pulled the 80 hour week to get my projects done on time .
My boss who 's been doing this for about 30 years sat me down one day and told me one thing that fixed me .
" I get more work done in the shower in the morning than I do all the rest of the day .
The whole day I 'm filling my head with problems , then I go home and go to bed , and when I wake up I get a clear perspective on the problem .
Then I do the easy part and come to work and write it down .
Then fill my head with problems again .
There 's no point to working a 16 hour shift banging your head against the wall .
Just relax a bit and it 'll come .
" It 's words of wisdom .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I first started out I also pulled the 80 hour week to get my projects done on time.
My boss who's been doing this for about 30 years sat me down one day and told me one thing that fixed me.
"I get more work done in the shower in the morning than I do all the rest of the day.
The whole day I'm filling my head with problems, then I go home and go to bed, and when I wake up I get a clear perspective on the problem.
Then I do the easy part and come to work and write it down.
Then fill my head with problems again.
There's no point to working a 16 hour shift banging your head against the wall.
Just relax a bit and it'll come.
"It's words of wisdom.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669860</id>
	<title>Re:Hang Gliding while being paid to write code...</title>
	<author>Anarke\_Incarnate</author>
	<datestamp>1262795100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah....NO missed deadlines or shoddy work from outsourced companies has been reported.</p><p>In other news...Nothing like this happens from outsourcing:</p><p>We did not write the code to your specifications because it did not include pseudo-code and all the appropriate functions, diagrams and specifics that you asked for.  We are glad to charge you for our effort, however.  Remember, we have 3,000 coders here who have 15yrs experience and would love to work for $11US/hr......</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah....NO missed deadlines or shoddy work from outsourced companies has been reported.In other news...Nothing like this happens from outsourcing : We did not write the code to your specifications because it did not include pseudo-code and all the appropriate functions , diagrams and specifics that you asked for .
We are glad to charge you for our effort , however .
Remember , we have 3,000 coders here who have 15yrs experience and would love to work for $ 11US/hr..... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah....NO missed deadlines or shoddy work from outsourced companies has been reported.In other news...Nothing like this happens from outsourcing:We did not write the code to your specifications because it did not include pseudo-code and all the appropriate functions, diagrams and specifics that you asked for.
We are glad to charge you for our effort, however.
Remember, we have 3,000 coders here who have 15yrs experience and would love to work for $11US/hr......</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668254</id>
	<title>Depends where you live</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1262785680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I worked in England, a typical day for my coworkers consisted of: taking child to school that starts much later than US schools (roughly 9 am), taking public transportation to work, getting there at roughly 10 am, nipping off to the pub for a bite to eat, some tea, and a beer (or three) from about 12-1:30, then leaving for the day at 3.  Yet my coworkers were just as productive as my current coworkers in the US are, even though we work a full 8 hours.</p><p>While this post is slightly tongue-in-cheek, the reality remains that "hard work" is a relative term across global economies and cannot be measured in hours logged on your timecard.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I worked in England , a typical day for my coworkers consisted of : taking child to school that starts much later than US schools ( roughly 9 am ) , taking public transportation to work , getting there at roughly 10 am , nipping off to the pub for a bite to eat , some tea , and a beer ( or three ) from about 12-1 : 30 , then leaving for the day at 3 .
Yet my coworkers were just as productive as my current coworkers in the US are , even though we work a full 8 hours.While this post is slightly tongue-in-cheek , the reality remains that " hard work " is a relative term across global economies and can not be measured in hours logged on your timecard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I worked in England, a typical day for my coworkers consisted of: taking child to school that starts much later than US schools (roughly 9 am), taking public transportation to work, getting there at roughly 10 am, nipping off to the pub for a bite to eat, some tea, and a beer (or three) from about 12-1:30, then leaving for the day at 3.
Yet my coworkers were just as productive as my current coworkers in the US are, even though we work a full 8 hours.While this post is slightly tongue-in-cheek, the reality remains that "hard work" is a relative term across global economies and cannot be measured in hours logged on your timecard.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670108</id>
	<title>Use your work ethic to your advantage</title>
	<author>osgeek</author>
	<datestamp>1262795820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ignore the haters telling you to relax and join the herd.  They wouldn't know what a hard day's work or real productivity looks like anyhow, so you can't turn to them for good advice on making use of your solid work ethic.  They'll do nothing but try to bring you down to their level because you make them look bad or face the uncomfortable truth that they suck at their chosen profession.  Look to people giving you positive advice that will let you grow and succeed.</p><p>That said, don't bust your ass doing a buch of work for lazy coworkers who will take credit for your sweat and/or managers too corrupt or stupid to notice what you're doing.  These people will suck your soul and waste your valuable time during these years when you could be learning so much about how to reach new levels of personal performance.  If you're going to stay where you are, you need to "manage up" to see if you can start getting noticed for the job you're doing.  Avoid the temptation to take on a lot of small tasks in your current environment.  You'll never get any more credit for all the hard work than the guy next to you who simply manages to look busy but web surfs half the day.  Get your manager's agreement to break down the current project into specific pieces that you can take ownership of and deliver apart from your coworkers.  That way, when you deliver your piece it's obvious who did it, how well it works, and how on time it was.  On a technical level, it's also great to break things out anyway to avoid overly tight component coupling.</p><p>Maneuvering things so that you can better benefit from your work ethic involves some politicking, which sucks, but you don't want to be used by those around you and never get anything out of it.</p><p>If you spend a few months working the personal ownership angle and it gets you nowhere, then you may need to cut your losses and switch to another company.  My personal preference is to work at small companies where you can negotiate for better merit-based rewards like stock options, profit sharing, or performance bonuses.  At a small company, your efforts will be obvious and your opportunities to learn and succeed will be greater.  You'll also find more people like you from whom you can learn at small companies.  They'll be looking to create successful products rather than to just punch in to collect a paycheck.  Screw-ups normally latch on to the big companies where they can fade into the cubicle farms.</p><p>Look at the pathetic work ethic of your current environment as an opportunity to outshine them and people like them.</p><p>Good luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ignore the haters telling you to relax and join the herd .
They would n't know what a hard day 's work or real productivity looks like anyhow , so you ca n't turn to them for good advice on making use of your solid work ethic .
They 'll do nothing but try to bring you down to their level because you make them look bad or face the uncomfortable truth that they suck at their chosen profession .
Look to people giving you positive advice that will let you grow and succeed.That said , do n't bust your ass doing a buch of work for lazy coworkers who will take credit for your sweat and/or managers too corrupt or stupid to notice what you 're doing .
These people will suck your soul and waste your valuable time during these years when you could be learning so much about how to reach new levels of personal performance .
If you 're going to stay where you are , you need to " manage up " to see if you can start getting noticed for the job you 're doing .
Avoid the temptation to take on a lot of small tasks in your current environment .
You 'll never get any more credit for all the hard work than the guy next to you who simply manages to look busy but web surfs half the day .
Get your manager 's agreement to break down the current project into specific pieces that you can take ownership of and deliver apart from your coworkers .
That way , when you deliver your piece it 's obvious who did it , how well it works , and how on time it was .
On a technical level , it 's also great to break things out anyway to avoid overly tight component coupling.Maneuvering things so that you can better benefit from your work ethic involves some politicking , which sucks , but you do n't want to be used by those around you and never get anything out of it.If you spend a few months working the personal ownership angle and it gets you nowhere , then you may need to cut your losses and switch to another company .
My personal preference is to work at small companies where you can negotiate for better merit-based rewards like stock options , profit sharing , or performance bonuses .
At a small company , your efforts will be obvious and your opportunities to learn and succeed will be greater .
You 'll also find more people like you from whom you can learn at small companies .
They 'll be looking to create successful products rather than to just punch in to collect a paycheck .
Screw-ups normally latch on to the big companies where they can fade into the cubicle farms.Look at the pathetic work ethic of your current environment as an opportunity to outshine them and people like them.Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ignore the haters telling you to relax and join the herd.
They wouldn't know what a hard day's work or real productivity looks like anyhow, so you can't turn to them for good advice on making use of your solid work ethic.
They'll do nothing but try to bring you down to their level because you make them look bad or face the uncomfortable truth that they suck at their chosen profession.
Look to people giving you positive advice that will let you grow and succeed.That said, don't bust your ass doing a buch of work for lazy coworkers who will take credit for your sweat and/or managers too corrupt or stupid to notice what you're doing.
These people will suck your soul and waste your valuable time during these years when you could be learning so much about how to reach new levels of personal performance.
If you're going to stay where you are, you need to "manage up" to see if you can start getting noticed for the job you're doing.
Avoid the temptation to take on a lot of small tasks in your current environment.
You'll never get any more credit for all the hard work than the guy next to you who simply manages to look busy but web surfs half the day.
Get your manager's agreement to break down the current project into specific pieces that you can take ownership of and deliver apart from your coworkers.
That way, when you deliver your piece it's obvious who did it, how well it works, and how on time it was.
On a technical level, it's also great to break things out anyway to avoid overly tight component coupling.Maneuvering things so that you can better benefit from your work ethic involves some politicking, which sucks, but you don't want to be used by those around you and never get anything out of it.If you spend a few months working the personal ownership angle and it gets you nowhere, then you may need to cut your losses and switch to another company.
My personal preference is to work at small companies where you can negotiate for better merit-based rewards like stock options, profit sharing, or performance bonuses.
At a small company, your efforts will be obvious and your opportunities to learn and succeed will be greater.
You'll also find more people like you from whom you can learn at small companies.
They'll be looking to create successful products rather than to just punch in to collect a paycheck.
Screw-ups normally latch on to the big companies where they can fade into the cubicle farms.Look at the pathetic work ethic of your current environment as an opportunity to outshine them and people like them.Good luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667330</id>
	<title>Peter.... how's it going?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262776080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Get ready to work Sundays.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Get ready to work Sundays .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get ready to work Sundays.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30690652</id>
	<title>Re:Take it from an old timer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262882700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Exactly;  working in a major Canadian telco, it's clear to me that the company's ongoing belt-tightening program, like the elimination of all salary reviews last year, is leading directly to this reactive behaviour.</p><p>The company has laid off so many people, off-shored so many roles, and left the remaining people with lower benefits and an unmanageable workload;  the result is that if all management cares about is uptime and cost, then projects slip, nothing is maintained, all systems erode and eventually fall apart, and the workforce becomes paralyzed by apathy.  As a new member of the team, I at first marvelled at the incredulity of it all, but you get used to it and like many others.  My boss told me that in order to get a raise, I would have to leave the company, and then re-apply for the same job, more senior title, and negotiate on the next pay tier.</p><p>You need to give less, or grow extremely jaded about the way work treats you.  But if you're extremely driven and it's all about the career, then start apply for another job, and don't sell yourself short.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly ; working in a major Canadian telco , it 's clear to me that the company 's ongoing belt-tightening program , like the elimination of all salary reviews last year , is leading directly to this reactive behaviour.The company has laid off so many people , off-shored so many roles , and left the remaining people with lower benefits and an unmanageable workload ; the result is that if all management cares about is uptime and cost , then projects slip , nothing is maintained , all systems erode and eventually fall apart , and the workforce becomes paralyzed by apathy .
As a new member of the team , I at first marvelled at the incredulity of it all , but you get used to it and like many others .
My boss told me that in order to get a raise , I would have to leave the company , and then re-apply for the same job , more senior title , and negotiate on the next pay tier.You need to give less , or grow extremely jaded about the way work treats you .
But if you 're extremely driven and it 's all about the career , then start apply for another job , and do n't sell yourself short .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly;  working in a major Canadian telco, it's clear to me that the company's ongoing belt-tightening program, like the elimination of all salary reviews last year, is leading directly to this reactive behaviour.The company has laid off so many people, off-shored so many roles, and left the remaining people with lower benefits and an unmanageable workload;  the result is that if all management cares about is uptime and cost, then projects slip, nothing is maintained, all systems erode and eventually fall apart, and the workforce becomes paralyzed by apathy.
As a new member of the team, I at first marvelled at the incredulity of it all, but you get used to it and like many others.
My boss told me that in order to get a raise, I would have to leave the company, and then re-apply for the same job, more senior title, and negotiate on the next pay tier.You need to give less, or grow extremely jaded about the way work treats you.
But if you're extremely driven and it's all about the career, then start apply for another job, and don't sell yourself short.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669492</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670664</id>
	<title>Sit down,</title>
	<author>steweddude</author>
	<datestamp>1262797860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>shut up, watch, and learn.  Spending years dealing with unreasonable drop-dead dates developed by clueless PMs and managers who pulled the date out of their butt instead of evaluating the true effort to complete the project THEN set the date, then you can complain.  Spending years rewriting/reconfiguring your work because the requirements change but the date doesn't, then you can complain.  Spend years dealing with people who have to finish their task before yours can be completed but since you are the last guy, you get the blame if it's late, then you can complain.   Spend years dealing with vendors who promise "our product can do that!" but turns out that the limitations of the tool are not discovered before some non-techie manager buys it and all you have to do is "make it work", then you can complain.  So, have a cup of coffee, mind your business, and enjoy your halcyon days.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>shut up , watch , and learn .
Spending years dealing with unreasonable drop-dead dates developed by clueless PMs and managers who pulled the date out of their butt instead of evaluating the true effort to complete the project THEN set the date , then you can complain .
Spending years rewriting/reconfiguring your work because the requirements change but the date does n't , then you can complain .
Spend years dealing with people who have to finish their task before yours can be completed but since you are the last guy , you get the blame if it 's late , then you can complain .
Spend years dealing with vendors who promise " our product can do that !
" but turns out that the limitations of the tool are not discovered before some non-techie manager buys it and all you have to do is " make it work " , then you can complain .
So , have a cup of coffee , mind your business , and enjoy your halcyon days .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>shut up, watch, and learn.
Spending years dealing with unreasonable drop-dead dates developed by clueless PMs and managers who pulled the date out of their butt instead of evaluating the true effort to complete the project THEN set the date, then you can complain.
Spending years rewriting/reconfiguring your work because the requirements change but the date doesn't, then you can complain.
Spend years dealing with people who have to finish their task before yours can be completed but since you are the last guy, you get the blame if it's late, then you can complain.
Spend years dealing with vendors who promise "our product can do that!
" but turns out that the limitations of the tool are not discovered before some non-techie manager buys it and all you have to do is "make it work", then you can complain.
So, have a cup of coffee, mind your business, and enjoy your halcyon days.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667700</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>SlashDread</author>
	<datestamp>1262780040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"The guy even says they miss deadlines and the code they produce is crap. Of course people rarely work full out for an entire day, but he's clearly describing a situation far worse than normal"</p><p>Clearly you think prgramming is normally on time and bug free. Snicker.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" The guy even says they miss deadlines and the code they produce is crap .
Of course people rarely work full out for an entire day , but he 's clearly describing a situation far worse than normal " Clearly you think prgramming is normally on time and bug free .
Snicker .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"The guy even says they miss deadlines and the code they produce is crap.
Of course people rarely work full out for an entire day, but he's clearly describing a situation far worse than normal"Clearly you think prgramming is normally on time and bug free.
Snicker.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667862</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>Mr0bvious</author>
	<datestamp>1262781780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You guys are a bunch of lazy assholes.</p></div><p>pfft!</p><p><div class="quote"><p> The guy even says they miss deadlines and the code they produce is crap.  Of course people rarely work full out for an entire day, but he's clearly describing a situation far worse than normal.</p></div><p>Maybe, but perhaps he's describing the worst of what he sees? - Probably not reflective of the <strong>whole</strong> organization.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>The organization obviously lacks leadership and focus because tolerance of this sort of behavior comes from the top.</p></div><p>Perhaps the organization values high staff retention and good staff morale. High retention typically means higher domain expertise and better team relationships.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work. Everybody works hard.</p></div><p>Please explain - I see egos in every industry, nothing special about coders.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>There's nothing special about coding.</p></div><p>Compared to what? It's nothing like a lot of jobs.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>
  My workday include tasks that are both physically and mentally taxing, I often juggle several tasks at once and am held to a very high standard of quality. Man up, buckle down and produce because you don't work in a vacuum.</p></div><p>
A few things that make coding special - not unique - but still special.
</p><p>1) The knowledge that a coder (or a Software Engineer if you will) accumulate from the <strong>individual</strong> tasks they perform is of extreme value - high staff retention is crucial to maintaining this knowledge. Typically, this knowledge simply can not be captured and passed on (some live in a fantasy land whey they believe it can - but they are plain old wrong)
</p><p>2) A coders job does not start and finish when the clock on and off for the day - there is usual (and expected - as in some other disciplines also) continual problem solving that occurs all day and all night - remember most coding is problem solving. I certainly do not stop when I leave the office - this is just where my output hits my employers disks.
</p><p>3) IT, software, programming and computer science is a rapidly changing and advancing domain and requires continual personal improvement and training - this typically happens in our personal time - coders typically live their career - despite how <strong>you</strong> perceive their behaviour.
</p><p>Besides all this guff, and as has been stated - coders are not robots - their socialising and what you think is "time wasting" is part of the way coders work - and it works.</p><p>
If I was to simply just sit and stare at my screen trying to solve problem after problem, I'd get no where - my time away from the keyboard is when most my real work is done.
</p><p>Not that I feel I need to justify myself to you, but you have a narrow minded view - their management is most probably tolerant of this behaviour because it works out best for all.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You guys are a bunch of lazy assholes.pfft !
The guy even says they miss deadlines and the code they produce is crap .
Of course people rarely work full out for an entire day , but he 's clearly describing a situation far worse than normal.Maybe , but perhaps he 's describing the worst of what he sees ?
- Probably not reflective of the whole organization.The organization obviously lacks leadership and focus because tolerance of this sort of behavior comes from the top.Perhaps the organization values high staff retention and good staff morale .
High retention typically means higher domain expertise and better team relationships.Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work .
Everybody works hard.Please explain - I see egos in every industry , nothing special about coders.There 's nothing special about coding.Compared to what ?
It 's nothing like a lot of jobs .
My workday include tasks that are both physically and mentally taxing , I often juggle several tasks at once and am held to a very high standard of quality .
Man up , buckle down and produce because you do n't work in a vacuum .
A few things that make coding special - not unique - but still special .
1 ) The knowledge that a coder ( or a Software Engineer if you will ) accumulate from the individual tasks they perform is of extreme value - high staff retention is crucial to maintaining this knowledge .
Typically , this knowledge simply can not be captured and passed on ( some live in a fantasy land whey they believe it can - but they are plain old wrong ) 2 ) A coders job does not start and finish when the clock on and off for the day - there is usual ( and expected - as in some other disciplines also ) continual problem solving that occurs all day and all night - remember most coding is problem solving .
I certainly do not stop when I leave the office - this is just where my output hits my employers disks .
3 ) IT , software , programming and computer science is a rapidly changing and advancing domain and requires continual personal improvement and training - this typically happens in our personal time - coders typically live their career - despite how you perceive their behaviour .
Besides all this guff , and as has been stated - coders are not robots - their socialising and what you think is " time wasting " is part of the way coders work - and it works .
If I was to simply just sit and stare at my screen trying to solve problem after problem , I 'd get no where - my time away from the keyboard is when most my real work is done .
Not that I feel I need to justify myself to you , but you have a narrow minded view - their management is most probably tolerant of this behaviour because it works out best for all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You guys are a bunch of lazy assholes.pfft!
The guy even says they miss deadlines and the code they produce is crap.
Of course people rarely work full out for an entire day, but he's clearly describing a situation far worse than normal.Maybe, but perhaps he's describing the worst of what he sees?
- Probably not reflective of the whole organization.The organization obviously lacks leadership and focus because tolerance of this sort of behavior comes from the top.Perhaps the organization values high staff retention and good staff morale.
High retention typically means higher domain expertise and better team relationships.Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work.
Everybody works hard.Please explain - I see egos in every industry, nothing special about coders.There's nothing special about coding.Compared to what?
It's nothing like a lot of jobs.
My workday include tasks that are both physically and mentally taxing, I often juggle several tasks at once and am held to a very high standard of quality.
Man up, buckle down and produce because you don't work in a vacuum.
A few things that make coding special - not unique - but still special.
1) The knowledge that a coder (or a Software Engineer if you will) accumulate from the individual tasks they perform is of extreme value - high staff retention is crucial to maintaining this knowledge.
Typically, this knowledge simply can not be captured and passed on (some live in a fantasy land whey they believe it can - but they are plain old wrong)
2) A coders job does not start and finish when the clock on and off for the day - there is usual (and expected - as in some other disciplines also) continual problem solving that occurs all day and all night - remember most coding is problem solving.
I certainly do not stop when I leave the office - this is just where my output hits my employers disks.
3) IT, software, programming and computer science is a rapidly changing and advancing domain and requires continual personal improvement and training - this typically happens in our personal time - coders typically live their career - despite how you perceive their behaviour.
Besides all this guff, and as has been stated - coders are not robots - their socialising and what you think is "time wasting" is part of the way coders work - and it works.
If I was to simply just sit and stare at my screen trying to solve problem after problem, I'd get no where - my time away from the keyboard is when most my real work is done.
Not that I feel I need to justify myself to you, but you have a narrow minded view - their management is most probably tolerant of this behaviour because it works out best for all.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669388</id>
	<title>Push for adopting a software development model</title>
	<author>lena\_10326</author>
	<datestamp>1262792760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Is my situation unique or is it common across the industry?</p></div></blockquote><p>Not unique but not extremely common. Your team is clearly broken and your management isn't being measured against stated goals therefore your teammates are not measured by against their sub-goals. I presume the group is failing to record and reiterate--on a daily basis--the tasks identified to accomplish them. What you need is to adopt a system that surfaces who is working on what, what the volume of work is, and how much time is required. In our group, we use scrum to manage that. You can use something else but your team should be using <em>something</em> as opposed to nothing and allowing chaos to reign.</p><p>Scrum is not perfect and occasionally it can be annoying (such as after having a bad day and not having progress to show), but it's simple and incurs a relatively low overhead demand on bookkeeping. We use it because it helps everyone stay informed of the bigger picture by what user stories we're working on. It gives us a visual feel of how much work there is to do, helps enforce who is working on what, and shows our progress within the sprint at a daily resolution. It also helps develop a log of milestones, and improves individual productivity because it strongly emphasizes priorities first and makes it obvious who's getting things done, who's spinning their wheels on difficult problems, and who's blocked by teammate or external dependencies.</p><p>More importantly, it's designed for sculpting a team that self-organizes and self-manages. Since your team's management is weak, pushing for self-organization is important. You will need buy-in at many levels, but you may find if you write a proposal with your recommendation and argue why it's needed, you might flesh out supporters who needed prodding.</p><p>Doing this will show initiative and motivation. You will stand out amongst your more experienced but lazy teammates. A good developer provides well written recommendations that identifies a particular problem, argues why it is a problem, enumerates a list of solutions, and finishes by selecting one of them. Unless your recommendation is ridiculous, issuing it should give you a boost by showing you have leadership skills. Management not recognizing that would truly indicate a broken team.</p><p>Scrum is not likely to be done well unless someone on the team goes through the training, so if I were you I would recommend the team experiment with selecting and using a software development model (Agile/Scrum/XP/RUP/etc). Shipping a few developers off for training, or bringing in a trainer for a few days would be a good idea.</p><p>Give it a year. If in the end you cannot cause change, then log it as a learning experience and move on. Use what you saw to identify the same symptoms during your next job search.</p><blockquote><div><p>Being the 'new guy,' I get stuck with much of the weekend and after-hours grunt work when we inevitably miss deadlines or produce poor code</p></div></blockquote><p>The new guy always tends to get stuck with the less interesting or maintenance work. That's expected because you haven't proven your value or had a chance to build relationships. It can take time to learn the system before taking on high profile tasks, but it's absolutely unacceptable if they expect you to work more hours than they work. If you're pulling weekends and they aren't then that's an abusive situation. Part of getting ahead is showing leadership and drive, but the other part is knowing how to play the defensive game by proving due diligence on your part and pushing back when required.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is my situation unique or is it common across the industry ? Not unique but not extremely common .
Your team is clearly broken and your management is n't being measured against stated goals therefore your teammates are not measured by against their sub-goals .
I presume the group is failing to record and reiterate--on a daily basis--the tasks identified to accomplish them .
What you need is to adopt a system that surfaces who is working on what , what the volume of work is , and how much time is required .
In our group , we use scrum to manage that .
You can use something else but your team should be using something as opposed to nothing and allowing chaos to reign.Scrum is not perfect and occasionally it can be annoying ( such as after having a bad day and not having progress to show ) , but it 's simple and incurs a relatively low overhead demand on bookkeeping .
We use it because it helps everyone stay informed of the bigger picture by what user stories we 're working on .
It gives us a visual feel of how much work there is to do , helps enforce who is working on what , and shows our progress within the sprint at a daily resolution .
It also helps develop a log of milestones , and improves individual productivity because it strongly emphasizes priorities first and makes it obvious who 's getting things done , who 's spinning their wheels on difficult problems , and who 's blocked by teammate or external dependencies.More importantly , it 's designed for sculpting a team that self-organizes and self-manages .
Since your team 's management is weak , pushing for self-organization is important .
You will need buy-in at many levels , but you may find if you write a proposal with your recommendation and argue why it 's needed , you might flesh out supporters who needed prodding.Doing this will show initiative and motivation .
You will stand out amongst your more experienced but lazy teammates .
A good developer provides well written recommendations that identifies a particular problem , argues why it is a problem , enumerates a list of solutions , and finishes by selecting one of them .
Unless your recommendation is ridiculous , issuing it should give you a boost by showing you have leadership skills .
Management not recognizing that would truly indicate a broken team.Scrum is not likely to be done well unless someone on the team goes through the training , so if I were you I would recommend the team experiment with selecting and using a software development model ( Agile/Scrum/XP/RUP/etc ) .
Shipping a few developers off for training , or bringing in a trainer for a few days would be a good idea.Give it a year .
If in the end you can not cause change , then log it as a learning experience and move on .
Use what you saw to identify the same symptoms during your next job search.Being the 'new guy, ' I get stuck with much of the weekend and after-hours grunt work when we inevitably miss deadlines or produce poor codeThe new guy always tends to get stuck with the less interesting or maintenance work .
That 's expected because you have n't proven your value or had a chance to build relationships .
It can take time to learn the system before taking on high profile tasks , but it 's absolutely unacceptable if they expect you to work more hours than they work .
If you 're pulling weekends and they are n't then that 's an abusive situation .
Part of getting ahead is showing leadership and drive , but the other part is knowing how to play the defensive game by proving due diligence on your part and pushing back when required .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is my situation unique or is it common across the industry?Not unique but not extremely common.
Your team is clearly broken and your management isn't being measured against stated goals therefore your teammates are not measured by against their sub-goals.
I presume the group is failing to record and reiterate--on a daily basis--the tasks identified to accomplish them.
What you need is to adopt a system that surfaces who is working on what, what the volume of work is, and how much time is required.
In our group, we use scrum to manage that.
You can use something else but your team should be using something as opposed to nothing and allowing chaos to reign.Scrum is not perfect and occasionally it can be annoying (such as after having a bad day and not having progress to show), but it's simple and incurs a relatively low overhead demand on bookkeeping.
We use it because it helps everyone stay informed of the bigger picture by what user stories we're working on.
It gives us a visual feel of how much work there is to do, helps enforce who is working on what, and shows our progress within the sprint at a daily resolution.
It also helps develop a log of milestones, and improves individual productivity because it strongly emphasizes priorities first and makes it obvious who's getting things done, who's spinning their wheels on difficult problems, and who's blocked by teammate or external dependencies.More importantly, it's designed for sculpting a team that self-organizes and self-manages.
Since your team's management is weak, pushing for self-organization is important.
You will need buy-in at many levels, but you may find if you write a proposal with your recommendation and argue why it's needed, you might flesh out supporters who needed prodding.Doing this will show initiative and motivation.
You will stand out amongst your more experienced but lazy teammates.
A good developer provides well written recommendations that identifies a particular problem, argues why it is a problem, enumerates a list of solutions, and finishes by selecting one of them.
Unless your recommendation is ridiculous, issuing it should give you a boost by showing you have leadership skills.
Management not recognizing that would truly indicate a broken team.Scrum is not likely to be done well unless someone on the team goes through the training, so if I were you I would recommend the team experiment with selecting and using a software development model (Agile/Scrum/XP/RUP/etc).
Shipping a few developers off for training, or bringing in a trainer for a few days would be a good idea.Give it a year.
If in the end you cannot cause change, then log it as a learning experience and move on.
Use what you saw to identify the same symptoms during your next job search.Being the 'new guy,' I get stuck with much of the weekend and after-hours grunt work when we inevitably miss deadlines or produce poor codeThe new guy always tends to get stuck with the less interesting or maintenance work.
That's expected because you haven't proven your value or had a chance to build relationships.
It can take time to learn the system before taking on high profile tasks, but it's absolutely unacceptable if they expect you to work more hours than they work.
If you're pulling weekends and they aren't then that's an abusive situation.
Part of getting ahead is showing leadership and drive, but the other part is knowing how to play the defensive game by proving due diligence on your part and pushing back when required.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669880</id>
	<title>deadlines missed...</title>
	<author>EricX2</author>
	<datestamp>1262795100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If your company was really missing deadlines and producing poor code, somebody would have noticed and the situation would have changed. Our policy is as long as the work gets done, and we aren't doing anything illegal, whats the difference? Either you need to change or change jobs, if you get everybody else fired I'm sure you won't be too happy.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If your company was really missing deadlines and producing poor code , somebody would have noticed and the situation would have changed .
Our policy is as long as the work gets done , and we are n't doing anything illegal , whats the difference ?
Either you need to change or change jobs , if you get everybody else fired I 'm sure you wo n't be too happy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If your company was really missing deadlines and producing poor code, somebody would have noticed and the situation would have changed.
Our policy is as long as the work gets done, and we aren't doing anything illegal, whats the difference?
Either you need to change or change jobs, if you get everybody else fired I'm sure you won't be too happy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30674248</id>
	<title>All-too common</title>
	<author>mindstrm</author>
	<datestamp>1262769300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's all too common.</p><p>Don't fall into that trap though - learn good time management, set clear goals for yourself, keep a detailed log of how you spend your paid time.  Don't think of missing goals as bad- but do keep track of it.</p><p>In the end (which could be years) - such behavior is recognized, and will cover your ass in the end.</p><p>Stay calm, cool, collected, be clear about what who expects what from you (deliverables) - keep timelines and things communicated clearly, and stay focused on YOU.</p><p>That doesnt' mean abandon the team, as teams are often judged on what the team does, but, especially as the new guy, dont' rock the boat.  If a project fails, someone should be doing post-mortem analysis as to why, and those details matter. Those notes you keep will save your ass.    The guys with good record keeping come out on top, and advance faster in the long run. Don't get jealous, don't worry if you are doing more work than others - just think of it as practice (which it is).   KEEP RECORDS.  Did I mention keep records?<br>And be clear about deliverables.</p><p>Don't be passive-aggressive, and don't worry about what others are doing - just do good work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's all too common.Do n't fall into that trap though - learn good time management , set clear goals for yourself , keep a detailed log of how you spend your paid time .
Do n't think of missing goals as bad- but do keep track of it.In the end ( which could be years ) - such behavior is recognized , and will cover your ass in the end.Stay calm , cool , collected , be clear about what who expects what from you ( deliverables ) - keep timelines and things communicated clearly , and stay focused on YOU.That doesnt ' mean abandon the team , as teams are often judged on what the team does , but , especially as the new guy , dont ' rock the boat .
If a project fails , someone should be doing post-mortem analysis as to why , and those details matter .
Those notes you keep will save your ass .
The guys with good record keeping come out on top , and advance faster in the long run .
Do n't get jealous , do n't worry if you are doing more work than others - just think of it as practice ( which it is ) .
KEEP RECORDS .
Did I mention keep records ? And be clear about deliverables.Do n't be passive-aggressive , and do n't worry about what others are doing - just do good work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's all too common.Don't fall into that trap though - learn good time management, set clear goals for yourself, keep a detailed log of how you spend your paid time.
Don't think of missing goals as bad- but do keep track of it.In the end (which could be years) - such behavior is recognized, and will cover your ass in the end.Stay calm, cool, collected, be clear about what who expects what from you (deliverables) - keep timelines and things communicated clearly, and stay focused on YOU.That doesnt' mean abandon the team, as teams are often judged on what the team does, but, especially as the new guy, dont' rock the boat.
If a project fails, someone should be doing post-mortem analysis as to why, and those details matter.
Those notes you keep will save your ass.
The guys with good record keeping come out on top, and advance faster in the long run.
Don't get jealous, don't worry if you are doing more work than others - just think of it as practice (which it is).
KEEP RECORDS.
Did I mention keep records?And be clear about deliverables.Don't be passive-aggressive, and don't worry about what others are doing - just do good work.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670084</id>
	<title>Problem!=Industry:Problem==$hittyManagment</title>
	<author>Kungpaoshizi</author>
	<datestamp>1262795760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Seems to be everywhere I go.. The managers, who have their 2 year degree in business admin, think they're special, and waste all the time in the world because they have workers under them.
The workers under them, realize their boss has no idea what they're saying when they speak, so they know they can slack, and just throw a few big words in, to avert the attention from their boss's notice of lack of work.

And to the person who says 'people aren't robots' in reponse to this post, you are a douche.
Of course they're not, but the serious lack of work ethic has developed over the years, because the introduction of less intelligent managers over the years, because of the decreasing standards by which someone can achieve the term 'manager'.

