<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_12_27_1857225</id>
	<title>How To Teach a 12-Year-Old To Program?</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1261943280000</datestamp>
	<htmltext><a href="mailto:dlauerspam@ERDOSgmail.comminusmath\_god" rel="nofollow">thelordx</a> writes <i>"I've got a much younger brother who I'd like to teach how to program. When I was younger, you'd often start off with something like BASIC or Apple BASIC, maybe move on to Pascal, and eventually get to C and Java. Is something like Pascal still a dominant teaching language? I'd love to get low-level with him, and I firmly believe that C is the best language to eventually learn, but I'm not sure how to get him there. Can anyone recommend a language I can start to teach him that is simple enough to learn quickly, but powerful enough to do interesting things and lead him down a path towards C/C++?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>thelordx writes " I 've got a much younger brother who I 'd like to teach how to program .
When I was younger , you 'd often start off with something like BASIC or Apple BASIC , maybe move on to Pascal , and eventually get to C and Java .
Is something like Pascal still a dominant teaching language ?
I 'd love to get low-level with him , and I firmly believe that C is the best language to eventually learn , but I 'm not sure how to get him there .
Can anyone recommend a language I can start to teach him that is simple enough to learn quickly , but powerful enough to do interesting things and lead him down a path towards C/C + + ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>thelordx writes "I've got a much younger brother who I'd like to teach how to program.
When I was younger, you'd often start off with something like BASIC or Apple BASIC, maybe move on to Pascal, and eventually get to C and Java.
Is something like Pascal still a dominant teaching language?
I'd love to get low-level with him, and I firmly believe that C is the best language to eventually learn, but I'm not sure how to get him there.
Can anyone recommend a language I can start to teach him that is simple enough to learn quickly, but powerful enough to do interesting things and lead him down a path towards C/C++?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567624</id>
	<title>How about something like Liberty Basic?</title>
	<author>randomErr</author>
	<datestamp>1261926720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What about a basic lanugage?</p><p>You have Liberty Basic which is fairly cheap and pretty close to the Apple basic days.  You could FreeBasic which is free, you would just have to setup one the free IDE's.  Also Emeregnce Basic which is shutting down in a week or so is cheep and you get the source code for a $100.  The first and last have decent interfaces and will support some fairly advanced programs.</p><p>Emeregnce Basic Bundle:<br><a href="http://www.ionicwind.com/forums/index.php?topic=3823.0" title="ionicwind.com">http://www.ionicwind.com/forums/index.php?topic=3823.0</a> [ionicwind.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What about a basic lanugage ? You have Liberty Basic which is fairly cheap and pretty close to the Apple basic days .
You could FreeBasic which is free , you would just have to setup one the free IDE 's .
Also Emeregnce Basic which is shutting down in a week or so is cheep and you get the source code for a $ 100 .
The first and last have decent interfaces and will support some fairly advanced programs.Emeregnce Basic Bundle : http : //www.ionicwind.com/forums/index.php ? topic = 3823.0 [ ionicwind.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What about a basic lanugage?You have Liberty Basic which is fairly cheap and pretty close to the Apple basic days.
You could FreeBasic which is free, you would just have to setup one the free IDE's.
Also Emeregnce Basic which is shutting down in a week or so is cheep and you get the source code for a $100.
The first and last have decent interfaces and will support some fairly advanced programs.Emeregnce Basic Bundle:http://www.ionicwind.com/forums/index.php?topic=3823.0 [ionicwind.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566478</id>
	<title>No</title>
	<author>omb</author>
	<datestamp>1261916460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>OO is very unlike how anyone with any sense thinks, but the concept has a useful place in the toolbox. The problem is it is much overused, and the popular coding style x.hpp x.cpp for each class, too many, ill thought out classes or class-heirarchies make for obfusticated code and require a visualizer which tended to be expensive.<br><br>The test of a really bad OO design is Singleton classes, Singleton objects and, as already been mentioned above, factories<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... this is OO bullshit!</htmltext>
<tokenext>OO is very unlike how anyone with any sense thinks , but the concept has a useful place in the toolbox .
The problem is it is much overused , and the popular coding style x.hpp x.cpp for each class , too many , ill thought out classes or class-heirarchies make for obfusticated code and require a visualizer which tended to be expensive.The test of a really bad OO design is Singleton classes , Singleton objects and , as already been mentioned above , factories ... this is OO bullshit !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>OO is very unlike how anyone with any sense thinks, but the concept has a useful place in the toolbox.
The problem is it is much overused, and the popular coding style x.hpp x.cpp for each class, too many, ill thought out classes or class-heirarchies make for obfusticated code and require a visualizer which tended to be expensive.The test of a really bad OO design is Singleton classes, Singleton objects and, as already been mentioned above, factories ... this is OO bullshit!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566124</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566372</id>
	<title>Why C/C++?</title>
	<author>CptPicard</author>
	<datestamp>1261915500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have talked about the "programmer's learning path" a lot, and considering my own experiences, I am quite convinced that there is no such thing as a "continuum" towards C or C++... C is minimal and dull and a lot of work for a beginner to get anything done in, C++ is hairy and complex (even from my experienced programmer's perspective) and rigid.</p><p>Personally I have started to view programming more and more simply in terms of "formulating problem solutions in a Turing-complete symbolic system". As such, the machine-specifics have receded more and more into the background... I tend to see C for example in terms of a small set of imperative, structured-programming statements instead of "low-level programming"... the machine is just simply not important as long as the specification of the language is correct. What truly has been the most instructive thing for me ever as a programmer was learning Lisp -- I'm mostly a fanatical Lisper these days whenever I can. Of course, C's imperative statements are trivially included as a part of Lisp. It's nothing to write home about.</p><p>Python is a nice language because it contains a lot of important high-level programming ideas in a language that is easy to use... that is, it does not even waste an experienced programmer's time. Managing your memory does not make you more of a man... understanding how programming conceptually works is far more crucial.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have talked about the " programmer 's learning path " a lot , and considering my own experiences , I am quite convinced that there is no such thing as a " continuum " towards C or C + + ... C is minimal and dull and a lot of work for a beginner to get anything done in , C + + is hairy and complex ( even from my experienced programmer 's perspective ) and rigid.Personally I have started to view programming more and more simply in terms of " formulating problem solutions in a Turing-complete symbolic system " .
As such , the machine-specifics have receded more and more into the background... I tend to see C for example in terms of a small set of imperative , structured-programming statements instead of " low-level programming " ... the machine is just simply not important as long as the specification of the language is correct .
What truly has been the most instructive thing for me ever as a programmer was learning Lisp -- I 'm mostly a fanatical Lisper these days whenever I can .
Of course , C 's imperative statements are trivially included as a part of Lisp .
It 's nothing to write home about.Python is a nice language because it contains a lot of important high-level programming ideas in a language that is easy to use... that is , it does not even waste an experienced programmer 's time .
Managing your memory does not make you more of a man... understanding how programming conceptually works is far more crucial .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have talked about the "programmer's learning path" a lot, and considering my own experiences, I am quite convinced that there is no such thing as a "continuum" towards C or C++... C is minimal and dull and a lot of work for a beginner to get anything done in, C++ is hairy and complex (even from my experienced programmer's perspective) and rigid.Personally I have started to view programming more and more simply in terms of "formulating problem solutions in a Turing-complete symbolic system".
As such, the machine-specifics have receded more and more into the background... I tend to see C for example in terms of a small set of imperative, structured-programming statements instead of "low-level programming"... the machine is just simply not important as long as the specification of the language is correct.
What truly has been the most instructive thing for me ever as a programmer was learning Lisp -- I'm mostly a fanatical Lisper these days whenever I can.
Of course, C's imperative statements are trivially included as a part of Lisp.
It's nothing to write home about.Python is a nice language because it contains a lot of important high-level programming ideas in a language that is easy to use... that is, it does not even waste an experienced programmer's time.
Managing your memory does not make you more of a man... understanding how programming conceptually works is far more crucial.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568992</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262033100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Visual Basic is the easiest compiled language I have ever seen.  He can do many types of programs in mere seconds and do them in what used to take hours 30 years ago.  It is the world's most popular RAD (rapid app development) language and what most schools who know anything will start a person on.  You don't have to know how to do complex references but when you do that too is very simple.  As a person who has taught 7 different programming languages to students I can safely tell you VB is the easiest.<br>Another thing I like about VB is the cool phenomenon of people who have no interest in programming at all but once you show them a few things and how easy it is to do ~ catching fire with it and programming like crazy.  If there were ever to come a day when they would tell me I could no longer teach VB as an introductory language I would say "Adios!"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Visual Basic is the easiest compiled language I have ever seen .
He can do many types of programs in mere seconds and do them in what used to take hours 30 years ago .
It is the world 's most popular RAD ( rapid app development ) language and what most schools who know anything will start a person on .
You do n't have to know how to do complex references but when you do that too is very simple .
As a person who has taught 7 different programming languages to students I can safely tell you VB is the easiest.Another thing I like about VB is the cool phenomenon of people who have no interest in programming at all but once you show them a few things and how easy it is to do ~ catching fire with it and programming like crazy .
If there were ever to come a day when they would tell me I could no longer teach VB as an introductory language I would say " Adios !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Visual Basic is the easiest compiled language I have ever seen.
He can do many types of programs in mere seconds and do them in what used to take hours 30 years ago.
It is the world's most popular RAD (rapid app development) language and what most schools who know anything will start a person on.
You don't have to know how to do complex references but when you do that too is very simple.
As a person who has taught 7 different programming languages to students I can safely tell you VB is the easiest.Another thing I like about VB is the cool phenomenon of people who have no interest in programming at all but once you show them a few things and how easy it is to do ~ catching fire with it and programming like crazy.
If there were ever to come a day when they would tell me I could no longer teach VB as an introductory language I would say "Adios!
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30576816</id>
	<title>Scratch from MIT (previously on /.)</title>
	<author>amonroy</author>
	<datestamp>1262001300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You might want to check Scratch: <a href="http://scratch.mit.edu/" title="mit.edu" rel="nofollow">http://scratch.mit.edu/</a> [mit.edu]

It's free, runs on Linux, Mac and Win and let's people share their videogames and animations on the web.
It was discussed before here: <a href="http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/15/1420238" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/15/1420238</a> [slashdot.org]

For those interested in connecting to the physical world you can get the PicoBoard or the LEGO WeDo which interface with Scratch</htmltext>
<tokenext>You might want to check Scratch : http : //scratch.mit.edu/ [ mit.edu ] It 's free , runs on Linux , Mac and Win and let 's people share their videogames and animations on the web .
It was discussed before here : http : //tech.slashdot.org/article.pl ? sid = 07/05/15/1420238 [ slashdot.org ] For those interested in connecting to the physical world you can get the PicoBoard or the LEGO WeDo which interface with Scratch</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You might want to check Scratch: http://scratch.mit.edu/ [mit.edu]

It's free, runs on Linux, Mac and Win and let's people share their videogames and animations on the web.
It was discussed before here: http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/15/1420238 [slashdot.org]

For those interested in connecting to the physical world you can get the PicoBoard or the LEGO WeDo which interface with Scratch</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568250</id>
	<title>What is he interested in?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261934220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My first languages were LOGO, BASIC (Atari, C-64, GW-BASIC), and I moved on to C and many others.</p><p>What's important is exposure to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/ideas/ about computing. I would first, of course, see if he's even interested at all. Then, try several different languages and see what he likes.</p><p>There are systems designed specifically for teaching, such as LOGO, Alice, and others. You can get "modern" LOGO systems. Try an ALGOL-based language, like Pascal.<br>Try an Object-Oriented language, like Simula or Smalltalk. Try<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... you get the idea.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>My point is, essentially, that he won't be programming for a living for a long while, if ever. It's much more important to understand what can be done with computers, and how,<br>then to worry about any particular language. If he's destined to be a geek/nerd/whatever, he'll do a lot on his own. Commercially "hot" languages change with great frequency,<br>so don't worry about that too much.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My first languages were LOGO , BASIC ( Atari , C-64 , GW-BASIC ) , and I moved on to C and many others.What 's important is exposure to /ideas/ about computing .
I would first , of course , see if he 's even interested at all .
Then , try several different languages and see what he likes.There are systems designed specifically for teaching , such as LOGO , Alice , and others .
You can get " modern " LOGO systems .
Try an ALGOL-based language , like Pascal.Try an Object-Oriented language , like Simula or Smalltalk .
Try ... you get the idea .
: ) My point is , essentially , that he wo n't be programming for a living for a long while , if ever .
It 's much more important to understand what can be done with computers , and how,then to worry about any particular language .
If he 's destined to be a geek/nerd/whatever , he 'll do a lot on his own .
Commercially " hot " languages change with great frequency,so do n't worry about that too much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My first languages were LOGO, BASIC (Atari, C-64, GW-BASIC), and I moved on to C and many others.What's important is exposure to /ideas/ about computing.
I would first, of course, see if he's even interested at all.
Then, try several different languages and see what he likes.There are systems designed specifically for teaching, such as LOGO, Alice, and others.
You can get "modern" LOGO systems.
Try an ALGOL-based language, like Pascal.Try an Object-Oriented language, like Simula or Smalltalk.
Try ... you get the idea.
:)My point is, essentially, that he won't be programming for a living for a long while, if ever.
It's much more important to understand what can be done with computers, and how,then to worry about any particular language.
If he's destined to be a geek/nerd/whatever, he'll do a lot on his own.
Commercially "hot" languages change with great frequency,so don't worry about that too much.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565442</id>
	<title>Re:Perl</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261907460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>all trolling aside...</p><p>Perl is designed to be a 'natural' language, kind of like the ones we speak. A 4 year old can speak English, and senior scientists use the same language to discuss very advanced topics. Perl is like that. He can learn it very fast and do neat things and not have to worry about the lower level constructs. But when he's ready for those, they are there. And the transition into C from that point will be very smooth.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>all trolling aside...Perl is designed to be a 'natural ' language , kind of like the ones we speak .
A 4 year old can speak English , and senior scientists use the same language to discuss very advanced topics .
Perl is like that .
He can learn it very fast and do neat things and not have to worry about the lower level constructs .
But when he 's ready for those , they are there .
And the transition into C from that point will be very smooth .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>all trolling aside...Perl is designed to be a 'natural' language, kind of like the ones we speak.
A 4 year old can speak English, and senior scientists use the same language to discuss very advanced topics.
Perl is like that.
He can learn it very fast and do neat things and not have to worry about the lower level constructs.
But when he's ready for those, they are there.
And the transition into C from that point will be very smooth.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565002</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566184</id>
	<title>Basic with gotos</title>
	<author>presidenteloco</author>
	<datestamp>1261913760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I learned with old Apple II+ Basic.<br>It had a crucial fun aspect in that it could control the coloured graphics and the speaker tones.<br>But more importantly, the goto statements made it sort of clear the step by step sequential<br>evaluation that the computer was doing of your language statements. Without that mental model<br>of the program counter going over the statements, it's all going to remain "magic".</p><p>After those initial clumsy Basic programs, I added two different things, and I think both are<br>essential.</p><p>1. I went downwards, and studied how the assembly language and machine language<br>and memory bytes/words etc.<br>worked (and kind of how they related to the high-level basic statements and variables etc.</p><p>And most importantly, in writing an assembler program, I came up with assembly code<br>"templates" that would do a standard "if then else" or another template for a standard while loop<br>etc. Learning the representation of one of these levels of organization in the other was<br>fundamental to a solid complete grasp of what was going on and what would be possible or<br>advisable.</p><p>2. I went upwards, realizing that the undisciplined use of gotos in the basic would be bad, as<br>programs got bigger, so I should create standard if then else constructs (copy-paste templates again)<br>and use of gosub statements to reduce the size and complexity of each block of code etc. So<br>I taught myself the "why"s of structured programming from first principles and painful frustration<br>with long complex unstructured "goto" basic programs.</p><p>Eventually in University, we went all the way down to transistors as logic gates, and TTL NAND/NOR gates, and building up to<br>structured programs based on combining those together.</p><p>And we went all the way up to LISP and Prolog, and modules with interfaces, and the beginnings of O-O.</p><p>I would recommend a similar bottom up approach for someone to full appreciate what they are working with, and<br>what its fundamental limitations and quality dimensions might be.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I learned with old Apple II + Basic.It had a crucial fun aspect in that it could control the coloured graphics and the speaker tones.But more importantly , the goto statements made it sort of clear the step by step sequentialevaluation that the computer was doing of your language statements .
Without that mental modelof the program counter going over the statements , it 's all going to remain " magic " .After those initial clumsy Basic programs , I added two different things , and I think both areessential.1 .
I went downwards , and studied how the assembly language and machine languageand memory bytes/words etc.worked ( and kind of how they related to the high-level basic statements and variables etc.And most importantly , in writing an assembler program , I came up with assembly code " templates " that would do a standard " if then else " or another template for a standard while loopetc .
Learning the representation of one of these levels of organization in the other wasfundamental to a solid complete grasp of what was going on and what would be possible oradvisable.2 .
I went upwards , realizing that the undisciplined use of gotos in the basic would be bad , asprograms got bigger , so I should create standard if then else constructs ( copy-paste templates again ) and use of gosub statements to reduce the size and complexity of each block of code etc .
SoI taught myself the " why " s of structured programming from first principles and painful frustrationwith long complex unstructured " goto " basic programs.Eventually in University , we went all the way down to transistors as logic gates , and TTL NAND/NOR gates , and building up tostructured programs based on combining those together.And we went all the way up to LISP and Prolog , and modules with interfaces , and the beginnings of O-O.I would recommend a similar bottom up approach for someone to full appreciate what they are working with , andwhat its fundamental limitations and quality dimensions might be .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I learned with old Apple II+ Basic.It had a crucial fun aspect in that it could control the coloured graphics and the speaker tones.But more importantly, the goto statements made it sort of clear the step by step sequentialevaluation that the computer was doing of your language statements.
Without that mental modelof the program counter going over the statements, it's all going to remain "magic".After those initial clumsy Basic programs, I added two different things, and I think both areessential.1.
I went downwards, and studied how the assembly language and machine languageand memory bytes/words etc.worked (and kind of how they related to the high-level basic statements and variables etc.And most importantly, in writing an assembler program, I came up with assembly code"templates" that would do a standard "if then else" or another template for a standard while loopetc.
Learning the representation of one of these levels of organization in the other wasfundamental to a solid complete grasp of what was going on and what would be possible oradvisable.2.
I went upwards, realizing that the undisciplined use of gotos in the basic would be bad, asprograms got bigger, so I should create standard if then else constructs (copy-paste templates again)and use of gosub statements to reduce the size and complexity of each block of code etc.
SoI taught myself the "why"s of structured programming from first principles and painful frustrationwith long complex unstructured "goto" basic programs.Eventually in University, we went all the way down to transistors as logic gates, and TTL NAND/NOR gates, and building up tostructured programs based on combining those together.And we went all the way up to LISP and Prolog, and modules with interfaces, and the beginnings of O-O.I would recommend a similar bottom up approach for someone to full appreciate what they are working with, andwhat its fundamental limitations and quality dimensions might be.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566582</id>
	<title>game programming is the way to go</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261917300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been teaching elementary and middle school kids game programming since 2003. It is a great introduction to programming and the kids love it. Trying to teach a command line interface language to a 12 year old will get boring. They need to see their goals. Check out www.tektoma.com. Teaches kids game programming through video tutorials.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been teaching elementary and middle school kids game programming since 2003 .
It is a great introduction to programming and the kids love it .
Trying to teach a command line interface language to a 12 year old will get boring .
They need to see their goals .
Check out www.tektoma.com .
Teaches kids game programming through video tutorials .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been teaching elementary and middle school kids game programming since 2003.
It is a great introduction to programming and the kids love it.
Trying to teach a command line interface language to a 12 year old will get boring.
They need to see their goals.
Check out www.tektoma.com.
Teaches kids game programming through video tutorials.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567680</id>
	<title>Short and sweet</title>
	<author>Kagetsuki</author>
	<datestamp>1261927320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Programming is a tool. Find out WHAT he wants to make and choose the language (and libraries) that would be best to achieve that. The quicker he can get some gratification and see any spec of what he wants to make come up on the screen the quicker he will want to do more. Once he starts getting into it THEN start getting into the "why" and "how". The key to teaching anyone anything is to 1. Show them the value of the skill. 2. Show them the gratification of using and achieving something with that skill.<br>
<br>
As for a "beginner" language, languages that are made just to teach concepts and have limited practicality should be avoided in my opinion. If he can handle learning to program he can handle learning to program in C. Don't discount straight up Assembler either, not on the PC but rather for embedded applications like MicroControllers. Getting an LED to flash on a board is pretty easy and can be done inexpensively and simply if you have the right tools (look into AVR or H8, you can be up and running in under 100USD/10,000JPY). Say he wants to do 3D game programming or simulation; more than the language is the technology - straight OpenGL lets you do things like transformations, rotations, etc. without having to know how to build a matrix or what an affine transformation is, yet if you get more and more into it you can do your own matrixes as you please and introduce things like shaders etc. Libraries like (Free)GLUT will get you up and running demos in no time and samples are plentiful, and once you want more SFML will get you up and building full applications with no nonsense. In Java there is JOGL as well, but getting canvases set up and contexts and blah blah blah is something you may want to do for him at first if you choose JOGL as the underlying concepts are a bit too deep for a beginner.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Programming is a tool .
Find out WHAT he wants to make and choose the language ( and libraries ) that would be best to achieve that .
The quicker he can get some gratification and see any spec of what he wants to make come up on the screen the quicker he will want to do more .
Once he starts getting into it THEN start getting into the " why " and " how " .
The key to teaching anyone anything is to 1 .
Show them the value of the skill .
2. Show them the gratification of using and achieving something with that skill .
As for a " beginner " language , languages that are made just to teach concepts and have limited practicality should be avoided in my opinion .
If he can handle learning to program he can handle learning to program in C. Do n't discount straight up Assembler either , not on the PC but rather for embedded applications like MicroControllers .
Getting an LED to flash on a board is pretty easy and can be done inexpensively and simply if you have the right tools ( look into AVR or H8 , you can be up and running in under 100USD/10,000JPY ) .
Say he wants to do 3D game programming or simulation ; more than the language is the technology - straight OpenGL lets you do things like transformations , rotations , etc .
without having to know how to build a matrix or what an affine transformation is , yet if you get more and more into it you can do your own matrixes as you please and introduce things like shaders etc .
Libraries like ( Free ) GLUT will get you up and running demos in no time and samples are plentiful , and once you want more SFML will get you up and building full applications with no nonsense .
In Java there is JOGL as well , but getting canvases set up and contexts and blah blah blah is something you may want to do for him at first if you choose JOGL as the underlying concepts are a bit too deep for a beginner .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Programming is a tool.
Find out WHAT he wants to make and choose the language (and libraries) that would be best to achieve that.
The quicker he can get some gratification and see any spec of what he wants to make come up on the screen the quicker he will want to do more.
Once he starts getting into it THEN start getting into the "why" and "how".
The key to teaching anyone anything is to 1.
Show them the value of the skill.
2. Show them the gratification of using and achieving something with that skill.
As for a "beginner" language, languages that are made just to teach concepts and have limited practicality should be avoided in my opinion.
If he can handle learning to program he can handle learning to program in C. Don't discount straight up Assembler either, not on the PC but rather for embedded applications like MicroControllers.
Getting an LED to flash on a board is pretty easy and can be done inexpensively and simply if you have the right tools (look into AVR or H8, you can be up and running in under 100USD/10,000JPY).
Say he wants to do 3D game programming or simulation; more than the language is the technology - straight OpenGL lets you do things like transformations, rotations, etc.
without having to know how to build a matrix or what an affine transformation is, yet if you get more and more into it you can do your own matrixes as you please and introduce things like shaders etc.
Libraries like (Free)GLUT will get you up and running demos in no time and samples are plentiful, and once you want more SFML will get you up and building full applications with no nonsense.
In Java there is JOGL as well, but getting canvases set up and contexts and blah blah blah is something you may want to do for him at first if you choose JOGL as the underlying concepts are a bit too deep for a beginner.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568526</id>
	<title>Re:Ease in with scratch</title>
	<author>JetTredmont</author>
	<datestamp>1261938840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would agree with Scratch as well.  We ended up going with Alice for our 13-year-old, as the 3D interactions seemed more her style, but the social networking aspect of Scratch is a really powerful point in its favor.</p><p>For those too lazy to click the <a href="http://scratch.mit.edu/" title="mit.edu" rel="nofollow">link</a> [mit.edu], Scratch is a Smalltalk-style language wrapped in a graphical shell which makes it impossible to create syntax errors (you drag/drop code snippets and pick arguments from drop-down lists) and very easy to create simple 2D graphics and interactive apps.  It also allows the programmer to post his creation on the Web for other Scratch users to download and improve on, and of course allows him to take someone else's fully-formed app and tweak it to his liking.</p><p>The only downside I see is that there isn't much of a "natural" next step once you hit the ceiling of its capabilities.  But then, by that time there's a good chance your brother will have decided he likes this programming thing enough to invest some time and abstract thought in Python or whatever, or that it's not really worth all the fuss.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would agree with Scratch as well .
We ended up going with Alice for our 13-year-old , as the 3D interactions seemed more her style , but the social networking aspect of Scratch is a really powerful point in its favor.For those too lazy to click the link [ mit.edu ] , Scratch is a Smalltalk-style language wrapped in a graphical shell which makes it impossible to create syntax errors ( you drag/drop code snippets and pick arguments from drop-down lists ) and very easy to create simple 2D graphics and interactive apps .
It also allows the programmer to post his creation on the Web for other Scratch users to download and improve on , and of course allows him to take someone else 's fully-formed app and tweak it to his liking.The only downside I see is that there is n't much of a " natural " next step once you hit the ceiling of its capabilities .
But then , by that time there 's a good chance your brother will have decided he likes this programming thing enough to invest some time and abstract thought in Python or whatever , or that it 's not really worth all the fuss .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would agree with Scratch as well.
We ended up going with Alice for our 13-year-old, as the 3D interactions seemed more her style, but the social networking aspect of Scratch is a really powerful point in its favor.For those too lazy to click the link [mit.edu], Scratch is a Smalltalk-style language wrapped in a graphical shell which makes it impossible to create syntax errors (you drag/drop code snippets and pick arguments from drop-down lists) and very easy to create simple 2D graphics and interactive apps.
It also allows the programmer to post his creation on the Web for other Scratch users to download and improve on, and of course allows him to take someone else's fully-formed app and tweak it to his liking.The only downside I see is that there isn't much of a "natural" next step once you hit the ceiling of its capabilities.
But then, by that time there's a good chance your brother will have decided he likes this programming thing enough to invest some time and abstract thought in Python or whatever, or that it's not really worth all the fuss.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565016</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565846</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261911060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Scratch is a visual programming language from MIT with object-oriented structure and instant ability to create a new graphical  game. I used it to teach a homeschooling class with 10 and 12 year olds, and they were way ahead of my detailed knowledge by the third class. Then some of the students headed into Python with me as a next step.</p><p>Evidently the new Android Creator from Google will look a lot like the Scratch interface. Strongly recommend it!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Scratch is a visual programming language from MIT with object-oriented structure and instant ability to create a new graphical game .
I used it to teach a homeschooling class with 10 and 12 year olds , and they were way ahead of my detailed knowledge by the third class .
Then some of the students headed into Python with me as a next step.Evidently the new Android Creator from Google will look a lot like the Scratch interface .
Strongly recommend it !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Scratch is a visual programming language from MIT with object-oriented structure and instant ability to create a new graphical  game.
I used it to teach a homeschooling class with 10 and 12 year olds, and they were way ahead of my detailed knowledge by the third class.
Then some of the students headed into Python with me as a next step.Evidently the new Android Creator from Google will look a lot like the Scratch interface.
Strongly recommend it!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570698</id>
	<title>I'm using K&amp;R</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262013780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>With the right book a competent person can learn the fundamentals of programming in the C language. After programming in Commodore BASIC and 6502 Assembly Language, using pokes and peeks initially, I moved on a teach myself FORTRAN and C. The "C Programming Guide, 2nd Edition" written by Jack J. Purdum still has a place on my bookshelf after more than 20 years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>With the right book a competent person can learn the fundamentals of programming in the C language .
After programming in Commodore BASIC and 6502 Assembly Language , using pokes and peeks initially , I moved on a teach myself FORTRAN and C. The " C Programming Guide , 2nd Edition " written by Jack J. Purdum still has a place on my bookshelf after more than 20 years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>With the right book a competent person can learn the fundamentals of programming in the C language.
After programming in Commodore BASIC and 6502 Assembly Language, using pokes and peeks initially, I moved on a teach myself FORTRAN and C. The "C Programming Guide, 2nd Edition" written by Jack J. Purdum still has a place on my bookshelf after more than 20 years.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564962</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565716</id>
	<title>Re:Python</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261909740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you try python I'd suggest you to skim the pygame tutorial, then teach him the basics of python, let him learn the details and more obscure features while writing his own games.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you try python I 'd suggest you to skim the pygame tutorial , then teach him the basics of python , let him learn the details and more obscure features while writing his own games .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you try python I'd suggest you to skim the pygame tutorial, then teach him the basics of python, let him learn the details and more obscure features while writing his own games.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565912</id>
	<title>What does he want to do?</title>
	<author>hedrick</author>
	<datestamp>1261911540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd start by talking about possibilities with him. Let him decide what he wants to do and get a sense of how much time he's willing to put into it. I mentored someone starting at about that age. He did VB.net for a few months, did a project using it as an OO language, and then moved to Java. But his idea of a simple project is a Swing client talking to a multithreaded server with a database behind it. He made all the decisions on project and language. That may be an unusual situation, but I'd still let the kid make as many of the decisions as possible. Let him see some examples of a few likely candidates, and talk about what he wants to do. Scratch sounds really neat if we wants to play with graphics as quickly as possible. But at 12 I probably would have found it a little bit insulting. If he wants to tinker with IT infrastructure, Java is probably a better starting point,</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd start by talking about possibilities with him .
Let him decide what he wants to do and get a sense of how much time he 's willing to put into it .
I mentored someone starting at about that age .
He did VB.net for a few months , did a project using it as an OO language , and then moved to Java .
But his idea of a simple project is a Swing client talking to a multithreaded server with a database behind it .
He made all the decisions on project and language .
That may be an unusual situation , but I 'd still let the kid make as many of the decisions as possible .
Let him see some examples of a few likely candidates , and talk about what he wants to do .
Scratch sounds really neat if we wants to play with graphics as quickly as possible .
But at 12 I probably would have found it a little bit insulting .
If he wants to tinker with IT infrastructure , Java is probably a better starting point,</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd start by talking about possibilities with him.
Let him decide what he wants to do and get a sense of how much time he's willing to put into it.
I mentored someone starting at about that age.
He did VB.net for a few months, did a project using it as an OO language, and then moved to Java.
But his idea of a simple project is a Swing client talking to a multithreaded server with a database behind it.
He made all the decisions on project and language.
That may be an unusual situation, but I'd still let the kid make as many of the decisions as possible.
Let him see some examples of a few likely candidates, and talk about what he wants to do.
Scratch sounds really neat if we wants to play with graphics as quickly as possible.
But at 12 I probably would have found it a little bit insulting.
If he wants to tinker with IT infrastructure, Java is probably a better starting point,</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565204</id>
	<title>Let him do it on his own !</title>
	<author>burni2</author>
	<datestamp>1261905900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's the truth like you did, like you gathered all the pieces together to write programs. It's best done in his own way and pace of learning.</p><p>What you can do, is to assist him, assisting is someway different from teaching<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:) keep that in mind.</p><p>Give him a selection and let him choose, or go with him to a bookstore.</p><p>And if he wants c#/c++ let him buy a book (bad we had xmas) he can download the express edt of visual studio on his own.</p><p>Btw. for "Pascal" there is Turbo Delphi, given away at no cost from Borland/Inprise/Borland/Whatsoeverjustthemakersofdelphi, no real draw backs known, except some strange stuff nobody's using<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's the truth like you did , like you gathered all the pieces together to write programs .
It 's best done in his own way and pace of learning.What you can do , is to assist him , assisting is someway different from teaching : ) keep that in mind.Give him a selection and let him choose , or go with him to a bookstore.And if he wants c # /c + + let him buy a book ( bad we had xmas ) he can download the express edt of visual studio on his own.Btw .
for " Pascal " there is Turbo Delphi , given away at no cost from Borland/Inprise/Borland/Whatsoeverjustthemakersofdelphi , no real draw backs known , except some strange stuff nobody 's using ; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's the truth like you did, like you gathered all the pieces together to write programs.
It's best done in his own way and pace of learning.What you can do, is to assist him, assisting is someway different from teaching :) keep that in mind.Give him a selection and let him choose, or go with him to a bookstore.And if he wants c#/c++ let him buy a book (bad we had xmas) he can download the express edt of visual studio on his own.Btw.
for "Pascal" there is Turbo Delphi, given away at no cost from Borland/Inprise/Borland/Whatsoeverjustthemakersofdelphi, no real draw backs known, except some strange stuff nobody's using ;)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568228</id>
	<title>Basic Stamp board of Education or BoeBot kit</title>
	<author>ThePawArmy</author>
	<datestamp>1261933920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Look at one of the Parallax.com basic stamp board of education kits or a BoeBot kit. The manuals that come with the kits are really well written and teach not only introduction to programming but also a bit of electronics. It's one thing to teach a kid how to write a program to move a dot on the screen but watch what happens when you teach them how to write a program to move a robot around.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Look at one of the Parallax.com basic stamp board of education kits or a BoeBot kit .
The manuals that come with the kits are really well written and teach not only introduction to programming but also a bit of electronics .
It 's one thing to teach a kid how to write a program to move a dot on the screen but watch what happens when you teach them how to write a program to move a robot around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look at one of the Parallax.com basic stamp board of education kits or a BoeBot kit.
The manuals that come with the kits are really well written and teach not only introduction to programming but also a bit of electronics.
It's one thing to teach a kid how to write a program to move a dot on the screen but watch what happens when you teach them how to write a program to move a robot around.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566542</id>
	<title>Alice</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261917060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://alice.org/" title="alice.org" rel="nofollow">http://alice.org/</a> [alice.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //alice.org/ [ alice.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://alice.org/ [alice.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565050</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>johnlcallaway</author>
	<datestamp>1261905060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Great advice! I also tried to teach my son to program, but he wasn't interested. I think the 'key' is to find something he is interested in that he has to learn to program to do it.  Robotics comes to mind. My first language was also basic. My first program was a simple program go plot quadratic equations on graph paper for extra credit in calculus class. My second program was a program to hack passwords because I didn't have high enough priority to run things on the computer. I had a 'reason' to code beyond learning. I learned to code to solve a problem.
<br> <br>
Use the project to select the language, not the other way around. I too tried C++, but because my first program was a Windows GUI, it was hopeless. I then took an online class that focused on more batch-oriented homework, and it was a breeze. Use something that can have lots of small successes instead of one huge result. It's easier to cope with a small setback than a large one, and he will be less likely to get discouraged once he can start growing his skill set and see that growth.
<br> <br>
Start with the simple stuff<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... basic syntax and if/then/else type logic. Then add some methods or functions. Toss in some for/while loops. Build a solid base that can be used going forward before you get into heavy stuff like operator overloading or inheritance. Syntax first, learn how to compile or run, learn how to debug simple errors. Then move on to more advanced concepts.
<br> <br>
And for gods sake, find something that he doesn't need to worry about libraries or a debugger to figure it out. Show him how to use printf statements to trace and debug programs FIRST before introducing him to debuggers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Great advice !
I also tried to teach my son to program , but he was n't interested .
I think the 'key ' is to find something he is interested in that he has to learn to program to do it .
Robotics comes to mind .
My first language was also basic .
My first program was a simple program go plot quadratic equations on graph paper for extra credit in calculus class .
My second program was a program to hack passwords because I did n't have high enough priority to run things on the computer .
I had a 'reason ' to code beyond learning .
I learned to code to solve a problem .
Use the project to select the language , not the other way around .
I too tried C + + , but because my first program was a Windows GUI , it was hopeless .
I then took an online class that focused on more batch-oriented homework , and it was a breeze .
Use something that can have lots of small successes instead of one huge result .
It 's easier to cope with a small setback than a large one , and he will be less likely to get discouraged once he can start growing his skill set and see that growth .
Start with the simple stuff ... basic syntax and if/then/else type logic .
Then add some methods or functions .
Toss in some for/while loops .
Build a solid base that can be used going forward before you get into heavy stuff like operator overloading or inheritance .
Syntax first , learn how to compile or run , learn how to debug simple errors .
Then move on to more advanced concepts .
And for gods sake , find something that he does n't need to worry about libraries or a debugger to figure it out .
Show him how to use printf statements to trace and debug programs FIRST before introducing him to debuggers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Great advice!
I also tried to teach my son to program, but he wasn't interested.
I think the 'key' is to find something he is interested in that he has to learn to program to do it.
Robotics comes to mind.
My first language was also basic.
My first program was a simple program go plot quadratic equations on graph paper for extra credit in calculus class.
My second program was a program to hack passwords because I didn't have high enough priority to run things on the computer.
I had a 'reason' to code beyond learning.
I learned to code to solve a problem.
Use the project to select the language, not the other way around.
I too tried C++, but because my first program was a Windows GUI, it was hopeless.
I then took an online class that focused on more batch-oriented homework, and it was a breeze.
Use something that can have lots of small successes instead of one huge result.
It's easier to cope with a small setback than a large one, and he will be less likely to get discouraged once he can start growing his skill set and see that growth.
Start with the simple stuff ... basic syntax and if/then/else type logic.
Then add some methods or functions.
Toss in some for/while loops.
Build a solid base that can be used going forward before you get into heavy stuff like operator overloading or inheritance.
Syntax first, learn how to compile or run, learn how to debug simple errors.
Then move on to more advanced concepts.
And for gods sake, find something that he doesn't need to worry about libraries or a debugger to figure it out.
Show him how to use printf statements to trace and debug programs FIRST before introducing him to debuggers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565172</id>
	<title>Personal Experience</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261905720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't know if I am a good example, but I started out in 6th grade with a cheap program built for kids that used BASIC to build games.  It included short little skits with cartoons to teach each individual command and including syntax.  It was not very useful and hard to deal with at the time, but it laid the path for basic programming flow.  Also that same year I discovered my sister's graphing calculator, which I then also started programming in. These were all very basic, but my sister appreciated the help with her tests in algebra.</p><p>After this primal sprites builder and programming IDE I moved along to a book that I found of my father's, which was Learn Visual Basic in 24 Hours.  I instantly installed the software and began reading. It wasn't until I started browsing the internet did I learn a lot more.  The book was very limited on what it taught.  A big part that helped me in my programming discovery was IRC.  At 13 I was all over IRC where I found a lot of information. Beyond anything that a book could ever hold.</p><p>Once I hit High School I moved up to C/C++ and eventually started programming for our school's FIRST robotics team. This is where I learned a lot of electronics and engineering as well. I ventured off a lot in electrical engineering. Anyways, C++ led to every other programming language you can think of. (i.e. Perl, PHP, Java, SQL, Python,Ruby)</p><p>So to answer the question: Possibly BASIC might be a good route.  QBasic would be good. Another option would be Ruby or Python.  These are very simple and could be dissected and understood by any 12-year-old, with a little help that is.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know if I am a good example , but I started out in 6th grade with a cheap program built for kids that used BASIC to build games .
It included short little skits with cartoons to teach each individual command and including syntax .
It was not very useful and hard to deal with at the time , but it laid the path for basic programming flow .
Also that same year I discovered my sister 's graphing calculator , which I then also started programming in .
These were all very basic , but my sister appreciated the help with her tests in algebra.After this primal sprites builder and programming IDE I moved along to a book that I found of my father 's , which was Learn Visual Basic in 24 Hours .
I instantly installed the software and began reading .
It was n't until I started browsing the internet did I learn a lot more .
The book was very limited on what it taught .
A big part that helped me in my programming discovery was IRC .
At 13 I was all over IRC where I found a lot of information .
Beyond anything that a book could ever hold.Once I hit High School I moved up to C/C + + and eventually started programming for our school 's FIRST robotics team .
This is where I learned a lot of electronics and engineering as well .
I ventured off a lot in electrical engineering .
Anyways , C + + led to every other programming language you can think of .
( i.e. Perl , PHP , Java , SQL , Python,Ruby ) So to answer the question : Possibly BASIC might be a good route .
QBasic would be good .
Another option would be Ruby or Python .
These are very simple and could be dissected and understood by any 12-year-old , with a little help that is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know if I am a good example, but I started out in 6th grade with a cheap program built for kids that used BASIC to build games.
It included short little skits with cartoons to teach each individual command and including syntax.
It was not very useful and hard to deal with at the time, but it laid the path for basic programming flow.
Also that same year I discovered my sister's graphing calculator, which I then also started programming in.
These were all very basic, but my sister appreciated the help with her tests in algebra.After this primal sprites builder and programming IDE I moved along to a book that I found of my father's, which was Learn Visual Basic in 24 Hours.
I instantly installed the software and began reading.
It wasn't until I started browsing the internet did I learn a lot more.
The book was very limited on what it taught.
A big part that helped me in my programming discovery was IRC.
At 13 I was all over IRC where I found a lot of information.
Beyond anything that a book could ever hold.Once I hit High School I moved up to C/C++ and eventually started programming for our school's FIRST robotics team.
This is where I learned a lot of electronics and engineering as well.
I ventured off a lot in electrical engineering.
Anyways, C++ led to every other programming language you can think of.
(i.e. Perl, PHP, Java, SQL, Python,Ruby)So to answer the question: Possibly BASIC might be a good route.
QBasic would be good.
Another option would be Ruby or Python.
These are very simple and could be dissected and understood by any 12-year-old, with a little help that is.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564974</id>
	<title>It aint about a language...</title>
	<author>LibertineR</author>
	<datestamp>1261904580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Its about proper programing principles and procedures. <p>
Set him up with something where he can produce something cool, FAST, which will enforce best practices. Frankly, the IDE is more important than the language. Set him up to where he is asking "Why and How", not "what the fuck do I do now?"</p><p>
He'll need an idea of something to accomplish, and set out on a path to get it done. Learning programing without a specific goal, is another kind of hell. Make it about the 'Solution', then show him how to get there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Its about proper programing principles and procedures .
Set him up with something where he can produce something cool , FAST , which will enforce best practices .
Frankly , the IDE is more important than the language .
Set him up to where he is asking " Why and How " , not " what the fuck do I do now ?
" He 'll need an idea of something to accomplish , and set out on a path to get it done .
Learning programing without a specific goal , is another kind of hell .
Make it about the 'Solution ' , then show him how to get there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Its about proper programing principles and procedures.
Set him up with something where he can produce something cool, FAST, which will enforce best practices.
Frankly, the IDE is more important than the language.
Set him up to where he is asking "Why and How", not "what the fuck do I do now?
"
He'll need an idea of something to accomplish, and set out on a path to get it done.
Learning programing without a specific goal, is another kind of hell.
Make it about the 'Solution', then show him how to get there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565804</id>
	<title>Javascript.</title>
	<author>zippthorne</author>
	<datestamp>1261910580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Every computer that a 12 year old has access to has a ready-to-use javascript interpreter sitting right there on the desktop.  Probably several of them.  And they're all unrestricted enough to use for beginning exercises.</p><p>There may be more legible languages out there, and there are certainly better "learning languages." but Javascript has an attractive price and portability, and the child might be able to write something that is genuinely useful, and of course show off to the class.</p><p>You can't force programming on a 12-year old, it's hard enough "forcing" them to learn anything at all at school.  You just have to remove the barriers and let her find her own way.  Make sure to leave some "entry-level" books lying around and provide guidance when asked.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Every computer that a 12 year old has access to has a ready-to-use javascript interpreter sitting right there on the desktop .
Probably several of them .
And they 're all unrestricted enough to use for beginning exercises.There may be more legible languages out there , and there are certainly better " learning languages .
" but Javascript has an attractive price and portability , and the child might be able to write something that is genuinely useful , and of course show off to the class.You ca n't force programming on a 12-year old , it 's hard enough " forcing " them to learn anything at all at school .
You just have to remove the barriers and let her find her own way .
Make sure to leave some " entry-level " books lying around and provide guidance when asked .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Every computer that a 12 year old has access to has a ready-to-use javascript interpreter sitting right there on the desktop.
Probably several of them.
And they're all unrestricted enough to use for beginning exercises.There may be more legible languages out there, and there are certainly better "learning languages.
" but Javascript has an attractive price and portability, and the child might be able to write something that is genuinely useful, and of course show off to the class.You can't force programming on a 12-year old, it's hard enough "forcing" them to learn anything at all at school.
You just have to remove the barriers and let her find her own way.
Make sure to leave some "entry-level" books lying around and provide guidance when asked.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565970</id>
	<title>C/C++ is not a language</title>
	<author>johanatan</author>
	<datestamp>1261911960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>C is [for all intents and purposes] a proper subset of C++.  Knowledge of C does not imply knowledge of C++ (specifically its polymorphism, templates/meta-templates, etc).</htmltext>
<tokenext>C is [ for all intents and purposes ] a proper subset of C + + .
Knowledge of C does not imply knowledge of C + + ( specifically its polymorphism , templates/meta-templates , etc ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>C is [for all intents and purposes] a proper subset of C++.
Knowledge of C does not imply knowledge of C++ (specifically its polymorphism, templates/meta-templates, etc).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566740</id>
	<title>Just some points to consider</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261918860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Having learned to program largely on my own at age 10 (on a Sinclair Spectrum with 64k ram and a ROM-based BASIC interpreter), I might offer a few points. They need or need not apply. When I started, computers were few and far between. I can't imagine that he would be at the level where I started - surely he's at least picked up an Internet browser and knows about the Internet, instant messaging and the like.</p><p>1. The starting environment should be something simple and clean. It shouldn't get in the way of whatever it is you're trying to accomplish. Unless the kid actually wants to become a Linux hacker (and I mean this specifically), start with whatever he's familiar with. A console-based environment is fine, since he'll need to know about basic file management very early. But don't start off with shell scripting. It's not gonna hold his interest.</p><p>2. Pick something that gets results soon. One of my proudest accomplishments in that day just let you control an 'X' character on the screen in a 'text' video mode (back when the paradigm was QAOP nod WASD). It might seem trivial, but you actually need to know a lot of basic concepts to pull it off: processing user input (hence IF statements), variables (to store your position), and dealing with the screen. In fact, I remember an 'epiphany' I had when I realized that the statement "LET x = x + 1" is a valid and important device, and not mathematical nonsense. Unfortunately, we live in the age of intricate console games with HD graphics, so doing something like that would not get the same kick today.</p><p>3. If possible, find a 'project' that's easy to start off with, but can be readily extended - another important aspect of programming. Take the above example. Once you have that, you can add target objects on the screen to be picked up - and start keeping score. You can think about how to extend it to two players. You can add walls that you can't cross, or teleporters, or other ways to modify the available paths. Later on, you can add a monster chasing you - say making one move every time you make one, and think about how to make the monster smarter, especially once walls set in. At its most basic, this is the stuff games are made of.</p><p>4. One can learn by example. I used to have books that consisted of collections of short programs (10-30 lines of code) that solved various simple problems. Eventually, he can learn to incorporate those into his own programs as they get more complex.</p><p>5. Interacting with the OS, networking, and even basic memory management like malloc are advanced topics IMO, and should be glanced over at first. I would have also included Web technologies in this, but I'd expect a 12yo to know his way around the Internet. Still, I wouldn't start with HTML (unless you want to teach him scripting instead of programming). I don't know Javascript well enough to comment, but I'd start with a more standard programming language. In retrospect, I might be inclined to start with a language that requires variables to be declared, because it helps to organize your thinking at the start.</p><p>6. Even though one no longer needs to solve IRQ conflicts, knowledge of PC hardware is still important - not to mention useful since pretty soon one can make money with it working for a local shop or freelance. Eventually, one can touch on that too. The basics of PC hardware haven't changed that much over the years, beyond the shape of our expansion slots.</p><p>7. Really, the most important thing is to get his attention at first. If he's a bright kid, has a natural curiosity about things, and has an aptitude for logical problems, you just need to get him started and let nature take it course. However, if he's more interested in sports or chasing girls, there may not be much you can do. Not everyone needs to grow up a programmer, after all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Having learned to program largely on my own at age 10 ( on a Sinclair Spectrum with 64k ram and a ROM-based BASIC interpreter ) , I might offer a few points .
They need or need not apply .
When I started , computers were few and far between .
I ca n't imagine that he would be at the level where I started - surely he 's at least picked up an Internet browser and knows about the Internet , instant messaging and the like.1 .
The starting environment should be something simple and clean .
It should n't get in the way of whatever it is you 're trying to accomplish .
Unless the kid actually wants to become a Linux hacker ( and I mean this specifically ) , start with whatever he 's familiar with .
A console-based environment is fine , since he 'll need to know about basic file management very early .
But do n't start off with shell scripting .
It 's not gon na hold his interest.2 .
Pick something that gets results soon .
One of my proudest accomplishments in that day just let you control an 'X ' character on the screen in a 'text ' video mode ( back when the paradigm was QAOP nod WASD ) .
It might seem trivial , but you actually need to know a lot of basic concepts to pull it off : processing user input ( hence IF statements ) , variables ( to store your position ) , and dealing with the screen .
In fact , I remember an 'epiphany ' I had when I realized that the statement " LET x = x + 1 " is a valid and important device , and not mathematical nonsense .
Unfortunately , we live in the age of intricate console games with HD graphics , so doing something like that would not get the same kick today.3 .
If possible , find a 'project ' that 's easy to start off with , but can be readily extended - another important aspect of programming .
Take the above example .
Once you have that , you can add target objects on the screen to be picked up - and start keeping score .
You can think about how to extend it to two players .
You can add walls that you ca n't cross , or teleporters , or other ways to modify the available paths .
Later on , you can add a monster chasing you - say making one move every time you make one , and think about how to make the monster smarter , especially once walls set in .
At its most basic , this is the stuff games are made of.4 .
One can learn by example .
I used to have books that consisted of collections of short programs ( 10-30 lines of code ) that solved various simple problems .
Eventually , he can learn to incorporate those into his own programs as they get more complex.5 .
Interacting with the OS , networking , and even basic memory management like malloc are advanced topics IMO , and should be glanced over at first .
I would have also included Web technologies in this , but I 'd expect a 12yo to know his way around the Internet .
Still , I would n't start with HTML ( unless you want to teach him scripting instead of programming ) .
I do n't know Javascript well enough to comment , but I 'd start with a more standard programming language .
In retrospect , I might be inclined to start with a language that requires variables to be declared , because it helps to organize your thinking at the start.6 .
Even though one no longer needs to solve IRQ conflicts , knowledge of PC hardware is still important - not to mention useful since pretty soon one can make money with it working for a local shop or freelance .
Eventually , one can touch on that too .
The basics of PC hardware have n't changed that much over the years , beyond the shape of our expansion slots.7 .
Really , the most important thing is to get his attention at first .
If he 's a bright kid , has a natural curiosity about things , and has an aptitude for logical problems , you just need to get him started and let nature take it course .
However , if he 's more interested in sports or chasing girls , there may not be much you can do .
Not everyone needs to grow up a programmer , after all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having learned to program largely on my own at age 10 (on a Sinclair Spectrum with 64k ram and a ROM-based BASIC interpreter), I might offer a few points.
They need or need not apply.
When I started, computers were few and far between.
I can't imagine that he would be at the level where I started - surely he's at least picked up an Internet browser and knows about the Internet, instant messaging and the like.1.
The starting environment should be something simple and clean.
It shouldn't get in the way of whatever it is you're trying to accomplish.
Unless the kid actually wants to become a Linux hacker (and I mean this specifically), start with whatever he's familiar with.
A console-based environment is fine, since he'll need to know about basic file management very early.
But don't start off with shell scripting.
It's not gonna hold his interest.2.
Pick something that gets results soon.
One of my proudest accomplishments in that day just let you control an 'X' character on the screen in a 'text' video mode (back when the paradigm was QAOP nod WASD).
It might seem trivial, but you actually need to know a lot of basic concepts to pull it off: processing user input (hence IF statements), variables (to store your position), and dealing with the screen.
In fact, I remember an 'epiphany' I had when I realized that the statement "LET x = x + 1" is a valid and important device, and not mathematical nonsense.
Unfortunately, we live in the age of intricate console games with HD graphics, so doing something like that would not get the same kick today.3.
If possible, find a 'project' that's easy to start off with, but can be readily extended - another important aspect of programming.
Take the above example.
Once you have that, you can add target objects on the screen to be picked up - and start keeping score.
You can think about how to extend it to two players.
You can add walls that you can't cross, or teleporters, or other ways to modify the available paths.
Later on, you can add a monster chasing you - say making one move every time you make one, and think about how to make the monster smarter, especially once walls set in.
At its most basic, this is the stuff games are made of.4.
One can learn by example.
I used to have books that consisted of collections of short programs (10-30 lines of code) that solved various simple problems.
Eventually, he can learn to incorporate those into his own programs as they get more complex.5.
Interacting with the OS, networking, and even basic memory management like malloc are advanced topics IMO, and should be glanced over at first.
I would have also included Web technologies in this, but I'd expect a 12yo to know his way around the Internet.
Still, I wouldn't start with HTML (unless you want to teach him scripting instead of programming).
I don't know Javascript well enough to comment, but I'd start with a more standard programming language.
In retrospect, I might be inclined to start with a language that requires variables to be declared, because it helps to organize your thinking at the start.6.
Even though one no longer needs to solve IRQ conflicts, knowledge of PC hardware is still important - not to mention useful since pretty soon one can make money with it working for a local shop or freelance.
Eventually, one can touch on that too.
The basics of PC hardware haven't changed that much over the years, beyond the shape of our expansion slots.7.
Really, the most important thing is to get his attention at first.
If he's a bright kid, has a natural curiosity about things, and has an aptitude for logical problems, you just need to get him started and let nature take it course.
However, if he's more interested in sports or chasing girls, there may not be much you can do.
Not everyone needs to grow up a programmer, after all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568328</id>
	<title>Alice</title>
	<author>akayani</author>
	<datestamp>1261935360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>http://www.alice.org/<br><br>That's commonly used as a starting point. It's Java, but not as we know it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //www.alice.org/That 's commonly used as a starting point .
It 's Java , but not as we know it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://www.alice.org/That's commonly used as a starting point.
It's Java, but not as we know it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30574220</id>
	<title>The best language?</title>
	<author>tonyt3</author>
	<datestamp>1262030580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I remember once asking the best programmer I knew about which language he thought would be the best one for a particular problem I was working on.  He said that he thought the best language to use would be the one that I knew best.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I remember once asking the best programmer I knew about which language he thought would be the best one for a particular problem I was working on .
He said that he thought the best language to use would be the one that I knew best .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I remember once asking the best programmer I knew about which language he thought would be the best one for a particular problem I was working on.
He said that he thought the best language to use would be the one that I knew best.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567032</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261921080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Javascript -- plain and simple; java/c++ like syntax... can be written procedurally then addapted in to OO as he learns... and you can do some neat stuff (bouncing ball demo etc) with relative ease. Also it is ofcourse free and can be written on any computer without having to download and install compilers etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Javascript -- plain and simple ; java/c + + like syntax... can be written procedurally then addapted in to OO as he learns... and you can do some neat stuff ( bouncing ball demo etc ) with relative ease .
Also it is ofcourse free and can be written on any computer without having to download and install compilers etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Javascript -- plain and simple; java/c++ like syntax... can be written procedurally then addapted in to OO as he learns... and you can do some neat stuff (bouncing ball demo etc) with relative ease.
Also it is ofcourse free and can be written on any computer without having to download and install compilers etc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571856</id>
	<title>ActionScript</title>
	<author>CobaltBlueDW</author>
	<datestamp>1262019840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Python is a fair suggestion with something like pygame.  It has the upside of teaching them a language they can use in future endeavors, AND will seem interesting to a youngster by peaking their interest with graphics and sound.  How ever, there is some overhead to using pygame, and python's syntax isn't all that similar to other standard oop languages.</p><p>I'd suggest starting with a language that can easily offer graphics/sound/etc. for sandbox play, AND uses a syntax simular to the ECMA java-like standard.  I believe that will help with the transition to OOP C++.</p><p>ActionScript is probably the most enticing language you could teach to a youngin' since it is tide to a graphical editor.  If you start with AS2, you can skip all the complications and make a game by jamming a few small lines of code in strategic locations in a few minutes.  You can then continue to concentrating on key rudimentary ideas while making playable games, or extending a game by expanding on previous example.  You can slowly start bringing in proper structural elements that make make it more and more like AS3, until you basically ARE using AS3.</p><p>As languages go, AS3 has a very nice structure, so it's a good environment to teach proper practices. and it is easy to start AND complete projects that would actually seem interesting to a younger audiences.  As an interpreted language that also compiles, there's quite good error handling, both at compile time and during run-time.  Troubleshooting can be a major deterrent to a learner's progression, so useful error messages for all errors is important.  Also, having the ActionScript help bible embedded into the IDE is quite handy.</p><p>Downsides:<br>You need to buy the Flash Suite to get the proper experience out of it.<br>ActionScript isn't a very applicable language in that, you can't use it anywhere other than in Flash applets.<br>It doesn't have a very simple file IO system, which is often helpful in many teaching examples.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Python is a fair suggestion with something like pygame .
It has the upside of teaching them a language they can use in future endeavors , AND will seem interesting to a youngster by peaking their interest with graphics and sound .
How ever , there is some overhead to using pygame , and python 's syntax is n't all that similar to other standard oop languages.I 'd suggest starting with a language that can easily offer graphics/sound/etc .
for sandbox play , AND uses a syntax simular to the ECMA java-like standard .
I believe that will help with the transition to OOP C + + .ActionScript is probably the most enticing language you could teach to a youngin ' since it is tide to a graphical editor .
If you start with AS2 , you can skip all the complications and make a game by jamming a few small lines of code in strategic locations in a few minutes .
You can then continue to concentrating on key rudimentary ideas while making playable games , or extending a game by expanding on previous example .
You can slowly start bringing in proper structural elements that make make it more and more like AS3 , until you basically ARE using AS3.As languages go , AS3 has a very nice structure , so it 's a good environment to teach proper practices .
and it is easy to start AND complete projects that would actually seem interesting to a younger audiences .
As an interpreted language that also compiles , there 's quite good error handling , both at compile time and during run-time .
Troubleshooting can be a major deterrent to a learner 's progression , so useful error messages for all errors is important .
Also , having the ActionScript help bible embedded into the IDE is quite handy.Downsides : You need to buy the Flash Suite to get the proper experience out of it.ActionScript is n't a very applicable language in that , you ca n't use it anywhere other than in Flash applets.It does n't have a very simple file IO system , which is often helpful in many teaching examples .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Python is a fair suggestion with something like pygame.
It has the upside of teaching them a language they can use in future endeavors, AND will seem interesting to a youngster by peaking their interest with graphics and sound.
How ever, there is some overhead to using pygame, and python's syntax isn't all that similar to other standard oop languages.I'd suggest starting with a language that can easily offer graphics/sound/etc.
for sandbox play, AND uses a syntax simular to the ECMA java-like standard.
I believe that will help with the transition to OOP C++.ActionScript is probably the most enticing language you could teach to a youngin' since it is tide to a graphical editor.
If you start with AS2, you can skip all the complications and make a game by jamming a few small lines of code in strategic locations in a few minutes.
You can then continue to concentrating on key rudimentary ideas while making playable games, or extending a game by expanding on previous example.
You can slowly start bringing in proper structural elements that make make it more and more like AS3, until you basically ARE using AS3.As languages go, AS3 has a very nice structure, so it's a good environment to teach proper practices.
and it is easy to start AND complete projects that would actually seem interesting to a younger audiences.
As an interpreted language that also compiles, there's quite good error handling, both at compile time and during run-time.
Troubleshooting can be a major deterrent to a learner's progression, so useful error messages for all errors is important.
Also, having the ActionScript help bible embedded into the IDE is quite handy.Downsides:You need to buy the Flash Suite to get the proper experience out of it.ActionScript isn't a very applicable language in that, you can't use it anywhere other than in Flash applets.It doesn't have a very simple file IO system, which is often helpful in many teaching examples.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30577000</id>
	<title>Just learn C if you want to learn C</title>
	<author>phorgan1</author>
	<datestamp>1262002740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why not learn C?  It's as easy to learn as basic and pascal or python, or php.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why not learn C ?
It 's as easy to learn as basic and pascal or python , or php .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why not learn C?
It's as easy to learn as basic and pascal or python, or php.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565888</id>
	<title>TI Calculators</title>
	<author>pozitron969</author>
	<datestamp>1261911360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is how I initially got started with programming.  We were required to purchase on of the TI-8X models of calculators for my high school math class.  They come with a builtin BASIC language for programming.  The language is simple and you can either use menus to add statements or type them.  If you brother turns out to be really into programming he also can do as far as writing assembly language programs.  In the more advanced models they have simplistic GUI elements for building windows, dropdowns and the like.  It is a nice way to spruce up your program with little hassle.

In addition to the programming language you have the benefit of access to the mathematics capabilities of the calculator.  Everything from statistics, equations,   This is very handy when you want to solve an equation in a program but may not be ready to write your own subroutine to do that.  They have limited graphics capabilites, only grey-scale graphics and no sound.  I think that as a first excursion into games and programming those items are fun but not required.  Lastly I believe one of the strongest reasons to get something like this would be that it is portable.  No need to bring a laptop, inverter, etc...  I spent many hours in the back of my parents car typing away on my calculator.  Porting games or even utilities for my math and physics classes.  It was about either having fun or solving a problem that was important to me.

My personal favorite is the TI-Voyage 200.  It has a qwerty keyboard, larger screen and does symbolic math.  Chances are if you brother is going to take a math class beyond Geometry he will probably want to have one of these anyway.

Best of Luck!</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is how I initially got started with programming .
We were required to purchase on of the TI-8X models of calculators for my high school math class .
They come with a builtin BASIC language for programming .
The language is simple and you can either use menus to add statements or type them .
If you brother turns out to be really into programming he also can do as far as writing assembly language programs .
In the more advanced models they have simplistic GUI elements for building windows , dropdowns and the like .
It is a nice way to spruce up your program with little hassle .
In addition to the programming language you have the benefit of access to the mathematics capabilities of the calculator .
Everything from statistics , equations , This is very handy when you want to solve an equation in a program but may not be ready to write your own subroutine to do that .
They have limited graphics capabilites , only grey-scale graphics and no sound .
I think that as a first excursion into games and programming those items are fun but not required .
Lastly I believe one of the strongest reasons to get something like this would be that it is portable .
No need to bring a laptop , inverter , etc... I spent many hours in the back of my parents car typing away on my calculator .
Porting games or even utilities for my math and physics classes .
It was about either having fun or solving a problem that was important to me .
My personal favorite is the TI-Voyage 200 .
It has a qwerty keyboard , larger screen and does symbolic math .
Chances are if you brother is going to take a math class beyond Geometry he will probably want to have one of these anyway .
Best of Luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is how I initially got started with programming.
We were required to purchase on of the TI-8X models of calculators for my high school math class.
They come with a builtin BASIC language for programming.
The language is simple and you can either use menus to add statements or type them.
If you brother turns out to be really into programming he also can do as far as writing assembly language programs.
In the more advanced models they have simplistic GUI elements for building windows, dropdowns and the like.
It is a nice way to spruce up your program with little hassle.
In addition to the programming language you have the benefit of access to the mathematics capabilities of the calculator.
Everything from statistics, equations,   This is very handy when you want to solve an equation in a program but may not be ready to write your own subroutine to do that.
They have limited graphics capabilites, only grey-scale graphics and no sound.
I think that as a first excursion into games and programming those items are fun but not required.
Lastly I believe one of the strongest reasons to get something like this would be that it is portable.
No need to bring a laptop, inverter, etc...  I spent many hours in the back of my parents car typing away on my calculator.
Porting games or even utilities for my math and physics classes.
It was about either having fun or solving a problem that was important to me.
My personal favorite is the TI-Voyage 200.
It has a qwerty keyboard, larger screen and does symbolic math.
Chances are if you brother is going to take a math class beyond Geometry he will probably want to have one of these anyway.
Best of Luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565758</id>
	<title>Need more info</title>
	<author>obarthelemy</author>
	<datestamp>1261910160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There really is not enough info to give you advice:</p><p>- has the kid voiced any interest at all, or are you more or less forcing that on him ? In the first instance you may go relatively hardcore, or at least art for art's sake, sooner, in the second case, you need a bit more demagogy.<br>- is he interested in scientific stuff in general ?<br>- does he do anything on a PC that may get him hooked, like play on a macro-able game, draw...<br>- does he play with any programmable stuff, like Lego Mindstorm...<br>- have you ever done anything else with him, or are you just trying to hook him up to so that he'll leave you alone with that "baseball" thing ?<br>-<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There really is not enough info to give you advice : - has the kid voiced any interest at all , or are you more or less forcing that on him ?
In the first instance you may go relatively hardcore , or at least art for art 's sake , sooner , in the second case , you need a bit more demagogy.- is he interested in scientific stuff in general ? - does he do anything on a PC that may get him hooked , like play on a macro-able game , draw...- does he play with any programmable stuff , like Lego Mindstorm...- have you ever done anything else with him , or are you just trying to hook him up to so that he 'll leave you alone with that " baseball " thing ? - .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There really is not enough info to give you advice:- has the kid voiced any interest at all, or are you more or less forcing that on him ?
In the first instance you may go relatively hardcore, or at least art for art's sake, sooner, in the second case, you need a bit more demagogy.- is he interested in scientific stuff in general ?- does he do anything on a PC that may get him hooked, like play on a macro-able game, draw...- does he play with any programmable stuff, like Lego Mindstorm...- have you ever done anything else with him, or are you just trying to hook him up to so that he'll leave you alone with that "baseball" thing ?- ...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567134</id>
	<title>WTF</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261922100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"I'd love to get low-level with him"</p><p>Is this the new "smackdown"?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" I 'd love to get low-level with him " Is this the new " smackdown " ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"I'd love to get low-level with him"Is this the new "smackdown"?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569416</id>
	<title>Anything with instant visible results</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261998120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Provided that he is actually interested in programming, basically any language with visible results will do, as long as it's not too simple or restrictive.</p><p>Lego Robotics would be a good idea. Robots are fun. Although I as a kid hated the puzzle block style of scripting in Lego Mindstorms.<br>Things like Pygame and gamemaker are also a good choice, maybe even flash if you have the bucks for it.<br>Things like HTML are not really programming, but it does teach how a computer requires very specific instructions and coupled with javascript it is very easy to see results and it's easy to learn.</p><p>Another interesting thing is Second Life. In there you can create objects out of primitive shapes and have them move, change appearance, follow their owner, talk, all kinds of things. I've seen some pretty amazing stuff there. It uses LSL which is an event based language and is a bit similar to javascript and quite easy to learn.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Provided that he is actually interested in programming , basically any language with visible results will do , as long as it 's not too simple or restrictive.Lego Robotics would be a good idea .
Robots are fun .
Although I as a kid hated the puzzle block style of scripting in Lego Mindstorms.Things like Pygame and gamemaker are also a good choice , maybe even flash if you have the bucks for it.Things like HTML are not really programming , but it does teach how a computer requires very specific instructions and coupled with javascript it is very easy to see results and it 's easy to learn.Another interesting thing is Second Life .
In there you can create objects out of primitive shapes and have them move , change appearance , follow their owner , talk , all kinds of things .
I 've seen some pretty amazing stuff there .
It uses LSL which is an event based language and is a bit similar to javascript and quite easy to learn .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Provided that he is actually interested in programming, basically any language with visible results will do, as long as it's not too simple or restrictive.Lego Robotics would be a good idea.
Robots are fun.
Although I as a kid hated the puzzle block style of scripting in Lego Mindstorms.Things like Pygame and gamemaker are also a good choice, maybe even flash if you have the bucks for it.Things like HTML are not really programming, but it does teach how a computer requires very specific instructions and coupled with javascript it is very easy to see results and it's easy to learn.Another interesting thing is Second Life.
In there you can create objects out of primitive shapes and have them move, change appearance, follow their owner, talk, all kinds of things.
I've seen some pretty amazing stuff there.
It uses LSL which is an event based language and is a bit similar to javascript and quite easy to learn.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567410</id>
	<title>The language does not matter.</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1261924560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You should get a hint about this by reading the myriad of replies to this topic (I have counted at least 10 different suggested languages, which tell you all what you need to know: the chosen language is frankly immaterial to the objective).</p><p>I would suggest that you use a language you are familiar with, you are bound to teach somebody better if you understand the tool used fully.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You should get a hint about this by reading the myriad of replies to this topic ( I have counted at least 10 different suggested languages , which tell you all what you need to know : the chosen language is frankly immaterial to the objective ) .I would suggest that you use a language you are familiar with , you are bound to teach somebody better if you understand the tool used fully .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You should get a hint about this by reading the myriad of replies to this topic (I have counted at least 10 different suggested languages, which tell you all what you need to know: the chosen language is frankly immaterial to the objective).I would suggest that you use a language you are familiar with, you are bound to teach somebody better if you understand the tool used fully.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30575734</id>
	<title>Re:plain C, python, or ruby</title>
	<author>steveha</author>
	<datestamp>1261995240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>IMHO everything is wrong with C as first language. It gives you dreadful programming style and is not a right tool for application programming. You can mod me as a troll if you want but you've got to chose the best tool for the job and C is a tool for writing operating systems for fuck's sake. It isn't even a high level language.</i></p><p>Not so.  C is the king of the third-generation languages.  With respect to your points, in order:</p><p>C doesn't enforce any particular programming style, and all major applications are written in C or C++ (so I don't think you can claim it is "not a right tool" for that).  C is a tool for writing operating systems or anything else, and I am going to claim that C is a slightly higher level language than Pascal; it can do anything you can do in Pascal, often with cleaner code.  (For example, it is much cleaner to simply return a value, than to assign the return value to the function name and then use a series of if statements to make sure that nothing else happens until the end of the function body is reached.)</p><p><i>All those buffer overflow security holes happen because of both typical "clever hack" C programming style and choice of using a language for writing operating systems to write business applications.</i></p><p>Buffer overflows are caused by using a language that doesn't do run-time bounds checking for you, combined with a standard library that includes functions that don't do explicit bounds checking either.  strcpy() is considered harmful, you need to use functions that know how long the buffer is and refuse to write past the end.  I note that there is nothing in Pascal to make it better than C here, except for the fact that it is really impossible to write a useful standard library in Pascal.  (Different length strings have <em>different types</em> so there is <em>no way</em> to write a general-purpose library function that can accept strings of different lengths!  That's just crazy!  It's so crazy that every major Pascal implementation offers some way to work around it.  Whereas C got this, like so many other things, right; and there are plenty of standard C string functions.)</p><p><i>Pascal wasn't a very good teaching language for nothing - it forced you to write software in a very clean and readable way.</i></p><p>It did nothing of the sort.  You can write wretched and awful code in Pascal just like anything else.</p><p>The closest I have seen to a language that forces you to write clean software is Python; it forces you to put colons at the end of if statements and function definitions, just for readability; it forces you to indent your code consistently, or it won't work.  And yet you can write wretched and awful code in Python just like anything else.</p><p>A language cannot force good code.  At best, it can support good code.  C does this decently; Python does it better.</p><p>Pascal is pretty much irrelevant now, and C is still very relevant now, which should tell you something.</p><p>P.S. Getting back to 12-year-olds, I think Python would be the ideal first language.  C would not be horrible; it would be better than C++ because there is much less to learn.  Pascal isn't bad, but it is a dead-end irrelevant language, so I wouldn't bother with it.</p><p>steveha</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>IMHO everything is wrong with C as first language .
It gives you dreadful programming style and is not a right tool for application programming .
You can mod me as a troll if you want but you 've got to chose the best tool for the job and C is a tool for writing operating systems for fuck 's sake .
It is n't even a high level language.Not so .
C is the king of the third-generation languages .
With respect to your points , in order : C does n't enforce any particular programming style , and all major applications are written in C or C + + ( so I do n't think you can claim it is " not a right tool " for that ) .
C is a tool for writing operating systems or anything else , and I am going to claim that C is a slightly higher level language than Pascal ; it can do anything you can do in Pascal , often with cleaner code .
( For example , it is much cleaner to simply return a value , than to assign the return value to the function name and then use a series of if statements to make sure that nothing else happens until the end of the function body is reached .
) All those buffer overflow security holes happen because of both typical " clever hack " C programming style and choice of using a language for writing operating systems to write business applications.Buffer overflows are caused by using a language that does n't do run-time bounds checking for you , combined with a standard library that includes functions that do n't do explicit bounds checking either .
strcpy ( ) is considered harmful , you need to use functions that know how long the buffer is and refuse to write past the end .
I note that there is nothing in Pascal to make it better than C here , except for the fact that it is really impossible to write a useful standard library in Pascal .
( Different length strings have different types so there is no way to write a general-purpose library function that can accept strings of different lengths !
That 's just crazy !
It 's so crazy that every major Pascal implementation offers some way to work around it .
Whereas C got this , like so many other things , right ; and there are plenty of standard C string functions .
) Pascal was n't a very good teaching language for nothing - it forced you to write software in a very clean and readable way.It did nothing of the sort .
You can write wretched and awful code in Pascal just like anything else.The closest I have seen to a language that forces you to write clean software is Python ; it forces you to put colons at the end of if statements and function definitions , just for readability ; it forces you to indent your code consistently , or it wo n't work .
And yet you can write wretched and awful code in Python just like anything else.A language can not force good code .
At best , it can support good code .
C does this decently ; Python does it better.Pascal is pretty much irrelevant now , and C is still very relevant now , which should tell you something.P.S .
Getting back to 12-year-olds , I think Python would be the ideal first language .
C would not be horrible ; it would be better than C + + because there is much less to learn .
Pascal is n't bad , but it is a dead-end irrelevant language , so I would n't bother with it.steveha</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IMHO everything is wrong with C as first language.
It gives you dreadful programming style and is not a right tool for application programming.
You can mod me as a troll if you want but you've got to chose the best tool for the job and C is a tool for writing operating systems for fuck's sake.
It isn't even a high level language.Not so.
C is the king of the third-generation languages.
With respect to your points, in order:C doesn't enforce any particular programming style, and all major applications are written in C or C++ (so I don't think you can claim it is "not a right tool" for that).
C is a tool for writing operating systems or anything else, and I am going to claim that C is a slightly higher level language than Pascal; it can do anything you can do in Pascal, often with cleaner code.
(For example, it is much cleaner to simply return a value, than to assign the return value to the function name and then use a series of if statements to make sure that nothing else happens until the end of the function body is reached.
)All those buffer overflow security holes happen because of both typical "clever hack" C programming style and choice of using a language for writing operating systems to write business applications.Buffer overflows are caused by using a language that doesn't do run-time bounds checking for you, combined with a standard library that includes functions that don't do explicit bounds checking either.
strcpy() is considered harmful, you need to use functions that know how long the buffer is and refuse to write past the end.
I note that there is nothing in Pascal to make it better than C here, except for the fact that it is really impossible to write a useful standard library in Pascal.
(Different length strings have different types so there is no way to write a general-purpose library function that can accept strings of different lengths!
That's just crazy!
It's so crazy that every major Pascal implementation offers some way to work around it.
Whereas C got this, like so many other things, right; and there are plenty of standard C string functions.
)Pascal wasn't a very good teaching language for nothing - it forced you to write software in a very clean and readable way.It did nothing of the sort.
You can write wretched and awful code in Pascal just like anything else.The closest I have seen to a language that forces you to write clean software is Python; it forces you to put colons at the end of if statements and function definitions, just for readability; it forces you to indent your code consistently, or it won't work.
And yet you can write wretched and awful code in Python just like anything else.A language cannot force good code.
At best, it can support good code.
C does this decently; Python does it better.Pascal is pretty much irrelevant now, and C is still very relevant now, which should tell you something.P.S.
Getting back to 12-year-olds, I think Python would be the ideal first language.
C would not be horrible; it would be better than C++ because there is much less to learn.
Pascal isn't bad, but it is a dead-end irrelevant language, so I wouldn't bother with it.steveha</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565096</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568196</id>
	<title>rogueseven</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261933560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Try the Boe-bot from Parallax with the pBASIC language ($150). And the rugrat will see the code actually doo stuff, blinky lights, bump into walls with touch sensors, avoid objects with IR and cool stuff like that. Or try the LEGO NXT ($250), very cool also. The NXT G programming language is fairly easy learn and fun to work with. Great for you and the little tike and it LEGO's so he/she can rebuild into another configuration. No blinky lights but you do have sound, sonar, touch and light sensors.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Try the Boe-bot from Parallax with the pBASIC language ( $ 150 ) .
And the rugrat will see the code actually doo stuff , blinky lights , bump into walls with touch sensors , avoid objects with IR and cool stuff like that .
Or try the LEGO NXT ( $ 250 ) , very cool also .
The NXT G programming language is fairly easy learn and fun to work with .
Great for you and the little tike and it LEGO 's so he/she can rebuild into another configuration .
No blinky lights but you do have sound , sonar , touch and light sensors .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Try the Boe-bot from Parallax with the pBASIC language ($150).
And the rugrat will see the code actually doo stuff, blinky lights, bump into walls with touch sensors, avoid objects with IR and cool stuff like that.
Or try the LEGO NXT ($250), very cool also.
The NXT G programming language is fairly easy learn and fun to work with.
Great for you and the little tike and it LEGO's so he/she can rebuild into another configuration.
No blinky lights but you do have sound, sonar, touch and light sensors.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566380</id>
	<title>Ruby!</title>
	<author>Noer</author>
	<datestamp>1261915560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd particularly recommend Ruby, even over Python. It's got very clean, elegant syntax, and its main disadvantages (performance, mostly) won't matter to him. He would be able to quickly get into web development too if he learned Rails.</p><p>I highly recommend the book <a href="http://pine.fm/LearnToProgram/" title="pine.fm">Learn To Program</a> [pine.fm] by Chris Pine. It uses Ruby as a teaching language.</p><p>Ruby is truly purely object-oriented (no primitives) which helps with consistency and the principle of least surprise. It also does NOT have the whitespace-as-syntax 'issue' of Python. But, python is also a good choice. Ruby has nice functional aspects as well, which if he eventually learns how to use them, will make him a better programmer in any language.</p><p>Lua is used as the scripting engine for a lot of games, which might make it a good choice.</p><p>Scala is another alternative, though it might be a little tricky as a first language.</p><p>The advantages of higher-level languages like Ruby, Python, Lua, Scala etc. are that there's less code and less boilerplate, and while they're further from the metal than C, you can get meaningful stuff done faster, which may be a good thing for a 12 year old's attention span.</p><p>I'm a PhD student in computer science at Tufts University and our department is seriously rethinking how intro CS is taught at the undergrad level, so I've put some thought into this. Note that I would NOT make the same recommendations for a 12 year old as for a college freshman, necessarily.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd particularly recommend Ruby , even over Python .
It 's got very clean , elegant syntax , and its main disadvantages ( performance , mostly ) wo n't matter to him .
He would be able to quickly get into web development too if he learned Rails.I highly recommend the book Learn To Program [ pine.fm ] by Chris Pine .
It uses Ruby as a teaching language.Ruby is truly purely object-oriented ( no primitives ) which helps with consistency and the principle of least surprise .
It also does NOT have the whitespace-as-syntax 'issue ' of Python .
But , python is also a good choice .
Ruby has nice functional aspects as well , which if he eventually learns how to use them , will make him a better programmer in any language.Lua is used as the scripting engine for a lot of games , which might make it a good choice.Scala is another alternative , though it might be a little tricky as a first language.The advantages of higher-level languages like Ruby , Python , Lua , Scala etc .
are that there 's less code and less boilerplate , and while they 're further from the metal than C , you can get meaningful stuff done faster , which may be a good thing for a 12 year old 's attention span.I 'm a PhD student in computer science at Tufts University and our department is seriously rethinking how intro CS is taught at the undergrad level , so I 've put some thought into this .
Note that I would NOT make the same recommendations for a 12 year old as for a college freshman , necessarily .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd particularly recommend Ruby, even over Python.
It's got very clean, elegant syntax, and its main disadvantages (performance, mostly) won't matter to him.
He would be able to quickly get into web development too if he learned Rails.I highly recommend the book Learn To Program [pine.fm] by Chris Pine.
It uses Ruby as a teaching language.Ruby is truly purely object-oriented (no primitives) which helps with consistency and the principle of least surprise.
It also does NOT have the whitespace-as-syntax 'issue' of Python.
But, python is also a good choice.
Ruby has nice functional aspects as well, which if he eventually learns how to use them, will make him a better programmer in any language.Lua is used as the scripting engine for a lot of games, which might make it a good choice.Scala is another alternative, though it might be a little tricky as a first language.The advantages of higher-level languages like Ruby, Python, Lua, Scala etc.
are that there's less code and less boilerplate, and while they're further from the metal than C, you can get meaningful stuff done faster, which may be a good thing for a 12 year old's attention span.I'm a PhD student in computer science at Tufts University and our department is seriously rethinking how intro CS is taught at the undergrad level, so I've put some thought into this.
Note that I would NOT make the same recommendations for a 12 year old as for a college freshman, necessarily.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567090</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261921680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your first programming language is much like your first young lady.  It can either set the stage for wonderful things to come or can wreck you for all others.  All kidding aside, learning programming isn't about the languages.  Its about understanding programmatic thinking, problem solving, and conveying a solution is a manner that is both efficient and easily understood by others that will eventually need to read your code.  There are two schools of programming thought. 1) Imperative programming languages like C, C++, C# and the like.  Of these C is the best place to start.  Mastery of it will teach you all the basic skills necessary to master all other Imperative languages.  2) Functional programming languages, like Lisp, Schema, et 'al.  Of these Scheme is the best place to start.  Mastery of it will insure you have all the skills necessary to learn any other functional programming language.<br>Most people start with an imperative language.  In many ways they are easier for beginners.  Most developers find that they never need to learn a functional language because they can stay employed without learning one.  This is unfortunately, a developer isn't truly complete until they have mastered a pure functional language, despite the fact that they may never program commercially in one.<br>I've been programming commercially for 25 years and have been lucky enough to develop programs in dozens of different languages over the years.  In my humble opinion: First C, second Scheme......  After that you'll be able to throw together  some of the best software in the world with tea leaves or whatever else your forced to, if you have to, just keep in mind its all about how you put it together not the language your using.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your first programming language is much like your first young lady .
It can either set the stage for wonderful things to come or can wreck you for all others .
All kidding aside , learning programming is n't about the languages .
Its about understanding programmatic thinking , problem solving , and conveying a solution is a manner that is both efficient and easily understood by others that will eventually need to read your code .
There are two schools of programming thought .
1 ) Imperative programming languages like C , C + + , C # and the like .
Of these C is the best place to start .
Mastery of it will teach you all the basic skills necessary to master all other Imperative languages .
2 ) Functional programming languages , like Lisp , Schema , et 'al .
Of these Scheme is the best place to start .
Mastery of it will insure you have all the skills necessary to learn any other functional programming language.Most people start with an imperative language .
In many ways they are easier for beginners .
Most developers find that they never need to learn a functional language because they can stay employed without learning one .
This is unfortunately , a developer is n't truly complete until they have mastered a pure functional language , despite the fact that they may never program commercially in one.I 've been programming commercially for 25 years and have been lucky enough to develop programs in dozens of different languages over the years .
In my humble opinion : First C , second Scheme...... After that you 'll be able to throw together some of the best software in the world with tea leaves or whatever else your forced to , if you have to , just keep in mind its all about how you put it together not the language your using .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your first programming language is much like your first young lady.
It can either set the stage for wonderful things to come or can wreck you for all others.
All kidding aside, learning programming isn't about the languages.
Its about understanding programmatic thinking, problem solving, and conveying a solution is a manner that is both efficient and easily understood by others that will eventually need to read your code.
There are two schools of programming thought.
1) Imperative programming languages like C, C++, C# and the like.
Of these C is the best place to start.
Mastery of it will teach you all the basic skills necessary to master all other Imperative languages.
2) Functional programming languages, like Lisp, Schema, et 'al.
Of these Scheme is the best place to start.
Mastery of it will insure you have all the skills necessary to learn any other functional programming language.Most people start with an imperative language.
In many ways they are easier for beginners.
Most developers find that they never need to learn a functional language because they can stay employed without learning one.
This is unfortunately, a developer isn't truly complete until they have mastered a pure functional language, despite the fact that they may never program commercially in one.I've been programming commercially for 25 years and have been lucky enough to develop programs in dozens of different languages over the years.
In my humble opinion: First C, second Scheme......  After that you'll be able to throw together  some of the best software in the world with tea leaves or whatever else your forced to, if you have to, just keep in mind its all about how you put it together not the language your using.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570948</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>BobMcD</author>
	<datestamp>1262015160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><blockquote><div><p>Great advice! I also tried to teach my son to program, but he wasn't interested. I think the 'key' is to find something he is interested in that he has to learn to program to do it.</p></div></blockquote><p>No you asshat, the 'key' is to find out what your child is interested in that they show aptitude at and nurture that.  Attempting to force your child into some preconceived mold in order to enrich some deranged sense of proxy-succcess you get through your child's achievement is just wrong.</p><p>Your children do not necessarily enjoy the same things you do.  Deal with it.</p></div><p>First, call your mom and your dad and tell them each that you love them.  Next, call your therapist and reschedule that appointment you blew off.</p><p>Finally, try and grasp that people posting to slashdot might actually find programming to be an excellent life skill to have.  Sort of like teaching your child to properly wield a hammer, stalk game, catch fish, play sports, change oil, and any number of other things they probably won't actually like to do.  A breadth of exposure to these sorts of things makes for a well-rounded person, which is part of a parent's job.  Actually being good at the thing you're trying to teach your child is just a bonus.  Even if the child grows up to be a PHB, this sort of exposure would mean he has some hint of a clue when dealing with software-related issues.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Great advice !
I also tried to teach my son to program , but he was n't interested .
I think the 'key ' is to find something he is interested in that he has to learn to program to do it.No you asshat , the 'key ' is to find out what your child is interested in that they show aptitude at and nurture that .
Attempting to force your child into some preconceived mold in order to enrich some deranged sense of proxy-succcess you get through your child 's achievement is just wrong.Your children do not necessarily enjoy the same things you do .
Deal with it.First , call your mom and your dad and tell them each that you love them .
Next , call your therapist and reschedule that appointment you blew off.Finally , try and grasp that people posting to slashdot might actually find programming to be an excellent life skill to have .
Sort of like teaching your child to properly wield a hammer , stalk game , catch fish , play sports , change oil , and any number of other things they probably wo n't actually like to do .
A breadth of exposure to these sorts of things makes for a well-rounded person , which is part of a parent 's job .
Actually being good at the thing you 're trying to teach your child is just a bonus .
Even if the child grows up to be a PHB , this sort of exposure would mean he has some hint of a clue when dealing with software-related issues .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Great advice!
I also tried to teach my son to program, but he wasn't interested.
I think the 'key' is to find something he is interested in that he has to learn to program to do it.No you asshat, the 'key' is to find out what your child is interested in that they show aptitude at and nurture that.
Attempting to force your child into some preconceived mold in order to enrich some deranged sense of proxy-succcess you get through your child's achievement is just wrong.Your children do not necessarily enjoy the same things you do.
Deal with it.First, call your mom and your dad and tell them each that you love them.
Next, call your therapist and reschedule that appointment you blew off.Finally, try and grasp that people posting to slashdot might actually find programming to be an excellent life skill to have.
Sort of like teaching your child to properly wield a hammer, stalk game, catch fish, play sports, change oil, and any number of other things they probably won't actually like to do.
A breadth of exposure to these sorts of things makes for a well-rounded person, which is part of a parent's job.
Actually being good at the thing you're trying to teach your child is just a bonus.
Even if the child grows up to be a PHB, this sort of exposure would mean he has some hint of a clue when dealing with software-related issues.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564990</id>
	<title>Lua</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261904700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lua</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lua</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lua</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567768</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Brad Mace</author>
	<datestamp>1261928160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree completely, glad to see a voice of reason in here.  Submitter sounds a bit too eager to turn his brother into his little nerd minion.  Kid is 12 and submitter is already dragging him into the c++ uber alles wars.  It's not about this vs that language or platform or what *submitter* considers the One True Path.  Just give him something where he can see results.</p><p>
The first things I played with were Logo and Hypercard, which I think used a variant of AppleScript.  Neither is at all relevant to the real world, but they were good starting points.  No fancy editors or tool chains, just a little coding for quick results.  The only special feature I'd consider useful is syntax highlighting to help them spot mistakes.  He's not going to be creating big enough programs that he'll need anything else, and he certainly doesn't need to be bogged down learning obscure vi or emacs commands or complex tool chains. At most an editor like jEdit or Notepad++ would be just right, probably with a lot of features disabled or just ignored.
</p><p>Next steps were javascript (again quick results) and programming my TI-82 (first programs that were actually useful, for math class).  Then C++ in highschool, followed shortly by Perl.  Learned PHP the summer after highschool, took classes on Scheme, Java, Haskell and Python in college.  Of course I don't remember a lot of those now, and this kid probably won't either.  So don't try and railroad him cause it won't work anyway.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree completely , glad to see a voice of reason in here .
Submitter sounds a bit too eager to turn his brother into his little nerd minion .
Kid is 12 and submitter is already dragging him into the c + + uber alles wars .
It 's not about this vs that language or platform or what * submitter * considers the One True Path .
Just give him something where he can see results .
The first things I played with were Logo and Hypercard , which I think used a variant of AppleScript .
Neither is at all relevant to the real world , but they were good starting points .
No fancy editors or tool chains , just a little coding for quick results .
The only special feature I 'd consider useful is syntax highlighting to help them spot mistakes .
He 's not going to be creating big enough programs that he 'll need anything else , and he certainly does n't need to be bogged down learning obscure vi or emacs commands or complex tool chains .
At most an editor like jEdit or Notepad + + would be just right , probably with a lot of features disabled or just ignored .
Next steps were javascript ( again quick results ) and programming my TI-82 ( first programs that were actually useful , for math class ) .
Then C + + in highschool , followed shortly by Perl .
Learned PHP the summer after highschool , took classes on Scheme , Java , Haskell and Python in college .
Of course I do n't remember a lot of those now , and this kid probably wo n't either .
So do n't try and railroad him cause it wo n't work anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree completely, glad to see a voice of reason in here.
Submitter sounds a bit too eager to turn his brother into his little nerd minion.
Kid is 12 and submitter is already dragging him into the c++ uber alles wars.
It's not about this vs that language or platform or what *submitter* considers the One True Path.
Just give him something where he can see results.
The first things I played with were Logo and Hypercard, which I think used a variant of AppleScript.
Neither is at all relevant to the real world, but they were good starting points.
No fancy editors or tool chains, just a little coding for quick results.
The only special feature I'd consider useful is syntax highlighting to help them spot mistakes.
He's not going to be creating big enough programs that he'll need anything else, and he certainly doesn't need to be bogged down learning obscure vi or emacs commands or complex tool chains.
At most an editor like jEdit or Notepad++ would be just right, probably with a lot of features disabled or just ignored.
Next steps were javascript (again quick results) and programming my TI-82 (first programs that were actually useful, for math class).
Then C++ in highschool, followed shortly by Perl.
Learned PHP the summer after highschool, took classes on Scheme, Java, Haskell and Python in college.
Of course I don't remember a lot of those now, and this kid probably won't either.
So don't try and railroad him cause it won't work anyway.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566078</id>
	<title>Wrong Question</title>
	<author>pz</author>
	<datestamp>1261912800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The language you select is nearly irrelevant (although I would strongly shy away from the standard imperative languages, and take serious issue that C/C++ is a good target).  You do not want to teach a child a particular language, you want to teach them how to think about programming.  If you think knowing C/C++ or Python, or Ruby, or Perl, or Javascript, or nearly anything else in wide use right now will be relevant in 20 years, you have not studied your history.</p><p>Get a good book on PROGRAMMING, not on a particular language.  There are tons.  I would personally recommend Structure and Intrepretation of Computer Programs by Abelson and Sussman (http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html available at Amazon<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... the first edition is fine if you don't want to pony up for the second edition).  It teaches PROGRAMMING, not a particular language.</p><p>As my undergraduate advisor said, "go and pick up K&amp;R and learn C over the weekend" -- THAT is what you want to be able to do.  Teaching a particular language does not generate that kind of skill.  Teaching the fundamentals does.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The language you select is nearly irrelevant ( although I would strongly shy away from the standard imperative languages , and take serious issue that C/C + + is a good target ) .
You do not want to teach a child a particular language , you want to teach them how to think about programming .
If you think knowing C/C + + or Python , or Ruby , or Perl , or Javascript , or nearly anything else in wide use right now will be relevant in 20 years , you have not studied your history.Get a good book on PROGRAMMING , not on a particular language .
There are tons .
I would personally recommend Structure and Intrepretation of Computer Programs by Abelson and Sussman ( http : //mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html available at Amazon ... the first edition is fine if you do n't want to pony up for the second edition ) .
It teaches PROGRAMMING , not a particular language.As my undergraduate advisor said , " go and pick up K&amp;R and learn C over the weekend " -- THAT is what you want to be able to do .
Teaching a particular language does not generate that kind of skill .
Teaching the fundamentals does .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The language you select is nearly irrelevant (although I would strongly shy away from the standard imperative languages, and take serious issue that C/C++ is a good target).
You do not want to teach a child a particular language, you want to teach them how to think about programming.
If you think knowing C/C++ or Python, or Ruby, or Perl, or Javascript, or nearly anything else in wide use right now will be relevant in 20 years, you have not studied your history.Get a good book on PROGRAMMING, not on a particular language.
There are tons.
I would personally recommend Structure and Intrepretation of Computer Programs by Abelson and Sussman (http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html available at Amazon ... the first edition is fine if you don't want to pony up for the second edition).
It teaches PROGRAMMING, not a particular language.As my undergraduate advisor said, "go and pick up K&amp;R and learn C over the weekend" -- THAT is what you want to be able to do.
Teaching a particular language does not generate that kind of skill.
Teaching the fundamentals does.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568568</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Tesen</author>
	<datestamp>1261939380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My first low-entry-barrier BASIC program was in QBasic. I wrote a war-dialer (hey, I was 11 and had just discovered my first BBS and wondered what else was out there).</p><p>Logged connectable devices to a txt file, came back in the morning with my mum pissed as hell at me for tying up the phone all night and part of the morning. Didn't discover a lot, oh well. It was fun, taught me some stuff.</p><p>Tes</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My first low-entry-barrier BASIC program was in QBasic .
I wrote a war-dialer ( hey , I was 11 and had just discovered my first BBS and wondered what else was out there ) .Logged connectable devices to a txt file , came back in the morning with my mum pissed as hell at me for tying up the phone all night and part of the morning .
Did n't discover a lot , oh well .
It was fun , taught me some stuff.Tes</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My first low-entry-barrier BASIC program was in QBasic.
I wrote a war-dialer (hey, I was 11 and had just discovered my first BBS and wondered what else was out there).Logged connectable devices to a txt file, came back in the morning with my mum pissed as hell at me for tying up the phone all night and part of the morning.
Didn't discover a lot, oh well.
It was fun, taught me some stuff.Tes</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569840</id>
	<title>Basic-256 for kids</title>
	<author>Leafwiz</author>
	<datestamp>1262006100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have been teaching some youngsters programming with <a href="http://kidbasic.sourceforge.net/en/index.html" title="sourceforge.net" rel="nofollow">Basic-256 for kids </a> [sourceforge.net] they really liked it.
Because it has a very easy syntax, and it has an inboard drawing pane. So the kids could draw stuff like a circle and get it moving.<br>
<br>
From the Reference <br> <br>


