<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_12_20_1656248</id>
	<title>When Developers Work Late, Should the Manager Stay?</title>
	<author>Soulskill</author>
	<datestamp>1261334580000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>jammag writes <i>"A veteran developer looks back &mdash; in irritation &mdash; at those times he had to work late and his unskilled manager stayed too, just to <a href="http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/article.php/3854421/When-Developers-Work-Late-Should-Manager-Stay-or-Go.htm">look over his shoulder and add worry and fret to the process</a>. Now, that same developer is a manager himself &mdash; and recently stayed late to ride herd over late-working developers. 'And guess what? Yep, I hadn't coded in years and never in the language he had to work with.' Yet now he understood: his own butt was on the line, so he was staying put. Still, does it really help developers to have management hovering on a late evening, even if the boss handles pizza delivery?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>jammag writes " A veteran developer looks back    in irritation    at those times he had to work late and his unskilled manager stayed too , just to look over his shoulder and add worry and fret to the process .
Now , that same developer is a manager himself    and recently stayed late to ride herd over late-working developers .
'And guess what ?
Yep , I had n't coded in years and never in the language he had to work with .
' Yet now he understood : his own butt was on the line , so he was staying put .
Still , does it really help developers to have management hovering on a late evening , even if the boss handles pizza delivery ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>jammag writes "A veteran developer looks back — in irritation — at those times he had to work late and his unskilled manager stayed too, just to look over his shoulder and add worry and fret to the process.
Now, that same developer is a manager himself — and recently stayed late to ride herd over late-working developers.
'And guess what?
Yep, I hadn't coded in years and never in the language he had to work with.
' Yet now he understood: his own butt was on the line, so he was staying put.
Still, does it really help developers to have management hovering on a late evening, even if the boss handles pizza delivery?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505900</id>
	<title>Yes</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1261340940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, the manager should be staying late as well to handle everything that is not development. Make coffee, order pizza, shoo the cleaning staff away, even call people for the developers if desired.</p><p>If they're looking over shoulders, making people nervous pacing and repeatedly asking "are we there yet" like a 5 year old on a trip, they really should NEVER be there, that is, they shouldn't BE the manager.</p><p>A helpful manager after hours builds team cohesion and inspires the team to follow them. They prove themselves worthy of being followed.Since nobody wants to stay late because they have to, the manager who stays proves that he's not just giving the shirt off of other people's backs.</p><p>A manager who could be helpful but instead goes home sends the entirely the wrong message. He proves that he thinks himself better and that he expects to simply crack the whip from on high and have the peons grovel in response. He will easily over-promise to the team's detriment since he won't himself ever suffer for it.</p><p>All of this presumes it's really an all hands on crunch. OTOH, some developers just like to stay late for some focused work when everything is quiet. Where there is flexibility, they may do that for a few days then take a day off or they may work late and come in late where permitted during normal times. There is no need for the manager to stay in those cases. A good manager will know when that's the case.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , the manager should be staying late as well to handle everything that is not development .
Make coffee , order pizza , shoo the cleaning staff away , even call people for the developers if desired.If they 're looking over shoulders , making people nervous pacing and repeatedly asking " are we there yet " like a 5 year old on a trip , they really should NEVER be there , that is , they should n't BE the manager.A helpful manager after hours builds team cohesion and inspires the team to follow them .
They prove themselves worthy of being followed.Since nobody wants to stay late because they have to , the manager who stays proves that he 's not just giving the shirt off of other people 's backs.A manager who could be helpful but instead goes home sends the entirely the wrong message .
He proves that he thinks himself better and that he expects to simply crack the whip from on high and have the peons grovel in response .
He will easily over-promise to the team 's detriment since he wo n't himself ever suffer for it.All of this presumes it 's really an all hands on crunch .
OTOH , some developers just like to stay late for some focused work when everything is quiet .
Where there is flexibility , they may do that for a few days then take a day off or they may work late and come in late where permitted during normal times .
There is no need for the manager to stay in those cases .
A good manager will know when that 's the case .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, the manager should be staying late as well to handle everything that is not development.
Make coffee, order pizza, shoo the cleaning staff away, even call people for the developers if desired.If they're looking over shoulders, making people nervous pacing and repeatedly asking "are we there yet" like a 5 year old on a trip, they really should NEVER be there, that is, they shouldn't BE the manager.A helpful manager after hours builds team cohesion and inspires the team to follow them.
They prove themselves worthy of being followed.Since nobody wants to stay late because they have to, the manager who stays proves that he's not just giving the shirt off of other people's backs.A manager who could be helpful but instead goes home sends the entirely the wrong message.
He proves that he thinks himself better and that he expects to simply crack the whip from on high and have the peons grovel in response.
He will easily over-promise to the team's detriment since he won't himself ever suffer for it.All of this presumes it's really an all hands on crunch.
OTOH, some developers just like to stay late for some focused work when everything is quiet.
Where there is flexibility, they may do that for a few days then take a day off or they may work late and come in late where permitted during normal times.
There is no need for the manager to stay in those cases.
A good manager will know when that's the case.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505980</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261341540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Absolutely agreed!  When I have to stay late, my boss usually stays and goes out to get us dinner and run errands for us.  If I want a smoothy from the place four blocks away? All I have to do is ask him, and he's happy to grab it for me.  In his words, he can't do much to help us, so he'll do whatever he can to support us.  So as long as you're playing a support role and not a slave-driver role, stay late with your team!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Absolutely agreed !
When I have to stay late , my boss usually stays and goes out to get us dinner and run errands for us .
If I want a smoothy from the place four blocks away ?
All I have to do is ask him , and he 's happy to grab it for me .
In his words , he ca n't do much to help us , so he 'll do whatever he can to support us .
So as long as you 're playing a support role and not a slave-driver role , stay late with your team !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Absolutely agreed!
When I have to stay late, my boss usually stays and goes out to get us dinner and run errands for us.
If I want a smoothy from the place four blocks away?
All I have to do is ask him, and he's happy to grab it for me.
In his words, he can't do much to help us, so he'll do whatever he can to support us.
So as long as you're playing a support role and not a slave-driver role, stay late with your team!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507166</id>
	<title>Re:Middle managers have little power over deadline</title>
	<author>quanticle</author>
	<datestamp>1261308420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If it is the case, then the manager has to make that clear to the developers at the beginning of the project.  Having a manager that pretends that the project is doable is worse than not having one at all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If it is the case , then the manager has to make that clear to the developers at the beginning of the project .
Having a manager that pretends that the project is doable is worse than not having one at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If it is the case, then the manager has to make that clear to the developers at the beginning of the project.
Having a manager that pretends that the project is doable is worse than not having one at all.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506530</id>
	<title>It Depends On The Situation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261302960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Like anything else, there's no right answer. It's not black and white.</p><p>My default is to never leave my guys alone if I can help it, and/or it makes sense. If it's a minor complexity or criticality problem, I'll just leave the guy and trust him to do his job. I try to build trust on my team - and let the developers own their stuff. I always hated being micromanaged, and I don't do it to my guys.</p><p>But if it's a high visibility problem, with significant financial or operational risk, then we're all in it together.</p><p>Depending on how the problem unfolds, I might be able to help with the debugging, or to coordinate different efforts that my guys have going on. I also find that it's my job to gather information that can help in the fixes, or in the workaround. The business/users needs to be managed, status needs to be communicated, phone calls need ot be made to get other support people on line, or grease the wheels / pre-cache work in order to help speed the implementation once the code is fixed. There's a lot to do, to keep the pressure off the team and to help them so they only have to worry about doing their job.</p><p>At the same time, if it's a long term (meaning more than a couple hours) fix, then the logical thing is to break the team into shifts. So that when the current guys are wiped out, the second team can pick up the work.</p><p>For the big problems, I find myself going onto team 2, which is usually the 'morning shift'. My thinking being that in the early morning the business and my senior management comes in and wants to know what's going on. I need to be fresh for that - and also, if the problem isn't fixed, I need to be able to speak to what went wrong, as well as help where I can with contingency, etc.</p><p>Bottom line - don't be a primadonna as a manager. Help where you can - coordinate, give ideas, be a sounding board, stop bad ideas that go down the wrong path, manage the users, buy pizza, etc. And make sure that when you do go home, make sure that the team trusts YOU. They need to know that you're leaving for good reason...not just because you want to go home.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Like anything else , there 's no right answer .
It 's not black and white.My default is to never leave my guys alone if I can help it , and/or it makes sense .
If it 's a minor complexity or criticality problem , I 'll just leave the guy and trust him to do his job .
I try to build trust on my team - and let the developers own their stuff .
I always hated being micromanaged , and I do n't do it to my guys.But if it 's a high visibility problem , with significant financial or operational risk , then we 're all in it together.Depending on how the problem unfolds , I might be able to help with the debugging , or to coordinate different efforts that my guys have going on .
I also find that it 's my job to gather information that can help in the fixes , or in the workaround .
The business/users needs to be managed , status needs to be communicated , phone calls need ot be made to get other support people on line , or grease the wheels / pre-cache work in order to help speed the implementation once the code is fixed .
There 's a lot to do , to keep the pressure off the team and to help them so they only have to worry about doing their job.At the same time , if it 's a long term ( meaning more than a couple hours ) fix , then the logical thing is to break the team into shifts .
So that when the current guys are wiped out , the second team can pick up the work.For the big problems , I find myself going onto team 2 , which is usually the 'morning shift' .
My thinking being that in the early morning the business and my senior management comes in and wants to know what 's going on .
I need to be fresh for that - and also , if the problem is n't fixed , I need to be able to speak to what went wrong , as well as help where I can with contingency , etc.Bottom line - do n't be a primadonna as a manager .
Help where you can - coordinate , give ideas , be a sounding board , stop bad ideas that go down the wrong path , manage the users , buy pizza , etc .
And make sure that when you do go home , make sure that the team trusts YOU .
They need to know that you 're leaving for good reason...not just because you want to go home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Like anything else, there's no right answer.
It's not black and white.My default is to never leave my guys alone if I can help it, and/or it makes sense.
If it's a minor complexity or criticality problem, I'll just leave the guy and trust him to do his job.
I try to build trust on my team - and let the developers own their stuff.
I always hated being micromanaged, and I don't do it to my guys.But if it's a high visibility problem, with significant financial or operational risk, then we're all in it together.Depending on how the problem unfolds, I might be able to help with the debugging, or to coordinate different efforts that my guys have going on.
I also find that it's my job to gather information that can help in the fixes, or in the workaround.
The business/users needs to be managed, status needs to be communicated, phone calls need ot be made to get other support people on line, or grease the wheels / pre-cache work in order to help speed the implementation once the code is fixed.
There's a lot to do, to keep the pressure off the team and to help them so they only have to worry about doing their job.At the same time, if it's a long term (meaning more than a couple hours) fix, then the logical thing is to break the team into shifts.
So that when the current guys are wiped out, the second team can pick up the work.For the big problems, I find myself going onto team 2, which is usually the 'morning shift'.
My thinking being that in the early morning the business and my senior management comes in and wants to know what's going on.
I need to be fresh for that - and also, if the problem isn't fixed, I need to be able to speak to what went wrong, as well as help where I can with contingency, etc.Bottom line - don't be a primadonna as a manager.
Help where you can - coordinate, give ideas, be a sounding board, stop bad ideas that go down the wrong path, manage the users, buy pizza, etc.
And make sure that when you do go home, make sure that the team trusts YOU.
They need to know that you're leaving for good reason...not just because you want to go home.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30510582</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1261396980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here you see the difference between good and bad management. A bad manager is always worried that he could be left out and rendered obsolete. If you have to establish some arbitrary rules that slow down the process just to get you involved, you're a bad manager.</p><p>In a nutshell, a bad manager forces you to communicate through him and cost you time. A good manager makes you want to do it because it saves you time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here you see the difference between good and bad management .
A bad manager is always worried that he could be left out and rendered obsolete .
If you have to establish some arbitrary rules that slow down the process just to get you involved , you 're a bad manager.In a nutshell , a bad manager forces you to communicate through him and cost you time .
A good manager makes you want to do it because it saves you time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here you see the difference between good and bad management.
A bad manager is always worried that he could be left out and rendered obsolete.
If you have to establish some arbitrary rules that slow down the process just to get you involved, you're a bad manager.In a nutshell, a bad manager forces you to communicate through him and cost you time.
A good manager makes you want to do it because it saves you time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506090</id>
	<title>There for support...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261342500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have been on both sides of the fence, with "manager" being my current role and my take is this:  If my people are sacrificing their "home" time to meet a deadline, I feel it is my duty and responsibility to be along with them.  However, I don't sit and ride people and look over their shoulders.  If anything, I am there for moral support and to show them that they aren't in this alone and that their efforts are appreciated.  I always take care of the snacks.  The crew knows I'm not just a "paper manager" and that I was in the trenches at one point as well, so the respect is there.</p><p>I have to say, though, that I had a similar manager when I was a young cub and I thought highly of that person, thus, I crafted my managerial style accordingly.  It seems to be working well for me and for the team.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have been on both sides of the fence , with " manager " being my current role and my take is this : If my people are sacrificing their " home " time to meet a deadline , I feel it is my duty and responsibility to be along with them .
However , I do n't sit and ride people and look over their shoulders .
If anything , I am there for moral support and to show them that they are n't in this alone and that their efforts are appreciated .
I always take care of the snacks .
The crew knows I 'm not just a " paper manager " and that I was in the trenches at one point as well , so the respect is there.I have to say , though , that I had a similar manager when I was a young cub and I thought highly of that person , thus , I crafted my managerial style accordingly .
It seems to be working well for me and for the team .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have been on both sides of the fence, with "manager" being my current role and my take is this:  If my people are sacrificing their "home" time to meet a deadline, I feel it is my duty and responsibility to be along with them.
However, I don't sit and ride people and look over their shoulders.
If anything, I am there for moral support and to show them that they aren't in this alone and that their efforts are appreciated.
I always take care of the snacks.
The crew knows I'm not just a "paper manager" and that I was in the trenches at one point as well, so the respect is there.I have to say, though, that I had a similar manager when I was a young cub and I thought highly of that person, thus, I crafted my managerial style accordingly.
It seems to be working well for me and for the team.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506828</id>
	<title>I wouldn't consider myself 'management'</title>
	<author>goldcd</author>
	<datestamp>1261305960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>possibly more an architect role. I write my ramblings and ideas in a document and some poor sap has to try and shape that into functioning code.<br>
I used to be on the other end of this and there was NOTHING more miserable than sitting in an office, slaving away to get something functioning - and then hitting a logical block, where the person with the answer was sat at home eating their dinner.<br>
Personally if my team is now working on something, I'd like to think I'd be the last one to leave the office. It's not a martyr act, or wanting to micro-manage - it's just I'm in notionally responsible for this piece of work. If we're sitting there late, then I've screwed up. I'll get coffee, pizza, whatever they want. If there's any work I'm capable of doing, I'll be doing it. If not I'll just be doing everything I can to help (and yes that means leaving them alone and just being there if there's a question).<br>
Possibly something that's been overlooked is that there needs to be somebody there to decide when it's too late, everybody needs to go home and get some sleep - and is prepared to explain and take responsibility to 'above' why the task wasn't completed that night.<br>
I'm not sure if it's ever recognized as an occasionally required role, but sometimes somebody just needs to stop the shit being hurled at the people on the coal-face.</htmltext>
<tokenext>possibly more an architect role .
I write my ramblings and ideas in a document and some poor sap has to try and shape that into functioning code .
I used to be on the other end of this and there was NOTHING more miserable than sitting in an office , slaving away to get something functioning - and then hitting a logical block , where the person with the answer was sat at home eating their dinner .
Personally if my team is now working on something , I 'd like to think I 'd be the last one to leave the office .
It 's not a martyr act , or wanting to micro-manage - it 's just I 'm in notionally responsible for this piece of work .
If we 're sitting there late , then I 've screwed up .
I 'll get coffee , pizza , whatever they want .
If there 's any work I 'm capable of doing , I 'll be doing it .
If not I 'll just be doing everything I can to help ( and yes that means leaving them alone and just being there if there 's a question ) .
Possibly something that 's been overlooked is that there needs to be somebody there to decide when it 's too late , everybody needs to go home and get some sleep - and is prepared to explain and take responsibility to 'above ' why the task was n't completed that night .
I 'm not sure if it 's ever recognized as an occasionally required role , but sometimes somebody just needs to stop the shit being hurled at the people on the coal-face .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>possibly more an architect role.
I write my ramblings and ideas in a document and some poor sap has to try and shape that into functioning code.
I used to be on the other end of this and there was NOTHING more miserable than sitting in an office, slaving away to get something functioning - and then hitting a logical block, where the person with the answer was sat at home eating their dinner.
Personally if my team is now working on something, I'd like to think I'd be the last one to leave the office.
It's not a martyr act, or wanting to micro-manage - it's just I'm in notionally responsible for this piece of work.
If we're sitting there late, then I've screwed up.
I'll get coffee, pizza, whatever they want.
If there's any work I'm capable of doing, I'll be doing it.
If not I'll just be doing everything I can to help (and yes that means leaving them alone and just being there if there's a question).
Possibly something that's been overlooked is that there needs to be somebody there to decide when it's too late, everybody needs to go home and get some sleep - and is prepared to explain and take responsibility to 'above' why the task wasn't completed that night.
I'm not sure if it's ever recognized as an occasionally required role, but sometimes somebody just needs to stop the shit being hurled at the people on the coal-face.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506056</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30508632</id>
	<title>Managers suck</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261325580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The the large (two letter) defense contractor i work for the managers "ask" for you to stay, but then claim the "entire" project is on the line if you dont... then when i work all night to get it done... i get crapped on.</p><p>Project managers could care less. They've obviously spent too much time in the navy or something... because i'm not captured $2 hour labor like some seaman...</p><p>The place is a nightmare in general, everyone is a tough guy, everyone is stupid but them... they yell and scream at people, and treat them like idiots...</p><p>Yea... first chance to leap im gone.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The the large ( two letter ) defense contractor i work for the managers " ask " for you to stay , but then claim the " entire " project is on the line if you dont... then when i work all night to get it done... i get crapped on.Project managers could care less .
They 've obviously spent too much time in the navy or something... because i 'm not captured $ 2 hour labor like some seaman...The place is a nightmare in general , everyone is a tough guy , everyone is stupid but them... they yell and scream at people , and treat them like idiots...Yea... first chance to leap im gone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The the large (two letter) defense contractor i work for the managers "ask" for you to stay, but then claim the "entire" project is on the line if you dont... then when i work all night to get it done... i get crapped on.Project managers could care less.
They've obviously spent too much time in the navy or something... because i'm not captured $2 hour labor like some seaman...The place is a nightmare in general, everyone is a tough guy, everyone is stupid but them... they yell and scream at people, and treat them like idiots...Yea... first chance to leap im gone.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505538</id>
	<title>As long as he knows how to ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261338360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... STFU, keeps the hell out of the way, and does nothing other than bring pizza (and a few beers later on towards the end of the shift), that's ok.</p><p>Anything else is NOT HELPING!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... STFU , keeps the hell out of the way , and does nothing other than bring pizza ( and a few beers later on towards the end of the shift ) , that 's ok.Anything else is NOT HELPING !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... STFU, keeps the hell out of the way, and does nothing other than bring pizza (and a few beers later on towards the end of the shift), that's ok.Anything else is NOT HELPING!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30513524</id>
	<title>Sometimes I don't mind, other times I do</title>
	<author>rgviza</author>
	<datestamp>1261418040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>doesn't bother me... with one exception. You are doing the implementation, something that would take 5 minutes to fix pops up, and it gets rolled back because of it. What they don't know won't hurt them and if it ends up taking longer, rollback is still an option so you lose nothing by working out the implementation kink. There's always at least one with a complex application and making me come in on a weekend, AGAIN because of a 5 minute problem really irks me. Shit happens, let me deal with it and get it done, especially when the rollback takes longer than the hot fix would.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>does n't bother me... with one exception .
You are doing the implementation , something that would take 5 minutes to fix pops up , and it gets rolled back because of it .
What they do n't know wo n't hurt them and if it ends up taking longer , rollback is still an option so you lose nothing by working out the implementation kink .
There 's always at least one with a complex application and making me come in on a weekend , AGAIN because of a 5 minute problem really irks me .
Shit happens , let me deal with it and get it done , especially when the rollback takes longer than the hot fix would .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>doesn't bother me... with one exception.
You are doing the implementation, something that would take 5 minutes to fix pops up, and it gets rolled back because of it.
What they don't know won't hurt them and if it ends up taking longer, rollback is still an option so you lose nothing by working out the implementation kink.
There's always at least one with a complex application and making me come in on a weekend, AGAIN because of a 5 minute problem really irks me.
Shit happens, let me deal with it and get it done, especially when the rollback takes longer than the hot fix would.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30538294</id>
	<title>Re:Real Time Coding</title>
	<author>AthleteMusicianNerd</author>
	<datestamp>1259744700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Good shit!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Good shit !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good shit!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506200</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505866</id>
	<title>Both are annoying, from experience.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261340820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is annoying when the CIO inquires every five minutes about how things are going, and if we are nearing resolution, offering different ways of patching the problem, each diverting from the problem at hand every single time.</p><p>Then again, it is terribly annoying when the CIO asks for something very last minute, demands that it be ready for tommorow, and then takes off, leaving everyone to work on it until 10pm.</p><p>Not sure which is more annoying. I wish there was a middle ground somewhere.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is annoying when the CIO inquires every five minutes about how things are going , and if we are nearing resolution , offering different ways of patching the problem , each diverting from the problem at hand every single time.Then again , it is terribly annoying when the CIO asks for something very last minute , demands that it be ready for tommorow , and then takes off , leaving everyone to work on it until 10pm.Not sure which is more annoying .
I wish there was a middle ground somewhere .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is annoying when the CIO inquires every five minutes about how things are going, and if we are nearing resolution, offering different ways of patching the problem, each diverting from the problem at hand every single time.Then again, it is terribly annoying when the CIO asks for something very last minute, demands that it be ready for tommorow, and then takes off, leaving everyone to work on it until 10pm.Not sure which is more annoying.
I wish there was a middle ground somewhere.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507022</id>
	<title>Re:Only if...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261307340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Only if the manager stays late to 1) eliminate external distractions, 2) order meals, 3) test, or 4) write macros, scripts or other shippable elements, if the product supports such features.</p></div><p>
while a lot of developers won't admit there are other good reasons to stay late, some developers while hard working and meaning well don't prioritise stuff well. For instance I was managing a project (and coding on it too), one of the developers was perhaps one of the smartest devs I have ever worked with, but when it came to business sense he had none, he would spend time perfecting and documenting routines that were invisible to the user when in 2 days time we had a customer deliverable where looks far outwieghed coding beauty. "Some" devs need supervision, even if it is only a short meeting every few hours for status reports so you can be sure they are working on the right priorities.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Only if the manager stays late to 1 ) eliminate external distractions , 2 ) order meals , 3 ) test , or 4 ) write macros , scripts or other shippable elements , if the product supports such features .
while a lot of developers wo n't admit there are other good reasons to stay late , some developers while hard working and meaning well do n't prioritise stuff well .
For instance I was managing a project ( and coding on it too ) , one of the developers was perhaps one of the smartest devs I have ever worked with , but when it came to business sense he had none , he would spend time perfecting and documenting routines that were invisible to the user when in 2 days time we had a customer deliverable where looks far outwieghed coding beauty .
" Some " devs need supervision , even if it is only a short meeting every few hours for status reports so you can be sure they are working on the right priorities .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Only if the manager stays late to 1) eliminate external distractions, 2) order meals, 3) test, or 4) write macros, scripts or other shippable elements, if the product supports such features.
while a lot of developers won't admit there are other good reasons to stay late, some developers while hard working and meaning well don't prioritise stuff well.
For instance I was managing a project (and coding on it too), one of the developers was perhaps one of the smartest devs I have ever worked with, but when it came to business sense he had none, he would spend time perfecting and documenting routines that were invisible to the user when in 2 days time we had a customer deliverable where looks far outwieghed coding beauty.
"Some" devs need supervision, even if it is only a short meeting every few hours for status reports so you can be sure they are working on the right priorities.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505632</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506540</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>93 Escort Wagon</author>
	<datestamp>1261303020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Let me second this. Managers should add to the efficiency of a team.  Make it clear that you're staying to support them, not harass them. Stay out of sight, but make it clear that they can call on you for communication with the rest of the team, as well as keeping people refreshed.</p></div><p>Maybe it's because I'm part of a small team - but I don't really get this. I can communicate with my co-workers directly much better than if my words have to be filtered through my manager. That's just adding an unnecessary layer of possible misinterpretation/mistranslation (even if he had my particular skillset, which he doesn't).</p><p>Same thing when I'm working on a project with non-technical (meaning non-IT) people from outside our group. When I work directly with those people, the project goes much faster (easily 2x-3x) than those times when all communication with the outside folks is through my manager. Fortunately the former case is much more common than the latter - but unfortunately right now I'm in a project that falls in that latter category.</p><p>Nothing against managers, but I feel like they should get out of the way once a project is going. If long hours are required, rather than look over their shoulder - give them the deadline but tell them they can do the work from home (when it's feasible) if they'd prefer. And definitely, always... make sure to tell them you appreciate their hard work - and MEAN it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Let me second this .
Managers should add to the efficiency of a team .
Make it clear that you 're staying to support them , not harass them .
Stay out of sight , but make it clear that they can call on you for communication with the rest of the team , as well as keeping people refreshed.Maybe it 's because I 'm part of a small team - but I do n't really get this .
I can communicate with my co-workers directly much better than if my words have to be filtered through my manager .
That 's just adding an unnecessary layer of possible misinterpretation/mistranslation ( even if he had my particular skillset , which he does n't ) .Same thing when I 'm working on a project with non-technical ( meaning non-IT ) people from outside our group .
When I work directly with those people , the project goes much faster ( easily 2x-3x ) than those times when all communication with the outside folks is through my manager .
Fortunately the former case is much more common than the latter - but unfortunately right now I 'm in a project that falls in that latter category.Nothing against managers , but I feel like they should get out of the way once a project is going .
If long hours are required , rather than look over their shoulder - give them the deadline but tell them they can do the work from home ( when it 's feasible ) if they 'd prefer .
And definitely , always... make sure to tell them you appreciate their hard work - and MEAN it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let me second this.
Managers should add to the efficiency of a team.
Make it clear that you're staying to support them, not harass them.
Stay out of sight, but make it clear that they can call on you for communication with the rest of the team, as well as keeping people refreshed.Maybe it's because I'm part of a small team - but I don't really get this.
I can communicate with my co-workers directly much better than if my words have to be filtered through my manager.
That's just adding an unnecessary layer of possible misinterpretation/mistranslation (even if he had my particular skillset, which he doesn't).Same thing when I'm working on a project with non-technical (meaning non-IT) people from outside our group.
When I work directly with those people, the project goes much faster (easily 2x-3x) than those times when all communication with the outside folks is through my manager.
Fortunately the former case is much more common than the latter - but unfortunately right now I'm in a project that falls in that latter category.Nothing against managers, but I feel like they should get out of the way once a project is going.
If long hours are required, rather than look over their shoulder - give them the deadline but tell them they can do the work from home (when it's feasible) if they'd prefer.
And definitely, always... make sure to tell them you appreciate their hard work - and MEAN it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505744</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30535668</id>
	<title>Overtime</title>
	<author>geek2k5</author>
	<datestamp>1259772360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I worked for one company where the boss stated that working overtime to get something done was counter productive.  The longer you worked, the more mistakes you made and the less productive you were in the long run.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I worked for one company where the boss stated that working overtime to get something done was counter productive .
The longer you worked , the more mistakes you made and the less productive you were in the long run .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I worked for one company where the boss stated that working overtime to get something done was counter productive.
The longer you worked, the more mistakes you made and the less productive you were in the long run.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505708</id>
	<title>Clarity</title>
	<author>The\_Hooleyman</author>
	<datestamp>1261339620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If the manager is a true leader they should be available (there or in contact) to give clarity.

The worst overtime experiences I ever had were caused by ambiguity. Are we done now? How about now? What is the measure of success tonight? Managers who ask you to come in for attendance, but not a goal, have no clarity themselves.

