<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_12_08_1759224</id>
	<title>Saying No To Promotions Away From Tech?</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1260296280000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>lunchlady55 writes <i>"I have been happily working for my current employer for five years.  After moving up the ranks within my department from Intern to Technical Lead, a new manager essentially told me that I have to move into a different role, oriented toward 'administrative duties and management.'  We are a 24x7 shop, and will now be required to work five 8-hour days rather than four 10-hour days and be on call during the other two days of the week. Every week. Including holidays. My question is: have any Slashdotters been forced into a non-technical role, and how did it work out?  Has anyone said 'No thanks' to this kind of promotion and managed to keep their jobs?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>lunchlady55 writes " I have been happily working for my current employer for five years .
After moving up the ranks within my department from Intern to Technical Lead , a new manager essentially told me that I have to move into a different role , oriented toward 'administrative duties and management .
' We are a 24x7 shop , and will now be required to work five 8-hour days rather than four 10-hour days and be on call during the other two days of the week .
Every week .
Including holidays .
My question is : have any Slashdotters been forced into a non-technical role , and how did it work out ?
Has anyone said 'No thanks ' to this kind of promotion and managed to keep their jobs ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>lunchlady55 writes "I have been happily working for my current employer for five years.
After moving up the ranks within my department from Intern to Technical Lead, a new manager essentially told me that I have to move into a different role, oriented toward 'administrative duties and management.
'  We are a 24x7 shop, and will now be required to work five 8-hour days rather than four 10-hour days and be on call during the other two days of the week.
Every week.
Including holidays.
My question is: have any Slashdotters been forced into a non-technical role, and how did it work out?
Has anyone said 'No thanks' to this kind of promotion and managed to keep their jobs?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30373434</id>
	<title>Academia vs. Business</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260285600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>http://www.xkcd.com/664/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //www.xkcd.com/664/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://www.xkcd.com/664/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369876</id>
	<title>Re:Wow, where to start</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260264480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>As a manager, at some point you're going to be in a position where you either have to dick someone or take a bullet.  If you're okay with that decision, then go for it.</p></div><p>Heat is work and work's a curse<br>And all the heat in the universe<br>Is gonna cool down,<br>'Cos it can't increase<br>Then there'll be no more work<br>And there'll be perfect peace<br>Really?<br>Yeah, that's entropy, Man.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As a manager , at some point you 're going to be in a position where you either have to dick someone or take a bullet .
If you 're okay with that decision , then go for it.Heat is work and work 's a curseAnd all the heat in the universeIs gon na cool down,'Cos it ca n't increaseThen there 'll be no more workAnd there 'll be perfect peaceReally ? Yeah , that 's entropy , Man .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a manager, at some point you're going to be in a position where you either have to dick someone or take a bullet.
If you're okay with that decision, then go for it.Heat is work and work's a curseAnd all the heat in the universeIs gonna cool down,'Cos it can't increaseThen there'll be no more workAnd there'll be perfect peaceReally?Yeah, that's entropy, Man.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368578</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369084</id>
	<title>Name your price...</title>
	<author>johnlcallaway</author>
	<datestamp>1260304140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I was asked to move from a webmaster/developer role to an Oracle DBA role around 1998 when one of the DBAs left.  At first, I said no because I felt it restricted my career path<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. there are a lot fewer DBAs than Webmasters, and at the time the field was new enough that experience in any single environment wasn't as critical as it is now.  They countered with 'what would it take', so I requested a 20\% raise.
<br> <br>
And got it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....
<br> <br>
Less than a year later I left the company and went to a job where I was an HPUX admin/Sybase DBA and commanded an even higher salary.
<br> <br>
Change can be good....
<br> <br>
A couple of years ago I applied for a management job in a 4,000 employee company and took it without a raise in pay. I hated it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. it was babysitting mostly.  The icing on the cake was when one lady came in and told me 'Pam doesn't like me'.  I wanted to tell her to shut the fuck up and get back to work, but you can't do that today.
<br> <br>
After a year of that I took a job with a local company as a developer, and accepted a 10\% cut in pay to work for a 50 person, family run business. I love my job now and am good enough I rarely put in more than 40 hours/week.
<br> <br>
I learned from experience that I am willing to do a job I don't want as long as I'm paid well for my misery. And I'm willing to take a dream job for less money as long as I enjoy going to work each day.
<br> <br>
But taking a job I don't like for pay that doesn't make it worthwhile when there are other options<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... sucks.
<br> <br>
Choose wisely my friend....</htmltext>
<tokenext>I was asked to move from a webmaster/developer role to an Oracle DBA role around 1998 when one of the DBAs left .
At first , I said no because I felt it restricted my career path .. there are a lot fewer DBAs than Webmasters , and at the time the field was new enough that experience in any single environment was n't as critical as it is now .
They countered with 'what would it take ' , so I requested a 20 \ % raise .
And got it ... . Less than a year later I left the company and went to a job where I was an HPUX admin/Sybase DBA and commanded an even higher salary .
Change can be good... . A couple of years ago I applied for a management job in a 4,000 employee company and took it without a raise in pay .
I hated it .. it was babysitting mostly .
The icing on the cake was when one lady came in and told me 'Pam does n't like me' .
I wanted to tell her to shut the fuck up and get back to work , but you ca n't do that today .
After a year of that I took a job with a local company as a developer , and accepted a 10 \ % cut in pay to work for a 50 person , family run business .
I love my job now and am good enough I rarely put in more than 40 hours/week .
I learned from experience that I am willing to do a job I do n't want as long as I 'm paid well for my misery .
And I 'm willing to take a dream job for less money as long as I enjoy going to work each day .
But taking a job I do n't like for pay that does n't make it worthwhile when there are other options ... sucks . Choose wisely my friend... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was asked to move from a webmaster/developer role to an Oracle DBA role around 1998 when one of the DBAs left.
At first, I said no because I felt it restricted my career path .. there are a lot fewer DBAs than Webmasters, and at the time the field was new enough that experience in any single environment wasn't as critical as it is now.
They countered with 'what would it take', so I requested a 20\% raise.
And got it ....
 
Less than a year later I left the company and went to a job where I was an HPUX admin/Sybase DBA and commanded an even higher salary.
Change can be good....
 
A couple of years ago I applied for a management job in a 4,000 employee company and took it without a raise in pay.
I hated it .. it was babysitting mostly.
The icing on the cake was when one lady came in and told me 'Pam doesn't like me'.
I wanted to tell her to shut the fuck up and get back to work, but you can't do that today.
After a year of that I took a job with a local company as a developer, and accepted a 10\% cut in pay to work for a 50 person, family run business.
I love my job now and am good enough I rarely put in more than 40 hours/week.
I learned from experience that I am willing to do a job I don't want as long as I'm paid well for my misery.
And I'm willing to take a dream job for less money as long as I enjoy going to work each day.
But taking a job I don't like for pay that doesn't make it worthwhile when there are other options ... sucks.
 
Choose wisely my friend....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30370422</id>
	<title>staying put is probably a poor option</title>
	<author>drteknikal</author>
	<datestamp>1260267180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I faced a choice under different, less immediate, and better circumstances. I had to choose between a career path that lead to management, and a career path that lead into a narrow technical specialty. Make sure you understand the fork before you.</p><p>My observation has been that once a company tries to push you into management, you either go into management or your career path will suffer. Time in position, rather than age, is what prompts most companies to see "failure to advance" where employees may see "comfortable in position." Starting over resets the clock, somewhere else.</p><p>To be fair, companies look at these long term employees, see the amount of organizational experience, and want to leverage that by promotion. Realize that these are very common pressures, and you'll likely encounter similar circumstances repeatedly over time if you choose to remain below management.</p><p>That said, taking the plunge into management might allow you to take your career to another level. If you fail, you'll probably be looking for work, but that's about the same likely result as staying, with more money and more experience on the way out. Failure under these circumstances will have very little effect on your ability to land another technical job, and might insulate against future attempts to promote you out of your comfort or skill zones.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I faced a choice under different , less immediate , and better circumstances .
I had to choose between a career path that lead to management , and a career path that lead into a narrow technical specialty .
Make sure you understand the fork before you.My observation has been that once a company tries to push you into management , you either go into management or your career path will suffer .
Time in position , rather than age , is what prompts most companies to see " failure to advance " where employees may see " comfortable in position .
" Starting over resets the clock , somewhere else.To be fair , companies look at these long term employees , see the amount of organizational experience , and want to leverage that by promotion .
Realize that these are very common pressures , and you 'll likely encounter similar circumstances repeatedly over time if you choose to remain below management.That said , taking the plunge into management might allow you to take your career to another level .
If you fail , you 'll probably be looking for work , but that 's about the same likely result as staying , with more money and more experience on the way out .
Failure under these circumstances will have very little effect on your ability to land another technical job , and might insulate against future attempts to promote you out of your comfort or skill zones .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I faced a choice under different, less immediate, and better circumstances.
I had to choose between a career path that lead to management, and a career path that lead into a narrow technical specialty.
Make sure you understand the fork before you.My observation has been that once a company tries to push you into management, you either go into management or your career path will suffer.
Time in position, rather than age, is what prompts most companies to see "failure to advance" where employees may see "comfortable in position.
" Starting over resets the clock, somewhere else.To be fair, companies look at these long term employees, see the amount of organizational experience, and want to leverage that by promotion.
Realize that these are very common pressures, and you'll likely encounter similar circumstances repeatedly over time if you choose to remain below management.That said, taking the plunge into management might allow you to take your career to another level.
If you fail, you'll probably be looking for work, but that's about the same likely result as staying, with more money and more experience on the way out.
Failure under these circumstances will have very little effect on your ability to land another technical job, and might insulate against future attempts to promote you out of your comfort or skill zones.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368512</id>
	<title>Ask your boss.....</title>
	<author>StikyPad</author>
	<datestamp>1260301620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It depends why you're getting "promoted."</p><p>If they feel you're incompetent, but a hard worker, then they might be trying to do you a favor by moving you into a different role where they feel you're better suited.  Your chances of keeping your existing position in this case are not very good.</p><p>Otherwise, you should be asking your boss, not Slashdot.  He's the only one who knows where he stands.  Try to find a middle ground between being a pussy and being a dick.  Tell him you appreciate the offer, but that you find a great deal of satisfaction in your current position.  Tell him you'd prefer to remain in that role, and ASK HIM "hypothetically, how would you feel if I declined the offer?"</p><p>Just like people who are actually <i>trying</i> to get promotions, the odds of getting what you want are much better if you actually ask.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It depends why you 're getting " promoted .
" If they feel you 're incompetent , but a hard worker , then they might be trying to do you a favor by moving you into a different role where they feel you 're better suited .
Your chances of keeping your existing position in this case are not very good.Otherwise , you should be asking your boss , not Slashdot .
He 's the only one who knows where he stands .
Try to find a middle ground between being a pussy and being a dick .
Tell him you appreciate the offer , but that you find a great deal of satisfaction in your current position .
Tell him you 'd prefer to remain in that role , and ASK HIM " hypothetically , how would you feel if I declined the offer ?
" Just like people who are actually trying to get promotions , the odds of getting what you want are much better if you actually ask .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It depends why you're getting "promoted.
"If they feel you're incompetent, but a hard worker, then they might be trying to do you a favor by moving you into a different role where they feel you're better suited.
Your chances of keeping your existing position in this case are not very good.Otherwise, you should be asking your boss, not Slashdot.
He's the only one who knows where he stands.
Try to find a middle ground between being a pussy and being a dick.
Tell him you appreciate the offer, but that you find a great deal of satisfaction in your current position.
Tell him you'd prefer to remain in that role, and ASK HIM "hypothetically, how would you feel if I declined the offer?
"Just like people who are actually trying to get promotions, the odds of getting what you want are much better if you actually ask.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369440</id>
	<title>Re:Negotiate</title>
	<author>Lumpy</author>
	<datestamp>1260305640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>2003 wants it's business model back.  In the tech world going management does not equal "big salaries"  I went from Senior IT lead to IT manager and made less if you calculate in hours.  I was pulling in 60 hour work weeks as top of the pile IT grunt, all that OT adds up fast.  As manager I got a 25\% increase and switched to Salaried Exempt.  I now work 60 hour weeks and get LESS cash.</p><p>If they are moving you from hourly to salaries ask for enough to make up the difference and then some.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>2003 wants it 's business model back .
In the tech world going management does not equal " big salaries " I went from Senior IT lead to IT manager and made less if you calculate in hours .
I was pulling in 60 hour work weeks as top of the pile IT grunt , all that OT adds up fast .
As manager I got a 25 \ % increase and switched to Salaried Exempt .
I now work 60 hour weeks and get LESS cash.If they are moving you from hourly to salaries ask for enough to make up the difference and then some .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>2003 wants it's business model back.
In the tech world going management does not equal "big salaries"  I went from Senior IT lead to IT manager and made less if you calculate in hours.
I was pulling in 60 hour work weeks as top of the pile IT grunt, all that OT adds up fast.
As manager I got a 25\% increase and switched to Salaried Exempt.
I now work 60 hour weeks and get LESS cash.If they are moving you from hourly to salaries ask for enough to make up the difference and then some.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368476</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30370620</id>
	<title>Re:A lot of bad suggestions...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260268320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Puppetman, in Canada, (province of Ontario at least) severance pay is at the company's discretion.  The company is only obligated to pay for the notice period.  The notice period is dependant on the employee's length of service.  There is no magical "one week/month's pay per year/decade/widgets" produced rule;<br>http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/termination.php</p><p>Severance pay is usually paid to soften the provberial blow of unemployment, (not all companies firing people are run by heartless d*cks) or as a CYA measure in case of a wrongful dismissal suit.</p><p>If your employer(s) have used a month/year ratio for pay, kudos to them.  But they don't have to.</p><p>Lunchlady55, I don't have an IT background, so I can't comment on the tech aspects of your new duties, but it looks like more than a few people see changes coming to your firm.  Get out ahead of the curve &amp; start looking to move on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Puppetman , in Canada , ( province of Ontario at least ) severance pay is at the company 's discretion .
The company is only obligated to pay for the notice period .
The notice period is dependant on the employee 's length of service .
There is no magical " one week/month 's pay per year/decade/widgets " produced rule ; http : //www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/termination.phpSeverance pay is usually paid to soften the provberial blow of unemployment , ( not all companies firing people are run by heartless d * cks ) or as a CYA measure in case of a wrongful dismissal suit.If your employer ( s ) have used a month/year ratio for pay , kudos to them .
But they do n't have to.Lunchlady55 , I do n't have an IT background , so I ca n't comment on the tech aspects of your new duties , but it looks like more than a few people see changes coming to your firm .
Get out ahead of the curve &amp; start looking to move on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Puppetman, in Canada, (province of Ontario at least) severance pay is at the company's discretion.
The company is only obligated to pay for the notice period.
The notice period is dependant on the employee's length of service.
There is no magical "one week/month's pay per year/decade/widgets" produced rule;http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/termination.phpSeverance pay is usually paid to soften the provberial blow of unemployment, (not all companies firing people are run by heartless d*cks) or as a CYA measure in case of a wrongful dismissal suit.If your employer(s) have used a month/year ratio for pay, kudos to them.
But they don't have to.Lunchlady55, I don't have an IT background, so I can't comment on the tech aspects of your new duties, but it looks like more than a few people see changes coming to your firm.
Get out ahead of the curve &amp; start looking to move on.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368420</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368448</id>
	<title>Re:You can't say NO</title>
	<author>MBGMorden</author>
	<datestamp>1260301380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Disagree. Presumably, they would need to fill the Tech Lead role once they promoted him, so his old job would need to be filled. Only a cartoonishly f'ed up company would bring in two outside hires just to spite a long-time employee who does not want to be a manager.</p></div><p>It really depends.  Particularly in the current environment, some companies are evaluating open positions on a case-by-case basis.  They won't be laying people off but when a position is vacated they look long and hard at it to see if they can really make due without it.  Sometimes they can, sometimes they can't, but it could very well be the case that the management position he's moving to is seen as essential while they may be looking at eliminating his old position entirely.  I've seen quite a bit of that where I'm at actually.  Things have slowed down to a point where some departments are overstaffed, and so most "promotions" and position changes are a nice way of them trying to move you somewhere useful rather than just getting rid of you entirely.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Disagree .
Presumably , they would need to fill the Tech Lead role once they promoted him , so his old job would need to be filled .
Only a cartoonishly f'ed up company would bring in two outside hires just to spite a long-time employee who does not want to be a manager.It really depends .
Particularly in the current environment , some companies are evaluating open positions on a case-by-case basis .
They wo n't be laying people off but when a position is vacated they look long and hard at it to see if they can really make due without it .
Sometimes they can , sometimes they ca n't , but it could very well be the case that the management position he 's moving to is seen as essential while they may be looking at eliminating his old position entirely .
I 've seen quite a bit of that where I 'm at actually .
Things have slowed down to a point where some departments are overstaffed , and so most " promotions " and position changes are a nice way of them trying to move you somewhere useful rather than just getting rid of you entirely .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Disagree.
Presumably, they would need to fill the Tech Lead role once they promoted him, so his old job would need to be filled.
Only a cartoonishly f'ed up company would bring in two outside hires just to spite a long-time employee who does not want to be a manager.It really depends.
Particularly in the current environment, some companies are evaluating open positions on a case-by-case basis.
They won't be laying people off but when a position is vacated they look long and hard at it to see if they can really make due without it.
Sometimes they can, sometimes they can't, but it could very well be the case that the management position he's moving to is seen as essential while they may be looking at eliminating his old position entirely.
I've seen quite a bit of that where I'm at actually.
Things have slowed down to a point where some departments are overstaffed, and so most "promotions" and position changes are a nice way of them trying to move you somewhere useful rather than just getting rid of you entirely.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368270</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30372398</id>
	<title>Work or life?</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1260277740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work hard, do a good job and people enjoy working with me. I have solved a lot of problems.</p><p>I work 4 10s, no weekends and rarly on call. If I am on call I get paid extra.</p><p>Yeah, it's a government job. The work isn't really challenging.</p><p>I do get to enjoy life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work hard , do a good job and people enjoy working with me .
I have solved a lot of problems.I work 4 10s , no weekends and rarly on call .
If I am on call I get paid extra.Yeah , it 's a government job .
The work is n't really challenging.I do get to enjoy life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work hard, do a good job and people enjoy working with me.
I have solved a lot of problems.I work 4 10s, no weekends and rarly on call.
If I am on call I get paid extra.Yeah, it's a government job.
The work isn't really challenging.I do get to enjoy life.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30373596</id>
	<title>Re:Just say "no" to dumbasses</title>
	<author>issaqua</author>
	<datestamp>1260287400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; If you're really good at what you do and like your job, it's time to say no.</p><p>Ah, here's the rub - are you prepared to go from the top of the heap in skills and confidence, to the bottom of the heap when you go to a management / "leadership" role?</p><p>Don't get me wrong, it can be a fantastic experience if you have the inclination and a good person you are reporting to (or a good mentor), but living hell if you don't.</p><p>Things that can be a real shock to the system from my experience were:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - You (mostly) don't "do" directly any more.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Feedback and satisfaction is now the result of others execution, not yours.  (much longer time between effort and result)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Learning to inspire desired results instead of doing is the ultimate challenge (IMHO)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Your primary interaction changes from (relatively) constant and reliable equipment, to people who can be irrational and unpredictable.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Learning to enjoy the thrills and excitement of HR and budget excitement.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Learning to walk the ropes of organisational politics</p><p>The biggest benefits imho of being in a leadership role are<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - You can encourage and direct growth of the people who work for you.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - You can achieve much more with the team than you can as an individual.</p><p>Coming back to the parent though, if you don't enjoy people stay away.  I think its the "Peter Principle" where people rise to their level of incompetence and I believe this happens when people stray too far from their passions (competences can almost always be built if you are prepared to do the hard yards).</p><p>Cheers,</p><p>-I.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; If you 're really good at what you do and like your job , it 's time to say no.Ah , here 's the rub - are you prepared to go from the top of the heap in skills and confidence , to the bottom of the heap when you go to a management / " leadership " role ? Do n't get me wrong , it can be a fantastic experience if you have the inclination and a good person you are reporting to ( or a good mentor ) , but living hell if you do n't.Things that can be a real shock to the system from my experience were :     - You ( mostly ) do n't " do " directly any more .
        - Feedback and satisfaction is now the result of others execution , not yours .
( much longer time between effort and result )         - Learning to inspire desired results instead of doing is the ultimate challenge ( IMHO )     - Your primary interaction changes from ( relatively ) constant and reliable equipment , to people who can be irrational and unpredictable .
    - Learning to enjoy the thrills and excitement of HR and budget excitement .
    - Learning to walk the ropes of organisational politicsThe biggest benefits imho of being in a leadership role are     - You can encourage and direct growth of the people who work for you .
    - You can achieve much more with the team than you can as an individual.Coming back to the parent though , if you do n't enjoy people stay away .
I think its the " Peter Principle " where people rise to their level of incompetence and I believe this happens when people stray too far from their passions ( competences can almost always be built if you are prepared to do the hard yards ) .Cheers,-I .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; If you're really good at what you do and like your job, it's time to say no.Ah, here's the rub - are you prepared to go from the top of the heap in skills and confidence, to the bottom of the heap when you go to a management / "leadership" role?Don't get me wrong, it can be a fantastic experience if you have the inclination and a good person you are reporting to (or a good mentor), but living hell if you don't.Things that can be a real shock to the system from my experience were:
    - You (mostly) don't "do" directly any more.
        - Feedback and satisfaction is now the result of others execution, not yours.
(much longer time between effort and result)
        - Learning to inspire desired results instead of doing is the ultimate challenge (IMHO)
    - Your primary interaction changes from (relatively) constant and reliable equipment, to people who can be irrational and unpredictable.
    - Learning to enjoy the thrills and excitement of HR and budget excitement.
    - Learning to walk the ropes of organisational politicsThe biggest benefits imho of being in a leadership role are
    - You can encourage and direct growth of the people who work for you.
    - You can achieve much more with the team than you can as an individual.Coming back to the parent though, if you don't enjoy people stay away.
I think its the "Peter Principle" where people rise to their level of incompetence and I believe this happens when people stray too far from their passions (competences can almost always be built if you are prepared to do the hard yards).Cheers,-I.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30371120</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30372174</id>
	<title>Re:Just say "no" to dumbasses</title>
	<author>DerekLyons</author>
	<datestamp>1260276360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>"Management" is code for "You're responsible when things go wrong"</p></div></blockquote><p>It's also code for "here's some power and authority to make things right".<br>
&nbsp; </p><blockquote><div><p>In fact, as long as I'm on a roll here, "No" is the most valuable word an employee has. Once they know you'll take a stand and won't be a doormat, they'll respect you and will think twice before trying to get you to clean up somebody else's mess.</p></div></blockquote><p>Or they'll tag you as problem and unambitious and you end up in a dead end - unpromotable and last in line to be considered for any raises, extras, or bennies (and the first out the door when the axe falls).  (I think the whole 'doormat' claim is the creation of people with serious self esteem problems anyhow.)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Management " is code for " You 're responsible when things go wrong " It 's also code for " here 's some power and authority to make things right " .
  In fact , as long as I 'm on a roll here , " No " is the most valuable word an employee has .
Once they know you 'll take a stand and wo n't be a doormat , they 'll respect you and will think twice before trying to get you to clean up somebody else 's mess.Or they 'll tag you as problem and unambitious and you end up in a dead end - unpromotable and last in line to be considered for any raises , extras , or bennies ( and the first out the door when the axe falls ) .
( I think the whole 'doormat ' claim is the creation of people with serious self esteem problems anyhow .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Management" is code for "You're responsible when things go wrong"It's also code for "here's some power and authority to make things right".
  In fact, as long as I'm on a roll here, "No" is the most valuable word an employee has.
Once they know you'll take a stand and won't be a doormat, they'll respect you and will think twice before trying to get you to clean up somebody else's mess.Or they'll tag you as problem and unambitious and you end up in a dead end - unpromotable and last in line to be considered for any raises, extras, or bennies (and the first out the door when the axe falls).
(I think the whole 'doormat' claim is the creation of people with serious self esteem problems anyhow.
)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30371120</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369272</id>
	<title>Re:Take it as long as they pay you an extra amount</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260304980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>"Take it if they are going to pay you extra to be on call."</i> <p>
Yep, it is all about money. Nothing says you can't tinker/dabble with tech if you want, but, having more money is always a good thing. Just make sure and negotiate what you think your time is worth if they do want you available and 'on call'. Negotiate that you get paid at least straight time if you do get called in after hours, that will help insure that you aren't called for something that really isn't needed. You can get OT even if you are salaried, I've done it before on W2 gigs....just make sure and negotiate it in there. My time is VERY valuable to me, I don't give it away for free, and I've noticed when they have to pay me extra to come in, I have to come in less often....<b>only</b> in emergencies.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Take it if they are going to pay you extra to be on call .
" Yep , it is all about money .
Nothing says you ca n't tinker/dabble with tech if you want , but , having more money is always a good thing .
Just make sure and negotiate what you think your time is worth if they do want you available and 'on call' .
Negotiate that you get paid at least straight time if you do get called in after hours , that will help insure that you are n't called for something that really is n't needed .
You can get OT even if you are salaried , I 've done it before on W2 gigs....just make sure and negotiate it in there .
My time is VERY valuable to me , I do n't give it away for free , and I 've noticed when they have to pay me extra to come in , I have to come in less often....only in emergencies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Take it if they are going to pay you extra to be on call.
" 
Yep, it is all about money.
Nothing says you can't tinker/dabble with tech if you want, but, having more money is always a good thing.
Just make sure and negotiate what you think your time is worth if they do want you available and 'on call'.
Negotiate that you get paid at least straight time if you do get called in after hours, that will help insure that you aren't called for something that really isn't needed.
You can get OT even if you are salaried, I've done it before on W2 gigs....just make sure and negotiate it in there.
My time is VERY valuable to me, I don't give it away for free, and I've noticed when they have to pay me extra to come in, I have to come in less often....only in emergencies.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368070</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369594</id>
	<title>Saying No</title>
	<author>bkr1\_2k</author>
	<datestamp>1260263160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Saying no isn't really that difficult.  Remember though, that doing so will pigeon hole you away from being given similar opportunities in the future.  I'd recommend talking to your supervisor and someone who is currently in a position similar to what you're being offered, and discuss the duties expected.  Treat it like a "mentoring" opportunity and make sure they understand that you are treating it as such.  If they feel you're seeking long term career advice (whether you take the position or turn it down) they're far more likely to view the situation favorably.  If you decide to turn the position down after weighing it a bit, make sure they understand you would still like to be considered for opportunities in the future should they arise.</p><p>As for being forcibly put into an effect 7 dahttp://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/12/08/1759224/Saying-No-To-Promotions-Away-From-Tech?art\_pos=2#y a week work schedule, I'd say no, with or without compensation adjustment.  I won't work for a company that tries to do that.  If they need people to work those hours, they should hire more people.  Other people have different opinions about that though.  If it's a <b>very</b> temporary thing, I'd consider it, with a written understanding that my time would be compensated either financially or with similar time off in the future when the "on-call" requirement can be met some other way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Saying no is n't really that difficult .
Remember though , that doing so will pigeon hole you away from being given similar opportunities in the future .
I 'd recommend talking to your supervisor and someone who is currently in a position similar to what you 're being offered , and discuss the duties expected .
Treat it like a " mentoring " opportunity and make sure they understand that you are treating it as such .
If they feel you 're seeking long term career advice ( whether you take the position or turn it down ) they 're far more likely to view the situation favorably .
If you decide to turn the position down after weighing it a bit , make sure they understand you would still like to be considered for opportunities in the future should they arise.As for being forcibly put into an effect 7 dahttp : //ask.slashdot.org/story/09/12/08/1759224/Saying-No-To-Promotions-Away-From-Tech ? art \ _pos = 2 # y a week work schedule , I 'd say no , with or without compensation adjustment .
I wo n't work for a company that tries to do that .
If they need people to work those hours , they should hire more people .
Other people have different opinions about that though .
If it 's a very temporary thing , I 'd consider it , with a written understanding that my time would be compensated either financially or with similar time off in the future when the " on-call " requirement can be met some other way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Saying no isn't really that difficult.
Remember though, that doing so will pigeon hole you away from being given similar opportunities in the future.
I'd recommend talking to your supervisor and someone who is currently in a position similar to what you're being offered, and discuss the duties expected.
Treat it like a "mentoring" opportunity and make sure they understand that you are treating it as such.
If they feel you're seeking long term career advice (whether you take the position or turn it down) they're far more likely to view the situation favorably.
If you decide to turn the position down after weighing it a bit, make sure they understand you would still like to be considered for opportunities in the future should they arise.As for being forcibly put into an effect 7 dahttp://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/12/08/1759224/Saying-No-To-Promotions-Away-From-Tech?art\_pos=2#y a week work schedule, I'd say no, with or without compensation adjustment.
I won't work for a company that tries to do that.
If they need people to work those hours, they should hire more people.
Other people have different opinions about that though.
If it's a very temporary thing, I'd consider it, with a written understanding that my time would be compensated either financially or with similar time off in the future when the "on-call" requirement can be met some other way.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30374080</id>
	<title>The Transfer from Tech to Admin</title>
	<author>k'orwyn</author>
	<datestamp>1260292860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I made the switch.  I went from the manager of a tech support desk to what was promised to be more of an administrative role.

