<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_11_30_1724255</id>
	<title>Should You Be Paid For Being On Call?</title>
	<author>ScuttleMonkey</author>
	<datestamp>1259609820000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>theodp writes <i>"Fortune's Dear Annie takes on the case of poor Dazed and Confused, an independent webmaster who's expected to be on call for his client at all hours of the day and night, but <a href="http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/25/news/economy/overtime.oncall.fortune/index.htm">doesn't get paid for being on call</a>, only for the 40 hours a week that he's in the office. Surprisingly, Annie throws cold water on the contractor's dreams of paid OT, citing these pearls of wisdom from an attorney who's apparently never had the 'privilege' of being a techie on call: 'Many companies see the on-call issue as analogous to a fire fighter's job. Most of the time, a fire fighter is off-duty but on call, hanging around the firehouse, cooking, sleeping, or whatever. What that person really gets paid for is the relatively small, but crucial, amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax. A webmaster, likewise, has slow times and busy times.'"</i>  What on call policies are you used to working with and how should it work in an ideal world?</htmltext>
<tokenext>theodp writes " Fortune 's Dear Annie takes on the case of poor Dazed and Confused , an independent webmaster who 's expected to be on call for his client at all hours of the day and night , but does n't get paid for being on call , only for the 40 hours a week that he 's in the office .
Surprisingly , Annie throws cold water on the contractor 's dreams of paid OT , citing these pearls of wisdom from an attorney who 's apparently never had the 'privilege ' of being a techie on call : 'Many companies see the on-call issue as analogous to a fire fighter 's job .
Most of the time , a fire fighter is off-duty but on call , hanging around the firehouse , cooking , sleeping , or whatever .
What that person really gets paid for is the relatively small , but crucial , amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax .
A webmaster , likewise , has slow times and busy times .
' " What on call policies are you used to working with and how should it work in an ideal world ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>theodp writes "Fortune's Dear Annie takes on the case of poor Dazed and Confused, an independent webmaster who's expected to be on call for his client at all hours of the day and night, but doesn't get paid for being on call, only for the 40 hours a week that he's in the office.
Surprisingly, Annie throws cold water on the contractor's dreams of paid OT, citing these pearls of wisdom from an attorney who's apparently never had the 'privilege' of being a techie on call: 'Many companies see the on-call issue as analogous to a fire fighter's job.
Most of the time, a fire fighter is off-duty but on call, hanging around the firehouse, cooking, sleeping, or whatever.
What that person really gets paid for is the relatively small, but crucial, amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax.
A webmaster, likewise, has slow times and busy times.
'"  What on call policies are you used to working with and how should it work in an ideal world?</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273392</id>
	<title>redirection</title>
	<author>gooman</author>
	<datestamp>1259614200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A quick remote login to redirect to a static "We are experiencing technical difficulties, please stand by" page. Then fix it on the next work day.</p><p>Or an agreement for comp-time or $xxx.xx for work outside of normal work hours.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A quick remote login to redirect to a static " We are experiencing technical difficulties , please stand by " page .
Then fix it on the next work day.Or an agreement for comp-time or $ xxx.xx for work outside of normal work hours .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A quick remote login to redirect to a static "We are experiencing technical difficulties, please stand by" page.
Then fix it on the next work day.Or an agreement for comp-time or $xxx.xx for work outside of normal work hours.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273800</id>
	<title>I got paid</title>
	<author>Xerfas</author>
	<datestamp>1259572200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I was on call for fixing nortel meridian and ericsson md110 phone switches remotely I got paid for having a cell phone on when I had it. So a customer could call at any hour and I would have 30 mins to get to work no matter where I was located so I could login to their systems and do what was needed. I was paid special overtime for this, which didn't pay as well as the normal 100\% extra hour salary. I think it was 20-30\% extra if nothing happened and 70ish\% extra if something happened. Phones has to work so I guess people tend to pay a bit more then for a website person on call, which is wrong considering some companies live off of their website.<br> <br>

A friend of mine had 100\% extra on his boss webservers, but that was because he had built it from scratch and was probably the only one who could fix any problems in the time his boss wanted it to be fixed.<br> <br>

In my opinion, this Annie should be paid atleast 50\% her normal salary when she is on call. This is something which should be in the contract with her employer. If the website is so important so she can't fix it in the morning, then it means it's also important enough to pay for on call service.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was on call for fixing nortel meridian and ericsson md110 phone switches remotely I got paid for having a cell phone on when I had it .
So a customer could call at any hour and I would have 30 mins to get to work no matter where I was located so I could login to their systems and do what was needed .
I was paid special overtime for this , which did n't pay as well as the normal 100 \ % extra hour salary .
I think it was 20-30 \ % extra if nothing happened and 70ish \ % extra if something happened .
Phones has to work so I guess people tend to pay a bit more then for a website person on call , which is wrong considering some companies live off of their website .
A friend of mine had 100 \ % extra on his boss webservers , but that was because he had built it from scratch and was probably the only one who could fix any problems in the time his boss wanted it to be fixed .
In my opinion , this Annie should be paid atleast 50 \ % her normal salary when she is on call .
This is something which should be in the contract with her employer .
If the website is so important so she ca n't fix it in the morning , then it means it 's also important enough to pay for on call service .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was on call for fixing nortel meridian and ericsson md110 phone switches remotely I got paid for having a cell phone on when I had it.
So a customer could call at any hour and I would have 30 mins to get to work no matter where I was located so I could login to their systems and do what was needed.
I was paid special overtime for this, which didn't pay as well as the normal 100\% extra hour salary.
I think it was 20-30\% extra if nothing happened and 70ish\% extra if something happened.
Phones has to work so I guess people tend to pay a bit more then for a website person on call, which is wrong considering some companies live off of their website.
A friend of mine had 100\% extra on his boss webservers, but that was because he had built it from scratch and was probably the only one who could fix any problems in the time his boss wanted it to be fixed.
In my opinion, this Annie should be paid atleast 50\% her normal salary when she is on call.
This is something which should be in the contract with her employer.
If the website is so important so she can't fix it in the morning, then it means it's also important enough to pay for on call service.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273774</id>
	<title>I can't be the only lawyer here...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259572140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work for a company, and I get paid a salary, like most other FTEs in the company as far as I know; no overtime, no extra payments, no matter how many hours extra per week, evenings and weekends included, trying to satisfy the demand for advice.</p><p>I trust my colleagues not to call me at 02:00 unless it's urgent - and if it is urgent enough to wake me up, then, it's probably urgent enough for me to give it some attention, in the same way that, if I were working abroad, or working into the early hours trying to help someone. Sometimes, especially in an international business, work cannot always be fitted between 08:30 and 17:15, or whatever "standard office hours" might be.</p><p>However, perhaps I'm fortunate that I have a job which I thoroughly enjoy, which allows me to make more headway with my interests in open source, keeping an eye on the state of copyright regulation, and many other things, than I'd be able to do on my own, and am fortunate to work in an environment which supports flexibility - if I'm working all night, I'm not likely to be in early the next morning, unless it's absolutely necessary for me to do so. The (rather regular) anti-social / late / long hours are one factor in an equation.</p><p>Lawyers are nothing special, even if some consider themselves to be, and, when a critical system goes down, someone in IT is likely to be far more "special" to you than I am. Unless you just want to be told to try turning it off and then on again...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work for a company , and I get paid a salary , like most other FTEs in the company as far as I know ; no overtime , no extra payments , no matter how many hours extra per week , evenings and weekends included , trying to satisfy the demand for advice.I trust my colleagues not to call me at 02 : 00 unless it 's urgent - and if it is urgent enough to wake me up , then , it 's probably urgent enough for me to give it some attention , in the same way that , if I were working abroad , or working into the early hours trying to help someone .
Sometimes , especially in an international business , work can not always be fitted between 08 : 30 and 17 : 15 , or whatever " standard office hours " might be.However , perhaps I 'm fortunate that I have a job which I thoroughly enjoy , which allows me to make more headway with my interests in open source , keeping an eye on the state of copyright regulation , and many other things , than I 'd be able to do on my own , and am fortunate to work in an environment which supports flexibility - if I 'm working all night , I 'm not likely to be in early the next morning , unless it 's absolutely necessary for me to do so .
The ( rather regular ) anti-social / late / long hours are one factor in an equation.Lawyers are nothing special , even if some consider themselves to be , and , when a critical system goes down , someone in IT is likely to be far more " special " to you than I am .
Unless you just want to be told to try turning it off and then on again.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work for a company, and I get paid a salary, like most other FTEs in the company as far as I know; no overtime, no extra payments, no matter how many hours extra per week, evenings and weekends included, trying to satisfy the demand for advice.I trust my colleagues not to call me at 02:00 unless it's urgent - and if it is urgent enough to wake me up, then, it's probably urgent enough for me to give it some attention, in the same way that, if I were working abroad, or working into the early hours trying to help someone.
Sometimes, especially in an international business, work cannot always be fitted between 08:30 and 17:15, or whatever "standard office hours" might be.However, perhaps I'm fortunate that I have a job which I thoroughly enjoy, which allows me to make more headway with my interests in open source, keeping an eye on the state of copyright regulation, and many other things, than I'd be able to do on my own, and am fortunate to work in an environment which supports flexibility - if I'm working all night, I'm not likely to be in early the next morning, unless it's absolutely necessary for me to do so.
The (rather regular) anti-social / late / long hours are one factor in an equation.Lawyers are nothing special, even if some consider themselves to be, and, when a critical system goes down, someone in IT is likely to be far more "special" to you than I am.
Unless you just want to be told to try turning it off and then on again...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30293022</id>
	<title>Yes, absolutely, without question!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259684340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is NO justification for uncompensated -- i.e. free -- labor.  Especially when one is working for a for-profit enterprise.</p><p>I support outlawing all non-rate-based employment, including salaried employment.  All work should be paid on the basis of a rate: dollars/hour, dollars/project, or some other rate.</p><p>A flat 40 hours/week with no OT compensation and no cost to the employer to work the employee longer than that is fucking criminal... and only a communist -- one who believes in the free labor for the benefit of a larger collective (like a corporation?) -- would support it.</p><p>Yet, we have quite a few commies running businesses.  Funny thing, that...</p><p>IT people have for far too long been working too many free hours.  And for what?  The opportunity to work more?  Why?  That's the most irrational thing we can do...<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...except we do it, quite rationally, out of individual self-interest because we know that the pressure of competition means if we complain about it or leave, some other poor sucker will take our place (the squeaky wheel gets replaced) -- and our next job will simply be a repeat of the previous one, with similar responsibilities.</p><p>The only escape is a non-IT job.</p><p>Seriously, it's time we stood-up for *sane*, sensible labor regulations in America.  You'd think a leftie like Obama would push this, but no...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is NO justification for uncompensated -- i.e .
free -- labor .
Especially when one is working for a for-profit enterprise.I support outlawing all non-rate-based employment , including salaried employment .
All work should be paid on the basis of a rate : dollars/hour , dollars/project , or some other rate.A flat 40 hours/week with no OT compensation and no cost to the employer to work the employee longer than that is fucking criminal... and only a communist -- one who believes in the free labor for the benefit of a larger collective ( like a corporation ?
) -- would support it.Yet , we have quite a few commies running businesses .
Funny thing , that...IT people have for far too long been working too many free hours .
And for what ?
The opportunity to work more ?
Why ? That 's the most irrational thing we can do... ...except we do it , quite rationally , out of individual self-interest because we know that the pressure of competition means if we complain about it or leave , some other poor sucker will take our place ( the squeaky wheel gets replaced ) -- and our next job will simply be a repeat of the previous one , with similar responsibilities.The only escape is a non-IT job.Seriously , it 's time we stood-up for * sane * , sensible labor regulations in America .
You 'd think a leftie like Obama would push this , but no.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is NO justification for uncompensated -- i.e.
free -- labor.
Especially when one is working for a for-profit enterprise.I support outlawing all non-rate-based employment, including salaried employment.
All work should be paid on the basis of a rate: dollars/hour, dollars/project, or some other rate.A flat 40 hours/week with no OT compensation and no cost to the employer to work the employee longer than that is fucking criminal... and only a communist -- one who believes in the free labor for the benefit of a larger collective (like a corporation?
) -- would support it.Yet, we have quite a few commies running businesses.
Funny thing, that...IT people have for far too long been working too many free hours.
And for what?
The opportunity to work more?
Why?  That's the most irrational thing we can do... ...except we do it, quite rationally, out of individual self-interest because we know that the pressure of competition means if we complain about it or leave, some other poor sucker will take our place (the squeaky wheel gets replaced) -- and our next job will simply be a repeat of the previous one, with similar responsibilities.The only escape is a non-IT job.Seriously, it's time we stood-up for *sane*, sensible labor regulations in America.
You'd think a leftie like Obama would push this, but no...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274022</id>
	<title>Here in Italy....</title>
	<author>dzkkuro</author>
	<datestamp>1259572980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Here in Italy, in a good 80\% of IT jobs there's no compensation for being on call, since we're all friends. Big friends, especially when the caller has a mobile sponsored from the company and the called has just his own personal one.

For example, it's no matter if they call you and when you tell them "listen, pal, there's a doctor here that's explaining me the real name of the cancer killing my mother" you get answers like "ok, but the X thing is not working, we need it asap".

We're all friends.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here in Italy , in a good 80 \ % of IT jobs there 's no compensation for being on call , since we 're all friends .
Big friends , especially when the caller has a mobile sponsored from the company and the called has just his own personal one .
For example , it 's no matter if they call you and when you tell them " listen , pal , there 's a doctor here that 's explaining me the real name of the cancer killing my mother " you get answers like " ok , but the X thing is not working , we need it asap " .
We 're all friends .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here in Italy, in a good 80\% of IT jobs there's no compensation for being on call, since we're all friends.
Big friends, especially when the caller has a mobile sponsored from the company and the called has just his own personal one.
For example, it's no matter if they call you and when you tell them "listen, pal, there's a doctor here that's explaining me the real name of the cancer killing my mother" you get answers like "ok, but the X thing is not working, we need it asap".
We're all friends.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30279252</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259601540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Especially if it's the internet surfing that's down.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Especially if it 's the internet surfing that 's down .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Especially if it's the internet surfing that's down.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273716</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273406</id>
	<title>Salary</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259614200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Putting IT employees on salary is considered THE WAY to get around paying for on-call hours.</p><p>Personally, I expect some time away from the job. I don't answer my work cell phone, including emails, before 8am or after 6pm. I do listen to voicemail and monitor the email for a true emergency, but if it is not my definition of an emergency it can wait until Monday at 8am. If I get fired, so be it. I can find another job. I don't live to work, I work to live.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Putting IT employees on salary is considered THE WAY to get around paying for on-call hours.Personally , I expect some time away from the job .
I do n't answer my work cell phone , including emails , before 8am or after 6pm .
I do listen to voicemail and monitor the email for a true emergency , but if it is not my definition of an emergency it can wait until Monday at 8am .
If I get fired , so be it .
I can find another job .
I do n't live to work , I work to live .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Putting IT employees on salary is considered THE WAY to get around paying for on-call hours.Personally, I expect some time away from the job.
I don't answer my work cell phone, including emails, before 8am or after 6pm.
I do listen to voicemail and monitor the email for a true emergency, but if it is not my definition of an emergency it can wait until Monday at 8am.
If I get fired, so be it.
I can find another job.
I don't live to work, I work to live.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30277736</id>
	<title>I've been paid for it</title>
	<author>SteelRat</author>
	<datestamp>1259588460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a consultant, I was paid quite a lot for being available for an on-call basis; several thousand a month.</p><p>I also didn't have to do much when things happened.  I would join a call, establish that it was not my problem, and then drop off.</p><p>If you're deeply concerned for your jobs, get better at your jobs and leave your bad gigs.  Retention and performance problems should correct this problem of thinking that management assholes can get people to work for free.  They would never work for without compensation.  Why should people who are smarter than them?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a consultant , I was paid quite a lot for being available for an on-call basis ; several thousand a month.I also did n't have to do much when things happened .
I would join a call , establish that it was not my problem , and then drop off.If you 're deeply concerned for your jobs , get better at your jobs and leave your bad gigs .
Retention and performance problems should correct this problem of thinking that management assholes can get people to work for free .
They would never work for without compensation .
Why should people who are smarter than them ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a consultant, I was paid quite a lot for being available for an on-call basis; several thousand a month.I also didn't have to do much when things happened.
I would join a call, establish that it was not my problem, and then drop off.If you're deeply concerned for your jobs, get better at your jobs and leave your bad gigs.
Retention and performance problems should correct this problem of thinking that management assholes can get people to work for free.
They would never work for without compensation.
Why should people who are smarter than them?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273922</id>
	<title>Re:Firefighting</title>
	<author>Jeff DeMaagd</author>
	<datestamp>1259572620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It might depend on where they are employed.  I doubt that the working arrangement for firefighters in NYC is the same as for LA, Denver or some small town in middle America.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It might depend on where they are employed .
I doubt that the working arrangement for firefighters in NYC is the same as for LA , Denver or some small town in middle America .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It might depend on where they are employed.
I doubt that the working arrangement for firefighters in NYC is the same as for LA, Denver or some small town in middle America.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273322</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274796</id>
	<title>I call BS</title>
	<author>schlick</author>
	<datestamp>1259575980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What that person really gets paid for is the relatively small, but crucial, amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax.</p></div><p>This is flat out wrong.  It isn't the small amount of time doing the job a fire fighter is paid for.  It is BEING READY to do that job WHEN it is NEEDED.</p><p>Being on call when salaried is one thing.  What happens when you call a plumber in the middle of the night?  You pay more.  No difference.  If you are an independent contractor, you need to set your own rate.  Being INDEPENDENT affords you the opportunity to structure that rate as you deem appropriate taking into account this ompetitive market.  There is no law that says contractors can't charge different rates for different times of the day.</p><p>It's like that old joke about the engineer fixing the big machine by tapping it with a hammer*.   Sometimes the CONTEXT of the work is just as important, and sometimes even more important than the actual work itself.</p><p>*There was an engineer who had an exceptional gift for fixing all things mechanical. After serving his company loyally for over 30 years, he happily retired. Several years later the company contacted him regarding a seemingly impossible problem they were having with one of their multimillion-dollar machines. It shook and vibrated violently every time they started the machine. They had tried everything and everyone else to get the machine to work but to no avail. In desperation, they called on the retired engineer who had solved so many of their problems in the past. The engineer reluctantly took the challenge. He spent a day studying the huge machine. At the end of the day, he marked a small "x" in chalk on a particular spot on the side component of the machine, took a sledge hammer and hit the spot a smashing blow. Instantly, the machine quit vibrating and ran smooth as silk.</p><p>The company received a bill for $50,000 from the engineer for his service.</p><p>They wrote him a letter saying that $50,000 for hitting the machine was outrageous as any fool could have done that. They demanded an explanation.</p><p>The engineer responded with a new bill stating:<br>One sledge hammer blow to machinery - $1.00<br>Knowing where to hit machinery - $49,999.00</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What that person really gets paid for is the relatively small , but crucial , amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax.This is flat out wrong .
It is n't the small amount of time doing the job a fire fighter is paid for .
It is BEING READY to do that job WHEN it is NEEDED.Being on call when salaried is one thing .
What happens when you call a plumber in the middle of the night ?
You pay more .
No difference .
If you are an independent contractor , you need to set your own rate .
Being INDEPENDENT affords you the opportunity to structure that rate as you deem appropriate taking into account this ompetitive market .
There is no law that says contractors ca n't charge different rates for different times of the day.It 's like that old joke about the engineer fixing the big machine by tapping it with a hammer * .
Sometimes the CONTEXT of the work is just as important , and sometimes even more important than the actual work itself .
* There was an engineer who had an exceptional gift for fixing all things mechanical .
After serving his company loyally for over 30 years , he happily retired .
Several years later the company contacted him regarding a seemingly impossible problem they were having with one of their multimillion-dollar machines .
It shook and vibrated violently every time they started the machine .
They had tried everything and everyone else to get the machine to work but to no avail .
In desperation , they called on the retired engineer who had solved so many of their problems in the past .
The engineer reluctantly took the challenge .
He spent a day studying the huge machine .
At the end of the day , he marked a small " x " in chalk on a particular spot on the side component of the machine , took a sledge hammer and hit the spot a smashing blow .
Instantly , the machine quit vibrating and ran smooth as silk.The company received a bill for $ 50,000 from the engineer for his service.They wrote him a letter saying that $ 50,000 for hitting the machine was outrageous as any fool could have done that .
They demanded an explanation.The engineer responded with a new bill stating : One sledge hammer blow to machinery - $ 1.00Knowing where to hit machinery - $ 49,999.00</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What that person really gets paid for is the relatively small, but crucial, amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax.This is flat out wrong.
It isn't the small amount of time doing the job a fire fighter is paid for.
It is BEING READY to do that job WHEN it is NEEDED.Being on call when salaried is one thing.
What happens when you call a plumber in the middle of the night?
You pay more.
No difference.
If you are an independent contractor, you need to set your own rate.
Being INDEPENDENT affords you the opportunity to structure that rate as you deem appropriate taking into account this ompetitive market.
There is no law that says contractors can't charge different rates for different times of the day.It's like that old joke about the engineer fixing the big machine by tapping it with a hammer*.
Sometimes the CONTEXT of the work is just as important, and sometimes even more important than the actual work itself.
*There was an engineer who had an exceptional gift for fixing all things mechanical.
After serving his company loyally for over 30 years, he happily retired.
Several years later the company contacted him regarding a seemingly impossible problem they were having with one of their multimillion-dollar machines.
It shook and vibrated violently every time they started the machine.
They had tried everything and everyone else to get the machine to work but to no avail.
In desperation, they called on the retired engineer who had solved so many of their problems in the past.
The engineer reluctantly took the challenge.
He spent a day studying the huge machine.
At the end of the day, he marked a small "x" in chalk on a particular spot on the side component of the machine, took a sledge hammer and hit the spot a smashing blow.
Instantly, the machine quit vibrating and ran smooth as silk.The company received a bill for $50,000 from the engineer for his service.They wrote him a letter saying that $50,000 for hitting the machine was outrageous as any fool could have done that.
They demanded an explanation.The engineer responded with a new bill stating:One sledge hammer blow to machinery - $1.00Knowing where to hit machinery - $49,999.00
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30282728</id>
	<title>Re:He's not really "on call"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259680560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My plumber doesn't come into the office for 40 hours a week.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My plumber does n't come into the office for 40 hours a week .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My plumber doesn't come into the office for 40 hours a week.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274472</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>karcirate</author>
	<datestamp>1259574660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>
3. Usually if she gets called in, someone is dying.  I would rarely, if ever, classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that.</p></div><p>I hope it doesn't surprise you that many banks and financial institutions would classify certain common IT emergencies as much more important than someone dying.  Take a "small" glitch that costs $100 million.  Ask them to (unofficially) compare that to a human life? Not even close.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>3 .
Usually if she gets called in , someone is dying .
I would rarely , if ever , classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that.I hope it does n't surprise you that many banks and financial institutions would classify certain common IT emergencies as much more important than someone dying .
Take a " small " glitch that costs $ 100 million .
Ask them to ( unofficially ) compare that to a human life ?
Not even close .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
3.
Usually if she gets called in, someone is dying.
I would rarely, if ever, classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that.I hope it doesn't surprise you that many banks and financial institutions would classify certain common IT emergencies as much more important than someone dying.
Take a "small" glitch that costs $100 million.
Ask them to (unofficially) compare that to a human life?
Not even close.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273860</id>
	<title>I had it the best...and worst</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259572380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A very long time ago--between ages 18 and 20--I was the assistant manager for my university's computer lab system. I was paid for 30 hours of work per week and given free pager batteries, and in exchange, I worked 8 hours per week in scheduled shifts at computer lab front desks, and the remaining 22 hours were on-call:</p><p>- Taking care of labs that ran out of paper and toner. Clearing paper jams the lab workers couldn't figure out. Cleaning printers that had "toner explosions".<br>- Opening and closing labs if the workers there didn't have the proper lock/alarm credentials.<br>- Covering sick workers, and lunch breaks if someone was working alone in the lab.<br>- In one case, staying in the lab with a female worker until midnight after an irate user made her feel uncomfortable.</p><p>In a typical week, I'd work anywhere between 12 and 28 hours, averaging 20, so I essentially got paid a 10-hour/wk bonus for being on call--and getting called on an almost-daily basis. I used my personal pager since I told the boss I'd rather not carry a personal and work pager, and we had a simple agreement:</p><p>- As a student-employee, I was a student first, then an employee. I gave the boss my class schedule, and she told me to never skip class for work.<br>- Notify her if I left town, even for a weekend getaway. She would know not to expect me to be on call, and would reduce my pay accordingly--I was pure hourly with no paid leave.</p><p>Four years, one BS, one MS, and one wife later, and I was all grown up with a real job as the sysadmin for a high school. In exchange for absolutely nothing, I was unofficially expected to be on call. Teachers would, one way or another, get a hold of my personal cell phone number and expect me to answer their problems with their home computers. In one famous case, a teacher demanded to know why I didn't answer her phone call, and I told her "I don't answer my home phone". When she asked me how the principal calls me at home, I said "He doesn't!". I would also get called at all hours of the day or night by our burglar alarm monitoring station, since teachers didn't understand the concept of disarming.</p><p>I have since left that job, and I'm at a workplace that won't consider me on-call unless they need me to be, at which point I'll get a BlackBerry, a contract, a rotation list, and proper compensation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A very long time ago--between ages 18 and 20--I was the assistant manager for my university 's computer lab system .
I was paid for 30 hours of work per week and given free pager batteries , and in exchange , I worked 8 hours per week in scheduled shifts at computer lab front desks , and the remaining 22 hours were on-call : - Taking care of labs that ran out of paper and toner .
Clearing paper jams the lab workers could n't figure out .
Cleaning printers that had " toner explosions " .- Opening and closing labs if the workers there did n't have the proper lock/alarm credentials.- Covering sick workers , and lunch breaks if someone was working alone in the lab.- In one case , staying in the lab with a female worker until midnight after an irate user made her feel uncomfortable.In a typical week , I 'd work anywhere between 12 and 28 hours , averaging 20 , so I essentially got paid a 10-hour/wk bonus for being on call--and getting called on an almost-daily basis .
I used my personal pager since I told the boss I 'd rather not carry a personal and work pager , and we had a simple agreement : - As a student-employee , I was a student first , then an employee .
I gave the boss my class schedule , and she told me to never skip class for work.- Notify her if I left town , even for a weekend getaway .
She would know not to expect me to be on call , and would reduce my pay accordingly--I was pure hourly with no paid leave.Four years , one BS , one MS , and one wife later , and I was all grown up with a real job as the sysadmin for a high school .
In exchange for absolutely nothing , I was unofficially expected to be on call .
Teachers would , one way or another , get a hold of my personal cell phone number and expect me to answer their problems with their home computers .
In one famous case , a teacher demanded to know why I did n't answer her phone call , and I told her " I do n't answer my home phone " .
When she asked me how the principal calls me at home , I said " He does n't ! " .
I would also get called at all hours of the day or night by our burglar alarm monitoring station , since teachers did n't understand the concept of disarming.I have since left that job , and I 'm at a workplace that wo n't consider me on-call unless they need me to be , at which point I 'll get a BlackBerry , a contract , a rotation list , and proper compensation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A very long time ago--between ages 18 and 20--I was the assistant manager for my university's computer lab system.
I was paid for 30 hours of work per week and given free pager batteries, and in exchange, I worked 8 hours per week in scheduled shifts at computer lab front desks, and the remaining 22 hours were on-call:- Taking care of labs that ran out of paper and toner.
Clearing paper jams the lab workers couldn't figure out.
Cleaning printers that had "toner explosions".- Opening and closing labs if the workers there didn't have the proper lock/alarm credentials.- Covering sick workers, and lunch breaks if someone was working alone in the lab.- In one case, staying in the lab with a female worker until midnight after an irate user made her feel uncomfortable.In a typical week, I'd work anywhere between 12 and 28 hours, averaging 20, so I essentially got paid a 10-hour/wk bonus for being on call--and getting called on an almost-daily basis.
I used my personal pager since I told the boss I'd rather not carry a personal and work pager, and we had a simple agreement:- As a student-employee, I was a student first, then an employee.
I gave the boss my class schedule, and she told me to never skip class for work.- Notify her if I left town, even for a weekend getaway.
She would know not to expect me to be on call, and would reduce my pay accordingly--I was pure hourly with no paid leave.Four years, one BS, one MS, and one wife later, and I was all grown up with a real job as the sysadmin for a high school.
In exchange for absolutely nothing, I was unofficially expected to be on call.
Teachers would, one way or another, get a hold of my personal cell phone number and expect me to answer their problems with their home computers.
In one famous case, a teacher demanded to know why I didn't answer her phone call, and I told her "I don't answer my home phone".
When she asked me how the principal calls me at home, I said "He doesn't!".
I would also get called at all hours of the day or night by our burglar alarm monitoring station, since teachers didn't understand the concept of disarming.I have since left that job, and I'm at a workplace that won't consider me on-call unless they need me to be, at which point I'll get a BlackBerry, a contract, a rotation list, and proper compensation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273582</id>
	<title>The Attorney has it wrong</title>
	<author>headhot</author>
	<datestamp>1259614740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A fireman has slow times and busy times, he is not working 9-5 and then on call, he's just on call.</p><p>A web master has an 8 hour a day busy time, and then an on call time. Every job that I have worked in the tech sector or have had working people for me who were not salaried had on call pay.</p><p>They had a bonus for just being on call, and then where paid when they were actual called with some kind of minimum, even if the call took 5 minutes the pay was for 2 hours.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A fireman has slow times and busy times , he is not working 9-5 and then on call , he 's just on call.A web master has an 8 hour a day busy time , and then an on call time .
Every job that I have worked in the tech sector or have had working people for me who were not salaried had on call pay.They had a bonus for just being on call , and then where paid when they were actual called with some kind of minimum , even if the call took 5 minutes the pay was for 2 hours .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A fireman has slow times and busy times, he is not working 9-5 and then on call, he's just on call.A web master has an 8 hour a day busy time, and then an on call time.
Every job that I have worked in the tech sector or have had working people for me who were not salaried had on call pay.They had a bonus for just being on call, and then where paid when they were actual called with some kind of minimum, even if the call took 5 minutes the pay was for 2 hours.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273528</id>
	<title>Already on call</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259614560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're not already being paid for being on call?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're not already being paid for being on call ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're not already being paid for being on call?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273960</id>
	<title>The Salary Does not go up when you are on call</title>
	<author>Stregano</author>
	<datestamp>1259572800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am a programmer analyst at my job and have to be on call.  It is in a rotation.  I do not get paid extra for it.  In fact, I am the lowest paid person on my team.

That would be awesome if I got paid extra or got paid the "big bucks" like some of you think, but it does not happen.

When I say on call, I mean I have to walk around with a Blackberry by my side that is issued by my company.

I want to know what companies you guys work for, because my salary definately does not reflect the fact that I am on call.  In fact, when we started going on call on my team, my pay stayed the same.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am a programmer analyst at my job and have to be on call .
It is in a rotation .
I do not get paid extra for it .
In fact , I am the lowest paid person on my team .
That would be awesome if I got paid extra or got paid the " big bucks " like some of you think , but it does not happen .
When I say on call , I mean I have to walk around with a Blackberry by my side that is issued by my company .
I want to know what companies you guys work for , because my salary definately does not reflect the fact that I am on call .
In fact , when we started going on call on my team , my pay stayed the same .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am a programmer analyst at my job and have to be on call.
It is in a rotation.
I do not get paid extra for it.
In fact, I am the lowest paid person on my team.
That would be awesome if I got paid extra or got paid the "big bucks" like some of you think, but it does not happen.
When I say on call, I mean I have to walk around with a Blackberry by my side that is issued by my company.
I want to know what companies you guys work for, because my salary definately does not reflect the fact that I am on call.
In fact, when we started going on call on my team, my pay stayed the same.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30277354</id>
	<title>Your Job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259586120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are paid for doing your job. If your job as an engineer on a project including a website says you must be on call part of the time, then you must be on call part of the time. If you don't think the pay per unit of work is acceptable, work it out with your boss or leave for another job. It's simple. If you just want less work and the same pay, then that's just now how the world works.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are paid for doing your job .
If your job as an engineer on a project including a website says you must be on call part of the time , then you must be on call part of the time .
If you do n't think the pay per unit of work is acceptable , work it out with your boss or leave for another job .
It 's simple .
If you just want less work and the same pay , then that 's just now how the world works .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are paid for doing your job.
If your job as an engineer on a project including a website says you must be on call part of the time, then you must be on call part of the time.
If you don't think the pay per unit of work is acceptable, work it out with your boss or leave for another job.
It's simple.
If you just want less work and the same pay, then that's just now how the world works.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273876</id>
	<title>Re:Personally I believe it depends upon if you're.</title>
	<author>Zocalo</author>
	<datestamp>1259572440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Whether it's a salaried or hourly wage shouldn't make a whole lot of difference.  I've had both types of role, and in all cases there has always been an incentive or some kind of additional remuneration to do the on-call work over equivalent grades in departments that didn't have to do it.  That would either be a fixed allowance for the on-call time, a disturbance allowance per call, overtime, or some combination of the three.  Then again, I do work in the EU where thanks to the French we are a little more blessed in our labour laws than those unfortunates in the US seem to be.<br> <br>

The best employer's position I had on this went so far as pay you per hour to be on call (0.5x base wage), a disturbance allowance (1.5 hours wage per issue) and overtime (1.5x base wage, or 2x at weekends/public holidays) while you were working on a call, with wages pro-rated for those of us on salaried pay.  That was one sweet deal; if you got a whole bunch of quick-fix issues during your week on the rota, then you could quite easily clear a couple of week's pay for just a few hours of actual work.  In return, the company had one of the most motivated and loyal IT teams I've ever worked with, but unfortunately almost zero prospects for internal promotion...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Whether it 's a salaried or hourly wage should n't make a whole lot of difference .
I 've had both types of role , and in all cases there has always been an incentive or some kind of additional remuneration to do the on-call work over equivalent grades in departments that did n't have to do it .
That would either be a fixed allowance for the on-call time , a disturbance allowance per call , overtime , or some combination of the three .
Then again , I do work in the EU where thanks to the French we are a little more blessed in our labour laws than those unfortunates in the US seem to be .
The best employer 's position I had on this went so far as pay you per hour to be on call ( 0.5x base wage ) , a disturbance allowance ( 1.5 hours wage per issue ) and overtime ( 1.5x base wage , or 2x at weekends/public holidays ) while you were working on a call , with wages pro-rated for those of us on salaried pay .
That was one sweet deal ; if you got a whole bunch of quick-fix issues during your week on the rota , then you could quite easily clear a couple of week 's pay for just a few hours of actual work .
In return , the company had one of the most motivated and loyal IT teams I 've ever worked with , but unfortunately almost zero prospects for internal promotion.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Whether it's a salaried or hourly wage shouldn't make a whole lot of difference.
I've had both types of role, and in all cases there has always been an incentive or some kind of additional remuneration to do the on-call work over equivalent grades in departments that didn't have to do it.
That would either be a fixed allowance for the on-call time, a disturbance allowance per call, overtime, or some combination of the three.
Then again, I do work in the EU where thanks to the French we are a little more blessed in our labour laws than those unfortunates in the US seem to be.
The best employer's position I had on this went so far as pay you per hour to be on call (0.5x base wage), a disturbance allowance (1.5 hours wage per issue) and overtime (1.5x base wage, or 2x at weekends/public holidays) while you were working on a call, with wages pro-rated for those of us on salaried pay.
That was one sweet deal; if you got a whole bunch of quick-fix issues during your week on the rota, then you could quite easily clear a couple of week's pay for just a few hours of actual work.
In return, the company had one of the most motivated and loyal IT teams I've ever worked with, but unfortunately almost zero prospects for internal promotion...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273272</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274464</id>
	<title>Details to be worked out in advance</title>
	<author>erroneus</author>
	<datestamp>1259574600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>These are details that should be worked out in advance of any agreement in place.  If the agreement did not touch on this aspect then the topic is up for negotiation.  If there is mention of being on-call or otherwise being responsible for a certain level of responsiveness during any or other specified times without any specific compensation plan, then you may be screwed.</p><p>A mature or experienced business person would know to have these details worked out in advance.</p><p>Should someone be paid to make themselves available to deliver a specified quality of service?  Yes.  If you are paid by the hour, then there should be some sort of component structure built into the agreement somewhere.</p><p>Bottom line?  If I have to wear a tuxedo to bed because I may be called to a formal party, then someone is going to pay for it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>These are details that should be worked out in advance of any agreement in place .
If the agreement did not touch on this aspect then the topic is up for negotiation .
If there is mention of being on-call or otherwise being responsible for a certain level of responsiveness during any or other specified times without any specific compensation plan , then you may be screwed.A mature or experienced business person would know to have these details worked out in advance.Should someone be paid to make themselves available to deliver a specified quality of service ?
Yes. If you are paid by the hour , then there should be some sort of component structure built into the agreement somewhere.Bottom line ?
If I have to wear a tuxedo to bed because I may be called to a formal party , then someone is going to pay for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These are details that should be worked out in advance of any agreement in place.
If the agreement did not touch on this aspect then the topic is up for negotiation.
If there is mention of being on-call or otherwise being responsible for a certain level of responsiveness during any or other specified times without any specific compensation plan, then you may be screwed.A mature or experienced business person would know to have these details worked out in advance.Should someone be paid to make themselves available to deliver a specified quality of service?
Yes.  If you are paid by the hour, then there should be some sort of component structure built into the agreement somewhere.Bottom line?
If I have to wear a tuxedo to bed because I may be called to a formal party, then someone is going to pay for it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274678</id>
	<title>Convert to Hourly</title>
	<author>James McP</author>
	<datestamp>1259575440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do you have direct reports, are you allowed to make independent judgments important to the business, do you have an advanced degree, or are you a producer of creative works?</p><p>If the answer to all the above is "no" then you probably shouldn't be an exempt employee, meaning you would be eligible for overtime which would offset any on-call demands.</p><p>There are lawsuits on if programmers are "creative" types (EA &amp; IBM settled I think, so I'm not sure if the government has weighed in officially) but if a "webmaster" role doesn't produce content but is more involved in server maintenance, that should neatly get past that threshold.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do you have direct reports , are you allowed to make independent judgments important to the business , do you have an advanced degree , or are you a producer of creative works ? If the answer to all the above is " no " then you probably should n't be an exempt employee , meaning you would be eligible for overtime which would offset any on-call demands.There are lawsuits on if programmers are " creative " types ( EA &amp; IBM settled I think , so I 'm not sure if the government has weighed in officially ) but if a " webmaster " role does n't produce content but is more involved in server maintenance , that should neatly get past that threshold .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do you have direct reports, are you allowed to make independent judgments important to the business, do you have an advanced degree, or are you a producer of creative works?If the answer to all the above is "no" then you probably shouldn't be an exempt employee, meaning you would be eligible for overtime which would offset any on-call demands.There are lawsuits on if programmers are "creative" types (EA &amp; IBM settled I think, so I'm not sure if the government has weighed in officially) but if a "webmaster" role doesn't produce content but is more involved in server maintenance, that should neatly get past that threshold.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276948</id>
	<title>A Pager how quaint Re:Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>mjwalshe</author>
	<datestamp>1259584140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You mean they still have Pagers in the USA wow you will be teling me next that att&amp;t has TO's doing bank cleaning next<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</htmltext>
<tokenext>You mean they still have Pagers in the USA wow you will be teling me next that att&amp;t has TO 's doing bank cleaning next : - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You mean they still have Pagers in the USA wow you will be teling me next that att&amp;t has TO's doing bank cleaning next :-)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274334</id>
	<title>Re:The point is that your time is not your own</title>
	<author>iamacat</author>
	<datestamp>1259574060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The problem is that, when you're "on call", your time is not your own. You're expected to be ready and able to drop everything at a moments notice and go to work, immediately.</p></div><p>Very few employees will fire or seriously penalize you for an occasional delayed response. Grumbling from your manager doesn't count -  you shouldn't allow your personal life to be destroyed just because someone thinks it's convenient. Just go ahead and set the phone to silent during sex/movies/meals/etc and check it afterwards. Chances are, nobody will call in that short time. If they do, just say "sorry, I just noticed this call now". If you answer in 90\% of cases, there shouldn't be any problem. If you are always unavailable during off hours, you need to look for jobs accordingly.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is that , when you 're " on call " , your time is not your own .
You 're expected to be ready and able to drop everything at a moments notice and go to work , immediately.Very few employees will fire or seriously penalize you for an occasional delayed response .
Grumbling from your manager does n't count - you should n't allow your personal life to be destroyed just because someone thinks it 's convenient .
Just go ahead and set the phone to silent during sex/movies/meals/etc and check it afterwards .
Chances are , nobody will call in that short time .
If they do , just say " sorry , I just noticed this call now " .
If you answer in 90 \ % of cases , there should n't be any problem .
If you are always unavailable during off hours , you need to look for jobs accordingly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is that, when you're "on call", your time is not your own.
You're expected to be ready and able to drop everything at a moments notice and go to work, immediately.Very few employees will fire or seriously penalize you for an occasional delayed response.
Grumbling from your manager doesn't count -  you shouldn't allow your personal life to be destroyed just because someone thinks it's convenient.
Just go ahead and set the phone to silent during sex/movies/meals/etc and check it afterwards.
Chances are, nobody will call in that short time.
If they do, just say "sorry, I just noticed this call now".
If you answer in 90\% of cases, there shouldn't be any problem.
If you are always unavailable during off hours, you need to look for jobs accordingly.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273544</id>
	<title>Bullshit</title>
	<author>sexconker</author>
	<datestamp>1259614620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>A webmaster, likewise, has slow times and busy times.</p></div><p>Bullshit.  Any tech employee will have busy times and OH SHIT times.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>A webmaster , likewise , has slow times and busy times.Bullshit .
Any tech employee will have busy times and OH SHIT times .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A webmaster, likewise, has slow times and busy times.Bullshit.
Any tech employee will have busy times and OH SHIT times.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30284700</id>
	<title>What was in the employment agreement you signed?</title>
	<author>JustNiz</author>
	<datestamp>1259689500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What was in the employment agreement you signed? If you already signed an employment agreement that says they can demand you to be on-call for nothing then its your own stupid fault.</p><p>An employment contract should be an agreement between equals. Think of yourself as being a supplier of services to your company, not a subservient slave. In return for your time you get money. More time = more money. No successful business in the world does anything for free, so why should you?</p><p>If you are asked to do anything at all beyond your existing employment contract (i.e. in your own time), then you should first have the option to say yes or no witnout predjudice, and then be appropriately compensated for the extra effort ON YOUR TERMS not theirs.</p><p>A lot of tech companies are used to forcing employees into doing extra work in their own time at short notice and for no extra pay, and a lot of employees cave in. Those people are sending the message to companies that its OK to keep screwing us. Immediately the cavers stop being the companies bitch and grow some balls, the companies will treat us all with more repsect.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What was in the employment agreement you signed ?
If you already signed an employment agreement that says they can demand you to be on-call for nothing then its your own stupid fault.An employment contract should be an agreement between equals .
Think of yourself as being a supplier of services to your company , not a subservient slave .
In return for your time you get money .
More time = more money .
No successful business in the world does anything for free , so why should you ? If you are asked to do anything at all beyond your existing employment contract ( i.e .
in your own time ) , then you should first have the option to say yes or no witnout predjudice , and then be appropriately compensated for the extra effort ON YOUR TERMS not theirs.A lot of tech companies are used to forcing employees into doing extra work in their own time at short notice and for no extra pay , and a lot of employees cave in .
Those people are sending the message to companies that its OK to keep screwing us .
Immediately the cavers stop being the companies bitch and grow some balls , the companies will treat us all with more repsect .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What was in the employment agreement you signed?
If you already signed an employment agreement that says they can demand you to be on-call for nothing then its your own stupid fault.An employment contract should be an agreement between equals.
Think of yourself as being a supplier of services to your company, not a subservient slave.
In return for your time you get money.
More time = more money.
No successful business in the world does anything for free, so why should you?If you are asked to do anything at all beyond your existing employment contract (i.e.
in your own time), then you should first have the option to say yes or no witnout predjudice, and then be appropriately compensated for the extra effort ON YOUR TERMS not theirs.A lot of tech companies are used to forcing employees into doing extra work in their own time at short notice and for no extra pay, and a lot of employees cave in.
Those people are sending the message to companies that its OK to keep screwing us.
Immediately the cavers stop being the companies bitch and grow some balls, the companies will treat us all with more repsect.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274296</id>
	<title>Re:hospital model...</title>
	<author>ahoehn</author>
	<datestamp>1259574000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Physicians have been fighting this battle for quite some time.  Traditionally, they only get paid for the services they actually render on call, so if a surgeon gets called in at 3:00AM to do an emergency appendectomy, they only get paid for doing the appendectomy, and nothing extra for having their sleep interrupted. </p><p>One of my family members just moved to an area where the physicians have negotiated a "Pay for Call" system with the local hospitals.  Whatever specialist is covering a service gets paid a flat fee for covering call for a 24/hour period (IIRC, ~$800), in addition to getting paid for the actual services rendered.   It's a pretty sweet deal - and while $800 might be excessive, I think the principle is correct.  You want the ability to interrupt my life and restrict my travel / recreation options?  You get to pay for that. </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Physicians have been fighting this battle for quite some time .
Traditionally , they only get paid for the services they actually render on call , so if a surgeon gets called in at 3 : 00AM to do an emergency appendectomy , they only get paid for doing the appendectomy , and nothing extra for having their sleep interrupted .
One of my family members just moved to an area where the physicians have negotiated a " Pay for Call " system with the local hospitals .
Whatever specialist is covering a service gets paid a flat fee for covering call for a 24/hour period ( IIRC , ~ $ 800 ) , in addition to getting paid for the actual services rendered .
It 's a pretty sweet deal - and while $ 800 might be excessive , I think the principle is correct .
You want the ability to interrupt my life and restrict my travel / recreation options ?
You get to pay for that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Physicians have been fighting this battle for quite some time.
Traditionally, they only get paid for the services they actually render on call, so if a surgeon gets called in at 3:00AM to do an emergency appendectomy, they only get paid for doing the appendectomy, and nothing extra for having their sleep interrupted.
One of my family members just moved to an area where the physicians have negotiated a "Pay for Call" system with the local hospitals.
Whatever specialist is covering a service gets paid a flat fee for covering call for a 24/hour period (IIRC, ~$800), in addition to getting paid for the actual services rendered.
It's a pretty sweet deal - and while $800 might be excessive, I think the principle is correct.
You want the ability to interrupt my life and restrict my travel / recreation options?
You get to pay for that. </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273490</id>
	<title>Wrong!</title>
	<author>Chris Mattern</author>
	<datestamp>1259614440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Most of the time, a fire fighter is off-duty but on call,</p></div></blockquote><p>100 percent of wrong.  Firefighters are not off-duty when they are on-call.  They are on-duty.  When they go off-duty, they are no longer on call.  Firefighters are typically on-duty for a 24-hour shift for two or three days a week.  On their off days, they are not on call.  Thus, most of the time, a firefighter is NOT on call.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most of the time , a fire fighter is off-duty but on call,100 percent of wrong .
Firefighters are not off-duty when they are on-call .
They are on-duty .
When they go off-duty , they are no longer on call .
Firefighters are typically on-duty for a 24-hour shift for two or three days a week .
On their off days , they are not on call .
Thus , most of the time , a firefighter is NOT on call .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most of the time, a fire fighter is off-duty but on call,100 percent of wrong.
Firefighters are not off-duty when they are on-call.
They are on-duty.
When they go off-duty, they are no longer on call.
Firefighters are typically on-duty for a 24-hour shift for two or three days a week.
On their off days, they are not on call.
Thus, most of the time, a firefighter is NOT on call.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30280426</id>
	<title>Re: slow times and busy times</title>
	<author>dave87656</author>
	<datestamp>1259658300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I take issue with the comparison between a Webmaster and a Firefighter. A firefighter gets paid for hanging around, mostly, then being put in harms way when there's a fire. A webmaster has a 40 hour full work week. If you hire a webmaster who's only job is to wait provide emergency on call help, then it would be a different story. If it's an occasional call, of course, then, I wouldn't make a big deal about it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I take issue with the comparison between a Webmaster and a Firefighter .
A firefighter gets paid for hanging around , mostly , then being put in harms way when there 's a fire .
A webmaster has a 40 hour full work week .
If you hire a webmaster who 's only job is to wait provide emergency on call help , then it would be a different story .
If it 's an occasional call , of course , then , I would n't make a big deal about it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I take issue with the comparison between a Webmaster and a Firefighter.
A firefighter gets paid for hanging around, mostly, then being put in harms way when there's a fire.
A webmaster has a 40 hour full work week.
If you hire a webmaster who's only job is to wait provide emergency on call help, then it would be a different story.
If it's an occasional call, of course, then, I wouldn't make a big deal about it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274850</id>
	<title>Re:He's not really "on call"</title>
	<author>thadmiller</author>
	<datestamp>1259576160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the guy FTA agreed to "whatever" to not be unemployed, then he needs to live with the consequences, force a contract renewal, or look for a new job.</p><p>That said, I don't think you can equate what he's doing to a plumber, lawn mowing guy, electrician, mechanic, etc.  Inferring from his comments, <i>Dazed and Confused</i> is working 40 hrs/week and getting paid for it, but then he's on call 24/7 without any type of reimbursement (not only no pay for being "on call", but also no compensation for work performed "after hours").  If you paid your auto-mechanic for 40 hours of work, do you expect him to be at your beck and call, no matter the day or time, and expect service without further payment?  If someone manages to convince any of these "use you when I need you" people to work on this basis, they are one hell of a salesman.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the guy FTA agreed to " whatever " to not be unemployed , then he needs to live with the consequences , force a contract renewal , or look for a new job.That said , I do n't think you can equate what he 's doing to a plumber , lawn mowing guy , electrician , mechanic , etc .
Inferring from his comments , Dazed and Confused is working 40 hrs/week and getting paid for it , but then he 's on call 24/7 without any type of reimbursement ( not only no pay for being " on call " , but also no compensation for work performed " after hours " ) .
If you paid your auto-mechanic for 40 hours of work , do you expect him to be at your beck and call , no matter the day or time , and expect service without further payment ?
If someone manages to convince any of these " use you when I need you " people to work on this basis , they are one hell of a salesman .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the guy FTA agreed to "whatever" to not be unemployed, then he needs to live with the consequences, force a contract renewal, or look for a new job.That said, I don't think you can equate what he's doing to a plumber, lawn mowing guy, electrician, mechanic, etc.
Inferring from his comments, Dazed and Confused is working 40 hrs/week and getting paid for it, but then he's on call 24/7 without any type of reimbursement (not only no pay for being "on call", but also no compensation for work performed "after hours").
If you paid your auto-mechanic for 40 hours of work, do you expect him to be at your beck and call, no matter the day or time, and expect service without further payment?
If someone manages to convince any of these "use you when I need you" people to work on this basis, they are one hell of a salesman.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273972</id>
	<title>Re:Firefighting</title>
	<author>Kjella</author>
	<datestamp>1259572860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I guess the working conditions depends on where, around here firefighters are definitely on call. I don't know the exact shifts but it's a mix of:</p><p>a) On duty = At the station<br>b) On call = Phone on, sober, within a given travel distance<br>c) Off duty = Drunk on safari in Africa for all they care</p><p>Oh, and they might optimistically try to call in everyone if there's a huge crisis, it's not sacred. You're just not required to be ready for duty.</p><p>It's pay all around, for the shifts, for being on call, for being called out, for the working hours, the whole lot. Not great pay for what they're doing, but they certainly don't do it for free.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess the working conditions depends on where , around here firefighters are definitely on call .
I do n't know the exact shifts but it 's a mix of : a ) On duty = At the stationb ) On call = Phone on , sober , within a given travel distancec ) Off duty = Drunk on safari in Africa for all they careOh , and they might optimistically try to call in everyone if there 's a huge crisis , it 's not sacred .
You 're just not required to be ready for duty.It 's pay all around , for the shifts , for being on call , for being called out , for the working hours , the whole lot .
Not great pay for what they 're doing , but they certainly do n't do it for free .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess the working conditions depends on where, around here firefighters are definitely on call.
I don't know the exact shifts but it's a mix of:a) On duty = At the stationb) On call = Phone on, sober, within a given travel distancec) Off duty = Drunk on safari in Africa for all they careOh, and they might optimistically try to call in everyone if there's a huge crisis, it's not sacred.
You're just not required to be ready for duty.It's pay all around, for the shifts, for being on call, for being called out, for the working hours, the whole lot.
Not great pay for what they're doing, but they certainly don't do it for free.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273322</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273260</id>
	<title>ahhh lawyers....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259613720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>where labour laws apply to everyone but them.</p><p>so, question for the lawyer: you're called by a client at 0200 am regarding a contract dispute in southeast asia; at what rate do you bill them? hourly? or do you ignore the phone and get back to them in the morning because it just wasn't 'critical' to you?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>where labour laws apply to everyone but them.so , question for the lawyer : you 're called by a client at 0200 am regarding a contract dispute in southeast asia ; at what rate do you bill them ?
hourly ? or do you ignore the phone and get back to them in the morning because it just was n't 'critical ' to you ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>where labour laws apply to everyone but them.so, question for the lawyer: you're called by a client at 0200 am regarding a contract dispute in southeast asia; at what rate do you bill them?
hourly? or do you ignore the phone and get back to them in the morning because it just wasn't 'critical' to you?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274528</id>
	<title>Re:He's not really "on call"</title>
	<author>sanosuke001</author>
	<datestamp>1259574900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Except those other jobs make their own hours. A website expects to be running 24/7 and if it goes down, they expect you to fix it ASAP. If your faucet doesn't work for 24 hours, not a HUGE deal. If it is an emergency, some places will cater but they charge you extra for 24/7 service; too.<br> <br>

Now, I assume from his statement that he works 40 hours plus being on call means he is their full-time IT guy but he works for himself (ie. no W-2 and no taxes withheld). If they want him available all the time, he should be paid for it. His full hourly rate (or salary equivalent)? Probably not; but he should be paid to be available.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Except those other jobs make their own hours .
A website expects to be running 24/7 and if it goes down , they expect you to fix it ASAP .
If your faucet does n't work for 24 hours , not a HUGE deal .
If it is an emergency , some places will cater but they charge you extra for 24/7 service ; too .
Now , I assume from his statement that he works 40 hours plus being on call means he is their full-time IT guy but he works for himself ( ie .
no W-2 and no taxes withheld ) .
If they want him available all the time , he should be paid for it .
His full hourly rate ( or salary equivalent ) ?
Probably not ; but he should be paid to be available .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Except those other jobs make their own hours.
A website expects to be running 24/7 and if it goes down, they expect you to fix it ASAP.
If your faucet doesn't work for 24 hours, not a HUGE deal.
If it is an emergency, some places will cater but they charge you extra for 24/7 service; too.
Now, I assume from his statement that he works 40 hours plus being on call means he is their full-time IT guy but he works for himself (ie.
no W-2 and no taxes withheld).
If they want him available all the time, he should be paid for it.
His full hourly rate (or salary equivalent)?
Probably not; but he should be paid to be available.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274480</id>
	<title>The Time Evens Out in the End</title>
	<author>Conchobair</author>
	<datestamp>1259574660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I started to do the math and stopped when I figured the amount of time I spend working on the weekend and after hours was roughly the same as the amount of time I spend posting on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.
<br>
<br>
If you are my boss reading this, I'm just joking.  Seriously though, they let me leave early enough and with lunches and breaks all seem to work out to roughly the same time.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I started to do the math and stopped when I figured the amount of time I spend working on the weekend and after hours was roughly the same as the amount of time I spend posting on / .
If you are my boss reading this , I 'm just joking .
Seriously though , they let me leave early enough and with lunches and breaks all seem to work out to roughly the same time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started to do the math and stopped when I figured the amount of time I spend working on the weekend and after hours was roughly the same as the amount of time I spend posting on /.
If you are my boss reading this, I'm just joking.
Seriously though, they let me leave early enough and with lunches and breaks all seem to work out to roughly the same time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275866</id>
	<title>Re:Firefighting</title>
	<author>Adrian Lopez</author>
	<datestamp>1259580060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The most ridiculous thing is the part where Mr. Lawyer claims that what a firefighter gets paid for "is the relatively small, but crucial, amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax." According to this guy's idea of fair compensation for firefighters, these people would be better off starting fires to drum up business on days when there's no fire, because apparently they're not really doing any work unless they're literally fighting fires.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The most ridiculous thing is the part where Mr. Lawyer claims that what a firefighter gets paid for " is the relatively small , but crucial , amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax .
" According to this guy 's idea of fair compensation for firefighters , these people would be better off starting fires to drum up business on days when there 's no fire , because apparently they 're not really doing any work unless they 're literally fighting fires .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The most ridiculous thing is the part where Mr. Lawyer claims that what a firefighter gets paid for "is the relatively small, but crucial, amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax.
" According to this guy's idea of fair compensation for firefighters, these people would be better off starting fires to drum up business on days when there's no fire, because apparently they're not really doing any work unless they're literally fighting fires.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273322</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275892</id>
	<title>Paramdics</title>
	<author>kuzb</author>
	<datestamp>1259580180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think it really depends on how essential the service is.  If you're part of an essential service, you're damn right you should get paid for carrying a pager.  Other jobs, well, I really don't know.  I think you'd have to take it on a case-by-case basis.</p><p>In Canada, part-time paramedics who carry pagers make $2/hour unless they get a call (in which case they get a "call rate").  Personally I think this is pretty ridiculous considering you have to be within a certain distance of the station, and ready to go with only a moment's notice.  I personally think that anyone who is "on-call" for an essential service should be paid better than this for being restricted in how far away from the station they can go.</p><p>This trend is even more disturbing when you realize that nearly 40\% of all Canadian paramedics are part time, and that this number is growing.  The government is using part time paramedics as a means to slash wages for the full time ones by way of reducing their working hours and shifts.  Additionally, because they are an essential service, they are not allowed to walk off the job and strike.  The only form of protest they can implement is by putting signs on their ambulances, and picketing in their off hours.  which of course amounts to nothing getting done.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think it really depends on how essential the service is .
If you 're part of an essential service , you 're damn right you should get paid for carrying a pager .
Other jobs , well , I really do n't know .
I think you 'd have to take it on a case-by-case basis.In Canada , part-time paramedics who carry pagers make $ 2/hour unless they get a call ( in which case they get a " call rate " ) .
Personally I think this is pretty ridiculous considering you have to be within a certain distance of the station , and ready to go with only a moment 's notice .
I personally think that anyone who is " on-call " for an essential service should be paid better than this for being restricted in how far away from the station they can go.This trend is even more disturbing when you realize that nearly 40 \ % of all Canadian paramedics are part time , and that this number is growing .
The government is using part time paramedics as a means to slash wages for the full time ones by way of reducing their working hours and shifts .
Additionally , because they are an essential service , they are not allowed to walk off the job and strike .
The only form of protest they can implement is by putting signs on their ambulances , and picketing in their off hours .
which of course amounts to nothing getting done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think it really depends on how essential the service is.
If you're part of an essential service, you're damn right you should get paid for carrying a pager.
Other jobs, well, I really don't know.
I think you'd have to take it on a case-by-case basis.In Canada, part-time paramedics who carry pagers make $2/hour unless they get a call (in which case they get a "call rate").
Personally I think this is pretty ridiculous considering you have to be within a certain distance of the station, and ready to go with only a moment's notice.
I personally think that anyone who is "on-call" for an essential service should be paid better than this for being restricted in how far away from the station they can go.This trend is even more disturbing when you realize that nearly 40\% of all Canadian paramedics are part time, and that this number is growing.
The government is using part time paramedics as a means to slash wages for the full time ones by way of reducing their working hours and shifts.
Additionally, because they are an essential service, they are not allowed to walk off the job and strike.
The only form of protest they can implement is by putting signs on their ambulances, and picketing in their off hours.
which of course amounts to nothing getting done.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278722</id>
	<title>Paid for being on call? Yes, please!</title>
	<author>B33RM17</author>
	<datestamp>1259596980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think it would be only fair that an IT person get paid for being on call beyond their regular work hours. Especially if they are willing to make themselves available all 168 hours of the week. To me, that takes true commitment to the job and the spirit of real trooper.
I can only imagine how taxing that might be on a person to get called any time during the day for a problem they may or may not be prepared for.<br> <br>
Last year I had picked up a similar job to help fund my way through college. While my on call hours were only the same as the business, since it was only regular business hours (9-5), it was still a bit hectic.<br> <br>
I thought it was fair I only got paid for the work I did, plus I got compensated for driving time. It would have been nice to receive pay for the 8 hours I was on call, considering there were a few occasions where I had to leave class early for a technical emergency, but all in all, I still attained some good experience and knowledge.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think it would be only fair that an IT person get paid for being on call beyond their regular work hours .
Especially if they are willing to make themselves available all 168 hours of the week .
To me , that takes true commitment to the job and the spirit of real trooper .
I can only imagine how taxing that might be on a person to get called any time during the day for a problem they may or may not be prepared for .
Last year I had picked up a similar job to help fund my way through college .
While my on call hours were only the same as the business , since it was only regular business hours ( 9-5 ) , it was still a bit hectic .
I thought it was fair I only got paid for the work I did , plus I got compensated for driving time .
It would have been nice to receive pay for the 8 hours I was on call , considering there were a few occasions where I had to leave class early for a technical emergency , but all in all , I still attained some good experience and knowledge .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think it would be only fair that an IT person get paid for being on call beyond their regular work hours.
Especially if they are willing to make themselves available all 168 hours of the week.
To me, that takes true commitment to the job and the spirit of real trooper.
I can only imagine how taxing that might be on a person to get called any time during the day for a problem they may or may not be prepared for.
Last year I had picked up a similar job to help fund my way through college.
While my on call hours were only the same as the business, since it was only regular business hours (9-5), it was still a bit hectic.
I thought it was fair I only got paid for the work I did, plus I got compensated for driving time.
It would have been nice to receive pay for the 8 hours I was on call, considering there were a few occasions where I had to leave class early for a technical emergency, but all in all, I still attained some good experience and knowledge.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273268</id>
	<title>Dear Mister Lawyer.... STFU... Thanks.</title>
	<author>theNetImp</author>
	<datestamp>1259613780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As someone who is a web developer/webmaster web-whatever-you-want-to-call-it.  At most of my jobs I spend most of my 40 hours a week busy.  Doing work.  When I have done systems administration, it's been the same thing.  I am 90\% busy those 40 hours per week.  There are VERY little slow periods, unlike a Fire fighter (not to dis fire fighters) who spend most of their day waiting to be called to work.   If I work 40hrs during the week, and then get called in 3-4 nights because something is acting up, in a way that wasn't expected, I should get paid for being on call, or the employer should wait until I am in during the morning.  Mister Lawyer.  Until you are in my shoes, please politely STFU.... Thanks</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone who is a web developer/webmaster web-whatever-you-want-to-call-it .
At most of my jobs I spend most of my 40 hours a week busy .
Doing work .
When I have done systems administration , it 's been the same thing .
I am 90 \ % busy those 40 hours per week .
There are VERY little slow periods , unlike a Fire fighter ( not to dis fire fighters ) who spend most of their day waiting to be called to work .
If I work 40hrs during the week , and then get called in 3-4 nights because something is acting up , in a way that was n't expected , I should get paid for being on call , or the employer should wait until I am in during the morning .
Mister Lawyer .
Until you are in my shoes , please politely STFU.... Thanks</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone who is a web developer/webmaster web-whatever-you-want-to-call-it.
At most of my jobs I spend most of my 40 hours a week busy.
Doing work.
When I have done systems administration, it's been the same thing.
I am 90\% busy those 40 hours per week.
There are VERY little slow periods, unlike a Fire fighter (not to dis fire fighters) who spend most of their day waiting to be called to work.
If I work 40hrs during the week, and then get called in 3-4 nights because something is acting up, in a way that wasn't expected, I should get paid for being on call, or the employer should wait until I am in during the morning.
Mister Lawyer.
Until you are in my shoes, please politely STFU.... Thanks</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274346</id>
	<title>Re:Firefighting</title>
	<author>QuantumRiff</author>
	<datestamp>1259574120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My brother is a firefighter, works 24 on, 72 off.  He is at the station the entire time he is "on call", and never, ever gets called when off duty, unless someone needs to trade shifts.   If he has training to do, it is either done during his shift (with obvious breaks for fires) or he gets paid additional to come in during his off time (or gets a 24 hour shift waived as payment, basically trading time)</p><p>Is the lawyer thinking of Volunteer firefighters?  they usually work their real jobs during the day, and when the call comes, go to work as a firefighter.  Many Volunteer departments in rural areas don't pay the firefighters, but do re-imburse them a token amount for mileage when they drive to the scene.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My brother is a firefighter , works 24 on , 72 off .
He is at the station the entire time he is " on call " , and never , ever gets called when off duty , unless someone needs to trade shifts .
If he has training to do , it is either done during his shift ( with obvious breaks for fires ) or he gets paid additional to come in during his off time ( or gets a 24 hour shift waived as payment , basically trading time ) Is the lawyer thinking of Volunteer firefighters ?
they usually work their real jobs during the day , and when the call comes , go to work as a firefighter .
Many Volunteer departments in rural areas do n't pay the firefighters , but do re-imburse them a token amount for mileage when they drive to the scene .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My brother is a firefighter, works 24 on, 72 off.
He is at the station the entire time he is "on call", and never, ever gets called when off duty, unless someone needs to trade shifts.
If he has training to do, it is either done during his shift (with obvious breaks for fires) or he gets paid additional to come in during his off time (or gets a 24 hour shift waived as payment, basically trading time)Is the lawyer thinking of Volunteer firefighters?
they usually work their real jobs during the day, and when the call comes, go to work as a firefighter.
Many Volunteer departments in rural areas don't pay the firefighters, but do re-imburse them a token amount for mileage when they drive to the scene.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273322</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273456</id>
	<title>The rules are simple</title>
	<author>Jailbrekr</author>
	<datestamp>1259614380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>- If you are in salary, then there is an expectation of being on call. How you work out the benefits of being on call (flex time, on call stipend) is between you and your employer.</p><p>- If you are a contractor, you are paid by the hour and all work, regardless of whether it is in the office or at home gets billed. you can maintain some flexibility with this (ie: don't charge travel time, charge at a reduced rate for things you are learning etc).</p><p>The employer can't have its cake and eat it too. There needs to be a middle ground. If they are refusing to budge, then find employment elsewhere. Its always easier to launch into a job job when you are already working so get your resume updated and start looking.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>- If you are in salary , then there is an expectation of being on call .
How you work out the benefits of being on call ( flex time , on call stipend ) is between you and your employer.- If you are a contractor , you are paid by the hour and all work , regardless of whether it is in the office or at home gets billed .
you can maintain some flexibility with this ( ie : do n't charge travel time , charge at a reduced rate for things you are learning etc ) .The employer ca n't have its cake and eat it too .
There needs to be a middle ground .
If they are refusing to budge , then find employment elsewhere .
Its always easier to launch into a job job when you are already working so get your resume updated and start looking .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>- If you are in salary, then there is an expectation of being on call.
How you work out the benefits of being on call (flex time, on call stipend) is between you and your employer.- If you are a contractor, you are paid by the hour and all work, regardless of whether it is in the office or at home gets billed.
you can maintain some flexibility with this (ie: don't charge travel time, charge at a reduced rate for things you are learning etc).The employer can't have its cake and eat it too.
There needs to be a middle ground.
If they are refusing to budge, then find employment elsewhere.
Its always easier to launch into a job job when you are already working so get your resume updated and start looking.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276500</id>
	<title>Lawyers are not firefighters...</title>
	<author>modustollens</author>
	<datestamp>1259582220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Most of the time, a fire fighter is off-duty but on call, hanging around the firehouse, cooking, sleeping, or whatever"


Bunk.  When I was with the fire service when at the fire hall we were not 'on call'.  The guys who were at home with a pager - and who only came in if the resources on duty were stressed, were on call and they were paid a percentage of their wage for those hours and had some restrictions placed on their time (i.e, they were not allowed to drink or to travel outside the city).