I hate it all, it makes me want to just quit IT all together and become a chef in a diner in a town of 500.

But of course, I don't see a resolution for the IT industry to become what it should be as long as the immature "college = success" attitude exists.

But of course some have defied this reality, and that's what we call 'google' or any of the other umpteen companies, started by tech nerds, in their garages, with no degrees.

Those are truly the people who need to be managers.

And then "get to work" would cease to be, because it would become "hey let's try this!".</htmltext>
<tokenext>Seems to be everywhere I go.. The managers , who have their 2 year degree in business admin , think they 're special , and waste all the time in the world because they have workers under them .
The workers under them , realize their boss has no idea what they 're saying when they speak , so they know they can slack , and just throw a few big words in , to avert the attention from their boss 's notice of lack of work .
And to the person who says 'people are n't robots ' in reponse to this post , you are a douche .
Of course they 're not , but the serious lack of work ethic has developed over the years , because the introduction of less intelligent managers over the years , because of the decreasing standards by which someone can achieve the term 'manager' .
I hate it all , it makes me want to just quit IT all together and become a chef in a diner in a town of 500 .
But of course , I do n't see a resolution for the IT industry to become what it should be as long as the immature " college = success " attitude exists .
But of course some have defied this reality , and that 's what we call 'google ' or any of the other umpteen companies , started by tech nerds , in their garages , with no degrees .
Those are truly the people who need to be managers .
And then " get to work " would cease to be , because it would become " hey let 's try this !
" .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seems to be everywhere I go.. The managers, who have their 2 year degree in business admin, think they're special, and waste all the time in the world because they have workers under them.
The workers under them, realize their boss has no idea what they're saying when they speak, so they know they can slack, and just throw a few big words in, to avert the attention from their boss's notice of lack of work.
And to the person who says 'people aren't robots' in reponse to this post, you are a douche.
Of course they're not, but the serious lack of work ethic has developed over the years, because the introduction of less intelligent managers over the years, because of the decreasing standards by which someone can achieve the term 'manager'.
I hate it all, it makes me want to just quit IT all together and become a chef in a diner in a town of 500.
But of course, I don't see a resolution for the IT industry to become what it should be as long as the immature "college = success" attitude exists.
But of course some have defied this reality, and that's what we call 'google' or any of the other umpteen companies, started by tech nerds, in their garages, with no degrees.
Those are truly the people who need to be managers.
And then "get to work" would cease to be, because it would become "hey let's try this!
".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30671732</id>
	<title>circadian rhythm</title>
	<author>Slorf</author>
	<datestamp>1262802000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There's also a little something to do with Circadian rhythms.  Many programmers are night owls.  Corporate policies are based on on what's defined as a "Normal" work day schedule.  For type A executives, HR reps and others, this means 8 AM to 5 PM.  So naturally, that's when you're expected to be there.  In my company, we had a "flexible" arrangement where you could start your day anywhere between 7 and 9 AM.  It didn't seem to matter to HR whether you were at your most productive at that hour, they just wanted an arse warming the chair at that time.<br> <br>

That's still too early for me.  So I'd drag myself in usually closer to 9:30, sit in my chair and drink coffee and surf the web to try and stay awake until my brain came online.  The earliest that would happen was around 10:30 where I could start to manage some feeble output.  I didn't really kick into gear until 2 or so, and maximum productivity was from 4-7 PM.  It actually went from 4-11, but staying that late wasn't approved by the other policy maker, my wife.  Fortunately, my productivity late in the day more than made up for the farting around in the morning and I generally had far better and higher quality output than my morning people peers.  I'd also often log in from home later and put in a few tweaks thanks to creative thinking during the drive home.  These days I telecommute 100\% and set my own schedule and generally disregard the concept of "office hours" but it takes demonstrated performance to your employer to get to that point.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's also a little something to do with Circadian rhythms .
Many programmers are night owls .
Corporate policies are based on on what 's defined as a " Normal " work day schedule .
For type A executives , HR reps and others , this means 8 AM to 5 PM .
So naturally , that 's when you 're expected to be there .
In my company , we had a " flexible " arrangement where you could start your day anywhere between 7 and 9 AM .
It did n't seem to matter to HR whether you were at your most productive at that hour , they just wanted an arse warming the chair at that time .
That 's still too early for me .
So I 'd drag myself in usually closer to 9 : 30 , sit in my chair and drink coffee and surf the web to try and stay awake until my brain came online .
The earliest that would happen was around 10 : 30 where I could start to manage some feeble output .
I did n't really kick into gear until 2 or so , and maximum productivity was from 4-7 PM .
It actually went from 4-11 , but staying that late was n't approved by the other policy maker , my wife .
Fortunately , my productivity late in the day more than made up for the farting around in the morning and I generally had far better and higher quality output than my morning people peers .
I 'd also often log in from home later and put in a few tweaks thanks to creative thinking during the drive home .
These days I telecommute 100 \ % and set my own schedule and generally disregard the concept of " office hours " but it takes demonstrated performance to your employer to get to that point .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's also a little something to do with Circadian rhythms.
Many programmers are night owls.
Corporate policies are based on on what's defined as a "Normal" work day schedule.
For type A executives, HR reps and others, this means 8 AM to 5 PM.
So naturally, that's when you're expected to be there.
In my company, we had a "flexible" arrangement where you could start your day anywhere between 7 and 9 AM.
It didn't seem to matter to HR whether you were at your most productive at that hour, they just wanted an arse warming the chair at that time.
That's still too early for me.
So I'd drag myself in usually closer to 9:30, sit in my chair and drink coffee and surf the web to try and stay awake until my brain came online.
The earliest that would happen was around 10:30 where I could start to manage some feeble output.
I didn't really kick into gear until 2 or so, and maximum productivity was from 4-7 PM.
It actually went from 4-11, but staying that late wasn't approved by the other policy maker, my wife.
Fortunately, my productivity late in the day more than made up for the farting around in the morning and I generally had far better and higher quality output than my morning people peers.
I'd also often log in from home later and put in a few tweaks thanks to creative thinking during the drive home.
These days I telecommute 100\% and set my own schedule and generally disregard the concept of "office hours" but it takes demonstrated performance to your employer to get to that point.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668434</id>
	<title>It has to be that way.</title>
	<author>characterZer0</author>
	<datestamp>1262787180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If everybody worked hard for 40 hours a week, 25\% of the working population could do 100\% of the work, and we'd have a 75\% unemployment rate. Or 75\% of the population in marketing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If everybody worked hard for 40 hours a week , 25 \ % of the working population could do 100 \ % of the work , and we 'd have a 75 \ % unemployment rate .
Or 75 \ % of the population in marketing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If everybody worked hard for 40 hours a week, 25\% of the working population could do 100\% of the work, and we'd have a 75\% unemployment rate.
Or 75\% of the population in marketing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30672476</id>
	<title>Take a step back</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262804880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Alright so I have read the postings and am concerned. You asked for an answer so here it is. Most of the time if you confront you boss or anyone else about their annoying behavoir they take it as a total assault on their character and turn the whole issue into a days of our lives episode. sometimes this is necessary sometimes not. other times it is better to avoid bringing things up altogether. The real question you need to ask yourself is what do you want out of this job. are you afraid that the poor quality of code is going to result in job loses? if so do you think that mentioning the issue to your boss or coworkers will change things. if so you want to talk to your boss about I would suggest taking an indirect approach about it. talk to him or her about what they did over the weekend then tell them you are really concerned about the software quality and you wanted to know what you can do about it. attack the issues that you see not the people. people usually only hear personal attacks when you mention something about their behavoir. on the flip side, if you find that when you examine your motivations that you are just mad at your coworkers because they are not of the same frame of mind as you then change your frame of mind. remember, unless you are under duress (i.e. someone is holding a gun to your head) you are 50 \% responsible for the situation you are in.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Alright so I have read the postings and am concerned .
You asked for an answer so here it is .
Most of the time if you confront you boss or anyone else about their annoying behavoir they take it as a total assault on their character and turn the whole issue into a days of our lives episode .
sometimes this is necessary sometimes not .
other times it is better to avoid bringing things up altogether .
The real question you need to ask yourself is what do you want out of this job .
are you afraid that the poor quality of code is going to result in job loses ?
if so do you think that mentioning the issue to your boss or coworkers will change things .
if so you want to talk to your boss about I would suggest taking an indirect approach about it .
talk to him or her about what they did over the weekend then tell them you are really concerned about the software quality and you wanted to know what you can do about it .
attack the issues that you see not the people .
people usually only hear personal attacks when you mention something about their behavoir .
on the flip side , if you find that when you examine your motivations that you are just mad at your coworkers because they are not of the same frame of mind as you then change your frame of mind .
remember , unless you are under duress ( i.e .
someone is holding a gun to your head ) you are 50 \ % responsible for the situation you are in .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Alright so I have read the postings and am concerned.
You asked for an answer so here it is.
Most of the time if you confront you boss or anyone else about their annoying behavoir they take it as a total assault on their character and turn the whole issue into a days of our lives episode.
sometimes this is necessary sometimes not.
other times it is better to avoid bringing things up altogether.
The real question you need to ask yourself is what do you want out of this job.
are you afraid that the poor quality of code is going to result in job loses?
if so do you think that mentioning the issue to your boss or coworkers will change things.
if so you want to talk to your boss about I would suggest taking an indirect approach about it.
talk to him or her about what they did over the weekend then tell them you are really concerned about the software quality and you wanted to know what you can do about it.
attack the issues that you see not the people.
people usually only hear personal attacks when you mention something about their behavoir.
on the flip side, if you find that when you examine your motivations that you are just mad at your coworkers because they are not of the same frame of mind as you then change your frame of mind.
remember, unless you are under duress (i.e.
someone is holding a gun to your head) you are 50 \% responsible for the situation you are in.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668844</id>
	<title>Two Reasons</title>
	<author>hellvis1977</author>
	<datestamp>1262789880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There is one guy I work with, a top performer on the Windows side, who is simply pissed at the company. He tries to work no more the 4 hours a week. Prior to our corporate masters taking away our benefits and making pay cuts and demanding extra hours from us, he worked 70 hours a week. While the C level people pocketed millions and the company moved up on the fortune 100 list regular employees got laid off and the ones who stayed got taken advantage of.

It is a simple balance. If the company screws you, you screw them back. The other thing you should understand is that IT is a 24 X 7 operation. I am the Lead Engineer on the Unix side and I have to be honest, I do what ever I want over the course of my day. I like my 2-hour lunches and my off site coffee breaks (I am particular about my coffee and the cafeteria doesn't make cafe Americano).

Before you condemn my work ethic you should understand that I get called 5 - 6 times a week at 3AM to fix some critical system or application. I am important to the business. I have never not taken a call, after hours, on the weekend or otherwise. I have also never missed a deadline or failed to deliver a solution. How I get to that end point is my business.
I am the best at what I do in my company and I am high enough in the food chain to manage my own time. One of the other posters mentioned burning out. It is a constant issue in IT. You have weeks where you do 5 hours of work. I personally have had weeks where I averaged 100 + for months at a time. You need to balance your time or you will become jaded (see above) and useless.

Welcome to IT. It is a crappy job most of the time. Take a piece of advice for a guy who has been going it for 12 years. Shut your mouth and keep your head down. The only thing people care about is results. What your co-workers do it none of your business and making enemies won't help you get ahead. In the long run no one (including management) cares about your indignation.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is one guy I work with , a top performer on the Windows side , who is simply pissed at the company .
He tries to work no more the 4 hours a week .
Prior to our corporate masters taking away our benefits and making pay cuts and demanding extra hours from us , he worked 70 hours a week .
While the C level people pocketed millions and the company moved up on the fortune 100 list regular employees got laid off and the ones who stayed got taken advantage of .
It is a simple balance .
If the company screws you , you screw them back .
The other thing you should understand is that IT is a 24 X 7 operation .
I am the Lead Engineer on the Unix side and I have to be honest , I do what ever I want over the course of my day .
I like my 2-hour lunches and my off site coffee breaks ( I am particular about my coffee and the cafeteria does n't make cafe Americano ) .
Before you condemn my work ethic you should understand that I get called 5 - 6 times a week at 3AM to fix some critical system or application .
I am important to the business .
I have never not taken a call , after hours , on the weekend or otherwise .
I have also never missed a deadline or failed to deliver a solution .
How I get to that end point is my business .
I am the best at what I do in my company and I am high enough in the food chain to manage my own time .
One of the other posters mentioned burning out .
It is a constant issue in IT .
You have weeks where you do 5 hours of work .
I personally have had weeks where I averaged 100 + for months at a time .
You need to balance your time or you will become jaded ( see above ) and useless .
Welcome to IT .
It is a crappy job most of the time .
Take a piece of advice for a guy who has been going it for 12 years .
Shut your mouth and keep your head down .
The only thing people care about is results .
What your co-workers do it none of your business and making enemies wo n't help you get ahead .
In the long run no one ( including management ) cares about your indignation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is one guy I work with, a top performer on the Windows side, who is simply pissed at the company.
He tries to work no more the 4 hours a week.
Prior to our corporate masters taking away our benefits and making pay cuts and demanding extra hours from us, he worked 70 hours a week.
While the C level people pocketed millions and the company moved up on the fortune 100 list regular employees got laid off and the ones who stayed got taken advantage of.
It is a simple balance.
If the company screws you, you screw them back.
The other thing you should understand is that IT is a 24 X 7 operation.
I am the Lead Engineer on the Unix side and I have to be honest, I do what ever I want over the course of my day.
I like my 2-hour lunches and my off site coffee breaks (I am particular about my coffee and the cafeteria doesn't make cafe Americano).
Before you condemn my work ethic you should understand that I get called 5 - 6 times a week at 3AM to fix some critical system or application.
I am important to the business.
I have never not taken a call, after hours, on the weekend or otherwise.
I have also never missed a deadline or failed to deliver a solution.
How I get to that end point is my business.
I am the best at what I do in my company and I am high enough in the food chain to manage my own time.
One of the other posters mentioned burning out.
It is a constant issue in IT.
You have weeks where you do 5 hours of work.
I personally have had weeks where I averaged 100 + for months at a time.
You need to balance your time or you will become jaded (see above) and useless.
Welcome to IT.
It is a crappy job most of the time.
Take a piece of advice for a guy who has been going it for 12 years.
Shut your mouth and keep your head down.
The only thing people care about is results.
What your co-workers do it none of your business and making enemies won't help you get ahead.
In the long run no one (including management) cares about your indignation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30671004</id>
	<title>Re:Hang Gliding while being paid to write code...</title>
	<author>MBGMorden</author>
	<datestamp>1262799120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've had to do it.  We did away with the clock about 3 years ago, but I was at the same company I am in now doing IT work (kinda - I was the Software Trainer, though I've changed positions now).  I also did a stint as an instructor at one of those small "certificate factory" schools and clocked in and out there too.  It typically didn't bother me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've had to do it .
We did away with the clock about 3 years ago , but I was at the same company I am in now doing IT work ( kinda - I was the Software Trainer , though I 've changed positions now ) .
I also did a stint as an instructor at one of those small " certificate factory " schools and clocked in and out there too .
It typically did n't bother me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've had to do it.
We did away with the clock about 3 years ago, but I was at the same company I am in now doing IT work (kinda - I was the Software Trainer, though I've changed positions now).
I also did a stint as an instructor at one of those small "certificate factory" schools and clocked in and out there too.
It typically didn't bother me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669400</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669476</id>
	<title>standard operating procedure</title>
	<author>Nadaka</author>
	<datestamp>1262793180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Software Development is hard work, so is construction. How often do you drive by a work site and see half the crew standing around and chatting? Fairly often I would bet. The rest of the time they are busting their ass. Software development is the same, except its the muscle between your ears you have to flex. It is part of the job, get used to it. There will be idle time, you will need to decompress.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Software Development is hard work , so is construction .
How often do you drive by a work site and see half the crew standing around and chatting ?
Fairly often I would bet .
The rest of the time they are busting their ass .
Software development is the same , except its the muscle between your ears you have to flex .
It is part of the job , get used to it .
There will be idle time , you will need to decompress .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Software Development is hard work, so is construction.
How often do you drive by a work site and see half the crew standing around and chatting?
Fairly often I would bet.
The rest of the time they are busting their ass.
Software development is the same, except its the muscle between your ears you have to flex.
It is part of the job, get used to it.
There will be idle time, you will need to decompress.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669052</id>
	<title>Cycles</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262791020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've always found that I work in cycles. I'll go through a phase where I'm a little lazy, doing a little more browsing at work than I should be, but still generally getting my work done, however yes, the quality certainly does suffer.</p><p>The other cycle is I become a tried and true workaholic, where it really is quite common that I will work at least 9 hours with perhaps four 15-minute breaks spread throughout the day. Obviously these are the projects that I'm really interested in, and perhaps are evening getting the chance to learn some new skills.</p><p>At the end of the day however, I'm always getting my work done at least, so management doesn't care how much I screw around.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've always found that I work in cycles .
I 'll go through a phase where I 'm a little lazy , doing a little more browsing at work than I should be , but still generally getting my work done , however yes , the quality certainly does suffer.The other cycle is I become a tried and true workaholic , where it really is quite common that I will work at least 9 hours with perhaps four 15-minute breaks spread throughout the day .
Obviously these are the projects that I 'm really interested in , and perhaps are evening getting the chance to learn some new skills.At the end of the day however , I 'm always getting my work done at least , so management does n't care how much I screw around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've always found that I work in cycles.
I'll go through a phase where I'm a little lazy, doing a little more browsing at work than I should be, but still generally getting my work done, however yes, the quality certainly does suffer.The other cycle is I become a tried and true workaholic, where it really is quite common that I will work at least 9 hours with perhaps four 15-minute breaks spread throughout the day.
Obviously these are the projects that I'm really interested in, and perhaps are evening getting the chance to learn some new skills.At the end of the day however, I'm always getting my work done at least, so management doesn't care how much I screw around.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670376</id>
	<title>tarnished reality</title>
	<author>fusiongyro</author>
	<datestamp>1262796900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's pretty obnoxious, isn't it? But I still feel guilty about it. I think I probably waste about an hour to an hour and a half. It takes me a little while to get ready when I get in and sporadically through the day one takes little five minute breaks while waiting for the code to compile or whatever. That time adds up. But in practice, most of us in most workplaces, waste a certain amount of time each day. If it's more than a certain amount or if it's endemic, it might be a bad workplace. Watch "The Office." If it seems comparable to the show or worse, it's too much.</p><p>I still remember the surprise I had when I first started working in high school. I had an internship with the county government that started right after school (3 PM). By the time I got there, most everyone was already cruising for 5 and I was fired up wanting to get some stuff done. I thought they were shockingly lazy. That summer I had a full time internship for the local electric company. You just can't keep all processors going at 100\% for 8 hours straight.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's pretty obnoxious , is n't it ?
But I still feel guilty about it .
I think I probably waste about an hour to an hour and a half .
It takes me a little while to get ready when I get in and sporadically through the day one takes little five minute breaks while waiting for the code to compile or whatever .
That time adds up .
But in practice , most of us in most workplaces , waste a certain amount of time each day .
If it 's more than a certain amount or if it 's endemic , it might be a bad workplace .
Watch " The Office .
" If it seems comparable to the show or worse , it 's too much.I still remember the surprise I had when I first started working in high school .
I had an internship with the county government that started right after school ( 3 PM ) .
By the time I got there , most everyone was already cruising for 5 and I was fired up wanting to get some stuff done .
I thought they were shockingly lazy .
That summer I had a full time internship for the local electric company .
You just ca n't keep all processors going at 100 \ % for 8 hours straight .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's pretty obnoxious, isn't it?
But I still feel guilty about it.
I think I probably waste about an hour to an hour and a half.
It takes me a little while to get ready when I get in and sporadically through the day one takes little five minute breaks while waiting for the code to compile or whatever.
That time adds up.
But in practice, most of us in most workplaces, waste a certain amount of time each day.
If it's more than a certain amount or if it's endemic, it might be a bad workplace.
Watch "The Office.
" If it seems comparable to the show or worse, it's too much.I still remember the surprise I had when I first started working in high school.
I had an internship with the county government that started right after school (3 PM).
By the time I got there, most everyone was already cruising for 5 and I was fired up wanting to get some stuff done.
I thought they were shockingly lazy.
That summer I had a full time internship for the local electric company.
You just can't keep all processors going at 100\% for 8 hours straight.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669158</id>
	<title>Suck it up, Scrub.</title>
	<author>DontBlameCanada</author>
	<datestamp>1262791680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We were all there when we were fresh out of school and eager to make out mark. Unfortunately, heads-down hard workers rarely get the advancement they deserve. Instead its the slack-asses who spend their time "networking" around the water cooler who get the plum jobs and promotions.</p><p>Eventually you'll experience the frustration that we all did when we came to that realization. Welcome to the the real world!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We were all there when we were fresh out of school and eager to make out mark .
Unfortunately , heads-down hard workers rarely get the advancement they deserve .
Instead its the slack-asses who spend their time " networking " around the water cooler who get the plum jobs and promotions.Eventually you 'll experience the frustration that we all did when we came to that realization .
Welcome to the the real world !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We were all there when we were fresh out of school and eager to make out mark.
Unfortunately, heads-down hard workers rarely get the advancement they deserve.
Instead its the slack-asses who spend their time "networking" around the water cooler who get the plum jobs and promotions.Eventually you'll experience the frustration that we all did when we came to that realization.
Welcome to the the real world!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668180</id>
	<title>What is Ethic?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262785200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why, is there any Work Ethic still in America?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why , is there any Work Ethic still in America ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why, is there any Work Ethic still in America?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30672418</id>
	<title>Slacker tip: carry an M-Style keyboard around</title>
	<author>HycoWhit</author>
	<datestamp>1262804640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The discussions about the difference between IT folks and software developers is spot on!   As a software developer, it is hard to be productive from 9 to 5, but month after month I always perform above expectations. <br> Personally I enjoy wakeboarding and spending time on the lake.  My boss has no technical skills and always wants to mother hen her staff.  <br>
My fix has been to ensure I always have a clicky keyboard around when she calls.  We'll stop the boat, turn off the music, and while I talk to her I'll mash random keys.  90\% of the time that's all I need to do to make her happy.<br>
If she asks a question that requires computer access to answer, I'll tell her it is taking me longer than I thought and I'll call her right back.  Only then does the laptop come out...<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</htmltext>
<tokenext>The discussions about the difference between IT folks and software developers is spot on !
As a software developer , it is hard to be productive from 9 to 5 , but month after month I always perform above expectations .
Personally I enjoy wakeboarding and spending time on the lake .
My boss has no technical skills and always wants to mother hen her staff .
My fix has been to ensure I always have a clicky keyboard around when she calls .
We 'll stop the boat , turn off the music , and while I talk to her I 'll mash random keys .
90 \ % of the time that 's all I need to do to make her happy .
If she asks a question that requires computer access to answer , I 'll tell her it is taking me longer than I thought and I 'll call her right back .
Only then does the laptop come out... : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The discussions about the difference between IT folks and software developers is spot on!
As a software developer, it is hard to be productive from 9 to 5, but month after month I always perform above expectations.
Personally I enjoy wakeboarding and spending time on the lake.
My boss has no technical skills and always wants to mother hen her staff.
My fix has been to ensure I always have a clicky keyboard around when she calls.
We'll stop the boat, turn off the music, and while I talk to her I'll mash random keys.
90\% of the time that's all I need to do to make her happy.
If she asks a question that requires computer access to answer, I'll tell her it is taking me longer than I thought and I'll call her right back.
Only then does the laptop come out... :)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668698</id>
	<title>A cynical explanation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262788920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sure. Maybe they're all slackers.</p><p>Or maybe they've worked their asses off before only to be laid off, and now they realize there's no point. Maybe the company's culture is such that there is always more work to be done, and they know that they'll be called in to work overtime no matter what. So if you're going to be forced to work 10 hours unpaid on the weekend, what do you do? You slack off 10 hours during normal hours to make up for it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure .
Maybe they 're all slackers.Or maybe they 've worked their asses off before only to be laid off , and now they realize there 's no point .
Maybe the company 's culture is such that there is always more work to be done , and they know that they 'll be called in to work overtime no matter what .
So if you 're going to be forced to work 10 hours unpaid on the weekend , what do you do ?
You slack off 10 hours during normal hours to make up for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure.
Maybe they're all slackers.Or maybe they've worked their asses off before only to be laid off, and now they realize there's no point.
Maybe the company's culture is such that there is always more work to be done, and they know that they'll be called in to work overtime no matter what.
So if you're going to be forced to work 10 hours unpaid on the weekend, what do you do?
You slack off 10 hours during normal hours to make up for it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30676026</id>
	<title>That's your office; act like you belong there ...</title>
	<author>gordguide</author>
	<datestamp>1262777520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First of all, congratulations on recognizing some important truths about your situation<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... that you are new to the workforce in general, that you are new there, that you had probably not go around telling people how to do their jobs, and so on. Off to a great start in the work-a-day world, there.</p><p>Now about the particulars of your office<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... what you are observing is the culture of that office. Just like in school and after school, so far in your time here on the planet, you have to accept cultural norms for the group you intend to fit in with. And trust me<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... you want to fit in at work. There is a real financial penalty for not doing so; in essence you will be out of the loop and miss important opportunities if you fail on that score.</p><p>That doesn't mean you can't be a leader at work; it means you have to lead within the culture. That doesn't mean you must be a leader at work; it means you have to follow within the culture. Whatever fits your personal style, ambitions, and goals, go there accordingly.</p><p>It's OK to work harder than those around you. Don't get me wrong, here. But, if you do decide that's how you're going to play it, work smart. Wait to get noticed, don't call attention to what you think is hard work. It may not be, actually. You don't really know how or why the people around you are there, or what the company values in them as employees, going beyond just what they do for "work".</p><p>Here's a hot tip<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... make an effort to get along with other employees. Even the ones no-one else seems to get along with. That is an attribute that can get your ass saved when things are not so rosy and somebody has to go. No guarantees<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... some companies do actually see you as just a number, but sooner or later you will end up somewhere where that isn't the case, and then it will provide job security, as far as there is such a thing, anyway.</p><p>And when I say "make an effort", that's exactly what I mean. Suck it up, go with the flow, and avoid being seen as a griper. It's OK to hear griping, it's OK to listen to griping, and it's OK to hang out with everyone. Just don't add fuel to the fire yourself. You can listen without adding fuel to the fire; don't enthusiastically agree with every little grumble.</p><p>Different workplaces, different companies, different careers; they all have a culture. Some places treat you like a slave; some people are OK with that because they enjoy working hard, and if there are long term employees around, chances are they pay well for slavery. Some places are about keeping it fun on the job, while still excelling at the work they do. Those are the hardest to fit in with, actually. You can't just simply work your way through them.</p><p>You don't have to change your personality, or try to be someone you're not. That won't work, actually. Be yourself but be seen as a team player. Management knows (or should know) they need all kinds of people to succeed.</p><p>Regardless, a work culture is important. Learn it and live within it, and make your mark with "the bosses" by doing well within that culture. If you can't live within it, move on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First of all , congratulations on recognizing some important truths about your situation ... that you are new to the workforce in general , that you are new there , that you had probably not go around telling people how to do their jobs , and so on .
Off to a great start in the work-a-day world , there.Now about the particulars of your office ... what you are observing is the culture of that office .
Just like in school and after school , so far in your time here on the planet , you have to accept cultural norms for the group you intend to fit in with .
And trust me ... you want to fit in at work .
There is a real financial penalty for not doing so ; in essence you will be out of the loop and miss important opportunities if you fail on that score.That does n't mean you ca n't be a leader at work ; it means you have to lead within the culture .
That does n't mean you must be a leader at work ; it means you have to follow within the culture .
Whatever fits your personal style , ambitions , and goals , go there accordingly.It 's OK to work harder than those around you .
Do n't get me wrong , here .
But , if you do decide that 's how you 're going to play it , work smart .
Wait to get noticed , do n't call attention to what you think is hard work .
It may not be , actually .
You do n't really know how or why the people around you are there , or what the company values in them as employees , going beyond just what they do for " work " .Here 's a hot tip ... make an effort to get along with other employees .
Even the ones no-one else seems to get along with .
That is an attribute that can get your ass saved when things are not so rosy and somebody has to go .
No guarantees ... some companies do actually see you as just a number , but sooner or later you will end up somewhere where that is n't the case , and then it will provide job security , as far as there is such a thing , anyway.And when I say " make an effort " , that 's exactly what I mean .
Suck it up , go with the flow , and avoid being seen as a griper .
It 's OK to hear griping , it 's OK to listen to griping , and it 's OK to hang out with everyone .
Just do n't add fuel to the fire yourself .
You can listen without adding fuel to the fire ; do n't enthusiastically agree with every little grumble.Different workplaces , different companies , different careers ; they all have a culture .
Some places treat you like a slave ; some people are OK with that because they enjoy working hard , and if there are long term employees around , chances are they pay well for slavery .
Some places are about keeping it fun on the job , while still excelling at the work they do .
Those are the hardest to fit in with , actually .
You ca n't just simply work your way through them.You do n't have to change your personality , or try to be someone you 're not .
That wo n't work , actually .
Be yourself but be seen as a team player .
Management knows ( or should know ) they need all kinds of people to succeed.Regardless , a work culture is important .
Learn it and live within it , and make your mark with " the bosses " by doing well within that culture .
If you ca n't live within it , move on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First of all, congratulations on recognizing some important truths about your situation ... that you are new to the workforce in general, that you are new there, that you had probably not go around telling people how to do their jobs, and so on.
Off to a great start in the work-a-day world, there.Now about the particulars of your office ... what you are observing is the culture of that office.
Just like in school and after school, so far in your time here on the planet, you have to accept cultural norms for the group you intend to fit in with.
And trust me ... you want to fit in at work.
There is a real financial penalty for not doing so; in essence you will be out of the loop and miss important opportunities if you fail on that score.That doesn't mean you can't be a leader at work; it means you have to lead within the culture.
That doesn't mean you must be a leader at work; it means you have to follow within the culture.
Whatever fits your personal style, ambitions, and goals, go there accordingly.It's OK to work harder than those around you.
Don't get me wrong, here.
But, if you do decide that's how you're going to play it, work smart.
Wait to get noticed, don't call attention to what you think is hard work.
It may not be, actually.
You don't really know how or why the people around you are there, or what the company values in them as employees, going beyond just what they do for "work".Here's a hot tip ... make an effort to get along with other employees.
Even the ones no-one else seems to get along with.
That is an attribute that can get your ass saved when things are not so rosy and somebody has to go.
No guarantees ... some companies do actually see you as just a number, but sooner or later you will end up somewhere where that isn't the case, and then it will provide job security, as far as there is such a thing, anyway.And when I say "make an effort", that's exactly what I mean.
Suck it up, go with the flow, and avoid being seen as a griper.
It's OK to hear griping, it's OK to listen to griping, and it's OK to hang out with everyone.
Just don't add fuel to the fire yourself.
You can listen without adding fuel to the fire; don't enthusiastically agree with every little grumble.Different workplaces, different companies, different careers; they all have a culture.
Some places treat you like a slave; some people are OK with that because they enjoy working hard, and if there are long term employees around, chances are they pay well for slavery.
Some places are about keeping it fun on the job, while still excelling at the work they do.
Those are the hardest to fit in with, actually.
You can't just simply work your way through them.You don't have to change your personality, or try to be someone you're not.
That won't work, actually.
Be yourself but be seen as a team player.
Management knows (or should know) they need all kinds of people to succeed.Regardless, a work culture is important.
Learn it and live within it, and make your mark with "the bosses" by doing well within that culture.
If you can't live within it, move on.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668478</id>
	<title>just poor management</title>
	<author>Uzik2</author>
	<datestamp>1262787540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've worked at companies that had both extremes. It's a sign of poor management but that's their job not yours. If you find it too offensive to put up with then leave. Just be aware the next place you work at may be the other extreme and that's MUCH worse for you</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've worked at companies that had both extremes .
It 's a sign of poor management but that 's their job not yours .
If you find it too offensive to put up with then leave .
Just be aware the next place you work at may be the other extreme and that 's MUCH worse for you</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've worked at companies that had both extremes.
It's a sign of poor management but that's their job not yours.
If you find it too offensive to put up with then leave.
Just be aware the next place you work at may be the other extreme and that's MUCH worse for you</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30680166</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>Skal Tura</author>
	<datestamp>1262857560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But also coding is often a very creative process, therefore time spent on seemingly goofing off etc. might be the time when you are working the hardest.</p><p>The thing is? You are cutting the neural pathways related to the problem to find solutions out-of-the-box and allowing your subconscious to work.</p><p>My most productive moments have been my smoke breaks. And infact management wanted to disallow paid smoke breaks! I even had to hardball to keep my right for smoke breaks, and point out that those are often the moments i get "The Idea" and crank out couple weeks of work within couple hours, simply by having very good idea.</p><p>Of course, tons of my work is just cranking out code aswell, so easy tasks, but someone with the insight into the system has to do them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But also coding is often a very creative process , therefore time spent on seemingly goofing off etc .
might be the time when you are working the hardest.The thing is ?
You are cutting the neural pathways related to the problem to find solutions out-of-the-box and allowing your subconscious to work.My most productive moments have been my smoke breaks .
And infact management wanted to disallow paid smoke breaks !
I even had to hardball to keep my right for smoke breaks , and point out that those are often the moments i get " The Idea " and crank out couple weeks of work within couple hours , simply by having very good idea.Of course , tons of my work is just cranking out code aswell , so easy tasks , but someone with the insight into the system has to do them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But also coding is often a very creative process, therefore time spent on seemingly goofing off etc.
might be the time when you are working the hardest.The thing is?
You are cutting the neural pathways related to the problem to find solutions out-of-the-box and allowing your subconscious to work.My most productive moments have been my smoke breaks.
And infact management wanted to disallow paid smoke breaks!
I even had to hardball to keep my right for smoke breaks, and point out that those are often the moments i get "The Idea" and crank out couple weeks of work within couple hours, simply by having very good idea.Of course, tons of my work is just cranking out code aswell, so easy tasks, but someone with the insight into the system has to do them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30678180</id>
	<title>Don't work when you're not getting paid.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262791500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't know about you, but some large fraction of what I'm paid (gross) is removed from my paycheck directly (payroll taxes, witholding) or indirectly (sales taxes, etc.). I don't work for that proportion of my time. Now if everyone does that, taxes would have to go down!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know about you , but some large fraction of what I 'm paid ( gross ) is removed from my paycheck directly ( payroll taxes , witholding ) or indirectly ( sales taxes , etc. ) .
I do n't work for that proportion of my time .
Now if everyone does that , taxes would have to go down !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know about you, but some large fraction of what I'm paid (gross) is removed from my paycheck directly (payroll taxes, witholding) or indirectly (sales taxes, etc.).
I don't work for that proportion of my time.
Now if everyone does that, taxes would have to go down!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30678998</id>
	<title>Re:Take it from an old timer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262798760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That pretty much says it all.  I've been a programmer for a year and a half after getting my MS in CS.  I was a pretty hard worker in college, but I've found that my work ethic fell off a cliff once I realized that you can work very very hard, then come in one day and start off working hard and then, about 3 o'clock, they lay you off, no questions asked and all that hard work that you did doesn't mean anything anymore.  People look at your name in the source code and wonder, "What happened to that guy?...."  And, to top that off, working harder doesn't necessarily guarantee you a pay raise or promotion...it only guarantees you more work.  So, without a pay raise, promotion, or an actual meaningful purpose for your software, the only motivation I can see is working hard enough not to get fired.</p><p>And, the software I help make is garbage....but it's that way for a reason.  The only way to make real good programs is to lower you expectations, take it one step at a time, and test it over and over again, but you can't sell low expectations for customers so, what happens is:</p><p>1. Do whatever you have to do to get the customer to buy (promise anything they want).<br>2. Say you're going to do it in a completely unrealistic amount of time.<br>3. Have murky, illdefined requirements.<br>4. This ends up with no one knowing what they're doing, but no one wants to admit that they don't know, so everybody says stuff that makes it seem like they know what they're doing....</p><p>and the result of all this is crappy software.</p><p>There's no way around it because customers have unrealistic expectations and if you don't try to rip them off, someone else will.  And I know this because I'm betting that some company is ripping off your company, just like other companies are ripping off mine.  From what I can tell, the entire whole of corporate america shines shit and calls it gold, so I doubt your place is any different.</p><p>I suppose that you just get used to it after a while and end up just like your coworkers....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That pretty much says it all .
I 've been a programmer for a year and a half after getting my MS in CS .
I was a pretty hard worker in college , but I 've found that my work ethic fell off a cliff once I realized that you can work very very hard , then come in one day and start off working hard and then , about 3 o'clock , they lay you off , no questions asked and all that hard work that you did does n't mean anything anymore .
People look at your name in the source code and wonder , " What happened to that guy ? ... .
" And , to top that off , working harder does n't necessarily guarantee you a pay raise or promotion...it only guarantees you more work .
So , without a pay raise , promotion , or an actual meaningful purpose for your software , the only motivation I can see is working hard enough not to get fired.And , the software I help make is garbage....but it 's that way for a reason .
The only way to make real good programs is to lower you expectations , take it one step at a time , and test it over and over again , but you ca n't sell low expectations for customers so , what happens is : 1 .
Do whatever you have to do to get the customer to buy ( promise anything they want ) .2 .
Say you 're going to do it in a completely unrealistic amount of time.3 .
Have murky , illdefined requirements.4 .
This ends up with no one knowing what they 're doing , but no one wants to admit that they do n't know , so everybody says stuff that makes it seem like they know what they 're doing....and the result of all this is crappy software.There 's no way around it because customers have unrealistic expectations and if you do n't try to rip them off , someone else will .
And I know this because I 'm betting that some company is ripping off your company , just like other companies are ripping off mine .
From what I can tell , the entire whole of corporate america shines shit and calls it gold , so I doubt your place is any different.I suppose that you just get used to it after a while and end up just like your coworkers... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That pretty much says it all.
I've been a programmer for a year and a half after getting my MS in CS.
I was a pretty hard worker in college, but I've found that my work ethic fell off a cliff once I realized that you can work very very hard, then come in one day and start off working hard and then, about 3 o'clock, they lay you off, no questions asked and all that hard work that you did doesn't mean anything anymore.
People look at your name in the source code and wonder, "What happened to that guy?....
"  And, to top that off, working harder doesn't necessarily guarantee you a pay raise or promotion...it only guarantees you more work.
So, without a pay raise, promotion, or an actual meaningful purpose for your software, the only motivation I can see is working hard enough not to get fired.And, the software I help make is garbage....but it's that way for a reason.
The only way to make real good programs is to lower you expectations, take it one step at a time, and test it over and over again, but you can't sell low expectations for customers so, what happens is:1.
Do whatever you have to do to get the customer to buy (promise anything they want).2.
Say you're going to do it in a completely unrealistic amount of time.3.
Have murky, illdefined requirements.4.
This ends up with no one knowing what they're doing, but no one wants to admit that they don't know, so everybody says stuff that makes it seem like they know what they're doing....and the result of all this is crappy software.There's no way around it because customers have unrealistic expectations and if you don't try to rip them off, someone else will.
And I know this because I'm betting that some company is ripping off your company, just like other companies are ripping off mine.
From what I can tell, the entire whole of corporate america shines shit and calls it gold, so I doubt your place is any different.I suppose that you just get used to it after a while and end up just like your coworkers....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669492</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668806</id>
	<title>Not on my team</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262789640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a CTO I can say that I would not want most of you on my team.  Your responses are very defensive and you don't speak to how you create value for your teams.   Yes people need time to think and recharge during the day.  But the responder that uses the 4 hour rule (or 50\%) is a true slacker.  My advice is yes be social and be part of your team, do not complain about other people, but aim for 70\% time on task during the day and you will do well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a CTO I can say that I would not want most of you on my team .
Your responses are very defensive and you do n't speak to how you create value for your teams .
Yes people need time to think and recharge during the day .
But the responder that uses the 4 hour rule ( or 50 \ % ) is a true slacker .
My advice is yes be social and be part of your team , do not complain about other people , but aim for 70 \ % time on task during the day and you will do well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a CTO I can say that I would not want most of you on my team.
Your responses are very defensive and you don't speak to how you create value for your teams.
Yes people need time to think and recharge during the day.
But the responder that uses the 4 hour rule (or 50\%) is a true slacker.
My advice is yes be social and be part of your team, do not complain about other people, but aim for 70\% time on task during the day and you will do well.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669696</id>
	<title>One of the dumbest Slashdot submissions ever</title>
	<author>br00tus</author>
	<datestamp>1262794320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This submission is either the dumbest submission I've ever seen on Slashdot, or one of the cleverest trolls.  Posted by kdawson, what a shock.<p>
<b>"We inevitably miss deadlines"</b> <br>
This is completely meaningless.  I have never worked for a company which had sane deadlines.  If I've been lucky, I've had an especially good manager who has been able to push back some of the pressure from his manager and the managers of other groups toward deadlines.  If you search Google for "death march", the #1 entry is for the famous Bataan death march, the #2 entry is the Wikipedia entry for a Software development death march.  I don't know how many times I've been brought into projects in the middle of them, where the project manager points to a flow chart on my first day in and says "you should have finished your part last week".  In other words, I'm already a week behind because the original person slated quit, or went on vacation, or whatever.  I have been in the industry since 1996, have worked at everything from very small startups to Fortune 100 companies and it is the same everywhere, unless your lucky to find some oasis in an academic job, government job or even, rarely, within a company.  Deadlines use in modern companies is as a tool for management to overwork and exploit employees.</p><p>
<b>
"I'm not in any position to go around telling others to use their time more efficiently. Management seems to tolerate it."</b> </p><p>
Exactly.  You are NOT in a position to go around telling others to use their time more efficiently, you are not a manager, so shut the hell up!  What are you, the little dork with a hall monitor armband?  What damned business is it of yours?  If there's something I can't stand, it's some whiny low-level developer who thinks he is a manager.  Guess what, you're not a manager.  It's not your job to say anything about someone who puts out crap code or doesn't work a straight 10-12 hours a day like everyone else.  Especially if you are a recent graduate.  Every once in a while I get these developers who are ultimately low level peons just like all of us not in management who whine and gripe about how certain developers are lazy and certain developers write crap code.  And I don't mean when this has a *direct* effect on said complainer, as that is understandable and I would even complain myself about it.  I mean people who make such complaints when this has no direct effect on them.  Why do you care, and more so, why the hell should I care?  I don't own the company, I just get a paycheck, so I don't give a shit.  If the company wanted me to care, they can give me a 1\% piece in the company, otherwise, caveat emptor, for them.  Something exists to deal with these people, it is called management, if you are not a manager, and it does not directly effect you, then shut the hell up, stop giving yourself airs of being more important than you are when you're not.</p><p>
My attitude is thus: if they give me significant options or a piece of the company, then my attitude changes and I become "concerned with the company".  The other possible motivator is if I want to climb the corporate ladder.  One ladder I am not on, thank heavens, but have seen is from low-level (A+/MCITP) help-desk guy to a position of seniority within the helpdesk group to a low position on the group running Exchange/file/domain control servers, to a position of seniority in that group, and then on to a position in the engineering/architecture group.  So the desire to be promoted to a better position is another motivator.  Other than those two factors, what motivation is there for me to anything other than the bare minimum to keep my job and keep sharp on my skill set?  These companies will put hard-working employees who work extra hours when half the department quits due to crap working conditions, who spends years waking up from being paged in the middle of the night to fix something, out on the street in the worst economies the second their profit margin looks like it might dip slightly.  They will give you inferior equipment, too littl</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This submission is either the dumbest submission I 've ever seen on Slashdot , or one of the cleverest trolls .
Posted by kdawson , what a shock .
" We inevitably miss deadlines " This is completely meaningless .
I have never worked for a company which had sane deadlines .
If I 've been lucky , I 've had an especially good manager who has been able to push back some of the pressure from his manager and the managers of other groups toward deadlines .
If you search Google for " death march " , the # 1 entry is for the famous Bataan death march , the # 2 entry is the Wikipedia entry for a Software development death march .
I do n't know how many times I 've been brought into projects in the middle of them , where the project manager points to a flow chart on my first day in and says " you should have finished your part last week " .
In other words , I 'm already a week behind because the original person slated quit , or went on vacation , or whatever .
I have been in the industry since 1996 , have worked at everything from very small startups to Fortune 100 companies and it is the same everywhere , unless your lucky to find some oasis in an academic job , government job or even , rarely , within a company .
Deadlines use in modern companies is as a tool for management to overwork and exploit employees .
" I 'm not in any position to go around telling others to use their time more efficiently .
Management seems to tolerate it .
" Exactly .
You are NOT in a position to go around telling others to use their time more efficiently , you are not a manager , so shut the hell up !
What are you , the little dork with a hall monitor armband ?
What damned business is it of yours ?
If there 's something I ca n't stand , it 's some whiny low-level developer who thinks he is a manager .
Guess what , you 're not a manager .
It 's not your job to say anything about someone who puts out crap code or does n't work a straight 10-12 hours a day like everyone else .
Especially if you are a recent graduate .
Every once in a while I get these developers who are ultimately low level peons just like all of us not in management who whine and gripe about how certain developers are lazy and certain developers write crap code .
And I do n't mean when this has a * direct * effect on said complainer , as that is understandable and I would even complain myself about it .
I mean people who make such complaints when this has no direct effect on them .
Why do you care , and more so , why the hell should I care ?
I do n't own the company , I just get a paycheck , so I do n't give a shit .
If the company wanted me to care , they can give me a 1 \ % piece in the company , otherwise , caveat emptor , for them .
Something exists to deal with these people , it is called management , if you are not a manager , and it does not directly effect you , then shut the hell up , stop giving yourself airs of being more important than you are when you 're not .
My attitude is thus : if they give me significant options or a piece of the company , then my attitude changes and I become " concerned with the company " .
The other possible motivator is if I want to climb the corporate ladder .
One ladder I am not on , thank heavens , but have seen is from low-level ( A + /MCITP ) help-desk guy to a position of seniority within the helpdesk group to a low position on the group running Exchange/file/domain control servers , to a position of seniority in that group , and then on to a position in the engineering/architecture group .
So the desire to be promoted to a better position is another motivator .
Other than those two factors , what motivation is there for me to anything other than the bare minimum to keep my job and keep sharp on my skill set ?
These companies will put hard-working employees who work extra hours when half the department quits due to crap working conditions , who spends years waking up from being paged in the middle of the night to fix something , out on the street in the worst economies the second their profit margin looks like it might dip slightly .
They will give you inferior equipment , too littl</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This submission is either the dumbest submission I've ever seen on Slashdot, or one of the cleverest trolls.
Posted by kdawson, what a shock.
"We inevitably miss deadlines" 
This is completely meaningless.
I have never worked for a company which had sane deadlines.
If I've been lucky, I've had an especially good manager who has been able to push back some of the pressure from his manager and the managers of other groups toward deadlines.
If you search Google for "death march", the #1 entry is for the famous Bataan death march, the #2 entry is the Wikipedia entry for a Software development death march.
I don't know how many times I've been brought into projects in the middle of them, where the project manager points to a flow chart on my first day in and says "you should have finished your part last week".
In other words, I'm already a week behind because the original person slated quit, or went on vacation, or whatever.
I have been in the industry since 1996, have worked at everything from very small startups to Fortune 100 companies and it is the same everywhere, unless your lucky to find some oasis in an academic job, government job or even, rarely, within a company.
Deadlines use in modern companies is as a tool for management to overwork and exploit employees.
"I'm not in any position to go around telling others to use their time more efficiently.
Management seems to tolerate it.
" 
Exactly.
You are NOT in a position to go around telling others to use their time more efficiently, you are not a manager, so shut the hell up!
What are you, the little dork with a hall monitor armband?
What damned business is it of yours?
If there's something I can't stand, it's some whiny low-level developer who thinks he is a manager.
Guess what, you're not a manager.
It's not your job to say anything about someone who puts out crap code or doesn't work a straight 10-12 hours a day like everyone else.
Especially if you are a recent graduate.
Every once in a while I get these developers who are ultimately low level peons just like all of us not in management who whine and gripe about how certain developers are lazy and certain developers write crap code.
And I don't mean when this has a *direct* effect on said complainer, as that is understandable and I would even complain myself about it.
I mean people who make such complaints when this has no direct effect on them.
Why do you care, and more so, why the hell should I care?
I don't own the company, I just get a paycheck, so I don't give a shit.
If the company wanted me to care, they can give me a 1\% piece in the company, otherwise, caveat emptor, for them.
Something exists to deal with these people, it is called management, if you are not a manager, and it does not directly effect you, then shut the hell up, stop giving yourself airs of being more important than you are when you're not.
My attitude is thus: if they give me significant options or a piece of the company, then my attitude changes and I become "concerned with the company".
The other possible motivator is if I want to climb the corporate ladder.
One ladder I am not on, thank heavens, but have seen is from low-level (A+/MCITP) help-desk guy to a position of seniority within the helpdesk group to a low position on the group running Exchange/file/domain control servers, to a position of seniority in that group, and then on to a position in the engineering/architecture group.
So the desire to be promoted to a better position is another motivator.
Other than those two factors, what motivation is there for me to anything other than the bare minimum to keep my job and keep sharp on my skill set?
These companies will put hard-working employees who work extra hours when half the department quits due to crap working conditions, who spends years waking up from being paged in the middle of the night to fix something, out on the street in the worst economies the second their profit margin looks like it might dip slightly.
They will give you inferior equipment, too littl</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30676840</id>
	<title>Re:Hang Gliding while being paid to write code...</title>
	<author>ekhben</author>
	<datestamp>1262781780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Remember, of course, that if you only work just hard enough to not get fired, you'll only be paid just enough to not want to quit.

