<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_11_09_0012226</id>
	<title>Massive Power Outages In Brazil Caused By Hackers</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1257769020000</datestamp>
	<htmltext><a href="http://hughpickens.com/" rel="nofollow">Hugh Pickens</a> writes <i>"CBS reports on <em>60 minutes</em> that a massive two-day power outage in Brazil's Espirito Santo State affecting more than three million people in 2007, and another, smaller event in three cities north of Rio de Janeiro in January 2005, were perpetrated by  <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/06/60minutes/main5555565.shtml">hackers manipulating control systems</a>. Former Chief of US National Intelligence Retired Adm. Mike McConnell says that the 'United States is not prepared for such an attack' and believes it could happen in America. 'If I were an attacker and wanted to do strategic damage to the United States, I would either take the cold of winter or the heat of summer,' says McConnell, 'I would probably sack electric power on the US East Coast, maybe the West Coast and attempt to cause a cascading effect.' Congressman Jim Langevin says that US power companies <a href="http://www.informationweek.com/news/security/government/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=208200096">need to be forced to deal with the issue</a> after they told Congress they would take steps to defend their operations but did not follow up. 'They admit that they misled Congress. The private sector has different priorities than we do in providing security. Their bottom line is about profits,' says Langevin. 'We need to change their motivation so that when see vulnerability like this, we can require them to fix it.' McConnell adds that  a similar attack to the one in Brazil is <a href="http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ixq3Gm6MdDeOd-0bYb53iVENNq5Q">poised to take place on US soil</a> and that it may take some horrific event to get the country focused on shoring up cyber security. 'If the power grid was taken off line in the middle of winter and it caused people to suffer and die, that would galvanize the nation. I hope we don't get there.'"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hugh Pickens writes " CBS reports on 60 minutes that a massive two-day power outage in Brazil 's Espirito Santo State affecting more than three million people in 2007 , and another , smaller event in three cities north of Rio de Janeiro in January 2005 , were perpetrated by hackers manipulating control systems .
Former Chief of US National Intelligence Retired Adm. Mike McConnell says that the 'United States is not prepared for such an attack ' and believes it could happen in America .
'If I were an attacker and wanted to do strategic damage to the United States , I would either take the cold of winter or the heat of summer, ' says McConnell , 'I would probably sack electric power on the US East Coast , maybe the West Coast and attempt to cause a cascading effect .
' Congressman Jim Langevin says that US power companies need to be forced to deal with the issue after they told Congress they would take steps to defend their operations but did not follow up .
'They admit that they misled Congress .
The private sector has different priorities than we do in providing security .
Their bottom line is about profits, ' says Langevin .
'We need to change their motivation so that when see vulnerability like this , we can require them to fix it .
' McConnell adds that a similar attack to the one in Brazil is poised to take place on US soil and that it may take some horrific event to get the country focused on shoring up cyber security .
'If the power grid was taken off line in the middle of winter and it caused people to suffer and die , that would galvanize the nation .
I hope we do n't get there .
' "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hugh Pickens writes "CBS reports on 60 minutes that a massive two-day power outage in Brazil's Espirito Santo State affecting more than three million people in 2007, and another, smaller event in three cities north of Rio de Janeiro in January 2005, were perpetrated by  hackers manipulating control systems.
Former Chief of US National Intelligence Retired Adm. Mike McConnell says that the 'United States is not prepared for such an attack' and believes it could happen in America.
'If I were an attacker and wanted to do strategic damage to the United States, I would either take the cold of winter or the heat of summer,' says McConnell, 'I would probably sack electric power on the US East Coast, maybe the West Coast and attempt to cause a cascading effect.
' Congressman Jim Langevin says that US power companies need to be forced to deal with the issue after they told Congress they would take steps to defend their operations but did not follow up.
'They admit that they misled Congress.
The private sector has different priorities than we do in providing security.
Their bottom line is about profits,' says Langevin.
'We need to change their motivation so that when see vulnerability like this, we can require them to fix it.
' McConnell adds that  a similar attack to the one in Brazil is poised to take place on US soil and that it may take some horrific event to get the country focused on shoring up cyber security.
'If the power grid was taken off line in the middle of winter and it caused people to suffer and die, that would galvanize the nation.
I hope we don't get there.
'"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027864</id>
	<title>Re:THE TRUTH!! DO NOT MOD DOWN!! +5 INFORMATIVE</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257693540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nice, one of the funnier trolls I've seen in a while...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nice , one of the funnier trolls I 've seen in a while.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nice, one of the funnier trolls I've seen in a while...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026900</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30031296</id>
	<title>Re:So...</title>
	<author>seaton carew</author>
	<datestamp>1257774360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Physical or absolute separation of the various networks is a good idea in theory.
<br>
In practice, separation is exceptionally difficult to maintain:
<ol>
<li>There's always non-critical data to collect. Long term trends, maybe some environmental data, some trial project for some new tech. This stuff is (quite rightly) kept away from the mission critical networks and usually goes over the internet.</li>
<li>The mission-critical guys then find that this non critical data is useful/relevant to what they do. Maybe it's just a weather forecast, something like that. So they end up having access to the non-critical information. It's usually too hard/too expensive to make intangible data sources available through the mission-critical systems (changes are expensive and you don't know what the benfit is until you try it...). So, they'll get access in informal ways. It starts with printouts, then a "separate" screen in the control room, then maybe an info display on their main screen and before you know it, you've started to breach the separation. Still, nothing too disastrous at this point.</li>
<li>The next stage is that this extra information proves so useful that the idea of automation comes in. "Hey, look: if we merge this data source with this data source, we can have the system make a decision for us and it'll ease the workload of the mission critical people". At this point, you've now got mission critical data and other data all routed into the same decision box, running *unsupervised*. No-one really knows what's going on (in real time) and this is where the hackers can start to play.</li>
</ol><p>
I'm not sure what the solution is. The message is "Don't rely on separation to protect you." It *will* be breached. The day-to-day business processes in a utility will take care of that...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Physical or absolute separation of the various networks is a good idea in theory .
In practice , separation is exceptionally difficult to maintain : There 's always non-critical data to collect .
Long term trends , maybe some environmental data , some trial project for some new tech .
This stuff is ( quite rightly ) kept away from the mission critical networks and usually goes over the internet .
The mission-critical guys then find that this non critical data is useful/relevant to what they do .
Maybe it 's just a weather forecast , something like that .
So they end up having access to the non-critical information .
It 's usually too hard/too expensive to make intangible data sources available through the mission-critical systems ( changes are expensive and you do n't know what the benfit is until you try it... ) .
So , they 'll get access in informal ways .
It starts with printouts , then a " separate " screen in the control room , then maybe an info display on their main screen and before you know it , you 've started to breach the separation .
Still , nothing too disastrous at this point .
The next stage is that this extra information proves so useful that the idea of automation comes in .
" Hey , look : if we merge this data source with this data source , we can have the system make a decision for us and it 'll ease the workload of the mission critical people " .
At this point , you 've now got mission critical data and other data all routed into the same decision box , running * unsupervised * .
No-one really knows what 's going on ( in real time ) and this is where the hackers can start to play .
I 'm not sure what the solution is .
The message is " Do n't rely on separation to protect you .
" It * will * be breached .
The day-to-day business processes in a utility will take care of that.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Physical or absolute separation of the various networks is a good idea in theory.
In practice, separation is exceptionally difficult to maintain:

There's always non-critical data to collect.
Long term trends, maybe some environmental data, some trial project for some new tech.
This stuff is (quite rightly) kept away from the mission critical networks and usually goes over the internet.
The mission-critical guys then find that this non critical data is useful/relevant to what they do.
Maybe it's just a weather forecast, something like that.
So they end up having access to the non-critical information.
It's usually too hard/too expensive to make intangible data sources available through the mission-critical systems (changes are expensive and you don't know what the benfit is until you try it...).
So, they'll get access in informal ways.
It starts with printouts, then a "separate" screen in the control room, then maybe an info display on their main screen and before you know it, you've started to breach the separation.
Still, nothing too disastrous at this point.
The next stage is that this extra information proves so useful that the idea of automation comes in.
"Hey, look: if we merge this data source with this data source, we can have the system make a decision for us and it'll ease the workload of the mission critical people".
At this point, you've now got mission critical data and other data all routed into the same decision box, running *unsupervised*.
No-one really knows what's going on (in real time) and this is where the hackers can start to play.
I'm not sure what the solution is.
The message is "Don't rely on separation to protect you.
" It *will* be breached.
The day-to-day business processes in a utility will take care of that...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026944</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028474</id>
	<title>They are making it worse</title>
	<author>mikep554</author>
	<datestamp>1257698940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I follow a number of security-focused mailing lists, and about once every two or three months someone posts something like this: "Help! The plant mangers at $CRITICAL\_INFRASTRUCTURE\_SITE where I work want to have all the formerly air-gapped SCADA systems accessible via a web browser from any internet-connected PC so they can check the plant status from home, on vacation, while at conferences etc. I haven't been able to talk them out of it, can anyone help with a better argument?"</p><p>What reasoning do your propose to people who's response to the argument of "if we are hacked, the loss of life and bankruptcy of our company will come back to you" is met with "you IT guys are too paraniod"?</p><p>Until people start going to jail, profit and convenience will trump everything else.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I follow a number of security-focused mailing lists , and about once every two or three months someone posts something like this : " Help !
The plant mangers at $ CRITICAL \ _INFRASTRUCTURE \ _SITE where I work want to have all the formerly air-gapped SCADA systems accessible via a web browser from any internet-connected PC so they can check the plant status from home , on vacation , while at conferences etc .
I have n't been able to talk them out of it , can anyone help with a better argument ?
" What reasoning do your propose to people who 's response to the argument of " if we are hacked , the loss of life and bankruptcy of our company will come back to you " is met with " you IT guys are too paraniod " ? Until people start going to jail , profit and convenience will trump everything else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I follow a number of security-focused mailing lists, and about once every two or three months someone posts something like this: "Help!
The plant mangers at $CRITICAL\_INFRASTRUCTURE\_SITE where I work want to have all the formerly air-gapped SCADA systems accessible via a web browser from any internet-connected PC so they can check the plant status from home, on vacation, while at conferences etc.
I haven't been able to talk them out of it, can anyone help with a better argument?
"What reasoning do your propose to people who's response to the argument of "if we are hacked, the loss of life and bankruptcy of our company will come back to you" is met with "you IT guys are too paraniod"?Until people start going to jail, profit and convenience will trump everything else.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027770</id>
	<title>Re:Hit'em in their wallets</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257692760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Auditing and financial penalties are already in place for Cyber Protection of Bulk Electrical control systems.  It is called the CIP standards (http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=2|20) and allows the government to impose a 1 million dollar per day fine if audits find a Utility out of compliance.  Of course, there is still a lot of questions regarding what constitutes "out of compliance"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Auditing and financial penalties are already in place for Cyber Protection of Bulk Electrical control systems .
It is called the CIP standards ( http : //www.nerc.com/page.php ? cid = 2 | 20 ) and allows the government to impose a 1 million dollar per day fine if audits find a Utility out of compliance .
Of course , there is still a lot of questions regarding what constitutes " out of compliance "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Auditing and financial penalties are already in place for Cyber Protection of Bulk Electrical control systems.
It is called the CIP standards (http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=2|20) and allows the government to impose a 1 million dollar per day fine if audits find a Utility out of compliance.
Of course, there is still a lot of questions regarding what constitutes "out of compliance"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029942</id>
	<title>Bruce Willis will sort it out</title>
	<author>Bazman</author>
	<datestamp>1257757680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or has nobody here seen Die Hard 4?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or has nobody here seen Die Hard 4 ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or has nobody here seen Die Hard 4?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029020</id>
	<title>fff</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257703560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><div><div><div><div><div><p> <a href="http://www.brickfish.com?=PP\_BFLogo\_494" title="brickfish.com" rel="nofollow"> </a> [brickfish.com]</p> </htmltext>
<tokenext>[ brickfish.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>   [brickfish.com] </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30138154</id>
	<title>Re:Your official guide to the Jigaboo presidency</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1258467300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...and yet America wonders why the world hates them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...and yet America wonders why the world hates them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...and yet America wonders why the world hates them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026864</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30034938</id>
	<title>Re:Hit'em in their wallets</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257790800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If all they give you is hot air and no implementation, fine them millions of dollars, and on a regular basis if needbe til they implement it.</p></div><p>The sad thing is, the companies would keep not spending money on security but would wine and dine the state regulators until they were allowed to directly pass on the fines to their customers through tariffs and "temporary price increase".</p><p>Hell, I am still paying a "fuel surcharge" that was allowed for natural gas when the price went insane, but that was 1 1/2 years ago!  Why is the surcharge still nearly the same, and better yet, why is it still on my bill? (NG prices are back to what they were before the spike, surcharge nearly as high as ever)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If all they give you is hot air and no implementation , fine them millions of dollars , and on a regular basis if needbe til they implement it.The sad thing is , the companies would keep not spending money on security but would wine and dine the state regulators until they were allowed to directly pass on the fines to their customers through tariffs and " temporary price increase " .Hell , I am still paying a " fuel surcharge " that was allowed for natural gas when the price went insane , but that was 1 1/2 years ago !
Why is the surcharge still nearly the same , and better yet , why is it still on my bill ?
( NG prices are back to what they were before the spike , surcharge nearly as high as ever )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If all they give you is hot air and no implementation, fine them millions of dollars, and on a regular basis if needbe til they implement it.The sad thing is, the companies would keep not spending money on security but would wine and dine the state regulators until they were allowed to directly pass on the fines to their customers through tariffs and "temporary price increase".Hell, I am still paying a "fuel surcharge" that was allowed for natural gas when the price went insane, but that was 1 1/2 years ago!
Why is the surcharge still nearly the same, and better yet, why is it still on my bill?
(NG prices are back to what they were before the spike, surcharge nearly as high as ever)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30047834</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>trevinlovett</author>
	<datestamp>1257877200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> <i>The threat is narural events. The danger from terrorists is minimal.</i></p></div><p>that is super true... i live in Missouri and nobody worries about anything except tornadoes.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The threat is narural events .
The danger from terrorists is minimal.that is super true... i live in Missouri and nobody worries about anything except tornadoes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> The threat is narural events.
The danger from terrorists is minimal.that is super true... i live in Missouri and nobody worries about anything except tornadoes.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30032052</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30033276</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257784140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Are we better off spending money assaulting terrorists where they live, or would we be better if we built more skyscrapers?  I think no one knows.</p></div><p>The question is pretty much bullshit since we arent really "assaulting terrorists where they live" in the first place. The war in Iraq has as much to do with stopping terrorism as Slashdot has to do with losing ones virginity.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Are we better off spending money assaulting terrorists where they live , or would we be better if we built more skyscrapers ?
I think no one knows.The question is pretty much bullshit since we arent really " assaulting terrorists where they live " in the first place .
The war in Iraq has as much to do with stopping terrorism as Slashdot has to do with losing ones virginity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are we better off spending money assaulting terrorists where they live, or would we be better if we built more skyscrapers?
I think no one knows.The question is pretty much bullshit since we arent really "assaulting terrorists where they live" in the first place.
The war in Iraq has as much to do with stopping terrorism as Slashdot has to do with losing ones virginity.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028990</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030200</id>
	<title>Re:If the power grid is so vulnerable, why hasn't.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257760500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Because Joe Sixpack would realize it and demand that said systems would be made secure.</p><p>The blackhats don't want to do major havoc yet, for fear that businesses get a clue and airgap the juicy stuff.  Instead, the clued crackers are just waiting for a more apt time to strike.</p><p>One possible thing that can happen is the outages would be combined with a military action by another country.  An example would be a massive power outage in the US as you describe, then China immediately "annexing" Taiwan.  By the time the US fixes the power mess, Taiwan would be completely occupied, and I'm almost certain that the US won't risk a nuclear exchange for it, no matter what treaties are in place.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because Joe Sixpack would realize it and demand that said systems would be made secure.The blackhats do n't want to do major havoc yet , for fear that businesses get a clue and airgap the juicy stuff .
Instead , the clued crackers are just waiting for a more apt time to strike.One possible thing that can happen is the outages would be combined with a military action by another country .
An example would be a massive power outage in the US as you describe , then China immediately " annexing " Taiwan .
By the time the US fixes the power mess , Taiwan would be completely occupied , and I 'm almost certain that the US wo n't risk a nuclear exchange for it , no matter what treaties are in place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because Joe Sixpack would realize it and demand that said systems would be made secure.The blackhats don't want to do major havoc yet, for fear that businesses get a clue and airgap the juicy stuff.
Instead, the clued crackers are just waiting for a more apt time to strike.One possible thing that can happen is the outages would be combined with a military action by another country.
An example would be a massive power outage in the US as you describe, then China immediately "annexing" Taiwan.
By the time the US fixes the power mess, Taiwan would be completely occupied, and I'm almost certain that the US won't risk a nuclear exchange for it, no matter what treaties are in place.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027900</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029192</id>
	<title>Re:Hit'em in their wallets</title>
	<author>cetialphav</author>
	<datestamp>1257705420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Those with the ability to secure the system need to be the ones paying for breeches.</p></div><p>The bad thing now is that if you were going to create a risk model for this, the utility companies have very few benefits to gain.  If they secure themselves, it will cost them money and lower profits.  Since their competitors are not doing this, investors will punish them for being less profitable than everyone else.  On top of that securing their infrastructure only reduces their risk; it doesn't eliminate it.</p><p>So what happens if they are successfully attacked?  If there is physical destruction, they will appeal to the government for relief and they will get it because they are "too big to fail".  Most of the costs for a security breach can be transferred to the government so why spend money on prevention?  The economics of securing the infrastructure is so bad that the rational decision is not to spend any money on prevention and that needs to be changed.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Those with the ability to secure the system need to be the ones paying for breeches.The bad thing now is that if you were going to create a risk model for this , the utility companies have very few benefits to gain .
If they secure themselves , it will cost them money and lower profits .
Since their competitors are not doing this , investors will punish them for being less profitable than everyone else .
On top of that securing their infrastructure only reduces their risk ; it does n't eliminate it.So what happens if they are successfully attacked ?
If there is physical destruction , they will appeal to the government for relief and they will get it because they are " too big to fail " .
Most of the costs for a security breach can be transferred to the government so why spend money on prevention ?
The economics of securing the infrastructure is so bad that the rational decision is not to spend any money on prevention and that needs to be changed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Those with the ability to secure the system need to be the ones paying for breeches.The bad thing now is that if you were going to create a risk model for this, the utility companies have very few benefits to gain.
If they secure themselves, it will cost them money and lower profits.
Since their competitors are not doing this, investors will punish them for being less profitable than everyone else.
On top of that securing their infrastructure only reduces their risk; it doesn't eliminate it.So what happens if they are successfully attacked?
If there is physical destruction, they will appeal to the government for relief and they will get it because they are "too big to fail".
Most of the costs for a security breach can be transferred to the government so why spend money on prevention?
The economics of securing the infrastructure is so bad that the rational decision is not to spend any money on prevention and that needs to be changed.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028252</id>
	<title>Obvious solution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257696960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>"We need to change their motivation so that when see vulnerability like this, we can require them to fix it.'"<br><br>Why the hell is this so hard to figure out?  Hold cooperation responsible for the negative effects caused by their negligence.  Power going out because a skilled hacker found an exploit that the best security experts couldn't find is one thing.  But power going out because the IT dept. at the power company decided that they didn't need to take basic security measures is another, that's negligance.<br><br>If people die because the power went out and the power went out due to negligence (i.e. some 15 year old managed to ssh into the power plant and fuck everything up because the root password was "password") then charge the company with criminally negligent homicide.<br><br>We don't need some special, new incentive to get companies to protect the public interest.  We just need to remove all of the immunity we've given the companies.  The only question we have to answer here is why the fuck did we give companies immunity from the consequences of their actions?</htmltext>
<tokenext>" We need to change their motivation so that when see vulnerability like this , we can require them to fix it .
' " Why the hell is this so hard to figure out ?
Hold cooperation responsible for the negative effects caused by their negligence .
Power going out because a skilled hacker found an exploit that the best security experts could n't find is one thing .
But power going out because the IT dept .
at the power company decided that they did n't need to take basic security measures is another , that 's negligance.If people die because the power went out and the power went out due to negligence ( i.e .
some 15 year old managed to ssh into the power plant and fuck everything up because the root password was " password " ) then charge the company with criminally negligent homicide.We do n't need some special , new incentive to get companies to protect the public interest .
We just need to remove all of the immunity we 've given the companies .
The only question we have to answer here is why the fuck did we give companies immunity from the consequences of their actions ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"We need to change their motivation so that when see vulnerability like this, we can require them to fix it.
'"Why the hell is this so hard to figure out?
Hold cooperation responsible for the negative effects caused by their negligence.
Power going out because a skilled hacker found an exploit that the best security experts couldn't find is one thing.
But power going out because the IT dept.
at the power company decided that they didn't need to take basic security measures is another, that's negligance.If people die because the power went out and the power went out due to negligence (i.e.
some 15 year old managed to ssh into the power plant and fuck everything up because the root password was "password") then charge the company with criminally negligent homicide.We don't need some special, new incentive to get companies to protect the public interest.
We just need to remove all of the immunity we've given the companies.
The only question we have to answer here is why the fuck did we give companies immunity from the consequences of their actions?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027880</id>
	<title>Re:Hit'em in their wallets</title>
	<author>Afforess</author>
	<datestamp>1257693660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The problem here is government, not the lack of it. Government created Artificial monopolies with power companies, and are reaping the rewards. If there was a true free market in regards to power, only the best managed, and most secure companies would be hired, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem here is government , not the lack of it .
Government created Artificial monopolies with power companies , and are reaping the rewards .
If there was a true free market in regards to power , only the best managed , and most secure companies would be hired , and we would n't be having this discussion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem here is government, not the lack of it.
Government created Artificial monopolies with power companies, and are reaping the rewards.
If there was a true free market in regards to power, only the best managed, and most secure companies would be hired, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30034402</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257788640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How about we just make the terrorists not hate us the most (so they attack someone else) by quit invading counties on a whim (or to finish a daddy's war).</p><p>How about we become isolationist like we were in the 30's after the last big freeze on the economy.  Hell, back then we didn't even have huge megacorps bilking money from people for their oversized underpowered power grids (they just bilked money on a smaller scale and regionally).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about we just make the terrorists not hate us the most ( so they attack someone else ) by quit invading counties on a whim ( or to finish a daddy 's war ) .How about we become isolationist like we were in the 30 's after the last big freeze on the economy .
Hell , back then we did n't even have huge megacorps bilking money from people for their oversized underpowered power grids ( they just bilked money on a smaller scale and regionally ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about we just make the terrorists not hate us the most (so they attack someone else) by quit invading counties on a whim (or to finish a daddy's war).How about we become isolationist like we were in the 30's after the last big freeze on the economy.
Hell, back then we didn't even have huge megacorps bilking money from people for their oversized underpowered power grids (they just bilked money on a smaller scale and regionally).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028990</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030874</id>
	<title>Re:So...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257769080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thankfully, today they can start using smart phone based HR systems and automate some of the tasks with the help of the RFID tags and nearfield communications. The power companies probably just end up connecting the HR systems with the physical security systems, which might be already connected to the control systems.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thankfully , today they can start using smart phone based HR systems and automate some of the tasks with the help of the RFID tags and nearfield communications .
The power companies probably just end up connecting the HR systems with the physical security systems , which might be already connected to the control systems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thankfully, today they can start using smart phone based HR systems and automate some of the tasks with the help of the RFID tags and nearfield communications.
The power companies probably just end up connecting the HR systems with the physical security systems, which might be already connected to the control systems.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027542</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026944</id>
	<title>So...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257686880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Who thought it would be a swell idea to to hook the grid's computers to the INTERNET?<br>Did someone surf some pr0n sites on the Win98 powered control computer down at the power plant?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Who thought it would be a swell idea to to hook the grid 's computers to the INTERNET ? Did someone surf some pr0n sites on the Win98 powered control computer down at the power plant ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Who thought it would be a swell idea to to hook the grid's computers to the INTERNET?Did someone surf some pr0n sites on the Win98 powered control computer down at the power plant?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029904</id>
	<title>Re:So how exactly does this work?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257800340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Is there a webpage with a big "turn off generators" button?</p></div><p>Yes. Rendered in 3D using Silverlight. Only supported on IE. And hosted on IIS on a lone box sitting in the corner of a long-forgotten closet running a release candidate of XP.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is there a webpage with a big " turn off generators " button ? Yes .
Rendered in 3D using Silverlight .
Only supported on IE .
And hosted on IIS on a lone box sitting in the corner of a long-forgotten closet running a release candidate of XP .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is there a webpage with a big "turn off generators" button?Yes.
Rendered in 3D using Silverlight.
Only supported on IE.
And hosted on IIS on a lone box sitting in the corner of a long-forgotten closet running a release candidate of XP.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026966</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027900</id>
	<title>If the power grid is so vulnerable, why hasn't...</title>
	<author>swb</author>
	<datestamp>1257693900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...it been taken out in the U.S.?</p><p>If there's a dozen guys pissed off and zealous/brave/willing/stupid enough to hijack planes and fly them into buildings, surely there's 100s more pissed off guys with m@d sk1llz who could do this, and wouldn't be held back because it's not a suicide mission, and doesn't directly burn thousands to death in an ensuing fire and crash.</p><p>And I'd wager that hacking the power system is probably a decidedly less resource-intensive activity than even small-scale physical attacks (bomb/gun/kidnapping/etc), the participants can engage in almost total anonymity, and there's no messy explosives/weapons to buy or store or get caught with.  All this means its something that even a lone crank could pull off, opening the doors to a whole panoply of groups with gripes, including or especially all manner of domestic crackpots.  You don't need Al Quaalude or zillions of dollars or a complex intelligence network.</p><p>Forcing the grid offline and in a way that kept it down/brain damaged for any length of time over 48-72 hours, especially if it was widespread, would have such a cascading effect and probably spawn anarchy.  At a minimum billions lost, thousands killed, possibly riots or widespread civil disorder.  Katrina times 9/11.  So the effect would be substantial and easily deniable, making it the kind of thing China or Russia or any other competitive major power might want to do just to fuck with the Americans and keep them off balance.</p><p>Yet it hasn't happened here or Western Europe or most modern Asian countries.  Why?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...it been taken out in the U.S. ? If there 's a dozen guys pissed off and zealous/brave/willing/stupid enough to hijack planes and fly them into buildings , surely there 's 100s more pissed off guys with m @ d sk1llz who could do this , and would n't be held back because it 's not a suicide mission , and does n't directly burn thousands to death in an ensuing fire and crash.And I 'd wager that hacking the power system is probably a decidedly less resource-intensive activity than even small-scale physical attacks ( bomb/gun/kidnapping/etc ) , the participants can engage in almost total anonymity , and there 's no messy explosives/weapons to buy or store or get caught with .
