<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_10_18_2356226</id>
	<title>Student Loan Interest Rankles College Grads</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1255877580000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>theodp writes <i>"Like many recent college grads, Steven Lee finds himself unemployed in one of the roughest job markets in decades and saddled with a big pile of debt &mdash; he owes about $84,000 in student loans for undergrad and grad school. But what's really got Lee angry are <a href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/yourmoney/chi-tc-biz-ym-college-1018oct18,0,5582294.story">the high interest rates on his government-backed student loans</a>. 'The rate for a 30-year mortgage is around 5\%,' Lee said. 'Why should anyone have to pay 8.5\%? The government has bailed out homeowners. It's bailed out big businesses. Why can't it also help students?' Not only that, federal student loans are the only loans in the nation that are largely <a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/05/05/collinge">non-dischargeable in bankruptcy, have no statutes of limitations, and can't be refinanced after consolidation</a>, so Lee can forget about pulling a move out of the <a href="http://gothamist.com/2009/06/01/general\_motors\_files\_for\_bankruptcy.php">GM playbook</a>. And unlike <a href="http://www.smartmoney.com/personal-finance/taxes/taxes-on-vacation-homes-9562/">mortgages on million-dollar vacation homes</a>, student loans have very <a href="http://taxes.about.com/od/deductionscredits/qt/studentloanint.htm">limited tax deductability</a>. A spokeswoman for the Department of Education blamed Congress for the rates which she conceded 'may seem high today,' but suggested that students are a credit-unworthy lot who should thank their lucky stars that rates aren't 12\% or higher. Makes one long for the <a href="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/04/hillarys\_two\_percent\_college\_l.html">good-old-days of 3\% student loans</a>, doesn't it?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>theodp writes " Like many recent college grads , Steven Lee finds himself unemployed in one of the roughest job markets in decades and saddled with a big pile of debt    he owes about $ 84,000 in student loans for undergrad and grad school .
But what 's really got Lee angry are the high interest rates on his government-backed student loans .
'The rate for a 30-year mortgage is around 5 \ % , ' Lee said .
'Why should anyone have to pay 8.5 \ % ?
The government has bailed out homeowners .
It 's bailed out big businesses .
Why ca n't it also help students ?
' Not only that , federal student loans are the only loans in the nation that are largely non-dischargeable in bankruptcy , have no statutes of limitations , and ca n't be refinanced after consolidation , so Lee can forget about pulling a move out of the GM playbook .
And unlike mortgages on million-dollar vacation homes , student loans have very limited tax deductability .
A spokeswoman for the Department of Education blamed Congress for the rates which she conceded 'may seem high today, ' but suggested that students are a credit-unworthy lot who should thank their lucky stars that rates are n't 12 \ % or higher .
Makes one long for the good-old-days of 3 \ % student loans , does n't it ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>theodp writes "Like many recent college grads, Steven Lee finds himself unemployed in one of the roughest job markets in decades and saddled with a big pile of debt — he owes about $84,000 in student loans for undergrad and grad school.
But what's really got Lee angry are the high interest rates on his government-backed student loans.
'The rate for a 30-year mortgage is around 5\%,' Lee said.
'Why should anyone have to pay 8.5\%?
The government has bailed out homeowners.
It's bailed out big businesses.
Why can't it also help students?
' Not only that, federal student loans are the only loans in the nation that are largely non-dischargeable in bankruptcy, have no statutes of limitations, and can't be refinanced after consolidation, so Lee can forget about pulling a move out of the GM playbook.
And unlike mortgages on million-dollar vacation homes, student loans have very limited tax deductability.
A spokeswoman for the Department of Education blamed Congress for the rates which she conceded 'may seem high today,' but suggested that students are a credit-unworthy lot who should thank their lucky stars that rates aren't 12\% or higher.
Makes one long for the good-old-days of 3\% student loans, doesn't it?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790283</id>
	<title>As if...</title>
	<author>Rauq</author>
	<datestamp>1255889280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Kids needed another reason to work hard in high school. I realized freshman year in high school (4 years ago, seems like just yesterday though) that I wasn't going to be able to go to Rice without some help. My parents might have been able to pay UTexas or UHouston out of pocket but it wouldn't have been easy. So for every NHS meeting I didnt't want to go to, for every Saturday service hour I wanted to sleep through, and for every test I didn't want to study for, I did it anyway. Because my high school success = $$$. I actually didn't end up at Rice- I'm at Clemson, so private vs. out of state public (not a HUGE difference), I was a little more than prepared for the $20-30k a year that they're going to want me to cough up.

Guess what! There were people out there that wanted to throw money at me, a white male child of 2 college educated parents making over $100,000 a year! (about that paycheck vs tuition... there are additional circumstances) I got ~65\% of my tuition payed with scholarships THROUGH THE SCHOOL, an additional 15\% from other scholarships, and the rest was paid between my parents and a small loan I took out (a few grand a year, I've got educational savings still building up for that. Don't ask how it worked out to use savings to pay the loans, it just did).

Thought college was too expensive? Tell that to the kid that got a full ride for being almost as smart as myself AND poor.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Kids needed another reason to work hard in high school .
I realized freshman year in high school ( 4 years ago , seems like just yesterday though ) that I was n't going to be able to go to Rice without some help .
My parents might have been able to pay UTexas or UHouston out of pocket but it would n't have been easy .
So for every NHS meeting I didnt't want to go to , for every Saturday service hour I wanted to sleep through , and for every test I did n't want to study for , I did it anyway .
Because my high school success = $ $ $ .
I actually did n't end up at Rice- I 'm at Clemson , so private vs. out of state public ( not a HUGE difference ) , I was a little more than prepared for the $ 20-30k a year that they 're going to want me to cough up .
Guess what !
There were people out there that wanted to throw money at me , a white male child of 2 college educated parents making over $ 100,000 a year !
( about that paycheck vs tuition... there are additional circumstances ) I got ~ 65 \ % of my tuition payed with scholarships THROUGH THE SCHOOL , an additional 15 \ % from other scholarships , and the rest was paid between my parents and a small loan I took out ( a few grand a year , I 've got educational savings still building up for that .
Do n't ask how it worked out to use savings to pay the loans , it just did ) .
Thought college was too expensive ?
Tell that to the kid that got a full ride for being almost as smart as myself AND poor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Kids needed another reason to work hard in high school.
I realized freshman year in high school (4 years ago, seems like just yesterday though) that I wasn't going to be able to go to Rice without some help.
My parents might have been able to pay UTexas or UHouston out of pocket but it wouldn't have been easy.
So for every NHS meeting I didnt't want to go to, for every Saturday service hour I wanted to sleep through, and for every test I didn't want to study for, I did it anyway.
Because my high school success = $$$.
I actually didn't end up at Rice- I'm at Clemson, so private vs. out of state public (not a HUGE difference), I was a little more than prepared for the $20-30k a year that they're going to want me to cough up.
Guess what!
There were people out there that wanted to throw money at me, a white male child of 2 college educated parents making over $100,000 a year!
(about that paycheck vs tuition... there are additional circumstances) I got ~65\% of my tuition payed with scholarships THROUGH THE SCHOOL, an additional 15\% from other scholarships, and the rest was paid between my parents and a small loan I took out (a few grand a year, I've got educational savings still building up for that.
Don't ask how it worked out to use savings to pay the loans, it just did).
Thought college was too expensive?
Tell that to the kid that got a full ride for being almost as smart as myself AND poor.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29799135</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255942980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can argue the benefits all you want.  However, as a United States citizen I am guaranteed certain inalienable rights by the Constitution.  One of those being the right to be secure in my property.  An educated citizenry may benefit the society, by government has no right to demand that I pay for it.  You can call that selfish but it isn't.  It's freedom at its finest.  If I want education I save and pay for it.  If I want to have my children educated, I save and pay for it.  It's my choice.  I am in no way morally obligated to pay for you or yours.  If I choose to, it's my choice.</p><p>Public education is immoral since it seeks to uphold itself based on the violation of the citizen's right to property.  Does this mean I hate education?  Absolutely not.  Take responsibility for yourself and stop looking to others to do it for you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You can argue the benefits all you want .
However , as a United States citizen I am guaranteed certain inalienable rights by the Constitution .
One of those being the right to be secure in my property .
An educated citizenry may benefit the society , by government has no right to demand that I pay for it .
You can call that selfish but it is n't .
It 's freedom at its finest .
If I want education I save and pay for it .
If I want to have my children educated , I save and pay for it .
It 's my choice .
I am in no way morally obligated to pay for you or yours .
If I choose to , it 's my choice.Public education is immoral since it seeks to uphold itself based on the violation of the citizen 's right to property .
Does this mean I hate education ?
Absolutely not .
Take responsibility for yourself and stop looking to others to do it for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can argue the benefits all you want.
However, as a United States citizen I am guaranteed certain inalienable rights by the Constitution.
One of those being the right to be secure in my property.
An educated citizenry may benefit the society, by government has no right to demand that I pay for it.
You can call that selfish but it isn't.
It's freedom at its finest.
If I want education I save and pay for it.
If I want to have my children educated, I save and pay for it.
It's my choice.
I am in no way morally obligated to pay for you or yours.
If I choose to, it's my choice.Public education is immoral since it seeks to uphold itself based on the violation of the citizen's right to property.
Does this mean I hate education?
Absolutely not.
Take responsibility for yourself and stop looking to others to do it for you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789155</id>
	<title>Experience from academia</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255881480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I worked at a mid size private university in the midwest and tuition rates were astronomical ($30k for undergrad).  I think the loans are one thing but tuition rates are a larger issue.  I wondered how they stayed in business especially these days.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I worked at a mid size private university in the midwest and tuition rates were astronomical ( $ 30k for undergrad ) .
I think the loans are one thing but tuition rates are a larger issue .
I wondered how they stayed in business especially these days .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I worked at a mid size private university in the midwest and tuition rates were astronomical ($30k for undergrad).
I think the loans are one thing but tuition rates are a larger issue.
I wondered how they stayed in business especially these days.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789297</id>
	<title>not the real problem</title>
	<author>wizardforce</author>
	<datestamp>1255882380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem isn't finding a new fangled way for college student to be able to pay the enormous costs of college, it is to find ways to educate them more cheaply tha nwe do now.  Online learning, competition, utilisation of open source textbooks... Be creative.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is n't finding a new fangled way for college student to be able to pay the enormous costs of college , it is to find ways to educate them more cheaply tha nwe do now .
Online learning , competition , utilisation of open source textbooks... Be creative .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem isn't finding a new fangled way for college student to be able to pay the enormous costs of college, it is to find ways to educate them more cheaply tha nwe do now.
Online learning, competition, utilisation of open source textbooks... Be creative.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790045</id>
	<title>Re:The worthlessness of "education"</title>
	<author>martin-boundary</author>
	<datestamp>1255887360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>  Its becoming increasingly obvious that education is more or less worthless
  for the -vast- majority of occupations.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
I have to disagree. The problem with America is the opposite - not enough education. That's why as a nation you guys voted for Bush *twice*, and have crazy policies that favor the rich and put millions in prisons.
</p><p>
A good educaton is not primarily about getting a good job, it's about having a toolkit for living in society, and being able to improve your circumstances if necessary. Education is empowerment, which is precisely what the top 1\% in America does not want the population to be.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Its becoming increasingly obvious that education is more or less worthless for the -vast- majority of occupations .
I have to disagree .
The problem with America is the opposite - not enough education .
That 's why as a nation you guys voted for Bush * twice * , and have crazy policies that favor the rich and put millions in prisons .
A good educaton is not primarily about getting a good job , it 's about having a toolkit for living in society , and being able to improve your circumstances if necessary .
Education is empowerment , which is precisely what the top 1 \ % in America does not want the population to be .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>  Its becoming increasingly obvious that education is more or less worthless
  for the -vast- majority of occupations.
I have to disagree.
The problem with America is the opposite - not enough education.
That's why as a nation you guys voted for Bush *twice*, and have crazy policies that favor the rich and put millions in prisons.
A good educaton is not primarily about getting a good job, it's about having a toolkit for living in society, and being able to improve your circumstances if necessary.
Education is empowerment, which is precisely what the top 1\% in America does not want the population to be.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789313</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29796859</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>Nathan Boley</author>
	<datestamp>1255978260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It seems that anyone under the age of 45 is trying to find out a way to blame someone else for decisions they made or didn't make.</p></div><p>
And it seems like everyone over 45 is pretending that education wasn't free when they were 20 ( at least in CA where I go to school... )
<br> <br>
20 year olds are just trying to get by in the world they were born in - and like it or not college is a part of that in a way that it wasnt 30 years ago.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It seems that anyone under the age of 45 is trying to find out a way to blame someone else for decisions they made or did n't make .
And it seems like everyone over 45 is pretending that education was n't free when they were 20 ( at least in CA where I go to school... ) 20 year olds are just trying to get by in the world they were born in - and like it or not college is a part of that in a way that it wasnt 30 years ago .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It seems that anyone under the age of 45 is trying to find out a way to blame someone else for decisions they made or didn't make.
And it seems like everyone over 45 is pretending that education wasn't free when they were 20 ( at least in CA where I go to school... )
 
20 year olds are just trying to get by in the world they were born in - and like it or not college is a part of that in a way that it wasnt 30 years ago.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789631</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29797637</id>
	<title>Were you forced to take their money?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255981200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> I hate to go that route, but I mean didn't you know the interest rate when you took the loans?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I hate to go that route , but I mean did n't you know the interest rate when you took the loans ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I hate to go that route, but I mean didn't you know the interest rate when you took the loans?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793165</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>esme</author>
	<datestamp>1255962900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I am all in favor of helping out people who don't have healthcare, but in order for those people to have healthcare, someone else is going to get screwed.</p></div></blockquote><p>Not necessarily.  Right now, the US spends a lot more money per person on healthcare that most countries that have universal coverage.  That's mostly because uninsured people wait until they're very sick or injured and then go to an emergency room.  They get treated, and the hospital can't collect, so everybody else picks up the tab.  So we're already getting screwed right now.</p><p>It would be much cheaper to just pay for basic doctor visits for everyone, which would prevent a lot of expensive procedures from ever happening.  Our taxes might be a little higher to pay for this (different people have different ideas about how to pay for it, some want to tax rich people, or very expensive health insurance benefits, etc.).  But our health insurance will be cheaper, so it'll be about even.</p><p>For education, I don't think an education at a top-50 school regardless of the price is a basic right like healthcare.  There are lots of good schools that are still reasonably-priced.  I think there are a lot of things we could do to make college more affordable, and I'm all in favor of that, but there are affordable options right now.</p><p>I personally think it would be great for state schools to be free in return for service (military, public service, etc.) or for a higher tax rate (which wouldn't be that much different from having student loans to pay off).</p><p>-Esme</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am all in favor of helping out people who do n't have healthcare , but in order for those people to have healthcare , someone else is going to get screwed.Not necessarily .
Right now , the US spends a lot more money per person on healthcare that most countries that have universal coverage .
That 's mostly because uninsured people wait until they 're very sick or injured and then go to an emergency room .
They get treated , and the hospital ca n't collect , so everybody else picks up the tab .
So we 're already getting screwed right now.It would be much cheaper to just pay for basic doctor visits for everyone , which would prevent a lot of expensive procedures from ever happening .
Our taxes might be a little higher to pay for this ( different people have different ideas about how to pay for it , some want to tax rich people , or very expensive health insurance benefits , etc. ) .
But our health insurance will be cheaper , so it 'll be about even.For education , I do n't think an education at a top-50 school regardless of the price is a basic right like healthcare .
There are lots of good schools that are still reasonably-priced .
I think there are a lot of things we could do to make college more affordable , and I 'm all in favor of that , but there are affordable options right now.I personally think it would be great for state schools to be free in return for service ( military , public service , etc .
) or for a higher tax rate ( which would n't be that much different from having student loans to pay off ) .-Esme</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am all in favor of helping out people who don't have healthcare, but in order for those people to have healthcare, someone else is going to get screwed.Not necessarily.
Right now, the US spends a lot more money per person on healthcare that most countries that have universal coverage.
That's mostly because uninsured people wait until they're very sick or injured and then go to an emergency room.
They get treated, and the hospital can't collect, so everybody else picks up the tab.
So we're already getting screwed right now.It would be much cheaper to just pay for basic doctor visits for everyone, which would prevent a lot of expensive procedures from ever happening.
Our taxes might be a little higher to pay for this (different people have different ideas about how to pay for it, some want to tax rich people, or very expensive health insurance benefits, etc.).
But our health insurance will be cheaper, so it'll be about even.For education, I don't think an education at a top-50 school regardless of the price is a basic right like healthcare.
There are lots of good schools that are still reasonably-priced.
I think there are a lot of things we could do to make college more affordable, and I'm all in favor of that, but there are affordable options right now.I personally think it would be great for state schools to be free in return for service (military, public service, etc.
) or for a higher tax rate (which wouldn't be that much different from having student loans to pay off).-Esme
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790247</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29801369</id>
	<title>Re:Restating the problem</title>
	<author>TheoMurpse</author>
	<datestamp>1255952940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, to be fair, she <b>did</b> waste a year on the dual-degree program when the JD makes businesses think twice about hiring a "flight risk" who could run to a law firm, and an MBA signals to many (most?) excellent firms that she's not committed to law.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , to be fair , she did waste a year on the dual-degree program when the JD makes businesses think twice about hiring a " flight risk " who could run to a law firm , and an MBA signals to many ( most ?
) excellent firms that she 's not committed to law .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, to be fair, she did waste a year on the dual-degree program when the JD makes businesses think twice about hiring a "flight risk" who could run to a law firm, and an MBA signals to many (most?
) excellent firms that she's not committed to law.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789305</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29797413</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>jafac</author>
	<datestamp>1255980240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First off - I'm a government contractor - and hell no, none of us believe that the government is an unending source of money. I've worked in the private sector too; (spent my first 15 years there) - and I'd say they're similar in this regard; once a company gets its foot in the door, they've basically got it made.  In the private sector, the key to this kind of "infinite teat" is OEM and reseller contracts.  In the public sector though, large contractors do really have to jump through a LOT of hoops to gain that kind of reliable revenue stream.</p><p>Especially ask folks who work for Boeing or Lockheed.  This industry has a very high rate of employee relocation. Workers may, in very rare cases, stay in one location for 5-10 years. Then that contract runs out, and they're either laid off or flushed to another location, where there's work.  These companies bend over backwards to win those contracts, under intense scrutiny - meeting stringent requirements by both their customer, and public watchdogs.  It's not uncommon for these companies to spend millions in proposals, and IR&amp;D, just to win such contracts.  (in some cases, like jet fighters, for example, it's tens of millions).</p><p>Second:  when I was in the public sector, my employer bought another software company, who was selling a product for $199, and doing terribly.  We did some minor rebranding on that product, some VERY minor integration with other products we produced (more token changes than actual integration; clever customers could have easily done it) - and we changed the price to $1999, on the EXACT SAME (internal) justification, that customers would perceive that a $1999 product would be a "serious enterprise solution" rather than a SB/HB product.  And sales of this product tripled in the space of one quarter.  Raising price to increase "perceived value" is an incredibly cynical tactic - one that goes against the basic tenets of Free Market Capitalism.  Unfortunately, it works VERY well, in reality.  This happens when the consumer is just plain fucking stupid, and won't do basic research on their product - or when the consumer values certain facets of a product besides cost-performance-ratio.  This is absolutely the case with schools whose main appeal is a good football team.  Of course, you go out into the job market, and in a lot of cases, even if you're a complete knob, if you can B.S. your interviewer with memories of their partying college years, rooting for your football team, chances are pretty good you'll get the job.  So I suppose, in a business world where B.S. is more valued than actual job skills or knowledge, an arbitrarily high price-tag (exclusivity), and a good football team are probably better indicators of value for your tuition dollar than a good academic program.  Sad to say so - but it's largely true.  At least in the US.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First off - I 'm a government contractor - and hell no , none of us believe that the government is an unending source of money .
I 've worked in the private sector too ; ( spent my first 15 years there ) - and I 'd say they 're similar in this regard ; once a company gets its foot in the door , they 've basically got it made .
In the private sector , the key to this kind of " infinite teat " is OEM and reseller contracts .
In the public sector though , large contractors do really have to jump through a LOT of hoops to gain that kind of reliable revenue stream.Especially ask folks who work for Boeing or Lockheed .
This industry has a very high rate of employee relocation .
Workers may , in very rare cases , stay in one location for 5-10 years .
Then that contract runs out , and they 're either laid off or flushed to another location , where there 's work .
These companies bend over backwards to win those contracts , under intense scrutiny - meeting stringent requirements by both their customer , and public watchdogs .
It 's not uncommon for these companies to spend millions in proposals , and IR&amp;D , just to win such contracts .
( in some cases , like jet fighters , for example , it 's tens of millions ) .Second : when I was in the public sector , my employer bought another software company , who was selling a product for $ 199 , and doing terribly .
We did some minor rebranding on that product , some VERY minor integration with other products we produced ( more token changes than actual integration ; clever customers could have easily done it ) - and we changed the price to $ 1999 , on the EXACT SAME ( internal ) justification , that customers would perceive that a $ 1999 product would be a " serious enterprise solution " rather than a SB/HB product .
And sales of this product tripled in the space of one quarter .
Raising price to increase " perceived value " is an incredibly cynical tactic - one that goes against the basic tenets of Free Market Capitalism .
Unfortunately , it works VERY well , in reality .
This happens when the consumer is just plain fucking stupid , and wo n't do basic research on their product - or when the consumer values certain facets of a product besides cost-performance-ratio .
This is absolutely the case with schools whose main appeal is a good football team .
Of course , you go out into the job market , and in a lot of cases , even if you 're a complete knob , if you can B.S .
your interviewer with memories of their partying college years , rooting for your football team , chances are pretty good you 'll get the job .
So I suppose , in a business world where B.S .
is more valued than actual job skills or knowledge , an arbitrarily high price-tag ( exclusivity ) , and a good football team are probably better indicators of value for your tuition dollar than a good academic program .
Sad to say so - but it 's largely true .
At least in the US .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First off - I'm a government contractor - and hell no, none of us believe that the government is an unending source of money.
I've worked in the private sector too; (spent my first 15 years there) - and I'd say they're similar in this regard; once a company gets its foot in the door, they've basically got it made.
In the private sector, the key to this kind of "infinite teat" is OEM and reseller contracts.
In the public sector though, large contractors do really have to jump through a LOT of hoops to gain that kind of reliable revenue stream.Especially ask folks who work for Boeing or Lockheed.
This industry has a very high rate of employee relocation.
Workers may, in very rare cases, stay in one location for 5-10 years.
Then that contract runs out, and they're either laid off or flushed to another location, where there's work.
These companies bend over backwards to win those contracts, under intense scrutiny - meeting stringent requirements by both their customer, and public watchdogs.
It's not uncommon for these companies to spend millions in proposals, and IR&amp;D, just to win such contracts.
(in some cases, like jet fighters, for example, it's tens of millions).Second:  when I was in the public sector, my employer bought another software company, who was selling a product for $199, and doing terribly.
We did some minor rebranding on that product, some VERY minor integration with other products we produced (more token changes than actual integration; clever customers could have easily done it) - and we changed the price to $1999, on the EXACT SAME (internal) justification, that customers would perceive that a $1999 product would be a "serious enterprise solution" rather than a SB/HB product.
And sales of this product tripled in the space of one quarter.
Raising price to increase "perceived value" is an incredibly cynical tactic - one that goes against the basic tenets of Free Market Capitalism.
Unfortunately, it works VERY well, in reality.
This happens when the consumer is just plain fucking stupid, and won't do basic research on their product - or when the consumer values certain facets of a product besides cost-performance-ratio.
This is absolutely the case with schools whose main appeal is a good football team.
Of course, you go out into the job market, and in a lot of cases, even if you're a complete knob, if you can B.S.
your interviewer with memories of their partying college years, rooting for your football team, chances are pretty good you'll get the job.
So I suppose, in a business world where B.S.
is more valued than actual job skills or knowledge, an arbitrarily high price-tag (exclusivity), and a good football team are probably better indicators of value for your tuition dollar than a good academic program.
Sad to say so - but it's largely true.
At least in the US.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789845</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794385</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255968180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are an idiot who finished paying for school and is mad at the thought that someone else could get what you got for free. = P</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are an idiot who finished paying for school and is mad at the thought that someone else could get what you got for free .
= P</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are an idiot who finished paying for school and is mad at the thought that someone else could get what you got for free.
= P</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790735</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789863</id>
	<title>Pissed at the bail-outs</title>
	<author>mcrbids</author>
	<datestamp>1255886160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Me, I'm PISSED at the bail-outs. We've done stupid idiotic things in order to financially support companies that have done stupid idiotic things, essentially giving them license to do more stupid, idiotic things. And we, lowly, powerless tax-payers are going to foot the bill.</p><p>"Stimulous money" should go to things that create wealth: Science exploration, improving education, infrastructure (roads, powerlines, maybe the "smart grid") pure research, space exploration. These are things that create wealth and set us up (as a country) for the next big wave of wealth. But instead, we prop up companies that are "too big to fail" who do stupid things like borrow money to buy derivatives that were created from borrowed money. A multi-trillion dollar industry created out of thin air and lots of pencil-pushing.</p><p>Meanwhile, our roads are clogged and crowded, our power grid is ancient and increasingly taxed/unstable by the more volatile alternative fuels being used to power it, and our schools lag so far behind that some are even considering teaching creation as "science".</p><p>Meanwhile, we squander our wealth with wild abandon, killing Iraqis and Afghans, spending a TRILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR just to send in planes and bombs.</p><p>Hey, I have a better idea. Let's take just 1\% of that trillion dollars per year, and use it to feed EVERY SINGLE !@## STARVING KID THE WORLD OVER. Yes, that's all it would take. A Billion dollars per year could by a handful of rice, corn, or wheat to put into the hands of every single starving kid in the world. <b>Can you imagine just how much goodwill this would cause?</b> We'd be hailed the world over as harbingers of peace.</p><p>But, instead, we send the bombs and drone planes and guns, we violate international treaties by torturing people who haven't been accused of any crime, and do our damnedest to repeat the mistakes the Russians made when they invaded Afghanistan and spent their status as a world power trying to bring order to the same country we have so far failed completely to do.</p><p>Just !@#@ing stupid, and it's me, the smart, hardworking, disappearing upper middle class that gets to pay the !@#$ing bill.</p><p>Yes. I'm pissed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Me , I 'm PISSED at the bail-outs .
We 've done stupid idiotic things in order to financially support companies that have done stupid idiotic things , essentially giving them license to do more stupid , idiotic things .
And we , lowly , powerless tax-payers are going to foot the bill .
" Stimulous money " should go to things that create wealth : Science exploration , improving education , infrastructure ( roads , powerlines , maybe the " smart grid " ) pure research , space exploration .
These are things that create wealth and set us up ( as a country ) for the next big wave of wealth .
But instead , we prop up companies that are " too big to fail " who do stupid things like borrow money to buy derivatives that were created from borrowed money .
A multi-trillion dollar industry created out of thin air and lots of pencil-pushing.Meanwhile , our roads are clogged and crowded , our power grid is ancient and increasingly taxed/unstable by the more volatile alternative fuels being used to power it , and our schools lag so far behind that some are even considering teaching creation as " science " .Meanwhile , we squander our wealth with wild abandon , killing Iraqis and Afghans , spending a TRILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR just to send in planes and bombs.Hey , I have a better idea .
Let 's take just 1 \ % of that trillion dollars per year , and use it to feed EVERY SINGLE !
@ # # STARVING KID THE WORLD OVER .
Yes , that 's all it would take .
A Billion dollars per year could by a handful of rice , corn , or wheat to put into the hands of every single starving kid in the world .
Can you imagine just how much goodwill this would cause ?
We 'd be hailed the world over as harbingers of peace.But , instead , we send the bombs and drone planes and guns , we violate international treaties by torturing people who have n't been accused of any crime , and do our damnedest to repeat the mistakes the Russians made when they invaded Afghanistan and spent their status as a world power trying to bring order to the same country we have so far failed completely to do.Just !
@ # @ ing stupid , and it 's me , the smart , hardworking , disappearing upper middle class that gets to pay the !
@ # $ ing bill.Yes .
I 'm pissed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Me, I'm PISSED at the bail-outs.
We've done stupid idiotic things in order to financially support companies that have done stupid idiotic things, essentially giving them license to do more stupid, idiotic things.
And we, lowly, powerless tax-payers are going to foot the bill.
"Stimulous money" should go to things that create wealth: Science exploration, improving education, infrastructure (roads, powerlines, maybe the "smart grid") pure research, space exploration.
These are things that create wealth and set us up (as a country) for the next big wave of wealth.
But instead, we prop up companies that are "too big to fail" who do stupid things like borrow money to buy derivatives that were created from borrowed money.
A multi-trillion dollar industry created out of thin air and lots of pencil-pushing.Meanwhile, our roads are clogged and crowded, our power grid is ancient and increasingly taxed/unstable by the more volatile alternative fuels being used to power it, and our schools lag so far behind that some are even considering teaching creation as "science".Meanwhile, we squander our wealth with wild abandon, killing Iraqis and Afghans, spending a TRILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR just to send in planes and bombs.Hey, I have a better idea.
Let's take just 1\% of that trillion dollars per year, and use it to feed EVERY SINGLE !
@## STARVING KID THE WORLD OVER.
Yes, that's all it would take.
A Billion dollars per year could by a handful of rice, corn, or wheat to put into the hands of every single starving kid in the world.
Can you imagine just how much goodwill this would cause?
We'd be hailed the world over as harbingers of peace.But, instead, we send the bombs and drone planes and guns, we violate international treaties by torturing people who haven't been accused of any crime, and do our damnedest to repeat the mistakes the Russians made when they invaded Afghanistan and spent their status as a world power trying to bring order to the same country we have so far failed completely to do.Just !
@#@ing stupid, and it's me, the smart, hardworking, disappearing upper middle class that gets to pay the !
@#$ing bill.Yes.
I'm pissed.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791479</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255948200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Free education?  Excellent!</p><p>I'm off to earn fifteen PhDs, now.</p><p>What, actually get a job?  No way, you're paying for my room and board.  Forever.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Free education ?
Excellent ! I 'm off to earn fifteen PhDs , now.What , actually get a job ?
No way , you 're paying for my room and board .
Forever .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Free education?
Excellent!I'm off to earn fifteen PhDs, now.What, actually get a job?
No way, you're paying for my room and board.
Forever.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790275</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>jwarnick</author>
	<datestamp>1255889220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The rise in tuition rates are the big issue.  Without gov't sponsored loans, colleges wouldn't have as many customers who could pay the bills.  The loans allow college prices to rise much faster than general inflation.
<br>
<a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&amp;sid=a.VIge7LL0e0&amp;refer=us" title="bloomberg.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&amp;sid=a.VIge7LL0e0&amp;refer=us</a> [bloomberg.com]
College Tuition Rises Faster Than Inflation Yet Again
"Costs rose 5.9 percent this year at private four-year colleges in the U.S., outpacing the biggest gain in inflation in 17 years and increasing the demand for financial aid."
<br>
The entire loan program is riddled with fraudulent activity including payoffs and kickbacks for the schools, school administrators, and alumni groups.  This fraud is real, as detailed in a hundred page sealed indictment against some of the lenders for "defrauding the United States government".
<a href="http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Sealed\_complaint\_against\_JP\_Morgan\_Chase,\_Citigroup\_and\_Nelnet\_for\_defrauding\_the\_United\_States\_government,\_19\_May\_2008" title="wikileaks.org" rel="nofollow">http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Sealed\_complaint\_against\_JP\_Morgan\_Chase,\_Citigroup\_and\_Nelnet\_for\_defrauding\_the\_United\_States\_government,\_19\_May\_2008</a> [wikileaks.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>The rise in tuition rates are the big issue .
Without gov't sponsored loans , colleges would n't have as many customers who could pay the bills .
The loans allow college prices to rise much faster than general inflation .
http : //www.bloomberg.com/apps/news ? pid = 20601103&amp;sid = a.VIge7LL0e0&amp;refer = us [ bloomberg.com ] College Tuition Rises Faster Than Inflation Yet Again " Costs rose 5.9 percent this year at private four-year colleges in the U.S. , outpacing the biggest gain in inflation in 17 years and increasing the demand for financial aid .
" The entire loan program is riddled with fraudulent activity including payoffs and kickbacks for the schools , school administrators , and alumni groups .
This fraud is real , as detailed in a hundred page sealed indictment against some of the lenders for " defrauding the United States government " .
http : //wikileaks.org/wiki/Sealed \ _complaint \ _against \ _JP \ _Morgan \ _Chase , \ _Citigroup \ _and \ _Nelnet \ _for \ _defrauding \ _the \ _United \ _States \ _government , \ _19 \ _May \ _2008 [ wikileaks.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The rise in tuition rates are the big issue.
Without gov't sponsored loans, colleges wouldn't have as many customers who could pay the bills.
The loans allow college prices to rise much faster than general inflation.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&amp;sid=a.VIge7LL0e0&amp;refer=us [bloomberg.com]
College Tuition Rises Faster Than Inflation Yet Again
"Costs rose 5.9 percent this year at private four-year colleges in the U.S., outpacing the biggest gain in inflation in 17 years and increasing the demand for financial aid.
"

The entire loan program is riddled with fraudulent activity including payoffs and kickbacks for the schools, school administrators, and alumni groups.
This fraud is real, as detailed in a hundred page sealed indictment against some of the lenders for "defrauding the United States government".
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Sealed\_complaint\_against\_JP\_Morgan\_Chase,\_Citigroup\_and\_Nelnet\_for\_defrauding\_the\_United\_States\_government,\_19\_May\_2008 [wikileaks.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789155</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790145</id>
	<title>Re:Pissed at the bail-outs</title>
	<author>Stiletto</author>
	<datestamp>1255888200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Hey, I have a better idea. Let's take just 1\% of that trillion dollars per year, and use it to feed EVERY SINGLE !@## STARVING KID THE WORLD OVER. Yes, that's all it would take. A Billion dollars per year could by a handful of rice, corn, or wheat to put into the hands of every single starving kid in the world.</i></p><p>Ever think about what effect free food has on the target country's local agriculture economy?  I'll give you a hint: Local farmers have to start competing with free.  The answer isn't dumping free food onto people--it's investing in infrastructure so that functional and stable markets can develop.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hey , I have a better idea .
Let 's take just 1 \ % of that trillion dollars per year , and use it to feed EVERY SINGLE !
@ # # STARVING KID THE WORLD OVER .
Yes , that 's all it would take .
A Billion dollars per year could by a handful of rice , corn , or wheat to put into the hands of every single starving kid in the world.Ever think about what effect free food has on the target country 's local agriculture economy ?
I 'll give you a hint : Local farmers have to start competing with free .
The answer is n't dumping free food onto people--it 's investing in infrastructure so that functional and stable markets can develop .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hey, I have a better idea.
Let's take just 1\% of that trillion dollars per year, and use it to feed EVERY SINGLE !
@## STARVING KID THE WORLD OVER.
Yes, that's all it would take.
A Billion dollars per year could by a handful of rice, corn, or wheat to put into the hands of every single starving kid in the world.Ever think about what effect free food has on the target country's local agriculture economy?
I'll give you a hint: Local farmers have to start competing with free.
The answer isn't dumping free food onto people--it's investing in infrastructure so that functional and stable markets can develop.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789863</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791223</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>XDirtypunkX</author>
	<datestamp>1255944600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Next time you need medical or dental care, visit the guy who does it out of the back of his panel van. I'm sure his self learned knowledge of health care is as top notch as his hygiene methods.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Next time you need medical or dental care , visit the guy who does it out of the back of his panel van .
I 'm sure his self learned knowledge of health care is as top notch as his hygiene methods .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Next time you need medical or dental care, visit the guy who does it out of the back of his panel van.
I'm sure his self learned knowledge of health care is as top notch as his hygiene methods.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789597</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789665</id>
	<title>Hey, USA</title>
	<author>Korbeau</author>
	<datestamp>1255884720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The rest of the world is tired or hearing about your health-care issues.  Please don't start with education fees!</p><p>Hint: most modern civilizations have free health-care + free education.</p><p>Another hint: the Red Dragon is awakening while you eat Doritos.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The rest of the world is tired or hearing about your health-care issues .
Please do n't start with education fees ! Hint : most modern civilizations have free health-care + free education.Another hint : the Red Dragon is awakening while you eat Doritos .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The rest of the world is tired or hearing about your health-care issues.
Please don't start with education fees!Hint: most modern civilizations have free health-care + free education.Another hint: the Red Dragon is awakening while you eat Doritos.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793123</id>
	<title>Re:Pissed at the bail-outs</title>
	<author>DaveV1.0</author>
	<datestamp>1255962660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are just fucking stupid if you think they are spending a trillion dollars a year on Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. How you got modded "Insightful" is beyond me because you dont' know what you are talking about. The total cost of the wars to date is less than 1 trillion in total.</p><p>You can't be "the smart, hardworking, disappearing upper middle class" because smart people actually research there points BEFORE spouting off and proving that they are ignorant.</p><p>But, you want to know what will cost a trillion dollars per year? The healthcare bills being put together in Congress.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are just fucking stupid if you think they are spending a trillion dollars a year on Iraq , Afghanistan , etc .
How you got modded " Insightful " is beyond me because you dont ' know what you are talking about .
The total cost of the wars to date is less than 1 trillion in total.You ca n't be " the smart , hardworking , disappearing upper middle class " because smart people actually research there points BEFORE spouting off and proving that they are ignorant.But , you want to know what will cost a trillion dollars per year ?
The healthcare bills being put together in Congress .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are just fucking stupid if you think they are spending a trillion dollars a year on Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.
How you got modded "Insightful" is beyond me because you dont' know what you are talking about.
The total cost of the wars to date is less than 1 trillion in total.You can't be "the smart, hardworking, disappearing upper middle class" because smart people actually research there points BEFORE spouting off and proving that they are ignorant.But, you want to know what will cost a trillion dollars per year?
The healthcare bills being put together in Congress.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789863</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795073</id>
	<title>Re:Pissed at the bail-outs</title>
	<author>commodoresloat</author>
	<datestamp>1255971360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>because smart people actually research there points BEFORE spouting off and proving that they are ignorant.</p></div><p>But apparently they don't research their spelling until AFTER.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>because smart people actually research there points BEFORE spouting off and proving that they are ignorant.But apparently they do n't research their spelling until AFTER .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>because smart people actually research there points BEFORE spouting off and proving that they are ignorant.But apparently they don't research their spelling until AFTER.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793123</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790733</id>
	<title>Re:Agreed</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255893600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I'll be graduating next summer with a Masters in IT Management. [...]   The loans are government backed, they should be no interest.</p></div><p>Thanks for showing the world how useless your "education" is. Try taking some basic finance course or reading up what "future value" and "net present value" means. You might then understand why even "zero risk" loans should still charge interest.</p><p>Please also tell us which U you attended so we know whom to avoid when hiring.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll be graduating next summer with a Masters in IT Management .
[ ... ] The loans are government backed , they should be no interest.Thanks for showing the world how useless your " education " is .
Try taking some basic finance course or reading up what " future value " and " net present value " means .
You might then understand why even " zero risk " loans should still charge interest.Please also tell us which U you attended so we know whom to avoid when hiring .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll be graduating next summer with a Masters in IT Management.
[...]   The loans are government backed, they should be no interest.Thanks for showing the world how useless your "education" is.
Try taking some basic finance course or reading up what "future value" and "net present value" means.
You might then understand why even "zero risk" loans should still charge interest.Please also tell us which U you attended so we know whom to avoid when hiring.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789357</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795311</id>
	<title>I was not money wise.  Please help me Obi-Wan.</title>
	<author>nortcele</author>
	<datestamp>1255972200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Unaffordable student loan.  Unaffordable mortgage.  There's no difference.  There are kids that work and save money as much as possible before college, and work their tails off while in college.  Where's their reward for responsible planning and being frugal?  It's a simple concept: If you can't afford it, don't buy it.   Those that take the high risk route or don't plan effectively should not be bailed out when things come crashing down.  Call me a hardass, but I'm having a difficult time getting a tear in my eye to form.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unaffordable student loan .
Unaffordable mortgage .
There 's no difference .
There are kids that work and save money as much as possible before college , and work their tails off while in college .
Where 's their reward for responsible planning and being frugal ?
It 's a simple concept : If you ca n't afford it , do n't buy it .
Those that take the high risk route or do n't plan effectively should not be bailed out when things come crashing down .
Call me a hardass , but I 'm having a difficult time getting a tear in my eye to form .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unaffordable student loan.
Unaffordable mortgage.
There's no difference.
There are kids that work and save money as much as possible before college, and work their tails off while in college.
Where's their reward for responsible planning and being frugal?
It's a simple concept: If you can't afford it, don't buy it.
Those that take the high risk route or don't plan effectively should not be bailed out when things come crashing down.
Call me a hardass, but I'm having a difficult time getting a tear in my eye to form.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791041</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>darkwing\_bmf</author>
	<datestamp>1255983960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A degree is required for most professional careers as an employee. Of course, there are other ways to make a living. Some people without degrees start their own companies because no one else will hire them. Most fail but some are talented enough and successful enough that college graduates end up working for them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A degree is required for most professional careers as an employee .
Of course , there are other ways to make a living .
Some people without degrees start their own companies because no one else will hire them .
Most fail but some are talented enough and successful enough that college graduates end up working for them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A degree is required for most professional careers as an employee.
Of course, there are other ways to make a living.
Some people without degrees start their own companies because no one else will hire them.
Most fail but some are talented enough and successful enough that college graduates end up working for them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789597</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794637</id>
	<title>This DOES have to be fixed eventually</title>
	<author>SoVi3t</author>
	<datestamp>1255969260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I live in Canada, but still see many of the problems complained about here (and faced them first hand).  There used to be a law stating that colleges and universities couldn't make more than 11\% of their profit from tuition.  After that got scrapped the better part of a decade ago, tuition costs raised every single year.  It now costs $30K just to get a simple degree.  Add to that the fact that if you don't initially live near your college/uni, and need to move to get closer, rental units near colleges are horrific for their prices and conditions.

And even if you get a student load, it is no guarantee that you're in the clear.  I applied for college the FIRST time about 9 years ago, and I applied for a student loan and was accepted.  Start of the school year approaches, and no funds had been released.  Turns out they thought I was attending second semester (which makes no sense, because my loan application clearly stated Sept as the start of my school year), and due to various practices, it would take several weeks to rectify the problem.  So I didnt get ANY funding until the middle of October (my college refused to allow me to have access to my timetable until I had paid), and ended up failing the first semester miserably, and found out they didn't offer my courses AT ALL in the second semester.  So I got stuck with a $10,000 bill, which got knocked down to $5000, but still.  It took me 9 years to get back to school, and it's still insane (it will cost me just under $29,000 to get my degree this time).

<p>Ireland has done wonders with free post-secondary from what I have heard.  While just giving away free post secondary is a horrible idea, there has to be a better way to deal with this (ie-top students in high schools SHOULD be sent to post-secondary for free, and mid range students should have options, like working for 2 years and having money deducted to "pay" for their college).  A high school education now means sweet fuck all.  You can essentially have the same job with a high school diploma as you would without one.  So therefore better education is going to become a VERY hot topic in the near future</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I live in Canada , but still see many of the problems complained about here ( and faced them first hand ) .
There used to be a law stating that colleges and universities could n't make more than 11 \ % of their profit from tuition .
After that got scrapped the better part of a decade ago , tuition costs raised every single year .
It now costs $ 30K just to get a simple degree .
Add to that the fact that if you do n't initially live near your college/uni , and need to move to get closer , rental units near colleges are horrific for their prices and conditions .
And even if you get a student load , it is no guarantee that you 're in the clear .
I applied for college the FIRST time about 9 years ago , and I applied for a student loan and was accepted .
Start of the school year approaches , and no funds had been released .
Turns out they thought I was attending second semester ( which makes no sense , because my loan application clearly stated Sept as the start of my school year ) , and due to various practices , it would take several weeks to rectify the problem .
So I didnt get ANY funding until the middle of October ( my college refused to allow me to have access to my timetable until I had paid ) , and ended up failing the first semester miserably , and found out they did n't offer my courses AT ALL in the second semester .
So I got stuck with a $ 10,000 bill , which got knocked down to $ 5000 , but still .
It took me 9 years to get back to school , and it 's still insane ( it will cost me just under $ 29,000 to get my degree this time ) .
Ireland has done wonders with free post-secondary from what I have heard .
While just giving away free post secondary is a horrible idea , there has to be a better way to deal with this ( ie-top students in high schools SHOULD be sent to post-secondary for free , and mid range students should have options , like working for 2 years and having money deducted to " pay " for their college ) .
A high school education now means sweet fuck all .
You can essentially have the same job with a high school diploma as you would without one .
So therefore better education is going to become a VERY hot topic in the near future</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live in Canada, but still see many of the problems complained about here (and faced them first hand).
There used to be a law stating that colleges and universities couldn't make more than 11\% of their profit from tuition.
After that got scrapped the better part of a decade ago, tuition costs raised every single year.
It now costs $30K just to get a simple degree.
Add to that the fact that if you don't initially live near your college/uni, and need to move to get closer, rental units near colleges are horrific for their prices and conditions.
And even if you get a student load, it is no guarantee that you're in the clear.
I applied for college the FIRST time about 9 years ago, and I applied for a student loan and was accepted.
Start of the school year approaches, and no funds had been released.
Turns out they thought I was attending second semester (which makes no sense, because my loan application clearly stated Sept as the start of my school year), and due to various practices, it would take several weeks to rectify the problem.
So I didnt get ANY funding until the middle of October (my college refused to allow me to have access to my timetable until I had paid), and ended up failing the first semester miserably, and found out they didn't offer my courses AT ALL in the second semester.
So I got stuck with a $10,000 bill, which got knocked down to $5000, but still.
It took me 9 years to get back to school, and it's still insane (it will cost me just under $29,000 to get my degree this time).
Ireland has done wonders with free post-secondary from what I have heard.
While just giving away free post secondary is a horrible idea, there has to be a better way to deal with this (ie-top students in high schools SHOULD be sent to post-secondary for free, and mid range students should have options, like working for 2 years and having money deducted to "pay" for their college).
A high school education now means sweet fuck all.
You can essentially have the same job with a high school diploma as you would without one.
So therefore better education is going to become a VERY hot topic in the near future</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792579</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>doramjan</author>
	<datestamp>1255959600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Was it Creighton?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Was it Creighton ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Was it Creighton?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789155</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794943</id>
	<title>Re:Loans are an option not a requirement.</title>
	<author>Uberbah</author>
	<datestamp>1255970760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Look- if the professors were not making mid 100k incomes (yea, I know adjunct professors are poorly paid), if the universities were not funding research on the student's backs, if the university presidents were not making $350k!!! and if the universities JUST TAUGHT THE MATERIAL like they used to back in the 50's, then school wouldn't be so expensive.</i></p><p><b>Know what they had in the 50's?  A top marginal tax rate of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income\_tax\_in\_the\_United\_States#History\_of\_top\_rates.5B20.5D" title="wikipedia.org">84-91 PERCENT</a> [wikipedia.org].</b></p><p><i>That</i> and the Military-Industrial-Congressional-Complex are why we don't have the money for roads and schools: greed and waste.  Or for short, Republicans.</p><p><i>Health care is super expensive for the same reason. People have shown that they *will* pay anything for it, so the providers have jacked up the bill.</i></p><p>Uh, <b>no</b>.  Health care has gotten expensive because we have set up this middle man that profits by raising premiums while denying care.  Health care has gotten expensive because people are denied treatments and are forced to go to the emergency room at 10x the cost, so the CEO of Wellpoint can be worth three quarters of a billion dollars.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Look- if the professors were not making mid 100k incomes ( yea , I know adjunct professors are poorly paid ) , if the universities were not funding research on the student 's backs , if the university presidents were not making $ 350k ! ! !
and if the universities JUST TAUGHT THE MATERIAL like they used to back in the 50 's , then school would n't be so expensive.Know what they had in the 50 's ?
A top marginal tax rate of 84-91 PERCENT [ wikipedia.org ] .That and the Military-Industrial-Congressional-Complex are why we do n't have the money for roads and schools : greed and waste .
Or for short , Republicans.Health care is super expensive for the same reason .
People have shown that they * will * pay anything for it , so the providers have jacked up the bill.Uh , no .
Health care has gotten expensive because we have set up this middle man that profits by raising premiums while denying care .
Health care has gotten expensive because people are denied treatments and are forced to go to the emergency room at 10x the cost , so the CEO of Wellpoint can be worth three quarters of a billion dollars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look- if the professors were not making mid 100k incomes (yea, I know adjunct professors are poorly paid), if the universities were not funding research on the student's backs, if the university presidents were not making $350k!!!
and if the universities JUST TAUGHT THE MATERIAL like they used to back in the 50's, then school wouldn't be so expensive.Know what they had in the 50's?
A top marginal tax rate of 84-91 PERCENT [wikipedia.org].That and the Military-Industrial-Congressional-Complex are why we don't have the money for roads and schools: greed and waste.
Or for short, Republicans.Health care is super expensive for the same reason.
People have shown that they *will* pay anything for it, so the providers have jacked up the bill.Uh, no.
Health care has gotten expensive because we have set up this middle man that profits by raising premiums while denying care.
Health care has gotten expensive because people are denied treatments and are forced to go to the emergency room at 10x the cost, so the CEO of Wellpoint can be worth three quarters of a billion dollars.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29801897</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>Monsuco</author>
	<datestamp>1255955820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Show me the last person who helped design advanced chip architecture who didn't have a degree...</p></div><p>I just want to be a technician, not an engineer. I should be perfectly fine with A+, Net+, and a few other programs, but a degree seems a bit much.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Show me the last person who helped design advanced chip architecture who did n't have a degree...I just want to be a technician , not an engineer .
I should be perfectly fine with A + , Net + , and a few other programs , but a degree seems a bit much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Show me the last person who helped design advanced chip architecture who didn't have a degree...I just want to be a technician, not an engineer.
I should be perfectly fine with A+, Net+, and a few other programs, but a degree seems a bit much.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790201</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789631</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255884480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd really like to know when someone is suppose to be old enough to take responsibilty for his choices, 18?, 21? 25?  It seems that anyone under the age of 45 is trying to find out a way to blame someone else for decisions they made or didn't make.</p><p>There are a lot of good college educations that do not require getting $80K in loans.</p><p>It always amazed me why some one would go to some place like Harvard, spend $140K to major in Art with absolutely no path being able to recover the cost.<br>If some one is considered an adult, and signs a loan, they should be thinking through the implicitations of what they are signing... or is the implication is that college students are not bright enough to understand a loan..which will then beg the questions.. should they be in college, allowed to wander the streets without adult supervision or even vote.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd really like to know when someone is suppose to be old enough to take responsibilty for his choices , 18 ? , 21 ?
25 ? It seems that anyone under the age of 45 is trying to find out a way to blame someone else for decisions they made or did n't make.There are a lot of good college educations that do not require getting $ 80K in loans.It always amazed me why some one would go to some place like Harvard , spend $ 140K to major in Art with absolutely no path being able to recover the cost.If some one is considered an adult , and signs a loan , they should be thinking through the implicitations of what they are signing... or is the implication is that college students are not bright enough to understand a loan..which will then beg the questions.. should they be in college , allowed to wander the streets without adult supervision or even vote .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd really like to know when someone is suppose to be old enough to take responsibilty for his choices, 18?, 21?
25?  It seems that anyone under the age of 45 is trying to find out a way to blame someone else for decisions they made or didn't make.There are a lot of good college educations that do not require getting $80K in loans.It always amazed me why some one would go to some place like Harvard, spend $140K to major in Art with absolutely no path being able to recover the cost.If some one is considered an adult, and signs a loan, they should be thinking through the implicitations of what they are signing... or is the implication is that college students are not bright enough to understand a loan..which will then beg the questions.. should they be in college, allowed to wander the streets without adult supervision or even vote.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789403</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790161</id>
	<title>Re:Restating the problem</title>
	<author>nine-times</author>
	<datestamp>1255888320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The problem is one of treating education as a business like any other.</p></div><p>Unfortunately, we do a lot of that here.  We treat education like a business.  We treat health like a business.  We treat city planning like a business.  We treat infrastructure construction like a business.  We treat government like a business.
</p><p>For some reason, if you suggest that anything ought to be done for the common good, even if it's not directly profitable, you're labelled an anit-American communist.  I was born in the US and have lived here my entire life.  I've studied US history and I've studied some of the same political philosophers the "founding fathers" did.  Still, I don't know where this idea came from, that benefitting the public good was morally evil.  I feel like something must have happened to make everyone so angry and frightened.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is one of treating education as a business like any other.Unfortunately , we do a lot of that here .
We treat education like a business .
We treat health like a business .
We treat city planning like a business .
We treat infrastructure construction like a business .
We treat government like a business .
For some reason , if you suggest that anything ought to be done for the common good , even if it 's not directly profitable , you 're labelled an anit-American communist .
I was born in the US and have lived here my entire life .
I 've studied US history and I 've studied some of the same political philosophers the " founding fathers " did .
Still , I do n't know where this idea came from , that benefitting the public good was morally evil .
I feel like something must have happened to make everyone so angry and frightened .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is one of treating education as a business like any other.Unfortunately, we do a lot of that here.
We treat education like a business.
We treat health like a business.
We treat city planning like a business.
We treat infrastructure construction like a business.
We treat government like a business.
For some reason, if you suggest that anything ought to be done for the common good, even if it's not directly profitable, you're labelled an anit-American communist.
I was born in the US and have lived here my entire life.
I've studied US history and I've studied some of the same political philosophers the "founding fathers" did.
Still, I don't know where this idea came from, that benefitting the public good was morally evil.
I feel like something must have happened to make everyone so angry and frightened.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789305</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790487</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255891380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When will you be sending me my check?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When will you be sending me my check ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When will you be sending me my check?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29801289</id>
	<title>Re:It's cheap compared to India...</title>
	<author>KingJoshi</author>
	<datestamp>1255952580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In India, you can get 10\% interest from certain banks.  What can you get in the US?  What are the mortgage rates in India and how does it compare with the rates for education loans?  So many important factors you've left out in your comparison.</p><p>And this doesn't began to cover issues like normal salaries and cost of living and how that relates to whether education is affordable or the job market competition afterward and ability to pay off loans.  It's nice to have simple comparisons or explanations.  But often, they're biased, grossly inaccurate or a small glimpse which is misleading.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In India , you can get 10 \ % interest from certain banks .
What can you get in the US ?
What are the mortgage rates in India and how does it compare with the rates for education loans ?
So many important factors you 've left out in your comparison.And this does n't began to cover issues like normal salaries and cost of living and how that relates to whether education is affordable or the job market competition afterward and ability to pay off loans .
It 's nice to have simple comparisons or explanations .
But often , they 're biased , grossly inaccurate or a small glimpse which is misleading .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In India, you can get 10\% interest from certain banks.
What can you get in the US?
What are the mortgage rates in India and how does it compare with the rates for education loans?
So many important factors you've left out in your comparison.And this doesn't began to cover issues like normal salaries and cost of living and how that relates to whether education is affordable or the job market competition afterward and ability to pay off loans.
It's nice to have simple comparisons or explanations.
But often, they're biased, grossly inaccurate or a small glimpse which is misleading.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789151</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789351</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255882740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Except the problem is many students are still kids, and kids don't quite grasp the meaning of money. It's like candy and a baby, they'll take as much as they want until they get sick. Education is more and more about money, and less about learning. I mean shit, except of the very latest tech(which they don't teach in schools anyways) most things you can just buy a good book on... ok, buy the cheaper one published in India<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Except the problem is many students are still kids , and kids do n't quite grasp the meaning of money .
It 's like candy and a baby , they 'll take as much as they want until they get sick .
Education is more and more about money , and less about learning .
I mean shit , except of the very latest tech ( which they do n't teach in schools anyways ) most things you can just buy a good book on... ok , buy the cheaper one published in India ; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Except the problem is many students are still kids, and kids don't quite grasp the meaning of money.
It's like candy and a baby, they'll take as much as they want until they get sick.
Education is more and more about money, and less about learning.
I mean shit, except of the very latest tech(which they don't teach in schools anyways) most things you can just buy a good book on... ok, buy the cheaper one published in India ;)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789195</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789617</id>
	<title>Like in the Deal</title>
	<author>notcreative</author>
	<datestamp>1255884360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>None of this should be a surprise.  Part of getting treated like an adult means making rational decisions.  I'm frustrated by the high price of higher education, but until people start looking at the pricetag and saying "Jeez, no thanks!" then the demand will be there to drive 10\% a year price increases.  A lot of people have complained to me about their loans, but no one forced them to make that decision.  They apparently thought that going to that expensive school was worth the cost.  Instead of complaining about having to pay those debts, they should be thanking their stars that they were able to GO to college (many people don't) and have the opportunities that affords.  If they spent 80K$ on an English degree, that implies they thought that they could pay it off with whatever job they could get with that degree.  If they made a bad decision, why shouldn't they have to undergo the consequences?  Sounds like college is teaching them a lesson even after they graduate.</htmltext>
<tokenext>None of this should be a surprise .
Part of getting treated like an adult means making rational decisions .
I 'm frustrated by the high price of higher education , but until people start looking at the pricetag and saying " Jeez , no thanks !
" then the demand will be there to drive 10 \ % a year price increases .
A lot of people have complained to me about their loans , but no one forced them to make that decision .
They apparently thought that going to that expensive school was worth the cost .
Instead of complaining about having to pay those debts , they should be thanking their stars that they were able to GO to college ( many people do n't ) and have the opportunities that affords .
If they spent 80K $ on an English degree , that implies they thought that they could pay it off with whatever job they could get with that degree .
If they made a bad decision , why should n't they have to undergo the consequences ?
Sounds like college is teaching them a lesson even after they graduate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>None of this should be a surprise.
Part of getting treated like an adult means making rational decisions.
I'm frustrated by the high price of higher education, but until people start looking at the pricetag and saying "Jeez, no thanks!
" then the demand will be there to drive 10\% a year price increases.
A lot of people have complained to me about their loans, but no one forced them to make that decision.
They apparently thought that going to that expensive school was worth the cost.
Instead of complaining about having to pay those debts, they should be thanking their stars that they were able to GO to college (many people don't) and have the opportunities that affords.
If they spent 80K$ on an English degree, that implies they thought that they could pay it off with whatever job they could get with that degree.
If they made a bad decision, why shouldn't they have to undergo the consequences?
Sounds like college is teaching them a lesson even after they graduate.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789809</id>
	<title>Re:Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255885740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>interest accrues on my student loans at a rate of several thousand dollars per year, even WHILE I'M IN GRAD SCHOOL</p></div><p>You should ask for a deferment. That suspends both the repayment of the loan and the interest while you are in school.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>interest accrues on my student loans at a rate of several thousand dollars per year , even WHILE I 'M IN GRAD SCHOOLYou should ask for a deferment .
That suspends both the repayment of the loan and the interest while you are in school .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>interest accrues on my student loans at a rate of several thousand dollars per year, even WHILE I'M IN GRAD SCHOOLYou should ask for a deferment.
That suspends both the repayment of the loan and the interest while you are in school.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789281</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29803067</id>
	<title>Re:Nothing like starting life $100K in the hole</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255963740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><b>Correction:</b> this kills opportunities for "poor people". The offspring of the rich can continue unimpeded.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Correction : this kills opportunities for " poor people " .
The offspring of the rich can continue unimpeded .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Correction: this kills opportunities for "poor people".
The offspring of the rich can continue unimpeded.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789425</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792165</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>mapkinase</author>
	<datestamp>1255956300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"each person wishes to attain" not.</p><p>It should be free, but only for people who win in competition of merits. Geeks and nerds should be in colleges, not the American rugby jocks.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" each person wishes to attain " not.It should be free , but only for people who win in competition of merits .
Geeks and nerds should be in colleges , not the American rugby jocks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"each person wishes to attain" not.It should be free, but only for people who win in competition of merits.
Geeks and nerds should be in colleges, not the American rugby jocks.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792921</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>brian0918</author>
	<datestamp>1255961700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>So what you're saying is that even though the system is broken it is your own damn fault for having put up with it to get a college education? That's not solving anything.</p></div><p>It's precisely the solution - personal responsibility.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So what you 're saying is that even though the system is broken it is your own damn fault for having put up with it to get a college education ?
That 's not solving anything.It 's precisely the solution - personal responsibility .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So what you're saying is that even though the system is broken it is your own damn fault for having put up with it to get a college education?
That's not solving anything.It's precisely the solution - personal responsibility.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789403</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795685</id>
	<title>Baby needs a bottle...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255973640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here is idea, stop bitching. You were lucky (or unlucky) enough to get a loan. Now pay it back like the rest of us. I took an extra year to get my degree and worked so I didn't have 80K in loans when I graduated. It is exactly this type of entitlement thinking that has ruined this country. You aren't entitled to a 80K education just because you want one. Go earn it instead of stealing, errr borrowing, money from the gov't.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here is idea , stop bitching .
You were lucky ( or unlucky ) enough to get a loan .
Now pay it back like the rest of us .
I took an extra year to get my degree and worked so I did n't have 80K in loans when I graduated .
It is exactly this type of entitlement thinking that has ruined this country .
You are n't entitled to a 80K education just because you want one .
Go earn it instead of stealing , errr borrowing , money from the gov't .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here is idea, stop bitching.
You were lucky (or unlucky) enough to get a loan.
Now pay it back like the rest of us.
I took an extra year to get my degree and worked so I didn't have 80K in loans when I graduated.
It is exactly this type of entitlement thinking that has ruined this country.
You aren't entitled to a 80K education just because you want one.
Go earn it instead of stealing, errr borrowing, money from the gov't.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29798461</id>
	<title>Re:Waaa, Waaa, frikin' WAAAAA!</title>
	<author>crmarvin42</author>
	<datestamp>1255984020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The only people that should be pursuing degrees that are unlikely to ever help them acquire gainful empolyment in the future should be those that are wealthy enough to pay their expenses out of pocket.  <br> <br>I have no problem with someone spending their own money to acquire knowledge that they desire.  I take HUGE offense at attempts to use Taxpayer money (as most student loans are guaranteed by the fed) to learn something that they can't use and then expect the same government to forgive their tab because of the uselessness of the degree in question.<br> <br>Not everyone in a country can be college educated.  Who will do all of the jobs that don't require a college education (Hint: most jobs don't require a college education).  If you make college free the way other public services are (which are not free by the way, just included in your taxes already), then everyone will go to college and the college degree itself will become useless.  Those that can will then pursue graduate degrees and they will become the minimum requirement for jobs that currently require a BA/BS.<br> <br>Everyone in the US has the <b>Opportunity to pursue</b> an education, they just don't IMO have the right to pursue a useless degree unless they can afford to cover the costs themselves.  You apparently have decided that you wanted to learn skills that don't necessarily help you find gainful employment.  That's fine as long as you pay the bill for your own education.  Sounds like your doing just that, so I have no complaints that should concern you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The only people that should be pursuing degrees that are unlikely to ever help them acquire gainful empolyment in the future should be those that are wealthy enough to pay their expenses out of pocket .
I have no problem with someone spending their own money to acquire knowledge that they desire .
I take HUGE offense at attempts to use Taxpayer money ( as most student loans are guaranteed by the fed ) to learn something that they ca n't use and then expect the same government to forgive their tab because of the uselessness of the degree in question .
Not everyone in a country can be college educated .
Who will do all of the jobs that do n't require a college education ( Hint : most jobs do n't require a college education ) .
If you make college free the way other public services are ( which are not free by the way , just included in your taxes already ) , then everyone will go to college and the college degree itself will become useless .
Those that can will then pursue graduate degrees and they will become the minimum requirement for jobs that currently require a BA/BS .
Everyone in the US has the Opportunity to pursue an education , they just do n't IMO have the right to pursue a useless degree unless they can afford to cover the costs themselves .
You apparently have decided that you wanted to learn skills that do n't necessarily help you find gainful employment .
That 's fine as long as you pay the bill for your own education .
Sounds like your doing just that , so I have no complaints that should concern you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only people that should be pursuing degrees that are unlikely to ever help them acquire gainful empolyment in the future should be those that are wealthy enough to pay their expenses out of pocket.
I have no problem with someone spending their own money to acquire knowledge that they desire.
I take HUGE offense at attempts to use Taxpayer money (as most student loans are guaranteed by the fed) to learn something that they can't use and then expect the same government to forgive their tab because of the uselessness of the degree in question.
Not everyone in a country can be college educated.
Who will do all of the jobs that don't require a college education (Hint: most jobs don't require a college education).
If you make college free the way other public services are (which are not free by the way, just included in your taxes already), then everyone will go to college and the college degree itself will become useless.
Those that can will then pursue graduate degrees and they will become the minimum requirement for jobs that currently require a BA/BS.
Everyone in the US has the Opportunity to pursue an education, they just don't IMO have the right to pursue a useless degree unless they can afford to cover the costs themselves.
You apparently have decided that you wanted to learn skills that don't necessarily help you find gainful employment.
That's fine as long as you pay the bill for your own education.
Sounds like your doing just that, so I have no complaints that should concern you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29797829</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789763</id>
	<title>New Zealand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255885320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In New Zealand, student loans are interest free as of last year<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In New Zealand , student loans are interest free as of last year : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In New Zealand, student loans are interest free as of last year :)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790767</id>
	<title>Raise Taxes</title>
	<author>lwiniarski</author>
	<datestamp>1255893840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's screwed up.