If you know what the goal is (ie. Clicking SUBMIT 10 times will no longer crash the database/app/game) then you can focus and feel good when you've finished. You don't need anyone around if you have clarity, unless it's to support you with food, drinks, or more clarity.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If the manager is a true leader they should be available ( there or in contact ) to give clarity .
The worst overtime experiences I ever had were caused by ambiguity .
Are we done now ?
How about now ?
What is the measure of success tonight ?
Managers who ask you to come in for attendance , but not a goal , have no clarity themselves .
If you know what the goal is ( ie .
Clicking SUBMIT 10 times will no longer crash the database/app/game ) then you can focus and feel good when you 've finished .
You do n't need anyone around if you have clarity , unless it 's to support you with food , drinks , or more clarity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the manager is a true leader they should be available (there or in contact) to give clarity.
The worst overtime experiences I ever had were caused by ambiguity.
Are we done now?
How about now?
What is the measure of success tonight?
Managers who ask you to come in for attendance, but not a goal, have no clarity themselves.
If you know what the goal is (ie.
Clicking SUBMIT 10 times will no longer crash the database/app/game) then you can focus and feel good when you've finished.
You don't need anyone around if you have clarity, unless it's to support you with food, drinks, or more clarity.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507794</id>
	<title>Re:No</title>
	<author>Dutch Gun</author>
	<datestamp>1261315260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The videogame industry is pretty notorious for this, and with fairly good reason.  Unfortunately, with unemployment rising and the economy faltering, companies feel a bit more free to demand mandatory overtime from game devs.  There is also much less resistance to overtime from young, single programmers with no real family commitments.  Most people in the game industry love what they do, so for some, it's not a horrible hardship to work longer hours.</p><p>Honestly, I'd start planning an exit strategy.  It's always a bit scary to switch jobs, but an employer's attitude toward mandatory overtime is a pretty huge issue for me.  On the plus side, you're reaching a threshold of experience which will make it much easier to switch jobs if needed.  Believe it or not, there are a few companies out there who don't believe your weekends and evenings automatically belong to the company.  It takes a while to ferret them out, though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The videogame industry is pretty notorious for this , and with fairly good reason .
Unfortunately , with unemployment rising and the economy faltering , companies feel a bit more free to demand mandatory overtime from game devs .
There is also much less resistance to overtime from young , single programmers with no real family commitments .
Most people in the game industry love what they do , so for some , it 's not a horrible hardship to work longer hours.Honestly , I 'd start planning an exit strategy .
It 's always a bit scary to switch jobs , but an employer 's attitude toward mandatory overtime is a pretty huge issue for me .
On the plus side , you 're reaching a threshold of experience which will make it much easier to switch jobs if needed .
Believe it or not , there are a few companies out there who do n't believe your weekends and evenings automatically belong to the company .
It takes a while to ferret them out , though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The videogame industry is pretty notorious for this, and with fairly good reason.
Unfortunately, with unemployment rising and the economy faltering, companies feel a bit more free to demand mandatory overtime from game devs.
There is also much less resistance to overtime from young, single programmers with no real family commitments.
Most people in the game industry love what they do, so for some, it's not a horrible hardship to work longer hours.Honestly, I'd start planning an exit strategy.
It's always a bit scary to switch jobs, but an employer's attitude toward mandatory overtime is a pretty huge issue for me.
On the plus side, you're reaching a threshold of experience which will make it much easier to switch jobs if needed.
Believe it or not, there are a few companies out there who don't believe your weekends and evenings automatically belong to the company.
It takes a while to ferret them out, though.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505680</id>
	<title>My opinion and experience</title>
	<author>meerling</author>
	<datestamp>1261339380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If the boss is the type that wants to micromanage stuff they don't even understand, get them as far away as possible, they only cause problems.<br><br>On the other hand, if they let the experts do what they are payed for and stay out of the way, it's a great thing.<br>Here's some reasons why:<br><br>Since the boss has to stay late, they aren't as likely to tell the underlings to stay late unless there's at least a half decent reason.<br>(The ones that don't stay, tend to get an attitude of fire &amp; forget, ie you stay at work till it's done or I'll fire you, and I'll happily forget how crappy I'm treating you... Or at least that's how the underlings will feel about it.)<br><br>Also, the boss can get the pizza, or chinese, or whatever food you order that night. Don't want to mess things up if you're in a groove.<br><br>And here's a biggie, management is there in case something goes wrong.  If the power goes out, a fire alarm goes off, somebody breaks in, whatever, if it's just the underlings, the shit's gonna hit the fan and guess who gets it in the face. On the other hand, if a manager type is there, those higher up are far more likely to listen to his side than that of the underlings. It's not that a manager can prevent the shitstorm, but he can lessen it and redirect most of it where it needs to go. (Even if where it needs to go is next door where their busted sprinkler system dropped the water pressure and automatically set off your fire alarms because of a water pressure sensor... Yes, I've been in that one.)</htmltext>
<tokenext>If the boss is the type that wants to micromanage stuff they do n't even understand , get them as far away as possible , they only cause problems.On the other hand , if they let the experts do what they are payed for and stay out of the way , it 's a great thing.Here 's some reasons why : Since the boss has to stay late , they are n't as likely to tell the underlings to stay late unless there 's at least a half decent reason .
( The ones that do n't stay , tend to get an attitude of fire &amp; forget , ie you stay at work till it 's done or I 'll fire you , and I 'll happily forget how crappy I 'm treating you... Or at least that 's how the underlings will feel about it .
) Also , the boss can get the pizza , or chinese , or whatever food you order that night .
Do n't want to mess things up if you 're in a groove.And here 's a biggie , management is there in case something goes wrong .
If the power goes out , a fire alarm goes off , somebody breaks in , whatever , if it 's just the underlings , the shit 's gon na hit the fan and guess who gets it in the face .
On the other hand , if a manager type is there , those higher up are far more likely to listen to his side than that of the underlings .
It 's not that a manager can prevent the shitstorm , but he can lessen it and redirect most of it where it needs to go .
( Even if where it needs to go is next door where their busted sprinkler system dropped the water pressure and automatically set off your fire alarms because of a water pressure sensor... Yes , I 've been in that one .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the boss is the type that wants to micromanage stuff they don't even understand, get them as far away as possible, they only cause problems.On the other hand, if they let the experts do what they are payed for and stay out of the way, it's a great thing.Here's some reasons why:Since the boss has to stay late, they aren't as likely to tell the underlings to stay late unless there's at least a half decent reason.
(The ones that don't stay, tend to get an attitude of fire &amp; forget, ie you stay at work till it's done or I'll fire you, and I'll happily forget how crappy I'm treating you... Or at least that's how the underlings will feel about it.
)Also, the boss can get the pizza, or chinese, or whatever food you order that night.
Don't want to mess things up if you're in a groove.And here's a biggie, management is there in case something goes wrong.
If the power goes out, a fire alarm goes off, somebody breaks in, whatever, if it's just the underlings, the shit's gonna hit the fan and guess who gets it in the face.
On the other hand, if a manager type is there, those higher up are far more likely to listen to his side than that of the underlings.
It's not that a manager can prevent the shitstorm, but he can lessen it and redirect most of it where it needs to go.
(Even if where it needs to go is next door where their busted sprinkler system dropped the water pressure and automatically set off your fire alarms because of a water pressure sensor... Yes, I've been in that one.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506266</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>david in brasil</author>
	<datestamp>1261300560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I always told the team "I'll be in my office if I can help you in any way", and then went back to my office and watch some porn.</p><p>That's just the way I roll...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I always told the team " I 'll be in my office if I can help you in any way " , and then went back to my office and watch some porn.That 's just the way I roll.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I always told the team "I'll be in my office if I can help you in any way", and then went back to my office and watch some porn.That's just the way I roll...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505744</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506924</id>
	<title>I've done both</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261306680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm a "development team lead" which, as you all no doubt know, translates to "a working developer who also had manager duties, but gets no more pay for those manager duties."</p><p>So I'm very technical, i know how most of the system works, I really can be of help.</p><p>But I don't know how, for example, to do the full two-day build. (Yes, two days. The end product is a disk that installs everything, including Windows, on a naked box.)</p><p>So I'm always torn when the guy who does most of the builds is stuck there late. Do I leave, or do I stay?</p><p>Sometimes I stay, but I do MY work, and leave him the heck alone, because he can see me from his desk, so if he needs me, he can just call my name out.</p><p>And sometimes I go, but I always ask if he needs anything, and I always ask if he wants me to stay.</p><p>One time, I stayed and sent him home, because he was to a point where I knew how to finish, and he looked like he was going to pass out.</p><p>I have no idea what the right answer is.I don't think there really is one.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a " development team lead " which , as you all no doubt know , translates to " a working developer who also had manager duties , but gets no more pay for those manager duties .
" So I 'm very technical , i know how most of the system works , I really can be of help.But I do n't know how , for example , to do the full two-day build .
( Yes , two days .
The end product is a disk that installs everything , including Windows , on a naked box .
) So I 'm always torn when the guy who does most of the builds is stuck there late .
Do I leave , or do I stay ? Sometimes I stay , but I do MY work , and leave him the heck alone , because he can see me from his desk , so if he needs me , he can just call my name out.And sometimes I go , but I always ask if he needs anything , and I always ask if he wants me to stay.One time , I stayed and sent him home , because he was to a point where I knew how to finish , and he looked like he was going to pass out.I have no idea what the right answer is.I do n't think there really is one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a "development team lead" which, as you all no doubt know, translates to "a working developer who also had manager duties, but gets no more pay for those manager duties.
"So I'm very technical, i know how most of the system works, I really can be of help.But I don't know how, for example, to do the full two-day build.
(Yes, two days.
The end product is a disk that installs everything, including Windows, on a naked box.
)So I'm always torn when the guy who does most of the builds is stuck there late.
Do I leave, or do I stay?Sometimes I stay, but I do MY work, and leave him the heck alone, because he can see me from his desk, so if he needs me, he can just call my name out.And sometimes I go, but I always ask if he needs anything, and I always ask if he wants me to stay.One time, I stayed and sent him home, because he was to a point where I knew how to finish, and he looked like he was going to pass out.I have no idea what the right answer is.I don't think there really is one.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30510960</id>
	<title>Why should the manger stay?</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1261402140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have read several comments, and it seems Slashdoters in the US are very fond of this practice of working for free.</p><p>Not only that, but they seem to believe that working for free is so much better if you force your boss to partake in the misery. Most endearingly bosses seem to believe that being miserable with your people for doing work, that you should not be doing in the first place, will enhance morale, in the same way the morale of the Titanic's crew was enhanced by the valiant captain staying to drown in the ill fated ship.</p><p>Another interesting tidbit that has emerged in the thread is several star-stripped Slashdoters  referring to experiences in their Armed Forces as a good example to follow when dealing with a corporate civilian environment.</p><p>In the immortal words of my dad, a fearless Presidential Guard if you must know, "the military teaches you shit about real life because the military is not real life, unless you think your wife is General $YOUR\_FAVOURITE\_GENERAL"</p><p>So no, the manager should not stay, because arguably a good manager has planned unsocial hours work and you knew that and will be compensated properly.</p><p>Also in a properly run company, you will know the roles and responsibilities of most people, your manager included, and even if you don't, you should work under the assumption that every person is responsible and allocate their time in a matter that better serves the company's aims, as you surely do as well.</p><p>So if a manager leaves while you are working, perhaps it is because he has to be early next day, is taking lots of work home, or is going to watch a shitty movie like Avatar 3D, but since this is none of your business I fail to see why you should care at all instead of getting your work done.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have read several comments , and it seems Slashdoters in the US are very fond of this practice of working for free.Not only that , but they seem to believe that working for free is so much better if you force your boss to partake in the misery .
Most endearingly bosses seem to believe that being miserable with your people for doing work , that you should not be doing in the first place , will enhance morale , in the same way the morale of the Titanic 's crew was enhanced by the valiant captain staying to drown in the ill fated ship.Another interesting tidbit that has emerged in the thread is several star-stripped Slashdoters referring to experiences in their Armed Forces as a good example to follow when dealing with a corporate civilian environment.In the immortal words of my dad , a fearless Presidential Guard if you must know , " the military teaches you shit about real life because the military is not real life , unless you think your wife is General $ YOUR \ _FAVOURITE \ _GENERAL " So no , the manager should not stay , because arguably a good manager has planned unsocial hours work and you knew that and will be compensated properly.Also in a properly run company , you will know the roles and responsibilities of most people , your manager included , and even if you do n't , you should work under the assumption that every person is responsible and allocate their time in a matter that better serves the company 's aims , as you surely do as well.So if a manager leaves while you are working , perhaps it is because he has to be early next day , is taking lots of work home , or is going to watch a shitty movie like Avatar 3D , but since this is none of your business I fail to see why you should care at all instead of getting your work done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have read several comments, and it seems Slashdoters in the US are very fond of this practice of working for free.Not only that, but they seem to believe that working for free is so much better if you force your boss to partake in the misery.
Most endearingly bosses seem to believe that being miserable with your people for doing work, that you should not be doing in the first place, will enhance morale, in the same way the morale of the Titanic's crew was enhanced by the valiant captain staying to drown in the ill fated ship.Another interesting tidbit that has emerged in the thread is several star-stripped Slashdoters  referring to experiences in their Armed Forces as a good example to follow when dealing with a corporate civilian environment.In the immortal words of my dad, a fearless Presidential Guard if you must know, "the military teaches you shit about real life because the military is not real life, unless you think your wife is General $YOUR\_FAVOURITE\_GENERAL"So no, the manager should not stay, because arguably a good manager has planned unsocial hours work and you knew that and will be compensated properly.Also in a properly run company, you will know the roles and responsibilities of most people, your manager included, and even if you don't, you should work under the assumption that every person is responsible and allocate their time in a matter that better serves the company's aims, as you surely do as well.So if a manager leaves while you are working, perhaps it is because he has to be early next day, is taking lots of work home, or is going to watch a shitty movie like Avatar 3D, but since this is none of your business I fail to see why you should care at all instead of getting your work done.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506604</id>
	<title>Say NOOOOoooo</title>
	<author>mightyhe</author>
	<datestamp>1261303740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You have to understand, when changes are allowed five minutes from or after the deadline, then by definition it is impossible to be on time, no matter how great a job you've done as programmer.  I don't stay late, and I don't do overtime.  Period.  As a result, I'm always on time (of course, I do get my part done on time).  Is that counter intuitive?  If you've been in the trenches, you probably understand, the problem is not technical, it's social.  As such, all it requires is a little backbone on your part to solve it.</p><p>* Do yourself a favor, say no and hold onto your dignity.  Any programmer who won't stand up for themselves is just asking to be a punching bag, and those sort of relationships turn the manager into something worse.<br>* It's just last minute nerves, they'll get over it.  The change wasn't important anyway.  No, it really wasn't.<br>* You won't get in trouble for not "taking one for the team".  Deep down, the guy asking for the change knows the reason for being late is his fault.  If it was a genuine problem, he was either unprepared or didn't think things through thoroughly.  Anyone looking into it will see that it's his fault, and after all, it's his butt on the line.  At this point, cognitive dissonance will kick in, and they'll either decide the problem wasn't so bad, or it's OK to be a little late.<br>* You won't get rewarded for "taking one for the team".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You have to understand , when changes are allowed five minutes from or after the deadline , then by definition it is impossible to be on time , no matter how great a job you 've done as programmer .
I do n't stay late , and I do n't do overtime .
Period. As a result , I 'm always on time ( of course , I do get my part done on time ) .
Is that counter intuitive ?
If you 've been in the trenches , you probably understand , the problem is not technical , it 's social .
As such , all it requires is a little backbone on your part to solve it .
* Do yourself a favor , say no and hold onto your dignity .
Any programmer who wo n't stand up for themselves is just asking to be a punching bag , and those sort of relationships turn the manager into something worse .
* It 's just last minute nerves , they 'll get over it .
The change was n't important anyway .
No , it really was n't .
* You wo n't get in trouble for not " taking one for the team " .
Deep down , the guy asking for the change knows the reason for being late is his fault .
If it was a genuine problem , he was either unprepared or did n't think things through thoroughly .
Anyone looking into it will see that it 's his fault , and after all , it 's his butt on the line .
At this point , cognitive dissonance will kick in , and they 'll either decide the problem was n't so bad , or it 's OK to be a little late .
* You wo n't get rewarded for " taking one for the team " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You have to understand, when changes are allowed five minutes from or after the deadline, then by definition it is impossible to be on time, no matter how great a job you've done as programmer.
I don't stay late, and I don't do overtime.
Period.  As a result, I'm always on time (of course, I do get my part done on time).
Is that counter intuitive?
If you've been in the trenches, you probably understand, the problem is not technical, it's social.
As such, all it requires is a little backbone on your part to solve it.
* Do yourself a favor, say no and hold onto your dignity.
Any programmer who won't stand up for themselves is just asking to be a punching bag, and those sort of relationships turn the manager into something worse.
* It's just last minute nerves, they'll get over it.
The change wasn't important anyway.
No, it really wasn't.
* You won't get in trouble for not "taking one for the team".
Deep down, the guy asking for the change knows the reason for being late is his fault.
If it was a genuine problem, he was either unprepared or didn't think things through thoroughly.
Anyone looking into it will see that it's his fault, and after all, it's his butt on the line.
At this point, cognitive dissonance will kick in, and they'll either decide the problem wasn't so bad, or it's OK to be a little late.
* You won't get rewarded for "taking one for the team".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505828</id>
	<title>idk..</title>
	<author>fade</author>
	<datestamp>1261340580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been in the situation where a manager in a crunch period really slowed the whole thing down because they were demanding explanations of every check-in. I've also had the experience of having a technical manager save the team no end of hassle by running interference and buffering us from the political realities even higher up the chain in crunch periods; in those cases the manager was technical enough to just let us get on with it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been in the situation where a manager in a crunch period really slowed the whole thing down because they were demanding explanations of every check-in .
I 've also had the experience of having a technical manager save the team no end of hassle by running interference and buffering us from the political realities even higher up the chain in crunch periods ; in those cases the manager was technical enough to just let us get on with it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been in the situation where a manager in a crunch period really slowed the whole thing down because they were demanding explanations of every check-in.
I've also had the experience of having a technical manager save the team no end of hassle by running interference and buffering us from the political realities even higher up the chain in crunch periods; in those cases the manager was technical enough to just let us get on with it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506968</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>aix tom</author>
	<datestamp>1261306980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Second that.</p><p>In my opinion, there is not really a need for the manager to stay, unless he has to physically scare away people trying to harass the developers. Just ask them if they need anything further before you leave, and tell them they can call any time they need anything.</p><p>At least that's the way it is with my manager. The poor guy hast to stay later than me on enough occasions, no need for him to hover around me when I need to work late.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Second that.In my opinion , there is not really a need for the manager to stay , unless he has to physically scare away people trying to harass the developers .
Just ask them if they need anything further before you leave , and tell them they can call any time they need anything.At least that 's the way it is with my manager .
The poor guy hast to stay later than me on enough occasions , no need for him to hover around me when I need to work late .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Second that.In my opinion, there is not really a need for the manager to stay, unless he has to physically scare away people trying to harass the developers.
Just ask them if they need anything further before you leave, and tell them they can call any time they need anything.At least that's the way it is with my manager.
The poor guy hast to stay later than me on enough occasions, no need for him to hover around me when I need to work late.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505744</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30510008</id>
	<title>It depends on what your manager does</title>
	<author>herwin</author>
	<datestamp>1261388340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the manager's first job is to facilitate the work of her programmers, then, yes, she should stay if it makes a contribution.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the manager 's first job is to facilitate the work of her programmers , then , yes , she should stay if it makes a contribution .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the manager's first job is to facilitate the work of her programmers, then, yes, she should stay if it makes a contribution.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507588</id>
	<title>Support Networks</title>
	<author>stimpleton</author>
	<datestamp>1261312620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>For several years at performance reviews, I have tacked on the request "it would be great if the employer really worked on improving staff support networks, which would in turn leave people like me free to do what we are paid to do, and do it in a more timely manner.<br> <br>I may as well of said nothing.
<br> <br>A couple months back a person resigned from another biz and she was talented but also an absolute stunner(drop dead gorgeous) and my manager wanted her in our organisation. <br> <br> Her reply was a short but polite "No thanks, I really am looking for a place with strong support networks.". It was a real blow to him, and a wake up call. Now our managers "support", not "oversee". It has worked well, and we seldom pull late shifts now, as the jobs done.</htmltext>
<tokenext>For several years at performance reviews , I have tacked on the request " it would be great if the employer really worked on improving staff support networks , which would in turn leave people like me free to do what we are paid to do , and do it in a more timely manner .
I may as well of said nothing .
A couple months back a person resigned from another biz and she was talented but also an absolute stunner ( drop dead gorgeous ) and my manager wanted her in our organisation .
Her reply was a short but polite " No thanks , I really am looking for a place with strong support networks. " .
It was a real blow to him , and a wake up call .
Now our managers " support " , not " oversee " .
It has worked well , and we seldom pull late shifts now , as the jobs done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For several years at performance reviews, I have tacked on the request "it would be great if the employer really worked on improving staff support networks, which would in turn leave people like me free to do what we are paid to do, and do it in a more timely manner.
I may as well of said nothing.
A couple months back a person resigned from another biz and she was talented but also an absolute stunner(drop dead gorgeous) and my manager wanted her in our organisation.
Her reply was a short but polite "No thanks, I really am looking for a place with strong support networks.".
It was a real blow to him, and a wake up call.
Now our managers "support", not "oversee".
It has worked well, and we seldom pull late shifts now, as the jobs done.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506006</id>
	<title>Re:A good manager...</title>
	<author>Dastardly</author>
	<datestamp>1261341720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I aprefer.</p><p>Cost, Scope, Schedule.</p><p>Two can be fixed, one must be flexible.  Cost is cost per unit time i.e. fixed number of people.</p><p>What is typical is management tries to pretend all three can be fixed.  Which causes overtime and since many devs don't get paid for overtime means cost can pretend to be fixed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I aprefer.Cost , Scope , Schedule.Two can be fixed , one must be flexible .
Cost is cost per unit time i.e .
fixed number of people.What is typical is management tries to pretend all three can be fixed .
Which causes overtime and since many devs do n't get paid for overtime means cost can pretend to be fixed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I aprefer.Cost, Scope, Schedule.Two can be fixed, one must be flexible.
Cost is cost per unit time i.e.
fixed number of people.What is typical is management tries to pretend all three can be fixed.
Which causes overtime and since many devs don't get paid for overtime means cost can pretend to be fixed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505750</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506468</id>
	<title>Yes.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261302420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Good managers should be the first to arrive at work and the last to leave.</p><p>Bad managers should just never be there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Good managers should be the first to arrive at work and the last to leave.Bad managers should just never be there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good managers should be the first to arrive at work and the last to leave.Bad managers should just never be there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507650</id>
	<title>Methodology Problems</title>
	<author>eulernet</author>
	<datestamp>1261313340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In my opinion, the manager must tell the developers to return to their home, and take a good night sleep.</p><p>A few years ago (when I worked as a game programmer), it was common to do some all-nighters, since everybody was doing it.<br>There were some problems, though:<br>
&nbsp; - the code tends to be crappier, since we are tired<br>
&nbsp; - jetlag: if you are alone, this is not a problem, but it's difficult to live as a couple<br>
&nbsp; - burnout: you'll pay your night of work<br>
&nbsp; - you can be very productive the first night, but not for an extended period</p><p>Also, when the project finishes, all the tensions disappears, and everybody is completely demotivated, resulting in their resignation in 30\% of the cases.</p><p>It's not reasonable to work like a crazy when you approach the deadline.</p><p>Now, I much prefer the agile approach:<br>
&nbsp; <b>instead of trying to put all you want in the product, just try to put what can fit within the given amount of time.</b></p><p>There are some interesting techniques that you may apply:<br>
&nbsp; - YAGNI: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You\_ain't\_gonna\_need\_it" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You\_ain't\_gonna\_need\_it</a> [wikipedia.org]  instead of implementing a ton of things, implement the simplest set of what is needed<br>
&nbsp; - BDD: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior\_Driven\_Development" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior\_Driven\_Development</a> [wikipedia.org] instead of coding without a goal (except to finish the product), ask your manager to write executable specifications. This includes also to concentrate on finishing the features one after another (and not keeping them half-finished, due to lack of time).</p><p>And the most important thing:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <b>if you cannot add a feature in your program, because you lack of time, DON'T ADD IT !</b></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In my opinion , the manager must tell the developers to return to their home , and take a good night sleep.A few years ago ( when I worked as a game programmer ) , it was common to do some all-nighters , since everybody was doing it.There were some problems , though :   - the code tends to be crappier , since we are tired   - jetlag : if you are alone , this is not a problem , but it 's difficult to live as a couple   - burnout : you 'll pay your night of work   - you can be very productive the first night , but not for an extended periodAlso , when the project finishes , all the tensions disappears , and everybody is completely demotivated , resulting in their resignation in 30 \ % of the cases.It 's not reasonable to work like a crazy when you approach the deadline.Now , I much prefer the agile approach :   instead of trying to put all you want in the product , just try to put what can fit within the given amount of time.There are some interesting techniques that you may apply :   - YAGNI : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You \ _ai n't \ _gonna \ _need \ _it [ wikipedia.org ] instead of implementing a ton of things , implement the simplest set of what is needed   - BDD : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior \ _Driven \ _Development [ wikipedia.org ] instead of coding without a goal ( except to finish the product ) , ask your manager to write executable specifications .
This includes also to concentrate on finishing the features one after another ( and not keeping them half-finished , due to lack of time ) .And the most important thing :     if you can not add a feature in your program , because you lack of time , DO N'T ADD IT !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my opinion, the manager must tell the developers to return to their home, and take a good night sleep.A few years ago (when I worked as a game programmer), it was common to do some all-nighters, since everybody was doing it.There were some problems, though:
  - the code tends to be crappier, since we are tired
  - jetlag: if you are alone, this is not a problem, but it's difficult to live as a couple
  - burnout: you'll pay your night of work
  - you can be very productive the first night, but not for an extended periodAlso, when the project finishes, all the tensions disappears, and everybody is completely demotivated, resulting in their resignation in 30\% of the cases.It's not reasonable to work like a crazy when you approach the deadline.Now, I much prefer the agile approach:
  instead of trying to put all you want in the product, just try to put what can fit within the given amount of time.There are some interesting techniques that you may apply:
  - YAGNI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You\_ain't\_gonna\_need\_it [wikipedia.org]  instead of implementing a ton of things, implement the simplest set of what is needed
  - BDD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior\_Driven\_Development [wikipedia.org] instead of coding without a goal (except to finish the product), ask your manager to write executable specifications.
This includes also to concentrate on finishing the features one after another (and not keeping them half-finished, due to lack of time).And the most important thing:
    if you cannot add a feature in your program, because you lack of time, DON'T ADD IT !</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30510564</id>
	<title>Lol</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261396800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Shared hardship creates intimacy"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-P</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Shared hardship creates intimacy " ; -P</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Shared hardship creates intimacy" ;-P</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506072</id>
	<title>Middle managers have little power over deadlines</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261342260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>If it's the manager's fault, and it always is unless we're talking about developers who work night shifts</i></p><p>You can delude yourself into thinking a middle manager has the power to dictate deadlines if you like but in a lot of organisations that simply isn't true. The deadline is decided by those higher up based on external pressures and the desires and will of upper management. The middle manager has to try to make it work. Often it is expected by upper management that developers will stay back late to do it. The resulting timeline is a fiction and everyone's butt is on the line. If it doesn't work, there's always an outsourcing firm willing to lie about being able to deliver more quickly and efficiently (as if that were in their best interests).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If it 's the manager 's fault , and it always is unless we 're talking about developers who work night shiftsYou can delude yourself into thinking a middle manager has the power to dictate deadlines if you like but in a lot of organisations that simply is n't true .
The deadline is decided by those higher up based on external pressures and the desires and will of upper management .
The middle manager has to try to make it work .
Often it is expected by upper management that developers will stay back late to do it .
The resulting timeline is a fiction and everyone 's butt is on the line .
If it does n't work , there 's always an outsourcing firm willing to lie about being able to deliver more quickly and efficiently ( as if that were in their best interests ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If it's the manager's fault, and it always is unless we're talking about developers who work night shiftsYou can delude yourself into thinking a middle manager has the power to dictate deadlines if you like but in a lot of organisations that simply isn't true.
The deadline is decided by those higher up based on external pressures and the desires and will of upper management.
The middle manager has to try to make it work.
Often it is expected by upper management that developers will stay back late to do it.
The resulting timeline is a fiction and everyone's butt is on the line.
If it doesn't work, there's always an outsourcing firm willing to lie about being able to deliver more quickly and efficiently (as if that were in their best interests).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505632</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505972</id>
	<title>My manager stays, and I appreciate it.</title>
	<author>HarryRanquist</author>
	<datestamp>1261341480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I must have been lucky. My manager stays with developers working late out of loyalty. He tries to keep out of work's way, and when he is most bored or if it gets rediculously late he will even go and get snacks. I appreciated his presence everytime we had to do that, and when I get into his position I hope I will remember to the right thing.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I must have been lucky .
My manager stays with developers working late out of loyalty .
He tries to keep out of work 's way , and when he is most bored or if it gets rediculously late he will even go and get snacks .
I appreciated his presence everytime we had to do that , and when I get into his position I hope I will remember to the right thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I must have been lucky.
My manager stays with developers working late out of loyalty.
He tries to keep out of work's way, and when he is most bored or if it gets rediculously late he will even go and get snacks.
I appreciated his presence everytime we had to do that, and when I get into his position I hope I will remember to the right thing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30512494</id>
	<title>At the same time...</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1261413360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is also the same as when they ask a developer to stay and work overtime and work through supposed vacation time (gov. declared vacations) to catch up on a project falling behind, is it fair that the team lead not work as well to catch up on what they can do for the project?</p><p>If the team lead is responsible for the oversee of the project is needs to be present during most of the man hours put in for decision making, should he not also be available when he asks his employees to work those extra hours, seems only fair.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is also the same as when they ask a developer to stay and work overtime and work through supposed vacation time ( gov .
declared vacations ) to catch up on a project falling behind , is it fair that the team lead not work as well to catch up on what they can do for the project ? If the team lead is responsible for the oversee of the project is needs to be present during most of the man hours put in for decision making , should he not also be available when he asks his employees to work those extra hours , seems only fair .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is also the same as when they ask a developer to stay and work overtime and work through supposed vacation time (gov.
declared vacations) to catch up on a project falling behind, is it fair that the team lead not work as well to catch up on what they can do for the project?If the team lead is responsible for the oversee of the project is needs to be present during most of the man hours put in for decision making, should he not also be available when he asks his employees to work those extra hours, seems only fair.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30509686</id>
	<title>Re:Management pager, baby</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261426080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's exactly what I do with my team. If somebody has to work late, or work on an escalated problem, I make myself available all hours but remotely. I will have a VPN-ready laptop on me, they'll have my cell# and my IM. Works well for all involved.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's exactly what I do with my team .
If somebody has to work late , or work on an escalated problem , I make myself available all hours but remotely .
I will have a VPN-ready laptop on me , they 'll have my cell # and my IM .
Works well for all involved .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's exactly what I do with my team.
If somebody has to work late, or work on an escalated problem, I make myself available all hours but remotely.
I will have a VPN-ready laptop on me, they'll have my cell# and my IM.
Works well for all involved.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505700</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30517366</id>
	<title>You Fail</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261392780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If your developers are staying late, you already failed as a manager.  Stay if you want, but don't bother them any more than you already have.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If your developers are staying late , you already failed as a manager .
Stay if you want , but do n't bother them any more than you already have .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If your developers are staying late, you already failed as a manager.
Stay if you want, but don't bother them any more than you already have.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506478</id>
	<title>Staying late means poor project management</title>
	<author>harmonise</author>
	<datestamp>1261302540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Staying late means poor project management. Time to find a new project manager.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Staying late means poor project management .
Time to find a new project manager .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Staying late means poor project management.
Time to find a new project manager.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505744</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>DreamsAreOkToo</author>
	<datestamp>1261339860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Let me second this. Managers should add to the efficiency of a team.  Make it clear that you're staying to support them, not harass them. Stay out of sight, but make it clear that they can call on you for communication with the rest of the team, as well as keeping people refreshed. Something that may be effective is for them to reason through a problem with you. You may not be able to code in their language, but often times, if they talk through the problem with you, they themselves will have an epiphany. If they're staying late, they're obviously already dedicated to seeing the task through to completion, there's no need to ride them.</p><p>And while you're sitting there, unable to help, I'd pick up a book on the programming language they're using to code.  Even if you never put your fingers to the keyboard, it will gain you credibility, which will make you, as a manager, a thousand times more effective.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Let me second this .
Managers should add to the efficiency of a team .
Make it clear that you 're staying to support them , not harass them .
Stay out of sight , but make it clear that they can call on you for communication with the rest of the team , as well as keeping people refreshed .
Something that may be effective is for them to reason through a problem with you .
You may not be able to code in their language , but often times , if they talk through the problem with you , they themselves will have an epiphany .
If they 're staying late , they 're obviously already dedicated to seeing the task through to completion , there 's no need to ride them.And while you 're sitting there , unable to help , I 'd pick up a book on the programming language they 're using to code .
Even if you never put your fingers to the keyboard , it will gain you credibility , which will make you , as a manager , a thousand times more effective .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let me second this.
Managers should add to the efficiency of a team.
Make it clear that you're staying to support them, not harass them.
Stay out of sight, but make it clear that they can call on you for communication with the rest of the team, as well as keeping people refreshed.
Something that may be effective is for them to reason through a problem with you.
You may not be able to code in their language, but often times, if they talk through the problem with you, they themselves will have an epiphany.
If they're staying late, they're obviously already dedicated to seeing the task through to completion, there's no need to ride them.And while you're sitting there, unable to help, I'd pick up a book on the programming language they're using to code.
Even if you never put your fingers to the keyboard, it will gain you credibility, which will make you, as a manager, a thousand times more effective.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506200</id>
	<title>Re:Real Time Coding</title>
	<author>Dun Malg</author>
	<datestamp>1261300080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>My favorite was when my manager would ask "on a scale of 0-100\%, where are we on (x)?" One of my coworkers working on the installation scripting got fed up with it and answered:<br> <br>
"It's at 0\% because it doesn't fucking work. It will remain at 0\% until I work all the bugs out of it. When I get that last bug fixed, it'll magically jump to 100\%. Let me be so I can finish it!"</htmltext>
<tokenext>My favorite was when my manager would ask " on a scale of 0-100 \ % , where are we on ( x ) ?
" One of my coworkers working on the installation scripting got fed up with it and answered : " It 's at 0 \ % because it does n't fucking work .
It will remain at 0 \ % until I work all the bugs out of it .
When I get that last bug fixed , it 'll magically jump to 100 \ % .
Let me be so I can finish it !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My favorite was when my manager would ask "on a scale of 0-100\%, where are we on (x)?
" One of my coworkers working on the installation scripting got fed up with it and answered: 
"It's at 0\% because it doesn't fucking work.
It will remain at 0\% until I work all the bugs out of it.
When I get that last bug fixed, it'll magically jump to 100\%.
Let me be so I can finish it!
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505588</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507472</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261311300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is 100\% acurate. If your a good manager you are helping your team to do the best work posible by being there for \_them\_. Your just one part of the team and taking credit for the teams success doesn't inspire your team to keep working hard for you. The more you enable your team, the more you make their life easier, the harder they will work \_with\_ you, to achieve the teams goals.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is 100 \ % acurate .
If your a good manager you are helping your team to do the best work posible by being there for \ _them \ _ .
Your just one part of the team and taking credit for the teams success does n't inspire your team to keep working hard for you .
The more you enable your team , the more you make their life easier , the harder they will work \ _with \ _ you , to achieve the teams goals .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is 100\% acurate.
If your a good manager you are helping your team to do the best work posible by being there for \_them\_.
Your just one part of the team and taking credit for the teams success doesn't inspire your team to keep working hard for you.
The more you enable your team, the more you make their life easier, the harder they will work \_with\_ you, to achieve the teams goals.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505878</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505768</id>
	<title>Ideally, they should stay.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261339980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Where can I get a job in which I'm considered the most useful when not working, yet still get paid?!</p><p>If someone is considered more useful not working, they've immediately lost value. The three correct answers are: Yes, they should stay because they're good. No, but they get paid proportional to their utility. No, because I'm firing them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Where can I get a job in which I 'm considered the most useful when not working , yet still get paid ?
! If someone is considered more useful not working , they 've immediately lost value .
The three correct answers are : Yes , they should stay because they 're good .
No , but they get paid proportional to their utility .
No , because I 'm firing them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where can I get a job in which I'm considered the most useful when not working, yet still get paid?
!If someone is considered more useful not working, they've immediately lost value.
The three correct answers are: Yes, they should stay because they're good.
No, but they get paid proportional to their utility.
No, because I'm firing them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506886</id>
	<title>Different Experience</title>
	<author>turgid</author>
	<datestamp>1261306380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My PHB is just that - she started out in Admin. and worked her way up to managing a team of software developers. She hasn't a clue about software development. Not quite, "I think that mauve has the most RAM" but not far off.
</p><p>A few weeks ago she put a great deal of pressure (stupid deadline) of one of our senior developers. I got diverted from my task do doing a code review and running my new automated regression test suite to help him meet his deadline. Our other senior developer dropped his task and helped out with some testing too. (I'm not senior, just one of the regular guys).
</p><p>Our PHB left at about 19:00 as usual and two of us we left. The code review took 4 to 5 hours. As usual the PHB had no idea that this was 2500 lines of code touching many modules in C and C++. This is embedded real time stuff that runs on two platforms.
</p><p>We actually got finished at 19:30. The poor guy was under such pressure to get his stuff delivered (i.e. to cut all possible corners) that he broke the unit tests in the nightly build.
</p><p>A week later, we were pleasantly surprised when we all received an official letter from our PHB cc'd to more senior PHBs about what a great job we'd done! They all emailed us personally to thank us.
</p><p>Anyway, the poor guy got humiliated by the PHB in front of everyone for breaking the build and a couple of weeks later I got the telling off of my life from our dear PHB for wasting time! "Your time is not your own! Your time is not your own while you're here! There are people who pay us..." This lasted half an our!
</p><p>I'm not the one who spends 3 hours a day surfing the internet.
</p><p>My crime? Doing unit tests, refactoring my code and doing code reviews. Oh, and helping people for 10 minutes when they are stuck.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My PHB is just that - she started out in Admin .
and worked her way up to managing a team of software developers .
She has n't a clue about software development .
Not quite , " I think that mauve has the most RAM " but not far off .
A few weeks ago she put a great deal of pressure ( stupid deadline ) of one of our senior developers .
I got diverted from my task do doing a code review and running my new automated regression test suite to help him meet his deadline .
Our other senior developer dropped his task and helped out with some testing too .
( I 'm not senior , just one of the regular guys ) .
Our PHB left at about 19 : 00 as usual and two of us we left .
The code review took 4 to 5 hours .
As usual the PHB had no idea that this was 2500 lines of code touching many modules in C and C + + .
This is embedded real time stuff that runs on two platforms .
We actually got finished at 19 : 30 .
The poor guy was under such pressure to get his stuff delivered ( i.e .
to cut all possible corners ) that he broke the unit tests in the nightly build .
A week later , we were pleasantly surprised when we all received an official letter from our PHB cc 'd to more senior PHBs about what a great job we 'd done !
They all emailed us personally to thank us .
Anyway , the poor guy got humiliated by the PHB in front of everyone for breaking the build and a couple of weeks later I got the telling off of my life from our dear PHB for wasting time !
" Your time is not your own !
Your time is not your own while you 're here !
There are people who pay us... " This lasted half an our !
I 'm not the one who spends 3 hours a day surfing the internet .
My crime ?
Doing unit tests , refactoring my code and doing code reviews .
Oh , and helping people for 10 minutes when they are stuck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My PHB is just that - she started out in Admin.
and worked her way up to managing a team of software developers.
She hasn't a clue about software development.
Not quite, "I think that mauve has the most RAM" but not far off.
A few weeks ago she put a great deal of pressure (stupid deadline) of one of our senior developers.
I got diverted from my task do doing a code review and running my new automated regression test suite to help him meet his deadline.
Our other senior developer dropped his task and helped out with some testing too.
(I'm not senior, just one of the regular guys).
Our PHB left at about 19:00 as usual and two of us we left.
The code review took 4 to 5 hours.
As usual the PHB had no idea that this was 2500 lines of code touching many modules in C and C++.
This is embedded real time stuff that runs on two platforms.
We actually got finished at 19:30.
The poor guy was under such pressure to get his stuff delivered (i.e.
to cut all possible corners) that he broke the unit tests in the nightly build.
A week later, we were pleasantly surprised when we all received an official letter from our PHB cc'd to more senior PHBs about what a great job we'd done!
They all emailed us personally to thank us.
Anyway, the poor guy got humiliated by the PHB in front of everyone for breaking the build and a couple of weeks later I got the telling off of my life from our dear PHB for wasting time!
"Your time is not your own!
Your time is not your own while you're here!
There are people who pay us..." This lasted half an our!
I'm not the one who spends 3 hours a day surfing the internet.
My crime?
Doing unit tests, refactoring my code and doing code reviews.
Oh, and helping people for 10 minutes when they are stuck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505754</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261339860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree. As a an employee (sysadmin) I liked it when managers stayed with the crew when we had to work late. They  wouldn't hover over us. They would do their own work and basically be available in case anything was needed from them. It was kind of nice to know they were being inconvenienced (for lack of a better word) as much as everyone else, and by their own volition.</p><p>Now as a manager myself, in a new company, I have a crew (of developers and sysadmins) that is behind on their projects, partly because they haven't been managed very well and have actually been putting in less than 40 hours. I will be staying around with them when they need to work late for the reasons above and to make sure they actually stay when they are supposed to (I don't like having to do so for that last reason but it's one thing I have to do right now to keep the projects going as they need to be).</p><p>Hovering over the staff is a bad thing. Managers shouldn't do that. It hurts the situation more than it helps. If you can't trust your people enough to work properly without being babysat (there's a difference between being at the office with the crew and babysitting them), then it's possible you either have some sort of trust issues on your end or you need some different people on your crew.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree .
As a an employee ( sysadmin ) I liked it when managers stayed with the crew when we had to work late .
They would n't hover over us .
They would do their own work and basically be available in case anything was needed from them .
It was kind of nice to know they were being inconvenienced ( for lack of a better word ) as much as everyone else , and by their own volition.Now as a manager myself , in a new company , I have a crew ( of developers and sysadmins ) that is behind on their projects , partly because they have n't been managed very well and have actually been putting in less than 40 hours .
I will be staying around with them when they need to work late for the reasons above and to make sure they actually stay when they are supposed to ( I do n't like having to do so for that last reason but it 's one thing I have to do right now to keep the projects going as they need to be ) .Hovering over the staff is a bad thing .
Managers should n't do that .
It hurts the situation more than it helps .
If you ca n't trust your people enough to work properly without being babysat ( there 's a difference between being at the office with the crew and babysitting them ) , then it 's possible you either have some sort of trust issues on your end or you need some different people on your crew .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree.
As a an employee (sysadmin) I liked it when managers stayed with the crew when we had to work late.
They  wouldn't hover over us.
They would do their own work and basically be available in case anything was needed from them.
It was kind of nice to know they were being inconvenienced (for lack of a better word) as much as everyone else, and by their own volition.Now as a manager myself, in a new company, I have a crew (of developers and sysadmins) that is behind on their projects, partly because they haven't been managed very well and have actually been putting in less than 40 hours.
I will be staying around with them when they need to work late for the reasons above and to make sure they actually stay when they are supposed to (I don't like having to do so for that last reason but it's one thing I have to do right now to keep the projects going as they need to be).Hovering over the staff is a bad thing.
Managers shouldn't do that.
It hurts the situation more than it helps.
If you can't trust your people enough to work properly without being babysat (there's a difference between being at the office with the crew and babysitting them), then it's possible you either have some sort of trust issues on your end or you need some different people on your crew.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505662</id>
	<title>It depends</title>
	<author>istartedi</author>
	<datestamp>1261339200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It depends on the urgency of the situation,
the relationship with the employees, and the
style of the developer.</p><p>When there is some code that needs to be demo'd
the next day, and you may have to omit some features
or make some things less functional the boss MUST STAY
until it's fit for demo.  His input will be needed to
decide what's OK to leave out, what must be finished.</p><p>If it's less urgent, and the deadline is spread out over days
and the developers work better without interference, then the
boss can just check during regular hours.</p><p>It's a judgement call, just like anything else.
And yes, the manager should definitely buy pizza if he stays.
It's just common courtesy.  It also builds the team, and
aside from that I find that pizza is fantastic energy food
for late-night coding.</p><p>Oh, and ideally the manager should have figured out how
not to have it come down to late-night; but we don't live
in an ideal world.  The team that works into the night will
win, even if their code has bugs.  The 9-5 coders with no
bugs will be late to the market, late to the VCs who funded
the later-nighters project, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It depends on the urgency of the situation , the relationship with the employees , and the style of the developer.When there is some code that needs to be demo 'd the next day , and you may have to omit some features or make some things less functional the boss MUST STAY until it 's fit for demo .
His input will be needed to decide what 's OK to leave out , what must be finished.If it 's less urgent , and the deadline is spread out over days and the developers work better without interference , then the boss can just check during regular hours.It 's a judgement call , just like anything else .
And yes , the manager should definitely buy pizza if he stays .
It 's just common courtesy .
It also builds the team , and aside from that I find that pizza is fantastic energy food for late-night coding.Oh , and ideally the manager should have figured out how not to have it come down to late-night ; but we do n't live in an ideal world .
The team that works into the night will win , even if their code has bugs .
The 9-5 coders with no bugs will be late to the market , late to the VCs who funded the later-nighters project , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It depends on the urgency of the situation,
the relationship with the employees, and the
style of the developer.When there is some code that needs to be demo'd
the next day, and you may have to omit some features
or make some things less functional the boss MUST STAY
until it's fit for demo.
His input will be needed to
decide what's OK to leave out, what must be finished.If it's less urgent, and the deadline is spread out over days
and the developers work better without interference, then the
boss can just check during regular hours.It's a judgement call, just like anything else.
And yes, the manager should definitely buy pizza if he stays.
It's just common courtesy.
It also builds the team, and
aside from that I find that pizza is fantastic energy food
for late-night coding.Oh, and ideally the manager should have figured out how
not to have it come down to late-night; but we don't live
in an ideal world.
The team that works into the night will
win, even if their code has bugs.
The 9-5 coders with no
bugs will be late to the market, late to the VCs who funded
the later-nighters project, etc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30510740</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1261398900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In large companies, he's more often than not not responsible for it. Not even partly. He most likely sees that you're overworked and that hiring another person would solve it but he doesn't get it approved.</p><p>If he had the balls he'd simply say "go home and let the whole crap crash and burn". But what will happen? Does that mean you get a new coworker? No. You get a new manager. That's all.</p><p>You'd want to kill the messenger, instead you'd have to kill the one sending it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In large companies , he 's more often than not not responsible for it .
Not even partly .
He most likely sees that you 're overworked and that hiring another person would solve it but he does n't get it approved.If he had the balls he 'd simply say " go home and let the whole crap crash and burn " .
But what will happen ?
Does that mean you get a new coworker ?
No. You get a new manager .
That 's all.You 'd want to kill the messenger , instead you 'd have to kill the one sending it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In large companies, he's more often than not not responsible for it.
Not even partly.
He most likely sees that you're overworked and that hiring another person would solve it but he doesn't get it approved.If he had the balls he'd simply say "go home and let the whole crap crash and burn".
But what will happen?
Does that mean you get a new coworker?
No. You get a new manager.
That's all.You'd want to kill the messenger, instead you'd have to kill the one sending it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505778</id>
	<title>Problem here is the manager</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261340160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem here is the manager.  Their job is not to put pressure on you, their job is to organize and delegate.  What is this "looking over your shoulder" shit?  If that's what your manager is doing, leave that mickey mouse operation and go somewhere better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem here is the manager .
Their job is not to put pressure on you , their job is to organize and delegate .
What is this " looking over your shoulder " shit ?
If that 's what your manager is doing , leave that mickey mouse operation and go somewhere better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem here is the manager.
Their job is not to put pressure on you, their job is to organize and delegate.
What is this "looking over your shoulder" shit?
If that's what your manager is doing, leave that mickey mouse operation and go somewhere better.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30511752</id>
	<title>Re:Yes</title>
	<author>SunTzuWarmaster</author>
	<datestamp>1261409160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Pizza is being used an an example here because it is a food that many developers prefer, and steak is typically not a choice for a number of logistical reasons (they don't devlier, plates not stocked, steak knives not stocked, cold steak/potatoes from take out is terrible, etc.).</p><p>Typically your "late night development choices" are limitted to the following short list:<br>1 - pizza<br>2 - chinese</p><p>One of these items you have to ask for preference (interrupting developers!), while the other is a food that is generally liked (get a meat, veggie, and cheese and everyones dietary requirements should be settled).</p><p>By all means, I agree that pizza, soda, and coffee are bad for you.  However, having in a developer lab late at night, I can assure you that they are the foods of choice.  As a manager 'removing obstacles', don't you think you ought to provide for them what they wish and require?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Pizza is being used an an example here because it is a food that many developers prefer , and steak is typically not a choice for a number of logistical reasons ( they do n't devlier , plates not stocked , steak knives not stocked , cold steak/potatoes from take out is terrible , etc .
) .Typically your " late night development choices " are limitted to the following short list : 1 - pizza2 - chineseOne of these items you have to ask for preference ( interrupting developers !
) , while the other is a food that is generally liked ( get a meat , veggie , and cheese and everyones dietary requirements should be settled ) .By all means , I agree that pizza , soda , and coffee are bad for you .
However , having in a developer lab late at night , I can assure you that they are the foods of choice .
As a manager 'removing obstacles ' , do n't you think you ought to provide for them what they wish and require ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pizza is being used an an example here because it is a food that many developers prefer, and steak is typically not a choice for a number of logistical reasons (they don't devlier, plates not stocked, steak knives not stocked, cold steak/potatoes from take out is terrible, etc.
).Typically your "late night development choices" are limitted to the following short list:1 - pizza2 - chineseOne of these items you have to ask for preference (interrupting developers!
), while the other is a food that is generally liked (get a meat, veggie, and cheese and everyones dietary requirements should be settled).By all means, I agree that pizza, soda, and coffee are bad for you.
However, having in a developer lab late at night, I can assure you that they are the foods of choice.
As a manager 'removing obstacles', don't you think you ought to provide for them what they wish and require?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505878</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Ronin Developer</author>
	<datestamp>1261340880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is what I was taught as a naval officer.  If I asked my men to stay late because the regular duty section couldn't get it the work done, I stayed.  And, if it were left to the duty section and I wasn't on duty, my men always knew how to get in touch with me.</p><p>It isn't about helping them do the work (we're not necessarily the technical experts-although at times I was)- it's not about moral support - it's about making sure they have what they need to get the job done - and, when the work's done, it's about making sure they, not I, get the credit for a job well done.</p><p>As a manager today, I still think this is the way it should be done.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is what I was taught as a naval officer .
If I asked my men to stay late because the regular duty section could n't get it the work done , I stayed .
And , if it were left to the duty section and I was n't on duty , my men always knew how to get in touch with me.It is n't about helping them do the work ( we 're not necessarily the technical experts-although at times I was ) - it 's not about moral support - it 's about making sure they have what they need to get the job done - and , when the work 's done , it 's about making sure they , not I , get the credit for a job well done.As a manager today , I still think this is the way it should be done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is what I was taught as a naval officer.
If I asked my men to stay late because the regular duty section couldn't get it the work done, I stayed.
And, if it were left to the duty section and I wasn't on duty, my men always knew how to get in touch with me.It isn't about helping them do the work (we're not necessarily the technical experts-although at times I was)- it's not about moral support - it's about making sure they have what they need to get the job done - and, when the work's done, it's about making sure they, not I, get the credit for a job well done.As a manager today, I still think this is the way it should be done.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30511776</id>
	<title>Buy the pizza and go home</title>
	<author>dballance</author>
	<datestamp>1261409280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As a manager who is not qualified in the development language and tools my team uses I feel impotent. That should not translate to me being a busy-body and hovering over my team-members.