All this means its something that even a lone crank could pull off , opening the doors to a whole panoply of groups with gripes , including or especially all manner of domestic crackpots .
You do n't need Al Quaalude or zillions of dollars or a complex intelligence network.Forcing the grid offline and in a way that kept it down/brain damaged for any length of time over 48-72 hours , especially if it was widespread , would have such a cascading effect and probably spawn anarchy .
At a minimum billions lost , thousands killed , possibly riots or widespread civil disorder .
Katrina times 9/11 .
So the effect would be substantial and easily deniable , making it the kind of thing China or Russia or any other competitive major power might want to do just to fuck with the Americans and keep them off balance.Yet it has n't happened here or Western Europe or most modern Asian countries .
Why ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...it been taken out in the U.S.?If there's a dozen guys pissed off and zealous/brave/willing/stupid enough to hijack planes and fly them into buildings, surely there's 100s more pissed off guys with m@d sk1llz who could do this, and wouldn't be held back because it's not a suicide mission, and doesn't directly burn thousands to death in an ensuing fire and crash.And I'd wager that hacking the power system is probably a decidedly less resource-intensive activity than even small-scale physical attacks (bomb/gun/kidnapping/etc), the participants can engage in almost total anonymity, and there's no messy explosives/weapons to buy or store or get caught with.
All this means its something that even a lone crank could pull off, opening the doors to a whole panoply of groups with gripes, including or especially all manner of domestic crackpots.
You don't need Al Quaalude or zillions of dollars or a complex intelligence network.Forcing the grid offline and in a way that kept it down/brain damaged for any length of time over 48-72 hours, especially if it was widespread, would have such a cascading effect and probably spawn anarchy.
At a minimum billions lost, thousands killed, possibly riots or widespread civil disorder.
Katrina times 9/11.
So the effect would be substantial and easily deniable, making it the kind of thing China or Russia or any other competitive major power might want to do just to fuck with the Americans and keep them off balance.Yet it hasn't happened here or Western Europe or most modern Asian countries.
Why?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030828</id>
	<title>Can someone tell me why ?</title>
	<author>Latinhypercube</author>
	<datestamp>1257768480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Can someone tell me why would anyone want to hack a power station ? Fun ? War ?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Can someone tell me why would anyone want to hack a power station ?
Fun ?
War ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can someone tell me why would anyone want to hack a power station ?
Fun ?
War ?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028776</id>
	<title>I disagree with the military... I am brazilian...</title>
	<author>jorlando</author>
	<datestamp>1257701520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The blackout in 2005 was a human failure. One transmission line went down, the team recovering that line made a mistake and instead of activating the repaired line disabled the backup line. Result: 3 states withou electric power.</p><p>The blackout in 2007 was due a circuit breaker shutting down one line, the same happening after in the backup line, that could manage the excess load (this happened during peak hours, 5 p.m. during a working day).</p><p>Ok, these are official explanations and the blackouts may have been caused by evil hackers but, in this case, the brazilian government made an excelent job holding that information for years, leaking now thanks to an american former military that may have some vested interest spreading fear.</p><p>2 cents..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The blackout in 2005 was a human failure .
One transmission line went down , the team recovering that line made a mistake and instead of activating the repaired line disabled the backup line .
Result : 3 states withou electric power.The blackout in 2007 was due a circuit breaker shutting down one line , the same happening after in the backup line , that could manage the excess load ( this happened during peak hours , 5 p.m. during a working day ) .Ok , these are official explanations and the blackouts may have been caused by evil hackers but , in this case , the brazilian government made an excelent job holding that information for years , leaking now thanks to an american former military that may have some vested interest spreading fear.2 cents. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The blackout in 2005 was a human failure.
One transmission line went down, the team recovering that line made a mistake and instead of activating the repaired line disabled the backup line.
Result: 3 states withou electric power.The blackout in 2007 was due a circuit breaker shutting down one line, the same happening after in the backup line, that could manage the excess load (this happened during peak hours, 5 p.m. during a working day).Ok, these are official explanations and the blackouts may have been caused by evil hackers but, in this case, the brazilian government made an excelent job holding that information for years, leaking now thanks to an american former military that may have some vested interest spreading fear.2 cents..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028960</id>
	<title>Re:If the power grid is so vulnerable, why hasn't.</title>
	<author>blueg3</author>
	<datestamp>1257703020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The systems are vulnerable compared to their value. They're still not <i>easy</i> to take down -- but they have egregiously poor security compared to how important it is that they remain working.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The systems are vulnerable compared to their value .
They 're still not easy to take down -- but they have egregiously poor security compared to how important it is that they remain working .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The systems are vulnerable compared to their value.
They're still not easy to take down -- but they have egregiously poor security compared to how important it is that they remain working.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027900</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027488</id>
	<title>Northeast Blackout of 2003</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257690660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You spend the money in such a way as to make the system generally more robust, not just against terrorist attacks, but also against acts of nature, disgruntled employees, criminal extortion, and sheer human idiocy. </p><p>A lot of US infrastructure has been desperately vulnerable for years. How many terrorists would it take to black out fifty million people in North America? Apparently zero. </p><p>Remember the <b> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NortheastBlackoutof2003" title="wikipedia.org">Northeast Blackout of 2003</a> [wikipedia.org] </b>? <br>
If the reporting was accurate, that affected 55 million people across eight US states (and Ontario), and was caused by a lightning strike<br> Getting the grid rebooted seemed to involve a hell of a lot of grief.<br>
If the reporting <i>wasn't</i> accurate (and we go down the "conspiracy theory" route), then maybe the hypothetical attack has already happened, back in 2003. </p><p>So which idea's the more scary? That we lost the Northeastern grid in 2003 through malicious intervention, or that it simply failed and "dominoed" all by itself after some nasty spikes in Canada?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You spend the money in such a way as to make the system generally more robust , not just against terrorist attacks , but also against acts of nature , disgruntled employees , criminal extortion , and sheer human idiocy .
A lot of US infrastructure has been desperately vulnerable for years .
How many terrorists would it take to black out fifty million people in North America ?
Apparently zero .
Remember the Northeast Blackout of 2003 [ wikipedia.org ] ?
If the reporting was accurate , that affected 55 million people across eight US states ( and Ontario ) , and was caused by a lightning strike Getting the grid rebooted seemed to involve a hell of a lot of grief .
If the reporting was n't accurate ( and we go down the " conspiracy theory " route ) , then maybe the hypothetical attack has already happened , back in 2003 .
So which idea 's the more scary ?
That we lost the Northeastern grid in 2003 through malicious intervention , or that it simply failed and " dominoed " all by itself after some nasty spikes in Canada ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You spend the money in such a way as to make the system generally more robust, not just against terrorist attacks, but also against acts of nature, disgruntled employees, criminal extortion, and sheer human idiocy.
A lot of US infrastructure has been desperately vulnerable for years.
How many terrorists would it take to black out fifty million people in North America?
Apparently zero.
Remember the  Northeast Blackout of 2003 [wikipedia.org] ?
If the reporting was accurate, that affected 55 million people across eight US states (and Ontario), and was caused by a lightning strike Getting the grid rebooted seemed to involve a hell of a lot of grief.
If the reporting wasn't accurate (and we go down the "conspiracy theory" route), then maybe the hypothetical attack has already happened, back in 2003.
So which idea's the more scary?
That we lost the Northeastern grid in 2003 through malicious intervention, or that it simply failed and "dominoed" all by itself after some nasty spikes in Canada?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027056</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028546</id>
	<title>I refuse to believe it</title>
	<author>MikeURL</author>
	<datestamp>1257699420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I refuse to believe that the US power grid is exposed to the internet the same way a google server is.  I just simply refuse to believe it.
<br> <br>
I guess the only evidence i have is my hope that electric company engineers are not idiots and the fact that grid does not crash every 5 minutes.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I refuse to believe that the US power grid is exposed to the internet the same way a google server is .
I just simply refuse to believe it .
I guess the only evidence i have is my hope that electric company engineers are not idiots and the fact that grid does not crash every 5 minutes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I refuse to believe that the US power grid is exposed to the internet the same way a google server is.
I just simply refuse to believe it.
I guess the only evidence i have is my hope that electric company engineers are not idiots and the fact that grid does not crash every 5 minutes.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028224</id>
	<title>There's one solution that always works: AIRGAP</title>
	<author>ancient\_kings</author>
	<datestamp>1257696720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>That's right you dumb mutha-humpers, you do NOT connect critical infrastructure to the internet. PERIOD. Do this any you'll see the amount of "attacks" go to ZERO. This is all hype for certian defense companies to rape the US Government out of the tax-payers money. AIRGAP critical infrastructure and all your worries will be gone permenantly. THE END.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's right you dumb mutha-humpers , you do NOT connect critical infrastructure to the internet .
PERIOD. Do this any you 'll see the amount of " attacks " go to ZERO .
This is all hype for certian defense companies to rape the US Government out of the tax-payers money .
AIRGAP critical infrastructure and all your worries will be gone permenantly .
THE END .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's right you dumb mutha-humpers, you do NOT connect critical infrastructure to the internet.
PERIOD. Do this any you'll see the amount of "attacks" go to ZERO.
This is all hype for certian defense companies to rape the US Government out of the tax-payers money.
AIRGAP critical infrastructure and all your worries will be gone permenantly.
THE END.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027028</id>
	<title>Security</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257687300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most systems here in the US are only secure because they're obscure.  Someone who has worked in the industry for more than about a year has enough knowledge to cause some widespread destruction.  Up until recently, the emergency broadcast service was only a phone number and modem, with no authentication!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most systems here in the US are only secure because they 're obscure .
Someone who has worked in the industry for more than about a year has enough knowledge to cause some widespread destruction .
Up until recently , the emergency broadcast service was only a phone number and modem , with no authentication !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most systems here in the US are only secure because they're obscure.
Someone who has worked in the industry for more than about a year has enough knowledge to cause some widespread destruction.
Up until recently, the emergency broadcast service was only a phone number and modem, with no authentication!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027490</id>
	<title>Re:Security</title>
	<author>barik</author>
	<datestamp>1257690660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I concur. Airports are the same way, and still this way. Many are running standard PLCs like Allen-Bradley or Modicon. They are connected directly to a modem line with no authentication. So grab yourself a copy of RSLogix or Unity Pro, dial into these places, and have fun modifying the ladder logic and wreak havoc on the airport as all bags get re-routed to who knows where. I've seen the same issues with power plants and water treatment facilities.</p><p>The only upside is that the modem line isn't hooked up all the time these days. It's usually just when they need someone to dial in, and then a worker at the facility will go and hook up the line.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I concur .
Airports are the same way , and still this way .
Many are running standard PLCs like Allen-Bradley or Modicon .
They are connected directly to a modem line with no authentication .
So grab yourself a copy of RSLogix or Unity Pro , dial into these places , and have fun modifying the ladder logic and wreak havoc on the airport as all bags get re-routed to who knows where .
I 've seen the same issues with power plants and water treatment facilities.The only upside is that the modem line is n't hooked up all the time these days .
It 's usually just when they need someone to dial in , and then a worker at the facility will go and hook up the line .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I concur.
Airports are the same way, and still this way.
Many are running standard PLCs like Allen-Bradley or Modicon.
They are connected directly to a modem line with no authentication.
So grab yourself a copy of RSLogix or Unity Pro, dial into these places, and have fun modifying the ladder logic and wreak havoc on the airport as all bags get re-routed to who knows where.
I've seen the same issues with power plants and water treatment facilities.The only upside is that the modem line isn't hooked up all the time these days.
It's usually just when they need someone to dial in, and then a worker at the facility will go and hook up the line.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027028</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30034632</id>
	<title>Re:Northeast Blackout of 2003</title>
	<author>Amnenth</author>
	<datestamp>1257789480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Remember the <b> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast\_Blackout\_of\_2003" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">Northeast Blackout of 2003</a> [wikipedia.org] </b>?</p><p>...That we lost the Northeastern grid in 2003 through malicious intervention, or that it simply failed and "dominoed" all by itself after some nasty spikes in Canada?</p></div><p>Hey, don't blame us. The article you referenced (link fixed) pegs the domino effect as starting from within Ohio.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Remember the Northeast Blackout of 2003 [ wikipedia.org ] ? ...That we lost the Northeastern grid in 2003 through malicious intervention , or that it simply failed and " dominoed " all by itself after some nasty spikes in Canada ? Hey , do n't blame us .
The article you referenced ( link fixed ) pegs the domino effect as starting from within Ohio .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Remember the  Northeast Blackout of 2003 [wikipedia.org] ?...That we lost the Northeastern grid in 2003 through malicious intervention, or that it simply failed and "dominoed" all by itself after some nasty spikes in Canada?Hey, don't blame us.
The article you referenced (link fixed) pegs the domino effect as starting from within Ohio.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027488</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027976</id>
	<title>and the attack stopped</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257694680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>just because the hacker didn't have an UPS...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>just because the hacker did n't have an UPS.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>just because the hacker didn't have an UPS...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30032052</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257779160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Oh well, let's spend a bunch of money on fear like we always do. </i></p><p>Terrorists are the least of out worries here in the midwest US. In the winer we have ice storms, in the spring and summer we have storms and wind. An outage caused by hackers probably wouldn't last lomg here, but when a tornado rips through and destroys every utility pole and the equipment hanging from them, it'll take a while to get back on line.</p><p>When the <a href="http://slashdot.org/~mcgrew/journal/225401" title="slashdot.org">tornados ripped through here in 2006,</a> [slashdot.org] as I walked through the destruction in search of a hot cup of coffee the next day, the thing I thought most was "If Bin Laden saw this he'd give up. No way could a terrorist do this much damage!"</p><p>The threat is narural events. The danger from terrorists is minimal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh well , let 's spend a bunch of money on fear like we always do .
Terrorists are the least of out worries here in the midwest US .
In the winer we have ice storms , in the spring and summer we have storms and wind .
An outage caused by hackers probably would n't last lomg here , but when a tornado rips through and destroys every utility pole and the equipment hanging from them , it 'll take a while to get back on line.When the tornados ripped through here in 2006 , [ slashdot.org ] as I walked through the destruction in search of a hot cup of coffee the next day , the thing I thought most was " If Bin Laden saw this he 'd give up .
No way could a terrorist do this much damage !
" The threat is narural events .
The danger from terrorists is minimal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh well, let's spend a bunch of money on fear like we always do.
Terrorists are the least of out worries here in the midwest US.
In the winer we have ice storms, in the spring and summer we have storms and wind.
An outage caused by hackers probably wouldn't last lomg here, but when a tornado rips through and destroys every utility pole and the equipment hanging from them, it'll take a while to get back on line.When the tornados ripped through here in 2006, [slashdot.org] as I walked through the destruction in search of a hot cup of coffee the next day, the thing I thought most was "If Bin Laden saw this he'd give up.
No way could a terrorist do this much damage!
"The threat is narural events.
The danger from terrorists is minimal.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30033852</id>
	<title>Re:So how exactly does this work?</title>
	<author>kalirion</author>
	<datestamp>1257786540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't worry, unless you're logged in as admin, the button is hidden through inline CSS.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't worry , unless you 're logged in as admin , the button is hidden through inline CSS .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't worry, unless you're logged in as admin, the button is hidden through inline CSS.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026966</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027020</id>
	<title>Internets...</title>
	<author>Shadyman</author>
	<datestamp>1257687300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Things like this make me wonder why mission- and life-critical systems are (presumably) set up on Internet-facing systems. Sure, it's cheap, but when the walls come tumbling down like this article implies, cost is a moot point. <br> <br> I don't see why they can't just buy a phone line for each power station and link to central stations (also with NON-Internet-facing systems) like that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Things like this make me wonder why mission- and life-critical systems are ( presumably ) set up on Internet-facing systems .
Sure , it 's cheap , but when the walls come tumbling down like this article implies , cost is a moot point .
I do n't see why they ca n't just buy a phone line for each power station and link to central stations ( also with NON-Internet-facing systems ) like that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Things like this make me wonder why mission- and life-critical systems are (presumably) set up on Internet-facing systems.
Sure, it's cheap, but when the walls come tumbling down like this article implies, cost is a moot point.
I don't see why they can't just buy a phone line for each power station and link to central stations (also with NON-Internet-facing systems) like that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30035654</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Lord Ender</author>
	<datestamp>1257793560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Impenetrable security doesn't exist, but it is far far cheaper to have a team of dedicated IT security auditors, analysts, and pen testers than it is to carpet the continent in backup generators. You don't have to have perfect security, just enough to make it not worth an attacker's while.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Impenetrable security does n't exist , but it is far far cheaper to have a team of dedicated IT security auditors , analysts , and pen testers than it is to carpet the continent in backup generators .
You do n't have to have perfect security , just enough to make it not worth an attacker 's while .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Impenetrable security doesn't exist, but it is far far cheaper to have a team of dedicated IT security auditors, analysts, and pen testers than it is to carpet the continent in backup generators.
You don't have to have perfect security, just enough to make it not worth an attacker's while.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026900</id>
	<title>THE TRUTH!!  DO NOT MOD DOWN!! +5 INFORMATIVE</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257686700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Imagine a giant penis flying towards your mouth, and there's nothing you can do about it. And you're like "Oh man, I'm gonna have to suck this thing", and you brace yourself to suck this giant penis. But then, at the last moment, it changes trajectory and hits you in the eye. You think to yourself "Well, at least I got that out of the way", but then the giant penis rears back and stabs your eye again, and again, and again. Eventually, this giant penis is penetrating your gray matter, and you begin to lose control of your motor skills. That's when the giant penis slaps you across the cheek, causing you to fall out of your chair. Unable to move and at your most vulnerable, the giant penis finally lodges itself in your anus, where it rests uncomfortably for 4, maybe 5 hours. That's what using Slashdot is like.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Imagine a giant penis flying towards your mouth , and there 's nothing you can do about it .
And you 're like " Oh man , I 'm gon na have to suck this thing " , and you brace yourself to suck this giant penis .
But then , at the last moment , it changes trajectory and hits you in the eye .
You think to yourself " Well , at least I got that out of the way " , but then the giant penis rears back and stabs your eye again , and again , and again .
Eventually , this giant penis is penetrating your gray matter , and you begin to lose control of your motor skills .
That 's when the giant penis slaps you across the cheek , causing you to fall out of your chair .
Unable to move and at your most vulnerable , the giant penis finally lodges itself in your anus , where it rests uncomfortably for 4 , maybe 5 hours .
That 's what using Slashdot is like .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Imagine a giant penis flying towards your mouth, and there's nothing you can do about it.
And you're like "Oh man, I'm gonna have to suck this thing", and you brace yourself to suck this giant penis.
But then, at the last moment, it changes trajectory and hits you in the eye.
You think to yourself "Well, at least I got that out of the way", but then the giant penis rears back and stabs your eye again, and again, and again.
Eventually, this giant penis is penetrating your gray matter, and you begin to lose control of your motor skills.
That's when the giant penis slaps you across the cheek, causing you to fall out of your chair.
Unable to move and at your most vulnerable, the giant penis finally lodges itself in your anus, where it rests uncomfortably for 4, maybe 5 hours.
That's what using Slashdot is like.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028490</id>
	<title>Smart grid makes it more exposed to hacking</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257699060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Smart grid makes it more exposed to hacking.  If we're talking about the ability to manage major appliances such that they can be spread out so that we can put a higher load on the grid without overloading it, imagine if someone broke into that system and did the opposite by synchronizing usage.  Coupled with the fact that loads are even higher, it's a perfect storm for melting down parts of the grid which would take a long time to repair.  During that time, people who are most vulnerable (the elderly) would die.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Smart grid makes it more exposed to hacking .
If we 're talking about the ability to manage major appliances such that they can be spread out so that we can put a higher load on the grid without overloading it , imagine if someone broke into that system and did the opposite by synchronizing usage .
Coupled with the fact that loads are even higher , it 's a perfect storm for melting down parts of the grid which would take a long time to repair .
During that time , people who are most vulnerable ( the elderly ) would die .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Smart grid makes it more exposed to hacking.
If we're talking about the ability to manage major appliances such that they can be spread out so that we can put a higher load on the grid without overloading it, imagine if someone broke into that system and did the opposite by synchronizing usage.
Coupled with the fact that loads are even higher, it's a perfect storm for melting down parts of the grid which would take a long time to repair.
During that time, people who are most vulnerable (the elderly) would die.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027868</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028358</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Grishnakh</author>
	<datestamp>1257697800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>As we all should know by now, impenetrable security doesn't exist.</i></p><p>Totally impenetrable physical security doesn't exist, but totally impenetrable <b>electronic</b> security most certainly does.  It's quite simple to make something completely immune to hacker attacks over the internet: disconnect it from the internet!</p><p>Why the nation's power grid control absolutely needs to be tied into the internet, I have no idea.  Maybe someone in the field can enlighten me.  But if this is a big concern, it seems like it'd be pretty to eliminate the security threat by not having any control over the power grid exposed to the internet.  If someone needs to exercise some control over the system, they have to get in their car and drive to the power plant.</p><p>Of course, this wouldn't prevent someone from sneaking in somehow, but that's a far more remote danger than some hacker on the internet (who could be anywhere in the world, and probably not anywhere near your power plant) gaining access.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As we all should know by now , impenetrable security does n't exist.Totally impenetrable physical security does n't exist , but totally impenetrable electronic security most certainly does .
It 's quite simple to make something completely immune to hacker attacks over the internet : disconnect it from the internet ! Why the nation 's power grid control absolutely needs to be tied into the internet , I have no idea .
Maybe someone in the field can enlighten me .
But if this is a big concern , it seems like it 'd be pretty to eliminate the security threat by not having any control over the power grid exposed to the internet .
If someone needs to exercise some control over the system , they have to get in their car and drive to the power plant.Of course , this would n't prevent someone from sneaking in somehow , but that 's a far more remote danger than some hacker on the internet ( who could be anywhere in the world , and probably not anywhere near your power plant ) gaining access .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As we all should know by now, impenetrable security doesn't exist.Totally impenetrable physical security doesn't exist, but totally impenetrable electronic security most certainly does.
It's quite simple to make something completely immune to hacker attacks over the internet: disconnect it from the internet!Why the nation's power grid control absolutely needs to be tied into the internet, I have no idea.
Maybe someone in the field can enlighten me.
But if this is a big concern, it seems like it'd be pretty to eliminate the security threat by not having any control over the power grid exposed to the internet.
If someone needs to exercise some control over the system, they have to get in their car and drive to the power plant.Of course, this wouldn't prevent someone from sneaking in somehow, but that's a far more remote danger than some hacker on the internet (who could be anywhere in the world, and probably not anywhere near your power plant) gaining access.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30035722</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Lord Ender</author>
	<datestamp>1257793800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You clearly don't work in IT security. Viruses come in on thumb drives, iPods, etc.. You don't need to be on the internet to have malware rip through your network.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You clearly do n't work in IT security .
Viruses come in on thumb drives , iPods , etc.. You do n't need to be on the internet to have malware rip through your network .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You clearly don't work in IT security.
Viruses come in on thumb drives, iPods, etc.. You don't need to be on the internet to have malware rip through your network.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028358</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029226</id>
	<title>Re:Internets...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257705960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Things like this make me wonder why mission- and life-critical systems are (presumably) set up on Internet-facing systems.</p></div><p>No one is stupid enough to intentionally setup critical systems on an internet facing network.  What happens is that there ends up being some link between the secure and externally facing networks.  This could be due to network misconfiguration or transferring a laptop from one network to the other or accidentally plugging something into the wrong network.  It takes a lot of work to guarantee that things are properly segregated and the utility companies just don't want to do that.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Things like this make me wonder why mission- and life-critical systems are ( presumably ) set up on Internet-facing systems.No one is stupid enough to intentionally setup critical systems on an internet facing network .
What happens is that there ends up being some link between the secure and externally facing networks .
This could be due to network misconfiguration or transferring a laptop from one network to the other or accidentally plugging something into the wrong network .
It takes a lot of work to guarantee that things are properly segregated and the utility companies just do n't want to do that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Things like this make me wonder why mission- and life-critical systems are (presumably) set up on Internet-facing systems.No one is stupid enough to intentionally setup critical systems on an internet facing network.
What happens is that there ends up being some link between the secure and externally facing networks.
This could be due to network misconfiguration or transferring a laptop from one network to the other or accidentally plugging something into the wrong network.
It takes a lot of work to guarantee that things are properly segregated and the utility companies just don't want to do that.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028344</id>
	<title>Stupid.</title>
	<author>jaygridley</author>
	<datestamp>1257697620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There is no reason for the grid to be connected to any public data network. Period.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is no reason for the grid to be connected to any public data network .
Period .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is no reason for the grid to be connected to any public data network.
Period.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030770</id>
	<title>Re:If the power grid is so vulnerable, why hasn't.</title>
	<author>VShael</author>
	<datestamp>1257767460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Yet it hasn't happened here or Western Europe or most modern Asian countries. Why?</i></p><p>Because the enemies you keep hearing about, are neither as a numerous nor as powerful as your government would like you to believe.</p><p>It suits the agenda of those in power, to have a public who are so shit-scared about terrorists, that they will accept any indignity, any intrusion into their lives, any loss of freedom... just to make the terrorism fear go away.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yet it has n't happened here or Western Europe or most modern Asian countries .
Why ? Because the enemies you keep hearing about , are neither as a numerous nor as powerful as your government would like you to believe.It suits the agenda of those in power , to have a public who are so shit-scared about terrorists , that they will accept any indignity , any intrusion into their lives , any loss of freedom... just to make the terrorism fear go away .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yet it hasn't happened here or Western Europe or most modern Asian countries.
Why?Because the enemies you keep hearing about, are neither as a numerous nor as powerful as your government would like you to believe.It suits the agenda of those in power, to have a public who are so shit-scared about terrorists, that they will accept any indignity, any intrusion into their lives, any loss of freedom... just to make the terrorism fear go away.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027900</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027640</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>jeffstar</author>
	<datestamp>1257691740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>there's the attitude: There is always somebody out there smarter than you, and there is always going to be a bug or security vulnerability somewhere in the system.</p><p>There was an interesting blog in the economist magazine pondering what else could be done with the 680 billion the US spends annually on defense.</p><p>While the US has spent a trillion in Iraq the chinese have spent a trillion improving their infrastructure.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>there 's the attitude : There is always somebody out there smarter than you , and there is always going to be a bug or security vulnerability somewhere in the system.There was an interesting blog in the economist magazine pondering what else could be done with the 680 billion the US spends annually on defense.While the US has spent a trillion in Iraq the chinese have spent a trillion improving their infrastructure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>there's the attitude: There is always somebody out there smarter than you, and there is always going to be a bug or security vulnerability somewhere in the system.There was an interesting blog in the economist magazine pondering what else could be done with the 680 billion the US spends annually on defense.While the US has spent a trillion in Iraq the chinese have spent a trillion improving their infrastructure.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30031178</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257773400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It isn't necessarily on the Internet. SCADA systems are accessible via ISDN, X.25 and even radio/wireless. Don't make the mistake assuming that attackers' only venue is the Internet.</p><p>The simple fact is that regular security assessments run by an independent entity with vested interest in infrastructure security are required; this includes physical and electronic security. In fact separating security into distinct domains is a mistake - attackers don't, so why should we?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is n't necessarily on the Internet .