<p>
But it's not just college loans.   our entire culture has shifted so far toward individual wealth and away from the common good.   The 28/40 year republican rule in the country has pretty much decimated civic values, put us 12 trillion dollars into debt (almost all of it in republican administrations)....

</p><p>
The richest people WANT to see high interest rates on the poor.  That's how they make their money.  Investing.  As far as they are concerned, the
higher the better.    If a student will pay 8.4\% interest, then they are a lot more likely to give him money than the guy only willing to pay 3\%.
And the more wealth is concentrated in the hands of the rich, the easier it is to raise interest rates to the absolute maximum possible.

</p><p>
The fact is that the free market systems we all love, start to fail at some time.  It's always cheaper to pollute the stream, pass debt on to future generations, and screw the poor.   It's more expensive to treat the water,  raise taxes, and educate and help the poor.

</p><p>
The truth is we need to raise taxes on the wealthy and start putting money back into the common good like an educated public and public infrastructure instead of idiotic private McMansions.

</p><p>
Let's start with the idiotic low taxes on capital gains and the social security tax cap...Rich people pay FAR less of a tax percentage than the middle class,  and the middle class is unbelievably ignorant of it.    How many of you knew that there is a 13\% Social Security tax that ENDS when you make over $106,000?   The richest person in the world (Warren Buffet) pays a lower percentage in tax than his secretary?   The rich don't even pay tax on money made through stock appreciation, until the stock is sold?   But the wage guy has to pay every year?

</p><p>
It's gotten ridiculous, and the public needs to demand that taxes are raised...The rich will fight it tooth and nail and use all sorts of scare tactics and , but that's the only way things are going to get better....and the rich will NEVER do it voluntarily.

</p><p>
Write to your congressman..ask him to raise taxes...especially on the wealthy


</p><p>
<a href="http://www.house.gov/" title="house.gov" rel="nofollow">http://www.house.gov/</a> [house.gov]

</p><p>
<a href="http://www.senate.gov/" title="senate.gov" rel="nofollow">http://www.senate.gov/</a> [senate.gov]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's screwed up .
But it 's not just college loans .
our entire culture has shifted so far toward individual wealth and away from the common good .
The 28/40 year republican rule in the country has pretty much decimated civic values , put us 12 trillion dollars into debt ( almost all of it in republican administrations ) ... . The richest people WANT to see high interest rates on the poor .
That 's how they make their money .
Investing. As far as they are concerned , the higher the better .
If a student will pay 8.4 \ % interest , then they are a lot more likely to give him money than the guy only willing to pay 3 \ % .
And the more wealth is concentrated in the hands of the rich , the easier it is to raise interest rates to the absolute maximum possible .
The fact is that the free market systems we all love , start to fail at some time .
It 's always cheaper to pollute the stream , pass debt on to future generations , and screw the poor .
It 's more expensive to treat the water , raise taxes , and educate and help the poor .
The truth is we need to raise taxes on the wealthy and start putting money back into the common good like an educated public and public infrastructure instead of idiotic private McMansions .
Let 's start with the idiotic low taxes on capital gains and the social security tax cap...Rich people pay FAR less of a tax percentage than the middle class , and the middle class is unbelievably ignorant of it .
How many of you knew that there is a 13 \ % Social Security tax that ENDS when you make over $ 106,000 ?
The richest person in the world ( Warren Buffet ) pays a lower percentage in tax than his secretary ?
The rich do n't even pay tax on money made through stock appreciation , until the stock is sold ?
But the wage guy has to pay every year ?
It 's gotten ridiculous , and the public needs to demand that taxes are raised...The rich will fight it tooth and nail and use all sorts of scare tactics and , but that 's the only way things are going to get better....and the rich will NEVER do it voluntarily .
Write to your congressman..ask him to raise taxes...especially on the wealthy http : //www.house.gov/ [ house.gov ] http : //www.senate.gov/ [ senate.gov ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's screwed up.
But it's not just college loans.
our entire culture has shifted so far toward individual wealth and away from the common good.
The 28/40 year republican rule in the country has pretty much decimated civic values, put us 12 trillion dollars into debt (almost all of it in republican administrations)....


The richest people WANT to see high interest rates on the poor.
That's how they make their money.
Investing.  As far as they are concerned, the
higher the better.
If a student will pay 8.4\% interest, then they are a lot more likely to give him money than the guy only willing to pay 3\%.
And the more wealth is concentrated in the hands of the rich, the easier it is to raise interest rates to the absolute maximum possible.
The fact is that the free market systems we all love, start to fail at some time.
It's always cheaper to pollute the stream, pass debt on to future generations, and screw the poor.
It's more expensive to treat the water,  raise taxes, and educate and help the poor.
The truth is we need to raise taxes on the wealthy and start putting money back into the common good like an educated public and public infrastructure instead of idiotic private McMansions.
Let's start with the idiotic low taxes on capital gains and the social security tax cap...Rich people pay FAR less of a tax percentage than the middle class,  and the middle class is unbelievably ignorant of it.
How many of you knew that there is a 13\% Social Security tax that ENDS when you make over $106,000?
The richest person in the world (Warren Buffet) pays a lower percentage in tax than his secretary?
The rich don't even pay tax on money made through stock appreciation, until the stock is sold?
But the wage guy has to pay every year?
It's gotten ridiculous, and the public needs to demand that taxes are raised...The rich will fight it tooth and nail and use all sorts of scare tactics and , but that's the only way things are going to get better....and the rich will NEVER do it voluntarily.
Write to your congressman..ask him to raise taxes...especially on the wealthy



http://www.house.gov/ [house.gov]


http://www.senate.gov/ [senate.gov]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789789</id>
	<title>Simple solution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255885620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hire lobbyists to "influence" government with money.</p><p>Yes, I am being sarcastic.  But if that doesn't paint the clearest possible picture of what is wrong with our government and why "the people" are increasingly getting screwed while big business and the extremely wealthy get everything they want on a silver platter, then I don't know what does.  We, the ordinary people, don't have access to our government.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hire lobbyists to " influence " government with money.Yes , I am being sarcastic .
But if that does n't paint the clearest possible picture of what is wrong with our government and why " the people " are increasingly getting screwed while big business and the extremely wealthy get everything they want on a silver platter , then I do n't know what does .
We , the ordinary people , do n't have access to our government .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hire lobbyists to "influence" government with money.Yes, I am being sarcastic.
But if that doesn't paint the clearest possible picture of what is wrong with our government and why "the people" are increasingly getting screwed while big business and the extremely wealthy get everything they want on a silver platter, then I don't know what does.
We, the ordinary people, don't have access to our government.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789435</id>
	<title>Should have grown up in communist North Dakota</title>
	<author>smchris</author>
	<datestamp>1255883280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The state has its own bank to offer residents low interest loans for socially useful things like student loans.</p><p>But it's basically Reaganomics.  The theory goes that education shouldn't be supported because I guess it isn't really a social good and colleges should be run like businesses.  So thank Neocon libertarianism for your loan payments.  To do a "back in my day" may be annoying but it can also be enlightening.  I remember something like $7.50 per undergraduate state college quarter credit.  48 in a typical three quarter year for a cool $360/year tuition.  Sure, I was making $1.5/hour on my first summer job hammering together harrow weeder belts on a night shift factory job and that was considered a good high school wage so let's say $1/hour was more typical.  Up that to $7.50 today and multiple by $360 and you should be paying something like $2,700/year for tuition at a four-year state college.  Thank Reaganomics and "running colleges like a business" for your difference.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The state has its own bank to offer residents low interest loans for socially useful things like student loans.But it 's basically Reaganomics .
The theory goes that education should n't be supported because I guess it is n't really a social good and colleges should be run like businesses .
So thank Neocon libertarianism for your loan payments .
To do a " back in my day " may be annoying but it can also be enlightening .
I remember something like $ 7.50 per undergraduate state college quarter credit .
48 in a typical three quarter year for a cool $ 360/year tuition .
Sure , I was making $ 1.5/hour on my first summer job hammering together harrow weeder belts on a night shift factory job and that was considered a good high school wage so let 's say $ 1/hour was more typical .
Up that to $ 7.50 today and multiple by $ 360 and you should be paying something like $ 2,700/year for tuition at a four-year state college .
Thank Reaganomics and " running colleges like a business " for your difference .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The state has its own bank to offer residents low interest loans for socially useful things like student loans.But it's basically Reaganomics.
The theory goes that education shouldn't be supported because I guess it isn't really a social good and colleges should be run like businesses.
So thank Neocon libertarianism for your loan payments.
To do a "back in my day" may be annoying but it can also be enlightening.
I remember something like $7.50 per undergraduate state college quarter credit.
48 in a typical three quarter year for a cool $360/year tuition.
Sure, I was making $1.5/hour on my first summer job hammering together harrow weeder belts on a night shift factory job and that was considered a good high school wage so let's say $1/hour was more typical.
Up that to $7.50 today and multiple by $360 and you should be paying something like $2,700/year for tuition at a four-year state college.
Thank Reaganomics and "running colleges like a business" for your difference.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795363</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>c6gunner</author>
	<datestamp>1255972380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>As someone from Brown put it bluntly, "If we didn't charge so much, people would not think it was worth anything."</p></div><p>The problem is that employers are already realizing that it's not worth anything.  If you get a degree in the physical sciences, then yeah, you've got your moneys worth.  Anything else and you'll be cleaning tables at McDonalds until you can either find an entry-level position which you could have gotten with a GED, or you go back to school to get a worthwhile degree.  Quite a few of my friends learned this lesson the hard way.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone from Brown put it bluntly , " If we did n't charge so much , people would not think it was worth anything .
" The problem is that employers are already realizing that it 's not worth anything .
If you get a degree in the physical sciences , then yeah , you 've got your moneys worth .
Anything else and you 'll be cleaning tables at McDonalds until you can either find an entry-level position which you could have gotten with a GED , or you go back to school to get a worthwhile degree .
Quite a few of my friends learned this lesson the hard way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone from Brown put it bluntly, "If we didn't charge so much, people would not think it was worth anything.
"The problem is that employers are already realizing that it's not worth anything.
If you get a degree in the physical sciences, then yeah, you've got your moneys worth.
Anything else and you'll be cleaning tables at McDonalds until you can either find an entry-level position which you could have gotten with a GED, or you go back to school to get a worthwhile degree.
Quite a few of my friends learned this lesson the hard way.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789845</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790331</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>pcolaman</author>
	<datestamp>1255889640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Man, my wife was such a dumbass to go to school to get a Bachelor's Degree in Medical Technology.  I'm willing to bet the Florida State Medical Licensing Board would see her experience and just overlook the piece of paper.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Man , my wife was such a dumbass to go to school to get a Bachelor 's Degree in Medical Technology .
I 'm willing to bet the Florida State Medical Licensing Board would see her experience and just overlook the piece of paper .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Man, my wife was such a dumbass to go to school to get a Bachelor's Degree in Medical Technology.
I'm willing to bet the Florida State Medical Licensing Board would see her experience and just overlook the piece of paper.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789597</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790683</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255893060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And that is the most succinct post on this matter.  What kind of educated population does the US actually want?  Dumb-as-road-rocks would be my assessment.  Access to education appears to depend on being either already rich or willing to go into indentured servitude for a decade.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And that is the most succinct post on this matter .
What kind of educated population does the US actually want ?
Dumb-as-road-rocks would be my assessment .
Access to education appears to depend on being either already rich or willing to go into indentured servitude for a decade .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And that is the most succinct post on this matter.
What kind of educated population does the US actually want?
Dumb-as-road-rocks would be my assessment.
Access to education appears to depend on being either already rich or willing to go into indentured servitude for a decade.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789913</id>
	<title>It is ridiculous</title>
	<author>SetupWeasel</author>
	<datestamp>1255886520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That you can go to a state university on an honors scholarship, work the entire time, and leave with $40,000 in debt. Since primary education is a joke and a bachelor's is required for most decent jobs, something has to be done about this.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That you can go to a state university on an honors scholarship , work the entire time , and leave with $ 40,000 in debt .
Since primary education is a joke and a bachelor 's is required for most decent jobs , something has to be done about this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That you can go to a state university on an honors scholarship, work the entire time, and leave with $40,000 in debt.
Since primary education is a joke and a bachelor's is required for most decent jobs, something has to be done about this.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793109</id>
	<title>Re:Reform is needed.</title>
	<author>nedlohs</author>
	<datestamp>1255962600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The simplest way to lower the cost of higher education is not to set things up so that people can borrow tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay for those high prices.</p><p>Of course reducing the interest rate does the exact opposite of that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The simplest way to lower the cost of higher education is not to set things up so that people can borrow tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay for those high prices.Of course reducing the interest rate does the exact opposite of that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The simplest way to lower the cost of higher education is not to set things up so that people can borrow tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay for those high prices.Of course reducing the interest rate does the exact opposite of that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789407</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789771</id>
	<title>Suck it up Princess</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255885380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My rate 20 years ago was 9.5\%.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My rate 20 years ago was 9.5 \ % .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My rate 20 years ago was 9.5\%.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789327</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>wizardforce</author>
	<datestamp>1255882560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I wondered how they stayed in business especially these days.</p></div></blockquote><p> I am not 100\% confident on this but I'd guess it's either 1) They cater to high income families and/or 2) subsidies.  That's a lot of the difference between in and out of state tuition costs to students; the out of state costs are horrifying to behold.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I wondered how they stayed in business especially these days .
I am not 100 \ % confident on this but I 'd guess it 's either 1 ) They cater to high income families and/or 2 ) subsidies .
That 's a lot of the difference between in and out of state tuition costs to students ; the out of state costs are horrifying to behold .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wondered how they stayed in business especially these days.
I am not 100\% confident on this but I'd guess it's either 1) They cater to high income families and/or 2) subsidies.
That's a lot of the difference between in and out of state tuition costs to students; the out of state costs are horrifying to behold.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789155</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790113</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255887840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've never seen a scholarship or grant which required you to take a loan.</p><p>There is at least one alternative. You work full-time and go to school. In fact, that's how I ended up a Network Admin rather than an Advertising Executive, by working 2nd shift at the Internet Service Providers.</p><p>I think it's wonderful that you believe you are entitled to a college education; there's no such entitlement, nor should there be. If we're going to make the system of higher-education based on entitlements then we'll have to go to a competitive system where only the top X number of students of some federal test are allowed to go to apply for university.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've never seen a scholarship or grant which required you to take a loan.There is at least one alternative .
You work full-time and go to school .
In fact , that 's how I ended up a Network Admin rather than an Advertising Executive , by working 2nd shift at the Internet Service Providers.I think it 's wonderful that you believe you are entitled to a college education ; there 's no such entitlement , nor should there be .
If we 're going to make the system of higher-education based on entitlements then we 'll have to go to a competitive system where only the top X number of students of some federal test are allowed to go to apply for university .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've never seen a scholarship or grant which required you to take a loan.There is at least one alternative.
You work full-time and go to school.
In fact, that's how I ended up a Network Admin rather than an Advertising Executive, by working 2nd shift at the Internet Service Providers.I think it's wonderful that you believe you are entitled to a college education; there's no such entitlement, nor should there be.
If we're going to make the system of higher-education based on entitlements then we'll have to go to a competitive system where only the top X number of students of some federal test are allowed to go to apply for university.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789329</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789707</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255885020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here is a lession from College economics 101</p><p>-If there are fewer students attending and the fixed costs don't changes the (tuition) costs will go up higher.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here is a lession from College economics 101-If there are fewer students attending and the fixed costs do n't changes the ( tuition ) costs will go up higher .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here is a lession from College economics 101-If there are fewer students attending and the fixed costs don't changes the (tuition) costs will go up higher.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789355</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789509</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>Schlacht</author>
	<datestamp>1255883700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And if some shit hits you like a divorce, a company going under you committed years of effort to, and other 'snake-eyes' throws of the dice since you finished school, then what? And then 'null' level of flexibility is offered as short-term support, no adjustment other than upward of said interest rates due to missed payments<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. then what. Lost wife, house, etc<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... what is left? Not much<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p><p>Life can be "tough-shit" for some, very accurate post. But, no, a bailout is not the answer<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... some bullshit bankrupt maneuver is also deconstructive to the system. The future of education in America will continue to degrade in this process though. Some people will work hard their whole life, also while going to school, never draw a day of unemployment, and hope that things fall into place. For many it will, but for some it won't. When it does not fall into place quite like they hoped, hearing the wise words of some cockhoster like you saying, "Tough Shit" does not do much for anyone. Thanks for trying though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And if some shit hits you like a divorce , a company going under you committed years of effort to , and other 'snake-eyes ' throws of the dice since you finished school , then what ?
And then 'null ' level of flexibility is offered as short-term support , no adjustment other than upward of said interest rates due to missed payments .. then what .
Lost wife , house , etc ... what is left ?
Not much ...Life can be " tough-shit " for some , very accurate post .
But , no , a bailout is not the answer ... some bullshit bankrupt maneuver is also deconstructive to the system .
The future of education in America will continue to degrade in this process though .
Some people will work hard their whole life , also while going to school , never draw a day of unemployment , and hope that things fall into place .
For many it will , but for some it wo n't .
When it does not fall into place quite like they hoped , hearing the wise words of some cockhoster like you saying , " Tough Shit " does not do much for anyone .
Thanks for trying though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And if some shit hits you like a divorce, a company going under you committed years of effort to, and other 'snake-eyes' throws of the dice since you finished school, then what?
And then 'null' level of flexibility is offered as short-term support, no adjustment other than upward of said interest rates due to missed payments .. then what.
Lost wife, house, etc ... what is left?
Not much ...Life can be "tough-shit" for some, very accurate post.
But, no, a bailout is not the answer ... some bullshit bankrupt maneuver is also deconstructive to the system.
The future of education in America will continue to degrade in this process though.
Some people will work hard their whole life, also while going to school, never draw a day of unemployment, and hope that things fall into place.
For many it will, but for some it won't.
When it does not fall into place quite like they hoped, hearing the wise words of some cockhoster like you saying, "Tough Shit" does not do much for anyone.
Thanks for trying though.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789195</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790201</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>Kotoku</author>
	<datestamp>1255888620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Show me the last person who helped design advanced chip architecture who didn't have a degree...you will never, ever, get hired to do that without one.

My field won't even let you work without a degree and board certification, and you still have to practice under someone until you have enough experience.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Show me the last person who helped design advanced chip architecture who did n't have a degree...you will never , ever , get hired to do that without one .
My field wo n't even let you work without a degree and board certification , and you still have to practice under someone until you have enough experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Show me the last person who helped design advanced chip architecture who didn't have a degree...you will never, ever, get hired to do that without one.
My field won't even let you work without a degree and board certification, and you still have to practice under someone until you have enough experience.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789597</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789831</id>
	<title>Re:Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>the\_humeister</author>
	<datestamp>1255885980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>$30+/year? Holy crap! You know what I did? I lived at home to save money and commuted to school. You kids these days. That's what it costs to get the "college experience" but was it worth getting into so much debt?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 30 + /year ?
Holy crap !
You know what I did ?
I lived at home to save money and commuted to school .
You kids these days .
That 's what it costs to get the " college experience " but was it worth getting into so much debt ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$30+/year?
Holy crap!
You know what I did?
I lived at home to save money and commuted to school.
You kids these days.
That's what it costs to get the "college experience" but was it worth getting into so much debt?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789281</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794541</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>Attila Dimedici</author>
	<datestamp>1255968840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I saw your second post about being more upset about tuition than the loan rates. The reason that tuition is so high is because we as a society have decided that everyone should have a college education. As a result we have instituted programs that mean that only a minuscule percent of the population has to forgo a college education because of cost. This means that colleges and universities have an almost no incentive to control cost. College tuition increases significantly faster than inflation. Since there is not a significant gap between supply and demand, that indicates that there is some factor interfering in the market to cause prices to rise. Repeated government efforts over the past 40 or so years to make college education "more affordable" have failed because they are part of the problem.<br>
There are other ways besides cost to limit the number of people who get a higher education (competitive exams are one example). One or more of these alternatives are used by countries that pay for the entire tuition of those who attend university, however, the U.S. does not. As a result, the U.S. has an ever increasing pool of  individuals with a large amount of debt and an education with little economic value.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I saw your second post about being more upset about tuition than the loan rates .
The reason that tuition is so high is because we as a society have decided that everyone should have a college education .
As a result we have instituted programs that mean that only a minuscule percent of the population has to forgo a college education because of cost .
This means that colleges and universities have an almost no incentive to control cost .
College tuition increases significantly faster than inflation .
Since there is not a significant gap between supply and demand , that indicates that there is some factor interfering in the market to cause prices to rise .
Repeated government efforts over the past 40 or so years to make college education " more affordable " have failed because they are part of the problem .
There are other ways besides cost to limit the number of people who get a higher education ( competitive exams are one example ) .
One or more of these alternatives are used by countries that pay for the entire tuition of those who attend university , however , the U.S. does not .
As a result , the U.S. has an ever increasing pool of individuals with a large amount of debt and an education with little economic value .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I saw your second post about being more upset about tuition than the loan rates.
The reason that tuition is so high is because we as a society have decided that everyone should have a college education.
As a result we have instituted programs that mean that only a minuscule percent of the population has to forgo a college education because of cost.
This means that colleges and universities have an almost no incentive to control cost.
College tuition increases significantly faster than inflation.
Since there is not a significant gap between supply and demand, that indicates that there is some factor interfering in the market to cause prices to rise.
Repeated government efforts over the past 40 or so years to make college education "more affordable" have failed because they are part of the problem.
There are other ways besides cost to limit the number of people who get a higher education (competitive exams are one example).
One or more of these alternatives are used by countries that pay for the entire tuition of those who attend university, however, the U.S. does not.
As a result, the U.S. has an ever increasing pool of  individuals with a large amount of debt and an education with little economic value.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789241</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792057</id>
	<title>Do it right.</title>
	<author>Fross</author>
	<datestamp>1255955040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The total amount of money involved, for all students in the country, is not huge. A couple of billion perhaps?</p><p>Why doesn't the government just stick that money in a pot, and issue the loans themselves? They can charge a notional low rate of interest, and set favourable rates of return. This is, after all, investing in education, and in the country as a whole, why try to gouge the rates up and punish people for trying to better themselves.</p><p>The UK government has a good system (or did 15 years ago, when I graduated). I could:</p><p>- choose how much to borrow (up to a limit, but I could borrow less)<br>- got a good rate of interest (1.2\% or 1.3\% I think)<br>- payments started a year after graduating<br>- didn't have to repay if I was earning around minimum wage (&pound;12000 a year I think)<br>- could pay it off early if I wanted to</p><p>At the end of it, the government gets their money back (plus interest), from almost everyone, and they end up with a more educated workforce. Why exactly would you want to cripple that?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The total amount of money involved , for all students in the country , is not huge .
A couple of billion perhaps ? Why does n't the government just stick that money in a pot , and issue the loans themselves ?
They can charge a notional low rate of interest , and set favourable rates of return .
This is , after all , investing in education , and in the country as a whole , why try to gouge the rates up and punish people for trying to better themselves.The UK government has a good system ( or did 15 years ago , when I graduated ) .
I could : - choose how much to borrow ( up to a limit , but I could borrow less ) - got a good rate of interest ( 1.2 \ % or 1.3 \ % I think ) - payments started a year after graduating- did n't have to repay if I was earning around minimum wage (   12000 a year I think ) - could pay it off early if I wanted toAt the end of it , the government gets their money back ( plus interest ) , from almost everyone , and they end up with a more educated workforce .
Why exactly would you want to cripple that ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The total amount of money involved, for all students in the country, is not huge.
A couple of billion perhaps?Why doesn't the government just stick that money in a pot, and issue the loans themselves?
They can charge a notional low rate of interest, and set favourable rates of return.
This is, after all, investing in education, and in the country as a whole, why try to gouge the rates up and punish people for trying to better themselves.The UK government has a good system (or did 15 years ago, when I graduated).
I could:- choose how much to borrow (up to a limit, but I could borrow less)- got a good rate of interest (1.2\% or 1.3\% I think)- payments started a year after graduating- didn't have to repay if I was earning around minimum wage (£12000 a year I think)- could pay it off early if I wanted toAt the end of it, the government gets their money back (plus interest), from almost everyone, and they end up with a more educated workforce.
Why exactly would you want to cripple that?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29797029</id>
	<title>Re:What do you expect?</title>
	<author>PeanutButterBreath</author>
	<datestamp>1255978800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If your parents covered 75\% of your education, you are in no position to lecture anyone about "living within you means".  Nor should you make snide allusions to friends who will only become homeowners when they inherit homes from <i>their parents</i>, when your oh-so-sperior position was made possible by handouts from <i>your parents</i>.</p><p>And are we supposed to be impressed that you left your 2 siblings one semester's worth of tuition to divvy up?</p><p>Sheesh.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If your parents covered 75 \ % of your education , you are in no position to lecture anyone about " living within you means " .
Nor should you make snide allusions to friends who will only become homeowners when they inherit homes from their parents , when your oh-so-sperior position was made possible by handouts from your parents.And are we supposed to be impressed that you left your 2 siblings one semester 's worth of tuition to divvy up ? Sheesh .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If your parents covered 75\% of your education, you are in no position to lecture anyone about "living within you means".
Nor should you make snide allusions to friends who will only become homeowners when they inherit homes from their parents, when your oh-so-sperior position was made possible by handouts from your parents.And are we supposed to be impressed that you left your 2 siblings one semester's worth of tuition to divvy up?Sheesh.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789713</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790235</id>
	<title>Re:not the real problem</title>
	<author>iPhr0stByt3</author>
	<datestamp>1255888980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I like that.  Tackle the problem.  Frankly... all the whiners who just went to college for the parties and barely passed can rot in their dept-hole as far as I care.  If you're worth what your mouth claims it is, then you'll pay off any college debt in a few years and in 4-5 have made enough $$$ to come out ahead compared to working minimum wage.<br> <br>
So finding ways to make this PRIVILEGE affordable is really a better approach than whining.  For those who like the government paying for everything remember that in 10-15 years you come out behind again because of higher tax rates... the more work the government does FOR its citizens the more is wasted on bureaucracy.   <br> <br>
Other possibilities to reduce costs include treating all students equally - granting scholarships based on performance, not ethnicity, gender, income.  For example, my wife got a sweet scholarship for being a woman in engineering.  Good for the both of us, but sucks for everyone else who has to pay her bill.  How about a friend of mine who got grants for low income - because he didn't WANT to work. Those who spend 20-40 hours a week at a job making money to pay the tuition themselves get docked for trying - that's backwards. <br> <br>
And just to let people know, there is a MUCH cheaper alternative out there now.  Granted, it's not a well-known university and I personally feel it's too easy on it's students, but it IS fully accredited and VERY affordable:  <a href="http://www.wgu.edu/" title="wgu.edu" rel="nofollow"> </a> [wgu.edu] <br>
Reply if you want to hear more about this university.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I like that .
Tackle the problem .
Frankly... all the whiners who just went to college for the parties and barely passed can rot in their dept-hole as far as I care .
If you 're worth what your mouth claims it is , then you 'll pay off any college debt in a few years and in 4-5 have made enough $ $ $ to come out ahead compared to working minimum wage .
So finding ways to make this PRIVILEGE affordable is really a better approach than whining .
For those who like the government paying for everything remember that in 10-15 years you come out behind again because of higher tax rates... the more work the government does FOR its citizens the more is wasted on bureaucracy .
Other possibilities to reduce costs include treating all students equally - granting scholarships based on performance , not ethnicity , gender , income .
For example , my wife got a sweet scholarship for being a woman in engineering .
Good for the both of us , but sucks for everyone else who has to pay her bill .
How about a friend of mine who got grants for low income - because he did n't WANT to work .
Those who spend 20-40 hours a week at a job making money to pay the tuition themselves get docked for trying - that 's backwards .
And just to let people know , there is a MUCH cheaper alternative out there now .
Granted , it 's not a well-known university and I personally feel it 's too easy on it 's students , but it IS fully accredited and VERY affordable : [ wgu.edu ] Reply if you want to hear more about this university .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I like that.
Tackle the problem.
Frankly... all the whiners who just went to college for the parties and barely passed can rot in their dept-hole as far as I care.
If you're worth what your mouth claims it is, then you'll pay off any college debt in a few years and in 4-5 have made enough $$$ to come out ahead compared to working minimum wage.
So finding ways to make this PRIVILEGE affordable is really a better approach than whining.
For those who like the government paying for everything remember that in 10-15 years you come out behind again because of higher tax rates... the more work the government does FOR its citizens the more is wasted on bureaucracy.
Other possibilities to reduce costs include treating all students equally - granting scholarships based on performance, not ethnicity, gender, income.
For example, my wife got a sweet scholarship for being a woman in engineering.
Good for the both of us, but sucks for everyone else who has to pay her bill.
How about a friend of mine who got grants for low income - because he didn't WANT to work.
Those who spend 20-40 hours a week at a job making money to pay the tuition themselves get docked for trying - that's backwards.
And just to let people know, there is a MUCH cheaper alternative out there now.
Granted, it's not a well-known university and I personally feel it's too easy on it's students, but it IS fully accredited and VERY affordable:    [wgu.edu] 
Reply if you want to hear more about this university.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789297</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790089</id>
	<title>No one held a gun at your head</title>
	<author>nedlohs</author>
	<datestamp>1255887660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>and made you sign up for the loans.</p><p>Just like no one held a gun to the heads of the idiots who refinanced their house so they could go on vacation.</p><p>But expecting to not have to live up to your agreements is the American way I guess.</p><p>Imagine how pissed he will be when (after adjusting for inflation) he sees people paying 1/10th of what he paid after the student loan system goes belly up and colleges suddenly have to charge market prices instead of inflated government subsidy prices. That will likely be tempered some by seeing that fixed rate debt evaporate to inflation I guess.</p><p>And he's an idiot since student loans are essentially credit card debt not mortgage debt - there's no security. If all those bankruptcy special cases weren't there then they'd be running at 25\%.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and made you sign up for the loans.Just like no one held a gun to the heads of the idiots who refinanced their house so they could go on vacation.But expecting to not have to live up to your agreements is the American way I guess.Imagine how pissed he will be when ( after adjusting for inflation ) he sees people paying 1/10th of what he paid after the student loan system goes belly up and colleges suddenly have to charge market prices instead of inflated government subsidy prices .
That will likely be tempered some by seeing that fixed rate debt evaporate to inflation I guess.And he 's an idiot since student loans are essentially credit card debt not mortgage debt - there 's no security .
If all those bankruptcy special cases were n't there then they 'd be running at 25 \ % .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and made you sign up for the loans.Just like no one held a gun to the heads of the idiots who refinanced their house so they could go on vacation.But expecting to not have to live up to your agreements is the American way I guess.Imagine how pissed he will be when (after adjusting for inflation) he sees people paying 1/10th of what he paid after the student loan system goes belly up and colleges suddenly have to charge market prices instead of inflated government subsidy prices.
That will likely be tempered some by seeing that fixed rate debt evaporate to inflation I guess.And he's an idiot since student loans are essentially credit card debt not mortgage debt - there's no security.
If all those bankruptcy special cases weren't there then they'd be running at 25\%.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789723</id>
	<title>How about a little cheese with the whine?</title>
	<author>j33px0r</author>
	<datestamp>1255885140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>So you have two degrees, no job and 85k in loans at a high interest rate?  Hmm...sounds like a jack-ass to me.  Did you really believe your high school counselor when he/she said that going to college would do something for you?  Did you believe that a chemistry course would make you employable?  Oh, I'm sorry...you took a couple programming classes and made it through the weed-out portion.  You deserve to make 6 figures.  I'm sorry if I'm not sympathetic but my bachelors took some real effort.  Now you can get half the degree by taking AP courses in High School.  My masters was challenging but nowadays its just 30 hours of bs.  And my Ph.D.? Get your own with 3/4 of the classes online with no peer interaction.  Grow up.  College education is a business with a major portion being the financial strapping of American youths into financial debt.  Not to be a conspiracy theorist but it the writings on the wall.</htmltext>
<tokenext>So you have two degrees , no job and 85k in loans at a high interest rate ?
Hmm...sounds like a jack-ass to me .
Did you really believe your high school counselor when he/she said that going to college would do something for you ?
Did you believe that a chemistry course would make you employable ?
Oh , I 'm sorry...you took a couple programming classes and made it through the weed-out portion .
You deserve to make 6 figures .
I 'm sorry if I 'm not sympathetic but my bachelors took some real effort .
Now you can get half the degree by taking AP courses in High School .
My masters was challenging but nowadays its just 30 hours of bs .
And my Ph.D. ?
Get your own with 3/4 of the classes online with no peer interaction .
Grow up .
College education is a business with a major portion being the financial strapping of American youths into financial debt .
Not to be a conspiracy theorist but it the writings on the wall .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So you have two degrees, no job and 85k in loans at a high interest rate?
Hmm...sounds like a jack-ass to me.
Did you really believe your high school counselor when he/she said that going to college would do something for you?
Did you believe that a chemistry course would make you employable?
Oh, I'm sorry...you took a couple programming classes and made it through the weed-out portion.
You deserve to make 6 figures.
I'm sorry if I'm not sympathetic but my bachelors took some real effort.
Now you can get half the degree by taking AP courses in High School.
My masters was challenging but nowadays its just 30 hours of bs.
And my Ph.D.?
Get your own with 3/4 of the classes online with no peer interaction.
Grow up.
College education is a business with a major portion being the financial strapping of American youths into financial debt.
Not to be a conspiracy theorist but it the writings on the wall.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795833</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Uberbah</author>
	<datestamp>1255974120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Paying for that "free" education is a key part of the educational experience. </i></p><p>And getting an annual colonoscopy is a key part of your life after turning 50.  Doesn't mean that it's a pleasant part of life, and if it were to become unnecessary, why continue to do it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Paying for that " free " education is a key part of the educational experience .
And getting an annual colonoscopy is a key part of your life after turning 50 .
Does n't mean that it 's a pleasant part of life , and if it were to become unnecessary , why continue to do it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Paying for that "free" education is a key part of the educational experience.
And getting an annual colonoscopy is a key part of your life after turning 50.
Doesn't mean that it's a pleasant part of life, and if it were to become unnecessary, why continue to do it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790463</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790849</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255894980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>College education is rarely worth the money charged; an exception can be found in the hard sciences and engineering. Nowadays, if people go out and get a journeyman's certificate in a skilled trade, they'll be much better off financially, and they'll have useful skills on top of it, plus they can become productive and earn wages immediately.</p><p>As for health care, it should be treated as a "right", because the consequences for the rest of society can be potentially dire. It's simple epidemiology, if the person who serves you your burger and fries is paid minimum wage with no benefits, they can and will come in while sick, and you'll get whatever they have with your burger and fries. If "everything" includes not only ketchup, mustard, and relish, but also a dose of H1N1 or something else, you'll be worse off, even if you have high dollar medical insurance. The same goes for the janitors who clean out your office... sneeze into hand, grab doorknob, leave, you grab the doorknob the next morning, and then scratch your nose. Bingo. "No man is an island... send not to ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee..."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>College education is rarely worth the money charged ; an exception can be found in the hard sciences and engineering .
Nowadays , if people go out and get a journeyman 's certificate in a skilled trade , they 'll be much better off financially , and they 'll have useful skills on top of it , plus they can become productive and earn wages immediately.As for health care , it should be treated as a " right " , because the consequences for the rest of society can be potentially dire .
It 's simple epidemiology , if the person who serves you your burger and fries is paid minimum wage with no benefits , they can and will come in while sick , and you 'll get whatever they have with your burger and fries .
If " everything " includes not only ketchup , mustard , and relish , but also a dose of H1N1 or something else , you 'll be worse off , even if you have high dollar medical insurance .
The same goes for the janitors who clean out your office... sneeze into hand , grab doorknob , leave , you grab the doorknob the next morning , and then scratch your nose .
Bingo. " No man is an island... send not to ask for whom the bell tolls , it tolls for thee... "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>College education is rarely worth the money charged; an exception can be found in the hard sciences and engineering.
Nowadays, if people go out and get a journeyman's certificate in a skilled trade, they'll be much better off financially, and they'll have useful skills on top of it, plus they can become productive and earn wages immediately.As for health care, it should be treated as a "right", because the consequences for the rest of society can be potentially dire.
It's simple epidemiology, if the person who serves you your burger and fries is paid minimum wage with no benefits, they can and will come in while sick, and you'll get whatever they have with your burger and fries.
If "everything" includes not only ketchup, mustard, and relish, but also a dose of H1N1 or something else, you'll be worse off, even if you have high dollar medical insurance.
The same goes for the janitors who clean out your office... sneeze into hand, grab doorknob, leave, you grab the doorknob the next morning, and then scratch your nose.
Bingo. "No man is an island... send not to ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee..."</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790247</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794353</id>
	<title>Student loans are a scam</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255968000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Student loans are a scam.  It's as much of a scam as 'having a better life' or 'getting an education'.  It's a lie that you are told as a child in order to get compliance.</p><p>I'm 125k in debt, and I already filed bankruptcy.  I panhandle for money and I read slashdot at the library.  Come visit if you're on 9th avenue sometime!  I own nothing but a pretty piece of paper hanging on the inside of my cardboard box.</p><p>Getting an education was the worst decision of my life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Student loans are a scam .
It 's as much of a scam as 'having a better life ' or 'getting an education' .
It 's a lie that you are told as a child in order to get compliance.I 'm 125k in debt , and I already filed bankruptcy .
I panhandle for money and I read slashdot at the library .
Come visit if you 're on 9th avenue sometime !
I own nothing but a pretty piece of paper hanging on the inside of my cardboard box.Getting an education was the worst decision of my life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Student loans are a scam.
It's as much of a scam as 'having a better life' or 'getting an education'.
It's a lie that you are told as a child in order to get compliance.I'm 125k in debt, and I already filed bankruptcy.
I panhandle for money and I read slashdot at the library.
Come visit if you're on 9th avenue sometime!
I own nothing but a pretty piece of paper hanging on the inside of my cardboard box.Getting an education was the worst decision of my life.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791051</id>
	<title>UK</title>
	<author>Spad</author>
	<datestamp>1255984140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It amazes me that people put up with that level of interest on student loans in the US. In the UK, my student loan is currently at 0\% interest (Due to the current base interest rates) and it was only at 3.5\% the last couple of years with base rates of ~5\%. If you were lucky enough to take out a loan before 1998, then you're currently paying <a href="http://www.slc.co.uk/statistics/facts\_figures.html" title="slc.co.uk">-0.4\%</a> [slc.co.uk] because the interest is linked to the Retail Prices Index (RPI) and we're currently experiencing slight deflation by that measure.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It amazes me that people put up with that level of interest on student loans in the US .
In the UK , my student loan is currently at 0 \ % interest ( Due to the current base interest rates ) and it was only at 3.5 \ % the last couple of years with base rates of ~ 5 \ % .
If you were lucky enough to take out a loan before 1998 , then you 're currently paying -0.4 \ % [ slc.co.uk ] because the interest is linked to the Retail Prices Index ( RPI ) and we 're currently experiencing slight deflation by that measure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It amazes me that people put up with that level of interest on student loans in the US.
In the UK, my student loan is currently at 0\% interest (Due to the current base interest rates) and it was only at 3.5\% the last couple of years with base rates of ~5\%.
If you were lucky enough to take out a loan before 1998, then you're currently paying -0.4\% [slc.co.uk] because the interest is linked to the Retail Prices Index (RPI) and we're currently experiencing slight deflation by that measure.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790189</id>
	<title>Re:The worthlessness of "education"</title>
	<author>Stiletto</author>
	<datestamp>1255888500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Try being a surgeon or a lawyer without an education.</i></p><p>These professions are TERRIBLE examples, because they each have organizations set up (the AMA and ABA) for the express purpose of artificially limiting the number of people in their fields based on lofty criteria like "did this person attend college?"</p><p>Without the AMA and ABA, you WOULDN'T have to spend years in college to become a surgeon or lawyer--a trade school would be just as good.  Frankly, I don't care if my surgeon went to college and learned about medieval history as long as he's skilled in his trade.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Try being a surgeon or a lawyer without an education.These professions are TERRIBLE examples , because they each have organizations set up ( the AMA and ABA ) for the express purpose of artificially limiting the number of people in their fields based on lofty criteria like " did this person attend college ?
" Without the AMA and ABA , you WOULD N'T have to spend years in college to become a surgeon or lawyer--a trade school would be just as good .
Frankly , I do n't care if my surgeon went to college and learned about medieval history as long as he 's skilled in his trade .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Try being a surgeon or a lawyer without an education.These professions are TERRIBLE examples, because they each have organizations set up (the AMA and ABA) for the express purpose of artificially limiting the number of people in their fields based on lofty criteria like "did this person attend college?
"Without the AMA and ABA, you WOULDN'T have to spend years in college to become a surgeon or lawyer--a trade school would be just as good.
Frankly, I don't care if my surgeon went to college and learned about medieval history as long as he's skilled in his trade.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789893</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789281</id>
	<title>Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>edwebdev</author>
	<datestamp>1255882200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm in a situation similar to the person featured in the article - interest accrues on my student loans at a rate of several thousand dollars per year, even WHILE I'M IN GRAD SCHOOL and have no reasonable means to pay down the principal. My tuition, even at a public undergraduate institution, was $30k + per year. I personally know many, many other grad students in my position. It's outrageous that the people the government and banks should be supporting - those who spend nearly a decade earning an advanced education - are being fleeced left and right.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm in a situation similar to the person featured in the article - interest accrues on my student loans at a rate of several thousand dollars per year , even WHILE I 'M IN GRAD SCHOOL and have no reasonable means to pay down the principal .
My tuition , even at a public undergraduate institution , was $ 30k + per year .
I personally know many , many other grad students in my position .
It 's outrageous that the people the government and banks should be supporting - those who spend nearly a decade earning an advanced education - are being fleeced left and right .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm in a situation similar to the person featured in the article - interest accrues on my student loans at a rate of several thousand dollars per year, even WHILE I'M IN GRAD SCHOOL and have no reasonable means to pay down the principal.
My tuition, even at a public undergraduate institution, was $30k + per year.
I personally know many, many other grad students in my position.
It's outrageous that the people the government and banks should be supporting - those who spend nearly a decade earning an advanced education - are being fleeced left and right.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29796885</id>
	<title>Move to a foreign country.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255978320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can't very well collect your debt if the person you're trying to collect from lives in South America or China.  If you have a desirable trade, consider spending some time learning the trade in this country while working and go on vacation to places you find interesting.  If you do move, you will be well received.</p><p>It's disgusting the amount that is charged for higher education in this country; seriously, the same algebra course at one end of the country costs 10 times at the other end and isn't necessarily any better, why is this?  It's disgusting banks make unsecured loans with depositors money, playing fast and loose with something that isn't theirs to students then charge outrageous interest without realizing you're enslaving someone for 10-20 years.  It's disgusting schools offer curriculum in things that don't have any pertinence to reality; History, Engineering, Fashion Design, these things have uses.  To Politicians, Diplomats, Lawyers and linguists history is an important thing to know; engineering is just as important when you're making clothing as when you're building a bridge.  Ethnic Studies, Women's studies (strange how there's no mens studies), Management courses, Art, these are all largely pointless and there should be no "degree" in art; there are no jobs in art.  They should be hobby classes.</p><p>Education is done through the certification method; grades k-12 plus dumb tests and other junk; the teachers suck at it too.  Education in this country does not teach how to be curious, to ask the right questions, and to find answers.  Instead if discourages kids from doing this by making them think this is boring.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You ca n't very well collect your debt if the person you 're trying to collect from lives in South America or China .
If you have a desirable trade , consider spending some time learning the trade in this country while working and go on vacation to places you find interesting .
If you do move , you will be well received.It 's disgusting the amount that is charged for higher education in this country ; seriously , the same algebra course at one end of the country costs 10 times at the other end and is n't necessarily any better , why is this ?
It 's disgusting banks make unsecured loans with depositors money , playing fast and loose with something that is n't theirs to students then charge outrageous interest without realizing you 're enslaving someone for 10-20 years .
It 's disgusting schools offer curriculum in things that do n't have any pertinence to reality ; History , Engineering , Fashion Design , these things have uses .
To Politicians , Diplomats , Lawyers and linguists history is an important thing to know ; engineering is just as important when you 're making clothing as when you 're building a bridge .
Ethnic Studies , Women 's studies ( strange how there 's no mens studies ) , Management courses , Art , these are all largely pointless and there should be no " degree " in art ; there are no jobs in art .
They should be hobby classes.Education is done through the certification method ; grades k-12 plus dumb tests and other junk ; the teachers suck at it too .
Education in this country does not teach how to be curious , to ask the right questions , and to find answers .
Instead if discourages kids from doing this by making them think this is boring .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can't very well collect your debt if the person you're trying to collect from lives in South America or China.
If you have a desirable trade, consider spending some time learning the trade in this country while working and go on vacation to places you find interesting.
If you do move, you will be well received.It's disgusting the amount that is charged for higher education in this country; seriously, the same algebra course at one end of the country costs 10 times at the other end and isn't necessarily any better, why is this?
It's disgusting banks make unsecured loans with depositors money, playing fast and loose with something that isn't theirs to students then charge outrageous interest without realizing you're enslaving someone for 10-20 years.
It's disgusting schools offer curriculum in things that don't have any pertinence to reality; History, Engineering, Fashion Design, these things have uses.
To Politicians, Diplomats, Lawyers and linguists history is an important thing to know; engineering is just as important when you're making clothing as when you're building a bridge.
Ethnic Studies, Women's studies (strange how there's no mens studies), Management courses, Art, these are all largely pointless and there should be no "degree" in art; there are no jobs in art.
They should be hobby classes.Education is done through the certification method; grades k-12 plus dumb tests and other junk; the teachers suck at it too.
Education in this country does not teach how to be curious, to ask the right questions, and to find answers.
Instead if discourages kids from doing this by making them think this is boring.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29797557</id>
	<title>Wahhh, wahhh...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255980840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I did not not take advantage of tens of thousands of scholarship/grant opportunities available to me, I did not work during school, my parents weren't financially savvy enough to underwrite my degree, so I took out tens of thousands in loans and now I am being asked to pay them back?!</p><p>Just because deadbeat homeowners, banking/car companies were given bailouts, doesn't make it right for you to expect others to pay for your obligations. You are a rational human being who made the conscious decision to take loans out at a certain interest percentage. There are programs to help students who can prove they are looking for a job or have a full-time job that isn't paying as much as anticipated in order to help students pay their bills. The fact of the matter is, no one put a gun to your head and forced you to take student loans, and anyone who tells you that any student had to take loans is ignorant of the other options. If you have no plan to pay for your privileged, your privileged, foray into higher education, then you are just as bad a the home owner making 20,000 a year living in a 250,000 dollar house with an adjustable rate mortgage. Just how you can make as many excuses for not having to satisfy your financial obligations, I can point out the numerous amount of options you had to avoid this situation, and still have to take care of your debts.</p><p>Demanding a handout isn't what's fair; it's what's easy. But some people have shame, and some don't.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I did not not take advantage of tens of thousands of scholarship/grant opportunities available to me , I did not work during school , my parents were n't financially savvy enough to underwrite my degree , so I took out tens of thousands in loans and now I am being asked to pay them back ?
! Just because deadbeat homeowners , banking/car companies were given bailouts , does n't make it right for you to expect others to pay for your obligations .
You are a rational human being who made the conscious decision to take loans out at a certain interest percentage .
There are programs to help students who can prove they are looking for a job or have a full-time job that is n't paying as much as anticipated in order to help students pay their bills .
The fact of the matter is , no one put a gun to your head and forced you to take student loans , and anyone who tells you that any student had to take loans is ignorant of the other options .
If you have no plan to pay for your privileged , your privileged , foray into higher education , then you are just as bad a the home owner making 20,000 a year living in a 250,000 dollar house with an adjustable rate mortgage .
Just how you can make as many excuses for not having to satisfy your financial obligations , I can point out the numerous amount of options you had to avoid this situation , and still have to take care of your debts.Demanding a handout is n't what 's fair ; it 's what 's easy .
But some people have shame , and some do n't .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I did not not take advantage of tens of thousands of scholarship/grant opportunities available to me, I did not work during school, my parents weren't financially savvy enough to underwrite my degree, so I took out tens of thousands in loans and now I am being asked to pay them back?
!Just because deadbeat homeowners, banking/car companies were given bailouts, doesn't make it right for you to expect others to pay for your obligations.
You are a rational human being who made the conscious decision to take loans out at a certain interest percentage.
There are programs to help students who can prove they are looking for a job or have a full-time job that isn't paying as much as anticipated in order to help students pay their bills.
The fact of the matter is, no one put a gun to your head and forced you to take student loans, and anyone who tells you that any student had to take loans is ignorant of the other options.
If you have no plan to pay for your privileged, your privileged, foray into higher education, then you are just as bad a the home owner making 20,000 a year living in a 250,000 dollar house with an adjustable rate mortgage.
Just how you can make as many excuses for not having to satisfy your financial obligations, I can point out the numerous amount of options you had to avoid this situation, and still have to take care of your debts.Demanding a handout isn't what's fair; it's what's easy.
But some people have shame, and some don't.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789995</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>definate</author>
	<datestamp>1255887000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Also, what did he study, and how well did he do at it?</p><p>I've just graduated with a lot of people, everyone I know who did a valuable subject (Something in commerce, Engineering, IT, or similar) has obtained a job straight out of Uni, even in this economy. Sure it was maybe a little more competitive, but if you've got a solid degree, and aren't beneath working in lower positions, or for less money, there's always work.</p><p>Though most of my friends have done well, and some have done awesomely (Damn Petroleum Engineers!).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Also , what did he study , and how well did he do at it ? I 've just graduated with a lot of people , everyone I know who did a valuable subject ( Something in commerce , Engineering , IT , or similar ) has obtained a job straight out of Uni , even in this economy .
Sure it was maybe a little more competitive , but if you 've got a solid degree , and are n't beneath working in lower positions , or for less money , there 's always work.Though most of my friends have done well , and some have done awesomely ( Damn Petroleum Engineers !
) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Also, what did he study, and how well did he do at it?I've just graduated with a lot of people, everyone I know who did a valuable subject (Something in commerce, Engineering, IT, or similar) has obtained a job straight out of Uni, even in this economy.
Sure it was maybe a little more competitive, but if you've got a solid degree, and aren't beneath working in lower positions, or for less money, there's always work.Though most of my friends have done well, and some have done awesomely (Damn Petroleum Engineers!
).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789395</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790203</id>
	<title>Gary North knows about colleges</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255888620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Read his article here http://www.garynorth.com/public/department89.cfm and follow all of the links in the body. Then read this - http://www.lowestcostcolleges.com/ - for a thorough explanation on how to get a college degree quickly and cheaply.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Read his article here http : //www.garynorth.com/public/department89.cfm and follow all of the links in the body .
Then read this - http : //www.lowestcostcolleges.com/ - for a thorough explanation on how to get a college degree quickly and cheaply .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Read his article here http://www.garynorth.com/public/department89.cfm and follow all of the links in the body.
Then read this - http://www.lowestcostcolleges.com/ - for a thorough explanation on how to get a college degree quickly and cheaply.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790171</id>
	<title>Re:The worthlessness of "education"</title>
	<author>shermo</author>
	<datestamp>1255888320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> Knowledge is needed at most jobs, education in all honesty is not. I think its time for society to realize this.</p></div><p>I think you have that the wrong way 'round. Knowledge isn't needed - like you said, it's available at the click of a 'google search'. Education is what you need to be able to do something useful with the knowledge you've just found.</p><p>I can't remember the characteristic funtion of the normal distribution, but I can look it up on wikipedia and use the education I have to do something useful with it.</p><p>But maybe we're just expressing the same thought with different words.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Knowledge is needed at most jobs , education in all honesty is not .
I think its time for society to realize this.I think you have that the wrong way 'round .
Knowledge is n't needed - like you said , it 's available at the click of a 'google search' .
Education is what you need to be able to do something useful with the knowledge you 've just found.I ca n't remember the characteristic funtion of the normal distribution , but I can look it up on wikipedia and use the education I have to do something useful with it.But maybe we 're just expressing the same thought with different words .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Knowledge is needed at most jobs, education in all honesty is not.
I think its time for society to realize this.I think you have that the wrong way 'round.
Knowledge isn't needed - like you said, it's available at the click of a 'google search'.
Education is what you need to be able to do something useful with the knowledge you've just found.I can't remember the characteristic funtion of the normal distribution, but I can look it up on wikipedia and use the education I have to do something useful with it.But maybe we're just expressing the same thought with different words.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789313</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793081</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>atamido</author>
	<datestamp>1255962540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would love to hear that you work for Austin Community College.</p><p>For those that don't know, Austin is home to the largest university in the US, The University of Texas, which has around 60,000 students.  Austin Community College has around 40,000 and is currently on track to surpass the size of UT by 2015.</p><p>Of the folks I talk to that take classes at both, most tend to prefer the classes at ACC due to much smaller class sizes and interaction with the professors.  The largest class I've seen at ACC is 30 students.  At UT it is measured in hundreds. The funny thing is that tuition is an order of magnitude higher at UT.</p><p>So how do you get away with charging 10 times as much for classes with 10 times the students?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would love to hear that you work for Austin Community College.For those that do n't know , Austin is home to the largest university in the US , The University of Texas , which has around 60,000 students .
Austin Community College has around 40,000 and is currently on track to surpass the size of UT by 2015.Of the folks I talk to that take classes at both , most tend to prefer the classes at ACC due to much smaller class sizes and interaction with the professors .
The largest class I 've seen at ACC is 30 students .
At UT it is measured in hundreds .
The funny thing is that tuition is an order of magnitude higher at UT.So how do you get away with charging 10 times as much for classes with 10 times the students ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would love to hear that you work for Austin Community College.For those that don't know, Austin is home to the largest university in the US, The University of Texas, which has around 60,000 students.
Austin Community College has around 40,000 and is currently on track to surpass the size of UT by 2015.Of the folks I talk to that take classes at both, most tend to prefer the classes at ACC due to much smaller class sizes and interaction with the professors.
The largest class I've seen at ACC is 30 students.
At UT it is measured in hundreds.
The funny thing is that tuition is an order of magnitude higher at UT.So how do you get away with charging 10 times as much for classes with 10 times the students?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789845</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29796087</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255975320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So, if you are a blue collar worker you are a slob that can't swing a hammer? The idea that you can have a country of all white collar workers is flawed. If you don't create and manufacture, you have nothing for the White collar people to manage, engineer, etc... We need to get real skill back into this country (USA) and stop feeding kids the lie that they are failures without a degree. If college wasn't "maditory" then the prices of an education might come down to reasonable levels.</p><p>Hell, I'd like to see people go to work for a while, then go back to school when they have some life experience and the real motivation to get something out of it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So , if you are a blue collar worker you are a slob that ca n't swing a hammer ?
The idea that you can have a country of all white collar workers is flawed .
If you do n't create and manufacture , you have nothing for the White collar people to manage , engineer , etc... We need to get real skill back into this country ( USA ) and stop feeding kids the lie that they are failures without a degree .
If college was n't " maditory " then the prices of an education might come down to reasonable levels.Hell , I 'd like to see people go to work for a while , then go back to school when they have some life experience and the real motivation to get something out of it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So, if you are a blue collar worker you are a slob that can't swing a hammer?
The idea that you can have a country of all white collar workers is flawed.
If you don't create and manufacture, you have nothing for the White collar people to manage, engineer, etc... We need to get real skill back into this country (USA) and stop feeding kids the lie that they are failures without a degree.
If college wasn't "maditory" then the prices of an education might come down to reasonable levels.Hell, I'd like to see people go to work for a while, then go back to school when they have some life experience and the real motivation to get something out of it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790735</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>DerekLyons</author>
	<datestamp>1255893600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.</p></div></blockquote><p>Your conclusion fails to follow from your premise.  Paying for someone's degree in Advanced Featherbedding just because they want on does little for the nation but produce yet another idiot with a meaningless degree and a sense of entitlement.<br>
&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp; </p><blockquote><div><p>But when a government just wants dumb consumers, then it's a very different matter.</p></div></blockquote><p>A nice soundbite, but nothing else.<br>
&nbsp; <br>Personally, I think a system that makes people <i>work</i> to pay for their education works just fine.  It sorts out the those with the skills and dedication to obtain an advanced education from those without - the same skills and dedication they will hopefully employ in whatever career that education prepares them for.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain , because that 's part of believing that the nation 's most most important resource is its people.Your conclusion fails to follow from your premise .
Paying for someone 's degree in Advanced Featherbedding just because they want on does little for the nation but produce yet another idiot with a meaningless degree and a sense of entitlement .
    But when a government just wants dumb consumers , then it 's a very different matter.A nice soundbite , but nothing else .
  Personally , I think a system that makes people work to pay for their education works just fine .
It sorts out the those with the skills and dedication to obtain an advanced education from those without - the same skills and dedication they will hopefully employ in whatever career that education prepares them for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.Your conclusion fails to follow from your premise.
Paying for someone's degree in Advanced Featherbedding just because they want on does little for the nation but produce yet another idiot with a meaningless degree and a sense of entitlement.
  
