<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_06_23_191230</id>
	<title>Switching To Solar Power, One Year Later</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1245744360000</datestamp>
	<htmltext><a href="http://www.extremetech.com/" rel="nofollow">ThinSkin</a> writes <i>"Slashdot readers may recall Loyd Case's series of articles illustrating his experiences after switching to solar power for his family home. Loyd shared his <a href="http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/08/07/21/2310208/Switching-To-Solar-Power-ndash-One-Month-Later">one month update</a>, a <a href="//hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/14/1345258&amp;tid=232">six month update</a>, and now finally concludes his series after <a href="http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2349171,00.asp">one year of solar power</a>. Despite the $38,000 initial cost for the setup, Loyd is very optimistic after a $3,000 savings in one year, meaning that in about 12 years he will break even &mdash; though he suspects ten years is a better estimate considering other factors. Other reasons such as feeling 'green,' increasing the property value of his house, and the 'spousal acceptance factor' all support Loyd's decision on why he'd do it all over again if he had to."</i> The article is spread annoyingly over multiple pages, like everything at the site, and the <a href="http://www.extremetech.com/print\_article2/0,1217,a\%253D241621,00.asp">print version</a> omits the graphs.</htmltext>
<tokenext>ThinSkin writes " Slashdot readers may recall Loyd Case 's series of articles illustrating his experiences after switching to solar power for his family home .
Loyd shared his one month update , a six month update , and now finally concludes his series after one year of solar power .
Despite the $ 38,000 initial cost for the setup , Loyd is very optimistic after a $ 3,000 savings in one year , meaning that in about 12 years he will break even    though he suspects ten years is a better estimate considering other factors .
Other reasons such as feeling 'green, ' increasing the property value of his house , and the 'spousal acceptance factor ' all support Loyd 's decision on why he 'd do it all over again if he had to .
" The article is spread annoyingly over multiple pages , like everything at the site , and the print version omits the graphs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>ThinSkin writes "Slashdot readers may recall Loyd Case's series of articles illustrating his experiences after switching to solar power for his family home.
Loyd shared his one month update, a six month update, and now finally concludes his series after one year of solar power.
Despite the $38,000 initial cost for the setup, Loyd is very optimistic after a $3,000 savings in one year, meaning that in about 12 years he will break even — though he suspects ten years is a better estimate considering other factors.
Other reasons such as feeling 'green,' increasing the property value of his house, and the 'spousal acceptance factor' all support Loyd's decision on why he'd do it all over again if he had to.
" The article is spread annoyingly over multiple pages, like everything at the site, and the print version omits the graphs.</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443</id>
	<title>Re:Return on investment</title>
	<author>Gospodin</author>
	<datestamp>1245752040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The system wouldn't just lose $760/year in value, it would also lose 2\% in efficiency per year, which means that if he saved $3,000 the first year, he could expect to save only $2,940 the second, and so on (all else - electricity usage, cost of electricity, etc - being equal). The revenue stream then looks like this (over 10 years):</p><p>Year 0: Cost of $38400.</p><p>Year 1: Benefit of $3,000.</p><p>Year 2: Benefit of $2,940.</p><p>Year 3: Benefit of $2,880.</p><p>Year 4: Benefit of $2,820.</p><p>Year 5: Benefit of $2,760.</p><p>Year 6: Benefit of $2,700.</p><p>Year 7: Benefit of $2,640.</p><p>Year 8: Benefit of $2,580.</p><p>Year 9: Benefit of $2,520.</p><p>Year 10: Benefit of $2,460.</p><p>Value of system after 10 years: $30,400.</p><p>Plugging these numbers into the IRR formula gives you a 5.7\% return per year.</p><p>If we make a slightly different assumption that the decreased output is geometric (not arithmetic) and still use the idea that the depreciated value equals the original cost times the current efficiency, then you can show that D + R = 7.9\%, where D = depreciation rate and R = rate of return. So if you assume D = 2\%, then R = 5.9\%. But if D = 4\%, then R = 3.9\%, which is not great.</p><p>Doesn't sound to me like an obvious win for solar power. On the other hand, it's not an obvious money sink, either, so that's good. I'm sure things will continue to improve.</p><p>Would be interesting to see a subsidy-free comparison of both methods of electricity generation, but that's pretty hard. You can easily handle the consumer tax breaks, but how much do the producer's tax incentives affect the cost? And how much of his local coal/natural gas/hydro/nuclear generation is subsidized?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The system would n't just lose $ 760/year in value , it would also lose 2 \ % in efficiency per year , which means that if he saved $ 3,000 the first year , he could expect to save only $ 2,940 the second , and so on ( all else - electricity usage , cost of electricity , etc - being equal ) .
The revenue stream then looks like this ( over 10 years ) : Year 0 : Cost of $ 38400.Year 1 : Benefit of $ 3,000.Year 2 : Benefit of $ 2,940.Year 3 : Benefit of $ 2,880.Year 4 : Benefit of $ 2,820.Year 5 : Benefit of $ 2,760.Year 6 : Benefit of $ 2,700.Year 7 : Benefit of $ 2,640.Year 8 : Benefit of $ 2,580.Year 9 : Benefit of $ 2,520.Year 10 : Benefit of $ 2,460.Value of system after 10 years : $ 30,400.Plugging these numbers into the IRR formula gives you a 5.7 \ % return per year.If we make a slightly different assumption that the decreased output is geometric ( not arithmetic ) and still use the idea that the depreciated value equals the original cost times the current efficiency , then you can show that D + R = 7.9 \ % , where D = depreciation rate and R = rate of return .
So if you assume D = 2 \ % , then R = 5.9 \ % .
But if D = 4 \ % , then R = 3.9 \ % , which is not great.Does n't sound to me like an obvious win for solar power .
On the other hand , it 's not an obvious money sink , either , so that 's good .
I 'm sure things will continue to improve.Would be interesting to see a subsidy-free comparison of both methods of electricity generation , but that 's pretty hard .
You can easily handle the consumer tax breaks , but how much do the producer 's tax incentives affect the cost ?
And how much of his local coal/natural gas/hydro/nuclear generation is subsidized ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The system wouldn't just lose $760/year in value, it would also lose 2\% in efficiency per year, which means that if he saved $3,000 the first year, he could expect to save only $2,940 the second, and so on (all else - electricity usage, cost of electricity, etc - being equal).
The revenue stream then looks like this (over 10 years):Year 0: Cost of $38400.Year 1: Benefit of $3,000.Year 2: Benefit of $2,940.Year 3: Benefit of $2,880.Year 4: Benefit of $2,820.Year 5: Benefit of $2,760.Year 6: Benefit of $2,700.Year 7: Benefit of $2,640.Year 8: Benefit of $2,580.Year 9: Benefit of $2,520.Year 10: Benefit of $2,460.Value of system after 10 years: $30,400.Plugging these numbers into the IRR formula gives you a 5.7\% return per year.If we make a slightly different assumption that the decreased output is geometric (not arithmetic) and still use the idea that the depreciated value equals the original cost times the current efficiency, then you can show that D + R = 7.9\%, where D = depreciation rate and R = rate of return.
So if you assume D = 2\%, then R = 5.9\%.
But if D = 4\%, then R = 3.9\%, which is not great.Doesn't sound to me like an obvious win for solar power.
On the other hand, it's not an obvious money sink, either, so that's good.
I'm sure things will continue to improve.Would be interesting to see a subsidy-free comparison of both methods of electricity generation, but that's pretty hard.
You can easily handle the consumer tax breaks, but how much do the producer's tax incentives affect the cost?
And how much of his local coal/natural gas/hydro/nuclear generation is subsidized?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444737</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444933</id>
	<title>Cost of Equipment now</title>
	<author>jj00</author>
	<datestamp>1245750180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There always seems to be new breakthroughs in solar technology all the time.  I wonder how much the cost of his original equipment is going to go down over the new few years.  How much his original setup cost today?
<br> <br>
He is obviously an early adopter, so I also wonder if he'll continue to just upgrade his equipment before getting a return from his investment.  I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but the person who might best benefit from this experiment is his neighbor (assuming they get any old equipment).</htmltext>
<tokenext>There always seems to be new breakthroughs in solar technology all the time .
I wonder how much the cost of his original equipment is going to go down over the new few years .
How much his original setup cost today ?
He is obviously an early adopter , so I also wonder if he 'll continue to just upgrade his equipment before getting a return from his investment .
I 'm not saying that 's a bad thing , but the person who might best benefit from this experiment is his neighbor ( assuming they get any old equipment ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There always seems to be new breakthroughs in solar technology all the time.
I wonder how much the cost of his original equipment is going to go down over the new few years.
How much his original setup cost today?
He is obviously an early adopter, so I also wonder if he'll continue to just upgrade his equipment before getting a return from his investment.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but the person who might best benefit from this experiment is his neighbor (assuming they get any old equipment).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445005</id>
	<title>Going green takes some green.</title>
	<author>CHK6</author>
	<datestamp>1245750480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've looked into going more green and doing more green-like things. The #1 thing I found out is it takes a whole lot of money to go green and takes a lot of cash to do so. Sure my electric bills is high, but I can't convince a bank to loan me the cash to put in all solar power source on my house and then pay them back for 10 years. I spec'ed out solar and that was $30K and wind turbine would be $40K. I mean come on! These articles are great, but their either about how a) a starving art student at some liberal college gets donations to make a solar shed and live like an urban troll or B) some guy has the upfront means to cover the total costs.

While this is a great pat on the back for in part to a small percentage of a small minority of folks.

I hope a bird poops on your solar panel!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've looked into going more green and doing more green-like things .
The # 1 thing I found out is it takes a whole lot of money to go green and takes a lot of cash to do so .
Sure my electric bills is high , but I ca n't convince a bank to loan me the cash to put in all solar power source on my house and then pay them back for 10 years .
I spec'ed out solar and that was $ 30K and wind turbine would be $ 40K .
I mean come on !
These articles are great , but their either about how a ) a starving art student at some liberal college gets donations to make a solar shed and live like an urban troll or B ) some guy has the upfront means to cover the total costs .
While this is a great pat on the back for in part to a small percentage of a small minority of folks .
I hope a bird poops on your solar panel !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've looked into going more green and doing more green-like things.
The #1 thing I found out is it takes a whole lot of money to go green and takes a lot of cash to do so.
Sure my electric bills is high, but I can't convince a bank to loan me the cash to put in all solar power source on my house and then pay them back for 10 years.
I spec'ed out solar and that was $30K and wind turbine would be $40K.
I mean come on!
These articles are great, but their either about how a) a starving art student at some liberal college gets donations to make a solar shed and live like an urban troll or B) some guy has the upfront means to cover the total costs.
While this is a great pat on the back for in part to a small percentage of a small minority of folks.
I hope a bird poops on your solar panel!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445351</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>CodeBuster</author>
	<datestamp>1245751680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>One of the things that people constantly underestimate the price of is certainty.</p></div><p>or overestimate it as the case may be. It also is possible to calculate the amount of risk that he is "betting on" with future power prices. If the price of the solar installation is high enough, and $38,000 is a nice chunk of change, then it might still be the case that he overpaid to protect himself from the likely downside risks to future power prices (i.e. he overestimated the probability of future energy shocks pushing electricity prices to a high price per kw/h). People who talk about "time to pay back" (Prius owners are notorious for this type of cost ignorance) without talking about present value, opportunity costs, depreciation, and risk are probably not coming out ahead.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>One of the things that people constantly underestimate the price of is certainty.or overestimate it as the case may be .
It also is possible to calculate the amount of risk that he is " betting on " with future power prices .
If the price of the solar installation is high enough , and $ 38,000 is a nice chunk of change , then it might still be the case that he overpaid to protect himself from the likely downside risks to future power prices ( i.e .
he overestimated the probability of future energy shocks pushing electricity prices to a high price per kw/h ) .
People who talk about " time to pay back " ( Prius owners are notorious for this type of cost ignorance ) without talking about present value , opportunity costs , depreciation , and risk are probably not coming out ahead .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One of the things that people constantly underestimate the price of is certainty.or overestimate it as the case may be.
It also is possible to calculate the amount of risk that he is "betting on" with future power prices.
If the price of the solar installation is high enough, and $38,000 is a nice chunk of change, then it might still be the case that he overpaid to protect himself from the likely downside risks to future power prices (i.e.
he overestimated the probability of future energy shocks pushing electricity prices to a high price per kw/h).
People who talk about "time to pay back" (Prius owners are notorious for this type of cost ignorance) without talking about present value, opportunity costs, depreciation, and risk are probably not coming out ahead.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28453863</id>
	<title>Thankfully, ExtremeTech is closing their doors</title>
	<author>default luser</author>
	<datestamp>1245863820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>The article is spread annoyingly over multiple pages, like everything at the site, and the print version omits the graphs.<br>my tags</i></p><p>ExtremeTech always has that sucky layout, but I'm proud to mention that <a href="http://www.semiaccurate.com/2009/06/20/ziff-davis-shutters-extremetech/" title="semiaccurate.com">they are closing their doors in a week or two</a> [semiaccurate.com].  This will mean the end of one of the many sites that spew 20-page articles that could have easily fit on two pages (and I never bother visiting).</p><p>Hopefully, the author of this article will find gainful employment at a site that DOESN'T hate it's users.  The fact is, he's the only reason I've bothered reading an ExtremeTech article in years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The article is spread annoyingly over multiple pages , like everything at the site , and the print version omits the graphs.my tagsExtremeTech always has that sucky layout , but I 'm proud to mention that they are closing their doors in a week or two [ semiaccurate.com ] .
This will mean the end of one of the many sites that spew 20-page articles that could have easily fit on two pages ( and I never bother visiting ) .Hopefully , the author of this article will find gainful employment at a site that DOES N'T hate it 's users .
The fact is , he 's the only reason I 've bothered reading an ExtremeTech article in years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The article is spread annoyingly over multiple pages, like everything at the site, and the print version omits the graphs.my tagsExtremeTech always has that sucky layout, but I'm proud to mention that they are closing their doors in a week or two [semiaccurate.com].
This will mean the end of one of the many sites that spew 20-page articles that could have easily fit on two pages (and I never bother visiting).Hopefully, the author of this article will find gainful employment at a site that DOESN'T hate it's users.
The fact is, he's the only reason I've bothered reading an ExtremeTech article in years.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445671</id>
	<title>Re:Solar panel longevity</title>
	<author>alienzed</author>
	<datestamp>1245752940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>But of course this isn't only about money, but purely renewable energy. This man basically isn't polluting anymore.</htmltext>
<tokenext>But of course this is n't only about money , but purely renewable energy .
This man basically is n't polluting anymore .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But of course this isn't only about money, but purely renewable energy.