Our service had two 12 hour shifts, one for day, one for night.  The 'on call' shift was the day shift at night; and the night shift at day.  There were four shifts in total.  So, work a week - a duty shift and an on call shift, then get a week off.

Welcome to the world of the white collar proletariat.  On call without compensation 24/7 - get *&amp;^&amp;*Y*(&amp;^!</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Most of the time , a fire fighter is off-duty but on call , hanging around the firehouse , cooking , sleeping , or whatever " Bunk .
When I was with the fire service when at the fire hall we were not 'on call' .
The guys who were at home with a pager - and who only came in if the resources on duty were stressed , were on call and they were paid a percentage of their wage for those hours and had some restrictions placed on their time ( i.e , they were not allowed to drink or to travel outside the city ) .
Our service had two 12 hour shifts , one for day , one for night .
The 'on call ' shift was the day shift at night ; and the night shift at day .
There were four shifts in total .
So , work a week - a duty shift and an on call shift , then get a week off .
Welcome to the world of the white collar proletariat .
On call without compensation 24/7 - get * &amp; ^ &amp; * Y * ( &amp; ^ !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Most of the time, a fire fighter is off-duty but on call, hanging around the firehouse, cooking, sleeping, or whatever"


Bunk.
When I was with the fire service when at the fire hall we were not 'on call'.
The guys who were at home with a pager - and who only came in if the resources on duty were stressed, were on call and they were paid a percentage of their wage for those hours and had some restrictions placed on their time (i.e, they were not allowed to drink or to travel outside the city).
Our service had two 12 hour shifts, one for day, one for night.
The 'on call' shift was the day shift at night; and the night shift at day.
There were four shifts in total.
So, work a week - a duty shift and an on call shift, then get a week off.
Welcome to the world of the white collar proletariat.
On call without compensation 24/7 - get *&amp;^&amp;*Y*(&amp;^!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274718</id>
	<title>Flawed logic.</title>
	<author>chrispix</author>
	<datestamp>1259575620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>After working at a city w/ fire fighters &amp; police officers the logic is very flawed in what I have seen.

The city where I work, the fire fighters work 24hr shifts every 3 days. 1 on, 2 off. During that 24hrs, they are expected to be at the fire house, or on a fire truck, or doing work related business.
If there is a shortage at a station, usually a fire fighter will be asked to stay over one extra shift for extra pay, or comp-time. Either that, or they might re-arrange some of the work force at the stations for a shift to cover a shortage.

This is also similar to the Police officers. Because the department is pretty small, police officers are often on call for certain things, such as crime scene investigation. Those officers I think are signed up for one week at a time. But they get a minimum of 2hrs pay for coming in on their day off. They do get incentive pay for certain positions, and I think that pay is to help off-set the cost of carrying around a pager. But needless to say, they get paid for their time.</htmltext>
<tokenext>After working at a city w/ fire fighters &amp; police officers the logic is very flawed in what I have seen .
The city where I work , the fire fighters work 24hr shifts every 3 days .
1 on , 2 off .
During that 24hrs , they are expected to be at the fire house , or on a fire truck , or doing work related business .
If there is a shortage at a station , usually a fire fighter will be asked to stay over one extra shift for extra pay , or comp-time .
Either that , or they might re-arrange some of the work force at the stations for a shift to cover a shortage .
This is also similar to the Police officers .
Because the department is pretty small , police officers are often on call for certain things , such as crime scene investigation .
Those officers I think are signed up for one week at a time .
But they get a minimum of 2hrs pay for coming in on their day off .
They do get incentive pay for certain positions , and I think that pay is to help off-set the cost of carrying around a pager .
But needless to say , they get paid for their time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>After working at a city w/ fire fighters &amp; police officers the logic is very flawed in what I have seen.
The city where I work, the fire fighters work 24hr shifts every 3 days.
1 on, 2 off.
During that 24hrs, they are expected to be at the fire house, or on a fire truck, or doing work related business.
If there is a shortage at a station, usually a fire fighter will be asked to stay over one extra shift for extra pay, or comp-time.
Either that, or they might re-arrange some of the work force at the stations for a shift to cover a shortage.
This is also similar to the Police officers.
Because the department is pretty small, police officers are often on call for certain things, such as crime scene investigation.
Those officers I think are signed up for one week at a time.
But they get a minimum of 2hrs pay for coming in on their day off.
They do get incentive pay for certain positions, and I think that pay is to help off-set the cost of carrying around a pager.
But needless to say, they get paid for their time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273964</id>
	<title>not going to do it</title>
	<author>globeadue</author>
	<datestamp>1259572800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>i won't work for no overtime credit.
I have always demanded comp time or pay, no exceptions.
It's not like i sit idle at work and my managers/bosses know it so never been a problem.</htmltext>
<tokenext>i wo n't work for no overtime credit .
I have always demanded comp time or pay , no exceptions .
It 's not like i sit idle at work and my managers/bosses know it so never been a problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i won't work for no overtime credit.
I have always demanded comp time or pay, no exceptions.
It's not like i sit idle at work and my managers/bosses know it so never been a problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273252</id>
	<title>Not bloody likely!</title>
	<author>zoloto</author>
	<datestamp>1259613720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I get paid for the time I work, on an hourly basis. 5 minutes over the hour? Well that's one hour I bill for, just like you mr lawyer.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I get paid for the time I work , on an hourly basis .
5 minutes over the hour ?
Well that 's one hour I bill for , just like you mr lawyer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I get paid for the time I work, on an hourly basis.
5 minutes over the hour?
Well that's one hour I bill for, just like you mr lawyer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274892</id>
	<title>9to5/Consulting</title>
	<author>digitalhermit</author>
	<datestamp>1259576400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I run/ran a very small consulting company (3 employees including me). The rates are based on SLAs. We respond to calls during business hours, but are available with a 6 hour SLA for non-business hours. If a problem requires immediate response, we charge per incident. This cost keeps expectations in line. If we didn't charge then the customers would call for everything.  We do factor in the on-call hours when we price the contracts and have a rotation. The subscription cost is not for the support, but for the right to get support.</p><p>I'd also suggest getting a netbook/3G card so you're not confined to your house when you're on call.</p><p>At my 9 to 5 it's a little different. We have a duty phone rotation so we're on call one week then off for two. We also have a support desk that fields the minor issues. SLAs for non-production and production systems are a must. Without SLAs people will call at 2AM for the stupidest reasons.  Your pay should be in line with the expectations.</p><p>If you are the only support person for a business critical application then if it goes down you will get called so maybe it's time to either re-negotiate or train a secondary.</p><p>
&nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I run/ran a very small consulting company ( 3 employees including me ) .
The rates are based on SLAs .
We respond to calls during business hours , but are available with a 6 hour SLA for non-business hours .
If a problem requires immediate response , we charge per incident .
This cost keeps expectations in line .
If we did n't charge then the customers would call for everything .
We do factor in the on-call hours when we price the contracts and have a rotation .
The subscription cost is not for the support , but for the right to get support.I 'd also suggest getting a netbook/3G card so you 're not confined to your house when you 're on call.At my 9 to 5 it 's a little different .
We have a duty phone rotation so we 're on call one week then off for two .
We also have a support desk that fields the minor issues .
SLAs for non-production and production systems are a must .
Without SLAs people will call at 2AM for the stupidest reasons .
Your pay should be in line with the expectations.If you are the only support person for a business critical application then if it goes down you will get called so maybe it 's time to either re-negotiate or train a secondary .
 </tokentext>
<sentencetext>I run/ran a very small consulting company (3 employees including me).
The rates are based on SLAs.
We respond to calls during business hours, but are available with a 6 hour SLA for non-business hours.
If a problem requires immediate response, we charge per incident.
This cost keeps expectations in line.
If we didn't charge then the customers would call for everything.
We do factor in the on-call hours when we price the contracts and have a rotation.
The subscription cost is not for the support, but for the right to get support.I'd also suggest getting a netbook/3G card so you're not confined to your house when you're on call.At my 9 to 5 it's a little different.
We have a duty phone rotation so we're on call one week then off for two.
We also have a support desk that fields the minor issues.
SLAs for non-production and production systems are a must.
Without SLAs people will call at 2AM for the stupidest reasons.
Your pay should be in line with the expectations.If you are the only support person for a business critical application then if it goes down you will get called so maybe it's time to either re-negotiate or train a secondary.
 </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274544</id>
	<title>Should You Be Paid For Being On Call?</title>
	<author>QuietLagoon</author>
	<datestamp>1259574900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes.  The only people who have a different opinion tend to be the employers who are exploiting the people on call, making them work unpaid overtime.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes .
The only people who have a different opinion tend to be the employers who are exploiting the people on call , making them work unpaid overtime .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes.
The only people who have a different opinion tend to be the employers who are exploiting the people on call, making them work unpaid overtime.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275388</id>
	<title>Re:He's not really "on call"</title>
	<author>bestalexguy</author>
	<datestamp>1259578440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ever tried to call your lawn mowing guy at Sunday 4AM? How much are you paying a plumber for a one hour emergency job at midnight in your area? How long does it take to be trained as a plumber or lawn mowing guy, and how long to become a good webmaster?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ever tried to call your lawn mowing guy at Sunday 4AM ?
How much are you paying a plumber for a one hour emergency job at midnight in your area ?
How long does it take to be trained as a plumber or lawn mowing guy , and how long to become a good webmaster ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ever tried to call your lawn mowing guy at Sunday 4AM?
How much are you paying a plumber for a one hour emergency job at midnight in your area?
How long does it take to be trained as a plumber or lawn mowing guy, and how long to become a good webmaster?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278844</id>
	<title>Re:The point is that your time is not your own</title>
	<author>Culture20</author>
	<datestamp>1259597760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Most employers I've worked with have given a day of "comp" time in exchange for a week on-call</p></div><p>...and that day of comp time you're expected to be on call too?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most employers I 've worked with have given a day of " comp " time in exchange for a week on-call...and that day of comp time you 're expected to be on call too ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most employers I've worked with have given a day of "comp" time in exchange for a week on-call...and that day of comp time you're expected to be on call too?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273550</id>
	<title>Too many people, not enough jobs</title>
	<author>Paktu</author>
	<datestamp>1259614620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In the current economy, few companies are willing to pay IT employees for being on call while many IT employees are happy just to have a job and will bend over and spread their legs for the company.  This is just an unfortunate consequence of there being too many people and not enough jobs.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In the current economy , few companies are willing to pay IT employees for being on call while many IT employees are happy just to have a job and will bend over and spread their legs for the company .
This is just an unfortunate consequence of there being too many people and not enough jobs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the current economy, few companies are willing to pay IT employees for being on call while many IT employees are happy just to have a job and will bend over and spread their legs for the company.
This is just an unfortunate consequence of there being too many people and not enough jobs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274228</id>
	<title>My oncall</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259573700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Paid 1 hour per weekday of being on-call and 3 hours per day on the weekend or stat holiday.  This is paid at straight time.  If you get called you get paid for what you work at 1.5x the rate.  There is a 6 person rotation so you are only on-call once every 2 months or so.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Paid 1 hour per weekday of being on-call and 3 hours per day on the weekend or stat holiday .
This is paid at straight time .
If you get called you get paid for what you work at 1.5x the rate .
There is a 6 person rotation so you are only on-call once every 2 months or so .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Paid 1 hour per weekday of being on-call and 3 hours per day on the weekend or stat holiday.
This is paid at straight time.
If you get called you get paid for what you work at 1.5x the rate.
There is a 6 person rotation so you are only on-call once every 2 months or so.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30279238</id>
	<title>It all depends ...</title>
	<author>LoudMusic</author>
	<datestamp>1259601420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While full time and salaried I was the only IT personnel on staff and was effectively on call 24 / 7. Fortunately the staff of ~65 only needed me on a rare occasion, which I took non-monetary compensation in the form of vacation hours equal to the time I spent fixing problems during non office hours. It worked for us in that situation.</p><p>At my current job I've somehow regressed to hourly full time and do on call in shifts. Here I record the time I spend working while on call after business hours and include it on my time sheet. I either let it be overtime (x1.5) or just leave early on Friday. This works for my current employer.</p><p>During a very short lived contract position my employer arranged service contracts with his clients and I got a share of the contracts for the clients I was "on call" for.I guess you could call it a retainer fee.</p><p>It's very situation dependent.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While full time and salaried I was the only IT personnel on staff and was effectively on call 24 / 7 .
Fortunately the staff of ~ 65 only needed me on a rare occasion , which I took non-monetary compensation in the form of vacation hours equal to the time I spent fixing problems during non office hours .
It worked for us in that situation.At my current job I 've somehow regressed to hourly full time and do on call in shifts .
Here I record the time I spend working while on call after business hours and include it on my time sheet .
I either let it be overtime ( x1.5 ) or just leave early on Friday .
This works for my current employer.During a very short lived contract position my employer arranged service contracts with his clients and I got a share of the contracts for the clients I was " on call " for.I guess you could call it a retainer fee.It 's very situation dependent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While full time and salaried I was the only IT personnel on staff and was effectively on call 24 / 7.
Fortunately the staff of ~65 only needed me on a rare occasion, which I took non-monetary compensation in the form of vacation hours equal to the time I spent fixing problems during non office hours.
It worked for us in that situation.At my current job I've somehow regressed to hourly full time and do on call in shifts.
Here I record the time I spend working while on call after business hours and include it on my time sheet.
I either let it be overtime (x1.5) or just leave early on Friday.
This works for my current employer.During a very short lived contract position my employer arranged service contracts with his clients and I got a share of the contracts for the clients I was "on call" for.I guess you could call it a retainer fee.It's very situation dependent.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30290630</id>
	<title>Re:He's not really "on call"</title>
	<author>Archr5</author>
	<datestamp>1259669760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The article states that the IRS is investigating 7,000 companies who hire "independent contractors" for 40 hours a week and then expect them to be "on call" for free beyond that.  They're investigating those companies because those terms mean the person is no longer an independent contractor, it's an employee.<br><br>The "use you when I need you" people in our lives NEVER make themselves available to you 24 hours a day.  If they do, it's because they're being paid exorbitant amounts of money to be at your beck and call.  Find me a successful plumber who is cool with you calling him at 3:00 AM because your toilet is leaking, and will come out to fix it for free since you paid him for a new sink install last week.  He or She doesn't exist unless you're paying them a retainer on top of fees for services rendered.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The article states that the IRS is investigating 7,000 companies who hire " independent contractors " for 40 hours a week and then expect them to be " on call " for free beyond that .
They 're investigating those companies because those terms mean the person is no longer an independent contractor , it 's an employee.The " use you when I need you " people in our lives NEVER make themselves available to you 24 hours a day .
If they do , it 's because they 're being paid exorbitant amounts of money to be at your beck and call .
Find me a successful plumber who is cool with you calling him at 3 : 00 AM because your toilet is leaking , and will come out to fix it for free since you paid him for a new sink install last week .
He or She does n't exist unless you 're paying them a retainer on top of fees for services rendered .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The article states that the IRS is investigating 7,000 companies who hire "independent contractors" for 40 hours a week and then expect them to be "on call" for free beyond that.
They're investigating those companies because those terms mean the person is no longer an independent contractor, it's an employee.The "use you when I need you" people in our lives NEVER make themselves available to you 24 hours a day.
If they do, it's because they're being paid exorbitant amounts of money to be at your beck and call.
Find me a successful plumber who is cool with you calling him at 3:00 AM because your toilet is leaking, and will come out to fix it for free since you paid him for a new sink install last week.
He or She doesn't exist unless you're paying them a retainer on top of fees for services rendered.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273932</id>
	<title>My situation</title>
	<author>Sl4shd0t0rg</author>
	<datestamp>1259572680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My boss just tells me to come in late or not at all if I am called out.  I have no issues with that and it works out well for me.  Obviously not everyone has a boss like that and I know how lucky I am.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My boss just tells me to come in late or not at all if I am called out .
I have no issues with that and it works out well for me .
Obviously not everyone has a boss like that and I know how lucky I am .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My boss just tells me to come in late or not at all if I am called out.
I have no issues with that and it works out well for me.
Obviously not everyone has a boss like that and I know how lucky I am.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273780</id>
	<title>Probably not legally an independent contractor</title>
	<author>HikingStick</author>
	<datestamp>1259572140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I worked as an independent contractor for years, and at one point also ran a business that hired six independent contractors in three states, so I have some experience with these matters, though IANAL.<br> <br> That said, if the employer dictates the hours, provides the workspace, and the tools to do the job, then this person is likely a statutory employee under law.  Just because you have an independent contractor agreement doesn't mean you're automatically an independent contractor. Independent contractors must have a certain level of autonomy.  Some employers try to use independent contractor agreements as a way to get around payroll taxes, but if they get caught, they'll pay far more in back taxes and fees than they ever would have incurred by maintaining someone in employee status<br> <br>That said, if the person is a contractor, then s/he screwed up if the contract didn't address on-call or after-hours duties.  It would have been reasonable to include a per-incident fee for all after-hours calls, and/or a different rate for night and weekend work. Chalk it up to a learning experience, and submit a new contract for review if you want things to change. You'd best be ready to walk if you plan to do that, however.  The employer does not need to accept any new contract.  I sure hope you listed a contract renewal period, or process for ammendments and changes.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I worked as an independent contractor for years , and at one point also ran a business that hired six independent contractors in three states , so I have some experience with these matters , though IANAL .
That said , if the employer dictates the hours , provides the workspace , and the tools to do the job , then this person is likely a statutory employee under law .
Just because you have an independent contractor agreement does n't mean you 're automatically an independent contractor .
Independent contractors must have a certain level of autonomy .
Some employers try to use independent contractor agreements as a way to get around payroll taxes , but if they get caught , they 'll pay far more in back taxes and fees than they ever would have incurred by maintaining someone in employee status That said , if the person is a contractor , then s/he screwed up if the contract did n't address on-call or after-hours duties .
It would have been reasonable to include a per-incident fee for all after-hours calls , and/or a different rate for night and weekend work .
Chalk it up to a learning experience , and submit a new contract for review if you want things to change .
You 'd best be ready to walk if you plan to do that , however .
The employer does not need to accept any new contract .
I sure hope you listed a contract renewal period , or process for ammendments and changes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I worked as an independent contractor for years, and at one point also ran a business that hired six independent contractors in three states, so I have some experience with these matters, though IANAL.
That said, if the employer dictates the hours, provides the workspace, and the tools to do the job, then this person is likely a statutory employee under law.
Just because you have an independent contractor agreement doesn't mean you're automatically an independent contractor.
Independent contractors must have a certain level of autonomy.
Some employers try to use independent contractor agreements as a way to get around payroll taxes, but if they get caught, they'll pay far more in back taxes and fees than they ever would have incurred by maintaining someone in employee status That said, if the person is a contractor, then s/he screwed up if the contract didn't address on-call or after-hours duties.
It would have been reasonable to include a per-incident fee for all after-hours calls, and/or a different rate for night and weekend work.
Chalk it up to a learning experience, and submit a new contract for review if you want things to change.
You'd best be ready to walk if you plan to do that, however.
The employer does not need to accept any new contract.
I sure hope you listed a contract renewal period, or process for ammendments and changes.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275262</id>
	<title>Anne Fisher is why we need unions</title>
	<author>nbauman</author>
	<datestamp>1259578080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ask Fortune magazine about your rights as an employee/contractor? Why don't you ask Fritz the Cat about your rights as a mouse? <a href="http://www.saskndp.com/history/mouseland.php3" title="saskndp.com">http://www.saskndp.com/history/mouseland.php3</a> [saskndp.com]</p><p>Fortune magazine makes no secret about representing the interests of businesses and employers. Their answer to you is going to be, "Be glad you have a job, do what your boss says, you miserable groveling wretch."</p><p>(Journalism education) I've always said that you can tell whether a journalist is any good by seeing who they interview. Do they interview people from all sides of the issue, or do they just get the people they agree with and tailor the quotes to support the argument they want to make? Anne Fisher <a href="http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/25/news/economy/overtime.oncall.fortune/index.htm" title="cnn.com">http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/25/news/economy/overtime.oncall.fortune/index.htm</a> [cnn.com] interviewed two lawyers, one from Aiken Gump and the other from Fowler White Boggs. They're both employer's lawyers whose practice includes fighting unions and union organizing. They're not representing your interests (the employer/contractor), they're representing the interests of the employer. It's in their interest to encourage *all* workers to settle for a bad deal, so that if one or two of you try to demand what you deserve, they can replace you with someone more subservient and cheaper. Here's a Google search for those 2 firms:</p><p>Aiken Gump</p><p><a href="http://www.akingump.com/services/ServiceDetail.aspx?service=267" title="akingump.com">http://www.akingump.com/services/ServiceDetail.aspx?service=267</a> [akingump.com]</p><p>Labor-Management Relations</p><p>The firm regularly provides advice and assistance to employers in union organizing campaigns and elections, including representation before the NLRB in unit determination hearings; negotiation and administration of collective bargaining agreements; arbitration and litigation of disputes under existing contracts; counseling and litigation in connection with strikes and related issues, such as striker replacement and strike-related violence; and the defense of unfair labor practice charges before the National Labor Relations Board. For those clients needing such assistance, we provide intensive training programs for supervisors on their obligations in union organizing campaigns or similar critical aspects of dealing with employees.</p><p>Fowler White Boggs</p><p><a href="http://www.fowlerwhite.com/what-129.html" title="fowlerwhite.com">http://www.fowlerwhite.com/what-129.html</a> [fowlerwhite.com]</p><p>Labor Law/Unions</p><p>For decades our lawyers have successfully worked with employers to remain union-free.  Our experience includes winning union elections and unfair labor practices cases before the National Labor Relations Board and similar local agencies.  In fact, one of our senior lawyers began his career as a  litigator for the NLRB.  We have also successfully litigated union organizing, picketing, boycotting and violence injunction cases to aggressively defend the rights of employers, employees, and the public.  We have negotiated favorable union contracts and arbitrated union grievances under union collective bargaining agreements.  Our lawyers frequently advise and work with employers and their managers regarding compliance programs under various labor laws.  Our lawyers have been recognized as contributing editors to the leading treatise on traditional labor law, &ldquo;The Developing Labor Law.&rdquo;</p><p>We have represented multiple national and local clients in labor law issues including:</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * Wal-Mart</p><p>(/end quote)</p><p>Wall-Mart! They're a good candidate for the worst employer in America. Do you want to work at Wall-Mart wages?</p><p>If Fisher had instead spoken to lawyers from a kick-ass law firm that represents the rights and interests of employers/contractors <a href="http://www.vladeck.com/" title="vladeck.com">http://www.vladeck.com/</a> [vladeck.com] she would have gotten a completely different story. (Even the corporate executives go to Vladek when they get screwed.)</p><p>IANAL but I've worked as an employee and as a contractor, and I've talked to a lot of lawyers (on both sides) about that situation. It sounds to me like Dear Annie's case is a classic example of subterfuge around the employment laws, where a company converts an employee to a contractor with more responsibility (but not management responsibility), more hours and less pay. State and Federal labor agencies (now that they have GWB's foot off their neck) see through these sham agreements. They can and have sued employers for years back to pay the overtime that the employee should have been getting, and (I think) they may be responsible for your Social Security and tax contributions as well. A lawyer would know better than me.</p><p>Of course the fundamental problem is that, if an employer wants to convert you from an employee to a contractor, even if they do it legally, you must (1) Have a good negotiating position, which may be difficult in these times of recession. (2) Know how to negotiate, which is a difficult skill, but if you were skilled at negotiating you may be able to overcome (1).</p><p>It's too bad you don't have a union or professional organization to help you. The National Writers Union, for example, used to provide "contract advisors" to help people negotiate contracts, and routinely got them a much better deal than they would have by themselves.</p><p>I realize the problems and corruption of unions, but the American working class from the end of World War II to the election of Ronald Reagan was the wealthiest, home-owning, college-going working class the world has ever seen, and a lot of that was due to their unions. Now the unions are mostly gone, and we have the most unequal distribution of income of any of the wealthy countries in the world (Gini=0.37). All those suckers with their copies of Ayn Rand thought that they were the elite geniuses, they don't need unions. Now the house of cards has crashed and they're finding out that they're not so smart and they can't make that much money any more either.</p><p>The best advice I ever heard was Pete Seeger's Talking Union <a href="http://www.metrolyrics.com/talking-union-lyrics-pete-seeger.html" title="metrolyrics.com">http://www.metrolyrics.com/talking-union-lyrics-pete-seeger.html</a> [metrolyrics.com] "If you want better wages let me tell you what to do, you got to get all the workers in the shop with you."</p><p>You can't get a living wage without organizing, and you especially can't get a living wage by following Dear Annie.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ask Fortune magazine about your rights as an employee/contractor ?
Why do n't you ask Fritz the Cat about your rights as a mouse ?
http : //www.saskndp.com/history/mouseland.php3 [ saskndp.com ] Fortune magazine makes no secret about representing the interests of businesses and employers .
Their answer to you is going to be , " Be glad you have a job , do what your boss says , you miserable groveling wretch .
" ( Journalism education ) I 've always said that you can tell whether a journalist is any good by seeing who they interview .
Do they interview people from all sides of the issue , or do they just get the people they agree with and tailor the quotes to support the argument they want to make ?
Anne Fisher http : //money.cnn.com/2009/11/25/news/economy/overtime.oncall.fortune/index.htm [ cnn.com ] interviewed two lawyers , one from Aiken Gump and the other from Fowler White Boggs .
They 're both employer 's lawyers whose practice includes fighting unions and union organizing .
They 're not representing your interests ( the employer/contractor ) , they 're representing the interests of the employer .
It 's in their interest to encourage * all * workers to settle for a bad deal , so that if one or two of you try to demand what you deserve , they can replace you with someone more subservient and cheaper .
Here 's a Google search for those 2 firms : Aiken Gumphttp : //www.akingump.com/services/ServiceDetail.aspx ? service = 267 [ akingump.com ] Labor-Management RelationsThe firm regularly provides advice and assistance to employers in union organizing campaigns and elections , including representation before the NLRB in unit determination hearings ; negotiation and administration of collective bargaining agreements ; arbitration and litigation of disputes under existing contracts ; counseling and litigation in connection with strikes and related issues , such as striker replacement and strike-related violence ; and the defense of unfair labor practice charges before the National Labor Relations Board .
For those clients needing such assistance , we provide intensive training programs for supervisors on their obligations in union organizing campaigns or similar critical aspects of dealing with employees.Fowler White Boggshttp : //www.fowlerwhite.com/what-129.html [ fowlerwhite.com ] Labor Law/UnionsFor decades our lawyers have successfully worked with employers to remain union-free .
Our experience includes winning union elections and unfair labor practices cases before the National Labor Relations Board and similar local agencies .
In fact , one of our senior lawyers began his career as a litigator for the NLRB .
We have also successfully litigated union organizing , picketing , boycotting and violence injunction cases to aggressively defend the rights of employers , employees , and the public .
We have negotiated favorable union contracts and arbitrated union grievances under union collective bargaining agreements .
Our lawyers frequently advise and work with employers and their managers regarding compliance programs under various labor laws .
Our lawyers have been recognized as contributing editors to the leading treatise on traditional labor law ,    The Developing Labor Law.    We have represented multiple national and local clients in labor law issues including :         * Wal-Mart ( /end quote ) Wall-Mart !
They 're a good candidate for the worst employer in America .
Do you want to work at Wall-Mart wages ? If Fisher had instead spoken to lawyers from a kick-ass law firm that represents the rights and interests of employers/contractors http : //www.vladeck.com/ [ vladeck.com ] she would have gotten a completely different story .
( Even the corporate executives go to Vladek when they get screwed .
) IANAL but I 've worked as an employee and as a contractor , and I 've talked to a lot of lawyers ( on both sides ) about that situation .
It sounds to me like Dear Annie 's case is a classic example of subterfuge around the employment laws , where a company converts an employee to a contractor with more responsibility ( but not management responsibility ) , more hours and less pay .
State and Federal labor agencies ( now that they have GWB 's foot off their neck ) see through these sham agreements .
They can and have sued employers for years back to pay the overtime that the employee should have been getting , and ( I think ) they may be responsible for your Social Security and tax contributions as well .
A lawyer would know better than me.Of course the fundamental problem is that , if an employer wants to convert you from an employee to a contractor , even if they do it legally , you must ( 1 ) Have a good negotiating position , which may be difficult in these times of recession .
( 2 ) Know how to negotiate , which is a difficult skill , but if you were skilled at negotiating you may be able to overcome ( 1 ) .It 's too bad you do n't have a union or professional organization to help you .
The National Writers Union , for example , used to provide " contract advisors " to help people negotiate contracts , and routinely got them a much better deal than they would have by themselves.I realize the problems and corruption of unions , but the American working class from the end of World War II to the election of Ronald Reagan was the wealthiest , home-owning , college-going working class the world has ever seen , and a lot of that was due to their unions .
Now the unions are mostly gone , and we have the most unequal distribution of income of any of the wealthy countries in the world ( Gini = 0.37 ) .
All those suckers with their copies of Ayn Rand thought that they were the elite geniuses , they do n't need unions .
Now the house of cards has crashed and they 're finding out that they 're not so smart and they ca n't make that much money any more either.The best advice I ever heard was Pete Seeger 's Talking Union http : //www.metrolyrics.com/talking-union-lyrics-pete-seeger.html [ metrolyrics.com ] " If you want better wages let me tell you what to do , you got to get all the workers in the shop with you .
" You ca n't get a living wage without organizing , and you especially ca n't get a living wage by following Dear Annie .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ask Fortune magazine about your rights as an employee/contractor?
Why don't you ask Fritz the Cat about your rights as a mouse?
http://www.saskndp.com/history/mouseland.php3 [saskndp.com]Fortune magazine makes no secret about representing the interests of businesses and employers.
Their answer to you is going to be, "Be glad you have a job, do what your boss says, you miserable groveling wretch.
"(Journalism education) I've always said that you can tell whether a journalist is any good by seeing who they interview.
Do they interview people from all sides of the issue, or do they just get the people they agree with and tailor the quotes to support the argument they want to make?
Anne Fisher http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/25/news/economy/overtime.oncall.fortune/index.htm [cnn.com] interviewed two lawyers, one from Aiken Gump and the other from Fowler White Boggs.
They're both employer's lawyers whose practice includes fighting unions and union organizing.
They're not representing your interests (the employer/contractor), they're representing the interests of the employer.
It's in their interest to encourage *all* workers to settle for a bad deal, so that if one or two of you try to demand what you deserve, they can replace you with someone more subservient and cheaper.
Here's a Google search for those 2 firms:Aiken Gumphttp://www.akingump.com/services/ServiceDetail.aspx?service=267 [akingump.com]Labor-Management RelationsThe firm regularly provides advice and assistance to employers in union organizing campaigns and elections, including representation before the NLRB in unit determination hearings; negotiation and administration of collective bargaining agreements; arbitration and litigation of disputes under existing contracts; counseling and litigation in connection with strikes and related issues, such as striker replacement and strike-related violence; and the defense of unfair labor practice charges before the National Labor Relations Board.
For those clients needing such assistance, we provide intensive training programs for supervisors on their obligations in union organizing campaigns or similar critical aspects of dealing with employees.Fowler White Boggshttp://www.fowlerwhite.com/what-129.html [fowlerwhite.com]Labor Law/UnionsFor decades our lawyers have successfully worked with employers to remain union-free.
Our experience includes winning union elections and unfair labor practices cases before the National Labor Relations Board and similar local agencies.
In fact, one of our senior lawyers began his career as a  litigator for the NLRB.
We have also successfully litigated union organizing, picketing, boycotting and violence injunction cases to aggressively defend the rights of employers, employees, and the public.
We have negotiated favorable union contracts and arbitrated union grievances under union collective bargaining agreements.
Our lawyers frequently advise and work with employers and their managers regarding compliance programs under various labor laws.
Our lawyers have been recognized as contributing editors to the leading treatise on traditional labor law, “The Developing Labor Law.”We have represented multiple national and local clients in labor law issues including:
        * Wal-Mart(/end quote)Wall-Mart!
They're a good candidate for the worst employer in America.
Do you want to work at Wall-Mart wages?If Fisher had instead spoken to lawyers from a kick-ass law firm that represents the rights and interests of employers/contractors http://www.vladeck.com/ [vladeck.com] she would have gotten a completely different story.
(Even the corporate executives go to Vladek when they get screwed.
)IANAL but I've worked as an employee and as a contractor, and I've talked to a lot of lawyers (on both sides) about that situation.
It sounds to me like Dear Annie's case is a classic example of subterfuge around the employment laws, where a company converts an employee to a contractor with more responsibility (but not management responsibility), more hours and less pay.
State and Federal labor agencies (now that they have GWB's foot off their neck) see through these sham agreements.
They can and have sued employers for years back to pay the overtime that the employee should have been getting, and (I think) they may be responsible for your Social Security and tax contributions as well.
A lawyer would know better than me.Of course the fundamental problem is that, if an employer wants to convert you from an employee to a contractor, even if they do it legally, you must (1) Have a good negotiating position, which may be difficult in these times of recession.
(2) Know how to negotiate, which is a difficult skill, but if you were skilled at negotiating you may be able to overcome (1).It's too bad you don't have a union or professional organization to help you.
The National Writers Union, for example, used to provide "contract advisors" to help people negotiate contracts, and routinely got them a much better deal than they would have by themselves.I realize the problems and corruption of unions, but the American working class from the end of World War II to the election of Ronald Reagan was the wealthiest, home-owning, college-going working class the world has ever seen, and a lot of that was due to their unions.
Now the unions are mostly gone, and we have the most unequal distribution of income of any of the wealthy countries in the world (Gini=0.37).
All those suckers with their copies of Ayn Rand thought that they were the elite geniuses, they don't need unions.
Now the house of cards has crashed and they're finding out that they're not so smart and they can't make that much money any more either.The best advice I ever heard was Pete Seeger's Talking Union http://www.metrolyrics.com/talking-union-lyrics-pete-seeger.html [metrolyrics.com] "If you want better wages let me tell you what to do, you got to get all the workers in the shop with you.
"You can't get a living wage without organizing, and you especially can't get a living wage by following Dear Annie.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275182</id>
	<title>Re:Personally I believe it depends upon if you're.</title>
	<author>QuasiEvil</author>
	<datestamp>1259577660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Salaried doesn't mean indentured servitude, though.  Yes, I agree, if it was part of your initial employment that you will be on call for 24x7 support, you'd better figure that into your salary and just shut your piehole.  However, many of us either a) used to be compensated separately for on call time or b) used to not have a 24x7 system, and were charged with one while maintaining the same position in the company.  I'm actually at the unique intersection of both of these.  I used to not have any 24x7s when I took this job, and once I agreed to take one on, there was compensation for disrupting my life for the weeks I got stuck with the pager (1 hour comp for every 8 hours on call, plus 1 for 1 recall time)</p><p>About two months ago, we all just got totally boned by a policy shift.  Now they expect me to do it for nothing, and where I work, that means I'm no more than 15 minutes from being able to log in and I'm dead stone sober (meaning, a BAC of as close to 0.00\% as you can get...).   The only upside is that I get a minimum of 4 hours comp for every call.  It certainly hasn't encouraged me to fix any bugs, since I enjoy the extra vacation and they're usually quite easy to deal with.</p><p>Ever seen the Dilbert where the boss offers an incentive payment for every bug fixed?  Wally wanders off saying something about writing himself a new minivan.  That's basically what they've created around here, and pissed us all off in the process.  It's certainly not an incentive to make the pager quiet, just to make the bugs require minimal attention.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Salaried does n't mean indentured servitude , though .
Yes , I agree , if it was part of your initial employment that you will be on call for 24x7 support , you 'd better figure that into your salary and just shut your piehole .
However , many of us either a ) used to be compensated separately for on call time or b ) used to not have a 24x7 system , and were charged with one while maintaining the same position in the company .
I 'm actually at the unique intersection of both of these .
I used to not have any 24x7s when I took this job , and once I agreed to take one on , there was compensation for disrupting my life for the weeks I got stuck with the pager ( 1 hour comp for every 8 hours on call , plus 1 for 1 recall time ) About two months ago , we all just got totally boned by a policy shift .
Now they expect me to do it for nothing , and where I work , that means I 'm no more than 15 minutes from being able to log in and I 'm dead stone sober ( meaning , a BAC of as close to 0.00 \ % as you can get... ) .
The only upside is that I get a minimum of 4 hours comp for every call .
It certainly has n't encouraged me to fix any bugs , since I enjoy the extra vacation and they 're usually quite easy to deal with.Ever seen the Dilbert where the boss offers an incentive payment for every bug fixed ?
Wally wanders off saying something about writing himself a new minivan .
That 's basically what they 've created around here , and pissed us all off in the process .
It 's certainly not an incentive to make the pager quiet , just to make the bugs require minimal attention .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Salaried doesn't mean indentured servitude, though.
Yes, I agree, if it was part of your initial employment that you will be on call for 24x7 support, you'd better figure that into your salary and just shut your piehole.
However, many of us either a) used to be compensated separately for on call time or b) used to not have a 24x7 system, and were charged with one while maintaining the same position in the company.
I'm actually at the unique intersection of both of these.
I used to not have any 24x7s when I took this job, and once I agreed to take one on, there was compensation for disrupting my life for the weeks I got stuck with the pager (1 hour comp for every 8 hours on call, plus 1 for 1 recall time)About two months ago, we all just got totally boned by a policy shift.
Now they expect me to do it for nothing, and where I work, that means I'm no more than 15 minutes from being able to log in and I'm dead stone sober (meaning, a BAC of as close to 0.00\% as you can get...).
The only upside is that I get a minimum of 4 hours comp for every call.
It certainly hasn't encouraged me to fix any bugs, since I enjoy the extra vacation and they're usually quite easy to deal with.Ever seen the Dilbert where the boss offers an incentive payment for every bug fixed?
Wally wanders off saying something about writing himself a new minivan.
That's basically what they've created around here, and pissed us all off in the process.
It's certainly not an incentive to make the pager quiet, just to make the bugs require minimal attention.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273272</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276062</id>
	<title>Xphox</title>
	<author>Xphox</author>
	<datestamp>1259580720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm the manager of a Network Operations Center and my guys work 24x7x365 rotating shifts.

They are entitled to the following:
Afternoon shift premium
Evening shift premium
$100 per week to carry the pager (two week cycles)

--

In the event that you miss a page you forfeit your two weeks on call bonus ($200).  This goes to the guy who had to take your call.  I have a back-up on call who doesn't carry the pager who is available via personal cell / home phone to pick up slack if needed.  On top of the bonus you also receive your hourly rate with a minimum guarantee of 1 hours pay.

I try to be fair with on call duties.  If you can't carry the pager it's your responsibility to find someone else on the team to help you out, or risk the chance of loosing your pay and if it's a repeat offended being written up.

I find most of my guys don't have any issue carrying the pager because I cycle though 8 guys so your only on call two weeks every other month.

If you treat your team well they will bend over backwards for you when you need them most.  If you don't pay them, then don't cry when they aren't there to pick up the page and it you yourself who has to bend over backwards.

It's common sense!  Family, and free time is more important to me.  So I pay my team.  Of course should the on call need me I'm always available, but I'm a manager and that's my job.  I do not get paid to be on call, however I do get to take time off in lieu (assuming it's okay for me to take the day off - work is slow, etc...) or choose to pay out my OT on my next pay.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm the manager of a Network Operations Center and my guys work 24x7x365 rotating shifts .
They are entitled to the following : Afternoon shift premium Evening shift premium $ 100 per week to carry the pager ( two week cycles ) -- In the event that you miss a page you forfeit your two weeks on call bonus ( $ 200 ) .
This goes to the guy who had to take your call .
I have a back-up on call who does n't carry the pager who is available via personal cell / home phone to pick up slack if needed .
On top of the bonus you also receive your hourly rate with a minimum guarantee of 1 hours pay .
I try to be fair with on call duties .
If you ca n't carry the pager it 's your responsibility to find someone else on the team to help you out , or risk the chance of loosing your pay and if it 's a repeat offended being written up .
I find most of my guys do n't have any issue carrying the pager because I cycle though 8 guys so your only on call two weeks every other month .
If you treat your team well they will bend over backwards for you when you need them most .
If you do n't pay them , then do n't cry when they are n't there to pick up the page and it you yourself who has to bend over backwards .
It 's common sense !
Family , and free time is more important to me .
So I pay my team .
Of course should the on call need me I 'm always available , but I 'm a manager and that 's my job .
I do not get paid to be on call , however I do get to take time off in lieu ( assuming it 's okay for me to take the day off - work is slow , etc... ) or choose to pay out my OT on my next pay .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm the manager of a Network Operations Center and my guys work 24x7x365 rotating shifts.
They are entitled to the following:
Afternoon shift premium
Evening shift premium
$100 per week to carry the pager (two week cycles)

--

In the event that you miss a page you forfeit your two weeks on call bonus ($200).
This goes to the guy who had to take your call.
I have a back-up on call who doesn't carry the pager who is available via personal cell / home phone to pick up slack if needed.
On top of the bonus you also receive your hourly rate with a minimum guarantee of 1 hours pay.
I try to be fair with on call duties.
If you can't carry the pager it's your responsibility to find someone else on the team to help you out, or risk the chance of loosing your pay and if it's a repeat offended being written up.
I find most of my guys don't have any issue carrying the pager because I cycle though 8 guys so your only on call two weeks every other month.
If you treat your team well they will bend over backwards for you when you need them most.
If you don't pay them, then don't cry when they aren't there to pick up the page and it you yourself who has to bend over backwards.
It's common sense!
Family, and free time is more important to me.
So I pay my team.
Of course should the on call need me I'm always available, but I'm a manager and that's my job.
I do not get paid to be on call, however I do get to take time off in lieu (assuming it's okay for me to take the day off - work is slow, etc...) or choose to pay out my OT on my next pay.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273646</id>
	<title>Re:Firefighting</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259571660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I know of a large-ish department in New England with professional (and unionized) firefighters, whose schedule is two 10 hour days (for example, Monday and Tuesday), followed by two 14 hour evenings (Wednesday and Thursdays), followed by four days off, but on the first two of the days off (Friday and Saturday), they are on call \_voluntarily\_ and get first crack at being coming in on a per-incident basis with a minimum of two hours' pay at overtime (1.5X) rate. This way, those who want to pick up a few extra bucks can do so, and those who had a big outing with the family planned, or whatever, can do so as well. (Yes, there ARE seven days in a week, so eventually each of the four "shifts" gets a four day weekend anyway). And no, they don't just sit around the station playing cards - they have equipment maintenance to do, as well as various training activities, etc.</p><p>Back in the late 80's and early 90's, DEC used to pay their on-call (beepered) field service techs one hour's pay for each 8 hour shift they were on call, with a two hour minimum if they got called in for a problem (and at OT rate, probably). I don't know if that survived the Compaq debacle, or what HP's current policies are, however.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I know of a large-ish department in New England with professional ( and unionized ) firefighters , whose schedule is two 10 hour days ( for example , Monday and Tuesday ) , followed by two 14 hour evenings ( Wednesday and Thursdays ) , followed by four days off , but on the first two of the days off ( Friday and Saturday ) , they are on call \ _voluntarily \ _ and get first crack at being coming in on a per-incident basis with a minimum of two hours ' pay at overtime ( 1.5X ) rate .
This way , those who want to pick up a few extra bucks can do so , and those who had a big outing with the family planned , or whatever , can do so as well .
( Yes , there ARE seven days in a week , so eventually each of the four " shifts " gets a four day weekend anyway ) .
And no , they do n't just sit around the station playing cards - they have equipment maintenance to do , as well as various training activities , etc.Back in the late 80 's and early 90 's , DEC used to pay their on-call ( beepered ) field service techs one hour 's pay for each 8 hour shift they were on call , with a two hour minimum if they got called in for a problem ( and at OT rate , probably ) .
I do n't know if that survived the Compaq debacle , or what HP 's current policies are , however .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know of a large-ish department in New England with professional (and unionized) firefighters, whose schedule is two 10 hour days (for example, Monday and Tuesday), followed by two 14 hour evenings (Wednesday and Thursdays), followed by four days off, but on the first two of the days off (Friday and Saturday), they are on call \_voluntarily\_ and get first crack at being coming in on a per-incident basis with a minimum of two hours' pay at overtime (1.5X) rate.
This way, those who want to pick up a few extra bucks can do so, and those who had a big outing with the family planned, or whatever, can do so as well.
(Yes, there ARE seven days in a week, so eventually each of the four "shifts" gets a four day weekend anyway).
And no, they don't just sit around the station playing cards - they have equipment maintenance to do, as well as various training activities, etc.Back in the late 80's and early 90's, DEC used to pay their on-call (beepered) field service techs one hour's pay for each 8 hour shift they were on call, with a two hour minimum if they got called in for a problem (and at OT rate, probably).
I don't know if that survived the Compaq debacle, or what HP's current policies are, however.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273322</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274318</id>
	<title>It also depends on a reliability factor</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259574060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are many places where cell phones and pagers don't work.  If an employee spends their off time at a concert, a sporting event, or on a boat, they may not be in a position to respond, even IF they get the message.  If you want a near-100\% chance of getting them to immediately respond, they are essentially under house arrest.  For that, they should be paid a "standby" rate per hour with a higher rate for actually responding.  For less compensation, we can discuss diminished expectations of availability.</p><p>I have had to explain this to several bosses, usually in defense of my own staff.  In the world of operations, you can't set specific hours of coverage without specific compensation.   Notice management has their own version of after hours coverage.  They all have Blackberries and they respond on a "best efforts" basis - without compensation.  Not many tears are shed if it takes a few hours to contact a manager.   Corporate hypocrisy sets in when management expects better off-hours responsiveness than they are willing to provide themselves.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are many places where cell phones and pagers do n't work .
If an employee spends their off time at a concert , a sporting event , or on a boat , they may not be in a position to respond , even IF they get the message .
If you want a near-100 \ % chance of getting them to immediately respond , they are essentially under house arrest .
For that , they should be paid a " standby " rate per hour with a higher rate for actually responding .
For less compensation , we can discuss diminished expectations of availability.I have had to explain this to several bosses , usually in defense of my own staff .
In the world of operations , you ca n't set specific hours of coverage without specific compensation .
Notice management has their own version of after hours coverage .
They all have Blackberries and they respond on a " best efforts " basis - without compensation .
Not many tears are shed if it takes a few hours to contact a manager .
Corporate hypocrisy sets in when management expects better off-hours responsiveness than they are willing to provide themselves .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are many places where cell phones and pagers don't work.
If an employee spends their off time at a concert, a sporting event, or on a boat, they may not be in a position to respond, even IF they get the message.
If you want a near-100\% chance of getting them to immediately respond, they are essentially under house arrest.
For that, they should be paid a "standby" rate per hour with a higher rate for actually responding.
For less compensation, we can discuss diminished expectations of availability.I have had to explain this to several bosses, usually in defense of my own staff.
In the world of operations, you can't set specific hours of coverage without specific compensation.
Notice management has their own version of after hours coverage.
They all have Blackberries and they respond on a "best efforts" basis - without compensation.
Not many tears are shed if it takes a few hours to contact a manager.
Corporate hypocrisy sets in when management expects better off-hours responsiveness than they are willing to provide themselves.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273272</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274024</id>
	<title>Employee vs. Contractor</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259572980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>More problematic to me is the fact that they converted a full-time employee to an independent contractor without benefits.  This person should take a close look at the definition of "employee" vs. "contractor" and possibly call the IRS and/or the state dept. that handles labor issues.  If this employer has the kind of control over the "contractor" that it sounds like, they're still an "employee" and should be treated as such.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>More problematic to me is the fact that they converted a full-time employee to an independent contractor without benefits .
This person should take a close look at the definition of " employee " vs. " contractor " and possibly call the IRS and/or the state dept .
that handles labor issues .
If this employer has the kind of control over the " contractor " that it sounds like , they 're still an " employee " and should be treated as such .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>More problematic to me is the fact that they converted a full-time employee to an independent contractor without benefits.
This person should take a close look at the definition of "employee" vs. "contractor" and possibly call the IRS and/or the state dept.
that handles labor issues.
If this employer has the kind of control over the "contractor" that it sounds like, they're still an "employee" and should be treated as such.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273538</id>
	<title>Re:Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>FictionPimp</author>
	<datestamp>1259614620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I was on call I got $50.00 just to answer the phone. Then I got an hourly rate to work the issue.</p><p>No calls, no money. Got 3 calls that each took a hour. I made $150 + 3 hours.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was on call I got $ 50.00 just to answer the phone .
Then I got an hourly rate to work the issue.No calls , no money .
Got 3 calls that each took a hour .
I made $ 150 + 3 hours .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was on call I got $50.00 just to answer the phone.
Then I got an hourly rate to work the issue.No calls, no money.
Got 3 calls that each took a hour.
I made $150 + 3 hours.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278144</id>
	<title>My on-call stories</title>
	<author>Punk Walrus</author>
	<datestamp>1259591460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My first on call job I had programming call centers for a major company.  My basic job was manning the hotline during the weekday from 6am-3pm, doing tickets, and whatnot.  The rest was being on call which was shared for a week between 5 people.  Every week, there was one primary, and one alternate.  The primary from the following week was the alternate for the next week, and so on.  It came out that you were only on call 2 out of 5 weeks, and that was fine.</p><p>Until the politics came into play.</p><p>After about a year, one person "graduated" to a new position where he wouldn't have to be on call.  Another person left the company, and was never really replaced.  So now I was on call 2/3 weeks.  In theory.  The other two people were very lazy.  One of them was some Orthodox religious person who seemed to have major holidays and festivals about twice a month where she could not be on call and she'd "trade weeks" with one of us, but never really did more than say she'd take "next week, for sure."  The other was a kind of a nightclub-hopping single "ladies man" who dressed sharp and partied hard.  Even when he was on call, he couldn't hear the pager or would take hours to reply.</p><p>My boss just rolled over, because she was afraid they'd pull some EOE stint, and she was sort of passing the time until she left on maternity leave.  So I was unofficially "on call" 24x7 for about half a year.  I got paged about 2-3 times a night, on average, with jobs that went from a 5-10 minute fix to some that lasted many hours.  I got no extra pay, and when review time came around, I got a 3\% raise.  I was making about a third of the wages of someone else in my position, so she pulled the "well, you're not perfect enough for industry standard" card.  My response was to quit.</p><p>For up to a year afterward, I still got a few calls a month from the former clients, vendors, and business partners.  Most knew I didn't work there anymore, but, "Pleeeeeaaaaase, can you fix this? No one is answering the pages!"  No.</p><p>In other jobs, I was compensated with unofficial "comp time," and sometimes a cash bonus as a kind of "thanks for covering our ass."  Comp time works like, "You worked all night fixing that?"  Pfft, don't come in tomorrow, or "I am adding an extra vacation day you can use in any way you see fit later."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My first on call job I had programming call centers for a major company .
My basic job was manning the hotline during the weekday from 6am-3pm , doing tickets , and whatnot .
The rest was being on call which was shared for a week between 5 people .
Every week , there was one primary , and one alternate .
The primary from the following week was the alternate for the next week , and so on .
It came out that you were only on call 2 out of 5 weeks , and that was fine.Until the politics came into play.After about a year , one person " graduated " to a new position where he would n't have to be on call .
Another person left the company , and was never really replaced .
So now I was on call 2/3 weeks .
In theory .
The other two people were very lazy .
One of them was some Orthodox religious person who seemed to have major holidays and festivals about twice a month where she could not be on call and she 'd " trade weeks " with one of us , but never really did more than say she 'd take " next week , for sure .
" The other was a kind of a nightclub-hopping single " ladies man " who dressed sharp and partied hard .
Even when he was on call , he could n't hear the pager or would take hours to reply.My boss just rolled over , because she was afraid they 'd pull some EOE stint , and she was sort of passing the time until she left on maternity leave .
So I was unofficially " on call " 24x7 for about half a year .
I got paged about 2-3 times a night , on average , with jobs that went from a 5-10 minute fix to some that lasted many hours .
I got no extra pay , and when review time came around , I got a 3 \ % raise .
I was making about a third of the wages of someone else in my position , so she pulled the " well , you 're not perfect enough for industry standard " card .
My response was to quit.For up to a year afterward , I still got a few calls a month from the former clients , vendors , and business partners .
Most knew I did n't work there anymore , but , " Pleeeeeaaaaase , can you fix this ?
No one is answering the pages !
" No.In other jobs , I was compensated with unofficial " comp time , " and sometimes a cash bonus as a kind of " thanks for covering our ass .
" Comp time works like , " You worked all night fixing that ?
" Pfft , do n't come in tomorrow , or " I am adding an extra vacation day you can use in any way you see fit later .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My first on call job I had programming call centers for a major company.
My basic job was manning the hotline during the weekday from 6am-3pm, doing tickets, and whatnot.
The rest was being on call which was shared for a week between 5 people.
Every week, there was one primary, and one alternate.
The primary from the following week was the alternate for the next week, and so on.
It came out that you were only on call 2 out of 5 weeks, and that was fine.Until the politics came into play.After about a year, one person "graduated" to a new position where he wouldn't have to be on call.
Another person left the company, and was never really replaced.
So now I was on call 2/3 weeks.
In theory.
The other two people were very lazy.
One of them was some Orthodox religious person who seemed to have major holidays and festivals about twice a month where she could not be on call and she'd "trade weeks" with one of us, but never really did more than say she'd take "next week, for sure.
"  The other was a kind of a nightclub-hopping single "ladies man" who dressed sharp and partied hard.
Even when he was on call, he couldn't hear the pager or would take hours to reply.My boss just rolled over, because she was afraid they'd pull some EOE stint, and she was sort of passing the time until she left on maternity leave.
So I was unofficially "on call" 24x7 for about half a year.
I got paged about 2-3 times a night, on average, with jobs that went from a 5-10 minute fix to some that lasted many hours.
I got no extra pay, and when review time came around, I got a 3\% raise.
I was making about a third of the wages of someone else in my position, so she pulled the "well, you're not perfect enough for industry standard" card.
My response was to quit.For up to a year afterward, I still got a few calls a month from the former clients, vendors, and business partners.
Most knew I didn't work there anymore, but, "Pleeeeeaaaaase, can you fix this?
No one is answering the pages!
"  No.In other jobs, I was compensated with unofficial "comp time," and sometimes a cash bonus as a kind of "thanks for covering our ass.
"  Comp time works like, "You worked all night fixing that?
"  Pfft, don't come in tomorrow, or "I am adding an extra vacation day you can use in any way you see fit later.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273408</id>
	<title>Fuck...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259614200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>a BSD ;over other</htmltext>
<tokenext>a BSD ; over other</tokentext>
<sentencetext>a BSD ;over other</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30277594</id>
	<title>On call</title>
	<author>raind</author>
	<datestamp>1259587500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes you should be paid. Or otherwise compensated.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes you should be paid .
Or otherwise compensated .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes you should be paid.
Or otherwise compensated.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276294</id>
	<title>You are giving extra hours right?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259581500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Being on call all time is a nightmare. You can't even sleep (or do your own pleasure) without worrying someone might call any minute, even a wrong number or a bored friend who had nothing better to do. I made it a rule to be paid OT or else compensate from my 40 hours. Now as for individual webmaster, I guess there should be guaranteed uptime and maximum time to attend to call, and if it's not something of webmasters fault, then he should be paid ever higher than regular hour, for taking of his personal time</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Being on call all time is a nightmare .
You ca n't even sleep ( or do your own pleasure ) without worrying someone might call any minute , even a wrong number or a bored friend who had nothing better to do .
I made it a rule to be paid OT or else compensate from my 40 hours .
Now as for individual webmaster , I guess there should be guaranteed uptime and maximum time to attend to call , and if it 's not something of webmasters fault , then he should be paid ever higher than regular hour , for taking of his personal time</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Being on call all time is a nightmare.
You can't even sleep (or do your own pleasure) without worrying someone might call any minute, even a wrong number or a bored friend who had nothing better to do.
I made it a rule to be paid OT or else compensate from my 40 hours.
Now as for individual webmaster, I guess there should be guaranteed uptime and maximum time to attend to call, and if it's not something of webmasters fault, then he should be paid ever higher than regular hour, for taking of his personal time</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274344</id>
	<title>Re:Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>lophophore</author>
	<datestamp>1259574120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Back in the day, DEC (RIP) would pay us salaried engineers 1 hour of pay rate for every 8 hours of standby.  If you were on call 24x7, you would get paid for 7 days instead of 5.  Then, if you had to go in to the office, there was $100 for that.</p><p>People in my group were lined up to carry the on-call pager.</p><p>I had another job, where the on-call pager was a two-way type, and it would acknowledge the page.  There was no on-call pay there.  I would put that pager into a metal ammo can when I got home from work.  Curiously, it could not receive (or acknowledge) pages while in the ammo can.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Back in the day , DEC ( RIP ) would pay us salaried engineers 1 hour of pay rate for every 8 hours of standby .
If you were on call 24x7 , you would get paid for 7 days instead of 5 .
Then , if you had to go in to the office , there was $ 100 for that.People in my group were lined up to carry the on-call pager.I had another job , where the on-call pager was a two-way type , and it would acknowledge the page .
There was no on-call pay there .
I would put that pager into a metal ammo can when I got home from work .
Curiously , it could not receive ( or acknowledge ) pages while in the ammo can .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back in the day, DEC (RIP) would pay us salaried engineers 1 hour of pay rate for every 8 hours of standby.
If you were on call 24x7, you would get paid for 7 days instead of 5.
Then, if you had to go in to the office, there was $100 for that.People in my group were lined up to carry the on-call pager.I had another job, where the on-call pager was a two-way type, and it would acknowledge the page.
There was no on-call pay there.
I would put that pager into a metal ammo can when I got home from work.
Curiously, it could not receive (or acknowledge) pages while in the ammo can.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273584</id>
	<title>Depends on how the employer values downtime</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259614740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If it's important enough to wake me up in the middle of the night or keep me away from my family during dinner, it should be important enough to pay for.<br>If my employer doesn't value my time away from work enough to compensate me, it can wait until morning.</p><p>I know the economy is the way it is, and it rough to take a principled stand, but nothing lasts forever. Besides, if your employer wants you to work for free, they are already giving you a not so subtle hint about how much they value you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If it 's important enough to wake me up in the middle of the night or keep me away from my family during dinner , it should be important enough to pay for.If my employer does n't value my time away from work enough to compensate me , it can wait until morning.I know the economy is the way it is , and it rough to take a principled stand , but nothing lasts forever .
Besides , if your employer wants you to work for free , they are already giving you a not so subtle hint about how much they value you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If it's important enough to wake me up in the middle of the night or keep me away from my family during dinner, it should be important enough to pay for.If my employer doesn't value my time away from work enough to compensate me, it can wait until morning.I know the economy is the way it is, and it rough to take a principled stand, but nothing lasts forever.
Besides, if your employer wants you to work for free, they are already giving you a not so subtle hint about how much they value you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276780</id>
	<title>It depends on your refernce point</title>
	<author>gearloos</author>
	<datestamp>1259583420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I was union. at that time, we were a pool of on call individuals and we were paid handsomely IF we took the call. There was a list based on who had the most overtime. That system worked well. the people who wanted the overtime got it. I am now exempt. there is a pool of 25 of us. We each take a week in turn being on call carrying a call out cell phone and pager with no extra pay but at least you know not to plan an out of town trip for that week. The payoff? I get six figures for my 40 hour work week + 1 week of on call a year. I am very happy with that and I knew that going in. If you don't know that going in, that is a problem... yours if you want to keep your job.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I was union .
at that time , we were a pool of on call individuals and we were paid handsomely IF we took the call .
There was a list based on who had the most overtime .
That system worked well .
the people who wanted the overtime got it .
I am now exempt .
there is a pool of 25 of us .
We each take a week in turn being on call carrying a call out cell phone and pager with no extra pay but at least you know not to plan an out of town trip for that week .
The payoff ?
I get six figures for my 40 hour work week + 1 week of on call a year .
I am very happy with that and I knew that going in .
If you do n't know that going in , that is a problem... yours if you want to keep your job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was union.
at that time, we were a pool of on call individuals and we were paid handsomely IF we took the call.
There was a list based on who had the most overtime.
That system worked well.
the people who wanted the overtime got it.
I am now exempt.
there is a pool of 25 of us.
We each take a week in turn being on call carrying a call out cell phone and pager with no extra pay but at least you know not to plan an out of town trip for that week.
The payoff?
I get six figures for my 40 hour work week + 1 week of on call a year.
I am very happy with that and I knew that going in.
If you don't know that going in, that is a problem... yours if you want to keep your job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275090</id>
	<title>FLSA: Engaged to Wait or Waiting to Engage?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259577240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Check out the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA), in particular definitions of "Waiting to be engaged" versus "Engaged to wait". The former doesn't pay, the latter does. You can anonymously request a suspect employer / "client" of yours be reviewed, and the Feds will show up on their doorstep and ask to see all pay (W2 and Contractors) records for the last 2 years. Then they decide if a contractor who filed the anonymous request for such audit is actually an employee.</p><p>The mere dunning threat of such review along with credit reports is enough, in many cases, to get paid. If you have the patience for the dunning part.</p><p>More on FLSA:</p><p>http://www.google.com/search?q=Fair+Labor+Standards+Act</p><p>Cheers,<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; -dredeyedick</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Check out the Fair Labor Standards Act ( FLSA ) , in particular definitions of " Waiting to be engaged " versus " Engaged to wait " .
The former does n't pay , the latter does .
You can anonymously request a suspect employer / " client " of yours be reviewed , and the Feds will show up on their doorstep and ask to see all pay ( W2 and Contractors ) records for the last 2 years .
Then they decide if a contractor who filed the anonymous request for such audit is actually an employee.The mere dunning threat of such review along with credit reports is enough , in many cases , to get paid .
If you have the patience for the dunning part.More on FLSA : http : //www.google.com/search ? q = Fair + Labor + Standards + ActCheers ,     -dredeyedick</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Check out the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA), in particular definitions of "Waiting to be engaged" versus "Engaged to wait".
The former doesn't pay, the latter does.
You can anonymously request a suspect employer / "client" of yours be reviewed, and the Feds will show up on their doorstep and ask to see all pay (W2 and Contractors) records for the last 2 years.
Then they decide if a contractor who filed the anonymous request for such audit is actually an employee.The mere dunning threat of such review along with credit reports is enough, in many cases, to get paid.
If you have the patience for the dunning part.More on FLSA:http://www.google.com/search?q=Fair+Labor+Standards+ActCheers,
    -dredeyedick</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274780</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259575860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well actually if you have 10,000 customers all at once not being able to access their porn site membership, this is far more important than the death of a single person!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well actually if you have 10,000 customers all at once not being able to access their porn site membership , this is far more important than the death of a single person !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well actually if you have 10,000 customers all at once not being able to access their porn site membership, this is far more important than the death of a single person!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273620</id>
	<title>OnCall Duty</title>
	<author>Rycross</author>
	<datestamp>1259571600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work at a company where we have on-call rotations, with pager and everything.  It was made explicitly clear during the interview and hiring process that this would be expected of me, and that I should consider my salary as reflecting this responsibility.  Given that the salary was a good deal higher than typical jobs in the area, and expectations were stated up-front, I felt that this was fair.</p><p>If you're an independent contractor, then you definitely should be paid for those on-calls.  Its unfathomable to me that someone can expect you to work without proper compensation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work at a company where we have on-call rotations , with pager and everything .
It was made explicitly clear during the interview and hiring process that this would be expected of me , and that I should consider my salary as reflecting this responsibility .
Given that the salary was a good deal higher than typical jobs in the area , and expectations were stated up-front , I felt that this was fair.If you 're an independent contractor , then you definitely should be paid for those on-calls .
Its unfathomable to me that someone can expect you to work without proper compensation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work at a company where we have on-call rotations, with pager and everything.
It was made explicitly clear during the interview and hiring process that this would be expected of me, and that I should consider my salary as reflecting this responsibility.
Given that the salary was a good deal higher than typical jobs in the area, and expectations were stated up-front, I felt that this was fair.If you're an independent contractor, then you definitely should be paid for those on-calls.
Its unfathomable to me that someone can expect you to work without proper compensation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273476</id>
	<title>That's how it is on my job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259614440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have a 40-hr work week, and I'm also part of a rotation amount our team... everyone gets the support cellphone a night a week (once every 7 days)..</p><p>We are paid for this time, even if the phone does not ring at all, but since we can't just go to the movies or have the night off 50 miles away, but the hourly rate is different from our usual salary (about 1/5 of the value). However, if the phone *does* ring, we then get paid as usual overtime (which is anything from 1.0 to 2.5 times the hourly rate, depending on the time of the day and the day of the week), minus the on-call rate (since when we do answer the phone, we're not on standby anymore). The clocks starts when we answer the phone, and ends when the problem is solved, after I hang up the phone or hand it off to the next person, or whoever should be awaken by that problem.</p><p>Everything is computed in 5-minute increments, in case anyone is left wondering.</p><p>I feel, from my experience working on both sides of the table, that this is a fair way of getting reinbursed for our problems. The tricky part of this setup is knowing WHEN to ring the phone, so the standby sysop does not get woken up at 3AM because some random luser filled their shared storage quota with pron while working on the night shift.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a 40-hr work week , and I 'm also part of a rotation amount our team... everyone gets the support cellphone a night a week ( once every 7 days ) ..We are paid for this time , even if the phone does not ring at all , but since we ca n't just go to the movies or have the night off 50 miles away , but the hourly rate is different from our usual salary ( about 1/5 of the value ) .
However , if the phone * does * ring , we then get paid as usual overtime ( which is anything from 1.0 to 2.5 times the hourly rate , depending on the time of the day and the day of the week ) , minus the on-call rate ( since when we do answer the phone , we 're not on standby anymore ) .
The clocks starts when we answer the phone , and ends when the problem is solved , after I hang up the phone or hand it off to the next person , or whoever should be awaken by that problem.Everything is computed in 5-minute increments , in case anyone is left wondering.I feel , from my experience working on both sides of the table , that this is a fair way of getting reinbursed for our problems .
The tricky part of this setup is knowing WHEN to ring the phone , so the standby sysop does not get woken up at 3AM because some random luser filled their shared storage quota with pron while working on the night shift .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a 40-hr work week, and I'm also part of a rotation amount our team... everyone gets the support cellphone a night a week (once every 7 days)..We are paid for this time, even if the phone does not ring at all, but since we can't just go to the movies or have the night off 50 miles away, but the hourly rate is different from our usual salary (about 1/5 of the value).
However, if the phone *does* ring, we then get paid as usual overtime (which is anything from 1.0 to 2.5 times the hourly rate, depending on the time of the day and the day of the week), minus the on-call rate (since when we do answer the phone, we're not on standby anymore).
The clocks starts when we answer the phone, and ends when the problem is solved, after I hang up the phone or hand it off to the next person, or whoever should be awaken by that problem.Everything is computed in 5-minute increments, in case anyone is left wondering.I feel, from my experience working on both sides of the table, that this is a fair way of getting reinbursed for our problems.
The tricky part of this setup is knowing WHEN to ring the phone, so the standby sysop does not get woken up at 3AM because some random luser filled their shared storage quota with pron while working on the night shift.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274378</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>BrookHarty</author>
	<datestamp>1259574300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Its weird how operations groups are classified as IT, when operations work on consumer outages that can cost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines. They tend to pay for on-call, because you have to be on a bridge call within 5 minutes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Its weird how operations groups are classified as IT , when operations work on consumer outages that can cost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines .
They tend to pay for on-call , because you have to be on a bridge call within 5 minutes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Its weird how operations groups are classified as IT, when operations work on consumer outages that can cost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines.
They tend to pay for on-call, because you have to be on a bridge call within 5 minutes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275222</id>
	<title>It's only a problem if you make it that way.</title>
	<author>Crispix</author>
	<datestamp>1259577840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No one can take advantage of you without your permission. If you provide free on-call services, that's because you allow it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No one can take advantage of you without your permission .
If you provide free on-call services , that 's because you allow it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No one can take advantage of you without your permission.
If you provide free on-call services, that's because you allow it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275270</id>
	<title>Cost per incident</title>
	<author>Sludge</author>
	<datestamp>1259578080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you are a contractor, structure your agreement such that maintenance and support requests outside of the SPECIFICALLY DEFINED scope of work are charged on a per incident cost.</p><p>There is a long history (and associated case law) for per-incident support billing.  Get behind that.</p><p>If you are an employee, get your employment expectations in writing.  Do this before you are required to meet those expectations, and ideally in the context of discussing your compensation.</p><p>Chasing an employer for unexpected overtime fees sucks for everybody and gives you a bad reputation.  Be proactive about compensation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you are a contractor , structure your agreement such that maintenance and support requests outside of the SPECIFICALLY DEFINED scope of work are charged on a per incident cost.There is a long history ( and associated case law ) for per-incident support billing .
Get behind that.If you are an employee , get your employment expectations in writing .
Do this before you are required to meet those expectations , and ideally in the context of discussing your compensation.Chasing an employer for unexpected overtime fees sucks for everybody and gives you a bad reputation .
Be proactive about compensation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you are a contractor, structure your agreement such that maintenance and support requests outside of the SPECIFICALLY DEFINED scope of work are charged on a per incident cost.There is a long history (and associated case law) for per-incident support billing.
Get behind that.If you are an employee, get your employment expectations in writing.
Do this before you are required to meet those expectations, and ideally in the context of discussing your compensation.Chasing an employer for unexpected overtime fees sucks for everybody and gives you a bad reputation.
Be proactive about compensation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274466</id>
	<title>Absolutely</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259574600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Being forced to remain in contact, remain sober and live your life with the lingering wonder of being called or inturrepted at any moment is a job in itself. If you are on-call, you should be getting paid for it. I work in tech support for a healthcare system. I am paid hourly, and in a rotation where I am on-call for one week every five weeks. During this time, I am guaranteed $2.50 per hour I am off duty and carrying a pager. If I come in, I get three hours of overtime whether I am here for three hours or five minutes.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Being forced to remain in contact , remain sober and live your life with the lingering wonder of being called or inturrepted at any moment is a job in itself .
If you are on-call , you should be getting paid for it .
I work in tech support for a healthcare system .
I am paid hourly , and in a rotation where I am on-call for one week every five weeks .
During this time , I am guaranteed $ 2.50 per hour I am off duty and carrying a pager .
If I come in , I get three hours of overtime whether I am here for three hours or five minutes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Being forced to remain in contact, remain sober and live your life with the lingering wonder of being called or inturrepted at any moment is a job in itself.
If you are on-call, you should be getting paid for it.
I work in tech support for a healthcare system.
I am paid hourly, and in a rotation where I am on-call for one week every five weeks.
During this time, I am guaranteed $2.50 per hour I am off duty and carrying a pager.
If I come in, I get three hours of overtime whether I am here for three hours or five minutes.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274490</id>
	<title>Being on-call is a salary job...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259574720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>at least in California. Hourly paid employees are paid by the hour, regardless of where they are or when the hour is. If you get a salary, you get a set paycheck regardless of the number of hours you work, including answering the phone in the middle of the night on a Saturday. It's very simple. If you don't like being on call, don't take the job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>at least in California .
Hourly paid employees are paid by the hour , regardless of where they are or when the hour is .
If you get a salary , you get a set paycheck regardless of the number of hours you work , including answering the phone in the middle of the night on a Saturday .
It 's very simple .
If you do n't like being on call , do n't take the job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>at least in California.
Hourly paid employees are paid by the hour, regardless of where they are or when the hour is.
If you get a salary, you get a set paycheck regardless of the number of hours you work, including answering the phone in the middle of the night on a Saturday.
It's very simple.
If you don't like being on call, don't take the job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30277216</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>Rasperin</author>
	<datestamp>1259585400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How much is a persons life worth, say you are Walmart, Amazon, or any one of a million big retailers which make millions during the 7pm - 11pm? Not exactly 3am, but you go in, get your server back up and running. Get the applications redeployed, and you kept yourself from losing customers and sales. Many life insurance companies wont give you a fraction of what these businesses generate in an hour for your life. So really, which one is more valuable?</htmltext>
<tokenext>How much is a persons life worth , say you are Walmart , Amazon , or any one of a million big retailers which make millions during the 7pm - 11pm ?
Not exactly 3am , but you go in , get your server back up and running .
Get the applications redeployed , and you kept yourself from losing customers and sales .
Many life insurance companies wont give you a fraction of what these businesses generate in an hour for your life .
So really , which one is more valuable ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How much is a persons life worth, say you are Walmart, Amazon, or any one of a million big retailers which make millions during the 7pm - 11pm?
Not exactly 3am, but you go in, get your server back up and running.
Get the applications redeployed, and you kept yourself from losing customers and sales.
Many life insurance companies wont give you a fraction of what these businesses generate in an hour for your life.
So really, which one is more valuable?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273504</id>
	<title>Depends on your contract...</title>
	<author>jackhererUK</author>
	<datestamp>1259614500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>... and the terms you agreed to when you took the job.  The usual deal is that being on call is covered by your salary but if you actually get called out you get more paid for it, usually a standard fee per call rather than an hourly rate.  There is usually an on call rota as well so you are not on call 24/7.</htmltext>
<tokenext>... and the terms you agreed to when you took the job .
The usual deal is that being on call is covered by your salary but if you actually get called out you get more paid for it , usually a standard fee per call rather than an hourly rate .
There is usually an on call rota as well so you are not on call 24/7 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... and the terms you agreed to when you took the job.
The usual deal is that being on call is covered by your salary but if you actually get called out you get more paid for it, usually a standard fee per call rather than an hourly rate.
There is usually an on call rota as well so you are not on call 24/7.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274456</id>
	<title>Stew-pid</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259574600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Mr Lawyer" is a dumb a$$ -- I'll just bet you can't call him 24x7 and expect "no additional charges".   Get a grip dude.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Mr Lawyer " is a dumb a $ $ -- I 'll just bet you ca n't call him 24x7 and expect " no additional charges " .
Get a grip dude .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Mr Lawyer" is a dumb a$$ -- I'll just bet you can't call him 24x7 and expect "no additional charges".
Get a grip dude.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273262</id>
	<title>There seems to be some confusion here...</title>
	<author>fuzzyfuzzyfungus</author>
	<datestamp>1259613720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Obviously, with all else equal, the guy who is 40 hours + on call needs to be paid more than the guy who is 40 hours only, unless we want to go back to the good old days of indentured servitude or something.<br> <br>