I was layed off 3 months later.

I advise against it.  In my opinion, they've probably decided you make too much money (what happened in my case), so they're going to pass off your duties to someone who makes less.  Then they can eliminate your new position and tout it to upper-management as an extraneous position and a cost saving measure, thus screwing you without kissing you first.  No reach-arounds either.

Good luck on that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I made the switch .
I went from the manager of a tech support desk to what was promised to be more of an administrative role .
I was layed off 3 months later .
I advise against it .
In my opinion , they 've probably decided you make too much money ( what happened in my case ) , so they 're going to pass off your duties to someone who makes less .
Then they can eliminate your new position and tout it to upper-management as an extraneous position and a cost saving measure , thus screwing you without kissing you first .
No reach-arounds either .
Good luck on that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I made the switch.
I went from the manager of a tech support desk to what was promised to be more of an administrative role.
I was layed off 3 months later.
I advise against it.
In my opinion, they've probably decided you make too much money (what happened in my case), so they're going to pass off your duties to someone who makes less.
Then they can eliminate your new position and tout it to upper-management as an extraneous position and a cost saving measure, thus screwing you without kissing you first.
No reach-arounds either.
Good luck on that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368578</id>
	<title>Wow, where to start</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260301920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>My question is, have any Slashdotters been forced into a non-technical role, and how did it work out?</i>

</p><p>Badly.  I got pushed from the technical lead into a VP position managing that whole end of the business in a mid-cap company.  In that role I got pulled into budget battles, which are normal, relationship management with partners, also normal and locked into the quarterly numbers game, which means a lot of meetings with the auditors.  Too keep the technical aspects on track we had to bring in a new technical guy.  You can see where this is going.  I could have fired the new tech guy so I had a job to go back to when we streamlined after the initial development phase but it just didn't seem fair.  I got a nice bonus and severance, plus my options were golden, but I essentially worked myself out of a job and was penalized for hiring competent people.

</p><p>In that scenario you'll be unhappy if you do a bad job or if you do a really, really good job.  You'll put in a lot of extra hours, do a lot of extra traveling.  There were some perks I miss.  The secretary, the expense account, the $1,800 bar tabs, meetings on the golf course, the membership at the club and the options I cashed in.  Those eased the pain a bit.  But it doesn't sound like you get any of those perks.

</p><p> <i>Has anyone said 'No thanks' to this kind of promotion and managed to keep their jobs?"</i>

</p><p>After getting burned the first time, the next gig I went back to being a head down developer and stayed in my office, only coming out for coffee, to urinate and to feed.  I built three critical systems and was the only person the client wanted to work with.  I was that guy in Office Space.  I turned down promotions, turned in paperwork late, stood up mandatory meetings, re-wrote my performance eval when I didn't like it and just generally made the people dumb enough to accept the supervisor positions miserable.  Sometimes because I genuinely didn't like them, other times out of a perverse sense of tradition and once because I was being a royal dick.  Wish I had that one to do over.  But I got away with it.

</p><p>So all you have to decide is which job would you rather have?  As a manager, at some point you're going to be in a position where you either have to dick someone or take a bullet.  If you're okay with that decision, then go for it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My question is , have any Slashdotters been forced into a non-technical role , and how did it work out ?
Badly. I got pushed from the technical lead into a VP position managing that whole end of the business in a mid-cap company .
In that role I got pulled into budget battles , which are normal , relationship management with partners , also normal and locked into the quarterly numbers game , which means a lot of meetings with the auditors .
Too keep the technical aspects on track we had to bring in a new technical guy .
You can see where this is going .
I could have fired the new tech guy so I had a job to go back to when we streamlined after the initial development phase but it just did n't seem fair .
I got a nice bonus and severance , plus my options were golden , but I essentially worked myself out of a job and was penalized for hiring competent people .
In that scenario you 'll be unhappy if you do a bad job or if you do a really , really good job .
You 'll put in a lot of extra hours , do a lot of extra traveling .
There were some perks I miss .
The secretary , the expense account , the $ 1,800 bar tabs , meetings on the golf course , the membership at the club and the options I cashed in .
Those eased the pain a bit .
But it does n't sound like you get any of those perks .
Has anyone said 'No thanks ' to this kind of promotion and managed to keep their jobs ?
" After getting burned the first time , the next gig I went back to being a head down developer and stayed in my office , only coming out for coffee , to urinate and to feed .
I built three critical systems and was the only person the client wanted to work with .
I was that guy in Office Space .
I turned down promotions , turned in paperwork late , stood up mandatory meetings , re-wrote my performance eval when I did n't like it and just generally made the people dumb enough to accept the supervisor positions miserable .
Sometimes because I genuinely did n't like them , other times out of a perverse sense of tradition and once because I was being a royal dick .
Wish I had that one to do over .
But I got away with it .
So all you have to decide is which job would you rather have ?
As a manager , at some point you 're going to be in a position where you either have to dick someone or take a bullet .
If you 're okay with that decision , then go for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> My question is, have any Slashdotters been forced into a non-technical role, and how did it work out?
Badly.  I got pushed from the technical lead into a VP position managing that whole end of the business in a mid-cap company.
In that role I got pulled into budget battles, which are normal, relationship management with partners, also normal and locked into the quarterly numbers game, which means a lot of meetings with the auditors.
Too keep the technical aspects on track we had to bring in a new technical guy.
You can see where this is going.
I could have fired the new tech guy so I had a job to go back to when we streamlined after the initial development phase but it just didn't seem fair.
I got a nice bonus and severance, plus my options were golden, but I essentially worked myself out of a job and was penalized for hiring competent people.
In that scenario you'll be unhappy if you do a bad job or if you do a really, really good job.
You'll put in a lot of extra hours, do a lot of extra traveling.
There were some perks I miss.
The secretary, the expense account, the $1,800 bar tabs, meetings on the golf course, the membership at the club and the options I cashed in.
Those eased the pain a bit.
But it doesn't sound like you get any of those perks.
Has anyone said 'No thanks' to this kind of promotion and managed to keep their jobs?
"

After getting burned the first time, the next gig I went back to being a head down developer and stayed in my office, only coming out for coffee, to urinate and to feed.
I built three critical systems and was the only person the client wanted to work with.
I was that guy in Office Space.
I turned down promotions, turned in paperwork late, stood up mandatory meetings, re-wrote my performance eval when I didn't like it and just generally made the people dumb enough to accept the supervisor positions miserable.
Sometimes because I genuinely didn't like them, other times out of a perverse sense of tradition and once because I was being a royal dick.
Wish I had that one to do over.
But I got away with it.
So all you have to decide is which job would you rather have?
As a manager, at some point you're going to be in a position where you either have to dick someone or take a bullet.
If you're okay with that decision, then go for it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30375274</id>
	<title>Re:Just say "no" to dumbasses</title>
	<author>Xest</author>
	<datestamp>1259576520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"If you're really good at what you do and like your job, it's time to say no."</p><p>Without meaning to sound harsh to the guy I have to wonder if there's another side to this. Honestly, if you're good at your job then even the most incompetent of management wont want to move you away from it, they'll want to keep you in it to make them look good. Good managers that realise treating employees well by promoting rather than keeping them in a role to make them look good will recognise value in also ensuring they're promoting them to a job they'll enjoy and hence perform well in.</p><p>I can't help but think there's probably more to this story as promoting someone to a job they will not enjoy, whilst moving them out of a job they're good at and benefit the company in doesn't really make a lot of sense from the perspective of a good manager or a bad manager. I wouldn't be suprised if they're trying to move him into an administrative job, because they do not feel he is doing a good job in his current role, this is generally the only reason people get moved in this manner when if the guy was good at his job, the move would be detrimental to the company. I would wager this new manager is trying to make his mark by cleaning shop and improving the place as all new managers usually tend to try to do, albeit some more competently than others.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" If you 're really good at what you do and like your job , it 's time to say no .
" Without meaning to sound harsh to the guy I have to wonder if there 's another side to this .
Honestly , if you 're good at your job then even the most incompetent of management wont want to move you away from it , they 'll want to keep you in it to make them look good .
Good managers that realise treating employees well by promoting rather than keeping them in a role to make them look good will recognise value in also ensuring they 're promoting them to a job they 'll enjoy and hence perform well in.I ca n't help but think there 's probably more to this story as promoting someone to a job they will not enjoy , whilst moving them out of a job they 're good at and benefit the company in does n't really make a lot of sense from the perspective of a good manager or a bad manager .
I would n't be suprised if they 're trying to move him into an administrative job , because they do not feel he is doing a good job in his current role , this is generally the only reason people get moved in this manner when if the guy was good at his job , the move would be detrimental to the company .
I would wager this new manager is trying to make his mark by cleaning shop and improving the place as all new managers usually tend to try to do , albeit some more competently than others .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"If you're really good at what you do and like your job, it's time to say no.
"Without meaning to sound harsh to the guy I have to wonder if there's another side to this.
Honestly, if you're good at your job then even the most incompetent of management wont want to move you away from it, they'll want to keep you in it to make them look good.
Good managers that realise treating employees well by promoting rather than keeping them in a role to make them look good will recognise value in also ensuring they're promoting them to a job they'll enjoy and hence perform well in.I can't help but think there's probably more to this story as promoting someone to a job they will not enjoy, whilst moving them out of a job they're good at and benefit the company in doesn't really make a lot of sense from the perspective of a good manager or a bad manager.
I wouldn't be suprised if they're trying to move him into an administrative job, because they do not feel he is doing a good job in his current role, this is generally the only reason people get moved in this manner when if the guy was good at his job, the move would be detrimental to the company.
I would wager this new manager is trying to make his mark by cleaning shop and improving the place as all new managers usually tend to try to do, albeit some more competently than others.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30371120</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368476</id>
	<title>Negotiate</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260301500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you're being forcibly moved, try to negotiate for everything, including extra compensation for being on-call.</p><p>As for the managerial side, this is nothing new.  If you show a) competence, and b) any signs you don't have a serious attitude problem, it's expected.  Then, if you want to go back in a few years, it'll be based either on your job performance (or lack thereof), and whether you're okay with sacrificing larger salaries in the future.</p><p>Some people aren't cut out for management, for a variety of reasons, and they either go back to non-management, or transition careers.  It's no big deal these days.  40 years ago, different story;  there was a social stigma attached to switching companies more than a couple of times, or even worse, ending up in a completely new line of work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 're being forcibly moved , try to negotiate for everything , including extra compensation for being on-call.As for the managerial side , this is nothing new .
If you show a ) competence , and b ) any signs you do n't have a serious attitude problem , it 's expected .
Then , if you want to go back in a few years , it 'll be based either on your job performance ( or lack thereof ) , and whether you 're okay with sacrificing larger salaries in the future.Some people are n't cut out for management , for a variety of reasons , and they either go back to non-management , or transition careers .
It 's no big deal these days .
40 years ago , different story ; there was a social stigma attached to switching companies more than a couple of times , or even worse , ending up in a completely new line of work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you're being forcibly moved, try to negotiate for everything, including extra compensation for being on-call.As for the managerial side, this is nothing new.
If you show a) competence, and b) any signs you don't have a serious attitude problem, it's expected.
Then, if you want to go back in a few years, it'll be based either on your job performance (or lack thereof), and whether you're okay with sacrificing larger salaries in the future.Some people aren't cut out for management, for a variety of reasons, and they either go back to non-management, or transition careers.
It's no big deal these days.
40 years ago, different story;  there was a social stigma attached to switching companies more than a couple of times, or even worse, ending up in a completely new line of work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368070</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30371108</id>
	<title>Re:Negotiate</title>
	<author>mollog</author>
	<datestamp>1260270420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Parent has good advice. It would be a matter of what you are suited to do (management) and do you like or trust your new manager. If you don't trust the new manager, take the job and start looking for a new job.<br> <br>

Good luck.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Parent has good advice .
It would be a matter of what you are suited to do ( management ) and do you like or trust your new manager .
If you do n't trust the new manager , take the job and start looking for a new job .
Good luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Parent has good advice.
It would be a matter of what you are suited to do (management) and do you like or trust your new manager.
If you don't trust the new manager, take the job and start looking for a new job.
Good luck.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368476</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30375824</id>
	<title>Re:Ask your boss.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259585160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Try to find a middle ground between being a pussy and being a dick</p></div><p>Hermafrodite?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Try to find a middle ground between being a pussy and being a dickHermafrodite ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Try to find a middle ground between being a pussy and being a dickHermafrodite?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368512</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368938</id>
	<title>From Somebody Without a Job</title>
	<author>WebmasterNeal</author>
	<datestamp>1260303360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Like others have mentioned, see if you can get compensation for the extra time / new responsibilities. If not take the job and do what you have to. Just consider yourself fortunate to have a job. And remember, it's a lot easier to look for a new job while you already have one rather than if your unemployed.
<br> <br>
That is sort of the unfortunate thing about moving up the ladder is the higher you get, the less work you actually do and the more managing of others you do. Some people prefer to be the ones actually outputting work, while others don't mind getting paid a bit more and doing less of the day to day stuff.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Like others have mentioned , see if you can get compensation for the extra time / new responsibilities .
If not take the job and do what you have to .
Just consider yourself fortunate to have a job .
And remember , it 's a lot easier to look for a new job while you already have one rather than if your unemployed .
That is sort of the unfortunate thing about moving up the ladder is the higher you get , the less work you actually do and the more managing of others you do .
Some people prefer to be the ones actually outputting work , while others do n't mind getting paid a bit more and doing less of the day to day stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Like others have mentioned, see if you can get compensation for the extra time / new responsibilities.
If not take the job and do what you have to.
Just consider yourself fortunate to have a job.
And remember, it's a lot easier to look for a new job while you already have one rather than if your unemployed.
That is sort of the unfortunate thing about moving up the ladder is the higher you get, the less work you actually do and the more managing of others you do.
Some people prefer to be the ones actually outputting work, while others don't mind getting paid a bit more and doing less of the day to day stuff.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369628</id>
	<title>Evaluate your options</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260263280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I faced this choice I decided to interview at couple of companies for a technical role.  This allowed me to evaluate what alternative technical job options I had in the area and compared that to the managerial job that I was being offered.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I faced this choice I decided to interview at couple of companies for a technical role .
This allowed me to evaluate what alternative technical job options I had in the area and compared that to the managerial job that I was being offered .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I faced this choice I decided to interview at couple of companies for a technical role.
This allowed me to evaluate what alternative technical job options I had in the area and compared that to the managerial job that I was being offered.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369462</id>
	<title>Management != IT</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260305760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Managing IT has nothing to do with doing IT. Once you make this move, you may have a tough time going back. You will find yourself too busy working to continue learning. The job can be very stressful and not very intellectually stimulating.</p><p>Being responsible for other people's problems/mistakes/personal issues etc. is no fun. Making more money will not make up for it.</p><p>If you really want to make more money, switch to a new company. No matter how bad the economy is, it's still tough to find talented people. I doubt very much you will be shown the door if you refuse the offer, but if it comes to that, so what? Are you going to lose a pension or something?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Managing IT has nothing to do with doing IT .
Once you make this move , you may have a tough time going back .
You will find yourself too busy working to continue learning .
The job can be very stressful and not very intellectually stimulating.Being responsible for other people 's problems/mistakes/personal issues etc .
is no fun .
Making more money will not make up for it.If you really want to make more money , switch to a new company .
No matter how bad the economy is , it 's still tough to find talented people .
I doubt very much you will be shown the door if you refuse the offer , but if it comes to that , so what ?
Are you going to lose a pension or something ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Managing IT has nothing to do with doing IT.
Once you make this move, you may have a tough time going back.
You will find yourself too busy working to continue learning.
The job can be very stressful and not very intellectually stimulating.Being responsible for other people's problems/mistakes/personal issues etc.
is no fun.
Making more money will not make up for it.If you really want to make more money, switch to a new company.
No matter how bad the economy is, it's still tough to find talented people.
I doubt very much you will be shown the door if you refuse the offer, but if it comes to that, so what?
Are you going to lose a pension or something?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368072</id>
	<title>You can't say NO</title>
	<author>DigiShaman</author>
	<datestamp>1260300120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or you will be replaced by someone whome is currently a member of the 10+\% unemployment group. So ya, your fucked with pager duty.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or you will be replaced by someone whome is currently a member of the 10 + \ % unemployment group .
So ya , your fucked with pager duty .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or you will be replaced by someone whome is currently a member of the 10+\% unemployment group.
So ya, your fucked with pager duty.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369340</id>
	<title>Then what?</title>
	<author>bzzfzz</author>
	<datestamp>1260305280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I did this once.  Took a marketing role after political factors made it uncomfortable to stay in tech at my employer at the time.
<p>
The risk is in what happens after you're in the non-technical role for a few years.  In my case, with the marketing job, it was in the early 1990s and I ended up missing the transition from DOS and C to Windows and C++, because I was no longer doing any technical work.  Yet, I didn't have an MBA, and was never good enough at marketing to be able to make the kind of money I wanted when I moved to another company.
</p><p>
You can imagine how the interviews went when I was trying to get C++/Windows jobs, which was the shiny new thing back then.
</p><p>
So, my advice is that, like a chess game, you have to think a couple moves ahead and figure out what your choices will be like in 3-4 years.  What will this admin job prepare you for?  Who do you know who has moved into a better role after doing this type of job for a while?  Are you going to make friends in the industry in this job or just piss off the people you're supposed to be keeping tabs on?  Does this role tend to be filled on a revolving-door basis by recent ex-techies who can leverage their old skills or do people stay in the role for a while?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I did this once .
Took a marketing role after political factors made it uncomfortable to stay in tech at my employer at the time .
The risk is in what happens after you 're in the non-technical role for a few years .
In my case , with the marketing job , it was in the early 1990s and I ended up missing the transition from DOS and C to Windows and C + + , because I was no longer doing any technical work .
Yet , I did n't have an MBA , and was never good enough at marketing to be able to make the kind of money I wanted when I moved to another company .
You can imagine how the interviews went when I was trying to get C + + /Windows jobs , which was the shiny new thing back then .
So , my advice is that , like a chess game , you have to think a couple moves ahead and figure out what your choices will be like in 3-4 years .
What will this admin job prepare you for ?
Who do you know who has moved into a better role after doing this type of job for a while ?
Are you going to make friends in the industry in this job or just piss off the people you 're supposed to be keeping tabs on ?
Does this role tend to be filled on a revolving-door basis by recent ex-techies who can leverage their old skills or do people stay in the role for a while ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I did this once.
Took a marketing role after political factors made it uncomfortable to stay in tech at my employer at the time.
The risk is in what happens after you're in the non-technical role for a few years.
In my case, with the marketing job, it was in the early 1990s and I ended up missing the transition from DOS and C to Windows and C++, because I was no longer doing any technical work.
Yet, I didn't have an MBA, and was never good enough at marketing to be able to make the kind of money I wanted when I moved to another company.
You can imagine how the interviews went when I was trying to get C++/Windows jobs, which was the shiny new thing back then.
So, my advice is that, like a chess game, you have to think a couple moves ahead and figure out what your choices will be like in 3-4 years.
What will this admin job prepare you for?
Who do you know who has moved into a better role after doing this type of job for a while?
Are you going to make friends in the industry in this job or just piss off the people you're supposed to be keeping tabs on?
Does this role tend to be filled on a revolving-door basis by recent ex-techies who can leverage their old skills or do people stay in the role for a while?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368446</id>
	<title>Re:You can't say NO</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260301380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;Presumably, they would need to fill the Tech Lead role once they promoted him, so his old job would need to be filled.<br>Presume away, but you're incorrect. What management is telling you is that you are going to now work 7 days a week 365 days a year so you can perform all your current duties and add pointless meetings and shufling of papers to the task list.</p><p>&gt;Only a cartoonishly f'ed up company would bring in two outside hires just to spite a long-time employee who does not want to be a manager.<br>Oh naivete, you are hilarious yet frightening. Almost all American companies in the current age are the evil self-caricature you describe.</p><p>They want you to perform 2 jobs for hte price of one and join the Nervous Nellie I'm-A-Martyr ranks of mangement so they can use you as judas goat/corporate slave/target of blame. It's a time honored tradition in corporate America.<br>That doesn't mean you should refuse it. That does mean you should realize the company is  trying to maximize their profit on their investment in you. And you should do the same. After all, your engagement with the company is on a business basis. They are trying to squeeze you for every cent, you need to start playing the game to work as little as possible and make maximum use of your benefits.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; Presumably , they would need to fill the Tech Lead role once they promoted him , so his old job would need to be filled.Presume away , but you 're incorrect .
What management is telling you is that you are going to now work 7 days a week 365 days a year so you can perform all your current duties and add pointless meetings and shufling of papers to the task list. &gt; Only a cartoonishly f'ed up company would bring in two outside hires just to spite a long-time employee who does not want to be a manager.Oh naivete , you are hilarious yet frightening .
Almost all American companies in the current age are the evil self-caricature you describe.They want you to perform 2 jobs for hte price of one and join the Nervous Nellie I 'm-A-Martyr ranks of mangement so they can use you as judas goat/corporate slave/target of blame .
It 's a time honored tradition in corporate America.That does n't mean you should refuse it .
That does mean you should realize the company is trying to maximize their profit on their investment in you .
And you should do the same .
After all , your engagement with the company is on a business basis .
They are trying to squeeze you for every cent , you need to start playing the game to work as little as possible and make maximum use of your benefits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;Presumably, they would need to fill the Tech Lead role once they promoted him, so his old job would need to be filled.Presume away, but you're incorrect.
What management is telling you is that you are going to now work 7 days a week 365 days a year so you can perform all your current duties and add pointless meetings and shufling of papers to the task list.&gt;Only a cartoonishly f'ed up company would bring in two outside hires just to spite a long-time employee who does not want to be a manager.Oh naivete, you are hilarious yet frightening.
Almost all American companies in the current age are the evil self-caricature you describe.They want you to perform 2 jobs for hte price of one and join the Nervous Nellie I'm-A-Martyr ranks of mangement so they can use you as judas goat/corporate slave/target of blame.
It's a time honored tradition in corporate America.That doesn't mean you should refuse it.
That does mean you should realize the company is  trying to maximize their profit on their investment in you.
And you should do the same.
After all, your engagement with the company is on a business basis.
They are trying to squeeze you for every cent, you need to start playing the game to work as little as possible and make maximum use of your benefits.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368270</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369618</id>
	<title>Re:Negotiate</title>
	<author>idiotnot</author>
	<datestamp>1260263220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And I'd prefer to have the same stamina that I had when I was nineteen, too.  I mean, it'd be cool if I could get absolutely smashed, and be fine the next day.  I'm sure my SO would like it if I had the same stamina in the bedroom, too.  I can't and I don't.  There's a natural progression when it comes to a career, and being involved with managing other people is a part of that.</p><p><i>I'd probably ask about what my new job duties would be, and see if they fit with my desires, otherwise, it's a shot in the dark as to whether to take the job, fight to keep your current position, or find a new employer.</i></p><p>And be willing to accept whatever trade-offs come with it?  That includes salary stagnation, and competition with younger people who might be more intellectually curious than you are, and expect a much smaller salary than you do.</p><p>One of the things that constantly bothers me when interviewing older workers is the fact that, in many ways, tech is no longer a joy....it's all job.  I've found myself in that position more and more as I get older;  building a Linux kernel is now tedious instead of exciting.  I haven't had a GNU/Hurd install in years.</p><p>Interviewed a CCNA one time;  when I asked him some questions about IPv6, he got defensive, then tried to convince me that it was never going to happen, and anyone looking at it was wasting his time.....</p><p>Needless to say, we had requirements from the customer for IPv6 work, and were trying to put together a team to address the project.  Ended up hiring a 24 year-old without a degree or a cert, who was genuinely interested in where the technology is headed.  Oh, and he wanted 60\% of the salary (even without the military retirement, which the old guy had coming in, too.).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And I 'd prefer to have the same stamina that I had when I was nineteen , too .
I mean , it 'd be cool if I could get absolutely smashed , and be fine the next day .
I 'm sure my SO would like it if I had the same stamina in the bedroom , too .
I ca n't and I do n't .
There 's a natural progression when it comes to a career , and being involved with managing other people is a part of that.I 'd probably ask about what my new job duties would be , and see if they fit with my desires , otherwise , it 's a shot in the dark as to whether to take the job , fight to keep your current position , or find a new employer.And be willing to accept whatever trade-offs come with it ?
That includes salary stagnation , and competition with younger people who might be more intellectually curious than you are , and expect a much smaller salary than you do.One of the things that constantly bothers me when interviewing older workers is the fact that , in many ways , tech is no longer a joy....it 's all job .
I 've found myself in that position more and more as I get older ; building a Linux kernel is now tedious instead of exciting .
I have n't had a GNU/Hurd install in years.Interviewed a CCNA one time ; when I asked him some questions about IPv6 , he got defensive , then tried to convince me that it was never going to happen , and anyone looking at it was wasting his time.....Needless to say , we had requirements from the customer for IPv6 work , and were trying to put together a team to address the project .
Ended up hiring a 24 year-old without a degree or a cert , who was genuinely interested in where the technology is headed .
Oh , and he wanted 60 \ % of the salary ( even without the military retirement , which the old guy had coming in , too .
) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And I'd prefer to have the same stamina that I had when I was nineteen, too.
I mean, it'd be cool if I could get absolutely smashed, and be fine the next day.
I'm sure my SO would like it if I had the same stamina in the bedroom, too.
I can't and I don't.
There's a natural progression when it comes to a career, and being involved with managing other people is a part of that.I'd probably ask about what my new job duties would be, and see if they fit with my desires, otherwise, it's a shot in the dark as to whether to take the job, fight to keep your current position, or find a new employer.And be willing to accept whatever trade-offs come with it?
That includes salary stagnation, and competition with younger people who might be more intellectually curious than you are, and expect a much smaller salary than you do.One of the things that constantly bothers me when interviewing older workers is the fact that, in many ways, tech is no longer a joy....it's all job.
I've found myself in that position more and more as I get older;  building a Linux kernel is now tedious instead of exciting.
I haven't had a GNU/Hurd install in years.Interviewed a CCNA one time;  when I asked him some questions about IPv6, he got defensive, then tried to convince me that it was never going to happen, and anyone looking at it was wasting his time.....Needless to say, we had requirements from the customer for IPv6 work, and were trying to put together a team to address the project.
Ended up hiring a 24 year-old without a degree or a cert, who was genuinely interested in where the technology is headed.
Oh, and he wanted 60\% of the salary (even without the military retirement, which the old guy had coming in, too.
).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369232</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368622</id>
	<title>TehPlannot?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260302040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This sounds like SOP for ThePlanet.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This sounds like SOP for ThePlanet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This sounds like SOP for ThePlanet.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369116</id>
	<title>A new manager?</title>
	<author>furby076</author>
	<datestamp>1260304260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You said a new manager.  Is this the only manager? Is this YOUR manager?  That makes a difference.  Does EVERYONE need to be on call 24/7? See about setting up schedules.  If there is 7 of you then each of you take one day a week to be on call and you rotate the days.  There are ways to work around things.<br> <br>