Format	circle x,y,r<br>

Example<br>
<tt>
color red<br>
circle 100,100,50 <br><nobr> <wbr></nobr>// Will draw a red circle of a radius of 50 with it's center at (100,100).<br>
</tt> <br>
For kids this is a ZOMG!!! "Look dad! I made this!!!" *shows a circle that is moving*</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have been teaching some youngsters programming with Basic-256 for kids [ sourceforge.net ] they really liked it .
Because it has a very easy syntax , and it has an inboard drawing pane .
So the kids could draw stuff like a circle and get it moving .
From the Reference Format circle x,y,r Example color red circle 100,100,50 // Will draw a red circle of a radius of 50 with it 's center at ( 100,100 ) .
For kids this is a ZOMG ! ! !
" Look dad !
I made this ! ! !
" * shows a circle that is moving *</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have been teaching some youngsters programming with Basic-256 for kids  [sourceforge.net] they really liked it.
Because it has a very easy syntax, and it has an inboard drawing pane.
So the kids could draw stuff like a circle and get it moving.
From the Reference  


Format	circle x,y,r

Example

color red
circle 100,100,50  // Will draw a red circle of a radius of 50 with it's center at (100,100).
For kids this is a ZOMG!!!
"Look dad!
I made this!!!
" *shows a circle that is moving*</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565362</id>
	<title>Re:Ease in with scratch</title>
	<author>Bell Would?</author>
	<datestamp>1261907040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Another vote for Scratch.  Programming concepts are learned transparently without issues like environment, syntax, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Another vote for Scratch .
Programming concepts are learned transparently without issues like environment , syntax , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Another vote for Scratch.
Programming concepts are learned transparently without issues like environment, syntax, etc.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565016</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566036</id>
	<title>Python, however...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261912380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Quick Answer: Python</p><p>Thoughtful Answer: It's not about the language, but the concepts.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Quick Answer : PythonThoughtful Answer : It 's not about the language , but the concepts .
: - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Quick Answer: PythonThoughtful Answer: It's not about the language, but the concepts.
:-)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568302</id>
	<title>Re:First place to start isn't even near a computer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261935000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Teaching someone program, and teaching someone to program <b>well</b> (logically-organized code, readable code, maintainable code, etc.) are two different things.</p><p>How many write-once, correctly-modify-never Excel macros exist in the world?</p><p>I don't believe kid-failure at Legos, etc., means they won't be able to program; not all kids are that coordinated, or that interested in physical media (I liked Tinkertoys and Legos, but I wasn't bug-nuts about them; they were simply toys).</p><p>I'd recommend starting with LOGO, then going to Pascal, then something SmallTalk-like.</p><p>The point is to teach the concepts, combined with reaonably fun feedback, and not overload the kid with needless detail.   This way, the kid can extrapolate and also ignore things as needed.</p><p>Noobies can drown in GW-BASIC, Perl, and Java.  If you wanna kill his brain, get him started on MFC and ATL.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Teaching someone program , and teaching someone to program well ( logically-organized code , readable code , maintainable code , etc .
) are two different things.How many write-once , correctly-modify-never Excel macros exist in the world ? I do n't believe kid-failure at Legos , etc. , means they wo n't be able to program ; not all kids are that coordinated , or that interested in physical media ( I liked Tinkertoys and Legos , but I was n't bug-nuts about them ; they were simply toys ) .I 'd recommend starting with LOGO , then going to Pascal , then something SmallTalk-like.The point is to teach the concepts , combined with reaonably fun feedback , and not overload the kid with needless detail .
This way , the kid can extrapolate and also ignore things as needed.Noobies can drown in GW-BASIC , Perl , and Java .
If you wan na kill his brain , get him started on MFC and ATL .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Teaching someone program, and teaching someone to program well (logically-organized code, readable code, maintainable code, etc.
) are two different things.How many write-once, correctly-modify-never Excel macros exist in the world?I don't believe kid-failure at Legos, etc., means they won't be able to program; not all kids are that coordinated, or that interested in physical media (I liked Tinkertoys and Legos, but I wasn't bug-nuts about them; they were simply toys).I'd recommend starting with LOGO, then going to Pascal, then something SmallTalk-like.The point is to teach the concepts, combined with reaonably fun feedback, and not overload the kid with needless detail.
This way, the kid can extrapolate and also ignore things as needed.Noobies can drown in GW-BASIC, Perl, and Java.
If you wanna kill his brain, get him started on MFC and ATL.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567514</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569992</id>
	<title>Colobot</title>
	<author>ouin</author>
	<datestamp>1262008140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Have a look at Colobot or other games from Epsitec: http://www.ceebot.com/<br><br>The purpose of Colobot is to program bots to help an astronaut to colonize a new planet, starting by the Moon.<br><br>The language is very similar to C++ and you can design your own levels.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Have a look at Colobot or other games from Epsitec : http : //www.ceebot.com/The purpose of Colobot is to program bots to help an astronaut to colonize a new planet , starting by the Moon.The language is very similar to C + + and you can design your own levels .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have a look at Colobot or other games from Epsitec: http://www.ceebot.com/The purpose of Colobot is to program bots to help an astronaut to colonize a new planet, starting by the Moon.The language is very similar to C++ and you can design your own levels.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565478</id>
	<title>Reward his bossiness..</title>
	<author>sux0rz</author>
	<datestamp>1261907760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Reward his bossiness and ridiculous demands, he'll become a high paid manager of C++ programmers in no time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Reward his bossiness and ridiculous demands , he 'll become a high paid manager of C + + programmers in no time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Reward his bossiness and ridiculous demands, he'll become a high paid manager of C++ programmers in no time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570216</id>
	<title>my "first" was a graphics program in 1970</title>
	<author>peter303</author>
	<datestamp>1262010360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That was an interesting feat considering vector graphics wasnt invented until the mid 1970s and raster graphics closer to 1980.
<br>
We had teletypes made available in our school connected to some local college. Basically it was just a BASIC interpreter. Aroudn that time Conway posted his infamous "game of life" column in Scientific American - one of several times he paralyzed the world's computers with trivial (Mandelbrot too). Life was both graphical. Also it leads to deeper levels of sophisticated data representation shoul you want to get any speed on the kilo-flop machines of that era.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That was an interesting feat considering vector graphics wasnt invented until the mid 1970s and raster graphics closer to 1980 .
We had teletypes made available in our school connected to some local college .
Basically it was just a BASIC interpreter .
Aroudn that time Conway posted his infamous " game of life " column in Scientific American - one of several times he paralyzed the world 's computers with trivial ( Mandelbrot too ) .
Life was both graphical .
Also it leads to deeper levels of sophisticated data representation shoul you want to get any speed on the kilo-flop machines of that era .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That was an interesting feat considering vector graphics wasnt invented until the mid 1970s and raster graphics closer to 1980.
We had teletypes made available in our school connected to some local college.
Basically it was just a BASIC interpreter.
Aroudn that time Conway posted his infamous "game of life" column in Scientific American - one of several times he paralyzed the world's computers with trivial (Mandelbrot too).
Life was both graphical.
Also it leads to deeper levels of sophisticated data representation shoul you want to get any speed on the kilo-flop machines of that era.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567960</id>
	<title>You're best bet</title>
	<author>scire9</author>
	<datestamp>1261930440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Just may be finding a way to get him interested in programming.  Find something the kid likes and (if applicable) relate it to programming.  If the kid's personality has developed enough to where you can tell if he's an <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs\_Type\_Indicator#Attitudes:\_Extraversion\_.28E.29\_.2F\_Introversion\_.28I.29" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">Introvert or Extravert</a> [wikipedia.org] it may make it easier on you.  Introverted personality types (such as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTJ" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">INTJ</a> [wikipedia.org] or <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTP" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">INTP</a> [wikipedia.org]) tend to have the interest in subjects like programming which may drive them to excel at it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just may be finding a way to get him interested in programming .
Find something the kid likes and ( if applicable ) relate it to programming .
If the kid 's personality has developed enough to where you can tell if he 's an Introvert or Extravert [ wikipedia.org ] it may make it easier on you .
Introverted personality types ( such as INTJ [ wikipedia.org ] or INTP [ wikipedia.org ] ) tend to have the interest in subjects like programming which may drive them to excel at it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just may be finding a way to get him interested in programming.
Find something the kid likes and (if applicable) relate it to programming.
If the kid's personality has developed enough to where you can tell if he's an Introvert or Extravert [wikipedia.org] it may make it easier on you.
Introverted personality types (such as INTJ [wikipedia.org] or INTP [wikipedia.org]) tend to have the interest in subjects like programming which may drive them to excel at it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30574594</id>
	<title>Python without a doubt</title>
	<author>jocknerd</author>
	<datestamp>1262032320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Link to this website: <a href="http://openbookproject.net/thinkcs/python/english2e/" title="openbookproject.net">http://openbookproject.net/thinkcs/python/english2e/</a> [openbookproject.net]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Link to this website : http : //openbookproject.net/thinkcs/python/english2e/ [ openbookproject.net ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Link to this website: http://openbookproject.net/thinkcs/python/english2e/ [openbookproject.net]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568664</id>
	<title>Start from Physical Stuff</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261940940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>PICkit2 Debug Express comes with everything(IDE,Writer,Board with headers) for just $50. It lets you learn every basics you need. I think that topmost-layer things, like python with GUI, is too much complicated to master for a boy in 12.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>PICkit2 Debug Express comes with everything ( IDE,Writer,Board with headers ) for just $ 50 .
It lets you learn every basics you need .
I think that topmost-layer things , like python with GUI , is too much complicated to master for a boy in 12 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PICkit2 Debug Express comes with everything(IDE,Writer,Board with headers) for just $50.
It lets you learn every basics you need.
I think that topmost-layer things, like python with GUI, is too much complicated to master for a boy in 12.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565732</id>
	<title>Only if the kid is interested</title>
	<author>Madsy</author>
	<datestamp>1261909860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I was twelve, I moved from QBasic to C. C isn't that difficult to understand. If the child doesn't show any interest, don't push him/her. It takes a certain level of curiosity to like programming. It isn't for everyone. Choosing a dumbed-down toy-language doesn't make a difference, but being a good teacher does.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was twelve , I moved from QBasic to C. C is n't that difficult to understand .
If the child does n't show any interest , do n't push him/her .
It takes a certain level of curiosity to like programming .
It is n't for everyone .
Choosing a dumbed-down toy-language does n't make a difference , but being a good teacher does .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was twelve, I moved from QBasic to C. C isn't that difficult to understand.
If the child doesn't show any interest, don't push him/her.
It takes a certain level of curiosity to like programming.
It isn't for everyone.
Choosing a dumbed-down toy-language doesn't make a difference, but being a good teacher does.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566216</id>
	<title>Scratch</title>
	<author>iwoj</author>
	<datestamp>1261914000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Try <a href="http://scratch.mit.edu/" title="mit.edu" rel="nofollow">Scratch</a> [mit.edu].</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Try Scratch [ mit.edu ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Try Scratch [mit.edu].</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569276</id>
	<title>Don't just teach. Help build.</title>
	<author>v(*\_*)vvvv</author>
	<datestamp>1261994880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You shouldn't look at programming strictly from a "writing code" perspective. No matter how fun or friendly a language is, if it doesn't do anything, it is not interesting. And you will not be able to persuade most people into finding code alone interesting. Maybe scheme code is "interesting."</p><p>Instead, you need to focus on the results of the code. If the student is familiar with Windows, then teach them how to build windows apps. If they love their iPhone, then maybe how to write iPhone apps. If the kid loves blogging, then maybe how to build his own web site.</p><p>Give them the tools to fulfill *their* imagination, not yours.</p><p>And it is all about the tools. If there is anything a child has, it is time. Give them the tools to make their dreams come true, and they will work on it tirelessly on their own. That is how we learn the things we remember.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You should n't look at programming strictly from a " writing code " perspective .
No matter how fun or friendly a language is , if it does n't do anything , it is not interesting .
And you will not be able to persuade most people into finding code alone interesting .
Maybe scheme code is " interesting .
" Instead , you need to focus on the results of the code .
If the student is familiar with Windows , then teach them how to build windows apps .
If they love their iPhone , then maybe how to write iPhone apps .
If the kid loves blogging , then maybe how to build his own web site.Give them the tools to fulfill * their * imagination , not yours.And it is all about the tools .
If there is anything a child has , it is time .
Give them the tools to make their dreams come true , and they will work on it tirelessly on their own .
That is how we learn the things we remember .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You shouldn't look at programming strictly from a "writing code" perspective.
No matter how fun or friendly a language is, if it doesn't do anything, it is not interesting.
And you will not be able to persuade most people into finding code alone interesting.
Maybe scheme code is "interesting.
"Instead, you need to focus on the results of the code.
If the student is familiar with Windows, then teach them how to build windows apps.
If they love their iPhone, then maybe how to write iPhone apps.
If the kid loves blogging, then maybe how to build his own web site.Give them the tools to fulfill *their* imagination, not yours.And it is all about the tools.
If there is anything a child has, it is time.
Give them the tools to make their dreams come true, and they will work on it tirelessly on their own.
That is how we learn the things we remember.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568730</id>
	<title>Re:ALICE from CMU</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261942440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What is the goal of programming?</p><p>To learn about objects, methods, functions, variables, loops, arrays, program flow, statefulness, events, design, and concurrency (threads).</p></div><p>I like to think the goal of programming is to promote logical/critical thinking, efficiency and the development and application of problem-solving skills; finding the best solution to a problem. Unfortunately, I think that the things you listed are overemphasized these days and deters people from the field (do the items in your list sound exciting?), robbing society of these key skills. The world seems to have a lot of problems..</p><p>That said however, Alice looks like a nice educational tool</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What is the goal of programming ? To learn about objects , methods , functions , variables , loops , arrays , program flow , statefulness , events , design , and concurrency ( threads ) .I like to think the goal of programming is to promote logical/critical thinking , efficiency and the development and application of problem-solving skills ; finding the best solution to a problem .
Unfortunately , I think that the things you listed are overemphasized these days and deters people from the field ( do the items in your list sound exciting ?
) , robbing society of these key skills .
The world seems to have a lot of problems..That said however , Alice looks like a nice educational tool</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What is the goal of programming?To learn about objects, methods, functions, variables, loops, arrays, program flow, statefulness, events, design, and concurrency (threads).I like to think the goal of programming is to promote logical/critical thinking, efficiency and the development and application of problem-solving skills; finding the best solution to a problem.
Unfortunately, I think that the things you listed are overemphasized these days and deters people from the field (do the items in your list sound exciting?
), robbing society of these key skills.
The world seems to have a lot of problems..That said however, Alice looks like a nice educational tool
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567330</id>
	<title>Start with assembler</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261923960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you teach him Python, PHP or Java first, you can bet he will never learn any lower-level programming language. I think the absolute best is to teach assembler, then C and after that C++ or any other OO language, maybe Python. Even better would be to first make him program with e.g. debug.exe. Why? Because this way he will understand why we use symbols in assembler. After a while, he will feel that he has to repeat a lot of idioms in assembler (conditionals and loops for example). Then he will appreciate C. After an unimaginable number of times he will have to write something like "ret = some\_function(); if (ret != 0) { printf("Error message\n"); return -1; }" he will appreciate exceptions in C++ or Python. If he will also read some good C code, he will learn that it is a good practice to encapsulate data. Again, he will be happy for C++/Python objects and namespaces, plus templates and inheritance are good for avoiding code duplication.</p><p>This is certainly a very long way to learn programming, but I am sure it is the right way. Your brother would appreciate and understand the way things are in modern OO languages. He would also have an idea of how the compiler might translate his C code into assembler, and thus, how to write efficient code. It certainly isn't the easiest way, but I can guarantee you that it would make him a good programmer. The alternative, easy way, of learning him a higher level language first would in my opinion lead to bad programming practices.</p><p>Anyway, this is roughly the way I learned how to program. I went from 8080 assembly (hand translated into hex code) and moved to QBasic and then C, C++ and Python. When I only knew C and was reading Bjarne Stroustrup's book on C++ I immediately recognized the flaws that C had and C++ fixed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you teach him Python , PHP or Java first , you can bet he will never learn any lower-level programming language .
I think the absolute best is to teach assembler , then C and after that C + + or any other OO language , maybe Python .
Even better would be to first make him program with e.g .
debug.exe. Why ?
Because this way he will understand why we use symbols in assembler .
After a while , he will feel that he has to repeat a lot of idioms in assembler ( conditionals and loops for example ) .
Then he will appreciate C. After an unimaginable number of times he will have to write something like " ret = some \ _function ( ) ; if ( ret ! = 0 ) { printf ( " Error message \ n " ) ; return -1 ; } " he will appreciate exceptions in C + + or Python .
If he will also read some good C code , he will learn that it is a good practice to encapsulate data .
Again , he will be happy for C + + /Python objects and namespaces , plus templates and inheritance are good for avoiding code duplication.This is certainly a very long way to learn programming , but I am sure it is the right way .
Your brother would appreciate and understand the way things are in modern OO languages .
He would also have an idea of how the compiler might translate his C code into assembler , and thus , how to write efficient code .
It certainly is n't the easiest way , but I can guarantee you that it would make him a good programmer .
The alternative , easy way , of learning him a higher level language first would in my opinion lead to bad programming practices.Anyway , this is roughly the way I learned how to program .
I went from 8080 assembly ( hand translated into hex code ) and moved to QBasic and then C , C + + and Python .
When I only knew C and was reading Bjarne Stroustrup 's book on C + + I immediately recognized the flaws that C had and C + + fixed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you teach him Python, PHP or Java first, you can bet he will never learn any lower-level programming language.
I think the absolute best is to teach assembler, then C and after that C++ or any other OO language, maybe Python.
Even better would be to first make him program with e.g.
debug.exe. Why?
Because this way he will understand why we use symbols in assembler.
After a while, he will feel that he has to repeat a lot of idioms in assembler (conditionals and loops for example).
Then he will appreciate C. After an unimaginable number of times he will have to write something like "ret = some\_function(); if (ret != 0) { printf("Error message\n"); return -1; }" he will appreciate exceptions in C++ or Python.
If he will also read some good C code, he will learn that it is a good practice to encapsulate data.
Again, he will be happy for C++/Python objects and namespaces, plus templates and inheritance are good for avoiding code duplication.This is certainly a very long way to learn programming, but I am sure it is the right way.
Your brother would appreciate and understand the way things are in modern OO languages.
He would also have an idea of how the compiler might translate his C code into assembler, and thus, how to write efficient code.
It certainly isn't the easiest way, but I can guarantee you that it would make him a good programmer.
The alternative, easy way, of learning him a higher level language first would in my opinion lead to bad programming practices.Anyway, this is roughly the way I learned how to program.
I went from 8080 assembly (hand translated into hex code) and moved to QBasic and then C, C++ and Python.
When I only knew C and was reading Bjarne Stroustrup's book on C++ I immediately recognized the flaws that C had and C++ fixed.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567040</id>
	<title>Greenfoot</title>
	<author>brainburp</author>
	<datestamp>1261921200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Greenfoot:  <a href="http://www.greenfoot.org/about/" title="greenfoot.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.greenfoot.org/about/</a> [greenfoot.org]

The thing is, most people are not "meant" to be programming.  That is really a weird thing, really.  Life is for taking showers and stuff.  So, that's why I recommend Greenfoot; first see if someone is even interested.   See more at:  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational\_programming\_language" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational\_programming\_language</a> [wikipedia.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Greenfoot : http : //www.greenfoot.org/about/ [ greenfoot.org ] The thing is , most people are not " meant " to be programming .
That is really a weird thing , really .
Life is for taking showers and stuff .
So , that 's why I recommend Greenfoot ; first see if someone is even interested .
See more at : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational \ _programming \ _language [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Greenfoot:  http://www.greenfoot.org/about/ [greenfoot.org]

The thing is, most people are not "meant" to be programming.
That is really a weird thing, really.
Life is for taking showers and stuff.
So, that's why I recommend Greenfoot; first see if someone is even interested.
See more at:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational\_programming\_language [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571722</id>
	<title>Most 12 year olds aren't ready...</title>
	<author>ResidentSourcerer</author>
	<datestamp>1262019180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They don't think abstractly yet.  There is a reason that Algebra isn't usually taught until grade 9.</p><p>All the success stories I've heard with teaching programming to 'little people' have been using an interactive graphical language such as Logo.  Initially you use it as a keyboard controlled etch-a-sketch.  When you show that you can define a subroute 'Box' that draws a square, then a subroutine 'window' that draws a 4 pane mullioned window either the eyes light up, or you get a 'so what, I want to play hockey' look.</p><p>Sure there are some kids who would dig programming right away at age 12 -- I suspect that a large fraction of<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. readers are from that group.  But most kids aren't.</p><p>If you don't work with something like LOGO, wait a couple years.  Mean while, show him examples, and give him stories where the hero is a programmer. (Short list that...)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They do n't think abstractly yet .
There is a reason that Algebra is n't usually taught until grade 9.All the success stories I 've heard with teaching programming to 'little people ' have been using an interactive graphical language such as Logo .
Initially you use it as a keyboard controlled etch-a-sketch .
When you show that you can define a subroute 'Box ' that draws a square , then a subroutine 'window ' that draws a 4 pane mullioned window either the eyes light up , or you get a 'so what , I want to play hockey ' look.Sure there are some kids who would dig programming right away at age 12 -- I suspect that a large fraction of / .
readers are from that group .
But most kids are n't.If you do n't work with something like LOGO , wait a couple years .
Mean while , show him examples , and give him stories where the hero is a programmer .
( Short list that... )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They don't think abstractly yet.
There is a reason that Algebra isn't usually taught until grade 9.All the success stories I've heard with teaching programming to 'little people' have been using an interactive graphical language such as Logo.
Initially you use it as a keyboard controlled etch-a-sketch.
When you show that you can define a subroute 'Box' that draws a square, then a subroutine 'window' that draws a 4 pane mullioned window either the eyes light up, or you get a 'so what, I want to play hockey' look.Sure there are some kids who would dig programming right away at age 12 -- I suspect that a large fraction of /.
readers are from that group.
But most kids aren't.If you don't work with something like LOGO, wait a couple years.
Mean while, show him examples, and give him stories where the hero is a programmer.
(Short list that...)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565484</id>
	<title>There in only one rule:</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1261907880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Create the perfect motivating balance between too hard and too easy. The more close to perfect, the more motivation it will create.</p><p>That can really be all there is, so someone has fun, is motivated and interested.</p><p>Of course you can make it into a game, by<br>seeing it as a toy (something that you manipulate out of curiosity, and that is fun [happiness with surprises]),<br>and then creating goals to be reached by problem solving. (Usual goals are, to understand/learn interesting things, and to have fun.)</p><p>I&rsquo;d say some LEGO robotics, controlled by Python, should be a fun toy.<br>And creating &ldquo;levels&rdquo; with goals, obstacles and surprises, and an end boss/level should make it a good game.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)<br>Add real rewards with a value, and you got tons of motivation too. ^^</p><p>P.S.: Be sure that you teach him social dynamics and how to handle girls with the same approach next year, so he does not end up in your basement. ^^ (Programming and being good with girls are not mutually exclusive. That&rsquo;s just what we are socially conditioned to think. But what stops you from doing both? Nothing. You just have to allow yourself to go full scale. How hard is it, to decide that you will be like that. And then just <em>be</em> like that.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Create the perfect motivating balance between too hard and too easy .
The more close to perfect , the more motivation it will create.That can really be all there is , so someone has fun , is motivated and interested.Of course you can make it into a game , byseeing it as a toy ( something that you manipulate out of curiosity , and that is fun [ happiness with surprises ] ) ,and then creating goals to be reached by problem solving .
( Usual goals are , to understand/learn interesting things , and to have fun .
) I    d say some LEGO robotics , controlled by Python , should be a fun toy.And creating    levels    with goals , obstacles and surprises , and an end boss/level should make it a good game .
: ) Add real rewards with a value , and you got tons of motivation too .
^ ^ P.S. : Be sure that you teach him social dynamics and how to handle girls with the same approach next year , so he does not end up in your basement .
^ ^ ( Programming and being good with girls are not mutually exclusive .
That    s just what we are socially conditioned to think .
But what stops you from doing both ?
Nothing. You just have to allow yourself to go full scale .
How hard is it , to decide that you will be like that .
And then just be like that .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Create the perfect motivating balance between too hard and too easy.
The more close to perfect, the more motivation it will create.That can really be all there is, so someone has fun, is motivated and interested.Of course you can make it into a game, byseeing it as a toy (something that you manipulate out of curiosity, and that is fun [happiness with surprises]),and then creating goals to be reached by problem solving.
(Usual goals are, to understand/learn interesting things, and to have fun.
)I’d say some LEGO robotics, controlled by Python, should be a fun toy.And creating “levels” with goals, obstacles and surprises, and an end boss/level should make it a good game.
:)Add real rewards with a value, and you got tons of motivation too.
^^P.S.: Be sure that you teach him social dynamics and how to handle girls with the same approach next year, so he does not end up in your basement.
^^ (Programming and being good with girls are not mutually exclusive.
That’s just what we are socially conditioned to think.
But what stops you from doing both?
Nothing. You just have to allow yourself to go full scale.
How hard is it, to decide that you will be like that.
And then just be like that.
:)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570164</id>
	<title>something interesting to program, e.g gaming</title>
	<author>peter303</author>
	<datestamp>1262009940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Most coding is rather dull to non-prgogrammers.
Perhaps something motivational would be scripting or add-ons to a game engine to add your content.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most coding is rather dull to non-prgogrammers .
Perhaps something motivational would be scripting or add-ons to a game engine to add your content .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most coding is rather dull to non-prgogrammers.
Perhaps something motivational would be scripting or add-ons to a game engine to add your content.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565948</id>
	<title>Re:Perl</title>
	<author>Eravnrekaree</author>
	<datestamp>1261911840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously, perl is the first language i really learned well and would be a great choice.</p><p>I would also recommend seriously just HTML and then later throw in javascript to build on that. it can lead to really fast results to catch interest and has a lot of immediate application in the trendy werb page design/myspace kind of development.</p><p>Perl, it is actually easy to learn and well documented. There are few quirks but it is easy and more powerful than other languages. One just needs to remember to start off each program with $|=1; to turn on autoflush on stdio and to remember that when doing $var=func(); the return argument will always be the last returned. A few rules but nothing really that difficult to remember.</p><p>C/C++ might be better avoided witha newcomer. It could exceed the attention span with those younger programmers. A good GUI builder which can be used in a simple manner is also a good idea. TK is relatively simple but there may be simpler toolkits to use.</p><p>To really capture interest, the programming has to be straightforward and lead to instant tangible resutls so lots of additional code and formalities and having to type lots of intitialisation and set up code, can blow them out.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously , perl is the first language i really learned well and would be a great choice.I would also recommend seriously just HTML and then later throw in javascript to build on that .
it can lead to really fast results to catch interest and has a lot of immediate application in the trendy werb page design/myspace kind of development.Perl , it is actually easy to learn and well documented .
There are few quirks but it is easy and more powerful than other languages .
One just needs to remember to start off each program with $ | = 1 ; to turn on autoflush on stdio and to remember that when doing $ var = func ( ) ; the return argument will always be the last returned .
A few rules but nothing really that difficult to remember.C/C + + might be better avoided witha newcomer .
It could exceed the attention span with those younger programmers .
A good GUI builder which can be used in a simple manner is also a good idea .
TK is relatively simple but there may be simpler toolkits to use.To really capture interest , the programming has to be straightforward and lead to instant tangible resutls so lots of additional code and formalities and having to type lots of intitialisation and set up code , can blow them out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously, perl is the first language i really learned well and would be a great choice.I would also recommend seriously just HTML and then later throw in javascript to build on that.
it can lead to really fast results to catch interest and has a lot of immediate application in the trendy werb page design/myspace kind of development.Perl, it is actually easy to learn and well documented.
There are few quirks but it is easy and more powerful than other languages.
One just needs to remember to start off each program with $|=1; to turn on autoflush on stdio and to remember that when doing $var=func(); the return argument will always be the last returned.
A few rules but nothing really that difficult to remember.C/C++ might be better avoided witha newcomer.
It could exceed the attention span with those younger programmers.
A good GUI builder which can be used in a simple manner is also a good idea.
TK is relatively simple but there may be simpler toolkits to use.To really capture interest, the programming has to be straightforward and lead to instant tangible resutls so lots of additional code and formalities and having to type lots of intitialisation and set up code, can blow them out.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565002</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570704</id>
	<title>Processing anyone?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262013840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nice and easy to get some moving things onscreen, free, skills easily applied to other C-like languages later.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nice and easy to get some moving things onscreen , free , skills easily applied to other C-like languages later .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nice and easy to get some moving things onscreen, free, skills easily applied to other C-like languages later.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565436</id>
	<title>Lego Mindstorm</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261907460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lego Mindstorm comes with a great Virtual Lab for kids.  Let them visualize first.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lego Mindstorm comes with a great Virtual Lab for kids .
Let them visualize first .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lego Mindstorm comes with a great Virtual Lab for kids.
Let them visualize first.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566680</id>
	<title>You people have no freak'in clue</title>
	<author>whistlingtony</author>
	<datestamp>1261918260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Come on, seriously,</p><p>If it's not fun, he won't care. He won't give two sh1ts about libraries, OOP programming, garbage collection, etc etc etc....</p><p>If you feed him freak'in c++, he'll hate it, and he'll hate it FOREVER.</p><p>It's not about the stupid language, it's about what you DO with it.</p><p>Get a fun project, in an easy language.</p><p>Make a chat program all of your own. Then he can chat all clandestine like with his friends.</p><p>Make a program to help him encrypt and decrypt his secret stash of porn. He's a teenage boy? He has one....</p><p>How about a secret file sharing app he can use to share with his friends?</p><p>Whatever.... find a fun project for a teenage boy, and do it in an easy language. If he really takes to it, he'll eventually find his way to the harder and more "serious" languages.</p><p>Sheesh</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Come on , seriously,If it 's not fun , he wo n't care .
He wo n't give two sh1ts about libraries , OOP programming , garbage collection , etc etc etc....If you feed him freak'in c + + , he 'll hate it , and he 'll hate it FOREVER.It 's not about the stupid language , it 's about what you DO with it.Get a fun project , in an easy language.Make a chat program all of your own .
Then he can chat all clandestine like with his friends.Make a program to help him encrypt and decrypt his secret stash of porn .
He 's a teenage boy ?
He has one....How about a secret file sharing app he can use to share with his friends ? Whatever.... find a fun project for a teenage boy , and do it in an easy language .
If he really takes to it , he 'll eventually find his way to the harder and more " serious " languages.Sheesh</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Come on, seriously,If it's not fun, he won't care.
He won't give two sh1ts about libraries, OOP programming, garbage collection, etc etc etc....If you feed him freak'in c++, he'll hate it, and he'll hate it FOREVER.It's not about the stupid language, it's about what you DO with it.Get a fun project, in an easy language.Make a chat program all of your own.
Then he can chat all clandestine like with his friends.Make a program to help him encrypt and decrypt his secret stash of porn.
He's a teenage boy?
He has one....How about a secret file sharing app he can use to share with his friends?Whatever.... find a fun project for a teenage boy, and do it in an easy language.
If he really takes to it, he'll eventually find his way to the harder and more "serious" languages.Sheesh</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567848</id>
	<title>Try something very easy to start off the basics</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261928940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Before you dive into anything majorly complicated, maybe give Scratch a try. You can download it at scratch.mit.edu. It has a very kid friendly interface, and to program you snap blocks together to form code. I started using Scratch at about 12 and it really helped me understand some of the coding concepts, and I am now moving on to C#, and I'll tell you it is easier because I started by using Scratch.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Before you dive into anything majorly complicated , maybe give Scratch a try .
You can download it at scratch.mit.edu .
It has a very kid friendly interface , and to program you snap blocks together to form code .
I started using Scratch at about 12 and it really helped me understand some of the coding concepts , and I am now moving on to C # , and I 'll tell you it is easier because I started by using Scratch .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Before you dive into anything majorly complicated, maybe give Scratch a try.
You can download it at scratch.mit.edu.
It has a very kid friendly interface, and to program you snap blocks together to form code.
I started using Scratch at about 12 and it really helped me understand some of the coding concepts, and I am now moving on to C#, and I'll tell you it is easier because I started by using Scratch.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565550</id>
	<title>Gamemaker, Scratch, or Java</title>
	<author>LewisDaniel</author>
	<datestamp>1261908540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yoyogames gamemaker (http://www.yoyogames.com/) is an incredibly fun platform to learn, and its OO. Scratch (http://scratch.mit.edu/) is even easier. For more of a challenge try java or python. A challenging but very interesting intermediate-beginners project could be: design Conways Game of Life (http://www.ibiblio.org/lifepatterns/).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yoyogames gamemaker ( http : //www.yoyogames.com/ ) is an incredibly fun platform to learn , and its OO .
Scratch ( http : //scratch.mit.edu/ ) is even easier .
For more of a challenge try java or python .
A challenging but very interesting intermediate-beginners project could be : design Conways Game of Life ( http : //www.ibiblio.org/lifepatterns/ ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yoyogames gamemaker (http://www.yoyogames.com/) is an incredibly fun platform to learn, and its OO.
Scratch (http://scratch.mit.edu/) is even easier.
For more of a challenge try java or python.
A challenging but very interesting intermediate-beginners project could be: design Conways Game of Life (http://www.ibiblio.org/lifepatterns/).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566550</id>
	<title>TCL/Tk?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261917120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How about TCL? Very readable syntax, no whitespace use, cross-platform, and a ton of ready-made widgets to give him some quick GUIs that might keep his attention.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about TCL ?
Very readable syntax , no whitespace use , cross-platform , and a ton of ready-made widgets to give him some quick GUIs that might keep his attention .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about TCL?
Very readable syntax, no whitespace use, cross-platform, and a ton of ready-made widgets to give him some quick GUIs that might keep his attention.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566718</id>
	<title>BASIC and/or Perl</title>
	<author>EightBits</author>
	<datestamp>1261918620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Perl is a very good language to learn as a beginner.  You don't have to go into all the cool uber geek tricks to make it do incredible amounts of work.  The syntax is easy to learn for simple programs.</p><p>And I might be a bit biased here, but why not dish out a dose of BASIC on an emulator?  While BASIC 2.0 on a C64 doesn't provide good graphics and audio controls, BASIC 7.0 on a C128 does.  Very importantly is that this could give some pretty instant gratification to a kid who might be interested in writing a game.  The VICE emulator provides C128 emulation that would be good for this.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Perl is a very good language to learn as a beginner .
You do n't have to go into all the cool uber geek tricks to make it do incredible amounts of work .
The syntax is easy to learn for simple programs.And I might be a bit biased here , but why not dish out a dose of BASIC on an emulator ?
While BASIC 2.0 on a C64 does n't provide good graphics and audio controls , BASIC 7.0 on a C128 does .
Very importantly is that this could give some pretty instant gratification to a kid who might be interested in writing a game .
The VICE emulator provides C128 emulation that would be good for this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perl is a very good language to learn as a beginner.
You don't have to go into all the cool uber geek tricks to make it do incredible amounts of work.
The syntax is easy to learn for simple programs.And I might be a bit biased here, but why not dish out a dose of BASIC on an emulator?
While BASIC 2.0 on a C64 doesn't provide good graphics and audio controls, BASIC 7.0 on a C128 does.
Very importantly is that this could give some pretty instant gratification to a kid who might be interested in writing a game.
The VICE emulator provides C128 emulation that would be good for this.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30600494</id>
	<title>Re:Cold, hard X86 Assembly.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259840580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>yeah, he's freakin' 12 already! Give him an Intel manual and tell him to start reading for f*q's sake!</p><p>Buy him a TI-86 or TI-92 calculator (none of that ti84/ti83 nonsense..) and get him playing drug wars &amp; tetris.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>yeah , he 's freakin ' 12 already !
Give him an Intel manual and tell him to start reading for f * q 's sake ! Buy him a TI-86 or TI-92 calculator ( none of that ti84/ti83 nonsense.. ) and get him playing drug wars &amp; tetris .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>yeah, he's freakin' 12 already!
Give him an Intel manual and tell him to start reading for f*q's sake!Buy him a TI-86 or TI-92 calculator (none of that ti84/ti83 nonsense..) and get him playing drug wars &amp; tetris.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564998</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565546</id>
	<title>Re:plain C, python, or ruby</title>
	<author>dkf</author>
	<datestamp>1261908480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There's nothing particularly wrong with plain C as a first language. (I'd avoid all the intricacies of C++ syntax for a first-timer. The OO stuff is, in  my opinion, totally unnecessary for a first-time programmer to learn.)</p></div><p>Plain C isn't as good as you might think for a new programmer. The problem is that you don't get very far with it at all without having to deal with pointers, and they're plain difficult to start with. (I didn't grok pointers until I'd first understood both addressing in assembly and references in Pascal, and even then it took me a while to get fluent. Being stuck on a segmented architecture didn't help though...)</p><p>I recommend a scripting language of some kind. Preferably one that gives an interpretive loop so that you can have an idea and try it out immediately; that's very rewarding and makes it easy to learn by mistakes. Compiled languages can come later. (I don't know when to introduce the high-power concepts like objects and pointers and stuff like that; it might be better to let them start to hit the limits of doing stuff the simple way before unveiling the deeper mysteries.)</p><p>You're dead right to avoid C++. That's a language that really isn't beginner oriented in any way at all.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's nothing particularly wrong with plain C as a first language .
( I 'd avoid all the intricacies of C + + syntax for a first-timer .
The OO stuff is , in my opinion , totally unnecessary for a first-time programmer to learn .
) Plain C is n't as good as you might think for a new programmer .
The problem is that you do n't get very far with it at all without having to deal with pointers , and they 're plain difficult to start with .
( I did n't grok pointers until I 'd first understood both addressing in assembly and references in Pascal , and even then it took me a while to get fluent .
Being stuck on a segmented architecture did n't help though... ) I recommend a scripting language of some kind .
Preferably one that gives an interpretive loop so that you can have an idea and try it out immediately ; that 's very rewarding and makes it easy to learn by mistakes .
Compiled languages can come later .
( I do n't know when to introduce the high-power concepts like objects and pointers and stuff like that ; it might be better to let them start to hit the limits of doing stuff the simple way before unveiling the deeper mysteries .
) You 're dead right to avoid C + + .
That 's a language that really is n't beginner oriented in any way at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's nothing particularly wrong with plain C as a first language.
(I'd avoid all the intricacies of C++ syntax for a first-timer.
The OO stuff is, in  my opinion, totally unnecessary for a first-time programmer to learn.
)Plain C isn't as good as you might think for a new programmer.
The problem is that you don't get very far with it at all without having to deal with pointers, and they're plain difficult to start with.
(I didn't grok pointers until I'd first understood both addressing in assembly and references in Pascal, and even then it took me a while to get fluent.
Being stuck on a segmented architecture didn't help though...)I recommend a scripting language of some kind.
Preferably one that gives an interpretive loop so that you can have an idea and try it out immediately; that's very rewarding and makes it easy to learn by mistakes.
Compiled languages can come later.
(I don't know when to introduce the high-power concepts like objects and pointers and stuff like that; it might be better to let them start to hit the limits of doing stuff the simple way before unveiling the deeper mysteries.
)You're dead right to avoid C++.
That's a language that really isn't beginner oriented in any way at all.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564904</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568846</id>
	<title>small basic</title>
	<author>nerdyalien</author>
	<datestamp>1261943940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I started off with GW-Basic.</p><p>I know we slash-dotters to some extent dislike M$. But they have something just to address this issue. They call it the "Small Basic"</p><p><a href="http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx" title="microsoft.com" rel="nofollow">http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx</a> [microsoft.com]</p><p>Syntaxes are pretty similar to C# style. Overall, not bad. Good documentation too. I managed to get my little sister hands on with programming using Small Basic.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I started off with GW-Basic.I know we slash-dotters to some extent dislike M $ .
But they have something just to address this issue .
They call it the " Small Basic " http : //msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx [ microsoft.com ] Syntaxes are pretty similar to C # style .
Overall , not bad .
Good documentation too .
I managed to get my little sister hands on with programming using Small Basic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started off with GW-Basic.I know we slash-dotters to some extent dislike M$.
But they have something just to address this issue.
They call it the "Small Basic"http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx [microsoft.com]Syntaxes are pretty similar to C# style.
Overall, not bad.
Good documentation too.
I managed to get my little sister hands on with programming using Small Basic.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568622</id>
	<title>here's my take</title>
	<author>buddyglass</author>
	<datestamp>1261940280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First off, my background is pretty similar to the progression you mention:  BASIC, Pascal, then C/C++ and Java.  Here, then, are my general suggestions:</p><ul> <li>Limit yourself to languages that are widely used to do "real work", whether in the marketplace or in a scientific setting.  That's not to say these the best options from a teaching standpoint, but they give the added bonus of the kid learning something practical in addition to fundamental concepts.  This would exclude languages like BASIC, Pascal, Scala, Ruby, Lisp/Scheme, Miranda, Haskell, etc.</li><li>Exclude languages that, while still widely used, are largely employed only for legacy work.  This would exclude VB, COBOL, perl, Ada, etc.</li><li>Pick a language that lets you teach the object-oriented paradigm.</li></ul><p>Based on these, I'd go with Java or C# to start.  Maybe C++, but Java would be easier to learn.  If you do go with Java, I'd strongly suggest he follow it up with plain-old C, just to get a feel for what life's like when you have to do your own memory management, don't have objects, don't have built-in synchronization primitives, don't have strong typing or type safety, etc. etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First off , my background is pretty similar to the progression you mention : BASIC , Pascal , then C/C + + and Java .
Here , then , are my general suggestions : Limit yourself to languages that are widely used to do " real work " , whether in the marketplace or in a scientific setting .
That 's not to say these the best options from a teaching standpoint , but they give the added bonus of the kid learning something practical in addition to fundamental concepts .
This would exclude languages like BASIC , Pascal , Scala , Ruby , Lisp/Scheme , Miranda , Haskell , etc.Exclude languages that , while still widely used , are largely employed only for legacy work .
This would exclude VB , COBOL , perl , Ada , etc.Pick a language that lets you teach the object-oriented paradigm.Based on these , I 'd go with Java or C # to start .
Maybe C + + , but Java would be easier to learn .
If you do go with Java , I 'd strongly suggest he follow it up with plain-old C , just to get a feel for what life 's like when you have to do your own memory management , do n't have objects , do n't have built-in synchronization primitives , do n't have strong typing or type safety , etc .
etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First off, my background is pretty similar to the progression you mention:  BASIC, Pascal, then C/C++ and Java.
Here, then, are my general suggestions: Limit yourself to languages that are widely used to do "real work", whether in the marketplace or in a scientific setting.
That's not to say these the best options from a teaching standpoint, but they give the added bonus of the kid learning something practical in addition to fundamental concepts.
This would exclude languages like BASIC, Pascal, Scala, Ruby, Lisp/Scheme, Miranda, Haskell, etc.Exclude languages that, while still widely used, are largely employed only for legacy work.
This would exclude VB, COBOL, perl, Ada, etc.Pick a language that lets you teach the object-oriented paradigm.Based on these, I'd go with Java or C# to start.
Maybe C++, but Java would be easier to learn.
If you do go with Java, I'd strongly suggest he follow it up with plain-old C, just to get a feel for what life's like when you have to do your own memory management, don't have objects, don't have built-in synchronization primitives, don't have strong typing or type safety, etc.
etc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568278</id>
	<title>Re:Lego Mindstorms</title>
	<author>smithwd</author>
	<datestamp>1261934640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My son started on scratch from MIT when he was 7 or 8.  Scratch is similar to Lego Mindstorm - in that it is a simple visual programming languages PLUS it is free. He spent a lot of time developing simple games on it.  From there, we went on to buying Lego Mindstorm after he demonstrated interest and basic competencies in Scratch. However, when he was 9, he started finding these simple visual programming languages to be too limiting.
<p>
We then tried a simple C-like language for use with a Lego Mindstorm - but this was too much for him to learn at once.
</p><p>
After some research, I downloaded a trial version of Phrogram - which I wound up buying and he used for quite a while.  It is derived from Kids Programming Language (KPL) and targets teaching programming to high school aged kids.  The language comes with an IDE with a compiler and debugger - and makes it fairly simple to do 2D and 3D graphics games.  My son loved this language and has been writing software in it for about 8 months.  However, he has recently been finding the Phrogram development libraries to be rather limiting and was getting frustrated with it -  particularly in lack of GUI libraries.
</p><p>
So more research on languages. He recently switched to working with Process, which is a simple Java-based language and associated development environment with more extensive library support.  However, it lacks an integrated debugger.  I believe that stepping from Process to Java is probably a pretty small step, but we have not gotten there yet.
</p><p>
My son has not gone back to learning C/C++ yet, but I think he will get there eventually.  He is only 10 - and he will have plenty of time to get there at his own pace.
</p><p>
I had looked at Python and Lisp for him - but I wanted something that was a little more kid friendly. My son loves to show off his projects - and they have all been visually oriented with 2D or 3D interfaces.  So picking a language with strong support for graphics is important for him.
</p><p>
Most of his learning has been unsupervised.  He spends a lot of time looking at code examples, borrowing ideas from these examples and building from there,  I do spend time helping him figure out code bugs, etc. - but he has been self motivated in terms of what sorts of applications he develops.
</p><p>
As you look at different language options, you need to consider a number of things - why do they want to learn to program?  Are the language and development libraries well documented and organized in a way that a kid can use?  Are there a lot of examples to work with?  Do things work reliably and predictably? (For example, a buggy environment such as the C-based environment for Lego Mindstorm was a big negative.) Is it easy to get some kind of visual reward or feedback (e.g., easy to compile and test a program and see it working)?
</p><p>
And - remember - positive feedback and encouragement coupled with lots of patience are probably the most important part of his educational process.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My son started on scratch from MIT when he was 7 or 8 .
Scratch is similar to Lego Mindstorm - in that it is a simple visual programming languages PLUS it is free .
He spent a lot of time developing simple games on it .
From there , we went on to buying Lego Mindstorm after he demonstrated interest and basic competencies in Scratch .
However , when he was 9 , he started finding these simple visual programming languages to be too limiting .
We then tried a simple C-like language for use with a Lego Mindstorm - but this was too much for him to learn at once .
After some research , I downloaded a trial version of Phrogram - which I wound up buying and he used for quite a while .
It is derived from Kids Programming Language ( KPL ) and targets teaching programming to high school aged kids .
The language comes with an IDE with a compiler and debugger - and makes it fairly simple to do 2D and 3D graphics games .
My son loved this language and has been writing software in it for about 8 months .
However , he has recently been finding the Phrogram development libraries to be rather limiting and was getting frustrated with it - particularly in lack of GUI libraries .
So more research on languages .
He recently switched to working with Process , which is a simple Java-based language and associated development environment with more extensive library support .
However , it lacks an integrated debugger .
I believe that stepping from Process to Java is probably a pretty small step , but we have not gotten there yet .
My son has not gone back to learning C/C + + yet , but I think he will get there eventually .
He is only 10 - and he will have plenty of time to get there at his own pace .
I had looked at Python and Lisp for him - but I wanted something that was a little more kid friendly .
My son loves to show off his projects - and they have all been visually oriented with 2D or 3D interfaces .
So picking a language with strong support for graphics is important for him .
Most of his learning has been unsupervised .
He spends a lot of time looking at code examples , borrowing ideas from these examples and building from there , I do spend time helping him figure out code bugs , etc .
- but he has been self motivated in terms of what sorts of applications he develops .
As you look at different language options , you need to consider a number of things - why do they want to learn to program ?
Are the language and development libraries well documented and organized in a way that a kid can use ?
Are there a lot of examples to work with ?
Do things work reliably and predictably ?
( For example , a buggy environment such as the C-based environment for Lego Mindstorm was a big negative .
) Is it easy to get some kind of visual reward or feedback ( e.g. , easy to compile and test a program and see it working ) ?
And - remember - positive feedback and encouragement coupled with lots of patience are probably the most important part of his educational process .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My son started on scratch from MIT when he was 7 or 8.
Scratch is similar to Lego Mindstorm - in that it is a simple visual programming languages PLUS it is free.
He spent a lot of time developing simple games on it.
From there, we went on to buying Lego Mindstorm after he demonstrated interest and basic competencies in Scratch.
However, when he was 9, he started finding these simple visual programming languages to be too limiting.
We then tried a simple C-like language for use with a Lego Mindstorm - but this was too much for him to learn at once.
After some research, I downloaded a trial version of Phrogram - which I wound up buying and he used for quite a while.
It is derived from Kids Programming Language (KPL) and targets teaching programming to high school aged kids.
The language comes with an IDE with a compiler and debugger - and makes it fairly simple to do 2D and 3D graphics games.
My son loved this language and has been writing software in it for about 8 months.
However, he has recently been finding the Phrogram development libraries to be rather limiting and was getting frustrated with it -  particularly in lack of GUI libraries.
So more research on languages.
He recently switched to working with Process, which is a simple Java-based language and associated development environment with more extensive library support.
However, it lacks an integrated debugger.
I believe that stepping from Process to Java is probably a pretty small step, but we have not gotten there yet.
My son has not gone back to learning C/C++ yet, but I think he will get there eventually.
He is only 10 - and he will have plenty of time to get there at his own pace.
I had looked at Python and Lisp for him - but I wanted something that was a little more kid friendly.
My son loves to show off his projects - and they have all been visually oriented with 2D or 3D interfaces.
So picking a language with strong support for graphics is important for him.
Most of his learning has been unsupervised.
He spends a lot of time looking at code examples, borrowing ideas from these examples and building from there,  I do spend time helping him figure out code bugs, etc.
- but he has been self motivated in terms of what sorts of applications he develops.
As you look at different language options, you need to consider a number of things - why do they want to learn to program?
Are the language and development libraries well documented and organized in a way that a kid can use?
Are there a lot of examples to work with?
Do things work reliably and predictably?
(For example, a buggy environment such as the C-based environment for Lego Mindstorm was a big negative.
) Is it easy to get some kind of visual reward or feedback (e.g., easy to compile and test a program and see it working)?
And - remember - positive feedback and encouragement coupled with lots of patience are probably the most important part of his educational process.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565422</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570804</id>
	<title>plenty of options out there</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262014440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Scratch 2D http://scratch.mit.edu/ &amp; Alice 3D http://www.alice.org/<br>Pleos - http://www.pleoworld.com/Home.aspx<br>http://csunplugged.org - teach without a computer, such as counting binary on your fingers</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Scratch 2D http : //scratch.mit.edu/ &amp; Alice 3D http : //www.alice.org/Pleos - http : //www.pleoworld.com/Home.aspxhttp : //csunplugged.org - teach without a computer , such as counting binary on your fingers</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Scratch 2D http://scratch.mit.edu/ &amp; Alice 3D http://www.alice.org/Pleos - http://www.pleoworld.com/Home.aspxhttp://csunplugged.org - teach without a computer, such as counting binary on your fingers</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570338</id>
	<title>Perl</title>
	<author>motorhead</author>
	<datestamp>1262011020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Read the camel book and have some fun.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Read the camel book and have some fun .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Read the camel book and have some fun.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566358</id>
	<title>alice?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261915440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://www.alice.org/" title="alice.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.alice.org/</a> [alice.org]</p><p>isn't that one of the best starting points to teach object orientation, concepts etc, first?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //www.alice.org/ [ alice.org ] is n't that one of the best starting points to teach object orientation , concepts etc , first ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://www.alice.org/ [alice.org]isn't that one of the best starting points to teach object orientation, concepts etc, first?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566536</id>
	<title>Turing</title>
	<author>goobermaster</author>
	<datestamp>1261917000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As many above posters have stated, when trying to get a much younger person interested in something, immediate and observable results are important.</p><p>As a result, I would recommend Turing as the introductory language. While I may be a bit biased since this is the language I learned programming on, I truly think it is an excellent first language.</p><p>It has a very simple syntax that nonetheless teaches the basics of if/else blocks, loops, decision trees, and more and because it is so simple, it is very easy to quickly get into and program text, graphics or animated environments. It also comes with its own IDE that auto-indents and performs many tasks that help a beginning programmer, so little more than the base environment is required.</p><p>While the person in question should of course move relatively quickly to a real and industry-utilized language like C/Java/etc Turing can teach the fundamentals of programming in a very easy to learn package. I can only speak for myself, but had I been introduced straightaway into C, I believe I would have encountered many more difficulties than I would have had I not learned programming fundamentals on Turing.</p><p>Just my opinion.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As many above posters have stated , when trying to get a much younger person interested in something , immediate and observable results are important.As a result , I would recommend Turing as the introductory language .
While I may be a bit biased since this is the language I learned programming on , I truly think it is an excellent first language.It has a very simple syntax that nonetheless teaches the basics of if/else blocks , loops , decision trees , and more and because it is so simple , it is very easy to quickly get into and program text , graphics or animated environments .
It also comes with its own IDE that auto-indents and performs many tasks that help a beginning programmer , so little more than the base environment is required.While the person in question should of course move relatively quickly to a real and industry-utilized language like C/Java/etc Turing can teach the fundamentals of programming in a very easy to learn package .
I can only speak for myself , but had I been introduced straightaway into C , I believe I would have encountered many more difficulties than I would have had I not learned programming fundamentals on Turing.Just my opinion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As many above posters have stated, when trying to get a much younger person interested in something, immediate and observable results are important.As a result, I would recommend Turing as the introductory language.
While I may be a bit biased since this is the language I learned programming on, I truly think it is an excellent first language.It has a very simple syntax that nonetheless teaches the basics of if/else blocks, loops, decision trees, and more and because it is so simple, it is very easy to quickly get into and program text, graphics or animated environments.
It also comes with its own IDE that auto-indents and performs many tasks that help a beginning programmer, so little more than the base environment is required.While the person in question should of course move relatively quickly to a real and industry-utilized language like C/Java/etc Turing can teach the fundamentals of programming in a very easy to learn package.
I can only speak for myself, but had I been introduced straightaway into C, I believe I would have encountered many more difficulties than I would have had I not learned programming fundamentals on Turing.Just my opinion.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564924</id>
	<title>Python+pygame</title>
	<author>sammyF70</author>
	<datestamp>1261947480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>If he has any interest in programming, then Python in combination with pygame is probably the way to go. Python is easy to learn, and pygame will give him instant visual (and audio) gratification. The instant gratification part is the really important bit if you want to keep his interest up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If he has any interest in programming , then Python in combination with pygame is probably the way to go .
Python is easy to learn , and pygame will give him instant visual ( and audio ) gratification .
The instant gratification part is the really important bit if you want to keep his interest up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If he has any interest in programming, then Python in combination with pygame is probably the way to go.
Python is easy to learn, and pygame will give him instant visual (and audio) gratification.
The instant gratification part is the really important bit if you want to keep his interest up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567018</id>
	<title>Re:Go with ActionScript 3.0</title>
	<author>alanmusician</author>
	<datestamp>1261921020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You don't need complex memory references to take advantage of OO. And the "secret" to OO languages is most definitely not procedural programming. That statement is just absurd.

That being said, OO is generally something that developers come to to see the advantages of by getting their hands dirty with procedural programming first. OO is best learned as a solution to design challenges rather than a programming basic.

Even though PHP's OO implementation is very weak compared to languages such as Java or C#, I find it a good language to learn OO concepts, partially because of its limitations. Plus a kid can easily deploy/show off his work if he's using a web-based interface. I haven't had much experience with Flash, but from what I've seen the same is true for it also.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You do n't need complex memory references to take advantage of OO .
And the " secret " to OO languages is most definitely not procedural programming .
That statement is just absurd .
That being said , OO is generally something that developers come to to see the advantages of by getting their hands dirty with procedural programming first .
OO is best learned as a solution to design challenges rather than a programming basic .
Even though PHP 's OO implementation is very weak compared to languages such as Java or C # , I find it a good language to learn OO concepts , partially because of its limitations .
Plus a kid can easily deploy/show off his work if he 's using a web-based interface .
I have n't had much experience with Flash , but from what I 've seen the same is true for it also .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You don't need complex memory references to take advantage of OO.
And the "secret" to OO languages is most definitely not procedural programming.
That statement is just absurd.
That being said, OO is generally something that developers come to to see the advantages of by getting their hands dirty with procedural programming first.
OO is best learned as a solution to design challenges rather than a programming basic.
Even though PHP's OO implementation is very weak compared to languages such as Java or C#, I find it a good language to learn OO concepts, partially because of its limitations.
Plus a kid can easily deploy/show off his work if he's using a web-based interface.
I haven't had much experience with Flash, but from what I've seen the same is true for it also.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565296</id>
	<title>Re:plain C, python, or ruby</title>
	<author>BikeHelmet</author>
	<datestamp>1261906560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>One thing to think about is what programming projects he's interested in doing, and make sure he's set up for success. <b>A lot of kids that age want to program games, but programming a real-time video game requires a *lot* of skills.</b> Whatever project he wants to do, make sure you have a combination of OS, development environment, and libraries that will work.</p> </div><p>This is a very good point, which is why I recommend <a href="http://www.clickteam.com/website/usa/multimediafusion2.html" title="clickteam.com">MMF</a> [clickteam.com]. (or even TGF) I started with it - it made creating games quite simple. At the same time I learned javascript which helped for webpages. Then one day I tried making a game in javascript. The game worked, but ran like shit, because Chrome didn't exist at the time.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P Shortly after that I started learning Java/C. I settled on Java, because of its strictness. Javascript is very lax, so although the syntax looks like C, you can't do any of the same stuff in actual C. And C has an extra symbol for every single command. Java kept it simpler. (just dots, no &amp; * **<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:: -&gt; . etc.)</p><p>Looking back, I'd probably go with Python this time around. All my java code going back years (before looking into Python) matches Python indentation.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>One thing to think about is what programming projects he 's interested in doing , and make sure he 's set up for success .
A lot of kids that age want to program games , but programming a real-time video game requires a * lot * of skills .
Whatever project he wants to do , make sure you have a combination of OS , development environment , and libraries that will work .
This is a very good point , which is why I recommend MMF [ clickteam.com ] .
( or even TGF ) I started with it - it made creating games quite simple .
At the same time I learned javascript which helped for webpages .
Then one day I tried making a game in javascript .
The game worked , but ran like shit , because Chrome did n't exist at the time .
: P Shortly after that I started learning Java/C .
I settled on Java , because of its strictness .
Javascript is very lax , so although the syntax looks like C , you ca n't do any of the same stuff in actual C. And C has an extra symbol for every single command .
Java kept it simpler .
( just dots , no &amp; * * * : : - &gt; .
etc. ) Looking back , I 'd probably go with Python this time around .
All my java code going back years ( before looking into Python ) matches Python indentation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One thing to think about is what programming projects he's interested in doing, and make sure he's set up for success.
A lot of kids that age want to program games, but programming a real-time video game requires a *lot* of skills.
Whatever project he wants to do, make sure you have a combination of OS, development environment, and libraries that will work.
This is a very good point, which is why I recommend MMF [clickteam.com].
(or even TGF) I started with it - it made creating games quite simple.
At the same time I learned javascript which helped for webpages.
Then one day I tried making a game in javascript.
The game worked, but ran like shit, because Chrome didn't exist at the time.
:P Shortly after that I started learning Java/C.
I settled on Java, because of its strictness.
Javascript is very lax, so although the syntax looks like C, you can't do any of the same stuff in actual C. And C has an extra symbol for every single command.
Java kept it simpler.
(just dots, no &amp; * ** :: -&gt; .
etc.)Looking back, I'd probably go with Python this time around.
All my java code going back years (before looking into Python) matches Python indentation.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564904</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30584350</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262114340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Along the same lines, though in a less contradictory sense... Get him involved in modifications to existing interests, such as some basic changes to an open source game (the input files now, later maybe some of the control/logic structures), or toy around with an example within a game engine. I was toying around with Doom mods long before I was able to actually write C/C++.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Along the same lines , though in a less contradictory sense... Get him involved in modifications to existing interests , such as some basic changes to an open source game ( the input files now , later maybe some of the control/logic structures ) , or toy around with an example within a game engine .
I was toying around with Doom mods long before I was able to actually write C/C + + .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Along the same lines, though in a less contradictory sense... Get him involved in modifications to existing interests, such as some basic changes to an open source game (the input files now, later maybe some of the control/logic structures), or toy around with an example within a game engine.
I was toying around with Doom mods long before I was able to actually write C/C++.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565504</id>
	<title>Pick something actually designed with kids in mind</title>
	<author>blamanj</author>
	<datestamp>1261908060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>like <a href="http://www.stagecast.com/" title="stagecast.com">Stagecast Creator</a> [stagecast.com].</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>like Stagecast Creator [ stagecast.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>like Stagecast Creator [stagecast.com].</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565166</id>
	<title>Start with "Free Software"</title>
	<author>Deorus</author>
	<datestamp>1261905660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Get him to use Linux, and if he likes that, then start explaining how things work.  Get him to do some basic stuff with sockets in C once he's comfortable with a Unix environment and the curiousity will evolve naturally.  I would personally not put him in contact with any higher level programming paradigms just yet as he might get overwhelmed with way too many concepts, let him get used to the way computers work close to the hardware first, then introduce him to object oriented programming using a language of your choice (I would follow with C++, but that's my preference) and then slowly introduce dynamically typed languages and functional concepts to him.  Whatever you do, just make sure that his bases are all properly laid before moving on to the next level.  I believe C is a good starting language because it abstracts the programmer from architecture specifics without abstracting them from the fundamental way all computers work, and people get motivated when they understand that what they're playing with are the tools that everyone uses to build real stuff.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Get him to use Linux , and if he likes that , then start explaining how things work .
Get him to do some basic stuff with sockets in C once he 's comfortable with a Unix environment and the curiousity will evolve naturally .
I would personally not put him in contact with any higher level programming paradigms just yet as he might get overwhelmed with way too many concepts , let him get used to the way computers work close to the hardware first , then introduce him to object oriented programming using a language of your choice ( I would follow with C + + , but that 's my preference ) and then slowly introduce dynamically typed languages and functional concepts to him .
Whatever you do , just make sure that his bases are all properly laid before moving on to the next level .
I believe C is a good starting language because it abstracts the programmer from architecture specifics without abstracting them from the fundamental way all computers work , and people get motivated when they understand that what they 're playing with are the tools that everyone uses to build real stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get him to use Linux, and if he likes that, then start explaining how things work.
Get him to do some basic stuff with sockets in C once he's comfortable with a Unix environment and the curiousity will evolve naturally.
I would personally not put him in contact with any higher level programming paradigms just yet as he might get overwhelmed with way too many concepts, let him get used to the way computers work close to the hardware first, then introduce him to object oriented programming using a language of your choice (I would follow with C++, but that's my preference) and then slowly introduce dynamically typed languages and functional concepts to him.
Whatever you do, just make sure that his bases are all properly laid before moving on to the next level.
I believe C is a good starting language because it abstracts the programmer from architecture specifics without abstracting them from the fundamental way all computers work, and people get motivated when they understand that what they're playing with are the tools that everyone uses to build real stuff.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567940</id>
	<title>Shoes...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261930080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://shoes.heroku.com/" title="heroku.com" rel="nofollow">Shoes</a> [heroku.com] (a Ruby environment) is a great concept. If only the great why hadn't left it behind in its current messy state. <a href="http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/155203" title="linux.com" rel="nofollow">Here's a short article</a> [linux.com] about Shoes and two more programming environments for kids.</p><p>Captcha: kinder</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Shoes [ heroku.com ] ( a Ruby environment ) is a great concept .
If only the great why had n't left it behind in its current messy state .
Here 's a short article [ linux.com ] about Shoes and two more programming environments for kids.Captcha : kinder</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Shoes [heroku.com] (a Ruby environment) is a great concept.
If only the great why hadn't left it behind in its current messy state.
Here's a short article [linux.com] about Shoes and two more programming environments for kids.Captcha: kinder</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30577386</id>
	<title>How to teach a 12 year old to program?</title>
	<author>ignavus</author>
	<datestamp>1262005620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Easy. Teach an eleven year old to program, and wait until he turns twelve!</p><p>And before you ask the obvious question: you teach a ten year old and wait until he turns eleven.</p><p>Sigh. Some people just don't get recursion.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Easy .
Teach an eleven year old to program , and wait until he turns twelve ! And before you ask the obvious question : you teach a ten year old and wait until he turns eleven.Sigh .
Some people just do n't get recursion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Easy.
Teach an eleven year old to program, and wait until he turns twelve!And before you ask the obvious question: you teach a ten year old and wait until he turns eleven.Sigh.
Some people just don't get recursion.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30578250</id>
	<title>does he have any interest in programming?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262012820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The kick I got from modifying Commodore VIC20 BASIC programs was that I could easily make it do things.  For me, creating a loop where x was incremented and printing out the correct final value was just fascinating all in of itself.  If the little-brother has no interest in such minutae he'll likely be a very poor programmer.</p><p>If I allow myself to assume that the whole point is a reaction to a request from the 12 yr old, and not as it appears simply another of those HowToTeachKidsProgramming.post("/.") or worse a misguided attempt to make the little-one into a facade of the older-one then I would advise this course of action:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ask him to describe delivering a newspaper (or some other manageable short task).  First thing you'll notice is he thinks about delivering newspapers, not just a single newspaper.  Then he'll spin about with monster robotic solutions.  He'll not initially notice that there is an address lookup to the routine.  Probably traffic avoidance will be his focus but properties have boundaries and some customers get really aggravated when you don't keep to the concrete walks. Point is, it's fairly hard.  And harder to explain.</p><p>In short, the best language to start a pre-pubescent or adolescent into programming is his native spoken language.</p><p>If I allow myself a further extension and consider how to nurture a beginner who has interest and maybe has poked (see what I did there?!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;) around a little with programming environments or tools and has been mostly unsuccessful, I would suggest a shell, even command.com if necessary.  I think being able to list and manipulate files and iterate through file directory hierarchies poses enough of a challenge to assess the student's organizational and motivational resources.</p><p>I would urge that an early lecture would cover Leverage (effort vs. work done).  The right tool and language for the right job is an unbeatable combination.  He should know early-on that C++ is not something to ftp files into your database, usually.</p><p>Do put him in front of the environment early on, even if you advise that it may seem too hard at first.  The newspaper example can be redirected as a copy a file shell script.  And you can show him how to stub out the address lookup (and explain that such 'hard-coded constants are a bad thing'.  And you can grow that into a full-blown model of the domain, actually.</p><p>It's not about language.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The kick I got from modifying Commodore VIC20 BASIC programs was that I could easily make it do things .
For me , creating a loop where x was incremented and printing out the correct final value was just fascinating all in of itself .
If the little-brother has no interest in such minutae he 'll likely be a very poor programmer.If I allow myself to assume that the whole point is a reaction to a request from the 12 yr old , and not as it appears simply another of those HowToTeachKidsProgramming.post ( " / .
" ) or worse a misguided attempt to make the little-one into a facade of the older-one then I would advise this course of action :       Ask him to describe delivering a newspaper ( or some other manageable short task ) .
First thing you 'll notice is he thinks about delivering newspapers , not just a single newspaper .
Then he 'll spin about with monster robotic solutions .
He 'll not initially notice that there is an address lookup to the routine .
Probably traffic avoidance will be his focus but properties have boundaries and some customers get really aggravated when you do n't keep to the concrete walks .
Point is , it 's fairly hard .
And harder to explain.In short , the best language to start a pre-pubescent or adolescent into programming is his native spoken language.If I allow myself a further extension and consider how to nurture a beginner who has interest and maybe has poked ( see what I did there ? !
; ) around a little with programming environments or tools and has been mostly unsuccessful , I would suggest a shell , even command.com if necessary .
I think being able to list and manipulate files and iterate through file directory hierarchies poses enough of a challenge to assess the student 's organizational and motivational resources.I would urge that an early lecture would cover Leverage ( effort vs. work done ) .
The right tool and language for the right job is an unbeatable combination .
He should know early-on that C + + is not something to ftp files into your database , usually.Do put him in front of the environment early on , even if you advise that it may seem too hard at first .
The newspaper example can be redirected as a copy a file shell script .
And you can show him how to stub out the address lookup ( and explain that such 'hard-coded constants are a bad thing' .
And you can grow that into a full-blown model of the domain , actually.It 's not about language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The kick I got from modifying Commodore VIC20 BASIC programs was that I could easily make it do things.
For me, creating a loop where x was incremented and printing out the correct final value was just fascinating all in of itself.
If the little-brother has no interest in such minutae he'll likely be a very poor programmer.If I allow myself to assume that the whole point is a reaction to a request from the 12 yr old, and not as it appears simply another of those HowToTeachKidsProgramming.post("/.
") or worse a misguided attempt to make the little-one into a facade of the older-one then I would advise this course of action:
      Ask him to describe delivering a newspaper (or some other manageable short task).
First thing you'll notice is he thinks about delivering newspapers, not just a single newspaper.
Then he'll spin about with monster robotic solutions.
He'll not initially notice that there is an address lookup to the routine.
Probably traffic avoidance will be his focus but properties have boundaries and some customers get really aggravated when you don't keep to the concrete walks.
Point is, it's fairly hard.
And harder to explain.In short, the best language to start a pre-pubescent or adolescent into programming is his native spoken language.If I allow myself a further extension and consider how to nurture a beginner who has interest and maybe has poked (see what I did there?!
;) around a little with programming environments or tools and has been mostly unsuccessful, I would suggest a shell, even command.com if necessary.
I think being able to list and manipulate files and iterate through file directory hierarchies poses enough of a challenge to assess the student's organizational and motivational resources.I would urge that an early lecture would cover Leverage (effort vs. work done).
The right tool and language for the right job is an unbeatable combination.
He should know early-on that C++ is not something to ftp files into your database, usually.Do put him in front of the environment early on, even if you advise that it may seem too hard at first.
The newspaper example can be redirected as a copy a file shell script.
And you can show him how to stub out the address lookup (and explain that such 'hard-coded constants are a bad thing'.
And you can grow that into a full-blown model of the domain, actually.It's not about language.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571540</id>
	<title>QBasic is a good start</title>
	<author>Stregano</author>
	<datestamp>1262018340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am amazed about how many others started with QBasic like myself.  That is not a bad thing, I was just unaware and think it is cool.
<br> <br>
If the dude is interested, maybe start on QBasic.  If your brother wants to just do cool looking stuff, maybe show him how to do flash or something of that nature.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am amazed about how many others started with QBasic like myself .
That is not a bad thing , I was just unaware and think it is cool .
If the dude is interested , maybe start on QBasic .
If your brother wants to just do cool looking stuff , maybe show him how to do flash or something of that nature .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am amazed about how many others started with QBasic like myself.
That is not a bad thing, I was just unaware and think it is cool.
If the dude is interested, maybe start on QBasic.
If your brother wants to just do cool looking stuff, maybe show him how to do flash or something of that nature.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569250</id>
	<title>Re:Try what Alice has !</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261994280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is this language called Alice, I haven't tried it, but it got a captivating interface that would definitely catch the interest of kids and can really help to introduce him to proper object oriented programming and stuff in a nice interesting way... I read that they are using it in some universities to encourage female-students to take programming courses since they probably are not inclined towards programming...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is this language called Alice , I have n't tried it , but it got a captivating interface that would definitely catch the interest of kids and can really help to introduce him to proper object oriented programming and stuff in a nice interesting way... I read that they are using it in some universities to encourage female-students to take programming courses since they probably are not inclined towards programming.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is this language called Alice, I haven't tried it, but it got a captivating interface that would definitely catch the interest of kids and can really help to introduce him to proper object oriented programming and stuff in a nice interesting way... I read that they are using it in some universities to encourage female-students to take programming courses since they probably are not inclined towards programming...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566152</id>
	<title>Teach the kid, not the language</title>
	<author>raque</author>
	<datestamp>1261913520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've taught programming, part time in an elementary setting, for years, and have been a real live stay at home dad for almost 20 years. I know code and kids. Kids learn people first, things later. So teach what *you* are passionate about. A kid will spot bullshit a mile away. You can trust that your little brother knows you better than you would like. Your little brother isn't going to be learning programming, he will be learning what you like. It's the "what you like" part that is most important.</p><p>Don't worry about what language to use, all languages suck about the same amount, just in different ways. C is fine, kids have a wonderful ability with language, any language. Any kid under 14 (puberty is the dividing line) or so will pick up the syntax of any language in a few weeks. Arbitrary and weird is fine, they just go with it. In my experience kids can learn either top down or bottom up, but they have a more or less fixed attention span. You have something like 20 - 40 minutes before he will start to get antsy. (YMMV) Regular times for set amounts of time work best. He knows that Monday at 6 big brother will give him a lesson and answer that question that has been bugging him for days, or years or centuries, they're all about the same. If in 6 months he would rather find something else to do, then consider dropping it. But remember!! The discipline in a 12 year olds life is external, not internal! That really doesn't start kicking in until HIgh School.</p><p>One thing that will kill this is forgetting that he is 12, below a certain but unknown age kids just can't get certain things. You just don't know what, exactly. Just because you got it at 12 doesn't mean he will. He may get different things. Then they just go to sleep and wake up and suddenly get it. They will often deny that they ever didn't get it, it is now natural and part of them. It's magic and frustrating as hell.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've taught programming , part time in an elementary setting , for years , and have been a real live stay at home dad for almost 20 years .
I know code and kids .
Kids learn people first , things later .
So teach what * you * are passionate about .
A kid will spot bullshit a mile away .
You can trust that your little brother knows you better than you would like .
Your little brother is n't going to be learning programming , he will be learning what you like .
It 's the " what you like " part that is most important.Do n't worry about what language to use , all languages suck about the same amount , just in different ways .
C is fine , kids have a wonderful ability with language , any language .
Any kid under 14 ( puberty is the dividing line ) or so will pick up the syntax of any language in a few weeks .
Arbitrary and weird is fine , they just go with it .
In my experience kids can learn either top down or bottom up , but they have a more or less fixed attention span .
You have something like 20 - 40 minutes before he will start to get antsy .
( YMMV ) Regular times for set amounts of time work best .
He knows that Monday at 6 big brother will give him a lesson and answer that question that has been bugging him for days , or years or centuries , they 're all about the same .
If in 6 months he would rather find something else to do , then consider dropping it .
But remember ! !
The discipline in a 12 year olds life is external , not internal !
That really does n't start kicking in until HIgh School.One thing that will kill this is forgetting that he is 12 , below a certain but unknown age kids just ca n't get certain things .
You just do n't know what , exactly .
Just because you got it at 12 does n't mean he will .
He may get different things .
Then they just go to sleep and wake up and suddenly get it .
They will often deny that they ever did n't get it , it is now natural and part of them .
It 's magic and frustrating as hell .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've taught programming, part time in an elementary setting, for years, and have been a real live stay at home dad for almost 20 years.
I know code and kids.
Kids learn people first, things later.
So teach what *you* are passionate about.
A kid will spot bullshit a mile away.
You can trust that your little brother knows you better than you would like.
Your little brother isn't going to be learning programming, he will be learning what you like.
It's the "what you like" part that is most important.Don't worry about what language to use, all languages suck about the same amount, just in different ways.
C is fine, kids have a wonderful ability with language, any language.
Any kid under 14 (puberty is the dividing line) or so will pick up the syntax of any language in a few weeks.
Arbitrary and weird is fine, they just go with it.
In my experience kids can learn either top down or bottom up, but they have a more or less fixed attention span.
You have something like 20 - 40 minutes before he will start to get antsy.
(YMMV) Regular times for set amounts of time work best.
He knows that Monday at 6 big brother will give him a lesson and answer that question that has been bugging him for days, or years or centuries, they're all about the same.
If in 6 months he would rather find something else to do, then consider dropping it.
But remember!!
The discipline in a 12 year olds life is external, not internal!
That really doesn't start kicking in until HIgh School.One thing that will kill this is forgetting that he is 12, below a certain but unknown age kids just can't get certain things.
You just don't know what, exactly.
Just because you got it at 12 doesn't mean he will.
He may get different things.
Then they just go to sleep and wake up and suddenly get it.
They will often deny that they ever didn't get it, it is now natural and part of them.
It's magic and frustrating as hell.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568252</id>
	<title>Smallbasic project from MS</title>
	<author>dagarath</author>
	<datestamp>1261934220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Work through the included PDF document examples, it basically does what the old qbasic provided, a quick IDE / interpreter and easy access to some text functions ( for the classic 'Hello World' and then easy access to some graphical drawing functions, even includes a turtle).</p><p>http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Work through the included PDF document examples , it basically does what the old qbasic provided , a quick IDE / interpreter and easy access to some text functions ( for the classic 'Hello World ' and then easy access to some graphical drawing functions , even includes a turtle ) .http : //msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Work through the included PDF document examples, it basically does what the old qbasic provided, a quick IDE / interpreter and easy access to some text functions ( for the classic 'Hello World' and then easy access to some graphical drawing functions, even includes a turtle).http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569154</id>
	<title>Some years ago...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261992120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I learned to program before I was 12, but I was really interested in web development, so I started with Visual Basic (for ASP) and PHP. I'd say see what they're interested in, and teach to that!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I learned to program before I was 12 , but I was really interested in web development , so I started with Visual Basic ( for ASP ) and PHP .
I 'd say see what they 're interested in , and teach to that !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I learned to program before I was 12, but I was really interested in web development, so I started with Visual Basic (for ASP) and PHP.
I'd say see what they're interested in, and teach to that!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565814</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>tempest69</author>
	<datestamp>1261910700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Microsoft has a project "small basic" which is of a similar niche.  I enjoyed the environment.  <a href="http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx" title="microsoft.com">http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx</a> [microsoft.com]
<p>
Storm</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Microsoft has a project " small basic " which is of a similar niche .
I enjoyed the environment .
http : //msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx [ microsoft.com ] Storm</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Microsoft has a project "small basic" which is of a similar niche.
I enjoyed the environment.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx [microsoft.com]

Storm</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565980</id>
	<title>PHP or Java</title>
	<author>tthomas48</author>
	<datestamp>1261912020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>PHP and Java both have great class libraries that let you stitch together a program pretty quickly without having to re-invent the wheel or master something like CPAN (I know you people think they're easy and I agree, but it's a barrier to getting up and running quickly, and barriers are bad).</p><p>And I think learning to program for the web is a great starting place since it's easy to get results. I didn't really get into programming as a teenager because it was so hard to get impressive results with C++ quickly.</p><p>And javascript programming is great for kids. It's pretty trivial to be able to do simple animations, wire buttons, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>PHP and Java both have great class libraries that let you stitch together a program pretty quickly without having to re-invent the wheel or master something like CPAN ( I know you people think they 're easy and I agree , but it 's a barrier to getting up and running quickly , and barriers are bad ) .And I think learning to program for the web is a great starting place since it 's easy to get results .
I did n't really get into programming as a teenager because it was so hard to get impressive results with C + + quickly.And javascript programming is great for kids .
It 's pretty trivial to be able to do simple animations , wire buttons , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PHP and Java both have great class libraries that let you stitch together a program pretty quickly without having to re-invent the wheel or master something like CPAN (I know you people think they're easy and I agree, but it's a barrier to getting up and running quickly, and barriers are bad).And I think learning to program for the web is a great starting place since it's easy to get results.
I didn't really get into programming as a teenager because it was so hard to get impressive results with C++ quickly.And javascript programming is great for kids.
It's pretty trivial to be able to do simple animations, wire buttons, etc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565270</id>
	<title>The thing that interested me...</title>
	<author>91degrees</author>
	<datestamp>1261906380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is vague musing hoping that someone else can expand.

The BBC Micro's BASIC had a series of plot and draw routines built in.  It was fun actually getting something tangible out of very limited beginner's knowledge.