  But when a government just wants dumb consumers, then it's a very different matter.A nice soundbite, but nothing else.
  Personally, I think a system that makes people work to pay for their education works just fine.
It sorts out the those with the skills and dedication to obtain an advanced education from those without - the same skills and dedication they will hopefully employ in whatever career that education prepares them for.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29796789</id>
	<title>Waaa, Waaa, frikin' WAAAAA!-or STFU!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255978020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"We need to get away from this pervasive mentality of "Things didn't go exactly according to the PLAN. The Government needs to save me!!!! WAAAAAAAA"."</p><p>Funny a lot of the present economic problems that borrowers are under were directly or indirectly brought about because of the government. And even when it wasn't (9/11) or a failed health-care system were anyone can become bankrupt. The present problem still remains were there's a predatory system (kind of like the credit card system) that gains more from people defaulting than working with borrowers who desire to pay (the part you missed in your blame game because you didn't read the story links provided).</p><p>Also why is education three times the cost of inflation were any other goods and service in a depressed economy is adjusting downward? Me thinks borrowers aren't the only one's not dealing with reality.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" We need to get away from this pervasive mentality of " Things did n't go exactly according to the PLAN .
The Government needs to save me ! ! ! !
WAAAAAAAA " . " Funny a lot of the present economic problems that borrowers are under were directly or indirectly brought about because of the government .
And even when it was n't ( 9/11 ) or a failed health-care system were anyone can become bankrupt .
The present problem still remains were there 's a predatory system ( kind of like the credit card system ) that gains more from people defaulting than working with borrowers who desire to pay ( the part you missed in your blame game because you did n't read the story links provided ) .Also why is education three times the cost of inflation were any other goods and service in a depressed economy is adjusting downward ?
Me thinks borrowers are n't the only one 's not dealing with reality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"We need to get away from this pervasive mentality of "Things didn't go exactly according to the PLAN.
The Government needs to save me!!!!
WAAAAAAAA"."Funny a lot of the present economic problems that borrowers are under were directly or indirectly brought about because of the government.
And even when it wasn't (9/11) or a failed health-care system were anyone can become bankrupt.
The present problem still remains were there's a predatory system (kind of like the credit card system) that gains more from people defaulting than working with borrowers who desire to pay (the part you missed in your blame game because you didn't read the story links provided).Also why is education three times the cost of inflation were any other goods and service in a depressed economy is adjusting downward?
Me thinks borrowers aren't the only one's not dealing with reality.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792859</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29799071</id>
	<title>That spokeswoman deserves to be punched</title>
	<author>gubers33</author>
	<datestamp>1255942800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have never hit a woman, but I will punch her in the face if I ever saw her. She is probably one of the people who defaulted. We helped big business when they are the cause of the economy going down the drain. Yet we neglect the future of the nation in helping them. It is hilariously biased against the youth. In all purposes it is agism at its best. All of the congressman went to college on interest rates of less than half of what I am paying, yet they have the balls to raise our interest rates while they are giving billions to car companies who are in trouble by their own doing. The students are in debt do to the fact that college costs are going up at an audacious rate. I am graduating from Penn State this year, when I started going here I was paying $16,000 in four years it has gone up to $22,000. That is $6,000 dollars in 4 years, which is outrageous.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have never hit a woman , but I will punch her in the face if I ever saw her .
She is probably one of the people who defaulted .
We helped big business when they are the cause of the economy going down the drain .
Yet we neglect the future of the nation in helping them .
It is hilariously biased against the youth .
In all purposes it is agism at its best .
All of the congressman went to college on interest rates of less than half of what I am paying , yet they have the balls to raise our interest rates while they are giving billions to car companies who are in trouble by their own doing .
The students are in debt do to the fact that college costs are going up at an audacious rate .
I am graduating from Penn State this year , when I started going here I was paying $ 16,000 in four years it has gone up to $ 22,000 .
That is $ 6,000 dollars in 4 years , which is outrageous .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have never hit a woman, but I will punch her in the face if I ever saw her.
She is probably one of the people who defaulted.
We helped big business when they are the cause of the economy going down the drain.
Yet we neglect the future of the nation in helping them.
It is hilariously biased against the youth.
In all purposes it is agism at its best.
All of the congressman went to college on interest rates of less than half of what I am paying, yet they have the balls to raise our interest rates while they are giving billions to car companies who are in trouble by their own doing.
The students are in debt do to the fact that college costs are going up at an audacious rate.
I am graduating from Penn State this year, when I started going here I was paying $16,000 in four years it has gone up to $22,000.
That is $6,000 dollars in 4 years, which is outrageous.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789899</id>
	<title>Not ALL students are "unworthy" of credit</title>
	<author>scottbomb</author>
	<datestamp>1255886400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm 37 years old with good credit (and a freshman in college). Stafford loans are the ONLY loans where one's credit rating isn't taken into account and that's a real shame. And for those with subsidized loans and pell grants, I don't want to hear any whining from you about interest rates when you were given handout after handout to begin with.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm 37 years old with good credit ( and a freshman in college ) .
Stafford loans are the ONLY loans where one 's credit rating is n't taken into account and that 's a real shame .
And for those with subsidized loans and pell grants , I do n't want to hear any whining from you about interest rates when you were given handout after handout to begin with .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm 37 years old with good credit (and a freshman in college).
Stafford loans are the ONLY loans where one's credit rating isn't taken into account and that's a real shame.
And for those with subsidized loans and pell grants, I don't want to hear any whining from you about interest rates when you were given handout after handout to begin with.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792117</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>Kashgarinn</author>
	<datestamp>1255955700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're assuming that everyone who wants to get educated has the means to support themselves through education.  In many countries with a poor population, like America, that's just wrong.</p><p>In countries where the education is subsidized it doesn't matter whether you're rich or your poor, if you have the drive and dedication to study, you will get far.  You've lowered the barrier of education and increased the net worth of the citizenry by giving the talented, the dedicated a chance to shine no matter their background.</p><p>Healthcare is a completely different beast, you want a public healthcare system to lower cost, to enhance preventative measures and so everyone benefits equally.</p><p>Those who want cost-based healthcare system are just asking for a class-based healthcare system because they feel they are superior to others.</p><p>If you truly uphold to the belief that all people are created equal and should have the same rights, then a subsidized educational system and a publich healthcare system is the next logical step.  If you're against it, then sadly you're nothing but a racist, a bigot, and a class-ist and no better then slavetraders and others who trample on human-rights.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're assuming that everyone who wants to get educated has the means to support themselves through education .
In many countries with a poor population , like America , that 's just wrong.In countries where the education is subsidized it does n't matter whether you 're rich or your poor , if you have the drive and dedication to study , you will get far .
You 've lowered the barrier of education and increased the net worth of the citizenry by giving the talented , the dedicated a chance to shine no matter their background.Healthcare is a completely different beast , you want a public healthcare system to lower cost , to enhance preventative measures and so everyone benefits equally.Those who want cost-based healthcare system are just asking for a class-based healthcare system because they feel they are superior to others.If you truly uphold to the belief that all people are created equal and should have the same rights , then a subsidized educational system and a publich healthcare system is the next logical step .
If you 're against it , then sadly you 're nothing but a racist , a bigot , and a class-ist and no better then slavetraders and others who trample on human-rights .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're assuming that everyone who wants to get educated has the means to support themselves through education.
In many countries with a poor population, like America, that's just wrong.In countries where the education is subsidized it doesn't matter whether you're rich or your poor, if you have the drive and dedication to study, you will get far.
You've lowered the barrier of education and increased the net worth of the citizenry by giving the talented, the dedicated a chance to shine no matter their background.Healthcare is a completely different beast, you want a public healthcare system to lower cost, to enhance preventative measures and so everyone benefits equally.Those who want cost-based healthcare system are just asking for a class-based healthcare system because they feel they are superior to others.If you truly uphold to the belief that all people are created equal and should have the same rights, then a subsidized educational system and a publich healthcare system is the next logical step.
If you're against it, then sadly you're nothing but a racist, a bigot, and a class-ist and no better then slavetraders and others who trample on human-rights.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790247</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794749</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>GravityStar</author>
	<datestamp>1255969800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wrong. The admission selection should be the baseline. Anyone not getting through the selection can go ahead and try to buy themselves in.</p><p>Educated people are a resource of the nation. It's something to be encouraged. Note that with 'educated people' I also include vocational schooling.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wrong .
The admission selection should be the baseline .
Anyone not getting through the selection can go ahead and try to buy themselves in.Educated people are a resource of the nation .
It 's something to be encouraged .
Note that with 'educated people ' I also include vocational schooling .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wrong.
The admission selection should be the baseline.
Anyone not getting through the selection can go ahead and try to buy themselves in.Educated people are a resource of the nation.
It's something to be encouraged.
Note that with 'educated people' I also include vocational schooling.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789467</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29802669</id>
	<title>Proof of the "Education business" in Australia</title>
	<author>Goraek</author>
	<datestamp>1255960500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm in my 3rd degree (Medicine), the Australian system works with government sponsored places (for most students) as well as "full fee paying" places.<br>As a medical student, which is about the most expensive degree you can study, I accrue about $3500 of debt per semester. This amount is the "contribution" I have to make to my tuition costs. Each year, it's probably about ~$8000-9000 when you include some books and equipment, if I was to pay it all up-front.<br>By comparison, an international student prices are currently $41,000 per annum. All values in $AUD and don't include living expenses.</p><p>To highlight some of the above comments about "price matching what the market will tolerate", there has been uproar down here over the past few years about the increases in the proportion of "Full Fee Paying" places.<br>In the past over 90\% of student places were government sponsored in almost any degree, you had to pay a contribution that was accued as debt. This has since swung closer to the centre, there is money to be had and the institutions want it. There has been a remarkable increase in international student numbers, decrease in places for locals... essentially it's all following the money.</p><p>As quirky side note.. WA had it's first private univerisity open about 10 years ago.. an ex-girlfriend went there for a while.<br>While she was there, she didn't get a government sponsored place.. yet their fees were only a little higher than at any of the public uni's (maybe $12,000 per year?). I'm not sure if they had government backing but not the loan system... but it's interesting none the less. Some of the private university's in Australia are EXTORTIONATE (up to $50k per semester), but others have shown that the bottom line cost can be fair.</p><p>Regardless, it astounds me how much money each student brings in.. multiplied the number of bums in seats in the average lecture, divided by the number of staff (my sister is an full-time academic, I earn more in my part-time job).. even counting the number of new buildings, programs and research.. there is a LOT of money making it's way into the tertiary system.</p><p>Lecutre: A stadium of stuffed wallets, all staring at one dude who is talking for a minimum wage.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm in my 3rd degree ( Medicine ) , the Australian system works with government sponsored places ( for most students ) as well as " full fee paying " places.As a medical student , which is about the most expensive degree you can study , I accrue about $ 3500 of debt per semester .
This amount is the " contribution " I have to make to my tuition costs .
Each year , it 's probably about ~ $ 8000-9000 when you include some books and equipment , if I was to pay it all up-front.By comparison , an international student prices are currently $ 41,000 per annum .
All values in $ AUD and do n't include living expenses.To highlight some of the above comments about " price matching what the market will tolerate " , there has been uproar down here over the past few years about the increases in the proportion of " Full Fee Paying " places.In the past over 90 \ % of student places were government sponsored in almost any degree , you had to pay a contribution that was accued as debt .
This has since swung closer to the centre , there is money to be had and the institutions want it .
There has been a remarkable increase in international student numbers , decrease in places for locals... essentially it 's all following the money.As quirky side note.. WA had it 's first private univerisity open about 10 years ago.. an ex-girlfriend went there for a while.While she was there , she did n't get a government sponsored place.. yet their fees were only a little higher than at any of the public uni 's ( maybe $ 12,000 per year ? ) .
I 'm not sure if they had government backing but not the loan system... but it 's interesting none the less .
Some of the private university 's in Australia are EXTORTIONATE ( up to $ 50k per semester ) , but others have shown that the bottom line cost can be fair.Regardless , it astounds me how much money each student brings in.. multiplied the number of bums in seats in the average lecture , divided by the number of staff ( my sister is an full-time academic , I earn more in my part-time job ) .. even counting the number of new buildings , programs and research.. there is a LOT of money making it 's way into the tertiary system.Lecutre : A stadium of stuffed wallets , all staring at one dude who is talking for a minimum wage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm in my 3rd degree (Medicine), the Australian system works with government sponsored places (for most students) as well as "full fee paying" places.As a medical student, which is about the most expensive degree you can study, I accrue about $3500 of debt per semester.
This amount is the "contribution" I have to make to my tuition costs.
Each year, it's probably about ~$8000-9000 when you include some books and equipment, if I was to pay it all up-front.By comparison, an international student prices are currently $41,000 per annum.
All values in $AUD and don't include living expenses.To highlight some of the above comments about "price matching what the market will tolerate", there has been uproar down here over the past few years about the increases in the proportion of "Full Fee Paying" places.In the past over 90\% of student places were government sponsored in almost any degree, you had to pay a contribution that was accued as debt.
This has since swung closer to the centre, there is money to be had and the institutions want it.
There has been a remarkable increase in international student numbers, decrease in places for locals... essentially it's all following the money.As quirky side note.. WA had it's first private univerisity open about 10 years ago.. an ex-girlfriend went there for a while.While she was there, she didn't get a government sponsored place.. yet their fees were only a little higher than at any of the public uni's (maybe $12,000 per year?).
I'm not sure if they had government backing but not the loan system... but it's interesting none the less.
Some of the private university's in Australia are EXTORTIONATE (up to $50k per semester), but others have shown that the bottom line cost can be fair.Regardless, it astounds me how much money each student brings in.. multiplied the number of bums in seats in the average lecture, divided by the number of staff (my sister is an full-time academic, I earn more in my part-time job).. even counting the number of new buildings, programs and research.. there is a LOT of money making it's way into the tertiary system.Lecutre: A stadium of stuffed wallets, all staring at one dude who is talking for a minimum wage.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789395</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>SydShamino</author>
	<datestamp>1255883040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Honestly, yeah.  If you went to a pricey private school, then couldn't get a job, you overspent.  Maybe you'll make your kids go to a public school, and then the expensive private schools will lower their rates or go out of business.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Honestly , yeah .
If you went to a pricey private school , then could n't get a job , you overspent .
Maybe you 'll make your kids go to a public school , and then the expensive private schools will lower their rates or go out of business .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Honestly, yeah.
If you went to a pricey private school, then couldn't get a job, you overspent.
Maybe you'll make your kids go to a public school, and then the expensive private schools will lower their rates or go out of business.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789195</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790857</id>
	<title>Re:not the real problem</title>
	<author>phantomfive</author>
	<datestamp>1255895040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Awesomest comment in the entire discussion (and that includes<a href="http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1408995&amp;cid=29790247" title="slashdot.org">the comment I made</a> [slashdot.org]).  I hope you get modded up to five and appear as the first comment in the discussion.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Awesomest comment in the entire discussion ( and that includesthe comment I made [ slashdot.org ] ) .
I hope you get modded up to five and appear as the first comment in the discussion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Awesomest comment in the entire discussion (and that includesthe comment I made [slashdot.org]).
I hope you get modded up to five and appear as the first comment in the discussion.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789297</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795067</id>
	<title>Re:Lemme get this straight...</title>
	<author>Legion303</author>
	<datestamp>1255971300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The loan in the linked article is an FFEL loan, also known as a "guaranteed student loan." So if the bank doesn't trust the treasury to make good on defaulted loans, it wouldn't make the loans in the first place. It's not "secured" in the sense that the bank can take your house and sell it to someone else, but it's still secured.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The loan in the linked article is an FFEL loan , also known as a " guaranteed student loan .
" So if the bank does n't trust the treasury to make good on defaulted loans , it would n't make the loans in the first place .
It 's not " secured " in the sense that the bank can take your house and sell it to someone else , but it 's still secured .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The loan in the linked article is an FFEL loan, also known as a "guaranteed student loan.
" So if the bank doesn't trust the treasury to make good on defaulted loans, it wouldn't make the loans in the first place.
It's not "secured" in the sense that the bank can take your house and sell it to someone else, but it's still secured.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789879</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792207</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>GravityStar</author>
	<datestamp>1255956600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Schools that are charging their students more than costs? And they receive subsidies?</p><p>My advice? Fix that. Deduct their subsidies to zero if you have to and/or withhold accreditation.</p><p>And have the schools give the students budget lists so that the students know how their tuition is being spent. (10\% for teachers, 6\% infrastructure, 40\% landscaping,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Schools that are charging their students more than costs ?
And they receive subsidies ? My advice ?
Fix that .
Deduct their subsidies to zero if you have to and/or withhold accreditation.And have the schools give the students budget lists so that the students know how their tuition is being spent .
( 10 \ % for teachers , 6 \ % infrastructure , 40 \ % landscaping , ... )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Schools that are charging their students more than costs?
And they receive subsidies?My advice?
Fix that.
Deduct their subsidies to zero if you have to and/or withhold accreditation.And have the schools give the students budget lists so that the students know how their tuition is being spent.
(10\% for teachers, 6\% infrastructure, 40\% landscaping, ...)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789845</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29835855</id>
	<title>Bullshit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1256229420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>All the dumb fucks saying shit like "Man up" and "It's time to pay the piper" or whatever other stupid fucking quote are ignorant assholes.  Yes, we know we signed the papers and borrowed the money. Yes, we want to pay it all back, BUT we want to be treated fairly.</p><p>Tell me this: Why does a student who chose a variable interest rate, get to "lock-in" later when the rate is 3\%, but I'm stuck with 8\%?  That is total bullshit.  The variable rate is the riskier choice and they should have to pay the consequences. Rates go up? So does your variable rate. The government bent us all over and fucked us hard in the ass with no lube when they allowed the people who chose variable to lock in at 3\%.</p><p>What if we allowed all of those people who took ARMs on their house to suddenly lock in at 3\%, so they don't lose their house, while the rest of the responsible home owners get stuck at whatever rate they originally received?  Same thing. Total bullshit.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>All the dumb fucks saying shit like " Man up " and " It 's time to pay the piper " or whatever other stupid fucking quote are ignorant assholes .
Yes , we know we signed the papers and borrowed the money .
Yes , we want to pay it all back , BUT we want to be treated fairly.Tell me this : Why does a student who chose a variable interest rate , get to " lock-in " later when the rate is 3 \ % , but I 'm stuck with 8 \ % ?
That is total bullshit .
The variable rate is the riskier choice and they should have to pay the consequences .
Rates go up ?
So does your variable rate .
The government bent us all over and fucked us hard in the ass with no lube when they allowed the people who chose variable to lock in at 3 \ % .What if we allowed all of those people who took ARMs on their house to suddenly lock in at 3 \ % , so they do n't lose their house , while the rest of the responsible home owners get stuck at whatever rate they originally received ?
Same thing .
Total bullshit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All the dumb fucks saying shit like "Man up" and "It's time to pay the piper" or whatever other stupid fucking quote are ignorant assholes.
Yes, we know we signed the papers and borrowed the money.
Yes, we want to pay it all back, BUT we want to be treated fairly.Tell me this: Why does a student who chose a variable interest rate, get to "lock-in" later when the rate is 3\%, but I'm stuck with 8\%?
That is total bullshit.
The variable rate is the riskier choice and they should have to pay the consequences.
Rates go up?
So does your variable rate.
The government bent us all over and fucked us hard in the ass with no lube when they allowed the people who chose variable to lock in at 3\%.What if we allowed all of those people who took ARMs on their house to suddenly lock in at 3\%, so they don't lose their house, while the rest of the responsible home owners get stuck at whatever rate they originally received?
Same thing.
Total bullshit.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789495</id>
	<title>All Bush's fault</title>
	<author>couch\_warrior</author>
	<datestamp>1255883640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>High student loan interest rates are the result of Bush administration tinkering to increase the profit of lenders. If you believe religiously that corporate profits are the highest moral good possible, there's no end to the suffering you're willing to inflict on regular citizens in order to raise those profits. Bush promoted and signed bills raising student loans from ~2.5\% to over 8\% in some cases. It's that good-old "loot and pillage" economic theory. If you're a Republican over 50 years old, you don't give a d@mn about the future, as long as you wallet is swelling today....</htmltext>
<tokenext>High student loan interest rates are the result of Bush administration tinkering to increase the profit of lenders .
If you believe religiously that corporate profits are the highest moral good possible , there 's no end to the suffering you 're willing to inflict on regular citizens in order to raise those profits .
Bush promoted and signed bills raising student loans from ~ 2.5 \ % to over 8 \ % in some cases .
It 's that good-old " loot and pillage " economic theory .
If you 're a Republican over 50 years old , you do n't give a d @ mn about the future , as long as you wallet is swelling today... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>High student loan interest rates are the result of Bush administration tinkering to increase the profit of lenders.
If you believe religiously that corporate profits are the highest moral good possible, there's no end to the suffering you're willing to inflict on regular citizens in order to raise those profits.
Bush promoted and signed bills raising student loans from ~2.5\% to over 8\% in some cases.
It's that good-old "loot and pillage" economic theory.
If you're a Republican over 50 years old, you don't give a d@mn about the future, as long as you wallet is swelling today....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789575</id>
	<title>Current PLUS Rates - Up to 8.5\% + 4\% Upfront Fee</title>
	<author>theodp</author>
	<datestamp>1255884180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>PLUS loan rates were <a href="http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/parentloans.jsp#04" title="ed.gov">changed to fixed in July 2006</a> [ed.gov], so those receiving loans disbursed from 1998-2006 enjoy the variable 3.28\% rate, while those who started school in 2007 and later will be assessed a fixed 7.9\%-8.5\% rate (in addition to a 4\% upfront fee).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>PLUS loan rates were changed to fixed in July 2006 [ ed.gov ] , so those receiving loans disbursed from 1998-2006 enjoy the variable 3.28 \ % rate , while those who started school in 2007 and later will be assessed a fixed 7.9 \ % -8.5 \ % rate ( in addition to a 4 \ % upfront fee ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PLUS loan rates were changed to fixed in July 2006 [ed.gov], so those receiving loans disbursed from 1998-2006 enjoy the variable 3.28\% rate, while those who started school in 2007 and later will be assessed a fixed 7.9\%-8.5\% rate (in addition to a 4\% upfront fee).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793009</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255962180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Free does not equal forcing other citizens to pay for it.</p><p>I can only imagine that in your world, this free education comes with free room and board as well. Yes, lets subsidize the entire population through 28 while they party in college taking even more watered down courses now that they bottom 40\% have a new birthright.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Free does not equal forcing other citizens to pay for it.I can only imagine that in your world , this free education comes with free room and board as well .
Yes , lets subsidize the entire population through 28 while they party in college taking even more watered down courses now that they bottom 40 \ % have a new birthright .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Free does not equal forcing other citizens to pay for it.I can only imagine that in your world, this free education comes with free room and board as well.
Yes, lets subsidize the entire population through 28 while they party in college taking even more watered down courses now that they bottom 40\% have a new birthright.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790815</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>mjwx</author>
	<datestamp>1255894680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>And I am happy to pay for it. I'm happy to help someone out whenever I can. But geez, if you worked hard through high school, isn't the knowledge you gained from that hard work enough? I mean, you're going to college, you are working hard, and YOU are going to be the primary beneficiary of all your hard work. Do you really want to force someone else to pay for it? If you don't think it's truly worth it, don't do it. If you don't want to penny pinch, then don't; go do something where you don't have to. If it is too costly, then it's probably not worth it. Go do something else.</p></div></blockquote><p>

Spoken like someone who cant think beyond their own pocket.<br> <br>

Because proper education systems increase your wealth as well, the same as proper health systems benefit your health as well. Let me ask you this, would you rather have a nation full of highly educated white collar workers or a nation full of barely educated blue collar slobs barely able to swing a hammer?<br> <br>

Well the white collar workers of course, you cannot compete with the third world on manufacturing whilst maintaining a first world economy. Now if education is difficult to afford then you will end up with a large section of your workforce earning low wages, low wages means that their contributions to tax will also be low as well as the amount of money they have to spend or invest. This means that YOU as the middle class will contribute MORE in tax to maintain the same quality of life or YOU will have to accept a LESS fortunate lifestyle.<br> <br>

If you have more highly educated workers you can attract and create high tech industries which pay higher wages and thus contribute more in tax. This means the as a net result of more people paying more tax YOU pay less tax over all. YOU also benefit from OTHERS spending more disposable income or INVESTING that income which in turn creates more wealth and REDUCES the tax burden on INDIVIDUALS.<br> <br>

I suggest you look at <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HECS#HECS" title="wikipedia.org">HECS</a> [wikipedia.org], a scheme created by the Australian Federal Government which covers the cost of tertiary education for Australians. This is in turn paid back as it is factored into the amount of tax a receiver of HECS pays (I.E. you pay only for the HECS that you have used) at the end of each financial year. In effect the government extends a near zero interest loan with a flexible amortisation schedule, so the tax taken from mr to pay HECS gets returned in full later in life via a reduction in taxes and economic benefits. It's almost like, well like an investment and an investment that has been working for Australia for the last 20 years.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And I am happy to pay for it .
I 'm happy to help someone out whenever I can .
But geez , if you worked hard through high school , is n't the knowledge you gained from that hard work enough ?
I mean , you 're going to college , you are working hard , and YOU are going to be the primary beneficiary of all your hard work .
Do you really want to force someone else to pay for it ?
If you do n't think it 's truly worth it , do n't do it .
If you do n't want to penny pinch , then do n't ; go do something where you do n't have to .
If it is too costly , then it 's probably not worth it .
Go do something else .
Spoken like someone who cant think beyond their own pocket .
Because proper education systems increase your wealth as well , the same as proper health systems benefit your health as well .
Let me ask you this , would you rather have a nation full of highly educated white collar workers or a nation full of barely educated blue collar slobs barely able to swing a hammer ?
Well the white collar workers of course , you can not compete with the third world on manufacturing whilst maintaining a first world economy .
Now if education is difficult to afford then you will end up with a large section of your workforce earning low wages , low wages means that their contributions to tax will also be low as well as the amount of money they have to spend or invest .
This means that YOU as the middle class will contribute MORE in tax to maintain the same quality of life or YOU will have to accept a LESS fortunate lifestyle .
If you have more highly educated workers you can attract and create high tech industries which pay higher wages and thus contribute more in tax .
This means the as a net result of more people paying more tax YOU pay less tax over all .
YOU also benefit from OTHERS spending more disposable income or INVESTING that income which in turn creates more wealth and REDUCES the tax burden on INDIVIDUALS .
I suggest you look at HECS [ wikipedia.org ] , a scheme created by the Australian Federal Government which covers the cost of tertiary education for Australians .
This is in turn paid back as it is factored into the amount of tax a receiver of HECS pays ( I.E .
you pay only for the HECS that you have used ) at the end of each financial year .
In effect the government extends a near zero interest loan with a flexible amortisation schedule , so the tax taken from mr to pay HECS gets returned in full later in life via a reduction in taxes and economic benefits .
It 's almost like , well like an investment and an investment that has been working for Australia for the last 20 years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And I am happy to pay for it.
I'm happy to help someone out whenever I can.
But geez, if you worked hard through high school, isn't the knowledge you gained from that hard work enough?
I mean, you're going to college, you are working hard, and YOU are going to be the primary beneficiary of all your hard work.
Do you really want to force someone else to pay for it?
If you don't think it's truly worth it, don't do it.
If you don't want to penny pinch, then don't; go do something where you don't have to.
If it is too costly, then it's probably not worth it.
Go do something else.
Spoken like someone who cant think beyond their own pocket.
Because proper education systems increase your wealth as well, the same as proper health systems benefit your health as well.
Let me ask you this, would you rather have a nation full of highly educated white collar workers or a nation full of barely educated blue collar slobs barely able to swing a hammer?
Well the white collar workers of course, you cannot compete with the third world on manufacturing whilst maintaining a first world economy.
Now if education is difficult to afford then you will end up with a large section of your workforce earning low wages, low wages means that their contributions to tax will also be low as well as the amount of money they have to spend or invest.
This means that YOU as the middle class will contribute MORE in tax to maintain the same quality of life or YOU will have to accept a LESS fortunate lifestyle.
If you have more highly educated workers you can attract and create high tech industries which pay higher wages and thus contribute more in tax.
This means the as a net result of more people paying more tax YOU pay less tax over all.
YOU also benefit from OTHERS spending more disposable income or INVESTING that income which in turn creates more wealth and REDUCES the tax burden on INDIVIDUALS.
I suggest you look at HECS [wikipedia.org], a scheme created by the Australian Federal Government which covers the cost of tertiary education for Australians.
This is in turn paid back as it is factored into the amount of tax a receiver of HECS pays (I.E.
you pay only for the HECS that you have used) at the end of each financial year.
In effect the government extends a near zero interest loan with a flexible amortisation schedule, so the tax taken from mr to pay HECS gets returned in full later in life via a reduction in taxes and economic benefits.
It's almost like, well like an investment and an investment that has been working for Australia for the last 20 years.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790247</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789955</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255886760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is another choice --- don't go to that school.</p><p>There is always community college for the first two years, which is nearly free (costs less than books here in California).<br>And there is the state university system, which is much cheaper than the UC system or private universities.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is another choice --- do n't go to that school.There is always community college for the first two years , which is nearly free ( costs less than books here in California ) .And there is the state university system , which is much cheaper than the UC system or private universities .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is another choice --- don't go to that school.There is always community college for the first two years, which is nearly free (costs less than books here in California).And there is the state university system, which is much cheaper than the UC system or private universities.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789329</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789403</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>wizardforce</author>
	<datestamp>1255883040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So what you're saying is that even though the system is broken it is your own damn fault for having put up with it to get a college education?  That's not solving anything.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So what you 're saying is that even though the system is broken it is your own damn fault for having put up with it to get a college education ?
That 's not solving anything .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So what you're saying is that even though the system is broken it is your own damn fault for having put up with it to get a college education?
That's not solving anything.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789195</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795035</id>
	<title>Re:credit-unworthy or just greedy?</title>
	<author>CodeBuster</author>
	<datestamp>1255971180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Charging a higher interest rate for "credit-unworthy" people makes it more likely that they'll default, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy</p></div><p>Not every one of them will default. Some of them will pay back the loan at the higher rate which compensates the lenders for the other defaults and the overall higher risk (and students <b>are</b> generally a higher risk). If the interest rates were limited, by law for example, then there would simply be NO student loans to anybody because no private lender will take a risk that doesn't pencil out (i.e. results in negative average returns). Would you rather that there be some student loans, albeit at higher rates, or none at all?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Charging a higher interest rate for " credit-unworthy " people makes it more likely that they 'll default , making it a self-fulfilling prophecyNot every one of them will default .
Some of them will pay back the loan at the higher rate which compensates the lenders for the other defaults and the overall higher risk ( and students are generally a higher risk ) .
If the interest rates were limited , by law for example , then there would simply be NO student loans to anybody because no private lender will take a risk that does n't pencil out ( i.e .
results in negative average returns ) .
Would you rather that there be some student loans , albeit at higher rates , or none at all ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Charging a higher interest rate for "credit-unworthy" people makes it more likely that they'll default, making it a self-fulfilling prophecyNot every one of them will default.
Some of them will pay back the loan at the higher rate which compensates the lenders for the other defaults and the overall higher risk (and students are generally a higher risk).
If the interest rates were limited, by law for example, then there would simply be NO student loans to anybody because no private lender will take a risk that doesn't pencil out (i.e.
results in negative average returns).
Would you rather that there be some student loans, albeit at higher rates, or none at all?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789285</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789765</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>RyoShin</author>
	<datestamp>1255885380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not just that; certainly, like many people getting home loans they couldn't afford, education loan companies have been handing out checks like candy.  But, many universities, especially private ones, repeatedly raise their tuition year after year in order to give an aura of "prestige"--the idea is "we're so expensive that we must be good".  I don't have actual proof of this, but after an in-depth discussion with a long-time professor at my university, he put forth the idea, and it makes a lot of sense to me.  All about the short-term, all about the outward appearance.</p><p>I am one of the poor saps who underestimated the power of loans, over-borrowed (at an already expensive school), and, a year out of college and with no job (despite cumulative two years of internships, I lack experience for every job I've applied), am severely regretting it.  Because of the tough job market and inability to seemingly garner the experience I need to get a job (an unfortunate catch-22), I'm actually working on entering the army just so I can delay/pay my loan, a large part of which my mom has co-signed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not just that ; certainly , like many people getting home loans they could n't afford , education loan companies have been handing out checks like candy .
But , many universities , especially private ones , repeatedly raise their tuition year after year in order to give an aura of " prestige " --the idea is " we 're so expensive that we must be good " .
I do n't have actual proof of this , but after an in-depth discussion with a long-time professor at my university , he put forth the idea , and it makes a lot of sense to me .
All about the short-term , all about the outward appearance.I am one of the poor saps who underestimated the power of loans , over-borrowed ( at an already expensive school ) , and , a year out of college and with no job ( despite cumulative two years of internships , I lack experience for every job I 've applied ) , am severely regretting it .
Because of the tough job market and inability to seemingly garner the experience I need to get a job ( an unfortunate catch-22 ) , I 'm actually working on entering the army just so I can delay/pay my loan , a large part of which my mom has co-signed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not just that; certainly, like many people getting home loans they couldn't afford, education loan companies have been handing out checks like candy.
But, many universities, especially private ones, repeatedly raise their tuition year after year in order to give an aura of "prestige"--the idea is "we're so expensive that we must be good".
I don't have actual proof of this, but after an in-depth discussion with a long-time professor at my university, he put forth the idea, and it makes a lot of sense to me.
All about the short-term, all about the outward appearance.I am one of the poor saps who underestimated the power of loans, over-borrowed (at an already expensive school), and, a year out of college and with no job (despite cumulative two years of internships, I lack experience for every job I've applied), am severely regretting it.
Because of the tough job market and inability to seemingly garner the experience I need to get a job (an unfortunate catch-22), I'm actually working on entering the army just so I can delay/pay my loan, a large part of which my mom has co-signed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789355</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29804669</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>CodeBuster</author>
	<datestamp>1255981800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Just as government contractors and consultants view federal government funds as a never-ending supply of money, colleges view it in a very similar way.</p></div><p>They are right; it is a never-ending supply of money in a perverse sort of way. It is important to remember that money is not the same thing as wealth or at least not when we are talking about the sort of paper fiat currency that passes for money just about everywhere these days. In principle, the Federal Government can create as much money as it wishes to by selling US Treasury bills (more paper) to eager buyers. Usually these T-bills are bought by foreign governments and private individuals both here in the US and abroad, but they can also be bought by the Federal Reserve as reserves to loan against (effectively creating money out of thin air...poof). At least in theory all of this is backed by the  "the full faith and credit of the United States government" to pay you with...more paper. If at any point enough people decide that this system isn't working for them or isn't a good proxy for commodity exchange or barter then all of the paper becomes worthless (and we are heading in that direction rapidly with our record Federal deficits). Granted, this is a rather rough explanation of what is happening but surely we can all see the appeal of being the "first" to spend new money created by the Federal Government in the form of student loans before that money works its way through the economy and the inevitable inflation begins.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just as government contractors and consultants view federal government funds as a never-ending supply of money , colleges view it in a very similar way.They are right ; it is a never-ending supply of money in a perverse sort of way .
It is important to remember that money is not the same thing as wealth or at least not when we are talking about the sort of paper fiat currency that passes for money just about everywhere these days .
In principle , the Federal Government can create as much money as it wishes to by selling US Treasury bills ( more paper ) to eager buyers .
Usually these T-bills are bought by foreign governments and private individuals both here in the US and abroad , but they can also be bought by the Federal Reserve as reserves to loan against ( effectively creating money out of thin air...poof ) .
At least in theory all of this is backed by the " the full faith and credit of the United States government " to pay you with...more paper .
If at any point enough people decide that this system is n't working for them or is n't a good proxy for commodity exchange or barter then all of the paper becomes worthless ( and we are heading in that direction rapidly with our record Federal deficits ) .
Granted , this is a rather rough explanation of what is happening but surely we can all see the appeal of being the " first " to spend new money created by the Federal Government in the form of student loans before that money works its way through the economy and the inevitable inflation begins .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just as government contractors and consultants view federal government funds as a never-ending supply of money, colleges view it in a very similar way.They are right; it is a never-ending supply of money in a perverse sort of way.
It is important to remember that money is not the same thing as wealth or at least not when we are talking about the sort of paper fiat currency that passes for money just about everywhere these days.
In principle, the Federal Government can create as much money as it wishes to by selling US Treasury bills (more paper) to eager buyers.
Usually these T-bills are bought by foreign governments and private individuals both here in the US and abroad, but they can also be bought by the Federal Reserve as reserves to loan against (effectively creating money out of thin air...poof).
At least in theory all of this is backed by the  "the full faith and credit of the United States government" to pay you with...more paper.
If at any point enough people decide that this system isn't working for them or isn't a good proxy for commodity exchange or barter then all of the paper becomes worthless (and we are heading in that direction rapidly with our record Federal deficits).
Granted, this is a rather rough explanation of what is happening but surely we can all see the appeal of being the "first" to spend new money created by the Federal Government in the form of student loans before that money works its way through the economy and the inevitable inflation begins.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789845</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789567</id>
	<title>Re:The worthlessness of "education"</title>
	<author>rseal</author>
	<datestamp>1255884120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You're obviously not acquainted with any Engineering-related fields. Electrical and Computer Engineering fields change/advance on a weekly basis. Same goes for Software-related fields. It's hard to prepare someone for a career that advances at this rate because you still have to start with the basics (e.g. calculus, linear systems, signal processing) and progress towards current technology, which cannot be realistically be reached in 4 years, regardless of what you're told. To say education is completely worthless is a bit of a stretch unless you're speaking about history majors, poetry, liberal arts, music, and so on; and these fields only appear worthless considering the current economic climate.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're obviously not acquainted with any Engineering-related fields .
Electrical and Computer Engineering fields change/advance on a weekly basis .
Same goes for Software-related fields .
It 's hard to prepare someone for a career that advances at this rate because you still have to start with the basics ( e.g .
calculus , linear systems , signal processing ) and progress towards current technology , which can not be realistically be reached in 4 years , regardless of what you 're told .
To say education is completely worthless is a bit of a stretch unless you 're speaking about history majors , poetry , liberal arts , music , and so on ; and these fields only appear worthless considering the current economic climate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're obviously not acquainted with any Engineering-related fields.
Electrical and Computer Engineering fields change/advance on a weekly basis.
Same goes for Software-related fields.
It's hard to prepare someone for a career that advances at this rate because you still have to start with the basics (e.g.
calculus, linear systems, signal processing) and progress towards current technology, which cannot be realistically be reached in 4 years, regardless of what you're told.
To say education is completely worthless is a bit of a stretch unless you're speaking about history majors, poetry, liberal arts, music, and so on; and these fields only appear worthless considering the current economic climate.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789313</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793321</id>
	<title>Re:I wonder why you're not considered credit-worth</title>
	<author>DaveV1.0</author>
	<datestamp>1255963620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or Billy can work while he is in high school, save his money and use it to pay for part of his college instead of all the crap he spends it on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or Billy can work while he is in high school , save his money and use it to pay for part of his college instead of all the crap he spends it on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or Billy can work while he is in high school, save his money and use it to pay for part of his college instead of all the crap he spends it on.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792523</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791341</id>
	<title>Re:The worthlessness of "education"</title>
	<author>Wildclaw</author>
	<datestamp>1255946400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Agreed. And even when actual education is needed, there needs to be questions about how much education. I think any potential programmer could do well with a year to maybe 1 1/2 years of education.</p><p>Basic algorithms (including simple complexity theory). The different ways of programming (functional, OO, declarative). Some basic discrete math and logic. And some other things. But really, you don't need a master's degree. If anything, getting some real life programming experience is more important.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed .
And even when actual education is needed , there needs to be questions about how much education .
I think any potential programmer could do well with a year to maybe 1 1/2 years of education.Basic algorithms ( including simple complexity theory ) .
The different ways of programming ( functional , OO , declarative ) .
Some basic discrete math and logic .
And some other things .
But really , you do n't need a master 's degree .
If anything , getting some real life programming experience is more important .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed.
And even when actual education is needed, there needs to be questions about how much education.
I think any potential programmer could do well with a year to maybe 1 1/2 years of education.Basic algorithms (including simple complexity theory).
The different ways of programming (functional, OO, declarative).
Some basic discrete math and logic.
And some other things.
But really, you don't need a master's degree.
If anything, getting some real life programming experience is more important.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789313</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789437</id>
	<title>In Australia ... (15 years ago anyway)</title>
	<author>balzi</author>
	<datestamp>1255883340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I studied all of my fees were compiled into a thing called a HECS debt which i didnt have to pay off until my annaul salary passed a threshold.<br>The balance of hte loan and the threshold both went up with the CPI. But no interest was ever applied (yes, CPI acted like interest).<br>I never paid it off until about 3-4 years later when we salary went above 29,000.</p><p>I do think the guys got no right to gripe for himself. *but* when he started the course, perhaps the standard homeloan rate was about 8.5\%.<br>In any case, the gov't should be making it easier for students to study, not making money off them for the privelege. Any capitalist can see that to make a good return you should be encouraging the young'uns to get the highest qualification they can, which has some bearing on their eventual tax output. Interest on the loans is a turnoff!</p><p>P.S Should note to those who are talking about tax dodges with student loans - I don't know the US system - but I also got a 15\% bonus for any lump sums paid off my HECS debt over and above the mandatory payments. Makes my experience lightyears ahead of this guys plight.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I studied all of my fees were compiled into a thing called a HECS debt which i didnt have to pay off until my annaul salary passed a threshold.The balance of hte loan and the threshold both went up with the CPI .
But no interest was ever applied ( yes , CPI acted like interest ) .I never paid it off until about 3-4 years later when we salary went above 29,000.I do think the guys got no right to gripe for himself .
* but * when he started the course , perhaps the standard homeloan rate was about 8.5 \ % .In any case , the gov't should be making it easier for students to study , not making money off them for the privelege .
Any capitalist can see that to make a good return you should be encouraging the young'uns to get the highest qualification they can , which has some bearing on their eventual tax output .
Interest on the loans is a turnoff ! P.S Should note to those who are talking about tax dodges with student loans - I do n't know the US system - but I also got a 15 \ % bonus for any lump sums paid off my HECS debt over and above the mandatory payments .
Makes my experience lightyears ahead of this guys plight .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I studied all of my fees were compiled into a thing called a HECS debt which i didnt have to pay off until my annaul salary passed a threshold.The balance of hte loan and the threshold both went up with the CPI.
But no interest was ever applied (yes, CPI acted like interest).I never paid it off until about 3-4 years later when we salary went above 29,000.I do think the guys got no right to gripe for himself.
*but* when he started the course, perhaps the standard homeloan rate was about 8.5\%.In any case, the gov't should be making it easier for students to study, not making money off them for the privelege.
Any capitalist can see that to make a good return you should be encouraging the young'uns to get the highest qualification they can, which has some bearing on their eventual tax output.
Interest on the loans is a turnoff!P.S Should note to those who are talking about tax dodges with student loans - I don't know the US system - but I also got a 15\% bonus for any lump sums paid off my HECS debt over and above the mandatory payments.
Makes my experience lightyears ahead of this guys plight.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795587</id>
	<title>Re:What do you expect?</title>
	<author>DNS-and-BIND</author>
	<datestamp>1255973220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Guess what they got at those "small, private New England colleges with tuition and expenses over 350\% more" that you didn't get? <p>Oh, that's right, an education.  Guess what all that extra money paid for...qualified professors perhaps?  A university is not a job training center like ITT, and must never, ever be judged as such.  If you're figuring out some sort of ROI, you're doing it wrong.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Guess what they got at those " small , private New England colleges with tuition and expenses over 350 \ % more " that you did n't get ?
Oh , that 's right , an education .
Guess what all that extra money paid for...qualified professors perhaps ?
A university is not a job training center like ITT , and must never , ever be judged as such .
If you 're figuring out some sort of ROI , you 're doing it wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Guess what they got at those "small, private New England colleges with tuition and expenses over 350\% more" that you didn't get?
Oh, that's right, an education.
Guess what all that extra money paid for...qualified professors perhaps?
A university is not a job training center like ITT, and must never, ever be judged as such.
If you're figuring out some sort of ROI, you're doing it wrong.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789713</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790463</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255891020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.</p></div><p>Paying for that "free" education is a key part of the educational experience. Besides as PPH and mysidia pointed out, having to pay for your education helps make the education worth something. It's not you, but earlier tonight a slashdotter was whining at me about his interpretation of the world as people creating climate change just so they could live in "convenience and comfort". I suppose the idea is that it is despicable for someone to not wish to sacrifice. I must admit I'm starting to see their point of vieww now that I am reading throughout this story about people who think that it's a good idea, for some reason, to dole out free education to people who haven't done anything to earn it.<br> <br>

My view is simple. An education can be pretty valuable. It'll make the student a bit of money in the future. How much benefit depends on the choices made. By making the college student pay for their education, they as the saying goes are "putting skin in the game". Namely, they now have a personal interest in getting a good education which to be blunt they would not otherwise have.<br> <br>

I see no reason to change this because, among other things, I think there is no right to go to college for free and pick up a degree, that there are already too many college graduates with weak educations, that the college degree is not that valuable in itself, and that a colossal and growing amount of waste goes on in the college environment which would only be aggravated by free education.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain , because that 's part of believing that the nation 's most most important resource is its people.Paying for that " free " education is a key part of the educational experience .
Besides as PPH and mysidia pointed out , having to pay for your education helps make the education worth something .
It 's not you , but earlier tonight a slashdotter was whining at me about his interpretation of the world as people creating climate change just so they could live in " convenience and comfort " .
I suppose the idea is that it is despicable for someone to not wish to sacrifice .
I must admit I 'm starting to see their point of vieww now that I am reading throughout this story about people who think that it 's a good idea , for some reason , to dole out free education to people who have n't done anything to earn it .
My view is simple .
An education can be pretty valuable .
It 'll make the student a bit of money in the future .
How much benefit depends on the choices made .
By making the college student pay for their education , they as the saying goes are " putting skin in the game " .
Namely , they now have a personal interest in getting a good education which to be blunt they would not otherwise have .
I see no reason to change this because , among other things , I think there is no right to go to college for free and pick up a degree , that there are already too many college graduates with weak educations , that the college degree is not that valuable in itself , and that a colossal and growing amount of waste goes on in the college environment which would only be aggravated by free education .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.Paying for that "free" education is a key part of the educational experience.
Besides as PPH and mysidia pointed out, having to pay for your education helps make the education worth something.
It's not you, but earlier tonight a slashdotter was whining at me about his interpretation of the world as people creating climate change just so they could live in "convenience and comfort".
I suppose the idea is that it is despicable for someone to not wish to sacrifice.
I must admit I'm starting to see their point of vieww now that I am reading throughout this story about people who think that it's a good idea, for some reason, to dole out free education to people who haven't done anything to earn it.
My view is simple.
An education can be pretty valuable.
It'll make the student a bit of money in the future.
How much benefit depends on the choices made.
By making the college student pay for their education, they as the saying goes are "putting skin in the game".
Namely, they now have a personal interest in getting a good education which to be blunt they would not otherwise have.
I see no reason to change this because, among other things, I think there is no right to go to college for free and pick up a degree, that there are already too many college graduates with weak educations, that the college degree is not that valuable in itself, and that a colossal and growing amount of waste goes on in the college environment which would only be aggravated by free education.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790881</id>
	<title>I'm happy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255895340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My folks supported me for about &euro;60 per month for the years I spent in University and I graduated with less than &euro;3K of student loans.. Without working while studying.</p><p>Of course now my income tax is around 30\%, but I'll gladly pay it to pay off the studies of those coming after me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My folks supported me for about    60 per month for the years I spent in University and I graduated with less than    3K of student loans.. Without working while studying.Of course now my income tax is around 30 \ % , but I 'll gladly pay it to pay off the studies of those coming after me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My folks supported me for about €60 per month for the years I spent in University and I graduated with less than €3K of student loans.. Without working while studying.Of course now my income tax is around 30\%, but I'll gladly pay it to pay off the studies of those coming after me.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789329</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255882620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you want financial aid or even some scholarships, you have no choice but to take whatever loan they offer you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you want financial aid or even some scholarships , you have no choice but to take whatever loan they offer you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you want financial aid or even some scholarships, you have no choice but to take whatever loan they offer you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789195</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29798259</id>
	<title>How can this be?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255983360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, where is your free money. How dare they expect you to pay back the money your borrowed. I'm sorry to hear your having a problem finding a job in the current market but cry me a river, you received the money didn't you? It was interest deferred until graduation, was it not? I am so sick of this ME TOO, ME TOO - crap. The reason why the job market is so screwed up right now is because of all this</p><p>Federal shenanigans with federal home loan market. Let's not look to Washington to fix our problems because they are the ones that caused them to begin with.</p><p>Think health care is expensive now? Wait until it's free. Imagine how the student doctors feel about their prospects of paying back their college loans when the government starts setting even more what they earn.</p><p>To be a little more sympathetic - this might be useful info for you - "You can postpone repayment of your loans under a variety of conditions. This is called a deferment. While you&rsquo;re in school, for example, you may qualify for an in-school deferment. When you&rsquo;re in a tough financial spot you can often temporarily stop paying back your loans without any penalty or damage to your credit." - Source http://banking.about.com/od/loans/a/studentloans.htm</p><p>Do you qualify for to temporarily stop paying without penalty or damage to credit?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , where is your free money .
How dare they expect you to pay back the money your borrowed .
I 'm sorry to hear your having a problem finding a job in the current market but cry me a river , you received the money did n't you ?
It was interest deferred until graduation , was it not ?
I am so sick of this ME TOO , ME TOO - crap .
The reason why the job market is so screwed up right now is because of all thisFederal shenanigans with federal home loan market .
Let 's not look to Washington to fix our problems because they are the ones that caused them to begin with.Think health care is expensive now ?
Wait until it 's free .
Imagine how the student doctors feel about their prospects of paying back their college loans when the government starts setting even more what they earn.To be a little more sympathetic - this might be useful info for you - " You can postpone repayment of your loans under a variety of conditions .
This is called a deferment .
While you    re in school , for example , you may qualify for an in-school deferment .
When you    re in a tough financial spot you can often temporarily stop paying back your loans without any penalty or damage to your credit .
" - Source http : //banking.about.com/od/loans/a/studentloans.htmDo you qualify for to temporarily stop paying without penalty or damage to credit ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, where is your free money.
How dare they expect you to pay back the money your borrowed.
I'm sorry to hear your having a problem finding a job in the current market but cry me a river, you received the money didn't you?
It was interest deferred until graduation, was it not?
I am so sick of this ME TOO, ME TOO - crap.
The reason why the job market is so screwed up right now is because of all thisFederal shenanigans with federal home loan market.
Let's not look to Washington to fix our problems because they are the ones that caused them to begin with.Think health care is expensive now?
Wait until it's free.
Imagine how the student doctors feel about their prospects of paying back their college loans when the government starts setting even more what they earn.To be a little more sympathetic - this might be useful info for you - "You can postpone repayment of your loans under a variety of conditions.
This is called a deferment.
While you’re in school, for example, you may qualify for an in-school deferment.
When you’re in a tough financial spot you can often temporarily stop paying back your loans without any penalty or damage to your credit.
" - Source http://banking.about.com/od/loans/a/studentloans.htmDo you qualify for to temporarily stop paying without penalty or damage to credit?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790391</id>
	<title>Re:Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255890180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you don't get a useless degree, you might just be able to pay off your debts.  The hard truth is that many teenagers are choosing degrees which do not get them a worthwhile job.  There are quite a few people i talked to at Sodexho with degrees in things that won't get them paid, and they're flipping burgers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you do n't get a useless degree , you might just be able to pay off your debts .
The hard truth is that many teenagers are choosing degrees which do not get them a worthwhile job .
There are quite a few people i talked to at Sodexho with degrees in things that wo n't get them paid , and they 're flipping burgers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you don't get a useless degree, you might just be able to pay off your debts.
The hard truth is that many teenagers are choosing degrees which do not get them a worthwhile job.
There are quite a few people i talked to at Sodexho with degrees in things that won't get them paid, and they're flipping burgers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789281</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789709</id>
	<title>Re:Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255885020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Think about what you just said, you are spending nearly a decade being a net drain on society rather than contributing in some productive industry.  Sure, you'll be more productive in the long run, but you're not being "fleeced left and right".  You're *not* earning your keep right now, you are currently living off of someone else's productive efforts, which you'll have to pay back once you join the real world.</p><p>By the way, nobody gets forced to go to college. If the numbers don't work out in your favor, you were pretty dumb to sign up for an extended 'fleecing' at the hands of that evil educational institution.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Think about what you just said , you are spending nearly a decade being a net drain on society rather than contributing in some productive industry .
Sure , you 'll be more productive in the long run , but you 're not being " fleeced left and right " .
You 're * not * earning your keep right now , you are currently living off of someone else 's productive efforts , which you 'll have to pay back once you join the real world.By the way , nobody gets forced to go to college .
If the numbers do n't work out in your favor , you were pretty dumb to sign up for an extended 'fleecing ' at the hands of that evil educational institution .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Think about what you just said, you are spending nearly a decade being a net drain on society rather than contributing in some productive industry.
Sure, you'll be more productive in the long run, but you're not being "fleeced left and right".
You're *not* earning your keep right now, you are currently living off of someone else's productive efforts, which you'll have to pay back once you join the real world.By the way, nobody gets forced to go to college.
If the numbers don't work out in your favor, you were pretty dumb to sign up for an extended 'fleecing' at the hands of that evil educational institution.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789281</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793247</id>
	<title>Re:High risk for lenders = high interest rates</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255963260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Houses, in theory, will rise in price so can be sold on.<br>There is no underlying asset in the student.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Houses , in theory , will rise in price so can be sold on.There is no underlying asset in the student .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Houses, in theory, will rise in price so can be sold on.There is no underlying asset in the student.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789287</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789311</id>
	<title>I'm really tired of these whinny, idiot, moron,</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255882500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm really tired of these whinny, idiot, moron, democrats.</p><p>STEVEN LEE committed to pay back the loan, and he should have read the agreement.  If he did not like the agreement, It's TOO LATE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT NOW!!!!!</p><p>Homeowners have not been bailed out!  Those programs, like all programs from congress, are not working out for most homeowners in need!!!!!   Read the news OR watch FOX News and you would know that!</p><p>NO MORE BAILOUTS!   There is no more money!  The idiot, moron, democrats have spent all of the money!  In fact they are print more money and eroding the value of the dollar WITH COMPLETE DISREGARD!!!!</p><p>Impeach all democrats!</p><p>Remove trhe czars!</p><p>Deport illegal aliens!  after all, they are criminals, they entered illegally!</p><p>No more bailouts!</p><p>No taxpayer funded healthcare!!</p><p>No cap and trade!!!!</p><p>Pay down the deficit!  use the salaries of democrats to pay down the deficit!</p><p>Tax only democrats!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm really tired of these whinny , idiot , moron , democrats.STEVEN LEE committed to pay back the loan , and he should have read the agreement .
If he did not like the agreement , It 's TOO LATE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT NOW ! ! ! !
! Homeowners have not been bailed out !
Those programs , like all programs from congress , are not working out for most homeowners in need ! ! ! ! !
Read the news OR watch FOX News and you would know that ! NO MORE BAILOUTS !
There is no more money !
The idiot , moron , democrats have spent all of the money !
In fact they are print more money and eroding the value of the dollar WITH COMPLETE DISREGARD ! ! !
! Impeach all democrats ! Remove trhe czars ! Deport illegal aliens !
after all , they are criminals , they entered illegally ! No more bailouts ! No taxpayer funded healthcare !
! No cap and trade ! ! !
! Pay down the deficit !
use the salaries of democrats to pay down the deficit ! Tax only democrats ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm really tired of these whinny, idiot, moron, democrats.STEVEN LEE committed to pay back the loan, and he should have read the agreement.
If he did not like the agreement, It's TOO LATE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT NOW!!!!
!Homeowners have not been bailed out!
Those programs, like all programs from congress, are not working out for most homeowners in need!!!!!
Read the news OR watch FOX News and you would know that!NO MORE BAILOUTS!
There is no more money!
The idiot, moron, democrats have spent all of the money!
In fact they are print more money and eroding the value of the dollar WITH COMPLETE DISREGARD!!!
!Impeach all democrats!Remove trhe czars!Deport illegal aliens!
after all, they are criminals, they entered illegally!No more bailouts!No taxpayer funded healthcare!
!No cap and trade!!!
!Pay down the deficit!
use the salaries of democrats to pay down the deficit!Tax only democrats!!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789405</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>Estanislao Martínez</author>
	<datestamp>1255883040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>You saw the rates when you signed the papers.</p></div></blockquote><p>...except that student loan rates are variable, and thus your rates are subject to being reset over time.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You saw the rates when you signed the papers....except that student loan rates are variable , and thus your rates are subject to being reset over time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You saw the rates when you signed the papers....except that student loan rates are variable, and thus your rates are subject to being reset over time.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789195</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790007</id>
	<title>Re:Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>aaarrrgggh</author>
	<datestamp>1255887120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What right do you have to go to grad school straight after undergrad?  Do you think that impacts your risk profile vs someone who works for a few years in between to pay down loans and decide that they really want to be doing what their masters is in?</p><p>Far too many people in your situation go to grad school for the safety net.  Doctors are an obvious exception, but their pay offsets it reasonably well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What right do you have to go to grad school straight after undergrad ?
Do you think that impacts your risk profile vs someone who works for a few years in between to pay down loans and decide that they really want to be doing what their masters is in ? Far too many people in your situation go to grad school for the safety net .
Doctors are an obvious exception , but their pay offsets it reasonably well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What right do you have to go to grad school straight after undergrad?
Do you think that impacts your risk profile vs someone who works for a few years in between to pay down loans and decide that they really want to be doing what their masters is in?Far too many people in your situation go to grad school for the safety net.
Doctors are an obvious exception, but their pay offsets it reasonably well.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789281</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793933</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255966260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Calling it a 'right' kind of hides that fact."</p><p>If you come into the hospital uninsured and bleeding to death, you cannot be refused care.  The fact is that health care IS a right.<br>We need to sensibly structure our system to handle this.  It creates problems very directly, e.g. cheap preventative treatments are unavilable to the uninsured, but once conditions worsen to the point that they're on their deathbed we're morally obligated to drop hundreds of thousands of dollars on emergency care to try to keep them alive.  Wouldn't it be smarter just to give sick people cheap treatments early rather than expensive ones late?<br>We can no longer rely on prosperity to wish away scarcity by pretending health care isn't a right.  We need to confront and deal with the problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Calling it a 'right ' kind of hides that fact .
" If you come into the hospital uninsured and bleeding to death , you can not be refused care .
The fact is that health care IS a right.We need to sensibly structure our system to handle this .
It creates problems very directly , e.g .
cheap preventative treatments are unavilable to the uninsured , but once conditions worsen to the point that they 're on their deathbed we 're morally obligated to drop hundreds of thousands of dollars on emergency care to try to keep them alive .
Would n't it be smarter just to give sick people cheap treatments early rather than expensive ones late ? We can no longer rely on prosperity to wish away scarcity by pretending health care is n't a right .
We need to confront and deal with the problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Calling it a 'right' kind of hides that fact.
"If you come into the hospital uninsured and bleeding to death, you cannot be refused care.
The fact is that health care IS a right.We need to sensibly structure our system to handle this.
It creates problems very directly, e.g.
cheap preventative treatments are unavilable to the uninsured, but once conditions worsen to the point that they're on their deathbed we're morally obligated to drop hundreds of thousands of dollars on emergency care to try to keep them alive.
Wouldn't it be smarter just to give sick people cheap treatments early rather than expensive ones late?We can no longer rely on prosperity to wish away scarcity by pretending health care isn't a right.
We need to confront and deal with the problem.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790247</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794799</id>
	<title>Re:Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>SydShamino</author>
	<datestamp>1255970040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And how is this anyone's fault but yours?  I checked out the rates at a public undergraduate institution:<br><a href="http://www.utexas.edu/tuition/attach/2009\_10\_Fall\_Spring\_Undergrad\_Tuition.pdf" title="utexas.edu">http://www.utexas.edu/tuition/attach/2009\_10\_Fall\_Spring\_Undergrad\_Tuition.pdf</a> [utexas.edu]</p><p>That's $4662 per semester for a full load in a top engineering program.  So after paying just $38k in tuition <b>total</b> you could have gotten a quality education.</p><p>It was your choice to go to an undergraduate school with a $30k per year (!) tuition, and it was your choice to go directly into grad school knowing you'd accrue more interest on your loans.  Had you gone to an affordable school then entered the job market for five or ten years, you could have paid off your loans and built a nest egg to fund your grad work.</p><p>To me, your argument sounds about the same as me buying a $95k car then complaining that my monthly payments and interest are way, way higher than those of a person who bought a $15k car, and I <i>even</i> have to pay interest when I have the car in the shop to upgrade the sound system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And how is this anyone 's fault but yours ?
I checked out the rates at a public undergraduate institution : http : //www.utexas.edu/tuition/attach/2009 \ _10 \ _Fall \ _Spring \ _Undergrad \ _Tuition.pdf [ utexas.edu ] That 's $ 4662 per semester for a full load in a top engineering program .
So after paying just $ 38k in tuition total you could have gotten a quality education.It was your choice to go to an undergraduate school with a $ 30k per year ( !
) tuition , and it was your choice to go directly into grad school knowing you 'd accrue more interest on your loans .
Had you gone to an affordable school then entered the job market for five or ten years , you could have paid off your loans and built a nest egg to fund your grad work.To me , your argument sounds about the same as me buying a $ 95k car then complaining that my monthly payments and interest are way , way higher than those of a person who bought a $ 15k car , and I even have to pay interest when I have the car in the shop to upgrade the sound system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And how is this anyone's fault but yours?
I checked out the rates at a public undergraduate institution:http://www.utexas.edu/tuition/attach/2009\_10\_Fall\_Spring\_Undergrad\_Tuition.pdf [utexas.edu]That's $4662 per semester for a full load in a top engineering program.
So after paying just $38k in tuition total you could have gotten a quality education.It was your choice to go to an undergraduate school with a $30k per year (!
) tuition, and it was your choice to go directly into grad school knowing you'd accrue more interest on your loans.
Had you gone to an affordable school then entered the job market for five or ten years, you could have paid off your loans and built a nest egg to fund your grad work.To me, your argument sounds about the same as me buying a $95k car then complaining that my monthly payments and interest are way, way higher than those of a person who bought a $15k car, and I even have to pay interest when I have the car in the shop to upgrade the sound system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789281</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795877</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1255974300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.</p></div></blockquote><p>Yes, we should pay for career college students, great idea, cause we don't have enough of them already<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p><p>Of course, you could go to school and work a job to pay for yourself, but its far easier to expect someone else to pay the bill for you and spend the time at night partying instead.</p><p>Grow up.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain , because that 's part of believing that the nation 's most most important resource is its people.Yes , we should pay for career college students , great idea , cause we do n't have enough of them already ...Of course , you could go to school and work a job to pay for yourself , but its far easier to expect someone else to pay the bill for you and spend the time at night partying instead.Grow up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.Yes, we should pay for career college students, great idea, cause we don't have enough of them already ...Of course, you could go to school and work a job to pay for yourself, but its far easier to expect someone else to pay the bill for you and spend the time at night partying instead.Grow up.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789241</id>
	<title>As a college student</title>
	<author>gbarules2999</author>
	<datestamp>1255882020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Fuck off, Department of Education spokesperson (and the quoted Republican party stance in the story too). I saved up three years of minimum wage for my college fund and I didn't do it just to hear how I'm an ungrateful child when I ask why I'm forced to pay a ridiculous amount of extra money on top of what is turning into an endeavor that is beyond the concept of "costly." Give me a break. Even with that hard work through high school I'm still forced into penny pinching.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Fuck off , Department of Education spokesperson ( and the quoted Republican party stance in the story too ) .
I saved up three years of minimum wage for my college fund and I did n't do it just to hear how I 'm an ungrateful child when I ask why I 'm forced to pay a ridiculous amount of extra money on top of what is turning into an endeavor that is beyond the concept of " costly .
" Give me a break .
Even with that hard work through high school I 'm still forced into penny pinching .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fuck off, Department of Education spokesperson (and the quoted Republican party stance in the story too).
I saved up three years of minimum wage for my college fund and I didn't do it just to hear how I'm an ungrateful child when I ask why I'm forced to pay a ridiculous amount of extra money on top of what is turning into an endeavor that is beyond the concept of "costly.
" Give me a break.
Even with that hard work through high school I'm still forced into penny pinching.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789801</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255885680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What are you saying, "if you want a bad deal, you have to take a bad deal"?</p><p>Getting that much debt to get a college degree or two is mind-numbingly dumb.  Expecting the interest rate for a kid with no credit history / marketable skills / income to be anything but astronomical is exceedingly naive.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What are you saying , " if you want a bad deal , you have to take a bad deal " ? Getting that much debt to get a college degree or two is mind-numbingly dumb .
Expecting the interest rate for a kid with no credit history / marketable skills / income to be anything but astronomical is exceedingly naive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What are you saying, "if you want a bad deal, you have to take a bad deal"?Getting that much debt to get a college degree or two is mind-numbingly dumb.
Expecting the interest rate for a kid with no credit history / marketable skills / income to be anything but astronomical is exceedingly naive.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789329</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789635</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>jhylkema</author>
	<datestamp>1255884480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.</i></p><p>Who says the U.S. is a civilized nation?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain , because that 's part of believing that the nation 's most most important resource is its people.Who says the U.S. is a civilized nation ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.Who says the U.S. is a civilized nation?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789411</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>iamhassi</author>
	<datestamp>1255883100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>"And no, I didn't want a bailout for GM or the banks either."</i>
<br> <br>
yeah i'm still wondering <b>where "The government has bailed out homeowners" came from.  They did?</b>  I own a home, where's my check?  I didn't get a dime.  HELLO GOV'T?  Recent college graduate Steven Lee says you guys owe me a check!!!  GOV'T are you listening?</htmltext>
<tokenext>" And no , I did n't want a bailout for GM or the banks either .
" yeah i 'm still wondering where " The government has bailed out homeowners " came from .
They did ?
I own a home , where 's my check ?
I did n't get a dime .
HELLO GOV'T ?
Recent college graduate Steven Lee says you guys owe me a check ! ! !
GOV'T are you listening ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"And no, I didn't want a bailout for GM or the banks either.
"
 