However, it doesn't really much matter exactly how that extra money is delivered. It could be that "The job description of 'Job A' includes being on call, which is why people who do it earn a hefty salary" or it could be "'Job B' is 9 to 5; and time on call is X dollars/hour outside of that". That seems to be the point of confusion.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Obviously , with all else equal , the guy who is 40 hours + on call needs to be paid more than the guy who is 40 hours only , unless we want to go back to the good old days of indentured servitude or something .
However , it does n't really much matter exactly how that extra money is delivered .
It could be that " The job description of 'Job A ' includes being on call , which is why people who do it earn a hefty salary " or it could be " 'Job B ' is 9 to 5 ; and time on call is X dollars/hour outside of that " .
That seems to be the point of confusion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Obviously, with all else equal, the guy who is 40 hours + on call needs to be paid more than the guy who is 40 hours only, unless we want to go back to the good old days of indentured servitude or something.
However, it doesn't really much matter exactly how that extra money is delivered.
It could be that "The job description of 'Job A' includes being on call, which is why people who do it earn a hefty salary" or it could be "'Job B' is 9 to 5; and time on call is X dollars/hour outside of that".
That seems to be the point of confusion.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274994</id>
	<title>Re:Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>Amouth</author>
	<datestamp>1259576880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>i remember this becoming an issue for me - i was on vacation - got an e-mail on my phone - had been drinking considerably and was in the car with the wife driving us back to the hotel.</p><p>the next week when i was back in the office there was a print out of the e-mail i sent with a huge ? on it on my desk..  apparently my response was so bad the thought my e-mail got "corrupted"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>i remember this becoming an issue for me - i was on vacation - got an e-mail on my phone - had been drinking considerably and was in the car with the wife driving us back to the hotel.the next week when i was back in the office there was a print out of the e-mail i sent with a huge ?
on it on my desk.. apparently my response was so bad the thought my e-mail got " corrupted "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i remember this becoming an issue for me - i was on vacation - got an e-mail on my phone - had been drinking considerably and was in the car with the wife driving us back to the hotel.the next week when i was back in the office there was a print out of the e-mail i sent with a huge ?
on it on my desk..  apparently my response was so bad the thought my e-mail got "corrupted"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273830</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273844</id>
	<title>Depends on what's expected</title>
	<author>Peachy</author>
	<datestamp>1259572380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If expected to respond with more than just a phone call (e.g. get dialled in within 30 minutes or onsite within 60 minutes) then should get paid, because this limits what you can do while oncall.  That might include staying at home, or abstaining from beer, or cancelling trips out with the family.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If expected to respond with more than just a phone call ( e.g .
get dialled in within 30 minutes or onsite within 60 minutes ) then should get paid , because this limits what you can do while oncall .
That might include staying at home , or abstaining from beer , or cancelling trips out with the family .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If expected to respond with more than just a phone call (e.g.
get dialled in within 30 minutes or onsite within 60 minutes) then should get paid, because this limits what you can do while oncall.
That might include staying at home, or abstaining from beer, or cancelling trips out with the family.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273296</id>
	<title>TFA said it all.</title>
	<author>NoYob</author>
	<datestamp>1259613840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Basically, it's what you agree to. If you're negotiating for a job that has you on call then bring it up <i>before</i> you're hired or contracted.<p>Geeze, it's not rocket science.</p><p>Don't like being on call? Quit. In this economy it'll be real easy to replace you - good luck finding another job, though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Basically , it 's what you agree to .
If you 're negotiating for a job that has you on call then bring it up before you 're hired or contracted.Geeze , it 's not rocket science.Do n't like being on call ?
Quit. In this economy it 'll be real easy to replace you - good luck finding another job , though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Basically, it's what you agree to.
If you're negotiating for a job that has you on call then bring it up before you're hired or contracted.Geeze, it's not rocket science.Don't like being on call?
Quit. In this economy it'll be real easy to replace you - good luck finding another job, though.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274238</id>
	<title>It's easy</title>
	<author>fudgefactor7</author>
	<datestamp>1259573760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You're on call, you get nothing until you're called in, then you get time-and-a-half or double-time (for a holiday). That's how we do it here.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're on call , you get nothing until you 're called in , then you get time-and-a-half or double-time ( for a holiday ) .
That 's how we do it here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're on call, you get nothing until you're called in, then you get time-and-a-half or double-time (for a holiday).
That's how we do it here.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30277494</id>
	<title>Re:Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259586780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I had a different arrangement with my previous employer, I wasn't paid to be on call but any call was a minimum of 4h of work, it was known that most calls were less than 1h or work.
That way we got paid well per incident, and they only paid per incident.
if he doesn't like his current gig, he should quit, or get rid of that client.

-S</htmltext>
<tokenext>I had a different arrangement with my previous employer , I was n't paid to be on call but any call was a minimum of 4h of work , it was known that most calls were less than 1h or work .
That way we got paid well per incident , and they only paid per incident .
if he does n't like his current gig , he should quit , or get rid of that client .
-S</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had a different arrangement with my previous employer, I wasn't paid to be on call but any call was a minimum of 4h of work, it was known that most calls were less than 1h or work.
That way we got paid well per incident, and they only paid per incident.
if he doesn't like his current gig, he should quit, or get rid of that client.
-S</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273330</id>
	<title>I 3 My Job</title>
	<author>illumin8</author>
	<datestamp>1259613960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My company has a great on-call system.  You're on call 1 out of 8 weeks, and get paid $50 a day to carry the pager, which really means "forward SMS monitoring messages to your cellphone."  It's also nice because we run Linux so our systems rarely have issues.  It's basically like getting an extra $350 every other month for nothing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My company has a great on-call system .
You 're on call 1 out of 8 weeks , and get paid $ 50 a day to carry the pager , which really means " forward SMS monitoring messages to your cellphone .
" It 's also nice because we run Linux so our systems rarely have issues .
It 's basically like getting an extra $ 350 every other month for nothing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My company has a great on-call system.
You're on call 1 out of 8 weeks, and get paid $50 a day to carry the pager, which really means "forward SMS monitoring messages to your cellphone.
"  It's also nice because we run Linux so our systems rarely have issues.
It's basically like getting an extra $350 every other month for nothing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274894</id>
	<title>Editor, please change thread title to...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259576400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>..."Should This Pussy Grow A Pair?"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... " Should This Pussy Grow A Pair ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>..."Should This Pussy Grow A Pair?
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274914</id>
	<title>FLSA - Engaged to Wait v Waiting to be Engaged</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259576520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Check out the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA), in particular definitions of "Waiting to be engaged" versus "Engaged to wait".  The former doesn't pay, the latter does. You can anonymously request a suspect employer / "client" of yours be reviewed, and the Feds will show up on their doorstep and ask to see all pay (W2 and Contractors) records for the last 2 years.  Then they decide if a contractor who filed the anonymous request for such audit is actually an employee.</p><p>The mere dunning threat of such review along with credit reports is enough, in many cases, to get paid.  If you have the patience for the dunning part.</p><p>More on FLSA:</p><p>http://www.google.com/search?q=Fair+Labor+Standards+Act</p><p>Cheers,<br>
&nbsp; -dredeyedick</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Check out the Fair Labor Standards Act ( FLSA ) , in particular definitions of " Waiting to be engaged " versus " Engaged to wait " .
The former does n't pay , the latter does .
You can anonymously request a suspect employer / " client " of yours be reviewed , and the Feds will show up on their doorstep and ask to see all pay ( W2 and Contractors ) records for the last 2 years .
Then they decide if a contractor who filed the anonymous request for such audit is actually an employee.The mere dunning threat of such review along with credit reports is enough , in many cases , to get paid .
If you have the patience for the dunning part.More on FLSA : http : //www.google.com/search ? q = Fair + Labor + Standards + ActCheers ,   -dredeyedick</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Check out the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA), in particular definitions of "Waiting to be engaged" versus "Engaged to wait".
The former doesn't pay, the latter does.
You can anonymously request a suspect employer / "client" of yours be reviewed, and the Feds will show up on their doorstep and ask to see all pay (W2 and Contractors) records for the last 2 years.
Then they decide if a contractor who filed the anonymous request for such audit is actually an employee.The mere dunning threat of such review along with credit reports is enough, in many cases, to get paid.
If you have the patience for the dunning part.More on FLSA:http://www.google.com/search?q=Fair+Labor+Standards+ActCheers,
  -dredeyedick</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274688</id>
	<title>Re:There seems to be some confusion here...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259575500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Indeed it doesn't even need to be paid out in cash.</p><p>At my company  whoever has the on-call phone for a week also gets a company car which is a ute (very useful since I have neither a ute, SUV or trailer), and additionally a 3 day weekend at the end of my on call shift. This works out well since the extra 7hours of holiday is usually greater than the 3 or so hours I end up going to work on the occasional week.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Indeed it does n't even need to be paid out in cash.At my company whoever has the on-call phone for a week also gets a company car which is a ute ( very useful since I have neither a ute , SUV or trailer ) , and additionally a 3 day weekend at the end of my on call shift .
This works out well since the extra 7hours of holiday is usually greater than the 3 or so hours I end up going to work on the occasional week .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Indeed it doesn't even need to be paid out in cash.At my company  whoever has the on-call phone for a week also gets a company car which is a ute (very useful since I have neither a ute, SUV or trailer), and additionally a 3 day weekend at the end of my on call shift.
This works out well since the extra 7hours of holiday is usually greater than the 3 or so hours I end up going to work on the occasional week.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273262</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274416</id>
	<title>my experience</title>
	<author>LikwidCirkel</author>
	<datestamp>1259574480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The only time I've been on-call was with a company with around 8 employees and only one would need to be on-call at once.  We would take shifts for one week at a time, and there wasn't pay for being specifically on-call, but any call that we have do act on resulted in a minimum of 3 hours of pay, because that is the legal minimum shift time in Alberta as far as I know.

This never really seemed unfair, because it was one week out of 7 or 8, and we were all working together to hold the place together.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The only time I 've been on-call was with a company with around 8 employees and only one would need to be on-call at once .
We would take shifts for one week at a time , and there was n't pay for being specifically on-call , but any call that we have do act on resulted in a minimum of 3 hours of pay , because that is the legal minimum shift time in Alberta as far as I know .
This never really seemed unfair , because it was one week out of 7 or 8 , and we were all working together to hold the place together .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only time I've been on-call was with a company with around 8 employees and only one would need to be on-call at once.
We would take shifts for one week at a time, and there wasn't pay for being specifically on-call, but any call that we have do act on resulted in a minimum of 3 hours of pay, because that is the legal minimum shift time in Alberta as far as I know.
This never really seemed unfair, because it was one week out of 7 or 8, and we were all working together to hold the place together.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30279644</id>
	<title>I've worked this way for years.</title>
	<author>CFD339</author>
	<datestamp>1259605260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I do this kind of work for a living, as a consultant who provides support for the work I've done.</p><p>In one case, a client of mine relies pretty heavily on my work and has for many years.  She knows that if she calls with an urgent problem, I'll do everything I reasonably can to get back to her as quickly as possible -- day or night.  In return, she knows not to raise the panic flag on little stuff during off hours.   That's good enough in most cases.</p><p>We've talked about going to an SLA with, for example, a 4 hour response time on critical issues.  My answer to that, is that when we move from "best reasonable effort" to a contracted response time -- even though I am nearly always inside that window already -- the cost goes from being covered by our regular work to several thousand dollars a month.   Once it's a contracted promise like that, I have to keep backup people trained on the systems in case I'm on a long flight or get sick (or whatever) and I have to wear a pager, and get no time off without paying someone to cover for me.</p><p>There are ABSOLUTELY times when it makes sense to pay for that kind of coverage.  I could even argue that this system is important enough that she should do it, but I also have to be clear that for 99\% of the time -- and has always been the case for the last ehemteen years -- it will be money that doesn't buy any new results.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do this kind of work for a living , as a consultant who provides support for the work I 've done.In one case , a client of mine relies pretty heavily on my work and has for many years .
She knows that if she calls with an urgent problem , I 'll do everything I reasonably can to get back to her as quickly as possible -- day or night .
In return , she knows not to raise the panic flag on little stuff during off hours .
That 's good enough in most cases.We 've talked about going to an SLA with , for example , a 4 hour response time on critical issues .
My answer to that , is that when we move from " best reasonable effort " to a contracted response time -- even though I am nearly always inside that window already -- the cost goes from being covered by our regular work to several thousand dollars a month .
Once it 's a contracted promise like that , I have to keep backup people trained on the systems in case I 'm on a long flight or get sick ( or whatever ) and I have to wear a pager , and get no time off without paying someone to cover for me.There are ABSOLUTELY times when it makes sense to pay for that kind of coverage .
I could even argue that this system is important enough that she should do it , but I also have to be clear that for 99 \ % of the time -- and has always been the case for the last ehemteen years -- it will be money that does n't buy any new results .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I do this kind of work for a living, as a consultant who provides support for the work I've done.In one case, a client of mine relies pretty heavily on my work and has for many years.
She knows that if she calls with an urgent problem, I'll do everything I reasonably can to get back to her as quickly as possible -- day or night.
In return, she knows not to raise the panic flag on little stuff during off hours.
That's good enough in most cases.We've talked about going to an SLA with, for example, a 4 hour response time on critical issues.
My answer to that, is that when we move from "best reasonable effort" to a contracted response time -- even though I am nearly always inside that window already -- the cost goes from being covered by our regular work to several thousand dollars a month.
Once it's a contracted promise like that, I have to keep backup people trained on the systems in case I'm on a long flight or get sick (or whatever) and I have to wear a pager, and get no time off without paying someone to cover for me.There are ABSOLUTELY times when it makes sense to pay for that kind of coverage.
I could even argue that this system is important enough that she should do it, but I also have to be clear that for 99\% of the time -- and has always been the case for the last ehemteen years -- it will be money that doesn't buy any new results.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273846</id>
	<title>Do I have to be sober?</title>
	<author>Anonymous Psychopath</author>
	<datestamp>1259572380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At my last job we didn't have an on call schedule but we were generally expected to be accessible to our customers if Something Bad happened. One Friday night, around 7pm, my colleague got one of those calls. He listened to the customer explain the problem, and then proceeded to tell him that he would be best served by calling the manufacturer's support line as he had been drinking for several hours and would probably just make things worse in his current condition. No one could really fault him; he did the right thing by the customer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At my last job we did n't have an on call schedule but we were generally expected to be accessible to our customers if Something Bad happened .
One Friday night , around 7pm , my colleague got one of those calls .
He listened to the customer explain the problem , and then proceeded to tell him that he would be best served by calling the manufacturer 's support line as he had been drinking for several hours and would probably just make things worse in his current condition .
No one could really fault him ; he did the right thing by the customer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At my last job we didn't have an on call schedule but we were generally expected to be accessible to our customers if Something Bad happened.
One Friday night, around 7pm, my colleague got one of those calls.
He listened to the customer explain the problem, and then proceeded to tell him that he would be best served by calling the manufacturer's support line as he had been drinking for several hours and would probably just make things worse in his current condition.
No one could really fault him; he did the right thing by the customer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273182</id>
	<title>Well, then...</title>
	<author>fyngyrz</author>
	<datestamp>1259613420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Here's the way I see it. Mr. Lawyer, you want to pay for support 40 hours a week? I'll give you a cellphone number I'll answer 40 hours a week.
</p><p>
It is ridiculous to presume that offering the opportunity to interrupt one's life at any time, any place, with an overriding obligation to deal with your problems, has no value.
</p><p>
Oh, you want the <i>168</i> hour phone number? Well, that's gonna cost ya...
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's the way I see it .
Mr. Lawyer , you want to pay for support 40 hours a week ?
I 'll give you a cellphone number I 'll answer 40 hours a week .
It is ridiculous to presume that offering the opportunity to interrupt one 's life at any time , any place , with an overriding obligation to deal with your problems , has no value .
Oh , you want the 168 hour phone number ?
Well , that 's gon na cost ya.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Here's the way I see it.
Mr. Lawyer, you want to pay for support 40 hours a week?
I'll give you a cellphone number I'll answer 40 hours a week.
It is ridiculous to presume that offering the opportunity to interrupt one's life at any time, any place, with an overriding obligation to deal with your problems, has no value.
Oh, you want the 168 hour phone number?
Well, that's gonna cost ya...
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30288246</id>
	<title>Let me toss in a less mature perspective</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259659500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I am off work, I am allowed to do whatever I want. It's my time. I can, for instance, get drunk. I am over 21, so I am entirely allowed to go home, turn on old McGuyver episodes and guzzle down a bottle of cheep hooch.</p><p>People on call are not.</p><p>I can go camping, outside of cell phone range, in the lovely Mt. Hood National Forrest, where I can run around naked and be chased by bears.</p><p>People on call can not.</p><p>I can go to an all-night rave, where the music is so loud that there is no chance at all I will hear a cell phone or feel the vibrations going off. I can spend 10 hours straight listening to repetitive music and watching trust fund kids snort fake Extasy off each other.</p><p>People on call can not.</p><p>I can go to a spa, and spend two days getting mudbaths, massages and whatever the heck it is they do with avocados while my cell phone sits in the locker turned off per the spa rules.</p><p>People on call can not.</p><p>I can hop in a friend's car and go somewhere.</p><p>People on call must take their own car as they may have to drive into the office while their friends are under no such obligation.</p><p>So it all boils down to "when you are on call, you are still working. You may not leave your cell phone area, you may not get drunk with your friends, you may not go to a rave, you may not check into a spa for a couple days and you may not do anything else that would render you unable to respond to your cell phone in a completely work-ready manner." All that is missing is the ID badge and the cubicle.</p><p>It is a mostly low-level employee who is signing away all their recreation time, sacrificing for the company. They are working in the same manner that the security guard on the night shift is working: he can't leave, he can't drink, he may be allowed low-level recreation such as TV or something but otherwise is stuck there "just in case." And the rent-a-cop gets paid for it. So should IT.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I am off work , I am allowed to do whatever I want .
It 's my time .
I can , for instance , get drunk .
I am over 21 , so I am entirely allowed to go home , turn on old McGuyver episodes and guzzle down a bottle of cheep hooch.People on call are not.I can go camping , outside of cell phone range , in the lovely Mt .
Hood National Forrest , where I can run around naked and be chased by bears.People on call can not.I can go to an all-night rave , where the music is so loud that there is no chance at all I will hear a cell phone or feel the vibrations going off .
I can spend 10 hours straight listening to repetitive music and watching trust fund kids snort fake Extasy off each other.People on call can not.I can go to a spa , and spend two days getting mudbaths , massages and whatever the heck it is they do with avocados while my cell phone sits in the locker turned off per the spa rules.People on call can not.I can hop in a friend 's car and go somewhere.People on call must take their own car as they may have to drive into the office while their friends are under no such obligation.So it all boils down to " when you are on call , you are still working .
You may not leave your cell phone area , you may not get drunk with your friends , you may not go to a rave , you may not check into a spa for a couple days and you may not do anything else that would render you unable to respond to your cell phone in a completely work-ready manner .
" All that is missing is the ID badge and the cubicle.It is a mostly low-level employee who is signing away all their recreation time , sacrificing for the company .
They are working in the same manner that the security guard on the night shift is working : he ca n't leave , he ca n't drink , he may be allowed low-level recreation such as TV or something but otherwise is stuck there " just in case .
" And the rent-a-cop gets paid for it .
So should IT .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I am off work, I am allowed to do whatever I want.
It's my time.
I can, for instance, get drunk.
I am over 21, so I am entirely allowed to go home, turn on old McGuyver episodes and guzzle down a bottle of cheep hooch.People on call are not.I can go camping, outside of cell phone range, in the lovely Mt.
Hood National Forrest, where I can run around naked and be chased by bears.People on call can not.I can go to an all-night rave, where the music is so loud that there is no chance at all I will hear a cell phone or feel the vibrations going off.
I can spend 10 hours straight listening to repetitive music and watching trust fund kids snort fake Extasy off each other.People on call can not.I can go to a spa, and spend two days getting mudbaths, massages and whatever the heck it is they do with avocados while my cell phone sits in the locker turned off per the spa rules.People on call can not.I can hop in a friend's car and go somewhere.People on call must take their own car as they may have to drive into the office while their friends are under no such obligation.So it all boils down to "when you are on call, you are still working.
You may not leave your cell phone area, you may not get drunk with your friends, you may not go to a rave, you may not check into a spa for a couple days and you may not do anything else that would render you unable to respond to your cell phone in a completely work-ready manner.
" All that is missing is the ID badge and the cubicle.It is a mostly low-level employee who is signing away all their recreation time, sacrificing for the company.
They are working in the same manner that the security guard on the night shift is working: he can't leave, he can't drink, he may be allowed low-level recreation such as TV or something but otherwise is stuck there "just in case.
" And the rent-a-cop gets paid for it.
So should IT.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273322</id>
	<title>Firefighting</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259613960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Firefighters) run shifts, they are only ever on call when they are at the station, which they have two 12 hour day shifts, two 12 hour night shifts, and then 4 days off. Pretty fair working conditions if you ask me. No 40 hours in at the station, and then an expectation that they will get up at 3 o'clock in the morning cos Mrs Jones' left a candle burning and the cat knocked it over.

Maybe Mr Lawyer need's to check who he is comparing with before he accidentally  agrees that 24/7 is unfair.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Firefighters ) run shifts , they are only ever on call when they are at the station , which they have two 12 hour day shifts , two 12 hour night shifts , and then 4 days off .
Pretty fair working conditions if you ask me .
No 40 hours in at the station , and then an expectation that they will get up at 3 o'clock in the morning cos Mrs Jones ' left a candle burning and the cat knocked it over .
Maybe Mr Lawyer need 's to check who he is comparing with before he accidentally agrees that 24/7 is unfair .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Firefighters) run shifts, they are only ever on call when they are at the station, which they have two 12 hour day shifts, two 12 hour night shifts, and then 4 days off.
Pretty fair working conditions if you ask me.
No 40 hours in at the station, and then an expectation that they will get up at 3 o'clock in the morning cos Mrs Jones' left a candle burning and the cat knocked it over.
Maybe Mr Lawyer need's to check who he is comparing with before he accidentally  agrees that 24/7 is unfair.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274400</id>
	<title>Re:He's not really "on call"</title>
	<author>QuantumRiff</author>
	<datestamp>1259574420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If he got paid for being "on call" as a independent contractor then we'd all have to pay plumbers, lawn mowing guy, electrician, mechanics, and all the other "use you when I need you" people in our lives for being "on call".</p></div><p>I think the mob patented that business method, thank god... Or else those groups would use it..  Can see the plumber now.. "Nice Shitter you got there.. sure would be a shame if something happened to it......."</p><p>But in reality, many plumbers and other professionals will charge you extra for calling them at 2am on a Sunday, but of course, if your sewer is overflowing, or your heater is dead in January, it doesn't really seem to matter as much.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If he got paid for being " on call " as a independent contractor then we 'd all have to pay plumbers , lawn mowing guy , electrician , mechanics , and all the other " use you when I need you " people in our lives for being " on call " .I think the mob patented that business method , thank god... Or else those groups would use it.. Can see the plumber now.. " Nice Shitter you got there.. sure would be a shame if something happened to it....... " But in reality , many plumbers and other professionals will charge you extra for calling them at 2am on a Sunday , but of course , if your sewer is overflowing , or your heater is dead in January , it does n't really seem to matter as much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If he got paid for being "on call" as a independent contractor then we'd all have to pay plumbers, lawn mowing guy, electrician, mechanics, and all the other "use you when I need you" people in our lives for being "on call".I think the mob patented that business method, thank god... Or else those groups would use it..  Can see the plumber now.. "Nice Shitter you got there.. sure would be a shame if something happened to it......."But in reality, many plumbers and other professionals will charge you extra for calling them at 2am on a Sunday, but of course, if your sewer is overflowing, or your heater is dead in January, it doesn't really seem to matter as much.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30277332</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259586060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You necesarily need a union. Some states have laws directly related to this.<br>Although some large companies think they are above the law.</p><p>&ldquo;Engaged to Wait&rdquo; or &ldquo;Waiting to be Engaged&rdquo;<br>In Skidmore v. Swift &amp; Co. (1944), the United States Supreme Court classified an employee as<br>either &ldquo;engaged to wait&rdquo; or &ldquo;waiting to be engaged&rdquo;. An employee who is required to stay very<br>close to the workplace in time and distance, and has very little freedom to use the time as their<br>own is &ldquo;engaged to wait&rdquo; and the time is classified as work time for compensation purposes. If<br>the employee has only minimal restrictions on the use of their time while on call, and has a fair<br>amount of time to respond to the call, they are &ldquo;waiting to be engaged&rdquo; and the on call time is not<br>hours worked for compensation purposes.<br>There is no one universally accepted test for determining whether on call time should be<br>considered as hours worked. The following factors may be considered in making the<br>determination whether on call time is compensable. All of these factors should be considered<br>in conjunction with other relevant information in making the decision.<br>1. THE GEOGRAPHIC OR RESPONSE TIME LIMITATIONS PLACED ON THE<br>EMPLOYEE. A narrow geographic restriction, or strict time limitations, may be<br>indicative of an employee engaged to wait. For example, requiring an employee to<br>remain close to the workplace, or requiring the employee to respond in 5 minutes, are<br>indications that the employee may have been engaged to wait.<br>2. THE FREQUENCY WITH WHICH THE EMPLOYEE MUST RESPOND TO CALLS<br>WHILE ON CALL. If an employee is required to respond to a call every time he or she is<br>on duty, then the on call duty is more disruptive to nonworking time and is more<br>indicative of an employee engaged to wait.<br>3. THE USE OF A PAGER OR CELL PHONE. The widespread availability of cell phones<br>and pagers has made it less likely that on call time will be considered working time, as<br>COLORADO DEPARTMENT OF LABOR AND EMPLOYMENT<br>DIVISION OF LABOR<br>633 17th Street, Suite 200<br>Denver, Colorado 80202-3660<br>Toll-free: 1.888.390.7936 Fax: 303.318.8400<br>Website: http://www.coworkforce.com/lab<br>Keyword Index<br>the employee is not required to wait near a home phone or other specific location. Merely<br>requiring an employee to carry a cell phone or wear a pager does not in itself make the<br>time compensable.<br>4. THE CONSEQUENCES OF FAILING TO RESPOND. Greater flexibility in response to<br>a call increases the likelihood that the on call time is not compensable. For example, if an<br>employee does not have to respond to a call, or only has to respond to a certain<br>percentage of calls, then the time spent on call is less likely to be compensable.<br>REFERENCES<br>Colorado Minimum Wage Order Number 22 (Section 2)<br>29 Code of Federal Regulations 785.14 - 785.17<br>Skidmore v. Swift &amp; Co., 323 U.S. 134 (1944)<br>WEBSITE LINKS<br>http://www.coworkforce.com/ (Colorado Department of Labor and Employment)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You necesarily need a union .
Some states have laws directly related to this.Although some large companies think they are above the law.    Engaged to Wait    or    Waiting to be Engaged    In Skidmore v. Swift &amp; Co. ( 1944 ) , the United States Supreme Court classified an employee aseither    engaged to wait    or    waiting to be engaged    .
An employee who is required to stay veryclose to the workplace in time and distance , and has very little freedom to use the time as theirown is    engaged to wait    and the time is classified as work time for compensation purposes .
Ifthe employee has only minimal restrictions on the use of their time while on call , and has a fairamount of time to respond to the call , they are    waiting to be engaged    and the on call time is nothours worked for compensation purposes.There is no one universally accepted test for determining whether on call time should beconsidered as hours worked .
The following factors may be considered in making thedetermination whether on call time is compensable .
All of these factors should be consideredin conjunction with other relevant information in making the decision.1 .
THE GEOGRAPHIC OR RESPONSE TIME LIMITATIONS PLACED ON THEEMPLOYEE .
A narrow geographic restriction , or strict time limitations , may beindicative of an employee engaged to wait .
For example , requiring an employee toremain close to the workplace , or requiring the employee to respond in 5 minutes , areindications that the employee may have been engaged to wait.2 .
THE FREQUENCY WITH WHICH THE EMPLOYEE MUST RESPOND TO CALLSWHILE ON CALL .
If an employee is required to respond to a call every time he or she ison duty , then the on call duty is more disruptive to nonworking time and is moreindicative of an employee engaged to wait.3 .
THE USE OF A PAGER OR CELL PHONE .
The widespread availability of cell phonesand pagers has made it less likely that on call time will be considered working time , asCOLORADO DEPARTMENT OF LABOR AND EMPLOYMENTDIVISION OF LABOR633 17th Street , Suite 200Denver , Colorado 80202-3660Toll-free : 1.888.390.7936 Fax : 303.318.8400Website : http : //www.coworkforce.com/labKeyword Indexthe employee is not required to wait near a home phone or other specific location .
Merelyrequiring an employee to carry a cell phone or wear a pager does not in itself make thetime compensable.4 .
THE CONSEQUENCES OF FAILING TO RESPOND .
Greater flexibility in response toa call increases the likelihood that the on call time is not compensable .
For example , if anemployee does not have to respond to a call , or only has to respond to a certainpercentage of calls , then the time spent on call is less likely to be compensable.REFERENCESColorado Minimum Wage Order Number 22 ( Section 2 ) 29 Code of Federal Regulations 785.14 - 785.17Skidmore v. Swift &amp; Co. , 323 U.S. 134 ( 1944 ) WEBSITE LINKShttp : //www.coworkforce.com/ ( Colorado Department of Labor and Employment )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You necesarily need a union.
Some states have laws directly related to this.Although some large companies think they are above the law.“Engaged to Wait” or “Waiting to be Engaged”In Skidmore v. Swift &amp; Co. (1944), the United States Supreme Court classified an employee aseither “engaged to wait” or “waiting to be engaged”.
An employee who is required to stay veryclose to the workplace in time and distance, and has very little freedom to use the time as theirown is “engaged to wait” and the time is classified as work time for compensation purposes.
Ifthe employee has only minimal restrictions on the use of their time while on call, and has a fairamount of time to respond to the call, they are “waiting to be engaged” and the on call time is nothours worked for compensation purposes.There is no one universally accepted test for determining whether on call time should beconsidered as hours worked.
The following factors may be considered in making thedetermination whether on call time is compensable.
All of these factors should be consideredin conjunction with other relevant information in making the decision.1.
THE GEOGRAPHIC OR RESPONSE TIME LIMITATIONS PLACED ON THEEMPLOYEE.
A narrow geographic restriction, or strict time limitations, may beindicative of an employee engaged to wait.
For example, requiring an employee toremain close to the workplace, or requiring the employee to respond in 5 minutes, areindications that the employee may have been engaged to wait.2.
THE FREQUENCY WITH WHICH THE EMPLOYEE MUST RESPOND TO CALLSWHILE ON CALL.
If an employee is required to respond to a call every time he or she ison duty, then the on call duty is more disruptive to nonworking time and is moreindicative of an employee engaged to wait.3.
THE USE OF A PAGER OR CELL PHONE.
The widespread availability of cell phonesand pagers has made it less likely that on call time will be considered working time, asCOLORADO DEPARTMENT OF LABOR AND EMPLOYMENTDIVISION OF LABOR633 17th Street, Suite 200Denver, Colorado 80202-3660Toll-free: 1.888.390.7936 Fax: 303.318.8400Website: http://www.coworkforce.com/labKeyword Indexthe employee is not required to wait near a home phone or other specific location.
Merelyrequiring an employee to carry a cell phone or wear a pager does not in itself make thetime compensable.4.
THE CONSEQUENCES OF FAILING TO RESPOND.
Greater flexibility in response toa call increases the likelihood that the on call time is not compensable.
For example, if anemployee does not have to respond to a call, or only has to respond to a certainpercentage of calls, then the time spent on call is less likely to be compensable.REFERENCESColorado Minimum Wage Order Number 22 (Section 2)29 Code of Federal Regulations 785.14 - 785.17Skidmore v. Swift &amp; Co., 323 U.S. 134 (1944)WEBSITE LINKShttp://www.coworkforce.com/ (Colorado Department of Labor and Employment)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30279570</id>
	<title>Crummy analogy</title>
	<author>originalhack</author>
	<datestamp>1259604600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The firefighter analogy is pretty bad.  An off-duty firefighter is able to leave or drink or otherwise be unavailable for duty.  An on-duty firefighter must be ready to roll and not get more than a minute or so from his truck.  There are few places in the US at least where one would be paid to be "on-call" while "off duty."<br><br>So, if the expectation is that the person's life should be structured around being available, meaning he cannot go to a movie or out with friends while "on-call", that's pretty much "on-duty."   If being on call means that, in the unlikely event that something comes up, he's the guy that gets the voice-mail and has to respond in an hour or so, that's pretty much "off-duty."</htmltext>
<tokenext>The firefighter analogy is pretty bad .
An off-duty firefighter is able to leave or drink or otherwise be unavailable for duty .
An on-duty firefighter must be ready to roll and not get more than a minute or so from his truck .
There are few places in the US at least where one would be paid to be " on-call " while " off duty .
" So , if the expectation is that the person 's life should be structured around being available , meaning he can not go to a movie or out with friends while " on-call " , that 's pretty much " on-duty .
" If being on call means that , in the unlikely event that something comes up , he 's the guy that gets the voice-mail and has to respond in an hour or so , that 's pretty much " off-duty .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The firefighter analogy is pretty bad.
An off-duty firefighter is able to leave or drink or otherwise be unavailable for duty.
An on-duty firefighter must be ready to roll and not get more than a minute or so from his truck.
There are few places in the US at least where one would be paid to be "on-call" while "off duty.
"So, if the expectation is that the person's life should be structured around being available, meaning he cannot go to a movie or out with friends while "on-call", that's pretty much "on-duty.
"   If being on call means that, in the unlikely event that something comes up, he's the guy that gets the voice-mail and has to respond in an hour or so, that's pretty much "off-duty.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274964</id>
	<title>IANAL, but...</title>
	<author>timbck2</author>
	<datestamp>1259576760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's a U.S. Supreme Court <a href="http://www.hrhero.com/benefits/tip-on-call.shtml" title="hrhero.com">precedent</a> [hrhero.com] [hrhero.com] on "engaged to wait" vs. "waiting to be engaged". So which are you?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a U.S. Supreme Court precedent [ hrhero.com ] [ hrhero.com ] on " engaged to wait " vs. " waiting to be engaged " .
So which are you ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a U.S. Supreme Court precedent [hrhero.com] [hrhero.com] on "engaged to wait" vs. "waiting to be engaged".
So which are you?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273852</id>
	<title>my personal take</title>
	<author>emagery</author>
	<datestamp>1259572380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Regardless of 'the way things are,' my take would be a compromise.  By putting someone on call, you are restricting their movements quite a lot so there should be compensation.  Maybe it's miniscule, like $2/hr.  Failing that, being CALLED in should incur a higher cost for the employer.  OT or doubletime regardless of whether a person has reached their 40 hours or not.  I.e., not paying a person full rate for sitting around their house all day BUT paying a person enough to keep them working for you and at a rate and under conditions enough to keep the employer from abusing said employee.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Regardless of 'the way things are, ' my take would be a compromise .
By putting someone on call , you are restricting their movements quite a lot so there should be compensation .
Maybe it 's miniscule , like $ 2/hr .
Failing that , being CALLED in should incur a higher cost for the employer .
OT or doubletime regardless of whether a person has reached their 40 hours or not .
I.e. , not paying a person full rate for sitting around their house all day BUT paying a person enough to keep them working for you and at a rate and under conditions enough to keep the employer from abusing said employee .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Regardless of 'the way things are,' my take would be a compromise.
By putting someone on call, you are restricting their movements quite a lot so there should be compensation.
Maybe it's miniscule, like $2/hr.
Failing that, being CALLED in should incur a higher cost for the employer.
OT or doubletime regardless of whether a person has reached their 40 hours or not.
I.e., not paying a person full rate for sitting around their house all day BUT paying a person enough to keep them working for you and at a rate and under conditions enough to keep the employer from abusing said employee.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273804</id>
	<title>Re:He's not really "on call"</title>
	<author>Demonantis</author>
	<datestamp>1259572260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The issue is that the technology is specific to the company. The guy that made the system is 100x more valuable at solving the issue then the new guy, that would need the week to get up to speed on how everything is integrated. The cost of the premium for staying available is tiny to the "getting up to speed" cost with hiring out for each issue. The guy who owns the site is going to cut his legs out from under him for not recognizing this and driving away his webmaster.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The issue is that the technology is specific to the company .
The guy that made the system is 100x more valuable at solving the issue then the new guy , that would need the week to get up to speed on how everything is integrated .
The cost of the premium for staying available is tiny to the " getting up to speed " cost with hiring out for each issue .
The guy who owns the site is going to cut his legs out from under him for not recognizing this and driving away his webmaster .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The issue is that the technology is specific to the company.
The guy that made the system is 100x more valuable at solving the issue then the new guy, that would need the week to get up to speed on how everything is integrated.
The cost of the premium for staying available is tiny to the "getting up to speed" cost with hiring out for each issue.
The guy who owns the site is going to cut his legs out from under him for not recognizing this and driving away his webmaster.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276656</id>
	<title>How it works where I am</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259582940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm on 24/7 support, and this is how the renumeration is done when I'm rostered on.  Firstly, there is an "on call" allowance that's paid regardless of any callouts or not.  This is paid at two different rates according to whether a it's a weeknight or a weekend, and a full week of on call allowance amounts to around about a day of normal wage.<br> <br>

Secondly, if there is a callout, no matter how trivial, I get paid my normal hourly rate for a minimum of 1 hour.  Any time spent greater than an hour gets rounded up to the next nearest hour.<br> <br>

This system seems to work pretty well, for me at least, but then again, the system I'm on call for is fairly stable, so it's not too much of an inconvenience.<br> <br>

Also, be sure to negotiate your on call/callout remuneration in connection with some sort of service level agreement.  If they want to, say, have you respond to a request/issue within 30 minutes at any time of day or night, charge them accordingly.  I suspect that the client will start to revise their service level expectations in line with what they can afford or want to pay.

<br> <br>Oh, and I'm also a contractor, so I can't see a good reason why contractors cannot have on call renumeration in much the same vein as permanents.  Note that I'm based in Australia, though, so YMMV</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm on 24/7 support , and this is how the renumeration is done when I 'm rostered on .
Firstly , there is an " on call " allowance that 's paid regardless of any callouts or not .
This is paid at two different rates according to whether a it 's a weeknight or a weekend , and a full week of on call allowance amounts to around about a day of normal wage .
Secondly , if there is a callout , no matter how trivial , I get paid my normal hourly rate for a minimum of 1 hour .
Any time spent greater than an hour gets rounded up to the next nearest hour .
This system seems to work pretty well , for me at least , but then again , the system I 'm on call for is fairly stable , so it 's not too much of an inconvenience .
Also , be sure to negotiate your on call/callout remuneration in connection with some sort of service level agreement .
If they want to , say , have you respond to a request/issue within 30 minutes at any time of day or night , charge them accordingly .
I suspect that the client will start to revise their service level expectations in line with what they can afford or want to pay .
Oh , and I 'm also a contractor , so I ca n't see a good reason why contractors can not have on call renumeration in much the same vein as permanents .
Note that I 'm based in Australia , though , so YMMV</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm on 24/7 support, and this is how the renumeration is done when I'm rostered on.
Firstly, there is an "on call" allowance that's paid regardless of any callouts or not.
This is paid at two different rates according to whether a it's a weeknight or a weekend, and a full week of on call allowance amounts to around about a day of normal wage.
Secondly, if there is a callout, no matter how trivial, I get paid my normal hourly rate for a minimum of 1 hour.
Any time spent greater than an hour gets rounded up to the next nearest hour.
This system seems to work pretty well, for me at least, but then again, the system I'm on call for is fairly stable, so it's not too much of an inconvenience.
Also, be sure to negotiate your on call/callout remuneration in connection with some sort of service level agreement.
If they want to, say, have you respond to a request/issue within 30 minutes at any time of day or night, charge them accordingly.
I suspect that the client will start to revise their service level expectations in line with what they can afford or want to pay.
Oh, and I'm also a contractor, so I can't see a good reason why contractors cannot have on call renumeration in much the same vein as permanents.
Note that I'm based in Australia, though, so YMMV</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275624</id>
	<title>Re:Of course</title>
	<author>Teancum</author>
	<datestamp>1259579220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Fire fighters have very specific regulations for what their hours can be like, and a separate section in American labor laws.  They are one of the few occupations that are allowed to work more than 12 hours in a 24 hour period, but at the same time they are required to have 48 hours off after that 24 hour period except under explicit "emergency" conditions that are defined by law.  Anybody comparing how firefighters are treated to an IT service tech is likely to find themselves seeing that it is the IT tech that is getting the raw end of the deal and that the analogy is not going to be accurate at all.</p><p>Soldiers also have very specific regulations on what they can and can't be expected to do, of course soldiers operate under the UCMJ and not standard civilian labor laws, so that is something a bit different.  And if you are in the military you are guaranteed (usually) 30 days off each year as a benefit and a whole bunch of other benefits explicitly due to your military service.  The pay isn't good, but it is all part of the package.  Interestingly, the DOD has increasingly hired civilian contractors in part because the labor laws as they apply to enlisted personnel are complicated enough that they don't want a private to flip hamburgers or clean toilets (except perhaps as a part of a punishment).  It is cheaper and easier to simply hire a civilian to do those kind of mundane jobs... and the civilians tend to stick around a bit longer than the typical rotation for enlisted folks.  Soldiers and other military personnel also know full well that they will be called upon to make some significant sacrifices for their job... which is explicitly why people are willing to join up with the service in the first place.</p><p>Police and law enforcement officers?  Yeah, they work ungodly shifts and are often expected to be on call..... but I don't know of any salaried police officers.  Perhaps the "brass" at police departments might be salaried (if it is a large major metro department or if you are the "chief"), but it is common to see cities complain about how their police budget is gone due to a significant amount of overtime that has to be paid.  While pay for being a police officer isn't the greatest, they do get paid fairly well and have other "fringe" benefits.</p><p>I just don't see comparing any of these experiences to being an IT guy who is salaried but gets dumped on by all comers and no respect, and no extra money for being essentially a peon to clean up somebody else's mess, and to do that all all hours of the day without any extra compensation.  If you are a well paid geek and you signed up for the job knowing that would be the nature of the job, that is another story.... but it doesn't sound like that was the case in this situation.  There are also specific labor laws regarding information technology workers for overtime that also must be followed... regardless of if the person is a contractor or normal employee.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Fire fighters have very specific regulations for what their hours can be like , and a separate section in American labor laws .
They are one of the few occupations that are allowed to work more than 12 hours in a 24 hour period , but at the same time they are required to have 48 hours off after that 24 hour period except under explicit " emergency " conditions that are defined by law .
Anybody comparing how firefighters are treated to an IT service tech is likely to find themselves seeing that it is the IT tech that is getting the raw end of the deal and that the analogy is not going to be accurate at all.Soldiers also have very specific regulations on what they can and ca n't be expected to do , of course soldiers operate under the UCMJ and not standard civilian labor laws , so that is something a bit different .
And if you are in the military you are guaranteed ( usually ) 30 days off each year as a benefit and a whole bunch of other benefits explicitly due to your military service .
The pay is n't good , but it is all part of the package .
Interestingly , the DOD has increasingly hired civilian contractors in part because the labor laws as they apply to enlisted personnel are complicated enough that they do n't want a private to flip hamburgers or clean toilets ( except perhaps as a part of a punishment ) .
It is cheaper and easier to simply hire a civilian to do those kind of mundane jobs... and the civilians tend to stick around a bit longer than the typical rotation for enlisted folks .
Soldiers and other military personnel also know full well that they will be called upon to make some significant sacrifices for their job... which is explicitly why people are willing to join up with the service in the first place.Police and law enforcement officers ?
Yeah , they work ungodly shifts and are often expected to be on call..... but I do n't know of any salaried police officers .
Perhaps the " brass " at police departments might be salaried ( if it is a large major metro department or if you are the " chief " ) , but it is common to see cities complain about how their police budget is gone due to a significant amount of overtime that has to be paid .
While pay for being a police officer is n't the greatest , they do get paid fairly well and have other " fringe " benefits.I just do n't see comparing any of these experiences to being an IT guy who is salaried but gets dumped on by all comers and no respect , and no extra money for being essentially a peon to clean up somebody else 's mess , and to do that all all hours of the day without any extra compensation .
If you are a well paid geek and you signed up for the job knowing that would be the nature of the job , that is another story.... but it does n't sound like that was the case in this situation .
There are also specific labor laws regarding information technology workers for overtime that also must be followed... regardless of if the person is a contractor or normal employee .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fire fighters have very specific regulations for what their hours can be like, and a separate section in American labor laws.
They are one of the few occupations that are allowed to work more than 12 hours in a 24 hour period, but at the same time they are required to have 48 hours off after that 24 hour period except under explicit "emergency" conditions that are defined by law.
Anybody comparing how firefighters are treated to an IT service tech is likely to find themselves seeing that it is the IT tech that is getting the raw end of the deal and that the analogy is not going to be accurate at all.Soldiers also have very specific regulations on what they can and can't be expected to do, of course soldiers operate under the UCMJ and not standard civilian labor laws, so that is something a bit different.
And if you are in the military you are guaranteed (usually) 30 days off each year as a benefit and a whole bunch of other benefits explicitly due to your military service.
The pay isn't good, but it is all part of the package.
Interestingly, the DOD has increasingly hired civilian contractors in part because the labor laws as they apply to enlisted personnel are complicated enough that they don't want a private to flip hamburgers or clean toilets (except perhaps as a part of a punishment).
It is cheaper and easier to simply hire a civilian to do those kind of mundane jobs... and the civilians tend to stick around a bit longer than the typical rotation for enlisted folks.
Soldiers and other military personnel also know full well that they will be called upon to make some significant sacrifices for their job... which is explicitly why people are willing to join up with the service in the first place.Police and law enforcement officers?
Yeah, they work ungodly shifts and are often expected to be on call..... but I don't know of any salaried police officers.
Perhaps the "brass" at police departments might be salaried (if it is a large major metro department or if you are the "chief"), but it is common to see cities complain about how their police budget is gone due to a significant amount of overtime that has to be paid.
While pay for being a police officer isn't the greatest, they do get paid fairly well and have other "fringe" benefits.I just don't see comparing any of these experiences to being an IT guy who is salaried but gets dumped on by all comers and no respect, and no extra money for being essentially a peon to clean up somebody else's mess, and to do that all all hours of the day without any extra compensation.
If you are a well paid geek and you signed up for the job knowing that would be the nature of the job, that is another story.... but it doesn't sound like that was the case in this situation.
There are also specific labor laws regarding information technology workers for overtime that also must be followed... regardless of if the person is a contractor or normal employee.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273264</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273648</id>
	<title>Yes you should get paid</title>
	<author>future assassin</author>
	<datestamp>1259571720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you are on call beyond 40 hours per week and unless you were retarded to have taken the job knowing you're not gonna get paid pas the 40 hours then  then you have to get paid.</p><p>A friend of mine works for a water filtration company, he was asked if he wanted to be on call. He said yes and he get paid double time for the on call and if its on call for more then certain amount of hours it goes up from there.</p><p>If the employer wants to make money of me past the 40 hours per week they better pay their share other wise I ain't putting out.</p><p>Why the hell would anyone want to be such a slave?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you are on call beyond 40 hours per week and unless you were retarded to have taken the job knowing you 're not gon na get paid pas the 40 hours then then you have to get paid.A friend of mine works for a water filtration company , he was asked if he wanted to be on call .
He said yes and he get paid double time for the on call and if its on call for more then certain amount of hours it goes up from there.If the employer wants to make money of me past the 40 hours per week they better pay their share other wise I ai n't putting out.Why the hell would anyone want to be such a slave ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you are on call beyond 40 hours per week and unless you were retarded to have taken the job knowing you're not gonna get paid pas the 40 hours then  then you have to get paid.A friend of mine works for a water filtration company, he was asked if he wanted to be on call.
He said yes and he get paid double time for the on call and if its on call for more then certain amount of hours it goes up from there.If the employer wants to make money of me past the 40 hours per week they better pay their share other wise I ain't putting out.Why the hell would anyone want to be such a slave?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275548</id>
	<title>Should be paid</title>
	<author>lyallp</author>
	<datestamp>1259578980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You have a 40 hour a week job, you turn up and *work* 40 hours - more than likely, more than that but do you get paid overtime? Probably not, particularly in the IT industry.</p><p>You go home, you have a phone, you have to have a laptop and possibly a phone connection nearby (depends if your mobile is your modem), you are expected to lug the phone/laptop everywhere, just in case.</p><p>You can't go to the cinema (that means you have to turn off the mobile), you can't go to the pub with your mates and have a good time (can't get drunk), you probably won't get a full nights sleep when the phone calls arrive. You WORK when the calls do arrive, for however long it takes to get the job done and you are expected to turn up at work, ON TIME, next day, to resume your 40+ hour working week,  and you are expected to NOT get paid?</p><p>What sort of morons are these that say you should not get paid.</p><p>We work to live - we don't live to work. That, my friend, is slavery.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You have a 40 hour a week job , you turn up and * work * 40 hours - more than likely , more than that but do you get paid overtime ?
Probably not , particularly in the IT industry.You go home , you have a phone , you have to have a laptop and possibly a phone connection nearby ( depends if your mobile is your modem ) , you are expected to lug the phone/laptop everywhere , just in case.You ca n't go to the cinema ( that means you have to turn off the mobile ) , you ca n't go to the pub with your mates and have a good time ( ca n't get drunk ) , you probably wo n't get a full nights sleep when the phone calls arrive .
You WORK when the calls do arrive , for however long it takes to get the job done and you are expected to turn up at work , ON TIME , next day , to resume your 40 + hour working week , and you are expected to NOT get paid ? What sort of morons are these that say you should not get paid.We work to live - we do n't live to work .
That , my friend , is slavery .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You have a 40 hour a week job, you turn up and *work* 40 hours - more than likely, more than that but do you get paid overtime?
Probably not, particularly in the IT industry.You go home, you have a phone, you have to have a laptop and possibly a phone connection nearby (depends if your mobile is your modem), you are expected to lug the phone/laptop everywhere, just in case.You can't go to the cinema (that means you have to turn off the mobile), you can't go to the pub with your mates and have a good time (can't get drunk), you probably won't get a full nights sleep when the phone calls arrive.
You WORK when the calls do arrive, for however long it takes to get the job done and you are expected to turn up at work, ON TIME, next day, to resume your 40+ hour working week,  and you are expected to NOT get paid?What sort of morons are these that say you should not get paid.We work to live - we don't live to work.
That, my friend, is slavery.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30294024</id>
	<title>No fires, no pay? I don't think so</title>
	<author>John Jorsett</author>
	<datestamp>1259693340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>'Many companies see the on-call issue as analogous to a fire fighter's job. Most of the time, a fire fighter is off-duty but on call, hanging around the firehouse, cooking, sleeping, or whatever.</i> </p><p>And if no fires occur, do firefighters not get paid that day? I already know the answer to that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>'Many companies see the on-call issue as analogous to a fire fighter 's job .
Most of the time , a fire fighter is off-duty but on call , hanging around the firehouse , cooking , sleeping , or whatever .
And if no fires occur , do firefighters not get paid that day ?
I already know the answer to that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>'Many companies see the on-call issue as analogous to a fire fighter's job.
Most of the time, a fire fighter is off-duty but on call, hanging around the firehouse, cooking, sleeping, or whatever.
And if no fires occur, do firefighters not get paid that day?
I already know the answer to that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273838</id>
	<title>1-900-TECHNOW just $2.50/minute!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259572320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1-900-TECHNOW just $2.50/minute!</p><p>That's exactly how it should work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1-900-TECHNOW just $ 2.50/minute ! That 's exactly how it should work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1-900-TECHNOW just $2.50/minute!That's exactly how it should work.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30279898</id>
	<title>The firefighter example was an odd choice</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259607960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As the lawyer himself said: "Should he be compensated for the times when he is available but not busy?"  In the case of a firefighter the answer is emphatically yes AND they only work a regular shift.  Firefighters (at least where I'm from) work regular hours during which they can be dispatched.  When they are not working, they are free (for example) to go to a birthday party and get drunk.</p><p>Having someone on call without compensation (whether that is overtime when the call comes in or a per diem) is ethically wrong and professionally stupid.  When my employers want to be able to contact me in an emergency I offer them column A and column B:  they can pay for an SLA or they can take pot luck.  If an employer expects me to keep my phone on, stay in cell range, keep my laptop on hand, not drink or smoke etc. they can pay me for the inconvenience.  That also means that we can make arrangements to cover gaps (for example if I'm going camping or getting married) with clear boundaries.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As the lawyer himself said : " Should he be compensated for the times when he is available but not busy ?
" In the case of a firefighter the answer is emphatically yes AND they only work a regular shift .
Firefighters ( at least where I 'm from ) work regular hours during which they can be dispatched .
When they are not working , they are free ( for example ) to go to a birthday party and get drunk.Having someone on call without compensation ( whether that is overtime when the call comes in or a per diem ) is ethically wrong and professionally stupid .
When my employers want to be able to contact me in an emergency I offer them column A and column B : they can pay for an SLA or they can take pot luck .
If an employer expects me to keep my phone on , stay in cell range , keep my laptop on hand , not drink or smoke etc .
they can pay me for the inconvenience .
That also means that we can make arrangements to cover gaps ( for example if I 'm going camping or getting married ) with clear boundaries .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As the lawyer himself said: "Should he be compensated for the times when he is available but not busy?
"  In the case of a firefighter the answer is emphatically yes AND they only work a regular shift.
Firefighters (at least where I'm from) work regular hours during which they can be dispatched.
When they are not working, they are free (for example) to go to a birthday party and get drunk.Having someone on call without compensation (whether that is overtime when the call comes in or a per diem) is ethically wrong and professionally stupid.
When my employers want to be able to contact me in an emergency I offer them column A and column B:  they can pay for an SLA or they can take pot luck.
If an employer expects me to keep my phone on, stay in cell range, keep my laptop on hand, not drink or smoke etc.
they can pay me for the inconvenience.
That also means that we can make arrangements to cover gaps (for example if I'm going camping or getting married) with clear boundaries.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30277178</id>
	<title>Lets look at that again</title>
	<author>Xeno man</author>
	<datestamp>1259585220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Many companies see the on-call issue as analogous to a fire fighter's job. Most of the time, a fire fighter is off-duty but on call, hanging around the firehouse, cooking, sleeping, or whatever. What that person really gets paid for is the relatively small, but crucial, amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax. A webmaster, likewise, has slow times and busy times.'"</p></div><p>Fire fighters may not be paid over time, but they are given their own fire hall to use. In that they usually have a lot of entertainment like tv's with cable and DVD's to watch. Usually there is a ping pong table or maybe even a pool table or other gaming platforms. They get beds to sleep in and a whole kitchen to use to cook what ever they want.

Now you want your IT guy to be on call 24/7, what exactly have you given him to be happy? What perks do they enjoy for their services?