Not sure whether something with built in OpenGL would work.  The basic GL operations are very flexible and easy to understand.  Downsides are that actually setting up a window is a more effort than just typing "MODE 0" and glut is slightly distracting from a low level understanding.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is vague musing hoping that someone else can expand .
The BBC Micro 's BASIC had a series of plot and draw routines built in .
It was fun actually getting something tangible out of very limited beginner 's knowledge .
Not sure whether something with built in OpenGL would work .
The basic GL operations are very flexible and easy to understand .
Downsides are that actually setting up a window is a more effort than just typing " MODE 0 " and glut is slightly distracting from a low level understanding .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is vague musing hoping that someone else can expand.
The BBC Micro's BASIC had a series of plot and draw routines built in.
It was fun actually getting something tangible out of very limited beginner's knowledge.
Not sure whether something with built in OpenGL would work.
The basic GL operations are very flexible and easy to understand.
Downsides are that actually setting up a window is a more effort than just typing "MODE 0" and glut is slightly distracting from a low level understanding.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571198</id>
	<title>lead him down a path towards C/C++</title>
	<author>Smallpond</author>
	<datestamp>1262016420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Really?  You hate your brother that much?</p><p>Language choice doesn't matter.  You can do simple things in any language.  If it takes some magic to make it work, he won't care.  The important thing will be to do something that's interesting.  I would start off by developing a scene in POV-Ray.  Then get into program flow using OpenGL and whatever language binding is handy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Really ?
You hate your brother that much ? Language choice does n't matter .
You can do simple things in any language .
If it takes some magic to make it work , he wo n't care .
The important thing will be to do something that 's interesting .
I would start off by developing a scene in POV-Ray .
Then get into program flow using OpenGL and whatever language binding is handy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Really?
You hate your brother that much?Language choice doesn't matter.
You can do simple things in any language.
If it takes some magic to make it work, he won't care.
The important thing will be to do something that's interesting.
I would start off by developing a scene in POV-Ray.
Then get into program flow using OpenGL and whatever language binding is handy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565412</id>
	<title>Shamless Plug</title>
	<author>icknay</author>
	<datestamp>1261907400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Check out <a href="http://javabat.com/" title="javabat.com">http://javabat.com/</a> [javabat.com] for coding practice (the *teaching* of the material is still a problem, but JavaBat is great for practicing)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Check out http : //javabat.com/ [ javabat.com ] for coding practice ( the * teaching * of the material is still a problem , but JavaBat is great for practicing )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Check out http://javabat.com/ [javabat.com] for coding practice (the *teaching* of the material is still a problem, but JavaBat is great for practicing)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30572146</id>
	<title>I think BASIC should be first, really.</title>
	<author>AlphaBit</author>
	<datestamp>1262021340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I strongly recommend old-school BASIC.  It's a fairly straightforward imperative language that will introduce people to boolean logic, branching, and loops.  It works really well as a simple platform for writing algorithmic code.<br>
<br>
Later on, the transition from writing GOTO based code to GOSUB based code will be a good introduction to functions.  And before anyone says that GOSUB != f(), I want to point out that it's surprisingly similar to the way function calls are implemented in machine language.<br>
<br>
I think you should avoid strongly typed languages, there's no need to get tripped up about the differences between int and float until the student gets more serious.  I also think you should avoid object oriented languages in the beginning also.
No one would recommend learning VHDL before learning gate-based logic circuits, why are so many people advocating learning very high level languages before learning algorithms?<br>
<br>
If the student really takes to programming, they'll probably transition themselves off BASIC in a month or two and go pick up all those other techniques and concepts on their own.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I strongly recommend old-school BASIC .
It 's a fairly straightforward imperative language that will introduce people to boolean logic , branching , and loops .
It works really well as a simple platform for writing algorithmic code .
Later on , the transition from writing GOTO based code to GOSUB based code will be a good introduction to functions .
And before anyone says that GOSUB ! = f ( ) , I want to point out that it 's surprisingly similar to the way function calls are implemented in machine language .
I think you should avoid strongly typed languages , there 's no need to get tripped up about the differences between int and float until the student gets more serious .
I also think you should avoid object oriented languages in the beginning also .
No one would recommend learning VHDL before learning gate-based logic circuits , why are so many people advocating learning very high level languages before learning algorithms ?
If the student really takes to programming , they 'll probably transition themselves off BASIC in a month or two and go pick up all those other techniques and concepts on their own .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I strongly recommend old-school BASIC.
It's a fairly straightforward imperative language that will introduce people to boolean logic, branching, and loops.
It works really well as a simple platform for writing algorithmic code.
Later on, the transition from writing GOTO based code to GOSUB based code will be a good introduction to functions.
And before anyone says that GOSUB != f(), I want to point out that it's surprisingly similar to the way function calls are implemented in machine language.
I think you should avoid strongly typed languages, there's no need to get tripped up about the differences between int and float until the student gets more serious.
I also think you should avoid object oriented languages in the beginning also.
No one would recommend learning VHDL before learning gate-based logic circuits, why are so many people advocating learning very high level languages before learning algorithms?
If the student really takes to programming, they'll probably transition themselves off BASIC in a month or two and go pick up all those other techniques and concepts on their own.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566186</id>
	<title>Data structures</title>
	<author>michael\_cain</author>
	<datestamp>1261913760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Lots and lots of comments about syntax (C's sparseness, Python's white space, VBA's readability), but not many about data. If he likes programming, he's very quickly going to be managing collections of data. My short list of mandatory data aggregates would be lists and associative arrays, with various ways of pulling things out of the lists. Lists of lists in some form. All garbage collected. In my experience of trying to explain things to non-programmers, lists and some form of tag-value pairs are the easiest things to get across, especially if there's some syntactic sugar.
</p><p>
For further down the road, blocks of generated executable code as first-class objects are mandatory. Which leaves out many compiled languages. But I admit that this makes me at least a little odd.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lots and lots of comments about syntax ( C 's sparseness , Python 's white space , VBA 's readability ) , but not many about data .
If he likes programming , he 's very quickly going to be managing collections of data .
My short list of mandatory data aggregates would be lists and associative arrays , with various ways of pulling things out of the lists .
Lists of lists in some form .
All garbage collected .
In my experience of trying to explain things to non-programmers , lists and some form of tag-value pairs are the easiest things to get across , especially if there 's some syntactic sugar .
For further down the road , blocks of generated executable code as first-class objects are mandatory .
Which leaves out many compiled languages .
But I admit that this makes me at least a little odd .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Lots and lots of comments about syntax (C's sparseness, Python's white space, VBA's readability), but not many about data.
If he likes programming, he's very quickly going to be managing collections of data.
My short list of mandatory data aggregates would be lists and associative arrays, with various ways of pulling things out of the lists.
Lists of lists in some form.
All garbage collected.
In my experience of trying to explain things to non-programmers, lists and some form of tag-value pairs are the easiest things to get across, especially if there's some syntactic sugar.
For further down the road, blocks of generated executable code as first-class objects are mandatory.
Which leaves out many compiled languages.
But I admit that this makes me at least a little odd.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566584</id>
	<title>lego mindstorms NXT,</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261917360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is he into robots then how about lego mindstorms NXT, simple graphic interface to get the basic ideas of programming and then can lead up to other languages to do more.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is he into robots then how about lego mindstorms NXT , simple graphic interface to get the basic ideas of programming and then can lead up to other languages to do more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is he into robots then how about lego mindstorms NXT, simple graphic interface to get the basic ideas of programming and then can lead up to other languages to do more.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566332</id>
	<title>Autohotkey</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261915140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While I was working at a school I used this program <a href="http://www.autohotkey.com/" title="autohotkey.com" rel="nofollow">Autohotkey</a> [autohotkey.com] to successfully teach a 10 year old the very basics of programming (emphasis on very), it involves all the basic principles of teaching a computer but in a very simple and easy way and with simple and easy to understand results and uses in everyday computer use.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While I was working at a school I used this program Autohotkey [ autohotkey.com ] to successfully teach a 10 year old the very basics of programming ( emphasis on very ) , it involves all the basic principles of teaching a computer but in a very simple and easy way and with simple and easy to understand results and uses in everyday computer use .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While I was working at a school I used this program Autohotkey [autohotkey.com] to successfully teach a 10 year old the very basics of programming (emphasis on very), it involves all the basic principles of teaching a computer but in a very simple and easy way and with simple and easy to understand results and uses in everyday computer use.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565140</id>
	<title>Re:Python</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261905600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I seriously +1 for python.<br>easiest language ever invented and yet powerful enough to make lots of things<br>lots of libraries available etc.etc...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I seriously + 1 for python.easiest language ever invented and yet powerful enough to make lots of thingslots of libraries available etc.etc.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I seriously +1 for python.easiest language ever invented and yet powerful enough to make lots of thingslots of libraries available etc.etc...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569210</id>
	<title>Re:Python</title>
	<author>emilper</author>
	<datestamp>1261993020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Javascript + Greasemonkey<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... at 12 years, I suspect it will be a lot more fun to mess with web pages than to mess with registers. Otherwise, Perl + Moose + WWW::Mechanize, just tell him about robots.txt</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Javascript + Greasemonkey ... at 12 years , I suspect it will be a lot more fun to mess with web pages than to mess with registers .
Otherwise , Perl + Moose + WWW : : Mechanize , just tell him about robots.txt</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Javascript + Greasemonkey ... at 12 years, I suspect it will be a lot more fun to mess with web pages than to mess with registers.
Otherwise, Perl + Moose + WWW::Mechanize, just tell him about robots.txt</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565006</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565718</id>
	<title>APL</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261909740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Start him with APL.</p><p>I hear TECO makes a nice IDE as well.</p><p>Seriously... QBasic would be a good start... I started on speccy basic and having the ability to easily toy with graphics made it very appealing. If he's in any way mathematically inclined, demonstrating how simple maths or even simple arithmetic can create all kinds of interesting patterns could pique his interest. As much as I love C, I agree with everyone else saying that its too advanced for a beginner. The shell script idea mentioned above is an interesting concept however. Either way, set him up with a code environment that allows him to experiment... so going with the QBasic idea, if he wants to code a game, you should write the code for him to switch to a graphics mode, get key presses etc. etc. so he can concentrate on the meat. I found that learning by altering example programs and seeing what happened was also incredibly effective.</p><p>But the key thing is, as many other people have said, if he's not into the idea then there's absolutely no point.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Start him with APL.I hear TECO makes a nice IDE as well.Seriously... QBasic would be a good start... I started on speccy basic and having the ability to easily toy with graphics made it very appealing .
If he 's in any way mathematically inclined , demonstrating how simple maths or even simple arithmetic can create all kinds of interesting patterns could pique his interest .
As much as I love C , I agree with everyone else saying that its too advanced for a beginner .
The shell script idea mentioned above is an interesting concept however .
Either way , set him up with a code environment that allows him to experiment... so going with the QBasic idea , if he wants to code a game , you should write the code for him to switch to a graphics mode , get key presses etc .
etc. so he can concentrate on the meat .
I found that learning by altering example programs and seeing what happened was also incredibly effective.But the key thing is , as many other people have said , if he 's not into the idea then there 's absolutely no point .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Start him with APL.I hear TECO makes a nice IDE as well.Seriously... QBasic would be a good start... I started on speccy basic and having the ability to easily toy with graphics made it very appealing.
If he's in any way mathematically inclined, demonstrating how simple maths or even simple arithmetic can create all kinds of interesting patterns could pique his interest.
As much as I love C, I agree with everyone else saying that its too advanced for a beginner.
The shell script idea mentioned above is an interesting concept however.
Either way, set him up with a code environment that allows him to experiment... so going with the QBasic idea, if he wants to code a game, you should write the code for him to switch to a graphics mode, get key presses etc.
etc. so he can concentrate on the meat.
I found that learning by altering example programs and seeing what happened was also incredibly effective.But the key thing is, as many other people have said, if he's not into the idea then there's absolutely no point.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566544</id>
	<title>PLT Scheme</title>
	<author>xbeefsupreme</author>
	<datestamp>1261917060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>We use PLT Scheme in our introduction to programming class at college,it has a programing enviroment called Dr. Scheme which is free to download and use and there is a textbook online called "how to design programs" that is designed to be used with the language.</htmltext>
<tokenext>We use PLT Scheme in our introduction to programming class at college,it has a programing enviroment called Dr. Scheme which is free to download and use and there is a textbook online called " how to design programs " that is designed to be used with the language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We use PLT Scheme in our introduction to programming class at college,it has a programing enviroment called Dr. Scheme which is free to download and use and there is a textbook online called "how to design programs" that is designed to be used with the language.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566144</id>
	<title>Re:Python</title>
	<author>tzot</author>
	<datestamp>1261913400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>tl;dr: Python is a great language to learn by, but so featureful that your kid may never give it up.</p></div><p>You make it sound as if not giving up Python is a negative thing. Perhaps I can understand it if I change context:</p><p>- My little brother wants to enter the world of relationships. Whom do you suggest he should get involved first with?<br>- Natalie Portman.<br>- Well, Natalie is a trap; he can get hooked on her and never want to move on to someone else.</p><p>Nope. Still does not compute.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>tl ; dr : Python is a great language to learn by , but so featureful that your kid may never give it up.You make it sound as if not giving up Python is a negative thing .
Perhaps I can understand it if I change context : - My little brother wants to enter the world of relationships .
Whom do you suggest he should get involved first with ? - Natalie Portman.- Well , Natalie is a trap ; he can get hooked on her and never want to move on to someone else.Nope .
Still does not compute .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>tl;dr: Python is a great language to learn by, but so featureful that your kid may never give it up.You make it sound as if not giving up Python is a negative thing.
Perhaps I can understand it if I change context:- My little brother wants to enter the world of relationships.
Whom do you suggest he should get involved first with?- Natalie Portman.- Well, Natalie is a trap; he can get hooked on her and never want to move on to someone else.Nope.
Still does not compute.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564880</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566496</id>
	<title>Dark Basic</title>
	<author>erinacht</author>
	<datestamp>1261916580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In my experience (nephews) Programming with Dark Basic gives them an instant ROI.
It's the best modern equivalent to the Sinclair Basic that I started with.

OK.  Basic is a bit like programming with the training wheels on, but surely that's the point!

The well intentioned posts talking about syntax etc. don't really matter and you already know that yourself.

Dark Basic is a simple syntax that will allow games to be written.

There are sample programs for most standard game types that means he's got a jump start into making fun stuff straight away.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In my experience ( nephews ) Programming with Dark Basic gives them an instant ROI .
It 's the best modern equivalent to the Sinclair Basic that I started with .
OK. Basic is a bit like programming with the training wheels on , but surely that 's the point !
The well intentioned posts talking about syntax etc .
do n't really matter and you already know that yourself .
Dark Basic is a simple syntax that will allow games to be written .
There are sample programs for most standard game types that means he 's got a jump start into making fun stuff straight away .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my experience (nephews) Programming with Dark Basic gives them an instant ROI.
It's the best modern equivalent to the Sinclair Basic that I started with.
OK.  Basic is a bit like programming with the training wheels on, but surely that's the point!
The well intentioned posts talking about syntax etc.
don't really matter and you already know that yourself.
Dark Basic is a simple syntax that will allow games to be written.
There are sample programs for most standard game types that means he's got a jump start into making fun stuff straight away.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566224</id>
	<title>Scratch / Alice</title>
	<author>jeremyhu</author>
	<datestamp>1261914120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Scratch (http://scratch.mit.edu) and Alice (http://www.alice.org) are probably your best bets.  I've been teaching kids at this age level for the past four years, and the children have responded best to Scratch.</p><p>Both of these have the advantage of not frustrating students with syntax.  Scratch has a better community built around it than Alice does, but it doesn't support things like procedures out of the box (it's event script driven).  If you want to start teaching procedures, you should look into the BYOB fork of Scratch.</p><p>Alice has a better OOP model, but it's not entirely OOP.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Scratch ( http : //scratch.mit.edu ) and Alice ( http : //www.alice.org ) are probably your best bets .
I 've been teaching kids at this age level for the past four years , and the children have responded best to Scratch.Both of these have the advantage of not frustrating students with syntax .
Scratch has a better community built around it than Alice does , but it does n't support things like procedures out of the box ( it 's event script driven ) .
If you want to start teaching procedures , you should look into the BYOB fork of Scratch.Alice has a better OOP model , but it 's not entirely OOP .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Scratch (http://scratch.mit.edu) and Alice (http://www.alice.org) are probably your best bets.
I've been teaching kids at this age level for the past four years, and the children have responded best to Scratch.Both of these have the advantage of not frustrating students with syntax.
Scratch has a better community built around it than Alice does, but it doesn't support things like procedures out of the box (it's event script driven).
If you want to start teaching procedures, you should look into the BYOB fork of Scratch.Alice has a better OOP model, but it's not entirely OOP.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567538</id>
	<title>Does no one get it?</title>
	<author>fractalboy</author>
	<datestamp>1261925760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Poll a few hundred English lit professors about which one novel you should start with to get a kid into the classics and you are going to get a few hundred very different and extremely opinionated answers.  Put them all in the same room, and you'll get a lot of interesting arguments about it too.<br> <br>

My opinion?  I've taught kids aged about 8-17 programming languages at summer computer camps for over 10 years, and I have otherwise been an educator for a while.  Despite my own preferences and opinions, the truth is that unless you try to start someone out on INTERCAL, language doesn't matter.  It's not like Bobby would have become a phenomenal programmer, except you erroneously chose Language X to start him off with, and he hated it, so he became a hair stylist instead.<br> <br>

If someone doesn't do well at all with C++, while BASIC for example might be less scary, in my experience it makes no difference to reapproach programming with the different language.  At least as far as making a difference between having a real interest/performance, and the distinct lack thereof.  If someone is going to "get" programming, they'll be able to get it with any common programming language.  Period.<br> <br>

Furthermore, a kid's understanding of a programming language is going to depend much more on the quality of the tutoring/teaching/etc. methodologies, but that's another topic for another time.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Poll a few hundred English lit professors about which one novel you should start with to get a kid into the classics and you are going to get a few hundred very different and extremely opinionated answers .
Put them all in the same room , and you 'll get a lot of interesting arguments about it too .
My opinion ?
I 've taught kids aged about 8-17 programming languages at summer computer camps for over 10 years , and I have otherwise been an educator for a while .
Despite my own preferences and opinions , the truth is that unless you try to start someone out on INTERCAL , language does n't matter .
It 's not like Bobby would have become a phenomenal programmer , except you erroneously chose Language X to start him off with , and he hated it , so he became a hair stylist instead .
If someone does n't do well at all with C + + , while BASIC for example might be less scary , in my experience it makes no difference to reapproach programming with the different language .
At least as far as making a difference between having a real interest/performance , and the distinct lack thereof .
If someone is going to " get " programming , they 'll be able to get it with any common programming language .
Period . Furthermore , a kid 's understanding of a programming language is going to depend much more on the quality of the tutoring/teaching/etc .
methodologies , but that 's another topic for another time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Poll a few hundred English lit professors about which one novel you should start with to get a kid into the classics and you are going to get a few hundred very different and extremely opinionated answers.
Put them all in the same room, and you'll get a lot of interesting arguments about it too.
My opinion?
I've taught kids aged about 8-17 programming languages at summer computer camps for over 10 years, and I have otherwise been an educator for a while.
Despite my own preferences and opinions, the truth is that unless you try to start someone out on INTERCAL, language doesn't matter.
It's not like Bobby would have become a phenomenal programmer, except you erroneously chose Language X to start him off with, and he hated it, so he became a hair stylist instead.
If someone doesn't do well at all with C++, while BASIC for example might be less scary, in my experience it makes no difference to reapproach programming with the different language.
At least as far as making a difference between having a real interest/performance, and the distinct lack thereof.
If someone is going to "get" programming, they'll be able to get it with any common programming language.
Period. 

Furthermore, a kid's understanding of a programming language is going to depend much more on the quality of the tutoring/teaching/etc.
methodologies, but that's another topic for another time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565972</id>
	<title>Let the kid go play outside...</title>
	<author>overnight\_failure</author>
	<datestamp>1261911960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Let the kid go play outside in the real world whilst he's still a kid, instead of sitting in front of a screen making friends with pixels.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Let the kid go play outside in the real world whilst he 's still a kid , instead of sitting in front of a screen making friends with pixels .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let the kid go play outside in the real world whilst he's still a kid, instead of sitting in front of a screen making friends with pixels.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565586</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1261908720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Because if he isn&rdquo;t, he will never be.</p></div><p>Sorry, but I know a bit about the topic, and that is just not true.<br>Because you can make people be interested about something. Marketing for example is all about this. Leadership even more.</p><p>There are some things that you have to know, to get someone motivated though.<br>And there is the moral question if you actually want to manipulate someone that way.<br>(Well, in reality, we do it all the time. Everyone you ever looked up to, did this. Not out of evilness. But it&rsquo;s just natural. Everyone tries to dominate a bit. Men more than women. And nearly everyone does it in a good way.)</p><p>But <a href="http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1490850&amp;cid=30565484" title="slashdot.org">I already explained, how to motivate, in my earlier comment</a> [slashdot.org].</p><p>Protip: If you push like a waste press, you instantly lose the game. Instead, be the light that pulls others in.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Because if he isn    t , he will never be.Sorry , but I know a bit about the topic , and that is just not true.Because you can make people be interested about something .
Marketing for example is all about this .
Leadership even more.There are some things that you have to know , to get someone motivated though.And there is the moral question if you actually want to manipulate someone that way .
( Well , in reality , we do it all the time .
Everyone you ever looked up to , did this .
Not out of evilness .
But it    s just natural .
Everyone tries to dominate a bit .
Men more than women .
And nearly everyone does it in a good way .
) But I already explained , how to motivate , in my earlier comment [ slashdot.org ] .Protip : If you push like a waste press , you instantly lose the game .
Instead , be the light that pulls others in .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because if he isn”t, he will never be.Sorry, but I know a bit about the topic, and that is just not true.Because you can make people be interested about something.
Marketing for example is all about this.
Leadership even more.There are some things that you have to know, to get someone motivated though.And there is the moral question if you actually want to manipulate someone that way.
(Well, in reality, we do it all the time.
Everyone you ever looked up to, did this.
Not out of evilness.
But it’s just natural.
Everyone tries to dominate a bit.
Men more than women.
And nearly everyone does it in a good way.
)But I already explained, how to motivate, in my earlier comment [slashdot.org].Protip: If you push like a waste press, you instantly lose the game.
Instead, be the light that pulls others in.
:)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565700</id>
	<title>Competition</title>
	<author>CAIMLAS</author>
	<datestamp>1261909620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It doesn't really matter what he learns to program, but to teach a young man how to do something, the best motivator is, i think, a competitive challenge. There are many ways that programming can be applied in such a fashion: botting games, the games which are, in fact, programming exercises, and things of that fashion.</p><p>The idea is to make it interesting, and interested people try to find solutions.</p><p>Then just make sure you break him of the habit by making him write some sort of ERP platform, so he can grow up normal and find employment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It does n't really matter what he learns to program , but to teach a young man how to do something , the best motivator is , i think , a competitive challenge .
There are many ways that programming can be applied in such a fashion : botting games , the games which are , in fact , programming exercises , and things of that fashion.The idea is to make it interesting , and interested people try to find solutions.Then just make sure you break him of the habit by making him write some sort of ERP platform , so he can grow up normal and find employment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It doesn't really matter what he learns to program, but to teach a young man how to do something, the best motivator is, i think, a competitive challenge.
There are many ways that programming can be applied in such a fashion: botting games, the games which are, in fact, programming exercises, and things of that fashion.The idea is to make it interesting, and interested people try to find solutions.Then just make sure you break him of the habit by making him write some sort of ERP platform, so he can grow up normal and find employment.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566088</id>
	<title>Re:Ease in with scratch</title>
	<author>FictionPimp</author>
	<datestamp>1261912920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As I said previously, this is a great teaching tool for any age.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As I said previously , this is a great teaching tool for any age .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As I said previously, this is a great teaching tool for any age.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565016</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30573334</id>
	<title>programming languages</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262026200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>HTML, to JavaScript, to ActionScript/Flex</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>HTML , to JavaScript , to ActionScript/Flex</tokentext>
<sentencetext>HTML, to JavaScript, to ActionScript/Flex</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571968</id>
	<title>Consider Ruby</title>
	<author>Nerdposeur</author>
	<datestamp>1262020380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Consider Ruby. 'The Well-Grounded Rubyist' is an excellent (new) book that I'm currently working my way through. Very good teaching of a fun language.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Consider Ruby .
'The Well-Grounded Rubyist ' is an excellent ( new ) book that I 'm currently working my way through .
Very good teaching of a fun language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Consider Ruby.
'The Well-Grounded Rubyist' is an excellent (new) book that I'm currently working my way through.
Very good teaching of a fun language.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571092</id>
	<title>Programming How-To Rollup</title>
	<author>r0wan</author>
	<datestamp>1262015940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>get him to learn the basics - we all have been there and then start getting into the more fun projects like simple games and build on the skills he learns as you go.

Programming is hard but it can be very rewarding to see something you built working efficiently... and then making it work better!</p></div></blockquote><p>
To piggyback on this...and roll up a few aforementioned key steps:<br>
1) See if he's got an interest first<br>
1a) See if there's a program he wants that's not available for <i>x</i> platform.<br>
2) Start with what he's interested in<br>
3) Start with something easy in what he's interested in.<br> <br>

I started out with BASIC on an ATARI when I was about six(?)...then dropped programming until about two or three months ago when I got frustrated with the lack of Blackberry apps and decided to write my own instead of waiting for someone to do it for me.  I didn't know object-oriented programming, much less Java or JavaME, to save my life  (and most would say I probably still don't) but I hit up the Java tutorials and RIM API documentation.  It was hard work, and I froze my own Blackberry a number of times, but three/four months later I have a working Blackberry app that wasn't out there before.  I can confirm what the quoted poster said...it is very rewarding to see something you wrote work...and use it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>get him to learn the basics - we all have been there and then start getting into the more fun projects like simple games and build on the skills he learns as you go .
Programming is hard but it can be very rewarding to see something you built working efficiently... and then making it work better !
To piggyback on this...and roll up a few aforementioned key steps : 1 ) See if he 's got an interest first 1a ) See if there 's a program he wants that 's not available for x platform .
2 ) Start with what he 's interested in 3 ) Start with something easy in what he 's interested in .
I started out with BASIC on an ATARI when I was about six ( ?
) ...then dropped programming until about two or three months ago when I got frustrated with the lack of Blackberry apps and decided to write my own instead of waiting for someone to do it for me .
I did n't know object-oriented programming , much less Java or JavaME , to save my life ( and most would say I probably still do n't ) but I hit up the Java tutorials and RIM API documentation .
It was hard work , and I froze my own Blackberry a number of times , but three/four months later I have a working Blackberry app that was n't out there before .
I can confirm what the quoted poster said...it is very rewarding to see something you wrote work...and use it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>get him to learn the basics - we all have been there and then start getting into the more fun projects like simple games and build on the skills he learns as you go.
Programming is hard but it can be very rewarding to see something you built working efficiently... and then making it work better!
To piggyback on this...and roll up a few aforementioned key steps:
1) See if he's got an interest first
1a) See if there's a program he wants that's not available for x platform.
2) Start with what he's interested in
3) Start with something easy in what he's interested in.
I started out with BASIC on an ATARI when I was about six(?
)...then dropped programming until about two or three months ago when I got frustrated with the lack of Blackberry apps and decided to write my own instead of waiting for someone to do it for me.
I didn't know object-oriented programming, much less Java or JavaME, to save my life  (and most would say I probably still don't) but I hit up the Java tutorials and RIM API documentation.
It was hard work, and I froze my own Blackberry a number of times, but three/four months later I have a working Blackberry app that wasn't out there before.
I can confirm what the quoted poster said...it is very rewarding to see something you wrote work...and use it.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30574688</id>
	<title>pascal</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262032860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I honestly think that Pascal is the best first language because of the way it enforces the concept of datatypes. If you dive into C as the first language, the concept of pointers and all that might be a bit unclear, with Pascal it's pretty explicit because it won't let you point to any other datatypes. It creates a good habit. I would just make sure to have him move on relatively soon to OOP though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I honestly think that Pascal is the best first language because of the way it enforces the concept of datatypes .
If you dive into C as the first language , the concept of pointers and all that might be a bit unclear , with Pascal it 's pretty explicit because it wo n't let you point to any other datatypes .
It creates a good habit .
I would just make sure to have him move on relatively soon to OOP though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I honestly think that Pascal is the best first language because of the way it enforces the concept of datatypes.
If you dive into C as the first language, the concept of pointers and all that might be a bit unclear, with Pascal it's pretty explicit because it won't let you point to any other datatypes.
It creates a good habit.
I would just make sure to have him move on relatively soon to OOP though.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567412</id>
	<title>Re:Python+pygame</title>
	<author>selven</author>
	<datestamp>1261924620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Saying this as a fairly experienced python/pygame programmer, be sure to throw in <a href="http://psyco.sourceforge.net/" title="sourceforge.net">Psyco</a> [sourceforge.net] once you get to doing complex games with dozens of units. It magically makes all of your "140 ms per frame isn't fast enough" woes go away in 2 lines of code (and that is not, in any way, an understatement, their boasts of 2-100x speedups are accurate).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Saying this as a fairly experienced python/pygame programmer , be sure to throw in Psyco [ sourceforge.net ] once you get to doing complex games with dozens of units .
It magically makes all of your " 140 ms per frame is n't fast enough " woes go away in 2 lines of code ( and that is not , in any way , an understatement , their boasts of 2-100x speedups are accurate ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Saying this as a fairly experienced python/pygame programmer, be sure to throw in Psyco [sourceforge.net] once you get to doing complex games with dozens of units.
It magically makes all of your "140 ms per frame isn't fast enough" woes go away in 2 lines of code (and that is not, in any way, an understatement, their boasts of 2-100x speedups are accurate).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564924</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565118</id>
	<title>Python + a Logo-inspired module = cool!</title>
	<author>YA\_Python\_dev</author>
	<datestamp>1261905480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Python is a very good suggestion. Be sure to check out the <a href="http://docs.python.org/library/turtle.html" title="python.org">turtle module</a> [python.org] (included in the Python standard library), it's quite nice and inspired by Logo.</p><p>Also, Python 3.1 is slightly simpler and easier to understand for a beginner that the old Python 2.x.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Python is a very good suggestion .
Be sure to check out the turtle module [ python.org ] ( included in the Python standard library ) , it 's quite nice and inspired by Logo.Also , Python 3.1 is slightly simpler and easier to understand for a beginner that the old Python 2.x .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Python is a very good suggestion.
Be sure to check out the turtle module [python.org] (included in the Python standard library), it's quite nice and inspired by Logo.Also, Python 3.1 is slightly simpler and easier to understand for a beginner that the old Python 2.x.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566110</id>
	<title>Gamemake</title>
	<author>Toonol</author>
	<datestamp>1261913160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>PUt a free copy of gamemaker on his pc.  He can create a simple game with drag and drop; add a few lines of code to make it better.  Eventually he can write whole games in nothing but code.<br> <br>

It doesn't matter that it's not based on a standard programming language.  What matters is that he can see instant results, and program stuff that he likes.  Learning any particular language's syntax is irrelevant, all that matters at this point is getting him to understand concepts without losing interest.</htmltext>
<tokenext>PUt a free copy of gamemaker on his pc .
He can create a simple game with drag and drop ; add a few lines of code to make it better .
Eventually he can write whole games in nothing but code .
It does n't matter that it 's not based on a standard programming language .
What matters is that he can see instant results , and program stuff that he likes .
Learning any particular language 's syntax is irrelevant , all that matters at this point is getting him to understand concepts without losing interest .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PUt a free copy of gamemaker on his pc.
He can create a simple game with drag and drop; add a few lines of code to make it better.
Eventually he can write whole games in nothing but code.
It doesn't matter that it's not based on a standard programming language.
What matters is that he can see instant results, and program stuff that he likes.
Learning any particular language's syntax is irrelevant, all that matters at this point is getting him to understand concepts without losing interest.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564992</id>
	<title>Graphical?</title>
	<author>Lord Lode</author>
	<datestamp>1261904700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I wasn't taught how to program by someone. I discovered QBasic in DOS myself when I was 13 and was automatically drawn into it. I liked programming graphical things the most (plotting pixels with PSET). The fact that such graphical things were possible is what interested me so much. I'm not sure how this is with other people, but programming boring text examples makes it uninteresting probably.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was n't taught how to program by someone .
I discovered QBasic in DOS myself when I was 13 and was automatically drawn into it .
I liked programming graphical things the most ( plotting pixels with PSET ) .
The fact that such graphical things were possible is what interested me so much .
I 'm not sure how this is with other people , but programming boring text examples makes it uninteresting probably .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wasn't taught how to program by someone.
I discovered QBasic in DOS myself when I was 13 and was automatically drawn into it.
I liked programming graphical things the most (plotting pixels with PSET).
The fact that such graphical things were possible is what interested me so much.
I'm not sure how this is with other people, but programming boring text examples makes it uninteresting probably.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565578</id>
	<title>Does it really matter?</title>
	<author>Ash-Fox</author>
	<datestamp>1261908720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Does it really matter? I mean, I started programming when I was 9 in m68k assembler and at 11 I had somewhat Mastered it with extreme proficiency. From there I pretty much learned any other language I fancied.</p><p>I don't think the language really matters as much as the aspiration to program.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Does it really matter ?
I mean , I started programming when I was 9 in m68k assembler and at 11 I had somewhat Mastered it with extreme proficiency .
From there I pretty much learned any other language I fancied.I do n't think the language really matters as much as the aspiration to program .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does it really matter?
I mean, I started programming when I was 9 in m68k assembler and at 11 I had somewhat Mastered it with extreme proficiency.
From there I pretty much learned any other language I fancied.I don't think the language really matters as much as the aspiration to program.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565676</id>
	<title>Blue collar skillset</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261909440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Programming?!</p><p>Tutor him in math, science, money, and other things that will get him ahead in life = so he can go on to much better things than programming. </p><p>Teaching him programming is like teaching your kid how to be a janitor.  </p><p>And no, math has nothing to do with programming. In all my years, the most math I ever had to use was some high  school level linear algebra - even at the CAD company i worked for. They hired math grad students to do that algorithms for the calculations and they coded the  number crunching. Us CS guys just wrote the GUI, plotted points on the screen and file management stuff.</p><p>Or teach your kid plumbing or electrical - something with a future.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Programming ?
! Tutor him in math , science , money , and other things that will get him ahead in life = so he can go on to much better things than programming .
Teaching him programming is like teaching your kid how to be a janitor .
And no , math has nothing to do with programming .
In all my years , the most math I ever had to use was some high school level linear algebra - even at the CAD company i worked for .
They hired math grad students to do that algorithms for the calculations and they coded the number crunching .
Us CS guys just wrote the GUI , plotted points on the screen and file management stuff.Or teach your kid plumbing or electrical - something with a future .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Programming?
!Tutor him in math, science, money, and other things that will get him ahead in life = so he can go on to much better things than programming.
Teaching him programming is like teaching your kid how to be a janitor.
And no, math has nothing to do with programming.
In all my years, the most math I ever had to use was some high  school level linear algebra - even at the CAD company i worked for.
They hired math grad students to do that algorithms for the calculations and they coded the  number crunching.
Us CS guys just wrote the GUI, plotted points on the screen and file management stuff.Or teach your kid plumbing or electrical - something with a future.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565002</id>
	<title>Perl</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261904820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It has to be Perl, of course.</p><p>That way, he'll either write Haikus and become a rock star programmer, or write Haikus and go raving mad and prove the rest of Hilbert's unsolved problems.</p><p>Either way, you'll have Haikus, either as errors or from your brother. You can't go wrong with that!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It has to be Perl , of course.That way , he 'll either write Haikus and become a rock star programmer , or write Haikus and go raving mad and prove the rest of Hilbert 's unsolved problems.Either way , you 'll have Haikus , either as errors or from your brother .
You ca n't go wrong with that !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It has to be Perl, of course.That way, he'll either write Haikus and become a rock star programmer, or write Haikus and go raving mad and prove the rest of Hilbert's unsolved problems.Either way, you'll have Haikus, either as errors or from your brother.
You can't go wrong with that!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565742</id>
	<title>Python</title>
	<author>ProteusQ</author>
	<datestamp>1261909980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Consider "Python Programming for the Absolute Beginner" by Michael Dawson.  Python has the advantage of making sense in the same way that mathematics makes sense, so learning the language may have the additional bonus of helping him transition from computational math to algebra.  As for the book, it has an extremely high rating on Amazon.  One reviewer (C.L. West) states that he taught his nephew using this book.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Consider " Python Programming for the Absolute Beginner " by Michael Dawson .
Python has the advantage of making sense in the same way that mathematics makes sense , so learning the language may have the additional bonus of helping him transition from computational math to algebra .
As for the book , it has an extremely high rating on Amazon .
One reviewer ( C.L .
West ) states that he taught his nephew using this book .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Consider "Python Programming for the Absolute Beginner" by Michael Dawson.
Python has the advantage of making sense in the same way that mathematics makes sense, so learning the language may have the additional bonus of helping him transition from computational math to algebra.
As for the book, it has an extremely high rating on Amazon.
One reviewer (C.L.
West) states that he taught his nephew using this book.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565790</id>
	<title>Its what he would like that's important.</title>
	<author>jamie(really)</author>
	<datestamp>1261910460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"I've got a younger brother who I'd like to teach to program"</p><p>Why? Unless he comes to you, don't do it. You'll put him off for life. The best you could do would be to find out what he's interested in, and then do some of that on your own, and let him see what you are up to. See if he bites.</p><p>Otherwise you might as well "like to teach him physics", or math, or shakespear.</p><p>So, does he play shooters? Teach him how to script bots / gameplay in Unreal Script. Is he on youtube a lot? Teach him video editing tools. Ok, not programming, but technical. Interested in 3D? Get blender. Teach the math for raytracing. Facebook everyday? Teach him the API to write a cool app. So many possibilities.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" I 've got a younger brother who I 'd like to teach to program " Why ?
Unless he comes to you , do n't do it .
You 'll put him off for life .
The best you could do would be to find out what he 's interested in , and then do some of that on your own , and let him see what you are up to .
See if he bites.Otherwise you might as well " like to teach him physics " , or math , or shakespear.So , does he play shooters ?
Teach him how to script bots / gameplay in Unreal Script .
Is he on youtube a lot ?
Teach him video editing tools .
Ok , not programming , but technical .
Interested in 3D ?
Get blender .
Teach the math for raytracing .
Facebook everyday ?
Teach him the API to write a cool app .
So many possibilities .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"I've got a younger brother who I'd like to teach to program"Why?
Unless he comes to you, don't do it.
You'll put him off for life.
The best you could do would be to find out what he's interested in, and then do some of that on your own, and let him see what you are up to.
See if he bites.Otherwise you might as well "like to teach him physics", or math, or shakespear.So, does he play shooters?
Teach him how to script bots / gameplay in Unreal Script.
Is he on youtube a lot?
Teach him video editing tools.
Ok, not programming, but technical.
Interested in 3D?
Get blender.
Teach the math for raytracing.
Facebook everyday?
Teach him the API to write a cool app.
So many possibilities.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567000</id>
	<title>Alice orr other (game oriented) environment?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261920840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree with all the "it must be fun" comments.  So what about Alice (http://www.alice.org/) or other similar (game oriented) programming environments?  After that if he's still interested he should probably attempt to learn another language on his own with you as a resource to point him in the right direction.  This will be yet another useful skill for learning other languages and/or skills.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with all the " it must be fun " comments .
So what about Alice ( http : //www.alice.org/ ) or other similar ( game oriented ) programming environments ?
After that if he 's still interested he should probably attempt to learn another language on his own with you as a resource to point him in the right direction .
This will be yet another useful skill for learning other languages and/or skills .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with all the "it must be fun" comments.
So what about Alice (http://www.alice.org/) or other similar (game oriented) programming environments?
After that if he's still interested he should probably attempt to learn another language on his own with you as a resource to point him in the right direction.
This will be yet another useful skill for learning other languages and/or skills.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568346</id>
	<title>Java</title>
	<author>SplashMyBandit</author>
	<datestamp>1261935720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Java is actually fairly simple to start with. Certainly a lot simpler than C/C++ to start with. As long as you don't make it do JEE then he'll be fine, and he can even do some basic graphics which gives instant gratification. Once of the nice free IDEs (NetBeans ot BlueJ, NOT Eclipse for a beginner) can help to build something that will run (with a little bit of your help). And there are plenty of jobs if he continues Java. Many universities and polytechnics/technical schools start beginners with Java and with good reason. It scales from small simple problems up to big ones and you don't have to worry too much about string/memory management to begin with.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Java is actually fairly simple to start with .
Certainly a lot simpler than C/C + + to start with .
As long as you do n't make it do JEE then he 'll be fine , and he can even do some basic graphics which gives instant gratification .
Once of the nice free IDEs ( NetBeans ot BlueJ , NOT Eclipse for a beginner ) can help to build something that will run ( with a little bit of your help ) .
And there are plenty of jobs if he continues Java .
Many universities and polytechnics/technical schools start beginners with Java and with good reason .
It scales from small simple problems up to big ones and you do n't have to worry too much about string/memory management to begin with .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Java is actually fairly simple to start with.
Certainly a lot simpler than C/C++ to start with.
As long as you don't make it do JEE then he'll be fine, and he can even do some basic graphics which gives instant gratification.
Once of the nice free IDEs (NetBeans ot BlueJ, NOT Eclipse for a beginner) can help to build something that will run (with a little bit of your help).
And there are plenty of jobs if he continues Java.
Many universities and polytechnics/technical schools start beginners with Java and with good reason.
It scales from small simple problems up to big ones and you don't have to worry too much about string/memory management to begin with.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566340</id>
	<title>What about MIT's Scratch?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261915200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Meaby too childish, but perfect for a first young step!</p><p>http://scratch.mit.edu/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Meaby too childish , but perfect for a first young step ! http : //scratch.mit.edu/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Meaby too childish, but perfect for a first young step!http://scratch.mit.edu/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30574040</id>
	<title>Getting their interst with simple fun</title>
	<author>darthlupi</author>
	<datestamp>1262029740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you don't mind giving the youngster a somewhat graphical and simple approach to programming, I highly suggest using Game Maker.  It is a graphical game creation tool that also includes it's own scripting language that is very easy to get a hang of.
<br> <br>
One of the more interesting aspects is that anything that is done with the icons or Drag and Drop items can be done through scripting creating a nice staged approach to learning programming.
<br> <br>
It was created by a professor named Mark Overmars as a teaching tool to get children interested in programming.
<br> <br>
<a href="http://www.yoyogames.com/gamemaker/" title="yoyogames.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.yoyogames.com/gamemaker/</a> [yoyogames.com]
<br> <br>
It has very basic OOP functionality built in with child and parent objects, and you can actually create some pretty interesting applications with it.
The problem is that is a bit too fun and you will need to encourage your child to use this solely as a launching pad and not a final destination.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you do n't mind giving the youngster a somewhat graphical and simple approach to programming , I highly suggest using Game Maker .
It is a graphical game creation tool that also includes it 's own scripting language that is very easy to get a hang of .
One of the more interesting aspects is that anything that is done with the icons or Drag and Drop items can be done through scripting creating a nice staged approach to learning programming .
It was created by a professor named Mark Overmars as a teaching tool to get children interested in programming .
http : //www.yoyogames.com/gamemaker/ [ yoyogames.com ] It has very basic OOP functionality built in with child and parent objects , and you can actually create some pretty interesting applications with it .
The problem is that is a bit too fun and you will need to encourage your child to use this solely as a launching pad and not a final destination .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you don't mind giving the youngster a somewhat graphical and simple approach to programming, I highly suggest using Game Maker.
It is a graphical game creation tool that also includes it's own scripting language that is very easy to get a hang of.
One of the more interesting aspects is that anything that is done with the icons or Drag and Drop items can be done through scripting creating a nice staged approach to learning programming.
It was created by a professor named Mark Overmars as a teaching tool to get children interested in programming.
http://www.yoyogames.com/gamemaker/ [yoyogames.com]
 
It has very basic OOP functionality built in with child and parent objects, and you can actually create some pretty interesting applications with it.
The problem is that is a bit too fun and you will need to encourage your child to use this solely as a launching pad and not a final destination.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565634</id>
	<title>My father's solution</title>
	<author>zaffir</author>
	<datestamp>1261909140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My father's solution was to give me a copy of K&amp;R's C Programming Language. It was slow going at first, to say the least. I found other C books to be a great help, particularly O'Reilly's Practical C Programming. Things that weren't explained in a manner in which I could understand them in K&amp;R, were explained there quite well. But that's only useful if you think he'll enjoy pushing bits around like I did. Other, more high level and graphical stuff will probably be quite a bit more appealing if he's not really interested in writing stuff for the command line.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My father 's solution was to give me a copy of K&amp;R 's C Programming Language .
It was slow going at first , to say the least .
I found other C books to be a great help , particularly O'Reilly 's Practical C Programming .
Things that were n't explained in a manner in which I could understand them in K&amp;R , were explained there quite well .
But that 's only useful if you think he 'll enjoy pushing bits around like I did .
Other , more high level and graphical stuff will probably be quite a bit more appealing if he 's not really interested in writing stuff for the command line .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My father's solution was to give me a copy of K&amp;R's C Programming Language.
It was slow going at first, to say the least.
I found other C books to be a great help, particularly O'Reilly's Practical C Programming.
Things that weren't explained in a manner in which I could understand them in K&amp;R, were explained there quite well.
But that's only useful if you think he'll enjoy pushing bits around like I did.
Other, more high level and graphical stuff will probably be quite a bit more appealing if he's not really interested in writing stuff for the command line.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565682</id>
	<title>C Primer Plus</title>
	<author>ditoa</author>
	<datestamp>1261909500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Buy him a copy of C Primer Plus (5th Ed) by Stephen Prata and work through it with him. In my opinion it is one of the best introduction to C books available, if not the best and very friendly to first time programmers. Another option is Java: A Beginner's Guide (4th Ed) by Herbert Schildt.</p><p>I too believe that learning the lower level things such as memory allocation is the best way to make yourself a better life long programmer so I would advise C over Java however I know a lot of people who only know Java (or C#) and do just fine however they knew next to nothing about what I consider to be "real" programming. Everything they do is drag and drop then writing some logic to handle an event and letting the runtime deal with the "nitty gritty" stuff.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Buy him a copy of C Primer Plus ( 5th Ed ) by Stephen Prata and work through it with him .
In my opinion it is one of the best introduction to C books available , if not the best and very friendly to first time programmers .
Another option is Java : A Beginner 's Guide ( 4th Ed ) by Herbert Schildt.I too believe that learning the lower level things such as memory allocation is the best way to make yourself a better life long programmer so I would advise C over Java however I know a lot of people who only know Java ( or C # ) and do just fine however they knew next to nothing about what I consider to be " real " programming .
Everything they do is drag and drop then writing some logic to handle an event and letting the runtime deal with the " nitty gritty " stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Buy him a copy of C Primer Plus (5th Ed) by Stephen Prata and work through it with him.
In my opinion it is one of the best introduction to C books available, if not the best and very friendly to first time programmers.
Another option is Java: A Beginner's Guide (4th Ed) by Herbert Schildt.I too believe that learning the lower level things such as memory allocation is the best way to make yourself a better life long programmer so I would advise C over Java however I know a lot of people who only know Java (or C#) and do just fine however they knew next to nothing about what I consider to be "real" programming.
Everything they do is drag and drop then writing some logic to handle an event and letting the runtime deal with the "nitty gritty" stuff.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571164</id>
	<title>Any of the Visual Series</title>
	<author>g0bshiTe</author>
	<datestamp>1262016300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why not just go the MS route. Yeah I know it's M$ but you have to admit with the Developer edition tools the learning curve is non existent. Visual C++ would be a good start, he could almost instantly begin to code, and the projects he could make would be easily distributable. <br>I only say this because you never mentioned specific OS platform.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why not just go the MS route .
Yeah I know it 's M $ but you have to admit with the Developer edition tools the learning curve is non existent .
Visual C + + would be a good start , he could almost instantly begin to code , and the projects he could make would be easily distributable .
I only say this because you never mentioned specific OS platform .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why not just go the MS route.
Yeah I know it's M$ but you have to admit with the Developer edition tools the learning curve is non existent.
Visual C++ would be a good start, he could almost instantly begin to code, and the projects he could make would be easily distributable.
I only say this because you never mentioned specific OS platform.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565776</id>
	<title>More answers on S.O.</title>
	<author>icepick72</author>
	<datestamp>1261910280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've also seen similar questions having lots of great voted answers on StackOverflow.com. For example, see these similar questions: <a href="http://www.google.ca/search?q=Teach+Year+Old+To+Program\%3F+site:stackoverflow.com" title="google.ca">http://www.google.ca/search?q=Teach+Year+Old+To+Program\%3F+site:stackoverflow.com</a> [google.ca]</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've also seen similar questions having lots of great voted answers on StackOverflow.com .
For example , see these similar questions : http : //www.google.ca/search ? q = Teach + Year + Old + To + Program \ % 3F + site : stackoverflow.com [ google.ca ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've also seen similar questions having lots of great voted answers on StackOverflow.com.
For example, see these similar questions: http://www.google.ca/search?q=Teach+Year+Old+To+Program\%3F+site:stackoverflow.com [google.ca]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30572112</id>
	<title>Try Scratch for something fun.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262021160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>http://scratch.mit.edu/</p><p>Scratch is designed to help young people (ages 8 and up) develop 21st century learning skills. As they create and share Scratch projects, young people learn important mathematical and computational ideas, while also learning to think creatively, reason systematically, and work collaboratively.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //scratch.mit.edu/Scratch is designed to help young people ( ages 8 and up ) develop 21st century learning skills .
As they create and share Scratch projects , young people learn important mathematical and computational ideas , while also learning to think creatively , reason systematically , and work collaboratively .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://scratch.mit.edu/Scratch is designed to help young people (ages 8 and up) develop 21st century learning skills.
As they create and share Scratch projects, young people learn important mathematical and computational ideas, while also learning to think creatively, reason systematically, and work collaboratively.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566326</id>
	<title>Me</title>
	<author>Kopachris</author>
	<datestamp>1261915140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I was 12, I actually started teaching myself programming with TI-BASIC on a school-supplied graphing calculator.  HTML and GW-BASIC quickly followed, then it was on to Visual Basic and C++.  If I were to do it again today, though, I'd probably start with Python&mdash;it's easy to learn and can do great stuff.  I would certainly steer clear of things like Alice and HTML, which don't really teach the fundamentals of programming very well.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was 12 , I actually started teaching myself programming with TI-BASIC on a school-supplied graphing calculator .
HTML and GW-BASIC quickly followed , then it was on to Visual Basic and C + + .
If I were to do it again today , though , I 'd probably start with Python    it 's easy to learn and can do great stuff .
I would certainly steer clear of things like Alice and HTML , which do n't really teach the fundamentals of programming very well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was 12, I actually started teaching myself programming with TI-BASIC on a school-supplied graphing calculator.
HTML and GW-BASIC quickly followed, then it was on to Visual Basic and C++.
If I were to do it again today, though, I'd probably start with Python—it's easy to learn and can do great stuff.
I would certainly steer clear of things like Alice and HTML, which don't really teach the fundamentals of programming very well.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30576140</id>
	<title>I would opt for Python</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261997100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would start him off on Python.  No,  it's NOT a snake...<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p><p>I was wearing my PyCon t-shirt,  when some moron asked me if it was a herpetologist conference!!!</p><p>Python has the purest and simplest syntax possible,  although you DO have to pay attention to indentations.<br>It runs on just about every platform,   highly interactive,  uses same basic function names as C and other languages.   No complex "make files"<br>to make or deal with,  and it glues to just about everything.  Its free "python.org".  It's Object Oriented...</p><p>From there,  you can go anywhere.   Client side applications are usually programmed in C or lower level compiler related languages,<br>where Server side software (WEB,  CGIs,   etc) are written in PERL,  python,  or PHP,  or Java.</p><p>J</p><p>J</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would start him off on Python .
No , it 's NOT a snake... : - ) I was wearing my PyCon t-shirt , when some moron asked me if it was a herpetologist conference ! !
! Python has the purest and simplest syntax possible , although you DO have to pay attention to indentations.It runs on just about every platform , highly interactive , uses same basic function names as C and other languages .
No complex " make files " to make or deal with , and it glues to just about everything .
Its free " python.org " .
It 's Object Oriented...From there , you can go anywhere .
Client side applications are usually programmed in C or lower level compiler related languages,where Server side software ( WEB , CGIs , etc ) are written in PERL , python , or PHP , or Java.JJ</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would start him off on Python.
No,  it's NOT a snake... :-)I was wearing my PyCon t-shirt,  when some moron asked me if it was a herpetologist conference!!
!Python has the purest and simplest syntax possible,  although you DO have to pay attention to indentations.It runs on just about every platform,   highly interactive,  uses same basic function names as C and other languages.
No complex "make files"to make or deal with,  and it glues to just about everything.
Its free "python.org".
It's Object Oriented...From there,  you can go anywhere.
Client side applications are usually programmed in C or lower level compiler related languages,where Server side software (WEB,  CGIs,   etc) are written in PERL,  python,  or PHP,  or Java.JJ</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30581540</id>
	<title>Microsoft Visual Studio</title>
	<author>fordfanboi</author>
	<datestamp>1262098800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Have him start with mainstream languages and tools - the ones whose sole purpose is to make programming life easy.  Visual Studio &gt; Visual Basic Express.  Loads of examples and tutorials out there geared toward youth.  The migration to Visual C++ will be easy since he will already know the IDE.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Have him start with mainstream languages and tools - the ones whose sole purpose is to make programming life easy .
Visual Studio &gt; Visual Basic Express .
Loads of examples and tutorials out there geared toward youth .
The migration to Visual C + + will be easy since he will already know the IDE .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have him start with mainstream languages and tools - the ones whose sole purpose is to make programming life easy.
Visual Studio &gt; Visual Basic Express.
Loads of examples and tutorials out there geared toward youth.
The migration to Visual C++ will be easy since he will already know the IDE.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30575874</id>
	<title>Try Alice</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261995840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Try Alice - http://www.alice.org - it has everything from loops to objects to object and class interactions, all within the premises of making animation movies.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Try Alice - http : //www.alice.org - it has everything from loops to objects to object and class interactions , all within the premises of making animation movies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Try Alice - http://www.alice.org - it has everything from loops to objects to object and class interactions, all within the premises of making animation movies.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564984</id>
	<title>How To Teach a 12-Year-Old To Program?</title>
	<author>omar.sahal</author>
	<datestamp>1261904640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Firstly he has to want to do it, I mean really want to because it is hard. Show him <a href="http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html" title="catb.org">this</a> [catb.org] its pretty inspirational (what ever you think of the author), this got me into programming.<br> Peter Norvig <a href="http://norvig.com/21-days.html" title="norvig.com">says</a> [norvig.com] Python or Scheme (he's an old lisp guy) but he needs to get to the point of codding his own apps ASAP so a language with lots of examples is good (Python has the oreilly publishers cookbook and numerous applications out there).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Firstly he has to want to do it , I mean really want to because it is hard .
Show him this [ catb.org ] its pretty inspirational ( what ever you think of the author ) , this got me into programming .
Peter Norvig says [ norvig.com ] Python or Scheme ( he 's an old lisp guy ) but he needs to get to the point of codding his own apps ASAP so a language with lots of examples is good ( Python has the oreilly publishers cookbook and numerous applications out there ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Firstly he has to want to do it, I mean really want to because it is hard.
Show him this [catb.org] its pretty inspirational (what ever you think of the author), this got me into programming.
Peter Norvig says [norvig.com] Python or Scheme (he's an old lisp guy) but he needs to get to the point of codding his own apps ASAP so a language with lots of examples is good (Python has the oreilly publishers cookbook and numerous applications out there).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564934</id>
	<title>Parallax Propeller micro controller kit.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261947540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Get him a Propeller micro controller kit from Parallax Inc <a href="http://www.parallax.com/tabid/407/Default.aspx" title="parallax.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.parallax.com/tabid/407/Default.aspx</a> [parallax.com]

A Propeller is a 32 bit micro-controller (well in fact 8 processors in a chip) with some RAM. Parallax have a number of ready made boards so that this thing is easy to program from USB. The IDE is dead easy to use. Starting out the first steps in programming with this is inspiring because one can immediately get things in the real world to happen. From flashing LEDs to controlling robots, to generating video.

The high level language it uses, Spin, is sort of Pascal/Python/C like, very easy to begin programming with. When you get serious it's assembly language is about the easiest there is.

The Propeller does VGA and TV video, there is even a games oriented kit. It's the closest thing we have to the C64 we have in this modern world. Wish I had one when I was 12.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Get him a Propeller micro controller kit from Parallax Inc http : //www.parallax.com/tabid/407/Default.aspx [ parallax.com ] A Propeller is a 32 bit micro-controller ( well in fact 8 processors in a chip ) with some RAM .
Parallax have a number of ready made boards so that this thing is easy to program from USB .
The IDE is dead easy to use .
Starting out the first steps in programming with this is inspiring because one can immediately get things in the real world to happen .
From flashing LEDs to controlling robots , to generating video .
The high level language it uses , Spin , is sort of Pascal/Python/C like , very easy to begin programming with .
When you get serious it 's assembly language is about the easiest there is .
The Propeller does VGA and TV video , there is even a games oriented kit .
It 's the closest thing we have to the C64 we have in this modern world .
Wish I had one when I was 12 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get him a Propeller micro controller kit from Parallax Inc http://www.parallax.com/tabid/407/Default.aspx [parallax.com]

A Propeller is a 32 bit micro-controller (well in fact 8 processors in a chip) with some RAM.
Parallax have a number of ready made boards so that this thing is easy to program from USB.
The IDE is dead easy to use.
Starting out the first steps in programming with this is inspiring because one can immediately get things in the real world to happen.
From flashing LEDs to controlling robots, to generating video.
The high level language it uses, Spin, is sort of Pascal/Python/C like, very easy to begin programming with.
When you get serious it's assembly language is about the easiest there is.
The Propeller does VGA and TV video, there is even a games oriented kit.
It's the closest thing we have to the C64 we have in this modern world.
Wish I had one when I was 12.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565668</id>
	<title>Me 2!</title>
	<author>cephus440</author>
	<datestamp>1261909440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I started programming at a very young age.  Similar to you, I started with BASIC (Atari 800 for me) and moved to Turbo Basic, Turbo Pascal, C++, JAVA, C#... and somewhere along the way I picked up FORTRAN.  For a young man around 12 years old, I would suggest an interpreted language that would quick show the cause and effect of what has happened.
<br> <br>
I know how much Slashdot love MS, but there's this: <br>
<a href="http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx" title="microsoft.com" rel="nofollow">http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx</a> [microsoft.com] <br> <br>
The Mono project is also very awesome:<br>
<a href="http://www.mono-project.com/VisualBasic.NET\_support" title="mono-project.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.mono-project.com/VisualBasic.NET\_support</a> [mono-project.com] <br> <br>
Last but not least, jump right into JAVA with NetBeans.  The IDE (although bloated) holds your hand through a lot of things.
<br> <br>
If there's a struggle with understanding, then good ol' HTML is a quick way to see results.  After all, the 'Hello World' and making your name appear on the screen in different colors and blinking is very exciting when you're young!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I started programming at a very young age .
Similar to you , I started with BASIC ( Atari 800 for me ) and moved to Turbo Basic , Turbo Pascal , C + + , JAVA , C # ... and somewhere along the way I picked up FORTRAN .
For a young man around 12 years old , I would suggest an interpreted language that would quick show the cause and effect of what has happened .
I know how much Slashdot love MS , but there 's this : http : //msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx [ microsoft.com ] The Mono project is also very awesome : http : //www.mono-project.com/VisualBasic.NET \ _support [ mono-project.com ] Last but not least , jump right into JAVA with NetBeans .
The IDE ( although bloated ) holds your hand through a lot of things .
If there 's a struggle with understanding , then good ol ' HTML is a quick way to see results .
After all , the 'Hello World ' and making your name appear on the screen in different colors and blinking is very exciting when you 're young !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started programming at a very young age.
Similar to you, I started with BASIC (Atari 800 for me) and moved to Turbo Basic, Turbo Pascal, C++, JAVA, C#... and somewhere along the way I picked up FORTRAN.
For a young man around 12 years old, I would suggest an interpreted language that would quick show the cause and effect of what has happened.
I know how much Slashdot love MS, but there's this: 
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/devlabs/cc950524.aspx [microsoft.com]  
The Mono project is also very awesome:
http://www.mono-project.com/VisualBasic.NET\_support [mono-project.com]  
Last but not least, jump right into JAVA with NetBeans.
The IDE (although bloated) holds your hand through a lot of things.
If there's a struggle with understanding, then good ol' HTML is a quick way to see results.
After all, the 'Hello World' and making your name appear on the screen in different colors and blinking is very exciting when you're young!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567290</id>
	<title>Time for that father-son talk</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261923540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Proggraming is like having sex, son. Make just one mistake and you'll have to provide support for a lifetime."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Proggraming is like having sex , son .
Make just one mistake and you 'll have to provide support for a lifetime .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Proggraming is like having sex, son.
Make just one mistake and you'll have to provide support for a lifetime.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30573040</id>
	<title>Start with his interests, not yours</title>
	<author>Kensor</author>
	<datestamp>1262025000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Software development begins with the question "Is there a problem?", and proceeds given an affirmative answer. Does you brother want to learn to program? If yes, then "Why?" "To solve what problem?" "To satisfy what creative urge?" At age 12, he may not have answers that suggest C coding, thus providing you with a reason to show him your C programming skills.

Perhaps you could show him how he can gain a greater degree of control over the program he uses most. This might be a game, or the text editor he uses. It may be that the most appropriate language with which to start is the one embedded in his application of choice, which might lead you down a path such as Word Basic, Visual Basic for Applications, Visual Basic, then C++.

On the other hand, he might enjoy a blank editor screen, a simple problem, and the process of figuring out how to make the computer do what it must to present the correct solution. His call. Your mission. It's great that you're willing to be of service.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Software development begins with the question " Is there a problem ?
" , and proceeds given an affirmative answer .
Does you brother want to learn to program ?
If yes , then " Why ?
" " To solve what problem ?
" " To satisfy what creative urge ?
" At age 12 , he may not have answers that suggest C coding , thus providing you with a reason to show him your C programming skills .
Perhaps you could show him how he can gain a greater degree of control over the program he uses most .
This might be a game , or the text editor he uses .
It may be that the most appropriate language with which to start is the one embedded in his application of choice , which might lead you down a path such as Word Basic , Visual Basic for Applications , Visual Basic , then C + + .
On the other hand , he might enjoy a blank editor screen , a simple problem , and the process of figuring out how to make the computer do what it must to present the correct solution .
His call .
Your mission .
It 's great that you 're willing to be of service .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Software development begins with the question "Is there a problem?
", and proceeds given an affirmative answer.
Does you brother want to learn to program?
If yes, then "Why?
" "To solve what problem?
" "To satisfy what creative urge?
" At age 12, he may not have answers that suggest C coding, thus providing you with a reason to show him your C programming skills.
Perhaps you could show him how he can gain a greater degree of control over the program he uses most.
This might be a game, or the text editor he uses.
It may be that the most appropriate language with which to start is the one embedded in his application of choice, which might lead you down a path such as Word Basic, Visual Basic for Applications, Visual Basic, then C++.
On the other hand, he might enjoy a blank editor screen, a simple problem, and the process of figuring out how to make the computer do what it must to present the correct solution.
His call.
Your mission.
It's great that you're willing to be of service.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565548</id>
	<title>Stagecast and Alice</title>
	<author>VeryLargeNumber</author>
	<datestamp>1261908540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I know two programming environments, designed specially for children. One is Stagecast Creator <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagecast\_Creator" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagecast\_Creator</a> [wikipedia.org], which is created in Apple, and was known as Cocoa before Apple reused the name for the Cocoa API. The other is Alice <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice\_(software)" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice\_(software)</a> [wikipedia.org], created in Carnegie Mellon, by a group led by the late Randy Pausch (you might have seen "The last lecture" by Randy Pausch).<br>Stagecast creator is a programming tutorial, disguised as a 2D game designer, and Alice is a programming tutorial disguised as 3D scene creator. I, being a keen NES gamer, tend to like Stagecast better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I know two programming environments , designed specially for children .
One is Stagecast Creator http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagecast \ _Creator [ wikipedia.org ] , which is created in Apple , and was known as Cocoa before Apple reused the name for the Cocoa API .
The other is Alice http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice \ _ ( software ) [ wikipedia.org ] , created in Carnegie Mellon , by a group led by the late Randy Pausch ( you might have seen " The last lecture " by Randy Pausch ) .Stagecast creator is a programming tutorial , disguised as a 2D game designer , and Alice is a programming tutorial disguised as 3D scene creator .
I , being a keen NES gamer , tend to like Stagecast better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know two programming environments, designed specially for children.
One is Stagecast Creator http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagecast\_Creator [wikipedia.org], which is created in Apple, and was known as Cocoa before Apple reused the name for the Cocoa API.
The other is Alice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice\_(software) [wikipedia.org], created in Carnegie Mellon, by a group led by the late Randy Pausch (you might have seen "The last lecture" by Randy Pausch).Stagecast creator is a programming tutorial, disguised as a 2D game designer, and Alice is a programming tutorial disguised as 3D scene creator.
I, being a keen NES gamer, tend to like Stagecast better.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566004</id>
	<title>HTML and Javascript</title>
	<author>Eravnrekaree</author>
	<datestamp>1261912140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously, start with HTML. It gets you instant results right away and he can see his work coming to fruition quickly in designing his own web pages. To really capture interest it can help to show the practical purposes of programming rather than making iot all so abstract. Lots of set up and initialisation just to do something can really blow out many new programmers, if there is a lot of tricky work to do simple things. HTML and javascript allow you to see results fast with little initialisation crap. Instant gratification can help capture their interest and the web page thing allows them to quickly realise the value of what they are doing. Write some HTML and publish it on myspace or on fortunecity for the world to see, tis instant payback.</p><p>Start to teach javascript and you get instant feedback. Javascript happens to be a very simple, clean, dynamic typed language perfect for a newbie. Show them how to use the javascript and debug console in firefox to debug their code. More instant gratification from making their own little web applets that can be made instantly available to world .</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously , start with HTML .
It gets you instant results right away and he can see his work coming to fruition quickly in designing his own web pages .
To really capture interest it can help to show the practical purposes of programming rather than making iot all so abstract .
Lots of set up and initialisation just to do something can really blow out many new programmers , if there is a lot of tricky work to do simple things .
HTML and javascript allow you to see results fast with little initialisation crap .
Instant gratification can help capture their interest and the web page thing allows them to quickly realise the value of what they are doing .
Write some HTML and publish it on myspace or on fortunecity for the world to see , t is instant payback.Start to teach javascript and you get instant feedback .
Javascript happens to be a very simple , clean , dynamic typed language perfect for a newbie .
Show them how to use the javascript and debug console in firefox to debug their code .
More instant gratification from making their own little web applets that can be made instantly available to world .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously, start with HTML.
It gets you instant results right away and he can see his work coming to fruition quickly in designing his own web pages.
To really capture interest it can help to show the practical purposes of programming rather than making iot all so abstract.
Lots of set up and initialisation just to do something can really blow out many new programmers, if there is a lot of tricky work to do simple things.
HTML and javascript allow you to see results fast with little initialisation crap.
Instant gratification can help capture their interest and the web page thing allows them to quickly realise the value of what they are doing.
Write some HTML and publish it on myspace or on fortunecity for the world to see, tis instant payback.Start to teach javascript and you get instant feedback.
Javascript happens to be a very simple, clean, dynamic typed language perfect for a newbie.
Show them how to use the javascript and debug console in firefox to debug their code.
More instant gratification from making their own little web applets that can be made instantly available to world .</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568896</id>
	<title>Traditional BASIC</title>
	<author>Casandro</author>
	<datestamp>1262031540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would recommend a traditional BASIC Interpreter with line numbers, then later Pascal. If you want to go further, Assembler and then maybe C.</p><p>It's no use trying to teach someone C without him having a firm grasp of Assembler. And Assembler is best beeing taught via traditional BASIC.</p><p>Asside from C, the worst popular language to start would probably be PHP, because you already need to know what you are doing, when writing in PHP.</p><p>As for Operating Systems, I would definitely go for Linux as it makes things like networking a \_lot\_ easier to learn.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would recommend a traditional BASIC Interpreter with line numbers , then later Pascal .
If you want to go further , Assembler and then maybe C.It 's no use trying to teach someone C without him having a firm grasp of Assembler .
And Assembler is best beeing taught via traditional BASIC.Asside from C , the worst popular language to start would probably be PHP , because you already need to know what you are doing , when writing in PHP.As for Operating Systems , I would definitely go for Linux as it makes things like networking a \ _lot \ _ easier to learn .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would recommend a traditional BASIC Interpreter with line numbers, then later Pascal.
If you want to go further, Assembler and then maybe C.It's no use trying to teach someone C without him having a firm grasp of Assembler.
And Assembler is best beeing taught via traditional BASIC.Asside from C, the worst popular language to start would probably be PHP, because you already need to know what you are doing, when writing in PHP.As for Operating Systems, I would definitely go for Linux as it makes things like networking a \_lot\_ easier to learn.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568450</id>
	<title>Java + Science</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261937400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Try out http://www.funsciencewithyourcomputer.org<br>It's for teenagers. The programs are useful and original, with step by step instructions to modify them. It uses Java and Eclipse.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Try out http : //www.funsciencewithyourcomputer.orgIt 's for teenagers .
The programs are useful and original , with step by step instructions to modify them .
It uses Java and Eclipse .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Try out http://www.funsciencewithyourcomputer.orgIt's for teenagers.
The programs are useful and original, with step by step instructions to modify them.
It uses Java and Eclipse.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567318</id>
	<title>Scratch, Alice, Python, Young Programmers Podcast</title>
	<author>Dave Briccetti</author>
	<datestamp>1261923840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I recommend Scratch (MIT), Alice (Carnegie Mellon) and Python, for teaching kids.

I have some video lessons here:

  <a href="http://young-programmers.blogspot.com/" title="blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://young-programmers.blogspot.com/</a> [blogspot.com]

on those three, plus Jython and Pygame, Scala and Lift.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I recommend Scratch ( MIT ) , Alice ( Carnegie Mellon ) and Python , for teaching kids .
I have some video lessons here : http : //young-programmers.blogspot.com/ [ blogspot.com ] on those three , plus Jython and Pygame , Scala and Lift .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I recommend Scratch (MIT), Alice (Carnegie Mellon) and Python, for teaching kids.
I have some video lessons here:

  http://young-programmers.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]

on those three, plus Jython and Pygame, Scala and Lift.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569476</id>
	<title>Basus</title>
	<author>sverrehu</author>
	<datestamp>1261999500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I made Basus not long ago.  Successfully tested on about 50 kids.  Read about the idea behind the programming language here: http://basus.no/idea.html<br><br>Get it here: http://basus.no/</htmltext>
<tokenext>I made Basus not long ago .
Successfully tested on about 50 kids .
Read about the idea behind the programming language here : http : //basus.no/idea.htmlGet it here : http : //basus.no/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I made Basus not long ago.
Successfully tested on about 50 kids.
Read about the idea behind the programming language here: http://basus.no/idea.htmlGet it here: http://basus.no/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570408</id>
	<title>First...</title>
	<author>ivandal</author>
	<datestamp>1262011560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>You'll have to start from scratch.
Find an isolated basement or a garage...</htmltext>
<tokenext>You 'll have to start from scratch .
Find an isolated basement or a garage.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You'll have to start from scratch.
Find an isolated basement or a garage...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566668</id>
	<title>Forth</title>
	<author>wonkavader</author>
	<datestamp>1261918140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And buy him/her a robot.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And buy him/her a robot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And buy him/her a robot.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565096</id>
	<title>Re:plain C, python, or ruby</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261905300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>IMHO everything is wrong with C as first language. It gives you dreadful programming style and is not a right tool for application programming. You can mod me as a troll if you want but you've got to chose the best tool for the job and C is a tool for writing operating systems for fuck's sake. It isn't even a high level language. All those buffer overflow security holes happen because of both typical "clever hack" C programming style and choice of using a language for writing operating systems to write business applications.</p><p>Pascal wasn't a very good teaching language for nothing - it forced you to write software in a very clean and readable way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>IMHO everything is wrong with C as first language .
It gives you dreadful programming style and is not a right tool for application programming .
You can mod me as a troll if you want but you 've got to chose the best tool for the job and C is a tool for writing operating systems for fuck 's sake .
It is n't even a high level language .
All those buffer overflow security holes happen because of both typical " clever hack " C programming style and choice of using a language for writing operating systems to write business applications.Pascal was n't a very good teaching language for nothing - it forced you to write software in a very clean and readable way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IMHO everything is wrong with C as first language.
It gives you dreadful programming style and is not a right tool for application programming.
You can mod me as a troll if you want but you've got to chose the best tool for the job and C is a tool for writing operating systems for fuck's sake.
It isn't even a high level language.
All those buffer overflow security holes happen because of both typical "clever hack" C programming style and choice of using a language for writing operating systems to write business applications.Pascal wasn't a very good teaching language for nothing - it forced you to write software in a very clean and readable way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564904</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565298</id>
	<title>Getting There From Here</title>
	<author>DannyO152</author>
	<datestamp>1261906560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The only advantage C has as a language is speed. It is difficult to read and relies on the programmer knowing enough not to shoot themselves in the foot. C++ has bolting upon bolting upon bolting of things in order to deliver OOP, and its primary advantage is the speed of C: it is semantic/syntactic goulash.</p><p>As to today's problem, I gather one of the unspoken issues is picking a language the teacher knows well enough so as to answer the student's questions. Assuming from the phrasing of the question that the asker would like to know the better imperative languages to teach, then, maybe python is the answer. I've heard reports from a teacher of an undergraduate course that the students respond to it fairly well.</p><p>But that brings us to another issue, the age of the student. How we learn differs as we grow through childhood and adolescence and the best language for an 18 year old may be totally unsuited for a 12 year old. Logo and SmallTalk (Squeak) are languages and runtimes which teach children the message and response paradigm of computing application. The Carnegie Mellon people are really excited about Alice as a teaching language.</p><p>The way I look at it, one doesn't teach children about chemistry by launching into the shell model of electrons and discussing valences and bondings. No, one puts some lemon juice on baking soda and then explain what the child saw and in simple terms. Regarding teaching computing and an introduction to languages, I'd want to not bother the child with memory allocations and deallocations and I'm not sure the entry form bias of the Visual languages is all that energizing a subject matter. Interactively creating objects, moving them through space, and causing them to draw seems a lot more promising for introducing a child to the concept of programming.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The only advantage C has as a language is speed .
It is difficult to read and relies on the programmer knowing enough not to shoot themselves in the foot .
C + + has bolting upon bolting upon bolting of things in order to deliver OOP , and its primary advantage is the speed of C : it is semantic/syntactic goulash.As to today 's problem , I gather one of the unspoken issues is picking a language the teacher knows well enough so as to answer the student 's questions .
Assuming from the phrasing of the question that the asker would like to know the better imperative languages to teach , then , maybe python is the answer .
I 've heard reports from a teacher of an undergraduate course that the students respond to it fairly well.But that brings us to another issue , the age of the student .
How we learn differs as we grow through childhood and adolescence and the best language for an 18 year old may be totally unsuited for a 12 year old .
Logo and SmallTalk ( Squeak ) are languages and runtimes which teach children the message and response paradigm of computing application .
The Carnegie Mellon people are really excited about Alice as a teaching language.The way I look at it , one does n't teach children about chemistry by launching into the shell model of electrons and discussing valences and bondings .
No , one puts some lemon juice on baking soda and then explain what the child saw and in simple terms .
Regarding teaching computing and an introduction to languages , I 'd want to not bother the child with memory allocations and deallocations and I 'm not sure the entry form bias of the Visual languages is all that energizing a subject matter .
Interactively creating objects , moving them through space , and causing them to draw seems a lot more promising for introducing a child to the concept of programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only advantage C has as a language is speed.
It is difficult to read and relies on the programmer knowing enough not to shoot themselves in the foot.
C++ has bolting upon bolting upon bolting of things in order to deliver OOP, and its primary advantage is the speed of C: it is semantic/syntactic goulash.As to today's problem, I gather one of the unspoken issues is picking a language the teacher knows well enough so as to answer the student's questions.
Assuming from the phrasing of the question that the asker would like to know the better imperative languages to teach, then, maybe python is the answer.
I've heard reports from a teacher of an undergraduate course that the students respond to it fairly well.But that brings us to another issue, the age of the student.
How we learn differs as we grow through childhood and adolescence and the best language for an 18 year old may be totally unsuited for a 12 year old.
Logo and SmallTalk (Squeak) are languages and runtimes which teach children the message and response paradigm of computing application.
The Carnegie Mellon people are really excited about Alice as a teaching language.The way I look at it, one doesn't teach children about chemistry by launching into the shell model of electrons and discussing valences and bondings.
No, one puts some lemon juice on baking soda and then explain what the child saw and in simple terms.
Regarding teaching computing and an introduction to languages, I'd want to not bother the child with memory allocations and deallocations and I'm not sure the entry form bias of the Visual languages is all that energizing a subject matter.
Interactively creating objects, moving them through space, and causing them to draw seems a lot more promising for introducing a child to the concept of programming.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566012</id>
	<title>processing + openframeworks</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261912260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Definitely I'd say processing - www.processing.org. It's based on Java, with a very simple IDE, just open the text editor, type some code, and press run (check out the provided examples). Then also the path to C/C++ is relatively painless (for C++ i'd recommend starting with openframeworks, www.openframeworks.cc)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Definitely I 'd say processing - www.processing.org .
It 's based on Java , with a very simple IDE , just open the text editor , type some code , and press run ( check out the provided examples ) .
Then also the path to C/C + + is relatively painless ( for C + + i 'd recommend starting with openframeworks , www.openframeworks.cc )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Definitely I'd say processing - www.processing.org.
It's based on Java, with a very simple IDE, just open the text editor, type some code, and press run (check out the provided examples).
Then also the path to C/C++ is relatively painless (for C++ i'd recommend starting with openframeworks, www.openframeworks.cc)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565168</id>
	<title>Re:javascript</title>
	<author>tinytim</author>
	<datestamp>1261905720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>+1 javascript</p><p>If you're not careful, you can learn a lot of bad habits in Javascript since it'll let you do some fairly messy stuff.  This is more than made up for by the lack of a "compile" step, easy and pretty UI, etc.  It's easy to do fun little projects with Javascript.  Use it to set the hook, then branch into more "formal" languages.  If he enjoys programming, he's going to learn Javascript eventually, so you might as well start out with it.</p><p>I can take an HTML/Javascript file with a interactive button and a text box and easily explain every line to most anybody.  I can't think of a more important criteria.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>+ 1 javascriptIf you 're not careful , you can learn a lot of bad habits in Javascript since it 'll let you do some fairly messy stuff .
This is more than made up for by the lack of a " compile " step , easy and pretty UI , etc .
It 's easy to do fun little projects with Javascript .
Use it to set the hook , then branch into more " formal " languages .
If he enjoys programming , he 's going to learn Javascript eventually , so you might as well start out with it.I can take an HTML/Javascript file with a interactive button and a text box and easily explain every line to most anybody .
I ca n't think of a more important criteria .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>+1 javascriptIf you're not careful, you can learn a lot of bad habits in Javascript since it'll let you do some fairly messy stuff.
This is more than made up for by the lack of a "compile" step, easy and pretty UI, etc.
It's easy to do fun little projects with Javascript.
Use it to set the hook, then branch into more "formal" languages.
If he enjoys programming, he's going to learn Javascript eventually, so you might as well start out with it.I can take an HTML/Javascript file with a interactive button and a text box and easily explain every line to most anybody.
I can't think of a more important criteria.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564862</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569238</id>
	<title>Begin with CS fundamentals</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261993920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not sure about a 12 year old - and it depends on how adept they are at mathematics - but I'm teaching my 16 year old bro.-in-law right now. We spend ~4 hours/week and have been doing so for the past several months. We started out by learning binary and how to count in binary, add, subtract, etc. Then boolean logic (logical and, or, not, nand, xor) using the proper CS terms and symbols. Then we moved on to studying computer architecture and hardware (how CPUs work - registers, program counter, etc., how memory works, how hard drives work, etc.). Then a simple introduction to assembly - load, store, add, jmp, etc. and how they're encoded into instructions the CPU uses. We wrote many programs in pure assembly. And then we moved into higher level ideas such as while loops and if-then branching constructs and then pointers. We then practiced hand-creating the assembly from the high-level while/if/switch statements. Having the assembly background made things a lot easier to understand. It was pretty easy to explain what a compiler is and how it works after that. Then we moved into discussing procedural programming (pointer arithmetic, scalar data types such as int, float, double, short, char, etc.) in C. Then object-oriented programming: inheritance, polymorphism, encapsulation, etc. And we're using Java for that. At this point we're just getting comfortable with OOP techniques and making meaningful programs. But we've discussed arrays, objects, linked lists, stacks, queues, hashtables, bubble sort, merge sort, linear search, and binary search.</p><p>I've found that taking a CS approach really helps to understand the big picture and provides insight into why things are done the way they are.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not sure about a 12 year old - and it depends on how adept they are at mathematics - but I 'm teaching my 16 year old bro.-in-law right now .
We spend ~ 4 hours/week and have been doing so for the past several months .
We started out by learning binary and how to count in binary , add , subtract , etc .
Then boolean logic ( logical and , or , not , nand , xor ) using the proper CS terms and symbols .
Then we moved on to studying computer architecture and hardware ( how CPUs work - registers , program counter , etc. , how memory works , how hard drives work , etc. ) .
Then a simple introduction to assembly - load , store , add , jmp , etc .
and how they 're encoded into instructions the CPU uses .
We wrote many programs in pure assembly .
And then we moved into higher level ideas such as while loops and if-then branching constructs and then pointers .
We then practiced hand-creating the assembly from the high-level while/if/switch statements .
Having the assembly background made things a lot easier to understand .
It was pretty easy to explain what a compiler is and how it works after that .
Then we moved into discussing procedural programming ( pointer arithmetic , scalar data types such as int , float , double , short , char , etc .
) in C. Then object-oriented programming : inheritance , polymorphism , encapsulation , etc .
And we 're using Java for that .
At this point we 're just getting comfortable with OOP techniques and making meaningful programs .
But we 've discussed arrays , objects , linked lists , stacks , queues , hashtables , bubble sort , merge sort , linear search , and binary search.I 've found that taking a CS approach really helps to understand the big picture and provides insight into why things are done the way they are .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not sure about a 12 year old - and it depends on how adept they are at mathematics - but I'm teaching my 16 year old bro.-in-law right now.
We spend ~4 hours/week and have been doing so for the past several months.
We started out by learning binary and how to count in binary, add, subtract, etc.
Then boolean logic (logical and, or, not, nand, xor) using the proper CS terms and symbols.
Then we moved on to studying computer architecture and hardware (how CPUs work - registers, program counter, etc., how memory works, how hard drives work, etc.).
Then a simple introduction to assembly - load, store, add, jmp, etc.
and how they're encoded into instructions the CPU uses.
We wrote many programs in pure assembly.
And then we moved into higher level ideas such as while loops and if-then branching constructs and then pointers.
We then practiced hand-creating the assembly from the high-level while/if/switch statements.
Having the assembly background made things a lot easier to understand.
It was pretty easy to explain what a compiler is and how it works after that.
Then we moved into discussing procedural programming (pointer arithmetic, scalar data types such as int, float, double, short, char, etc.
) in C. Then object-oriented programming: inheritance, polymorphism, encapsulation, etc.
And we're using Java for that.
At this point we're just getting comfortable with OOP techniques and making meaningful programs.
But we've discussed arrays, objects, linked lists, stacks, queues, hashtables, bubble sort, merge sort, linear search, and binary search.I've found that taking a CS approach really helps to understand the big picture and provides insight into why things are done the way they are.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30578186</id>
	<title>Visual Basic</title>
	<author>trelamenos</author>
	<datestamp>1262012100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I started as a child to program with Visual Basic 6.0 about 10 years ago.... i think its the best choice for a child....

it get me very fast to the graphical development but also show me the basics about variables, function etc etc

i think it going to be the best choice but try to find version 6.0 cause newer version are very complicated.....<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</htmltext>
<tokenext>I started as a child to program with Visual Basic 6.0 about 10 years ago.... i think its the best choice for a child... . it get me very fast to the graphical development but also show me the basics about variables , function etc etc i think it going to be the best choice but try to find version 6.0 cause newer version are very complicated..... : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started as a child to program with Visual Basic 6.0 about 10 years ago.... i think its the best choice for a child....