I think it's much more empowering to let my team know I trust them and respect their ability. Let your people know you have the utmost respect for their skills. They'll do everything possible to meet your expectations. They usually are much harder on themselves than you would ever be.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As a manager who is not qualified in the development language and tools my team uses I feel impotent .
That should not translate to me being a busy-body and hovering over my team-members .
I think it 's much more empowering to let my team know I trust them and respect their ability .
Let your people know you have the utmost respect for their skills .
They 'll do everything possible to meet your expectations .
They usually are much harder on themselves than you would ever be .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a manager who is not qualified in the development language and tools my team uses I feel impotent.
That should not translate to me being a busy-body and hovering over my team-members.
I think it's much more empowering to let my team know I trust them and respect their ability.
Let your people know you have the utmost respect for their skills.
They'll do everything possible to meet your expectations.
They usually are much harder on themselves than you would ever be.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506258</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>sfranklin</author>
	<datestamp>1261300500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>... being a manager and staying late with your developers, your first priority shouldn't be riding them but play a support role.</p></div><p>Absolutely. There's the very basic support, like ordering the food and making sure the cleaning people don't turn off all the lights, which is very useful. But more importantly, being available when something comes up that the developer needs help with. Question about requirements comes up? The manager can call the functional guy and ask. Problem with access? The manager can call up the sysadmins and get the ball moving. It's pretty rare that something is so completely cut-and-dried that the developer can work late hours with no outside support to get it done. When that outside support is needed, having the manager right there to get the help that is needed can be a great help.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>... being a manager and staying late with your developers , your first priority should n't be riding them but play a support role.Absolutely .
There 's the very basic support , like ordering the food and making sure the cleaning people do n't turn off all the lights , which is very useful .
But more importantly , being available when something comes up that the developer needs help with .
Question about requirements comes up ?
The manager can call the functional guy and ask .
Problem with access ?
The manager can call up the sysadmins and get the ball moving .
It 's pretty rare that something is so completely cut-and-dried that the developer can work late hours with no outside support to get it done .
When that outside support is needed , having the manager right there to get the help that is needed can be a great help .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... being a manager and staying late with your developers, your first priority shouldn't be riding them but play a support role.Absolutely.
There's the very basic support, like ordering the food and making sure the cleaning people don't turn off all the lights, which is very useful.
But more importantly, being available when something comes up that the developer needs help with.
Question about requirements comes up?
The manager can call the functional guy and ask.
Problem with access?
The manager can call up the sysadmins and get the ball moving.
It's pretty rare that something is so completely cut-and-dried that the developer can work late hours with no outside support to get it done.
When that outside support is needed, having the manager right there to get the help that is needed can be a great help.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30510788</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261399680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's my approach, too. If there's a problem, I get the blame, if there's an Attaboy, my management knows who gets it. And it's not me, it's my developer(s). I've got one who works flex, and if she's up late coding, I am, too. Hard to explain to my wife sometimes, why I need to be available. I don't have to hover, but if I'm there, she gets answers ASAP (yeah, sometimes I *am* the content expert) and doesn't get as frustrated.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's my approach , too .
If there 's a problem , I get the blame , if there 's an Attaboy , my management knows who gets it .
And it 's not me , it 's my developer ( s ) .
I 've got one who works flex , and if she 's up late coding , I am , too .
Hard to explain to my wife sometimes , why I need to be available .
I do n't have to hover , but if I 'm there , she gets answers ASAP ( yeah , sometimes I * am * the content expert ) and does n't get as frustrated .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's my approach, too.
If there's a problem, I get the blame, if there's an Attaboy, my management knows who gets it.
And it's not me, it's my developer(s).
I've got one who works flex, and if she's up late coding, I am, too.
Hard to explain to my wife sometimes, why I need to be available.
I don't have to hover, but if I'm there, she gets answers ASAP (yeah, sometimes I *am* the content expert) and doesn't get as frustrated.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505888</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505958</id>
	<title>Why are they working late?</title>
	<author>91degrees</author>
	<datestamp>1261341420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Sure, occasionally it's essential that something has to be delivered the next day.  In general, working longer hours doesn't reduce development times.  It tires out developers and produces shoddy results.<br> <br>
Work to reach specific goals.  You shouldn't need to stay late to show solidarity because there should be no occasions when they're all working late for extended periods.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure , occasionally it 's essential that something has to be delivered the next day .
In general , working longer hours does n't reduce development times .
It tires out developers and produces shoddy results .
Work to reach specific goals .
You should n't need to stay late to show solidarity because there should be no occasions when they 're all working late for extended periods .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure, occasionally it's essential that something has to be delivered the next day.
In general, working longer hours doesn't reduce development times.
It tires out developers and produces shoddy results.
Work to reach specific goals.
You shouldn't need to stay late to show solidarity because there should be no occasions when they're all working late for extended periods.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505888</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1261340880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Totally agree.  The manager's job is to make the team productive.  Part of this job is sitting between the programmers and senior management and making sure that both parties get what they need from the other, and solving any communication problems.  Part of it is making sure that members of the team are communicating with each other effectively, and making sure that they can work together.  And part of it is staying out of the way when your presence won't help.  By all means stay and order food.  Depending on the team, you may want to be there anyway - if their evening is ruined by having to stay and work late, then knowing that your evening is also suffering the same fate, even if you don't achieve much as a result, can help them as a team, but don't get under their feet. </p><p>
Leadership is often like dancing tango: the trick is knowing when to do nothing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Totally agree .
The manager 's job is to make the team productive .
Part of this job is sitting between the programmers and senior management and making sure that both parties get what they need from the other , and solving any communication problems .
Part of it is making sure that members of the team are communicating with each other effectively , and making sure that they can work together .
And part of it is staying out of the way when your presence wo n't help .
By all means stay and order food .
Depending on the team , you may want to be there anyway - if their evening is ruined by having to stay and work late , then knowing that your evening is also suffering the same fate , even if you do n't achieve much as a result , can help them as a team , but do n't get under their feet .
Leadership is often like dancing tango : the trick is knowing when to do nothing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Totally agree.
The manager's job is to make the team productive.
Part of this job is sitting between the programmers and senior management and making sure that both parties get what they need from the other, and solving any communication problems.
Part of it is making sure that members of the team are communicating with each other effectively, and making sure that they can work together.
And part of it is staying out of the way when your presence won't help.
By all means stay and order food.
Depending on the team, you may want to be there anyway - if their evening is ruined by having to stay and work late, then knowing that your evening is also suffering the same fate, even if you don't achieve much as a result, can help them as a team, but don't get under their feet.
Leadership is often like dancing tango: the trick is knowing when to do nothing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30510056</id>
	<title>Re:40 hours</title>
	<author>lordholm</author>
	<datestamp>1261389120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well, if the project is late, your company will be fined a percentage of the agreed price and you will not get your christmas bonus, or maybe even made redundant because of the company getting less money and being unable to pay their employees.

I was expected to work overtime, and I accepted that without question. But, the company I worked at before gave us compensation in terms of extra free time after deliveries being completed.

Note that, programmers in general should not work longer than 40 h per week due to QR issues. Any more than that and the quality of the product will suffer severely as prolonged workdays make the programmers exhausted (not physically, but mentally). Thus, as a programmer you can expect to occasionally go in and work overtime, but on most occasions, you can expect a 40 h week. When overtime is done occasionally, you can usually ask for flexi leave after the deadline.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , if the project is late , your company will be fined a percentage of the agreed price and you will not get your christmas bonus , or maybe even made redundant because of the company getting less money and being unable to pay their employees .
I was expected to work overtime , and I accepted that without question .
But , the company I worked at before gave us compensation in terms of extra free time after deliveries being completed .
Note that , programmers in general should not work longer than 40 h per week due to QR issues .
Any more than that and the quality of the product will suffer severely as prolonged workdays make the programmers exhausted ( not physically , but mentally ) .
Thus , as a programmer you can expect to occasionally go in and work overtime , but on most occasions , you can expect a 40 h week .
When overtime is done occasionally , you can usually ask for flexi leave after the deadline .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, if the project is late, your company will be fined a percentage of the agreed price and you will not get your christmas bonus, or maybe even made redundant because of the company getting less money and being unable to pay their employees.
I was expected to work overtime, and I accepted that without question.
But, the company I worked at before gave us compensation in terms of extra free time after deliveries being completed.
Note that, programmers in general should not work longer than 40 h per week due to QR issues.
Any more than that and the quality of the product will suffer severely as prolonged workdays make the programmers exhausted (not physically, but mentally).
Thus, as a programmer you can expect to occasionally go in and work overtime, but on most occasions, you can expect a 40 h week.
When overtime is done occasionally, you can usually ask for flexi leave after the deadline.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507466</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506162</id>
	<title>Kinda comic</title>
	<author>Demonantis</author>
	<datestamp>1261299780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Sounds like he doesn't realize how serious the issue is unless his manager is present or his ass is on the line.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sounds like he does n't realize how serious the issue is unless his manager is present or his ass is on the line .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sounds like he doesn't realize how serious the issue is unless his manager is present or his ass is on the line.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30508264</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261321380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just GTFO. The pub is a good option. They're grown up, responsible adults. They don't need you to communicate with the team, they need you to piss off for a while. Go to a karaoke bar perhaps. Maybe a nice dinner or a movie. Just disappear for the 3-4 hours and you'll be doing everyone a favour.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just GTFO .
The pub is a good option .
They 're grown up , responsible adults .
They do n't need you to communicate with the team , they need you to piss off for a while .
Go to a karaoke bar perhaps .
Maybe a nice dinner or a movie .
Just disappear for the 3-4 hours and you 'll be doing everyone a favour .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just GTFO.
The pub is a good option.
They're grown up, responsible adults.
They don't need you to communicate with the team, they need you to piss off for a while.
Go to a karaoke bar perhaps.
Maybe a nice dinner or a movie.
Just disappear for the 3-4 hours and you'll be doing everyone a favour.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505744</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30513440</id>
	<title>Working Late</title>
	<author>Stregano</author>
	<datestamp>1261417620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Wow, that would have been awesome if my boss came in during one big project I was working on where I was working 15 hour days during the week, 15-20 hour days during the weekends for about one month straight.
<br> <br>
I got no overtime, no free lunch from my boss.  I got a paycheck for being salary, but that was it.
<br> <br>
I am actually in the lower 10th percentile for what a programmer analyst should get paid, but since I am still new in the industry, I want to build work experience, so I am staying here until I hit at least 2 years experience.
<br> <br>
Well, my boss did note that I push hard to hit our goals on my 1 year review of my work, but that is what I got and that was about it.
<br> <br>
One thing I have noticed about this industry is something that I was informed about, but did not experience it until this current job, where I will have those months where I am working everyday for a minimum of 15 hours a day, and then I will hit a week or two where I have to drag something small out because I know there is nothing to do besides a small item for the next 2 weeks.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow , that would have been awesome if my boss came in during one big project I was working on where I was working 15 hour days during the week , 15-20 hour days during the weekends for about one month straight .
I got no overtime , no free lunch from my boss .
I got a paycheck for being salary , but that was it .
I am actually in the lower 10th percentile for what a programmer analyst should get paid , but since I am still new in the industry , I want to build work experience , so I am staying here until I hit at least 2 years experience .
Well , my boss did note that I push hard to hit our goals on my 1 year review of my work , but that is what I got and that was about it .
One thing I have noticed about this industry is something that I was informed about , but did not experience it until this current job , where I will have those months where I am working everyday for a minimum of 15 hours a day , and then I will hit a week or two where I have to drag something small out because I know there is nothing to do besides a small item for the next 2 weeks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow, that would have been awesome if my boss came in during one big project I was working on where I was working 15 hour days during the week, 15-20 hour days during the weekends for about one month straight.
I got no overtime, no free lunch from my boss.
I got a paycheck for being salary, but that was it.
I am actually in the lower 10th percentile for what a programmer analyst should get paid, but since I am still new in the industry, I want to build work experience, so I am staying here until I hit at least 2 years experience.
Well, my boss did note that I push hard to hit our goals on my 1 year review of my work, but that is what I got and that was about it.
One thing I have noticed about this industry is something that I was informed about, but did not experience it until this current job, where I will have those months where I am working everyday for a minimum of 15 hours a day, and then I will hit a week or two where I have to drag something small out because I know there is nothing to do besides a small item for the next 2 weeks.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505704</id>
	<title>No</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261339500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How about nobody works late and stick toghether as human beings ?</p><p>I've worked 4 years in the game industry and this is just making me sick. The company makes millions and millions and makes programmers work late without any compensation. They even break the law doing so (at least were I used to work) and don't care about it at all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about nobody works late and stick toghether as human beings ? I 've worked 4 years in the game industry and this is just making me sick .
The company makes millions and millions and makes programmers work late without any compensation .
They even break the law doing so ( at least were I used to work ) and do n't care about it at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about nobody works late and stick toghether as human beings ?I've worked 4 years in the game industry and this is just making me sick.
The company makes millions and millions and makes programmers work late without any compensation.
They even break the law doing so (at least were I used to work) and don't care about it at all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505634</id>
	<title>Generally speaking</title>
	<author>Ed Peepers</author>
	<datestamp>1261338960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A good boss provides direction, clarity in job tasks, and the resources to get the job done.  If the team starts a LAN party whenever the boss leaves the room or are unable to order pizza on their own, the boss might need to stick around.  Otherwise they should get out of the way.  Part of being a good leader is letting go.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A good boss provides direction , clarity in job tasks , and the resources to get the job done .
If the team starts a LAN party whenever the boss leaves the room or are unable to order pizza on their own , the boss might need to stick around .
Otherwise they should get out of the way .
Part of being a good leader is letting go .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A good boss provides direction, clarity in job tasks, and the resources to get the job done.
If the team starts a LAN party whenever the boss leaves the room or are unable to order pizza on their own, the boss might need to stick around.
Otherwise they should get out of the way.
Part of being a good leader is letting go.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506420</id>
	<title>Managers who don't know the details must abide</title>
	<author>rakslice</author>
	<datestamp>1261302120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the manager is staying late to set an example or even for taskmaster duties, that's one thing (it's not a great situation, but it is what it is).</p><p>But when the manager isn't familiar with the technology the devs are using, if the manager is standing around giving bad technical advice, that's a problem no matter what time of day they do it.  Either the manager needs some training, needs to spend some time getting up to speed with the help of knowledgable devs, or just needs to settle into a role where giving technical advice isn't needed. If the manager is second guessing their employees technical decisions excessively, even when they realize that they don't know what they're talking about, simply because they feel their butt's on the line so they've got to ask all the questions they can, they should consider the implications for their butt in the scenario where some of their employees get fed up and talk to their boss' boss about getting them some retraining and/or a job change.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the manager is staying late to set an example or even for taskmaster duties , that 's one thing ( it 's not a great situation , but it is what it is ) .But when the manager is n't familiar with the technology the devs are using , if the manager is standing around giving bad technical advice , that 's a problem no matter what time of day they do it .
Either the manager needs some training , needs to spend some time getting up to speed with the help of knowledgable devs , or just needs to settle into a role where giving technical advice is n't needed .
If the manager is second guessing their employees technical decisions excessively , even when they realize that they do n't know what they 're talking about , simply because they feel their butt 's on the line so they 've got to ask all the questions they can , they should consider the implications for their butt in the scenario where some of their employees get fed up and talk to their boss ' boss about getting them some retraining and/or a job change .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the manager is staying late to set an example or even for taskmaster duties, that's one thing (it's not a great situation, but it is what it is).But when the manager isn't familiar with the technology the devs are using, if the manager is standing around giving bad technical advice, that's a problem no matter what time of day they do it.
Either the manager needs some training, needs to spend some time getting up to speed with the help of knowledgable devs, or just needs to settle into a role where giving technical advice isn't needed.
If the manager is second guessing their employees technical decisions excessively, even when they realize that they don't know what they're talking about, simply because they feel their butt's on the line so they've got to ask all the questions they can, they should consider the implications for their butt in the scenario where some of their employees get fed up and talk to their boss' boss about getting them some retraining and/or a job change.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505700</id>
	<title>Management pager, baby</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261339500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My boss has the perfect answer for this:<br>Get everyone set up with dinner/beverages.  Then, go home, sign in from there, walk away from the computer and keep the pager close.</p><p>We page him if we need anything, or when we get finished.</p><p>Out of our hair, but still handy if needed.  Perfect.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My boss has the perfect answer for this : Get everyone set up with dinner/beverages .
Then , go home , sign in from there , walk away from the computer and keep the pager close.We page him if we need anything , or when we get finished.Out of our hair , but still handy if needed .
Perfect .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My boss has the perfect answer for this:Get everyone set up with dinner/beverages.
Then, go home, sign in from there, walk away from the computer and keep the pager close.We page him if we need anything, or when we get finished.Out of our hair, but still handy if needed.
Perfect.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30538354</id>
	<title>Obviously NO...</title>
	<author>AthleteMusicianNerd</author>
	<datestamp>1259745060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I once had a supervisor(now unemployed because he's incompetent) who did nothing but annoy everyone in the office.  My strategy to get him out of my office was to make it more unpleasant for him to talk to me than vice versa.  It really wasn't hard with this guy either.  Simply by being precise in communicating my thoughts, and calling him out on his lack of precision ultimately drove him crazy.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I once had a supervisor ( now unemployed because he 's incompetent ) who did nothing but annoy everyone in the office .
My strategy to get him out of my office was to make it more unpleasant for him to talk to me than vice versa .
It really was n't hard with this guy either .
Simply by being precise in communicating my thoughts , and calling him out on his lack of precision ultimately drove him crazy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I once had a supervisor(now unemployed because he's incompetent) who did nothing but annoy everyone in the office.
My strategy to get him out of my office was to make it more unpleasant for him to talk to me than vice versa.
It really wasn't hard with this guy either.
Simply by being precise in communicating my thoughts, and calling him out on his lack of precision ultimately drove him crazy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507100</id>
	<title>Re:Yes</title>
	<author>dangitman</author>
	<datestamp>1261307880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Real hackers know that the body is the most impressive machine known to man.</p> </div><p>You clearly haven't read the article about the female submersible robot.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Real hackers know that the body is the most impressive machine known to man .
You clearly have n't read the article about the female submersible robot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Real hackers know that the body is the most impressive machine known to man.
You clearly haven't read the article about the female submersible robot.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507666</id>
	<title>Software engineering is so lost</title>
	<author>bluepinstripe</author>
	<datestamp>1261313580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I hadn't coded in years and never in the language he had to work with.</p></div><p>If as a software development manager you do not have the ability to do the work of those you directly manage, then you shouldn't be managing them. This inability is not tolerated in other engineering disciplines and it shouldn't be tolerated in software engineering either.
</p><p>Note to trolls:
</p><ul>
<li>I only said "ability" and never directly or indirectly implied that you should be able to do the same job as <i>capably</i> as those you manage.</li><li>I said, "those you directly manage"; I don't expect the CEO to be able to engineer software, unless he has software developers reporting to him&mdash;then he better be able to code.</li>
</ul></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I had n't coded in years and never in the language he had to work with.If as a software development manager you do not have the ability to do the work of those you directly manage , then you should n't be managing them .
This inability is not tolerated in other engineering disciplines and it should n't be tolerated in software engineering either .
Note to trolls : I only said " ability " and never directly or indirectly implied that you should be able to do the same job as capably as those you manage.I said , " those you directly manage " ; I do n't expect the CEO to be able to engineer software , unless he has software developers reporting to him    then he better be able to code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hadn't coded in years and never in the language he had to work with.If as a software development manager you do not have the ability to do the work of those you directly manage, then you shouldn't be managing them.
This inability is not tolerated in other engineering disciplines and it shouldn't be tolerated in software engineering either.
Note to trolls:

I only said "ability" and never directly or indirectly implied that you should be able to do the same job as capably as those you manage.I said, "those you directly manage"; I don't expect the CEO to be able to engineer software, unless he has software developers reporting to him—then he better be able to code.

	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505724</id>
	<title>Yes, give them a shot of reality</title>
	<author>Lime Green Bowler</author>
	<datestamp>1261339740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes, make the manager stay and see what us devs have to go though to make deadlines. Deadlines that are usually set by clueless managers. Especially if the manager is salaried and the workers are paid hourly. Get SOMETHING useful out of what the company is paying them.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , make the manager stay and see what us devs have to go though to make deadlines .
Deadlines that are usually set by clueless managers .
Especially if the manager is salaried and the workers are paid hourly .
Get SOMETHING useful out of what the company is paying them .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, make the manager stay and see what us devs have to go though to make deadlines.
Deadlines that are usually set by clueless managers.
Especially if the manager is salaried and the workers are paid hourly.
Get SOMETHING useful out of what the company is paying them.
:)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30524712</id>
	<title>Shared burden</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261502460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And hopefully if it's a burden to the Manager, he'll work to ensure it doesn't happen often.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And hopefully if it 's a burden to the Manager , he 'll work to ensure it does n't happen often .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And hopefully if it's a burden to the Manager, he'll work to ensure it doesn't happen often.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505644</id>
	<title>Depends on the manager.</title>
	<author>Jake S Griffin</author>
	<datestamp>1261339020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've worked in shops where management is pretty much hands-off and let us do our jobs.  Currently however I have a clingy boss who is more a hindrance than anything else.  Doesn't matter if it's after hours or not.  At least the worst of them (yes, multiple supervisors, Office Space-style) is off on Mondays...I used to hate Mondays....</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've worked in shops where management is pretty much hands-off and let us do our jobs .
Currently however I have a clingy boss who is more a hindrance than anything else .
Does n't matter if it 's after hours or not .
At least the worst of them ( yes , multiple supervisors , Office Space-style ) is off on Mondays...I used to hate Mondays... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've worked in shops where management is pretty much hands-off and let us do our jobs.
Currently however I have a clingy boss who is more a hindrance than anything else.
Doesn't matter if it's after hours or not.
At least the worst of them (yes, multiple supervisors, Office Space-style) is off on Mondays...I used to hate Mondays....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30522580</id>
	<title>Re:Real Time Coding</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261488960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Actually, that doesn't work completely unless you're in a small company. If you're anywhere where you need project managers, they will require a quantified progress. As annoying as that is, you will need the guys to buy your stuff for cheaper, track your junk through customs, and worry about getting someone to haul your boxes in and out of your workplace. As much as I dislike project managers, they are a necessary evil unless you want to take care of logistics too (I don't). Gotta take the good with the bad.<br>But I'm guilty, I take a similar approach to what's in your quote. Only that I say "50\%". Then I'm left alone.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , that does n't work completely unless you 're in a small company .
If you 're anywhere where you need project managers , they will require a quantified progress .
As annoying as that is , you will need the guys to buy your stuff for cheaper , track your junk through customs , and worry about getting someone to haul your boxes in and out of your workplace .
As much as I dislike project managers , they are a necessary evil unless you want to take care of logistics too ( I do n't ) .
Got ta take the good with the bad.But I 'm guilty , I take a similar approach to what 's in your quote .
Only that I say " 50 \ % " .
Then I 'm left alone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, that doesn't work completely unless you're in a small company.
If you're anywhere where you need project managers, they will require a quantified progress.
As annoying as that is, you will need the guys to buy your stuff for cheaper, track your junk through customs, and worry about getting someone to haul your boxes in and out of your workplace.
As much as I dislike project managers, they are a necessary evil unless you want to take care of logistics too (I don't).
Gotta take the good with the bad.But I'm guilty, I take a similar approach to what's in your quote.
Only that I say "50\%".
Then I'm left alone.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506200</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505710</id>
	<title>Decision Making</title>
	<author>Hairy1</author>
	<datestamp>1261339620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you are working late because there is a crisis it might be that although a manager cannot do the technical work they can evaluate the situation and determine what to do next.</p><p>A few years ago I was in this situation; we had two developers working late to resolve a customer problem that was critical. My team was very committed and were technically excellent. I knew that I was just getting in the way in many respects. I kept away as far as possible, just keeping an eye on progress (or rather the lack of progress). When it got to the point we were considering deleting customer data to resolve the issue we pulled the plug for the day. It was late, we all wanted to leave, and we were on the verge of making decisions that could have had massive knock on effects. In the end I called it a day and we went home. The issue actually took a week to track down and resolve. The actions we considered on that night would not have helped, and would have caused significant secondary issues.</p><p>The manager is there as a backstop to make sure that actions are not taken that may make things worse. His job is to stand back and look at the larger picture than simply the technical issue; ask himself - what if it can't be fixed tonight? My primary role was one of communication and buffer. That is I could communicate with the customer and support teams while the development team worked relatively unhindered.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you are working late because there is a crisis it might be that although a manager can not do the technical work they can evaluate the situation and determine what to do next.A few years ago I was in this situation ; we had two developers working late to resolve a customer problem that was critical .
My team was very committed and were technically excellent .
I knew that I was just getting in the way in many respects .
I kept away as far as possible , just keeping an eye on progress ( or rather the lack of progress ) .
When it got to the point we were considering deleting customer data to resolve the issue we pulled the plug for the day .
It was late , we all wanted to leave , and we were on the verge of making decisions that could have had massive knock on effects .
In the end I called it a day and we went home .
The issue actually took a week to track down and resolve .
The actions we considered on that night would not have helped , and would have caused significant secondary issues.The manager is there as a backstop to make sure that actions are not taken that may make things worse .
His job is to stand back and look at the larger picture than simply the technical issue ; ask himself - what if it ca n't be fixed tonight ?
My primary role was one of communication and buffer .
That is I could communicate with the customer and support teams while the development team worked relatively unhindered .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you are working late because there is a crisis it might be that although a manager cannot do the technical work they can evaluate the situation and determine what to do next.A few years ago I was in this situation; we had two developers working late to resolve a customer problem that was critical.
My team was very committed and were technically excellent.
I knew that I was just getting in the way in many respects.
I kept away as far as possible, just keeping an eye on progress (or rather the lack of progress).
When it got to the point we were considering deleting customer data to resolve the issue we pulled the plug for the day.
It was late, we all wanted to leave, and we were on the verge of making decisions that could have had massive knock on effects.
In the end I called it a day and we went home.
The issue actually took a week to track down and resolve.
The actions we considered on that night would not have helped, and would have caused significant secondary issues.The manager is there as a backstop to make sure that actions are not taken that may make things worse.
His job is to stand back and look at the larger picture than simply the technical issue; ask himself - what if it can't be fixed tonight?
My primary role was one of communication and buffer.
That is I could communicate with the customer and support teams while the development team worked relatively unhindered.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507124</id>
	<title>This thread is inspiration to me...</title>
	<author>magnusrex1280</author>
	<datestamp>1261308060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've been working in IT since I was a teenager, and I'm currently in the second term of my return to college. I have a BS in comp. sci. and I'm undecided at the moment as to what my end goal is this time around. I've been considering aiming for management in my field, and this thread has truly given me some direction, and some real things to hold true to if I ever achieve the status of "manager."

Thanks to all for the great discussion.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been working in IT since I was a teenager , and I 'm currently in the second term of my return to college .
I have a BS in comp .
sci. and I 'm undecided at the moment as to what my end goal is this time around .
I 've been considering aiming for management in my field , and this thread has truly given me some direction , and some real things to hold true to if I ever achieve the status of " manager .
" Thanks to all for the great discussion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been working in IT since I was a teenager, and I'm currently in the second term of my return to college.
I have a BS in comp.
sci. and I'm undecided at the moment as to what my end goal is this time around.
I've been considering aiming for management in my field, and this thread has truly given me some direction, and some real things to hold true to if I ever achieve the status of "manager.
"