</p><p>The general idea that your main motivation for working well is loyalty to the company seems a bit off, to me.  The first reason to work well is you feel better when you do.  It's very satisfying to be proud of the work you've done, and that can have an impact on every aspect of your life.  It's extremely helpful if your managers recognise your good work, too, but motivation is not a one-way street, and the more self-sufficient you are with respect to motivation, the better you'll do generally.  You can't start your own business if you require external motivators, for instance!

</p><p>The next reason to work well is that you have loyalty to your immediate manager.  If they're doing their job well, they'll be supporting your professional development, representing you to higher management, shielding you from the shit spattering out of the fan, and providing you the autonomy, environment, and feedback to enable you to do the best you can.  If you're not delivering to your manager, your manager won't be delivering to their manager, and it's going to adversely affect them.

</p><p>(If your immediate manager doesn't give a shit, well, have fun riding the cushy job wave, but remember reason #1 - maybe you should manage upwards a little, or perhaps look for promotion opportunities or a new job).

</p><p>Mark me down as hypocrite for posting this while at work, of course.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Remember , of course , that if you only work just hard enough to not get fired , you 'll only be paid just enough to not want to quit .
The general idea that your main motivation for working well is loyalty to the company seems a bit off , to me .
The first reason to work well is you feel better when you do .
It 's very satisfying to be proud of the work you 've done , and that can have an impact on every aspect of your life .
It 's extremely helpful if your managers recognise your good work , too , but motivation is not a one-way street , and the more self-sufficient you are with respect to motivation , the better you 'll do generally .
You ca n't start your own business if you require external motivators , for instance !
The next reason to work well is that you have loyalty to your immediate manager .
If they 're doing their job well , they 'll be supporting your professional development , representing you to higher management , shielding you from the shit spattering out of the fan , and providing you the autonomy , environment , and feedback to enable you to do the best you can .
If you 're not delivering to your manager , your manager wo n't be delivering to their manager , and it 's going to adversely affect them .
( If your immediate manager does n't give a shit , well , have fun riding the cushy job wave , but remember reason # 1 - maybe you should manage upwards a little , or perhaps look for promotion opportunities or a new job ) .
Mark me down as hypocrite for posting this while at work , of course .
: - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Remember, of course, that if you only work just hard enough to not get fired, you'll only be paid just enough to not want to quit.
The general idea that your main motivation for working well is loyalty to the company seems a bit off, to me.
The first reason to work well is you feel better when you do.
It's very satisfying to be proud of the work you've done, and that can have an impact on every aspect of your life.
It's extremely helpful if your managers recognise your good work, too, but motivation is not a one-way street, and the more self-sufficient you are with respect to motivation, the better you'll do generally.
You can't start your own business if you require external motivators, for instance!
The next reason to work well is that you have loyalty to your immediate manager.
If they're doing their job well, they'll be supporting your professional development, representing you to higher management, shielding you from the shit spattering out of the fan, and providing you the autonomy, environment, and feedback to enable you to do the best you can.
If you're not delivering to your manager, your manager won't be delivering to their manager, and it's going to adversely affect them.
(If your immediate manager doesn't give a shit, well, have fun riding the cushy job wave, but remember reason #1 - maybe you should manage upwards a little, or perhaps look for promotion opportunities or a new job).
Mark me down as hypocrite for posting this while at work, of course.
:-)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667922</id>
	<title>This isn't a problem it's an opportunity.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262782500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The main way to advance is to distinguish yourself from your peers.  Where I work, people are generally pretty damn smart and hard-working, so its a bit of a scrap each year at review time.  Sounds like you have an opportunity to really show how much more you do than the others around you.  If your management agrees, then great!  If they don't see it, then start looking for something else.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The main way to advance is to distinguish yourself from your peers .
Where I work , people are generally pretty damn smart and hard-working , so its a bit of a scrap each year at review time .
Sounds like you have an opportunity to really show how much more you do than the others around you .
If your management agrees , then great !
If they do n't see it , then start looking for something else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The main way to advance is to distinguish yourself from your peers.
Where I work, people are generally pretty damn smart and hard-working, so its a bit of a scrap each year at review time.
Sounds like you have an opportunity to really show how much more you do than the others around you.
If your management agrees, then great!
If they don't see it, then start looking for something else.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667576</id>
	<title>All things in moderation</title>
	<author>RiffRaff06078</author>
	<datestamp>1262778540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Is it a sin to spend a few minutes talking about last night's game while you're on the clock for the company? No. Socialization creates camaraderie in the workplace, which ultimately increases morale and productivity.  Is it a sin to spend several hours surfing sports websites while on the clock for the company?  You betchya, and I'll be the first one with my boot up your ass when I review the network activity logs.

As usual, it all comes down to common sense. Our network policy states "no personal surfing on the clock."  Period.  Do I enforce that to the letter?  No way.  I have no problem with someone checking their bank account or a news site while they're sitting on hold with a customer.  I recognize that employees who do this are going to be more productive and happier in the office.  When I review network activity, I always allow a small percentage of personal traffic even though it's technically against company policy.  My superiors know I do this, and they trust my judgment.

As for your situation, you have two options as I see it.  You can abide by your own work ethic, which might not accomplish anything other than being able to sleep better at night; or you can lower yourself to the standards of your coworkers.  Either way, until you have more seniority or move into a supervisory position, there is little you can do about it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is it a sin to spend a few minutes talking about last night 's game while you 're on the clock for the company ?
No. Socialization creates camaraderie in the workplace , which ultimately increases morale and productivity .
Is it a sin to spend several hours surfing sports websites while on the clock for the company ?
You betchya , and I 'll be the first one with my boot up your ass when I review the network activity logs .
As usual , it all comes down to common sense .
Our network policy states " no personal surfing on the clock .
" Period .
Do I enforce that to the letter ?
No way .
I have no problem with someone checking their bank account or a news site while they 're sitting on hold with a customer .
I recognize that employees who do this are going to be more productive and happier in the office .
When I review network activity , I always allow a small percentage of personal traffic even though it 's technically against company policy .
My superiors know I do this , and they trust my judgment .
As for your situation , you have two options as I see it .
You can abide by your own work ethic , which might not accomplish anything other than being able to sleep better at night ; or you can lower yourself to the standards of your coworkers .
Either way , until you have more seniority or move into a supervisory position , there is little you can do about it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is it a sin to spend a few minutes talking about last night's game while you're on the clock for the company?
No. Socialization creates camaraderie in the workplace, which ultimately increases morale and productivity.
Is it a sin to spend several hours surfing sports websites while on the clock for the company?
You betchya, and I'll be the first one with my boot up your ass when I review the network activity logs.
As usual, it all comes down to common sense.
Our network policy states "no personal surfing on the clock.
"  Period.
Do I enforce that to the letter?
No way.
I have no problem with someone checking their bank account or a news site while they're sitting on hold with a customer.
I recognize that employees who do this are going to be more productive and happier in the office.
When I review network activity, I always allow a small percentage of personal traffic even though it's technically against company policy.
My superiors know I do this, and they trust my judgment.
As for your situation, you have two options as I see it.
You can abide by your own work ethic, which might not accomplish anything other than being able to sleep better at night; or you can lower yourself to the standards of your coworkers.
Either way, until you have more seniority or move into a supervisory position, there is little you can do about it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669414</id>
	<title>My Experience...</title>
	<author>lordsid</author>
	<datestamp>1262792880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If I'm messing around at work wasting time it means my brain isn't currently functioning. I've usually been sitting at my desk working on a problem for the last few hours and I need time to get up and let my mind unwind. The reason I consider this important because if I don't do this I will just sit at my desk staring blankly off into space. I don't know why but it helps me to break up what I'm doing. I consider these productive interruptions. My brain gets to go back to the problem and start solving it again with a relatively fresh start.</p><p>So basically what I'm saying is a certain amount of fucking around is important, as long as the work gets done. It's for the same reason that when I tell my boss I'm not really feeling it today he says "go home if you want". It beats me sticking around getting paid to do nothing but fill a desk. (large difference here is I'm hourly, worker owned cooperative)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If I 'm messing around at work wasting time it means my brain is n't currently functioning .
I 've usually been sitting at my desk working on a problem for the last few hours and I need time to get up and let my mind unwind .
The reason I consider this important because if I do n't do this I will just sit at my desk staring blankly off into space .
I do n't know why but it helps me to break up what I 'm doing .
I consider these productive interruptions .
My brain gets to go back to the problem and start solving it again with a relatively fresh start.So basically what I 'm saying is a certain amount of fucking around is important , as long as the work gets done .
It 's for the same reason that when I tell my boss I 'm not really feeling it today he says " go home if you want " .
It beats me sticking around getting paid to do nothing but fill a desk .
( large difference here is I 'm hourly , worker owned cooperative )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I'm messing around at work wasting time it means my brain isn't currently functioning.
I've usually been sitting at my desk working on a problem for the last few hours and I need time to get up and let my mind unwind.
The reason I consider this important because if I don't do this I will just sit at my desk staring blankly off into space.
I don't know why but it helps me to break up what I'm doing.
I consider these productive interruptions.
My brain gets to go back to the problem and start solving it again with a relatively fresh start.So basically what I'm saying is a certain amount of fucking around is important, as long as the work gets done.
It's for the same reason that when I tell my boss I'm not really feeling it today he says "go home if you want".
It beats me sticking around getting paid to do nothing but fill a desk.
(large difference here is I'm hourly, worker owned cooperative)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668168</id>
	<title>It starts from the top</title>
	<author>RedCuber</author>
	<datestamp>1262784960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm sure this will probably be an unpopular comment.. but it starts from the Top. I've recently joined a large investment bank in London (transferred back from the US) and it's IT dept 'was' run in a very similar manor. Lots of screwing around, no customer focus and a second-rate service.  If management are willing to tolerate it, and are not willing to put in the extra hours/effort to fix the culture of the department, nothing will change. I'm management and it's a continual up-hill struggle to motivate not only the team, but also the other managers. Happy to report though, we're making progress.