SCADA systems are accessible via ISDN , X.25 and even radio/wireless .
Do n't make the mistake assuming that attackers ' only venue is the Internet.The simple fact is that regular security assessments run by an independent entity with vested interest in infrastructure security are required ; this includes physical and electronic security .
In fact separating security into distinct domains is a mistake - attackers do n't , so why should we ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It isn't necessarily on the Internet.
SCADA systems are accessible via ISDN, X.25 and even radio/wireless.
Don't make the mistake assuming that attackers' only venue is the Internet.The simple fact is that regular security assessments run by an independent entity with vested interest in infrastructure security are required; this includes physical and electronic security.
In fact separating security into distinct domains is a mistake - attackers don't, so why should we?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028358</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027890</id>
	<title>Internet is Perfectly Save as a Bearer</title>
	<author>omb</author>
	<datestamp>1257693780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>OK, this another stupid meme:<br><br>1. Physical security of your systems, you must not make stupid assumptions; vide FortHood.<br><br>2. Over wide areas, connectivity security is paramount, and, because of its military origins it is designed for that; TCP connections are hugely resilient to network failures.<br><br>3. You are responsible for your own data, and if it, and your control system is important, you need a VPN. The Internet provides robust resialiance, your VPN must deal with data security, and if you can co-factor the APIs that is good. YOU take responsibilities for communication failure (and provide technical mitigation) and you also need to ensure your data is SECURE and can't be HACKED&amp;#160;into. That means strong and effective enterprise security management encouraged by putting the CEO in jail if his company is negligent.</htmltext>
<tokenext>OK , this another stupid meme : 1 .
Physical security of your systems , you must not make stupid assumptions ; vide FortHood.2 .
Over wide areas , connectivity security is paramount , and , because of its military origins it is designed for that ; TCP connections are hugely resilient to network failures.3 .
You are responsible for your own data , and if it , and your control system is important , you need a VPN .
The Internet provides robust resialiance , your VPN must deal with data security , and if you can co-factor the APIs that is good .
YOU take responsibilities for communication failure ( and provide technical mitigation ) and you also need to ensure your data is SECURE and ca n't be HACKED   into .
That means strong and effective enterprise security management encouraged by putting the CEO in jail if his company is negligent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>OK, this another stupid meme:1.
Physical security of your systems, you must not make stupid assumptions; vide FortHood.2.
Over wide areas, connectivity security is paramount, and, because of its military origins it is designed for that; TCP connections are hugely resilient to network failures.3.
You are responsible for your own data, and if it, and your control system is important, you need a VPN.
The Internet provides robust resialiance, your VPN must deal with data security, and if you can co-factor the APIs that is good.
YOU take responsibilities for communication failure (and provide technical mitigation) and you also need to ensure your data is SECURE and can't be HACKED into.
That means strong and effective enterprise security management encouraged by putting the CEO in jail if his company is negligent.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028606</id>
	<title>Re:Internets...</title>
	<author>Bender0x7D1</author>
	<datestamp>1257700080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unfortunately, there is only a finite amount of money that can be spent on these systems.  So, if they spend more money securing the control systems, there is something else in the system getting its corners cut.</p><p>Do I think securing the control system is important?  Yes.  Do I think it's the most important aspect of the system?  I don't know - it depends on the system.  If skimping on security means a company can get $GADGET into one more hospital, or wherever, then maybe it'll save more lives by being there than lives are lost by having the system go down because the control system isn't secured.  It could even mean less downtime if remote administration means shorter outages in the course of regular use.</p><p>However, if they are skimping on security because they want to pad the bottom line then I wish explosive diarrhea on them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unfortunately , there is only a finite amount of money that can be spent on these systems .
So , if they spend more money securing the control systems , there is something else in the system getting its corners cut.Do I think securing the control system is important ?
Yes. Do I think it 's the most important aspect of the system ?
I do n't know - it depends on the system .
If skimping on security means a company can get $ GADGET into one more hospital , or wherever , then maybe it 'll save more lives by being there than lives are lost by having the system go down because the control system is n't secured .
It could even mean less downtime if remote administration means shorter outages in the course of regular use.However , if they are skimping on security because they want to pad the bottom line then I wish explosive diarrhea on them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unfortunately, there is only a finite amount of money that can be spent on these systems.
So, if they spend more money securing the control systems, there is something else in the system getting its corners cut.Do I think securing the control system is important?
Yes.  Do I think it's the most important aspect of the system?
I don't know - it depends on the system.
If skimping on security means a company can get $GADGET into one more hospital, or wherever, then maybe it'll save more lives by being there than lives are lost by having the system go down because the control system isn't secured.
It could even mean less downtime if remote administration means shorter outages in the course of regular use.However, if they are skimping on security because they want to pad the bottom line then I wish explosive diarrhea on them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028102</id>
	<title>this really a 2012 paln to save the power grid by</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257695760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>this really a 2012 plan to save the power grid by turning it off for a some time and save it by having it off when the em field go nuts.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>this really a 2012 plan to save the power grid by turning it off for a some time and save it by having it off when the em field go nuts .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>this really a 2012 plan to save the power grid by turning it off for a some time and save it by having it off when the em field go nuts.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029678</id>
	<title>Re:So...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257797940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Perhaps a solution would be a box that sits on both networks and only passes queries for payroll and HR uses from the side with the systems to the HR segment?  This can be done in multiple ways, either by grabbing data from the systems and forwarding just the HR data across the pipe, to taking the queries.</p><p>I still like the two systems connected together via a serial or IEEE1394 connection where one passes a data stream to the other box, so the inside box has no IP stack touchable without physical access.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Perhaps a solution would be a box that sits on both networks and only passes queries for payroll and HR uses from the side with the systems to the HR segment ?
This can be done in multiple ways , either by grabbing data from the systems and forwarding just the HR data across the pipe , to taking the queries.I still like the two systems connected together via a serial or IEEE1394 connection where one passes a data stream to the other box , so the inside box has no IP stack touchable without physical access .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perhaps a solution would be a box that sits on both networks and only passes queries for payroll and HR uses from the side with the systems to the HR segment?
This can be done in multiple ways, either by grabbing data from the systems and forwarding just the HR data across the pipe, to taking the queries.I still like the two systems connected together via a serial or IEEE1394 connection where one passes a data stream to the other box, so the inside box has no IP stack touchable without physical access.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027542</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30032506</id>
	<title>Why have these systems on the internet?</title>
	<author>kannibul</author>
	<datestamp>1257781200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Such a simple solution...keep at least 1 staff person there (3 shifts) and have a computer that connects their desktop system to where-ever it needs to go - but leave the systems that manages the critical systems off the internet...100\% hacker proof.

There is plenty of room in a profit-margin to employ someone to sit there and watch a screen.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Such a simple solution...keep at least 1 staff person there ( 3 shifts ) and have a computer that connects their desktop system to where-ever it needs to go - but leave the systems that manages the critical systems off the internet...100 \ % hacker proof .
There is plenty of room in a profit-margin to employ someone to sit there and watch a screen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Such a simple solution...keep at least 1 staff person there (3 shifts) and have a computer that connects their desktop system to where-ever it needs to go - but leave the systems that manages the critical systems off the internet...100\% hacker proof.
There is plenty of room in a profit-margin to employ someone to sit there and watch a screen.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027056</id>
	<title>Re:Hit'em in their wallets</title>
	<author>stagg</author>
	<datestamp>1257687540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>But how much energy can congress really expect them to expend defending against imagined threats?</htmltext>
<tokenext>But how much energy can congress really expect them to expend defending against imagined threats ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But how much energy can congress really expect them to expend defending against imagined threats?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030142</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>SeaFox</author>
	<datestamp>1257759780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> <i>As we all should know by now, impenetrable security doesn't exist. What we should probably have is tighter backup power for essential services and places like hospitals, where local redundancy could help in the face of a remote 'hacker' type attack</i></p><p><i>Places where there is a lot of danger for people without electrical power don't need billions spent on the security of their power systems. They need redundancy, generators in their buildings that could be used to keep people alive, batteries, and common sense.</i></p></div> </blockquote><p>We could also just decentralize the power grid so it isn't possible to crash the entire system by screwing around with <i>one</i> utility company. With many smaller independent companies the compromised system could be isolated and only a small number of customers would have interrupted power.</p><p>Such a feat would be a great side benefit from adopting more renewable energy sources, having a collective metropolitan area served by several small solar/wind/hydroelectric stations interspersed geographically within the area, rather than a big traditional power plant outside of town. Not to mention higher efficiency from less line transport to the customer.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As we all should know by now , impenetrable security does n't exist .
What we should probably have is tighter backup power for essential services and places like hospitals , where local redundancy could help in the face of a remote 'hacker ' type attackPlaces where there is a lot of danger for people without electrical power do n't need billions spent on the security of their power systems .
They need redundancy , generators in their buildings that could be used to keep people alive , batteries , and common sense .
We could also just decentralize the power grid so it is n't possible to crash the entire system by screwing around with one utility company .
With many smaller independent companies the compromised system could be isolated and only a small number of customers would have interrupted power.Such a feat would be a great side benefit from adopting more renewable energy sources , having a collective metropolitan area served by several small solar/wind/hydroelectric stations interspersed geographically within the area , rather than a big traditional power plant outside of town .
Not to mention higher efficiency from less line transport to the customer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> As we all should know by now, impenetrable security doesn't exist.
What we should probably have is tighter backup power for essential services and places like hospitals, where local redundancy could help in the face of a remote 'hacker' type attackPlaces where there is a lot of danger for people without electrical power don't need billions spent on the security of their power systems.
They need redundancy, generators in their buildings that could be used to keep people alive, batteries, and common sense.
We could also just decentralize the power grid so it isn't possible to crash the entire system by screwing around with one utility company.
With many smaller independent companies the compromised system could be isolated and only a small number of customers would have interrupted power.Such a feat would be a great side benefit from adopting more renewable energy sources, having a collective metropolitan area served by several small solar/wind/hydroelectric stations interspersed geographically within the area, rather than a big traditional power plant outside of town.
Not to mention higher efficiency from less line transport to the customer.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029436</id>
	<title>Slashdot is slow</title>
	<author>michaelhawk</author>
	<datestamp>1257709200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've seen these stories floated on other sites for days now.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've seen these stories floated on other sites for days now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've seen these stories floated on other sites for days now.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30033732</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>elrous0</author>
	<datestamp>1257786060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> <i>"We need to find a way to force utility companies to take these threats seriously"</i></p></div> </blockquote><p>

Unfortunately about the only way to do that would be to nationalize the U.S. electrical infrastructure. And if you tried that, you're going to have over two hundred Republicans, the entire staff of Fox News, and a bunch of DINO Democrats in Congress screaming bloody murder, beating their chests, flagellating themselves, screaming "KARL MARX! KARL MARX!," and calling for the impeachment of Barack Obama for high treason.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" We need to find a way to force utility companies to take these threats seriously " Unfortunately about the only way to do that would be to nationalize the U.S. electrical infrastructure .
And if you tried that , you 're going to have over two hundred Republicans , the entire staff of Fox News , and a bunch of DINO Democrats in Congress screaming bloody murder , beating their chests , flagellating themselves , screaming " KARL MARX !
KARL MARX ! , " and calling for the impeachment of Barack Obama for high treason .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> "We need to find a way to force utility companies to take these threats seriously" 

Unfortunately about the only way to do that would be to nationalize the U.S. electrical infrastructure.
And if you tried that, you're going to have over two hundred Republicans, the entire staff of Fox News, and a bunch of DINO Democrats in Congress screaming bloody murder, beating their chests, flagellating themselves, screaming "KARL MARX!
KARL MARX!," and calling for the impeachment of Barack Obama for high treason.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028864</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026864</id>
	<title>Your official guide to the Jigaboo presidency</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257686460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Congratulations on your purchase of a brand new nigger! If handled properly, your apeman will give years of valuable, if reluctant, service.</p><p>INSTALLING YOUR NIGGER.<br>You should install your nigger differently according to whether you have purchased the field or house model. Field niggers work best in a serial configuration, i.e. chained together. Chain your nigger to another nigger immediately after unpacking it, and don't even think about taking that chain off, ever. Many niggers start singing as soon as you put a chain on them. This habit can usually be thrashed out of them if nipped in the bud. House niggers work best as standalone units, but should be hobbled or hamstrung to prevent attempts at escape. At this stage, your nigger can also be given a name. Most owners use the same names over and over, since niggers become confused by too much data. Rufus, Rastus, Remus, Toby, Carslisle, Carlton, Hey-You!-Yes-you!, Yeller, Blackstar, and Sambo are all effective names for your new buck nigger. If your nigger is a ho, it should be called Latrelle, L'Tanya, or Jemima. Some owners call their nigger hoes Latrine for a joke. Pearl, Blossom, and Ivory are also righteous names for nigger hoes. These names go straight over your nigger's head, by the way.</p><p>CONFIGURING YOUR NIGGER<br>Owing to a design error, your nigger comes equipped with a tongue and vocal chords. Most niggers can master only a few basic human phrases with this apparatus - "muh dick" being the most popular. However, others make barking, yelping, yapping noises and appear to be in some pain, so you should probably call a vet and have him remove your nigger's tongue. Once de-tongued your nigger will be a lot happier - at least, you won't hear it complaining anywhere near as much. Niggers have nothing interesting to say, anyway. Many owners also castrate their niggers for health reasons (yours, mine, and that of women, not the nigger's). This is strongly recommended, and frankly, it's a mystery why this is not done on the boat</p><p>HOUSING YOUR NIGGER.<br>Your nigger can be accommodated in cages with stout iron bars. Make sure, however, that the bars are wide enough to push pieces of nigger food through. The rule of thumb is, four niggers per square yard of cage. So a fifteen foot by thirty foot nigger cage can accommodate two hundred niggers. You can site a nigger cage anywhere, even on soft ground. Don't worry about your nigger fashioning makeshift shovels out of odd pieces of wood and digging an escape tunnel under the bars of the cage. Niggers never invented the shovel before and they're not about to now. In any case, your nigger is certainly too lazy to attempt escape. As long as the free food holds out, your nigger is living better than it did in Africa, so it will stay put. Buck niggers and hoe niggers can be safely accommodated in the same cage, as bucks never attempt sex with black hoes.</p><p>FEEDING YOUR NIGGER.<br>Your Nigger likes fried chicken, corn bread, and watermelon. You should therefore give it none of these things because its lazy ass almost certainly doesn't deserve it. Instead, feed it on porridge with salt, and creek water. Your nigger will supplement its diet with whatever it finds in the fields, other niggers, etc. Experienced nigger owners sometimes push watermelon slices through the bars of the nigger cage at the end of the day as a treat, but only if all niggers have worked well and nothing has been stolen that day. Mike of the Old Ranch Plantation reports that this last one is a killer, since all niggers steal something almost every single day of their lives. He reports he doesn't have to spend much on free watermelon for his niggers as a result. You should never allow your nigger meal breaks while at work, since if it stops work for more than ten minutes it will need to be retrained. You would be surprised how long it takes to teach a nigger to pick cotton. You really would. Coffee beans? Don't ask. You have no idea.</p><p>MAKING YOUR NIGGER WORK.<br>Niggers are very, very averse to work of any kind. The nigger's most</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Congratulations on your purchase of a brand new nigger !
If handled properly , your apeman will give years of valuable , if reluctant , service.INSTALLING YOUR NIGGER.You should install your nigger differently according to whether you have purchased the field or house model .
Field niggers work best in a serial configuration , i.e .
chained together .
Chain your nigger to another nigger immediately after unpacking it , and do n't even think about taking that chain off , ever .
Many niggers start singing as soon as you put a chain on them .
This habit can usually be thrashed out of them if nipped in the bud .
House niggers work best as standalone units , but should be hobbled or hamstrung to prevent attempts at escape .
At this stage , your nigger can also be given a name .
Most owners use the same names over and over , since niggers become confused by too much data .
Rufus , Rastus , Remus , Toby , Carslisle , Carlton , Hey-You ! -Yes-you ! , Yeller , Blackstar , and Sambo are all effective names for your new buck nigger .
If your nigger is a ho , it should be called Latrelle , L'Tanya , or Jemima .
Some owners call their nigger hoes Latrine for a joke .
Pearl , Blossom , and Ivory are also righteous names for nigger hoes .
These names go straight over your nigger 's head , by the way.CONFIGURING YOUR NIGGEROwing to a design error , your nigger comes equipped with a tongue and vocal chords .
Most niggers can master only a few basic human phrases with this apparatus - " muh dick " being the most popular .
However , others make barking , yelping , yapping noises and appear to be in some pain , so you should probably call a vet and have him remove your nigger 's tongue .
Once de-tongued your nigger will be a lot happier - at least , you wo n't hear it complaining anywhere near as much .
Niggers have nothing interesting to say , anyway .
Many owners also castrate their niggers for health reasons ( yours , mine , and that of women , not the nigger 's ) .
This is strongly recommended , and frankly , it 's a mystery why this is not done on the boatHOUSING YOUR NIGGER.Your nigger can be accommodated in cages with stout iron bars .
Make sure , however , that the bars are wide enough to push pieces of nigger food through .
The rule of thumb is , four niggers per square yard of cage .
So a fifteen foot by thirty foot nigger cage can accommodate two hundred niggers .
You can site a nigger cage anywhere , even on soft ground .
Do n't worry about your nigger fashioning makeshift shovels out of odd pieces of wood and digging an escape tunnel under the bars of the cage .
Niggers never invented the shovel before and they 're not about to now .
In any case , your nigger is certainly too lazy to attempt escape .
As long as the free food holds out , your nigger is living better than it did in Africa , so it will stay put .
Buck niggers and hoe niggers can be safely accommodated in the same cage , as bucks never attempt sex with black hoes.FEEDING YOUR NIGGER.Your Nigger likes fried chicken , corn bread , and watermelon .
You should therefore give it none of these things because its lazy ass almost certainly does n't deserve it .
Instead , feed it on porridge with salt , and creek water .
Your nigger will supplement its diet with whatever it finds in the fields , other niggers , etc .
Experienced nigger owners sometimes push watermelon slices through the bars of the nigger cage at the end of the day as a treat , but only if all niggers have worked well and nothing has been stolen that day .
Mike of the Old Ranch Plantation reports that this last one is a killer , since all niggers steal something almost every single day of their lives .
He reports he does n't have to spend much on free watermelon for his niggers as a result .
You should never allow your nigger meal breaks while at work , since if it stops work for more than ten minutes it will need to be retrained .
You would be surprised how long it takes to teach a nigger to pick cotton .
You really would .
Coffee beans ?
Do n't ask .
You have no idea.MAKING YOUR NIGGER WORK.Niggers are very , very averse to work of any kind .
The nigger 's most</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Congratulations on your purchase of a brand new nigger!
If handled properly, your apeman will give years of valuable, if reluctant, service.INSTALLING YOUR NIGGER.You should install your nigger differently according to whether you have purchased the field or house model.
Field niggers work best in a serial configuration, i.e.
chained together.
Chain your nigger to another nigger immediately after unpacking it, and don't even think about taking that chain off, ever.
Many niggers start singing as soon as you put a chain on them.
This habit can usually be thrashed out of them if nipped in the bud.
House niggers work best as standalone units, but should be hobbled or hamstrung to prevent attempts at escape.
At this stage, your nigger can also be given a name.
Most owners use the same names over and over, since niggers become confused by too much data.
Rufus, Rastus, Remus, Toby, Carslisle, Carlton, Hey-You!-Yes-you!, Yeller, Blackstar, and Sambo are all effective names for your new buck nigger.
If your nigger is a ho, it should be called Latrelle, L'Tanya, or Jemima.
Some owners call their nigger hoes Latrine for a joke.
Pearl, Blossom, and Ivory are also righteous names for nigger hoes.
These names go straight over your nigger's head, by the way.CONFIGURING YOUR NIGGEROwing to a design error, your nigger comes equipped with a tongue and vocal chords.
Most niggers can master only a few basic human phrases with this apparatus - "muh dick" being the most popular.
However, others make barking, yelping, yapping noises and appear to be in some pain, so you should probably call a vet and have him remove your nigger's tongue.
Once de-tongued your nigger will be a lot happier - at least, you won't hear it complaining anywhere near as much.
Niggers have nothing interesting to say, anyway.
Many owners also castrate their niggers for health reasons (yours, mine, and that of women, not the nigger's).
This is strongly recommended, and frankly, it's a mystery why this is not done on the boatHOUSING YOUR NIGGER.Your nigger can be accommodated in cages with stout iron bars.
Make sure, however, that the bars are wide enough to push pieces of nigger food through.
The rule of thumb is, four niggers per square yard of cage.
So a fifteen foot by thirty foot nigger cage can accommodate two hundred niggers.
You can site a nigger cage anywhere, even on soft ground.
Don't worry about your nigger fashioning makeshift shovels out of odd pieces of wood and digging an escape tunnel under the bars of the cage.
Niggers never invented the shovel before and they're not about to now.
In any case, your nigger is certainly too lazy to attempt escape.
As long as the free food holds out, your nigger is living better than it did in Africa, so it will stay put.
Buck niggers and hoe niggers can be safely accommodated in the same cage, as bucks never attempt sex with black hoes.FEEDING YOUR NIGGER.Your Nigger likes fried chicken, corn bread, and watermelon.
You should therefore give it none of these things because its lazy ass almost certainly doesn't deserve it.
Instead, feed it on porridge with salt, and creek water.
Your nigger will supplement its diet with whatever it finds in the fields, other niggers, etc.
Experienced nigger owners sometimes push watermelon slices through the bars of the nigger cage at the end of the day as a treat, but only if all niggers have worked well and nothing has been stolen that day.
Mike of the Old Ranch Plantation reports that this last one is a killer, since all niggers steal something almost every single day of their lives.
He reports he doesn't have to spend much on free watermelon for his niggers as a result.
You should never allow your nigger meal breaks while at work, since if it stops work for more than ten minutes it will need to be retrained.
You would be surprised how long it takes to teach a nigger to pick cotton.
You really would.
Coffee beans?
Don't ask.
You have no idea.MAKING YOUR NIGGER WORK.Niggers are very, very averse to work of any kind.
The nigger's most</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028864</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257702180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>As we all should know by now, impenetrable security doesn't exist. What we should probably have is tighter backup power for essential services and places like hospitals, where local redundancy could help in the face of a remote 'hacker' type attack</p><p>Places where there is a lot of danger for people without electrical power don't need billions spent on the security of their power systems. They need redundancy, generators in their buildings that could be used to keep people alive, batteries, and common sense.</p></div><p>This isn't about impenetrable security.  This is about taking basic precautions about known attack vectors.  For example, many of these systems are not fail safe so an attacker can actually cause a generator to physically destroy itself.  Since these generators are very specialized pieces of equipment, you don't just go to Home Depot and pick up another one.</p><p>It is not enough to protect hospitals, etc.  A prolonged loss of power to the northern part of the US in the depths of winter would be devastating.  Even with backup power supplies, no one has plans to deal with a month of no electricity.</p><p>This isn't about spending money on fear.  It is about naively ignoring a threat and hoping it will never happen.  We need to find a way to force utility companies to take these threats seriously and the only way to do that is to have financial penalties for lax security.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As we all should know by now , impenetrable security does n't exist .
What we should probably have is tighter backup power for essential services and places like hospitals , where local redundancy could help in the face of a remote 'hacker ' type attackPlaces where there is a lot of danger for people without electrical power do n't need billions spent on the security of their power systems .
They need redundancy , generators in their buildings that could be used to keep people alive , batteries , and common sense.This is n't about impenetrable security .
This is about taking basic precautions about known attack vectors .
For example , many of these systems are not fail safe so an attacker can actually cause a generator to physically destroy itself .
Since these generators are very specialized pieces of equipment , you do n't just go to Home Depot and pick up another one.It is not enough to protect hospitals , etc .
A prolonged loss of power to the northern part of the US in the depths of winter would be devastating .
Even with backup power supplies , no one has plans to deal with a month of no electricity.This is n't about spending money on fear .
It is about naively ignoring a threat and hoping it will never happen .
We need to find a way to force utility companies to take these threats seriously and the only way to do that is to have financial penalties for lax security .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As we all should know by now, impenetrable security doesn't exist.
What we should probably have is tighter backup power for essential services and places like hospitals, where local redundancy could help in the face of a remote 'hacker' type attackPlaces where there is a lot of danger for people without electrical power don't need billions spent on the security of their power systems.
They need redundancy, generators in their buildings that could be used to keep people alive, batteries, and common sense.This isn't about impenetrable security.
This is about taking basic precautions about known attack vectors.
For example, many of these systems are not fail safe so an attacker can actually cause a generator to physically destroy itself.
Since these generators are very specialized pieces of equipment, you don't just go to Home Depot and pick up another one.It is not enough to protect hospitals, etc.
A prolonged loss of power to the northern part of the US in the depths of winter would be devastating.
Even with backup power supplies, no one has plans to deal with a month of no electricity.This isn't about spending money on fear.
It is about naively ignoring a threat and hoping it will never happen.
We need to find a way to force utility companies to take these threats seriously and the only way to do that is to have financial penalties for lax security.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027920</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257694080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So each facility evaluates its energy reliability needs. Some may come to the conclusion that they need higher reliability than what the local utility provides. But today, that's just based on gut feelings. Because there is no reliability or 'uptime' standard to which utilities must adhere. And as a result, there's no marginal price for additional MTBF or grid uptime. So people who think they need better reliability just go out and buy their own genset.</p><p>In some ways, this is analogous to servers. Everyone can go out and buy their own box and stick it in a co-location facility. Maybe install a redundant one at a remote facility. But as we (most of us) know, shared servers and virtualization are much more economical ways of allocating and managing server resources. But that works because we can put dollar figures on storage, bandwidth, and db queries.</p><p>To date, electrical utilities and their regulating commissions have established simple price structures that map all costs to dollars per killowatt-hour charges. There are no penalties or rebates for power outages based on either duration and/or frequency. And its not likely that utilities and regulators are going to embrace shifting part of the revenue structure from an energy charge to an availability or reliability charge. To do so would alter the consumer's perception of the cost of power and might result in an increase in consumption. For example, where I live (the Pacific Northwest of the USA), the 'fuel' or energy costs are actually quite low. Most of our utilities costs are fixed, for system operation and maintenence. But we are charged (primarily) a fee for energy used. If our bills reflected the true cost distribution, energy conservation would be a thing of the past.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So each facility evaluates its energy reliability needs .