This man basically isn't polluting anymore.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445131</id>
	<title>Re:Industy Standard Warranties</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245750960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Most manufacturers guarantee that their panels will give at least 90\% of peak power at ten years, and 80\% of power at 25 years. Yes, he's saving money.</p></div><p>These same manufacturers have guarantees that they will be in business in 25 years?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most manufacturers guarantee that their panels will give at least 90 \ % of peak power at ten years , and 80 \ % of power at 25 years .
Yes , he 's saving money.These same manufacturers have guarantees that they will be in business in 25 years ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most manufacturers guarantee that their panels will give at least 90\% of peak power at ten years, and 80\% of power at 25 years.
Yes, he's saving money.These same manufacturers have guarantees that they will be in business in 25 years?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28454839</id>
	<title>Re:"Spousal acceptance factor"</title>
	<author>zazenation</author>
	<datestamp>1245867180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Amen to that. Pleasing the spouse is certainly #1.</p><p>But there is also the posibility that he was alluding to acts reserved for more intimate activities --- with increasing frquency and variety. But given the G nature of the article, fell under "spousal acceptance".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Amen to that .
Pleasing the spouse is certainly # 1.But there is also the posibility that he was alluding to acts reserved for more intimate activities --- with increasing frquency and variety .
But given the G nature of the article , fell under " spousal acceptance " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Amen to that.
Pleasing the spouse is certainly #1.But there is also the posibility that he was alluding to acts reserved for more intimate activities --- with increasing frquency and variety.
But given the G nature of the article, fell under "spousal acceptance".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444719</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448413</id>
	<title>Re:No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>mgblst</author>
	<datestamp>1245771360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What an ignorant statement. So he can invest the money he saved by not buying the panels, but not the money he saves each months from electricity saving.</p><p>Why people still think like morons I'll never know, and the lengths you anti-enviros will go to make it look bad have no end.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What an ignorant statement .
So he can invest the money he saved by not buying the panels , but not the money he saves each months from electricity saving.Why people still think like morons I 'll never know , and the lengths you anti-enviros will go to make it look bad have no end .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What an ignorant statement.
So he can invest the money he saved by not buying the panels, but not the money he saves each months from electricity saving.Why people still think like morons I'll never know, and the lengths you anti-enviros will go to make it look bad have no end.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446245</id>
	<title>Repaginate + CSSViewer + Stylish</title>
	<author>HTH NE1</author>
	<datestamp>1245755400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The article is spread annoyingly over multiple pages, like everything at the site, and the print version omits the graphs.</p></div><p>Things like that is why I have Repaginate installed, and for sites where I use it regularly, I keep a special style in Stylish that removes the redundant information. So far I just use that for Amazon.com when looking through upcoming DVD releases by date, identifying what classes to suppress using CSSViewer.</p><p>Before using Stylish, I used EditCSS + CSSViewer to build the rules I needed. It's been awhile since I've needed to build new rules.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The article is spread annoyingly over multiple pages , like everything at the site , and the print version omits the graphs.Things like that is why I have Repaginate installed , and for sites where I use it regularly , I keep a special style in Stylish that removes the redundant information .
So far I just use that for Amazon.com when looking through upcoming DVD releases by date , identifying what classes to suppress using CSSViewer.Before using Stylish , I used EditCSS + CSSViewer to build the rules I needed .
It 's been awhile since I 've needed to build new rules .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The article is spread annoyingly over multiple pages, like everything at the site, and the print version omits the graphs.Things like that is why I have Repaginate installed, and for sites where I use it regularly, I keep a special style in Stylish that removes the redundant information.
So far I just use that for Amazon.com when looking through upcoming DVD releases by date, identifying what classes to suppress using CSSViewer.Before using Stylish, I used EditCSS + CSSViewer to build the rules I needed.
It's been awhile since I've needed to build new rules.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447023</id>
	<title>Re:This is not a lot of power....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245759240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wow. 2500 KWh is a lot of juice. You growing some plants inside or something?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p><p>I have a 2200sq ft house with a pool and and am using around 900-1200 kwh per month.</p><p>With our tiered electrical rates here in CA, 2500Kwh would cost about $1100.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow .
2500 KWh is a lot of juice .
You growing some plants inside or something ?
; ) I have a 2200sq ft house with a pool and and am using around 900-1200 kwh per month.With our tiered electrical rates here in CA , 2500Kwh would cost about $ 1100 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow.
2500 KWh is a lot of juice.
You growing some plants inside or something?
;)I have a 2200sq ft house with a pool and and am using around 900-1200 kwh per month.With our tiered electrical rates here in CA, 2500Kwh would cost about $1100.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445389</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446051</id>
	<title>*gasp* You figured it out, he's screwed!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245754620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>These questions have already been asked like 50 bajillion times.

<br> <br>That aside... His panels are insured for 30 years.  Typical panels are guaranteed to operate at 90\% efficiency after 10 years and 80\% efficiency after 20-25ish years.</htmltext>
<tokenext>These questions have already been asked like 50 bajillion times .
That aside... His panels are insured for 30 years .
Typical panels are guaranteed to operate at 90 \ % efficiency after 10 years and 80 \ % efficiency after 20-25ish years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These questions have already been asked like 50 bajillion times.
That aside... His panels are insured for 30 years.
Typical panels are guaranteed to operate at 90\% efficiency after 10 years and 80\% efficiency after 20-25ish years.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445291</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449421</id>
	<title>Re:No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245782820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You forgot the $38,000 he lost the first year buying all that crap for his house.</p><p>You were snotty, and almost funny, and yet you fail.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You forgot the $ 38,000 he lost the first year buying all that crap for his house.You were snotty , and almost funny , and yet you fail .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You forgot the $38,000 he lost the first year buying all that crap for his house.You were snotty, and almost funny, and yet you fail.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445415</id>
	<title>Less comsumption</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245751920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Our family has PG&amp;E and our monthly average for electricity is $60 or $720/yr.<br>We use less without solar panels.</p><p>WhatMeWorry!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Our family has PG&amp;E and our monthly average for electricity is $ 60 or $ 720/yr.We use less without solar panels.WhatMeWorry !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Our family has PG&amp;E and our monthly average for electricity is $60 or $720/yr.We use less without solar panels.WhatMeWorry!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445891</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>bcrowell</author>
	<datestamp>1245753840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
I have a residential PV system.
</p><blockquote><div><p>He is also sheltered to a certain extent from the failure of the power network so if a situation does arise where there are rolling blackouts again, he knows he will a least have some electricity each day.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
This is incorrect. Unless you're in an area where grid power is not available, you buy a PV system that's grid-tied, and then if there's a blackout, you have no power. A non-grid-tied system is significantly more expensive and complicated, so you don't want one unless its your only option.
</p><blockquote><div><p>One of the things that people constantly underestimate the price of is certainty.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
This is true, but the uncertainty argument isn't all in favor of getting PV. When people ask me how long my system will take to pay for itself, I always answer that I have absolutely no way of knowing, because I don't know what electricity will cost for the next 25 years, which is the design life of the system. If we get a big spike in electricity prices, I'll come out looking like a genius. But there are also other sources of uncertainty that work against PV. The price of the panels is expected to go down, and their efficiency is expected to go up. I don't know how much the price and efficiency will improve in the next 25 years, which is the design lifetime of my system. That's an uncertainty that argues <i>against</i> buying a PV system now.
</p><p>
I live in an area with expensive electricity and lots of sun. I have a south-facing roof with no shade. Given those factors, getting PV is a fairly reasonable investment, but there's no way to pin down exactly whether or not it's really going to look like a winner for me with hindsight in the year 2032 when the system's design lifetime is over.
</p><p>
What I do know is that (a) it's in the right ballpark to be a reasonable investment in purely financial terms, and (b) when my grandkids ask me what the **** I did to try to reduce global warming, I'll have at least one reasonable thing I can point to.
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a residential PV system .
He is also sheltered to a certain extent from the failure of the power network so if a situation does arise where there are rolling blackouts again , he knows he will a least have some electricity each day .
This is incorrect .
Unless you 're in an area where grid power is not available , you buy a PV system that 's grid-tied , and then if there 's a blackout , you have no power .
A non-grid-tied system is significantly more expensive and complicated , so you do n't want one unless its your only option .
One of the things that people constantly underestimate the price of is certainty .
This is true , but the uncertainty argument is n't all in favor of getting PV .
When people ask me how long my system will take to pay for itself , I always answer that I have absolutely no way of knowing , because I do n't know what electricity will cost for the next 25 years , which is the design life of the system .
If we get a big spike in electricity prices , I 'll come out looking like a genius .
But there are also other sources of uncertainty that work against PV .
The price of the panels is expected to go down , and their efficiency is expected to go up .
I do n't know how much the price and efficiency will improve in the next 25 years , which is the design lifetime of my system .
That 's an uncertainty that argues against buying a PV system now .
I live in an area with expensive electricity and lots of sun .
I have a south-facing roof with no shade .
Given those factors , getting PV is a fairly reasonable investment , but there 's no way to pin down exactly whether or not it 's really going to look like a winner for me with hindsight in the year 2032 when the system 's design lifetime is over .
What I do know is that ( a ) it 's in the right ballpark to be a reasonable investment in purely financial terms , and ( b ) when my grandkids ask me what the * * * * I did to try to reduce global warming , I 'll have at least one reasonable thing I can point to .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
I have a residential PV system.
He is also sheltered to a certain extent from the failure of the power network so if a situation does arise where there are rolling blackouts again, he knows he will a least have some electricity each day.
This is incorrect.
Unless you're in an area where grid power is not available, you buy a PV system that's grid-tied, and then if there's a blackout, you have no power.
A non-grid-tied system is significantly more expensive and complicated, so you don't want one unless its your only option.
One of the things that people constantly underestimate the price of is certainty.
This is true, but the uncertainty argument isn't all in favor of getting PV.
When people ask me how long my system will take to pay for itself, I always answer that I have absolutely no way of knowing, because I don't know what electricity will cost for the next 25 years, which is the design life of the system.
If we get a big spike in electricity prices, I'll come out looking like a genius.
But there are also other sources of uncertainty that work against PV.
The price of the panels is expected to go down, and their efficiency is expected to go up.
I don't know how much the price and efficiency will improve in the next 25 years, which is the design lifetime of my system.
That's an uncertainty that argues against buying a PV system now.
I live in an area with expensive electricity and lots of sun.
I have a south-facing roof with no shade.
Given those factors, getting PV is a fairly reasonable investment, but there's no way to pin down exactly whether or not it's really going to look like a winner for me with hindsight in the year 2032 when the system's design lifetime is over.
What I do know is that (a) it's in the right ballpark to be a reasonable investment in purely financial terms, and (b) when my grandkids ask me what the **** I did to try to reduce global warming, I'll have at least one reasonable thing I can point to.

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448787</id>
	<title>Another way to look at it.. where the $ goes</title>
	<author>peas\_n\_carrots</author>
	<datestamp>1245775320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Here's another way to view this.  Take the simple fact that we "need" electricity and will pay for it one way or another.  We can pay for generation by fossil fuels, or we can pay for it in investments in renewable energy.  It's not so much how long it'll take to pay back, it's that since the money will be spent on electricity anyway, might as well put it towards solar or wind based electrical generation.  At some point in time the financials break even, so you've spent money more wisely.  You're also not entirely at the mercy of the utilities (read: rolling blackouts).
<br> <br>
There's alot of factors at play here.  For example, it takes energy to make solar panels.  From what I've read though, the total energy output of modern solar cells far exceeds the energy needed to manufacture them. [Sorry don't have a link, but Google reveals all]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's another way to view this .
Take the simple fact that we " need " electricity and will pay for it one way or another .
We can pay for generation by fossil fuels , or we can pay for it in investments in renewable energy .
It 's not so much how long it 'll take to pay back , it 's that since the money will be spent on electricity anyway , might as well put it towards solar or wind based electrical generation .
At some point in time the financials break even , so you 've spent money more wisely .
You 're also not entirely at the mercy of the utilities ( read : rolling blackouts ) .
There 's alot of factors at play here .
For example , it takes energy to make solar panels .
From what I 've read though , the total energy output of modern solar cells far exceeds the energy needed to manufacture them .
[ Sorry do n't have a link , but Google reveals all ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's another way to view this.
Take the simple fact that we "need" electricity and will pay for it one way or another.
We can pay for generation by fossil fuels, or we can pay for it in investments in renewable energy.
It's not so much how long it'll take to pay back, it's that since the money will be spent on electricity anyway, might as well put it towards solar or wind based electrical generation.
At some point in time the financials break even, so you've spent money more wisely.
You're also not entirely at the mercy of the utilities (read: rolling blackouts).
There's alot of factors at play here.
For example, it takes energy to make solar panels.
From what I've read though, the total energy output of modern solar cells far exceeds the energy needed to manufacture them.
[Sorry don't have a link, but Google reveals all]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446199</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245755160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are correct that it's not nice to electrocute the utility technicians during an outage.  However, I believe you need to visit another alt energy show to understand the sync'd option along with AC versus DC.  The syncing is not to cut off your household's electrical generation during a grid outage, but to stop you from powering their grid during an outage.  Thus you can continue using your own power during the outage, but any excess you produce is NOT fed to the grid.  When the grid is up, your 60 Hz AC is sync'd with the grid 60Hz AC and your excess can be fed/intertied to the grid.  You might also draw from the grid to meet any deficiency between your consumption and your production.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are correct that it 's not nice to electrocute the utility technicians during an outage .
However , I believe you need to visit another alt energy show to understand the sync 'd option along with AC versus DC .
The syncing is not to cut off your household 's electrical generation during a grid outage , but to stop you from powering their grid during an outage .
Thus you can continue using your own power during the outage , but any excess you produce is NOT fed to the grid .
When the grid is up , your 60 Hz AC is sync 'd with the grid 60Hz AC and your excess can be fed/intertied to the grid .
You might also draw from the grid to meet any deficiency between your consumption and your production .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are correct that it's not nice to electrocute the utility technicians during an outage.
However, I believe you need to visit another alt energy show to understand the sync'd option along with AC versus DC.
The syncing is not to cut off your household's electrical generation during a grid outage, but to stop you from powering their grid during an outage.
Thus you can continue using your own power during the outage, but any excess you produce is NOT fed to the grid.
When the grid is up, your 60 Hz AC is sync'd with the grid 60Hz AC and your excess can be fed/intertied to the grid.
You might also draw from the grid to meet any deficiency between your consumption and your production.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444683</id>
	<title>Summer months most important</title>
	<author>elashish14</author>
	<datestamp>1245749460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Looking back at the 6-month summary and seeing how drastic the difference is, I think that's all that's worth it, isn't it? Summer is when we run our air conditions (sigh) most and therefore, is typically the season when power grids are under their greatest stress. So even if the price goes up a great deal in the winter (and still considerably less than without the panels), I would think that this is still a great resolution to the problem.</p><p>Now the issue is just getting out the $$$ to pay for it up front and waiting for the investment to come back. You're not earning interest on that money....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Looking back at the 6-month summary and seeing how drastic the difference is , I think that 's all that 's worth it , is n't it ?