As far as getting promoted to management - no you don't have to take a promotion.  You can say "I appreciate the offer to increase my responsibilities, power and money but this will take me away from my passion in life and that is to do XYZ.  It will also hinder my ability to grow with this constantly changing field and eventually leave me ill-prepared to deal with new technologies".  This is a nice way to say "no i don't want to be an office-jockey dickwad". If your company is reasonable they will respect it and no harm done - again most people are not unreasonable.  If they are not then promptly update your resume' and look for a company that wants people to do a good job and do it for a long time...It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but many companies out there hate it when their employees - who are amazing at their jobs - turn and say "Oh i want to be promoted out of my work for something better"...now they have to find a replacement.<br> <br>

Even with 10\% unemployment there are plenty of jobs.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You said a new manager .
Is this the only manager ?
Is this YOUR manager ?
That makes a difference .
Does EVERYONE need to be on call 24/7 ?
See about setting up schedules .
If there is 7 of you then each of you take one day a week to be on call and you rotate the days .
There are ways to work around things .
As far as getting promoted to management - no you do n't have to take a promotion .
You can say " I appreciate the offer to increase my responsibilities , power and money but this will take me away from my passion in life and that is to do XYZ .
It will also hinder my ability to grow with this constantly changing field and eventually leave me ill-prepared to deal with new technologies " .
This is a nice way to say " no i do n't want to be an office-jockey dickwad " .
If your company is reasonable they will respect it and no harm done - again most people are not unreasonable .
If they are not then promptly update your resume ' and look for a company that wants people to do a good job and do it for a long time...It should n't be a surprise to anyone , but many companies out there hate it when their employees - who are amazing at their jobs - turn and say " Oh i want to be promoted out of my work for something better " ...now they have to find a replacement .
Even with 10 \ % unemployment there are plenty of jobs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You said a new manager.
Is this the only manager?
Is this YOUR manager?
That makes a difference.
Does EVERYONE need to be on call 24/7?
See about setting up schedules.
If there is 7 of you then each of you take one day a week to be on call and you rotate the days.
There are ways to work around things.
As far as getting promoted to management - no you don't have to take a promotion.
You can say "I appreciate the offer to increase my responsibilities, power and money but this will take me away from my passion in life and that is to do XYZ.
It will also hinder my ability to grow with this constantly changing field and eventually leave me ill-prepared to deal with new technologies".
This is a nice way to say "no i don't want to be an office-jockey dickwad".
If your company is reasonable they will respect it and no harm done - again most people are not unreasonable.
If they are not then promptly update your resume' and look for a company that wants people to do a good job and do it for a long time...It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but many companies out there hate it when their employees - who are amazing at their jobs - turn and say "Oh i want to be promoted out of my work for something better"...now they have to find a replacement.
Even with 10\% unemployment there are plenty of jobs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369144</id>
	<title>Do slashdotters read?</title>
	<author>MrSmith0011000100110</author>
	<datestamp>1260304320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The OP was asking about basically moving from Administrator to Engineer.  Less hands-on responsibilities and more documentation and organization responsibilities.  I was just offered such a position, punked out and took it because I'd rather be an employed punk than an unemployed martyr.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The OP was asking about basically moving from Administrator to Engineer .
Less hands-on responsibilities and more documentation and organization responsibilities .
I was just offered such a position , punked out and took it because I 'd rather be an employed punk than an unemployed martyr .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The OP was asking about basically moving from Administrator to Engineer.
Less hands-on responsibilities and more documentation and organization responsibilities.
I was just offered such a position, punked out and took it because I'd rather be an employed punk than an unemployed martyr.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369232</id>
	<title>Re:Negotiate</title>
	<author>drakaan</author>
	<datestamp>1260304620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While interesting, it seemed to me that the question was more of "How do I avoid being forced to be a manager instead of a tech?"</p><p>While it's true that some people aren't cut out for management, that says nothing about what they want to do as a day-to-day job.  Managing people is a lot different from onsite support for servers and network gear.  If you prefer the latter to the former, a "promotion" to manager may seem like 7 kinds of hell.</p><p>I'd probably ask about what my new job duties would be, and see if they fit with my desires, otherwise, it's a shot in the dark as to whether to take the job, fight to keep your current position, or find a new employer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While interesting , it seemed to me that the question was more of " How do I avoid being forced to be a manager instead of a tech ?
" While it 's true that some people are n't cut out for management , that says nothing about what they want to do as a day-to-day job .
Managing people is a lot different from onsite support for servers and network gear .
If you prefer the latter to the former , a " promotion " to manager may seem like 7 kinds of hell.I 'd probably ask about what my new job duties would be , and see if they fit with my desires , otherwise , it 's a shot in the dark as to whether to take the job , fight to keep your current position , or find a new employer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While interesting, it seemed to me that the question was more of "How do I avoid being forced to be a manager instead of a tech?
"While it's true that some people aren't cut out for management, that says nothing about what they want to do as a day-to-day job.
Managing people is a lot different from onsite support for servers and network gear.
If you prefer the latter to the former, a "promotion" to manager may seem like 7 kinds of hell.I'd probably ask about what my new job duties would be, and see if they fit with my desires, otherwise, it's a shot in the dark as to whether to take the job, fight to keep your current position, or find a new employer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368476</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368398</id>
	<title>I want to, but</title>
	<author>Prien715</author>
	<datestamp>1260301260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"I'd really like to take this job, but I have family obligations that would prevent me from being on call during most weekends, is that OK?"</p><p>That should be your response.  Come up with some good or BS reason why you can't work Friday or be on call during weekends.  Then compromise</p><p>You know, you visit your parents in Timbuktu on weekends 3 hours away and can't be on call then since there's no reception.  If he's OK with that, then just go home and turn your phone off on weekends...whether you visit your parents or not.  And if you still have to work some weekends, OK, but at least now it's not the norm.</p><p>If he can't work with your needs, he'll probably keep you at your current post but at least here you're meeting him half-way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" I 'd really like to take this job , but I have family obligations that would prevent me from being on call during most weekends , is that OK ?
" That should be your response .
Come up with some good or BS reason why you ca n't work Friday or be on call during weekends .
Then compromiseYou know , you visit your parents in Timbuktu on weekends 3 hours away and ca n't be on call then since there 's no reception .
If he 's OK with that , then just go home and turn your phone off on weekends...whether you visit your parents or not .
And if you still have to work some weekends , OK , but at least now it 's not the norm.If he ca n't work with your needs , he 'll probably keep you at your current post but at least here you 're meeting him half-way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"I'd really like to take this job, but I have family obligations that would prevent me from being on call during most weekends, is that OK?
"That should be your response.
Come up with some good or BS reason why you can't work Friday or be on call during weekends.
Then compromiseYou know, you visit your parents in Timbuktu on weekends 3 hours away and can't be on call then since there's no reception.
If he's OK with that, then just go home and turn your phone off on weekends...whether you visit your parents or not.
And if you still have to work some weekends, OK, but at least now it's not the norm.If he can't work with your needs, he'll probably keep you at your current post but at least here you're meeting him half-way.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30373114</id>
	<title>Enjoy your last cold beer...</title>
	<author>Spykk</author>
	<datestamp>1260283080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I used to be in a position with a rotating on call schedule. Someone was always on call, but I was only on call one weekend out of five. The problem with being on call is that you are not allowed to drink alcohol as you may need to drive somewhere in an emergency.<br>If your employer expects you to be on call every day does that mean they are effectively barring you from drinking? It would take a very large paycheck to put me in a position where I could never enjoy a beer with dinner again...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I used to be in a position with a rotating on call schedule .
Someone was always on call , but I was only on call one weekend out of five .
The problem with being on call is that you are not allowed to drink alcohol as you may need to drive somewhere in an emergency.If your employer expects you to be on call every day does that mean they are effectively barring you from drinking ?
It would take a very large paycheck to put me in a position where I could never enjoy a beer with dinner again.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used to be in a position with a rotating on call schedule.
Someone was always on call, but I was only on call one weekend out of five.
The problem with being on call is that you are not allowed to drink alcohol as you may need to drive somewhere in an emergency.If your employer expects you to be on call every day does that mean they are effectively barring you from drinking?
It would take a very large paycheck to put me in a position where I could never enjoy a beer with dinner again...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30370302</id>
	<title>Re:Didn't Work For Me</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260266760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Listen to this advice.  Assuming you are "at-will" employed, i.e. no contract, then most things can happen.  In no way imply you are quitting.  In fact, state clearly that is not your intention.  If you are happy at your current role, tell them you are not interested in changing.  Simply do not agree to their terms, a calculated bluff.  The strategy is to either have them leave you alone or to terminate you.  At which point you can collect severance and/or unemployment benefits.  If you quit, you get nothing.  In the meantime, you should spend the next few hours preparing your resume and cover letter.  From experience, you should always keep it updated.  You should always keep an eye on the market and never be shy about sending a resume to a job offer that looks better than what you have.  You can be unemployed in a heartbeat and should be prepared.</p><p>Plan B.  Quietly take their changes and send out resumes.  I know a guy that got converted from salary to hourly.  He knew there was no fighting it so he accepted it and began a concerted effort in finding a better place to work.  That was me.  There are always better places to work, but they don't grow on trees and don't fall into your lap.</p><p>Further advice.  Do not worry about two weeks notice.  Companies generally don't give it when they let people go.  Don't leave at a time that leaves them hanging (don't be a dick), but don't be held to two weeks.  If that burns a bridge then the former employer is petty.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Listen to this advice .
Assuming you are " at-will " employed , i.e .
no contract , then most things can happen .
In no way imply you are quitting .
In fact , state clearly that is not your intention .
If you are happy at your current role , tell them you are not interested in changing .
Simply do not agree to their terms , a calculated bluff .
The strategy is to either have them leave you alone or to terminate you .
At which point you can collect severance and/or unemployment benefits .
If you quit , you get nothing .
In the meantime , you should spend the next few hours preparing your resume and cover letter .
From experience , you should always keep it updated .
You should always keep an eye on the market and never be shy about sending a resume to a job offer that looks better than what you have .
You can be unemployed in a heartbeat and should be prepared.Plan B. Quietly take their changes and send out resumes .
I know a guy that got converted from salary to hourly .
He knew there was no fighting it so he accepted it and began a concerted effort in finding a better place to work .
That was me .
There are always better places to work , but they do n't grow on trees and do n't fall into your lap.Further advice .
Do not worry about two weeks notice .
Companies generally do n't give it when they let people go .
Do n't leave at a time that leaves them hanging ( do n't be a dick ) , but do n't be held to two weeks .
If that burns a bridge then the former employer is petty .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Listen to this advice.
Assuming you are "at-will" employed, i.e.
no contract, then most things can happen.
In no way imply you are quitting.
In fact, state clearly that is not your intention.
If you are happy at your current role, tell them you are not interested in changing.
Simply do not agree to their terms, a calculated bluff.
The strategy is to either have them leave you alone or to terminate you.
At which point you can collect severance and/or unemployment benefits.
If you quit, you get nothing.
In the meantime, you should spend the next few hours preparing your resume and cover letter.
From experience, you should always keep it updated.
You should always keep an eye on the market and never be shy about sending a resume to a job offer that looks better than what you have.
You can be unemployed in a heartbeat and should be prepared.Plan B.  Quietly take their changes and send out resumes.
I know a guy that got converted from salary to hourly.
He knew there was no fighting it so he accepted it and began a concerted effort in finding a better place to work.
That was me.
There are always better places to work, but they don't grow on trees and don't fall into your lap.Further advice.
Do not worry about two weeks notice.
Companies generally don't give it when they let people go.
Don't leave at a time that leaves them hanging (don't be a dick), but don't be held to two weeks.
If that burns a bridge then the former employer is petty.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368368</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30374858</id>
	<title>Depends</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259612340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If your company is into the business of <i>selling software</i> stick to Technology.
<br>
If your company is into the business of <i>selling services</i> move to Management.
<br>
Cheers,</htmltext>
<tokenext>If your company is into the business of selling software stick to Technology .
If your company is into the business of selling services move to Management .
Cheers,</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If your company is into the business of selling software stick to Technology.
If your company is into the business of selling services move to Management.
Cheers,</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369672</id>
	<title>Re:Didn't Work For Me</title>
	<author>nacturation</author>
	<datestamp>1260263460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>the good news is I eventually realised that towing corporate lines wasn't for me</p></div><p>Unless you work on a tugboat, you're probably referring to "toeing the line" as in everybody get in formation and <a href="http://www.corbisimages.com/images/IH136995.jpg?size=67&amp;uid=AE1CBC08-CDC8-4894-A00A-487D3EA7110F" title="corbisimages.com">line up your toes</a> [corbisimages.com]... though these days that's in the metaphoric sense rather than the literal.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>the good news is I eventually realised that towing corporate lines was n't for meUnless you work on a tugboat , you 're probably referring to " toeing the line " as in everybody get in formation and line up your toes [ corbisimages.com ] ... though these days that 's in the metaphoric sense rather than the literal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the good news is I eventually realised that towing corporate lines wasn't for meUnless you work on a tugboat, you're probably referring to "toeing the line" as in everybody get in formation and line up your toes [corbisimages.com]... though these days that's in the metaphoric sense rather than the literal.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368368</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368070</id>
	<title>Take it as long as they pay you an extra amount</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260300120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Take it if they are going to pay you extra to be on call.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Take it if they are going to pay you extra to be on call .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Take it if they are going to pay you extra to be on call.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368702</id>
	<title>It depends...</title>
	<author>Simulant</author>
	<datestamp>1260302280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've turned down 3 or 4 promotions like this and have always kept my job.</p><p>I'm not saying it's a good idea, however.  At some point you may wish you took the promotion.   I'm wondering if I shouldn't have.  I guess it depends on what you want to do for the rest of your career.  Management is not necessarily  a bad thing to have on your resume.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've turned down 3 or 4 promotions like this and have always kept my job.I 'm not saying it 's a good idea , however .
At some point you may wish you took the promotion .
I 'm wondering if I should n't have .
I guess it depends on what you want to do for the rest of your career .
Management is not necessarily a bad thing to have on your resume .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've turned down 3 or 4 promotions like this and have always kept my job.I'm not saying it's a good idea, however.
At some point you may wish you took the promotion.
I'm wondering if I shouldn't have.
I guess it depends on what you want to do for the rest of your career.
Management is not necessarily  a bad thing to have on your resume.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368748</id>
	<title>I'd change the company... or maybe not.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260302520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not an anonymous coward, my name is Karel, just don't feel like I need to register for 1 reply.</p><p>If you're going to do "administrative tasks and management" for a group of highly educated IT professionals, then go for it, no question about it. You'll be in close contact with them (that's up to you) and will have the chance to keep your hand on the pulse.</p><p>If you're going to do the same for smiling guys at the other end of the world, then change your employer. There are companies that already understood the fact, that "cost saving" is not the right solution for their IT issues.</p><p>You won't keep your tech job, sorry. It will go to half educated idiots in India, whether you like it or not. (My personal experience.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not an anonymous coward , my name is Karel , just do n't feel like I need to register for 1 reply.If you 're going to do " administrative tasks and management " for a group of highly educated IT professionals , then go for it , no question about it .
You 'll be in close contact with them ( that 's up to you ) and will have the chance to keep your hand on the pulse.If you 're going to do the same for smiling guys at the other end of the world , then change your employer .
There are companies that already understood the fact , that " cost saving " is not the right solution for their IT issues.You wo n't keep your tech job , sorry .
It will go to half educated idiots in India , whether you like it or not .
( My personal experience .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not an anonymous coward, my name is Karel, just don't feel like I need to register for 1 reply.If you're going to do "administrative tasks and management" for a group of highly educated IT professionals, then go for it, no question about it.
You'll be in close contact with them (that's up to you) and will have the chance to keep your hand on the pulse.If you're going to do the same for smiling guys at the other end of the world, then change your employer.
There are companies that already understood the fact, that "cost saving" is not the right solution for their IT issues.You won't keep your tech job, sorry.
It will go to half educated idiots in India, whether you like it or not.
(My personal experience.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30370382</id>
	<title>Advance of Be Fired, the Accenture Way</title>
	<author>Kagato</author>
	<datestamp>1260267060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I had a chat with a fellow from Accenture about advancement in his organization.  Not only did he say there was plenty of room for it, but it was required.  In certain technical categories if you didn't move up the food chain they would terminate you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I had a chat with a fellow from Accenture about advancement in his organization .
Not only did he say there was plenty of room for it , but it was required .
In certain technical categories if you did n't move up the food chain they would terminate you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had a chat with a fellow from Accenture about advancement in his organization.
Not only did he say there was plenty of room for it, but it was required.
In certain technical categories if you didn't move up the food chain they would terminate you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30370806</id>
	<title>Lacking parameters</title>
	<author>mseeger</author>
	<datestamp>1260269160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hi,</p><p>for a detailed advice, there are too many parameters missing. So i have to stay on the general track:</p><p>1. Your wording seems to indicate you don't have a choice. The question would have been asked a different way if you had one.<br>2. My personal opinion: Every technical guy should try management at least once. Even if you hate the job, you may learn a lot of things that may help you in your relationship with future bosses.<br>3. Management is an ungrateful job: You can do everything for you subordinates, they will not thank it. If you stay in management, your job satisfaction must have a different source.<br>4. If you find not be suited to the job: Pull the plug yourself. Don't wait for anyone else to do it. The damage from the later one outweighs the salary from a weeks or months.</p><p>Have fun, Martin</p><p>P.S. My path was: Programmer -&gt; Consultant -&gt; Director -&gt; CEO -&gt; Sales. While i loved every technical aspects of the first two jobs, nothing beats sales. Being a sales guy with a heavy technical background is like being armed with an M16 on a medieval battlefield.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hi,for a detailed advice , there are too many parameters missing .
So i have to stay on the general track : 1 .
Your wording seems to indicate you do n't have a choice .
The question would have been asked a different way if you had one.2 .
My personal opinion : Every technical guy should try management at least once .
Even if you hate the job , you may learn a lot of things that may help you in your relationship with future bosses.3 .
Management is an ungrateful job : You can do everything for you subordinates , they will not thank it .
If you stay in management , your job satisfaction must have a different source.4 .
If you find not be suited to the job : Pull the plug yourself .
Do n't wait for anyone else to do it .
The damage from the later one outweighs the salary from a weeks or months.Have fun , MartinP.S .
My path was : Programmer - &gt; Consultant - &gt; Director - &gt; CEO - &gt; Sales .
While i loved every technical aspects of the first two jobs , nothing beats sales .
Being a sales guy with a heavy technical background is like being armed with an M16 on a medieval battlefield .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hi,for a detailed advice, there are too many parameters missing.
So i have to stay on the general track:1.
Your wording seems to indicate you don't have a choice.
The question would have been asked a different way if you had one.2.
My personal opinion: Every technical guy should try management at least once.
Even if you hate the job, you may learn a lot of things that may help you in your relationship with future bosses.3.
Management is an ungrateful job: You can do everything for you subordinates, they will not thank it.
If you stay in management, your job satisfaction must have a different source.4.
If you find not be suited to the job: Pull the plug yourself.
Don't wait for anyone else to do it.
The damage from the later one outweighs the salary from a weeks or months.Have fun, MartinP.S.
My path was: Programmer -&gt; Consultant -&gt; Director -&gt; CEO -&gt; Sales.
While i loved every technical aspects of the first two jobs, nothing beats sales.
Being a sales guy with a heavy technical background is like being armed with an M16 on a medieval battlefield.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368420</id>
	<title>A lot of bad suggestions...</title>
	<author>puppetman</author>
	<datestamp>1260301320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>She clearly doesn't want the management job, which is why she's asking the question. The question is, "Will she be fired" if she turns down the promotion.</p><p>First - where are you? In the US, in an at-will state? They can let you go pretty easily. In Canada, with nothing but great reviews (ie no reason to fire you)? Well, you'd get a month of severance for every year you worked at the company, maybe more if you can show you would have a hard time finding an equivalent job, or you are getting on in years. Somewhere in between? YMMV. If it will cost the company 6 months of salary, they will give careful consideration about letting you go.</p><p>Have you moved up because you are indispensable? You're a unique snowflake of competence? Well, I doubt they'll let you walk out the door. Are there 10 people in your company that can do what you do? A cog in the machine? They can easily let you go.</p><p>If you don't want to take the job (and it sounds like you don't), then review how vital you are to the company, and what it would cost them to lose you (in severance and lost expertise). If you aren't vital, and they can replace you, then you have to be prepared to be let go.</p><p>If it will cost them a large severance package, and you are valued and needed, you won't be.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>She clearly does n't want the management job , which is why she 's asking the question .
The question is , " Will she be fired " if she turns down the promotion.First - where are you ?
In the US , in an at-will state ?
They can let you go pretty easily .
In Canada , with nothing but great reviews ( ie no reason to fire you ) ?
Well , you 'd get a month of severance for every year you worked at the company , maybe more if you can show you would have a hard time finding an equivalent job , or you are getting on in years .
Somewhere in between ?
YMMV. If it will cost the company 6 months of salary , they will give careful consideration about letting you go.Have you moved up because you are indispensable ?
You 're a unique snowflake of competence ?
Well , I doubt they 'll let you walk out the door .
Are there 10 people in your company that can do what you do ?
A cog in the machine ?
They can easily let you go.If you do n't want to take the job ( and it sounds like you do n't ) , then review how vital you are to the company , and what it would cost them to lose you ( in severance and lost expertise ) .
If you are n't vital , and they can replace you , then you have to be prepared to be let go.If it will cost them a large severance package , and you are valued and needed , you wo n't be .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>She clearly doesn't want the management job, which is why she's asking the question.
The question is, "Will she be fired" if she turns down the promotion.First - where are you?
In the US, in an at-will state?
They can let you go pretty easily.
In Canada, with nothing but great reviews (ie no reason to fire you)?
Well, you'd get a month of severance for every year you worked at the company, maybe more if you can show you would have a hard time finding an equivalent job, or you are getting on in years.
Somewhere in between?
YMMV. If it will cost the company 6 months of salary, they will give careful consideration about letting you go.Have you moved up because you are indispensable?
You're a unique snowflake of competence?
Well, I doubt they'll let you walk out the door.
Are there 10 people in your company that can do what you do?
A cog in the machine?
They can easily let you go.If you don't want to take the job (and it sounds like you don't), then review how vital you are to the company, and what it would cost them to lose you (in severance and lost expertise).
If you aren't vital, and they can replace you, then you have to be prepared to be let go.If it will cost them a large severance package, and you are valued and needed, you won't be.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368896</id>
	<title>I was left with no choice!</title>
	<author>socz</author>
	<datestamp>1260303180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I had been with this company for 2-3 years when my site/location shut down. Fortunately for me my company has many clients, but not many of them had open positions. So when it was time for me to pack up and go elsewhere (in the company) I wasn't given many choices as to where I wanted to go. So after reviewing what they offered me, I understood that it really wasn't a choice at all. But more than anything it benefited my company and manager (of where they were pushing me off to).<br> <br>

So what it really comes down to I think, is weighing the benefits of taking such a position. I had stayed close home for several reasons (personal), and that is why I had never taken a better paying position that was considerably further. But where I ended up works out ok, is about the same distance from where I was at before, but takes a lot longer to get to. The pay is slightly better, traffic a lot worse, environment the same (great coworkers), work load is a little weird. Before, I was busy but doing other things, here I am fulfilling a role that is not mine to do. That could do me good some day as being offered employment by the client. So, all things considered this is acceptable for me.
<br> <br>
But it comes down to how much do you value your time? Are you willing to give up your free days to be on call? Is the pay worth it? Having had the same schedule (4 x 10 and on call) I didn't mind it. But then again I was younger, single and getting great money for what I did at the time.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I had been with this company for 2-3 years when my site/location shut down .
Fortunately for me my company has many clients , but not many of them had open positions .
So when it was time for me to pack up and go elsewhere ( in the company ) I was n't given many choices as to where I wanted to go .
So after reviewing what they offered me , I understood that it really was n't a choice at all .
But more than anything it benefited my company and manager ( of where they were pushing me off to ) .
So what it really comes down to I think , is weighing the benefits of taking such a position .
I had stayed close home for several reasons ( personal ) , and that is why I had never taken a better paying position that was considerably further .
But where I ended up works out ok , is about the same distance from where I was at before , but takes a lot longer to get to .
The pay is slightly better , traffic a lot worse , environment the same ( great coworkers ) , work load is a little weird .
Before , I was busy but doing other things , here I am fulfilling a role that is not mine to do .
That could do me good some day as being offered employment by the client .
So , all things considered this is acceptable for me .
But it comes down to how much do you value your time ?
Are you willing to give up your free days to be on call ?
Is the pay worth it ?
Having had the same schedule ( 4 x 10 and on call ) I did n't mind it .
But then again I was younger , single and getting great money for what I did at the time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had been with this company for 2-3 years when my site/location shut down.
Fortunately for me my company has many clients, but not many of them had open positions.
So when it was time for me to pack up and go elsewhere (in the company) I wasn't given many choices as to where I wanted to go.
So after reviewing what they offered me, I understood that it really wasn't a choice at all.
But more than anything it benefited my company and manager (of where they were pushing me off to).
So what it really comes down to I think, is weighing the benefits of taking such a position.
I had stayed close home for several reasons (personal), and that is why I had never taken a better paying position that was considerably further.
But where I ended up works out ok, is about the same distance from where I was at before, but takes a lot longer to get to.
The pay is slightly better, traffic a lot worse, environment the same (great coworkers), work load is a little weird.
Before, I was busy but doing other things, here I am fulfilling a role that is not mine to do.
That could do me good some day as being offered employment by the client.
So, all things considered this is acceptable for me.
But it comes down to how much do you value your time?
Are you willing to give up your free days to be on call?
Is the pay worth it?
Having had the same schedule (4 x 10 and on call) I didn't mind it.
But then again I was younger, single and getting great money for what I did at the time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368714</id>
	<title>Choose another career</title>
	<author>karcirate</author>
	<datestamp>1260302340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That's what I'm doing!