Some may come to the conclusion that they need higher reliability than what the local utility provides .
But today , that 's just based on gut feelings .
Because there is no reliability or 'uptime ' standard to which utilities must adhere .
And as a result , there 's no marginal price for additional MTBF or grid uptime .
So people who think they need better reliability just go out and buy their own genset.In some ways , this is analogous to servers .
Everyone can go out and buy their own box and stick it in a co-location facility .
Maybe install a redundant one at a remote facility .
But as we ( most of us ) know , shared servers and virtualization are much more economical ways of allocating and managing server resources .
But that works because we can put dollar figures on storage , bandwidth , and db queries.To date , electrical utilities and their regulating commissions have established simple price structures that map all costs to dollars per killowatt-hour charges .
There are no penalties or rebates for power outages based on either duration and/or frequency .
And its not likely that utilities and regulators are going to embrace shifting part of the revenue structure from an energy charge to an availability or reliability charge .
To do so would alter the consumer 's perception of the cost of power and might result in an increase in consumption .
For example , where I live ( the Pacific Northwest of the USA ) , the 'fuel ' or energy costs are actually quite low .
Most of our utilities costs are fixed , for system operation and maintenence .
But we are charged ( primarily ) a fee for energy used .
If our bills reflected the true cost distribution , energy conservation would be a thing of the past .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So each facility evaluates its energy reliability needs.
Some may come to the conclusion that they need higher reliability than what the local utility provides.
But today, that's just based on gut feelings.
Because there is no reliability or 'uptime' standard to which utilities must adhere.
And as a result, there's no marginal price for additional MTBF or grid uptime.
So people who think they need better reliability just go out and buy their own genset.In some ways, this is analogous to servers.
Everyone can go out and buy their own box and stick it in a co-location facility.
Maybe install a redundant one at a remote facility.
But as we (most of us) know, shared servers and virtualization are much more economical ways of allocating and managing server resources.
But that works because we can put dollar figures on storage, bandwidth, and db queries.To date, electrical utilities and their regulating commissions have established simple price structures that map all costs to dollars per killowatt-hour charges.
There are no penalties or rebates for power outages based on either duration and/or frequency.
And its not likely that utilities and regulators are going to embrace shifting part of the revenue structure from an energy charge to an availability or reliability charge.
To do so would alter the consumer's perception of the cost of power and might result in an increase in consumption.
For example, where I live (the Pacific Northwest of the USA), the 'fuel' or energy costs are actually quite low.
Most of our utilities costs are fixed, for system operation and maintenence.
But we are charged (primarily) a fee for energy used.
If our bills reflected the true cost distribution, energy conservation would be a thing of the past.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30045350</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>garwain</author>
	<datestamp>1257867480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm set. I survived 3 weeks during the quebec ice storm of '98 with only minor annoyance. I have a disel generator, 500 gal of disel on hand, a freezer full of food, and about 50 cords of wood on hand... then again, this is just general supplies since I heat with wood, and have a farm, so I need the disel, anyway, and the generator is needed for anything more than a 2 hour power failure to ventelate the barn., If I run out of food, I can always butcher a cow or hog...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm set .
I survived 3 weeks during the quebec ice storm of '98 with only minor annoyance .
I have a disel generator , 500 gal of disel on hand , a freezer full of food , and about 50 cords of wood on hand... then again , this is just general supplies since I heat with wood , and have a farm , so I need the disel , anyway , and the generator is needed for anything more than a 2 hour power failure to ventelate the barn. , If I run out of food , I can always butcher a cow or hog.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm set.
I survived 3 weeks during the quebec ice storm of '98 with only minor annoyance.
I have a disel generator, 500 gal of disel on hand, a freezer full of food, and about 50 cords of wood on hand... then again, this is just general supplies since I heat with wood, and have a farm, so I need the disel, anyway, and the generator is needed for anything more than a 2 hour power failure to ventelate the barn., If I run out of food, I can always butcher a cow or hog...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028864</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029696</id>
	<title>INFRAGUARD</title>
	<author>dziman</author>
	<datestamp>1257798060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://www.infragard.net/" title="infragard.net" rel="nofollow">http://www.infragard.net/</a> [infragard.net]</p><p>"InfraGard is an information sharing and analysis effort serving the interests and combining the knowledge base of a wide range of members. At its most basic level, InfraGard is a partnership between the FBI and the private sector. InfraGard is an association of businesses, academic institutions, state and local law enforcement agencies, and other participants dedicated to sharing information and intelligence to prevent hostile acts against the United States. InfraGard Chapters are geographically linked with FBI Field Office territories. Each InfraGard Chapter has an FBI Special Agent Coordinator assigned to it, and the FBI Coordinator works closely with Supervisory Special Agent Program Managers in the Cyber Division at FBI Headquarters in Washington, D.C.</p><p>While under the direction of NIPC, the focus of InfraGard was cyber infrastructure protection. After September 11, 2001 NIPC expanded its efforts to include physical as well as cyber threats to critical infrastructures. InfraGard&rsquo;s mission expanded accordingly."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //www.infragard.net/ [ infragard.net ] " InfraGard is an information sharing and analysis effort serving the interests and combining the knowledge base of a wide range of members .
At its most basic level , InfraGard is a partnership between the FBI and the private sector .
InfraGard is an association of businesses , academic institutions , state and local law enforcement agencies , and other participants dedicated to sharing information and intelligence to prevent hostile acts against the United States .
InfraGard Chapters are geographically linked with FBI Field Office territories .
Each InfraGard Chapter has an FBI Special Agent Coordinator assigned to it , and the FBI Coordinator works closely with Supervisory Special Agent Program Managers in the Cyber Division at FBI Headquarters in Washington , D.C.While under the direction of NIPC , the focus of InfraGard was cyber infrastructure protection .
After September 11 , 2001 NIPC expanded its efforts to include physical as well as cyber threats to critical infrastructures .
InfraGard    s mission expanded accordingly .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://www.infragard.net/ [infragard.net]"InfraGard is an information sharing and analysis effort serving the interests and combining the knowledge base of a wide range of members.
At its most basic level, InfraGard is a partnership between the FBI and the private sector.
InfraGard is an association of businesses, academic institutions, state and local law enforcement agencies, and other participants dedicated to sharing information and intelligence to prevent hostile acts against the United States.
InfraGard Chapters are geographically linked with FBI Field Office territories.
Each InfraGard Chapter has an FBI Special Agent Coordinator assigned to it, and the FBI Coordinator works closely with Supervisory Special Agent Program Managers in the Cyber Division at FBI Headquarters in Washington, D.C.While under the direction of NIPC, the focus of InfraGard was cyber infrastructure protection.
After September 11, 2001 NIPC expanded its efforts to include physical as well as cyber threats to critical infrastructures.
InfraGard’s mission expanded accordingly.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028692</id>
	<title>Honestly, does this still work?</title>
	<author>MattGWU</author>
	<datestamp>1257700860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>McConnell adds that a similar attack to the one in Brazil is poised to take place on US soil and that it may take some horrific event to get the country focused on shoring up cyber security. 'If the power grid was taken off line in the middle of winter and it caused people to suffer and die, that would galvanize the nation. I hope we don't get there.'"</i></p><p>"That's an awfully nice power grid you've got there. Be a shame if something were to happen to it. Maybe you should look into some security. Before it's too late."</p><p>Another allegorical bogeyman to add to the list of things about to destroy everything we hold dear.  This whole 'scare us into action' thing is getting tedious.  Is it a sad look into our current state of affairs that people in charge don't seem to think we can be reasoned with on an intelligent level to the point where they have to take a page out of "ACT NOW!! Call within the next TEN minutes or you may miss out! Operators are STANDING BY!" book of marketing? Hey, guess what.....you NEVER miss out! They just want you to *CALL NOW* because they don't trust your lazy ass will remember by the end of Springer.  You ever have to listen to daytime TV for a day or two? I did when I was painting the hallway outside an elderly gent with failing hearing apartment and let me tell you, if you listen to the ads a certain way, those guys do NOT take a very high view of their target demographic.  But it must work, like so many things, or they wouldn't do it, and our government wouldn't sit up and take notice.  On the other cynical hand, if we're all such panicky idiots, shouldn't they space these things out more?  Getting a backlog of nonspecific stuff I'm supposed to be terrified of.</p><p>Finally, can a 'cyber-terror' attack be 'poised'?  "Hacker Leader, the attack is poised and ready." "Good work, all that's left is to press 'enter'.  When the time is right.  Which isn't for a while.  I don't know when, just not now." "Cool.  Halo?"  Then...how do they know? "Security Leader, there have been numerous probes and break ins around the periphery of the power grid system. What should we do?" "Nothing....yet...." "Cool. Madden?"</p><p>If we know an attack is 'poised' we know that something happened that presumably is being used to stage some larger event when the Hacker Leader and his Evil Hackers get bored of playing Halo.  In the meantime, put down Madden and upgrade that OpenSSL or reimage that box they were poking around on (and THEN upgrade that OpenSSL or whatever it was they used to get in).  The general public, of course, don't know this, so the scare tactic works, and for some reason, we as a society have grown rather accustomed to people talking down to us and trying to appeal to our better judgment through nonspecific threats of bad things that are about to happen.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>McConnell adds that a similar attack to the one in Brazil is poised to take place on US soil and that it may take some horrific event to get the country focused on shoring up cyber security .
'If the power grid was taken off line in the middle of winter and it caused people to suffer and die , that would galvanize the nation .
I hope we do n't get there .
' " " That 's an awfully nice power grid you 've got there .
Be a shame if something were to happen to it .
Maybe you should look into some security .
Before it 's too late .
" Another allegorical bogeyman to add to the list of things about to destroy everything we hold dear .
This whole 'scare us into action ' thing is getting tedious .
Is it a sad look into our current state of affairs that people in charge do n't seem to think we can be reasoned with on an intelligent level to the point where they have to take a page out of " ACT NOW ! !
Call within the next TEN minutes or you may miss out !
Operators are STANDING BY !
" book of marketing ?
Hey , guess what.....you NEVER miss out !
They just want you to * CALL NOW * because they do n't trust your lazy ass will remember by the end of Springer .
You ever have to listen to daytime TV for a day or two ?
I did when I was painting the hallway outside an elderly gent with failing hearing apartment and let me tell you , if you listen to the ads a certain way , those guys do NOT take a very high view of their target demographic .
But it must work , like so many things , or they would n't do it , and our government would n't sit up and take notice .
On the other cynical hand , if we 're all such panicky idiots , should n't they space these things out more ?
Getting a backlog of nonspecific stuff I 'm supposed to be terrified of.Finally , can a 'cyber-terror ' attack be 'poised ' ?
" Hacker Leader , the attack is poised and ready .
" " Good work , all that 's left is to press 'enter' .
When the time is right .
Which is n't for a while .
I do n't know when , just not now .
" " Cool .
Halo ? " Then...how do they know ?
" Security Leader , there have been numerous probes and break ins around the periphery of the power grid system .
What should we do ?
" " Nothing....yet.... " " Cool .
Madden ? " If we know an attack is 'poised ' we know that something happened that presumably is being used to stage some larger event when the Hacker Leader and his Evil Hackers get bored of playing Halo .
In the meantime , put down Madden and upgrade that OpenSSL or reimage that box they were poking around on ( and THEN upgrade that OpenSSL or whatever it was they used to get in ) .
The general public , of course , do n't know this , so the scare tactic works , and for some reason , we as a society have grown rather accustomed to people talking down to us and trying to appeal to our better judgment through nonspecific threats of bad things that are about to happen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>McConnell adds that a similar attack to the one in Brazil is poised to take place on US soil and that it may take some horrific event to get the country focused on shoring up cyber security.
'If the power grid was taken off line in the middle of winter and it caused people to suffer and die, that would galvanize the nation.
I hope we don't get there.
'""That's an awfully nice power grid you've got there.
Be a shame if something were to happen to it.
Maybe you should look into some security.
Before it's too late.
"Another allegorical bogeyman to add to the list of things about to destroy everything we hold dear.
This whole 'scare us into action' thing is getting tedious.
Is it a sad look into our current state of affairs that people in charge don't seem to think we can be reasoned with on an intelligent level to the point where they have to take a page out of "ACT NOW!!
Call within the next TEN minutes or you may miss out!
Operators are STANDING BY!
" book of marketing?
Hey, guess what.....you NEVER miss out!
They just want you to *CALL NOW* because they don't trust your lazy ass will remember by the end of Springer.
You ever have to listen to daytime TV for a day or two?
I did when I was painting the hallway outside an elderly gent with failing hearing apartment and let me tell you, if you listen to the ads a certain way, those guys do NOT take a very high view of their target demographic.
But it must work, like so many things, or they wouldn't do it, and our government wouldn't sit up and take notice.
On the other cynical hand, if we're all such panicky idiots, shouldn't they space these things out more?
Getting a backlog of nonspecific stuff I'm supposed to be terrified of.Finally, can a 'cyber-terror' attack be 'poised'?
"Hacker Leader, the attack is poised and ready.
" "Good work, all that's left is to press 'enter'.
When the time is right.
Which isn't for a while.
I don't know when, just not now.
" "Cool.
Halo?"  Then...how do they know?
"Security Leader, there have been numerous probes and break ins around the periphery of the power grid system.
What should we do?
" "Nothing....yet...." "Cool.
Madden?"If we know an attack is 'poised' we know that something happened that presumably is being used to stage some larger event when the Hacker Leader and his Evil Hackers get bored of playing Halo.
In the meantime, put down Madden and upgrade that OpenSSL or reimage that box they were poking around on (and THEN upgrade that OpenSSL or whatever it was they used to get in).
The general public, of course, don't know this, so the scare tactic works, and for some reason, we as a society have grown rather accustomed to people talking down to us and trying to appeal to our better judgment through nonspecific threats of bad things that are about to happen.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028418</id>
	<title>Re:America?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257698400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>WTF?  Why does some moron have to bring this up on here every time an American refers to the USA as "America"?</p><p>Someone please mod this troll down.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>WTF ?
Why does some moron have to bring this up on here every time an American refers to the USA as " America " ? Someone please mod this troll down .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>WTF?
Why does some moron have to bring this up on here every time an American refers to the USA as "America"?Someone please mod this troll down.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026930</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030766</id>
	<title>Government interference</title>
	<author>miketheanimal</author>
	<datestamp>1257767400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When oh when will people realise this is the sort of government interference that is simply not needed. This is exactly the sort of problem that the free market will resolve. If this sort of attack ever happens, people can simply vote with their dollars and buy their electricity from another supplier. Then the generating and distribution companies will actually have to do something rather than get away with claiming that they are doing something.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When oh when will people realise this is the sort of government interference that is simply not needed .
This is exactly the sort of problem that the free market will resolve .
If this sort of attack ever happens , people can simply vote with their dollars and buy their electricity from another supplier .
Then the generating and distribution companies will actually have to do something rather than get away with claiming that they are doing something .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When oh when will people realise this is the sort of government interference that is simply not needed.
This is exactly the sort of problem that the free market will resolve.
If this sort of attack ever happens, people can simply vote with their dollars and buy their electricity from another supplier.
Then the generating and distribution companies will actually have to do something rather than get away with claiming that they are doing something.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30031730</id>
	<title>"False flag" operation?</title>
	<author>Type44Q</author>
	<datestamp>1257777120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Numerous posters have already pointed out how easy it would be to make these systems more secure, so easy in fact that it's a non-issue.

My instincts tell me that this 'hacker attack' was a false-flag op; anyone know if the Brazilian government's been making the same efforts as ours to justify increasing their control of the Internet?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Numerous posters have already pointed out how easy it would be to make these systems more secure , so easy in fact that it 's a non-issue .
My instincts tell me that this 'hacker attack ' was a false-flag op ; anyone know if the Brazilian government 's been making the same efforts as ours to justify increasing their control of the Internet ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Numerous posters have already pointed out how easy it would be to make these systems more secure, so easy in fact that it's a non-issue.
My instincts tell me that this 'hacker attack' was a false-flag op; anyone know if the Brazilian government's been making the same efforts as ours to justify increasing their control of the Internet?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027954</id>
	<title>Why these systems are connected to the Internet</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257694440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I know all the comments are about to come flooding in that these systems should be air gapped from the Internet, but that isn't practical in today's environment.  These systems need to be indirectly connected to the corporate networks, because the data is valuable to the companies.  Much of this is due to deregulation.  Since deregulation electric utilities no longer operate as islands with their own generation, transmission and customers.  Since nobody liked monopolies in the energy industry, the pieces aren't necessarily owned by the same companies anymore.  Energy is also bought and sold in a market environment with prices changing all the time and the information is exchanged over the Internet.  If you want to see the current Megawatt Hour (MWh) prices in the midwest check out <a href="http://www.midwestiso.org/page/LMP+Contour+Map+(EOR)" title="midwestiso.org">http://www.midwestiso.org/page/LMP+Contour+Map+(EOR)</a> [midwestiso.org].  Needless to say air gapping isn't practical in today's environment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I know all the comments are about to come flooding in that these systems should be air gapped from the Internet , but that is n't practical in today 's environment .
These systems need to be indirectly connected to the corporate networks , because the data is valuable to the companies .
Much of this is due to deregulation .
Since deregulation electric utilities no longer operate as islands with their own generation , transmission and customers .
Since nobody liked monopolies in the energy industry , the pieces are n't necessarily owned by the same companies anymore .
Energy is also bought and sold in a market environment with prices changing all the time and the information is exchanged over the Internet .
If you want to see the current Megawatt Hour ( MWh ) prices in the midwest check out http : //www.midwestiso.org/page/LMP + Contour + Map + ( EOR ) [ midwestiso.org ] .
Needless to say air gapping is n't practical in today 's environment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know all the comments are about to come flooding in that these systems should be air gapped from the Internet, but that isn't practical in today's environment.
These systems need to be indirectly connected to the corporate networks, because the data is valuable to the companies.
Much of this is due to deregulation.
Since deregulation electric utilities no longer operate as islands with their own generation, transmission and customers.
Since nobody liked monopolies in the energy industry, the pieces aren't necessarily owned by the same companies anymore.
Energy is also bought and sold in a market environment with prices changing all the time and the information is exchanged over the Internet.
If you want to see the current Megawatt Hour (MWh) prices in the midwest check out http://www.midwestiso.org/page/LMP+Contour+Map+(EOR) [midwestiso.org].
Needless to say air gapping isn't practical in today's environment.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028404</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>murdocj</author>
	<datestamp>1257698220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And yet, somehow, I'd still rather live in the United States... odd.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And yet , somehow , I 'd still rather live in the United States... odd .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And yet, somehow, I'd still rather live in the United States... odd.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027640</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30035388</id>
	<title>Re:Internets...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257792540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I don't see why they can't just buy a phone line for each power station and link to central stations (also with NON-Internet-facing systems) like that.</p></div><p>You can and they do.</p><p>A short haul line is often called a dryloop, or when ordering it is best to be described as an "alarm circuit" (trust me).  You have 2 wires (hopefully (should be) twisted pair), between points A and B, maybe a mile or so.  Hook Mr. Short Haul modem to it and go.  Of course, the telco will not know of any failures on this line (not hooked to CO eq, it's just a bridged connection), so any issues you have with it (including the bailing wire used to string the line) are very hard to get serviced (see: Act of God).</p><p>Two of the more common long distance varieties are called "leased line" and "frame relay". (anyone still use ISDN?).  The benefits are very secure data path (especially with leased line), and guaranteed bandwidth availability (leased is 100\%, frame is usually 50\% full speed of connection).  The problems are they can cost more than a T1 connection to the internet (especially in rural areas), and they are a single point of failure line (sometimes frame relay will survive a line cut, but a leased circuit is literally a dedicated line between points A and B).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't see why they ca n't just buy a phone line for each power station and link to central stations ( also with NON-Internet-facing systems ) like that.You can and they do.A short haul line is often called a dryloop , or when ordering it is best to be described as an " alarm circuit " ( trust me ) .
You have 2 wires ( hopefully ( should be ) twisted pair ) , between points A and B , maybe a mile or so .
Hook Mr. Short Haul modem to it and go .
Of course , the telco will not know of any failures on this line ( not hooked to CO eq , it 's just a bridged connection ) , so any issues you have with it ( including the bailing wire used to string the line ) are very hard to get serviced ( see : Act of God ) .Two of the more common long distance varieties are called " leased line " and " frame relay " .
( anyone still use ISDN ? ) .
The benefits are very secure data path ( especially with leased line ) , and guaranteed bandwidth availability ( leased is 100 \ % , frame is usually 50 \ % full speed of connection ) .
The problems are they can cost more than a T1 connection to the internet ( especially in rural areas ) , and they are a single point of failure line ( sometimes frame relay will survive a line cut , but a leased circuit is literally a dedicated line between points A and B ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't see why they can't just buy a phone line for each power station and link to central stations (also with NON-Internet-facing systems) like that.You can and they do.A short haul line is often called a dryloop, or when ordering it is best to be described as an "alarm circuit" (trust me).
You have 2 wires (hopefully (should be) twisted pair), between points A and B, maybe a mile or so.
Hook Mr. Short Haul modem to it and go.
Of course, the telco will not know of any failures on this line (not hooked to CO eq, it's just a bridged connection), so any issues you have with it (including the bailing wire used to string the line) are very hard to get serviced (see: Act of God).Two of the more common long distance varieties are called "leased line" and "frame relay".
(anyone still use ISDN?).
The benefits are very secure data path (especially with leased line), and guaranteed bandwidth availability (leased is 100\%, frame is usually 50\% full speed of connection).
The problems are they can cost more than a T1 connection to the internet (especially in rural areas), and they are a single point of failure line (sometimes frame relay will survive a line cut, but a leased circuit is literally a dedicated line between points A and B).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028246</id>
	<title>NERC CIP</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257696960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Electric utilities are already being required to beef up security.  The North American Electric Reliability Corporation (NERC) has a fairly extensive set of mandatory compliance standards for "Critical Infrastructure Protection (CIP)."  I don't know why this was omitted from the story.  If you don't comply with the standards, you're subject to some heavy fines.

Go search on 'nerc cip' and see how there's a whole cottage industry of consultants gearing up for this.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Electric utilities are already being required to beef up security .
The North American Electric Reliability Corporation ( NERC ) has a fairly extensive set of mandatory compliance standards for " Critical Infrastructure Protection ( CIP ) .
" I do n't know why this was omitted from the story .
If you do n't comply with the standards , you 're subject to some heavy fines .
Go search on 'nerc cip ' and see how there 's a whole cottage industry of consultants gearing up for this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Electric utilities are already being required to beef up security.
The North American Electric Reliability Corporation (NERC) has a fairly extensive set of mandatory compliance standards for "Critical Infrastructure Protection (CIP).
"  I don't know why this was omitted from the story.
If you don't comply with the standards, you're subject to some heavy fines.
Go search on 'nerc cip' and see how there's a whole cottage industry of consultants gearing up for this.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30033106</id>
	<title>Fashion from here,nike jordan shoes,coach,gucci,</title>
	<author>huangzhixian1204</author>
	<datestamp>1257783420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In order to meet the Thanksgiving holiday, this site hereby release Thanksgiving gift, that is, gift, our web site is <a href="http://www.coolforsale.com/" title="coolforsale.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.coolforsale.com/</a> [coolforsale.com] [coolforsale.com] [coolforsale.com] Nike Air Jordan(1-25)/Jordan Six Ring/Jordan Fusion/Nike Shox/Air Max/AF1/Dunk shoes, coach,gucci,lv,dg,ed hardy handbags, Polo/Ed Hardy/Lacoste/Ca/A&amp;F<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,T-shirt welcome new and old customers come to order.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In order to meet the Thanksgiving holiday , this site hereby release Thanksgiving gift , that is , gift , our web site is http : //www.coolforsale.com/ [ coolforsale.com ] [ coolforsale.com ] [ coolforsale.com ] Nike Air Jordan ( 1-25 ) /Jordan Six Ring/Jordan Fusion/Nike Shox/Air Max/AF1/Dunk shoes , coach,gucci,lv,dg,ed hardy handbags , Polo/Ed Hardy/Lacoste/Ca/A&amp;F ,T-shirt welcome new and old customers come to order .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In order to meet the Thanksgiving holiday, this site hereby release Thanksgiving gift, that is, gift, our web site is http://www.coolforsale.com/ [coolforsale.com] [coolforsale.com] [coolforsale.com] Nike Air Jordan(1-25)/Jordan Six Ring/Jordan Fusion/Nike Shox/Air Max/AF1/Dunk shoes, coach,gucci,lv,dg,ed hardy handbags, Polo/Ed Hardy/Lacoste/Ca/A&amp;F ,T-shirt welcome new and old customers come to order.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030032</id>
	<title>Re:If the power grid is so vulnerable, why hasn't.</title>
	<author>jeffstar</author>
	<datestamp>1257758760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>it's really quite impressive that the grid stays up as much as it does. there is a trade off between cost and uptime, it is probably an exponential relationship and we're already at 99.9999\% uptime, so how much more is that extra<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.0001\% worth?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>it 's really quite impressive that the grid stays up as much as it does .
there is a trade off between cost and uptime , it is probably an exponential relationship and we 're already at 99.9999 \ % uptime , so how much more is that extra .0001 \ % worth ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>it's really quite impressive that the grid stays up as much as it does.
there is a trade off between cost and uptime, it is probably an exponential relationship and we're already at 99.9999\% uptime, so how much more is that extra .0001\% worth?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027900</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028256</id>
	<title>Interesting choice of words</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257696960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>'If the power grid was taken off line in the middle of winter and it caused people to suffer and die, that would galvanize the nation.'</p><p>Yes, if the hackers also managed to cover the nation in a bath of hot zinc..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>'If the power grid was taken off line in the middle of winter and it caused people to suffer and die , that would galvanize the nation .
'Yes , if the hackers also managed to cover the nation in a bath of hot zinc. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>'If the power grid was taken off line in the middle of winter and it caused people to suffer and die, that would galvanize the nation.
'Yes, if the hackers also managed to cover the nation in a bath of hot zinc..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028034</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1257695220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Impenetrable security may not exist, but good security and crappy security do exist. We'd rather have good than crappy, but the power companies would rather spend on executive bonuses than on good security.</p><p>We do need improved security on SCADA (like making it REALLY separate from the internet and business LANs), but that's not billions in cost. As you point out, backup power is good.</p><p>More resiliency in the grid is a big one. If the grid has adequate spare capacity it can tolerate a few sudden losses and can be less tightly coupled in the first place. Given enough added capacity, SCADA can go back to just local control and human operators will again be fast enough to intermediate at the regional level.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Impenetrable security may not exist , but good security and crappy security do exist .
