<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_11_11_1426256</id>
	<title>How Vulnerable Is <em>Our</em> Power Grid?</title>
	<author>CmdrTaco</author>
	<datestamp>1257950100000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>coreboarder writes <i>"Recently it was divulged that the Brazilian power infrastructure was <a href="http://it.slashdot.org/story/09/11/09/0012226/Massive-Power-Outages-In-Brazil-Caused-By-Hackers">compromised by hackers</a>. Then it was announced that <a href="http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/brazil\_blackout/">it was apparently faulty equipment</a>. A downplay to the global public or an honest clarification? Either way, it raises the question: how vulnerable are we, really? With winter and all its icy glory hurtling towards those of us in the northern hemisphere, how open are we to everything from terrorist threats to simple 'pay me or else' schemes?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>coreboarder writes " Recently it was divulged that the Brazilian power infrastructure was compromised by hackers .
Then it was announced that it was apparently faulty equipment .
A downplay to the global public or an honest clarification ?
Either way , it raises the question : how vulnerable are we , really ?
With winter and all its icy glory hurtling towards those of us in the northern hemisphere , how open are we to everything from terrorist threats to simple 'pay me or else ' schemes ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>coreboarder writes "Recently it was divulged that the Brazilian power infrastructure was compromised by hackers.
Then it was announced that it was apparently faulty equipment.
A downplay to the global public or an honest clarification?
Either way, it raises the question: how vulnerable are we, really?
With winter and all its icy glory hurtling towards those of us in the northern hemisphere, how open are we to everything from terrorist threats to simple 'pay me or else' schemes?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061414</id>
	<title>Re:Old Axiom</title>
	<author>vrmlguy</author>
	<datestamp>1257096060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I have always believed that if something is networked, it can be subject to unauthorized access.  I hope I am wrong.</p></div><p>I know that you mean computer networking, but there are other types of networks and power grids are one of them.  There is no single US power grid.  North America has two major and several minor grids covering most of the US and Canada, and there are lots of local grids that aren't interconnected at all.  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nercmap.JPG" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nercmap.JPG</a> [wikipedia.org]  I suppose that knocking out the Eastern or Western Interconnection is possible, but the other side would stay up, as would Alaska, Quebec and Texas.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have always believed that if something is networked , it can be subject to unauthorized access .
I hope I am wrong.I know that you mean computer networking , but there are other types of networks and power grids are one of them .
There is no single US power grid .
North America has two major and several minor grids covering most of the US and Canada , and there are lots of local grids that are n't interconnected at all .
http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File : Nercmap.JPG [ wikipedia.org ] I suppose that knocking out the Eastern or Western Interconnection is possible , but the other side would stay up , as would Alaska , Quebec and Texas .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have always believed that if something is networked, it can be subject to unauthorized access.
I hope I am wrong.I know that you mean computer networking, but there are other types of networks and power grids are one of them.
There is no single US power grid.
North America has two major and several minor grids covering most of the US and Canada, and there are lots of local grids that aren't interconnected at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nercmap.JPG [wikipedia.org]  I suppose that knocking out the Eastern or Western Interconnection is possible, but the other side would stay up, as would Alaska, Quebec and Texas.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30059988</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060974</id>
	<title>Re:Pay me or else?</title>
	<author>vlm</author>
	<datestamp>1257094260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Suppose someone holds the nation's power grid hostage and then wants payment?</p></div><p>Same thing they did to Enron, nothing and/or get a cut of the profit?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Suppose someone holds the nation 's power grid hostage and then wants payment ? Same thing they did to Enron , nothing and/or get a cut of the profit ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Suppose someone holds the nation's power grid hostage and then wants payment?Same thing they did to Enron, nothing and/or get a cut of the profit?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060016</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061820</id>
	<title>I worry about Oil/Gas companies, not Utilities</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257097440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A few years ago I did a vulnerability assessment for a good size electrical Co-Op in the US.  On the whole I was pretty impressed that the level of separation between the SCADA control networks and the corporate or Internet networks was well implemented.  About the only significant vulnerability was that a truck bomb would likely take out their control room, and both backup datapaths on their SCADA network.</p><p>What's really concerning though is Oil/Gas company networks.  I've been involved with a few, and many of them have significant integration and access to SCADA networks from the Internet and internal WAN networks.  Being able to accomplish things like controlling Gas flow on pipelines or in gas plants.  Possibly even being able to cause equipment failure.  While these events wouldn't cause a grid outage, they would cause significant environmental damage, and might effect product flow which could effect prices...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A few years ago I did a vulnerability assessment for a good size electrical Co-Op in the US .
On the whole I was pretty impressed that the level of separation between the SCADA control networks and the corporate or Internet networks was well implemented .
About the only significant vulnerability was that a truck bomb would likely take out their control room , and both backup datapaths on their SCADA network.What 's really concerning though is Oil/Gas company networks .
I 've been involved with a few , and many of them have significant integration and access to SCADA networks from the Internet and internal WAN networks .
Being able to accomplish things like controlling Gas flow on pipelines or in gas plants .
Possibly even being able to cause equipment failure .
While these events would n't cause a grid outage , they would cause significant environmental damage , and might effect product flow which could effect prices.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A few years ago I did a vulnerability assessment for a good size electrical Co-Op in the US.
On the whole I was pretty impressed that the level of separation between the SCADA control networks and the corporate or Internet networks was well implemented.
About the only significant vulnerability was that a truck bomb would likely take out their control room, and both backup datapaths on their SCADA network.What's really concerning though is Oil/Gas company networks.
I've been involved with a few, and many of them have significant integration and access to SCADA networks from the Internet and internal WAN networks.
Being able to accomplish things like controlling Gas flow on pipelines or in gas plants.
Possibly even being able to cause equipment failure.
While these events wouldn't cause a grid outage, they would cause significant environmental damage, and might effect product flow which could effect prices...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060386</id>
	<title>Re:Who's We?</title>
	<author>InsertWittyNameHere</author>
	<datestamp>1257091680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Please let me know from what nationality a poster to Slashdot actually believes <b>his</b> is the only one represented on this website..</p></div><p>We all make assumptions.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Please let me know from what nationality a poster to Slashdot actually believes his is the only one represented on this website..We all make assumptions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Please let me know from what nationality a poster to Slashdot actually believes his is the only one represented on this website..We all make assumptions.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060054</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30063270</id>
	<title>Here is how open we are</title>
	<author>Khyber</author>
	<datestamp>1257103620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We're VERY vulnerable to this. Slashdot reported on this a year or two ago - <a href="http://domino.watson.ibm.com/comm/wwwr\_thinkresearch.nsf/pages/hacking397.html" title="ibm.com">http://domino.watson.ibm.com/comm/wwwr\_thinkresearch.nsf/pages/hacking397.html</a> [ibm.com]</p><p>IBM researchers were able to gain control of  the controls of a nuclear power plant from the outside.</p><p>GET OUR FUCKING INFRASTRUCTURE OFF THE INTERNET!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We 're VERY vulnerable to this .
Slashdot reported on this a year or two ago - http : //domino.watson.ibm.com/comm/wwwr \ _thinkresearch.nsf/pages/hacking397.html [ ibm.com ] IBM researchers were able to gain control of the controls of a nuclear power plant from the outside.GET OUR FUCKING INFRASTRUCTURE OFF THE INTERNET !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We're VERY vulnerable to this.
Slashdot reported on this a year or two ago - http://domino.watson.ibm.com/comm/wwwr\_thinkresearch.nsf/pages/hacking397.html [ibm.com]IBM researchers were able to gain control of  the controls of a nuclear power plant from the outside.GET OUR FUCKING INFRASTRUCTURE OFF THE INTERNET!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060908</id>
	<title>Re:Speaking for generation, NOT VULNERABLE</title>
	<author>el\_tedward</author>
	<datestamp>1257093960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>uuh.. right.


I went to a conference done by a couple people from DHS, and they had some different opinions. One of them was an auditor with quite a bit of experience, and one of his main points was that in his entire time doing auditing for utilities/infrastructure, he had NEVER found a 100\% isolated system. It's pretty much impossible to have a network where there is no way to get data from outside the network in. There's always either someone who takes home one of the company laptops, a USB port on something that shouldn't have a USB port, or an unmonitored modem sitting around.


The average patch time for these utilities is just under a year.. I don't see how that isn't vulnerable.


It also sounds an awfully lot like you and a bunch of other people here are trying to say that just because the protocols used for DCS/SCADA systems aren't as well known as others, that they're somehow secure.. You're basically making the "security through obscurity" argument, which we all know is false.


Also, it was mentioned that the average patch time for these places is just under a year, with some that hadn't even done any patches for nearly two years.


Maybe things are different where you work at, but this is pretty much what the auditor's experience was at the vast majority of the sites he visited.</htmltext>
<tokenext>uuh.. right . I went to a conference done by a couple people from DHS , and they had some different opinions .
One of them was an auditor with quite a bit of experience , and one of his main points was that in his entire time doing auditing for utilities/infrastructure , he had NEVER found a 100 \ % isolated system .
It 's pretty much impossible to have a network where there is no way to get data from outside the network in .
There 's always either someone who takes home one of the company laptops , a USB port on something that should n't have a USB port , or an unmonitored modem sitting around .
The average patch time for these utilities is just under a year.. I do n't see how that is n't vulnerable .
It also sounds an awfully lot like you and a bunch of other people here are trying to say that just because the protocols used for DCS/SCADA systems are n't as well known as others , that they 're somehow secure.. You 're basically making the " security through obscurity " argument , which we all know is false .
Also , it was mentioned that the average patch time for these places is just under a year , with some that had n't even done any patches for nearly two years .
Maybe things are different where you work at , but this is pretty much what the auditor 's experience was at the vast majority of the sites he visited .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>uuh.. right.


I went to a conference done by a couple people from DHS, and they had some different opinions.
One of them was an auditor with quite a bit of experience, and one of his main points was that in his entire time doing auditing for utilities/infrastructure, he had NEVER found a 100\% isolated system.
It's pretty much impossible to have a network where there is no way to get data from outside the network in.
There's always either someone who takes home one of the company laptops, a USB port on something that shouldn't have a USB port, or an unmonitored modem sitting around.
The average patch time for these utilities is just under a year.. I don't see how that isn't vulnerable.
It also sounds an awfully lot like you and a bunch of other people here are trying to say that just because the protocols used for DCS/SCADA systems aren't as well known as others, that they're somehow secure.. You're basically making the "security through obscurity" argument, which we all know is false.
Also, it was mentioned that the average patch time for these places is just under a year, with some that hadn't even done any patches for nearly two years.
Maybe things are different where you work at, but this is pretty much what the auditor's experience was at the vast majority of the sites he visited.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060416</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060240</id>
	<title>How vulnerable is *your* power grid?</title>
	<author>GuyFawkes</author>
	<datestamp>1257091080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm writing from the UK, so no matter what happens to *your* power grid, it won't affect *our* power grid.</p><p>Before you can get a sensible answer, you need to learn to ask a sensible question.</p><p>In any event, *your* power grid has already proven to be incredibly vulnerable to everything from single points of failure to social engineering for profit (Enron) so, quite frankly, worrying about the vulnerability of *your* power grid to hacking is like wondering about the vulnerability of a shiny new laptop left unattended on a car front seat to hacking... you have other issues to need to address first.</p><p>It is like wondering how vulnerable *your* road bridges and infrastructure are to hacking, while completely ignoring the fact that they are falling down by themselves due to lack of maintenance.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm writing from the UK , so no matter what happens to * your * power grid , it wo n't affect * our * power grid.Before you can get a sensible answer , you need to learn to ask a sensible question.In any event , * your * power grid has already proven to be incredibly vulnerable to everything from single points of failure to social engineering for profit ( Enron ) so , quite frankly , worrying about the vulnerability of * your * power grid to hacking is like wondering about the vulnerability of a shiny new laptop left unattended on a car front seat to hacking... you have other issues to need to address first.It is like wondering how vulnerable * your * road bridges and infrastructure are to hacking , while completely ignoring the fact that they are falling down by themselves due to lack of maintenance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm writing from the UK, so no matter what happens to *your* power grid, it won't affect *our* power grid.Before you can get a sensible answer, you need to learn to ask a sensible question.In any event, *your* power grid has already proven to be incredibly vulnerable to everything from single points of failure to social engineering for profit (Enron) so, quite frankly, worrying about the vulnerability of *your* power grid to hacking is like wondering about the vulnerability of a shiny new laptop left unattended on a car front seat to hacking... you have other issues to need to address first.It is like wondering how vulnerable *your* road bridges and infrastructure are to hacking, while completely ignoring the fact that they are falling down by themselves due to lack of maintenance.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060620</id>
	<title>Re:You wanna that I take down the grid?</title>
	<author>L4t3r4lu5</author>
	<datestamp>1257092760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you believe in free speech then you support racism.<br> <br>If you believe in freedom of sexuality then you support paedophiles.<br> <br>If you are against the death penalty, you're a communist.<br> <br>If any of the above seem reasonable to you, do your country a favour and continue to not vote.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you believe in free speech then you support racism .
If you believe in freedom of sexuality then you support paedophiles .
If you are against the death penalty , you 're a communist .
If any of the above seem reasonable to you , do your country a favour and continue to not vote .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you believe in free speech then you support racism.
If you believe in freedom of sexuality then you support paedophiles.
If you are against the death penalty, you're a communist.
If any of the above seem reasonable to you, do your country a favour and continue to not vote.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060224</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060934</id>
	<title>Move to Texas...</title>
	<author>iCantSpell</author>
	<datestamp>1257094080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>It has it's own power grid.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It has it 's own power grid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It has it's own power grid.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30063036</id>
	<title>Re:Speaking for generation, NOT VULNERABLE</title>
	<author>JumpDrive</author>
	<datestamp>1257102840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The same also goes for transport of gasoline and natural gas.  A lot of major pipelines are running across the country and the main security is security through obscurity.  Although all you have to do is look for signs of where these pipelines are.  We have land with about a 3 foot natural gas line running underneath it.  All you would have to do is drive around and see the maintenance access stations and thus be able to figure out where the line is run.  <br>
<a href="http://www.mcdonaldlawaz.com/aroundaz/gas\_lines.htm" title="mcdonaldlawaz.com">El Paso - Phoenix gas line rupture</a> [mcdonaldlawaz.com] <br>
Luckily Phoenix had another line or things would have been much worse.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The same also goes for transport of gasoline and natural gas .
A lot of major pipelines are running across the country and the main security is security through obscurity .
Although all you have to do is look for signs of where these pipelines are .
We have land with about a 3 foot natural gas line running underneath it .
All you would have to do is drive around and see the maintenance access stations and thus be able to figure out where the line is run .
El Paso - Phoenix gas line rupture [ mcdonaldlawaz.com ] Luckily Phoenix had another line or things would have been much worse .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The same also goes for transport of gasoline and natural gas.
A lot of major pipelines are running across the country and the main security is security through obscurity.
Although all you have to do is look for signs of where these pipelines are.
We have land with about a 3 foot natural gas line running underneath it.
All you would have to do is drive around and see the maintenance access stations and thus be able to figure out where the line is run.
El Paso - Phoenix gas line rupture [mcdonaldlawaz.com] 
Luckily Phoenix had another line or things would have been much worse.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060416</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060188</id>
	<title>This vulnerable</title>
	<author>cabjf</author>
	<datestamp>1257090840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast\_Blackout\_of\_2003" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast\_Blackout\_of\_2003</a> [wikipedia.org]
<br> <br>
If we can't get a reliable grid even without thinking about terrorists and hackers, then how secure do you think it could be?  If one link in the chain can cause a widespread blackout, not very secure at all.</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast \ _Blackout \ _of \ _2003 [ wikipedia.org ] If we ca n't get a reliable grid even without thinking about terrorists and hackers , then how secure do you think it could be ?
If one link in the chain can cause a widespread blackout , not very secure at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast\_Blackout\_of\_2003 [wikipedia.org]
 