I decided my current career path (software engineer) will inevitably lead to this fate (management), so I am taking the bull by the horns; I am going to law school.  I figure that if I am going to hate my job, I may as well make a crapload of money doing it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's what I 'm doing !
I decided my current career path ( software engineer ) will inevitably lead to this fate ( management ) , so I am taking the bull by the horns ; I am going to law school .
I figure that if I am going to hate my job , I may as well make a crapload of money doing it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's what I'm doing!
I decided my current career path (software engineer) will inevitably lead to this fate (management), so I am taking the bull by the horns; I am going to law school.
I figure that if I am going to hate my job, I may as well make a crapload of money doing it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368804</id>
	<title>did it for 2 years then got another job, you can 2</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260302700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Developer(9 years) to IT manager (2 years).  Now I am a developer again.  Politics, paperwork and procedure did/do not engage my brain.  After a year I was appalled and waited for one more year to make my escape.  Much better role now.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Developer ( 9 years ) to IT manager ( 2 years ) .
Now I am a developer again .
Politics , paperwork and procedure did/do not engage my brain .
After a year I was appalled and waited for one more year to make my escape .
Much better role now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Developer(9 years) to IT manager (2 years).
Now I am a developer again.
Politics, paperwork and procedure did/do not engage my brain.
After a year I was appalled and waited for one more year to make my escape.
Much better role now.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30371488</id>
	<title>Don't be a fag</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260272280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't get a job where the high point of your day is eating two fucking donuts in the morning. If they don't let you keep your current job, tell them to kiss your ass. Then go do something else.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't get a job where the high point of your day is eating two fucking donuts in the morning .
If they do n't let you keep your current job , tell them to kiss your ass .
Then go do something else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't get a job where the high point of your day is eating two fucking donuts in the morning.
If they don't let you keep your current job, tell them to kiss your ass.
Then go do something else.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30370266</id>
	<title>24x7 Moving Away from Tech</title>
	<author>hackus</author>
	<datestamp>1260266640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, if it is 24x7, I would immediately demand 2 extra weeks paid vacation per year, and a tier one health plan.<br>(No deductables for anything, including prescriptions.)</p><p>After just 2 years of 24x7 calls, your health will be a lot worse.   Lots of studies show people who do not get good nights sleep have a DOUBLE the cancer risk, psychological problems and get the flu way way more often than people who get a good nights sleep.</p><p>Second I would demand a health spa at the place of work, cardio vascular machines, and a shower locker room facilities simply because rushing out of bed, and going to work and not looking professional if the on call brings you into the work day, is unprofessional on your employers part.</p><p>Finally, of course, I would demand a night premium for all 24x7 calls serviced.</p><p>I due 24x7 support for companies for $120 and hour on the weekends, and $100 an hour on the weekdays.</p><p>If you make less that that per hour, I would say NO WAY.</p><p>-Hack</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , if it is 24x7 , I would immediately demand 2 extra weeks paid vacation per year , and a tier one health plan .
( No deductables for anything , including prescriptions .
) After just 2 years of 24x7 calls , your health will be a lot worse .
Lots of studies show people who do not get good nights sleep have a DOUBLE the cancer risk , psychological problems and get the flu way way more often than people who get a good nights sleep.Second I would demand a health spa at the place of work , cardio vascular machines , and a shower locker room facilities simply because rushing out of bed , and going to work and not looking professional if the on call brings you into the work day , is unprofessional on your employers part.Finally , of course , I would demand a night premium for all 24x7 calls serviced.I due 24x7 support for companies for $ 120 and hour on the weekends , and $ 100 an hour on the weekdays.If you make less that that per hour , I would say NO WAY.-Hack</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, if it is 24x7, I would immediately demand 2 extra weeks paid vacation per year, and a tier one health plan.
(No deductables for anything, including prescriptions.
)After just 2 years of 24x7 calls, your health will be a lot worse.
Lots of studies show people who do not get good nights sleep have a DOUBLE the cancer risk, psychological problems and get the flu way way more often than people who get a good nights sleep.Second I would demand a health spa at the place of work, cardio vascular machines, and a shower locker room facilities simply because rushing out of bed, and going to work and not looking professional if the on call brings you into the work day, is unprofessional on your employers part.Finally, of course, I would demand a night premium for all 24x7 calls serviced.I due 24x7 support for companies for $120 and hour on the weekends, and $100 an hour on the weekdays.If you make less that that per hour, I would say NO WAY.-Hack</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368382</id>
	<title>Be Ready To Move On</title>
	<author>CognitiveFusion</author>
	<datestamp>1260301140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have ran into similar problems in the past. I hit the ceiling of the "technical" promotion track, stayed there for a few years and finally hit the max salary band. If I wanted another promotion/pay increase I would have been forced into a project management track. I finally chose the option that wasn't being offered - I gave my two weeks notice and left for a new employer.</p><p>Communicate with your employer - tell them where your interests are. Talk to your boss, dept director, HR to see if there are any options to shift the promotion into a technical position. At the same time, if you are committed to keeping a tech job, keep your options open by seriously looking for new job opportunities. If you find that you are out of options with your employer, its probably time to move on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have ran into similar problems in the past .
I hit the ceiling of the " technical " promotion track , stayed there for a few years and finally hit the max salary band .
If I wanted another promotion/pay increase I would have been forced into a project management track .
I finally chose the option that was n't being offered - I gave my two weeks notice and left for a new employer.Communicate with your employer - tell them where your interests are .
Talk to your boss , dept director , HR to see if there are any options to shift the promotion into a technical position .
At the same time , if you are committed to keeping a tech job , keep your options open by seriously looking for new job opportunities .
If you find that you are out of options with your employer , its probably time to move on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have ran into similar problems in the past.
I hit the ceiling of the "technical" promotion track, stayed there for a few years and finally hit the max salary band.
If I wanted another promotion/pay increase I would have been forced into a project management track.
I finally chose the option that wasn't being offered - I gave my two weeks notice and left for a new employer.Communicate with your employer - tell them where your interests are.
Talk to your boss, dept director, HR to see if there are any options to shift the promotion into a technical position.
At the same time, if you are committed to keeping a tech job, keep your options open by seriously looking for new job opportunities.
If you find that you are out of options with your employer, its probably time to move on.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30371048</id>
	<title>Re:Negotiate</title>
	<author>lewiscr</author>
	<datestamp>1260270120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>OB T-Shirt  <a href="http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/unisex/frustrations/374d/" title="thinkgeek.com">http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/unisex/frustrations/374d/</a> [thinkgeek.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>OB T-Shirt http : //www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/unisex/frustrations/374d/ [ thinkgeek.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>OB T-Shirt  http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/unisex/frustrations/374d/ [thinkgeek.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30370454</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368528</id>
	<title>Nothing like a technical leader</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260301680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I had a similar experience and noticed that you can take very good decisions if you have a technical background. If you feel you can make a change for good from a higher position, take it as a challenge! Additionally, people in lower ranges like it when a technical manager surprises them with a low level solution.<br>From my point of view, whatever position you are at, if you are committed to your job, you are always on call and part of your job is having someone ready to catch bombs before they reach the manager. The best part is that you can always go back down one level.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I had a similar experience and noticed that you can take very good decisions if you have a technical background .
If you feel you can make a change for good from a higher position , take it as a challenge !
Additionally , people in lower ranges like it when a technical manager surprises them with a low level solution.From my point of view , whatever position you are at , if you are committed to your job , you are always on call and part of your job is having someone ready to catch bombs before they reach the manager .
The best part is that you can always go back down one level .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had a similar experience and noticed that you can take very good decisions if you have a technical background.
If you feel you can make a change for good from a higher position, take it as a challenge!
Additionally, people in lower ranges like it when a technical manager surprises them with a low level solution.From my point of view, whatever position you are at, if you are committed to your job, you are always on call and part of your job is having someone ready to catch bombs before they reach the manager.
The best part is that you can always go back down one level.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368396</id>
	<title>Intern to Technical Lead ..</title>
	<author>viralMeme</author>
	<datestamp>1260301200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>"<i>After moving up the ranks within my department from Intern to Technical Lead<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. and will now be required to work 5 eight-hour days rather than 4 ten-hour days and be on call during the other two days of the week<i> <br> <br>

If you still have to clock-on then you ain't a lead anything just another replaceable company drone. Time to move on. But don't tell them until you have the other job lined up. For your next job go for the <a href="http://www.dilbert.com/" title="dilbert.com">donut downsizing</a> [dilbert.com] executive position<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..</i></i></htmltext>
<tokenext>" After moving up the ranks within my department from Intern to Technical Lead .. and will now be required to work 5 eight-hour days rather than 4 ten-hour days and be on call during the other two days of the week If you still have to clock-on then you ai n't a lead anything just another replaceable company drone .
Time to move on .
But do n't tell them until you have the other job lined up .
For your next job go for the donut downsizing [ dilbert.com ] executive position . .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"After moving up the ranks within my department from Intern to Technical Lead .. and will now be required to work 5 eight-hour days rather than 4 ten-hour days and be on call during the other two days of the week  

If you still have to clock-on then you ain't a lead anything just another replaceable company drone.
Time to move on.
But don't tell them until you have the other job lined up.
For your next job go for the donut downsizing [dilbert.com] executive position ..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368494</id>
	<title>Honestly assess yourself</title>
	<author>DigitalCrackPipe</author>
	<datestamp>1260301560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Most techies don't want to move into management (myself included).  Some can resist the push, while others are swept into it.  I suggest that those who are truly technically excellent (beyond their peers, no matter how good those peers are) have a good argument to stay but must make the argument themselves.  We need some pillars of technical capability.  The rest are likely to become less interested/aware of newly evolving technology and eventually can be more capable as a manager using the experience learned.  That's a natural transition, but can be jarring if done too soon or too fast.
<br> <br>
Then there's the more common category, those whithout technical or leadership skills.  Those folks often make the transition earlier because they're not motivated by quality or productivity.  They languish in middle management.
<br> <br>
So I suggest that you assess what career path best uses your skills and preferences (as you can see them now).  Achieving that at your current employer may be difficult, but it's worth knowing if fighting to stay technical is really the right path for you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most techies do n't want to move into management ( myself included ) .
Some can resist the push , while others are swept into it .
I suggest that those who are truly technically excellent ( beyond their peers , no matter how good those peers are ) have a good argument to stay but must make the argument themselves .
We need some pillars of technical capability .
The rest are likely to become less interested/aware of newly evolving technology and eventually can be more capable as a manager using the experience learned .
That 's a natural transition , but can be jarring if done too soon or too fast .
Then there 's the more common category , those whithout technical or leadership skills .
Those folks often make the transition earlier because they 're not motivated by quality or productivity .
They languish in middle management .
So I suggest that you assess what career path best uses your skills and preferences ( as you can see them now ) .
Achieving that at your current employer may be difficult , but it 's worth knowing if fighting to stay technical is really the right path for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most techies don't want to move into management (myself included).
Some can resist the push, while others are swept into it.
I suggest that those who are truly technically excellent (beyond their peers, no matter how good those peers are) have a good argument to stay but must make the argument themselves.
We need some pillars of technical capability.
The rest are likely to become less interested/aware of newly evolving technology and eventually can be more capable as a manager using the experience learned.
That's a natural transition, but can be jarring if done too soon or too fast.
Then there's the more common category, those whithout technical or leadership skills.
Those folks often make the transition earlier because they're not motivated by quality or productivity.
They languish in middle management.
So I suggest that you assess what career path best uses your skills and preferences (as you can see them now).
Achieving that at your current employer may be difficult, but it's worth knowing if fighting to stay technical is really the right path for you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369058</id>
	<title>Don't be afraid to stretch your capabilities</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260304020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most techies got into technology because they prefer the (relatively) determinate interactions with computers over the dramatic shenanigans of people.  Remaining in a pure dev role is attractive precisely because it provides an arena with a minimum of interpersonal BS in which discrete goals can be achieved based on a known system of parameters.  Management is a whole other story, it is presumed, because it's all about politics and nothing ever gets achieved except the occasional back-stab.</p><p>Having transitioned from development to management myself, I found it to be just as (if not more) interesting than development, mainly because I was still solving problems (resourcing, behavioral, budget-related) but the parameters were more complex and, most importantly, the experience was applicable to real-life scenarios that extended beyond the technology realm.  So the question really comes down to: are you willing to make yourself uncomfortable for the purpose of growth?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most techies got into technology because they prefer the ( relatively ) determinate interactions with computers over the dramatic shenanigans of people .
Remaining in a pure dev role is attractive precisely because it provides an arena with a minimum of interpersonal BS in which discrete goals can be achieved based on a known system of parameters .
Management is a whole other story , it is presumed , because it 's all about politics and nothing ever gets achieved except the occasional back-stab.Having transitioned from development to management myself , I found it to be just as ( if not more ) interesting than development , mainly because I was still solving problems ( resourcing , behavioral , budget-related ) but the parameters were more complex and , most importantly , the experience was applicable to real-life scenarios that extended beyond the technology realm .
So the question really comes down to : are you willing to make yourself uncomfortable for the purpose of growth ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most techies got into technology because they prefer the (relatively) determinate interactions with computers over the dramatic shenanigans of people.
Remaining in a pure dev role is attractive precisely because it provides an arena with a minimum of interpersonal BS in which discrete goals can be achieved based on a known system of parameters.
Management is a whole other story, it is presumed, because it's all about politics and nothing ever gets achieved except the occasional back-stab.Having transitioned from development to management myself, I found it to be just as (if not more) interesting than development, mainly because I was still solving problems (resourcing, behavioral, budget-related) but the parameters were more complex and, most importantly, the experience was applicable to real-life scenarios that extended beyond the technology realm.
So the question really comes down to: are you willing to make yourself uncomfortable for the purpose of growth?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369502</id>
	<title>Transitioned there and back</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260305880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I must be one of the rare lucky ones. I'm a senior network architect at a relatively large software company that's into buying other companies from time to time.  Back before getting bought, I had transitioned into a management role for our small team mostly because someone had to fill it and I was the most experienced.  At the smaller company I was able to balance the technical role with the managerial role quite easily.  It was a small team with good people so the managerial overhead was perhaps 25\% of my time.</p><p>Once the big company bought us it became clear that their management job track philosophy was a bit different than the small company.  There wasn't any overt "you have to only focus on being a manager" message, but there was a lot more<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... stuff to do.  I guess it comes with a bigger hierarchy.  All of a sudden I was bogged down in meetings and paperwork that didn't make a whole lot of sense for a 3 to 4 person team run by a tech guy.  It wasn't that it was useless stuff (for the most part) but I was clearly into the tech side of things and I didn't have a 10 person team to manage that might benefit from all this overhead.</p><p>Luckily big company realizes this happens and was happy to move me back into the senior technical position.  No change in salary or benefits or anything.  Just a lateral transition really with the knowledge that I tried out management and didn't really like it.  Going by the other responses here though, I think I was lucky in this instance.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I must be one of the rare lucky ones .
I 'm a senior network architect at a relatively large software company that 's into buying other companies from time to time .
Back before getting bought , I had transitioned into a management role for our small team mostly because someone had to fill it and I was the most experienced .
At the smaller company I was able to balance the technical role with the managerial role quite easily .
It was a small team with good people so the managerial overhead was perhaps 25 \ % of my time.Once the big company bought us it became clear that their management job track philosophy was a bit different than the small company .
There was n't any overt " you have to only focus on being a manager " message , but there was a lot more ... stuff to do .
I guess it comes with a bigger hierarchy .
All of a sudden I was bogged down in meetings and paperwork that did n't make a whole lot of sense for a 3 to 4 person team run by a tech guy .
It was n't that it was useless stuff ( for the most part ) but I was clearly into the tech side of things and I did n't have a 10 person team to manage that might benefit from all this overhead.Luckily big company realizes this happens and was happy to move me back into the senior technical position .
No change in salary or benefits or anything .
Just a lateral transition really with the knowledge that I tried out management and did n't really like it .
Going by the other responses here though , I think I was lucky in this instance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I must be one of the rare lucky ones.
I'm a senior network architect at a relatively large software company that's into buying other companies from time to time.
Back before getting bought, I had transitioned into a management role for our small team mostly because someone had to fill it and I was the most experienced.
At the smaller company I was able to balance the technical role with the managerial role quite easily.
It was a small team with good people so the managerial overhead was perhaps 25\% of my time.Once the big company bought us it became clear that their management job track philosophy was a bit different than the small company.
There wasn't any overt "you have to only focus on being a manager" message, but there was a lot more ... stuff to do.
I guess it comes with a bigger hierarchy.
All of a sudden I was bogged down in meetings and paperwork that didn't make a whole lot of sense for a 3 to 4 person team run by a tech guy.
It wasn't that it was useless stuff (for the most part) but I was clearly into the tech side of things and I didn't have a 10 person team to manage that might benefit from all this overhead.Luckily big company realizes this happens and was happy to move me back into the senior technical position.
No change in salary or benefits or anything.
Just a lateral transition really with the knowledge that I tried out management and didn't really like it.
Going by the other responses here though, I think I was lucky in this instance.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369198</id>
	<title>Perspective</title>
	<author>AdmiralAl</author>
	<datestamp>1260304500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The answer sort of lies in what your goals are and what the position requires you to do.
Personal Anecdote:
I started off as a lowly PC tech in the IT industry back in the 90's. After working several years in the field, I moved on to another company doing basically the same job, but with opportunity to advance. After a few years, I was given a Tech Lead position. This was great, but the company wasn't doing so hot so I left to work at a tax company (rhymes with clock). Not soon after joining that company I was basically forced into a management position and I hated it. I didn't hate it because it was management, I hated it because the company forced me to treat my employees like dirt and my director was actually insulted by my tech knowledge and I was barred from using it. I decided to look for a new job and because of my tech and management experience I got another Tech Management position...this one I loved. The company totally embraced my knowledge and experience and allowed me to not just be a boss, but also a mentor and resource for my team. Without that previous management experience though I would never have been able to get the job. Yeah, it sucked for a while, but in the end it was totally worth it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The answer sort of lies in what your goals are and what the position requires you to do .
Personal Anecdote : I started off as a lowly PC tech in the IT industry back in the 90 's .
After working several years in the field , I moved on to another company doing basically the same job , but with opportunity to advance .
After a few years , I was given a Tech Lead position .
This was great , but the company was n't doing so hot so I left to work at a tax company ( rhymes with clock ) .
Not soon after joining that company I was basically forced into a management position and I hated it .
I did n't hate it because it was management , I hated it because the company forced me to treat my employees like dirt and my director was actually insulted by my tech knowledge and I was barred from using it .
I decided to look for a new job and because of my tech and management experience I got another Tech Management position...this one I loved .
The company totally embraced my knowledge and experience and allowed me to not just be a boss , but also a mentor and resource for my team .
Without that previous management experience though I would never have been able to get the job .
Yeah , it sucked for a while , but in the end it was totally worth it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The answer sort of lies in what your goals are and what the position requires you to do.
Personal Anecdote:
I started off as a lowly PC tech in the IT industry back in the 90's.
After working several years in the field, I moved on to another company doing basically the same job, but with opportunity to advance.
After a few years, I was given a Tech Lead position.
This was great, but the company wasn't doing so hot so I left to work at a tax company (rhymes with clock).
Not soon after joining that company I was basically forced into a management position and I hated it.
I didn't hate it because it was management, I hated it because the company forced me to treat my employees like dirt and my director was actually insulted by my tech knowledge and I was barred from using it.
I decided to look for a new job and because of my tech and management experience I got another Tech Management position...this one I loved.
The company totally embraced my knowledge and experience and allowed me to not just be a boss, but also a mentor and resource for my team.
Without that previous management experience though I would never have been able to get the job.
Yeah, it sucked for a while, but in the end it was totally worth it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369138</id>
	<title>Re:Take it as long as they pay you an extra amount</title>
	<author>daveatneowindotnet</author>
	<datestamp>1260304260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Agreed, you have to take. Even if they weren't planning on paying you for on call duty. The key word above is "new" as in "a new manager". Sounds like you are either going to become useful in the way this new manager wants you to be, or you will quickly become an example of the fact that this manager is willing to let go people who aren't following his plan.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed , you have to take .
Even if they were n't planning on paying you for on call duty .
The key word above is " new " as in " a new manager " .
Sounds like you are either going to become useful in the way this new manager wants you to be , or you will quickly become an example of the fact that this manager is willing to let go people who are n't following his plan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed, you have to take.
Even if they weren't planning on paying you for on call duty.
The key word above is "new" as in "a new manager".
Sounds like you are either going to become useful in the way this new manager wants you to be, or you will quickly become an example of the fact that this manager is willing to let go people who aren't following his plan.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368070</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369278</id>
	<title>It's interesting that five years is long enough...</title>
	<author>Richard Steiner</author>
	<datestamp>1260304980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In larger or more established companies, managers take a lot longer to develop.  Maybe this quick transaction from intern to manager explains why so many smaller companies tend to get run into the ground...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In larger or more established companies , managers take a lot longer to develop .
Maybe this quick transaction from intern to manager explains why so many smaller companies tend to get run into the ground.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In larger or more established companies, managers take a lot longer to develop.
Maybe this quick transaction from intern to manager explains why so many smaller companies tend to get run into the ground...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369404</id>
	<title>Bad idea to turn it down</title>
	<author>plopez</author>
	<datestamp>1260305460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Some of the other posters gave good reasons, e.g. less risk of offshoring. In addition:</p><p>1) You might like. If you don't try something new how would you ever know?</p><p>2) It looks good on the resume. Being thought of as a "one trick pony" or a "drone" makes it harder to get a job in a tough economy.</p><p>3) Logistics, planning and organizing can be technical challenges in and of themselves. Explore the topic of "operations research" and you'll see what I mean.</p><p>Two things to watch out for:</p><p>1) You need control of you department and</p><p>2) make sure it is mostly management and not so much administrative.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some of the other posters gave good reasons , e.g .
less risk of offshoring .
In addition : 1 ) You might like .
If you do n't try something new how would you ever know ? 2 ) It looks good on the resume .
Being thought of as a " one trick pony " or a " drone " makes it harder to get a job in a tough economy.3 ) Logistics , planning and organizing can be technical challenges in and of themselves .
Explore the topic of " operations research " and you 'll see what I mean.Two things to watch out for : 1 ) You need control of you department and2 ) make sure it is mostly management and not so much administrative .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some of the other posters gave good reasons, e.g.
less risk of offshoring.
In addition:1) You might like.
If you don't try something new how would you ever know?2) It looks good on the resume.
Being thought of as a "one trick pony" or a "drone" makes it harder to get a job in a tough economy.3) Logistics, planning and organizing can be technical challenges in and of themselves.
Explore the topic of "operations research" and you'll see what I mean.Two things to watch out for:1) You need control of you department and2) make sure it is mostly management and not so much administrative.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30370454</id>
	<title>Re:Negotiate</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260267300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If only you could manage people with a bash script...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If only you could manage people with a bash script.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If only you could manage people with a bash script...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369232</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368700</id>
	<title>The big picture</title>
	<author>ISurfTooMuch</author>
	<datestamp>1260302280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Look, I don't know your situation, but you need to consider the future.  Are you topped out in terms of salary in your current position?  Also, what is your salary if you take the promotion, and where does that job's salary top out?  And how old are you?</p><p>You may be thinking that your current salary is fine, but, as you get older and take on more responsibilities, that paycheck starts to look really inadequate.  And I know you really love IT, but now you will have a chance to learn a whole new set of skills, skills that will look good on a resume should you end up hating the new job.  You may end up finding a new employer that needs someone with both IT and management skills.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Look , I do n't know your situation , but you need to consider the future .
Are you topped out in terms of salary in your current position ?
Also , what is your salary if you take the promotion , and where does that job 's salary top out ?
And how old are you ? You may be thinking that your current salary is fine , but , as you get older and take on more responsibilities , that paycheck starts to look really inadequate .
And I know you really love IT , but now you will have a chance to learn a whole new set of skills , skills that will look good on a resume should you end up hating the new job .
You may end up finding a new employer that needs someone with both IT and management skills .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look, I don't know your situation, but you need to consider the future.
Are you topped out in terms of salary in your current position?
Also, what is your salary if you take the promotion, and where does that job's salary top out?
And how old are you?You may be thinking that your current salary is fine, but, as you get older and take on more responsibilities, that paycheck starts to look really inadequate.
And I know you really love IT, but now you will have a chance to learn a whole new set of skills, skills that will look good on a resume should you end up hating the new job.
You may end up finding a new employer that needs someone with both IT and management skills.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368406</id>
	<title>Sign of the economic times</title>
	<author>thickdiick</author>
	<datestamp>1260301260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Many "promotions" and "changes" issues by companies these days are designed to cut costs. You can view it as an euphemism for a demotion. Take it with a smile, because it's a nice way of saying that you're getting demoted instead of fired.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Many " promotions " and " changes " issues by companies these days are designed to cut costs .
You can view it as an euphemism for a demotion .
Take it with a smile , because it 's a nice way of saying that you 're getting demoted instead of fired .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many "promotions" and "changes" issues by companies these days are designed to cut costs.
You can view it as an euphemism for a demotion.
Take it with a smile, because it's a nice way of saying that you're getting demoted instead of fired.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369850</id>
	<title>As Don Corleone would say</title>
	<author>jd80026</author>
	<datestamp>1260264360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think this scene from The Godfather best describes this post:
<br>
<br>
Johnny Fontane: A month ago he bought the rights to this book, a best seller. The main character is a guy just like me. I wouldn't even have to act, just be myself. Oh, Godfather, I don't know what to do, I don't know what to do...
[All of a sudden, Don Corleone rises from his chair and gives Fontane a savage shake]
<br>
Don Corleone: YOU CAN ACT LIKE A MAN!
[gives a quick slap to Fontane]
<br> <br>

If you don't want the promotion, don't take it.  If you think it may cost you your job (highly unlikely) factor that into your decision.  Just don't be a little wuss about it and post a thinly veiled, rant about how mean your boss is under the guise of asking for advice.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think this scene from The Godfather best describes this post : Johnny Fontane : A month ago he bought the rights to this book , a best seller .
The main character is a guy just like me .
I would n't even have to act , just be myself .
Oh , Godfather , I do n't know what to do , I do n't know what to do.. . [ All of a sudden , Don Corleone rises from his chair and gives Fontane a savage shake ] Don Corleone : YOU CAN ACT LIKE A MAN !
[ gives a quick slap to Fontane ] If you do n't want the promotion , do n't take it .
If you think it may cost you your job ( highly unlikely ) factor that into your decision .
Just do n't be a little wuss about it and post a thinly veiled , rant about how mean your boss is under the guise of asking for advice .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think this scene from The Godfather best describes this post:


Johnny Fontane: A month ago he bought the rights to this book, a best seller.
The main character is a guy just like me.
I wouldn't even have to act, just be myself.
Oh, Godfather, I don't know what to do, I don't know what to do...
[All of a sudden, Don Corleone rises from his chair and gives Fontane a savage shake]

Don Corleone: YOU CAN ACT LIKE A MAN!
[gives a quick slap to Fontane]
 