yeah i'm still wondering where "The government has bailed out homeowners" came from.
They did?
I own a home, where's my check?
I didn't get a dime.
HELLO GOV'T?
Recent college graduate Steven Lee says you guys owe me a check!!!
GOV'T are you listening?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789195</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790959</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>khallow</author>
	<datestamp>1255982760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Spoken like someone who cant think beyond their own pocket.</p></div><p>Spoken like someone who doesn't give a shit about other peoples' pockets.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Because proper education systems increase your wealth as well, the same as proper health systems benefit your health as well. Let me ask you this, would you rather have a nation full of highly educated white collar workers or a nation full of barely educated blue collar slobs barely able to swing a hammer?</p></div><p>Would you rather have a nation of workers or of parasites?</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Well the white collar workers of course, you cannot compete with the third world on manufacturing whilst maintaining a first world economy. Now if education is difficult to afford then you will end up with a large section of your workforce earning low wages, low wages means that their contributions to tax will also be low as well as the amount of money they have to spend or invest. This means that YOU as the middle class will contribute MORE in tax to maintain the same quality of life or YOU will have to accept a LESS fortunate lifestyle.</p></div><p>The question here is why is education difficult to afford? I think it's because government has been throwing money at education in the form of subsidized loans and overly generous financial aid. If education were free, there'd be two possible outcomes, either everyone would consume as much education as they could, driving costs up even further, or someone would have to regulate consumption. Either outcome is avoided by the third choice, making people pay for their education.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>If you have more highly educated workers you can attract and create high tech industries which pay higher wages and thus contribute more in tax. This means the as a net result of more people paying more tax YOU pay less tax over all. YOU also benefit from OTHERS spending more disposable income or INVESTING that income which in turn creates more wealth and REDUCES the tax burden on INDIVIDUALS.</p></div><p>Except that the tax burden and future obligations aren't going down. Education won't fix what's wrong with the US because it's not the cause of the problem, and because the "investment" is consumed by those that had no part in it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Spoken like someone who cant think beyond their own pocket.Spoken like someone who does n't give a shit about other peoples ' pockets.Because proper education systems increase your wealth as well , the same as proper health systems benefit your health as well .
Let me ask you this , would you rather have a nation full of highly educated white collar workers or a nation full of barely educated blue collar slobs barely able to swing a hammer ? Would you rather have a nation of workers or of parasites ? Well the white collar workers of course , you can not compete with the third world on manufacturing whilst maintaining a first world economy .
Now if education is difficult to afford then you will end up with a large section of your workforce earning low wages , low wages means that their contributions to tax will also be low as well as the amount of money they have to spend or invest .
This means that YOU as the middle class will contribute MORE in tax to maintain the same quality of life or YOU will have to accept a LESS fortunate lifestyle.The question here is why is education difficult to afford ?
I think it 's because government has been throwing money at education in the form of subsidized loans and overly generous financial aid .
If education were free , there 'd be two possible outcomes , either everyone would consume as much education as they could , driving costs up even further , or someone would have to regulate consumption .
Either outcome is avoided by the third choice , making people pay for their education.If you have more highly educated workers you can attract and create high tech industries which pay higher wages and thus contribute more in tax .
This means the as a net result of more people paying more tax YOU pay less tax over all .
YOU also benefit from OTHERS spending more disposable income or INVESTING that income which in turn creates more wealth and REDUCES the tax burden on INDIVIDUALS.Except that the tax burden and future obligations are n't going down .
Education wo n't fix what 's wrong with the US because it 's not the cause of the problem , and because the " investment " is consumed by those that had no part in it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Spoken like someone who cant think beyond their own pocket.Spoken like someone who doesn't give a shit about other peoples' pockets.Because proper education systems increase your wealth as well, the same as proper health systems benefit your health as well.
Let me ask you this, would you rather have a nation full of highly educated white collar workers or a nation full of barely educated blue collar slobs barely able to swing a hammer?Would you rather have a nation of workers or of parasites?Well the white collar workers of course, you cannot compete with the third world on manufacturing whilst maintaining a first world economy.
Now if education is difficult to afford then you will end up with a large section of your workforce earning low wages, low wages means that their contributions to tax will also be low as well as the amount of money they have to spend or invest.
This means that YOU as the middle class will contribute MORE in tax to maintain the same quality of life or YOU will have to accept a LESS fortunate lifestyle.The question here is why is education difficult to afford?
I think it's because government has been throwing money at education in the form of subsidized loans and overly generous financial aid.
If education were free, there'd be two possible outcomes, either everyone would consume as much education as they could, driving costs up even further, or someone would have to regulate consumption.
Either outcome is avoided by the third choice, making people pay for their education.If you have more highly educated workers you can attract and create high tech industries which pay higher wages and thus contribute more in tax.
This means the as a net result of more people paying more tax YOU pay less tax over all.
YOU also benefit from OTHERS spending more disposable income or INVESTING that income which in turn creates more wealth and REDUCES the tax burden on INDIVIDUALS.Except that the tax burden and future obligations aren't going down.
Education won't fix what's wrong with the US because it's not the cause of the problem, and because the "investment" is consumed by those that had no part in it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29796221</id>
	<title>bailouts haven't gone far enough to help people</title>
	<author>saiha</author>
	<datestamp>1255975980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree, and even more so what about those of us who were responsible and have zero debt? We \_need\_ to get compensated for that. I believe we should get a significant tax rebate, how about 5\% of our gross income for the year.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree , and even more so what about those of us who were responsible and have zero debt ?
We \ _need \ _ to get compensated for that .
I believe we should get a significant tax rebate , how about 5 \ % of our gross income for the year .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree, and even more so what about those of us who were responsible and have zero debt?
We \_need\_ to get compensated for that.
I believe we should get a significant tax rebate, how about 5\% of our gross income for the year.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792455</id>
	<title>Student credit worthiness remark is BS</title>
	<author>walterbyrd</author>
	<datestamp>1255958700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Student loans are backed by the feds. The feds have the full force of the IRS to make sure the all debts are paid.</p><p>In other words, student loans are the safest loans that can be made - much safer than home loans.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Student loans are backed by the feds .
The feds have the full force of the IRS to make sure the all debts are paid.In other words , student loans are the safest loans that can be made - much safer than home loans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Student loans are backed by the feds.
The feds have the full force of the IRS to make sure the all debts are paid.In other words, student loans are the safest loans that can be made - much safer than home loans.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790645</id>
	<title>8.5\% is really high...</title>
	<author>sitarlo</author>
	<datestamp>1255892760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I got a *private* student loan from a bank and I only pay 5\% interest.  My problem is tuition has gone up so much I'm not sure I can afford my last year without more funds for tuition, but I can't get more funds because the credit bar has been raised so high I don't qualify for anything even though I have a decent income and a high credit score.  The lenders, the government, and the people who borrow more than they can pay back have really fucked over a lot of good people who pay their bills and keep their promises.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I got a * private * student loan from a bank and I only pay 5 \ % interest .
My problem is tuition has gone up so much I 'm not sure I can afford my last year without more funds for tuition , but I ca n't get more funds because the credit bar has been raised so high I do n't qualify for anything even though I have a decent income and a high credit score .
The lenders , the government , and the people who borrow more than they can pay back have really fucked over a lot of good people who pay their bills and keep their promises .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I got a *private* student loan from a bank and I only pay 5\% interest.
My problem is tuition has gone up so much I'm not sure I can afford my last year without more funds for tuition, but I can't get more funds because the credit bar has been raised so high I don't qualify for anything even though I have a decent income and a high credit score.
The lenders, the government, and the people who borrow more than they can pay back have really fucked over a lot of good people who pay their bills and keep their promises.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794649</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255969380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;Personally, I think a system that makes people work to pay for their education works just fine. It sorts out the those with the skills and dedication to obtain<br>&gt;an advanced education from those without - the same skills and dedication they will hopefully employ in whatever career that education prepares them for.</p><p>No, it does not work fine. If your familly is rich, you do start your working life with a debt of 0 and a risk near 0 too. Poorer have to start with a colossal debt and a very high risk.</p><p>The system is biased, flawed, the competition is unfair : the best are not necessary the one receiving the diplomas.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; Personally , I think a system that makes people work to pay for their education works just fine .
It sorts out the those with the skills and dedication to obtain &gt; an advanced education from those without - the same skills and dedication they will hopefully employ in whatever career that education prepares them for.No , it does not work fine .
If your familly is rich , you do start your working life with a debt of 0 and a risk near 0 too .
Poorer have to start with a colossal debt and a very high risk.The system is biased , flawed , the competition is unfair : the best are not necessary the one receiving the diplomas .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;Personally, I think a system that makes people work to pay for their education works just fine.
It sorts out the those with the skills and dedication to obtain&gt;an advanced education from those without - the same skills and dedication they will hopefully employ in whatever career that education prepares them for.No, it does not work fine.
If your familly is rich, you do start your working life with a debt of 0 and a risk near 0 too.
Poorer have to start with a colossal debt and a very high risk.The system is biased, flawed, the competition is unfair : the best are not necessary the one receiving the diplomas.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790735</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791653</id>
	<title>please read my lips: .....</title>
	<author>tkjtkj</author>
	<datestamp>1255950660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>5\% vrs 8.5\%?? why???</p><p>its called:  C O L L A T E R A L</p><p>simple, really....</p><p>At what rate do you even imagine having to pay<br>for a home which is not held by the bank as collateral?</p><p>30\%?? 40????</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>5 \ % vrs 8.5 \ % ? ?
why ? ? ? its called : C O L L A T E R A Lsimple , really....At what rate do you even imagine having to payfor a home which is not held by the bank as collateral ? 30 \ % ? ?
40 ? ? ? ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>5\% vrs 8.5\%??
why???its called:  C O L L A T E R A Lsimple, really....At what rate do you even imagine having to payfor a home which is not held by the bank as collateral?30\%??
40????</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794847</id>
	<title>contrast that to Europe...</title>
	<author>Uberbah</author>
	<datestamp>1255970280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...where far more higher education costs are covered and they have single payer health care.  Under teh evil Socialism, college grads over there don't have to worry about 6 figure student loan debt or trying to start a business while having to deal with health insurance.</p><p>But we can't have that here, as elitism and ankle grabbing are as American as apple pie.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...where far more higher education costs are covered and they have single payer health care .
Under teh evil Socialism , college grads over there do n't have to worry about 6 figure student loan debt or trying to start a business while having to deal with health insurance.But we ca n't have that here , as elitism and ankle grabbing are as American as apple pie .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...where far more higher education costs are covered and they have single payer health care.
Under teh evil Socialism, college grads over there don't have to worry about 6 figure student loan debt or trying to start a business while having to deal with health insurance.But we can't have that here, as elitism and ankle grabbing are as American as apple pie.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789713</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792471</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255958760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Good point, hippie.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D  (Very good point)</p><p>If that were the case (free education), do you think we would have problems with career education folks?  Surely there is a line to be drawn, which ANY line would put us back to square one.  Perhaps housing/food isn't included?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Good point , hippie .
: D ( Very good point ) If that were the case ( free education ) , do you think we would have problems with career education folks ?
Surely there is a line to be drawn , which ANY line would put us back to square one .
Perhaps housing/food is n't included ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good point, hippie.
:D  (Very good point)If that were the case (free education), do you think we would have problems with career education folks?
Surely there is a line to be drawn, which ANY line would put us back to square one.
Perhaps housing/food isn't included?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29800639</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>NelsChristian</author>
	<datestamp>1255949160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.</i> <p>
Perma-students aren't much of a resource at all.  Neither are political scientists, if the one in my family is representative of the average political science graduates.
</p><p>
People are an important resource only after they get done with their education and produce something useful in exchange for what they get from the rest of us.  And the way we make sure that the education isn' t just a waste of time, is to expect most folks who get an education to pay for it.  If you can't pay for it, it was probably a waste of your time and the bank's money.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain , because that 's part of believing that the nation 's most most important resource is its people .
Perma-students are n't much of a resource at all .
Neither are political scientists , if the one in my family is representative of the average political science graduates .
People are an important resource only after they get done with their education and produce something useful in exchange for what they get from the rest of us .
And the way we make sure that the education isn ' t just a waste of time , is to expect most folks who get an education to pay for it .
If you ca n't pay for it , it was probably a waste of your time and the bank 's money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.
Perma-students aren't much of a resource at all.
Neither are political scientists, if the one in my family is representative of the average political science graduates.
People are an important resource only after they get done with their education and produce something useful in exchange for what they get from the rest of us.
And the way we make sure that the education isn' t just a waste of time, is to expect most folks who get an education to pay for it.
If you can't pay for it, it was probably a waste of your time and the bank's money.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795145</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>SydShamino</author>
	<datestamp>1255971660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, I too see health care and education differently.  I'm willing to pay more for health care for all IF that system tries to lower costs (by encouraging preventative care for everyone and punishing those who choose to not make use of it).  People don't make the choice to be sick, and as a society we can improve us all by making sure everyone has access to affordable quality health care.</p><p>But for education, everyone <i>does</i> have access to affordable quality providers.  They're called public schools, and they are already being subsidized by the taxpayers.  The people complaining in this discussion, talking about $120k or more of debt while in grad school, chose to skip the affordable option and go for something else, then not graduate with a degree able to command a salary sufficient to pay back their loans.</p><p>That's just irresponsibility which, in my opinion, warrants a higher interest rate.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , I too see health care and education differently .
I 'm willing to pay more for health care for all IF that system tries to lower costs ( by encouraging preventative care for everyone and punishing those who choose to not make use of it ) .
People do n't make the choice to be sick , and as a society we can improve us all by making sure everyone has access to affordable quality health care.But for education , everyone does have access to affordable quality providers .
They 're called public schools , and they are already being subsidized by the taxpayers .
The people complaining in this discussion , talking about $ 120k or more of debt while in grad school , chose to skip the affordable option and go for something else , then not graduate with a degree able to command a salary sufficient to pay back their loans.That 's just irresponsibility which , in my opinion , warrants a higher interest rate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, I too see health care and education differently.
I'm willing to pay more for health care for all IF that system tries to lower costs (by encouraging preventative care for everyone and punishing those who choose to not make use of it).
People don't make the choice to be sick, and as a society we can improve us all by making sure everyone has access to affordable quality health care.But for education, everyone does have access to affordable quality providers.
They're called public schools, and they are already being subsidized by the taxpayers.
The people complaining in this discussion, talking about $120k or more of debt while in grad school, chose to skip the affordable option and go for something else, then not graduate with a degree able to command a salary sufficient to pay back their loans.That's just irresponsibility which, in my opinion, warrants a higher interest rate.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790247</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792859</id>
	<title>Waaa, Waaa, frikin' WAAAAA!</title>
	<author>crmarvin42</author>
	<datestamp>1255961400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>As a student with 10+ years of education, 3 years of actively accepting student loads (which have been accruing interest for the last 8 years), and a wife with 5+ years of loans already in repayment I feel justified in saying "BOO FRIKIN' HOOO"<br> <br>A college education was never meant to be a guarantee of future financial stability, especially in the short term.  We need to get away from this pervasive mentality of <b>"Things didn't go exactly according to the PLAN.  The Government needs to save me!!!!  WAAAAAAAA"</b>.<br> <br>Of course it sucks trying to find a job in the current market, and I sympathise as I'm currently looking for my next job as I'm going to graduate soon.  However, that doesn't mean that the federal government, who already bent over backward in order to help me get the loans I needed in order to persue my education, should be expected to further subsidize me into my 30's.  Grow a friggin' pair, and if necessary get a job working at McD's and rent the shittiest appartment you can find to make ends meet.  This sense of entitlement to an easy life, simpy because you are college educated is assinine and juvenile.  The education is supposed to give you more skills, based on the idea that more skills make you more valuable.  However, if you pursue a degree in which those skills are next to useless (I'm looking at you art history majors), or one in which the market is oversatturated, well then you were an idiot and deserve to suffer a little for your stupidity.  That doesn't mean that you should be able to get your education for free, just because it took you a little while to find a job.  <br> <br>We need to stop supporting those that have made stupid decisions or else they'll never learn that there are consequences for their actions.  I learned that in middle school, my older brother took until after high school, and apparently some have failed to learn the lesson despite being 22 (Bachelors), 24-28 (Graduate Degree), or even older 50-60 (Corporate CEO's that ran their companies into the ground).  Maybe I'm just an insensitive clod, but not everyone can be happy all of the time.  A little hardship can build character, just as our grandparents.  <br> <br>There are nowhere near as many people suffering as there were in the great depression, all the "Worst recession since the depression" hyperbole aside.  If the current hardships mean that it takes you an extra 10 years to buy a house, or that you have to settle for something less than a McMansion I'm not going to be losing any sleep over it.  I will probably lose more than a little over my own financial problems, but they are <b>MY PROBLEMS</b> and not the governments.  A little more personal accountability on behalf of most Americans would go a long way to improving our collective condition.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As a student with 10 + years of education , 3 years of actively accepting student loads ( which have been accruing interest for the last 8 years ) , and a wife with 5 + years of loans already in repayment I feel justified in saying " BOO FRIKIN ' HOOO " A college education was never meant to be a guarantee of future financial stability , especially in the short term .
We need to get away from this pervasive mentality of " Things did n't go exactly according to the PLAN .
The Government needs to save me ! ! ! !
WAAAAAAAA " . Of course it sucks trying to find a job in the current market , and I sympathise as I 'm currently looking for my next job as I 'm going to graduate soon .
However , that does n't mean that the federal government , who already bent over backward in order to help me get the loans I needed in order to persue my education , should be expected to further subsidize me into my 30 's .
Grow a friggin ' pair , and if necessary get a job working at McD 's and rent the shittiest appartment you can find to make ends meet .
This sense of entitlement to an easy life , simpy because you are college educated is assinine and juvenile .
The education is supposed to give you more skills , based on the idea that more skills make you more valuable .
However , if you pursue a degree in which those skills are next to useless ( I 'm looking at you art history majors ) , or one in which the market is oversatturated , well then you were an idiot and deserve to suffer a little for your stupidity .
That does n't mean that you should be able to get your education for free , just because it took you a little while to find a job .
We need to stop supporting those that have made stupid decisions or else they 'll never learn that there are consequences for their actions .
I learned that in middle school , my older brother took until after high school , and apparently some have failed to learn the lesson despite being 22 ( Bachelors ) , 24-28 ( Graduate Degree ) , or even older 50-60 ( Corporate CEO 's that ran their companies into the ground ) .
Maybe I 'm just an insensitive clod , but not everyone can be happy all of the time .
A little hardship can build character , just as our grandparents .
There are nowhere near as many people suffering as there were in the great depression , all the " Worst recession since the depression " hyperbole aside .
If the current hardships mean that it takes you an extra 10 years to buy a house , or that you have to settle for something less than a McMansion I 'm not going to be losing any sleep over it .
I will probably lose more than a little over my own financial problems , but they are MY PROBLEMS and not the governments .
A little more personal accountability on behalf of most Americans would go a long way to improving our collective condition .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a student with 10+ years of education, 3 years of actively accepting student loads (which have been accruing interest for the last 8 years), and a wife with 5+ years of loans already in repayment I feel justified in saying "BOO FRIKIN' HOOO" A college education was never meant to be a guarantee of future financial stability, especially in the short term.
We need to get away from this pervasive mentality of "Things didn't go exactly according to the PLAN.
The Government needs to save me!!!!
WAAAAAAAA". Of course it sucks trying to find a job in the current market, and I sympathise as I'm currently looking for my next job as I'm going to graduate soon.
However, that doesn't mean that the federal government, who already bent over backward in order to help me get the loans I needed in order to persue my education, should be expected to further subsidize me into my 30's.
Grow a friggin' pair, and if necessary get a job working at McD's and rent the shittiest appartment you can find to make ends meet.
This sense of entitlement to an easy life, simpy because you are college educated is assinine and juvenile.
The education is supposed to give you more skills, based on the idea that more skills make you more valuable.
However, if you pursue a degree in which those skills are next to useless (I'm looking at you art history majors), or one in which the market is oversatturated, well then you were an idiot and deserve to suffer a little for your stupidity.
That doesn't mean that you should be able to get your education for free, just because it took you a little while to find a job.
We need to stop supporting those that have made stupid decisions or else they'll never learn that there are consequences for their actions.
I learned that in middle school, my older brother took until after high school, and apparently some have failed to learn the lesson despite being 22 (Bachelors), 24-28 (Graduate Degree), or even older 50-60 (Corporate CEO's that ran their companies into the ground).
Maybe I'm just an insensitive clod, but not everyone can be happy all of the time.
A little hardship can build character, just as our grandparents.
There are nowhere near as many people suffering as there were in the great depression, all the "Worst recession since the depression" hyperbole aside.
If the current hardships mean that it takes you an extra 10 years to buy a house, or that you have to settle for something less than a McMansion I'm not going to be losing any sleep over it.
I will probably lose more than a little over my own financial problems, but they are MY PROBLEMS and not the governments.
A little more personal accountability on behalf of most Americans would go a long way to improving our collective condition.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792729</id>
	<title>Can't pay your loans?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255960500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Easy solution - leave the country.  The only way they could go after you then would be to sue you and get a judgment against you, and <a href="http://fsacollections.ed.gov/contractors/pca2004/Lit/LitPkgManual-3-09.doc" title="ed.gov" rel="nofollow">borrowers living in foreign countries are ineligible for DOJ litigation referrals</a> [ed.gov].  (Warning - Word Document.  Look on page three).</p><p>There are much better places to live in this world than America despite with LimBeck, Sean Hannity and Fixed News will have you believe.  There are many nations with lower unemployment rates that welcome immigrants, particularly educated and highly skilled ones, with open arms.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Easy solution - leave the country .
The only way they could go after you then would be to sue you and get a judgment against you , and borrowers living in foreign countries are ineligible for DOJ litigation referrals [ ed.gov ] .
( Warning - Word Document .
Look on page three ) .There are much better places to live in this world than America despite with LimBeck , Sean Hannity and Fixed News will have you believe .
There are many nations with lower unemployment rates that welcome immigrants , particularly educated and highly skilled ones , with open arms .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Easy solution - leave the country.
The only way they could go after you then would be to sue you and get a judgment against you, and borrowers living in foreign countries are ineligible for DOJ litigation referrals [ed.gov].
(Warning - Word Document.
Look on page three).There are much better places to live in this world than America despite with LimBeck, Sean Hannity and Fixed News will have you believe.
There are many nations with lower unemployment rates that welcome immigrants, particularly educated and highly skilled ones, with open arms.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789629</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>corbettw</author>
	<datestamp>1255884480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And kids keep getting approved for loans because of government backing of those loans. Take away all of the student loan programs that are out there to "help" kids afford college, and maybe college would become affordable.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And kids keep getting approved for loans because of government backing of those loans .
Take away all of the student loan programs that are out there to " help " kids afford college , and maybe college would become affordable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And kids keep getting approved for loans because of government backing of those loans.
Take away all of the student loan programs that are out there to "help" kids afford college, and maybe college would become affordable.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789355</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790507</id>
	<title>Dumbness should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255891560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well thankfully we have boards like slashdot to demonstrate just how utterly they failed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well thankfully we have boards like slashdot to demonstrate just how utterly they failed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well thankfully we have boards like slashdot to demonstrate just how utterly they failed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793185</id>
	<title>Re:Pissed at the bail-outs</title>
	<author>dvorakkeyboardrules</author>
	<datestamp>1255963020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> <i>Hey, I have a better idea. Let's take just 1\% of that trillion dollars per year, and use it to feed EVERY SINGLE !@## STARVING KID THE WORLD OVER. Yes, that's all it would take. A Billion dollars per year could by a handful of rice, corn, or wheat to put into the hands of every single starving kid in the world.</i> </p><p>Ever think about what effect free food has on the target country's local agriculture economy?  I'll give you a hint: Local farmers have to start competing with free.  The answer isn't dumping free food onto people--it's investing in infrastructure so that functional and stable markets can develop.</p></div><p>There was an interesting story in Time Magazine about that last year. It was about Ethiopian farmers, and it turns out that they are suffering big time, simply because it's impossible for them to sell their crops locally when their potential customers are receiving western food aid for free. So the whole ironic thing about aid from the west is that it keeps people locked into poverty and dependence.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hey , I have a better idea .
Let 's take just 1 \ % of that trillion dollars per year , and use it to feed EVERY SINGLE !
@ # # STARVING KID THE WORLD OVER .
Yes , that 's all it would take .
A Billion dollars per year could by a handful of rice , corn , or wheat to put into the hands of every single starving kid in the world .
Ever think about what effect free food has on the target country 's local agriculture economy ?
I 'll give you a hint : Local farmers have to start competing with free .
The answer is n't dumping free food onto people--it 's investing in infrastructure so that functional and stable markets can develop.There was an interesting story in Time Magazine about that last year .
It was about Ethiopian farmers , and it turns out that they are suffering big time , simply because it 's impossible for them to sell their crops locally when their potential customers are receiving western food aid for free .
So the whole ironic thing about aid from the west is that it keeps people locked into poverty and dependence .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Hey, I have a better idea.
Let's take just 1\% of that trillion dollars per year, and use it to feed EVERY SINGLE !
@## STARVING KID THE WORLD OVER.
Yes, that's all it would take.
A Billion dollars per year could by a handful of rice, corn, or wheat to put into the hands of every single starving kid in the world.
Ever think about what effect free food has on the target country's local agriculture economy?
I'll give you a hint: Local farmers have to start competing with free.
The answer isn't dumping free food onto people--it's investing in infrastructure so that functional and stable markets can develop.There was an interesting story in Time Magazine about that last year.
It was about Ethiopian farmers, and it turns out that they are suffering big time, simply because it's impossible for them to sell their crops locally when their potential customers are receiving western food aid for free.
So the whole ironic thing about aid from the west is that it keeps people locked into poverty and dependence.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790145</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29800227</id>
	<title>Re:credit-unworthy or just greedy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255947300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, lenders are going to try to maximize their profits so presumably charging higher rates for riskier loans is what they've found to maximize profits for those loans... If lending lower amounts resulted in lower default rates and higher profitability then they'd be doing it.</p><p>Of course, it may be that a bank unwilling to lend someone the full amout they are asking for won't get as much business as one that does, and that cuts into profits too.</p><p>Now, if you want someone to make loans without regard to maximizing profit, then don't exepect that to come from a public company. You're really asking for the government to step in and make those loans.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , lenders are going to try to maximize their profits so presumably charging higher rates for riskier loans is what they 've found to maximize profits for those loans... If lending lower amounts resulted in lower default rates and higher profitability then they 'd be doing it.Of course , it may be that a bank unwilling to lend someone the full amout they are asking for wo n't get as much business as one that does , and that cuts into profits too.Now , if you want someone to make loans without regard to maximizing profit , then do n't exepect that to come from a public company .
You 're really asking for the government to step in and make those loans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, lenders are going to try to maximize their profits so presumably charging higher rates for riskier loans is what they've found to maximize profits for those loans... If lending lower amounts resulted in lower default rates and higher profitability then they'd be doing it.Of course, it may be that a bank unwilling to lend someone the full amout they are asking for won't get as much business as one that does, and that cuts into profits too.Now, if you want someone to make loans without regard to maximizing profit, then don't exepect that to come from a public company.
You're really asking for the government to step in and make those loans.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789285</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789593</id>
	<title>Student Loans are 0\% in New Zealand.</title>
	<author>ZaphodHarkonnen</author>
	<datestamp>1255884240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well as long as you stay in the country.

Thanks to the Ministry of Social Development we get loans straight from the government and after a year the loan gets passed off to the IRD to get repayed. The minimum rate of repayment is 10\% of whatever you earn over an annual income threshold which at the moment is $19,084. So that is nice and automatic and if you want to you can pay back more.

<a href="http://www.studylink.govt.nz/" title="studylink.govt.nz" rel="nofollow">http://www.studylink.govt.nz/</a> [studylink.govt.nz]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well as long as you stay in the country .
Thanks to the Ministry of Social Development we get loans straight from the government and after a year the loan gets passed off to the IRD to get repayed .
The minimum rate of repayment is 10 \ % of whatever you earn over an annual income threshold which at the moment is $ 19,084 .
So that is nice and automatic and if you want to you can pay back more .
http : //www.studylink.govt.nz/ [ studylink.govt.nz ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well as long as you stay in the country.
Thanks to the Ministry of Social Development we get loans straight from the government and after a year the loan gets passed off to the IRD to get repayed.
The minimum rate of repayment is 10\% of whatever you earn over an annual income threshold which at the moment is $19,084.
So that is nice and automatic and if you want to you can pay back more.
http://www.studylink.govt.nz/ [studylink.govt.nz]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794733</id>
	<title>Current variable rate is 2.48\%</title>
	<author>insomniac8400</author>
	<datestamp>1255969740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have 6 loans over 2003-2007.  5 are variable and are currently at 2.48\%.  One is not variable and is at 6.8\%.

The variable are before 2007.  The fixed higher one was in 2007.  So basically congress helped the banks by switching loans to fixed rate loans and allows them to collect absurd interest rates on what is essentially a no risk loan.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have 6 loans over 2003-2007 .
5 are variable and are currently at 2.48 \ % .
One is not variable and is at 6.8 \ % .
The variable are before 2007 .
The fixed higher one was in 2007 .
So basically congress helped the banks by switching loans to fixed rate loans and allows them to collect absurd interest rates on what is essentially a no risk loan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have 6 loans over 2003-2007.
5 are variable and are currently at 2.48\%.
One is not variable and is at 6.8\%.
The variable are before 2007.
The fixed higher one was in 2007.
So basically congress helped the banks by switching loans to fixed rate loans and allows them to collect absurd interest rates on what is essentially a no risk loan.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789869</id>
	<title>Stop Going to College</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255886220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Until you can afford it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Until you can afford it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Until you can afford it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789355</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>iamhassi</author>
	<datestamp>1255882740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>"I think the loans are one thing but tuition rates are a larger issue. "</i>
<br> <br>tuition prices are so high because kids keep getting approved for loans.  I imagine schools might someday see the same thing the housing market has recently if the <a href="http://www.miamiherald.com/business/story/1286862.html" title="miamiherald.com">prices keep going up faster than inflation</a> [miamiherald.com].  Can't sustain that forever.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" I think the loans are one thing but tuition rates are a larger issue .
" tuition prices are so high because kids keep getting approved for loans .
I imagine schools might someday see the same thing the housing market has recently if the prices keep going up faster than inflation [ miamiherald.com ] .
Ca n't sustain that forever .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"I think the loans are one thing but tuition rates are a larger issue.
"
 tuition prices are so high because kids keep getting approved for loans.
I imagine schools might someday see the same thing the housing market has recently if the prices keep going up faster than inflation [miamiherald.com].
Can't sustain that forever.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789155</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790523</id>
	<title>Thing I Notice About Most Recent Graduates</title>
	<author>Greyfox</author>
	<datestamp>1255891740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Is their earning potential at the moment is not so much, but they're chock full of organs! And they're hardly even using a lot of them! Perhaps they could turn this organ surplus to their advantage somehow...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is their earning potential at the moment is not so much , but they 're chock full of organs !
And they 're hardly even using a lot of them !
Perhaps they could turn this organ surplus to their advantage somehow.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is their earning potential at the moment is not so much, but they're chock full of organs!
And they're hardly even using a lot of them!
Perhaps they could turn this organ surplus to their advantage somehow...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795797</id>
	<title>Re:Restating the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255974000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>If the USA stays the same course as it's currently on, I think my children (as UK citizens by birthright) may be going to the UK for their education. It's a lot cheaper, it'll broaden their minds by travelling, and the quality is generally very high.</p></div> </blockquote><p>Yes, if you live in the US and pay lower taxes because higher education is not subsidized as much by taxes, then send your students across the pond to go to school that is being subsidised far more by other people paying higher taxes (which you are not doing), then it is a cheaper overall situation for YOU.  SOMEONE ELSE IS PAYING YOUR BILL FOR YOU AND YOU AREN'T CONTRIBUTING BACK INTO THE SYSTEM.</p><p>This is, in effect, cheating, legal or not.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If the USA stays the same course as it 's currently on , I think my children ( as UK citizens by birthright ) may be going to the UK for their education .
It 's a lot cheaper , it 'll broaden their minds by travelling , and the quality is generally very high .
Yes , if you live in the US and pay lower taxes because higher education is not subsidized as much by taxes , then send your students across the pond to go to school that is being subsidised far more by other people paying higher taxes ( which you are not doing ) , then it is a cheaper overall situation for YOU .
SOMEONE ELSE IS PAYING YOUR BILL FOR YOU AND YOU ARE N'T CONTRIBUTING BACK INTO THE SYSTEM.This is , in effect , cheating , legal or not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the USA stays the same course as it's currently on, I think my children (as UK citizens by birthright) may be going to the UK for their education.
It's a lot cheaper, it'll broaden their minds by travelling, and the quality is generally very high.
Yes, if you live in the US and pay lower taxes because higher education is not subsidized as much by taxes, then send your students across the pond to go to school that is being subsidised far more by other people paying higher taxes (which you are not doing), then it is a cheaper overall situation for YOU.
SOMEONE ELSE IS PAYING YOUR BILL FOR YOU AND YOU AREN'T CONTRIBUTING BACK INTO THE SYSTEM.This is, in effect, cheating, legal or not.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789305</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791559</id>
	<title>Re:It's cheap compared to India...</title>
	<author>murraj2</author>
	<datestamp>1255949100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>In India, student loans are 12\% compound interest; while the borrowing rate in good banks is as high as 7.5\% compunded quarterly.Money makes the world go round...</p></div><p>Yes and India's inflation rate is 8.3\% (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html) and has been as high as 11\% within the past year, but even at 8.3\% that makes the real interest rate less than 4\%.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In India , student loans are 12 \ % compound interest ; while the borrowing rate in good banks is as high as 7.5 \ % compunded quarterly.Money makes the world go round...Yes and India 's inflation rate is 8.3 \ % ( https : //www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html ) and has been as high as 11 \ % within the past year , but even at 8.3 \ % that makes the real interest rate less than 4 \ % .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In India, student loans are 12\% compound interest; while the borrowing rate in good banks is as high as 7.5\% compunded quarterly.Money makes the world go round...Yes and India's inflation rate is 8.3\% (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html) and has been as high as 11\% within the past year, but even at 8.3\% that makes the real interest rate less than 4\%.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789151</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789389</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255882980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe if interest rates were higher the overall cost of tuition would be lower. Similar if fewer loans were available or less government assistance.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe if interest rates were higher the overall cost of tuition would be lower .
Similar if fewer loans were available or less government assistance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe if interest rates were higher the overall cost of tuition would be lower.
Similar if fewer loans were available or less government assistance.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789155</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791957</id>
	<title>Dare I say...</title>
	<author>daem0n1x</author>
	<datestamp>1255953900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Education shouldn't be a business. I vehemently oppose to student loans because I vehemently oppose to tuition.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Education should n't be a business .
I vehemently oppose to student loans because I vehemently oppose to tuition .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Education shouldn't be a business.
I vehemently oppose to student loans because I vehemently oppose to tuition.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789535</id>
	<title>I wonder why you're not considered credit-worthy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255883880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe it's because you're borrowing over 80,000 dollars for a college education.</p><p>5 minutes with a spreadsheet would tell you how much and for how long you have just screwed yourself, and by borrowing that kind of money you prove that you can't or won't spend even that much effort to think before borrowing.</p><p>I think part of the problem is cultural:  I was broke back when I went to college, and I needed loans; but I also knew that you should never borrow anywhere near enough to pay your whole tuition bill.  That's far too much money to borrow even if you aren't dead broke.  Poverty forces you into indebtedness, but it also makes you paranoid about accumulated debt, and you understand that something that costs tens of thousands of dollars will require you to eat Ramen, work multiple jobs, and make affordable choices even if someone will extend you credit.</p><p>But now I hear horror stories about students who borrow enough money to buy a house in much of the USA, and use that to pay for an entire four-year degree plus graduate school.   It's like the kids don't understand that they're poor; they get a credit line and stop acting like people who have to work for a living.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe it 's because you 're borrowing over 80,000 dollars for a college education.5 minutes with a spreadsheet would tell you how much and for how long you have just screwed yourself , and by borrowing that kind of money you prove that you ca n't or wo n't spend even that much effort to think before borrowing.I think part of the problem is cultural : I was broke back when I went to college , and I needed loans ; but I also knew that you should never borrow anywhere near enough to pay your whole tuition bill .
That 's far too much money to borrow even if you are n't dead broke .
Poverty forces you into indebtedness , but it also makes you paranoid about accumulated debt , and you understand that something that costs tens of thousands of dollars will require you to eat Ramen , work multiple jobs , and make affordable choices even if someone will extend you credit.But now I hear horror stories about students who borrow enough money to buy a house in much of the USA , and use that to pay for an entire four-year degree plus graduate school .
It 's like the kids do n't understand that they 're poor ; they get a credit line and stop acting like people who have to work for a living .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe it's because you're borrowing over 80,000 dollars for a college education.5 minutes with a spreadsheet would tell you how much and for how long you have just screwed yourself, and by borrowing that kind of money you prove that you can't or won't spend even that much effort to think before borrowing.I think part of the problem is cultural:  I was broke back when I went to college, and I needed loans; but I also knew that you should never borrow anywhere near enough to pay your whole tuition bill.
That's far too much money to borrow even if you aren't dead broke.
Poverty forces you into indebtedness, but it also makes you paranoid about accumulated debt, and you understand that something that costs tens of thousands of dollars will require you to eat Ramen, work multiple jobs, and make affordable choices even if someone will extend you credit.But now I hear horror stories about students who borrow enough money to buy a house in much of the USA, and use that to pay for an entire four-year degree plus graduate school.
It's like the kids don't understand that they're poor; they get a credit line and stop acting like people who have to work for a living.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791385</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>Jesus\_666</author>
	<datestamp>1255946880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Wow. Just... wow. Over here in Germany they introduced tuitions for the public universities (in addition to management fees of 200-300 EUR we had before) we had demonstrations and in some cases even lawsuits about the constitutionality of the tuition laws.<br>
<br>
The unbearable amount they're trying fo make students pay? 500 EUR. Yes, German students are still pissed off about having to pay up to the equivalent of 1200 USD per semester. 30.000 EUR is a realistic number, though - you can accumulate that much debt during your studies if you overly rely on loans and don't watch your spending.<br>
<br>
<br>
By the way, tuitions were introduced so the states could slash their education spending. If they keep it up some pulic universities might end up running entirely on third-party funds...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow .
Just... wow .
Over here in Germany they introduced tuitions for the public universities ( in addition to management fees of 200-300 EUR we had before ) we had demonstrations and in some cases even lawsuits about the constitutionality of the tuition laws .
The unbearable amount they 're trying fo make students pay ?
500 EUR .
Yes , German students are still pissed off about having to pay up to the equivalent of 1200 USD per semester .
30.000 EUR is a realistic number , though - you can accumulate that much debt during your studies if you overly rely on loans and do n't watch your spending .
By the way , tuitions were introduced so the states could slash their education spending .
If they keep it up some pulic universities might end up running entirely on third-party funds.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow.
Just... wow.
Over here in Germany they introduced tuitions for the public universities (in addition to management fees of 200-300 EUR we had before) we had demonstrations and in some cases even lawsuits about the constitutionality of the tuition laws.
The unbearable amount they're trying fo make students pay?
500 EUR.
Yes, German students are still pissed off about having to pay up to the equivalent of 1200 USD per semester.
30.000 EUR is a realistic number, though - you can accumulate that much debt during your studies if you overly rely on loans and don't watch your spending.
By the way, tuitions were introduced so the states could slash their education spending.
If they keep it up some pulic universities might end up running entirely on third-party funds...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789155</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29797829</id>
	<title>Re:Waaa, Waaa, frikin' WAAAAA!</title>
	<author>Backward Z</author>
	<datestamp>1255981980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>(double post, accidentally posted anonymously.)</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Yes. Yes, you are.</p></div><p>I'm in a similar situation: unemployed with student debt. A McDonald's job wouldn't even come close to scratching my bills. Fresh out of school I had a job that paid double my state's minimum wage and I while I could pay for my rent and student loans, I still had to get my parents' help for the rest: internet, car insurance, food, commute expenses, etc.</p><p>And believe me, with that job, I was the envy of my class.</p><p>I don't know man, but I don't think I'd ever have it in me to put someone down for pursuing their passion, even including art history majors. If your idea of idiocy is a person pursuing what enraptures and engages them in an academic context, then well yeah, you're an insensitive clod and a bit of an asshole.</p><p>Not everybody acquires a skill for the sake of earning lots of money. Some people have passion and some even put that passion first. I think it's more than a crying shame that our current system does not and will not support this. People doing what they love benefits everyone and the way things are, people are by and large barred from doing that.</p><p>My student loan payments kicked in six months after I graduated. I was supposed to have a lucrative job and financial stability six months after I graduated? Please. University should be free in the same way the lower grades are free in the same way the police and fire departments are free in the same way that health care should be free.</p><p>Because it's not about the individual. As long as you take the view supporting the individual, the individual gets trampled and then assholes like you say, "See, told you so!" We need to all start looking at our problems and our lives as being connected. Is it good for everybody that passionate people are discouraged from pursuing their passions in favor of rotting in some cubicle performing the same thoughtless rote menial tasks over and over until they die?</p><p>I don't think so. That's why I chose an education that gave me a skill that's not particularly marketable. Because I love exercising that skill. Not because it brings me rewards, but because I love the very doing. I don't ask for much. I rent a modest studio apartment, I don't buy fancy clothes, I don't spend money on frivolous things like car upgrades or expensive toys, but these student loans still kick my ass.</p><p>20 years of debt for 2&#189; years of school. Makes sense to me.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>( double post , accidentally posted anonymously. ) Yes .
Yes , you are.I 'm in a similar situation : unemployed with student debt .
A McDonald 's job would n't even come close to scratching my bills .
Fresh out of school I had a job that paid double my state 's minimum wage and I while I could pay for my rent and student loans , I still had to get my parents ' help for the rest : internet , car insurance , food , commute expenses , etc.And believe me , with that job , I was the envy of my class.I do n't know man , but I do n't think I 'd ever have it in me to put someone down for pursuing their passion , even including art history majors .
If your idea of idiocy is a person pursuing what enraptures and engages them in an academic context , then well yeah , you 're an insensitive clod and a bit of an asshole.Not everybody acquires a skill for the sake of earning lots of money .
Some people have passion and some even put that passion first .
I think it 's more than a crying shame that our current system does not and will not support this .
People doing what they love benefits everyone and the way things are , people are by and large barred from doing that.My student loan payments kicked in six months after I graduated .
I was supposed to have a lucrative job and financial stability six months after I graduated ?
Please. University should be free in the same way the lower grades are free in the same way the police and fire departments are free in the same way that health care should be free.Because it 's not about the individual .
As long as you take the view supporting the individual , the individual gets trampled and then assholes like you say , " See , told you so !
" We need to all start looking at our problems and our lives as being connected .
Is it good for everybody that passionate people are discouraged from pursuing their passions in favor of rotting in some cubicle performing the same thoughtless rote menial tasks over and over until they die ? I do n't think so .
That 's why I chose an education that gave me a skill that 's not particularly marketable .
Because I love exercising that skill .
Not because it brings me rewards , but because I love the very doing .
I do n't ask for much .
I rent a modest studio apartment , I do n't buy fancy clothes , I do n't spend money on frivolous things like car upgrades or expensive toys , but these student loans still kick my ass.20 years of debt for 2   years of school .
Makes sense to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>(double post, accidentally posted anonymously.)Yes.
Yes, you are.I'm in a similar situation: unemployed with student debt.
A McDonald's job wouldn't even come close to scratching my bills.
Fresh out of school I had a job that paid double my state's minimum wage and I while I could pay for my rent and student loans, I still had to get my parents' help for the rest: internet, car insurance, food, commute expenses, etc.And believe me, with that job, I was the envy of my class.I don't know man, but I don't think I'd ever have it in me to put someone down for pursuing their passion, even including art history majors.
If your idea of idiocy is a person pursuing what enraptures and engages them in an academic context, then well yeah, you're an insensitive clod and a bit of an asshole.Not everybody acquires a skill for the sake of earning lots of money.
Some people have passion and some even put that passion first.
I think it's more than a crying shame that our current system does not and will not support this.
People doing what they love benefits everyone and the way things are, people are by and large barred from doing that.My student loan payments kicked in six months after I graduated.
I was supposed to have a lucrative job and financial stability six months after I graduated?
Please. University should be free in the same way the lower grades are free in the same way the police and fire departments are free in the same way that health care should be free.Because it's not about the individual.
As long as you take the view supporting the individual, the individual gets trampled and then assholes like you say, "See, told you so!
" We need to all start looking at our problems and our lives as being connected.
Is it good for everybody that passionate people are discouraged from pursuing their passions in favor of rotting in some cubicle performing the same thoughtless rote menial tasks over and over until they die?I don't think so.
That's why I chose an education that gave me a skill that's not particularly marketable.
Because I love exercising that skill.
Not because it brings me rewards, but because I love the very doing.
I don't ask for much.
I rent a modest studio apartment, I don't buy fancy clothes, I don't spend money on frivolous things like car upgrades or expensive toys, but these student loans still kick my ass.20 years of debt for 2½ years of school.
Makes sense to me.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792859</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790745</id>
	<title>Citi, JPM et al were engaged in fraud as well</title>
	<author>CPE1704TKS</author>
	<datestamp>1255893720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Citi, JPM And Nelnet were implicated in a huge student loan conspiracy to commit fraud.  Not only do they make hand-over-fist on student loan interest, they were apparently engaging in fraudulent activity such that they made EVEN MORE money.  That's what greed gets you...</p><p><a href="http://www.zerohedge.com/article/nelnet-whistleblower-scandal-hits-wikileaks-jpm-citi-and-nelnet-implicated-massive-conspirat" title="zerohedge.com">http://www.zerohedge.com/article/nelnet-whistleblower-scandal-hits-wikileaks-jpm-citi-and-nelnet-implicated-massive-conspirat</a> [zerohedge.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Citi , JPM And Nelnet were implicated in a huge student loan conspiracy to commit fraud .
Not only do they make hand-over-fist on student loan interest , they were apparently engaging in fraudulent activity such that they made EVEN MORE money .
That 's what greed gets you...http : //www.zerohedge.com/article/nelnet-whistleblower-scandal-hits-wikileaks-jpm-citi-and-nelnet-implicated-massive-conspirat [ zerohedge.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Citi, JPM And Nelnet were implicated in a huge student loan conspiracy to commit fraud.
Not only do they make hand-over-fist on student loan interest, they were apparently engaging in fraudulent activity such that they made EVEN MORE money.
That's what greed gets you...http://www.zerohedge.com/article/nelnet-whistleblower-scandal-hits-wikileaks-jpm-citi-and-nelnet-implicated-massive-conspirat [zerohedge.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793819</id>
	<title>Answered his own question</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255965780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>After bailing out wall street, the banks, and the UAW, why can't "they" bail out students now?  Simple.  "They" (we) are broke.  Actually, we're worse than broke.  It'll take a few more years of suffering before we can get back to being broke.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>After bailing out wall street , the banks , and the UAW , why ca n't " they " bail out students now ?
Simple. " They " ( we ) are broke .
Actually , we 're worse than broke .
It 'll take a few more years of suffering before we can get back to being broke .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>After bailing out wall street, the banks, and the UAW, why can't "they" bail out students now?
Simple.  "They" (we) are broke.
Actually, we're worse than broke.
It'll take a few more years of suffering before we can get back to being broke.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29796131</id>
	<title>Re:Pissed at the bail-outs</title>
	<author>DavidTC</author>
	<datestamp>1255975620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Various people have pointed out the problem with free food.</p><p>
However, there's plenty of other stuff we could be buying that would cause goodwill, like buying mosquito netting to stop malaria.  We could wipe that entire disease out in a decade with a <b>million</b> dollars worth of netting <b>total</b>, and maybe ten one-hundred thousand dollar pesticide campaigns. Malaria is only contagious from human to mosquito and vis versa, so reducing the number of moquito bites, and killing large sections of the mosquito population so that the new mosquitos don't have it makes a huge impact on the disease. (And, unlike curing most diseases, we don't have the pharmaceutical industry whining about patents.)</p><p>
That's just one suggestion I know of off the top of my head.</p><p>
And, while the other posts point how much we send in foreign aid, it's worth pointing out we send that as <b>money</b>. And, yes, it's money for specific purposes, but it's usually purposes they'd do anyway, and thus all it does is move money around. (Money is fungible.)</p><p>
Hell, a lot of the money is specifically not earmarked, and the country happily uses it to run their military, or to pay for fancy new roads in their big cities while ignoring the people living in villages who don't even have electricity.</p><p>
What we need to do is show up and say 'Okay, about how many people need netting. Cause we've got, like, a few square miles of spare netting. Wherever you guys need it.'.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Various people have pointed out the problem with free food .
However , there 's plenty of other stuff we could be buying that would cause goodwill , like buying mosquito netting to stop malaria .
We could wipe that entire disease out in a decade with a million dollars worth of netting total , and maybe ten one-hundred thousand dollar pesticide campaigns .
Malaria is only contagious from human to mosquito and vis versa , so reducing the number of moquito bites , and killing large sections of the mosquito population so that the new mosquitos do n't have it makes a huge impact on the disease .
( And , unlike curing most diseases , we do n't have the pharmaceutical industry whining about patents .
) That 's just one suggestion I know of off the top of my head .
And , while the other posts point how much we send in foreign aid , it 's worth pointing out we send that as money .
And , yes , it 's money for specific purposes , but it 's usually purposes they 'd do anyway , and thus all it does is move money around .
( Money is fungible .
) Hell , a lot of the money is specifically not earmarked , and the country happily uses it to run their military , or to pay for fancy new roads in their big cities while ignoring the people living in villages who do n't even have electricity .
What we need to do is show up and say 'Okay , about how many people need netting .
Cause we 've got , like , a few square miles of spare netting .
Wherever you guys need it .
' .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Various people have pointed out the problem with free food.
However, there's plenty of other stuff we could be buying that would cause goodwill, like buying mosquito netting to stop malaria.
We could wipe that entire disease out in a decade with a million dollars worth of netting total, and maybe ten one-hundred thousand dollar pesticide campaigns.
Malaria is only contagious from human to mosquito and vis versa, so reducing the number of moquito bites, and killing large sections of the mosquito population so that the new mosquitos don't have it makes a huge impact on the disease.
(And, unlike curing most diseases, we don't have the pharmaceutical industry whining about patents.
)
That's just one suggestion I know of off the top of my head.
And, while the other posts point how much we send in foreign aid, it's worth pointing out we send that as money.
And, yes, it's money for specific purposes, but it's usually purposes they'd do anyway, and thus all it does is move money around.
(Money is fungible.
)
Hell, a lot of the money is specifically not earmarked, and the country happily uses it to run their military, or to pay for fancy new roads in their big cities while ignoring the people living in villages who don't even have electricity.
What we need to do is show up and say 'Okay, about how many people need netting.
Cause we've got, like, a few square miles of spare netting.
Wherever you guys need it.
'.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789863</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794673</id>
	<title>Re:Restating the problem</title>
	<author>Space cowboy</author>
	<datestamp>1255969500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Surprise buddy. You're wrong. On both counts.
<br>
Simon</htmltext>
<tokenext>Surprise buddy .
You 're wrong .
On both counts .
Simon</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Surprise buddy.
You're wrong.
On both counts.
Simon</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790313</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795367</id>
	<title>A better argument than this...</title>
	<author>ProteusQ</author>
	<datestamp>1255972440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you want to stimulate the economy, what would be more optimal?  To give cash to a corporation that has shown it is not capable of producing wealth, or to forgive a large percentage of all student debt?</p><p>I suspect that, in terms of economics, the second option is the winner.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you want to stimulate the economy , what would be more optimal ?
To give cash to a corporation that has shown it is not capable of producing wealth , or to forgive a large percentage of all student debt ? I suspect that , in terms of economics , the second option is the winner .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you want to stimulate the economy, what would be more optimal?
To give cash to a corporation that has shown it is not capable of producing wealth, or to forgive a large percentage of all student debt?I suspect that, in terms of economics, the second option is the winner.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795671</id>
	<title>Re:Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1255973580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Heres a novel idea<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... DON'T PUT YOURSELF IN THE SITUATION.</p><p>Plenty of people actually work their way though school.  Do you think you deserve what they have?  Let me help you, you don't.</p><p>YOU got yourself into this situation.  YOU didn't think ahead.  YOU accrued a debt rather than paying for it with money out of your own pocket.  It is YOUR problem, not mine, YOU fix it, stop expecting me to pay YOUR bills with my taxes.</p><p>'Being fleeced left and right'<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... You know how many people in the world would LOVE to get money without putting any sort of collateral down in advance for hundreds of thousands of dollars?</p><p>Grow up, the rest of the world isn't your mommy, we aren't paying to fix your ignorance, sorry.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Heres a novel idea ... DO N'T PUT YOURSELF IN THE SITUATION.Plenty of people actually work their way though school .
Do you think you deserve what they have ?
Let me help you , you do n't.YOU got yourself into this situation .
YOU did n't think ahead .
YOU accrued a debt rather than paying for it with money out of your own pocket .
It is YOUR problem , not mine , YOU fix it , stop expecting me to pay YOUR bills with my taxes .
'Being fleeced left and right ' ... You know how many people in the world would LOVE to get money without putting any sort of collateral down in advance for hundreds of thousands of dollars ? Grow up , the rest of the world is n't your mommy , we are n't paying to fix your ignorance , sorry .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Heres a novel idea ... DON'T PUT YOURSELF IN THE SITUATION.Plenty of people actually work their way though school.
Do you think you deserve what they have?
Let me help you, you don't.YOU got yourself into this situation.
YOU didn't think ahead.
YOU accrued a debt rather than paying for it with money out of your own pocket.
It is YOUR problem, not mine, YOU fix it, stop expecting me to pay YOUR bills with my taxes.
'Being fleeced left and right' ... You know how many people in the world would LOVE to get money without putting any sort of collateral down in advance for hundreds of thousands of dollars?Grow up, the rest of the world isn't your mommy, we aren't paying to fix your ignorance, sorry.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789281</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29796117</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255975500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Paying for someone's degree in Advanced Featherbedding just because they want on does little for the nation but produce yet another idiot with a meaningless degree and a sense of entitlement."</p><p>Failing to sufficiently subsidize someone's medical degree results in myriad well-reimbursed, but not particularly helpful medical procedures that you are not qualified to deny.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Paying for someone 's degree in Advanced Featherbedding just because they want on does little for the nation but produce yet another idiot with a meaningless degree and a sense of entitlement .
" Failing to sufficiently subsidize someone 's medical degree results in myriad well-reimbursed , but not particularly helpful medical procedures that you are not qualified to deny .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Paying for someone's degree in Advanced Featherbedding just because they want on does little for the nation but produce yet another idiot with a meaningless degree and a sense of entitlement.
"Failing to sufficiently subsidize someone's medical degree results in myriad well-reimbursed, but not particularly helpful medical procedures that you are not qualified to deny.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790735</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789949</id>
	<title>Re:Agreed</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255886760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And to everyone saying it isn't unsecured debt needs to actually look into the definition of unsecured debt.</p><p>If there is no mechanism for the lender to be compensated in the eventuality of the borrower defaulting, the loan is unsecured.</p><p>In this instance the lender can not be paid if the borrower can not pay, ergo is unemployed, dead, overseas (uncertain about this one), or similar.</p><p>If the loans are underwritten by the government, this means the government will pay in the event of a default. Is this correct?</p><p>If so, the rate reflects the governments rate which it will pay out, and other fees that might not be recovered, in the event of a default.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And to everyone saying it is n't unsecured debt needs to actually look into the definition of unsecured debt.If there is no mechanism for the lender to be compensated in the eventuality of the borrower defaulting , the loan is unsecured.In this instance the lender can not be paid if the borrower can not pay , ergo is unemployed , dead , overseas ( uncertain about this one ) , or similar.If the loans are underwritten by the government , this means the government will pay in the event of a default .
Is this correct ? If so , the rate reflects the governments rate which it will pay out , and other fees that might not be recovered , in the event of a default .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And to everyone saying it isn't unsecured debt needs to actually look into the definition of unsecured debt.If there is no mechanism for the lender to be compensated in the eventuality of the borrower defaulting, the loan is unsecured.In this instance the lender can not be paid if the borrower can not pay, ergo is unemployed, dead, overseas (uncertain about this one), or similar.If the loans are underwritten by the government, this means the government will pay in the event of a default.
Is this correct?If so, the rate reflects the governments rate which it will pay out, and other fees that might not be recovered, in the event of a default.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789357</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789917</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255886520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not really free. It's either the student pays or it's higher taxes for everyone. I and most of my friends went to state universities and we all turned out fine (doctors, dentists, pharmacists, lawyers, etc.).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not really free .
It 's either the student pays or it 's higher taxes for everyone .
I and most of my friends went to state universities and we all turned out fine ( doctors , dentists , pharmacists , lawyers , etc .
) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not really free.
It's either the student pays or it's higher taxes for everyone.
I and most of my friends went to state universities and we all turned out fine (doctors, dentists, pharmacists, lawyers, etc.
).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791291</id>
	<title>The cost of college.</title>
	<author>SeaFox</author>
	<datestamp>1255945800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've recently learned that for the most part student loans don't exist in Japan. Students' tuition is either paid for by their family or they work part time while in school to pay it off. I can't help but wonder how expensive college is in Japan for this to work.</p><p>Maybe the issue isn't that student loan interest rates are too high but that colleges themselves charge too much in tuition to start with. Maybe 20 years ago a college degree was pretty much guaranteed to get you a good job. Nowadays, is it really worth the money U.S colleges charge anymore?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've recently learned that for the most part student loans do n't exist in Japan .
Students ' tuition is either paid for by their family or they work part time while in school to pay it off .
I ca n't help but wonder how expensive college is in Japan for this to work.Maybe the issue is n't that student loan interest rates are too high but that colleges themselves charge too much in tuition to start with .
Maybe 20 years ago a college degree was pretty much guaranteed to get you a good job .
Nowadays , is it really worth the money U.S colleges charge anymore ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've recently learned that for the most part student loans don't exist in Japan.
Students' tuition is either paid for by their family or they work part time while in school to pay it off.
I can't help but wonder how expensive college is in Japan for this to work.Maybe the issue isn't that student loan interest rates are too high but that colleges themselves charge too much in tuition to start with.
Maybe 20 years ago a college degree was pretty much guaranteed to get you a good job.
Nowadays, is it really worth the money U.S colleges charge anymore?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792523</id>
	<title>Re:I wonder why you're not considered credit-worth</title>
	<author>ZekoMal</author>
	<datestamp>1255959120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most careers won't even look at you unless you have either 5 years of experience in their field, or a college degree. The careers that don't ask for such things are minimum wage, typically dead-end too.</p><p>So, for little Billy student his options are a little limited. He can either take the financially responsible route and go for those minimum wage jobs, working seven days a week and getting roughly $20k a year to live on. Maybe when he's in his 30's he can start on college with a responsible loan size and really get started on his life.</p><p>Or, little Billy student can take a huge risk and bank on his career choice being a good one. If he gets a good paying job, $70k a year let's say, the student loan debt will be manageable and easy to deal with. There's a lot of college-level jobs that aren't filling up because everybody tried to cram into IT.</p><p>Just to look back: Billy student can be responsible and put his future on hold for over a decade, or Billy student can be risky and plunge right in. If he's diligent and doesn't give up, he may be rewarded. If he fails, then he'll go back to the minimum wage jobs. Of course, the huge difference is that he'll be able to continue sending out his application to jobs his college degree fits with.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most careers wo n't even look at you unless you have either 5 years of experience in their field , or a college degree .
The careers that do n't ask for such things are minimum wage , typically dead-end too.So , for little Billy student his options are a little limited .
He can either take the financially responsible route and go for those minimum wage jobs , working seven days a week and getting roughly $ 20k a year to live on .
Maybe when he 's in his 30 's he can start on college with a responsible loan size and really get started on his life.Or , little Billy student can take a huge risk and bank on his career choice being a good one .
If he gets a good paying job , $ 70k a year let 's say , the student loan debt will be manageable and easy to deal with .
There 's a lot of college-level jobs that are n't filling up because everybody tried to cram into IT.Just to look back : Billy student can be responsible and put his future on hold for over a decade , or Billy student can be risky and plunge right in .
If he 's diligent and does n't give up , he may be rewarded .
If he fails , then he 'll go back to the minimum wage jobs .
Of course , the huge difference is that he 'll be able to continue sending out his application to jobs his college degree fits with .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most careers won't even look at you unless you have either 5 years of experience in their field, or a college degree.
The careers that don't ask for such things are minimum wage, typically dead-end too.So, for little Billy student his options are a little limited.
He can either take the financially responsible route and go for those minimum wage jobs, working seven days a week and getting roughly $20k a year to live on.
Maybe when he's in his 30's he can start on college with a responsible loan size and really get started on his life.Or, little Billy student can take a huge risk and bank on his career choice being a good one.
If he gets a good paying job, $70k a year let's say, the student loan debt will be manageable and easy to deal with.
There's a lot of college-level jobs that aren't filling up because everybody tried to cram into IT.Just to look back: Billy student can be responsible and put his future on hold for over a decade, or Billy student can be risky and plunge right in.
If he's diligent and doesn't give up, he may be rewarded.
If he fails, then he'll go back to the minimum wage jobs.
Of course, the huge difference is that he'll be able to continue sending out his application to jobs his college degree fits with.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789891</id>
	<title>Thank god I'm from Austria (Europe)</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255886340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>University is free.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>University is free .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>University is free.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789421</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255883160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>but tuition rates are a larger issue</p></div><p>Who the fuck lets these people in here?  Rules of US higher education: 1st Rule: You do not talk about tuition rates.  2nd Rule: You <b>DO NOT</b> talk about tuition rates.  Schools are hapless doers of good suffering under the yoke of capitalist oppression in an attempt to salvage at least some minds from a life of abject ignorance.  You <b>DO NOT</b> question tuition rates or rate of increases, accreditation criteria, etc.  Sufficient debt vehicles have been provided to fund your education.</p><p>How can you bring this up now, when so many wise and lucrative investments are having 'liquidity issues'?<br>http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&amp;sid=aHou7iMlBMN8</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>but tuition rates are a larger issueWho the fuck lets these people in here ?
Rules of US higher education : 1st Rule : You do not talk about tuition rates .
2nd Rule : You DO NOT talk about tuition rates .
Schools are hapless doers of good suffering under the yoke of capitalist oppression in an attempt to salvage at least some minds from a life of abject ignorance .
You DO NOT question tuition rates or rate of increases , accreditation criteria , etc .
Sufficient debt vehicles have been provided to fund your education.How can you bring this up now , when so many wise and lucrative investments are having 'liquidity issues ' ? http : //www.bloomberg.com/apps/news ? pid = 20601087&amp;sid = aHou7iMlBMN8</tokentext>
<sentencetext>but tuition rates are a larger issueWho the fuck lets these people in here?
Rules of US higher education: 1st Rule: You do not talk about tuition rates.
2nd Rule: You DO NOT talk about tuition rates.
Schools are hapless doers of good suffering under the yoke of capitalist oppression in an attempt to salvage at least some minds from a life of abject ignorance.
You DO NOT question tuition rates or rate of increases, accreditation criteria, etc.
Sufficient debt vehicles have been provided to fund your education.How can you bring this up now, when so many wise and lucrative investments are having 'liquidity issues'?http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&amp;sid=aHou7iMlBMN8
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789155</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790247</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255889040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Your post brings up the thing that really bothers me about the 'healthcare is a right' and 'education is a right' crowds.<br> <br>
I am all in favor of helping out people who don't have healthcare, but in order for those people to have healthcare, someone else is going to get screwed. It isn't like this stuff comes from the Universal Rights God, it is from the noodly appendage of someone else's wallet that the benefit must come. Calling it a 'right' kind of hides that fact.<br> <br>
And I am happy to pay for it. I'm happy to help someone out whenever I can. But geez, if you worked hard through high school, isn't the knowledge you gained from that hard work enough? I mean, you're going to college, you are working hard, and YOU are going to be the primary beneficiary of all your hard work.  Do you really want to force someone else to pay for it?  If you don't think it's truly worth it, don't do it.  If you don't want to penny pinch, then don't; go do something where you don't have to. If it is too costly, then it's probably not worth it. Go do something else.<br> <br>
But if it is worth it, then you're clearly getting your money's worth.  Good job, keep it up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Your post brings up the thing that really bothers me about the 'healthcare is a right ' and 'education is a right ' crowds .
I am all in favor of helping out people who do n't have healthcare , but in order for those people to have healthcare , someone else is going to get screwed .
It is n't like this stuff comes from the Universal Rights God , it is from the noodly appendage of someone else 's wallet that the benefit must come .
Calling it a 'right ' kind of hides that fact .
And I am happy to pay for it .
I 'm happy to help someone out whenever I can .
But geez , if you worked hard through high school , is n't the knowledge you gained from that hard work enough ?
I mean , you 're going to college , you are working hard , and YOU are going to be the primary beneficiary of all your hard work .
Do you really want to force someone else to pay for it ?
If you do n't think it 's truly worth it , do n't do it .
If you do n't want to penny pinch , then do n't ; go do something where you do n't have to .
If it is too costly , then it 's probably not worth it .
Go do something else .
But if it is worth it , then you 're clearly getting your money 's worth .
Good job , keep it up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your post brings up the thing that really bothers me about the 'healthcare is a right' and 'education is a right' crowds.
I am all in favor of helping out people who don't have healthcare, but in order for those people to have healthcare, someone else is going to get screwed.
It isn't like this stuff comes from the Universal Rights God, it is from the noodly appendage of someone else's wallet that the benefit must come.
Calling it a 'right' kind of hides that fact.
And I am happy to pay for it.
I'm happy to help someone out whenever I can.
But geez, if you worked hard through high school, isn't the knowledge you gained from that hard work enough?
I mean, you're going to college, you are working hard, and YOU are going to be the primary beneficiary of all your hard work.
Do you really want to force someone else to pay for it?
If you don't think it's truly worth it, don't do it.
If you don't want to penny pinch, then don't; go do something where you don't have to.
If it is too costly, then it's probably not worth it.
Go do something else.
But if it is worth it, then you're clearly getting your money's worth.
Good job, keep it up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789241</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789585</id>
	<title>I've read this before</title>
	<author>areusche</author>
	<datestamp>1255884180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext> I'm wondering if more students have been getting college loans and then leaving the country and changing citizenship. Basically you get a job abroad and renounce your citizenship and stop paying your loans. Cruel I know, but makes you wonder.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm wondering if more students have been getting college loans and then leaving the country and changing citizenship .
Basically you get a job abroad and renounce your citizenship and stop paying your loans .
Cruel I know , but makes you wonder .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I'm wondering if more students have been getting college loans and then leaving the country and changing citizenship.
Basically you get a job abroad and renounce your citizenship and stop paying your loans.
Cruel I know, but makes you wonder.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791735</id>
	<title>Student Loan in Finland</title>
	<author>Picardo85</author>
	<datestamp>1255951620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have a government backed student loan... but it's following the 3-month Euribor index. All our student loans follow some index here and the only difference is how much extra rate the bank charges except from the euribor. In my case it's &#189; a percent extra my bank takes. So a student loan of 8\% is rediculus in my opinion.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a government backed student loan... but it 's following the 3-month Euribor index .
All our student loans follow some index here and the only difference is how much extra rate the bank charges except from the euribor .
In my case it 's   a percent extra my bank takes .
So a student loan of 8 \ % is rediculus in my opinion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a government backed student loan... but it's following the 3-month Euribor index.
All our student loans follow some index here and the only difference is how much extra rate the bank charges except from the euribor.
In my case it's ½ a percent extra my bank takes.
So a student loan of 8\% is rediculus in my opinion.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789313</id>
	<title>The worthlessness of "education"</title>
	<author>Darkness404</author>
	<datestamp>1255882500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Its becoming increasingly obvious that education is more or less worthless for the -vast- majority of occupations. While a top degree will perhaps land you a job, people are starting to wonder why. The CEOs with degrees at Harvard are running companies into the ground. While education is a "nice thing" perhaps its time to start, as a society rebelling against unneeded education, especially with the internet. 25 years ago to find a lot of stuff you would need to spend time researching things either at a public library or at a college library. Today that is no longer the case. Similarly, even though technology has expanded, the skills needed to do a job have not for most careers, if anything technology has automated many of the tedious, time consuming and error-prone tasks. Knowledge is free, education is not. Knowledge is needed at most jobs, education in all honesty is not. I think its time for society to realize this.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Its becoming increasingly obvious that education is more or less worthless for the -vast- majority of occupations .
While a top degree will perhaps land you a job , people are starting to wonder why .
The CEOs with degrees at Harvard are running companies into the ground .
While education is a " nice thing " perhaps its time to start , as a society rebelling against unneeded education , especially with the internet .
25 years ago to find a lot of stuff you would need to spend time researching things either at a public library or at a college library .
Today that is no longer the case .
Similarly , even though technology has expanded , the skills needed to do a job have not for most careers , if anything technology has automated many of the tedious , time consuming and error-prone tasks .
Knowledge is free , education is not .
Knowledge is needed at most jobs , education in all honesty is not .
I think its time for society to realize this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Its becoming increasingly obvious that education is more or less worthless for the -vast- majority of occupations.
While a top degree will perhaps land you a job, people are starting to wonder why.
The CEOs with degrees at Harvard are running companies into the ground.
While education is a "nice thing" perhaps its time to start, as a society rebelling against unneeded education, especially with the internet.
25 years ago to find a lot of stuff you would need to spend time researching things either at a public library or at a college library.
Today that is no longer the case.
Similarly, even though technology has expanded, the skills needed to do a job have not for most careers, if anything technology has automated many of the tedious, time consuming and error-prone tasks.
Knowledge is free, education is not.
Knowledge is needed at most jobs, education in all honesty is not.
I think its time for society to realize this.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789407</id>
	<title>Reform is needed.</title>
	<author>Criton</author>
	<datestamp>1255883040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>The rules on college loans does need reform and the interest rates should be reduced.