If i were the grad, either work your ass off to rise above the clutter, or ride the wave of bone-idol. Good luck!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sure this will probably be an unpopular comment.. but it starts from the Top .
I 've recently joined a large investment bank in London ( transferred back from the US ) and it 's IT dept 'was ' run in a very similar manor .
Lots of screwing around , no customer focus and a second-rate service .
If management are willing to tolerate it , and are not willing to put in the extra hours/effort to fix the culture of the department , nothing will change .
I 'm management and it 's a continual up-hill struggle to motivate not only the team , but also the other managers .
Happy to report though , we 're making progress .
If i were the grad , either work your ass off to rise above the clutter , or ride the wave of bone-idol .
Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sure this will probably be an unpopular comment.. but it starts from the Top.
I've recently joined a large investment bank in London (transferred back from the US) and it's IT dept 'was' run in a very similar manor.
Lots of screwing around, no customer focus and a second-rate service.
If management are willing to tolerate it, and are not willing to put in the extra hours/effort to fix the culture of the department, nothing will change.
I'm management and it's a continual up-hill struggle to motivate not only the team, but also the other managers.
Happy to report though, we're making progress.
If i were the grad, either work your ass off to rise above the clutter, or ride the wave of bone-idol.
Good luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667830</id>
	<title>balance</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262781480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A comfortable work-life balance is important and there is no right answer for everyone.</p><p>I am happy to work as hard as possible during my working hours and will stick to them quite strictly. But I see working hard as possible involving taking short breaks every now and then otherwise I feek I would actually be a less productive developer because I'll get a fuzzy head and frustrated.</p><p>I'm a young person, but my point of view on the importance of my personal life is more that in line with an older married person or one with children. My time outside of work spent with my girlfriend or on hobbies and family / friend occasions is something I value extremely highly, and I'm not prepared to compromise that by bending over backwards to suit an employer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A comfortable work-life balance is important and there is no right answer for everyone.I am happy to work as hard as possible during my working hours and will stick to them quite strictly .
But I see working hard as possible involving taking short breaks every now and then otherwise I feek I would actually be a less productive developer because I 'll get a fuzzy head and frustrated.I 'm a young person , but my point of view on the importance of my personal life is more that in line with an older married person or one with children .
My time outside of work spent with my girlfriend or on hobbies and family / friend occasions is something I value extremely highly , and I 'm not prepared to compromise that by bending over backwards to suit an employer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A comfortable work-life balance is important and there is no right answer for everyone.I am happy to work as hard as possible during my working hours and will stick to them quite strictly.
But I see working hard as possible involving taking short breaks every now and then otherwise I feek I would actually be a less productive developer because I'll get a fuzzy head and frustrated.I'm a young person, but my point of view on the importance of my personal life is more that in line with an older married person or one with children.
My time outside of work spent with my girlfriend or on hobbies and family / friend occasions is something I value extremely highly, and I'm not prepared to compromise that by bending over backwards to suit an employer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668872</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262790000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Shhhhhhh!!</p><p>Man, if you convince everyone they need to work hard, you're removing the "buffer" between those of use who do work hard and the next layoff. It's no secret that every organization, sales to software development, has its superstars. We thrive on working productively and being the "go to" person for hard problems. The fact that there are others getting paid to do very little isn't a problem for us, without them we'd look normal and maybe even a little dingy. They serve a purpose, and it's up to each individual to decide which group they are in. It sounds to me like the OP is a hacker in the making, but hasn't found his niche just yet. I've no doubt he will figure this out, though it might take a few job changes to get it all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Shhhhhhh !
! Man , if you convince everyone they need to work hard , you 're removing the " buffer " between those of use who do work hard and the next layoff .
It 's no secret that every organization , sales to software development , has its superstars .
We thrive on working productively and being the " go to " person for hard problems .
The fact that there are others getting paid to do very little is n't a problem for us , without them we 'd look normal and maybe even a little dingy .
They serve a purpose , and it 's up to each individual to decide which group they are in .
It sounds to me like the OP is a hacker in the making , but has n't found his niche just yet .
I 've no doubt he will figure this out , though it might take a few job changes to get it all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Shhhhhhh!
!Man, if you convince everyone they need to work hard, you're removing the "buffer" between those of use who do work hard and the next layoff.
It's no secret that every organization, sales to software development, has its superstars.
We thrive on working productively and being the "go to" person for hard problems.
The fact that there are others getting paid to do very little isn't a problem for us, without them we'd look normal and maybe even a little dingy.
They serve a purpose, and it's up to each individual to decide which group they are in.
It sounds to me like the OP is a hacker in the making, but hasn't found his niche just yet.
I've no doubt he will figure this out, though it might take a few job changes to get it all.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670644</id>
	<title>TRM</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262797800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When in Rome, do as the Romans do.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When in Rome , do as the Romans do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When in Rome, do as the Romans do.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669714</id>
	<title>get real...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262794380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In working with intellectual property professionals for a long time, I understand both sides of this.  The work is hard.  Every "knowledge worker" has their own way of doing things. You cannot schedule creativity.  The value of human relationships in the workplace often cannot be quantified.  But - and this is a BIG BUT - if left to their own devices, a lot of these folks will go totally overboard with the non-productive activities and even begin to rationalize it (as we have clearly seen in these posts) as an entitlement and a necessary part in the process - even when it is not.  Work is supposed to be hard, and to meet a deadline sometimes one has to push their way through a problem rather than waiting for the solution to eventually present itself (if it ever does).  Maybe the resulting code is not as elegant and will have to be optimized at some point, but at least progress is being made.</p><p>The situation the original post describes exists because 1) it is often hard to observe the difference when someone is mulling over a problem, taking a needed break, or is just goofing off; 2) management is doing the same thing and cannot lead by example; 3) management is totally ill-equipped to deal with "knowledge workers" to help them better self-monitor the use of their time; 4) the bubble has yet to burst in this situation so no one cares enough to fix it yet.</p><p>As far as this newbie is concerned, if you don't like it, you can start looking for a place to work that is more suited to your work style.  Don't be surprised if you cannot find it, however.  You may have to find a few folks who think like you and create your own business to get the environment you seek.</p><p>In the meantime:</p><p>Keep your mouth shut about your opinion of the lack of work ethic for now, as the person who rocks the boat is the most likely to get thrown overboard by the others.<br>Try to maintain your work ethic by getting your work done in a reasonable time frame and a reasonable rate.<br>Check out other places doing the work your company does and see if the work culture is any different.<br>When you can do it without ticking off the bosses, stop working the overtime when others are not.  The group should not be counting on you to prop up their lazy and sloppy work habits.<br>Start taking management courses. If you are actually the most productive member of the team, one day you may be called upon to lead- at least informally.  Be ready to do it.  Be ready to accept a promotion IF it comes your way (just remember, though, advancement is often who you know, not what you know, or what you can do).  If you get lucky and get promoted to management, be ready to lead by example and help clean up this mess.<br>Start looking for other opportunities, because if this place is a bad as you say, the bubble will burst someday and you might be out of a job before you are ready to move on your terms.</p><p>Regards.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In working with intellectual property professionals for a long time , I understand both sides of this .
The work is hard .
Every " knowledge worker " has their own way of doing things .
You can not schedule creativity .
The value of human relationships in the workplace often can not be quantified .
But - and this is a BIG BUT - if left to their own devices , a lot of these folks will go totally overboard with the non-productive activities and even begin to rationalize it ( as we have clearly seen in these posts ) as an entitlement and a necessary part in the process - even when it is not .
Work is supposed to be hard , and to meet a deadline sometimes one has to push their way through a problem rather than waiting for the solution to eventually present itself ( if it ever does ) .
Maybe the resulting code is not as elegant and will have to be optimized at some point , but at least progress is being made.The situation the original post describes exists because 1 ) it is often hard to observe the difference when someone is mulling over a problem , taking a needed break , or is just goofing off ; 2 ) management is doing the same thing and can not lead by example ; 3 ) management is totally ill-equipped to deal with " knowledge workers " to help them better self-monitor the use of their time ; 4 ) the bubble has yet to burst in this situation so no one cares enough to fix it yet.As far as this newbie is concerned , if you do n't like it , you can start looking for a place to work that is more suited to your work style .
Do n't be surprised if you can not find it , however .
You may have to find a few folks who think like you and create your own business to get the environment you seek.In the meantime : Keep your mouth shut about your opinion of the lack of work ethic for now , as the person who rocks the boat is the most likely to get thrown overboard by the others.Try to maintain your work ethic by getting your work done in a reasonable time frame and a reasonable rate.Check out other places doing the work your company does and see if the work culture is any different.When you can do it without ticking off the bosses , stop working the overtime when others are not .
The group should not be counting on you to prop up their lazy and sloppy work habits.Start taking management courses .
If you are actually the most productive member of the team , one day you may be called upon to lead- at least informally .
Be ready to do it .
Be ready to accept a promotion IF it comes your way ( just remember , though , advancement is often who you know , not what you know , or what you can do ) .
If you get lucky and get promoted to management , be ready to lead by example and help clean up this mess.Start looking for other opportunities , because if this place is a bad as you say , the bubble will burst someday and you might be out of a job before you are ready to move on your terms.Regards .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In working with intellectual property professionals for a long time, I understand both sides of this.
The work is hard.
Every "knowledge worker" has their own way of doing things.
You cannot schedule creativity.
The value of human relationships in the workplace often cannot be quantified.
But - and this is a BIG BUT - if left to their own devices, a lot of these folks will go totally overboard with the non-productive activities and even begin to rationalize it (as we have clearly seen in these posts) as an entitlement and a necessary part in the process - even when it is not.
Work is supposed to be hard, and to meet a deadline sometimes one has to push their way through a problem rather than waiting for the solution to eventually present itself (if it ever does).
Maybe the resulting code is not as elegant and will have to be optimized at some point, but at least progress is being made.The situation the original post describes exists because 1) it is often hard to observe the difference when someone is mulling over a problem, taking a needed break, or is just goofing off; 2) management is doing the same thing and cannot lead by example; 3) management is totally ill-equipped to deal with "knowledge workers" to help them better self-monitor the use of their time; 4) the bubble has yet to burst in this situation so no one cares enough to fix it yet.As far as this newbie is concerned, if you don't like it, you can start looking for a place to work that is more suited to your work style.
Don't be surprised if you cannot find it, however.
You may have to find a few folks who think like you and create your own business to get the environment you seek.In the meantime:Keep your mouth shut about your opinion of the lack of work ethic for now, as the person who rocks the boat is the most likely to get thrown overboard by the others.Try to maintain your work ethic by getting your work done in a reasonable time frame and a reasonable rate.Check out other places doing the work your company does and see if the work culture is any different.When you can do it without ticking off the bosses, stop working the overtime when others are not.
The group should not be counting on you to prop up their lazy and sloppy work habits.Start taking management courses.
If you are actually the most productive member of the team, one day you may be called upon to lead- at least informally.
Be ready to do it.
Be ready to accept a promotion IF it comes your way (just remember, though, advancement is often who you know, not what you know, or what you can do).
If you get lucky and get promoted to management, be ready to lead by example and help clean up this mess.Start looking for other opportunities, because if this place is a bad as you say, the bubble will burst someday and you might be out of a job before you are ready to move on your terms.Regards.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667346</id>
	<title>People aren't robots</title>
	<author>AuMatar</author>
	<datestamp>1262776200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They aren't going to sit down, do 8 straight hours of work, then go home.  You'll burn out even trying.  People work better with short, frequent breaks taken at their own rate.  So long as they get the work done, there's no problem.  The only issue I see here is you-  first off, grow some balls and refuse to work the extra hours.  Trust me, you won't be rewarded for them.  Secondly, unless someone isn't making their individual units of work, mind your own business.  Or maybe even join in the next time they talk football, you might make a friend or two.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They are n't going to sit down , do 8 straight hours of work , then go home .
You 'll burn out even trying .
People work better with short , frequent breaks taken at their own rate .
So long as they get the work done , there 's no problem .
The only issue I see here is you- first off , grow some balls and refuse to work the extra hours .
Trust me , you wo n't be rewarded for them .
Secondly , unless someone is n't making their individual units of work , mind your own business .
Or maybe even join in the next time they talk football , you might make a friend or two .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They aren't going to sit down, do 8 straight hours of work, then go home.
You'll burn out even trying.
People work better with short, frequent breaks taken at their own rate.
So long as they get the work done, there's no problem.
The only issue I see here is you-  first off, grow some balls and refuse to work the extra hours.
Trust me, you won't be rewarded for them.
Secondly, unless someone isn't making their individual units of work, mind your own business.
Or maybe even join in the next time they talk football, you might make a friend or two.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667686</id>
	<title>Pay your dues in respect, peace and silence</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262779980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are green, so keep that in mind when I call you a proper wanker.  You work the shit jobs not because everyone else is fucking off but because you need to pay your dues mate.  This should be true everywhere.  You may be superfly TNT mental giant wonderbra and your manager could be half a monkey's cortex but as far as management is concerned, he has shown up every day for the past 5 years and all you do it bitch.  Who's the liability?</p><p>First thought is good for both women and business.  If you walk around and point out flaws you see in the system, you are going to create two effects for yourself.  You are going to get frustrated with the workplace and the workplace is going to get frustrated with you.  The former makes you look like a know-it-all and the latter is because you question people's competence without enough experience.  Similarly, if you meet a women and start to critique her decisions, the result will be the same.  You have two options: 1) accept what is in front of you; 2) go somewhere else.  But you don't want to go somewhere else because there's so much about THIS situation that could be fixed so we can all MAKE MORE MONEY.  Don't go down that road, dog.  Sit back, relax and enjoy the easy work.  Have fun.  Watch some football and goof off.  It's a recession and people are holding on tight to their jobs.  Your chances of shooting up are low.  So kick it, maybe have a beer.  Hopefully get laid and just do your work and listen.</p><p>Second, well, there is no second but I think a lot of you can use some advice in this area -- and by you I mean grads.  Because I was the same way.  Gung-ho.  In a rush.  Complaining about wankers.  Until I realized that in fact, I was the wanker.  Go watch Glengarry Glen Ross -- learn the score before you say anything.</p><p>And remember, if you don't like the way something is done, you can always go start your own business.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are green , so keep that in mind when I call you a proper wanker .
You work the shit jobs not because everyone else is fucking off but because you need to pay your dues mate .
This should be true everywhere .
You may be superfly TNT mental giant wonderbra and your manager could be half a monkey 's cortex but as far as management is concerned , he has shown up every day for the past 5 years and all you do it bitch .
Who 's the liability ? First thought is good for both women and business .
If you walk around and point out flaws you see in the system , you are going to create two effects for yourself .
You are going to get frustrated with the workplace and the workplace is going to get frustrated with you .
The former makes you look like a know-it-all and the latter is because you question people 's competence without enough experience .
Similarly , if you meet a women and start to critique her decisions , the result will be the same .
You have two options : 1 ) accept what is in front of you ; 2 ) go somewhere else .
But you do n't want to go somewhere else because there 's so much about THIS situation that could be fixed so we can all MAKE MORE MONEY .
Do n't go down that road , dog .
Sit back , relax and enjoy the easy work .
Have fun .
Watch some football and goof off .
It 's a recession and people are holding on tight to their jobs .
Your chances of shooting up are low .
So kick it , maybe have a beer .
Hopefully get laid and just do your work and listen.Second , well , there is no second but I think a lot of you can use some advice in this area -- and by you I mean grads .
Because I was the same way .
Gung-ho. In a rush .
Complaining about wankers .
Until I realized that in fact , I was the wanker .
Go watch Glengarry Glen Ross -- learn the score before you say anything.And remember , if you do n't like the way something is done , you can always go start your own business .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are green, so keep that in mind when I call you a proper wanker.
You work the shit jobs not because everyone else is fucking off but because you need to pay your dues mate.
This should be true everywhere.
You may be superfly TNT mental giant wonderbra and your manager could be half a monkey's cortex but as far as management is concerned, he has shown up every day for the past 5 years and all you do it bitch.
Who's the liability?First thought is good for both women and business.
If you walk around and point out flaws you see in the system, you are going to create two effects for yourself.
You are going to get frustrated with the workplace and the workplace is going to get frustrated with you.
The former makes you look like a know-it-all and the latter is because you question people's competence without enough experience.
Similarly, if you meet a women and start to critique her decisions, the result will be the same.
You have two options: 1) accept what is in front of you; 2) go somewhere else.
But you don't want to go somewhere else because there's so much about THIS situation that could be fixed so we can all MAKE MORE MONEY.
Don't go down that road, dog.
Sit back, relax and enjoy the easy work.
Have fun.
Watch some football and goof off.
It's a recession and people are holding on tight to their jobs.
Your chances of shooting up are low.
So kick it, maybe have a beer.
Hopefully get laid and just do your work and listen.Second, well, there is no second but I think a lot of you can use some advice in this area -- and by you I mean grads.
Because I was the same way.
Gung-ho.  In a rush.
Complaining about wankers.
Until I realized that in fact, I was the wanker.
Go watch Glengarry Glen Ross -- learn the score before you say anything.And remember, if you don't like the way something is done, you can always go start your own business.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669458</id>
	<title>Different strokes for different folks</title>
	<author>asmo79</author>
	<datestamp>1262793060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I first started in I.T. my group manager left after a a few months, and they never bothered to replace him, so our group started reporting to the PHB, and he pretty much forgot about us. At first I thought it was great, I was coming in late, leaving early, working on my own projects, but eventually it just got me down. I was doing nothing productive, and my skills were stagnating, so I made the decision to up anchor and leave. What followed was a rollercoaster tour of various office hells and nirvanas.


hells:
*The startup with lots of work to do but insane micromanaging boss who never leaves you alone long enough to get anything done.
*The established company moving into a new field with grand ideas, but which never gets around to actually signing anything off and wastes your time and theirs.
*The agency who just puts you somewhere and doesn't care if your not suitable, as long as they can bill for you.


All these places drove me mad, and I spoke up about it, and I had the balls to get up and leave if they weren't right for me and vice versa.

heavens:
*Companies who recognise your skills, and trust you to get on with the job.


I'm currently contracting right now, and today I haven't wrote much. I've surfed the web, replied here, etc. But, we are in a downtime, I'm waiting for feedback and I'm refactoring bits of code, etc. The main thing I am doing however is thinking about how to make my product better, and seeing how others do things. And that looks a lot like doing nothing.


Some companies are a complete waste of time, full of people happy to sit on their butts and cash money they don't earn. If your happy with that go with it, but sooner or later reality will bite and you will realise you know f**k all about anything.


But, the main part of a programmers job in my expereince is thinking before they code, and if your in a company that recognises that then your are in a good position.


Sounds to me though that the OP is in a sh**e company though and needs to move ASAP.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I first started in I.T .
my group manager left after a a few months , and they never bothered to replace him , so our group started reporting to the PHB , and he pretty much forgot about us .
At first I thought it was great , I was coming in late , leaving early , working on my own projects , but eventually it just got me down .
I was doing nothing productive , and my skills were stagnating , so I made the decision to up anchor and leave .
What followed was a rollercoaster tour of various office hells and nirvanas .
hells : * The startup with lots of work to do but insane micromanaging boss who never leaves you alone long enough to get anything done .
* The established company moving into a new field with grand ideas , but which never gets around to actually signing anything off and wastes your time and theirs .
* The agency who just puts you somewhere and does n't care if your not suitable , as long as they can bill for you .
All these places drove me mad , and I spoke up about it , and I had the balls to get up and leave if they were n't right for me and vice versa .
heavens : * Companies who recognise your skills , and trust you to get on with the job .
I 'm currently contracting right now , and today I have n't wrote much .
I 've surfed the web , replied here , etc .
But , we are in a downtime , I 'm waiting for feedback and I 'm refactoring bits of code , etc .
The main thing I am doing however is thinking about how to make my product better , and seeing how others do things .
And that looks a lot like doing nothing .
Some companies are a complete waste of time , full of people happy to sit on their butts and cash money they do n't earn .
If your happy with that go with it , but sooner or later reality will bite and you will realise you know f * * k all about anything .
But , the main part of a programmers job in my expereince is thinking before they code , and if your in a company that recognises that then your are in a good position .
Sounds to me though that the OP is in a sh * * e company though and needs to move ASAP .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I first started in I.T.
my group manager left after a a few months, and they never bothered to replace him, so our group started reporting to the PHB, and he pretty much forgot about us.
At first I thought it was great, I was coming in late, leaving early, working on my own projects, but eventually it just got me down.
I was doing nothing productive, and my skills were stagnating, so I made the decision to up anchor and leave.
What followed was a rollercoaster tour of various office hells and nirvanas.
hells:
*The startup with lots of work to do but insane micromanaging boss who never leaves you alone long enough to get anything done.
*The established company moving into a new field with grand ideas, but which never gets around to actually signing anything off and wastes your time and theirs.
*The agency who just puts you somewhere and doesn't care if your not suitable, as long as they can bill for you.
All these places drove me mad, and I spoke up about it, and I had the balls to get up and leave if they weren't right for me and vice versa.
heavens:
*Companies who recognise your skills, and trust you to get on with the job.
I'm currently contracting right now, and today I haven't wrote much.
I've surfed the web, replied here, etc.
But, we are in a downtime, I'm waiting for feedback and I'm refactoring bits of code, etc.
The main thing I am doing however is thinking about how to make my product better, and seeing how others do things.
And that looks a lot like doing nothing.
Some companies are a complete waste of time, full of people happy to sit on their butts and cash money they don't earn.
If your happy with that go with it, but sooner or later reality will bite and you will realise you know f**k all about anything.
But, the main part of a programmers job in my expereince is thinking before they code, and if your in a company that recognises that then your are in a good position.
Sounds to me though that the OP is in a sh**e company though and needs to move ASAP.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30680876</id>
	<title>Well!</title>
	<author>Phoghat</author>
	<datestamp>1262868540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Co-workers wasting time, cruising the net, etc.?

<p> I'm shocked, shocked I say.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Co-workers wasting time , cruising the net , etc. ?
I 'm shocked , shocked I say .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Co-workers wasting time, cruising the net, etc.?
I'm shocked, shocked I say.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669250</id>
	<title>you will learn not to suck</title>
	<author>slmdmd</author>
	<datestamp>1262792100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I hate people who work on weekends.  Working on weekends means you were not smart enough to finish your work in the allocated project hours.  If the project plan is poor and the work is impossible to complete in the regular allotted hours then lodge a complaint with your seniors or the HR and get your Project Manager fired.

Freshers like you are generally not smart enough, that is understandable but if your PM also rewards weekend and late hour work then people like you will be inducing an weekend work culture.  If that happens to me, that is, if my PM forces me to work on weekends, yes I will do FTP during regular hours. FTP stands for - Full Time Pass.  If the FTP privileges are also curtailed then I will start looking for a new job.  Simple rule  - Time = Money.  We earn money to earn Quality time, not the other way i.e. give away the weekend  quality time for money.   I regularly fire freshers who end up working into weekends.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I hate people who work on weekends .
Working on weekends means you were not smart enough to finish your work in the allocated project hours .
If the project plan is poor and the work is impossible to complete in the regular allotted hours then lodge a complaint with your seniors or the HR and get your Project Manager fired .
Freshers like you are generally not smart enough , that is understandable but if your PM also rewards weekend and late hour work then people like you will be inducing an weekend work culture .
If that happens to me , that is , if my PM forces me to work on weekends , yes I will do FTP during regular hours .
FTP stands for - Full Time Pass .
If the FTP privileges are also curtailed then I will start looking for a new job .
Simple rule - Time = Money .
We earn money to earn Quality time , not the other way i.e .
give away the weekend quality time for money .
I regularly fire freshers who end up working into weekends .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hate people who work on weekends.
Working on weekends means you were not smart enough to finish your work in the allocated project hours.
If the project plan is poor and the work is impossible to complete in the regular allotted hours then lodge a complaint with your seniors or the HR and get your Project Manager fired.
Freshers like you are generally not smart enough, that is understandable but if your PM also rewards weekend and late hour work then people like you will be inducing an weekend work culture.
If that happens to me, that is, if my PM forces me to work on weekends, yes I will do FTP during regular hours.
FTP stands for - Full Time Pass.
If the FTP privileges are also curtailed then I will start looking for a new job.
Simple rule  - Time = Money.
We earn money to earn Quality time, not the other way i.e.
give away the weekend  quality time for money.
I regularly fire freshers who end up working into weekends.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667600</id>
	<title>Only one thing you can do</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262778720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As others have pointed out: keep working hard. Don't raise the issue unless you want to be a pariah. And just to be sure, make sure you double and triple assess the actual work they produce - e.g. I worked in finance, and couldn't believe the lunches and goofing around of other people- but then I realised they actually were very good at their jobs and could create more useful action with a single email than me in a day. With experience and seniority you are allowed to make a tradeoff and put in slightly fewer hours alongside your very much boosted productivity. Call it social contract.</p><p>If you double and triple assess, and still feel quality is low - then work hard, *learn as much as possible*, keep your head down on complaints, and discreetly look for jobs elsewhere. There are big differences in what the top employers pay.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As others have pointed out : keep working hard .
Do n't raise the issue unless you want to be a pariah .
And just to be sure , make sure you double and triple assess the actual work they produce - e.g .
I worked in finance , and could n't believe the lunches and goofing around of other people- but then I realised they actually were very good at their jobs and could create more useful action with a single email than me in a day .
With experience and seniority you are allowed to make a tradeoff and put in slightly fewer hours alongside your very much boosted productivity .
Call it social contract.If you double and triple assess , and still feel quality is low - then work hard , * learn as much as possible * , keep your head down on complaints , and discreetly look for jobs elsewhere .
There are big differences in what the top employers pay .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As others have pointed out: keep working hard.
Don't raise the issue unless you want to be a pariah.
And just to be sure, make sure you double and triple assess the actual work they produce - e.g.
I worked in finance, and couldn't believe the lunches and goofing around of other people- but then I realised they actually were very good at their jobs and could create more useful action with a single email than me in a day.
With experience and seniority you are allowed to make a tradeoff and put in slightly fewer hours alongside your very much boosted productivity.
Call it social contract.If you double and triple assess, and still feel quality is low - then work hard, *learn as much as possible*, keep your head down on complaints, and discreetly look for jobs elsewhere.
There are big differences in what the top employers pay.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667696</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262780040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work. Everybody works hard. There's nothing special about coding.  My workday include tasks that are both physically and mentally taxing, I often juggle several tasks at once and am held to a very high standard of quality. Man up, buckle down and produce because you don't work in a vacuum.</p></div><p>That is true for any kind of work<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D I agree with the sentiment you expressed: perhaps it is the US's relaxed attitude to work?</p><p>Relaxed attitudes exist in every society for sure, but a "in principle we shouldn't do this" may be what is missing.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work .
Everybody works hard .
There 's nothing special about coding .
My workday include tasks that are both physically and mentally taxing , I often juggle several tasks at once and am held to a very high standard of quality .
Man up , buckle down and produce because you do n't work in a vacuum.That is true for any kind of work : D I agree with the sentiment you expressed : perhaps it is the US 's relaxed attitude to work ? Relaxed attitudes exist in every society for sure , but a " in principle we should n't do this " may be what is missing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work.
Everybody works hard.
There's nothing special about coding.
My workday include tasks that are both physically and mentally taxing, I often juggle several tasks at once and am held to a very high standard of quality.
Man up, buckle down and produce because you don't work in a vacuum.That is true for any kind of work :D I agree with the sentiment you expressed: perhaps it is the US's relaxed attitude to work?Relaxed attitudes exist in every society for sure, but a "in principle we shouldn't do this" may be what is missing.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668356</id>
	<title>Get a life newbie</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262786520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What is your problem.  If you weren't just out of college you would know working I.T. is grueling.  We work long hours get woke up in the middle of the night.  After being in this field for 15+ years I have realized one thing.  If my job take time away from my personal life then I can have some person time at work.  Maybe after you have been in the field for a little while you will see that.  Or are you one of those folks that heard how great I.T. is from the radio adds about training.  The truth is we are very hard worked.  Even more so in these economic times.  Most of us are from shops that have had layoff and are wearing multiple hats.  All I can say is this.  In no time you will be one of those that waste time.  The key is to get your work done.  No offense  I could do more in one day at work then you can do in three  days.    So get experience, learn your job, and shut up!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What is your problem .
If you were n't just out of college you would know working I.T .
is grueling .
We work long hours get woke up in the middle of the night .
After being in this field for 15 + years I have realized one thing .
If my job take time away from my personal life then I can have some person time at work .
Maybe after you have been in the field for a little while you will see that .
Or are you one of those folks that heard how great I.T .
is from the radio adds about training .
The truth is we are very hard worked .
Even more so in these economic times .
Most of us are from shops that have had layoff and are wearing multiple hats .
All I can say is this .
In no time you will be one of those that waste time .
The key is to get your work done .
No offense I could do more in one day at work then you can do in three days .
So get experience , learn your job , and shut up !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What is your problem.
If you weren't just out of college you would know working I.T.
is grueling.
We work long hours get woke up in the middle of the night.
After being in this field for 15+ years I have realized one thing.
If my job take time away from my personal life then I can have some person time at work.
Maybe after you have been in the field for a little while you will see that.
Or are you one of those folks that heard how great I.T.
is from the radio adds about training.
The truth is we are very hard worked.
Even more so in these economic times.
Most of us are from shops that have had layoff and are wearing multiple hats.
All I can say is this.
In no time you will be one of those that waste time.
The key is to get your work done.
No offense  I could do more in one day at work then you can do in three  days.
So get experience, learn your job, and shut up!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30671464</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>composer777</author>
	<datestamp>1262800860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Change your job description to working on a different organism with completely different anatomy each time, with new problems each time, and you're getting close to what programmers have to deal with.  There are no "procedures" in programming.  Nothing is rote, it's improvised problem solving, often for unique problems that is outside one's domain of expertise, which requires learning quite a bit of new information in order to properly understand the problem.  Sure, there are patterns, and other techniques designed to help standardize approaches to certain classes of problems, but even then, getting too locked into these approaches can make things worse, not better.  I've worked many jobs, from research in chemistry to IT, and programming is one of the only ones where there is very little auto-pilot.  You have to be on and 100\% engaged, and it's exhausting.</p><p>As far as the competition, I've seen it, the best and brightest from the 3rd world, working over here, and I'm not impressed.  It's a bluff that people who don't know better like to use, but the threat isn't very real.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Change your job description to working on a different organism with completely different anatomy each time , with new problems each time , and you 're getting close to what programmers have to deal with .
There are no " procedures " in programming .
Nothing is rote , it 's improvised problem solving , often for unique problems that is outside one 's domain of expertise , which requires learning quite a bit of new information in order to properly understand the problem .
Sure , there are patterns , and other techniques designed to help standardize approaches to certain classes of problems , but even then , getting too locked into these approaches can make things worse , not better .
I 've worked many jobs , from research in chemistry to IT , and programming is one of the only ones where there is very little auto-pilot .
You have to be on and 100 \ % engaged , and it 's exhausting.As far as the competition , I 've seen it , the best and brightest from the 3rd world , working over here , and I 'm not impressed .
It 's a bluff that people who do n't know better like to use , but the threat is n't very real .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Change your job description to working on a different organism with completely different anatomy each time, with new problems each time, and you're getting close to what programmers have to deal with.
There are no "procedures" in programming.
Nothing is rote, it's improvised problem solving, often for unique problems that is outside one's domain of expertise, which requires learning quite a bit of new information in order to properly understand the problem.
Sure, there are patterns, and other techniques designed to help standardize approaches to certain classes of problems, but even then, getting too locked into these approaches can make things worse, not better.
I've worked many jobs, from research in chemistry to IT, and programming is one of the only ones where there is very little auto-pilot.
You have to be on and 100\% engaged, and it's exhausting.As far as the competition, I've seen it, the best and brightest from the 3rd world, working over here, and I'm not impressed.
It's a bluff that people who don't know better like to use, but the threat isn't very real.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668988</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667624</id>
	<title>Your company isn't prepared to pay for work ethic</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262779140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I know it sounds funny but your company (assuming it is a decent size shop) isn't prepared to pay for work ethic.  To get a group of expert developers who are willing to work 40, 50 or 70 hours (and I mean really work) requires that they pay huge hourly rates, reward success monetarily, and provide expensive benefits that allow someone to spend that amount of time in high gear.  Companies are sometimes willing to do this for jobs they view as most valuable (e.g. executives or some jobs in their core competency that accounts for revenue directly).  Unfortunately companies see developers as commodities and don't want to pay these rates since the way you make a commodity more valuable is to buy it cheaply.  Additionally, they don't understand the work being done (which is partially why the see developers as commodities) and can't really tell you when a developer is productive or not.  They respond to their lack of knowledge by burdening the developer with all sorts of process to try to control the fact they don't understand what is really happening and lower their perceived risk.</p><p>All of this leads to an unmotivated developer who gets paid the same whether he goofs off for 90\% of the time or works like a dog.  As a result developers tend to gravitate toward a least common denominator or commodity level of productivity.  This means the really good ones can work 1/10th speed and keep up with the average level.  Heck even average developers can work half speed in this type of environment.  By viewing and managing developers as commodities companies have created the very reality that they will act like commodities.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I know it sounds funny but your company ( assuming it is a decent size shop ) is n't prepared to pay for work ethic .
To get a group of expert developers who are willing to work 40 , 50 or 70 hours ( and I mean really work ) requires that they pay huge hourly rates , reward success monetarily , and provide expensive benefits that allow someone to spend that amount of time in high gear .
Companies are sometimes willing to do this for jobs they view as most valuable ( e.g .
executives or some jobs in their core competency that accounts for revenue directly ) .
Unfortunately companies see developers as commodities and do n't want to pay these rates since the way you make a commodity more valuable is to buy it cheaply .
Additionally , they do n't understand the work being done ( which is partially why the see developers as commodities ) and ca n't really tell you when a developer is productive or not .
They respond to their lack of knowledge by burdening the developer with all sorts of process to try to control the fact they do n't understand what is really happening and lower their perceived risk.All of this leads to an unmotivated developer who gets paid the same whether he goofs off for 90 \ % of the time or works like a dog .
As a result developers tend to gravitate toward a least common denominator or commodity level of productivity .
This means the really good ones can work 1/10th speed and keep up with the average level .
Heck even average developers can work half speed in this type of environment .
By viewing and managing developers as commodities companies have created the very reality that they will act like commodities .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know it sounds funny but your company (assuming it is a decent size shop) isn't prepared to pay for work ethic.
To get a group of expert developers who are willing to work 40, 50 or 70 hours (and I mean really work) requires that they pay huge hourly rates, reward success monetarily, and provide expensive benefits that allow someone to spend that amount of time in high gear.
Companies are sometimes willing to do this for jobs they view as most valuable (e.g.
executives or some jobs in their core competency that accounts for revenue directly).
Unfortunately companies see developers as commodities and don't want to pay these rates since the way you make a commodity more valuable is to buy it cheaply.
Additionally, they don't understand the work being done (which is partially why the see developers as commodities) and can't really tell you when a developer is productive or not.
They respond to their lack of knowledge by burdening the developer with all sorts of process to try to control the fact they don't understand what is really happening and lower their perceived risk.All of this leads to an unmotivated developer who gets paid the same whether he goofs off for 90\% of the time or works like a dog.
As a result developers tend to gravitate toward a least common denominator or commodity level of productivity.
This means the really good ones can work 1/10th speed and keep up with the average level.
Heck even average developers can work half speed in this type of environment.
By viewing and managing developers as commodities companies have created the very reality that they will act like commodities.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669204</id>
	<title>You are all ready way ahead of most</title>
	<author>unclegus</author>
	<datestamp>1262791920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Work your ass off. In no time you'll be their manager. Trust me. If you want to be professional, then be professional. Work as hard as you desire. It's what you get out of it, not what others do. Get used to encountering an incredible amount of idiots, morons, slackers. etc in the work place. It's pure statistics, if everyone were like you the world would be a better place, however you'll quickly realize there are more idiots in the world than not. Someone has to tell them what to do. Prepare yourself to realize that you can work your ass off, run circles around your peers, and not see an equitable compensation. You have to work your ass off, build your resume, work there 3-5 years and make a move to another company, take your experience and your professional work ethic and cash in on that. Also keep in mind that more often than not, managers are worse because the majority are managers because they caused more issues as developers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Work your ass off .
In no time you 'll be their manager .
Trust me .
If you want to be professional , then be professional .
Work as hard as you desire .
It 's what you get out of it , not what others do .
Get used to encountering an incredible amount of idiots , morons , slackers .
etc in the work place .
It 's pure statistics , if everyone were like you the world would be a better place , however you 'll quickly realize there are more idiots in the world than not .
Someone has to tell them what to do .
Prepare yourself to realize that you can work your ass off , run circles around your peers , and not see an equitable compensation .
You have to work your ass off , build your resume , work there 3-5 years and make a move to another company , take your experience and your professional work ethic and cash in on that .
Also keep in mind that more often than not , managers are worse because the majority are managers because they caused more issues as developers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Work your ass off.
In no time you'll be their manager.
Trust me.
If you want to be professional, then be professional.
Work as hard as you desire.
It's what you get out of it, not what others do.
Get used to encountering an incredible amount of idiots, morons, slackers.
etc in the work place.
It's pure statistics, if everyone were like you the world would be a better place, however you'll quickly realize there are more idiots in the world than not.
Someone has to tell them what to do.
Prepare yourself to realize that you can work your ass off, run circles around your peers, and not see an equitable compensation.
You have to work your ass off, build your resume, work there 3-5 years and make a move to another company, take your experience and your professional work ethic and cash in on that.
Also keep in mind that more often than not, managers are worse because the majority are managers because they caused more issues as developers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667610</id>
	<title>Then maybe they're just no good</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262778840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Then maybe they're just no good and if they worked more hours, instead of better code, they'd produce more bad code.</p><p>Why is it that CEOs get to play golf as a work activity? And your statement "Why is it that coders" indicates you don't know what concentration is required to code. When you studied for exams, you were told to take a 10 minute break every 20 minutes AT LEAST or you'll not manage to do more work, just take more time.</p><p>And that's not for a day-to-day job. That's for a one-off deadline.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Then maybe they 're just no good and if they worked more hours , instead of better code , they 'd produce more bad code.Why is it that CEOs get to play golf as a work activity ?
And your statement " Why is it that coders " indicates you do n't know what concentration is required to code .
When you studied for exams , you were told to take a 10 minute break every 20 minutes AT LEAST or you 'll not manage to do more work , just take more time.And that 's not for a day-to-day job .
That 's for a one-off deadline .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then maybe they're just no good and if they worked more hours, instead of better code, they'd produce more bad code.Why is it that CEOs get to play golf as a work activity?
And your statement "Why is it that coders" indicates you don't know what concentration is required to code.
When you studied for exams, you were told to take a 10 minute break every 20 minutes AT LEAST or you'll not manage to do more work, just take more time.And that's not for a day-to-day job.
That's for a one-off deadline.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30671880</id>
	<title>Get to work</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262802600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Since you are doing all of the work you'd better quit surfing slashdot and get back to work. And please, please quit whining!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Since you are doing all of the work you 'd better quit surfing slashdot and get back to work .
And please , please quit whining !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Since you are doing all of the work you'd better quit surfing slashdot and get back to work.
And please, please quit whining!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667782</id>
	<title>imho</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262781060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Most IT slackers have been effectively punished for taking initiative when they were young and idealistic so now they mosey through their existence in exchange for a modest compensation.   If a company treats their staff well and encourages work, self actualization, and initiative  through tangible real life benefits this doesn't happen so much.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most IT slackers have been effectively punished for taking initiative when they were young and idealistic so now they mosey through their existence in exchange for a modest compensation .
If a company treats their staff well and encourages work , self actualization , and initiative through tangible real life benefits this does n't happen so much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most IT slackers have been effectively punished for taking initiative when they were young and idealistic so now they mosey through their existence in exchange for a modest compensation.
If a company treats their staff well and encourages work, self actualization, and initiative  through tangible real life benefits this doesn't happen so much.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668992</id>
	<title>ups and down times</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262790780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We have some insane proclamation with equally insane targets announced from on high with no advanced notice.  We work like mad people for weeks or months to accomplish the impossible.  Drained and mentally exhausted you take advantage of the down time between said proclamations.  This down time can be a hours, a day or even a week or two.  Learn to go with the flow.</p><p>The more experienced you are the easier the job.  A task for an expert may take an hour while new guy might take a day or week.  Also the Senior people most like have similar projects they have work on in the past and can re-use code and documentation.  Making friends with co-workers mean they are more than likely to help you out and maybe even give you old code or documents to help start you out.</p><p>I know when I started out I did a bunch of 16 hour days... in part because I wanted to learn.  And learn I did.  Now as an expert in the field I can do amazing things, ask friends/co-workers for help and help them, and two hours of my work now would accomplish what took me 16 hours do to when I started.  At times it may seem like I am not working (checking Slashdot stories) but my mind is working.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We have some insane proclamation with equally insane targets announced from on high with no advanced notice .
We work like mad people for weeks or months to accomplish the impossible .
Drained and mentally exhausted you take advantage of the down time between said proclamations .
This down time can be a hours , a day or even a week or two .
Learn to go with the flow.The more experienced you are the easier the job .
A task for an expert may take an hour while new guy might take a day or week .
Also the Senior people most like have similar projects they have work on in the past and can re-use code and documentation .
Making friends with co-workers mean they are more than likely to help you out and maybe even give you old code or documents to help start you out.I know when I started out I did a bunch of 16 hour days... in part because I wanted to learn .
And learn I did .
Now as an expert in the field I can do amazing things , ask friends/co-workers for help and help them , and two hours of my work now would accomplish what took me 16 hours do to when I started .
At times it may seem like I am not working ( checking Slashdot stories ) but my mind is working .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We have some insane proclamation with equally insane targets announced from on high with no advanced notice.
We work like mad people for weeks or months to accomplish the impossible.
Drained and mentally exhausted you take advantage of the down time between said proclamations.
This down time can be a hours, a day or even a week or two.
Learn to go with the flow.The more experienced you are the easier the job.
A task for an expert may take an hour while new guy might take a day or week.
Also the Senior people most like have similar projects they have work on in the past and can re-use code and documentation.
Making friends with co-workers mean they are more than likely to help you out and maybe even give you old code or documents to help start you out.I know when I started out I did a bunch of 16 hour days... in part because I wanted to learn.
And learn I did.
Now as an expert in the field I can do amazing things, ask friends/co-workers for help and help them, and two hours of my work now would accomplish what took me 16 hours do to when I started.
At times it may seem like I am not working (checking Slashdot stories) but my mind is working.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30675534</id>
	<title>Re:Hang Gliding while being paid to write code...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262775300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p>The other problem is that the work ethic has slipped off quite a bit</p></div></div><p>Oh...Please spare us the moral panic<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....</p><p><div class="quote"><p>The work ethic has been slipping since WW2 ended.  Organizations (not just companies) got so large that a manager could take actions adversely affecting thousands of anonymous employees with impunity. As managers  were rewarded for these actions, others copied and amplified their actions.</p></div><p>...times 2.</p><p>How about this...As people have become more productive, they don't need to work the full eight hours of a day to complete what was 8 hours of work 10 years ago.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Bernie Madoff was, by all accounts, a decent man.</p></div><p>Actually, most accounts I have read is that he was an eccentric, ADD freak who pushed a lot of people around. Ripping off strangers or family, I doubt it would make a bit off difference. (Hint: He was moving money to people he trusted he could manipulate into moving it back to him while he was in jail, not because he didn't want to screw them.)</p><p>Poor example maybe, but I'll concede "normal" people are less likely to rip off family. Bernie - and a whole lot of other people - though is not normal.</p><p><nobr> <wbr></nobr></p><div class="quote"><p>... everyone in the organization knows everyone else well enough that no one can hide misbehavior.</p></div><p>Or that they feel comfortable / open enough knowing that they can discuss the matter before acting unilaterally. For example, leader makes decision I'm not comfortable with...I go to leader and make my case. Leader explains issues I wasn't aware of or takes my advice and adopts my position.</p><p>Basically, leaders have to be secure in themselves and be willing to elucidate their positions. The current corporate environment doesn't really facilitate this. Indeed, the desperation most managers feel to maintain their positions makes it unlikely they will ever get to this point. Younger people have less to lose and thus can afford to respond in a more flexible manner.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The other problem is that the work ethic has slipped off quite a bitOh...Please spare us the moral panic ....The work ethic has been slipping since WW2 ended .
Organizations ( not just companies ) got so large that a manager could take actions adversely affecting thousands of anonymous employees with impunity .
As managers were rewarded for these actions , others copied and amplified their actions....times 2.How about this...As people have become more productive , they do n't need to work the full eight hours of a day to complete what was 8 hours of work 10 years ago.Bernie Madoff was , by all accounts , a decent man.Actually , most accounts I have read is that he was an eccentric , ADD freak who pushed a lot of people around .
Ripping off strangers or family , I doubt it would make a bit off difference .
( Hint : He was moving money to people he trusted he could manipulate into moving it back to him while he was in jail , not because he did n't want to screw them .
) Poor example maybe , but I 'll concede " normal " people are less likely to rip off family .
Bernie - and a whole lot of other people - though is not normal .
... everyone in the organization knows everyone else well enough that no one can hide misbehavior.Or that they feel comfortable / open enough knowing that they can discuss the matter before acting unilaterally .
For example , leader makes decision I 'm not comfortable with...I go to leader and make my case .
Leader explains issues I was n't aware of or takes my advice and adopts my position.Basically , leaders have to be secure in themselves and be willing to elucidate their positions .
The current corporate environment does n't really facilitate this .
Indeed , the desperation most managers feel to maintain their positions makes it unlikely they will ever get to this point .
Younger people have less to lose and thus can afford to respond in a more flexible manner .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The other problem is that the work ethic has slipped off quite a bitOh...Please spare us the moral panic ....The work ethic has been slipping since WW2 ended.
Organizations (not just companies) got so large that a manager could take actions adversely affecting thousands of anonymous employees with impunity.
As managers  were rewarded for these actions, others copied and amplified their actions....times 2.How about this...As people have become more productive, they don't need to work the full eight hours of a day to complete what was 8 hours of work 10 years ago.Bernie Madoff was, by all accounts, a decent man.Actually, most accounts I have read is that he was an eccentric, ADD freak who pushed a lot of people around.
Ripping off strangers or family, I doubt it would make a bit off difference.
(Hint: He was moving money to people he trusted he could manipulate into moving it back to him while he was in jail, not because he didn't want to screw them.
)Poor example maybe, but I'll concede "normal" people are less likely to rip off family.
Bernie - and a whole lot of other people - though is not normal.
... everyone in the organization knows everyone else well enough that no one can hide misbehavior.Or that they feel comfortable / open enough knowing that they can discuss the matter before acting unilaterally.
For example, leader makes decision I'm not comfortable with...I go to leader and make my case.
Leader explains issues I wasn't aware of or takes my advice and adopts my position.Basically, leaders have to be secure in themselves and be willing to elucidate their positions.
The current corporate environment doesn't really facilitate this.
Indeed, the desperation most managers feel to maintain their positions makes it unlikely they will ever get to this point.
Younger people have less to lose and thus can afford to respond in a more flexible manner.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30672510</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>t33jster</author>
	<datestamp>1262805000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The guy even says they miss deadlines and the code they produce is crap.</p></div><p>