Summer is when we run our air conditions ( sigh ) most and therefore , is typically the season when power grids are under their greatest stress .
So even if the price goes up a great deal in the winter ( and still considerably less than without the panels ) , I would think that this is still a great resolution to the problem.Now the issue is just getting out the $ $ $ to pay for it up front and waiting for the investment to come back .
You 're not earning interest on that money... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Looking back at the 6-month summary and seeing how drastic the difference is, I think that's all that's worth it, isn't it?
Summer is when we run our air conditions (sigh) most and therefore, is typically the season when power grids are under their greatest stress.
So even if the price goes up a great deal in the winter (and still considerably less than without the panels), I would think that this is still a great resolution to the problem.Now the issue is just getting out the $$$ to pay for it up front and waiting for the investment to come back.
You're not earning interest on that money....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445591</id>
	<title>roof repair?</title>
	<author>Mike\_K</author>
	<datestamp>1245752640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I noticed that they put the solar panels on rails on top of his roof. What happens when he needs to redo his shingles? This needs to be done every 10-15 years (at least in Toronto, where my parents live).</p><p>Who takes the panels down, the rails and then re-installs the whole thing? Or does the fact that the shingles get less exposure to the sun and snow mean that they won't have to be redone for a longer period of time? (which would be another savings)</p><p>m</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I noticed that they put the solar panels on rails on top of his roof .
What happens when he needs to redo his shingles ?
This needs to be done every 10-15 years ( at least in Toronto , where my parents live ) .Who takes the panels down , the rails and then re-installs the whole thing ?
Or does the fact that the shingles get less exposure to the sun and snow mean that they wo n't have to be redone for a longer period of time ?
( which would be another savings ) m</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I noticed that they put the solar panels on rails on top of his roof.
What happens when he needs to redo his shingles?
This needs to be done every 10-15 years (at least in Toronto, where my parents live).Who takes the panels down, the rails and then re-installs the whole thing?
Or does the fact that the shingles get less exposure to the sun and snow mean that they won't have to be redone for a longer period of time?
(which would be another savings)m</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445791</id>
	<title>Re:Going green takes some green.</title>
	<author>syphax</author>
	<datestamp>1245753480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Low up-front in MA, AZ, CA: <a href="http://www.sunrunhome.com/" title="sunrunhome.com">SunRun</a> [sunrunhome.com]</p><p>Bulk purchase groups: <a href="http://1bog.org/" title="1bog.org">1BOG</a> [1bog.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Low up-front in MA , AZ , CA : SunRun [ sunrunhome.com ] Bulk purchase groups : 1BOG [ 1bog.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Low up-front in MA, AZ, CA: SunRun [sunrunhome.com]Bulk purchase groups: 1BOG [1bog.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445005</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444427</id>
	<title>Re:Return on investment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245748500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><nobr> <wbr></nobr></p><div class="quote"><p>...as long as the investment itself dosn't depreciate in value.</p> </div><p>which in this case it surely will. In fact the way technological things change in general I would assume that his solar-power setting would have pretty much depreciated to some small fraction of 38k.</p><p>PS: I don't disapprove of this guy spending 38k on solar powering of his house even a tiny bit, but I think it is quite interesting to evaluate this stuff as parent suggested-</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>...as long as the investment itself dos n't depreciate in value .
which in this case it surely will .
In fact the way technological things change in general I would assume that his solar-power setting would have pretty much depreciated to some small fraction of 38k.PS : I do n't disapprove of this guy spending 38k on solar powering of his house even a tiny bit , but I think it is quite interesting to evaluate this stuff as parent suggested-</tokentext>
<sentencetext> ...as long as the investment itself dosn't depreciate in value.
which in this case it surely will.
In fact the way technological things change in general I would assume that his solar-power setting would have pretty much depreciated to some small fraction of 38k.PS: I don't disapprove of this guy spending 38k on solar powering of his house even a tiny bit, but I think it is quite interesting to evaluate this stuff as parent suggested-
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444317</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444637</id>
	<title>Re:Solar panel longevity</title>
	<author>hack  slash</author>
	<datestamp>1245749280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have a 1983 Kyocera 30 watt panel which still gives me an accurately measured 24 watts in mid summer, mid day sunlight, 80\% of it's original rating after 25+ years is pretty good I think.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a 1983 Kyocera 30 watt panel which still gives me an accurately measured 24 watts in mid summer , mid day sunlight , 80 \ % of it 's original rating after 25 + years is pretty good I think .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a 1983 Kyocera 30 watt panel which still gives me an accurately measured 24 watts in mid summer, mid day sunlight, 80\% of it's original rating after 25+ years is pretty good I think.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446179</id>
	<title>Re:No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>ArsonSmith</author>
	<datestamp>1245755100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What you are missing is that he is getting rid of the expense of the electric bill.  If he dropped his monthly average by $300 then the investment is really only $2k.  A payment of $300mo * 10 years is $36k he was not going to be able to invest at all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What you are missing is that he is getting rid of the expense of the electric bill .
If he dropped his monthly average by $ 300 then the investment is really only $ 2k .
A payment of $ 300mo * 10 years is $ 36k he was not going to be able to invest at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What you are missing is that he is getting rid of the expense of the electric bill.
If he dropped his monthly average by $300 then the investment is really only $2k.
A payment of $300mo * 10 years is $36k he was not going to be able to invest at all.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444837</id>
	<title>And thanks, too</title>
	<author>hyades1</author>
	<datestamp>1245749880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> By being an early adopter, Loyd also helps the technology to gain acceptance, which helps everybody who chooses solar later on.  Acceptance = economies of scale = lower price.  Assuming energy prices stay roughly where they are or rise, people who come after Loyd will reach their break even point much sooner, even assuming further innovation doesn't cut the price of solar even more. </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>By being an early adopter , Loyd also helps the technology to gain acceptance , which helps everybody who chooses solar later on .
Acceptance = economies of scale = lower price .
Assuming energy prices stay roughly where they are or rise , people who come after Loyd will reach their break even point much sooner , even assuming further innovation does n't cut the price of solar even more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> By being an early adopter, Loyd also helps the technology to gain acceptance, which helps everybody who chooses solar later on.
Acceptance = economies of scale = lower price.
Assuming energy prices stay roughly where they are or rise, people who come after Loyd will reach their break even point much sooner, even assuming further innovation doesn't cut the price of solar even more. </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28457405</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>Tokerat</author>
	<datestamp>1245876480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I thought when the grid went down that synced panel set ups just cut them selves off from the grid, not that they cut them selves off from powering your home.</p></div><p>Yeah, that makes way more sense, and can't be that hard to implement (IBGTs, anyone?)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I thought when the grid went down that synced panel set ups just cut them selves off from the grid , not that they cut them selves off from powering your home.Yeah , that makes way more sense , and ca n't be that hard to implement ( IBGTs , anyone ?
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I thought when the grid went down that synced panel set ups just cut them selves off from the grid, not that they cut them selves off from powering your home.Yeah, that makes way more sense, and can't be that hard to implement (IBGTs, anyone?
)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445239</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445535</id>
	<title>Re:Solar panel longevity</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1245752460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>20-25 years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>20-25 years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>20-25 years.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445163</id>
	<title>More power?</title>
	<author>highfidelitychris</author>
	<datestamp>1245751080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Based on his power bills on all times other than the summer, it seems like he should have installed another panel or two.  He could potentially have sold back the power during the summer months and had less utility bills during the winter.  Since his energy pricing is tiered, it would make sense to knock off the high-end of use as much as possible.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Based on his power bills on all times other than the summer , it seems like he should have installed another panel or two .
He could potentially have sold back the power during the summer months and had less utility bills during the winter .
Since his energy pricing is tiered , it would make sense to knock off the high-end of use as much as possible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Based on his power bills on all times other than the summer, it seems like he should have installed another panel or two.
He could potentially have sold back the power during the summer months and had less utility bills during the winter.
Since his energy pricing is tiered, it would make sense to knock off the high-end of use as much as possible.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447489</id>
	<title>Re:Solar panel longevity</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1245762300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>According to the first article in the series, the panels are warranted to be at 90\% after 12 years and 80\% after 25. So it looks like over a decade of free power after the system pays for itself. Note that the payoff comes sooner in the near certain case that electricity goes up in price over the next decade.</p><p>After they do lose too much efficiency, he can re-use most of the installation (just replace the panels). He may well be able to replace the panels with fewer more efficient and cheaper panels at that time OR add another inverter.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>According to the first article in the series , the panels are warranted to be at 90 \ % after 12 years and 80 \ % after 25 .
So it looks like over a decade of free power after the system pays for itself .
Note that the payoff comes sooner in the near certain case that electricity goes up in price over the next decade.After they do lose too much efficiency , he can re-use most of the installation ( just replace the panels ) .
He may well be able to replace the panels with fewer more efficient and cheaper panels at that time OR add another inverter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>According to the first article in the series, the panels are warranted to be at 90\% after 12 years and 80\% after 25.
So it looks like over a decade of free power after the system pays for itself.
Note that the payoff comes sooner in the near certain case that electricity goes up in price over the next decade.After they do lose too much efficiency, he can re-use most of the installation (just replace the panels).
He may well be able to replace the panels with fewer more efficient and cheaper panels at that time OR add another inverter.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445003</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245750480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>The big cost looming for electrical generation has nothing to do with the Gulf, it has to do with a Carbon tax/cap. Unless we go crazy building nuclear plants there WILL be a significant increase in electric rates if we are at all serious about stopping CO2 buildup.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The big cost looming for electrical generation has nothing to do with the Gulf , it has to do with a Carbon tax/cap .
Unless we go crazy building nuclear plants there WILL be a significant increase in electric rates if we are at all serious about stopping CO2 buildup .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The big cost looming for electrical generation has nothing to do with the Gulf, it has to do with a Carbon tax/cap.
Unless we go crazy building nuclear plants there WILL be a significant increase in electric rates if we are at all serious about stopping CO2 buildup.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449201</id>
	<title>Three Years Top</title>
	<author>Nom du Keyboard</author>
	<datestamp>1245779880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If Cap-and-Trade is passed, Lloyd should expect it to by paid off in 3 years tops - and the rest of us are royally screwed.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If Cap-and-Trade is passed , Lloyd should expect it to by paid off in 3 years tops - and the rest of us are royally screwed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If Cap-and-Trade is passed, Lloyd should expect it to by paid off in 3 years tops - and the rest of us are royally screwed.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444977</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>westlake</author>
	<datestamp>1245750420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>The guy in the article however is guaranteed a minimum amount of power each year from his solar panels at a rate he knows.</i> </p><p>Guaranteed by who and for how much? If the panels fail prematurely what are his real chances of recovery?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The guy in the article however is guaranteed a minimum amount of power each year from his solar panels at a rate he knows .
Guaranteed by who and for how much ?
If the panels fail prematurely what are his real chances of recovery ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The guy in the article however is guaranteed a minimum amount of power each year from his solar panels at a rate he knows.
Guaranteed by who and for how much?
If the panels fail prematurely what are his real chances of recovery?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449719</id>
	<title>Re:No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245785700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Why people still routinely neglect compound interest I'll never know.</p><p>If he takes the $3000 he saves in electricity costs every year and invests that at 5\%, he'll have $47,751.38 at the end of 12 years.</p></div><p>Any why people still routinely neglect the cost of capital *I'll* never know.  He won't have 47k after 12 years because he's starting 30k in the hole.  After 12 years he'll have 47 - 30 = $17k, vs. the 32k he'd have if he invested in a 5\% bond.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why people still routinely neglect compound interest I 'll never know.If he takes the $ 3000 he saves in electricity costs every year and invests that at 5 \ % , he 'll have $ 47,751.38 at the end of 12 years.Any why people still routinely neglect the cost of capital * I 'll * never know .
He wo n't have 47k after 12 years because he 's starting 30k in the hole .
After 12 years he 'll have 47 - 30 = $ 17k , vs. the 32k he 'd have if he invested in a 5 \ % bond .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why people still routinely neglect compound interest I'll never know.If he takes the $3000 he saves in electricity costs every year and invests that at 5\%, he'll have $47,751.38 at the end of 12 years.Any why people still routinely neglect the cost of capital *I'll* never know.
He won't have 47k after 12 years because he's starting 30k in the hole.
After 12 years he'll have 47 - 30 = $17k, vs. the 32k he'd have if he invested in a 5\% bond.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447019</id>
	<title>Re:No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>selven</author>
	<datestamp>1245759180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You forgot to compound the money he pays for electricity.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You forgot to compound the money he pays for electricity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You forgot to compound the money he pays for electricity.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28450327</id>
	<title>Re:"Spousal acceptance factor"</title>
	<author>IrquiM</author>
	<datestamp>1245837060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Marriage is the new dating!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Marriage is the new dating !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Marriage is the new dating!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444719</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446761</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>eriks</author>
	<datestamp>1245757860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Um, no, not really.  There's no reason to stop producing power when the grid goes down.  You, however really do have to have an automated Transfer Switch (these are sometimes integrated into the inverter with a solar system) with any on-line power system, so that when the grid goes down, you stop powering the GRID.  You can do whatever you want with power you are generating inside your home, which if the power goes out when it's sunny, or if you have a battery system, or a generator, feeding the inverter, should be plenty to run your fridge, and maybe a few lights, even if you are producing less than you need to run everything.  This is vastly under-appreciated I think, in terms of the value it adds to your home.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Um , no , not really .
There 's no reason to stop producing power when the grid goes down .
You , however really do have to have an automated Transfer Switch ( these are sometimes integrated into the inverter with a solar system ) with any on-line power system , so that when the grid goes down , you stop powering the GRID .
You can do whatever you want with power you are generating inside your home , which if the power goes out when it 's sunny , or if you have a battery system , or a generator , feeding the inverter , should be plenty to run your fridge , and maybe a few lights , even if you are producing less than you need to run everything .
This is vastly under-appreciated I think , in terms of the value it adds to your home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Um, no, not really.
There's no reason to stop producing power when the grid goes down.
You, however really do have to have an automated Transfer Switch (these are sometimes integrated into the inverter with a solar system) with any on-line power system, so that when the grid goes down, you stop powering the GRID.
You can do whatever you want with power you are generating inside your home, which if the power goes out when it's sunny, or if you have a battery system, or a generator, feeding the inverter, should be plenty to run your fridge, and maybe a few lights, even if you are producing less than you need to run everything.