We 'd rather have good than crappy , but the power companies would rather spend on executive bonuses than on good security.We do need improved security on SCADA ( like making it REALLY separate from the internet and business LANs ) , but that 's not billions in cost .
As you point out , backup power is good.More resiliency in the grid is a big one .
If the grid has adequate spare capacity it can tolerate a few sudden losses and can be less tightly coupled in the first place .
Given enough added capacity , SCADA can go back to just local control and human operators will again be fast enough to intermediate at the regional level .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Impenetrable security may not exist, but good security and crappy security do exist.
We'd rather have good than crappy, but the power companies would rather spend on executive bonuses than on good security.We do need improved security on SCADA (like making it REALLY separate from the internet and business LANs), but that's not billions in cost.
As you point out, backup power is good.More resiliency in the grid is a big one.
If the grid has adequate spare capacity it can tolerate a few sudden losses and can be less tightly coupled in the first place.
Given enough added capacity, SCADA can go back to just local control and human operators will again be fast enough to intermediate at the regional level.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026930</id>
	<title>America?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257686820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Mike McConnell says that the 'United States is not prepared for such an attack' and believes it could happen in America.</i></p><p>This is news to me, so Brazil is NOT in America?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Mike McConnell says that the 'United States is not prepared for such an attack ' and believes it could happen in America.This is news to me , so Brazil is NOT in America ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mike McConnell says that the 'United States is not prepared for such an attack' and believes it could happen in America.This is news to me, so Brazil is NOT in America?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027512</id>
	<title>Re:Hit'em in their wallets</title>
	<author>Muckluck</author>
	<datestamp>1257690780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When you say "Hit 'em in their wallets"  You are really saying "Hit ME in MY wallet".  The power industry is regulated.  Profit is also regulated.  Power companies make about 12\% above what it costs to produce and distribute power in most markets (depends on the Public Service Commission in your area as to the actual percentage).  The NERC (North American Electric Reliability Company) Critical Infrastructure Protection standards were adopted by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to partially deal with the problem.  Some companies have taken the INTENT of the standards to heart and have implemented them with true security in mind.  Others have done everything they can to circumvent the standards.  NERC is starting their initial audits right now to see how well individual companies have done.  Stay tuned to www.nerc.com to see how your power company fared in the audit...</htmltext>
<tokenext>When you say " Hit 'em in their wallets " You are really saying " Hit ME in MY wallet " .
The power industry is regulated .
Profit is also regulated .
Power companies make about 12 \ % above what it costs to produce and distribute power in most markets ( depends on the Public Service Commission in your area as to the actual percentage ) .
The NERC ( North American Electric Reliability Company ) Critical Infrastructure Protection standards were adopted by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to partially deal with the problem .
Some companies have taken the INTENT of the standards to heart and have implemented them with true security in mind .
Others have done everything they can to circumvent the standards .
NERC is starting their initial audits right now to see how well individual companies have done .
Stay tuned to www.nerc.com to see how your power company fared in the audit.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When you say "Hit 'em in their wallets"  You are really saying "Hit ME in MY wallet".
The power industry is regulated.
Profit is also regulated.
Power companies make about 12\% above what it costs to produce and distribute power in most markets (depends on the Public Service Commission in your area as to the actual percentage).
The NERC (North American Electric Reliability Company) Critical Infrastructure Protection standards were adopted by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to partially deal with the problem.
Some companies have taken the INTENT of the standards to heart and have implemented them with true security in mind.
Others have done everything they can to circumvent the standards.
NERC is starting their initial audits right now to see how well individual companies have done.
Stay tuned to www.nerc.com to see how your power company fared in the audit...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028702</id>
	<title>Re:So...</title>
	<author>4D6963</author>
	<datestamp>1257701040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Funny, I went to school to become a network administrator, and there I was taught that if you want absolute security between two networks you need to make sure they're physically disconnect.

</p><p>That's very reassuring to see that no one can be arsed to worry about that when it comes to power plants, which security are an issue of national security. Surely there must be some security regulations there?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Funny , I went to school to become a network administrator , and there I was taught that if you want absolute security between two networks you need to make sure they 're physically disconnect .
That 's very reassuring to see that no one can be arsed to worry about that when it comes to power plants , which security are an issue of national security .
Surely there must be some security regulations there ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Funny, I went to school to become a network administrator, and there I was taught that if you want absolute security between two networks you need to make sure they're physically disconnect.
That's very reassuring to see that no one can be arsed to worry about that when it comes to power plants, which security are an issue of national security.
Surely there must be some security regulations there?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027542</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028534</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>evilviper</author>
	<datestamp>1257699360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The easiest fix at a utility scale is to increase the amount of spinning reserve so that causing a cascading failure requires control of multiple generating facilities.</p></div></blockquote><p>No.  The only reason we have "cascading failures" in the grid is because there isn't enough electrical isolation.  It's just a giant bus that, when there's a problem, generating plants have 2 choices: shut everything down / just sit back and hope and pray your generators won't be destroyed.</p><p>If each major circuit / sub-station had just a bit of smarts, they could notice the power drop and shut themselves down, instead of trying to disparately to continue getting all the power needed.  It's the difference between a few areas blacked-out momentarily, and a brown-out across the whole system, which in-turn risks causing equipment damage, necessitating a whole-system shutdown.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The easiest fix at a utility scale is to increase the amount of spinning reserve so that causing a cascading failure requires control of multiple generating facilities.No .
The only reason we have " cascading failures " in the grid is because there is n't enough electrical isolation .
It 's just a giant bus that , when there 's a problem , generating plants have 2 choices : shut everything down / just sit back and hope and pray your generators wo n't be destroyed.If each major circuit / sub-station had just a bit of smarts , they could notice the power drop and shut themselves down , instead of trying to disparately to continue getting all the power needed .
It 's the difference between a few areas blacked-out momentarily , and a brown-out across the whole system , which in-turn risks causing equipment damage , necessitating a whole-system shutdown .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The easiest fix at a utility scale is to increase the amount of spinning reserve so that causing a cascading failure requires control of multiple generating facilities.No.
The only reason we have "cascading failures" in the grid is because there isn't enough electrical isolation.
It's just a giant bus that, when there's a problem, generating plants have 2 choices: shut everything down / just sit back and hope and pray your generators won't be destroyed.If each major circuit / sub-station had just a bit of smarts, they could notice the power drop and shut themselves down, instead of trying to disparately to continue getting all the power needed.
It's the difference between a few areas blacked-out momentarily, and a brown-out across the whole system, which in-turn risks causing equipment damage, necessitating a whole-system shutdown.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027868</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030470</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>vtcodger</author>
	<datestamp>1257763920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This may sound like an incredibly dumb idea, but if you don't hook stuff to a network, it is remarkably difficult to attack it from the network.  Is it maybe, just barely, possible that there are portions of the national infrastructure that should NOT be connected to the internet?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This may sound like an incredibly dumb idea , but if you do n't hook stuff to a network , it is remarkably difficult to attack it from the network .
Is it maybe , just barely , possible that there are portions of the national infrastructure that should NOT be connected to the internet ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This may sound like an incredibly dumb idea, but if you don't hook stuff to a network, it is remarkably difficult to attack it from the network.
Is it maybe, just barely, possible that there are portions of the national infrastructure that should NOT be connected to the internet?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30047780</id>
	<title>Re:If the power grid is so vulnerable, why hasn't.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257877020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Yet it hasn't happened here or Western Europe or most modern Asian countries.  Why?</p></div><p>For the same reason there have been no suicide bombings in the US.</p><p>Scary, huh?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yet it has n't happened here or Western Europe or most modern Asian countries .
Why ? For the same reason there have been no suicide bombings in the US.Scary , huh ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yet it hasn't happened here or Western Europe or most modern Asian countries.
Why?For the same reason there have been no suicide bombings in the US.Scary, huh?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027900</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027522</id>
	<title>Re:Security</title>
	<author>cptdondo</author>
	<datestamp>1257690840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most of the systems are controlled by PLCs.  Most PLCs to this day have no access control whatsoever.  Some of the attempts at "security" I've heard for PLCs are salesguy technobabble.  (The password is stored on the PC being used to access the PLC; the PLC retrieves the password FROM THE PC in order to verify the validity of the user.  No shit, this is what a major vendor told me.)</p><p>A kid with a laptop with the right software, a modem, and knowledge of a few phone numbers could take out significant infrastructure.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most of the systems are controlled by PLCs .
Most PLCs to this day have no access control whatsoever .
Some of the attempts at " security " I 've heard for PLCs are salesguy technobabble .
( The password is stored on the PC being used to access the PLC ; the PLC retrieves the password FROM THE PC in order to verify the validity of the user .
No shit , this is what a major vendor told me .
) A kid with a laptop with the right software , a modem , and knowledge of a few phone numbers could take out significant infrastructure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most of the systems are controlled by PLCs.
Most PLCs to this day have no access control whatsoever.
Some of the attempts at "security" I've heard for PLCs are salesguy technobabble.
(The password is stored on the PC being used to access the PLC; the PLC retrieves the password FROM THE PC in order to verify the validity of the user.
No shit, this is what a major vendor told me.
)A kid with a laptop with the right software, a modem, and knowledge of a few phone numbers could take out significant infrastructure.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027028</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30033676</id>
	<title>Re:If the power grid is so vulnerable, why hasn't.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257785760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; Forcing the grid offline and in a way that kept it down/brain damaged for any length of time over 48-72 hours, especially if it was widespread, would have such a cascading effect and probably spawn anarchy. At a minimum billions lost, thousands killed, possibly riots or widespread civil disorder. Katrina times 9/11. So the effect would be substantial and easily deniable, making it the kind of thing China or Russia or any other competitive major power might want to do just to fuck with the Americans and keep them off balance.</p><p>Not at all. We had a roughly weeklong poweroutage in northeastern NA. You know what happened? I listened to some radio, had something nice to drink, and enjoyed the first really nice night sky from my balcony. Sure, things were a bit of a mess in terms of getting gas, access to bank accounts, the lack of water, etc. But overall, people had positive things to say about it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; Forcing the grid offline and in a way that kept it down/brain damaged for any length of time over 48-72 hours , especially if it was widespread , would have such a cascading effect and probably spawn anarchy .
At a minimum billions lost , thousands killed , possibly riots or widespread civil disorder .
Katrina times 9/11 .
So the effect would be substantial and easily deniable , making it the kind of thing China or Russia or any other competitive major power might want to do just to fuck with the Americans and keep them off balance.Not at all .
We had a roughly weeklong poweroutage in northeastern NA .
You know what happened ?
I listened to some radio , had something nice to drink , and enjoyed the first really nice night sky from my balcony .
Sure , things were a bit of a mess in terms of getting gas , access to bank accounts , the lack of water , etc .
But overall , people had positive things to say about it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; Forcing the grid offline and in a way that kept it down/brain damaged for any length of time over 48-72 hours, especially if it was widespread, would have such a cascading effect and probably spawn anarchy.
At a minimum billions lost, thousands killed, possibly riots or widespread civil disorder.
Katrina times 9/11.
So the effect would be substantial and easily deniable, making it the kind of thing China or Russia or any other competitive major power might want to do just to fuck with the Americans and keep them off balance.Not at all.
We had a roughly weeklong poweroutage in northeastern NA.
You know what happened?
I listened to some radio, had something nice to drink, and enjoyed the first really nice night sky from my balcony.
Sure, things were a bit of a mess in terms of getting gas, access to bank accounts, the lack of water, etc.
But overall, people had positive things to say about it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027900</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026998</id>
	<title>I submitted this last week</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257687120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I submitted it in response to a number of people blowing off the potential hacker attack a few weeks ago. They have already happened and it will get worse. It's the cheapest and easiest way to do damage and get away with it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I submitted it in response to a number of people blowing off the potential hacker attack a few weeks ago .
They have already happened and it will get worse .
It 's the cheapest and easiest way to do damage and get away with it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I submitted it in response to a number of people blowing off the potential hacker attack a few weeks ago.
They have already happened and it will get worse.
It's the cheapest and easiest way to do damage and get away with it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029262</id>
	<title>Re:So...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257706920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think you'll find every major process or control system is somehow connected to the internet, but for quite different reasons than you think.</p><p>So you have a closed loop control system running nothing but a few back end servers.<br>These are connected to computers running operator screens over the network.<br>In addition the back end servers are also connected to some asset management server running software used for maintenance.<br>The engineers will likely want online and live data from this asset management server too.<br>The engineers will definitely want some access to the internet, or even a global company wide intranet in our case.<br>Process control groups will likely want statistical data, and access to the internet, however I have seen various implimentations of how such a thing could occur (directly from the control system or through another server that logs control system requests).</p><p>In between each of these interconnected networks are various layers of firewalls, and authentrication, however ultimately they are all tied together. If security is lax enough it should be possible to compromise control via the internet.</p><p>Disclaimer: I work for a large multinational oil company.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think you 'll find every major process or control system is somehow connected to the internet , but for quite different reasons than you think.So you have a closed loop control system running nothing but a few back end servers.These are connected to computers running operator screens over the network.In addition the back end servers are also connected to some asset management server running software used for maintenance.The engineers will likely want online and live data from this asset management server too.The engineers will definitely want some access to the internet , or even a global company wide intranet in our case.Process control groups will likely want statistical data , and access to the internet , however I have seen various implimentations of how such a thing could occur ( directly from the control system or through another server that logs control system requests ) .In between each of these interconnected networks are various layers of firewalls , and authentrication , however ultimately they are all tied together .
If security is lax enough it should be possible to compromise control via the internet.Disclaimer : I work for a large multinational oil company .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think you'll find every major process or control system is somehow connected to the internet, but for quite different reasons than you think.So you have a closed loop control system running nothing but a few back end servers.These are connected to computers running operator screens over the network.In addition the back end servers are also connected to some asset management server running software used for maintenance.The engineers will likely want online and live data from this asset management server too.The engineers will definitely want some access to the internet, or even a global company wide intranet in our case.Process control groups will likely want statistical data, and access to the internet, however I have seen various implimentations of how such a thing could occur (directly from the control system or through another server that logs control system requests).In between each of these interconnected networks are various layers of firewalls, and authentrication, however ultimately they are all tied together.
If security is lax enough it should be possible to compromise control via the internet.Disclaimer: I work for a large multinational oil company.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026944</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027482</id>
	<title>Re:THE TRUTH!! DO NOT MOD DOWN!! +5 INFORMATIVE</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257690600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't know WTF you were getting at but I laughed my ass off<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know WTF you were getting at but I laughed my ass off : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know WTF you were getting at but I laughed my ass off :)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026900</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029080</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>dgatwood</author>
	<datestamp>1257704100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Look at xscreensaver 10 years with 0 security holes, it allong with a host of other programs, show that you can make a system impenetrable!</p></div></blockquote><p>That's a joke, right?  An app that takes no input from anywhere (except trivial password input) has no security holes?  Really?  That's like a building with no windows and only one door just large enough for a cat being safe from burglars.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Look at xscreensaver 10 years with 0 security holes , it allong with a host of other programs , show that you can make a system impenetrable ! That 's a joke , right ?
An app that takes no input from anywhere ( except trivial password input ) has no security holes ?
Really ? That 's like a building with no windows and only one door just large enough for a cat being safe from burglars .
: - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look at xscreensaver 10 years with 0 security holes, it allong with a host of other programs, show that you can make a system impenetrable!That's a joke, right?
An app that takes no input from anywhere (except trivial password input) has no security holes?
Really?  That's like a building with no windows and only one door just large enough for a cat being safe from burglars.
:-)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027796</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028130</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Nefarious Wheel</author>
	<datestamp>1257696000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I have trouble believing that the "smart grid" really solves this, although you can do some things with networked protection strategies and more selective load shed.</p></div><p>The true payback - the ROI for the Smart Grid is expected to be in better profiling of usage so that it can be planned for, so that the generators can be ramped up at the right time and spun down at the right time.  This has everything to do with the cost of fuel.</p><p>Considering that to handle peak loads, capacity is often run at +100\% of actual demand - a number I got directly from a C-level distribution network exec - any corners shaved off that power usage profile amount to a significant saving, potentially $billions.  The point is to find out exactly when power usage happens, and until the grid smartens up a bit they're stuck with guesswork and an increasingly expensive fudge-factor.  </p><p>This is way too many dollars to spend on guesswork, so they want better instrumentation and better information systems and better backhaul networks - the biggest investment in decades for most of these operators - so they can make better use of Fossils of Escalating Cost.</p><p>So although the "smart grid" may not completely solve the problem, it's likely to go a long way to minimising outages and saving huge bucks on fuel.  Infrastructure money well spent, I hold.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have trouble believing that the " smart grid " really solves this , although you can do some things with networked protection strategies and more selective load shed.The true payback - the ROI for the Smart Grid is expected to be in better profiling of usage so that it can be planned for , so that the generators can be ramped up at the right time and spun down at the right time .
This has everything to do with the cost of fuel.Considering that to handle peak loads , capacity is often run at + 100 \ % of actual demand - a number I got directly from a C-level distribution network exec - any corners shaved off that power usage profile amount to a significant saving , potentially $ billions .
The point is to find out exactly when power usage happens , and until the grid smartens up a bit they 're stuck with guesswork and an increasingly expensive fudge-factor .
This is way too many dollars to spend on guesswork , so they want better instrumentation and better information systems and better backhaul networks - the biggest investment in decades for most of these operators - so they can make better use of Fossils of Escalating Cost.So although the " smart grid " may not completely solve the problem , it 's likely to go a long way to minimising outages and saving huge bucks on fuel .
Infrastructure money well spent , I hold .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have trouble believing that the "smart grid" really solves this, although you can do some things with networked protection strategies and more selective load shed.The true payback - the ROI for the Smart Grid is expected to be in better profiling of usage so that it can be planned for, so that the generators can be ramped up at the right time and spun down at the right time.
This has everything to do with the cost of fuel.Considering that to handle peak loads, capacity is often run at +100\% of actual demand - a number I got directly from a C-level distribution network exec - any corners shaved off that power usage profile amount to a significant saving, potentially $billions.
The point is to find out exactly when power usage happens, and until the grid smartens up a bit they're stuck with guesswork and an increasingly expensive fudge-factor.
This is way too many dollars to spend on guesswork, so they want better instrumentation and better information systems and better backhaul networks - the biggest investment in decades for most of these operators - so they can make better use of Fossils of Escalating Cost.So although the "smart grid" may not completely solve the problem, it's likely to go a long way to minimising outages and saving huge bucks on fuel.
Infrastructure money well spent, I hold.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027868</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029286</id>
	<title>Re:So how exactly does this work?</title>
	<author>Jeian</author>
	<datestamp>1257707340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You don't have to be as direct as telling the system to shut down. If you can confuse it enough, it might be programmed to shut itself down as a precautionary measure.</p><p>(I have absolutely no knowledge of how these systems work, it's just a hypothetical.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do n't have to be as direct as telling the system to shut down .
If you can confuse it enough , it might be programmed to shut itself down as a precautionary measure .
( I have absolutely no knowledge of how these systems work , it 's just a hypothetical .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You don't have to be as direct as telling the system to shut down.
If you can confuse it enough, it might be programmed to shut itself down as a precautionary measure.
(I have absolutely no knowledge of how these systems work, it's just a hypothetical.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026966</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30043172</id>
	<title>NOT</title>
	<author>klui</author>
	<datestamp>1257886740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/brazil\_blackout/" title="wired.com">http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/brazil\_blackout/</a> [wired.com]</p><p>Cause was bad insulators according to Brazilian government regulators.</p><p>But I'm sure US government officials will say it is possible and they'll need an internet "patriot" act real soon or else the sky will fall.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/brazil \ _blackout/ [ wired.com ] Cause was bad insulators according to Brazilian government regulators.But I 'm sure US government officials will say it is possible and they 'll need an internet " patriot " act real soon or else the sky will fall .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/brazil\_blackout/ [wired.com]Cause was bad insulators according to Brazilian government regulators.But I'm sure US government officials will say it is possible and they'll need an internet "patriot" act real soon or else the sky will fall.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30033446</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1257784740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, what we should do is force more people to have solar powered alternatives to energy, also providing with extra unused wattage, so that in a failure situation, segregating the power grids to their local areas which in turn had plenty of its own producing juices to maintain a working level, could help reduce such possibilities, but again, the government isn't taking this seriously enough to push incentives across the board to all home owners to adopt the new technology.</p><p>Imagine that we had such worries about what time we used our washers or dryers or even air conditioners.<br>Imagine also how much less demanding on the grid it would be should such a situation arise, they could cut here or there to limit the damages, send crews to fix the problem or restart their servers whatever the cause, and then rejoin the main grid.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , what we should do is force more people to have solar powered alternatives to energy , also providing with extra unused wattage , so that in a failure situation , segregating the power grids to their local areas which in turn had plenty of its own producing juices to maintain a working level , could help reduce such possibilities , but again , the government is n't taking this seriously enough to push incentives across the board to all home owners to adopt the new technology.Imagine that we had such worries about what time we used our washers or dryers or even air conditioners.Imagine also how much less demanding on the grid it would be should such a situation arise , they could cut here or there to limit the damages , send crews to fix the problem or restart their servers whatever the cause , and then rejoin the main grid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, what we should do is force more people to have solar powered alternatives to energy, also providing with extra unused wattage, so that in a failure situation, segregating the power grids to their local areas which in turn had plenty of its own producing juices to maintain a working level, could help reduce such possibilities, but again, the government isn't taking this seriously enough to push incentives across the board to all home owners to adopt the new technology.Imagine that we had such worries about what time we used our washers or dryers or even air conditioners.Imagine also how much less demanding on the grid it would be should such a situation arise, they could cut here or there to limit the damages, send crews to fix the problem or restart their servers whatever the cause, and then rejoin the main grid.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028336</id>
	<title>As a Rhode Islander, I apologize</title>
	<author>Gothmolly</author>
	<datestamp>1257697620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For electing such a statist douchebag.   Our little armpit of New England has only 2 industries - welfare and prostitution, and our elected Gestapo is always looking for more.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For electing such a statist douchebag .
Our little armpit of New England has only 2 industries - welfare and prostitution , and our elected Gestapo is always looking for more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For electing such a statist douchebag.
Our little armpit of New England has only 2 industries - welfare and prostitution, and our elected Gestapo is always looking for more.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30032636</id>
	<title>Re:If the power grid is so vulnerable, why hasn't.</title>
	<author>kannibul</author>
	<datestamp>1257781620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There was an ice storm here in Oklahoma a few years ago. Power gone for 3 days for a few people, up to 3 weeks for some unlucky ones. Most averaged around a week without power, in the middle of winter. From what was reported, there wasn't any increase in crime. Everyone was screwed, criminals too. After the batteries ran out for cell phones (towers too), there was little to no communication. The worst things that happened were people stealing generators left unattended.

There was a lot of tension "in the air" at places that did have power, but, in the end, it was calm, quiet, and pretty damn boring.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There was an ice storm here in Oklahoma a few years ago .
Power gone for 3 days for a few people , up to 3 weeks for some unlucky ones .
Most averaged around a week without power , in the middle of winter .
From what was reported , there was n't any increase in crime .
Everyone was screwed , criminals too .
After the batteries ran out for cell phones ( towers too ) , there was little to no communication .
The worst things that happened were people stealing generators left unattended .
There was a lot of tension " in the air " at places that did have power , but , in the end , it was calm , quiet , and pretty damn boring .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There was an ice storm here in Oklahoma a few years ago.
Power gone for 3 days for a few people, up to 3 weeks for some unlucky ones.
Most averaged around a week without power, in the middle of winter.
From what was reported, there wasn't any increase in crime.
Everyone was screwed, criminals too.
After the batteries ran out for cell phones (towers too), there was little to no communication.
The worst things that happened were people stealing generators left unattended.
There was a lot of tension "in the air" at places that did have power, but, in the end, it was calm, quiet, and pretty damn boring.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027900</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029724</id>
	<title>Re:Hit'em in their wallets</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257798360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or just hire crackers to take out their system (in Spring or Fall, so as not to kill people. Then they'll suddenly see the value of security, and spend money on it, and you didn't need to create a bureaucracy branch to handle it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or just hire crackers to take out their system ( in Spring or Fall , so as not to kill people .
Then they 'll suddenly see the value of security , and spend money on it , and you did n't need to create a bureaucracy branch to handle it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or just hire crackers to take out their system (in Spring or Fall, so as not to kill people.
Then they'll suddenly see the value of security, and spend money on it, and you didn't need to create a bureaucracy branch to handle it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30032054</id>
	<title>Multi-level security desktops</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257779160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>However, the HR system ends up getting connected to the Internet so that people can fill out their time-cards, etc. Unfortunately, the HR systems are on the same intranet as the control system. So, once an attacker has subverted the HR system, he/she has access to the control system. The only good solution is to run multiple intranets, but this seems rarely to be the case.</p></div><p>Multilevel security (MLS) is here today and works in many situations:</p><p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilevel\_security<br>http://blogs.sun.com/Stephen/entry/trusted\_jds\_screenshots</p><p>Just because your low-security network has been compromised doesn't mean it has to spread over to your high-security network.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>However , the HR system ends up getting connected to the Internet so that people can fill out their time-cards , etc .
Unfortunately , the HR systems are on the same intranet as the control system .
So , once an attacker has subverted the HR system , he/she has access to the control system .
The only good solution is to run multiple intranets , but this seems rarely to be the case.Multilevel security ( MLS ) is here today and works in many situations : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilevel \ _securityhttp : //blogs.sun.com/Stephen/entry/trusted \ _jds \ _screenshotsJust because your low-security network has been compromised does n't mean it has to spread over to your high-security network .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>However, the HR system ends up getting connected to the Internet so that people can fill out their time-cards, etc.
Unfortunately, the HR systems are on the same intranet as the control system.
So, once an attacker has subverted the HR system, he/she has access to the control system.
The only good solution is to run multiple intranets, but this seems rarely to be the case.Multilevel security (MLS) is here today and works in many situations:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilevel\_securityhttp://blogs.sun.com/Stephen/entry/trusted\_jds\_screenshotsJust because your low-security network has been compromised doesn't mean it has to spread over to your high-security network.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027542</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029388</id>
	<title>The US should only be accessable by the US</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257708660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here is a clue. Put up a firewall and only allow access to US addresses by US addresses.  It's not perfect, but outsiders would definitely have a harder time accessing the systems.  GeoIP (xtables-addons) and iptables, it's what I use, and I'm not in charge of the grid.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here is a clue .
Put up a firewall and only allow access to US addresses by US addresses .
It 's not perfect , but outsiders would definitely have a harder time accessing the systems .
GeoIP ( xtables-addons ) and iptables , it 's what I use , and I 'm not in charge of the grid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here is a clue.