Frankly, I'm <b> <i>SHOCKED</i> </b> that nobody has suggested that this guy works for Microsoft.  I am reading<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. at work, right?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The guy even says they miss deadlines and the code they produce is crap .
Frankly , I 'm SHOCKED that nobody has suggested that this guy works for Microsoft .
I am reading / .
at work , right ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The guy even says they miss deadlines and the code they produce is crap.
Frankly, I'm  SHOCKED  that nobody has suggested that this guy works for Microsoft.
I am reading /.
at work, right?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670584</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>aggie\_knight</author>
	<datestamp>1262797560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As someone that has moved from software engineering out into management, I certainly understand your points and from the outside they make a lot of sense.  However, I disagree.  <br> <br>
As many in the thread have said, the majority of software engineering is contemplating a problem and coming up with workable solution.  I remember years ago when tasked with replacing a complex CORBA interface with web services, I spent 8 weeks planning, pondering, and scratching on ether-paper, and 4 on coding and unit test.  Because I had done all my planning and designing up front, the actual coding went quickly and I ran into almost no issues.  I was done well ahead of schedule and as of several years later when I left the firm, there had been no problems.  However, I bet that for those first eight weeks, I sure looked like I was doing jack.  <br> <br>
The challenge for most non-software engineers is that what SE's do is so different and unique.  We can understand what a mechanical engineer does because most of us have opened the hood of our car and looked at the complexities of the engine.  We can grasp at what nuclear engineers do because we've seen large cities and huge ships powered by their works, not to mention read about the probes we've sent to other planets powered by them.  We can comprehend what Industrial Engineers do because..uhh..well maybe nobody understands that (joking...joking...).
<br> <br>
Software Engineering is so foreign to what other individuals do that it is a mystery.  It is part logic and process modeling, part math, and often requires a firm understanding of science and physics.  Some tasks require an understanding of human psychology.  Coding is one of the steps int the software engineering process, not the only one.  It is unfortunate that it is also the only step people seem to attribute to the engineer.  Software Engineering is much closer to art than production line work sticking slot A into tab B.  And like artists, many of software engineerings practitioners tend to be a bit egotistical, anti-social and well..pricks.
<br> <br>
Having said that, if the OP's description is accurate, there is definitely something wrong in his new organization and I agree he should begin to look elsewhere.  Either his fellows are indeed lazy or management is setting unrealistic expectations.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone that has moved from software engineering out into management , I certainly understand your points and from the outside they make a lot of sense .
However , I disagree .
As many in the thread have said , the majority of software engineering is contemplating a problem and coming up with workable solution .
I remember years ago when tasked with replacing a complex CORBA interface with web services , I spent 8 weeks planning , pondering , and scratching on ether-paper , and 4 on coding and unit test .
Because I had done all my planning and designing up front , the actual coding went quickly and I ran into almost no issues .
I was done well ahead of schedule and as of several years later when I left the firm , there had been no problems .
However , I bet that for those first eight weeks , I sure looked like I was doing jack .
The challenge for most non-software engineers is that what SE 's do is so different and unique .
We can understand what a mechanical engineer does because most of us have opened the hood of our car and looked at the complexities of the engine .
We can grasp at what nuclear engineers do because we 've seen large cities and huge ships powered by their works , not to mention read about the probes we 've sent to other planets powered by them .
We can comprehend what Industrial Engineers do because..uhh..well maybe nobody understands that ( joking...joking... ) .
Software Engineering is so foreign to what other individuals do that it is a mystery .
It is part logic and process modeling , part math , and often requires a firm understanding of science and physics .
Some tasks require an understanding of human psychology .
Coding is one of the steps int the software engineering process , not the only one .
It is unfortunate that it is also the only step people seem to attribute to the engineer .
Software Engineering is much closer to art than production line work sticking slot A into tab B. And like artists , many of software engineerings practitioners tend to be a bit egotistical , anti-social and well..pricks .
Having said that , if the OP 's description is accurate , there is definitely something wrong in his new organization and I agree he should begin to look elsewhere .
Either his fellows are indeed lazy or management is setting unrealistic expectations .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone that has moved from software engineering out into management, I certainly understand your points and from the outside they make a lot of sense.
However, I disagree.
As many in the thread have said, the majority of software engineering is contemplating a problem and coming up with workable solution.
I remember years ago when tasked with replacing a complex CORBA interface with web services, I spent 8 weeks planning, pondering, and scratching on ether-paper, and 4 on coding and unit test.
Because I had done all my planning and designing up front, the actual coding went quickly and I ran into almost no issues.
I was done well ahead of schedule and as of several years later when I left the firm, there had been no problems.
However, I bet that for those first eight weeks, I sure looked like I was doing jack.
The challenge for most non-software engineers is that what SE's do is so different and unique.
We can understand what a mechanical engineer does because most of us have opened the hood of our car and looked at the complexities of the engine.
We can grasp at what nuclear engineers do because we've seen large cities and huge ships powered by their works, not to mention read about the probes we've sent to other planets powered by them.
We can comprehend what Industrial Engineers do because..uhh..well maybe nobody understands that (joking...joking...).
Software Engineering is so foreign to what other individuals do that it is a mystery.
It is part logic and process modeling, part math, and often requires a firm understanding of science and physics.
Some tasks require an understanding of human psychology.
Coding is one of the steps int the software engineering process, not the only one.
It is unfortunate that it is also the only step people seem to attribute to the engineer.
Software Engineering is much closer to art than production line work sticking slot A into tab B.  And like artists, many of software engineerings practitioners tend to be a bit egotistical, anti-social and well..pricks.
Having said that, if the OP's description is accurate, there is definitely something wrong in his new organization and I agree he should begin to look elsewhere.
Either his fellows are indeed lazy or management is setting unrealistic expectations.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668112</id>
	<title>Why are you asking us?</title>
	<author>Antique Geekmeister</author>
	<datestamp>1262784420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ask the people at your workplace. I keep an eye on various relevant technical and social issues with Slashdot, and it keeps me on my toes to chat with sharp people here who know about other fields. A certain amount of slack at work while my code is compiling or my brain is working on other fields seems harmless, and I normally put in plenty of after hours work to cover any missed worktime. Conversely, you may be right about people slacking off: it can be due to many reasons, such as genuine frustration at not being allowed to do anything useful or watching their good ideas being thrown out by an incompetent manager.</p><p>Also, IT work is often like firefighting. You spend a lot of time cooking meals and reading magazines and keeping yourself and your equipment fit, and then at disaster time you and your equipment are supposed to go all out with skills and \_plans\_ to fix things and recover data. That on-call time can be valuable, too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ask the people at your workplace .
I keep an eye on various relevant technical and social issues with Slashdot , and it keeps me on my toes to chat with sharp people here who know about other fields .
A certain amount of slack at work while my code is compiling or my brain is working on other fields seems harmless , and I normally put in plenty of after hours work to cover any missed worktime .
Conversely , you may be right about people slacking off : it can be due to many reasons , such as genuine frustration at not being allowed to do anything useful or watching their good ideas being thrown out by an incompetent manager.Also , IT work is often like firefighting .
You spend a lot of time cooking meals and reading magazines and keeping yourself and your equipment fit , and then at disaster time you and your equipment are supposed to go all out with skills and \ _plans \ _ to fix things and recover data .
That on-call time can be valuable , too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ask the people at your workplace.
I keep an eye on various relevant technical and social issues with Slashdot, and it keeps me on my toes to chat with sharp people here who know about other fields.
A certain amount of slack at work while my code is compiling or my brain is working on other fields seems harmless, and I normally put in plenty of after hours work to cover any missed worktime.
Conversely, you may be right about people slacking off: it can be due to many reasons, such as genuine frustration at not being allowed to do anything useful or watching their good ideas being thrown out by an incompetent manager.Also, IT work is often like firefighting.
You spend a lot of time cooking meals and reading magazines and keeping yourself and your equipment fit, and then at disaster time you and your equipment are supposed to go all out with skills and \_plans\_ to fix things and recover data.
That on-call time can be valuable, too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667558</id>
	<title>Another case of asking the wrong people.</title>
	<author>billsayswow</author>
	<datestamp>1262778300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I really don't get how it always ends up this way. Most jobs at IT firms are like this, and so long as a majority of the employees, and their supervisors, are barely out of college, then it is going to be idle chatter, Nerf gun fights, and decorating your workspace with 4chan memes and 'amusing' motivational posters, with work getting done in between. I worked in the administration division of a large software firm, and it boggled my mind that going through the more techie areas of the company was like a playground or a dorm room, but going through legal, accounting, marketing, et al., was like going through... a real workplace. It showed, too, in the reports I'd put together, the way general work ethic was. Of course, oddly enough, our foreign offices' tech people were entirely different. It's just the culture we live in. Then again, you're bringing this up with<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/., where most people are going to complain that the sofa in front of the Playstation in the lounge is starting to get uncomfortable...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I really do n't get how it always ends up this way .
Most jobs at IT firms are like this , and so long as a majority of the employees , and their supervisors , are barely out of college , then it is going to be idle chatter , Nerf gun fights , and decorating your workspace with 4chan memes and 'amusing ' motivational posters , with work getting done in between .
I worked in the administration division of a large software firm , and it boggled my mind that going through the more techie areas of the company was like a playground or a dorm room , but going through legal , accounting , marketing , et al. , was like going through... a real workplace .
It showed , too , in the reports I 'd put together , the way general work ethic was .
Of course , oddly enough , our foreign offices ' tech people were entirely different .
It 's just the culture we live in .
Then again , you 're bringing this up with /. , where most people are going to complain that the sofa in front of the Playstation in the lounge is starting to get uncomfortable.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I really don't get how it always ends up this way.
Most jobs at IT firms are like this, and so long as a majority of the employees, and their supervisors, are barely out of college, then it is going to be idle chatter, Nerf gun fights, and decorating your workspace with 4chan memes and 'amusing' motivational posters, with work getting done in between.
I worked in the administration division of a large software firm, and it boggled my mind that going through the more techie areas of the company was like a playground or a dorm room, but going through legal, accounting, marketing, et al., was like going through... a real workplace.
It showed, too, in the reports I'd put together, the way general work ethic was.
Of course, oddly enough, our foreign offices' tech people were entirely different.
It's just the culture we live in.
Then again, you're bringing this up with /., where most people are going to complain that the sofa in front of the Playstation in the lounge is starting to get uncomfortable...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670430</id>
	<title>Quit Now!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262797140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Flee before you become like them, soulless homunculi marking time until death calls.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Flee before you become like them , soulless homunculi marking time until death calls .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Flee before you become like them, soulless homunculi marking time until death calls.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668274</id>
	<title>Hang Gliding while being paid to write code... Yep</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262785860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I knew someone who was working for a big company doing some coding.  This person would show up for work on time, punch-in (or clock-in) to show that this person was there... THEN, would have the computer going, and on an occasion more than you would expect, would leave the building, get into the car, go home get into another car that had the hang glider on it, drive a couple of hours to a prime hang gliding spot, meet with friends, go soaring for much of the day, get back into the vehicle with hang glider on the top, drive home, get back into regular car, drive to work go in for  an hour or so, and then punch or clock out of work.  Putting in a full day at work.   Management at the company was so out of touch (had no clue what folks did in IT at all) that this was possible and this person was NEVER missed while not at work.  They NEVER missed this person at all.  OH - collected a fat check every week doing this.</p><p>So - this is a problem.  AND the problem is that people who are not geeks or IT folks have no clue what is going on in tech at all.   That is their problem!</p><p>The other problem is that the work ethic has slipped off quite a bit and due to this, others are being hired or work is outsourced to places (as management is concerned that deadlines are missed, and have meeting s about this, and find that maybe the work does get done at less cost if outsourced to a firm that does enforce or encourage a positive work ethic (and each employee feels involved in the positive direction of the company SO MUCH that they want to work harder).   So, the problem starts at the top... and then becomes a culture of non-workers if the proper attitude is not in place from the start.  If the DNA is wrong at the start, then the only thing to do to get productivity back is to relocate, rehire everyone, and start again from scratch.   OR just use Open Source GPL software where everyone is part of a larger group and is proud of their work (as it is eventually being judged by their peers).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I knew someone who was working for a big company doing some coding .
This person would show up for work on time , punch-in ( or clock-in ) to show that this person was there... THEN , would have the computer going , and on an occasion more than you would expect , would leave the building , get into the car , go home get into another car that had the hang glider on it , drive a couple of hours to a prime hang gliding spot , meet with friends , go soaring for much of the day , get back into the vehicle with hang glider on the top , drive home , get back into regular car , drive to work go in for an hour or so , and then punch or clock out of work .
Putting in a full day at work .
Management at the company was so out of touch ( had no clue what folks did in IT at all ) that this was possible and this person was NEVER missed while not at work .
They NEVER missed this person at all .
OH - collected a fat check every week doing this.So - this is a problem .
AND the problem is that people who are not geeks or IT folks have no clue what is going on in tech at all .
That is their problem ! The other problem is that the work ethic has slipped off quite a bit and due to this , others are being hired or work is outsourced to places ( as management is concerned that deadlines are missed , and have meeting s about this , and find that maybe the work does get done at less cost if outsourced to a firm that does enforce or encourage a positive work ethic ( and each employee feels involved in the positive direction of the company SO MUCH that they want to work harder ) .
So , the problem starts at the top... and then becomes a culture of non-workers if the proper attitude is not in place from the start .
If the DNA is wrong at the start , then the only thing to do to get productivity back is to relocate , rehire everyone , and start again from scratch .
OR just use Open Source GPL software where everyone is part of a larger group and is proud of their work ( as it is eventually being judged by their peers ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I knew someone who was working for a big company doing some coding.
This person would show up for work on time, punch-in (or clock-in) to show that this person was there... THEN, would have the computer going, and on an occasion more than you would expect, would leave the building, get into the car, go home get into another car that had the hang glider on it, drive a couple of hours to a prime hang gliding spot, meet with friends, go soaring for much of the day, get back into the vehicle with hang glider on the top, drive home, get back into regular car, drive to work go in for  an hour or so, and then punch or clock out of work.
Putting in a full day at work.
Management at the company was so out of touch (had no clue what folks did in IT at all) that this was possible and this person was NEVER missed while not at work.
They NEVER missed this person at all.
OH - collected a fat check every week doing this.So - this is a problem.
AND the problem is that people who are not geeks or IT folks have no clue what is going on in tech at all.
That is their problem!The other problem is that the work ethic has slipped off quite a bit and due to this, others are being hired or work is outsourced to places (as management is concerned that deadlines are missed, and have meeting s about this, and find that maybe the work does get done at less cost if outsourced to a firm that does enforce or encourage a positive work ethic (and each employee feels involved in the positive direction of the company SO MUCH that they want to work harder).
So, the problem starts at the top... and then becomes a culture of non-workers if the proper attitude is not in place from the start.
If the DNA is wrong at the start, then the only thing to do to get productivity back is to relocate, rehire everyone, and start again from scratch.
OR just use Open Source GPL software where everyone is part of a larger group and is proud of their work (as it is eventually being judged by their peers).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667330</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669078</id>
	<title>Get involved...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262791260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're new to the company and fresh from school, so expect to get a lot of grunt work.  Plenty of people can work 4 or 5 hours of an 8 hour day and be fine with it while other people actually believe the company pays them for 8 hours and not 5 hours of work.  Most developers I've worked with have been at one of two extremes: either they hack away for 8 to 10 hours a day with a couple of quick breaks for coffee, smokes, and lunch, or they slack for half the day and plug away the other half.  The quality of code isn't much different, but the volume is higher with the guy working longer shifts.</p><p>With that said, those guys that work half the day are the first people I go to for a question because I know they'll stop chatting about football to answer me and I'm very likely to get a correct answer.</p><p>My suggestion:  If you feel like they aren't working enough, step in and ask a work-related question, maybe to a problem you're trying to resolve.  Get them back into the work mindset and see how it goes.  You'll be showing respect, but also be intelligent about what you ask and be ready to debate it a little to show you're not completely ignorant of how the code works.  More likely, they will finish with you and return to their work rather than return to the conversation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're new to the company and fresh from school , so expect to get a lot of grunt work .
Plenty of people can work 4 or 5 hours of an 8 hour day and be fine with it while other people actually believe the company pays them for 8 hours and not 5 hours of work .
Most developers I 've worked with have been at one of two extremes : either they hack away for 8 to 10 hours a day with a couple of quick breaks for coffee , smokes , and lunch , or they slack for half the day and plug away the other half .
The quality of code is n't much different , but the volume is higher with the guy working longer shifts.With that said , those guys that work half the day are the first people I go to for a question because I know they 'll stop chatting about football to answer me and I 'm very likely to get a correct answer.My suggestion : If you feel like they are n't working enough , step in and ask a work-related question , maybe to a problem you 're trying to resolve .
Get them back into the work mindset and see how it goes .
You 'll be showing respect , but also be intelligent about what you ask and be ready to debate it a little to show you 're not completely ignorant of how the code works .
More likely , they will finish with you and return to their work rather than return to the conversation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're new to the company and fresh from school, so expect to get a lot of grunt work.
Plenty of people can work 4 or 5 hours of an 8 hour day and be fine with it while other people actually believe the company pays them for 8 hours and not 5 hours of work.
Most developers I've worked with have been at one of two extremes: either they hack away for 8 to 10 hours a day with a couple of quick breaks for coffee, smokes, and lunch, or they slack for half the day and plug away the other half.
The quality of code isn't much different, but the volume is higher with the guy working longer shifts.With that said, those guys that work half the day are the first people I go to for a question because I know they'll stop chatting about football to answer me and I'm very likely to get a correct answer.My suggestion:  If you feel like they aren't working enough, step in and ask a work-related question, maybe to a problem you're trying to resolve.
Get them back into the work mindset and see how it goes.
You'll be showing respect, but also be intelligent about what you ask and be ready to debate it a little to show you're not completely ignorant of how the code works.
More likely, they will finish with you and return to their work rather than return to the conversation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668762</id>
	<title>Having worked in the field for way too long...</title>
	<author>Mickey Jameson</author>
	<datestamp>1262789280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Occasional browsing is one thing, but when half of one's work day is related to doing nothing, then it becomes a problem.</p><p>I was responsible for a tri-branch office managing the network for about 800 desktops, 50 servers, and 300 employees on the clock around the clock. Nobody wanted to do what I did, so I had to do it by myself. Management wanted bandwidth reports. I gave it to them. Wanted email stats. Gave that to them. Over half the email was FW: FW: FW: FW: garbage, which I was instructed to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/dev/null. Done. Such sites like youporn.com were in the top site lists. They wanted it blocked. It was blocked.</p><p>Needless to say, people would do nothing but talk crap about me because I'm "the web nazi" or "internet nazi" and other such crap.</p><p>And having worked at such a company for over a decade, one day, out of the blue, the same management that told me what to block was the same management that said after XX years, if I didn't take a 75\% paycut, that I could take a hike.</p><p>I believe in working. If you're not working, you do not deserve to be paid.</p><p>And to this day, I still get daily status reports of all of the servers I once ran, nearly 3 years after the fact - because the guy they hired to change my passwords did only that, without checking on anything else.</p><p>I've never worked in IT since. There is no reward.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Occasional browsing is one thing , but when half of one 's work day is related to doing nothing , then it becomes a problem.I was responsible for a tri-branch office managing the network for about 800 desktops , 50 servers , and 300 employees on the clock around the clock .
Nobody wanted to do what I did , so I had to do it by myself .
Management wanted bandwidth reports .
I gave it to them .
Wanted email stats .
Gave that to them .
Over half the email was FW : FW : FW : FW : garbage , which I was instructed to /dev/null .
Done. Such sites like youporn.com were in the top site lists .
They wanted it blocked .
It was blocked.Needless to say , people would do nothing but talk crap about me because I 'm " the web nazi " or " internet nazi " and other such crap.And having worked at such a company for over a decade , one day , out of the blue , the same management that told me what to block was the same management that said after XX years , if I did n't take a 75 \ % paycut , that I could take a hike.I believe in working .
If you 're not working , you do not deserve to be paid.And to this day , I still get daily status reports of all of the servers I once ran , nearly 3 years after the fact - because the guy they hired to change my passwords did only that , without checking on anything else.I 've never worked in IT since .
There is no reward .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Occasional browsing is one thing, but when half of one's work day is related to doing nothing, then it becomes a problem.I was responsible for a tri-branch office managing the network for about 800 desktops, 50 servers, and 300 employees on the clock around the clock.
Nobody wanted to do what I did, so I had to do it by myself.
Management wanted bandwidth reports.
I gave it to them.
Wanted email stats.
Gave that to them.
Over half the email was FW: FW: FW: FW: garbage, which I was instructed to /dev/null.
Done. Such sites like youporn.com were in the top site lists.
They wanted it blocked.
It was blocked.Needless to say, people would do nothing but talk crap about me because I'm "the web nazi" or "internet nazi" and other such crap.And having worked at such a company for over a decade, one day, out of the blue, the same management that told me what to block was the same management that said after XX years, if I didn't take a 75\% paycut, that I could take a hike.I believe in working.
If you're not working, you do not deserve to be paid.And to this day, I still get daily status reports of all of the servers I once ran, nearly 3 years after the fact - because the guy they hired to change my passwords did only that, without checking on anything else.I've never worked in IT since.
There is no reward.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667744</id>
	<title>time management!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262780520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>50 minutes of work &amp; 10 minutes of rest, every hour of the working day. What i do in those 10 minutes is very much my own business. Being able to "chill out" for 10 minutes definitely boosts my productivity (especially towards the end of the day, or in fact night every once in a while). There were certainly exceptions to this, when I'm really concentrated on something and I did have cases where I literally worked non stop for 8, 12 and my own max record of ~30 hours (with small brakes to refill coffee &amp; snatch someones half eaten sandwich from the fridge<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:) ), but after this non stop I'm certainly expecting a chillout period which has to at least compensates to some extent for the stress I've taken. In any case I doubt you'd see anyone working their ass off after pulling a ton of overtime the day/night before.</p><p>That being said, i've came to such "schedule" after working for ~7 years for the same company in different roles, attempting to resign 4 or 5 times (convinced not to) and actually quitting &amp; coming back after a years break.</p><p>If you think that you can come to an 8 hour working shift and work non stop breaking for lunch only, I guaranty you that after a couple of years you will be a 110\% burnout and that definitely does no good neither to your own health nor does this benefit the company you work for. I mean regardless of how enthusiastic you are about your job, or how good you are at it or anything of this nature. Work stress is stress regardless of anything.</p><p>Everyone needs space &amp; time to "blow off some steam".</p><p>As far as people deliberately wasting time, and this affecting schedules, deadlines and quality of work - unless you are in the management/supervision, or want to pave the road into those area MIND YOUR OWN F***ING BUSINESS!</p><p>Last but not the least - work ethics &amp; business ethics are concepts belonging to a class room, ethics have no room in business. Business is about making money, everything else is PR BS.</p><p>PS It is only unethical if you get caught!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>50 minutes of work &amp; 10 minutes of rest , every hour of the working day .
What i do in those 10 minutes is very much my own business .
Being able to " chill out " for 10 minutes definitely boosts my productivity ( especially towards the end of the day , or in fact night every once in a while ) .
There were certainly exceptions to this , when I 'm really concentrated on something and I did have cases where I literally worked non stop for 8 , 12 and my own max record of ~ 30 hours ( with small brakes to refill coffee &amp; snatch someones half eaten sandwich from the fridge : ) ) , but after this non stop I 'm certainly expecting a chillout period which has to at least compensates to some extent for the stress I 've taken .
In any case I doubt you 'd see anyone working their ass off after pulling a ton of overtime the day/night before.That being said , i 've came to such " schedule " after working for ~ 7 years for the same company in different roles , attempting to resign 4 or 5 times ( convinced not to ) and actually quitting &amp; coming back after a years break.If you think that you can come to an 8 hour working shift and work non stop breaking for lunch only , I guaranty you that after a couple of years you will be a 110 \ % burnout and that definitely does no good neither to your own health nor does this benefit the company you work for .
I mean regardless of how enthusiastic you are about your job , or how good you are at it or anything of this nature .
Work stress is stress regardless of anything.Everyone needs space &amp; time to " blow off some steam " .As far as people deliberately wasting time , and this affecting schedules , deadlines and quality of work - unless you are in the management/supervision , or want to pave the road into those area MIND YOUR OWN F * * * ING BUSINESS ! Last but not the least - work ethics &amp; business ethics are concepts belonging to a class room , ethics have no room in business .
Business is about making money , everything else is PR BS.PS It is only unethical if you get caught !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>50 minutes of work &amp; 10 minutes of rest, every hour of the working day.
What i do in those 10 minutes is very much my own business.
Being able to "chill out" for 10 minutes definitely boosts my productivity (especially towards the end of the day, or in fact night every once in a while).
There were certainly exceptions to this, when I'm really concentrated on something and I did have cases where I literally worked non stop for 8, 12 and my own max record of ~30 hours (with small brakes to refill coffee &amp; snatch someones half eaten sandwich from the fridge :) ), but after this non stop I'm certainly expecting a chillout period which has to at least compensates to some extent for the stress I've taken.
In any case I doubt you'd see anyone working their ass off after pulling a ton of overtime the day/night before.That being said, i've came to such "schedule" after working for ~7 years for the same company in different roles, attempting to resign 4 or 5 times (convinced not to) and actually quitting &amp; coming back after a years break.If you think that you can come to an 8 hour working shift and work non stop breaking for lunch only, I guaranty you that after a couple of years you will be a 110\% burnout and that definitely does no good neither to your own health nor does this benefit the company you work for.
I mean regardless of how enthusiastic you are about your job, or how good you are at it or anything of this nature.
Work stress is stress regardless of anything.Everyone needs space &amp; time to "blow off some steam".As far as people deliberately wasting time, and this affecting schedules, deadlines and quality of work - unless you are in the management/supervision, or want to pave the road into those area MIND YOUR OWN F***ING BUSINESS!Last but not the least - work ethics &amp; business ethics are concepts belonging to a class room, ethics have no room in business.
Business is about making money, everything else is PR BS.PS It is only unethical if you get caught!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30671426</id>
	<title>Re:Peter.... how's it going?</title>
	<author>pwizard2</author>
	<datestamp>1262800740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Lumbergh could team up with Agent Smith.</p></div> </blockquote><p>Agent Lumbergh: "Mr Anderson...What's happening?"</p><p>That would be the stuff of nightmares... just imagine what it would be like if your boss at work could randomly possess anyone in the world and then come talk to you. You would never be able to get away.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Lumbergh could team up with Agent Smith .
Agent Lumbergh : " Mr Anderson...What 's happening ?
" That would be the stuff of nightmares... just imagine what it would be like if your boss at work could randomly possess anyone in the world and then come talk to you .
You would never be able to get away .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lumbergh could team up with Agent Smith.
Agent Lumbergh: "Mr Anderson...What's happening?
"That would be the stuff of nightmares... just imagine what it would be like if your boss at work could randomly possess anyone in the world and then come talk to you.
You would never be able to get away.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668160</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30674268</id>
	<title>Welcome to the real world</title>
	<author>sorin25</author>
	<datestamp>1262769360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I while back I was thinking about this, in terms of selling time<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. versus selling work. Some of the people I work seem to regard employment as selling time, they come to work, sit on their ass for 8 hours and expect to get payed<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. on the other hand, I usually get complaints because I finish what I have to do early and want to leave<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. Mostly this is the management fault, because they fail to recognize the difference between being there<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... versus working there.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I while back I was thinking about this , in terms of selling time .. versus selling work .
Some of the people I work seem to regard employment as selling time , they come to work , sit on their ass for 8 hours and expect to get payed .. on the other hand , I usually get complaints because I finish what I have to do early and want to leave .. Mostly this is the management fault , because they fail to recognize the difference between being there ... versus working there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I while back I was thinking about this, in terms of selling time .. versus selling work.
Some of the people I work seem to regard employment as selling time, they come to work, sit on their ass for 8 hours and expect to get payed .. on the other hand, I usually get complaints because I finish what I have to do early and want to leave .. Mostly this is the management fault, because they fail to recognize the difference between being there ... versus working there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668084</id>
	<title>Werd</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262784060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I knew a guy who barely came into the office at all... but he did a lot of the coding and they ended up letting him go because he wasn't in any of the meetings. So the SOCIAL GATHERING thing is seems to be more important than the code itself. I've also worked in areas where people were goofing off like 50\% of the day, and it was very hard to maintain focus in that atmosphere. These were guys getting paid over 70-120K a year! It was ridiculous when you go to the small business down the road to get some food and drinks, and the person there is working their best and doing their best to put on their best face, they put everyone in your office to severe shame with their superior work ethic for less than 60K. It was easier for me to work at home because the atmosphere actually made me suffer... so I would just code at home then the next day PRETEND to work in the office while I slyly pasted my code in that I did from home. I knew of other people doing the same thing. It's weird I tell you. They were even worried if you were getting valuable work done. Anyways, I figured out it is the way the software office corporate politics works in the US. They remind of those labor unions and the 'White Knights'.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I knew a guy who barely came into the office at all... but he did a lot of the coding and they ended up letting him go because he was n't in any of the meetings .
So the SOCIAL GATHERING thing is seems to be more important than the code itself .
I 've also worked in areas where people were goofing off like 50 \ % of the day , and it was very hard to maintain focus in that atmosphere .
These were guys getting paid over 70-120K a year !
It was ridiculous when you go to the small business down the road to get some food and drinks , and the person there is working their best and doing their best to put on their best face , they put everyone in your office to severe shame with their superior work ethic for less than 60K .
It was easier for me to work at home because the atmosphere actually made me suffer... so I would just code at home then the next day PRETEND to work in the office while I slyly pasted my code in that I did from home .
I knew of other people doing the same thing .
It 's weird I tell you .
They were even worried if you were getting valuable work done .
Anyways , I figured out it is the way the software office corporate politics works in the US .
They remind of those labor unions and the 'White Knights' .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I knew a guy who barely came into the office at all... but he did a lot of the coding and they ended up letting him go because he wasn't in any of the meetings.
So the SOCIAL GATHERING thing is seems to be more important than the code itself.
I've also worked in areas where people were goofing off like 50\% of the day, and it was very hard to maintain focus in that atmosphere.
These were guys getting paid over 70-120K a year!
It was ridiculous when you go to the small business down the road to get some food and drinks, and the person there is working their best and doing their best to put on their best face, they put everyone in your office to severe shame with their superior work ethic for less than 60K.
It was easier for me to work at home because the atmosphere actually made me suffer... so I would just code at home then the next day PRETEND to work in the office while I slyly pasted my code in that I did from home.
I knew of other people doing the same thing.
It's weird I tell you.
They were even worried if you were getting valuable work done.
Anyways, I figured out it is the way the software office corporate politics works in the US.
They remind of those labor unions and the 'White Knights'.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670090</id>
	<title>Burn rate</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262795820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Keep in mind, that some of these developers can outperform a newbie 100 fold.  They can probably code for 1 hour what you do in 8.  Hell even devs with similar experience have a 10-1 ratio when you include bugs and design clarity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Keep in mind , that some of these developers can outperform a newbie 100 fold .
They can probably code for 1 hour what you do in 8 .
Hell even devs with similar experience have a 10-1 ratio when you include bugs and design clarity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Keep in mind, that some of these developers can outperform a newbie 100 fold.
They can probably code for 1 hour what you do in 8.
Hell even devs with similar experience have a 10-1 ratio when you include bugs and design clarity.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669472</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262793180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How about legal documents? I had to fill out a mortgage application a few years ago, and there was a checkbox that had a checkmark filled in by mistake. One checkbox, that's all.</p><p>Could've gotten me thrown in prison or having a very long chat with some federal officials. It was the checkbox that says "Yes I'm a U.S. citizen", which I'm not. And when you're talking about moving around large sums of money, a year or two after 9/11, they take that kind of misstatement very seriously.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about legal documents ?
I had to fill out a mortgage application a few years ago , and there was a checkbox that had a checkmark filled in by mistake .
One checkbox , that 's all.Could 've gotten me thrown in prison or having a very long chat with some federal officials .
It was the checkbox that says " Yes I 'm a U.S. citizen " , which I 'm not .
And when you 're talking about moving around large sums of money , a year or two after 9/11 , they take that kind of misstatement very seriously .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about legal documents?
I had to fill out a mortgage application a few years ago, and there was a checkbox that had a checkmark filled in by mistake.
One checkbox, that's all.Could've gotten me thrown in prison or having a very long chat with some federal officials.
It was the checkbox that says "Yes I'm a U.S. citizen", which I'm not.
And when you're talking about moving around large sums of money, a year or two after 9/11, they take that kind of misstatement very seriously.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667980</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30672428</id>
	<title>Get used to it</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262804640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My advise is to get used to it. People are generally lazy and alot of them have this sense of entitlement where not working for 8 hours a day is ok. I was brought up on a farm where we routinely worked 10+ hours a day. When I became a programmer, coding for 8 hours a day was easy by comparison.</p><p>I understand the creative side of development and that some people here seem to suggest that not working enables them to be more creative. Personally I think this is BS. Talking about football is not a good way to generate ideas regarding how to implement a new framework.</p><p>Keep working hard. If the company does not recognize the effort you are putting in, find a new employer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My advise is to get used to it .
People are generally lazy and alot of them have this sense of entitlement where not working for 8 hours a day is ok. I was brought up on a farm where we routinely worked 10 + hours a day .
When I became a programmer , coding for 8 hours a day was easy by comparison.I understand the creative side of development and that some people here seem to suggest that not working enables them to be more creative .
Personally I think this is BS .
Talking about football is not a good way to generate ideas regarding how to implement a new framework.Keep working hard .
If the company does not recognize the effort you are putting in , find a new employer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My advise is to get used to it.
People are generally lazy and alot of them have this sense of entitlement where not working for 8 hours a day is ok. I was brought up on a farm where we routinely worked 10+ hours a day.
When I became a programmer, coding for 8 hours a day was easy by comparison.I understand the creative side of development and that some people here seem to suggest that not working enables them to be more creative.
Personally I think this is BS.
Talking about football is not a good way to generate ideas regarding how to implement a new framework.Keep working hard.
If the company does not recognize the effort you are putting in, find a new employer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668384</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>Nicolay77</author>
	<datestamp>1262786700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No. you sound like a f****ng basterd who read too many Taylorist ideas.</p><p>I don't miss headlines and my code is (somewhat) nice, with a couple of novel ideas I am really proud of. I worked too hard in the last three months and it really affected me. Too much stress, etc. I feel like I am burned out.</p><p>For the next deadline I negotiated my deadlines aggressively and now I'm working in a much nicer way. But I still feel I need some time to recover from the burnout.</p><p>The point that should be taken into account about the article is not what the developers seem to do or not to do. Its the missing deadlines. The bad code. Results and results only. Everything else is misleading.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No .
you sound like a f * * * * ng basterd who read too many Taylorist ideas.I do n't miss headlines and my code is ( somewhat ) nice , with a couple of novel ideas I am really proud of .
I worked too hard in the last three months and it really affected me .
Too much stress , etc .
I feel like I am burned out.For the next deadline I negotiated my deadlines aggressively and now I 'm working in a much nicer way .
But I still feel I need some time to recover from the burnout.The point that should be taken into account about the article is not what the developers seem to do or not to do .
Its the missing deadlines .
The bad code .
Results and results only .
Everything else is misleading .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No.
you sound like a f****ng basterd who read too many Taylorist ideas.I don't miss headlines and my code is (somewhat) nice, with a couple of novel ideas I am really proud of.
I worked too hard in the last three months and it really affected me.
Too much stress, etc.
I feel like I am burned out.For the next deadline I negotiated my deadlines aggressively and now I'm working in a much nicer way.
But I still feel I need some time to recover from the burnout.The point that should be taken into account about the article is not what the developers seem to do or not to do.
Its the missing deadlines.
The bad code.
Results and results only.
Everything else is misleading.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668408</id>
	<title>Better than an 'All work No play' environment</title>
	<author>samalex01</author>
	<datestamp>1262786880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've worked in offices were the comradery is great and everyone does spend an hour or two a day chatting, then I've worked in offices were you're sitting in a cube for 8-10 hours a day and you may go days without seeing the person sitting one cube away.  I'd MUCH rather have the first scenario because for me I need that interaction, and honestly I think people will have a more productive 6-7 hours when 1-2 hours a day is spent getting to know your coworkers than coding for 8-9 hours.  Our current office does a morning meeting each morning where we go over work related stuff and visit for about 30 minutes or so, but after that I rarely see anyone else in the office unless we leave for lunch or end of day at the same time.
<br> <br>
My thought is that you make your coworkers as good friends as you can because you'll often see them more than your own family, which means having a management staff that hires as much on personality than skills.  Unfortunately it only takes one turd in the punch bowl to ruin the whole group.
<br> <br>
So my suggestion is don't be a stick in the mud or prude...  You'll never agree with your coworkers 100\% of the time, but working in technology you instantly have a few things in common -- hopefully.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've worked in offices were the comradery is great and everyone does spend an hour or two a day chatting , then I 've worked in offices were you 're sitting in a cube for 8-10 hours a day and you may go days without seeing the person sitting one cube away .
I 'd MUCH rather have the first scenario because for me I need that interaction , and honestly I think people will have a more productive 6-7 hours when 1-2 hours a day is spent getting to know your coworkers than coding for 8-9 hours .
Our current office does a morning meeting each morning where we go over work related stuff and visit for about 30 minutes or so , but after that I rarely see anyone else in the office unless we leave for lunch or end of day at the same time .
My thought is that you make your coworkers as good friends as you can because you 'll often see them more than your own family , which means having a management staff that hires as much on personality than skills .
Unfortunately it only takes one turd in the punch bowl to ruin the whole group .
So my suggestion is do n't be a stick in the mud or prude... You 'll never agree with your coworkers 100 \ % of the time , but working in technology you instantly have a few things in common -- hopefully .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've worked in offices were the comradery is great and everyone does spend an hour or two a day chatting, then I've worked in offices were you're sitting in a cube for 8-10 hours a day and you may go days without seeing the person sitting one cube away.
I'd MUCH rather have the first scenario because for me I need that interaction, and honestly I think people will have a more productive 6-7 hours when 1-2 hours a day is spent getting to know your coworkers than coding for 8-9 hours.
Our current office does a morning meeting each morning where we go over work related stuff and visit for about 30 minutes or so, but after that I rarely see anyone else in the office unless we leave for lunch or end of day at the same time.
My thought is that you make your coworkers as good friends as you can because you'll often see them more than your own family, which means having a management staff that hires as much on personality than skills.
Unfortunately it only takes one turd in the punch bowl to ruin the whole group.
So my suggestion is don't be a stick in the mud or prude...  You'll never agree with your coworkers 100\% of the time, but working in technology you instantly have a few things in common -- hopefully.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669178</id>
	<title>it the they pretend to pay us and we pretend ...</title>
	<author>RobertLTux</author>
	<datestamp>1262791800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Since it can be proven that They are not holding up their part of the bargain then We don't have to hold up our part either.</p><p>When it becomes fashionable for Management to give sane direction and actually pay the workers properly then yes more work will get done.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Since it can be proven that They are not holding up their part of the bargain then We do n't have to hold up our part either.When it becomes fashionable for Management to give sane direction and actually pay the workers properly then yes more work will get done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Since it can be proven that They are not holding up their part of the bargain then We don't have to hold up our part either.When it becomes fashionable for Management to give sane direction and actually pay the workers properly then yes more work will get done.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669682</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>andy1307</author>
	<datestamp>1262794260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You guys are a bunch of lazy assholes.</p></div><p>We don't have time to read the summary. We're at work, you insensitive clod.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You guys are a bunch of lazy assholes.We do n't have time to read the summary .
We 're at work , you insensitive clod .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You guys are a bunch of lazy assholes.We don't have time to read the summary.
We're at work, you insensitive clod.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668474</id>
	<title>One of my first jobs</title>
	<author>SlappyBastard</author>
	<datestamp>1262787540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We were openly encouraged by the boss -- a lesser geek himself -- to use company time and equipment to screw off.  To his perspective, if it encouraged loyalty and relaxation while dealing with tough projects, so be it.</p><p>I've seen some very tightly wound geeks in my time.  Especially among the talented ones.  I think if a business has to err on this issue, it's probably wiser to err on the side of relaxation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We were openly encouraged by the boss -- a lesser geek himself -- to use company time and equipment to screw off .
To his perspective , if it encouraged loyalty and relaxation while dealing with tough projects , so be it.I 've seen some very tightly wound geeks in my time .
Especially among the talented ones .
I think if a business has to err on this issue , it 's probably wiser to err on the side of relaxation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We were openly encouraged by the boss -- a lesser geek himself -- to use company time and equipment to screw off.
To his perspective, if it encouraged loyalty and relaxation while dealing with tough projects, so be it.I've seen some very tightly wound geeks in my time.
Especially among the talented ones.
I think if a business has to err on this issue, it's probably wiser to err on the side of relaxation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668460</id>
	<title>Advice: Mind Your Own Business</title>
	<author>s31523</author>
	<datestamp>1262787420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>So the perception is that your coworkers waste "hours" of time.  Well, that is your perception, but may not be reality.  Do you follow them home?  Do you know when they get in or leave?  How about when that fire hits and they solve the problem no one else could solve.  Are there tasks that should take hours to complete but these people get them done in less time? See, a person's value can not be measured by how much time he/she sits in front of their desk pounding keys.  It is best to not worry about how much time they are "wasting" and mind your own business.  Be grateful that you have a job and the environment is laid back.  Worry about getting your projects done and making sure you know who is responsible for what.  The real slacker will miss deadlines, produce crap work, and be slick enough to shift blame or avoid responsibility. Just make sure you have clear communication with people so they know you are counting on them and that your superiors know what you were supposed to do and what they were supposed to do.  On team efforts where someone else is supposed to handle something and they are dropping the ball you can send a polite email offering assistance or asking about status if it is something that hinders you.  Make sure you 'cc the appropriate people.  Good luck.</htmltext>
<tokenext>So the perception is that your coworkers waste " hours " of time .
Well , that is your perception , but may not be reality .
Do you follow them home ?
Do you know when they get in or leave ?
How about when that fire hits and they solve the problem no one else could solve .
Are there tasks that should take hours to complete but these people get them done in less time ?
See , a person 's value can not be measured by how much time he/she sits in front of their desk pounding keys .
It is best to not worry about how much time they are " wasting " and mind your own business .
Be grateful that you have a job and the environment is laid back .
Worry about getting your projects done and making sure you know who is responsible for what .
The real slacker will miss deadlines , produce crap work , and be slick enough to shift blame or avoid responsibility .
Just make sure you have clear communication with people so they know you are counting on them and that your superiors know what you were supposed to do and what they were supposed to do .
On team efforts where someone else is supposed to handle something and they are dropping the ball you can send a polite email offering assistance or asking about status if it is something that hinders you .
Make sure you 'cc the appropriate people .
Good luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So the perception is that your coworkers waste "hours" of time.
Well, that is your perception, but may not be reality.
Do you follow them home?
Do you know when they get in or leave?
How about when that fire hits and they solve the problem no one else could solve.
Are there tasks that should take hours to complete but these people get them done in less time?
See, a person's value can not be measured by how much time he/she sits in front of their desk pounding keys.
It is best to not worry about how much time they are "wasting" and mind your own business.
Be grateful that you have a job and the environment is laid back.
Worry about getting your projects done and making sure you know who is responsible for what.
The real slacker will miss deadlines, produce crap work, and be slick enough to shift blame or avoid responsibility.
Just make sure you have clear communication with people so they know you are counting on them and that your superiors know what you were supposed to do and what they were supposed to do.
On team efforts where someone else is supposed to handle something and they are dropping the ball you can send a polite email offering assistance or asking about status if it is something that hinders you.
Make sure you 'cc the appropriate people.
Good luck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668802</id>
	<title>It sounds like you are wasting your time there</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262789580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Of course everyone has to make occasional phone calls, and a little web browsing eg while waiting for a long build, and you might spend 10 minutes chatting during the day - but the description indicates much more general slackness than this. I've worked for over 30 years in various companies in England doing hardware and software design and I have never come across this behaviour except in a very few individuals. I guess most people have a respect for whoever is paying them! I would get out if you can. The job can't be much fun if people around you aren't focused on the job. I'm rather astonished that there are people defending this behaviour.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course everyone has to make occasional phone calls , and a little web browsing eg while waiting for a long build , and you might spend 10 minutes chatting during the day - but the description indicates much more general slackness than this .
I 've worked for over 30 years in various companies in England doing hardware and software design and I have never come across this behaviour except in a very few individuals .
I guess most people have a respect for whoever is paying them !
I would get out if you can .
The job ca n't be much fun if people around you are n't focused on the job .
I 'm rather astonished that there are people defending this behaviour .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course everyone has to make occasional phone calls, and a little web browsing eg while waiting for a long build, and you might spend 10 minutes chatting during the day - but the description indicates much more general slackness than this.
I've worked for over 30 years in various companies in England doing hardware and software design and I have never come across this behaviour except in a very few individuals.
I guess most people have a respect for whoever is paying them!
I would get out if you can.
The job can't be much fun if people around you aren't focused on the job.
I'm rather astonished that there are people defending this behaviour.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667778</id>
	<title>Focus on your responsibilities, and your self</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262781000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a federal employee for over 10 years I have seen it all. Trust me<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:). Just make sure you bring up your end and people should do right by you. Dont worry about other people's bad habits and dont go over the edge to impress your employer or burn your self out. Set a pace, be reliable and try not to judge unless its your responsibility. Be helpful but dont hurt yourself. Stay sharp, dont stay in one place too long, always have more than one way out. If you can manage to be a positive influence with in your work center and still do right by your self you are moving in the right direction. Lead by example, try not to criticize and alienate.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a federal employee for over 10 years I have seen it all .
Trust me : ) .
Just make sure you bring up your end and people should do right by you .
Dont worry about other people 's bad habits and dont go over the edge to impress your employer or burn your self out .
Set a pace , be reliable and try not to judge unless its your responsibility .
Be helpful but dont hurt yourself .
Stay sharp , dont stay in one place too long , always have more than one way out .
If you can manage to be a positive influence with in your work center and still do right by your self you are moving in the right direction .
Lead by example , try not to criticize and alienate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a federal employee for over 10 years I have seen it all.
Trust me :).
Just make sure you bring up your end and people should do right by you.
Dont worry about other people's bad habits and dont go over the edge to impress your employer or burn your self out.
Set a pace, be reliable and try not to judge unless its your responsibility.
Be helpful but dont hurt yourself.
Stay sharp, dont stay in one place too long, always have more than one way out.
If you can manage to be a positive influence with in your work center and still do right by your self you are moving in the right direction.
Lead by example, try not to criticize and alienate.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670326</id>
	<title>shut yer mouth</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262796660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>and pay your dues like everyone else.  It is your job as the FNG to pick up my slack.  I earned that right with all the late night, weekend, and during my kids birthday roll outs so some a-hole in management could get all the credit for a successful project.  If you open your mouth again we'll make sure you remain FNG status for a very long time.</p><p>regards<br>your peers</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and pay your dues like everyone else .
It is your job as the FNG to pick up my slack .
I earned that right with all the late night , weekend , and during my kids birthday roll outs so some a-hole in management could get all the credit for a successful project .
If you open your mouth again we 'll make sure you remain FNG status for a very long time.regardsyour peers</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and pay your dues like everyone else.
It is your job as the FNG to pick up my slack.
I earned that right with all the late night, weekend, and during my kids birthday roll outs so some a-hole in management could get all the credit for a successful project.
If you open your mouth again we'll make sure you remain FNG status for a very long time.regardsyour peers</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668988</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>aurispector</author>
	<datestamp>1262790780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There you go again putting coders on a pedestal again.  I'm a dentist: if something isn't done right I get a call about it at 9 o'clock at night &amp; I might even get sued.  I have to manage people's emotions and experiences while doing tiny, intricate and detailed work on teeth in a mouth that's moving and complaining the entire time and in the process I get exposed to a variety of body fluids that may or may not contain pathogens.  The entire procedure has to be prepared ahead of time and every step has to be completed properly before the next step can begin - and if the procedure is not completed it's illegal for me to bill insurance until it is - we don't get paid for incomplete work.  There are often several patients seated simultaneously so there are several different processes to be managed at once.  Every single one of those patients expects and deserves my undivided attention.  Doing it right the first time so you don't waste time doing it over is a guiding principle.</p><p>I don't think what I do is unique - it's similar to a head chef in a restaurant managing his line chefs. Coders need to drop the "attitude" and recognize that their efficiency contributes directly to the bottom line.  If your organization can't get it done there's one over in India or China willing to step up.   Enjoy your future unemployment!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There you go again putting coders on a pedestal again .
I 'm a dentist : if something is n't done right I get a call about it at 9 o'clock at night &amp; I might even get sued .
I have to manage people 's emotions and experiences while doing tiny , intricate and detailed work on teeth in a mouth that 's moving and complaining the entire time and in the process I get exposed to a variety of body fluids that may or may not contain pathogens .
The entire procedure has to be prepared ahead of time and every step has to be completed properly before the next step can begin - and if the procedure is not completed it 's illegal for me to bill insurance until it is - we do n't get paid for incomplete work .
There are often several patients seated simultaneously so there are several different processes to be managed at once .
Every single one of those patients expects and deserves my undivided attention .
Doing it right the first time so you do n't waste time doing it over is a guiding principle.I do n't think what I do is unique - it 's similar to a head chef in a restaurant managing his line chefs .
Coders need to drop the " attitude " and recognize that their efficiency contributes directly to the bottom line .
If your organization ca n't get it done there 's one over in India or China willing to step up .
Enjoy your future unemployment !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There you go again putting coders on a pedestal again.
I'm a dentist: if something isn't done right I get a call about it at 9 o'clock at night &amp; I might even get sued.
I have to manage people's emotions and experiences while doing tiny, intricate and detailed work on teeth in a mouth that's moving and complaining the entire time and in the process I get exposed to a variety of body fluids that may or may not contain pathogens.
The entire procedure has to be prepared ahead of time and every step has to be completed properly before the next step can begin - and if the procedure is not completed it's illegal for me to bill insurance until it is - we don't get paid for incomplete work.
There are often several patients seated simultaneously so there are several different processes to be managed at once.
Every single one of those patients expects and deserves my undivided attention.
Doing it right the first time so you don't waste time doing it over is a guiding principle.I don't think what I do is unique - it's similar to a head chef in a restaurant managing his line chefs.
Coders need to drop the "attitude" and recognize that their efficiency contributes directly to the bottom line.
If your organization can't get it done there's one over in India or China willing to step up.
Enjoy your future unemployment!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667980</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667764</id>
	<title>Don't worry about it</title>
	<author>Inda</author>
	<datestamp>1262780820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Something I learned a long, long time ago was don't worry about your peers. Just do your work and don't worry about anyone else. Don't go crying to your boss, he'll already know the score.<br><br>Turn up on time, do your work, go home, get paid. You'll be happier with this attitude.<br><br>You probably already know that life is not fair and some people seem to get all the breaks. Life is not fair. Take it on the chin. Play the cards you have in your hand.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Something I learned a long , long time ago was do n't worry about your peers .
Just do your work and do n't worry about anyone else .
Do n't go crying to your boss , he 'll already know the score.Turn up on time , do your work , go home , get paid .
You 'll be happier with this attitude.You probably already know that life is not fair and some people seem to get all the breaks .
Life is not fair .
Take it on the chin .
Play the cards you have in your hand .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Something I learned a long, long time ago was don't worry about your peers.
Just do your work and don't worry about anyone else.
Don't go crying to your boss, he'll already know the score.Turn up on time, do your work, go home, get paid.
You'll be happier with this attitude.You probably already know that life is not fair and some people seem to get all the breaks.
Life is not fair.
Take it on the chin.
Play the cards you have in your hand.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669188</id>
	<title>Pay by the hour vs milestone</title>
	<author>omkhar</author>
	<datestamp>1262791860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you're paying them by the milestone - great. If you're paying them by the hour, start cracking down.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 're paying them by the milestone - great .
If you 're paying them by the hour , start cracking down .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you're paying them by the milestone - great.
If you're paying them by the hour, start cracking down.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30671804</id>
	<title>Don't mistake activity/attendance for productivity</title>
	<author>JustNiz</author>
	<datestamp>1262802300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't mistake activity or attendance for productivity.<br>Most new grads think they already know it all from what they learnt at school, but trust me your real learning experience is only just beginning.<br>Even if you, the new grad, regularly work 80 hour weeks and the other guys still come in late and surf the web a lot, the chances are that they are actually still way more productive and valuable to the company than you.<br>The reason is they have enough experience and specific product knowledge to be able to work much more effectively and deal with much bigger issues than a fresh grad who doesn't know anything about working in the real world, and hasn't yet had enough time to get intimately familiar with your companies products, technologies, target markets and customers.<br>It sounds to me like they also already know another thing that you will inevitably come to realise: you can't win a marathon by trying to sprint the whole way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't mistake activity or attendance for productivity.Most new grads think they already know it all from what they learnt at school , but trust me your real learning experience is only just beginning.Even if you , the new grad , regularly work 80 hour weeks and the other guys still come in late and surf the web a lot , the chances are that they are actually still way more productive and valuable to the company than you.The reason is they have enough experience and specific product knowledge to be able to work much more effectively and deal with much bigger issues than a fresh grad who does n't know anything about working in the real world , and has n't yet had enough time to get intimately familiar with your companies products , technologies , target markets and customers.It sounds to me like they also already know another thing that you will inevitably come to realise : you ca n't win a marathon by trying to sprint the whole way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't mistake activity or attendance for productivity.Most new grads think they already know it all from what they learnt at school, but trust me your real learning experience is only just beginning.Even if you, the new grad, regularly work 80 hour weeks and the other guys still come in late and surf the web a lot, the chances are that they are actually still way more productive and valuable to the company than you.The reason is they have enough experience and specific product knowledge to be able to work much more effectively and deal with much bigger issues than a fresh grad who doesn't know anything about working in the real world, and hasn't yet had enough time to get intimately familiar with your companies products, technologies, target markets and customers.It sounds to me like they also already know another thing that you will inevitably come to realise: you can't win a marathon by trying to sprint the whole way.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668826</id>
	<title>I remember having the same thought</title>
	<author>Vermyndax</author>
	<datestamp>1262789760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I jumped from the broadcast industry to the software industry once and had the same thought... I was shocked at how much time was spent in hallway discussions and whatnot.</p><p>Then I realized most of the discussions from the developers were centered around the code itself and creative approaches to solving problems.  The sales and management folks were the ones walking around and talking about football.  I decided this was part of the job.  But you're right, there is a lot of time wasted in hallway discussions.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...and so, like they said earlier... enjoy your Sundays working...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I jumped from the broadcast industry to the software industry once and had the same thought... I was shocked at how much time was spent in hallway discussions and whatnot.Then I realized most of the discussions from the developers were centered around the code itself and creative approaches to solving problems .
The sales and management folks were the ones walking around and talking about football .
I decided this was part of the job .
But you 're right , there is a lot of time wasted in hallway discussions .
...and so , like they said earlier... enjoy your Sundays working.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I jumped from the broadcast industry to the software industry once and had the same thought... I was shocked at how much time was spent in hallway discussions and whatnot.Then I realized most of the discussions from the developers were centered around the code itself and creative approaches to solving problems.
The sales and management folks were the ones walking around and talking about football.
I decided this was part of the job.
But you're right, there is a lot of time wasted in hallway discussions.
...and so, like they said earlier... enjoy your Sundays working...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667572</id>
	<title>Dont judge too quickly</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262778360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've been on both sides of this, as a developer and as a manager: first off, its wholly impractical and counter-productive to try and control every thing staff do. The more controls you impose, the more time you spend policing the rules - and all that does is make for a miserable unproductive environment. One of the first rules of a "happy" productive team, a happy engineering team, is mutual trust between those doing the work and those responsible for ensuring it gets done - its a quid pro quo. And at the end of the day, in my experience, good engineers WANT to work, want to solve problems, want to design, they/we get a kick from it, job satisfaction if you will, pride in a job well done. And every single engineer needs "think" time - chaining people to a rigid set of work methods really doesnt work (unless you are working on a production line).
THAT said, it is certainly true that some offices/teams are poor, thats the nature of things - and if productivity is low and people are just taking the p*** then sooner or later the manager gets replaced and the situation is rectified or the good engineers move on.  My teams get total freedom, the senior designers have the flex to work from home too. But i know exactly who is and who is not productive - and I get rid of engineers who dont pull their weight - its that simple (and very rare). And that never causes an issue with the others, and nor did it when I was a "grunt" - in fact, you dont want idiots in around you who dont do any work.
Gauging productivity is the managers job and responsibility - they should be able to do it, they should have a range of choices/skills/options that allow them to improve it when needed. As a new person with little industry experience your assessment may be premature - I would say dont jump to instant conclusions or be too judgemental, it may well be you've landed in a poor office - and in due course you will either understand that to be the case and move on to a better place, or you will adjust. Bottom line, if you're unhappy and remain unhappy, find somewhere else.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been on both sides of this , as a developer and as a manager : first off , its wholly impractical and counter-productive to try and control every thing staff do .
The more controls you impose , the more time you spend policing the rules - and all that does is make for a miserable unproductive environment .
One of the first rules of a " happy " productive team , a happy engineering team , is mutual trust between those doing the work and those responsible for ensuring it gets done - its a quid pro quo .
And at the end of the day , in my experience , good engineers WANT to work , want to solve problems , want to design , they/we get a kick from it , job satisfaction if you will , pride in a job well done .
And every single engineer needs " think " time - chaining people to a rigid set of work methods really doesnt work ( unless you are working on a production line ) .
THAT said , it is certainly true that some offices/teams are poor , thats the nature of things - and if productivity is low and people are just taking the p * * * then sooner or later the manager gets replaced and the situation is rectified or the good engineers move on .
My teams get total freedom , the senior designers have the flex to work from home too .
But i know exactly who is and who is not productive - and I get rid of engineers who dont pull their weight - its that simple ( and very rare ) .
And that never causes an issue with the others , and nor did it when I was a " grunt " - in fact , you dont want idiots in around you who dont do any work .
Gauging productivity is the managers job and responsibility - they should be able to do it , they should have a range of choices/skills/options that allow them to improve it when needed .
As a new person with little industry experience your assessment may be premature - I would say dont jump to instant conclusions or be too judgemental , it may well be you 've landed in a poor office - and in due course you will either understand that to be the case and move on to a better place , or you will adjust .
Bottom line , if you 're unhappy and remain unhappy , find somewhere else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been on both sides of this, as a developer and as a manager: first off, its wholly impractical and counter-productive to try and control every thing staff do.
The more controls you impose, the more time you spend policing the rules - and all that does is make for a miserable unproductive environment.
One of the first rules of a "happy" productive team, a happy engineering team, is mutual trust between those doing the work and those responsible for ensuring it gets done - its a quid pro quo.
And at the end of the day, in my experience, good engineers WANT to work, want to solve problems, want to design, they/we get a kick from it, job satisfaction if you will, pride in a job well done.
And every single engineer needs "think" time - chaining people to a rigid set of work methods really doesnt work (unless you are working on a production line).
THAT said, it is certainly true that some offices/teams are poor, thats the nature of things - and if productivity is low and people are just taking the p*** then sooner or later the manager gets replaced and the situation is rectified or the good engineers move on.
My teams get total freedom, the senior designers have the flex to work from home too.
But i know exactly who is and who is not productive - and I get rid of engineers who dont pull their weight - its that simple (and very rare).
And that never causes an issue with the others, and nor did it when I was a "grunt" - in fact, you dont want idiots in around you who dont do any work.
Gauging productivity is the managers job and responsibility - they should be able to do it, they should have a range of choices/skills/options that allow them to improve it when needed.
As a new person with little industry experience your assessment may be premature - I would say dont jump to instant conclusions or be too judgemental, it may well be you've landed in a poor office - and in due course you will either understand that to be the case and move on to a better place, or you will adjust.
Bottom line, if you're unhappy and remain unhappy, find somewhere else.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30671532</id>
	<title>Take it from a Server Engineer...</title>
	<author>Tomsk70</author>
	<datestamp>1262801100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They're not being paid for the amount of work they do -.they're being paid for their *experience*.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They 're not being paid for the amount of work they do -.they 're being paid for their * experience * .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They're not being paid for the amount of work they do -.they're being paid for their *experience*.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30672094</id>
	<title>Re:Hang Gliding while being paid to write code...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262803320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Out of touch management can be a real problem. Take my job (and you will see why I post anonymously)</p><p>We are all salary but asked to fill out a timesheet every week for time justification (almost like billing but more "justifying the budget you give us every year"). In theory they go over this timesheet every week, and use it to determine who has free time for more projects etc.</p><p>We were also told... this MUST equal 40 hours each week at a minimum.</p><p>Of course, our boss can't even see our sheet, its only seen by people above him. So... if we had a light workload... we wouldn't dare report less than 40 hours... as we have been told we will get in trouble, as will our boss. So we all inflate the time sheets to a full 40... which makes us look busy....so they wont approve more projects.... so we have less to do... so we inflate time sheets more..... so they wont approve more projects....</p><p>Of course, nobody wants to point this out, because it means admitting that you inflate your time sheet. However nearly everyone does it, because, we have been told we have to. In fact, when it has come up in small venue conversations, even the managers throw up their arms and say "look this comes from people above me".</p><p>I occasionally liken it a king letting the messenger into the throne room, putting a sword to his throat, and asking for the good news. It may get him a lot of good news, but its not going to help him make good decisions.</p><p>Crazy BS is all it is.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Out of touch management can be a real problem .
Take my job ( and you will see why I post anonymously ) We are all salary but asked to fill out a timesheet every week for time justification ( almost like billing but more " justifying the budget you give us every year " ) .
In theory they go over this timesheet every week , and use it to determine who has free time for more projects etc.We were also told... this MUST equal 40 hours each week at a minimum.Of course , our boss ca n't even see our sheet , its only seen by people above him .
So... if we had a light workload... we would n't dare report less than 40 hours... as we have been told we will get in trouble , as will our boss .
So we all inflate the time sheets to a full 40... which makes us look busy....so they wont approve more projects.... so we have less to do... so we inflate time sheets more..... so they wont approve more projects....Of course , nobody wants to point this out , because it means admitting that you inflate your time sheet .
However nearly everyone does it , because , we have been told we have to .
In fact , when it has come up in small venue conversations , even the managers throw up their arms and say " look this comes from people above me " .I occasionally liken it a king letting the messenger into the throne room , putting a sword to his throat , and asking for the good news .
It may get him a lot of good news , but its not going to help him make good decisions.Crazy BS is all it is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Out of touch management can be a real problem.
Take my job (and you will see why I post anonymously)We are all salary but asked to fill out a timesheet every week for time justification (almost like billing but more "justifying the budget you give us every year").
In theory they go over this timesheet every week, and use it to determine who has free time for more projects etc.We were also told... this MUST equal 40 hours each week at a minimum.Of course, our boss can't even see our sheet, its only seen by people above him.
So... if we had a light workload... we wouldn't dare report less than 40 hours... as we have been told we will get in trouble, as will our boss.
So we all inflate the time sheets to a full 40... which makes us look busy....so they wont approve more projects.... so we have less to do... so we inflate time sheets more..... so they wont approve more projects....Of course, nobody wants to point this out, because it means admitting that you inflate your time sheet.
However nearly everyone does it, because, we have been told we have to.
In fact, when it has come up in small venue conversations, even the managers throw up their arms and say "look this comes from people above me".I occasionally liken it a king letting the messenger into the throne room, putting a sword to his throat, and asking for the good news.
It may get him a lot of good news, but its not going to help him make good decisions.Crazy BS is all it is.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30672742</id>
	<title>This guy needs to meet..</title>
	<author>bwcbwc</author>
	<datestamp>1262805960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/odds/bofh/" title="theregister.co.uk">... the BOFH</a> [theregister.co.uk]</p><p>Then he'll REALLY understand how IT works.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... the BOFH [ theregister.co.uk ] Then he 'll REALLY understand how IT works .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... the BOFH [theregister.co.uk]Then he'll REALLY understand how IT works.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669420</id>
	<title>Bad management via promotion?</title>
	<author>Above</author>
	<datestamp>1262792880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've seen quite a few places with this problem, and they all have one thing in common.  They have promoted {coders, help desk folks, sysadmins} to be managers.  In most cases these folks have no management training of any kind, and the company offers them no management support of any kind.  Many times they don't even want to manage people, they went for the promotion as it was the only way to get a larger paycheck.</p><p>Management, at a high level, is simple.  Set clear achievable objectives, get your team the resources they need to achieve those objections from other parts of the company, and set reasonable, but aggressive deadlines and have there be some reward for making them and consequence for missing them.</p><p>Without some training in project planning and people motivation setting objectives is actually quite hard.  Indeed, one of the largest problems is managers set objectives that just don't make any sense to anyone, and so they don't work towards them.  This is an area where real training is required, I believe everyone promoted to be a manager should be required to take a 5 day "management bootcamp" before they can start the job.</p><p>Getting resources from the rest of the company is interpersonal skills.   You have to interact with other folks and figure out how to get what you need from them.  For people who've worked the last 3-5 years head down in whatever they are doing, and are often thought of as socially awkward this is a very hard transition.  Geeks simply aren't good at figuring out that dropping off a tin of cookies in finance will get your PO's out the door quicker.</p><p>And lastly, most new managers, regardless of where they come from, have major problems with rewarding people and disciplining people.  They simply don't want to get involved in conflict, so they avoid it.  Engineers quickly figure out they can get away with anything, because there is no consequence to not doing your job, and so they start to test how far they can go.  Quickly the manager is being walked all over.  When I've talked to the new managers they are always like "what am I supposed to do, fire them, I can't do that."  It's another area where a management class could help.  At the next team meeting give the plum assignment to the guy who worked hard, and single out the guy who goofed off the most with "Bob, you could have been doing this but you're not finished with your last project yet."  Nine times out of ten Bob will work twice as hard next time.  (And if he doesn't, you have deeper issues, and really need professional management training).</p><p>The fact that you've noticed the problems so quickly as a junior guy tells me that this particular place has these problems bad.  Probably multiple levels of managers who don't want to be managers, have no training, and no one above them supporting them.  There's very little you can do to fix this, and if you're already writing to slashdot about it the situation will probably drive you crazy.  The only productive advice in that situation is to find a new job, ASAP, and take this one has a learning experience.  You now know some of the things to look for at your next employer before you take the job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've seen quite a few places with this problem , and they all have one thing in common .
They have promoted { coders , help desk folks , sysadmins } to be managers .
In most cases these folks have no management training of any kind , and the company offers them no management support of any kind .
Many times they do n't even want to manage people , they went for the promotion as it was the only way to get a larger paycheck.Management , at a high level , is simple .
Set clear achievable objectives , get your team the resources they need to achieve those objections from other parts of the company , and set reasonable , but aggressive deadlines and have there be some reward for making them and consequence for missing them.Without some training in project planning and people motivation setting objectives is actually quite hard .
Indeed , one of the largest problems is managers set objectives that just do n't make any sense to anyone , and so they do n't work towards them .
This is an area where real training is required , I believe everyone promoted to be a manager should be required to take a 5 day " management bootcamp " before they can start the job.Getting resources from the rest of the company is interpersonal skills .
You have to interact with other folks and figure out how to get what you need from them .
For people who 've worked the last 3-5 years head down in whatever they are doing , and are often thought of as socially awkward this is a very hard transition .
Geeks simply are n't good at figuring out that dropping off a tin of cookies in finance will get your PO 's out the door quicker.And lastly , most new managers , regardless of where they come from , have major problems with rewarding people and disciplining people .
They simply do n't want to get involved in conflict , so they avoid it .
Engineers quickly figure out they can get away with anything , because there is no consequence to not doing your job , and so they start to test how far they can go .
Quickly the manager is being walked all over .
When I 've talked to the new managers they are always like " what am I supposed to do , fire them , I ca n't do that .
" It 's another area where a management class could help .
At the next team meeting give the plum assignment to the guy who worked hard , and single out the guy who goofed off the most with " Bob , you could have been doing this but you 're not finished with your last project yet .
" Nine times out of ten Bob will work twice as hard next time .
( And if he does n't , you have deeper issues , and really need professional management training ) .The fact that you 've noticed the problems so quickly as a junior guy tells me that this particular place has these problems bad .
Probably multiple levels of managers who do n't want to be managers , have no training , and no one above them supporting them .
There 's very little you can do to fix this , and if you 're already writing to slashdot about it the situation will probably drive you crazy .
The only productive advice in that situation is to find a new job , ASAP , and take this one has a learning experience .
You now know some of the things to look for at your next employer before you take the job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've seen quite a few places with this problem, and they all have one thing in common.
They have promoted {coders, help desk folks, sysadmins} to be managers.
In most cases these folks have no management training of any kind, and the company offers them no management support of any kind.
Many times they don't even want to manage people, they went for the promotion as it was the only way to get a larger paycheck.Management, at a high level, is simple.
Set clear achievable objectives, get your team the resources they need to achieve those objections from other parts of the company, and set reasonable, but aggressive deadlines and have there be some reward for making them and consequence for missing them.Without some training in project planning and people motivation setting objectives is actually quite hard.
Indeed, one of the largest problems is managers set objectives that just don't make any sense to anyone, and so they don't work towards them.
This is an area where real training is required, I believe everyone promoted to be a manager should be required to take a 5 day "management bootcamp" before they can start the job.Getting resources from the rest of the company is interpersonal skills.
You have to interact with other folks and figure out how to get what you need from them.
For people who've worked the last 3-5 years head down in whatever they are doing, and are often thought of as socially awkward this is a very hard transition.
Geeks simply aren't good at figuring out that dropping off a tin of cookies in finance will get your PO's out the door quicker.And lastly, most new managers, regardless of where they come from, have major problems with rewarding people and disciplining people.
They simply don't want to get involved in conflict, so they avoid it.
Engineers quickly figure out they can get away with anything, because there is no consequence to not doing your job, and so they start to test how far they can go.
Quickly the manager is being walked all over.
When I've talked to the new managers they are always like "what am I supposed to do, fire them, I can't do that.
"  It's another area where a management class could help.
At the next team meeting give the plum assignment to the guy who worked hard, and single out the guy who goofed off the most with "Bob, you could have been doing this but you're not finished with your last project yet.
"  Nine times out of ten Bob will work twice as hard next time.
(And if he doesn't, you have deeper issues, and really need professional management training).The fact that you've noticed the problems so quickly as a junior guy tells me that this particular place has these problems bad.
Probably multiple levels of managers who don't want to be managers, have no training, and no one above them supporting them.
There's very little you can do to fix this, and if you're already writing to slashdot about it the situation will probably drive you crazy.
The only productive advice in that situation is to find a new job, ASAP, and take this one has a learning experience.
You now know some of the things to look for at your next employer before you take the job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30679876</id>
	<title>qwe</title>
	<author>blue-slonopotam</author>
	<datestamp>1262896200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It happens to old companies. Over time, a company accumulates a lot of people, who can't leave for a variety of reasons. They don't want to work either.
You don't have to do anything with that. Bankruptcy will take care of things.
If it does not do it quick enough, leave the company. This attitude is contagious.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It happens to old companies .
Over time , a company accumulates a lot of people , who ca n't leave for a variety of reasons .
They do n't want to work either .
You do n't have to do anything with that .
Bankruptcy will take care of things .
If it does not do it quick enough , leave the company .
This attitude is contagious .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It happens to old companies.
Over time, a company accumulates a lot of people, who can't leave for a variety of reasons.
They don't want to work either.
You don't have to do anything with that.
Bankruptcy will take care of things.
If it does not do it quick enough, leave the company.
This attitude is contagious.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30672698</id>
	<title>Method Acting and IT</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262805840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Advice from a 20+ year veteran of IT who retired at 45.</p><p>Study method acting as it will serve you far better in the current IT work culture than any tech related degree.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Advice from a 20 + year veteran of IT who retired at 45.Study method acting as it will serve you far better in the current IT work culture than any tech related degree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Advice from a 20+ year veteran of IT who retired at 45.Study method acting as it will serve you far better in the current IT work culture than any tech related degree.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30675672</id>
	<title>Not paid for number of hours spent typing</title>
	<author>iceaxe</author>
	<datestamp>1262775900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>OK, I didn't read all of the responses, so this opinion will inevitably be redundant, there are many like it, but this one is mine.</p><p>I am a software developer.  I am paid a salary to solve problems and create software.  I am not paid a salary to spend X number of hours per day typing code.  If I meet or exceed the requirements of my projects, I am golden.  If I screw up the projects because I didn't work hard, I am crap.</p><p>Some days I work like a fiend, like a bloodhound on the scent.  Those days I look up from my computer and say, "oh, hell, when did the sun go down?  My wife is gonna kill me..."</p><p>Some days I twiddle my thumbs waiting for the pointy haired ones to decide which direction I should go. (Guess which sort of day leaves me reading<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.)</p><p>Some days I spend walking around outside the office building with problems and potential solutions chasing themselves around my psyche.</p><p>Never do I spend a day screwing off doing nothing while a project goes down the tubes, provided there is something for me to do about it.</p><p>I don't know what the situation is with your teammates.  If the projects are failing and they aren't pulling their load, then in time either they will shape up or or they will be gone.  (Perhaps taking the company down with them.... but that's another story.)  Meanwhile, you do the best you know how, and don't spend too much time worrying about what others are doing.  It will all change soon, anyway.  Nature of the business.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>OK , I did n't read all of the responses , so this opinion will inevitably be redundant , there are many like it , but this one is mine.I am a software developer .
I am paid a salary to solve problems and create software .
I am not paid a salary to spend X number of hours per day typing code .
If I meet or exceed the requirements of my projects , I am golden .
If I screw up the projects because I did n't work hard , I am crap.Some days I work like a fiend , like a bloodhound on the scent .
Those days I look up from my computer and say , " oh , hell , when did the sun go down ?
My wife is gon na kill me... " Some days I twiddle my thumbs waiting for the pointy haired ones to decide which direction I should go .
( Guess which sort of day leaves me reading / .
) Some days I spend walking around outside the office building with problems and potential solutions chasing themselves around my psyche.Never do I spend a day screwing off doing nothing while a project goes down the tubes , provided there is something for me to do about it.I do n't know what the situation is with your teammates .
If the projects are failing and they are n't pulling their load , then in time either they will shape up or or they will be gone .
( Perhaps taking the company down with them.... but that 's another story .
) Meanwhile , you do the best you know how , and do n't spend too much time worrying about what others are doing .
It will all change soon , anyway .
Nature of the business .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>OK, I didn't read all of the responses, so this opinion will inevitably be redundant, there are many like it, but this one is mine.I am a software developer.
I am paid a salary to solve problems and create software.
I am not paid a salary to spend X number of hours per day typing code.
If I meet or exceed the requirements of my projects, I am golden.
If I screw up the projects because I didn't work hard, I am crap.Some days I work like a fiend, like a bloodhound on the scent.
Those days I look up from my computer and say, "oh, hell, when did the sun go down?
My wife is gonna kill me..."Some days I twiddle my thumbs waiting for the pointy haired ones to decide which direction I should go.
(Guess which sort of day leaves me reading /.
)Some days I spend walking around outside the office building with problems and potential solutions chasing themselves around my psyche.Never do I spend a day screwing off doing nothing while a project goes down the tubes, provided there is something for me to do about it.I don't know what the situation is with your teammates.
If the projects are failing and they aren't pulling their load, then in time either they will shape up or or they will be gone.
(Perhaps taking the company down with them.... but that's another story.
)  Meanwhile, you do the best you know how, and don't spend too much time worrying about what others are doing.
It will all change soon, anyway.
Nature of the business.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670640</id>
	<title>Simple</title>
	<author>S-4'N3</author>
	<datestamp>1262797740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>The problem here isn't that the coders are spending  alot of time slacking off, talking about football, or browsing the web. The problem is that their output is of poor quality and consistently late. <br> <br>
If the code was high quality and delivered on time, than the apparent slacking behaviour could go on indefinitely unnoticed. Or who knows, perhaps even noticed. But when somebody in upper management walks through and questions the slacking, the direct manager would be in a position to say "the code is good and is delivered on time." Ask the same question now, and the direct manager would have no defense.<br> <br>