If you don't want the promotion, don't take it.
If you think it may cost you your job (highly unlikely) factor that into your decision.
Just don't be a little wuss about it and post a thinly veiled, rant about how mean your boss is under the guise of asking for advice.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368546</id>
	<title>I went "up" to management and back "down" to tech</title>
	<author>lazyforker</author>
	<datestamp>1260301740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I was given a non-tech role, and I took it believing that I'd end up better paid etc.  Nope.  Not only did I hate the job but I wasn't good at it so knew there'd be no pay increases or bonuses worth mentioning. Two months into the role I told my manager that I was not being effectively utilized, that I was a bad fit for the job and that the best way to use me was in tech, etc. I was "demoted" to a tech role and couldn't be happier. The techs who took management roles are being crushed by red tape and bureaucracy and are not happy.
<p>If you're fundamentally unsuited to the job and are not interested in it then you will fail.  In that situation nobody wins!
</p><p>As for the change in hours - presumably you'll be getting "on call" pay, overtime etc?  Or are they just trying to piss you off and make you leave?
</p><p>Make sure your resume is up to date and start looking elsewhere anyway.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was given a non-tech role , and I took it believing that I 'd end up better paid etc .
Nope. Not only did I hate the job but I was n't good at it so knew there 'd be no pay increases or bonuses worth mentioning .
Two months into the role I told my manager that I was not being effectively utilized , that I was a bad fit for the job and that the best way to use me was in tech , etc .
I was " demoted " to a tech role and could n't be happier .
The techs who took management roles are being crushed by red tape and bureaucracy and are not happy .
If you 're fundamentally unsuited to the job and are not interested in it then you will fail .
In that situation nobody wins !
As for the change in hours - presumably you 'll be getting " on call " pay , overtime etc ?
Or are they just trying to piss you off and make you leave ?
Make sure your resume is up to date and start looking elsewhere anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was given a non-tech role, and I took it believing that I'd end up better paid etc.
Nope.  Not only did I hate the job but I wasn't good at it so knew there'd be no pay increases or bonuses worth mentioning.
Two months into the role I told my manager that I was not being effectively utilized, that I was a bad fit for the job and that the best way to use me was in tech, etc.
I was "demoted" to a tech role and couldn't be happier.
The techs who took management roles are being crushed by red tape and bureaucracy and are not happy.
If you're fundamentally unsuited to the job and are not interested in it then you will fail.
In that situation nobody wins!
As for the change in hours - presumably you'll be getting "on call" pay, overtime etc?
Or are they just trying to piss you off and make you leave?
Make sure your resume is up to date and start looking elsewhere anyway.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30371774</id>
	<title>Re:Wow, where to start</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260274020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I turned down promotions, turned in paperwork late, stood up mandatory meetings, re-wrote my performance eval when I didn't like it and just generally made the people dumb enough to accept the supervisor positions miserable.  Sometimes because I genuinely didn't like them, other times out of a perverse sense of tradition and once because I was being a royal dick. </p></div><p>Sounds like you were an asshole. Wait, are you my boss?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I turned down promotions , turned in paperwork late , stood up mandatory meetings , re-wrote my performance eval when I did n't like it and just generally made the people dumb enough to accept the supervisor positions miserable .
Sometimes because I genuinely did n't like them , other times out of a perverse sense of tradition and once because I was being a royal dick .
Sounds like you were an asshole .
Wait , are you my boss ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I turned down promotions, turned in paperwork late, stood up mandatory meetings, re-wrote my performance eval when I didn't like it and just generally made the people dumb enough to accept the supervisor positions miserable.
Sometimes because I genuinely didn't like them, other times out of a perverse sense of tradition and once because I was being a royal dick.
Sounds like you were an asshole.
Wait, are you my boss?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368578</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368772</id>
	<title>Why?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260302640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>More than likely,  this is the beginning of the end for you there.  I was in a similar situation a few years ago and I declined ("I'm good at managing technology.  Not people!").  While I was able to keep the job for a few more years,  I wasn't in the loop anymore and raises and bonuses ceased.  PHBs spend their emotional energy trying to climb the ladder and have an innate distrust of folks who don't think like they do.  I mean,  why would someone want to stay on the assembly line making widgets??</p><p>First,  you need to know why they picked you.  Is your current position going away?  Do they think they are doing you a favor?  Does putting your salary in the mgmt column ease some budget pressure?  Are they trying to make you quit to avoid paying severance and unemployment (this is my first guess)? Knowing the 'why' will clue you into what your bosses reaction will be when you tell him you don't want the job.   It should be pretty simple to decide what to do once you know the 'real' reason for the 'offer'.   Just make sure you don't show your hand while digging for the truth of the matter.</p><p>If you determine that this situation IS the first nail in the coffin,  then your sole objective needs to be "Extend the death process until you find another job.".   In my situation,  declining the offer kept me in the job a LOT longer.  A LOT!!  I'da made maybe 4 PHB circle jerks before twisting off and being escorted out.  You may be able to control the urge to strangle kittens when confronted with mindless office politics.  I am not.</p><p>So,  find out if your answer has the potential to end the relationship completely.  If yes,  give them the answer they want to hear and spend every waking moment after that trying to find a new job (Note:  smaller companies are better fits for people who want to advance but stay on the tech side).   Also,  pray to the god of irrationality that the jobs package being touted actually produces jobs.</p><p>Good luck!</p><p>p.s.  If you decide to take the management position,  can you provide and email where I can send a resume??<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>More than likely , this is the beginning of the end for you there .
I was in a similar situation a few years ago and I declined ( " I 'm good at managing technology .
Not people ! " ) .
While I was able to keep the job for a few more years , I was n't in the loop anymore and raises and bonuses ceased .
PHBs spend their emotional energy trying to climb the ladder and have an innate distrust of folks who do n't think like they do .
I mean , why would someone want to stay on the assembly line making widgets ?
? First , you need to know why they picked you .
Is your current position going away ?
Do they think they are doing you a favor ?
Does putting your salary in the mgmt column ease some budget pressure ?
Are they trying to make you quit to avoid paying severance and unemployment ( this is my first guess ) ?
Knowing the 'why ' will clue you into what your bosses reaction will be when you tell him you do n't want the job .
It should be pretty simple to decide what to do once you know the 'real ' reason for the 'offer' .
Just make sure you do n't show your hand while digging for the truth of the matter.If you determine that this situation IS the first nail in the coffin , then your sole objective needs to be " Extend the death process until you find another job. " .
In my situation , declining the offer kept me in the job a LOT longer .
A LOT ! !
I'da made maybe 4 PHB circle jerks before twisting off and being escorted out .
You may be able to control the urge to strangle kittens when confronted with mindless office politics .
I am not.So , find out if your answer has the potential to end the relationship completely .
If yes , give them the answer they want to hear and spend every waking moment after that trying to find a new job ( Note : smaller companies are better fits for people who want to advance but stay on the tech side ) .
Also , pray to the god of irrationality that the jobs package being touted actually produces jobs.Good luck ! p.s .
If you decide to take the management position , can you provide and email where I can send a resume ? ?
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>More than likely,  this is the beginning of the end for you there.
I was in a similar situation a few years ago and I declined ("I'm good at managing technology.
Not people!").
While I was able to keep the job for a few more years,  I wasn't in the loop anymore and raises and bonuses ceased.
PHBs spend their emotional energy trying to climb the ladder and have an innate distrust of folks who don't think like they do.
I mean,  why would someone want to stay on the assembly line making widgets?
?First,  you need to know why they picked you.
Is your current position going away?
Do they think they are doing you a favor?
Does putting your salary in the mgmt column ease some budget pressure?
Are they trying to make you quit to avoid paying severance and unemployment (this is my first guess)?
Knowing the 'why' will clue you into what your bosses reaction will be when you tell him you don't want the job.
It should be pretty simple to decide what to do once you know the 'real' reason for the 'offer'.
Just make sure you don't show your hand while digging for the truth of the matter.If you determine that this situation IS the first nail in the coffin,  then your sole objective needs to be "Extend the death process until you find another job.".
In my situation,  declining the offer kept me in the job a LOT longer.
A LOT!!
I'da made maybe 4 PHB circle jerks before twisting off and being escorted out.
You may be able to control the urge to strangle kittens when confronted with mindless office politics.
I am not.So,  find out if your answer has the potential to end the relationship completely.
If yes,  give them the answer they want to hear and spend every waking moment after that trying to find a new job (Note:  smaller companies are better fits for people who want to advance but stay on the tech side).
Also,  pray to the god of irrationality that the jobs package being touted actually produces jobs.Good luck!p.s.
If you decide to take the management position,  can you provide and email where I can send a resume??
;)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368680</id>
	<title>I say no</title>
	<author>kwerle</author>
	<datestamp>1260302220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I make it clear to my management that I have no interest in going into management.  Some of them are OK with it.  Some of them are frustrated with it.</p><p>It is the good ones that are OK with it.  They know that I know what I want.</p><p>There is some reason you are being offered this different job.  Are you good at what you do?  Does your management know you are?  If that's the case, and you don't want to go, you say no.  If you're good, they won't fire you</p><p>If you stink at what you do, maybe they are promoting you to take a fall at something you'll fail at miserably.  It's possible.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I make it clear to my management that I have no interest in going into management .
Some of them are OK with it .
Some of them are frustrated with it.It is the good ones that are OK with it .
They know that I know what I want.There is some reason you are being offered this different job .
Are you good at what you do ?
Does your management know you are ?
If that 's the case , and you do n't want to go , you say no .
If you 're good , they wo n't fire youIf you stink at what you do , maybe they are promoting you to take a fall at something you 'll fail at miserably .
It 's possible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I make it clear to my management that I have no interest in going into management.
Some of them are OK with it.
Some of them are frustrated with it.It is the good ones that are OK with it.
They know that I know what I want.There is some reason you are being offered this different job.
Are you good at what you do?
Does your management know you are?
If that's the case, and you don't want to go, you say no.
If you're good, they won't fire youIf you stink at what you do, maybe they are promoting you to take a fall at something you'll fail at miserably.
It's possible.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368368</id>
	<title>Didn't Work For Me</title>
	<author>BlindSpot</author>
	<datestamp>1260301140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I wasn't pushed out of IT but about a year after starting my first job after grad I was pushed out of software development into a support role.  At the time I went along, more out of fear of my job than anything else, but also because I didn't know any better.  Ironically, I got so depressed in the support role that I eventually started looking for new work.  And I loved the company I worked for too - good industry, respected company - so even <i>thinking</i> of leaving them was gut-wrenching.</p><p>They finally moved me back to my original development role at the last minute (I had another offer on the table) but it never did sit well with the management, who was unfortunately rather clueless about IT to begin with.  A year later they outsourced their software development to India and I was told they "could not find a new role for me", which was very suspicious because there were numerous BA positions listed as vacant at the time I departed.  However I did at least get severance.</p><p>So, to answer the question, no.  If you resist, be prepared to start looking elsewhere.  Also, be careful you aren't turning in your resignation by saying no:  in many places if you turn down a promotion or lateral move you are deemed to have quit voluntarily and are thus not eligible for severance, options, or anything else.  So one option might be to try it - it's possible you might like it, and if not at least it will buy you time to find something new.</p><p>P.S. That's the bad news of my story... the good news is I eventually realised that towing corporate lines wasn't for me, went into contracting, and now I make a whole lot more money exclusively doing something I really enjoy.  I realise not everyone is that fortunate, but sometimes good things do come out of these situations.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was n't pushed out of IT but about a year after starting my first job after grad I was pushed out of software development into a support role .
At the time I went along , more out of fear of my job than anything else , but also because I did n't know any better .
Ironically , I got so depressed in the support role that I eventually started looking for new work .
And I loved the company I worked for too - good industry , respected company - so even thinking of leaving them was gut-wrenching.They finally moved me back to my original development role at the last minute ( I had another offer on the table ) but it never did sit well with the management , who was unfortunately rather clueless about IT to begin with .
A year later they outsourced their software development to India and I was told they " could not find a new role for me " , which was very suspicious because there were numerous BA positions listed as vacant at the time I departed .
However I did at least get severance.So , to answer the question , no .
If you resist , be prepared to start looking elsewhere .
Also , be careful you are n't turning in your resignation by saying no : in many places if you turn down a promotion or lateral move you are deemed to have quit voluntarily and are thus not eligible for severance , options , or anything else .
So one option might be to try it - it 's possible you might like it , and if not at least it will buy you time to find something new.P.S .
That 's the bad news of my story... the good news is I eventually realised that towing corporate lines was n't for me , went into contracting , and now I make a whole lot more money exclusively doing something I really enjoy .
I realise not everyone is that fortunate , but sometimes good things do come out of these situations .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wasn't pushed out of IT but about a year after starting my first job after grad I was pushed out of software development into a support role.
At the time I went along, more out of fear of my job than anything else, but also because I didn't know any better.
Ironically, I got so depressed in the support role that I eventually started looking for new work.
And I loved the company I worked for too - good industry, respected company - so even thinking of leaving them was gut-wrenching.They finally moved me back to my original development role at the last minute (I had another offer on the table) but it never did sit well with the management, who was unfortunately rather clueless about IT to begin with.
A year later they outsourced their software development to India and I was told they "could not find a new role for me", which was very suspicious because there were numerous BA positions listed as vacant at the time I departed.
However I did at least get severance.So, to answer the question, no.
If you resist, be prepared to start looking elsewhere.
Also, be careful you aren't turning in your resignation by saying no:  in many places if you turn down a promotion or lateral move you are deemed to have quit voluntarily and are thus not eligible for severance, options, or anything else.
So one option might be to try it - it's possible you might like it, and if not at least it will buy you time to find something new.P.S.
That's the bad news of my story... the good news is I eventually realised that towing corporate lines wasn't for me, went into contracting, and now I make a whole lot more money exclusively doing something I really enjoy.
I realise not everyone is that fortunate, but sometimes good things do come out of these situations.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30370740</id>
	<title>Compromise?</title>
	<author>oneiros27</author>
	<datestamp>1260268860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't know what sort of responsibilities they give the 'Tech Lead' in your company, but you might offer to compromise, and do some sort of mentoring program or run other training for the others in the group<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... so it's not quite management, but not solely tech.</p><p>The other option is being a supervisor, without being a manager.  So, you're then responsible for watching over the people, doing evaluations, maybe assigning people to tasks as needed<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... but all of the budget issues and most of the meetings with executives are handled by someone else.  You might get input into hiring and firing, but the ultimate decision would go to the manager.</p><p>Of course, then your manager gets replaced, and suddenly you're working for a complete tool who doesn't understand the relationships in the office, and you might run into some personality conflicts which prompt you to resign, or they try to force you to resign (not understanding that 'constructive discharge' violates the right-to-work provisions)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know what sort of responsibilities they give the 'Tech Lead ' in your company , but you might offer to compromise , and do some sort of mentoring program or run other training for the others in the group ... so it 's not quite management , but not solely tech.The other option is being a supervisor , without being a manager .
So , you 're then responsible for watching over the people , doing evaluations , maybe assigning people to tasks as needed ... but all of the budget issues and most of the meetings with executives are handled by someone else .
You might get input into hiring and firing , but the ultimate decision would go to the manager.Of course , then your manager gets replaced , and suddenly you 're working for a complete tool who does n't understand the relationships in the office , and you might run into some personality conflicts which prompt you to resign , or they try to force you to resign ( not understanding that 'constructive discharge ' violates the right-to-work provisions )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know what sort of responsibilities they give the 'Tech Lead' in your company, but you might offer to compromise, and do some sort of mentoring program or run other training for the others in the group ... so it's not quite management, but not solely tech.The other option is being a supervisor, without being a manager.
So, you're then responsible for watching over the people, doing evaluations, maybe assigning people to tasks as needed ... but all of the budget issues and most of the meetings with executives are handled by someone else.
You might get input into hiring and firing, but the ultimate decision would go to the manager.Of course, then your manager gets replaced, and suddenly you're working for a complete tool who doesn't understand the relationships in the office, and you might run into some personality conflicts which prompt you to resign, or they try to force you to resign (not understanding that 'constructive discharge' violates the right-to-work provisions)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369206</id>
	<title>Obviously your manager sucks...</title>
	<author>Tdawgless</author>
	<datestamp>1260304500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>  I mean... you're probably not going to do a good job since you're not going to like, or maybe even understand, the role.

  If you're going from Technical to Managerial, it's not a promotion, it's a career change. Unfortunately, few people on either side of the fence realize this, and your boss was probably one of those people.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I mean... you 're probably not going to do a good job since you 're not going to like , or maybe even understand , the role .
If you 're going from Technical to Managerial , it 's not a promotion , it 's a career change .
Unfortunately , few people on either side of the fence realize this , and your boss was probably one of those people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>  I mean... you're probably not going to do a good job since you're not going to like, or maybe even understand, the role.
If you're going from Technical to Managerial, it's not a promotion, it's a career change.
Unfortunately, few people on either side of the fence realize this, and your boss was probably one of those people.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369356</id>
	<title>I say no</title>
	<author>rawbert</author>
	<datestamp>1260305280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've turned down a few management positions because in the few times I have said "yes", I've only ended up to realize I've doubled my responsiblities without doubling my compensation.