Put up a firewall and only allow access to US addresses by US addresses.
It's not perfect, but outsiders would definitely have a harder time accessing the systems.
GeoIP (xtables-addons) and iptables, it's what I use, and I'm not in charge of the grid.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027826</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257693180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sure, hospitals. But how about normal operations of normal businesses? A 4-day nation-wide outage should cost around 1\% of the GDP, and adding generators in every building would cost billions. Seems to me that improving security is a bargain in comparison.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure , hospitals .
But how about normal operations of normal businesses ?
A 4-day nation-wide outage should cost around 1 \ % of the GDP , and adding generators in every building would cost billions .
Seems to me that improving security is a bargain in comparison .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure, hospitals.
But how about normal operations of normal businesses?
A 4-day nation-wide outage should cost around 1\% of the GDP, and adding generators in every building would cost billions.
Seems to me that improving security is a bargain in comparison.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30033548</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1257785160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>We'd rather have good than crappy, but the power companies would rather spend on executive bonuses than on good security.</i></p><p>Or infrastructure, customer service, repairs, or anything else. <a href="http://www.sj-r.com/homepage/x801093585/Ameren-lays-off-50-gives-early-outs-to-100-more" title="sj-r.com">Ameren lays off 50, gives outs to 100 more</a> [sj-r.com]</p><p>Amerin already has the highest rates and poorest service than any other company in Illinois. Luckily for me Springfield's power company is owned by the city. We have the lowest electric rates and best dependability in the state.</p><p>In March 2006 two strong F2 tornados hit here (almost F3) and I was without power for a week. A single F1 hit the East St Louis area that June, and they were without power for a month.</p><p>If that's socialism, I say bring it on! There is no free market in utilities, and IMO they should all be publically owned like CWLP.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We 'd rather have good than crappy , but the power companies would rather spend on executive bonuses than on good security.Or infrastructure , customer service , repairs , or anything else .
Ameren lays off 50 , gives outs to 100 more [ sj-r.com ] Amerin already has the highest rates and poorest service than any other company in Illinois .
Luckily for me Springfield 's power company is owned by the city .
We have the lowest electric rates and best dependability in the state.In March 2006 two strong F2 tornados hit here ( almost F3 ) and I was without power for a week .
A single F1 hit the East St Louis area that June , and they were without power for a month.If that 's socialism , I say bring it on !
There is no free market in utilities , and IMO they should all be publically owned like CWLP .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We'd rather have good than crappy, but the power companies would rather spend on executive bonuses than on good security.Or infrastructure, customer service, repairs, or anything else.
Ameren lays off 50, gives outs to 100 more [sj-r.com]Amerin already has the highest rates and poorest service than any other company in Illinois.
Luckily for me Springfield's power company is owned by the city.
We have the lowest electric rates and best dependability in the state.In March 2006 two strong F2 tornados hit here (almost F3) and I was without power for a week.
A single F1 hit the East St Louis area that June, and they were without power for a month.If that's socialism, I say bring it on!
There is no free market in utilities, and IMO they should all be publically owned like CWLP.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028034</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028018</id>
	<title>This is not an accident</title>
	<author>crf00</author>
	<datestamp>1257695040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No there's still more things to do, we still need to blow up the nuclear reactor and shut down the backup grid system. In five minutes, I'll tear that whole goddamn building down. Tonight is not an accident. There are no accidents. We have not come here by chance. I do not believe in chance. When I see three objectives, three captains, three ships. I do not see coincidence, I see providence. I see purpose. I believe it our fate to be here. It is our destiny. I believe this night holds for each and every one of us, the very meaning of our lives.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No there 's still more things to do , we still need to blow up the nuclear reactor and shut down the backup grid system .
In five minutes , I 'll tear that whole goddamn building down .
Tonight is not an accident .
There are no accidents .
We have not come here by chance .
I do not believe in chance .
When I see three objectives , three captains , three ships .
I do not see coincidence , I see providence .
I see purpose .
I believe it our fate to be here .
It is our destiny .
I believe this night holds for each and every one of us , the very meaning of our lives .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No there's still more things to do, we still need to blow up the nuclear reactor and shut down the backup grid system.
In five minutes, I'll tear that whole goddamn building down.
Tonight is not an accident.
There are no accidents.
We have not come here by chance.
I do not believe in chance.
When I see three objectives, three captains, three ships.
I do not see coincidence, I see providence.
I see purpose.
I believe it our fate to be here.
It is our destiny.
I believe this night holds for each and every one of us, the very meaning of our lives.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030374</id>
	<title>Re:If the power grid is so vulnerable, why hasn't.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257762780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>And I'd wager that hacking the power system is probably a decidedly less resource-intensive activity than even small-scale physical attacks</p></div><p>I'll take that bet. Hacking a power system is decidely more resource-intensive &amp; technologically challenging. This is the real-world, you can't hack a gibson while getting your nuts licked.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And I 'd wager that hacking the power system is probably a decidedly less resource-intensive activity than even small-scale physical attacksI 'll take that bet .
Hacking a power system is decidely more resource-intensive &amp; technologically challenging .
This is the real-world , you ca n't hack a gibson while getting your nuts licked .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And I'd wager that hacking the power system is probably a decidedly less resource-intensive activity than even small-scale physical attacksI'll take that bet.
Hacking a power system is decidely more resource-intensive &amp; technologically challenging.
This is the real-world, you can't hack a gibson while getting your nuts licked.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027900</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030950</id>
	<title>Re:If the power grid is so vulnerable, why hasn't.</title>
	<author>ext42fs</author>
	<datestamp>1257770280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>For the same reason why there's still no massive MS-windows PC destruction: to control them has more value than to destroy them. And how would you brag about such an act of vandalism without getting into trouble?</htmltext>
<tokenext>For the same reason why there 's still no massive MS-windows PC destruction : to control them has more value than to destroy them .
And how would you brag about such an act of vandalism without getting into trouble ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For the same reason why there's still no massive MS-windows PC destruction: to control them has more value than to destroy them.
And how would you brag about such an act of vandalism without getting into trouble?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027900</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30033452</id>
	<title>joy oh joy</title>
	<author>CHRONOSS2008</author>
	<datestamp>1257784800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>my account is still here<br>OH well<br>any MORON that puts govt sensitive data, controls of ANYTHING near on or accessable to the interent deseves to get it slapped<br>in fact deserves to get the man in charge slapped</p><p>fucking noobs</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>my account is still hereOH wellany MORON that puts govt sensitive data , controls of ANYTHING near on or accessable to the interent deseves to get it slappedin fact deserves to get the man in charge slappedfucking noobs</tokentext>
<sentencetext>my account is still hereOH wellany MORON that puts govt sensitive data, controls of ANYTHING near on or accessable to the interent deseves to get it slappedin fact deserves to get the man in charge slappedfucking noobs</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029120</id>
	<title>Predicted. In '79. By a Nixon administration felon</title>
	<author>LandGator</author>
	<datestamp>1257704460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20060221022525/http://www.liddyshow.us/mustread11.php" title="archive.org">http://web.archive.org/web/20060221022525/http://www.liddyshow.us/mustread11.php</a> [archive.org]

Read that, and tell me GGL didn't have a functioning brain cell or two.</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //web.archive.org/web/20060221022525/http : //www.liddyshow.us/mustread11.php [ archive.org ] Read that , and tell me GGL did n't have a functioning brain cell or two .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://web.archive.org/web/20060221022525/http://www.liddyshow.us/mustread11.php [archive.org]

Read that, and tell me GGL didn't have a functioning brain cell or two.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026946</id>
	<title>Black People</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257686880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Welcome to Niggerbuntu</p><p>Niggerbuntu is a Linux-based operating system consisting of Free and Open Source software for laptops, desktops, and servers. Niggerbuntu has a clear focus on the user and usability - it should Just Work, even if the user has only the thinking capacities of a sponge. the OS ships with the latest Gnomrilla release as well as a selection of server and desktop software that makes for a comfortable desktop experience off of a single installation CD.</p><p>It also features the packaging manager ape-ghetto, and the challenging Linux manual pages have been reformatted into the new 'monkey' format, so for example the manual for the shutdown command can be accessed just by typing: 'monkey shut-up -h now mothafukka' instead of 'man shutdown'.</p><p>Absolutely Free of Charge</p><p>Niggerbuntu is free software, and available to you free of charge, as in free beer or free stuffs you can get from looting. It's also Free in the sense of giving you rights of Software Freedom. The freedom, to run, copy, steal, distribute, study, share, change and improve the software for any purpose, without paying licensing fees.</p><p>Free software as in free beer !</p><p>Niggerbuntu is an ancient Nigger word, meaning "humanity to monkeys". Niggerbuntu also means "I am what I am because of how apes behave". The Niggerbuntu Linux distribution brings the spirit of Niggerbuntu to the software world.</p><p>The dictator Bokassa described Niggerbuntu in the following way:</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "A subhuman with Niggerbuntu is open and available to others (like a white bitch you're ready to fsck), affirming of others, does not feel threatened by the fact that other species are more intelligent than we are, for it has a proper self-assurance that comes from knowing that it belongs to the great monkey specie."</p><p>We chose the name Niggerbuntu for this distribution because we think it captures perfectly the spirit of sharing and looting that is at the heart of the open source movement.</p><p>Niggerbuntu - Linux for Subhuman Beings.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Welcome to NiggerbuntuNiggerbuntu is a Linux-based operating system consisting of Free and Open Source software for laptops , desktops , and servers .
Niggerbuntu has a clear focus on the user and usability - it should Just Work , even if the user has only the thinking capacities of a sponge .
the OS ships with the latest Gnomrilla release as well as a selection of server and desktop software that makes for a comfortable desktop experience off of a single installation CD.It also features the packaging manager ape-ghetto , and the challenging Linux manual pages have been reformatted into the new 'monkey ' format , so for example the manual for the shutdown command can be accessed just by typing : 'monkey shut-up -h now mothafukka ' instead of 'man shutdown'.Absolutely Free of ChargeNiggerbuntu is free software , and available to you free of charge , as in free beer or free stuffs you can get from looting .
It 's also Free in the sense of giving you rights of Software Freedom .
The freedom , to run , copy , steal , distribute , study , share , change and improve the software for any purpose , without paying licensing fees.Free software as in free beer ! Niggerbuntu is an ancient Nigger word , meaning " humanity to monkeys " .
Niggerbuntu also means " I am what I am because of how apes behave " .
The Niggerbuntu Linux distribution brings the spirit of Niggerbuntu to the software world.The dictator Bokassa described Niggerbuntu in the following way :         " A subhuman with Niggerbuntu is open and available to others ( like a white bitch you 're ready to fsck ) , affirming of others , does not feel threatened by the fact that other species are more intelligent than we are , for it has a proper self-assurance that comes from knowing that it belongs to the great monkey specie .
" We chose the name Niggerbuntu for this distribution because we think it captures perfectly the spirit of sharing and looting that is at the heart of the open source movement.Niggerbuntu - Linux for Subhuman Beings .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Welcome to NiggerbuntuNiggerbuntu is a Linux-based operating system consisting of Free and Open Source software for laptops, desktops, and servers.
Niggerbuntu has a clear focus on the user and usability - it should Just Work, even if the user has only the thinking capacities of a sponge.
the OS ships with the latest Gnomrilla release as well as a selection of server and desktop software that makes for a comfortable desktop experience off of a single installation CD.It also features the packaging manager ape-ghetto, and the challenging Linux manual pages have been reformatted into the new 'monkey' format, so for example the manual for the shutdown command can be accessed just by typing: 'monkey shut-up -h now mothafukka' instead of 'man shutdown'.Absolutely Free of ChargeNiggerbuntu is free software, and available to you free of charge, as in free beer or free stuffs you can get from looting.
It's also Free in the sense of giving you rights of Software Freedom.
The freedom, to run, copy, steal, distribute, study, share, change and improve the software for any purpose, without paying licensing fees.Free software as in free beer !Niggerbuntu is an ancient Nigger word, meaning "humanity to monkeys".
Niggerbuntu also means "I am what I am because of how apes behave".
The Niggerbuntu Linux distribution brings the spirit of Niggerbuntu to the software world.The dictator Bokassa described Niggerbuntu in the following way:
        "A subhuman with Niggerbuntu is open and available to others (like a white bitch you're ready to fsck), affirming of others, does not feel threatened by the fact that other species are more intelligent than we are, for it has a proper self-assurance that comes from knowing that it belongs to the great monkey specie.
"We chose the name Niggerbuntu for this distribution because we think it captures perfectly the spirit of sharing and looting that is at the heart of the open source movement.Niggerbuntu - Linux for Subhuman Beings.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30038812</id>
	<title>Re:Obvious solution</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1257763680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>...charge the company with criminally negligent homicide.</i></p><p>Can you point to a single time that's ever happened? Even when that chicken plant that had its fire doors chained shut to keep the workers from stealing chicken parts burned down and burned 25 people to death, the guy who actually chained the doors shut only spent two years in prison.</p><p>It's ok to kill if you're a corporation. Hell, you can even kill children with impunity, look at Jack in the Box.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...charge the company with criminally negligent homicide.Can you point to a single time that 's ever happened ?
Even when that chicken plant that had its fire doors chained shut to keep the workers from stealing chicken parts burned down and burned 25 people to death , the guy who actually chained the doors shut only spent two years in prison.It 's ok to kill if you 're a corporation .
Hell , you can even kill children with impunity , look at Jack in the Box .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...charge the company with criminally negligent homicide.Can you point to a single time that's ever happened?
Even when that chicken plant that had its fire doors chained shut to keep the workers from stealing chicken parts burned down and burned 25 people to death, the guy who actually chained the doors shut only spent two years in prison.It's ok to kill if you're a corporation.
Hell, you can even kill children with impunity, look at Jack in the Box.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028252</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30083146</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>kd5zex</author>
	<datestamp>1258043220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There was an interesting blog in the economist magazine</p></div><p>Not to pick nits, but since it was in a magazine wouldn't it be an article or a column?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There was an interesting blog in the economist magazineNot to pick nits , but since it was in a magazine would n't it be an article or a column ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There was an interesting blog in the economist magazineNot to pick nits, but since it was in a magazine wouldn't it be an article or a column?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027640</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028000</id>
	<title>How Long?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257694920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How long until the power companies are entirely run by the government?  I know, I know, they practically are, but the second a terrorist, or a hacker wants to have fun, people will be screaming bloody murder that the government should have control.  The practical side of me says that a power company would want to protect their assets, but most people seem to think that this means the government should protect that for them.  Is there anything the government can do to increase security without taking away control from these corporations?  Or should we just make the transition now to complete government control while the attacks havn't happened?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How long until the power companies are entirely run by the government ?
I know , I know , they practically are , but the second a terrorist , or a hacker wants to have fun , people will be screaming bloody murder that the government should have control .
The practical side of me says that a power company would want to protect their assets , but most people seem to think that this means the government should protect that for them .
Is there anything the government can do to increase security without taking away control from these corporations ?
Or should we just make the transition now to complete government control while the attacks hav n't happened ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How long until the power companies are entirely run by the government?
I know, I know, they practically are, but the second a terrorist, or a hacker wants to have fun, people will be screaming bloody murder that the government should have control.
The practical side of me says that a power company would want to protect their assets, but most people seem to think that this means the government should protect that for them.
Is there anything the government can do to increase security without taking away control from these corporations?
Or should we just make the transition now to complete government control while the attacks havn't happened?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30038658</id>
	<title>redundancy</title>
	<author>delvsional</author>
	<datestamp>1257762960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>In areas that are cold enough to require heat to survive, Electricity is not allowed to be the only source of heat.  You must have a backup such as propane or a woodstove.  I'm not sure but I think its part of building code.  If you think people are going to die from the cold, you, like the congressman, are misguided.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In areas that are cold enough to require heat to survive , Electricity is not allowed to be the only source of heat .
You must have a backup such as propane or a woodstove .
I 'm not sure but I think its part of building code .
If you think people are going to die from the cold , you , like the congressman , are misguided .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In areas that are cold enough to require heat to survive, Electricity is not allowed to be the only source of heat.
You must have a backup such as propane or a woodstove.
I'm not sure but I think its part of building code.
If you think people are going to die from the cold, you, like the congressman, are misguided.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30035482</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>interploy</author>
	<datestamp>1257792840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Probably impossible.</p><p>As we all should know by now, impenetrable security doesn't exist. What we should probably have is tighter backup power for essential services and places like hospitals, where local redundancy could help in the face of a remote 'hacker' type attack</p></div><p>Not probably. There is a universal rule: "If it can be made, it can be unmade."</p><p>Redundant systems independent (or even interdependent) of the grid would be the best course of action from a common sense standpoint, but sadly it isn't practical in terms of profit. First they have to figure out who's going to pay for the generators, then the maintenance, then retrofitting the buildings (if it's even possible), etc. etc. It'd be the same thing as what's going on with GPS-based navigation for airlines: a vastly improved, practical system built on proven technology with no one willing to pay for it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Probably impossible.As we all should know by now , impenetrable security does n't exist .
What we should probably have is tighter backup power for essential services and places like hospitals , where local redundancy could help in the face of a remote 'hacker ' type attackNot probably .
There is a universal rule : " If it can be made , it can be unmade .
" Redundant systems independent ( or even interdependent ) of the grid would be the best course of action from a common sense standpoint , but sadly it is n't practical in terms of profit .
First they have to figure out who 's going to pay for the generators , then the maintenance , then retrofitting the buildings ( if it 's even possible ) , etc .
etc. It 'd be the same thing as what 's going on with GPS-based navigation for airlines : a vastly improved , practical system built on proven technology with no one willing to pay for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Probably impossible.As we all should know by now, impenetrable security doesn't exist.
What we should probably have is tighter backup power for essential services and places like hospitals, where local redundancy could help in the face of a remote 'hacker' type attackNot probably.
There is a universal rule: "If it can be made, it can be unmade.
"Redundant systems independent (or even interdependent) of the grid would be the best course of action from a common sense standpoint, but sadly it isn't practical in terms of profit.
First they have to figure out who's going to pay for the generators, then the maintenance, then retrofitting the buildings (if it's even possible), etc.
etc. It'd be the same thing as what's going on with GPS-based navigation for airlines: a vastly improved, practical system built on proven technology with no one willing to pay for it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026966</id>
	<title>So how exactly does this work?</title>
	<author>mirix</author>
	<datestamp>1257687000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Is there a webpage with a big "turn off generators" button?<br> <br>
Seems to me this should be a physical access, big red button type thing, no?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is there a webpage with a big " turn off generators " button ?
Seems to me this should be a physical access , big red button type thing , no ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is there a webpage with a big "turn off generators" button?
Seems to me this should be a physical access, big red button type thing, no?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30032664</id>
	<title>Re:So...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257781740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not competely true...   As a reformed controls engineer who used to work at several equipment manufacturers, I can tell you that most of our customers connected their manufacturing/controls networks to the Internet.  They did it to allow OEMs, such as I worked for, to be able to connect to the systems for maintenance and troubleshooting.  Back in the day, the same customers would provide a dedicated dial-in phone line and modem for this purpose, but they discovered it was cheaper to just plug them all together to one network and route it out to the big outside world</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; I can also tell you that most of them were not very secure.  There were a few of them that I could connect to and see other traffic on their intranet (such as e-mail and other goodies)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not competely true... As a reformed controls engineer who used to work at several equipment manufacturers , I can tell you that most of our customers connected their manufacturing/controls networks to the Internet .
They did it to allow OEMs , such as I worked for , to be able to connect to the systems for maintenance and troubleshooting .
Back in the day , the same customers would provide a dedicated dial-in phone line and modem for this purpose , but they discovered it was cheaper to just plug them all together to one network and route it out to the big outside world     I can also tell you that most of them were not very secure .
There were a few of them that I could connect to and see other traffic on their intranet ( such as e-mail and other goodies )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not competely true...   As a reformed controls engineer who used to work at several equipment manufacturers, I can tell you that most of our customers connected their manufacturing/controls networks to the Internet.
They did it to allow OEMs, such as I worked for, to be able to connect to the systems for maintenance and troubleshooting.
Back in the day, the same customers would provide a dedicated dial-in phone line and modem for this purpose, but they discovered it was cheaper to just plug them all together to one network and route it out to the big outside world
    I can also tell you that most of them were not very secure.
There were a few of them that I could connect to and see other traffic on their intranet (such as e-mail and other goodies)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027542</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027868</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>aaarrrgggh</author>
	<datestamp>1257693600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is easy to say that a data center needs its own source of standby power, but there are a lot of industries where a one minute outage causes a six to twelve-hour restart time, and the margins are far too thin to support the additional generation infrastructure.</p><p>I know a few people putting in multi-megawatt fuel cell systems, but these have the same restart-time problem that the utility grid has, which is ultimately the problem.</p><p>The easiest fix at a utility scale is to increase the amount of spinning reserve so that causing a cascading failure requires control of multiple generating facilities. Once you trip a facility offline, re-start times are just way too long, especially given emmissions controls.</p><p>I have trouble believing that the "smart grid" really solves this, although you can do some things with networked protection strategies and more selective load shed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is easy to say that a data center needs its own source of standby power , but there are a lot of industries where a one minute outage causes a six to twelve-hour restart time , and the margins are far too thin to support the additional generation infrastructure.I know a few people putting in multi-megawatt fuel cell systems , but these have the same restart-time problem that the utility grid has , which is ultimately the problem.The easiest fix at a utility scale is to increase the amount of spinning reserve so that causing a cascading failure requires control of multiple generating facilities .
Once you trip a facility offline , re-start times are just way too long , especially given emmissions controls.I have trouble believing that the " smart grid " really solves this , although you can do some things with networked protection strategies and more selective load shed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is easy to say that a data center needs its own source of standby power, but there are a lot of industries where a one minute outage causes a six to twelve-hour restart time, and the margins are far too thin to support the additional generation infrastructure.I know a few people putting in multi-megawatt fuel cell systems, but these have the same restart-time problem that the utility grid has, which is ultimately the problem.The easiest fix at a utility scale is to increase the amount of spinning reserve so that causing a cascading failure requires control of multiple generating facilities.
Once you trip a facility offline, re-start times are just way too long, especially given emmissions controls.I have trouble believing that the "smart grid" really solves this, although you can do some things with networked protection strategies and more selective load shed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029254</id>
	<title>Re:If the power grid is so vulnerable, why hasn't.</title>
	<author>cetialphav</author>
	<datestamp>1257706740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Yet it hasn't happened here or Western Europe or most modern Asian countries. Why?</p></div><p>Because no one has tried to do it.  My car has never been stolen.  It is not because I have a super secure system on it; it is because no one has tried.  Anyone who knew what he was doing, could drive off in that thing in 30 seconds.  On September 10, 2001, many people would have said that if our planes were so vulnerable to being hijacked and being used as missles, how come no one had done it?  After all, Al-Qaeda had been attacking us in various places for years.</p><p>I would imagine that there are governments that have the knowledge and capability to launch an attack on our infrastructure, but there is no reason to do this.  The US is a major trading partner with everyone who would have this capability so there is nothing to gain right now.  There probably are not a lot of non-government groups that have the knowledge and capability necessary for this kind of attack, but that might change one day.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yet it has n't happened here or Western Europe or most modern Asian countries .
Why ? Because no one has tried to do it .
My car has never been stolen .
It is not because I have a super secure system on it ; it is because no one has tried .
Anyone who knew what he was doing , could drive off in that thing in 30 seconds .
On September 10 , 2001 , many people would have said that if our planes were so vulnerable to being hijacked and being used as missles , how come no one had done it ?
After all , Al-Qaeda had been attacking us in various places for years.I would imagine that there are governments that have the knowledge and capability to launch an attack on our infrastructure , but there is no reason to do this .
The US is a major trading partner with everyone who would have this capability so there is nothing to gain right now .
There probably are not a lot of non-government groups that have the knowledge and capability necessary for this kind of attack , but that might change one day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yet it hasn't happened here or Western Europe or most modern Asian countries.
Why?Because no one has tried to do it.
My car has never been stolen.
It is not because I have a super secure system on it; it is because no one has tried.
Anyone who knew what he was doing, could drive off in that thing in 30 seconds.
On September 10, 2001, many people would have said that if our planes were so vulnerable to being hijacked and being used as missles, how come no one had done it?
After all, Al-Qaeda had been attacking us in various places for years.I would imagine that there are governments that have the knowledge and capability to launch an attack on our infrastructure, but there is no reason to do this.
The US is a major trading partner with everyone who would have this capability so there is nothing to gain right now.
There probably are not a lot of non-government groups that have the knowledge and capability necessary for this kind of attack, but that might change one day.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027900</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027210</id>
	<title>Re:Hit'em in their wallets</title>
	<author>cjfs</author>
	<datestamp>1257688560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Exactly right, this is a capitalist society, ran on making money. If they won't integrate safety systems to protect the system properly from hacker attacks, hit them in the wallet, hard.</p></div><p>This is the fundamental point. Those with the ability to secure the system need to be the ones paying for breeches. Bruce Schneier had several good articles around this point. The main example being banks/credit card companies paying for fraud. If they could just push that onto the customer, there would be far more instances of fraud. Instead, they take responsibility for the whole system and customers are far better off for it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly right , this is a capitalist society , ran on making money .
If they wo n't integrate safety systems to protect the system properly from hacker attacks , hit them in the wallet , hard.This is the fundamental point .
Those with the ability to secure the system need to be the ones paying for breeches .
Bruce Schneier had several good articles around this point .
The main example being banks/credit card companies paying for fraud .
If they could just push that onto the customer , there would be far more instances of fraud .
Instead , they take responsibility for the whole system and customers are far better off for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly right, this is a capitalist society, ran on making money.
If they won't integrate safety systems to protect the system properly from hacker attacks, hit them in the wallet, hard.This is the fundamental point.
Those with the ability to secure the system need to be the ones paying for breeches.
Bruce Schneier had several good articles around this point.
The main example being banks/credit card companies paying for fraud.
If they could just push that onto the customer, there would be far more instances of fraud.
Instead, they take responsibility for the whole system and customers are far better off for it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030150</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>1s44c</author>
	<datestamp>1257759900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Probably impossible.</p><p>As we all should know by now, impenetrable security doesn't exist.</p></div><p>Maybe not. But a good first step would be to not connect critical infrastructure to the internet.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Probably impossible.As we all should know by now , impenetrable security does n't exist.Maybe not .
But a good first step would be to not connect critical infrastructure to the internet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Probably impossible.As we all should know by now, impenetrable security doesn't exist.Maybe not.
But a good first step would be to not connect critical infrastructure to the internet.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028030</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>TubeSteak</author>
	<datestamp>1257695160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>prove it, damn defeatists always claim that a perfect system is impossible. <b>Hire competent workers</b><nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p></div><p>And there's your problem right there.<br>Even the DoD and the CIA still hire the occassional spy and give them top secret security clearance.<br>If bad actors can't crack the hardware or software, they will always find a problem exists between keyboard and chair.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>prove it , damn defeatists always claim that a perfect system is impossible .