Situations like this can not go on indefinitely. The quality of work may improve (unlikely) and this will no longer be a problem. Management may lay down the law and put a stop to the slacking (somewhat likely). Your customers may get fed up with a poor quality product (quite likely) and take their business elsewhere putting you and your team out of work. In either case, don't think that nobody will notice your effort. If you have a strong work ethic, stick true to it. If and when the axe falls, you might be spared. And even if your not spared, some day you might wind up working for one of the slackers you were working with and that work ethic of yours will likely be the reason they remembered you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem here is n't that the coders are spending alot of time slacking off , talking about football , or browsing the web .
The problem is that their output is of poor quality and consistently late .
If the code was high quality and delivered on time , than the apparent slacking behaviour could go on indefinitely unnoticed .
Or who knows , perhaps even noticed .
But when somebody in upper management walks through and questions the slacking , the direct manager would be in a position to say " the code is good and is delivered on time .
" Ask the same question now , and the direct manager would have no defense .
Situations like this can not go on indefinitely .
The quality of work may improve ( unlikely ) and this will no longer be a problem .
Management may lay down the law and put a stop to the slacking ( somewhat likely ) .
Your customers may get fed up with a poor quality product ( quite likely ) and take their business elsewhere putting you and your team out of work .
In either case , do n't think that nobody will notice your effort .
If you have a strong work ethic , stick true to it .
If and when the axe falls , you might be spared .
And even if your not spared , some day you might wind up working for one of the slackers you were working with and that work ethic of yours will likely be the reason they remembered you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem here isn't that the coders are spending  alot of time slacking off, talking about football, or browsing the web.
The problem is that their output is of poor quality and consistently late.
If the code was high quality and delivered on time, than the apparent slacking behaviour could go on indefinitely unnoticed.
Or who knows, perhaps even noticed.
But when somebody in upper management walks through and questions the slacking, the direct manager would be in a position to say "the code is good and is delivered on time.
" Ask the same question now, and the direct manager would have no defense.
Situations like this can not go on indefinitely.
The quality of work may improve (unlikely) and this will no longer be a problem.
Management may lay down the law and put a stop to the slacking (somewhat likely).
Your customers may get fed up with a poor quality product (quite likely) and take their business elsewhere putting you and your team out of work.
In either case, don't think that nobody will notice your effort.
If you have a strong work ethic, stick true to it.
If and when the axe falls, you might be spared.
And even if your not spared, some day you might wind up working for one of the slackers you were working with and that work ethic of yours will likely be the reason they remembered you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668514</id>
	<title>Same Experience</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262787840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I had the same experience when I graduated.  I had the perception that work was supposed to be 8h of work and nothing else.  There are some jobs like that but not as many as you think.  Does it bother you that these people aren't working 8 hours a day or that they aren't contributing as much as you to the projects?  If they are getting their work done don't worry about it.  I've noticed that the people that worry about how much time others are spending working generally spend A LOT of their own time not working.   There was one guy that had a spreadsheet they he kept track of what time other co workers showed up at work, he wasn't a manager.    Someone finally sat outside his cube with a note pad to keep track of how much time the guy was spending on his spreadsheet.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I had the same experience when I graduated .
I had the perception that work was supposed to be 8h of work and nothing else .
There are some jobs like that but not as many as you think .
Does it bother you that these people are n't working 8 hours a day or that they are n't contributing as much as you to the projects ?
If they are getting their work done do n't worry about it .
I 've noticed that the people that worry about how much time others are spending working generally spend A LOT of their own time not working .
There was one guy that had a spreadsheet they he kept track of what time other co workers showed up at work , he was n't a manager .
Someone finally sat outside his cube with a note pad to keep track of how much time the guy was spending on his spreadsheet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had the same experience when I graduated.
I had the perception that work was supposed to be 8h of work and nothing else.
There are some jobs like that but not as many as you think.
Does it bother you that these people aren't working 8 hours a day or that they aren't contributing as much as you to the projects?
If they are getting their work done don't worry about it.
I've noticed that the people that worry about how much time others are spending working generally spend A LOT of their own time not working.
There was one guy that had a spreadsheet they he kept track of what time other co workers showed up at work, he wasn't a manager.
Someone finally sat outside his cube with a note pad to keep track of how much time the guy was spending on his spreadsheet.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30685240</id>
	<title>Re:Take it from an old timer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262891220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I second this sentiment with all my heart. I used to give a damn, make sure everything was done right and documented, and stay after hours without charging overtime to finish everything up, but since my company doesn't care about me - they can go screw themselves when they suffer a breach with any reputation losses streaming from it - after half a decade of being unappreciated, I just work hard enough to make sure my ass is covered and they can't blame me for it when it happens. Companies only care about IT when something breaks (and even then they only care to place the blame), it's no wonder IT worker job satisfaction is at 10 year all time low <a href="http://it.slashdot.org/story/10/01/07/0428245" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">http://it.slashdot.org/story/10/01/07/0428245</a> [slashdot.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>I second this sentiment with all my heart .
I used to give a damn , make sure everything was done right and documented , and stay after hours without charging overtime to finish everything up , but since my company does n't care about me - they can go screw themselves when they suffer a breach with any reputation losses streaming from it - after half a decade of being unappreciated , I just work hard enough to make sure my ass is covered and they ca n't blame me for it when it happens .
Companies only care about IT when something breaks ( and even then they only care to place the blame ) , it 's no wonder IT worker job satisfaction is at 10 year all time low http : //it.slashdot.org/story/10/01/07/0428245 [ slashdot.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I second this sentiment with all my heart.
I used to give a damn, make sure everything was done right and documented, and stay after hours without charging overtime to finish everything up, but since my company doesn't care about me - they can go screw themselves when they suffer a breach with any reputation losses streaming from it - after half a decade of being unappreciated, I just work hard enough to make sure my ass is covered and they can't blame me for it when it happens.
Companies only care about IT when something breaks (and even then they only care to place the blame), it's no wonder IT worker job satisfaction is at 10 year all time low http://it.slashdot.org/story/10/01/07/0428245 [slashdot.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669492</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668730</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>Brad Eleven</author>
	<datestamp>1262789040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes, of course! The new guy, straight from school, irked about having to work late and on weekends, is the very model of a modern major code reviewer. How could I have missed this?
<p>
Your use of the derisive "coders" suggests that you, too, might have an axe to grind. Pray fete us with more of your nuggets of wisdom.
</p><p>
Could it be that the anonymous poster's colleagues aren't simply coding? What is coding, anyway? Is it simply translating some superior's proven-correct pseudocode into some pedestrian HLL just to the point of correct compilation, then handing it off to someone else for linking? Or could this neophyte have used a term which means many things to many people?
</p><p>
Congratulations on your juggling and the high standards (and taxation on your physical and mental selves, hat trick!) to which you are held. Would that all of us could wear your mantle, but, clearly, you are the only one who can do so. Forge on, and please, file more quality reports for our continued edification!
</p><p>
There simply aren't enough details to analyse the whelp's complaint. Is the software being written for a customer, or for internal use? Is it new development, enhancement of an existing suite, or is it maintenance? On which platforms does the software run? What's the environment like? Compensation?
</p><p>
Maybe--and I'm just spitballing, here--maybe the "grunt work" to which the novice refers is part of the training required to fully understand what's going on. Or--and I can't warrant this, as it's just now come to me--maybe the kid isn't even a developer and doesn't understand all of the intricacies (or unique work arrangements, i.e., working on projects while not in office) involved.
</p><p>
Mayhap you can spare a few of your own cycles to address the pup's concerns. How is s/he to deal with such an environment, populated with layabouts and ne'er-do-wells, ignorant to the economic (and other serious global) crises and ethical pressures which are clearly vexing the eager abecedarian?
</p><p>
Kid, if you're reading this, dig in a little deeper, and talk to your boss (not Slashdot) about your concerns. And read yourself some Fred Brooks (spoiler: There is no Man Month). Man up, buckle down and pay attention instead of looking for things to criticise because--as aurispector so ably points out--you don't work in a vacuum.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , of course !
The new guy , straight from school , irked about having to work late and on weekends , is the very model of a modern major code reviewer .
How could I have missed this ?
Your use of the derisive " coders " suggests that you , too , might have an axe to grind .
Pray fete us with more of your nuggets of wisdom .
Could it be that the anonymous poster 's colleagues are n't simply coding ?
What is coding , anyway ?
Is it simply translating some superior 's proven-correct pseudocode into some pedestrian HLL just to the point of correct compilation , then handing it off to someone else for linking ?
Or could this neophyte have used a term which means many things to many people ?
Congratulations on your juggling and the high standards ( and taxation on your physical and mental selves , hat trick !
) to which you are held .
Would that all of us could wear your mantle , but , clearly , you are the only one who can do so .
Forge on , and please , file more quality reports for our continued edification !
There simply are n't enough details to analyse the whelp 's complaint .
Is the software being written for a customer , or for internal use ?
Is it new development , enhancement of an existing suite , or is it maintenance ?
On which platforms does the software run ?
What 's the environment like ?
Compensation ? Maybe--and I 'm just spitballing , here--maybe the " grunt work " to which the novice refers is part of the training required to fully understand what 's going on .
Or--and I ca n't warrant this , as it 's just now come to me--maybe the kid is n't even a developer and does n't understand all of the intricacies ( or unique work arrangements , i.e. , working on projects while not in office ) involved .
Mayhap you can spare a few of your own cycles to address the pup 's concerns .
How is s/he to deal with such an environment , populated with layabouts and ne'er-do-wells , ignorant to the economic ( and other serious global ) crises and ethical pressures which are clearly vexing the eager abecedarian ?
Kid , if you 're reading this , dig in a little deeper , and talk to your boss ( not Slashdot ) about your concerns .
And read yourself some Fred Brooks ( spoiler : There is no Man Month ) .
Man up , buckle down and pay attention instead of looking for things to criticise because--as aurispector so ably points out--you do n't work in a vacuum .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, of course!
The new guy, straight from school, irked about having to work late and on weekends, is the very model of a modern major code reviewer.
How could I have missed this?
Your use of the derisive "coders" suggests that you, too, might have an axe to grind.
Pray fete us with more of your nuggets of wisdom.
Could it be that the anonymous poster's colleagues aren't simply coding?
What is coding, anyway?
Is it simply translating some superior's proven-correct pseudocode into some pedestrian HLL just to the point of correct compilation, then handing it off to someone else for linking?
Or could this neophyte have used a term which means many things to many people?
Congratulations on your juggling and the high standards (and taxation on your physical and mental selves, hat trick!
) to which you are held.
Would that all of us could wear your mantle, but, clearly, you are the only one who can do so.
Forge on, and please, file more quality reports for our continued edification!
There simply aren't enough details to analyse the whelp's complaint.
Is the software being written for a customer, or for internal use?
Is it new development, enhancement of an existing suite, or is it maintenance?
On which platforms does the software run?
What's the environment like?
Compensation?