So far, I'm 13 years into the IT business and I'm happy to be a non-manager every single day. Not sure what I'd do if I couldn't work hands-on with technology.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've turned down a few management positions because in the few times I have said " yes " , I 've only ended up to realize I 've doubled my responsiblities without doubling my compensation .
So far , I 'm 13 years into the IT business and I 'm happy to be a non-manager every single day .
Not sure what I 'd do if I could n't work hands-on with technology .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've turned down a few management positions because in the few times I have said "yes", I've only ended up to realize I've doubled my responsiblities without doubling my compensation.
So far, I'm 13 years into the IT business and I'm happy to be a non-manager every single day.
Not sure what I'd do if I couldn't work hands-on with technology.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30374402</id>
	<title>My 2 cents = dollars, dollars, dollars.</title>
	<author>Jane Q. Public</author>
	<datestamp>1260297600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>They are asking you to do two separate things, each of which is worth money independent of the other.
<br> <br>
First, management is a lot of responsibility. I don't remember who said it, but he was a rich guy, and he said "I would rather own 10\% of something than manage 100\% of <b>anything</b>". So if I were not getting a <b>major</b> raise for moving to management, I would turn it down. Remember to look at both sides of the equation: there may be more pay and benefits, but there are downsides too: you will be responsible for making sure other people make money for the company. If they don't, you could get blamed. That is no small thing. So make sure the compensation is sufficient to justify taking on the responsibility and headaches.
<br> <br>
Second, you are being asked to be on call <b>all the time</b>. That is a <b>major</b> sacrifice (sorry for the repetition of "major" but it's true). It doesn't mean just maybe having to work more, it also means arbitrary disruption of your family life, or whatever else you may be up to when you are "off".
<br> <br>
A lot of companies pull this kind of thing when they switch someone from hourly to salary. When I signed up to work for an engineering company, someone who had been there a while said "Watch out. If you do well, they will offer to make you a salaried employee for a substantial raise. But then they will work your ass off, resulting in <b>lower</b> pay per hour." Just watch out for that kind of thing. If you know anyone else in a similar position there, ask them what it's like. AND ask for money for being on call, in addition to whatever you get paid to manage.
<br> <br>
Sure enough, after being there a while, I was offered a "promotion". They offered to give me a substantial raise. I told them, "I will take the promotion, and the raise, but I want it in equivalent hourly wages. I will work hard for you guys, but I want to be paid for every hour I am here."</htmltext>
<tokenext>They are asking you to do two separate things , each of which is worth money independent of the other .
First , management is a lot of responsibility .
I do n't remember who said it , but he was a rich guy , and he said " I would rather own 10 \ % of something than manage 100 \ % of anything " .
So if I were not getting a major raise for moving to management , I would turn it down .
Remember to look at both sides of the equation : there may be more pay and benefits , but there are downsides too : you will be responsible for making sure other people make money for the company .
If they do n't , you could get blamed .
That is no small thing .
So make sure the compensation is sufficient to justify taking on the responsibility and headaches .
Second , you are being asked to be on call all the time .
That is a major sacrifice ( sorry for the repetition of " major " but it 's true ) .
It does n't mean just maybe having to work more , it also means arbitrary disruption of your family life , or whatever else you may be up to when you are " off " .
A lot of companies pull this kind of thing when they switch someone from hourly to salary .
When I signed up to work for an engineering company , someone who had been there a while said " Watch out .
If you do well , they will offer to make you a salaried employee for a substantial raise .
But then they will work your ass off , resulting in lower pay per hour .
" Just watch out for that kind of thing .
If you know anyone else in a similar position there , ask them what it 's like .
AND ask for money for being on call , in addition to whatever you get paid to manage .
Sure enough , after being there a while , I was offered a " promotion " .
They offered to give me a substantial raise .
I told them , " I will take the promotion , and the raise , but I want it in equivalent hourly wages .
I will work hard for you guys , but I want to be paid for every hour I am here .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They are asking you to do two separate things, each of which is worth money independent of the other.
First, management is a lot of responsibility.
I don't remember who said it, but he was a rich guy, and he said "I would rather own 10\% of something than manage 100\% of anything".
So if I were not getting a major raise for moving to management, I would turn it down.
Remember to look at both sides of the equation: there may be more pay and benefits, but there are downsides too: you will be responsible for making sure other people make money for the company.
If they don't, you could get blamed.
That is no small thing.
So make sure the compensation is sufficient to justify taking on the responsibility and headaches.
Second, you are being asked to be on call all the time.
That is a major sacrifice (sorry for the repetition of "major" but it's true).
It doesn't mean just maybe having to work more, it also means arbitrary disruption of your family life, or whatever else you may be up to when you are "off".
A lot of companies pull this kind of thing when they switch someone from hourly to salary.
When I signed up to work for an engineering company, someone who had been there a while said "Watch out.
If you do well, they will offer to make you a salaried employee for a substantial raise.
But then they will work your ass off, resulting in lower pay per hour.
" Just watch out for that kind of thing.
If you know anyone else in a similar position there, ask them what it's like.
AND ask for money for being on call, in addition to whatever you get paid to manage.
Sure enough, after being there a while, I was offered a "promotion".
They offered to give me a substantial raise.
I told them, "I will take the promotion, and the raise, but I want it in equivalent hourly wages.
I will work hard for you guys, but I want to be paid for every hour I am here.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368906</id>
	<title>Re:A lot of bad suggestions...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260303240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Are you assuming an at-will state is a bad thing? Sir, at least we don't get taxed by union bosses.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Are you assuming an at-will state is a bad thing ?
Sir , at least we do n't get taxed by union bosses .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are you assuming an at-will state is a bad thing?
Sir, at least we don't get taxed by union bosses.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368420</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368484</id>
	<title>Tell them no.  Simply and straight forward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260301500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was promoted to management against my will, and eventually had to arrange my own "demotion", which was not an easy thing to do.</p><p>The management position sucked.  I hated trying to herd programmers.  It was also right at the beginning of the tech bubble bursting, so I had to lay some people off.  NOT fun.</p><p>I eventually got myself moved from Management to a Technical Advisor position that was at the same pay grade.  That worked great until my next boss decided I needed to do the management stuff for all of the people on my teams, even though I wasn't their manager.  That's when I applied for another job in the same company at a lower level.  People thought I was insane, but I get to see my family, my weekends are mine for the most part and my current manager LOVES having me.</p><p>Do NOT get let them promote you above:<br>1.  Level of competence (sucks)<br>2.  Level of COMFORT!  (more important.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was promoted to management against my will , and eventually had to arrange my own " demotion " , which was not an easy thing to do.The management position sucked .
I hated trying to herd programmers .
It was also right at the beginning of the tech bubble bursting , so I had to lay some people off .
NOT fun.I eventually got myself moved from Management to a Technical Advisor position that was at the same pay grade .
That worked great until my next boss decided I needed to do the management stuff for all of the people on my teams , even though I was n't their manager .
That 's when I applied for another job in the same company at a lower level .
People thought I was insane , but I get to see my family , my weekends are mine for the most part and my current manager LOVES having me.Do NOT get let them promote you above : 1 .
Level of competence ( sucks ) 2 .
Level of COMFORT !
( more important .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was promoted to management against my will, and eventually had to arrange my own "demotion", which was not an easy thing to do.The management position sucked.
I hated trying to herd programmers.
It was also right at the beginning of the tech bubble bursting, so I had to lay some people off.
NOT fun.I eventually got myself moved from Management to a Technical Advisor position that was at the same pay grade.
That worked great until my next boss decided I needed to do the management stuff for all of the people on my teams, even though I wasn't their manager.
That's when I applied for another job in the same company at a lower level.
People thought I was insane, but I get to see my family, my weekends are mine for the most part and my current manager LOVES having me.Do NOT get let them promote you above:1.
Level of competence (sucks)2.
Level of COMFORT!
(more important.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30372476</id>
	<title>I don't think they can fire you...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260278160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If I was you, I'd be getting this whole situation documented in an email trail or something and then back it up to a USB stick and keep it. I don't think they are allowed to fire you for turning down a promotion. If they do fire you, go to your local Labor Board and file a complaint. Companies look REALLY REALLY bad when they have a record of firing people for something that they aren't allowed to fire them for, then hit the papers, local news ETC. Also, don't be afraid to tell them you're doing it. Sometimes companies can have a big change of heart once they realize their good reputation as an employer is on the line. I've cornered a few employers in the past when they tried to pull illegal bullshit. It works out well. And if they still fire you, then who cares, they aren't the kind of people to be working for anyways. At interviews make sure that when they ask you why you left, you tell them the honest to God truth. "They fired me for turning down a promotion", any employer worth a damn is going to find that totally outrageous.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If I was you , I 'd be getting this whole situation documented in an email trail or something and then back it up to a USB stick and keep it .
I do n't think they are allowed to fire you for turning down a promotion .
If they do fire you , go to your local Labor Board and file a complaint .
Companies look REALLY REALLY bad when they have a record of firing people for something that they are n't allowed to fire them for , then hit the papers , local news ETC .
Also , do n't be afraid to tell them you 're doing it .
Sometimes companies can have a big change of heart once they realize their good reputation as an employer is on the line .
I 've cornered a few employers in the past when they tried to pull illegal bullshit .
It works out well .
And if they still fire you , then who cares , they are n't the kind of people to be working for anyways .
At interviews make sure that when they ask you why you left , you tell them the honest to God truth .
" They fired me for turning down a promotion " , any employer worth a damn is going to find that totally outrageous .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I was you, I'd be getting this whole situation documented in an email trail or something and then back it up to a USB stick and keep it.
I don't think they are allowed to fire you for turning down a promotion.
If they do fire you, go to your local Labor Board and file a complaint.
Companies look REALLY REALLY bad when they have a record of firing people for something that they aren't allowed to fire them for, then hit the papers, local news ETC.
Also, don't be afraid to tell them you're doing it.
Sometimes companies can have a big change of heart once they realize their good reputation as an employer is on the line.
I've cornered a few employers in the past when they tried to pull illegal bullshit.
It works out well.
And if they still fire you, then who cares, they aren't the kind of people to be working for anyways.
At interviews make sure that when they ask you why you left, you tell them the honest to God truth.
"They fired me for turning down a promotion", any employer worth a damn is going to find that totally outrageous.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368460</id>
	<title>Run, quick!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260301440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It happened to me.</p><p>I quit and went elsewhere. Admin is a thankless job where you are doubly punished for every mistake or missed deadline. The people you used to work with will gradually fade away from your sphere of close acquaintances until you have no one left. NOt to mention the speed with which your technical skills will lag behind your peers and those of newbies out of school.</p><p>IMHO, it's time to polish up your resume and bail out.</p><p>The idea of "Up or Out" is a failed policy that steals useful people from any organization's roles. It's the brainchild of some gormless git of an MBA with marginal, if any, technical skills, but unfortunately, one who believes that anyone is capable of managing and that everyone wants to.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It happened to me.I quit and went elsewhere .
Admin is a thankless job where you are doubly punished for every mistake or missed deadline .
The people you used to work with will gradually fade away from your sphere of close acquaintances until you have no one left .
NOt to mention the speed with which your technical skills will lag behind your peers and those of newbies out of school.IMHO , it 's time to polish up your resume and bail out.The idea of " Up or Out " is a failed policy that steals useful people from any organization 's roles .
It 's the brainchild of some gormless git of an MBA with marginal , if any , technical skills , but unfortunately , one who believes that anyone is capable of managing and that everyone wants to .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It happened to me.I quit and went elsewhere.
Admin is a thankless job where you are doubly punished for every mistake or missed deadline.
The people you used to work with will gradually fade away from your sphere of close acquaintances until you have no one left.
NOt to mention the speed with which your technical skills will lag behind your peers and those of newbies out of school.IMHO, it's time to polish up your resume and bail out.The idea of "Up or Out" is a failed policy that steals useful people from any organization's roles.
It's the brainchild of some gormless git of an MBA with marginal, if any, technical skills, but unfortunately, one who believes that anyone is capable of managing and that everyone wants to.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369480</id>
	<title>Re:Take it as long as they pay you an extra amount</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260305820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I second that. Being on call is a sure way to no social life and poor employee satisfaction. I have never worked in a company that sufficiently rewarded on call duty (how do you determine if it is sufficiently rewarded you say, well just ask your staff if they *want* to do it - it's that simple).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I second that .
Being on call is a sure way to no social life and poor employee satisfaction .
I have never worked in a company that sufficiently rewarded on call duty ( how do you determine if it is sufficiently rewarded you say , well just ask your staff if they * want * to do it - it 's that simple ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I second that.
Being on call is a sure way to no social life and poor employee satisfaction.
I have never worked in a company that sufficiently rewarded on call duty (how do you determine if it is sufficiently rewarded you say, well just ask your staff if they *want* to do it - it's that simple).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368294</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368614</id>
	<title>Have you reached incompetence level?</title>
	<author>AP31R0N</author>
	<datestamp>1260301980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Organizations sometimes like to promote good performers until they are out of their depth.</p><p>i'm kinda sorta joking here.</p><p>But as most people are saying here, it comes down to what do you want to do?  Do you want your hands dirty or to wear a tie?  Neither is good or bad unless you dislike which ever you are doing.  Don't make the choice based on money.  It might not be worth the raise.</p><p>If you want more money, get a financial education and get it that way.  If you must work, strive to do something you enjoy (even if it doesn't pay as well).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Organizations sometimes like to promote good performers until they are out of their depth.i 'm kinda sorta joking here.But as most people are saying here , it comes down to what do you want to do ?
Do you want your hands dirty or to wear a tie ?
Neither is good or bad unless you dislike which ever you are doing .
Do n't make the choice based on money .
It might not be worth the raise.If you want more money , get a financial education and get it that way .
If you must work , strive to do something you enjoy ( even if it does n't pay as well ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Organizations sometimes like to promote good performers until they are out of their depth.i'm kinda sorta joking here.But as most people are saying here, it comes down to what do you want to do?
Do you want your hands dirty or to wear a tie?
Neither is good or bad unless you dislike which ever you are doing.
Don't make the choice based on money.
It might not be worth the raise.If you want more money, get a financial education and get it that way.
If you must work, strive to do something you enjoy (even if it doesn't pay as well).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369322</id>
	<title>Like Management work or Tech Work?</title>
	<author>pauls2272</author>
	<datestamp>1260305160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> &gt;a new manager essentially told me that I have to move into a different role oriented towards</p><p>If you "have to", I guess you know the answer already.</p><p>The question then is "are you happy doing management stuff instead of technical stuff?"</p><p>Years ago, I accepted a management promotion (at the time, it was the only way to get more money from that company).  I discovered that I hated all the budget/review/meetings stuff.  I ended up keeping all the technical stuff (I never replaced myself) and just did both jobs.  But that didn't really work out and I ended up moving to a new company for a tech only job.  It did teach me that I didn't like management positions much and since then I only do tech work.</p><p>As far as oncall goes, the last couple companies I worked at had the official policy of "your oncall 24x7, 365".  But if you work at a decent shop, there aren't that many calls to begin with and if you have decent co-workers, it is easy enough to cover each other (either officially thru rotating oncall or unofficially by telling the person calling you to call coworker X instead if you are unavailable/busy).</p><p>But I agree with previous posters - it sounds like your company is planning on outsourcing/offshoring the tech groups and will only retain the managers...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; a new manager essentially told me that I have to move into a different role oriented towardsIf you " have to " , I guess you know the answer already.The question then is " are you happy doing management stuff instead of technical stuff ?
" Years ago , I accepted a management promotion ( at the time , it was the only way to get more money from that company ) .
I discovered that I hated all the budget/review/meetings stuff .
I ended up keeping all the technical stuff ( I never replaced myself ) and just did both jobs .
But that did n't really work out and I ended up moving to a new company for a tech only job .
It did teach me that I did n't like management positions much and since then I only do tech work.As far as oncall goes , the last couple companies I worked at had the official policy of " your oncall 24x7 , 365 " .
But if you work at a decent shop , there are n't that many calls to begin with and if you have decent co-workers , it is easy enough to cover each other ( either officially thru rotating oncall or unofficially by telling the person calling you to call coworker X instead if you are unavailable/busy ) .But I agree with previous posters - it sounds like your company is planning on outsourcing/offshoring the tech groups and will only retain the managers.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> &gt;a new manager essentially told me that I have to move into a different role oriented towardsIf you "have to", I guess you know the answer already.The question then is "are you happy doing management stuff instead of technical stuff?
"Years ago, I accepted a management promotion (at the time, it was the only way to get more money from that company).
I discovered that I hated all the budget/review/meetings stuff.
I ended up keeping all the technical stuff (I never replaced myself) and just did both jobs.
But that didn't really work out and I ended up moving to a new company for a tech only job.
It did teach me that I didn't like management positions much and since then I only do tech work.As far as oncall goes, the last couple companies I worked at had the official policy of "your oncall 24x7, 365".
But if you work at a decent shop, there aren't that many calls to begin with and if you have decent co-workers, it is easy enough to cover each other (either officially thru rotating oncall or unofficially by telling the person calling you to call coworker X instead if you are unavailable/busy).But I agree with previous posters - it sounds like your company is planning on outsourcing/offshoring the tech groups and will only retain the managers...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30370476</id>
	<title>Re:There's your sign</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260267540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe the $1,800 bar tabs were a problem too?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe the $ 1,800 bar tabs were a problem too ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe the $1,800 bar tabs were a problem too?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368578</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30370692</id>
	<title>It's All Administrative</title>
	<author>Avatar8</author>
	<datestamp>1260268620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What do you do that your job is still mostly technical?<p>
My job changed around me over the past several years. It is still defined as technical, but I only do 10\% of actual technical, touch a server work. The rest is all administrative, change management, processes and procedures.</p><p>
As we are told when expected to answer the phone at any time, any day of the week - "It's part of the job."</p><p>
Geez, I miss the 90s where techies wrote their own ticket and businesses thrived.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What do you do that your job is still mostly technical ?
My job changed around me over the past several years .
It is still defined as technical , but I only do 10 \ % of actual technical , touch a server work .
The rest is all administrative , change management , processes and procedures .
As we are told when expected to answer the phone at any time , any day of the week - " It 's part of the job .
" Geez , I miss the 90s where techies wrote their own ticket and businesses thrived .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What do you do that your job is still mostly technical?
My job changed around me over the past several years.
It is still defined as technical, but I only do 10\% of actual technical, touch a server work.
The rest is all administrative, change management, processes and procedures.
As we are told when expected to answer the phone at any time, any day of the week - "It's part of the job.
"
Geez, I miss the 90s where techies wrote their own ticket and businesses thrived.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368540</id>
	<title>promotion out of tech</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260301740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I had that happen to me once.
I turned it down and was with the company for 7 more years.
But when layoffs came up....
And forget any promotions after that.
Still no regrets on turning it down.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I had that happen to me once .
I turned it down and was with the company for 7 more years .
But when layoffs came up... . And forget any promotions after that .
Still no regrets on turning it down .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had that happen to me once.
I turned it down and was with the company for 7 more years.
But when layoffs came up....
And forget any promotions after that.
Still no regrets on turning it down.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368720</id>
	<title>Where do you want your career to go?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260302400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I became a manager by accident once.  Trying to get a few people trained up to take over my "unique skill" so I could quit without leaving clients of 8-9 years in the lurch.  Within a month, I wasn't training them, I was managing them.  And hating every minute of it.  I once spent an entire week doing nothing but prioritizing workloads, shifting schedules, handling exceptions, facilitating communication between subcontractors and government agencies, attending meetings [shudder], etc. without doing a single piece of actual work myself.  The next week, I started making a point of doing at least one project a day myself just to do it.  (Yes, I understand that what I was doing was very important and kept the workload of an entire department flowing smoothly and efficiently but it wasn't the kind of work I was hired to do or the kind of work I wanted to do.)  Before I could get around to actually quitting, the company shut down.  When I interviewed for new positions, I didn't mention management on my resume and didn't bring it up unless asked.  When my current boss interviewed me, he seemed concerned that I might be after his job because someone with my years of experience is generally getting ready to make that transition if they haven't already.  I assured him that I had wasn't interested in his job.  I'm good at what I do and I enjoy doing it as long as he does HIS job and insulates me from fools and meetings.  So far, it's working out just fine.</p><p>So are you the guy who likes to DO things or the guy who likes to facilitate the activities of others, improve efficiency, direct future development, etc.?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I became a manager by accident once .
Trying to get a few people trained up to take over my " unique skill " so I could quit without leaving clients of 8-9 years in the lurch .
Within a month , I was n't training them , I was managing them .
And hating every minute of it .
I once spent an entire week doing nothing but prioritizing workloads , shifting schedules , handling exceptions , facilitating communication between subcontractors and government agencies , attending meetings [ shudder ] , etc .
without doing a single piece of actual work myself .
The next week , I started making a point of doing at least one project a day myself just to do it .
( Yes , I understand that what I was doing was very important and kept the workload of an entire department flowing smoothly and efficiently but it was n't the kind of work I was hired to do or the kind of work I wanted to do .
) Before I could get around to actually quitting , the company shut down .
When I interviewed for new positions , I did n't mention management on my resume and did n't bring it up unless asked .
When my current boss interviewed me , he seemed concerned that I might be after his job because someone with my years of experience is generally getting ready to make that transition if they have n't already .
I assured him that I had was n't interested in his job .
I 'm good at what I do and I enjoy doing it as long as he does HIS job and insulates me from fools and meetings .
So far , it 's working out just fine.So are you the guy who likes to DO things or the guy who likes to facilitate the activities of others , improve efficiency , direct future development , etc .
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I became a manager by accident once.
Trying to get a few people trained up to take over my "unique skill" so I could quit without leaving clients of 8-9 years in the lurch.
Within a month, I wasn't training them, I was managing them.
And hating every minute of it.
I once spent an entire week doing nothing but prioritizing workloads, shifting schedules, handling exceptions, facilitating communication between subcontractors and government agencies, attending meetings [shudder], etc.
without doing a single piece of actual work myself.
The next week, I started making a point of doing at least one project a day myself just to do it.
(Yes, I understand that what I was doing was very important and kept the workload of an entire department flowing smoothly and efficiently but it wasn't the kind of work I was hired to do or the kind of work I wanted to do.
)  Before I could get around to actually quitting, the company shut down.
When I interviewed for new positions, I didn't mention management on my resume and didn't bring it up unless asked.
When my current boss interviewed me, he seemed concerned that I might be after his job because someone with my years of experience is generally getting ready to make that transition if they haven't already.
I assured him that I had wasn't interested in his job.
I'm good at what I do and I enjoy doing it as long as he does HIS job and insulates me from fools and meetings.
So far, it's working out just fine.So are you the guy who likes to DO things or the guy who likes to facilitate the activities of others, improve efficiency, direct future development, etc.
?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369574</id>
	<title>Re:Negotiate</title>
	<author>jgrahn</author>
	<datestamp>1260263100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Some people aren't cut out for management, for a variety of reasons, and they either go back to non-management, or transition careers.</p></div></blockquote><p>Or stay and become that lousy and obviously unhappy manager who used to be a good tech.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Some people are n't cut out for management , for a variety of reasons , and they either go back to non-management , or transition careers.Or stay and become that lousy and obviously unhappy manager who used to be a good tech .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some people aren't cut out for management, for a variety of reasons, and they either go back to non-management, or transition careers.Or stay and become that lousy and obviously unhappy manager who used to be a good tech.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368476</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368544</id>
	<title>Don't get comfortable.</title>
	<author>MaWeiTao</author>
	<datestamp>1260301740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Certainly, the prospect of being on-call is unappealing. That's the one big obstacle here. However, I say, for the sake of long term job security do it. For me, the logical progression of my career involves moving up into management at some point. Get stuck down in the trenches and down the road you run into a variety of problems. You get too comfortable and fail to move with the times or you price yourself out of the market. Companies will find someone cheaper, without your family commitments and thus more willing to work overtime, to replace you. It's either that or you start your own business.</p><p>While I don't follow this as much as I'd like, I do believe that you sometimes need to get outside your comfort zone if you want to ensure your success. Having experienced this personally, and seen it happen with friends, letting yourself get too comfortable can prove to be a mistake.</p><p>Now, that said, certainly there are other ways to approach your career. But either way, you're going to have to take measures to ensure long-term job security. And by long-term I don't mean 5-10 years... I mean 10-20 years and longer. You don't want to lose a job 10+ years from now and be unable to find a job because you're essentially too expensive and overqualified for the job you do, but under-qualified for higher level positions. And you lack the contacts necessary to make it easier to find another job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Certainly , the prospect of being on-call is unappealing .
That 's the one big obstacle here .
However , I say , for the sake of long term job security do it .
For me , the logical progression of my career involves moving up into management at some point .
Get stuck down in the trenches and down the road you run into a variety of problems .
You get too comfortable and fail to move with the times or you price yourself out of the market .
Companies will find someone cheaper , without your family commitments and thus more willing to work overtime , to replace you .
It 's either that or you start your own business.While I do n't follow this as much as I 'd like , I do believe that you sometimes need to get outside your comfort zone if you want to ensure your success .
Having experienced this personally , and seen it happen with friends , letting yourself get too comfortable can prove to be a mistake.Now , that said , certainly there are other ways to approach your career .
But either way , you 're going to have to take measures to ensure long-term job security .
And by long-term I do n't mean 5-10 years... I mean 10-20 years and longer .
You do n't want to lose a job 10 + years from now and be unable to find a job because you 're essentially too expensive and overqualified for the job you do , but under-qualified for higher level positions .
And you lack the contacts necessary to make it easier to find another job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Certainly, the prospect of being on-call is unappealing.
That's the one big obstacle here.
However, I say, for the sake of long term job security do it.
For me, the logical progression of my career involves moving up into management at some point.
Get stuck down in the trenches and down the road you run into a variety of problems.
You get too comfortable and fail to move with the times or you price yourself out of the market.
Companies will find someone cheaper, without your family commitments and thus more willing to work overtime, to replace you.
It's either that or you start your own business.While I don't follow this as much as I'd like, I do believe that you sometimes need to get outside your comfort zone if you want to ensure your success.
Having experienced this personally, and seen it happen with friends, letting yourself get too comfortable can prove to be a mistake.Now, that said, certainly there are other ways to approach your career.
But either way, you're going to have to take measures to ensure long-term job security.
And by long-term I don't mean 5-10 years... I mean 10-20 years and longer.
You don't want to lose a job 10+ years from now and be unable to find a job because you're essentially too expensive and overqualified for the job you do, but under-qualified for higher level positions.
And you lack the contacts necessary to make it easier to find another job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368358</id>
	<title>Here's what you have to consider</title>
	<author>mzito</author>
	<datestamp>1260301020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is...is this something that's good for your career? Is it a promotion? Is it a lateral move?</p><p>If it's a promotion you didn't ask for, and you turn it down for very clear reasons, AND you're doing a good job at your current role, there's a good chance you'll be fine. After all a valuable employee at Position X who turns down a promotion to X+1, is still valuable at X. However, it is likely that future promotions will be unavailable to you, at least for a while, as you'll be perceived as "happy where you are"</p><p>On the other hand, if you're being moved laterally to a non-technical position, there's a decent chance they say something like, "Well, lunchlady55 is smart, and very organized, good manager, but not really hands-on technical enough for what we need. We don't want to lose lunchlady55, but we're suffering because of L55's technical weaknesses. Why don't we move L55 laterally to a project manager-type role where we can leverage his/her strengths and backfill the technical position with someone who's very technical but requires lots of oversight"</p><p>In that situation, they're actually being good managers, by recognizing that they have a valuable employee who is just in the wrong position, and trying to rectify the situation. On the gripping hand, they're being bad managers, because if this is the case, it should really be explained to you.</p><p>If the latter situation is the case, you put them in a much rougher position, because they like you, but you're not meeting their needs in one area or another. In this case, you may lose your job.</p><p>The best way to handle this is to have an open and frank conversation with your manager. Talk about what the organizational chart looks like. Who will you be reporting to? Is there a raise or other compensation for being on-call? Be frank - are there concerns about your current job performance that led to this lateral move? Are they eliminating your position and they're just trying to protect you personally?</p><p>Based on all this, you can make an informed decision about what the situation is. You may want to try to negotiate yourself a better deal. For example, you're on call for the weekends, but whenever you have to do off-hours work while on-call, you get 2x that amount of time off your regular day during the week. Or you get paid for on-call time. Don't try to negotiate this until you understand why this is happening.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is...is this something that 's good for your career ?
Is it a promotion ?
Is it a lateral move ? If it 's a promotion you did n't ask for , and you turn it down for very clear reasons , AND you 're doing a good job at your current role , there 's a good chance you 'll be fine .
After all a valuable employee at Position X who turns down a promotion to X + 1 , is still valuable at X. However , it is likely that future promotions will be unavailable to you , at least for a while , as you 'll be perceived as " happy where you are " On the other hand , if you 're being moved laterally to a non-technical position , there 's a decent chance they say something like , " Well , lunchlady55 is smart , and very organized , good manager , but not really hands-on technical enough for what we need .
We do n't want to lose lunchlady55 , but we 're suffering because of L55 's technical weaknesses .
Why do n't we move L55 laterally to a project manager-type role where we can leverage his/her strengths and backfill the technical position with someone who 's very technical but requires lots of oversight " In that situation , they 're actually being good managers , by recognizing that they have a valuable employee who is just in the wrong position , and trying to rectify the situation .
On the gripping hand , they 're being bad managers , because if this is the case , it should really be explained to you.If the latter situation is the case , you put them in a much rougher position , because they like you , but you 're not meeting their needs in one area or another .
In this case , you may lose your job.The best way to handle this is to have an open and frank conversation with your manager .
Talk about what the organizational chart looks like .
Who will you be reporting to ?
Is there a raise or other compensation for being on-call ?
Be frank - are there concerns about your current job performance that led to this lateral move ?
Are they eliminating your position and they 're just trying to protect you personally ? Based on all this , you can make an informed decision about what the situation is .
You may want to try to negotiate yourself a better deal .
For example , you 're on call for the weekends , but whenever you have to do off-hours work while on-call , you get 2x that amount of time off your regular day during the week .
Or you get paid for on-call time .
Do n't try to negotiate this until you understand why this is happening .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is...is this something that's good for your career?
Is it a promotion?
Is it a lateral move?If it's a promotion you didn't ask for, and you turn it down for very clear reasons, AND you're doing a good job at your current role, there's a good chance you'll be fine.
After all a valuable employee at Position X who turns down a promotion to X+1, is still valuable at X. However, it is likely that future promotions will be unavailable to you, at least for a while, as you'll be perceived as "happy where you are"On the other hand, if you're being moved laterally to a non-technical position, there's a decent chance they say something like, "Well, lunchlady55 is smart, and very organized, good manager, but not really hands-on technical enough for what we need.
We don't want to lose lunchlady55, but we're suffering because of L55's technical weaknesses.
Why don't we move L55 laterally to a project manager-type role where we can leverage his/her strengths and backfill the technical position with someone who's very technical but requires lots of oversight"In that situation, they're actually being good managers, by recognizing that they have a valuable employee who is just in the wrong position, and trying to rectify the situation.
On the gripping hand, they're being bad managers, because if this is the case, it should really be explained to you.If the latter situation is the case, you put them in a much rougher position, because they like you, but you're not meeting their needs in one area or another.
In this case, you may lose your job.The best way to handle this is to have an open and frank conversation with your manager.
Talk about what the organizational chart looks like.
Who will you be reporting to?
Is there a raise or other compensation for being on-call?
Be frank - are there concerns about your current job performance that led to this lateral move?
Are they eliminating your position and they're just trying to protect you personally?Based on all this, you can make an informed decision about what the situation is.
You may want to try to negotiate yourself a better deal.
For example, you're on call for the weekends, but whenever you have to do off-hours work while on-call, you get 2x that amount of time off your regular day during the week.
Or you get paid for on-call time.
Don't try to negotiate this until you understand why this is happening.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368348</id>
	<title>it's only money</title>
	<author>fred fleenblat</author>
	<datestamp>1260301020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>say yes and that you are looking forward to the 50\% increase in pay + 30\% bonuses + 100k stock options with 2 year vesting.</p><p>if they blink, you know they aren't serious about having you in management.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>say yes and that you are looking forward to the 50 \ % increase in pay + 30 \ % bonuses + 100k stock options with 2 year vesting.if they blink , you know they are n't serious about having you in management .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>say yes and that you are looking forward to the 50\% increase in pay + 30\% bonuses + 100k stock options with 2 year vesting.if they blink, you know they aren't serious about having you in management.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30371120</id>
	<title>Just say "no" to dumbasses</title>
	<author>pushf popf</author>
	<datestamp>1260270420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you're really good at what you do and like your job, it's time to say no.<br> <br>

Tell them "no", and turn the job down. If they fire you, start your own consulting business.<br> <br>

"Management" is code for "You're responsible when things go wrong" and "On call" is code for "We own you and every molecule of your time." If this is a high profile job, you won't be able to go on vacation or leave town without arranging for coverage, which means that all the major holidays and nice weekends just vanished off your plate.<br> <br>

In fact, as long as I'm on a roll here, "No" is the most valuable word an employee has. Once they know you'll take a stand and won't be a doormat, they'll respect you and will think twice before trying to get you to clean up somebody else's mess. They may also fire you, but the job sucks anyway, so you haven't lost anything.<br> <br>

"We need you to work this weekend."<br>
"No. I don't work weekends"<br> <br>

"We need you to take over this doomed project"<br>
"Sorry, I don't accept projects with little chance of success."<br> <br>

Your life can only suck as much as you're willing to allow it to.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 're really good at what you do and like your job , it 's time to say no .
Tell them " no " , and turn the job down .
If they fire you , start your own consulting business .
" Management " is code for " You 're responsible when things go wrong " and " On call " is code for " We own you and every molecule of your time .
" If this is a high profile job , you wo n't be able to go on vacation or leave town without arranging for coverage , which means that all the major holidays and nice weekends just vanished off your plate .
In fact , as long as I 'm on a roll here , " No " is the most valuable word an employee has .
Once they know you 'll take a stand and wo n't be a doormat , they 'll respect you and will think twice before trying to get you to clean up somebody else 's mess .
They may also fire you , but the job sucks anyway , so you have n't lost anything .
" We need you to work this weekend .
" " No .
I do n't work weekends " " We need you to take over this doomed project " " Sorry , I do n't accept projects with little chance of success .
" Your life can only suck as much as you 're willing to allow it to .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you're really good at what you do and like your job, it's time to say no.
Tell them "no", and turn the job down.
If they fire you, start your own consulting business.
"Management" is code for "You're responsible when things go wrong" and "On call" is code for "We own you and every molecule of your time.
" If this is a high profile job, you won't be able to go on vacation or leave town without arranging for coverage, which means that all the major holidays and nice weekends just vanished off your plate.
In fact, as long as I'm on a roll here, "No" is the most valuable word an employee has.
Once they know you'll take a stand and won't be a doormat, they'll respect you and will think twice before trying to get you to clean up somebody else's mess.
They may also fire you, but the job sucks anyway, so you haven't lost anything.
"We need you to work this weekend.
"
"No.
I don't work weekends" 

"We need you to take over this doomed project"
"Sorry, I don't accept projects with little chance of success.
" 

Your life can only suck as much as you're willing to allow it to.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368294</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30373132</id>
	<title>Lots Here I Agree With</title>
	<author>EpicFailure</author>
	<datestamp>1260283200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>But in the end it boils down to a personal decision about what you want to do with your career and whether you want and are ready for a management position.  I wasn't forced but attempted it twice and was able to successfully back away from it.  I work for a small shop so they were unwilling to let me go due to my experience.  The first time I found that the boss was a shitbird that I was unwilling to sell my soul to.  The second time my boss was unwilling to allow me a full transformation so essentially I had a managerial and technical job at the same time (and didn't really do a great job at either).

Fortunately I got a technical job back - not what I was originally doing, but interesting enough to keep me engaged and happy.  What I learned: I personally am a technician and hope to remain such until retirement.  You'll probably find the first years of management very unfulfilling if you enjoy systems analysis and developing code.  My favorite way of explaining it: most low-level managers are shit passers: upper management has a raft for you to divide and sprinkle on your subordinates; and eventually your subordinates will give you a wad to shine up and pass back up.  Neither of these activities is very fulfilling.