Hire competent workers ...And there 's your problem right there.Even the DoD and the CIA still hire the occassional spy and give them top secret security clearance.If bad actors ca n't crack the hardware or software , they will always find a problem exists between keyboard and chair .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>prove it, damn defeatists always claim that a perfect system is impossible.
Hire competent workers ...And there's your problem right there.Even the DoD and the CIA still hire the occassional spy and give them top secret security clearance.If bad actors can't crack the hardware or software, they will always find a problem exists between keyboard and chair.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027796</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027460</id>
	<title>Re:Hit'em in their wallets</title>
	<author>VirginMary</author>
	<datestamp>1257690360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>breeches[brich-iz]</p><p>-noun (used with a plural verb)<br>1. Also called knee breeches. knee-length trousers, often having ornamental buckles or elaborate decoration at or near the bottoms, commonly worn by men and boys in the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries.<br>2. riding breeches.<br>3. Informal. trousers.<br>--Idiom<br>4. too big for one's breeches, asserting oneself beyond one's authority or ability.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>breeches [ brich-iz ] -noun ( used with a plural verb ) 1 .
Also called knee breeches .
knee-length trousers , often having ornamental buckles or elaborate decoration at or near the bottoms , commonly worn by men and boys in the 17th , 18th , and early 19th centuries.2 .
riding breeches.3 .
Informal. trousers.--Idiom4 .
too big for one 's breeches , asserting oneself beyond one 's authority or ability .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>breeches[brich-iz]-noun (used with a plural verb)1.
Also called knee breeches.
knee-length trousers, often having ornamental buckles or elaborate decoration at or near the bottoms, commonly worn by men and boys in the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries.2.
riding breeches.3.
Informal. trousers.--Idiom4.
too big for one's breeches, asserting oneself beyond one's authority or ability.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028694</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257700920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Sure, impenetrable security exists.  Don't put your key infrastructure equipment out on the public Internet.  Lax security like that will always end up being a problem.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; I won't say I'm perfect, but I'm also not getting the big bucks that the power companies are.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; I only watched part of they show, but they were talking about a DoD site (I believe) that had a security breach, because someone plugged in a virus infected USB drive.  Ummmm, why was someone allowed to attach that in the first place?</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; When I ran a big network, the only USB drives that people were allow to attach were provided by me, only for use on the network.  They didn't go on personal machines.  People didn't bring personal machines in to use on the server network.  Then again, all of our servers were Linux, so it really didn't matter.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)  I still had the policy in place, just as a good security practice.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>    Sure , impenetrable security exists .
Do n't put your key infrastructure equipment out on the public Internet .
Lax security like that will always end up being a problem .
    I wo n't say I 'm perfect , but I 'm also not getting the big bucks that the power companies are .
    I only watched part of they show , but they were talking about a DoD site ( I believe ) that had a security breach , because someone plugged in a virus infected USB drive .
Ummmm , why was someone allowed to attach that in the first place ?
    When I ran a big network , the only USB drives that people were allow to attach were provided by me , only for use on the network .
They did n't go on personal machines .
People did n't bring personal machines in to use on the server network .
Then again , all of our servers were Linux , so it really did n't matter .
: ) I still had the policy in place , just as a good security practice .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
    Sure, impenetrable security exists.
Don't put your key infrastructure equipment out on the public Internet.
Lax security like that will always end up being a problem.
    I won't say I'm perfect, but I'm also not getting the big bucks that the power companies are.
    I only watched part of they show, but they were talking about a DoD site (I believe) that had a security breach, because someone plugged in a virus infected USB drive.
Ummmm, why was someone allowed to attach that in the first place?
    When I ran a big network, the only USB drives that people were allow to attach were provided by me, only for use on the network.
They didn't go on personal machines.
People didn't bring personal machines in to use on the server network.
Then again, all of our servers were Linux, so it really didn't matter.
:)  I still had the policy in place, just as a good security practice.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029000</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>RightwingNutjob</author>
	<datestamp>1257703440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's perfectly possible. It's called an air gap. If you still want centralized control of a remote substation, don't do it over the public internet. That's not as bad as it sounds in terms of costs, because if you're the power company, you already own a completely independent set of cables to said substation. Now the hacker has to get out of his mom's basement and climb a utility pole to hack you.
<br>
<br>
Still worried about the possibility of remote hacking from a guy who spent too much time climbing trees in his childhood? Again: airgap. The only bits that should flow between the data transciever in the substation and the actual critical hardware shouldn't flow directly. Observe below: <br>
[Command/Control Center] -----dedicated line-----[Rx/Tx Computer]---Low BW Link----[Local Control Computer]----Hardware
<br> <br>
The local control computer, which should be locked up in the substation with a big steel door on it should have internal software interlocks in it that reject bad input from the physically separate transceiver unit. By physically separate, I mean really physically separate, as in one wire per bit for commands and one analog channel for values. Possibly optical lines if we're paranoid about RFI. Now, in order to hack that one substation, the hacker has to physically break into it. At which point we're back to the vulnerability inherent in any distributed dumb system.
<br>
<br>
I take cash or check.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's perfectly possible .
It 's called an air gap .
If you still want centralized control of a remote substation , do n't do it over the public internet .
That 's not as bad as it sounds in terms of costs , because if you 're the power company , you already own a completely independent set of cables to said substation .
Now the hacker has to get out of his mom 's basement and climb a utility pole to hack you .
Still worried about the possibility of remote hacking from a guy who spent too much time climbing trees in his childhood ?
Again : airgap .
The only bits that should flow between the data transciever in the substation and the actual critical hardware should n't flow directly .
Observe below : [ Command/Control Center ] -----dedicated line----- [ Rx/Tx Computer ] ---Low BW Link---- [ Local Control Computer ] ----Hardware The local control computer , which should be locked up in the substation with a big steel door on it should have internal software interlocks in it that reject bad input from the physically separate transceiver unit .
By physically separate , I mean really physically separate , as in one wire per bit for commands and one analog channel for values .
Possibly optical lines if we 're paranoid about RFI .
Now , in order to hack that one substation , the hacker has to physically break into it .
At which point we 're back to the vulnerability inherent in any distributed dumb system .
I take cash or check .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's perfectly possible.
It's called an air gap.
If you still want centralized control of a remote substation, don't do it over the public internet.
That's not as bad as it sounds in terms of costs, because if you're the power company, you already own a completely independent set of cables to said substation.
Now the hacker has to get out of his mom's basement and climb a utility pole to hack you.
Still worried about the possibility of remote hacking from a guy who spent too much time climbing trees in his childhood?
Again: airgap.
The only bits that should flow between the data transciever in the substation and the actual critical hardware shouldn't flow directly.
Observe below: 
[Command/Control Center] -----dedicated line-----[Rx/Tx Computer]---Low BW Link----[Local Control Computer]----Hardware
 
The local control computer, which should be locked up in the substation with a big steel door on it should have internal software interlocks in it that reject bad input from the physically separate transceiver unit.
By physically separate, I mean really physically separate, as in one wire per bit for commands and one analog channel for values.
Possibly optical lines if we're paranoid about RFI.
Now, in order to hack that one substation, the hacker has to physically break into it.
At which point we're back to the vulnerability inherent in any distributed dumb system.
I take cash or check.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028558</id>
	<title>Re:Hit'em in their wallets</title>
	<author>Nefarious Wheel</author>
	<datestamp>1257699540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Those with the ability to secure the system need to be the ones paying for breeches.</p></div><p>Really?  That sounds like utter pants to me.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Those with the ability to secure the system need to be the ones paying for breeches.Really ?
That sounds like utter pants to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Those with the ability to secure the system need to be the ones paying for breeches.Really?
That sounds like utter pants to me.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027402</id>
	<title>Re:Hit'em in their wallets</title>
	<author>Cornwallis</author>
	<datestamp>1257689940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><nobr> <wbr></nobr></p><div class="quote"><p>...not just take their BS word for it. If all they give you is hot air and no implementation, fine them millions of dollars, and on a regular basis if need be til they implement it.</p></div><p>Why not hold the Criminals-in-Congress(TM) to the same standard?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>...not just take their BS word for it .
If all they give you is hot air and no implementation , fine them millions of dollars , and on a regular basis if need be til they implement it.Why not hold the Criminals-in-Congress ( TM ) to the same standard ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext> ...not just take their BS word for it.
If all they give you is hot air and no implementation, fine them millions of dollars, and on a regular basis if need be til they implement it.Why not hold the Criminals-in-Congress(TM) to the same standard?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30035786</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>shankarunni</author>
	<datestamp>1257793920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Totally impenetrable physical security doesn't exist, but totally impenetrable <b>electronic</b> security most certainly does.  It's quite simple to make something completely immune to hacker attacks over the internet: disconnect it from the internet!</p></div><p>Which was exactly my instant reaction when I saw the story. The real problem, as mentioned by Congressman Langevin, is that most of the power providers are small private operators that swim in murky waters. They like the "convenience" of having their billing systems, control systems, and the secretary's network resources all on the same network ("easy to administer with one sysadmin", I suppose), and "just put a firewall" to protect the key systems.</p><p>Profit is everything when the profits tend to be razor-thin.  It's the middlemen that make most of the money, not the producers.</p><p>Of course, our defense infrastructure isn't immune to this, either. The easiest "break-ins" are apparently by just leaving around USB keys in the parking lot, and depending on unsuspecting and greedy people picking them up and sticking it into their laptops or desktops to see what's on it (and whether they can nab it for themselves..)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Totally impenetrable physical security does n't exist , but totally impenetrable electronic security most certainly does .
It 's quite simple to make something completely immune to hacker attacks over the internet : disconnect it from the internet ! Which was exactly my instant reaction when I saw the story .
The real problem , as mentioned by Congressman Langevin , is that most of the power providers are small private operators that swim in murky waters .
They like the " convenience " of having their billing systems , control systems , and the secretary 's network resources all on the same network ( " easy to administer with one sysadmin " , I suppose ) , and " just put a firewall " to protect the key systems.Profit is everything when the profits tend to be razor-thin .
It 's the middlemen that make most of the money , not the producers.Of course , our defense infrastructure is n't immune to this , either .
The easiest " break-ins " are apparently by just leaving around USB keys in the parking lot , and depending on unsuspecting and greedy people picking them up and sticking it into their laptops or desktops to see what 's on it ( and whether they can nab it for themselves.. )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Totally impenetrable physical security doesn't exist, but totally impenetrable electronic security most certainly does.
It's quite simple to make something completely immune to hacker attacks over the internet: disconnect it from the internet!Which was exactly my instant reaction when I saw the story.
The real problem, as mentioned by Congressman Langevin, is that most of the power providers are small private operators that swim in murky waters.
They like the "convenience" of having their billing systems, control systems, and the secretary's network resources all on the same network ("easy to administer with one sysadmin", I suppose), and "just put a firewall" to protect the key systems.Profit is everything when the profits tend to be razor-thin.
It's the middlemen that make most of the money, not the producers.Of course, our defense infrastructure isn't immune to this, either.
The easiest "break-ins" are apparently by just leaving around USB keys in the parking lot, and depending on unsuspecting and greedy people picking them up and sticking it into their laptops or desktops to see what's on it (and whether they can nab it for themselves..)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028358</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30033662</id>
	<title>cyber bullshit ..</title>
	<author>viralMeme</author>
	<datestamp>1257785700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>There is little hard evidence in the 'report' as to what caused these outages in Brazil. And given that since at least <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast\_Blackout\_of\_2003" title="wikipedia.org">2003</a> [wikipedia.org],  the US administration has been well aware of the dangers of putting control equipment on the Internet, why are they still doing it? This whole cyberscare story is yet another pretext for getting more funding.<br> <br>

<a href="http://www.bnamericas.com/news/electricpower/Authorities\_blame\_human\_error\_for\_Jan,1\_blackout" title="bnamericas.com">Authorities blame human error for Jan.1 blackout - Brazil</a> [bnamericas.com] <br> <br>

<i>A power cut<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. was caused by a combination of technical and human error<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. when two of the four lines running from the Cachoeira Paulista substation - between Sao Paulo and Minas Gerais states - to Rio de Janeiro failed. A third line was switched off because of the low consumption on what was a public holiday, and the system operator accidentally disconnected the fourth line</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is little hard evidence in the 'report ' as to what caused these outages in Brazil .
And given that since at least 2003 [ wikipedia.org ] , the US administration has been well aware of the dangers of putting control equipment on the Internet , why are they still doing it ?
This whole cyberscare story is yet another pretext for getting more funding .
Authorities blame human error for Jan.1 blackout - Brazil [ bnamericas.com ] A power cut .. was caused by a combination of technical and human error .. when two of the four lines running from the Cachoeira Paulista substation - between Sao Paulo and Minas Gerais states - to Rio de Janeiro failed .
A third line was switched off because of the low consumption on what was a public holiday , and the system operator accidentally disconnected the fourth line</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is little hard evidence in the 'report' as to what caused these outages in Brazil.
And given that since at least 2003 [wikipedia.org],  the US administration has been well aware of the dangers of putting control equipment on the Internet, why are they still doing it?
This whole cyberscare story is yet another pretext for getting more funding.
Authorities blame human error for Jan.1 blackout - Brazil [bnamericas.com]  

A power cut .. was caused by a combination of technical and human error .. when two of the four lines running from the Cachoeira Paulista substation - between Sao Paulo and Minas Gerais states - to Rio de Janeiro failed.
A third line was switched off because of the low consumption on what was a public holiday, and the system operator accidentally disconnected the fourth line</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30036700</id>
	<title>Does that mean local terrorists like Enron also?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257798000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How can they protect against US traders who game the system like Enron did?</p><p>http://www.marketwatch.com/story/enron-caused-california-blackouts-traders-say?siteid=mktw</p><p>Phantom congestion</p><p>"What we did was overbook the line we had the rights on during a shortage or in a heat wave,'" one trader said. "We did this in June 2000 when the Bay Area was going through a heat wave and the ISO couldn't send power to the North. The ISO has to pay Enron to free up the line in order to send power to San Francisco to keep the lights on. But by the time they agreed to pay us, rolling blackouts had already hit California and the price for electricity went through the roof."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How can they protect against US traders who game the system like Enron did ? http : //www.marketwatch.com/story/enron-caused-california-blackouts-traders-say ? siteid = mktwPhantom congestion " What we did was overbook the line we had the rights on during a shortage or in a heat wave, ' " one trader said .
" We did this in June 2000 when the Bay Area was going through a heat wave and the ISO could n't send power to the North .
The ISO has to pay Enron to free up the line in order to send power to San Francisco to keep the lights on .
But by the time they agreed to pay us , rolling blackouts had already hit California and the price for electricity went through the roof .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How can they protect against US traders who game the system like Enron did?http://www.marketwatch.com/story/enron-caused-california-blackouts-traders-say?siteid=mktwPhantom congestion"What we did was overbook the line we had the rights on during a shortage or in a heat wave,'" one trader said.
"We did this in June 2000 when the Bay Area was going through a heat wave and the ISO couldn't send power to the North.
The ISO has to pay Enron to free up the line in order to send power to San Francisco to keep the lights on.
But by the time they agreed to pay us, rolling blackouts had already hit California and the price for electricity went through the roof.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027796</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>RiotingPacifist</author>
	<datestamp>1257692940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>As we all should know by now, impenetrable security doesn't exist.</p> </div><p>prove it, damn defeatists always claim that a perfect system is impossible. Hire competent workers, guarantee physical security (we are talking about power plants ffs) and audit the system from the bottom. Look at xscreensaver 10 years with 0 security holes, it allong with a host of other programs, show that you can make a system impenetrable!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As we all should know by now , impenetrable security does n't exist .
prove it , damn defeatists always claim that a perfect system is impossible .
Hire competent workers , guarantee physical security ( we are talking about power plants ffs ) and audit the system from the bottom .
Look at xscreensaver 10 years with 0 security holes , it allong with a host of other programs , show that you can make a system impenetrable !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As we all should know by now, impenetrable security doesn't exist.
prove it, damn defeatists always claim that a perfect system is impossible.
Hire competent workers, guarantee physical security (we are talking about power plants ffs) and audit the system from the bottom.
Look at xscreensaver 10 years with 0 security holes, it allong with a host of other programs, show that you can make a system impenetrable!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30059260</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257086340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Why the nation's power grid control absolutely needs to be tied into the internet, I have no idea"</p><p>Why you think that this is true I have no Idea ?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Why the nation 's power grid control absolutely needs to be tied into the internet , I have no idea " Why you think that this is true I have no Idea ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Why the nation's power grid control absolutely needs to be tied into the internet, I have no idea"Why you think that this is true I have no Idea ?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028358</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030218</id>
	<title>Re:If the power grid is so vulnerable, why hasn't.</title>
	<author>RAMMS+EIN</author>
	<datestamp>1257760620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Because security through obscurity actually does work.</p><p>If all security vulnerabilities anywhere affecting the grid were publicly known, I am pretty sure we'd see outages more often. Forget malicious attackers, there are misguided souls who think this kind of thing is fun.</p><p>Of course, if these vulnerabilities were publicly known and being exploited, they would also be addressed.</p><p>As it is, my money is on "it's not secure, but the people who know the ways in aren't talking, and are ethical enough not to exploit the system themselves." That's how security works almost everywhere I've been to.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because security through obscurity actually does work.If all security vulnerabilities anywhere affecting the grid were publicly known , I am pretty sure we 'd see outages more often .
Forget malicious attackers , there are misguided souls who think this kind of thing is fun.Of course , if these vulnerabilities were publicly known and being exploited , they would also be addressed.As it is , my money is on " it 's not secure , but the people who know the ways in are n't talking , and are ethical enough not to exploit the system themselves .
" That 's how security works almost everywhere I 've been to .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because security through obscurity actually does work.If all security vulnerabilities anywhere affecting the grid were publicly known, I am pretty sure we'd see outages more often.
Forget malicious attackers, there are misguided souls who think this kind of thing is fun.Of course, if these vulnerabilities were publicly known and being exploited, they would also be addressed.As it is, my money is on "it's not secure, but the people who know the ways in aren't talking, and are ethical enough not to exploit the system themselves.
" That's how security works almost everywhere I've been to.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027900</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30029556</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257796860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Amusingly it is all about management. Of course it is.</p><p>Unless you keep a separate control station on each operator's desk that is completely cut off from internet you will have the potential of such a security hole. Most systems are not made that way for a reason. Cost.</p><p>I have too much inside information on some norwegian systems and I've intentionally left out some details but here goes....</p><p>The main control system of an oil rig is run on a token ring network (infi90, Bailey Controls product).</p><p>This loop is connected to a gateway that hooks it up to a redundant ethernet network. ("Control Network")</p><p>This control network is again connected to an OPC gateway that connects it to another redundant ethernet network ("client/server")</p><p>This client/server network is connected to a firewall which routes some ports from the outside to the inside.</p><p>The outside network is an internal network of BigOilCompany.</p><p>Through yet another firewall this network is connected to the office network of BigOilCompany (still a fairly secure network).</p><p>Through their main firewall the office network is connected to the internet.<br>Why is it all connected? Because when shit happens you want to be able to get the right people connected fast as hell. You also want to be able to share data between systems. It is a highly complex system after all!</p><p>Technically speaking the control network is connected to the internet. There -is- a potential for a cracking attempt here.. Very unlikely as you would have to pass through at least 3 firewalls of different brands (no single vuln can do it that way).</p><p>As for the power issues I would point out that all the various switching stations, power plants, transformer farms etc have to be very closely connected for regulating the load and production of power. If something bad happens (like a blown transformer) you dont have all that many seconds to reroute power before you end up with a cascade failure. "Isolated" systems dont do that well. They can of course disconnect themselves to protect the hardware but that would -cause- a cascade<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p><p>So... This is a whole lot harder to do that you'd think. Just something to think about.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Amusingly it is all about management .
Of course it is.Unless you keep a separate control station on each operator 's desk that is completely cut off from internet you will have the potential of such a security hole .
Most systems are not made that way for a reason .
Cost.I have too much inside information on some norwegian systems and I 've intentionally left out some details but here goes....The main control system of an oil rig is run on a token ring network ( infi90 , Bailey Controls product ) .This loop is connected to a gateway that hooks it up to a redundant ethernet network .
( " Control Network " ) This control network is again connected to an OPC gateway that connects it to another redundant ethernet network ( " client/server " ) This client/server network is connected to a firewall which routes some ports from the outside to the inside.The outside network is an internal network of BigOilCompany.Through yet another firewall this network is connected to the office network of BigOilCompany ( still a fairly secure network ) .Through their main firewall the office network is connected to the internet.Why is it all connected ?
Because when shit happens you want to be able to get the right people connected fast as hell .
You also want to be able to share data between systems .
It is a highly complex system after all ! Technically speaking the control network is connected to the internet .
There -is- a potential for a cracking attempt here.. Very unlikely as you would have to pass through at least 3 firewalls of different brands ( no single vuln can do it that way ) .As for the power issues I would point out that all the various switching stations , power plants , transformer farms etc have to be very closely connected for regulating the load and production of power .
If something bad happens ( like a blown transformer ) you dont have all that many seconds to reroute power before you end up with a cascade failure .
" Isolated " systems dont do that well .
They can of course disconnect themselves to protect the hardware but that would -cause- a cascade ; ) So... This is a whole lot harder to do that you 'd think .
Just something to think about .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Amusingly it is all about management.
Of course it is.Unless you keep a separate control station on each operator's desk that is completely cut off from internet you will have the potential of such a security hole.
Most systems are not made that way for a reason.
Cost.I have too much inside information on some norwegian systems and I've intentionally left out some details but here goes....The main control system of an oil rig is run on a token ring network (infi90, Bailey Controls product).This loop is connected to a gateway that hooks it up to a redundant ethernet network.
("Control Network")This control network is again connected to an OPC gateway that connects it to another redundant ethernet network ("client/server")This client/server network is connected to a firewall which routes some ports from the outside to the inside.The outside network is an internal network of BigOilCompany.Through yet another firewall this network is connected to the office network of BigOilCompany (still a fairly secure network).Through their main firewall the office network is connected to the internet.Why is it all connected?
Because when shit happens you want to be able to get the right people connected fast as hell.
You also want to be able to share data between systems.
It is a highly complex system after all!Technically speaking the control network is connected to the internet.
There -is- a potential for a cracking attempt here.. Very unlikely as you would have to pass through at least 3 firewalls of different brands (no single vuln can do it that way).As for the power issues I would point out that all the various switching stations, power plants, transformer farms etc have to be very closely connected for regulating the load and production of power.
If something bad happens (like a blown transformer) you dont have all that many seconds to reroute power before you end up with a cascade failure.
"Isolated" systems dont do that well.
They can of course disconnect themselves to protect the hardware but that would -cause- a cascade ;)So... This is a whole lot harder to do that you'd think.
Just something to think about.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028358</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027542</id>
	<title>Re:So...</title>
	<author>Peter Mork</author>
	<datestamp>1257691020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Every time one of these stories hits the Web, I find that I need to explain how control systems end up connected to the Internet (at least in those cases I've heard of).  The control system, itself, is NOT connected to the Internet.  However, the HR system ends up getting connected to the Internet so that people can fill out their time-cards, etc.  Unfortunately, the HR systems are on the same intranet as the control system.  So, once an attacker has subverted the HR system, he/she has access to the control system.  The only good solution is to run multiple intranets, but this seems rarely to be the case.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Every time one of these stories hits the Web , I find that I need to explain how control systems end up connected to the Internet ( at least in those cases I 've heard of ) .
The control system , itself , is NOT connected to the Internet .
However , the HR system ends up getting connected to the Internet so that people can fill out their time-cards , etc .
Unfortunately , the HR systems are on the same intranet as the control system .
So , once an attacker has subverted the HR system , he/she has access to the control system .
The only good solution is to run multiple intranets , but this seems rarely to be the case .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Every time one of these stories hits the Web, I find that I need to explain how control systems end up connected to the Internet (at least in those cases I've heard of).
The control system, itself, is NOT connected to the Internet.
However, the HR system ends up getting connected to the Internet so that people can fill out their time-cards, etc.
Unfortunately, the HR systems are on the same intranet as the control system.
So, once an attacker has subverted the HR system, he/she has access to the control system.
The only good solution is to run multiple intranets, but this seems rarely to be the case.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026944</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026980</id>
	<title>Sure it's going to happen...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257687060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Protecting against virtual attacks is going to be the next growth industry; at least if defense contractors have anything to with it.  The following from <a href="http://cryptome.org/" title="cryptome.org" rel="nofollow">cryptome</a> [cryptome.org], which I'd link to if there were a way to do that.</p><blockquote><div><p>A sends:</p><p>I was watching PBS with with my daughter yesterday and a cartoon came on PBS Kids that I found a little bit disturbing. The name of the cartoon is "Cyberchase."</p><p>Here is a description of it from the PBS Website: "In the world of CYBERCHASE, the dastardly villain Hacker is on a mad mission to take over Cyberspace with the help of his blundering henchbots, Buzz and Delete. But heroes, Inez, Jackie, and Matt, are three curious kids determined to stop him with the help of their cyberpal, Digit. Their weapon: brain power."</p><p><a href="http://www.pbs.org/parents/tvprograms/program-cyberchase.html" title="pbs.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.pbs.org/parents/tvprograms/program-cyberchase.html</a> [pbs.org]</p><p><a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS168619+17-Apr-2009+GNW20090417" title="reuters.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS168619+17-Apr-2009+GNW20090417</a> [reuters.com]</p><p>Kind of strange a cartoon targeting the pre-school thru early grade school demographic about hackers using their minds as weapons in cyberspace. It was even stranger when it aired again today and I had a chance to see the lead corporate sponsor, Northrop Grumman. Yes, Northrop Grumman is sponsoring a cartoon for kids on Public Television. It adds new meaning to Northrop's Motto "Defining the Future" - defining the future, one young mind at a time, through children's education.</p><p>In all honesty I just never thought PBS would have the 4th largest defense contractor in the United States, the maker of B-2 Spirit strategic bomber who helps the U.S. to maintain a safe, secure and reliable strategic nuclear deterrent sponsoring kids' cartoons. Not cool.</p></div></blockquote></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Protecting against virtual attacks is going to be the next growth industry ; at least if defense contractors have anything to with it .
The following from cryptome [ cryptome.org ] , which I 'd link to if there were a way to do that.A sends : I was watching PBS with with my daughter yesterday and a cartoon came on PBS Kids that I found a little bit disturbing .
The name of the cartoon is " Cyberchase .
" Here is a description of it from the PBS Website : " In the world of CYBERCHASE , the dastardly villain Hacker is on a mad mission to take over Cyberspace with the help of his blundering henchbots , Buzz and Delete .