it get me very fast to the graphical development but also show me the basics about variables, function etc etc

i think it going to be the best choice but try to find version 6.0 cause newer version are very complicated..... :)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569434</id>
	<title>Re:plain C, python, or ruby</title>
	<author>m6ack</author>
	<datestamp>1261998480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"It gives you dreadful programming style." -- beg to differ.  Teaches you pointers, teaches you to be careful, and to be careful specifically about memory allocation/deallocation.  If you choose to program procedurally, that's fine with C.  If you chose to program functionally, you may do so via pointer to function...  If you choose Object Oriented Programming, such is facilitated via. structures and pointers.  As a bonus, when you compile to assembly, you can actually make sense of the output.
</p><p>"not a right tool for applications programming" -- beg to differ.  Most serious programming efforts are in C.  Many, if not most, compilers and interpreters are written in C.  GTK is written in C.  Most all basic applications in the UNIX tool chain are written in C.  As a bonus, you can  libraries natively.
</p><p>"It Isn't even a high level language." -- Um... that's a bad thing?
</p><p>"All those buffer overruns[...]" -- were cause by people that learned BASIC, Pascal, or Java as their first language &amp; couldn't be bothered to compile with -Wall and run with Valgrind.
</p><p>"You can mod me as a troll[...]" -- Um... OK... so long as we have your permission...  I'll not presume to say that C is the language to start off a 12 year old, but I would say that I believe it is the lingua franca or even the <i>root</i> of all portable computer languages -- of which no programmer should be without a thorough understanding and appreciation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" It gives you dreadful programming style .
" -- beg to differ .
Teaches you pointers , teaches you to be careful , and to be careful specifically about memory allocation/deallocation .
If you choose to program procedurally , that 's fine with C. If you chose to program functionally , you may do so via pointer to function... If you choose Object Oriented Programming , such is facilitated via .
structures and pointers .
As a bonus , when you compile to assembly , you can actually make sense of the output .
" not a right tool for applications programming " -- beg to differ .
Most serious programming efforts are in C. Many , if not most , compilers and interpreters are written in C. GTK is written in C. Most all basic applications in the UNIX tool chain are written in C. As a bonus , you can libraries natively .
" It Is n't even a high level language .
" -- Um... that 's a bad thing ?
" All those buffer overruns [ ... ] " -- were cause by people that learned BASIC , Pascal , or Java as their first language &amp; could n't be bothered to compile with -Wall and run with Valgrind .
" You can mod me as a troll [ ... ] " -- Um... OK... so long as we have your permission... I 'll not presume to say that C is the language to start off a 12 year old , but I would say that I believe it is the lingua franca or even the root of all portable computer languages -- of which no programmer should be without a thorough understanding and appreciation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"It gives you dreadful programming style.
" -- beg to differ.
Teaches you pointers, teaches you to be careful, and to be careful specifically about memory allocation/deallocation.
If you choose to program procedurally, that's fine with C.  If you chose to program functionally, you may do so via pointer to function...  If you choose Object Oriented Programming, such is facilitated via.
structures and pointers.
As a bonus, when you compile to assembly, you can actually make sense of the output.
"not a right tool for applications programming" -- beg to differ.
Most serious programming efforts are in C.  Many, if not most, compilers and interpreters are written in C.  GTK is written in C.  Most all basic applications in the UNIX tool chain are written in C.  As a bonus, you can  libraries natively.
"It Isn't even a high level language.
" -- Um... that's a bad thing?
"All those buffer overruns[...]" -- were cause by people that learned BASIC, Pascal, or Java as their first language &amp; couldn't be bothered to compile with -Wall and run with Valgrind.
"You can mod me as a troll[...]" -- Um... OK... so long as we have your permission...  I'll not presume to say that C is the language to start off a 12 year old, but I would say that I believe it is the lingua franca or even the root of all portable computer languages -- of which no programmer should be without a thorough understanding and appreciation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565096</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566898</id>
	<title>Component Pascal</title>
	<author>Goondra</author>
	<datestamp>1261920120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Component Pascal is a successor of Pascal which follows the evolutionary line:<br>Pascal=&gt;Modula=&gt;Oberon=&gt;Component Pascal</p><p>Niklaus Wirth has spent his life designing clean succinct syntax and semantic systems.</p><p>If one wishes to truly understand computer programming without unnecessary baggage then<br>I would strongly recommend the BlackBox/Component Pascal development environment to a new student.<br>see</p><p><a href="http://www.oberon.ch/blackbox.html" title="oberon.ch" rel="nofollow">http://www.oberon.ch/blackbox.html</a> [oberon.ch]</p><p>Scroll down to Free Download.<br>The total development environment is about 10MB<br>and comes with complete documentation and examples.</p><p>Enjoy</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Component Pascal is a successor of Pascal which follows the evolutionary line : Pascal = &gt; Modula = &gt; Oberon = &gt; Component PascalNiklaus Wirth has spent his life designing clean succinct syntax and semantic systems.If one wishes to truly understand computer programming without unnecessary baggage thenI would strongly recommend the BlackBox/Component Pascal development environment to a new student.seehttp : //www.oberon.ch/blackbox.html [ oberon.ch ] Scroll down to Free Download.The total development environment is about 10MBand comes with complete documentation and examples.Enjoy</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Component Pascal is a successor of Pascal which follows the evolutionary line:Pascal=&gt;Modula=&gt;Oberon=&gt;Component PascalNiklaus Wirth has spent his life designing clean succinct syntax and semantic systems.If one wishes to truly understand computer programming without unnecessary baggage thenI would strongly recommend the BlackBox/Component Pascal development environment to a new student.seehttp://www.oberon.ch/blackbox.html [oberon.ch]Scroll down to Free Download.The total development environment is about 10MBand comes with complete documentation and examples.Enjoy</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565454</id>
	<title>Re:Python</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261907580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes. I wrote a python version of scrabble in 9th grade, (a little older than your brother). Alternatively, PHP. Teach him HTML to start out with, and then ramp up to PHP. PHP is dead simple to learn, and can do cool stuff.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes .
I wrote a python version of scrabble in 9th grade , ( a little older than your brother ) .
Alternatively , PHP .
Teach him HTML to start out with , and then ramp up to PHP .
PHP is dead simple to learn , and can do cool stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes.
I wrote a python version of scrabble in 9th grade, (a little older than your brother).
Alternatively, PHP.
Teach him HTML to start out with, and then ramp up to PHP.
PHP is dead simple to learn, and can do cool stuff.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565230</id>
	<title>Lisp or Assembly</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261906080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Either Lisp or Assembly.  If you go the assembly route pick an architecture like 6800, MIPS, ARM, AVR.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Either Lisp or Assembly .
If you go the assembly route pick an architecture like 6800 , MIPS , ARM , AVR .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Either Lisp or Assembly.
If you go the assembly route pick an architecture like 6800, MIPS, ARM, AVR.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30572636</id>
	<title>How to teach a 12-year old to program?</title>
	<author>jarome</author>
	<datestamp>1262023320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The real problem with teaching kids to program in to get a problem they want to solve.</p><p>You should try Alice. At SC08, I saw a room of 8-14 year-old kids doing Alice, and you could not tear them away from the computer. The original Alice was designed for middle-school girls, but Alice 2 has all the Sims characters, so kids can create a virtual world. And even better, the new Alice spits out a NetBeans project and Java code, so you can make the jump to "real" programming.<br><a href="http://www.alice.org/" title="alice.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.alice.org/</a> [alice.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The real problem with teaching kids to program in to get a problem they want to solve.You should try Alice .
At SC08 , I saw a room of 8-14 year-old kids doing Alice , and you could not tear them away from the computer .
The original Alice was designed for middle-school girls , but Alice 2 has all the Sims characters , so kids can create a virtual world .
And even better , the new Alice spits out a NetBeans project and Java code , so you can make the jump to " real " programming.http : //www.alice.org/ [ alice.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The real problem with teaching kids to program in to get a problem they want to solve.You should try Alice.
At SC08, I saw a room of 8-14 year-old kids doing Alice, and you could not tear them away from the computer.
The original Alice was designed for middle-school girls, but Alice 2 has all the Sims characters, so kids can create a virtual world.
And even better, the new Alice spits out a NetBeans project and Java code, so you can make the jump to "real" programming.http://www.alice.org/ [alice.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565324</id>
	<title>should you bother?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261906680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My brother tried with all his might to get me into QBASIC when I was that age. I refused to use it, because it looked like a shitty language compared to C/C++. I also avoided PASCAL like a plague because it looked ridiculous and no one was really using it for anything meaningful. JAVA didn't exist back then.</p><p>I also refused to use C, when I saw how much more sophisticated C++ was. As a result, the very first language I taught myself was C++ when I was 13. Then after I became proficient in it, I learned to code C and became a C bigot for awhile due to the fact that C++ was more bloated and cumbersome. I used Linux and C throughout all of high school, and hung out on #c on efnet.</p><p>When I got into college, I decided to focus on C++ again because at that point I started to realize the strength of OOP designs. Even though the programs were longer, bloated, slightly slower, and more cumbersome they ultimately led to more interesting programs and easily maintainable/readable code. I still avoided JAVA which now existed, for the same reasons I had left C++ originally.</p><p>After I graduated I got my first job because of C++. Though, while on the job I began to see the benefit of a language like JAVA for simplifying cross platform development and GUI development. This is because, for the first time, I was forced to code MFC on Windows for GUI development, which I had not yet been exposed to. It was to me the most disgusting API I had ever seen in my life. I was required to do it because the lead developer had developed their Windows program with MFC using ATL which *supposedly* made it easier to read but not by much. The move to JAVA for me made sense because of the pristine GUI API and also because the owners of the company wanted me to port the MFC application to Linux. I ended up rewriting the application in JAVA on both Windows and Linux and we were able to make it into an embedded application in a very small device even which is something they had always wanted to do.</p><p>At this point I gave up C/C++ entirely and became a JAVA advocate, I also tried my hand a year later at C# and rewrote their application in C# on a handheld PDA using the compact framework. I made one of the biggest mistake in my careers when I wrote a memo criticizing their inability to hire a proper manager. They had laid off my manager and as a result I didn't have any direction and was just coding random software, which while fun was leading to situations where I was being yelled at for not having focus and being given poor yearly reviews. So, I had written an email to one of the managers of the EE department, who was the one yelling at me, stating that because they refused to hire a proper manager and were having me managed by his son who never showed up to work I didn't deserve to get bad reviews and I refused to sign off on a poor review, I said I'd rather resign. Then bam, next morning he sat me down and shook my hand and said resignation accepted. I was out the door minutes later shocked with all my books in my hands. I never thought they would essentially fire me, because I was their only good programmer who knew their platform inside and out and I was such a hard worker.</p><p>My next job, which I got about eight months of job searching required I go back to C++. They didn't like C# or JAVA and only wanted their code done in C++ and Visual Basic 6 lol. Of course, I turned my nose up at VB6 but I learned and coded it anyways because they demanded it. I also learned VB.NET with the hope they would let me rewrite it, but they never did. I wrote some programs for them in C# that they ended up allowing, though they didn't like. They ended up laying me off, after a couple of years, even though again I had become one of their most proficient programmers and they had invested a lot of time in me. I think my lack of focus and programming in languages they didn't like probably again led to my dismissal. That, and they replaced me with cheap labor from india. I met one of my replacements as I was on my way out, he had only been in the countr</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My brother tried with all his might to get me into QBASIC when I was that age .
I refused to use it , because it looked like a shitty language compared to C/C + + .
I also avoided PASCAL like a plague because it looked ridiculous and no one was really using it for anything meaningful .
JAVA did n't exist back then.I also refused to use C , when I saw how much more sophisticated C + + was .
As a result , the very first language I taught myself was C + + when I was 13 .
Then after I became proficient in it , I learned to code C and became a C bigot for awhile due to the fact that C + + was more bloated and cumbersome .
I used Linux and C throughout all of high school , and hung out on # c on efnet.When I got into college , I decided to focus on C + + again because at that point I started to realize the strength of OOP designs .
Even though the programs were longer , bloated , slightly slower , and more cumbersome they ultimately led to more interesting programs and easily maintainable/readable code .
I still avoided JAVA which now existed , for the same reasons I had left C + + originally.After I graduated I got my first job because of C + + .
Though , while on the job I began to see the benefit of a language like JAVA for simplifying cross platform development and GUI development .
This is because , for the first time , I was forced to code MFC on Windows for GUI development , which I had not yet been exposed to .
It was to me the most disgusting API I had ever seen in my life .
I was required to do it because the lead developer had developed their Windows program with MFC using ATL which * supposedly * made it easier to read but not by much .
The move to JAVA for me made sense because of the pristine GUI API and also because the owners of the company wanted me to port the MFC application to Linux .
I ended up rewriting the application in JAVA on both Windows and Linux and we were able to make it into an embedded application in a very small device even which is something they had always wanted to do.At this point I gave up C/C + + entirely and became a JAVA advocate , I also tried my hand a year later at C # and rewrote their application in C # on a handheld PDA using the compact framework .
I made one of the biggest mistake in my careers when I wrote a memo criticizing their inability to hire a proper manager .
They had laid off my manager and as a result I did n't have any direction and was just coding random software , which while fun was leading to situations where I was being yelled at for not having focus and being given poor yearly reviews .
So , I had written an email to one of the managers of the EE department , who was the one yelling at me , stating that because they refused to hire a proper manager and were having me managed by his son who never showed up to work I did n't deserve to get bad reviews and I refused to sign off on a poor review , I said I 'd rather resign .
Then bam , next morning he sat me down and shook my hand and said resignation accepted .
I was out the door minutes later shocked with all my books in my hands .
I never thought they would essentially fire me , because I was their only good programmer who knew their platform inside and out and I was such a hard worker.My next job , which I got about eight months of job searching required I go back to C + + .
They did n't like C # or JAVA and only wanted their code done in C + + and Visual Basic 6 lol .
Of course , I turned my nose up at VB6 but I learned and coded it anyways because they demanded it .
I also learned VB.NET with the hope they would let me rewrite it , but they never did .
I wrote some programs for them in C # that they ended up allowing , though they did n't like .
They ended up laying me off , after a couple of years , even though again I had become one of their most proficient programmers and they had invested a lot of time in me .
I think my lack of focus and programming in languages they did n't like probably again led to my dismissal .
That , and they replaced me with cheap labor from india .
I met one of my replacements as I was on my way out , he had only been in the countr</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My brother tried with all his might to get me into QBASIC when I was that age.
I refused to use it, because it looked like a shitty language compared to C/C++.
I also avoided PASCAL like a plague because it looked ridiculous and no one was really using it for anything meaningful.
JAVA didn't exist back then.I also refused to use C, when I saw how much more sophisticated C++ was.
As a result, the very first language I taught myself was C++ when I was 13.
Then after I became proficient in it, I learned to code C and became a C bigot for awhile due to the fact that C++ was more bloated and cumbersome.
I used Linux and C throughout all of high school, and hung out on #c on efnet.When I got into college, I decided to focus on C++ again because at that point I started to realize the strength of OOP designs.
Even though the programs were longer, bloated, slightly slower, and more cumbersome they ultimately led to more interesting programs and easily maintainable/readable code.
I still avoided JAVA which now existed, for the same reasons I had left C++ originally.After I graduated I got my first job because of C++.
Though, while on the job I began to see the benefit of a language like JAVA for simplifying cross platform development and GUI development.
This is because, for the first time, I was forced to code MFC on Windows for GUI development, which I had not yet been exposed to.
It was to me the most disgusting API I had ever seen in my life.
I was required to do it because the lead developer had developed their Windows program with MFC using ATL which *supposedly* made it easier to read but not by much.
The move to JAVA for me made sense because of the pristine GUI API and also because the owners of the company wanted me to port the MFC application to Linux.
I ended up rewriting the application in JAVA on both Windows and Linux and we were able to make it into an embedded application in a very small device even which is something they had always wanted to do.At this point I gave up C/C++ entirely and became a JAVA advocate, I also tried my hand a year later at C# and rewrote their application in C# on a handheld PDA using the compact framework.
I made one of the biggest mistake in my careers when I wrote a memo criticizing their inability to hire a proper manager.
They had laid off my manager and as a result I didn't have any direction and was just coding random software, which while fun was leading to situations where I was being yelled at for not having focus and being given poor yearly reviews.
So, I had written an email to one of the managers of the EE department, who was the one yelling at me, stating that because they refused to hire a proper manager and were having me managed by his son who never showed up to work I didn't deserve to get bad reviews and I refused to sign off on a poor review, I said I'd rather resign.
Then bam, next morning he sat me down and shook my hand and said resignation accepted.
I was out the door minutes later shocked with all my books in my hands.
I never thought they would essentially fire me, because I was their only good programmer who knew their platform inside and out and I was such a hard worker.My next job, which I got about eight months of job searching required I go back to C++.
They didn't like C# or JAVA and only wanted their code done in C++ and Visual Basic 6 lol.
Of course, I turned my nose up at VB6 but I learned and coded it anyways because they demanded it.
I also learned VB.NET with the hope they would let me rewrite it, but they never did.
I wrote some programs for them in C# that they ended up allowing, though they didn't like.
They ended up laying me off, after a couple of years, even though again I had become one of their most proficient programmers and they had invested a lot of time in me.
I think my lack of focus and programming in languages they didn't like probably again led to my dismissal.
That, and they replaced me with cheap labor from india.
I met one of my replacements as I was on my way out, he had only been in the countr</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568510</id>
	<title>Ease into it in a fun and graphical way</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261938600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Scratch. http://scratch.mit.edu/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Scratch .
http : //scratch.mit.edu/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Scratch.
http://scratch.mit.edu/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565858</id>
	<title>fortran</title>
	<author>phrostie</author>
	<datestamp>1261911180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Start him off with fortran.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Start him off with fortran .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Start him off with fortran.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565088</id>
	<title>Re:Python</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261905240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Whether you choose python or something else, you could start fiddling around <a href="http://ideone.com/" title="ideone.com" rel="nofollow">here</a> [ideone.com] before going through the hassle of installing a development environment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Whether you choose python or something else , you could start fiddling around here [ ideone.com ] before going through the hassle of installing a development environment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Whether you choose python or something else, you could start fiddling around here [ideone.com] before going through the hassle of installing a development environment.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565728</id>
	<title>Re:Perl</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1261909860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That way, he'll either write Haikus and become a rock star programmer,<br>or write Haikus and go raving mad and prove the rest of Hilbert's unsolved problems.</p></div><p>I thought that&rsquo;s the same thing... ^^</p><p>Oh, and never forget: Don&rsquo;t make another basement dweller.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That way , he 'll either write Haikus and become a rock star programmer,or write Haikus and go raving mad and prove the rest of Hilbert 's unsolved problems.I thought that    s the same thing... ^ ^ Oh , and never forget : Don    t make another basement dweller .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That way, he'll either write Haikus and become a rock star programmer,or write Haikus and go raving mad and prove the rest of Hilbert's unsolved problems.I thought that’s the same thing... ^^Oh, and never forget: Don’t make another basement dweller.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565002</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30585208</id>
	<title>Game addiction + Possibility to modify game</title>
	<author>Inyu</author>
	<datestamp>1262118360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>1. Make him or her like a challenging game. <br>
2. Show that he or she can win by changing the game from the inside<br>
<br>
At least, this is what happened to me when I was 11, playing games that were written in BASIC.</htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
Make him or her like a challenging game .
2. Show that he or she can win by changing the game from the inside At least , this is what happened to me when I was 11 , playing games that were written in BASIC .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
Make him or her like a challenging game.
2. Show that he or she can win by changing the game from the inside

At least, this is what happened to me when I was 11, playing games that were written in BASIC.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565216</id>
	<title>Linden Scripting Language</title>
	<author>Baloo Uriza</author>
	<datestamp>1261906020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://opensimulator.org/" title="opensimulator.org" rel="nofollow">Open Simulator</a> [opensimulator.org] (which is what <a href="http://osgrid.org/" title="osgrid.org" rel="nofollow">OSGrid</a> [osgrid.org] runs) and <a href="http://www.secondlife.com/" title="secondlife.com" rel="nofollow">Second Life</a> [secondlife.com] both support LSL, and you can see tangible results from your code almost immediately after writing it.  This will probably be a little bit more attention-holding than your typical hacking environment.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Open Simulator [ opensimulator.org ] ( which is what OSGrid [ osgrid.org ] runs ) and Second Life [ secondlife.com ] both support LSL , and you can see tangible results from your code almost immediately after writing it .
This will probably be a little bit more attention-holding than your typical hacking environment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Open Simulator [opensimulator.org] (which is what OSGrid [osgrid.org] runs) and Second Life [secondlife.com] both support LSL, and you can see tangible results from your code almost immediately after writing it.
This will probably be a little bit more attention-holding than your typical hacking environment.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566284</id>
	<title>Re:HTML and Javascript</title>
	<author>uhmmmm</author>
	<datestamp>1261914660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Javascript, maybe.  I don't have much experience with it, so I can't comment.<br><br>But I have to disagree with HTML.  HTML is not programming.  Seriously, making a simple webpage in HTML is like typing a document in Word, except typing &lt;b&gt;text&lt;/b&gt; instead of hitting the bold button on the toolbar.  If that's programming, then typing up a paper for high school English class is too.<br><br>HTML \_can\_ lead into Javascript, PHP, and other facets of web programming.  But it's not programming in itself, and if the goal is to introduce him to programming, making him learn HTML before he can start learning programming seems like the wrong way to go about it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Javascript , maybe .
I do n't have much experience with it , so I ca n't comment.But I have to disagree with HTML .
HTML is not programming .
Seriously , making a simple webpage in HTML is like typing a document in Word , except typing text instead of hitting the bold button on the toolbar .
If that 's programming , then typing up a paper for high school English class is too.HTML \ _can \ _ lead into Javascript , PHP , and other facets of web programming .
But it 's not programming in itself , and if the goal is to introduce him to programming , making him learn HTML before he can start learning programming seems like the wrong way to go about it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Javascript, maybe.
I don't have much experience with it, so I can't comment.But I have to disagree with HTML.
HTML is not programming.
Seriously, making a simple webpage in HTML is like typing a document in Word, except typing text instead of hitting the bold button on the toolbar.
If that's programming, then typing up a paper for high school English class is too.HTML \_can\_ lead into Javascript, PHP, and other facets of web programming.
But it's not programming in itself, and if the goal is to introduce him to programming, making him learn HTML before he can start learning programming seems like the wrong way to go about it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566004</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565600</id>
	<title>Well... Java.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261908840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Assuming you'll be heavily involved and you know Java (or are willing to learn), I'd go with Java+NetBeans (or Java+Eclipse, or whatever). You'll program the framework (like a canvas for drawing), and let your brother to put the meat into it. Don't try to do any object oriented stuff, just imperative programming that happens to be in a class method. You'll provide a class with just one empty function with the canvas (or whatever) as argument to start with (and "throws Exception" so he doesn't need to worry about those, and whatever else secondary comes up). And then, program away.</p><p>Using Java above is beside the point. The real point is, good IDE will show typos and syntax errors, and provide immediate argument help for any functions he wants to call, and has "scripting language feel" even though it's compiled. Oh, and teach him to let the IDE auto-format the code. That way he'll learn to look at correctly formatted code, while not being burdened with having to be pedantic himself, and he'll learn that if auto-formatting formats the code wrong, then there's a syntax error. I'd go as far as to bind auto-formatting to TAB key... In general, let him skip the required pedantry of any modern, complex programming language by letting the IDE show how it's done. Java just happens to be one of the languages with best free, modern, fully-featured IDEs, while not being the horror known as C++...</p><p>I wouldn't recommend Python, it's too big and complicated for a first language IMHO, and I don't think there are good enough IDEs (or good enough Python support in existing IDEs) to compensate for it. Once he know the basics of programming, then python+pygame or python+pyglet can be a lot of fun, but getting started with them has the risk of getting frustrated with run-time exceptions that should be compile-time errors, manually keeping the indentation right, and perhaps too many complex concepts to start with.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Assuming you 'll be heavily involved and you know Java ( or are willing to learn ) , I 'd go with Java + NetBeans ( or Java + Eclipse , or whatever ) .
You 'll program the framework ( like a canvas for drawing ) , and let your brother to put the meat into it .
Do n't try to do any object oriented stuff , just imperative programming that happens to be in a class method .
You 'll provide a class with just one empty function with the canvas ( or whatever ) as argument to start with ( and " throws Exception " so he does n't need to worry about those , and whatever else secondary comes up ) .
And then , program away.Using Java above is beside the point .
The real point is , good IDE will show typos and syntax errors , and provide immediate argument help for any functions he wants to call , and has " scripting language feel " even though it 's compiled .
Oh , and teach him to let the IDE auto-format the code .
That way he 'll learn to look at correctly formatted code , while not being burdened with having to be pedantic himself , and he 'll learn that if auto-formatting formats the code wrong , then there 's a syntax error .
I 'd go as far as to bind auto-formatting to TAB key... In general , let him skip the required pedantry of any modern , complex programming language by letting the IDE show how it 's done .
Java just happens to be one of the languages with best free , modern , fully-featured IDEs , while not being the horror known as C + + ...I would n't recommend Python , it 's too big and complicated for a first language IMHO , and I do n't think there are good enough IDEs ( or good enough Python support in existing IDEs ) to compensate for it .
Once he know the basics of programming , then python + pygame or python + pyglet can be a lot of fun , but getting started with them has the risk of getting frustrated with run-time exceptions that should be compile-time errors , manually keeping the indentation right , and perhaps too many complex concepts to start with .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Assuming you'll be heavily involved and you know Java (or are willing to learn), I'd go with Java+NetBeans (or Java+Eclipse, or whatever).
You'll program the framework (like a canvas for drawing), and let your brother to put the meat into it.
Don't try to do any object oriented stuff, just imperative programming that happens to be in a class method.
You'll provide a class with just one empty function with the canvas (or whatever) as argument to start with (and "throws Exception" so he doesn't need to worry about those, and whatever else secondary comes up).
And then, program away.Using Java above is beside the point.
The real point is, good IDE will show typos and syntax errors, and provide immediate argument help for any functions he wants to call, and has "scripting language feel" even though it's compiled.
Oh, and teach him to let the IDE auto-format the code.
That way he'll learn to look at correctly formatted code, while not being burdened with having to be pedantic himself, and he'll learn that if auto-formatting formats the code wrong, then there's a syntax error.
I'd go as far as to bind auto-formatting to TAB key... In general, let him skip the required pedantry of any modern, complex programming language by letting the IDE show how it's done.
Java just happens to be one of the languages with best free, modern, fully-featured IDEs, while not being the horror known as C++...I wouldn't recommend Python, it's too big and complicated for a first language IMHO, and I don't think there are good enough IDEs (or good enough Python support in existing IDEs) to compensate for it.
Once he know the basics of programming, then python+pygame or python+pyglet can be a lot of fun, but getting started with them has the risk of getting frustrated with run-time exceptions that should be compile-time errors, manually keeping the indentation right, and perhaps too many complex concepts to start with.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565522</id>
	<title>If they use Windows...</title>
	<author>spywhere</author>
	<datestamp>1261908300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>...teach them the CMD-environment batch file language, which became a real computer language sometime around 2001 and becomes better and more powerful with each successive iteration of Windows.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...teach them the CMD-environment batch file language , which became a real computer language sometime around 2001 and becomes better and more powerful with each successive iteration of Windows .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...teach them the CMD-environment batch file language, which became a real computer language sometime around 2001 and becomes better and more powerful with each successive iteration of Windows.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565184</id>
	<title>Um. No.</title>
	<author>zizzo</author>
	<datestamp>1261905780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your question has a lot of what you want, not what he wants. So ponder that for a moment: if he doesn't have any interest, you're wasting both your time and his time, plus causing aggravation and friction. Ask him if he's interested, ask him what kinds of things he would like to develop, and go from there.</p><p>Javascript, by the way, is the new BASIC. It's ubiquitous and you can get results quickly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your question has a lot of what you want , not what he wants .
So ponder that for a moment : if he does n't have any interest , you 're wasting both your time and his time , plus causing aggravation and friction .
Ask him if he 's interested , ask him what kinds of things he would like to develop , and go from there.Javascript , by the way , is the new BASIC .
It 's ubiquitous and you can get results quickly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your question has a lot of what you want, not what he wants.
So ponder that for a moment: if he doesn't have any interest, you're wasting both your time and his time, plus causing aggravation and friction.
Ask him if he's interested, ask him what kinds of things he would like to develop, and go from there.Javascript, by the way, is the new BASIC.
It's ubiquitous and you can get results quickly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567520</id>
	<title>Linden Scripting Language</title>
	<author>Ken Broadfoot</author>
	<datestamp>1261925580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Linden Scripting would be fun for the kid and it follows good programming syntax. Visuals? Not bad in Second Life. Just keep him out of the Adult Areas, or he won't do any programming<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Linden Scripting would be fun for the kid and it follows good programming syntax .
Visuals ? Not bad in Second Life .
Just keep him out of the Adult Areas , or he wo n't do any programming ; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Linden Scripting would be fun for the kid and it follows good programming syntax.
Visuals? Not bad in Second Life.
Just keep him out of the Adult Areas, or he won't do any programming ;)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568870</id>
	<title>Re:Python</title>
	<author>roto3</author>
	<datestamp>1262030700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If a high-level language like Python works for what he wants to do, then there <em>isn't</em> any reason to ever give it up.  Code doesn't become magically better when it's written in C.  Good, fast, and stable code for many applications can be written in high-level languages too.</p><p>If he goes on to become a proficient programmer, he will recognize that sometimes it <em>is</em> necessary to go to a lower-level language, whether it be for performance, linking against C libraries, or writing system code or plugins that must be directly executable.  When that time comes, he'll learn C or something else.  If he never gets to that point because he's satisfied staying at a higher level, then what's the problem?  He'll have developed some great high-level programming skills he'd never have if he lost interest because the learning curve of a lower-level language was too steep.</p><p>The most important thing is that he learns stuff that keeps him interested.  There is no perfect way to learn everything there is to know about computer science, so let him explore in the directions he wants to go.  If he gets "corrupted" by a particular approach, then he probably didn't really have the interest to become a computer scientist in the first place.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If a high-level language like Python works for what he wants to do , then there is n't any reason to ever give it up .
Code does n't become magically better when it 's written in C. Good , fast , and stable code for many applications can be written in high-level languages too.If he goes on to become a proficient programmer , he will recognize that sometimes it is necessary to go to a lower-level language , whether it be for performance , linking against C libraries , or writing system code or plugins that must be directly executable .
When that time comes , he 'll learn C or something else .
If he never gets to that point because he 's satisfied staying at a higher level , then what 's the problem ?
He 'll have developed some great high-level programming skills he 'd never have if he lost interest because the learning curve of a lower-level language was too steep.The most important thing is that he learns stuff that keeps him interested .
There is no perfect way to learn everything there is to know about computer science , so let him explore in the directions he wants to go .
If he gets " corrupted " by a particular approach , then he probably did n't really have the interest to become a computer scientist in the first place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If a high-level language like Python works for what he wants to do, then there isn't any reason to ever give it up.
Code doesn't become magically better when it's written in C.  Good, fast, and stable code for many applications can be written in high-level languages too.If he goes on to become a proficient programmer, he will recognize that sometimes it is necessary to go to a lower-level language, whether it be for performance, linking against C libraries, or writing system code or plugins that must be directly executable.
When that time comes, he'll learn C or something else.
If he never gets to that point because he's satisfied staying at a higher level, then what's the problem?
He'll have developed some great high-level programming skills he'd never have if he lost interest because the learning curve of a lower-level language was too steep.The most important thing is that he learns stuff that keeps him interested.
There is no perfect way to learn everything there is to know about computer science, so let him explore in the directions he wants to go.
If he gets "corrupted" by a particular approach, then he probably didn't really have the interest to become a computer scientist in the first place.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564880</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30575248</id>
	<title>Arduino</title>
	<author>Xamusk</author>
	<datestamp>1261992540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Get him an Arduino. That way you can kickstart him in both programming and electronics.
</p><p>
Also, the Arduino was actually built for people that don't already know how to program.
</p><p>
And kids love blinking lights<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Get him an Arduino .
That way you can kickstart him in both programming and electronics .
Also , the Arduino was actually built for people that do n't already know how to program .
And kids love blinking lights : D</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get him an Arduino.
That way you can kickstart him in both programming and electronics.
Also, the Arduino was actually built for people that don't already know how to program.
And kids love blinking lights :D</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565422</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565816</id>
	<title>Groovy?</title>
	<author>bb5ch39t</author>
	<datestamp>1261910700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Is a fairly nice language. It is based on the Java JVM bytecode. The plus of this is that you can use Java code and libraries with Groovy. It also has a Web framework called Grails (like Rails, but with Groovy / Java as the language instead of Ruby). The syntax is fairly simple and easier than Java. The main plus is that you don't need to define your variables before hand. Groovy will determine the type when it is first defined. And semicolons are generally optional.
<p>
<a href="http://groovy.codehaus.org/" title="codehaus.org">http://groovy.codehaus.org/</a> [codehaus.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is a fairly nice language .
It is based on the Java JVM bytecode .
The plus of this is that you can use Java code and libraries with Groovy .
It also has a Web framework called Grails ( like Rails , but with Groovy / Java as the language instead of Ruby ) .
The syntax is fairly simple and easier than Java .
The main plus is that you do n't need to define your variables before hand .
Groovy will determine the type when it is first defined .
And semicolons are generally optional .
http : //groovy.codehaus.org/ [ codehaus.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is a fairly nice language.
It is based on the Java JVM bytecode.
The plus of this is that you can use Java code and libraries with Groovy.
It also has a Web framework called Grails (like Rails, but with Groovy / Java as the language instead of Ruby).
The syntax is fairly simple and easier than Java.
The main plus is that you don't need to define your variables before hand.
Groovy will determine the type when it is first defined.
And semicolons are generally optional.
http://groovy.codehaus.org/ [codehaus.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565958</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>joshuao3</author>
	<datestamp>1261911840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree that the interest needs to be there.  When I was 10 I taught myself BASIC, moved on to Pascal by 12, Assembly at 14, over to C, back to Java, etc, etc, etc.  Once a programmer gets their feet wet with a couple different types of languages the sky is the limit, but something has got to "click" early on or it's just not going to work.  <br> <br>

I wish Logo were still available, because that would be perfect--instant gratification is what kids at that age like.  You may even want to look at Macro programming in some of the MS Office apps since it provides fairly instant feedback in a controlled environment.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree that the interest needs to be there .
When I was 10 I taught myself BASIC , moved on to Pascal by 12 , Assembly at 14 , over to C , back to Java , etc , etc , etc .
Once a programmer gets their feet wet with a couple different types of languages the sky is the limit , but something has got to " click " early on or it 's just not going to work .
I wish Logo were still available , because that would be perfect--instant gratification is what kids at that age like .
You may even want to look at Macro programming in some of the MS Office apps since it provides fairly instant feedback in a controlled environment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree that the interest needs to be there.
When I was 10 I taught myself BASIC, moved on to Pascal by 12, Assembly at 14, over to C, back to Java, etc, etc, etc.
Once a programmer gets their feet wet with a couple different types of languages the sky is the limit, but something has got to "click" early on or it's just not going to work.
I wish Logo were still available, because that would be perfect--instant gratification is what kids at that age like.
You may even want to look at Macro programming in some of the MS Office apps since it provides fairly instant feedback in a controlled environment.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565222</id>
	<title>C, PERL, PHP</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261906020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Personally, I picked up C as my first language when I was 12, so I know that other people can do it, too -- depending on how dedicated he is.</p><p>Another thought is PERL; I have a friend from middle school that learned PERL as his first language when he was in 8th grade and continued to use it until college, when he switched to python.</p><p>Finally, PHP could be quite nice -- simple, C-style syntax with capabilities out the wazoo, plus it allows him to use either structured or OO style programming and transition between the two, depending on where he starts. Another nice thing about PHP is the ability to make things happen quickly. In other programming languages, if a person wants to set up a GUI, there's (generally) a lot of work involved. With PHP, it's very simple (and we all know that kids like purdy graficks).</p><p>Ultimately, as others have said, it depends on your brother's personality and interests in the first place, but I'd say that any of the three could be good places to start.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Personally , I picked up C as my first language when I was 12 , so I know that other people can do it , too -- depending on how dedicated he is.Another thought is PERL ; I have a friend from middle school that learned PERL as his first language when he was in 8th grade and continued to use it until college , when he switched to python.Finally , PHP could be quite nice -- simple , C-style syntax with capabilities out the wazoo , plus it allows him to use either structured or OO style programming and transition between the two , depending on where he starts .
Another nice thing about PHP is the ability to make things happen quickly .
In other programming languages , if a person wants to set up a GUI , there 's ( generally ) a lot of work involved .
With PHP , it 's very simple ( and we all know that kids like purdy graficks ) .Ultimately , as others have said , it depends on your brother 's personality and interests in the first place , but I 'd say that any of the three could be good places to start .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Personally, I picked up C as my first language when I was 12, so I know that other people can do it, too -- depending on how dedicated he is.Another thought is PERL; I have a friend from middle school that learned PERL as his first language when he was in 8th grade and continued to use it until college, when he switched to python.Finally, PHP could be quite nice -- simple, C-style syntax with capabilities out the wazoo, plus it allows him to use either structured or OO style programming and transition between the two, depending on where he starts.
Another nice thing about PHP is the ability to make things happen quickly.
In other programming languages, if a person wants to set up a GUI, there's (generally) a lot of work involved.
With PHP, it's very simple (and we all know that kids like purdy graficks).Ultimately, as others have said, it depends on your brother's personality and interests in the first place, but I'd say that any of the three could be good places to start.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566188</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>shentino</author>
	<datestamp>1261913760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think it's a mistake to call it computer science, when it really is more of an art.</p><p>Software engineering is more apt in that it at least captures the essence of both.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think it 's a mistake to call it computer science , when it really is more of an art.Software engineering is more apt in that it at least captures the essence of both .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think it's a mistake to call it computer science, when it really is more of an art.Software engineering is more apt in that it at least captures the essence of both.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565316</id>
	<title>GPL LiveDVD/USB Distro + NDS Homebrew</title>
	<author>jdogalt</author>
	<datestamp>1261906620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My solution to this problem that I've been working on for years, but still has further to go is LiveDVD linux distribution, that includes all the source code to rebuild itself (the iso image) from scratch.  Add to that, a cool interaction with some NDS homebrew, including all the source and compilers needed to modify that.  Currently what I have is a fedora derived LiveDVD/USB that boots a PC into an electric guitar-f/x preamp, which when combined with speakers and a guitar, lets you easily start jamming with Rakarrack.  For the NDS homebrew side, I have an application that lets the NDS talk via wifi to control Rakarrack in realtime.  A TouchScreenWhammyPad implementation.</p><p>For the long term goal to achieve what you described, I intend to add more simple GPL homebrew games, and a book walking a kid through the process of tweaking some little aspects of the existing games, maybe just text strings.  That would get them familiar with the development process.  Then maybe a complete tutorial implementing tic-tac-toe or such (from good overcommented template code of course).</p><p>If you want to check out what I have so far-</p><p><a href="http://gzyx.org/" title="gzyx.org">http://gzyx.org/</a> [gzyx.org]</p><p>(developer build of new f11 based version will upload today, and an f12 version should be coming pretty soon)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My solution to this problem that I 've been working on for years , but still has further to go is LiveDVD linux distribution , that includes all the source code to rebuild itself ( the iso image ) from scratch .
Add to that , a cool interaction with some NDS homebrew , including all the source and compilers needed to modify that .
Currently what I have is a fedora derived LiveDVD/USB that boots a PC into an electric guitar-f/x preamp , which when combined with speakers and a guitar , lets you easily start jamming with Rakarrack .
For the NDS homebrew side , I have an application that lets the NDS talk via wifi to control Rakarrack in realtime .
A TouchScreenWhammyPad implementation.For the long term goal to achieve what you described , I intend to add more simple GPL homebrew games , and a book walking a kid through the process of tweaking some little aspects of the existing games , maybe just text strings .
That would get them familiar with the development process .
Then maybe a complete tutorial implementing tic-tac-toe or such ( from good overcommented template code of course ) .If you want to check out what I have so far-http : //gzyx.org/ [ gzyx.org ] ( developer build of new f11 based version will upload today , and an f12 version should be coming pretty soon )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My solution to this problem that I've been working on for years, but still has further to go is LiveDVD linux distribution, that includes all the source code to rebuild itself (the iso image) from scratch.
Add to that, a cool interaction with some NDS homebrew, including all the source and compilers needed to modify that.
Currently what I have is a fedora derived LiveDVD/USB that boots a PC into an electric guitar-f/x preamp, which when combined with speakers and a guitar, lets you easily start jamming with Rakarrack.
For the NDS homebrew side, I have an application that lets the NDS talk via wifi to control Rakarrack in realtime.
A TouchScreenWhammyPad implementation.For the long term goal to achieve what you described, I intend to add more simple GPL homebrew games, and a book walking a kid through the process of tweaking some little aspects of the existing games, maybe just text strings.
That would get them familiar with the development process.
Then maybe a complete tutorial implementing tic-tac-toe or such (from good overcommented template code of course).If you want to check out what I have so far-http://gzyx.org/ [gzyx.org](developer build of new f11 based version will upload today, and an f12 version should be coming pretty soon)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565414</id>
	<title>Book for beginners</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261907400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's this book called "Hello World!: Computer Programming for Kids and Other Beginners": http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1933988495/ref=ord\_cart\_shr?\_encoding=UTF8&amp;m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&amp;v=glance</p><p>I didn't actually read it (it's sitting on my shopping cart for a long time), but it's got good reviews, if only a few.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's this book called " Hello World !
: Computer Programming for Kids and Other Beginners " : http : //www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1933988495/ref = ord \ _cart \ _shr ? \ _encoding = UTF8&amp;m = ATVPDKIKX0DER&amp;v = glanceI did n't actually read it ( it 's sitting on my shopping cart for a long time ) , but it 's got good reviews , if only a few .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's this book called "Hello World!
: Computer Programming for Kids and Other Beginners": http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1933988495/ref=ord\_cart\_shr?\_encoding=UTF8&amp;m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&amp;v=glanceI didn't actually read it (it's sitting on my shopping cart for a long time), but it's got good reviews, if only a few.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566138</id>
	<title>MikeOS</title>
	<author>MattBD</author>
	<datestamp>1261913340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Really it depends what he wants to do - if he's interested in programming for the web, for instance, then something like PHP might be a better choice, or if he wants to write games for Windows and the XBox 360, maybe C# and XNA. But in general I think Python is your best bet. It's pretty easy to get your head round, the syntax is nice and clear, it can do pretty much anything he's likely to want, although it may not be the fastest language around. It's easy to get into game programming using PyGame, or GUI programming using Tkinter, wxPython or another GUI toolkit, or web development using Django.

However, I will also suggest something slightly off the wall. You might want to check out MikeOS (http://mikeos.berlios.de/), which is a simple x86 operating system written in assembly. It now incorporates a simple BASIC interpreter, and can boot from a floppy drive, USB key or CD-R so it could easily be used alongside Windows, or can be run in a virtual machine if you'd prefer. Applications can be written in BASIC or assembly.

Because MikeOS is so simple, writing programs for it should be similarly simple, and the experience is not entirely dissimilar to on old 8-bit computers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Really it depends what he wants to do - if he 's interested in programming for the web , for instance , then something like PHP might be a better choice , or if he wants to write games for Windows and the XBox 360 , maybe C # and XNA .
But in general I think Python is your best bet .
It 's pretty easy to get your head round , the syntax is nice and clear , it can do pretty much anything he 's likely to want , although it may not be the fastest language around .
It 's easy to get into game programming using PyGame , or GUI programming using Tkinter , wxPython or another GUI toolkit , or web development using Django .
However , I will also suggest something slightly off the wall .
You might want to check out MikeOS ( http : //mikeos.berlios.de/ ) , which is a simple x86 operating system written in assembly .
It now incorporates a simple BASIC interpreter , and can boot from a floppy drive , USB key or CD-R so it could easily be used alongside Windows , or can be run in a virtual machine if you 'd prefer .
Applications can be written in BASIC or assembly .
Because MikeOS is so simple , writing programs for it should be similarly simple , and the experience is not entirely dissimilar to on old 8-bit computers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Really it depends what he wants to do - if he's interested in programming for the web, for instance, then something like PHP might be a better choice, or if he wants to write games for Windows and the XBox 360, maybe C# and XNA.
But in general I think Python is your best bet.
It's pretty easy to get your head round, the syntax is nice and clear, it can do pretty much anything he's likely to want, although it may not be the fastest language around.
It's easy to get into game programming using PyGame, or GUI programming using Tkinter, wxPython or another GUI toolkit, or web development using Django.
However, I will also suggest something slightly off the wall.
You might want to check out MikeOS (http://mikeos.berlios.de/), which is a simple x86 operating system written in assembly.
It now incorporates a simple BASIC interpreter, and can boot from a floppy drive, USB key or CD-R so it could easily be used alongside Windows, or can be run in a virtual machine if you'd prefer.
Applications can be written in BASIC or assembly.
Because MikeOS is so simple, writing programs for it should be similarly simple, and the experience is not entirely dissimilar to on old 8-bit computers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30573434</id>
	<title>Try Scratch</title>
	<author>sputnik\_b</author>
	<datestamp>1262026860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's visual, promotes imagination, and has a fantastic online community where your kid can share his project, get feedback, ask for advice, etc.

<a href="http://scratch.mit.edu/" title="mit.edu" rel="nofollow">http://scratch.mit.edu/</a> [mit.edu]

great article from ACM to whet your appetite:
<a href="http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2009/11/48421-scratch-programming-for-all/fulltext" title="acm.org" rel="nofollow">http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2009/11/48421-scratch-programming-for-all/fulltext</a> [acm.org]

good luck!</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's visual , promotes imagination , and has a fantastic online community where your kid can share his project , get feedback , ask for advice , etc .
http : //scratch.mit.edu/ [ mit.edu ] great article from ACM to whet your appetite : http : //cacm.acm.org/magazines/2009/11/48421-scratch-programming-for-all/fulltext [ acm.org ] good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's visual, promotes imagination, and has a fantastic online community where your kid can share his project, get feedback, ask for advice, etc.
http://scratch.mit.edu/ [mit.edu]

great article from ACM to whet your appetite:
http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2009/11/48421-scratch-programming-for-all/fulltext [acm.org]

good luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567554</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>nabsltd</author>
	<datestamp>1261926000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You didn't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all. Because if he isn't, he will never be. I tried to show programming for my little brother too, but he just couldn't be interested. It's something you need to be interested at, and if you are, you've probably picked it up yourself at that age. But maybe it's worth giving it a try at least, but don't feel bad if he doesn't get interested in it.</p><p>I started programming with Quick Basic. I don't remember exactly how I got there</p></div><p>For most of us older people, it was much easier to "get interested" in programming, since many games/utilities/whatever came in the form of source code in a magazine that you had to type into the machine.</p><p>After that, it was a small step to change the existing code (to add features, fix a bug, or whatever), and then on to creating your own programs from scratch.  Today, when programs generally only arrive in executable format, it's tougher to make the transition.</p><p>So, maybe the best place to start is with a game that can be modded easily, but isn't just a point-and-click to make the change.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You did n't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all .
Because if he is n't , he will never be .
I tried to show programming for my little brother too , but he just could n't be interested .
It 's something you need to be interested at , and if you are , you 've probably picked it up yourself at that age .
But maybe it 's worth giving it a try at least , but do n't feel bad if he does n't get interested in it.I started programming with Quick Basic .
I do n't remember exactly how I got thereFor most of us older people , it was much easier to " get interested " in programming , since many games/utilities/whatever came in the form of source code in a magazine that you had to type into the machine.After that , it was a small step to change the existing code ( to add features , fix a bug , or whatever ) , and then on to creating your own programs from scratch .
Today , when programs generally only arrive in executable format , it 's tougher to make the transition.So , maybe the best place to start is with a game that can be modded easily , but is n't just a point-and-click to make the change .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You didn't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all.
Because if he isn't, he will never be.
I tried to show programming for my little brother too, but he just couldn't be interested.
It's something you need to be interested at, and if you are, you've probably picked it up yourself at that age.
But maybe it's worth giving it a try at least, but don't feel bad if he doesn't get interested in it.I started programming with Quick Basic.
I don't remember exactly how I got thereFor most of us older people, it was much easier to "get interested" in programming, since many games/utilities/whatever came in the form of source code in a magazine that you had to type into the machine.After that, it was a small step to change the existing code (to add features, fix a bug, or whatever), and then on to creating your own programs from scratch.
Today, when programs generally only arrive in executable format, it's tougher to make the transition.So, maybe the best place to start is with a game that can be modded easily, but isn't just a point-and-click to make the change.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565916</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>anorlunda</author>
	<datestamp>1261911600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>sopssa hit the nail on the head.   Before teaching the boy *how* to program you need to pique his interest and motivate him.</p><p>I have experience teaching introductory experience to adults.  I always started with Visual Basic.  In a single 2 hour session I taught them how to make a primitive Pong game that really worked. That gave the students enlightment that they could create something real and substantial.  It built self confidence.</p><p>VB was the best choice for the session.  It allowed the students to succeed at something fun *before* they got discouraged or bored.</p><p>A few of the students decided to go further in study of programming.  For them, the next course could worry about the suitable learning language.</p><p>The rest of the students didn't go the next step.  Still, they enjoyed the experience and gained a little understanding of what programmers do.  What more could a teacher hope for?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>sopssa hit the nail on the head .
Before teaching the boy * how * to program you need to pique his interest and motivate him.I have experience teaching introductory experience to adults .
I always started with Visual Basic .
In a single 2 hour session I taught them how to make a primitive Pong game that really worked .
That gave the students enlightment that they could create something real and substantial .
It built self confidence.VB was the best choice for the session .
It allowed the students to succeed at something fun * before * they got discouraged or bored.A few of the students decided to go further in study of programming .
For them , the next course could worry about the suitable learning language.The rest of the students did n't go the next step .
Still , they enjoyed the experience and gained a little understanding of what programmers do .
What more could a teacher hope for ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>sopssa hit the nail on the head.
Before teaching the boy *how* to program you need to pique his interest and motivate him.I have experience teaching introductory experience to adults.
I always started with Visual Basic.
In a single 2 hour session I taught them how to make a primitive Pong game that really worked.
That gave the students enlightment that they could create something real and substantial.
It built self confidence.VB was the best choice for the session.
It allowed the students to succeed at something fun *before* they got discouraged or bored.A few of the students decided to go further in study of programming.
For them, the next course could worry about the suitable learning language.The rest of the students didn't go the next step.
Still, they enjoyed the experience and gained a little understanding of what programmers do.
What more could a teacher hope for?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30629518</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1230920880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>An introduction to programming for any(one) child will improve their thinking capability. I intend to convince my freshman daughter to try python just to widen her range of problem solving ability. Programming experience not only provides another way of looking at a situation but also improves mathmatics intuition.</p><p>Of the two boys before her, the second son could not comprehend variables at the same age the first son was rushing through Learn To Program Basic(TM). The first son has a degree in film production and is finishing a degree in philosophy. The second son is majoring in computer science on a scholarship.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>An introduction to programming for any ( one ) child will improve their thinking capability .
I intend to convince my freshman daughter to try python just to widen her range of problem solving ability .
Programming experience not only provides another way of looking at a situation but also improves mathmatics intuition.Of the two boys before her , the second son could not comprehend variables at the same age the first son was rushing through Learn To Program Basic ( TM ) .
The first son has a degree in film production and is finishing a degree in philosophy .
The second son is majoring in computer science on a scholarship .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An introduction to programming for any(one) child will improve their thinking capability.
I intend to convince my freshman daughter to try python just to widen her range of problem solving ability.
Programming experience not only provides another way of looking at a situation but also improves mathmatics intuition.Of the two boys before her, the second son could not comprehend variables at the same age the first son was rushing through Learn To Program Basic(TM).
The first son has a degree in film production and is finishing a degree in philosophy.
The second son is majoring in computer science on a scholarship.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30573298</id>
	<title>Scratch from MIT</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262026080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>MIT makes a programming environment called Scratch that is designed to introduce kids to programming (http://scratch.mit.edu/). There are a few things Iike about scratch as an introduction to programming:</p><p>1. First scratch is designed around 2-D graphics (game style) programming. You start with a background that you can add sprites (characters) to. Each of the characters comes with a set of built in commands. You can build you own scripts for each character. It is easy to get started quickly in scratch and see the results. More satisfying in my opinion than "hello world" or text based programs.</p><p>2. In scratch you build programs from graphical building blocks which you drag onto a script window. For example, a loop command looks like a c clamp into which you can drag other commands. Syntactic errors are not possible, so the focus becomes programming structure. I think there is an advantage to learning how organize commands to do what you want, and learning the value of different programming structures before having to deal with finding syntactic errors, since these can be quite frustrating when you are just starting.</p><p>3. Several important programming constructs are available such as if statements and loops. Generating and listening for event is supported. You can write fairly sophisticated programs with Scratch.</p><p>I think Scratch is a good way to help kids feel successful quickly, and has interesting things to keep their attention. It also has enough 'programming structure' to teach them several useful programming techniques that carry to many languages. Another option is the programming environment 'alice' (http://www.alice.org/). This is a 3-D graphical environment for programming. I found this to be more complex to teach my kids. Alice also uses graphical drag and drop programming. The characters (objects) in alice 2.0 have less high level functionality built in that scratch and it required a lot more work to get a simple interesting programming running. There is a version called 'story telling alice' that you can download that has more built in functionality for the characters. I liked this much better than alice 2.0, but it is still harder to teach than scratch. I had to give up on story telling alice because of stability problem on my vista machine. Alice 3.0 is under development, and adds more interesting behavior to several characters. However, last I checked it was in alpha stage and also had various stability issues. Note that you can download characters for alice 2.0 that have more functionality from the wiki (ones that people have contributed).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>MIT makes a programming environment called Scratch that is designed to introduce kids to programming ( http : //scratch.mit.edu/ ) .
There are a few things Iike about scratch as an introduction to programming : 1 .
First scratch is designed around 2-D graphics ( game style ) programming .
You start with a background that you can add sprites ( characters ) to .
Each of the characters comes with a set of built in commands .
You can build you own scripts for each character .
It is easy to get started quickly in scratch and see the results .
More satisfying in my opinion than " hello world " or text based programs.2 .
In scratch you build programs from graphical building blocks which you drag onto a script window .
For example , a loop command looks like a c clamp into which you can drag other commands .
Syntactic errors are not possible , so the focus becomes programming structure .
I think there is an advantage to learning how organize commands to do what you want , and learning the value of different programming structures before having to deal with finding syntactic errors , since these can be quite frustrating when you are just starting.3 .
Several important programming constructs are available such as if statements and loops .
Generating and listening for event is supported .
You can write fairly sophisticated programs with Scratch.I think Scratch is a good way to help kids feel successful quickly , and has interesting things to keep their attention .
It also has enough 'programming structure ' to teach them several useful programming techniques that carry to many languages .
Another option is the programming environment 'alice ' ( http : //www.alice.org/ ) .
This is a 3-D graphical environment for programming .
I found this to be more complex to teach my kids .
Alice also uses graphical drag and drop programming .
The characters ( objects ) in alice 2.0 have less high level functionality built in that scratch and it required a lot more work to get a simple interesting programming running .
There is a version called 'story telling alice ' that you can download that has more built in functionality for the characters .
I liked this much better than alice 2.0 , but it is still harder to teach than scratch .
I had to give up on story telling alice because of stability problem on my vista machine .
Alice 3.0 is under development , and adds more interesting behavior to several characters .
However , last I checked it was in alpha stage and also had various stability issues .
Note that you can download characters for alice 2.0 that have more functionality from the wiki ( ones that people have contributed ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>MIT makes a programming environment called Scratch that is designed to introduce kids to programming (http://scratch.mit.edu/).
There are a few things Iike about scratch as an introduction to programming:1.
First scratch is designed around 2-D graphics (game style) programming.
You start with a background that you can add sprites (characters) to.
Each of the characters comes with a set of built in commands.
You can build you own scripts for each character.
It is easy to get started quickly in scratch and see the results.
More satisfying in my opinion than "hello world" or text based programs.2.
In scratch you build programs from graphical building blocks which you drag onto a script window.
For example, a loop command looks like a c clamp into which you can drag other commands.
Syntactic errors are not possible, so the focus becomes programming structure.
I think there is an advantage to learning how organize commands to do what you want, and learning the value of different programming structures before having to deal with finding syntactic errors, since these can be quite frustrating when you are just starting.3.
Several important programming constructs are available such as if statements and loops.
Generating and listening for event is supported.
You can write fairly sophisticated programs with Scratch.I think Scratch is a good way to help kids feel successful quickly, and has interesting things to keep their attention.
It also has enough 'programming structure' to teach them several useful programming techniques that carry to many languages.
Another option is the programming environment 'alice' (http://www.alice.org/).
This is a 3-D graphical environment for programming.
I found this to be more complex to teach my kids.
Alice also uses graphical drag and drop programming.
The characters (objects) in alice 2.0 have less high level functionality built in that scratch and it required a lot more work to get a simple interesting programming running.
There is a version called 'story telling alice' that you can download that has more built in functionality for the characters.
I liked this much better than alice 2.0, but it is still harder to teach than scratch.
I had to give up on story telling alice because of stability problem on my vista machine.
Alice 3.0 is under development, and adds more interesting behavior to several characters.
However, last I checked it was in alpha stage and also had various stability issues.
Note that you can download characters for alice 2.0 that have more functionality from the wiki (ones that people have contributed).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566170</id>
	<title>Let him tell you</title>
	<author>houghi</author>
	<datestamp>1261913640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't ask<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. Ask him. What does he want to do. Does he has already looked at him and let him know that you are willing to help.</p><p>Most likely he will try to figure it out himself.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't ask / .
Ask him .
What does he want to do .
Does he has already looked at him and let him know that you are willing to help.Most likely he will try to figure it out himself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't ask /.
Ask him.
What does he want to do.
Does he has already looked at him and let him know that you are willing to help.Most likely he will try to figure it out himself.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565128</id>
	<title>Re:Python</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261905480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Get LabVIEW<br>www.ni.com<br>It's used alot for test engineering. Very useful programming language can do a lot of things with it.  It;s a GUI programming interface, easily to learn. Like all programming languages hard to master.<br>Get a lego mindsotrm kit.  It has it a GUI interface.  You can get labview kit to program your mindstorm too.<br>Also Matlab is very good too. It like C, but more engineering focus.  You can do alot of cool educational thing with it  like slowing down sounds and stuff and do FFT on the data.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Get LabVIEWwww.ni.comIt 's used alot for test engineering .
Very useful programming language can do a lot of things with it .
It ; s a GUI programming interface , easily to learn .
Like all programming languages hard to master.Get a lego mindsotrm kit .
It has it a GUI interface .
You can get labview kit to program your mindstorm too.Also Matlab is very good too .
It like C , but more engineering focus .
You can do alot of cool educational thing with it like slowing down sounds and stuff and do FFT on the data .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get LabVIEWwww.ni.comIt's used alot for test engineering.
Very useful programming language can do a lot of things with it.
It;s a GUI programming interface, easily to learn.
Like all programming languages hard to master.Get a lego mindsotrm kit.
It has it a GUI interface.
You can get labview kit to program your mindstorm too.Also Matlab is very good too.
It like C, but more engineering focus.
You can do alot of cool educational thing with it  like slowing down sounds and stuff and do FFT on the data.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566392</id>
	<title>Idiot</title>
	<author>omb</author>
	<datestamp>1261915740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There is absolutely nothing in C that makes for buffer overflows, in C managing your data is YOUR business.<br><br>When I write user-land code I have a very small library which provides the basic tools to write safe app code and I get 1\% of the bugs I would in either C++ or java, and with dmalloc and valgrind I cam prove it. In reasonable time. If you can not write in C you can not program.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is absolutely nothing in C that makes for buffer overflows , in C managing your data is YOUR business.When I write user-land code I have a very small library which provides the basic tools to write safe app code and I get 1 \ % of the bugs I would in either C + + or java , and with dmalloc and valgrind I cam prove it .
In reasonable time .
If you can not write in C you can not program .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is absolutely nothing in C that makes for buffer overflows, in C managing your data is YOUR business.When I write user-land code I have a very small library which provides the basic tools to write safe app code and I get 1\% of the bugs I would in either C++ or java, and with dmalloc and valgrind I cam prove it.
In reasonable time.
If you can not write in C you can not program.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565096</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567078</id>
	<title>At age 12, I taught myself AppleScript.</title>
	<author>nathanator11</author>
	<datestamp>1261921500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I was 12, I taught myself AppleScript from this Wrox book: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-AppleScript-Programmer-Stephen-Kochan/dp/0764574000/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1261960716&amp;sr=8-1" title="amazon.com" rel="nofollow"> <em>Beginning AppleScript</em><nobr> <wbr></nobr></a> [amazon.com].<br>
This is a great language because it's so much like English. You can guess a command and get it right. <br>
Also, that was a good book because it teaches you something and then lets you test and explore it using examples. And the book is still a great referecne.<br>
AppleScrpt is a good, easy way to become familiar with programming concepts. And it's got built-in tools for user interface work, so that part is easy.<br>
Also, there's a lot of good help on the Web for AppleScript.<br> <br>
Good luck!
-Nathan</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was 12 , I taught myself AppleScript from this Wrox book : Beginning AppleScript [ amazon.com ] .
This is a great language because it 's so much like English .
You can guess a command and get it right .
Also , that was a good book because it teaches you something and then lets you test and explore it using examples .
And the book is still a great referecne .
AppleScrpt is a good , easy way to become familiar with programming concepts .
And it 's got built-in tools for user interface work , so that part is easy .
Also , there 's a lot of good help on the Web for AppleScript .
Good luck !
-Nathan</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was 12, I taught myself AppleScript from this Wrox book:  Beginning AppleScript  [amazon.com].
This is a great language because it's so much like English.
You can guess a command and get it right.
Also, that was a good book because it teaches you something and then lets you test and explore it using examples.
And the book is still a great referecne.
AppleScrpt is a good, easy way to become familiar with programming concepts.
And it's got built-in tools for user interface work, so that part is easy.
Also, there's a lot of good help on the Web for AppleScript.
Good luck!
-Nathan</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30578798</id>
	<title>If he is indeed interested in learning programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262017620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just teach him QBasic, it is nice, easy and fun language, it is straight with graphic and sound, and it doesn't need to compile to run programs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just teach him QBasic , it is nice , easy and fun language , it is straight with graphic and sound , and it does n't need to compile to run programs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just teach him QBasic, it is nice, easy and fun language, it is straight with graphic and sound, and it doesn't need to compile to run programs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569568</id>
	<title>Re:Cold, hard X86 Assembly.</title>
	<author>geekgirlandrea</author>
	<datestamp>1262001360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>*sigh*</p><p>x86 is for useless twits who need to do things like <tt>rep stosb</tt> and can't handle delay slots.  Anyone who can't learn MIPS by age 13 should be shot.  It's for their own good.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>* sigh * x86 is for useless twits who need to do things like rep stosb and ca n't handle delay slots .
Anyone who ca n't learn MIPS by age 13 should be shot .
It 's for their own good .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>*sigh*x86 is for useless twits who need to do things like rep stosb and can't handle delay slots.
Anyone who can't learn MIPS by age 13 should be shot.
It's for their own good.
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564998</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571826</id>
	<title>awk</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262019660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>awk is pre-installed on unix boxen, has all the standard loops and operators , is easy to use.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>awk is pre-installed on unix boxen , has all the standard loops and operators , is easy to use .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>awk is pre-installed on unix boxen, has all the standard loops and operators , is easy to use.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565560</id>
	<title>C++ worked for me</title>
	<author>thepieman</author>
	<datestamp>1261908600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am a computer science junior at RPI, and they start with C++ there. This way he has something that people actually use. A lot of the languages are quite similar as far as basic syntax, so it doesn't really matter which you start with, and C++ allows for the use of more complex programs to be written down the line.

I would also like to mention that 12 years old is not to early to start, but even if they are not interested at that age, it doesn't mean they never will be. I have a few Mathematics major friends who have become interested in programming at the age of 19.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am a computer science junior at RPI , and they start with C + + there .
This way he has something that people actually use .
A lot of the languages are quite similar as far as basic syntax , so it does n't really matter which you start with , and C + + allows for the use of more complex programs to be written down the line .
I would also like to mention that 12 years old is not to early to start , but even if they are not interested at that age , it does n't mean they never will be .
I have a few Mathematics major friends who have become interested in programming at the age of 19 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am a computer science junior at RPI, and they start with C++ there.
This way he has something that people actually use.
A lot of the languages are quite similar as far as basic syntax, so it doesn't really matter which you start with, and C++ allows for the use of more complex programs to be written down the line.
I would also like to mention that 12 years old is not to early to start, but even if they are not interested at that age, it doesn't mean they never will be.
I have a few Mathematics major friends who have become interested in programming at the age of 19.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566504</id>
	<title>a 12 yr old</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261916700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>to a certain extent the same way you would teach an adult, except remember the younger they are they are the easier it is for them to learn and the steeper the learning curve they can take. if your family ends up with another baby have someone in the family read serious programming and other books to them as lullabies and have foreign language tapes and other audio learning material playing at a quiet but discernible volume 24/7 around their crib, heck get rid of all your tv's and have that stuff playing 24/7 in your house and you'll soon start to notice your family's brain cells working on something besides advertising jingles and celebrity stalking "news" reports.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>to a certain extent the same way you would teach an adult , except remember the younger they are they are the easier it is for them to learn and the steeper the learning curve they can take .
if your family ends up with another baby have someone in the family read serious programming and other books to them as lullabies and have foreign language tapes and other audio learning material playing at a quiet but discernible volume 24/7 around their crib , heck get rid of all your tv 's and have that stuff playing 24/7 in your house and you 'll soon start to notice your family 's brain cells working on something besides advertising jingles and celebrity stalking " news " reports .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>to a certain extent the same way you would teach an adult, except remember the younger they are they are the easier it is for them to learn and the steeper the learning curve they can take.
if your family ends up with another baby have someone in the family read serious programming and other books to them as lullabies and have foreign language tapes and other audio learning material playing at a quiet but discernible volume 24/7 around their crib, heck get rid of all your tv's and have that stuff playing 24/7 in your house and you'll soon start to notice your family's brain cells working on something besides advertising jingles and celebrity stalking "news" reports.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565406</id>
	<title>Re:Python</title>
	<author>bcrowell</author>
	<datestamp>1261907340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>But if you are just trying to build interest, rather than solve a problem, I suggest javascript as you can build on an existing familiarity with web pages to interactive slide shows, quiz games, etc.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
This seems to me like a good idea in theory, but a poor one in practice. I like javascript as a language, and have written a couple of reasonably nontrivial apps in it. However, a beginner is going to need a book that's designed to teach programming using a particular language. I don't think there is an appropriate book of that kind for js. The O'Reilly rhino book (Flanagan) is basically the only js book on the market that's any good. The rest are pretty much all crappy things aimed at teaching web designers to do little browser tricks; you could do everything that's in one of those books, and still never develop a clue about programming.
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>But if you are just trying to build interest , rather than solve a problem , I suggest javascript as you can build on an existing familiarity with web pages to interactive slide shows , quiz games , etc .
This seems to me like a good idea in theory , but a poor one in practice .
I like javascript as a language , and have written a couple of reasonably nontrivial apps in it .
However , a beginner is going to need a book that 's designed to teach programming using a particular language .
I do n't think there is an appropriate book of that kind for js .
The O'Reilly rhino book ( Flanagan ) is basically the only js book on the market that 's any good .
The rest are pretty much all crappy things aimed at teaching web designers to do little browser tricks ; you could do everything that 's in one of those books , and still never develop a clue about programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But if you are just trying to build interest, rather than solve a problem, I suggest javascript as you can build on an existing familiarity with web pages to interactive slide shows, quiz games, etc.
This seems to me like a good idea in theory, but a poor one in practice.
I like javascript as a language, and have written a couple of reasonably nontrivial apps in it.
However, a beginner is going to need a book that's designed to teach programming using a particular language.
I don't think there is an appropriate book of that kind for js.
The O'Reilly rhino book (Flanagan) is basically the only js book on the market that's any good.
The rest are pretty much all crappy things aimed at teaching web designers to do little browser tricks; you could do everything that's in one of those books, and still never develop a clue about programming.

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565006</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565012</id>
	<title>Game Maker</title>
	<author>raving griff</author>
	<datestamp>1261904880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Depending on your kid's preferences, there is a good chance that he likes to make games.  I find that Game Maker can be a great starting off point for a young programmer--it has a simple, graphical interface with a simple programming UI that, while drag and drop, still programming logic and structure.  Then have him graduate to using GML, which is the programming language included with Game Maker.  Its syntax is very similar to C and C++ and, at least for me, it proved to be an excellent introduction to programming.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Depending on your kid 's preferences , there is a good chance that he likes to make games .
I find that Game Maker can be a great starting off point for a young programmer--it has a simple , graphical interface with a simple programming UI that , while drag and drop , still programming logic and structure .
Then have him graduate to using GML , which is the programming language included with Game Maker .
Its syntax is very similar to C and C + + and , at least for me , it proved to be an excellent introduction to programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Depending on your kid's preferences, there is a good chance that he likes to make games.
I find that Game Maker can be a great starting off point for a young programmer--it has a simple, graphical interface with a simple programming UI that, while drag and drop, still programming logic and structure.
Then have him graduate to using GML, which is the programming language included with Game Maker.
Its syntax is very similar to C and C++ and, at least for me, it proved to be an excellent introduction to programming.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30575222</id>
	<title>Why not PHP?  Srsly!</title>
	<author>Bobb Sledd</author>
	<datestamp>1261992480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why doesn't anyone mention PHP?</p><p>OK, now that you've stopped laughing...</p><p>Really!  With PHP you can kill two birds with one stone:  You can teach HTML so you can be productive right away, and you can just embed some small PHP in the page wherever you feel like it... rather than programming a page to spit out HTML.</p><p>Now you want to make it do more complex stuff?  Just add more tags into a working project.  Now you have a powerful language that you can branch out and learn how to connect to a database, for example -- way beyond simple scripting stuff.  Database is where its at!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why does n't anyone mention PHP ? OK , now that you 've stopped laughing...Really !
With PHP you can kill two birds with one stone : You can teach HTML so you can be productive right away , and you can just embed some small PHP in the page wherever you feel like it... rather than programming a page to spit out HTML.Now you want to make it do more complex stuff ?
Just add more tags into a working project .
Now you have a powerful language that you can branch out and learn how to connect to a database , for example -- way beyond simple scripting stuff .
Database is where its at !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why doesn't anyone mention PHP?OK, now that you've stopped laughing...Really!
With PHP you can kill two birds with one stone:  You can teach HTML so you can be productive right away, and you can just embed some small PHP in the page wherever you feel like it... rather than programming a page to spit out HTML.Now you want to make it do more complex stuff?
Just add more tags into a working project.
Now you have a powerful language that you can branch out and learn how to connect to a database, for example -- way beyond simple scripting stuff.
Database is where its at!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566048</id>
	<title>Re:javascript</title>
	<author>Eravnrekaree</author>
	<datestamp>1261912500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I second javascript and HTML. Javascript is a clean, simple language, dynamic typed without all of that extra memory management and other stuff to worry about as on C. Its high level and allows for simple code, and instant results without all of the extra set up and initialisation which can confuse new users. Stay away from Java, C and C++ for goodness sake.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I second javascript and HTML .
Javascript is a clean , simple language , dynamic typed without all of that extra memory management and other stuff to worry about as on C. Its high level and allows for simple code , and instant results without all of the extra set up and initialisation which can confuse new users .
Stay away from Java , C and C + + for goodness sake .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I second javascript and HTML.
Javascript is a clean, simple language, dynamic typed without all of that extra memory management and other stuff to worry about as on C. Its high level and allows for simple code, and instant results without all of the extra set up and initialisation which can confuse new users.
Stay away from Java, C and C++ for goodness sake.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564862</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30643406</id>
	<title>Try scratch programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1231095480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>scratch programming (http://scratch.mit.edu/)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>scratch programming ( http : //scratch.mit.edu/ )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>scratch programming (http://scratch.mit.edu/)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566292</id>
	<title>Re:HTML and Javascript</title>
	<author>Pawnn</author>
	<datestamp>1261914660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This reminds me of a time in college when a guy who was heavy into assembler and Basic asked me "So how do I plot a pixel in HTML?"  I paused to take in his question, then I opened Paint, drew a dot, then made an HTML page with the image in it.  <br>
<br>
He responded "Whoa!  That's way too much overhead!"<br>
<br>
I replied, "No, check this out."  I opened the image file with the dot and made a smiley.  Then, I refreshed the page.  He was elated.  "No vector graphics needed?!  This is awesome!"<br>
<br>
I tell this story to preface the statement that I know from first-hand experience that a noobie programmer can make Pong in javascript/html in less than 100 lines of code with minimal difficulty compared to other languages.  That being said, QBasic was actually MY first language...</htmltext>
<tokenext>This reminds me of a time in college when a guy who was heavy into assembler and Basic asked me " So how do I plot a pixel in HTML ?
" I paused to take in his question , then I opened Paint , drew a dot , then made an HTML page with the image in it .
He responded " Whoa !
That 's way too much overhead !
" I replied , " No , check this out .
" I opened the image file with the dot and made a smiley .
Then , I refreshed the page .
He was elated .
" No vector graphics needed ? !
This is awesome !
" I tell this story to preface the statement that I know from first-hand experience that a noobie programmer can make Pong in javascript/html in less than 100 lines of code with minimal difficulty compared to other languages .
That being said , QBasic was actually MY first language.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This reminds me of a time in college when a guy who was heavy into assembler and Basic asked me "So how do I plot a pixel in HTML?
"  I paused to take in his question, then I opened Paint, drew a dot, then made an HTML page with the image in it.
He responded "Whoa!
That's way too much overhead!
"

I replied, "No, check this out.
"  I opened the image file with the dot and made a smiley.
Then, I refreshed the page.
He was elated.
"No vector graphics needed?!
This is awesome!
"

I tell this story to preface the statement that I know from first-hand experience that a noobie programmer can make Pong in javascript/html in less than 100 lines of code with minimal difficulty compared to other languages.
That being said, QBasic was actually MY first language...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566004</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566162</id>
	<title>Try Scalable Game Design</title>
	<author>the agent man</author>
	<datestamp>1261913580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Here is a curriculum used in schools to get middle school kids learn about computer science/computational thinking through game design:
<a href="http://scalablegamedesign.cs.colorado.edu/" title="colorado.edu" rel="nofollow">http://scalablegamedesign.cs.colorado.edu/</a> [colorado.edu]

start with simple games like Frogger and make it all the way to sophisticated ones like The Sims</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here is a curriculum used in schools to get middle school kids learn about computer science/computational thinking through game design : http : //scalablegamedesign.cs.colorado.edu/ [ colorado.edu ] start with simple games like Frogger and make it all the way to sophisticated ones like The Sims</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here is a curriculum used in schools to get middle school kids learn about computer science/computational thinking through game design:
http://scalablegamedesign.cs.colorado.edu/ [colorado.edu]

start with simple games like Frogger and make it all the way to sophisticated ones like The Sims</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568314</id>
	<title>Re:Lego Mindstorms</title>
	<author>RightwingNutjob</author>
	<datestamp>1261935180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There used to be a C compiler for the mindstorms bricks. A few years ago (2004) it went by the name of NQC (not-quite-C).</htmltext>
<tokenext>There used to be a C compiler for the mindstorms bricks .
A few years ago ( 2004 ) it went by the name of NQC ( not-quite-C ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There used to be a C compiler for the mindstorms bricks.
A few years ago (2004) it went by the name of NQC (not-quite-C).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565422</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565530</id>
	<title>Not KAREL?</title>
	<author>pspahn</author>
	<datestamp>1261908360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>While I worked as a special education assistant, I showed KAREL to a few students, and they were not only interested, but they found it fun.</htmltext>
<tokenext>While I worked as a special education assistant , I showed KAREL to a few students , and they were not only interested , but they found it fun .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While I worked as a special education assistant, I showed KAREL to a few students, and they were not only interested, but they found it fun.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565192</id>
	<title>Start with his own sandbox computer...</title>
	<author>beefnog</author>
	<datestamp>1261905840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm completely atypical in this respect, but I first learned to program in x86 assembly. Why? Because I was poor and the only computer I had was an XT clone that was given to me. I had no development tools except what came with DOS. I'm 27.

I think the absolute best thing you could do is give him a computer to experiment with. Provide all of the tools for development, but don't try to prod him into your following. If the interest is there then curiosity will spur the pursuit.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm completely atypical in this respect , but I first learned to program in x86 assembly .
Why ? Because I was poor and the only computer I had was an XT clone that was given to me .
I had no development tools except what came with DOS .
I 'm 27 .
I think the absolute best thing you could do is give him a computer to experiment with .
Provide all of the tools for development , but do n't try to prod him into your following .
If the interest is there then curiosity will spur the pursuit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm completely atypical in this respect, but I first learned to program in x86 assembly.
Why? Because I was poor and the only computer I had was an XT clone that was given to me.
I had no development tools except what came with DOS.
I'm 27.
I think the absolute best thing you could do is give him a computer to experiment with.
Provide all of the tools for development, but don't try to prod him into your following.
If the interest is there then curiosity will spur the pursuit.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569534</id>
	<title>Of course Pascal is still viable</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262000760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is nothing wrong with Pascal. Get him Lazarus or a free Delphi (if you can find it anywhere which is unlikely). He can then start writing some simple UI stuff without getting too frustrated. And it allows him to get into the itty gritty low level (meaning Windows or Linux api) stuff as well. If he likes it and understands the concepts, he will find the programming language of his choice faster than you can say JavaScript.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is nothing wrong with Pascal .
Get him Lazarus or a free Delphi ( if you can find it anywhere which is unlikely ) .
He can then start writing some simple UI stuff without getting too frustrated .
And it allows him to get into the itty gritty low level ( meaning Windows or Linux api ) stuff as well .
If he likes it and understands the concepts , he will find the programming language of his choice faster than you can say JavaScript .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is nothing wrong with Pascal.
Get him Lazarus or a free Delphi (if you can find it anywhere which is unlikely).
He can then start writing some simple UI stuff without getting too frustrated.
And it allows him to get into the itty gritty low level (meaning Windows or Linux api) stuff as well.
If he likes it and understands the concepts, he will find the programming language of his choice faster than you can say JavaScript.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568018</id>
	<title>Javascript is an idea, but...</title>
	<author>Jiro</author>
	<datestamp>1261931280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'll have to go with Javascript.  Along with some HTML, which isn't a language, but works with Javascript and introduces the concept of having computers follow instructions.  Of course I'm by no means the first person to suggest it, but it does have some attractions for a beginner:</p><p>-- language is actually used nowadays (you'd think this is an easy criterion, but people suggesting Logo or ancient home computers because that's what they programmed on 20 years ago fail at this one)<br>-- no compiling needed<br>-- you already have something that runs it<br>-- results immediately obvious, does things that are immediately useful, even to a 12 year old<br>-- existing body of programs all over the place that you can examine for yourself (just look in a bunch of web pages and you'll eventually find something)</p><p>I would watch out, however, for trying to push programming in any language on someone who it isn't right for.  Not all people can, want to, or need to, program, and I see an undercurrent of "of course he's going to program" in the original article.  You can't push your little brother into programming unless he wants to.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll have to go with Javascript .
Along with some HTML , which is n't a language , but works with Javascript and introduces the concept of having computers follow instructions .
Of course I 'm by no means the first person to suggest it , but it does have some attractions for a beginner : -- language is actually used nowadays ( you 'd think this is an easy criterion , but people suggesting Logo or ancient home computers because that 's what they programmed on 20 years ago fail at this one ) -- no compiling needed-- you already have something that runs it-- results immediately obvious , does things that are immediately useful , even to a 12 year old-- existing body of programs all over the place that you can examine for yourself ( just look in a bunch of web pages and you 'll eventually find something ) I would watch out , however , for trying to push programming in any language on someone who it is n't right for .
Not all people can , want to , or need to , program , and I see an undercurrent of " of course he 's going to program " in the original article .
You ca n't push your little brother into programming unless he wants to .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll have to go with Javascript.
Along with some HTML, which isn't a language, but works with Javascript and introduces the concept of having computers follow instructions.
Of course I'm by no means the first person to suggest it, but it does have some attractions for a beginner:-- language is actually used nowadays (you'd think this is an easy criterion, but people suggesting Logo or ancient home computers because that's what they programmed on 20 years ago fail at this one)-- no compiling needed-- you already have something that runs it-- results immediately obvious, does things that are immediately useful, even to a 12 year old-- existing body of programs all over the place that you can examine for yourself (just look in a bunch of web pages and you'll eventually find something)I would watch out, however, for trying to push programming in any language on someone who it isn't right for.
Not all people can, want to, or need to, program, and I see an undercurrent of "of course he's going to program" in the original article.
You can't push your little brother into programming unless he wants to.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570902</id>
	<title>Python + Head First Programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262014980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd recommend Python. It has the features of most languages and it's a good introduction to general programming concepts. Best to start with a book. Head First Programming has just come out and I believe that uses Python as the teachine language.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd recommend Python .
It has the features of most languages and it 's a good introduction to general programming concepts .
Best to start with a book .
Head First Programming has just come out and I believe that uses Python as the teachine language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd recommend Python.
It has the features of most languages and it's a good introduction to general programming concepts.
Best to start with a book.
Head First Programming has just come out and I believe that uses Python as the teachine language.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30619118</id>
	<title>Squeak - Learn Programming with Virtual Robots</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1230827100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>http://www.amazon.com/Squeak-Programming-Robots-Technology-Action/dp/1590594916</p><p>check this book out.  its a great book, and tons of fun</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //www.amazon.com/Squeak-Programming-Robots-Technology-Action/dp/1590594916check this book out .
its a great book , and tons of fun</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://www.amazon.com/Squeak-Programming-Robots-Technology-Action/dp/1590594916check this book out.
its a great book, and tons of fun</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566228</id>
	<title>Flash / Actionscript3</title>
	<author>Tronster</author>
	<datestamp>1261914120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If I was to teach beginning programming to a child or someone who does not know if they want to commit to the field, I would teach programming in Flash.</p><p>While the Flash IDE's debugging and scripting area is not suited for an experienced programmer, it does a great job of letting someone quickly wire up visual elements for that instant feedback &amp; gratification.  Core programming concepts such as variables, loops, and functions are quick to learn.  For those who want to continue AS3 has a long road of concepts going into bit fields, OO, shaders, etc...</p><p>There is a tremendous amount of books on programming in Flash / Actionscript 3; as well as great web sources in the forms of blogs and communities such as:<br><a href="http://www.kirupa.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=6" title="kirupa.com">http://www.kirupa.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=6</a> [kirupa.com]<br><a href="http://wonderfl.net/" title="wonderfl.net">http://wonderfl.net/</a> [wonderfl.net]<br><a href="http://www.gskinner.com/blog/" title="gskinner.com">http://www.gskinner.com/blog/</a> [gskinner.com]</p><p>This is coming from someone who has created and taught curriculum in Turbo Pascal and Turbo C++ back in the 90's for 11-15 year olds, and these days I am an adjunct professor teaching Flash &amp; Actionscript3 to artists (non-programmers).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If I was to teach beginning programming to a child or someone who does not know if they want to commit to the field , I would teach programming in Flash.While the Flash IDE 's debugging and scripting area is not suited for an experienced programmer , it does a great job of letting someone quickly wire up visual elements for that instant feedback &amp; gratification .
Core programming concepts such as variables , loops , and functions are quick to learn .
For those who want to continue AS3 has a long road of concepts going into bit fields , OO , shaders , etc...There is a tremendous amount of books on programming in Flash / Actionscript 3 ; as well as great web sources in the forms of blogs and communities such as : http : //www.kirupa.com/forum/forumdisplay.php ? f = 6 [ kirupa.com ] http : //wonderfl.net/ [ wonderfl.net ] http : //www.gskinner.com/blog/ [ gskinner.com ] This is coming from someone who has created and taught curriculum in Turbo Pascal and Turbo C + + back in the 90 's for 11-15 year olds , and these days I am an adjunct professor teaching Flash &amp; Actionscript3 to artists ( non-programmers ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I was to teach beginning programming to a child or someone who does not know if they want to commit to the field, I would teach programming in Flash.While the Flash IDE's debugging and scripting area is not suited for an experienced programmer, it does a great job of letting someone quickly wire up visual elements for that instant feedback &amp; gratification.
Core programming concepts such as variables, loops, and functions are quick to learn.
For those who want to continue AS3 has a long road of concepts going into bit fields, OO, shaders, etc...There is a tremendous amount of books on programming in Flash / Actionscript 3; as well as great web sources in the forms of blogs and communities such as:http://www.kirupa.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=6 [kirupa.com]http://wonderfl.net/ [wonderfl.net]http://www.gskinner.com/blog/ [gskinner.com]This is coming from someone who has created and taught curriculum in Turbo Pascal and Turbo C++ back in the 90's for 11-15 year olds, and these days I am an adjunct professor teaching Flash &amp; Actionscript3 to artists (non-programmers).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565150</id>
	<title>Free Pascal and Lazarus</title>
	<author>WolphFang</author>
	<datestamp>1261905660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why not try Free Pascal and Lazarus? You can use a lot of the material found in learning Delphi 5+ books for it. Is fully object oriented. It is seriously cross-platform also.
<br> <br>
From: <a href="http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Overview\_of\_Free\_Pascal\_and\_Lazarus" title="freepascal.org" rel="nofollow">http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Overview\_of\_Free\_Pascal\_and\_Lazarus</a> [freepascal.org]
<br> <br>
Free Pascal (FPC) is an open-source Pascal compiler with two notable features: a high degree of Delphi compatibility and availability on a variety of platforms, including Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux. Free Pascal's compatibility with Delphi includes not only support for the same Object Pascal programming language that Delphi uses, but also for many of the same libraries of powerful routines and classes that Delphi is justly known for. This includes familiar units such as System, SysUtils, StrUtils, DateUtils, Classes, Variants, Math, IniFiles and Registry, which are included with Free Pascal on all supported platforms. Free Pascal also includes units such as Windows, ShellAPI, BaseUnix, Unix and DynLibs for accessing features specific to an operating system. These dozen or so units make up the core of what is usually referred to as the Free Pascal run-time library (RTL).
<br> <br>
Lazarus is an open-source development system that builds on the Free Pascal compiler by adding an integrated development environment (IDE) that includes a syntax-highlighting code editor and visual form designer, as well as a component library that's highly compatible with Delphi's Visual Component Library (VCL). The Lazarus Component Library (LCL) includes equivalents for many of the familiar VCL controls such as forms, buttons, text boxes and so on that are used to create applications that have a graphical user interface (GUI).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why not try Free Pascal and Lazarus ?
You can use a lot of the material found in learning Delphi 5 + books for it .
Is fully object oriented .
It is seriously cross-platform also .
From : http : //wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Overview \ _of \ _Free \ _Pascal \ _and \ _Lazarus [ freepascal.org ] Free Pascal ( FPC ) is an open-source Pascal compiler with two notable features : a high degree of Delphi compatibility and availability on a variety of platforms , including Windows , Mac OS X , and Linux .
Free Pascal 's compatibility with Delphi includes not only support for the same Object Pascal programming language that Delphi uses , but also for many of the same libraries of powerful routines and classes that Delphi is justly known for .
This includes familiar units such as System , SysUtils , StrUtils , DateUtils , Classes , Variants , Math , IniFiles and Registry , which are included with Free Pascal on all supported platforms .
Free Pascal also includes units such as Windows , ShellAPI , BaseUnix , Unix and DynLibs for accessing features specific to an operating system .
These dozen or so units make up the core of what is usually referred to as the Free Pascal run-time library ( RTL ) .
Lazarus is an open-source development system that builds on the Free Pascal compiler by adding an integrated development environment ( IDE ) that includes a syntax-highlighting code editor and visual form designer , as well as a component library that 's highly compatible with Delphi 's Visual Component Library ( VCL ) .
The Lazarus Component Library ( LCL ) includes equivalents for many of the familiar VCL controls such as forms , buttons , text boxes and so on that are used to create applications that have a graphical user interface ( GUI ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why not try Free Pascal and Lazarus?
You can use a lot of the material found in learning Delphi 5+ books for it.
Is fully object oriented.
It is seriously cross-platform also.
From: http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Overview\_of\_Free\_Pascal\_and\_Lazarus [freepascal.org]
 
Free Pascal (FPC) is an open-source Pascal compiler with two notable features: a high degree of Delphi compatibility and availability on a variety of platforms, including Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux.
Free Pascal's compatibility with Delphi includes not only support for the same Object Pascal programming language that Delphi uses, but also for many of the same libraries of powerful routines and classes that Delphi is justly known for.
This includes familiar units such as System, SysUtils, StrUtils, DateUtils, Classes, Variants, Math, IniFiles and Registry, which are included with Free Pascal on all supported platforms.
Free Pascal also includes units such as Windows, ShellAPI, BaseUnix, Unix and DynLibs for accessing features specific to an operating system.
These dozen or so units make up the core of what is usually referred to as the Free Pascal run-time library (RTL).
Lazarus is an open-source development system that builds on the Free Pascal compiler by adding an integrated development environment (IDE) that includes a syntax-highlighting code editor and visual form designer, as well as a component library that's highly compatible with Delphi's Visual Component Library (VCL).
The Lazarus Component Library (LCL) includes equivalents for many of the familiar VCL controls such as forms, buttons, text boxes and so on that are used to create applications that have a graphical user interface (GUI).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567514</id>
	<title>First place to start isn't even near a computer...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261925460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you want to teach a kid programming, the lessons shouldn't start anywhere near a computer at all.  Start with visual problem-solving "toys" like LEGO, Tinketoy, ErectorSet, ConneX, and the like.  This will be an opportunity to observe and find out whether the kid takes well to the activity or even has a mind well suited to it (I have known people who <b>simply cannot program no matter how hard they try</b>).  If the kid isn't well suited for it or doesn't like it, then you can move along to something else; if the kid is a natural or takes a real shine to it, give them a few years' time with that to build up a suitable problem-solving framework upstairs, and THEN introduce them to computers and programming.  At that point I would suggest a <b>strongly typed</b> and structured language, like Pascal/Delphi.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you want to teach a kid programming , the lessons should n't start anywhere near a computer at all .
Start with visual problem-solving " toys " like LEGO , Tinketoy , ErectorSet , ConneX , and the like .
This will be an opportunity to observe and find out whether the kid takes well to the activity or even has a mind well suited to it ( I have known people who simply can not program no matter how hard they try ) .
If the kid is n't well suited for it or does n't like it , then you can move along to something else ; if the kid is a natural or takes a real shine to it , give them a few years ' time with that to build up a suitable problem-solving framework upstairs , and THEN introduce them to computers and programming .
At that point I would suggest a strongly typed and structured language , like Pascal/Delphi .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you want to teach a kid programming, the lessons shouldn't start anywhere near a computer at all.
Start with visual problem-solving "toys" like LEGO, Tinketoy, ErectorSet, ConneX, and the like.
This will be an opportunity to observe and find out whether the kid takes well to the activity or even has a mind well suited to it (I have known people who simply cannot program no matter how hard they try).
If the kid isn't well suited for it or doesn't like it, then you can move along to something else; if the kid is a natural or takes a real shine to it, give them a few years' time with that to build up a suitable problem-solving framework upstairs, and THEN introduce them to computers and programming.
At that point I would suggest a strongly typed and structured language, like Pascal/Delphi.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571592</id>
	<title>Re:plain C, python, or ruby</title>
	<author>pruss</author>
	<datestamp>1262018580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is surely false that "C is a tool for writing operating systems".  C is a general purpose programming language.  I've mainly used it myself for two purposes: (a) scientific computation (combinatorial, floating point and graphics), and (b) programming for PDAs (Sharp and Palm).  It is a perfectly fine language for scientific computation, without the overhead of C++ (which probably is not so much now as it used to be back when I was doing scientific computation).  And it is a standard tool for embedded systems programming, including both OS-type stuff <i>and applications</i>.  C might not be the best tool for GUI applications on desktop OSes, and is messy for heavy string manipulation, but for non-GUI applications on desktop OSes that don't do too much heavy string manipulation (for that, something with a well-integrated RE system is better) and for GUI applications on non-desktop OSes it is quite fine.</p><p>What C doesn't have is OO stuff.  But I don't think a beginner needs it--I think what is hard for a beginning programmer is the level of abstraction, and the level of abstraction in OOP is an order of magnitude higher.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is surely false that " C is a tool for writing operating systems " .
C is a general purpose programming language .
I 've mainly used it myself for two purposes : ( a ) scientific computation ( combinatorial , floating point and graphics ) , and ( b ) programming for PDAs ( Sharp and Palm ) .
It is a perfectly fine language for scientific computation , without the overhead of C + + ( which probably is not so much now as it used to be back when I was doing scientific computation ) .
And it is a standard tool for embedded systems programming , including both OS-type stuff and applications .
C might not be the best tool for GUI applications on desktop OSes , and is messy for heavy string manipulation , but for non-GUI applications on desktop OSes that do n't do too much heavy string manipulation ( for that , something with a well-integrated RE system is better ) and for GUI applications on non-desktop OSes it is quite fine.What C does n't have is OO stuff .
But I do n't think a beginner needs it--I think what is hard for a beginning programmer is the level of abstraction , and the level of abstraction in OOP is an order of magnitude higher .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is surely false that "C is a tool for writing operating systems".
C is a general purpose programming language.
I've mainly used it myself for two purposes: (a) scientific computation (combinatorial, floating point and graphics), and (b) programming for PDAs (Sharp and Palm).
It is a perfectly fine language for scientific computation, without the overhead of C++ (which probably is not so much now as it used to be back when I was doing scientific computation).
And it is a standard tool for embedded systems programming, including both OS-type stuff and applications.
C might not be the best tool for GUI applications on desktop OSes, and is messy for heavy string manipulation, but for non-GUI applications on desktop OSes that don't do too much heavy string manipulation (for that, something with a well-integrated RE system is better) and for GUI applications on non-desktop OSes it is quite fine.What C doesn't have is OO stuff.
But I don't think a beginner needs it--I think what is hard for a beginning programmer is the level of abstraction, and the level of abstraction in OOP is an order of magnitude higher.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565096</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565366</id>
	<title>Nudzo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261907100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At 14, I've fist time start something to program... it was Basic, after cca 6month a moved to Z80 assembler. I think it was a very good practice. After 20 years I've been looking at this way that it's perfect to start with some 'smell' of algorithmic thinking and then move to deep dive to roots for a while. In young years it could be benefit cause of ability of young brain to absorb such huge quantum of informations. Details are gone after years, but something like right intuition lasts, which is great benefit in next personal IT movements.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At 14 , I 've fist time start something to program... it was Basic , after cca 6month a moved to Z80 assembler .
I think it was a very good practice .
After 20 years I 've been looking at this way that it 's perfect to start with some 'smell ' of algorithmic thinking and then move to deep dive to roots for a while .
In young years it could be benefit cause of ability of young brain to absorb such huge quantum of informations .
Details are gone after years , but something like right intuition lasts , which is great benefit in next personal IT movements .
; - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At 14, I've fist time start something to program... it was Basic, after cca 6month a moved to Z80 assembler.
I think it was a very good practice.
After 20 years I've been looking at this way that it's perfect to start with some 'smell' of algorithmic thinking and then move to deep dive to roots for a while.
In young years it could be benefit cause of ability of young brain to absorb such huge quantum of informations.
Details are gone after years, but something like right intuition lasts, which is great benefit in next personal IT movements.
;-)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30573230</id>
	<title>Recommend Ruby</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262025780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ruby. Chris Pine has a nice site that helped my son start. Short tutorials that gave instant results to maintain interest.</p><p>http://pine.fm/LearnToProgram/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ruby .
Chris Pine has a nice site that helped my son start .
Short tutorials that gave instant results to maintain interest.http : //pine.fm/LearnToProgram/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ruby.
Chris Pine has a nice site that helped my son start.
Short tutorials that gave instant results to maintain interest.http://pine.fm/LearnToProgram/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569576</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Angostura</author>
	<datestamp>1262001540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My 7 year old daughter was quite interested in good old fashioned Logo. She worked out how to drive the turtle around the screen with the basic commands. Then I showed her how to use the basic loops and recursion to make fancier patterns. No idea if she will ever want to take programming further but she enjoys what she is doing and understands the basic 'a program is a series of commands' concept - so that's good enough for me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My 7 year old daughter was quite interested in good old fashioned Logo .
She worked out how to drive the turtle around the screen with the basic commands .
Then I showed her how to use the basic loops and recursion to make fancier patterns .
No idea if she will ever want to take programming further but she enjoys what she is doing and understands the basic 'a program is a series of commands ' concept - so that 's good enough for me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My 7 year old daughter was quite interested in good old fashioned Logo.
She worked out how to drive the turtle around the screen with the basic commands.
Then I showed her how to use the basic loops and recursion to make fancier patterns.
No idea if she will ever want to take programming further but she enjoys what she is doing and understands the basic 'a program is a series of commands' concept - so that's good enough for me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564986</id>
	<title>How To Design Programs with DrScheme</title>
	<author>chthon</author>
	<datestamp>1261904640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <a href="http://www.htdp.org/" title="htdp.org">How To Design Programs</a> [htdp.org]
</p><p>Really. If he is interested in programming and you can guide him to follow the book, then he will know what to expect from a programming language, get a a good background and will not need to unlearn bad habits.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How To Design Programs [ htdp.org ] Really .
If he is interested in programming and you can guide him to follow the book , then he will know what to expect from a programming language , get a a good background and will not need to unlearn bad habits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> How To Design Programs [htdp.org]
Really.
If he is interested in programming and you can guide him to follow the book, then he will know what to expect from a programming language, get a a good background and will not need to unlearn bad habits.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566792</id>
	<title>Re:Go with ActionScript 3.0</title>
	<author>BenoitRen</author>
	<datestamp>1261919460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I think the secret to any object oriented language is to avoid complex memory references as much as possible, and just stick with dumb arrays and procedural programming as much as possible.</p></div> </blockquote><p>In other words, the secret to using an OO language is not to use its OO features? Are you for real?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the secret to any object oriented language is to avoid complex memory references as much as possible , and just stick with dumb arrays and procedural programming as much as possible .
In other words , the secret to using an OO language is not to use its OO features ?
Are you for real ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the secret to any object oriented language is to avoid complex memory references as much as possible, and just stick with dumb arrays and procedural programming as much as possible.
In other words, the secret to using an OO language is not to use its OO features?
Are you for real?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567964</id>
	<title>BASIC</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261930500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Basic is quick and easy, and its Turing complete.  Some might now start to say<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...but it can't... and I reply: AND ITS TURING COMPLETE!  Easy to learn, quick enough to code, immediate feedback, gets you up and running fast.  Even if you haven't coded in a while, you can prototype in a language like BASIC debug fast, and then recode in a lower level language like C.  You keep learning during the transition.  Toss in libraries and modules and suddenly you have apps that you can publish.  KEWEL!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Basic is quick and easy , and its Turing complete .
Some might now start to say ...but it ca n't... and I reply : AND ITS TURING COMPLETE !
Easy to learn , quick enough to code , immediate feedback , gets you up and running fast .
Even if you have n't coded in a while , you can prototype in a language like BASIC debug fast , and then recode in a lower level language like C. You keep learning during the transition .
Toss in libraries and modules and suddenly you have apps that you can publish .
KEWEL !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Basic is quick and easy, and its Turing complete.
Some might now start to say ...but it can't... and I reply: AND ITS TURING COMPLETE!
Easy to learn, quick enough to code, immediate feedback, gets you up and running fast.
Even if you haven't coded in a while, you can prototype in a language like BASIC debug fast, and then recode in a lower level language like C.  You keep learning during the transition.
Toss in libraries and modules and suddenly you have apps that you can publish.
KEWEL!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567928</id>
	<title>A gentler suggestion</title>
	<author>Blackjax</author>
	<datestamp>1261929960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I see a lot of posters here suggesting things like Python and, god forbid, Perl &amp; C.  I think people suggesting things like that are forgetting that this is a 12 year old he is trying to interest in it, not a teenage geek already interested in it as they probably were.  Your best start is probably something where they can see instant gratification in the form of something the kid might be interested in accomplishing with technology.  Lego Mindstorms might be a good start, and then if they latch onto that heavily perhaps you could move them to an Arduino in a year or two.  You might also consider something like this:</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch\_(programming\_language)" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch\_(programming\_language)</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I see a lot of posters here suggesting things like Python and , god forbid , Perl &amp; C. I think people suggesting things like that are forgetting that this is a 12 year old he is trying to interest in it , not a teenage geek already interested in it as they probably were .
Your best start is probably something where they can see instant gratification in the form of something the kid might be interested in accomplishing with technology .
Lego Mindstorms might be a good start , and then if they latch onto that heavily perhaps you could move them to an Arduino in a year or two .
You might also consider something like this : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch \ _ ( programming \ _language ) [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I see a lot of posters here suggesting things like Python and, god forbid, Perl &amp; C.  I think people suggesting things like that are forgetting that this is a 12 year old he is trying to interest in it, not a teenage geek already interested in it as they probably were.
Your best start is probably something where they can see instant gratification in the form of something the kid might be interested in accomplishing with technology.
Lego Mindstorms might be a good start, and then if they latch onto that heavily perhaps you could move them to an Arduino in a year or two.
You might also consider something like this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch\_(programming\_language) [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30576788</id>
	<title>Make him work around filtering</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262001120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Write an internet filtering system that blocks porn and install it on his comp. He'll learn programming to hack around it in no time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Write an internet filtering system that blocks porn and install it on his comp .
He 'll learn programming to hack around it in no time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Write an internet filtering system that blocks porn and install it on his comp.
He'll learn programming to hack around it in no time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30646402</id>
	<title>Visual Basic?</title>
	<author>gravis777</author>
	<datestamp>1231064400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, its a Microsoft product, but its not half bad. Has exactly what you asked, an easy to learn language (BASIC) that is actually usable in real-world scenarios.</p><p>NEVER teach C or Java or Assembly to a first time programmer unless they are really bright. You need to teach a person how to develope reasoning and logic first before they start worrying about syntax and object oriented stuff, and Basic is a great stepping stone. The advantage of Visual Basic is suddenly you are in a GUI enviornment, and once you learn the easy stuff, you can actaully get into object oriented stuff.</p><p>But yes, in the end, stick to Basic, GWBasic, or Visual Basic. You have got to have that foundation of understanding programing Logic first and formost. After you have that foundation, you can fairly easily jump into any other language.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , its a Microsoft product , but its not half bad .
Has exactly what you asked , an easy to learn language ( BASIC ) that is actually usable in real-world scenarios.NEVER teach C or Java or Assembly to a first time programmer unless they are really bright .
You need to teach a person how to develope reasoning and logic first before they start worrying about syntax and object oriented stuff , and Basic is a great stepping stone .
The advantage of Visual Basic is suddenly you are in a GUI enviornment , and once you learn the easy stuff , you can actaully get into object oriented stuff.But yes , in the end , stick to Basic , GWBasic , or Visual Basic .
You have got to have that foundation of understanding programing Logic first and formost .
After you have that foundation , you can fairly easily jump into any other language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, its a Microsoft product, but its not half bad.
Has exactly what you asked, an easy to learn language (BASIC) that is actually usable in real-world scenarios.NEVER teach C or Java or Assembly to a first time programmer unless they are really bright.
You need to teach a person how to develope reasoning and logic first before they start worrying about syntax and object oriented stuff, and Basic is a great stepping stone.
The advantage of Visual Basic is suddenly you are in a GUI enviornment, and once you learn the easy stuff, you can actaully get into object oriented stuff.But yes, in the end, stick to Basic, GWBasic, or Visual Basic.
You have got to have that foundation of understanding programing Logic first and formost.
After you have that foundation, you can fairly easily jump into any other language.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570038</id>
	<title>Re:plain C, python, or ruby</title>
	<author>redalien</author>
	<datestamp>1262008620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>C does not teach you to be careful about memory allocation.  I've marked undergraduate coursework written in C, do you know how many times I saw free()?  Zero.  AFAICT it was only used by the 3rd year undergrads on the crypto course as they were the only people that had to deal with large amounts of allocations.  Most people that learn on C will never bother with free, they'll let the OS clean up on process termination.</htmltext>
<tokenext>C does not teach you to be careful about memory allocation .
I 've marked undergraduate coursework written in C , do you know how many times I saw free ( ) ?
Zero. AFAICT it was only used by the 3rd year undergrads on the crypto course as they were the only people that had to deal with large amounts of allocations .
Most people that learn on C will never bother with free , they 'll let the OS clean up on process termination .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>C does not teach you to be careful about memory allocation.
I've marked undergraduate coursework written in C, do you know how many times I saw free()?
Zero.  AFAICT it was only used by the 3rd year undergrads on the crypto course as they were the only people that had to deal with large amounts of allocations.
Most people that learn on C will never bother with free, they'll let the OS clean up on process termination.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569434</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571454</id>
	<title>Microsoft small basic</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262017800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is a pretty neat tool for a new programmer:</p><p>http://smallbasic.com/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is a pretty neat tool for a new programmer : http : //smallbasic.com/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is a pretty neat tool for a new programmer:http://smallbasic.com/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565628</id>
	<title>javascript is for pussies</title>
	<author>Neil Jansen</author>
	<datestamp>1261909080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Javascript is for pussies.  Teach him <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck" title="wikipedia.org">brainfuck</a> [wikipedia.org].</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Javascript is for pussies .
Teach him brainfuck [ wikipedia.org ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Javascript is for pussies.
Teach him brainfuck [wikipedia.org].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564862</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568676</id>
	<title>C++ good base and easy to learn for the youngsters</title>
	<author>cdmoly</author>
	<datestamp>1261941240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My son taught himself C++ at the age of 12. He still uses it now (He's 15) and it has helped him with game coding which is what he really likes to do. there are some books available to for youngsters to start with simple tasks.  Try an amazon.com search for coding or software development for kids. Hope that helps.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My son taught himself C + + at the age of 12 .
He still uses it now ( He 's 15 ) and it has helped him with game coding which is what he really likes to do .
there are some books available to for youngsters to start with simple tasks .
Try an amazon.com search for coding or software development for kids .
Hope that helps .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My son taught himself C++ at the age of 12.
He still uses it now (He's 15) and it has helped him with game coding which is what he really likes to do.
there are some books available to for youngsters to start with simple tasks.
Try an amazon.com search for coding or software development for kids.
Hope that helps.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566006</id>
	<title>The Real Answer</title>
	<author>poopdeville</author>
	<datestamp>1261912140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The real answer to your question is to <i>not</i> teach programming.  Get them started on some abstract mathematics.  It will serve them <i>far</i> better than learning to become the newest web flunkie on the planet.</p><p>If you <i>must</i> teach some kind of programming, go with a typed functional language, like Haskell or ML.  Focus on these concepts, as they bring out the relation between proof and computation (every computation is a "constructive" proof):</p><p><a href="http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~mpj/pubs/springschool95.pdf" title="pdx.edu" rel="nofollow">http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~mpj/pubs/springschool95.pdf</a> [pdx.edu]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The real answer to your question is to not teach programming .
Get them started on some abstract mathematics .
It will serve them far better than learning to become the newest web flunkie on the planet.If you must teach some kind of programming , go with a typed functional language , like Haskell or ML .
Focus on these concepts , as they bring out the relation between proof and computation ( every computation is a " constructive " proof ) : http : //web.cecs.pdx.edu/ ~ mpj/pubs/springschool95.pdf [ pdx.edu ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The real answer to your question is to not teach programming.
Get them started on some abstract mathematics.
It will serve them far better than learning to become the newest web flunkie on the planet.If you must teach some kind of programming, go with a typed functional language, like Haskell or ML.
Focus on these concepts, as they bring out the relation between proof and computation (every computation is a "constructive" proof):http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~mpj/pubs/springschool95.pdf [pdx.edu]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565794</id>
	<title>I would recommend FORTH</title>
	<author>quarkscat</author>
	<datestamp>1261910460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The syntax is simple.  The basic operations are simple.  The concept of 2 stacks to work with is simple.  There is a core of operands/words (libraries) upon which all else is built.  There is free on-line documentation available, as well as free versions that run under DOS, Win32, and Linux.  It can also be easily extended later with C language.  Even FORTRAN translates into FORTH without much pain.