Maybe--and I'm just spitballing, here--maybe the "grunt work" to which the novice refers is part of the training required to fully understand what's going on.
Or--and I can't warrant this, as it's just now come to me--maybe the kid isn't even a developer and doesn't understand all of the intricacies (or unique work arrangements, i.e., working on projects while not in office) involved.
Mayhap you can spare a few of your own cycles to address the pup's concerns.
How is s/he to deal with such an environment, populated with layabouts and ne'er-do-wells, ignorant to the economic (and other serious global) crises and ethical pressures which are clearly vexing the eager abecedarian?
Kid, if you're reading this, dig in a little deeper, and talk to your boss (not Slashdot) about your concerns.
And read yourself some Fred Brooks (spoiler: There is no Man Month).
Man up, buckle down and pay attention instead of looking for things to criticise because--as aurispector so ably points out--you don't work in a vacuum.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667888</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262782140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>IT people have to shift gears when interacting with the rest of the office.</p><p>You have no idea how it distracts me to talk somebody through a problem over the phone when I have to talk non-nerd to a clueless user.</p><p>"First, click the blue E, then go to the address bar and type in h-t-t-p, colon (the two dots-one over the other), slash, slash (and that's the one from the lower left to the upper right, yes, the one next to the slash) w-w-w-period, etc."  Yes, you must tell them when to space between words and usually when you ask them questions, they'll pretend that they have things under control.  "I've got to download a disk to play this game" "Do you mean an ISO image?" "No, a disk" "You can't download a physical disk.  You probably mean an install file or a disk image that will need to be burned to a CD." "I don't know what that is but I've got instructions at home"</p><p>You just have to walk away.</p><p>Now, there are work ethic problems.  Football fans usually are not just restoring equilibrium.  Most males who would rather be social climbing than following orders pick subjects like that to project their dominance in the pack while avoiding the image of bullying in the office.  Most know when to turn it off but bad office environments allow those types to get cliquish to the point where they can't communicate without regular sports breaks.  Your typical sales rep. comes into the office with a researched history of last nights sports events.</p><p>IMO, IT should have nothing to do with sports fans.  They eventually become office gnomes who flush their entire IT education in favor of office politics.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>IT people have to shift gears when interacting with the rest of the office.You have no idea how it distracts me to talk somebody through a problem over the phone when I have to talk non-nerd to a clueless user .
" First , click the blue E , then go to the address bar and type in h-t-t-p , colon ( the two dots-one over the other ) , slash , slash ( and that 's the one from the lower left to the upper right , yes , the one next to the slash ) w-w-w-period , etc .
" Yes , you must tell them when to space between words and usually when you ask them questions , they 'll pretend that they have things under control .
" I 've got to download a disk to play this game " " Do you mean an ISO image ?
" " No , a disk " " You ca n't download a physical disk .
You probably mean an install file or a disk image that will need to be burned to a CD .
" " I do n't know what that is but I 've got instructions at home " You just have to walk away.Now , there are work ethic problems .
Football fans usually are not just restoring equilibrium .
Most males who would rather be social climbing than following orders pick subjects like that to project their dominance in the pack while avoiding the image of bullying in the office .
Most know when to turn it off but bad office environments allow those types to get cliquish to the point where they ca n't communicate without regular sports breaks .
Your typical sales rep. comes into the office with a researched history of last nights sports events.IMO , IT should have nothing to do with sports fans .
They eventually become office gnomes who flush their entire IT education in favor of office politics .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IT people have to shift gears when interacting with the rest of the office.You have no idea how it distracts me to talk somebody through a problem over the phone when I have to talk non-nerd to a clueless user.
"First, click the blue E, then go to the address bar and type in h-t-t-p, colon (the two dots-one over the other), slash, slash (and that's the one from the lower left to the upper right, yes, the one next to the slash) w-w-w-period, etc.
"  Yes, you must tell them when to space between words and usually when you ask them questions, they'll pretend that they have things under control.
"I've got to download a disk to play this game" "Do you mean an ISO image?
" "No, a disk" "You can't download a physical disk.
You probably mean an install file or a disk image that will need to be burned to a CD.
" "I don't know what that is but I've got instructions at home"You just have to walk away.Now, there are work ethic problems.
Football fans usually are not just restoring equilibrium.
Most males who would rather be social climbing than following orders pick subjects like that to project their dominance in the pack while avoiding the image of bullying in the office.
Most know when to turn it off but bad office environments allow those types to get cliquish to the point where they can't communicate without regular sports breaks.
Your typical sales rep. comes into the office with a researched history of last nights sports events.IMO, IT should have nothing to do with sports fans.
They eventually become office gnomes who flush their entire IT education in favor of office politics.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667874</id>
	<title>What methods?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262781960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Find the weakest one and start openly making sarcastic comments about how little work they do. Corporate America is all about competition and ass-kissing so you are completely entitled to shit on these people. From what you describe, sounds like fish in a barrel. Just fire away.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Find the weakest one and start openly making sarcastic comments about how little work they do .
Corporate America is all about competition and ass-kissing so you are completely entitled to shit on these people .
From what you describe , sounds like fish in a barrel .
Just fire away .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Find the weakest one and start openly making sarcastic comments about how little work they do.
Corporate America is all about competition and ass-kissing so you are completely entitled to shit on these people.
From what you describe, sounds like fish in a barrel.
Just fire away.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668066</id>
	<title>James Taggart would be proud</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262783880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>[shrug] Who is John Gault?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>[ shrug ] Who is John Gault ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>[shrug] Who is John Gault?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30681990</id>
	<title>Re:People aren't robots</title>
	<author>Evil Poot Cat</author>
	<datestamp>1262877780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work. Everybody works hard. There's nothing special about coding.  My workday include tasks that are both physically and mentally taxing, I often juggle several tasks at once and am held to a very high standard of quality. Man up, buckle down and produce because you don't work in a vacuum.</p></div><p>That's a good question; IMO, the problem relates to learning curves.  Since we're talking generics now, let's use yourself as the metric for this discussion:  Which platforms do you program (or have programmed in the past), what purpose does/did your software serve, and how did you feel about the resulting products?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work .
Everybody works hard .
There 's nothing special about coding .
My workday include tasks that are both physically and mentally taxing , I often juggle several tasks at once and am held to a very high standard of quality .
Man up , buckle down and produce because you do n't work in a vacuum.That 's a good question ; IMO , the problem relates to learning curves .
Since we 're talking generics now , let 's use yourself as the metric for this discussion : Which platforms do you program ( or have programmed in the past ) , what purpose does/did your software serve , and how did you feel about the resulting products ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is it that coders typically seem to have enormous egos when it comes to their work.
Everybody works hard.
There's nothing special about coding.
My workday include tasks that are both physically and mentally taxing, I often juggle several tasks at once and am held to a very high standard of quality.
Man up, buckle down and produce because you don't work in a vacuum.That's a good question; IMO, the problem relates to learning curves.
Since we're talking generics now, let's use yourself as the metric for this discussion:  Which platforms do you program (or have programmed in the past), what purpose does/did your software serve, and how did you feel about the resulting products?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30679800</id>
	<title>Re:All too common</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262895120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lets not get too on our high horse.</p><p>I have also seen where laziness is rewarded, but how about where hard work is punished?</p><p>I want you to imagine a place... Lets call it stupid world. I don't have to imagine, I work there right now.</p><p>If you do the work that they tell you to do. You spend most of the day on facebook for lack of anything to keep busy with. At reviews, you are told you are kicking ass. You get raises when there is money. Management mostly ignores you as you are quiet and don't make them do work either.</p><p>If you raise issues to the attention of management... like about work we should do, or how to make improvements. They will, at best, drag it out for two years. Possibly just kill it for lack of benefit for our "limited resources".</p><p>Of course... resources are only limited because everyone has been told they, and their boss will be in big trouble if they report less than 40 hours on their time sheet. So managers say "you must report 40 hours". So everyone is 100\% busy.... so there are no resources..... so you have no projects... so you have nothing to do.</p><p>Lets not forget... management are clueless but like to mix their fingers into technical decisions. The ONLY saving grace is that there is so much going on, that they are too busy to pay attention to most things, so all the demotivated slackers that they have trained can get some peace and quiet.</p><p>Seriously... if one or two guys are goofing off for a living, it might be their bad. If a whole department does it, I guarantee the problem is a little further up hill.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lets not get too on our high horse.I have also seen where laziness is rewarded , but how about where hard work is punished ? I want you to imagine a place... Lets call it stupid world .
I do n't have to imagine , I work there right now.If you do the work that they tell you to do .
You spend most of the day on facebook for lack of anything to keep busy with .
At reviews , you are told you are kicking ass .
You get raises when there is money .
Management mostly ignores you as you are quiet and do n't make them do work either.If you raise issues to the attention of management... like about work we should do , or how to make improvements .
They will , at best , drag it out for two years .
Possibly just kill it for lack of benefit for our " limited resources " .Of course... resources are only limited because everyone has been told they , and their boss will be in big trouble if they report less than 40 hours on their time sheet .
So managers say " you must report 40 hours " .
So everyone is 100 \ % busy.... so there are no resources..... so you have no projects... so you have nothing to do.Lets not forget... management are clueless but like to mix their fingers into technical decisions .
The ONLY saving grace is that there is so much going on , that they are too busy to pay attention to most things , so all the demotivated slackers that they have trained can get some peace and quiet.Seriously... if one or two guys are goofing off for a living , it might be their bad .
If a whole department does it , I guarantee the problem is a little further up hill .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lets not get too on our high horse.I have also seen where laziness is rewarded, but how about where hard work is punished?I want you to imagine a place... Lets call it stupid world.
I don't have to imagine, I work there right now.If you do the work that they tell you to do.
You spend most of the day on facebook for lack of anything to keep busy with.
At reviews, you are told you are kicking ass.
You get raises when there is money.
Management mostly ignores you as you are quiet and don't make them do work either.If you raise issues to the attention of management... like about work we should do, or how to make improvements.
They will, at best, drag it out for two years.
Possibly just kill it for lack of benefit for our "limited resources".Of course... resources are only limited because everyone has been told they, and their boss will be in big trouble if they report less than 40 hours on their time sheet.
So managers say "you must report 40 hours".
So everyone is 100\% busy.... so there are no resources..... so you have no projects... so you have nothing to do.Lets not forget... management are clueless but like to mix their fingers into technical decisions.
The ONLY saving grace is that there is so much going on, that they are too busy to pay attention to most things, so all the demotivated slackers that they have trained can get some peace and quiet.Seriously... if one or two guys are goofing off for a living, it might be their bad.
If a whole department does it, I guarantee the problem is a little further up hill.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668128</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30677630</id>
	<title>Re:Hang Gliding while being paid to write code...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262787120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree with this. I have previously worked for a large-ish corporation, and now I am working for my family-owned business of less than 20 people. Thinking about it, my work ethic has changed. I'm much more motivated in my current job, partially because it's the family business, and partially because I know everyone, and I'm not just a number.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with this .
I have previously worked for a large-ish corporation , and now I am working for my family-owned business of less than 20 people .
Thinking about it , my work ethic has changed .
I 'm much more motivated in my current job , partially because it 's the family business , and partially because I know everyone , and I 'm not just a number .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with this.
I have previously worked for a large-ish corporation, and now I am working for my family-owned business of less than 20 people.
Thinking about it, my work ethic has changed.
I'm much more motivated in my current job, partially because it's the family business, and partially because I know everyone, and I'm not just a number.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668522</id>
	<title>Oblig. xkcd reference</title>
	<author>The Grim Reefer2</author>
	<datestamp>1262787840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://xkcd.com/303/" title="xkcd.com">http://xkcd.com/303/</a> [xkcd.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //xkcd.com/303/ [ xkcd.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://xkcd.com/303/ [xkcd.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30676934</id>
	<title>Yeah, me too....</title>
	<author>stonewolf</author>
	<datestamp>1262782440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What you see has nothing to do with working for a bunch of lazy unprofessional bums. It has nothing to do with the passing of time or the decline of the American work ethic. I've seen what you have seen and been shocked by it every time. The difference is that I'm now 57 and it doesn't surprise me anymore. I first saw this kind of problem in my first job pumping gas in 1972 and it hasn't changed since.</p><p>So what is going on? What is the cause? Well, some people are just lazy unprofessional bums. That has been true as long as there have been people. But, most people will do a good job, act professionally, and put in 8 to 12 solid hours of hard work in exchange for a few things. What motivates people the most is the freedom to do a good job without fear of being punished for doing it. That wasn't what you expected me to say was it? It is also nice to get reasonable pay.</p><p>In most of the places I've worked people were punished, in some way or another, for taking any kind of risk. They are punished for taking any kind of initiative. They are rewarded for doing what they are told to do. They are rewarded for fixing blame rather than fixing problems.</p><p>What you are seeing is the result of modern business management at its best. The people you see wasting time know, they know down in their guts, that they will not be fired for wasting time and they will not be rewarded for doing a good job. They know that they could be laid off, but they also know that people will be laid off for political not for being incompetent. They will not be laid off because they stand around in the hall talking about nothing important. But, they will be laid off for not spending enough time talking to their boss about this weeks football games. In fact, the highest paid person, they guy with the most experience and/or the greatest skills, is more likely to be laid off than the new guy who still can't find the coffee filters. Why? Because laying off the expensive people has more impact on the quarterly report.</p><p>The mid level managers tolerate all this crappy behavior because the know the same things.</p><p>A while back, I went to work for a new company and as I walked around I noticed this guy with a green Mohawk who was reading Slashdot.com. In fact, that is how I found out about Slashdot.... It seemed he was our "IT Guy" or as he called himself "the system manager". Awesome system manager. Nothing ever broke and he did all his serious work at night after every one had left so it didn't impact our daily work. Shortly after that I overheard the President asking the CTO why this guy was on the pay roll. The president described him as looking weird, being disrespectful, and he never saw him actually do anything. Then he went on to say that nothing ever went wrong anyway so why did we need a system manager? BTW, the president and the CTO both have technical masters degrees from MIT. They should know better. The CTO couldn't or wouldn't defend Green haired Mohawk guy.</p><p>I had a chat with GHMG that in which I told him to 1) stop doing his work at night, you must be seen to be doing work. When your work starts to interfere with day to day operations offer to come in at night to do it. But, ask for more money for night work. 2) let little things break once in a while so they see you fix them. They need that to understand the value you the bring to the company. 3) Do not read Slashdot where management can see you reading Slashdot. 4) Walk around and talk to people, ask them what you could do to make them more productive. Then pass that list on to your manager and ask him to prioritize the list. You have to be seen adding value over the long run. You have to be seen taking an interest in the success of the company. 5) Create an online database for reporting problems and tracking their solutions. You need that to document all unscheduled tasks you perform. Make sure that all work requests go through your database. You must be able to document all the work you really do.</p><p>Ok, so what happened? He did what I suggested. A couple of month</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What you see has nothing to do with working for a bunch of lazy unprofessional bums .
It has nothing to do with the passing of time or the decline of the American work ethic .
I 've seen what you have seen and been shocked by it every time .
The difference is that I 'm now 57 and it does n't surprise me anymore .
I first saw this kind of problem in my first job pumping gas in 1972 and it has n't changed since.So what is going on ?
What is the cause ?
Well , some people are just lazy unprofessional bums .
That has been true as long as there have been people .
But , most people will do a good job , act professionally , and put in 8 to 12 solid hours of hard work in exchange for a few things .
What motivates people the most is the freedom to do a good job without fear of being punished for doing it .
That was n't what you expected me to say was it ?
It is also nice to get reasonable pay.In most of the places I 've worked people were punished , in some way or another , for taking any kind of risk .
They are punished for taking any kind of initiative .
They are rewarded for doing what they are told to do .
They are rewarded for fixing blame rather than fixing problems.What you are seeing is the result of modern business management at its best .
The people you see wasting time know , they know down in their guts , that they will not be fired for wasting time and they will not be rewarded for doing a good job .
They know that they could be laid off , but they also know that people will be laid off for political not for being incompetent .
They will not be laid off because they stand around in the hall talking about nothing important .
But , they will be laid off for not spending enough time talking to their boss about this weeks football games .
In fact , the highest paid person , they guy with the most experience and/or the greatest skills , is more likely to be laid off than the new guy who still ca n't find the coffee filters .
Why ? Because laying off the expensive people has more impact on the quarterly report.The mid level managers tolerate all this crappy behavior because the know the same things.A while back , I went to work for a new company and as I walked around I noticed this guy with a green Mohawk who was reading Slashdot.com .
In fact , that is how I found out about Slashdot.... It seemed he was our " IT Guy " or as he called himself " the system manager " .
Awesome system manager .
Nothing ever broke and he did all his serious work at night after every one had left so it did n't impact our daily work .
Shortly after that I overheard the President asking the CTO why this guy was on the pay roll .
The president described him as looking weird , being disrespectful , and he never saw him actually do anything .
Then he went on to say that nothing ever went wrong anyway so why did we need a system manager ?
BTW , the president and the CTO both have technical masters degrees from MIT .
They should know better .
The CTO could n't or would n't defend Green haired Mohawk guy.I had a chat with GHMG that in which I told him to 1 ) stop doing his work at night , you must be seen to be doing work .
When your work starts to interfere with day to day operations offer to come in at night to do it .
But , ask for more money for night work .
2 ) let little things break once in a while so they see you fix them .
They need that to understand the value you the bring to the company .
3 ) Do not read Slashdot where management can see you reading Slashdot .
4 ) Walk around and talk to people , ask them what you could do to make them more productive .
Then pass that list on to your manager and ask him to prioritize the list .
You have to be seen adding value over the long run .
You have to be seen taking an interest in the success of the company .
5 ) Create an online database for reporting problems and tracking their solutions .
You need that to document all unscheduled tasks you perform .
Make sure that all work requests go through your database .
You must be able to document all the work you really do.Ok , so what happened ?
He did what I suggested .
A couple of month</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What you see has nothing to do with working for a bunch of lazy unprofessional bums.
It has nothing to do with the passing of time or the decline of the American work ethic.
I've seen what you have seen and been shocked by it every time.
The difference is that I'm now 57 and it doesn't surprise me anymore.
I first saw this kind of problem in my first job pumping gas in 1972 and it hasn't changed since.So what is going on?
What is the cause?
Well, some people are just lazy unprofessional bums.
That has been true as long as there have been people.
But, most people will do a good job, act professionally, and put in 8 to 12 solid hours of hard work in exchange for a few things.
What motivates people the most is the freedom to do a good job without fear of being punished for doing it.
That wasn't what you expected me to say was it?
It is also nice to get reasonable pay.In most of the places I've worked people were punished, in some way or another, for taking any kind of risk.
They are punished for taking any kind of initiative.
They are rewarded for doing what they are told to do.
They are rewarded for fixing blame rather than fixing problems.What you are seeing is the result of modern business management at its best.
The people you see wasting time know, they know down in their guts, that they will not be fired for wasting time and they will not be rewarded for doing a good job.
They know that they could be laid off, but they also know that people will be laid off for political not for being incompetent.
They will not be laid off because they stand around in the hall talking about nothing important.
But, they will be laid off for not spending enough time talking to their boss about this weeks football games.
In fact, the highest paid person, they guy with the most experience and/or the greatest skills, is more likely to be laid off than the new guy who still can't find the coffee filters.
Why? Because laying off the expensive people has more impact on the quarterly report.The mid level managers tolerate all this crappy behavior because the know the same things.A while back, I went to work for a new company and as I walked around I noticed this guy with a green Mohawk who was reading Slashdot.com.
In fact, that is how I found out about Slashdot.... It seemed he was our "IT Guy" or as he called himself "the system manager".
Awesome system manager.
Nothing ever broke and he did all his serious work at night after every one had left so it didn't impact our daily work.
Shortly after that I overheard the President asking the CTO why this guy was on the pay roll.
The president described him as looking weird, being disrespectful, and he never saw him actually do anything.
Then he went on to say that nothing ever went wrong anyway so why did we need a system manager?
BTW, the president and the CTO both have technical masters degrees from MIT.
They should know better.
The CTO couldn't or wouldn't defend Green haired Mohawk guy.I had a chat with GHMG that in which I told him to 1) stop doing his work at night, you must be seen to be doing work.
When your work starts to interfere with day to day operations offer to come in at night to do it.
But, ask for more money for night work.
2) let little things break once in a while so they see you fix them.
They need that to understand the value you the bring to the company.
3) Do not read Slashdot where management can see you reading Slashdot.
4) Walk around and talk to people, ask them what you could do to make them more productive.
Then pass that list on to your manager and ask him to prioritize the list.
You have to be seen adding value over the long run.
You have to be seen taking an interest in the success of the company.
5) Create an online database for reporting problems and tracking their solutions.
You need that to document all unscheduled tasks you perform.
Make sure that all work requests go through your database.
You must be able to document all the work you really do.Ok, so what happened?
He did what I suggested.
A couple of month</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669370</id>
	<title>First rule about working in 3 hour bursts..</title>
	<author>BigGerman</author>
	<datestamp>1262792700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>.. is not to talk about working in 3 hour bursts. We all do. Often, only one of those per day.</htmltext>
<tokenext>.. is not to talk about working in 3 hour bursts .
We all do .
Often , only one of those per day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>.. is not to talk about working in 3 hour bursts.
We all do.
Often, only one of those per day.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669688</id>
	<title>Get a job pushing a wheelbarrow, IT is not for you</title>
	<author>dis0wned</author>
	<datestamp>1262794260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Get a job pushing a wheelbarrow, IT is not for you!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Get a job pushing a wheelbarrow , IT is not for you !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get a job pushing a wheelbarrow, IT is not for you!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670852</id>
	<title>Re:Peter.... how's it going?</title>
	<author>gnapster</author>
	<datestamp>1262798400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>James Cameron has clearly been misdirecting his efforts.</htmltext>
<tokenext>James Cameron has clearly been misdirecting his efforts .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>James Cameron has clearly been misdirecting his efforts.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668160</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30669064</id>
	<title>Re:Why are you asking us?</title>
	<author>Dr\_Barnowl</author>
	<datestamp>1262791200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Now there's an idea<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... freelance coding + firefighting.</p><p>Get PAID to cook and work out. Awesome.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Now there 's an idea ... freelance coding + firefighting.Get PAID to cook and work out .
Awesome .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now there's an idea ... freelance coding + firefighting.Get PAID to cook and work out.
Awesome.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668112</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30696294</id>
	<title>Re:Comparison</title>
	<author>HikingStick</author>
	<datestamp>1262973060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Many employers hire people for what they know, not simply to do some set task (though tasks must be completed). That "pay for performance" model goes against all of the "old school" and "face time" management styles.  So long as you get your assigned tasks done and are a team player, you're doing what you were hired to do.  If your peers feel you have way too much free time, be sure that management will hear about it.  Most people I've know who work in such environments don't want to be bored out of their minds.  They do, however, tend to work in spurts of intense activity followed by periods of more relaxed time (when the time pressures are not so great).  Even in my life of day-to-day IT as my employer's only IT guy, I have weeks where I put in 80 hours and hardly have time to breathe, and other weeks where there's hardly a request for my help and I can catch up on other projects while keeping my Scrabble window open on one of my monitors.  Someone not familiar with my workload or responsibilities might assume I'm a slacker, but some weeks I've put in more evening and weekend hours than our "top performers" put in Monday through Friday.  So long as the boss is happy, I'm happy, and I have quite a bit of freedom.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Many employers hire people for what they know , not simply to do some set task ( though tasks must be completed ) .
That " pay for performance " model goes against all of the " old school " and " face time " management styles .
So long as you get your assigned tasks done and are a team player , you 're doing what you were hired to do .
If your peers feel you have way too much free time , be sure that management will hear about it .
Most people I 've know who work in such environments do n't want to be bored out of their minds .
They do , however , tend to work in spurts of intense activity followed by periods of more relaxed time ( when the time pressures are not so great ) .
Even in my life of day-to-day IT as my employer 's only IT guy , I have weeks where I put in 80 hours and hardly have time to breathe , and other weeks where there 's hardly a request for my help and I can catch up on other projects while keeping my Scrabble window open on one of my monitors .
Someone not familiar with my workload or responsibilities might assume I 'm a slacker , but some weeks I 've put in more evening and weekend hours than our " top performers " put in Monday through Friday .
So long as the boss is happy , I 'm happy , and I have quite a bit of freedom .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many employers hire people for what they know, not simply to do some set task (though tasks must be completed).
That "pay for performance" model goes against all of the "old school" and "face time" management styles.
So long as you get your assigned tasks done and are a team player, you're doing what you were hired to do.
If your peers feel you have way too much free time, be sure that management will hear about it.
Most people I've know who work in such environments don't want to be bored out of their minds.
They do, however, tend to work in spurts of intense activity followed by periods of more relaxed time (when the time pressures are not so great).
Even in my life of day-to-day IT as my employer's only IT guy, I have weeks where I put in 80 hours and hardly have time to breathe, and other weeks where there's hardly a request for my help and I can catch up on other projects while keeping my Scrabble window open on one of my monitors.
Someone not familiar with my workload or responsibilities might assume I'm a slacker, but some weeks I've put in more evening and weekend hours than our "top performers" put in Monday through Friday.
So long as the boss is happy, I'm happy, and I have quite a bit of freedom.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30671708</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30685358</id>
	<title>Writers? Yeah, ok.</title>
	<author>wiedzmin</author>
	<datestamp>1262891700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Coders are like writers", haha, yeah right. Why don't you "writers" use some of that inspiration of yours to comment your code when you do spend 20 minutes of your day, between eating bagels and drinking coffee, to actually write a few lines of exploit-infested, non-sanitized-SQL-input-riddled "code"... so that us IT guys don't have to spend 3 days digging through your scribbles, trying to find that memory leak or unchecked loop that's hanging that particular w3wp.exe process on a server shared by 120 of you guys, all blaming IT for it while chatting in the hallway with each-other. Thanks.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Coders are like writers " , haha , yeah right .
Why do n't you " writers " use some of that inspiration of yours to comment your code when you do spend 20 minutes of your day , between eating bagels and drinking coffee , to actually write a few lines of exploit-infested , non-sanitized-SQL-input-riddled " code " ... so that us IT guys do n't have to spend 3 days digging through your scribbles , trying to find that memory leak or unchecked loop that 's hanging that particular w3wp.exe process on a server shared by 120 of you guys , all blaming IT for it while chatting in the hallway with each-other .
Thanks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Coders are like writers", haha, yeah right.
Why don't you "writers" use some of that inspiration of yours to comment your code when you do spend 20 minutes of your day, between eating bagels and drinking coffee, to actually write a few lines of exploit-infested, non-sanitized-SQL-input-riddled "code"... so that us IT guys don't have to spend 3 days digging through your scribbles, trying to find that memory leak or unchecked loop that's hanging that particular w3wp.exe process on a server shared by 120 of you guys, all blaming IT for it while chatting in the hallway with each-other.
Thanks.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30679674</id>
	<title>...and you went to college for that</title>
	<author>DrStoooopid</author>
	<datestamp>1262807220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...welcome to the world of IT, dude. Where we compare salaries by how much we get paid to take a shit, see how much we can NOT get done, and do just enough to keep from getting fired. You've never seen Office Space, have you?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...welcome to the world of IT , dude .
Where we compare salaries by how much we get paid to take a shit , see how much we can NOT get done , and do just enough to keep from getting fired .
You 've never seen Office Space , have you ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...welcome to the world of IT, dude.
Where we compare salaries by how much we get paid to take a shit, see how much we can NOT get done, and do just enough to keep from getting fired.
You've never seen Office Space, have you?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667540</id>
	<title>get out while you can</title>
	<author>dan\_in\_dublin</author>
	<datestamp>1262778120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>if you want to become strong, as a start out developer you need to be an environment where you learn from your peers.  If you are motivated to learn and produce things it will be difficult if your peers are unproductive and management weak.