How many techs are thinking about the vending machine and microwave they have been living on that are wondering if they should have been fire fighters instead?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Many companies see the on-call issue as analogous to a fire fighter 's job .
Most of the time , a fire fighter is off-duty but on call , hanging around the firehouse , cooking , sleeping , or whatever .
What that person really gets paid for is the relatively small , but crucial , amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax .
A webmaster , likewise , has slow times and busy times .
' " Fire fighters may not be paid over time , but they are given their own fire hall to use .
In that they usually have a lot of entertainment like tv 's with cable and DVD 's to watch .
Usually there is a ping pong table or maybe even a pool table or other gaming platforms .
They get beds to sleep in and a whole kitchen to use to cook what ever they want .
Now you want your IT guy to be on call 24/7 , what exactly have you given him to be happy ?
What perks do they enjoy for their services ?
How many techs are thinking about the vending machine and microwave they have been living on that are wondering if they should have been fire fighters instead ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many companies see the on-call issue as analogous to a fire fighter's job.
Most of the time, a fire fighter is off-duty but on call, hanging around the firehouse, cooking, sleeping, or whatever.
What that person really gets paid for is the relatively small, but crucial, amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax.
A webmaster, likewise, has slow times and busy times.
'"Fire fighters may not be paid over time, but they are given their own fire hall to use.
In that they usually have a lot of entertainment like tv's with cable and DVD's to watch.
Usually there is a ping pong table or maybe even a pool table or other gaming platforms.
They get beds to sleep in and a whole kitchen to use to cook what ever they want.
Now you want your IT guy to be on call 24/7, what exactly have you given him to be happy?
What perks do they enjoy for their services?
How many techs are thinking about the vending machine and microwave they have been living on that are wondering if they should have been fire fighters instead?
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30284968</id>
	<title>Absolutely should be paid.</title>
	<author>Maxo-Texas</author>
	<datestamp>1259690580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Leave any job with unpaid overtime.<br>Fail at unpaid overtime.</p><p>This is one of the reasons I left IT as a developer.</p><p>We were expected to work holidays and weekends while the rest of the business was not.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Leave any job with unpaid overtime.Fail at unpaid overtime.This is one of the reasons I left IT as a developer.We were expected to work holidays and weekends while the rest of the business was not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Leave any job with unpaid overtime.Fail at unpaid overtime.This is one of the reasons I left IT as a developer.We were expected to work holidays and weekends while the rest of the business was not.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275746</id>
	<title>Let me just step right in it here, up to my knees</title>
	<author>rickb928</author>
	<datestamp>1259579700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And point out that:</p><p>- The post indicates this is an independent webmaster.<br>- Their client expects 24-hour service.</p><p>This is a case of not setting proper expectations.</p><p>On the other hand, this is the dilemma of the sole proprieter.  I have many friends that work on their own.  Those that deliver mission-critical (real or perceived) services find that they are called out at all hours, and suffer because of it.  This is their single greatest dis-satisfaction driver, both for them and for their clients.</p><p>The only solution I've seen work is for them to get help to share the load.  I've done them favors in the past, covering overnights whehn their wives were delivering, for instance, or to give them a day or two off.   But this is the road you choose when you go out 'on your own'.</p><p>Now, the ones who don't deliver 'mission-critical' services, they set expectations and get time off.  Unless they suck, in which case they work forever 'cause they can't get it done any other way.  Most of them came to work for me at some point.  And left.</p><p>The upside for the 'on your own' type?  If they are any good, they can make good money, at the expense of no life.</p><p>Not a roll of the dice.  More like picking the card.</p><p>And I feel your pain.  I was in 24/7/365 support for 4+ years, and the client was without humor or patience, no matter if the problem was their error or not.  Finally they decided to take their IT department in-house.  It was music to my ears to hear of the full-timers who whined they got no time off.  Turns out I didn't suck after all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And point out that : - The post indicates this is an independent webmaster.- Their client expects 24-hour service.This is a case of not setting proper expectations.On the other hand , this is the dilemma of the sole proprieter .
I have many friends that work on their own .
Those that deliver mission-critical ( real or perceived ) services find that they are called out at all hours , and suffer because of it .
This is their single greatest dis-satisfaction driver , both for them and for their clients.The only solution I 've seen work is for them to get help to share the load .
I 've done them favors in the past , covering overnights whehn their wives were delivering , for instance , or to give them a day or two off .
But this is the road you choose when you go out 'on your own'.Now , the ones who do n't deliver 'mission-critical ' services , they set expectations and get time off .
Unless they suck , in which case they work forever 'cause they ca n't get it done any other way .
Most of them came to work for me at some point .
And left.The upside for the 'on your own ' type ?
If they are any good , they can make good money , at the expense of no life.Not a roll of the dice .
More like picking the card.And I feel your pain .
I was in 24/7/365 support for 4 + years , and the client was without humor or patience , no matter if the problem was their error or not .
Finally they decided to take their IT department in-house .
It was music to my ears to hear of the full-timers who whined they got no time off .
Turns out I did n't suck after all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And point out that:- The post indicates this is an independent webmaster.- Their client expects 24-hour service.This is a case of not setting proper expectations.On the other hand, this is the dilemma of the sole proprieter.
I have many friends that work on their own.
Those that deliver mission-critical (real or perceived) services find that they are called out at all hours, and suffer because of it.
This is their single greatest dis-satisfaction driver, both for them and for their clients.The only solution I've seen work is for them to get help to share the load.
I've done them favors in the past, covering overnights whehn their wives were delivering, for instance, or to give them a day or two off.
But this is the road you choose when you go out 'on your own'.Now, the ones who don't deliver 'mission-critical' services, they set expectations and get time off.
Unless they suck, in which case they work forever 'cause they can't get it done any other way.
Most of them came to work for me at some point.
And left.The upside for the 'on your own' type?
If they are any good, they can make good money, at the expense of no life.Not a roll of the dice.
More like picking the card.And I feel your pain.
I was in 24/7/365 support for 4+ years, and the client was without humor or patience, no matter if the problem was their error or not.
Finally they decided to take their IT department in-house.
It was music to my ears to hear of the full-timers who whined they got no time off.
Turns out I didn't suck after all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278828</id>
	<title>on-call</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259597700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I was an Operations Network Engineer at a Fortune 500 company I was paid $100 a week to carry the pager if there were no pages during the week.  For<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.5 - 7 hours it was $250, 7.5 - 13.5 it was $500, and 14+ was $750.  If you got paged on a holiday it was $750 for that day, plus whatever for the week outside of that holiday.</p><p>I am no longer on call since I moved to the Network Design team, but I am occasionally contacted after hours for escalations.  I still get to file the hours for those incidents.</p><p>The worst part was the rotation schedule for me.  My team decided that they wanted 2 engineers on call at any time, so it halved the rotation date.  Rather than every 10 weeks, it was every 5 weeks... and that was too much of a burden.</p><p>I wouldn't consider a new job with an on-call obligation unless it paid very well, or if I was really hard up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was an Operations Network Engineer at a Fortune 500 company I was paid $ 100 a week to carry the pager if there were no pages during the week .
For .5 - 7 hours it was $ 250 , 7.5 - 13.5 it was $ 500 , and 14 + was $ 750 .
If you got paged on a holiday it was $ 750 for that day , plus whatever for the week outside of that holiday.I am no longer on call since I moved to the Network Design team , but I am occasionally contacted after hours for escalations .
I still get to file the hours for those incidents.The worst part was the rotation schedule for me .
My team decided that they wanted 2 engineers on call at any time , so it halved the rotation date .
Rather than every 10 weeks , it was every 5 weeks... and that was too much of a burden.I would n't consider a new job with an on-call obligation unless it paid very well , or if I was really hard up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was an Operations Network Engineer at a Fortune 500 company I was paid $100 a week to carry the pager if there were no pages during the week.
For .5 - 7 hours it was $250, 7.5 - 13.5 it was $500, and 14+ was $750.
If you got paged on a holiday it was $750 for that day, plus whatever for the week outside of that holiday.I am no longer on call since I moved to the Network Design team, but I am occasionally contacted after hours for escalations.
I still get to file the hours for those incidents.The worst part was the rotation schedule for me.
My team decided that they wanted 2 engineers on call at any time, so it halved the rotation date.
Rather than every 10 weeks, it was every 5 weeks... and that was too much of a burden.I wouldn't consider a new job with an on-call obligation unless it paid very well, or if I was really hard up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30279380</id>
	<title>Re:Cut and Dry here</title>
	<author>cstacy</author>
	<datestamp>1259602860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Many companies will say "you're salary, take it or leave it" but that's against the law.</p></div><p>This is very common, and nobody is going to rock the boat and risk getting fired over it.   A typical example is: regular hours are 9-5, plus you are assigned on-call duties for 7x24 coverage for a week or two (then off-call for a week).  While on-call you must respond within 10 minutes (max) and get on a high-speed Internet computer to do the work.  Typically there will be 2 or 3 calls each night ranging from 20 minutes to all-night.   You are still required to be present for your 9-5 day shift.   There is no compensation beyond salary for any of this.  You are an exempt full-time employee.  One whose health is seriously impacted.  And the money is not good.</p><p>I'm thinking of some of the major financial institutions here, as well as small companies.  Even though the financial institutions are continuously (and in real-time, even) audited up the yingyang, there doesn't seem to be any interest in whether these employment practices might not be legal.</p><p>Whenever I have suggested to my friends that they are being taken advantage of, and that it might even be illegal, they express terror at the prospect of "making trouble" and risking their jobs.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Many companies will say " you 're salary , take it or leave it " but that 's against the law.This is very common , and nobody is going to rock the boat and risk getting fired over it .
A typical example is : regular hours are 9-5 , plus you are assigned on-call duties for 7x24 coverage for a week or two ( then off-call for a week ) .
While on-call you must respond within 10 minutes ( max ) and get on a high-speed Internet computer to do the work .
Typically there will be 2 or 3 calls each night ranging from 20 minutes to all-night .
You are still required to be present for your 9-5 day shift .
There is no compensation beyond salary for any of this .
You are an exempt full-time employee .
One whose health is seriously impacted .
And the money is not good.I 'm thinking of some of the major financial institutions here , as well as small companies .
Even though the financial institutions are continuously ( and in real-time , even ) audited up the yingyang , there does n't seem to be any interest in whether these employment practices might not be legal.Whenever I have suggested to my friends that they are being taken advantage of , and that it might even be illegal , they express terror at the prospect of " making trouble " and risking their jobs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many companies will say "you're salary, take it or leave it" but that's against the law.This is very common, and nobody is going to rock the boat and risk getting fired over it.
A typical example is: regular hours are 9-5, plus you are assigned on-call duties for 7x24 coverage for a week or two (then off-call for a week).
While on-call you must respond within 10 minutes (max) and get on a high-speed Internet computer to do the work.
Typically there will be 2 or 3 calls each night ranging from 20 minutes to all-night.
You are still required to be present for your 9-5 day shift.
There is no compensation beyond salary for any of this.
You are an exempt full-time employee.
One whose health is seriously impacted.
And the money is not good.I'm thinking of some of the major financial institutions here, as well as small companies.
Even though the financial institutions are continuously (and in real-time, even) audited up the yingyang, there doesn't seem to be any interest in whether these employment practices might not be legal.Whenever I have suggested to my friends that they are being taken advantage of, and that it might even be illegal, they express terror at the prospect of "making trouble" and risking their jobs.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274900</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30283900</id>
	<title>If you don't pay me, you don't get me</title>
	<author>swordgeek</author>
	<datestamp>1259685960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Now I have to admit up-front that I am presently working for a company with very generous on-call benefits, and appreciate them a great deal.</p><p>However, it's very simple for me: If I'm not getting paid to carry a pager, I'm not carrying a pager. I see that some people aren't even getting paid to do work after hours, which means that fixing other people's computers is apparently your hobby. Hope you're enjoying it. I'd rather play with my son.</p><p>If a company needs you, they need to pay you. If they need you to be available for emergencies, then they need to pay to tie you down. If they want your number but accept that you may or may not answer it, then you're probably not providing a pay-worthy service after hours.</p><p>When I carry the pager, I'm required to stay sober, available, and local. I can't go out of town, I can't go to an event where pagers have to be turned off, and similar things. This is something I'm willing to do part-time for compensation. I won't do it 24/7/365, and I won't do it for free. Anyone who does is selling themselves short.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Now I have to admit up-front that I am presently working for a company with very generous on-call benefits , and appreciate them a great deal.However , it 's very simple for me : If I 'm not getting paid to carry a pager , I 'm not carrying a pager .
I see that some people are n't even getting paid to do work after hours , which means that fixing other people 's computers is apparently your hobby .
Hope you 're enjoying it .
I 'd rather play with my son.If a company needs you , they need to pay you .
If they need you to be available for emergencies , then they need to pay to tie you down .
If they want your number but accept that you may or may not answer it , then you 're probably not providing a pay-worthy service after hours.When I carry the pager , I 'm required to stay sober , available , and local .
I ca n't go out of town , I ca n't go to an event where pagers have to be turned off , and similar things .
This is something I 'm willing to do part-time for compensation .
I wo n't do it 24/7/365 , and I wo n't do it for free .
Anyone who does is selling themselves short .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now I have to admit up-front that I am presently working for a company with very generous on-call benefits, and appreciate them a great deal.However, it's very simple for me: If I'm not getting paid to carry a pager, I'm not carrying a pager.
I see that some people aren't even getting paid to do work after hours, which means that fixing other people's computers is apparently your hobby.
Hope you're enjoying it.
I'd rather play with my son.If a company needs you, they need to pay you.
If they need you to be available for emergencies, then they need to pay to tie you down.
If they want your number but accept that you may or may not answer it, then you're probably not providing a pay-worthy service after hours.When I carry the pager, I'm required to stay sober, available, and local.
I can't go out of town, I can't go to an event where pagers have to be turned off, and similar things.
This is something I'm willing to do part-time for compensation.
I won't do it 24/7/365, and I won't do it for free.
Anyone who does is selling themselves short.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276296</id>
	<title>Re:NOT GONNA DO IT!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259581560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was in the same position. Instead my mentor and I worked out all the bugs from the system and improved it to the point where we hardly ever get support calls.<br>This made our positions redundant but we both got enough exposure with clients that we both went on to better jobs.<br>Granted that everyone's situation is different but I fully agree with you.<br>It's not worth the insanity. For 3 months, I was constantly paged at 2am 3-4 times a week. (and I realize that I'm one of the more fortunately on call guys)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was in the same position .
Instead my mentor and I worked out all the bugs from the system and improved it to the point where we hardly ever get support calls.This made our positions redundant but we both got enough exposure with clients that we both went on to better jobs.Granted that everyone 's situation is different but I fully agree with you.It 's not worth the insanity .
For 3 months , I was constantly paged at 2am 3-4 times a week .
( and I realize that I 'm one of the more fortunately on call guys )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was in the same position.
Instead my mentor and I worked out all the bugs from the system and improved it to the point where we hardly ever get support calls.This made our positions redundant but we both got enough exposure with clients that we both went on to better jobs.Granted that everyone's situation is different but I fully agree with you.It's not worth the insanity.
For 3 months, I was constantly paged at 2am 3-4 times a week.
(and I realize that I'm one of the more fortunately on call guys)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273284</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273586</id>
	<title>Most every comment I've read is wrong</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259614740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>It really depends on the laws of your state.  People talk about salaried and hourly but you really need to look at if the position is exempt or non-exempt.  Plus let's not forget that many, MANY techies have successfully sued for unpaid overtime even though they were technically "salaried" (example:  Electronics Arts programmers.  Currently webmasters at Wells Fargo are starting a class action suit, which I am a plaintiff in, regarding unpaid overtime).

Now if you're a contractor and you're letting the customer dictate this to you, then you need to decide how important (i.e. well paying) a customer they are.

But if you are an employee, if you're non-exempt (hourly) then they are likely violating state labor laws by not paying overtime for any hours worked past your normal 40 per week.

And if you are exempt then it should be looked at if the position SHOULD be exempt based upon your state labor laws (in IL the amount of autonomy and decision making involved in the job matters in this regard).  Also to take into account is if the position does basically the same work as an hourly position.  These laws are in place so businesses can't take hourly employees, say "you're exempt now", and not pay the OT work.

I would get in touch with your state labor organization and find out how the laws apply to you.

BTW, in my current position, we are paid as described above.  Despite being exempt, we are paid $2 an hour for carrying a pager, and 1.5x for any hours spent working while "on call"</htmltext>
<tokenext>It really depends on the laws of your state .
People talk about salaried and hourly but you really need to look at if the position is exempt or non-exempt .
Plus let 's not forget that many , MANY techies have successfully sued for unpaid overtime even though they were technically " salaried " ( example : Electronics Arts programmers .
Currently webmasters at Wells Fargo are starting a class action suit , which I am a plaintiff in , regarding unpaid overtime ) .
Now if you 're a contractor and you 're letting the customer dictate this to you , then you need to decide how important ( i.e .
well paying ) a customer they are .
But if you are an employee , if you 're non-exempt ( hourly ) then they are likely violating state labor laws by not paying overtime for any hours worked past your normal 40 per week .
And if you are exempt then it should be looked at if the position SHOULD be exempt based upon your state labor laws ( in IL the amount of autonomy and decision making involved in the job matters in this regard ) .
Also to take into account is if the position does basically the same work as an hourly position .
These laws are in place so businesses ca n't take hourly employees , say " you 're exempt now " , and not pay the OT work .
I would get in touch with your state labor organization and find out how the laws apply to you .
BTW , in my current position , we are paid as described above .
Despite being exempt , we are paid $ 2 an hour for carrying a pager , and 1.5x for any hours spent working while " on call "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It really depends on the laws of your state.
People talk about salaried and hourly but you really need to look at if the position is exempt or non-exempt.
Plus let's not forget that many, MANY techies have successfully sued for unpaid overtime even though they were technically "salaried" (example:  Electronics Arts programmers.
Currently webmasters at Wells Fargo are starting a class action suit, which I am a plaintiff in, regarding unpaid overtime).
Now if you're a contractor and you're letting the customer dictate this to you, then you need to decide how important (i.e.
well paying) a customer they are.
But if you are an employee, if you're non-exempt (hourly) then they are likely violating state labor laws by not paying overtime for any hours worked past your normal 40 per week.
And if you are exempt then it should be looked at if the position SHOULD be exempt based upon your state labor laws (in IL the amount of autonomy and decision making involved in the job matters in this regard).
Also to take into account is if the position does basically the same work as an hourly position.
These laws are in place so businesses can't take hourly employees, say "you're exempt now", and not pay the OT work.
I would get in touch with your state labor organization and find out how the laws apply to you.
BTW, in my current position, we are paid as described above.
Despite being exempt, we are paid $2 an hour for carrying a pager, and 1.5x for any hours spent working while "on call"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275508</id>
	<title>conditions that have applied to me</title>
	<author>pbjones</author>
	<datestamp>1259578800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Overpaid - in the original contract it stated that I was paid above normal rates to cover recalls. They had to understand that I can eat an drink and do what I want outside normal hours, but it they can contact me, then I'm theirs, free.  Restricted - must respond with 30 minutes, must be contactable, must be sober, but paid at a small hourly rate for doing so, and then paid normal/overtime rates when I respond to a call. Recall - go and live my life but respond to a recall if they can contact me, paid normal rates/overtime if I am recalled.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Overpaid - in the original contract it stated that I was paid above normal rates to cover recalls .
They had to understand that I can eat an drink and do what I want outside normal hours , but it they can contact me , then I 'm theirs , free .
Restricted - must respond with 30 minutes , must be contactable , must be sober , but paid at a small hourly rate for doing so , and then paid normal/overtime rates when I respond to a call .
Recall - go and live my life but respond to a recall if they can contact me , paid normal rates/overtime if I am recalled .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Overpaid - in the original contract it stated that I was paid above normal rates to cover recalls.
They had to understand that I can eat an drink and do what I want outside normal hours, but it they can contact me, then I'm theirs, free.
Restricted - must respond with 30 minutes, must be contactable, must be sober, but paid at a small hourly rate for doing so, and then paid normal/overtime rates when I respond to a call.
Recall - go and live my life but respond to a recall if they can contact me, paid normal rates/overtime if I am recalled.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278446</id>
	<title>The lawyer is full of it</title>
	<author>wilson\_c</author>
	<datestamp>1259594640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think this attorney is speaking out of his ass.  When a firefighter is at the station, they are on duty.  It doesn't matter if they are sleeping, cooking, or watching tv, they are on duty and being paid for every minute of their time.  When they can go home and do whatever they want with whomever, then they are off.  It's that simple.</p><p>I know that in Los Angeles where I live, firefighters can make huge portions of their wages in overtime because it's still cheaper than the department hiring additional employees.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think this attorney is speaking out of his ass .
When a firefighter is at the station , they are on duty .
It does n't matter if they are sleeping , cooking , or watching tv , they are on duty and being paid for every minute of their time .
When they can go home and do whatever they want with whomever , then they are off .
It 's that simple.I know that in Los Angeles where I live , firefighters can make huge portions of their wages in overtime because it 's still cheaper than the department hiring additional employees .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think this attorney is speaking out of his ass.
When a firefighter is at the station, they are on duty.
It doesn't matter if they are sleeping, cooking, or watching tv, they are on duty and being paid for every minute of their time.
When they can go home and do whatever they want with whomever, then they are off.
It's that simple.I know that in Los Angeles where I live, firefighters can make huge portions of their wages in overtime because it's still cheaper than the department hiring additional employees.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278028</id>
	<title>Our Implementation</title>
	<author>bradray</author>
	<datestamp>1259590500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>We run a small IT services firm.  Small enough that "management" does a fair portion of the work.  What we came up with is that every employee can choose whether or not they want to be on-call (with absolutely no pressure to be in our out of the schedule).  We then scheduled the people to be on call without pay.  If a call happened to come in during off hours, we would charge double our normal rates for the service, and the technician performing the labor would keep half.  If you want to have the chance of making extra money, they you get participate.  If your life is too busy to be on call: opt out.  So far so good, but then we don't get a lot of calls during holidays.</htmltext>
<tokenext>We run a small IT services firm .
Small enough that " management " does a fair portion of the work .
What we came up with is that every employee can choose whether or not they want to be on-call ( with absolutely no pressure to be in our out of the schedule ) .
We then scheduled the people to be on call without pay .
If a call happened to come in during off hours , we would charge double our normal rates for the service , and the technician performing the labor would keep half .
If you want to have the chance of making extra money , they you get participate .
If your life is too busy to be on call : opt out .
So far so good , but then we do n't get a lot of calls during holidays .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We run a small IT services firm.
Small enough that "management" does a fair portion of the work.
What we came up with is that every employee can choose whether or not they want to be on-call (with absolutely no pressure to be in our out of the schedule).
We then scheduled the people to be on call without pay.
If a call happened to come in during off hours, we would charge double our normal rates for the service, and the technician performing the labor would keep half.
If you want to have the chance of making extra money, they you get participate.
If your life is too busy to be on call: opt out.
So far so good, but then we don't get a lot of calls during holidays.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274016</id>
	<title>Heck Yes</title>
	<author>boxxa</author>
	<datestamp>1259572980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you work in a support field, you are on call. I have worked in data and voice engineering since I was in college and have been required to be on call as the systems you maintain are business critical. One job was not paid however the one I currently am with now pays 3 extra hours of normal wages the week you are on call for the inconvenience and every call that comes in from the automated system that requires work you are allowed to take over time on.

These customers rely on their systems to do business so any smart company will pay their employees accordingly to take care of them. Money doesn't help with the pain of being woken up in the middle of the night but you at least get more willing and helpful employees IMO and experience</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you work in a support field , you are on call .
I have worked in data and voice engineering since I was in college and have been required to be on call as the systems you maintain are business critical .
One job was not paid however the one I currently am with now pays 3 extra hours of normal wages the week you are on call for the inconvenience and every call that comes in from the automated system that requires work you are allowed to take over time on .
These customers rely on their systems to do business so any smart company will pay their employees accordingly to take care of them .
Money does n't help with the pain of being woken up in the middle of the night but you at least get more willing and helpful employees IMO and experience</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you work in a support field, you are on call.
I have worked in data and voice engineering since I was in college and have been required to be on call as the systems you maintain are business critical.
One job was not paid however the one I currently am with now pays 3 extra hours of normal wages the week you are on call for the inconvenience and every call that comes in from the automated system that requires work you are allowed to take over time on.
These customers rely on their systems to do business so any smart company will pay their employees accordingly to take care of them.
Money doesn't help with the pain of being woken up in the middle of the night but you at least get more willing and helpful employees IMO and experience</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278316</id>
	<title>Re:Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>roju</author>
	<datestamp>1259593080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are serious problems with a setup that could require someone to work 24 hours straight. The quality of the work will drastically suffer compared to a system with much shorter work periods.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are serious problems with a setup that could require someone to work 24 hours straight .
The quality of the work will drastically suffer compared to a system with much shorter work periods .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are serious problems with a setup that could require someone to work 24 hours straight.
The quality of the work will drastically suffer compared to a system with much shorter work periods.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274626</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273426</id>
	<title>Firefighter Analogy is flawed.</title>
	<author>HockeyPuck</author>
	<datestamp>1259614260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> 'Many companies see the on-call issue as analogous to a fire fighter's job. Most of the time, a fire fighter is off-duty but on call, hanging around the firehouse, cooking, sleeping, or whatever. What that person really gets paid for is the relatively small, but crucial, amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax.</p> </div><p>This is flawed, as in many fire departments or houses there are multiple crews.  You've got 3 days 'in the house' then 3 days 'at home' followed by '4 days in the house' then 4 days 'at home.'  When you're in the house, you're responsible for any and all calls that come in.  So firefighters get paid for the time they are in the house.  Just like most people are paid for the time they are in the office, but aren't paid for Saturdays and Sundays.</p><p>If he wants to correct the analogy, he should say that firefighters who are in the 'at home' phase, get called in, but don't get paid for it.  They do get paid for it, just like Police Officers that work overtime or off-shift.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>'Many companies see the on-call issue as analogous to a fire fighter 's job .
Most of the time , a fire fighter is off-duty but on call , hanging around the firehouse , cooking , sleeping , or whatever .
What that person really gets paid for is the relatively small , but crucial , amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax .
This is flawed , as in many fire departments or houses there are multiple crews .
You 've got 3 days 'in the house ' then 3 days 'at home ' followed by '4 days in the house ' then 4 days 'at home .
' When you 're in the house , you 're responsible for any and all calls that come in .
So firefighters get paid for the time they are in the house .
Just like most people are paid for the time they are in the office , but are n't paid for Saturdays and Sundays.If he wants to correct the analogy , he should say that firefighters who are in the 'at home ' phase , get called in , but do n't get paid for it .
They do get paid for it , just like Police Officers that work overtime or off-shift .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> 'Many companies see the on-call issue as analogous to a fire fighter's job.
Most of the time, a fire fighter is off-duty but on call, hanging around the firehouse, cooking, sleeping, or whatever.
What that person really gets paid for is the relatively small, but crucial, amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax.
This is flawed, as in many fire departments or houses there are multiple crews.
You've got 3 days 'in the house' then 3 days 'at home' followed by '4 days in the house' then 4 days 'at home.
'  When you're in the house, you're responsible for any and all calls that come in.
So firefighters get paid for the time they are in the house.
Just like most people are paid for the time they are in the office, but aren't paid for Saturdays and Sundays.If he wants to correct the analogy, he should say that firefighters who are in the 'at home' phase, get called in, but don't get paid for it.
They do get paid for it, just like Police Officers that work overtime or off-shift.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275050</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259577120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Usually if she gets called in, someone is dying. I would rarely, if ever, classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that"</p><p>You would think the above is true. But it often is not.</p><p>I have worked on call for IT duties and sometimes these web owners are losing "thousands of dollars a minute"... bla bla, etc.</p><p>Honestly, I think the owner of these companies are often more concerned about the time it takes getting their money flow fixed then hospital management would be about any one doctor being late for an on-call to assist overworked hospital staff. Given the same amount of delay to respond to these two things... the business owner would be more agitated.</p><p>Also, I generally think medical professionals are more pragmatic about the future. That is: everyone dies, but not all businesses go bankrupt.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Usually if she gets called in , someone is dying .
I would rarely , if ever , classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that " You would think the above is true .
But it often is not.I have worked on call for IT duties and sometimes these web owners are losing " thousands of dollars a minute " ... bla bla , etc.Honestly , I think the owner of these companies are often more concerned about the time it takes getting their money flow fixed then hospital management would be about any one doctor being late for an on-call to assist overworked hospital staff .
Given the same amount of delay to respond to these two things... the business owner would be more agitated.Also , I generally think medical professionals are more pragmatic about the future .
That is : everyone dies , but not all businesses go bankrupt .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Usually if she gets called in, someone is dying.
I would rarely, if ever, classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that"You would think the above is true.
But it often is not.I have worked on call for IT duties and sometimes these web owners are losing "thousands of dollars a minute"... bla bla, etc.Honestly, I think the owner of these companies are often more concerned about the time it takes getting their money flow fixed then hospital management would be about any one doctor being late for an on-call to assist overworked hospital staff.
Given the same amount of delay to respond to these two things... the business owner would be more agitated.Also, I generally think medical professionals are more pragmatic about the future.
That is: everyone dies, but not all businesses go bankrupt.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278508</id>
	<title>Paid up front</title>
	<author>DizTorDed</author>
	<datestamp>1259595240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I get $50 a day for being on call then time and a half if I actually get called.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I get $ 50 a day for being on call then time and a half if I actually get called .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I get $50 a day for being on call then time and a half if I actually get called.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273812</id>
	<title>You won't be</title>
	<author>Is0m0rph</author>
	<datestamp>1259572260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You should get paid but I haven't found one place I worked as a salaried (exempt) software engineer that will pay you.  I was on call 24/7 for a good 10+ years without pay.  When I was hourly I was paid because I was non-exempt.  I have been woke up in the middle of the night countless times by people calling from Asia or Europe.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You should get paid but I have n't found one place I worked as a salaried ( exempt ) software engineer that will pay you .
I was on call 24/7 for a good 10 + years without pay .
When I was hourly I was paid because I was non-exempt .
I have been woke up in the middle of the night countless times by people calling from Asia or Europe .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You should get paid but I haven't found one place I worked as a salaried (exempt) software engineer that will pay you.
I was on call 24/7 for a good 10+ years without pay.
When I was hourly I was paid because I was non-exempt.
I have been woke up in the middle of the night countless times by people calling from Asia or Europe.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273410</id>
	<title>I would only trade free on call time</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259614200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For comp time during the work week/long weekends OR the potential work experience leading to something I could later do as a paid contractor.</p><p>Unpaid on-call time should only be used as a stepping stone for something better. If you don't see a better future with a company that may treat you better later or a potential bullet point on your resume, I would not do it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For comp time during the work week/long weekends OR the potential work experience leading to something I could later do as a paid contractor.Unpaid on-call time should only be used as a stepping stone for something better .
If you do n't see a better future with a company that may treat you better later or a potential bullet point on your resume , I would not do it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For comp time during the work week/long weekends OR the potential work experience leading to something I could later do as a paid contractor.Unpaid on-call time should only be used as a stepping stone for something better.
If you don't see a better future with a company that may treat you better later or a potential bullet point on your resume, I would not do it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275554</id>
	<title>Re:There seems to be some confusion here...</title>
	<author>slmdmd</author>
	<datestamp>1259578980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am in a similar 24/7 sysadmin position.  I am an hourly contractor and this is the best for such positions.  Any call received after working hours will trigger my billing meter.  July like a taxi meter the minimum for even a 5 mins call is 1 hour.  If you are an employee then you are screwed.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am in a similar 24/7 sysadmin position .
I am an hourly contractor and this is the best for such positions .
Any call received after working hours will trigger my billing meter .
July like a taxi meter the minimum for even a 5 mins call is 1 hour .
If you are an employee then you are screwed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am in a similar 24/7 sysadmin position.
I am an hourly contractor and this is the best for such positions.
Any call received after working hours will trigger my billing meter.
July like a taxi meter the minimum for even a 5 mins call is 1 hour.
If you are an employee then you are screwed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273750</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30280668</id>
	<title>On-Call isn't worth it</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259661360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unless your employer is well organized and they have a SANE operations department with tiered support organization... DO NOT AGREE TO GO ON-CALL.</p><p>I worked at a large company in a unix team (3 people) where it was required to carry a pager every third week.  The pager was hooked to 15 monitoring systems and was basically a catch all bucket for any kind of alert.  The pager would alert so often that you almost had to turn the damn thing off.</p><p>I remember waking up with the pager stuck to my chest because it kept going off every 15 minutes while I was sleep -- Apparently I would wake up just enough to check to see if the pager message was a critical alert...</p><p>I only lasted a year and a half in this job before i said SCREW IT and quit.  I should have quit much sooner because I will never get that year and half of my life back.  Also, this was a salary position where the pager duty time off hours was just apart of the salary -- yeah, total crap.  I slaved for this company and didn't receive one pay increase.</p><p>Life is too short to work insane on-call positions.... Don't do it and decide to live your life...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless your employer is well organized and they have a SANE operations department with tiered support organization... DO NOT AGREE TO GO ON-CALL.I worked at a large company in a unix team ( 3 people ) where it was required to carry a pager every third week .
The pager was hooked to 15 monitoring systems and was basically a catch all bucket for any kind of alert .
The pager would alert so often that you almost had to turn the damn thing off.I remember waking up with the pager stuck to my chest because it kept going off every 15 minutes while I was sleep -- Apparently I would wake up just enough to check to see if the pager message was a critical alert...I only lasted a year and a half in this job before i said SCREW IT and quit .
I should have quit much sooner because I will never get that year and half of my life back .
Also , this was a salary position where the pager duty time off hours was just apart of the salary -- yeah , total crap .
I slaved for this company and did n't receive one pay increase.Life is too short to work insane on-call positions.... Do n't do it and decide to live your life.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless your employer is well organized and they have a SANE operations department with tiered support organization... DO NOT AGREE TO GO ON-CALL.I worked at a large company in a unix team (3 people) where it was required to carry a pager every third week.
The pager was hooked to 15 monitoring systems and was basically a catch all bucket for any kind of alert.
The pager would alert so often that you almost had to turn the damn thing off.I remember waking up with the pager stuck to my chest because it kept going off every 15 minutes while I was sleep -- Apparently I would wake up just enough to check to see if the pager message was a critical alert...I only lasted a year and a half in this job before i said SCREW IT and quit.
I should have quit much sooner because I will never get that year and half of my life back.
Also, this was a salary position where the pager duty time off hours was just apart of the salary -- yeah, total crap.
I slaved for this company and didn't receive one pay increase.Life is too short to work insane on-call positions.... Don't do it and decide to live your life...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274184</id>
	<title>My world just got rocked!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259573580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What's this 40 hour a week thing? Was that a typo and he meant to say "day"?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What 's this 40 hour a week thing ?
Was that a typo and he meant to say " day " ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What's this 40 hour a week thing?
Was that a typo and he meant to say "day"?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273614</id>
	<title>Like it does in New Zealand...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259571600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Like it does in NZ:</p><p>Your company cannot *oblige* you to do overtime. They can request it, and would be required to pay you overtime for those periods during which you are on call.</p><p>It doesn't really matter whether you're working or not: if they want you to be available, they pay you for the time you make available.</p><p>You don't have to agree, and they can get in a world of hurt if they try to pressure or force you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Like it does in NZ : Your company can not * oblige * you to do overtime .
They can request it , and would be required to pay you overtime for those periods during which you are on call.It does n't really matter whether you 're working or not : if they want you to be available , they pay you for the time you make available.You do n't have to agree , and they can get in a world of hurt if they try to pressure or force you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Like it does in NZ:Your company cannot *oblige* you to do overtime.
They can request it, and would be required to pay you overtime for those periods during which you are on call.It doesn't really matter whether you're working or not: if they want you to be available, they pay you for the time you make available.You don't have to agree, and they can get in a world of hurt if they try to pressure or force you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273598</id>
	<title>On call</title>
	<author>pluther</author>
	<datestamp>1259614740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm a contractor, so I've worked for many different companies, 3-6 months at a time.  For the last several years I've made it clear, during the initial interview, that I'm <i>not</i> on call 24/7.</p><p>That said, the occasional night or weekend work is an expected part of our industry, and sometimes they need people to cover that time.  I also make clear that I understand that and will work with it.</p><p>My current company has no official on-call policy for my position, but the way it works out, if they call me when I'm not in the office, I'll answer if I'm not doing anything else, or return their calls when it's convenient for me.  (I'm a pretty typical nerd, so this works out to most of the time.)  If they do answer, I charge them for the time I actually spend working, a minimum of one hour.</p><p>If they want me standing by at night or over a weekend, that means I can't go out of town, or even out of the house for long. I'm not visiting friends, and I'm not running a D&amp;D game. Since I've given up plans I may have, they're paying me for that time, even if all I'm doing is sitting around at home playing video games, listening for the phone, and occasionally checking email.</p><p>These times need to be agreed to ahead of time, and it won't be every weekend. In such cases, I usually charge them normal rates for about half the hours I'm on call, or all of the hours if I'm actually working the majority of that time.  (If I'm sleeping, I'll only charge anything if they actually do call.)</p><p>So far, as long as I've stated what I expect up front, I've not had any complaints.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a contractor , so I 've worked for many different companies , 3-6 months at a time .
For the last several years I 've made it clear , during the initial interview , that I 'm not on call 24/7.That said , the occasional night or weekend work is an expected part of our industry , and sometimes they need people to cover that time .
I also make clear that I understand that and will work with it.My current company has no official on-call policy for my position , but the way it works out , if they call me when I 'm not in the office , I 'll answer if I 'm not doing anything else , or return their calls when it 's convenient for me .
( I 'm a pretty typical nerd , so this works out to most of the time .
) If they do answer , I charge them for the time I actually spend working , a minimum of one hour.If they want me standing by at night or over a weekend , that means I ca n't go out of town , or even out of the house for long .
I 'm not visiting friends , and I 'm not running a D&amp;D game .
Since I 've given up plans I may have , they 're paying me for that time , even if all I 'm doing is sitting around at home playing video games , listening for the phone , and occasionally checking email.These times need to be agreed to ahead of time , and it wo n't be every weekend .
In such cases , I usually charge them normal rates for about half the hours I 'm on call , or all of the hours if I 'm actually working the majority of that time .
( If I 'm sleeping , I 'll only charge anything if they actually do call .
) So far , as long as I 've stated what I expect up front , I 've not had any complaints .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a contractor, so I've worked for many different companies, 3-6 months at a time.
For the last several years I've made it clear, during the initial interview, that I'm not on call 24/7.That said, the occasional night or weekend work is an expected part of our industry, and sometimes they need people to cover that time.
I also make clear that I understand that and will work with it.My current company has no official on-call policy for my position, but the way it works out, if they call me when I'm not in the office, I'll answer if I'm not doing anything else, or return their calls when it's convenient for me.
(I'm a pretty typical nerd, so this works out to most of the time.
)  If they do answer, I charge them for the time I actually spend working, a minimum of one hour.If they want me standing by at night or over a weekend, that means I can't go out of town, or even out of the house for long.
I'm not visiting friends, and I'm not running a D&amp;D game.
Since I've given up plans I may have, they're paying me for that time, even if all I'm doing is sitting around at home playing video games, listening for the phone, and occasionally checking email.These times need to be agreed to ahead of time, and it won't be every weekend.
In such cases, I usually charge them normal rates for about half the hours I'm on call, or all of the hours if I'm actually working the majority of that time.
(If I'm sleeping, I'll only charge anything if they actually do call.
)So far, as long as I've stated what I expect up front, I've not had any complaints.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274614</id>
	<title>Lawyer's retainer?</title>
	<author>bokmann</author>
	<datestamp>1259575200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And does the lawyer offering this advice accept a retainer fee from his clients so that he can be on call for them?</p><p>24x7 support is costly in any business.  The firefighter is not an apt analogy... Is he expected to work an 8 hour day and THEN be on call for fires?</p><p>And is he serious when he thinks a firefighter is paid for only the small amount of time he is out firefighting?  If that were the case, I expect we would see a lot of financially insolvent firefighters-turned-pyromaniac in order to put their kids through college.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And does the lawyer offering this advice accept a retainer fee from his clients so that he can be on call for them ? 24x7 support is costly in any business .
The firefighter is not an apt analogy... Is he expected to work an 8 hour day and THEN be on call for fires ? And is he serious when he thinks a firefighter is paid for only the small amount of time he is out firefighting ?
If that were the case , I expect we would see a lot of financially insolvent firefighters-turned-pyromaniac in order to put their kids through college .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And does the lawyer offering this advice accept a retainer fee from his clients so that he can be on call for them?24x7 support is costly in any business.
The firefighter is not an apt analogy... Is he expected to work an 8 hour day and THEN be on call for fires?And is he serious when he thinks a firefighter is paid for only the small amount of time he is out firefighting?
If that were the case, I expect we would see a lot of financially insolvent firefighters-turned-pyromaniac in order to put their kids through college.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273468</id>
	<title>Quit or renegotiate.</title>
	<author>John Hasler</author>
	<datestamp>1259614380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; What on call policies are you used to...</p><p>Whatever is in the contract I agreed to.</p><p>&gt;<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...how should it work in an ideal world?</p><p>I should be paid an infinite amount of money for doing nothing.</p><p>When my father was "on call" for Michigan Bell he got his regular wages for his regular 40 hours plus double-time for the time he put in when actually called out (but of course he had a contract).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; What on call policies are you used to...Whatever is in the contract I agreed to. &gt; ...how should it work in an ideal world ? I should be paid an infinite amount of money for doing nothing.When my father was " on call " for Michigan Bell he got his regular wages for his regular 40 hours plus double-time for the time he put in when actually called out ( but of course he had a contract ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; What on call policies are you used to...Whatever is in the contract I agreed to.&gt; ...how should it work in an ideal world?I should be paid an infinite amount of money for doing nothing.When my father was "on call" for Michigan Bell he got his regular wages for his regular 40 hours plus double-time for the time he put in when actually called out (but of course he had a contract).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274690</id>
	<title>A good boss can really help</title>
	<author>nsanders</author>
	<datestamp>1259575500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm on call right now, actually. If I have a bad night, that requires me to be awake from 2am to 6am I will send an email saying I'll either be in for half day, working from home, or not at all. My boss will not ask any questions other than requesting a follow up email about the outage when I can.</p><p>If I work an over night at the data center that runs past 2am, we're given an automatic comp day. This is all "under the table". The bosses bosses boss has no real idea. Hell, even if he did he probably would have no problem with it. Having a boss who is willing at acknowledge the time you put in and grant you some liberty with that can really make up for the fact you don't get paid extra.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm on call right now , actually .
If I have a bad night , that requires me to be awake from 2am to 6am I will send an email saying I 'll either be in for half day , working from home , or not at all .
My boss will not ask any questions other than requesting a follow up email about the outage when I can.If I work an over night at the data center that runs past 2am , we 're given an automatic comp day .
This is all " under the table " .
The bosses bosses boss has no real idea .
Hell , even if he did he probably would have no problem with it .
Having a boss who is willing at acknowledge the time you put in and grant you some liberty with that can really make up for the fact you do n't get paid extra .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm on call right now, actually.
If I have a bad night, that requires me to be awake from 2am to 6am I will send an email saying I'll either be in for half day, working from home, or not at all.
My boss will not ask any questions other than requesting a follow up email about the outage when I can.If I work an over night at the data center that runs past 2am, we're given an automatic comp day.
This is all "under the table".
The bosses bosses boss has no real idea.
Hell, even if he did he probably would have no problem with it.
Having a boss who is willing at acknowledge the time you put in and grant you some liberty with that can really make up for the fact you don't get paid extra.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30277274</id>
	<title>Re:Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>Tiggan</author>
	<datestamp>1259585640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>THAN!  THAN!!!!!!  For the love of all things good and holy, the word is THAN!</htmltext>
<tokenext>THAN !
THAN ! ! ! ! ! ! For the love of all things good and holy , the word is THAN !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>THAN!
THAN!!!!!!  For the love of all things good and holy, the word is THAN!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274626</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276330</id>
	<title>Here is an actual, reasonable policy</title>
	<author>dbc</author>
	<datestamp>1259581680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This question seems to be a FAQ and SlashDot.  Here is an approximation of what I posted last time.  It is/was the actual policy at a Fortune 500 technology company during a time when I was the PHB that had to pay for the 24x7 coverage on a particular server.</p><p>For your 40 hrs/week, you get your regular pay.  For your time "on the pager", you get 25\% of your regular hourly, until such time as it goes off.  From the time the pager goes off, until you clear the trouble ticket, you get 100\% plus any applicable shift/holiday/overtime premium.</p><p>If you can dial in remotely and fix the problem, great for everyone.  If not, you must be able to get from wherever you are to the server room in 30 minutes.  100\% of the time you are on the pager, you must be in condition to work, ie: sober.</p><p>So... does that sound like getting paid 25\% for doing nothing?  Not to me.  You can't get more than a 30 minute drive from the plant -- so no ski trips for you that weekend.  Going to a party?  Better have cranberry juice.  You are getting paid for making yourself available.</p><p>My company had a policy that the cost of 24x7 coverage came out of the budget of the PHB demanding it.  A very good policy, IMHO.  Its too easy to ask for it otherwise, without considering the consequences, both in terms of dollar cost, and in terms of quality of life for the employees that provide the coverage.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This question seems to be a FAQ and SlashDot .
Here is an approximation of what I posted last time .
It is/was the actual policy at a Fortune 500 technology company during a time when I was the PHB that had to pay for the 24x7 coverage on a particular server.For your 40 hrs/week , you get your regular pay .
For your time " on the pager " , you get 25 \ % of your regular hourly , until such time as it goes off .
From the time the pager goes off , until you clear the trouble ticket , you get 100 \ % plus any applicable shift/holiday/overtime premium.If you can dial in remotely and fix the problem , great for everyone .
If not , you must be able to get from wherever you are to the server room in 30 minutes .
100 \ % of the time you are on the pager , you must be in condition to work , ie : sober.So... does that sound like getting paid 25 \ % for doing nothing ?
Not to me .
You ca n't get more than a 30 minute drive from the plant -- so no ski trips for you that weekend .
Going to a party ?
Better have cranberry juice .
You are getting paid for making yourself available.My company had a policy that the cost of 24x7 coverage came out of the budget of the PHB demanding it .
A very good policy , IMHO .
Its too easy to ask for it otherwise , without considering the consequences , both in terms of dollar cost , and in terms of quality of life for the employees that provide the coverage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This question seems to be a FAQ and SlashDot.
Here is an approximation of what I posted last time.
It is/was the actual policy at a Fortune 500 technology company during a time when I was the PHB that had to pay for the 24x7 coverage on a particular server.For your 40 hrs/week, you get your regular pay.
For your time "on the pager", you get 25\% of your regular hourly, until such time as it goes off.
From the time the pager goes off, until you clear the trouble ticket, you get 100\% plus any applicable shift/holiday/overtime premium.If you can dial in remotely and fix the problem, great for everyone.
If not, you must be able to get from wherever you are to the server room in 30 minutes.
100\% of the time you are on the pager, you must be in condition to work, ie: sober.So... does that sound like getting paid 25\% for doing nothing?
Not to me.
You can't get more than a 30 minute drive from the plant -- so no ski trips for you that weekend.
Going to a party?
Better have cranberry juice.
You are getting paid for making yourself available.My company had a policy that the cost of 24x7 coverage came out of the budget of the PHB demanding it.
A very good policy, IMHO.
Its too easy to ask for it otherwise, without considering the consequences, both in terms of dollar cost, and in terms of quality of life for the employees that provide the coverage.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278112</id>
	<title>Re:Cut and Dry here</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1259591220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thats all well and good but he's not an employee, he's a contractor.  He is effectively his own company.  FLSA doesn't apply to him at all.</p><p>But, lets pretend he is an employee for the sake of argument.</p><p>If he was considered an employee, 'salaried' employees are exempt, most of the FLSA applies to non-exempt employees.  He can be considered working 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, still doesn't mean he gets paid extra.</p><p>Its cute that you started talking about it like you know what you're talking about but its pretty clear that you've never read the FLSA, or at the very least are incapable of basic reading comprehension.  At least read the damn statutes you're throwing out there before you spew on about them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thats all well and good but he 's not an employee , he 's a contractor .
He is effectively his own company .
FLSA does n't apply to him at all.But , lets pretend he is an employee for the sake of argument.If he was considered an employee , 'salaried ' employees are exempt , most of the FLSA applies to non-exempt employees .
He can be considered working 24 hours a day , 7 days a week , still does n't mean he gets paid extra.Its cute that you started talking about it like you know what you 're talking about but its pretty clear that you 've never read the FLSA , or at the very least are incapable of basic reading comprehension .
At least read the damn statutes you 're throwing out there before you spew on about them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thats all well and good but he's not an employee, he's a contractor.
He is effectively his own company.
FLSA doesn't apply to him at all.But, lets pretend he is an employee for the sake of argument.If he was considered an employee, 'salaried' employees are exempt, most of the FLSA applies to non-exempt employees.
He can be considered working 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, still doesn't mean he gets paid extra.Its cute that you started talking about it like you know what you're talking about but its pretty clear that you've never read the FLSA, or at the very least are incapable of basic reading comprehension.
At least read the damn statutes you're throwing out there before you spew on about them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274900</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273264</id>
	<title>Of course</title>
	<author>TheDarkMaster</author>
	<datestamp>1259613720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>We have many jobs on then the guy spends many time on "standby", but is crucial on problems without date or time to occur. Police, firemen, the army, civil defense (I work for then), etc etc.. And keep the good work job and stay sharp, guys.</htmltext>
<tokenext>We have many jobs on then the guy spends many time on " standby " , but is crucial on problems without date or time to occur .
Police , firemen , the army , civil defense ( I work for then ) , etc etc.. And keep the good work job and stay sharp , guys .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We have many jobs on then the guy spends many time on "standby", but is crucial on problems without date or time to occur.
Police, firemen, the army, civil defense (I work for then), etc etc.. And keep the good work job and stay sharp, guys.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274458</id>
	<title>At-Will On-Call</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259574600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm the "lone" IT guy where I work.  Web admin, network engineer, helpdesk.  I'm "On-Call" but with the stipulation of "you get me if you get me.  If you don't, call our service vendors"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... if I answer a call, I get an automatic hour's pay, and then whatever else is needed after that, plus travel.</p><p>So far it hasn't worked out at all.</p><p>"You get me if you get me" has been to the company owner "Get him.  Get him now.  Where is he?  This is unacceptable!" and nothing like what we agreed to.  I've had to correct them once already when they tried to write me up for neglect and I produced the documented they agreement to defend myself.</p><p>As the only person, I can't be reasonably expected to always be on-duty and my manager (nor do I) want me to make updates to her as to when I'll be available.  The policy seemed fair until they get bent out of shape.</p><p>The moral of the story is - get whatever you can for being on call, and make sure they know the rules apply only when you're on call.  Expect your employer to try and abuse it and be firm with them when they do.  Set boundaries early and keep them in place.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm the " lone " IT guy where I work .
Web admin , network engineer , helpdesk .
I 'm " On-Call " but with the stipulation of " you get me if you get me .
If you do n't , call our service vendors " ... if I answer a call , I get an automatic hour 's pay , and then whatever else is needed after that , plus travel.So far it has n't worked out at all .
" You get me if you get me " has been to the company owner " Get him .
Get him now .
Where is he ?
This is unacceptable !
" and nothing like what we agreed to .
I 've had to correct them once already when they tried to write me up for neglect and I produced the documented they agreement to defend myself.As the only person , I ca n't be reasonably expected to always be on-duty and my manager ( nor do I ) want me to make updates to her as to when I 'll be available .
The policy seemed fair until they get bent out of shape.The moral of the story is - get whatever you can for being on call , and make sure they know the rules apply only when you 're on call .
Expect your employer to try and abuse it and be firm with them when they do .
Set boundaries early and keep them in place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm the "lone" IT guy where I work.
Web admin, network engineer, helpdesk.
I'm "On-Call" but with the stipulation of "you get me if you get me.
If you don't, call our service vendors" ... if I answer a call, I get an automatic hour's pay, and then whatever else is needed after that, plus travel.So far it hasn't worked out at all.
"You get me if you get me" has been to the company owner "Get him.
Get him now.
Where is he?
This is unacceptable!
" and nothing like what we agreed to.
I've had to correct them once already when they tried to write me up for neglect and I produced the documented they agreement to defend myself.As the only person, I can't be reasonably expected to always be on-duty and my manager (nor do I) want me to make updates to her as to when I'll be available.
The policy seemed fair until they get bent out of shape.The moral of the story is - get whatever you can for being on call, and make sure they know the rules apply only when you're on call.
Expect your employer to try and abuse it and be firm with them when they do.
Set boundaries early and keep them in place.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273400</id>
	<title>Cost of always being on call</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259614200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would say there is a mental tax that is paid with the notion of always being on-call.  That tax must come at some cost in salary to the worker.  Maybe a 40hr/week salary plus 10\% for always being on-call.</p><p>The ability to drop what you are doing to help someone that occurs outside of a small regular interval is something that is not easy to do mentally and its logical that such a requirement would afford extra cost in salary.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would say there is a mental tax that is paid with the notion of always being on-call .
That tax must come at some cost in salary to the worker .
Maybe a 40hr/week salary plus 10 \ % for always being on-call.The ability to drop what you are doing to help someone that occurs outside of a small regular interval is something that is not easy to do mentally and its logical that such a requirement would afford extra cost in salary .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would say there is a mental tax that is paid with the notion of always being on-call.
That tax must come at some cost in salary to the worker.
Maybe a 40hr/week salary plus 10\% for always being on-call.The ability to drop what you are doing to help someone that occurs outside of a small regular interval is something that is not easy to do mentally and its logical that such a requirement would afford extra cost in salary.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274484</id>
	<title>Impairment Compensation</title>
	<author>xdroop</author>
	<datestamp>1259574720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My policy always was, my pager compensation was proportional to the potential impairment of my own agenda.</p><p>What I mean is, if you expect me to reply to you within a certain time frame, then I have to be near a phone or within cell coverage.  This restricts where I can go.  If you expect me to connect in remotely, I have to be near internet connectivity, and most of the time be carrying my laptop with me.  This further restricts where I can go, and what I can do when I go there.  If you want me to be on site within a certain time frame, that even further restricts where I can go.</p><p>If I can watch TV, go to the movies, or out for dinner and still be on call, that's not going to cost you as much as if I have to be within 30 minutes of being on-site from the moment you call me.</p><p>Historically, I have been lucky.  One employer paid us $500/week to carry the pager with a 90-minute call-back SLA (and then hilariously lost the pager number and refused to admit it, so was unable to call us for 8 months).  One customer was quoted something stupid like $5K/week for 7x24, 60-minute on-site (plus hourly when we got there).  Any call time was billed back to the client, and we (theoretically) got time-for-time in exchange for that.  My current employer has a pager our customers to call, but since it is 7x24 it is optional to be in the rotation and for various reasons I've opted out.  In addition to receiving money for your week on the pager here, time is tracked very strictly and we get time-for-time for any pager-call time served.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My policy always was , my pager compensation was proportional to the potential impairment of my own agenda.What I mean is , if you expect me to reply to you within a certain time frame , then I have to be near a phone or within cell coverage .
This restricts where I can go .
If you expect me to connect in remotely , I have to be near internet connectivity , and most of the time be carrying my laptop with me .
This further restricts where I can go , and what I can do when I go there .
If you want me to be on site within a certain time frame , that even further restricts where I can go.If I can watch TV , go to the movies , or out for dinner and still be on call , that 's not going to cost you as much as if I have to be within 30 minutes of being on-site from the moment you call me.Historically , I have been lucky .
One employer paid us $ 500/week to carry the pager with a 90-minute call-back SLA ( and then hilariously lost the pager number and refused to admit it , so was unable to call us for 8 months ) .
One customer was quoted something stupid like $ 5K/week for 7x24 , 60-minute on-site ( plus hourly when we got there ) .
Any call time was billed back to the client , and we ( theoretically ) got time-for-time in exchange for that .
My current employer has a pager our customers to call , but since it is 7x24 it is optional to be in the rotation and for various reasons I 've opted out .
In addition to receiving money for your week on the pager here , time is tracked very strictly and we get time-for-time for any pager-call time served .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My policy always was, my pager compensation was proportional to the potential impairment of my own agenda.What I mean is, if you expect me to reply to you within a certain time frame, then I have to be near a phone or within cell coverage.
This restricts where I can go.
If you expect me to connect in remotely, I have to be near internet connectivity, and most of the time be carrying my laptop with me.
This further restricts where I can go, and what I can do when I go there.
If you want me to be on site within a certain time frame, that even further restricts where I can go.If I can watch TV, go to the movies, or out for dinner and still be on call, that's not going to cost you as much as if I have to be within 30 minutes of being on-site from the moment you call me.Historically, I have been lucky.
One employer paid us $500/week to carry the pager with a 90-minute call-back SLA (and then hilariously lost the pager number and refused to admit it, so was unable to call us for 8 months).
One customer was quoted something stupid like $5K/week for 7x24, 60-minute on-site (plus hourly when we got there).
Any call time was billed back to the client, and we (theoretically) got time-for-time in exchange for that.
My current employer has a pager our customers to call, but since it is 7x24 it is optional to be in the rotation and for various reasons I've opted out.
In addition to receiving money for your week on the pager here, time is tracked very strictly and we get time-for-time for any pager-call time served.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274790</id>
	<title>Re:He's not really "on call"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259575920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If he got paid for being "on call" as a independent contractor then we'd all have to pay plumbers, lawn mowing guy, electrician, mechanics, and all the other "use you when I need you" people in our lives for being "on call".</p></div><p>You're obviously talking about requiring these services for a residential house which is a flawed comparison because we are talking business here. A house has relatively little infrastructure and most of it non-critical but if you're running a manufacturing plant with infrastructure that is critical to your business operations you may well pay a plumber, electrician or mechanic to be on call.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If he got paid for being " on call " as a independent contractor then we 'd all have to pay plumbers , lawn mowing guy , electrician , mechanics , and all the other " use you when I need you " people in our lives for being " on call " .You 're obviously talking about requiring these services for a residential house which is a flawed comparison because we are talking business here .
A house has relatively little infrastructure and most of it non-critical but if you 're running a manufacturing plant with infrastructure that is critical to your business operations you may well pay a plumber , electrician or mechanic to be on call .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If he got paid for being "on call" as a independent contractor then we'd all have to pay plumbers, lawn mowing guy, electrician, mechanics, and all the other "use you when I need you" people in our lives for being "on call".You're obviously talking about requiring these services for a residential house which is a flawed comparison because we are talking business here.
A house has relatively little infrastructure and most of it non-critical but if you're running a manufacturing plant with infrastructure that is critical to your business operations you may well pay a plumber, electrician or mechanic to be on call.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30283304</id>
	<title>Firefighters</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259683320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Work a 7 day 24 hour a day shift each month.  They are paid an hourly wage for eating, sleeping, pooping during that period.  The rest of the time, they are off the clock.  If they need more firefighters, they call them up and ask if they want to come work some overtime.</p><p>I am a union represented IT worker (DBA) for the same city government.  If they need me after hours, they call.  If I want the overtime, I take it.  If I don't, I don't.  If I'm not around, no big deal.  If they wanted me to be on standby with a guaranteed response, they would have to pay me.</p><p>I loves me some union.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Work a 7 day 24 hour a day shift each month .
They are paid an hourly wage for eating , sleeping , pooping during that period .
The rest of the time , they are off the clock .
If they need more firefighters , they call them up and ask if they want to come work some overtime.I am a union represented IT worker ( DBA ) for the same city government .
If they need me after hours , they call .
If I want the overtime , I take it .
If I do n't , I do n't .
If I 'm not around , no big deal .
If they wanted me to be on standby with a guaranteed response , they would have to pay me.I loves me some union .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Work a 7 day 24 hour a day shift each month.
They are paid an hourly wage for eating, sleeping, pooping during that period.
The rest of the time, they are off the clock.
If they need more firefighters, they call them up and ask if they want to come work some overtime.I am a union represented IT worker (DBA) for the same city government.
If they need me after hours, they call.
If I want the overtime, I take it.
If I don't, I don't.
If I'm not around, no big deal.
If they wanted me to be on standby with a guaranteed response, they would have to pay me.I loves me some union.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273298</id>
	<title>A contractor?</title>
	<author>Greg\_D</author>
	<datestamp>1259613840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You want the opportunity to use my services at your convenience?  Pay me a retainer equal to X hours a month.  I work any more than X, you pay me an hourly rate.  I work less than X, you still owe me for those hours.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You want the opportunity to use my services at your convenience ?
Pay me a retainer equal to X hours a month .
I work any more than X , you pay me an hourly rate .
I work less than X , you still owe me for those hours .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You want the opportunity to use my services at your convenience?
Pay me a retainer equal to X hours a month.
I work any more than X, you pay me an hourly rate.
I work less than X, you still owe me for those hours.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</id>
	<title>Paid call</title>
	<author>dr\_strang</author>
	<datestamp>1259613960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My wife is an OR (operating room) nurse who is paid to be on call, which I would consider to be roughly analogous to this topic.  However, there are a couple of major differences:</p><p>1. She has to go to a specific location (the hospital) when called in.  It's not like she can do her job from home.<br>2. She's paid hourly.<br>3. Usually if she gets called in, someone is dying.  I would rarely, if ever, classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My wife is an OR ( operating room ) nurse who is paid to be on call , which I would consider to be roughly analogous to this topic .
However , there are a couple of major differences : 1 .
She has to go to a specific location ( the hospital ) when called in .
It 's not like she can do her job from home.2 .
She 's paid hourly.3 .
Usually if she gets called in , someone is dying .
I would rarely , if ever , classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My wife is an OR (operating room) nurse who is paid to be on call, which I would consider to be roughly analogous to this topic.
However, there are a couple of major differences:1.
She has to go to a specific location (the hospital) when called in.
It's not like she can do her job from home.2.
She's paid hourly.3.
Usually if she gets called in, someone is dying.
I would rarely, if ever, classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274186</id>
	<title>Re:Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259573580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I get paid $2 per hour for wearing the beeper, I also pay $2 per hour for beeper rental. Makes perfect sense.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I get paid $ 2 per hour for wearing the beeper , I also pay $ 2 per hour for beeper rental .
Makes perfect sense .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I get paid $2 per hour for wearing the beeper, I also pay $2 per hour for beeper rental.
Makes perfect sense.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275232</id>
	<title>I can ignore you 24x7</title>
	<author>FatherDale</author>
	<datestamp>1259577900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I want to be paid extra for having to carry a crackberry. Evil geniuses turned a portable, always-on office/leash into a status symbol that actually makes people want them. I am in awe of this bit of corporate cat-belling.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I want to be paid extra for having to carry a crackberry .
Evil geniuses turned a portable , always-on office/leash into a status symbol that actually makes people want them .
I am in awe of this bit of corporate cat-belling .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I want to be paid extra for having to carry a crackberry.
Evil geniuses turned a portable, always-on office/leash into a status symbol that actually makes people want them.
I am in awe of this bit of corporate cat-belling.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273366</id>
	<title>And what does the law say?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259614080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, the government doesn't describe it as eligible for overtime, at least for police and dental assistant examples.  I think it boils down to you get everything you can negotiate for.</p><p>http://www.opm.gov/flsa/table.asp</p><p>F-0083-06-01, 12/11/97,<br>Police<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; * Call-back time<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * Electronic devices<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * On-call duty<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * Pager<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * &gt; Standby time</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Time in on-call status is not hours of work under FLSA</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , the government does n't describe it as eligible for overtime , at least for police and dental assistant examples .
I think it boils down to you get everything you can negotiate for.http : //www.opm.gov/flsa/table.aspF-0083-06-01 , 12/11/97,Police     * Call-back time         * Electronic devices         * On-call duty         * Pager         * &gt; Standby time         Time in on-call status is not hours of work under FLSA</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, the government doesn't describe it as eligible for overtime, at least for police and dental assistant examples.
I think it boils down to you get everything you can negotiate for.http://www.opm.gov/flsa/table.aspF-0083-06-01, 12/11/97,Police
    * Call-back time
        * Electronic devices
        * On-call duty
        * Pager
        * &gt; Standby time
        Time in on-call status is not hours of work under FLSA</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274510</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259574780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Like your wife, I too, work in a hospital but in IT. We in IT, take turns being on call.  However, we are paid for being on call.  It's a nominal sum but we are also guaranteed one hour of pay if we have to come in even if it's for only 5 minutes of work.  Of course, a lot of the time, we can handle the call from home.<br>Frankly, I don't know how I'd react if they decided to not pay us. Given someone at my age (56) would have a difficult time in getting another IT position, I guess I'd pretty much have to accept it.  (Course I wouldn't feel too bad about spending sometime on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. during work hours in that case.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Like your wife , I too , work in a hospital but in IT .
We in IT , take turns being on call .
However , we are paid for being on call .
It 's a nominal sum but we are also guaranteed one hour of pay if we have to come in even if it 's for only 5 minutes of work .
Of course , a lot of the time , we can handle the call from home.Frankly , I do n't know how I 'd react if they decided to not pay us .
Given someone at my age ( 56 ) would have a difficult time in getting another IT position , I guess I 'd pretty much have to accept it .
( Course I would n't feel too bad about spending sometime on / .
during work hours in that case .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Like your wife, I too, work in a hospital but in IT.
We in IT, take turns being on call.
However, we are paid for being on call.
It's a nominal sum but we are also guaranteed one hour of pay if we have to come in even if it's for only 5 minutes of work.
Of course, a lot of the time, we can handle the call from home.Frankly, I don't know how I'd react if they decided to not pay us.
Given someone at my age (56) would have a difficult time in getting another IT position, I guess I'd pretty much have to accept it.
(Course I wouldn't feel too bad about spending sometime on /.
during work hours in that case.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273750</id>
	<title>Re:There seems to be some confusion here...</title>
	<author>nine-times</author>
	<datestamp>1259572020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>However, it doesn't really much matter exactly how that extra money is delivered. It could be that "The job description of 'Job A' includes being on call, which is why people who do it earn a hefty salary" or it could be "'Job B' is 9 to 5; and time on call is X dollars/hour outside of that". That seems to be the point of confusion.</p></div><p>Exactly.  The first question here should be, are we talking about a salaried position or an hourly wage?  If it's a salaried position, then the salary should just be higher for taking on a job with the increased responsibility of being on call.  "Being on call" should be part of the job description, and part of the negotiation for salary at hiring.  If it wasn't and they ask you to be on call, then I think it's generally reasonable to say, "That wasn't part of my job description.  If you want me to be on call, then I want a pay bump to go along with it."
</p><p>If it's an hourly wage, then again it needs to be negotiated.  If it were me, I'd probably want a certain rate for working the normal 40 hour week, a different rate for being on call, and a third (relatively high) rate for work done outside of normal hours, while on call.  If you want me to make an effort to ensure that I can be reached 24/7, I expect some kind of compensation.  If you expect me to actually come in at 2am and work, then I expect to get paid more for that time than I get paid during the normal weekday.
</p><p>Of course, negotiating terms of employment can always be tricky.  If you really like your job and don't mind being on call for the amount you're paid, then you might not want to push it.  If you play hardball, it's possible they'll just let you go.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>However , it does n't really much matter exactly how that extra money is delivered .
It could be that " The job description of 'Job A ' includes being on call , which is why people who do it earn a hefty salary " or it could be " 'Job B ' is 9 to 5 ; and time on call is X dollars/hour outside of that " .
That seems to be the point of confusion.Exactly .
The first question here should be , are we talking about a salaried position or an hourly wage ?
If it 's a salaried position , then the salary should just be higher for taking on a job with the increased responsibility of being on call .
" Being on call " should be part of the job description , and part of the negotiation for salary at hiring .
If it was n't and they ask you to be on call , then I think it 's generally reasonable to say , " That was n't part of my job description .
If you want me to be on call , then I want a pay bump to go along with it .
" If it 's an hourly wage , then again it needs to be negotiated .
If it were me , I 'd probably want a certain rate for working the normal 40 hour week , a different rate for being on call , and a third ( relatively high ) rate for work done outside of normal hours , while on call .
If you want me to make an effort to ensure that I can be reached 24/7 , I expect some kind of compensation .
If you expect me to actually come in at 2am and work , then I expect to get paid more for that time than I get paid during the normal weekday .
Of course , negotiating terms of employment can always be tricky .
If you really like your job and do n't mind being on call for the amount you 're paid , then you might not want to push it .
If you play hardball , it 's possible they 'll just let you go .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>However, it doesn't really much matter exactly how that extra money is delivered.
It could be that "The job description of 'Job A' includes being on call, which is why people who do it earn a hefty salary" or it could be "'Job B' is 9 to 5; and time on call is X dollars/hour outside of that".
That seems to be the point of confusion.Exactly.
The first question here should be, are we talking about a salaried position or an hourly wage?
If it's a salaried position, then the salary should just be higher for taking on a job with the increased responsibility of being on call.
"Being on call" should be part of the job description, and part of the negotiation for salary at hiring.
If it wasn't and they ask you to be on call, then I think it's generally reasonable to say, "That wasn't part of my job description.
If you want me to be on call, then I want a pay bump to go along with it.
"
If it's an hourly wage, then again it needs to be negotiated.
If it were me, I'd probably want a certain rate for working the normal 40 hour week, a different rate for being on call, and a third (relatively high) rate for work done outside of normal hours, while on call.
If you want me to make an effort to ensure that I can be reached 24/7, I expect some kind of compensation.
If you expect me to actually come in at 2am and work, then I expect to get paid more for that time than I get paid during the normal weekday.
Of course, negotiating terms of employment can always be tricky.
If you really like your job and don't mind being on call for the amount you're paid, then you might not want to push it.
If you play hardball, it's possible they'll just let you go.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273262</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275454</id>
	<title>Why is This Even a Discussion?</title>
	<author>RobDude</author>
	<datestamp>1259578680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is a complete no-brainer to me...</p><p>Yes.  Of course, you should get paid for being 'on-call'.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is a complete no-brainer to me...Yes .
Of course , you should get paid for being 'on-call' .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is a complete no-brainer to me...Yes.
Of course, you should get paid for being 'on-call'.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273820</id>
	<title>This was a big issue at my last job</title>
	<author>presidenteloco</author>
	<datestamp>1259572260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My boss in a ridiculously small s-a-a-s co. would frequently call up at all hours and<br>on weekends with an emergency problem with the servers, the webapp, or the office IT. Nominally<br>I was "lead developer". He wanted me to get the alerts hooked up directly to my<br>cellphone.</p><p>Now if somehow he had seen fit to include his tech employees as (even small) partners<br>in the venture, my attitude just may have been different,</p><p>but as it was, I basically let him know at one point that this was extra value to the company beyond<br>our agreement, and that some form of compensation or compensating time off would be a fair gesture.</p><p>This kind of disagreement ultimately led to our parting of ways.</p><p>Labour standards for tech workers where I live are way slanted toward the employer. Tech workers<br>are not included in the normal "40-hour or overtime or flex-time" rules that govern the rest of the<br>economy, even if we are not given shares or options.</p><p>So it is basically up to the employees to stick up for their rights, and it leads to a lot of bad blood<br>if an employee doesn't agree to be a slave. I guess the companies end up with "willing lackey"<br>types exclusively.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My boss in a ridiculously small s-a-a-s co. would frequently call up at all hours andon weekends with an emergency problem with the servers , the webapp , or the office IT .
NominallyI was " lead developer " .
He wanted me to get the alerts hooked up directly to mycellphone.Now if somehow he had seen fit to include his tech employees as ( even small ) partnersin the venture , my attitude just may have been different,but as it was , I basically let him know at one point that this was extra value to the company beyondour agreement , and that some form of compensation or compensating time off would be a fair gesture.This kind of disagreement ultimately led to our parting of ways.Labour standards for tech workers where I live are way slanted toward the employer .
Tech workersare not included in the normal " 40-hour or overtime or flex-time " rules that govern the rest of theeconomy , even if we are not given shares or options.So it is basically up to the employees to stick up for their rights , and it leads to a lot of bad bloodif an employee does n't agree to be a slave .
I guess the companies end up with " willing lackey " types exclusively .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My boss in a ridiculously small s-a-a-s co. would frequently call up at all hours andon weekends with an emergency problem with the servers, the webapp, or the office IT.
NominallyI was "lead developer".
He wanted me to get the alerts hooked up directly to mycellphone.Now if somehow he had seen fit to include his tech employees as (even small) partnersin the venture, my attitude just may have been different,but as it was, I basically let him know at one point that this was extra value to the company beyondour agreement, and that some form of compensation or compensating time off would be a fair gesture.This kind of disagreement ultimately led to our parting of ways.Labour standards for tech workers where I live are way slanted toward the employer.
Tech workersare not included in the normal "40-hour or overtime or flex-time" rules that govern the rest of theeconomy, even if we are not given shares or options.So it is basically up to the employees to stick up for their rights, and it leads to a lot of bad bloodif an employee doesn't agree to be a slave.
I guess the companies end up with "willing lackey"types exclusively.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274622</id>
	<title>Hmm...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259575200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I try this approach, and it has served me well... I am just good at my job.</p><p>I am just generally good at what I do, and try to do as thorough of a job as possible.</p><p>Occasionally, there is something that is beyond my sphere of influence, or something that just happens as a natural course.  I handle it.</p><p>I make sure that my pay is at a level acceptable to my responsibilities...</p><p>Instead of resorting to unions, I always make sure I am an asset to my company.  I don't have to press very hard at review time to get a worthy compensation adjustment.  While I sometimes get a minimal raise of 4\% (like this year with the economic environment), I pull off a 15-20\% raise about every other year or three.  I have more than tripled my income in my 11 years of professional experience.</p><p>How can others value you if you do not value yourself?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I try this approach , and it has served me well... I am just good at my job.I am just generally good at what I do , and try to do as thorough of a job as possible.Occasionally , there is something that is beyond my sphere of influence , or something that just happens as a natural course .
I handle it.I make sure that my pay is at a level acceptable to my responsibilities...Instead of resorting to unions , I always make sure I am an asset to my company .
I do n't have to press very hard at review time to get a worthy compensation adjustment .
While I sometimes get a minimal raise of 4 \ % ( like this year with the economic environment ) , I pull off a 15-20 \ % raise about every other year or three .
I have more than tripled my income in my 11 years of professional experience.How can others value you if you do not value yourself ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I try this approach, and it has served me well... I am just good at my job.I am just generally good at what I do, and try to do as thorough of a job as possible.Occasionally, there is something that is beyond my sphere of influence, or something that just happens as a natural course.
I handle it.I make sure that my pay is at a level acceptable to my responsibilities...Instead of resorting to unions, I always make sure I am an asset to my company.
I don't have to press very hard at review time to get a worthy compensation adjustment.
While I sometimes get a minimal raise of 4\% (like this year with the economic environment), I pull off a 15-20\% raise about every other year or three.
I have more than tripled my income in my 11 years of professional experience.How can others value you if you do not value yourself?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276100</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259580840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>My wife is an OR (operating room) nurse who is paid to be on call, which I would consider to be roughly analogous to this topic.  However, there are a couple of major differences:</p><p>1. She has to go to a specific location (the hospital) when called in.  It's not like she can do her job from home.<br>2. She's paid hourly.<br>3. Usually if she gets called in, someone is dying.  I would rarely, if ever, classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that.</p></div><p> How about wants and warrants when there is an escaped murderer on the loose...</p><p>or  the FAA radar systems go down..</p><p>or the teleconference connecting and experienced Dr in one city performing an operation while at the same time monitoring a more junior Dr doing the same operation  some where else...</p><p>or the E-911 system not reporting any locations</p><p>the no monetary list if fairly extensive, the real problem is when some idiot manager is  threating everyone's job because he gets measured on ratio of sales revenue to cost  and so doesn't spend enough on redundancy and personal to not kill everyone when the site tanks for X hours a costs him his whole bonus and then some.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>My wife is an OR ( operating room ) nurse who is paid to be on call , which I would consider to be roughly analogous to this topic .
However , there are a couple of major differences : 1 .
She has to go to a specific location ( the hospital ) when called in .
It 's not like she can do her job from home.2 .
She 's paid hourly.3 .
Usually if she gets called in , someone is dying .
I would rarely , if ever , classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that .
How about wants and warrants when there is an escaped murderer on the loose...or the FAA radar systems go down..or the teleconference connecting and experienced Dr in one city performing an operation while at the same time monitoring a more junior Dr doing the same operation some where else...or the E-911 system not reporting any locationsthe no monetary list if fairly extensive , the real problem is when some idiot manager is threating everyone 's job because he gets measured on ratio of sales revenue to cost and so does n't spend enough on redundancy and personal to not kill everyone when the site tanks for X hours a costs him his whole bonus and then some .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My wife is an OR (operating room) nurse who is paid to be on call, which I would consider to be roughly analogous to this topic.
However, there are a couple of major differences:1.
She has to go to a specific location (the hospital) when called in.
It's not like she can do her job from home.2.
She's paid hourly.3.
Usually if she gets called in, someone is dying.
I would rarely, if ever, classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that.
How about wants and warrants when there is an escaped murderer on the loose...or  the FAA radar systems go down..or the teleconference connecting and experienced Dr in one city performing an operation while at the same time monitoring a more junior Dr doing the same operation  some where else...or the E-911 system not reporting any locationsthe no monetary list if fairly extensive, the real problem is when some idiot manager is  threating everyone's job because he gets measured on ratio of sales revenue to cost  and so doesn't spend enough on redundancy and personal to not kill everyone when the site tanks for X hours a costs him his whole bonus and then some.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30281312</id>
	<title>Should you be paid for being on call?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259667960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Of course you should be paid for being on call. How much depends on what level of on call your employer wants, because shorter response times mean your freedom outside of working hours is curtailed.</p><p>If I were to be on call it would be nothing less than 10\% of my hourly rate and then at least 200\% in 30-minute blocks for a minimum of 1 hour including time spent travelling to and from if I am called in. If they complain it's too expensive then they should fix their shit so they don't need me on call or hire people to do my job when I'm not.</p><p>Contrary to popular belief, your employer doesn't own you, but then I don't live in the USA which seems really fucked up when it comes to, among other things, employment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course you should be paid for being on call .
How much depends on what level of on call your employer wants , because shorter response times mean your freedom outside of working hours is curtailed.If I were to be on call it would be nothing less than 10 \ % of my hourly rate and then at least 200 \ % in 30-minute blocks for a minimum of 1 hour including time spent travelling to and from if I am called in .
If they complain it 's too expensive then they should fix their shit so they do n't need me on call or hire people to do my job when I 'm not.Contrary to popular belief , your employer does n't own you , but then I do n't live in the USA which seems really fucked up when it comes to , among other things , employment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course you should be paid for being on call.
How much depends on what level of on call your employer wants, because shorter response times mean your freedom outside of working hours is curtailed.If I were to be on call it would be nothing less than 10\% of my hourly rate and then at least 200\% in 30-minute blocks for a minimum of 1 hour including time spent travelling to and from if I am called in.
If they complain it's too expensive then they should fix their shit so they don't need me on call or hire people to do my job when I'm not.Contrary to popular belief, your employer doesn't own you, but then I don't live in the USA which seems really fucked up when it comes to, among other things, employment.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274966</id>
	<title>A different perspective ?</title>
	<author>Quixotic Raindrop</author>
	<datestamp>1259576760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Many companies see the on-call issue as analogous to a fire fighter's job. Most of the time, a fire fighter is off-duty but on call, hanging around the firehouse, cooking, sleeping, or whatever. What that person really gets paid for is the relatively small, but crucial, amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax."