This is vastly under-appreciated I think, in terms of the value it adds to your home.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449387</id>
	<title>Re:Less comsumption</title>
	<author>dinodriver</author>
	<datestamp>1245782340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>We don't have new energy efficient appliances, don't really even think about saving electricity, have the usual amount of stuff and still...our May bill, for a family of four, in a 1600 sq. ft. house in the SF Bay Area was 340 KwH for $41. What am I doing wrong that I'm not burning 2500 KwH a month? Ha!</htmltext>
<tokenext>We do n't have new energy efficient appliances , do n't really even think about saving electricity , have the usual amount of stuff and still...our May bill , for a family of four , in a 1600 sq .
ft. house in the SF Bay Area was 340 KwH for $ 41 .
What am I doing wrong that I 'm not burning 2500 KwH a month ?
Ha !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We don't have new energy efficient appliances, don't really even think about saving electricity, have the usual amount of stuff and still...our May bill, for a family of four, in a 1600 sq.
ft. house in the SF Bay Area was 340 KwH for $41.
What am I doing wrong that I'm not burning 2500 KwH a month?
Ha!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445415</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446445</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>AK Marc</author>
	<datestamp>1245756360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>The last is the most common setup since the idea is to conserve electricity usage, not replace the need for the grid. If all the panels in a neighborhood were feeding energy into the, now dark, grid imagine the power company technician trying to work with the wires that are 'live' from the client side. They could shut off power from the distribution source, but it would still live from the residences preventing it from being safe.</i> <br> <br>The hookups should disconnect from the grid when the grid is down.  It is silly to turn off your power when the grid is down, rather than just run it separately.  Then, once the grid is back up, connect them together again.  Oh, and all electrical workers are aware of this, and all electric lines are treated as hot.  Yes, treating a hot line as hot is less safe than treating a dark line as hot, but it isn't like the unsuspecting electrical workers are grabbing them with their bare hands and getting fried.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The last is the most common setup since the idea is to conserve electricity usage , not replace the need for the grid .
If all the panels in a neighborhood were feeding energy into the , now dark , grid imagine the power company technician trying to work with the wires that are 'live ' from the client side .
They could shut off power from the distribution source , but it would still live from the residences preventing it from being safe .
The hookups should disconnect from the grid when the grid is down .
It is silly to turn off your power when the grid is down , rather than just run it separately .
Then , once the grid is back up , connect them together again .
Oh , and all electrical workers are aware of this , and all electric lines are treated as hot .
Yes , treating a hot line as hot is less safe than treating a dark line as hot , but it is n't like the unsuspecting electrical workers are grabbing them with their bare hands and getting fried .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The last is the most common setup since the idea is to conserve electricity usage, not replace the need for the grid.
If all the panels in a neighborhood were feeding energy into the, now dark, grid imagine the power company technician trying to work with the wires that are 'live' from the client side.
They could shut off power from the distribution source, but it would still live from the residences preventing it from being safe.
The hookups should disconnect from the grid when the grid is down.
It is silly to turn off your power when the grid is down, rather than just run it separately.
Then, once the grid is back up, connect them together again.
Oh, and all electrical workers are aware of this, and all electric lines are treated as hot.
Yes, treating a hot line as hot is less safe than treating a dark line as hot, but it isn't like the unsuspecting electrical workers are grabbing them with their bare hands and getting fried.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448399</id>
	<title>Re:Return on investment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245771180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're assuming that the cost of electricity will stay the same over the next 10 years.  It won't.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're assuming that the cost of electricity will stay the same over the next 10 years .
It wo n't .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're assuming that the cost of electricity will stay the same over the next 10 years.
It won't.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445975</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>vlm</author>
	<datestamp>1245754200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I imagine it would be bad to run A/C stuff inverted from a variable DC line as well. If you are trying to run normal household stuff straight off the power output of the panels, as it gets later in the day, you'd start getting your own 'brownouts' in the house wouldn't you?</p></div><p>I suppose you could intentionally buy stuff that fails that way.  I don't.</p><p>Most switching mode supplies don't care as long as it's above a certain minimum.</p><p>For example, I have a perfectly nice "twelve volt" input ATX supply in my server from powerstream.  It doesn't much care as long as the input voltage is above 9 volts and below 18.  At 9 volts the lead-acid backup batteries are about 99.99\% empty so theres not much lost capacity.  If the battery is above 18 volts, its probably on fire or something.  So pretty much, as long as there's the tiniest fraction of a KWh left in the batteries, my server runs.</p><p><a href="http://www.powerstream.com/DC-PC-12V.htm" title="powerstream.com">http://www.powerstream.com/DC-PC-12V.htm</a> [powerstream.com]</p><p>This is all off the shelf stuff, no big deal, nothing special.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I imagine it would be bad to run A/C stuff inverted from a variable DC line as well .
If you are trying to run normal household stuff straight off the power output of the panels , as it gets later in the day , you 'd start getting your own 'brownouts ' in the house would n't you ? I suppose you could intentionally buy stuff that fails that way .
I do n't.Most switching mode supplies do n't care as long as it 's above a certain minimum.For example , I have a perfectly nice " twelve volt " input ATX supply in my server from powerstream .
It does n't much care as long as the input voltage is above 9 volts and below 18 .
At 9 volts the lead-acid backup batteries are about 99.99 \ % empty so theres not much lost capacity .
If the battery is above 18 volts , its probably on fire or something .
So pretty much , as long as there 's the tiniest fraction of a KWh left in the batteries , my server runs.http : //www.powerstream.com/DC-PC-12V.htm [ powerstream.com ] This is all off the shelf stuff , no big deal , nothing special .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I imagine it would be bad to run A/C stuff inverted from a variable DC line as well.
If you are trying to run normal household stuff straight off the power output of the panels, as it gets later in the day, you'd start getting your own 'brownouts' in the house wouldn't you?I suppose you could intentionally buy stuff that fails that way.
I don't.Most switching mode supplies don't care as long as it's above a certain minimum.For example, I have a perfectly nice "twelve volt" input ATX supply in my server from powerstream.
It doesn't much care as long as the input voltage is above 9 volts and below 18.
At 9 volts the lead-acid backup batteries are about 99.99\% empty so theres not much lost capacity.
If the battery is above 18 volts, its probably on fire or something.
So pretty much, as long as there's the tiniest fraction of a KWh left in the batteries, my server runs.http://www.powerstream.com/DC-PC-12V.htm [powerstream.com]This is all off the shelf stuff, no big deal, nothing special.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447811</id>
	<title>Re:Return on investment</title>
	<author>BikeHelmet</author>
	<datestamp>1245764880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't forget to factor in that electricity will likely cost twice as much in 10 years.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;) It probably is a clear win for solar, but we'll find out for sure in a decade.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't forget to factor in that electricity will likely cost twice as much in 10 years .
; ) It probably is a clear win for solar , but we 'll find out for sure in a decade .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't forget to factor in that electricity will likely cost twice as much in 10 years.
;) It probably is a clear win for solar, but we'll find out for sure in a decade.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445339</id>
	<title>Re:12 year payback?</title>
	<author>ducomputergeek</author>
	<datestamp>1245751680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We put solar up on our office roof last year.  Met about 70\% of our energy needs, but the main reason we did it was the fact we had enough cash in the bank to cover it and the choices were spent it or watch 40\% goto uncle sam in the form of corporate income tax.  None of the owners wanted to take anymore home due to then having to pay more in personal income tax.</p><p>We looked at the various options and putting up solar panels made sense since it freed up enough cash flow to hire an extra jr. developer.  That paid huge dividends this year as we were able to move 2 projects/products to market faster.</p><p>All worked out well until we had a freak storm with 100MPH straight line winds that tore the panels off the roof a month ago and the insurance check isn't quite enough to cover replacing all the panels.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We put solar up on our office roof last year .
Met about 70 \ % of our energy needs , but the main reason we did it was the fact we had enough cash in the bank to cover it and the choices were spent it or watch 40 \ % goto uncle sam in the form of corporate income tax .
None of the owners wanted to take anymore home due to then having to pay more in personal income tax.We looked at the various options and putting up solar panels made sense since it freed up enough cash flow to hire an extra jr. developer. That paid huge dividends this year as we were able to move 2 projects/products to market faster.All worked out well until we had a freak storm with 100MPH straight line winds that tore the panels off the roof a month ago and the insurance check is n't quite enough to cover replacing all the panels .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We put solar up on our office roof last year.
Met about 70\% of our energy needs, but the main reason we did it was the fact we had enough cash in the bank to cover it and the choices were spent it or watch 40\% goto uncle sam in the form of corporate income tax.
None of the owners wanted to take anymore home due to then having to pay more in personal income tax.We looked at the various options and putting up solar panels made sense since it freed up enough cash flow to hire an extra jr. developer.  That paid huge dividends this year as we were able to move 2 projects/products to market faster.All worked out well until we had a freak storm with 100MPH straight line winds that tore the panels off the roof a month ago and the insurance check isn't quite enough to cover replacing all the panels.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444573</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447643</id>
	<title>Solar is Too Easy</title>
	<author>cc\_pirate</author>
	<datestamp>1245763440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Real men and women (and little fuzzy creatures from Alpha Centauri) use household fuel cells!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Real men and women ( and little fuzzy creatures from Alpha Centauri ) use household fuel cells !
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Real men and women (and little fuzzy creatures from Alpha Centauri) use household fuel cells!
:)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28452303</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>Kyont</author>
	<datestamp>1245857820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Excellent points.  Another thing is to consider what else he could have done with that money.  I can't recall the source, but I read a couple years back an interview with a doctor, age 55 or so, who spent about this same amount on solar panels.  To the doubters, who were saying he'll only get 90\% of his money back on the investment, he won't live long enough to see a positive ROI, it's not truly green, etc., he essentially said, "Look, nobody would even blink if I spent $50K on a Lexus, which will be worth almost nothing in 10 years and cost me all kinds of insurance and maintenance money in the meantime.  So if I spend $25K on a decent car and $25K on solar panels that almost kinda pay back in savings, I'm coming out way ahead of what most people in my position would do."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Excellent points .
Another thing is to consider what else he could have done with that money .
I ca n't recall the source , but I read a couple years back an interview with a doctor , age 55 or so , who spent about this same amount on solar panels .
To the doubters , who were saying he 'll only get 90 \ % of his money back on the investment , he wo n't live long enough to see a positive ROI , it 's not truly green , etc. , he essentially said , " Look , nobody would even blink if I spent $ 50K on a Lexus , which will be worth almost nothing in 10 years and cost me all kinds of insurance and maintenance money in the meantime .
So if I spend $ 25K on a decent car and $ 25K on solar panels that almost kinda pay back in savings , I 'm coming out way ahead of what most people in my position would do .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Excellent points.
Another thing is to consider what else he could have done with that money.
I can't recall the source, but I read a couple years back an interview with a doctor, age 55 or so, who spent about this same amount on solar panels.
To the doubters, who were saying he'll only get 90\% of his money back on the investment, he won't live long enough to see a positive ROI, it's not truly green, etc., he essentially said, "Look, nobody would even blink if I spent $50K on a Lexus, which will be worth almost nothing in 10 years and cost me all kinds of insurance and maintenance money in the meantime.
So if I spend $25K on a decent car and $25K on solar panels that almost kinda pay back in savings, I'm coming out way ahead of what most people in my position would do.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447325</id>
	<title>Re:Return on investment</title>
	<author>c6gunner</author>
	<datestamp>1245761160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Efficiency loss isn't really a huge issue since you can always attach another panel or two.  Adding extra capacity would be quite cheap even assuming that prices remain constant.  Sure, it would increase your total investment, but not by much.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Efficiency loss is n't really a huge issue since you can always attach another panel or two .
Adding extra capacity would be quite cheap even assuming that prices remain constant .
Sure , it would increase your total investment , but not by much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Efficiency loss isn't really a huge issue since you can always attach another panel or two.
Adding extra capacity would be quite cheap even assuming that prices remain constant.
Sure, it would increase your total investment, but not by much.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444681</id>
	<title>RTFA</title>
	<author>Kneo24</author>
	<datestamp>1245749460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you had RTFA you would see that the panels are quoted as having a 30 year warranty. So in 30 years. If they break down before that, he gets freebies, and I imagine those will produce more electricity. All in all, it's worth it.<br> <br>

Futhermore, Wikipedia has this to say about Solar Panels and how efficient they are at a certain time frame:<p><div class="quote"><p>Solar panels must withstand heat, cold, rain and hail for many years. Many Crystalline silicon module manufacturers offer warranties that guarantee electrical production for 10 years at 90\% of rated power output and 25 years at 80\%.</p></div><p> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic\_module" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic\_module</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you had RTFA you would see that the panels are quoted as having a 30 year warranty .
So in 30 years .
If they break down before that , he gets freebies , and I imagine those will produce more electricity .
All in all , it 's worth it .
Futhermore , Wikipedia has this to say about Solar Panels and how efficient they are at a certain time frame : Solar panels must withstand heat , cold , rain and hail for many years .
Many Crystalline silicon module manufacturers offer warranties that guarantee electrical production for 10 years at 90 \ % of rated power output and 25 years at 80 \ % .
http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic \ _module [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you had RTFA you would see that the panels are quoted as having a 30 year warranty.
So in 30 years.
If they break down before that, he gets freebies, and I imagine those will produce more electricity.
All in all, it's worth it.
Futhermore, Wikipedia has this to say about Solar Panels and how efficient they are at a certain time frame:Solar panels must withstand heat, cold, rain and hail for many years.