Plus the cost of higher education needs to be reigned in to levels that are affordable to the middle class.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The rules on college loans does need reform and the interest rates should be reduced .
Plus the cost of higher education needs to be reigned in to levels that are affordable to the middle class .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The rules on college loans does need reform and the interest rates should be reduced.
Plus the cost of higher education needs to be reigned in to levels that are affordable to the middle class.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791039</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>DerangedAlchemist</author>
	<datestamp>1255983960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Train the most able not stupid rich kids if you want to remain competitive.  Degrees are less value if they are not indicators of talent or ability.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Train the most able not stupid rich kids if you want to remain competitive .
Degrees are less value if they are not indicators of talent or ability .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Train the most able not stupid rich kids if you want to remain competitive.
Degrees are less value if they are not indicators of talent or ability.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790247</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789741</id>
	<title>Re:Restating the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255885260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Have you looked at UK house prices recently? They're obscene.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Have you looked at UK house prices recently ?
They 're obscene .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have you looked at UK house prices recently?
They're obscene.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789305</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795879</id>
	<title>Re:Loans are an option not a requirement.</title>
	<author>DNS-and-BIND</author>
	<datestamp>1255974360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>At least get something that requires you be physically present, or that has national security implications.</i> <p>Ha ha so true!   Kids listen!   Hell, 99 out of 100 Indians and Chinese have degrees from Photoshop University anyway.  But national security is something where you can't go wrong being a natural-born American.  You can't be replaced!  Just get in to the military at 18 so you have no previous record, get a clearance while there, and get out and into the industry.  Seriously.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At least get something that requires you be physically present , or that has national security implications .
Ha ha so true !
Kids listen !
Hell , 99 out of 100 Indians and Chinese have degrees from Photoshop University anyway .
But national security is something where you ca n't go wrong being a natural-born American .
You ca n't be replaced !
Just get in to the military at 18 so you have no previous record , get a clearance while there , and get out and into the industry .
Seriously .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At least get something that requires you be physically present, or that has national security implications.
Ha ha so true!
Kids listen!
Hell, 99 out of 100 Indians and Chinese have degrees from Photoshop University anyway.
But national security is something where you can't go wrong being a natural-born American.
You can't be replaced!
Just get in to the military at 18 so you have no previous record, get a clearance while there, and get out and into the industry.
Seriously.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792283</id>
	<title>They made the choice.</title>
	<author>bryanp</author>
	<datestamp>1255957260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They made the choice to take out the big loans and now they're bitching about the terms they signed.  Boo hoo.</p><p>And yes, big student loans are a choice.  I worked full time 6 days a week and took classes at night where I could squeeze them in.  It took me longer to get there, but I came out the other end with a minimum of student loans that I then paid off in a couple of years.  (and no, there was no walking through the snow)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They made the choice to take out the big loans and now they 're bitching about the terms they signed .
Boo hoo.And yes , big student loans are a choice .
I worked full time 6 days a week and took classes at night where I could squeeze them in .
It took me longer to get there , but I came out the other end with a minimum of student loans that I then paid off in a couple of years .
( and no , there was no walking through the snow )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They made the choice to take out the big loans and now they're bitching about the terms they signed.
Boo hoo.And yes, big student loans are a choice.
I worked full time 6 days a week and took classes at night where I could squeeze them in.
It took me longer to get there, but I came out the other end with a minimum of student loans that I then paid off in a couple of years.
(and no, there was no walking through the snow)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792035</id>
	<title>Re:Restating the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255954860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Give me a break.  There are scholarships for non-white, non-male people.  You will eliminate 99\% of the scholarships available by just putting X's in the boxes labeled Caucasian and Male.  I was fortunate enough to find about $8K in scholarships.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Give me a break .
There are scholarships for non-white , non-male people .
You will eliminate 99 \ % of the scholarships available by just putting X 's in the boxes labeled Caucasian and Male .
I was fortunate enough to find about $ 8K in scholarships .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Give me a break.
There are scholarships for non-white, non-male people.
You will eliminate 99\% of the scholarships available by just putting X's in the boxes labeled Caucasian and Male.
I was fortunate enough to find about $8K in scholarships.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789639</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789637</id>
	<title>Re:Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255884480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe you should work for a few more years paying down your loans instead of going to grad school.  What do you think grad school is, an entitlement!?  Do you think the taxpayers should subsidize your pursuit of advanced knowledge even more than they have been already?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe you should work for a few more years paying down your loans instead of going to grad school .
What do you think grad school is , an entitlement ! ?
Do you think the taxpayers should subsidize your pursuit of advanced knowledge even more than they have been already ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe you should work for a few more years paying down your loans instead of going to grad school.
What do you think grad school is, an entitlement!?
Do you think the taxpayers should subsidize your pursuit of advanced knowledge even more than they have been already?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789281</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795341</id>
	<title>Re:Waaa, Waaa, frikin' WAAAAA!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255972320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is it safe to assume you have a PhD and not in economics?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)<br>Assuming it did not take you 10 years to get a bachelors, it seems safe to assume you did a PhD in a field where tuition and a stipend were provided to you.  These programs are primarily funded, as you should know, by the US taxpayer in the form of grants provided to the PI you worked for.  It seems somewhat hypocritical to accept government funding for your education and rant that others should pay for theirs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is it safe to assume you have a PhD and not in economics ?
; - ) Assuming it did not take you 10 years to get a bachelors , it seems safe to assume you did a PhD in a field where tuition and a stipend were provided to you .
These programs are primarily funded , as you should know , by the US taxpayer in the form of grants provided to the PI you worked for .
It seems somewhat hypocritical to accept government funding for your education and rant that others should pay for theirs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is it safe to assume you have a PhD and not in economics?
;-)Assuming it did not take you 10 years to get a bachelors, it seems safe to assume you did a PhD in a field where tuition and a stipend were provided to you.
These programs are primarily funded, as you should know, by the US taxpayer in the form of grants provided to the PI you worked for.
It seems somewhat hypocritical to accept government funding for your education and rant that others should pay for theirs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792859</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790385</id>
	<title>not the real newsletter.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255890120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I like your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.</p><p>Now since I'm an engineer, that involves at some time during the process of education access to big, heavy, costly machinery. How will one be "creative" there?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I like your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.Now since I 'm an engineer , that involves at some time during the process of education access to big , heavy , costly machinery .
How will one be " creative " there ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I like your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.Now since I'm an engineer, that involves at some time during the process of education access to big, heavy, costly machinery.
How will one be "creative" there?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789297</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29799885</id>
	<title>Very dumb</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255945680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I find this ridiculous. I'm 20, and have a credit score of 750. I can't get a loan for less than 7.5\%??? Very stupid.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I find this ridiculous .
I 'm 20 , and have a credit score of 750 .
I ca n't get a loan for less than 7.5 \ % ? ? ?
Very stupid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I find this ridiculous.
I'm 20, and have a credit score of 750.
I can't get a loan for less than 7.5\%???
Very stupid.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792753</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>level\_headed\_midwest</author>
	<datestamp>1255960680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Universities like the one you went to continue to stay in business because you and others continue to pay a large premium to go there. If nobody was willing to pay the higher tuition to go there versus going to a state school, then the more-expensive private university would go out of business.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Universities like the one you went to continue to stay in business because you and others continue to pay a large premium to go there .
If nobody was willing to pay the higher tuition to go there versus going to a state school , then the more-expensive private university would go out of business .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Universities like the one you went to continue to stay in business because you and others continue to pay a large premium to go there.
If nobody was willing to pay the higher tuition to go there versus going to a state school, then the more-expensive private university would go out of business.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789155</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793093</id>
	<title>Re:Pissed at the bail-outs</title>
	<author>RabidMonkey</author>
	<datestamp>1255962600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The answer is to to do both, not one or the other.</p><p>Give them free food while they work to develop their economy and infrastructure, then slowly turn off the "Free" as they manage to bring new sources of local food online.  It's very hard for people to build a road when they're starving, or sick with something that could be treated easily with $2 of medicine.  Once the roads are built, and irrigation ditches dug, they can start farming and providing for themselves, and the aid then turns off slowly, or is shifted to more advanced aid.  Instead of helping with irrigation and roads and farms and healthcare, start building schools, factories, putting more people to work.  that will increase the ability for people to support themselves, and help develop spinoff industry (who's going to fix the tractors on that new farm?  who's going to teach? etc).</p><p>I agree with your sentiment, but I think there needs to be an initial helping hand while the markets etc develop.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The answer is to to do both , not one or the other.Give them free food while they work to develop their economy and infrastructure , then slowly turn off the " Free " as they manage to bring new sources of local food online .
It 's very hard for people to build a road when they 're starving , or sick with something that could be treated easily with $ 2 of medicine .
Once the roads are built , and irrigation ditches dug , they can start farming and providing for themselves , and the aid then turns off slowly , or is shifted to more advanced aid .
Instead of helping with irrigation and roads and farms and healthcare , start building schools , factories , putting more people to work .
that will increase the ability for people to support themselves , and help develop spinoff industry ( who 's going to fix the tractors on that new farm ?
who 's going to teach ?
etc ) .I agree with your sentiment , but I think there needs to be an initial helping hand while the markets etc develop .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The answer is to to do both, not one or the other.Give them free food while they work to develop their economy and infrastructure, then slowly turn off the "Free" as they manage to bring new sources of local food online.
It's very hard for people to build a road when they're starving, or sick with something that could be treated easily with $2 of medicine.
Once the roads are built, and irrigation ditches dug, they can start farming and providing for themselves, and the aid then turns off slowly, or is shifted to more advanced aid.
Instead of helping with irrigation and roads and farms and healthcare, start building schools, factories, putting more people to work.
that will increase the ability for people to support themselves, and help develop spinoff industry (who's going to fix the tractors on that new farm?
who's going to teach?
etc).I agree with your sentiment, but I think there needs to be an initial helping hand while the markets etc develop.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790145</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789305</id>
	<title>Restating the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255882440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>The problem is one of treating education as a business like any other. The country obtains a benefit from having an educated citizenry, and allowing education of this type to be treated as just another profit-center is at best short-sighted, at worst actively hostile to the country's best interests. From this basic problem, everything else flows.
<br> <br>
I'm from the UK, and just recently I've been reflecting on the things that I took for granted in the UK that are pay-for over here in the USA. Don't get me wrong, I love living here, I've just married an USAsian who's simply wonderful, but there are things I miss...
<br> <br>
Primarily of course, is universal healthcare. The NHS is so far and away better than the situation we have here in the US that it's just not funny. Leaving that argument aside, the other major thing is education. My new wife and I were thinking about where any future offspring might be educated...
<br> <br>
If the USA stays the same course as it's currently on, I think my children (as UK citizens by birthright) may be going to the UK for their education. It's a lot cheaper, it'll broaden their minds by travelling, and the quality is generally very high. <br> <br>
Oh how things have changed. I no longer think of the USA as being the gold-standard of higher education. Now I think of it as being just a way of transferring money from rich people to educated people.
<br> <br>
As it happens, my wife paid off her student loans (for a JD/MBA) this evening (well, they'll settle on Tuesday). For the cost she just paid, we could buy a small house in the UK. The only debt higher is our mortgage, and living in a nice house in a nice part of the Bay area, that's expected.
<br> <br>
I didn't pay for my education (although these days if you don't go to Scotland you pay something in the UK - it's a *lot* less than over here in the US though). I gave the UK about 10 years of higher taxes as a result - probably less than they were expecting - but moved to the USA for the nicer weather<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
<br> <br>
Simon.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is one of treating education as a business like any other .
The country obtains a benefit from having an educated citizenry , and allowing education of this type to be treated as just another profit-center is at best short-sighted , at worst actively hostile to the country 's best interests .
From this basic problem , everything else flows .
I 'm from the UK , and just recently I 've been reflecting on the things that I took for granted in the UK that are pay-for over here in the USA .
Do n't get me wrong , I love living here , I 've just married an USAsian who 's simply wonderful , but there are things I miss.. . Primarily of course , is universal healthcare .
The NHS is so far and away better than the situation we have here in the US that it 's just not funny .
Leaving that argument aside , the other major thing is education .
My new wife and I were thinking about where any future offspring might be educated.. . If the USA stays the same course as it 's currently on , I think my children ( as UK citizens by birthright ) may be going to the UK for their education .
It 's a lot cheaper , it 'll broaden their minds by travelling , and the quality is generally very high .
Oh how things have changed .
I no longer think of the USA as being the gold-standard of higher education .
Now I think of it as being just a way of transferring money from rich people to educated people .
As it happens , my wife paid off her student loans ( for a JD/MBA ) this evening ( well , they 'll settle on Tuesday ) .
For the cost she just paid , we could buy a small house in the UK .
The only debt higher is our mortgage , and living in a nice house in a nice part of the Bay area , that 's expected .
I did n't pay for my education ( although these days if you do n't go to Scotland you pay something in the UK - it 's a * lot * less than over here in the US though ) .
I gave the UK about 10 years of higher taxes as a result - probably less than they were expecting - but moved to the USA for the nicer weather : ) Simon .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is one of treating education as a business like any other.
The country obtains a benefit from having an educated citizenry, and allowing education of this type to be treated as just another profit-center is at best short-sighted, at worst actively hostile to the country's best interests.
From this basic problem, everything else flows.
I'm from the UK, and just recently I've been reflecting on the things that I took for granted in the UK that are pay-for over here in the USA.
Don't get me wrong, I love living here, I've just married an USAsian who's simply wonderful, but there are things I miss...
 
Primarily of course, is universal healthcare.
The NHS is so far and away better than the situation we have here in the US that it's just not funny.
Leaving that argument aside, the other major thing is education.
My new wife and I were thinking about where any future offspring might be educated...
 
If the USA stays the same course as it's currently on, I think my children (as UK citizens by birthright) may be going to the UK for their education.
It's a lot cheaper, it'll broaden their minds by travelling, and the quality is generally very high.
Oh how things have changed.
I no longer think of the USA as being the gold-standard of higher education.
Now I think of it as being just a way of transferring money from rich people to educated people.
As it happens, my wife paid off her student loans (for a JD/MBA) this evening (well, they'll settle on Tuesday).
For the cost she just paid, we could buy a small house in the UK.
The only debt higher is our mortgage, and living in a nice house in a nice part of the Bay area, that's expected.
I didn't pay for my education (although these days if you don't go to Scotland you pay something in the UK - it's a *lot* less than over here in the US though).
I gave the UK about 10 years of higher taxes as a result - probably less than they were expecting - but moved to the USA for the nicer weather :)
 