Maybe where that lawyer lives, firefighters spend most of their time in the firehouse cooking, sleeping, or whatever, and not getting paid for it. Most of the engine companies I work with spend 3-4 hours per 24 h shift drilling, and run EMS calls in addition to fire, pest (snake/spider/wild animal) relocation, and public assist calls, many of them averaging a total of 10-12 calls per shift (all calls included). They also get paid for the full 24, not a sub-set of it. There is no reason to say that someone who has an on-call status is off the clock just because they are not actively working every second of their on-call time. If you expect someone to be at your beck-and-call 24 hours, you must compensate them for that. Now, if they are at home, with an "oh-shit" pager/cell phone, you can probably compensate them for far less than their normal wage. As an example, I have a friend who works full time as a paramedic with us, and part-time as a blood recovery tech for a local hospital. Certain days he is on 24 hour on-call status as a recovery tech, and gets paid like $1.50/hour on call. If he gets called in to the OR for a job, then he gets his full hourly wage from the time the page goes out until he leaves the hospital again, after which the pay goes back to the lower wage. He can't drink alcohol, he can't leave the city, he can't really plan any long events, and though he does do things like attend his son's various sport events, he could be torn away from them without warning. The compensation, even at a quite low wage, is recognition that although you are not working, you are also not really free to do anything you wish since your employer or client could recall you without warning. I believe that any employer who thinks that on-call is just like being off-duty should probably come out here to a fire station of my choosing. That thinking will change toot-sweet.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Many companies see the on-call issue as analogous to a fire fighter 's job .
Most of the time , a fire fighter is off-duty but on call , hanging around the firehouse , cooking , sleeping , or whatever .
What that person really gets paid for is the relatively small , but crucial , amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax .
" Maybe where that lawyer lives , firefighters spend most of their time in the firehouse cooking , sleeping , or whatever , and not getting paid for it .
Most of the engine companies I work with spend 3-4 hours per 24 h shift drilling , and run EMS calls in addition to fire , pest ( snake/spider/wild animal ) relocation , and public assist calls , many of them averaging a total of 10-12 calls per shift ( all calls included ) .
They also get paid for the full 24 , not a sub-set of it .
There is no reason to say that someone who has an on-call status is off the clock just because they are not actively working every second of their on-call time .
If you expect someone to be at your beck-and-call 24 hours , you must compensate them for that .
Now , if they are at home , with an " oh-shit " pager/cell phone , you can probably compensate them for far less than their normal wage .
As an example , I have a friend who works full time as a paramedic with us , and part-time as a blood recovery tech for a local hospital .
Certain days he is on 24 hour on-call status as a recovery tech , and gets paid like $ 1.50/hour on call .
If he gets called in to the OR for a job , then he gets his full hourly wage from the time the page goes out until he leaves the hospital again , after which the pay goes back to the lower wage .
He ca n't drink alcohol , he ca n't leave the city , he ca n't really plan any long events , and though he does do things like attend his son 's various sport events , he could be torn away from them without warning .
The compensation , even at a quite low wage , is recognition that although you are not working , you are also not really free to do anything you wish since your employer or client could recall you without warning .
I believe that any employer who thinks that on-call is just like being off-duty should probably come out here to a fire station of my choosing .
That thinking will change toot-sweet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Many companies see the on-call issue as analogous to a fire fighter's job.
Most of the time, a fire fighter is off-duty but on call, hanging around the firehouse, cooking, sleeping, or whatever.
What that person really gets paid for is the relatively small, but crucial, amount of time he spends walking into a burning building with an ax.
"

Maybe where that lawyer lives, firefighters spend most of their time in the firehouse cooking, sleeping, or whatever, and not getting paid for it.
Most of the engine companies I work with spend 3-4 hours per 24 h shift drilling, and run EMS calls in addition to fire, pest (snake/spider/wild animal) relocation, and public assist calls, many of them averaging a total of 10-12 calls per shift (all calls included).
They also get paid for the full 24, not a sub-set of it.
There is no reason to say that someone who has an on-call status is off the clock just because they are not actively working every second of their on-call time.
If you expect someone to be at your beck-and-call 24 hours, you must compensate them for that.
Now, if they are at home, with an "oh-shit" pager/cell phone, you can probably compensate them for far less than their normal wage.
As an example, I have a friend who works full time as a paramedic with us, and part-time as a blood recovery tech for a local hospital.
Certain days he is on 24 hour on-call status as a recovery tech, and gets paid like $1.50/hour on call.
If he gets called in to the OR for a job, then he gets his full hourly wage from the time the page goes out until he leaves the hospital again, after which the pay goes back to the lower wage.
He can't drink alcohol, he can't leave the city, he can't really plan any long events, and though he does do things like attend his son's various sport events, he could be torn away from them without warning.
The compensation, even at a quite low wage, is recognition that although you are not working, you are also not really free to do anything you wish since your employer or client could recall you without warning.
I believe that any employer who thinks that on-call is just like being off-duty should probably come out here to a fire station of my choosing.
That thinking will change toot-sweet.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273936</id>
	<title>Re:hospital model...</title>
	<author>grumpyman</author>
	<datestamp>1259572680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>FYI the previous place I worked at (IT product vendor) pays 10\% extra of the salary for the week that one is required to carry the pager.  If things happen, it's minimum 3 hours of OT work.  The requirement is obviously, must be in-town, cannot do things that may affect the potential call (e.g. alcohol).</htmltext>
<tokenext>FYI the previous place I worked at ( IT product vendor ) pays 10 \ % extra of the salary for the week that one is required to carry the pager .
If things happen , it 's minimum 3 hours of OT work .
The requirement is obviously , must be in-town , can not do things that may affect the potential call ( e.g .
alcohol ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>FYI the previous place I worked at (IT product vendor) pays 10\% extra of the salary for the week that one is required to carry the pager.
If things happen, it's minimum 3 hours of OT work.
The requirement is obviously, must be in-town, cannot do things that may affect the potential call (e.g.
alcohol).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273272</id>
	<title>Personally I believe it depends upon if you're...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259613780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...salaried or not.</p><p>If you are salaried, you accepted a position for fixed pay, fixed pay for all the responsibilities of that position (usually.)  If you're hourly, you should be paid for the time you're in action during your on call period.  If being 'on call' is seriously intrusive to your everyday life then you should discuss, before accepting the position, whether or not that results in some form of recompense (monetary or otherwise.)</p><p>Presuming he/she is salaried, you can't complain about it after accepting the position.  You can attempt to re-negotiate your employment contract or quit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...salaried or not.If you are salaried , you accepted a position for fixed pay , fixed pay for all the responsibilities of that position ( usually .
) If you 're hourly , you should be paid for the time you 're in action during your on call period .
If being 'on call ' is seriously intrusive to your everyday life then you should discuss , before accepting the position , whether or not that results in some form of recompense ( monetary or otherwise .
) Presuming he/she is salaried , you ca n't complain about it after accepting the position .
You can attempt to re-negotiate your employment contract or quit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...salaried or not.If you are salaried, you accepted a position for fixed pay, fixed pay for all the responsibilities of that position (usually.
)  If you're hourly, you should be paid for the time you're in action during your on call period.
If being 'on call' is seriously intrusive to your everyday life then you should discuss, before accepting the position, whether or not that results in some form of recompense (monetary or otherwise.
)Presuming he/she is salaried, you can't complain about it after accepting the position.
You can attempt to re-negotiate your employment contract or quit.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274608</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>azmodean+1</author>
	<datestamp>1259575140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>My wife is an OR (operating room) nurse who is paid to be on call, which I would consider to be roughly analogous to this topic.  However, there are a couple of major differences:</p><p>1. She has to go to a specific location (the hospital) when called in.  It's not like she can do her job from home.
</p><p>2. She's paid hourly.
</p><p>3. Usually if she gets called in, someone is dying.  I would rarely, if ever, classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that.</p></div><p>1. Irrelevant, so if you work from home 100\% you shouldn't be paid?  It's one aspect to take into consideration, but it doesn't erase the fact that a worker on call has to disrupt their life.
</p><p>2. If you're salaried, the compensation should appear in your normal wage instead of as a hourly bonus.  (For example as the retainer mentioned previously in the thread)  Salaried doesn't mean, "Do everything your employer says, even on your off time."
</p><p>2a. According to TFA, the person in question is also hourly.
</p><p>3. That is a decision to be made by the person paying the bills, if it's important enough to have someone on call, it's important enough to pay them for it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>My wife is an OR ( operating room ) nurse who is paid to be on call , which I would consider to be roughly analogous to this topic .
However , there are a couple of major differences : 1 .
She has to go to a specific location ( the hospital ) when called in .
It 's not like she can do her job from home .
2. She 's paid hourly .
3. Usually if she gets called in , someone is dying .
I would rarely , if ever , classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that.1 .
Irrelevant , so if you work from home 100 \ % you should n't be paid ?
It 's one aspect to take into consideration , but it does n't erase the fact that a worker on call has to disrupt their life .
2. If you 're salaried , the compensation should appear in your normal wage instead of as a hourly bonus .
( For example as the retainer mentioned previously in the thread ) Salaried does n't mean , " Do everything your employer says , even on your off time .
" 2a .
According to TFA , the person in question is also hourly .
3. That is a decision to be made by the person paying the bills , if it 's important enough to have someone on call , it 's important enough to pay them for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My wife is an OR (operating room) nurse who is paid to be on call, which I would consider to be roughly analogous to this topic.
However, there are a couple of major differences:1.
She has to go to a specific location (the hospital) when called in.
It's not like she can do her job from home.
2. She's paid hourly.
3. Usually if she gets called in, someone is dying.
I would rarely, if ever, classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that.1.
Irrelevant, so if you work from home 100\% you shouldn't be paid?
It's one aspect to take into consideration, but it doesn't erase the fact that a worker on call has to disrupt their life.
2. If you're salaried, the compensation should appear in your normal wage instead of as a hourly bonus.
(For example as the retainer mentioned previously in the thread)  Salaried doesn't mean, "Do everything your employer says, even on your off time.
"
2a.
According to TFA, the person in question is also hourly.
3. That is a decision to be made by the person paying the bills, if it's important enough to have someone on call, it's important enough to pay them for it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274214</id>
	<title>Clients rent me</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259573700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My clients/employer rent my time &amp; I figure it's pretty black &amp; white.  Either they pay me and I'm on the clock, or they don't pay me and I'm not.</p><p>That said, I'm in the relatively fortunate position that my work does pay me for being on-call, and none of my private clients expect to be able to reach me 24/7.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My clients/employer rent my time &amp; I figure it 's pretty black &amp; white .
Either they pay me and I 'm on the clock , or they do n't pay me and I 'm not.That said , I 'm in the relatively fortunate position that my work does pay me for being on-call , and none of my private clients expect to be able to reach me 24/7 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My clients/employer rent my time &amp; I figure it's pretty black &amp; white.
Either they pay me and I'm on the clock, or they don't pay me and I'm not.That said, I'm in the relatively fortunate position that my work does pay me for being on-call, and none of my private clients expect to be able to reach me 24/7.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275010</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259576940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are IT emergencies that can put peoples' lives in danger. Let's say you work at a blood bank and you can't get shipments out to hospitals because your server is borked and you can't identify the proper bags to go to the proper places. Every minute that system is down, patients are dying at the hopsital for lack of blood.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are IT emergencies that can put peoples ' lives in danger .
Let 's say you work at a blood bank and you ca n't get shipments out to hospitals because your server is borked and you ca n't identify the proper bags to go to the proper places .
Every minute that system is down , patients are dying at the hopsital for lack of blood .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are IT emergencies that can put peoples' lives in danger.
Let's say you work at a blood bank and you can't get shipments out to hospitals because your server is borked and you can't identify the proper bags to go to the proper places.
Every minute that system is down, patients are dying at the hopsital for lack of blood.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30279558</id>
	<title>exact rates</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259604540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>$400 to pick up the phone<br>$800 if the conversation takes longer than 1/2 an hour<br>$1000 if I have to do anything (do work)</p><p>That clause in my contract has only been exercised once in 7 years of contracting, and that was by mistake...as soon as the caller identified himself I said "you realise this call just cost $400, I hope you have your managers approval"...he hung up, and didn't call back.</p><p>Make it hurt enough and you'll never be on call again<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 400 to pick up the phone $ 800 if the conversation takes longer than 1/2 an hour $ 1000 if I have to do anything ( do work ) That clause in my contract has only been exercised once in 7 years of contracting , and that was by mistake...as soon as the caller identified himself I said " you realise this call just cost $ 400 , I hope you have your managers approval " ...he hung up , and did n't call back.Make it hurt enough and you 'll never be on call again : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$400 to pick up the phone$800 if the conversation takes longer than 1/2 an hour$1000 if I have to do anything (do work)That clause in my contract has only been exercised once in 7 years of contracting, and that was by mistake...as soon as the caller identified himself I said "you realise this call just cost $400, I hope you have your managers approval"...he hung up, and didn't call back.Make it hurt enough and you'll never be on call again :)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275078</id>
	<title>Where I work</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259577180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work at a nuclear research lab.  There are physicists here who are on call in case somebody in the reactor control room needs some physics calculations done (reactivity values during fuelling, for example).  The position of 'duty physicist' rotates every three months, and the duty physicist carries a company supplied cell phone with them during that time.  They also receive a small bonus (not sure how much it is) for being on call.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work at a nuclear research lab .
There are physicists here who are on call in case somebody in the reactor control room needs some physics calculations done ( reactivity values during fuelling , for example ) .
The position of 'duty physicist ' rotates every three months , and the duty physicist carries a company supplied cell phone with them during that time .
They also receive a small bonus ( not sure how much it is ) for being on call .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work at a nuclear research lab.
There are physicists here who are on call in case somebody in the reactor control room needs some physics calculations done (reactivity values during fuelling, for example).
The position of 'duty physicist' rotates every three months, and the duty physicist carries a company supplied cell phone with them during that time.
They also receive a small bonus (not sure how much it is) for being on call.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274002</id>
	<title>Yes it should pay</title>
	<author>Tim C</author>
	<datestamp>1259572920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you're on call and expected to be available to fix stuff (or even just to advise) then there are restrictions placed on what you can and cannot do. If there's an SLA involved, and you have to be actively working on the issue within X minutes, then there are even more restrictions placed on what you can do. (No getting drunk, no going too far from a computer &amp; a net connection, potentially no travelling, no going to the theatre (unless you're willing to risk wasting the price of the ticket), don't risk a date unless she's happy to maybe have to cut it short at a moment's notice, no being uncontactable (e.g. out of mobile coverage) etc)</p><p>Time with restrictions placed on it is by definition not free time. Time that is not free because of my employer, my employer can pay for.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 're on call and expected to be available to fix stuff ( or even just to advise ) then there are restrictions placed on what you can and can not do .
If there 's an SLA involved , and you have to be actively working on the issue within X minutes , then there are even more restrictions placed on what you can do .
( No getting drunk , no going too far from a computer &amp; a net connection , potentially no travelling , no going to the theatre ( unless you 're willing to risk wasting the price of the ticket ) , do n't risk a date unless she 's happy to maybe have to cut it short at a moment 's notice , no being uncontactable ( e.g .
out of mobile coverage ) etc ) Time with restrictions placed on it is by definition not free time .
Time that is not free because of my employer , my employer can pay for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you're on call and expected to be available to fix stuff (or even just to advise) then there are restrictions placed on what you can and cannot do.
If there's an SLA involved, and you have to be actively working on the issue within X minutes, then there are even more restrictions placed on what you can do.
(No getting drunk, no going too far from a computer &amp; a net connection, potentially no travelling, no going to the theatre (unless you're willing to risk wasting the price of the ticket), don't risk a date unless she's happy to maybe have to cut it short at a moment's notice, no being uncontactable (e.g.
out of mobile coverage) etc)Time with restrictions placed on it is by definition not free time.
Time that is not free because of my employer, my employer can pay for.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30363012</id>
	<title>Re:He's not really "on call"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1260266580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Apples and oranges.</p><p>You don't call a plumber and say "my toilet's clogged, fix it RIGHT NOW". Well, I take that back. You do, if you're paying him extra to be at-the-ready like that.</p><p>It's the same deal. There's a difference between the OP's boss calling him and saying "hey, buddy, it's 9pm, but here's something to get on tomorrow" and "it's 3am and shit needs to work. You've got until 3:05.". One of them should involve additional compensation</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Apples and oranges.You do n't call a plumber and say " my toilet 's clogged , fix it RIGHT NOW " .
Well , I take that back .
You do , if you 're paying him extra to be at-the-ready like that.It 's the same deal .
There 's a difference between the OP 's boss calling him and saying " hey , buddy , it 's 9pm , but here 's something to get on tomorrow " and " it 's 3am and shit needs to work .
You 've got until 3 : 05. " .
One of them should involve additional compensation</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Apples and oranges.You don't call a plumber and say "my toilet's clogged, fix it RIGHT NOW".
Well, I take that back.
You do, if you're paying him extra to be at-the-ready like that.It's the same deal.
There's a difference between the OP's boss calling him and saying "hey, buddy, it's 9pm, but here's something to get on tomorrow" and "it's 3am and shit needs to work.
You've got until 3:05.".
One of them should involve additional compensation</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30277326</id>
	<title>UK Public Sector</title>
	<author>Gonoff</author>
	<datestamp>1259586000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am in an on call rota.  For that I get an additional 9.5\% added to my salary.  During my weeks, I carry a bleep 24/7.  If I get called and can solve it over the phone in under 15 minutes all done.  If it takes longer or I cannot solve it remotely I go in and am paid time + 1/3, time and 1/2 for unsociable hours or double time for public holidays.</p><p>Working in the public sector is not as highly paid as private industry but I am one of those strange people who feels that job satisfaction is worth a little money.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am in an on call rota .
For that I get an additional 9.5 \ % added to my salary .
During my weeks , I carry a bleep 24/7 .
If I get called and can solve it over the phone in under 15 minutes all done .
If it takes longer or I can not solve it remotely I go in and am paid time + 1/3 , time and 1/2 for unsociable hours or double time for public holidays.Working in the public sector is not as highly paid as private industry but I am one of those strange people who feels that job satisfaction is worth a little money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am in an on call rota.
For that I get an additional 9.5\% added to my salary.
During my weeks, I carry a bleep 24/7.
If I get called and can solve it over the phone in under 15 minutes all done.
If it takes longer or I cannot solve it remotely I go in and am paid time + 1/3, time and 1/2 for unsociable hours or double time for public holidays.Working in the public sector is not as highly paid as private industry but I am one of those strange people who feels that job satisfaction is worth a little money.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273928</id>
	<title>On-call duty in Finland</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259572620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In Finland our collective labour contract (IT field jobs) says that all on-call duty time must be paid with half of salary.</p><p>So if employer says you must be reachable (and he can't just say that, it is negotiable issue) 24/7, you get paid 40h+(128h/2)=104h/week. I think that's pretty fair. On the other hand all overtime is paid with raised rate (depending on amount, starting from x1.5 normal salary per hour, one hour minimum), so working culture is pretty different from USA/Canada/....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In Finland our collective labour contract ( IT field jobs ) says that all on-call duty time must be paid with half of salary.So if employer says you must be reachable ( and he ca n't just say that , it is negotiable issue ) 24/7 , you get paid 40h + ( 128h/2 ) = 104h/week .
I think that 's pretty fair .
On the other hand all overtime is paid with raised rate ( depending on amount , starting from x1.5 normal salary per hour , one hour minimum ) , so working culture is pretty different from USA/Canada/... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In Finland our collective labour contract (IT field jobs) says that all on-call duty time must be paid with half of salary.So if employer says you must be reachable (and he can't just say that, it is negotiable issue) 24/7, you get paid 40h+(128h/2)=104h/week.
I think that's pretty fair.
On the other hand all overtime is paid with raised rate (depending on amount, starting from x1.5 normal salary per hour, one hour minimum), so working culture is pretty different from USA/Canada/....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273336</id>
	<title>If it is not worth anything, it is worthless, righ</title>
	<author>Alpha77</author>
	<datestamp>1259613960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My company pays 10\% of the usual hourly wage for everyone who is on call. When a call comes in, the rate jumps to the usual hourly rate. If this makes you work more hours than agreed upon in your contract, an overtime percentage is added.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My company pays 10 \ % of the usual hourly wage for everyone who is on call .
When a call comes in , the rate jumps to the usual hourly rate .
If this makes you work more hours than agreed upon in your contract , an overtime percentage is added .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My company pays 10\% of the usual hourly wage for everyone who is on call.
When a call comes in, the rate jumps to the usual hourly rate.
If this makes you work more hours than agreed upon in your contract, an overtime percentage is added.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273704</id>
	<title>The Beer Principle</title>
	<author>novasoy</author>
	<datestamp>1259571900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How about this, which I hearby call the Beer Principle (patent pending):</p><p>If being "on call" means I have to remain sober the whole time, you need to show me the money.<br>If being "on call" means I can get drunk in the privacy of my own home and not get in trouble if you call me whilst in my cups, then we're cool.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about this , which I hearby call the Beer Principle ( patent pending ) : If being " on call " means I have to remain sober the whole time , you need to show me the money.If being " on call " means I can get drunk in the privacy of my own home and not get in trouble if you call me whilst in my cups , then we 're cool .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about this, which I hearby call the Beer Principle (patent pending):If being "on call" means I have to remain sober the whole time, you need to show me the money.If being "on call" means I can get drunk in the privacy of my own home and not get in trouble if you call me whilst in my cups, then we're cool.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274304</id>
	<title>The answer is easy</title>
	<author>flibuste</author>
	<datestamp>1259574000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you're self-employed, think twice before charging all those hours but charge a fee anyway. If you're not, you make yourself available to the company during off-hours. That takes a huge toll on your life which must be rewarded/taken back somehow. Usually, between an individual and a company, this is done through money. The company must pay for your on-call time, period. For one thing, it'll prevent abuses or you get paid for being abused.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 're self-employed , think twice before charging all those hours but charge a fee anyway .
If you 're not , you make yourself available to the company during off-hours .
That takes a huge toll on your life which must be rewarded/taken back somehow .
Usually , between an individual and a company , this is done through money .
The company must pay for your on-call time , period .
For one thing , it 'll prevent abuses or you get paid for being abused .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you're self-employed, think twice before charging all those hours but charge a fee anyway.
If you're not, you make yourself available to the company during off-hours.
That takes a huge toll on your life which must be rewarded/taken back somehow.
Usually, between an individual and a company, this is done through money.
The company must pay for your on-call time, period.
For one thing, it'll prevent abuses or you get paid for being abused.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30280490</id>
	<title>Know your market.</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1259659140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How much does a geek doing the same stuff as you earns?</p><p>Once you know that then you can asses if what you are given is fair or not.</p><p>At some point on my career I was earning double what others in the same field, I was on call (on a rota of 2 or 3 depending on circumstances, you would be stupid to accept 24x7x365) and received no compensation, but clearly the salary and the exact limited situations in which I could be called out seemed fair to me (I was simply not contactable when it was not my turn to be oncall: both pager and mobile was off, my answering machine at home on to ensure I could vet callers first before answering).</p><p>In other situations when the salary was not that good, I made absolutely certain that I got compensated in one way or another for being oncall. It could be money, time or both. The important thing is that it should be clear to both parties how compensation is handled.</p><p>If you are working without being compensated it is down to your own stupidity. Sorry, but there is no nice way to put it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How much does a geek doing the same stuff as you earns ? Once you know that then you can asses if what you are given is fair or not.At some point on my career I was earning double what others in the same field , I was on call ( on a rota of 2 or 3 depending on circumstances , you would be stupid to accept 24x7x365 ) and received no compensation , but clearly the salary and the exact limited situations in which I could be called out seemed fair to me ( I was simply not contactable when it was not my turn to be oncall : both pager and mobile was off , my answering machine at home on to ensure I could vet callers first before answering ) .In other situations when the salary was not that good , I made absolutely certain that I got compensated in one way or another for being oncall .
It could be money , time or both .
The important thing is that it should be clear to both parties how compensation is handled.If you are working without being compensated it is down to your own stupidity .
Sorry , but there is no nice way to put it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How much does a geek doing the same stuff as you earns?Once you know that then you can asses if what you are given is fair or not.At some point on my career I was earning double what others in the same field, I was on call (on a rota of 2 or 3 depending on circumstances, you would be stupid to accept 24x7x365) and received no compensation, but clearly the salary and the exact limited situations in which I could be called out seemed fair to me (I was simply not contactable when it was not my turn to be oncall: both pager and mobile was off, my answering machine at home on to ensure I could vet callers first before answering).In other situations when the salary was not that good, I made absolutely certain that I got compensated in one way or another for being oncall.
It could be money, time or both.
The important thing is that it should be clear to both parties how compensation is handled.If you are working without being compensated it is down to your own stupidity.
Sorry, but there is no nice way to put it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278358</id>
	<title>Re:Nurses Do</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259593500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Mod parent up.  If discussing one industry's on call policies is offtopic in a story <i>about</i> on call policies, which explicitly asks for other peoples experiences with on call policies, then I'm Genghis Khan.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Mod parent up .
If discussing one industry 's on call policies is offtopic in a story about on call policies , which explicitly asks for other peoples experiences with on call policies , then I 'm Genghis Khan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mod parent up.
If discussing one industry's on call policies is offtopic in a story about on call policies, which explicitly asks for other peoples experiences with on call policies, then I'm Genghis Khan.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273302</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273796</id>
	<title>Re:There seems to be some confusion here...</title>
	<author>CAIMLAS</author>
	<datestamp>1259572200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>More often than not, I've noticed that in a smaller environment (ie not a corporate network or server farm where you've got an IT culture) they'll rarely tell you up-front that you're going to be on-call.</p><p>One place I worked at didn't tell me there'd be 24h on-call until after I'd moved my family 800 miles. Oh, and it was an hourly position, with no stipulations for "on call". Yeah, that whole situation was fun.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>More often than not , I 've noticed that in a smaller environment ( ie not a corporate network or server farm where you 've got an IT culture ) they 'll rarely tell you up-front that you 're going to be on-call.One place I worked at did n't tell me there 'd be 24h on-call until after I 'd moved my family 800 miles .
Oh , and it was an hourly position , with no stipulations for " on call " .
Yeah , that whole situation was fun .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>More often than not, I've noticed that in a smaller environment (ie not a corporate network or server farm where you've got an IT culture) they'll rarely tell you up-front that you're going to be on-call.One place I worked at didn't tell me there'd be 24h on-call until after I'd moved my family 800 miles.
Oh, and it was an hourly position, with no stipulations for "on call".
Yeah, that whole situation was fun.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273262</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273666</id>
	<title>On call at small company.</title>
	<author>neowolf</author>
	<datestamp>1259571720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My company is strictly 8-5 M-F, but of course we have to keep email, Web, and database servers online 24/7. My staff and I are "on call" all the time, with a "phone tree" sort of system for people to reach us if there is an "emergency", usually something like a power failure or "I can't get my email!". We are all salaried, so there is no OT. Any time spent on actual calls is rounded up to the next hour (I actually take into account the circumstances and will round it up even more for my staff) and is paid back as comp-time. The advantage of a "phone tree" is nobody has to work vacation or family time around an "on call" schedule, and nobody has to be tied to a cell phone or pager for any length of time. We just make sure that at least one person in our department is always available. It isn't a perfect system, but it works for us.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My company is strictly 8-5 M-F , but of course we have to keep email , Web , and database servers online 24/7 .
My staff and I are " on call " all the time , with a " phone tree " sort of system for people to reach us if there is an " emergency " , usually something like a power failure or " I ca n't get my email ! " .
We are all salaried , so there is no OT .
Any time spent on actual calls is rounded up to the next hour ( I actually take into account the circumstances and will round it up even more for my staff ) and is paid back as comp-time .
The advantage of a " phone tree " is nobody has to work vacation or family time around an " on call " schedule , and nobody has to be tied to a cell phone or pager for any length of time .
We just make sure that at least one person in our department is always available .
It is n't a perfect system , but it works for us .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My company is strictly 8-5 M-F, but of course we have to keep email, Web, and database servers online 24/7.
My staff and I are "on call" all the time, with a "phone tree" sort of system for people to reach us if there is an "emergency", usually something like a power failure or "I can't get my email!".
We are all salaried, so there is no OT.
Any time spent on actual calls is rounded up to the next hour (I actually take into account the circumstances and will round it up even more for my staff) and is paid back as comp-time.
The advantage of a "phone tree" is nobody has to work vacation or family time around an "on call" schedule, and nobody has to be tied to a cell phone or pager for any length of time.
We just make sure that at least one person in our department is always available.
It isn't a perfect system, but it works for us.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275046</id>
	<title>But what if it's your fault?</title>
	<author>Corbets</author>
	<datestamp>1259577120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's a pretty big flaw with the firefighter analogy - firefighters rarely get called in to put out blazes they started.</p><p>I've done my share of time on the on-call rotation, and while many times you get called in for things that you couldn't have prevented, often you get rung for things you should have seen and prevented. Or that your coworkers should have - but they experience the same with things you should have seen.</p><p>I'm not going to go so far as to say it's the majority of times, but everyone demanding that they need to be paid for on-call service should stop and give that little thought some consideration; does your employer mandate that you pay him/her for the time when you've brought systems offline? Because that might cost a fair bit more than him/her paying you for the time you lost due to things that were nobody's fault.</p><p>There's a happy medium somewhere, and I don't know exactly where it is... but stop and think for a while.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a pretty big flaw with the firefighter analogy - firefighters rarely get called in to put out blazes they started.I 've done my share of time on the on-call rotation , and while many times you get called in for things that you could n't have prevented , often you get rung for things you should have seen and prevented .
Or that your coworkers should have - but they experience the same with things you should have seen.I 'm not going to go so far as to say it 's the majority of times , but everyone demanding that they need to be paid for on-call service should stop and give that little thought some consideration ; does your employer mandate that you pay him/her for the time when you 've brought systems offline ?
Because that might cost a fair bit more than him/her paying you for the time you lost due to things that were nobody 's fault.There 's a happy medium somewhere , and I do n't know exactly where it is... but stop and think for a while .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a pretty big flaw with the firefighter analogy - firefighters rarely get called in to put out blazes they started.I've done my share of time on the on-call rotation, and while many times you get called in for things that you couldn't have prevented, often you get rung for things you should have seen and prevented.
Or that your coworkers should have - but they experience the same with things you should have seen.I'm not going to go so far as to say it's the majority of times, but everyone demanding that they need to be paid for on-call service should stop and give that little thought some consideration; does your employer mandate that you pay him/her for the time when you've brought systems offline?
Because that might cost a fair bit more than him/her paying you for the time you lost due to things that were nobody's fault.There's a happy medium somewhere, and I don't know exactly where it is... but stop and think for a while.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278746</id>
	<title>Pay people to be available or risk them leaving.</title>
	<author>djh101010</author>
	<datestamp>1259597160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have a very talented team of guys working for me.  At this time, I pull a call rotation just like they do.  Our employer pays us about 100 bucks a week when we're on call, to be available.  It really mostly means just weekends, as we have 24x5 coverage.

I've worked a lot of jobs where on-call wasn't paid, and, every time, being paged was mightily annoying.  At least now it pays a bit.  Being able to tell a prospective hire who I want to come work for me that on-call actually pays 100 bux a week, has helped me to land at least 2 of the last 4 people I've hired.  It's not a big expense for the employer, and your talent that you want to hire will see you as better than the other potential employers if you pay for on-call.

The market for Unix admins especially, is getting much better in the last 6 months (for job seekers).  If you don't offer your potential hires some sort of differentiating factor, you risk losing them to those of us who understand that talent warrants respect, which is best shown to techies in the form of payment.

Translation for managers: Trust your techie team leads; pay your techies for the extra work they do.  If you respect them, they'll work harder for you.  If you pull the "your job is to be here 9 to 5, on-call hours don't change that" crap, then I will be happy to hire them away from you as someone who DOES respect the techies.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a very talented team of guys working for me .
At this time , I pull a call rotation just like they do .
Our employer pays us about 100 bucks a week when we 're on call , to be available .
It really mostly means just weekends , as we have 24x5 coverage .
I 've worked a lot of jobs where on-call was n't paid , and , every time , being paged was mightily annoying .
At least now it pays a bit .
Being able to tell a prospective hire who I want to come work for me that on-call actually pays 100 bux a week , has helped me to land at least 2 of the last 4 people I 've hired .
It 's not a big expense for the employer , and your talent that you want to hire will see you as better than the other potential employers if you pay for on-call .
The market for Unix admins especially , is getting much better in the last 6 months ( for job seekers ) .
If you do n't offer your potential hires some sort of differentiating factor , you risk losing them to those of us who understand that talent warrants respect , which is best shown to techies in the form of payment .
Translation for managers : Trust your techie team leads ; pay your techies for the extra work they do .
If you respect them , they 'll work harder for you .
If you pull the " your job is to be here 9 to 5 , on-call hours do n't change that " crap , then I will be happy to hire them away from you as someone who DOES respect the techies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a very talented team of guys working for me.
At this time, I pull a call rotation just like they do.
Our employer pays us about 100 bucks a week when we're on call, to be available.
It really mostly means just weekends, as we have 24x5 coverage.
I've worked a lot of jobs where on-call wasn't paid, and, every time, being paged was mightily annoying.
At least now it pays a bit.
Being able to tell a prospective hire who I want to come work for me that on-call actually pays 100 bux a week, has helped me to land at least 2 of the last 4 people I've hired.
It's not a big expense for the employer, and your talent that you want to hire will see you as better than the other potential employers if you pay for on-call.
The market for Unix admins especially, is getting much better in the last 6 months (for job seekers).
If you don't offer your potential hires some sort of differentiating factor, you risk losing them to those of us who understand that talent warrants respect, which is best shown to techies in the form of payment.
Translation for managers: Trust your techie team leads; pay your techies for the extra work they do.
If you respect them, they'll work harder for you.
If you pull the "your job is to be here 9 to 5, on-call hours don't change that" crap, then I will be happy to hire them away from you as someone who DOES respect the techies.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273428</id>
	<title>Contract or support agreement should specify</title>
	<author>jeffshoaf</author>
	<datestamp>1259614260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Since he's an independant webmaster, he should have a contract or support agreement with his clients and all of that should be spelled out so that everyone knows what to expect - if the contract says he's available 40 hours a week within specific hours, then that's when he should be available. If his clients want more support than that, then the contract or agreement should specify what that additional support costs.<br> <br>
Support requirements really aren't given the priority they need... When my boss came to me to get my opinion on trying to commercialize some of the apps I had developed for internal use, my first question was "How are we going to provide support?" She didn't have an answer and the apps weren't commercialized.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Since he 's an independant webmaster , he should have a contract or support agreement with his clients and all of that should be spelled out so that everyone knows what to expect - if the contract says he 's available 40 hours a week within specific hours , then that 's when he should be available .
If his clients want more support than that , then the contract or agreement should specify what that additional support costs .
Support requirements really are n't given the priority they need... When my boss came to me to get my opinion on trying to commercialize some of the apps I had developed for internal use , my first question was " How are we going to provide support ?
" She did n't have an answer and the apps were n't commercialized .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Since he's an independant webmaster, he should have a contract or support agreement with his clients and all of that should be spelled out so that everyone knows what to expect - if the contract says he's available 40 hours a week within specific hours, then that's when he should be available.
If his clients want more support than that, then the contract or agreement should specify what that additional support costs.
Support requirements really aren't given the priority they need... When my boss came to me to get my opinion on trying to commercialize some of the apps I had developed for internal use, my first question was "How are we going to provide support?
" She didn't have an answer and the apps weren't commercialized.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273624</id>
	<title>RSA Security</title>
	<author>jjohnson</author>
	<datestamp>1259571600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I worked at RSA Security in their tech support department, we were paid $300 to be on call for the weekend, meaning carrying the company cell phone and being no more than 30 minutes from some way to handle a support case (VPN to the office was fine).  For each call/case we received (I think) $75.  Overall a pretty good deal for people handling products like ClearTrust, FIM, or Keon; not so good for the SecurId guys, who could make $1,000 on a busy weekend by working full time.  They were guaranteed to get a bunch of cases; we weren't.</p><p>One amusing story a SecurId guy told me:  There was extra pressure on them to handle cases quickly because, when you get fired, one of the first things they do is de-activate your token.  If the server crashes on a Sunday morning, everyone who tries to authenticate from home can't log in and thinks they've been fired.  Monday morning half your company is spamming resumes to your competitors.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I worked at RSA Security in their tech support department , we were paid $ 300 to be on call for the weekend , meaning carrying the company cell phone and being no more than 30 minutes from some way to handle a support case ( VPN to the office was fine ) .
For each call/case we received ( I think ) $ 75 .
Overall a pretty good deal for people handling products like ClearTrust , FIM , or Keon ; not so good for the SecurId guys , who could make $ 1,000 on a busy weekend by working full time .
They were guaranteed to get a bunch of cases ; we were n't.One amusing story a SecurId guy told me : There was extra pressure on them to handle cases quickly because , when you get fired , one of the first things they do is de-activate your token .
If the server crashes on a Sunday morning , everyone who tries to authenticate from home ca n't log in and thinks they 've been fired .
Monday morning half your company is spamming resumes to your competitors .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I worked at RSA Security in their tech support department, we were paid $300 to be on call for the weekend, meaning carrying the company cell phone and being no more than 30 minutes from some way to handle a support case (VPN to the office was fine).
For each call/case we received (I think) $75.
Overall a pretty good deal for people handling products like ClearTrust, FIM, or Keon; not so good for the SecurId guys, who could make $1,000 on a busy weekend by working full time.
They were guaranteed to get a bunch of cases; we weren't.One amusing story a SecurId guy told me:  There was extra pressure on them to handle cases quickly because, when you get fired, one of the first things they do is de-activate your token.
If the server crashes on a Sunday morning, everyone who tries to authenticate from home can't log in and thinks they've been fired.
Monday morning half your company is spamming resumes to your competitors.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274974</id>
	<title>In an ideal world...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259576820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...this would be a non-issue.  Money wouldn't exist, most things would be automated, and humans would be freed from boring, repetitive, stressful tasks like this.  Unfortunately, most are stuck with their heads up their asses with the idea firmly ingrained that, "it's just the way it is."  Well, it doesn't have to be this way and all who blindly support the monetary system need to realize that.</p><p>The fact of the matter is, your boss, no matter where you work or what you do, is going to try to fuck you one way or another all while smiling to your face.  Corrupt behavior is inherent in our social structure.  It's no surprise that people get laid off, that banks get bailed out, or that companies are allowed to pollute our planet at astonishing rates; when the primary goal is profit, all conflicting interests lose out.  You can't expect people to behave decently to one another in this kind of system, because the system rewards corrupt behavior.</p><p>If you'd really like to learn more about the situation we're in, it's in your best interest to watch this movie: <a href="http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/" title="zeitgeistmovie.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/</a> [zeitgeistmovie.com].  Please make an effort to educate yourself, because we need all the help we can get.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...this would be a non-issue .
Money would n't exist , most things would be automated , and humans would be freed from boring , repetitive , stressful tasks like this .
Unfortunately , most are stuck with their heads up their asses with the idea firmly ingrained that , " it 's just the way it is .
" Well , it does n't have to be this way and all who blindly support the monetary system need to realize that.The fact of the matter is , your boss , no matter where you work or what you do , is going to try to fuck you one way or another all while smiling to your face .
Corrupt behavior is inherent in our social structure .
It 's no surprise that people get laid off , that banks get bailed out , or that companies are allowed to pollute our planet at astonishing rates ; when the primary goal is profit , all conflicting interests lose out .
You ca n't expect people to behave decently to one another in this kind of system , because the system rewards corrupt behavior.If you 'd really like to learn more about the situation we 're in , it 's in your best interest to watch this movie : http : //www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ [ zeitgeistmovie.com ] .
Please make an effort to educate yourself , because we need all the help we can get .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...this would be a non-issue.
Money wouldn't exist, most things would be automated, and humans would be freed from boring, repetitive, stressful tasks like this.
Unfortunately, most are stuck with their heads up their asses with the idea firmly ingrained that, "it's just the way it is.
"  Well, it doesn't have to be this way and all who blindly support the monetary system need to realize that.The fact of the matter is, your boss, no matter where you work or what you do, is going to try to fuck you one way or another all while smiling to your face.
Corrupt behavior is inherent in our social structure.
It's no surprise that people get laid off, that banks get bailed out, or that companies are allowed to pollute our planet at astonishing rates; when the primary goal is profit, all conflicting interests lose out.
You can't expect people to behave decently to one another in this kind of system, because the system rewards corrupt behavior.If you'd really like to learn more about the situation we're in, it's in your best interest to watch this movie: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ [zeitgeistmovie.com].
Please make an effort to educate yourself, because we need all the help we can get.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273650</id>
	<title>Yes you should</title>
	<author>Chanc\_Gorkon</author>
	<datestamp>1259571720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you are expected to have a response and fix things, then you need to be compensated for it.  We used to not have a system and boy did it suck.  Even with out getting "On Duty Pay", I can still get called.  My Mom in Law DIED and I was at a funeral and I sure would hate to have someone call me then.  Thank god my boss stopped the director in his tracks....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you are expected to have a response and fix things , then you need to be compensated for it .
We used to not have a system and boy did it suck .
Even with out getting " On Duty Pay " , I can still get called .
My Mom in Law DIED and I was at a funeral and I sure would hate to have someone call me then .
Thank god my boss stopped the director in his tracks... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you are expected to have a response and fix things, then you need to be compensated for it.
We used to not have a system and boy did it suck.
Even with out getting "On Duty Pay", I can still get called.
My Mom in Law DIED and I was at a funeral and I sure would hate to have someone call me then.
Thank god my boss stopped the director in his tracks....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273520</id>
	<title>$0.50/hour</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259614560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Where I work, we get $0.50/hour for being on-call. We get paid no extra for actually getting called. So I could end up driving into work at 3am and spending the next eight hours there, all at a third-world pay rate. It's legal to pay us less than minimum wage because we are "exempt," whatever that means. Sounds like some bullshit.</p><p>Yes, I'm looking for a better job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Where I work , we get $ 0.50/hour for being on-call .
We get paid no extra for actually getting called .
So I could end up driving into work at 3am and spending the next eight hours there , all at a third-world pay rate .
It 's legal to pay us less than minimum wage because we are " exempt , " whatever that means .
Sounds like some bullshit.Yes , I 'm looking for a better job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where I work, we get $0.50/hour for being on-call.
We get paid no extra for actually getting called.
So I could end up driving into work at 3am and spending the next eight hours there, all at a third-world pay rate.
It's legal to pay us less than minimum wage because we are "exempt," whatever that means.
Sounds like some bullshit.Yes, I'm looking for a better job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273990</id>
	<title>Tired...and looking</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259572860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I hired in, they told me there was 6 people on the team, so I assumed at worst a 5 person rotation (carry pager every 5th week; not too bad). Then, two months later, they said no, you are on call 7x24x365. They might be laughing now, but when I leave, they'll be scrambling to fill this position , which already had a high turnover rate! Never was a big fan of unions, but making me reconsider!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I hired in , they told me there was 6 people on the team , so I assumed at worst a 5 person rotation ( carry pager every 5th week ; not too bad ) .
Then , two months later , they said no , you are on call 7x24x365 .
They might be laughing now , but when I leave , they 'll be scrambling to fill this position , which already had a high turnover rate !
Never was a big fan of unions , but making me reconsider !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I hired in, they told me there was 6 people on the team, so I assumed at worst a 5 person rotation (carry pager every 5th week; not too bad).
Then, two months later, they said no, you are on call 7x24x365.
They might be laughing now, but when I leave, they'll be scrambling to fill this position , which already had a high turnover rate!
Never was a big fan of unions, but making me reconsider!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30277850</id>
	<title>We pay our employees a per diem, plus hours</title>
	<author>knewter</author>
	<datestamp>1259589180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I run a software company.  In the past, we'd have called employees if we needed them at night, but VERY rarely did that happen.  We have a new(-ish) customer that requires far more frequent support (i.e. I've worked every day for the last eight months).  This quickly became too much to ask of our employees.  They were getting calls from SOMEONE three and four nights a week, or close.  *I* was getting calls 24/7, and I'm not joking even a little bit.  Granted, overtime work - when they got calls - was time and a half, but it's stressful to be on call.  I started to feel like a dick, and so we figured out a way to fix it.</p><p>Anyway, we now require our new customer to pay us a per diem for each day for support.  We then pass that per diem on to the employees.  We pay them twice the per diem on the weekends.  They still get time and a half if they do work.</p><p>Before, I was on support more often than not, because the employees simply didn't want to be.  Once we instituted the per diem, the employees began clamoring for the chance to be on support.  My nightly workload has been reduced greatly (yay for mere 14 hour days!)</p><p>Anyway, moral of the story:</p><p>- Absolutely, any boss should agree that it's desirable to pay support personnel for on-call time.  For any bosses that disagree: you're a dick, and you apparently aren't aware.  Go ask someone "am I a dick?"  Preferably not an employee.  If one asked you to read this, PLEASE not that guy.<br>- Alright, so we agree that support personnel should ideally be paid.  That doesn't change the fact that *sometimes* struggling companies have a really, really, really hard time doing so without the company going under (the tough part about being the boss is COMPLETELY IGNORED BY EVERYONE, btw).  Don't demonize companies is this position, but if your boss is reasonable and in this position, approach him about it.  Ask him to read this post, or try to meaningfully convey the stress involved in being on call to him and that you feel it deserves compensation (it does).<br>- The easiest way for your boss to pull this off, in my experience, is to pass it through entirely to the customer(s).  This portion of the company's income should be ~profit neutral.  Do not expect a similar margin to normal work, bosses: you get paid on the overtime, and your employees stay around because you treat them awesomely, right?</p><p>Now the last part, from the boss's side:<br>- You will pay this per diem every day for support.  You will fight tooth and nail to negotiate it for them.<br>- Your employees will gladly take it.<br>- One day, after you've paid an employee a SHIT TON of money, he'll get an early morning support call and act like a complete dick to you.  This sucks.<br>- When it happens, it hardens your heart a little bit towards fighting tooth and nail for the next thing.</p><p>You know that sucks, right?  When you're a dick to your boss after he's foregone multiple paychecks historically to make payroll.  Right?  When he's still crawling his ass out of debt from building the company that pays you a per diem?</p><p>Rambling...but the truth must be told!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I run a software company .
In the past , we 'd have called employees if we needed them at night , but VERY rarely did that happen .
We have a new ( -ish ) customer that requires far more frequent support ( i.e .
I 've worked every day for the last eight months ) .
This quickly became too much to ask of our employees .
They were getting calls from SOMEONE three and four nights a week , or close .
* I * was getting calls 24/7 , and I 'm not joking even a little bit .
Granted , overtime work - when they got calls - was time and a half , but it 's stressful to be on call .
I started to feel like a dick , and so we figured out a way to fix it.Anyway , we now require our new customer to pay us a per diem for each day for support .
We then pass that per diem on to the employees .
We pay them twice the per diem on the weekends .
They still get time and a half if they do work.Before , I was on support more often than not , because the employees simply did n't want to be .
Once we instituted the per diem , the employees began clamoring for the chance to be on support .
My nightly workload has been reduced greatly ( yay for mere 14 hour days !
) Anyway , moral of the story : - Absolutely , any boss should agree that it 's desirable to pay support personnel for on-call time .
For any bosses that disagree : you 're a dick , and you apparently are n't aware .
Go ask someone " am I a dick ?
" Preferably not an employee .
If one asked you to read this , PLEASE not that guy.- Alright , so we agree that support personnel should ideally be paid .
That does n't change the fact that * sometimes * struggling companies have a really , really , really hard time doing so without the company going under ( the tough part about being the boss is COMPLETELY IGNORED BY EVERYONE , btw ) .
Do n't demonize companies is this position , but if your boss is reasonable and in this position , approach him about it .
Ask him to read this post , or try to meaningfully convey the stress involved in being on call to him and that you feel it deserves compensation ( it does ) .- The easiest way for your boss to pull this off , in my experience , is to pass it through entirely to the customer ( s ) .
This portion of the company 's income should be ~ profit neutral .
Do not expect a similar margin to normal work , bosses : you get paid on the overtime , and your employees stay around because you treat them awesomely , right ? Now the last part , from the boss 's side : - You will pay this per diem every day for support .
You will fight tooth and nail to negotiate it for them.- Your employees will gladly take it.- One day , after you 've paid an employee a SHIT TON of money , he 'll get an early morning support call and act like a complete dick to you .
This sucks.- When it happens , it hardens your heart a little bit towards fighting tooth and nail for the next thing.You know that sucks , right ?
When you 're a dick to your boss after he 's foregone multiple paychecks historically to make payroll .
Right ? When he 's still crawling his ass out of debt from building the company that pays you a per diem ? Rambling...but the truth must be told !
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I run a software company.
In the past, we'd have called employees if we needed them at night, but VERY rarely did that happen.
We have a new(-ish) customer that requires far more frequent support (i.e.
I've worked every day for the last eight months).
This quickly became too much to ask of our employees.
They were getting calls from SOMEONE three and four nights a week, or close.
*I* was getting calls 24/7, and I'm not joking even a little bit.
Granted, overtime work - when they got calls - was time and a half, but it's stressful to be on call.
I started to feel like a dick, and so we figured out a way to fix it.Anyway, we now require our new customer to pay us a per diem for each day for support.
We then pass that per diem on to the employees.
We pay them twice the per diem on the weekends.
They still get time and a half if they do work.Before, I was on support more often than not, because the employees simply didn't want to be.
Once we instituted the per diem, the employees began clamoring for the chance to be on support.
My nightly workload has been reduced greatly (yay for mere 14 hour days!
)Anyway, moral of the story:- Absolutely, any boss should agree that it's desirable to pay support personnel for on-call time.
For any bosses that disagree: you're a dick, and you apparently aren't aware.
Go ask someone "am I a dick?
"  Preferably not an employee.
If one asked you to read this, PLEASE not that guy.- Alright, so we agree that support personnel should ideally be paid.
That doesn't change the fact that *sometimes* struggling companies have a really, really, really hard time doing so without the company going under (the tough part about being the boss is COMPLETELY IGNORED BY EVERYONE, btw).
Don't demonize companies is this position, but if your boss is reasonable and in this position, approach him about it.
Ask him to read this post, or try to meaningfully convey the stress involved in being on call to him and that you feel it deserves compensation (it does).- The easiest way for your boss to pull this off, in my experience, is to pass it through entirely to the customer(s).
This portion of the company's income should be ~profit neutral.
Do not expect a similar margin to normal work, bosses: you get paid on the overtime, and your employees stay around because you treat them awesomely, right?Now the last part, from the boss's side:- You will pay this per diem every day for support.
You will fight tooth and nail to negotiate it for them.- Your employees will gladly take it.- One day, after you've paid an employee a SHIT TON of money, he'll get an early morning support call and act like a complete dick to you.
This sucks.- When it happens, it hardens your heart a little bit towards fighting tooth and nail for the next thing.You know that sucks, right?
When you're a dick to your boss after he's foregone multiple paychecks historically to make payroll.
Right?  When he's still crawling his ass out of debt from building the company that pays you a per diem?Rambling...but the truth must be told!
:)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276742</id>
	<title>Re:There seems to be some confusion here...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259583300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He also needs to tell us what he is getting called in to do.</p><p>Our server guy is hourly but if a server goes down when he is not here, you bet im calling his ass.  If he can't keep the servers working i'm going to replace.</p><p>If someone needs something updated on the website, I'll remind them they need to give us 24 hours for any request and I'll leave a note on the web guys desk.</p><p>No way should a content guy be on call.  If the server is also his to take care of then he needs to take care of it.  Thats just what I think.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He also needs to tell us what he is getting called in to do.Our server guy is hourly but if a server goes down when he is not here , you bet im calling his ass .
If he ca n't keep the servers working i 'm going to replace.If someone needs something updated on the website , I 'll remind them they need to give us 24 hours for any request and I 'll leave a note on the web guys desk.No way should a content guy be on call .
If the server is also his to take care of then he needs to take care of it .
Thats just what I think .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He also needs to tell us what he is getting called in to do.Our server guy is hourly but if a server goes down when he is not here, you bet im calling his ass.
If he can't keep the servers working i'm going to replace.If someone needs something updated on the website, I'll remind them they need to give us 24 hours for any request and I'll leave a note on the web guys desk.No way should a content guy be on call.
If the server is also his to take care of then he needs to take care of it.
Thats just what I think.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273750</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30279848</id>
	<title>Firefighters go home too</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259607300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I worked as a primary source for a 911 Fire/Ambulance call center for a city of 1.1 million.  I would swap with one other person on a week by week basis.  Firefighters and ambulance crews were all on call for their shifts, but went home (and were logged off the system).  I was carrying a pager 24/7 and *Would* get paid for carrying it.  When I got a call at 3:00 AM, I would bill for my time.  Sometimes my supervisor disagreed with the billing, stating that the call was not urgent and could have waited till morning.  I don't work there anymore.  When the phone rings/pager beeps at 3:00 AM, your sleep is interrupted.  People on the other end want service....right now.  It was always at tough call: is this call important enough or not.  Sometimes I would pass it off as unimportant and leave it for morning.  Sometimes I would take care of the problem.  What really pissed me off was handling this kind of call once, being told its not important (and not paid) and the following week passing on the call and then being told that I should have done something right away (but still not paid for the previous week).  One time a major disaster happened (important server hard disk crash).  I changed the network name of a training server, and installed it.  There was no backup software (I wasn't there when the system was installed).  I configured most of the software to work with the new server and after several hours things were about 95\% back to normal.  I had the hardware vendor come in and swap memory from the old server to the new replacement (proprietary unix hardware).  I actually got paid for the work, but users were still whining about the last 5\% (changes made in the last 6 months when the system was already 8 years old, and overdue to be replaced).  I worked there for about 6 more months, but with so little joy, the compensation never fit effort, and when disaster struck, I was the man.  When new systems came in, I was junior junior support person.  Left out of loops/information/documentation and what I saw as left holding the bag for others bad decisions, I left (they weren't happy), but at least I'm paid for what I do now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I worked as a primary source for a 911 Fire/Ambulance call center for a city of 1.1 million .
I would swap with one other person on a week by week basis .
Firefighters and ambulance crews were all on call for their shifts , but went home ( and were logged off the system ) .
I was carrying a pager 24/7 and * Would * get paid for carrying it .
When I got a call at 3 : 00 AM , I would bill for my time .
Sometimes my supervisor disagreed with the billing , stating that the call was not urgent and could have waited till morning .
I do n't work there anymore .
When the phone rings/pager beeps at 3 : 00 AM , your sleep is interrupted .
People on the other end want service....right now .
It was always at tough call : is this call important enough or not .
Sometimes I would pass it off as unimportant and leave it for morning .
Sometimes I would take care of the problem .
What really pissed me off was handling this kind of call once , being told its not important ( and not paid ) and the following week passing on the call and then being told that I should have done something right away ( but still not paid for the previous week ) .
One time a major disaster happened ( important server hard disk crash ) .
I changed the network name of a training server , and installed it .
There was no backup software ( I was n't there when the system was installed ) .
I configured most of the software to work with the new server and after several hours things were about 95 \ % back to normal .
I had the hardware vendor come in and swap memory from the old server to the new replacement ( proprietary unix hardware ) .
I actually got paid for the work , but users were still whining about the last 5 \ % ( changes made in the last 6 months when the system was already 8 years old , and overdue to be replaced ) .
I worked there for about 6 more months , but with so little joy , the compensation never fit effort , and when disaster struck , I was the man .
When new systems came in , I was junior junior support person .
Left out of loops/information/documentation and what I saw as left holding the bag for others bad decisions , I left ( they were n't happy ) , but at least I 'm paid for what I do now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I worked as a primary source for a 911 Fire/Ambulance call center for a city of 1.1 million.
I would swap with one other person on a week by week basis.
Firefighters and ambulance crews were all on call for their shifts, but went home (and were logged off the system).
I was carrying a pager 24/7 and *Would* get paid for carrying it.
When I got a call at 3:00 AM, I would bill for my time.
Sometimes my supervisor disagreed with the billing, stating that the call was not urgent and could have waited till morning.
I don't work there anymore.
When the phone rings/pager beeps at 3:00 AM, your sleep is interrupted.
People on the other end want service....right now.
It was always at tough call: is this call important enough or not.
Sometimes I would pass it off as unimportant and leave it for morning.
Sometimes I would take care of the problem.
What really pissed me off was handling this kind of call once, being told its not important (and not paid) and the following week passing on the call and then being told that I should have done something right away (but still not paid for the previous week).
One time a major disaster happened (important server hard disk crash).
I changed the network name of a training server, and installed it.
There was no backup software (I wasn't there when the system was installed).
I configured most of the software to work with the new server and after several hours things were about 95\% back to normal.
I had the hardware vendor come in and swap memory from the old server to the new replacement (proprietary unix hardware).
I actually got paid for the work, but users were still whining about the last 5\% (changes made in the last 6 months when the system was already 8 years old, and overdue to be replaced).
I worked there for about 6 more months, but with so little joy, the compensation never fit effort, and when disaster struck, I was the man.
When new systems came in, I was junior junior support person.
Left out of loops/information/documentation and what I saw as left holding the bag for others bad decisions, I left (they weren't happy), but at least I'm paid for what I do now.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273788</id>
	<title>Comp time</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259572200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We rotate weekly on-call duties between 8 people.</p><p>A week of on-call gets you one extra vacation day.  Some weeks you might get 1 or 2 15 minute calls.  Others might have you working all night.</p><p>It all evens out in the end and an extra 6 vacation days is worth it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We rotate weekly on-call duties between 8 people.A week of on-call gets you one extra vacation day .
Some weeks you might get 1 or 2 15 minute calls .
Others might have you working all night.It all evens out in the end and an extra 6 vacation days is worth it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We rotate weekly on-call duties between 8 people.A week of on-call gets you one extra vacation day.
Some weeks you might get 1 or 2 15 minute calls.
Others might have you working all night.It all evens out in the end and an extra 6 vacation days is worth it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273516</id>
	<title>Law varies from state to state</title>
	<author>Archfeld</author>
	<datestamp>1259614500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>But in California I was always payed 2 hours for responding to a page, just carrying the pager was considered a 'better' alternative to requiring after-hours onsite staff.
This was a large financial institution, and I was a Unix Systems Engineer, one among 8 or 10. Once I moved to a smaller venue, ie development lab and system support, the pager time dramatically decreased and was swapped with comp time as it arose. I don't think you are going to get payed up front for carrying the pager but you DO have a right to get payed if a response is required, and if you are required to remain within a certain distance from home or work you might have a valid issue as well.<br>
<a href="http://www.gotovertime.com/facts.html#myth\_comp" title="gotovertime.com">http://www.gotovertime.com/facts.html#myth\_comp</a> [gotovertime.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>But in California I was always payed 2 hours for responding to a page , just carrying the pager was considered a 'better ' alternative to requiring after-hours onsite staff .
This was a large financial institution , and I was a Unix Systems Engineer , one among 8 or 10 .
Once I moved to a smaller venue , ie development lab and system support , the pager time dramatically decreased and was swapped with comp time as it arose .
I do n't think you are going to get payed up front for carrying the pager but you DO have a right to get payed if a response is required , and if you are required to remain within a certain distance from home or work you might have a valid issue as well .
http : //www.gotovertime.com/facts.html # myth \ _comp [ gotovertime.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But in California I was always payed 2 hours for responding to a page, just carrying the pager was considered a 'better' alternative to requiring after-hours onsite staff.
This was a large financial institution, and I was a Unix Systems Engineer, one among 8 or 10.
Once I moved to a smaller venue, ie development lab and system support, the pager time dramatically decreased and was swapped with comp time as it arose.
I don't think you are going to get payed up front for carrying the pager but you DO have a right to get payed if a response is required, and if you are required to remain within a certain distance from home or work you might have a valid issue as well.
http://www.gotovertime.com/facts.html#myth\_comp [gotovertime.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274750</id>
	<title>Re:A contractor?</title>
	<author>SatanicPuppy</author>
	<datestamp>1259575740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What you really mean is, "Don't sign up to be on call without working out a decent employment contract."</p><p>This joker basically took whatever they offered him, and now he doesn't like it. Well, that's not exactly a surprise. He signed up for unlimited unpaid overtime.</p><p>There are a lot of ways you can get compensated for time spent on call. I've worked at places where the time was counted as actual work time at time and a half, so if I work 20 hours of on call, I get credited for 30 hours of work, and can work a one-day week to catch up. Likewise, I've worked places where its factored into the base salary.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What you really mean is , " Do n't sign up to be on call without working out a decent employment contract .
" This joker basically took whatever they offered him , and now he does n't like it .
Well , that 's not exactly a surprise .
He signed up for unlimited unpaid overtime.There are a lot of ways you can get compensated for time spent on call .
I 've worked at places where the time was counted as actual work time at time and a half , so if I work 20 hours of on call , I get credited for 30 hours of work , and can work a one-day week to catch up .
Likewise , I 've worked places where its factored into the base salary .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What you really mean is, "Don't sign up to be on call without working out a decent employment contract.
"This joker basically took whatever they offered him, and now he doesn't like it.
Well, that's not exactly a surprise.
He signed up for unlimited unpaid overtime.There are a lot of ways you can get compensated for time spent on call.
I've worked at places where the time was counted as actual work time at time and a half, so if I work 20 hours of on call, I get credited for 30 hours of work, and can work a one-day week to catch up.
Likewise, I've worked places where its factored into the base salary.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273298</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30277858</id>
	<title>What a cry baby...</title>
	<author>johnlcallaway</author>
	<datestamp>1259589180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>First off<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... he is an independent contractor.  If he doesn't like being on call for his clients, he needs to negotiate his rates accordingly.
<br> <br>
If he can't change his rates because someone else is willing to do it, then tough. That's what the world of contracting is all about. Sorry your company laid you off and then re-hired you this way. Get off your ass and get another job, and deal with it until you can.  If you can't get another job, maybe you just aren't that good. Deal with that also, it means you have to take the shit jobs to earn a living.
<br> <br>
And why is a webmaster being called at all hours of the day and night?? Is it because the site keeps going down?? Then it's your own fucking fault<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. fix it and learn how to build sites that don't crash.  If it's because you are installing on the weekends, I guess that means you don't have to work on Monday, do you.
<br> <br>
Get some cajones and learn to stand up and take responsibility for your own life.  You let people take advantage of you, this happens.</htmltext>
<tokenext>First off ... he is an independent contractor .
If he does n't like being on call for his clients , he needs to negotiate his rates accordingly .
If he ca n't change his rates because someone else is willing to do it , then tough .
That 's what the world of contracting is all about .
Sorry your company laid you off and then re-hired you this way .
Get off your ass and get another job , and deal with it until you can .
If you ca n't get another job , maybe you just are n't that good .
Deal with that also , it means you have to take the shit jobs to earn a living .
And why is a webmaster being called at all hours of the day and night ? ?
Is it because the site keeps going down ? ?
Then it 's your own fucking fault .. fix it and learn how to build sites that do n't crash .
If it 's because you are installing on the weekends , I guess that means you do n't have to work on Monday , do you .
Get some cajones and learn to stand up and take responsibility for your own life .
You let people take advantage of you , this happens .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First off ... he is an independent contractor.
If he doesn't like being on call for his clients, he needs to negotiate his rates accordingly.
If he can't change his rates because someone else is willing to do it, then tough.
That's what the world of contracting is all about.
Sorry your company laid you off and then re-hired you this way.
Get off your ass and get another job, and deal with it until you can.
If you can't get another job, maybe you just aren't that good.
Deal with that also, it means you have to take the shit jobs to earn a living.
And why is a webmaster being called at all hours of the day and night??
Is it because the site keeps going down??
Then it's your own fucking fault .. fix it and learn how to build sites that don't crash.
If it's because you are installing on the weekends, I guess that means you don't have to work on Monday, do you.
Get some cajones and learn to stand up and take responsibility for your own life.
You let people take advantage of you, this happens.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274594</id>
	<title>Don't like it? Don't do it!</title>
	<author>ect5150</author>
	<datestamp>1259575140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree in principle with most of what has been said above... but go find another job if you don't like it.