If we can't get a reliable grid even without thinking about terrorists and hackers, then how secure do you think it could be?
If one link in the chain can cause a widespread blackout, not very secure at all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30062682</id>
	<title>How vulnerable are we, really?</title>
	<author>chord.wav</author>
	<datestamp>1257101340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why you you even care to ask the readers? Ask a goddam expert with authority on the matter for Pete's sake!! Hate this bottom-up journalism where the reader has to make the story.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why you you even care to ask the readers ?
Ask a goddam expert with authority on the matter for Pete 's sake ! !
Hate this bottom-up journalism where the reader has to make the story .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why you you even care to ask the readers?
Ask a goddam expert with authority on the matter for Pete's sake!!
Hate this bottom-up journalism where the reader has to make the story.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061004</id>
	<title>How would the US possibly stop anyone?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257094380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We have a military so politically correct that when faced with persons that give presentations to upper echelon staff with phrases like "We love death more than you love life", does nothing.  End result: 12 people dead, more injured.</p><p>We have the TSA that is so fearful of "profiling" people so they feel they must hassle white grandmothers while letting young Muslim men proceed to test the boundaries of airline security.</p><p>We have police that do not wish to be accused of "profiling" in any way, so basically give a pass to illegal immigrants driving without licenses while stopping and ticketing others.  This continues even in the face of significant numbers of accidents caused by such illegal immigrants.</p><p>While it might be illegal to defraud Americans in America, it clearly isn't when it is being done from places like Bulgaria.  So we have US-based registrars setting up domains for people with names like "citibank-online.com" and "ebay-online.com" when the purchasor is in places where law enforcement isn't going to bother them.  And then we poor Americans all cry about how bank security is so lax.  Unfortunately, all of the protections that work in the real world aren't being applied online, so it is easy to steal from people without fear of any consequences.</p><p>Face it, we're due for some trouble.  If thousands of people die because someone takes out the power grid for a week it isn't because security is lax - it is because the people that are paid to handle security are looking the other way.  Intentionally.  And no, unlike the guy on 60 minutes when thousands die it will not be a "wakeup call" and everything is magically fixed.  It is going to take a lot more than that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We have a military so politically correct that when faced with persons that give presentations to upper echelon staff with phrases like " We love death more than you love life " , does nothing .
End result : 12 people dead , more injured.We have the TSA that is so fearful of " profiling " people so they feel they must hassle white grandmothers while letting young Muslim men proceed to test the boundaries of airline security.We have police that do not wish to be accused of " profiling " in any way , so basically give a pass to illegal immigrants driving without licenses while stopping and ticketing others .
This continues even in the face of significant numbers of accidents caused by such illegal immigrants.While it might be illegal to defraud Americans in America , it clearly is n't when it is being done from places like Bulgaria .
So we have US-based registrars setting up domains for people with names like " citibank-online.com " and " ebay-online.com " when the purchasor is in places where law enforcement is n't going to bother them .
And then we poor Americans all cry about how bank security is so lax .
Unfortunately , all of the protections that work in the real world are n't being applied online , so it is easy to steal from people without fear of any consequences.Face it , we 're due for some trouble .
If thousands of people die because someone takes out the power grid for a week it is n't because security is lax - it is because the people that are paid to handle security are looking the other way .
Intentionally. And no , unlike the guy on 60 minutes when thousands die it will not be a " wakeup call " and everything is magically fixed .
It is going to take a lot more than that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We have a military so politically correct that when faced with persons that give presentations to upper echelon staff with phrases like "We love death more than you love life", does nothing.
End result: 12 people dead, more injured.We have the TSA that is so fearful of "profiling" people so they feel they must hassle white grandmothers while letting young Muslim men proceed to test the boundaries of airline security.We have police that do not wish to be accused of "profiling" in any way, so basically give a pass to illegal immigrants driving without licenses while stopping and ticketing others.
This continues even in the face of significant numbers of accidents caused by such illegal immigrants.While it might be illegal to defraud Americans in America, it clearly isn't when it is being done from places like Bulgaria.
So we have US-based registrars setting up domains for people with names like "citibank-online.com" and "ebay-online.com" when the purchasor is in places where law enforcement isn't going to bother them.
And then we poor Americans all cry about how bank security is so lax.
Unfortunately, all of the protections that work in the real world aren't being applied online, so it is easy to steal from people without fear of any consequences.Face it, we're due for some trouble.
If thousands of people die because someone takes out the power grid for a week it isn't because security is lax - it is because the people that are paid to handle security are looking the other way.
Intentionally.  And no, unlike the guy on 60 minutes when thousands die it will not be a "wakeup call" and everything is magically fixed.
It is going to take a lot more than that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060214</id>
	<title>Re:Who's We?</title>
	<author>houstonbofh</author>
	<datestamp>1257090960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think it was a rhetorical "our" in the summery.  Hence the stars around it...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think it was a rhetorical " our " in the summery .
Hence the stars around it.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think it was a rhetorical "our" in the summery.
Hence the stars around it...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060054</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30062658</id>
	<title>Re:You wanna that I take down the grid?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257101220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Guy Fawkes is a lousy example of a populace's antidote to fascism.  He was a member of a small group of traitors engaged in a religious spat.  If their intentions had been noble and they'd had any public support they'd have started a revolution rather than attempting assassination.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Guy Fawkes is a lousy example of a populace 's antidote to fascism .
He was a member of a small group of traitors engaged in a religious spat .
If their intentions had been noble and they 'd had any public support they 'd have started a revolution rather than attempting assassination .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Guy Fawkes is a lousy example of a populace's antidote to fascism.
He was a member of a small group of traitors engaged in a religious spat.
If their intentions had been noble and they'd had any public support they'd have started a revolution rather than attempting assassination.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060562</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060580</id>
	<title>Re:How vulnerable is *your* power grid?</title>
	<author>rift321</author>
	<datestamp>1257092580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I couldn't agree more - The risk of hackers getting to our grids is FAR outweighed by the risk of physical attack, which is FAR outweighed by the risk of poor design and maintenance.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I could n't agree more - The risk of hackers getting to our grids is FAR outweighed by the risk of physical attack , which is FAR outweighed by the risk of poor design and maintenance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I couldn't agree more - The risk of hackers getting to our grids is FAR outweighed by the risk of physical attack, which is FAR outweighed by the risk of poor design and maintenance.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060240</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060996</id>
	<title>re: our power grid</title>
	<author>freddieb</author>
	<datestamp>1257094320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Most power companies have fiber on the high tension lines and their own network. I expect it (mostly) is not accessible from the internet.
My concern is the hardware. A few years ago we had a major blackout because of the domino effect of one or two outages. All of the
redundancy works in theory but there is no way to test it in the real world unless you have an outage.