Thanks to all for the great discussion.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30510076</id>
	<title>I do stay behind</title>
	<author>PeteV</author>
	<datestamp>1261389540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>speaking as an ex-dev, now IT director, I do stay - but I have specific rules about it. I dont like my devs to work unnecessarily long hours so I have a blanket ban on anyone in my teams (about 40) working later than 7pm at night and do from time to time return to the office at around 8pm to check - and if I find anyone i send 'em home. If on the other hand we have a major deadline to hit, then a) we make a group decision as to who has to stay and b) all managers of the affected teams stay. Bottom line is we are all in it together. What I dont do is baby sit anyone . I cant code anymore, but I can act as a tester and I can still offer an objective design or issue sounding board - failing that I always have enough work to be getting on with not to be in their hair and I always make sure there is enough pizza</htmltext>
<tokenext>speaking as an ex-dev , now IT director , I do stay - but I have specific rules about it .
I dont like my devs to work unnecessarily long hours so I have a blanket ban on anyone in my teams ( about 40 ) working later than 7pm at night and do from time to time return to the office at around 8pm to check - and if I find anyone i send 'em home .
If on the other hand we have a major deadline to hit , then a ) we make a group decision as to who has to stay and b ) all managers of the affected teams stay .
Bottom line is we are all in it together .
What I dont do is baby sit anyone .
I cant code anymore , but I can act as a tester and I can still offer an objective design or issue sounding board - failing that I always have enough work to be getting on with not to be in their hair and I always make sure there is enough pizza</tokentext>
<sentencetext>speaking as an ex-dev, now IT director, I do stay - but I have specific rules about it.
I dont like my devs to work unnecessarily long hours so I have a blanket ban on anyone in my teams (about 40) working later than 7pm at night and do from time to time return to the office at around 8pm to check - and if I find anyone i send 'em home.
If on the other hand we have a major deadline to hit, then a) we make a group decision as to who has to stay and b) all managers of the affected teams stay.
Bottom line is we are all in it together.
What I dont do is baby sit anyone .
I cant code anymore, but I can act as a tester and I can still offer an objective design or issue sounding board - failing that I always have enough work to be getting on with not to be in their hair and I always make sure there is enough pizza</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506340</id>
	<title>Oh hell no!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261301400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I just got off the death march on a VERY BIG VERY SERIOUS project (hence the AC post).  Here is management's contribution to the project:</p><p>1.  Set the immutable date (no real reason other than a VP will get his bonus in 2010 instead of 2011)<br>2.  Find his own piece of minutiae and force the entire team to focus on it because he is technically inept.<br>3.  Bring in low quality, insufficient amounts of  food and force us to eat at our desks.<br>4.  Ram the project in to meet the deadline while saying things like "We'll test it in production".  and "You've known about this problem for $TIME, you should have fixed it already"<br>5.  Demand to know employees and their spouses PERSONAL cell phone numbers so the employee can be available if he needs them.<br>6.  Leave at 4:00 every day leaving only a few hours for the team to work without his constant interruptions and harassment.</p><p>Finally force into production with the inevitable:</p><p>The system turns out to be a house of cards, the boss gets all high and mighty and begins calling the high-end bosses in other divisions demanding the other divisions workers drop what they're doing and "help" us out.  The on-call staff is burned to the ground like a fireworks factory trying to hold the flimsy system together while the users become unmerciful by paging the on-call people for anything and EVERYTHING.  The bosses simply turn off their phones at 4:00 and demand EVERYONE is in for a "Root Cause Analysis" at 08:00 the next day.</p><p>So Hell no, the less the bosses are around the better.<br>Oh and the VP WILL get the big bonus because the only metric was whether we hit the deadline on time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I just got off the death march on a VERY BIG VERY SERIOUS project ( hence the AC post ) .
Here is management 's contribution to the project : 1 .
Set the immutable date ( no real reason other than a VP will get his bonus in 2010 instead of 2011 ) 2 .
Find his own piece of minutiae and force the entire team to focus on it because he is technically inept.3 .
Bring in low quality , insufficient amounts of food and force us to eat at our desks.4 .
Ram the project in to meet the deadline while saying things like " We 'll test it in production " .
and " You 've known about this problem for $ TIME , you should have fixed it already " 5 .
Demand to know employees and their spouses PERSONAL cell phone numbers so the employee can be available if he needs them.6 .
Leave at 4 : 00 every day leaving only a few hours for the team to work without his constant interruptions and harassment.Finally force into production with the inevitable : The system turns out to be a house of cards , the boss gets all high and mighty and begins calling the high-end bosses in other divisions demanding the other divisions workers drop what they 're doing and " help " us out .
The on-call staff is burned to the ground like a fireworks factory trying to hold the flimsy system together while the users become unmerciful by paging the on-call people for anything and EVERYTHING .
The bosses simply turn off their phones at 4 : 00 and demand EVERYONE is in for a " Root Cause Analysis " at 08 : 00 the next day.So Hell no , the less the bosses are around the better.Oh and the VP WILL get the big bonus because the only metric was whether we hit the deadline on time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just got off the death march on a VERY BIG VERY SERIOUS project (hence the AC post).
Here is management's contribution to the project:1.
Set the immutable date (no real reason other than a VP will get his bonus in 2010 instead of 2011)2.
Find his own piece of minutiae and force the entire team to focus on it because he is technically inept.3.
Bring in low quality, insufficient amounts of  food and force us to eat at our desks.4.
Ram the project in to meet the deadline while saying things like "We'll test it in production".
and "You've known about this problem for $TIME, you should have fixed it already"5.
Demand to know employees and their spouses PERSONAL cell phone numbers so the employee can be available if he needs them.6.
Leave at 4:00 every day leaving only a few hours for the team to work without his constant interruptions and harassment.Finally force into production with the inevitable:The system turns out to be a house of cards, the boss gets all high and mighty and begins calling the high-end bosses in other divisions demanding the other divisions workers drop what they're doing and "help" us out.
The on-call staff is burned to the ground like a fireworks factory trying to hold the flimsy system together while the users become unmerciful by paging the on-call people for anything and EVERYTHING.
The bosses simply turn off their phones at 4:00 and demand EVERYONE is in for a "Root Cause Analysis" at 08:00 the next day.So Hell no, the less the bosses are around the better.Oh and the VP WILL get the big bonus because the only metric was whether we hit the deadline on time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30511566</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261407960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have been managing developments teams for 10 years and I follow these simple rules:</p><p>1. I act as grease in the wheel so my team keeps working without interruptions or BS<br>2. I shield them from all the BS, meetings, business decisions, etc so they focus on what they are getting paid for, development<br>3. I care more about my team then the project. It is common for me to give the whole team off a day here and there without counting it.  I have delayed projects by few days to help alleviate the pressure on the guys</p><p>The way I see it is that I work for the team not the other way around</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have been managing developments teams for 10 years and I follow these simple rules : 1 .
I act as grease in the wheel so my team keeps working without interruptions or BS2 .
I shield them from all the BS , meetings , business decisions , etc so they focus on what they are getting paid for , development3 .
I care more about my team then the project .
It is common for me to give the whole team off a day here and there without counting it .
I have delayed projects by few days to help alleviate the pressure on the guysThe way I see it is that I work for the team not the other way around</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have been managing developments teams for 10 years and I follow these simple rules:1.
I act as grease in the wheel so my team keeps working without interruptions or BS2.
I shield them from all the BS, meetings, business decisions, etc so they focus on what they are getting paid for, development3.
I care more about my team then the project.
It is common for me to give the whole team off a day here and there without counting it.
I have delayed projects by few days to help alleviate the pressure on the guysThe way I see it is that I work for the team not the other way around</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505668</id>
	<title>Not just in coding...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261339260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not a programmer, but a journalist. My best hovering manager story was 2 years ago, when a shopping mall caught fire in the middle of the night. A photog and I put down our beers and rushed out there. When we got back to the office, the editor was there, and it's a good thing, too. His instructions to me were to "write something quickly, so we can get it in the paper." To the photog, he said, "pick out your two or three best pictures." I shudder to think what we'd have done w/o that guidance.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/sarcasm</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not a programmer , but a journalist .
My best hovering manager story was 2 years ago , when a shopping mall caught fire in the middle of the night .
A photog and I put down our beers and rushed out there .
When we got back to the office , the editor was there , and it 's a good thing , too .
His instructions to me were to " write something quickly , so we can get it in the paper .
" To the photog , he said , " pick out your two or three best pictures .
" I shudder to think what we 'd have done w/o that guidance .
/sarcasm</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not a programmer, but a journalist.
My best hovering manager story was 2 years ago, when a shopping mall caught fire in the middle of the night.
A photog and I put down our beers and rushed out there.
When we got back to the office, the editor was there, and it's a good thing, too.
His instructions to me were to "write something quickly, so we can get it in the paper.
" To the photog, he said, "pick out your two or three best pictures.
" I shudder to think what we'd have done w/o that guidance.
/sarcasm</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506684</id>
	<title>Re:A good manager...</title>
	<author>im\_thatoneguy</author>
	<datestamp>1261304400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You obviously don't have clients.</p><p>If all of your deadlines are internal then that's fine but you're ignoring the client wild card.  You can setup layers of punishment for a client missing a deadline but we often work with clients who have the resources to buy their ways out of their own failures.</p><p>You "need approval" by Monday for a Friday delivery.  You get the approval on Thursday.  They then say that it goes on air on Tuesday and has to be done no matter what.  Now you're working a weekend. They'll get hit with an overage but they're willing to spend it because they'll probably just pass along the cost to their client for dragging their feet.</p><p>The alternative is to not have overages and penalties for missing client deadlines and simply say "No." that'll last about one time before the client gets fired and nobody will use you again lest they suffer the same fate.</p><p>You also ignore the "big project" in your theory.   Sometimes a huge opportunity comes along that you can't pass up.  Maybe you're already full so this'll have to be on top of the existing work-load.  Maybe it's a job with lots of exposure and will lead to a lot of future work that you can plan for but don't have time to staff up for at present.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You obviously do n't have clients.If all of your deadlines are internal then that 's fine but you 're ignoring the client wild card .
You can setup layers of punishment for a client missing a deadline but we often work with clients who have the resources to buy their ways out of their own failures.You " need approval " by Monday for a Friday delivery .
You get the approval on Thursday .
They then say that it goes on air on Tuesday and has to be done no matter what .
Now you 're working a weekend .
They 'll get hit with an overage but they 're willing to spend it because they 'll probably just pass along the cost to their client for dragging their feet.The alternative is to not have overages and penalties for missing client deadlines and simply say " No .
" that 'll last about one time before the client gets fired and nobody will use you again lest they suffer the same fate.You also ignore the " big project " in your theory .
Sometimes a huge opportunity comes along that you ca n't pass up .
Maybe you 're already full so this 'll have to be on top of the existing work-load .
Maybe it 's a job with lots of exposure and will lead to a lot of future work that you can plan for but do n't have time to staff up for at present .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You obviously don't have clients.If all of your deadlines are internal then that's fine but you're ignoring the client wild card.
You can setup layers of punishment for a client missing a deadline but we often work with clients who have the resources to buy their ways out of their own failures.You "need approval" by Monday for a Friday delivery.
You get the approval on Thursday.
They then say that it goes on air on Tuesday and has to be done no matter what.
Now you're working a weekend.
They'll get hit with an overage but they're willing to spend it because they'll probably just pass along the cost to their client for dragging their feet.The alternative is to not have overages and penalties for missing client deadlines and simply say "No.
" that'll last about one time before the client gets fired and nobody will use you again lest they suffer the same fate.You also ignore the "big project" in your theory.
Sometimes a huge opportunity comes along that you can't pass up.
Maybe you're already full so this'll have to be on top of the existing work-load.
Maybe it's a job with lots of exposure and will lead to a lot of future work that you can plan for but don't have time to staff up for at present.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505750</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507040</id>
	<title>Absolutely!</title>
	<author>Ferretman</author>
	<datestamp>1261307400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I absolutely want managers to be there too!
<br>
<br>
Generally the off-shift stuff is their idea/fault/decision in the first place, so if I'm in it they need to lead by example and be there too.  Whether it's overtime in the evenings or weekend work, I expect the ones responsible to be there too.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I absolutely want managers to be there too !
Generally the off-shift stuff is their idea/fault/decision in the first place , so if I 'm in it they need to lead by example and be there too .
Whether it 's overtime in the evenings or weekend work , I expect the ones responsible to be there too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I absolutely want managers to be there too!
Generally the off-shift stuff is their idea/fault/decision in the first place, so if I'm in it they need to lead by example and be there too.
Whether it's overtime in the evenings or weekend work, I expect the ones responsible to be there too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505800</id>
	<title>Do as you ask your employees</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261340400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I will never ask my team to work late or weekends without being there myself.  It's not mistrust.  It's that I should not ask my people to sacrifice their personal time without doing so myself.</p><p>I typically stay in my office and keep busy.  My door open to answer any questions or to provide any needed support. I also make sure meals are provided.  If it's a situation where we're working extra for a critical customer escalation or a deadline, I will occasionally walk about to get status.  Sometimes it's important to understand if it's time to call in another functional team (CM, QA, support, etc) because their entry is soon to be met.  Part of our task is to coordinate tasks.  If it's a situation where we're doing this for a couple weeks to catch up on a blown schedule (usually VP dictated feature creep), then I leave the engineers be as I would during normal working hours.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I will never ask my team to work late or weekends without being there myself .
It 's not mistrust .
It 's that I should not ask my people to sacrifice their personal time without doing so myself.I typically stay in my office and keep busy .
My door open to answer any questions or to provide any needed support .
I also make sure meals are provided .
If it 's a situation where we 're working extra for a critical customer escalation or a deadline , I will occasionally walk about to get status .
Sometimes it 's important to understand if it 's time to call in another functional team ( CM , QA , support , etc ) because their entry is soon to be met .
Part of our task is to coordinate tasks .
If it 's a situation where we 're doing this for a couple weeks to catch up on a blown schedule ( usually VP dictated feature creep ) , then I leave the engineers be as I would during normal working hours .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I will never ask my team to work late or weekends without being there myself.
It's not mistrust.
It's that I should not ask my people to sacrifice their personal time without doing so myself.I typically stay in my office and keep busy.
My door open to answer any questions or to provide any needed support.
I also make sure meals are provided.
If it's a situation where we're working extra for a critical customer escalation or a deadline, I will occasionally walk about to get status.
Sometimes it's important to understand if it's time to call in another functional team (CM, QA, support, etc) because their entry is soon to be met.
Part of our task is to coordinate tasks.
If it's a situation where we're doing this for a couple weeks to catch up on a blown schedule (usually VP dictated feature creep), then I leave the engineers be as I would during normal working hours.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506378</id>
	<title>What kind of manager are you?</title>
	<author>santiagodraco</author>
	<datestamp>1261301700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This isn't a yes or no answer.  If you are an ass-hole manager who is constantly checking to see how far along your coder is, then you should probably get your ass home and leave him/her free to think and work.  If you are supportive, can add value - even if it's to say "hey, I'm here if you need me", grab the pizza, stock the sodas in the fridge, whatever - then you should hang.   Knowing that you are there to back them up can be very helpful.</p><p>You have to know what kind of manager you are and how your team feels about you, then you can answer your own question.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is n't a yes or no answer .
If you are an ass-hole manager who is constantly checking to see how far along your coder is , then you should probably get your ass home and leave him/her free to think and work .
If you are supportive , can add value - even if it 's to say " hey , I 'm here if you need me " , grab the pizza , stock the sodas in the fridge , whatever - then you should hang .
Knowing that you are there to back them up can be very helpful.You have to know what kind of manager you are and how your team feels about you , then you can answer your own question .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This isn't a yes or no answer.
If you are an ass-hole manager who is constantly checking to see how far along your coder is, then you should probably get your ass home and leave him/her free to think and work.
If you are supportive, can add value - even if it's to say "hey, I'm here if you need me", grab the pizza, stock the sodas in the fridge, whatever - then you should hang.
Knowing that you are there to back them up can be very helpful.You have to know what kind of manager you are and how your team feels about you, then you can answer your own question.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30511758</id>
	<title>Stay Late, with a Qualification</title>
	<author>ReadParse</author>
	<datestamp>1261409220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I manage developers and they can count on me to be here if they're here (and when they're not).   But I'm also *not* a useless lackey.  I'm a developer myself and I'm here because I add something to the process.  In addition to going to get the food (which I always do), I can actually participate in the process of making decisions and solving problems.</p><p>In my opinion, if you can't do that, you shouldn't be in the position.   And you certainly shouldn't be looking over anybody's shoulder if you're not needed.  Give them the space.  Surely you have some of your own work you can do while you wait.</p><p>But yes, be there -- unless you can't be there without getting in the way, in which case you should leave.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I manage developers and they can count on me to be here if they 're here ( and when they 're not ) .
But I 'm also * not * a useless lackey .
I 'm a developer myself and I 'm here because I add something to the process .
In addition to going to get the food ( which I always do ) , I can actually participate in the process of making decisions and solving problems.In my opinion , if you ca n't do that , you should n't be in the position .
And you certainly should n't be looking over anybody 's shoulder if you 're not needed .
Give them the space .
Surely you have some of your own work you can do while you wait.But yes , be there -- unless you ca n't be there without getting in the way , in which case you should leave .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I manage developers and they can count on me to be here if they're here (and when they're not).
But I'm also *not* a useless lackey.
I'm a developer myself and I'm here because I add something to the process.
In addition to going to get the food (which I always do), I can actually participate in the process of making decisions and solving problems.In my opinion, if you can't do that, you shouldn't be in the position.
And you certainly shouldn't be looking over anybody's shoulder if you're not needed.
Give them the space.
Surely you have some of your own work you can do while you wait.But yes, be there -- unless you can't be there without getting in the way, in which case you should leave.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505824</id>
	<title>From my experience</title>
	<author>tenverras</author>
	<datestamp>1261340520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Now, this is not my line of work and it never will be, but I don't think whether it be developers or another type of job, it is always beneficial to have someone a rank above you present. It doesn't matter if the manager has no ability for what his workers are doing, if he has a friendly relationship with his workers, understands that positive reinforcement(such as ordering pizza) is better than just making sure people are focused, and allows some extra freedoms since these hours are beyond the norm, then having a manager present will result in better output.
I've spent many years as a supervisor and assistant manager at the restaurants I have worked at - yes, I realize these work environments are a little more casual than what is suggested in this article - and these principles have always served me well for when I and others have to work past when we would normally close up and go home.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Now , this is not my line of work and it never will be , but I do n't think whether it be developers or another type of job , it is always beneficial to have someone a rank above you present .
It does n't matter if the manager has no ability for what his workers are doing , if he has a friendly relationship with his workers , understands that positive reinforcement ( such as ordering pizza ) is better than just making sure people are focused , and allows some extra freedoms since these hours are beyond the norm , then having a manager present will result in better output .
I 've spent many years as a supervisor and assistant manager at the restaurants I have worked at - yes , I realize these work environments are a little more casual than what is suggested in this article - and these principles have always served me well for when I and others have to work past when we would normally close up and go home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now, this is not my line of work and it never will be, but I don't think whether it be developers or another type of job, it is always beneficial to have someone a rank above you present.
It doesn't matter if the manager has no ability for what his workers are doing, if he has a friendly relationship with his workers, understands that positive reinforcement(such as ordering pizza) is better than just making sure people are focused, and allows some extra freedoms since these hours are beyond the norm, then having a manager present will result in better output.
I've spent many years as a supervisor and assistant manager at the restaurants I have worked at - yes, I realize these work environments are a little more casual than what is suggested in this article - and these principles have always served me well for when I and others have to work past when we would normally close up and go home.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506786</id>
	<title>Leaders inquire within</title>
	<author>SteveTauber</author>
	<datestamp>1261305480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>We have a saying at my work: "Lead, don't manage."  It does wonders for morale and productivity.</htmltext>
<tokenext>We have a saying at my work : " Lead , do n't manage .
" It does wonders for morale and productivity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We have a saying at my work: "Lead, don't manage.
"  It does wonders for morale and productivity.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505820</id>
	<title>manager must stay</title>
	<author>SkunkPussy</author>
	<datestamp>1261340520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the manager demands that I fuck up my evening/sleep then that's fair enough but he also must stay. agreed he shouldn't interfere, but there's no way im staying that late if he's not also prepared to sacrifice his evening.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the manager demands that I fuck up my evening/sleep then that 's fair enough but he also must stay .
agreed he should n't interfere , but there 's no way im staying that late if he 's not also prepared to sacrifice his evening .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the manager demands that I fuck up my evening/sleep then that's fair enough but he also must stay.
agreed he shouldn't interfere, but there's no way im staying that late if he's not also prepared to sacrifice his evening.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507158</id>
	<title>You are in command!!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261308360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>YES! If you are in charge, you STAY!!! The man in charge, no matter how little he does, is still in charge. He should be the last one to leave!!! I don't care if you're in the military, or a programmer, or on Wall Street, or if you even run a cleaning crew, you're in charge so you have to stay.<br>If you leave you only reveal how NOT in charge you really are!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>YES !
If you are in charge , you STAY ! ! !
The man in charge , no matter how little he does , is still in charge .
He should be the last one to leave ! ! !
I do n't care if you 're in the military , or a programmer , or on Wall Street , or if you even run a cleaning crew , you 're in charge so you have to stay.If you leave you only reveal how NOT in charge you really are !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>YES!
If you are in charge, you STAY!!!
The man in charge, no matter how little he does, is still in charge.
He should be the last one to leave!!!
I don't care if you're in the military, or a programmer, or on Wall Street, or if you even run a cleaning crew, you're in charge so you have to stay.If you leave you only reveal how NOT in charge you really are!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30509866</id>
	<title>It shouldn't be a recurring issue</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261386180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I understand there are times when you need to stay late and finish something. However, it sounds like this is a recurring pattern. Try to decrease the number of times you end up in this situation rather than improving upon, and promoting, your company's last-minute-culture.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I understand there are times when you need to stay late and finish something .
However , it sounds like this is a recurring pattern .
Try to decrease the number of times you end up in this situation rather than improving upon , and promoting , your company 's last-minute-culture .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I understand there are times when you need to stay late and finish something.
However, it sounds like this is a recurring pattern.
Try to decrease the number of times you end up in this situation rather than improving upon, and promoting, your company's last-minute-culture.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30535382</id>
	<title>depends on skankiness</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259770560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If she's hot and puts out,  she should absolutely hang out and provide stress reducing "management activities" during after-hours sessions.</p><p>Otherwise, he'she should just buy you a hooker who gives massages and leave you to your work... =).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If she 's hot and puts out , she should absolutely hang out and provide stress reducing " management activities " during after-hours sessions.Otherwise , he'she should just buy you a hooker who gives massages and leave you to your work... = ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If she's hot and puts out,  she should absolutely hang out and provide stress reducing "management activities" during after-hours sessions.Otherwise, he'she should just buy you a hooker who gives massages and leave you to your work... =).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505982</id>
	<title>Not at our shop...</title>
	<author>ducomputergeek</author>
	<datestamp>1261341540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Generally I'm there until midnight or 1AM ANYWAY, but most of my developers probably get the bulk of new work done between 10PM - 2AM. I think we have more code commits during the 1AM hour than any other.  Sometimes they work at home, other times at the office, if the Application and Web Development people are working on something that involves the API.  But  typically our developers set their own hours.  Just so long as the work gets done by the due date and are responsive to SMS if we have an "Oh shit" moment and they need to come in.  It happens, but not often.</p><p>However, I HAVE to be at the office at 8AM and keep normal business hours for client meetings and if clients call with problems, they expect someone to be there and as it stands right now, the buck stops at my desk.  Generally everyone is in the office by 11AM and if have meetings it is usually during lunchtime.  Afternoons are usually spent fixing any issues that may have popped up and if the different development teams need to work together.</p><p>Then again, we're a small company, with 10 full-time  developers plus six interns (4CS, 2ECE) at the moment.  We have 4 + 3 Interns on Desktop &amp; Mobile Java Application Development (Java Team), 4+1 intern Web Development Group, and 2 of us who are Database &amp; Systems people with 2 interns working on a R&amp;D project.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Generally I 'm there until midnight or 1AM ANYWAY , but most of my developers probably get the bulk of new work done between 10PM - 2AM .
I think we have more code commits during the 1AM hour than any other .
Sometimes they work at home , other times at the office , if the Application and Web Development people are working on something that involves the API .
But typically our developers set their own hours .
Just so long as the work gets done by the due date and are responsive to SMS if we have an " Oh shit " moment and they need to come in .
It happens , but not often.However , I HAVE to be at the office at 8AM and keep normal business hours for client meetings and if clients call with problems , they expect someone to be there and as it stands right now , the buck stops at my desk .
Generally everyone is in the office by 11AM and if have meetings it is usually during lunchtime .
Afternoons are usually spent fixing any issues that may have popped up and if the different development teams need to work together.Then again , we 're a small company , with 10 full-time developers plus six interns ( 4CS , 2ECE ) at the moment .
We have 4 + 3 Interns on Desktop &amp; Mobile Java Application Development ( Java Team ) , 4 + 1 intern Web Development Group , and 2 of us who are Database &amp; Systems people with 2 interns working on a R&amp;D project .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Generally I'm there until midnight or 1AM ANYWAY, but most of my developers probably get the bulk of new work done between 10PM - 2AM.
I think we have more code commits during the 1AM hour than any other.
Sometimes they work at home, other times at the office, if the Application and Web Development people are working on something that involves the API.
But  typically our developers set their own hours.
Just so long as the work gets done by the due date and are responsive to SMS if we have an "Oh shit" moment and they need to come in.
It happens, but not often.However, I HAVE to be at the office at 8AM and keep normal business hours for client meetings and if clients call with problems, they expect someone to be there and as it stands right now, the buck stops at my desk.
Generally everyone is in the office by 11AM and if have meetings it is usually during lunchtime.
Afternoons are usually spent fixing any issues that may have popped up and if the different development teams need to work together.Then again, we're a small company, with 10 full-time  developers plus six interns (4CS, 2ECE) at the moment.
We have 4 + 3 Interns on Desktop &amp; Mobile Java Application Development (Java Team), 4+1 intern Web Development Group, and 2 of us who are Database &amp; Systems people with 2 interns working on a R&amp;D project.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505848</id>
	<title>Manager must stay</title>
	<author>mhelander</author>
	<datestamp>1261340700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The job of the manager is to help the developers prioritize. In an overtime situation, prioritization is all the more necessary. Only the manager can take the decisions about what to cut to meet both deadline and essential requirements. Only the manager can legitimately revise the definition of "done" to adapt to resource constraints.</p><p>Sure, if the directive is clearly "implement all of it, no excuses" then the manager isn't really needed, during the overtime nor at any other time during the project - at least not more than in the capacity of "spy" for higher ups to track implementation velocity and perhaps wielder of a whip.</p><p>But to a real manager, the question of whether they could go home during the time they would quite obviously be the most useful to the project should seem a very suspect one to ask.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The job of the manager is to help the developers prioritize .
In an overtime situation , prioritization is all the more necessary .
Only the manager can take the decisions about what to cut to meet both deadline and essential requirements .
Only the manager can legitimately revise the definition of " done " to adapt to resource constraints.Sure , if the directive is clearly " implement all of it , no excuses " then the manager is n't really needed , during the overtime nor at any other time during the project - at least not more than in the capacity of " spy " for higher ups to track implementation velocity and perhaps wielder of a whip.But to a real manager , the question of whether they could go home during the time they would quite obviously be the most useful to the project should seem a very suspect one to ask .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The job of the manager is to help the developers prioritize.
In an overtime situation, prioritization is all the more necessary.
Only the manager can take the decisions about what to cut to meet both deadline and essential requirements.
Only the manager can legitimately revise the definition of "done" to adapt to resource constraints.Sure, if the directive is clearly "implement all of it, no excuses" then the manager isn't really needed, during the overtime nor at any other time during the project - at least not more than in the capacity of "spy" for higher ups to track implementation velocity and perhaps wielder of a whip.But to a real manager, the question of whether they could go home during the time they would quite obviously be the most useful to the project should seem a very suspect one to ask.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505858</id>
	<title>By your theory</title>
	<author>Guil Rarey</author>
	<datestamp>1261340700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A good manager has godlike omnipotent powers to handle all externalities and all incidents and occurences of Murphy's Law etc.....</p><p>Unplanned overtime happens because sometimes, sh*t happens, even in the best run organization.  The best manager is still not responsible or able to control what sales promised the customer nor what legal said were restrictions on the code, nor the schedule changes the customer asked for.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A good manager has godlike omnipotent powers to handle all externalities and all incidents and occurences of Murphy 's Law etc.....Unplanned overtime happens because sometimes , sh * t happens , even in the best run organization .
The best manager is still not responsible or able to control what sales promised the customer nor what legal said were restrictions on the code , nor the schedule changes the customer asked for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A good manager has godlike omnipotent powers to handle all externalities and all incidents and occurences of Murphy's Law etc.....Unplanned overtime happens because sometimes, sh*t happens, even in the best run organization.
The best manager is still not responsible or able to control what sales promised the customer nor what legal said were restrictions on the code, nor the schedule changes the customer asked for.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505750</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30531842</id>
	<title>Here's a better idea: STOP WORKING LATE!</title>
	<author>Money for Nothin'</author>
	<datestamp>1261493640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously.  The insanity of working late to meet some artificial, wholly-arbitrary deadline has to stop.</p><p>Unless people *actually* die if you miss your deadline -- i.e., unless you work for the CIA or maybe work directly with patients in a hospital -- go home.  Your wife, kids, dog, and personal mental health will sincerely thank you.</p><p>Your boss likely won't do that, and even if he does, he won't compensate you for your extra time.  Unless you believe in communism, stop working for free.</p><p>And yes, I am completely serious...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously .
The insanity of working late to meet some artificial , wholly-arbitrary deadline has to stop.Unless people * actually * die if you miss your deadline -- i.e. , unless you work for the CIA or maybe work directly with patients in a hospital -- go home .
Your wife , kids , dog , and personal mental health will sincerely thank you.Your boss likely wo n't do that , and even if he does , he wo n't compensate you for your extra time .
Unless you believe in communism , stop working for free.And yes , I am completely serious.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously.
The insanity of working late to meet some artificial, wholly-arbitrary deadline has to stop.Unless people *actually* die if you miss your deadline -- i.e., unless you work for the CIA or maybe work directly with patients in a hospital -- go home.
Your wife, kids, dog, and personal mental health will sincerely thank you.Your boss likely won't do that, and even if he does, he won't compensate you for your extra time.
Unless you believe in communism, stop working for free.And yes, I am completely serious...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506474</id>
	<title>morale booster</title>
	<author>pbjones</author>
	<datestamp>1261302480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>nothing made me happier than at 6 am, after an all night repair job, a manager turns up with toasted sandwiches and hot coffee. Don't get in their way but certainly handle the pizza and coffee. Maybe a good time for informal chats, without an office full of people, get some of your own work done, and at the end you do all of the locking up etc, while they go home.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>nothing made me happier than at 6 am , after an all night repair job , a manager turns up with toasted sandwiches and hot coffee .
Do n't get in their way but certainly handle the pizza and coffee .
Maybe a good time for informal chats , without an office full of people , get some of your own work done , and at the end you do all of the locking up etc , while they go home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>nothing made me happier than at 6 am, after an all night repair job, a manager turns up with toasted sandwiches and hot coffee.
Don't get in their way but certainly handle the pizza and coffee.
Maybe a good time for informal chats, without an office full of people, get some of your own work done, and at the end you do all of the locking up etc, while they go home.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30510512</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1261396020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not necessarily. If someone isn't tossed into the job of being a leader, if it's basically his own idea to delegate what someone else can (most likely) do better, he might be in the right position as the leader.</p><p>Good leaders rarely do. They make decisions (if they're good, the decisions will be good), they find suitable people, they ensure that the necessary materials are available (again, they will go to the relevant people to do that, they won't go to the supermarket themselves) and they will monitor that the execution is done correctly.</p><p>If you dump someone into the leadership position who has neither leadership skills nor the will and ability to delegate, you will end up with someone who would be better suited to another position. Then, and only then, the Peter Principle is fulfilled.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not necessarily .
If someone is n't tossed into the job of being a leader , if it 's basically his own idea to delegate what someone else can ( most likely ) do better , he might be in the right position as the leader.Good leaders rarely do .
They make decisions ( if they 're good , the decisions will be good ) , they find suitable people , they ensure that the necessary materials are available ( again , they will go to the relevant people to do that , they wo n't go to the supermarket themselves ) and they will monitor that the execution is done correctly.If you dump someone into the leadership position who has neither leadership skills nor the will and ability to delegate , you will end up with someone who would be better suited to another position .
Then , and only then , the Peter Principle is fulfilled .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not necessarily.
If someone isn't tossed into the job of being a leader, if it's basically his own idea to delegate what someone else can (most likely) do better, he might be in the right position as the leader.Good leaders rarely do.
They make decisions (if they're good, the decisions will be good), they find suitable people, they ensure that the necessary materials are available (again, they will go to the relevant people to do that, they won't go to the supermarket themselves) and they will monitor that the execution is done correctly.If you dump someone into the leadership position who has neither leadership skills nor the will and ability to delegate, you will end up with someone who would be better suited to another position.
Then, and only then, the Peter Principle is fulfilled.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507644</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505750</id>
	<title>A good manager...</title>
	<author>TrumpetPower!</author>
	<datestamp>1261339860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A good manager would not put his employees into such a situation in the first place.</p><p>Overtime in general, and unplanned overtime in particular, can only be attributed to one (or both) of two causes:</p><ol>
    <li>management failed to create a realistic schedule with sufficient &ldquo;Murphy&rdquo; factor and / or failed to ensure the work remained on schedule (avoid dead ends or prevent goldbricking); or</li><li>insufficient resources (financial, personnel, materiel, or otherwise) were provided for the job at hand.</li></ol><p>As you can see, the two are closely related. If one has a reduced budget to work with, the proper answer is either a reduced project scope or an increased timeline.</p><p>&ldquo;Good. Fast. Cheap. Pick two.&rdquo;</p><p>Punishing workers for failures of management is a sure sign of an unhealthy corporate environment.</p><p>A middle manager may be squeezed from both sides, but then either it&rsquo;s a failure of the middle manager to manage those below, or to manage the expectations of those above, or of those above to manage their end of things.</p><p>Of course, an exception can be made in the case of true disasters, such as fire, illness, or other catastrophe. But management&rsquo;s second responsibility &mdash; after running interference during the crisis &mdash; should be getting things back to normal.</p><p>Otherwise, what on Earth is management being paid for?</p><p>Cheers,</p><p>b&amp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A good manager would not put his employees into such a situation in the first place.Overtime in general , and unplanned overtime in particular , can only be attributed to one ( or both ) of two causes : management failed to create a realistic schedule with sufficient    Murphy    factor and / or failed to ensure the work remained on schedule ( avoid dead ends or prevent goldbricking ) ; orinsufficient resources ( financial , personnel , materiel , or otherwise ) were provided for the job at hand.As you can see , the two are closely related .
If one has a reduced budget to work with , the proper answer is either a reduced project scope or an increased timeline.    Good .
Fast. Cheap .
Pick two.    Punishing workers for failures of management is a sure sign of an unhealthy corporate environment.A middle manager may be squeezed from both sides , but then either it    s a failure of the middle manager to manage those below , or to manage the expectations of those above , or of those above to manage their end of things.Of course , an exception can be made in the case of true disasters , such as fire , illness , or other catastrophe .
But management    s second responsibility    after running interference during the crisis    should be getting things back to normal.Otherwise , what on Earth is management being paid for ? Cheers,b&amp;</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A good manager would not put his employees into such a situation in the first place.Overtime in general, and unplanned overtime in particular, can only be attributed to one (or both) of two causes:
    management failed to create a realistic schedule with sufficient “Murphy” factor and / or failed to ensure the work remained on schedule (avoid dead ends or prevent goldbricking); orinsufficient resources (financial, personnel, materiel, or otherwise) were provided for the job at hand.As you can see, the two are closely related.
If one has a reduced budget to work with, the proper answer is either a reduced project scope or an increased timeline.“Good.
Fast. Cheap.
Pick two.”Punishing workers for failures of management is a sure sign of an unhealthy corporate environment.A middle manager may be squeezed from both sides, but then either it’s a failure of the middle manager to manage those below, or to manage the expectations of those above, or of those above to manage their end of things.Of course, an exception can be made in the case of true disasters, such as fire, illness, or other catastrophe.
But management’s second responsibility — after running interference during the crisis — should be getting things back to normal.Otherwise, what on Earth is management being paid for?Cheers,b&amp;</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506566</id>
	<title>It's called a team</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261303320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Because the experienced, competent team was replaced with idiots from India on H1-Bs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because the experienced , competent team was replaced with idiots from India on H1-Bs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because the experienced, competent team was replaced with idiots from India on H1-Bs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506056</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506336</id>
	<title>management</title>
	<author>TheSHAD0W</author>
	<datestamp>1261301340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A good manager will still be a good manager at 9pm.  A bad manager not only will still be a bad manager at 9pm, but he'll feel obligated to be there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A good manager will still be a good manager at 9pm .
A bad manager not only will still be a bad manager at 9pm , but he 'll feel obligated to be there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A good manager will still be a good manager at 9pm.
A bad manager not only will still be a bad manager at 9pm, but he'll feel obligated to be there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505600</id>
	<title>Only if the manager asked for extra work</title>
	<author>bigjuantehfurby</author>
	<datestamp>1261338720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If the manager asked for the developers to do extra work...a shortened timeline, extra workload dumped on the department, whatever.  If the manager has asked his team to give up some of their time (with pay, of course), you're damn right the manager should be there too.  He probably has work he could do too, but if nothing else, he should be cheerleading (delivering pizza, atta-boys, making jokes to help keep the developers mood light, and so on).  It doesn't matter if the manager messed up or not...developers have a schedule, and if you ask your people to work more than what they're scheduled, you'd better have your ass planted in YOUR chair until the last person goes home.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If the manager asked for the developers to do extra work...a shortened timeline , extra workload dumped on the department , whatever .
If the manager has asked his team to give up some of their time ( with pay , of course ) , you 're damn right the manager should be there too .
He probably has work he could do too , but if nothing else , he should be cheerleading ( delivering pizza , atta-boys , making jokes to help keep the developers mood light , and so on ) .
It does n't matter if the manager messed up or not...developers have a schedule , and if you ask your people to work more than what they 're scheduled , you 'd better have your ass planted in YOUR chair until the last person goes home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the manager asked for the developers to do extra work...a shortened timeline, extra workload dumped on the department, whatever.
If the manager has asked his team to give up some of their time (with pay, of course), you're damn right the manager should be there too.
He probably has work he could do too, but if nothing else, he should be cheerleading (delivering pizza, atta-boys, making jokes to help keep the developers mood light, and so on).
It doesn't matter if the manager messed up or not...developers have a schedule, and if you ask your people to work more than what they're scheduled, you'd better have your ass planted in YOUR chair until the last person goes home.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506020</id>
	<title>I think so, but</title>
	<author>xx01dk</author>
	<datestamp>1261341840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>it depends on how well your team works together. I've had both good teams and bad--the bad ones are where having your boss hovering over your shoulder is a huge encumbrance. But the good times, those were great; your boss can play any number of positive roles, from getting the pizza to running interference between his subordinates and his superiors, to using his position to Get Things Done with parts supply or special access etc. So OP, if you're a good boss and your guys like having you around, then by all means you should stay. But if you sense you might be getting in the way but you still think you should stay, then go hole up in your cube--your guys will appreciate your sacrifice all that much more.</htmltext>
<tokenext>it depends on how well your team works together .
I 've had both good teams and bad--the bad ones are where having your boss hovering over your shoulder is a huge encumbrance .
But the good times , those were great ; your boss can play any number of positive roles , from getting the pizza to running interference between his subordinates and his superiors , to using his position to Get Things Done with parts supply or special access etc .
So OP , if you 're a good boss and your guys like having you around , then by all means you should stay .
But if you sense you might be getting in the way but you still think you should stay , then go hole up in your cube--your guys will appreciate your sacrifice all that much more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>it depends on how well your team works together.
I've had both good teams and bad--the bad ones are where having your boss hovering over your shoulder is a huge encumbrance.
But the good times, those were great; your boss can play any number of positive roles, from getting the pizza to running interference between his subordinates and his superiors, to using his position to Get Things Done with parts supply or special access etc.
So OP, if you're a good boss and your guys like having you around, then by all means you should stay.
But if you sense you might be getting in the way but you still think you should stay, then go hole up in your cube--your guys will appreciate your sacrifice all that much more.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505580</id>
	<title>Just make sure everyone knows the situation</title>
	<author>UnknowingFool</author>
	<datestamp>1261338600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>If deadlines are coming and you need to stay late with your employees make sure the situation:  Everybody's butt is on the line including yours.  That being said, also make the distinction between shepherding the process as opposed to micro-managing the process.  Sometimes, a management decision might need to be made late. If you're there that helps ease the stress of an already stressful period.  You're also there so be helpful so that they code focus on coding.  Documentation needs screenshots before product goes out:  You can handle that.  QA needs someone to tweak the test plan?  You can handle that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If deadlines are coming and you need to stay late with your employees make sure the situation : Everybody 's butt is on the line including yours .
That being said , also make the distinction between shepherding the process as opposed to micro-managing the process .
Sometimes , a management decision might need to be made late .
If you 're there that helps ease the stress of an already stressful period .
You 're also there so be helpful so that they code focus on coding .
Documentation needs screenshots before product goes out : You can handle that .
QA needs someone to tweak the test plan ?
You can handle that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If deadlines are coming and you need to stay late with your employees make sure the situation:  Everybody's butt is on the line including yours.
That being said, also make the distinction between shepherding the process as opposed to micro-managing the process.
Sometimes, a management decision might need to be made late.
If you're there that helps ease the stress of an already stressful period.
You're also there so be helpful so that they code focus on coding.
Documentation needs screenshots before product goes out:  You can handle that.
QA needs someone to tweak the test plan?
You can handle that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30509530</id>
	<title>I got sacked for it</title>
	<author>((hristopher \_-*-\_-*</author>
	<datestamp>1261336860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I stayed back to support my crew and when \_my\_ boss found out, he chewed me out, then sacked me shortly after.  I think it was because \_his\_ boss (CEO) came through the next day and wondered why he wasn't also working the midnight oil, therefore making me look a little \_too\_ good in the CEO's eyes (he made an example of me in front of the higher managers on how to properly perform as a team, wish he hadn't).</p><p>Worst company I've worked for.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I stayed back to support my crew and when \ _my \ _ boss found out , he chewed me out , then sacked me shortly after .
I think it was because \ _his \ _ boss ( CEO ) came through the next day and wondered why he was n't also working the midnight oil , therefore making me look a little \ _too \ _ good in the CEO 's eyes ( he made an example of me in front of the higher managers on how to properly perform as a team , wish he had n't ) .Worst company I 've worked for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I stayed back to support my crew and when \_my\_ boss found out, he chewed me out, then sacked me shortly after.
I think it was because \_his\_ boss (CEO) came through the next day and wondered why he wasn't also working the midnight oil, therefore making me look a little \_too\_ good in the CEO's eyes (he made an example of me in front of the higher managers on how to properly perform as a team, wish he hadn't).Worst company I've worked for.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30510808</id>
	<title>Where does it say ....</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1261399860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>.... that the team has to be sitting in the same place at the same time?</p><p>Don't you have a clear delineation of your responsibilities and the tasks that you need to accomplish?</p><p>Don't you have a clear delineation of how you will be compensated for your work out of hours?</p><p>If you have both of the above, why do you need your boss around?</p><p>Do you need moral support?  Cant you gather enough of that while you are planning your work or during the emergency planning for the work you are now doing?</p><p>Honestly, I see no reason for this "Titanic" approach to working culture.<br>
&nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>.... that the team has to be sitting in the same place at the same time ? Do n't you have a clear delineation of your responsibilities and the tasks that you need to accomplish ? Do n't you have a clear delineation of how you will be compensated for your work out of hours ? If you have both of the above , why do you need your boss around ? Do you need moral support ?
Cant you gather enough of that while you are planning your work or during the emergency planning for the work you are now doing ? Honestly , I see no reason for this " Titanic " approach to working culture .
 </tokentext>
<sentencetext>.... that the team has to be sitting in the same place at the same time?Don't you have a clear delineation of your responsibilities and the tasks that you need to accomplish?Don't you have a clear delineation of how you will be compensated for your work out of hours?If you have both of the above, why do you need your boss around?Do you need moral support?
Cant you gather enough of that while you are planning your work or during the emergency planning for the work you are now doing?Honestly, I see no reason for this "Titanic" approach to working culture.
 </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507184</id>
	<title>Stay and assist only</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261308540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yup, manager should stay.  If they don't it only breeds resentment among staff.

Though they should stay out of the way.  Coffee, pizza delivery, write documentation that you can, budget work... keeping higher ups and biz partners from bugging developers directly.  Just stay out of the way and try to make things as efficient as possibly by handling all the non-developer things you can.