With only 5 years of experience it sounds like you've come a long way.  Bet you enjoy the thrill of accomplishment - that sense of inner satisfaction on a job well done.  I was only a manager for about 2 years.  Never had that feeling the whole time.  So if you have an MBA; really want to be a CIO some day; and are willing to risk becoming technologically obsolete go for it.  Otherwise I'd polish up the resume and start looking.</htmltext>
<tokenext>But in the end it boils down to a personal decision about what you want to do with your career and whether you want and are ready for a management position .
I was n't forced but attempted it twice and was able to successfully back away from it .
I work for a small shop so they were unwilling to let me go due to my experience .
The first time I found that the boss was a shitbird that I was unwilling to sell my soul to .
The second time my boss was unwilling to allow me a full transformation so essentially I had a managerial and technical job at the same time ( and did n't really do a great job at either ) .
Fortunately I got a technical job back - not what I was originally doing , but interesting enough to keep me engaged and happy .
What I learned : I personally am a technician and hope to remain such until retirement .
You 'll probably find the first years of management very unfulfilling if you enjoy systems analysis and developing code .
My favorite way of explaining it : most low-level managers are shit passers : upper management has a raft for you to divide and sprinkle on your subordinates ; and eventually your subordinates will give you a wad to shine up and pass back up .
Neither of these activities is very fulfilling .
With only 5 years of experience it sounds like you 've come a long way .
Bet you enjoy the thrill of accomplishment - that sense of inner satisfaction on a job well done .
I was only a manager for about 2 years .
Never had that feeling the whole time .
So if you have an MBA ; really want to be a CIO some day ; and are willing to risk becoming technologically obsolete go for it .
Otherwise I 'd polish up the resume and start looking .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But in the end it boils down to a personal decision about what you want to do with your career and whether you want and are ready for a management position.
I wasn't forced but attempted it twice and was able to successfully back away from it.
I work for a small shop so they were unwilling to let me go due to my experience.
The first time I found that the boss was a shitbird that I was unwilling to sell my soul to.
The second time my boss was unwilling to allow me a full transformation so essentially I had a managerial and technical job at the same time (and didn't really do a great job at either).
Fortunately I got a technical job back - not what I was originally doing, but interesting enough to keep me engaged and happy.
What I learned: I personally am a technician and hope to remain such until retirement.
You'll probably find the first years of management very unfulfilling if you enjoy systems analysis and developing code.
My favorite way of explaining it: most low-level managers are shit passers: upper management has a raft for you to divide and sprinkle on your subordinates; and eventually your subordinates will give you a wad to shine up and pass back up.
Neither of these activities is very fulfilling.
With only 5 years of experience it sounds like you've come a long way.
Bet you enjoy the thrill of accomplishment - that sense of inner satisfaction on a job well done.
I was only a manager for about 2 years.
Never had that feeling the whole time.
So if you have an MBA; really want to be a CIO some day; and are willing to risk becoming technologically obsolete go for it.
Otherwise I'd polish up the resume and start looking.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368324</id>
	<title>Re:You can't say NO</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260300900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Technical leads with good experience are employable even now (and probably more so than a few months ago). You might have to consider relocation, and/or a bit of a salary cut, but if the alternative is an unwelcome career shift it could be worth it.
Go browse Monster/Dice/etc, see if anything seems to match your experience; don't assume you're trapped, even now.
<p>
The unemployment rate of people who have graduated college is still in the low single digits (3 or 4\% last I checked) - still well above normal, but hardly devastatingly so.  It's the non-college-educated crowd that's well into the double-digits of unemployment, something like 25\%... crunch.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Technical leads with good experience are employable even now ( and probably more so than a few months ago ) .
You might have to consider relocation , and/or a bit of a salary cut , but if the alternative is an unwelcome career shift it could be worth it .
Go browse Monster/Dice/etc , see if anything seems to match your experience ; do n't assume you 're trapped , even now .
The unemployment rate of people who have graduated college is still in the low single digits ( 3 or 4 \ % last I checked ) - still well above normal , but hardly devastatingly so .
It 's the non-college-educated crowd that 's well into the double-digits of unemployment , something like 25 \ % ... crunch .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Technical leads with good experience are employable even now (and probably more so than a few months ago).
You might have to consider relocation, and/or a bit of a salary cut, but if the alternative is an unwelcome career shift it could be worth it.
Go browse Monster/Dice/etc, see if anything seems to match your experience; don't assume you're trapped, even now.
The unemployment rate of people who have graduated college is still in the low single digits (3 or 4\% last I checked) - still well above normal, but hardly devastatingly so.
It's the non-college-educated crowd that's well into the double-digits of unemployment, something like 25\%... crunch.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30370042</id>
	<title>Pull a Captain Kirk</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260265440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do something bad enough to get demoted, but not so bad that you get fired.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do something bad enough to get demoted , but not so bad that you get fired .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do something bad enough to get demoted, but not so bad that you get fired.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368490</id>
	<title>Depends on the employer</title>
	<author>bobdehnhardt</author>
	<datestamp>1260301560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I made the transition from tech to management, but it was voluntary - I wanted to make the move. My employer recognizes that not all techies want that (or would be particularly good at it), and so we work pretty hard to make sure there are non-management or non-supervisory career paths for our technical staff.</p><p>That said, it's my understanding that we're somewhat rare in this. Most employers seem to have the mindset that if you're not interested in moving beyond your technical role, you have no ambition. My best advise would be to talk to your employer, tell them you're happy with your current role and would prefer to excel there than move into a role that doesn't fit your strengths and skill set. They may respond well to that, but it's likely that they won't.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I made the transition from tech to management , but it was voluntary - I wanted to make the move .
My employer recognizes that not all techies want that ( or would be particularly good at it ) , and so we work pretty hard to make sure there are non-management or non-supervisory career paths for our technical staff.That said , it 's my understanding that we 're somewhat rare in this .
Most employers seem to have the mindset that if you 're not interested in moving beyond your technical role , you have no ambition .
My best advise would be to talk to your employer , tell them you 're happy with your current role and would prefer to excel there than move into a role that does n't fit your strengths and skill set .
They may respond well to that , but it 's likely that they wo n't .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I made the transition from tech to management, but it was voluntary - I wanted to make the move.
My employer recognizes that not all techies want that (or would be particularly good at it), and so we work pretty hard to make sure there are non-management or non-supervisory career paths for our technical staff.That said, it's my understanding that we're somewhat rare in this.
Most employers seem to have the mindset that if you're not interested in moving beyond your technical role, you have no ambition.
My best advise would be to talk to your employer, tell them you're happy with your current role and would prefer to excel there than move into a role that doesn't fit your strengths and skill set.
They may respond well to that, but it's likely that they won't.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30370168</id>
	<title>It Depends</title>
	<author>jimicus</author>
	<datestamp>1260266220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm from the UK, not the US, so take this with as much salt as you think it needs.  Note:  I'm not a developer, I'm a sysadmin, and sysadmin salaries are generally lower in the UK.</p><p>There are two ways of looking at this:  first, you look very seriously at moving on.   Let's face it, if you <b>can</b> refuse this job your days at this place are likely numbered.</p><p>Second, you see it as an opportunity.  I don't know about where you are but in the UK there is a very definite ceiling to how much you can earn without going into management.  If you are already at or near this ceiling (and if money is important to you), this basically gives you a job with "manager" on your CV without all the hassle of looking for a new job and interviewing - at a time when the economy's not exactly doing that well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm from the UK , not the US , so take this with as much salt as you think it needs .
Note : I 'm not a developer , I 'm a sysadmin , and sysadmin salaries are generally lower in the UK.There are two ways of looking at this : first , you look very seriously at moving on .
Let 's face it , if you can refuse this job your days at this place are likely numbered.Second , you see it as an opportunity .
I do n't know about where you are but in the UK there is a very definite ceiling to how much you can earn without going into management .
If you are already at or near this ceiling ( and if money is important to you ) , this basically gives you a job with " manager " on your CV without all the hassle of looking for a new job and interviewing - at a time when the economy 's not exactly doing that well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm from the UK, not the US, so take this with as much salt as you think it needs.
Note:  I'm not a developer, I'm a sysadmin, and sysadmin salaries are generally lower in the UK.There are two ways of looking at this:  first, you look very seriously at moving on.
Let's face it, if you can refuse this job your days at this place are likely numbered.Second, you see it as an opportunity.
I don't know about where you are but in the UK there is a very definite ceiling to how much you can earn without going into management.
If you are already at or near this ceiling (and if money is important to you), this basically gives you a job with "manager" on your CV without all the hassle of looking for a new job and interviewing - at a time when the economy's not exactly doing that well.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30371272</id>
	<title>Re:A lot of bad suggestions...</title>
	<author>Grishnakh</author>
	<datestamp>1260271200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lots of companies here in the USA (including at-will states, which is over 40 of them I believe including the one I live in) pay severance packages to people they lay off.  "At will" really doesn't count for much, because it's trivially easy to bring an unfair termination lawsuit alleging age discrimination or whatever, and it costs a lot more for the company to defend against this suit than to just pay a severance.  Even though I'm not old at all, I got very generous severance packages at my last two companies because I was laid off (and the fact that I immediately got new jobs paying ~20\% more than the previous ones turned each layoff into a big-ass bonus).</p><p>Of course, this all depends on the company.  Large, F500 companies are much more likely to do this kind of thing.  Small, 50-employee companies are extremely unlikely.  My last two companies were very large.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lots of companies here in the USA ( including at-will states , which is over 40 of them I believe including the one I live in ) pay severance packages to people they lay off .
" At will " really does n't count for much , because it 's trivially easy to bring an unfair termination lawsuit alleging age discrimination or whatever , and it costs a lot more for the company to defend against this suit than to just pay a severance .
Even though I 'm not old at all , I got very generous severance packages at my last two companies because I was laid off ( and the fact that I immediately got new jobs paying ~ 20 \ % more than the previous ones turned each layoff into a big-ass bonus ) .Of course , this all depends on the company .
Large , F500 companies are much more likely to do this kind of thing .
Small , 50-employee companies are extremely unlikely .
My last two companies were very large .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lots of companies here in the USA (including at-will states, which is over 40 of them I believe including the one I live in) pay severance packages to people they lay off.
"At will" really doesn't count for much, because it's trivially easy to bring an unfair termination lawsuit alleging age discrimination or whatever, and it costs a lot more for the company to defend against this suit than to just pay a severance.
Even though I'm not old at all, I got very generous severance packages at my last two companies because I was laid off (and the fact that I immediately got new jobs paying ~20\% more than the previous ones turned each layoff into a big-ass bonus).Of course, this all depends on the company.
Large, F500 companies are much more likely to do this kind of thing.
Small, 50-employee companies are extremely unlikely.
My last two companies were very large.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368420</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368930</id>
	<title>READING COMPREHENSION</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260303360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously people, is it that hard to read a summary?</p><p>He is being asked to come to a new position that will be 5 days a week</p><p>"RATHER THAN" 10h x 4days + on call.</p><p>What the hell?  It seems that everyone who read it, read it like a 2nd grader.</p><p>How many managers do you know who are on call?  really?  that many?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously people , is it that hard to read a summary ? He is being asked to come to a new position that will be 5 days a week " RATHER THAN " 10h x 4days + on call.What the hell ?
It seems that everyone who read it , read it like a 2nd grader.How many managers do you know who are on call ?
really ? that many ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously people, is it that hard to read a summary?He is being asked to come to a new position that will be 5 days a week"RATHER THAN" 10h x 4days + on call.What the hell?
It seems that everyone who read it, read it like a 2nd grader.How many managers do you know who are on call?
really?  that many?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369442</id>
	<title>Works for me...</title>
	<author>Pulzar</author>
	<datestamp>1260305640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I wasn't forced into it, I demanded it, but I guess that only makes for different paths to the same position. I like it. You add 20-30\% of administrative tasks to your daily routine that you can't avoid, but the rest is your time to manage. You can be as technical as you want, or non-technical as you want. You're the one distributing the tasks, so you can take stuff that you want to work on, assign things that you don't. You're never going to be your own boss in a company that you don't own, but at least being a manager in one gets you closer to being in control, especially if you have a good working relationship with your next level manager.</p><p>Of course, this might be just the way our company is structured... we don't really have a technical lead type of role -- the managers are both people and technical leads. If you want to stay on purely technical track you become an "architect", a sort of a technical adviser to the managers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was n't forced into it , I demanded it , but I guess that only makes for different paths to the same position .
I like it .
You add 20-30 \ % of administrative tasks to your daily routine that you ca n't avoid , but the rest is your time to manage .
You can be as technical as you want , or non-technical as you want .
You 're the one distributing the tasks , so you can take stuff that you want to work on , assign things that you do n't .
You 're never going to be your own boss in a company that you do n't own , but at least being a manager in one gets you closer to being in control , especially if you have a good working relationship with your next level manager.Of course , this might be just the way our company is structured... we do n't really have a technical lead type of role -- the managers are both people and technical leads .
If you want to stay on purely technical track you become an " architect " , a sort of a technical adviser to the managers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wasn't forced into it, I demanded it, but I guess that only makes for different paths to the same position.
I like it.
You add 20-30\% of administrative tasks to your daily routine that you can't avoid, but the rest is your time to manage.
You can be as technical as you want, or non-technical as you want.
You're the one distributing the tasks, so you can take stuff that you want to work on, assign things that you don't.
You're never going to be your own boss in a company that you don't own, but at least being a manager in one gets you closer to being in control, especially if you have a good working relationship with your next level manager.Of course, this might be just the way our company is structured... we don't really have a technical lead type of role -- the managers are both people and technical leads.
If you want to stay on purely technical track you become an "architect", a sort of a technical adviser to the managers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30371096</id>
	<title>Re:Negotiate</title>
	<author>MikeURL</author>
	<datestamp>1260270360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've noticed people have a nasty habit of not calculating their salary on a per-hour basis.  The time that you are not working is, as you noted, very valuable time.  It is the time when you do a lot of the stuff that a person needs to do in order to be happy and fulfilled.
<br> <br>
If a promotion hoovers away 20 more hours a week and takes your per hour down 5\% I think that is a horrible deal.  In fact, for every hour above 35 I'd want an increasing incremental amount per hour.  My reasoning would be that as the amount of hours goes up it is cutting more and more into the meat of my personal life.  At least that is how I approach it even if the actual reality is a little harder than just demanding more because you want it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've noticed people have a nasty habit of not calculating their salary on a per-hour basis .
The time that you are not working is , as you noted , very valuable time .
It is the time when you do a lot of the stuff that a person needs to do in order to be happy and fulfilled .
If a promotion hoovers away 20 more hours a week and takes your per hour down 5 \ % I think that is a horrible deal .
In fact , for every hour above 35 I 'd want an increasing incremental amount per hour .
My reasoning would be that as the amount of hours goes up it is cutting more and more into the meat of my personal life .
At least that is how I approach it even if the actual reality is a little harder than just demanding more because you want it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've noticed people have a nasty habit of not calculating their salary on a per-hour basis.
The time that you are not working is, as you noted, very valuable time.
It is the time when you do a lot of the stuff that a person needs to do in order to be happy and fulfilled.
If a promotion hoovers away 20 more hours a week and takes your per hour down 5\% I think that is a horrible deal.
In fact, for every hour above 35 I'd want an increasing incremental amount per hour.
My reasoning would be that as the amount of hours goes up it is cutting more and more into the meat of my personal life.
At least that is how I approach it even if the actual reality is a little harder than just demanding more because you want it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369158</id>
	<title>Thankfully, some companies have a technical track.</title>
	<author>Richard Steiner</author>
	<datestamp>1260304320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They finally realized that there are some technie types who are very good on the technical side and who were able to significantly contribute in that way.</p><p>While moving into management might have its compensatory and political benefits, it's no longer a hard requirement for advancement.  I love that I have an option.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p><p>hard for me to be sympathetic about the on call bit, since I've been on call for most of my 21-year career...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They finally realized that there are some technie types who are very good on the technical side and who were able to significantly contribute in that way.While moving into management might have its compensatory and political benefits , it 's no longer a hard requirement for advancement .
I love that I have an option .
: - ) hard for me to be sympathetic about the on call bit , since I 've been on call for most of my 21-year career.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They finally realized that there are some technie types who are very good on the technical side and who were able to significantly contribute in that way.While moving into management might have its compensatory and political benefits, it's no longer a hard requirement for advancement.
I love that I have an option.
:-)hard for me to be sympathetic about the on call bit, since I've been on call for most of my 21-year career...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30374588</id>
	<title>Thanks for the response everyone!</title>
	<author>lunchlady55</author>
	<datestamp>1260300000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thanks for helping me out Slashdotters!</p><p>Shout outs to the following people who gave me enough insight or a good enough laugh to cut and paste their names into this post:</p><p>Fritz T. Coyote<br>BlueKitties<br>fred fleenblat<br>mzito<br>puppetman<br>TrentTheThief<br>Foxxxy<br>HangingChad<br>Locke2005<br>Anonymous Coward on Tue December 08, 13:04 (#30368772)<br>mschuyler<br>ecotax<br>Anonymous Coward on Tue December 08, 13:17 (#30368952)<br>tool462<br>Anonymous Coward on Tue December 08, 13:27 (#30369058)<br>johnlcallaway<br>furby076<br>bensode<br>Duhavid<br>drakaan<br>Anonymous Coward on Tue December 08, 13:43 (#30369288)<br>pauls2272<br>Fencepost<br>misnohmer<br>Grishnakh<br>novakom<br>Avatar8<br>King\_TJ<br>DerekLyons<br>issaqua<br>k'orwyn</p><p>Check back in a few months and I'll let you all know what happened.<br>-lunchlady55</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thanks for helping me out Slashdotters ! Shout outs to the following people who gave me enough insight or a good enough laugh to cut and paste their names into this post : Fritz T. CoyoteBlueKittiesfred fleenblatmzitopuppetmanTrentTheThiefFoxxxyHangingChadLocke2005Anonymous Coward on Tue December 08 , 13 : 04 ( # 30368772 ) mschuylerecotaxAnonymous Coward on Tue December 08 , 13 : 17 ( # 30368952 ) tool462Anonymous Coward on Tue December 08 , 13 : 27 ( # 30369058 ) johnlcallawayfurby076bensodeDuhaviddrakaanAnonymous Coward on Tue December 08 , 13 : 43 ( # 30369288 ) pauls2272FencepostmisnohmerGrishnakhnovakomAvatar8King \ _TJDerekLyonsissaquak'orwynCheck back in a few months and I 'll let you all know what happened.-lunchlady55</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thanks for helping me out Slashdotters!Shout outs to the following people who gave me enough insight or a good enough laugh to cut and paste their names into this post:Fritz T. CoyoteBlueKittiesfred fleenblatmzitopuppetmanTrentTheThiefFoxxxyHangingChadLocke2005Anonymous Coward on Tue December 08, 13:04 (#30368772)mschuylerecotaxAnonymous Coward on Tue December 08, 13:17 (#30368952)tool462Anonymous Coward on Tue December 08, 13:27 (#30369058)johnlcallawayfurby076bensodeDuhaviddrakaanAnonymous Coward on Tue December 08, 13:43 (#30369288)pauls2272FencepostmisnohmerGrishnakhnovakomAvatar8King\_TJDerekLyonsissaquak'orwynCheck back in a few months and I'll let you all know what happened.-lunchlady55</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369320</id>
	<title>Do It and Do It Well</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260305160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>"I have been happily working for my current employer for five years. After moving up the ranks within my department from Intern to Technical Lead, a new manager essentially told me that I have to move into a different role oriented towards, 'administrative duties and management.' We are a 24x7 shop, and will now be required to work five 8-hour days rather than four 10-hour days and be on call during the other two days of the week. Every week. Including holidays. My question is, have any Slashdotters been forced into a non-technical role, and how did it work out? Has anyone said 'No thanks' to this kind of promotion and managed to keep their jobs?"</p></div><p>Don't fight it, go with the flow. People with great technical skills and great people management skills are difficult to find and retain.</p><p>Spend a year in the management trenches and do the best job you can. Try to earn an award for being the best manager in the company.</p><p>After that your resume is made of solid gold.<br>Someone with technical skills who knows how to deal with management (because they've been on that side) is an amazingly good find.<br>Someone with management skills who knows how to deal with technical people (because they've been on that side) is an amazingly good find.</p><p>The company is "forcing" you to become a more marketable employee?<br>Take the opportunity and run with it!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" I have been happily working for my current employer for five years .
After moving up the ranks within my department from Intern to Technical Lead , a new manager essentially told me that I have to move into a different role oriented towards , 'administrative duties and management .
' We are a 24x7 shop , and will now be required to work five 8-hour days rather than four 10-hour days and be on call during the other two days of the week .
Every week .
Including holidays .
My question is , have any Slashdotters been forced into a non-technical role , and how did it work out ?
Has anyone said 'No thanks ' to this kind of promotion and managed to keep their jobs ?
" Do n't fight it , go with the flow .
People with great technical skills and great people management skills are difficult to find and retain.Spend a year in the management trenches and do the best job you can .
Try to earn an award for being the best manager in the company.After that your resume is made of solid gold.Someone with technical skills who knows how to deal with management ( because they 've been on that side ) is an amazingly good find.Someone with management skills who knows how to deal with technical people ( because they 've been on that side ) is an amazingly good find.The company is " forcing " you to become a more marketable employee ? Take the opportunity and run with it !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"I have been happily working for my current employer for five years.
After moving up the ranks within my department from Intern to Technical Lead, a new manager essentially told me that I have to move into a different role oriented towards, 'administrative duties and management.
' We are a 24x7 shop, and will now be required to work five 8-hour days rather than four 10-hour days and be on call during the other two days of the week.
Every week.
Including holidays.
My question is, have any Slashdotters been forced into a non-technical role, and how did it work out?
Has anyone said 'No thanks' to this kind of promotion and managed to keep their jobs?
"Don't fight it, go with the flow.
People with great technical skills and great people management skills are difficult to find and retain.Spend a year in the management trenches and do the best job you can.
Try to earn an award for being the best manager in the company.After that your resume is made of solid gold.Someone with technical skills who knows how to deal with management (because they've been on that side) is an amazingly good find.Someone with management skills who knows how to deal with technical people (because they've been on that side) is an amazingly good find.The company is "forcing" you to become a more marketable employee?Take the opportunity and run with it!
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368294</id>
	<title>Re:Take it as long as they pay you an extra amount</title>
	<author>unformed</author>
	<datestamp>1260300840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Honestly, I'd rather get paid less than be on call.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Honestly , I 'd rather get paid less than be on call .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Honestly, I'd rather get paid less than be on call.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368070</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369858</id>
	<title>Surly Coder</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260264420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ok, here's the secret. Know that really surly coder guy that smells funny, eats at his desk, won't answer his phone, has weird facial hair, and is the stereo-typical software developer?  Management and ambitious types will say "He'll never move up." and "that's the type of guy who will never go anywhere."  They'll never consider him for management, but they'll keep him as long as he keeps writing good code for a decent salary.</p><p>Meanwhile, you can wear your sandals and DEFCON/Hawaiian shirts because you're eccentric. You can miss meetings because you are terribly busy. You can ignore your phone and email because you are focused on your coding. You'll get hassled a bit every now and then, and you'll probably never make any real money, but if you just love what you do, just do it well. It helps if you throw in a little harmless absentmindedness every now and then, like sticking two pens in your shirt pocket, one behind your ear, and asking everyone you run into that day if you can borrow a pen.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ok , here 's the secret .
Know that really surly coder guy that smells funny , eats at his desk , wo n't answer his phone , has weird facial hair , and is the stereo-typical software developer ?
Management and ambitious types will say " He 'll never move up .
" and " that 's the type of guy who will never go anywhere .
" They 'll never consider him for management , but they 'll keep him as long as he keeps writing good code for a decent salary.Meanwhile , you can wear your sandals and DEFCON/Hawaiian shirts because you 're eccentric .
You can miss meetings because you are terribly busy .
You can ignore your phone and email because you are focused on your coding .
You 'll get hassled a bit every now and then , and you 'll probably never make any real money , but if you just love what you do , just do it well .
It helps if you throw in a little harmless absentmindedness every now and then , like sticking two pens in your shirt pocket , one behind your ear , and asking everyone you run into that day if you can borrow a pen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ok, here's the secret.
Know that really surly coder guy that smells funny, eats at his desk, won't answer his phone, has weird facial hair, and is the stereo-typical software developer?
Management and ambitious types will say "He'll never move up.
" and "that's the type of guy who will never go anywhere.
"  They'll never consider him for management, but they'll keep him as long as he keeps writing good code for a decent salary.Meanwhile, you can wear your sandals and DEFCON/Hawaiian shirts because you're eccentric.
You can miss meetings because you are terribly busy.
You can ignore your phone and email because you are focused on your coding.
You'll get hassled a bit every now and then, and you'll probably never make any real money, but if you just love what you do, just do it well.
It helps if you throw in a little harmless absentmindedness every now and then, like sticking two pens in your shirt pocket, one behind your ear, and asking everyone you run into that day if you can borrow a pen.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30371376</id>
	<title>Managerial On Call?</title>
	<author>md27</author>
	<datestamp>1260271680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>On call for what, emergency meetings about requirements documents or SLAs?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D

But seriously, if you enjoy the tech don't move away from it, not everyone wants to go sit in meetings all day, and they should find a way to let you advance and stay in the technical realm, or at least keep giving you raises/random title upgrades to keep things interesting.</htmltext>
<tokenext>On call for what , emergency meetings about requirements documents or SLAs ?
: D But seriously , if you enjoy the tech do n't move away from it , not everyone wants to go sit in meetings all day , and they should find a way to let you advance and stay in the technical realm , or at least keep giving you raises/random title upgrades to keep things interesting .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On call for what, emergency meetings about requirements documents or SLAs?
:D