It's much like the datacenter outages, they never seem to be as redundant as intended.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most power companies have fiber on the high tension lines and their own network .
I expect it ( mostly ) is not accessible from the internet .
My concern is the hardware .
A few years ago we had a major blackout because of the domino effect of one or two outages .
All of the redundancy works in theory but there is no way to test it in the real world unless you have an outage .
It 's much like the datacenter outages , they never seem to be as redundant as intended .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most power companies have fiber on the high tension lines and their own network.
I expect it (mostly) is not accessible from the internet.
My concern is the hardware.
A few years ago we had a major blackout because of the domino effect of one or two outages.
All of the
redundancy works in theory but there is no way to test it in the real world unless you have an outage.
It's much like the datacenter outages, they never seem to be as redundant as intended.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060872</id>
	<title>Re:You wanna that I take down the grid?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257093840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you don't believe in gun rights you support facism in the US.</p><p>I'd rather deal with a hypothetical lone nut than deal with actual Soviet style government.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you do n't believe in gun rights you support facism in the US.I 'd rather deal with a hypothetical lone nut than deal with actual Soviet style government .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you don't believe in gun rights you support facism in the US.I'd rather deal with a hypothetical lone nut than deal with actual Soviet style government.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060224</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061152</id>
	<title>This raises hope...</title>
	<author>MikeURL</author>
	<datestamp>1257094920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>...that engineers are, in fact, not complete morons.
<br> <br>
Critical infrastructure has to have an air-gap.  I find it hard to believe, until I see convincing evidence to the contrary, that power grids can be controlled from the internets.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...that engineers are , in fact , not complete morons .
Critical infrastructure has to have an air-gap .
I find it hard to believe , until I see convincing evidence to the contrary , that power grids can be controlled from the internets .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...that engineers are, in fact, not complete morons.
Critical infrastructure has to have an air-gap.
I find it hard to believe, until I see convincing evidence to the contrary, that power grids can be controlled from the internets.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30065054</id>
	<title>MSBlaster / DCOM / and the New York outages</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257067200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>DCOM enabled in all SCADA systems as of 2005, NY and northeast power outages at time of blaster peak infection... and the 50+ other countries that lost power the same week.</p><p>http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2003-q3/2248.html</p><p>im glad yall are talkin about this</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>DCOM enabled in all SCADA systems as of 2005 , NY and northeast power outages at time of blaster peak infection... and the 50 + other countries that lost power the same week.http : //archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2003-q3/2248.htmlim glad yall are talkin about this</tokentext>
<sentencetext>DCOM enabled in all SCADA systems as of 2005, NY and northeast power outages at time of blaster peak infection... and the 50+ other countries that lost power the same week.http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2003-q3/2248.htmlim glad yall are talkin about this</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060094</id>
	<title>How is that any different....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257090540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>than the current local power monopolies?  We are already in a "pay me or else" scheme which threatens lives and leaves us with this vulnerable infrastructure in the first place.  And, unlike the "terrorists", the power companies have the cojones to stand before Congress and admit the control systems are vulnerable, the transmission grid is old and failing, the expected load in the next 15 years can't be handled and then claim its not their problem, its too expensive and the government needs to pay for it.  As if they aren't taking enough on the front end from the consumer, they want more off the back end too.</p><p>Sickening.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>than the current local power monopolies ?
We are already in a " pay me or else " scheme which threatens lives and leaves us with this vulnerable infrastructure in the first place .
And , unlike the " terrorists " , the power companies have the cojones to stand before Congress and admit the control systems are vulnerable , the transmission grid is old and failing , the expected load in the next 15 years ca n't be handled and then claim its not their problem , its too expensive and the government needs to pay for it .
As if they are n't taking enough on the front end from the consumer , they want more off the back end too.Sickening .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>than the current local power monopolies?
We are already in a "pay me or else" scheme which threatens lives and leaves us with this vulnerable infrastructure in the first place.
And, unlike the "terrorists", the power companies have the cojones to stand before Congress and admit the control systems are vulnerable, the transmission grid is old and failing, the expected load in the next 15 years can't be handled and then claim its not their problem, its too expensive and the government needs to pay for it.
As if they aren't taking enough on the front end from the consumer, they want more off the back end too.Sickening.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060286</id>
	<title>Re:Who's We?</title>
	<author>ExE122</author>
	<datestamp>1257091200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Please let me know from what nationality a poster to Slashdot actually believes his is the only one represented on this website</p></div><p>United Federation of Planets, duh</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Please let me know from what nationality a poster to Slashdot actually believes his is the only one represented on this websiteUnited Federation of Planets , duh</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Please let me know from what nationality a poster to Slashdot actually believes his is the only one represented on this websiteUnited Federation of Planets, duh
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060054</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061494</id>
	<title>IDIOCY</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257096360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Remove the F'ing critical CNC from the fucking internet and then have human monitored entry points only accessible via securely layered authorization procedures using good old fashioned voice circuits to get access authorization and line based modems for actual access for any with a need to access.</p><p>Then monitor every fucking thing they do for fucks sake, they do it in china for those using search engines, we can fucking do it for critical infrastructure.</p><p>The fucking ridiculous notion that everything and everywhere needs to be connected and unmonitored for convenience is just fucking stupid, its doesn't and it shouldn't be.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Remove the F'ing critical CNC from the fucking internet and then have human monitored entry points only accessible via securely layered authorization procedures using good old fashioned voice circuits to get access authorization and line based modems for actual access for any with a need to access.Then monitor every fucking thing they do for fucks sake , they do it in china for those using search engines , we can fucking do it for critical infrastructure.The fucking ridiculous notion that everything and everywhere needs to be connected and unmonitored for convenience is just fucking stupid , its does n't and it should n't be .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Remove the F'ing critical CNC from the fucking internet and then have human monitored entry points only accessible via securely layered authorization procedures using good old fashioned voice circuits to get access authorization and line based modems for actual access for any with a need to access.Then monitor every fucking thing they do for fucks sake, they do it in china for those using search engines, we can fucking do it for critical infrastructure.The fucking ridiculous notion that everything and everywhere needs to be connected and unmonitored for convenience is just fucking stupid, its doesn't and it shouldn't be.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30064218</id>
	<title>Mod parent up</title>
	<author>sean.peters</author>
	<datestamp>1257106860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Mostly, it would be much easier to physically damage the transmission lines than it would be to hack into the control systems. Although control system hacking is sexier (at least on Slashdot), it would probably be smarter to focus on the more likely threats.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Mostly , it would be much easier to physically damage the transmission lines than it would be to hack into the control systems .
Although control system hacking is sexier ( at least on Slashdot ) , it would probably be smarter to focus on the more likely threats .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mostly, it would be much easier to physically damage the transmission lines than it would be to hack into the control systems.
Although control system hacking is sexier (at least on Slashdot), it would probably be smarter to focus on the more likely threats.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060112</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060384</id>
	<title>Why the "terrorism" tag</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257091680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Didn't you guys get Obama's memo?  There is no such thing as terrorism - only human-caused disasters.  Please report to the Ministry of Truth (<a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/" title="whitehouse.gov" rel="nofollow">http://www.whitehouse.gov/</a> [whitehouse.gov]) for sensitivity reprogramming.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Did n't you guys get Obama 's memo ?
There is no such thing as terrorism - only human-caused disasters .
Please report to the Ministry of Truth ( http : //www.whitehouse.gov/ [ whitehouse.gov ] ) for sensitivity reprogramming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Didn't you guys get Obama's memo?
There is no such thing as terrorism - only human-caused disasters.
Please report to the Ministry of Truth (http://www.whitehouse.gov/ [whitehouse.gov]) for sensitivity reprogramming.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060016</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061390</id>
	<title>Re:How vulnerable is *your* power grid?</title>
	<author>jacksonj04</author>
	<datestamp>1257096000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Last time I was in the US travelling we experienced regular power glitches over the course of two weeks, over most of the midwest. Nothing massive, just the odd drop in voltage which made charging devices think they'd been unplugged or plugged back in combined with lights dimming.</p><p>I don't know if that's 'normal' for US power, but in the UK such events are few and far between. and generally occur for no more than a minute or two whilst the Grid shuffles some energy around.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Last time I was in the US travelling we experienced regular power glitches over the course of two weeks , over most of the midwest .
Nothing massive , just the odd drop in voltage which made charging devices think they 'd been unplugged or plugged back in combined with lights dimming.I do n't know if that 's 'normal ' for US power , but in the UK such events are few and far between .
and generally occur for no more than a minute or two whilst the Grid shuffles some energy around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Last time I was in the US travelling we experienced regular power glitches over the course of two weeks, over most of the midwest.
Nothing massive, just the odd drop in voltage which made charging devices think they'd been unplugged or plugged back in combined with lights dimming.I don't know if that's 'normal' for US power, but in the UK such events are few and far between.
and generally occur for no more than a minute or two whilst the Grid shuffles some energy around.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060938</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060084</id>
	<title>A bigger threat</title>
	<author>brian0918</author>
	<datestamp>1257090480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>A bigger threat than terrorists is arbitrary <a href="http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2008-summer/property-rights-electric-grid.asp" title="theobjectivestandard.com">government restriction on competition in the electric grid</a> [theobjectivestandard.com], which is what led to the rolling blackouts in California.
<br> <br>
In any case, this winter could be bad - probably a good time to get a generator.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A bigger threat than terrorists is arbitrary government restriction on competition in the electric grid [ theobjectivestandard.com ] , which is what led to the rolling blackouts in California .
In any case , this winter could be bad - probably a good time to get a generator .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A bigger threat than terrorists is arbitrary government restriction on competition in the electric grid [theobjectivestandard.com], which is what led to the rolling blackouts in California.
In any case, this winter could be bad - probably a good time to get a generator.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060740</id>
	<title>Re:Old Axiom</title>
	<author>Svartalf</author>
	<datestamp>1257093240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You wouldn't be wrong, sadly...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You would n't be wrong , sadly.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You wouldn't be wrong, sadly...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30059988</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30062568</id>
	<title>Re:Old Axiom</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257100680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>what the frack admiral Adama!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>what the frack admiral Adama !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>what the frack admiral Adama!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30059988</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060164</id>
	<title>neeed more power</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257090780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>need more power for my vibrator.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>need more power for my vibrator .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>need more power for my vibrator.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060830</id>
	<title>One giant vulnerability</title>
	<author>Muad'Dave</author>
	<datestamp>1257093660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Only recently has there been any concern whatsoever given to securing the thousands of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCADA" title="wikipedia.org">SCADA</a> [wikipedia.org] links that monitor and control our electrical grid. The protocols are extremely basic, and anyone with a small amount of radio knowledge could easily override the point-to-point radio links commonly in use.</p><p>For instance, <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&amp;source=s\_q&amp;hl=en&amp;geocode=&amp;q=ashland,va&amp;sll=37.0625,-95.677068&amp;sspn=34.587666,92.460937&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=&amp;hnear=Ashland,+Hanover,+Virginia&amp;ll=37.697931,-77.483772&amp;spn=0.004219,0.011287&amp;t=h&amp;z=17" title="google.com">this substation</a> [google.com] used to have a tower with a microwave SCADA link to Dominion's control point. Combine that knowledge with a little public searching of the FCC site, and you've got the exact frequencies used. It looks like they've abandoned the 10GHz microwave links, but I hope they're using dedicated fiber and not internet-based VPNs or the 950 MHz transmitter that uses 2k00A2D modulation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Only recently has there been any concern whatsoever given to securing the thousands of SCADA [ wikipedia.org ] links that monitor and control our electrical grid .
The protocols are extremely basic , and anyone with a small amount of radio knowledge could easily override the point-to-point radio links commonly in use.For instance , this substation [ google.com ] used to have a tower with a microwave SCADA link to Dominion 's control point .
Combine that knowledge with a little public searching of the FCC site , and you 've got the exact frequencies used .
It looks like they 've abandoned the 10GHz microwave links , but I hope they 're using dedicated fiber and not internet-based VPNs or the 950 MHz transmitter that uses 2k00A2D modulation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Only recently has there been any concern whatsoever given to securing the thousands of SCADA [wikipedia.org] links that monitor and control our electrical grid.
The protocols are extremely basic, and anyone with a small amount of radio knowledge could easily override the point-to-point radio links commonly in use.For instance, this substation [google.com] used to have a tower with a microwave SCADA link to Dominion's control point.
Combine that knowledge with a little public searching of the FCC site, and you've got the exact frequencies used.
It looks like they've abandoned the 10GHz microwave links, but I hope they're using dedicated fiber and not internet-based VPNs or the 950 MHz transmitter that uses 2k00A2D modulation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30066496</id>
	<title>No hacker just a homer Simpson in the control room</title>
	<author>Joe The Dragon</author>
	<datestamp>1257073860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No hacker just a Homer Simpson in the control room</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No hacker just a Homer Simpson in the control room</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No hacker just a Homer Simpson in the control room</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061436</id>
	<title>I don't know...</title>
	<author>Rithiur</author>
	<datestamp>1257096180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>So, why doesn't the government simply pay them, then track them down for assassination and release photos of their bullet ridden corpses?</p></div><p>Human rights, maybe?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So , why does n't the government simply pay them , then track them down for assassination and release photos of their bullet ridden corpses ? Human rights , maybe ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So, why doesn't the government simply pay them, then track them down for assassination and release photos of their bullet ridden corpses?Human rights, maybe?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060016</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061530</id>
	<title>How many times need this question be answered?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257096420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The question of grid vulnerability comes up again and again.   Every time, it is treated as if the question was novel and never addressed before.</p><p>I work in the industry.  My view is not that cyber security is being neglected.  On the contrary, it seems more like the situation in the Grand Canyon where there were 30 anthropologists for every Indian being studies.  Homeland Security and DOE Tiger teams and security auditors swarm like flies around the operations centers.  Each of them looks forward to fame and fortune if they expose the one big unaddressed vulnerability.</p><p>The most recent fully public test of the grid's vulnerability was the Y2K scare.   Many people, including renowned experts such as Capers Jones, figured that there would be no way the grid could survive Y2K without numerous incidents.  The actual grid incident count on the night in question was zero.   No hacker could conceivably create a more ubiquitous and more diverse cyber challenge to the grid than Y2K.</p><p>What about robustness and vulnerability to chains of failures?   It is true that regional blackouts do occur.  Every incident can be traced to a chain of failures.  However, earthquakes, hurricanes and especially ice storms every year challenge the grids with multiple simultaneous failures; sometimes hundreds of thousands of simultaneous failures without triggering cascades.  Do you really think that a hacker could think up something more challenging than an ice storm?</p><p>One thing not appreciated is the design criteria.  The NERC criteria for blackouts is that blackouts affecting more than 10 million people should not happen more than once every 10 years.  Using NYC as a benchmark, it was blacked out in 1965, 1977 and 2003.</p><p>The public, on the other hand, thinks erroneously that the grid should be infinitely reliable and that every regional level blackout represents an avoidable failure, and that each blackout reduces confidence in the system.</p><p>Ironically, people who live in places with frequent loss of electric service, such as India, adapt so well that it causes minimal disruption.  It is a paradox that the more reliable electric supply, the less well prepared the public becomes for outages and the more neurotic they become over hypothetical threats.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The question of grid vulnerability comes up again and again .
Every time , it is treated as if the question was novel and never addressed before.I work in the industry .
My view is not that cyber security is being neglected .
On the contrary , it seems more like the situation in the Grand Canyon where there were 30 anthropologists for every Indian being studies .
Homeland Security and DOE Tiger teams and security auditors swarm like flies around the operations centers .
Each of them looks forward to fame and fortune if they expose the one big unaddressed vulnerability.The most recent fully public test of the grid 's vulnerability was the Y2K scare .
Many people , including renowned experts such as Capers Jones , figured that there would be no way the grid could survive Y2K without numerous incidents .
The actual grid incident count on the night in question was zero .
No hacker could conceivably create a more ubiquitous and more diverse cyber challenge to the grid than Y2K.What about robustness and vulnerability to chains of failures ?
It is true that regional blackouts do occur .
Every incident can be traced to a chain of failures .
However , earthquakes , hurricanes and especially ice storms every year challenge the grids with multiple simultaneous failures ; sometimes hundreds of thousands of simultaneous failures without triggering cascades .
Do you really think that a hacker could think up something more challenging than an ice storm ? One thing not appreciated is the design criteria .
The NERC criteria for blackouts is that blackouts affecting more than 10 million people should not happen more than once every 10 years .
Using NYC as a benchmark , it was blacked out in 1965 , 1977 and 2003.The public , on the other hand , thinks erroneously that the grid should be infinitely reliable and that every regional level blackout represents an avoidable failure , and that each blackout reduces confidence in the system.Ironically , people who live in places with frequent loss of electric service , such as India , adapt so well that it causes minimal disruption .
It is a paradox that the more reliable electric supply , the less well prepared the public becomes for outages and the more neurotic they become over hypothetical threats .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The question of grid vulnerability comes up again and again.
Every time, it is treated as if the question was novel and never addressed before.I work in the industry.
My view is not that cyber security is being neglected.
On the contrary, it seems more like the situation in the Grand Canyon where there were 30 anthropologists for every Indian being studies.
Homeland Security and DOE Tiger teams and security auditors swarm like flies around the operations centers.
Each of them looks forward to fame and fortune if they expose the one big unaddressed vulnerability.The most recent fully public test of the grid's vulnerability was the Y2K scare.
Many people, including renowned experts such as Capers Jones, figured that there would be no way the grid could survive Y2K without numerous incidents.
The actual grid incident count on the night in question was zero.
No hacker could conceivably create a more ubiquitous and more diverse cyber challenge to the grid than Y2K.What about robustness and vulnerability to chains of failures?
It is true that regional blackouts do occur.
Every incident can be traced to a chain of failures.
However, earthquakes, hurricanes and especially ice storms every year challenge the grids with multiple simultaneous failures; sometimes hundreds of thousands of simultaneous failures without triggering cascades.
Do you really think that a hacker could think up something more challenging than an ice storm?One thing not appreciated is the design criteria.
The NERC criteria for blackouts is that blackouts affecting more than 10 million people should not happen more than once every 10 years.
Using NYC as a benchmark, it was blacked out in 1965, 1977 and 2003.The public, on the other hand, thinks erroneously that the grid should be infinitely reliable and that every regional level blackout represents an avoidable failure, and that each blackout reduces confidence in the system.Ironically, people who live in places with frequent loss of electric service, such as India, adapt so well that it causes minimal disruption.
It is a paradox that the more reliable electric supply, the less well prepared the public becomes for outages and the more neurotic they become over hypothetical threats.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061726</id>
	<title>Re:Who's We?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257097140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, We all make generalizations.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , We all make generalizations .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, We all make generalizations.
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30066000</id>
	<title>wtf ?</title>
	<author>smoker2</author>
	<datestamp>1257071940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>WHO FUCKING CARES ?</htmltext>
<tokenext>WHO FUCKING CARES ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>WHO FUCKING CARES ?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060446</id>
	<title>Re:You wanna that I take down the grid?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257092040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If you believe in gun rights then you support terrorism in the US</p></div><p>Go fuck yourself.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you believe in gun rights then you support terrorism in the USGo fuck yourself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you believe in gun rights then you support terrorism in the USGo fuck yourself.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060224</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060284</id>
	<title>Re:Old Axiom</title>
	<author>sopssa</author>
	<datestamp>1257091200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is why you don't network everything <i>even if you could</i>. In some countries they're resistant to build remote-controlling in to everything - sure, when something needs fixing it might take a little longer to physically get there, but at least you don't have script kiddies playing on your power grid or dam's.</p><p>But I also think there's some scare tactic behind these "how vulnerable we <i>really</i> are" news. I think I've read about these power grid hackers several times on slashdot alone.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is why you do n't network everything even if you could .
In some countries they 're resistant to build remote-controlling in to everything - sure , when something needs fixing it might take a little longer to physically get there , but at least you do n't have script kiddies playing on your power grid or dam 's.But I also think there 's some scare tactic behind these " how vulnerable we really are " news .
I think I 've read about these power grid hackers several times on slashdot alone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is why you don't network everything even if you could.
In some countries they're resistant to build remote-controlling in to everything - sure, when something needs fixing it might take a little longer to physically get there, but at least you don't have script kiddies playing on your power grid or dam's.But I also think there's some scare tactic behind these "how vulnerable we really are" news.
I think I've read about these power grid hackers several times on slashdot alone.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30059988</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30063376</id>
	<title>Realistically, though...</title>
	<author>sean.peters</author>
	<datestamp>1257104100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>... it would be hard to do that without being detected. Not impossible, but hard. It's impossible to be completely invulnerable to any threat, but I think hacking into electrical control systems like this is sufficiently difficult that you'd be better off worrying about someone else. For example, if your aim was to disrupt electrical power, wouldn't it be easier to blow up one or more of the towers that hold up the high-tension lines coming out of a power plant?</htmltext>
<tokenext>... it would be hard to do that without being detected .
Not impossible , but hard .
It 's impossible to be completely invulnerable to any threat , but I think hacking into electrical control systems like this is sufficiently difficult that you 'd be better off worrying about someone else .
For example , if your aim was to disrupt electrical power , would n't it be easier to blow up one or more of the towers that hold up the high-tension lines coming out of a power plant ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... it would be hard to do that without being detected.
Not impossible, but hard.
It's impossible to be completely invulnerable to any threat, but I think hacking into electrical control systems like this is sufficiently difficult that you'd be better off worrying about someone else.
For example, if your aim was to disrupt electrical power, wouldn't it be easier to blow up one or more of the towers that hold up the high-tension lines coming out of a power plant?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30065210</id>
	<title>Re:Threats to Grid overstated.</title>
	<author>jeffstar</author>
	<datestamp>1257067920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>. All these pieces of embedded equipment have their own stuff, and the knowledge tends to be very specialized.</i><br>How do you feel about 61850</p><p>I haven't had the opportunity to work with it hands-on myself yet, just watch other people with the new gear and drool</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>.
All these pieces of embedded equipment have their own stuff , and the knowledge tends to be very specialized.How do you feel about 61850I have n't had the opportunity to work with it hands-on myself yet , just watch other people with the new gear and drool</tokentext>
<sentencetext>.
All these pieces of embedded equipment have their own stuff, and the knowledge tends to be very specialized.How do you feel about 61850I haven't had the opportunity to work with it hands-on myself yet, just watch other people with the new gear and drool</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060452</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061492</id>
	<title>Context and background</title>
	<author>Shoten</author>
	<datestamp>1257096360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At the moment, there's a power struggle around Cyber Security in the Federal government.  The consolidation of cyber warfare capability at the NSA is one aspect of that; the other is the desire by the NSA to get control over domestic cyber security as well, which officially (if ineffectively) resides with the DHS at the moment.  As a result, there's a blitz of activity, largely headed up with McConnell, towards that end.  I saw him speak at the NDIA Cyber Security Symposium in San Diego a couple of weeks ago, and directly asked him (after he gave a long talk saying nothing was being done about the security of the power grid...which is entirely false, as I'll describe below) about his observations related to the regulatory actions being driven by NERC.</p><p>So, let me explain that.  NERC stands for the "North American Electricity Reliability Corporation."  It is a cross-national organization responsible for making sure the lights stay on, basically.  It regulates a wide variety of things, including the operation of Balancing Authorities, but the most important thing it does with regard to this news item is mandate IT security controls and measures for what are known as "Critical Assets."  In other words, it works a little bit like PCI, but for the power grid.  The requirements are known as Critical Infrastructure Protection standards, or "CIP Standards," and there are 9 of them.  The penalties for failing to meet these standards are enormous; the standard fine is $10,000 per day per violation, and the max fine is $1 million dollars, USD, per day.</p><p>With fines like these, power companies are scrambling to meet these standards, obviously.  I've been involved in efforts at several companies throughout the United States, at places where the efforts are of varying maturity and scale.  But I have seen first hand that there is a LOT of activity around NERC, and even more pressure being put down on the utilities from NERC.  Many companies have taken advantage of a loophole to state that they have no Critical Assets, but that loophole is being closed, and the CEO of NERC has issued a letter to the industry, basically calling the guilty parties out on their abuse of it.  Meanwhile, I've seen many major power companies spending millions in the last year alone, working hard to get things in order.</p><p>So, it was astonishing to me to hear former DNI McConnell state that NERC wasn't doing anything except blocking when FERC (which is a U.S.-only regulatory body) wanted to make things more secure.  Especially since FERC helped create NERC, and eagerly handed over authority to them, so that there'd be regulatory authority across borders.  (The power grid's interdependencies know no national boundaries; when the lights went out in 2003, it took down both parts of the US and Canadian grid, together.)  I didn't want to argue with the man; the audience was made up of a lot of potential customers, and so that wouldn't exactly have been a winning strategy in terms of the larger picture.  But either he was full of shit, or he thought I was talking about the NRC (Nuclear Regulatory Council) when I pronounced 'NERC'.</p><p>And then comes 60 Minutes...and there he is, saying things along similar lines.  We're super-vulnerable...nothing is being done...hackers did this...hackers can do that.  And it's just making me crazy, because there are a lot of people working very hard at this.  There's a lot to do, don't get me wrong; most power infrastructure is in need of an IT overhaul.  But it's also highly segmented, often airgapped, and the work has begun to secure all of it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At the moment , there 's a power struggle around Cyber Security in the Federal government .
The consolidation of cyber warfare capability at the NSA is one aspect of that ; the other is the desire by the NSA to get control over domestic cyber security as well , which officially ( if ineffectively ) resides with the DHS at the moment .
As a result , there 's a blitz of activity , largely headed up with McConnell , towards that end .
I saw him speak at the NDIA Cyber Security Symposium in San Diego a couple of weeks ago , and directly asked him ( after he gave a long talk saying nothing was being done about the security of the power grid...which is entirely false , as I 'll describe below ) about his observations related to the regulatory actions being driven by NERC.So , let me explain that .
NERC stands for the " North American Electricity Reliability Corporation .
" It is a cross-national organization responsible for making sure the lights stay on , basically .
It regulates a wide variety of things , including the operation of Balancing Authorities , but the most important thing it does with regard to this news item is mandate IT security controls and measures for what are known as " Critical Assets .
" In other words , it works a little bit like PCI , but for the power grid .
The requirements are known as Critical Infrastructure Protection standards , or " CIP Standards , " and there are 9 of them .
The penalties for failing to meet these standards are enormous ; the standard fine is $ 10,000 per day per violation , and the max fine is $ 1 million dollars , USD , per day.With fines like these , power companies are scrambling to meet these standards , obviously .
I 've been involved in efforts at several companies throughout the United States , at places where the efforts are of varying maturity and scale .
But I have seen first hand that there is a LOT of activity around NERC , and even more pressure being put down on the utilities from NERC .
Many companies have taken advantage of a loophole to state that they have no Critical Assets , but that loophole is being closed , and the CEO of NERC has issued a letter to the industry , basically calling the guilty parties out on their abuse of it .
Meanwhile , I 've seen many major power companies spending millions in the last year alone , working hard to get things in order.So , it was astonishing to me to hear former DNI McConnell state that NERC was n't doing anything except blocking when FERC ( which is a U.S.-only regulatory body ) wanted to make things more secure .
Especially since FERC helped create NERC , and eagerly handed over authority to them , so that there 'd be regulatory authority across borders .
( The power grid 's interdependencies know no national boundaries ; when the lights went out in 2003 , it took down both parts of the US and Canadian grid , together .
) I did n't want to argue with the man ; the audience was made up of a lot of potential customers , and so that would n't exactly have been a winning strategy in terms of the larger picture .
But either he was full of shit , or he thought I was talking about the NRC ( Nuclear Regulatory Council ) when I pronounced 'NERC'.And then comes 60 Minutes...and there he is , saying things along similar lines .
We 're super-vulnerable...nothing is being done...hackers did this...hackers can do that .
And it 's just making me crazy , because there are a lot of people working very hard at this .
There 's a lot to do , do n't get me wrong ; most power infrastructure is in need of an IT overhaul .
But it 's also highly segmented , often airgapped , and the work has begun to secure all of it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At the moment, there's a power struggle around Cyber Security in the Federal government.
The consolidation of cyber warfare capability at the NSA is one aspect of that; the other is the desire by the NSA to get control over domestic cyber security as well, which officially (if ineffectively) resides with the DHS at the moment.
As a result, there's a blitz of activity, largely headed up with McConnell, towards that end.