Many Crystalline silicon module manufacturers offer warranties that guarantee electrical production for 10 years at 90\% of rated power output and 25 years at 80\%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic\_module [wikipedia.org]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449773</id>
	<title>Re:No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245786360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><tt>I don't think you're making equal comparisons.&nbsp; You appear to be giving him an extra $3000/yr to work with for the buy-the-solar-panels option.&nbsp; Let's start with the assumption that he has $38000 and $3000/yr to spend on electricity.&nbsp; He can:<br><br>1.&nbsp; Invest the $38000 immediately, and spend his $3000/yr on electricity.&nbsp; This gives him $68242 after 12 years of compound interest.<br>2.&nbsp; Spend the $38000 on solar panels, and invest his $3000/yr.&nbsp; This gives him $47751 after 12 years of compound interest.<br><br>Obviously, option 1 looks better.&nbsp; I think what you did was make the following comparisons, giving an unfair advantage to the spend-$38000-on-solar-panels option:<br><br>Choice 1:&nbsp; He has $38000 and $3000/yr to spend on electricity.&nbsp; He uses the $38000 on solar panels and invests the $3000/yr.&nbsp; He has $47751 after 12 years.<br>Choice 2:&nbsp; He has $38000 but DOES NOT HAVE $3000/yr to spend on electricity.&nbsp; He invests the $38000, but now has to spend $3000/yr from the invested $38000.&nbsp; He only has $32242 after 12 years.<br><br>You have to give him that $3000/yr in both scenarios, or neither.&nbsp; And if you give it to him in neither, he'll have $32000 after 12 years without the solar panels, and $0 with them.<br><br></tt></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't think you 're making equal comparisons.   You appear to be giving him an extra $ 3000/yr to work with for the buy-the-solar-panels option.   Let 's start with the assumption that he has $ 38000 and $ 3000/yr to spend on electricity.   He can : 1.   Invest the $ 38000 immediately , and spend his $ 3000/yr on electricity.   This gives him $ 68242 after 12 years of compound interest.2.   Spend the $ 38000 on solar panels , and invest his $ 3000/yr.   This gives him $ 47751 after 12 years of compound interest.Obviously , option 1 looks better.   I think what you did was make the following comparisons , giving an unfair advantage to the spend- $ 38000-on-solar-panels option : Choice 1 :   He has $ 38000 and $ 3000/yr to spend on electricity.   He uses the $ 38000 on solar panels and invests the $ 3000/yr.   He has $ 47751 after 12 years.Choice 2 :   He has $ 38000 but DOES NOT HAVE $ 3000/yr to spend on electricity.   He invests the $ 38000 , but now has to spend $ 3000/yr from the invested $ 38000.   He only has $ 32242 after 12 years.You have to give him that $ 3000/yr in both scenarios , or neither.   And if you give it to him in neither , he 'll have $ 32000 after 12 years without the solar panels , and $ 0 with them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't think you're making equal comparisons.  You appear to be giving him an extra $3000/yr to work with for the buy-the-solar-panels option.  Let's start with the assumption that he has $38000 and $3000/yr to spend on electricity.  He can:1.  Invest the $38000 immediately, and spend his $3000/yr on electricity.  This gives him $68242 after 12 years of compound interest.2.  Spend the $38000 on solar panels, and invest his $3000/yr.  This gives him $47751 after 12 years of compound interest.Obviously, option 1 looks better.  I think what you did was make the following comparisons, giving an unfair advantage to the spend-$38000-on-solar-panels option:Choice 1:  He has $38000 and $3000/yr to spend on electricity.  He uses the $38000 on solar panels and invests the $3000/yr.  He has $47751 after 12 years.Choice 2:  He has $38000 but DOES NOT HAVE $3000/yr to spend on electricity.  He invests the $38000, but now has to spend $3000/yr from the invested $38000.  He only has $32242 after 12 years.You have to give him that $3000/yr in both scenarios, or neither.  And if you give it to him in neither, he'll have $32000 after 12 years without the solar panels, and $0 with them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444401</id>
	<title>Re:Panel Degradation</title>
	<author>sexconker</author>
	<datestamp>1245748440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yup.  Joke's on him.<br>And the taxpayers who subsidized whatever government rebates/discounts/tax credits he got for "going green".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yup .
Joke 's on him.And the taxpayers who subsidized whatever government rebates/discounts/tax credits he got for " going green " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yup.
Joke's on him.And the taxpayers who subsidized whatever government rebates/discounts/tax credits he got for "going green".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447287</id>
	<title>Re:"Spousal acceptance factor"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245760920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's bullshit. If you're never allowed to do something selfish and just for yourself, you're going to start resenting the other person for it sooner or later.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's bullshit .
If you 're never allowed to do something selfish and just for yourself , you 're going to start resenting the other person for it sooner or later .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's bullshit.
If you're never allowed to do something selfish and just for yourself, you're going to start resenting the other person for it sooner or later.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444719</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445161</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>JoeMerchant</author>
	<datestamp>1245751080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When the cold fusion fairy finally appears, cost per kwh should take a remarkable turn....</htmltext>
<tokenext>When the cold fusion fairy finally appears , cost per kwh should take a remarkable turn... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When the cold fusion fairy finally appears, cost per kwh should take a remarkable turn....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444811</id>
	<title>Solar is not competitive</title>
	<author>rockytopchip</author>
	<datestamp>1245749760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If solar technology and price were close to being competitive with conventional energy (coal in my case) then you would see many small solar deployments by consumers as well as large solar deployments by businesses and even power utilities themselves.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If solar technology and price were close to being competitive with conventional energy ( coal in my case ) then you would see many small solar deployments by consumers as well as large solar deployments by businesses and even power utilities themselves .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If solar technology and price were close to being competitive with conventional energy (coal in my case) then you would see many small solar deployments by consumers as well as large solar deployments by businesses and even power utilities themselves.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446917</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>Buelldozer</author>
	<datestamp>1245758700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not sure how you got modded "Interesting" since your main point "Sync'd" is incorrect.</p><p>Apparently they didn't explain the function of a transfer panel at your alternative energy show. A transfer panel will decouple your home energy generation system from the grid in the event of utility power failure.</p><p>Some panels do this automatically and others are manual. Either way a solution exists and is commonly used for just the situation you're describing. Also, AFAIK almost every municipalities electrical code requires the installation of these when you install your own power generation capability.</p><p>Also even if he doesn't have batteries he can always reduce demand to equal his output and have SOME of his stuff going. Maybe he has to turn off the home LAN/WLAN, his big screen TV and not run the dryer or microwave but it's almost certainly possible for him to stay at or below his generation capacity unless it's the dead of the night.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not sure how you got modded " Interesting " since your main point " Sync 'd " is incorrect.Apparently they did n't explain the function of a transfer panel at your alternative energy show .
A transfer panel will decouple your home energy generation system from the grid in the event of utility power failure.Some panels do this automatically and others are manual .
Either way a solution exists and is commonly used for just the situation you 're describing .
Also , AFAIK almost every municipalities electrical code requires the installation of these when you install your own power generation capability.Also even if he does n't have batteries he can always reduce demand to equal his output and have SOME of his stuff going .
Maybe he has to turn off the home LAN/WLAN , his big screen TV and not run the dryer or microwave but it 's almost certainly possible for him to stay at or below his generation capacity unless it 's the dead of the night .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not sure how you got modded "Interesting" since your main point "Sync'd" is incorrect.Apparently they didn't explain the function of a transfer panel at your alternative energy show.
A transfer panel will decouple your home energy generation system from the grid in the event of utility power failure.Some panels do this automatically and others are manual.
Either way a solution exists and is commonly used for just the situation you're describing.
Also, AFAIK almost every municipalities electrical code requires the installation of these when you install your own power generation capability.Also even if he doesn't have batteries he can always reduce demand to equal his output and have SOME of his stuff going.
Maybe he has to turn off the home LAN/WLAN, his big screen TV and not run the dryer or microwave but it's almost certainly possible for him to stay at or below his generation capacity unless it's the dead of the night.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28450325</id>
	<title>Multiple pages</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245836880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm tired of this shit. The print version of sites was reliable for a long time. I wonder how many morons actually printed shit out though it was useful if you didn't want to keep clicking every two minutes.<br>The content just isn't good enough to for me to pay 2 cents for or spend 3 seconds clicking on a next link every 3 minutes fuck you, I'm not visiting that link at all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm tired of this shit .
The print version of sites was reliable for a long time .
I wonder how many morons actually printed shit out though it was useful if you did n't want to keep clicking every two minutes.The content just is n't good enough to for me to pay 2 cents for or spend 3 seconds clicking on a next link every 3 minutes fuck you , I 'm not visiting that link at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm tired of this shit.
The print version of sites was reliable for a long time.
I wonder how many morons actually printed shit out though it was useful if you didn't want to keep clicking every two minutes.The content just isn't good enough to for me to pay 2 cents for or spend 3 seconds clicking on a next link every 3 minutes fuck you, I'm not visiting that link at all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445183</id>
	<title>If anyone is interested in a solar water heater...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245751140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've written a blog on my solar water heater which covers about the same year period as Loyd's solar panels about 100 miles north of Sunnyvale.

Loyd's story is very useful to me as I've been debating if solar panels would improve the efficiency of the solar water heater.  I'm still not sure this was a wise financial investment, but I do like how I get free hot water when the sun is out and the hot water never runs out (like with a tankless).

Anyway, for those interested in solar water heating:  <a href="http://suburbiasolarwaterheating.blogspot.com/" title="blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://suburbiasolarwaterheating.blogspot.com/</a> [blogspot.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've written a blog on my solar water heater which covers about the same year period as Loyd 's solar panels about 100 miles north of Sunnyvale .
Loyd 's story is very useful to me as I 've been debating if solar panels would improve the efficiency of the solar water heater .
I 'm still not sure this was a wise financial investment , but I do like how I get free hot water when the sun is out and the hot water never runs out ( like with a tankless ) .
Anyway , for those interested in solar water heating : http : //suburbiasolarwaterheating.blogspot.com/ [ blogspot.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've written a blog on my solar water heater which covers about the same year period as Loyd's solar panels about 100 miles north of Sunnyvale.
Loyd's story is very useful to me as I've been debating if solar panels would improve the efficiency of the solar water heater.
I'm still not sure this was a wise financial investment, but I do like how I get free hot water when the sun is out and the hot water never runs out (like with a tankless).
Anyway, for those interested in solar water heating:  http://suburbiasolarwaterheating.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445927</id>
	<title>Fuzzy math!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245754020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So where did that $38,000 come from?   Did it just drop out of the sky?</p><p>Assuming you have to borrow the money, you have to subtract the interest costs from whatever savings you get.</p><p>If the loan was for 8\%, he's losing money.</p><p>And don't forget that he probably took advantage of some state or federal rebates.  That only works well for the individual iff only a few people take advantage of it.</p><p>Overall, the numbers don't look very promising.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So where did that $ 38,000 come from ?
Did it just drop out of the sky ? Assuming you have to borrow the money , you have to subtract the interest costs from whatever savings you get.If the loan was for 8 \ % , he 's losing money.And do n't forget that he probably took advantage of some state or federal rebates .
That only works well for the individual iff only a few people take advantage of it.Overall , the numbers do n't look very promising .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So where did that $38,000 come from?
Did it just drop out of the sky?Assuming you have to borrow the money, you have to subtract the interest costs from whatever savings you get.If the loan was for 8\%, he's losing money.And don't forget that he probably took advantage of some state or federal rebates.
That only works well for the individual iff only a few people take advantage of it.Overall, the numbers don't look very promising.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449221</id>
	<title>Re:Return on investment</title>
	<author>Maxo-Texas</author>
	<datestamp>1245780120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>5.7\% tax free is actually pretty studly.</p><p>Also, adjusting for wimpy inflation of 3\%...<br>3000    1    3000<br>2940    1.03    3028.2<br>2880    1.06    3055.39<br>2820    1.09    3081.49<br>2760    1.13    3106.4<br>2700    1.16    3130.04<br>2640    1.19    3152.3<br>2580    1.23    3173.07<br>2520    1.27    3192.26<br>2460    1.3    3209.74</p><p>Assuming he gets 5\% in a CD and pays<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.28\% fed tax and 10\% california tax, he'll actually end up with about 3.9\% return on his investment.</p><p>Two problems--<br>* a period of high inflation is really likely since the government has created a couple trillion bucks out of nothing.<br>* Social security issues make it likely the tax rate will rise to over 28\% (if nothing else, they may inflate him into the 36\% bracket-- he's probably already hit by AMT).</p><p>Next issue is that historically, power triples every 20 years unless you are by a hydro-electric plant or something like that.  Nuclear energy doesn't help much- we have that in Texas and it just gets charged out at the highest rate (I assume they make a higher profit when natural gas and other fuels get expensive).<br>So anyway, the 3\% inflation assumption is a bit low.  I don't think it is unreasonable to see a return curve more like this...</p><p>3000    1    3000<br>2940    1.05    3087<br>2880    1.1    3175.2<br>2820    1.16    3264.5<br>2760    1.22    3354.8<br>2700    1.28    3445.96<br>2640    1.34    3537.85<br>2580    1.41    3630.32<br>2520    1.48    3723.19<br>2460    1.55    3816.27</p><p>Which is only 5\% inflation.</p><p>I'm sure there are a gazillion problems we havn't considered.  But every dollar saved, is a dollar you don't have to pay taxes on so you get the full benefit of the dollar.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>5.7 \ % tax free is actually pretty studly.Also , adjusting for wimpy inflation of 3 \ % ...3000 1 30002940 1.03 3028.22880 1.06 3055.392820 1.09 3081.492760 1.13 3106.42700 1.16 3130.042640 1.19 3152.32580 1.23 3173.072520 1.27 3192.262460 1.3 3209.74Assuming he gets 5 \ % in a CD and pays .28 \ % fed tax and 10 \ % california tax , he 'll actually end up with about 3.9 \ % return on his investment.Two problems-- * a period of high inflation is really likely since the government has created a couple trillion bucks out of nothing .
* Social security issues make it likely the tax rate will rise to over 28 \ % ( if nothing else , they may inflate him into the 36 \ % bracket-- he 's probably already hit by AMT ) .Next issue is that historically , power triples every 20 years unless you are by a hydro-electric plant or something like that .
Nuclear energy does n't help much- we have that in Texas and it just gets charged out at the highest rate ( I assume they make a higher profit when natural gas and other fuels get expensive ) .So anyway , the 3 \ % inflation assumption is a bit low .
I do n't think it is unreasonable to see a return curve more like this...3000 1 30002940 1.05 30872880 1.1 3175.22820 1.16 3264.52760 1.22 3354.82700 1.28 3445.962640 1.34 3537.852580 1.41 3630.322520 1.48 3723.192460 1.55 3816.27Which is only 5 \ % inflation.I 'm sure there are a gazillion problems we hav n't considered .
But every dollar saved , is a dollar you do n't have to pay taxes on so you get the full benefit of the dollar .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>5.7\% tax free is actually pretty studly.Also, adjusting for wimpy inflation of 3\%...3000    1    30002940    1.03    3028.22880    1.06    3055.392820    1.09    3081.492760    1.13    3106.42700    1.16    3130.042640    1.19    3152.32580    1.23    3173.072520    1.27    3192.262460    1.3    3209.74Assuming he gets 5\% in a CD and pays .28\% fed tax and 10\% california tax, he'll actually end up with about 3.9\% return on his investment.Two problems--* a period of high inflation is really likely since the government has created a couple trillion bucks out of nothing.
* Social security issues make it likely the tax rate will rise to over 28\% (if nothing else, they may inflate him into the 36\% bracket-- he's probably already hit by AMT).Next issue is that historically, power triples every 20 years unless you are by a hydro-electric plant or something like that.
Nuclear energy doesn't help much- we have that in Texas and it just gets charged out at the highest rate (I assume they make a higher profit when natural gas and other fuels get expensive).So anyway, the 3\% inflation assumption is a bit low.