But seriously, if you enjoy the tech don't move away from it, not everyone wants to go sit in meetings all day, and they should find a way to let you advance and stay in the technical realm, or at least keep giving you raises/random title upgrades to keep things interesting.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368270</id>
	<title>Re:You can't say NO</title>
	<author>PeanutButterBreath</author>
	<datestamp>1260300780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Disagree.  Presumably, they would need to fill the Tech Lead role once they promoted him, so his old job would need to be filled.  Only a cartoonishly f'ed up company would bring in <i>two</i> outside hires just to spite a long-time employee who does not want to be a manager.</p><p>On the other hand, it would amount to constructing a ceiling over one's own progress within the organization.</p><p>Both of my parents moved up from teaching/tech work to managerial positions, and neither was particularly happy.  My father eventually went back to teaching at a lower salary and is much happier in general.</p><p>Part of me thinks there is a serious problem when skilled labor is force-funneled into management.  On the other hand, after a point it only makes sense that pay increasse would eventually taper off to cost-of-living adjustments if an employee is unwilling to move out of their current position.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Disagree .
Presumably , they would need to fill the Tech Lead role once they promoted him , so his old job would need to be filled .
Only a cartoonishly f'ed up company would bring in two outside hires just to spite a long-time employee who does not want to be a manager.On the other hand , it would amount to constructing a ceiling over one 's own progress within the organization.Both of my parents moved up from teaching/tech work to managerial positions , and neither was particularly happy .
My father eventually went back to teaching at a lower salary and is much happier in general.Part of me thinks there is a serious problem when skilled labor is force-funneled into management .
On the other hand , after a point it only makes sense that pay increasse would eventually taper off to cost-of-living adjustments if an employee is unwilling to move out of their current position .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Disagree.
Presumably, they would need to fill the Tech Lead role once they promoted him, so his old job would need to be filled.
Only a cartoonishly f'ed up company would bring in two outside hires just to spite a long-time employee who does not want to be a manager.On the other hand, it would amount to constructing a ceiling over one's own progress within the organization.Both of my parents moved up from teaching/tech work to managerial positions, and neither was particularly happy.
My father eventually went back to teaching at a lower salary and is much happier in general.Part of me thinks there is a serious problem when skilled labor is force-funneled into management.
On the other hand, after a point it only makes sense that pay increasse would eventually taper off to cost-of-living adjustments if an employee is unwilling to move out of their current position.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368072</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30379084</id>
	<title>Re:Wow, where to start</title>
	<author>yuhong</author>
	<datestamp>1259608440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Badly. I got pushed from the technical lead into a VP position managing that whole end of the business in a mid-cap company. In that role I got pulled into budget battles, which are normal, relationship management with partners, also normal and locked into the quarterly numbers game, which means a lot of meetings with the auditors. Too keep the technical aspects on track we had to bring in a new technical guy. You can see where this is going. I could have fired the new tech guy so I had a job to go back to when we streamlined after the initial development phase but it just didn't seem fair. I got a nice bonus and severance, plus my options were golden, but I essentially worked myself out of a job and was penalized for hiring competent people.</p></div><p>Sounds like you had to "maximize shareholder value", which is so fundamentally flawed it isn't even funny.
I even submitted a link to a paper on these flaws to Slashdot:
<a href="http://slashdot.org/submission/1125550/Ghoshals-paper-on-the-flaws-of-shareholder-value" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">http://slashdot.org/submission/1125550/Ghoshals-paper-on-the-flaws-of-shareholder-value</a> [slashdot.org]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Badly .
I got pushed from the technical lead into a VP position managing that whole end of the business in a mid-cap company .
In that role I got pulled into budget battles , which are normal , relationship management with partners , also normal and locked into the quarterly numbers game , which means a lot of meetings with the auditors .
Too keep the technical aspects on track we had to bring in a new technical guy .
You can see where this is going .
I could have fired the new tech guy so I had a job to go back to when we streamlined after the initial development phase but it just did n't seem fair .
I got a nice bonus and severance , plus my options were golden , but I essentially worked myself out of a job and was penalized for hiring competent people.Sounds like you had to " maximize shareholder value " , which is so fundamentally flawed it is n't even funny .
I even submitted a link to a paper on these flaws to Slashdot : http : //slashdot.org/submission/1125550/Ghoshals-paper-on-the-flaws-of-shareholder-value [ slashdot.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Badly.
I got pushed from the technical lead into a VP position managing that whole end of the business in a mid-cap company.
In that role I got pulled into budget battles, which are normal, relationship management with partners, also normal and locked into the quarterly numbers game, which means a lot of meetings with the auditors.
Too keep the technical aspects on track we had to bring in a new technical guy.
You can see where this is going.
I could have fired the new tech guy so I had a job to go back to when we streamlined after the initial development phase but it just didn't seem fair.
I got a nice bonus and severance, plus my options were golden, but I essentially worked myself out of a job and was penalized for hiring competent people.Sounds like you had to "maximize shareholder value", which is so fundamentally flawed it isn't even funny.
I even submitted a link to a paper on these flaws to Slashdot:
http://slashdot.org/submission/1125550/Ghoshals-paper-on-the-flaws-of-shareholder-value [slashdot.org]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368578</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30379100</id>
	<title>What is important?</title>
	<author>ResidentSourcerer</author>
	<datestamp>1259608560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do you want to be a manager?  Some people take to this, some don't.  That you are asking the question here makes me think that you either don't want it, or aren't ready for it.</p><p>What are the duties?  Do you want to do that?</p><p>One possible answer:  "I don't feel ready for an administrative role at this time.  I would like to remain in my present position for 2-3 more years."</p><p>I have seen people get sucked into a job they hate because of the pay, and then get trapped there because they think they are addicted tot he pay.  I have cleverly negotiated a 66\% pay cut over the last 4 years, but now I'm my own boss.  I sleep to 7:30.  We don't miss the money.</p><p>To me 5 day week and on call would be major losses.  Be sure you get it nailed down what the compensation is for both being on call, and for responding to on call.  If my wife and I are in town on an on-call day, we either have to travel in separate vehicles, or she has to be ready to either wait for me or come in and pick me up when the problem is fixed.  It means I can't go hunting,hiking, canoeing -- anything that takes me more than a few minutes further from the city.</p><p>I currently live an hours drive from the city of Edmonton.  If I were on call:</p><p>1.  two hours wages at overtime rates for each on-call shift.<br>2.  1.5 hour response time.<br>3.  Company picks up fee for cell phone.<br>4.  Connectivity to solve IT problems remotely -- they pick up the charge.<br>5.  If have to go in, they pay for my travel time + 25 cents per kilometer.<br>6.  At least 50\% of my weekends have no on-call shift.<br>7.  As a bargaining chip:  1 more day paid holiday for each three on call days.<br>8.  I can specify 10 days per year that I cannot be on call: Wife's/kids birthday, aniversary.<br>9.  Certain family time holidays the remuneration is at 3 times standard wage. (Christmas...)<br>10.  If I am in charge of uptime, I get a yearly bonus based on how few times someone had to come in to fix something.  And I get a reasonable equipment budget to inplement that failsafe system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do you want to be a manager ?
Some people take to this , some do n't .
That you are asking the question here makes me think that you either do n't want it , or are n't ready for it.What are the duties ?
Do you want to do that ? One possible answer : " I do n't feel ready for an administrative role at this time .
I would like to remain in my present position for 2-3 more years .
" I have seen people get sucked into a job they hate because of the pay , and then get trapped there because they think they are addicted tot he pay .
I have cleverly negotiated a 66 \ % pay cut over the last 4 years , but now I 'm my own boss .
I sleep to 7 : 30 .
We do n't miss the money.To me 5 day week and on call would be major losses .
Be sure you get it nailed down what the compensation is for both being on call , and for responding to on call .
If my wife and I are in town on an on-call day , we either have to travel in separate vehicles , or she has to be ready to either wait for me or come in and pick me up when the problem is fixed .
It means I ca n't go hunting,hiking , canoeing -- anything that takes me more than a few minutes further from the city.I currently live an hours drive from the city of Edmonton .
If I were on call : 1. two hours wages at overtime rates for each on-call shift.2 .
1.5 hour response time.3 .
Company picks up fee for cell phone.4 .
Connectivity to solve IT problems remotely -- they pick up the charge.5 .
If have to go in , they pay for my travel time + 25 cents per kilometer.6 .
At least 50 \ % of my weekends have no on-call shift.7 .
As a bargaining chip : 1 more day paid holiday for each three on call days.8 .
I can specify 10 days per year that I can not be on call : Wife 's/kids birthday , aniversary.9 .
Certain family time holidays the remuneration is at 3 times standard wage .
( Christmas... ) 10. If I am in charge of uptime , I get a yearly bonus based on how few times someone had to come in to fix something .
And I get a reasonable equipment budget to inplement that failsafe system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do you want to be a manager?
Some people take to this, some don't.
That you are asking the question here makes me think that you either don't want it, or aren't ready for it.What are the duties?
Do you want to do that?One possible answer:  "I don't feel ready for an administrative role at this time.
I would like to remain in my present position for 2-3 more years.
"I have seen people get sucked into a job they hate because of the pay, and then get trapped there because they think they are addicted tot he pay.
I have cleverly negotiated a 66\% pay cut over the last 4 years, but now I'm my own boss.
I sleep to 7:30.
We don't miss the money.To me 5 day week and on call would be major losses.
Be sure you get it nailed down what the compensation is for both being on call, and for responding to on call.
If my wife and I are in town on an on-call day, we either have to travel in separate vehicles, or she has to be ready to either wait for me or come in and pick me up when the problem is fixed.
It means I can't go hunting,hiking, canoeing -- anything that takes me more than a few minutes further from the city.I currently live an hours drive from the city of Edmonton.
If I were on call:1.  two hours wages at overtime rates for each on-call shift.2.
1.5 hour response time.3.
Company picks up fee for cell phone.4.
Connectivity to solve IT problems remotely -- they pick up the charge.5.
If have to go in, they pay for my travel time + 25 cents per kilometer.6.
At least 50\% of my weekends have no on-call shift.7.
As a bargaining chip:  1 more day paid holiday for each three on call days.8.
I can specify 10 days per year that I cannot be on call: Wife's/kids birthday, aniversary.9.
Certain family time holidays the remuneration is at 3 times standard wage.
(Christmas...)10.  If I am in charge of uptime, I get a yearly bonus based on how few times someone had to come in to fix something.
And I get a reasonable equipment budget to inplement that failsafe system.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369882</id>
	<title>Re:Negotiate</title>
	<author>flibuste</author>
	<datestamp>1260264540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd agree mostly...besides the a) Competence. Getting into management positions rarely have to do with being competent. Actually, it's the Peters principle: the higher you get in the hieararchy, the less competent you are going to be at doing your job, since you were doing it so well beforehand. You stop getting higher when you're no longer competent for the position and you stay there. Makes for a lot of non-competent people.
</p><p>B) is more accurate: you need to show that your attitude is changeable according to whom you speak and pat the right bear at the right time. Makes for a lot of faked attitudes. This is sometimes called "politics".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd agree mostly...besides the a ) Competence .
Getting into management positions rarely have to do with being competent .
Actually , it 's the Peters principle : the higher you get in the hieararchy , the less competent you are going to be at doing your job , since you were doing it so well beforehand .
You stop getting higher when you 're no longer competent for the position and you stay there .
Makes for a lot of non-competent people .
B ) is more accurate : you need to show that your attitude is changeable according to whom you speak and pat the right bear at the right time .
Makes for a lot of faked attitudes .
This is sometimes called " politics " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd agree mostly...besides the a) Competence.
Getting into management positions rarely have to do with being competent.
Actually, it's the Peters principle: the higher you get in the hieararchy, the less competent you are going to be at doing your job, since you were doing it so well beforehand.
You stop getting higher when you're no longer competent for the position and you stay there.
Makes for a lot of non-competent people.
B) is more accurate: you need to show that your attitude is changeable according to whom you speak and pat the right bear at the right time.
Makes for a lot of faked attitudes.
This is sometimes called "politics".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368476</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369906</id>
	<title>Worried about being on call?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260264720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a manager I tend to think if we have a scenario in which a plan is not in place then yes you need to call me.<br>If it is for a stupid reason for which I get called then you at least get the enjoyment of ripping any shred of dignitity that person had. If it is a reasonable question then you did not provide adequate planning / training / resources for the task.<br>One thing of caution if your higher food chain likes to have hourly meetings with piles of paperwork ect. I would look for a different job as you just hit the ceiling at that company.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a manager I tend to think if we have a scenario in which a plan is not in place then yes you need to call me.If it is for a stupid reason for which I get called then you at least get the enjoyment of ripping any shred of dignitity that person had .
If it is a reasonable question then you did not provide adequate planning / training / resources for the task.One thing of caution if your higher food chain likes to have hourly meetings with piles of paperwork ect .
I would look for a different job as you just hit the ceiling at that company .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a manager I tend to think if we have a scenario in which a plan is not in place then yes you need to call me.If it is for a stupid reason for which I get called then you at least get the enjoyment of ripping any shred of dignitity that person had.
If it is a reasonable question then you did not provide adequate planning / training / resources for the task.One thing of caution if your higher food chain likes to have hourly meetings with piles of paperwork ect.
I would look for a different job as you just hit the ceiling at that company.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30372010</id>
	<title>The real technical career path.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260275280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unless the technical area you are working on is core to the company (basically a company in IT) the career path always leads out of technical work. This is just like they say the best researchers are under 40, after that a faculty member moves into committee work and other admin for the university, as well as applying/managing grants, which again is basically a management job, not a technical job. It is perceived by management that what they do is more vital than tech work, so that kind of job is supposed to be sought. Anymore IT in a company is turning into project management.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless the technical area you are working on is core to the company ( basically a company in IT ) the career path always leads out of technical work .
This is just like they say the best researchers are under 40 , after that a faculty member moves into committee work and other admin for the university , as well as applying/managing grants , which again is basically a management job , not a technical job .
It is perceived by management that what they do is more vital than tech work , so that kind of job is supposed to be sought .
Anymore IT in a company is turning into project management .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless the technical area you are working on is core to the company (basically a company in IT) the career path always leads out of technical work.
This is just like they say the best researchers are under 40, after that a faculty member moves into committee work and other admin for the university, as well as applying/managing grants, which again is basically a management job, not a technical job.
It is perceived by management that what they do is more vital than tech work, so that kind of job is supposed to be sought.
Anymore IT in a company is turning into project management.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368868</id>
	<title>just passing by...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260303060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hi Timothy. It seems like your role is evolving [as it should] within the company. Usually, this is good news, but this is news of concern to you. What part about this 'promotion' bothers you the most? The work hours? Not being able to do tech work? Or the challenge of having to manage people/projects more actively than your current role? I think once you get through some introspection, you can better figure out what you want to do about it.</p><p>Personally, assuming this is really a promotion [and not someone's attempt to pin me to a dead end], and unless there was a burden to my family/kids in the new shift, I would embrace it and see where it takes me. It's not only an important and beneficial learning experience, but if you think of the long term, this is where you need to be.</p><p>Perhaps you are one of the few that are genuinely passionate about the work they do, and you eat/breathe every little project you work on. But if you're not, you can't stay technical lead forever. You'll need progression, and your company is offering you that chance to move forward. If you snuff this now, and you still keep your job, chances are that you wont get another chance unless you leave the company. Not only that, but this current company will likely not leave you a good reference as a candidate for more advanced roles that require more responsibility.</p><p>I've done work on both sides, and the managerial side can be difficult and challenging at times. It's different work, but at the same time, it's rewarding to be able to run a team that can accomplish many more things than i can on my own. But I guess to each his/her own, no? =)</p><p>That said... you're certainly entitled to refuse, but office politics make this a sticky issue right? To avoid it, go back to the aspects of the promotion that you don't like, and see what can be negotiated. You want to keep doing tech work? As your company to let you spend one day out of the week to keep your hands dirty in the projects. This can be beneficial to keep managers grounded in whats going on. You don't like the on-call hours? Perhaps instead of going into the office when being on-call, ask if you can work remotely. You may not get everything you want, but you can certainly negotiate and see what you can get to ease your transition.</p><p>At the end of the day, think of this as not only your opportunity, but also your company's opportunity to grow through you. They've entrusted you to take on extra responsibility, what will you do? Good luck Timothy!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hi Timothy .
It seems like your role is evolving [ as it should ] within the company .
Usually , this is good news , but this is news of concern to you .
What part about this 'promotion ' bothers you the most ?
The work hours ?
Not being able to do tech work ?
Or the challenge of having to manage people/projects more actively than your current role ?
I think once you get through some introspection , you can better figure out what you want to do about it.Personally , assuming this is really a promotion [ and not someone 's attempt to pin me to a dead end ] , and unless there was a burden to my family/kids in the new shift , I would embrace it and see where it takes me .
It 's not only an important and beneficial learning experience , but if you think of the long term , this is where you need to be.Perhaps you are one of the few that are genuinely passionate about the work they do , and you eat/breathe every little project you work on .
But if you 're not , you ca n't stay technical lead forever .
You 'll need progression , and your company is offering you that chance to move forward .
If you snuff this now , and you still keep your job , chances are that you wont get another chance unless you leave the company .
Not only that , but this current company will likely not leave you a good reference as a candidate for more advanced roles that require more responsibility.I 've done work on both sides , and the managerial side can be difficult and challenging at times .
It 's different work , but at the same time , it 's rewarding to be able to run a team that can accomplish many more things than i can on my own .
But I guess to each his/her own , no ?
= ) That said... you 're certainly entitled to refuse , but office politics make this a sticky issue right ?
To avoid it , go back to the aspects of the promotion that you do n't like , and see what can be negotiated .
You want to keep doing tech work ?
As your company to let you spend one day out of the week to keep your hands dirty in the projects .
This can be beneficial to keep managers grounded in whats going on .
You do n't like the on-call hours ?
Perhaps instead of going into the office when being on-call , ask if you can work remotely .
You may not get everything you want , but you can certainly negotiate and see what you can get to ease your transition.At the end of the day , think of this as not only your opportunity , but also your company 's opportunity to grow through you .
They 've entrusted you to take on extra responsibility , what will you do ?
Good luck Timothy !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hi Timothy.
It seems like your role is evolving [as it should] within the company.
Usually, this is good news, but this is news of concern to you.
What part about this 'promotion' bothers you the most?
The work hours?
Not being able to do tech work?
Or the challenge of having to manage people/projects more actively than your current role?
I think once you get through some introspection, you can better figure out what you want to do about it.Personally, assuming this is really a promotion [and not someone's attempt to pin me to a dead end], and unless there was a burden to my family/kids in the new shift, I would embrace it and see where it takes me.
It's not only an important and beneficial learning experience, but if you think of the long term, this is where you need to be.Perhaps you are one of the few that are genuinely passionate about the work they do, and you eat/breathe every little project you work on.
But if you're not, you can't stay technical lead forever.
You'll need progression, and your company is offering you that chance to move forward.
If you snuff this now, and you still keep your job, chances are that you wont get another chance unless you leave the company.
Not only that, but this current company will likely not leave you a good reference as a candidate for more advanced roles that require more responsibility.I've done work on both sides, and the managerial side can be difficult and challenging at times.
It's different work, but at the same time, it's rewarding to be able to run a team that can accomplish many more things than i can on my own.
But I guess to each his/her own, no?
=)That said... you're certainly entitled to refuse, but office politics make this a sticky issue right?
To avoid it, go back to the aspects of the promotion that you don't like, and see what can be negotiated.
You want to keep doing tech work?
As your company to let you spend one day out of the week to keep your hands dirty in the projects.
This can be beneficial to keep managers grounded in whats going on.
You don't like the on-call hours?
Perhaps instead of going into the office when being on-call, ask if you can work remotely.
You may not get everything you want, but you can certainly negotiate and see what you can get to ease your transition.At the end of the day, think of this as not only your opportunity, but also your company's opportunity to grow through you.
They've entrusted you to take on extra responsibility, what will you do?
Good luck Timothy!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30373490</id>
	<title>I went from Tech to Administrative</title>
	<author>gearloos</author>
	<datestamp>1260286140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I started as a service tech (degreed engineer however). Over the years advanced to engineer and technical lead then on to operations manager. I lasted 6 months as management. I am now an electrical engineer for another firm. I couldn't handle not being in the technical role.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I started as a service tech ( degreed engineer however ) .
Over the years advanced to engineer and technical lead then on to operations manager .
I lasted 6 months as management .
I am now an electrical engineer for another firm .
I could n't handle not being in the technical role .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started as a service tech (degreed engineer however).
Over the years advanced to engineer and technical lead then on to operations manager.
I lasted 6 months as management.
I am now an electrical engineer for another firm.
I couldn't handle not being in the technical role.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368822</id>
	<title>A good company knows this already</title>
	<author>mschuyler</author>
	<datestamp>1260302820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A good company knows this about techies and will plan accordingly. Some have 'Senior Tech' positions designed for people who do not care to enter the administrative side. I know of one company that treated their Field Engineers this way. The boss would say, "Are you interested in eventually moving into a management position, or are you committed to to the technology? I have training money to spend on you and I want to spend it the right way." Unfortunately, the FE in question told me, "I told him what he wanted to hear." That's too bad because I knew both guys, and I believe the senior regional manager was absolutely sincere in what he said.</p><p>Certainly the Peter Principal can apply (The solution, which is rarely mentioned, is "Creative Incompetence."), but I think it is easy to be short-sighted here. The question is not where you want to be in five years, but where you want to be at age 60 or so. If you can raise your family, pay for your kids' educations, and retire securely doing your tech thing, by all means go for it. But if you need to get better situated in order to do that, you'd better plan ahead.</p><p>My advice here (I'm 60 and retired securely) is to not blow off management just because you've got attitude and a PHB. Management can be a very fulfilling role. You're responsible, but you get to call the shots and point the direction. It's not going to happen unless you make it happen. It can get very political, but if you're as smart as you say you are, you ought to be able to make it work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A good company knows this about techies and will plan accordingly .
Some have 'Senior Tech ' positions designed for people who do not care to enter the administrative side .
I know of one company that treated their Field Engineers this way .
The boss would say , " Are you interested in eventually moving into a management position , or are you committed to to the technology ?
I have training money to spend on you and I want to spend it the right way .
" Unfortunately , the FE in question told me , " I told him what he wanted to hear .
" That 's too bad because I knew both guys , and I believe the senior regional manager was absolutely sincere in what he said.Certainly the Peter Principal can apply ( The solution , which is rarely mentioned , is " Creative Incompetence .
" ) , but I think it is easy to be short-sighted here .
The question is not where you want to be in five years , but where you want to be at age 60 or so .
If you can raise your family , pay for your kids ' educations , and retire securely doing your tech thing , by all means go for it .
But if you need to get better situated in order to do that , you 'd better plan ahead.My advice here ( I 'm 60 and retired securely ) is to not blow off management just because you 've got attitude and a PHB .
Management can be a very fulfilling role .
You 're responsible , but you get to call the shots and point the direction .
It 's not going to happen unless you make it happen .
It can get very political , but if you 're as smart as you say you are , you ought to be able to make it work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A good company knows this about techies and will plan accordingly.
Some have 'Senior Tech' positions designed for people who do not care to enter the administrative side.
I know of one company that treated their Field Engineers this way.
The boss would say, "Are you interested in eventually moving into a management position, or are you committed to to the technology?
I have training money to spend on you and I want to spend it the right way.
" Unfortunately, the FE in question told me, "I told him what he wanted to hear.
" That's too bad because I knew both guys, and I believe the senior regional manager was absolutely sincere in what he said.Certainly the Peter Principal can apply (The solution, which is rarely mentioned, is "Creative Incompetence.
"), but I think it is easy to be short-sighted here.
The question is not where you want to be in five years, but where you want to be at age 60 or so.
If you can raise your family, pay for your kids' educations, and retire securely doing your tech thing, by all means go for it.
But if you need to get better situated in order to do that, you'd better plan ahead.My advice here (I'm 60 and retired securely) is to not blow off management just because you've got attitude and a PHB.
Management can be a very fulfilling role.
You're responsible, but you get to call the shots and point the direction.
It's not going to happen unless you make it happen.
It can get very political, but if you're as smart as you say you are, you ought to be able to make it work.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30370124</id>
	<title>Different streams</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260265920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a Brit now working/living in the US, one of the cultural differences I encountered was that in the US, management is really considered a promotion/reward from an engineering position.</p><p>Don't get fooled by the image. You need to be aware that management is NOT a promotion, especially if it doesn't come with a pay rise. Its actually a profession change that requires a completely different skill set than what makes a good software developer. It makes no more sense to 'promote' an engineer into management than it does to 'promote' a plumber into banking. If you're popular at work by being a good engineer it may come as a real shock to realise that you're actually now only a mediocre manager.</p><p>The other wierdness that I found in the US is that apparently most recruiters think Engineers technical skills are only as good/relevant as your last job. Like they think you can ever forget C++ or whatever. This means that your decision about whether to accept a management role at your current company means you are actually making a fairly binding career choice. It may be a lot harder to get another hands-on job if you have no recent technical experience.</p><p>I guess it comes down to whether you chose to study engineering just as a step to moving into management, or whether (like most of us) you're acutally a geek who enjoys it for its own end.  As a self-test to determine whether you really want to be a manager, ask yourself if you'd rather be programming or working with Microsoft Project all day.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a Brit now working/living in the US , one of the cultural differences I encountered was that in the US , management is really considered a promotion/reward from an engineering position.Do n't get fooled by the image .
You need to be aware that management is NOT a promotion , especially if it does n't come with a pay rise .
Its actually a profession change that requires a completely different skill set than what makes a good software developer .
It makes no more sense to 'promote ' an engineer into management than it does to 'promote ' a plumber into banking .
If you 're popular at work by being a good engineer it may come as a real shock to realise that you 're actually now only a mediocre manager.The other wierdness that I found in the US is that apparently most recruiters think Engineers technical skills are only as good/relevant as your last job .
Like they think you can ever forget C + + or whatever .
This means that your decision about whether to accept a management role at your current company means you are actually making a fairly binding career choice .
It may be a lot harder to get another hands-on job if you have no recent technical experience.I guess it comes down to whether you chose to study engineering just as a step to moving into management , or whether ( like most of us ) you 're acutally a geek who enjoys it for its own end .
As a self-test to determine whether you really want to be a manager , ask yourself if you 'd rather be programming or working with Microsoft Project all day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a Brit now working/living in the US, one of the cultural differences I encountered was that in the US, management is really considered a promotion/reward from an engineering position.Don't get fooled by the image.
You need to be aware that management is NOT a promotion, especially if it doesn't come with a pay rise.
Its actually a profession change that requires a completely different skill set than what makes a good software developer.
It makes no more sense to 'promote' an engineer into management than it does to 'promote' a plumber into banking.
If you're popular at work by being a good engineer it may come as a real shock to realise that you're actually now only a mediocre manager.The other wierdness that I found in the US is that apparently most recruiters think Engineers technical skills are only as good/relevant as your last job.
Like they think you can ever forget C++ or whatever.
This means that your decision about whether to accept a management role at your current company means you are actually making a fairly binding career choice.
It may be a lot harder to get another hands-on job if you have no recent technical experience.I guess it comes down to whether you chose to study engineering just as a step to moving into management, or whether (like most of us) you're acutally a geek who enjoys it for its own end.
As a self-test to determine whether you really want to be a manager, ask yourself if you'd rather be programming or working with Microsoft Project all day.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30369376</id>
	<title>Time for the application of the Peter principle.</title>
	<author>gerddie</author>
	<datestamp>1260305340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter\_Principle" title="wikipedia.org">Get a good reading</a> [wikipedia.org] if you want to decline the promotion without declining it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Get a good reading [ wikipedia.org ] if you want to decline the promotion without declining it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get a good reading [wikipedia.org] if you want to decline the promotion without declining it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30368332</id>
	<title>My dad had something similar happen to him.</title>
	<author>BlueKitties</author>
	<datestamp>1260300960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My dad was a Tool Pusher for a drilling company, until one day he was offered a promotion to a desk job. He turned it down, and was "let go" in a matter of weeks. I'm not entirely sure why, but I imagine employers don't like it when people turn down promotions. I've had similar things happen to other friends as well.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My dad was a Tool Pusher for a drilling company , until one day he was offered a promotion to a desk job .
He turned it down , and was " let go " in a matter of weeks .
I 'm not entirely sure why , but I imagine employers do n't like it when people turn down promotions .
I 've had similar things happen to other friends as well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My dad was a Tool Pusher for a drilling company, until one day he was offered a promotion to a desk job.
He turned it down, and was "let go" in a matter of weeks.
I'm not entirely sure why, but I imagine employers don't like it when people turn down promotions.
I've had similar things happen to other friends as well.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_12_08_1759224.30370040</id>
	<title>long term vs short term</title>
	<author>novakom</author>
	<datestamp>1260265440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lots of responses here, probably many more intelligent than mine, so let me try to sum up.  Here are the things that matter in this equation:<br>1. Job Satisfaction (clearly you expect to have this decline if you take the job)<br>2. Job Security (clearly you expect to have this decline if you DON'T take the job)<br>3. Job Performance (it sounds like you expect this to decline if you take the job)<br>4. Money (given the economy, this may or may not change if you take the job)<br>5. Experience (clearly if you take a new job you'll get more job experience than if you tried to stay in the same role)</p><p>Lots of things to think about here.  Obviously, if job satisfaction is most important, then you know what to do.  However, if job security is the most important, then you again know what to do. Etc etc.  However, the point is this is a short-term view.  In order to make the right choice for yourself, you probably have to take the long-term view.</p><p>Is it worth it to take the management job and push paper for a few years, hopefully bridging you through the bad economy, getting you experience in management so that you are more hire-able later on, potentially leading to more money, a better job, and increased job satisfaction?  You could certainly make that argument.  But if you go that route you have to maintain the long-term view and keep in mind that you are essentially interning as management to increase prospects later on, keep yourself abreast of the latest technology on your own time, and most importantly, when later on becomes now, ACT on that.</p><p>You could also make the argument that if the technical role is extremely important to you, then you need to stick to it so that you don't unintentionally transition into a job you're going to hate.  I would argue that working a job you hate is only marginally better than not having a job at all.</p><p>I worked at a place that had 2 "tracks"-management and technical, and you picked one and advanced along that track.  That's the best of both worlds I suppose; it's worth being aware of that sort of arrangement when finding a job if job satisfaction is high on your list.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lots of responses here , probably many more intelligent than mine , so let me try to sum up .
Here are the things that matter in this equation : 1 .
Job Satisfaction ( clearly you expect to have this decline if you take the job ) 2 .
Job Security ( clearly you expect to have this decline if you DO N'T take the job ) 3 .
Job Performance ( it sounds like you expect this to decline if you take the job ) 4 .
Money ( given the economy , this may or may not change if you take the job ) 5 .
Experience ( clearly if you take a new job you 'll get more job experience than if you tried to stay in the same role ) Lots of things to think about here .
Obviously , if job satisfaction is most important , then you know what to do .
However , if job security is the most important , then you again know what to do .
Etc etc .
However , the point is this is a short-term view .
In order to make the right choice for yourself , you probably have to take the long-term view.Is it worth it to take the management job and push paper for a few years , hopefully bridging you through the bad economy , getting you experience in management so that you are more hire-able later on , potentially leading to more money , a better job , and increased job satisfaction ?
You could certainly make that argument .
But if you go that route you have to maintain the long-term view and keep in mind that you are essentially interning as management to increase prospects later on , keep yourself abreast of the latest technology on your own time , and most importantly , when later on becomes now , ACT on that.You could also make the argument that if the technical role is extremely important to you , then you need to stick to it so that you do n't unintentionally transition into a job you 're going to hate .
I would argue that working a job you hate is only marginally better than not having a job at all.I worked at a place that had 2 " tracks " -management and technical , and you picked one and advanced along that track .
That 's the best of both worlds I suppose ; it 's worth being aware of that sort of arrangement when finding a job if job satisfaction is high on your list .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lots of responses here, probably many more intelligent than mine, so let me try to sum up.
Here are the things that matter in this equation:1.
Job Satisfaction (clearly you expect to have this decline if you take the job)2.
Job Security (clearly you expect to have this decline if you DON'T take the job)3.
Job Performance (it sounds like you expect this to decline if you take the job)4.
Money (given the economy, this may or may not change if you take the job)5.
Experience (clearly if you take a new job you'll get more job experience than if you tried to stay in the same role)Lots of things to think about here.
Obviously, if job satisfaction is most important, then you know what to do.
However, if job security is the most important, then you again know what to do.
Etc etc.
However, the point is this is a short-term view.
In order to make the right choice for yourself, you probably have to take the long-term view.Is it worth it to take the management job and push paper for a few years, hopefully bridging you through the bad economy, getting you experience in management so that you are more hire-able later on, potentially leading to more money, a better job, and increased job satisfaction?
You could certainly make that argument.
But if you go that route you have to maintain the long-term view and keep in mind that you are essentially interning as management to increase prospects later on, keep yourself abreast of the latest technology on your own time, and most importantly, when later on becomes now, ACT on that.You could also make the argument that if the technical role is extremely important to you, then you need to stick to it so that you don't unintentionally transition into a job you're going to hate.
I would argue that working a job you hate is only marginally better than not having a job at all.I worked at a place that had 2 "tracks"-management and technical, and you picked one and advanced along that track.
That's the best of both worlds I suppose; it's worth being aware of that sort of arrangement when finding a job if job satisfaction is high on your list.</sentencetext>
</comment>
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