I saw him speak at the NDIA Cyber Security Symposium in San Diego a couple of weeks ago, and directly asked him (after he gave a long talk saying nothing was being done about the security of the power grid...which is entirely false, as I'll describe below) about his observations related to the regulatory actions being driven by NERC.So, let me explain that.
NERC stands for the "North American Electricity Reliability Corporation.
"  It is a cross-national organization responsible for making sure the lights stay on, basically.
It regulates a wide variety of things, including the operation of Balancing Authorities, but the most important thing it does with regard to this news item is mandate IT security controls and measures for what are known as "Critical Assets.
"  In other words, it works a little bit like PCI, but for the power grid.
The requirements are known as Critical Infrastructure Protection standards, or "CIP Standards," and there are 9 of them.
The penalties for failing to meet these standards are enormous; the standard fine is $10,000 per day per violation, and the max fine is $1 million dollars, USD, per day.With fines like these, power companies are scrambling to meet these standards, obviously.
I've been involved in efforts at several companies throughout the United States, at places where the efforts are of varying maturity and scale.
But I have seen first hand that there is a LOT of activity around NERC, and even more pressure being put down on the utilities from NERC.
Many companies have taken advantage of a loophole to state that they have no Critical Assets, but that loophole is being closed, and the CEO of NERC has issued a letter to the industry, basically calling the guilty parties out on their abuse of it.
Meanwhile, I've seen many major power companies spending millions in the last year alone, working hard to get things in order.So, it was astonishing to me to hear former DNI McConnell state that NERC wasn't doing anything except blocking when FERC (which is a U.S.-only regulatory body) wanted to make things more secure.
Especially since FERC helped create NERC, and eagerly handed over authority to them, so that there'd be regulatory authority across borders.
(The power grid's interdependencies know no national boundaries; when the lights went out in 2003, it took down both parts of the US and Canadian grid, together.
)  I didn't want to argue with the man; the audience was made up of a lot of potential customers, and so that wouldn't exactly have been a winning strategy in terms of the larger picture.
But either he was full of shit, or he thought I was talking about the NRC (Nuclear Regulatory Council) when I pronounced 'NERC'.And then comes 60 Minutes...and there he is, saying things along similar lines.
We're super-vulnerable...nothing is being done...hackers did this...hackers can do that.
And it's just making me crazy, because there are a lot of people working very hard at this.
There's a lot to do, don't get me wrong; most power infrastructure is in need of an IT overhaul.
But it's also highly segmented, often airgapped, and the work has begun to secure all of it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060224</id>
	<title>You wanna that I take down the grid?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257091020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><ul>
<li>High powered rifle</li>
<li>Box of ammo</li><li>A bit of target practice</li><li>5 to 10 people scattered around the country in remote areas taking potshots from their trucks</li></ul><p>If you believe in gun rights then you support terrorism in the US</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>High powered rifle Box of ammoA bit of target practice5 to 10 people scattered around the country in remote areas taking potshots from their trucksIf you believe in gun rights then you support terrorism in the US</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
High powered rifle
Box of ammoA bit of target practice5 to 10 people scattered around the country in remote areas taking potshots from their trucksIf you believe in gun rights then you support terrorism in the US</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060138</id>
	<title>Re:Pay me or else?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257090720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No it wouldn't deter anything.  People always assume the bullet-ridden corpses were just dumb, and they will be smart and not get caught.</p><p>As for heating problems, I have a backup propane heater so even if the central electric died, I won't freeze.  Worse-case I go sit in my car and get warm there.  People should always have a backup plan.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No it would n't deter anything .
People always assume the bullet-ridden corpses were just dumb , and they will be smart and not get caught.As for heating problems , I have a backup propane heater so even if the central electric died , I wo n't freeze .
Worse-case I go sit in my car and get warm there .
People should always have a backup plan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No it wouldn't deter anything.
People always assume the bullet-ridden corpses were just dumb, and they will be smart and not get caught.As for heating problems, I have a backup propane heater so even if the central electric died, I won't freeze.
Worse-case I go sit in my car and get warm there.
People should always have a backup plan.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060016</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060616</id>
	<title>Re:A bigger threat</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257092760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Please stop spreading misinformation. There's ample evidence that Enron manipulated prices. Ever heard of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death\_Star\_(business)" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">Death Star</a> [wikipedia.org]?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Please stop spreading misinformation .
There 's ample evidence that Enron manipulated prices .
Ever heard of Death Star [ wikipedia.org ] ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Please stop spreading misinformation.
There's ample evidence that Enron manipulated prices.
Ever heard of Death Star [wikipedia.org]?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060084</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061934</id>
	<title>SCADA only as vulnerable as the OS running it</title>
	<author>bl8n8r</author>
	<datestamp>1257097980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How vulnerable is it? Face it, most SCADA systems are windows based.  If you need more of a hint than that you are in pretty strong denial.</p><p>Also, there's no way in hell that an archaic infrastructure like the power grid is going to just turn around and run something else overnight.  The reasons are simple. Change.  Computer security changes things and bases the argument for change mostly on hypotheticals. It's easy for people to shoot it full of holes because you can't prove something 'will' happen.</p><p>What's worse, is most places don't even know they are cracked.  People think since their system booted fine and isn't acting slow, everything is hunky-dory.  malware is getting leaner and systems are getting faster and you don't notice when something is hitting the wire, cpu or disk anymore.  We're pretty well f#cked on the power grid.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How vulnerable is it ?
Face it , most SCADA systems are windows based .
If you need more of a hint than that you are in pretty strong denial.Also , there 's no way in hell that an archaic infrastructure like the power grid is going to just turn around and run something else overnight .
The reasons are simple .
Change. Computer security changes things and bases the argument for change mostly on hypotheticals .
It 's easy for people to shoot it full of holes because you ca n't prove something 'will ' happen.What 's worse , is most places do n't even know they are cracked .
People think since their system booted fine and is n't acting slow , everything is hunky-dory .
malware is getting leaner and systems are getting faster and you do n't notice when something is hitting the wire , cpu or disk anymore .
We 're pretty well f # cked on the power grid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How vulnerable is it?
Face it, most SCADA systems are windows based.
If you need more of a hint than that you are in pretty strong denial.Also, there's no way in hell that an archaic infrastructure like the power grid is going to just turn around and run something else overnight.
The reasons are simple.
Change.  Computer security changes things and bases the argument for change mostly on hypotheticals.
It's easy for people to shoot it full of holes because you can't prove something 'will' happen.What's worse, is most places don't even know they are cracked.
People think since their system booted fine and isn't acting slow, everything is hunky-dory.
malware is getting leaner and systems are getting faster and you don't notice when something is hitting the wire, cpu or disk anymore.
We're pretty well f#cked on the power grid.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30065808</id>
	<title>Re:Old Axiom</title>
	<author>AK Marc</author>
	<datestamp>1257070920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>I have always believed that if something is networked, it can be subject to unauthorized access. I hope I am wrong.</i> <br> <br>I have always believed that if something exists, it can be subject to unauthorized access.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have always believed that if something is networked , it can be subject to unauthorized access .
I hope I am wrong .
I have always believed that if something exists , it can be subject to unauthorized access .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have always believed that if something is networked, it can be subject to unauthorized access.
I hope I am wrong.
I have always believed that if something exists, it can be subject to unauthorized access.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30059988</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061762</id>
	<title>Re:Threats to Grid overstated.</title>
	<author>TubeSteak</author>
	<datestamp>1257097260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>c) Extremely critical stuff is done with a phone call by people that know each other. Like, "turn the generator off", is something done not so automatically.</p></div><p>So you're saying the system is vulnerable to social engineering.<br>Great.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>c ) Extremely critical stuff is done with a phone call by people that know each other .
Like , " turn the generator off " , is something done not so automatically.So you 're saying the system is vulnerable to social engineering.Great .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>c) Extremely critical stuff is done with a phone call by people that know each other.
Like, "turn the generator off", is something done not so automatically.So you're saying the system is vulnerable to social engineering.Great.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060452</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060452</id>
	<title>Threats to Grid overstated.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257092100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would say that threats to the power grid tend to be overstated.</p><p>a) Power grids in the USA are regional affairs, so, the worst that can happen is one section of the country might get whacked.<br>b) Power companies frequently operate their own private physical networks for control... at least, that's the way it was in the early 2000's when I was into it.  Our company had built their own private fiber optic loop.<br>c) Extremely critical stuff is done with a phone call by people that know each other.  Like, "turn the generator off", is something done not so automatically.<br>d) There are loads of incompatible stuff out there in the field for remote control and SCADA.  So, if you could go out there, and tell every customer to turn off all their equipment, remotely, you'd be so rich from just building a product that could do that, you would not want to go to jail, when you could be a billionaire.  Just reading a power meter has dozens of protocols, formats, etc, and many of them are actually just wired up with a dumb phone line.</p><p>It's not impossible, I'm sure.. but, its not like hacking into a machine knowing that its running either Linux / Apache or Windows / IIS and going from there.  All these pieces of embedded equipment have their own stuff, and the knowledge tends to be very specialized.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would say that threats to the power grid tend to be overstated.a ) Power grids in the USA are regional affairs , so , the worst that can happen is one section of the country might get whacked.b ) Power companies frequently operate their own private physical networks for control... at least , that 's the way it was in the early 2000 's when I was into it .
Our company had built their own private fiber optic loop.c ) Extremely critical stuff is done with a phone call by people that know each other .
Like , " turn the generator off " , is something done not so automatically.d ) There are loads of incompatible stuff out there in the field for remote control and SCADA .
So , if you could go out there , and tell every customer to turn off all their equipment , remotely , you 'd be so rich from just building a product that could do that , you would not want to go to jail , when you could be a billionaire .
Just reading a power meter has dozens of protocols , formats , etc , and many of them are actually just wired up with a dumb phone line.It 's not impossible , I 'm sure.. but , its not like hacking into a machine knowing that its running either Linux / Apache or Windows / IIS and going from there .
All these pieces of embedded equipment have their own stuff , and the knowledge tends to be very specialized .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would say that threats to the power grid tend to be overstated.a) Power grids in the USA are regional affairs, so, the worst that can happen is one section of the country might get whacked.b) Power companies frequently operate their own private physical networks for control... at least, that's the way it was in the early 2000's when I was into it.
Our company had built their own private fiber optic loop.c) Extremely critical stuff is done with a phone call by people that know each other.
Like, "turn the generator off", is something done not so automatically.d) There are loads of incompatible stuff out there in the field for remote control and SCADA.
So, if you could go out there, and tell every customer to turn off all their equipment, remotely, you'd be so rich from just building a product that could do that, you would not want to go to jail, when you could be a billionaire.
Just reading a power meter has dozens of protocols, formats, etc, and many of them are actually just wired up with a dumb phone line.It's not impossible, I'm sure.. but, its not like hacking into a machine knowing that its running either Linux / Apache or Windows / IIS and going from there.
All these pieces of embedded equipment have their own stuff, and the knowledge tends to be very specialized.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30062764</id>
	<title>FUD isn't evidence.</title>
	<author>DerekLyons</author>
	<datestamp>1257101640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>How vulnerable is it? Face it, most SCADA systems are windows based. If you need more of a hint than that you are in pretty strong denial.</p></div></blockquote><p>If that's your only 'evidence' of problems, then you are pretty clueless and just parroting the party line.  Yes, Windows is vulnerable and can be unstable - that does <i>not</i> mean that any given Windows machine has been cracked and/or is constantly crashing.  I'll give and grant that it takes more effort to do so than it should, but it isn't impossible to run a Windows system that is both secure and stable - especially if it's air gapped and comfiguration controlled.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>How vulnerable is it ?
Face it , most SCADA systems are windows based .
If you need more of a hint than that you are in pretty strong denial.If that 's your only 'evidence ' of problems , then you are pretty clueless and just parroting the party line .
Yes , Windows is vulnerable and can be unstable - that does not mean that any given Windows machine has been cracked and/or is constantly crashing .
I 'll give and grant that it takes more effort to do so than it should , but it is n't impossible to run a Windows system that is both secure and stable - especially if it 's air gapped and comfiguration controlled .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How vulnerable is it?
Face it, most SCADA systems are windows based.
If you need more of a hint than that you are in pretty strong denial.If that's your only 'evidence' of problems, then you are pretty clueless and just parroting the party line.
Yes, Windows is vulnerable and can be unstable - that does not mean that any given Windows machine has been cracked and/or is constantly crashing.
I'll give and grant that it takes more effort to do so than it should, but it isn't impossible to run a Windows system that is both secure and stable - especially if it's air gapped and comfiguration controlled.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061934</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30064104</id>
	<title>Re:How vulnerable is *your* power grid?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257106440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>LOL. You have no idea.</p><p>There is always a linkage between the internet and the command and control network. The control networks need to report data used for billing. Billing is done by corporate types, using IT networks. Even air-gapped systems have linkage that needs to be managed - eg systems engineers transporting data in/out via usb stick.</p><p>What is true is that good utilities have layer upon layer of infrastructure with independent and well locked-down firewalls between each layer, so to get to the control layer you would need to go though all of them first. Good utilities run HIDS and NIDS in each layer and have security event management systems to monitor them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>LOL .
You have no idea.There is always a linkage between the internet and the command and control network .
The control networks need to report data used for billing .
Billing is done by corporate types , using IT networks .
Even air-gapped systems have linkage that needs to be managed - eg systems engineers transporting data in/out via usb stick.What is true is that good utilities have layer upon layer of infrastructure with independent and well locked-down firewalls between each layer , so to get to the control layer you would need to go though all of them first .
Good utilities run HIDS and NIDS in each layer and have security event management systems to monitor them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>LOL.
You have no idea.There is always a linkage between the internet and the command and control network.
The control networks need to report data used for billing.
Billing is done by corporate types, using IT networks.
Even air-gapped systems have linkage that needs to be managed - eg systems engineers transporting data in/out via usb stick.What is true is that good utilities have layer upon layer of infrastructure with independent and well locked-down firewalls between each layer, so to get to the control layer you would need to go though all of them first.
Good utilities run HIDS and NIDS in each layer and have security event management systems to monitor them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060938</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061024</id>
	<title>Re:One word: Enron</title>
	<author>dkleinsc</author>
	<datestamp>1257094440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hey now. Don't leave out FirstEnergy Corp, which managed to (through poor maintenance combined with efforts to hide rather than fix problems) take out electricity for Ohio, Ontario, Quebec, New York, Pennsylvania, and New England in 2003.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hey now .
Do n't leave out FirstEnergy Corp , which managed to ( through poor maintenance combined with efforts to hide rather than fix problems ) take out electricity for Ohio , Ontario , Quebec , New York , Pennsylvania , and New England in 2003 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hey now.
Don't leave out FirstEnergy Corp, which managed to (through poor maintenance combined with efforts to hide rather than fix problems) take out electricity for Ohio, Ontario, Quebec, New York, Pennsylvania, and New England in 2003.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060000</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060016</id>
	<title>Pay me or else?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257090060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Suppose someone holds the nation's power grid hostage and then wants payment?  So, why doesn't the government simply pay them, then track them down for assassination and release photos of their bullet ridden corpses?  Would certainly discourage any copy-cat crimes.  Somali pirates too.</p><p>Just a thought...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Suppose someone holds the nation 's power grid hostage and then wants payment ?
So , why does n't the government simply pay them , then track them down for assassination and release photos of their bullet ridden corpses ?
Would certainly discourage any copy-cat crimes .
Somali pirates too.Just a thought.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Suppose someone holds the nation's power grid hostage and then wants payment?
So, why doesn't the government simply pay them, then track them down for assassination and release photos of their bullet ridden corpses?
Would certainly discourage any copy-cat crimes.
Somali pirates too.Just a thought...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30069704</id>
	<title>Explain to me..</title>
	<author>Rexdude</author>
	<datestamp>1257100560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>..why does critical infrastructure need to be accessible remotely over the network? The computer systems for sensitive installations like this ought to be physically isolated, and all terminals accessing them secured properly. Let the sys admin or whoever works on them physically go to the power station/nuclear plant etc. Then we'll only have social engineering to worry about.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>..why does critical infrastructure need to be accessible remotely over the network ?
The computer systems for sensitive installations like this ought to be physically isolated , and all terminals accessing them secured properly .
Let the sys admin or whoever works on them physically go to the power station/nuclear plant etc .
Then we 'll only have social engineering to worry about .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>..why does critical infrastructure need to be accessible remotely over the network?
The computer systems for sensitive installations like this ought to be physically isolated, and all terminals accessing them secured properly.
Let the sys admin or whoever works on them physically go to the power station/nuclear plant etc.
Then we'll only have social engineering to worry about.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060540</id>
	<title>The Brazilian power grid</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257092460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The Brazilian power grid is *our* power grid to many posters</htmltext>
<tokenext>The Brazilian power grid is * our * power grid to many posters</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Brazilian power grid is *our* power grid to many posters</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30059988</id>
	<title>Old Axiom</title>
	<author>2names</author>
	<datestamp>1257089880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have always believed that if something is networked, it can be subject to unauthorized access.  I hope I am wrong.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have always believed that if something is networked , it can be subject to unauthorized access .
I hope I am wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have always believed that if something is networked, it can be subject to unauthorized access.
I hope I am wrong.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30063252</id>
	<title>Most of these control systems...</title>
	<author>sean.peters</author>
	<datestamp>1257103500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>... even if they are accessible remotely, are not accessible over the internet. They're done either over dedicated lines, or via wireless connections that are encrypted, use proprietary protocols, or both. So the real threat isn't terrorists or the Russian mafia - it's your standard inside job. That doesn't mean that the vulnerability isn't there, but it mitigates it quite a lot. There are really only a few people with the capability and access to do this kind of thing, and it's relatively easy to watch over them. Just beware of the disgruntled employee/former employee/contractor.</htmltext>
<tokenext>... even if they are accessible remotely , are not accessible over the internet .
They 're done either over dedicated lines , or via wireless connections that are encrypted , use proprietary protocols , or both .
So the real threat is n't terrorists or the Russian mafia - it 's your standard inside job .
That does n't mean that the vulnerability is n't there , but it mitigates it quite a lot .
There are really only a few people with the capability and access to do this kind of thing , and it 's relatively easy to watch over them .
Just beware of the disgruntled employee/former employee/contractor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... even if they are accessible remotely, are not accessible over the internet.
They're done either over dedicated lines, or via wireless connections that are encrypted, use proprietary protocols, or both.
So the real threat isn't terrorists or the Russian mafia - it's your standard inside job.
That doesn't mean that the vulnerability isn't there, but it mitigates it quite a lot.
There are really only a few people with the capability and access to do this kind of thing, and it's relatively easy to watch over them.
Just beware of the disgruntled employee/former employee/contractor.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30059988</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061464</id>
	<title>Re:Pay me or else?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257096240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah we could apply that to other crimes too. How about, if you get convicted of murder, the government pays someone to kill you and makes your death publicly known? Bam, no more murders.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah we could apply that to other crimes too .
How about , if you get convicted of murder , the government pays someone to kill you and makes your death publicly known ?
Bam , no more murders .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah we could apply that to other crimes too.
How about, if you get convicted of murder, the government pays someone to kill you and makes your death publicly known?
Bam, no more murders.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060016</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30065302</id>
	<title>Re:One giant vulnerability</title>
	<author>jeffstar</author>
	<datestamp>1257068160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>all radio communications are totally vulnerable to being jammed. There is no way around it.</p><p>And fibres are easily cut. Just run your truck into a pole and down they go or get your trenching tool and dig them up or if you are in the med drop your anchor.</p><p>Systems fail without human intervention, something as large and ubiquitous as the power grid and the communication infrastructure for the 'smart' grid basically can't be protected.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>all radio communications are totally vulnerable to being jammed .
There is no way around it.And fibres are easily cut .
Just run your truck into a pole and down they go or get your trenching tool and dig them up or if you are in the med drop your anchor.Systems fail without human intervention , something as large and ubiquitous as the power grid and the communication infrastructure for the 'smart ' grid basically ca n't be protected .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>all radio communications are totally vulnerable to being jammed.
There is no way around it.And fibres are easily cut.
Just run your truck into a pole and down they go or get your trenching tool and dig them up or if you are in the med drop your anchor.Systems fail without human intervention, something as large and ubiquitous as the power grid and the communication infrastructure for the 'smart' grid basically can't be protected.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060830</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30063522</id>
	<title>Re:How many times need this question be answered?</title>
	<author>khallow</author>
	<datestamp>1257104520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>No hacker could conceivably create a more ubiquitous and more diverse cyber challenge to the grid than Y2K.</p></div><p>Maybe that's true. Assuming it hasn't been done already, I imagine a better hacker will be made within 20 years. Automated (or even a genuine AI) hacking should be able to attack numerous points at once and scale to whatever part of the infrastructure is exposed to the outside world. They might even able to automate attacks on infrastructure that requires physical access via miniature drones. I don't think the capability exists now, even for the secret agencies, but it's not that far away, in my view.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Do you really think that a hacker could think up something more challenging than an ice storm?</p></div><p>Sure, attack during the ice storm. It just became more challenging especially if the hacker can disrupt the repair effort.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>No hacker could conceivably create a more ubiquitous and more diverse cyber challenge to the grid than Y2K.Maybe that 's true .
Assuming it has n't been done already , I imagine a better hacker will be made within 20 years .
Automated ( or even a genuine AI ) hacking should be able to attack numerous points at once and scale to whatever part of the infrastructure is exposed to the outside world .
They might even able to automate attacks on infrastructure that requires physical access via miniature drones .
I do n't think the capability exists now , even for the secret agencies , but it 's not that far away , in my view.Do you really think that a hacker could think up something more challenging than an ice storm ? Sure , attack during the ice storm .
It just became more challenging especially if the hacker can disrupt the repair effort .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No hacker could conceivably create a more ubiquitous and more diverse cyber challenge to the grid than Y2K.Maybe that's true.
Assuming it hasn't been done already, I imagine a better hacker will be made within 20 years.
Automated (or even a genuine AI) hacking should be able to attack numerous points at once and scale to whatever part of the infrastructure is exposed to the outside world.
They might even able to automate attacks on infrastructure that requires physical access via miniature drones.
I don't think the capability exists now, even for the secret agencies, but it's not that far away, in my view.Do you really think that a hacker could think up something more challenging than an ice storm?Sure, attack during the ice storm.
It just became more challenging especially if the hacker can disrupt the repair effort.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061530</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30065392</id>
	<title>We are our own worst enemy</title>
	<author>Aging\_Newbie</author>
	<datestamp>1257068640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Power plants frequently have extensive networks connecting data collectors and Man Machine Interfaces (MMIs) in control rooms and elsewhere.  The MMIs are often Windows based and have drivers for Programmable Logic Controllers (PLCs) and other devices.  Recognizing that the systems are vulnerable, enlightened engineers keep the plant systems off the Internet except for a few cases... One is the case in which control or supervision has to be remote and the second is when updating software. A third, which I hate to contemplate but it is probably happening somewhere, is that there is a hidden connection for convenience and nobody in authority knows about it.</p><p>The bad news is that people have a habit of bringing in their own laptops, connecting them to the Internet at home or even at work, and ultimately connecting them to the network.  Immediately, trojans of all sorts can be transferred to the plant assets and, if they are connected to the Internet for remote supervision/operation, a cracker owns them a few hours later.  Security is seldom taken seriously enough, and in the press to get work done, shortcuts are inevitable.  As a result, our power grid can probably be taken by anybody who has the patience to target the assets with specific attacks.  Phishing at power companies and contractors, finding techies on the Internet and attacking their home machines, penetrating the MMI software vendor sites, and various forms of social engineering can all be used.</p><p>Probably the only saving grace is that many sites are never connected to the Internet, many sites have well enforced security regulations, and focused attacks to crack into sites are a lot of work without a lot of revenue.  It is probably much more profitable to spam some phishing attack than to try to penetrate power plants.  When somebody with the skills dislikes us enough, the grid will go down.  period.</p><p>Now, solar storms can also take down the grid and we have done nothing to protect our power distribution system from major magnetic storms.  Protection is simple and fairly straightforward but it costs money and requires coordination.  Basically we need the ability to take down the grid in an orderly fashion, place bypasses/shorting bars on the critical transformers and wait for the storm to arrive.  After it passes, just bring the grid back up.  With 24-96 hours of notice from our solar observation satellites, it is eminently practical to achieve this.  While crackers can take down a plant or two, a magnetic storm can destroy major transformers for which there are no replacements.  Power will be down for months and maybe a year or more.  A major magnetic storm is a virtual certainty but we will cruise on the ragged edge of fate until it hits.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Power plants frequently have extensive networks connecting data collectors and Man Machine Interfaces ( MMIs ) in control rooms and elsewhere .
The MMIs are often Windows based and have drivers for Programmable Logic Controllers ( PLCs ) and other devices .
Recognizing that the systems are vulnerable , enlightened engineers keep the plant systems off the Internet except for a few cases... One is the case in which control or supervision has to be remote and the second is when updating software .
A third , which I hate to contemplate but it is probably happening somewhere , is that there is a hidden connection for convenience and nobody in authority knows about it.The bad news is that people have a habit of bringing in their own laptops , connecting them to the Internet at home or even at work , and ultimately connecting them to the network .
Immediately , trojans of all sorts can be transferred to the plant assets and , if they are connected to the Internet for remote supervision/operation , a cracker owns them a few hours later .
Security is seldom taken seriously enough , and in the press to get work done , shortcuts are inevitable .
As a result , our power grid can probably be taken by anybody who has the patience to target the assets with specific attacks .
Phishing at power companies and contractors , finding techies on the Internet and attacking their home machines , penetrating the MMI software vendor sites , and various forms of social engineering can all be used.Probably the only saving grace is that many sites are never connected to the Internet , many sites have well enforced security regulations , and focused attacks to crack into sites are a lot of work without a lot of revenue .
It is probably much more profitable to spam some phishing attack than to try to penetrate power plants .
When somebody with the skills dislikes us enough , the grid will go down .
period.Now , solar storms can also take down the grid and we have done nothing to protect our power distribution system from major magnetic storms .
Protection is simple and fairly straightforward but it costs money and requires coordination .
Basically we need the ability to take down the grid in an orderly fashion , place bypasses/shorting bars on the critical transformers and wait for the storm to arrive .
After it passes , just bring the grid back up .
With 24-96 hours of notice from our solar observation satellites , it is eminently practical to achieve this .
While crackers can take down a plant or two , a magnetic storm can destroy major transformers for which there are no replacements .
Power will be down for months and maybe a year or more .
A major magnetic storm is a virtual certainty but we will cruise on the ragged edge of fate until it hits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Power plants frequently have extensive networks connecting data collectors and Man Machine Interfaces (MMIs) in control rooms and elsewhere.
The MMIs are often Windows based and have drivers for Programmable Logic Controllers (PLCs) and other devices.
Recognizing that the systems are vulnerable, enlightened engineers keep the plant systems off the Internet except for a few cases... One is the case in which control or supervision has to be remote and the second is when updating software.
A third, which I hate to contemplate but it is probably happening somewhere, is that there is a hidden connection for convenience and nobody in authority knows about it.The bad news is that people have a habit of bringing in their own laptops, connecting them to the Internet at home or even at work, and ultimately connecting them to the network.
Immediately, trojans of all sorts can be transferred to the plant assets and, if they are connected to the Internet for remote supervision/operation, a cracker owns them a few hours later.
Security is seldom taken seriously enough, and in the press to get work done, shortcuts are inevitable.
As a result, our power grid can probably be taken by anybody who has the patience to target the assets with specific attacks.
Phishing at power companies and contractors, finding techies on the Internet and attacking their home machines, penetrating the MMI software vendor sites, and various forms of social engineering can all be used.Probably the only saving grace is that many sites are never connected to the Internet, many sites have well enforced security regulations, and focused attacks to crack into sites are a lot of work without a lot of revenue.
It is probably much more profitable to spam some phishing attack than to try to penetrate power plants.
When somebody with the skills dislikes us enough, the grid will go down.
period.Now, solar storms can also take down the grid and we have done nothing to protect our power distribution system from major magnetic storms.
Protection is simple and fairly straightforward but it costs money and requires coordination.
Basically we need the ability to take down the grid in an orderly fashion, place bypasses/shorting bars on the critical transformers and wait for the storm to arrive.
After it passes, just bring the grid back up.
With 24-96 hours of notice from our solar observation satellites, it is eminently practical to achieve this.
While crackers can take down a plant or two, a magnetic storm can destroy major transformers for which there are no replacements.
Power will be down for months and maybe a year or more.
A major magnetic storm is a virtual certainty but we will cruise on the ragged edge of fate until it hits.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060526</id>
	<title>Grid Fails, it happens</title>
	<author>Adovid</author>
	<datestamp>1257092400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ice storms can often make tree branches break onto powerlines and in extreme cases have put enough ice on the power lines themselves to make them sag to the ground and bend telephone poles.