I don't think it is unreasonable to see a return curve more like this...3000    1    30002940    1.05    30872880    1.1    3175.22820    1.16    3264.52760    1.22    3354.82700    1.28    3445.962640    1.34    3537.852580    1.41    3630.322520    1.48    3723.192460    1.55    3816.27Which is only 5\% inflation.I'm sure there are a gazillion problems we havn't considered.
But every dollar saved, is a dollar you don't have to pay taxes on so you get the full benefit of the dollar.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445997</id>
	<title>Re:Industy Standard Warranties</title>
	<author>jayme0227</author>
	<datestamp>1245754320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Call it a hunch but I believe that at least some of these companies will still be in business after 25 years: Mitsubishi, Sanyo, GE, BP, Sharp.</p><p>If you're worried about your warranty, there viable companies to choose from that will likely still be around for at least as long as your warranty. It would seem that the risk in buying solar panels from one of these companies is relatively small when compared to some of the "investment vehicles" that are still being traded on the market today.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Call it a hunch but I believe that at least some of these companies will still be in business after 25 years : Mitsubishi , Sanyo , GE , BP , Sharp.If you 're worried about your warranty , there viable companies to choose from that will likely still be around for at least as long as your warranty .
It would seem that the risk in buying solar panels from one of these companies is relatively small when compared to some of the " investment vehicles " that are still being traded on the market today .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Call it a hunch but I believe that at least some of these companies will still be in business after 25 years: Mitsubishi, Sanyo, GE, BP, Sharp.If you're worried about your warranty, there viable companies to choose from that will likely still be around for at least as long as your warranty.
It would seem that the risk in buying solar panels from one of these companies is relatively small when compared to some of the "investment vehicles" that are still being traded on the market today.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445131</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28454387</id>
	<title>Where are you getting 5\%??</title>
	<author>atomic777</author>
	<datestamp>1245865560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>cause the last I checked, my money deposited in "risk-free" accounts is getting somewhere <a href="http://home.ingdirect.com/pop\_up/rateglance.html" title="ingdirect.com" rel="nofollow">between 0.5 and 1.5\% interest</a> [ingdirect.com] in these days of rampant money printing. A 5\%, tax-free return on a solar installation is looking like a mighty fine return right about now.</htmltext>
<tokenext>cause the last I checked , my money deposited in " risk-free " accounts is getting somewhere between 0.5 and 1.5 \ % interest [ ingdirect.com ] in these days of rampant money printing .
A 5 \ % , tax-free return on a solar installation is looking like a mighty fine return right about now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>cause the last I checked, my money deposited in "risk-free" accounts is getting somewhere between 0.5 and 1.5\% interest [ingdirect.com] in these days of rampant money printing.
A 5\%, tax-free return on a solar installation is looking like a mighty fine return right about now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445903</id>
	<title>Re:This is not a lot of power....</title>
	<author>syphax</author>
	<datestamp>1245753900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Dude- you use 2500 kWh a MONTH? In MAY?   Yes, you are correct, you could be more energy conscious!</p><p>According to the <a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/recs2005/c&amp;e/detailed\_tables2005c&amp;e.html" title="doe.gov">EIA residential consumption survey,</a> [doe.gov], the region with the highest electricity consumption is the South (due to A/C); a typical house there uses about 15,000 kWh / year.</p><p>15k is an average of 1250 kWh per month, but of course there's a strong seasonal component.  If you're using 3500 kWh a month, though, consider an energy audit (often free or cheap through your utility) or turning off the 24/7 toaster, or something- you're throwing money out the window, even at $0.05/kWh or whatever you're paying.</p><p>Brian</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Dude- you use 2500 kWh a MONTH ?
In MAY ?
Yes , you are correct , you could be more energy conscious ! According to the EIA residential consumption survey , [ doe.gov ] , the region with the highest electricity consumption is the South ( due to A/C ) ; a typical house there uses about 15,000 kWh / year.15k is an average of 1250 kWh per month , but of course there 's a strong seasonal component .
If you 're using 3500 kWh a month , though , consider an energy audit ( often free or cheap through your utility ) or turning off the 24/7 toaster , or something- you 're throwing money out the window , even at $ 0.05/kWh or whatever you 're paying.Brian</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dude- you use 2500 kWh a MONTH?
In MAY?
Yes, you are correct, you could be more energy conscious!According to the EIA residential consumption survey, [doe.gov], the region with the highest electricity consumption is the South (due to A/C); a typical house there uses about 15,000 kWh / year.15k is an average of 1250 kWh per month, but of course there's a strong seasonal component.
If you're using 3500 kWh a month, though, consider an energy audit (often free or cheap through your utility) or turning off the 24/7 toaster, or something- you're throwing money out the window, even at $0.05/kWh or whatever you're paying.Brian</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445389</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444719</id>
	<title>"Spousal acceptance factor"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245749520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most of the time, if you care for your family, that's the #1 factor in your decisions. Unless your ambition is one of those short-lived, Hollywood marriages.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most of the time , if you care for your family , that 's the # 1 factor in your decisions .
Unless your ambition is one of those short-lived , Hollywood marriages .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most of the time, if you care for your family, that's the #1 factor in your decisions.
Unless your ambition is one of those short-lived, Hollywood marriages.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446457</id>
	<title>Consider this vs the StockMarket</title>
	<author>Maxo-Texas</author>
	<datestamp>1245756420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If he had put $38,000 in the market 12 months ago, it would be worth a lot less.</p><p>He has a near guaranteed rate of return of 7.8\% which is the average for the stock market.<br>Further, he doesn't have to pay taxes on that return (it's money not spent, not money earned).</p><p>When he retires, he won't have to take $4,900 a year out of his 401k/ira (and pay $900 in income taxes) to pay his power bill.  (and that only gets higher going forward-- 50\% income tax is possible as we struggle to pay for social security in 15 years).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If he had put $ 38,000 in the market 12 months ago , it would be worth a lot less.He has a near guaranteed rate of return of 7.8 \ % which is the average for the stock market.Further , he does n't have to pay taxes on that return ( it 's money not spent , not money earned ) .When he retires , he wo n't have to take $ 4,900 a year out of his 401k/ira ( and pay $ 900 in income taxes ) to pay his power bill .
( and that only gets higher going forward-- 50 \ % income tax is possible as we struggle to pay for social security in 15 years ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If he had put $38,000 in the market 12 months ago, it would be worth a lot less.He has a near guaranteed rate of return of 7.8\% which is the average for the stock market.Further, he doesn't have to pay taxes on that return (it's money not spent, not money earned).When he retires, he won't have to take $4,900 a year out of his 401k/ira (and pay $900 in income taxes) to pay his power bill.
(and that only gets higher going forward-- 50\% income tax is possible as we struggle to pay for social security in 15 years).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445717</id>
	<title>I got the same results with no investment</title>
	<author>frankgod</author>
	<datestamp>1245753120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I also live in Sunnyvale and my power bill is even less than his post-solar level. The reason is that I live in a small apartment instead of a house!</p><p>Living green is nice, but living small is far better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I also live in Sunnyvale and my power bill is even less than his post-solar level .
The reason is that I live in a small apartment instead of a house ! Living green is nice , but living small is far better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I also live in Sunnyvale and my power bill is even less than his post-solar level.
The reason is that I live in a small apartment instead of a house!Living green is nice, but living small is far better.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444867</id>
	<title>10 years to get an ROI?</title>
	<author>Meor</author>
	<datestamp>1245750000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This guy is happy his wife doesn't understand numbers and is pleased with a 10 year ROI?</htmltext>
<tokenext>This guy is happy his wife does n't understand numbers and is pleased with a 10 year ROI ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This guy is happy his wife doesn't understand numbers and is pleased with a 10 year ROI?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444731</id>
	<title>SunRun</title>
	<author>syphax</author>
	<datestamp>1245749580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://www.sunrunhome.com/" title="sunrunhome.com">Affordable solar for little money down</a> [sunrunhome.com]</p><p>If you live in CA, MA, or AZ, and have a roof with decent sun exposure, please check SunRun out.</p><p>I've got nothing to do with them; I just think they have a winning method of making the cash flow of solar very attractive.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Affordable solar for little money down [ sunrunhome.com ] If you live in CA , MA , or AZ , and have a roof with decent sun exposure , please check SunRun out.I 've got nothing to do with them ; I just think they have a winning method of making the cash flow of solar very attractive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Affordable solar for little money down [sunrunhome.com]If you live in CA, MA, or AZ, and have a roof with decent sun exposure, please check SunRun out.I've got nothing to do with them; I just think they have a winning method of making the cash flow of solar very attractive.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448373</id>
	<title>$3,000/yr in electricity?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245770880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>$3000/yr in electricity?  That seems excessive to me.  I live in the SE USA in a 3500 sq ft home and my annual electricity for the last 12 months was<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... $955.  That's with 2 servers with external arrays and monitors running 24/7 in addition to a few big screen TVs, and all the other household appliances running. BTW, those servers run 6 VMs each.</p><p>Only nuclear power makes sense in my region. Not enough wind or sunshine to support either of those methods. Good thing power is cheap here. Rock on COAL!</p><p>I guess Loyd lives in Cali?  Only there is spending your money and government money considered a "savings." Going with solar water heating would probably make more sense.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 3000/yr in electricity ?
That seems excessive to me .
I live in the SE USA in a 3500 sq ft home and my annual electricity for the last 12 months was ... $ 955. That 's with 2 servers with external arrays and monitors running 24/7 in addition to a few big screen TVs , and all the other household appliances running .
BTW , those servers run 6 VMs each.Only nuclear power makes sense in my region .
Not enough wind or sunshine to support either of those methods .
Good thing power is cheap here .
Rock on COAL ! I guess Loyd lives in Cali ?
Only there is spending your money and government money considered a " savings .
" Going with solar water heating would probably make more sense .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$3000/yr in electricity?
That seems excessive to me.
I live in the SE USA in a 3500 sq ft home and my annual electricity for the last 12 months was ... $955.  That's with 2 servers with external arrays and monitors running 24/7 in addition to a few big screen TVs, and all the other household appliances running.
BTW, those servers run 6 VMs each.Only nuclear power makes sense in my region.
Not enough wind or sunshine to support either of those methods.
Good thing power is cheap here.
Rock on COAL!I guess Loyd lives in Cali?
Only there is spending your money and government money considered a "savings.
" Going with solar water heating would probably make more sense.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445851</id>
	<title>Re:Industy Standard Warranties</title>
	<author>spun</author>
	<datestamp>1245753660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, they are all lying, their panels will only last five years, and they all plan to go out of business before then. Never mind the fact that many of them have already been in business for twenty five years. It's solar, the hippies like it, therefore there must be something wrong with it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , they are all lying , their panels will only last five years , and they all plan to go out of business before then .
Never mind the fact that many of them have already been in business for twenty five years .
It 's solar , the hippies like it , therefore there must be something wrong with it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, they are all lying, their panels will only last five years, and they all plan to go out of business before then.
Never mind the fact that many of them have already been in business for twenty five years.
It's solar, the hippies like it, therefore there must be something wrong with it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445131</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28452721</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>adolf</author>
	<datestamp>1245859740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Maybe he has to turn off the home LAN/WLAN, his big screen TV and not run the dryer or microwave but it's almost certainly possible for him to stay at or below his generation capacity unless it's the dead of the night.</i></p><p>If the sun is still up, what's the point of having electricity if all that stuff is turned off?  (And, no - "running the fridge" doesn't count.  Fridge contents have been insured against power outages on every policy I've ever had, and ice is cheap and available.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe he has to turn off the home LAN/WLAN , his big screen TV and not run the dryer or microwave but it 's almost certainly possible for him to stay at or below his generation capacity unless it 's the dead of the night.If the sun is still up , what 's the point of having electricity if all that stuff is turned off ?
( And , no - " running the fridge " does n't count .
Fridge contents have been insured against power outages on every policy I 've ever had , and ice is cheap and available .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe he has to turn off the home LAN/WLAN, his big screen TV and not run the dryer or microwave but it's almost certainly possible for him to stay at or below his generation capacity unless it's the dead of the night.If the sun is still up, what's the point of having electricity if all that stuff is turned off?
(And, no - "running the fridge" doesn't count.
Fridge contents have been insured against power outages on every policy I've ever had, and ice is cheap and available.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446917</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28450059</id>
	<title>Re:No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245876180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What you are doing is discounting everything but his 3000/month. You compound it at 5\%, but refuse to discount it when you are calculating the cash outflows.</p><p>So effectively you have made the 3000/month $36000</p><p>When it should be discounted at 5\% as well.</p><p>So your argument looks good, but is invalid as you need to use the future values of the $3000/month cash flows.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What you are doing is discounting everything but his 3000/month .
You compound it at 5 \ % , but refuse to discount it when you are calculating the cash outflows.So effectively you have made the 3000/month $ 36000When it should be discounted at 5 \ % as well.So your argument looks good , but is invalid as you need to use the future values of the $ 3000/month cash flows .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What you are doing is discounting everything but his 3000/month.
You compound it at 5\%, but refuse to discount it when you are calculating the cash outflows.So effectively you have made the 3000/month $36000When it should be discounted at 5\% as well.So your argument looks good, but is invalid as you need to use the future values of the $3000/month cash flows.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28457599</id>
	<title>Re:"Spousal acceptance factor"</title>
	<author>zazenation</author>
	<datestamp>1245834000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Amen to making your family #1.</p><p>I was actually thinking more along the lines of references to increase in intensity and frequency of intimate activities between the green adopter and spouse.</p><p>I believe that because it was a G rated article, references to "Spousal acceptance" would be the correct euphemism for "She's jumping my bones regularly now, and she wears articles from Victoria's Secret to bed".</p><p>"Solar power works for me..."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Amen to making your family # 1.I was actually thinking more along the lines of references to increase in intensity and frequency of intimate activities between the green adopter and spouse.I believe that because it was a G rated article , references to " Spousal acceptance " would be the correct euphemism for " She 's jumping my bones regularly now , and she wears articles from Victoria 's Secret to bed " .
" Solar power works for me... "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Amen to making your family #1.I was actually thinking more along the lines of references to increase in intensity and frequency of intimate activities between the green adopter and spouse.I believe that because it was a G rated article, references to "Spousal acceptance" would be the correct euphemism for "She's jumping my bones regularly now, and she wears articles from Victoria's Secret to bed".