It a great learning tool for programming, and even if FORTH, along with C and ASM, is all your youngster learns, he or she could have a good future in the embedded programming field.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The syntax is simple .
The basic operations are simple .
The concept of 2 stacks to work with is simple .
There is a core of operands/words ( libraries ) upon which all else is built .
There is free on-line documentation available , as well as free versions that run under DOS , Win32 , and Linux .
It can also be easily extended later with C language .
Even FORTRAN translates into FORTH without much pain .
It a great learning tool for programming , and even if FORTH , along with C and ASM , is all your youngster learns , he or she could have a good future in the embedded programming field .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The syntax is simple.
The basic operations are simple.
The concept of 2 stacks to work with is simple.
There is a core of operands/words (libraries) upon which all else is built.
There is free on-line documentation available, as well as free versions that run under DOS, Win32, and Linux.
It can also be easily extended later with C language.
Even FORTRAN translates into FORTH without much pain.
It a great learning tool for programming, and even if FORTH, along with C and ASM, is all your youngster learns, he or she could have a good future in the embedded programming field.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565006</id>
	<title>Re:Python</title>
	<author>thoughtfulbloke</author>
	<datestamp>1261904880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Python works very well where the child wants to solve a problem (my 11 year daughter learned it for doing image analysis for a science fair project).<br>
1) Explain general data types: string, number, file, etc<br>
2) Explain syntax: make something equal to everything after the equals sign<br>
3) Explain control flows: 2 equals is the comparison<br>
4) Explain objects: heyYou.doThis(withThis)<br>
<br>
But if you are just trying to build interest, rather than solve a problem, I suggest javascript as you can build on an existing familiarity with web pages to interactive slide shows, quiz games, etc.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Python works very well where the child wants to solve a problem ( my 11 year daughter learned it for doing image analysis for a science fair project ) .
1 ) Explain general data types : string , number , file , etc 2 ) Explain syntax : make something equal to everything after the equals sign 3 ) Explain control flows : 2 equals is the comparison 4 ) Explain objects : heyYou.doThis ( withThis ) But if you are just trying to build interest , rather than solve a problem , I suggest javascript as you can build on an existing familiarity with web pages to interactive slide shows , quiz games , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Python works very well where the child wants to solve a problem (my 11 year daughter learned it for doing image analysis for a science fair project).
1) Explain general data types: string, number, file, etc
2) Explain syntax: make something equal to everything after the equals sign
3) Explain control flows: 2 equals is the comparison
4) Explain objects: heyYou.doThis(withThis)

But if you are just trying to build interest, rather than solve a problem, I suggest javascript as you can build on an existing familiarity with web pages to interactive slide shows, quiz games, etc.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568402</id>
	<title>Klik and Play</title>
	<author>Lunatrik</author>
	<datestamp>1261936920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I hope whoever is writing this sees it, but when I was growing up my parents turned me on to an oolldd program called "Klik and Play", designed for exactly this. <br>

<a href="http://www.stevenchan.us/programming/klik" title="stevenchan.us">http://www.stevenchan.us/programming/klik</a> [stevenchan.us]</htmltext>
<tokenext>I hope whoever is writing this sees it , but when I was growing up my parents turned me on to an oolldd program called " Klik and Play " , designed for exactly this .
http : //www.stevenchan.us/programming/klik [ stevenchan.us ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hope whoever is writing this sees it, but when I was growing up my parents turned me on to an oolldd program called "Klik and Play", designed for exactly this.
http://www.stevenchan.us/programming/klik [stevenchan.us]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565470</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261907700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you want him to be hooked on programming, them pick DarkBasicPro - it's free, and it's 3D......</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you want him to be hooked on programming , them pick DarkBasicPro - it 's free , and it 's 3D..... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you want him to be hooked on programming, them pick DarkBasicPro - it's free, and it's 3D......</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567638</id>
	<title>Scratch and Alice</title>
	<author>ChenLing</author>
	<datestamp>1261926840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Go with a visual programming language -- where they can see "fun" results right away, and that's age appropriate. What I just did with my 2 cousins (14 and 16 year old girls):<ul>
<li>Scratch: <a href="http://scratch.mit.edu/" title="mit.edu">http://scratch.mit.edu/</a> [mit.edu]</li>
<li>Alice: <a href="http://alice.org/" title="alice.org">http://alice.org/</a> [alice.org]</li>
<li>Storytelling Alice: <a href="http://alice.org/kelleher/storytelling/index.html" title="alice.org">http://alice.org/kelleher/storytelling/index.html</a> [alice.org]</li>
</ul><p>

That's a *much* better way to start them off. It's equivalent to BASIC on an Apple II really, but even more fun.<br>

Then you can start them off on something like a Facebook App, and then web pages with Perl/Javascript/HTML.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Go with a visual programming language -- where they can see " fun " results right away , and that 's age appropriate .
What I just did with my 2 cousins ( 14 and 16 year old girls ) : Scratch : http : //scratch.mit.edu/ [ mit.edu ] Alice : http : //alice.org/ [ alice.org ] Storytelling Alice : http : //alice.org/kelleher/storytelling/index.html [ alice.org ] That 's a * much * better way to start them off .
It 's equivalent to BASIC on an Apple II really , but even more fun .
Then you can start them off on something like a Facebook App , and then web pages with Perl/Javascript/HTML .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Go with a visual programming language -- where they can see "fun" results right away, and that's age appropriate.
What I just did with my 2 cousins (14 and 16 year old girls):
Scratch: http://scratch.mit.edu/ [mit.edu]
Alice: http://alice.org/ [alice.org]
Storytelling Alice: http://alice.org/kelleher/storytelling/index.html [alice.org]


That's a *much* better way to start them off.
It's equivalent to BASIC on an Apple II really, but even more fun.
Then you can start them off on something like a Facebook App, and then web pages with Perl/Javascript/HTML.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567882</id>
	<title>Re:plain C, python, or ruby</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261929360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The OO stuff is, in my opinion, totally unnecessary for a first-time programmer to learn.</p></div><p>When is he going to learn it if not right at the beginning? So many programmers don't do proper OO because they were contaminated by BASIC-like languages. Objects are actually a pretty simple concept if you don't have to unlearn an unencapsulated style to learn them.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The OO stuff is , in my opinion , totally unnecessary for a first-time programmer to learn.When is he going to learn it if not right at the beginning ?
So many programmers do n't do proper OO because they were contaminated by BASIC-like languages .
Objects are actually a pretty simple concept if you do n't have to unlearn an unencapsulated style to learn them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The OO stuff is, in my opinion, totally unnecessary for a first-time programmer to learn.When is he going to learn it if not right at the beginning?
So many programmers don't do proper OO because they were contaminated by BASIC-like languages.
Objects are actually a pretty simple concept if you don't have to unlearn an unencapsulated style to learn them.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564904</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564928</id>
	<title>Visual Basic</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261947540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Troll all you want, but VB is a good way to go for a starter language.</p><p>He doesn't have to master it, but use it to teach him the basics of UI, variables, ect.  When I ventured into programming at 13 this was my entry language and I'm glad I took the time to learn it as it provided me with a solid foundation and left me prepared to move onto other languages such as ruby, C/C++, and javascript.</p><p>This is an example of a simple program I coded as a starter a few years back, it divides a total amount of pennies into change.</p><p>Public Class MoneyForm</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Private Sub ExitButton\_Click(ByVal sender As Object, ByVal e As System.EventArgs) Handles ExitButton.Click<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.Close()<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; End Sub</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Private Sub ClearButton\_Click(ByVal sender As Object, ByVal e As System.EventArgs) Handles ClearButton.Click<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.InputTextBox.Text = ""<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.QuartersLabel.Text = ""<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.DimeLabel.Text = ""<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.NicklesLabel.Text = ""<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.PenniesLabel.Text = ""<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.DollarsLabel.Text = ""</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; End Sub</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Private Sub CalcButton\_Click(ByVal sender As Object, ByVal e As System.EventArgs) Handles CalcButton.Click<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 'declare variables<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Dim intPenniesInput, intDollars, intQuarters, intDimes, intNickels, intPenniesOutput As Integer<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 'get input from user<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; intPenniesInput = Val(Me.InputTextBox.Text)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 'calc values<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; intDollars = intPenniesInput \ 100<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; intPenniesOutput = intPenniesInput Mod 100<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; intQuarters = ((intPenniesOutput \ 25))<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; intPenniesOutput = intPenniesOutput Mod 25<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; intDimes = intPenniesOutput \ 10<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; intPenniesOutput = intPenniesOutput Mod 10<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; intNickels = intPenniesOutput \ 5<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; intPenniesOutput = intPenniesOutput Mod 5<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 'display results</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.DollarsLabel.Text = intDollars<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.QuartersLabel.Text = intQuarters<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.DimeLabel.Text = intDimes<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.NicklesLabel.Text = intNickels<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.PenniesLabel.Text = intPenniesOutput</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; End Sub</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Private Sub InputTextBox\_TextChanged(ByVal sender As Object, ByVal e As System.EventArgs) Handles InputTextBox.TextChanged<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.QuartersLabel.Text = ""<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.DimeLabel.Text = ""<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.NicklesLabel.Text = ""<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.PenniesLabel.Text = ""<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Me.DollarsLabel.Text = ""<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; End Sub<br>End Class</p><p>Once he's firm on coding things like this, move onto harder stuff such as C/C++</p><p>-P</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Troll all you want , but VB is a good way to go for a starter language.He does n't have to master it , but use it to teach him the basics of UI , variables , ect .
When I ventured into programming at 13 this was my entry language and I 'm glad I took the time to learn it as it provided me with a solid foundation and left me prepared to move onto other languages such as ruby , C/C + + , and javascript.This is an example of a simple program I coded as a starter a few years back , it divides a total amount of pennies into change.Public Class MoneyForm         Private Sub ExitButton \ _Click ( ByVal sender As Object , ByVal e As System.EventArgs ) Handles ExitButton.Click                 Me.Close ( )         End Sub         Private Sub ClearButton \ _Click ( ByVal sender As Object , ByVal e As System.EventArgs ) Handles ClearButton.Click                 Me.InputTextBox.Text = " "                 Me.QuartersLabel.Text = " "                 Me.DimeLabel.Text = " "                 Me.NicklesLabel.Text = " "                 Me.PenniesLabel.Text = " "                 Me.DollarsLabel.Text = " "         End Sub         Private Sub CalcButton \ _Click ( ByVal sender As Object , ByVal e As System.EventArgs ) Handles CalcButton.Click                 'declare variables                 Dim intPenniesInput , intDollars , intQuarters , intDimes , intNickels , intPenniesOutput As Integer                 'get input from user                 intPenniesInput = Val ( Me.InputTextBox.Text )                 'calc values                 intDollars = intPenniesInput \ 100                 intPenniesOutput = intPenniesInput Mod 100                 intQuarters = ( ( intPenniesOutput \ 25 ) )                 intPenniesOutput = intPenniesOutput Mod 25                 intDimes = intPenniesOutput \ 10                 intPenniesOutput = intPenniesOutput Mod 10                 intNickels = intPenniesOutput \ 5                 intPenniesOutput = intPenniesOutput Mod 5                 'display results                 Me.DollarsLabel.Text = intDollars                 Me.QuartersLabel.Text = intQuarters                 Me.DimeLabel.Text = intDimes                 Me.NicklesLabel.Text = intNickels                 Me.PenniesLabel.Text = intPenniesOutput         End Sub         Private Sub InputTextBox \ _TextChanged ( ByVal sender As Object , ByVal e As System.EventArgs ) Handles InputTextBox.TextChanged                 Me.QuartersLabel.Text = " "                 Me.DimeLabel.Text = " "                 Me.NicklesLabel.Text = " "                 Me.PenniesLabel.Text = " "                 Me.DollarsLabel.Text = " "         End SubEnd ClassOnce he 's firm on coding things like this , move onto harder stuff such as C/C + + -P</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Troll all you want, but VB is a good way to go for a starter language.He doesn't have to master it, but use it to teach him the basics of UI, variables, ect.
When I ventured into programming at 13 this was my entry language and I'm glad I took the time to learn it as it provided me with a solid foundation and left me prepared to move onto other languages such as ruby, C/C++, and javascript.This is an example of a simple program I coded as a starter a few years back, it divides a total amount of pennies into change.Public Class MoneyForm
        Private Sub ExitButton\_Click(ByVal sender As Object, ByVal e As System.EventArgs) Handles ExitButton.Click
                Me.Close()
        End Sub
        Private Sub ClearButton\_Click(ByVal sender As Object, ByVal e As System.EventArgs) Handles ClearButton.Click
                Me.InputTextBox.Text = ""
                Me.QuartersLabel.Text = ""
                Me.DimeLabel.Text = ""
                Me.NicklesLabel.Text = ""
                Me.PenniesLabel.Text = ""
                Me.DollarsLabel.Text = ""
        End Sub
        Private Sub CalcButton\_Click(ByVal sender As Object, ByVal e As System.EventArgs) Handles CalcButton.Click
                'declare variables
                Dim intPenniesInput, intDollars, intQuarters, intDimes, intNickels, intPenniesOutput As Integer
                'get input from user
                intPenniesInput = Val(Me.InputTextBox.Text)
                'calc values
                intDollars = intPenniesInput \ 100
                intPenniesOutput = intPenniesInput Mod 100
                intQuarters = ((intPenniesOutput \ 25))
                intPenniesOutput = intPenniesOutput Mod 25
                intDimes = intPenniesOutput \ 10
                intPenniesOutput = intPenniesOutput Mod 10
                intNickels = intPenniesOutput \ 5
                intPenniesOutput = intPenniesOutput Mod 5
                'display results
                Me.DollarsLabel.Text = intDollars
                Me.QuartersLabel.Text = intQuarters
                Me.DimeLabel.Text = intDimes
                Me.NicklesLabel.Text = intNickels
                Me.PenniesLabel.Text = intPenniesOutput
        End Sub
        Private Sub InputTextBox\_TextChanged(ByVal sender As Object, ByVal e As System.EventArgs) Handles InputTextBox.TextChanged
                Me.QuartersLabel.Text = ""
                Me.DimeLabel.Text = ""
                Me.NicklesLabel.Text = ""
                Me.PenniesLabel.Text = ""
                Me.DollarsLabel.Text = ""
        End SubEnd ClassOnce he's firm on coding things like this, move onto harder stuff such as C/C++-P</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30573880</id>
	<title>Just Make sure to do it Right</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262028900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I started teaching myself how to program when I was 9.  Unfortunately, the only books on programming languages I found in the school library back then were BASIC.  Whatever you do, start the 12 year old off with something good.  Like C, or at least C++.  In the order of Data Types, Console I/O, then math operations (plenty of toy programs can be created from the above three).</p><p>Then, if statements, loops, and if they're following well, file I/O.</p><p>IF they're still into it, get to the good stuff like pointers, data structures, methods, pass by ref/val, function pointers, etc.</p><p>I wish this was the way I learned, I would have done much better in college instead of relying on the really bad habits I picked up using M$ QuickBasic45.  Ugh!  Goto!  SUBS and FUNCTIONS on entirely different screens with no real passing management, bleh!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I started teaching myself how to program when I was 9 .
Unfortunately , the only books on programming languages I found in the school library back then were BASIC .
Whatever you do , start the 12 year old off with something good .
Like C , or at least C + + .
In the order of Data Types , Console I/O , then math operations ( plenty of toy programs can be created from the above three ) .Then , if statements , loops , and if they 're following well , file I/O.IF they 're still into it , get to the good stuff like pointers , data structures , methods , pass by ref/val , function pointers , etc.I wish this was the way I learned , I would have done much better in college instead of relying on the really bad habits I picked up using M $ QuickBasic45 .
Ugh ! Goto !
SUBS and FUNCTIONS on entirely different screens with no real passing management , bleh !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started teaching myself how to program when I was 9.
Unfortunately, the only books on programming languages I found in the school library back then were BASIC.
Whatever you do, start the 12 year old off with something good.
Like C, or at least C++.
In the order of Data Types, Console I/O, then math operations (plenty of toy programs can be created from the above three).Then, if statements, loops, and if they're following well, file I/O.IF they're still into it, get to the good stuff like pointers, data structures, methods, pass by ref/val, function pointers, etc.I wish this was the way I learned, I would have done much better in college instead of relying on the really bad habits I picked up using M$ QuickBasic45.
Ugh!  Goto!
SUBS and FUNCTIONS on entirely different screens with no real passing management, bleh!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569410</id>
	<title>Solve a problem</title>
	<author>blake182</author>
	<datestamp>1261998060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, here's what I'd advise:

</p><p>Solve a problem.

</p><p>My background is that I got an Apple ][+ in 1979. I was 11. Today I'm a professional programmer, and I've worked in lots of different languages. The first things I remember doing "solved a problem":

</p><ul>
<li>I modified the PHONE LIST program to say DATE LIST. Like I pawed through the BASIC code and found where it printed it, and changed it to say DATE LIST. And I used it to try and impress a girl (I put her phone number in it). I'm not kidding about this.</li><li>I had a paper route. I used VisiCalc to figure out my margin from my paper route. Like I knew how much I paid for my papers, and I knew how much I charged, so I figured out what my margin was.</li></ul><p>But the point is that I didn't start with "I want to program", I started with "I'm gonna solve me a problem."

</p><p>And then I started keying in programs from the BASIC Computer Games and More BASIC Computer Games books. Which is actually how I learned BASIC, because the dialect of BASIC in the books wasn't the same as Applesoft BASIC, so I had to learn how to fix it.

</p><p>And I just spent a lot of time finding new programs and playing with them.

</p><p>I wasn't pressured by my dad to program a computer. It was just lying around. I responded to it. If you wanted to do anything cool, you better get to typing some BASIC. So I did.

</p><p>My daughter is 11 right now. She hangs out on the Neopets website. A large portion of participating in that community is doing stuff in HTML, Javascript and CSS. She makes pages in order to participate in the community, and she understands how the changes in CSS work. Some of her designs are pretty clever. She has taken HTML from other places and modified it to suit her needs. She's showing very programmer-like behaviors.

</p><p>In my day, I wouldn't consider a BASIC -&gt; Pascal progression. That's if you're going to get a CS degree. Pascal wasn't a practical operating environment on the Apple ][. Professional programming in general was done in 6502 assembler, which I learned when I started making more advanced stuff that I wanted to use personally. In my teens, I started working at a software company part-time after school, and I had to maintain 6502 code, which is where I ultimately thrived.

</p><p>So anyway, solve a problem that your kid wants to solve, and let the problem dictate the tool. Much as with professional programming. Don't just hunt around looking for tools to learn at the outset. Make the learning evolve naturally from the problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , here 's what I 'd advise : Solve a problem .
My background is that I got an Apple ] [ + in 1979 .
I was 11 .
Today I 'm a professional programmer , and I 've worked in lots of different languages .
The first things I remember doing " solved a problem " : I modified the PHONE LIST program to say DATE LIST .
Like I pawed through the BASIC code and found where it printed it , and changed it to say DATE LIST .
And I used it to try and impress a girl ( I put her phone number in it ) .
I 'm not kidding about this.I had a paper route .
I used VisiCalc to figure out my margin from my paper route .
Like I knew how much I paid for my papers , and I knew how much I charged , so I figured out what my margin was.But the point is that I did n't start with " I want to program " , I started with " I 'm gon na solve me a problem .
" And then I started keying in programs from the BASIC Computer Games and More BASIC Computer Games books .
Which is actually how I learned BASIC , because the dialect of BASIC in the books was n't the same as Applesoft BASIC , so I had to learn how to fix it .
And I just spent a lot of time finding new programs and playing with them .
I was n't pressured by my dad to program a computer .
It was just lying around .
I responded to it .
If you wanted to do anything cool , you better get to typing some BASIC .
So I did .
My daughter is 11 right now .
She hangs out on the Neopets website .
A large portion of participating in that community is doing stuff in HTML , Javascript and CSS .
She makes pages in order to participate in the community , and she understands how the changes in CSS work .
Some of her designs are pretty clever .
She has taken HTML from other places and modified it to suit her needs .
She 's showing very programmer-like behaviors .
In my day , I would n't consider a BASIC - &gt; Pascal progression .
That 's if you 're going to get a CS degree .
Pascal was n't a practical operating environment on the Apple ] [ .
Professional programming in general was done in 6502 assembler , which I learned when I started making more advanced stuff that I wanted to use personally .
In my teens , I started working at a software company part-time after school , and I had to maintain 6502 code , which is where I ultimately thrived .
So anyway , solve a problem that your kid wants to solve , and let the problem dictate the tool .
Much as with professional programming .
Do n't just hunt around looking for tools to learn at the outset .
Make the learning evolve naturally from the problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, here's what I'd advise:

Solve a problem.
My background is that I got an Apple ][+ in 1979.
I was 11.
Today I'm a professional programmer, and I've worked in lots of different languages.
The first things I remember doing "solved a problem":


I modified the PHONE LIST program to say DATE LIST.
Like I pawed through the BASIC code and found where it printed it, and changed it to say DATE LIST.
And I used it to try and impress a girl (I put her phone number in it).
I'm not kidding about this.I had a paper route.
I used VisiCalc to figure out my margin from my paper route.
Like I knew how much I paid for my papers, and I knew how much I charged, so I figured out what my margin was.But the point is that I didn't start with "I want to program", I started with "I'm gonna solve me a problem.
"

And then I started keying in programs from the BASIC Computer Games and More BASIC Computer Games books.
Which is actually how I learned BASIC, because the dialect of BASIC in the books wasn't the same as Applesoft BASIC, so I had to learn how to fix it.
And I just spent a lot of time finding new programs and playing with them.
I wasn't pressured by my dad to program a computer.
It was just lying around.
I responded to it.
If you wanted to do anything cool, you better get to typing some BASIC.
So I did.
My daughter is 11 right now.
She hangs out on the Neopets website.
A large portion of participating in that community is doing stuff in HTML, Javascript and CSS.
She makes pages in order to participate in the community, and she understands how the changes in CSS work.
Some of her designs are pretty clever.
She has taken HTML from other places and modified it to suit her needs.
She's showing very programmer-like behaviors.
In my day, I wouldn't consider a BASIC -&gt; Pascal progression.
That's if you're going to get a CS degree.
Pascal wasn't a practical operating environment on the Apple ][.
Professional programming in general was done in 6502 assembler, which I learned when I started making more advanced stuff that I wanted to use personally.
In my teens, I started working at a software company part-time after school, and I had to maintain 6502 code, which is where I ultimately thrived.
So anyway, solve a problem that your kid wants to solve, and let the problem dictate the tool.
Much as with professional programming.
Don't just hunt around looking for tools to learn at the outset.
Make the learning evolve naturally from the problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565968</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Gorobei</author>
	<datestamp>1261911900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>But the main point being, do not throw him right away to the nerdy shit that programming is. Get him started with the more easy programming languages first. There's a lot more such now a days too. Hell, don't except him to get to c++ programming ever. It's a limited area in work sense. Sure it's good to know it, but it isn't the best language or answer to everything.</i></p><p>Damn straight - avoid C++ like the plague.  It's a 20 year old POS mess that teaches bad habits from the get-go.  Sort of like Fortran for the new generation.</p><p>Half of software engineering is concerned with trying to fix the poison that is C++:  design patterns?  pointers?  header files?  linkers?  partial template instantiation?  raw datatypes?</p><p>Sheesh, if fucking space aliens wanted to destroy our planet, lacking an FTL drive, they would have just sent us the C++ spec via radio.</p><p>Yeah, Bjarne, I'm talking about you, you fucking traitor to the entire human race.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But the main point being , do not throw him right away to the nerdy shit that programming is .
Get him started with the more easy programming languages first .
There 's a lot more such now a days too .
Hell , do n't except him to get to c + + programming ever .
It 's a limited area in work sense .
Sure it 's good to know it , but it is n't the best language or answer to everything.Damn straight - avoid C + + like the plague .
It 's a 20 year old POS mess that teaches bad habits from the get-go .
Sort of like Fortran for the new generation.Half of software engineering is concerned with trying to fix the poison that is C + + : design patterns ?
pointers ? header files ?
linkers ? partial template instantiation ?
raw datatypes ? Sheesh , if fucking space aliens wanted to destroy our planet , lacking an FTL drive , they would have just sent us the C + + spec via radio.Yeah , Bjarne , I 'm talking about you , you fucking traitor to the entire human race .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But the main point being, do not throw him right away to the nerdy shit that programming is.
Get him started with the more easy programming languages first.
There's a lot more such now a days too.
Hell, don't except him to get to c++ programming ever.
It's a limited area in work sense.
Sure it's good to know it, but it isn't the best language or answer to everything.Damn straight - avoid C++ like the plague.
It's a 20 year old POS mess that teaches bad habits from the get-go.
Sort of like Fortran for the new generation.Half of software engineering is concerned with trying to fix the poison that is C++:  design patterns?
pointers?  header files?
linkers?  partial template instantiation?
raw datatypes?Sheesh, if fucking space aliens wanted to destroy our planet, lacking an FTL drive, they would have just sent us the C++ spec via radio.Yeah, Bjarne, I'm talking about you, you fucking traitor to the entire human race.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565456</id>
	<title>Re:No, no.</title>
	<author>glorpy</author>
	<datestamp>1261907580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Precisely my thoughts. Data structures and pointer management are important concepts to understand, but they should not be "end goals" so much as means to an end - a career in electrical engineering or programming - which is something the kid is not ready to decide upon.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Precisely my thoughts .
Data structures and pointer management are important concepts to understand , but they should not be " end goals " so much as means to an end - a career in electrical engineering or programming - which is something the kid is not ready to decide upon .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Precisely my thoughts.
Data structures and pointer management are important concepts to understand, but they should not be "end goals" so much as means to an end - a career in electrical engineering or programming - which is something the kid is not ready to decide upon.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565032</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565258</id>
	<title>Re:Python</title>
	<author>bradt</author>
	<datestamp>1261906320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You might look at <a href="http://code.google.com/p/swfk/" title="google.com" rel="nofollow">Snake Wrangling for Kids</a> [google.com] or perhaps at <a href="http://www.greenteapress.com/thinkpython/" title="greenteapress.com" rel="nofollow">How to Think Like a Computer Scientist</a> [greenteapress.com].</htmltext>
<tokenext>You might look at Snake Wrangling for Kids [ google.com ] or perhaps at How to Think Like a Computer Scientist [ greenteapress.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You might look at Snake Wrangling for Kids [google.com] or perhaps at How to Think Like a Computer Scientist [greenteapress.com].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564910</id>
	<title>I wouldn't recommend BASIC</title>
	<author>mysidia</author>
	<datestamp>1261947420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
And neither would others.
</p><blockquote><div><p>It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. <b>--Edsger Dijkstra</b></p></div> </blockquote><p>
PASCAL.. mediocre choice.
C, okay... C++.. if you insist.
</p><p>
Python: pretty good,  Ruby, Ada: great,  Haskell/SCHEME/LISP/ML: EXCELLENT
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And neither would others .
It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC : as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration .
--Edsger Dijkstra PASCAL.. mediocre choice .
C , okay... C + + .. if you insist .
Python : pretty good , Ruby , Ada : great , Haskell/SCHEME/LISP/ML : EXCELLENT</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
And neither would others.
It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.
--Edsger Dijkstra 
PASCAL.. mediocre choice.
C, okay... C++.. if you insist.
Python: pretty good,  Ruby, Ada: great,  Haskell/SCHEME/LISP/ML: EXCELLENT

	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570490</id>
	<title>my 2 cents (maybe 5 cents) worth...</title>
	<author>lavaticus</author>
	<datestamp>1262012160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Much like everyone else here I'd suggest seeing if your brother is interested <br>
I had my brother ask me where to start recently because he was interested in making his own games and already was fluent in 2d and 3d animation.<br> <br>

For him flash programming was a no-brainer as he'd already experimented and I so I found a good book that went over the basics that I knew he could build on.
<br> <br>
I would suggest one of the following as a good starter:
<ul> <li>Flash (instant gratification and lots of tutorials)
</li><li>Ada (learnt this one at university, fantastic starter as it's very strict but limited application outside of education)
</li><li>Java (good language with lots of applications but can be tricky for a starter and I feel can lead to sloppy programming)
</li><li>C#.net or VB.net both of which are great as they are strict and have loads of applications once learnt.
</li></ul><p>
Also html+javascript+css isn't going to teach programming unless they want to be a webhead.
<br> <br>
python I haven't touched but by the sounds of everyone on here it would be another good starting point. I'd only say look around for online tutorials and see what's out there before starting.
<br> <br>
get him to learn the basics - we all have been there and then start getting into the more fun projects like simple games and build on the skills he learns as you go.
<br> <br>
Programming is hard but it can be very rewarding to see something you built working efficiently... and then making it work better!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Much like everyone else here I 'd suggest seeing if your brother is interested I had my brother ask me where to start recently because he was interested in making his own games and already was fluent in 2d and 3d animation .
For him flash programming was a no-brainer as he 'd already experimented and I so I found a good book that went over the basics that I knew he could build on .
I would suggest one of the following as a good starter : Flash ( instant gratification and lots of tutorials ) Ada ( learnt this one at university , fantastic starter as it 's very strict but limited application outside of education ) Java ( good language with lots of applications but can be tricky for a starter and I feel can lead to sloppy programming ) C # .net or VB.net both of which are great as they are strict and have loads of applications once learnt .
Also html + javascript + css is n't going to teach programming unless they want to be a webhead .
python I have n't touched but by the sounds of everyone on here it would be another good starting point .
I 'd only say look around for online tutorials and see what 's out there before starting .
get him to learn the basics - we all have been there and then start getting into the more fun projects like simple games and build on the skills he learns as you go .
Programming is hard but it can be very rewarding to see something you built working efficiently... and then making it work better !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Much like everyone else here I'd suggest seeing if your brother is interested 
I had my brother ask me where to start recently because he was interested in making his own games and already was fluent in 2d and 3d animation.
For him flash programming was a no-brainer as he'd already experimented and I so I found a good book that went over the basics that I knew he could build on.
I would suggest one of the following as a good starter:
 Flash (instant gratification and lots of tutorials)
Ada (learnt this one at university, fantastic starter as it's very strict but limited application outside of education)
Java (good language with lots of applications but can be tricky for a starter and I feel can lead to sloppy programming)
C#.net or VB.net both of which are great as they are strict and have loads of applications once learnt.
Also html+javascript+css isn't going to teach programming unless they want to be a webhead.
python I haven't touched but by the sounds of everyone on here it would be another good starting point.
I'd only say look around for online tutorials and see what's out there before starting.
get him to learn the basics - we all have been there and then start getting into the more fun projects like simple games and build on the skills he learns as you go.
Programming is hard but it can be very rewarding to see something you built working efficiently... and then making it work better!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567788</id>
	<title>I started with C when I was 11...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261928400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>---And I'm a damn good coder today.  That being said, I would suggest teaching the kid something he can do something neat in, or he'll likely lose interest.  Maybe GameMaker or those  robotic lego things..  Then move him into Python when he grows past those.</htmltext>
<tokenext>---And I 'm a damn good coder today .
That being said , I would suggest teaching the kid something he can do something neat in , or he 'll likely lose interest .
Maybe GameMaker or those robotic lego things.. Then move him into Python when he grows past those .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>---And I'm a damn good coder today.
That being said, I would suggest teaching the kid something he can do something neat in, or he'll likely lose interest.
Maybe GameMaker or those  robotic lego things..  Then move him into Python when he grows past those.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568642</id>
	<title>from my own expierence</title>
	<author>kdemetter</author>
	<datestamp>1261940760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well , i started with QBasic when i must have been about 10-11 years old.<br>Which was a pain at the time , because you could program , but not build your programs ( the compiler i had didn't have the option to create exe's . later ones did  ) .</p><p>Then i moved on to Visual Basic 4 , than Visual Basic 6 , and eventually Visual Basic.NET ( much later )<br>I think i most have been 14-15 years old when i started playing around with C++  . I also looked into Java but only really started programming in it when i was studying informatics .</p><p>In hindsight , it would have been better had i started with C++ and then moved on the Java. The Basic language seems so useless to me now . Then again it was easy to create some fun graphical effects with it ( putting dots and lines in various colors on the screen , etc<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... ) . But you can probably do that in C++ was well .</p><p>So i would go for C++ , though i remember the syntax ( the for in particular ) being frightfull at first . It's good for learning the basics though.<br>Then move onto Java or C#  later.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , i started with QBasic when i must have been about 10-11 years old.Which was a pain at the time , because you could program , but not build your programs ( the compiler i had did n't have the option to create exe 's .
later ones did ) .Then i moved on to Visual Basic 4 , than Visual Basic 6 , and eventually Visual Basic.NET ( much later ) I think i most have been 14-15 years old when i started playing around with C + + .
I also looked into Java but only really started programming in it when i was studying informatics .In hindsight , it would have been better had i started with C + + and then moved on the Java .
The Basic language seems so useless to me now .
Then again it was easy to create some fun graphical effects with it ( putting dots and lines in various colors on the screen , etc ... ) .
But you can probably do that in C + + was well .So i would go for C + + , though i remember the syntax ( the for in particular ) being frightfull at first .
It 's good for learning the basics though.Then move onto Java or C # later .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well , i started with QBasic when i must have been about 10-11 years old.Which was a pain at the time , because you could program , but not build your programs ( the compiler i had didn't have the option to create exe's .
later ones did  ) .Then i moved on to Visual Basic 4 , than Visual Basic 6 , and eventually Visual Basic.NET ( much later )I think i most have been 14-15 years old when i started playing around with C++  .
I also looked into Java but only really started programming in it when i was studying informatics .In hindsight , it would have been better had i started with C++ and then moved on the Java.
The Basic language seems so useless to me now .
Then again it was easy to create some fun graphical effects with it ( putting dots and lines in various colors on the screen , etc ... ) .
But you can probably do that in C++ was well .So i would go for C++ , though i remember the syntax ( the for in particular ) being frightfull at first .
It's good for learning the basics though.Then move onto Java or C#  later.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</id>
	<title>Programming</title>
	<author>sopssa</author>
	<datestamp>1261946880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You didn't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all. Because if he isn't, he will never be. I tried to show programming for my little brother too, but he just couldn't be interested. It's something you need to be interested at, and if you are, you've probably picked it up yourself at that age. But maybe it's worth giving it a try at least, but don't feel bad if he doesn't get interested in it.</p><p>I started programming with Quick Basic. I don't remember exactly how I got there, I think I was doing "programming" like stuff with Paint or other such programs and my father instructed me to Quick Basic (this is when I was 7-8 years old). I remember having some game programming with quick basic book, that had simple examples and exercises. It was probably perfect for that age; simple, but still you got to see nice results. If i would had been dropped in to c/c++ instantly, I would probably had dropped whole programming thing.</p><p>Next logical translation from that was to Visual Basic, continuing on making own games, mostly top-down ones. It was nice to be in Windows environment, while still having easy language to go by. And there were DirectX libraries available too, and I learned first basics in 3D programming and raytracing. There were also some nice sierra style adventuring games game developing books released and I had couple of them.</p><p>Next step is more interesting tho. I had tried c++ for some times already, but I never really liked it. It was too much shit to get by, and wasn't that nice to develop with. I mean, I knew it and could code with it, but I really didn't want to. But I tried Delphi, and fell in love with it, mostly because of it's comprehensive component library, good help and nice coding. To this day I still prefer Delphi in GUI programming unless I really have to use C, it's just a lot nicer.</p><p>But the main point being, do not throw him right away to the nerdy shit that programming is. Get him started with the more easy programming languages first. There's a lot more such now a days too. Hell, don't except him to get to c++ programming ever. It's a limited area in work sense. Sure it's good to know it, but it isn't the best language or answer to everything.</p><p>Just let it be fun for him, and get him interested on programming on its own merits. Otherwise it's not going to work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You did n't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all .
Because if he is n't , he will never be .
I tried to show programming for my little brother too , but he just could n't be interested .
It 's something you need to be interested at , and if you are , you 've probably picked it up yourself at that age .
But maybe it 's worth giving it a try at least , but do n't feel bad if he does n't get interested in it.I started programming with Quick Basic .
I do n't remember exactly how I got there , I think I was doing " programming " like stuff with Paint or other such programs and my father instructed me to Quick Basic ( this is when I was 7-8 years old ) .
I remember having some game programming with quick basic book , that had simple examples and exercises .
It was probably perfect for that age ; simple , but still you got to see nice results .
If i would had been dropped in to c/c + + instantly , I would probably had dropped whole programming thing.Next logical translation from that was to Visual Basic , continuing on making own games , mostly top-down ones .
It was nice to be in Windows environment , while still having easy language to go by .
And there were DirectX libraries available too , and I learned first basics in 3D programming and raytracing .
There were also some nice sierra style adventuring games game developing books released and I had couple of them.Next step is more interesting tho .
I had tried c + + for some times already , but I never really liked it .
It was too much shit to get by , and was n't that nice to develop with .
I mean , I knew it and could code with it , but I really did n't want to .
But I tried Delphi , and fell in love with it , mostly because of it 's comprehensive component library , good help and nice coding .
To this day I still prefer Delphi in GUI programming unless I really have to use C , it 's just a lot nicer.But the main point being , do not throw him right away to the nerdy shit that programming is .
Get him started with the more easy programming languages first .
There 's a lot more such now a days too .
Hell , do n't except him to get to c + + programming ever .
It 's a limited area in work sense .
Sure it 's good to know it , but it is n't the best language or answer to everything.Just let it be fun for him , and get him interested on programming on its own merits .
Otherwise it 's not going to work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You didn't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all.
Because if he isn't, he will never be.
I tried to show programming for my little brother too, but he just couldn't be interested.
It's something you need to be interested at, and if you are, you've probably picked it up yourself at that age.
But maybe it's worth giving it a try at least, but don't feel bad if he doesn't get interested in it.I started programming with Quick Basic.
I don't remember exactly how I got there, I think I was doing "programming" like stuff with Paint or other such programs and my father instructed me to Quick Basic (this is when I was 7-8 years old).
I remember having some game programming with quick basic book, that had simple examples and exercises.
It was probably perfect for that age; simple, but still you got to see nice results.
If i would had been dropped in to c/c++ instantly, I would probably had dropped whole programming thing.Next logical translation from that was to Visual Basic, continuing on making own games, mostly top-down ones.
It was nice to be in Windows environment, while still having easy language to go by.
And there were DirectX libraries available too, and I learned first basics in 3D programming and raytracing.
There were also some nice sierra style adventuring games game developing books released and I had couple of them.Next step is more interesting tho.
I had tried c++ for some times already, but I never really liked it.
It was too much shit to get by, and wasn't that nice to develop with.
I mean, I knew it and could code with it, but I really didn't want to.
But I tried Delphi, and fell in love with it, mostly because of it's comprehensive component library, good help and nice coding.
To this day I still prefer Delphi in GUI programming unless I really have to use C, it's just a lot nicer.But the main point being, do not throw him right away to the nerdy shit that programming is.
Get him started with the more easy programming languages first.
There's a lot more such now a days too.
Hell, don't except him to get to c++ programming ever.
It's a limited area in work sense.
Sure it's good to know it, but it isn't the best language or answer to everything.Just let it be fun for him, and get him interested on programming on its own merits.
Otherwise it's not going to work.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571118</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262016060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I did programming in College, and I enjoyed it for a while, but it's something that I could never stay interested in for long.  Why not teach your younger brother how to solder pipe, or wire up a three way switch?  There's lots of satisfaction from working with your hands, and it'll prepare him for doing work in his own house someday instead of having to call a plumber or electrician to do "simple" work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I did programming in College , and I enjoyed it for a while , but it 's something that I could never stay interested in for long .
Why not teach your younger brother how to solder pipe , or wire up a three way switch ?
There 's lots of satisfaction from working with your hands , and it 'll prepare him for doing work in his own house someday instead of having to call a plumber or electrician to do " simple " work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I did programming in College, and I enjoyed it for a while, but it's something that I could never stay interested in for long.
Why not teach your younger brother how to solder pipe, or wire up a three way switch?
There's lots of satisfaction from working with your hands, and it'll prepare him for doing work in his own house someday instead of having to call a plumber or electrician to do "simple" work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564944</id>
	<title>Ruby</title>
	<author>mysidia</author>
	<datestamp>1261904400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
It's really easy to get started, and there's an online, interactive <a href="http://tryruby.org/" title="tryruby.org" rel="nofollow">ruby tutorial</a> [tryruby.org]
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's really easy to get started , and there 's an online , interactive ruby tutorial [ tryruby.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
It's really easy to get started, and there's an online, interactive ruby tutorial [tryruby.org]
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567720</id>
	<title>Re:Time for that father-son talk</title>
	<author>m6ack</author>
	<datestamp>1261927620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Corollary -- even if it's not a mistake, you provide support for a lifetime; so, learn to make simple tools that do only one thing.  Make your customer responsible for building upon your simple tools to do complex things -- and make the "children" your customer's problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Corollary -- even if it 's not a mistake , you provide support for a lifetime ; so , learn to make simple tools that do only one thing .
Make your customer responsible for building upon your simple tools to do complex things -- and make the " children " your customer 's problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Corollary -- even if it's not a mistake, you provide support for a lifetime; so, learn to make simple tools that do only one thing.
Make your customer responsible for building upon your simple tools to do complex things -- and make the "children" your customer's problem.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567290</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565524</id>
	<title>Processing</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261908300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How about Processing?  Allows you to create some cool interactive projects, with great graphics support.  Also a natural if you want to get into Arduino programming.</p><p>www.processing.org</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about Processing ?
Allows you to create some cool interactive projects , with great graphics support .
Also a natural if you want to get into Arduino programming.www.processing.org</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about Processing?
Allows you to create some cool interactive projects, with great graphics support.
Also a natural if you want to get into Arduino programming.www.processing.org</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565186</id>
	<title>python</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261905780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The snake that will die one day.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The snake that will die one day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The snake that will die one day.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569402</id>
	<title>It's easy</title>
	<author>Dr.Syshalt</author>
	<datestamp>1261997700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Q: How to teach a 12-year-old to program?</p><p>A: It's easy. Just tell them they shouldn't do it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Q : How to teach a 12-year-old to program ? A : It 's easy .
Just tell them they should n't do it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Q: How to teach a 12-year-old to program?A: It's easy.
Just tell them they shouldn't do it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566514</id>
	<title>Game Programming with Blitz MAX</title>
	<author>kervin</author>
	<datestamp>1261916820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Game programming with <a href="http://www.blitzmax.com/" title="blitzmax.com" rel="nofollow">Blitz Max</a> [blitzmax.com] was the way we went.  There is actually a book called <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Teens-Third-Maneesh-Sethi/dp/1598635182/" title="amazon.com" rel="nofollow">Game Programming for Teens</a> [amazon.com] that gives you some lesson structure.</p><p>BlitzMax also has a C++ SDK, so you can graduate to that at some point.  But as a recovering C++ developer myself I can't understand why you'd want to do the poor kid that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Game programming with Blitz Max [ blitzmax.com ] was the way we went .
There is actually a book called Game Programming for Teens [ amazon.com ] that gives you some lesson structure.BlitzMax also has a C + + SDK , so you can graduate to that at some point .
But as a recovering C + + developer myself I ca n't understand why you 'd want to do the poor kid that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Game programming with Blitz Max [blitzmax.com] was the way we went.
There is actually a book called Game Programming for Teens [amazon.com] that gives you some lesson structure.BlitzMax also has a C++ SDK, so you can graduate to that at some point.
But as a recovering C++ developer myself I can't understand why you'd want to do the poor kid that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565318</id>
	<title>depends what he likes..</title>
	<author>Youngbull</author>
	<datestamp>1261906620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I would guess that at an early age you should appeal to their interests, if he is into "web2.0", social networking and that kind of stuff I would guess ruby and lead him towards ruby on rails later on, nice loving language, powerful framework.
<br> <br>
If he like games, python and eventually teach pygame or pyglet. Maybe you'll put competing together in PyWeek as a goal.
<br> <br>
If none of the above applies but he have a general interest in computers, Haskell is just a jawdroppingly beautiful language. Functional and typed. I just love it. Graham Hutton: Programming in Haskell is a great book for learning Haskell, and if your looking for an online resource there is always <a href="http://learnyouahaskell.com/" title="learnyouahaskell.com" rel="nofollow">Learn You a Haskell For Great Good</a> [learnyouahaskell.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would guess that at an early age you should appeal to their interests , if he is into " web2.0 " , social networking and that kind of stuff I would guess ruby and lead him towards ruby on rails later on , nice loving language , powerful framework .
If he like games , python and eventually teach pygame or pyglet .
Maybe you 'll put competing together in PyWeek as a goal .
If none of the above applies but he have a general interest in computers , Haskell is just a jawdroppingly beautiful language .
Functional and typed .
I just love it .
Graham Hutton : Programming in Haskell is a great book for learning Haskell , and if your looking for an online resource there is always Learn You a Haskell For Great Good [ learnyouahaskell.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would guess that at an early age you should appeal to their interests, if he is into "web2.0", social networking and that kind of stuff I would guess ruby and lead him towards ruby on rails later on, nice loving language, powerful framework.
If he like games, python and eventually teach pygame or pyglet.
Maybe you'll put competing together in PyWeek as a goal.
If none of the above applies but he have a general interest in computers, Haskell is just a jawdroppingly beautiful language.
Functional and typed.
I just love it.
Graham Hutton: Programming in Haskell is a great book for learning Haskell, and if your looking for an online resource there is always Learn You a Haskell For Great Good [learnyouahaskell.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571268</id>
	<title>Re:javascript</title>
	<author>CobaltBlueDW</author>
	<datestamp>1262016840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Javascript is probably one of THE worst languages of all time.  Shame on you for even suggesting it in jest.</p><p>Not only does it use bad syntax and force the user to use bad syntax, its lack of proper structure encourages bad programming practices.  It uses prototyping chains as apposed to classes, which makes it a bad language for transition.  It is made to integrate with many other technologies such as HTML/CSS/PHP/etc., which makes it more difficult to pick-up and run with.  It doesn't handle syntax and logic errors well enough to be helpful for a beginner.  It's full of quirks like, foreach not being suitable for array traversal, and functions being passed by value.  It's built-in libraries are laughably bad.  It can't do simple file IO directly, which is a major tool for teaching early programming concepts.  It doesn't even do simple user input that well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Javascript is probably one of THE worst languages of all time .
Shame on you for even suggesting it in jest.Not only does it use bad syntax and force the user to use bad syntax , its lack of proper structure encourages bad programming practices .
It uses prototyping chains as apposed to classes , which makes it a bad language for transition .
It is made to integrate with many other technologies such as HTML/CSS/PHP/etc. , which makes it more difficult to pick-up and run with .
It does n't handle syntax and logic errors well enough to be helpful for a beginner .
It 's full of quirks like , foreach not being suitable for array traversal , and functions being passed by value .
It 's built-in libraries are laughably bad .
It ca n't do simple file IO directly , which is a major tool for teaching early programming concepts .
It does n't even do simple user input that well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Javascript is probably one of THE worst languages of all time.
Shame on you for even suggesting it in jest.Not only does it use bad syntax and force the user to use bad syntax, its lack of proper structure encourages bad programming practices.
It uses prototyping chains as apposed to classes, which makes it a bad language for transition.
It is made to integrate with many other technologies such as HTML/CSS/PHP/etc., which makes it more difficult to pick-up and run with.
It doesn't handle syntax and logic errors well enough to be helpful for a beginner.
It's full of quirks like, foreach not being suitable for array traversal, and functions being passed by value.
It's built-in libraries are laughably bad.
It can't do simple file IO directly, which is a major tool for teaching early programming concepts.
It doesn't even do simple user input that well.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564862</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569758</id>
	<title>LISP</title>
	<author>keean</author>
	<datestamp>1262004720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think a simple LISP interpreter would be a great way to get started in programming. You can move on from basic maths (1 + 2) pretty easily to LISP. LUSH looks good <a href="http://lush.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html" title="sourceforge.net" rel="nofollow">http://lush.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html</a> [sourceforge.net] as it provides a complete environment including graphics and combines LISP with inline C, in a similar way to the way BBC Basic has inline assembler.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think a simple LISP interpreter would be a great way to get started in programming .
You can move on from basic maths ( 1 + 2 ) pretty easily to LISP .
LUSH looks good http : //lush.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html [ sourceforge.net ] as it provides a complete environment including graphics and combines LISP with inline C , in a similar way to the way BBC Basic has inline assembler .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think a simple LISP interpreter would be a great way to get started in programming.
You can move on from basic maths (1 + 2) pretty easily to LISP.
LUSH looks good http://lush.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html [sourceforge.net] as it provides a complete environment including graphics and combines LISP with inline C, in a similar way to the way BBC Basic has inline assembler.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569782</id>
	<title>2 cents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262005080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>BASH/Command Prompt -&gt; LOGO -&gt; HTML -&gt; BASIC -&gt; Pascal(Delphi) -&gt; Assembler -&gt; C -&gt; Java</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>BASH/Command Prompt - &gt; LOGO - &gt; HTML - &gt; BASIC - &gt; Pascal ( Delphi ) - &gt; Assembler - &gt; C - &gt; Java</tokentext>
<sentencetext>BASH/Command Prompt -&gt; LOGO -&gt; HTML -&gt; BASIC -&gt; Pascal(Delphi) -&gt; Assembler -&gt; C -&gt; Java</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567556</id>
	<title>Why not age 7?  language isn't too important</title>
	<author>Weezul</author>
	<datestamp>1261926000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I started learning basic between age 6 and 7 for the purpose of writing my own games, and then learned C from K&amp;R around age 12.</p><p>I don't feel like the language is nearly as important as why she'll remain interested.  First, you must provide a role model by visibly playing by writing programs yourself.  Second, you need a medium of action which the kid will appreciate.  A few possible medium are (1) lego mindstorm, (2) X10 home automation devices, and (3) video games.</p><p>I think the language will often then be determined by your own entertainment interests.</p><p>p.s.  A major threat here is the potential distraction from more passive entertainment like better video games and television.  If you play flash games, then start writing them.  If you play WoW yourself, then write Lua script addons, and teach her how to write them too.  If you play counterstrike, then learn how to program bots, and play games involving bots.  etc.  I'd seriously consider selling your wii, playstation, xbox, etc. and also avoiding the television.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I started learning basic between age 6 and 7 for the purpose of writing my own games , and then learned C from K&amp;R around age 12.I do n't feel like the language is nearly as important as why she 'll remain interested .
First , you must provide a role model by visibly playing by writing programs yourself .
Second , you need a medium of action which the kid will appreciate .
A few possible medium are ( 1 ) lego mindstorm , ( 2 ) X10 home automation devices , and ( 3 ) video games.I think the language will often then be determined by your own entertainment interests.p.s .
A major threat here is the potential distraction from more passive entertainment like better video games and television .
If you play flash games , then start writing them .
If you play WoW yourself , then write Lua script addons , and teach her how to write them too .
If you play counterstrike , then learn how to program bots , and play games involving bots .
etc. I 'd seriously consider selling your wii , playstation , xbox , etc .
and also avoiding the television .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started learning basic between age 6 and 7 for the purpose of writing my own games, and then learned C from K&amp;R around age 12.I don't feel like the language is nearly as important as why she'll remain interested.
First, you must provide a role model by visibly playing by writing programs yourself.
Second, you need a medium of action which the kid will appreciate.
A few possible medium are (1) lego mindstorm, (2) X10 home automation devices, and (3) video games.I think the language will often then be determined by your own entertainment interests.p.s.
A major threat here is the potential distraction from more passive entertainment like better video games and television.
If you play flash games, then start writing them.
If you play WoW yourself, then write Lua script addons, and teach her how to write them too.
If you play counterstrike, then learn how to program bots, and play games involving bots.
etc.  I'd seriously consider selling your wii, playstation, xbox, etc.
and also avoiding the television.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30578430</id>
	<title>Re:Ease in with scratch</title>
	<author>kjenks</author>
	<datestamp>1262014020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Scratch!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Scratch !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Scratch!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565016</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565430</id>
	<title>Start with HTML, CSS and JavaScript...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261907460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think it's best to get him going with something that shows results quickly. I would recommend to start him with HTML and CSS and he'll see how things come together and then start on with JavaScript if he wants to do something more complex. If he's still interested, he'll pick up other areas by himself, but HTML, and CSS should get him going to have something on the screen that he owns.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think it 's best to get him going with something that shows results quickly .
I would recommend to start him with HTML and CSS and he 'll see how things come together and then start on with JavaScript if he wants to do something more complex .
If he 's still interested , he 'll pick up other areas by himself , but HTML , and CSS should get him going to have something on the screen that he owns .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think it's best to get him going with something that shows results quickly.
I would recommend to start him with HTML and CSS and he'll see how things come together and then start on with JavaScript if he wants to do something more complex.
If he's still interested, he'll pick up other areas by himself, but HTML, and CSS should get him going to have something on the screen that he owns.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564960</id>
	<title>Shoot for instant gratification with...</title>
	<author>mccotter</author>
	<datestamp>1261904520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>web programming.  Set him up with a web server where he can work on projects to show off to his friends. I believe that in the beginning learning how to express yourself in code is more important than what language you're doing it in....</p><p>Instant gratification + something cool to share with friends == success and satisfaction.</p><p>I wish you luck...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>web programming .
Set him up with a web server where he can work on projects to show off to his friends .
I believe that in the beginning learning how to express yourself in code is more important than what language you 're doing it in....Instant gratification + something cool to share with friends = = success and satisfaction.I wish you luck.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>web programming.
Set him up with a web server where he can work on projects to show off to his friends.
I believe that in the beginning learning how to express yourself in code is more important than what language you're doing it in....Instant gratification + something cool to share with friends == success and satisfaction.I wish you luck...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565516</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261908240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You didn't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all. Because if he isn't, he will never be.</p></div><p>That's not true at all. A lot of it comes down to how it's presented, and how the kid thinks.</p><p>I used to be a math major and eventually I switched to CS. I started finding the math classes to be so abstract and pointless, around the time of multivariable calculus and linear algebra. Now, nine years later, I'm reading two linear algebra books because I already have my reasons -- I'm going to be taking a course on parallel computing <b>and</b> there are applications for linear algebra in audio that I never knew of before.</p><p>One of the two linear algebra books is an old school math book, very dense in topics covered but loath to present examples much less applications of the subjects. The other book is a little too friendly (and has that awkward transitional trying-to-include-the-internet thing), but it explains things well and by the end of the first chapter it had already shown me practical applications of linear algebra that I'd never heard of -- despite not even getting to the point of talking about matrices. The first book is exactly why I lost interest in being a math major, though I do have more appreciation for the story-like quality of how the various abstract things intertwine.</p><p>Few people become interested in writing software simply for the sake of writing software -- they go into it because they imagine all the things they can make with it. If you teach someone a programming language by having them work on things that don't do anything they care about, they most likely will not develop an interest in software. <br>
&nbsp; <br>Another option -- an underrated option, I think -- is to find fields of logic that they'd think are interesting, which most likely would be under the heading of discrete math. Starting them off with things like riddles that are really logic puzzles is a great way to get someone interested in thinking about logic, which leads to specific issues of data and algorithms. Those puzzles may have more appeal than "Hello world", and the kid would come to software (assuming he does) with a much better understanding of the basics than most professionals have.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You did n't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all .
Because if he is n't , he will never be.That 's not true at all .
A lot of it comes down to how it 's presented , and how the kid thinks.I used to be a math major and eventually I switched to CS .
I started finding the math classes to be so abstract and pointless , around the time of multivariable calculus and linear algebra .
Now , nine years later , I 'm reading two linear algebra books because I already have my reasons -- I 'm going to be taking a course on parallel computing and there are applications for linear algebra in audio that I never knew of before.One of the two linear algebra books is an old school math book , very dense in topics covered but loath to present examples much less applications of the subjects .
The other book is a little too friendly ( and has that awkward transitional trying-to-include-the-internet thing ) , but it explains things well and by the end of the first chapter it had already shown me practical applications of linear algebra that I 'd never heard of -- despite not even getting to the point of talking about matrices .
The first book is exactly why I lost interest in being a math major , though I do have more appreciation for the story-like quality of how the various abstract things intertwine.Few people become interested in writing software simply for the sake of writing software -- they go into it because they imagine all the things they can make with it .
If you teach someone a programming language by having them work on things that do n't do anything they care about , they most likely will not develop an interest in software .
  Another option -- an underrated option , I think -- is to find fields of logic that they 'd think are interesting , which most likely would be under the heading of discrete math .
Starting them off with things like riddles that are really logic puzzles is a great way to get someone interested in thinking about logic , which leads to specific issues of data and algorithms .
Those puzzles may have more appeal than " Hello world " , and the kid would come to software ( assuming he does ) with a much better understanding of the basics than most professionals have .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You didn't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all.
Because if he isn't, he will never be.That's not true at all.
A lot of it comes down to how it's presented, and how the kid thinks.I used to be a math major and eventually I switched to CS.
I started finding the math classes to be so abstract and pointless, around the time of multivariable calculus and linear algebra.
Now, nine years later, I'm reading two linear algebra books because I already have my reasons -- I'm going to be taking a course on parallel computing and there are applications for linear algebra in audio that I never knew of before.One of the two linear algebra books is an old school math book, very dense in topics covered but loath to present examples much less applications of the subjects.
The other book is a little too friendly (and has that awkward transitional trying-to-include-the-internet thing), but it explains things well and by the end of the first chapter it had already shown me practical applications of linear algebra that I'd never heard of -- despite not even getting to the point of talking about matrices.
The first book is exactly why I lost interest in being a math major, though I do have more appreciation for the story-like quality of how the various abstract things intertwine.Few people become interested in writing software simply for the sake of writing software -- they go into it because they imagine all the things they can make with it.
If you teach someone a programming language by having them work on things that don't do anything they care about, they most likely will not develop an interest in software.
  Another option -- an underrated option, I think -- is to find fields of logic that they'd think are interesting, which most likely would be under the heading of discrete math.
Starting them off with things like riddles that are really logic puzzles is a great way to get someone interested in thinking about logic, which leads to specific issues of data and algorithms.
Those puzzles may have more appeal than "Hello world", and the kid would come to software (assuming he does) with a much better understanding of the basics than most professionals have.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566394</id>
	<title>Teach him right...</title>
	<author>meburke</author>
	<datestamp>1261915740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>OK, "right" is an opinionated position and YMMV. However, after 48 years of being a programmer, I still find discouragingly few programmers who can design a program beyond the basic forms and business arithmetic or solve problems creatively.</p><p>Get him a copy of the "The Little Lisper" or "The Little Schemer", get him a robotics kit like the LEGO system, find him some Turtle application that works interactively on his computer, get him some sort of logic controller kit (like for home automation) and focus on the areas where he has an actual interest. In a couple of years he'll be a better programmer than you are! <a href="http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html" title="paulgraham.com">http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html</a> [paulgraham.com] If you both have a common interest in something like games or graphics, working on a project together builds competence. The free Robotics kit from Microsoft is worth checking out.</p><p>BTW, it's interesting how the skills I learned trying to program logic gates (back in the "Tube" era, transitioning to transitors) are now so useful in developing nanotechnology, MEMS, and biologics. See if you can get him interested in the basics. He might even like assembly language because of the high degree of control and obvious cause-and-effect relationships. The transition from Assembly to C was very easy for me.</p><p>Good luck.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>OK , " right " is an opinionated position and YMMV .
However , after 48 years of being a programmer , I still find discouragingly few programmers who can design a program beyond the basic forms and business arithmetic or solve problems creatively.Get him a copy of the " The Little Lisper " or " The Little Schemer " , get him a robotics kit like the LEGO system , find him some Turtle application that works interactively on his computer , get him some sort of logic controller kit ( like for home automation ) and focus on the areas where he has an actual interest .
In a couple of years he 'll be a better programmer than you are !
http : //www.paulgraham.com/avg.html [ paulgraham.com ] If you both have a common interest in something like games or graphics , working on a project together builds competence .
The free Robotics kit from Microsoft is worth checking out.BTW , it 's interesting how the skills I learned trying to program logic gates ( back in the " Tube " era , transitioning to transitors ) are now so useful in developing nanotechnology , MEMS , and biologics .
See if you can get him interested in the basics .
He might even like assembly language because of the high degree of control and obvious cause-and-effect relationships .
The transition from Assembly to C was very easy for me.Good luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>OK, "right" is an opinionated position and YMMV.
However, after 48 years of being a programmer, I still find discouragingly few programmers who can design a program beyond the basic forms and business arithmetic or solve problems creatively.Get him a copy of the "The Little Lisper" or "The Little Schemer", get him a robotics kit like the LEGO system, find him some Turtle application that works interactively on his computer, get him some sort of logic controller kit (like for home automation) and focus on the areas where he has an actual interest.
In a couple of years he'll be a better programmer than you are!
http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html [paulgraham.com] If you both have a common interest in something like games or graphics, working on a project together builds competence.
The free Robotics kit from Microsoft is worth checking out.BTW, it's interesting how the skills I learned trying to program logic gates (back in the "Tube" era, transitioning to transitors) are now so useful in developing nanotechnology, MEMS, and biologics.
See if you can get him interested in the basics.
He might even like assembly language because of the high degree of control and obvious cause-and-effect relationships.
The transition from Assembly to C was very easy for me.Good luck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565704</id>
	<title>Start low, build up</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261909680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>6502 or Z80 Assembly to start.<br>68000 Assembly (luxury in comparison) to follow.</p><p>By the time they get to high level languages, they'll actually have a clue how it all works underneath, how to write safe code, how to conserve system resources, and a host of other things - many of which translate directly into C programming practice...</p><p>Of course, your kilometerage may vary....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>6502 or Z80 Assembly to start.68000 Assembly ( luxury in comparison ) to follow.By the time they get to high level languages , they 'll actually have a clue how it all works underneath , how to write safe code , how to conserve system resources , and a host of other things - many of which translate directly into C programming practice...Of course , your kilometerage may vary... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>6502 or Z80 Assembly to start.68000 Assembly (luxury in comparison) to follow.By the time they get to high level languages, they'll actually have a clue how it all works underneath, how to write safe code, how to conserve system resources, and a host of other things - many of which translate directly into C programming practice...Of course, your kilometerage may vary....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30573920</id>
	<title>Kodu</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262029140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I recommend looking into Kodu, a visual programming environment from Microsoft Research tailored for game development (disclaimer, I'm a dev on the Kodu team). Kodu uses a visual programming language, and is a very gentle introduction to progamming using only the xbox controller for input. It's free for the PC, and a $5 download from the Indie Games Channel on Xbox. Here's the project page: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/kodu/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I recommend looking into Kodu , a visual programming environment from Microsoft Research tailored for game development ( disclaimer , I 'm a dev on the Kodu team ) .
Kodu uses a visual programming language , and is a very gentle introduction to progamming using only the xbox controller for input .
It 's free for the PC , and a $ 5 download from the Indie Games Channel on Xbox .
Here 's the project page : http : //research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/kodu/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I recommend looking into Kodu, a visual programming environment from Microsoft Research tailored for game development (disclaimer, I'm a dev on the Kodu team).
Kodu uses a visual programming language, and is a very gentle introduction to progamming using only the xbox controller for input.
It's free for the PC, and a $5 download from the Indie Games Channel on Xbox.
Here's the project page: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/kodu/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571504</id>
	<title>Java -- That'll Keep Him Out of the Biz</title>
	<author>Baldrson</author>
	<datestamp>1262018040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Probably the best thing you can do for the kid is to have him start with Java.</p><p>That way he won't be tempted to become a programmer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Probably the best thing you can do for the kid is to have him start with Java.That way he wo n't be tempted to become a programmer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Probably the best thing you can do for the kid is to have him start with Java.That way he won't be tempted to become a programmer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570202</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>NailerNforce</author>
	<datestamp>1262010240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"You didn't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all. Because if he isn't, he will never be."



This is a lie.



I wasn't interested at age 12. I became interested after I started studying it at age 19.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" You did n't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all .
Because if he is n't , he will never be .
" This is a lie .
I was n't interested at age 12 .
I became interested after I started studying it at age 19 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"You didn't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all.
Because if he isn't, he will never be.
"



This is a lie.
I wasn't interested at age 12.
I became interested after I started studying it at age 19.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566604</id>
	<title>Scratch!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261917540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Scratch (by MIT, http://scratch.mit.edu) teaches the basic concepts of programming in an easy way without going into specifics of traditional languages. It even has easy to use external controllers available.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Scratch ( by MIT , http : //scratch.mit.edu ) teaches the basic concepts of programming in an easy way without going into specifics of traditional languages .
It even has easy to use external controllers available .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Scratch (by MIT, http://scratch.mit.edu) teaches the basic concepts of programming in an easy way without going into specifics of traditional languages.
It even has easy to use external controllers available.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565266</id>
	<title>C, Scheme or iPhone</title>
	<author>drdrgivemethenews</author>
	<datestamp>1261906320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>C and Scheme are the "closest to the metal", meaning that they're the purest expressions of procedural and functional programming.  He'll be most likely to learn good programming habits using those. But he pretty much needs to be interested in programming for its own sake to succeed with them.<br> <br>

If he wants to do games, just bite the conceptual bullet, get an account for developing iPhone apps and let him use it.  Or try out Android.  Give him as much help as you can, but don't sweat getting him the answer for every question.  Teach from your expertise, which is knowledge of general principles.  He'll be teaching you the gory details in six months.<br> <br>

-------<br> <br>

Theory blazes the trail, but it can't pave the road</htmltext>
<tokenext>C and Scheme are the " closest to the metal " , meaning that they 're the purest expressions of procedural and functional programming .
He 'll be most likely to learn good programming habits using those .
But he pretty much needs to be interested in programming for its own sake to succeed with them .
If he wants to do games , just bite the conceptual bullet , get an account for developing iPhone apps and let him use it .
Or try out Android .
Give him as much help as you can , but do n't sweat getting him the answer for every question .
Teach from your expertise , which is knowledge of general principles .
He 'll be teaching you the gory details in six months .
------- Theory blazes the trail , but it ca n't pave the road</tokentext>
<sentencetext>C and Scheme are the "closest to the metal", meaning that they're the purest expressions of procedural and functional programming.
He'll be most likely to learn good programming habits using those.
But he pretty much needs to be interested in programming for its own sake to succeed with them.
If he wants to do games, just bite the conceptual bullet, get an account for developing iPhone apps and let him use it.
Or try out Android.
Give him as much help as you can, but don't sweat getting him the answer for every question.
Teach from your expertise, which is knowledge of general principles.
He'll be teaching you the gory details in six months.
------- 

Theory blazes the trail, but it can't pave the road</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566746</id>
	<title>Oblig Yoda quote:</title>
	<author>Kvasio</author>
	<datestamp>1261918920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>YODA: He is too old. Yes, too old to begin the training</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>YODA : He is too old .
Yes , too old to begin the training</tokentext>
<sentencetext>YODA: He is too old.
Yes, too old to begin the training</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30572232</id>
	<title>Only things I can recommend are:</title>
	<author>dwiget001</author>
	<datestamp>1262021700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1. Teach the kid HTML first (Teach Yourself HTML in a Weekend book).<br>2. Then, teach him JavaScript. A number of good basic books on it in stores and libraries, plus a lot of online resources. It gives some programming basics, but removes the overhead of a compiled language.<br>3. From there, with a little bit of work on how a computer handles memory and executes programs, teach him C.</p><p>Note: The above is route I taught myself to program in C (eventually) and then C++ and Java. HTML did not take long at all, and I found it useful later on for other things I wanted to do in or with web pages/sites. A gradient approach, yes even the gradient approach of typing in HTML in a formatted and easy-to-read way, pays off when you then have to write C or other code.</p><p>Caution: After I learned HTML and JavaScript, I took a stab at Java, that was too much of a leap at the time, I got good enough in Java to create endless exception errors, yeah! However, I then moved to C and that was an easier transition. Once C was done, I then tackled C++ and eventually got back to Java. I tell you, having C under my belt when I went back to Java helped a lot, despite the differences in the language and how Java operates (virtual machine) compared to close-to-bare-metal C.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
Teach the kid HTML first ( Teach Yourself HTML in a Weekend book ) .2 .
Then , teach him JavaScript .
A number of good basic books on it in stores and libraries , plus a lot of online resources .
It gives some programming basics , but removes the overhead of a compiled language.3 .
From there , with a little bit of work on how a computer handles memory and executes programs , teach him C.Note : The above is route I taught myself to program in C ( eventually ) and then C + + and Java .
HTML did not take long at all , and I found it useful later on for other things I wanted to do in or with web pages/sites .
A gradient approach , yes even the gradient approach of typing in HTML in a formatted and easy-to-read way , pays off when you then have to write C or other code.Caution : After I learned HTML and JavaScript , I took a stab at Java , that was too much of a leap at the time , I got good enough in Java to create endless exception errors , yeah !
However , I then moved to C and that was an easier transition .
Once C was done , I then tackled C + + and eventually got back to Java .
I tell you , having C under my belt when I went back to Java helped a lot , despite the differences in the language and how Java operates ( virtual machine ) compared to close-to-bare-metal C .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
Teach the kid HTML first (Teach Yourself HTML in a Weekend book).2.
Then, teach him JavaScript.
A number of good basic books on it in stores and libraries, plus a lot of online resources.
It gives some programming basics, but removes the overhead of a compiled language.3.
From there, with a little bit of work on how a computer handles memory and executes programs, teach him C.Note: The above is route I taught myself to program in C (eventually) and then C++ and Java.
HTML did not take long at all, and I found it useful later on for other things I wanted to do in or with web pages/sites.
A gradient approach, yes even the gradient approach of typing in HTML in a formatted and easy-to-read way, pays off when you then have to write C or other code.Caution: After I learned HTML and JavaScript, I took a stab at Java, that was too much of a leap at the time, I got good enough in Java to create endless exception errors, yeah!
However, I then moved to C and that was an easier transition.
Once C was done, I then tackled C++ and eventually got back to Java.
I tell you, having C under my belt when I went back to Java helped a lot, despite the differences in the language and how Java operates (virtual machine) compared to close-to-bare-metal C.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570996</id>
	<title>Other Suggestions</title>
	<author>AP31R0N</author>
	<datestamp>1262015340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you want your kid to be happy and generally successful in general have him learn:</p><p>1) An instrument - Guitar or maybe piano.  Something that will get him laid, something cool.  Singing counts.</p><p>2) A foreign language - Anything but Mexican.</p><p>3) A martial art - ideally a -itsu, rather than a -do.  Itsus are combat systems, dos are sports.  Do will do in a pinch, but an itsu is more about taking the fight out of someone than scoring honorable points.</p><p>4) Financial management - Start with Monopoly. Teach him accounting, how to calculate interest and all that crap.  Have him run a tiny kid business.  There's a kid's version of the Cashflow game.</p><p>5) Dance - Let your son be the one straight guy who can dance.</p><p>6) Cooking - A great chance to show class.</p><p>7) Etiquette - Not which fork goes where, but not to offer his hand to a lady.</p><p>8) Flirting - This is a skill that can be learned.  Also, teach him that girls come and go, that a kiss isn't a life long binding contract.</p><p>9) Fitness - A sport will suffice but the more important lesson is to stay fit.  Start the habit early.</p><p>10) Leadership - Not sure how to teach this... but learning how to be a leader is a great asset for all aspects of life.  Dudes will respect him, chicks will want him.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you want your kid to be happy and generally successful in general have him learn : 1 ) An instrument - Guitar or maybe piano .
Something that will get him laid , something cool .
Singing counts.2 ) A foreign language - Anything but Mexican.3 ) A martial art - ideally a -itsu , rather than a -do .
Itsus are combat systems , dos are sports .
Do will do in a pinch , but an itsu is more about taking the fight out of someone than scoring honorable points.4 ) Financial management - Start with Monopoly .
Teach him accounting , how to calculate interest and all that crap .
Have him run a tiny kid business .
There 's a kid 's version of the Cashflow game.5 ) Dance - Let your son be the one straight guy who can dance.6 ) Cooking - A great chance to show class.7 ) Etiquette - Not which fork goes where , but not to offer his hand to a lady.8 ) Flirting - This is a skill that can be learned .
Also , teach him that girls come and go , that a kiss is n't a life long binding contract.9 ) Fitness - A sport will suffice but the more important lesson is to stay fit .
Start the habit early.10 ) Leadership - Not sure how to teach this... but learning how to be a leader is a great asset for all aspects of life .
Dudes will respect him , chicks will want him .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you want your kid to be happy and generally successful in general have him learn:1) An instrument - Guitar or maybe piano.
Something that will get him laid, something cool.
Singing counts.2) A foreign language - Anything but Mexican.3) A martial art - ideally a -itsu, rather than a -do.
Itsus are combat systems, dos are sports.
Do will do in a pinch, but an itsu is more about taking the fight out of someone than scoring honorable points.4) Financial management - Start with Monopoly.
Teach him accounting, how to calculate interest and all that crap.
Have him run a tiny kid business.
There's a kid's version of the Cashflow game.5) Dance - Let your son be the one straight guy who can dance.6) Cooking - A great chance to show class.7) Etiquette - Not which fork goes where, but not to offer his hand to a lady.8) Flirting - This is a skill that can be learned.
Also, teach him that girls come and go, that a kiss isn't a life long binding contract.9) Fitness - A sport will suffice but the more important lesson is to stay fit.
Start the habit early.10) Leadership - Not sure how to teach this... but learning how to be a leader is a great asset for all aspects of life.
Dudes will respect him, chicks will want him.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568100</id>
	<title>Start him off with Python.</title>
	<author>iammisc</author>
	<datestamp>1261932180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Having first started programming in the second grade (completely self-taught), I remember first starting off with BASIC. However, since that's not really around anymore and there's no real equivalent, I'd recommend python simply because it doesn't require you to initialize variables, the indented syntax is extremely intuitive, and most of the operation are easily understandable.

Start him off with simple console apps, like an adventure game, and then move into trying to imitate other apps, at which point he will almost definitely want to start pursuing more low-level languages like C.

For me, I went from BASIC directly to C and then from C to python. The transition from BASIC to C was really difficult due to the many differences but it goes to show you that no matter what you start off on, you'll do fine.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Having first started programming in the second grade ( completely self-taught ) , I remember first starting off with BASIC .
However , since that 's not really around anymore and there 's no real equivalent , I 'd recommend python simply because it does n't require you to initialize variables , the indented syntax is extremely intuitive , and most of the operation are easily understandable .
Start him off with simple console apps , like an adventure game , and then move into trying to imitate other apps , at which point he will almost definitely want to start pursuing more low-level languages like C . For me , I went from BASIC directly to C and then from C to python .
The transition from BASIC to C was really difficult due to the many differences but it goes to show you that no matter what you start off on , you 'll do fine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having first started programming in the second grade (completely self-taught), I remember first starting off with BASIC.
However, since that's not really around anymore and there's no real equivalent, I'd recommend python simply because it doesn't require you to initialize variables, the indented syntax is extremely intuitive, and most of the operation are easily understandable.
Start him off with simple console apps, like an adventure game, and then move into trying to imitate other apps, at which point he will almost definitely want to start pursuing more low-level languages like C.