Missouri and Oklahoma, a couple of years ago had one of the worst ice storms in 20 years. Followed by a few days of serious work to repair them and almost a year worth of clean up from all of the destruction that the ice made. Looking at the scene after the event it looked like a hurricane had hit.

I doubt America is in big trouble. There is no way to mount a serious DDOS attack without removing anonymity and making yourself a target by physically connecting to the grid. Americans can deal with a few days of power failure. Nature itself has already put us in a position to be ready for grid failure.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ice storms can often make tree branches break onto powerlines and in extreme cases have put enough ice on the power lines themselves to make them sag to the ground and bend telephone poles .
Missouri and Oklahoma , a couple of years ago had one of the worst ice storms in 20 years .
Followed by a few days of serious work to repair them and almost a year worth of clean up from all of the destruction that the ice made .
Looking at the scene after the event it looked like a hurricane had hit .
I doubt America is in big trouble .
There is no way to mount a serious DDOS attack without removing anonymity and making yourself a target by physically connecting to the grid .
Americans can deal with a few days of power failure .
Nature itself has already put us in a position to be ready for grid failure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ice storms can often make tree branches break onto powerlines and in extreme cases have put enough ice on the power lines themselves to make them sag to the ground and bend telephone poles.
Missouri and Oklahoma, a couple of years ago had one of the worst ice storms in 20 years.
Followed by a few days of serious work to repair them and almost a year worth of clean up from all of the destruction that the ice made.
Looking at the scene after the event it looked like a hurricane had hit.
I doubt America is in big trouble.
There is no way to mount a serious DDOS attack without removing anonymity and making yourself a target by physically connecting to the grid.
Americans can deal with a few days of power failure.
Nature itself has already put us in a position to be ready for grid failure.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30063462</id>
	<title>Re:How many times need this question be answered?</title>
	<author>Tim C</author>
	<datestamp>1257104340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>The public, on the other hand, thinks erroneously that the grid should be infinitely reliable</i></p><p>No, they're right, it should be infinitely reliable, it's just not possible (or at least not financially feasible).</p><p><i>It is a paradox that the more reliable electric supply, the less well prepared the public becomes for outages</i></p><p>That's not a paradox at all - if something never breaks, you don't have any experience of coping when it does, and you don't bother putting any contingency plans in place.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The public , on the other hand , thinks erroneously that the grid should be infinitely reliableNo , they 're right , it should be infinitely reliable , it 's just not possible ( or at least not financially feasible ) .It is a paradox that the more reliable electric supply , the less well prepared the public becomes for outagesThat 's not a paradox at all - if something never breaks , you do n't have any experience of coping when it does , and you do n't bother putting any contingency plans in place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The public, on the other hand, thinks erroneously that the grid should be infinitely reliableNo, they're right, it should be infinitely reliable, it's just not possible (or at least not financially feasible).It is a paradox that the more reliable electric supply, the less well prepared the public becomes for outagesThat's not a paradox at all - if something never breaks, you don't have any experience of coping when it does, and you don't bother putting any contingency plans in place.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061530</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061126</id>
	<title>Re:You wanna that I take down the grid?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257094860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p>If you believe in gun rights then you support terrorism in the US</p></div><p>Go fuck yourself.</p></div><p>indeed- right in the neck.</p><p>Criminals don't get guns legally, shit for brains.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you believe in gun rights then you support terrorism in the USGo fuck yourself.indeed- right in the neck.Criminals do n't get guns legally , shit for brains .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you believe in gun rights then you support terrorism in the USGo fuck yourself.indeed- right in the neck.Criminals don't get guns legally, shit for brains.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060446</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30068626</id>
	<title>Re:Old Axiom</title>
	<author>JesseL</author>
	<datestamp>1257088620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One of the products I'm involved with repairing at work is an embedded controller running Linux, that's used as a gateway for SCADA networks in power transmission systems.</p><p>I received one from the field for repair a year or so ago, and based on the host name the customer had assigned it, it looked as though it had been controlling a substation for a new 14kV line running to a major metropolitan area.</p><p>The first thing I noticed when checking it out was that the default root password hadn't been changed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One of the products I 'm involved with repairing at work is an embedded controller running Linux , that 's used as a gateway for SCADA networks in power transmission systems.I received one from the field for repair a year or so ago , and based on the host name the customer had assigned it , it looked as though it had been controlling a substation for a new 14kV line running to a major metropolitan area.The first thing I noticed when checking it out was that the default root password had n't been changed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One of the products I'm involved with repairing at work is an embedded controller running Linux, that's used as a gateway for SCADA networks in power transmission systems.I received one from the field for repair a year or so ago, and based on the host name the customer had assigned it, it looked as though it had been controlling a substation for a new 14kV line running to a major metropolitan area.The first thing I noticed when checking it out was that the default root password hadn't been changed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30059988</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30063102</id>
	<title>Re:Speaking for generation, NOT VULNERABLE</title>
	<author>nonsequitor</author>
	<datestamp>1257103020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You sound like someone who's never met a DoE red team.  Is your utility looking at the new shiny smart grid technology?  There's a blackhat talk about worm propagation through the smart grid wireless mesh.</p><p>A worm wouldn't be so bad except for the fact these smart meters are built with a remote disconnect feature.  A an engineer for a major utility, maybe you can tell the class what would happen if a hacker turned off power to 100,000 homes at the same time, all that current has to go somewhere.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You sound like someone who 's never met a DoE red team .
Is your utility looking at the new shiny smart grid technology ?
There 's a blackhat talk about worm propagation through the smart grid wireless mesh.A worm would n't be so bad except for the fact these smart meters are built with a remote disconnect feature .
A an engineer for a major utility , maybe you can tell the class what would happen if a hacker turned off power to 100,000 homes at the same time , all that current has to go somewhere .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You sound like someone who's never met a DoE red team.
Is your utility looking at the new shiny smart grid technology?
There's a blackhat talk about worm propagation through the smart grid wireless mesh.A worm wouldn't be so bad except for the fact these smart meters are built with a remote disconnect feature.
A an engineer for a major utility, maybe you can tell the class what would happen if a hacker turned off power to 100,000 homes at the same time, all that current has to go somewhere.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060416</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061566</id>
	<title>Our grid is extremely vulnerable</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257096540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You don't need hackers a couple of guys with rifles could take down the LA grid. A few dozen guys with C4 could take down most of the country for months. Demand is highest in the summer so pick the hottest day of the year for maximum chaos. People don't realize how interconnected the grid is. New york has little local power, a couple of reactors easily cut off, and LA on hot days draws power from most of the west. Lines are easy to take down but max damage are major towers in isolated locations which are hard to repair. We're fortunate terrorist are idiots. Back when I was in LA I did a job where I had to work with the water department. One of the guys casually mentioned that the main water pipes coming into town couldn't be shut off due to the pressure. Translated a charge at the base of the downhill pipe would take it out and it could only be turned off at the source. There are literally thousands of weaknesses of the sort in the country that are poorly guarded. 60 minutes did a report on unguarded chemical plants in major cities. Even the tiny town I come from had a chemical leak from a train that forced half the town to evacuate. The point is a small number of men with minimal hardware could do a lot of damage. A large number of men with decent hardware it's terrifying what could be done. You don't need to nuke a city just take out three oil refineries and we'd be all but be back to horses in months. People forget there's a small refined reserve but most of the strategic reserve is crude oil. Even that won't last all that long. Hackers are an extreme concern because they can strike from anywhere but we need to become less dependent on our national infrastructure and more localized. People can look down on alternative power but it's a major boon to national security. If everyone had solar cells on their roofs a black out might be an annoyance where as now it would cost lives if they timed it well. It's the concentration of our industries that makes us vulnerable. Take out one power plant or the right grid and we're in trouble. Spread that to a hundred mini plants and taking out half a dozen would have little affect.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do n't need hackers a couple of guys with rifles could take down the LA grid .
A few dozen guys with C4 could take down most of the country for months .
Demand is highest in the summer so pick the hottest day of the year for maximum chaos .
People do n't realize how interconnected the grid is .
New york has little local power , a couple of reactors easily cut off , and LA on hot days draws power from most of the west .
Lines are easy to take down but max damage are major towers in isolated locations which are hard to repair .
We 're fortunate terrorist are idiots .
Back when I was in LA I did a job where I had to work with the water department .
One of the guys casually mentioned that the main water pipes coming into town could n't be shut off due to the pressure .
Translated a charge at the base of the downhill pipe would take it out and it could only be turned off at the source .
There are literally thousands of weaknesses of the sort in the country that are poorly guarded .
60 minutes did a report on unguarded chemical plants in major cities .
Even the tiny town I come from had a chemical leak from a train that forced half the town to evacuate .
The point is a small number of men with minimal hardware could do a lot of damage .
A large number of men with decent hardware it 's terrifying what could be done .
You do n't need to nuke a city just take out three oil refineries and we 'd be all but be back to horses in months .
People forget there 's a small refined reserve but most of the strategic reserve is crude oil .
Even that wo n't last all that long .
Hackers are an extreme concern because they can strike from anywhere but we need to become less dependent on our national infrastructure and more localized .
People can look down on alternative power but it 's a major boon to national security .
If everyone had solar cells on their roofs a black out might be an annoyance where as now it would cost lives if they timed it well .
It 's the concentration of our industries that makes us vulnerable .
Take out one power plant or the right grid and we 're in trouble .
Spread that to a hundred mini plants and taking out half a dozen would have little affect .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You don't need hackers a couple of guys with rifles could take down the LA grid.
A few dozen guys with C4 could take down most of the country for months.
Demand is highest in the summer so pick the hottest day of the year for maximum chaos.
People don't realize how interconnected the grid is.
New york has little local power, a couple of reactors easily cut off, and LA on hot days draws power from most of the west.
Lines are easy to take down but max damage are major towers in isolated locations which are hard to repair.
We're fortunate terrorist are idiots.
Back when I was in LA I did a job where I had to work with the water department.
One of the guys casually mentioned that the main water pipes coming into town couldn't be shut off due to the pressure.
Translated a charge at the base of the downhill pipe would take it out and it could only be turned off at the source.
There are literally thousands of weaknesses of the sort in the country that are poorly guarded.
60 minutes did a report on unguarded chemical plants in major cities.
Even the tiny town I come from had a chemical leak from a train that forced half the town to evacuate.
The point is a small number of men with minimal hardware could do a lot of damage.
A large number of men with decent hardware it's terrifying what could be done.
You don't need to nuke a city just take out three oil refineries and we'd be all but be back to horses in months.
People forget there's a small refined reserve but most of the strategic reserve is crude oil.
Even that won't last all that long.
Hackers are an extreme concern because they can strike from anywhere but we need to become less dependent on our national infrastructure and more localized.
People can look down on alternative power but it's a major boon to national security.
If everyone had solar cells on their roofs a black out might be an annoyance where as now it would cost lives if they timed it well.
It's the concentration of our industries that makes us vulnerable.
Take out one power plant or the right grid and we're in trouble.
Spread that to a hundred mini plants and taking out half a dozen would have little affect.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060970</id>
	<title>Re:You wanna that I take down the grid?</title>
	<author>houstonbofh</author>
	<datestamp>1257094260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yep.  There has never been crime or terrorism where guns are illegal.  Oh, wait...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yep .
There has never been crime or terrorism where guns are illegal .
Oh , wait.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yep.
There has never been crime or terrorism where guns are illegal.
Oh, wait...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060224</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30126624</id>
	<title>Re:Who's We?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258489200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>We all make assumptions.</p></div><p>No we don't! How DARE you assume that!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>We all make assumptions.No we do n't !
How DARE you assume that !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We all make assumptions.No we don't!
How DARE you assume that!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060248</id>
	<title>Re:Old Axiom</title>
	<author>Ironsides</author>
	<datestamp>1257091080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Realistically, it depends on the network.  If I have a dedicated network and control all the terminals and there are no external access points, you're not going to have unauthorized access.  If you have something like that except you have a connection to the internet where you have no controlled access, then your axiom is true.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Realistically , it depends on the network .
If I have a dedicated network and control all the terminals and there are no external access points , you 're not going to have unauthorized access .
If you have something like that except you have a connection to the internet where you have no controlled access , then your axiom is true .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Realistically, it depends on the network.
If I have a dedicated network and control all the terminals and there are no external access points, you're not going to have unauthorized access.
If you have something like that except you have a connection to the internet where you have no controlled access, then your axiom is true.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30059988</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30062910</id>
	<title>Re:Pay me or else?</title>
	<author>Tim C</author>
	<datestamp>1257102360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>No it wouldn't deter anything. People always assume the bullet-ridden corpses were just dumb, and they will be smart and not get caught.</i></p><p>And of course there will always be rumours that the bullet-riddled corpses *were different people*, and the real ones got away and are living it up on a tropical island somewhere.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No it would n't deter anything .
People always assume the bullet-ridden corpses were just dumb , and they will be smart and not get caught.And of course there will always be rumours that the bullet-riddled corpses * were different people * , and the real ones got away and are living it up on a tropical island somewhere .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No it wouldn't deter anything.
People always assume the bullet-ridden corpses were just dumb, and they will be smart and not get caught.And of course there will always be rumours that the bullet-riddled corpses *were different people*, and the real ones got away and are living it up on a tropical island somewhere.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060138</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30064734</id>
	<title>I'd say our grid is pretty safe</title>
	<author>JohnWiney</author>
	<datestamp>1257108900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>because attackers are far more likely the U.S. system.