"Solar power works for me..."</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444719</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448877</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty in the face of zombies</title>
	<author>itsybitsy</author>
	<datestamp>1245776040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"<i>To all the people mocking his investment, your missing one thing. You do not know what the price of energy is going to do in the next few years [<b>when zombies rule the Earth</b>]. The guy in the article however is guaranteed a minimum amount of power each year from his solar panels at a rate he knows. (His initial investment / Life time of the panels)."</i> <b>This is very important when the zombie hordes attempt to take over your home... his solar powered electric fence is all that keeps them away from his family, except for his daughter who had the misfortune of going to college where the zombie infestation started in the first place. Anyhow, it is highly suggested that you reinvest the money saved back into an electric fence and expanding the entire solar panel installation along with a full and essential hydroponic system to keep fed during the long decades that it will take for a typical zombie infestation to work itself out. You'll need to expand the battery capacity at least ten to fifty times to make it though the nightmarish doldrums of winter months [fortunately the zombies move much slower then] and a ten fold expansion of the solar panels will increase the power generation then to the minimum needed to power the electric fences. In the summer the extra energy can be used to power a laser system to cut off zombie heads with corpse cleanup during the winter months. In The End Solar Panels can be a life saver.</b></htmltext>
<tokenext>" To all the people mocking his investment , your missing one thing .
You do not know what the price of energy is going to do in the next few years [ when zombies rule the Earth ] .
The guy in the article however is guaranteed a minimum amount of power each year from his solar panels at a rate he knows .
( His initial investment / Life time of the panels ) .
" This is very important when the zombie hordes attempt to take over your home... his solar powered electric fence is all that keeps them away from his family , except for his daughter who had the misfortune of going to college where the zombie infestation started in the first place .
Anyhow , it is highly suggested that you reinvest the money saved back into an electric fence and expanding the entire solar panel installation along with a full and essential hydroponic system to keep fed during the long decades that it will take for a typical zombie infestation to work itself out .
You 'll need to expand the battery capacity at least ten to fifty times to make it though the nightmarish doldrums of winter months [ fortunately the zombies move much slower then ] and a ten fold expansion of the solar panels will increase the power generation then to the minimum needed to power the electric fences .
In the summer the extra energy can be used to power a laser system to cut off zombie heads with corpse cleanup during the winter months .
In The End Solar Panels can be a life saver .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"To all the people mocking his investment, your missing one thing.
You do not know what the price of energy is going to do in the next few years [when zombies rule the Earth].
The guy in the article however is guaranteed a minimum amount of power each year from his solar panels at a rate he knows.
(His initial investment / Life time of the panels).
" This is very important when the zombie hordes attempt to take over your home... his solar powered electric fence is all that keeps them away from his family, except for his daughter who had the misfortune of going to college where the zombie infestation started in the first place.
Anyhow, it is highly suggested that you reinvest the money saved back into an electric fence and expanding the entire solar panel installation along with a full and essential hydroponic system to keep fed during the long decades that it will take for a typical zombie infestation to work itself out.
You'll need to expand the battery capacity at least ten to fifty times to make it though the nightmarish doldrums of winter months [fortunately the zombies move much slower then] and a ten fold expansion of the solar panels will increase the power generation then to the minimum needed to power the electric fences.
In the summer the extra energy can be used to power a laser system to cut off zombie heads with corpse cleanup during the winter months.
In The End Solar Panels can be a life saver.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28499997</id>
	<title>cheap wow gold</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246115520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Weekends to people<a href="http://www.ig2t.net/" title="ig2t.net" rel="nofollow">ig2t</a> [ig2t.net] mean that they can have a two-day <a href="http://www.wowgold4europe.net/" title="wowgold4europe.net" rel="nofollow">wowgold4europe</a> [wowgold4europe.net] good rest. For example&#239;&#188;OE people <a href="http://www.gameusd.org/" title="gameusd.org" rel="nofollow">gameusd</a> [gameusd.org] can go out to enjoy themselves or get <a href="http://www.meinwowgold.com/" title="meinwowgold.com" rel="nofollow">meinwowgold</a> [meinwowgold.com] together with relatives and friends to talk with each <a href="http://www.storeingame.net/" title="storeingame.net" rel="nofollow">storeingame</a> [storeingame.net] other or watch interesting video tapes with the <a href="http://www.speebie.org/" title="speebie.org" rel="nofollow">speebie</a> [speebie.org] whole family.<br>Everyone spends <a href="http://www.agamegold.org/" title="agamegold.org" rel="nofollow">agamegold</a> [agamegold.org] weekends in his own<a href="http://www.mmofly.org/" title="mmofly.org" rel="nofollow">mmofly</a> [mmofly.org] way. Within two days,some people can relax themselves by listening to music&#239;&#188;OE reading novels&#239;&#188;OEor watching<a href="http://www.ogeworld.org/" title="ogeworld.org" rel="nofollow">ogeworld</a> [ogeworld.org] films. Others perhaps are more active by playing basketball&#239;&#188;OEwimming or<a href="http://www.mmorpgvip.net/" title="mmorpgvip.net" rel="nofollow">mmorpgvip</a> [mmorpgvip.net] dancing. Different people have different <a href="http://www.gamesavor.net/" title="gamesavor.net" rel="nofollow">gamesavor</a> [gamesavor.net] relaxations.<br>I often spend weekends with<a href="http://www.oggsale.net/" title="oggsale.net" rel="nofollow">oggsale</a> [oggsale.net] my family or my friends. Sometimes my parents take me on a visit to their old friends. Sometimes<a href="http://www.gamersell.net/" title="gamersell.net" rel="nofollow">gamersell</a> [gamersell.net] I go to the library to study or borrow some books to<a href="http://www.mmovirtex.net/" title="mmovirtex.net" rel="nofollow">mmovirtex</a> [mmovirtex.net] gain much knowledge. I also go to see various exhibition to broaden<a href="http://www.rpg-trader.net/" title="rpg-trader.net" rel="nofollow">rpg trader</a> [rpg-trader.net] my vision. An excursion to seashore or mountain resorts is my favorite way of spending weekends. Weekends are always enjoyable for me.<br><a href="http://www.igxe.org/" title="igxe.org" rel="nofollow">igxe</a> [igxe.org] <a href="http://www.swagvault.org/" title="swagvault.org" rel="nofollow">swagvault</a> [swagvault.org] oforu <a href="http://www.wowgold-usa.org/" title="wowgold-usa.org" rel="nofollow">wowgold-usa</a> [wowgold-usa.org] <a href="http://www.ignmax.org/" title="ignmax.org" rel="nofollow">ignmax</a> [ignmax.org] <a href="http://www.wowgoldlive.net/" title="wowgoldlive.net" rel="nofollow">wowgoldlive</a> [wowgoldlive.net] <a href="http://www.brogame.net/" title="brogame.net" rel="nofollow">brogame</a> [brogame.net]  <a href="http://www.thsale.org/" title="thsale.org" rel="nofollow">thsale</a> [thsale.org] <a href="http://www.goldrocku.net/" title="goldrocku.net" rel="nofollow">GoldRockU</a> [goldrocku.net] <a href="http://www.brogame.us/" title="brogame.us" rel="nofollow">brogame</a> [brogame.us]<br>
&nbsp; <a href="http://www.swagvault.us/" title="swagvault.us" rel="nofollow">swagvault</a> [swagvault.us] <a href="http://www.goldsoon.us/" title="goldsoon.us" rel="nofollow">goldsoon</a> [goldsoon.us] <a href="http://www.oforu.us/" title="oforu.us" rel="nofollow">oforu</a> [oforu.us] <a href="http://www.igxe.us/" title="www.igxe.us" rel="nofollow">igxe</a> [www.igxe.us] <a href="http://www.thsale.us/" title="thsale.us" rel="nofollow">thsale</a> [thsale.us]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Weekends to peopleig2t [ ig2t.net ] mean that they can have a two-day wowgold4europe [ wowgold4europe.net ] good rest .
For example     OE people gameusd [ gameusd.org ] can go out to enjoy themselves or get meinwowgold [ meinwowgold.com ] together with relatives and friends to talk with each storeingame [ storeingame.net ] other or watch interesting video tapes with the speebie [ speebie.org ] whole family.Everyone spends agamegold [ agamegold.org ] weekends in his ownmmofly [ mmofly.org ] way .
Within two days,some people can relax themselves by listening to music     OE reading novels     OEor watchingogeworld [ ogeworld.org ] films .
Others perhaps are more active by playing basketball     OEwimming ormmorpgvip [ mmorpgvip.net ] dancing .
Different people have different gamesavor [ gamesavor.net ] relaxations.I often spend weekends withoggsale [ oggsale.net ] my family or my friends .
Sometimes my parents take me on a visit to their old friends .
Sometimesgamersell [ gamersell.net ] I go to the library to study or borrow some books tommovirtex [ mmovirtex.net ] gain much knowledge .
I also go to see various exhibition to broadenrpg trader [ rpg-trader.net ] my vision .
An excursion to seashore or mountain resorts is my favorite way of spending weekends .
Weekends are always enjoyable for me.igxe [ igxe.org ] swagvault [ swagvault.org ] oforu wowgold-usa [ wowgold-usa.org ] ignmax [ ignmax.org ] wowgoldlive [ wowgoldlive.net ] brogame [ brogame.net ] thsale [ thsale.org ] GoldRockU [ goldrocku.net ] brogame [ brogame.us ]   swagvault [ swagvault.us ] goldsoon [ goldsoon.us ] oforu [ oforu.us ] igxe [ www.igxe.us ] thsale [ thsale.us ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Weekends to peopleig2t [ig2t.net] mean that they can have a two-day wowgold4europe [wowgold4europe.net] good rest.
For exampleï¼OE people gameusd [gameusd.org] can go out to enjoy themselves or get meinwowgold [meinwowgold.com] together with relatives and friends to talk with each storeingame [storeingame.net] other or watch interesting video tapes with the speebie [speebie.org] whole family.Everyone spends agamegold [agamegold.org] weekends in his ownmmofly [mmofly.org] way.
Within two days,some people can relax themselves by listening to musicï¼OE reading novelsï¼OEor watchingogeworld [ogeworld.org] films.
Others perhaps are more active by playing basketballï¼OEwimming ormmorpgvip [mmorpgvip.net] dancing.
Different people have different gamesavor [gamesavor.net] relaxations.I often spend weekends withoggsale [oggsale.net] my family or my friends.
Sometimes my parents take me on a visit to their old friends.
Sometimesgamersell [gamersell.net] I go to the library to study or borrow some books tommovirtex [mmovirtex.net] gain much knowledge.
I also go to see various exhibition to broadenrpg trader [rpg-trader.net] my vision.
An excursion to seashore or mountain resorts is my favorite way of spending weekends.
Weekends are always enjoyable for me.igxe [igxe.org] swagvault [swagvault.org] oforu wowgold-usa [wowgold-usa.org] ignmax [ignmax.org] wowgoldlive [wowgoldlive.net] brogame [brogame.net]  thsale [thsale.org] GoldRockU [goldrocku.net] brogame [brogame.us]
  swagvault [swagvault.us] goldsoon [goldsoon.us] oforu [oforu.us] igxe [www.igxe.us] thsale [thsale.us]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445541</id>
	<title>I'm in my 5th year and have statistics</title>
	<author>skidisk</author>
	<datestamp>1245752460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I deployed solar panels when I replaced my roof in 2004; the total out of pocket cost after state rebates and federal and state taxes was $14,612. The system generates about 15 KwH on a good day; I live in a tract home in Mountain View, CA. So far, the panels have generated 19,225 KwH, which reduced my energy bill by $10,392 as of May, 2009. I've not seen the expected degradation in the power production, but it's difficult to measure due to changes in the weather -- it's entirely possible that 2004-2005 were cloudier than 2007-2008, or something like that. In any event, the system has delivered between 3819 and 3930 KwH every year.  I'm extraordinarily happy with the way this has worked out.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I deployed solar panels when I replaced my roof in 2004 ; the total out of pocket cost after state rebates and federal and state taxes was $ 14,612 .
The system generates about 15 KwH on a good day ; I live in a tract home in Mountain View , CA .
So far , the panels have generated 19,225 KwH , which reduced my energy bill by $ 10,392 as of May , 2009 .
I 've not seen the expected degradation in the power production , but it 's difficult to measure due to changes in the weather -- it 's entirely possible that 2004-2005 were cloudier than 2007-2008 , or something like that .
In any event , the system has delivered between 3819 and 3930 KwH every year .
I 'm extraordinarily happy with the way this has worked out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I deployed solar panels when I replaced my roof in 2004; the total out of pocket cost after state rebates and federal and state taxes was $14,612.
The system generates about 15 KwH on a good day; I live in a tract home in Mountain View, CA.
So far, the panels have generated 19,225 KwH, which reduced my energy bill by $10,392 as of May, 2009.
I've not seen the expected degradation in the power production, but it's difficult to measure due to changes in the weather -- it's entirely possible that 2004-2005 were cloudier than 2007-2008, or something like that.
In any event, the system has delivered between 3819 and 3930 KwH every year.
I'm extraordinarily happy with the way this has worked out.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446681</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>atramentum</author>
	<datestamp>1245757440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You are forgetting that if energy prices go up, so does the cost of solar panels.  Current solar panel technology will always be a wash, because it takes as much energy to produce them as they will gather in their entire lifetime.

The only benefit is in baseless government backing, so if you make enough money to offset the cost in tax breaks, it works.  There is certainly value in knowing you will have power - but there are much better ways to get it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You are forgetting that if energy prices go up , so does the cost of solar panels .
Current solar panel technology will always be a wash , because it takes as much energy to produce them as they will gather in their entire lifetime .
The only benefit is in baseless government backing , so if you make enough money to offset the cost in tax breaks , it works .
There is certainly value in knowing you will have power - but there are much better ways to get it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are forgetting that if energy prices go up, so does the cost of solar panels.
Current solar panel technology will always be a wash, because it takes as much energy to produce them as they will gather in their entire lifetime.
The only benefit is in baseless government backing, so if you make enough money to offset the cost in tax breaks, it works.
There is certainly value in knowing you will have power - but there are much better ways to get it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448685</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245774420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"I thought when the grid went down that synced panel set ups just cut them selves off from the grid, not that they cut them selves off from powering your home."</p><p>It depends.  With a grid-tie, non-hybrid system, the panel-provided power shuts off entirely from everything.  With a hybrid grid-tie, you can still keep some (usually not all unless you have a giant system or unless you also have a generator) stuff running.</p><p>The problem is that solar panels produce during those peaks, but if you need more watts than they're producing, it just wouldn't work.  So with a hybrid system, you introduce a battery bank (more expense, gotta maintain 'em, they're bulky, etc.) to store some energy in for a grid outage, and often also have a backup generator for when the battery bank drains too low or if you need more watts than your solar + battery bank alone can provide.</p><p>Lots more expensive than a simple grid-tie-only set-up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" I thought when the grid went down that synced panel set ups just cut them selves off from the grid , not that they cut them selves off from powering your home .
" It depends .
With a grid-tie , non-hybrid system , the panel-provided power shuts off entirely from everything .