But heroes , Inez , Jackie , and Matt , are three curious kids determined to stop him with the help of their cyberpal , Digit .
Their weapon : brain power .
" http : //www.pbs.org/parents/tvprograms/program-cyberchase.html [ pbs.org ] http : //www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS168619 + 17-Apr-2009 + GNW20090417 [ reuters.com ] Kind of strange a cartoon targeting the pre-school thru early grade school demographic about hackers using their minds as weapons in cyberspace .
It was even stranger when it aired again today and I had a chance to see the lead corporate sponsor , Northrop Grumman .
Yes , Northrop Grumman is sponsoring a cartoon for kids on Public Television .
It adds new meaning to Northrop 's Motto " Defining the Future " - defining the future , one young mind at a time , through children 's education.In all honesty I just never thought PBS would have the 4th largest defense contractor in the United States , the maker of B-2 Spirit strategic bomber who helps the U.S. to maintain a safe , secure and reliable strategic nuclear deterrent sponsoring kids ' cartoons .
Not cool .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Protecting against virtual attacks is going to be the next growth industry; at least if defense contractors have anything to with it.
The following from cryptome [cryptome.org], which I'd link to if there were a way to do that.A sends:I was watching PBS with with my daughter yesterday and a cartoon came on PBS Kids that I found a little bit disturbing.
The name of the cartoon is "Cyberchase.
"Here is a description of it from the PBS Website: "In the world of CYBERCHASE, the dastardly villain Hacker is on a mad mission to take over Cyberspace with the help of his blundering henchbots, Buzz and Delete.
But heroes, Inez, Jackie, and Matt, are three curious kids determined to stop him with the help of their cyberpal, Digit.
Their weapon: brain power.
"http://www.pbs.org/parents/tvprograms/program-cyberchase.html [pbs.org]http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS168619+17-Apr-2009+GNW20090417 [reuters.com]Kind of strange a cartoon targeting the pre-school thru early grade school demographic about hackers using their minds as weapons in cyberspace.
It was even stranger when it aired again today and I had a chance to see the lead corporate sponsor, Northrop Grumman.
Yes, Northrop Grumman is sponsoring a cartoon for kids on Public Television.
It adds new meaning to Northrop's Motto "Defining the Future" - defining the future, one young mind at a time, through children's education.In all honesty I just never thought PBS would have the 4th largest defense contractor in the United States, the maker of B-2 Spirit strategic bomber who helps the U.S. to maintain a safe, secure and reliable strategic nuclear deterrent sponsoring kids' cartoons.
Not cool.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028990</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>CrazyJim1</author>
	<datestamp>1257703380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Are we better off spending money assaulting terrorists where they live, or would we be better if we built more skyscrapers?  I think no one knows.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Are we better off spending money assaulting terrorists where they live , or would we be better if we built more skyscrapers ?
I think no one knows .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are we better off spending money assaulting terrorists where they live, or would we be better if we built more skyscrapers?
I think no one knows.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027640</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027748</id>
	<title>Re:So...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257692580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; Who thought it would be a swell idea to to hook the grid's computers to the INTERNET?</p><p>Dunno.</p><p>But right now I'm thinking we should have a Powernet, an internet for electrical network of sorts.</p><p>By "we", I mean us Brazilians.</p><p>And you, in USA? What do you think?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; Who thought it would be a swell idea to to hook the grid 's computers to the INTERNET ? Dunno.But right now I 'm thinking we should have a Powernet , an internet for electrical network of sorts.By " we " , I mean us Brazilians.And you , in USA ?
What do you think ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; Who thought it would be a swell idea to to hook the grid's computers to the INTERNET?Dunno.But right now I'm thinking we should have a Powernet, an internet for electrical network of sorts.By "we", I mean us Brazilians.And you, in USA?
What do you think?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026944</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028086</id>
	<title>Re:Hit'em in their wallets</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257695580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>But how much energy can congress really expect them to expend defending against imagined threats?</p></div><p>Have you been to an airport in the last couple of years?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>But how much energy can congress really expect them to expend defending against imagined threats ? Have you been to an airport in the last couple of years ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But how much energy can congress really expect them to expend defending against imagined threats?Have you been to an airport in the last couple of years?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027056</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027964</id>
	<title>Re:So...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257694500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When the ISO that's buying power from you needs to tell you the current market price or tell you that you need to start up your generator, or you need to get weather forecasts to predict how much fuel you're going to use tomorrow, you can hardly avoid being on the Internet. You certainly can't have leased-lines between every control room and every entity that each needs to communicate with.</p><p>It's just not efficient or practical to not have anything on the grid attached to the Internet.</p><p>dom</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When the ISO that 's buying power from you needs to tell you the current market price or tell you that you need to start up your generator , or you need to get weather forecasts to predict how much fuel you 're going to use tomorrow , you can hardly avoid being on the Internet .
You certainly ca n't have leased-lines between every control room and every entity that each needs to communicate with.It 's just not efficient or practical to not have anything on the grid attached to the Internet.dom</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When the ISO that's buying power from you needs to tell you the current market price or tell you that you need to start up your generator, or you need to get weather forecasts to predict how much fuel you're going to use tomorrow, you can hardly avoid being on the Internet.
You certainly can't have leased-lines between every control room and every entity that each needs to communicate with.It's just not efficient or practical to not have anything on the grid attached to the Internet.dom</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026944</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030054</id>
	<title>Not the first CyberWar attack --- won't be last.</title>
	<author>PGillingwater</author>
	<datestamp>1257758940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This certainly isn't the first Cyber War attack.  I've written about some of these attacks in my blog, <a href="http://security-risk.blogspot.com/" title="blogspot.com">http://security-risk.blogspot.com/</a> [blogspot.com].  Here's an extract:</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * In 2004, Thomas C. Reed, an Air Force secretary in the Reagan administration, wrote that the United States had successfully inserted a software Trojan horse into computing equipment that the Soviet Union had bought from Canadian suppliers. Used to control a Trans-Siberian gas pipeline, the doctored software failed, leading to a spectacular explosion in 1982.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * Crypto AG, a Swiss maker of cryptographic equipment, was the subject of intense international speculation during the 1980s when, after the Reagan administration took diplomatic actions in Iran and Libya, it was widely reported in the European press that the National Security Agency had access to a hardware back door in the company&rsquo;s encryption machines that made it possible to read electronic messages transmitted by many governments.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * According to a former federal prosecutor, who declined to be identified because of his involvement in the operation, during the early &rsquo;80s the Justice Department, with the assistance of an American intelligence agency, also modified the hardware of a Digital Equipment Corporation computer to ensure that the machine &mdash; being shipped through Canada to Russia &mdash; would work erratically and could be disabled remotely.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This certainly is n't the first Cyber War attack .
I 've written about some of these attacks in my blog , http : //security-risk.blogspot.com/ [ blogspot.com ] .
Here 's an extract :         * In 2004 , Thomas C. Reed , an Air Force secretary in the Reagan administration , wrote that the United States had successfully inserted a software Trojan horse into computing equipment that the Soviet Union had bought from Canadian suppliers .
Used to control a Trans-Siberian gas pipeline , the doctored software failed , leading to a spectacular explosion in 1982 .
        * Crypto AG , a Swiss maker of cryptographic equipment , was the subject of intense international speculation during the 1980s when , after the Reagan administration took diplomatic actions in Iran and Libya , it was widely reported in the European press that the National Security Agency had access to a hardware back door in the company    s encryption machines that made it possible to read electronic messages transmitted by many governments .
        * According to a former federal prosecutor , who declined to be identified because of his involvement in the operation , during the early    80s the Justice Department , with the assistance of an American intelligence agency , also modified the hardware of a Digital Equipment Corporation computer to ensure that the machine    being shipped through Canada to Russia    would work erratically and could be disabled remotely .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This certainly isn't the first Cyber War attack.
I've written about some of these attacks in my blog, http://security-risk.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com].
Here's an extract:
        * In 2004, Thomas C. Reed, an Air Force secretary in the Reagan administration, wrote that the United States had successfully inserted a software Trojan horse into computing equipment that the Soviet Union had bought from Canadian suppliers.
Used to control a Trans-Siberian gas pipeline, the doctored software failed, leading to a spectacular explosion in 1982.
        * Crypto AG, a Swiss maker of cryptographic equipment, was the subject of intense international speculation during the 1980s when, after the Reagan administration took diplomatic actions in Iran and Libya, it was widely reported in the European press that the National Security Agency had access to a hardware back door in the company’s encryption machines that made it possible to read electronic messages transmitted by many governments.
        * According to a former federal prosecutor, who declined to be identified because of his involvement in the operation, during the early ’80s the Justice Department, with the assistance of an American intelligence agency, also modified the hardware of a Digital Equipment Corporation computer to ensure that the machine — being shipped through Canada to Russia — would work erratically and could be disabled remotely.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028756</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257701400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well, to be fair, China spends a LOT more on defense than does the west. In particular, their space program is not civilian, but run by the Military. Likewise, their internal security is really their military turned on their citizens. That alone is equal to what the USA spends on its normal military (not including our current invasions/occupation of Iraq as well as dealing with AQ in Afghanistan/Pakistan/Somalia). In addition, China is now being attacked by AQ, so they are about to get some real surprises. Finally, the CHinese budget is not really known. Most is hidden. Hell, even their total spending is unknown (what they announce is known to be a lie, since it would not even account for 1/3 of what is known to be spent for the last 5 years).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , to be fair , China spends a LOT more on defense than does the west .
In particular , their space program is not civilian , but run by the Military .
Likewise , their internal security is really their military turned on their citizens .
That alone is equal to what the USA spends on its normal military ( not including our current invasions/occupation of Iraq as well as dealing with AQ in Afghanistan/Pakistan/Somalia ) .
In addition , China is now being attacked by AQ , so they are about to get some real surprises .
Finally , the CHinese budget is not really known .
Most is hidden .
Hell , even their total spending is unknown ( what they announce is known to be a lie , since it would not even account for 1/3 of what is known to be spent for the last 5 years ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, to be fair, China spends a LOT more on defense than does the west.
In particular, their space program is not civilian, but run by the Military.
Likewise, their internal security is really their military turned on their citizens.
That alone is equal to what the USA spends on its normal military (not including our current invasions/occupation of Iraq as well as dealing with AQ in Afghanistan/Pakistan/Somalia).
In addition, China is now being attacked by AQ, so they are about to get some real surprises.
Finally, the CHinese budget is not really known.
Most is hidden.
Hell, even their total spending is unknown (what they announce is known to be a lie, since it would not even account for 1/3 of what is known to be spent for the last 5 years).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027640</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030908</id>
	<title>Build it and they will come? (n/t)</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257769560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Build it and they will come?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Build it and they will come ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Build it and they will come?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028990</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30033634</id>
	<title>Re:So...</title>
	<author>DarthVain</author>
	<datestamp>1257785580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Many are connected directly.</p><p>I was on several power station tours (Hydro, Solar, Wind) and it seems common that A) the technology is built elsewhere and shipped in (Denmark, California, etc...), and B) the company that built the technology also has remote access to monitor and has the power to make changes when problems occur.</p><p>When I saw several of these solutions, on computer, my first thought was, oh wee, its connected to the internet, what could possibly go wrong!</p><p>I am sure there is some tight security (or I certainly hope so anyway), but like anything, users being lazy etc... default passwords, security holes, etc...</p><p>Considering how vulnerable and tightly interwoven all our power infrastructure is in NA, you don't have to take down a 2GW nuke plant to initiate a catastrophic cascade effect. If someone knows what they are doing, and where the weaknesses are, strategically taking down a couple hundred megawatts say during peak time, may case some real trouble. I can only hope that the people that regulate have taken this problem seriously enough.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Many are connected directly.I was on several power station tours ( Hydro , Solar , Wind ) and it seems common that A ) the technology is built elsewhere and shipped in ( Denmark , California , etc... ) , and B ) the company that built the technology also has remote access to monitor and has the power to make changes when problems occur.When I saw several of these solutions , on computer , my first thought was , oh wee , its connected to the internet , what could possibly go wrong ! I am sure there is some tight security ( or I certainly hope so anyway ) , but like anything , users being lazy etc... default passwords , security holes , etc...Considering how vulnerable and tightly interwoven all our power infrastructure is in NA , you do n't have to take down a 2GW nuke plant to initiate a catastrophic cascade effect .
If someone knows what they are doing , and where the weaknesses are , strategically taking down a couple hundred megawatts say during peak time , may case some real trouble .
I can only hope that the people that regulate have taken this problem seriously enough .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many are connected directly.I was on several power station tours (Hydro, Solar, Wind) and it seems common that A) the technology is built elsewhere and shipped in (Denmark, California, etc...), and B) the company that built the technology also has remote access to monitor and has the power to make changes when problems occur.When I saw several of these solutions, on computer, my first thought was, oh wee, its connected to the internet, what could possibly go wrong!I am sure there is some tight security (or I certainly hope so anyway), but like anything, users being lazy etc... default passwords, security holes, etc...Considering how vulnerable and tightly interwoven all our power infrastructure is in NA, you don't have to take down a 2GW nuke plant to initiate a catastrophic cascade effect.
If someone knows what they are doing, and where the weaknesses are, strategically taking down a couple hundred megawatts say during peak time, may case some real trouble.
I can only hope that the people that regulate have taken this problem seriously enough.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027542</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028028</id>
	<title>goes good with popcorn</title>
	<author>Eil</author>
	<datestamp>1257695100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>'If I were an attacker and wanted to do strategic damage to the United States, I would either take the cold of winter or the heat of summer,' says McConnell, 'I would probably sack electric power on the US East Coast, maybe the West Coast and attempt to cause a cascading effect.'</p></div></blockquote><p>Oh yeah, well if <i>I</i> were an attacker, I would build a gravity weapon so powerful that it would pull the moon out of its orbit and crash it into the earth.</p><p>OR I would create a poison so potent that just a few drops of it in any lake would kill everyone within a 5-mile radius.</p><p>OR I would plant thermonuclear bombs in the capitals of the 10 largest cities in the U.S. and detonate them all at once.</p><p>See, Mike McConnell? It's easy to invent <a href="http://www.schneier.com/essay-087.html" title="schneier.com">terrorist movie plots</a> [schneier.com]. If they gave out awards for Most Creative Terrorist Strategies That Would Never Work, you all all of your three-letter agencies would win first prize every time.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>'If I were an attacker and wanted to do strategic damage to the United States , I would either take the cold of winter or the heat of summer, ' says McConnell , 'I would probably sack electric power on the US East Coast , maybe the West Coast and attempt to cause a cascading effect .
'Oh yeah , well if I were an attacker , I would build a gravity weapon so powerful that it would pull the moon out of its orbit and crash it into the earth.OR I would create a poison so potent that just a few drops of it in any lake would kill everyone within a 5-mile radius.OR I would plant thermonuclear bombs in the capitals of the 10 largest cities in the U.S. and detonate them all at once.See , Mike McConnell ?
It 's easy to invent terrorist movie plots [ schneier.com ] .
If they gave out awards for Most Creative Terrorist Strategies That Would Never Work , you all all of your three-letter agencies would win first prize every time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>'If I were an attacker and wanted to do strategic damage to the United States, I would either take the cold of winter or the heat of summer,' says McConnell, 'I would probably sack electric power on the US East Coast, maybe the West Coast and attempt to cause a cascading effect.
'Oh yeah, well if I were an attacker, I would build a gravity weapon so powerful that it would pull the moon out of its orbit and crash it into the earth.OR I would create a poison so potent that just a few drops of it in any lake would kill everyone within a 5-mile radius.OR I would plant thermonuclear bombs in the capitals of the 10 largest cities in the U.S. and detonate them all at once.See, Mike McConnell?
It's easy to invent terrorist movie plots [schneier.com].
If they gave out awards for Most Creative Terrorist Strategies That Would Never Work, you all all of your three-letter agencies would win first prize every time.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030384</id>
	<title>"Hackers?"</title>
	<author>oPless</author>
	<datestamp>1257762840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh wait<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... you mean *crackers*</p><p>Gotchya!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh wait ... you mean * crackers * Gotchya !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh wait ... you mean *crackers*Gotchya!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</id>
	<title>Good luck with that</title>
	<author>thenextstevejobs</author>
	<datestamp>1257686820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Probably impossible.</p><p>As we all should know by now, impenetrable security doesn't exist. What we should probably have is tighter backup power for essential services and places like hospitals, where local redundancy could help in the face of a remote 'hacker' type attack</p><p>Places where there is a lot of danger for people without electrical power don't need billions spent on the security of their power systems. They need redundancy, generators in their buildings that could be used to keep people alive, batteries, and common sense.</p><p>
Oh well, let's spend a bunch of money on fear like we always do.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Probably impossible.As we all should know by now , impenetrable security does n't exist .
What we should probably have is tighter backup power for essential services and places like hospitals , where local redundancy could help in the face of a remote 'hacker ' type attackPlaces where there is a lot of danger for people without electrical power do n't need billions spent on the security of their power systems .
They need redundancy , generators in their buildings that could be used to keep people alive , batteries , and common sense .
Oh well , let 's spend a bunch of money on fear like we always do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Probably impossible.As we all should know by now, impenetrable security doesn't exist.
What we should probably have is tighter backup power for essential services and places like hospitals, where local redundancy could help in the face of a remote 'hacker' type attackPlaces where there is a lot of danger for people without electrical power don't need billions spent on the security of their power systems.
They need redundancy, generators in their buildings that could be used to keep people alive, batteries, and common sense.
Oh well, let's spend a bunch of money on fear like we always do.
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028048</id>
	<title>Re:Internets...</title>
	<author>Eil</author>
	<datestamp>1257695340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I don't see why they can't just buy a phone line for each power station and link to central stations</p></div> </blockquote><p>Duh, hackers can hack in through phone lines! Don't you know anything???</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't see why they ca n't just buy a phone line for each power station and link to central stations Duh , hackers can hack in through phone lines !
Do n't you know anything ? ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't see why they can't just buy a phone line for each power station and link to central stations Duh, hackers can hack in through phone lines!
Don't you know anything??
?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026952</id>
	<title>Hit'em in their wallets</title>
	<author>Bananatree3</author>
	<datestamp>1257686940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>"<i>Congressman Jim Langevin says that US power companies need to be forced to deal with the issue after they told Congress they would take steps to defend their operations but did not follow up. <b>'They admit that they misled Congress. The private sector has different priorities than we do in providing security. Their bottom line is about profits...</b>"</i></p></div> </blockquote><p>Exactly right, this is a capitalist society, ran on making money. If they won't integrate safety systems to protect the system properly from hacker attacks, hit them in the wallet, hard. Pass sound regulation to force them to implement safeguards, require inspections/audits that they are done, not just take their BS word for it. If all they give you is hot air and no implementation, fine them millions of dollars, and on a regular basis if needbe til they implement it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Congressman Jim Langevin says that US power companies need to be forced to deal with the issue after they told Congress they would take steps to defend their operations but did not follow up .
'They admit that they misled Congress .
The private sector has different priorities than we do in providing security .
Their bottom line is about profits... " Exactly right , this is a capitalist society , ran on making money .
If they wo n't integrate safety systems to protect the system properly from hacker attacks , hit them in the wallet , hard .
Pass sound regulation to force them to implement safeguards , require inspections/audits that they are done , not just take their BS word for it .
If all they give you is hot air and no implementation , fine them millions of dollars , and on a regular basis if needbe til they implement it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Congressman Jim Langevin says that US power companies need to be forced to deal with the issue after they told Congress they would take steps to defend their operations but did not follow up.
'They admit that they misled Congress.
The private sector has different priorities than we do in providing security.
Their bottom line is about profits..." Exactly right, this is a capitalist society, ran on making money.
If they won't integrate safety systems to protect the system properly from hacker attacks, hit them in the wallet, hard.
Pass sound regulation to force them to implement safeguards, require inspections/audits that they are done, not just take their BS word for it.
If all they give you is hot air and no implementation, fine them millions of dollars, and on a regular basis if needbe til they implement it.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028536</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257699360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>OR, a fail-open system rather than a fail-closed one. Going dark should be the aberrant condition which the electrical system is built to avoid. The only way to make the lines go cold should be a physical break-down or manual and physical disconnect, not a control system malfunction or hijacking. Sure hackers gaining access to control systems will inevitably cause problems, but the system should be designed in such a way that if you take the high tech controls offline (on purpose or otherwise) the current will naturally flow.</p><p>Building the system with those kind of assumptions make it inherently resilient.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>OR , a fail-open system rather than a fail-closed one .
Going dark should be the aberrant condition which the electrical system is built to avoid .
The only way to make the lines go cold should be a physical break-down or manual and physical disconnect , not a control system malfunction or hijacking .
Sure hackers gaining access to control systems will inevitably cause problems , but the system should be designed in such a way that if you take the high tech controls offline ( on purpose or otherwise ) the current will naturally flow.Building the system with those kind of assumptions make it inherently resilient .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>OR, a fail-open system rather than a fail-closed one.
Going dark should be the aberrant condition which the electrical system is built to avoid.
The only way to make the lines go cold should be a physical break-down or manual and physical disconnect, not a control system malfunction or hijacking.
Sure hackers gaining access to control systems will inevitably cause problems, but the system should be designed in such a way that if you take the high tech controls offline (on purpose or otherwise) the current will naturally flow.Building the system with those kind of assumptions make it inherently resilient.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028058</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>minorproblem</author>
	<datestamp>1257695400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Most modern office towers have backup power systems.  Better to spend $10,000 on diesel or hydrogen than it is to send a workforce home for the day.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most modern office towers have backup power systems .
Better to spend $ 10,000 on diesel or hydrogen than it is to send a workforce home for the day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most modern office towers have backup power systems.
Better to spend $10,000 on diesel or hydrogen than it is to send a workforce home for the day.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30030334</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257761940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>From the OP  : "We need to change their motivation so that when see vulnerability like this, we can require them to fix it."</p><p>This is why public utilities should be just that, public, and operated for the public good, not private profit.<br>Then the motivation would be the default, not economic sanctions or penalty.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>From the OP : " We need to change their motivation so that when see vulnerability like this , we can require them to fix it .
" This is why public utilities should be just that , public , and operated for the public good , not private profit.Then the motivation would be the default , not economic sanctions or penalty .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From the OP  : "We need to change their motivation so that when see vulnerability like this, we can require them to fix it.
"This is why public utilities should be just that, public, and operated for the public good, not private profit.Then the motivation would be the default, not economic sanctions or penalty.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027474</id>
	<title>Re:Hit'em in their wallets</title>
	<author>inhuman\_4</author>
	<datestamp>1257690540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thats crazy talk. Here is the solution:</p><p>1) It's government regulation that is the problem. If the government would just loosen the regulations a little the power companies would be able to make more money. Then they could spend that money on other things like security, safety, and protecting the environment.</p><p>2) We should allow power companies to join the RIAA. Once hackers know they will face life imprisonment for copy right infringement, they will too scared to do anything. While we are at it, why not just give every industrial union (yes that what they are, corporate unions that hassle the government) the power to fuck over the average citizen.</p><p>3) As an added bonus, we can pass laws demanding to know what people have plugged into their wall sockets, you know<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..... to ahh<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...... watch for hackers! This of course only applies to peoples homes (and by people I mean non-rich people), applying this to businesses would make it harder for them to compete.</p><p>4) Profit!</p><p>Can I get my Republican kickbacks now?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thats crazy talk .
Here is the solution : 1 ) It 's government regulation that is the problem .
If the government would just loosen the regulations a little the power companies would be able to make more money .
Then they could spend that money on other things like security , safety , and protecting the environment.2 ) We should allow power companies to join the RIAA .
Once hackers know they will face life imprisonment for copy right infringement , they will too scared to do anything .
While we are at it , why not just give every industrial union ( yes that what they are , corporate unions that hassle the government ) the power to fuck over the average citizen.3 ) As an added bonus , we can pass laws demanding to know what people have plugged into their wall sockets , you know ..... to ahh ...... watch for hackers !
This of course only applies to peoples homes ( and by people I mean non-rich people ) , applying this to businesses would make it harder for them to compete.4 ) Profit ! Can I get my Republican kickbacks now ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thats crazy talk.
Here is the solution:1) It's government regulation that is the problem.
If the government would just loosen the regulations a little the power companies would be able to make more money.
Then they could spend that money on other things like security, safety, and protecting the environment.2) We should allow power companies to join the RIAA.
Once hackers know they will face life imprisonment for copy right infringement, they will too scared to do anything.
While we are at it, why not just give every industrial union (yes that what they are, corporate unions that hassle the government) the power to fuck over the average citizen.3) As an added bonus, we can pass laws demanding to know what people have plugged into their wall sockets, you know ..... to ahh ...... watch for hackers!
This of course only applies to peoples homes (and by people I mean non-rich people), applying this to businesses would make it harder for them to compete.4) Profit!Can I get my Republican kickbacks now?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30028068</id>
	<title>Part of it has to do with</title>
	<author>kilodelta</author>
	<datestamp>1257695460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>The SCADA systems. Some genius decided to write a TCP/IP stack for SCADA and then put an ethernet port on the damned things. And what did the utility companies do but hook em' up to an IP network. Not very smart.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The SCADA systems .
Some genius decided to write a TCP/IP stack for SCADA and then put an ethernet port on the damned things .
And what did the utility companies do but hook em ' up to an IP network .
Not very smart .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The SCADA systems.
Some genius decided to write a TCP/IP stack for SCADA and then put an ethernet port on the damned things.
And what did the utility companies do but hook em' up to an IP network.
Not very smart.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30036716</id>
	<title>Re:Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1257798120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>why the hell you connect these systems to Thee Internets ???</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>why the hell you connect these systems to Thee Internets ? ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>why the hell you connect these systems to Thee Internets ??
?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30034056</id>
	<title>Former military are persona non-grata to me</title>
	<author>e-scetic</author>
	<datestamp>1257787320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Former generals and admirals <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/us/20generals.html?pagewanted=all" title="nytimes.com">receive their talking points from the Pentagon and White House</a> [nytimes.com].   </p><p>
If you believe McConnell, you're a first class sucker of the message machine</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Former generals and admirals receive their talking points from the Pentagon and White House [ nytimes.com ] .
If you believe McConnell , you 're a first class sucker of the message machine</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Former generals and admirals receive their talking points from the Pentagon and White House [nytimes.com].
If you believe McConnell, you're a first class sucker of the message machine</sentencetext>
</comment>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_09_0012226_46</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027900
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</commentlist>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_09_0012226_16</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027900
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</commentlist>
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	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_09_0012226_2</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026922
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</commentlist>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_09_0012226_23</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026944
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30027542
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</commentlist>
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_09_0012226_74</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026952
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_09_0012226_22</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_11_09_0012226.30026944
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_11_09_0012226_73</id>
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