Oh - wait. By "our" you are assuming only Americans read Slashdot.</htmltext>
<tokenext>because attackers are far more likely the U.S. system . Oh - wait .
By " our " you are assuming only Americans read Slashdot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>because attackers are far more likely the U.S. system.

Oh - wait.
By "our" you are assuming only Americans read Slashdot.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061158</id>
	<title>ComEd / Exelon had a dual grid in 2003 and has bee</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257094980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>ComEd / Exelon had a dual grid in 2003 and has been building a lot more lines after that as well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>ComEd / Exelon had a dual grid in 2003 and has been building a lot more lines after that as well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>ComEd / Exelon had a dual grid in 2003 and has been building a lot more lines after that as well.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061696</id>
	<title>Re:How vulnerable is *your* power grid?</title>
	<author>FreeUser</author>
	<datestamp>1257097020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I'm writing from the UK, so no matter what happens to *your* power grid, it won't affect *our* power grid.</i></p><p><i>Before you can get a sensible answer, you need to learn to ask a sensible question.</i></p><p>He asked a perfectly sensible question.  It's called context, something most of us have understood implicitly since childhood.</p><p>In case you can't be bothered to look around, you've logged into and posted on an American website.  Yes, it may have an international readership, but it is located in America, run by Americans, and the post is made by another American.  If you got your head out of our self-righteous ass perhaps you'd make less of ass yourself when browsing non-UK sites.</p><p>As for *our* grid (I happen to reside in the UK btw, but unlike you at least know enough not to lambast the British for posting British-centric questions on British Websites, or Americans for posting American-centric questions on) American websites) here in the UK, yes, we might not be as vulnerable to single-point failures or software hackery as those in the states, but given *our* current lack of a coherent energy policy, we are vulnerable to having zero electricity for extended periods of time in the coming years, due to insufficient power to meet *our* needs.  So if I were you I'd be a little less cocky.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm writing from the UK , so no matter what happens to * your * power grid , it wo n't affect * our * power grid.Before you can get a sensible answer , you need to learn to ask a sensible question.He asked a perfectly sensible question .
It 's called context , something most of us have understood implicitly since childhood.In case you ca n't be bothered to look around , you 've logged into and posted on an American website .
Yes , it may have an international readership , but it is located in America , run by Americans , and the post is made by another American .
If you got your head out of our self-righteous ass perhaps you 'd make less of ass yourself when browsing non-UK sites.As for * our * grid ( I happen to reside in the UK btw , but unlike you at least know enough not to lambast the British for posting British-centric questions on British Websites , or Americans for posting American-centric questions on ) American websites ) here in the UK , yes , we might not be as vulnerable to single-point failures or software hackery as those in the states , but given * our * current lack of a coherent energy policy , we are vulnerable to having zero electricity for extended periods of time in the coming years , due to insufficient power to meet * our * needs .
So if I were you I 'd be a little less cocky .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm writing from the UK, so no matter what happens to *your* power grid, it won't affect *our* power grid.Before you can get a sensible answer, you need to learn to ask a sensible question.He asked a perfectly sensible question.
It's called context, something most of us have understood implicitly since childhood.In case you can't be bothered to look around, you've logged into and posted on an American website.
Yes, it may have an international readership, but it is located in America, run by Americans, and the post is made by another American.
If you got your head out of our self-righteous ass perhaps you'd make less of ass yourself when browsing non-UK sites.As for *our* grid (I happen to reside in the UK btw, but unlike you at least know enough not to lambast the British for posting British-centric questions on British Websites, or Americans for posting American-centric questions on) American websites) here in the UK, yes, we might not be as vulnerable to single-point failures or software hackery as those in the states, but given *our* current lack of a coherent energy policy, we are vulnerable to having zero electricity for extended periods of time in the coming years, due to insufficient power to meet *our* needs.
So if I were you I'd be a little less cocky.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060240</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060562</id>
	<title>Re:You wanna that I take down the grid?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257092520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If you believe in gun rights then you support terrorism in the US</p></div><p>Although this is flamebait, it's not entirely untrue. It is however an argument in favor of personal gun ownership in my book. You know how they call suicide bombers cowards and terrorists? Well, I call cruise missile launchers cowards and terrorists. Terrorism is just a word, and it's basically used by governments to describe the only type of military attack remaining to a disadvantaged group. If you can afford to launch a cruise missile and blow someone up 2,000 miles away then you're the dominant power, but if you have to strap explosives to people then you're the terrorists.</p><p>The standard argument for gun ownership is that an armed populace is the only possible antidote to fascism. It applies here, as well. It's pretty hilarious that you're going on about this so soon after Guy Fawkes day. Were you saving it?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you believe in gun rights then you support terrorism in the USAlthough this is flamebait , it 's not entirely untrue .
It is however an argument in favor of personal gun ownership in my book .
You know how they call suicide bombers cowards and terrorists ?
Well , I call cruise missile launchers cowards and terrorists .
Terrorism is just a word , and it 's basically used by governments to describe the only type of military attack remaining to a disadvantaged group .
If you can afford to launch a cruise missile and blow someone up 2,000 miles away then you 're the dominant power , but if you have to strap explosives to people then you 're the terrorists.The standard argument for gun ownership is that an armed populace is the only possible antidote to fascism .
It applies here , as well .
It 's pretty hilarious that you 're going on about this so soon after Guy Fawkes day .
Were you saving it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you believe in gun rights then you support terrorism in the USAlthough this is flamebait, it's not entirely untrue.
It is however an argument in favor of personal gun ownership in my book.
You know how they call suicide bombers cowards and terrorists?
Well, I call cruise missile launchers cowards and terrorists.
Terrorism is just a word, and it's basically used by governments to describe the only type of military attack remaining to a disadvantaged group.
If you can afford to launch a cruise missile and blow someone up 2,000 miles away then you're the dominant power, but if you have to strap explosives to people then you're the terrorists.The standard argument for gun ownership is that an armed populace is the only possible antidote to fascism.
It applies here, as well.
It's pretty hilarious that you're going on about this so soon after Guy Fawkes day.
Were you saving it?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060224</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060416</id>
	<title>Speaking for generation, NOT VULNERABLE</title>
	<author>rift321</author>
	<datestamp>1257091860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Speaking as a controls engineer for a major utility contractor, the control systems for power plants are completely isolated from the internet... it's common sense.  There are security consultants out there feeding FUD to the public about the vulnerability of these control systems to viruses planted (either knowingly or unknowingly) by plant personnel.  Well, if someone had intimate knowledge of the software AND close ties to the operators AND really thought that bringing down the plant would be a good way screw everyone over, despite the fact that when things go wrong, all valves and systems return to a fail-safe position, AND once the software was re-installed, everything is easily restarted...</p><p>Yeah, I guess it could happen.  As far as the grid is concerned, I'm *guessing* that a lot of people were influenced by the same method of thinking.</p><p>Look, if anyone really wants bring down the power grid, we should be worried about a physical attack WAY more than an electronic one.  I just can't conceive of how our systems are as vulnerable as people say they are.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Speaking as a controls engineer for a major utility contractor , the control systems for power plants are completely isolated from the internet... it 's common sense .
There are security consultants out there feeding FUD to the public about the vulnerability of these control systems to viruses planted ( either knowingly or unknowingly ) by plant personnel .
Well , if someone had intimate knowledge of the software AND close ties to the operators AND really thought that bringing down the plant would be a good way screw everyone over , despite the fact that when things go wrong , all valves and systems return to a fail-safe position , AND once the software was re-installed , everything is easily restarted...Yeah , I guess it could happen .
As far as the grid is concerned , I 'm * guessing * that a lot of people were influenced by the same method of thinking.Look , if anyone really wants bring down the power grid , we should be worried about a physical attack WAY more than an electronic one .
I just ca n't conceive of how our systems are as vulnerable as people say they are .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Speaking as a controls engineer for a major utility contractor, the control systems for power plants are completely isolated from the internet... it's common sense.
There are security consultants out there feeding FUD to the public about the vulnerability of these control systems to viruses planted (either knowingly or unknowingly) by plant personnel.
Well, if someone had intimate knowledge of the software AND close ties to the operators AND really thought that bringing down the plant would be a good way screw everyone over, despite the fact that when things go wrong, all valves and systems return to a fail-safe position, AND once the software was re-installed, everything is easily restarted...Yeah, I guess it could happen.
As far as the grid is concerned, I'm *guessing* that a lot of people were influenced by the same method of thinking.Look, if anyone really wants bring down the power grid, we should be worried about a physical attack WAY more than an electronic one.
I just can't conceive of how our systems are as vulnerable as people say they are.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30062566</id>
	<title>Re:Pay me or else?</title>
	<author>confused one</author>
	<datestamp>1257100680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bullet ridden corpse isn't explicit enough.  For clarity you MUST place their severed head on a pike in public view near the city gates, in front of city hall, or the Capital building as is appropriate.  You must then give a <i>public</i> declaration explaining that this is how all who commit similar crimes will be treated.  Finally, you must send a public decree to all parts of the land, along with proof that of the seriousness of the decree (a severed limb might suffice).</p><p>Even then, a few people won't get the point.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bullet ridden corpse is n't explicit enough .
For clarity you MUST place their severed head on a pike in public view near the city gates , in front of city hall , or the Capital building as is appropriate .
You must then give a public declaration explaining that this is how all who commit similar crimes will be treated .
Finally , you must send a public decree to all parts of the land , along with proof that of the seriousness of the decree ( a severed limb might suffice ) .Even then , a few people wo n't get the point .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bullet ridden corpse isn't explicit enough.
For clarity you MUST place their severed head on a pike in public view near the city gates, in front of city hall, or the Capital building as is appropriate.
You must then give a public declaration explaining that this is how all who commit similar crimes will be treated.
Finally, you must send a public decree to all parts of the land, along with proof that of the seriousness of the decree (a severed limb might suffice).Even then, a few people won't get the point.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060016</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060608</id>
	<title>Re:How vulnerable is *your* power grid?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257092700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> I'm writing from the UK, so no matter what happens to *your* power grid, it won't affect *our* power grid.</p><p>Before you can get a sensible answer, you need to learn to ask a sensible question.</p><p>In any event, *your* power grid has already proven to be incredibly vulnerable to everything from single points of failure to social engineering for profit (Enron) so, quite frankly, worrying about the vulnerability of *your* power grid to hacking is like wondering about the vulnerability of a shiny new laptop left unattended on a car front seat to hacking... you have other issues to need to address first.</p><p>It is like wondering how vulnerable *your* road bridges and infrastructure are to hacking, while completely ignoring the fact that they are falling down by themselves due to lack of maintenance.</p></div><p>wtf, you cocky British troll...</p><p>You are glossing over the fact that *our* country is about 40 times bigger, has about 10 times as many major bridges, and has several thousands more miles of roadways than *your* country... maintenance is a bit more costly and spread thin.</p><p>And as much as you'd like to think *your* country has it all figured out, <a href="http://social.waveenergytoday.com/news/\%C2\%A347-billion-needed-power-grid" title="waveenergytoday.com" rel="nofollow">guess again</a> [waveenergytoday.com].</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm writing from the UK , so no matter what happens to * your * power grid , it wo n't affect * our * power grid.Before you can get a sensible answer , you need to learn to ask a sensible question.In any event , * your * power grid has already proven to be incredibly vulnerable to everything from single points of failure to social engineering for profit ( Enron ) so , quite frankly , worrying about the vulnerability of * your * power grid to hacking is like wondering about the vulnerability of a shiny new laptop left unattended on a car front seat to hacking... you have other issues to need to address first.It is like wondering how vulnerable * your * road bridges and infrastructure are to hacking , while completely ignoring the fact that they are falling down by themselves due to lack of maintenance.wtf , you cocky British troll...You are glossing over the fact that * our * country is about 40 times bigger , has about 10 times as many major bridges , and has several thousands more miles of roadways than * your * country... maintenance is a bit more costly and spread thin.And as much as you 'd like to think * your * country has it all figured out , guess again [ waveenergytoday.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I'm writing from the UK, so no matter what happens to *your* power grid, it won't affect *our* power grid.Before you can get a sensible answer, you need to learn to ask a sensible question.In any event, *your* power grid has already proven to be incredibly vulnerable to everything from single points of failure to social engineering for profit (Enron) so, quite frankly, worrying about the vulnerability of *your* power grid to hacking is like wondering about the vulnerability of a shiny new laptop left unattended on a car front seat to hacking... you have other issues to need to address first.It is like wondering how vulnerable *your* road bridges and infrastructure are to hacking, while completely ignoring the fact that they are falling down by themselves due to lack of maintenance.wtf, you cocky British troll...You are glossing over the fact that *our* country is about 40 times bigger, has about 10 times as many major bridges, and has several thousands more miles of roadways than *your* country... maintenance is a bit more costly and spread thin.And as much as you'd like to think *your* country has it all figured out, guess again [waveenergytoday.com].
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060240</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060196</id>
	<title>Re:Who's We?</title>
	<author>commodore64\_love</author>
	<datestamp>1257090900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Let please me know from where you have English tolearn.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Let please me know from where you have English tolearn .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let please me know from where you have English tolearn.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060054</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30063310</id>
	<title>Re:fear mongering. plain and simple</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257103860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>ok, i'm brazilian as well and I agree with everything you said but the source; estadao is right-wing all the way.</htmltext>
<tokenext>ok , i 'm brazilian as well and I agree with everything you said but the source ; estadao is right-wing all the way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>ok, i'm brazilian as well and I agree with everything you said but the source; estadao is right-wing all the way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060634</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060890</id>
	<title>Don't need hackers...</title>
	<author>Slipped\_Disk</author>
	<datestamp>1257093900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>... here in NY our power grid is blown up by the trifecta of evil: Rats, Squirrels and Wind.

If you want to spend trillions securing the infrastructure, make it rodent proof and bury it.