For me, I went from BASIC directly to C and then from C to python.
The transition from BASIC to C was really difficult due to the many differences but it goes to show you that no matter what you start off on, you'll do fine.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565422</id>
	<title>Lego Mindstorms</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261907400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>It must be fun, otherwise he won't continue doing it. And building robots and making them do things is fun. But there is of course a price to pay - literally.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It must be fun , otherwise he wo n't continue doing it .
And building robots and making them do things is fun .
But there is of course a price to pay - literally .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It must be fun, otherwise he won't continue doing it.
And building robots and making them do things is fun.
But there is of course a price to pay - literally.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565532</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>fermion</author>
	<datestamp>1261908360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In addition to the languages, it is also a question of what one wishes to teach.  For instance, the current fad in programming is object oriented, so teaching these concepts can be very important.  Alice out of carnegie mellon teaches kids to solve problems from such a perspective.    It is actually quite similar to Visual Basic.  In both cases, if a child can be taught to abstract physical concepts, for example that one can develop a basic leg that can be used for all animals with legs, then an important skill has been rendered.  The thing with Alice is that the abstraction is age appropriate.
<p>
Another concept that is important when teaching the 12-14 year old to program is that of a variable.  I saw my classmates in college struggle with this concept and I felt lucky to have learned it a young age through programming.  For this more traditional languages, such as BASIC, C, and FORTRAN are useful.  The control loop with variables are very instructive.  Even simple a simple swap is can teach a person important skills</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In addition to the languages , it is also a question of what one wishes to teach .
For instance , the current fad in programming is object oriented , so teaching these concepts can be very important .
Alice out of carnegie mellon teaches kids to solve problems from such a perspective .
It is actually quite similar to Visual Basic .
In both cases , if a child can be taught to abstract physical concepts , for example that one can develop a basic leg that can be used for all animals with legs , then an important skill has been rendered .
The thing with Alice is that the abstraction is age appropriate .
Another concept that is important when teaching the 12-14 year old to program is that of a variable .
I saw my classmates in college struggle with this concept and I felt lucky to have learned it a young age through programming .
For this more traditional languages , such as BASIC , C , and FORTRAN are useful .
The control loop with variables are very instructive .
Even simple a simple swap is can teach a person important skills</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In addition to the languages, it is also a question of what one wishes to teach.
For instance, the current fad in programming is object oriented, so teaching these concepts can be very important.
Alice out of carnegie mellon teaches kids to solve problems from such a perspective.
It is actually quite similar to Visual Basic.
In both cases, if a child can be taught to abstract physical concepts, for example that one can develop a basic leg that can be used for all animals with legs, then an important skill has been rendered.
The thing with Alice is that the abstraction is age appropriate.
Another concept that is important when teaching the 12-14 year old to program is that of a variable.
I saw my classmates in college struggle with this concept and I felt lucky to have learned it a young age through programming.
For this more traditional languages, such as BASIC, C, and FORTRAN are useful.
The control loop with variables are very instructive.
Even simple a simple swap is can teach a person important skills</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30574314</id>
	<title>The Little Schemer</title>
	<author>binq</author>
	<datestamp>1262030940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Have him read: The Little Schemer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Have him read : The Little Schemer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have him read: The Little Schemer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567360</id>
	<title>Re:Not BASIC! NOooooooo!!</title>
	<author>shutdown -p now</author>
	<datestamp>1261924200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Dijkstra said that when BASIC required labeling every source code line with a number, and its only flow control statement was a single-line "IF<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... THEN GOTO<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..." - which rather explains the reason for such an opinion. Of course, BASIC hadn't been like that for almost 30 years now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Dijkstra said that when BASIC required labeling every source code line with a number , and its only flow control statement was a single-line " IF ... THEN GOTO ... " - which rather explains the reason for such an opinion .
Of course , BASIC had n't been like that for almost 30 years now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dijkstra said that when BASIC required labeling every source code line with a number, and its only flow control statement was a single-line "IF ... THEN GOTO ..." - which rather explains the reason for such an opinion.
Of course, BASIC hadn't been like that for almost 30 years now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566656</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566114</id>
	<title>Python ... or Smalltalk</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261913160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I really think that Python is one of the most elegant languages out there for teaching (and for general use).  It also has the added benefit of being able to teach several different programming styles simply as it intuitively combines functional programming, iterative programing, and object oriented techniques.  It also has a large, active community supporting it and would allow your brother to do something cool pretty quickly.  The downfall of starting with a language like that is that other languages will seem very clunky and difficult.</p><p>That being said, I do think there is something to be said for learning a language like smalltalk.  Possibly not as the first language, and not as a language for general use.  But it does teach a completely different way of thinking about how to program.  I think that the introducing different ways of thinking to a young programmer is really important.  Otherwise it can be much more difficult to grasp those concepts once you have stuck to programming style for a long period of time.  Trying to teach myself OO techniques after learning C, or rather C++ without OO, was a complicated process.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I really think that Python is one of the most elegant languages out there for teaching ( and for general use ) .
It also has the added benefit of being able to teach several different programming styles simply as it intuitively combines functional programming , iterative programing , and object oriented techniques .
It also has a large , active community supporting it and would allow your brother to do something cool pretty quickly .
The downfall of starting with a language like that is that other languages will seem very clunky and difficult.That being said , I do think there is something to be said for learning a language like smalltalk .
Possibly not as the first language , and not as a language for general use .
But it does teach a completely different way of thinking about how to program .
I think that the introducing different ways of thinking to a young programmer is really important .
Otherwise it can be much more difficult to grasp those concepts once you have stuck to programming style for a long period of time .
Trying to teach myself OO techniques after learning C , or rather C + + without OO , was a complicated process .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I really think that Python is one of the most elegant languages out there for teaching (and for general use).
It also has the added benefit of being able to teach several different programming styles simply as it intuitively combines functional programming, iterative programing, and object oriented techniques.
It also has a large, active community supporting it and would allow your brother to do something cool pretty quickly.
The downfall of starting with a language like that is that other languages will seem very clunky and difficult.That being said, I do think there is something to be said for learning a language like smalltalk.
Possibly not as the first language, and not as a language for general use.
But it does teach a completely different way of thinking about how to program.
I think that the introducing different ways of thinking to a young programmer is really important.
Otherwise it can be much more difficult to grasp those concepts once you have stuck to programming style for a long period of time.
Trying to teach myself OO techniques after learning C, or rather C++ without OO, was a complicated process.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567660</id>
	<title>Hornetseye</title>
	<author>cellurl</author>
	<datestamp>1261927140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Teach him something fun like Hornetseye.<br>
Its like VB, but for images.<br> <br>

I told my 12 year old that if he helped me make a Hornetseye app for a QUIZ, I would take him to Legoland.<br>
We had a great trip!<br> <br>

<a href="http://benedicts.webs.com/howtobuildawallthing.htm" title="webs.com" rel="nofollow">Here is what we built</a> [webs.com]

<br> <br>
-jim<br>

<a href="http://www.wikispeedia.org/" title="wikispeedia.org" rel="nofollow">Get paid to drive around, maybe</a> [wikispeedia.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Teach him something fun like Hornetseye .
Its like VB , but for images .
I told my 12 year old that if he helped me make a Hornetseye app for a QUIZ , I would take him to Legoland .
We had a great trip !
Here is what we built [ webs.com ] -jim Get paid to drive around , maybe [ wikispeedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Teach him something fun like Hornetseye.
Its like VB, but for images.
I told my 12 year old that if he helped me make a Hornetseye app for a QUIZ, I would take him to Legoland.
We had a great trip!
Here is what we built [webs.com]

 
-jim

Get paid to drive around, maybe [wikispeedia.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30573756</id>
	<title>Re:Python + a Logo-inspired module = cool!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262028240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Have a look here:</p><p>http://www.archive.org/details/IntroductionToPythonUsingTurtleGraphics</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Have a look here : http : //www.archive.org/details/IntroductionToPythonUsingTurtleGraphics</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have a look here:http://www.archive.org/details/IntroductionToPythonUsingTurtleGraphics</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565118</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571250</id>
	<title>Re:ALICE from CMU</title>
	<author>udittmer</author>
	<datestamp>1262016720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>+1. <a href="http://www.alice.org/kelleher/storytelling/" title="alice.org" rel="nofollow">Storytelling Alice</a> [alice.org] might be more age-appropriate -if not gender-appropriate- though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>+ 1 .
Storytelling Alice [ alice.org ] might be more age-appropriate -if not gender-appropriate- though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>+1.
Storytelling Alice [alice.org] might be more age-appropriate -if not gender-appropriate- though.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571418</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Norwell Bob</author>
	<datestamp>1262017620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Having made the same mistake with my oldest, I wish I had mod points for this guy.  He is correct.  Nurture that which your child is interested in... don't force him into things he has no desire to do.  Guess what, maybe you're a coding geek and your son is going to be a football hero.  Maybe you're a nuclear physicist, and your son is going to be a used car salesman.  There's nothing wrong with any of that, as long as you bring him up correctly... with ethics, morals, respect for others, and ambition.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Having made the same mistake with my oldest , I wish I had mod points for this guy .
He is correct .
Nurture that which your child is interested in... do n't force him into things he has no desire to do .
Guess what , maybe you 're a coding geek and your son is going to be a football hero .
Maybe you 're a nuclear physicist , and your son is going to be a used car salesman .
There 's nothing wrong with any of that , as long as you bring him up correctly... with ethics , morals , respect for others , and ambition .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having made the same mistake with my oldest, I wish I had mod points for this guy.
He is correct.
Nurture that which your child is interested in... don't force him into things he has no desire to do.
Guess what, maybe you're a coding geek and your son is going to be a football hero.
Maybe you're a nuclear physicist, and your son is going to be a used car salesman.
There's nothing wrong with any of that, as long as you bring him up correctly... with ethics, morals, respect for others, and ambition.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566522</id>
	<title>erm... bash?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261916880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>why not bash? it's easy to see the results and will give you a good lead in to python...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>why not bash ?
it 's easy to see the results and will give you a good lead in to python.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>why not bash?
it's easy to see the results and will give you a good lead in to python...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565746</id>
	<title>Re:Python</title>
	<author>thetoadwarrior</author>
	<datestamp>1261910040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That would be awful for Python. Python doesn't use curly brackets but instead uses whitespace. You can't tab in ideone because it's a textarea in the browser.
<br> <br>
Sure you can C&amp;P into ideone but what's the point? I'm not sure if the standard Python distro comes with it but installing the active state python distor which has Python Win. <a href="http://www.activestate.com/activepython/" title="activestate.com">http://www.activestate.com/activepython/</a> [activestate.com]
<br> <br>
It's basically Notepad with the interactive Python shell so you can open it and just type code and watch what it would do (same as typing python in a command prompt) or write a whole script, save and run it. It's very lightweight and doesn't really hold you hand.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That would be awful for Python .
Python does n't use curly brackets but instead uses whitespace .
You ca n't tab in ideone because it 's a textarea in the browser .
Sure you can C&amp;P into ideone but what 's the point ?
I 'm not sure if the standard Python distro comes with it but installing the active state python distor which has Python Win .
http : //www.activestate.com/activepython/ [ activestate.com ] It 's basically Notepad with the interactive Python shell so you can open it and just type code and watch what it would do ( same as typing python in a command prompt ) or write a whole script , save and run it .
It 's very lightweight and does n't really hold you hand .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That would be awful for Python.
Python doesn't use curly brackets but instead uses whitespace.
You can't tab in ideone because it's a textarea in the browser.
Sure you can C&amp;P into ideone but what's the point?
I'm not sure if the standard Python distro comes with it but installing the active state python distor which has Python Win.
http://www.activestate.com/activepython/ [activestate.com]
 
It's basically Notepad with the interactive Python shell so you can open it and just type code and watch what it would do (same as typing python in a command prompt) or write a whole script, save and run it.
It's very lightweight and doesn't really hold you hand.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567620</id>
	<title>Re:plain C, python, or ruby</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261926720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Perhaps but you need to know something else other than a language.  You need to *KNOW THE SYSTEM*.  C does that.  You need to know it to use it properly.  Ignore the system to your own downfall.  There is a reason the teach you the hard way to do things in math first.  It is so you understand that the 'easy' ways do help you.</p><p>Many have suggested Python.  It has some nasty little side effects for a first time programmer.  Take the python statment x=[1,3,4,[99,123]].  Do that in another language.  You will need to relearn how to do things.  C is so low level you understand that statement does quite a bit.  Pushed into another language (which many programmers are, repeatedly) you may end up way over your head.  My point?  You want a language where when you jump to another one you are not totally over your head.  Pascal/C/Java/Python are very good suggestions.  But 1 or more would not be a bad idea with an eye on the underlying systems they are built on.  You need to understand what a language does to the computer in order to be any good at it.</p><p>Writing 'good looking' code is just a matter of being consistent about the way you write and doing it in a way that communicates to a computer and a person at the same time.  I have seen crap code in just about all languages.  I have also seen works of art.  Pascal didnt teach me that.  15 years of fixing other peoples and my own code did.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Perhaps but you need to know something else other than a language .
You need to * KNOW THE SYSTEM * .
C does that .
You need to know it to use it properly .
Ignore the system to your own downfall .
There is a reason the teach you the hard way to do things in math first .
It is so you understand that the 'easy ' ways do help you.Many have suggested Python .
It has some nasty little side effects for a first time programmer .
Take the python statment x = [ 1,3,4 , [ 99,123 ] ] .
Do that in another language .
You will need to relearn how to do things .
C is so low level you understand that statement does quite a bit .
Pushed into another language ( which many programmers are , repeatedly ) you may end up way over your head .
My point ?
You want a language where when you jump to another one you are not totally over your head .
Pascal/C/Java/Python are very good suggestions .
But 1 or more would not be a bad idea with an eye on the underlying systems they are built on .
You need to understand what a language does to the computer in order to be any good at it.Writing 'good looking ' code is just a matter of being consistent about the way you write and doing it in a way that communicates to a computer and a person at the same time .
I have seen crap code in just about all languages .
I have also seen works of art .
Pascal didnt teach me that .
15 years of fixing other peoples and my own code did .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perhaps but you need to know something else other than a language.
You need to *KNOW THE SYSTEM*.
C does that.
You need to know it to use it properly.
Ignore the system to your own downfall.
There is a reason the teach you the hard way to do things in math first.
It is so you understand that the 'easy' ways do help you.Many have suggested Python.
It has some nasty little side effects for a first time programmer.
Take the python statment x=[1,3,4,[99,123]].
Do that in another language.
You will need to relearn how to do things.
C is so low level you understand that statement does quite a bit.
Pushed into another language (which many programmers are, repeatedly) you may end up way over your head.
My point?
You want a language where when you jump to another one you are not totally over your head.
Pascal/C/Java/Python are very good suggestions.
But 1 or more would not be a bad idea with an eye on the underlying systems they are built on.
You need to understand what a language does to the computer in order to be any good at it.Writing 'good looking' code is just a matter of being consistent about the way you write and doing it in a way that communicates to a computer and a person at the same time.
I have seen crap code in just about all languages.
I have also seen works of art.
Pascal didnt teach me that.
15 years of fixing other peoples and my own code did.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565096</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568966</id>
	<title>Arthur</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262032740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You might want to check out this:<br>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackety\_Hack</p><p>It is a Ruby environment aimed at the beginners, specially teens, with tutorials and such.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You might want to check out this : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackety \ _HackIt is a Ruby environment aimed at the beginners , specially teens , with tutorials and such .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You might want to check out this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackety\_HackIt is a Ruby environment aimed at the beginners, specially teens, with tutorials and such.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567394</id>
	<title>Have a look at BlueJ</title>
	<author>crowne</author>
	<datestamp>1261924500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Have a look at BlueJ <a href="http://www.bluej.org/" title="bluej.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.bluej.org/</a> [bluej.org]

I think that java is a great language to learn programming and being based on C-style syntax, the transitions to C should be fairly smooth.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Have a look at BlueJ http : //www.bluej.org/ [ bluej.org ] I think that java is a great language to learn programming and being based on C-style syntax , the transitions to C should be fairly smooth .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have a look at BlueJ http://www.bluej.org/ [bluej.org]

I think that java is a great language to learn programming and being based on C-style syntax, the transitions to C should be fairly smooth.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570638</id>
	<title>Python+pygame</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262013300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The instant gratification part is the really important bit if you want to keep his interest up.</p></div><p>That is part of the problem with children today. They want instant gratification and are unwilling to put forth the effort and time necessary to learn proper practices. If BASIC was good enough for me, it sure as Hell is good enough for the children of today. Most of the IT people I have worked with during the last decade cannot programme something as trivial as "Hello, World!" in any language.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The instant gratification part is the really important bit if you want to keep his interest up.That is part of the problem with children today .
They want instant gratification and are unwilling to put forth the effort and time necessary to learn proper practices .
If BASIC was good enough for me , it sure as Hell is good enough for the children of today .
Most of the IT people I have worked with during the last decade can not programme something as trivial as " Hello , World !
" in any language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The instant gratification part is the really important bit if you want to keep his interest up.That is part of the problem with children today.
They want instant gratification and are unwilling to put forth the effort and time necessary to learn proper practices.
If BASIC was good enough for me, it sure as Hell is good enough for the children of today.
Most of the IT people I have worked with during the last decade cannot programme something as trivial as "Hello, World!
" in any language.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564924</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30579374</id>
	<title>How about</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262023980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>assembler<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>assembler : P</tokentext>
<sentencetext>assembler :P</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569222</id>
	<title>Lyesmith</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261993140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>hmm, if he is 12 I think I would start with Actionscript 3. That is not a real programming language but the best tool to learn the basic principals of OO programming and in the same time it is fun for a 12 yer old. He can get visual results really fast.  In a month he can start making games, there is a couple of extensive 3D library where he can understand the basics of 3D. There is also a sense of framwork and SDK-s. Use text editor and CLI so he understands the idea of toolchain. The syntax is ECMA which is C like enough so later most of the language syntaxes will be familliar. He can make desktop applications with AIR, learn about SQL databases, filesystems. And there is a clear path towards web development, java, javascript, databases etc</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>hmm , if he is 12 I think I would start with Actionscript 3 .
That is not a real programming language but the best tool to learn the basic principals of OO programming and in the same time it is fun for a 12 yer old .
He can get visual results really fast .
In a month he can start making games , there is a couple of extensive 3D library where he can understand the basics of 3D .
There is also a sense of framwork and SDK-s. Use text editor and CLI so he understands the idea of toolchain .
The syntax is ECMA which is C like enough so later most of the language syntaxes will be familliar .
He can make desktop applications with AIR , learn about SQL databases , filesystems .
And there is a clear path towards web development , java , javascript , databases etc</tokentext>
<sentencetext>hmm, if he is 12 I think I would start with Actionscript 3.
That is not a real programming language but the best tool to learn the basic principals of OO programming and in the same time it is fun for a 12 yer old.
He can get visual results really fast.
In a month he can start making games, there is a couple of extensive 3D library where he can understand the basics of 3D.
There is also a sense of framwork and SDK-s. Use text editor and CLI so he understands the idea of toolchain.
The syntax is ECMA which is C like enough so later most of the language syntaxes will be familliar.
He can make desktop applications with AIR, learn about SQL databases, filesystems.
And there is a clear path towards web development, java, javascript, databases etc</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569080</id>
	<title>Re:Python + a Logo-inspired module = cool!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261991160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The learning materials, third-party libraries, and support community are all still using Python 2.x predominantly and will be for a while yet, so 2.6 would be the least painful, most useful version of Python to learn with right now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The learning materials , third-party libraries , and support community are all still using Python 2.x predominantly and will be for a while yet , so 2.6 would be the least painful , most useful version of Python to learn with right now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The learning materials, third-party libraries, and support community are all still using Python 2.x predominantly and will be for a while yet, so 2.6 would be the least painful, most useful version of Python to learn with right now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565118</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565564</id>
	<title>Don't use a programming language</title>
	<author>Kjella</author>
	<datestamp>1261908660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd say starting off with any programming language, even the easy ones, is quite boring and it seems very far until you do anything "fun". I would use something like a scripable game, like say NWN2 or similar. Let him figure out the basics of variables, assignment, branching, looping and state from there and the result will be a little quests you can play. If and only if he's got interest in that I'd start him off with a real language. Pick something with a nice IDE so you don't have to know the standard library by heart, vi and emacs is so last century even with syntax highlighting. Then you can give him a bit more clues on memory management as appropriate for the language (RAII is vital to C++, for example), creating GUIs, read/write files and send/recieve over the network. That should cover most the basics, I'd leave databases alone unless he really wants to make something best driven by a database.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd say starting off with any programming language , even the easy ones , is quite boring and it seems very far until you do anything " fun " .
I would use something like a scripable game , like say NWN2 or similar .
Let him figure out the basics of variables , assignment , branching , looping and state from there and the result will be a little quests you can play .
If and only if he 's got interest in that I 'd start him off with a real language .
Pick something with a nice IDE so you do n't have to know the standard library by heart , vi and emacs is so last century even with syntax highlighting .
Then you can give him a bit more clues on memory management as appropriate for the language ( RAII is vital to C + + , for example ) , creating GUIs , read/write files and send/recieve over the network .
That should cover most the basics , I 'd leave databases alone unless he really wants to make something best driven by a database .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd say starting off with any programming language, even the easy ones, is quite boring and it seems very far until you do anything "fun".
I would use something like a scripable game, like say NWN2 or similar.
Let him figure out the basics of variables, assignment, branching, looping and state from there and the result will be a little quests you can play.
If and only if he's got interest in that I'd start him off with a real language.
Pick something with a nice IDE so you don't have to know the standard library by heart, vi and emacs is so last century even with syntax highlighting.
Then you can give him a bit more clues on memory management as appropriate for the language (RAII is vital to C++, for example), creating GUIs, read/write files and send/recieve over the network.
That should cover most the basics, I'd leave databases alone unless he really wants to make something best driven by a database.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567210</id>
	<title>Re:Perl</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261922820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh dear, now the python/perl war is invoked, it will go downhill in a handbasket quite nicely. oh my, this had been suh an interesting conversation up to this point. Now the perl divers and the snake charmers shall degrade the signal to noise level gradually until moderation sets in and the thread ends in frosty stares over moderator gags. sigh...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh dear , now the python/perl war is invoked , it will go downhill in a handbasket quite nicely .
oh my , this had been suh an interesting conversation up to this point .
Now the perl divers and the snake charmers shall degrade the signal to noise level gradually until moderation sets in and the thread ends in frosty stares over moderator gags .
sigh.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh dear, now the python/perl war is invoked, it will go downhill in a handbasket quite nicely.
oh my, this had been suh an interesting conversation up to this point.
Now the perl divers and the snake charmers shall degrade the signal to noise level gradually until moderation sets in and the thread ends in frosty stares over moderator gags.
sigh...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565002</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568332</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261935420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a teacher, I found simple problem solving steps should be taught first before moving to powerful languages. the concept of sequence, selection and loop and applying that knowledge to several of his home work should be taught.BASIC is the simplest way to start those problem solving steps. As  a bonus he can move to VB(even if we may not like) which uses BASIC under the hood. If he survives, moving to C will be easy in six steps to take care of the sequence, selection and loop. If he continues show interest he can take whatever language classes are given at his school. Adults way of learning programming is different from those of  children. Their decision making ability from the frontal lobe does not mature quickly to teach them all details about programming. Very carefully if you teach a child rest will be easy. Don't think what language use now. Languages change based on applications.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a teacher , I found simple problem solving steps should be taught first before moving to powerful languages .
the concept of sequence , selection and loop and applying that knowledge to several of his home work should be taught.BASIC is the simplest way to start those problem solving steps .
As a bonus he can move to VB ( even if we may not like ) which uses BASIC under the hood .
If he survives , moving to C will be easy in six steps to take care of the sequence , selection and loop .
If he continues show interest he can take whatever language classes are given at his school .
Adults way of learning programming is different from those of children .
Their decision making ability from the frontal lobe does not mature quickly to teach them all details about programming .
Very carefully if you teach a child rest will be easy .
Do n't think what language use now .
Languages change based on applications .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a teacher, I found simple problem solving steps should be taught first before moving to powerful languages.
the concept of sequence, selection and loop and applying that knowledge to several of his home work should be taught.BASIC is the simplest way to start those problem solving steps.
As  a bonus he can move to VB(even if we may not like) which uses BASIC under the hood.
If he survives, moving to C will be easy in six steps to take care of the sequence, selection and loop.
If he continues show interest he can take whatever language classes are given at his school.
Adults way of learning programming is different from those of  children.
Their decision making ability from the frontal lobe does not mature quickly to teach them all details about programming.
Very carefully if you teach a child rest will be easy.
Don't think what language use now.
Languages change based on applications.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566024</id>
	<title>Alice</title>
	<author>cadeon</author>
	<datestamp>1261912260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://alice.org/" title="alice.org" rel="nofollow">http://alice.org/</a> [alice.org]</p><p>Specifically designed to teach tweens how to program. Essentially is Java, but with instant, graphical results, which, as a few others have pointed out, is important to keep new learners interested.</p><p>My wife took a college course which used ALICE to introduce programming- if it worked for her, it will work for anyone.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //alice.org/ [ alice.org ] Specifically designed to teach tweens how to program .
Essentially is Java , but with instant , graphical results , which , as a few others have pointed out , is important to keep new learners interested.My wife took a college course which used ALICE to introduce programming- if it worked for her , it will work for anyone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://alice.org/ [alice.org]Specifically designed to teach tweens how to program.
Essentially is Java, but with instant, graphical results, which, as a few others have pointed out, is important to keep new learners interested.My wife took a college course which used ALICE to introduce programming- if it worked for her, it will work for anyone.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565892</id>
	<title>Try Scratch from MIT</title>
	<author>The Lurker King</author>
	<datestamp>1261911360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've recently been teaching my 12 year old twins how to program with Scratch from MIT.</p><p>http://scratch.mit.edu/</p><p>It's fun, there's lots of examples, and they seem to really enjoy it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've recently been teaching my 12 year old twins how to program with Scratch from MIT.http : //scratch.mit.edu/It 's fun , there 's lots of examples , and they seem to really enjoy it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've recently been teaching my 12 year old twins how to program with Scratch from MIT.http://scratch.mit.edu/It's fun, there's lots of examples, and they seem to really enjoy it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565762</id>
	<title>Tcl/Tk</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261910160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>With Tcl/Tk he'd be able to immediately start writing GUI programs, which may keep his interest more than just command-line stuff.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>With Tcl/Tk he 'd be able to immediately start writing GUI programs , which may keep his interest more than just command-line stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>With Tcl/Tk he'd be able to immediately start writing GUI programs, which may keep his interest more than just command-line stuff.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568420</id>
	<title>I recommend whatever your Brother is interested in</title>
	<author>sourICE</author>
	<datestamp>1261937160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am a self-taught programmer and I have been programming for over 12 years. I started my interest in programming when I was 12, but wouldn't consider myself into programming until I was 14.</p><p>When I was 12, I got a C++ programming book and went through it fairly quickly. My interest was in developing video games like Doom, Quake, etc. At the time I was young and lacked the knowledge or dedication to look into this any further and became attached to HTML/JavaScript, PHP and AS2/3 as a web developer and 2d/3d animator/modeler/artist.</p><p> <b>Slightly off-topic bg info:</b> <i>I actually went to school for Media Arts and Animation(Where I flunked out with 1 class to graduate due to financial issues and turned to programming permanently) and while I did take a couple minor programming courses based on AS2, I found that I already knew more than the teachers at my school on the subject from reading through the docs when I was 15-18 and ended up serving as a tutor in the classes(as I did in virtually all classes with nearly straight A's and still unable to graduate from final class, almost laughable if it hadn't cost so much) even though I would now consider my knowledge of AS2 at the time to be infantile. I should have expected as much since the school was dedicated to art students, many of whom could barely work a computer.</i> </p><p> <b>Back to the subject:</b> I think the best way to get a new person into programming would be to teach them the fundamentals of object oriented programming first and make sure that it is taught around something they are interested in. For example, if the noobie is interested in games I would suggest teaching them to program in <a href="http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/UDKProgrammingHome.html" title="epicgames.com" rel="nofollow">UnrealScript - Unreal Engine 3 - UDK</a> [epicgames.com] or <a href="http://creators.xna.com/en-us/news/xnagamestudio3.1" title="xna.com" rel="nofollow">XNA Game Studio 3.1</a> [xna.com]. If he is into 2d graphics and animation try AS3 or Silverlight(I do not really have experience with Silverlight past a few documentation glimpses and tutorials). If he just likes dealing with data try PHP/MySQL.</p><p>The important thing here is to make sure that he grasps the techniques needed to produce reliable, extend-able, clean and well documented object-oriented code. If he's really interested in programming he's probably already good with math and will pick up on the algebraic and geometrical side of things easily in school math classes and be able to relate them to the object-oriented ideas you have already instilled in him allowing him to be able to generate code producing quick visual results with any of the previously suggested packages. All of the languages I have suggested are extremely well documented.</p><p>I hope I have been helpful.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am a self-taught programmer and I have been programming for over 12 years .
I started my interest in programming when I was 12 , but would n't consider myself into programming until I was 14.When I was 12 , I got a C + + programming book and went through it fairly quickly .
My interest was in developing video games like Doom , Quake , etc .
At the time I was young and lacked the knowledge or dedication to look into this any further and became attached to HTML/JavaScript , PHP and AS2/3 as a web developer and 2d/3d animator/modeler/artist .
Slightly off-topic bg info : I actually went to school for Media Arts and Animation ( Where I flunked out with 1 class to graduate due to financial issues and turned to programming permanently ) and while I did take a couple minor programming courses based on AS2 , I found that I already knew more than the teachers at my school on the subject from reading through the docs when I was 15-18 and ended up serving as a tutor in the classes ( as I did in virtually all classes with nearly straight A 's and still unable to graduate from final class , almost laughable if it had n't cost so much ) even though I would now consider my knowledge of AS2 at the time to be infantile .
I should have expected as much since the school was dedicated to art students , many of whom could barely work a computer .
Back to the subject : I think the best way to get a new person into programming would be to teach them the fundamentals of object oriented programming first and make sure that it is taught around something they are interested in .
For example , if the noobie is interested in games I would suggest teaching them to program in UnrealScript - Unreal Engine 3 - UDK [ epicgames.com ] or XNA Game Studio 3.1 [ xna.com ] .
If he is into 2d graphics and animation try AS3 or Silverlight ( I do not really have experience with Silverlight past a few documentation glimpses and tutorials ) .
If he just likes dealing with data try PHP/MySQL.The important thing here is to make sure that he grasps the techniques needed to produce reliable , extend-able , clean and well documented object-oriented code .
If he 's really interested in programming he 's probably already good with math and will pick up on the algebraic and geometrical side of things easily in school math classes and be able to relate them to the object-oriented ideas you have already instilled in him allowing him to be able to generate code producing quick visual results with any of the previously suggested packages .
All of the languages I have suggested are extremely well documented.I hope I have been helpful .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am a self-taught programmer and I have been programming for over 12 years.
I started my interest in programming when I was 12, but wouldn't consider myself into programming until I was 14.When I was 12, I got a C++ programming book and went through it fairly quickly.
My interest was in developing video games like Doom, Quake, etc.
At the time I was young and lacked the knowledge or dedication to look into this any further and became attached to HTML/JavaScript, PHP and AS2/3 as a web developer and 2d/3d animator/modeler/artist.
Slightly off-topic bg info: I actually went to school for Media Arts and Animation(Where I flunked out with 1 class to graduate due to financial issues and turned to programming permanently) and while I did take a couple minor programming courses based on AS2, I found that I already knew more than the teachers at my school on the subject from reading through the docs when I was 15-18 and ended up serving as a tutor in the classes(as I did in virtually all classes with nearly straight A's and still unable to graduate from final class, almost laughable if it hadn't cost so much) even though I would now consider my knowledge of AS2 at the time to be infantile.
I should have expected as much since the school was dedicated to art students, many of whom could barely work a computer.
Back to the subject: I think the best way to get a new person into programming would be to teach them the fundamentals of object oriented programming first and make sure that it is taught around something they are interested in.
For example, if the noobie is interested in games I would suggest teaching them to program in UnrealScript - Unreal Engine 3 - UDK [epicgames.com] or XNA Game Studio 3.1 [xna.com].
If he is into 2d graphics and animation try AS3 or Silverlight(I do not really have experience with Silverlight past a few documentation glimpses and tutorials).
If he just likes dealing with data try PHP/MySQL.The important thing here is to make sure that he grasps the techniques needed to produce reliable, extend-able, clean and well documented object-oriented code.
If he's really interested in programming he's probably already good with math and will pick up on the algebraic and geometrical side of things easily in school math classes and be able to relate them to the object-oriented ideas you have already instilled in him allowing him to be able to generate code producing quick visual results with any of the previously suggested packages.
All of the languages I have suggested are extremely well documented.I hope I have been helpful.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566490</id>
	<title>Soccer</title>
	<author>masmullin</author>
	<datestamp>1261916580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Give him a ball and tell him to fucking go play outside!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Give him a ball and tell him to fucking go play outside !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Give him a ball and tell him to fucking go play outside!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569980</id>
	<title>www.alice.org</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262007900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hi,</p><p>I'm not sure if this environment is more suitable for girls than boys. I believe Alice was specifically designed to get girls interested in programming. Having said that the fact that you can drag and drop objects into your environment and then animate them with C/C++/Java like syntax is interesting. The last time I looked at Alice http://www.alice.org they were taking about a deal with EA Games to allow the Sims animation engine to work with Alice which would be really cool.</p><p>On the regular language front I learned to program in Basic via punch cards in the early 70's when I was 12 so absolutely no harm in trying Basic. Another good alternative is Logo. Or for physical feedback of what you are programming there is nothing better than Lego Mindstorms.</p><p>Good luck.</p><p>Fergal Dearle<br>http://www.dearle.com<br>I'm not an anonymous coward. I just did not bother loging in before commenting<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hi,I 'm not sure if this environment is more suitable for girls than boys .
I believe Alice was specifically designed to get girls interested in programming .
Having said that the fact that you can drag and drop objects into your environment and then animate them with C/C + + /Java like syntax is interesting .
The last time I looked at Alice http : //www.alice.org they were taking about a deal with EA Games to allow the Sims animation engine to work with Alice which would be really cool.On the regular language front I learned to program in Basic via punch cards in the early 70 's when I was 12 so absolutely no harm in trying Basic .
Another good alternative is Logo .
Or for physical feedback of what you are programming there is nothing better than Lego Mindstorms.Good luck.Fergal Dearlehttp : //www.dearle.comI 'm not an anonymous coward .
I just did not bother loging in before commenting : - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hi,I'm not sure if this environment is more suitable for girls than boys.
I believe Alice was specifically designed to get girls interested in programming.
Having said that the fact that you can drag and drop objects into your environment and then animate them with C/C++/Java like syntax is interesting.
The last time I looked at Alice http://www.alice.org they were taking about a deal with EA Games to allow the Sims animation engine to work with Alice which would be really cool.On the regular language front I learned to program in Basic via punch cards in the early 70's when I was 12 so absolutely no harm in trying Basic.
Another good alternative is Logo.
Or for physical feedback of what you are programming there is nothing better than Lego Mindstorms.Good luck.Fergal Dearlehttp://www.dearle.comI'm not an anonymous coward.
I just did not bother loging in before commenting :-)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569862</id>
	<title>colobot</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262006340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>find a game called colobot, it's fun and it teaches a c "style" language.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>find a game called colobot , it 's fun and it teaches a c " style " language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>find a game called colobot, it's fun and it teaches a c "style" language.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30603628</id>
	<title>Logic should be in built !</title>
	<author>shimbi</author>
	<datestamp>1262292180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Does your younger brother really want to learn anything about programming as teaching programming is not about teaching  a chapter in school !You have to be a born programmer!!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Does your younger brother really want to learn anything about programming as teaching programming is not about teaching a chapter in school ! You have to be a born programmer !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does your younger brother really want to learn anything about programming as teaching programming is not about teaching  a chapter in school !You have to be a born programmer!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570586</id>
	<title>AHA --- Forward to the Past</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262012880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>COBOL!!  Great future for invividuals to fall back on when all the glitzy jobs dry up (completely) at Wall Street.  Ka-zillions of lines of code to maintain, always have a job from the world's biggest, best, deepest-lined pockets.  So obvious that I'm surprised everyone else missed this easy to learn, and high-paying, route!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>COBOL ! !
Great future for invividuals to fall back on when all the glitzy jobs dry up ( completely ) at Wall Street .
Ka-zillions of lines of code to maintain , always have a job from the world 's biggest , best , deepest-lined pockets .
So obvious that I 'm surprised everyone else missed this easy to learn , and high-paying , route !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>COBOL!!
Great future for invividuals to fall back on when all the glitzy jobs dry up (completely) at Wall Street.
Ka-zillions of lines of code to maintain, always have a job from the world's biggest, best, deepest-lined pockets.
So obvious that I'm surprised everyone else missed this easy to learn, and high-paying, route!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565686</id>
	<title>Dupe?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261909560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://news.slashdot.org/story/08/12/10/2257223/Best-Introduction-To-Programming-For-Bright-11-14-Year-Olds" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">Best Introduction To Programming For Bright 11-14-Year-Olds?</a> [slashdot.org]</p><p>Or is your brother not bright?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>You could always try searching for yourself....<br><a href="http://slashdot.org/index2.pl?fhfilter=askslashdot+language" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">http://slashdot.org/index2.pl?fhfilter=askslashdot+language</a> [slashdot.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Best Introduction To Programming For Bright 11-14-Year-Olds ?
[ slashdot.org ] Or is your brother not bright ?
: ) You could always try searching for yourself....http : //slashdot.org/index2.pl ? fhfilter = askslashdot + language [ slashdot.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Best Introduction To Programming For Bright 11-14-Year-Olds?
[slashdot.org]Or is your brother not bright?
:)You could always try searching for yourself....http://slashdot.org/index2.pl?fhfilter=askslashdot+language [slashdot.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565800</id>
	<title>Go with ActionScript 3.0</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261910520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Actionscript is like C/C++, but with protection from some of the nastier stuff.  Also, if you want to get straight to displaying graphics, I haven't found a language as easy to do that with.  The most important thing is that Flash games are actually pretty cool so if you become a master in Flash over the years, you can crank out some games.  I coded Basic since the Ti-99 in 82, through C64 basic in 85 to GW basic in 91 to quick basic in 92.  C/C++ from 95-2009, and now I'm on Flash which I picked up in a week.  <br> <br> I think the secret to any object oriented language is to avoid complex memory references as much as possible, and just stick with dumb arrays and procedural programming as much as possible.  I'd say it is possible for a person to code in Flash without knowing any OO concepts at all as long as they have someone to spoon feed them the basics.  Another tip:  If you code small chunks at a time, you almost never get caught blinded by where the bugs could be... They're most likely in the new code you wrote!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Actionscript is like C/C + + , but with protection from some of the nastier stuff .
Also , if you want to get straight to displaying graphics , I have n't found a language as easy to do that with .
The most important thing is that Flash games are actually pretty cool so if you become a master in Flash over the years , you can crank out some games .
I coded Basic since the Ti-99 in 82 , through C64 basic in 85 to GW basic in 91 to quick basic in 92 .
C/C + + from 95-2009 , and now I 'm on Flash which I picked up in a week .
I think the secret to any object oriented language is to avoid complex memory references as much as possible , and just stick with dumb arrays and procedural programming as much as possible .
I 'd say it is possible for a person to code in Flash without knowing any OO concepts at all as long as they have someone to spoon feed them the basics .
Another tip : If you code small chunks at a time , you almost never get caught blinded by where the bugs could be... They 're most likely in the new code you wrote !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actionscript is like C/C++, but with protection from some of the nastier stuff.
Also, if you want to get straight to displaying graphics, I haven't found a language as easy to do that with.
The most important thing is that Flash games are actually pretty cool so if you become a master in Flash over the years, you can crank out some games.
I coded Basic since the Ti-99 in 82, through C64 basic in 85 to GW basic in 91 to quick basic in 92.
C/C++ from 95-2009, and now I'm on Flash which I picked up in a week.
I think the secret to any object oriented language is to avoid complex memory references as much as possible, and just stick with dumb arrays and procedural programming as much as possible.
I'd say it is possible for a person to code in Flash without knowing any OO concepts at all as long as they have someone to spoon feed them the basics.
Another tip:  If you code small chunks at a time, you almost never get caught blinded by where the bugs could be... They're most likely in the new code you wrote!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566058</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>omb</author>
	<datestamp>1261912620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>VERY, very true, programmers are born, not taught, when I was teaching Computer Science I think we had about a 1\% success ratio since unlike many subjects including Mathematical Computer Science, programming can not really be taught, yes you can help a programmer to become much better, teaching methods, models, tools, patterns, reviewing very good code, read Knuth's Web and TeX for example.<br><br>You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make a programmer out of a non-programmer, their brain is wired differently!</htmltext>
<tokenext>VERY , very true , programmers are born , not taught , when I was teaching Computer Science I think we had about a 1 \ % success ratio since unlike many subjects including Mathematical Computer Science , programming can not really be taught , yes you can help a programmer to become much better , teaching methods , models , tools , patterns , reviewing very good code , read Knuth 's Web and TeX for example.You can lead a horse to water , but you can not make a programmer out of a non-programmer , their brain is wired differently !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>VERY, very true, programmers are born, not taught, when I was teaching Computer Science I think we had about a 1\% success ratio since unlike many subjects including Mathematical Computer Science, programming can not really be taught, yes you can help a programmer to become much better, teaching methods, models, tools, patterns, reviewing very good code, read Knuth's Web and TeX for example.You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make a programmer out of a non-programmer, their brain is wired differently!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571892</id>
	<title>Dreamweaver and Scratch</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262019960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If he is interested in programming, I would recommend getting a copy of Dreamweaver (you can get last years version for next to nothing on e-bay) and get him started learning HTML and CSS. Creating something that he can show off will be a great motivator.</p><p>If he is NOT interested in programming, I would recommend starting with Scratch (scratch.mit.edu). It's an OOP that is designed to create games and simple apps, but you can add structured code to it to create more sophisticated apps. They have a public area where you can share apps that you have created. I started my son on it when he was 10 and he still uses it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If he is interested in programming , I would recommend getting a copy of Dreamweaver ( you can get last years version for next to nothing on e-bay ) and get him started learning HTML and CSS .
Creating something that he can show off will be a great motivator.If he is NOT interested in programming , I would recommend starting with Scratch ( scratch.mit.edu ) .
It 's an OOP that is designed to create games and simple apps , but you can add structured code to it to create more sophisticated apps .
They have a public area where you can share apps that you have created .
I started my son on it when he was 10 and he still uses it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If he is interested in programming, I would recommend getting a copy of Dreamweaver (you can get last years version for next to nothing on e-bay) and get him started learning HTML and CSS.
Creating something that he can show off will be a great motivator.If he is NOT interested in programming, I would recommend starting with Scratch (scratch.mit.edu).
It's an OOP that is designed to create games and simple apps, but you can add structured code to it to create more sophisticated apps.
They have a public area where you can share apps that you have created.
I started my son on it when he was 10 and he still uses it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565992</id>
	<title>Re:plain C, python, or ruby</title>
	<author>tuxicle</author>
	<datestamp>1261912080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd say that C requires too great a knowledge of how computers work internally to grasp concepts like pointers, which are fundamental to understanding C. I still think kids would need a stepping stone before C to grasp concepts like program flow, branching, etc. Personally, I taught myself BASIC first, then kept bugging my dad, asking him how "real programs" were written. The thing that bothered me was my<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.BAS files still needed GW or Q basic to run, while everything else just had a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.EXE. He mentioned C and Pascal, so I saved up some money and bought a "teach yourself C" book because it was cheaper than the "teach yourself Pascal" book<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd say that C requires too great a knowledge of how computers work internally to grasp concepts like pointers , which are fundamental to understanding C. I still think kids would need a stepping stone before C to grasp concepts like program flow , branching , etc .
Personally , I taught myself BASIC first , then kept bugging my dad , asking him how " real programs " were written .
The thing that bothered me was my .BAS files still needed GW or Q basic to run , while everything else just had a .EXE .
He mentioned C and Pascal , so I saved up some money and bought a " teach yourself C " book because it was cheaper than the " teach yourself Pascal " book : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd say that C requires too great a knowledge of how computers work internally to grasp concepts like pointers, which are fundamental to understanding C. I still think kids would need a stepping stone before C to grasp concepts like program flow, branching, etc.
Personally, I taught myself BASIC first, then kept bugging my dad, asking him how "real programs" were written.
The thing that bothered me was my .BAS files still needed GW or Q basic to run, while everything else just had a .EXE.
He mentioned C and Pascal, so I saved up some money and bought a "teach yourself C" book because it was cheaper than the "teach yourself Pascal" book :)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564904</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565008</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261904880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Interestingly along those lines someone has created a low-entry-barrier BASIC type language. Check out <a href="http://kidbasic.sourceforge.net/" title="sourceforge.net">http://kidbasic.sourceforge.net/</a> [sourceforge.net]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Interestingly along those lines someone has created a low-entry-barrier BASIC type language .
Check out http : //kidbasic.sourceforge.net/ [ sourceforge.net ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Interestingly along those lines someone has created a low-entry-barrier BASIC type language.
Check out http://kidbasic.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568572</id>
	<title>Scratch, Alice (and variants), Stratch NG, Unity3d</title>
	<author>cazwax</author>
	<datestamp>1261939500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've found Scratch to be very accessible for  kids starting around 7. <a href="http://scratch.mit.edu/" title="mit.edu" rel="nofollow">http://scratch.mit.edu/</a> [mit.edu]</p><p>The visual programming language was used by Lego for the Mindstorm platform, as well as others. I believe there is an Arduino front end too.</p><p>Scratch TNG is a 3d version of Scratch tilted to simulation.</p><p>Alice, Storytelling alice, and Alice 3 are all nice. Alice3 has an onion-skinning mode where the visual programming language can be peeled down to the underlaying Java code in a series of discrete abstraction steps.</p><p>Unity3d, recently made free, would be another step along. A non programmer can get somethings to happen pretty easily. Underneath you are scripting in a javascript variant, python, or C.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've found Scratch to be very accessible for kids starting around 7. http : //scratch.mit.edu/ [ mit.edu ] The visual programming language was used by Lego for the Mindstorm platform , as well as others .
I believe there is an Arduino front end too.Scratch TNG is a 3d version of Scratch tilted to simulation.Alice , Storytelling alice , and Alice 3 are all nice .
Alice3 has an onion-skinning mode where the visual programming language can be peeled down to the underlaying Java code in a series of discrete abstraction steps.Unity3d , recently made free , would be another step along .
A non programmer can get somethings to happen pretty easily .
Underneath you are scripting in a javascript variant , python , or C .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've found Scratch to be very accessible for  kids starting around 7. http://scratch.mit.edu/ [mit.edu]The visual programming language was used by Lego for the Mindstorm platform, as well as others.
I believe there is an Arduino front end too.Scratch TNG is a 3d version of Scratch tilted to simulation.Alice, Storytelling alice, and Alice 3 are all nice.
Alice3 has an onion-skinning mode where the visual programming language can be peeled down to the underlaying Java code in a series of discrete abstraction steps.Unity3d, recently made free, would be another step along.
A non programmer can get somethings to happen pretty easily.
Underneath you are scripting in a javascript variant, python, or C.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30575618</id>
	<title>GNU Robots is a great start</title>
	<author>Jim Hall</author>
	<datestamp>1261994700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most kids like to write some kind of game as their first program. It's immediate enjoyment, and something they'd like to play with when it's done.</p><p>So a good start for learning programming might be <a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/gnurobots/" title="gnu.org">GNU Robots</a> [gnu.org]. In it, you write a program for a little robot, then send it out to explore a world on its own. The robot has to run autonomously, using the program that you gave it to navigate obstacles, avoid (or destroy) enemies, pick up energy tablets, and collect rewards. And you get to watch the robot do its thing, so when it's done you can immediately update your program and try to improve it.</p><p>GNU Robot programs are written in Scheme, which should be fairly easy to learn.</p><p> <em>(Disclaimer: I'm the original author of GNU Robots, although I turned it over to someone else after I released version 1.0D in 2000.)</em> </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most kids like to write some kind of game as their first program .
It 's immediate enjoyment , and something they 'd like to play with when it 's done.So a good start for learning programming might be GNU Robots [ gnu.org ] .
In it , you write a program for a little robot , then send it out to explore a world on its own .
The robot has to run autonomously , using the program that you gave it to navigate obstacles , avoid ( or destroy ) enemies , pick up energy tablets , and collect rewards .
And you get to watch the robot do its thing , so when it 's done you can immediately update your program and try to improve it.GNU Robot programs are written in Scheme , which should be fairly easy to learn .
( Disclaimer : I 'm the original author of GNU Robots , although I turned it over to someone else after I released version 1.0D in 2000 .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most kids like to write some kind of game as their first program.
It's immediate enjoyment, and something they'd like to play with when it's done.So a good start for learning programming might be GNU Robots [gnu.org].
In it, you write a program for a little robot, then send it out to explore a world on its own.
The robot has to run autonomously, using the program that you gave it to navigate obstacles, avoid (or destroy) enemies, pick up energy tablets, and collect rewards.
And you get to watch the robot do its thing, so when it's done you can immediately update your program and try to improve it.GNU Robot programs are written in Scheme, which should be fairly easy to learn.
(Disclaimer: I'm the original author of GNU Robots, although I turned it over to someone else after I released version 1.0D in 2000.
) </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567198</id>
	<title>Re:HTML and Javascript</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261922640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yea definitely start with HTML and javascript first.<br>Instant, free  and you know its working. At this point if you get frustrated and you feel like its not your thing, you've only spent about less than a day or two learning some basic javascript.<br>I remember  the myspace and xanga days when you made your profile nice and spiffy with javascript.<br>After you think you know that you want to do something harder. Made some sort of small game, tic tac toe even in javascript and you want something more...<br>then go to your local library borrow one of those big books, Learn C in 30 days ( or anything similar). You dont have to learn in 30 days. But that book will teach you everything you need to know. From then on just keep learning and programming. Good luck.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yea definitely start with HTML and javascript first.Instant , free and you know its working .
At this point if you get frustrated and you feel like its not your thing , you 've only spent about less than a day or two learning some basic javascript.I remember the myspace and xanga days when you made your profile nice and spiffy with javascript.After you think you know that you want to do something harder .
Made some sort of small game , tic tac toe even in javascript and you want something more...then go to your local library borrow one of those big books , Learn C in 30 days ( or anything similar ) .
You dont have to learn in 30 days .
But that book will teach you everything you need to know .
From then on just keep learning and programming .
Good luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yea definitely start with HTML and javascript first.Instant, free  and you know its working.
At this point if you get frustrated and you feel like its not your thing, you've only spent about less than a day or two learning some basic javascript.I remember  the myspace and xanga days when you made your profile nice and spiffy with javascript.After you think you know that you want to do something harder.
Made some sort of small game, tic tac toe even in javascript and you want something more...then go to your local library borrow one of those big books, Learn C in 30 days ( or anything similar).
You dont have to learn in 30 days.
But that book will teach you everything you need to know.
From then on just keep learning and programming.
Good luck.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566004</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568374</id>
	<title>When I was a teen...</title>
	<author>sesshomaru</author>
	<datestamp>1261936380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I was a teen I was mainly interested in <a href="http://www.markwelch.com/agt.htm" title="markwelch.com">Adventure Game Toolkit</a> [markwelch.com] and before that, <a href="http://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue8/3060\_1\_THE\_ATARI\_GAZETTE.php" title="atarimagazines.com">Player-Missile Graphics</a> [atarimagazines.com].

Of course, that brings up a point, how do you get a child interested in programming?  In my case, I had my own computer (well, I mostly shared it with my Dad, which occasionally led to arguing) and a supply of cool computer hobbyist magazines.

So, if I were going to get a kid interested in programming, the first think I'd do is get him a cheap, linux netbook and the next thing would be a magazine subscription.  Hmm, but what magazine?  Well, before it got axed, I like Maximum Linux, but there seem to still be a few good Linux magazines around.

Oh, someone is probably thinking, at this point, why Linux?  Why not Windows?  Mainly because Linux is an OS aimed at programmers and Windows is aimed at non-programmers.  There are a lot of free tools for both, ymmv.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was a teen I was mainly interested in Adventure Game Toolkit [ markwelch.com ] and before that , Player-Missile Graphics [ atarimagazines.com ] .
Of course , that brings up a point , how do you get a child interested in programming ?
In my case , I had my own computer ( well , I mostly shared it with my Dad , which occasionally led to arguing ) and a supply of cool computer hobbyist magazines .
So , if I were going to get a kid interested in programming , the first think I 'd do is get him a cheap , linux netbook and the next thing would be a magazine subscription .
Hmm , but what magazine ?
Well , before it got axed , I like Maximum Linux , but there seem to still be a few good Linux magazines around .
Oh , someone is probably thinking , at this point , why Linux ?
Why not Windows ?
Mainly because Linux is an OS aimed at programmers and Windows is aimed at non-programmers .
There are a lot of free tools for both , ymmv .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was a teen I was mainly interested in Adventure Game Toolkit [markwelch.com] and before that, Player-Missile Graphics [atarimagazines.com].
Of course, that brings up a point, how do you get a child interested in programming?
In my case, I had my own computer (well, I mostly shared it with my Dad, which occasionally led to arguing) and a supply of cool computer hobbyist magazines.
So, if I were going to get a kid interested in programming, the first think I'd do is get him a cheap, linux netbook and the next thing would be a magazine subscription.
Hmm, but what magazine?
Well, before it got axed, I like Maximum Linux, but there seem to still be a few good Linux magazines around.
Oh, someone is probably thinking, at this point, why Linux?
Why not Windows?
Mainly because Linux is an OS aimed at programmers and Windows is aimed at non-programmers.
There are a lot of free tools for both, ymmv.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568178</id>
	<title>um</title>
	<author>CHRONOSS2008</author>
	<datestamp>1261933380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>commodore vic 20<br>basic beginnings<br>by 13 was doing C and there after c++<br>and tons a other stuffs</p><p>get them a vic and have them code there own games the manual that computer came with was perfect for kids to learn EVERYTHING</p><p>as to other languages</p><p>get em knowing php, C++, javascript, python( tcl/tk)</p><p>and it is hilarious to see morons say HTML coding is not programming<br>go ahead and look at the "addon" languages that one has ot have a degree of skill in ot make interactive and good looking websites and not to mention your graphic skills to boot</p><p>The website is effectively a marketing tool and as such one should have some skills there as well.</p><p>With Ajax, javascript and perl and cgi as well as modifying the actual webserver ( network admin skills )<br>there is a lot more to being an accredited webmaster then toying with BASIC html</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>commodore vic 20basic beginningsby 13 was doing C and there after c + + and tons a other stuffsget them a vic and have them code there own games the manual that computer came with was perfect for kids to learn EVERYTHINGas to other languagesget em knowing php , C + + , javascript , python ( tcl/tk ) and it is hilarious to see morons say HTML coding is not programminggo ahead and look at the " addon " languages that one has ot have a degree of skill in ot make interactive and good looking websites and not to mention your graphic skills to bootThe website is effectively a marketing tool and as such one should have some skills there as well.With Ajax , javascript and perl and cgi as well as modifying the actual webserver ( network admin skills ) there is a lot more to being an accredited webmaster then toying with BASIC html</tokentext>
<sentencetext>commodore vic 20basic beginningsby 13 was doing C and there after c++and tons a other stuffsget them a vic and have them code there own games the manual that computer came with was perfect for kids to learn EVERYTHINGas to other languagesget em knowing php, C++, javascript, python( tcl/tk)and it is hilarious to see morons say HTML coding is not programminggo ahead and look at the "addon" languages that one has ot have a degree of skill in ot make interactive and good looking websites and not to mention your graphic skills to bootThe website is effectively a marketing tool and as such one should have some skills there as well.With Ajax, javascript and perl and cgi as well as modifying the actual webserver ( network admin skills )there is a lot more to being an accredited webmaster then toying with BASIC html</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564862</id>
	<title>javascript</title>
	<author>emj</author>
	<datestamp>1261947000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>with canvas you can easily get graphics, and you can do network stuff.</htmltext>
<tokenext>with canvas you can easily get graphics , and you can do network stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>with canvas you can easily get graphics, and you can do network stuff.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569594</id>
	<title>Scratch!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262001960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I suggest looking into Scratch (http://scratch.mit.edu/).  It's a fine graphical programming environment developed for precisely this purpose.  Each control structure is given a graphical "shape" with "connectors" on each end to show how individual structure work as well as showing how each structure interacts with those around it.  Give it a review!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I suggest looking into Scratch ( http : //scratch.mit.edu/ ) .
It 's a fine graphical programming environment developed for precisely this purpose .
Each control structure is given a graphical " shape " with " connectors " on each end to show how individual structure work as well as showing how each structure interacts with those around it .
Give it a review !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I suggest looking into Scratch (http://scratch.mit.edu/).
It's a fine graphical programming environment developed for precisely this purpose.
Each control structure is given a graphical "shape" with "connectors" on each end to show how individual structure work as well as showing how each structure interacts with those around it.
Give it a review!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564954</id>
	<title>Logo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261904520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Many still recommend Logo as an early teaching language. It's quite visual.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Many still recommend Logo as an early teaching language .
It 's quite visual .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many still recommend Logo as an early teaching language.
It's quite visual.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565884</id>
	<title>Best Teaching Language</title>
	<author>omb</author>
	<datestamp>1261911300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I would like to recommend (1) C, and (2) Python. NOT C++, or Java AT any price.<br><br>Reasoning C, is simple and short to define and understand and is well supported with debugging tools ddd, and gdb, which now has reverse debugging and he will also learn about the POSIX api. Python is very clean, and 2.6 up has a very good Object Model and Library. It is the best language for people entering OO mode. Programmers who know C, Fortran, Cobol or Pascal seem to transition to Python easily. It also gas good built in debugging tools, just not as good as Perl, which continues to irritate me.<br><br>No way start with C++, Java or Pascal. C++ + StdLib + Boost is just too complicated, and every iteration of the Standard Committee seems to make things worse, the two Scott Myers books are very useful and I ensure that anyone working on a C++ project knows of and reads them. But anything that needs that is a mess and the C++ world continues to multiply inherit the kludge of CFront or rather its effects on the language design and fix-by-committee. Java is too verbose and tends to have people depend on program writing tools, which is the last thing a learner needs. Pascal is old, and not going anywhere.<br><br>Remember C was derived from BCPL which was created as a teaching language. I don't hold with the theory that it is necessary to protect the beginner from pointers and mandate a managed and garbage-collected language. If you are able, after a few months, you should show him some assembler and explain the tool chain.<br><br>Compile -&gt; Assemble -&gt; Link -&gt; Load (Debug), and,<br><br>Compile -&gt; Interpret<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would like to recommend ( 1 ) C , and ( 2 ) Python .
NOT C + + , or Java AT any price.Reasoning C , is simple and short to define and understand and is well supported with debugging tools ddd , and gdb , which now has reverse debugging and he will also learn about the POSIX api .
Python is very clean , and 2.6 up has a very good Object Model and Library .
It is the best language for people entering OO mode .
Programmers who know C , Fortran , Cobol or Pascal seem to transition to Python easily .
It also gas good built in debugging tools , just not as good as Perl , which continues to irritate me.No way start with C + + , Java or Pascal .
C + + + StdLib + Boost is just too complicated , and every iteration of the Standard Committee seems to make things worse , the two Scott Myers books are very useful and I ensure that anyone working on a C + + project knows of and reads them .
But anything that needs that is a mess and the C + + world continues to multiply inherit the kludge of CFront or rather its effects on the language design and fix-by-committee .
Java is too verbose and tends to have people depend on program writing tools , which is the last thing a learner needs .
Pascal is old , and not going anywhere.Remember C was derived from BCPL which was created as a teaching language .
I do n't hold with the theory that it is necessary to protect the beginner from pointers and mandate a managed and garbage-collected language .
If you are able , after a few months , you should show him some assembler and explain the tool chain.Compile - &gt; Assemble - &gt; Link - &gt; Load ( Debug ) , and,Compile - &gt; Interpret .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would like to recommend (1) C, and (2) Python.
NOT C++, or Java AT any price.Reasoning C, is simple and short to define and understand and is well supported with debugging tools ddd, and gdb, which now has reverse debugging and he will also learn about the POSIX api.
Python is very clean, and 2.6 up has a very good Object Model and Library.
It is the best language for people entering OO mode.
Programmers who know C, Fortran, Cobol or Pascal seem to transition to Python easily.
It also gas good built in debugging tools, just not as good as Perl, which continues to irritate me.No way start with C++, Java or Pascal.
C++ + StdLib + Boost is just too complicated, and every iteration of the Standard Committee seems to make things worse, the two Scott Myers books are very useful and I ensure that anyone working on a C++ project knows of and reads them.
But anything that needs that is a mess and the C++ world continues to multiply inherit the kludge of CFront or rather its effects on the language design and fix-by-committee.
Java is too verbose and tends to have people depend on program writing tools, which is the last thing a learner needs.
Pascal is old, and not going anywhere.Remember C was derived from BCPL which was created as a teaching language.
I don't hold with the theory that it is necessary to protect the beginner from pointers and mandate a managed and garbage-collected language.
If you are able, after a few months, you should show him some assembler and explain the tool chain.Compile -&gt; Assemble -&gt; Link -&gt; Load (Debug), and,Compile -&gt; Interpret ...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30574682</id>
	<title>Re:Python</title>
	<author>jocknerd</author>
	<datestamp>1262032800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Was your daughter featured in Python Magazine recently?  I just read an article about a girl who used Python to analyze the colors of leaves of some kind.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Was your daughter featured in Python Magazine recently ?
I just read an article about a girl who used Python to analyze the colors of leaves of some kind .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Was your daughter featured in Python Magazine recently?
I just read an article about a girl who used Python to analyze the colors of leaves of some kind.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565006</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565458</id>
	<title>Try Phrogram / KPL</title>
	<author>MobyDisk</author>
	<datestamp>1261907580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I taught my brother a bit using <a href="http://phrogram.com/kpl.aspx" title="phrogram.com">KPL</a> [phrogram.com], but looks like it has been replaced with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrogram" title="wikipedia.org">Phrogram</a> [wikipedia.org]  To me, it was like what I could do in BASIC years old - a few lines of code to draw some cool shapes then animate them.  Very minimal meta-programming (importing libraries, using statements, make scripts, etc.) I actually was using it and feeling kinda jealous, like "why can't I be this productive in real languages?"  It was a heck of a lot of fun too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I taught my brother a bit using KPL [ phrogram.com ] , but looks like it has been replaced with Phrogram [ wikipedia.org ] To me , it was like what I could do in BASIC years old - a few lines of code to draw some cool shapes then animate them .
Very minimal meta-programming ( importing libraries , using statements , make scripts , etc .
) I actually was using it and feeling kinda jealous , like " why ca n't I be this productive in real languages ?
" It was a heck of a lot of fun too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I taught my brother a bit using KPL [phrogram.com], but looks like it has been replaced with Phrogram [wikipedia.org]  To me, it was like what I could do in BASIC years old - a few lines of code to draw some cool shapes then animate them.
Very minimal meta-programming (importing libraries, using statements, make scripts, etc.
) I actually was using it and feeling kinda jealous, like "why can't I be this productive in real languages?
"  It was a heck of a lot of fun too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565376</id>
	<title>Editor's remark...</title>
	<author>Saint Ego</author>
	<datestamp>1261907160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The demographic already has a great deal of preconceptions about how to train a 12yo to program. My kid is only 5. Go back and edit the post to capture a stronger market demo...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The demographic already has a great deal of preconceptions about how to train a 12yo to program .
My kid is only 5 .
Go back and edit the post to capture a stronger market demo.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The demographic already has a great deal of preconceptions about how to train a 12yo to program.
My kid is only 5.
Go back and edit the post to capture a stronger market demo...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567696</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Zalbik</author>
	<datestamp>1261927500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Great advice! I also tried to teach my son to program, but he wasn't interested. I think the 'key' is to find something he is interested in that he has to learn to program to do it.</p></div> </blockquote><p>No you asshat, the 'key' is to find out what your child is interested in that they show aptitude at and nurture that.  Attempting to force your child into some preconceived mold in order to enrich some deranged sense of proxy-succcess you get through your child's achievement is just wrong.</p><p>Your children do not necessarily enjoy the same things you do.  Deal with it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Great advice !
I also tried to teach my son to program , but he was n't interested .
I think the 'key ' is to find something he is interested in that he has to learn to program to do it .
No you asshat , the 'key ' is to find out what your child is interested in that they show aptitude at and nurture that .
Attempting to force your child into some preconceived mold in order to enrich some deranged sense of proxy-succcess you get through your child 's achievement is just wrong.Your children do not necessarily enjoy the same things you do .
Deal with it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Great advice!
I also tried to teach my son to program, but he wasn't interested.
I think the 'key' is to find something he is interested in that he has to learn to program to do it.
No you asshat, the 'key' is to find out what your child is interested in that they show aptitude at and nurture that.
Attempting to force your child into some preconceived mold in order to enrich some deranged sense of proxy-succcess you get through your child's achievement is just wrong.Your children do not necessarily enjoy the same things you do.
Deal with it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565050</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566074</id>
	<title>Help making the programming world a better place..</title>
	<author>jopet</author>
	<datestamp>1261912800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>.. and avoid teaching C. The only reasons why C is still around are pragramitic reasons *despite* the inadequacy, bad design, and anachronistism and general retardedness of C.<br>Do not teach a single language. Do not predominantly teach a language, teach the concept of programming. You do not even need a programming language for that.<br>Make teaching fun and provide quick successes.<br>How to actually do it depends on how much time you want to invest in the teaching.</p><p>At any rate, I'd go for a mix of Scala (best pragrmatic compromise between good language design, portability and library &amp; tool support), Processing and Ocaml or similar. You could even start with Logo and then go to Processing using the turtle library of processing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>.. and avoid teaching C. The only reasons why C is still around are pragramitic reasons * despite * the inadequacy , bad design , and anachronistism and general retardedness of C.Do not teach a single language .
Do not predominantly teach a language , teach the concept of programming .
You do not even need a programming language for that.Make teaching fun and provide quick successes.How to actually do it depends on how much time you want to invest in the teaching.At any rate , I 'd go for a mix of Scala ( best pragrmatic compromise between good language design , portability and library &amp; tool support ) , Processing and Ocaml or similar .
You could even start with Logo and then go to Processing using the turtle library of processing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>.. and avoid teaching C. The only reasons why C is still around are pragramitic reasons *despite* the inadequacy, bad design, and anachronistism and general retardedness of C.Do not teach a single language.
Do not predominantly teach a language, teach the concept of programming.
You do not even need a programming language for that.Make teaching fun and provide quick successes.How to actually do it depends on how much time you want to invest in the teaching.At any rate, I'd go for a mix of Scala (best pragrmatic compromise between good language design, portability and library &amp; tool support), Processing and Ocaml or similar.
You could even start with Logo and then go to Processing using the turtle library of processing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566598</id>
	<title>I'm more interested in...</title>
	<author>Schnoogs</author>
	<datestamp>1261917480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...how to teach my 40+ year old coworkers how to program.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...how to teach my 40 + year old coworkers how to program .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...how to teach my 40+ year old coworkers how to program.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568694</id>
	<title>Don't forget the lessons!</title>
	<author>my2iu</author>
	<datestamp>1261941660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are lots of great languages for starter programmers, but a lot of these languages don't have extensive lessons available for beginner programmers. If you're providing guidance or if the student is highly motivated, it's not a problem, but sometimes it's useful to have some lessons and exercises available. I created a website called <a href="http://www.programmingbasics.org/" title="programmingbasics.org" rel="nofollow">Programming Basics</a> [programmingbasics.org] that provides some basic but thorough tutorials for teaching JavaScript to beginner programmers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are lots of great languages for starter programmers , but a lot of these languages do n't have extensive lessons available for beginner programmers .
If you 're providing guidance or if the student is highly motivated , it 's not a problem , but sometimes it 's useful to have some lessons and exercises available .
I created a website called Programming Basics [ programmingbasics.org ] that provides some basic but thorough tutorials for teaching JavaScript to beginner programmers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are lots of great languages for starter programmers, but a lot of these languages don't have extensive lessons available for beginner programmers.
If you're providing guidance or if the student is highly motivated, it's not a problem, but sometimes it's useful to have some lessons and exercises available.
I created a website called Programming Basics [programmingbasics.org] that provides some basic but thorough tutorials for teaching JavaScript to beginner programmers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569126</id>
	<title>C remains the best by far</title>
	<author>BugHappy</author>
	<datestamp>1261991880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><b>
30 years ago, I learned to program at 11 (in asm).
<br> <br>
When I discovered C it was a revelation: everything I could do in asm (with the help of 1\% of inline asm in C code) -without the pain for the rest of the program.
<br> <br>
No other language is as simple (32 keywords!) not as pure as C is, not as powerful.<br> <br>
No wonder why ALL other programming languages are written in C...
<br> <br>
And, if a kid is willing to learn, why go for a bloated, slow and buggy language rather than a 40-year old established open-standard?
</b></htmltext>
<tokenext>30 years ago , I learned to program at 11 ( in asm ) .
When I discovered C it was a revelation : everything I could do in asm ( with the help of 1 \ % of inline asm in C code ) -without the pain for the rest of the program .
No other language is as simple ( 32 keywords !
) not as pure as C is , not as powerful .
No wonder why ALL other programming languages are written in C.. . And , if a kid is willing to learn , why go for a bloated , slow and buggy language rather than a 40-year old established open-standard ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
30 years ago, I learned to program at 11 (in asm).
When I discovered C it was a revelation: everything I could do in asm (with the help of 1\% of inline asm in C code) -without the pain for the rest of the program.
No other language is as simple (32 keywords!
) not as pure as C is, not as powerful.
No wonder why ALL other programming languages are written in C...
 
And, if a kid is willing to learn, why go for a bloated, slow and buggy language rather than a 40-year old established open-standard?
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568340</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261935480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why not try Scratch? You can get it at<br>http://scratch.mit.edu/<br>It's promoted by the ACM</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why not try Scratch ?
You can get it athttp : //scratch.mit.edu/It 's promoted by the ACM</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why not try Scratch?
You can get it athttp://scratch.mit.edu/It's promoted by the ACM</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567828</id>
	<title>I did it with Visuals First</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261928760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lego -&gt;<br>Lego Mindstorms -&gt;<br>Delphi 3 -&gt;<br>Java -&gt;<br>C and other "more basic" languages.</p><p>In the Delphi stage I spent most of my time designing GUI's with the nice GUI designer that comes with Delphi. I then realized that each GUI element has properties (and other stuff) and that kind of introduced me to classes (Java). Java took me a while to learn but it was worth it. After Java I taught myself more basic, or older languages although I don't often use them.</p><p>So I suggest going from Visuals to text only Programming.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lego - &gt; Lego Mindstorms - &gt; Delphi 3 - &gt; Java - &gt; C and other " more basic " languages.In the Delphi stage I spent most of my time designing GUI 's with the nice GUI designer that comes with Delphi .
I then realized that each GUI element has properties ( and other stuff ) and that kind of introduced me to classes ( Java ) .
Java took me a while to learn but it was worth it .
After Java I taught myself more basic , or older languages although I do n't often use them.So I suggest going from Visuals to text only Programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lego -&gt;Lego Mindstorms -&gt;Delphi 3 -&gt;Java -&gt;C and other "more basic" languages.In the Delphi stage I spent most of my time designing GUI's with the nice GUI designer that comes with Delphi.
I then realized that each GUI element has properties (and other stuff) and that kind of introduced me to classes (Java).
Java took me a while to learn but it was worth it.
After Java I taught myself more basic, or older languages although I don't often use them.So I suggest going from Visuals to text only Programming.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30584348</id>
	<title>How to teach the love of programming</title>
	<author>Walkey</author>
	<datestamp>1262114340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>First, does your brother show any interest or at least curiosity in computers? This is a pre-requisite.<br>
If he does show curiosity then you must first try and understand what motivates this curiosity.<br>
<br>
Is he interested by the looks of an application, is he interested with the creativity, is he interested with how things work?<br>
The answer to this question will entirely change how you should approach your self-given task of teaching him to program.<br>
<br>
When you have found out his main motivation, then you need to tease his curiosity further by giving him simple examples of things to do and helping him to achieve this. Onl then can you start figuring out which language might be best.<br>
<br>
Personally I started with Logo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo\_\%28programming\_language\%29) - in my opinion the best language ever to get started with great ease with a key advanced programming concept: recursion. Then I went on with Basic (eek) and Pascal (great). Pascal (non-OO) was indeed very educational in that it allowed for great creativity and helped understand how a simple language actually worked (including insight into how compilers function).<br>
<br>
But soon, like you suggest, you need to get to a full blown language for a wholesome experience. Nowadays the choice is wide. Personally I would veer towards an interpreted language with an easy GUI toolkit. Python + Qt sounds like right the thing to me - but then again I'm sure you can make it happen with pretty much anything available.<br>
<br>
The key to teaching is not so much what is being taught but how it is being taught. If your brother is having fun, he'll learn anything. If he sees you having fun, he'll learn it quicker again. So you both need to be enjoying what you teach him (you must be familiar with whatever language you choose to teach him) and you must find ways to make it enjoyable for him too (with pragmatic and quick results to begin with and gradually increasing difficulty - it is essential that you teach him the basic problems: sorting, recursion, human-machine interfaces, how memory allocation works, you'll soon talk about multiple threads or tasks and dead-locks, live-locks...).<br>
<br>
Enjoy.</htmltext>
<tokenext>First , does your brother show any interest or at least curiosity in computers ?
This is a pre-requisite .
If he does show curiosity then you must first try and understand what motivates this curiosity .
Is he interested by the looks of an application , is he interested with the creativity , is he interested with how things work ?
The answer to this question will entirely change how you should approach your self-given task of teaching him to program .
When you have found out his main motivation , then you need to tease his curiosity further by giving him simple examples of things to do and helping him to achieve this .
Onl then can you start figuring out which language might be best .
Personally I started with Logo ( http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo \ _ \ % 28programming \ _language \ % 29 ) - in my opinion the best language ever to get started with great ease with a key advanced programming concept : recursion .
Then I went on with Basic ( eek ) and Pascal ( great ) .
Pascal ( non-OO ) was indeed very educational in that it allowed for great creativity and helped understand how a simple language actually worked ( including insight into how compilers function ) .
But soon , like you suggest , you need to get to a full blown language for a wholesome experience .
Nowadays the choice is wide .
Personally I would veer towards an interpreted language with an easy GUI toolkit .
Python + Qt sounds like right the thing to me - but then again I 'm sure you can make it happen with pretty much anything available .
The key to teaching is not so much what is being taught but how it is being taught .
If your brother is having fun , he 'll learn anything .
If he sees you having fun , he 'll learn it quicker again .
So you both need to be enjoying what you teach him ( you must be familiar with whatever language you choose to teach him ) and you must find ways to make it enjoyable for him too ( with pragmatic and quick results to begin with and gradually increasing difficulty - it is essential that you teach him the basic problems : sorting , recursion , human-machine interfaces , how memory allocation works , you 'll soon talk about multiple threads or tasks and dead-locks , live-locks... ) .
Enjoy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First, does your brother show any interest or at least curiosity in computers?
This is a pre-requisite.
If he does show curiosity then you must first try and understand what motivates this curiosity.
Is he interested by the looks of an application, is he interested with the creativity, is he interested with how things work?
The answer to this question will entirely change how you should approach your self-given task of teaching him to program.
When you have found out his main motivation, then you need to tease his curiosity further by giving him simple examples of things to do and helping him to achieve this.
Onl then can you start figuring out which language might be best.
Personally I started with Logo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo\_\%28programming\_language\%29) - in my opinion the best language ever to get started with great ease with a key advanced programming concept: recursion.
Then I went on with Basic (eek) and Pascal (great).
Pascal (non-OO) was indeed very educational in that it allowed for great creativity and helped understand how a simple language actually worked (including insight into how compilers function).
But soon, like you suggest, you need to get to a full blown language for a wholesome experience.
Nowadays the choice is wide.
Personally I would veer towards an interpreted language with an easy GUI toolkit.
Python + Qt sounds like right the thing to me - but then again I'm sure you can make it happen with pretty much anything available.
The key to teaching is not so much what is being taught but how it is being taught.
If your brother is having fun, he'll learn anything.
If he sees you having fun, he'll learn it quicker again.
So you both need to be enjoying what you teach him (you must be familiar with whatever language you choose to teach him) and you must find ways to make it enjoyable for him too (with pragmatic and quick results to begin with and gradually increasing difficulty - it is essential that you teach him the basic problems: sorting, recursion, human-machine interfaces, how memory allocation works, you'll soon talk about multiple threads or tasks and dead-locks, live-locks...).
Enjoy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566032</id>
	<title>What's his favourite game?</title>
	<author>Aliotroph</author>
	<datestamp>1261912320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Things like this have been mentioned already, but games get kids interested.  If he has a PC game he likes then see what it has for tool and languages?  I wasn't interested in learning anything like programming until the local news paper mentioned there were map editors for DOOM.  Had it possessed a scripting language at the time, I probably would have learned that in a hurry.</p><p>My brother's time running a private WoW server with his friends had him starting to learn MySQL.  If a game can inspire a kid to try SQL surely it can inspire interest in something less fantastically boring!</p><p>If he likes FPS games, he might like to learn to build a map and script some invasion maps or neat effects.  If like likes RTS games he could make some scripted stuff for maps or AI.  If he likes RPGs there are any number of scripting things he could do.  These kinds of scripting languages are usually just fine for teaching the basics of programming and they make it easy to have something cool to show your friends (who probably play the same game) in a real hurry.</p><p>Other posters have a good point about letting him go with his interests.  He may take to programming if he tries something like this.  He may not.  Programming requires you to want to think in a certain way (putting the world together in logical steps?) and most kids aren't very interested in that.  Having him build something -- *anything* -- for the game he likes might spark an interest in programming.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Things like this have been mentioned already , but games get kids interested .
If he has a PC game he likes then see what it has for tool and languages ?
I was n't interested in learning anything like programming until the local news paper mentioned there were map editors for DOOM .
Had it possessed a scripting language at the time , I probably would have learned that in a hurry.My brother 's time running a private WoW server with his friends had him starting to learn MySQL .
If a game can inspire a kid to try SQL surely it can inspire interest in something less fantastically boring ! If he likes FPS games , he might like to learn to build a map and script some invasion maps or neat effects .
If like likes RTS games he could make some scripted stuff for maps or AI .
If he likes RPGs there are any number of scripting things he could do .
These kinds of scripting languages are usually just fine for teaching the basics of programming and they make it easy to have something cool to show your friends ( who probably play the same game ) in a real hurry.Other posters have a good point about letting him go with his interests .
He may take to programming if he tries something like this .
He may not .
Programming requires you to want to think in a certain way ( putting the world together in logical steps ?
) and most kids are n't very interested in that .
Having him build something -- * anything * -- for the game he likes might spark an interest in programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Things like this have been mentioned already, but games get kids interested.
If he has a PC game he likes then see what it has for tool and languages?
I wasn't interested in learning anything like programming until the local news paper mentioned there were map editors for DOOM.
Had it possessed a scripting language at the time, I probably would have learned that in a hurry.My brother's time running a private WoW server with his friends had him starting to learn MySQL.
If a game can inspire a kid to try SQL surely it can inspire interest in something less fantastically boring!If he likes FPS games, he might like to learn to build a map and script some invasion maps or neat effects.
If like likes RTS games he could make some scripted stuff for maps or AI.
If he likes RPGs there are any number of scripting things he could do.
These kinds of scripting languages are usually just fine for teaching the basics of programming and they make it easy to have something cool to show your friends (who probably play the same game) in a real hurry.Other posters have a good point about letting him go with his interests.
He may take to programming if he tries something like this.
He may not.
Programming requires you to want to think in a certain way (putting the world together in logical steps?
) and most kids aren't very interested in that.
Having him build something -- *anything* -- for the game he likes might spark an interest in programming.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567654</id>
	<title>hackety hack</title>
	<author>cmdr\_tofu</author>
	<datestamp>1261927080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why the Lucky Stiff created an online Ruby environment for teaching programmign to kids.  It's called Hackety Hack.  Here's a link:<br><a href="http://hacketyhack.heroku.com/" title="heroku.com">http://hacketyhack.heroku.com/</a> [heroku.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why the Lucky Stiff created an online Ruby environment for teaching programmign to kids .
It 's called Hackety Hack .
Here 's a link : http : //hacketyhack.heroku.com/ [ heroku.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why the Lucky Stiff created an online Ruby environment for teaching programmign to kids.
It's called Hackety Hack.
Here's a link:http://hacketyhack.heroku.com/ [heroku.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565384</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>stimpleton</author>
	<datestamp>1261907160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"<i>You didn't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all</i> <br> <br>
Expanding on that a little, the period of discovery might be over with computers and hence programming. When I was 15 my school got 4 CP/M based machines and 2 apple IIe's. It was a time wonderous discovery of new things, and to get there students did it themselves.  <br> <br> With all this stuff being a natural part of a kids life now, I do wonder if that desire to discover is not there so much.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" You did n't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all Expanding on that a little , the period of discovery might be over with computers and hence programming .
When I was 15 my school got 4 CP/M based machines and 2 apple IIe 's .
It was a time wonderous discovery of new things , and to get there students did it themselves .
With all this stuff being a natural part of a kids life now , I do wonder if that desire to discover is not there so much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"You didn't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all  
Expanding on that a little, the period of discovery might be over with computers and hence programming.
When I was 15 my school got 4 CP/M based machines and 2 apple IIe's.
It was a time wonderous discovery of new things, and to get there students did it themselves.
With all this stuff being a natural part of a kids life now, I do wonder if that desire to discover is not there so much.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567938</id>
	<title>Processing</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261930080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think Processing (processing.org) is worth a look.</p><p>It is an easy step from Processing to Java, it is a brilliant way to learn to look at the ways to make raw data understandable, and is inherently graphical.</p><p>Dave</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think Processing ( processing.org ) is worth a look.It is an easy step from Processing to Java , it is a brilliant way to learn to look at the ways to make raw data understandable , and is inherently graphical.Dave</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think Processing (processing.org) is worth a look.It is an easy step from Processing to Java, it is a brilliant way to learn to look at the ways to make raw data understandable, and is inherently graphical.Dave</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30583698</id>
	<title>Re:Getting There From Here</title>
	<author>CptPicard</author>
	<datestamp>1262111220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree with the sentiment, but the "shell model of electrons" analogy gives too much credit to low-level languages in the programming context. I have debated low-level programmers a lot on this, and the most fanatical of them always leave me with the feeling that they don't actually have any clue as to why higher-level languages have the kinds of entities in them that they do. To them it's just all "dumbed down library calls" to the low level, where the actual pointer-magic makes everything happen. They simply do not see the meaning of the higher-level abstractions that emerge, and understanding of which is IMO the more important part to really grokking computation from the theoretical perspective.</p><p>I would actually go as far as say that low-level languages in the sense of asm simply are not present in any meaningful way in a language like Lisp, and/or they are trivially contained, and the value of a supposed bottom-up approach is very suspect...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with the sentiment , but the " shell model of electrons " analogy gives too much credit to low-level languages in the programming context .
I have debated low-level programmers a lot on this , and the most fanatical of them always leave me with the feeling that they do n't actually have any clue as to why higher-level languages have the kinds of entities in them that they do .
To them it 's just all " dumbed down library calls " to the low level , where the actual pointer-magic makes everything happen .
They simply do not see the meaning of the higher-level abstractions that emerge , and understanding of which is IMO the more important part to really grokking computation from the theoretical perspective.I would actually go as far as say that low-level languages in the sense of asm simply are not present in any meaningful way in a language like Lisp , and/or they are trivially contained , and the value of a supposed bottom-up approach is very suspect.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with the sentiment, but the "shell model of electrons" analogy gives too much credit to low-level languages in the programming context.
I have debated low-level programmers a lot on this, and the most fanatical of them always leave me with the feeling that they don't actually have any clue as to why higher-level languages have the kinds of entities in them that they do.
To them it's just all "dumbed down library calls" to the low level, where the actual pointer-magic makes everything happen.
They simply do not see the meaning of the higher-level abstractions that emerge, and understanding of which is IMO the more important part to really grokking computation from the theoretical perspective.I would actually go as far as say that low-level languages in the sense of asm simply are not present in any meaningful way in a language like Lisp, and/or they are trivially contained, and the value of a supposed bottom-up approach is very suspect...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565298</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567172</id>
	<title>kid basic/256 basic</title>
	<author>pyster</author>
	<datestamp>1261922460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>google kid basic. its neat.</htmltext>
<tokenext>google kid basic .
its neat .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>google kid basic.
its neat.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571244</id>
	<title>It's not the language</title>
	<author>houbou</author>
	<datestamp>1262016660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>So many languages... myself, like you, started with Apple Basic/Integer Basic, then moved up to 6502 programming and now.. well.. let's just say I've probably most languages out there.  If I was a parent today, I would want to kill 2 birds with one stone.  Use programming to further his maths skills as well as new computing skills.  If you have Microsoft Office, go that way and get him to do some VBA with Excel for his maths skills, that's especially good to get the graphs and pie charts and the algebra. That being said, ASP (not the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.net) version is available as part of the personal web server that comes with XP, so, VB comes to play again, he can leverage that as a fun introduction to web page.  Finally, get some Javascript to further his web programming skills and since JavaScript's core roots are in C/C++, eventually, you can jump to C/C++ to show him where all this high-level stuff comes from.  Anyway, I'm sure there are a lot of opinions on this, but this is what I would do.</htmltext>
<tokenext>So many languages... myself , like you , started with Apple Basic/Integer Basic , then moved up to 6502 programming and now.. well.. let 's just say I 've probably most languages out there .
If I was a parent today , I would want to kill 2 birds with one stone .
Use programming to further his maths skills as well as new computing skills .
If you have Microsoft Office , go that way and get him to do some VBA with Excel for his maths skills , that 's especially good to get the graphs and pie charts and the algebra .
That being said , ASP ( not the .net ) version is available as part of the personal web server that comes with XP , so , VB comes to play again , he can leverage that as a fun introduction to web page .
Finally , get some Javascript to further his web programming skills and since JavaScript 's core roots are in C/C + + , eventually , you can jump to C/C + + to show him where all this high-level stuff comes from .
Anyway , I 'm sure there are a lot of opinions on this , but this is what I would do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So many languages... myself, like you, started with Apple Basic/Integer Basic, then moved up to 6502 programming and now.. well.. let's just say I've probably most languages out there.
If I was a parent today, I would want to kill 2 birds with one stone.
Use programming to further his maths skills as well as new computing skills.
If you have Microsoft Office, go that way and get him to do some VBA with Excel for his maths skills, that's especially good to get the graphs and pie charts and the algebra.
That being said, ASP (not the .net) version is available as part of the personal web server that comes with XP, so, VB comes to play again, he can leverage that as a fun introduction to web page.
Finally, get some Javascript to further his web programming skills and since JavaScript's core roots are in C/C++, eventually, you can jump to C/C++ to show him where all this high-level stuff comes from.
Anyway, I'm sure there are a lot of opinions on this, but this is what I would do.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564904</id>
	<title>plain C, python, or ruby</title>
	<author>bcrowell</author>
	<datestamp>1261947300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
There's nothing particularly wrong with plain C as a first language. (I'd avoid all the intricacies of C++ syntax for a first-timer. The OO stuff is, in  my opinion, totally unnecessary for a first-time programmer to learn.)
</p><p>
Another good language for first-timers is a scripting language like python or ruby. (I like perl, but perl's syntax is goofy, and if he does want to explore OO at some point, it's better to learn it in a language that uses more standard OO syntax.) I've used python as a teaching language in the past, and it works fine.
</p><p>
One thing to think about is what programming projects he's interested in doing, and make sure he's set up for success. A lot of kids that age want to program games, but programming a real-time video game requires a *lot* of skills. Whatever project he wants to do, make sure you have a combination of OS, development environment, and libraries that will work.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's nothing particularly wrong with plain C as a first language .
( I 'd avoid all the intricacies of C + + syntax for a first-timer .
The OO stuff is , in my opinion , totally unnecessary for a first-time programmer to learn .
) Another good language for first-timers is a scripting language like python or ruby .
( I like perl , but perl 's syntax is goofy , and if he does want to explore OO at some point , it 's better to learn it in a language that uses more standard OO syntax .
) I 've used python as a teaching language in the past , and it works fine .
One thing to think about is what programming projects he 's interested in doing , and make sure he 's set up for success .
A lot of kids that age want to program games , but programming a real-time video game requires a * lot * of skills .
Whatever project he wants to do , make sure you have a combination of OS , development environment , and libraries that will work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
There's nothing particularly wrong with plain C as a first language.
(I'd avoid all the intricacies of C++ syntax for a first-timer.
The OO stuff is, in  my opinion, totally unnecessary for a first-time programmer to learn.
)

Another good language for first-timers is a scripting language like python or ruby.
(I like perl, but perl's syntax is goofy, and if he does want to explore OO at some point, it's better to learn it in a language that uses more standard OO syntax.
) I've used python as a teaching language in the past, and it works fine.
One thing to think about is what programming projects he's interested in doing, and make sure he's set up for success.
A lot of kids that age want to program games, but programming a real-time video game requires a *lot* of skills.
Whatever project he wants to do, make sure you have a combination of OS, development environment, and libraries that will work.
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566468</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>thermal\_7</author>
	<datestamp>1261916340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Great advice! I also tried to teach my son to program, but he wasn't interested. I think the 'key' is to find something he is interested in that he has to learn to program to do it.</p></div><p>Or you could find something he is interested in and let him do that. I love programming, but I see a lot of people who do it and don't like it at all and they suck. </p><p>It's not something you should choose as a career unless you really get into it IMO.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Great advice !
I also tried to teach my son to program , but he was n't interested .
I think the 'key ' is to find something he is interested in that he has to learn to program to do it.Or you could find something he is interested in and let him do that .
I love programming , but I see a lot of people who do it and do n't like it at all and they suck .
It 's not something you should choose as a career unless you really get into it IMO .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Great advice!
I also tried to teach my son to program, but he wasn't interested.
I think the 'key' is to find something he is interested in that he has to learn to program to do it.Or you could find something he is interested in and let him do that.
I love programming, but I see a lot of people who do it and don't like it at all and they suck.
It's not something you should choose as a career unless you really get into it IMO.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565050</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567756</id>
	<title>Unfortunately not Logo</title>
	<author>bar-agent</author>
	<datestamp>1261928040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd suggest Logo, but the poster said he wanted a language to lead into C/C++, and Logo will lead into a good language instead.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd suggest Logo , but the poster said he wanted a language to lead into C/C + + , and Logo will lead into a good language instead .
: - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd suggest Logo, but the poster said he wanted a language to lead into C/C++, and Logo will lead into a good language instead.
:-)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565146</id>
	<title>Logo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261905600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously.<br>You get immediate visual feedback; and it is properly structured unlike basic. Move on to pascal afterward, then C.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously.You get immediate visual feedback ; and it is properly structured unlike basic .
Move on to pascal afterward , then C .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously.You get immediate visual feedback; and it is properly structured unlike basic.
Move on to pascal afterward, then C.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30606000</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262279340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So the guy is an asshat because he was trying to introduce his son to something new?</p><p>Lighten up, Francis.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So the guy is an asshat because he was trying to introduce his son to something new ? Lighten up , Francis .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So the guy is an asshat because he was trying to introduce his son to something new?Lighten up, Francis.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564962</id>
	<title>I'm using K&amp;R</title>
	<author>notthepainter</author>
	<datestamp>1261904520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
I've signed up as a mentor to teach programming to an interested High School senior, so it isn't a 12 year old. I chose C because, frankly, it is what I know best. Java might be appropriate also but for starting out I think C is a better bet than Java. (I can't address Python since I've barely coded in it.)
</p><p>
The teacher had a copy of K&amp;R, 2nd edition on the shelf. I had them order a second copy for me. We'll start in Februray. Meeting about once a week for the rest of the term but staying in email and Skype video contact.
</p><p>
Wish us luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've signed up as a mentor to teach programming to an interested High School senior , so it is n't a 12 year old .
I chose C because , frankly , it is what I know best .
Java might be appropriate also but for starting out I think C is a better bet than Java .
( I ca n't address Python since I 've barely coded in it .
) The teacher had a copy of K&amp;R , 2nd edition on the shelf .
I had them order a second copy for me .
We 'll start in Februray .
Meeting about once a week for the rest of the term but staying in email and Skype video contact .
Wish us luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
I've signed up as a mentor to teach programming to an interested High School senior, so it isn't a 12 year old.
I chose C because, frankly, it is what I know best.
Java might be appropriate also but for starting out I think C is a better bet than Java.
(I can't address Python since I've barely coded in it.
)