Best managers are the ones who follow that advice.  Keep busy, assist in every way possible to let developers do nothing else but code, and otherwise just stay out of the way.

Nothing breeds hate other than to hand off a bunch of work and run off... just looks like your lazy and clueless as to what's going on.  At the very least play flash games in your office and pretend to work.  Ideally help with non-code work.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yup , manager should stay .
If they do n't it only breeds resentment among staff .
Though they should stay out of the way .
Coffee , pizza delivery , write documentation that you can , budget work... keeping higher ups and biz partners from bugging developers directly .
Just stay out of the way and try to make things as efficient as possibly by handling all the non-developer things you can .
Best managers are the ones who follow that advice .
Keep busy , assist in every way possible to let developers do nothing else but code , and otherwise just stay out of the way .
Nothing breeds hate other than to hand off a bunch of work and run off... just looks like your lazy and clueless as to what 's going on .
At the very least play flash games in your office and pretend to work .
Ideally help with non-code work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yup, manager should stay.
If they don't it only breeds resentment among staff.
Though they should stay out of the way.
Coffee, pizza delivery, write documentation that you can, budget work... keeping higher ups and biz partners from bugging developers directly.
Just stay out of the way and try to make things as efficient as possibly by handling all the non-developer things you can.
Best managers are the ones who follow that advice.
Keep busy, assist in every way possible to let developers do nothing else but code, and otherwise just stay out of the way.
Nothing breeds hate other than to hand off a bunch of work and run off... just looks like your lazy and clueless as to what's going on.
At the very least play flash games in your office and pretend to work.
Ideally help with non-code work.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30510456</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1261395000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm very capable of getting my own coffee and, while it would be nice if he paid, I can even afford pizza on my salary.</p><p>I need a manager for is to make sure that the higher ups don't pester me. Your job is phone duty so I can code in peace!</p><p>In all seriousness, that's where I see a manager's duty, and I don't mean just during weekend crunches. Make sure I have the tools I need. Fend off people bugging me. Make sure I can concentrate on my task!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm very capable of getting my own coffee and , while it would be nice if he paid , I can even afford pizza on my salary.I need a manager for is to make sure that the higher ups do n't pester me .
Your job is phone duty so I can code in peace ! In all seriousness , that 's where I see a manager 's duty , and I do n't mean just during weekend crunches .
Make sure I have the tools I need .
Fend off people bugging me .
Make sure I can concentrate on my task !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm very capable of getting my own coffee and, while it would be nice if he paid, I can even afford pizza on my salary.I need a manager for is to make sure that the higher ups don't pester me.
Your job is phone duty so I can code in peace!In all seriousness, that's where I see a manager's duty, and I don't mean just during weekend crunches.
Make sure I have the tools I need.
Fend off people bugging me.
Make sure I can concentrate on my task!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507046</id>
	<title>Re:Yes</title>
	<author>tool462</author>
	<datestamp>1261307460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Taking pride in lack of sleep is like taking pride in hitting yourself with a hammer.<br>Taking pride in living on coffee, mountain dew and pizza, is like taking pride in drinking a shot glass of poison once a day.<br>It is not cool, it is not &ldquo;manly&rdquo;, it is not hackerish, is is not geeky.<br>It&rdquo;s Joe-Lower-Class-level retard-&ldquo;coolness&rdquo;.</p></div><p>Speaking as a coffee drinking, beer swilling, pizza eating, 4-hour-a-night sleeping Joe-Lower-Class-level retard, I agree completely.  I can take a hammer better than anybody.  They don't call me Mjolnir's Bane for nothing.</p><p>Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to my hooker &amp; blackjack party.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Taking pride in lack of sleep is like taking pride in hitting yourself with a hammer.Taking pride in living on coffee , mountain dew and pizza , is like taking pride in drinking a shot glass of poison once a day.It is not cool , it is not    manly    , it is not hackerish , is is not geeky.It    s Joe-Lower-Class-level retard-    coolness    .Speaking as a coffee drinking , beer swilling , pizza eating , 4-hour-a-night sleeping Joe-Lower-Class-level retard , I agree completely .
I can take a hammer better than anybody .
They do n't call me Mjolnir 's Bane for nothing.Now , if you 'll excuse me , I 'm off to my hooker &amp; blackjack party .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Taking pride in lack of sleep is like taking pride in hitting yourself with a hammer.Taking pride in living on coffee, mountain dew and pizza, is like taking pride in drinking a shot glass of poison once a day.It is not cool, it is not “manly”, it is not hackerish, is is not geeky.It”s Joe-Lower-Class-level retard-“coolness”.Speaking as a coffee drinking, beer swilling, pizza eating, 4-hour-a-night sleeping Joe-Lower-Class-level retard, I agree completely.
I can take a hammer better than anybody.
They don't call me Mjolnir's Bane for nothing.Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to my hooker &amp; blackjack party.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505940</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>IWasNotMe</author>
	<datestamp>1261341240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Agreed.  If people work overtime, the boss should do everything possible to support the team.</p><p>I'd also like to add that in this day and age, there really isn't much need for developers to work over time <i>in the office.</i>  If managers want developers to work extra time, they should be OK with them doing it on their own terms.  If the developer prefers working in the office, then great.  But many developers (particularly the more senior ones) have families.  Letting them go home, have dinner with the family then work later in the evening will help productivity.</p><p>I suppose there are some situations where working in the office is required in order to be productive, but with all the advances in networking technology it's more rare.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed .
If people work overtime , the boss should do everything possible to support the team.I 'd also like to add that in this day and age , there really is n't much need for developers to work over time in the office .
If managers want developers to work extra time , they should be OK with them doing it on their own terms .
If the developer prefers working in the office , then great .
But many developers ( particularly the more senior ones ) have families .
Letting them go home , have dinner with the family then work later in the evening will help productivity.I suppose there are some situations where working in the office is required in order to be productive , but with all the advances in networking technology it 's more rare .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed.
If people work overtime, the boss should do everything possible to support the team.I'd also like to add that in this day and age, there really isn't much need for developers to work over time in the office.
If managers want developers to work extra time, they should be OK with them doing it on their own terms.
If the developer prefers working in the office, then great.
But many developers (particularly the more senior ones) have families.
Letting them go home, have dinner with the family then work later in the evening will help productivity.I suppose there are some situations where working in the office is required in order to be productive, but with all the advances in networking technology it's more rare.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30517224</id>
	<title>Ima Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261392000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First off, if the developers are always having to stay late, the manager isn't doing his/her job.  Now, if they are running behind schedule, it's the managers job to bring that schedule into focus with the stake holders.  Good plans usually get trashed because the managers allow stake holders to change the plan mid stream and forget to actually adjust the schedule accordingly.</p><p>If the manager feels a need to stay late with the develoeprs, this can be a good thing.  Bringing the pizza in is a morale builder.  Cranking the tunes up is a morale builder.  Stopping them occasionally just to bs with a few of them swapping stories is a morale.  Now, treating them like a normal employee during a normal shift after hours, that's a morale killer.  Asking them to keep it down after hours is a morale killer.  staying late and not interacting is the same as not being there, a morale killer.</p><p>If you are making your people stay late regularly, you might want to as well, but make yourself useful, don't criticise, and basically you need to be there b i t c h (hey, no offense made here, you're staying late for them, make it worth it).</p><p>So, balance the equation.  Do you need to be there and if so, can you make a difference to help them?</p><p>As a coder, my managers were sometimes incapable or tying their shoes, thus stay away from me.  As a former technologies manager for a larger top 5 bank, I had to have my people stay late on several days.  I generally would only stay around if they needed me, but occasionally I would stay around so they would not that we are all taking one for the team.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First off , if the developers are always having to stay late , the manager is n't doing his/her job .
Now , if they are running behind schedule , it 's the managers job to bring that schedule into focus with the stake holders .
Good plans usually get trashed because the managers allow stake holders to change the plan mid stream and forget to actually adjust the schedule accordingly.If the manager feels a need to stay late with the develoeprs , this can be a good thing .
Bringing the pizza in is a morale builder .
Cranking the tunes up is a morale builder .
Stopping them occasionally just to bs with a few of them swapping stories is a morale .
Now , treating them like a normal employee during a normal shift after hours , that 's a morale killer .
Asking them to keep it down after hours is a morale killer .
staying late and not interacting is the same as not being there , a morale killer.If you are making your people stay late regularly , you might want to as well , but make yourself useful , do n't criticise , and basically you need to be there b i t c h ( hey , no offense made here , you 're staying late for them , make it worth it ) .So , balance the equation .
Do you need to be there and if so , can you make a difference to help them ? As a coder , my managers were sometimes incapable or tying their shoes , thus stay away from me .
As a former technologies manager for a larger top 5 bank , I had to have my people stay late on several days .
I generally would only stay around if they needed me , but occasionally I would stay around so they would not that we are all taking one for the team .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First off, if the developers are always having to stay late, the manager isn't doing his/her job.
Now, if they are running behind schedule, it's the managers job to bring that schedule into focus with the stake holders.
Good plans usually get trashed because the managers allow stake holders to change the plan mid stream and forget to actually adjust the schedule accordingly.If the manager feels a need to stay late with the develoeprs, this can be a good thing.
Bringing the pizza in is a morale builder.
Cranking the tunes up is a morale builder.
Stopping them occasionally just to bs with a few of them swapping stories is a morale.
Now, treating them like a normal employee during a normal shift after hours, that's a morale killer.
Asking them to keep it down after hours is a morale killer.
staying late and not interacting is the same as not being there, a morale killer.If you are making your people stay late regularly, you might want to as well, but make yourself useful, don't criticise, and basically you need to be there b i t c h (hey, no offense made here, you're staying late for them, make it worth it).So, balance the equation.
Do you need to be there and if so, can you make a difference to help them?As a coder, my managers were sometimes incapable or tying their shoes, thus stay away from me.
As a former technologies manager for a larger top 5 bank, I had to have my people stay late on several days.
I generally would only stay around if they needed me, but occasionally I would stay around so they would not that we are all taking one for the team.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506068</id>
	<title>Hell yeah!</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1261342260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>His mismanagement is the reason they &ldquo;have&rdquo; to work late is the first place!</p><p>A good manager is always the last one to go and the first one to come. Not the other way around.<br>I have seen enough people who owned their own company, and because it was their life, there was no point in leaving. (Ok, they should not forget their family. I have also seen where that ends. And it&rsquo;s very ugly.)</p><p>So usually, if a manager is quick to go home, or stays away very often, you know that he does not really care or like it. That means, it&rsquo;s time to find a new job, that will not fall into pieces as soon as that manager leaves, an the others find out that it was all smoke and mirrors.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>His mismanagement is the reason they    have    to work late is the first place ! A good manager is always the last one to go and the first one to come .
Not the other way around.I have seen enough people who owned their own company , and because it was their life , there was no point in leaving .
( Ok , they should not forget their family .
I have also seen where that ends .
And it    s very ugly .
) So usually , if a manager is quick to go home , or stays away very often , you know that he does not really care or like it .
That means , it    s time to find a new job , that will not fall into pieces as soon as that manager leaves , an the others find out that it was all smoke and mirrors .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>His mismanagement is the reason they “have” to work late is the first place!A good manager is always the last one to go and the first one to come.
Not the other way around.I have seen enough people who owned their own company, and because it was their life, there was no point in leaving.
(Ok, they should not forget their family.
I have also seen where that ends.
And it’s very ugly.
)So usually, if a manager is quick to go home, or stays away very often, you know that he does not really care or like it.
That means, it’s time to find a new job, that will not fall into pieces as soon as that manager leaves, an the others find out that it was all smoke and mirrors.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507340</id>
	<title>Not an answer to get from /.</title>
	<author>Evil Shabazz</author>
	<datestamp>1261309980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is not an answer you can get from<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.  Nor should you be trying to get it here.  That you are asking it of<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. says much, indeed.  In the end, every situation requiring after hours development is different.  Sometimes having the manager around is more useful.  Sometimes NOT having the manager around is more useful.  Somewhere along the line, MBAs the world over convinced everyone that there was a logical decoupling of the understanding requiring for managing a business and the understanding of the business being managed.  This, inevitably, means that more often than not, it is the staff who know more about what needs to be done than does the manager.  The good IT managers have realized this and understand that their role is now more one of strategic thinking based on team recommendation mixed with supporting and enabling their team with resources and authority than one of hands-on involvement or mentoring in the execution of any of the underlying details.  This, in turn, means that for every scenario the team has to work after hours, the manager's job is to ask 2 questions: First, ask the team, "Is there anything I can do to help or can you foresee any challenges I might be able to remove?"  Second, if they say no, then ask yourself, "If I'm going home, is there anything I can do to show my team some small measure of my and the company's appreciation that they're not?"</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is not an answer you can get from / .
Nor should you be trying to get it here .
That you are asking it of / .
says much , indeed .
In the end , every situation requiring after hours development is different .
Sometimes having the manager around is more useful .
Sometimes NOT having the manager around is more useful .
Somewhere along the line , MBAs the world over convinced everyone that there was a logical decoupling of the understanding requiring for managing a business and the understanding of the business being managed .
This , inevitably , means that more often than not , it is the staff who know more about what needs to be done than does the manager .
The good IT managers have realized this and understand that their role is now more one of strategic thinking based on team recommendation mixed with supporting and enabling their team with resources and authority than one of hands-on involvement or mentoring in the execution of any of the underlying details .
This , in turn , means that for every scenario the team has to work after hours , the manager 's job is to ask 2 questions : First , ask the team , " Is there anything I can do to help or can you foresee any challenges I might be able to remove ?
" Second , if they say no , then ask yourself , " If I 'm going home , is there anything I can do to show my team some small measure of my and the company 's appreciation that they 're not ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is not an answer you can get from /.
Nor should you be trying to get it here.
That you are asking it of /.
says much, indeed.
In the end, every situation requiring after hours development is different.
Sometimes having the manager around is more useful.
Sometimes NOT having the manager around is more useful.
Somewhere along the line, MBAs the world over convinced everyone that there was a logical decoupling of the understanding requiring for managing a business and the understanding of the business being managed.
This, inevitably, means that more often than not, it is the staff who know more about what needs to be done than does the manager.
The good IT managers have realized this and understand that their role is now more one of strategic thinking based on team recommendation mixed with supporting and enabling their team with resources and authority than one of hands-on involvement or mentoring in the execution of any of the underlying details.
This, in turn, means that for every scenario the team has to work after hours, the manager's job is to ask 2 questions: First, ask the team, "Is there anything I can do to help or can you foresee any challenges I might be able to remove?
"  Second, if they say no, then ask yourself, "If I'm going home, is there anything I can do to show my team some small measure of my and the company's appreciation that they're not?
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506586</id>
	<title>Don't stay late..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261303560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>People didn't fight for a 40 hour work-week so us computer geeks can stay late. The occasional deadline, sure, if time and a half is paid.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People did n't fight for a 40 hour work-week so us computer geeks can stay late .
The occasional deadline , sure , if time and a half is paid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People didn't fight for a 40 hour work-week so us computer geeks can stay late.
The occasional deadline, sure, if time and a half is paid.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505884</id>
	<title>Simple answer, yes!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261340880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If I'm a developer and my manager asks me to work late to hit a deadline (shit happens sometimes), then bolts, I'm not very happy, especially if you *know* the situation was a managerial screw-up (as much as we'd like them to *all* be managerial screw ups, they aren't all).</p><p>If I'm a manager, and I ask my developers to work late to hit a deadline (shit happens sometimes), I ask them what they need to be the most productive. Food, beverages, me getting out of their way. One of the roles of manager is to "take one for the team" so your developers don't have to, especially if it is your screw up (admitting it is your fault goes a *long* way to gain credibility).</p><p>The stunning thing about this question (and almost every manager/employee situation) is the complete lack of the most basic level of communication. Everyone involved is a person. Treat them as such and things will be pretty much okay.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If I 'm a developer and my manager asks me to work late to hit a deadline ( shit happens sometimes ) , then bolts , I 'm not very happy , especially if you * know * the situation was a managerial screw-up ( as much as we 'd like them to * all * be managerial screw ups , they are n't all ) .If I 'm a manager , and I ask my developers to work late to hit a deadline ( shit happens sometimes ) , I ask them what they need to be the most productive .
Food , beverages , me getting out of their way .
One of the roles of manager is to " take one for the team " so your developers do n't have to , especially if it is your screw up ( admitting it is your fault goes a * long * way to gain credibility ) .The stunning thing about this question ( and almost every manager/employee situation ) is the complete lack of the most basic level of communication .
Everyone involved is a person .
Treat them as such and things will be pretty much okay .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I'm a developer and my manager asks me to work late to hit a deadline (shit happens sometimes), then bolts, I'm not very happy, especially if you *know* the situation was a managerial screw-up (as much as we'd like them to *all* be managerial screw ups, they aren't all).If I'm a manager, and I ask my developers to work late to hit a deadline (shit happens sometimes), I ask them what they need to be the most productive.
Food, beverages, me getting out of their way.
One of the roles of manager is to "take one for the team" so your developers don't have to, especially if it is your screw up (admitting it is your fault goes a *long* way to gain credibility).The stunning thing about this question (and almost every manager/employee situation) is the complete lack of the most basic level of communication.
Everyone involved is a person.
Treat them as such and things will be pretty much okay.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506172</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Dmala</author>
	<datestamp>1261299900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Exactly.  Nothing irritates me more than to have the manager who agreed to the ridiculous, unreasonable schedule that forced us to work late going, "OK, see you guys. IM me if you need anything," and then going home to have dinner with his family.  Fuck that, you're at least party responsible, you should stay and suffer with us, even if all you're doing is ordering pizza and answering questions.  I think if more managers had to work 16 hour days they'd push a little harder to work out reasonable schedules.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly .
Nothing irritates me more than to have the manager who agreed to the ridiculous , unreasonable schedule that forced us to work late going , " OK , see you guys .
IM me if you need anything , " and then going home to have dinner with his family .
Fuck that , you 're at least party responsible , you should stay and suffer with us , even if all you 're doing is ordering pizza and answering questions .
I think if more managers had to work 16 hour days they 'd push a little harder to work out reasonable schedules .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly.
Nothing irritates me more than to have the manager who agreed to the ridiculous, unreasonable schedule that forced us to work late going, "OK, see you guys.
IM me if you need anything," and then going home to have dinner with his family.
Fuck that, you're at least party responsible, you should stay and suffer with us, even if all you're doing is ordering pizza and answering questions.
I think if more managers had to work 16 hour days they'd push a little harder to work out reasonable schedules.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506050</id>
	<title>Re:It depends</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261342080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; The 9-5 coders with no bugs will be late to the market<br>This is sheer BS, and a common view I have come across in, well what can only be described as average developers, unprofessional devs.</p><p>I'm a "9-5 developer" (as you so eloquently put it) and I deliver quality code (although not always without bugs) and ALL functionality requested on time.  OTOH, I have worked with devs who have admitted to deliberately taking longer to deliver, so that they can rack up the overtime pay!</p><p>In my experience, those devs that are in need of overtime are either subjected to poorly prescribed deadlines or are not up to scratch (or in the wrong line of work).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; The 9-5 coders with no bugs will be late to the marketThis is sheer BS , and a common view I have come across in , well what can only be described as average developers , unprofessional devs.I 'm a " 9-5 developer " ( as you so eloquently put it ) and I deliver quality code ( although not always without bugs ) and ALL functionality requested on time .
OTOH , I have worked with devs who have admitted to deliberately taking longer to deliver , so that they can rack up the overtime pay ! In my experience , those devs that are in need of overtime are either subjected to poorly prescribed deadlines or are not up to scratch ( or in the wrong line of work ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; The 9-5 coders with no bugs will be late to the marketThis is sheer BS, and a common view I have come across in, well what can only be described as average developers, unprofessional devs.I'm a "9-5 developer" (as you so eloquently put it) and I deliver quality code (although not always without bugs) and ALL functionality requested on time.
OTOH, I have worked with devs who have admitted to deliberately taking longer to deliver, so that they can rack up the overtime pay!In my experience, those devs that are in need of overtime are either subjected to poorly prescribed deadlines or are not up to scratch (or in the wrong line of work).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505662</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507466</id>
	<title>40 hours</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261311240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In this country, our work-week is <b>40 hours</b>. Our ancestors fought hard and made great sacrifices to win this right and pass it down to us, and I'll be damned if I'll see it steadily erode. Routine unpaid overtime is harmful not only to ourselves individually, but to the entire social contract we've managed to hammer out between capital and labor.</p><p>Respect yourself. Do <b>not</b> work more than 40 hours without getting the same time and a half premium someone in any other field would earn. If a project is late, that's not <b>your</b> fault. It's management's, and management ought to pay for the mistake.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In this country , our work-week is 40 hours .
Our ancestors fought hard and made great sacrifices to win this right and pass it down to us , and I 'll be damned if I 'll see it steadily erode .
Routine unpaid overtime is harmful not only to ourselves individually , but to the entire social contract we 've managed to hammer out between capital and labor.Respect yourself .
Do not work more than 40 hours without getting the same time and a half premium someone in any other field would earn .
If a project is late , that 's not your fault .
It 's management 's , and management ought to pay for the mistake .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In this country, our work-week is 40 hours.
Our ancestors fought hard and made great sacrifices to win this right and pass it down to us, and I'll be damned if I'll see it steadily erode.
Routine unpaid overtime is harmful not only to ourselves individually, but to the entire social contract we've managed to hammer out between capital and labor.Respect yourself.
Do not work more than 40 hours without getting the same time and a half premium someone in any other field would earn.
If a project is late, that's not your fault.
It's management's, and management ought to pay for the mistake.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30512506</id>
	<title>Re:No</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261413420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They aren't breaking the law doing it.  Note the exceptions to the Fair Labor Standards Act - both salaried professionals and well compensated hourly computer jobs are exempt from the overtime rules.  <a href="http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/screen75.asp" title="dol.gov" rel="nofollow">http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/screen75.asp</a> [dol.gov]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They are n't breaking the law doing it .
Note the exceptions to the Fair Labor Standards Act - both salaried professionals and well compensated hourly computer jobs are exempt from the overtime rules .
http : //www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/screen75.asp [ dol.gov ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They aren't breaking the law doing it.
Note the exceptions to the Fair Labor Standards Act - both salaried professionals and well compensated hourly computer jobs are exempt from the overtime rules.
http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/screen75.asp [dol.gov]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506196</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>efalk</author>
	<datestamp>1261300080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree.</p><p>In my experience, the manager's primary -- and arguably only -- job is to act as a barrier between engineers and paperwork and other distractions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree.In my experience , the manager 's primary -- and arguably only -- job is to act as a barrier between engineers and paperwork and other distractions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree.In my experience, the manager's primary -- and arguably only -- job is to act as a barrier between engineers and paperwork and other distractions.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506056</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507226</id>
	<title>how did we get here?</title>
	<author>Channing</author>
	<datestamp>1261308960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Apart from agreeing with other replies about supporting the team and staying our of their way, the manager should also be pondering how they got to this mess in the first place. Having to work late is a screw-up, somewhere. Sometimes its because of things outside of the team's control but most of the time it isn't. If it happens regularly then there is definitely a systemic problem with the process that needs to be sorted out.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Apart from agreeing with other replies about supporting the team and staying our of their way , the manager should also be pondering how they got to this mess in the first place .
Having to work late is a screw-up , somewhere .
Sometimes its because of things outside of the team 's control but most of the time it is n't .
If it happens regularly then there is definitely a systemic problem with the process that needs to be sorted out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Apart from agreeing with other replies about supporting the team and staying our of their way, the manager should also be pondering how they got to this mess in the first place.
Having to work late is a screw-up, somewhere.
Sometimes its because of things outside of the team's control but most of the time it isn't.
If it happens regularly then there is definitely a systemic problem with the process that needs to be sorted out.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30508778</id>
	<title>It sounds like a hedge answer, but "it depends"...</title>
	<author>javabandit</author>
	<datestamp>1261327560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Interesting.  I've never heard the converse question... "When the manager comes in early, should the developers come in early?"  But that's another topic...</p><p>The real question is "why would the manager stay?"  Here are some possible -- one or more -- reasons:</p><p>1) Because the manager does not trust that the job will get done... "trust but verify".</p><p>2) Because the manager feels like it will gain him/her credibility with the team.</p><p>3) Because the manager feels guilty and wants to share in the pain.</p><p>4) Because the manager feels like it will give the bosses peace of mind during hard times.</p><p>I can't think of any other reasons.  But it is important to say that usually, if a manager wants to stick around, it is for noble reasons.</p><p>My advice to developers, is that if reasons #2, #3, or #4 are any of the motivations for their boss to stick around... cut them a break.  Even if #1 is also a reason.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Interesting .
I 've never heard the converse question... " When the manager comes in early , should the developers come in early ?
" But that 's another topic...The real question is " why would the manager stay ?
" Here are some possible -- one or more -- reasons : 1 ) Because the manager does not trust that the job will get done... " trust but verify " .2 ) Because the manager feels like it will gain him/her credibility with the team.3 ) Because the manager feels guilty and wants to share in the pain.4 ) Because the manager feels like it will give the bosses peace of mind during hard times.I ca n't think of any other reasons .
But it is important to say that usually , if a manager wants to stick around , it is for noble reasons.My advice to developers , is that if reasons # 2 , # 3 , or # 4 are any of the motivations for their boss to stick around... cut them a break .
Even if # 1 is also a reason .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Interesting.
I've never heard the converse question... "When the manager comes in early, should the developers come in early?
"  But that's another topic...The real question is "why would the manager stay?
"  Here are some possible -- one or more -- reasons:1) Because the manager does not trust that the job will get done... "trust but verify".2) Because the manager feels like it will gain him/her credibility with the team.3) Because the manager feels guilty and wants to share in the pain.4) Because the manager feels like it will give the bosses peace of mind during hard times.I can't think of any other reasons.
But it is important to say that usually, if a manager wants to stick around, it is for noble reasons.My advice to developers, is that if reasons #2, #3, or #4 are any of the motivations for their boss to stick around... cut them a break.
Even if #1 is also a reason.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507388</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>cs02rm0</author>
	<datestamp>1261310280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>For me it isn't just that I want him in the shit with me there and then, more than likely he will just be in the way unless he's just ordering pizza.<br> <br>
Instead, I want to make sure that when he's making the decision to drop me in the shit again every day for the next three weeks that he's not doing it refreshed and knowing <i>he</i> can go home to where his wife's got a meal waiting, but miserably tired and desperate not to stay under the fluorescents for another shift.</htmltext>
<tokenext>For me it is n't just that I want him in the shit with me there and then , more than likely he will just be in the way unless he 's just ordering pizza .
Instead , I want to make sure that when he 's making the decision to drop me in the shit again every day for the next three weeks that he 's not doing it refreshed and knowing he can go home to where his wife 's got a meal waiting , but miserably tired and desperate not to stay under the fluorescents for another shift .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For me it isn't just that I want him in the shit with me there and then, more than likely he will just be in the way unless he's just ordering pizza.
Instead, I want to make sure that when he's making the decision to drop me in the shit again every day for the next three weeks that he's not doing it refreshed and knowing he can go home to where his wife's got a meal waiting, but miserably tired and desperate not to stay under the fluorescents for another shift.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30510826</id>
	<title>Now it makes sense.</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1261400220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>All this nonsensical management style comes from the US, where lots of people have seen this in play in the US Army, one of the biggest employers in the US.</p><p>Well, you are wrong, it is just a job, doing draconian shifts is not helping, is bullying your reports into putting unsocial hours when the real solution should be to have more resources.</p><p>The most productive companies I have seen (Asia, Mexico, UK, Germany) worked 9-5 and the boss was chasing people out of the door at 16:55.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>All this nonsensical management style comes from the US , where lots of people have seen this in play in the US Army , one of the biggest employers in the US.Well , you are wrong , it is just a job , doing draconian shifts is not helping , is bullying your reports into putting unsocial hours when the real solution should be to have more resources.The most productive companies I have seen ( Asia , Mexico , UK , Germany ) worked 9-5 and the boss was chasing people out of the door at 16 : 55 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All this nonsensical management style comes from the US, where lots of people have seen this in play in the US Army, one of the biggest employers in the US.Well, you are wrong, it is just a job, doing draconian shifts is not helping, is bullying your reports into putting unsocial hours when the real solution should be to have more resources.The most productive companies I have seen (Asia, Mexico, UK, Germany) worked 9-5 and the boss was chasing people out of the door at 16:55.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505878</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30508764</id>
	<title>Re:Yes</title>
	<author>Idiomatick</author>
	<datestamp>1261327320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9968-top-10-steps-to-a-better-brain.html?full=true#faq2" title="newscientist.com">http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9968-top-10-steps-to-a-better-brain.html?full=true#faq2</a> [newscientist.com] <br> <br>Above article is extremely relevant. I'm sure most nerds would find the whole thing interesting. The one section however is specifically about how foods effect your brain function and which ones are good.</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //www.newscientist.com/article/dn9968-top-10-steps-to-a-better-brain.html ? full = true # faq2 [ newscientist.com ] Above article is extremely relevant .
I 'm sure most nerds would find the whole thing interesting .
The one section however is specifically about how foods effect your brain function and which ones are good .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9968-top-10-steps-to-a-better-brain.html?full=true#faq2 [newscientist.com]  Above article is extremely relevant.
I'm sure most nerds would find the whole thing interesting.
The one section however is specifically about how foods effect your brain function and which ones are good.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505640</id>
	<title>Kinda depends on how it is handled</title>
	<author>Sycraft-fu</author>
	<datestamp>1261338960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the manager is staying so they can micromanage, then no it isn't useful. If they are continually hovering over the shoulders of their people and yelling at them for not working faster, then it'll be a detriment.</p><p>However, it can be useful. In part it shows solidarity. The manager is saying "I'm not better than you, I don't get to go home just because of who I am. We ALL stay here until it is finished." Also if they do a good job of staying hands off, but being there to solve problems. Anything comes up that is out of the responsibility of the dev staff, they handle it. Plus things like ordering food can go a long way too. They can't add to the development, but they'll make sure that any non-dev stuff is taken care of.</p><p>So it all depends on the personality of the manager and how they relate to the team. It is a case where the manager needs to know themselves and understand what is best. If they are the kind that just can't help but hover in stressful situations, then get out and go home. Your team will be better off. However if you can sit back and let your people handle it, and just be there as a symbol more or less, then yes stay around, it helps.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the manager is staying so they can micromanage , then no it is n't useful .
If they are continually hovering over the shoulders of their people and yelling at them for not working faster , then it 'll be a detriment.However , it can be useful .
In part it shows solidarity .
The manager is saying " I 'm not better than you , I do n't get to go home just because of who I am .
We ALL stay here until it is finished .
" Also if they do a good job of staying hands off , but being there to solve problems .
Anything comes up that is out of the responsibility of the dev staff , they handle it .
Plus things like ordering food can go a long way too .
They ca n't add to the development , but they 'll make sure that any non-dev stuff is taken care of.So it all depends on the personality of the manager and how they relate to the team .
It is a case where the manager needs to know themselves and understand what is best .
If they are the kind that just ca n't help but hover in stressful situations , then get out and go home .
Your team will be better off .
However if you can sit back and let your people handle it , and just be there as a symbol more or less , then yes stay around , it helps .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the manager is staying so they can micromanage, then no it isn't useful.
If they are continually hovering over the shoulders of their people and yelling at them for not working faster, then it'll be a detriment.However, it can be useful.
In part it shows solidarity.
The manager is saying "I'm not better than you, I don't get to go home just because of who I am.
We ALL stay here until it is finished.
" Also if they do a good job of staying hands off, but being there to solve problems.
Anything comes up that is out of the responsibility of the dev staff, they handle it.
Plus things like ordering food can go a long way too.
They can't add to the development, but they'll make sure that any non-dev stuff is taken care of.So it all depends on the personality of the manager and how they relate to the team.
It is a case where the manager needs to know themselves and understand what is best.
If they are the kind that just can't help but hover in stressful situations, then get out and go home.
Your team will be better off.
However if you can sit back and let your people handle it, and just be there as a symbol more or less, then yes stay around, it helps.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507328</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>SharpFang</author>
	<datestamp>1261309860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Decisions.</p><p>When a programmer can do something two or more ways, with both ways having their advantages. The boss should have the image of the whole system in his head and see the load put on given component and its requirements. So I know I have to push incoming elements through a FIFO while filtering them on the way through an external function. I know how to do this, I know 10 ways how to do this. Now how fast will the elements arrive? how fast is the external function? how much resources do we have at our disposal? is queue overflow acceptable? and so on. This decides upon choice of the algorithm. Make it simple (simple static lists), make it failsafe (unlimited queue depth), make it fast (chase pointers), make it memory-conservative (outsource buffers to external caches) - these are decisions I expect from my boss, and to be made pretty fast.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Decisions.When a programmer can do something two or more ways , with both ways having their advantages .
The boss should have the image of the whole system in his head and see the load put on given component and its requirements .
So I know I have to push incoming elements through a FIFO while filtering them on the way through an external function .
I know how to do this , I know 10 ways how to do this .
Now how fast will the elements arrive ?
how fast is the external function ?
how much resources do we have at our disposal ?
is queue overflow acceptable ?
and so on .
This decides upon choice of the algorithm .
Make it simple ( simple static lists ) , make it failsafe ( unlimited queue depth ) , make it fast ( chase pointers ) , make it memory-conservative ( outsource buffers to external caches ) - these are decisions I expect from my boss , and to be made pretty fast .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Decisions.When a programmer can do something two or more ways, with both ways having their advantages.
The boss should have the image of the whole system in his head and see the load put on given component and its requirements.
So I know I have to push incoming elements through a FIFO while filtering them on the way through an external function.
I know how to do this, I know 10 ways how to do this.
Now how fast will the elements arrive?
how fast is the external function?
how much resources do we have at our disposal?
is queue overflow acceptable?
and so on.
This decides upon choice of the algorithm.
Make it simple (simple static lists), make it failsafe (unlimited queue depth), make it fast (chase pointers), make it memory-conservative (outsource buffers to external caches) - these are decisions I expect from my boss, and to be made pretty fast.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506350</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>nurb432</author>
	<datestamp>1261301520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yep, i agree 100\%. A manager should never ask his people to do what he isn't willing to do himself.  He should provide direction, help facilitate, directly assist when needed,  but mostly stay out of the way. If he has to 'babysit' his employees, then there are other issues at hand that need to be dealt with.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yep , i agree 100 \ % .
A manager should never ask his people to do what he is n't willing to do himself .
He should provide direction , help facilitate , directly assist when needed , but mostly stay out of the way .
If he has to 'babysit ' his employees , then there are other issues at hand that need to be dealt with .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yep, i agree 100\%.
A manager should never ask his people to do what he isn't willing to do himself.
He should provide direction, help facilitate, directly assist when needed,  but mostly stay out of the way.
If he has to 'babysit' his employees, then there are other issues at hand that need to be dealt with.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505756</id>
	<title>Should inmates run the asylum?</title>
	<author>unassimilatible</author>
	<datestamp>1261339860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>That seems to be the gist of this article.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That seems to be the gist of this article .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That seems to be the gist of this article.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506680</id>
	<title>You guys work cheap</title>
	<author>rcharbon</author>
	<datestamp>1261304340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's amazing how many of you will sell out your free time for a little pizza and soda.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's amazing how many of you will sell out your free time for a little pizza and soda .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's amazing how many of you will sell out your free time for a little pizza and soda.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505730</id>
	<title>What is this...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261339800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... "work late" of which you speak?</p><p>I used to do that in my old developer job. I don't do it any more.</p><p>Salary = 40 hours/wk<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... PERIOD</p><p>If management wants to negotiate something, that's fine, I'm always ready to deal.<br>Short of this, I don't work over 40 unless it's a critical production issue and guaranteed comp time.</p><p>This may seem cold, but if the situation were reversed:<br>"Umm yeah, my daughter wants a new $FAD\_ITEM to impress her friends. Could you put an extra $100.00 in my paycheck? I'll bring you a $5 frozen pizza to take home to make up for it?"<br>Let's see how far anybody would get with that.</p><p>Reciprocity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... " work late " of which you speak ? I used to do that in my old developer job .
I do n't do it any more.Salary = 40 hours/wk ... PERIODIf management wants to negotiate something , that 's fine , I 'm always ready to deal.Short of this , I do n't work over 40 unless it 's a critical production issue and guaranteed comp time.This may seem cold , but if the situation were reversed : " Umm yeah , my daughter wants a new $ FAD \ _ITEM to impress her friends .
Could you put an extra $ 100.00 in my paycheck ?
I 'll bring you a $ 5 frozen pizza to take home to make up for it ?
" Let 's see how far anybody would get with that.Reciprocity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... "work late" of which you speak?I used to do that in my old developer job.
I don't do it any more.Salary = 40 hours/wk ... PERIODIf management wants to negotiate something, that's fine, I'm always ready to deal.Short of this, I don't work over 40 unless it's a critical production issue and guaranteed comp time.This may seem cold, but if the situation were reversed:"Umm yeah, my daughter wants a new $FAD\_ITEM to impress her friends.
Could you put an extra $100.00 in my paycheck?
I'll bring you a $5 frozen pizza to take home to make up for it?
"Let's see how far anybody would get with that.Reciprocity.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30535634</id>
	<title>Patton approach</title>
	<author>geek2k5</author>
	<datestamp>1259772120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I believe Patton had a similar approach.  He would set the objectives and let his commanders handle the details.  If there were problems holding things up, he would personally survey the situation and make suggestions.</p><p>There is a book titled "Patton on Leadership" that gives a lot of examples of his management style.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I believe Patton had a similar approach .
He would set the objectives and let his commanders handle the details .
If there were problems holding things up , he would personally survey the situation and make suggestions.There is a book titled " Patton on Leadership " that gives a lot of examples of his management style .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I believe Patton had a similar approach.
He would set the objectives and let his commanders handle the details.
If there were problems holding things up, he would personally survey the situation and make suggestions.There is a book titled "Patton on Leadership" that gives a lot of examples of his management style.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506796</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505688</id>
	<title>Yes.</title>
	<author>4iedBandit</author>
	<datestamp>1261339440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't develop.  I sysadmin. Recently I was asked to build out 15 new servers.  At 5:30pm.  It was an emergency and had to be done ASAP, oddly enough because the coders wrote a crappy code release that required a threefold increase in horsepower just to handle the normal load and the companies QA process never picked up on this highly important fact and the code was pushed to production where it ground things to a standstill.  I know the company isn't going to do squat for me.  I don't get overtime.  I won't get a bonus.  I won't get comp time.</p><p>For my managers manager to stay the night was a show of solidarity.  He doesn't know how to build the systems, but at least he was there.  Now the important thing is that he wasn't watching over my shoulder every step of the way.  He'd ask for updates every couple of hours and he went out and brought me dinner so I could stay working, but otherwise stayed out of the way and let me do the work.</p><p>Psychologically it helped to know that he also missed playing with his kids and putting them to bed that night.  Sometimes inspiring your employees is as simple as demonstrating that you share their pain, even if you can't share the workload.</p><p>Now if this behavior becomes the norm, it doesn't matter what management does.  People will soon be burnt out and will leave.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't develop .
I sysadmin .
Recently I was asked to build out 15 new servers .
At 5 : 30pm .
It was an emergency and had to be done ASAP , oddly enough because the coders wrote a crappy code release that required a threefold increase in horsepower just to handle the normal load and the companies QA process never picked up on this highly important fact and the code was pushed to production where it ground things to a standstill .
I know the company is n't going to do squat for me .
I do n't get overtime .
I wo n't get a bonus .
I wo n't get comp time.For my managers manager to stay the night was a show of solidarity .
He does n't know how to build the systems , but at least he was there .
Now the important thing is that he was n't watching over my shoulder every step of the way .
He 'd ask for updates every couple of hours and he went out and brought me dinner so I could stay working , but otherwise stayed out of the way and let me do the work.Psychologically it helped to know that he also missed playing with his kids and putting them to bed that night .
Sometimes inspiring your employees is as simple as demonstrating that you share their pain , even if you ca n't share the workload.Now if this behavior becomes the norm , it does n't matter what management does .
People will soon be burnt out and will leave .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't develop.
I sysadmin.
Recently I was asked to build out 15 new servers.
At 5:30pm.
It was an emergency and had to be done ASAP, oddly enough because the coders wrote a crappy code release that required a threefold increase in horsepower just to handle the normal load and the companies QA process never picked up on this highly important fact and the code was pushed to production where it ground things to a standstill.
I know the company isn't going to do squat for me.
I don't get overtime.
I won't get a bonus.
I won't get comp time.For my managers manager to stay the night was a show of solidarity.
He doesn't know how to build the systems, but at least he was there.
Now the important thing is that he wasn't watching over my shoulder every step of the way.
He'd ask for updates every couple of hours and he went out and brought me dinner so I could stay working, but otherwise stayed out of the way and let me do the work.Psychologically it helped to know that he also missed playing with his kids and putting them to bed that night.
Sometimes inspiring your employees is as simple as demonstrating that you share their pain, even if you can't share the workload.Now if this behavior becomes the norm, it doesn't matter what management does.
People will soon be burnt out and will leave.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507494</id>
	<title>Re:Yes</title>
	<author>kharchenko</author>
	<datestamp>1261311600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"<i>slow-oven-cooked steak</i>"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... I was all in agreement, up until the part where you propose to ruin a nice juicy steak by slow-cooking it. Blasphemy!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" slow-oven-cooked steak " ... I was all in agreement , up until the part where you propose to ruin a nice juicy steak by slow-cooking it .
Blasphemy !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"slow-oven-cooked steak" ... I was all in agreement, up until the part where you propose to ruin a nice juicy steak by slow-cooking it.
Blasphemy!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506796</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>michael\_cain</author>
	<datestamp>1261305540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I recall a question used (many years ago) on some OCS exams. A detailed list of available materials was supplied, along with a sketch of the terrain surrounding a portion of a stream. The question was "How would you build a bridge capable of carrying jeeps across this stream?"  The correct answer was "Sergeant, take these men and this pile of stuff and build a bridge across this stream. I'll be back in three hours." Some incorrect answers did get people into various specialist training programs.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I recall a question used ( many years ago ) on some OCS exams .
A detailed list of available materials was supplied , along with a sketch of the terrain surrounding a portion of a stream .
The question was " How would you build a bridge capable of carrying jeeps across this stream ?
" The correct answer was " Sergeant , take these men and this pile of stuff and build a bridge across this stream .
I 'll be back in three hours .
" Some incorrect answers did get people into various specialist training programs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I recall a question used (many years ago) on some OCS exams.
A detailed list of available materials was supplied, along with a sketch of the terrain surrounding a portion of a stream.
The question was "How would you build a bridge capable of carrying jeeps across this stream?
"  The correct answer was "Sergeant, take these men and this pile of stuff and build a bridge across this stream.
I'll be back in three hours.
" Some incorrect answers did get people into various specialist training programs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506056</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507524</id>
	<title>As an aside...</title>
	<author>MooUK</author>
	<datestamp>1261311960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not even vaguely in general direction of development. Nevertheless...</p><p>I get paid overtime pay at a fairly decent rate, for even as little as fifteen minutes extra. My supervisor and manager, however, do not. One of my colleagues was whining to me that the manager never stays on overtime but instead asks the rest of us to do so. To me, it seems an obvious choice: he doesn't get paid or get time in lieu, usually, so why should he stay when one of us can get paid extra to do so instead? My colleague for some reason wouldn't accept this, and I couldn't understand his reasoning.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not even vaguely in general direction of development .
Nevertheless...I get paid overtime pay at a fairly decent rate , for even as little as fifteen minutes extra .
My supervisor and manager , however , do not .
One of my colleagues was whining to me that the manager never stays on overtime but instead asks the rest of us to do so .
To me , it seems an obvious choice : he does n't get paid or get time in lieu , usually , so why should he stay when one of us can get paid extra to do so instead ?
My colleague for some reason would n't accept this , and I could n't understand his reasoning .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not even vaguely in general direction of development.
Nevertheless...I get paid overtime pay at a fairly decent rate, for even as little as fifteen minutes extra.
My supervisor and manager, however, do not.
One of my colleagues was whining to me that the manager never stays on overtime but instead asks the rest of us to do so.
To me, it seems an obvious choice: he doesn't get paid or get time in lieu, usually, so why should he stay when one of us can get paid extra to do so instead?
My colleague for some reason wouldn't accept this, and I couldn't understand his reasoning.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506712</id>
	<title>Why is everybody expecting pizza?</title>
	<author>TejWC</author>
	<datestamp>1261304820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why is everybody here in slashdot expecting pizza? Whenever I worked overtime, the manager would either get us Subway or Chipotle. Pizza may be very cheap and easy to order; but, if your manager is willing to go the extra mile and take each persons' individual order; then it is so much better! Most managers can't do too much in an overtime night so they tend not to mind getting each person's order.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is everybody here in slashdot expecting pizza ?
Whenever I worked overtime , the manager would either get us Subway or Chipotle .
Pizza may be very cheap and easy to order ; but , if your manager is willing to go the extra mile and take each persons ' individual order ; then it is so much better !
Most managers ca n't do too much in an overtime night so they tend not to mind getting each person 's order .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is everybody here in slashdot expecting pizza?
Whenever I worked overtime, the manager would either get us Subway or Chipotle.