(California is on their own -- the "bury it" idea doesn't work too well when the ground moves...)</htmltext>
<tokenext>... here in NY our power grid is blown up by the trifecta of evil : Rats , Squirrels and Wind .
If you want to spend trillions securing the infrastructure , make it rodent proof and bury it .
( California is on their own -- the " bury it " idea does n't work too well when the ground moves... )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... here in NY our power grid is blown up by the trifecta of evil: Rats, Squirrels and Wind.
If you want to spend trillions securing the infrastructure, make it rodent proof and bury it.
(California is on their own -- the "bury it" idea doesn't work too well when the ground moves...)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060326</id>
	<title>I dunno, who are you?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257091440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Who are you talking to? Even if slashdot is physically hosted in the US, its the middle of the night there. We're all over here right now:<br><a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&amp;source=s\_q&amp;hl=en&amp;geocode=&amp;q=europe&amp;sll=37.0625,-95.677068&amp;sspn=22.094127,56.513672&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=&amp;hnear=Europe&amp;z=2" title="google.com" rel="nofollow">http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&amp;source=s\_q&amp;hl=en&amp;geocode=&amp;q=europe&amp;sll=37.0625,-95.677068&amp;sspn=22.094127,56.513672&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=&amp;hnear=Europe&amp;z=2</a> [google.com]<br>Global village etc. Get with the times.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Who are you talking to ?
Even if slashdot is physically hosted in the US , its the middle of the night there .
We 're all over here right now : http : //maps.google.com/maps ? f = q&amp;source = s \ _q&amp;hl = en&amp;geocode = &amp;q = europe&amp;sll = 37.0625,-95.677068&amp;sspn = 22.094127,56.513672&amp;ie = UTF8&amp;hq = &amp;hnear = Europe&amp;z = 2 [ google.com ] Global village etc .
Get with the times .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Who are you talking to?
Even if slashdot is physically hosted in the US, its the middle of the night there.
We're all over here right now:http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&amp;source=s\_q&amp;hl=en&amp;geocode=&amp;q=europe&amp;sll=37.0625,-95.677068&amp;sspn=22.094127,56.513672&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=&amp;hnear=Europe&amp;z=2 [google.com]Global village etc.
Get with the times.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060268</id>
	<title>As a european, looking at US infrastructure...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257091140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...I would also be very worried about the fact that you use suspended power wires even inside many of your larger cities (check out Miami, f.e. - sheesh!), as opposed to dug-down cabling. In the particular country I live in (one of the scandinavian ones), there isn't a single suspended wire in any city, outside the fenced high-voltage transformer station areas. Havoc can wrought inside city limits, without an arsenal, in ways easier than hacking your grid.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...I would also be very worried about the fact that you use suspended power wires even inside many of your larger cities ( check out Miami , f.e .
- sheesh !
) , as opposed to dug-down cabling .
In the particular country I live in ( one of the scandinavian ones ) , there is n't a single suspended wire in any city , outside the fenced high-voltage transformer station areas .
Havoc can wrought inside city limits , without an arsenal , in ways easier than hacking your grid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...I would also be very worried about the fact that you use suspended power wires even inside many of your larger cities (check out Miami, f.e.
- sheesh!
), as opposed to dug-down cabling.
In the particular country I live in (one of the scandinavian ones), there isn't a single suspended wire in any city, outside the fenced high-voltage transformer station areas.
Havoc can wrought inside city limits, without an arsenal, in ways easier than hacking your grid.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30062848</id>
	<title>Re:Speaking for generation, NOT VULNERABLE</title>
	<author>Blakey Rat</author>
	<datestamp>1257102060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, but how hard would it be to place some explosives on a few high tension lines? You know, the kind that go through extremely rural areas, have completely open access roads, and are rarely inspected? (And I'm sure it would be easy to hide the bomb anyway, as the "inspection" probably consists of a quick eyeballing and nothing more.)</p><p>I don't think anybody cares about hackers, the real danger is terrorists taking down the high tension lines. That could cause immense damage.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , but how hard would it be to place some explosives on a few high tension lines ?
You know , the kind that go through extremely rural areas , have completely open access roads , and are rarely inspected ?
( And I 'm sure it would be easy to hide the bomb anyway , as the " inspection " probably consists of a quick eyeballing and nothing more .
) I do n't think anybody cares about hackers , the real danger is terrorists taking down the high tension lines .
That could cause immense damage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, but how hard would it be to place some explosives on a few high tension lines?
You know, the kind that go through extremely rural areas, have completely open access roads, and are rarely inspected?
(And I'm sure it would be easy to hide the bomb anyway, as the "inspection" probably consists of a quick eyeballing and nothing more.
)I don't think anybody cares about hackers, the real danger is terrorists taking down the high tension lines.
That could cause immense damage.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060416</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061792</id>
	<title>Re:Speaking for generation, NOT VULNERABLE</title>
	<author>sampson7</author>
	<datestamp>1257097320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>How long ago was this talk?  Only in the past year or so have power plants been subject to mandatory Cyber Infrastructure Protection standards (CIP standards -- another acroynm to impress your friends with).  Another set of standards is set to take effect January 1, 2010.  The new standards require maintenance of a physical permimeter around all critical cyber assets, as well as controlled computer access.  My experience (with a large company owning generation stations) is that cyber security has come a long way in even the past six months, and that your auditor talk may be slightly out of date.<br> <br>Also, my own personal opinion is that several of the DHS "studies" of grid vulnerability are not entirely reliable, and in some cases were fairly overblown.  It's one thing to "attack" a power plant in a controlled laboratory environment, and another to execute such a scheme in the real world.  <br> <br>That being said, there is always room for improvement, and it's something we take seriously.  And all of the incentives are to improve security.  First, the plant loses money every time it don't operate.  And not just immediate revenues, but future revenues are often based on past on-line performance metrics.  Second, a cyber attack could cause millions in physical hardware damage -- these are incredibly complicated machines, and one little disturbance could cause serious damage that could keep it off-line for weeks or months.  Third, in some cases, power plants are subject to up to $1 million a day per incident in fines if we don't comply with cyber regulations.</htmltext>
<tokenext>How long ago was this talk ?
Only in the past year or so have power plants been subject to mandatory Cyber Infrastructure Protection standards ( CIP standards -- another acroynm to impress your friends with ) .
Another set of standards is set to take effect January 1 , 2010 .
The new standards require maintenance of a physical permimeter around all critical cyber assets , as well as controlled computer access .
My experience ( with a large company owning generation stations ) is that cyber security has come a long way in even the past six months , and that your auditor talk may be slightly out of date .
Also , my own personal opinion is that several of the DHS " studies " of grid vulnerability are not entirely reliable , and in some cases were fairly overblown .
It 's one thing to " attack " a power plant in a controlled laboratory environment , and another to execute such a scheme in the real world .
That being said , there is always room for improvement , and it 's something we take seriously .
And all of the incentives are to improve security .
First , the plant loses money every time it do n't operate .
And not just immediate revenues , but future revenues are often based on past on-line performance metrics .
Second , a cyber attack could cause millions in physical hardware damage -- these are incredibly complicated machines , and one little disturbance could cause serious damage that could keep it off-line for weeks or months .
Third , in some cases , power plants are subject to up to $ 1 million a day per incident in fines if we do n't comply with cyber regulations .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How long ago was this talk?
Only in the past year or so have power plants been subject to mandatory Cyber Infrastructure Protection standards (CIP standards -- another acroynm to impress your friends with).
Another set of standards is set to take effect January 1, 2010.
The new standards require maintenance of a physical permimeter around all critical cyber assets, as well as controlled computer access.
My experience (with a large company owning generation stations) is that cyber security has come a long way in even the past six months, and that your auditor talk may be slightly out of date.
Also, my own personal opinion is that several of the DHS "studies" of grid vulnerability are not entirely reliable, and in some cases were fairly overblown.
It's one thing to "attack" a power plant in a controlled laboratory environment, and another to execute such a scheme in the real world.
That being said, there is always room for improvement, and it's something we take seriously.
And all of the incentives are to improve security.
First, the plant loses money every time it don't operate.
And not just immediate revenues, but future revenues are often based on past on-line performance metrics.
Second, a cyber attack could cause millions in physical hardware damage -- these are incredibly complicated machines, and one little disturbance could cause serious damage that could keep it off-line for weeks or months.
Third, in some cases, power plants are subject to up to $1 million a day per incident in fines if we don't comply with cyber regulations.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061278</id>
	<title>Re:Threats to Grid overstated.</title>
	<author>darthnoodles</author>
	<datestamp>1257095520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast\_Blackout\_of\_2003" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast\_Blackout\_of\_2003</a> [wikipedia.org] <p>
This tends to disagree with your first point.</p><p>
Sure it was only a "section" of the country...but it was 55 million people.  Can't really call that kind of think "overstated."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast \ _Blackout \ _of \ _2003 [ wikipedia.org ] This tends to disagree with your first point .
Sure it was only a " section " of the country...but it was 55 million people .
Ca n't really call that kind of think " overstated .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast\_Blackout\_of\_2003 [wikipedia.org] 
This tends to disagree with your first point.
Sure it was only a "section" of the country...but it was 55 million people.
Can't really call that kind of think "overstated.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060452</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060682</id>
	<title>Why worry about the grid being attacked?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257093060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the worry is about failure of the grid and how that will damage YOU personally - why don't you, in the Open Source Spirit - generate your own power?</p><p>Solar PV, Wind, even your own gas powered generator.   Such will keep you in good stead when ice storms, high winds or even small airplanes take out the local power lines.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the worry is about failure of the grid and how that will damage YOU personally - why do n't you , in the Open Source Spirit - generate your own power ? Solar PV , Wind , even your own gas powered generator .
Such will keep you in good stead when ice storms , high winds or even small airplanes take out the local power lines .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the worry is about failure of the grid and how that will damage YOU personally - why don't you, in the Open Source Spirit - generate your own power?Solar PV, Wind, even your own gas powered generator.
Such will keep you in good stead when ice storms, high winds or even small airplanes take out the local power lines.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060938</id>
	<title>Re:How vulnerable is *your* power grid?</title>
	<author>dpilot</author>
	<datestamp>1257094080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Won't deny a thing you say about *our* grid and infrastructure, in fact I generally agree with you.</p><p>But what makes you think that *your* grid and infrastructure are in any better shape or state of maintenance?</p><p>Incidentally, a few years back I participated in a table-top exercise modeling a "potential cyber-incident".  One of the people present was an IT guy who manages the job for *my* power grid.  The guy knew his stuff, and the things he said made me feel really good about the command and control for *my* power grid.  For one thing, there's no linkage between the internet and the command and control network.  But he had some real horror stories regarding auditing some other power networks.  In one place they recommended routing a network connection through a firewall machine.  Later when viewing the results of their recommendations, they saw the ethernet cable go in one side of the firewall machine - and out the other.  (physically, not electrically or logically)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wo n't deny a thing you say about * our * grid and infrastructure , in fact I generally agree with you.But what makes you think that * your * grid and infrastructure are in any better shape or state of maintenance ? Incidentally , a few years back I participated in a table-top exercise modeling a " potential cyber-incident " .
One of the people present was an IT guy who manages the job for * my * power grid .
The guy knew his stuff , and the things he said made me feel really good about the command and control for * my * power grid .
For one thing , there 's no linkage between the internet and the command and control network .
But he had some real horror stories regarding auditing some other power networks .
In one place they recommended routing a network connection through a firewall machine .
Later when viewing the results of their recommendations , they saw the ethernet cable go in one side of the firewall machine - and out the other .
( physically , not electrically or logically )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Won't deny a thing you say about *our* grid and infrastructure, in fact I generally agree with you.But what makes you think that *your* grid and infrastructure are in any better shape or state of maintenance?Incidentally, a few years back I participated in a table-top exercise modeling a "potential cyber-incident".
One of the people present was an IT guy who manages the job for *my* power grid.
The guy knew his stuff, and the things he said made me feel really good about the command and control for *my* power grid.
For one thing, there's no linkage between the internet and the command and control network.
But he had some real horror stories regarding auditing some other power networks.
In one place they recommended routing a network connection through a firewall machine.
Later when viewing the results of their recommendations, they saw the ethernet cable go in one side of the firewall machine - and out the other.
(physically, not electrically or logically)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060240</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30063076</id>
	<title>Re:One word: Enron</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257102960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, that's a bit misleading. For example, only a small part (I think 7\%) of Pennsylvania before the controlling RTO, PJM, spotted it and stopped it. That's why you have human dispatchers.</p><p>The Wikipedia article on the blackout is fairly thin on some of the details. By the way, remember that the US grid is really three major interconnections (Eastern, Western, and Texas [ERCOT]). NYISO and ISO-NE were the primarily affected territories. MISO, PJM, SPP, etc., were mostly or wholly unaffected. Everyone who has been posting about the blackout of 2003 proving you can "take out the grid" should look at the map of "the grid" and rethink their stance.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , that 's a bit misleading .
For example , only a small part ( I think 7 \ % ) of Pennsylvania before the controlling RTO , PJM , spotted it and stopped it .
That 's why you have human dispatchers.The Wikipedia article on the blackout is fairly thin on some of the details .
By the way , remember that the US grid is really three major interconnections ( Eastern , Western , and Texas [ ERCOT ] ) .
NYISO and ISO-NE were the primarily affected territories .
MISO , PJM , SPP , etc. , were mostly or wholly unaffected .
Everyone who has been posting about the blackout of 2003 proving you can " take out the grid " should look at the map of " the grid " and rethink their stance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, that's a bit misleading.
For example, only a small part (I think 7\%) of Pennsylvania before the controlling RTO, PJM, spotted it and stopped it.
That's why you have human dispatchers.The Wikipedia article on the blackout is fairly thin on some of the details.
By the way, remember that the US grid is really three major interconnections (Eastern, Western, and Texas [ERCOT]).
NYISO and ISO-NE were the primarily affected territories.
MISO, PJM, SPP, etc., were mostly or wholly unaffected.
Everyone who has been posting about the blackout of 2003 proving you can "take out the grid" should look at the map of "the grid" and rethink their stance.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061024</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30062470</id>
	<title>Power is overrated</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257100140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Power is overrated, even this computer will work without it.  All I have to is unplug this cor</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Power is overrated , even this computer will work without it .
All I have to is unplug this cor</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Power is overrated, even this computer will work without it.
All I have to is unplug this cor</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060000</id>
	<title>One word: Enron</title>
	<author>goodmanj</author>
	<datestamp>1257089940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hijacking the power grid and forcing entire states to pay ransom or suffer brownouts?  Such a thing has never happened before!</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death\_Star\_(Business)" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death\_Star\_(Business)</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hijacking the power grid and forcing entire states to pay ransom or suffer brownouts ?
Such a thing has never happened before ! http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death \ _Star \ _ ( Business ) [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hijacking the power grid and forcing entire states to pay ransom or suffer brownouts?
Such a thing has never happened before!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death\_Star\_(Business) [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30066938</id>
	<title>Re:You wanna that I take down the grid?</title>
	<author>greyhueofdoubt</author>
	<datestamp>1257076140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You know how they call suicide bombers cowards and terrorists? Well, I call cruise missile launchers cowards and terrorists.</p></div><p>I think the distinction lies not in ability but intent. We do not send cruise missiles 1,000 miles just to land in a crowded disco. I won't deny that these things happen by accident sometimes; however, it is never our mission to specifically seek out and destroy civilian targets based on the likelihood of maximum death, injury, and terror.</p><p>Dropping a bomb on an insurgent camp probably does cause terror among the insurgents, but those insurgents represent a threat. Drunk dancers in a bar in Mali represent a threat to no one but their own dignity.</p><p>That is the difference.</p><p>-b</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You know how they call suicide bombers cowards and terrorists ?
Well , I call cruise missile launchers cowards and terrorists.I think the distinction lies not in ability but intent .
We do not send cruise missiles 1,000 miles just to land in a crowded disco .
I wo n't deny that these things happen by accident sometimes ; however , it is never our mission to specifically seek out and destroy civilian targets based on the likelihood of maximum death , injury , and terror.Dropping a bomb on an insurgent camp probably does cause terror among the insurgents , but those insurgents represent a threat .
Drunk dancers in a bar in Mali represent a threat to no one but their own dignity.That is the difference.-b</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know how they call suicide bombers cowards and terrorists?
Well, I call cruise missile launchers cowards and terrorists.I think the distinction lies not in ability but intent.
We do not send cruise missiles 1,000 miles just to land in a crowded disco.
I won't deny that these things happen by accident sometimes; however, it is never our mission to specifically seek out and destroy civilian targets based on the likelihood of maximum death, injury, and terror.Dropping a bomb on an insurgent camp probably does cause terror among the insurgents, but those insurgents represent a threat.
Drunk dancers in a bar in Mali represent a threat to no one but their own dignity.That is the difference.-b
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060562</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30062638</id>
	<title>Re:Speaking for generation, NOT VULNERABLE</title>
	<author>DerekLyons</author>
	<datestamp>1257101160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And Slashdot, being largely anti government and anti corporate eats that FUD like candy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And Slashdot , being largely anti government and anti corporate eats that FUD like candy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And Slashdot, being largely anti government and anti corporate eats that FUD like candy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060416</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061558</id>
	<title>Battlestar Galactica?</title>
	<author>beatsme</author>
	<datestamp>1257096540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hey, this very logic once saved the human race, afterall.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hey , this very logic once saved the human race , afterall .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hey, this very logic once saved the human race, afterall.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060284</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060112</id>
	<title>Wired or unwired?</title>
	<author>avm</author>
	<datestamp>1257090600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't know about the connectivity of power stations/substations, but I've seen quite a few that appear very vulnerable to physical damage by virtue of location (eg. Not enough space between fence and components, or down an embankment from a quiet unlit street. Seems like it wouldn't take much more than a steel bar and a good arm to cause some pretty spectacular fireworks and a whole lot of repairs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know about the connectivity of power stations/substations , but I 've seen quite a few that appear very vulnerable to physical damage by virtue of location ( eg .
Not enough space between fence and components , or down an embankment from a quiet unlit street .
Seems like it would n't take much more than a steel bar and a good arm to cause some pretty spectacular fireworks and a whole lot of repairs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know about the connectivity of power stations/substations, but I've seen quite a few that appear very vulnerable to physical damage by virtue of location (eg.
Not enough space between fence and components, or down an embankment from a quiet unlit street.
Seems like it wouldn't take much more than a steel bar and a good arm to cause some pretty spectacular fireworks and a whole lot of repairs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060976</id>
	<title>About the only nation that will be safe is .....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257094260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>China. THey not only make the equipment loaded with worms/virus, but have a massive firewall that operates TWO WAYs. If and when they decide to launch an attack on a country or group, they will simply turn their firewall on (which was made with equipment from their country), and then send out worms to deactivate any other firewall that they want to control. The west has taken an attitude that it will not happen, so security is a joke. The fact that the west depends so heavily on MS should speak loudly.</htmltext>
<tokenext>China .
THey not only make the equipment loaded with worms/virus , but have a massive firewall that operates TWO WAYs .
If and when they decide to launch an attack on a country or group , they will simply turn their firewall on ( which was made with equipment from their country ) , and then send out worms to deactivate any other firewall that they want to control .
The west has taken an attitude that it will not happen , so security is a joke .
The fact that the west depends so heavily on MS should speak loudly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>China.
THey not only make the equipment loaded with worms/virus, but have a massive firewall that operates TWO WAYs.
If and when they decide to launch an attack on a country or group, they will simply turn their firewall on (which was made with equipment from their country), and then send out worms to deactivate any other firewall that they want to control.
The west has taken an attitude that it will not happen, so security is a joke.
The fact that the west depends so heavily on MS should speak loudly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060348</id>
	<title>Re:Pay me or else?</title>
	<author>omb</author>
	<datestamp>1257091500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>The bullet ridden corpses wont do it again,<br><br>If you look at the politically correct response to the Somali pirates, you see why the west has to develop an effective and cheap response to this kind of crap.<br><br>Special Services, shoot on sight, if you are in the wrong place, or a tac nucke, but something that means we dont have to start another war or nation building experiment (vide Iran hostages and Reagan).</htmltext>
<tokenext>The bullet ridden corpses wont do it again,If you look at the politically correct response to the Somali pirates , you see why the west has to develop an effective and cheap response to this kind of crap.Special Services , shoot on sight , if you are in the wrong place , or a tac nucke , but something that means we dont have to start another war or nation building experiment ( vide Iran hostages and Reagan ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The bullet ridden corpses wont do it again,If you look at the politically correct response to the Somali pirates, you see why the west has to develop an effective and cheap response to this kind of crap.Special Services, shoot on sight, if you are in the wrong place, or a tac nucke, but something that means we dont have to start another war or nation building experiment (vide Iran hostages and Reagan).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060138</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061082</id>
	<title>Re:Pay me or else?</title>
	<author>Abstrackt</author>
	<datestamp>1257094620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>As for heating problems, I have a backup propane heater so even if the central electric died, I won't freeze. Worse-case I go sit in my car and get warm there. People should always have a backup plan.</p></div><p>A heater or car can only run for so long.  If you want a real backup plan I would suggest something passive (e.g. proper clothing).  If you live in a climate where freezing to death in an emergency is a real concern odds are you already have everything you need to stay warm enough to survive.  Just make sure you don't put too much or too little on at a time.  If you put too much on you sweat and if you put too little on you get chilled, and once either of those happens it's hard to get comfortable again.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As for heating problems , I have a backup propane heater so even if the central electric died , I wo n't freeze .
Worse-case I go sit in my car and get warm there .
People should always have a backup plan.A heater or car can only run for so long .
If you want a real backup plan I would suggest something passive ( e.g .
proper clothing ) .
If you live in a climate where freezing to death in an emergency is a real concern odds are you already have everything you need to stay warm enough to survive .
Just make sure you do n't put too much or too little on at a time .
If you put too much on you sweat and if you put too little on you get chilled , and once either of those happens it 's hard to get comfortable again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As for heating problems, I have a backup propane heater so even if the central electric died, I won't freeze.
Worse-case I go sit in my car and get warm there.
People should always have a backup plan.A heater or car can only run for so long.
If you want a real backup plan I would suggest something passive (e.g.
proper clothing).
If you live in a climate where freezing to death in an emergency is a real concern odds are you already have everything you need to stay warm enough to survive.
Just make sure you don't put too much or too little on at a time.
If you put too much on you sweat and if you put too little on you get chilled, and once either of those happens it's hard to get comfortable again.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060138</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060606</id>
	<title>Re:You wanna that I take down the grid?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257092700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If you believe in gun rights then you support terrorism in the US</p></div><p>That one is going to let some Al-Qaeda people confused.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you believe in gun rights then you support terrorism in the USThat one is going to let some Al-Qaeda people confused .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you believe in gun rights then you support terrorism in the USThat one is going to let some Al-Qaeda people confused.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060224</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061100</id>
	<title>Re:A bigger threat</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257094740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You got to be kidding.<br>Enron was so happy with the deregulation that Bush gave them.<br>You might recall that there were essentially no problems with black/brown-outs before Enron took over California.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You got to be kidding.Enron was so happy with the deregulation that Bush gave them.You might recall that there were essentially no problems with black/brown-outs before Enron took over California .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You got to be kidding.Enron was so happy with the deregulation that Bush gave them.You might recall that there were essentially no problems with black/brown-outs before Enron took over California.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060084</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060266</id>
	<title>its simple</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257091140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>we need justification to nationalize the power company's.<br>Sure they could just impose standards like they do with handling waste material and safety. But the government just simply knows better. hence they must seize them so they can run them better then the evil private sector that just wants to expose the public to avoidable hacker attacks and black outs.. which will cause pandemic size deaths in the heat of summer.....</p><p>please take note i have a hint of sarcasm in here</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>we need justification to nationalize the power company 's.Sure they could just impose standards like they do with handling waste material and safety .
But the government just simply knows better .
hence they must seize them so they can run them better then the evil private sector that just wants to expose the public to avoidable hacker attacks and black outs.. which will cause pandemic size deaths in the heat of summer.....please take note i have a hint of sarcasm in here</tokentext>
<sentencetext>we need justification to nationalize the power company's.Sure they could just impose standards like they do with handling waste material and safety.
But the government just simply knows better.
hence they must seize them so they can run them better then the evil private sector that just wants to expose the public to avoidable hacker attacks and black outs.. which will cause pandemic size deaths in the heat of summer.....please take note i have a hint of sarcasm in here</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060364</id>
	<title>easy to solve, done many times.</title>
	<author>h00manist</author>
	<datestamp>1257091560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's easy to secure everything. Put security checkpoints on every bridge, tunnel, road, port, airpot, intersection, everywhere. Have bio-id issued and tagged to everyone and everything who is circulating or communicating with any national device, entity or person.  Require this bio-id of all interchanges of all kinds.  It worked fairly well in the USSR, and they had only papers and radios.  If that's not in your script for the future, well, otherwise, the other best option is to invest in education.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's easy to secure everything .
Put security checkpoints on every bridge , tunnel , road , port , airpot , intersection , everywhere .
Have bio-id issued and tagged to everyone and everything who is circulating or communicating with any national device , entity or person .
Require this bio-id of all interchanges of all kinds .
It worked fairly well in the USSR , and they had only papers and radios .
If that 's not in your script for the future , well , otherwise , the other best option is to invest in education .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's easy to secure everything.
Put security checkpoints on every bridge, tunnel, road, port, airpot, intersection, everywhere.
Have bio-id issued and tagged to everyone and everything who is circulating or communicating with any national device, entity or person.
Require this bio-id of all interchanges of all kinds.
It worked fairly well in the USSR, and they had only papers and radios.
If that's not in your script for the future, well, otherwise, the other best option is to invest in education.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061072</id>
	<title>"Our" power grid?</title>
	<author>noidentity</author>
	<datestamp>1257094620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I didn't realize that the world had a single power grid, "our" power grid.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I did n't realize that the world had a single power grid , " our " power grid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I didn't realize that the world had a single power grid, "our" power grid.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061790</id>
	<title>Re:Old Axiom</title>
	<author>tisch</author>
	<datestamp>1257097320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I have always believed that if something is networked, it can be subject to unauthorized access.  I hope I am wrong.</p></div><p>The risks usually outweigh the benefits.
Having stations networked to an internal monitoring station would have been fine. Heavy infrastructure shouldn't have links, directly or indirectly, to public networks, ever.