The teacher had a copy of K&amp;R, 2nd edition on the shelf.
I had them order a second copy for me.
We'll start in Februray.
Meeting about once a week for the rest of the term but staying in email and Skype video contact.
Wish us luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30572276</id>
	<title>SimpleJ</title>
	<author>chochos</author>
	<datestamp>1262021940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You should take a look at <a href="http://www.simplej.org/" title="simplej.org">SimpleJ</a> [simplej.org], which was made precisely for teaching kids how to program. It emulates a simple 80's style game console and has its own language, with a Java-like syntax (but it's not OOP). The IDE allows you to run code immediately, it has a very decent debugger which shows you graphic representations of data structures such as linked lists, as well as all local and global variables, etc.</p><p>There's even an eBook, but it's in Spanish (SimpleJ is Made in Mexico). But it's free software and really cool, try it out.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You should take a look at SimpleJ [ simplej.org ] , which was made precisely for teaching kids how to program .
It emulates a simple 80 's style game console and has its own language , with a Java-like syntax ( but it 's not OOP ) .
The IDE allows you to run code immediately , it has a very decent debugger which shows you graphic representations of data structures such as linked lists , as well as all local and global variables , etc.There 's even an eBook , but it 's in Spanish ( SimpleJ is Made in Mexico ) .
But it 's free software and really cool , try it out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You should take a look at SimpleJ [simplej.org], which was made precisely for teaching kids how to program.
It emulates a simple 80's style game console and has its own language, with a Java-like syntax (but it's not OOP).
The IDE allows you to run code immediately, it has a very decent debugger which shows you graphic representations of data structures such as linked lists, as well as all local and global variables, etc.There's even an eBook, but it's in Spanish (SimpleJ is Made in Mexico).
But it's free software and really cool, try it out.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569446</id>
	<title>Agreed 110\% on Delphi... apk</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261998720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><div class="quote"><p><b>"But I tried Delphi, and fell in love with it, mostly because of it's comprehensive component library, good help and nice coding. To this day I still prefer Delphi in GUI programming unless I really have to use C, it's just a lot nicer."</b> - by sopssa (1498795) * on Sunday December 27, @02:48PM (#30564852)</p></div><p>Agreed, 110\%, on Borland Delphi (and, on ALL accounts noted in your quote above)... &amp; you are COMPLETELY CORRECT on interest: If someone does NOT have it? They'll never be "driven" to excel @ it, or to get any good @ it.</p><p>APK</p><p>P.S.=&gt; I have been programming personal computers since 1994 professionally (&amp; midrange - mainframe units for years before that in the mid to late 1980's to the early 1990's professionally &amp; academically as well), &amp; fairly "fluently" in:</p><p>1.) C<br>2.) C++<br>3.) VB.NET<br>4.) ASP.NET<br>5.) VB 3.0 - 6.0 (16/32-bit)<br>6.) Pascal (Turbo, or Delphi)<br>7.) JAVA<br>8.) X86 Assembly (via MASM usually)<br>9.) SQL (in DB oriented tools like Access or in the other RAD tools I use to talk to DB engines like ORACLE, DB/2, &amp; SQLServer)<br>10.) COBOL<br>11.) Fortran<br>12.) DOS Batch &amp; WSH/Powershell scripting</p><p>And, to this very day? <b>I'll say the SAME THING as you did quoted above about Delphi, vs. the others!</b></p><p>Especially since Delphi "piqued my interest" as far back as 1996-1997 (after I had programmed in 16-bit Delphi 1.0 on Win3.x) in 32-bit in the Sept.-Oct. 1997 issue of "Visual Basic Programmer's Journal" entitled "Inside the VB5 Compiler".</p><p>There, that competing language's trade magazine had a competition between VB5 (with its new watered-down MSVC++ 5.x compiler engine), MSVC++ 6.x, &amp; Borland Delphi 2.0? Well...</p><p><b>That's where Delphi ABSOLUTELY "SWEPT THE FLOOR" with BOTH VB &amp;/or MSVC++ in performance of the code generated, &amp; by 2-3x or more in MATH &amp; STRINGS WORK</b> (which every program does, mind you), &amp; won 4-7 tests (downplayed though this fact was, you could not hide it on the bar charts generated &amp; the editors tended to downplay this only noting it in 1 line of a 5++ page article there no less).</p><p>(Especially since its projects in Windows are pretty easily "ported instantly" to Linux also, via Kylix (Delphi for Linux), if you avoid diff.'s between Linux &amp; Win32, such as drive letters vs. mounted devices + some of the diff.'s in socket programming between Linux &amp;/or Win32)... apk</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" But I tried Delphi , and fell in love with it , mostly because of it 's comprehensive component library , good help and nice coding .
To this day I still prefer Delphi in GUI programming unless I really have to use C , it 's just a lot nicer .
" - by sopssa ( 1498795 ) * on Sunday December 27 , @ 02 : 48PM ( # 30564852 ) Agreed , 110 \ % , on Borland Delphi ( and , on ALL accounts noted in your quote above ) ... &amp; you are COMPLETELY CORRECT on interest : If someone does NOT have it ?
They 'll never be " driven " to excel @ it , or to get any good @ it.APKP.S. = &gt; I have been programming personal computers since 1994 professionally ( &amp; midrange - mainframe units for years before that in the mid to late 1980 's to the early 1990 's professionally &amp; academically as well ) , &amp; fairly " fluently " in : 1 .
) C2 .
) C + + 3 .
) VB.NET4 .
) ASP.NET5 .
) VB 3.0 - 6.0 ( 16/32-bit ) 6 .
) Pascal ( Turbo , or Delphi ) 7 .
) JAVA8 .
) X86 Assembly ( via MASM usually ) 9 .
) SQL ( in DB oriented tools like Access or in the other RAD tools I use to talk to DB engines like ORACLE , DB/2 , &amp; SQLServer ) 10 .
) COBOL11 .
) Fortran12 .
) DOS Batch &amp; WSH/Powershell scriptingAnd , to this very day ?
I 'll say the SAME THING as you did quoted above about Delphi , vs. the others ! Especially since Delphi " piqued my interest " as far back as 1996-1997 ( after I had programmed in 16-bit Delphi 1.0 on Win3.x ) in 32-bit in the Sept.-Oct. 1997 issue of " Visual Basic Programmer 's Journal " entitled " Inside the VB5 Compiler " .There , that competing language 's trade magazine had a competition between VB5 ( with its new watered-down MSVC + + 5.x compiler engine ) , MSVC + + 6.x , &amp; Borland Delphi 2.0 ?
Well...That 's where Delphi ABSOLUTELY " SWEPT THE FLOOR " with BOTH VB &amp;/or MSVC + + in performance of the code generated , &amp; by 2-3x or more in MATH &amp; STRINGS WORK ( which every program does , mind you ) , &amp; won 4-7 tests ( downplayed though this fact was , you could not hide it on the bar charts generated &amp; the editors tended to downplay this only noting it in 1 line of a 5 + + page article there no less ) .
( Especially since its projects in Windows are pretty easily " ported instantly " to Linux also , via Kylix ( Delphi for Linux ) , if you avoid diff .
's between Linux &amp; Win32 , such as drive letters vs. mounted devices + some of the diff .
's in socket programming between Linux &amp;/or Win32 ) ... apk</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"But I tried Delphi, and fell in love with it, mostly because of it's comprehensive component library, good help and nice coding.
To this day I still prefer Delphi in GUI programming unless I really have to use C, it's just a lot nicer.
" - by sopssa (1498795) * on Sunday December 27, @02:48PM (#30564852)Agreed, 110\%, on Borland Delphi (and, on ALL accounts noted in your quote above)... &amp; you are COMPLETELY CORRECT on interest: If someone does NOT have it?
They'll never be "driven" to excel @ it, or to get any good @ it.APKP.S.=&gt; I have been programming personal computers since 1994 professionally (&amp; midrange - mainframe units for years before that in the mid to late 1980's to the early 1990's professionally &amp; academically as well), &amp; fairly "fluently" in:1.
) C2.
) C++3.
) VB.NET4.
) ASP.NET5.
) VB 3.0 - 6.0 (16/32-bit)6.
) Pascal (Turbo, or Delphi)7.
) JAVA8.
) X86 Assembly (via MASM usually)9.
) SQL (in DB oriented tools like Access or in the other RAD tools I use to talk to DB engines like ORACLE, DB/2, &amp; SQLServer)10.
) COBOL11.
) Fortran12.
) DOS Batch &amp; WSH/Powershell scriptingAnd, to this very day?
I'll say the SAME THING as you did quoted above about Delphi, vs. the others!Especially since Delphi "piqued my interest" as far back as 1996-1997 (after I had programmed in 16-bit Delphi 1.0 on Win3.x) in 32-bit in the Sept.-Oct. 1997 issue of "Visual Basic Programmer's Journal" entitled "Inside the VB5 Compiler".There, that competing language's trade magazine had a competition between VB5 (with its new watered-down MSVC++ 5.x compiler engine), MSVC++ 6.x, &amp; Borland Delphi 2.0?
Well...That's where Delphi ABSOLUTELY "SWEPT THE FLOOR" with BOTH VB &amp;/or MSVC++ in performance of the code generated, &amp; by 2-3x or more in MATH &amp; STRINGS WORK (which every program does, mind you), &amp; won 4-7 tests (downplayed though this fact was, you could not hide it on the bar charts generated &amp; the editors tended to downplay this only noting it in 1 line of a 5++ page article there no less).
(Especially since its projects in Windows are pretty easily "ported instantly" to Linux also, via Kylix (Delphi for Linux), if you avoid diff.
's between Linux &amp; Win32, such as drive letters vs. mounted devices + some of the diff.
's in socket programming between Linux &amp;/or Win32)... apk
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565978</id>
	<title>I taught my little sister HTML</title>
	<author>enter to exit</author>
	<datestamp>1261912020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I realized that girls love to personalize their stationary with characters, sqiggles and poems. <br> It was a school break and i was tired of her playing stupid flash games.

 so i showed her the real basics in making a website and gave her a "HTML for dummies" book. Of course, the first page she created was to slander some of her schoolmates. <br>

I enticed her into javascript with the standard "hello the day is Monday". I was suprised at the stuff she could do with dialog boxes.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I realized that girls love to personalize their stationary with characters , sqiggles and poems .
It was a school break and i was tired of her playing stupid flash games .
so i showed her the real basics in making a website and gave her a " HTML for dummies " book .
Of course , the first page she created was to slander some of her schoolmates .
I enticed her into javascript with the standard " hello the day is Monday " .
I was suprised at the stuff she could do with dialog boxes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I realized that girls love to personalize their stationary with characters, sqiggles and poems.
It was a school break and i was tired of her playing stupid flash games.
so i showed her the real basics in making a website and gave her a "HTML for dummies" book.
Of course, the first page she created was to slander some of her schoolmates.
I enticed her into javascript with the standard "hello the day is Monday".
I was suprised at the stuff she could do with dialog boxes.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565706</id>
	<title>my experience</title>
	<author>porky\_pig\_jr</author>
	<datestamp>1261909740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I learned the basic algorithms, we used Pascal. It had just a few quirks, so you can focus on logic. Subsequently I ended up mastering both C and assembly language fairly quickly and fairly well, and those became my main languages.</p><p>Since Pascal is essentially passe, I would recommend some minimalistic interpretive language instead, like Python, as a starting point.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I learned the basic algorithms , we used Pascal .
It had just a few quirks , so you can focus on logic .
Subsequently I ended up mastering both C and assembly language fairly quickly and fairly well , and those became my main languages.Since Pascal is essentially passe , I would recommend some minimalistic interpretive language instead , like Python , as a starting point .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I learned the basic algorithms, we used Pascal.
It had just a few quirks, so you can focus on logic.
Subsequently I ended up mastering both C and assembly language fairly quickly and fairly well, and those became my main languages.Since Pascal is essentially passe, I would recommend some minimalistic interpretive language instead, like Python, as a starting point.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566638</id>
	<title>Re:Python</title>
	<author>mechsoph</author>
	<datestamp>1261917900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>LabVIEW makes easy things easy and hard things impossible.  Those responsible should be drawn and quartered.  Matlab sucks too.</htmltext>
<tokenext>LabVIEW makes easy things easy and hard things impossible .
Those responsible should be drawn and quartered .
Matlab sucks too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>LabVIEW makes easy things easy and hard things impossible.
Those responsible should be drawn and quartered.
Matlab sucks too.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565128</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565466</id>
	<title>I wasn't twelve but...</title>
	<author>KneelBeforeZod</author>
	<datestamp>1261907700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The first thing i learned to program was the TI-83 calculator.<br>The programming language was pretty simple and easy to understand.  You don't even have to make anything complicated to learn how it works.  Just write one line and run the program, see how it works, fix it, and try again.</p><p>Go for the TI-83 calc</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The first thing i learned to program was the TI-83 calculator.The programming language was pretty simple and easy to understand .
You do n't even have to make anything complicated to learn how it works .
Just write one line and run the program , see how it works , fix it , and try again.Go for the TI-83 calc</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The first thing i learned to program was the TI-83 calculator.The programming language was pretty simple and easy to understand.
You don't even have to make anything complicated to learn how it works.
Just write one line and run the program, see how it works, fix it, and try again.Go for the TI-83 calc</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566484</id>
	<title>Python vs BASIC/LOGO/C/C++/Pascal/4TRAN/Perl/Java</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261916520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Having been in this path of teaching others (youngers) programming a few times already,<br>I recommend Python in the generic case, hands down; unless you have concrete reasons for else.</p><p>Also, this document has interesting arguments in relation to why it can/has worked in practice:<br>"""<br>How applicable is Python as first computer language for teaching programming in a pre-university educational environment, from a teacher's point of view?<br>"""<br>http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.1437</p><p>In short, Python has much of C's structure and more, without the obstacles for a beginner.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Having been in this path of teaching others ( youngers ) programming a few times already,I recommend Python in the generic case , hands down ; unless you have concrete reasons for else.Also , this document has interesting arguments in relation to why it can/has worked in practice : " " " How applicable is Python as first computer language for teaching programming in a pre-university educational environment , from a teacher 's point of view ?
" " " http : //arxiv.org/abs/0809.1437In short , Python has much of C 's structure and more , without the obstacles for a beginner .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having been in this path of teaching others (youngers) programming a few times already,I recommend Python in the generic case, hands down; unless you have concrete reasons for else.Also, this document has interesting arguments in relation to why it can/has worked in practice:"""How applicable is Python as first computer language for teaching programming in a pre-university educational environment, from a teacher's point of view?
"""http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.1437In short, Python has much of C's structure and more, without the obstacles for a beginner.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565268</id>
	<title>The best language IMHO...</title>
	<author>PortHaven</author>
	<datestamp>1261906320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Adobe's ColdFusion...</p><p>Here is why...</p><p>It is very close to pseudocode, the language itself is nearly logic.</p><p>Examples:</p><p>Albeit the language is slightly more verbose. It is a rapid development language allowing for very fast production of smaller web projects. As skills develop your 12 year old can move to CFSCRIPT which is very similar to JavaScript and other C-syntax languages. But ColdFusion will allow a very easy entrance to programming concepts. Conditionals. loops and arrays. They can then progress to MVC model frameworks in ColdFusion. ColdFusion itself utilizes Java. Once they get the basics they can expand into the Java world.</p><p>I am sure there are some who will advocate going straight into a language like Java. But I think breaking up the learning of logic and the learning of syntax into two steps is very prudent in education. ColdFusion adheres closer to logic in it's syntax. It has not been super-optimized for coding efficiency.</p><p>ie: versus if(x=y)</p><p>But it's syntax is less cryptic. It is also very easy to work with SQL databases in ColdFusion. This allows the 12 yr old to start being productive much earlier than they would in something like Java. And once they have an understanding of 0the logic and design patterns they should be able to move to any syntax. Hence why I think CF is a good language. It greatly reduces syntax issues adhering very closely to logic based pseudo-code.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Adobe 's ColdFusion...Here is why...It is very close to pseudocode , the language itself is nearly logic.Examples : Albeit the language is slightly more verbose .
It is a rapid development language allowing for very fast production of smaller web projects .
As skills develop your 12 year old can move to CFSCRIPT which is very similar to JavaScript and other C-syntax languages .
But ColdFusion will allow a very easy entrance to programming concepts .
Conditionals. loops and arrays .
They can then progress to MVC model frameworks in ColdFusion .
ColdFusion itself utilizes Java .
Once they get the basics they can expand into the Java world.I am sure there are some who will advocate going straight into a language like Java .
But I think breaking up the learning of logic and the learning of syntax into two steps is very prudent in education .
ColdFusion adheres closer to logic in it 's syntax .
It has not been super-optimized for coding efficiency.ie : versus if ( x = y ) But it 's syntax is less cryptic .
It is also very easy to work with SQL databases in ColdFusion .
This allows the 12 yr old to start being productive much earlier than they would in something like Java .
And once they have an understanding of 0the logic and design patterns they should be able to move to any syntax .
Hence why I think CF is a good language .
It greatly reduces syntax issues adhering very closely to logic based pseudo-code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Adobe's ColdFusion...Here is why...It is very close to pseudocode, the language itself is nearly logic.Examples:Albeit the language is slightly more verbose.
It is a rapid development language allowing for very fast production of smaller web projects.
As skills develop your 12 year old can move to CFSCRIPT which is very similar to JavaScript and other C-syntax languages.
But ColdFusion will allow a very easy entrance to programming concepts.
Conditionals. loops and arrays.
They can then progress to MVC model frameworks in ColdFusion.
ColdFusion itself utilizes Java.
Once they get the basics they can expand into the Java world.I am sure there are some who will advocate going straight into a language like Java.
But I think breaking up the learning of logic and the learning of syntax into two steps is very prudent in education.
ColdFusion adheres closer to logic in it's syntax.
It has not been super-optimized for coding efficiency.ie: versus if(x=y)But it's syntax is less cryptic.
It is also very easy to work with SQL databases in ColdFusion.
This allows the 12 yr old to start being productive much earlier than they would in something like Java.
And once they have an understanding of 0the logic and design patterns they should be able to move to any syntax.
Hence why I think CF is a good language.
It greatly reduces syntax issues adhering very closely to logic based pseudo-code.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565016</id>
	<title>Ease in with scratch</title>
	<author>ajaxlex</author>
	<datestamp>1261904940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>MIT's Scratch  <a href="http://scratch.mit.edu/" title="mit.edu" rel="nofollow">http://scratch.mit.edu/</a> [mit.edu] is a remarkable environment that will allow for young programmers (as young as 6 and 7 ) to become familliar with subroutines, variables, conditionals, message passing, etc. in an environment that makes it easy to express things visually.  For a 12 year old, it might be worth a month of exploration in that environment, then on to a conventional language.</htmltext>
<tokenext>MIT 's Scratch http : //scratch.mit.edu/ [ mit.edu ] is a remarkable environment that will allow for young programmers ( as young as 6 and 7 ) to become familliar with subroutines , variables , conditionals , message passing , etc .
in an environment that makes it easy to express things visually .
For a 12 year old , it might be worth a month of exploration in that environment , then on to a conventional language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>MIT's Scratch  http://scratch.mit.edu/ [mit.edu] is a remarkable environment that will allow for young programmers (as young as 6 and 7 ) to become familliar with subroutines, variables, conditionals, message passing, etc.
in an environment that makes it easy to express things visually.
For a 12 year old, it might be worth a month of exploration in that environment, then on to a conventional language.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565292</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261906560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or start with the important life lesson. Teach him hex numbers and then show him how to open his favorite save game file with a hex editor and improve his cash position.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or start with the important life lesson .
Teach him hex numbers and then show him how to open his favorite save game file with a hex editor and improve his cash position .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or start with the important life lesson.
Teach him hex numbers and then show him how to open his favorite save game file with a hex editor and improve his cash position.
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566748</id>
	<title>FutureBasic</title>
	<author>johnrpenner</author>
	<datestamp>1261918980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>if you've got a mac - a great place to start is FutureBasic* - it allows you to get into programming pretty easily - get your teeth wet with the basic you know and love -- and then easily lets you get all the way to C++ and the full XCode IDE -- it supports proper recursive functions, local &amp; global variables, and a very nice integrated IDE that ties in to XCode -- allowing inline C++ and assembly language code..</p><p>FutureBasic 4.4.3:<br><a href="http://www.stazsoftware.com/futurebasic/index.php" title="stazsoftware.com">http://www.stazsoftware.com/futurebasic/index.php</a> [stazsoftware.com]</p><p>lets you get into programming pretty quickly, without spending a lot of overhead time with an undue amount of UI handling &amp; string handling code.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>if you 've got a mac - a great place to start is FutureBasic * - it allows you to get into programming pretty easily - get your teeth wet with the basic you know and love -- and then easily lets you get all the way to C + + and the full XCode IDE -- it supports proper recursive functions , local &amp; global variables , and a very nice integrated IDE that ties in to XCode -- allowing inline C + + and assembly language code..FutureBasic 4.4.3 : http : //www.stazsoftware.com/futurebasic/index.php [ stazsoftware.com ] lets you get into programming pretty quickly , without spending a lot of overhead time with an undue amount of UI handling &amp; string handling code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if you've got a mac - a great place to start is FutureBasic* - it allows you to get into programming pretty easily - get your teeth wet with the basic you know and love -- and then easily lets you get all the way to C++ and the full XCode IDE -- it supports proper recursive functions, local &amp; global variables, and a very nice integrated IDE that ties in to XCode -- allowing inline C++ and assembly language code..FutureBasic 4.4.3:http://www.stazsoftware.com/futurebasic/index.php [stazsoftware.com]lets you get into programming pretty quickly, without spending a lot of overhead time with an undue amount of UI handling &amp; string handling code.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565162</id>
	<title>The Same Way I Am</title>
	<author>Plekto</author>
	<datestamp>1261905660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My son is just turning eleven and his "wish" for his birthday is to get his own computer(his last one died a few months ago) and learn to program.</p><p>1: Linux.  Learning a in real hard-core operating environment like this is very similar to what we had to do in the 70s and 80s where everyone built their own box and had to do everything from scratch.  Also, it's a lot like those old electronics kits - you learn the basics that hard way from the ground up and you never have to worry about it later on.  That said, I suggest Mint or something fairly streamlined and possible to live-boot in case he nukes the box with his fiddling.</p><p>Also, such skills will be in great demand a decade from now when he's out of college and ready to get to work.  There are book-learned programmers and then there are those who understand the science and technology behind it as well.  This only happens if you start early and with the very basics and don't cut corners.  (that aside, it does amaze me how many computer savvy people can't even do simple things like fix a power supply - or even change the oil in their car)</p><p>2: Perl and HTML to start, then a few specific programs come to mind.  Pov-Ray is complex but also is free and requires some skills that are very useful later on.  Another good program to look at is NetHack/Angband/etc.  They are old now, but they represent a great crash-course in entry level C programming.  From there, have him work on 3-D programs ( look up "Mandelbulb" ), networking, and anything else that you can find that stresses math and programming skills over eye candy.  You can also have him work on constructing levels for older games like Unreal Tournament or Halflife later on.  Old as they are, they still are great to make mods for.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My son is just turning eleven and his " wish " for his birthday is to get his own computer ( his last one died a few months ago ) and learn to program.1 : Linux .
Learning a in real hard-core operating environment like this is very similar to what we had to do in the 70s and 80s where everyone built their own box and had to do everything from scratch .
Also , it 's a lot like those old electronics kits - you learn the basics that hard way from the ground up and you never have to worry about it later on .
That said , I suggest Mint or something fairly streamlined and possible to live-boot in case he nukes the box with his fiddling.Also , such skills will be in great demand a decade from now when he 's out of college and ready to get to work .
There are book-learned programmers and then there are those who understand the science and technology behind it as well .
This only happens if you start early and with the very basics and do n't cut corners .
( that aside , it does amaze me how many computer savvy people ca n't even do simple things like fix a power supply - or even change the oil in their car ) 2 : Perl and HTML to start , then a few specific programs come to mind .
Pov-Ray is complex but also is free and requires some skills that are very useful later on .
Another good program to look at is NetHack/Angband/etc .
They are old now , but they represent a great crash-course in entry level C programming .
From there , have him work on 3-D programs ( look up " Mandelbulb " ) , networking , and anything else that you can find that stresses math and programming skills over eye candy .
You can also have him work on constructing levels for older games like Unreal Tournament or Halflife later on .
Old as they are , they still are great to make mods for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My son is just turning eleven and his "wish" for his birthday is to get his own computer(his last one died a few months ago) and learn to program.1: Linux.
Learning a in real hard-core operating environment like this is very similar to what we had to do in the 70s and 80s where everyone built their own box and had to do everything from scratch.
Also, it's a lot like those old electronics kits - you learn the basics that hard way from the ground up and you never have to worry about it later on.
That said, I suggest Mint or something fairly streamlined and possible to live-boot in case he nukes the box with his fiddling.Also, such skills will be in great demand a decade from now when he's out of college and ready to get to work.
There are book-learned programmers and then there are those who understand the science and technology behind it as well.
This only happens if you start early and with the very basics and don't cut corners.
(that aside, it does amaze me how many computer savvy people can't even do simple things like fix a power supply - or even change the oil in their car)2: Perl and HTML to start, then a few specific programs come to mind.
Pov-Ray is complex but also is free and requires some skills that are very useful later on.
Another good program to look at is NetHack/Angband/etc.
They are old now, but they represent a great crash-course in entry level C programming.
From there, have him work on 3-D programs ( look up "Mandelbulb" ), networking, and anything else that you can find that stresses math and programming skills over eye candy.
You can also have him work on constructing levels for older games like Unreal Tournament or Halflife later on.
Old as they are, they still are great to make mods for.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569504</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>definate</author>
	<datestamp>1262000040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thank you, the first sensible response yet.</p><p>I think, most people, but especially the nerd crowd, have way too high a locus of control and perhaps too little an understanding of personality and psychology.</p><p>The amount of parents who I have known in IT or similar engineering fields, who attempted to control/engineer their childs future which ended in disaster is staggering. When you attempt to control and force your children into doing something, they don't want to do, over time, you're likely to see them act out more.</p><p>These people need to become a lot more zen, and realize there is no good or bad (within reasonable limits), and that they actually have little control. Instead by exercising less control, they are more likely to attain the results they were hoping to achieve in the first place.</p><p>This doesn't mean you shouldn't guide, just that it should not be with a heavy hand, and instead perhaps you should let them guide you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thank you , the first sensible response yet.I think , most people , but especially the nerd crowd , have way too high a locus of control and perhaps too little an understanding of personality and psychology.The amount of parents who I have known in IT or similar engineering fields , who attempted to control/engineer their childs future which ended in disaster is staggering .
When you attempt to control and force your children into doing something , they do n't want to do , over time , you 're likely to see them act out more.These people need to become a lot more zen , and realize there is no good or bad ( within reasonable limits ) , and that they actually have little control .
Instead by exercising less control , they are more likely to attain the results they were hoping to achieve in the first place.This does n't mean you should n't guide , just that it should not be with a heavy hand , and instead perhaps you should let them guide you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thank you, the first sensible response yet.I think, most people, but especially the nerd crowd, have way too high a locus of control and perhaps too little an understanding of personality and psychology.The amount of parents who I have known in IT or similar engineering fields, who attempted to control/engineer their childs future which ended in disaster is staggering.
When you attempt to control and force your children into doing something, they don't want to do, over time, you're likely to see them act out more.These people need to become a lot more zen, and realize there is no good or bad (within reasonable limits), and that they actually have little control.
Instead by exercising less control, they are more likely to attain the results they were hoping to achieve in the first place.This doesn't mean you shouldn't guide, just that it should not be with a heavy hand, and instead perhaps you should let them guide you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567912</id>
	<title>python gaming book</title>
	<author>Sark666</author>
	<datestamp>1261929780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just stumbled upon this today.  Not sure how good the book is but found it linked today on <a href="http://pygame.org/" title="pygame.org">http://pygame.org/</a> [pygame.org]</p><p><a href="http://inventwithpython.com/" title="inventwithpython.com">http://inventwithpython.com/</a> [inventwithpython.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just stumbled upon this today .
Not sure how good the book is but found it linked today on http : //pygame.org/ [ pygame.org ] http : //inventwithpython.com/ [ inventwithpython.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just stumbled upon this today.
Not sure how good the book is but found it linked today on http://pygame.org/ [pygame.org]http://inventwithpython.com/ [inventwithpython.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568604</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261939860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Where do girls who talk to themselves fall on this spectrum?</p><p>Good programmer or lousy programmer?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Where do girls who talk to themselves fall on this spectrum ? Good programmer or lousy programmer ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where do girls who talk to themselves fall on this spectrum?Good programmer or lousy programmer?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568652</id>
	<title>Re:plain C, python, or ruby</title>
	<author>jhol13</author>
	<datestamp>1261940760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There's nothing particularly wrong with plain C as a first language.</p></div><p>Yes, there is. Several. The worst is that it is compiled.</p><p>I'd start from a language which has a shell, i.e. you can try out commands one by one. and see what each of them do.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's nothing particularly wrong with plain C as a first language.Yes , there is .
Several. The worst is that it is compiled.I 'd start from a language which has a shell , i.e .
you can try out commands one by one .
and see what each of them do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's nothing particularly wrong with plain C as a first language.Yes, there is.
Several. The worst is that it is compiled.I'd start from a language which has a shell, i.e.
you can try out commands one by one.
and see what each of them do.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564904</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570998</id>
	<title>LEGO</title>
	<author>HikingStick</author>
	<datestamp>1262015400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Get him hooked on Lego robotics sets.  Logo (if they are still using it) is not that hard to master), and it can be a doorway to broader programming interests.<br> <br>Helping him start his own web page with some JavaScript or other dynamic items could be another way.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Get him hooked on Lego robotics sets .
Logo ( if they are still using it ) is not that hard to master ) , and it can be a doorway to broader programming interests .
Helping him start his own web page with some JavaScript or other dynamic items could be another way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get him hooked on Lego robotics sets.
Logo (if they are still using it) is not that hard to master), and it can be a doorway to broader programming interests.
Helping him start his own web page with some JavaScript or other dynamic items could be another way.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566246</id>
	<title>Alice?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261914240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What about Alice? It goes all the way from simple movies with 3D objects to basic games.<br>www.alice.org</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What about Alice ?
It goes all the way from simple movies with 3D objects to basic games.www.alice.org</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What about Alice?
It goes all the way from simple movies with 3D objects to basic games.www.alice.org</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568232</id>
	<title>Learned to program when I was 7-9 years ago myself</title>
	<author>DaphneDiane</author>
	<datestamp>1261933980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I got introduced to computers december '79 on the old commodore pets. Since most stuff was in basic back then I started messing around with existing programs, and quickly learned how do stuff like edit the number of lives in the pac-man and asteroid clones we had for the machine. I messed with other programs and typed in programs from the computer magazines of the day, and eventually wrote my first complete program at 9 (an learning tic-tac-toe program), which I ended up showing off at a computer show. Found out about copyrights at the same fair when I got in trouble for printing out the source-code for someones robotron-style game because I wanted to see how it worked. After basic I learned 6502/Z80 and Pascal (nothing quite like going from 3rd grade to a college class studying pascal on teletypes and old dec terminals), and eventually played with Logo, C, Fortran, C++, Occam etc.. through out the rest of my primary school years.</p><p>Anyways my suggestion is start with existing open source programs (games or amusement type software would be great) and let your brother mess around with them for a bit. As much as C / C++ are powerful and useful an interpretative language were the results of any changes made can be seen quickly is good. Old school emulators with some basic programs, or stuff written in javascript may be good starts, or better yet if they play games that support scripted addons let them play with some of those. For example addons for World of Warcraft are written in LUA.</p><p>Getting used to programming is more important than which language, once one language is learned jumping to a new language is only a little more work, especially for similar languages. The biggest differences when switching languages are language type (procedural, object oriented, or data-flow), type strictness (loose/strict typing), memory management (garbage collected, manual or mixed), structure (structured or spagetti), parsing (compiled, or interpretive). While it's better to learn stuff like memory management, structural and object oriented programming early, it can still be learned after getting a feel for programming. At least that was true for me, my earliest programs were horrible spagetti with mixtures of basic and assembly.</p><p>I'd wait on stuff like design patterns and other meta concepts of programming, they make a lot more sense after someone has learned to program and wants to hone their craft.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I got introduced to computers december '79 on the old commodore pets .
Since most stuff was in basic back then I started messing around with existing programs , and quickly learned how do stuff like edit the number of lives in the pac-man and asteroid clones we had for the machine .
I messed with other programs and typed in programs from the computer magazines of the day , and eventually wrote my first complete program at 9 ( an learning tic-tac-toe program ) , which I ended up showing off at a computer show .
Found out about copyrights at the same fair when I got in trouble for printing out the source-code for someones robotron-style game because I wanted to see how it worked .
After basic I learned 6502/Z80 and Pascal ( nothing quite like going from 3rd grade to a college class studying pascal on teletypes and old dec terminals ) , and eventually played with Logo , C , Fortran , C + + , Occam etc.. through out the rest of my primary school years.Anyways my suggestion is start with existing open source programs ( games or amusement type software would be great ) and let your brother mess around with them for a bit .
As much as C / C + + are powerful and useful an interpretative language were the results of any changes made can be seen quickly is good .
Old school emulators with some basic programs , or stuff written in javascript may be good starts , or better yet if they play games that support scripted addons let them play with some of those .
For example addons for World of Warcraft are written in LUA.Getting used to programming is more important than which language , once one language is learned jumping to a new language is only a little more work , especially for similar languages .
The biggest differences when switching languages are language type ( procedural , object oriented , or data-flow ) , type strictness ( loose/strict typing ) , memory management ( garbage collected , manual or mixed ) , structure ( structured or spagetti ) , parsing ( compiled , or interpretive ) .
While it 's better to learn stuff like memory management , structural and object oriented programming early , it can still be learned after getting a feel for programming .
At least that was true for me , my earliest programs were horrible spagetti with mixtures of basic and assembly.I 'd wait on stuff like design patterns and other meta concepts of programming , they make a lot more sense after someone has learned to program and wants to hone their craft .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I got introduced to computers december '79 on the old commodore pets.
Since most stuff was in basic back then I started messing around with existing programs, and quickly learned how do stuff like edit the number of lives in the pac-man and asteroid clones we had for the machine.
I messed with other programs and typed in programs from the computer magazines of the day, and eventually wrote my first complete program at 9 (an learning tic-tac-toe program), which I ended up showing off at a computer show.
Found out about copyrights at the same fair when I got in trouble for printing out the source-code for someones robotron-style game because I wanted to see how it worked.
After basic I learned 6502/Z80 and Pascal (nothing quite like going from 3rd grade to a college class studying pascal on teletypes and old dec terminals), and eventually played with Logo, C, Fortran, C++, Occam etc.. through out the rest of my primary school years.Anyways my suggestion is start with existing open source programs (games or amusement type software would be great) and let your brother mess around with them for a bit.
As much as C / C++ are powerful and useful an interpretative language were the results of any changes made can be seen quickly is good.
Old school emulators with some basic programs, or stuff written in javascript may be good starts, or better yet if they play games that support scripted addons let them play with some of those.
For example addons for World of Warcraft are written in LUA.Getting used to programming is more important than which language, once one language is learned jumping to a new language is only a little more work, especially for similar languages.
The biggest differences when switching languages are language type (procedural, object oriented, or data-flow), type strictness (loose/strict typing), memory management (garbage collected, manual or mixed), structure (structured or spagetti), parsing (compiled, or interpretive).
While it's better to learn stuff like memory management, structural and object oriented programming early, it can still be learned after getting a feel for programming.
At least that was true for me, my earliest programs were horrible spagetti with mixtures of basic and assembly.I'd wait on stuff like design patterns and other meta concepts of programming, they make a lot more sense after someone has learned to program and wants to hone their craft.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567362</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Waldeinburg</author>
	<datestamp>1261924260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Use the project to select the language, not the other way around.</p></div></blockquote><p>
I agree! Every programming language I have ever learned started with a project as motivation: I wanted to make computergames - I learned C64 BASIC; C64 turned out to be hard to program but I still wanted to make games - I learned QBASIC; I wanted to make a website - I learned HTML; I wanted to make my computer collect information from some homebuild electronic device - I learned C... and so on.<br>
So: Instead of asking your brother if he wants to learn programming, ask him: "Wouldn't it be cool if &lt;insert really cool idea&gt;?"</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Use the project to select the language , not the other way around .
I agree !
Every programming language I have ever learned started with a project as motivation : I wanted to make computergames - I learned C64 BASIC ; C64 turned out to be hard to program but I still wanted to make games - I learned QBASIC ; I wanted to make a website - I learned HTML ; I wanted to make my computer collect information from some homebuild electronic device - I learned C... and so on .
So : Instead of asking your brother if he wants to learn programming , ask him : " Would n't it be cool if ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Use the project to select the language, not the other way around.
I agree!
Every programming language I have ever learned started with a project as motivation: I wanted to make computergames - I learned C64 BASIC; C64 turned out to be hard to program but I still wanted to make games - I learned QBASIC; I wanted to make a website - I learned HTML; I wanted to make my computer collect information from some homebuild electronic device - I learned C... and so on.
So: Instead of asking your brother if he wants to learn programming, ask him: "Wouldn't it be cool if ?
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565050</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565250</id>
	<title>Get him an OLPC</title>
	<author>Antique Geekmeister</author>
	<datestamp>1261906260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He'll have a fascinating device, he'll learn lessons in morals and human ethics for the entire world, and he'll learn more about how things work in both software and hardware than any Windows/Microsoft environment can teach him. It also won't run the latest Windows shooter games, but will allow useful browsing, networking, and access to data to actually do programming with.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He 'll have a fascinating device , he 'll learn lessons in morals and human ethics for the entire world , and he 'll learn more about how things work in both software and hardware than any Windows/Microsoft environment can teach him .
It also wo n't run the latest Windows shooter games , but will allow useful browsing , networking , and access to data to actually do programming with .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He'll have a fascinating device, he'll learn lessons in morals and human ethics for the entire world, and he'll learn more about how things work in both software and hardware than any Windows/Microsoft environment can teach him.
It also won't run the latest Windows shooter games, but will allow useful browsing, networking, and access to data to actually do programming with.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569668</id>
	<title>Autohotkey - The Good and Bad</title>
	<author>Mr Pleco</author>
	<datestamp>1262003220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I always always tell people who want programming experience to pick a language that they can do something with.</p><p>I'm assuming these things based on that he's 12 and interested in programming:<br>1) He's interested in computers so probably spends a lot of time on them<br>2) If he's spending a lot of time on them then he's likely got a favorite game or two<br>3) If he spends any significant time playing these games then he's likely interested in making tools/macros for these games</p><p>AHK (autohotkey) is probably one of the easiest game macro languages out there and that's beside the fact that you can use it for other stuff. My favorite feature is that it's loosely typed, so it's much easier to master initially, though debugging can be a pain because of this. The forums are very useful with a very dedicated community and the API is EXCELLENT, but there's no tutorials that I know of extensively devoted to learning to program using AHK. The most important thing I think you can note about this is that it can help him teach himself how to program, which is very important if he wants to move into other languages later. If memory serves it's also coded and extendable in C, so there's a natural extension into "real world" languages there.</p><p>So there's good things and bad things about using AHK, but it's the one I pick for people looking to learn the basics of programming.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I always always tell people who want programming experience to pick a language that they can do something with.I 'm assuming these things based on that he 's 12 and interested in programming : 1 ) He 's interested in computers so probably spends a lot of time on them2 ) If he 's spending a lot of time on them then he 's likely got a favorite game or two3 ) If he spends any significant time playing these games then he 's likely interested in making tools/macros for these gamesAHK ( autohotkey ) is probably one of the easiest game macro languages out there and that 's beside the fact that you can use it for other stuff .
My favorite feature is that it 's loosely typed , so it 's much easier to master initially , though debugging can be a pain because of this .
The forums are very useful with a very dedicated community and the API is EXCELLENT , but there 's no tutorials that I know of extensively devoted to learning to program using AHK .
The most important thing I think you can note about this is that it can help him teach himself how to program , which is very important if he wants to move into other languages later .
If memory serves it 's also coded and extendable in C , so there 's a natural extension into " real world " languages there.So there 's good things and bad things about using AHK , but it 's the one I pick for people looking to learn the basics of programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I always always tell people who want programming experience to pick a language that they can do something with.I'm assuming these things based on that he's 12 and interested in programming:1) He's interested in computers so probably spends a lot of time on them2) If he's spending a lot of time on them then he's likely got a favorite game or two3) If he spends any significant time playing these games then he's likely interested in making tools/macros for these gamesAHK (autohotkey) is probably one of the easiest game macro languages out there and that's beside the fact that you can use it for other stuff.
My favorite feature is that it's loosely typed, so it's much easier to master initially, though debugging can be a pain because of this.
The forums are very useful with a very dedicated community and the API is EXCELLENT, but there's no tutorials that I know of extensively devoted to learning to program using AHK.
The most important thing I think you can note about this is that it can help him teach himself how to program, which is very important if he wants to move into other languages later.
If memory serves it's also coded and extendable in C, so there's a natural extension into "real world" languages there.So there's good things and bad things about using AHK, but it's the one I pick for people looking to learn the basics of programming.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570072</id>
	<title>re</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262008980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I started programming Visual Basic (acctually vba) and html when I was 10.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I started programming Visual Basic ( acctually vba ) and html when I was 10 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started programming Visual Basic (acctually vba) and html when I was 10.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565936</id>
	<title>easier paths have less competition</title>
	<author>bzipitidoo</author>
	<datestamp>1261911780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How competitive is the family?

</p><p>My father is mechanically inclined.  Always working on cars.  I was never allowed to compete with him there.  He does not understand programming at all, so it was a safe direction for me to explore without his interference, him always telling me I wasn't doing it right, always looking over my shoulder, criticizing, etc.  When working on cars, it gets real old real fast when he laughs at you for occasionally having to think about which way to turn a nut.  He never missed any opportunity to demonstrate that the old man is still The Man when it comes to cars.

</p><p>My younger brother might have been a good programmer, except that he couldn't stand being 2nd fiddle to me, and maybe I made it less bearable.  He went as far as getting a Commodore 64, because it wasn't an Apple II which is what I started on.  But he went no further.  He did not become a expert Commodore hacker, as I was an expert Apple hacker.  He passed by all the sciences and engineering, and went into finance and politics.  He certainly could have done some engineering or science.  There were plenty we had only passing acquaintance with, things like civil engineering, astronomy, or chemistry, to say nothing of medicine.  A waste, perhaps?  He perceived what society valued.  I am perhaps more idealistic, and think too much about what society should value.  He's richer than I am.  He has a wife and children, and I do not.  Well of course it isn't that simple, and there are many other reasons why things turned out the way they did.  But it's a factor.

</p><p>So, asking which programming language is easiest could be misguided.  You will tend to pick among what you know and like.  Maybe the chief criteria should be what you don't know, so that you can't be an interfering know-it-all who can show him up anytime you want.  If you know little of web programming, or even databases and SQL, then maybe little brother will take to it.  Sounds crazy to even think of SQL?  It's certainly a mess, with dozens of SQL dialects and proprietary extensions, and there is much that cannot be done in SQL.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How competitive is the family ?
My father is mechanically inclined .
Always working on cars .
I was never allowed to compete with him there .
He does not understand programming at all , so it was a safe direction for me to explore without his interference , him always telling me I was n't doing it right , always looking over my shoulder , criticizing , etc .
When working on cars , it gets real old real fast when he laughs at you for occasionally having to think about which way to turn a nut .
He never missed any opportunity to demonstrate that the old man is still The Man when it comes to cars .
My younger brother might have been a good programmer , except that he could n't stand being 2nd fiddle to me , and maybe I made it less bearable .
He went as far as getting a Commodore 64 , because it was n't an Apple II which is what I started on .
But he went no further .
He did not become a expert Commodore hacker , as I was an expert Apple hacker .
He passed by all the sciences and engineering , and went into finance and politics .
He certainly could have done some engineering or science .
There were plenty we had only passing acquaintance with , things like civil engineering , astronomy , or chemistry , to say nothing of medicine .
A waste , perhaps ?
He perceived what society valued .
I am perhaps more idealistic , and think too much about what society should value .
He 's richer than I am .
He has a wife and children , and I do not .
Well of course it is n't that simple , and there are many other reasons why things turned out the way they did .
But it 's a factor .
So , asking which programming language is easiest could be misguided .
You will tend to pick among what you know and like .
Maybe the chief criteria should be what you do n't know , so that you ca n't be an interfering know-it-all who can show him up anytime you want .
If you know little of web programming , or even databases and SQL , then maybe little brother will take to it .
Sounds crazy to even think of SQL ?
It 's certainly a mess , with dozens of SQL dialects and proprietary extensions , and there is much that can not be done in SQL .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How competitive is the family?
My father is mechanically inclined.
Always working on cars.
I was never allowed to compete with him there.
He does not understand programming at all, so it was a safe direction for me to explore without his interference, him always telling me I wasn't doing it right, always looking over my shoulder, criticizing, etc.
When working on cars, it gets real old real fast when he laughs at you for occasionally having to think about which way to turn a nut.
He never missed any opportunity to demonstrate that the old man is still The Man when it comes to cars.
My younger brother might have been a good programmer, except that he couldn't stand being 2nd fiddle to me, and maybe I made it less bearable.
He went as far as getting a Commodore 64, because it wasn't an Apple II which is what I started on.
But he went no further.
He did not become a expert Commodore hacker, as I was an expert Apple hacker.
He passed by all the sciences and engineering, and went into finance and politics.
He certainly could have done some engineering or science.
There were plenty we had only passing acquaintance with, things like civil engineering, astronomy, or chemistry, to say nothing of medicine.
A waste, perhaps?
He perceived what society valued.
I am perhaps more idealistic, and think too much about what society should value.
He's richer than I am.
He has a wife and children, and I do not.
Well of course it isn't that simple, and there are many other reasons why things turned out the way they did.
But it's a factor.
So, asking which programming language is easiest could be misguided.
You will tend to pick among what you know and like.
Maybe the chief criteria should be what you don't know, so that you can't be an interfering know-it-all who can show him up anytime you want.
If you know little of web programming, or even databases and SQL, then maybe little brother will take to it.
Sounds crazy to even think of SQL?
It's certainly a mess, with dozens of SQL dialects and proprietary extensions, and there is much that cannot be done in SQL.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567662</id>
	<title>I've built an 80s era 'lab' to teach my son</title>
	<author>RonMcMahon</author>
	<datestamp>1261927140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I hate the fact that there is SO much intermediation between the keyboard and the actual machine in our current computing environment (when it comes to teaching the fundamentals of computer programming).  I doubt that our programming models will ever actually return to the intimate connection to hardware of the 80s, which is fine, but when it comes to teaching the fundamentals of the interaction between the instructions and the actual machine / chips there is a lot less between you and the machine when developing in an 8-bit world.  A single wrong character can bring the whole system to a halt, or cause really unexpected behaviours that are often not seen in our compiled / checked / verified modern programming environments.  There is also a lot less help from the system in developing, so if you do take to it, it is because you enjoy the challenge despite the obsticles and clear limitations of 20-year-old hardware.<br> <br>I've built up a 'lab' with old Atari, and Commodore 8-bit machines.  My son is learning Atari and Commodore Basic and Atari LOGO.  For Christmas he wrote a Christmas greeting in Atari LOGO, which really required him to dig in to recursion and integrating the application's behaviour in to an internal mental model, so I'd call this approach a success.<br> <br>I find it interesting to see the comments on PYGAME here...I'll have to investigate as eventually I'll want him to move to the next level where he is using 'modern' languages once he groks the basics and wants to do something that he can share with his peers via email.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I hate the fact that there is SO much intermediation between the keyboard and the actual machine in our current computing environment ( when it comes to teaching the fundamentals of computer programming ) .
I doubt that our programming models will ever actually return to the intimate connection to hardware of the 80s , which is fine , but when it comes to teaching the fundamentals of the interaction between the instructions and the actual machine / chips there is a lot less between you and the machine when developing in an 8-bit world .
A single wrong character can bring the whole system to a halt , or cause really unexpected behaviours that are often not seen in our compiled / checked / verified modern programming environments .
There is also a lot less help from the system in developing , so if you do take to it , it is because you enjoy the challenge despite the obsticles and clear limitations of 20-year-old hardware .
I 've built up a 'lab ' with old Atari , and Commodore 8-bit machines .
My son is learning Atari and Commodore Basic and Atari LOGO .
For Christmas he wrote a Christmas greeting in Atari LOGO , which really required him to dig in to recursion and integrating the application 's behaviour in to an internal mental model , so I 'd call this approach a success .
I find it interesting to see the comments on PYGAME here...I 'll have to investigate as eventually I 'll want him to move to the next level where he is using 'modern ' languages once he groks the basics and wants to do something that he can share with his peers via email .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hate the fact that there is SO much intermediation between the keyboard and the actual machine in our current computing environment (when it comes to teaching the fundamentals of computer programming).
I doubt that our programming models will ever actually return to the intimate connection to hardware of the 80s, which is fine, but when it comes to teaching the fundamentals of the interaction between the instructions and the actual machine / chips there is a lot less between you and the machine when developing in an 8-bit world.
A single wrong character can bring the whole system to a halt, or cause really unexpected behaviours that are often not seen in our compiled / checked / verified modern programming environments.
There is also a lot less help from the system in developing, so if you do take to it, it is because you enjoy the challenge despite the obsticles and clear limitations of 20-year-old hardware.
I've built up a 'lab' with old Atari, and Commodore 8-bit machines.
My son is learning Atari and Commodore Basic and Atari LOGO.
For Christmas he wrote a Christmas greeting in Atari LOGO, which really required him to dig in to recursion and integrating the application's behaviour in to an internal mental model, so I'd call this approach a success.
I find it interesting to see the comments on PYGAME here...I'll have to investigate as eventually I'll want him to move to the next level where he is using 'modern' languages once he groks the basics and wants to do something that he can share with his peers via email.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567804</id>
	<title>Re:HTML and Javascript</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261928460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>WTF?  HTML is a MARK-UP language, not a programming language.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>WTF ?
HTML is a MARK-UP language , not a programming language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>WTF?
HTML is a MARK-UP language, not a programming language.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566004</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566296</id>
	<title>Visual Basic</title>
	<author>Bensam123</author>
	<datestamp>1261914720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm going to be the heathen here and outright suggest Visual Basic. Even if it's far from the best coding language and it has it's quirks, you get to SEE and INTERACT with what you make. It's not a bunch of gibberish on the screen and that's something a lot of people need to learn in the beginning.<br><br>A lot of you need to keep in mind that people who like to code are a very select group. You have to be interested in things you can't actually touch and that require mind numbing amounts of logical work. That isn't something a whole lot of people can handle. A language that is easy to code in by a coders standards still doesn't mean it's good for a beginner. More then likely the OP brother will have no interest in coding at all.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm going to be the heathen here and outright suggest Visual Basic .
Even if it 's far from the best coding language and it has it 's quirks , you get to SEE and INTERACT with what you make .
It 's not a bunch of gibberish on the screen and that 's something a lot of people need to learn in the beginning.A lot of you need to keep in mind that people who like to code are a very select group .
You have to be interested in things you ca n't actually touch and that require mind numbing amounts of logical work .
That is n't something a whole lot of people can handle .
A language that is easy to code in by a coders standards still does n't mean it 's good for a beginner .
More then likely the OP brother will have no interest in coding at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm going to be the heathen here and outright suggest Visual Basic.
Even if it's far from the best coding language and it has it's quirks, you get to SEE and INTERACT with what you make.
It's not a bunch of gibberish on the screen and that's something a lot of people need to learn in the beginning.A lot of you need to keep in mind that people who like to code are a very select group.
You have to be interested in things you can't actually touch and that require mind numbing amounts of logical work.
That isn't something a whole lot of people can handle.
A language that is easy to code in by a coders standards still doesn't mean it's good for a beginner.
More then likely the OP brother will have no interest in coding at all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566566</id>
	<title>I'd love to get low-level with him</title>
	<author>mr\_lizard13</author>
	<datestamp>1261917180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I'd love to get low-level with him, and I firmly believe that C is the best language to eventually learn</p></div><p>
There's something more Basic than that.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd love to get low-level with him , and I firmly believe that C is the best language to eventually learn There 's something more Basic than that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd love to get low-level with him, and I firmly believe that C is the best language to eventually learn
There's something more Basic than that.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566762</id>
	<title>Kid languages</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261919100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>LOGO is easy to learn with - they have versions for just about every OS out there.</p><p>BASIC is the old standby - I learned with PET BASIC, then APPLE BASIC - I'd get an Apple ][ emulator, and have at it...  On the lighter side, there's a ton of kick ass games that run on the Apple ][ - sure they don't compare to the FPS, but hey - when you can play Temple of Apshai or Miner 2049'er or Karateka, what else do you need?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>LOGO is easy to learn with - they have versions for just about every OS out there.BASIC is the old standby - I learned with PET BASIC , then APPLE BASIC - I 'd get an Apple ] [ emulator , and have at it... On the lighter side , there 's a ton of kick ass games that run on the Apple ] [ - sure they do n't compare to the FPS , but hey - when you can play Temple of Apshai or Miner 2049'er or Karateka , what else do you need ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>LOGO is easy to learn with - they have versions for just about every OS out there.BASIC is the old standby - I learned with PET BASIC, then APPLE BASIC - I'd get an Apple ][ emulator, and have at it...  On the lighter side, there's a ton of kick ass games that run on the Apple ][ - sure they don't compare to the FPS, but hey - when you can play Temple of Apshai or Miner 2049'er or Karateka, what else do you need?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566166</id>
	<title>C++</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261913640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I did C++ at the age of 11 or 12, such as your brother. I took interest in a book my father had brought home - it had the title "101 C++ examples" but the author slips my mind. It helped a lot in the first year of university - the very first course there was nothing new to me. However, beware, nowadays C++ is all about templates, you're probably better off with pure C.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I did C + + at the age of 11 or 12 , such as your brother .
I took interest in a book my father had brought home - it had the title " 101 C + + examples " but the author slips my mind .
It helped a lot in the first year of university - the very first course there was nothing new to me .
However , beware , nowadays C + + is all about templates , you 're probably better off with pure C .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I did C++ at the age of 11 or 12, such as your brother.
I took interest in a book my father had brought home - it had the title "101 C++ examples" but the author slips my mind.
It helped a lot in the first year of university - the very first course there was nothing new to me.
However, beware, nowadays C++ is all about templates, you're probably better off with pure C.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566730</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>electrosoccertux</author>
	<datestamp>1261918740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I found my TI-83+ plenty motivating during my boring math classes (boring because I already knew, or was able to pick up very quickly, the new stuff we were learning).<br>So I created a bunch of programs to solve all the things we were going to cover on the test. My teacher said if I had programmed them, I could use them.<br>So I got to finish my test in 5 minutes and twiddle my thumbs while everybody else worked<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:). I wrote exhaustive programs that covered every single possible option or method that I would need to use for solving various stuffs. So it was just a matter of navigating through the menu, punching in the correct values, and writing down the answer. That was fun, also hats off to the teacher for not penalizing (but rather rewarding) creativity.<br>I wouldn't worry about the fact that basic can be a mess-- he won't be creating anything large enough that matters. I usually knew what I wanted to program and could get it out pretty quick-- didn't need to bother with organization or "good coding practices". The important thing was that I began performing the mental exercise of having a nebulous need, and translating that into code, given the available options (IF, THEN, ELSE, STORE, etc). I tried picking up C++ when I was 12 but the syntax requirements were just far too much detail for me and were a huge barrier to entry. Basic didn't have any of that.</p><p>Then of course your kid can sell the programs to other students for whatever they're willing to pay.<br>It will be an important lesson for him-- he will find, at a very young age, what I did-- that people expect your computer skills and work and coding for free, and get frustrated when you tell them they have to pay (even just $5, in my case) for it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I found my TI-83 + plenty motivating during my boring math classes ( boring because I already knew , or was able to pick up very quickly , the new stuff we were learning ) .So I created a bunch of programs to solve all the things we were going to cover on the test .
My teacher said if I had programmed them , I could use them.So I got to finish my test in 5 minutes and twiddle my thumbs while everybody else worked : ) .
I wrote exhaustive programs that covered every single possible option or method that I would need to use for solving various stuffs .
So it was just a matter of navigating through the menu , punching in the correct values , and writing down the answer .
That was fun , also hats off to the teacher for not penalizing ( but rather rewarding ) creativity.I would n't worry about the fact that basic can be a mess-- he wo n't be creating anything large enough that matters .
I usually knew what I wanted to program and could get it out pretty quick-- did n't need to bother with organization or " good coding practices " .
The important thing was that I began performing the mental exercise of having a nebulous need , and translating that into code , given the available options ( IF , THEN , ELSE , STORE , etc ) .
I tried picking up C + + when I was 12 but the syntax requirements were just far too much detail for me and were a huge barrier to entry .
Basic did n't have any of that.Then of course your kid can sell the programs to other students for whatever they 're willing to pay.It will be an important lesson for him-- he will find , at a very young age , what I did-- that people expect your computer skills and work and coding for free , and get frustrated when you tell them they have to pay ( even just $ 5 , in my case ) for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I found my TI-83+ plenty motivating during my boring math classes (boring because I already knew, or was able to pick up very quickly, the new stuff we were learning).So I created a bunch of programs to solve all the things we were going to cover on the test.
My teacher said if I had programmed them, I could use them.So I got to finish my test in 5 minutes and twiddle my thumbs while everybody else worked :).
I wrote exhaustive programs that covered every single possible option or method that I would need to use for solving various stuffs.
So it was just a matter of navigating through the menu, punching in the correct values, and writing down the answer.
That was fun, also hats off to the teacher for not penalizing (but rather rewarding) creativity.I wouldn't worry about the fact that basic can be a mess-- he won't be creating anything large enough that matters.
I usually knew what I wanted to program and could get it out pretty quick-- didn't need to bother with organization or "good coding practices".
The important thing was that I began performing the mental exercise of having a nebulous need, and translating that into code, given the available options (IF, THEN, ELSE, STORE, etc).
I tried picking up C++ when I was 12 but the syntax requirements were just far too much detail for me and were a huge barrier to entry.
Basic didn't have any of that.Then of course your kid can sell the programs to other students for whatever they're willing to pay.It will be an important lesson for him-- he will find, at a very young age, what I did-- that people expect your computer skills and work and coding for free, and get frustrated when you tell them they have to pay (even just $5, in my case) for it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565050</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566388</id>
	<title>Alice</title>
	<author>lawpoop</author>
	<datestamp>1261915620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Do they want to "learn programming", or do they want to make video games? ( Or do *you* want them to learn programming? ) If they want to make video games, have them check out <a href="http://www.alice.org/" title="alice.org">Alice</a> [alice.org]. They'll make a video game and learn to program as a bonus. For middle-school aged people, there is <a href="http://www.alice.org/kelleher/storytelling/index.html" title="alice.org">Storytelling Alice</a> [alice.org], which is pretty powerful in its own right, in terms of a teaching tool.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do they want to " learn programming " , or do they want to make video games ?
( Or do * you * want them to learn programming ?
) If they want to make video games , have them check out Alice [ alice.org ] .
They 'll make a video game and learn to program as a bonus .
For middle-school aged people , there is Storytelling Alice [ alice.org ] , which is pretty powerful in its own right , in terms of a teaching tool .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do they want to "learn programming", or do they want to make video games?
( Or do *you* want them to learn programming?
) If they want to make video games, have them check out Alice [alice.org].
They'll make a video game and learn to program as a bonus.
For middle-school aged people, there is Storytelling Alice [alice.org], which is pretty powerful in its own right, in terms of a teaching tool.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565196</id>
	<title>Re:Visual Basic</title>
	<author>gringer</author>
	<datestamp>1261905840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I really hope you were being sarcastic with that. That code is not good for grammar / syntax &mdash; it has no obvious start point, comments look like unbalanced quotations, and there are subroutines that only set string values to an empty string.</p><p>[add to that my personal preference for end-of-line markers, and brackets / braces to surround statement blocks (without them, it's like sentences without commas and full stops)]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I really hope you were being sarcastic with that .
That code is not good for grammar / syntax    it has no obvious start point , comments look like unbalanced quotations , and there are subroutines that only set string values to an empty string .
[ add to that my personal preference for end-of-line markers , and brackets / braces to surround statement blocks ( without them , it 's like sentences without commas and full stops ) ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I really hope you were being sarcastic with that.
That code is not good for grammar / syntax — it has no obvious start point, comments look like unbalanced quotations, and there are subroutines that only set string values to an empty string.
[add to that my personal preference for end-of-line markers, and brackets / braces to surround statement blocks (without them, it's like sentences without commas and full stops)]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565392</id>
	<title>VB6 on WinXP</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261907220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Visual Basic, preferably 6.0, preferably running on XP.</p><p>If he takes to VB, then that can lead him easily enough to C.  With full access to the API there is not much that VB6 cannot do that C can, including pointers, raw memory blocks, pointers into raw memory blocks, subclassing, etc.  I don't program much anymore, so I'm not sure what VB.NET gives you programatic access to in a Win7 environment.</p><p>If he takes to using the VB-&gt;API bits, then something like OpenWatcom, which can lead him into DLL programming without getting him dependent on MS' Visual Studio interface.  The reason being that if you're familiar with other IDEs, you can get accustomed to VS, the corollary is not necessarily true.</p><p>With that said, don't pressure him.  Keep it fun for him and back off if he shows no interest.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Visual Basic , preferably 6.0 , preferably running on XP.If he takes to VB , then that can lead him easily enough to C. With full access to the API there is not much that VB6 can not do that C can , including pointers , raw memory blocks , pointers into raw memory blocks , subclassing , etc .
I do n't program much anymore , so I 'm not sure what VB.NET gives you programatic access to in a Win7 environment.If he takes to using the VB- &gt; API bits , then something like OpenWatcom , which can lead him into DLL programming without getting him dependent on MS ' Visual Studio interface .
The reason being that if you 're familiar with other IDEs , you can get accustomed to VS , the corollary is not necessarily true.With that said , do n't pressure him .
Keep it fun for him and back off if he shows no interest .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Visual Basic, preferably 6.0, preferably running on XP.If he takes to VB, then that can lead him easily enough to C.  With full access to the API there is not much that VB6 cannot do that C can, including pointers, raw memory blocks, pointers into raw memory blocks, subclassing, etc.
I don't program much anymore, so I'm not sure what VB.NET gives you programatic access to in a Win7 environment.If he takes to using the VB-&gt;API bits, then something like OpenWatcom, which can lead him into DLL programming without getting him dependent on MS' Visual Studio interface.
The reason being that if you're familiar with other IDEs, you can get accustomed to VS, the corollary is not necessarily true.With that said, don't pressure him.
Keep it fun for him and back off if he shows no interest.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564998</id>
	<title>Cold, hard X86 Assembly.</title>
	<author>Rod Beauvex</author>
	<datestamp>1261904760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>You don't want to raise a sissy, do you? DO YOU?!<br>
<br><nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D</htmltext>
<tokenext>You do n't want to raise a sissy , do you ?
DO YOU ? !
: D</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You don't want to raise a sissy, do you?
DO YOU?!
:D</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569076</id>
	<title>Re:My strategy with my 2 kids</title>
	<author>Rikiji7</author>
	<datestamp>1261991160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>romantic...</htmltext>
<tokenext>romantic.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>romantic...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565748</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565828</id>
	<title>Interpreted</title>
	<author>frisket</author>
	<datestamp>1261910880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>An interpreted language for sure -- Python is a good choice, but not the only one. Adding the complexities of compiling and linking are wholly unnecessary for a beginner. And preferably something with a decent development interface. But as already noted, only if he's interested. If he's not, buy him something physical and extensible instead (eg Lego)</htmltext>
<tokenext>An interpreted language for sure -- Python is a good choice , but not the only one .
Adding the complexities of compiling and linking are wholly unnecessary for a beginner .
And preferably something with a decent development interface .
But as already noted , only if he 's interested .
If he 's not , buy him something physical and extensible instead ( eg Lego )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An interpreted language for sure -- Python is a good choice, but not the only one.
Adding the complexities of compiling and linking are wholly unnecessary for a beginner.
And preferably something with a decent development interface.
But as already noted, only if he's interested.
If he's not, buy him something physical and extensible instead (eg Lego)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565748</id>
	<title>My strategy with my 2 kids</title>
	<author>caywen</author>
	<datestamp>1261910100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have two babies and I'm always wondering how I'd teach them programming. The conclusion I came to is that I won't. Instead, I'll give them a computer and let them take their own path. For all I know, they'd eschew the programming, but go on to become amazing digital artists.</p><p>If they are truly interested, they'll find C, or Java, or whatever, all by themselves. And daddy will be there to guide them along that path after they've found it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have two babies and I 'm always wondering how I 'd teach them programming .
The conclusion I came to is that I wo n't .
Instead , I 'll give them a computer and let them take their own path .
For all I know , they 'd eschew the programming , but go on to become amazing digital artists.If they are truly interested , they 'll find C , or Java , or whatever , all by themselves .
And daddy will be there to guide them along that path after they 've found it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have two babies and I'm always wondering how I'd teach them programming.
The conclusion I came to is that I won't.
Instead, I'll give them a computer and let them take their own path.
For all I know, they'd eschew the programming, but go on to become amazing digital artists.If they are truly interested, they'll find C, or Java, or whatever, all by themselves.
And daddy will be there to guide them along that path after they've found it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30572380</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>DuckDodgers</author>
	<datestamp>1262022300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You wrote your response as though the previous person wrote "I also tried to teach my son to program, but he wasn't interested.  So I beat him and made him learn it anyway."  Since that's not what they actually wrote, you wrote an obnoxious response for no reason.<br> <br>
Secondly, believe it or not children don't know everything.   If you take a kid with no interest in wrestling or playing piano and have him attend wrestling practice or piano practice, he may decide he dislikes both.  But he may develop an enjoyment of one or both and want to continue by his own choice.  There are plenty of interesting activities - technological or not - that the kid actually has to start doing before they decide if they like it.  You can't just describe swimming, or origami, or debate, or playing guitar in general terms and believe your child has made an informed decision whether to participate.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You wrote your response as though the previous person wrote " I also tried to teach my son to program , but he was n't interested .
So I beat him and made him learn it anyway .
" Since that 's not what they actually wrote , you wrote an obnoxious response for no reason .
Secondly , believe it or not children do n't know everything .
If you take a kid with no interest in wrestling or playing piano and have him attend wrestling practice or piano practice , he may decide he dislikes both .
But he may develop an enjoyment of one or both and want to continue by his own choice .
There are plenty of interesting activities - technological or not - that the kid actually has to start doing before they decide if they like it .
You ca n't just describe swimming , or origami , or debate , or playing guitar in general terms and believe your child has made an informed decision whether to participate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You wrote your response as though the previous person wrote "I also tried to teach my son to program, but he wasn't interested.
So I beat him and made him learn it anyway.
"  Since that's not what they actually wrote, you wrote an obnoxious response for no reason.
Secondly, believe it or not children don't know everything.
If you take a kid with no interest in wrestling or playing piano and have him attend wrestling practice or piano practice, he may decide he dislikes both.
But he may develop an enjoyment of one or both and want to continue by his own choice.
There are plenty of interesting activities - technological or not - that the kid actually has to start doing before they decide if they like it.
You can't just describe swimming, or origami, or debate, or playing guitar in general terms and believe your child has made an informed decision whether to participate.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565032</id>
	<title>No, no.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261905000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Speaking as a programmer who followed that "royal road" of BASIC-&gt;Pascal-&gt;C-&gt;and beyond<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.... But that was 25-30 years ago!</p><p>Today: Lead him AWAY from C/C++ and towards VHLLs (you choose, there are so many good examples).</p><p>In fact *start* with a VHLL. Scheme would not be bad. There are plenty of other suggestions in other comments.</p><p>Imperative programming can be a limiting paradigm and difficult to grow beyond. It is better, imho, to be exposed to a variety of paradigms, especially functional and declarative, early in the learning process.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Speaking as a programmer who followed that " royal road " of BASIC- &gt; Pascal- &gt; C- &gt; and beyond .... But that was 25-30 years ago ! Today : Lead him AWAY from C/C + + and towards VHLLs ( you choose , there are so many good examples ) .In fact * start * with a VHLL .
Scheme would not be bad .
There are plenty of other suggestions in other comments.Imperative programming can be a limiting paradigm and difficult to grow beyond .
It is better , imho , to be exposed to a variety of paradigms , especially functional and declarative , early in the learning process .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Speaking as a programmer who followed that "royal road" of BASIC-&gt;Pascal-&gt;C-&gt;and beyond .... But that was 25-30 years ago!Today: Lead him AWAY from C/C++ and towards VHLLs (you choose, there are so many good examples).In fact *start* with a VHLL.
Scheme would not be bad.
There are plenty of other suggestions in other comments.Imperative programming can be a limiting paradigm and difficult to grow beyond.
It is better, imho, to be exposed to a variety of paradigms, especially functional and declarative, early in the learning process.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569280</id>
	<title>programmers game</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261994940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you decide in favor of Java, definitely try http://robocode.sourceforge.net/ - idea is that you have to program a tank. It will drive, shoot, scan for opponents etc.... There is even lighter API for junior programmers.<br>This is very fun, even for adult programmers<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you decide in favor of Java , definitely try http : //robocode.sourceforge.net/ - idea is that you have to program a tank .
It will drive , shoot , scan for opponents etc.... There is even lighter API for junior programmers.This is very fun , even for adult programmers : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you decide in favor of Java, definitely try http://robocode.sourceforge.net/ - idea is that you have to program a tank.
It will drive, shoot, scan for opponents etc.... There is even lighter API for junior programmers.This is very fun, even for adult programmers :)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565810</id>
	<title>teaching kids to program can be disappointing</title>
	<author>OrangeTide</author>
	<datestamp>1261910700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't be disappointed when your kids (or little brother in this case) is far less interested in programming than you are. You may never be able to inspire a kid to like coding as much as you like it yourself.</p><p>It can be really tough to share your favorite hobby/occupation with a kid and not have him/her respond with the same passion for it that you had at that age. This happens to musician parents who try to teach their kid music and find out their kid just isn't that interested. And it is no different for us programmers.</p><p>Sometimes a child will express an interest in programming. But don't be fooled, asking you about it is not the same as having a passion for it. And don't get upset if down the road the child wants to do something else instead. Be happy that they had any interest at all in the things you enjoy!</p><p>Just make it fun and let the kid drive the direction of the teaching. You cannot rush this. If you try to dump decades of experience onto a kid in a few weekends it will seem like work to both of you. If the kid turns out to be serious classes or computer camp or something where they can learn and socialize with peers can be a great way for them to keep going forward and improve their skills.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't be disappointed when your kids ( or little brother in this case ) is far less interested in programming than you are .
You may never be able to inspire a kid to like coding as much as you like it yourself.It can be really tough to share your favorite hobby/occupation with a kid and not have him/her respond with the same passion for it that you had at that age .
This happens to musician parents who try to teach their kid music and find out their kid just is n't that interested .
And it is no different for us programmers.Sometimes a child will express an interest in programming .
But do n't be fooled , asking you about it is not the same as having a passion for it .
And do n't get upset if down the road the child wants to do something else instead .
Be happy that they had any interest at all in the things you enjoy ! Just make it fun and let the kid drive the direction of the teaching .
You can not rush this .
If you try to dump decades of experience onto a kid in a few weekends it will seem like work to both of you .
If the kid turns out to be serious classes or computer camp or something where they can learn and socialize with peers can be a great way for them to keep going forward and improve their skills .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't be disappointed when your kids (or little brother in this case) is far less interested in programming than you are.
You may never be able to inspire a kid to like coding as much as you like it yourself.It can be really tough to share your favorite hobby/occupation with a kid and not have him/her respond with the same passion for it that you had at that age.
This happens to musician parents who try to teach their kid music and find out their kid just isn't that interested.
And it is no different for us programmers.Sometimes a child will express an interest in programming.
But don't be fooled, asking you about it is not the same as having a passion for it.
And don't get upset if down the road the child wants to do something else instead.
Be happy that they had any interest at all in the things you enjoy!Just make it fun and let the kid drive the direction of the teaching.
You cannot rush this.
If you try to dump decades of experience onto a kid in a few weekends it will seem like work to both of you.
If the kid turns out to be serious classes or computer camp or something where they can learn and socialize with peers can be a great way for them to keep going forward and improve their skills.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566068</id>
	<title>Rethink it, then point him at Scratch or Bootstrap</title>
	<author>technik</author>
	<datestamp>1261912740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Stop; don't do it. Your love of programming doesn't automatically make you a good teacher and layering inexperience on the ingrained patterns of behaviour between brothers will be a problem. Next assess if you want him to learn or if he wants to learn. If it's the first, consider that strike three.</p><p>Now, assuming he actually wants to learn and approached you for advice, start him with something fun like Bootstrap, http://www.bootstrapworld.org/, based on Scheme, or Scratch, http://scratch.mit.edu/Smalltalk, based on Smalltalk. He'll learn fundamentals in a well-designed language and have a community of educators and students to interact with.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Stop ; do n't do it .
Your love of programming does n't automatically make you a good teacher and layering inexperience on the ingrained patterns of behaviour between brothers will be a problem .
Next assess if you want him to learn or if he wants to learn .
If it 's the first , consider that strike three.Now , assuming he actually wants to learn and approached you for advice , start him with something fun like Bootstrap , http : //www.bootstrapworld.org/ , based on Scheme , or Scratch , http : //scratch.mit.edu/Smalltalk , based on Smalltalk .
He 'll learn fundamentals in a well-designed language and have a community of educators and students to interact with .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stop; don't do it.
Your love of programming doesn't automatically make you a good teacher and layering inexperience on the ingrained patterns of behaviour between brothers will be a problem.
Next assess if you want him to learn or if he wants to learn.
If it's the first, consider that strike three.Now, assuming he actually wants to learn and approached you for advice, start him with something fun like Bootstrap, http://www.bootstrapworld.org/, based on Scheme, or Scratch, http://scratch.mit.edu/Smalltalk, based on Smalltalk.
He'll learn fundamentals in a well-designed language and have a community of educators and students to interact with.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568688</id>
	<title>Its the economy stupid...</title>
	<author>flyingfsck</author>
	<datestamp>1261941600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Maybe, if you want him to be a programmer, you should first teach him how to say: "Ya want fries wizzat?"</htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe , if you want him to be a programmer , you should first teach him how to say : " Ya want fries wizzat ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe, if you want him to be a programmer, you should first teach him how to say: "Ya want fries wizzat?
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566182</id>
	<title>Let him learn the way we all learned...</title>
	<author>Dunbal</author>
	<datestamp>1261913760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Buy him an IBM PC XT, load up MS DOS 2 or so (I think it still came with MASM back then), give him a copy of colossal cave adventure, trek, and lots of soda. Eventually thrown in some BASICA and a few programs he can read the source from by doing Ctrl-C. When he burns in sunlight and/or has a body mass index of 30+, buy him a C compiler (preferably Borland Turbo C). Then confuse him by throwing both the Windows GUI, MFC AND OOP at him at the same time.</p><p>If he makes it to 20+ without a heart attack, you'll have a coder on your hands.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Buy him an IBM PC XT , load up MS DOS 2 or so ( I think it still came with MASM back then ) , give him a copy of colossal cave adventure , trek , and lots of soda .
Eventually thrown in some BASICA and a few programs he can read the source from by doing Ctrl-C. When he burns in sunlight and/or has a body mass index of 30 + , buy him a C compiler ( preferably Borland Turbo C ) .
Then confuse him by throwing both the Windows GUI , MFC AND OOP at him at the same time.If he makes it to 20 + without a heart attack , you 'll have a coder on your hands .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Buy him an IBM PC XT, load up MS DOS 2 or so (I think it still came with MASM back then), give him a copy of colossal cave adventure, trek, and lots of soda.
Eventually thrown in some BASICA and a few programs he can read the source from by doing Ctrl-C. When he burns in sunlight and/or has a body mass index of 30+, buy him a C compiler (preferably Borland Turbo C).
Then confuse him by throwing both the Windows GUI, MFC AND OOP at him at the same time.If he makes it to 20+ without a heart attack, you'll have a coder on your hands.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568558</id>
	<title>JAVA</title>
	<author>dezekiel</author>
	<datestamp>1261939320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The colleges around my area want you to know Java, Java, and more Java. So my vote would be JAVA!</htmltext>
<tokenext>The colleges around my area want you to know Java , Java , and more Java .
So my vote would be JAVA !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The colleges around my area want you to know Java, Java, and more Java.
So my vote would be JAVA!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571064</id>
	<title>Let me guess....</title>
	<author>Capt James McCarthy</author>
	<datestamp>1262015760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The housing and banking failures where put on to faulty software because it did not stop the idiot carbon-based units from committing acts of stupidity.</p><p>So there are programmer(s) unable to predict future unforeseen events in his/her/their code and it's considered a failure.  You can never predict the actions of idiots.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The housing and banking failures where put on to faulty software because it did not stop the idiot carbon-based units from committing acts of stupidity.So there are programmer ( s ) unable to predict future unforeseen events in his/her/their code and it 's considered a failure .
You can never predict the actions of idiots .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The housing and banking failures where put on to faulty software because it did not stop the idiot carbon-based units from committing acts of stupidity.So there are programmer(s) unable to predict future unforeseen events in his/her/their code and it's considered a failure.
You can never predict the actions of idiots.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30575406</id>
	<title>AutoHotKey</title>
	<author>aaycumi</author>
	<datestamp>1261993380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I started a while ago before actually starting python and raking my brain out on project euler, I started with a simple scripting language called AutoHotKey for Windows (any).
It is extremely easy and took next to no time to learn. It helped me get my head around programming rather than throwing someone in the deep end.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I started a while ago before actually starting python and raking my brain out on project euler , I started with a simple scripting language called AutoHotKey for Windows ( any ) .
It is extremely easy and took next to no time to learn .
It helped me get my head around programming rather than throwing someone in the deep end .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I started a while ago before actually starting python and raking my brain out on project euler, I started with a simple scripting language called AutoHotKey for Windows (any).
It is extremely easy and took next to no time to learn.
It helped me get my head around programming rather than throwing someone in the deep end.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566580</id>
	<title>An old-fashioned suggestion</title>
	<author>snStarter</author>
	<datestamp>1261917300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If he is numerical at all, a programmable pocket calculator might be an interesting place. Why do I suggest this? Because it has all the fundamentals with branching and testing with an emphasis on getting the logic right, but without all the syntax issues. Unfortunately he's a little young to have run into reasons he might need to actually use a pocket calculator.</p><p>There is also Squeak. As I recall the designers were really interested in getting kids to work with programming. So dufus named Alan Kay is involved - what the heck does HE know? But I see you're a big C advocate and Squeak and Smalltalk are about as fall away from C as is humanly possible without going to Lisp.</p><p>And, since Lisp came up, you might consider Logo whose turtle graphics module allows for some really neat complex graphics.</p><p>Even a system-wide scripting language such as AppleScript on the Mac would let him work with major software packages in a programmable method.</p><p>But, really, it's up to you to work with him. I have to think working together would be great for both of you -- any one-on-one time with your kids, showing your passion for your vocation, has to be a good thing IF you're patient, trusting, and can be playful.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If he is numerical at all , a programmable pocket calculator might be an interesting place .
Why do I suggest this ?
Because it has all the fundamentals with branching and testing with an emphasis on getting the logic right , but without all the syntax issues .
Unfortunately he 's a little young to have run into reasons he might need to actually use a pocket calculator.There is also Squeak .
As I recall the designers were really interested in getting kids to work with programming .
So dufus named Alan Kay is involved - what the heck does HE know ?
But I see you 're a big C advocate and Squeak and Smalltalk are about as fall away from C as is humanly possible without going to Lisp.And , since Lisp came up , you might consider Logo whose turtle graphics module allows for some really neat complex graphics.Even a system-wide scripting language such as AppleScript on the Mac would let him work with major software packages in a programmable method.But , really , it 's up to you to work with him .
I have to think working together would be great for both of you -- any one-on-one time with your kids , showing your passion for your vocation , has to be a good thing IF you 're patient , trusting , and can be playful .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If he is numerical at all, a programmable pocket calculator might be an interesting place.
Why do I suggest this?
Because it has all the fundamentals with branching and testing with an emphasis on getting the logic right, but without all the syntax issues.
Unfortunately he's a little young to have run into reasons he might need to actually use a pocket calculator.There is also Squeak.
As I recall the designers were really interested in getting kids to work with programming.
So dufus named Alan Kay is involved - what the heck does HE know?
But I see you're a big C advocate and Squeak and Smalltalk are about as fall away from C as is humanly possible without going to Lisp.And, since Lisp came up, you might consider Logo whose turtle graphics module allows for some really neat complex graphics.Even a system-wide scripting language such as AppleScript on the Mac would let him work with major software packages in a programmable method.But, really, it's up to you to work with him.
I have to think working together would be great for both of you -- any one-on-one time with your kids, showing your passion for your vocation, has to be a good thing IF you're patient, trusting, and can be playful.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569506</id>
	<title>Try Game Maker</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262000100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It doesn't really start out as programming, with it's drag and drop 'actions', but teaches programming perfectly. What's more; it's fun, and you see directly what you're doing (creating epic games without too much hassle). Later on, he can use the programming language of Game Maker, GML, which is loosely based on C++.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It does n't really start out as programming , with it 's drag and drop 'actions ' , but teaches programming perfectly .
What 's more ; it 's fun , and you see directly what you 're doing ( creating epic games without too much hassle ) .
Later on , he can use the programming language of Game Maker , GML , which is loosely based on C + + .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It doesn't really start out as programming, with it's drag and drop 'actions', but teaches programming perfectly.
What's more; it's fun, and you see directly what you're doing (creating epic games without too much hassle).
Later on, he can use the programming language of Game Maker, GML, which is loosely based on C++.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564848</id>
	<title>Python</title>
	<author>stoolpigeon</author>
	<datestamp>1261946880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Python is multiplatform and is free.  There are quite a few free tools and libraries available.  It is a 'real' language that is at the same time suitable for youngsters to learn on.  With the huge Python ecosystem that exists you can have them cranking out code in a text editor, an interpreter or a full blown IDE. (A wide number of them in fact).  Python also makes for a nice bridge to C as it pretty easy to <a href="http://docs.python.org/c-api/" title="python.org">integrate the two</a> [python.org].  If you feel competent, you could probably just hit the Python docs and work your way through them.  If you'd like a little help and have material already prepared for teaching younger people how to program with Python, there are resources out there.<br>
&nbsp; <br>I recommend <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&amp;location=http\%3A\%2F\%2Fwww.amazon.com\%2Fgp\%2Fproduct\%2F1933988495\%3Fie\%3DUTF8\%26ref\_\%3Dsr\_1\_2\%26s\%3Dbooks\%26qid\%3D1261941901\%26sr\%3D8-2&amp;tag=01071969-20&amp;linkCode=ur2&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325" title="amazon.com">Hello World!</a> [amazon.com] which uses Python.  (You can read my full <a href="http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/07/13/1349203/Hello-World?art\_pos=2" title="slashdot.org">review of it here</a> [slashdot.org].)<br>
&nbsp; <br>If you don't want to buy a book, then you may want to look at <a href="http://inventwithpython.com/" title="inventwithpython.com">Invent Your Own Computer Games with Python 2nd ed.</a> [inventwithpython.com]  I haven't read it myself yet, and a quick glance showed it to have some rough edges, but one can't be too picky at that price.  It is available to download or read online.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Python is multiplatform and is free .
There are quite a few free tools and libraries available .
It is a 'real ' language that is at the same time suitable for youngsters to learn on .
With the huge Python ecosystem that exists you can have them cranking out code in a text editor , an interpreter or a full blown IDE .
( A wide number of them in fact ) .
Python also makes for a nice bridge to C as it pretty easy to integrate the two [ python.org ] .
If you feel competent , you could probably just hit the Python docs and work your way through them .
If you 'd like a little help and have material already prepared for teaching younger people how to program with Python , there are resources out there .
  I recommend Hello World !
[ amazon.com ] which uses Python .
( You can read my full review of it here [ slashdot.org ] .
)   If you do n't want to buy a book , then you may want to look at Invent Your Own Computer Games with Python 2nd ed .
[ inventwithpython.com ] I have n't read it myself yet , and a quick glance showed it to have some rough edges , but one ca n't be too picky at that price .
It is available to download or read online .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Python is multiplatform and is free.
There are quite a few free tools and libraries available.
It is a 'real' language that is at the same time suitable for youngsters to learn on.
With the huge Python ecosystem that exists you can have them cranking out code in a text editor, an interpreter or a full blown IDE.
(A wide number of them in fact).
Python also makes for a nice bridge to C as it pretty easy to integrate the two [python.org].
If you feel competent, you could probably just hit the Python docs and work your way through them.
If you'd like a little help and have material already prepared for teaching younger people how to program with Python, there are resources out there.
  I recommend Hello World!
[amazon.com] which uses Python.
(You can read my full review of it here [slashdot.org].
)
  If you don't want to buy a book, then you may want to look at Invent Your Own Computer Games with Python 2nd ed.
[inventwithpython.com]  I haven't read it myself yet, and a quick glance showed it to have some rough edges, but one can't be too picky at that price.
It is available to download or read online.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565202</id>
	<title>Find something more interesting than text</title>
	<author>mdarksbane</author>
	<datestamp>1261905900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I highly recommend teaching basic principles in whatever random scripting language you can do something *interesting* in. There are a few different systems online that allow you to script "bugs" or "tanks" or whatever kind of character around a map. They use a simple scripting language that will at least handle loops, control statements, and the concepts of variables and methods. More importantly, they give the new learner *immediate* feedback on what they're doing. Or you could go more into the physical world, and start in Interactive-C and Lego.</p><p>The most important thing when you're first learning any skill is getting immediate "fun" reinforcement out of it. No matter what language you learn, it's going to be a lot harder to stick with it if all you can *do* with the language is print out text on a command line. Once they're doing interesting things in their wimpy scripting language, give them a harder problem that is a pain in the butt to do in that simple language, and show them how a more powerful language (and more powerful concepts, like object oriented programming) can help them do it.</p><p>IMO, people worry far too much about teaching good design or a specific language early. Get them thinking about problems like a programmer first, then start showing them how good design or a different languge will make those problems easier to solve.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I highly recommend teaching basic principles in whatever random scripting language you can do something * interesting * in .
There are a few different systems online that allow you to script " bugs " or " tanks " or whatever kind of character around a map .
They use a simple scripting language that will at least handle loops , control statements , and the concepts of variables and methods .
More importantly , they give the new learner * immediate * feedback on what they 're doing .
Or you could go more into the physical world , and start in Interactive-C and Lego.The most important thing when you 're first learning any skill is getting immediate " fun " reinforcement out of it .
No matter what language you learn , it 's going to be a lot harder to stick with it if all you can * do * with the language is print out text on a command line .
Once they 're doing interesting things in their wimpy scripting language , give them a harder problem that is a pain in the butt to do in that simple language , and show them how a more powerful language ( and more powerful concepts , like object oriented programming ) can help them do it.IMO , people worry far too much about teaching good design or a specific language early .
Get them thinking about problems like a programmer first , then start showing them how good design or a different languge will make those problems easier to solve .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I highly recommend teaching basic principles in whatever random scripting language you can do something *interesting* in.
There are a few different systems online that allow you to script "bugs" or "tanks" or whatever kind of character around a map.
They use a simple scripting language that will at least handle loops, control statements, and the concepts of variables and methods.
More importantly, they give the new learner *immediate* feedback on what they're doing.
Or you could go more into the physical world, and start in Interactive-C and Lego.The most important thing when you're first learning any skill is getting immediate "fun" reinforcement out of it.
No matter what language you learn, it's going to be a lot harder to stick with it if all you can *do* with the language is print out text on a command line.
Once they're doing interesting things in their wimpy scripting language, give them a harder problem that is a pain in the butt to do in that simple language, and show them how a more powerful language (and more powerful concepts, like object oriented programming) can help them do it.IMO, people worry far too much about teaching good design or a specific language early.
Get them thinking about problems like a programmer first, then start showing them how good design or a different languge will make those problems easier to solve.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30573150</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262025480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, you idiot.  Programming is an absolutely essential tool for just about any profession and will continue to get exponentially more important until it saturates as being as necessary as reading and writing.  It's not just about being a software developer.  Every branch of engineering uses some form of programming or otherwise formal language description for digital processing for one reason or another.  Every branch of science, no matter how "soft", eventually has to use some form of data processing which is best done by programming a computer.  You can't run a business of any but the most trivial of scales without being able to tell a computer to do some of the work for you, and the best way to do this is to know how to program.  A gigantic portion of the broad, ill-defined field of activities categorized as art will use some form of programming for some task, whether it's controlling any dynamic form of art with programmable electronics, or rendering computer-generated art, or processing video and audio, or working with computer-controlled machines that make physical objects, and so on.</p><p>If you're <em>able</em> to help teach your child how to program and you don't, you're guilty of negligence.  Programming will be an essential ability in the developed world by the time they're grown up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , you idiot .
Programming is an absolutely essential tool for just about any profession and will continue to get exponentially more important until it saturates as being as necessary as reading and writing .
It 's not just about being a software developer .
Every branch of engineering uses some form of programming or otherwise formal language description for digital processing for one reason or another .
Every branch of science , no matter how " soft " , eventually has to use some form of data processing which is best done by programming a computer .
You ca n't run a business of any but the most trivial of scales without being able to tell a computer to do some of the work for you , and the best way to do this is to know how to program .
A gigantic portion of the broad , ill-defined field of activities categorized as art will use some form of programming for some task , whether it 's controlling any dynamic form of art with programmable electronics , or rendering computer-generated art , or processing video and audio , or working with computer-controlled machines that make physical objects , and so on.If you 're able to help teach your child how to program and you do n't , you 're guilty of negligence .
Programming will be an essential ability in the developed world by the time they 're grown up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, you idiot.
Programming is an absolutely essential tool for just about any profession and will continue to get exponentially more important until it saturates as being as necessary as reading and writing.
It's not just about being a software developer.
Every branch of engineering uses some form of programming or otherwise formal language description for digital processing for one reason or another.
Every branch of science, no matter how "soft", eventually has to use some form of data processing which is best done by programming a computer.
You can't run a business of any but the most trivial of scales without being able to tell a computer to do some of the work for you, and the best way to do this is to know how to program.
A gigantic portion of the broad, ill-defined field of activities categorized as art will use some form of programming for some task, whether it's controlling any dynamic form of art with programmable electronics, or rendering computer-generated art, or processing video and audio, or working with computer-controlled machines that make physical objects, and so on.If you're able to help teach your child how to program and you don't, you're guilty of negligence.
Programming will be an essential ability in the developed world by the time they're grown up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565764</id>
	<title>Scratch from MIT</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261910160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Try "scratch" it's a simple graphical language.</p><p>I find that the problem with most languages is that children want simple ways to do "cool" stuff. No one gets excited with plain text</p><p>
&nbsp; http://scratch.mit.edu/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Try " scratch " it 's a simple graphical language.I find that the problem with most languages is that children want simple ways to do " cool " stuff .
No one gets excited with plain text   http : //scratch.mit.edu/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Try "scratch" it's a simple graphical language.I find that the problem with most languages is that children want simple ways to do "cool" stuff.
No one gets excited with plain text
  http://scratch.mit.edu/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565024</id>
	<title>Game Maker 8</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261905000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just released and has potential to make programs along with games.  Can also do 3D for the advanced crowd.  Very easy to program with.  Can begin with drag &amp; drop actions to easily learn structure.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just released and has potential to make programs along with games .
Can also do 3D for the advanced crowd .
Very easy to program with .
Can begin with drag &amp; drop actions to easily learn structure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just released and has potential to make programs along with games.
Can also do 3D for the advanced crowd.
Very easy to program with.
Can begin with drag &amp; drop actions to easily learn structure.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566492</id>
	<title>Interactive interpreted languages</title>
	<author>Nitewing98</author>
	<datestamp>1261916580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree with most people here, but for a different reason, I think.  Any scripting language is interpreted rather than compiled.  I think compilation is difficult for beginners to understand.  A good interactive interpreted language gives quick results so it encourages them to "experiment." I learned with BASIC and LOGO, but I'd also recommend Python or even Applescript or shell scripting (dos or linux) - those are all "quick result" languages that allow him to see that he is controlling things happening on the screen.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with most people here , but for a different reason , I think .
Any scripting language is interpreted rather than compiled .
I think compilation is difficult for beginners to understand .
A good interactive interpreted language gives quick results so it encourages them to " experiment .
" I learned with BASIC and LOGO , but I 'd also recommend Python or even Applescript or shell scripting ( dos or linux ) - those are all " quick result " languages that allow him to see that he is controlling things happening on the screen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with most people here, but for a different reason, I think.
Any scripting language is interpreted rather than compiled.
I think compilation is difficult for beginners to understand.
A good interactive interpreted language gives quick results so it encourages them to "experiment.
" I learned with BASIC and LOGO, but I'd also recommend Python or even Applescript or shell scripting (dos or linux) - those are all "quick result" languages that allow him to see that he is controlling things happening on the screen.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567296</id>
	<title>What the hell is your problem?</title>
	<author>pclminion</author>
	<datestamp>1261923600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>"I'd love to teach him how to program"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... "Lead him down a path"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... What the hell is your problem? It's a human being, not a parakeet. He's not a plaything to amuse yourself with or a piece of clay to mold however is most entertaining for you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" I 'd love to teach him how to program " ... " Lead him down a path " ... What the hell is your problem ?
It 's a human being , not a parakeet .
He 's not a plaything to amuse yourself with or a piece of clay to mold however is most entertaining for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"I'd love to teach him how to program" ... "Lead him down a path" ... What the hell is your problem?
It's a human being, not a parakeet.
He's not a plaything to amuse yourself with or a piece of clay to mold however is most entertaining for you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567338</id>
	<title>Re:plain C, python, or ruby</title>
	<author>mikael</author>
	<datestamp>1261923960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd agree with that - C was an improvement over assembly language in that your code would be cross-platform, assuming you didn't use any platform-dependent API's, and was a vast improvement over BASIC in that it supported recursion. Pascal had that benefit as well, but you ended up having to figure out how to unroll localized functions if you ever wanted to port algorithms to C or C++.</p><p>To make any code reusable in C, you are going to have to learn abstract data types (the predecessor of object-orientated programming), but when you want to port C ADT's to C++, you would end up spending a lot of time shuffling around object pointers.</p><p>Python and Perl seem to be the most popular object-oriented scripting languages used in industry, with the options of writing C++ and C++ extensions later on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd agree with that - C was an improvement over assembly language in that your code would be cross-platform , assuming you did n't use any platform-dependent API 's , and was a vast improvement over BASIC in that it supported recursion .
Pascal had that benefit as well , but you ended up having to figure out how to unroll localized functions if you ever wanted to port algorithms to C or C + + .To make any code reusable in C , you are going to have to learn abstract data types ( the predecessor of object-orientated programming ) , but when you want to port C ADT 's to C + + , you would end up spending a lot of time shuffling around object pointers.Python and Perl seem to be the most popular object-oriented scripting languages used in industry , with the options of writing C + + and C + + extensions later on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd agree with that - C was an improvement over assembly language in that your code would be cross-platform, assuming you didn't use any platform-dependent API's, and was a vast improvement over BASIC in that it supported recursion.
Pascal had that benefit as well, but you ended up having to figure out how to unroll localized functions if you ever wanted to port algorithms to C or C++.To make any code reusable in C, you are going to have to learn abstract data types (the predecessor of object-orientated programming), but when you want to port C ADT's to C++, you would end up spending a lot of time shuffling around object pointers.Python and Perl seem to be the most popular object-oriented scripting languages used in industry, with the options of writing C++ and C++ extensions later on.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565096</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566362</id>
	<title>Three Factors on the Path to Coding...</title>
	<author>MaxNomad68</author>
	<datestamp>1261915440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In a word, the big determining factors for your brother's path are "Curiosity", "Desire" and "Time". If he's got all three, he can start out with pretty much any language as long as he's got a tutorial or book that's simple enough for him to read, a simple development environment or testbed. Having some sort of project or goal in mind helps out, too. I was about 10 or 11 when I started out with Apple BASIC then I took on 6502 Assembly language (a must for any aspiring protection-cracking software pirate back then) and eventually took QBasic and Pascal once it was available in school. Most of my friends that had an interest in programming took a similar path except they started out with C64 BASIC or whatever came with their computer. As far as what languages to start with, I've seen some fun introductions to Python. With all sincerity, if your brother doesn't have at least two of those three factors working for him -- particularly the desire to learn -- then you'll probably be wasting your time. If your brother doesn't have the desire, you won't be able to teach him how to program a microwave oven.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In a word , the big determining factors for your brother 's path are " Curiosity " , " Desire " and " Time " .
If he 's got all three , he can start out with pretty much any language as long as he 's got a tutorial or book that 's simple enough for him to read , a simple development environment or testbed .
Having some sort of project or goal in mind helps out , too .
I was about 10 or 11 when I started out with Apple BASIC then I took on 6502 Assembly language ( a must for any aspiring protection-cracking software pirate back then ) and eventually took QBasic and Pascal once it was available in school .
Most of my friends that had an interest in programming took a similar path except they started out with C64 BASIC or whatever came with their computer .
As far as what languages to start with , I 've seen some fun introductions to Python .
With all sincerity , if your brother does n't have at least two of those three factors working for him -- particularly the desire to learn -- then you 'll probably be wasting your time .
If your brother does n't have the desire , you wo n't be able to teach him how to program a microwave oven .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In a word, the big determining factors for your brother's path are "Curiosity", "Desire" and "Time".
If he's got all three, he can start out with pretty much any language as long as he's got a tutorial or book that's simple enough for him to read, a simple development environment or testbed.
Having some sort of project or goal in mind helps out, too.
I was about 10 or 11 when I started out with Apple BASIC then I took on 6502 Assembly language (a must for any aspiring protection-cracking software pirate back then) and eventually took QBasic and Pascal once it was available in school.
Most of my friends that had an interest in programming took a similar path except they started out with C64 BASIC or whatever came with their computer.
As far as what languages to start with, I've seen some fun introductions to Python.
With all sincerity, if your brother doesn't have at least two of those three factors working for him -- particularly the desire to learn -- then you'll probably be wasting your time.
If your brother doesn't have the desire, you won't be able to teach him how to program a microwave oven.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569000</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>plasticpixel</author>
	<datestamp>1262033160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Teach BASIC to a child, go to jail.  It's the law.</p><p>I learned on BASIC in the 70's but looking at what's available now, teach something with some OO in it.  Java, PHP would qualify in my book and comes with some great documentation/forums and other help resources.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Teach BASIC to a child , go to jail .
It 's the law.I learned on BASIC in the 70 's but looking at what 's available now , teach something with some OO in it .
Java , PHP would qualify in my book and comes with some great documentation/forums and other help resources .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Teach BASIC to a child, go to jail.
It's the law.I learned on BASIC in the 70's but looking at what's available now, teach something with some OO in it.
Java, PHP would qualify in my book and comes with some great documentation/forums and other help resources.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564972</id>
	<title>FreeBASIC</title>
	<author>duke4e</author>
	<datestamp>1261904580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I whould go with FreeBASIC (+FB IDE)