However, in this economy, with unemployment over 10\%, be wary of what you wish for.  I bet there are plenty of people right now that would take a job with being "on-call" at any wage rate.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree in principle with most of what has been said above... but go find another job if you do n't like it .
However , in this economy , with unemployment over 10 \ % , be wary of what you wish for .
I bet there are plenty of people right now that would take a job with being " on-call " at any wage rate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree in principle with most of what has been said above... but go find another job if you don't like it.
However, in this economy, with unemployment over 10\%, be wary of what you wish for.
I bet there are plenty of people right now that would take a job with being "on-call" at any wage rate.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275790</id>
	<title>Comp time</title>
	<author>nurb432</author>
	<datestamp>1259579820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Problem solved.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Problem solved .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Problem solved.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274562</id>
	<title>Re:hospital model...</title>
	<author>IGnatius T Foobar</author>
	<datestamp>1259574960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I work for a technology company that was started by a doctor.  We actually <i>do</i> follow the hospital model.  The on-call tech sleeps in a dormitory at the office, and gets paid for the shift.  During that time he is expected to respond to the pager, the telephone, and the front door.  He gets paid the same amount of money for the shift, regardless of whether he slept for eight hours or had a hellish night of one crisis after another (normally it's somewhere in between).  It's not a perfect system, but it does seem to work pretty well.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I work for a technology company that was started by a doctor .
We actually do follow the hospital model .
The on-call tech sleeps in a dormitory at the office , and gets paid for the shift .
During that time he is expected to respond to the pager , the telephone , and the front door .
He gets paid the same amount of money for the shift , regardless of whether he slept for eight hours or had a hellish night of one crisis after another ( normally it 's somewhere in between ) .
It 's not a perfect system , but it does seem to work pretty well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work for a technology company that was started by a doctor.
We actually do follow the hospital model.
The on-call tech sleeps in a dormitory at the office, and gets paid for the shift.
During that time he is expected to respond to the pager, the telephone, and the front door.
He gets paid the same amount of money for the shift, regardless of whether he slept for eight hours or had a hellish night of one crisis after another (normally it's somewhere in between).
It's not a perfect system, but it does seem to work pretty well.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30281238</id>
	<title>Yes, but get it in writing</title>
	<author>CoolCalmChris</author>
	<datestamp>1259666820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One of the legal support companies I worked for in the late 90s was notorious for the "Can you do this on your way home?" kind of jobs that would involve me having to race to the courthouse at the last minute or do a stakeout when I should have been at home or at the bar.</p><p>The straw that broke the camel's back was being dispatched a filing at 5:30 pm that had to be in a dropbox at the US District Court across town by 6:00 that had been booked at 2:30 and had been sitting on a counter in the mail room at the law firm since 4 pm. When I came in the next day and informed them that I wasn't going to cover the dispatcher's ass anymore, I was told that my job was contingent upon doing whatever I was told. I responded that since I was on salary, expecting me to do drop dead work after hours for no compensation was off the table and that any lack of planning or competence on their part did not constitute an emergency or cause for charity on my part.</p><p>
.
</p><p>After about fifteen minutes of going back and forth and getting nowhere I handed them my pager and my paperwork and told them that if I was getting such a great deal, they would have no problem finding a qualified replacement on short notice.</p><p>In short, I should have negotiated a better deal when I was hired and gotten it in writing but I was offered what seemed like a good salary...for a 9 to 5 position. Pig in a poke, I guess.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One of the legal support companies I worked for in the late 90s was notorious for the " Can you do this on your way home ?
" kind of jobs that would involve me having to race to the courthouse at the last minute or do a stakeout when I should have been at home or at the bar.The straw that broke the camel 's back was being dispatched a filing at 5 : 30 pm that had to be in a dropbox at the US District Court across town by 6 : 00 that had been booked at 2 : 30 and had been sitting on a counter in the mail room at the law firm since 4 pm .
When I came in the next day and informed them that I was n't going to cover the dispatcher 's ass anymore , I was told that my job was contingent upon doing whatever I was told .
I responded that since I was on salary , expecting me to do drop dead work after hours for no compensation was off the table and that any lack of planning or competence on their part did not constitute an emergency or cause for charity on my part .
. After about fifteen minutes of going back and forth and getting nowhere I handed them my pager and my paperwork and told them that if I was getting such a great deal , they would have no problem finding a qualified replacement on short notice.In short , I should have negotiated a better deal when I was hired and gotten it in writing but I was offered what seemed like a good salary...for a 9 to 5 position .
Pig in a poke , I guess .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One of the legal support companies I worked for in the late 90s was notorious for the "Can you do this on your way home?
" kind of jobs that would involve me having to race to the courthouse at the last minute or do a stakeout when I should have been at home or at the bar.The straw that broke the camel's back was being dispatched a filing at 5:30 pm that had to be in a dropbox at the US District Court across town by 6:00 that had been booked at 2:30 and had been sitting on a counter in the mail room at the law firm since 4 pm.
When I came in the next day and informed them that I wasn't going to cover the dispatcher's ass anymore, I was told that my job was contingent upon doing whatever I was told.
I responded that since I was on salary, expecting me to do drop dead work after hours for no compensation was off the table and that any lack of planning or competence on their part did not constitute an emergency or cause for charity on my part.
.
After about fifteen minutes of going back and forth and getting nowhere I handed them my pager and my paperwork and told them that if I was getting such a great deal, they would have no problem finding a qualified replacement on short notice.In short, I should have negotiated a better deal when I was hired and gotten it in writing but I was offered what seemed like a good salary...for a 9 to 5 position.
Pig in a poke, I guess.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275290</id>
	<title>Contract means no pager</title>
	<author>Kagato</author>
	<datestamp>1259578140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Contract work usually gets one out of on-call.  I'm a resource at an hourly rate.  Just the fact that they would have to pay me as soon as the pager beeps is enough for me not to wear a pager the last 9 years.  Not to mention it's customer to pay an On-Call fee/rate.</p><p>Be that as it may, OT is generally not available for computer workers.  Most of us are compensated enough where OT laws no longer apply.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Contract work usually gets one out of on-call .
I 'm a resource at an hourly rate .
Just the fact that they would have to pay me as soon as the pager beeps is enough for me not to wear a pager the last 9 years .
Not to mention it 's customer to pay an On-Call fee/rate.Be that as it may , OT is generally not available for computer workers .
Most of us are compensated enough where OT laws no longer apply .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Contract work usually gets one out of on-call.
I'm a resource at an hourly rate.
Just the fact that they would have to pay me as soon as the pager beeps is enough for me not to wear a pager the last 9 years.
Not to mention it's customer to pay an On-Call fee/rate.Be that as it may, OT is generally not available for computer workers.
Most of us are compensated enough where OT laws no longer apply.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30284038</id>
	<title>On-call vs. on-the-clock</title>
	<author>woboyle</author>
	<datestamp>1259686560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A lot of IT support positions require on-call duties. I've been there, done that myself. However, if one is expected to be responsive during off-hours then two things need to be considered. One is that there should be some compensation for being available at all hours. Not at full salary/pay levels, but some financial incentive for those willing to be inconvenienced at the worst possible moments. Second, when the phone rings, whether a site visit is required or not, the overtime pay clock should start and not end until the call is complete, including travel time to/from the site if necessary. After all, if your support is a 3rd party person/organization, then they would properly insist on a retainer fee up front to cover the on-call clock for the period of the contract, and work clock time gets billed separately. Why should an employee who is expected to put in a regular shift on-site be treated any differently?</htmltext>
<tokenext>A lot of IT support positions require on-call duties .
I 've been there , done that myself .
However , if one is expected to be responsive during off-hours then two things need to be considered .
One is that there should be some compensation for being available at all hours .
Not at full salary/pay levels , but some financial incentive for those willing to be inconvenienced at the worst possible moments .
Second , when the phone rings , whether a site visit is required or not , the overtime pay clock should start and not end until the call is complete , including travel time to/from the site if necessary .
After all , if your support is a 3rd party person/organization , then they would properly insist on a retainer fee up front to cover the on-call clock for the period of the contract , and work clock time gets billed separately .
Why should an employee who is expected to put in a regular shift on-site be treated any differently ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A lot of IT support positions require on-call duties.
I've been there, done that myself.
However, if one is expected to be responsive during off-hours then two things need to be considered.
One is that there should be some compensation for being available at all hours.
Not at full salary/pay levels, but some financial incentive for those willing to be inconvenienced at the worst possible moments.
Second, when the phone rings, whether a site visit is required or not, the overtime pay clock should start and not end until the call is complete, including travel time to/from the site if necessary.
After all, if your support is a 3rd party person/organization, then they would properly insist on a retainer fee up front to cover the on-call clock for the period of the contract, and work clock time gets billed separately.
Why should an employee who is expected to put in a regular shift on-site be treated any differently?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30279416</id>
	<title>first class customer support</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259603100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In the early 90's just after  the condo market bubble burst in the North East, I was working for one of those Massachusetts 'Miracle' Computer companies which sold hardware by the pound with significant margins on support.   This company was second in the market to the segment leader Tandem.  When you're selling gear that is supposed to keep working 365x24 you have support to match - round-the-clock  level 1 who would get the box running again and then there was a cadre of level 2 primary and secondary on-call to deal with various specialties.  It was written that the primary on-call received 5\% of what they earned in a quarter additional per week on-call and secondary received 2.5\%.  Once you've done that math, that comes out to be 65\% weekly additional for primary and 32\% additional per-week secondary.   For critical issues (as most were once level 1 passed them up) the primary *had* to respond to the page within15 minutes and communicate with and able to be on-line with the customers machine with in 30 minutes and continue working the issue until it was worked-around, fixed or passed off to the day shift.  Cell phones were in bags the size of car batteries and only slightly lighter, your home *terminal* connected via 28,800bps modem (maybe a bit more if you shelled out thousand-plus for one with compression.)  When customers called our support figured out what the problem was, even if it wasn't in the gear we sold. If you were secondary on-call you had 30 minutes to get to the customer, which if you were out meant asking for that meal to go or just paying and leaving.</p><p>Today they give you a cell phone, a lap top, DSL or cable modem to facilitate your spending far more time doing their shit and sort of expect you to be at their beck and call.  Since then in start-ups out here, I can't say I know too many techies who worked 40 hour weeks. Those I've worked for provided comp.time for severe impositions due to after-hours incidents, usually immediate (as in next morning or day off.) When on-call loads and rotations became more formal it was trading an evening of on-call with a day off.</p><p>You can ask for whatever you want,  however keep in mind with unemployment pushing double digits odds are there is someone out there whom is hungrier for the work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In the early 90 's just after the condo market bubble burst in the North East , I was working for one of those Massachusetts 'Miracle ' Computer companies which sold hardware by the pound with significant margins on support .
This company was second in the market to the segment leader Tandem .
When you 're selling gear that is supposed to keep working 365x24 you have support to match - round-the-clock level 1 who would get the box running again and then there was a cadre of level 2 primary and secondary on-call to deal with various specialties .
It was written that the primary on-call received 5 \ % of what they earned in a quarter additional per week on-call and secondary received 2.5 \ % .
Once you 've done that math , that comes out to be 65 \ % weekly additional for primary and 32 \ % additional per-week secondary .
For critical issues ( as most were once level 1 passed them up ) the primary * had * to respond to the page within15 minutes and communicate with and able to be on-line with the customers machine with in 30 minutes and continue working the issue until it was worked-around , fixed or passed off to the day shift .
Cell phones were in bags the size of car batteries and only slightly lighter , your home * terminal * connected via 28,800bps modem ( maybe a bit more if you shelled out thousand-plus for one with compression .
) When customers called our support figured out what the problem was , even if it was n't in the gear we sold .
If you were secondary on-call you had 30 minutes to get to the customer , which if you were out meant asking for that meal to go or just paying and leaving.Today they give you a cell phone , a lap top , DSL or cable modem to facilitate your spending far more time doing their shit and sort of expect you to be at their beck and call .
Since then in start-ups out here , I ca n't say I know too many techies who worked 40 hour weeks .
Those I 've worked for provided comp.time for severe impositions due to after-hours incidents , usually immediate ( as in next morning or day off .
) When on-call loads and rotations became more formal it was trading an evening of on-call with a day off.You can ask for whatever you want , however keep in mind with unemployment pushing double digits odds are there is someone out there whom is hungrier for the work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the early 90's just after  the condo market bubble burst in the North East, I was working for one of those Massachusetts 'Miracle' Computer companies which sold hardware by the pound with significant margins on support.
This company was second in the market to the segment leader Tandem.
When you're selling gear that is supposed to keep working 365x24 you have support to match - round-the-clock  level 1 who would get the box running again and then there was a cadre of level 2 primary and secondary on-call to deal with various specialties.
It was written that the primary on-call received 5\% of what they earned in a quarter additional per week on-call and secondary received 2.5\%.
Once you've done that math, that comes out to be 65\% weekly additional for primary and 32\% additional per-week secondary.
For critical issues (as most were once level 1 passed them up) the primary *had* to respond to the page within15 minutes and communicate with and able to be on-line with the customers machine with in 30 minutes and continue working the issue until it was worked-around, fixed or passed off to the day shift.
Cell phones were in bags the size of car batteries and only slightly lighter, your home *terminal* connected via 28,800bps modem (maybe a bit more if you shelled out thousand-plus for one with compression.
)  When customers called our support figured out what the problem was, even if it wasn't in the gear we sold.
If you were secondary on-call you had 30 minutes to get to the customer, which if you were out meant asking for that meal to go or just paying and leaving.Today they give you a cell phone, a lap top, DSL or cable modem to facilitate your spending far more time doing their shit and sort of expect you to be at their beck and call.
Since then in start-ups out here, I can't say I know too many techies who worked 40 hour weeks.
Those I've worked for provided comp.time for severe impositions due to after-hours incidents, usually immediate (as in next morning or day off.
) When on-call loads and rotations became more formal it was trading an evening of on-call with a day off.You can ask for whatever you want,  however keep in mind with unemployment pushing double digits odds are there is someone out there whom is hungrier for the work.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273402</id>
	<title>The point is that your time is not your own</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259614200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>The problem is that, when you're "on call", your time is not your own.  You're expected to be ready and able to drop everything at a moments notice and go to work, immediately.  Furthermore, you can be limited as to where you can go, particularly in areas with poor cell phone coverage.  Most employers I've worked with have given a day of "comp" time in exchange for a week on-call, although they've sometimes been a bit sketchy on actually doing this and on how you should report it.  To me, it should be official, recognized, and fully compensated--but often it just happens at manager's discretion.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is that , when you 're " on call " , your time is not your own .
You 're expected to be ready and able to drop everything at a moments notice and go to work , immediately .
Furthermore , you can be limited as to where you can go , particularly in areas with poor cell phone coverage .
Most employers I 've worked with have given a day of " comp " time in exchange for a week on-call , although they 've sometimes been a bit sketchy on actually doing this and on how you should report it .
To me , it should be official , recognized , and fully compensated--but often it just happens at manager 's discretion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is that, when you're "on call", your time is not your own.
You're expected to be ready and able to drop everything at a moments notice and go to work, immediately.
Furthermore, you can be limited as to where you can go, particularly in areas with poor cell phone coverage.
Most employers I've worked with have given a day of "comp" time in exchange for a week on-call, although they've sometimes been a bit sketchy on actually doing this and on how you should report it.
To me, it should be official, recognized, and fully compensated--but often it just happens at manager's discretion.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274356</id>
	<title>It depends on the amount of pay...</title>
	<author>Targon</author>
	<datestamp>1259574180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Many jobs treat the higher end technical positions as being salaried.  This means there is no overtime, in the way a manager is just expected to do the job, even if it means working late, and still getting no extra money for it.    The trade-off is that you don't have people watching over you and micro-managing you since you are in charge of your area of responsibility.    If you are in a "grunt" style position where you are under a manager who stays on top of you, you need to make it clear that:</p><p>A) you are responsible for your job getting done, meaning you should be left alone to get the job done, but that it means if things break in the middle of the night, you ARE responsible to get them fixed.</p><p>or</p><p>B) You are "just an employee", meaning you deserve overtime, and there SHOULD be some sort of compensation for being on-call, either rolled into your normal pay, or overtime pay.</p><p>In system administration positions, as a responsible point of contact, the admins normally get paid with on-call time being a part of the pay.   It is expected, and falls under A.   Note that in that type of position, there are others to share the on-call duty with, so you might only be on call for one week out of four for example, and you only get woken up when the on-call person doesn't respond.   Again, it is about being responsible and taking charge, or about just being an employee without any sense of responsibility for the service you help provide.</p><p>So, where do you find yourself?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Many jobs treat the higher end technical positions as being salaried .
This means there is no overtime , in the way a manager is just expected to do the job , even if it means working late , and still getting no extra money for it .
The trade-off is that you do n't have people watching over you and micro-managing you since you are in charge of your area of responsibility .
If you are in a " grunt " style position where you are under a manager who stays on top of you , you need to make it clear that : A ) you are responsible for your job getting done , meaning you should be left alone to get the job done , but that it means if things break in the middle of the night , you ARE responsible to get them fixed.orB ) You are " just an employee " , meaning you deserve overtime , and there SHOULD be some sort of compensation for being on-call , either rolled into your normal pay , or overtime pay.In system administration positions , as a responsible point of contact , the admins normally get paid with on-call time being a part of the pay .
It is expected , and falls under A. Note that in that type of position , there are others to share the on-call duty with , so you might only be on call for one week out of four for example , and you only get woken up when the on-call person does n't respond .
Again , it is about being responsible and taking charge , or about just being an employee without any sense of responsibility for the service you help provide.So , where do you find yourself ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many jobs treat the higher end technical positions as being salaried.
This means there is no overtime, in the way a manager is just expected to do the job, even if it means working late, and still getting no extra money for it.
The trade-off is that you don't have people watching over you and micro-managing you since you are in charge of your area of responsibility.
If you are in a "grunt" style position where you are under a manager who stays on top of you, you need to make it clear that:A) you are responsible for your job getting done, meaning you should be left alone to get the job done, but that it means if things break in the middle of the night, you ARE responsible to get them fixed.orB) You are "just an employee", meaning you deserve overtime, and there SHOULD be some sort of compensation for being on-call, either rolled into your normal pay, or overtime pay.In system administration positions, as a responsible point of contact, the admins normally get paid with on-call time being a part of the pay.
It is expected, and falls under A.   Note that in that type of position, there are others to share the on-call duty with, so you might only be on call for one week out of four for example, and you only get woken up when the on-call person doesn't respond.
Again, it is about being responsible and taking charge, or about just being an employee without any sense of responsibility for the service you help provide.So, where do you find yourself?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273302</id>
	<title>Nurses Do</title>
	<author>Golddess</author>
	<datestamp>1259613840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I can speak from second-hand experience (my mom is a nurse) that nurses get paid when they are "on call", even if they are never called in.  This was back in the 90's though.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I can speak from second-hand experience ( my mom is a nurse ) that nurses get paid when they are " on call " , even if they are never called in .
This was back in the 90 's though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can speak from second-hand experience (my mom is a nurse) that nurses get paid when they are "on call", even if they are never called in.
This was back in the 90's though.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30277094</id>
	<title>4 hrs a a week + time and half for calls.</title>
	<author>los furtive</author>
	<datestamp>1259584800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Worked as a software dev for a large banking firm in Canada.  We were paid four hours a week just to hold the pager, and then time and a half for any calls we received, with 30 min automatically charged as soon as the pager rang.   We couldn't travel out of the city when we had the pager, and had to limit drinking to meals.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Worked as a software dev for a large banking firm in Canada .
We were paid four hours a week just to hold the pager , and then time and a half for any calls we received , with 30 min automatically charged as soon as the pager rang .
We could n't travel out of the city when we had the pager , and had to limit drinking to meals .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Worked as a software dev for a large banking firm in Canada.
We were paid four hours a week just to hold the pager, and then time and a half for any calls we received, with 30 min automatically charged as soon as the pager rang.
We couldn't travel out of the city when we had the pager, and had to limit drinking to meals.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274792</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259575920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>i disagree, what about that medical database system without which you don't know if johnny is alergic to penacilin?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>i disagree , what about that medical database system without which you do n't know if johnny is alergic to penacilin ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i disagree, what about that medical database system without which you don't know if johnny is alergic to penacilin?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274520</id>
	<title>Not Me</title>
	<author>b4upoo</author>
	<datestamp>1259574840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>        I always had zero tolerance for non paid standby requests unless an hourly fee was agreed upon. I flat out told employers that I spent time offshore fishing and that getting me on the phone would be impossible.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I always had zero tolerance for non paid standby requests unless an hourly fee was agreed upon .
I flat out told employers that I spent time offshore fishing and that getting me on the phone would be impossible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>        I always had zero tolerance for non paid standby requests unless an hourly fee was agreed upon.
I flat out told employers that I spent time offshore fishing and that getting me on the phone would be impossible.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30280556</id>
	<title>Screw on-call for Unix admin jobs... Not worth it.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259660100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been getting worked like a dog in a Unix Systems Engineer/Support role at a large company in 1.5 years.  We have only three guys in the rotation to support over a 1000 machines which means pager duty for 7 days every third week.  One person in the group failed to get a security clearance, so me and the other 'cleared' guy got screwed into now carrying two pagers every other week with no mention of increase in pay.  Not only would I have to be on-call every other week, but I'd also have to be within short driving distance the data center in the event that some kind of hardware failure occurred that couldn't be handled remotely.</p><p>The systems and the monitoring put in place was so bad that the pager would be alerting every few hours or often every 30 minutes.  Blips in the network (due to a switch config change) would cause the pager to get 10 false alerts and wake up my girlfriend and I in the early hours of the morning.  I have endless memories of waking up with the pager(s) stuck to my chest because the damn thing was alerting so often that I'd have to check the alert page to see if it was real or fake while still in a sleep state.  It's been about a year and a half of this shit and I'm basically burnt out from operations.  Sure I'm making good money, but I tell you, unless there is a good operations procedure in place and there is proper tiered support, you WILL NOT HAVE A LIFE.  You won't be able to enjoy your life at all.  Insane operations positions simply are just not worth it and will consume the majority of your life.  [ Not to mention, the fucking Directors and VPs of the company aren't working like dogs... they are busy posting pictures of their kids to facebook and golfing... ].</p><p>It's complete crap that my employer stuck me with an extra week of 'implicit' and expected pager duty... and with no mention of pay or anything (They didn't even ask me if I was OKAY being on call EVERY OTHER FUCKING WEEK).  The company simply just assumed that I was going to just 'eat' the additional week of on-call duty and that I would just happily fall in line like another dumb lemming and do it.   I did actually do it for awhile like dumb lemming, but I've wised up.....</p><p>The funny thing is that I was offered a development position a few months ago within the same company and a 12\% increase in pay and NO pager duty.  I happily accepted and got rid of the pager... I will never EVER EVER EVER again work in operations and I will NEVER EVER EVER work in a job that requires me to carry a pager.  I'll gladly go and rack up more student loan debt in order to get myself qualified enough to get a job that isn't on-call.</p><p>I'll stick to my 60k/year development job and work my standard 40 hours a week and get to enjoy my life a bit.</p><p>Killing yourself at work just isn't worth it - Respect yourself and your employer will respect you ( if they don't, quit and get another job ).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been getting worked like a dog in a Unix Systems Engineer/Support role at a large company in 1.5 years .
We have only three guys in the rotation to support over a 1000 machines which means pager duty for 7 days every third week .
One person in the group failed to get a security clearance , so me and the other 'cleared ' guy got screwed into now carrying two pagers every other week with no mention of increase in pay .
Not only would I have to be on-call every other week , but I 'd also have to be within short driving distance the data center in the event that some kind of hardware failure occurred that could n't be handled remotely.The systems and the monitoring put in place was so bad that the pager would be alerting every few hours or often every 30 minutes .
Blips in the network ( due to a switch config change ) would cause the pager to get 10 false alerts and wake up my girlfriend and I in the early hours of the morning .
I have endless memories of waking up with the pager ( s ) stuck to my chest because the damn thing was alerting so often that I 'd have to check the alert page to see if it was real or fake while still in a sleep state .
It 's been about a year and a half of this shit and I 'm basically burnt out from operations .
Sure I 'm making good money , but I tell you , unless there is a good operations procedure in place and there is proper tiered support , you WILL NOT HAVE A LIFE .
You wo n't be able to enjoy your life at all .
Insane operations positions simply are just not worth it and will consume the majority of your life .
[ Not to mention , the fucking Directors and VPs of the company are n't working like dogs... they are busy posting pictures of their kids to facebook and golfing... ] .It 's complete crap that my employer stuck me with an extra week of 'implicit ' and expected pager duty... and with no mention of pay or anything ( They did n't even ask me if I was OKAY being on call EVERY OTHER FUCKING WEEK ) .
The company simply just assumed that I was going to just 'eat ' the additional week of on-call duty and that I would just happily fall in line like another dumb lemming and do it .
I did actually do it for awhile like dumb lemming , but I 've wised up.....The funny thing is that I was offered a development position a few months ago within the same company and a 12 \ % increase in pay and NO pager duty .
I happily accepted and got rid of the pager... I will never EVER EVER EVER again work in operations and I will NEVER EVER EVER work in a job that requires me to carry a pager .
I 'll gladly go and rack up more student loan debt in order to get myself qualified enough to get a job that is n't on-call.I 'll stick to my 60k/year development job and work my standard 40 hours a week and get to enjoy my life a bit.Killing yourself at work just is n't worth it - Respect yourself and your employer will respect you ( if they do n't , quit and get another job ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been getting worked like a dog in a Unix Systems Engineer/Support role at a large company in 1.5 years.
We have only three guys in the rotation to support over a 1000 machines which means pager duty for 7 days every third week.
One person in the group failed to get a security clearance, so me and the other 'cleared' guy got screwed into now carrying two pagers every other week with no mention of increase in pay.
Not only would I have to be on-call every other week, but I'd also have to be within short driving distance the data center in the event that some kind of hardware failure occurred that couldn't be handled remotely.The systems and the monitoring put in place was so bad that the pager would be alerting every few hours or often every 30 minutes.
Blips in the network (due to a switch config change) would cause the pager to get 10 false alerts and wake up my girlfriend and I in the early hours of the morning.
I have endless memories of waking up with the pager(s) stuck to my chest because the damn thing was alerting so often that I'd have to check the alert page to see if it was real or fake while still in a sleep state.
It's been about a year and a half of this shit and I'm basically burnt out from operations.
Sure I'm making good money, but I tell you, unless there is a good operations procedure in place and there is proper tiered support, you WILL NOT HAVE A LIFE.
You won't be able to enjoy your life at all.
Insane operations positions simply are just not worth it and will consume the majority of your life.
[ Not to mention, the fucking Directors and VPs of the company aren't working like dogs... they are busy posting pictures of their kids to facebook and golfing... ].It's complete crap that my employer stuck me with an extra week of 'implicit' and expected pager duty... and with no mention of pay or anything (They didn't even ask me if I was OKAY being on call EVERY OTHER FUCKING WEEK).
The company simply just assumed that I was going to just 'eat' the additional week of on-call duty and that I would just happily fall in line like another dumb lemming and do it.
I did actually do it for awhile like dumb lemming, but I've wised up.....The funny thing is that I was offered a development position a few months ago within the same company and a 12\% increase in pay and NO pager duty.
I happily accepted and got rid of the pager... I will never EVER EVER EVER again work in operations and I will NEVER EVER EVER work in a job that requires me to carry a pager.
I'll gladly go and rack up more student loan debt in order to get myself qualified enough to get a job that isn't on-call.I'll stick to my 60k/year development job and work my standard 40 hours a week and get to enjoy my life a bit.Killing yourself at work just isn't worth it - Respect yourself and your employer will respect you ( if they don't, quit and get another job ).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278202</id>
	<title>Re:Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>Crudely\_Indecent</author>
	<datestamp>1259592060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm currently THE guy doing it every single week.  I'm also currently THE guy interviewing with other companies.  THIS guy was also thoughtful enough to tell his current employer how unhappy he is and that he's leaving.  Unfortunately, the current employer doesn't believe that I will leave, so he hasn't looked for a replacement.</p><p>I have a feeling that after I leave, something bad is going to happen and I'll be called to fix it.  When that happens, I'll be adding a zero to the end of my current hourly wage.  If the current employer isn't happy about that, then his stuff can stay down.</p><p>If he'd paid me for the hours to begin with, I wouldn't be leaving.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm currently THE guy doing it every single week .
I 'm also currently THE guy interviewing with other companies .
THIS guy was also thoughtful enough to tell his current employer how unhappy he is and that he 's leaving .
Unfortunately , the current employer does n't believe that I will leave , so he has n't looked for a replacement.I have a feeling that after I leave , something bad is going to happen and I 'll be called to fix it .
When that happens , I 'll be adding a zero to the end of my current hourly wage .
If the current employer is n't happy about that , then his stuff can stay down.If he 'd paid me for the hours to begin with , I would n't be leaving .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm currently THE guy doing it every single week.
I'm also currently THE guy interviewing with other companies.
THIS guy was also thoughtful enough to tell his current employer how unhappy he is and that he's leaving.
Unfortunately, the current employer doesn't believe that I will leave, so he hasn't looked for a replacement.I have a feeling that after I leave, something bad is going to happen and I'll be called to fix it.
When that happens, I'll be adding a zero to the end of my current hourly wage.
If the current employer isn't happy about that, then his stuff can stay down.If he'd paid me for the hours to begin with, I wouldn't be leaving.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275782</id>
	<title>Re:hospital model...</title>
	<author>ShakaUVM</author>
	<datestamp>1259579820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;&gt;The hospitals I worked in, the staff that were on call (CAT scan techs, nuke med techs, OR nurses, recovery room nurses, dialysis folks) were paid $1 or $2 per hour just for carrying the beeper.</p><p>It's also important to point out that at many hospitals (my wife works for the biggest hospital in the area) you don't see 24-hour on-call shifts. Usually they have a fixed period of time that they are on call for, so they don't need to worry about being woken up at 3AM unless something is seriously wrong with one of their existing patients.</p><p>I wouldn't be able to stand being a 24-hour on-call IT guy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; &gt; The hospitals I worked in , the staff that were on call ( CAT scan techs , nuke med techs , OR nurses , recovery room nurses , dialysis folks ) were paid $ 1 or $ 2 per hour just for carrying the beeper.It 's also important to point out that at many hospitals ( my wife works for the biggest hospital in the area ) you do n't see 24-hour on-call shifts .
Usually they have a fixed period of time that they are on call for , so they do n't need to worry about being woken up at 3AM unless something is seriously wrong with one of their existing patients.I would n't be able to stand being a 24-hour on-call IT guy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;&gt;The hospitals I worked in, the staff that were on call (CAT scan techs, nuke med techs, OR nurses, recovery room nurses, dialysis folks) were paid $1 or $2 per hour just for carrying the beeper.It's also important to point out that at many hospitals (my wife works for the biggest hospital in the area) you don't see 24-hour on-call shifts.
Usually they have a fixed period of time that they are on call for, so they don't need to worry about being woken up at 3AM unless something is seriously wrong with one of their existing patients.I wouldn't be able to stand being a 24-hour on-call IT guy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273994</id>
	<title>Re:Of course</title>
	<author>iamacat</author>
	<datestamp>1259572860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just like there is a mandatory 8 week workday or paid overtime, there should be mandatory limits and penalties to regulate on-call time. Any single person shouldn't be on call for the whole week, every weekend of each month, every major holiday and so on. Even firefighters and soldiers will eventually be worn out by stress and lack of committed family time and make harmful decisions when the actual emergency happens.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just like there is a mandatory 8 week workday or paid overtime , there should be mandatory limits and penalties to regulate on-call time .
Any single person should n't be on call for the whole week , every weekend of each month , every major holiday and so on .
Even firefighters and soldiers will eventually be worn out by stress and lack of committed family time and make harmful decisions when the actual emergency happens .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just like there is a mandatory 8 week workday or paid overtime, there should be mandatory limits and penalties to regulate on-call time.
Any single person shouldn't be on call for the whole week, every weekend of each month, every major holiday and so on.
Even firefighters and soldiers will eventually be worn out by stress and lack of committed family time and make harmful decisions when the actual emergency happens.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273264</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273864</id>
	<title>Numeric Pager or BB?  Training needed?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259572380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>100\% numeric pager or Blackberry with unlimited data plan and cell service?  If I was asked to carry a numeric pager, and work all hours and not get paid I would be out the door.  If it was a Blackberry with full data plan and unlimited cell useage, maybe that would be enough for me.  I currently get paid $1.50/hr for carrying and nothing for the time I spend if I get paged.  I accepted this.  I used to get paid $1.50/hr and OT for what I worked but got paged 2000\% more.  So the company giving me a phone with data at no cost to me plus $1.50/hr regardless if I get paged or not is worth it.  If I get paged a lot, I train that group how to fix things so they don't have to page me.  If they paid me for OT for responding, I probably wouldn't train people how to fix things as I would want the $$$.  So this may be an indication that users require some additional information so the pages don't happen, or at least happen less frequently.</p><p>There are so many variables it is really just up to what you want to put up with.  If you don't like the situation, find a different one.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>100 \ % numeric pager or Blackberry with unlimited data plan and cell service ?
If I was asked to carry a numeric pager , and work all hours and not get paid I would be out the door .
If it was a Blackberry with full data plan and unlimited cell useage , maybe that would be enough for me .
I currently get paid $ 1.50/hr for carrying and nothing for the time I spend if I get paged .
I accepted this .
I used to get paid $ 1.50/hr and OT for what I worked but got paged 2000 \ % more .
So the company giving me a phone with data at no cost to me plus $ 1.50/hr regardless if I get paged or not is worth it .
If I get paged a lot , I train that group how to fix things so they do n't have to page me .
If they paid me for OT for responding , I probably would n't train people how to fix things as I would want the $ $ $ .
So this may be an indication that users require some additional information so the pages do n't happen , or at least happen less frequently.There are so many variables it is really just up to what you want to put up with .
If you do n't like the situation , find a different one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>100\% numeric pager or Blackberry with unlimited data plan and cell service?
If I was asked to carry a numeric pager, and work all hours and not get paid I would be out the door.
If it was a Blackberry with full data plan and unlimited cell useage, maybe that would be enough for me.
I currently get paid $1.50/hr for carrying and nothing for the time I spend if I get paged.
I accepted this.
I used to get paid $1.50/hr and OT for what I worked but got paged 2000\% more.
So the company giving me a phone with data at no cost to me plus $1.50/hr regardless if I get paged or not is worth it.
If I get paged a lot, I train that group how to fix things so they don't have to page me.
If they paid me for OT for responding, I probably wouldn't train people how to fix things as I would want the $$$.
So this may be an indication that users require some additional information so the pages don't happen, or at least happen less frequently.There are so many variables it is really just up to what you want to put up with.
If you don't like the situation, find a different one.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274250</id>
	<title>It's all in the contract</title>
	<author>thorkyl</author>
	<datestamp>1259573820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have only been a "full time" employee one time.</p><p>That deal was simple.</p><p>I drew a salary.<br>The days (24 hour period) I was on call I got<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.25 hours of comp time for every hour I was on call<br>If I worked during that time then I got 1.25 hours of comp time per hour worked</p><p>The "nights" (after hours) I got<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.5 hours comp time and 1.5 hours comp for time worked</p><p>There where 3 of us and we rotated by the week.<br>After 18 month on the "job" I had over 250 hours comp time added up when I left.</p><p>That is the rate I negotiated with the employer.<br>The one I am on now is better.<br>When I am called I bill 2 to 1 comp time with<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.1 hour per hour for waiting on the call.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have only been a " full time " employee one time.That deal was simple.I drew a salary.The days ( 24 hour period ) I was on call I got .25 hours of comp time for every hour I was on callIf I worked during that time then I got 1.25 hours of comp time per hour workedThe " nights " ( after hours ) I got .5 hours comp time and 1.5 hours comp for time workedThere where 3 of us and we rotated by the week.After 18 month on the " job " I had over 250 hours comp time added up when I left.That is the rate I negotiated with the employer.The one I am on now is better.When I am called I bill 2 to 1 comp time with .1 hour per hour for waiting on the call .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have only been a "full time" employee one time.That deal was simple.I drew a salary.The days (24 hour period) I was on call I got .25 hours of comp time for every hour I was on callIf I worked during that time then I got 1.25 hours of comp time per hour workedThe "nights" (after hours) I got .5 hours comp time and 1.5 hours comp for time workedThere where 3 of us and we rotated by the week.After 18 month on the "job" I had over 250 hours comp time added up when I left.That is the rate I negotiated with the employer.The one I am on now is better.When I am called I bill 2 to 1 comp time with .1 hour per hour for waiting on the call.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273444</id>
	<title>Being on call, is being at work.</title>
	<author>rotide</author>
	<datestamp>1259614260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If I'm at work I can't drink, can't go out of state, can't do anything outside of what my boss tells me I can do (basically).</p><p>If I'm no longer on the clock, I can do whatever I want (basically).</p><p>If I'm asked to be on call, I have to mold my "not on the clock" time to whatever my boss requires.  I can't go out of state.  I can't go to an amusement park with my kids.  I can't go to a movie.  Well, not unless I don't mind up and leaving to go home and sign on the laptop.</p><p>If your boss expects you to do x or y while you're not on the clock, you \_are\_ on the clock and deserve pay for it.  The only time I allow my boss to dictate what I can and can't do is when he's paying me to allow him to boss me around.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If I 'm at work I ca n't drink , ca n't go out of state , ca n't do anything outside of what my boss tells me I can do ( basically ) .If I 'm no longer on the clock , I can do whatever I want ( basically ) .If I 'm asked to be on call , I have to mold my " not on the clock " time to whatever my boss requires .
I ca n't go out of state .
I ca n't go to an amusement park with my kids .
I ca n't go to a movie .
Well , not unless I do n't mind up and leaving to go home and sign on the laptop.If your boss expects you to do x or y while you 're not on the clock , you \ _are \ _ on the clock and deserve pay for it .
The only time I allow my boss to dictate what I can and ca n't do is when he 's paying me to allow him to boss me around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I'm at work I can't drink, can't go out of state, can't do anything outside of what my boss tells me I can do (basically).If I'm no longer on the clock, I can do whatever I want (basically).If I'm asked to be on call, I have to mold my "not on the clock" time to whatever my boss requires.
I can't go out of state.
I can't go to an amusement park with my kids.
I can't go to a movie.
Well, not unless I don't mind up and leaving to go home and sign on the laptop.If your boss expects you to do x or y while you're not on the clock, you \_are\_ on the clock and deserve pay for it.
The only time I allow my boss to dictate what I can and can't do is when he's paying me to allow him to boss me around.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274120</id>
	<title>Re:There seems to be some confusion here...</title>
	<author>fermion</author>
	<datestamp>1259573280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Only if no one else is willing to do it for the same rate, or if they are willing to give up the service.
<p>
I have seen this quite a bit.  Usually there is no way for the incumbent to make such drastic changes in the contract.  The employer will generally take the risk of allowing the incumbent to leave rather than establishing a possibly negative precedent.
</p><p>
Many will state the obvious that they will likely have to hire two people to replace this tech.  That may be true, and may well increase costs, but not alway.  I have seen, and have been in the situation once or twice, where two people, or a much more expensive person, had to be hired to replace a single person.  From the outside it looks like costs are increased, but often the new hires are completing other tasks for providing additional competencies.
</p><p>
I suppose it wold be ok to ask for a per-incident rate of pay during certain time frames.  I would also be on the lookout for other work if this is such a huge burden.  Perhaps some people reading the post is desperate enough to do the job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Only if no one else is willing to do it for the same rate , or if they are willing to give up the service .
I have seen this quite a bit .
Usually there is no way for the incumbent to make such drastic changes in the contract .
The employer will generally take the risk of allowing the incumbent to leave rather than establishing a possibly negative precedent .
Many will state the obvious that they will likely have to hire two people to replace this tech .
That may be true , and may well increase costs , but not alway .
I have seen , and have been in the situation once or twice , where two people , or a much more expensive person , had to be hired to replace a single person .
From the outside it looks like costs are increased , but often the new hires are completing other tasks for providing additional competencies .
I suppose it wold be ok to ask for a per-incident rate of pay during certain time frames .
I would also be on the lookout for other work if this is such a huge burden .
Perhaps some people reading the post is desperate enough to do the job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Only if no one else is willing to do it for the same rate, or if they are willing to give up the service.
I have seen this quite a bit.
Usually there is no way for the incumbent to make such drastic changes in the contract.
The employer will generally take the risk of allowing the incumbent to leave rather than establishing a possibly negative precedent.
Many will state the obvious that they will likely have to hire two people to replace this tech.
That may be true, and may well increase costs, but not alway.
I have seen, and have been in the situation once or twice, where two people, or a much more expensive person, had to be hired to replace a single person.
From the outside it looks like costs are increased, but often the new hires are completing other tasks for providing additional competencies.
I suppose it wold be ok to ask for a per-incident rate of pay during certain time frames.
I would also be on the lookout for other work if this is such a huge burden.
Perhaps some people reading the post is desperate enough to do the job.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273262</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273952</id>
	<title>everyone must get paid</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259572800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>on call guy needs to negotiate what it's worth to him or move on.</p><p>The real solution for "on-call" is to charge (a ton) for off hours work, so everyone gets paid. It's also a great filter and helps the client decide about what is really important to them.</p><p>An answering service works well, too. If the client has to go through someone else to reach the tech, there is another filter to help cover un-needed calls, and the opportunity to have an hour to look into the issue &amp; call back.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>on call guy needs to negotiate what it 's worth to him or move on.The real solution for " on-call " is to charge ( a ton ) for off hours work , so everyone gets paid .
It 's also a great filter and helps the client decide about what is really important to them.An answering service works well , too .
If the client has to go through someone else to reach the tech , there is another filter to help cover un-needed calls , and the opportunity to have an hour to look into the issue &amp; call back .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>on call guy needs to negotiate what it's worth to him or move on.The real solution for "on-call" is to charge (a ton) for off hours work, so everyone gets paid.
It's also a great filter and helps the client decide about what is really important to them.An answering service works well, too.
If the client has to go through someone else to reach the tech, there is another filter to help cover un-needed calls, and the opportunity to have an hour to look into the issue &amp; call back.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274900</id>
	<title>Cut and Dry here</title>
	<author>Sandbags</author>
	<datestamp>1259576460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've worked On-Call shifts with a number of companies before.</p><p>Here's the deal:<br>The FLSA [Fair Labor Standards Act] regulations provide that "[a]n employee who is required to remain on call on the employer's premises or so close thereto that he cannot use the time effectively for his own purposes" is considered to be "working." 29 C.F.R. [section] 785.17</p><p>It is against the law for a on-call person to be paid salary.  They are non-exempt employees by definition.  Any time spent fulfilling required job duties outside of the office must be compensated.  Overtime pay scales may or may not apply by job description.</p><p>Since a home system, paid for at least in part by an employer, including compensated phone/internet bills and job requirements to maintain a home computer for work purposes (or a provided corporate computer for use at home, including rotated on-call hardware shared by several people) is an extension of the office and the duties of the job, that home system is essentially ruled by the courts to BE the office when on-call.  Anytime an employer requires an on-call person to remain in their home, or in proximity to a computer system and to carry and answer a phone routed by the company at specific hours, then that person, under the FLSA, is in fact WORKING.  The rate they're paid for that time spent "waiting" for a call may be billed at varying rates, but generally not less than 50\% of regular pay, and any time actually on a call would be bileld at the standard rate for that employee (or overtime rate if it applies).  Many companies pay a base "convenience" wage to people who are on call but take no calls during that time.</p><p>The Supreme Court, in previous rulings, has also concurred.  If you are bound to a location, unable to leave and persue personal activities (say, go to a movie, go out to dinner across town, play video games online, go shopping at something other than a local grocery store, etc), or are mandated to be at a computer to handle calls within X minutes of a notice of an alert (the "you can do whatever you want, but you only have 30 minutes to answer a page" idea), then you are essentially work bound, and not free to use your time at your own lesiure.  For example, if while on-call, you could go spend a weekend at your parents, so long as you answer calls per company policy, and meet SLAs for handling issues, they you are only required to be paid while actually working, but if that company required you to stay "within 15 minutes of a connected computer at all times while on-call" then you are work bound, and must be compensated at at least a base acceptible rate during that time, including time-and-a-half as mandated for hours over 40.</p><p>For example, at one of my employers, all i was required to do was return a paged call within 30 minutes.  once the call was returned, it took about 5 minutes to determine what the issue was, but we had a 4 hour response SLA, so you could tell a customer, "I'm on call, and not at home, I'll call you back in 2 hours..." and that was acceptible.  We were only paid for time actually logged on calls (rounded to the nearest hour).  At another job, The 1 week a month you were on call, you were expected to keep a quiet household, be at home at all times aside from quick errands, and if you got a call, it had to be answered immediately, and you had to be logged in within 20 minutes of the call.  We were paid 50\% time for all hours "on call" except meals and sleeping and 100\% time on calls (and time and a half as it applied only to time on calls).</p><p>Further, in many states (including this one), even if only billable when actually on a call, it is illegal to be paid for less than 3 hours in any 24 hour period, regardless of the number of hours worked.  It's also illegal to be compensated for less than 1 hour for any block of time spent working that is more than 1 hour apart from another billable hour.  For example:  on Sunday, you get a call at 10AM that lasts 30 minutes.  You get another call at 3PM that lasts only 15 minutes.  They have to pay yo</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've worked On-Call shifts with a number of companies before.Here 's the deal : The FLSA [ Fair Labor Standards Act ] regulations provide that " [ a ] n employee who is required to remain on call on the employer 's premises or so close thereto that he can not use the time effectively for his own purposes " is considered to be " working .
" 29 C.F.R .
[ section ] 785.17It is against the law for a on-call person to be paid salary .
They are non-exempt employees by definition .
Any time spent fulfilling required job duties outside of the office must be compensated .
Overtime pay scales may or may not apply by job description.Since a home system , paid for at least in part by an employer , including compensated phone/internet bills and job requirements to maintain a home computer for work purposes ( or a provided corporate computer for use at home , including rotated on-call hardware shared by several people ) is an extension of the office and the duties of the job , that home system is essentially ruled by the courts to BE the office when on-call .
Anytime an employer requires an on-call person to remain in their home , or in proximity to a computer system and to carry and answer a phone routed by the company at specific hours , then that person , under the FLSA , is in fact WORKING .
The rate they 're paid for that time spent " waiting " for a call may be billed at varying rates , but generally not less than 50 \ % of regular pay , and any time actually on a call would be bileld at the standard rate for that employee ( or overtime rate if it applies ) .
Many companies pay a base " convenience " wage to people who are on call but take no calls during that time.The Supreme Court , in previous rulings , has also concurred .
If you are bound to a location , unable to leave and persue personal activities ( say , go to a movie , go out to dinner across town , play video games online , go shopping at something other than a local grocery store , etc ) , or are mandated to be at a computer to handle calls within X minutes of a notice of an alert ( the " you can do whatever you want , but you only have 30 minutes to answer a page " idea ) , then you are essentially work bound , and not free to use your time at your own lesiure .
For example , if while on-call , you could go spend a weekend at your parents , so long as you answer calls per company policy , and meet SLAs for handling issues , they you are only required to be paid while actually working , but if that company required you to stay " within 15 minutes of a connected computer at all times while on-call " then you are work bound , and must be compensated at at least a base acceptible rate during that time , including time-and-a-half as mandated for hours over 40.For example , at one of my employers , all i was required to do was return a paged call within 30 minutes .
once the call was returned , it took about 5 minutes to determine what the issue was , but we had a 4 hour response SLA , so you could tell a customer , " I 'm on call , and not at home , I 'll call you back in 2 hours... " and that was acceptible .
We were only paid for time actually logged on calls ( rounded to the nearest hour ) .
At another job , The 1 week a month you were on call , you were expected to keep a quiet household , be at home at all times aside from quick errands , and if you got a call , it had to be answered immediately , and you had to be logged in within 20 minutes of the call .
We were paid 50 \ % time for all hours " on call " except meals and sleeping and 100 \ % time on calls ( and time and a half as it applied only to time on calls ) .Further , in many states ( including this one ) , even if only billable when actually on a call , it is illegal to be paid for less than 3 hours in any 24 hour period , regardless of the number of hours worked .
It 's also illegal to be compensated for less than 1 hour for any block of time spent working that is more than 1 hour apart from another billable hour .
For example : on Sunday , you get a call at 10AM that lasts 30 minutes .
You get another call at 3PM that lasts only 15 minutes .
They have to pay yo</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've worked On-Call shifts with a number of companies before.Here's the deal:The FLSA [Fair Labor Standards Act] regulations provide that "[a]n employee who is required to remain on call on the employer's premises or so close thereto that he cannot use the time effectively for his own purposes" is considered to be "working.
" 29 C.F.R.
[section] 785.17It is against the law for a on-call person to be paid salary.
They are non-exempt employees by definition.
Any time spent fulfilling required job duties outside of the office must be compensated.
Overtime pay scales may or may not apply by job description.Since a home system, paid for at least in part by an employer, including compensated phone/internet bills and job requirements to maintain a home computer for work purposes (or a provided corporate computer for use at home, including rotated on-call hardware shared by several people) is an extension of the office and the duties of the job, that home system is essentially ruled by the courts to BE the office when on-call.
Anytime an employer requires an on-call person to remain in their home, or in proximity to a computer system and to carry and answer a phone routed by the company at specific hours, then that person, under the FLSA, is in fact WORKING.
The rate they're paid for that time spent "waiting" for a call may be billed at varying rates, but generally not less than 50\% of regular pay, and any time actually on a call would be bileld at the standard rate for that employee (or overtime rate if it applies).
Many companies pay a base "convenience" wage to people who are on call but take no calls during that time.The Supreme Court, in previous rulings, has also concurred.
If you are bound to a location, unable to leave and persue personal activities (say, go to a movie, go out to dinner across town, play video games online, go shopping at something other than a local grocery store, etc), or are mandated to be at a computer to handle calls within X minutes of a notice of an alert (the "you can do whatever you want, but you only have 30 minutes to answer a page" idea), then you are essentially work bound, and not free to use your time at your own lesiure.
For example, if while on-call, you could go spend a weekend at your parents, so long as you answer calls per company policy, and meet SLAs for handling issues, they you are only required to be paid while actually working, but if that company required you to stay "within 15 minutes of a connected computer at all times while on-call" then you are work bound, and must be compensated at at least a base acceptible rate during that time, including time-and-a-half as mandated for hours over 40.For example, at one of my employers, all i was required to do was return a paged call within 30 minutes.
once the call was returned, it took about 5 minutes to determine what the issue was, but we had a 4 hour response SLA, so you could tell a customer, "I'm on call, and not at home, I'll call you back in 2 hours..." and that was acceptible.
We were only paid for time actually logged on calls (rounded to the nearest hour).
At another job, The 1 week a month you were on call, you were expected to keep a quiet household, be at home at all times aside from quick errands, and if you got a call, it had to be answered immediately, and you had to be logged in within 20 minutes of the call.
We were paid 50\% time for all hours "on call" except meals and sleeping and 100\% time on calls (and time and a half as it applied only to time on calls).Further, in many states (including this one), even if only billable when actually on a call, it is illegal to be paid for less than 3 hours in any 24 hour period, regardless of the number of hours worked.
It's also illegal to be compensated for less than 1 hour for any block of time spent working that is more than 1 hour apart from another billable hour.
For example:  on Sunday, you get a call at 10AM that lasts 30 minutes.
You get another call at 3PM that lasts only 15 minutes.
They have to pay yo</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276150</id>
	<title>Re:He's not really "on call"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259580960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You haven't ever paid more for plumber because you called at 2AM?  Where do you live?  Many plumbers and other professions do get called at odd times but usually charge more for responding to that kind of service.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You have n't ever paid more for plumber because you called at 2AM ?
Where do you live ?
Many plumbers and other professions do get called at odd times but usually charge more for responding to that kind of service .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You haven't ever paid more for plumber because you called at 2AM?
Where do you live?
Many plumbers and other professions do get called at odd times but usually charge more for responding to that kind of service.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274570</id>
	<title>Negotiation</title>
	<author>KiwiCanuck</author>
	<datestamp>1259575080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you take a job and are expect to be on call, then it is assumed by the company that the salary adequately covers the time spent on call. If your job changes and you are expected to be on call, you can renegotiate your pay. If you don't like the offer you could, in theory, leave.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you take a job and are expect to be on call , then it is assumed by the company that the salary adequately covers the time spent on call .
If your job changes and you are expected to be on call , you can renegotiate your pay .
If you do n't like the offer you could , in theory , leave .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you take a job and are expect to be on call, then it is assumed by the company that the salary adequately covers the time spent on call.
If your job changes and you are expected to be on call, you can renegotiate your pay.
If you don't like the offer you could, in theory, leave.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274968</id>
	<title>at the very least...</title>
	<author>BattleApple</author>
	<datestamp>1259576760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I expect to be compensated for the alcohol I can't consume when on call</htmltext>
<tokenext>I expect to be compensated for the alcohol I ca n't consume when on call</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I expect to be compensated for the alcohol I can't consume when on call</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273938</id>
	<title>On Call</title>
	<author>Archangel Michael</author>
	<datestamp>1259572680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here's the key for me. The guy works 40 hours / wk in the office. THAT is what he is paid to do. That is what the EMPLOYER contracts for. This is what the article says.</p><blockquote><div><p>... only paid by the hour instead of on salary, with no benefits.</p></div></blockquote><p>If he is being paid, by the hour, for 40 hours (also mentioned in the article) then that is ALL he is contracted for.</p><p>He should submit bills for at least the time he works when called. I would bill at a rate of 1.5 or 2.0 times the normal pay rate. If they want to play nickel and dime, just play back.</p><p>Once they go that route, then they are beholden to a whole new set of employment rules. I'd just let the boss person know that they will be getting billed at the going rate for any off hours support/work calls.</p><p>I'd also suggest that the contractor let them know that if this is not acceptable, then they need to prioritize the work when he gets in on the next day.</p><p>Of Course in this economy, one can just be happy to have a job, and shut up and not say anything. However, if you know the systems and designs and whatnot for the website well, then being "fired" for not being on call is a risk I would be willing to make, especially if it is a steep learning curve to learn how / why things are setup the way they are. Finding good help is not easy, even with all the unemployed out there.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's the key for me .
The guy works 40 hours / wk in the office .
THAT is what he is paid to do .
That is what the EMPLOYER contracts for .
This is what the article says.... only paid by the hour instead of on salary , with no benefits.If he is being paid , by the hour , for 40 hours ( also mentioned in the article ) then that is ALL he is contracted for.He should submit bills for at least the time he works when called .
I would bill at a rate of 1.5 or 2.0 times the normal pay rate .
If they want to play nickel and dime , just play back.Once they go that route , then they are beholden to a whole new set of employment rules .
I 'd just let the boss person know that they will be getting billed at the going rate for any off hours support/work calls.I 'd also suggest that the contractor let them know that if this is not acceptable , then they need to prioritize the work when he gets in on the next day.Of Course in this economy , one can just be happy to have a job , and shut up and not say anything .
However , if you know the systems and designs and whatnot for the website well , then being " fired " for not being on call is a risk I would be willing to make , especially if it is a steep learning curve to learn how / why things are setup the way they are .
Finding good help is not easy , even with all the unemployed out there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's the key for me.
The guy works 40 hours / wk in the office.
THAT is what he is paid to do.
That is what the EMPLOYER contracts for.
This is what the article says.... only paid by the hour instead of on salary, with no benefits.If he is being paid, by the hour, for 40 hours (also mentioned in the article) then that is ALL he is contracted for.He should submit bills for at least the time he works when called.
I would bill at a rate of 1.5 or 2.0 times the normal pay rate.
If they want to play nickel and dime, just play back.Once they go that route, then they are beholden to a whole new set of employment rules.
I'd just let the boss person know that they will be getting billed at the going rate for any off hours support/work calls.I'd also suggest that the contractor let them know that if this is not acceptable, then they need to prioritize the work when he gets in on the next day.Of Course in this economy, one can just be happy to have a job, and shut up and not say anything.
However, if you know the systems and designs and whatnot for the website well, then being "fired" for not being on call is a risk I would be willing to make, especially if it is a steep learning curve to learn how / why things are setup the way they are.
Finding good help is not easy, even with all the unemployed out there.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273986</id>
	<title>Never on call</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259572860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a software engineer with a real CS degree, I have never been "on call" for anything. I'll leave that shit to the pedants.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a software engineer with a real CS degree , I have never been " on call " for anything .
I 'll leave that shit to the pedants .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a software engineer with a real CS degree, I have never been "on call" for anything.
I'll leave that shit to the pedants.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273856</id>
	<title>Re:No way.</title>
	<author>NotBornYesterday</author>
	<datestamp>1259572380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The firefighter is not really paid for that small but crucial amount of time that they are in action. They are paid for the time that they're hanging around the station house unable to do anything BUT respond to fires.</p></div><p>They might have lots of time at the firehouse between fires, but they also have a lot of duties besides fire response.  Ongoing training, equipment maintenance, and responding to non-fire emergencies can take up a considerable amount of time.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The firefighter is not really paid for that small but crucial amount of time that they are in action .
They are paid for the time that they 're hanging around the station house unable to do anything BUT respond to fires.They might have lots of time at the firehouse between fires , but they also have a lot of duties besides fire response .
Ongoing training , equipment maintenance , and responding to non-fire emergencies can take up a considerable amount of time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The firefighter is not really paid for that small but crucial amount of time that they are in action.
They are paid for the time that they're hanging around the station house unable to do anything BUT respond to fires.They might have lots of time at the firehouse between fires, but they also have a lot of duties besides fire response.
Ongoing training, equipment maintenance, and responding to non-fire emergencies can take up a considerable amount of time.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274216</id>
	<title>On call</title>
	<author>countertrolling</author>
	<datestamp>1259573700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I should be paid for any time I am required to remain sober for company purposes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I should be paid for any time I am required to remain sober for company purposes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I should be paid for any time I am required to remain sober for company purposes.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273566</id>
	<title>Big Blue</title>
	<author>greed</author>
	<datestamp>1259614680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
I worked at Big Blue in the 90s, and they had a fixed rate per "shift" for being on-call, they called it "standby".  Though, at the time, I was the first one in the particular office who said, "How much do I get?" when asked to carry a pager.
</p><p>
This money was very, very appealing right out of University.  Six years later, since the rate is independent of your salary (or even salary band or rank... actually or even inflation), it didn't seem quite so impressive.
</p><p>
An "on-call" shift cannot be a shift where you are otherwise expected to be in the office.  (Or working normally, given the "flexiplace" work at home plan.)  Should you actually get called, then you bill time worked, in addition to the standby pay for that shift.  Compensation rates follow the normal overtime rules for your jurisdiction.  (Time-and-a-half, with a four hour "deductible" for Ontario.  So your first four hours of overtime aren't paid.)
</p><p>
My PERSONAL rule is, as long as I have to worry about the company needing me, they need to be paying something.  Like if I can't go out Friday night and get drunk, they need to be paying.  (Normally, I'd expect being sober by Monday morning is no problem.  Being sober for an emergency page at 1 AM Saturday morning.... not so easy.)
</p><p>
Or if it interferes with vacation plans or anything like that.  Or even being able to go see a movie.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I worked at Big Blue in the 90s , and they had a fixed rate per " shift " for being on-call , they called it " standby " .
Though , at the time , I was the first one in the particular office who said , " How much do I get ?
" when asked to carry a pager .
This money was very , very appealing right out of University .
Six years later , since the rate is independent of your salary ( or even salary band or rank... actually or even inflation ) , it did n't seem quite so impressive .
An " on-call " shift can not be a shift where you are otherwise expected to be in the office .
( Or working normally , given the " flexiplace " work at home plan .
) Should you actually get called , then you bill time worked , in addition to the standby pay for that shift .
Compensation rates follow the normal overtime rules for your jurisdiction .
( Time-and-a-half , with a four hour " deductible " for Ontario .
So your first four hours of overtime are n't paid .
) My PERSONAL rule is , as long as I have to worry about the company needing me , they need to be paying something .
Like if I ca n't go out Friday night and get drunk , they need to be paying .
( Normally , I 'd expect being sober by Monday morning is no problem .
Being sober for an emergency page at 1 AM Saturday morning.... not so easy .
) Or if it interferes with vacation plans or anything like that .
Or even being able to go see a movie .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
I worked at Big Blue in the 90s, and they had a fixed rate per "shift" for being on-call, they called it "standby".
Though, at the time, I was the first one in the particular office who said, "How much do I get?
" when asked to carry a pager.
This money was very, very appealing right out of University.
Six years later, since the rate is independent of your salary (or even salary band or rank... actually or even inflation), it didn't seem quite so impressive.
An "on-call" shift cannot be a shift where you are otherwise expected to be in the office.
(Or working normally, given the "flexiplace" work at home plan.
)  Should you actually get called, then you bill time worked, in addition to the standby pay for that shift.
Compensation rates follow the normal overtime rules for your jurisdiction.
(Time-and-a-half, with a four hour "deductible" for Ontario.
So your first four hours of overtime aren't paid.
)