Pizza may be very cheap and easy to order; but, if your manager is willing to go the extra mile and take each persons' individual order; then it is so much better!
Most managers can't do too much in an overtime night so they tend not to mind getting each person's order.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30508910</id>
	<title>a good quality any boss should possess</title>
	<author>nerdyalien</author>
	<datestamp>1261329120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In my opinion, I believe this is a good quality any boss should possess.</p><p>I used to work in an IT service company with a group of engineers. Every morning, Senior Engineer (my boss) briefs and delegate tasks. Then he visits every work site and check whether we have issues and our well-being. If it is a grave yard-shift, at least he will spend the first hour with us. If he is not around, he will take calls at any time and give any support he could. Essentially what he does is, kick start the work and empower us to finish it.</p><p>What I feel is, if someone is breaking sweat for me, it is my duty to support them. At least stay connected through IM, email or mobile. After all, without co-workers, we are nothing!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In my opinion , I believe this is a good quality any boss should possess.I used to work in an IT service company with a group of engineers .
Every morning , Senior Engineer ( my boss ) briefs and delegate tasks .
Then he visits every work site and check whether we have issues and our well-being .
If it is a grave yard-shift , at least he will spend the first hour with us .
If he is not around , he will take calls at any time and give any support he could .
Essentially what he does is , kick start the work and empower us to finish it.What I feel is , if someone is breaking sweat for me , it is my duty to support them .
At least stay connected through IM , email or mobile .
After all , without co-workers , we are nothing !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my opinion, I believe this is a good quality any boss should possess.I used to work in an IT service company with a group of engineers.
Every morning, Senior Engineer (my boss) briefs and delegate tasks.
Then he visits every work site and check whether we have issues and our well-being.
If it is a grave yard-shift, at least he will spend the first hour with us.
If he is not around, he will take calls at any time and give any support he could.
Essentially what he does is, kick start the work and empower us to finish it.What I feel is, if someone is breaking sweat for me, it is my duty to support them.
At least stay connected through IM, email or mobile.
After all, without co-workers, we are nothing!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506158</id>
	<title>Re:Yes.</title>
	<author>barzok</author>
	<datestamp>1261299780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Psychologically it helped to know that he also missed playing with his kids and putting them to bed that night. Sometimes inspiring your employees is as simple as demonstrating that you share their pain, even if you can't share the workload.</p></div></blockquote><p>Maybe it's just because my own kids are so young, but I think I would have told my manager "go home, put the kids to bed, then come back with food for me." I <em>hate</em> missing bedtime.</p><p>Plus it'd give a couple hours of quiet time at the office.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Psychologically it helped to know that he also missed playing with his kids and putting them to bed that night .
Sometimes inspiring your employees is as simple as demonstrating that you share their pain , even if you ca n't share the workload.Maybe it 's just because my own kids are so young , but I think I would have told my manager " go home , put the kids to bed , then come back with food for me .
" I hate missing bedtime.Plus it 'd give a couple hours of quiet time at the office .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Psychologically it helped to know that he also missed playing with his kids and putting them to bed that night.
Sometimes inspiring your employees is as simple as demonstrating that you share their pain, even if you can't share the workload.Maybe it's just because my own kids are so young, but I think I would have told my manager "go home, put the kids to bed, then come back with food for me.
" I hate missing bedtime.Plus it'd give a couple hours of quiet time at the office.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30510490</id>
	<title>Re:Yes</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261395660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Fruit juice, smoothies and tea FTW!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-D</p><p>Much better fuel for the brain engine than coffee*</p><p>* after the withdrawal symptoms are gone. this took me, luckily, just a day or 2... haven't had coffee in 3 years and each morning I'm more awake than my colleagues who "/need/ coffee to wake up"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Fruit juice , smoothies and tea FTW !
: -DMuch better fuel for the brain engine than coffee * * after the withdrawal symptoms are gone .
this took me , luckily , just a day or 2... have n't had coffee in 3 years and each morning I 'm more awake than my colleagues who " /need/ coffee to wake up "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fruit juice, smoothies and tea FTW!
:-DMuch better fuel for the brain engine than coffee** after the withdrawal symptoms are gone.
this took me, luckily, just a day or 2... haven't had coffee in 3 years and each morning I'm more awake than my colleagues who "/need/ coffee to wake up"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507534</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>bxbaser</author>
	<datestamp>1261312080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"'I'd pick up a book on the programming language they're using to code.Even if you never put your fingers to the keyboard, it will gain you credibility, which will make you, as a manager, a thousand times more effective."</p><p>Only thing worse than a manager that doesnt know anything is a manager that has read a book on the programming language your using to code</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" 'I 'd pick up a book on the programming language they 're using to code.Even if you never put your fingers to the keyboard , it will gain you credibility , which will make you , as a manager , a thousand times more effective .
" Only thing worse than a manager that doesnt know anything is a manager that has read a book on the programming language your using to code</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"'I'd pick up a book on the programming language they're using to code.Even if you never put your fingers to the keyboard, it will gain you credibility, which will make you, as a manager, a thousand times more effective.
"Only thing worse than a manager that doesnt know anything is a manager that has read a book on the programming language your using to code</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505744</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507772</id>
	<title>For support, mostly.</title>
	<author>goathumper</author>
	<datestamp>1261314840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've always been of the mentality that one should never ask of others what one isn't willing to do oneself.  However, if you're a manager you're not coding anymore - you're now relegated to a support role, really.  And I don't mean moral/emotional.  I've been on both sides of the issue and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the devs will look upon you sharing the all-nighter with some suspicion at first.  But if you're smart, stay out of their way, and simply devote yourself to being their lackey with the little things so that they don't have to get distracted with them they'll appreciate it.<p>
Brew fresh coffee.  Take care of the food orders (and maybe go for special pick-up as a treat).  Make sure anything that hinders their smooth progress is handled by you.  Noise? Go deal with it.  Something not where it should be and makes their life harder?  Chase it like a rabbid dog and solve it.  The best way to ensure their success (and thus cover your ass, if that's your persuasion) is to, precisely, do whatever you can to remove the obstacles to that success.</p><p>
But heed the warning: if you're staying just so you can keep an eye on them, you're making a huge mistake.  If you don't trust them in overtime, then you have no reason to trust them in normal work hours, and your problem is something much bigger and uglier.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've always been of the mentality that one should never ask of others what one is n't willing to do oneself .
However , if you 're a manager you 're not coding anymore - you 're now relegated to a support role , really .
And I do n't mean moral/emotional .
I 've been on both sides of the issue and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the devs will look upon you sharing the all-nighter with some suspicion at first .
But if you 're smart , stay out of their way , and simply devote yourself to being their lackey with the little things so that they do n't have to get distracted with them they 'll appreciate it .
Brew fresh coffee .
Take care of the food orders ( and maybe go for special pick-up as a treat ) .
Make sure anything that hinders their smooth progress is handled by you .
Noise ? Go deal with it .
Something not where it should be and makes their life harder ?
Chase it like a rabbid dog and solve it .
The best way to ensure their success ( and thus cover your ass , if that 's your persuasion ) is to , precisely , do whatever you can to remove the obstacles to that success .
But heed the warning : if you 're staying just so you can keep an eye on them , you 're making a huge mistake .
If you do n't trust them in overtime , then you have no reason to trust them in normal work hours , and your problem is something much bigger and uglier .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've always been of the mentality that one should never ask of others what one isn't willing to do oneself.
However, if you're a manager you're not coding anymore - you're now relegated to a support role, really.
And I don't mean moral/emotional.
I've been on both sides of the issue and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the devs will look upon you sharing the all-nighter with some suspicion at first.
But if you're smart, stay out of their way, and simply devote yourself to being their lackey with the little things so that they don't have to get distracted with them they'll appreciate it.
Brew fresh coffee.
Take care of the food orders (and maybe go for special pick-up as a treat).
Make sure anything that hinders their smooth progress is handled by you.
Noise? Go deal with it.
Something not where it should be and makes their life harder?
Chase it like a rabbid dog and solve it.
The best way to ensure their success (and thus cover your ass, if that's your persuasion) is to, precisely, do whatever you can to remove the obstacles to that success.
But heed the warning: if you're staying just so you can keep an eye on them, you're making a huge mistake.
If you don't trust them in overtime, then you have no reason to trust them in normal work hours, and your problem is something much bigger and uglier.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506722</id>
	<title>Re:Only if...</title>
	<author>dbcad7</author>
	<datestamp>1261304880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Spilled milk.. Worrying about things like whose fault something is, is a pointless waste of energy. I would say it's always your own fault, because everything that happened in your life prior to that moment, led to you working for that company at that moment. If asked to work overtime, you have two choices, do it or not.. If you do it, it's your choice, so your fault. Resenting and analyzing others decisions and actions that result in a situation that requires working overtime, doesn't take away from the fact that it is your choice to work it. If your life situation is such that you have to work it, or starve, again all the choices you have made prior to then are yours, and whose fault is that ?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Spilled milk.. Worrying about things like whose fault something is , is a pointless waste of energy .
I would say it 's always your own fault , because everything that happened in your life prior to that moment , led to you working for that company at that moment .
If asked to work overtime , you have two choices , do it or not.. If you do it , it 's your choice , so your fault .
Resenting and analyzing others decisions and actions that result in a situation that requires working overtime , does n't take away from the fact that it is your choice to work it .
If your life situation is such that you have to work it , or starve , again all the choices you have made prior to then are yours , and whose fault is that ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Spilled milk.. Worrying about things like whose fault something is, is a pointless waste of energy.
I would say it's always your own fault, because everything that happened in your life prior to that moment, led to you working for that company at that moment.
If asked to work overtime, you have two choices, do it or not.. If you do it, it's your choice, so your fault.
Resenting and analyzing others decisions and actions that result in a situation that requires working overtime, doesn't take away from the fact that it is your choice to work it.
If your life situation is such that you have to work it, or starve, again all the choices you have made prior to then are yours, and whose fault is that ?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505632</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505612</id>
	<title>Yes, but...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261338840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The function of a manager is to manage, not micro-manage.</p><p>There will be times that questions arise that need management input. Not often, but sometimes. When those arise, it is extremely irritating to have no manager present. However, that does not mean hovering over the developers' shoulders and adding to the pressure. Arrange pizza, yes. But apart from that, stay resolutely in the background, available to answer questions, but leaving the devs to their own devices.</p><p>I'd actually refer back to Robert Heinlein on this one. In <i>Starship Troopers</i> (the novel, not the wretched film) Lt. Rico, just after he gets his pips, is told by his CO that his wandering through the crew quarters is simply putting his men on edge. He should go back to his quarters, and when it was time to act, his sergeant would have his men ready for action.</p><p>I'd suggest that you do likewise, even to the extent of perhaps taking on some small, tedious task to take it off the plate of some dev, and keep yourself busy while you wait for the questions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The function of a manager is to manage , not micro-manage.There will be times that questions arise that need management input .
Not often , but sometimes .
When those arise , it is extremely irritating to have no manager present .
However , that does not mean hovering over the developers ' shoulders and adding to the pressure .
Arrange pizza , yes .
But apart from that , stay resolutely in the background , available to answer questions , but leaving the devs to their own devices.I 'd actually refer back to Robert Heinlein on this one .
In Starship Troopers ( the novel , not the wretched film ) Lt. Rico , just after he gets his pips , is told by his CO that his wandering through the crew quarters is simply putting his men on edge .
He should go back to his quarters , and when it was time to act , his sergeant would have his men ready for action.I 'd suggest that you do likewise , even to the extent of perhaps taking on some small , tedious task to take it off the plate of some dev , and keep yourself busy while you wait for the questions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The function of a manager is to manage, not micro-manage.There will be times that questions arise that need management input.
Not often, but sometimes.
When those arise, it is extremely irritating to have no manager present.
However, that does not mean hovering over the developers' shoulders and adding to the pressure.
Arrange pizza, yes.
But apart from that, stay resolutely in the background, available to answer questions, but leaving the devs to their own devices.I'd actually refer back to Robert Heinlein on this one.
In Starship Troopers (the novel, not the wretched film) Lt. Rico, just after he gets his pips, is told by his CO that his wandering through the crew quarters is simply putting his men on edge.
He should go back to his quarters, and when it was time to act, his sergeant would have his men ready for action.I'd suggest that you do likewise, even to the extent of perhaps taking on some small, tedious task to take it off the plate of some dev, and keep yourself busy while you wait for the questions.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506164</id>
	<title>Re:Yes.</title>
	<author>Murdoch5</author>
	<datestamp>1261299840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Your write on the fact they should share your pain.  If I were you I'd report the developers of that code to who ever you need to in order for it to be fixed.   If the coding is done poorly then it should be redone to make to right and if making it right means staying the night then the manager should stay with out question because if he was responsible and checked the code in the first place no one would be there.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Your write on the fact they should share your pain .
If I were you I 'd report the developers of that code to who ever you need to in order for it to be fixed .
If the coding is done poorly then it should be redone to make to right and if making it right means staying the night then the manager should stay with out question because if he was responsible and checked the code in the first place no one would be there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your write on the fact they should share your pain.
If I were you I'd report the developers of that code to who ever you need to in order for it to be fixed.
If the coding is done poorly then it should be redone to make to right and if making it right means staying the night then the manager should stay with out question because if he was responsible and checked the code in the first place no one would be there.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30508746</id>
	<title>No cookie cutter solution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261327140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lot of "always do this" type responses here. For me this is pretty situational. Often I stay behind and bring dinner and beer. I do usually try to be there for most of the time, but not always. For me there are a variety of possibilities, and I use one or several, or occasionally none, depending on a lot of things. Some examples:</p><p>* making sure time in lieu is available, and cutting through red tape around it<br>* showing flexibility around working conditions, leave requests, etc<br>* making sure that people get recognition for special effort<br>* remembering \_specific\_ examples and making sure they form part of reviews and remuneration and bonus decisions<br>* making it clear that career progression is not a random event<br>* making sure that the most committed get the most interesting and challenging technical work<br>* making it clear that I will carry !00\% of the blame on (reasonable) fuck ups for the guys who put in the work for the team<br>* creating a good team culture, I was a developer and I always worked harder to make sure we were on track as a team and I wasn't holding up someone else than I did for a PHB</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lot of " always do this " type responses here .
For me this is pretty situational .
Often I stay behind and bring dinner and beer .
I do usually try to be there for most of the time , but not always .
For me there are a variety of possibilities , and I use one or several , or occasionally none , depending on a lot of things .
Some examples : * making sure time in lieu is available , and cutting through red tape around it * showing flexibility around working conditions , leave requests , etc * making sure that people get recognition for special effort * remembering \ _specific \ _ examples and making sure they form part of reviews and remuneration and bonus decisions * making it clear that career progression is not a random event * making sure that the most committed get the most interesting and challenging technical work * making it clear that I will carry ! 00 \ % of the blame on ( reasonable ) fuck ups for the guys who put in the work for the team * creating a good team culture , I was a developer and I always worked harder to make sure we were on track as a team and I was n't holding up someone else than I did for a PHB</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lot of "always do this" type responses here.
For me this is pretty situational.
Often I stay behind and bring dinner and beer.
I do usually try to be there for most of the time, but not always.
For me there are a variety of possibilities, and I use one or several, or occasionally none, depending on a lot of things.
Some examples:* making sure time in lieu is available, and cutting through red tape around it* showing flexibility around working conditions, leave requests, etc* making sure that people get recognition for special effort* remembering \_specific\_ examples and making sure they form part of reviews and remuneration and bonus decisions* making it clear that career progression is not a random event* making sure that the most committed get the most interesting and challenging technical work* making it clear that I will carry !00\% of the blame on (reasonable) fuck ups for the guys who put in the work for the team* creating a good team culture, I was a developer and I always worked harder to make sure we were on track as a team and I wasn't holding up someone else than I did for a PHB</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505760</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261339920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In tech dev't work there's always trade-offs we encounter; like "what users are afffected by xyz if we need to skip it in this release?"  Enlightened management (no, that's not an oxymoron) CAN answer questions like that, where the techie's haven't any way of answering.  Stay with the troops, man.  And if you gotta leave, they need to know they can/shd contact you when needed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In tech dev't work there 's always trade-offs we encounter ; like " what users are afffected by xyz if we need to skip it in this release ?
" Enlightened management ( no , that 's not an oxymoron ) CAN answer questions like that , where the techie 's have n't any way of answering .
Stay with the troops , man .
And if you got ta leave , they need to know they can/shd contact you when needed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In tech dev't work there's always trade-offs we encounter; like "what users are afffected by xyz if we need to skip it in this release?
"  Enlightened management (no, that's not an oxymoron) CAN answer questions like that, where the techie's haven't any way of answering.
Stay with the troops, man.
And if you gotta leave, they need to know they can/shd contact you when needed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506916</id>
	<title>Re:Yes</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261306620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I mean this in the nicest way possible, but if I had to work late and I found out that you got our pizza, mountain dew, and coffee replaced with a salad... well... bad things might happen<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P</htmltext>
<tokenext>I mean this in the nicest way possible , but if I had to work late and I found out that you got our pizza , mountain dew , and coffee replaced with a salad... well... bad things might happen : P</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I mean this in the nicest way possible, but if I had to work late and I found out that you got our pizza, mountain dew, and coffee replaced with a salad... well... bad things might happen :P</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507882</id>
	<title>Staying Late is Managements Fault</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261316460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Its quite common, in the corporate world, to find oneself thrown into the fire, and being forced to put it out. But 99 out of 100 times, its management who started the fire, and threw you in it, and this is one of the major reasons that I dropped out of the corporate world.</p><p>Lets look at the common scenario. Big project. Big client. Everythings super important, even tho last weeks project was just as super important, for just as big a client. Management promised the world in 2 days, to a client that needs the project whether it takes 2 days or 3 days or 4 weeks, they still need the job done. Its only because management and sales are telling people ANYTHING to make the deal, do these fires start, and the developers are asked to work overtime, stay late, miss their kids birthday party, not have sex with their wife, who runs off and cheats with the pool boy, etc. in a futile attempt to make up for the fact that management HAS NO STANDARDIZED PROCESS FOR MAKING TIMELINE PROJECTIONS.</p><p>So, I say, tell management to finish it. Tell management to make sales finish it.</p><p>Stop being the fall guy for sales and managements sunshine packing bullshit process.</p><p>If you continueally "go the extra mile"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... they will continually make promises that require you to go 2 extra miles.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Its quite common , in the corporate world , to find oneself thrown into the fire , and being forced to put it out .
But 99 out of 100 times , its management who started the fire , and threw you in it , and this is one of the major reasons that I dropped out of the corporate world.Lets look at the common scenario .
Big project .
Big client .
Everythings super important , even tho last weeks project was just as super important , for just as big a client .
Management promised the world in 2 days , to a client that needs the project whether it takes 2 days or 3 days or 4 weeks , they still need the job done .
Its only because management and sales are telling people ANYTHING to make the deal , do these fires start , and the developers are asked to work overtime , stay late , miss their kids birthday party , not have sex with their wife , who runs off and cheats with the pool boy , etc .
in a futile attempt to make up for the fact that management HAS NO STANDARDIZED PROCESS FOR MAKING TIMELINE PROJECTIONS.So , I say , tell management to finish it .
Tell management to make sales finish it.Stop being the fall guy for sales and managements sunshine packing bullshit process.If you continueally " go the extra mile " ... they will continually make promises that require you to go 2 extra miles .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Its quite common, in the corporate world, to find oneself thrown into the fire, and being forced to put it out.
But 99 out of 100 times, its management who started the fire, and threw you in it, and this is one of the major reasons that I dropped out of the corporate world.Lets look at the common scenario.
Big project.
Big client.
Everythings super important, even tho last weeks project was just as super important, for just as big a client.
Management promised the world in 2 days, to a client that needs the project whether it takes 2 days or 3 days or 4 weeks, they still need the job done.
Its only because management and sales are telling people ANYTHING to make the deal, do these fires start, and the developers are asked to work overtime, stay late, miss their kids birthday party, not have sex with their wife, who runs off and cheats with the pool boy, etc.
in a futile attempt to make up for the fact that management HAS NO STANDARDIZED PROCESS FOR MAKING TIMELINE PROJECTIONS.So, I say, tell management to finish it.
Tell management to make sales finish it.Stop being the fall guy for sales and managements sunshine packing bullshit process.If you continueally "go the extra mile" ... they will continually make promises that require you to go 2 extra miles.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506490</id>
	<title>Re:Yes.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261302600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You don't report developers, you report bugs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do n't report developers , you report bugs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You don't report developers, you report bugs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506164</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506188</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261300020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is the manager's job to make his workers as productive as possible.  If that means staying late and bringing in edibles/drinks - if that means running an errand they needed to run, if that means keeping shit from upper management out of the way<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... then that's what you do.</p><p>At least that's how I always approached it... my employees were always very loyal.  Sometimes my superiors hated me.... so it goes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is the manager 's job to make his workers as productive as possible .
If that means staying late and bringing in edibles/drinks - if that means running an errand they needed to run , if that means keeping shit from upper management out of the way ... then that 's what you do.At least that 's how I always approached it... my employees were always very loyal .
Sometimes my superiors hated me.... so it goes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is the manager's job to make his workers as productive as possible.
If that means staying late and bringing in edibles/drinks - if that means running an errand they needed to run, if that means keeping shit from upper management out of the way ... then that's what you do.At least that's how I always approached it... my employees were always very loyal.
Sometimes my superiors hated me.... so it goes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507036</id>
	<title>Been a boss, had different bosses</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261307400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At my first real job, there was a manager who never left work during deadlines until the last developer did.  For him, it was a point of honor. He really meant it as - if you're busting your ass for the company, he shouldn't be home watching tube. Other than that, he was a waste of skin, water and oxygen.</p><p>Years later, I was a boss.  I didn't stay late unless I actually had something to do - which was most days. 70+ hour work weeks were common.  My job was to:<br>- Help set realistic schedules that could be met without killing ourselves<br>- Run interference from upper management<br>- Get the highest raises possible for my team<br>- Get promotions for my team<br>- Take all blame for any failures in our work<br>- Pass on credit to the team and individuals</p><p>Behaving like this leads to teams who work well together and look out for each other. Any of my former teams will help me whenever they can too.  My managers hated that I wouldn't give up "who" cause every issue, but that wasn't needed. Inside the team, it never needed to be said, everyone knew who did.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At my first real job , there was a manager who never left work during deadlines until the last developer did .
For him , it was a point of honor .
He really meant it as - if you 're busting your ass for the company , he should n't be home watching tube .
Other than that , he was a waste of skin , water and oxygen.Years later , I was a boss .
I did n't stay late unless I actually had something to do - which was most days .
70 + hour work weeks were common .
My job was to : - Help set realistic schedules that could be met without killing ourselves- Run interference from upper management- Get the highest raises possible for my team- Get promotions for my team- Take all blame for any failures in our work- Pass on credit to the team and individualsBehaving like this leads to teams who work well together and look out for each other .
Any of my former teams will help me whenever they can too .
My managers hated that I would n't give up " who " cause every issue , but that was n't needed .
Inside the team , it never needed to be said , everyone knew who did .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At my first real job, there was a manager who never left work during deadlines until the last developer did.
For him, it was a point of honor.
He really meant it as - if you're busting your ass for the company, he shouldn't be home watching tube.
Other than that, he was a waste of skin, water and oxygen.Years later, I was a boss.
I didn't stay late unless I actually had something to do - which was most days.
70+ hour work weeks were common.
My job was to:- Help set realistic schedules that could be met without killing ourselves- Run interference from upper management- Get the highest raises possible for my team- Get promotions for my team- Take all blame for any failures in our work- Pass on credit to the team and individualsBehaving like this leads to teams who work well together and look out for each other.
Any of my former teams will help me whenever they can too.
My managers hated that I wouldn't give up "who" cause every issue, but that wasn't needed.
Inside the team, it never needed to be said, everyone knew who did.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506240</id>
	<title>This depends on your team's dynamics</title>
	<author>davidwr</author>
	<datestamp>1261300440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As with any "what's the best way to run a team" issue, this will largely depend on the personalities involved.</p><p>Whether you stay or not, buy them dinner.  Not once, but three times:  Once that night, once at the end of the project, and once in the form of a dinner-for-two gift card at a nice restaurant, as a thank-you.  After all, their spouses/significant others sacrificed as well.</p><p>Just make sure these dinners aren't in lieu of cash.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As with any " what 's the best way to run a team " issue , this will largely depend on the personalities involved.Whether you stay or not , buy them dinner .
Not once , but three times : Once that night , once at the end of the project , and once in the form of a dinner-for-two gift card at a nice restaurant , as a thank-you .
After all , their spouses/significant others sacrificed as well.Just make sure these dinners are n't in lieu of cash .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As with any "what's the best way to run a team" issue, this will largely depend on the personalities involved.Whether you stay or not, buy them dinner.
Not once, but three times:  Once that night, once at the end of the project, and once in the form of a dinner-for-two gift card at a nice restaurant, as a thank-you.
After all, their spouses/significant others sacrificed as well.Just make sure these dinners aren't in lieu of cash.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507204</id>
	<title>Re:Only if...</title>
	<author>wayland</author>
	<datestamp>1261308660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><tt>As a sysadmin/developer I only stayed really late once.&nbsp; The boss hung around because he had to inform the client (in a different country) when the work was done, and also in a supporting role.&nbsp; Great boss<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:).&nbsp; </tt></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a sysadmin/developer I only stayed really late once.   The boss hung around because he had to inform the client ( in a different country ) when the work was done , and also in a supporting role.   Great boss : ) .  </tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a sysadmin/developer I only stayed really late once.  The boss hung around because he had to inform the client (in a different country) when the work was done, and also in a supporting role.  Great boss :).  </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505632</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30509292</id>
	<title>Tea lady and red tape cutter</title>
	<author>adamkennedy</author>
	<datestamp>1261333500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Apart from the tea lady role, the other good thing about having management around is that when the shit is hitting the fan, at some point you are often going to need to do some rather unconventional and similarly scary things to fix it.</p><p>Having the manager a "Hey boss" yell away means you can at least get "approval" for whatever it is straight away. Now the plebs can't be scapegoated or blamed for solving it by doing something against policy. Granted, it would be nice if that wasn't needed, but the fact you CAN get approval for crazy things quickly means the people fixing the problem are less likely to hesitate due to fear for their own skin.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Apart from the tea lady role , the other good thing about having management around is that when the shit is hitting the fan , at some point you are often going to need to do some rather unconventional and similarly scary things to fix it.Having the manager a " Hey boss " yell away means you can at least get " approval " for whatever it is straight away .
Now the plebs ca n't be scapegoated or blamed for solving it by doing something against policy .
Granted , it would be nice if that was n't needed , but the fact you CAN get approval for crazy things quickly means the people fixing the problem are less likely to hesitate due to fear for their own skin .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Apart from the tea lady role, the other good thing about having management around is that when the shit is hitting the fan, at some point you are often going to need to do some rather unconventional and similarly scary things to fix it.Having the manager a "Hey boss" yell away means you can at least get "approval" for whatever it is straight away.
Now the plebs can't be scapegoated or blamed for solving it by doing something against policy.
Granted, it would be nice if that wasn't needed, but the fact you CAN get approval for crazy things quickly means the people fixing the problem are less likely to hesitate due to fear for their own skin.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506208</id>
	<title>Why is everyone staying late?</title>
	<author>dmomo</author>
	<datestamp>1261300080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A lot of posts here simplify the situation.  People are staying late because of the Manager, or people staying late because of crappy code.</p><p>In my experience, people always seem to stay late when there's a deadline.  It's just the way it works.  Because no matter how reasonable the deadline or how awesome the code, there's always more that can be squeezed in or improved at the 11th hour.</p><p>In practice, deadlines are always unreasonable and code is often crappy (or can be improved).  If we waited until things were perfect, nothing would ever go out.</p><p>So as far as the Management issue goes, do whatever it takes to make your team happy and productive.  Stay late for whatever reason so long as that reason is helpful to your team. Be ready to advocate that developers be compensated for putting in extra effort.</p><p>All in all, reading through these responses, it's clear who the biggest beneficiary is.  Pizza companies.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A lot of posts here simplify the situation .
People are staying late because of the Manager , or people staying late because of crappy code.In my experience , people always seem to stay late when there 's a deadline .
It 's just the way it works .
Because no matter how reasonable the deadline or how awesome the code , there 's always more that can be squeezed in or improved at the 11th hour.In practice , deadlines are always unreasonable and code is often crappy ( or can be improved ) .
If we waited until things were perfect , nothing would ever go out.So as far as the Management issue goes , do whatever it takes to make your team happy and productive .
Stay late for whatever reason so long as that reason is helpful to your team .
Be ready to advocate that developers be compensated for putting in extra effort.All in all , reading through these responses , it 's clear who the biggest beneficiary is .
Pizza companies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A lot of posts here simplify the situation.
People are staying late because of the Manager, or people staying late because of crappy code.In my experience, people always seem to stay late when there's a deadline.
It's just the way it works.
Because no matter how reasonable the deadline or how awesome the code, there's always more that can be squeezed in or improved at the 11th hour.In practice, deadlines are always unreasonable and code is often crappy (or can be improved).
If we waited until things were perfect, nothing would ever go out.So as far as the Management issue goes, do whatever it takes to make your team happy and productive.
Stay late for whatever reason so long as that reason is helpful to your team.
Be ready to advocate that developers be compensated for putting in extra effort.All in all, reading through these responses, it's clear who the biggest beneficiary is.
Pizza companies.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30516780</id>
	<title>Even better</title>
	<author>Thuktun</author>
	<datestamp>1261389900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Rather than someone willing to come in and support you when you work overtime, how about having a boss and management above that ensure you don't HAVE to work overtime.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Rather than someone willing to come in and support you when you work overtime , how about having a boss and management above that ensure you do n't HAVE to work overtime .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Rather than someone willing to come in and support you when you work overtime, how about having a boss and management above that ensure you don't HAVE to work overtime.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505794</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>blackcoot</author>
	<datestamp>1261340280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>exactly, although i suspect that the right answer depends on the kind of person you are.</p><p>for me, very few things piss me off more quickly than getting a request to stay late to finish something for a deadline without even a hint of an offer of help from my management. this usually means i turn into the bad guy asking my team to work extra hours to deal with the most recent crisis caused by one of the other teams on our project (conveniently located elsewhere in the country and impossible to contact after 4pm eastern) screwing up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>exactly , although i suspect that the right answer depends on the kind of person you are.for me , very few things piss me off more quickly than getting a request to stay late to finish something for a deadline without even a hint of an offer of help from my management .
this usually means i turn into the bad guy asking my team to work extra hours to deal with the most recent crisis caused by one of the other teams on our project ( conveniently located elsewhere in the country and impossible to contact after 4pm eastern ) screwing up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>exactly, although i suspect that the right answer depends on the kind of person you are.for me, very few things piss me off more quickly than getting a request to stay late to finish something for a deadline without even a hint of an offer of help from my management.
this usually means i turn into the bad guy asking my team to work extra hours to deal with the most recent crisis caused by one of the other teams on our project (conveniently located elsewhere in the country and impossible to contact after 4pm eastern) screwing up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30513298</id>
	<title>Re:Yes</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1261416960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Boy, you haven&rsquo;t eaten my salad yet. It&rsquo;s got a huge steak, potatoes and stuff right next to it.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D</p><p>But I agree with you on the &ldquo;no compromises&rdquo; policy.<br>There is no reason, why pizza can&rsquo;t be healthy without making compromises.<br>Take finely milled whole wheat flour (looks and tastes like normal flour, but is very healthy, because of the B-vitamins), add normal tomato sauce, (nothing wrong with that), some toppings and cheese. Then eat a small salad as appetizer to balance the cheese, and maybe some fresh fruit later. And you got yourself a healthy, and delicious meal.</p><p>Everything can be healthy and delicious. Just follow these rules:<br>
&nbsp; Don&rsquo;t make compromises in taste.<br>
&nbsp; Everything should be as fresh as humanly possible (the secret of every great chef).<br>
&nbsp; The carbohydrates should be as long as possible.<br>
&nbsp; The proteins should not be destructed by e.g. heat.<br>
&nbsp; The vitamins should not be destructed by e.g. heat.<br>
&nbsp; The fats should be as liquid as possible. (= as unsaturated as possible)<br>
&nbsp; The heat should generally be as low as possible (slow cooking, the other secret of modern great chefs).<br>
&nbsp; Don&rsquo;t make compromises in taste.<br>
&nbsp; Variation, variation, variation.<br>
&nbsp; Learn how to cook like a chef. (Or have a wife who can.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>Oh, and fresh stuff is usually cheaper, because processing costs money. (You don&rsquo;t have to buy that horribly expensive &ldquo;organic&rdquo; stuff. It&rsquo;s often just as unhealty.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Boy , you haven    t eaten my salad yet .
It    s got a huge steak , potatoes and stuff right next to it .
: DBut I agree with you on the    no compromises    policy.There is no reason , why pizza can    t be healthy without making compromises.Take finely milled whole wheat flour ( looks and tastes like normal flour , but is very healthy , because of the B-vitamins ) , add normal tomato sauce , ( nothing wrong with that ) , some toppings and cheese .
Then eat a small salad as appetizer to balance the cheese , and maybe some fresh fruit later .
And you got yourself a healthy , and delicious meal.Everything can be healthy and delicious .
Just follow these rules :   Don    t make compromises in taste .
  Everything should be as fresh as humanly possible ( the secret of every great chef ) .
  The carbohydrates should be as long as possible .
  The proteins should not be destructed by e.g .
heat .   The vitamins should not be destructed by e.g .
heat .   The fats should be as liquid as possible .
( = as unsaturated as possible )   The heat should generally be as low as possible ( slow cooking , the other secret of modern great chefs ) .
  Don    t make compromises in taste .
  Variation , variation , variation .
  Learn how to cook like a chef .
( Or have a wife who can .
: ) Oh , and fresh stuff is usually cheaper , because processing costs money .
( You don    t have to buy that horribly expensive    organic    stuff .
It    s often just as unhealty .
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Boy, you haven’t eaten my salad yet.
It’s got a huge steak, potatoes and stuff right next to it.
:DBut I agree with you on the “no compromises” policy.There is no reason, why pizza can’t be healthy without making compromises.Take finely milled whole wheat flour (looks and tastes like normal flour, but is very healthy, because of the B-vitamins), add normal tomato sauce, (nothing wrong with that), some toppings and cheese.
Then eat a small salad as appetizer to balance the cheese, and maybe some fresh fruit later.
And you got yourself a healthy, and delicious meal.Everything can be healthy and delicious.
Just follow these rules:
  Don’t make compromises in taste.
  Everything should be as fresh as humanly possible (the secret of every great chef).
  The carbohydrates should be as long as possible.
  The proteins should not be destructed by e.g.
heat.
  The vitamins should not be destructed by e.g.
heat.
  The fats should be as liquid as possible.
(= as unsaturated as possible)
  The heat should generally be as low as possible (slow cooking, the other secret of modern great chefs).
  Don’t make compromises in taste.
  Variation, variation, variation.
  Learn how to cook like a chef.
(Or have a wife who can.
:)Oh, and fresh stuff is usually cheaper, because processing costs money.
(You don’t have to buy that horribly expensive “organic” stuff.
It’s often just as unhealty.
;)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506916</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30515318</id>
	<title>Re:Methodology Problems</title>
	<author>Cederic</author>
	<datestamp>1261425780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's a sad day when people are linking to Wikipedia for YAGNI instead of the original wiki<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:(</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's a sad day when people are linking to Wikipedia for YAGNI instead of the original wiki : (</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's a sad day when people are linking to Wikipedia for YAGNI instead of the original wiki :(</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507650</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30508708</id>
	<title>manager's fault = manager's loss of free time</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261326720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the development team routinely needs to stay late to finish standard work; it's management's fault (either committing the team to an unrealistic schedule or not building a competent team): management better damn well screw themselves too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the development team routinely needs to stay late to finish standard work ; it 's management 's fault ( either committing the team to an unrealistic schedule or not building a competent team ) : management better damn well screw themselves too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the development team routinely needs to stay late to finish standard work; it's management's fault (either committing the team to an unrealistic schedule or not building a competent team): management better damn well screw themselves too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30511792</id>
	<title>Re:Methodology Problems</title>
	<author>ReadParse</author>
	<datestamp>1261409340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree that all-nighters are almost never productive, but this question was about staying late, not about working all-nighters.</p><p>I'd like to believe that all work could get done within business hours and on my team it usually does.  But there will always be times that the team needs to stay late, because things always come up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree that all-nighters are almost never productive , but this question was about staying late , not about working all-nighters.I 'd like to believe that all work could get done within business hours and on my team it usually does .
But there will always be times that the team needs to stay late , because things always come up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree that all-nighters are almost never productive, but this question was about staying late, not about working all-nighters.I'd like to believe that all work could get done within business hours and on my team it usually does.
But there will always be times that the team needs to stay late, because things always come up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507650</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30509742</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Maxo-Texas</author>
	<datestamp>1261427340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I got my current job, there were a series of questions like that.</p><p>Fortunately, I'd been clued in that all the questions required that I think in terms of using a team.</p><p>My years of EQ guild leadership helped a great deal then and later on the job in terms of delegation.</p><p>I'd learned you can't do it all, you have to trust people, and they prefer you set the goal and let them work out the details.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I got my current job , there were a series of questions like that.Fortunately , I 'd been clued in that all the questions required that I think in terms of using a team.My years of EQ guild leadership helped a great deal then and later on the job in terms of delegation.I 'd learned you ca n't do it all , you have to trust people , and they prefer you set the goal and let them work out the details .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I got my current job, there were a series of questions like that.Fortunately, I'd been clued in that all the questions required that I think in terms of using a team.My years of EQ guild leadership helped a great deal then and later on the job in terms of delegation.I'd learned you can't do it all, you have to trust people, and they prefer you set the goal and let them work out the details.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506796</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30513398</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>HiVizDiver</author>
	<datestamp>1261417440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> I don't have to know the absolute minute details of how/why <b>their</b> doing something...</p></div><p>ugh... "they're"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't have to know the absolute minute details of how/why their doing something...ugh... " they 're " ; - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I don't have to know the absolute minute details of how/why their doing something...ugh... "they're" ;-)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506056</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</id>
	<title>It's called a team</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261338420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If I'm in the shit, I want you in the shit with me. Though, being a manager and staying late with your developers, your first priority shouldn't be riding them but play a support role. What do they need to get the job done? What can you do to remove obstacles from their way? Food? Drinks? Problems come up. What can you as a manager do to resolve that problem?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If I 'm in the shit , I want you in the shit with me .
Though , being a manager and staying late with your developers , your first priority should n't be riding them but play a support role .
What do they need to get the job done ?
What can you do to remove obstacles from their way ?
Food ? Drinks ?
Problems come up .
What can you as a manager do to resolve that problem ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I'm in the shit, I want you in the shit with me.
Though, being a manager and staying late with your developers, your first priority shouldn't be riding them but play a support role.
What do they need to get the job done?
What can you do to remove obstacles from their way?
Food? Drinks?
Problems come up.
What can you as a manager do to resolve that problem?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505826</id>
	<title>The manager manages</title>
	<author>club</author>
	<datestamp>1261340580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Having the manager who can't help with the job you're doing present when things are going wrong seems to be the norm in every industry. If everything breaks down you call the manager, because they manage things, that's their job.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Having the manager who ca n't help with the job you 're doing present when things are going wrong seems to be the norm in every industry .
If everything breaks down you call the manager , because they manage things , that 's their job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having the manager who can't help with the job you're doing present when things are going wrong seems to be the norm in every industry.
If everything breaks down you call the manager, because they manage things, that's their job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507066</id>
	<title>yes, but</title>
	<author>Tom</author>
	<datestamp>1261307640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, he should, but instead of "herding" perfectly adult people, he should spend his time making sure their time is spent as productive as possible. Or in other words: Do what managers are there for, before they became all overblown ego-trippers. Make sure there are no disturbances, give encouraging feedback if someone hands something in, order pizza or sort out the paperwork - whatever keeps them productive and happy.</p><p>Do <b>not/b, under any circumstances, look over their shoulders or "herd" them.</b></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , he should , but instead of " herding " perfectly adult people , he should spend his time making sure their time is spent as productive as possible .
Or in other words : Do what managers are there for , before they became all overblown ego-trippers .
Make sure there are no disturbances , give encouraging feedback if someone hands something in , order pizza or sort out the paperwork - whatever keeps them productive and happy.Do not/b , under any circumstances , look over their shoulders or " herd " them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, he should, but instead of "herding" perfectly adult people, he should spend his time making sure their time is spent as productive as possible.
Or in other words: Do what managers are there for, before they became all overblown ego-trippers.
Make sure there are no disturbances, give encouraging feedback if someone hands something in, order pizza or sort out the paperwork - whatever keeps them productive and happy.Do not/b, under any circumstances, look over their shoulders or "herd" them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30508032</id>
	<title>Staying late together</title>
	<author>Galen Wolffit</author>
	<datestamp>1261318500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As someone who straddles the fence between being a developer and being a manager (I'm upper management, but at a small business that means I still occasionally get involved in the coding) on the rare occasions that we have to ask the developers to stay late to fix something, get something out the door, etc. I'm almost always staying late with them.</p><p>When the manager can provide useful input (either by helping get the code written, testing, communicating status with the customer, etc.) their presence helps achieve the goal and helps keep morale up.  Even when the manager can't provide useful input, their presence (in their office, not interfering) still helps keep up morale, and lets the developers know their efforts ARE noticed and appreciated.</p><p>I say let the managers stay late with the developers - but keep out of the developers' way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone who straddles the fence between being a developer and being a manager ( I 'm upper management , but at a small business that means I still occasionally get involved in the coding ) on the rare occasions that we have to ask the developers to stay late to fix something , get something out the door , etc .
I 'm almost always staying late with them.When the manager can provide useful input ( either by helping get the code written , testing , communicating status with the customer , etc .
) their presence helps achieve the goal and helps keep morale up .
Even when the manager ca n't provide useful input , their presence ( in their office , not interfering ) still helps keep up morale , and lets the developers know their efforts ARE noticed and appreciated.I say let the managers stay late with the developers - but keep out of the developers ' way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone who straddles the fence between being a developer and being a manager (I'm upper management, but at a small business that means I still occasionally get involved in the coding) on the rare occasions that we have to ask the developers to stay late to fix something, get something out the door, etc.
I'm almost always staying late with them.When the manager can provide useful input (either by helping get the code written, testing, communicating status with the customer, etc.
) their presence helps achieve the goal and helps keep morale up.
Even when the manager can't provide useful input, their presence (in their office, not interfering) still helps keep up morale, and lets the developers know their efforts ARE noticed and appreciated.I say let the managers stay late with the developers - but keep out of the developers' way.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505904</id>
	<title>it's simple...</title>
	<author>weeeeed</author>
	<datestamp>1261340940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>if you have to work late, then it's because he failed as a manager (planning to short, failing to extend dev-time in advance, failing to communicate it to superiors, etc...), so of course he should stay too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>if you have to work late , then it 's because he failed as a manager ( planning to short , failing to extend dev-time in advance , failing to communicate it to superiors , etc... ) , so of course he should stay too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if you have to work late, then it's because he failed as a manager (planning to short, failing to extend dev-time in advance, failing to communicate it to superiors, etc...), so of course he should stay too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507236</id>
	<title>Should the Manager stay?</title>
	<author>reybrujo</author>
	<datestamp>1261309020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, we want to play Counter-Strike in peace.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , we want to play Counter-Strike in peace .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, we want to play Counter-Strike in peace.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30508056</id>
	<title>No</title>
	<author>br00tus</author>
	<datestamp>1261318740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Honestly, I don't care about that.  I would much rather have a boss with a backbone who prevents unnecessary late night requests then one who is micro-managing me during one.  Most bosses I've had fall into two categories: self-confident, competent people who don't agree to crazy requests from other teams and their managers and who generally leave me alone - and - incompetent managers who worry about their position and who agree to impossible demands and who get nervous and pissy whenever something goes wrong and who are always micro-managing.  Being one or the other is what keeps me there or looking for a job elsewhere.