Did they say how this was accomplished? Did they gain access through a web-server, or some other DMZ?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have always believed that if something is networked , it can be subject to unauthorized access .
I hope I am wrong.The risks usually outweigh the benefits .
Having stations networked to an internal monitoring station would have been fine .
Heavy infrastructure should n't have links , directly or indirectly , to public networks , ever .
Did they say how this was accomplished ?
Did they gain access through a web-server , or some other DMZ ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have always believed that if something is networked, it can be subject to unauthorized access.
I hope I am wrong.The risks usually outweigh the benefits.
Having stations networked to an internal monitoring station would have been fine.
Heavy infrastructure shouldn't have links, directly or indirectly, to public networks, ever.
Did they say how this was accomplished?
Did they gain access through a web-server, or some other DMZ?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30059988</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060314</id>
	<title>Plural: It's Grids, not Grid.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257091380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The lower 48 CONUS actually has 3 power grids, not just a singular grid. They are the:</p><ul><li> Eastern Interconnect </li><li> Western Interconnect </li><li> Texas Interconnect </li></ul><p>Yes, Texas *is* like a "whole 'nuther country", it even has its own separate power grid.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The lower 48 CONUS actually has 3 power grids , not just a singular grid .
They are the : Eastern Interconnect Western Interconnect Texas Interconnect Yes , Texas * is * like a " whole 'nuther country " , it even has its own separate power grid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The lower 48 CONUS actually has 3 power grids, not just a singular grid.
They are the: Eastern Interconnect  Western Interconnect  Texas Interconnect Yes, Texas *is* like a "whole 'nuther country", it even has its own separate power grid.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061426</id>
	<title>Re:How is that any different....</title>
	<author>wisdom\_brewing</author>
	<datestamp>1257096060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>aren't taxes also a "pay me or else" scheme?</htmltext>
<tokenext>are n't taxes also a " pay me or else " scheme ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>aren't taxes also a "pay me or else" scheme?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060094</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060634</id>
	<title>fear mongering. plain and simple</title>
	<author>C0vardeAn0nim0</author>
	<datestamp>1257092880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I live in brasil, never heard anything about cracker being responsible for the blackouts in espirito santo in 2007. to tell the truth, the first time i heard about it was on the web a few days ago, reading blog posts about the 60min report.</p><p>the minister of energy and the national system operator (the office that controls our power grid) already denied the "information" from the 60min show.</p><p>IMHO, it's just another piece of typical american fear-mongering, probably aimed at selling some incredibly expensive, over-complicated and completelly unecessary "technology" to the government.</p><p>more <a href="http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/geral,rede-cbs-diz-que-hackers-causaram-apagao-de-2007,464515,0.htm" title="estadao.com.br">here</a> [estadao.com.br] (in portuguese).</p><p>disclaimer: estad&#227;o is a reliable, reasonably unbiased brasilian news agency.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I live in brasil , never heard anything about cracker being responsible for the blackouts in espirito santo in 2007. to tell the truth , the first time i heard about it was on the web a few days ago , reading blog posts about the 60min report.the minister of energy and the national system operator ( the office that controls our power grid ) already denied the " information " from the 60min show.IMHO , it 's just another piece of typical american fear-mongering , probably aimed at selling some incredibly expensive , over-complicated and completelly unecessary " technology " to the government.more here [ estadao.com.br ] ( in portuguese ) .disclaimer : estad   o is a reliable , reasonably unbiased brasilian news agency .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live in brasil, never heard anything about cracker being responsible for the blackouts in espirito santo in 2007. to tell the truth, the first time i heard about it was on the web a few days ago, reading blog posts about the 60min report.the minister of energy and the national system operator (the office that controls our power grid) already denied the "information" from the 60min show.IMHO, it's just another piece of typical american fear-mongering, probably aimed at selling some incredibly expensive, over-complicated and completelly unecessary "technology" to the government.more here [estadao.com.br] (in portuguese).disclaimer: estadão is a reliable, reasonably unbiased brasilian news agency.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060054</id>
	<title>Who's We?</title>
	<author>ztransform</author>
	<datestamp>1257090240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Please let me know from what nationality a poster to Slashdot actually believes his is the only one represented on this website..</htmltext>
<tokenext>Please let me know from what nationality a poster to Slashdot actually believes his is the only one represented on this website. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Please let me know from what nationality a poster to Slashdot actually believes his is the only one represented on this website..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30065762</id>
	<title>Re:How many times need this question be answered?</title>
	<author>AK Marc</author>
	<datestamp>1257070680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>Many people, including renowned experts such as Capers Jones, figured that there would be no way the grid could survive Y2K without numerous incidents. The actual grid incident count on the night in question was zero.</i> <br> <br>I don't know what definitions they were using, but I watched the ball fall on TV (tape delayed to my time zone) and about 2 seconds after it hit the bottom, the power went out.  It was out for over 2 hours.  Coincidence?  Possibly.  But to insinuate that there were no incidences of power failure at midnight Y2K is false.  I know because I was in one of them.  Oh, Dallas, the Preston Hollow neighborhood, if you have more insight to the industry and can track down what actually happened.  I never did find out, and "flawless" was tossed around when I know better...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Many people , including renowned experts such as Capers Jones , figured that there would be no way the grid could survive Y2K without numerous incidents .
The actual grid incident count on the night in question was zero .
I do n't know what definitions they were using , but I watched the ball fall on TV ( tape delayed to my time zone ) and about 2 seconds after it hit the bottom , the power went out .
It was out for over 2 hours .
Coincidence ? Possibly .
But to insinuate that there were no incidences of power failure at midnight Y2K is false .
I know because I was in one of them .
Oh , Dallas , the Preston Hollow neighborhood , if you have more insight to the industry and can track down what actually happened .
I never did find out , and " flawless " was tossed around when I know better.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many people, including renowned experts such as Capers Jones, figured that there would be no way the grid could survive Y2K without numerous incidents.
The actual grid incident count on the night in question was zero.
I don't know what definitions they were using, but I watched the ball fall on TV (tape delayed to my time zone) and about 2 seconds after it hit the bottom, the power went out.
It was out for over 2 hours.
Coincidence?  Possibly.
But to insinuate that there were no incidences of power failure at midnight Y2K is false.
I know because I was in one of them.
Oh, Dallas, the Preston Hollow neighborhood, if you have more insight to the industry and can track down what actually happened.
I never did find out, and "flawless" was tossed around when I know better...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061530</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060912</id>
	<title>Re:Old Axiom</title>
	<author>vlm</author>
	<datestamp>1257093960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>no external access points</p></div><p>No such thing as a network with no external access points.  Think about it.  If you were able to "get in there" to install, configure and maintain it, someone else can do the same.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>no external access pointsNo such thing as a network with no external access points .
Think about it .
If you were able to " get in there " to install , configure and maintain it , someone else can do the same .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>no external access pointsNo such thing as a network with no external access points.
Think about it.
If you were able to "get in there" to install, configure and maintain it, someone else can do the same.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060248</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30065866</id>
	<title>Re:This raises hope...</title>
	<author>pianoben</author>
	<datestamp>1257071280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I write software for a company that deals in building controls middleware that recently branched out in to end-user power management software for buildings.  Not so long ago, we engineers had a rather fierce battle with the CTO over precisely this point.

He insisted that a critical feature of the software had to be the ability to control arbitrary building controls via an unsecured, public-facing web service.  The fact was lost on him that, should all of a medium-sized building's controls be cycled simultaneously, the local grid could very well collapse.  Eventually he was overridden, but barely.

Rest assured that the engineers are not, in fact, complete morons.  Just the executives.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I write software for a company that deals in building controls middleware that recently branched out in to end-user power management software for buildings .
Not so long ago , we engineers had a rather fierce battle with the CTO over precisely this point .
He insisted that a critical feature of the software had to be the ability to control arbitrary building controls via an unsecured , public-facing web service .
The fact was lost on him that , should all of a medium-sized building 's controls be cycled simultaneously , the local grid could very well collapse .
Eventually he was overridden , but barely .
Rest assured that the engineers are not , in fact , complete morons .
Just the executives .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I write software for a company that deals in building controls middleware that recently branched out in to end-user power management software for buildings.
Not so long ago, we engineers had a rather fierce battle with the CTO over precisely this point.
He insisted that a critical feature of the software had to be the ability to control arbitrary building controls via an unsecured, public-facing web service.
The fact was lost on him that, should all of a medium-sized building's controls be cycled simultaneously, the local grid could very well collapse.
Eventually he was overridden, but barely.
Rest assured that the engineers are not, in fact, complete morons.
Just the executives.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061152</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30071316</id>
	<title>New energy meters</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258034100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've worked at a company installing the new energy meters in a country in Europe (doesn't matter which). These new meters are being installed all over Europe and most, if not all, versions are fully remote controllable. The COTS system we installed is commonly used for these kinds of systems.
The system is useless and there is absolutely no security thinking. Even being a rather unskilled black-hat (like most of us, I have had my hacking days in my youth, but most of my knowledge in the area seems rather outdated nowadays) I would still be able to shut down the power for at least 300,000 customers, from my laptop sitting at a random caf&#233;. If I also e.g. changed the passwords on the meters randomly, etc, I estimate it would take multiple months for them to restore all power.

What strikes me is that the government has \_no\_ formal demands for security or safety of the systems. Systems with the ability to switch on and off power are safety-critical, and should be treated as such!

(And no, I'm not going to describe the system in any detail or say anything about it's technical nature.)</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've worked at a company installing the new energy meters in a country in Europe ( does n't matter which ) .
These new meters are being installed all over Europe and most , if not all , versions are fully remote controllable .
The COTS system we installed is commonly used for these kinds of systems .
The system is useless and there is absolutely no security thinking .
Even being a rather unskilled black-hat ( like most of us , I have had my hacking days in my youth , but most of my knowledge in the area seems rather outdated nowadays ) I would still be able to shut down the power for at least 300,000 customers , from my laptop sitting at a random caf   .
If I also e.g .
changed the passwords on the meters randomly , etc , I estimate it would take multiple months for them to restore all power .
What strikes me is that the government has \ _no \ _ formal demands for security or safety of the systems .
Systems with the ability to switch on and off power are safety-critical , and should be treated as such !
( And no , I 'm not going to describe the system in any detail or say anything about it 's technical nature .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've worked at a company installing the new energy meters in a country in Europe (doesn't matter which).
These new meters are being installed all over Europe and most, if not all, versions are fully remote controllable.
The COTS system we installed is commonly used for these kinds of systems.
The system is useless and there is absolutely no security thinking.
Even being a rather unskilled black-hat (like most of us, I have had my hacking days in my youth, but most of my knowledge in the area seems rather outdated nowadays) I would still be able to shut down the power for at least 300,000 customers, from my laptop sitting at a random café.
If I also e.g.
changed the passwords on the meters randomly, etc, I estimate it would take multiple months for them to restore all power.
What strikes me is that the government has \_no\_ formal demands for security or safety of the systems.
Systems with the ability to switch on and off power are safety-critical, and should be treated as such!
(And no, I'm not going to describe the system in any detail or say anything about it's technical nature.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060582</id>
	<title>Re:Pay me or else?</title>
	<author>interploy</author>
	<datestamp>1257092640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Funny, as I recall I have to pay my electric bill every month "or else" even now... Damn, the terrorists have already won!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Funny , as I recall I have to pay my electric bill every month " or else " even now... Damn , the terrorists have already won !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Funny, as I recall I have to pay my electric bill every month "or else" even now... Damn, the terrorists have already won!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30060016</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_11_1426256.30061336</id>
	<title>Scary, but realistic, book to read</title>
	<author>Matt\_Bennett</author>
	<datestamp>1257095760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Read the book by William R. Forstchen: <i>One Second After</i> about America after an EMP attack.  Our grid (and all our semiconductors) are exceedingly vulnerable.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Read the book by William R. Forstchen : One Second After about America after an EMP attack .
Our grid ( and all our semiconductors ) are exceedingly vulnerable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Read the book by William R. Forstchen: One Second After about America after an EMP attack.
Our grid (and all our semiconductors) are exceedingly vulnerable.</sentencetext>
</comment>
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