Simon.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794999</id>
	<title>Re:Nothing like starting life $100K in the hole</title>
	<author>SydShamino</author>
	<datestamp>1255971000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why don't you start a school?  Come up with a curriculum for one or two degree programs.  Hire some of those high-debt grad school graduates who need to pay off their own loans for fair pay and, if they want, a free cottage on campus.  Your professors are going to <i>teach</i> a lot more than those at most colleges, because your school won't waste half it's time on "research".  It will focus all its time on creating a quality curriculum and providing a solid education for its students at an affordable price.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why do n't you start a school ?
Come up with a curriculum for one or two degree programs .
Hire some of those high-debt grad school graduates who need to pay off their own loans for fair pay and , if they want , a free cottage on campus .
Your professors are going to teach a lot more than those at most colleges , because your school wo n't waste half it 's time on " research " .
It will focus all its time on creating a quality curriculum and providing a solid education for its students at an affordable price .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why don't you start a school?
Come up with a curriculum for one or two degree programs.
Hire some of those high-debt grad school graduates who need to pay off their own loans for fair pay and, if they want, a free cottage on campus.
Your professors are going to teach a lot more than those at most colleges, because your school won't waste half it's time on "research".
It will focus all its time on creating a quality curriculum and providing a solid education for its students at an affordable price.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789425</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794307</id>
	<title>Re:Agreed</title>
	<author>rwade</author>
	<datestamp>1255967760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If so, the rate reflects the governments rate which it will pay out, and other fees that might not be recovered, in the event of a default.</p></div><p>That is just patently untrue. That rate reflects whatever banks can get away with charging people and still keep loan volume at a preferred level -- that is, price versus quantity or <i>supply and demand</i>.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If so , the rate reflects the governments rate which it will pay out , and other fees that might not be recovered , in the event of a default.That is just patently untrue .
That rate reflects whatever banks can get away with charging people and still keep loan volume at a preferred level -- that is , price versus quantity or supply and demand .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If so, the rate reflects the governments rate which it will pay out, and other fees that might not be recovered, in the event of a default.That is just patently untrue.
That rate reflects whatever banks can get away with charging people and still keep loan volume at a preferred level -- that is, price versus quantity or supply and demand.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789949</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792327</id>
	<title>This is in EVERYONE's interest</title>
	<author>Fross</author>
	<datestamp>1255957680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't understand all the hate on this article. "You should have known what you were signing up for" "College degrees are worthless" "You're making six figures, you can afford it", a lot of rage, also some contradictory posts, but all of them lacking the basic tenet: Education is good.</p><p>The more people who go to university, the more qualified the nation as a whole. This increases their wealth and power internationally, as well as improving quality of life on a basic scale. The more wealthy and powerful they are, the more revenue they bring the government, and it goes on from there. Government investing in people and training is a good thing, surely?</p><p>The reason it's so expensive is self-fulfilling - people are prepared to have a lower quality of life (remortgage their home, work while they study) to fund it, so the universities jack up their prices to match. Just think, for the $84000 debt in the article, one could have hired a graduate for maybe a couple of years, and got 40 hours 1-1 training! Univesity does not cost tens of thousands of dollars per student per year to run. The money's being siphoned off to the private sector.</p><p>By making university less attainable, you end up with a lower quality workforce. This is why immigrants are flocking to the US, because they come from countries where education is more affordable, so they are more qualified. They're taking jobs (dey tk ur jerb!) because the american people is not educated enough as a whole to fill the market. The thing that I really don't understand, is you have a world leader country in terms of money, lifestyle, technology, science and research, why is it that poorer country immigrants are working for you, rather than you being paid large amounts of money to go over to their countries and bring them up to speed?</p><p>I think american corporations are rich; they have the money, the resources, they need the skills. The american people are increasingly education-poor, because the system doesn't help them. And increasingly, the corporations will take workers from other countries, who have the qualifications and skills necessary. The government of these countries (India, some European countries etc) are enabling their people, educating them, and it's working - they're getting well paid jobs in America! The American government needs to support their people to at least the same degree, make education available as a first step, rather than a challenge, and get their population being world leaders.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't understand all the hate on this article .
" You should have known what you were signing up for " " College degrees are worthless " " You 're making six figures , you can afford it " , a lot of rage , also some contradictory posts , but all of them lacking the basic tenet : Education is good.The more people who go to university , the more qualified the nation as a whole .
This increases their wealth and power internationally , as well as improving quality of life on a basic scale .
The more wealthy and powerful they are , the more revenue they bring the government , and it goes on from there .
Government investing in people and training is a good thing , surely ? The reason it 's so expensive is self-fulfilling - people are prepared to have a lower quality of life ( remortgage their home , work while they study ) to fund it , so the universities jack up their prices to match .
Just think , for the $ 84000 debt in the article , one could have hired a graduate for maybe a couple of years , and got 40 hours 1-1 training !
Univesity does not cost tens of thousands of dollars per student per year to run .
The money 's being siphoned off to the private sector.By making university less attainable , you end up with a lower quality workforce .
This is why immigrants are flocking to the US , because they come from countries where education is more affordable , so they are more qualified .
They 're taking jobs ( dey tk ur jerb !
) because the american people is not educated enough as a whole to fill the market .
The thing that I really do n't understand , is you have a world leader country in terms of money , lifestyle , technology , science and research , why is it that poorer country immigrants are working for you , rather than you being paid large amounts of money to go over to their countries and bring them up to speed ? I think american corporations are rich ; they have the money , the resources , they need the skills .
The american people are increasingly education-poor , because the system does n't help them .
And increasingly , the corporations will take workers from other countries , who have the qualifications and skills necessary .
The government of these countries ( India , some European countries etc ) are enabling their people , educating them , and it 's working - they 're getting well paid jobs in America !
The American government needs to support their people to at least the same degree , make education available as a first step , rather than a challenge , and get their population being world leaders .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't understand all the hate on this article.
"You should have known what you were signing up for" "College degrees are worthless" "You're making six figures, you can afford it", a lot of rage, also some contradictory posts, but all of them lacking the basic tenet: Education is good.The more people who go to university, the more qualified the nation as a whole.
This increases their wealth and power internationally, as well as improving quality of life on a basic scale.
The more wealthy and powerful they are, the more revenue they bring the government, and it goes on from there.
Government investing in people and training is a good thing, surely?The reason it's so expensive is self-fulfilling - people are prepared to have a lower quality of life (remortgage their home, work while they study) to fund it, so the universities jack up their prices to match.
Just think, for the $84000 debt in the article, one could have hired a graduate for maybe a couple of years, and got 40 hours 1-1 training!
Univesity does not cost tens of thousands of dollars per student per year to run.
The money's being siphoned off to the private sector.By making university less attainable, you end up with a lower quality workforce.
This is why immigrants are flocking to the US, because they come from countries where education is more affordable, so they are more qualified.
They're taking jobs (dey tk ur jerb!
) because the american people is not educated enough as a whole to fill the market.
The thing that I really don't understand, is you have a world leader country in terms of money, lifestyle, technology, science and research, why is it that poorer country immigrants are working for you, rather than you being paid large amounts of money to go over to their countries and bring them up to speed?I think american corporations are rich; they have the money, the resources, they need the skills.
The american people are increasingly education-poor, because the system doesn't help them.
And increasingly, the corporations will take workers from other countries, who have the qualifications and skills necessary.
The government of these countries (India, some European countries etc) are enabling their people, educating them, and it's working - they're getting well paid jobs in America!
The American government needs to support their people to at least the same degree, make education available as a first step, rather than a challenge, and get their population being world leaders.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791697</id>
	<title>Only $85,000</title>
	<author>Helldesk Hound</author>
	<datestamp>1255951200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; "Like many recent college grads, Steven Lee finds himself<br>&gt; unemployed in one of the roughest job markets in decades<br>&gt; and saddled with a big pile of debt -- he owes about $84,000<br>&gt; in student loans for undergrad and grad school.</p><p>He should count himself lucky that he's only got an $85,000 student debt.</p><p>I know of people who have well over $100,000 student debt as their Veterinarian course fees were hideously expensive.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; " Like many recent college grads , Steven Lee finds himself &gt; unemployed in one of the roughest job markets in decades &gt; and saddled with a big pile of debt -- he owes about $ 84,000 &gt; in student loans for undergrad and grad school.He should count himself lucky that he 's only got an $ 85,000 student debt.I know of people who have well over $ 100,000 student debt as their Veterinarian course fees were hideously expensive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; "Like many recent college grads, Steven Lee finds himself&gt; unemployed in one of the roughest job markets in decades&gt; and saddled with a big pile of debt -- he owes about $84,000&gt; in student loans for undergrad and grad school.He should count himself lucky that he's only got an $85,000 student debt.I know of people who have well over $100,000 student debt as their Veterinarian course fees were hideously expensive.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790119</id>
	<title>Worthless generation</title>
	<author>incognito84</author>
	<datestamp>1255887900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm in the same boat. Tonnes of student loans, struggling to pay it off and find work in my field.
<br>
<br>
We're going to be a lost generation. By the time the jobs come back, no one will want to hire our tired, old faces when they can pick and choose from the next naive and optimistic generation.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm in the same boat .
Tonnes of student loans , struggling to pay it off and find work in my field .
We 're going to be a lost generation .
By the time the jobs come back , no one will want to hire our tired , old faces when they can pick and choose from the next naive and optimistic generation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm in the same boat.
Tonnes of student loans, struggling to pay it off and find work in my field.
We're going to be a lost generation.
By the time the jobs come back, no one will want to hire our tired, old faces when they can pick and choose from the next naive and optimistic generation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790343</id>
	<title>Re:credit-unworthy or just greedy?</title>
	<author>eh2o</author>
	<datestamp>1255889760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The repayment already is mandatory, federal loans can't be cleared by declaring bankruptcy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The repayment already is mandatory , federal loans ca n't be cleared by declaring bankruptcy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The repayment already is mandatory, federal loans can't be cleared by declaring bankruptcy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789285</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792787</id>
	<title>I'm not complaining</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255960980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I live in Denmark, here students get roughly 1000 dollars from the government each month, and studentloans have intrests of about 4\% (however, they use a system which makes it almost impossible to figure out exactly what it is untill you're done with you education and have to start paying it back). Still, the 1000 dollars a month means that most don't need to take out student loans.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I live in Denmark , here students get roughly 1000 dollars from the government each month , and studentloans have intrests of about 4 \ % ( however , they use a system which makes it almost impossible to figure out exactly what it is untill you 're done with you education and have to start paying it back ) .
Still , the 1000 dollars a month means that most do n't need to take out student loans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live in Denmark, here students get roughly 1000 dollars from the government each month, and studentloans have intrests of about 4\% (however, they use a system which makes it almost impossible to figure out exactly what it is untill you're done with you education and have to start paying it back).
Still, the 1000 dollars a month means that most don't need to take out student loans.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792613</id>
	<title>Hate to be a buzzkill</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255959900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Dude, politicians have always claimed that education is the most important thing when they campaign. However, they rarely EVER deliver on their promises. And if they do try, it's only because they'll be raising your taxes as well. As far as the student loans go, you were the one who took them out. Other people go to crap schools for cheap just to get a degree and a stable job until they can actually AFFORD to go to schools were you probably used your student loan money on. It's a gamble, and you lost. Call me harsh, but that's an existential problem. You made the choice, regardless of the circumstances. Now you have to deal with the consequences. But don't get too upset, when you do suceed (and you will, it's statistically bound to  happen) you can take all the credit because you made the right decisions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Dude , politicians have always claimed that education is the most important thing when they campaign .
However , they rarely EVER deliver on their promises .
And if they do try , it 's only because they 'll be raising your taxes as well .
As far as the student loans go , you were the one who took them out .
Other people go to crap schools for cheap just to get a degree and a stable job until they can actually AFFORD to go to schools were you probably used your student loan money on .
It 's a gamble , and you lost .
Call me harsh , but that 's an existential problem .
You made the choice , regardless of the circumstances .
Now you have to deal with the consequences .
But do n't get too upset , when you do suceed ( and you will , it 's statistically bound to happen ) you can take all the credit because you made the right decisions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dude, politicians have always claimed that education is the most important thing when they campaign.
However, they rarely EVER deliver on their promises.
And if they do try, it's only because they'll be raising your taxes as well.
As far as the student loans go, you were the one who took them out.
Other people go to crap schools for cheap just to get a degree and a stable job until they can actually AFFORD to go to schools were you probably used your student loan money on.
It's a gamble, and you lost.
Call me harsh, but that's an existential problem.
You made the choice, regardless of the circumstances.
Now you have to deal with the consequences.
But don't get too upset, when you do suceed (and you will, it's statistically bound to  happen) you can take all the credit because you made the right decisions.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790761</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255893840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you worked 3 years at minimum wage jobs that is a good indication that you are not ready for college.  I have not worked minimum wage since college but then if you were a dependable worker for anything over a month you got a raise.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you worked 3 years at minimum wage jobs that is a good indication that you are not ready for college .
I have not worked minimum wage since college but then if you were a dependable worker for anything over a month you got a raise .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you worked 3 years at minimum wage jobs that is a good indication that you are not ready for college.
I have not worked minimum wage since college but then if you were a dependable worker for anything over a month you got a raise.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789241</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792581</id>
	<title>Marketable Commodity</title>
	<author>TheMeuge</author>
	<datestamp>1255959600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Education is a marketable commodity. Give me one good reason why private educational institutions should charge less for it. Other than "out of the goodness of their hearts" I don't think you can. This is the same entitlement-bound "thinking" that manifests itself as the "why does profession X make so much money... they should really make less... how hard could it be...", etc...</p><p>No one owes you an education. The government WILL provide you with 12 years of education... and if you cannot afford private universities, there are public colleges that are substantially cheaper. Or you could, you know, study and get a scholarship. If you're a B+ student or higher, you'll be able to get a scholarship somewhere, at least a partial one.</p><p>So please stop whining. Yes education is expensive (trust me, I know). But on average, it drastically increases lifetime earnings... so look at it as an investment. Do it, or don't do it... but please stop thinking that someone owes it to you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Education is a marketable commodity .
Give me one good reason why private educational institutions should charge less for it .
Other than " out of the goodness of their hearts " I do n't think you can .
This is the same entitlement-bound " thinking " that manifests itself as the " why does profession X make so much money... they should really make less... how hard could it be... " , etc...No one owes you an education .
The government WILL provide you with 12 years of education... and if you can not afford private universities , there are public colleges that are substantially cheaper .
Or you could , you know , study and get a scholarship .
If you 're a B + student or higher , you 'll be able to get a scholarship somewhere , at least a partial one.So please stop whining .
Yes education is expensive ( trust me , I know ) .
But on average , it drastically increases lifetime earnings... so look at it as an investment .
Do it , or do n't do it... but please stop thinking that someone owes it to you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Education is a marketable commodity.
Give me one good reason why private educational institutions should charge less for it.
Other than "out of the goodness of their hearts" I don't think you can.
This is the same entitlement-bound "thinking" that manifests itself as the "why does profession X make so much money... they should really make less... how hard could it be...", etc...No one owes you an education.
The government WILL provide you with 12 years of education... and if you cannot afford private universities, there are public colleges that are substantially cheaper.
Or you could, you know, study and get a scholarship.
If you're a B+ student or higher, you'll be able to get a scholarship somewhere, at least a partial one.So please stop whining.
Yes education is expensive (trust me, I know).
But on average, it drastically increases lifetime earnings... so look at it as an investment.
Do it, or don't do it... but please stop thinking that someone owes it to you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789155</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789285</id>
	<title>credit-unworthy or just greedy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255882200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If students are a "credit-unworthy lot" then limit the amounts they can borrow or make it a fixed amount that they must repay.  Charging a higher interest rate for "credit-unworthy" people makes it more likely that they'll default, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.  This holds true for all borrowers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If students are a " credit-unworthy lot " then limit the amounts they can borrow or make it a fixed amount that they must repay .
Charging a higher interest rate for " credit-unworthy " people makes it more likely that they 'll default , making it a self-fulfilling prophecy .
This holds true for all borrowers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If students are a "credit-unworthy lot" then limit the amounts they can borrow or make it a fixed amount that they must repay.
Charging a higher interest rate for "credit-unworthy" people makes it more likely that they'll default, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
This holds true for all borrowers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795161</id>
	<title>Re:Restating the problem</title>
	<author>CodeBuster</author>
	<datestamp>1255971720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The country obtains a benefit from having an educated citizenry</p></div><p>While it is true that nations derive some non-zero benefit from a more educated citizenry, the benefit to society from investing in individual students is often overstated. The benefits of an advanced education (college level or above) accrue mainly to the individual receiving that education and not as much to society in general; so it makes sense that cost of that education be mostly paid by the one receiving the most benefit: the individual student.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The country obtains a benefit from having an educated citizenryWhile it is true that nations derive some non-zero benefit from a more educated citizenry , the benefit to society from investing in individual students is often overstated .
The benefits of an advanced education ( college level or above ) accrue mainly to the individual receiving that education and not as much to society in general ; so it makes sense that cost of that education be mostly paid by the one receiving the most benefit : the individual student .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The country obtains a benefit from having an educated citizenryWhile it is true that nations derive some non-zero benefit from a more educated citizenry, the benefit to society from investing in individual students is often overstated.
The benefits of an advanced education (college level or above) accrue mainly to the individual receiving that education and not as much to society in general; so it makes sense that cost of that education be mostly paid by the one receiving the most benefit: the individual student.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789305</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795413</id>
	<title>Further education is discouraged...</title>
	<author>HerculesMO</author>
	<datestamp>1255972620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think most people accept the idea of getting an undergraduate degree. For me as a person who can 'hire', I don't look at a degree as any sign of information, or intelligence -- I look at it as a sign of dedication and an ability to stick with something and finish it. As I often tell people, what you learned in college is already 4 years out of date. Granted, I hire for technical positions so it doesn't apply universally.</p><p>Postgrad degrees honestly, have a diminishing return. PHD students are diminishing, and gladly for the VERY smart and outlandish people (my brother is one) they get full rides to school because they spent so much time 'preparing' for grad school. Other people don't. So the 'next generation' of scholars is going to thin out, while people like my brother will be able to command a great salary because he's in an ever shrinking field of academia. The problem multiplies, as fewer scholars = fewer teachers = more demand = higher university rates for those who CAN teach.</p><p>To boot, we don't generally VALUE those PHDs or advanced degrees. Why bother with a PHD, or MD, when you can make more money in less time getting a finance degree, and playing with other people's money, walking away with big bonuses and not worrying about long term affects because your reimbursement is right now. The emphasis we as a society put on the 'finance' field is greatly alluring, even in a down economy because you have people making millions by moving numbers around in Excel (I worked Wall Street on a hedge fund as a BA, I did the manipulations). Personally, I'd love to see more doctors (especially as our healthcare needs increase), more teachers, etc -- but our society doesn't seem to value those people and thus, we are left with the biggest part of our economy pumped into "defense" and now bailouts for people that got rich already and screwed the economy up.</p><p>I don't know the answer, but I am sure the path we are on is wrong. That said, my student loans are about $70k right now, but they are privatized and pegged to the prime rate, which for the last few years has been far better than what the government is offering. And for those who think you can write off interest -- it's only to a certain point. You can't write it ALL off if you paid $8000+ (like I have for many years) in interest only payments.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think most people accept the idea of getting an undergraduate degree .
For me as a person who can 'hire ' , I do n't look at a degree as any sign of information , or intelligence -- I look at it as a sign of dedication and an ability to stick with something and finish it .
As I often tell people , what you learned in college is already 4 years out of date .
Granted , I hire for technical positions so it does n't apply universally.Postgrad degrees honestly , have a diminishing return .
PHD students are diminishing , and gladly for the VERY smart and outlandish people ( my brother is one ) they get full rides to school because they spent so much time 'preparing ' for grad school .
Other people do n't .
So the 'next generation ' of scholars is going to thin out , while people like my brother will be able to command a great salary because he 's in an ever shrinking field of academia .
The problem multiplies , as fewer scholars = fewer teachers = more demand = higher university rates for those who CAN teach.To boot , we do n't generally VALUE those PHDs or advanced degrees .
Why bother with a PHD , or MD , when you can make more money in less time getting a finance degree , and playing with other people 's money , walking away with big bonuses and not worrying about long term affects because your reimbursement is right now .
The emphasis we as a society put on the 'finance ' field is greatly alluring , even in a down economy because you have people making millions by moving numbers around in Excel ( I worked Wall Street on a hedge fund as a BA , I did the manipulations ) .
Personally , I 'd love to see more doctors ( especially as our healthcare needs increase ) , more teachers , etc -- but our society does n't seem to value those people and thus , we are left with the biggest part of our economy pumped into " defense " and now bailouts for people that got rich already and screwed the economy up.I do n't know the answer , but I am sure the path we are on is wrong .
That said , my student loans are about $ 70k right now , but they are privatized and pegged to the prime rate , which for the last few years has been far better than what the government is offering .
And for those who think you can write off interest -- it 's only to a certain point .
You ca n't write it ALL off if you paid $ 8000 + ( like I have for many years ) in interest only payments .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think most people accept the idea of getting an undergraduate degree.
For me as a person who can 'hire', I don't look at a degree as any sign of information, or intelligence -- I look at it as a sign of dedication and an ability to stick with something and finish it.
As I often tell people, what you learned in college is already 4 years out of date.
Granted, I hire for technical positions so it doesn't apply universally.Postgrad degrees honestly, have a diminishing return.
PHD students are diminishing, and gladly for the VERY smart and outlandish people (my brother is one) they get full rides to school because they spent so much time 'preparing' for grad school.
Other people don't.
So the 'next generation' of scholars is going to thin out, while people like my brother will be able to command a great salary because he's in an ever shrinking field of academia.
The problem multiplies, as fewer scholars = fewer teachers = more demand = higher university rates for those who CAN teach.To boot, we don't generally VALUE those PHDs or advanced degrees.
Why bother with a PHD, or MD, when you can make more money in less time getting a finance degree, and playing with other people's money, walking away with big bonuses and not worrying about long term affects because your reimbursement is right now.
The emphasis we as a society put on the 'finance' field is greatly alluring, even in a down economy because you have people making millions by moving numbers around in Excel (I worked Wall Street on a hedge fund as a BA, I did the manipulations).
Personally, I'd love to see more doctors (especially as our healthcare needs increase), more teachers, etc -- but our society doesn't seem to value those people and thus, we are left with the biggest part of our economy pumped into "defense" and now bailouts for people that got rich already and screwed the economy up.I don't know the answer, but I am sure the path we are on is wrong.
That said, my student loans are about $70k right now, but they are privatized and pegged to the prime rate, which for the last few years has been far better than what the government is offering.
And for those who think you can write off interest -- it's only to a certain point.
You can't write it ALL off if you paid $8000+ (like I have for many years) in interest only payments.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790099</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Stiletto</author>
	<datestamp>1255887720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Certainly it's not in the best interests of these institutions, nor in the interests of people who actually are committed to getting an education, for all students to get in free of tuition and admission selection requirements. As such a thing massively dilutes the quality of the institution, and the quality of the education that is available.</i></p><p>I have never encountered any evidence whatsoever that any objective measurement of education quality correlates with an institution's exclusivity.</p><p>Harvard only lets "certain" people in who deserve a great education, therefore, people think Harvard's great because they only let "certain" people in, therefore, Harvard only lets "certain" people in...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Certainly it 's not in the best interests of these institutions , nor in the interests of people who actually are committed to getting an education , for all students to get in free of tuition and admission selection requirements .
As such a thing massively dilutes the quality of the institution , and the quality of the education that is available.I have never encountered any evidence whatsoever that any objective measurement of education quality correlates with an institution 's exclusivity.Harvard only lets " certain " people in who deserve a great education , therefore , people think Harvard 's great because they only let " certain " people in , therefore , Harvard only lets " certain " people in.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Certainly it's not in the best interests of these institutions, nor in the interests of people who actually are committed to getting an education, for all students to get in free of tuition and admission selection requirements.
As such a thing massively dilutes the quality of the institution, and the quality of the education that is available.I have never encountered any evidence whatsoever that any objective measurement of education quality correlates with an institution's exclusivity.Harvard only lets "certain" people in who deserve a great education, therefore, people think Harvard's great because they only let "certain" people in, therefore, Harvard only lets "certain" people in...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789467</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29797569</id>
	<title>That hope chage thingy.</title>
	<author>tbgreve</author>
	<datestamp>1255980900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Some one has to pay for all this other crap coming down the pipe like Cap and Tax and heath-care and because everyone deserves to live for free and the Government will take care of you. HA HA!!! Socialism Rocks! Thanks all of you student loaners for paying for me to get frees cares and stuffs. Isn't this administration great? I don't needs to gets a degree because you will and I'll gets what you earn. That's fair. That's what wees voted fors.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Some one has to pay for all this other crap coming down the pipe like Cap and Tax and heath-care and because everyone deserves to live for free and the Government will take care of you .
HA HA ! ! !
Socialism Rocks !
Thanks all of you student loaners for paying for me to get frees cares and stuffs .
Is n't this administration great ?
I do n't needs to gets a degree because you will and I 'll gets what you earn .
That 's fair .
That 's what wees voted fors .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some one has to pay for all this other crap coming down the pipe like Cap and Tax and heath-care and because everyone deserves to live for free and the Government will take care of you.
HA HA!!!
Socialism Rocks!
Thanks all of you student loaners for paying for me to get frees cares and stuffs.
Isn't this administration great?
I don't needs to gets a degree because you will and I'll gets what you earn.
That's fair.
That's what wees voted fors.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790067</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Tibia1</author>
	<datestamp>1255887480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It would be amazing if education was free, but there would be more people enrolling, and therefore a need for more money run the university. Although, more professors would graduate and we would have more resources. The fact that education costs money motivates the students to complete their degree, although the degree itself should be that motivator.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It would be amazing if education was free , but there would be more people enrolling , and therefore a need for more money run the university .
Although , more professors would graduate and we would have more resources .
The fact that education costs money motivates the students to complete their degree , although the degree itself should be that motivator .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It would be amazing if education was free, but there would be more people enrolling, and therefore a need for more money run the university.
Although, more professors would graduate and we would have more resources.
The fact that education costs money motivates the students to complete their degree, although the degree itself should be that motivator.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789251</id>
	<title>comparison with mortgage rates</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255882080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>30-year fixed-rate mortgages are backed by the property itself as collateral, and usual require either a 20 percent down payment or private mortgage insurance to protect against market fluctuations.  (Of course, banks and mortgage companies have been known to market more "creative" products such as subprime mortgages, but presumably they have either learned their lesson or have been shut down by Federal regulators).</p><p>So that's comparing apples with oranges.  Part of the higher rate for the student loan goes into a pool against defaults, when the government has no collateral to seize.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>30-year fixed-rate mortgages are backed by the property itself as collateral , and usual require either a 20 percent down payment or private mortgage insurance to protect against market fluctuations .
( Of course , banks and mortgage companies have been known to market more " creative " products such as subprime mortgages , but presumably they have either learned their lesson or have been shut down by Federal regulators ) .So that 's comparing apples with oranges .
Part of the higher rate for the student loan goes into a pool against defaults , when the government has no collateral to seize .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>30-year fixed-rate mortgages are backed by the property itself as collateral, and usual require either a 20 percent down payment or private mortgage insurance to protect against market fluctuations.
(Of course, banks and mortgage companies have been known to market more "creative" products such as subprime mortgages, but presumably they have either learned their lesson or have been shut down by Federal regulators).So that's comparing apples with oranges.
Part of the higher rate for the student loan goes into a pool against defaults, when the government has no collateral to seize.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792093</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Stuckey</author>
	<datestamp>1255955520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><blockquote><div><p>"Makes one long for the good-old-days of 3\% student loans, doesn't it?"</p></div></blockquote><p>No it doesn't.</p><p>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.</p><p>But when a government just wants dumb consumers, then it's a very different matter.</p></div><p>So it should be easy to understand why such an education isn't provided in America, since America isn't a nation, but a state.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Makes one long for the good-old-days of 3 \ % student loans , does n't it ?
" No it does n't.A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain , because that 's part of believing that the nation 's most most important resource is its people.But when a government just wants dumb consumers , then it 's a very different matter.So it should be easy to understand why such an education is n't provided in America , since America is n't a nation , but a state .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Makes one long for the good-old-days of 3\% student loans, doesn't it?
"No it doesn't.A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.But when a government just wants dumb consumers, then it's a very different matter.So it should be easy to understand why such an education isn't provided in America, since America isn't a nation, but a state.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790297</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>pcolaman</author>
	<datestamp>1255889400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Only if you are a lazy fuck.  Grants, scholarships, and paid internships are available for people willing to search/work for them.  Also, I don't know if it's the case in all states, but in the state of Florida, any public university must accept a 2 year degree towards a 4 year degree program, so you can go to a junior/community college for your first two years, get an AA (or equivalent) and then apply to a 4 year state school and if you did good in your AA and possibly have financial issues in paying for a 4 year degree, you probably will be able to find enough grants and scholarships to get you over the hump.  People need to stop whining about how "the rich folk are holding them down" and hunker down and work hard to get to where you want to be.  I'm so sick of people who are hard on their luck just waiting for the government or charity handout and not willing to do something about it themselves.  And before anyone starts railing on me, I am not rich nor did I come from money.  Dad was enlisted in the Air Force and both my sister and myself have gone to college.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Only if you are a lazy fuck .
Grants , scholarships , and paid internships are available for people willing to search/work for them .
Also , I do n't know if it 's the case in all states , but in the state of Florida , any public university must accept a 2 year degree towards a 4 year degree program , so you can go to a junior/community college for your first two years , get an AA ( or equivalent ) and then apply to a 4 year state school and if you did good in your AA and possibly have financial issues in paying for a 4 year degree , you probably will be able to find enough grants and scholarships to get you over the hump .
People need to stop whining about how " the rich folk are holding them down " and hunker down and work hard to get to where you want to be .
I 'm so sick of people who are hard on their luck just waiting for the government or charity handout and not willing to do something about it themselves .
And before anyone starts railing on me , I am not rich nor did I come from money .
Dad was enlisted in the Air Force and both my sister and myself have gone to college .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Only if you are a lazy fuck.
Grants, scholarships, and paid internships are available for people willing to search/work for them.
Also, I don't know if it's the case in all states, but in the state of Florida, any public university must accept a 2 year degree towards a 4 year degree program, so you can go to a junior/community college for your first two years, get an AA (or equivalent) and then apply to a 4 year state school and if you did good in your AA and possibly have financial issues in paying for a 4 year degree, you probably will be able to find enough grants and scholarships to get you over the hump.
People need to stop whining about how "the rich folk are holding them down" and hunker down and work hard to get to where you want to be.
I'm so sick of people who are hard on their luck just waiting for the government or charity handout and not willing to do something about it themselves.
And before anyone starts railing on me, I am not rich nor did I come from money.
Dad was enlisted in the Air Force and both my sister and myself have gone to college.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789329</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790191</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>Technician</author>
	<datestamp>1255888500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Demand is high for education.  Being a full time student and working full time is difficult.  Being laid off and having no prospects gave many the incentive to change career paths.  Tuition is up due to the demand and limited number of seats.</p><p>As far as interest, some of these rates are being offset by inflation.  Now that we are printing money out of thin air to stimulate the economy, the dilution of dollars and your life savings is very real.  Prices will go up as long as there are lots more inflated dollars competing for the same resources.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Demand is high for education .
Being a full time student and working full time is difficult .
Being laid off and having no prospects gave many the incentive to change career paths .
Tuition is up due to the demand and limited number of seats.As far as interest , some of these rates are being offset by inflation .
Now that we are printing money out of thin air to stimulate the economy , the dilution of dollars and your life savings is very real .
Prices will go up as long as there are lots more inflated dollars competing for the same resources .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Demand is high for education.
Being a full time student and working full time is difficult.
Being laid off and having no prospects gave many the incentive to change career paths.
Tuition is up due to the demand and limited number of seats.As far as interest, some of these rates are being offset by inflation.
Now that we are printing money out of thin air to stimulate the economy, the dilution of dollars and your life savings is very real.
Prices will go up as long as there are lots more inflated dollars competing for the same resources.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789355</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794767</id>
	<title>Re:credit-unworthy or just greedy?</title>
	<author>Shea, Tim</author>
	<datestamp>1255969920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's not how it works. "Credit unworthy" people (who are not necessarily unworthy, but risky) are assumed to have an inherent risk in lending to them at all. This is regardless of rate. So if you have people who have a high risk of default regardless of the rate of the loan, then you have to charge a higher rate of interest in order to possibly earn some money.</p><p>Now if you have a pool of these risky loans out, the idea is to set the rate high enough that the lender still earns money even after the expected defaults, all the while not making the loan too burdensome that they increase the default rate and start losing money.</p><p>Do you really think that lenders haven't thought long and hard about this? If just charging higher rates caused more defaults and thus caused the lenders to lose money, they would never increase the rate. The lenders have done the math on how much they can lend out and at what rates for them to make money. It's up to the individual taking out the loan to decide whether they can shoulder that burden or not.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's not how it works .
" Credit unworthy " people ( who are not necessarily unworthy , but risky ) are assumed to have an inherent risk in lending to them at all .
This is regardless of rate .
So if you have people who have a high risk of default regardless of the rate of the loan , then you have to charge a higher rate of interest in order to possibly earn some money.Now if you have a pool of these risky loans out , the idea is to set the rate high enough that the lender still earns money even after the expected defaults , all the while not making the loan too burdensome that they increase the default rate and start losing money.Do you really think that lenders have n't thought long and hard about this ?
If just charging higher rates caused more defaults and thus caused the lenders to lose money , they would never increase the rate .
The lenders have done the math on how much they can lend out and at what rates for them to make money .
It 's up to the individual taking out the loan to decide whether they can shoulder that burden or not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's not how it works.
"Credit unworthy" people (who are not necessarily unworthy, but risky) are assumed to have an inherent risk in lending to them at all.
This is regardless of rate.
So if you have people who have a high risk of default regardless of the rate of the loan, then you have to charge a higher rate of interest in order to possibly earn some money.Now if you have a pool of these risky loans out, the idea is to set the rate high enough that the lender still earns money even after the expected defaults, all the while not making the loan too burdensome that they increase the default rate and start losing money.Do you really think that lenders haven't thought long and hard about this?
If just charging higher rates caused more defaults and thus caused the lenders to lose money, they would never increase the rate.
The lenders have done the math on how much they can lend out and at what rates for them to make money.
It's up to the individual taking out the loan to decide whether they can shoulder that burden or not.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789285</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789143</id>
	<title>All mine were cheap!</title>
	<author>dieman</author>
	<datestamp>1255881360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Direct loans were cheap, and the consolidation brought them down to ~5\% afair.  I know the new loans are not as cheap, but thats because some idiot decided having non-direct loans and promising a profit to everyone who serviced them.  Doh!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Direct loans were cheap , and the consolidation brought them down to ~ 5 \ % afair .
I know the new loans are not as cheap , but thats because some idiot decided having non-direct loans and promising a profit to everyone who serviced them .
Doh !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Direct loans were cheap, and the consolidation brought them down to ~5\% afair.
I know the new loans are not as cheap, but thats because some idiot decided having non-direct loans and promising a profit to everyone who serviced them.
Doh!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794113</id>
	<title>Re:I wonder why you're not considered credit-worth</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255966920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I had friends who tried to work while going to college. Most of them dropped out or failed so many of their courses that they ended up staying twice as long.  The lesson that I took from it is that it's easier to pay off some debt than it is to explain a crappy GPA at every interview.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I had friends who tried to work while going to college .
Most of them dropped out or failed so many of their courses that they ended up staying twice as long .
The lesson that I took from it is that it 's easier to pay off some debt than it is to explain a crappy GPA at every interview .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had friends who tried to work while going to college.
Most of them dropped out or failed so many of their courses that they ended up staying twice as long.
The lesson that I took from it is that it's easier to pay off some debt than it is to explain a crappy GPA at every interview.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795333</id>
	<title>Re:Agreed</title>
	<author>DavidTC</author>
	<datestamp>1255972320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>The loans are government backed, they should be no interest.</i> </p><p>
No. They are government backed, therefor, they should be <b>government issued</b>. Our idiotic system of privatizing profit and socializing risk needs to stop.</p><p>
It is one thing for a government to hire a company to build a building. The government does not have workers skilled at that, and does not want to hire them. Hell, I might even be okay with the government using private contractors as cooks for the military, although the military was always able to train cooks before.</p><p>
There is some reasonable argument made that the government should purchase skills it doesn't have but need temporarily, instead of creating a group to do it, hiring them, setting up standards, pointing them at the problem, and then letting them go when it's done. It does not need a plumber or locksmith or airplane pilot on staff.</p><p>
There is not, however, a reasonable argument for the government to hire <b>people to give out money</b>.</p><p>
The government is perfectly capable of handing money to students and colleges on their own. (It does that <b>anyway</b>, via direct loans and grants.)</p><p>
It is perfectly capable of collecting the money back from the students. (In fact, it appears that, every year, they mail a form to every person in the US that you're supposed to mail back with a government payment by April 15th.)</p><p>
Why the hell is <b>any</b> private business involved in this whatsoever? The government is <b>already</b> doing all this. Money in, money out, it's half the damn government's job.</p><p>
But no, we just had to have businesses involved, so that the rich can suck out some more money from a <b>government</b> service provided to random people.</p><p>
(Incidentally, such loans probably should have some sort of interest on them, if only to encourage people to actually pay them back. Perhaps the interest should be indexed to ability to pay...if you're out of work, you have a reduced payment schedule and no interest, whereas if you're making money, you pay maybe 5\% interest.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The loans are government backed , they should be no interest .
No. They are government backed , therefor , they should be government issued .
Our idiotic system of privatizing profit and socializing risk needs to stop .
It is one thing for a government to hire a company to build a building .
The government does not have workers skilled at that , and does not want to hire them .
Hell , I might even be okay with the government using private contractors as cooks for the military , although the military was always able to train cooks before .
There is some reasonable argument made that the government should purchase skills it does n't have but need temporarily , instead of creating a group to do it , hiring them , setting up standards , pointing them at the problem , and then letting them go when it 's done .
It does not need a plumber or locksmith or airplane pilot on staff .
There is not , however , a reasonable argument for the government to hire people to give out money .
The government is perfectly capable of handing money to students and colleges on their own .
( It does that anyway , via direct loans and grants .
) It is perfectly capable of collecting the money back from the students .
( In fact , it appears that , every year , they mail a form to every person in the US that you 're supposed to mail back with a government payment by April 15th .
) Why the hell is any private business involved in this whatsoever ?
The government is already doing all this .
Money in , money out , it 's half the damn government 's job .
But no , we just had to have businesses involved , so that the rich can suck out some more money from a government service provided to random people .
( Incidentally , such loans probably should have some sort of interest on them , if only to encourage people to actually pay them back .
Perhaps the interest should be indexed to ability to pay...if you 're out of work , you have a reduced payment schedule and no interest , whereas if you 're making money , you pay maybe 5 \ % interest .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext> The loans are government backed, they should be no interest.
No. They are government backed, therefor, they should be government issued.
Our idiotic system of privatizing profit and socializing risk needs to stop.
It is one thing for a government to hire a company to build a building.
The government does not have workers skilled at that, and does not want to hire them.
Hell, I might even be okay with the government using private contractors as cooks for the military, although the military was always able to train cooks before.
There is some reasonable argument made that the government should purchase skills it doesn't have but need temporarily, instead of creating a group to do it, hiring them, setting up standards, pointing them at the problem, and then letting them go when it's done.
It does not need a plumber or locksmith or airplane pilot on staff.
There is not, however, a reasonable argument for the government to hire people to give out money.
The government is perfectly capable of handing money to students and colleges on their own.
(It does that anyway, via direct loans and grants.
)
It is perfectly capable of collecting the money back from the students.
(In fact, it appears that, every year, they mail a form to every person in the US that you're supposed to mail back with a government payment by April 15th.
)
Why the hell is any private business involved in this whatsoever?
The government is already doing all this.
Money in, money out, it's half the damn government's job.
But no, we just had to have businesses involved, so that the rich can suck out some more money from a government service provided to random people.
(Incidentally, such loans probably should have some sort of interest on them, if only to encourage people to actually pay them back.
Perhaps the interest should be indexed to ability to pay...if you're out of work, you have a reduced payment schedule and no interest, whereas if you're making money, you pay maybe 5\% interest.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789357</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789357</id>
	<title>Agreed</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255882800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'll be graduating next summer with a Masters in IT Management. (Undergrad in Simulation Design Engineering)<br>75k or so in loans, and the year I went to college they jacked up the interest rate to 6.8\%.</p><p>And to everyone saying its unsecured debt needs to actually look into their facts. Student Loans can not be bankrupt on, if I don't pay, the gubmint will dock my pay. Which actually is a better deal that paying the loans, the max they can dock is 15\% per check, and my loans will be way more than that to actually pay.</p><p>The loans are government backed, they should be no interest.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll be graduating next summer with a Masters in IT Management .
( Undergrad in Simulation Design Engineering ) 75k or so in loans , and the year I went to college they jacked up the interest rate to 6.8 \ % .And to everyone saying its unsecured debt needs to actually look into their facts .
Student Loans can not be bankrupt on , if I do n't pay , the gubmint will dock my pay .
Which actually is a better deal that paying the loans , the max they can dock is 15 \ % per check , and my loans will be way more than that to actually pay.The loans are government backed , they should be no interest .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll be graduating next summer with a Masters in IT Management.
(Undergrad in Simulation Design Engineering)75k or so in loans, and the year I went to college they jacked up the interest rate to 6.8\%.And to everyone saying its unsecured debt needs to actually look into their facts.
Student Loans can not be bankrupt on, if I don't pay, the gubmint will dock my pay.
Which actually is a better deal that paying the loans, the max they can dock is 15\% per check, and my loans will be way more than that to actually pay.The loans are government backed, they should be no interest.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789449</id>
	<title>Maybe</title>
	<author>Stargoat</author>
	<datestamp>1255883400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Maybe if high school and college students spent as much time working on congressional campaigns as retirees, the laws would be a bit different.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe if high school and college students spent as much time working on congressional campaigns as retirees , the laws would be a bit different .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe if high school and college students spent as much time working on congressional campaigns as retirees, the laws would be a bit different.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793087</id>
	<title>Re:Agreed</title>
	<author>dvorakkeyboardrules</author>
	<datestamp>1255962540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I'll be graduating next summer with a Masters in IT Management. (Undergrad in Simulation Design Engineering)
75k or so in loans, and the year I went to college they jacked up the interest rate to 6.8\%.</p><p>And to everyone saying its unsecured debt needs to actually look into their facts. Student Loans can not be bankrupt on, if I don't pay, the gubmint will dock my pay. Which actually is a better deal that paying the loans, the max they can dock is 15\% per check, and my loans will be way more than that to actually pay.</p><p>The loans are government backed, they should be no interest.</p></div><p>You can do an income contingent repayment plan: <a href="http://www.direct.ed.gov/RepayCalc/dlindex2.html" title="ed.gov" rel="nofollow">http://www.direct.ed.gov/RepayCalc/dlindex2.html</a> [ed.gov]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll be graduating next summer with a Masters in IT Management .
( Undergrad in Simulation Design Engineering ) 75k or so in loans , and the year I went to college they jacked up the interest rate to 6.8 \ % .And to everyone saying its unsecured debt needs to actually look into their facts .
Student Loans can not be bankrupt on , if I do n't pay , the gubmint will dock my pay .
Which actually is a better deal that paying the loans , the max they can dock is 15 \ % per check , and my loans will be way more than that to actually pay.The loans are government backed , they should be no interest.You can do an income contingent repayment plan : http : //www.direct.ed.gov/RepayCalc/dlindex2.html [ ed.gov ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll be graduating next summer with a Masters in IT Management.
(Undergrad in Simulation Design Engineering)
75k or so in loans, and the year I went to college they jacked up the interest rate to 6.8\%.And to everyone saying its unsecured debt needs to actually look into their facts.
Student Loans can not be bankrupt on, if I don't pay, the gubmint will dock my pay.
Which actually is a better deal that paying the loans, the max they can dock is 15\% per check, and my loans will be way more than that to actually pay.The loans are government backed, they should be no interest.You can do an income contingent repayment plan: http://www.direct.ed.gov/RepayCalc/dlindex2.html [ed.gov]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789357</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789645</id>
	<title>Re:Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255884540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nothing stopped you from postponing grad school for a few years to pay down the balance.  Your loan papers clearly spelled out when and how interest would accumulate.</p><p>Lots of people do this.  Others take 6+ years to get their degree part time or in night school to minimize borrowing.</p><p>Why should you get special treatment?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nothing stopped you from postponing grad school for a few years to pay down the balance .
Your loan papers clearly spelled out when and how interest would accumulate.Lots of people do this .
Others take 6 + years to get their degree part time or in night school to minimize borrowing.Why should you get special treatment ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nothing stopped you from postponing grad school for a few years to pay down the balance.
Your loan papers clearly spelled out when and how interest would accumulate.Lots of people do this.
Others take 6+ years to get their degree part time or in night school to minimize borrowing.Why should you get special treatment?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789281</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789151</id>
	<title>It's cheap compared to India...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255881480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In India, student loans are 12\% compound interest; while the borrowing rate in good banks is as high as 7.5\% compunded quarterly.Money makes the world go round...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In India , student loans are 12 \ % compound interest ; while the borrowing rate in good banks is as high as 7.5 \ % compunded quarterly.Money makes the world go round.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In India, student loans are 12\% compound interest; while the borrowing rate in good banks is as high as 7.5\% compunded quarterly.Money makes the world go round...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790985</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255983120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Someone else doesn't need to be screwed for everyone to get healthcare. There are many benefits. If your Burger King employee gets the right medicine he might not cough up a virus into your whopper. If the taxi driver has the right prescription lenses he won't run you over while you are in the crosswalk. If a mentally ill man gets his medication he won't rape your daughter.</p><p>I don't know what kind of magical fairy land you live in, but around here everyone gets paid for their work. When a doctor gets paid by my taxes he in turn spends the money somewhere else (maybe at my place of business). The money all comes back eventually. It is a classic case of conservative trickle down economics at work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Someone else does n't need to be screwed for everyone to get healthcare .
There are many benefits .
If your Burger King employee gets the right medicine he might not cough up a virus into your whopper .
If the taxi driver has the right prescription lenses he wo n't run you over while you are in the crosswalk .
If a mentally ill man gets his medication he wo n't rape your daughter.I do n't know what kind of magical fairy land you live in , but around here everyone gets paid for their work .
When a doctor gets paid by my taxes he in turn spends the money somewhere else ( maybe at my place of business ) .
The money all comes back eventually .
It is a classic case of conservative trickle down economics at work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Someone else doesn't need to be screwed for everyone to get healthcare.
There are many benefits.
If your Burger King employee gets the right medicine he might not cough up a virus into your whopper.
If the taxi driver has the right prescription lenses he won't run you over while you are in the crosswalk.
If a mentally ill man gets his medication he won't rape your daughter.I don't know what kind of magical fairy land you live in, but around here everyone gets paid for their work.
When a doctor gets paid by my taxes he in turn spends the money somewhere else (maybe at my place of business).
The money all comes back eventually.
It is a classic case of conservative trickle down economics at work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790247</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789959</id>
	<title>Re:Agreed</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255886820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The loans are government backed, they should be no interest.</p></div><p>6 years of management education and no one mentioned opportunity cost?  That $75k could be earning at least 5\% servicing secured loans.  Meanwhile inflation is eroding the value of the outstanding principle.  Risk isn't the only factor involved in computing interest rates.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Which actually is a better deal</p></div><p>Your name will be mud among creditors.  The sort of employers you're assuming will employ you are going to care about that as well.  Knocking candidates off the list due to bad credit history is SOP nowadays.</p><p>The above finance insights brought to you by the Detroit Public School system.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The loans are government backed , they should be no interest.6 years of management education and no one mentioned opportunity cost ?
That $ 75k could be earning at least 5 \ % servicing secured loans .
Meanwhile inflation is eroding the value of the outstanding principle .
Risk is n't the only factor involved in computing interest rates.Which actually is a better dealYour name will be mud among creditors .
The sort of employers you 're assuming will employ you are going to care about that as well .
Knocking candidates off the list due to bad credit history is SOP nowadays.The above finance insights brought to you by the Detroit Public School system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The loans are government backed, they should be no interest.6 years of management education and no one mentioned opportunity cost?
That $75k could be earning at least 5\% servicing secured loans.
Meanwhile inflation is eroding the value of the outstanding principle.
Risk isn't the only factor involved in computing interest rates.Which actually is a better dealYour name will be mud among creditors.
The sort of employers you're assuming will employ you are going to care about that as well.
Knocking candidates off the list due to bad credit history is SOP nowadays.The above finance insights brought to you by the Detroit Public School system.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789357</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793497</id>
	<title>Re:Pissed at the bail-outs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255964400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I have a better idea. Let's take just 1\% of that trillion dollars per year, and use it to feed EVERY SINGLE !@## STARVING KID THE WORLD OVER. Yes, that's all it would take. A Billion dollars per year could by a handful of rice, corn, or wheat to put into the hands of every single starving kid in the world. <b>Can you imagine just how much goodwill this would cause?</b> We'd be hailed the world over as harbingers of peace.</p></div><p>I agree with you, but it's not that simple, is it?  Take Mogadishu for example.  Starvation of a populace in certain parts of the world is wielded as a weapon by regional warlords.  Buying the rice, corn and wheat is the easy part -- actually getting it into the mouths of those who need it is another problem.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a better idea .
Let 's take just 1 \ % of that trillion dollars per year , and use it to feed EVERY SINGLE !
@ # # STARVING KID THE WORLD OVER .
Yes , that 's all it would take .
A Billion dollars per year could by a handful of rice , corn , or wheat to put into the hands of every single starving kid in the world .
Can you imagine just how much goodwill this would cause ?
We 'd be hailed the world over as harbingers of peace.I agree with you , but it 's not that simple , is it ?
Take Mogadishu for example .
Starvation of a populace in certain parts of the world is wielded as a weapon by regional warlords .
Buying the rice , corn and wheat is the easy part -- actually getting it into the mouths of those who need it is another problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a better idea.
Let's take just 1\% of that trillion dollars per year, and use it to feed EVERY SINGLE !
@## STARVING KID THE WORLD OVER.
Yes, that's all it would take.
A Billion dollars per year could by a handful of rice, corn, or wheat to put into the hands of every single starving kid in the world.
Can you imagine just how much goodwill this would cause?
We'd be hailed the world over as harbingers of peace.I agree with you, but it's not that simple, is it?
Take Mogadishu for example.
Starvation of a populace in certain parts of the world is wielded as a weapon by regional warlords.
Buying the rice, corn and wheat is the easy part -- actually getting it into the mouths of those who need it is another problem.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789863</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29797591</id>
	<title>Re:Nothing like starting life $100K in the hole</title>
	<author>jafac</author>
	<datestamp>1255980960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>On a higher level this kills entrepreneurial opportunities at the time in life you have the most desire, creativity and energy to launch a new business. Many of you are stuck in low-paying, dead end jobs because of student loans...one of the reasons some companies like to hire right out of college</i></p><p>Those companies happen to have a lot of influence on this policy, as it turns out.  This situation is highly profitable for them.  They can pay comparative peanuts to college grads, and get pretty much the same benefit, without having to COMPETE with those kids' new businesses for consumer dollars.</p><p>This is still one more way in which the competitive bar is raised impossibly high in this country, and the playing field is tilted sharply towards the already-established BIG ("too big to fail") players.  It is also the reason for the ever-increasing income inequality in this country.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On a higher level this kills entrepreneurial opportunities at the time in life you have the most desire , creativity and energy to launch a new business .
Many of you are stuck in low-paying , dead end jobs because of student loans...one of the reasons some companies like to hire right out of collegeThose companies happen to have a lot of influence on this policy , as it turns out .
This situation is highly profitable for them .
They can pay comparative peanuts to college grads , and get pretty much the same benefit , without having to COMPETE with those kids ' new businesses for consumer dollars.This is still one more way in which the competitive bar is raised impossibly high in this country , and the playing field is tilted sharply towards the already-established BIG ( " too big to fail " ) players .
It is also the reason for the ever-increasing income inequality in this country .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On a higher level this kills entrepreneurial opportunities at the time in life you have the most desire, creativity and energy to launch a new business.
Many of you are stuck in low-paying, dead end jobs because of student loans...one of the reasons some companies like to hire right out of collegeThose companies happen to have a lot of influence on this policy, as it turns out.
This situation is highly profitable for them.
They can pay comparative peanuts to college grads, and get pretty much the same benefit, without having to COMPETE with those kids' new businesses for consumer dollars.This is still one more way in which the competitive bar is raised impossibly high in this country, and the playing field is tilted sharply towards the already-established BIG ("too big to fail") players.
It is also the reason for the ever-increasing income inequality in this country.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789425</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790017</id>
	<title>Re:Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255887180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Somebody call a WHAAAAAMBULANCE!</p><p>Dammn filters. I *was* yelling.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Somebody call a WHAAAAAMBULANCE ! Dammn filters .
I * was * yelling .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Somebody call a WHAAAAAMBULANCE!Dammn filters.
I *was* yelling.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789281</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789605</id>
	<title>Loans are an option not a requirement.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255884300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I worked my way through college.</p><p>It sucked.  I didn't get to go ivy league (not a big problem since only a 1270 sat, 3.2gpa, and activities were computer club and D&amp;D club).</p><p>Mainly, I didn't get to take a 4 to 5 year vacation.  I studied 20 hours on top of 12 hours of classes on top of 40 to 55 hours a week of work.</p><p>But I graduated with no debt.  It was my choice.</p><p>Students have the choice of going to public schools, or cheaper schools over seas, or on-line schools.</p><p>One of the reasons colleges have gotten so expensive is that children are willing to take on $200,000 debt to get a degree.</p><p>Look- if the professors were not making mid 100k incomes (yea, I know adjunct professors are poorly paid), if the universities were not funding research on the student's backs, if the university presidents were not making $350k!!! and if the universities JUST TAUGHT THE MATERIAL like they used to back in the 50's, then school wouldn't be so expensive.</p><p>Health care is super expensive for the same reason.  People have shown that they *will* pay anything for it, so the providers have jacked up the bill.</p><p>You can get a good solid degree from a public university and graduate with little or no debt.</p><p>You can't get an idiot degree of course.</p><p>Given the work climate (that any INDIAN or CHINESE national can get a similar quality degree and take your job for $16,000 to $25,000 working in their companies for our corporations), you are an idiot to get a degree for something with that kind of exposure.  At least get something that requires you be physically present, or that has national security implications.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I worked my way through college.It sucked .
I did n't get to go ivy league ( not a big problem since only a 1270 sat , 3.2gpa , and activities were computer club and D&amp;D club ) .Mainly , I did n't get to take a 4 to 5 year vacation .
I studied 20 hours on top of 12 hours of classes on top of 40 to 55 hours a week of work.But I graduated with no debt .
It was my choice.Students have the choice of going to public schools , or cheaper schools over seas , or on-line schools.One of the reasons colleges have gotten so expensive is that children are willing to take on $ 200,000 debt to get a degree.Look- if the professors were not making mid 100k incomes ( yea , I know adjunct professors are poorly paid ) , if the universities were not funding research on the student 's backs , if the university presidents were not making $ 350k ! ! !
and if the universities JUST TAUGHT THE MATERIAL like they used to back in the 50 's , then school would n't be so expensive.Health care is super expensive for the same reason .
People have shown that they * will * pay anything for it , so the providers have jacked up the bill.You can get a good solid degree from a public university and graduate with little or no debt.You ca n't get an idiot degree of course.Given the work climate ( that any INDIAN or CHINESE national can get a similar quality degree and take your job for $ 16,000 to $ 25,000 working in their companies for our corporations ) , you are an idiot to get a degree for something with that kind of exposure .
At least get something that requires you be physically present , or that has national security implications .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I worked my way through college.It sucked.
I didn't get to go ivy league (not a big problem since only a 1270 sat, 3.2gpa, and activities were computer club and D&amp;D club).Mainly, I didn't get to take a 4 to 5 year vacation.
I studied 20 hours on top of 12 hours of classes on top of 40 to 55 hours a week of work.But I graduated with no debt.
It was my choice.Students have the choice of going to public schools, or cheaper schools over seas, or on-line schools.One of the reasons colleges have gotten so expensive is that children are willing to take on $200,000 debt to get a degree.Look- if the professors were not making mid 100k incomes (yea, I know adjunct professors are poorly paid), if the universities were not funding research on the student's backs, if the university presidents were not making $350k!!!
and if the universities JUST TAUGHT THE MATERIAL like they used to back in the 50's, then school wouldn't be so expensive.Health care is super expensive for the same reason.
People have shown that they *will* pay anything for it, so the providers have jacked up the bill.You can get a good solid degree from a public university and graduate with little or no debt.You can't get an idiot degree of course.Given the work climate (that any INDIAN or CHINESE national can get a similar quality degree and take your job for $16,000 to $25,000 working in their companies for our corporations), you are an idiot to get a degree for something with that kind of exposure.
At least get something that requires you be physically present, or that has national security implications.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793563</id>
	<title>You are the new slaves</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255964760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Because you students are who is needed to pay for the other bailouts. Now go procreate and create us some more slaves.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because you students are who is needed to pay for the other bailouts .
Now go procreate and create us some more slaves .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because you students are who is needed to pay for the other bailouts.
Now go procreate and create us some more slaves.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790183</id>
	<title>Re:It's cheap compared to India...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255888440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your inflation in the long run (10+ years) is 8\%.  I think the US is 3\%.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your inflation in the long run ( 10 + years ) is 8 \ % .
I think the US is 3 \ % .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your inflation in the long run (10+ years) is 8\%.
I think the US is 3\%.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789151</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29797775</id>
	<title>Re:Waaa, Waaa, frikin' WAAAAA!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255981800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Maybe I'm just an insensitive clod...</p></div><p>Yes.  Yes, you are.</p><p>I'm in a similar situation: unemployed with student debt.  A McDonald's job wouldn't even come close to scratching my bills.  Fresh out of school I had a job that paid double my state's minimum wage and I while I could pay for my rent and student loans, I still had to get my parents' help for the rest: internet, car insurance, food, commute expenses, etc.</p><p>And believe me, with that job, I was the envy of my class.</p><p>I don't know man, but I don't think I'd ever have it in me to put someone down for pursuing their passion, even including art history majors.  If your idea of idiocy is a person pursuing what enraptures and engages them in an academic context, then well yeah, you're an insensitive clod and a bit of an asshole.</p><p>Not everybody acquires a skill for the sake of earning lots of money.  Some people have passion and some even put that passion first.  I think it's more than a crying shame that our current system does not and will not support this.  People doing what they love benefits everyone and the way things are, people are by and large barred from doing that.</p><p>My student loan payments kicked in six months after I graduated.  I was supposed to have a lucrative job and financial stability six months after I graduated?  Please.  University should be free in the same way the lower grades are free in the same way the police and fire departments are free in the same way that health care should be free.</p><p>Because it's not about the individual.  As long as you take the view supporting the individual, the individual gets trampled and then assholes like you say, "See, told you so!"  We need to all start looking at our problems and our lives as being connected.  Is it good for everybody that passionate people are discouraged from pursuing their passions in favor of rotting in some cubicle performing the same thoughtless rote menial tasks over and over until they die?</p><p>I don't think so.  That's why I chose an education that gave me a skill that's not particularly marketable.  Because I love exercising that skill.  Not because it brings me rewards, but because I love the very doing.  I don't ask for much.  I rent a modest studio apartment, I don't buy fancy clothes, I don't spend money on frivolous things like car upgrades or expensive toys, but these student loans still kick my ass.</p><p>20 years of debt for 2&#189; years of school.  Makes sense to me.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe I 'm just an insensitive clod...Yes .
Yes , you are.I 'm in a similar situation : unemployed with student debt .
A McDonald 's job would n't even come close to scratching my bills .
Fresh out of school I had a job that paid double my state 's minimum wage and I while I could pay for my rent and student loans , I still had to get my parents ' help for the rest : internet , car insurance , food , commute expenses , etc.And believe me , with that job , I was the envy of my class.I do n't know man , but I do n't think I 'd ever have it in me to put someone down for pursuing their passion , even including art history majors .
If your idea of idiocy is a person pursuing what enraptures and engages them in an academic context , then well yeah , you 're an insensitive clod and a bit of an asshole.Not everybody acquires a skill for the sake of earning lots of money .
Some people have passion and some even put that passion first .
I think it 's more than a crying shame that our current system does not and will not support this .
People doing what they love benefits everyone and the way things are , people are by and large barred from doing that.My student loan payments kicked in six months after I graduated .
I was supposed to have a lucrative job and financial stability six months after I graduated ?
Please. University should be free in the same way the lower grades are free in the same way the police and fire departments are free in the same way that health care should be free.Because it 's not about the individual .
As long as you take the view supporting the individual , the individual gets trampled and then assholes like you say , " See , told you so !
" We need to all start looking at our problems and our lives as being connected .
Is it good for everybody that passionate people are discouraged from pursuing their passions in favor of rotting in some cubicle performing the same thoughtless rote menial tasks over and over until they die ? I do n't think so .
That 's why I chose an education that gave me a skill that 's not particularly marketable .
Because I love exercising that skill .
Not because it brings me rewards , but because I love the very doing .
I do n't ask for much .
I rent a modest studio apartment , I do n't buy fancy clothes , I do n't spend money on frivolous things like car upgrades or expensive toys , but these student loans still kick my ass.20 years of debt for 2   years of school .
Makes sense to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe I'm just an insensitive clod...Yes.
Yes, you are.I'm in a similar situation: unemployed with student debt.
A McDonald's job wouldn't even come close to scratching my bills.
Fresh out of school I had a job that paid double my state's minimum wage and I while I could pay for my rent and student loans, I still had to get my parents' help for the rest: internet, car insurance, food, commute expenses, etc.And believe me, with that job, I was the envy of my class.I don't know man, but I don't think I'd ever have it in me to put someone down for pursuing their passion, even including art history majors.
If your idea of idiocy is a person pursuing what enraptures and engages them in an academic context, then well yeah, you're an insensitive clod and a bit of an asshole.Not everybody acquires a skill for the sake of earning lots of money.
Some people have passion and some even put that passion first.
I think it's more than a crying shame that our current system does not and will not support this.
People doing what they love benefits everyone and the way things are, people are by and large barred from doing that.My student loan payments kicked in six months after I graduated.
I was supposed to have a lucrative job and financial stability six months after I graduated?
Please.  University should be free in the same way the lower grades are free in the same way the police and fire departments are free in the same way that health care should be free.Because it's not about the individual.
As long as you take the view supporting the individual, the individual gets trampled and then assholes like you say, "See, told you so!
"  We need to all start looking at our problems and our lives as being connected.
Is it good for everybody that passionate people are discouraged from pursuing their passions in favor of rotting in some cubicle performing the same thoughtless rote menial tasks over and over until they die?I don't think so.
That's why I chose an education that gave me a skill that's not particularly marketable.
Because I love exercising that skill.
Not because it brings me rewards, but because I love the very doing.
I don't ask for much.
I rent a modest studio apartment, I don't buy fancy clothes, I don't spend money on frivolous things like car upgrades or expensive toys, but these student loans still kick my ass.20 years of debt for 2½ years of school.
Makes sense to me.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792859</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790911</id>
	<title>Re:The worthlessness of "education"</title>
	<author>nitroamos</author>
	<datestamp>1255895760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Knowledge is free, education is not. Knowledge is needed at most jobs, education in all honesty is not. I think its time for society to realize this.</p></div><p>I totally agree. I've heard lots of people tell me, and I'm becoming convinced, that a traditional college education is simply not the right choice for many people. Although US high schools suck, if they didn't find the initiative to learn something there, why should the public front the money for a few more years of irresponsibility? Chances are pretty good that they'll go just because they can get a loan and all their friends are going, and thus merely delay the inevitability of getting a job they don't need a college degree for.</p><p>An interesting anecdote. When I was taking the senior year undergrad class for my major, the professor gave hard tests. After the second test, he basically told us that those who got below a certain score were probably in the wrong major. Students complained and the professor had to apologize later, but I think he had a good point... the department had financial incentives to get as many butts in seats as they could, which in the long run probably hurt some of them.</p><p>On the other hand, if you're studying something that's actually valuable for the economy and you get good grades, I've found that funds tend to become available...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Knowledge is free , education is not .
Knowledge is needed at most jobs , education in all honesty is not .
I think its time for society to realize this.I totally agree .
I 've heard lots of people tell me , and I 'm becoming convinced , that a traditional college education is simply not the right choice for many people .
Although US high schools suck , if they did n't find the initiative to learn something there , why should the public front the money for a few more years of irresponsibility ?
Chances are pretty good that they 'll go just because they can get a loan and all their friends are going , and thus merely delay the inevitability of getting a job they do n't need a college degree for.An interesting anecdote .
When I was taking the senior year undergrad class for my major , the professor gave hard tests .
After the second test , he basically told us that those who got below a certain score were probably in the wrong major .
Students complained and the professor had to apologize later , but I think he had a good point... the department had financial incentives to get as many butts in seats as they could , which in the long run probably hurt some of them.On the other hand , if you 're studying something that 's actually valuable for the economy and you get good grades , I 've found that funds tend to become available.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Knowledge is free, education is not.
Knowledge is needed at most jobs, education in all honesty is not.
I think its time for society to realize this.I totally agree.
I've heard lots of people tell me, and I'm becoming convinced, that a traditional college education is simply not the right choice for many people.
Although US high schools suck, if they didn't find the initiative to learn something there, why should the public front the money for a few more years of irresponsibility?
Chances are pretty good that they'll go just because they can get a loan and all their friends are going, and thus merely delay the inevitability of getting a job they don't need a college degree for.An interesting anecdote.
When I was taking the senior year undergrad class for my major, the professor gave hard tests.
After the second test, he basically told us that those who got below a certain score were probably in the wrong major.
Students complained and the professor had to apologize later, but I think he had a good point... the department had financial incentives to get as many butts in seats as they could, which in the long run probably hurt some of them.On the other hand, if you're studying something that's actually valuable for the economy and you get good grades, I've found that funds tend to become available...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789313</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</id>
	<title>Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255882920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>"Makes one long for the good-old-days of 3\% student loans, doesn't it?"</p></div></blockquote><p>No it doesn't.</p><p>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.</p><p>But when a government just wants dumb consumers, then it's a very different matter.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Makes one long for the good-old-days of 3 \ % student loans , does n't it ?
" No it does n't.A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain , because that 's part of believing that the nation 's most most important resource is its people.But when a government just wants dumb consumers , then it 's a very different matter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Makes one long for the good-old-days of 3\% student loans, doesn't it?
"No it doesn't.A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.But when a government just wants dumb consumers, then it's a very different matter.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790141</id>
	<title>Re:credit-unworthy or just greedy?</title>
	<author>demachina</author>
	<datestamp>1255888140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>High interest rates used to be a crime called "usery" and it dates back a few thousand years.  It used to be a crime to charge interest at all.  The U.S. used to have state statutes on the maximum interest you could charge before it became usery.  A common punishment for usery is the loan was forgiven or the lender couldn't sue to collect.  In 1980 when the U.S. was in a nasty inflationary spiral all usery laws were overturned with the <a href="http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/ContrarianChronicles/blame-reagan-for-our-financial-mess.aspx" title="msn.com">Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act</a> [msn.com].  It was actually passed by Dems just before Reagan was elected though it was a perfect fit for the Republicans.  Much of our financial cataclysm of late is actually thanks to this act which allowed userous loans.  We've had payday loans, 20\% credit card rates and every manner of acute usery since.  You could argue its buyer beware but people are often desperate or foolish and take out loans they can never repay and it just makes their problems worse.  I personally never borrow money... EVER. I wish it was a lot harder to get loans but banks make a lot of money on teaser rates, balloons, etc and they pretty much own Congress so we have turned in to a nation of debtors and its a key reason our economy is imploding, while the Chinese, who are chronic savers are doing well.  You ever wonder why there are payday loans stores on every street corner now, its because usery is legal and very profitable in the U.S.</p><p>The worst thing about student loans has been the last eight years when the Republicans decided it was a good idea to put private corporations in charge of them.  They provide none of the capital, they assume none of the risk, tax payers provide the money and take the risk, they just take a hefty cut and all they do is marketing and hand out cash.  It was pretty much a criminal enterprise like most things in the U.S. and all it did was take money from students and taxpayers to line the pockets of politically connected corporations.  I think the Dems have been trying to return to a sane system where the government just does the loans and gets rid of the middle man, though it will end a no risk gravy train for a lot of powerful people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>High interest rates used to be a crime called " usery " and it dates back a few thousand years .
It used to be a crime to charge interest at all .
The U.S. used to have state statutes on the maximum interest you could charge before it became usery .
A common punishment for usery is the loan was forgiven or the lender could n't sue to collect .
In 1980 when the U.S. was in a nasty inflationary spiral all usery laws were overturned with the Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act [ msn.com ] .
It was actually passed by Dems just before Reagan was elected though it was a perfect fit for the Republicans .
Much of our financial cataclysm of late is actually thanks to this act which allowed userous loans .
We 've had payday loans , 20 \ % credit card rates and every manner of acute usery since .
You could argue its buyer beware but people are often desperate or foolish and take out loans they can never repay and it just makes their problems worse .
I personally never borrow money... EVER. I wish it was a lot harder to get loans but banks make a lot of money on teaser rates , balloons , etc and they pretty much own Congress so we have turned in to a nation of debtors and its a key reason our economy is imploding , while the Chinese , who are chronic savers are doing well .
You ever wonder why there are payday loans stores on every street corner now , its because usery is legal and very profitable in the U.S.The worst thing about student loans has been the last eight years when the Republicans decided it was a good idea to put private corporations in charge of them .
They provide none of the capital , they assume none of the risk , tax payers provide the money and take the risk , they just take a hefty cut and all they do is marketing and hand out cash .
It was pretty much a criminal enterprise like most things in the U.S. and all it did was take money from students and taxpayers to line the pockets of politically connected corporations .
I think the Dems have been trying to return to a sane system where the government just does the loans and gets rid of the middle man , though it will end a no risk gravy train for a lot of powerful people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>High interest rates used to be a crime called "usery" and it dates back a few thousand years.
It used to be a crime to charge interest at all.
The U.S. used to have state statutes on the maximum interest you could charge before it became usery.
A common punishment for usery is the loan was forgiven or the lender couldn't sue to collect.
In 1980 when the U.S. was in a nasty inflationary spiral all usery laws were overturned with the Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act [msn.com].
It was actually passed by Dems just before Reagan was elected though it was a perfect fit for the Republicans.
Much of our financial cataclysm of late is actually thanks to this act which allowed userous loans.
We've had payday loans, 20\% credit card rates and every manner of acute usery since.
You could argue its buyer beware but people are often desperate or foolish and take out loans they can never repay and it just makes their problems worse.
I personally never borrow money... EVER. I wish it was a lot harder to get loans but banks make a lot of money on teaser rates, balloons, etc and they pretty much own Congress so we have turned in to a nation of debtors and its a key reason our economy is imploding, while the Chinese, who are chronic savers are doing well.
You ever wonder why there are payday loans stores on every street corner now, its because usery is legal and very profitable in the U.S.The worst thing about student loans has been the last eight years when the Republicans decided it was a good idea to put private corporations in charge of them.
They provide none of the capital, they assume none of the risk, tax payers provide the money and take the risk, they just take a hefty cut and all they do is marketing and hand out cash.
It was pretty much a criminal enterprise like most things in the U.S. and all it did was take money from students and taxpayers to line the pockets of politically connected corporations.
I think the Dems have been trying to return to a sane system where the government just does the loans and gets rid of the middle man, though it will end a no risk gravy train for a lot of powerful people.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789285</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795369</id>
	<title>Re:Nothing like starting life $100K in the hole</title>
	<author>CodeBuster</author>
	<datestamp>1255972440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>So attend community college instead of Harvard or Yale. Seriously, there are many students out there who are overpaying <b>massively</b> for the education that they are receiving. If you want to attend an expensive school then pay up front or take out the loans and pay later but do not expect those of us who made hard choices about which school to attend to pay for your Harvard education or your Yale degree with our tax dollars.</htmltext>
<tokenext>So attend community college instead of Harvard or Yale .
Seriously , there are many students out there who are overpaying massively for the education that they are receiving .
If you want to attend an expensive school then pay up front or take out the loans and pay later but do not expect those of us who made hard choices about which school to attend to pay for your Harvard education or your Yale degree with our tax dollars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So attend community college instead of Harvard or Yale.
Seriously, there are many students out there who are overpaying massively for the education that they are receiving.
If you want to attend an expensive school then pay up front or take out the loans and pay later but do not expect those of us who made hard choices about which school to attend to pay for your Harvard education or your Yale degree with our tax dollars.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789425</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789893</id>
	<title>Re:The worthlessness of "education"</title>
	<author>the\_humeister</author>
	<datestamp>1255886340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I disagree. There are a plethora of jobs that require education and not just knowledge. Try being a surgeon or a lawyer without an education. It's one thing to know what they do and how they do it. It's another thing to actually be able to do what they do.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I disagree .
There are a plethora of jobs that require education and not just knowledge .
Try being a surgeon or a lawyer without an education .
It 's one thing to know what they do and how they do it .
It 's another thing to actually be able to do what they do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I disagree.
There are a plethora of jobs that require education and not just knowledge.
Try being a surgeon or a lawyer without an education.
It's one thing to know what they do and how they do it.
It's another thing to actually be able to do what they do.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789313</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793945</id>
	<title>Re:Agreed</title>
	<author>foniksonik</author>
	<datestamp>1255966320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Continuously be on the look out for a low interest rate consolidation... they are out there, especially if you build your credit rating and keep a job for &gt; 4 years before doing so. What was a risky loan will suddenly become a much less risky loan and you'll get offers in the 2\%-4\% range.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Continuously be on the look out for a low interest rate consolidation... they are out there , especially if you build your credit rating and keep a job for &gt; 4 years before doing so .
What was a risky loan will suddenly become a much less risky loan and you 'll get offers in the 2 \ % -4 \ % range .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Continuously be on the look out for a low interest rate consolidation... they are out there, especially if you build your credit rating and keep a job for &gt; 4 years before doing so.
What was a risky loan will suddenly become a much less risky loan and you'll get offers in the 2\%-4\% range.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789357</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789845</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>GodBlessTexas</author>
	<datestamp>1255886100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I sit on an advisory board at the local community college, and as such I get the chance to rub elbows with others in academia, including faculty and administration at prestigious schools in the Ivy League.  It's interesting that when you talk to these people, they make no bones about justifying why they charge so much for an education.  As someone from Brown put it bluntly, "If we didn't charge so much, people would not think it was worth anything."  Some might argue that the easy access of federal funds has done a lot to exacerbate the problem of rising tuition costs.  Just as government contractors and consultants view federal government funds as a never-ending supply of money, colleges view it in a very similar way.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I sit on an advisory board at the local community college , and as such I get the chance to rub elbows with others in academia , including faculty and administration at prestigious schools in the Ivy League .
It 's interesting that when you talk to these people , they make no bones about justifying why they charge so much for an education .
As someone from Brown put it bluntly , " If we did n't charge so much , people would not think it was worth anything .
" Some might argue that the easy access of federal funds has done a lot to exacerbate the problem of rising tuition costs .
Just as government contractors and consultants view federal government funds as a never-ending supply of money , colleges view it in a very similar way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I sit on an advisory board at the local community college, and as such I get the chance to rub elbows with others in academia, including faculty and administration at prestigious schools in the Ivy League.
It's interesting that when you talk to these people, they make no bones about justifying why they charge so much for an education.
As someone from Brown put it bluntly, "If we didn't charge so much, people would not think it was worth anything.
"  Some might argue that the easy access of federal funds has done a lot to exacerbate the problem of rising tuition costs.
Just as government contractors and consultants view federal government funds as a never-ending supply of money, colleges view it in a very similar way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789155</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791881</id>
	<title>In Finland education is free</title>
	<author>blind biker</author>
	<datestamp>1255953180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>and so is in most of the EU. In spite of this, the scientific output of Finnish universities is comparable to that of the US institutions. I don't deny that the US has top-notch universities. But they are not significantly better, per capita, than Finland's.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and so is in most of the EU .
In spite of this , the scientific output of Finnish universities is comparable to that of the US institutions .
I do n't deny that the US has top-notch universities .
But they are not significantly better , per capita , than Finland 's .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and so is in most of the EU.
In spite of this, the scientific output of Finnish universities is comparable to that of the US institutions.
I don't deny that the US has top-notch universities.
But they are not significantly better, per capita, than Finland's.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792575</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255959540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>in france students complain about 150$ or less a year university, well dont remember numbers exactly but for sure less then 1000$ a year..what US students pay, make me feel they become slaves since birth.. unless they come from a rich family. But to come form a rich family, doesn't make you more clever, hence it is definitly unfair.. good way to make most people have a sword above their head, called loan.. you get used to it since birth.. and you end up thinking to take loan is no worries.. then you end up with subprime.. in the meantime (big) banks taking all benefits (they can't go bankrupt)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>in france students complain about 150 $ or less a year university , well dont remember numbers exactly but for sure less then 1000 $ a year..what US students pay , make me feel they become slaves since birth.. unless they come from a rich family .
But to come form a rich family , does n't make you more clever , hence it is definitly unfair.. good way to make most people have a sword above their head , called loan.. you get used to it since birth.. and you end up thinking to take loan is no worries.. then you end up with subprime.. in the meantime ( big ) banks taking all benefits ( they ca n't go bankrupt )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>in france students complain about 150$ or less a year university, well dont remember numbers exactly but for sure less then 1000$ a year..what US students pay, make me feel they become slaves since birth.. unless they come from a rich family.
But to come form a rich family, doesn't make you more clever, hence it is definitly unfair.. good way to make most people have a sword above their head, called loan.. you get used to it since birth.. and you end up thinking to take loan is no worries.. then you end up with subprime.. in the meantime (big) banks taking all benefits (they can't go bankrupt)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795549</id>
	<title>Cry me a river!</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1255973100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Mortages are backed by tangible collateral. Students loans are not. So OF COURSE the interest rates on student loans are higher! In free market, they would essential be priced the same as credit card debt. Would it be in the best interests of our society to subsidize student loans? Yes it would, but that doesn't mean that you as a student are entitled to anything. Most state universities are already heavily subsidized, so if you didn't want to run up $84,000 in student loans, perhaps you shouldn't have gone to a private university. Finally, hey, it's your own fault you didn't choose wealthier parents! (My coworker from India tells me that nobody owes student loans there; the schools are cheaper, and financing their children's education is the top priority of parents.)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Mortages are backed by tangible collateral .
Students loans are not .
So OF COURSE the interest rates on student loans are higher !
In free market , they would essential be priced the same as credit card debt .
Would it be in the best interests of our society to subsidize student loans ?
Yes it would , but that does n't mean that you as a student are entitled to anything .
Most state universities are already heavily subsidized , so if you did n't want to run up $ 84,000 in student loans , perhaps you should n't have gone to a private university .
Finally , hey , it 's your own fault you did n't choose wealthier parents !
( My coworker from India tells me that nobody owes student loans there ; the schools are cheaper , and financing their children 's education is the top priority of parents .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mortages are backed by tangible collateral.
Students loans are not.
So OF COURSE the interest rates on student loans are higher!
In free market, they would essential be priced the same as credit card debt.
Would it be in the best interests of our society to subsidize student loans?
Yes it would, but that doesn't mean that you as a student are entitled to anything.
Most state universities are already heavily subsidized, so if you didn't want to run up $84,000 in student loans, perhaps you shouldn't have gone to a private university.
Finally, hey, it's your own fault you didn't choose wealthier parents!
(My coworker from India tells me that nobody owes student loans there; the schools are cheaper, and financing their children's education is the top priority of parents.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789879</id>
	<title>Lemme get this straight...</title>
	<author>definate</author>
	<datestamp>1255886280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You want an unsecured loan to have the same interest rate as a secured asset?</p><p>You want the country to take on more loans which might be riskier than they are priced at.</p><p>I know it's not as bad as housing loans being underwritten by the government, but it's similar. We need to get out of this ideology of removing risk for one party of a transaction for "the good of the people" when we are uncertain and can not accurately price those gains (the gains in this case are the externalities associated with having an educated population).</p><p>If the education is valuable, the person will be able to gain the returns required to invest this money. If they aren't, then it isn't.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You want an unsecured loan to have the same interest rate as a secured asset ? You want the country to take on more loans which might be riskier than they are priced at.I know it 's not as bad as housing loans being underwritten by the government , but it 's similar .
We need to get out of this ideology of removing risk for one party of a transaction for " the good of the people " when we are uncertain and can not accurately price those gains ( the gains in this case are the externalities associated with having an educated population ) .If the education is valuable , the person will be able to gain the returns required to invest this money .
If they are n't , then it is n't .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You want an unsecured loan to have the same interest rate as a secured asset?You want the country to take on more loans which might be riskier than they are priced at.I know it's not as bad as housing loans being underwritten by the government, but it's similar.
We need to get out of this ideology of removing risk for one party of a transaction for "the good of the people" when we are uncertain and can not accurately price those gains (the gains in this case are the externalities associated with having an educated population).If the education is valuable, the person will be able to gain the returns required to invest this money.
If they aren't, then it isn't.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791311</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255946040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You sound like a decent enough guy, but I think you're seriously overestimating the knowledge that can be gained from minimum wage work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You sound like a decent enough guy , but I think you 're seriously overestimating the knowledge that can be gained from minimum wage work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You sound like a decent enough guy, but I think you're seriously overestimating the knowledge that can be gained from minimum wage work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790247</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792809</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>mysidia</author>
	<datestamp>1255961160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <em>I have never encountered any evidence whatsoever that any objective measurement of education quality correlates with an institution's exclusivity.</em> </p><p>
There is a limited supply of very good professors, and they are expensive to hire.
</p><p>
And an unlimited supply of students who want to go to schools where classes are taught by very good professors.
</p><p>
Quality education demands personal attention from professors.
</p><p>
Personal attention is very difficult when there are a large number of students per professor.
</p><p>
Maintaining a small number of students per professor requires either increasing the number of professors in relation to the number of students, or reducing the number of students.
</p><p>
But there is a limited supply of professors, and limited funds available to hire them.
</p><p>
On the other hand, controlling the number of students is easily done, by only accepting a proper number of students, and by charging them a high enough tuition to pay the best professors to take on the job.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have never encountered any evidence whatsoever that any objective measurement of education quality correlates with an institution 's exclusivity .
There is a limited supply of very good professors , and they are expensive to hire .
And an unlimited supply of students who want to go to schools where classes are taught by very good professors .
Quality education demands personal attention from professors .
Personal attention is very difficult when there are a large number of students per professor .
Maintaining a small number of students per professor requires either increasing the number of professors in relation to the number of students , or reducing the number of students .
But there is a limited supply of professors , and limited funds available to hire them .
On the other hand , controlling the number of students is easily done , by only accepting a proper number of students , and by charging them a high enough tuition to pay the best professors to take on the job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I have never encountered any evidence whatsoever that any objective measurement of education quality correlates with an institution's exclusivity.
There is a limited supply of very good professors, and they are expensive to hire.
And an unlimited supply of students who want to go to schools where classes are taught by very good professors.
Quality education demands personal attention from professors.
Personal attention is very difficult when there are a large number of students per professor.
Maintaining a small number of students per professor requires either increasing the number of professors in relation to the number of students, or reducing the number of students.
But there is a limited supply of professors, and limited funds available to hire them.
On the other hand, controlling the number of students is easily done, by only accepting a proper number of students, and by charging them a high enough tuition to pay the best professors to take on the job.
</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790099</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789457</id>
	<title>Re:Experience from academia</title>
	<author>skine</author>
	<datestamp>1255883460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>$30k is just ridiculous for tuition.</p><p>Of course, I may just be jaded from living in New York, where undergrad tuition in the SUNY system is less than $15,000 for non-residents, and generally less than than $7000 for residents per semester.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 30k is just ridiculous for tuition.Of course , I may just be jaded from living in New York , where undergrad tuition in the SUNY system is less than $ 15,000 for non-residents , and generally less than than $ 7000 for residents per semester .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$30k is just ridiculous for tuition.Of course, I may just be jaded from living in New York, where undergrad tuition in the SUNY system is less than $15,000 for non-residents, and generally less than than $7000 for residents per semester.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789155</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795061</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>Attila Dimedici</author>
	<datestamp>1255971300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Because proper education systems increase your wealth as well, the same as proper health systems benefit your health as well. Let me ask you this, would you rather have a nation full of highly educated white collar workers or a nation full of barely educated blue collar slobs barely able to swing a hammer?