My PERSONAL rule is, as long as I have to worry about the company needing me, they need to be paying something.
Like if I can't go out Friday night and get drunk, they need to be paying.
(Normally, I'd expect being sober by Monday morning is no problem.
Being sober for an emergency page at 1 AM Saturday morning.... not so easy.
)

Or if it interferes with vacation plans or anything like that.
Or even being able to go see a movie.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273436</id>
	<title>He's not really "on call"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259614260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've done a lot of independant contractor work and I've hired dozens of contractors, so I'll put my two cents in.
<br> <br>
As a independent contractor he gets to choose if he wants to work or not.  If he wants to go out of town then go for it, but if they call and you're not available they're going to get someone else.  You're not "on call", they just let you know "hey we have some work here if you want it, if not no problem".
<br> <br>
Being an independant contracotr for a business just means you are someone they know with a particular skill and they will let you know when they need your expertise in the future.  It's the job equivalent of "fuck buddy".
<br> <br>
If he got paid for being "on call" as a independent contractor then we'd all have to pay plumbers, lawn mowing guy, electrician, mechanics, and all the other "use you when I need you" people in our lives for being "on call".</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've done a lot of independant contractor work and I 've hired dozens of contractors , so I 'll put my two cents in .
As a independent contractor he gets to choose if he wants to work or not .
If he wants to go out of town then go for it , but if they call and you 're not available they 're going to get someone else .
You 're not " on call " , they just let you know " hey we have some work here if you want it , if not no problem " .
Being an independant contracotr for a business just means you are someone they know with a particular skill and they will let you know when they need your expertise in the future .
It 's the job equivalent of " fuck buddy " .
If he got paid for being " on call " as a independent contractor then we 'd all have to pay plumbers , lawn mowing guy , electrician , mechanics , and all the other " use you when I need you " people in our lives for being " on call " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've done a lot of independant contractor work and I've hired dozens of contractors, so I'll put my two cents in.
As a independent contractor he gets to choose if he wants to work or not.
If he wants to go out of town then go for it, but if they call and you're not available they're going to get someone else.
You're not "on call", they just let you know "hey we have some work here if you want it, if not no problem".
Being an independant contracotr for a business just means you are someone they know with a particular skill and they will let you know when they need your expertise in the future.
It's the job equivalent of "fuck buddy".
If he got paid for being "on call" as a independent contractor then we'd all have to pay plumbers, lawn mowing guy, electrician, mechanics, and all the other "use you when I need you" people in our lives for being "on call".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274436</id>
	<title>hourly vs salary - suck it up folks</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259574540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is kind of simple in my mind - as someone who schedules vacations in places with no cell coverage - it been years since I wasn't on call 24/7.  I often ask myself why the hell I went into Operations just for that reason.  Having said that - here's how I distill it.</p><p>Hourly employees - you get on-call differential which equals 10\% for each day you are on call + real time worked for taking calls including OT if applicable.</p><p>Salaried employees - suck it up - it's part of your job.  If you are lucky you aren't a single point of failure and can share your on-call duties with other members of your team.</p><p>Management - you are \_always\_ on call unless you are unreachable at which point you'd better have a named backup.</p><p>Its that simple.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is kind of simple in my mind - as someone who schedules vacations in places with no cell coverage - it been years since I was n't on call 24/7 .
I often ask myself why the hell I went into Operations just for that reason .
Having said that - here 's how I distill it.Hourly employees - you get on-call differential which equals 10 \ % for each day you are on call + real time worked for taking calls including OT if applicable.Salaried employees - suck it up - it 's part of your job .
If you are lucky you are n't a single point of failure and can share your on-call duties with other members of your team.Management - you are \ _always \ _ on call unless you are unreachable at which point you 'd better have a named backup.Its that simple .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is kind of simple in my mind - as someone who schedules vacations in places with no cell coverage - it been years since I wasn't on call 24/7.
I often ask myself why the hell I went into Operations just for that reason.
Having said that - here's how I distill it.Hourly employees - you get on-call differential which equals 10\% for each day you are on call + real time worked for taking calls including OT if applicable.Salaried employees - suck it up - it's part of your job.
If you are lucky you aren't a single point of failure and can share your on-call duties with other members of your team.Management - you are \_always\_ on call unless you are unreachable at which point you'd better have a named backup.Its that simple.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30279368</id>
	<title>Re:Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259602800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At the very least, you should check state laws.</p><p>They don't seem to apply here (MN), but in CO<br>last decade, there was a law that on-call employees<br>had to be paid 1 hour for every 8 they were on-call.<br>Our sysadmin got a significant raise and back-pay<br>when this was discovered.  (Nobody got nasty; just<br>somebody in HR realized that we weren't complying<br>w/ state (?) law.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At the very least , you should check state laws.They do n't seem to apply here ( MN ) , but in COlast decade , there was a law that on-call employeeshad to be paid 1 hour for every 8 they were on-call.Our sysadmin got a significant raise and back-paywhen this was discovered .
( Nobody got nasty ; justsomebody in HR realized that we were n't complyingw/ state ( ?
) law .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At the very least, you should check state laws.They don't seem to apply here (MN), but in COlast decade, there was a law that on-call employeeshad to be paid 1 hour for every 8 they were on-call.Our sysadmin got a significant raise and back-paywhen this was discovered.
(Nobody got nasty; justsomebody in HR realized that we weren't complyingw/ state (?
) law.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30289816</id>
	<title>Why complicate matters?</title>
	<author>drechsau</author>
	<datestamp>1259666160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unions are dumb, okay?  There is no reason for it in the IT world, none what so ever.</p><p>Pay people for their time.  If they are doing work 40 hours a week, then are on call, and a call comes in, pay them for that call even if it is overtime.  Simple, easy, and sets a standard that doesn't suck.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unions are dumb , okay ?
There is no reason for it in the IT world , none what so ever.Pay people for their time .
If they are doing work 40 hours a week , then are on call , and a call comes in , pay them for that call even if it is overtime .
Simple , easy , and sets a standard that does n't suck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unions are dumb, okay?
There is no reason for it in the IT world, none what so ever.Pay people for their time.
If they are doing work 40 hours a week, then are on call, and a call comes in, pay them for that call even if it is overtime.
Simple, easy, and sets a standard that doesn't suck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275812</id>
	<title>How it works where I work</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259579940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My company pays on-call technical support employees 1/4 of their normal hourly pay 24/7 for the week (Monday 8am USA Pacific Time until the following Monday at the same time) except for the time they are working their normal shift, when they get their normal hourly wages. So if I'm on call and my normal office hours are 8-5, I'll get my normal wages from 8-noon, then 1/4 normal wages during my lunch break, since I'm not truly free but on call, then normal wages from noon to 5pm, then 1/4 from 5pm until 8am the next day, and 1/4 all weekend long. If anyone actually calls, I'm on the clock earning full wages (including overtime when applicable) for a minimum of 15 minutes per phone call. On-call hours do not count as hours worked for overtime purposes. Of course, we're in California and are hourly employees subject to overtime, but I don't think the law requires on-call pay. However, in return for my being no more than 15 minutes away from an Internet connection 24/7, I get quite a tasty paycheck.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My company pays on-call technical support employees 1/4 of their normal hourly pay 24/7 for the week ( Monday 8am USA Pacific Time until the following Monday at the same time ) except for the time they are working their normal shift , when they get their normal hourly wages .
So if I 'm on call and my normal office hours are 8-5 , I 'll get my normal wages from 8-noon , then 1/4 normal wages during my lunch break , since I 'm not truly free but on call , then normal wages from noon to 5pm , then 1/4 from 5pm until 8am the next day , and 1/4 all weekend long .
If anyone actually calls , I 'm on the clock earning full wages ( including overtime when applicable ) for a minimum of 15 minutes per phone call .
On-call hours do not count as hours worked for overtime purposes .
Of course , we 're in California and are hourly employees subject to overtime , but I do n't think the law requires on-call pay .
However , in return for my being no more than 15 minutes away from an Internet connection 24/7 , I get quite a tasty paycheck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My company pays on-call technical support employees 1/4 of their normal hourly pay 24/7 for the week (Monday 8am USA Pacific Time until the following Monday at the same time) except for the time they are working their normal shift, when they get their normal hourly wages.
So if I'm on call and my normal office hours are 8-5, I'll get my normal wages from 8-noon, then 1/4 normal wages during my lunch break, since I'm not truly free but on call, then normal wages from noon to 5pm, then 1/4 from 5pm until 8am the next day, and 1/4 all weekend long.
If anyone actually calls, I'm on the clock earning full wages (including overtime when applicable) for a minimum of 15 minutes per phone call.
On-call hours do not count as hours worked for overtime purposes.
Of course, we're in California and are hourly employees subject to overtime, but I don't think the law requires on-call pay.
However, in return for my being no more than 15 minutes away from an Internet connection 24/7, I get quite a tasty paycheck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273720</id>
	<title>Re:Personally I believe it depends upon if you're.</title>
	<author>defaria</author>
	<datestamp>1259571900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No, salaried means you get paid for the week - not for the number of hours worked in the week. On call for a weekend - take two days off. You're 100\% entitled so long as your work is getting done. You see "salaried" goes both ways though most people are too timid to take advantage of it...</htmltext>
<tokenext>No , salaried means you get paid for the week - not for the number of hours worked in the week .
On call for a weekend - take two days off .
You 're 100 \ % entitled so long as your work is getting done .
You see " salaried " goes both ways though most people are too timid to take advantage of it.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, salaried means you get paid for the week - not for the number of hours worked in the week.
On call for a weekend - take two days off.
You're 100\% entitled so long as your work is getting done.
You see "salaried" goes both ways though most people are too timid to take advantage of it...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273272</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30309554</id>
	<title>France is a beautiful country...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259851680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... we are paid one tenth of our salary while being on call doing nothing; and if the call do come, we're paid OT. I don't think that's robbing our bosses; that's only fair.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... we are paid one tenth of our salary while being on call doing nothing ; and if the call do come , we 're paid OT .
I do n't think that 's robbing our bosses ; that 's only fair .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... we are paid one tenth of our salary while being on call doing nothing; and if the call do come, we're paid OT.
I don't think that's robbing our bosses; that's only fair.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274012</id>
	<title>Been there, got the "No Way" t-shirt</title>
	<author>axafg00b</author>
	<datestamp>1259572980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Back in my early techie years, I was a unionized IT employee at an East Coast university. When pagers started to roll out, our union leadership started to make noise about getting overtime (or added compensation) for carrying said pagers. Long story short, the university system leadership said not only "No" but "H*** No". We didn't strike either.</p><p>Fast forward about 23 years and the network group I was in had a rotating on-call pager. For a long time, we would take an extra day off to make up for the fact that we were on-call (answering questions that should never have come to our group). However, that ended with a new manager who said that we couldn't afford to provide these "undocumented" days' off. Our colleagues in a foreign country, however, still receive extra pay for carrying a pager.</p><p>Bottom line is, in the US over the last 20-25 years, employers have been squeezing the employees harder and harder even as more jobs go overseas or to low-balling contractors. Unless there is a major sea change in employer-employee relations (and there will not be any time soon), forget about collecting any extras.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Back in my early techie years , I was a unionized IT employee at an East Coast university .
When pagers started to roll out , our union leadership started to make noise about getting overtime ( or added compensation ) for carrying said pagers .
Long story short , the university system leadership said not only " No " but " H * * * No " .
We did n't strike either.Fast forward about 23 years and the network group I was in had a rotating on-call pager .
For a long time , we would take an extra day off to make up for the fact that we were on-call ( answering questions that should never have come to our group ) .
However , that ended with a new manager who said that we could n't afford to provide these " undocumented " days ' off .
Our colleagues in a foreign country , however , still receive extra pay for carrying a pager.Bottom line is , in the US over the last 20-25 years , employers have been squeezing the employees harder and harder even as more jobs go overseas or to low-balling contractors .
Unless there is a major sea change in employer-employee relations ( and there will not be any time soon ) , forget about collecting any extras .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back in my early techie years, I was a unionized IT employee at an East Coast university.
When pagers started to roll out, our union leadership started to make noise about getting overtime (or added compensation) for carrying said pagers.
Long story short, the university system leadership said not only "No" but "H*** No".
We didn't strike either.Fast forward about 23 years and the network group I was in had a rotating on-call pager.
For a long time, we would take an extra day off to make up for the fact that we were on-call (answering questions that should never have come to our group).
However, that ended with a new manager who said that we couldn't afford to provide these "undocumented" days' off.
Our colleagues in a foreign country, however, still receive extra pay for carrying a pager.Bottom line is, in the US over the last 20-25 years, employers have been squeezing the employees harder and harder even as more jobs go overseas or to low-balling contractors.
Unless there is a major sea change in employer-employee relations (and there will not be any time soon), forget about collecting any extras.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276598</id>
	<title>Re:There seems to be some confusion here...</title>
	<author>tedrlord</author>
	<datestamp>1259582640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The difficulty with including oncall pay in the base salary of the position is that oncall time and difficulty can vary greatly depending on circumstances, and there's no way to reflect that in one's salary in a timely manner. If one member of the team gets ill and another has to cover two 24/7 shifts, he is not going to be happy if he's not getting compensated. Extra comp time would help, but that's more or less identical to paying a bonus, except that you're getting less productivity out of the department.</p><p>There are also longer term issues. If an employee is promoted, quits, or dies (it's happened =(), the oncall rotation can change a lot, and in addition to the extra work required of the team to make up for the missing position, it can brew discontent fairly quickly. People can talk about salaries and agreements and sucking it up and such, but if you have a good team they probably realize it as much as you do, and screwing them over with extra work that they were not expecting when they were hired and without appropriate compensation is not a good way to keep people around.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The difficulty with including oncall pay in the base salary of the position is that oncall time and difficulty can vary greatly depending on circumstances , and there 's no way to reflect that in one 's salary in a timely manner .
If one member of the team gets ill and another has to cover two 24/7 shifts , he is not going to be happy if he 's not getting compensated .
Extra comp time would help , but that 's more or less identical to paying a bonus , except that you 're getting less productivity out of the department.There are also longer term issues .
If an employee is promoted , quits , or dies ( it 's happened = ( ) , the oncall rotation can change a lot , and in addition to the extra work required of the team to make up for the missing position , it can brew discontent fairly quickly .
People can talk about salaries and agreements and sucking it up and such , but if you have a good team they probably realize it as much as you do , and screwing them over with extra work that they were not expecting when they were hired and without appropriate compensation is not a good way to keep people around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The difficulty with including oncall pay in the base salary of the position is that oncall time and difficulty can vary greatly depending on circumstances, and there's no way to reflect that in one's salary in a timely manner.
If one member of the team gets ill and another has to cover two 24/7 shifts, he is not going to be happy if he's not getting compensated.
Extra comp time would help, but that's more or less identical to paying a bonus, except that you're getting less productivity out of the department.There are also longer term issues.
If an employee is promoted, quits, or dies (it's happened =(), the oncall rotation can change a lot, and in addition to the extra work required of the team to make up for the missing position, it can brew discontent fairly quickly.
People can talk about salaries and agreements and sucking it up and such, but if you have a good team they probably realize it as much as you do, and screwing them over with extra work that they were not expecting when they were hired and without appropriate compensation is not a good way to keep people around.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273750</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273798</id>
	<title>Employee vs Contractor</title>
	<author>fooslacker</author>
	<datestamp>1259572200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>An employee is paid for being on call...it's called a salary.  A contractor on the other hand is paid for work when called in but not for being on call. If a contractor wants to be paid for being on call he/she should negotiate this up front.  I suspect however they will learn the realities of the market take precedence and the job will go to someone who doesn't demand to be paid for being on call.</htmltext>
<tokenext>An employee is paid for being on call...it 's called a salary .
A contractor on the other hand is paid for work when called in but not for being on call .
If a contractor wants to be paid for being on call he/she should negotiate this up front .
I suspect however they will learn the realities of the market take precedence and the job will go to someone who does n't demand to be paid for being on call .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An employee is paid for being on call...it's called a salary.
A contractor on the other hand is paid for work when called in but not for being on call.
If a contractor wants to be paid for being on call he/she should negotiate this up front.
I suspect however they will learn the realities of the market take precedence and the job will go to someone who doesn't demand to be paid for being on call.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273668</id>
	<title>On call compared to 9-5</title>
	<author>Logic Worshipper</author>
	<datestamp>1259571780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At my last job I had a choice, I could be on call almost all the time, but work from home and/or have flexible hours.  Or I could work a standard shift from the office 9-5. Being on call and work flexible hours wasn't a hard choice.  I used the same tools when I was working from home as when I working from the office, an internet connection, a phone, and my laptop. Most of the work I did was remote support anyway (client was far from our office anyway). I'd much rather be on call than tied to desk in the office.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At my last job I had a choice , I could be on call almost all the time , but work from home and/or have flexible hours .
Or I could work a standard shift from the office 9-5 .
Being on call and work flexible hours was n't a hard choice .
I used the same tools when I was working from home as when I working from the office , an internet connection , a phone , and my laptop .
Most of the work I did was remote support anyway ( client was far from our office anyway ) .
I 'd much rather be on call than tied to desk in the office .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At my last job I had a choice, I could be on call almost all the time, but work from home and/or have flexible hours.
Or I could work a standard shift from the office 9-5.
Being on call and work flexible hours wasn't a hard choice.
I used the same tools when I was working from home as when I working from the office, an internet connection, a phone, and my laptop.
Most of the work I did was remote support anyway (client was far from our office anyway).
I'd much rather be on call than tied to desk in the office.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275732</id>
	<title>Re:Personally I believe it depends upon if you're.</title>
	<author>anyGould</author>
	<datestamp>1259579640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Presuming he/she is salaried, you can't complain about it after accepting the position.  You can attempt to re-negotiate your employment contract or quit.</p></div><p>This attitude always confused me - just because I'm salaried doesn't mean my employer gets <i>carte blanche</i> with my life. Sure, the law says I don't get paid for overtime. On the other hand, it doesn't say I must work an unlimited number of hours, either. Employers just like to "expect" that. (And why wouldn't they? Free labor &gt; paid labor.)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Presuming he/she is salaried , you ca n't complain about it after accepting the position .
You can attempt to re-negotiate your employment contract or quit.This attitude always confused me - just because I 'm salaried does n't mean my employer gets carte blanche with my life .
Sure , the law says I do n't get paid for overtime .
On the other hand , it does n't say I must work an unlimited number of hours , either .
Employers just like to " expect " that .
( And why would n't they ?
Free labor &gt; paid labor .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Presuming he/she is salaried, you can't complain about it after accepting the position.
You can attempt to re-negotiate your employment contract or quit.This attitude always confused me - just because I'm salaried doesn't mean my employer gets carte blanche with my life.
Sure, the law says I don't get paid for overtime.
On the other hand, it doesn't say I must work an unlimited number of hours, either.
Employers just like to "expect" that.
(And why wouldn't they?
Free labor &gt; paid labor.
)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273272</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275096</id>
	<title>Re:He's not really "on call"</title>
	<author>anamin</author>
	<datestamp>1259577240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In my experience in an "emergency" type situation, most of those professions are indeed available, BUT you pay a premium for the off hours work. If I call a plumber at 3am I expect that I'm going to pay a premium over his normal business hours.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In my experience in an " emergency " type situation , most of those professions are indeed available , BUT you pay a premium for the off hours work .
If I call a plumber at 3am I expect that I 'm going to pay a premium over his normal business hours .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my experience in an "emergency" type situation, most of those professions are indeed available, BUT you pay a premium for the off hours work.
If I call a plumber at 3am I expect that I'm going to pay a premium over his normal business hours.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273830</id>
	<title>Re:Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>Hatta</author>
	<datestamp>1259572320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>You're basically hooked to a pager, which means you need to be near a phone, and usually near a computer with internet connectivity.</i></p><p>And you need to be sober.  Depending on what it is you like to do with your free time, the possibility of having to work at any moment might severely impair your ability to properly enjoy your free time.  That has value.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're basically hooked to a pager , which means you need to be near a phone , and usually near a computer with internet connectivity.And you need to be sober .
Depending on what it is you like to do with your free time , the possibility of having to work at any moment might severely impair your ability to properly enjoy your free time .
That has value .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're basically hooked to a pager, which means you need to be near a phone, and usually near a computer with internet connectivity.And you need to be sober.
Depending on what it is you like to do with your free time, the possibility of having to work at any moment might severely impair your ability to properly enjoy your free time.
That has value.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274046</id>
	<title>Re:hospital model...</title>
	<author>Backward Z</author>
	<datestamp>1259573100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This doesn't sound right.</p><p>Let me preface by saying: I'm probably wrong about this, but less wrong than you are.</p><p>I have a friend who works as an auto-transfusionist at the UCSF hosptial.  If I remember correctly, he explained that he gets paid something between half and his full salary rate for being on call.  When he actually gets called in during his on-call hours, he gets billed time and a half.</p><p>The $1-$2/hr figure seems to be astronomically low.  Again, my memory isn't perfect, but I do seem to remember when this same friend was telling me about his pay scheme, he mentioned that should a couple of on-call days go by without getting called in, he'd still end up making over a grand.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This does n't sound right.Let me preface by saying : I 'm probably wrong about this , but less wrong than you are.I have a friend who works as an auto-transfusionist at the UCSF hosptial .
If I remember correctly , he explained that he gets paid something between half and his full salary rate for being on call .
When he actually gets called in during his on-call hours , he gets billed time and a half.The $ 1- $ 2/hr figure seems to be astronomically low .
Again , my memory is n't perfect , but I do seem to remember when this same friend was telling me about his pay scheme , he mentioned that should a couple of on-call days go by without getting called in , he 'd still end up making over a grand .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This doesn't sound right.Let me preface by saying: I'm probably wrong about this, but less wrong than you are.I have a friend who works as an auto-transfusionist at the UCSF hosptial.
If I remember correctly, he explained that he gets paid something between half and his full salary rate for being on call.
When he actually gets called in during his on-call hours, he gets billed time and a half.The $1-$2/hr figure seems to be astronomically low.
Again, my memory isn't perfect, but I do seem to remember when this same friend was telling me about his pay scheme, he mentioned that should a couple of on-call days go by without getting called in, he'd still end up making over a grand.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273626</id>
	<title>Contract?</title>
	<author>jbeaupre</author>
	<datestamp>1259571600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What does the contract say?  If support hours and costs are defined, that's that.  If not, then it's up to the two parties to work something out.</p><p>I'd offer several options.  For example:<br>1) Fixed monthly rate (for answering calls) plus normal hourly rate (for time involved to fix problem) or<br>2) No fixed rate, hefty hourly rate<br>3) No fixed rate, sliding scale depending on day and time (normal rate during normal hours to X times after midnight).<br>4) Combinations and variations of the above (i.e. fixed rate to answer weekend calls, plus hefty hourly rate)</p><p>Make sure you are ok with all the options, then by giving a choice, the client at least feels they get to choose what is best for themselves.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What does the contract say ?
If support hours and costs are defined , that 's that .
If not , then it 's up to the two parties to work something out.I 'd offer several options .
For example : 1 ) Fixed monthly rate ( for answering calls ) plus normal hourly rate ( for time involved to fix problem ) or2 ) No fixed rate , hefty hourly rate3 ) No fixed rate , sliding scale depending on day and time ( normal rate during normal hours to X times after midnight ) .4 ) Combinations and variations of the above ( i.e .
fixed rate to answer weekend calls , plus hefty hourly rate ) Make sure you are ok with all the options , then by giving a choice , the client at least feels they get to choose what is best for themselves .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What does the contract say?
If support hours and costs are defined, that's that.
If not, then it's up to the two parties to work something out.I'd offer several options.
For example:1) Fixed monthly rate (for answering calls) plus normal hourly rate (for time involved to fix problem) or2) No fixed rate, hefty hourly rate3) No fixed rate, sliding scale depending on day and time (normal rate during normal hours to X times after midnight).4) Combinations and variations of the above (i.e.
fixed rate to answer weekend calls, plus hefty hourly rate)Make sure you are ok with all the options, then by giving a choice, the client at least feels they get to choose what is best for themselves.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273572</id>
	<title>The workman is worth his hire</title>
	<author>BabaChazz</author>
	<datestamp>1259614680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Rule is, you want work, you pay for it.</p><p>Way I see it, I'll take the pager and be on call, but the rule is, as I am a contractor, you pay standard-with-full-access rates, minimum 2-hour callout, every time that sucker goes off outside times I'm at the office. (You're paying already when I am at the office.) I bump my standard rates a bit to cover the possibility of interruption, if you want me to be available at any time. If I were an employee, any time that sucker goes off outside office hours, local labor laws say you have to pay me overtime, and a minimum of four hours if I get called into the office. I'd be willing to drop that to a minimum two hours of double time, from four of time and a half.</p><p>The fireman idea is flawed, because it is, in fact, not an on-call situation. You are paid for the time that you are on call, but you are actually in the fire hall while you are on call. Your shift ends, you close the door behind you, and nominally you are done. You don't have to worry about being waked up for an emergency call out, when you're off duty. It's much closer to the situation of a volunteer firefighter, who is on call 24/7 because there is nobody else and who is doing it basically out of altruism. Because of its volunteer nature, that doesn't apply either; you're not volunteering at your job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Rule is , you want work , you pay for it.Way I see it , I 'll take the pager and be on call , but the rule is , as I am a contractor , you pay standard-with-full-access rates , minimum 2-hour callout , every time that sucker goes off outside times I 'm at the office .
( You 're paying already when I am at the office .
) I bump my standard rates a bit to cover the possibility of interruption , if you want me to be available at any time .
If I were an employee , any time that sucker goes off outside office hours , local labor laws say you have to pay me overtime , and a minimum of four hours if I get called into the office .
I 'd be willing to drop that to a minimum two hours of double time , from four of time and a half.The fireman idea is flawed , because it is , in fact , not an on-call situation .
You are paid for the time that you are on call , but you are actually in the fire hall while you are on call .
Your shift ends , you close the door behind you , and nominally you are done .
You do n't have to worry about being waked up for an emergency call out , when you 're off duty .
It 's much closer to the situation of a volunteer firefighter , who is on call 24/7 because there is nobody else and who is doing it basically out of altruism .
Because of its volunteer nature , that does n't apply either ; you 're not volunteering at your job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Rule is, you want work, you pay for it.Way I see it, I'll take the pager and be on call, but the rule is, as I am a contractor, you pay standard-with-full-access rates, minimum 2-hour callout, every time that sucker goes off outside times I'm at the office.
(You're paying already when I am at the office.
) I bump my standard rates a bit to cover the possibility of interruption, if you want me to be available at any time.
If I were an employee, any time that sucker goes off outside office hours, local labor laws say you have to pay me overtime, and a minimum of four hours if I get called into the office.
I'd be willing to drop that to a minimum two hours of double time, from four of time and a half.The fireman idea is flawed, because it is, in fact, not an on-call situation.
You are paid for the time that you are on call, but you are actually in the fire hall while you are on call.
Your shift ends, you close the door behind you, and nominally you are done.
You don't have to worry about being waked up for an emergency call out, when you're off duty.
It's much closer to the situation of a volunteer firefighter, who is on call 24/7 because there is nobody else and who is doing it basically out of altruism.
Because of its volunteer nature, that doesn't apply either; you're not volunteering at your job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276106</id>
	<title>RAILROAD GUARANTEE</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259580900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work for a major railroad. Like anywhere else, we need people to fill in for others on vacation or sick leave or whatever.</p><p>I work on call, for ~US$3500 per half a month. I can work every other day, or none at all, and still make the $3500 for just being on call. There are stipulations though; calling in sick or just being unavailable dings you a days worth of that pay, and so on...</p><p>I would never work "on-call" again, without being on a 'guarantee' system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work for a major railroad .
Like anywhere else , we need people to fill in for others on vacation or sick leave or whatever.I work on call , for ~ US $ 3500 per half a month .
I can work every other day , or none at all , and still make the $ 3500 for just being on call .
There are stipulations though ; calling in sick or just being unavailable dings you a days worth of that pay , and so on...I would never work " on-call " again , without being on a 'guarantee ' system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work for a major railroad.
Like anywhere else, we need people to fill in for others on vacation or sick leave or whatever.I work on call, for ~US$3500 per half a month.
I can work every other day, or none at all, and still make the $3500 for just being on call.
There are stipulations though; calling in sick or just being unavailable dings you a days worth of that pay, and so on...I would never work "on-call" again, without being on a 'guarantee' system.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30277772</id>
	<title>Re:The point is that your time is not your own</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259588700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Trying to figure out the cost associated with not going to your playoff game that you were given tickets to, because you were going to be too far away and enjoying a brew or two during the proceeds.</p><p>Playoff Baseball?  Priceless.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Trying to figure out the cost associated with not going to your playoff game that you were given tickets to , because you were going to be too far away and enjoying a brew or two during the proceeds.Playoff Baseball ?
Priceless .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Trying to figure out the cost associated with not going to your playoff game that you were given tickets to, because you were going to be too far away and enjoying a brew or two during the proceeds.Playoff Baseball?
Priceless.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30281134</id>
	<title>Re:Firefighting</title>
	<author>jipis</author>
	<datestamp>1259665740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've been the poor schmo carrying the pager. (Government job: Didn't get paid to carry the pager, but, if I got called in, was paid for a minimum of 2 hours regardless of how long I was there and the time was either OT or part of my 40 hours.) I'm currently a volunteer EMT in my local FD and have many friends who are career firefighters. The lawyer is *SO* off-base with his analogy. Paid FFs are paid for their time in station. They are not paid for the small (depending on location) percentage of time that they are off saving the world. They're paid to train, watch TV, train some more, sleep, train just a bit more, and -- yeah -- respond when the tones go off.

<br> <br>As a volunteer, I carry a pager. If it goes off (EMS-side), I respond if I can. If I can't, someone else has it covered. I put in my 40 for The Man. Then I put in another 10-15/wk because I want to. My brothers who volunteer at my station and are career down the road do the exact same thing. I get paid for when I'm ON-DUTY. They get paid for when they're ON-DUTY. For me, on-duty is sitting at my desk coding. For them, on-duty is either available-in-quarters, available-in-district, training, or on the scene.  Their 40 is a bit different than mine. The point, though, is that duty hours are duty hours.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been the poor schmo carrying the pager .
( Government job : Did n't get paid to carry the pager , but , if I got called in , was paid for a minimum of 2 hours regardless of how long I was there and the time was either OT or part of my 40 hours .
) I 'm currently a volunteer EMT in my local FD and have many friends who are career firefighters .
The lawyer is * SO * off-base with his analogy .
Paid FFs are paid for their time in station .
They are not paid for the small ( depending on location ) percentage of time that they are off saving the world .
They 're paid to train , watch TV , train some more , sleep , train just a bit more , and -- yeah -- respond when the tones go off .
As a volunteer , I carry a pager .
If it goes off ( EMS-side ) , I respond if I can .
If I ca n't , someone else has it covered .
I put in my 40 for The Man .
Then I put in another 10-15/wk because I want to .
My brothers who volunteer at my station and are career down the road do the exact same thing .
I get paid for when I 'm ON-DUTY .
They get paid for when they 're ON-DUTY .
For me , on-duty is sitting at my desk coding .
For them , on-duty is either available-in-quarters , available-in-district , training , or on the scene .
Their 40 is a bit different than mine .
The point , though , is that duty hours are duty hours .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been the poor schmo carrying the pager.
(Government job: Didn't get paid to carry the pager, but, if I got called in, was paid for a minimum of 2 hours regardless of how long I was there and the time was either OT or part of my 40 hours.
) I'm currently a volunteer EMT in my local FD and have many friends who are career firefighters.
The lawyer is *SO* off-base with his analogy.
Paid FFs are paid for their time in station.
They are not paid for the small (depending on location) percentage of time that they are off saving the world.
They're paid to train, watch TV, train some more, sleep, train just a bit more, and -- yeah -- respond when the tones go off.
As a volunteer, I carry a pager.
If it goes off (EMS-side), I respond if I can.
If I can't, someone else has it covered.
I put in my 40 for The Man.
Then I put in another 10-15/wk because I want to.
My brothers who volunteer at my station and are career down the road do the exact same thing.
I get paid for when I'm ON-DUTY.
They get paid for when they're ON-DUTY.
For me, on-duty is sitting at my desk coding.
For them, on-duty is either available-in-quarters, available-in-district, training, or on the scene.
Their 40 is a bit different than mine.
The point, though, is that duty hours are duty hours.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274346</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273642</id>
	<title>Rather  be a consultant than contractor</title>
	<author>mrisaacs</author>
	<datestamp>1259571660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As an employee I never received overtime pay for being on call or overtime, though I always got comp time.</p><p>Technically contracting and consulting are not the same thing.</p><p>As a contractor, I've always been paid by the hour for a specific time span, when the contract expired it was extended or dropped. As far as support, I didn't get paid unless I was actually called in - my contracts always stated terms and rates. On some contracts there were ceilings on the amount I could bill.</p><p>As a consultant (current situation) I have specific deliverables, and scheduled dates for delivery. I'm paid a fixed amount for the work, with the final payment held until the acceptance conditions are met. My contracts usually include a support rider as well, for 6 months to a year after acceptance. further support requires a new contract. In any case there's no payment unless there's a problem.  If I'm called in and the cause of the problem is determined not to be a "fault" in what I've delivered, I'm paid at a specified rate, otherwise, I eat the time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As an employee I never received overtime pay for being on call or overtime , though I always got comp time.Technically contracting and consulting are not the same thing.As a contractor , I 've always been paid by the hour for a specific time span , when the contract expired it was extended or dropped .
As far as support , I did n't get paid unless I was actually called in - my contracts always stated terms and rates .
On some contracts there were ceilings on the amount I could bill.As a consultant ( current situation ) I have specific deliverables , and scheduled dates for delivery .
I 'm paid a fixed amount for the work , with the final payment held until the acceptance conditions are met .
My contracts usually include a support rider as well , for 6 months to a year after acceptance .
further support requires a new contract .
In any case there 's no payment unless there 's a problem .
If I 'm called in and the cause of the problem is determined not to be a " fault " in what I 've delivered , I 'm paid at a specified rate , otherwise , I eat the time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As an employee I never received overtime pay for being on call or overtime, though I always got comp time.Technically contracting and consulting are not the same thing.As a contractor, I've always been paid by the hour for a specific time span, when the contract expired it was extended or dropped.
As far as support, I didn't get paid unless I was actually called in - my contracts always stated terms and rates.
On some contracts there were ceilings on the amount I could bill.As a consultant (current situation) I have specific deliverables, and scheduled dates for delivery.
I'm paid a fixed amount for the work, with the final payment held until the acceptance conditions are met.
My contracts usually include a support rider as well, for 6 months to a year after acceptance.
further support requires a new contract.
In any case there's no payment unless there's a problem.
If I'm called in and the cause of the problem is determined not to be a "fault" in what I've delivered, I'm paid at a specified rate, otherwise, I eat the time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273498</id>
	<title>nonsense and bullshit</title>
	<author>Tom</author>
	<datestamp>1259614500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On-call duty is to be paid, end of story. Anyone trying to sell you otherwise is trying to save money at your expense.</p><p>That said, of course it isn't paid at the same rate as a regular work hour. After all, you can spend it dozing, surfing the web for porn, fighting with your loved one or going shopping.</p><p>The alternative for the company to having someone on call is to have someone there, on the clock. Obviously, that's a lot more expensive. Since they're a company and trying to make a profit, they'll try to get things as cheaply as possible, and free if at all possible. That doesn't mean you have to give it to them for free. Next they'll be asking for free overtime, and then if you'd mind not being paid at all.</p><p>Really, I'm not being sarcastic. They are essentially asking you to work for nothing. It's not much work (carrying a cell phone and picking it up if it rings), but it's work.</p><p>And don't let them fool you with examples of other jobs. There are some jobs where being on call is so standard that it's figured into the regular salary. That doesn't mean it's free, it's just not explicitly listed on the paycheck. And of course firemen get paid for the time they're waiting for an emergency. After all, that's why we <b>have</b> professional firefighters - to have someone ready to come at a moments notice. And if you check their contracts, they certainly don't say "a work week consists of 3,5 hours inside burning buildings and 1,5 hours rescuing lost cats", but much more likely something like "a work week consists of 40 hours".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On-call duty is to be paid , end of story .
Anyone trying to sell you otherwise is trying to save money at your expense.That said , of course it is n't paid at the same rate as a regular work hour .
After all , you can spend it dozing , surfing the web for porn , fighting with your loved one or going shopping.The alternative for the company to having someone on call is to have someone there , on the clock .
Obviously , that 's a lot more expensive .
Since they 're a company and trying to make a profit , they 'll try to get things as cheaply as possible , and free if at all possible .
That does n't mean you have to give it to them for free .
Next they 'll be asking for free overtime , and then if you 'd mind not being paid at all.Really , I 'm not being sarcastic .
They are essentially asking you to work for nothing .
It 's not much work ( carrying a cell phone and picking it up if it rings ) , but it 's work.And do n't let them fool you with examples of other jobs .
There are some jobs where being on call is so standard that it 's figured into the regular salary .
That does n't mean it 's free , it 's just not explicitly listed on the paycheck .
And of course firemen get paid for the time they 're waiting for an emergency .
After all , that 's why we have professional firefighters - to have someone ready to come at a moments notice .
And if you check their contracts , they certainly do n't say " a work week consists of 3,5 hours inside burning buildings and 1,5 hours rescuing lost cats " , but much more likely something like " a work week consists of 40 hours " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On-call duty is to be paid, end of story.
Anyone trying to sell you otherwise is trying to save money at your expense.That said, of course it isn't paid at the same rate as a regular work hour.
After all, you can spend it dozing, surfing the web for porn, fighting with your loved one or going shopping.The alternative for the company to having someone on call is to have someone there, on the clock.
Obviously, that's a lot more expensive.
Since they're a company and trying to make a profit, they'll try to get things as cheaply as possible, and free if at all possible.
That doesn't mean you have to give it to them for free.
Next they'll be asking for free overtime, and then if you'd mind not being paid at all.Really, I'm not being sarcastic.
They are essentially asking you to work for nothing.
It's not much work (carrying a cell phone and picking it up if it rings), but it's work.And don't let them fool you with examples of other jobs.
There are some jobs where being on call is so standard that it's figured into the regular salary.
That doesn't mean it's free, it's just not explicitly listed on the paycheck.
And of course firemen get paid for the time they're waiting for an emergency.
After all, that's why we have professional firefighters - to have someone ready to come at a moments notice.
And if you check their contracts, they certainly don't say "a work week consists of 3,5 hours inside burning buildings and 1,5 hours rescuing lost cats", but much more likely something like "a work week consists of 40 hours".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273346</id>
	<title>Well...</title>
	<author>bytethese</author>
	<datestamp>1259614020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As a person who works closely with on call groups but not on call himself, I can say that were I tasked to now be on call, I would expect compensation as such.  We pay our employees a normal wage but if they work a later shift, they get a "travel allowance" that most just use as additional income.  The federal government also gives a bump in pay adjustment to jobs who work to the tune of 50hrs instead of 40hrs.<br> <br>

Meaning if you go from 40hrs to 40hrs + "We can call if we need you" you should then therefore be given a higher overall wage to compensate your time focused on work.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As a person who works closely with on call groups but not on call himself , I can say that were I tasked to now be on call , I would expect compensation as such .
We pay our employees a normal wage but if they work a later shift , they get a " travel allowance " that most just use as additional income .
The federal government also gives a bump in pay adjustment to jobs who work to the tune of 50hrs instead of 40hrs .
Meaning if you go from 40hrs to 40hrs + " We can call if we need you " you should then therefore be given a higher overall wage to compensate your time focused on work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a person who works closely with on call groups but not on call himself, I can say that were I tasked to now be on call, I would expect compensation as such.
We pay our employees a normal wage but if they work a later shift, they get a "travel allowance" that most just use as additional income.
The federal government also gives a bump in pay adjustment to jobs who work to the tune of 50hrs instead of 40hrs.
Meaning if you go from 40hrs to 40hrs + "We can call if we need you" you should then therefore be given a higher overall wage to compensate your time focused on work.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276568</id>
	<title>Re:He's not really "on call"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259582520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And plumbers charge 3x for calling them in the middle of night. And they most definitely don't do it for free.</p><p>You usually either pay a "retainer" up front, or you pay a lot when you need urgent help.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And plumbers charge 3x for calling them in the middle of night .
And they most definitely do n't do it for free.You usually either pay a " retainer " up front , or you pay a lot when you need urgent help .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And plumbers charge 3x for calling them in the middle of night.
And they most definitely don't do it for free.You usually either pay a "retainer" up front, or you pay a lot when you need urgent help.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278794</id>
	<title>Restriction</title>
	<author>Hyperhaplo</author>
	<datestamp>1259597520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First, some context. I work in a large dept. with ~500 IT (in the main IT group.. there are other small fringe IT groups as well) that writes Applications (COBOL / Java) for Mainframe and Midrange. Some of our systems are true 24/7, most are 23/7.</p><p>I work in 'environment operations', of which to clarify means that the actual "operations" for mainframe and midrange is supplied as a Service. So, I'm not a mainframe console operator, nor do I administrate midrange servers. I'm on the other side - support for Applications. Change management. Release management. Environment management. Production support. Performance management. Test support.</p><p>Several of our duties require for specialists to be onside or oncall outside of business hours. Where this is required, work provides a mobile phone (it pays for the phone and calls) and pays a 'restriction' which is a percentage paid per hour based on your current salary. For most people it means about $100 for an average week (7 days) of carrying the phone around. This is paid regardless if you answer the phone or not, and is directly based on the number of hours and time of day the phone is carried.</p><p>You don't get paid restriction, and can't be called, when you are Sick (or the night after being registered as On Personal Leave) or if you are on Rec Leave (holidays).</p><p>There are two types of payments associated with being oncall. The first is 'phone calls'. The second is 'onsite'. If I am called then I am paid at my rate, or at a bonus of my rate (1.5 or 2.0 x my hourly salary rate [Go Sundays!!! 2x hourly rate, yeah!]) depending on what time of day and what day the phone call is taken. The minimum time to be paid is 1 hour. If I am called any time during that hour, and the call lasts for less than 1 hour from the time the first call started.. it is still 1 hour. Any time over 1 hr is paid to the nearest 15 minutes.</p><p>The second payment type is 'onsite'. If they call me at 3am and it's a problem I can't solve over the phone then I have to come in. Normally, it's a mainframe related problem which requires direct mainframe access. So, they pay for the phone call at 3am, and they pay for me to walk into work at 3:30am. The minimum payment period is 3 hours. It is paid at normal rates for the first hour, and time and a half (1.5 x) for the 2nd and 3rd hours. Except on Sunday when it is always double time (2x hourly rate).</p><p>So, how it normally works out is that the oncall phone is called, on average, 3 times per weekend. That normally costs the business 3 hours of salary, plus the restriction for carrying the phone from End-of-Business each working day to Start-of-Business the next working day, and from Friday COB to Monday SOB. On average, we need to come in once per month. This costs the business 3 hours at time x 1.5 or doubletime. Sometimes, longer as some people can take 4 or 5 hours to solve.</p><p>Restriction is paid by drawing up a daily list of time spent carrying the phone (there is a template for this), and lists all phone calls received / sent (and time taken for each call), and all onsite visits. Every phone call and onsite specifies who called, what they called about, what the problem was, what was done to fix it, and what will be done (if possible) to prevent it from occurring in the future. This 'timesheet' for 'oncall restriction allowance' is signed by the Manager and sent to HR. HR verifies the claim and checks the claim against HR records - personal leave, public holidays, other claims, etc. The claim is put into the finance system and paid.</p><p>They reached a point here, a while back, when they declared that there shall be 'no restriction' and 'no oncall' and that this duty was 'part of the job'. That fell to pieces very quickly when most people undertaking oncall (several teams used to have to have oncall) put down the phones, and in some cases put in to have the oncall phones disconnected.</p><p>You know what happened next. That's right. Systems failed, and had to wait until the next Business Day to fix via Production Support. Problem</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First , some context .
I work in a large dept .
with ~ 500 IT ( in the main IT group.. there are other small fringe IT groups as well ) that writes Applications ( COBOL / Java ) for Mainframe and Midrange .
Some of our systems are true 24/7 , most are 23/7.I work in 'environment operations ' , of which to clarify means that the actual " operations " for mainframe and midrange is supplied as a Service .
So , I 'm not a mainframe console operator , nor do I administrate midrange servers .
I 'm on the other side - support for Applications .
Change management .
Release management .
Environment management .
Production support .
Performance management .
Test support.Several of our duties require for specialists to be onside or oncall outside of business hours .
Where this is required , work provides a mobile phone ( it pays for the phone and calls ) and pays a 'restriction ' which is a percentage paid per hour based on your current salary .
For most people it means about $ 100 for an average week ( 7 days ) of carrying the phone around .
This is paid regardless if you answer the phone or not , and is directly based on the number of hours and time of day the phone is carried.You do n't get paid restriction , and ca n't be called , when you are Sick ( or the night after being registered as On Personal Leave ) or if you are on Rec Leave ( holidays ) .There are two types of payments associated with being oncall .
The first is 'phone calls' .
The second is 'onsite' .
If I am called then I am paid at my rate , or at a bonus of my rate ( 1.5 or 2.0 x my hourly salary rate [ Go Sundays ! ! !
2x hourly rate , yeah !
] ) depending on what time of day and what day the phone call is taken .
The minimum time to be paid is 1 hour .
If I am called any time during that hour , and the call lasts for less than 1 hour from the time the first call started.. it is still 1 hour .
Any time over 1 hr is paid to the nearest 15 minutes.The second payment type is 'onsite' .
If they call me at 3am and it 's a problem I ca n't solve over the phone then I have to come in .
Normally , it 's a mainframe related problem which requires direct mainframe access .
So , they pay for the phone call at 3am , and they pay for me to walk into work at 3 : 30am .
The minimum payment period is 3 hours .
It is paid at normal rates for the first hour , and time and a half ( 1.5 x ) for the 2nd and 3rd hours .
Except on Sunday when it is always double time ( 2x hourly rate ) .So , how it normally works out is that the oncall phone is called , on average , 3 times per weekend .
That normally costs the business 3 hours of salary , plus the restriction for carrying the phone from End-of-Business each working day to Start-of-Business the next working day , and from Friday COB to Monday SOB .
On average , we need to come in once per month .
This costs the business 3 hours at time x 1.5 or doubletime .
Sometimes , longer as some people can take 4 or 5 hours to solve.Restriction is paid by drawing up a daily list of time spent carrying the phone ( there is a template for this ) , and lists all phone calls received / sent ( and time taken for each call ) , and all onsite visits .
Every phone call and onsite specifies who called , what they called about , what the problem was , what was done to fix it , and what will be done ( if possible ) to prevent it from occurring in the future .
This 'timesheet ' for 'oncall restriction allowance ' is signed by the Manager and sent to HR .
HR verifies the claim and checks the claim against HR records - personal leave , public holidays , other claims , etc .
The claim is put into the finance system and paid.They reached a point here , a while back , when they declared that there shall be 'no restriction ' and 'no oncall ' and that this duty was 'part of the job' .
That fell to pieces very quickly when most people undertaking oncall ( several teams used to have to have oncall ) put down the phones , and in some cases put in to have the oncall phones disconnected.You know what happened next .
That 's right .
Systems failed , and had to wait until the next Business Day to fix via Production Support .
Problem</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First, some context.
I work in a large dept.
with ~500 IT (in the main IT group.. there are other small fringe IT groups as well) that writes Applications (COBOL / Java) for Mainframe and Midrange.
Some of our systems are true 24/7, most are 23/7.I work in 'environment operations', of which to clarify means that the actual "operations" for mainframe and midrange is supplied as a Service.
So, I'm not a mainframe console operator, nor do I administrate midrange servers.
I'm on the other side - support for Applications.
Change management.
Release management.
Environment management.
Production support.
Performance management.
Test support.Several of our duties require for specialists to be onside or oncall outside of business hours.
Where this is required, work provides a mobile phone (it pays for the phone and calls) and pays a 'restriction' which is a percentage paid per hour based on your current salary.
For most people it means about $100 for an average week (7 days) of carrying the phone around.
This is paid regardless if you answer the phone or not, and is directly based on the number of hours and time of day the phone is carried.You don't get paid restriction, and can't be called, when you are Sick (or the night after being registered as On Personal Leave) or if you are on Rec Leave (holidays).There are two types of payments associated with being oncall.
The first is 'phone calls'.
The second is 'onsite'.
If I am called then I am paid at my rate, or at a bonus of my rate (1.5 or 2.0 x my hourly salary rate [Go Sundays!!!
2x hourly rate, yeah!
]) depending on what time of day and what day the phone call is taken.
The minimum time to be paid is 1 hour.
If I am called any time during that hour, and the call lasts for less than 1 hour from the time the first call started.. it is still 1 hour.
Any time over 1 hr is paid to the nearest 15 minutes.The second payment type is 'onsite'.
If they call me at 3am and it's a problem I can't solve over the phone then I have to come in.
Normally, it's a mainframe related problem which requires direct mainframe access.
So, they pay for the phone call at 3am, and they pay for me to walk into work at 3:30am.
The minimum payment period is 3 hours.
It is paid at normal rates for the first hour, and time and a half (1.5 x) for the 2nd and 3rd hours.
Except on Sunday when it is always double time (2x hourly rate).So, how it normally works out is that the oncall phone is called, on average, 3 times per weekend.
That normally costs the business 3 hours of salary, plus the restriction for carrying the phone from End-of-Business each working day to Start-of-Business the next working day, and from Friday COB to Monday SOB.
On average, we need to come in once per month.
This costs the business 3 hours at time x 1.5 or doubletime.
Sometimes, longer as some people can take 4 or 5 hours to solve.Restriction is paid by drawing up a daily list of time spent carrying the phone (there is a template for this), and lists all phone calls received / sent (and time taken for each call), and all onsite visits.
Every phone call and onsite specifies who called, what they called about, what the problem was, what was done to fix it, and what will be done (if possible) to prevent it from occurring in the future.
This 'timesheet' for 'oncall restriction allowance' is signed by the Manager and sent to HR.
HR verifies the claim and checks the claim against HR records - personal leave, public holidays, other claims, etc.
The claim is put into the finance system and paid.They reached a point here, a while back, when they declared that there shall be 'no restriction' and 'no oncall' and that this duty was 'part of the job'.
That fell to pieces very quickly when most people undertaking oncall (several teams used to have to have oncall) put down the phones, and in some cases put in to have the oncall phones disconnected.You know what happened next.
That's right.
Systems failed, and had to wait until the next Business Day to fix via Production Support.
Problem</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274020</id>
	<title>My experience</title>
	<author>PuckSR</author>
	<datestamp>1259572980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have seen 3 pay classes for engineers and similar fields(I would count IT).</p><p>1)  Salaried-Salaried engineers get paid X dollars for 40 hours a week.  They frequently work more than 40 hours, but the expectation is that they will work roughly 40 hours.  Any extra time(i.e. to finish a project by deadline) is not compensated.  This is typically only for people who are expected to do all of their work in the office.</p><p>2)  Hourly- Hourly engineers are paid by the hour.  This typically amounts to the same pay as a salaried employee. However, hourly employees are expected to perform non-office work or they are expected to work frequently for longer than 8 hours.  This is frequently the pay rate for engineers who work "on-site" or supervise technicians.  This system compensates them for working overtime.  Pay is "straight time" meaning that they keep earning the same hourly rate no matter how many hours it takes.  This rate is frequent for engineers who travel as part of their work.</p><p>3)  Billable-  These engineers are paid by the hour, but using the standard convention of time-and-a-half, night differential, etc.  This is typically only paid to engineers whose time is being directly billed.  This is done because the employer doesn't actually pay the engineers, the contracting company pays them.  Typically the contracting company is more concerned with the overall time of the project rather than the cost for employees.</p><p>As far as the issue of "being on call":  I am on call, but I am almost never contacted.  If I am "called", I am paid a premium rate.  I would think that some bonus would be part of being "on call" for any employee(i.e. nurses being paid $1-$3 per hour) or a penalty paid for being called.</p><p>So, there are really multiple bits of information that the slashdot community needs:<br>1)  IS this IT employee only being paid salary?<br>2)  Is he being rewarded for taking a call?<br>3)  Is his base pay increased to compensate for the frequent disruption of his schedule?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have seen 3 pay classes for engineers and similar fields ( I would count IT ) .1 ) Salaried-Salaried engineers get paid X dollars for 40 hours a week .
They frequently work more than 40 hours , but the expectation is that they will work roughly 40 hours .
Any extra time ( i.e .
to finish a project by deadline ) is not compensated .
This is typically only for people who are expected to do all of their work in the office.2 ) Hourly- Hourly engineers are paid by the hour .
This typically amounts to the same pay as a salaried employee .
However , hourly employees are expected to perform non-office work or they are expected to work frequently for longer than 8 hours .
This is frequently the pay rate for engineers who work " on-site " or supervise technicians .
This system compensates them for working overtime .
Pay is " straight time " meaning that they keep earning the same hourly rate no matter how many hours it takes .
This rate is frequent for engineers who travel as part of their work.3 ) Billable- These engineers are paid by the hour , but using the standard convention of time-and-a-half , night differential , etc .
This is typically only paid to engineers whose time is being directly billed .
This is done because the employer does n't actually pay the engineers , the contracting company pays them .
Typically the contracting company is more concerned with the overall time of the project rather than the cost for employees.As far as the issue of " being on call " : I am on call , but I am almost never contacted .
If I am " called " , I am paid a premium rate .
I would think that some bonus would be part of being " on call " for any employee ( i.e .
nurses being paid $ 1- $ 3 per hour ) or a penalty paid for being called.So , there are really multiple bits of information that the slashdot community needs : 1 ) IS this IT employee only being paid salary ? 2 ) Is he being rewarded for taking a call ? 3 ) Is his base pay increased to compensate for the frequent disruption of his schedule ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have seen 3 pay classes for engineers and similar fields(I would count IT).1)  Salaried-Salaried engineers get paid X dollars for 40 hours a week.
They frequently work more than 40 hours, but the expectation is that they will work roughly 40 hours.
Any extra time(i.e.
to finish a project by deadline) is not compensated.
This is typically only for people who are expected to do all of their work in the office.2)  Hourly- Hourly engineers are paid by the hour.
This typically amounts to the same pay as a salaried employee.
However, hourly employees are expected to perform non-office work or they are expected to work frequently for longer than 8 hours.
This is frequently the pay rate for engineers who work "on-site" or supervise technicians.
This system compensates them for working overtime.
Pay is "straight time" meaning that they keep earning the same hourly rate no matter how many hours it takes.
This rate is frequent for engineers who travel as part of their work.3)  Billable-  These engineers are paid by the hour, but using the standard convention of time-and-a-half, night differential, etc.
This is typically only paid to engineers whose time is being directly billed.
This is done because the employer doesn't actually pay the engineers, the contracting company pays them.
Typically the contracting company is more concerned with the overall time of the project rather than the cost for employees.As far as the issue of "being on call":  I am on call, but I am almost never contacted.
If I am "called", I am paid a premium rate.
I would think that some bonus would be part of being "on call" for any employee(i.e.
nurses being paid $1-$3 per hour) or a penalty paid for being called.So, there are really multiple bits of information that the slashdot community needs:1)  IS this IT employee only being paid salary?2)  Is he being rewarded for taking a call?3)  Is his base pay increased to compensate for the frequent disruption of his schedule?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278140</id>
	<title>After you've read all these replies think for a</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1259591460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>minute.</p><p>What you'll see is a lot of people telling you what they 'USED TO DO' when they 'USED TO BE ON CALL'.</p><p>I.E.  You're going to hear a bunch of unemployed slashdotters telling you about how you are being treated bad and how you need to tell the guy to fuck off and he's wrong.</p><p>There may just be a reason they are unemployed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>minute.What you 'll see is a lot of people telling you what they 'USED TO DO ' when they 'USED TO BE ON CALL'.I.E .
You 're going to hear a bunch of unemployed slashdotters telling you about how you are being treated bad and how you need to tell the guy to fuck off and he 's wrong.There may just be a reason they are unemployed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>minute.What you'll see is a lot of people telling you what they 'USED TO DO' when they 'USED TO BE ON CALL'.I.E.
You're going to hear a bunch of unemployed slashdotters telling you about how you are being treated bad and how you need to tell the guy to fuck off and he's wrong.There may just be a reason they are unemployed.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30281834</id>
	<title>Available time for fixing a problem</title>
	<author>opk</author>
	<datestamp>1259673840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Under my contract, my employer has to pay me for on call but what they do is have me on call for just 1 hour. If I need to come in, I'm expected to stay till the problem is fixed. It's especially annoying over Christmas because I'm stuck in the local area and can't visit family yet get paid virtually nothing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Under my contract , my employer has to pay me for on call but what they do is have me on call for just 1 hour .
If I need to come in , I 'm expected to stay till the problem is fixed .
It 's especially annoying over Christmas because I 'm stuck in the local area and ca n't visit family yet get paid virtually nothing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Under my contract, my employer has to pay me for on call but what they do is have me on call for just 1 hour.
If I need to come in, I'm expected to stay till the problem is fixed.
It's especially annoying over Christmas because I'm stuck in the local area and can't visit family yet get paid virtually nothing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276036</id>
	<title>Work out a good deal and stick to it</title>
	<author>mistermocha</author>
	<datestamp>1259580660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My last job had a cellphone rotation system where everyone took turns taking home one of the two emergency cellphones and keeping it for two weeks. The period of rotation varied with the size of the staff, which grew (and occasionally shrank) over time. We'd get paid $50 per resolved issue. Those weeks would be challenging because we'd have to stay within arms reach of a computer, but most of the calls that came in were only ten minutes long. Clients didn't see the expense because they subscribed to a general 24x7 support package. Dumb calls were mitigated by stating that after-hours calls were valid for emergencies only. I'd still live a normal life, doing things like going to the store and going on dates and such, and any calls that came while I couldn't touch a computer, I'd tell the client that I'd call back in fifteen minutes.

Okay, all that said... it sucked to have to drag the extra phone around for two weeks, but it was worth it to get that extra check at the end of the session. We'd pretty much be guaranteed at least a couple of after-hours calls each week. A typical two-week session would yield about $400.