If I have to stay two hours extra to finish something, I prefer my boss leaving, its sort of like "I have faith and confidence you can handle this, call me if there's a problem".  On the other hand, if I or the team has to come in at 3 AM Saturday morning for some reason and the manager comes in just to show moral support that an inconvenience for us will be one that he will bear as well, that can be a nice thing - you know he's not going to have you working hours he won't work himself.  But as I said, being competent, self-confident and having a backbone with other business units and with his own management is what I want more than working late with me.  I'd rather him making sure I don't have to work late to deal with some other groups problems or lack of planning or whatever.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Honestly , I do n't care about that .
I would much rather have a boss with a backbone who prevents unnecessary late night requests then one who is micro-managing me during one .
Most bosses I 've had fall into two categories : self-confident , competent people who do n't agree to crazy requests from other teams and their managers and who generally leave me alone - and - incompetent managers who worry about their position and who agree to impossible demands and who get nervous and pissy whenever something goes wrong and who are always micro-managing .
Being one or the other is what keeps me there or looking for a job elsewhere .
If I have to stay two hours extra to finish something , I prefer my boss leaving , its sort of like " I have faith and confidence you can handle this , call me if there 's a problem " .
On the other hand , if I or the team has to come in at 3 AM Saturday morning for some reason and the manager comes in just to show moral support that an inconvenience for us will be one that he will bear as well , that can be a nice thing - you know he 's not going to have you working hours he wo n't work himself .
But as I said , being competent , self-confident and having a backbone with other business units and with his own management is what I want more than working late with me .
I 'd rather him making sure I do n't have to work late to deal with some other groups problems or lack of planning or whatever .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Honestly, I don't care about that.
I would much rather have a boss with a backbone who prevents unnecessary late night requests then one who is micro-managing me during one.
Most bosses I've had fall into two categories: self-confident, competent people who don't agree to crazy requests from other teams and their managers and who generally leave me alone - and - incompetent managers who worry about their position and who agree to impossible demands and who get nervous and pissy whenever something goes wrong and who are always micro-managing.
Being one or the other is what keeps me there or looking for a job elsewhere.
If I have to stay two hours extra to finish something, I prefer my boss leaving, its sort of like "I have faith and confidence you can handle this, call me if there's a problem".
On the other hand, if I or the team has to come in at 3 AM Saturday morning for some reason and the manager comes in just to show moral support that an inconvenience for us will be one that he will bear as well, that can be a nice thing - you know he's not going to have you working hours he won't work himself.
But as I said, being competent, self-confident and having a backbone with other business units and with his own management is what I want more than working late with me.
I'd rather him making sure I don't have to work late to deal with some other groups problems or lack of planning or whatever.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506192</id>
	<title>Re:Yes.</title>
	<author>FrozenGeek</author>
	<datestamp>1261300020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That is a first rate manager.<br> <br>If you haven't already done so, please let him know that you appreciate that he got it right.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That is a first rate manager .
If you have n't already done so , please let him know that you appreciate that he got it right .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is a first rate manager.
If you haven't already done so, please let him know that you appreciate that he got it right.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506728</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261305000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When the developers are late, the technical writers work week-ends. They call this Agile Scrum.</p><p>An anagram of Agile Scrum is 'Claim Surge' but I'll leave that for another time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When the developers are late , the technical writers work week-ends .
They call this Agile Scrum.An anagram of Agile Scrum is 'Claim Surge ' but I 'll leave that for another time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When the developers are late, the technical writers work week-ends.
They call this Agile Scrum.An anagram of Agile Scrum is 'Claim Surge' but I'll leave that for another time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505650</id>
	<title>Good management</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261339080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you expect your workers to work late, you damn well better not be taking off to see your family or hit the links. I say this as a manager.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you expect your workers to work late , you damn well better not be taking off to see your family or hit the links .
I say this as a manager .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you expect your workers to work late, you damn well better not be taking off to see your family or hit the links.
I say this as a manager.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30516236</id>
	<title>Re:As long as he knows how to ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261387080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree.  As long as the reason he/she is staying isn't to second guess/criticize you.</p><p>OTOH, I find that when a project is running late, a lot of times it comes back to uncertainty about the correct behavior of the system in some edge case (missing requirements/under specification).  When this is the case, it is very helpful if there is someone there who can help to answer those questions.  If the problem is just that something was under estimated or there is some other purely technical hurdle, there isn't much to do besides put your nose to the grindstone and get it done, so having someone else around may not be as helpful.</p><p>If the reason everyone is staying late is because the boss messed something up, he should be with you whether he can help or not.  If it is your own fault that something isn't done, it is up to you to right that situation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree .
As long as the reason he/she is staying is n't to second guess/criticize you.OTOH , I find that when a project is running late , a lot of times it comes back to uncertainty about the correct behavior of the system in some edge case ( missing requirements/under specification ) .
When this is the case , it is very helpful if there is someone there who can help to answer those questions .
If the problem is just that something was under estimated or there is some other purely technical hurdle , there is n't much to do besides put your nose to the grindstone and get it done , so having someone else around may not be as helpful.If the reason everyone is staying late is because the boss messed something up , he should be with you whether he can help or not .
If it is your own fault that something is n't done , it is up to you to right that situation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree.
As long as the reason he/she is staying isn't to second guess/criticize you.OTOH, I find that when a project is running late, a lot of times it comes back to uncertainty about the correct behavior of the system in some edge case (missing requirements/under specification).
When this is the case, it is very helpful if there is someone there who can help to answer those questions.
If the problem is just that something was under estimated or there is some other purely technical hurdle, there isn't much to do besides put your nose to the grindstone and get it done, so having someone else around may not be as helpful.If the reason everyone is staying late is because the boss messed something up, he should be with you whether he can help or not.
If it is your own fault that something isn't done, it is up to you to right that situation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505538</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505608</id>
	<title>certain amount</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261338780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd say 20\% of the time the manager should stay, since about 80\% of them are idiots.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd say 20 \ % of the time the manager should stay , since about 80 \ % of them are idiots .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd say 20\% of the time the manager should stay, since about 80\% of them are idiots.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506404</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261301880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, that would be helpful.  Getting Pizza and drinks, making sure.... that people take breaks from the screen (many many times it helps, especially if things are not going well for a coder.  A break lets your subconcious unscramble the puzzle and delivers better product.  Where I work, that doesn't happen.  Bosses are there to ride people.  To bitch slap them if they should for even a second (use your stopwatch to measure 1 second to see what I mean), stop even for a 1.000 second mental break.  They are not there to be helpful.  They are not there to be supportive.  They are not there to lend a hand.  They are there to crack the whip unyieldingly.  To berate, admonish, punish, and threaten with termination (I work for a hole of a place, no one who quits or gets fired or laid off ever ever comes back).  Its a wonder some of the bosses haven't been shot (I'm not being figurative).  So there is your reply.  Sometimes if the boss is a mentor, supporter, LEADER of the team, they can be an asset.  Many times (like where I work), they are a hinderance, a liability, and people cheer when they are gone.  (If anyone hears that they are having a heart attack, etc. faint cheers, etc. may be heard).  So it depends on where you work, and what's going on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , that would be helpful .
Getting Pizza and drinks , making sure.... that people take breaks from the screen ( many many times it helps , especially if things are not going well for a coder .
A break lets your subconcious unscramble the puzzle and delivers better product .
Where I work , that does n't happen .
Bosses are there to ride people .
To bitch slap them if they should for even a second ( use your stopwatch to measure 1 second to see what I mean ) , stop even for a 1.000 second mental break .
They are not there to be helpful .
They are not there to be supportive .
They are not there to lend a hand .
They are there to crack the whip unyieldingly .
To berate , admonish , punish , and threaten with termination ( I work for a hole of a place , no one who quits or gets fired or laid off ever ever comes back ) .
Its a wonder some of the bosses have n't been shot ( I 'm not being figurative ) .
So there is your reply .
Sometimes if the boss is a mentor , supporter , LEADER of the team , they can be an asset .
Many times ( like where I work ) , they are a hinderance , a liability , and people cheer when they are gone .
( If anyone hears that they are having a heart attack , etc .
faint cheers , etc .
may be heard ) .
So it depends on where you work , and what 's going on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, that would be helpful.
Getting Pizza and drinks, making sure.... that people take breaks from the screen (many many times it helps, especially if things are not going well for a coder.
A break lets your subconcious unscramble the puzzle and delivers better product.
Where I work, that doesn't happen.
Bosses are there to ride people.
To bitch slap them if they should for even a second (use your stopwatch to measure 1 second to see what I mean), stop even for a 1.000 second mental break.
They are not there to be helpful.
They are not there to be supportive.
They are not there to lend a hand.
They are there to crack the whip unyieldingly.
To berate, admonish, punish, and threaten with termination (I work for a hole of a place, no one who quits or gets fired or laid off ever ever comes back).
Its a wonder some of the bosses haven't been shot (I'm not being figurative).
So there is your reply.
Sometimes if the boss is a mentor, supporter, LEADER of the team, they can be an asset.
Many times (like where I work), they are a hinderance, a liability, and people cheer when they are gone.
(If anyone hears that they are having a heart attack, etc.
faint cheers, etc.
may be heard).
So it depends on where you work, and what's going on.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505766</id>
	<title>leadership</title>
	<author>el\_tedward</author>
	<datestamp>1261339980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is really more of a question about leadership than about management. The two cross over a lot, but leadership pretty much == how you influence others, while management == how you utilize your resources.</p><p>I don't see any reason for a supervisor/manager not to want to stay up late when their developers are getting asked to do the same thing. A developer is not going to be as motivated to push themselves and do good work if they see that a higher up is acting like a douche. There ARE times when it is appropriate to micro manage. Proper team building and leadership, however, should lead one away from having to do this. The main thing the manager should be doing when people start having to stay up late is make sure the team is moving overall in the right direction (macro management), and provide support to keep everyone motivated.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is really more of a question about leadership than about management .
The two cross over a lot , but leadership pretty much = = how you influence others , while management = = how you utilize your resources.I do n't see any reason for a supervisor/manager not to want to stay up late when their developers are getting asked to do the same thing .
A developer is not going to be as motivated to push themselves and do good work if they see that a higher up is acting like a douche .
There ARE times when it is appropriate to micro manage .
Proper team building and leadership , however , should lead one away from having to do this .
The main thing the manager should be doing when people start having to stay up late is make sure the team is moving overall in the right direction ( macro management ) , and provide support to keep everyone motivated .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is really more of a question about leadership than about management.
The two cross over a lot, but leadership pretty much == how you influence others, while management == how you utilize your resources.I don't see any reason for a supervisor/manager not to want to stay up late when their developers are getting asked to do the same thing.
A developer is not going to be as motivated to push themselves and do good work if they see that a higher up is acting like a douche.
There ARE times when it is appropriate to micro manage.
Proper team building and leadership, however, should lead one away from having to do this.
The main thing the manager should be doing when people start having to stay up late is make sure the team is moving overall in the right direction (macro management), and provide support to keep everyone motivated.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30528736</id>
	<title>For pizza, sure...</title>
	<author>smithmc</author>
	<datestamp>1261475460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...or to be available to answer questions, or try out a new UI screen or feature and give feedback, or to act as a sounding board (if the manager is competent to do that), etc. but <b> <i>DON'T HOVER</i> </b>.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...or to be available to answer questions , or try out a new UI screen or feature and give feedback , or to act as a sounding board ( if the manager is competent to do that ) , etc .
but DO N'T HOVER .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...or to be available to answer questions, or try out a new UI screen or feature and give feedback, or to act as a sounding board (if the manager is competent to do that), etc.
but  DON'T HOVER .</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30511606</id>
	<title>One Developer's Opinion</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261408260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For morale - yes.  For food - yes.  For support - yes.  If the purpose is to lord you power over the workers, flinging implied threats -- take you stinkin' butt home.  If you can't trust your developers, fire them.  Otherwise let them do their jobs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For morale - yes .
For food - yes .
For support - yes .
If the purpose is to lord you power over the workers , flinging implied threats -- take you stinkin ' butt home .
If you ca n't trust your developers , fire them .
Otherwise let them do their jobs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For morale - yes.
For food - yes.
For support - yes.
If the purpose is to lord you power over the workers, flinging implied threats -- take you stinkin' butt home.
If you can't trust your developers, fire them.
Otherwise let them do their jobs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506630</id>
	<title>Re:As long as he knows how to ...</title>
	<author>RichardJenkins</author>
	<datestamp>1261303980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Huh, some devs work with their managers hovering around? Sucks.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Huh , some devs work with their managers hovering around ?
Sucks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Huh, some devs work with their managers hovering around?
Sucks.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505538</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506338</id>
	<title>Re:A good manager...</title>
	<author>reynolds\_john</author>
	<datestamp>1261301340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In response to the original - simple answer, wrong question. The manager should stay if:<br>1. The manager can provide some sort of recognizable value to the effort (getting coffee, running interference, coding, whatever).<br>2. The manager is directly responsible for the late hours being incurred.<br>3. The manager can provide some sort of morale boost to the employees by physically being present.</p><p>On the flip side, should you remain in the office when the manager has to stay late? Perhaps he's staying late because your team didn't finish the code you promised at a particular time. What then? Why isn't the CEO staying late when you have to work overtime?</p><p>In response to parent:</p><p>Indeed, it may be time for the poster to stop looking at the individual "I'm putting in OT, why isn't my manager here" and start looking inwards, and at the macro level of the organisation. Recently, in an attempt to understand my own organization's psychotic management style (note here I'm not absolving myself of any wrongdoing), I've been reading Edward Yourdon's "Death March". Snippet:</p><p>"Companies both large and small are filled with politics and are staffed by managers and technical developers who suffer from hysterical optimism as well as the usual gamut of emotions such as fear, insecurity, arrogance, and naivete. And the combination of re-engineering, downsizing, outsourcing, and global competition - together with the opportunities provided by new technologies<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and the internet - suggest to me that death march projects are likely to be a common occurrence for years to come."</p><p>The rest of Yourdon's book is spent lending an understanding as to why these things happen from many standpoints, with the hope that you can empower yourself to make a *rational* decision about your involvement in the project, and even the company as a whole.  At the end of the day, it's your time, and your life. But at least come to the conclusion that you're 50\% of the problem - management isn't solely responsible for your unhappiness. With the frenetic pace of companies today, people have very little time to learn, develop, and get things right. By the time something settles into resembling a normal project, everything changes and the process of education, experience, mistakes, etc. starts all over again. The players, environment - everything changes every single day.</p><p>I'm not implying that everyone should throw up their hands. But if you're not actively attempting to change the environment around you through your own education and experience, then I submit that you're just part of the problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In response to the original - simple answer , wrong question .
The manager should stay if : 1 .
The manager can provide some sort of recognizable value to the effort ( getting coffee , running interference , coding , whatever ) .2 .
The manager is directly responsible for the late hours being incurred.3 .
The manager can provide some sort of morale boost to the employees by physically being present.On the flip side , should you remain in the office when the manager has to stay late ?
Perhaps he 's staying late because your team did n't finish the code you promised at a particular time .
What then ?
Why is n't the CEO staying late when you have to work overtime ? In response to parent : Indeed , it may be time for the poster to stop looking at the individual " I 'm putting in OT , why is n't my manager here " and start looking inwards , and at the macro level of the organisation .
Recently , in an attempt to understand my own organization 's psychotic management style ( note here I 'm not absolving myself of any wrongdoing ) , I 've been reading Edward Yourdon 's " Death March " .
Snippet : " Companies both large and small are filled with politics and are staffed by managers and technical developers who suffer from hysterical optimism as well as the usual gamut of emotions such as fear , insecurity , arrogance , and naivete .
And the combination of re-engineering , downsizing , outsourcing , and global competition - together with the opportunities provided by new technologies ... and the internet - suggest to me that death march projects are likely to be a common occurrence for years to come .
" The rest of Yourdon 's book is spent lending an understanding as to why these things happen from many standpoints , with the hope that you can empower yourself to make a * rational * decision about your involvement in the project , and even the company as a whole .
At the end of the day , it 's your time , and your life .
But at least come to the conclusion that you 're 50 \ % of the problem - management is n't solely responsible for your unhappiness .
With the frenetic pace of companies today , people have very little time to learn , develop , and get things right .
By the time something settles into resembling a normal project , everything changes and the process of education , experience , mistakes , etc .
starts all over again .
The players , environment - everything changes every single day.I 'm not implying that everyone should throw up their hands .
But if you 're not actively attempting to change the environment around you through your own education and experience , then I submit that you 're just part of the problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In response to the original - simple answer, wrong question.
The manager should stay if:1.
The manager can provide some sort of recognizable value to the effort (getting coffee, running interference, coding, whatever).2.
The manager is directly responsible for the late hours being incurred.3.
The manager can provide some sort of morale boost to the employees by physically being present.On the flip side, should you remain in the office when the manager has to stay late?
Perhaps he's staying late because your team didn't finish the code you promised at a particular time.
What then?
Why isn't the CEO staying late when you have to work overtime?In response to parent:Indeed, it may be time for the poster to stop looking at the individual "I'm putting in OT, why isn't my manager here" and start looking inwards, and at the macro level of the organisation.
Recently, in an attempt to understand my own organization's psychotic management style (note here I'm not absolving myself of any wrongdoing), I've been reading Edward Yourdon's "Death March".
Snippet:"Companies both large and small are filled with politics and are staffed by managers and technical developers who suffer from hysterical optimism as well as the usual gamut of emotions such as fear, insecurity, arrogance, and naivete.
And the combination of re-engineering, downsizing, outsourcing, and global competition - together with the opportunities provided by new technologies ... and the internet - suggest to me that death march projects are likely to be a common occurrence for years to come.
"The rest of Yourdon's book is spent lending an understanding as to why these things happen from many standpoints, with the hope that you can empower yourself to make a *rational* decision about your involvement in the project, and even the company as a whole.
At the end of the day, it's your time, and your life.
But at least come to the conclusion that you're 50\% of the problem - management isn't solely responsible for your unhappiness.
With the frenetic pace of companies today, people have very little time to learn, develop, and get things right.
By the time something settles into resembling a normal project, everything changes and the process of education, experience, mistakes, etc.
starts all over again.
The players, environment - everything changes every single day.I'm not implying that everyone should throw up their hands.
But if you're not actively attempting to change the environment around you through your own education and experience, then I submit that you're just part of the problem.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505750</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507410</id>
	<title>Re:Yes</title>
	<author>RyuuzakiTetsuya</author>
	<datestamp>1261310520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>hey!  When I was in middle school I could swing a hammer at my own arm at a 10th grade level.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>hey !
When I was in middle school I could swing a hammer at my own arm at a 10th grade level .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>hey!
When I was in middle school I could swing a hammer at my own arm at a 10th grade level.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506438</id>
	<title>Conditions of Employment</title>
	<author>Whiteox</author>
	<datestamp>1261302240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most employees rise up the ranks in one way or another (certification etc). You are no different in that aspect. You may have changed employer or even work for yourself.<br>As manager, you are obligated to manage, just as the active developers are obligated to work. That's why you get paid.</p><p>You need to make your own decision on <i>what level of involvement</i> you are comfortable with. That comfort zone includes your innate evaluation of your team and how productive they are with minimal supervision or using a buggy whip.</p><p>It's your call. Best practices are that you stay and monitor the work because if something goes screwy you are responsible.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most employees rise up the ranks in one way or another ( certification etc ) .
You are no different in that aspect .
You may have changed employer or even work for yourself.As manager , you are obligated to manage , just as the active developers are obligated to work .
That 's why you get paid.You need to make your own decision on what level of involvement you are comfortable with .
That comfort zone includes your innate evaluation of your team and how productive they are with minimal supervision or using a buggy whip.It 's your call .
Best practices are that you stay and monitor the work because if something goes screwy you are responsible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most employees rise up the ranks in one way or another (certification etc).
You are no different in that aspect.
You may have changed employer or even work for yourself.As manager, you are obligated to manage, just as the active developers are obligated to work.
That's why you get paid.You need to make your own decision on what level of involvement you are comfortable with.
That comfort zone includes your innate evaluation of your team and how productive they are with minimal supervision or using a buggy whip.It's your call.
Best practices are that you stay and monitor the work because if something goes screwy you are responsible.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30508018</id>
	<title>Stay late</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261318320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Stay late, but leave the developers alone. Sit in your office and try to think what YOU did wrong that your developers have to work late. Did you fail at scheduling? Did you fail to convince your bosses how long the work would take?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Stay late , but leave the developers alone .
Sit in your office and try to think what YOU did wrong that your developers have to work late .
Did you fail at scheduling ?
Did you fail to convince your bosses how long the work would take ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stay late, but leave the developers alone.
Sit in your office and try to think what YOU did wrong that your developers have to work late.
Did you fail at scheduling?
Did you fail to convince your bosses how long the work would take?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506980</id>
	<title>Re:Yes.</title>
	<author>aphelion\_rock</author>
	<datestamp>1261307040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have experienced a similar situation where the vendor managed to wipe both arrays on a redundant database. It was a new system and the backups hadn't been setup correctly yet, the only thing we had was a database export from 3 hours earlier.
Rather than ring us up and constantly annoy us along with all the other managers, he did the following:
(1)Stayed and answered the phones
(2)Kept management informed of the progress
(3)Kept us going with drinks and somehow found a pizza place open at midnight and kept us fed.

Not a great deal, but he ranks in my opinnion, as one of the best managers I have had.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have experienced a similar situation where the vendor managed to wipe both arrays on a redundant database .
It was a new system and the backups had n't been setup correctly yet , the only thing we had was a database export from 3 hours earlier .
Rather than ring us up and constantly annoy us along with all the other managers , he did the following : ( 1 ) Stayed and answered the phones ( 2 ) Kept management informed of the progress ( 3 ) Kept us going with drinks and somehow found a pizza place open at midnight and kept us fed .
Not a great deal , but he ranks in my opinnion , as one of the best managers I have had .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have experienced a similar situation where the vendor managed to wipe both arrays on a redundant database.
It was a new system and the backups hadn't been setup correctly yet, the only thing we had was a database export from 3 hours earlier.
Rather than ring us up and constantly annoy us along with all the other managers, he did the following:
(1)Stayed and answered the phones
(2)Kept management informed of the progress
(3)Kept us going with drinks and somehow found a pizza place open at midnight and kept us fed.
Not a great deal, but he ranks in my opinnion, as one of the best managers I have had.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506178</id>
	<title>Re:Yes</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261299900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Fuck pizza! There is little worse than pizza if you need to work hard. It makes you tired and sweaty, you suddenly wonder why you have to read things twice, slowly, before you understand them, and your cardiovascular system is basically &ldquo;sparks and explosions&rdquo;.</p><p>The best thing to make your brain work? Sleep, air, sleep, water, healthy food and sleep!<br>Taking pride in lack of sleep is like taking pride in hitting yourself with a hammer.<br>Taking pride in living on coffee, mountain dew and pizza, is like taking pride in drinking a shot glass of poison once a day.<br>It is not cool, it is not &ldquo;manly&rdquo;, it is not hackerish, is is not geeky.<br>It&rdquo;s Joe-Lower-Class-level retard-&ldquo;coolness&rdquo;.</p><p>Real hackers know that the body is the most impressive machine known to man. And that the only thing cooler than having a well set-up, impressive, high-performance computer do what you want, is having a well set-up, impressive, high-performance body/brain do what you want.</p><p>Healthy food is part of a healthy, collaborative effort.</p><p>P.S.: And I don&rsquo;t mean hippie food that tastes like crap, either.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:) I mean a large perfectly slow-oven-cooked steak, some good salad, tasty potatoes with some spring onions and parsley. That&rsquo;s healthy *and* incredibly tasty.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Fuck pizza !
There is little worse than pizza if you need to work hard .
It makes you tired and sweaty , you suddenly wonder why you have to read things twice , slowly , before you understand them , and your cardiovascular system is basically    sparks and explosions    .The best thing to make your brain work ?
Sleep , air , sleep , water , healthy food and sleep ! Taking pride in lack of sleep is like taking pride in hitting yourself with a hammer.Taking pride in living on coffee , mountain dew and pizza , is like taking pride in drinking a shot glass of poison once a day.It is not cool , it is not    manly    , it is not hackerish , is is not geeky.It    s Joe-Lower-Class-level retard-    coolness    .Real hackers know that the body is the most impressive machine known to man .
And that the only thing cooler than having a well set-up , impressive , high-performance computer do what you want , is having a well set-up , impressive , high-performance body/brain do what you want.Healthy food is part of a healthy , collaborative effort.P.S .
: And I don    t mean hippie food that tastes like crap , either .
: ) I mean a large perfectly slow-oven-cooked steak , some good salad , tasty potatoes with some spring onions and parsley .
That    s healthy * and * incredibly tasty .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fuck pizza!
There is little worse than pizza if you need to work hard.
It makes you tired and sweaty, you suddenly wonder why you have to read things twice, slowly, before you understand them, and your cardiovascular system is basically “sparks and explosions”.The best thing to make your brain work?
Sleep, air, sleep, water, healthy food and sleep!Taking pride in lack of sleep is like taking pride in hitting yourself with a hammer.Taking pride in living on coffee, mountain dew and pizza, is like taking pride in drinking a shot glass of poison once a day.It is not cool, it is not “manly”, it is not hackerish, is is not geeky.It”s Joe-Lower-Class-level retard-“coolness”.Real hackers know that the body is the most impressive machine known to man.
And that the only thing cooler than having a well set-up, impressive, high-performance computer do what you want, is having a well set-up, impressive, high-performance body/brain do what you want.Healthy food is part of a healthy, collaborative effort.P.S.
: And I don’t mean hippie food that tastes like crap, either.
:) I mean a large perfectly slow-oven-cooked steak, some good salad, tasty potatoes with some spring onions and parsley.
That’s healthy *and* incredibly tasty.
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505574</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507644</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>martin-boundary</author>
	<datestamp>1261313220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That's the Peter principle in action: every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's the Peter principle in action : every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's the Peter principle in action: every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506796</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506608</id>
	<title>Two types</title>
	<author>TheSoepkip</author>
	<datestamp>1261303800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>At my first job we had a project that required overtime. We had two managers. One was an ex coder, who taught himself the basics of the then novel language we were working in (Java). He help with deployment and his database skills were as good as ever. The other one was of the kind that you can manage anything by just dealing with the processes. One stuck with the team until there was a stable build, helping with database issues, deployments and helping make thorny decisions based on arguments. The other was out at 1700 because he had to pick up his girlfriend from horse riding.