Well the white collar workers of course, you cannot compete with the third world on manufacturing whilst maintaining a first world economy. </p></div><p>If we have a nation full of "white collar workers", who is going to build the houses we live in and the buildings we work in? Who is going to build the roads we use to get from one place to another? Who is going to transport goods from our seaports to where people live? Who is going to fix the vehicles we use to move around? There are a lot of blue collar jobs that are more economically valuable than most white collar jobs.<br>
In a later post you mention that "In Australia anyone who wants an education can afford one and their choices are only limited to their own abilities (their TEE scores and other marks)." In the U.S. one is not limited by one's abilities, merely by the ability to find the money. In the U.S.if you are willing to search long and hard enough, it is unlikely that you will not be able to find a source of money to pay for a college education, no matter what your qualifications to actually benefit from said education. In the U.S., a student with a low SAT (more or less the equivalent of the TEE) can still find a college or university somewhere that will accept him or her. <br>
I would be willing to accept a small set of schools that are fully paid for if you qualify for entry as long as they are limited to a small subset of the population (say the top 1\%, although I would be open to discussing what that number would be). Of course, in the U.S. there are already scholarships for such people. I could have gotten one if I had chosen a school that offered it. The college I went to offered only very limited academic scholarships, the only full rides were for "economic hardship", which I didn't qualify for, so I had to take out massive student loans.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Because proper education systems increase your wealth as well , the same as proper health systems benefit your health as well .
Let me ask you this , would you rather have a nation full of highly educated white collar workers or a nation full of barely educated blue collar slobs barely able to swing a hammer ?
Well the white collar workers of course , you can not compete with the third world on manufacturing whilst maintaining a first world economy .
If we have a nation full of " white collar workers " , who is going to build the houses we live in and the buildings we work in ?
Who is going to build the roads we use to get from one place to another ?
Who is going to transport goods from our seaports to where people live ?
Who is going to fix the vehicles we use to move around ?
There are a lot of blue collar jobs that are more economically valuable than most white collar jobs .
In a later post you mention that " In Australia anyone who wants an education can afford one and their choices are only limited to their own abilities ( their TEE scores and other marks ) .
" In the U.S. one is not limited by one 's abilities , merely by the ability to find the money .
In the U.S.if you are willing to search long and hard enough , it is unlikely that you will not be able to find a source of money to pay for a college education , no matter what your qualifications to actually benefit from said education .
In the U.S. , a student with a low SAT ( more or less the equivalent of the TEE ) can still find a college or university somewhere that will accept him or her .
I would be willing to accept a small set of schools that are fully paid for if you qualify for entry as long as they are limited to a small subset of the population ( say the top 1 \ % , although I would be open to discussing what that number would be ) .
Of course , in the U.S. there are already scholarships for such people .
I could have gotten one if I had chosen a school that offered it .
The college I went to offered only very limited academic scholarships , the only full rides were for " economic hardship " , which I did n't qualify for , so I had to take out massive student loans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because proper education systems increase your wealth as well, the same as proper health systems benefit your health as well.
Let me ask you this, would you rather have a nation full of highly educated white collar workers or a nation full of barely educated blue collar slobs barely able to swing a hammer?
Well the white collar workers of course, you cannot compete with the third world on manufacturing whilst maintaining a first world economy.
If we have a nation full of "white collar workers", who is going to build the houses we live in and the buildings we work in?
Who is going to build the roads we use to get from one place to another?
Who is going to transport goods from our seaports to where people live?
Who is going to fix the vehicles we use to move around?
There are a lot of blue collar jobs that are more economically valuable than most white collar jobs.
In a later post you mention that "In Australia anyone who wants an education can afford one and their choices are only limited to their own abilities (their TEE scores and other marks).
" In the U.S. one is not limited by one's abilities, merely by the ability to find the money.
In the U.S.if you are willing to search long and hard enough, it is unlikely that you will not be able to find a source of money to pay for a college education, no matter what your qualifications to actually benefit from said education.
In the U.S., a student with a low SAT (more or less the equivalent of the TEE) can still find a college or university somewhere that will accept him or her.
I would be willing to accept a small set of schools that are fully paid for if you qualify for entry as long as they are limited to a small subset of the population (say the top 1\%, although I would be open to discussing what that number would be).
Of course, in the U.S. there are already scholarships for such people.
I could have gotten one if I had chosen a school that offered it.
The college I went to offered only very limited academic scholarships, the only full rides were for "economic hardship", which I didn't qualify for, so I had to take out massive student loans.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790851</id>
	<title>Re:Restating the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255894980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unless you are resident in the UK for at least three continuous years before going to university, your children won't be eligible for UK home rate tuition fees, no matter what your nationality.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless you are resident in the UK for at least three continuous years before going to university , your children wo n't be eligible for UK home rate tuition fees , no matter what your nationality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless you are resident in the UK for at least three continuous years before going to university, your children won't be eligible for UK home rate tuition fees, no matter what your nationality.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789305</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29796041</id>
	<title>tuition increase due to government subsidies</title>
	<author>peter303</author>
	<datestamp>1255975080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If college education was an open market, they'd run out of students who could afford to pay.
<br>
I cringe whn I hear of some new government program or subsidy.  Because it will be throwing more fuel on the price fire.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If college education was an open market , they 'd run out of students who could afford to pay .
I cringe whn I hear of some new government program or subsidy .
Because it will be throwing more fuel on the price fire .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If college education was an open market, they'd run out of students who could afford to pay.
I cringe whn I hear of some new government program or subsidy.
Because it will be throwing more fuel on the price fire.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789743</id>
	<title>Why?</title>
	<author>Trogre</author>
	<datestamp>1255885260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>The government has bailed out homeowners. It's bailed out big businesses. Why can't it also help students?</i></p><p>You just answered your own question.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The government has bailed out homeowners .
It 's bailed out big businesses .
Why ca n't it also help students ? You just answered your own question .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The government has bailed out homeowners.
It's bailed out big businesses.
Why can't it also help students?You just answered your own question.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789639</id>
	<title>Re:Restating the problem</title>
	<author>BitterOak</author>
	<datestamp>1255884540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The problem is one of treating education as a business like any other. The country obtains a benefit from having an educated citizenry, and allowing education of this type to be treated as just another profit-center is at best short-sighted, at worst actively hostile to the country's best interests.</p></div><p>That's precisely what scholarships are for.  I had both my undergrad and grad school education paid for with scholarships, so I had no debt when I graduated.  There are many scholarships available from both government and private sources here in the U.S., but you have to work hard in high school to keep those grades up.  If you're not a super academic, there are often sports and music scholarships available as well.</p><p>The real problem is a much greater percentage of the population is going to college than did fifty years ago.  I agree with the parent that a well-educated population is a benefit to society, but the problem in America is that we have a large segment of the population that is under-educated (no high school diploma) and a huge segment of the population that is over educated.  Too many people are going to college and it costs money.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is one of treating education as a business like any other .
The country obtains a benefit from having an educated citizenry , and allowing education of this type to be treated as just another profit-center is at best short-sighted , at worst actively hostile to the country 's best interests.That 's precisely what scholarships are for .
I had both my undergrad and grad school education paid for with scholarships , so I had no debt when I graduated .
There are many scholarships available from both government and private sources here in the U.S. , but you have to work hard in high school to keep those grades up .
If you 're not a super academic , there are often sports and music scholarships available as well.The real problem is a much greater percentage of the population is going to college than did fifty years ago .
I agree with the parent that a well-educated population is a benefit to society , but the problem in America is that we have a large segment of the population that is under-educated ( no high school diploma ) and a huge segment of the population that is over educated .
Too many people are going to college and it costs money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is one of treating education as a business like any other.
The country obtains a benefit from having an educated citizenry, and allowing education of this type to be treated as just another profit-center is at best short-sighted, at worst actively hostile to the country's best interests.That's precisely what scholarships are for.
I had both my undergrad and grad school education paid for with scholarships, so I had no debt when I graduated.
There are many scholarships available from both government and private sources here in the U.S., but you have to work hard in high school to keep those grades up.
If you're not a super academic, there are often sports and music scholarships available as well.The real problem is a much greater percentage of the population is going to college than did fifty years ago.
I agree with the parent that a well-educated population is a benefit to society, but the problem in America is that we have a large segment of the population that is under-educated (no high school diploma) and a huge segment of the population that is over educated.
Too many people are going to college and it costs money.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789305</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29798279</id>
	<title>Probably redundant, but....</title>
	<author>mschuyler</author>
	<datestamp>1255983420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The student doesn't even have a deflated house as collateral--just a worthless degree. Why should he or she get a better interest rate or one equivalent to a home loan when they only have their own questionable decision to take out massive loans as a testimony to their ability to repay? They are quivalent to the pre-bust 'stated loans' where you don't have to prove your income.</p><p>I have to tell you, my daughter is in the business of obtaining grants and scholarships (not loans) for seniors in high school. She averages obtaining $300K per student in stuff they don't have to pay back. Of course, this is usually for multiple schools, only one of which they will attend, but this idea that you 'can't get' scholarships is simply not true, as she has repeatedly proven. If you do your part as a student, there is no reason why you can't get a free ride at the school of your choice if you just plan ahead and do the work necessary to pull down these scholarships and grants. Loans are a last resort for those unable or unwilling to get the grants, and if that's the case, no wonder the percentage is higher. You are a higher risk.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The student does n't even have a deflated house as collateral--just a worthless degree .
Why should he or she get a better interest rate or one equivalent to a home loan when they only have their own questionable decision to take out massive loans as a testimony to their ability to repay ?
They are quivalent to the pre-bust 'stated loans ' where you do n't have to prove your income.I have to tell you , my daughter is in the business of obtaining grants and scholarships ( not loans ) for seniors in high school .
She averages obtaining $ 300K per student in stuff they do n't have to pay back .
Of course , this is usually for multiple schools , only one of which they will attend , but this idea that you 'ca n't get ' scholarships is simply not true , as she has repeatedly proven .
If you do your part as a student , there is no reason why you ca n't get a free ride at the school of your choice if you just plan ahead and do the work necessary to pull down these scholarships and grants .
Loans are a last resort for those unable or unwilling to get the grants , and if that 's the case , no wonder the percentage is higher .
You are a higher risk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The student doesn't even have a deflated house as collateral--just a worthless degree.
Why should he or she get a better interest rate or one equivalent to a home loan when they only have their own questionable decision to take out massive loans as a testimony to their ability to repay?
They are quivalent to the pre-bust 'stated loans' where you don't have to prove your income.I have to tell you, my daughter is in the business of obtaining grants and scholarships (not loans) for seniors in high school.
She averages obtaining $300K per student in stuff they don't have to pay back.
Of course, this is usually for multiple schools, only one of which they will attend, but this idea that you 'can't get' scholarships is simply not true, as she has repeatedly proven.
If you do your part as a student, there is no reason why you can't get a free ride at the school of your choice if you just plan ahead and do the work necessary to pull down these scholarships and grants.
Loans are a last resort for those unable or unwilling to get the grants, and if that's the case, no wonder the percentage is higher.
You are a higher risk.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791607</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255950000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No. It will not 'beg the questions'. It might RAISE some questions, but begging a question is a completely different think, thank you very much.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No .
It will not 'beg the questions' .
It might RAISE some questions , but begging a question is a completely different think , thank you very much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No.
It will not 'beg the questions'.
It might RAISE some questions, but begging a question is a completely different think, thank you very much.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789631</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29796405</id>
	<title>Re:Waaa, Waaa, frikin' WAAAAA!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255976580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thank you.  I got accepted at CMU, MIT, RIT, and a few other schools.  I still wonder if I shouldn't have gone to CMU sometimes...because my undergrad education was weaker than theirs--and I know that haven't spoken to students.  Despite that--I know I would've taken on about 30K in debt a year at CMU after scholarships.</p><p>I currently owe only $7000 in student loans from a *decent* state college (not as good as CMU...they just can't be) I graduated from six years ago.  I refinanced once--then took out a private loan at the pitiful rate of 2.2\% and paid off the student loans.  I've got that rate fixed, and *could* pay it off right now--but I can do better than paying it off by infesting the balance elsewhere.</p><p>People need to man up and take responsibility.  Yes--I wish I had a CMU education--but I'm doing good enough without one.  And unlike the people I've met who've gone there (other than two who made it into the valley and get paid ridiculous amounts)--I have a retirement account started.  I don't owe kids who thought the best way to start their life off was 120k in debt a dime.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thank you .
I got accepted at CMU , MIT , RIT , and a few other schools .
I still wonder if I should n't have gone to CMU sometimes...because my undergrad education was weaker than theirs--and I know that have n't spoken to students .
Despite that--I know I would 've taken on about 30K in debt a year at CMU after scholarships.I currently owe only $ 7000 in student loans from a * decent * state college ( not as good as CMU...they just ca n't be ) I graduated from six years ago .
I refinanced once--then took out a private loan at the pitiful rate of 2.2 \ % and paid off the student loans .
I 've got that rate fixed , and * could * pay it off right now--but I can do better than paying it off by infesting the balance elsewhere.People need to man up and take responsibility .
Yes--I wish I had a CMU education--but I 'm doing good enough without one .
And unlike the people I 've met who 've gone there ( other than two who made it into the valley and get paid ridiculous amounts ) --I have a retirement account started .
I do n't owe kids who thought the best way to start their life off was 120k in debt a dime .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thank you.
I got accepted at CMU, MIT, RIT, and a few other schools.
I still wonder if I shouldn't have gone to CMU sometimes...because my undergrad education was weaker than theirs--and I know that haven't spoken to students.
Despite that--I know I would've taken on about 30K in debt a year at CMU after scholarships.I currently owe only $7000 in student loans from a *decent* state college (not as good as CMU...they just can't be) I graduated from six years ago.
I refinanced once--then took out a private loan at the pitiful rate of 2.2\% and paid off the student loans.
I've got that rate fixed, and *could* pay it off right now--but I can do better than paying it off by infesting the balance elsewhere.People need to man up and take responsibility.
Yes--I wish I had a CMU education--but I'm doing good enough without one.
And unlike the people I've met who've gone there (other than two who made it into the valley and get paid ridiculous amounts)--I have a retirement account started.
I don't owe kids who thought the best way to start their life off was 120k in debt a dime.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792859</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790697</id>
	<title>Re:High risk for lenders = high interest rates</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255893300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Student loans are not a high-risk investment. "U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan today announced that the FY 2007 national student loan cohort default rate increased to 6.7 percent, up from the FY 2006 rate of 5.2 percent." http://www.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2009/09/09142009.html</p><p>Student lenders also have stronger powers through the legal system to regain loans than any other normal loan. This action was meant to drive down loan costs. The interest rates for an undergraduate education are probably ok, when you are looking at someone who has a ~20\% chance of leaving the institution. However, charging this amount for graduate students (particularly medical and law students, who tend to take out loan amounts in the $100k's, and can have their license revoked for failure to pay) is completely ridiculous. It is punishing those who choose to pursue an education beyond normality, and those that the government is supposed to be encouraging.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Student loans are not a high-risk investment .
" U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan today announced that the FY 2007 national student loan cohort default rate increased to 6.7 percent , up from the FY 2006 rate of 5.2 percent .
" http : //www.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2009/09/09142009.htmlStudent lenders also have stronger powers through the legal system to regain loans than any other normal loan .
This action was meant to drive down loan costs .
The interest rates for an undergraduate education are probably ok , when you are looking at someone who has a ~ 20 \ % chance of leaving the institution .
However , charging this amount for graduate students ( particularly medical and law students , who tend to take out loan amounts in the $ 100k 's , and can have their license revoked for failure to pay ) is completely ridiculous .
It is punishing those who choose to pursue an education beyond normality , and those that the government is supposed to be encouraging .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Student loans are not a high-risk investment.
"U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan today announced that the FY 2007 national student loan cohort default rate increased to 6.7 percent, up from the FY 2006 rate of 5.2 percent.
" http://www.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2009/09/09142009.htmlStudent lenders also have stronger powers through the legal system to regain loans than any other normal loan.
This action was meant to drive down loan costs.
The interest rates for an undergraduate education are probably ok, when you are looking at someone who has a ~20\% chance of leaving the institution.
However, charging this amount for graduate students (particularly medical and law students, who tend to take out loan amounts in the $100k's, and can have their license revoked for failure to pay) is completely ridiculous.
It is punishing those who choose to pursue an education beyond normality, and those that the government is supposed to be encouraging.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789287</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789853</id>
	<title>Re:Restating the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255886100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What do you mean you "didn't pay"? You paid through taxes! One way or another you pay for your education whether directly or indirectly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What do you mean you " did n't pay " ?
You paid through taxes !
One way or another you pay for your education whether directly or indirectly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What do you mean you "didn't pay"?
You paid through taxes!
One way or another you pay for your education whether directly or indirectly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789305</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789287</id>
	<title>High risk for lenders = high interest rates</title>
	<author>AbsoluteXyro</author>
	<datestamp>1255882260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's plain and simple.  The reason interest rates on a certain category of loans is high is because the borrowers in that category present a high risk of default to the lenders.  This means that as more and more college grads struggle to land jobs, more and more of them will default on their loans, and interest rates on the whole will rise for everybody as lenders compensate for the increased risk.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's plain and simple .
The reason interest rates on a certain category of loans is high is because the borrowers in that category present a high risk of default to the lenders .
This means that as more and more college grads struggle to land jobs , more and more of them will default on their loans , and interest rates on the whole will rise for everybody as lenders compensate for the increased risk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's plain and simple.
The reason interest rates on a certain category of loans is high is because the borrowers in that category present a high risk of default to the lenders.
This means that as more and more college grads struggle to land jobs, more and more of them will default on their loans, and interest rates on the whole will rise for everybody as lenders compensate for the increased risk.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795415</id>
	<title>Re:Pissed at the bail-outs</title>
	<author>DNS-and-BIND</author>
	<datestamp>1255972620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>Can you imagine just how much goodwill this would cause? We'd be hailed the world over as harbingers of peace.</i> <p>Nope!  In many of the world's cultures, unrequested gifts are definitely signs of weakness.  Nice try, from your smallminded, limited Western point of view.  </p><p>PS you poor upper middle class American!  You sorts are the most-oppressed, put-upon people in the entire world.  Here, I got 30 Burmese orphans to knit you a sweater.  Only, they didn't have any wool like they do for $7 down at Hobby Lobby, so they made you a sweater out of grass clippings and old abandoned wasp nests instead.  Hope this makes you feel better about the whole "giving Stimulous (sic) money" to the military dictators of my country" thing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Can you imagine just how much goodwill this would cause ?
We 'd be hailed the world over as harbingers of peace .
Nope ! In many of the world 's cultures , unrequested gifts are definitely signs of weakness .
Nice try , from your smallminded , limited Western point of view .
PS you poor upper middle class American !
You sorts are the most-oppressed , put-upon people in the entire world .
Here , I got 30 Burmese orphans to knit you a sweater .
Only , they did n't have any wool like they do for $ 7 down at Hobby Lobby , so they made you a sweater out of grass clippings and old abandoned wasp nests instead .
Hope this makes you feel better about the whole " giving Stimulous ( sic ) money " to the military dictators of my country " thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can you imagine just how much goodwill this would cause?
We'd be hailed the world over as harbingers of peace.
Nope!  In many of the world's cultures, unrequested gifts are definitely signs of weakness.
Nice try, from your smallminded, limited Western point of view.
PS you poor upper middle class American!
You sorts are the most-oppressed, put-upon people in the entire world.
Here, I got 30 Burmese orphans to knit you a sweater.
Only, they didn't have any wool like they do for $7 down at Hobby Lobby, so they made you a sweater out of grass clippings and old abandoned wasp nests instead.
Hope this makes you feel better about the whole "giving Stimulous (sic) money" to the military dictators of my country" thing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789863</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791927</id>
	<title>Leave</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255953540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously.  My wife and I finally gave up on the US.  It's not possible to fix the problems.  So we took our money and moved elsewhere.</p><p>The problems are as obvious as the solutions, which will never be implemented.  Watching news from the states is like watching the band play on the Titanic.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously .
My wife and I finally gave up on the US .
It 's not possible to fix the problems .
So we took our money and moved elsewhere.The problems are as obvious as the solutions , which will never be implemented .
Watching news from the states is like watching the band play on the Titanic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously.
My wife and I finally gave up on the US.
It's not possible to fix the problems.
So we took our money and moved elsewhere.The problems are as obvious as the solutions, which will never be implemented.
Watching news from the states is like watching the band play on the Titanic.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789811</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>PPH</author>
	<datestamp>1255885740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person is capable of attaining,</p></div><p>There. Fixed it for you.</p><p>The last thing we need is for the government to finance four (or more) years of partying...er, I mean higher education, to anyone who doesn't want to go out and get a job after high school. Paying for your education (either up front or in the form of a loan) is motivation to protect ones investment. Or to think twice about whether its worth making it at all. Not everyone is college material and burgers won't flip themselves.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person is capable of attaining,There .
Fixed it for you.The last thing we need is for the government to finance four ( or more ) years of partying...er , I mean higher education , to anyone who does n't want to go out and get a job after high school .
Paying for your education ( either up front or in the form of a loan ) is motivation to protect ones investment .
Or to think twice about whether its worth making it at all .
Not everyone is college material and burgers wo n't flip themselves .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person is capable of attaining,There.
Fixed it for you.The last thing we need is for the government to finance four (or more) years of partying...er, I mean higher education, to anyone who doesn't want to go out and get a job after high school.
Paying for your education (either up front or in the form of a loan) is motivation to protect ones investment.
Or to think twice about whether its worth making it at all.
Not everyone is college material and burgers won't flip themselves.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789417</id>
	<title>Re:It's cheap compared to India...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255883100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And in India do you know what you're signing up for before you do it?</p><p>If you've spent the money to go to grad school in deferment of employment, do you think you should be able to easily change the terms of the loan you agreed to?</p><p>My opinion is that people should have to make good on the loans they've asked for and taken.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And in India do you know what you 're signing up for before you do it ? If you 've spent the money to go to grad school in deferment of employment , do you think you should be able to easily change the terms of the loan you agreed to ? My opinion is that people should have to make good on the loans they 've asked for and taken .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And in India do you know what you're signing up for before you do it?If you've spent the money to go to grad school in deferment of employment, do you think you should be able to easily change the terms of the loan you agreed to?My opinion is that people should have to make good on the loans they've asked for and taken.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789151</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790313</id>
	<title>Re:Restating the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255889520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Surprise buddy: if your kids weren't born in the UK, then they ain't British.  I have a couple of American friends who were surprised as hell that their American passports didn't make any impression on the Chinese authorities.  Kid was born in China, lives in China, has Chinese parent: he's Chinese.  America is the same way, but worse because of the whole child custody divorce thing.  <p>PS if you think someone's mind gets broadened by living in a UK university town, that's your affair.  More likely the anal opening is getting broadened, if you get my drift.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Surprise buddy : if your kids were n't born in the UK , then they ai n't British .
I have a couple of American friends who were surprised as hell that their American passports did n't make any impression on the Chinese authorities .
Kid was born in China , lives in China , has Chinese parent : he 's Chinese .
America is the same way , but worse because of the whole child custody divorce thing .
PS if you think someone 's mind gets broadened by living in a UK university town , that 's your affair .
More likely the anal opening is getting broadened , if you get my drift .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Surprise buddy: if your kids weren't born in the UK, then they ain't British.
I have a couple of American friends who were surprised as hell that their American passports didn't make any impression on the Chinese authorities.
Kid was born in China, lives in China, has Chinese parent: he's Chinese.
America is the same way, but worse because of the whole child custody divorce thing.
PS if you think someone's mind gets broadened by living in a UK university town, that's your affair.
More likely the anal opening is getting broadened, if you get my drift.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789305</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790069</id>
	<title>shut up</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255887540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The real problem is that you feel entitled.  "I deserve to go to college, I deserve a good paying job, I deserve to have my debts paid."  You signed up for this when you took the loans.  Now you sound like a little baby, complaining because you've been a good boy but the bad man won't forgive your debt.  Stop crying for mommy, shut up, and pay up.  Remember how your elders would talk about the "real world" that you would someday join?  Welcome to it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The real problem is that you feel entitled .
" I deserve to go to college , I deserve a good paying job , I deserve to have my debts paid .
" You signed up for this when you took the loans .
Now you sound like a little baby , complaining because you 've been a good boy but the bad man wo n't forgive your debt .
Stop crying for mommy , shut up , and pay up .
Remember how your elders would talk about the " real world " that you would someday join ?
Welcome to it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The real problem is that you feel entitled.
"I deserve to go to college, I deserve a good paying job, I deserve to have my debts paid.
"  You signed up for this when you took the loans.
Now you sound like a little baby, complaining because you've been a good boy but the bad man won't forgive your debt.
Stop crying for mommy, shut up, and pay up.
Remember how your elders would talk about the "real world" that you would someday join?
Welcome to it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789703</id>
	<title>Boo-fucking-hoo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255884960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You agreed to the terms, now abide by them and quit your damn whining.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You agreed to the terms , now abide by them and quit your damn whining .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You agreed to the terms, now abide by them and quit your damn whining.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789253</id>
	<title>You always could have worked our way through...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255882080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I saw the problem with school loans when my brother graduated from law school.  I decided to work 40 hours a week at night and put myself through school.  I graduated without any loans, but it took 6 years.  All I can say is you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.</p><p>The real problem with school is that it's too expensive.   We should consider it an investment to make college cheap.  We don't.  Business has decided that they don't need to pay taxes to keep schools open or up to date.  They merely recruit the "best and the brightest" from around the world and lobby for low corporate taxes in the U.S.</p><p>The U.S. is becoming a really nice place to live...if you're rich.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I saw the problem with school loans when my brother graduated from law school .
I decided to work 40 hours a week at night and put myself through school .
I graduated without any loans , but it took 6 years .
All I can say is you 're damned if you do and damned if you do n't.The real problem with school is that it 's too expensive .
We should consider it an investment to make college cheap .
We do n't .
Business has decided that they do n't need to pay taxes to keep schools open or up to date .
They merely recruit the " best and the brightest " from around the world and lobby for low corporate taxes in the U.S.The U.S. is becoming a really nice place to live...if you 're rich .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I saw the problem with school loans when my brother graduated from law school.
I decided to work 40 hours a week at night and put myself through school.
I graduated without any loans, but it took 6 years.
All I can say is you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.The real problem with school is that it's too expensive.
We should consider it an investment to make college cheap.
We don't.
Business has decided that they don't need to pay taxes to keep schools open or up to date.
They merely recruit the "best and the brightest" from around the world and lobby for low corporate taxes in the U.S.The U.S. is becoming a really nice place to live...if you're rich.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790623</id>
	<title>Re:Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>BZ</author>
	<datestamp>1255892580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; I lived at home to save money and commuted to school.</p><p>Just to be clear, here are some tuition + obviously required fees (so not including books at all, nor possibly-required meal plans, etc; and yes, some schools require meal-plans even for non-dorm-residents nowadays) for this year for some public schools I just checked on:</p><p>U of MD: 8k in-state, 24k out-of-state.<br>U of VA: 9.5k in-state, 30k out-of-state.<br>U of WA: 7.7k in-state, 24k out-of-state.<br>UCLA: 9k in-state, 31k out-of-state.<br>U of IL: 8.5k in-state, 22.5k out-of-state.<br>Rutgers: 11.8k in-state, 23k out-of-state.</p><p>So as soon as you go out-of-state (which I assume the poster did given his numbers and which one might want to do because the in-state school happens to not have a program in the field you want to be in), you're looking at 25-30k just for tuition.  Room+board+so forth will add another 10-15k depending on school.  That's all for public schools; private schools are more expensive.</p><p>If you're in-state, and you are lucky enough to have your parents living close enough to campus to commute sanely (live on the Eastern Shore of MD? sucks to be you!), then you can get away with ~10k a year not counting transportation costs, cost of textbooks, and whatever fees these schools aren't clearly listing on their website (and there are generally some).  Another 1-3k per year is likely a good estimate for the above...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; I lived at home to save money and commuted to school.Just to be clear , here are some tuition + obviously required fees ( so not including books at all , nor possibly-required meal plans , etc ; and yes , some schools require meal-plans even for non-dorm-residents nowadays ) for this year for some public schools I just checked on : U of MD : 8k in-state , 24k out-of-state.U of VA : 9.5k in-state , 30k out-of-state.U of WA : 7.7k in-state , 24k out-of-state.UCLA : 9k in-state , 31k out-of-state.U of IL : 8.5k in-state , 22.5k out-of-state.Rutgers : 11.8k in-state , 23k out-of-state.So as soon as you go out-of-state ( which I assume the poster did given his numbers and which one might want to do because the in-state school happens to not have a program in the field you want to be in ) , you 're looking at 25-30k just for tuition .
Room + board + so forth will add another 10-15k depending on school .
That 's all for public schools ; private schools are more expensive.If you 're in-state , and you are lucky enough to have your parents living close enough to campus to commute sanely ( live on the Eastern Shore of MD ?
sucks to be you !
) , then you can get away with ~ 10k a year not counting transportation costs , cost of textbooks , and whatever fees these schools are n't clearly listing on their website ( and there are generally some ) .
Another 1-3k per year is likely a good estimate for the above.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; I lived at home to save money and commuted to school.Just to be clear, here are some tuition + obviously required fees (so not including books at all, nor possibly-required meal plans, etc; and yes, some schools require meal-plans even for non-dorm-residents nowadays) for this year for some public schools I just checked on:U of MD: 8k in-state, 24k out-of-state.U of VA: 9.5k in-state, 30k out-of-state.U of WA: 7.7k in-state, 24k out-of-state.UCLA: 9k in-state, 31k out-of-state.U of IL: 8.5k in-state, 22.5k out-of-state.Rutgers: 11.8k in-state, 23k out-of-state.So as soon as you go out-of-state (which I assume the poster did given his numbers and which one might want to do because the in-state school happens to not have a program in the field you want to be in), you're looking at 25-30k just for tuition.
Room+board+so forth will add another 10-15k depending on school.
That's all for public schools; private schools are more expensive.If you're in-state, and you are lucky enough to have your parents living close enough to campus to commute sanely (live on the Eastern Shore of MD?
sucks to be you!
), then you can get away with ~10k a year not counting transportation costs, cost of textbooks, and whatever fees these schools aren't clearly listing on their website (and there are generally some).
Another 1-3k per year is likely a good estimate for the above...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789831</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789597</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>tftp</author>
	<datestamp>1255884240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>If you want financial aid or even some scholarships, you have no choice but to take whatever loan they offer you.</i>
</p><p>
You can always walk away and not want the loan. Universities do not posess some secret knowledge, it's all in the books and if you can read you can learn. Smart employers will ignore your lack of degree if instead you present a lot of experience. They know that most of what you learned in university is useless and better be forgotten. It is quite easy to become an expert in programming, FPGA design and hardware design while never leaving your home - if only you can read. For example, analog RF designers with microwave experience and specific knowledge are rare, but needed everywhere - because microwave design is hard, in theory and in practice. But it's not impossible to learn.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you want financial aid or even some scholarships , you have no choice but to take whatever loan they offer you .
You can always walk away and not want the loan .
Universities do not posess some secret knowledge , it 's all in the books and if you can read you can learn .
Smart employers will ignore your lack of degree if instead you present a lot of experience .
They know that most of what you learned in university is useless and better be forgotten .
It is quite easy to become an expert in programming , FPGA design and hardware design while never leaving your home - if only you can read .
For example , analog RF designers with microwave experience and specific knowledge are rare , but needed everywhere - because microwave design is hard , in theory and in practice .
But it 's not impossible to learn .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> If you want financial aid or even some scholarships, you have no choice but to take whatever loan they offer you.
You can always walk away and not want the loan.
Universities do not posess some secret knowledge, it's all in the books and if you can read you can learn.
Smart employers will ignore your lack of degree if instead you present a lot of experience.
They know that most of what you learned in university is useless and better be forgotten.
It is quite easy to become an expert in programming, FPGA design and hardware design while never leaving your home - if only you can read.
For example, analog RF designers with microwave experience and specific knowledge are rare, but needed everywhere - because microwave design is hard, in theory and in practice.
But it's not impossible to learn.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789329</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789467</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255883520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <em>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.
<br> <br>
But when a government just wants dumb consumers, then it's a very different matter.
</em> </p><p>
Why should it be free and open?
</p><p>
Certainly it's not in the best interests of these institutions, nor in the interests of people who actually are committed to getting an education, for all students to get in free of tuition and admission selection requirements.    As such a thing massively dilutes the quality of the institution, and the quality of the education that is available.
</p><p>
What's wrong with students having to work to earn money to obtain the education they feel they want?  And to earn the money for room and board..
</p><p>
Keep in mind, even when a university education is not free there <b>are a lot</b> of people who go to school, not because they really have a commitment in getting an education, but because they think they will earn more money with a college degree,  because statistics tell them they will.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain , because that 's part of believing that the nation 's most most important resource is its people .
But when a government just wants dumb consumers , then it 's a very different matter .
Why should it be free and open ?
Certainly it 's not in the best interests of these institutions , nor in the interests of people who actually are committed to getting an education , for all students to get in free of tuition and admission selection requirements .
As such a thing massively dilutes the quality of the institution , and the quality of the education that is available .
What 's wrong with students having to work to earn money to obtain the education they feel they want ?
And to earn the money for room and board. . Keep in mind , even when a university education is not free there are a lot of people who go to school , not because they really have a commitment in getting an education , but because they think they will earn more money with a college degree , because statistics tell them they will .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> A civilized nation should provide free education to the highest level each person wishes to attain, because that's part of believing that the nation's most most important resource is its people.
But when a government just wants dumb consumers, then it's a very different matter.
Why should it be free and open?
Certainly it's not in the best interests of these institutions, nor in the interests of people who actually are committed to getting an education, for all students to get in free of tuition and admission selection requirements.
As such a thing massively dilutes the quality of the institution, and the quality of the education that is available.
What's wrong with students having to work to earn money to obtain the education they feel they want?
And to earn the money for room and board..

Keep in mind, even when a university education is not free there are a lot of people who go to school, not because they really have a commitment in getting an education, but because they think they will earn more money with a college degree,  because statistics tell them they will.
</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791117</id>
	<title>Re:credit-unworthy or just greedy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255985280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think you didn't get the point. This is capitalism. When there is much demand, but not much offer (eg "credit-unworty lot" wanting a loan, banks don't want to take the risk), then the price goes up. Why? Because they can.</p><p>But I agree the point with students is completely nuts. I mean, the loan is "non-dischargeable in bankruptcy", what risk are we talking about? That he gets hit by a car? But it's quite different here in Europe. Banks actually try to get people put/loan money from them, because the student crowd is relatively loyal AND the big money earners of tomorrow, so it's maybe because of short-term thinking, you should also see what happens afterwards.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think you did n't get the point .
This is capitalism .
When there is much demand , but not much offer ( eg " credit-unworty lot " wanting a loan , banks do n't want to take the risk ) , then the price goes up .
Why ? Because they can.But I agree the point with students is completely nuts .
I mean , the loan is " non-dischargeable in bankruptcy " , what risk are we talking about ?
That he gets hit by a car ?
But it 's quite different here in Europe .
Banks actually try to get people put/loan money from them , because the student crowd is relatively loyal AND the big money earners of tomorrow , so it 's maybe because of short-term thinking , you should also see what happens afterwards .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think you didn't get the point.
This is capitalism.
When there is much demand, but not much offer (eg "credit-unworty lot" wanting a loan, banks don't want to take the risk), then the price goes up.
Why? Because they can.But I agree the point with students is completely nuts.
I mean, the loan is "non-dischargeable in bankruptcy", what risk are we talking about?
That he gets hit by a car?
But it's quite different here in Europe.
Banks actually try to get people put/loan money from them, because the student crowd is relatively loyal AND the big money earners of tomorrow, so it's maybe because of short-term thinking, you should also see what happens afterwards.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789285</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789195</id>
	<title>Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255881720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>You saw the rates when you signed the papers. Not anyone's fault but yours. And no, I didn't want a bailout for GM or the banks either.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You saw the rates when you signed the papers .
Not anyone 's fault but yours .
And no , I did n't want a bailout for GM or the banks either .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You saw the rates when you signed the papers.
Not anyone's fault but yours.
And no, I didn't want a bailout for GM or the banks either.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795909</id>
	<title>Re:Nothing like starting life $100K in the hole</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1255974480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>To me this is a tragedy. Young people starting off almost $100K in the hole.</p></div></blockquote><p>Thats what happens when you live off of someone elses money for several years.</p><p>They aren't starting off in the hole, they dug the hole and climbed in when they decided to spend 4-12 years partying through undergrad and grad school rather than working a job as well.</p><p>Instead of ranting about how people should give you something for free, why don't you get off your lazy ass and work like everyone else?  Why are you entitled to a free ride?</p><p>Wait, I remember why, you AREN'T.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>To me this is a tragedy .
Young people starting off almost $ 100K in the hole.Thats what happens when you live off of someone elses money for several years.They are n't starting off in the hole , they dug the hole and climbed in when they decided to spend 4-12 years partying through undergrad and grad school rather than working a job as well.Instead of ranting about how people should give you something for free , why do n't you get off your lazy ass and work like everyone else ?
Why are you entitled to a free ride ? Wait , I remember why , you ARE N'T .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To me this is a tragedy.
Young people starting off almost $100K in the hole.Thats what happens when you live off of someone elses money for several years.They aren't starting off in the hole, they dug the hole and climbed in when they decided to spend 4-12 years partying through undergrad and grad school rather than working a job as well.Instead of ranting about how people should give you something for free, why don't you get off your lazy ass and work like everyone else?
Why are you entitled to a free ride?Wait, I remember why, you AREN'T.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789425</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792851</id>
	<title>Why are mortgages 5\% and education loans 8.5\%?</title>
	<author>Chris Mattern</author>
	<datestamp>1255961280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Because you can't foreclose on someone's education.  Next question.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because you ca n't foreclose on someone 's education .
Next question .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because you can't foreclose on someone's education.
Next question.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790101</id>
	<title>Re:credit-unworthy or just greedy?</title>
	<author>nine-times</author>
	<datestamp>1255887720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, on the one hand, it makes sense: loaning money to someone unlikely to pay it back is a risky investment, and risky investments demand higher returns.  If presented with a risky investment or a risk-free investment, both offering the same return, you'd never make a risky investment.
</p><p>On the other hand, you're taking the very people who are least likely to be able to pay their loans off, and you're making it even harder.  That makes no sense.  It's just another example of it being more <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/17/AR2009051702053.html" title="washingtonpost.com">expensive to be poor</a> [washingtonpost.com].</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , on the one hand , it makes sense : loaning money to someone unlikely to pay it back is a risky investment , and risky investments demand higher returns .
If presented with a risky investment or a risk-free investment , both offering the same return , you 'd never make a risky investment .
On the other hand , you 're taking the very people who are least likely to be able to pay their loans off , and you 're making it even harder .
That makes no sense .
It 's just another example of it being more expensive to be poor [ washingtonpost.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, on the one hand, it makes sense: loaning money to someone unlikely to pay it back is a risky investment, and risky investments demand higher returns.
If presented with a risky investment or a risk-free investment, both offering the same return, you'd never make a risky investment.
On the other hand, you're taking the very people who are least likely to be able to pay their loans off, and you're making it even harder.
That makes no sense.
It's just another example of it being more expensive to be poor [washingtonpost.com].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789285</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29796627</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>natehoy</author>
	<datestamp>1255977360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I started saving for my college fund when I was 12, when I got my first paper route.  I continued working 1-2 part time jobs and saving as much as I could until I got out of high school, at which point I took on a full-time job plus a couple of part-time jobs.  I was lucky in that my parents allowed me to live in their basement rent-free as long as I was getting an education, but unfortunate in that my father owned his own business and the government used an income formula from his business as the basis for determining how much financial aid I could get that ensured the aid amount was effectively zero.  So it was "pay cash or get a loan".</p><p>I looked at the rates on college loans, my available funds, and my aid amount, and quickly decided that my chosen college (MIT) would have been really cool but I had enough saved up for about three classes in the first semester.  So I went to a state University where I made it about 2 1/2 years before a full-time + 2 part-time job load + full-time University workload made me a crispy critter, plus I had run out of money and my father's business had folded putting him hock and leaving me looking for a new place to live.</p><p>So I did what I had to do.  I left the University, leveraged what I had learned so far into an entry-level IT job, learned to continue loving Ramen Noodles, and focused on building a career and some financial freedom before returning to college to finish up my degree.  That meant buying a VERY small house and 60+ hour weeks of employment to afford the mortgage on my house for a while, and saving every other penny by purchasing very little I didn't actually need.  This continued for a few years.</p><p>So, from the ages of 12 to about 25 I worked at multiple simultaneous jobs pretty much continuously.</p><p>By then, I had enough experience that the sheepskin was really about unlocking job opportunities that required the "haz degree" tickybox checked, and various employers paid the lions share of various bits of the degree until I completed it a few years ago - 19 years after first entering the hallowed halls of a University.</p><p>My point is, if you don't have the money for the college of your choice, but circumstances keep you from getting any financial aid, then you have several options.</p><p>You can get a college loan, meaning the government will keep your lender from charging you interest while you are in school and give you a deferral period afterward, which means YOU have to take the risk if your education does not benefit you.  The usurious rates on college loans are due, in part, to that risk.  If you don't get a good job, you aren't likely to be able to pay them back.  A student is a poor risk as a potential borrower, especially one who already has a sense of entitlement that he's worked a part time job through high school and society owes him something in return.  Student loans, the stock market, and buying houses all have risks - if you can't leverage their value into some benefit and you can't handle the risk, then don't deal in.</p><p>You can start college out more slowly.  Get a full-time job doing something, preferably an entry-level job in your chosen field.  I guarantee it won't pay a lot, and you're in for some serious work.  But, heck, you never know, after a couple of years many companies will pay for your college education or help you out a lot.  This is a slow road, and it means lots of hard work supporting a job, possibly a family, and a college education at the same time, but you get to work on your career early and develop working relationships with employers.  By the time you want your dream job, you've proven yourself worthy and have experience finding and keeping jobs.  Just watch some of the college kids coming out, assuming that because they scrimped and got their college education, the world "owes" them a job.  Sadly, it ain't any more so than the word "owing" you a college education just because you've worked hard so far.</p><p>Or you can join the military or peace corps and get your education paid for, plus get lots of other</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I started saving for my college fund when I was 12 , when I got my first paper route .
I continued working 1-2 part time jobs and saving as much as I could until I got out of high school , at which point I took on a full-time job plus a couple of part-time jobs .
I was lucky in that my parents allowed me to live in their basement rent-free as long as I was getting an education , but unfortunate in that my father owned his own business and the government used an income formula from his business as the basis for determining how much financial aid I could get that ensured the aid amount was effectively zero .
So it was " pay cash or get a loan " .I looked at the rates on college loans , my available funds , and my aid amount , and quickly decided that my chosen college ( MIT ) would have been really cool but I had enough saved up for about three classes in the first semester .
So I went to a state University where I made it about 2 1/2 years before a full-time + 2 part-time job load + full-time University workload made me a crispy critter , plus I had run out of money and my father 's business had folded putting him hock and leaving me looking for a new place to live.So I did what I had to do .
I left the University , leveraged what I had learned so far into an entry-level IT job , learned to continue loving Ramen Noodles , and focused on building a career and some financial freedom before returning to college to finish up my degree .
That meant buying a VERY small house and 60 + hour weeks of employment to afford the mortgage on my house for a while , and saving every other penny by purchasing very little I did n't actually need .
This continued for a few years.So , from the ages of 12 to about 25 I worked at multiple simultaneous jobs pretty much continuously.By then , I had enough experience that the sheepskin was really about unlocking job opportunities that required the " haz degree " tickybox checked , and various employers paid the lions share of various bits of the degree until I completed it a few years ago - 19 years after first entering the hallowed halls of a University.My point is , if you do n't have the money for the college of your choice , but circumstances keep you from getting any financial aid , then you have several options.You can get a college loan , meaning the government will keep your lender from charging you interest while you are in school and give you a deferral period afterward , which means YOU have to take the risk if your education does not benefit you .
The usurious rates on college loans are due , in part , to that risk .
If you do n't get a good job , you are n't likely to be able to pay them back .
A student is a poor risk as a potential borrower , especially one who already has a sense of entitlement that he 's worked a part time job through high school and society owes him something in return .
Student loans , the stock market , and buying houses all have risks - if you ca n't leverage their value into some benefit and you ca n't handle the risk , then do n't deal in.You can start college out more slowly .
Get a full-time job doing something , preferably an entry-level job in your chosen field .
I guarantee it wo n't pay a lot , and you 're in for some serious work .
But , heck , you never know , after a couple of years many companies will pay for your college education or help you out a lot .
This is a slow road , and it means lots of hard work supporting a job , possibly a family , and a college education at the same time , but you get to work on your career early and develop working relationships with employers .
By the time you want your dream job , you 've proven yourself worthy and have experience finding and keeping jobs .
Just watch some of the college kids coming out , assuming that because they scrimped and got their college education , the world " owes " them a job .
Sadly , it ai n't any more so than the word " owing " you a college education just because you 've worked hard so far.Or you can join the military or peace corps and get your education paid for , plus get lots of other</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started saving for my college fund when I was 12, when I got my first paper route.
I continued working 1-2 part time jobs and saving as much as I could until I got out of high school, at which point I took on a full-time job plus a couple of part-time jobs.
I was lucky in that my parents allowed me to live in their basement rent-free as long as I was getting an education, but unfortunate in that my father owned his own business and the government used an income formula from his business as the basis for determining how much financial aid I could get that ensured the aid amount was effectively zero.
So it was "pay cash or get a loan".I looked at the rates on college loans, my available funds, and my aid amount, and quickly decided that my chosen college (MIT) would have been really cool but I had enough saved up for about three classes in the first semester.
So I went to a state University where I made it about 2 1/2 years before a full-time + 2 part-time job load + full-time University workload made me a crispy critter, plus I had run out of money and my father's business had folded putting him hock and leaving me looking for a new place to live.So I did what I had to do.
I left the University, leveraged what I had learned so far into an entry-level IT job, learned to continue loving Ramen Noodles, and focused on building a career and some financial freedom before returning to college to finish up my degree.
That meant buying a VERY small house and 60+ hour weeks of employment to afford the mortgage on my house for a while, and saving every other penny by purchasing very little I didn't actually need.
This continued for a few years.So, from the ages of 12 to about 25 I worked at multiple simultaneous jobs pretty much continuously.By then, I had enough experience that the sheepskin was really about unlocking job opportunities that required the "haz degree" tickybox checked, and various employers paid the lions share of various bits of the degree until I completed it a few years ago - 19 years after first entering the hallowed halls of a University.My point is, if you don't have the money for the college of your choice, but circumstances keep you from getting any financial aid, then you have several options.You can get a college loan, meaning the government will keep your lender from charging you interest while you are in school and give you a deferral period afterward, which means YOU have to take the risk if your education does not benefit you.
The usurious rates on college loans are due, in part, to that risk.
If you don't get a good job, you aren't likely to be able to pay them back.
A student is a poor risk as a potential borrower, especially one who already has a sense of entitlement that he's worked a part time job through high school and society owes him something in return.
Student loans, the stock market, and buying houses all have risks - if you can't leverage their value into some benefit and you can't handle the risk, then don't deal in.You can start college out more slowly.
Get a full-time job doing something, preferably an entry-level job in your chosen field.
I guarantee it won't pay a lot, and you're in for some serious work.
But, heck, you never know, after a couple of years many companies will pay for your college education or help you out a lot.
This is a slow road, and it means lots of hard work supporting a job, possibly a family, and a college education at the same time, but you get to work on your career early and develop working relationships with employers.
By the time you want your dream job, you've proven yourself worthy and have experience finding and keeping jobs.
Just watch some of the college kids coming out, assuming that because they scrimped and got their college education, the world "owes" them a job.
Sadly, it ain't any more so than the word "owing" you a college education just because you've worked hard so far.Or you can join the military or peace corps and get your education paid for, plus get lots of other</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789241</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29797287</id>
	<title>Detectability?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255979760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; student loans have very limited tax detectability.</p><p>Did you mean deductability?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; student loans have very limited tax detectability.Did you mean deductability ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; student loans have very limited tax detectability.Did you mean deductability?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790987</id>
	<title>Re:Nothing like starting life $100K in the hole</title>
	<author>phantomfive</author>
	<datestamp>1255983180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The natural response is for people to start going to cheaper schools.   Not every school will saddle you with $100k bills; you can actually pay for Berkeley by working at the same time you're going to school.  State schools are a lot cheaper, and other alternatives like DeVry are becoming more viable options for many jobs.<p><div class="quote"><p>Republicans would scream about budget deficits.</p> </div><p>As they should, the deficit is a real serious problem.  However, they should also stop adding to the deficit.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>everyone on both sides of the political pork barrel have to STFU long enough to get it done.</p></div><p>Yeah, there are a lot of problems could be easily fixed if people just got together and fixed it. Someone should run a campaign based around the idea <b>"Government That Works."</b> They would easily win.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The natural response is for people to start going to cheaper schools .
Not every school will saddle you with $ 100k bills ; you can actually pay for Berkeley by working at the same time you 're going to school .
State schools are a lot cheaper , and other alternatives like DeVry are becoming more viable options for many jobs.Republicans would scream about budget deficits .
As they should , the deficit is a real serious problem .
However , they should also stop adding to the deficit.everyone on both sides of the political pork barrel have to STFU long enough to get it done.Yeah , there are a lot of problems could be easily fixed if people just got together and fixed it .
Someone should run a campaign based around the idea " Government That Works .
" They would easily win .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The natural response is for people to start going to cheaper schools.
Not every school will saddle you with $100k bills; you can actually pay for Berkeley by working at the same time you're going to school.
State schools are a lot cheaper, and other alternatives like DeVry are becoming more viable options for many jobs.Republicans would scream about budget deficits.
As they should, the deficit is a real serious problem.
However, they should also stop adding to the deficit.everyone on both sides of the political pork barrel have to STFU long enough to get it done.Yeah, there are a lot of problems could be easily fixed if people just got together and fixed it.
Someone should run a campaign based around the idea "Government That Works.
" They would easily win.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789425</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790217</id>
	<title>High Tuition Fees are Criminal</title>
	<author>DrEasy</author>
	<datestamp>1255888740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Because of high tuition fees, North Americans view education as an investment, not as the pursuit of knowledge. As a result, we end up at best with a society of soulless engineers for hire (hey I'm on Slashdot and I'm one of them!), i.e. those who went to college, and at worst with an uneducated mass who thinks Africa is a country, i.e. those who didn't or got a cheap education. Where will the next generation of brilliant philosophers, historians, mathematicians, and linguists come from? Probably not North America. And we're all guilty by selfishly not being willing to pay whatever taxes it takes to get rid of tuition fees.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because of high tuition fees , North Americans view education as an investment , not as the pursuit of knowledge .
As a result , we end up at best with a society of soulless engineers for hire ( hey I 'm on Slashdot and I 'm one of them !
) , i.e .
those who went to college , and at worst with an uneducated mass who thinks Africa is a country , i.e .
those who did n't or got a cheap education .
Where will the next generation of brilliant philosophers , historians , mathematicians , and linguists come from ?
Probably not North America .
And we 're all guilty by selfishly not being willing to pay whatever taxes it takes to get rid of tuition fees .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because of high tuition fees, North Americans view education as an investment, not as the pursuit of knowledge.
As a result, we end up at best with a society of soulless engineers for hire (hey I'm on Slashdot and I'm one of them!
), i.e.
those who went to college, and at worst with an uneducated mass who thinks Africa is a country, i.e.
those who didn't or got a cheap education.
Where will the next generation of brilliant philosophers, historians, mathematicians, and linguists come from?
Probably not North America.
And we're all guilty by selfishly not being willing to pay whatever taxes it takes to get rid of tuition fees.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789483</id>
	<title>This is the real reason why US is losing its ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255883580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>standing in the world.  It refuses to INVEST in future generations as a country, and instead only lets the monied class educate themselves.  Thus the US becomes progressively stupider until the state you find it in now.  Its only going to get worse guys, because of your shitty "me first" rather than "we first" philosophies and government policies.  Unless you start putting education first, you're going to find yourselves turning into a 2nd world country.</htmltext>
<tokenext>standing in the world .
It refuses to INVEST in future generations as a country , and instead only lets the monied class educate themselves .
Thus the US becomes progressively stupider until the state you find it in now .
Its only going to get worse guys , because of your shitty " me first " rather than " we first " philosophies and government policies .
Unless you start putting education first , you 're going to find yourselves turning into a 2nd world country .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>standing in the world.
It refuses to INVEST in future generations as a country, and instead only lets the monied class educate themselves.
Thus the US becomes progressively stupider until the state you find it in now.
Its only going to get worse guys, because of your shitty "me first" rather than "we first" philosophies and government policies.
Unless you start putting education first, you're going to find yourselves turning into a 2nd world country.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795509</id>
	<title>interest rates and tuition</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255972920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As someone who actually works in higher education, i'd like to point out how little sense this article makes.</p><p>first off, your interest rate on about half of your loans should be subsidized stafford loans at a rate of 5-6.5\% (depending on when you signed up for them), which you don't have to pay a dime of interest on. second, why the hell didn't you consolidate *after* you took out all of the loans? i'm sick of people whining about not being able to consolidate a second time. i'm sorry you got suckered into thinking that two month payment break would help you in the long run instead of waiting until all of your loans have been disbursed and THEN consolidating everything.</p><p>if you are out of a job and struggling, there are a number of programs (income based repayment, as the prime example) that will adjust your monthly payments to a certain percentage of your adjusted gross income. Payments on this plan range from $0 to 15\% of your AGI - 150\% of the federal poverty line.  wait...that means...yeah, if you're unemployed you dont have to pay anything.</p><p>makes me feel a bit bad that your [insert expensive "good" school here] degree holds about as much influence as my [insert state school i attended with full scholarship] degree. wait, no it doesnt. you picked the school. you signed up for stupid amounts of loans, attended for 5 years living in the dorms, and didnt work worth a damn to even TRY to pay off a portion of your loan while you were in school.</p><p>maybe you shouldnt go to grad school if you dont have an job/income? no? make sense?</p><p>on a final note, my car has an interest rate that i signed up for too. and my house. and my credit card. i'm an idiot and want the gov't to pay for all of that because well...you know...they bailed out GM so they should bail out me too. i'm poor. wah. woe is me. i dont want to pay for the things i signed up for. wah.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone who actually works in higher education , i 'd like to point out how little sense this article makes.first off , your interest rate on about half of your loans should be subsidized stafford loans at a rate of 5-6.5 \ % ( depending on when you signed up for them ) , which you do n't have to pay a dime of interest on .
second , why the hell did n't you consolidate * after * you took out all of the loans ?
i 'm sick of people whining about not being able to consolidate a second time .
i 'm sorry you got suckered into thinking that two month payment break would help you in the long run instead of waiting until all of your loans have been disbursed and THEN consolidating everything.if you are out of a job and struggling , there are a number of programs ( income based repayment , as the prime example ) that will adjust your monthly payments to a certain percentage of your adjusted gross income .
Payments on this plan range from $ 0 to 15 \ % of your AGI - 150 \ % of the federal poverty line .
wait...that means...yeah , if you 're unemployed you dont have to pay anything.makes me feel a bit bad that your [ insert expensive " good " school here ] degree holds about as much influence as my [ insert state school i attended with full scholarship ] degree .
wait , no it doesnt .
you picked the school .
you signed up for stupid amounts of loans , attended for 5 years living in the dorms , and didnt work worth a damn to even TRY to pay off a portion of your loan while you were in school.maybe you shouldnt go to grad school if you dont have an job/income ?
no ? make sense ? on a final note , my car has an interest rate that i signed up for too .
and my house .
and my credit card .
i 'm an idiot and want the gov't to pay for all of that because well...you know...they bailed out GM so they should bail out me too .
i 'm poor .
wah. woe is me .
i dont want to pay for the things i signed up for .
wah .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone who actually works in higher education, i'd like to point out how little sense this article makes.first off, your interest rate on about half of your loans should be subsidized stafford loans at a rate of 5-6.5\% (depending on when you signed up for them), which you don't have to pay a dime of interest on.
second, why the hell didn't you consolidate *after* you took out all of the loans?
i'm sick of people whining about not being able to consolidate a second time.
i'm sorry you got suckered into thinking that two month payment break would help you in the long run instead of waiting until all of your loans have been disbursed and THEN consolidating everything.if you are out of a job and struggling, there are a number of programs (income based repayment, as the prime example) that will adjust your monthly payments to a certain percentage of your adjusted gross income.
Payments on this plan range from $0 to 15\% of your AGI - 150\% of the federal poverty line.
wait...that means...yeah, if you're unemployed you dont have to pay anything.makes me feel a bit bad that your [insert expensive "good" school here] degree holds about as much influence as my [insert state school i attended with full scholarship] degree.
wait, no it doesnt.
you picked the school.
you signed up for stupid amounts of loans, attended for 5 years living in the dorms, and didnt work worth a damn to even TRY to pay off a portion of your loan while you were in school.maybe you shouldnt go to grad school if you dont have an job/income?
no? make sense?on a final note, my car has an interest rate that i signed up for too.
and my house.
and my credit card.
i'm an idiot and want the gov't to pay for all of that because well...you know...they bailed out GM so they should bail out me too.
i'm poor.
wah. woe is me.
i dont want to pay for the things i signed up for.
wah.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791263</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>YourExperiment</author>
	<datestamp>1255945380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It seems that anyone under the age of 45 is trying to find out a way to blame someone else for decisions they made or didn't make.</p></div><p>There are many corporations way over the age of 45 that seem equally unwilling to take responsibility for their actions.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It seems that anyone under the age of 45 is trying to find out a way to blame someone else for decisions they made or did n't make.There are many corporations way over the age of 45 that seem equally unwilling to take responsibility for their actions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It seems that anyone under the age of 45 is trying to find out a way to blame someone else for decisions they made or didn't make.There are many corporations way over the age of 45 that seem equally unwilling to take responsibility for their actions.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789631</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789187</id>
	<title>Re:All mine were cheap!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255881720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>All my student debts are in Australia. The system here is a one off 10\% levy on student loans from the government then it gets taken out of your pay with your tax, after you reach a certain thresh-hold. Debts cease on death (a nice comforter if you've done a lot of study and don't want family saddled with debt.)</htmltext>
<tokenext>All my student debts are in Australia .
The system here is a one off 10 \ % levy on student loans from the government then it gets taken out of your pay with your tax , after you reach a certain thresh-hold .
Debts cease on death ( a nice comforter if you 've done a lot of study and do n't want family saddled with debt .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All my student debts are in Australia.
The system here is a one off 10\% levy on student loans from the government then it gets taken out of your pay with your tax, after you reach a certain thresh-hold.
Debts cease on death (a nice comforter if you've done a lot of study and don't want family saddled with debt.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789143</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795733</id>
	<title>Re:not the real problem</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1255973760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not letting them use loan money for housing, eating, or all the other shit that they use it for.  Student loans should go directly to tuition, NOTHING ELSE.  Theres the first way to keep your loans from being ridiculous.</p><p>When you live for 4 to 12 years on someone elses money, you're going to spend FAR longer paying back that money when all you would have had to do is get a damn job to start with and you could cut your loans in half easily, more in many cases.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not letting them use loan money for housing , eating , or all the other shit that they use it for .
Student loans should go directly to tuition , NOTHING ELSE .
Theres the first way to keep your loans from being ridiculous.When you live for 4 to 12 years on someone elses money , you 're going to spend FAR longer paying back that money when all you would have had to do is get a damn job to start with and you could cut your loans in half easily , more in many cases .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not letting them use loan money for housing, eating, or all the other shit that they use it for.
Student loans should go directly to tuition, NOTHING ELSE.
Theres the first way to keep your loans from being ridiculous.When you live for 4 to 12 years on someone elses money, you're going to spend FAR longer paying back that money when all you would have had to do is get a damn job to start with and you could cut your loans in half easily, more in many cases.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789297</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790879</id>
	<title>Re:Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>bradley13</author>
	<datestamp>1255895340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>It's outrageous that the people the government and banks should be supporting - those who spend nearly a decade earning an advanced education - are being fleeced left and right.</i> </p><p>Nice sense of entitlement there. Just why should the government support you? Being a student is great fun - I spent a lot of time as a student. That doesn't mean that I think anyone but me should have paid for it.

</p><p>Get a grant. Failing that, get a part-time job. If that doesn't work, go work a few years and then go back to school.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's outrageous that the people the government and banks should be supporting - those who spend nearly a decade earning an advanced education - are being fleeced left and right .
Nice sense of entitlement there .
Just why should the government support you ?
Being a student is great fun - I spent a lot of time as a student .
That does n't mean that I think anyone but me should have paid for it .
Get a grant .
Failing that , get a part-time job .
If that does n't work , go work a few years and then go back to school .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> It's outrageous that the people the government and banks should be supporting - those who spend nearly a decade earning an advanced education - are being fleeced left and right.
Nice sense of entitlement there.
Just why should the government support you?
Being a student is great fun - I spent a lot of time as a student.
That doesn't mean that I think anyone but me should have paid for it.
Get a grant.
Failing that, get a part-time job.
If that doesn't work, go work a few years and then go back to school.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789281</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29801237</id>
	<title>Re:Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>TheoMurpse</author>
	<datestamp>1255952340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Suggesting that a brilliant person defer grad school for a few years just wastes resources. After about age 30-45 (depending on field), it is said one can no longer contribute meaningfully to the field. Do you really want to shrink the span of time in which society could derive a monumental benefit from a person because of your opposition to grad students having it a bit easier?</p><p>Note that my argument is about societal benefit, not individual benefit.</p><p>Think what we would have had [bupkis] if Feynman had been in grad school an extra four years, what the physics community would have lost out on?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Suggesting that a brilliant person defer grad school for a few years just wastes resources .
After about age 30-45 ( depending on field ) , it is said one can no longer contribute meaningfully to the field .
Do you really want to shrink the span of time in which society could derive a monumental benefit from a person because of your opposition to grad students having it a bit easier ? Note that my argument is about societal benefit , not individual benefit.Think what we would have had [ bupkis ] if Feynman had been in grad school an extra four years , what the physics community would have lost out on ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Suggesting that a brilliant person defer grad school for a few years just wastes resources.
After about age 30-45 (depending on field), it is said one can no longer contribute meaningfully to the field.
Do you really want to shrink the span of time in which society could derive a monumental benefit from a person because of your opposition to grad students having it a bit easier?Note that my argument is about societal benefit, not individual benefit.Think what we would have had [bupkis] if Feynman had been in grad school an extra four years, what the physics community would have lost out on?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789637</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791321</id>
	<title>Re:High risk for lenders = high interest rates</title>
	<author>Kumiorava</author>
	<datestamp>1255946220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think this tiered approach on interest rates is the source of all evil. It increases the likelihood of default, allows more to be borrowed, and is based on faulty statistics with poor oversight. The credit rating comes from arbitrary past performance that someone thinks correlates with reality. Usually I don't believe in conspiracy theories, but credit rating system seems to be designed to make people drift between different credit ratings quite easily, to maximize interest rates on otherwise financially solvent people. Otherwise it shouldn't be possible to be able to have credit score of 600 and 750 during same year without any missed payments.</p><p>I have no idea how to replace this system, but to me it just seems silly how people are fixated in thinking that higher interest is somehow justified to compensate the imaginary credit unworthiness. How about just allowing smaller loans and more guarantees? If those are not enough then most likely that person needs to save some more.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think this tiered approach on interest rates is the source of all evil .
It increases the likelihood of default , allows more to be borrowed , and is based on faulty statistics with poor oversight .
The credit rating comes from arbitrary past performance that someone thinks correlates with reality .
Usually I do n't believe in conspiracy theories , but credit rating system seems to be designed to make people drift between different credit ratings quite easily , to maximize interest rates on otherwise financially solvent people .
Otherwise it should n't be possible to be able to have credit score of 600 and 750 during same year without any missed payments.I have no idea how to replace this system , but to me it just seems silly how people are fixated in thinking that higher interest is somehow justified to compensate the imaginary credit unworthiness .
How about just allowing smaller loans and more guarantees ?
If those are not enough then most likely that person needs to save some more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think this tiered approach on interest rates is the source of all evil.
It increases the likelihood of default, allows more to be borrowed, and is based on faulty statistics with poor oversight.
The credit rating comes from arbitrary past performance that someone thinks correlates with reality.
Usually I don't believe in conspiracy theories, but credit rating system seems to be designed to make people drift between different credit ratings quite easily, to maximize interest rates on otherwise financially solvent people.
Otherwise it shouldn't be possible to be able to have credit score of 600 and 750 during same year without any missed payments.I have no idea how to replace this system, but to me it just seems silly how people are fixated in thinking that higher interest is somehow justified to compensate the imaginary credit unworthiness.
How about just allowing smaller loans and more guarantees?
If those are not enough then most likely that person needs to save some more.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789287</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791747</id>
	<title>Get a job.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255951740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Get a job.</p><p>I paid my way through university after saving money from 12 yrs old on. No loans, no grants, no scholarships.  I worked 30 hours a week in fast food all during college. My parents paid for room and food only. See there were 5 other kids before me in college. Christmas wasn't $1000 of gifts in my house - rather, $50 worth of clothes that we needed and a toothbrush.</p><p>When I graduated, I had ZERO debt, no credit card, and an average GPA. I got a job and a few other offers. Someone with $80K in debt who also applied for those jobs doesn't deserve them, IMHO.</p><p>Get a job. Start flippin' burgers and stop complaining.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Get a job.I paid my way through university after saving money from 12 yrs old on .
No loans , no grants , no scholarships .
I worked 30 hours a week in fast food all during college .
My parents paid for room and food only .
See there were 5 other kids before me in college .
Christmas was n't $ 1000 of gifts in my house - rather , $ 50 worth of clothes that we needed and a toothbrush.When I graduated , I had ZERO debt , no credit card , and an average GPA .
I got a job and a few other offers .
Someone with $ 80K in debt who also applied for those jobs does n't deserve them , IMHO.Get a job .
Start flippin ' burgers and stop complaining .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get a job.I paid my way through university after saving money from 12 yrs old on.
No loans, no grants, no scholarships.
I worked 30 hours a week in fast food all during college.
My parents paid for room and food only.
See there were 5 other kids before me in college.
Christmas wasn't $1000 of gifts in my house - rather, $50 worth of clothes that we needed and a toothbrush.When I graduated, I had ZERO debt, no credit card, and an average GPA.
I got a job and a few other offers.
Someone with $80K in debt who also applied for those jobs doesn't deserve them, IMHO.Get a job.
Start flippin' burgers and stop complaining.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29799541</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>rogerz</author>
	<datestamp>1255944480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Calling it a 'right' kind of hides that fact.</p></div><p>That's an understatement.  The <i>point</i> of calling things which must be provided by others a "right", is to obliterate the concept of rights altogether.  A non-contradictory definition of "rights" must be one which imposes only negative obligation on other human beings.</p><p>I really like the rest of your comment, too.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Calling it a 'right ' kind of hides that fact.That 's an understatement .
The point of calling things which must be provided by others a " right " , is to obliterate the concept of rights altogether .
A non-contradictory definition of " rights " must be one which imposes only negative obligation on other human beings.I really like the rest of your comment , too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Calling it a 'right' kind of hides that fact.That's an understatement.
The point of calling things which must be provided by others a "right", is to obliterate the concept of rights altogether.
A non-contradictory definition of "rights" must be one which imposes only negative obligation on other human beings.I really like the rest of your comment, too.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790247</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792609</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>chrb</author>
	<datestamp>1255959840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p>Because proper education systems increase your wealth as well, the same as proper health systems benefit your health as well. Let me ask you this, would you rather have a nation full of highly educated white collar workers or a nation full of barely educated blue collar slobs barely able to swing a hammer?</p></div><p>Would you rather have a nation of workers or of parasites?</p></div><p>I think you just made the OP's point. "Highly educated white collar workers" are less likely to be claiming social security benefits. "Barely educated blue collar slobs" are more likely to claim benefits. Given that you live in a country where the rules are created through ordinary people voting, and the fact that the majority of people will want a social security net including free education, you won't be able to eliminate the social security system without abandoning democracy.</p><p>Universal free education is widely recognised as being ultimately beneficial for a nation, that's why all developed countries provide, in fact insist, that children attend schools. If it is so obvious to everyone that free education for children benefits society, then why should educating a young adult be a different situation?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Because proper education systems increase your wealth as well , the same as proper health systems benefit your health as well .
Let me ask you this , would you rather have a nation full of highly educated white collar workers or a nation full of barely educated blue collar slobs barely able to swing a hammer ? Would you rather have a nation of workers or of parasites ? I think you just made the OP 's point .
" Highly educated white collar workers " are less likely to be claiming social security benefits .
" Barely educated blue collar slobs " are more likely to claim benefits .
Given that you live in a country where the rules are created through ordinary people voting , and the fact that the majority of people will want a social security net including free education , you wo n't be able to eliminate the social security system without abandoning democracy.Universal free education is widely recognised as being ultimately beneficial for a nation , that 's why all developed countries provide , in fact insist , that children attend schools .
If it is so obvious to everyone that free education for children benefits society , then why should educating a young adult be a different situation ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because proper education systems increase your wealth as well, the same as proper health systems benefit your health as well.
Let me ask you this, would you rather have a nation full of highly educated white collar workers or a nation full of barely educated blue collar slobs barely able to swing a hammer?Would you rather have a nation of workers or of parasites?I think you just made the OP's point.
"Highly educated white collar workers" are less likely to be claiming social security benefits.
"Barely educated blue collar slobs" are more likely to claim benefits.
Given that you live in a country where the rules are created through ordinary people voting, and the fact that the majority of people will want a social security net including free education, you won't be able to eliminate the social security system without abandoning democracy.Universal free education is widely recognised as being ultimately beneficial for a nation, that's why all developed countries provide, in fact insist, that children attend schools.
If it is so obvious to everyone that free education for children benefits society, then why should educating a young adult be a different situation?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790959</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789623</id>
	<title>Medical School</title>
	<author>bretticus</author>
	<datestamp>1255884420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm up to about $100000 so far in my third year of medical school. As you can probably guess, I sure as hell won't be going into primary care. Sure there are ways to get it forgiven, but these are almost more trouble than they're worth. I voted for the Dems this time around, but it would sure be nice if they would help some of us out in these health care reform bills. I realize many would say we don't deserve the help given the salaries we'll (likely) be making, but you have to level the playing field somehow if you want the best and brightest to go into primary care.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm up to about $ 100000 so far in my third year of medical school .
As you can probably guess , I sure as hell wo n't be going into primary care .
Sure there are ways to get it forgiven , but these are almost more trouble than they 're worth .
I voted for the Dems this time around , but it would sure be nice if they would help some of us out in these health care reform bills .
I realize many would say we do n't deserve the help given the salaries we 'll ( likely ) be making , but you have to level the playing field somehow if you want the best and brightest to go into primary care .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm up to about $100000 so far in my third year of medical school.
As you can probably guess, I sure as hell won't be going into primary care.
Sure there are ways to get it forgiven, but these are almost more trouble than they're worth.
I voted for the Dems this time around, but it would sure be nice if they would help some of us out in these health care reform bills.
I realize many would say we don't deserve the help given the salaries we'll (likely) be making, but you have to level the playing field somehow if you want the best and brightest to go into primary care.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793581</id>
	<title>bah</title>
	<author>nomadic</author>
	<datestamp>1255964820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>What I think is criminal is how we can only deduct $2500 of our interest payments.</htmltext>
<tokenext>What I think is criminal is how we can only deduct $ 2500 of our interest payments .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What I think is criminal is how we can only deduct $2500 of our interest payments.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789697</id>
	<title>Re:Should have grown up in communist North Dakota</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255884960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Score 3: Interesting, for saying that Reaganomics caused the problem but not illustrating why.  At least your post exemplifies the problem of "lack of education."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Score 3 : Interesting , for saying that Reaganomics caused the problem but not illustrating why .
At least your post exemplifies the problem of " lack of education .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Score 3: Interesting, for saying that Reaganomics caused the problem but not illustrating why.
At least your post exemplifies the problem of "lack of education.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789435</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789425</id>
	<title>Nothing like starting life $100K in the hole</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255883280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>The government has bailed out homeowners. It's bailed out big businesses. Why can't it also help students?'</i>

</p><p>To me this is a tragedy.  Young people starting off almost $100K in the hole.  I had student loans, so did my wife.  Together they didn't add up to $40K and she went to grad school.

</p><p>On a higher level this kills entrepreneurial opportunities at the time in life you have the most desire, creativity and energy to launch a new business.  Many of you are stuck in low-paying, dead end jobs because of student loans...one of the reasons some companies like to hire right out of college.  Student loans and health insurance.  Wouldn't it be better to turn all that creativity loose developing new businesses and jobs?  But how can you saddled with all that debt and no health care coverage?

</p><p>We have to do something, not just for people in college now but those recently graduating into 9.5\% unemployment.  Whatever that is, it has to include cost controls on education.  The cost of education is running way ahead of inflation and textbook companies are worse than the mafia (at least the mob runs prostitutes).  This is crazy.