It's open source, it's fast, it's pretty close to QBasic, but has pointers, OOP and all other modern language stuff. Also, tons of libraries are supported (OpenGL, etc...)</htmltext>
<tokenext>I whould go with FreeBASIC ( + FB IDE ) It 's open source , it 's fast , it 's pretty close to QBasic , but has pointers , OOP and all other modern language stuff .
Also , tons of libraries are supported ( OpenGL , etc... )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I whould go with FreeBASIC (+FB IDE)

It's open source, it's fast, it's pretty close to QBasic, but has pointers, OOP and all other modern language stuff.
Also, tons of libraries are supported (OpenGL, etc...)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569110</id>
	<title>Forbid him from programming!</title>
	<author>fredrickleo</author>
	<datestamp>1261991640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you want your brother to learn programming, tell your parents to forbid him from doing so. That ought to do the trick ^^</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you want your brother to learn programming , tell your parents to forbid him from doing so .
That ought to do the trick ^ ^</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you want your brother to learn programming, tell your parents to forbid him from doing so.
That ought to do the trick ^^</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571186</id>
	<title>Ruby</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262016360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think you should see if any ideas peak his curiousity and then think of the easiest way to write that code...</p><p>The earliest programs I wrote were just simple things on my graphing calculator b/c I had it with me all the time, could give them to friends, etc.</p><p>I also think ruby isn't a bad first step since you can do O-O or scripting, and it is not very cryptic!  They also have a nice little web based gui to introduce you to ruby.</p><p>Eventually you could either switch to C or embed some C code in the ruby, to show how to get to a lower level of abstraction</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think you should see if any ideas peak his curiousity and then think of the easiest way to write that code...The earliest programs I wrote were just simple things on my graphing calculator b/c I had it with me all the time , could give them to friends , etc.I also think ruby is n't a bad first step since you can do O-O or scripting , and it is not very cryptic !
They also have a nice little web based gui to introduce you to ruby.Eventually you could either switch to C or embed some C code in the ruby , to show how to get to a lower level of abstraction</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think you should see if any ideas peak his curiousity and then think of the easiest way to write that code...The earliest programs I wrote were just simple things on my graphing calculator b/c I had it with me all the time, could give them to friends, etc.I also think ruby isn't a bad first step since you can do O-O or scripting, and it is not very cryptic!
They also have a nice little web based gui to introduce you to ruby.Eventually you could either switch to C or embed some C code in the ruby, to show how to get to a lower level of abstraction</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565400</id>
	<title>Re:javascript</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261907280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Completely agree. There are tons of libraries that do all sorts of cool things, it's free, you get rapid feedback in a browser without introducing the complexity of the whole compile/run/debug cycle etc. Despite the language snobs, it is a pretty useful language, syntactically very similar to C and has some fairly nifty OOP capabilities. It contains all the basic data types, loop types, if/then/else and switch statements, Even the comment forms<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/* xxx */ and<nobr> <wbr></nobr>// are identical to C. Due to the very similar syntax, transitioning to C based languages will be much smoother as he won't really have to learn what all the language constructs do and can focus more on the hard stuff like pointers.</p><p>It also has the huge advantage that it's web based which is probably something your brother is intimately familiar with and less likely to be intimidated by. It's also very forgiving because it runs in a sandbox and he won't spend hours rebooting his machine and tearing his hair out over why some line of code crashes his computer.</p><p>Javascript isn't perfect, but it's accessible, provides immediate feedback, and is a good primer for more serious languages.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Completely agree .
There are tons of libraries that do all sorts of cool things , it 's free , you get rapid feedback in a browser without introducing the complexity of the whole compile/run/debug cycle etc .
Despite the language snobs , it is a pretty useful language , syntactically very similar to C and has some fairly nifty OOP capabilities .
It contains all the basic data types , loop types , if/then/else and switch statements , Even the comment forms / * xxx * / and // are identical to C. Due to the very similar syntax , transitioning to C based languages will be much smoother as he wo n't really have to learn what all the language constructs do and can focus more on the hard stuff like pointers.It also has the huge advantage that it 's web based which is probably something your brother is intimately familiar with and less likely to be intimidated by .
It 's also very forgiving because it runs in a sandbox and he wo n't spend hours rebooting his machine and tearing his hair out over why some line of code crashes his computer.Javascript is n't perfect , but it 's accessible , provides immediate feedback , and is a good primer for more serious languages .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Completely agree.
There are tons of libraries that do all sorts of cool things, it's free, you get rapid feedback in a browser without introducing the complexity of the whole compile/run/debug cycle etc.
Despite the language snobs, it is a pretty useful language, syntactically very similar to C and has some fairly nifty OOP capabilities.
It contains all the basic data types, loop types, if/then/else and switch statements, Even the comment forms /* xxx */ and // are identical to C. Due to the very similar syntax, transitioning to C based languages will be much smoother as he won't really have to learn what all the language constructs do and can focus more on the hard stuff like pointers.It also has the huge advantage that it's web based which is probably something your brother is intimately familiar with and less likely to be intimidated by.
It's also very forgiving because it runs in a sandbox and he won't spend hours rebooting his machine and tearing his hair out over why some line of code crashes his computer.Javascript isn't perfect, but it's accessible, provides immediate feedback, and is a good primer for more serious languages.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564862</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566124</id>
	<title>Re:plain C, python, or ruby</title>
	<author>2stein</author>
	<datestamp>1261913280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>
There's nothing particularly wrong with plain C as a first language. (I'd avoid all the intricacies of C++ syntax for a first-timer. <strong>The OO stuff is, in  my opinion, totally unnecessary for a first-time programmer to learn.</strong>)
</p></div><p>I'm tempted to disagree. It might come down to a "imperative programming vs. OOP" thing, but since most people will get into some contact with OOP anyway, why not start with it in the first place? A few people have already suggested Smalltalk and I'd second that. It has extremely simple, compact syntax. It is 100\% object oriented and consistent. And once you've got the "Everything is an object. Everything happens by sending messages (to objects)." idea, you've got it. Since this is a very simple idea, it should be quite easy to understand. And if you've understood that, you can just go on and write programs.</p><p>I've started out with imperative programming (Pascal) and it took me a while to get behind the OOP idea, but after I've had a look at Smalltalk, I just had that enlightening moment, when I learned object-oriented <em>thinking.</em> </p><p>I guess that this object-orientation is much closer to how we naturally think. It's about "making things happen" and about "interaction of things with each other", not about picking everything apart into a big list of things to do, then making smaller lists of to-do-items we call functions and so on. And even with 100\% object-oriented thinking, you still have the concept of doing things one after the other. But only in those places, where it is in the nature of the problem.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's nothing particularly wrong with plain C as a first language .
( I 'd avoid all the intricacies of C + + syntax for a first-timer .
The OO stuff is , in my opinion , totally unnecessary for a first-time programmer to learn .
) I 'm tempted to disagree .
It might come down to a " imperative programming vs. OOP " thing , but since most people will get into some contact with OOP anyway , why not start with it in the first place ?
A few people have already suggested Smalltalk and I 'd second that .
It has extremely simple , compact syntax .
It is 100 \ % object oriented and consistent .
And once you 've got the " Everything is an object .
Everything happens by sending messages ( to objects ) .
" idea , you 've got it .
Since this is a very simple idea , it should be quite easy to understand .
And if you 've understood that , you can just go on and write programs.I 've started out with imperative programming ( Pascal ) and it took me a while to get behind the OOP idea , but after I 've had a look at Smalltalk , I just had that enlightening moment , when I learned object-oriented thinking .
I guess that this object-orientation is much closer to how we naturally think .
It 's about " making things happen " and about " interaction of things with each other " , not about picking everything apart into a big list of things to do , then making smaller lists of to-do-items we call functions and so on .
And even with 100 \ % object-oriented thinking , you still have the concept of doing things one after the other .
But only in those places , where it is in the nature of the problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
There's nothing particularly wrong with plain C as a first language.
(I'd avoid all the intricacies of C++ syntax for a first-timer.
The OO stuff is, in  my opinion, totally unnecessary for a first-time programmer to learn.
)
I'm tempted to disagree.
It might come down to a "imperative programming vs. OOP" thing, but since most people will get into some contact with OOP anyway, why not start with it in the first place?
A few people have already suggested Smalltalk and I'd second that.
It has extremely simple, compact syntax.
It is 100\% object oriented and consistent.
And once you've got the "Everything is an object.
Everything happens by sending messages (to objects).
" idea, you've got it.
Since this is a very simple idea, it should be quite easy to understand.
And if you've understood that, you can just go on and write programs.I've started out with imperative programming (Pascal) and it took me a while to get behind the OOP idea, but after I've had a look at Smalltalk, I just had that enlightening moment, when I learned object-oriented thinking.
I guess that this object-orientation is much closer to how we naturally think.
It's about "making things happen" and about "interaction of things with each other", not about picking everything apart into a big list of things to do, then making smaller lists of to-do-items we call functions and so on.
And even with 100\% object-oriented thinking, you still have the concept of doing things one after the other.
But only in those places, where it is in the nature of the problem.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564904</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566320</id>
	<title>Re:HTML and Javascript</title>
	<author>Eravnrekaree</author>
	<datestamp>1261915080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>PS you can get started really simple with something like  Hello world</p><p>Then maybe introduce the  construct for some simple layouts.</p><p>use  for playing around with fonts. There is much more to do with CSS.</p><p>for javascript, you can show document.write for doing some simple output to the browser. Start showing how to do some simple loops and so on. you can use also javascript and the DOM throigh onclick and so on to get data from text fields to process user input and so on in javascript and placing output from the javascript program into a seperate node. To do i/o it may be simpler to demonstrate some perl programs using read and print however. If you would like i could write some simple programs to demonstrate how to do some simple DOM i/o and send them to you. it can really help with gratification to write some programs that can respond to input to make an interactive program. it is often a good idea to write some simple programs for him that are easy to understand, demonstrate them and show him how it works and so on. Its often best to learn by example.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>PS you can get started really simple with something like Hello worldThen maybe introduce the construct for some simple layouts.use for playing around with fonts .
There is much more to do with CSS.for javascript , you can show document.write for doing some simple output to the browser .
Start showing how to do some simple loops and so on .
you can use also javascript and the DOM throigh onclick and so on to get data from text fields to process user input and so on in javascript and placing output from the javascript program into a seperate node .
To do i/o it may be simpler to demonstrate some perl programs using read and print however .
If you would like i could write some simple programs to demonstrate how to do some simple DOM i/o and send them to you .
it can really help with gratification to write some programs that can respond to input to make an interactive program .
it is often a good idea to write some simple programs for him that are easy to understand , demonstrate them and show him how it works and so on .
Its often best to learn by example .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PS you can get started really simple with something like  Hello worldThen maybe introduce the  construct for some simple layouts.use  for playing around with fonts.
There is much more to do with CSS.for javascript, you can show document.write for doing some simple output to the browser.
Start showing how to do some simple loops and so on.
you can use also javascript and the DOM throigh onclick and so on to get data from text fields to process user input and so on in javascript and placing output from the javascript program into a seperate node.
To do i/o it may be simpler to demonstrate some perl programs using read and print however.
If you would like i could write some simple programs to demonstrate how to do some simple DOM i/o and send them to you.
it can really help with gratification to write some programs that can respond to input to make an interactive program.
it is often a good idea to write some simple programs for him that are easy to understand, demonstrate them and show him how it works and so on.
Its often best to learn by example.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566004</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567030</id>
	<title>If price is not a concern...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261921080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You might look into the Parallax robot kits you can build and program in PBASIC.  The books are really easy to read, the program itself is very simple but you won't learn any OOP or other modern programming style.  The kits are a bit pricey for my taste but they are used in many school districts.  Check out the BOE-BOT kit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You might look into the Parallax robot kits you can build and program in PBASIC .
The books are really easy to read , the program itself is very simple but you wo n't learn any OOP or other modern programming style .
The kits are a bit pricey for my taste but they are used in many school districts .
Check out the BOE-BOT kit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You might look into the Parallax robot kits you can build and program in PBASIC.
The books are really easy to read, the program itself is very simple but you won't learn any OOP or other modern programming style.
The kits are a bit pricey for my taste but they are used in many school districts.
Check out the BOE-BOT kit.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30592690</id>
	<title>Teach him/her how to meet girls/boys instead!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259852100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not a troll, I'm completely serious.</p><p>Nobody told me how to meet girls, how to date them, or anything else.  Like most Slashdotters, remaining a virgin until my 20s is a fact that has scarred me for life.</p><p>I know people - even people who are very much of the "Slashdot type" - who were having sex at age 14.  I didn't get laid until 11 years later.  And it now pisses me off that I was so led and allowed to follow the path of geekiness at the expense of love and sex.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not a troll , I 'm completely serious.Nobody told me how to meet girls , how to date them , or anything else .
Like most Slashdotters , remaining a virgin until my 20s is a fact that has scarred me for life.I know people - even people who are very much of the " Slashdot type " - who were having sex at age 14 .
I did n't get laid until 11 years later .
And it now pisses me off that I was so led and allowed to follow the path of geekiness at the expense of love and sex .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not a troll, I'm completely serious.Nobody told me how to meet girls, how to date them, or anything else.
Like most Slashdotters, remaining a virgin until my 20s is a fact that has scarred me for life.I know people - even people who are very much of the "Slashdot type" - who were having sex at age 14.
I didn't get laid until 11 years later.
And it now pisses me off that I was so led and allowed to follow the path of geekiness at the expense of love and sex.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30578918</id>
	<title>Hackety Hack</title>
	<author>BlueCodeWarrior</author>
	<datestamp>1262019060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm maintaining \_why's Hackety Hack, which was built specifically for this purpose. It's still in "not quite 100\% ready yet" mode, but you can at least keep your eyes peeled. I'm also quite open to thoughts and suggestions.

<a href="http://hackety-hack.heroku.com/" title="heroku.com" rel="nofollow">http://hackety-hack.heroku.com/</a> [heroku.com]
<a href="http://github.com/steveklabnik/hacketyhack" title="github.com" rel="nofollow">http://github.com/steveklabnik/hacketyhack</a> [github.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm maintaining \ _why 's Hackety Hack , which was built specifically for this purpose .
It 's still in " not quite 100 \ % ready yet " mode , but you can at least keep your eyes peeled .
I 'm also quite open to thoughts and suggestions .
http : //hackety-hack.heroku.com/ [ heroku.com ] http : //github.com/steveklabnik/hacketyhack [ github.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm maintaining \_why's Hackety Hack, which was built specifically for this purpose.
It's still in "not quite 100\% ready yet" mode, but you can at least keep your eyes peeled.
I'm also quite open to thoughts and suggestions.
http://hackety-hack.heroku.com/ [heroku.com]
http://github.com/steveklabnik/hacketyhack [github.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566042</id>
	<title>Electronics Kit and a Microcontroller</title>
	<author>Fls'Zen</author>
	<datestamp>1261912440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Start out with an electronics kit and get them a small 8-bit microcontroller. Use assembly. Don't go for x86 either-I pity Intel for the monster they have created. Freescale's S08 core is a nice starter-you can get a programmer for ~ $30.

The reason this is better: They get to build a circuit that has a function. No matter how simple the circuit is, it is built to fulfill a specific function that they can understand. The microcontroller code can is programmed to make the circuit behave in different ways.

The reason this is more fun that high-level programming for a 12-year old: At this stage in life, they want to become in control. Hoping that your event handler ends up being called is not being in control. Wondering what on earth the computer is actually doing when you give it a command is not being in control either.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Start out with an electronics kit and get them a small 8-bit microcontroller .
Use assembly .
Do n't go for x86 either-I pity Intel for the monster they have created .
Freescale 's S08 core is a nice starter-you can get a programmer for ~ $ 30 .
The reason this is better : They get to build a circuit that has a function .
No matter how simple the circuit is , it is built to fulfill a specific function that they can understand .
The microcontroller code can is programmed to make the circuit behave in different ways .
The reason this is more fun that high-level programming for a 12-year old : At this stage in life , they want to become in control .
Hoping that your event handler ends up being called is not being in control .
Wondering what on earth the computer is actually doing when you give it a command is not being in control either .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Start out with an electronics kit and get them a small 8-bit microcontroller.
Use assembly.
Don't go for x86 either-I pity Intel for the monster they have created.
Freescale's S08 core is a nice starter-you can get a programmer for ~ $30.
The reason this is better: They get to build a circuit that has a function.
No matter how simple the circuit is, it is built to fulfill a specific function that they can understand.
The microcontroller code can is programmed to make the circuit behave in different ways.
The reason this is more fun that high-level programming for a 12-year old: At this stage in life, they want to become in control.
Hoping that your event handler ends up being called is not being in control.
Wondering what on earth the computer is actually doing when you give it a command is not being in control either.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567262</id>
	<title>Revolution 4.0</title>
	<author>8086</author>
	<datestamp>1261923240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I haven't used it myself, but you might want to take a look at the Revolution programming language which has english-like syntax and seems to be more capable than Logo/BASIC as a beginner's language: <a href="http://developers.slashdot.org/story/09/11/26/2016255/Dumbing-Down-Programming" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">http://developers.slashdot.org/story/09/11/26/2016255/Dumbing-Down-Programming</a> [slashdot.org] . I hear it is being used in an academic setting to teach programming to Lit/Art majors.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have n't used it myself , but you might want to take a look at the Revolution programming language which has english-like syntax and seems to be more capable than Logo/BASIC as a beginner 's language : http : //developers.slashdot.org/story/09/11/26/2016255/Dumbing-Down-Programming [ slashdot.org ] .
I hear it is being used in an academic setting to teach programming to Lit/Art majors .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I haven't used it myself, but you might want to take a look at the Revolution programming language which has english-like syntax and seems to be more capable than Logo/BASIC as a beginner's language: http://developers.slashdot.org/story/09/11/26/2016255/Dumbing-Down-Programming [slashdot.org] .
I hear it is being used in an academic setting to teach programming to Lit/Art majors.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568138</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Monsuco</author>
	<datestamp>1261932720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Exactly! He may, for example, be more interested in girls. And if he knows how to talk to a girl, he probably won't amount to much of a programmer anyway.</p></div><p>A thinkgeek shirt had the reason geeks don't understand women
</p><p>
$&gt; man woman
<br>
$&gt; Segmentation fault (core dumped)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly !
He may , for example , be more interested in girls .
And if he knows how to talk to a girl , he probably wo n't amount to much of a programmer anyway.A thinkgeek shirt had the reason geeks do n't understand women $ &gt; man woman $ &gt; Segmentation fault ( core dumped )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly!
He may, for example, be more interested in girls.
And if he knows how to talk to a girl, he probably won't amount to much of a programmer anyway.A thinkgeek shirt had the reason geeks don't understand women

$&gt; man woman

$&gt; Segmentation fault (core dumped)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30573972</id>
	<title>Ceebots!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1262029380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am learning programming myself right now, and we use Ceebots.  I find it to be fun, intuitive and (hopefully) a good teacher for when I get into real C.</p><p>http://www.ceebot.com/ceebot/index-e.php</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am learning programming myself right now , and we use Ceebots .
I find it to be fun , intuitive and ( hopefully ) a good teacher for when I get into real C.http : //www.ceebot.com/ceebot/index-e.php</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am learning programming myself right now, and we use Ceebots.
I find it to be fun, intuitive and (hopefully) a good teacher for when I get into real C.http://www.ceebot.com/ceebot/index-e.php</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566076</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>westyvw</author>
	<datestamp>1261912800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you are going to recommend BASIC at least keep it modern: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambas" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambas</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you are going to recommend BASIC at least keep it modern : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambas [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you are going to recommend BASIC at least keep it modern: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambas [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565672</id>
	<title>I'm shocked nobody's mentioned this yet...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261909440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I tried to get into c++ at that age but quickly became discouraged; lots of complicated typing for 'text only' results. I wanted to see some action!</p><p>Then about five years later I heard of a game called 'ColoBot', which is a 3-D adventure game in which programming in a c++ like language is the core of everything you do; you have a small group of robots on an alien world and you code their AI to perform tasks, from resource collection to building to attacking enemy aliens.</p><p>I became instantly obsessed with ColoBot and writing better code for the robots; I played the game late into the night and arrived at work sleepy the next day for weeks.</p><p>After I had become comfortable with ColoBot, it was easy to make the transition to actual c++ and creating my own games; my ColoBot experience had given me the confidence and the high-level understanding of the concepts to make the jump.</p><p>The real key was that ColoBot felt like playing a video game, though 90\% of what I was doing was imagining new types of tasks, coming up with code to perform them, and then debugging and improving the code over and over. ColoBot kept me interested with graphics, effects, missions, etc... until I was ready for the real thing.</p><p>Though I've read<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. for years, I've never posted here (hence anonymous coward), but I remember thinking 'where was this game when I was 12!' about ColoBot, and its effect on my own subsequent computer science experiences was too profound not to share.</p><p>Good luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I tried to get into c + + at that age but quickly became discouraged ; lots of complicated typing for 'text only ' results .
I wanted to see some action ! Then about five years later I heard of a game called 'ColoBot ' , which is a 3-D adventure game in which programming in a c + + like language is the core of everything you do ; you have a small group of robots on an alien world and you code their AI to perform tasks , from resource collection to building to attacking enemy aliens.I became instantly obsessed with ColoBot and writing better code for the robots ; I played the game late into the night and arrived at work sleepy the next day for weeks.After I had become comfortable with ColoBot , it was easy to make the transition to actual c + + and creating my own games ; my ColoBot experience had given me the confidence and the high-level understanding of the concepts to make the jump.The real key was that ColoBot felt like playing a video game , though 90 \ % of what I was doing was imagining new types of tasks , coming up with code to perform them , and then debugging and improving the code over and over .
ColoBot kept me interested with graphics , effects , missions , etc... until I was ready for the real thing.Though I 've read / .
for years , I 've never posted here ( hence anonymous coward ) , but I remember thinking 'where was this game when I was 12 !
' about ColoBot , and its effect on my own subsequent computer science experiences was too profound not to share.Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I tried to get into c++ at that age but quickly became discouraged; lots of complicated typing for 'text only' results.
I wanted to see some action!Then about five years later I heard of a game called 'ColoBot', which is a 3-D adventure game in which programming in a c++ like language is the core of everything you do; you have a small group of robots on an alien world and you code their AI to perform tasks, from resource collection to building to attacking enemy aliens.I became instantly obsessed with ColoBot and writing better code for the robots; I played the game late into the night and arrived at work sleepy the next day for weeks.After I had become comfortable with ColoBot, it was easy to make the transition to actual c++ and creating my own games; my ColoBot experience had given me the confidence and the high-level understanding of the concepts to make the jump.The real key was that ColoBot felt like playing a video game, though 90\% of what I was doing was imagining new types of tasks, coming up with code to perform them, and then debugging and improving the code over and over.
ColoBot kept me interested with graphics, effects, missions, etc... until I was ready for the real thing.Though I've read /.
for years, I've never posted here (hence anonymous coward), but I remember thinking 'where was this game when I was 12!
' about ColoBot, and its effect on my own subsequent computer science experiences was too profound not to share.Good luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564880</id>
	<title>Re:Python</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261947120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You may actually want to be a little wary of languages like Python if you plan on teaching a kid C. It's a trap that I, as a young programmer, fell into with classic Visual Basic: the language is just enough that you get hooked on it and don't want to move on to something else. That's an important reason, at least in my book, why starter languages <i>should</i> be limited in their capabilities&mdash;that, and it makes a great learning experience for the kid to come back and complete his or her favourite language later!</p><p>tl;dr: Python is a great language to learn by, but so featureful that your kid may never give it up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You may actually want to be a little wary of languages like Python if you plan on teaching a kid C. It 's a trap that I , as a young programmer , fell into with classic Visual Basic : the language is just enough that you get hooked on it and do n't want to move on to something else .
That 's an important reason , at least in my book , why starter languages should be limited in their capabilities    that , and it makes a great learning experience for the kid to come back and complete his or her favourite language later ! tl ; dr : Python is a great language to learn by , but so featureful that your kid may never give it up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You may actually want to be a little wary of languages like Python if you plan on teaching a kid C. It's a trap that I, as a young programmer, fell into with classic Visual Basic: the language is just enough that you get hooked on it and don't want to move on to something else.
That's an important reason, at least in my book, why starter languages should be limited in their capabilities—that, and it makes a great learning experience for the kid to come back and complete his or her favourite language later!tl;dr: Python is a great language to learn by, but so featureful that your kid may never give it up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566662</id>
	<title>Game Maker</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261918080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I started using Game Maker when I was 12, but now it just sucks.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I started using Game Maker when I was 12 , but now it just sucks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started using Game Maker when I was 12, but now it just sucks.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564948</id>
	<title>C#/XNA?</title>
	<author>EllF</author>
	<datestamp>1261904460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>At 12, I think you want to impart a good foundation, not expertise in a specific language. I learned BASIC on a C64 back when I was 5-8, and followed it by learning C and C++ in my early teens. I think BASIC remains a reasonably decent starting point, in that you'll be teaching the rudiments of loops and program flow without the complexities of pointers, but depending upon the learner you may want to dive into C immediately after walking through the basics of BASIC.

C# would arguably be the logical replacement for C++ in a new programmer, these days. If he's like most kids, you could even teach both C# and XNA, and work with him on learning to write code via a small video game project; if he has a Windows PC or an XBox, he can even show it off to his friends.</htmltext>
<tokenext>At 12 , I think you want to impart a good foundation , not expertise in a specific language .
I learned BASIC on a C64 back when I was 5-8 , and followed it by learning C and C + + in my early teens .
I think BASIC remains a reasonably decent starting point , in that you 'll be teaching the rudiments of loops and program flow without the complexities of pointers , but depending upon the learner you may want to dive into C immediately after walking through the basics of BASIC .
C # would arguably be the logical replacement for C + + in a new programmer , these days .
If he 's like most kids , you could even teach both C # and XNA , and work with him on learning to write code via a small video game project ; if he has a Windows PC or an XBox , he can even show it off to his friends .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At 12, I think you want to impart a good foundation, not expertise in a specific language.
I learned BASIC on a C64 back when I was 5-8, and followed it by learning C and C++ in my early teens.
I think BASIC remains a reasonably decent starting point, in that you'll be teaching the rudiments of loops and program flow without the complexities of pointers, but depending upon the learner you may want to dive into C immediately after walking through the basics of BASIC.
C# would arguably be the logical replacement for C++ in a new programmer, these days.
If he's like most kids, you could even teach both C# and XNA, and work with him on learning to write code via a small video game project; if he has a Windows PC or an XBox, he can even show it off to his friends.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565606</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261908900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You didn't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all. Because if he isn't, he will never be.</p></div><p>Exactly! He may, for example, be more interested in girls. And if he knows how to talk to a girl, he probably won't amount to much of a programmer anyway.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You did n't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all .
Because if he is n't , he will never be.Exactly !
He may , for example , be more interested in girls .
And if he knows how to talk to a girl , he probably wo n't amount to much of a programmer anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You didn't tell if he actually is interested in programming at all.
Because if he isn't, he will never be.Exactly!
He may, for example, be more interested in girls.
And if he knows how to talk to a girl, he probably won't amount to much of a programmer anyway.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565528</id>
	<title>Crobots</title>
	<author>shawn.fox</author>
	<datestamp>1261908300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I recommend <a href="http://crobots.deepthought.it/home.php" title="deepthought.it" rel="nofollow">Crobots</a> [deepthought.it].  It is a fairly simple game where you create a program that operates a robot on a battlefield vs another robot that someone else has written.  Limited C syntax but it has the basic programming structures.  Way back in the late 80s I spent all summer building robots with Crobots.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I recommend Crobots [ deepthought.it ] .
It is a fairly simple game where you create a program that operates a robot on a battlefield vs another robot that someone else has written .
Limited C syntax but it has the basic programming structures .
Way back in the late 80s I spent all summer building robots with Crobots .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I recommend Crobots [deepthought.it].
It is a fairly simple game where you create a program that operates a robot on a battlefield vs another robot that someone else has written.
Limited C syntax but it has the basic programming structures.
Way back in the late 80s I spent all summer building robots with Crobots.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568092</id>
	<title>make it easier with a good IDE</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261932120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Whatever you do, please don't start the poor kid using a text editor. That is just a plain stupid way to turn someone off from programming. Real story - I took COBOL programming language course at our community college in my senior year of high school. I loved the portion of making logical flow. But the environment so turned me off I stayed away from the next 21 years.</p><p>The stupid instructor could tell that I had potential. But in his stupid way of showing superiority he insisted that I spend the semester writing code with an editor that made edlin look user friendly.</p><p>The point is to use an environment that relieves as much of the syntax burden as possible. If the IDE lets him know that something is right (or wrong) that is a good thing. And if it supports syntax completion that is a good thing. If this sounds like big bucks, then download Visual Studio Express with either C# or visual basic. Let the new person focus on making something that does stuff before introducing the brass knuckles, I can suffer through this crap that many programmers love.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Whatever you do , please do n't start the poor kid using a text editor .
That is just a plain stupid way to turn someone off from programming .
Real story - I took COBOL programming language course at our community college in my senior year of high school .
I loved the portion of making logical flow .
But the environment so turned me off I stayed away from the next 21 years.The stupid instructor could tell that I had potential .
But in his stupid way of showing superiority he insisted that I spend the semester writing code with an editor that made edlin look user friendly.The point is to use an environment that relieves as much of the syntax burden as possible .
If the IDE lets him know that something is right ( or wrong ) that is a good thing .
And if it supports syntax completion that is a good thing .
If this sounds like big bucks , then download Visual Studio Express with either C # or visual basic .
Let the new person focus on making something that does stuff before introducing the brass knuckles , I can suffer through this crap that many programmers love .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Whatever you do, please don't start the poor kid using a text editor.
That is just a plain stupid way to turn someone off from programming.
Real story - I took COBOL programming language course at our community college in my senior year of high school.
I loved the portion of making logical flow.
But the environment so turned me off I stayed away from the next 21 years.The stupid instructor could tell that I had potential.
But in his stupid way of showing superiority he insisted that I spend the semester writing code with an editor that made edlin look user friendly.The point is to use an environment that relieves as much of the syntax burden as possible.
If the IDE lets him know that something is right (or wrong) that is a good thing.
And if it supports syntax completion that is a good thing.
If this sounds like big bucks, then download Visual Studio Express with either C# or visual basic.
Let the new person focus on making something that does stuff before introducing the brass knuckles, I can suffer through this crap that many programmers love.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569456</id>
	<title>Re:ALICE from CMU</title>
	<author>perew</author>
	<datestamp>1261998960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The goal of programming is to do entertaining and/or useful things.  Alice is a wonderful teaching tool because it allows the programmer to do entertaining and/or useful things without fretting too much about syntax and semantics.  In the process, the student is exposed to objects, methods, variables, control structures, functions, events, etc..


For many school-aged kids, those entertaining and/or useful things may be creating a moderately complex game or just telling a story (essentially a small animated movie).  Keeping kids engaged and quickly making visible progress toward the goal, while exposing them to strong programming principles, certainly makes Alice a good teaching platform.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The goal of programming is to do entertaining and/or useful things .
Alice is a wonderful teaching tool because it allows the programmer to do entertaining and/or useful things without fretting too much about syntax and semantics .
In the process , the student is exposed to objects , methods , variables , control structures , functions , events , etc. . For many school-aged kids , those entertaining and/or useful things may be creating a moderately complex game or just telling a story ( essentially a small animated movie ) .
Keeping kids engaged and quickly making visible progress toward the goal , while exposing them to strong programming principles , certainly makes Alice a good teaching platform .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The goal of programming is to do entertaining and/or useful things.
Alice is a wonderful teaching tool because it allows the programmer to do entertaining and/or useful things without fretting too much about syntax and semantics.
In the process, the student is exposed to objects, methods, variables, control structures, functions, events, etc..


For many school-aged kids, those entertaining and/or useful things may be creating a moderately complex game or just telling a story (essentially a small animated movie).
Keeping kids engaged and quickly making visible progress toward the goal, while exposing them to strong programming principles, certainly makes Alice a good teaching platform.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565988</id>
	<title>Phrogram</title>
	<author>dd1968</author>
	<datestamp>1261912080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hands down, Phrogram is the best language for teaching young people to program. It's a language purpose-built for teaching kids (it used to be called KPL or "Kids Programming Language") and it scales with the child. A young person can start by coding simple graphical applications and "graduate" to database access and even sockets programming.

<a href="http://phrogram.com/" title="phrogram.com" rel="nofollow">http://phrogram.com/</a> [phrogram.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hands down , Phrogram is the best language for teaching young people to program .
It 's a language purpose-built for teaching kids ( it used to be called KPL or " Kids Programming Language " ) and it scales with the child .
A young person can start by coding simple graphical applications and " graduate " to database access and even sockets programming .
http : //phrogram.com/ [ phrogram.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hands down, Phrogram is the best language for teaching young people to program.
It's a language purpose-built for teaching kids (it used to be called KPL or "Kids Programming Language") and it scales with the child.
A young person can start by coding simple graphical applications and "graduate" to database access and even sockets programming.
http://phrogram.com/ [phrogram.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566444</id>
	<title>ALICE</title>
	<author>blue\_moon\_ro</author>
	<datestamp>1261916160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How about Alice (http://www.alice.org)? Form their site: "It is an 3D programming environment that makes it easy to create an animation for telling a story, playing an interactive game, or a video to share on the web. Alice is a teaching tool for introductory computing. It uses 3D graphics and a drag-and-drop interface to facilitate a more engaging, less frustrating first programming experience."  From what I've seen, it is specifically targeted at kids.</htmltext>
<tokenext>How about Alice ( http : //www.alice.org ) ?
Form their site : " It is an 3D programming environment that makes it easy to create an animation for telling a story , playing an interactive game , or a video to share on the web .
Alice is a teaching tool for introductory computing .
It uses 3D graphics and a drag-and-drop interface to facilitate a more engaging , less frustrating first programming experience .
" From what I 've seen , it is specifically targeted at kids .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about Alice (http://www.alice.org)?
Form their site: "It is an 3D programming environment that makes it easy to create an animation for telling a story, playing an interactive game, or a video to share on the web.
Alice is a teaching tool for introductory computing.
It uses 3D graphics and a drag-and-drop interface to facilitate a more engaging, less frustrating first programming experience.
"  From what I've seen, it is specifically targeted at kids.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565148</id>
	<title>Programmable Graphing Calculator</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261905600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's simple and portable and provides a graphical/alphanumeric display. It will introduce
him to variables and conditionals and loops and stored procedures. And it could be immediately useful to him in his studies.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's simple and portable and provides a graphical/alphanumeric display .
It will introduce him to variables and conditionals and loops and stored procedures .
And it could be immediately useful to him in his studies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's simple and portable and provides a graphical/alphanumeric display.
It will introduce
him to variables and conditionals and loops and stored procedures.
And it could be immediately useful to him in his studies.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565730</id>
	<title>I think python is the basic equivalent these days</title>
	<author>nedlohs</author>
	<datestamp>1261909860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or just jump into java with something like: <a href="http://www.greenfoot.org/" title="greenfoot.org">http://www.greenfoot.org/</a> [greenfoot.org]</p><p>Though personally, I don't like the whole "objects first" concept.</p><p>Depends on how motivated the person is and whether they need the "I made a game" reward, or whether "I made the computer do what I wanted" is enough.</p><p>Without actually thinking it through, the original Freedom Force game (2002 so will run on basically any modern machine) used python as the scripting language. You could do pretty neat things with small amounts of code and you got a "fun" test environment. But it's been a long time since I looked at that, there might be some drawback I don't recall making it a PITA.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or just jump into java with something like : http : //www.greenfoot.org/ [ greenfoot.org ] Though personally , I do n't like the whole " objects first " concept.Depends on how motivated the person is and whether they need the " I made a game " reward , or whether " I made the computer do what I wanted " is enough.Without actually thinking it through , the original Freedom Force game ( 2002 so will run on basically any modern machine ) used python as the scripting language .
You could do pretty neat things with small amounts of code and you got a " fun " test environment .
But it 's been a long time since I looked at that , there might be some drawback I do n't recall making it a PITA .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or just jump into java with something like: http://www.greenfoot.org/ [greenfoot.org]Though personally, I don't like the whole "objects first" concept.Depends on how motivated the person is and whether they need the "I made a game" reward, or whether "I made the computer do what I wanted" is enough.Without actually thinking it through, the original Freedom Force game (2002 so will run on basically any modern machine) used python as the scripting language.
You could do pretty neat things with small amounts of code and you got a "fun" test environment.
But it's been a long time since I looked at that, there might be some drawback I don't recall making it a PITA.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30574518</id>
	<title>Re:ALICE from CMU</title>
	<author>KnownIssues</author>
	<datestamp>1262031960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The goal of programming is to solve problems that are harder to solve than without a program. Every successful experience I've had learning something has been in trying to solve a problem that meant something to me.</p><p>Are you trying to spark an interested in the subject of programming or are you trying to teach the kid a skill? Or is this piano lessons for the next generation?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The goal of programming is to solve problems that are harder to solve than without a program .
Every successful experience I 've had learning something has been in trying to solve a problem that meant something to me.Are you trying to spark an interested in the subject of programming or are you trying to teach the kid a skill ?
Or is this piano lessons for the next generation ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The goal of programming is to solve problems that are harder to solve than without a program.
Every successful experience I've had learning something has been in trying to solve a problem that meant something to me.Are you trying to spark an interested in the subject of programming or are you trying to teach the kid a skill?
Or is this piano lessons for the next generation?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30622386</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1230912840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe, while my child is learning, it will be useful for her to visit slashdot. But then she'll encounter people like you who talk by saying "asshat". In the real world, I would take her to a place where people talk like that. Why do you have to do it here?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe , while my child is learning , it will be useful for her to visit slashdot .
But then she 'll encounter people like you who talk by saying " asshat " .
In the real world , I would take her to a place where people talk like that .
Why do you have to do it here ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe, while my child is learning, it will be useful for her to visit slashdot.
But then she'll encounter people like you who talk by saying "asshat".
In the real world, I would take her to a place where people talk like that.
Why do you have to do it here?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568662</id>
	<title>Or</title>
	<author>amazingxkcd</author>
	<datestamp>1261940940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>You just screw all this software languages and do some hardcore hdls and play with fpgas all day</htmltext>
<tokenext>You just screw all this software languages and do some hardcore hdls and play with fpgas all day</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You just screw all this software languages and do some hardcore hdls and play with fpgas all day</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571720</id>
	<title>Definitely NOT python</title>
	<author>coolgeek</author>
	<datestamp>1262019180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No sense teaching him the weird indentation fetish that comes with it.  Just too fucking bizarre.</p><p>Personally, I went from BASIC to C in high school.  It was about 28 years ago.  And then had to learn Pascal when I took a course in community college.  After I dropped out, I took my first job as a wiz kid, and had to learn PL/I and assembler.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No sense teaching him the weird indentation fetish that comes with it .
Just too fucking bizarre.Personally , I went from BASIC to C in high school .
It was about 28 years ago .
And then had to learn Pascal when I took a course in community college .
After I dropped out , I took my first job as a wiz kid , and had to learn PL/I and assembler .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No sense teaching him the weird indentation fetish that comes with it.
Just too fucking bizarre.Personally, I went from BASIC to C in high school.
It was about 28 years ago.
And then had to learn Pascal when I took a course in community college.
After I dropped out, I took my first job as a wiz kid, and had to learn PL/I and assembler.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565210</id>
	<title>I remember my introduction....</title>
	<author>lintmint</author>
	<datestamp>1261905900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>#include 

int main(char * argv[], int argc)
{
   fprintf(stdout, "Hello World!\n");
   return 0;
}</htmltext>
<tokenext># include int main ( char * argv [ ] , int argc ) { fprintf ( stdout , " Hello World ! \ n " ) ; return 0 ; }</tokentext>
<sentencetext>#include 

int main(char * argv[], int argc)
{
   fprintf(stdout, "Hello World!\n");
   return 0;
}</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570444</id>
	<title>A few ideas</title>
	<author>chrysrobyn</author>
	<datestamp>1262011860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You don't teach a kid programming.  They learn it.</p><p>If the kid is interested in (his|her) own computer, then some Cocoa or Visual Basic will get the GUI baubles up pretty quickly.  Pressing buttons and causing things to happen is possibly what's going to light the fire.</p><p>If the kid is fascinated with the outside world, I agree with <a href="http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1490850&amp;cid=30565422" title="slashdot.org">ebbe11</a> [slashdot.org].  Mindstorms is the way to interact with the outside world.</p><p>If the kid is interested in Facebook and Myspace and other web trappings, Greasemonkey is the way to go.  Try to get a copy of the MWAP (Mafia Wars Autoplayer) as an indication of what you can do if you're interested.  Greasemonkey can help script all manner of things with web pages, and the foundations of variables and function calls are all there, and easily portable to other languages.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do n't teach a kid programming .
They learn it.If the kid is interested in ( his | her ) own computer , then some Cocoa or Visual Basic will get the GUI baubles up pretty quickly .
Pressing buttons and causing things to happen is possibly what 's going to light the fire.If the kid is fascinated with the outside world , I agree with ebbe11 [ slashdot.org ] .
Mindstorms is the way to interact with the outside world.If the kid is interested in Facebook and Myspace and other web trappings , Greasemonkey is the way to go .
Try to get a copy of the MWAP ( Mafia Wars Autoplayer ) as an indication of what you can do if you 're interested .
Greasemonkey can help script all manner of things with web pages , and the foundations of variables and function calls are all there , and easily portable to other languages .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You don't teach a kid programming.
They learn it.If the kid is interested in (his|her) own computer, then some Cocoa or Visual Basic will get the GUI baubles up pretty quickly.
Pressing buttons and causing things to happen is possibly what's going to light the fire.If the kid is fascinated with the outside world, I agree with ebbe11 [slashdot.org].
Mindstorms is the way to interact with the outside world.If the kid is interested in Facebook and Myspace and other web trappings, Greasemonkey is the way to go.
Try to get a copy of the MWAP (Mafia Wars Autoplayer) as an indication of what you can do if you're interested.
Greasemonkey can help script all manner of things with web pages, and the foundations of variables and function calls are all there, and easily portable to other languages.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567716</id>
	<title>LOGO!</title>
	<author>Jeremy Lee</author>
	<datestamp>1261927620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>C#, Pascal, Javascript??? Sure, and while we're at it why not give him an ADA compiler and the DoD style guide.</p><p>Logo was designed and built to teach programming concepts to kids, and excels at it. Has done for 20 years.</p><p>I've got a CNC 3-Axis milling machine at home that I don't use much, but we still gave my 6-year old nephew LEGO for Christmas. Think about it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>C # , Pascal , Javascript ? ? ?
Sure , and while we 're at it why not give him an ADA compiler and the DoD style guide.Logo was designed and built to teach programming concepts to kids , and excels at it .
Has done for 20 years.I 've got a CNC 3-Axis milling machine at home that I do n't use much , but we still gave my 6-year old nephew LEGO for Christmas .
Think about it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>C#, Pascal, Javascript???
Sure, and while we're at it why not give him an ADA compiler and the DoD style guide.Logo was designed and built to teach programming concepts to kids, and excels at it.
Has done for 20 years.I've got a CNC 3-Axis milling machine at home that I don't use much, but we still gave my 6-year old nephew LEGO for Christmas.
Think about it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566716</id>
	<title>The hard part of programming ...</title>
	<author>Frater 219</author>
	<datestamp>1261918620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
People spend a lot of effort blathering about which programming language is best to use for teaching. But the hard part of programming is not the programming language. It's the logical thinking skills; the abstract concepts like <em>function</em> and <em>algorithm</em> and <em>data structure</em> and <em>type</em>; the reasoned approach to breaking a problem down and seeing algorithms and patterns; the ability to learn new tools such as a utility or an API and put them together usefully.
</p><p>
These things transcend language. Yes, you will probably use different algorithms or data structures in Python on a Linux box than in C on a microcontroller, but you will use largely the same sort of thinking skills. You will approach writing code differently in Lisp than in Java, but in both you will be combining known parts in a new structure to accomplish a task.
</p><p>
And it is these abstract skills -- especially the <em>skill of abstracting</em>, of recognizing and using patterns -- which separate those who learn to program well from those who do not. (And this is different again from being a successful professional programmer, which entails a quite different set of skills.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People spend a lot of effort blathering about which programming language is best to use for teaching .
But the hard part of programming is not the programming language .
It 's the logical thinking skills ; the abstract concepts like function and algorithm and data structure and type ; the reasoned approach to breaking a problem down and seeing algorithms and patterns ; the ability to learn new tools such as a utility or an API and put them together usefully .
These things transcend language .
Yes , you will probably use different algorithms or data structures in Python on a Linux box than in C on a microcontroller , but you will use largely the same sort of thinking skills .
You will approach writing code differently in Lisp than in Java , but in both you will be combining known parts in a new structure to accomplish a task .
And it is these abstract skills -- especially the skill of abstracting , of recognizing and using patterns -- which separate those who learn to program well from those who do not .
( And this is different again from being a successful professional programmer , which entails a quite different set of skills .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
People spend a lot of effort blathering about which programming language is best to use for teaching.
But the hard part of programming is not the programming language.
It's the logical thinking skills; the abstract concepts like function and algorithm and data structure and type; the reasoned approach to breaking a problem down and seeing algorithms and patterns; the ability to learn new tools such as a utility or an API and put them together usefully.
These things transcend language.
Yes, you will probably use different algorithms or data structures in Python on a Linux box than in C on a microcontroller, but you will use largely the same sort of thinking skills.
You will approach writing code differently in Lisp than in Java, but in both you will be combining known parts in a new structure to accomplish a task.
And it is these abstract skills -- especially the skill of abstracting, of recognizing and using patterns -- which separate those who learn to program well from those who do not.
(And this is different again from being a successful professional programmer, which entails a quite different set of skills.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567672</id>
	<title>Make it fun, don't even attempt c/asm</title>
	<author>mr sharpoblunto</author>
	<datestamp>1261927260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think a lot of you are seriously missing the point when you're suggesting c/c++/asm, or even c#/VB.NET/Delphi as suitable languages. The idea is not to start them on the shortest path to them to become the perfect programmer with impeccable knowledge of the machine and computer science principles, but rather to spark a passion in them for programming that they will continue of thier own volition. Let them get interested first, then they can learn to program properly later.
<br>
The problem with using low level languages, or widely used commercial languages is that the languages are too complicated, the libraries are too big (Java,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET etc have huge base class libraries full of useful stuff but its way to overwhelming when starting off) or the tools/ides themselves are too complicated (try explaining the ins and outs of eclipse or visual studio to a kid).
<br>
Thinking back to when I learned to program in QBasic I think the ideal language is one that is simple to make stuff happen on screen (Most kids start programming so that they can make games, so you need something which gives them the impression, at least initially that graphics and interactivity is an achievable goal),is fairly limited in its base libraries (this forces you to learn to solve common comp sci problems, or at least think about solutions to them as the libraries won't do it all for you), and has a slow execution environment (this forces you to think of better ways to do things and work within the constraints of the language).
<br>
My suggestion is javascript/HTML, the IDE is the most familiar app to most computer users - the browser, you don't need any dev tools, its totally cross platform, you have access to a powerful and pretty easy to understand display engine with html/css and you can write anything from a picture gallery to a text adventure, to a mario clone depending on your skill level.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think a lot of you are seriously missing the point when you 're suggesting c/c + + /asm , or even c # /VB.NET/Delphi as suitable languages .
The idea is not to start them on the shortest path to them to become the perfect programmer with impeccable knowledge of the machine and computer science principles , but rather to spark a passion in them for programming that they will continue of thier own volition .
Let them get interested first , then they can learn to program properly later .
The problem with using low level languages , or widely used commercial languages is that the languages are too complicated , the libraries are too big ( Java , .NET etc have huge base class libraries full of useful stuff but its way to overwhelming when starting off ) or the tools/ides themselves are too complicated ( try explaining the ins and outs of eclipse or visual studio to a kid ) .
Thinking back to when I learned to program in QBasic I think the ideal language is one that is simple to make stuff happen on screen ( Most kids start programming so that they can make games , so you need something which gives them the impression , at least initially that graphics and interactivity is an achievable goal ) ,is fairly limited in its base libraries ( this forces you to learn to solve common comp sci problems , or at least think about solutions to them as the libraries wo n't do it all for you ) , and has a slow execution environment ( this forces you to think of better ways to do things and work within the constraints of the language ) .
My suggestion is javascript/HTML , the IDE is the most familiar app to most computer users - the browser , you do n't need any dev tools , its totally cross platform , you have access to a powerful and pretty easy to understand display engine with html/css and you can write anything from a picture gallery to a text adventure , to a mario clone depending on your skill level .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think a lot of you are seriously missing the point when you're suggesting c/c++/asm, or even c#/VB.NET/Delphi as suitable languages.
The idea is not to start them on the shortest path to them to become the perfect programmer with impeccable knowledge of the machine and computer science principles, but rather to spark a passion in them for programming that they will continue of thier own volition.
Let them get interested first, then they can learn to program properly later.
The problem with using low level languages, or widely used commercial languages is that the languages are too complicated, the libraries are too big (Java, .NET etc have huge base class libraries full of useful stuff but its way to overwhelming when starting off) or the tools/ides themselves are too complicated (try explaining the ins and outs of eclipse or visual studio to a kid).
Thinking back to when I learned to program in QBasic I think the ideal language is one that is simple to make stuff happen on screen (Most kids start programming so that they can make games, so you need something which gives them the impression, at least initially that graphics and interactivity is an achievable goal),is fairly limited in its base libraries (this forces you to learn to solve common comp sci problems, or at least think about solutions to them as the libraries won't do it all for you), and has a slow execution environment (this forces you to think of better ways to do things and work within the constraints of the language).
My suggestion is javascript/HTML, the IDE is the most familiar app to most computer users - the browser, you don't need any dev tools, its totally cross platform, you have access to a powerful and pretty easy to understand display engine with html/css and you can write anything from a picture gallery to a text adventure, to a mario clone depending on your skill level.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30575078</id>
	<title>Let them do what they enjoy.</title>
	<author>msgyrd</author>
	<datestamp>1261991820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm a software developer, and having done it for a few years now, I spend my free time brewing beer and baking bread. Sometimes dealing with less rigid systems is far more enjoyable.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a software developer , and having done it for a few years now , I spend my free time brewing beer and baking bread .
Sometimes dealing with less rigid systems is far more enjoyable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a software developer, and having done it for a few years now, I spend my free time brewing beer and baking bread.
Sometimes dealing with less rigid systems is far more enjoyable.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30568518</id>
	<title>Re:HTML and Javascript</title>
	<author>Schnoogs</author>
	<datestamp>1261938720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>HTML is not a programming language.</htmltext>
<tokenext>HTML is not a programming language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>HTML is not a programming language.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566004</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567190</id>
	<title>Split up the work, and don't force it</title>
	<author>TikiTDO</author>
	<datestamp>1261922640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My advice, and take it as you will; if you want to "get low level with him" by using a programming language, forget it. Low level programming is something you need to understand completely in order to enjoy. I would start off with a simple and straight forward language. My personal choice would be Ruby, for it's clear syntax, and powerful features, but obviously this may not be everyone's cup of tea. Python or Java may be a good alternative. I would not suggest Perl as your first language, since it tries to cater to too many programming styles, and would be really confusing for a beginner. Whichever language you choose, use it to teach him programming fundamentals; specifically how to construct a logical framework that will solve a given problem. Do not get too deep into implementation: he is not likely to be ready to hear about memory management at this point. If you want to get creative, you can get him used to different paradigms, such functional programming with Lisp. Of course, this may be of limited use, depending on what he expects to do with these skills.</p><p>After that, if you, and he, truly have your minds set on low level languages, then I would start a bit lower with digital circuit design, with the basics of logic gates and memory. After that, at least cover the very basic CPU design. It should not be too hard to explain the basic RISC pipeline. In this stage it is critical not to delve into details, because while the concepts themselves are straightforward, covering all the formulas, special cases, rules, and caveats is enough to fill a four year engineering program. From then you can touch on assembler, and only after that would he actually be able to get the full benefit of knowing and understanding a low level language. If he does have a talent for it, then I strongly recommend the former method to get him familiar with the basic ideas, then the latter method to teach him how those basic ideas tie into existing systems.</p><p>Further, if you do try something like that, I would take a day at the start to go over how it all will tie together in the end. Maybe even make a diagram. This will save you a lot of headaches in the future, since you will be able to redirect all the "Why are we doing this again?" questions.</p><p>If he has the patience for it, this sort of knowledge would give him an invaluable step up on his classmates, so I do agree that it would be time well spent.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My advice , and take it as you will ; if you want to " get low level with him " by using a programming language , forget it .
Low level programming is something you need to understand completely in order to enjoy .
I would start off with a simple and straight forward language .
My personal choice would be Ruby , for it 's clear syntax , and powerful features , but obviously this may not be everyone 's cup of tea .
Python or Java may be a good alternative .
I would not suggest Perl as your first language , since it tries to cater to too many programming styles , and would be really confusing for a beginner .
Whichever language you choose , use it to teach him programming fundamentals ; specifically how to construct a logical framework that will solve a given problem .
Do not get too deep into implementation : he is not likely to be ready to hear about memory management at this point .
If you want to get creative , you can get him used to different paradigms , such functional programming with Lisp .
Of course , this may be of limited use , depending on what he expects to do with these skills.After that , if you , and he , truly have your minds set on low level languages , then I would start a bit lower with digital circuit design , with the basics of logic gates and memory .
After that , at least cover the very basic CPU design .
It should not be too hard to explain the basic RISC pipeline .
In this stage it is critical not to delve into details , because while the concepts themselves are straightforward , covering all the formulas , special cases , rules , and caveats is enough to fill a four year engineering program .
From then you can touch on assembler , and only after that would he actually be able to get the full benefit of knowing and understanding a low level language .
If he does have a talent for it , then I strongly recommend the former method to get him familiar with the basic ideas , then the latter method to teach him how those basic ideas tie into existing systems.Further , if you do try something like that , I would take a day at the start to go over how it all will tie together in the end .
Maybe even make a diagram .
This will save you a lot of headaches in the future , since you will be able to redirect all the " Why are we doing this again ?
" questions.If he has the patience for it , this sort of knowledge would give him an invaluable step up on his classmates , so I do agree that it would be time well spent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My advice, and take it as you will; if you want to "get low level with him" by using a programming language, forget it.
Low level programming is something you need to understand completely in order to enjoy.
I would start off with a simple and straight forward language.
My personal choice would be Ruby, for it's clear syntax, and powerful features, but obviously this may not be everyone's cup of tea.
Python or Java may be a good alternative.
I would not suggest Perl as your first language, since it tries to cater to too many programming styles, and would be really confusing for a beginner.
Whichever language you choose, use it to teach him programming fundamentals; specifically how to construct a logical framework that will solve a given problem.
Do not get too deep into implementation: he is not likely to be ready to hear about memory management at this point.
If you want to get creative, you can get him used to different paradigms, such functional programming with Lisp.
Of course, this may be of limited use, depending on what he expects to do with these skills.After that, if you, and he, truly have your minds set on low level languages, then I would start a bit lower with digital circuit design, with the basics of logic gates and memory.
After that, at least cover the very basic CPU design.
It should not be too hard to explain the basic RISC pipeline.
In this stage it is critical not to delve into details, because while the concepts themselves are straightforward, covering all the formulas, special cases, rules, and caveats is enough to fill a four year engineering program.
From then you can touch on assembler, and only after that would he actually be able to get the full benefit of knowing and understanding a low level language.
If he does have a talent for it, then I strongly recommend the former method to get him familiar with the basic ideas, then the latter method to teach him how those basic ideas tie into existing systems.Further, if you do try something like that, I would take a day at the start to go over how it all will tie together in the end.
Maybe even make a diagram.
This will save you a lot of headaches in the future, since you will be able to redirect all the "Why are we doing this again?
" questions.If he has the patience for it, this sort of knowledge would give him an invaluable step up on his classmates, so I do agree that it would be time well spent.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565708</id>
	<title>Scratch, ActionScript 3.0, MySQL, Sqeak: SmallTalk</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261909740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>All great languages for beginners:<br>Scratch, ActionScript 3.0, MySQL, Sqeak: SmallTalk</p><p>http://scratch.mit.edu/<br>http://www.squeak.org/<br>http://www.amazon.com/Squeak-Quick-ObjectLand-Gene-Korienek/dp/0201731142</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>All great languages for beginners : Scratch , ActionScript 3.0 , MySQL , Sqeak : SmallTalkhttp : //scratch.mit.edu/http : //www.squeak.org/http : //www.amazon.com/Squeak-Quick-ObjectLand-Gene-Korienek/dp/0201731142</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All great languages for beginners:Scratch, ActionScript 3.0, MySQL, Sqeak: SmallTalkhttp://scratch.mit.edu/http://www.squeak.org/http://www.amazon.com/Squeak-Quick-ObjectLand-Gene-Korienek/dp/0201731142</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30570360</id>
	<title>a word about pascal...</title>
	<author>eexaa</author>
	<datestamp>1262011260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One of the above post clearly says it: all you want to do in 12 is to see a nice 2D animated stuff.</p><p>As I've found, we don't have many "real" languages that make the simply-looking black drawboard easily accessible. In my 12, it was Borland Pascal with ega/vga BGI driver. I wrote stuff, pressed F9, wow it worked.</p><p>Today I'm seeing only various (unusuable) python libraries and several bad Logo implementations. C libs don't count, because kids can't compile them correctly (the magic F9 keypress ruled.)</p><p>So there I'm asking: is there some "use graph;" substitute for today Pascals (most suitably for FPC compiler, and probably running on redmondOS too?) or at least some nice IDE with run-the-magic button? I don't even care whether it's pascal or not, that one has just proven itself.</p><p>Sadly, I didn't found any.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One of the above post clearly says it : all you want to do in 12 is to see a nice 2D animated stuff.As I 've found , we do n't have many " real " languages that make the simply-looking black drawboard easily accessible .
In my 12 , it was Borland Pascal with ega/vga BGI driver .
I wrote stuff , pressed F9 , wow it worked.Today I 'm seeing only various ( unusuable ) python libraries and several bad Logo implementations .
C libs do n't count , because kids ca n't compile them correctly ( the magic F9 keypress ruled .
) So there I 'm asking : is there some " use graph ; " substitute for today Pascals ( most suitably for FPC compiler , and probably running on redmondOS too ?
) or at least some nice IDE with run-the-magic button ?
I do n't even care whether it 's pascal or not , that one has just proven itself.Sadly , I did n't found any .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One of the above post clearly says it: all you want to do in 12 is to see a nice 2D animated stuff.As I've found, we don't have many "real" languages that make the simply-looking black drawboard easily accessible.
In my 12, it was Borland Pascal with ega/vga BGI driver.
I wrote stuff, pressed F9, wow it worked.Today I'm seeing only various (unusuable) python libraries and several bad Logo implementations.
C libs don't count, because kids can't compile them correctly (the magic F9 keypress ruled.
)So there I'm asking: is there some "use graph;" substitute for today Pascals (most suitably for FPC compiler, and probably running on redmondOS too?
) or at least some nice IDE with run-the-magic button?
I don't even care whether it's pascal or not, that one has just proven itself.Sadly, I didn't found any.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565244</id>
	<title>Unix.</title>
	<author>dynamo</author>
	<datestamp>1261906260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The ideal programming language IMO to start him on is to make it clear that unix itself is a programming language, and show how it underlies so many modern electronic devices. Programs are functions, files are variables. I'd start by having him write some stuff for the command line. My first instinct to suggest is ruby, and I can't be objective on it but perl has always been a lot of fun for me, and then python, objectiveC, C, etc.. are all good options. Bash scripting is important to cover and mention from time to time but I'd not use it for a primary language.</p><p>The important thing is what you do with it. I don't know your son but in general the best way to grab a child's attention is by teaching them how to control something visual or audible and potentially cool. With this in mind, Javascript is another excellent choice due to the ease of changing visual elements and the natural lead-in to complexity. But there's a lot of noise between the differences of various html/css/javascript implementations so pick one and stick to it while he's learning - though a second well-chosen language would be helpful to teach generation of documents / programs / whatever in that second language.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The ideal programming language IMO to start him on is to make it clear that unix itself is a programming language , and show how it underlies so many modern electronic devices .
Programs are functions , files are variables .
I 'd start by having him write some stuff for the command line .
My first instinct to suggest is ruby , and I ca n't be objective on it but perl has always been a lot of fun for me , and then python , objectiveC , C , etc.. are all good options .
Bash scripting is important to cover and mention from time to time but I 'd not use it for a primary language.The important thing is what you do with it .
I do n't know your son but in general the best way to grab a child 's attention is by teaching them how to control something visual or audible and potentially cool .
With this in mind , Javascript is another excellent choice due to the ease of changing visual elements and the natural lead-in to complexity .
But there 's a lot of noise between the differences of various html/css/javascript implementations so pick one and stick to it while he 's learning - though a second well-chosen language would be helpful to teach generation of documents / programs / whatever in that second language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The ideal programming language IMO to start him on is to make it clear that unix itself is a programming language, and show how it underlies so many modern electronic devices.
Programs are functions, files are variables.
I'd start by having him write some stuff for the command line.
My first instinct to suggest is ruby, and I can't be objective on it but perl has always been a lot of fun for me, and then python, objectiveC, C, etc.. are all good options.
Bash scripting is important to cover and mention from time to time but I'd not use it for a primary language.The important thing is what you do with it.
I don't know your son but in general the best way to grab a child's attention is by teaching them how to control something visual or audible and potentially cool.
With this in mind, Javascript is another excellent choice due to the ease of changing visual elements and the natural lead-in to complexity.
But there's a lot of noise between the differences of various html/css/javascript implementations so pick one and stick to it while he's learning - though a second well-chosen language would be helpful to teach generation of documents / programs / whatever in that second language.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567632</id>
	<title>Programming languages are ephemeral</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261926780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you want to go low level, consider providing some basic knowledge about computer architecture first.  For example with a very simple architecture and its assembly language (emulator).  However, as already suggested, robotics may be more attractive to youngsters.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you want to go low level , consider providing some basic knowledge about computer architecture first .
For example with a very simple architecture and its assembly language ( emulator ) .
However , as already suggested , robotics may be more attractive to youngsters .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you want to go low level, consider providing some basic knowledge about computer architecture first.
For example with a very simple architecture and its assembly language (emulator).
However, as already suggested, robotics may be more attractive to youngsters.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566534</id>
	<title>From a Windows Programmer who uses Visual</title>
	<author>wizzerking</author>
	<datestamp>1261917000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You did not say what OS you are using, so I will try from a Windows Perspective.
First I really love GAMBAS <a href="http://gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html" title="sourceforge.net" rel="nofollow">http://gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html</a> [sourceforge.net] which is open source and free.
There are also the Visual Studio Express downloads from Microsoft.
If the child's interest is in creating games then there are specialized open source Games engine like moodle, and a bunch of other really weird sounding
names.  Until you are more specific it is really hard to go down a whole list of everything that is available, even if we restrict the list to Windows.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You did not say what OS you are using , so I will try from a Windows Perspective .
First I really love GAMBAS http : //gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html [ sourceforge.net ] which is open source and free .
There are also the Visual Studio Express downloads from Microsoft .
If the child 's interest is in creating games then there are specialized open source Games engine like moodle , and a bunch of other really weird sounding names .
Until you are more specific it is really hard to go down a whole list of everything that is available , even if we restrict the list to Windows .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You did not say what OS you are using, so I will try from a Windows Perspective.
First I really love GAMBAS http://gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html [sourceforge.net] which is open source and free.
There are also the Visual Studio Express downloads from Microsoft.
If the child's interest is in creating games then there are specialized open source Games engine like moodle, and a bunch of other really weird sounding
names.
Until you are more specific it is really hard to go down a whole list of everything that is available, even if we restrict the list to Windows.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567658</id>
	<title>teaching programming to a novice</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261927080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>first, pick some tasks and write pseudo-programs of only comments.  second, try some some c and lisp or prolog on a toy-program he has an interest in, and continue with comments and stubs.  get him a primer on agile programming even though he is working alone.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>first , pick some tasks and write pseudo-programs of only comments .
second , try some some c and lisp or prolog on a toy-program he has an interest in , and continue with comments and stubs .
get him a primer on agile programming even though he is working alone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>first, pick some tasks and write pseudo-programs of only comments.
second, try some some c and lisp or prolog on a toy-program he has an interest in, and continue with comments and stubs.
get him a primer on agile programming even though he is working alone.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565502</id>
	<title>Phrogram</title>
	<author>ghjm</author>
	<datestamp>1261908060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not free (by either definition), but it's the best thing for what you're talking about. It has a class-based language with similarities to Java and VB.NET but easier to learn, a simple 2D sprite engine that lets you write games immediately so you get positive feedback right away, and enough APIs to be able to do interesting things once you get somewhat sophisticated.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not free ( by either definition ) , but it 's the best thing for what you 're talking about .
It has a class-based language with similarities to Java and VB.NET but easier to learn , a simple 2D sprite engine that lets you write games immediately so you get positive feedback right away , and enough APIs to be able to do interesting things once you get somewhat sophisticated .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not free (by either definition), but it's the best thing for what you're talking about.
It has a class-based language with similarities to Java and VB.NET but easier to learn, a simple 2D sprite engine that lets you write games immediately so you get positive feedback right away, and enough APIs to be able to do interesting things once you get somewhat sophisticated.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567914</id>
	<title>Re:Perl</title>
	<author>a0schweitzer</author>
	<datestamp>1261929780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've just started to program, and I'm in the process of learning perl. Form this experience, I'd say it's a good place to start. It removes (from what I can tell) a need to focus on complicated syntax and allows you to learn the basics of loops and stuff before you have to worry about technicalities (like declaring variable types, etc). Mind you, I technically started programming on a TI-83, but hey. I assume if you're looking to teach him, it's becasue he wants to learn. As others have said, there's no point in teaching him to program if he doesn't have the right logic circuits.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've just started to program , and I 'm in the process of learning perl .
Form this experience , I 'd say it 's a good place to start .
It removes ( from what I can tell ) a need to focus on complicated syntax and allows you to learn the basics of loops and stuff before you have to worry about technicalities ( like declaring variable types , etc ) .
Mind you , I technically started programming on a TI-83 , but hey .
I assume if you 're looking to teach him , it 's becasue he wants to learn .
As others have said , there 's no point in teaching him to program if he does n't have the right logic circuits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've just started to program, and I'm in the process of learning perl.
Form this experience, I'd say it's a good place to start.
It removes (from what I can tell) a need to focus on complicated syntax and allows you to learn the basics of loops and stuff before you have to worry about technicalities (like declaring variable types, etc).
Mind you, I technically started programming on a TI-83, but hey.
I assume if you're looking to teach him, it's becasue he wants to learn.
As others have said, there's no point in teaching him to program if he doesn't have the right logic circuits.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565002</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30569266</id>
	<title>Processing.org</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261994700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Try the processing language at processing.org</p><p>This is by far the easiest way to pick up basics. It uses java language as a base, but leans more towards visualisations, graphics, interactions and sound.<br>You can write an arcade-style game in this using little more than imagination and simple code. The forum is active, books (with pictures) have been written to help along,<br>it's open source, there are libraries for all the 'cool' stuff that's out there at the moment. It has a related project called mobile processing to write mobile apps,<br>another related project for electronic hardware apps called arduino - all of these are used a lot in Sweden to teach high school and entry level programming.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Try the processing language at processing.orgThis is by far the easiest way to pick up basics .
It uses java language as a base , but leans more towards visualisations , graphics , interactions and sound.You can write an arcade-style game in this using little more than imagination and simple code .
The forum is active , books ( with pictures ) have been written to help along,it 's open source , there are libraries for all the 'cool ' stuff that 's out there at the moment .
It has a related project called mobile processing to write mobile apps,another related project for electronic hardware apps called arduino - all of these are used a lot in Sweden to teach high school and entry level programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Try the processing language at processing.orgThis is by far the easiest way to pick up basics.
It uses java language as a base, but leans more towards visualisations, graphics, interactions and sound.You can write an arcade-style game in this using little more than imagination and simple code.
The forum is active, books (with pictures) have been written to help along,it's open source, there are libraries for all the 'cool' stuff that's out there at the moment.
It has a related project called mobile processing to write mobile apps,another related project for electronic hardware apps called arduino - all of these are used a lot in Sweden to teach high school and entry level programming.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30576578</id>
	<title>C#</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261999740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At 12 I was learning assembly and found it the most fasinating language, it is raw, powerful and unresticted. However I'd show my children C# as a very good starting language simply because it is very easy to get something interesting up and running fast.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At 12 I was learning assembly and found it the most fasinating language , it is raw , powerful and unresticted .
However I 'd show my children C # as a very good starting language simply because it is very easy to get something interesting up and running fast .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At 12 I was learning assembly and found it the most fasinating language, it is raw, powerful and unresticted.
However I'd show my children C# as a very good starting language simply because it is very easy to get something interesting up and running fast.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565938</id>
	<title>Forbid him</title>
	<author>not-my-real-name</author>
	<datestamp>1261911780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Forbid him to learn programming.  You can be more specific than that - forbid him to learn Pascal or forbid him to write a program in Java that solves quadratic equations.  The main thing is to forbid him to do it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Forbid him to learn programming .
You can be more specific than that - forbid him to learn Pascal or forbid him to write a program in Java that solves quadratic equations .
The main thing is to forbid him to do it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Forbid him to learn programming.
You can be more specific than that - forbid him to learn Pascal or forbid him to write a program in Java that solves quadratic equations.
The main thing is to forbid him to do it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566168</id>
	<title>Re:Visual Basic</title>
	<author>westyvw</author>
	<datestamp>1261913640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Visual Basic makes me want to gouge my eyes out. Worse, its inconsistent with any other reasonable language.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Visual Basic makes me want to gouge my eyes out .
Worse , its inconsistent with any other reasonable language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Visual Basic makes me want to gouge my eyes out.
Worse, its inconsistent with any other reasonable language.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565536</id>
	<title>start with HTML then PHP</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261908360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>start off with HTML coding.</p><p>Teenagers like to see instant results and HTML language is fairly easy to pick up. You can help with setting up a website for the teen and then can go from there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>start off with HTML coding.Teenagers like to see instant results and HTML language is fairly easy to pick up .
You can help with setting up a website for the teen and then can go from there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>start off with HTML coding.Teenagers like to see instant results and HTML language is fairly easy to pick up.
You can help with setting up a website for the teen and then can go from there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565198</id>
	<title>Re:Programming</title>
	<author>SteveWoz</author>
	<datestamp>1261905840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's less important the content (how to program, which language) than the motivation, having the student want to learn it. When a youngster wants to learn something, they will learn more than you ever could have taught them. It's too easy for experts to not be teachers and lose the youngsters early.</p><p>If the kid wants to learn and you have the time and patience, you can never fail, one-on-one.</p><p>I agree strongly with you step-by-step approach to reaching your destination.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's less important the content ( how to program , which language ) than the motivation , having the student want to learn it .
When a youngster wants to learn something , they will learn more than you ever could have taught them .
It 's too easy for experts to not be teachers and lose the youngsters early.If the kid wants to learn and you have the time and patience , you can never fail , one-on-one.I agree strongly with you step-by-step approach to reaching your destination .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's less important the content (how to program, which language) than the motivation, having the student want to learn it.
When a youngster wants to learn something, they will learn more than you ever could have taught them.
It's too easy for experts to not be teachers and lose the youngsters early.If the kid wants to learn and you have the time and patience, you can never fail, one-on-one.I agree strongly with you step-by-step approach to reaching your destination.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30564852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566092</id>
	<title>Use a game dev evironment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261912980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would recommend the Unity3D dev environment, why?<br>It's free, it's easy,  use either javascript or mono, it comes with a lot of examples / tutorials.</p><p>but most importantly, it is very quick at making pretty 3D games, using one of the examples he can be coding his own super-mega laser gun to use against robots in the fps, for a 12 year old seeing this direct cause an effect, and taking control of a game like that, is a powerful incentive.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would recommend the Unity3D dev environment , why ? It 's free , it 's easy , use either javascript or mono , it comes with a lot of examples / tutorials.but most importantly , it is very quick at making pretty 3D games , using one of the examples he can be coding his own super-mega laser gun to use against robots in the fps , for a 12 year old seeing this direct cause an effect , and taking control of a game like that , is a powerful incentive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would recommend the Unity3D dev environment, why?It's free, it's easy,  use either javascript or mono, it comes with a lot of examples / tutorials.but most importantly, it is very quick at making pretty 3D games, using one of the examples he can be coding his own super-mega laser gun to use against robots in the fps, for a 12 year old seeing this direct cause an effect, and taking control of a game like that, is a powerful incentive.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30571112</id>
	<title>perl</title>
	<author>dalesyk</author>
	<datestamp>1262016060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>perl would be a good starter language because it's syntax is fairly simple and it has similarities to C.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>perl would be a good starter language because it 's syntax is fairly simple and it has similarities to C .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>perl would be a good starter language because it's syntax is fairly simple and it has similarities to C.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30566656</id>
	<title>Not BASIC! NOooooooo!!</title>
	<author>noz</author>
	<datestamp>1261918080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.</p></div></blockquote><p>
&nbsp; -- Dijkstra</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC : as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration .
  -- Dijkstra</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.
  -- Dijkstra
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30565582</id>
	<title>ALICE from CMU</title>
	<author>Proudrooster</author>
	<datestamp>1261908720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am sure someone has already posted it by now, but this about this.</p><p>What is the goal of programming?</p><p>To learn about objects, methods, functions, variables, loops, arrays, program flow, statefulness, events, design, and concurrency (threads).</p><p>You can do all of this in Alice from CMU.  <a href="http://alice.org/" title="alice.org">http://alice.org/</a> [alice.org]</p><p>Alice starts out as fun which is a great hook and quickly changes to a programming environment as you want to build more complex worlds.  Once students understand all the abstract concepts of programming then you can spring C, C++, Java, or whatever.  Alice is nice because you only have to learn one level of the abstraction at a time and not wrestle with programming syntax.  Having to deal with two abstractions (syntax + programming concepts) will lead to disinterest because it is HARD, even for people who like it.</p><p>I also recommend getting a Lego Mindstorms NXT.  You can run nearly any language on it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am sure someone has already posted it by now , but this about this.What is the goal of programming ? To learn about objects , methods , functions , variables , loops , arrays , program flow , statefulness , events , design , and concurrency ( threads ) .You can do all of this in Alice from CMU .
http : //alice.org/ [ alice.org ] Alice starts out as fun which is a great hook and quickly changes to a programming environment as you want to build more complex worlds .
Once students understand all the abstract concepts of programming then you can spring C , C + + , Java , or whatever .
Alice is nice because you only have to learn one level of the abstraction at a time and not wrestle with programming syntax .
Having to deal with two abstractions ( syntax + programming concepts ) will lead to disinterest because it is HARD , even for people who like it.I also recommend getting a Lego Mindstorms NXT .
You can run nearly any language on it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am sure someone has already posted it by now, but this about this.What is the goal of programming?To learn about objects, methods, functions, variables, loops, arrays, program flow, statefulness, events, design, and concurrency (threads).You can do all of this in Alice from CMU.
http://alice.org/ [alice.org]Alice starts out as fun which is a great hook and quickly changes to a programming environment as you want to build more complex worlds.
Once students understand all the abstract concepts of programming then you can spring C, C++, Java, or whatever.
Alice is nice because you only have to learn one level of the abstraction at a time and not wrestle with programming syntax.
Having to deal with two abstractions (syntax + programming concepts) will lead to disinterest because it is HARD, even for people who like it.I also recommend getting a Lego Mindstorms NXT.
You can run nearly any language on it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_27_1857225.30567256</id>
	<title>Web vrs local programs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261923240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He will need somewhere to run any web code (either locally or on a hosted site) vrs a standalone language like basic or<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.net which can be ran locally. Well you can run html locally but it is hard to show it off to your buddies or remote family members.  If he is interested, I suggest getting a hosted site (free or otherwise) and getting him to work on stuff he can show off to friends.</p><p>I suggest PHP, as you can mix html code, and it can be used to read/write flat files as well as a DB like MySQL for data storage.</p><p>Good luck regardless of what you do, as we could use another budding programmer in the US.<br>Joe</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He will need somewhere to run any web code ( either locally or on a hosted site ) vrs a standalone language like basic or .net which can be ran locally .
Well you can run html locally but it is hard to show it off to your buddies or remote family members .
If he is interested , I suggest getting a hosted site ( free or otherwise ) and getting him to work on stuff he can show off to friends.I suggest PHP , as you can mix html code , and it can be used to read/write flat files as well as a DB like MySQL for data storage.Good luck regardless of what you do , as we could use another budding programmer in the US.Joe</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He will need somewhere to run any web code (either locally or on a hosted site) vrs a standalone language like basic or .net which can be ran locally.
Well you can run html locally but it is hard to show it off to your buddies or remote family members.
If he is interested, I suggest getting a hosted site (free or otherwise) and getting him to work on stuff he can show off to friends.I suggest PHP, as you can mix html code, and it can be used to read/write flat files as well as a DB like MySQL for data storage.Good luck regardless of what you do, as we could use another budding programmer in the US.Joe</sentencetext>
</comment>
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