Now 12 years later, I found that the latter seems to be the norm, worrying over generally trivial processes and their usefulness defined by how well they can keep upper management away from production. A project's success generally won't be determined by their contributions (a project's failure is another story). The former I remember as the best manager I've had up to date, leading by example without using useless one-liners that apply to only others not himself, capable of communicating (and getting) our needs to the upper levels and sticking with the team.


To me a manager that sticks around with the team and manages to make himself useful is a valuable asset. A manager that sticks around and provides nothing but a sign - off is replaceable by any from the large pool of line managers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>At my first job we had a project that required overtime .
We had two managers .
One was an ex coder , who taught himself the basics of the then novel language we were working in ( Java ) .
He help with deployment and his database skills were as good as ever .
The other one was of the kind that you can manage anything by just dealing with the processes .
One stuck with the team until there was a stable build , helping with database issues , deployments and helping make thorny decisions based on arguments .
The other was out at 1700 because he had to pick up his girlfriend from horse riding .
Now 12 years later , I found that the latter seems to be the norm , worrying over generally trivial processes and their usefulness defined by how well they can keep upper management away from production .
A project 's success generally wo n't be determined by their contributions ( a project 's failure is another story ) .
The former I remember as the best manager I 've had up to date , leading by example without using useless one-liners that apply to only others not himself , capable of communicating ( and getting ) our needs to the upper levels and sticking with the team .
To me a manager that sticks around with the team and manages to make himself useful is a valuable asset .
A manager that sticks around and provides nothing but a sign - off is replaceable by any from the large pool of line managers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At my first job we had a project that required overtime.
We had two managers.
One was an ex coder, who taught himself the basics of the then novel language we were working in (Java).
He help with deployment and his database skills were as good as ever.
The other one was of the kind that you can manage anything by just dealing with the processes.
One stuck with the team until there was a stable build, helping with database issues, deployments and helping make thorny decisions based on arguments.
The other was out at 1700 because he had to pick up his girlfriend from horse riding.
Now 12 years later, I found that the latter seems to be the norm, worrying over generally trivial processes and their usefulness defined by how well they can keep upper management away from production.
A project's success generally won't be determined by their contributions (a project's failure is another story).
The former I remember as the best manager I've had up to date, leading by example without using useless one-liners that apply to only others not himself, capable of communicating (and getting) our needs to the upper levels and sticking with the team.
To me a manager that sticks around with the team and manages to make himself useful is a valuable asset.
A manager that sticks around and provides nothing but a sign - off is replaceable by any from the large pool of line managers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506480</id>
	<title>my personal experience</title>
	<author>Aurisor</author>
	<datestamp>1261302540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've only really been in this situation once (non-technical manager, big deadline, his ass on the line), and I think the guy in question couldn't have handled it better.</p><p>First, he asked us for a list of things he could do to help.  Then, he got us free takeout from our choice of local restaurants, a couple liters of soda, and a six-pack for when the job was done.  Finally, he told us to get in touch with him if we needed anything, and he went around the corner and hung out in another office until we were done.</p><p>He had a beer with us at 1 AM and told us not to come in the next day until noon.</p><p>Good guy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've only really been in this situation once ( non-technical manager , big deadline , his ass on the line ) , and I think the guy in question could n't have handled it better.First , he asked us for a list of things he could do to help .
Then , he got us free takeout from our choice of local restaurants , a couple liters of soda , and a six-pack for when the job was done .
Finally , he told us to get in touch with him if we needed anything , and he went around the corner and hung out in another office until we were done.He had a beer with us at 1 AM and told us not to come in the next day until noon.Good guy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've only really been in this situation once (non-technical manager, big deadline, his ass on the line), and I think the guy in question couldn't have handled it better.First, he asked us for a list of things he could do to help.
Then, he got us free takeout from our choice of local restaurants, a couple liters of soda, and a six-pack for when the job was done.
Finally, he told us to get in touch with him if we needed anything, and he went around the corner and hung out in another office until we were done.He had a beer with us at 1 AM and told us not to come in the next day until noon.Good guy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507568</id>
	<title>Re:Yes</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261312440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Agreed, steak's great for the heart.  I bring a two-pound slab into work everyday...just rip off a hunk and you've got a healthy snack licketysplit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed , steak 's great for the heart .
I bring a two-pound slab into work everyday...just rip off a hunk and you 've got a healthy snack licketysplit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed, steak's great for the heart.
I bring a two-pound slab into work everyday...just rip off a hunk and you've got a healthy snack licketysplit.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506056</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>HiVizDiver</author>
	<datestamp>1261342080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>In the Army, we had a saying that the officers/senior staff's job, in addition to things like battle planning during exercises/times of conflict, was to be "in charge of the beans and the bullets". Meaning, keep the resources flowing that the team needs to keep working as efficiently as possible.
<br> <br>
It's no different with management - as a manager of a staff of 11, my job is to keep them working as best they can but STAY OUT OF THEIR WAY. I don't have to know the absolute minute details of how/why their doing something, as long as the project stays on track. If it means making sure a delivery of materials is ready so they can start the project on time, it means that. If it means making sure we have proper drawings/documentation before we start the project, it means that. If it means running out to a vendor to resupply something when the shit hits the fan, it means that. If it means buying pizza because we had to work late, it means that. Keep them working and focused on the task, not the support needs. But it does NOT mean I get in their way and hover over them, constantly checking their work. Most managers that I've met who know every specific detail about how to do the job their employees are doing aren't actually good "people" managers - they're micromanagers who usually suffer from a variety of social disorders, shall we say, and couldn't "manage" their way out of a paper bag.<br> <br>
Good management is as much about knowing what NOT to do as knowing what TO do.
<br> <br>
Obviously, if your team actually ARE a bunch of idiots, you have to change your tactics a bit, but in this economy, why do you have idiots working for you?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)</htmltext>
<tokenext>In the Army , we had a saying that the officers/senior staff 's job , in addition to things like battle planning during exercises/times of conflict , was to be " in charge of the beans and the bullets " .
Meaning , keep the resources flowing that the team needs to keep working as efficiently as possible .
It 's no different with management - as a manager of a staff of 11 , my job is to keep them working as best they can but STAY OUT OF THEIR WAY .
I do n't have to know the absolute minute details of how/why their doing something , as long as the project stays on track .
If it means making sure a delivery of materials is ready so they can start the project on time , it means that .
If it means making sure we have proper drawings/documentation before we start the project , it means that .
If it means running out to a vendor to resupply something when the shit hits the fan , it means that .
If it means buying pizza because we had to work late , it means that .
Keep them working and focused on the task , not the support needs .
But it does NOT mean I get in their way and hover over them , constantly checking their work .
Most managers that I 've met who know every specific detail about how to do the job their employees are doing are n't actually good " people " managers - they 're micromanagers who usually suffer from a variety of social disorders , shall we say , and could n't " manage " their way out of a paper bag .
Good management is as much about knowing what NOT to do as knowing what TO do .
Obviously , if your team actually ARE a bunch of idiots , you have to change your tactics a bit , but in this economy , why do you have idiots working for you ?
; - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the Army, we had a saying that the officers/senior staff's job, in addition to things like battle planning during exercises/times of conflict, was to be "in charge of the beans and the bullets".
Meaning, keep the resources flowing that the team needs to keep working as efficiently as possible.
It's no different with management - as a manager of a staff of 11, my job is to keep them working as best they can but STAY OUT OF THEIR WAY.
I don't have to know the absolute minute details of how/why their doing something, as long as the project stays on track.
If it means making sure a delivery of materials is ready so they can start the project on time, it means that.
If it means making sure we have proper drawings/documentation before we start the project, it means that.
If it means running out to a vendor to resupply something when the shit hits the fan, it means that.
If it means buying pizza because we had to work late, it means that.
Keep them working and focused on the task, not the support needs.
But it does NOT mean I get in their way and hover over them, constantly checking their work.
Most managers that I've met who know every specific detail about how to do the job their employees are doing aren't actually good "people" managers - they're micromanagers who usually suffer from a variety of social disorders, shall we say, and couldn't "manage" their way out of a paper bag.
Good management is as much about knowing what NOT to do as knowing what TO do.
Obviously, if your team actually ARE a bunch of idiots, you have to change your tactics a bit, but in this economy, why do you have idiots working for you?
;-)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505744</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506756</id>
	<title>Just go home</title>
	<author>nprz</author>
	<datestamp>1261305240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>After reading the article, I'd have to say he should just go home.<br>You give your best programmer the task to help a customer and he agrees. Then go home and don't bug him 5+ times a day/night about the job and the progress even though you can't help him.<br>I'd rather get a bigger bonus rather than pizza and a couple compliments the next day.</p><p>I rarely work over time as the net benefit over a long time isn't worth it. You get burnt out, can't use the comp time and start producing shittier work as time goes by.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>After reading the article , I 'd have to say he should just go home.You give your best programmer the task to help a customer and he agrees .
Then go home and do n't bug him 5 + times a day/night about the job and the progress even though you ca n't help him.I 'd rather get a bigger bonus rather than pizza and a couple compliments the next day.I rarely work over time as the net benefit over a long time is n't worth it .
You get burnt out , ca n't use the comp time and start producing shittier work as time goes by .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>After reading the article, I'd have to say he should just go home.You give your best programmer the task to help a customer and he agrees.
Then go home and don't bug him 5+ times a day/night about the job and the progress even though you can't help him.I'd rather get a bigger bonus rather than pizza and a couple compliments the next day.I rarely work over time as the net benefit over a long time isn't worth it.
You get burnt out, can't use the comp time and start producing shittier work as time goes by.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507366</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Fjan11</author>
	<datestamp>1261310160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree, but I would add another important point I picked up when training for naval officer: You have to keep some distance to give the men some room to goof off / bitch about the captain / etc. Specifically, we were told not to enter their quarters to have dinner with unless invited, and if invited for a drink/dinner to keep it brief. In a work situation it often may not be appropriate to go off and have lunch on your own somewhere, but I still think it's a good idea to make sure you are not always around them. (Of course, when you are making yourself scarce it may not be the best idea to do that by going home early, but that's another point)</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree , but I would add another important point I picked up when training for naval officer : You have to keep some distance to give the men some room to goof off / bitch about the captain / etc .
Specifically , we were told not to enter their quarters to have dinner with unless invited , and if invited for a drink/dinner to keep it brief .
In a work situation it often may not be appropriate to go off and have lunch on your own somewhere , but I still think it 's a good idea to make sure you are not always around them .
( Of course , when you are making yourself scarce it may not be the best idea to do that by going home early , but that 's another point )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree, but I would add another important point I picked up when training for naval officer: You have to keep some distance to give the men some room to goof off / bitch about the captain / etc.
Specifically, we were told not to enter their quarters to have dinner with unless invited, and if invited for a drink/dinner to keep it brief.
In a work situation it often may not be appropriate to go off and have lunch on your own somewhere, but I still think it's a good idea to make sure you are not always around them.
(Of course, when you are making yourself scarce it may not be the best idea to do that by going home early, but that's another point)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505878</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506198</id>
	<title>Manager vs managee hours are the issue</title>
	<author>EatAtJoes</author>
	<datestamp>1261300080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm a manager and a coder, and more often than not, I stay later than my developers -- as does *my* boss (who's not a coder).</p><p>It's one thing to require developers to stay later every now and then; if it's fairly self-directed the work, I don't see any need to stay with them. As other comments have noted, there is a valuable role in being around to provide direction if it's needed.</p><p>The real question though is -- do you work harder/longer than your developers the other days? If you do, then their late nights are no big deal.</p><p>If you don't then stay, buy pizza, and pray they don't quit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a manager and a coder , and more often than not , I stay later than my developers -- as does * my * boss ( who 's not a coder ) .It 's one thing to require developers to stay later every now and then ; if it 's fairly self-directed the work , I do n't see any need to stay with them .
As other comments have noted , there is a valuable role in being around to provide direction if it 's needed.The real question though is -- do you work harder/longer than your developers the other days ?
If you do , then their late nights are no big deal.If you do n't then stay , buy pizza , and pray they do n't quit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a manager and a coder, and more often than not, I stay later than my developers -- as does *my* boss (who's not a coder).It's one thing to require developers to stay later every now and then; if it's fairly self-directed the work, I don't see any need to stay with them.
As other comments have noted, there is a valuable role in being around to provide direction if it's needed.The real question though is -- do you work harder/longer than your developers the other days?
If you do, then their late nights are no big deal.If you don't then stay, buy pizza, and pray they don't quit.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507270</id>
	<title>Definitely don't stay.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261309260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, the manager should go away.  It'll be done when it's done, and it'll do what he wanted when he wanted if that's possible.</p><p>If the manager is an exceptionally competent programmer, and has an excellent rapport with the programmer, then he can maybe stay and pair program.  Personally I don't like pair programming, but I know others that do.  Certainly not everyone is a match for this though.  There are a lot of people whom I couldn't get along with pair programming.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , the manager should go away .
It 'll be done when it 's done , and it 'll do what he wanted when he wanted if that 's possible.If the manager is an exceptionally competent programmer , and has an excellent rapport with the programmer , then he can maybe stay and pair program .
Personally I do n't like pair programming , but I know others that do .
Certainly not everyone is a match for this though .
There are a lot of people whom I could n't get along with pair programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, the manager should go away.
It'll be done when it's done, and it'll do what he wanted when he wanted if that's possible.If the manager is an exceptionally competent programmer, and has an excellent rapport with the programmer, then he can maybe stay and pair program.
Personally I don't like pair programming, but I know others that do.
Certainly not everyone is a match for this though.
There are a lot of people whom I couldn't get along with pair programming.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505632</id>
	<title>Only if...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261338900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Only if the manager stays late to 1) eliminate external distractions, 2) order meals, 3) test, or 4) write macros, scripts or other shippable elements, if the product supports such features.</p><p>Hanging around just to make sure developers stays put or focused implies the developers aren't professionals or the manager isn't doing his job (item 1 above). If true, then it's the manager's fault for hiring or keeping the developer around and no amount of babysitting is going to deliver <em>quality</em> code. If not true, then an insulting hindrance and is quite likely to hinder or prevent delivery of quality code.</p><p>Lastly, there's always the question "Why are developers staying late anyway?" and whose fault is it. If it's the manager's fault, and it always is unless we're talking about developers who work night shifts, then hanging around to make sure developers get work done the manager caused or should have prevented is likely to cause resentment. Tread lightly and focus on items 1 - 4 above.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Only if the manager stays late to 1 ) eliminate external distractions , 2 ) order meals , 3 ) test , or 4 ) write macros , scripts or other shippable elements , if the product supports such features.Hanging around just to make sure developers stays put or focused implies the developers are n't professionals or the manager is n't doing his job ( item 1 above ) .
If true , then it 's the manager 's fault for hiring or keeping the developer around and no amount of babysitting is going to deliver quality code .
If not true , then an insulting hindrance and is quite likely to hinder or prevent delivery of quality code.Lastly , there 's always the question " Why are developers staying late anyway ?
" and whose fault is it .
If it 's the manager 's fault , and it always is unless we 're talking about developers who work night shifts , then hanging around to make sure developers get work done the manager caused or should have prevented is likely to cause resentment .
Tread lightly and focus on items 1 - 4 above .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Only if the manager stays late to 1) eliminate external distractions, 2) order meals, 3) test, or 4) write macros, scripts or other shippable elements, if the product supports such features.Hanging around just to make sure developers stays put or focused implies the developers aren't professionals or the manager isn't doing his job (item 1 above).
If true, then it's the manager's fault for hiring or keeping the developer around and no amount of babysitting is going to deliver quality code.
If not true, then an insulting hindrance and is quite likely to hinder or prevent delivery of quality code.Lastly, there's always the question "Why are developers staying late anyway?
" and whose fault is it.
If it's the manager's fault, and it always is unless we're talking about developers who work night shifts, then hanging around to make sure developers get work done the manager caused or should have prevented is likely to cause resentment.
Tread lightly and focus on items 1 - 4 above.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30507376</id>
	<title>Re:Only if...</title>
	<author>SharpFang</author>
	<datestamp>1261310220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>5) Help find bugs.</p><p>If you spent more than 10 minutes looking for a source of some seemingly simple bug (or corresponding longer time for a bigger one), call someone for help. Someone not busy at the moment. Two pairs of eyes on the code are able to spot problems in 10\% the time one pair can. It often suffices to lend an ear to let the developer explain how is the code supposed to work, and then the developer will often spot discrepancy between "supposed to" and "is written to".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>5 ) Help find bugs.If you spent more than 10 minutes looking for a source of some seemingly simple bug ( or corresponding longer time for a bigger one ) , call someone for help .
Someone not busy at the moment .
Two pairs of eyes on the code are able to spot problems in 10 \ % the time one pair can .
It often suffices to lend an ear to let the developer explain how is the code supposed to work , and then the developer will often spot discrepancy between " supposed to " and " is written to " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>5) Help find bugs.If you spent more than 10 minutes looking for a source of some seemingly simple bug (or corresponding longer time for a bigger one), call someone for help.
Someone not busy at the moment.
Two pairs of eyes on the code are able to spot problems in 10\% the time one pair can.
It often suffices to lend an ear to let the developer explain how is the code supposed to work, and then the developer will often spot discrepancy between "supposed to" and "is written to".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505632</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506288</id>
	<title>Working late, yes.  "Staying" late?  No.</title>
	<author>tommut</author>
	<datestamp>1261300800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My coworkers and myself often work late, but we do not "stay" late.  We have laptops and a VPN connection.  So if we're working into the night, it's' generally in the comfort of our own home.

That said, when the team is working late, we sure as hell do expect to see our manager online (at least giving the appearance that he is "in the shit" with us).</htmltext>
<tokenext>My coworkers and myself often work late , but we do not " stay " late .
We have laptops and a VPN connection .
So if we 're working into the night , it 's ' generally in the comfort of our own home .
That said , when the team is working late , we sure as hell do expect to see our manager online ( at least giving the appearance that he is " in the shit " with us ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My coworkers and myself often work late, but we do not "stay" late.
We have laptops and a VPN connection.
So if we're working into the night, it's' generally in the comfort of our own home.
That said, when the team is working late, we sure as hell do expect to see our manager online (at least giving the appearance that he is "in the shit" with us).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505656</id>
	<title>Sgt Slaughter put it best</title>
	<author>RedK</author>
	<datestamp>1261339140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>We all go home or nobody goes home.</htmltext>
<tokenext>We all go home or nobody goes home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We all go home or nobody goes home.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506442</id>
	<title>Turn it around</title>
	<author>Antique Geekmeister</author>
	<datestamp>1261302240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do you need to be there when a contractor is fixing the roof, or replacing a faucet, or replacing your carburetor? Do you want to be awake when a doctor sets your broken arm?</p><p>It depends tremendously on the level of trust, and the risk of needing to consult the person who holds the authority and the purse strings. It also depends on the expertise of the manager. If the manager is the one who remembers the last time this happened in a department full of new hires, or if the manager is needed to sign off on rebooting all the servers or taking core switches offline and disabling email for an hour, it can help if the manager is onsite. People accept such orders more readily, and it's often easier to explain consequences to the manager, if they're right there.</p><p>When it's the manager's bonehead decisions that caused the disaster, however, it can help the cleanup a lot if they're not there playing the "hide the evidence" or "find alternate explanations" game. I've been faced with that one on occasion, and on one memorable occasion had to sneak a pager message to a corporate partner's CEO to get him to send the manager home and out of our hair so I could speak unsupervised with the engineers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do you need to be there when a contractor is fixing the roof , or replacing a faucet , or replacing your carburetor ?
Do you want to be awake when a doctor sets your broken arm ? It depends tremendously on the level of trust , and the risk of needing to consult the person who holds the authority and the purse strings .
It also depends on the expertise of the manager .
If the manager is the one who remembers the last time this happened in a department full of new hires , or if the manager is needed to sign off on rebooting all the servers or taking core switches offline and disabling email for an hour , it can help if the manager is onsite .
People accept such orders more readily , and it 's often easier to explain consequences to the manager , if they 're right there.When it 's the manager 's bonehead decisions that caused the disaster , however , it can help the cleanup a lot if they 're not there playing the " hide the evidence " or " find alternate explanations " game .
I 've been faced with that one on occasion , and on one memorable occasion had to sneak a pager message to a corporate partner 's CEO to get him to send the manager home and out of our hair so I could speak unsupervised with the engineers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do you need to be there when a contractor is fixing the roof, or replacing a faucet, or replacing your carburetor?
Do you want to be awake when a doctor sets your broken arm?It depends tremendously on the level of trust, and the risk of needing to consult the person who holds the authority and the purse strings.
It also depends on the expertise of the manager.
If the manager is the one who remembers the last time this happened in a department full of new hires, or if the manager is needed to sign off on rebooting all the servers or taking core switches offline and disabling email for an hour, it can help if the manager is onsite.
People accept such orders more readily, and it's often easier to explain consequences to the manager, if they're right there.When it's the manager's bonehead decisions that caused the disaster, however, it can help the cleanup a lot if they're not there playing the "hide the evidence" or "find alternate explanations" game.
I've been faced with that one on occasion, and on one memorable occasion had to sneak a pager message to a corporate partner's CEO to get him to send the manager home and out of our hair so I could speak unsupervised with the engineers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30514434</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>Cornflake917</author>
	<datestamp>1261422000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Leadership is often like dancing tango: the trick is knowing when to do nothing.</p></div><p>What the hell makes you think that slashdotters know anything about tango?  Please stick to car analogies.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Leadership is often like dancing tango : the trick is knowing when to do nothing.What the hell makes you think that slashdotters know anything about tango ?
Please stick to car analogies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Leadership is often like dancing tango: the trick is knowing when to do nothing.What the hell makes you think that slashdotters know anything about tango?
Please stick to car analogies.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505888</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30513870</id>
	<title>Re:Just make sure everyone knows the situation</title>
	<author>shentino</author>
	<datestamp>1261419540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The higher ups call the shots and it's your job to get out of the way.</p><p>Seriously, with the dog-eat-doggery of capitalism pushing the top people on the food chain to near breaking point, is it any wonder that the same competitive tension filters down to the rank and file?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The higher ups call the shots and it 's your job to get out of the way.Seriously , with the dog-eat-doggery of capitalism pushing the top people on the food chain to near breaking point , is it any wonder that the same competitive tension filters down to the rank and file ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The higher ups call the shots and it's your job to get out of the way.Seriously, with the dog-eat-doggery of capitalism pushing the top people on the food chain to near breaking point, is it any wonder that the same competitive tension filters down to the rank and file?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505580</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505790</id>
	<title>alternatively</title>
	<author>Surt</author>
	<datestamp>1261340220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He could just learn to be a competent project planner so that you don't wind up having to work late nights and weekends<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He could just learn to be a competent project planner so that you do n't wind up having to work late nights and weekends ... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He could just learn to be a competent project planner so that you don't wind up having to work late nights and weekends ....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505758</id>
	<title>It depends on whether the manager is at all useful</title>
	<author>BlortHorc</author>
	<datestamp>1261339920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Having gone through late night deployments where I have been both the deployer/dev and other occasions where I have just been the manager, I have never been in a situation where I personally was not going to be able to take charge of any random role and heave to. That said, if the random role is a minor one that takes small pressure off the fulcrum, hey, crises are no time for egos, I'll do what is needed and try and contain panic in those of my staff not used to fan  shit interaction.</p><p>That said, I have most definitely been in the position where a deployment has gone to shit, and the time and effort to keep a manager who was utterly unable to provide any useful feedback or even perform minor ancillary tasks in the loop is absolute torture, if I had had a stronger sense of my use at the company at the time I would have said "the most useful thing you can do right now is fuck off and leave me to it", but as my manager was also the Head Cheese, such a comment was not going to go down well at the time.</p><p>Anyways, my 2c.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Having gone through late night deployments where I have been both the deployer/dev and other occasions where I have just been the manager , I have never been in a situation where I personally was not going to be able to take charge of any random role and heave to .
That said , if the random role is a minor one that takes small pressure off the fulcrum , hey , crises are no time for egos , I 'll do what is needed and try and contain panic in those of my staff not used to fan shit interaction.That said , I have most definitely been in the position where a deployment has gone to shit , and the time and effort to keep a manager who was utterly unable to provide any useful feedback or even perform minor ancillary tasks in the loop is absolute torture , if I had had a stronger sense of my use at the company at the time I would have said " the most useful thing you can do right now is fuck off and leave me to it " , but as my manager was also the Head Cheese , such a comment was not going to go down well at the time.Anyways , my 2c .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having gone through late night deployments where I have been both the deployer/dev and other occasions where I have just been the manager, I have never been in a situation where I personally was not going to be able to take charge of any random role and heave to.
That said, if the random role is a minor one that takes small pressure off the fulcrum, hey, crises are no time for egos, I'll do what is needed and try and contain panic in those of my staff not used to fan  shit interaction.That said, I have most definitely been in the position where a deployment has gone to shit, and the time and effort to keep a manager who was utterly unable to provide any useful feedback or even perform minor ancillary tasks in the loop is absolute torture, if I had had a stronger sense of my use at the company at the time I would have said "the most useful thing you can do right now is fuck off and leave me to it", but as my manager was also the Head Cheese, such a comment was not going to go down well at the time.Anyways, my 2c.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505666</id>
	<title>Get the F out of the way and give them a comp day</title>
	<author>sagman</author>
	<datestamp>1261339260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No need to add to the anxiety.  Give them a comp day (of their choice) and back off.  If you've been doing your job correctly they'll want to stay and they'll know that you will make it up to them.  Hey, this is part of the world we live in.  Keep the faith and you won't have a problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No need to add to the anxiety .
Give them a comp day ( of their choice ) and back off .
If you 've been doing your job correctly they 'll want to stay and they 'll know that you will make it up to them .
Hey , this is part of the world we live in .
Keep the faith and you wo n't have a problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No need to add to the anxiety.
Give them a comp day (of their choice) and back off.
If you've been doing your job correctly they'll want to stay and they'll know that you will make it up to them.
Hey, this is part of the world we live in.
Keep the faith and you won't have a problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506682</id>
	<title>Re:Yes.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261304400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I know this is a little off-topic<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>QA proess checking performance of source code (or the binary output)?  Seriously, either the your country works VERY differently to the rest of the WORLD - or you have NO IDEA what you're talking about.  Assurance does not invent requirements, nor check performance (which are normally captured in the form of requirements anyway) - but they will witness acceptance testing (ie. testing to ensure requirements are met).  QA also checks adherence to plans and process - and is involved with hardware inspections (eg. procurement, manufacturing).</p><p>Note: I've heard some strange stuff over the years (eg. Configuration Management tales) that would make your head spin.  Speaking of which, if you're from a function (Systems, Configuration, Safety, ILS, etc) and you're reading this, please do the following:<br>a) Leave your EGO at the door<br>b) Realise that you're there to support projects (that includes their budget and schedule)<br>c) If it's not legislated -or- it doesn't add value, don't mandate it - change the process<br>d) Don't make stuff up on the fly<br>e) Stop saying "I work for..." (eg the customer, the function) - it's destructive<br>f) Tell the project your requirements up-front when they're planning (scheduling and costing), not mid-way or at the end</p><p>On a last note, get back to work you slack-jawed software engineers - we're behind schedule<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)<br>AC</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I know this is a little off-topic : ) QA proess checking performance of source code ( or the binary output ) ?
Seriously , either the your country works VERY differently to the rest of the WORLD - or you have NO IDEA what you 're talking about .
Assurance does not invent requirements , nor check performance ( which are normally captured in the form of requirements anyway ) - but they will witness acceptance testing ( ie .
testing to ensure requirements are met ) .
QA also checks adherence to plans and process - and is involved with hardware inspections ( eg .
procurement , manufacturing ) .Note : I 've heard some strange stuff over the years ( eg .
Configuration Management tales ) that would make your head spin .
Speaking of which , if you 're from a function ( Systems , Configuration , Safety , ILS , etc ) and you 're reading this , please do the following : a ) Leave your EGO at the doorb ) Realise that you 're there to support projects ( that includes their budget and schedule ) c ) If it 's not legislated -or- it does n't add value , do n't mandate it - change the processd ) Do n't make stuff up on the flye ) Stop saying " I work for... " ( eg the customer , the function ) - it 's destructivef ) Tell the project your requirements up-front when they 're planning ( scheduling and costing ) , not mid-way or at the endOn a last note , get back to work you slack-jawed software engineers - we 're behind schedule : ) AC</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know this is a little off-topic :)QA proess checking performance of source code (or the binary output)?
Seriously, either the your country works VERY differently to the rest of the WORLD - or you have NO IDEA what you're talking about.
Assurance does not invent requirements, nor check performance (which are normally captured in the form of requirements anyway) - but they will witness acceptance testing (ie.
testing to ensure requirements are met).
QA also checks adherence to plans and process - and is involved with hardware inspections (eg.
procurement, manufacturing).Note: I've heard some strange stuff over the years (eg.
Configuration Management tales) that would make your head spin.
Speaking of which, if you're from a function (Systems, Configuration, Safety, ILS, etc) and you're reading this, please do the following:a) Leave your EGO at the doorb) Realise that you're there to support projects (that includes their budget and schedule)c) If it's not legislated -or- it doesn't add value, don't mandate it - change the processd) Don't make stuff up on the flye) Stop saying "I work for..." (eg the customer, the function) - it's destructivef) Tell the project your requirements up-front when they're planning (scheduling and costing), not mid-way or at the endOn a last note, get back to work you slack-jawed software engineers - we're behind schedule :)AC</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506636</id>
	<title>Stops trivial requests</title>
	<author>petes\_PoV</author>
	<datestamp>1261303980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Make the manager stay on - it stops frivolous requests for extra or unscheduled or "seemed like a good idea" work when the person requesting ot requiring it has to share the pain. If they have to give up their evening, or weekend or holiday they are much less likely to ask others to - unless there is a good reason for it. Hell, why stop at the immediate line manager. If it's important enough for me to lose my personal time I want a LOT of senior people to appreciate the sacrifice I'm making. What brings it home more than if they have to make the same sacrifices too?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Make the manager stay on - it stops frivolous requests for extra or unscheduled or " seemed like a good idea " work when the person requesting ot requiring it has to share the pain .
If they have to give up their evening , or weekend or holiday they are much less likely to ask others to - unless there is a good reason for it .
Hell , why stop at the immediate line manager .
If it 's important enough for me to lose my personal time I want a LOT of senior people to appreciate the sacrifice I 'm making .
What brings it home more than if they have to make the same sacrifices too ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Make the manager stay on - it stops frivolous requests for extra or unscheduled or "seemed like a good idea" work when the person requesting ot requiring it has to share the pain.
If they have to give up their evening, or weekend or holiday they are much less likely to ask others to - unless there is a good reason for it.
Hell, why stop at the immediate line manager.
If it's important enough for me to lose my personal time I want a LOT of senior people to appreciate the sacrifice I'm making.
What brings it home more than if they have to make the same sacrifices too?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506362</id>
	<title>Re:It's called a team</title>
	<author>nine-times</author>
	<datestamp>1261301580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Though, being a manager and staying late with your developers, your first priority shouldn't be riding them but play a support role.  What do they need to get the job done? What can you do to remove obstacles from their way?</p></div><p>That sounds to me like what a manager should be doing anyway, even if no one is staying late.  At least, if you assume for the sake of argument that you have a good team made of people who understand their jobs, then riding them to make sure they do their job shouldn't be something you have to do too much of.  A manager's job should generally be more about removing obstacles that aren't part of the workers' jobs so that the workers can focus on doing their jobs.
</p><p>But to the question at hand, I say yes, stay late with your workers.  As a manager, I pretty well try to be the first one in and the last one to leave.  I figure it's good for morale.  I don't like to ask people to do things that I'm not willing to do myself.  If someone asked me to put in some hard work late into the night, I wouldn't appreciate that person immediately going home to their own soft bed.
</p><p>That doesn't mean you're going to do much.  It might just mean that you make it clear that you're there in case anyone needs anything, and then you go and sit at your desk and kill time.  You're there to help, not to keep them on task.  In fact, you may want to work on lightening the mood, keeping people relaxed, and making sure they feel appreciated for their extra work.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Though , being a manager and staying late with your developers , your first priority should n't be riding them but play a support role .
What do they need to get the job done ?
What can you do to remove obstacles from their way ? That sounds to me like what a manager should be doing anyway , even if no one is staying late .
At least , if you assume for the sake of argument that you have a good team made of people who understand their jobs , then riding them to make sure they do their job should n't be something you have to do too much of .
A manager 's job should generally be more about removing obstacles that are n't part of the workers ' jobs so that the workers can focus on doing their jobs .
But to the question at hand , I say yes , stay late with your workers .
As a manager , I pretty well try to be the first one in and the last one to leave .
I figure it 's good for morale .
I do n't like to ask people to do things that I 'm not willing to do myself .
If someone asked me to put in some hard work late into the night , I would n't appreciate that person immediately going home to their own soft bed .
That does n't mean you 're going to do much .
It might just mean that you make it clear that you 're there in case anyone needs anything , and then you go and sit at your desk and kill time .
You 're there to help , not to keep them on task .
In fact , you may want to work on lightening the mood , keeping people relaxed , and making sure they feel appreciated for their extra work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Though, being a manager and staying late with your developers, your first priority shouldn't be riding them but play a support role.
What do they need to get the job done?
What can you do to remove obstacles from their way?That sounds to me like what a manager should be doing anyway, even if no one is staying late.
At least, if you assume for the sake of argument that you have a good team made of people who understand their jobs, then riding them to make sure they do their job shouldn't be something you have to do too much of.
A manager's job should generally be more about removing obstacles that aren't part of the workers' jobs so that the workers can focus on doing their jobs.
But to the question at hand, I say yes, stay late with your workers.
As a manager, I pretty well try to be the first one in and the last one to leave.
I figure it's good for morale.
I don't like to ask people to do things that I'm not willing to do myself.
If someone asked me to put in some hard work late into the night, I wouldn't appreciate that person immediately going home to their own soft bed.
That doesn't mean you're going to do much.
It might just mean that you make it clear that you're there in case anyone needs anything, and then you go and sit at your desk and kill time.
You're there to help, not to keep them on task.
In fact, you may want to work on lightening the mood, keeping people relaxed, and making sure they feel appreciated for their extra work.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505588</id>
	<title>Real Time Coding</title>
	<author>theArtificial</author>
	<datestamp>1261338660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I can relate to evenings like this. Two lines I will never forget:<br> <br>

"Where we at on this?"<br>
"Let's see it!"<br> <br>

I think one of the other lines that really stuck with me/irritated me was "Lets table this". I am glad to have moved on. I'm sure there must be some other lines used by other managers. Lets hear it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. =)</htmltext>
<tokenext>I can relate to evenings like this .
Two lines I will never forget : " Where we at on this ?
" " Let 's see it !
" I think one of the other lines that really stuck with me/irritated me was " Lets table this " .
I am glad to have moved on .
I 'm sure there must be some other lines used by other managers .
Lets hear it / .
= )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can relate to evenings like this.
Two lines I will never forget: 

"Where we at on this?
"
"Let's see it!
" 

I think one of the other lines that really stuck with me/irritated me was "Lets table this".
I am glad to have moved on.
I'm sure there must be some other lines used by other managers.
Lets hear it /.
=)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30506238</id>
	<title>Difficult choice</title>
	<author>genner</author>
	<datestamp>1261300380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>On the one hand I like to see them suffer. On the other hand I won't get antyhing done. <br>
If only we could convince them to go somewhere else to be tortured.</htmltext>
<tokenext>On the one hand I like to see them suffer .
On the other hand I wo n't get antyhing done .
If only we could convince them to go somewhere else to be tortured .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On the one hand I like to see them suffer.
On the other hand I won't get antyhing done.
If only we could convince them to go somewhere else to be tortured.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505574</id>
	<title>Yes</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261338600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes -- and pizza is all the better. It's great to know that the challenge is being shared, IF it's a healthy, collaborative effort.</p><p>OTOH, if it's an over-the-shoulder kind of assistance, that's rather frustrating. Not so generative, and it's simple enough to know the difference... </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes -- and pizza is all the better .
It 's great to know that the challenge is being shared , IF it 's a healthy , collaborative effort.OTOH , if it 's an over-the-shoulder kind of assistance , that 's rather frustrating .
Not so generative , and it 's simple enough to know the difference.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes -- and pizza is all the better.
It's great to know that the challenge is being shared, IF it's a healthy, collaborative effort.OTOH, if it's an over-the-shoulder kind of assistance, that's rather frustrating.
Not so generative, and it's simple enough to know the difference... </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_20_1656248.30505914</id>
	<title>Be specific with opinion article author</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1261341060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why write "a verteran developer" instead of "Eric Spiegel, veteran developer"?  I would like to click on links because I have information leading me to click on them, not because I am curious after being baited with lack of information.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why write " a verteran developer " instead of " Eric Spiegel , veteran developer " ?
I would like to click on links because I have information leading me to click on them , not because I am curious after being baited with lack of information .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why write "a verteran developer" instead of "Eric Spiegel, veteran developer"?
I would like to click on links because I have information leading me to click on them, not because I am curious after being baited with lack of information.</sentencetext>
</comment>
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