</p><p>But what to do about it?  If the government tried some kind of forgiveness program, Republicans would scream about budget deficits. Student loans are also a giant bank pork program and you can see what kind clout they have in Washington.  So, it's got to be paid for somehow, deficit neutral, combined with cost controls on education and everyone on both sides of the political pork barrel have to STFU long enough to get it done.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The government has bailed out homeowners .
It 's bailed out big businesses .
Why ca n't it also help students ?
' To me this is a tragedy .
Young people starting off almost $ 100K in the hole .
I had student loans , so did my wife .
Together they did n't add up to $ 40K and she went to grad school .
On a higher level this kills entrepreneurial opportunities at the time in life you have the most desire , creativity and energy to launch a new business .
Many of you are stuck in low-paying , dead end jobs because of student loans...one of the reasons some companies like to hire right out of college .
Student loans and health insurance .
Would n't it be better to turn all that creativity loose developing new businesses and jobs ?
But how can you saddled with all that debt and no health care coverage ?
We have to do something , not just for people in college now but those recently graduating into 9.5 \ % unemployment .
Whatever that is , it has to include cost controls on education .
The cost of education is running way ahead of inflation and textbook companies are worse than the mafia ( at least the mob runs prostitutes ) .
This is crazy .
But what to do about it ?
If the government tried some kind of forgiveness program , Republicans would scream about budget deficits .
Student loans are also a giant bank pork program and you can see what kind clout they have in Washington .
So , it 's got to be paid for somehow , deficit neutral , combined with cost controls on education and everyone on both sides of the political pork barrel have to STFU long enough to get it done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> The government has bailed out homeowners.
It's bailed out big businesses.
Why can't it also help students?
'

To me this is a tragedy.
Young people starting off almost $100K in the hole.
I had student loans, so did my wife.
Together they didn't add up to $40K and she went to grad school.
On a higher level this kills entrepreneurial opportunities at the time in life you have the most desire, creativity and energy to launch a new business.
Many of you are stuck in low-paying, dead end jobs because of student loans...one of the reasons some companies like to hire right out of college.
Student loans and health insurance.
Wouldn't it be better to turn all that creativity loose developing new businesses and jobs?
But how can you saddled with all that debt and no health care coverage?
We have to do something, not just for people in college now but those recently graduating into 9.5\% unemployment.
Whatever that is, it has to include cost controls on education.
The cost of education is running way ahead of inflation and textbook companies are worse than the mafia (at least the mob runs prostitutes).
This is crazy.
But what to do about it?
If the government tried some kind of forgiveness program, Republicans would scream about budget deficits.
Student loans are also a giant bank pork program and you can see what kind clout they have in Washington.
So, it's got to be paid for somehow, deficit neutral, combined with cost controls on education and everyone on both sides of the political pork barrel have to STFU long enough to get it done.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29796873</id>
	<title>Re:College student; Please help. Won't work for fo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255978260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Angry?  You just got a "free" education, dummy.  Sure, you have to pay the money back, but you didn't have to work and go to school intermittently for 10+ years hoping that you can finish your first degree before your credits are too old to apply. Your 401k/403b/457b/whatever will also have a 5-6 year head start, which will be amazing. </p></div><p>If there is a bright side it is that you didn't wind up a snide douchebag who can't understand that having a mountain of debt may prevent one from shoveling money into savings schemes, among other fairly obvious logical flaws in the above post.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Angry ?
You just got a " free " education , dummy .
Sure , you have to pay the money back , but you did n't have to work and go to school intermittently for 10 + years hoping that you can finish your first degree before your credits are too old to apply .
Your 401k/403b/457b/whatever will also have a 5-6 year head start , which will be amazing .
If there is a bright side it is that you did n't wind up a snide douchebag who ca n't understand that having a mountain of debt may prevent one from shoveling money into savings schemes , among other fairly obvious logical flaws in the above post .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Angry?
You just got a "free" education, dummy.
Sure, you have to pay the money back, but you didn't have to work and go to school intermittently for 10+ years hoping that you can finish your first degree before your credits are too old to apply.
Your 401k/403b/457b/whatever will also have a 5-6 year head start, which will be amazing.
If there is a bright side it is that you didn't wind up a snide douchebag who can't understand that having a mountain of debt may prevent one from shoveling money into savings schemes, among other fairly obvious logical flaws in the above post.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789469</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790593</id>
	<title>Re:Restating the problem</title>
	<author>khallow</author>
	<datestamp>1255892400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The problem is one of treating education as a business like any other.</p> </div><p>This statement makes me aware of the peculiar tautology of the definition of a problem. A lot of times, a problem is a problem only because someone thinks it's a problem. I believe the idea of "treating education as a business" is one of those.<br> <br>

Do we have examples of education being treated like a business? There are a few examples that I can think of (Pheonix Institute, Devry), but for the most part, universities aren't businesses. I often see the accusation used when a college does something particularly incompetent and expensive. Perhaps a large, dying business would allow that. That's what bankruptcy court is for. But most businesses aren't that incompetent.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>As it happens, my wife paid off her student loans (for a JD/MBA) this evening (well, they'll settle on Tuesday). For the cost she just paid, we could buy a small house in the UK. The only debt higher is our mortgage, and living in a nice house in a nice part of the Bay area, that's expected.</p> </div><p>I've been a student for almost 17 years. Yes, that's way, way too long. Guess how much debt I racked up? $4000 dollars for a single year of graduate school while I was getting my master's degree and currently about $800 on a single credit card. I'm not wealthy, but I didn't fall into the borrowing trap that snared your wife.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Oh how things have changed. I no longer think of the USA as being the gold-standard of higher education. Now I think of it as being just a way of transferring money from rich people to educated people.</p></div><p>Or more accurately transferring wealth from educated people and taxpayers to academia and the people who handle their money.<br> <br>

My view of why the price of education is high is pretty simple, government subsidizes it greatly with cheap loans and financial assistance. I groan whenever I hear someone boast that they'll put more money in education. That just makes the problem worse!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is one of treating education as a business like any other .
This statement makes me aware of the peculiar tautology of the definition of a problem .
A lot of times , a problem is a problem only because someone thinks it 's a problem .
I believe the idea of " treating education as a business " is one of those .
Do we have examples of education being treated like a business ?
There are a few examples that I can think of ( Pheonix Institute , Devry ) , but for the most part , universities are n't businesses .
I often see the accusation used when a college does something particularly incompetent and expensive .
Perhaps a large , dying business would allow that .
That 's what bankruptcy court is for .
But most businesses are n't that incompetent.As it happens , my wife paid off her student loans ( for a JD/MBA ) this evening ( well , they 'll settle on Tuesday ) .
For the cost she just paid , we could buy a small house in the UK .
The only debt higher is our mortgage , and living in a nice house in a nice part of the Bay area , that 's expected .
I 've been a student for almost 17 years .
Yes , that 's way , way too long .
Guess how much debt I racked up ?
$ 4000 dollars for a single year of graduate school while I was getting my master 's degree and currently about $ 800 on a single credit card .
I 'm not wealthy , but I did n't fall into the borrowing trap that snared your wife.Oh how things have changed .
I no longer think of the USA as being the gold-standard of higher education .
Now I think of it as being just a way of transferring money from rich people to educated people.Or more accurately transferring wealth from educated people and taxpayers to academia and the people who handle their money .
My view of why the price of education is high is pretty simple , government subsidizes it greatly with cheap loans and financial assistance .
I groan whenever I hear someone boast that they 'll put more money in education .
That just makes the problem worse !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is one of treating education as a business like any other.
This statement makes me aware of the peculiar tautology of the definition of a problem.
A lot of times, a problem is a problem only because someone thinks it's a problem.
I believe the idea of "treating education as a business" is one of those.
Do we have examples of education being treated like a business?
There are a few examples that I can think of (Pheonix Institute, Devry), but for the most part, universities aren't businesses.
I often see the accusation used when a college does something particularly incompetent and expensive.
Perhaps a large, dying business would allow that.
That's what bankruptcy court is for.
But most businesses aren't that incompetent.As it happens, my wife paid off her student loans (for a JD/MBA) this evening (well, they'll settle on Tuesday).
For the cost she just paid, we could buy a small house in the UK.
The only debt higher is our mortgage, and living in a nice house in a nice part of the Bay area, that's expected.
I've been a student for almost 17 years.
Yes, that's way, way too long.
Guess how much debt I racked up?
$4000 dollars for a single year of graduate school while I was getting my master's degree and currently about $800 on a single credit card.
I'm not wealthy, but I didn't fall into the borrowing trap that snared your wife.Oh how things have changed.
I no longer think of the USA as being the gold-standard of higher education.
Now I think of it as being just a way of transferring money from rich people to educated people.Or more accurately transferring wealth from educated people and taxpayers to academia and the people who handle their money.
My view of why the price of education is high is pretty simple, government subsidizes it greatly with cheap loans and financial assistance.
I groan whenever I hear someone boast that they'll put more money in education.
That just makes the problem worse!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789305</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29801185</id>
	<title>Re:Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>mrsteele</author>
	<datestamp>1255952040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are only a handful of public undergrad universities charging that much. On the one hand, i don't blame you for going for the best education you can get, but on the other hand I know there were cheaper options.</p><p>Also, I in no way doubt you, but I'm not sure I understand how your loans are continuing to accrue interest while you are a student. I've never know a single person in grad school to be in that position, and I've known people in grad school with a ton of debt. Do you have an unusual situation?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are only a handful of public undergrad universities charging that much .
On the one hand , i do n't blame you for going for the best education you can get , but on the other hand I know there were cheaper options.Also , I in no way doubt you , but I 'm not sure I understand how your loans are continuing to accrue interest while you are a student .
I 've never know a single person in grad school to be in that position , and I 've known people in grad school with a ton of debt .
Do you have an unusual situation ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are only a handful of public undergrad universities charging that much.
On the one hand, i don't blame you for going for the best education you can get, but on the other hand I know there were cheaper options.Also, I in no way doubt you, but I'm not sure I understand how your loans are continuing to accrue interest while you are a student.
I've never know a single person in grad school to be in that position, and I've known people in grad school with a ton of debt.
Do you have an unusual situation?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789281</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791739</id>
	<title>Re:College student; Please help. Won't work for fo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255951620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Angry? You just got a "free" education, dummy. Sure, you have to pay the money back,</p></div><p>HAHAHAhahaha, you can be jealous of me. I got completely free undergraduate education from my government. It also gave me a PhD scholarship to travel to any place in the world (I decided to go to the UK) and I do not have to pay a cent if I do not want.</p><p>What will I do? I will go back to Mexico to transfer my knowledge to other students in my country. That is the payment they look.</p><p>Government investment in education means that they await for a "payment" in better educated individuals. If what you have to return is money (in addition to the high interest rates) then they are seeing you just as a money producing machine.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Angry ?
You just got a " free " education , dummy .
Sure , you have to pay the money back,HAHAHAhahaha , you can be jealous of me .
I got completely free undergraduate education from my government .
It also gave me a PhD scholarship to travel to any place in the world ( I decided to go to the UK ) and I do not have to pay a cent if I do not want.What will I do ?
I will go back to Mexico to transfer my knowledge to other students in my country .
That is the payment they look.Government investment in education means that they await for a " payment " in better educated individuals .
If what you have to return is money ( in addition to the high interest rates ) then they are seeing you just as a money producing machine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Angry?
You just got a "free" education, dummy.
Sure, you have to pay the money back,HAHAHAhahaha, you can be jealous of me.
I got completely free undergraduate education from my government.
It also gave me a PhD scholarship to travel to any place in the world (I decided to go to the UK) and I do not have to pay a cent if I do not want.What will I do?
I will go back to Mexico to transfer my knowledge to other students in my country.
That is the payment they look.Government investment in education means that they await for a "payment" in better educated individuals.
If what you have to return is money (in addition to the high interest rates) then they are seeing you just as a money producing machine.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789469</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793047</id>
	<title>Re:What do you expect?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255962420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well said.  Cheap money (low interest rates) just enables schools to raise costs at unsustainable levels.  The fact that little Johnny decided to go $300k into debt for his $50k a year job is his choice and no one else should be forced to subsidize that choice</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well said .
Cheap money ( low interest rates ) just enables schools to raise costs at unsustainable levels .
The fact that little Johnny decided to go $ 300k into debt for his $ 50k a year job is his choice and no one else should be forced to subsidize that choice</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well said.
Cheap money (low interest rates) just enables schools to raise costs at unsustainable levels.
The fact that little Johnny decided to go $300k into debt for his $50k a year job is his choice and no one else should be forced to subsidize that choice</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789713</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792799</id>
	<title>Re:What do you expect?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255961040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sorry but the end paragraph is frankly nonsense . Imagine what would it do for the state if 75\% of scientists and engineers (who do not come from milionaire backgrounds) decided that college is not worth the effort (payment of loans) and being a programmer/electrician/plumber/repairman etc is kinda fun anyway.<br>The research and so would slowly go to dump , and the only people attending those high class unis would be foreigners, whose state pays the money. USA would go to the dumpster faster than you would imagine</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry but the end paragraph is frankly nonsense .
Imagine what would it do for the state if 75 \ % of scientists and engineers ( who do not come from milionaire backgrounds ) decided that college is not worth the effort ( payment of loans ) and being a programmer/electrician/plumber/repairman etc is kinda fun anyway.The research and so would slowly go to dump , and the only people attending those high class unis would be foreigners , whose state pays the money .
USA would go to the dumpster faster than you would imagine</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry but the end paragraph is frankly nonsense .
Imagine what would it do for the state if 75\% of scientists and engineers (who do not come from milionaire backgrounds) decided that college is not worth the effort (payment of loans) and being a programmer/electrician/plumber/repairman etc is kinda fun anyway.The research and so would slowly go to dump , and the only people attending those high class unis would be foreigners, whose state pays the money.
USA would go to the dumpster faster than you would imagine</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789713</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792401</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>TheoMurpse</author>
	<datestamp>1255958400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There was a government mandated moratorium on foreclosures. So yes, in a manner of speaking the government did bail out homeowners.</p><p>Unless you're not a homeowner until you've paid off your mortgage (which I guess is technically true even if not conventionally true).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There was a government mandated moratorium on foreclosures .
So yes , in a manner of speaking the government did bail out homeowners.Unless you 're not a homeowner until you 've paid off your mortgage ( which I guess is technically true even if not conventionally true ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There was a government mandated moratorium on foreclosures.
So yes, in a manner of speaking the government did bail out homeowners.Unless you're not a homeowner until you've paid off your mortgage (which I guess is technically true even if not conventionally true).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789411</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792287</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>GravityStar</author>
	<datestamp>1255957260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Than the person or bank giving out the loan should refuse the loan, or advise the student-to-be against it. This is their job. Or it should be, anyway.</p><p>See the current credit crisis for examples on what happens when banks give out loans without verifying the ability to pay back.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Than the person or bank giving out the loan should refuse the loan , or advise the student-to-be against it .
This is their job .
Or it should be , anyway.See the current credit crisis for examples on what happens when banks give out loans without verifying the ability to pay back .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Than the person or bank giving out the loan should refuse the loan, or advise the student-to-be against it.
This is their job.
Or it should be, anyway.See the current credit crisis for examples on what happens when banks give out loans without verifying the ability to pay back.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789631</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789839</id>
	<title>sucks for recent grads</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255885980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I graduated in 2005. I consolidated my student loans with citibank as soon as the grace period was over. My current interest rate on the remaining balance is 1.87\%  Looks like I got out just in time<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I graduated in 2005 .
I consolidated my student loans with citibank as soon as the grace period was over .
My current interest rate on the remaining balance is 1.87 \ % Looks like I got out just in time : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I graduated in 2005.
I consolidated my student loans with citibank as soon as the grace period was over.
My current interest rate on the remaining balance is 1.87\%  Looks like I got out just in time :)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792089</id>
	<title>Re:Grad student with huge loans</title>
	<author>Totenglocke</author>
	<datestamp>1255955460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Two things:</p><p>1) Was this "public undergraduate institution" in your state or in another state?</p><p>2)  "the people the government and banks should be supporting" - the government should not be <b>supporting</b> anyone.  That's called "being a parasite".  It is your responsibility to succeed, no one else's.</p><p>Before you try to complain that I'm some rich person, I just graduated from college with $25k in loans and worked to pay the rest myself - I also didn't get a decent job until 6 months after I graduated (not a big surprise with this economy) and even then I'm the only hourly employee at my company and due to the economy, I haven't been working full time so I've had to live cheap to make sure I pay the bills.  However, I'm not going to whine and say that someone else should be forced to pay for me to have all the things I want.  I take responsibility for my life and my choices.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Two things : 1 ) Was this " public undergraduate institution " in your state or in another state ? 2 ) " the people the government and banks should be supporting " - the government should not be supporting anyone .
That 's called " being a parasite " .
It is your responsibility to succeed , no one else 's.Before you try to complain that I 'm some rich person , I just graduated from college with $ 25k in loans and worked to pay the rest myself - I also did n't get a decent job until 6 months after I graduated ( not a big surprise with this economy ) and even then I 'm the only hourly employee at my company and due to the economy , I have n't been working full time so I 've had to live cheap to make sure I pay the bills .
However , I 'm not going to whine and say that someone else should be forced to pay for me to have all the things I want .
I take responsibility for my life and my choices .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Two things:1) Was this "public undergraduate institution" in your state or in another state?2)  "the people the government and banks should be supporting" - the government should not be supporting anyone.
That's called "being a parasite".
It is your responsibility to succeed, no one else's.Before you try to complain that I'm some rich person, I just graduated from college with $25k in loans and worked to pay the rest myself - I also didn't get a decent job until 6 months after I graduated (not a big surprise with this economy) and even then I'm the only hourly employee at my company and due to the economy, I haven't been working full time so I've had to live cheap to make sure I pay the bills.
However, I'm not going to whine and say that someone else should be forced to pay for me to have all the things I want.
I take responsibility for my life and my choices.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789281</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789807</id>
	<title>Not accidental - education is vehicle for mobility</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255885740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Education is a vehicle for social mobility.<br>Currently in the USA social mobility is dead - in fact it has been reversed. Bigger and bigger wealth is concentrating in fewer hands as a longer term trend.<br>The wealthiest (lawmakers) simply don't want too much competition, too much highly educated population. Solution: making higher education virtually non-affordable for the masses.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Education is a vehicle for social mobility.Currently in the USA social mobility is dead - in fact it has been reversed .
Bigger and bigger wealth is concentrating in fewer hands as a longer term trend.The wealthiest ( lawmakers ) simply do n't want too much competition , too much highly educated population .
Solution : making higher education virtually non-affordable for the masses .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Education is a vehicle for social mobility.Currently in the USA social mobility is dead - in fact it has been reversed.
Bigger and bigger wealth is concentrating in fewer hands as a longer term trend.The wealthiest (lawmakers) simply don't want too much competition, too much highly educated population.
Solution: making higher education virtually non-affordable for the masses.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789571</id>
	<title>We've taught them well haven't we?</title>
	<author>rickb928</author>
	<datestamp>1255884120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"The government has bailed out homeowners. It's bailed out big businesses. Why can't it also help students?"</p><p>Why not, indeed?</p><p>Besides the fact that we have no money left, didn't before we started, and have been borrowing all of this, why not help the students?</p><p>Well, will someone else please tell them?  I'm tired of it.  Thanks.</p><p>ps - My wife and I paid off her student loans.  She had a higher interest rate.</p><p>pps - No one is bailing me out of my mortgage on my home which is worth about half what I paid for it in 2005.  I owe about \%60,000 more than it is worth right now.  My property taxes have not gone down a penny, cause everyone else around here is in the same boat.  I can't afford to go back to college right now... Loans or not.</p><p>ppps - We are not doing a great job of bailing out big business.  I work for one, and took a 15\% pay cut in April.  And I'm thankful to have my job still.  Graduates should be thankful if they get a job at all before 2011.</p><p>We're teaching them well.  Just the wrong lessons.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" The government has bailed out homeowners .
It 's bailed out big businesses .
Why ca n't it also help students ?
" Why not , indeed ? Besides the fact that we have no money left , did n't before we started , and have been borrowing all of this , why not help the students ? Well , will someone else please tell them ?
I 'm tired of it .
Thanks.ps - My wife and I paid off her student loans .
She had a higher interest rate.pps - No one is bailing me out of my mortgage on my home which is worth about half what I paid for it in 2005 .
I owe about \ % 60,000 more than it is worth right now .
My property taxes have not gone down a penny , cause everyone else around here is in the same boat .
I ca n't afford to go back to college right now... Loans or not.ppps - We are not doing a great job of bailing out big business .
I work for one , and took a 15 \ % pay cut in April .
And I 'm thankful to have my job still .
Graduates should be thankful if they get a job at all before 2011.We 're teaching them well .
Just the wrong lessons .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"The government has bailed out homeowners.
It's bailed out big businesses.
Why can't it also help students?
"Why not, indeed?Besides the fact that we have no money left, didn't before we started, and have been borrowing all of this, why not help the students?Well, will someone else please tell them?
I'm tired of it.
Thanks.ps - My wife and I paid off her student loans.
She had a higher interest rate.pps - No one is bailing me out of my mortgage on my home which is worth about half what I paid for it in 2005.
I owe about \%60,000 more than it is worth right now.
My property taxes have not gone down a penny, cause everyone else around here is in the same boat.
I can't afford to go back to college right now... Loans or not.ppps - We are not doing a great job of bailing out big business.
I work for one, and took a 15\% pay cut in April.
And I'm thankful to have my job still.
Graduates should be thankful if they get a job at all before 2011.We're teaching them well.
Just the wrong lessons.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29794599</id>
	<title>some oxymoron statements</title>
	<author>elnyka</author>
	<datestamp>1255969020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><ol>
<li>- If you are unemployed (or you are going through a period of duress<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.ie. medical problems, tragedies), you can negotiate a waiver of up to 12 months (IIRC) during which time you do not have to pay. Unsubsidized loans might still accrue interest, but that's better than defaulting or paying when you literally can't. Most of the time they don't really give you that much of a problem when asking for a few months break.</li><li>- The better your grades are, the best your chances are to get scholarship money. The more of that you get, the less you rely on student loans.</li><li>- A substantial chunk of student debt is due (at least from what I've personally witnessed) in great part on not knowing how to spend as opposed to actual education/living expenses.</li></ol><p>

I'm very surprised that the person in the article has such a high interest rate, though. Are those the interest rates now? I got my loans during the 90s. Mine were always less than 7\% (same with everybody I know that has student loans.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>- If you are unemployed ( or you are going through a period of duress .ie .
medical problems , tragedies ) , you can negotiate a waiver of up to 12 months ( IIRC ) during which time you do not have to pay .
Unsubsidized loans might still accrue interest , but that 's better than defaulting or paying when you literally ca n't .
Most of the time they do n't really give you that much of a problem when asking for a few months break.- The better your grades are , the best your chances are to get scholarship money .
The more of that you get , the less you rely on student loans.- A substantial chunk of student debt is due ( at least from what I 've personally witnessed ) in great part on not knowing how to spend as opposed to actual education/living expenses .
I 'm very surprised that the person in the article has such a high interest rate , though .
Are those the interest rates now ?
I got my loans during the 90s .
Mine were always less than 7 \ % ( same with everybody I know that has student loans .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
- If you are unemployed (or you are going through a period of duress .ie.
medical problems, tragedies), you can negotiate a waiver of up to 12 months (IIRC) during which time you do not have to pay.
Unsubsidized loans might still accrue interest, but that's better than defaulting or paying when you literally can't.
Most of the time they don't really give you that much of a problem when asking for a few months break.- The better your grades are, the best your chances are to get scholarship money.
The more of that you get, the less you rely on student loans.- A substantial chunk of student debt is due (at least from what I've personally witnessed) in great part on not knowing how to spend as opposed to actual education/living expenses.
I'm very surprised that the person in the article has such a high interest rate, though.
Are those the interest rates now?
I got my loans during the 90s.
Mine were always less than 7\% (same with everybody I know that has student loans.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790719</id>
	<title>Re:Education should be a national right and pride</title>
	<author>will\_die</author>
	<datestamp>1255893540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>States do provide free or mostly free schooling, ie community colleges.<br>
From the amount he owes he has skipped those and decided that something that costs alot more offered a longer term value. So why should that be free or cost almost nothing?</htmltext>
<tokenext>States do provide free or mostly free schooling , ie community colleges .
From the amount he owes he has skipped those and decided that something that costs alot more offered a longer term value .
So why should that be free or cost almost nothing ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>States do provide free or mostly free schooling, ie community colleges.
From the amount he owes he has skipped those and decided that something that costs alot more offered a longer term value.
So why should that be free or cost almost nothing?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790585</id>
	<title>Collateral and Risk</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255892280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Mortgages are secured. If you don't pay, the bank takes the property and sells it off to get their money back. How do you foreclose a college education?</p><p>#2, you need to be a good credit risk to get a mortgage. Student loans are given with much less regard to the ability to repay. the risk is higher, so the interest is higher. In effect, being responsible and paying your student loans means you're subsidizing those who can't pay theirs.</p><p>What to do? Get a job, and pay that sucker off ASAP. Don't make the minimum payments, pay as much as you can afford every month until the minkey is off your back. Yes, it will take a while. Get used to used cars and comparison shopping. It's galling how the universities jack up the tuition and fees because they know you can borrow the money, but you did sign on the dotted lines and now you gotta keep up your end of the raw deal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Mortgages are secured .
If you do n't pay , the bank takes the property and sells it off to get their money back .
How do you foreclose a college education ? # 2 , you need to be a good credit risk to get a mortgage .
Student loans are given with much less regard to the ability to repay .
the risk is higher , so the interest is higher .
In effect , being responsible and paying your student loans means you 're subsidizing those who ca n't pay theirs.What to do ?
Get a job , and pay that sucker off ASAP .
Do n't make the minimum payments , pay as much as you can afford every month until the minkey is off your back .
Yes , it will take a while .
Get used to used cars and comparison shopping .
It 's galling how the universities jack up the tuition and fees because they know you can borrow the money , but you did sign on the dotted lines and now you got ta keep up your end of the raw deal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mortgages are secured.
If you don't pay, the bank takes the property and sells it off to get their money back.
How do you foreclose a college education?#2, you need to be a good credit risk to get a mortgage.
Student loans are given with much less regard to the ability to repay.
the risk is higher, so the interest is higher.
In effect, being responsible and paying your student loans means you're subsidizing those who can't pay theirs.What to do?
Get a job, and pay that sucker off ASAP.
Don't make the minimum payments, pay as much as you can afford every month until the minkey is off your back.
Yes, it will take a while.
Get used to used cars and comparison shopping.
It's galling how the universities jack up the tuition and fees because they know you can borrow the money, but you did sign on the dotted lines and now you gotta keep up your end of the raw deal.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789951</id>
	<title>get rich without education</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255886760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you are a bit smart today, you don't go to college, you do what this 20 year old girl doing:</p><p>http://www.businessinsider.com/20-year-old-buys-home-with-183000-fha-loan-and-just-35-down-2009-10</p><p>"Denise Tejada bought a house last month at the age of 20, thanks in large part to a loan guaranteed by the Federal Housing Authority... The monthly payments on her debt amount to $1328. Her income is $2470, leaving her with just $285 a week to live on. She's paying 54\% of her income to make the mortgage payments. She earns that income by holding down one full time and two part time jobs."</p><p>This is real life education for the times when middle-class jobs are outsourced and disappearing. If she can pull this off, she is a business woman, who can recognize business opportunities, identify most beneficial government programs, etc. She bought the house at the crashed market, taking advantage of historically low interest rate and if she fails, she can simply discharge it in bankruptcy. She is playing the system to full advantage, without raking up debt for education on how to play the game.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you are a bit smart today , you do n't go to college , you do what this 20 year old girl doing : http : //www.businessinsider.com/20-year-old-buys-home-with-183000-fha-loan-and-just-35-down-2009-10 " Denise Tejada bought a house last month at the age of 20 , thanks in large part to a loan guaranteed by the Federal Housing Authority... The monthly payments on her debt amount to $ 1328 .
Her income is $ 2470 , leaving her with just $ 285 a week to live on .
She 's paying 54 \ % of her income to make the mortgage payments .
She earns that income by holding down one full time and two part time jobs .
" This is real life education for the times when middle-class jobs are outsourced and disappearing .
If she can pull this off , she is a business woman , who can recognize business opportunities , identify most beneficial government programs , etc .
She bought the house at the crashed market , taking advantage of historically low interest rate and if she fails , she can simply discharge it in bankruptcy .
She is playing the system to full advantage , without raking up debt for education on how to play the game .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you are a bit smart today, you don't go to college, you do what this 20 year old girl doing:http://www.businessinsider.com/20-year-old-buys-home-with-183000-fha-loan-and-just-35-down-2009-10"Denise Tejada bought a house last month at the age of 20, thanks in large part to a loan guaranteed by the Federal Housing Authority... The monthly payments on her debt amount to $1328.
Her income is $2470, leaving her with just $285 a week to live on.
She's paying 54\% of her income to make the mortgage payments.
She earns that income by holding down one full time and two part time jobs.
"This is real life education for the times when middle-class jobs are outsourced and disappearing.
If she can pull this off, she is a business woman, who can recognize business opportunities, identify most beneficial government programs, etc.
She bought the house at the crashed market, taking advantage of historically low interest rate and if she fails, she can simply discharge it in bankruptcy.
She is playing the system to full advantage, without raking up debt for education on how to play the game.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789821</id>
	<title>Re:Should have grown up in communist North Dakota</title>
	<author>ub3r n3u7r4l1st</author>
	<datestamp>1255885860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You should have grown up in communist North Korea.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You should have grown up in communist North Korea .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You should have grown up in communist North Korea.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789435</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793465</id>
	<title>Re:What do you expect?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255964280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I have friends who are teachers who decided that they needed to attend small, private New England colleges with tuition and expenses over 350\% more than my education. One of those friends and his wife makes $120k combined teaching, but after years of deferments owes over $300,000 a decade after graduation </i></p><p>Quite frankly, I don't want people who can't figure this out anywhere my kids, let alone teaching them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have friends who are teachers who decided that they needed to attend small , private New England colleges with tuition and expenses over 350 \ % more than my education .
One of those friends and his wife makes $ 120k combined teaching , but after years of deferments owes over $ 300,000 a decade after graduation Quite frankly , I do n't want people who ca n't figure this out anywhere my kids , let alone teaching them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have friends who are teachers who decided that they needed to attend small, private New England colleges with tuition and expenses over 350\% more than my education.
One of those friends and his wife makes $120k combined teaching, but after years of deferments owes over $300,000 a decade after graduation Quite frankly, I don't want people who can't figure this out anywhere my kids, let alone teaching them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789713</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789713</id>
	<title>What do you expect?</title>
	<author>duffbeer703</author>
	<datestamp>1255885020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was the oldest child of a middle class family of 3. I applied to 2 public and 3 private universities and was accepted to all of them, but with minimal financial aid. I chose to attend a nearby public university that offered a quality education that cost approximately $10,000/year in the late 90's.</p><p>Why did I make this choice?</p><p>- I could afford to finance about 75\% of tuition via savings that my parents had set aside for me.<br>- I worked various jobs while in school, eventually hitting $15-17/hr, which more than covered the remaining tuition &amp; expenses.<br>- I didn't want to screw my siblings out of an education or force my parents into debt. In the end, I was able to leave about $4,000 of my parent's savings for my brother or sister.</p><p>I have friends who are teachers who decided that they needed to attend small, private New England colleges with tuition and expenses over 350\% more than my education. One of those friends and his wife makes $120k combined teaching, but after years of deferments owes over $300,000 a decade after graduation (not including graduate work form a private school which would have been FREE had they gone to the state university) -- my friend and his wife can barely afford rent, and will likely become homeowners when they inherit a house when one of their parents pass.</p><p>People don't need bailouts, they need to live within their means and not assume that they are entitled to a specific lifestyle or type of job due to the circumstances of their birth. If you can't afford four years of college, borrow money to go to trade school and work as a plumber, HVAC, electrician, etc. If you really want to go to college, you'll be able to earn the money to do so.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was the oldest child of a middle class family of 3 .
I applied to 2 public and 3 private universities and was accepted to all of them , but with minimal financial aid .
I chose to attend a nearby public university that offered a quality education that cost approximately $ 10,000/year in the late 90 's.Why did I make this choice ? - I could afford to finance about 75 \ % of tuition via savings that my parents had set aside for me.- I worked various jobs while in school , eventually hitting $ 15-17/hr , which more than covered the remaining tuition &amp; expenses.- I did n't want to screw my siblings out of an education or force my parents into debt .
In the end , I was able to leave about $ 4,000 of my parent 's savings for my brother or sister.I have friends who are teachers who decided that they needed to attend small , private New England colleges with tuition and expenses over 350 \ % more than my education .
One of those friends and his wife makes $ 120k combined teaching , but after years of deferments owes over $ 300,000 a decade after graduation ( not including graduate work form a private school which would have been FREE had they gone to the state university ) -- my friend and his wife can barely afford rent , and will likely become homeowners when they inherit a house when one of their parents pass.People do n't need bailouts , they need to live within their means and not assume that they are entitled to a specific lifestyle or type of job due to the circumstances of their birth .
If you ca n't afford four years of college , borrow money to go to trade school and work as a plumber , HVAC , electrician , etc .
If you really want to go to college , you 'll be able to earn the money to do so .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was the oldest child of a middle class family of 3.
I applied to 2 public and 3 private universities and was accepted to all of them, but with minimal financial aid.
I chose to attend a nearby public university that offered a quality education that cost approximately $10,000/year in the late 90's.Why did I make this choice?- I could afford to finance about 75\% of tuition via savings that my parents had set aside for me.- I worked various jobs while in school, eventually hitting $15-17/hr, which more than covered the remaining tuition &amp; expenses.- I didn't want to screw my siblings out of an education or force my parents into debt.
In the end, I was able to leave about $4,000 of my parent's savings for my brother or sister.I have friends who are teachers who decided that they needed to attend small, private New England colleges with tuition and expenses over 350\% more than my education.
One of those friends and his wife makes $120k combined teaching, but after years of deferments owes over $300,000 a decade after graduation (not including graduate work form a private school which would have been FREE had they gone to the state university) -- my friend and his wife can barely afford rent, and will likely become homeowners when they inherit a house when one of their parents pass.People don't need bailouts, they need to live within their means and not assume that they are entitled to a specific lifestyle or type of job due to the circumstances of their birth.
If you can't afford four years of college, borrow money to go to trade school and work as a plumber, HVAC, electrician, etc.
If you really want to go to college, you'll be able to earn the money to do so.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29807323</id>
	<title>But this is a false dichotomy</title>
	<author>Xcott Craver</author>
	<datestamp>1256050620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Billy doesn't have the choice between (a) saving up or (b) financing the whole dang thing with loans.
</p><p>
Most of us will (c) take out loans to pay for part of college, and cover the rest by working before and throughout college, including summer internships; by choosing an affordable school, rather than one that costs over 20K/year; by making choices like not living in a dorm for all four years; and by not paying for graduate school out of your own pocket (it is rarely economical to do so.)  I did these things, and ultimately got as far as a Ph.D. with a total loan burden on the order of 20K.</p><p>
As I said, it seems like a cultural problem:  people don't seem to understand that they can and must do these things if they are broke.  Instead they think their only choice is a massive loan sufficient to finance an entire four-year degree.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Billy does n't have the choice between ( a ) saving up or ( b ) financing the whole dang thing with loans .
Most of us will ( c ) take out loans to pay for part of college , and cover the rest by working before and throughout college , including summer internships ; by choosing an affordable school , rather than one that costs over 20K/year ; by making choices like not living in a dorm for all four years ; and by not paying for graduate school out of your own pocket ( it is rarely economical to do so .
) I did these things , and ultimately got as far as a Ph.D. with a total loan burden on the order of 20K .
As I said , it seems like a cultural problem : people do n't seem to understand that they can and must do these things if they are broke .
Instead they think their only choice is a massive loan sufficient to finance an entire four-year degree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Billy doesn't have the choice between (a) saving up or (b) financing the whole dang thing with loans.
Most of us will (c) take out loans to pay for part of college, and cover the rest by working before and throughout college, including summer internships; by choosing an affordable school, rather than one that costs over 20K/year; by making choices like not living in a dorm for all four years; and by not paying for graduate school out of your own pocket (it is rarely economical to do so.
)  I did these things, and ultimately got as far as a Ph.D. with a total loan burden on the order of 20K.
As I said, it seems like a cultural problem:  people don't seem to understand that they can and must do these things if they are broke.
Instead they think their only choice is a massive loan sufficient to finance an entire four-year degree.
</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792523</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792121</id>
	<title>Re:Reform is needed.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255955760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>No, it does not need to be affordable to the middle/low class.  It needs to be accessible either by some sort of aid or sponsorships, but not necessarily by cost on the  yearly fee sheet.  That way you can go to college if you're the son of a drunkard in the middle of Imabouttogetshot, USA.
<br> <br>
The idea is that not everyone will go to college.  Some will go to trade schools or get an apprenticeship.  The key then is to make college accessible to those who have the drive and motivation to succeed, regardless of class.  The upper class will have the money to fund it regardless, the middle class needs subsidies, and the lower income bracket needs close to a free ride.  Necessarily in this system not everyone gets to go to college.  This means there will be more competition between individuals during school meaning more people striving to succeed and learn.  If you want to sit on your ass then go through the program and get funneled somewhere else.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No , it does not need to be affordable to the middle/low class .
It needs to be accessible either by some sort of aid or sponsorships , but not necessarily by cost on the yearly fee sheet .
That way you can go to college if you 're the son of a drunkard in the middle of Imabouttogetshot , USA .
The idea is that not everyone will go to college .
Some will go to trade schools or get an apprenticeship .
The key then is to make college accessible to those who have the drive and motivation to succeed , regardless of class .
The upper class will have the money to fund it regardless , the middle class needs subsidies , and the lower income bracket needs close to a free ride .
Necessarily in this system not everyone gets to go to college .
This means there will be more competition between individuals during school meaning more people striving to succeed and learn .
If you want to sit on your ass then go through the program and get funneled somewhere else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, it does not need to be affordable to the middle/low class.
It needs to be accessible either by some sort of aid or sponsorships, but not necessarily by cost on the  yearly fee sheet.
That way you can go to college if you're the son of a drunkard in the middle of Imabouttogetshot, USA.
The idea is that not everyone will go to college.
Some will go to trade schools or get an apprenticeship.
The key then is to make college accessible to those who have the drive and motivation to succeed, regardless of class.
The upper class will have the money to fund it regardless, the middle class needs subsidies, and the lower income bracket needs close to a free ride.
Necessarily in this system not everyone gets to go to college.
This means there will be more competition between individuals during school meaning more people striving to succeed and learn.
If you want to sit on your ass then go through the program and get funneled somewhere else.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789407</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795857</id>
	<title>Re:Agreed</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1255974240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I'll be graduating next summer with a Masters in IT Management. (Undergrad in Simulation Design Engineering)<br>75k or so in loans, and the year I went to college they jacked up the interest rate to 6.8\%.</p></div></blockquote><p>Ironically, you could have spent that same time working in the field, moving up towards being an IT manager and<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... on top of it all, you'd have a clue about what you were doing rather than being just another idiot who graduated with no experience and an 'education' by people who don't actually do the job and probably never have.</p><p>Government loans are backed by ME and MY tax dollars that I'm paying for YOU to borrow.  You will damn sure pay your interest to contribute back to the system.  Its not free money, the working people of the world provide it to help you get started, not to give you a free ride.  You got something out of it and now you don't want to contribute back.</p><p>You don't want to pay interest?  I don't want to pay the taxes that help your ungrateful ass go to school, but I do it, so my kids have the same benefit.</p><p>Now shut your spoiled ass up, get a job, and pay your damn bills.  You need a good spanking like a 3 year old until you start acting like an adult.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll be graduating next summer with a Masters in IT Management .
( Undergrad in Simulation Design Engineering ) 75k or so in loans , and the year I went to college they jacked up the interest rate to 6.8 \ % .Ironically , you could have spent that same time working in the field , moving up towards being an IT manager and ... on top of it all , you 'd have a clue about what you were doing rather than being just another idiot who graduated with no experience and an 'education ' by people who do n't actually do the job and probably never have.Government loans are backed by ME and MY tax dollars that I 'm paying for YOU to borrow .
You will damn sure pay your interest to contribute back to the system .
Its not free money , the working people of the world provide it to help you get started , not to give you a free ride .
You got something out of it and now you do n't want to contribute back.You do n't want to pay interest ?
I do n't want to pay the taxes that help your ungrateful ass go to school , but I do it , so my kids have the same benefit.Now shut your spoiled ass up , get a job , and pay your damn bills .
You need a good spanking like a 3 year old until you start acting like an adult .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll be graduating next summer with a Masters in IT Management.
(Undergrad in Simulation Design Engineering)75k or so in loans, and the year I went to college they jacked up the interest rate to 6.8\%.Ironically, you could have spent that same time working in the field, moving up towards being an IT manager and ... on top of it all, you'd have a clue about what you were doing rather than being just another idiot who graduated with no experience and an 'education' by people who don't actually do the job and probably never have.Government loans are backed by ME and MY tax dollars that I'm paying for YOU to borrow.
You will damn sure pay your interest to contribute back to the system.
Its not free money, the working people of the world provide it to help you get started, not to give you a free ride.
You got something out of it and now you don't want to contribute back.You don't want to pay interest?
I don't want to pay the taxes that help your ungrateful ass go to school, but I do it, so my kids have the same benefit.Now shut your spoiled ass up, get a job, and pay your damn bills.
You need a good spanking like a 3 year old until you start acting like an adult.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789357</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790179</id>
	<title>Re:credit-unworthy or just greedy?</title>
	<author>joelgrimes</author>
	<datestamp>1255888440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Charging a higher interest rate for "credit-unworthy" people makes it more likely that they'll default, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.  This holds true for all borrowers.</p></div><p>That may be true at the level of the individual borrower, but the system of higher rates for lower quality credit evolved over time because it makes money for the lenders.  The higher resultant default rates are part of the calculation when they determine the interest rates.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Charging a higher interest rate for " credit-unworthy " people makes it more likely that they 'll default , making it a self-fulfilling prophecy .
This holds true for all borrowers.That may be true at the level of the individual borrower , but the system of higher rates for lower quality credit evolved over time because it makes money for the lenders .
The higher resultant default rates are part of the calculation when they determine the interest rates .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Charging a higher interest rate for "credit-unworthy" people makes it more likely that they'll default, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
This holds true for all borrowers.That may be true at the level of the individual borrower, but the system of higher rates for lower quality credit evolved over time because it makes money for the lenders.
The higher resultant default rates are part of the calculation when they determine the interest rates.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789285</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29792261</id>
	<title>If ONLY there was high interest student loans</title>
	<author>themusicgod1</author>
	<datestamp>1255957080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I would have loved a higher interest, deeper loan. I could have finished my degree 4 years ago instead of fucking around with trying to balance work &amp; school.  I wound up getting student loans for one year...and that year saved my broke ass from being expelled due to low marks(hard to get good grades when you work 80 hours a week).  Even if I wind up paying 9-10x the cost of my degree in interest it would still be worth it.  I didn't qualify first because my parents made too much money.  Then I qualified...but only for a year, the next year they decided that my paperwork wasn't good enough or something.  And I've been paying off not only my university, but my student loan ever since.  On the upside I'll be relatively debt free come graduation in a few months...but I've thrown away most of my best years on working shit jobs for nickles on the dollar of what some of my peers are making.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would have loved a higher interest , deeper loan .
I could have finished my degree 4 years ago instead of fucking around with trying to balance work &amp; school .
I wound up getting student loans for one year...and that year saved my broke ass from being expelled due to low marks ( hard to get good grades when you work 80 hours a week ) .
Even if I wind up paying 9-10x the cost of my degree in interest it would still be worth it .
I did n't qualify first because my parents made too much money .
Then I qualified...but only for a year , the next year they decided that my paperwork was n't good enough or something .
And I 've been paying off not only my university , but my student loan ever since .
On the upside I 'll be relatively debt free come graduation in a few months...but I 've thrown away most of my best years on working shit jobs for nickles on the dollar of what some of my peers are making .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would have loved a higher interest, deeper loan.
I could have finished my degree 4 years ago instead of fucking around with trying to balance work &amp; school.
I wound up getting student loans for one year...and that year saved my broke ass from being expelled due to low marks(hard to get good grades when you work 80 hours a week).
Even if I wind up paying 9-10x the cost of my degree in interest it would still be worth it.
I didn't qualify first because my parents made too much money.
Then I qualified...but only for a year, the next year they decided that my paperwork wasn't good enough or something.
And I've been paying off not only my university, but my student loan ever since.
On the upside I'll be relatively debt free come graduation in a few months...but I've thrown away most of my best years on working shit jobs for nickles on the dollar of what some of my peers are making.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789911</id>
	<title>I'll remember to beat myself up in the morning</title>
	<author>poofmeisterp</author>
	<datestamp>1255886520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I suck at mathematics worse than most people do.  I can't graduate from college for that reason, let alone money.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...so let's do the math on those two things (tee hee).  I am sort of glad I didn't go to college.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I suck at mathematics worse than most people do .
I ca n't graduate from college for that reason , let alone money .
...so let 's do the math on those two things ( tee hee ) .
I am sort of glad I did n't go to college .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I suck at mathematics worse than most people do.
I can't graduate from college for that reason, let alone money.
...so let's do the math on those two things (tee hee).
I am sort of glad I didn't go to college.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793107</id>
	<title>Re:Agreed</title>
	<author>dvorakkeyboardrules</author>
	<datestamp>1255962600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If there is no mechanism for the lender to be compensated in the eventuality of the borrower defaulting, the loan is unsecured.</p></div><p>By your definition, credit cards aren't unsecured loans.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If there is no mechanism for the lender to be compensated in the eventuality of the borrower defaulting , the loan is unsecured.By your definition , credit cards are n't unsecured loans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If there is no mechanism for the lender to be compensated in the eventuality of the borrower defaulting, the loan is unsecured.By your definition, credit cards aren't unsecured loans.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789949</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795999</id>
	<title>Re:Pissed at the bail-outs</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1255974900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It gets better.  Most of the money 'spent on the war' would have been spent ANYWAY.  Just because troops aren't fighting doesn't mean they don't get paid, don't have to eat, don't train, don't use fuel and munitions for training.</p><p>These 'wars' are hardly above what we'd be doing anyway if the troops were at home base!  WWII was a war, these (to our military) are basically training skirmishes with no punches pulled and live ammo being shot at you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It gets better .
Most of the money 'spent on the war ' would have been spent ANYWAY .
Just because troops are n't fighting does n't mean they do n't get paid , do n't have to eat , do n't train , do n't use fuel and munitions for training.These 'wars ' are hardly above what we 'd be doing anyway if the troops were at home base !
WWII was a war , these ( to our military ) are basically training skirmishes with no punches pulled and live ammo being shot at you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It gets better.
Most of the money 'spent on the war' would have been spent ANYWAY.
Just because troops aren't fighting doesn't mean they don't get paid, don't have to eat, don't train, don't use fuel and munitions for training.These 'wars' are hardly above what we'd be doing anyway if the troops were at home base!
WWII was a war, these (to our military) are basically training skirmishes with no punches pulled and live ammo being shot at you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793123</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29793351</id>
	<title>I agree a little too much...</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1255963800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have a student loan, that the government seems to think that I should be exempt from being able to declare bankruptcy when big companies that already had all the incentives, and bonuses and bla,bla,bla, can turn around and star fresh the next day, after declaring<br>bankruptcy and with a smile, tell you it's all legal, well here is something legal for you, although it stinks for 7 years after wards.</p><p>If your goal is to start fresh, then you can take out a line of credit equal to the amount of your student loan, once you have been in the work force for awhile, and have been making a lot of money, then turn around use that credit to pay your student loan, and now you student loan, being paid in full is no longer subject to regular student loan crap, as now your loan is a full fledged loan which you can then declare bankruptcy.</p><p>There are flags you need to side step, you need to have been working for awhile, you need to make sure you have built up credit on the side and never missed payments, and then when you get pre approved for stuff, use it then cancel it after a few usage, it shows as traffic, good traffic on your credit line....then once you get a pre approved line of credit, start using that, and then by never missing payments, you will be able to get more and more, once you get the amount close to what you owe, you can use it<br>to payoff your student loan, then declare bankruptcy before the bank has any wind of it.</p><p>This might not work if you haven't been up to date with payments, or not pre approved for lines of credit, as this happens only when banks trust you, so you have to eventually do some good before you can do some bad.<br>Sad, but true....</p><p>I don't recommend doing this for small loans of lets say up to 20 k, but a student loan like 80,000 is one I would work at like this for a while, and then go for that line of credit switch. Problem with this is for 7 years after that you have no credit,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...here. You can always go to Dubai and work there for 7 years, and then come back....lol</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a student loan , that the government seems to think that I should be exempt from being able to declare bankruptcy when big companies that already had all the incentives , and bonuses and bla,bla,bla , can turn around and star fresh the next day , after declaringbankruptcy and with a smile , tell you it 's all legal , well here is something legal for you , although it stinks for 7 years after wards.If your goal is to start fresh , then you can take out a line of credit equal to the amount of your student loan , once you have been in the work force for awhile , and have been making a lot of money , then turn around use that credit to pay your student loan , and now you student loan , being paid in full is no longer subject to regular student loan crap , as now your loan is a full fledged loan which you can then declare bankruptcy.There are flags you need to side step , you need to have been working for awhile , you need to make sure you have built up credit on the side and never missed payments , and then when you get pre approved for stuff , use it then cancel it after a few usage , it shows as traffic , good traffic on your credit line....then once you get a pre approved line of credit , start using that , and then by never missing payments , you will be able to get more and more , once you get the amount close to what you owe , you can use itto payoff your student loan , then declare bankruptcy before the bank has any wind of it.This might not work if you have n't been up to date with payments , or not pre approved for lines of credit , as this happens only when banks trust you , so you have to eventually do some good before you can do some bad.Sad , but true....I do n't recommend doing this for small loans of lets say up to 20 k , but a student loan like 80,000 is one I would work at like this for a while , and then go for that line of credit switch .
Problem with this is for 7 years after that you have no credit , ...here .
You can always go to Dubai and work there for 7 years , and then come back....lol</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a student loan, that the government seems to think that I should be exempt from being able to declare bankruptcy when big companies that already had all the incentives, and bonuses and bla,bla,bla, can turn around and star fresh the next day, after declaringbankruptcy and with a smile, tell you it's all legal, well here is something legal for you, although it stinks for 7 years after wards.If your goal is to start fresh, then you can take out a line of credit equal to the amount of your student loan, once you have been in the work force for awhile, and have been making a lot of money, then turn around use that credit to pay your student loan, and now you student loan, being paid in full is no longer subject to regular student loan crap, as now your loan is a full fledged loan which you can then declare bankruptcy.There are flags you need to side step, you need to have been working for awhile, you need to make sure you have built up credit on the side and never missed payments, and then when you get pre approved for stuff, use it then cancel it after a few usage, it shows as traffic, good traffic on your credit line....then once you get a pre approved line of credit, start using that, and then by never missing payments, you will be able to get more and more, once you get the amount close to what you owe, you can use itto payoff your student loan, then declare bankruptcy before the bank has any wind of it.This might not work if you haven't been up to date with payments, or not pre approved for lines of credit, as this happens only when banks trust you, so you have to eventually do some good before you can do some bad.Sad, but true....I don't recommend doing this for small loans of lets say up to 20 k, but a student loan like 80,000 is one I would work at like this for a while, and then go for that line of credit switch.
Problem with this is for 7 years after that you have no credit, ...here.
You can always go to Dubai and work there for 7 years, and then come back....lol</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790111</id>
	<title>Re:Tough Shit.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255887780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Universities do not posess some secret knowledge, it's all in the books and if you can read you can learn. Smart employers will ignore your lack of degree if instead you present a lot of experience. They know that most of what you learned in university is useless and better be forgotten.</p></div></blockquote><p>Awesome. I'll tell my wife that she doesn't really need to go to school to get her DVM (Doctor of Veterinary Medicine) - she just needs to read the books. I'm sure most vet clinics, and state licensing boards, will be willing to overlook her lack of degree from an accredited institution if she can present a lot of experience.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Universities do not posess some secret knowledge , it 's all in the books and if you can read you can learn .
Smart employers will ignore your lack of degree if instead you present a lot of experience .
They know that most of what you learned in university is useless and better be forgotten.Awesome .
I 'll tell my wife that she does n't really need to go to school to get her DVM ( Doctor of Veterinary Medicine ) - she just needs to read the books .
I 'm sure most vet clinics , and state licensing boards , will be willing to overlook her lack of degree from an accredited institution if she can present a lot of experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Universities do not posess some secret knowledge, it's all in the books and if you can read you can learn.
Smart employers will ignore your lack of degree if instead you present a lot of experience.
They know that most of what you learned in university is useless and better be forgotten.Awesome.
I'll tell my wife that she doesn't really need to go to school to get her DVM (Doctor of Veterinary Medicine) - she just needs to read the books.
I'm sure most vet clinics, and state licensing boards, will be willing to overlook her lack of degree from an accredited institution if she can present a lot of experience.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789597</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29795619</id>
	<title>Re:As a college student</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1255973340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Spoken like someone who cant think beyond their own pocket.</p></div></blockquote><p>Spoken like someone who wants to think with someone elses pocket.</p><p>Pay your own damn bills.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Spoken like someone who cant think beyond their own pocket.Spoken like someone who wants to think with someone elses pocket.Pay your own damn bills .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Spoken like someone who cant think beyond their own pocket.Spoken like someone who wants to think with someone elses pocket.Pay your own damn bills.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789255</id>
	<title>i'm confused?</title>
	<author>socsoc</author>
	<datestamp>1255882080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't understand how this is news for nerds?  I've paid off my student loan debt, but am being foreclosed on.  So I guess it is somewhat relevant, but it just seems like bitching.  Although I am confused what tax dectability means.  Wait, nevermind, it's a kdawson story, I'm no longer confused about made up words.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't understand how this is news for nerds ?
I 've paid off my student loan debt , but am being foreclosed on .
So I guess it is somewhat relevant , but it just seems like bitching .
Although I am confused what tax dectability means .
Wait , nevermind , it 's a kdawson story , I 'm no longer confused about made up words .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't understand how this is news for nerds?
I've paid off my student loan debt, but am being foreclosed on.
So I guess it is somewhat relevant, but it just seems like bitching.
Although I am confused what tax dectability means.
Wait, nevermind, it's a kdawson story, I'm no longer confused about made up words.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790003</id>
	<title>Re:Agreed</title>
	<author>jefftp</author>
	<datestamp>1255887060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A masters in IT Management? Trust me, kid. No one in IT Management needs a college degree to spew buzzwords, create/attend pointless meeting, ask stupid questions, and otherwise hinder IT Workers from doing real work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A masters in IT Management ?
Trust me , kid .
No one in IT Management needs a college degree to spew buzzwords , create/attend pointless meeting , ask stupid questions , and otherwise hinder IT Workers from doing real work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A masters in IT Management?
Trust me, kid.
No one in IT Management needs a college degree to spew buzzwords, create/attend pointless meeting, ask stupid questions, and otherwise hinder IT Workers from doing real work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789357</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29791945</id>
	<title>Supply and demand</title>
	<author>night\_flyer</author>
	<datestamp>1255953780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are too many people who shouldnt be in college, too many people in debt to a college that they shouldnt have gone too, which results in too many students defaulting on said loans. The higher the risk the higher the interest rate.</p><p>while education is a good thing, we have too many college grads who took "liberal arts", didnt learn anything (but have a nice piece of paper), and are working the drive thru at McDonalds.</p><p>We need to build up the vocational system, teach students useable skills (would help if they did some of that durring the K-12 years), which would make for a more productive workforce.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are too many people who shouldnt be in college , too many people in debt to a college that they shouldnt have gone too , which results in too many students defaulting on said loans .
The higher the risk the higher the interest rate.while education is a good thing , we have too many college grads who took " liberal arts " , didnt learn anything ( but have a nice piece of paper ) , and are working the drive thru at McDonalds.We need to build up the vocational system , teach students useable skills ( would help if they did some of that durring the K-12 years ) , which would make for a more productive workforce .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are too many people who shouldnt be in college, too many people in debt to a college that they shouldnt have gone too, which results in too many students defaulting on said loans.
The higher the risk the higher the interest rate.while education is a good thing, we have too many college grads who took "liberal arts", didnt learn anything (but have a nice piece of paper), and are working the drive thru at McDonalds.We need to build up the vocational system, teach students useable skills (would help if they did some of that durring the K-12 years), which would make for a more productive workforce.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29790673</id>
	<title>Re:Agreed</title>
	<author>DerekLyons</author>
	<datestamp>1255893000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>And to everyone saying its unsecured debt needs to actually look into their facts.</p></div></blockquote><p>What then are the secured by?<br>
&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp; </p><blockquote><div><p>I'll be graduating next summer with a Masters in IT Management. (Undergrad in Simulation Design Engineering)<br>75k or so in loans, and the year I went to college they jacked up the interest rate to 6.8\%.</p></div></blockquote><p>Based on your posting, I hope I (the taxpayer) didn't pay for your education.  If I did, I want my money back.  Your writing is atrocious, your grammar worse than mine, and you can't construct an argument properly.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And to everyone saying its unsecured debt needs to actually look into their facts.What then are the secured by ?
    I 'll be graduating next summer with a Masters in IT Management .
( Undergrad in Simulation Design Engineering ) 75k or so in loans , and the year I went to college they jacked up the interest rate to 6.8 \ % .Based on your posting , I hope I ( the taxpayer ) did n't pay for your education .
If I did , I want my money back .
Your writing is atrocious , your grammar worse than mine , and you ca n't construct an argument properly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And to everyone saying its unsecured debt needs to actually look into their facts.What then are the secured by?
  
  I'll be graduating next summer with a Masters in IT Management.
(Undergrad in Simulation Design Engineering)75k or so in loans, and the year I went to college they jacked up the interest rate to 6.8\%.Based on your posting, I hope I (the taxpayer) didn't pay for your education.
If I did, I want my money back.
Your writing is atrocious, your grammar worse than mine, and you can't construct an argument properly.
	</sentencetext>
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<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789469</id>
	<title>College student; Please help.  Won't work for food</title>
	<author>Culture20</author>
	<datestamp>1255883520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>'The rate for a 30-year mortgage is around 5\%,' Lee said. 'Why should anyone have to pay 8.5\%? The government has bailed out homeowners. It's bailed out big businesses. Why can't it also help students?'</p></div><p>Angry?  You just got a "free" education, dummy.  Sure, you have to pay the money back, but you didn't have to work and go to school intermittently for 10+ years hoping that you can finish your first degree before your credits are too old to apply.  Your 401k/403b/457b/whatever will also have a 5-6 year head start, which will be amazing.  College students from every previous generation have had a reputation for being poor.  The subject of this post is a joke from a while back.  Same as "Can you spare a dime?  Working my way through med school."</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>'The rate for a 30-year mortgage is around 5 \ % , ' Lee said .
'Why should anyone have to pay 8.5 \ % ?
The government has bailed out homeowners .
It 's bailed out big businesses .
Why ca n't it also help students ? 'Angry ?
You just got a " free " education , dummy .
Sure , you have to pay the money back , but you did n't have to work and go to school intermittently for 10 + years hoping that you can finish your first degree before your credits are too old to apply .
Your 401k/403b/457b/whatever will also have a 5-6 year head start , which will be amazing .
College students from every previous generation have had a reputation for being poor .
The subject of this post is a joke from a while back .
Same as " Can you spare a dime ?
Working my way through med school .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>'The rate for a 30-year mortgage is around 5\%,' Lee said.
'Why should anyone have to pay 8.5\%?
The government has bailed out homeowners.
It's bailed out big businesses.
Why can't it also help students?'Angry?
You just got a "free" education, dummy.
Sure, you have to pay the money back, but you didn't have to work and go to school intermittently for 10+ years hoping that you can finish your first degree before your credits are too old to apply.
Your 401k/403b/457b/whatever will also have a 5-6 year head start, which will be amazing.
College students from every previous generation have had a reputation for being poor.
The subject of this post is a joke from a while back.
Same as "Can you spare a dime?
Working my way through med school.
"
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29799625</id>
	<title>Re:Restating the problem</title>
	<author>TheSync</author>
	<datestamp>1255944780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I didn't pay for my education (although these days if you don't go to Scotland you pay something in the UK - it's a *lot* less than over here in the US though). I gave the UK about 10 years of higher taxes as a result - probably less than they were expecting</i></p><p>So you did pay for your education (at least part of it, before you left the country).  Nothing is "free", NHS and UK colleges are taxpayer funded, and if you are a college graduate you are likely to be paying more for your education through taxes than someone who didn't go to college would pay for your education due to progressive tax rates.</p><p>Obviously skipping the country is not sustainable, so if a lot of people start doing it, European countries with "free" college education may require minimum "dwell times" after graduation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I did n't pay for my education ( although these days if you do n't go to Scotland you pay something in the UK - it 's a * lot * less than over here in the US though ) .
I gave the UK about 10 years of higher taxes as a result - probably less than they were expectingSo you did pay for your education ( at least part of it , before you left the country ) .
Nothing is " free " , NHS and UK colleges are taxpayer funded , and if you are a college graduate you are likely to be paying more for your education through taxes than someone who did n't go to college would pay for your education due to progressive tax rates.Obviously skipping the country is not sustainable , so if a lot of people start doing it , European countries with " free " college education may require minimum " dwell times " after graduation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I didn't pay for my education (although these days if you don't go to Scotland you pay something in the UK - it's a *lot* less than over here in the US though).
I gave the UK about 10 years of higher taxes as a result - probably less than they were expectingSo you did pay for your education (at least part of it, before you left the country).
Nothing is "free", NHS and UK colleges are taxpayer funded, and if you are a college graduate you are likely to be paying more for your education through taxes than someone who didn't go to college would pay for your education due to progressive tax rates.Obviously skipping the country is not sustainable, so if a lot of people start doing it, European countries with "free" college education may require minimum "dwell times" after graduation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789305</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789903</id>
	<title>Fuck you bitch</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1255886460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Health care and Education should be all free so every individual can all focus on providing the best productivity they can offer to the society, without worrying about meeting ends!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Health care and Education should be all free so every individual can all focus on providing the best productivity they can offer to the society , without worrying about meeting ends !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Health care and Education should be all free so every individual can all focus on providing the best productivity they can offer to the society, without worrying about meeting ends!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_10_18_2356226.29789467</parent>
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