Now what does this mean for you? Take some time to think about what's going to make your life liveable when on-call. Do that with a mix of applying conditions to emergency calls, charging back per incident, and reminding your clients that you are a human with a life and may have to call back after you get out of the pooper. Clients are people and will understand that you are a person too and are deserving of a life of your own. Also, applying conditions (e.g., charge per incident) will deter excessive calls.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My last job had a cellphone rotation system where everyone took turns taking home one of the two emergency cellphones and keeping it for two weeks .
The period of rotation varied with the size of the staff , which grew ( and occasionally shrank ) over time .
We 'd get paid $ 50 per resolved issue .
Those weeks would be challenging because we 'd have to stay within arms reach of a computer , but most of the calls that came in were only ten minutes long .
Clients did n't see the expense because they subscribed to a general 24x7 support package .
Dumb calls were mitigated by stating that after-hours calls were valid for emergencies only .
I 'd still live a normal life , doing things like going to the store and going on dates and such , and any calls that came while I could n't touch a computer , I 'd tell the client that I 'd call back in fifteen minutes .
Okay , all that said... it sucked to have to drag the extra phone around for two weeks , but it was worth it to get that extra check at the end of the session .
We 'd pretty much be guaranteed at least a couple of after-hours calls each week .
A typical two-week session would yield about $ 400 .
Now what does this mean for you ?
Take some time to think about what 's going to make your life liveable when on-call .
Do that with a mix of applying conditions to emergency calls , charging back per incident , and reminding your clients that you are a human with a life and may have to call back after you get out of the pooper .
Clients are people and will understand that you are a person too and are deserving of a life of your own .
Also , applying conditions ( e.g. , charge per incident ) will deter excessive calls .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My last job had a cellphone rotation system where everyone took turns taking home one of the two emergency cellphones and keeping it for two weeks.
The period of rotation varied with the size of the staff, which grew (and occasionally shrank) over time.
We'd get paid $50 per resolved issue.
Those weeks would be challenging because we'd have to stay within arms reach of a computer, but most of the calls that came in were only ten minutes long.
Clients didn't see the expense because they subscribed to a general 24x7 support package.
Dumb calls were mitigated by stating that after-hours calls were valid for emergencies only.
I'd still live a normal life, doing things like going to the store and going on dates and such, and any calls that came while I couldn't touch a computer, I'd tell the client that I'd call back in fifteen minutes.
Okay, all that said... it sucked to have to drag the extra phone around for two weeks, but it was worth it to get that extra check at the end of the session.
We'd pretty much be guaranteed at least a couple of after-hours calls each week.
A typical two-week session would yield about $400.
Now what does this mean for you?
Take some time to think about what's going to make your life liveable when on-call.
Do that with a mix of applying conditions to emergency calls, charging back per incident, and reminding your clients that you are a human with a life and may have to call back after you get out of the pooper.
Clients are people and will understand that you are a person too and are deserving of a life of your own.
Also, applying conditions (e.g., charge per incident) will deter excessive calls.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273304</id>
	<title>hospital model...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259613840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, the firefighter mentioned is flawed - he is *at work* waiting for a call to come in.  On call is not at work, but available should the shit hit the fan.</p><p>The hospitals I worked in, the staff that were on call (CAT scan techs, nuke med techs, OR nurses, recovery room nurses, dialysis folks) were paid $1 or $2 per hour just for carrying the beeper.  Should they get called in, they were guaranteed 2 hours of pay, but they had to stay waiting for something to do for that whole time (a CT tech could come in and scan someone in 10 min - but they then had to hang out and wait for the extra hour and 50 minutes).  This pay was at regular pay rates/levels, so night shift differential or holiday differential kicked in, as would over time if their total for the pay week was over 40 hours.</p><p>So... followign this, our poor over worked web master would be paid say $1/hr for totin his beeper or whatever.  If he gets called, he comes in and fixes the issue, gets a minimum of 2 hours of work at his hourly rate, and probably gets over time.  Sounds good.  In reality, he's probably a salaried employee, so over time is out the window, and if he's lucky he may be allowed to leave 15 minutes early on Friday to make up for it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , the firefighter mentioned is flawed - he is * at work * waiting for a call to come in .
On call is not at work , but available should the shit hit the fan.The hospitals I worked in , the staff that were on call ( CAT scan techs , nuke med techs , OR nurses , recovery room nurses , dialysis folks ) were paid $ 1 or $ 2 per hour just for carrying the beeper .
Should they get called in , they were guaranteed 2 hours of pay , but they had to stay waiting for something to do for that whole time ( a CT tech could come in and scan someone in 10 min - but they then had to hang out and wait for the extra hour and 50 minutes ) .
This pay was at regular pay rates/levels , so night shift differential or holiday differential kicked in , as would over time if their total for the pay week was over 40 hours.So... followign this , our poor over worked web master would be paid say $ 1/hr for totin his beeper or whatever .
If he gets called , he comes in and fixes the issue , gets a minimum of 2 hours of work at his hourly rate , and probably gets over time .
Sounds good .
In reality , he 's probably a salaried employee , so over time is out the window , and if he 's lucky he may be allowed to leave 15 minutes early on Friday to make up for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, the firefighter mentioned is flawed - he is *at work* waiting for a call to come in.
On call is not at work, but available should the shit hit the fan.The hospitals I worked in, the staff that were on call (CAT scan techs, nuke med techs, OR nurses, recovery room nurses, dialysis folks) were paid $1 or $2 per hour just for carrying the beeper.
Should they get called in, they were guaranteed 2 hours of pay, but they had to stay waiting for something to do for that whole time (a CT tech could come in and scan someone in 10 min - but they then had to hang out and wait for the extra hour and 50 minutes).
This pay was at regular pay rates/levels, so night shift differential or holiday differential kicked in, as would over time if their total for the pay week was over 40 hours.So... followign this, our poor over worked web master would be paid say $1/hr for totin his beeper or whatever.
If he gets called, he comes in and fixes the issue, gets a minimum of 2 hours of work at his hourly rate, and probably gets over time.
Sounds good.
In reality, he's probably a salaried employee, so over time is out the window, and if he's lucky he may be allowed to leave 15 minutes early on Friday to make up for it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275278</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259578140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What if the IT emergency happens on a computer in a hospital that is necessary to keep a patient alive?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What if the IT emergency happens on a computer in a hospital that is necessary to keep a patient alive ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What if the IT emergency happens on a computer in a hospital that is necessary to keep a patient alive?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274028</id>
	<title>simple model from my experience</title>
	<author>msulis</author>
	<datestamp>1259573040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><tt>On contract, I charge a few bucks an hour, 24/7, for being on call. If a call comes through, my normal hourly rate goes into effect on top of it.<br><br>Working with a company, I've had arrangements in the past where we simply traded on-call time for flexibility, some random afternoons off, etc. If you're working with good people who trust each other (as we did) we all felt like it was fair, and things ran smoothly.<br></tt></htmltext>
<tokenext>On contract , I charge a few bucks an hour , 24/7 , for being on call .
If a call comes through , my normal hourly rate goes into effect on top of it.Working with a company , I 've had arrangements in the past where we simply traded on-call time for flexibility , some random afternoons off , etc .
If you 're working with good people who trust each other ( as we did ) we all felt like it was fair , and things ran smoothly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On contract, I charge a few bucks an hour, 24/7, for being on call.
If a call comes through, my normal hourly rate goes into effect on top of it.Working with a company, I've had arrangements in the past where we simply traded on-call time for flexibility, some random afternoons off, etc.
If you're working with good people who trust each other (as we did) we all felt like it was fair, and things ran smoothly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278064</id>
	<title>As a person whos oncall...</title>
	<author>mprindle</author>
	<datestamp>1259590860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I get the on call service once every 6 - 7 weeks or so and hold it for a week.  We don't get paid anything for being oncall, but we do get OT for after hours and Saturdays.  On Sundays and holidays we get DT.  During the week the service may call once, but it's rarely more than twice.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I get the on call service once every 6 - 7 weeks or so and hold it for a week .
We do n't get paid anything for being oncall , but we do get OT for after hours and Saturdays .
On Sundays and holidays we get DT .
During the week the service may call once , but it 's rarely more than twice .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I get the on call service once every 6 - 7 weeks or so and hold it for a week.
We don't get paid anything for being oncall, but we do get OT for after hours and Saturdays.
On Sundays and holidays we get DT.
During the week the service may call once, but it's rarely more than twice.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30277260</id>
	<title>Carry the pager for free... charge for calls</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259585580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd carry the cell or pager for free - hell, I've had one bolted on for so long they'll need to do surgery to remove it when I die - that's IT.  But if it rings and I'm hourly? I'm charging you somehow...</p><p>If it's something small - I might hang on to it until I do something bigger, then just make the bigger thing cost a bit more - so I look like the good guy - not always charging you<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p><p>If it's something larger, you're getting a bill, the next day.</p><p>Train the customer for how you want to bill.  If they don't pay, then stop answering the pager when shit hits the fan.  Come in the next day and fix it.</p><p>While they're screaming about it, ask about the outstanding invoices.  Take the money.  Blame the problem on faulty cell or pager coverage.  Feign ignorance.  You'll get paid from then on.</p><p>If you don't - then fuck em.  Find a new customer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd carry the cell or pager for free - hell , I 've had one bolted on for so long they 'll need to do surgery to remove it when I die - that 's IT .
But if it rings and I 'm hourly ?
I 'm charging you somehow...If it 's something small - I might hang on to it until I do something bigger , then just make the bigger thing cost a bit more - so I look like the good guy - not always charging you : - ) If it 's something larger , you 're getting a bill , the next day.Train the customer for how you want to bill .
If they do n't pay , then stop answering the pager when shit hits the fan .
Come in the next day and fix it.While they 're screaming about it , ask about the outstanding invoices .
Take the money .
Blame the problem on faulty cell or pager coverage .
Feign ignorance .
You 'll get paid from then on.If you do n't - then fuck em .
Find a new customer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd carry the cell or pager for free - hell, I've had one bolted on for so long they'll need to do surgery to remove it when I die - that's IT.
But if it rings and I'm hourly?
I'm charging you somehow...If it's something small - I might hang on to it until I do something bigger, then just make the bigger thing cost a bit more - so I look like the good guy - not always charging you :-)If it's something larger, you're getting a bill, the next day.Train the customer for how you want to bill.
If they don't pay, then stop answering the pager when shit hits the fan.
Come in the next day and fix it.While they're screaming about it, ask about the outstanding invoices.
Take the money.
Blame the problem on faulty cell or pager coverage.
Feign ignorance.
You'll get paid from then on.If you don't - then fuck em.
Find a new customer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273764</id>
	<title>Overtime isn't paid?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259572080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't understand this: it seems to be a US thing, but we don't get it in Australia and this confuses me.</p><p>How is it that salaried employees do not get paid overtime in the US?</p><p>In much of the world, a salary is paid for a set period (usually 40 hours), and time over that earns overtime pay regardless. You can't be required to do overtime: but if you choose to do it you get paid a minimum of time-and-a-half.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't understand this : it seems to be a US thing , but we do n't get it in Australia and this confuses me.How is it that salaried employees do not get paid overtime in the US ? In much of the world , a salary is paid for a set period ( usually 40 hours ) , and time over that earns overtime pay regardless .
You ca n't be required to do overtime : but if you choose to do it you get paid a minimum of time-and-a-half .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't understand this: it seems to be a US thing, but we don't get it in Australia and this confuses me.How is it that salaried employees do not get paid overtime in the US?In much of the world, a salary is paid for a set period (usually 40 hours), and time over that earns overtime pay regardless.
You can't be required to do overtime: but if you choose to do it you get paid a minimum of time-and-a-half.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276986</id>
	<title>Re:Firefighting</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259584320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not always.  Most stations I have seen use 24 hours on / 48 hours off, and you could be on call as well.  If you are called to the station for manpower, you get a minimum of 2 hours of pay.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not always .
Most stations I have seen use 24 hours on / 48 hours off , and you could be on call as well .
If you are called to the station for manpower , you get a minimum of 2 hours of pay .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not always.
Most stations I have seen use 24 hours on / 48 hours off, and you could be on call as well.
If you are called to the station for manpower, you get a minimum of 2 hours of pay.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273322</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273634</id>
	<title>8 for 1</title>
	<author>aepervius</author>
	<datestamp>1259571660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Here around (germany) they pay me 1 hour for every 8 hour on call, if NOTHING happen. If something happen, then I get the normal pay for that time (6h-20h), double pay otherwise, triple pay for sunday or holiday day.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here around ( germany ) they pay me 1 hour for every 8 hour on call , if NOTHING happen .
If something happen , then I get the normal pay for that time ( 6h-20h ) , double pay otherwise , triple pay for sunday or holiday day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here around (germany) they pay me 1 hour for every 8 hour on call, if NOTHING happen.
If something happen, then I get the normal pay for that time (6h-20h), double pay otherwise, triple pay for sunday or holiday day.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273488</id>
	<title>Simple answer...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259614440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"No."</p><p>I will not allow my home life to be subject to the whims of my employer. If that gets me fired from my job, so be it. Let them find someone desperate and/or spineless enough to trade away the entirety of their private life for a paycheck.</p><p>I understand completely about the need to support yourself and/or your family, and that doing so often requires great personal sacrifices. But at some point you have to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough. Personally, I would move in with my in-laws and ride a bicycle to work rather than allow an employer to dictate the terms of my private life. Some things are simply non-negotiable.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" No .
" I will not allow my home life to be subject to the whims of my employer .
If that gets me fired from my job , so be it .
Let them find someone desperate and/or spineless enough to trade away the entirety of their private life for a paycheck.I understand completely about the need to support yourself and/or your family , and that doing so often requires great personal sacrifices .
But at some point you have to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough .
Personally , I would move in with my in-laws and ride a bicycle to work rather than allow an employer to dictate the terms of my private life .
Some things are simply non-negotiable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"No.
"I will not allow my home life to be subject to the whims of my employer.
If that gets me fired from my job, so be it.
Let them find someone desperate and/or spineless enough to trade away the entirety of their private life for a paycheck.I understand completely about the need to support yourself and/or your family, and that doing so often requires great personal sacrifices.
But at some point you have to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough.
Personally, I would move in with my in-laws and ride a bicycle to work rather than allow an employer to dictate the terms of my private life.
Some things are simply non-negotiable.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276160</id>
	<title>If they insist</title>
	<author>SnarfQuest</author>
	<datestamp>1259581020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If they insist on using that firefighter analogy, then you should bring a large fire axe with you whenever they call you in. They insisted that you need to bring it in order to get paid, didn't they?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If they insist on using that firefighter analogy , then you should bring a large fire axe with you whenever they call you in .
They insisted that you need to bring it in order to get paid , did n't they ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If they insist on using that firefighter analogy, then you should bring a large fire axe with you whenever they call you in.
They insisted that you need to bring it in order to get paid, didn't they?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30289898</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259666340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not quite analogous...the way I see it, the client is getting "peace of mind" knowing that if someothing breaks in the wee hours of the night, there is someone available to fix it. They should pay for this "peace of mind" - it's akin to insurance.</p><p>On the nurse example, it's interesting to note that the nurse is compensated by the hospital who want to minimize costs due to her pay, while the patient wants to maximize the time the nurse is around. The patient however does not get to decide how many nurses will be on call at any one time, but would prefer to have as many as possible.</p><p>Our friend here is working directly for the client and should be able to set the expectation that should they want to be "covered" during off-hours they will need to pay for that luxury. Else they get coverage during the 40 hours...and that's it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not quite analogous...the way I see it , the client is getting " peace of mind " knowing that if someothing breaks in the wee hours of the night , there is someone available to fix it .
They should pay for this " peace of mind " - it 's akin to insurance.On the nurse example , it 's interesting to note that the nurse is compensated by the hospital who want to minimize costs due to her pay , while the patient wants to maximize the time the nurse is around .
The patient however does not get to decide how many nurses will be on call at any one time , but would prefer to have as many as possible.Our friend here is working directly for the client and should be able to set the expectation that should they want to be " covered " during off-hours they will need to pay for that luxury .
Else they get coverage during the 40 hours...and that 's it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not quite analogous...the way I see it, the client is getting "peace of mind" knowing that if someothing breaks in the wee hours of the night, there is someone available to fix it.
They should pay for this "peace of mind" - it's akin to insurance.On the nurse example, it's interesting to note that the nurse is compensated by the hospital who want to minimize costs due to her pay, while the patient wants to maximize the time the nurse is around.
The patient however does not get to decide how many nurses will be on call at any one time, but would prefer to have as many as possible.Our friend here is working directly for the client and should be able to set the expectation that should they want to be "covered" during off-hours they will need to pay for that luxury.
Else they get coverage during the 40 hours...and that's it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30277636</id>
	<title>Get paid by time</title>
	<author>boddhisatva</author>
	<datestamp>1259587740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>First of all, there is no such thing as a "permanent" job anymore. If you think a salary gives you some kind of security, you're nuts. When the pager goes off or the phone rings, the meter is running. Minimum 15 minutes, 15 minute increments. And for God's sake have someone doing 1st level support. "That's not a database error, it's a network problem. Call this number..."</htmltext>
<tokenext>First of all , there is no such thing as a " permanent " job anymore .
If you think a salary gives you some kind of security , you 're nuts .
When the pager goes off or the phone rings , the meter is running .
Minimum 15 minutes , 15 minute increments .
And for God 's sake have someone doing 1st level support .
" That 's not a database error , it 's a network problem .
Call this number... "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First of all, there is no such thing as a "permanent" job anymore.
If you think a salary gives you some kind of security, you're nuts.
When the pager goes off or the phone rings, the meter is running.
Minimum 15 minutes, 15 minute increments.
And for God's sake have someone doing 1st level support.
"That's not a database error, it's a network problem.
Call this number..."</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274722</id>
	<title>Annie's Answer is not that bad</title>
	<author>Slashdot Parent</author>
	<datestamp>1259575620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the questioner is an independent contractor, it's up to him to negotiate compensation with his employer.  And that includes how to handle time spent on-call.  There is nobody to police whether or not businesses treat their independent contractors fairly, whatever your concept of "fair" may be.  In fact, one of the items on the IRS's 20 factor test to determine if a worker is an employee or a contractor is that a contractor should be able to lose money on the deal, whereas an employee cannot.</p><p>Of course, that is a convenient segue into whether or not this guy is actually an independent contractor.  I've seen these arrangements before, and it is exceedingly rare to find one that would actually pass muster with the IRS.  Typically, the "contractor" works full time for the company, can't set his own hours, doesn't use his own equipment, can't decide how the work is performed, can't hire subs, and doesn't offer his services to the general public.  Companies who convert this type of employee to independent contractor status are opening themselves up to exposure that the IRS might reclassify (read: correctly classify) this contractor as an employee and demand back payroll taxes.  The contractor could then take the employer to court, with that IRS ruling in hand, and argue that he is entitled to full benefits and to compensation for the time he was wrongfully denied benefits.</p><p>So now that the contractor is really an employee, we can talk about the subject at hand.  I think anyone would agree that the effort expended for an hour worked is greater than the effort expended for an hour on call, and that the effort expended for an hour on-call is greater than the effort expended for an hour of leisure time.  Therefore, it seems fair to me that time spent on-call should be compensated, but at a lower level than time spent on-duty.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the questioner is an independent contractor , it 's up to him to negotiate compensation with his employer .
And that includes how to handle time spent on-call .
There is nobody to police whether or not businesses treat their independent contractors fairly , whatever your concept of " fair " may be .
In fact , one of the items on the IRS 's 20 factor test to determine if a worker is an employee or a contractor is that a contractor should be able to lose money on the deal , whereas an employee can not.Of course , that is a convenient segue into whether or not this guy is actually an independent contractor .
I 've seen these arrangements before , and it is exceedingly rare to find one that would actually pass muster with the IRS .
Typically , the " contractor " works full time for the company , ca n't set his own hours , does n't use his own equipment , ca n't decide how the work is performed , ca n't hire subs , and does n't offer his services to the general public .
Companies who convert this type of employee to independent contractor status are opening themselves up to exposure that the IRS might reclassify ( read : correctly classify ) this contractor as an employee and demand back payroll taxes .
The contractor could then take the employer to court , with that IRS ruling in hand , and argue that he is entitled to full benefits and to compensation for the time he was wrongfully denied benefits.So now that the contractor is really an employee , we can talk about the subject at hand .
I think anyone would agree that the effort expended for an hour worked is greater than the effort expended for an hour on call , and that the effort expended for an hour on-call is greater than the effort expended for an hour of leisure time .
Therefore , it seems fair to me that time spent on-call should be compensated , but at a lower level than time spent on-duty .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the questioner is an independent contractor, it's up to him to negotiate compensation with his employer.
And that includes how to handle time spent on-call.
There is nobody to police whether or not businesses treat their independent contractors fairly, whatever your concept of "fair" may be.
In fact, one of the items on the IRS's 20 factor test to determine if a worker is an employee or a contractor is that a contractor should be able to lose money on the deal, whereas an employee cannot.Of course, that is a convenient segue into whether or not this guy is actually an independent contractor.
I've seen these arrangements before, and it is exceedingly rare to find one that would actually pass muster with the IRS.
Typically, the "contractor" works full time for the company, can't set his own hours, doesn't use his own equipment, can't decide how the work is performed, can't hire subs, and doesn't offer his services to the general public.
Companies who convert this type of employee to independent contractor status are opening themselves up to exposure that the IRS might reclassify (read: correctly classify) this contractor as an employee and demand back payroll taxes.
The contractor could then take the employer to court, with that IRS ruling in hand, and argue that he is entitled to full benefits and to compensation for the time he was wrongfully denied benefits.So now that the contractor is really an employee, we can talk about the subject at hand.
I think anyone would agree that the effort expended for an hour worked is greater than the effort expended for an hour on call, and that the effort expended for an hour on-call is greater than the effort expended for an hour of leisure time.
Therefore, it seems fair to me that time spent on-call should be compensated, but at a lower level than time spent on-duty.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273284</id>
	<title>NOT GONNA DO IT!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259613780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I tried this once, but I hated being on a leash so much that I quickly found another job. It just wasn't worth my sanity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I tried this once , but I hated being on a leash so much that I quickly found another job .
It just was n't worth my sanity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I tried this once, but I hated being on a leash so much that I quickly found another job.
It just wasn't worth my sanity.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273446</id>
	<title>Here is where the lawyer's analogy fails.</title>
	<author>wcrowe</author>
	<datestamp>1259614320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Firefighters aren't just "hanging around the firehouse" when they're not putting out fires.  They spend that time maintaining equipment, training, performing building inspections, and a lot of other duties.  I'm sure municipal policies vary, but I'm certain that many firefighters work regular shifts, and when an emergency call extends beyond their regular shift they are paid overtime.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Firefighters are n't just " hanging around the firehouse " when they 're not putting out fires .
They spend that time maintaining equipment , training , performing building inspections , and a lot of other duties .
I 'm sure municipal policies vary , but I 'm certain that many firefighters work regular shifts , and when an emergency call extends beyond their regular shift they are paid overtime .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Firefighters aren't just "hanging around the firehouse" when they're not putting out fires.
They spend that time maintaining equipment, training, performing building inspections, and a lot of other duties.
I'm sure municipal policies vary, but I'm certain that many firefighters work regular shifts, and when an emergency call extends beyond their regular shift they are paid overtime.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274374</id>
	<title>Re:The point is that your time is not your own</title>
	<author>Belial6</author>
	<datestamp>1259574240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>At least here in California, it cannot be officially recognized, as 'Comp Time' is not legal.  If you are hourly, you must be paid for time worked.  If you are salary, then you are paid for the position, so taking a day off isn't 'Comp Time', since you are not technically obliged to be there.
<br> <br>
I am a bit surprised that 'on call' work has not been brought up as a class action lawsuit.  Certainly, waiting to answer a phone is work, and thus should legally be compensated as work.</htmltext>
<tokenext>At least here in California , it can not be officially recognized , as 'Comp Time ' is not legal .
If you are hourly , you must be paid for time worked .
If you are salary , then you are paid for the position , so taking a day off is n't 'Comp Time ' , since you are not technically obliged to be there .
I am a bit surprised that 'on call ' work has not been brought up as a class action lawsuit .
Certainly , waiting to answer a phone is work , and thus should legally be compensated as work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At least here in California, it cannot be officially recognized, as 'Comp Time' is not legal.
If you are hourly, you must be paid for time worked.
If you are salary, then you are paid for the position, so taking a day off isn't 'Comp Time', since you are not technically obliged to be there.
I am a bit surprised that 'on call' work has not been brought up as a class action lawsuit.
Certainly, waiting to answer a phone is work, and thus should legally be compensated as work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278306</id>
	<title>Re:NOT GONNA DO IT!</title>
	<author>LordLimecat</author>
	<datestamp>1259592960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Which seems like the best solution of all that have been proposed so far.  People DO have a choice in this...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Which seems like the best solution of all that have been proposed so far .
People DO have a choice in this.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Which seems like the best solution of all that have been proposed so far.
People DO have a choice in this...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273284</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274756</id>
	<title>Re:Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259575740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was previously not paid for "on call time" i was salaried and expected to work weekends and after hours as needed for basically free, it sucked. They would float me a day off here and there if I did a server upgrade over the weekend or something like that but it always worked out in the companies favor.</p><p>I work for a hospital now and we share a 3 week rotation, I get paid basically 1hr for every 8 on call, and time and a half for any calls I take during that week, minimum of 1hr. Plus that doubles for any Holidays I take call for. Yeah its nice to sit at home and play video games and get paid, only problem is I can't drink while I'm on call.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was previously not paid for " on call time " i was salaried and expected to work weekends and after hours as needed for basically free , it sucked .
They would float me a day off here and there if I did a server upgrade over the weekend or something like that but it always worked out in the companies favor.I work for a hospital now and we share a 3 week rotation , I get paid basically 1hr for every 8 on call , and time and a half for any calls I take during that week , minimum of 1hr .
Plus that doubles for any Holidays I take call for .
Yeah its nice to sit at home and play video games and get paid , only problem is I ca n't drink while I 'm on call .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was previously not paid for "on call time" i was salaried and expected to work weekends and after hours as needed for basically free, it sucked.
They would float me a day off here and there if I did a server upgrade over the weekend or something like that but it always worked out in the companies favor.I work for a hospital now and we share a 3 week rotation, I get paid basically 1hr for every 8 on call, and time and a half for any calls I take during that week, minimum of 1hr.
Plus that doubles for any Holidays I take call for.
Yeah its nice to sit at home and play video games and get paid, only problem is I can't drink while I'm on call.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274626</id>
	<title>Re:Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>N1ck0</author>
	<datestamp>1259575260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My company has a pretty simple setup.   On Call Primary - $300/wk, On Call Secondary - $150/wk. Flat fee.<br>1. If you are forced to work more then 24 hours straight the secondary takes over for 12 hours.<br>2. If you have work more then an additional 40 hours per week, you get equal 'comp. time' (Ext Paid Vacation time)<br>3. If you were not on call and have to fill in for a last min change/emergency you get whatever time in 'comp. time'<br>4. During Scheduled Maintenance (min 1 week advanced warning) the primary and secondary are expected to be logged in and monitoring<br>5. You get comp time working more then 2 hours of maintenance per week while not on-call.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My company has a pretty simple setup .
On Call Primary - $ 300/wk , On Call Secondary - $ 150/wk .
Flat fee.1 .
If you are forced to work more then 24 hours straight the secondary takes over for 12 hours.2 .
If you have work more then an additional 40 hours per week , you get equal 'comp .
time ' ( Ext Paid Vacation time ) 3 .
If you were not on call and have to fill in for a last min change/emergency you get whatever time in 'comp .
time'4. During Scheduled Maintenance ( min 1 week advanced warning ) the primary and secondary are expected to be logged in and monitoring5 .
You get comp time working more then 2 hours of maintenance per week while not on-call .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My company has a pretty simple setup.
On Call Primary - $300/wk, On Call Secondary - $150/wk.
Flat fee.1.
If you are forced to work more then 24 hours straight the secondary takes over for 12 hours.2.
If you have work more then an additional 40 hours per week, you get equal 'comp.
time' (Ext Paid Vacation time)3.
If you were not on call and have to fill in for a last min change/emergency you get whatever time in 'comp.
time'4. During Scheduled Maintenance (min 1 week advanced warning) the primary and secondary are expected to be logged in and monitoring5.
You get comp time working more then 2 hours of maintenance per week while not on-call.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274902</id>
	<title>You are being paid</title>
	<author>DreamArcher</author>
	<datestamp>1259576460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The conditions of the job are known before you take it. You either accept them or you don't. If you accept then you are being paid for being on call.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The conditions of the job are known before you take it .
You either accept them or you do n't .
If you accept then you are being paid for being on call .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The conditions of the job are known before you take it.
You either accept them or you don't.
If you accept then you are being paid for being on call.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275252</id>
	<title>Re:He's not really "on call"</title>
	<author>m509272</author>
	<datestamp>1259578020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's an incredibly ridiculous example.  There are dozens of generic plumbers, electricians, etc that are available and you as the consumer have a choice just as they do.  They can decline your offer to employ them for no reason at all because they generally have enough work since they usually have 1000s of potential employers.  You ever work with these people.  We'll be there tomorrow, no show, BS excuse, Tuesday no show, had an emergency, etc.</p><p>This guys position is absolutely nothing like that.  My scenario is simple, you call me off hours, that's a 1/2 day minimum because chances are you interrupted my sleep, interrupted my weekend or interrupted my vacation.  You didn't have to pay someone to work those hours while I'm not there so that's your savings.  Large companies employ people around the world for coverage or have 2nd and 3rd shifts.  Small companies can simply pay someone a major premium for a rare occurrence instead of employing extra personnel.  You can use your imagination how often I get called.  Practically never.  Those critical problems suddenly become not so critical.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's an incredibly ridiculous example .
There are dozens of generic plumbers , electricians , etc that are available and you as the consumer have a choice just as they do .
They can decline your offer to employ them for no reason at all because they generally have enough work since they usually have 1000s of potential employers .
You ever work with these people .
We 'll be there tomorrow , no show , BS excuse , Tuesday no show , had an emergency , etc.This guys position is absolutely nothing like that .
My scenario is simple , you call me off hours , that 's a 1/2 day minimum because chances are you interrupted my sleep , interrupted my weekend or interrupted my vacation .
You did n't have to pay someone to work those hours while I 'm not there so that 's your savings .
Large companies employ people around the world for coverage or have 2nd and 3rd shifts .
Small companies can simply pay someone a major premium for a rare occurrence instead of employing extra personnel .
You can use your imagination how often I get called .
Practically never .
Those critical problems suddenly become not so critical .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's an incredibly ridiculous example.
There are dozens of generic plumbers, electricians, etc that are available and you as the consumer have a choice just as they do.
They can decline your offer to employ them for no reason at all because they generally have enough work since they usually have 1000s of potential employers.
You ever work with these people.
We'll be there tomorrow, no show, BS excuse, Tuesday no show, had an emergency, etc.This guys position is absolutely nothing like that.
My scenario is simple, you call me off hours, that's a 1/2 day minimum because chances are you interrupted my sleep, interrupted my weekend or interrupted my vacation.
You didn't have to pay someone to work those hours while I'm not there so that's your savings.
Large companies employ people around the world for coverage or have 2nd and 3rd shifts.
Small companies can simply pay someone a major premium for a rare occurrence instead of employing extra personnel.
You can use your imagination how often I get called.
Practically never.
Those critical problems suddenly become not so critical.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273716</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>KraftDinner</author>
	<datestamp>1259571900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think you'll find many businesses do though.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think you 'll find many businesses do though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think you'll find many businesses do though.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273412</id>
	<title>As anon coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259614200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Radio engineer here.<br>I get paid OT for on call emergencies.<br>I'm salaried to take care of the rest of the deal.<br>Guess which bit Corporate is trying to take away?</p><p>Posted as anonymous coward for obvious reasons.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Radio engineer here.I get paid OT for on call emergencies.I 'm salaried to take care of the rest of the deal.Guess which bit Corporate is trying to take away ? Posted as anonymous coward for obvious reasons .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Radio engineer here.I get paid OT for on call emergencies.I'm salaried to take care of the rest of the deal.Guess which bit Corporate is trying to take away?Posted as anonymous coward for obvious reasons.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273244</id>
	<title>Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>Aliencow</author>
	<datestamp>1259613660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're basically hooked to a pager, which means you need to be near a phone, and usually near a computer with internet connectivity.</p><p>I don't work in operations, but everyone in decent places I've worked at did get paid around 3hours of salary per 24hours of wearing the pager. Then it was a minimum of 1 hour per "call" (more like issue, as it could involve multiple calls) except for the first one of the day which was included in the 3hours.</p><p>That meant that in a typical week you'd get paid for (24*7)-40 hours of "pager duty", which amounted to 16 hours of salary, so 2 days extra. That's pretty good, assuming you're on a decent rotation and don't have to be THE guy doing it every single week.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're basically hooked to a pager , which means you need to be near a phone , and usually near a computer with internet connectivity.I do n't work in operations , but everyone in decent places I 've worked at did get paid around 3hours of salary per 24hours of wearing the pager .
Then it was a minimum of 1 hour per " call " ( more like issue , as it could involve multiple calls ) except for the first one of the day which was included in the 3hours.That meant that in a typical week you 'd get paid for ( 24 * 7 ) -40 hours of " pager duty " , which amounted to 16 hours of salary , so 2 days extra .
That 's pretty good , assuming you 're on a decent rotation and do n't have to be THE guy doing it every single week .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're basically hooked to a pager, which means you need to be near a phone, and usually near a computer with internet connectivity.I don't work in operations, but everyone in decent places I've worked at did get paid around 3hours of salary per 24hours of wearing the pager.
Then it was a minimum of 1 hour per "call" (more like issue, as it could involve multiple calls) except for the first one of the day which was included in the 3hours.That meant that in a typical week you'd get paid for (24*7)-40 hours of "pager duty", which amounted to 16 hours of salary, so 2 days extra.
That's pretty good, assuming you're on a decent rotation and don't have to be THE guy doing it every single week.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273438</id>
	<title>Spent 5 years not being paid for on call...</title>
	<author>syousef</author>
	<datestamp>1259614260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...and it's just a company's way of being cheap. (They were charging clients for maintenance after all) When I'm on call at my current job I'm paid for it. Not a huge amount of money. Nothing that's going to make me rich, but it is some token compensation for the disruption to your life. Calls are infrequent, but I have to stay 15 minutes from my computer. If I am called and can fix it quickly I'm not paid anything above the on call rate. If it takes more than half an hour I get the usual overtime. It's a fair and reasonable compromise for staying 15 minutes from my computer. In theory I could be more mobile if I bought wireless broadband but as things stand it means I stay home when I'm on call.</p><p>What this Annie Fisher lady needs is someone calling her randomly 0-3 times a night for 2 weeks and being told she isn't allowed to go out. She'd soon change her tune.</p><p>I don't know how it works in the US, but here in Australia I believe (non-volunteer) fire fighters get paid to be at work regular hours. They aren't paid just for callouts, and they don't tend to "hang around the firestation" in their off duty hours. If US firefighters are only paid per fire that's not right.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...and it 's just a company 's way of being cheap .
( They were charging clients for maintenance after all ) When I 'm on call at my current job I 'm paid for it .
Not a huge amount of money .
Nothing that 's going to make me rich , but it is some token compensation for the disruption to your life .
Calls are infrequent , but I have to stay 15 minutes from my computer .
If I am called and can fix it quickly I 'm not paid anything above the on call rate .
If it takes more than half an hour I get the usual overtime .
It 's a fair and reasonable compromise for staying 15 minutes from my computer .
In theory I could be more mobile if I bought wireless broadband but as things stand it means I stay home when I 'm on call.What this Annie Fisher lady needs is someone calling her randomly 0-3 times a night for 2 weeks and being told she is n't allowed to go out .
She 'd soon change her tune.I do n't know how it works in the US , but here in Australia I believe ( non-volunteer ) fire fighters get paid to be at work regular hours .
They are n't paid just for callouts , and they do n't tend to " hang around the firestation " in their off duty hours .
If US firefighters are only paid per fire that 's not right .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...and it's just a company's way of being cheap.
(They were charging clients for maintenance after all) When I'm on call at my current job I'm paid for it.
Not a huge amount of money.
Nothing that's going to make me rich, but it is some token compensation for the disruption to your life.
Calls are infrequent, but I have to stay 15 minutes from my computer.
If I am called and can fix it quickly I'm not paid anything above the on call rate.
If it takes more than half an hour I get the usual overtime.
It's a fair and reasonable compromise for staying 15 minutes from my computer.
In theory I could be more mobile if I bought wireless broadband but as things stand it means I stay home when I'm on call.What this Annie Fisher lady needs is someone calling her randomly 0-3 times a night for 2 weeks and being told she isn't allowed to go out.
She'd soon change her tune.I don't know how it works in the US, but here in Australia I believe (non-volunteer) fire fighters get paid to be at work regular hours.
They aren't paid just for callouts, and they don't tend to "hang around the firestation" in their off duty hours.
If US firefighters are only paid per fire that's not right.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274164</id>
	<title>Nothing is free</title>
	<author>York the Mysterious</author>
	<datestamp>1259573460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I feel ripped off getting paid 25\% for oncall.  Oncall sucks and your employer should know that.  True fast response time requires you basically stay at home during your on call time.  I work in a NOC and do a 12 hour NOC schedule.  I get woken up several times a night and the company understands it's a pain.  They pay us as we should.  If you're expected to work they should expect to pay.  Nothing is free.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I feel ripped off getting paid 25 \ % for oncall .
Oncall sucks and your employer should know that .
True fast response time requires you basically stay at home during your on call time .
I work in a NOC and do a 12 hour NOC schedule .
I get woken up several times a night and the company understands it 's a pain .
They pay us as we should .
If you 're expected to work they should expect to pay .
Nothing is free .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I feel ripped off getting paid 25\% for oncall.
Oncall sucks and your employer should know that.
True fast response time requires you basically stay at home during your on call time.
I work in a NOC and do a 12 hour NOC schedule.
I get woken up several times a night and the company understands it's a pain.
They pay us as we should.
If you're expected to work they should expect to pay.
Nothing is free.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30275210</id>
	<title>In an ideal world? Nobody on call.</title>
	<author>bzzfzz</author>
	<datestamp>1259577780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In an ideal world, none of the techs are on call because there are sufficient scheduled staff on site to deal with any problems.  Larger organizations approach this, simply because beyond a certain point the "on call" person is busy enough that the model doesn't work anymore and you have to switch to shifts.
<p>
Small companies I've worked at have used a number of strategies to make this fair.  One way to do it is limit service hours.  For a while we limited service hours to 7 am to 7 pm, and if customers called outside that the expectation was that they'd get a call at 7 am the next day.  I have also seen best-effort systems where there is no formal SLA, and several people get paged at once if there's trouble, which works in some cases.
</p><p>
The problem with being on call is that, if you have a life, you have commitments and do stuff that you can't just unwind in 10 minutes.  Golf, fishing trip, reffing a kid's softball game, community orchestra rehearsal, picking up kids on the other side of town.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In an ideal world , none of the techs are on call because there are sufficient scheduled staff on site to deal with any problems .
Larger organizations approach this , simply because beyond a certain point the " on call " person is busy enough that the model does n't work anymore and you have to switch to shifts .
Small companies I 've worked at have used a number of strategies to make this fair .
One way to do it is limit service hours .
For a while we limited service hours to 7 am to 7 pm , and if customers called outside that the expectation was that they 'd get a call at 7 am the next day .
I have also seen best-effort systems where there is no formal SLA , and several people get paged at once if there 's trouble , which works in some cases .
The problem with being on call is that , if you have a life , you have commitments and do stuff that you ca n't just unwind in 10 minutes .
Golf , fishing trip , reffing a kid 's softball game , community orchestra rehearsal , picking up kids on the other side of town .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In an ideal world, none of the techs are on call because there are sufficient scheduled staff on site to deal with any problems.
Larger organizations approach this, simply because beyond a certain point the "on call" person is busy enough that the model doesn't work anymore and you have to switch to shifts.
Small companies I've worked at have used a number of strategies to make this fair.
One way to do it is limit service hours.
For a while we limited service hours to 7 am to 7 pm, and if customers called outside that the expectation was that they'd get a call at 7 am the next day.
I have also seen best-effort systems where there is no formal SLA, and several people get paged at once if there's trouble, which works in some cases.
The problem with being on call is that, if you have a life, you have commitments and do stuff that you can't just unwind in 10 minutes.
Golf, fishing trip, reffing a kid's softball game, community orchestra rehearsal, picking up kids on the other side of town.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273500</id>
	<title>Independent Contractor has Expectations Issues</title>
	<author>mpapet</author>
	<datestamp>1259614500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1. She's an independent webmaster.</p><p>That means she ultimately accepts the billing rates and service conditions.</p><p>If you want to be a cowboy webmaster, part of your burden/joy is defining the scope of work and setting a price for that scope of work.</p><p>There are plenty of customers willing to haggle to the last dollar, be eternally late paying only after many calls trying to get your AR current and demanding services that aren't explicitly spelled-out as 'free.'  In order not to feel exploited, the cowboy webmaster needs to better manage her expectations and the client's expectations.  I'm not saying 'suck it up' or 'screw the customer.'</p><p>This is an opportunity for the webmaster to work out some service-level tiers and related pricing.  She'll have to take her work up a notch when she's servicing the customer, but figure out what that looks like in the form of an SLA.  If she doesn't want to do this, then maybe being a cowboy webmaster isn't right for her.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
She 's an independent webmaster.That means she ultimately accepts the billing rates and service conditions.If you want to be a cowboy webmaster , part of your burden/joy is defining the scope of work and setting a price for that scope of work.There are plenty of customers willing to haggle to the last dollar , be eternally late paying only after many calls trying to get your AR current and demanding services that are n't explicitly spelled-out as 'free .
' In order not to feel exploited , the cowboy webmaster needs to better manage her expectations and the client 's expectations .
I 'm not saying 'suck it up ' or 'screw the customer .
'This is an opportunity for the webmaster to work out some service-level tiers and related pricing .
She 'll have to take her work up a notch when she 's servicing the customer , but figure out what that looks like in the form of an SLA .
If she does n't want to do this , then maybe being a cowboy webmaster is n't right for her .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
She's an independent webmaster.That means she ultimately accepts the billing rates and service conditions.If you want to be a cowboy webmaster, part of your burden/joy is defining the scope of work and setting a price for that scope of work.There are plenty of customers willing to haggle to the last dollar, be eternally late paying only after many calls trying to get your AR current and demanding services that aren't explicitly spelled-out as 'free.
'  In order not to feel exploited, the cowboy webmaster needs to better manage her expectations and the client's expectations.
I'm not saying 'suck it up' or 'screw the customer.
'This is an opportunity for the webmaster to work out some service-level tiers and related pricing.
She'll have to take her work up a notch when she's servicing the customer, but figure out what that looks like in the form of an SLA.
If she doesn't want to do this, then maybe being a cowboy webmaster isn't right for her.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274990</id>
	<title>Yes.  I should be paid.</title>
	<author>mightybaldking</author>
	<datestamp>1259576880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Now, this is not absolute. If I have to carry the pager once a month and it rarely rings, then I don't really care.

But, my general attitude is:  When I leave work, I should be able to drink myself into oblivion while shooting heroin, in a plane over the Pacific.  If I can't do that because of work, then you need to pay me for my time.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Now , this is not absolute .
If I have to carry the pager once a month and it rarely rings , then I do n't really care .
But , my general attitude is : When I leave work , I should be able to drink myself into oblivion while shooting heroin , in a plane over the Pacific .
If I ca n't do that because of work , then you need to pay me for my time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now, this is not absolute.
If I have to carry the pager once a month and it rarely rings, then I don't really care.
But, my general attitude is:  When I leave work, I should be able to drink myself into oblivion while shooting heroin, in a plane over the Pacific.
If I can't do that because of work, then you need to pay me for my time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274422</id>
	<title>Is Dazed and Confused really bad at his job?</title>
	<author>Zontar\_Thing\_From\_Ve</author>
	<datestamp>1259574480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>To be blunt, I don't care enough about the original article to read it.  However, I don't see anybody so far asking this question - <br> <br>

Is Dazed and Confused really bad at his job? <br> <br>

If he uses good programming practices, exactly how many calls is he going to get?  Is he using IIS?  Bad move.  At my previous job we had a customer at one time we provided hosting service only for and they blamed us for all of their IIS related issues, even though we weren't paid to be responsible.  It got hacked and it crashed regularly yet it was somehow our fault.  I supposed that Dazed might have the case of an insane customer who blames him for things that are not his fault or needs way too much handholding, but still, a properly designed website shouldn't need all that much attention after hours.  My previous employer required me to be on call 50\% of the time, but the good news was that we rarely got calls outside of normal business hours.  Still it kind of sucked.  My current job requires me to be on call for about 3 weeks each year.  I don't get paid extra for it, but 3 weeks is quite reasonable and if something comes up after hours that takes a lot of time, I can get comp time for it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>To be blunt , I do n't care enough about the original article to read it .
However , I do n't see anybody so far asking this question - Is Dazed and Confused really bad at his job ?
If he uses good programming practices , exactly how many calls is he going to get ?
Is he using IIS ?
Bad move .
At my previous job we had a customer at one time we provided hosting service only for and they blamed us for all of their IIS related issues , even though we were n't paid to be responsible .
It got hacked and it crashed regularly yet it was somehow our fault .
I supposed that Dazed might have the case of an insane customer who blames him for things that are not his fault or needs way too much handholding , but still , a properly designed website should n't need all that much attention after hours .
My previous employer required me to be on call 50 \ % of the time , but the good news was that we rarely got calls outside of normal business hours .
Still it kind of sucked .
My current job requires me to be on call for about 3 weeks each year .
I do n't get paid extra for it , but 3 weeks is quite reasonable and if something comes up after hours that takes a lot of time , I can get comp time for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To be blunt, I don't care enough about the original article to read it.
However, I don't see anybody so far asking this question -  

Is Dazed and Confused really bad at his job?
If he uses good programming practices, exactly how many calls is he going to get?
Is he using IIS?
Bad move.
At my previous job we had a customer at one time we provided hosting service only for and they blamed us for all of their IIS related issues, even though we weren't paid to be responsible.
It got hacked and it crashed regularly yet it was somehow our fault.
I supposed that Dazed might have the case of an insane customer who blames him for things that are not his fault or needs way too much handholding, but still, a properly designed website shouldn't need all that much attention after hours.
My previous employer required me to be on call 50\% of the time, but the good news was that we rarely got calls outside of normal business hours.
Still it kind of sucked.
My current job requires me to be on call for about 3 weeks each year.
I don't get paid extra for it, but 3 weeks is quite reasonable and if something comes up after hours that takes a lot of time, I can get comp time for it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30276194</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>Kalriath</author>
	<datestamp>1259581140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>3. Usually if she gets called in, someone is dying.  I would rarely, if ever, classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that.</p></div><p>Try doing IT at a hospital.  We are often informed that there is significant mortality risk if certain systems fail.</p><p>i.e, someone dies.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>3 .
Usually if she gets called in , someone is dying .
I would rarely , if ever , classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that.Try doing IT at a hospital .
We are often informed that there is significant mortality risk if certain systems fail.i.e , someone dies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>3.
Usually if she gets called in, someone is dying.
I would rarely, if ever, classify an IT emergency anywhere near as important as that.Try doing IT at a hospital.
We are often informed that there is significant mortality risk if certain systems fail.i.e, someone dies.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273906</id>
	<title>A model from Denmark</title>
	<author>leegaard</author>
	<datestamp>1259572560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I get paid for 40 hours of office time (or equivalent home office time) a week. Anything beyond 40 hours is extra. My hours are flexible, so I can leave two hours early one day and "earn them back" doing scheduled work during the evening or nights. If the 40 hours are already used up during the normal work week, the scheduled work outside normal business hours is extra. Extra in this case means an hourly rate of 200\% of your normal rate. Minimum is 2 hours.<br>Our on call system means aprox. 25\% of your hourly rate when you are on call and idle.<br>If called, the 25\% falls away and you are paid similar to scheduled work (meaning 200\% of the normal rate). In other companies I've been in touch with, the 25\% on call compensation has also been seen as a fixed weekly base pay for the week you are on call or as a on call compensation in 6-8 hour slices that makes smaller on call lumps cheaper for the company.</p><p>It might sound much bit here is why it is a good idea to have a high pay for out of hours work:<br>If you work more than 40 hour weeks you become less productive, less creative and generally more prone to stress as a direct result of the amount of work<br>Your time away from your loved ones should really cost a lot - I mean - you are already paid to be away from them 40 hours a week - about or more than half of your time awake.<br>Cheap on call service from the employee will mean that management will use the on call service more often out of hours. If it is expensive - all other things being equal - management will learn to plan better. Remember that management primarily looks at cost - not employee happiness or stress levels.</p><p>I work at AT&amp;T and was insourced from IBM a year ago where I had been for 9 years. This is Denmark - Now you know why Oprah thinks we are the happiest on the planet.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I get paid for 40 hours of office time ( or equivalent home office time ) a week .
Anything beyond 40 hours is extra .
My hours are flexible , so I can leave two hours early one day and " earn them back " doing scheduled work during the evening or nights .
If the 40 hours are already used up during the normal work week , the scheduled work outside normal business hours is extra .
Extra in this case means an hourly rate of 200 \ % of your normal rate .
Minimum is 2 hours.Our on call system means aprox .
25 \ % of your hourly rate when you are on call and idle.If called , the 25 \ % falls away and you are paid similar to scheduled work ( meaning 200 \ % of the normal rate ) .
In other companies I 've been in touch with , the 25 \ % on call compensation has also been seen as a fixed weekly base pay for the week you are on call or as a on call compensation in 6-8 hour slices that makes smaller on call lumps cheaper for the company.It might sound much bit here is why it is a good idea to have a high pay for out of hours work : If you work more than 40 hour weeks you become less productive , less creative and generally more prone to stress as a direct result of the amount of workYour time away from your loved ones should really cost a lot - I mean - you are already paid to be away from them 40 hours a week - about or more than half of your time awake.Cheap on call service from the employee will mean that management will use the on call service more often out of hours .
If it is expensive - all other things being equal - management will learn to plan better .
Remember that management primarily looks at cost - not employee happiness or stress levels.I work at AT&amp;T and was insourced from IBM a year ago where I had been for 9 years .
This is Denmark - Now you know why Oprah thinks we are the happiest on the planet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I get paid for 40 hours of office time (or equivalent home office time) a week.
Anything beyond 40 hours is extra.
My hours are flexible, so I can leave two hours early one day and "earn them back" doing scheduled work during the evening or nights.
If the 40 hours are already used up during the normal work week, the scheduled work outside normal business hours is extra.
Extra in this case means an hourly rate of 200\% of your normal rate.
Minimum is 2 hours.Our on call system means aprox.
25\% of your hourly rate when you are on call and idle.If called, the 25\% falls away and you are paid similar to scheduled work (meaning 200\% of the normal rate).
In other companies I've been in touch with, the 25\% on call compensation has also been seen as a fixed weekly base pay for the week you are on call or as a on call compensation in 6-8 hour slices that makes smaller on call lumps cheaper for the company.It might sound much bit here is why it is a good idea to have a high pay for out of hours work:If you work more than 40 hour weeks you become less productive, less creative and generally more prone to stress as a direct result of the amount of workYour time away from your loved ones should really cost a lot - I mean - you are already paid to be away from them 40 hours a week - about or more than half of your time awake.Cheap on call service from the employee will mean that management will use the on call service more often out of hours.
If it is expensive - all other things being equal - management will learn to plan better.
Remember that management primarily looks at cost - not employee happiness or stress levels.I work at AT&amp;T and was insourced from IBM a year ago where I had been for 9 years.
This is Denmark - Now you know why Oprah thinks we are the happiest on the planet.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274944</id>
	<title>are regular hours "hanging around firestation"?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259576700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
I'm not sure the fire station analogy applies.  Lawyer-person implies that we're only working when we get a call.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  As most admins know, you put in a good 45 to 70 hour week just doing regular work, trying desperately to get things to hold together reliably so you can get some sleep.  Soooooo..... that work doesn't count?
</p><p>
In one job, we got a pay differential for being on call.  In my previous job you just had to suck it up.  In my current job, we get additional paid time off for being on call, which makes more sense to me -- you're paid back for your time with additional time, which is often more important to me than additional money.  Of course, this assumes you have enough people in the department to pick up the slack.  It's pointless to grant time off and then not allow it to be taken.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not sure the fire station analogy applies .
Lawyer-person implies that we 're only working when we get a call .
Nothing could be further from the truth .
As most admins know , you put in a good 45 to 70 hour week just doing regular work , trying desperately to get things to hold together reliably so you can get some sleep .
Soooooo..... that work does n't count ?
In one job , we got a pay differential for being on call .
In my previous job you just had to suck it up .
In my current job , we get additional paid time off for being on call , which makes more sense to me -- you 're paid back for your time with additional time , which is often more important to me than additional money .
Of course , this assumes you have enough people in the department to pick up the slack .
It 's pointless to grant time off and then not allow it to be taken .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
I'm not sure the fire station analogy applies.
Lawyer-person implies that we're only working when we get a call.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
As most admins know, you put in a good 45 to 70 hour week just doing regular work, trying desperately to get things to hold together reliably so you can get some sleep.
Soooooo..... that work doesn't count?
In one job, we got a pay differential for being on call.
In my previous job you just had to suck it up.
In my current job, we get additional paid time off for being on call, which makes more sense to me -- you're paid back for your time with additional time, which is often more important to me than additional money.
Of course, this assumes you have enough people in the department to pick up the slack.
It's pointless to grant time off and then not allow it to be taken.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274126</id>
	<title>Re:Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>soupforare</author>
	<datestamp>1259573280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>And you need to be sober.</p></div></blockquote><p>I drink when I'm *at* work, I'm certainly not changing that when I'm on-call!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And you need to be sober.I drink when I 'm * at * work , I 'm certainly not changing that when I 'm on-call !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And you need to be sober.I drink when I'm *at* work, I'm certainly not changing that when I'm on-call!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273830</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274518</id>
	<title>Re:He's not really "on call"</title>
	<author>gravyface</author>
	<datestamp>1259574780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No, a company like Roto-Rooter will have enough staff and common sense to setup shifts to cover calls over a 24-hour period, 7 days a week.  His company has not made provisions for this and to expect that <strong>one person</strong> will be on-call and available 24/7 is ludicrous.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No , a company like Roto-Rooter will have enough staff and common sense to setup shifts to cover calls over a 24-hour period , 7 days a week .
His company has not made provisions for this and to expect that one person will be on-call and available 24/7 is ludicrous .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, a company like Roto-Rooter will have enough staff and common sense to setup shifts to cover calls over a 24-hour period, 7 days a week.
His company has not made provisions for this and to expect that one person will be on-call and available 24/7 is ludicrous.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273436</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274412</id>
	<title>It just like a lawyer...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259574480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>on call hours are not charged. So call your lawyer after hours..... better yet call that lawyer after hours.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>on call hours are not charged .
So call your lawyer after hours..... better yet call that lawyer after hours .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>on call hours are not charged.
So call your lawyer after hours..... better yet call that lawyer after hours.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274048</id>
	<title>Re:Of course you should be paid</title>
	<author>JonStewartMill</author>
	<datestamp>1259573100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Where I work, we've been told that because we're salaried, there's no feasible way to pay us extra for being on call.  Instead we get a half-day off at the end of our on-call week.  Two days' extra pay would be very nice indeed, but I'm okay with the half-day, maybe because I need a few extra hours away from this place more than I need a few extra bucks.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Where I work , we 've been told that because we 're salaried , there 's no feasible way to pay us extra for being on call .
Instead we get a half-day off at the end of our on-call week .
Two days ' extra pay would be very nice indeed , but I 'm okay with the half-day , maybe because I need a few extra hours away from this place more than I need a few extra bucks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where I work, we've been told that because we're salaried, there's no feasible way to pay us extra for being on call.
Instead we get a half-day off at the end of our on-call week.
Two days' extra pay would be very nice indeed, but I'm okay with the half-day, maybe because I need a few extra hours away from this place more than I need a few extra bucks.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273360</id>
	<title>No way.</title>
	<author>Buelldozer</author>
	<datestamp>1259614020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Expected on call 24 x 7 without being paid for it? I don't think so. I value my free time too much for that. How can you ever go fishing, hunting, camping, or be at a movie if you're expected to answer the phone?</p><p>The firefighter is not really paid for that small but crucial amount of time that they are in action. They are paid for the time that they're hanging around the station house unable to do anything BUT respond to fires.</p><p>Annie has this one wrong, very wrong</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Expected on call 24 x 7 without being paid for it ?
I do n't think so .
I value my free time too much for that .
How can you ever go fishing , hunting , camping , or be at a movie if you 're expected to answer the phone ? The firefighter is not really paid for that small but crucial amount of time that they are in action .
They are paid for the time that they 're hanging around the station house unable to do anything BUT respond to fires.Annie has this one wrong , very wrong</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Expected on call 24 x 7 without being paid for it?
I don't think so.
I value my free time too much for that.
How can you ever go fishing, hunting, camping, or be at a movie if you're expected to answer the phone?The firefighter is not really paid for that small but crucial amount of time that they are in action.
They are paid for the time that they're hanging around the station house unable to do anything BUT respond to fires.Annie has this one wrong, very wrong</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273758</id>
	<title>Re:Paid call</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259572080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Fuck you.<br>I was in charge of thousands of phones on a military base. IT problems can be emergencies too. Have you had to reconfigure a switch after a mortar attack, the last one is filled with shrapnel and the one you're working on might be quickly again if phones aren't restored.<br>How many people do you think would perish if 911 went down for an hour?<br>Sadly, it's not the exception to have life lines go over burdened networks and untested hacks, put in place when someone though, nothing important is going on.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Fuck you again</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Fuck you.I was in charge of thousands of phones on a military base .
IT problems can be emergencies too .
Have you had to reconfigure a switch after a mortar attack , the last one is filled with shrapnel and the one you 're working on might be quickly again if phones are n't restored.How many people do you think would perish if 911 went down for an hour ? Sadly , it 's not the exception to have life lines go over burdened networks and untested hacks , put in place when someone though , nothing important is going on .
... Fuck you again</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fuck you.I was in charge of thousands of phones on a military base.
IT problems can be emergencies too.
Have you had to reconfigure a switch after a mortar attack, the last one is filled with shrapnel and the one you're working on might be quickly again if phones aren't restored.How many people do you think would perish if 911 went down for an hour?Sadly, it's not the exception to have life lines go over burdened networks and untested hacks, put in place when someone though, nothing important is going on.
... Fuck you again</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30273332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30278712</id>
	<title>Being on call sucks</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259596800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My company has about 12 people in support positions, and we rotate. Everyone gets a week of on call duty about every 3 months. It sucks, because I feel like I can't do anything that week-- because who knows when the call will come when I have to drop everything and jump on the laptop, or worse, head to the colocation facility or client site if the problem can't be fixed remotely. On call duty was not a part of the job when I started, but as the company grew and switched to a managed services model we all had it thrust upon us.</p><p>We get comp time (not 1:1 in terms of hours) if we actually have to go on site during off-hours, but no other additional compensation for basically giving up a month of our personal lives per year. Several of the techs, myself included, think on call duty should be on a volunteer basis with a cash bonus paid for taking it, but that's never going to happen-- the company ain't gonna start paying for what it now gets for free.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My company has about 12 people in support positions , and we rotate .
Everyone gets a week of on call duty about every 3 months .
It sucks , because I feel like I ca n't do anything that week-- because who knows when the call will come when I have to drop everything and jump on the laptop , or worse , head to the colocation facility or client site if the problem ca n't be fixed remotely .
On call duty was not a part of the job when I started , but as the company grew and switched to a managed services model we all had it thrust upon us.We get comp time ( not 1 : 1 in terms of hours ) if we actually have to go on site during off-hours , but no other additional compensation for basically giving up a month of our personal lives per year .
Several of the techs , myself included , think on call duty should be on a volunteer basis with a cash bonus paid for taking it , but that 's never going to happen-- the company ai n't gon na start paying for what it now gets for free .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My company has about 12 people in support positions, and we rotate.
Everyone gets a week of on call duty about every 3 months.
It sucks, because I feel like I can't do anything that week-- because who knows when the call will come when I have to drop everything and jump on the laptop, or worse, head to the colocation facility or client site if the problem can't be fixed remotely.
On call duty was not a part of the job when I started, but as the company grew and switched to a managed services model we all had it thrust upon us.We get comp time (not 1:1 in terms of hours) if we actually have to go on site during off-hours, but no other additional compensation for basically giving up a month of our personal lives per year.
Several of the techs, myself included, think on call duty should be on a volunteer basis with a cash bonus paid for taking it, but that's never going to happen-- the company ain't gonna start paying for what it now gets for free.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274848</id>
	<title>re: Should You Be Paid For Being On Call?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259576160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>With my current position (I'll keep my employer unnamed), I support 100+ users (about 75 workstations) plus all onsite servers and networks and *substantial* customer support.  I also provide remote support to 2 smaller sites in other states. All three sites are open 24x7 and I am expected to be accessible to resolve any issues that come up. Up until recently, I had an assistant and we were barely able to keep our heads above water.  My assistant was recently laid off... so now a job that was impossible to do well is just plain impossible.

Like the original poster, if I am called in after hours or work a 14 or 16 hour day there is no extra pay.  If I take a day off, however, I have to use PTO or just not get paid... even if I am called in.  Awhile back I took a week off (the frequent demand is that we "cut payroll")... I was at work every day except 2 and was on the phone at least 2 hours a day.

So... should we be paid for being on call?  I would (emphatically) answer yes.  I would, however, gladly pass on being paid for being on call if there was a point when I could turn my phone off and just have some down time.</htmltext>
<tokenext>With my current position ( I 'll keep my employer unnamed ) , I support 100 + users ( about 75 workstations ) plus all onsite servers and networks and * substantial * customer support .
I also provide remote support to 2 smaller sites in other states .
All three sites are open 24x7 and I am expected to be accessible to resolve any issues that come up .
Up until recently , I had an assistant and we were barely able to keep our heads above water .
My assistant was recently laid off... so now a job that was impossible to do well is just plain impossible .
Like the original poster , if I am called in after hours or work a 14 or 16 hour day there is no extra pay .
If I take a day off , however , I have to use PTO or just not get paid... even if I am called in .
Awhile back I took a week off ( the frequent demand is that we " cut payroll " ) ... I was at work every day except 2 and was on the phone at least 2 hours a day .
So... should we be paid for being on call ?
I would ( emphatically ) answer yes .
I would , however , gladly pass on being paid for being on call if there was a point when I could turn my phone off and just have some down time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>With my current position (I'll keep my employer unnamed), I support 100+ users (about 75 workstations) plus all onsite servers and networks and *substantial* customer support.
I also provide remote support to 2 smaller sites in other states.
All three sites are open 24x7 and I am expected to be accessible to resolve any issues that come up.
Up until recently, I had an assistant and we were barely able to keep our heads above water.
My assistant was recently laid off... so now a job that was impossible to do well is just plain impossible.
Like the original poster, if I am called in after hours or work a 14 or 16 hour day there is no extra pay.
If I take a day off, however, I have to use PTO or just not get paid... even if I am called in.
Awhile back I took a week off (the frequent demand is that we "cut payroll")... I was at work every day except 2 and was on the phone at least 2 hours a day.
So... should we be paid for being on call?
I would (emphatically) answer yes.
I would, however, gladly pass on being paid for being on call if there was a point when I could turn my phone off and just have some down time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_30_1724255.30274226</id>
	<title>Ontario (Canada) Labour Law</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1259573700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here in Ontario, there are exceptions to the vacation and overtime rules as they apply to most people.<br>Specific to this article, an "IT Professional" is grossly vague in it's definition: "... who use specialized knowledge and professional judgement to work with information systems based on computers and related technologies."</p><p>IT Professionals are an exception to the generally fair provincial rules in the following areas: Hours of work, Daily rest periods, weekly/biweekly rest periods, eating periods, and overtime.</p><p>I once had an employer tell me to my face, "we can require you to work 80 hours per week, with no overtime if we wanted.  Be thankful you're only getting 50".  Granted, one could probably challenge them in court if they're that malicious with it, as that certainly wasn't the spirit of the labour laws when they were written.  But who can afford the lack of a job, as you will almost certainly be fired, legal fees, headaches, etc?</p><p>I ended up quitting.  Much easier for me.</p><p>See page 119 of the linked document (PDF):<br>http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pdf/es\_guide.pdf</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here in Ontario , there are exceptions to the vacation and overtime rules as they apply to most people.Specific to this article , an " IT Professional " is grossly vague in it 's definition : " ... who use specialized knowledge and professional judgement to work with information systems based on computers and related technologies .
" IT Professionals are an exception to the generally fair provincial rules in the following areas : Hours of work , Daily rest periods , weekly/biweekly rest periods , eating periods , and overtime.I once had an employer tell me to my face , " we can require you to work 80 hours per week , with no overtime if we wanted .
Be thankful you 're only getting 50 " .
Granted , one could probably challenge them in court if they 're that malicious with it , as that certainly was n't the spirit of the labour laws when they were written .
But who can afford the lack of a job , as you will almost certainly be fired , legal fees , headaches , etc ? I ended up quitting .
Much easier for me.See page 119 of the linked document ( PDF ) : http : //www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pdf/es \ _guide.pdf</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here in Ontario, there are exceptions to the vacation and overtime rules as they apply to most people.Specific to this article, an "IT Professional" is grossly vague in it's definition: "... who use specialized knowledge and professional judgement to work with information systems based on computers and related technologies.
"IT Professionals are an exception to the generally fair provincial rules in the following areas: Hours of work, Daily rest periods, weekly/biweekly rest periods, eating periods, and overtime.I once had an employer tell me to my face, "we can require you to work 80 hours per week, with no overtime if we wanted.
Be thankful you're only getting 50".
Granted, one could probably challenge them in court if they're that malicious with it, as that certainly wasn't the spirit of the labour laws when they were written.
But who can afford the lack of a job, as you will almost certainly be fired, legal fees, headaches, etc?I ended up quitting.
Much easier for me.See page 119 of the linked document (PDF):http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pdf/es\_guide.pdf</sentencetext>
</comment>
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