The risk is that your peers are happy with the status quo and that management are not motivated to improve the engineering  dept.  You may find yourself getting frustrated as you grow, but your colleagues stay the same.  There are some great companies out there who care about engineering, the trick is to identify them when interviewing.  Asking questions such as 'how do you guys measure engineering quality' or 'what software lifecycle is predominant' are inoffensive, but tell you important things about how the engineering department operates

I've 10 years experience as an engineer now.  In your position, I would ask myself  question 'what can i learn from my colleagues' and if after 6 or 9 months in a company, the answer is not good then you may have made a mistake joining that company.  While job hopping is not good, it may be the best thing to do.  Just be careful not to repeat the mnistake,I know some companies that will not hire someone with a history of changing job more frequently than once every two years.</htmltext>
<tokenext>if you want to become strong , as a start out developer you need to be an environment where you learn from your peers .
If you are motivated to learn and produce things it will be difficult if your peers are unproductive and management weak .
The risk is that your peers are happy with the status quo and that management are not motivated to improve the engineering dept .
You may find yourself getting frustrated as you grow , but your colleagues stay the same .
There are some great companies out there who care about engineering , the trick is to identify them when interviewing .
Asking questions such as 'how do you guys measure engineering quality ' or 'what software lifecycle is predominant ' are inoffensive , but tell you important things about how the engineering department operates I 've 10 years experience as an engineer now .
In your position , I would ask myself question 'what can i learn from my colleagues ' and if after 6 or 9 months in a company , the answer is not good then you may have made a mistake joining that company .
While job hopping is not good , it may be the best thing to do .
Just be careful not to repeat the mnistake,I know some companies that will not hire someone with a history of changing job more frequently than once every two years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if you want to become strong, as a start out developer you need to be an environment where you learn from your peers.
If you are motivated to learn and produce things it will be difficult if your peers are unproductive and management weak.
The risk is that your peers are happy with the status quo and that management are not motivated to improve the engineering  dept.
You may find yourself getting frustrated as you grow, but your colleagues stay the same.
There are some great companies out there who care about engineering, the trick is to identify them when interviewing.
Asking questions such as 'how do you guys measure engineering quality' or 'what software lifecycle is predominant' are inoffensive, but tell you important things about how the engineering department operates

I've 10 years experience as an engineer now.
In your position, I would ask myself  question 'what can i learn from my colleagues' and if after 6 or 9 months in a company, the answer is not good then you may have made a mistake joining that company.
While job hopping is not good, it may be the best thing to do.
Just be careful not to repeat the mnistake,I know some companies that will not hire someone with a history of changing job more frequently than once every two years.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30671842</id>
	<title>Re:IT vs. factory</title>
	<author>dangitman</author>
	<datestamp>1262802420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>IT requires creative thinking and, in my experience, creativity comes when you think and create a solution to a problem.
The next stage is implementing the solution via coding, building, or other processes.</p></div><p>That doesn't sound like IT to me. IT is when you get called out because somebody can't print their document. It doesn't involve creativity or long-term planning at all. Perhaps you are thinking of software development or something?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>IT requires creative thinking and , in my experience , creativity comes when you think and create a solution to a problem .
The next stage is implementing the solution via coding , building , or other processes.That does n't sound like IT to me .
IT is when you get called out because somebody ca n't print their document .
It does n't involve creativity or long-term planning at all .
Perhaps you are thinking of software development or something ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IT requires creative thinking and, in my experience, creativity comes when you think and create a solution to a problem.
The next stage is implementing the solution via coding, building, or other processes.That doesn't sound like IT to me.
IT is when you get called out because somebody can't print their document.
It doesn't involve creativity or long-term planning at all.
Perhaps you are thinking of software development or something?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30668726</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667730</id>
	<title>Reading /. != slacking</title>
	<author>Shag</author>
	<datestamp>1262780400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Working as a developer back in the 1900s, I had free subscriptions to some relevant magazines.  Yes, the time I spent reading them was time I didn't spend coding, but it meant I kept abreast of developments in the field, which was a Good Thing as far as my employers were concerned.</p><p>Slashdot's "news for nerds" and "stuff that matters" are generally more useful, and certainly more timely, than those magazines ever were.  I'm not in IT any more, but I'm close enough to it that people still appreciate and value me knowing what's up in technology.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Working as a developer back in the 1900s , I had free subscriptions to some relevant magazines .
Yes , the time I spent reading them was time I did n't spend coding , but it meant I kept abreast of developments in the field , which was a Good Thing as far as my employers were concerned.Slashdot 's " news for nerds " and " stuff that matters " are generally more useful , and certainly more timely , than those magazines ever were .
I 'm not in IT any more , but I 'm close enough to it that people still appreciate and value me knowing what 's up in technology .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Working as a developer back in the 1900s, I had free subscriptions to some relevant magazines.
Yes, the time I spent reading them was time I didn't spend coding, but it meant I kept abreast of developments in the field, which was a Good Thing as far as my employers were concerned.Slashdot's "news for nerds" and "stuff that matters" are generally more useful, and certainly more timely, than those magazines ever were.
I'm not in IT any more, but I'm close enough to it that people still appreciate and value me knowing what's up in technology.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670134</id>
	<title>Agile seemed to help...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262796000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We launched a major Agile effort in our shop and the daily deliverables and scrums seem to help keep people on track.  Fortunately, the scrum masters aren't horse-driver types.</p><p>Corey</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We launched a major Agile effort in our shop and the daily deliverables and scrums seem to help keep people on track .
Fortunately , the scrum masters are n't horse-driver types.Corey</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We launched a major Agile effort in our shop and the daily deliverables and scrums seem to help keep people on track.
Fortunately, the scrum masters aren't horse-driver types.Corey</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667822</id>
	<title>Subject</title>
	<author>Legion303</author>
	<datestamp>1262781360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"I would like to ask Slashdot what methods others have used to deal with office environments such as this."</p><p>I usually dump my extra work on the new guy so I have more time to relax and goof off. You should pressure your company to hire someone newer than yourself.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" I would like to ask Slashdot what methods others have used to deal with office environments such as this .
" I usually dump my extra work on the new guy so I have more time to relax and goof off .
You should pressure your company to hire someone newer than yourself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"I would like to ask Slashdot what methods others have used to deal with office environments such as this.
"I usually dump my extra work on the new guy so I have more time to relax and goof off.
You should pressure your company to hire someone newer than yourself.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30667578</id>
	<title>It's all too common, but don't misunderstand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262778540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't misunderstand when I say this, but general unprofessionalism in IT is quite rampant.  I don't mean large amounts of personal time or anything, but general jackassery, politics, and bad bosses seem to be exponentially more numerous in IT from my experience, especially in contracting or development.  If anything, you should be glad that management tolerates it, since I work in a tight spot where bosses have cracked down on everything treating the staff like Kindergartners who can't wipe their own ass after taking a shit.  Use the leniency in management to get some free time in at work, while making sure you still get your work done properly and to the best of your ability.</p><p>As for the extra hours, it varies in time from person to person, but you'll eventually grow some balls and tell them (albeit in very polite corporate speak) to get bent.  My corporate balls dropped after putting in over 40+ hours on off days for various emergencies and projects, only to get a strictly average performance review from my boss with no mention of my efforts; your situation will probably differ in some respects, but all of us here have had that eye opening moment at some point.</p><p>Look at it this way.  If you're being challenged, find the work interesting, and find some downtime during your normal shifts after work has been completed, then I see no problem. You'll always have asshat employees and jackass bosses, but that's the norm.  Quit worrying about everyone else, and worry about what concerns you directly, and get it done.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't misunderstand when I say this , but general unprofessionalism in IT is quite rampant .
I do n't mean large amounts of personal time or anything , but general jackassery , politics , and bad bosses seem to be exponentially more numerous in IT from my experience , especially in contracting or development .
If anything , you should be glad that management tolerates it , since I work in a tight spot where bosses have cracked down on everything treating the staff like Kindergartners who ca n't wipe their own ass after taking a shit .
Use the leniency in management to get some free time in at work , while making sure you still get your work done properly and to the best of your ability.As for the extra hours , it varies in time from person to person , but you 'll eventually grow some balls and tell them ( albeit in very polite corporate speak ) to get bent .
My corporate balls dropped after putting in over 40 + hours on off days for various emergencies and projects , only to get a strictly average performance review from my boss with no mention of my efforts ; your situation will probably differ in some respects , but all of us here have had that eye opening moment at some point.Look at it this way .
If you 're being challenged , find the work interesting , and find some downtime during your normal shifts after work has been completed , then I see no problem .
You 'll always have asshat employees and jackass bosses , but that 's the norm .
Quit worrying about everyone else , and worry about what concerns you directly , and get it done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't misunderstand when I say this, but general unprofessionalism in IT is quite rampant.
I don't mean large amounts of personal time or anything, but general jackassery, politics, and bad bosses seem to be exponentially more numerous in IT from my experience, especially in contracting or development.
If anything, you should be glad that management tolerates it, since I work in a tight spot where bosses have cracked down on everything treating the staff like Kindergartners who can't wipe their own ass after taking a shit.
Use the leniency in management to get some free time in at work, while making sure you still get your work done properly and to the best of your ability.As for the extra hours, it varies in time from person to person, but you'll eventually grow some balls and tell them (albeit in very polite corporate speak) to get bent.
My corporate balls dropped after putting in over 40+ hours on off days for various emergencies and projects, only to get a strictly average performance review from my boss with no mention of my efforts; your situation will probably differ in some respects, but all of us here have had that eye opening moment at some point.Look at it this way.
If you're being challenged, find the work interesting, and find some downtime during your normal shifts after work has been completed, then I see no problem.
You'll always have asshat employees and jackass bosses, but that's the norm.
Quit worrying about everyone else, and worry about what concerns you directly, and get it done.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_06_0035248.30670450</id>
	<title>Balance and the scales of justice</title>
	<author>engrstephens</author>
	<datestamp>1262797200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My favorite professor has a set of scales on his bookshelf to remind him that everything must be kept in balance, and that very much includes your personal life.  What most people don't realize is that everyone has a limit to how much time they can effectively work.  Working 12 hour days will eventually lead to working 0 hour days surfing the internet or processing your divorce.  Put work under a time axis.  No matter what you do, the area under the curve remains consistant, all your doing is changing the window.

Remember that what the company is saving in money by making you work hard you will most likely pay on the backend in your health, personal life and mental state. THESE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT!

Finally, sometimes a deadline can't be hit, if you work hard to make the deadline be sure to make it apparent that this is a temporary burst that requires adequet recovery time.  If not you will be continously worked hard until you break and they fire you for not performing.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My favorite professor has a set of scales on his bookshelf to remind him that everything must be kept in balance , and that very much includes your personal life .
What most people do n't realize is that everyone has a limit to how much time they can effectively work .
Working 12 hour days will eventually lead to working 0 hour days surfing the internet or processing your divorce .
Put work under a time axis .
No matter what you do , the area under the curve remains consistant , all your doing is changing the window .
Remember that what the company is saving in money by making you work hard you will most likely pay on the backend in your health , personal life and mental state .
THESE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT !
Finally , sometimes a deadline ca n't be hit , if you work hard to make the deadline be sure to make it apparent that this is a temporary burst that requires adequet recovery time .
If not you will be continously worked hard until you break and they fire you for not performing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My favorite professor has a set of scales on his bookshelf to remind him that everything must be kept in balance, and that very much includes your personal life.
What most people don't realize is that everyone has a limit to how much time they can effectively work.
Working 12 hour days will eventually lead to working 0 hour days surfing the internet or processing your divorce.
Put work under a time axis.
No matter what you do, the area under the curve remains consistant, all your doing is changing the window.
Remember that what the company is saving in money by making you work hard you will most likely pay on the backend in your health, personal life and mental state.
THESE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT!
Finally, sometimes a deadline can't be hit, if you work hard to make the deadline be sure to make it apparent that this is a temporary burst that requires adequet recovery time.
If not you will be continously worked hard until you break and they fire you for not performing.</sentencetext>
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