With a hybrid grid-tie , you can still keep some ( usually not all unless you have a giant system or unless you also have a generator ) stuff running.The problem is that solar panels produce during those peaks , but if you need more watts than they 're producing , it just would n't work .
So with a hybrid system , you introduce a battery bank ( more expense , got ta maintain 'em , they 're bulky , etc .
) to store some energy in for a grid outage , and often also have a backup generator for when the battery bank drains too low or if you need more watts than your solar + battery bank alone can provide.Lots more expensive than a simple grid-tie-only set-up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"I thought when the grid went down that synced panel set ups just cut them selves off from the grid, not that they cut them selves off from powering your home.
"It depends.
With a grid-tie, non-hybrid system, the panel-provided power shuts off entirely from everything.
With a hybrid grid-tie, you can still keep some (usually not all unless you have a giant system or unless you also have a generator) stuff running.The problem is that solar panels produce during those peaks, but if you need more watts than they're producing, it just wouldn't work.
So with a hybrid system, you introduce a battery bank (more expense, gotta maintain 'em, they're bulky, etc.
) to store some energy in for a grid outage, and often also have a backup generator for when the battery bank drains too low or if you need more watts than your solar + battery bank alone can provide.Lots more expensive than a simple grid-tie-only set-up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445239</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28457439</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>Tokerat</author>
	<datestamp>1245876600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Don't tell me we need a military bigger than the rest of the world combined to protect us from Mexico and Canada.</p></div><p>Since wars aren't started by marching armies of archers and horse cavalry anymore, I'd say we need a large military to protect us from just about anyone. Now, what we decide to use that military for when no one is attacking us is another story...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't tell me we need a military bigger than the rest of the world combined to protect us from Mexico and Canada.Since wars are n't started by marching armies of archers and horse cavalry anymore , I 'd say we need a large military to protect us from just about anyone .
Now , what we decide to use that military for when no one is attacking us is another story.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't tell me we need a military bigger than the rest of the world combined to protect us from Mexico and Canada.Since wars aren't started by marching armies of archers and horse cavalry anymore, I'd say we need a large military to protect us from just about anyone.
Now, what we decide to use that military for when no one is attacking us is another story...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445479</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444437</id>
	<title>Re:Solar panel longevity</title>
	<author>eldavojohn</author>
	<datestamp>1245748560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>So maybe it'll pay for itself in 12 years, but how long before those panels need to be replaced? That's what we really need to know in order to decide if he's actually saving money.</p></div><p>Well if you want to be a financial stickler, you might want to factor in the standard rate of inflation if it's going to be 12 years.  The funny thing is that inflation has <a href="http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation\_Rate/CurrentInflation.asp" title="inflationdata.com" rel="nofollow">been going down in the past three months according to this site</a> [inflationdata.com].  But you need to remember the pert formula and assume that most of the time you're looking at an average of what about 3\% inflation per year?  On your original investment of $3800, right?  So that's like a 42\% increase in the value of that 2008 money assuming inflation continues at an expected yearly rate and a bank will give you that return.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So maybe it 'll pay for itself in 12 years , but how long before those panels need to be replaced ?
That 's what we really need to know in order to decide if he 's actually saving money.Well if you want to be a financial stickler , you might want to factor in the standard rate of inflation if it 's going to be 12 years .
The funny thing is that inflation has been going down in the past three months according to this site [ inflationdata.com ] .
But you need to remember the pert formula and assume that most of the time you 're looking at an average of what about 3 \ % inflation per year ?
On your original investment of $ 3800 , right ?
So that 's like a 42 \ % increase in the value of that 2008 money assuming inflation continues at an expected yearly rate and a bank will give you that return .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So maybe it'll pay for itself in 12 years, but how long before those panels need to be replaced?
That's what we really need to know in order to decide if he's actually saving money.Well if you want to be a financial stickler, you might want to factor in the standard rate of inflation if it's going to be 12 years.
The funny thing is that inflation has been going down in the past three months according to this site [inflationdata.com].
But you need to remember the pert formula and assume that most of the time you're looking at an average of what about 3\% inflation per year?
On your original investment of $3800, right?
So that's like a 42\% increase in the value of that 2008 money assuming inflation continues at an expected yearly rate and a bank will give you that return.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446499</id>
	<title>Re:Return on investment</title>
	<author>siriuskase</author>
	<datestamp>1245756600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Thanks for running the numbers.  I was wondering if anyone had a business calculator on their desk.

Have you run the numbers accounting for the fact that if you use solar shingles, you don't need to use regular shingles?  If you install a solar roof instead of a standard roof, rather than on top of a perfectly good existing roof, the savings would be significant.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Thanks for running the numbers .
I was wondering if anyone had a business calculator on their desk .
Have you run the numbers accounting for the fact that if you use solar shingles , you do n't need to use regular shingles ?
If you install a solar roof instead of a standard roof , rather than on top of a perfectly good existing roof , the savings would be significant .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thanks for running the numbers.
I was wondering if anyone had a business calculator on their desk.
Have you run the numbers accounting for the fact that if you use solar shingles, you don't need to use regular shingles?
If you install a solar roof instead of a standard roof, rather than on top of a perfectly good existing roof, the savings would be significant.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445749</id>
	<title>Re:No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>syphax</author>
	<datestamp>1245753240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd say the same for electricity prices...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd say the same for electricity prices.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd say the same for electricity prices...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446535</id>
	<title>WTF is this madness?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245756780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I takes about as much energy to produce a solar panel as it will generate in it's lifetime.  It's not "going green" at all, just an intelligent way of passing off an expensive product to a populace that doesn't understand.

Shielding from heat while generating power with solar panels in the summer makes great sense, but that is a niche solution for one energy problem.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I takes about as much energy to produce a solar panel as it will generate in it 's lifetime .
It 's not " going green " at all , just an intelligent way of passing off an expensive product to a populace that does n't understand .
Shielding from heat while generating power with solar panels in the summer makes great sense , but that is a niche solution for one energy problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I takes about as much energy to produce a solar panel as it will generate in it's lifetime.
It's not "going green" at all, just an intelligent way of passing off an expensive product to a populace that doesn't understand.
Shielding from heat while generating power with solar panels in the summer makes great sense, but that is a niche solution for one energy problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446429</id>
	<title>Large seasonal power output variation</title>
	<author>Tweenk</author>
	<datestamp>1245756240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Solar panels on the roof are great, and if I lived in a hotter climate I would probably look into buying some, but please not use this story as support for "we don't need centralized energy generation". I'll show you why. Look at the chart "monthly output" on this page: <a href="http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2338837,00.asp" title="extremetech.com">http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2338837,00.asp</a> [extremetech.com]</p><p>In December, the panels generate only about 20\% of what they do in July. A five-fold variation is a BIG one. He obviously could not disconnect himself from the grid - he had to rely on an external power source during the whole winter. There is no storage technology to alleviate this - right now you simply cannot store large amounts of energy for 6 months with anything resembling decent efficiency. That's why we need a mix of energy sources, and it's rather unlikely that we will ever be able to satisfy our energy needs with 100\% renewables.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Solar panels on the roof are great , and if I lived in a hotter climate I would probably look into buying some , but please not use this story as support for " we do n't need centralized energy generation " .
I 'll show you why .
Look at the chart " monthly output " on this page : http : //www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2338837,00.asp [ extremetech.com ] In December , the panels generate only about 20 \ % of what they do in July .
A five-fold variation is a BIG one .
He obviously could not disconnect himself from the grid - he had to rely on an external power source during the whole winter .
There is no storage technology to alleviate this - right now you simply can not store large amounts of energy for 6 months with anything resembling decent efficiency .
That 's why we need a mix of energy sources , and it 's rather unlikely that we will ever be able to satisfy our energy needs with 100 \ % renewables .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Solar panels on the roof are great, and if I lived in a hotter climate I would probably look into buying some, but please not use this story as support for "we don't need centralized energy generation".
I'll show you why.
Look at the chart "monthly output" on this page: http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2338837,00.asp [extremetech.com]In December, the panels generate only about 20\% of what they do in July.
A five-fold variation is a BIG one.
He obviously could not disconnect himself from the grid - he had to rely on an external power source during the whole winter.
There is no storage technology to alleviate this - right now you simply cannot store large amounts of energy for 6 months with anything resembling decent efficiency.
That's why we need a mix of energy sources, and it's rather unlikely that we will ever be able to satisfy our energy needs with 100\% renewables.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445761</id>
	<title>Cheaper, Greener ways to improve your house</title>
	<author>Laoping</author>
	<datestamp>1245753300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Now I don't want to criticize to harshly, but I think he could have done been much more green for less money. Now the obvious thing he could do would be to downsize his house once his kids are a ways. How big of a house do two people need.</p><p>Apart from that there are several other cheaper things you can do. I have tried to "Green" up my house a lot too, however I live in Minnesota so solar panels are even a worst investment. But here goes.. list of cheaper green things that I do.</p><p>1. When a bulb goes out I replace it with a CFL. hen can be expensive so when I see them on sale for a $1 each I grab a few. I do not recommend replacing all you light bulbs at once because that gets expensive, but when one goes out, go for it.</p><p>2. New windows - this was my most expensive energy improvement. $9,000, but it did make my house quieter and drop my heating bill by 45\%... My old windows will really bad.</p><p>3. My furnace and A/C.... probably don't need that efficient of a furnace where he lives, but in Minnesota, I am rocking the 95\% efficient furnace. The furnace and new windows dropped my worst heating bill (January) from $240 to $105. I save between 500 and 600 a year in heating. (Again my windows were REALLY bad)</p><p>4. Whole House Fan.. I got one from http://www.airscapefans.com/</p><p>You turn off your A/C at night, and pull in fresh air. It uses much less power than you A/C, on low the smallest model only uses 38 watts. And for a cost between $500 - $1300, they do not hurt the wallet too much.</p><p>Well anyway..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Now I do n't want to criticize to harshly , but I think he could have done been much more green for less money .
Now the obvious thing he could do would be to downsize his house once his kids are a ways .
How big of a house do two people need.Apart from that there are several other cheaper things you can do .
I have tried to " Green " up my house a lot too , however I live in Minnesota so solar panels are even a worst investment .
But here goes.. list of cheaper green things that I do.1 .
When a bulb goes out I replace it with a CFL .
hen can be expensive so when I see them on sale for a $ 1 each I grab a few .
I do not recommend replacing all you light bulbs at once because that gets expensive , but when one goes out , go for it.2 .
New windows - this was my most expensive energy improvement .
$ 9,000 , but it did make my house quieter and drop my heating bill by 45 \ % ... My old windows will really bad.3 .
My furnace and A/C.... probably do n't need that efficient of a furnace where he lives , but in Minnesota , I am rocking the 95 \ % efficient furnace .
The furnace and new windows dropped my worst heating bill ( January ) from $ 240 to $ 105 .
I save between 500 and 600 a year in heating .
( Again my windows were REALLY bad ) 4 .
Whole House Fan.. I got one from http : //www.airscapefans.com/You turn off your A/C at night , and pull in fresh air .
It uses much less power than you A/C , on low the smallest model only uses 38 watts .
And for a cost between $ 500 - $ 1300 , they do not hurt the wallet too much.Well anyway. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now I don't want to criticize to harshly, but I think he could have done been much more green for less money.
Now the obvious thing he could do would be to downsize his house once his kids are a ways.
How big of a house do two people need.Apart from that there are several other cheaper things you can do.
I have tried to "Green" up my house a lot too, however I live in Minnesota so solar panels are even a worst investment.
But here goes.. list of cheaper green things that I do.1.
When a bulb goes out I replace it with a CFL.
hen can be expensive so when I see them on sale for a $1 each I grab a few.
I do not recommend replacing all you light bulbs at once because that gets expensive, but when one goes out, go for it.2.
New windows - this was my most expensive energy improvement.
$9,000, but it did make my house quieter and drop my heating bill by 45\%... My old windows will really bad.3.
My furnace and A/C.... probably don't need that efficient of a furnace where he lives, but in Minnesota, I am rocking the 95\% efficient furnace.
The furnace and new windows dropped my worst heating bill (January) from $240 to $105.
I save between 500 and 600 a year in heating.
(Again my windows were REALLY bad)4.
Whole House Fan.. I got one from http://www.airscapefans.com/You turn off your A/C at night, and pull in fresh air.
It uses much less power than you A/C, on low the smallest model only uses 38 watts.
And for a cost between $500 - $1300, they do not hurt the wallet too much.Well anyway..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445457</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245752100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the price of electricity jumps, then economies of scale will drive the price of the panels down, and you and I will buy brand new panels, for less than he paid for his old clunkers, right when the cost of electricity really makes it worthwhile.</p><p>It never pays to be an early adopter.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the price of electricity jumps , then economies of scale will drive the price of the panels down , and you and I will buy brand new panels , for less than he paid for his old clunkers , right when the cost of electricity really makes it worthwhile.It never pays to be an early adopter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the price of electricity jumps, then economies of scale will drive the price of the panels down, and you and I will buy brand new panels, for less than he paid for his old clunkers, right when the cost of electricity really makes it worthwhile.It never pays to be an early adopter.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445239</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>Altus</author>
	<datestamp>1245751320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I thought when the grid went down that synced panel set ups just cut them selves off from the grid, not that they cut them selves off from powering your home.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I thought when the grid went down that synced panel set ups just cut them selves off from the grid , not that they cut them selves off from powering your home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I thought when the grid went down that synced panel set ups just cut them selves off from the grid, not that they cut them selves off from powering your home.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445389</id>
	<title>This is not a lot of power....</title>
	<author>tacokill</author>
	<datestamp>1245751800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>While I am impressed at this project, all it proves to me is that solar is a LONG way off from a practical, cost effective implementation.   Take a look at how much electricity was generated out of his system each month.   He says numbers anywhere from 258 KWh (Dec) up to around 1100 KWh (July).
<br>
<br>
Last month (May), I used about 2500 KWh in my 2000 sq ft home.   Yes, I am sure I can be more energy conscious but as you can see, the solar panels would hardly make a dent in my electricity bill compared to the initial investment cost.   And what if it's cloudy like the recent 25 straight days of rain we had in May?  Heck, 2500 KWh is not even my worst month.  We still have July and August coming up.   I can easily hit 3500 KWh during those months.
<br>
<br>
What that tells me is this:   No matter how you slice it, the electric company in my area produces cheap electricity a <b>LOT</b> easier than I can on my rooftop.
<br>
<br>
The other two things I noticed are:  1)  he consumes an unusually low amount of energy and 2) PG&amp;E is screwing it's customers with those rates he lists.  Wow.  Go build some power plants, people.  Your NIMBY attitude is making it more expensive.</htmltext>
<tokenext>While I am impressed at this project , all it proves to me is that solar is a LONG way off from a practical , cost effective implementation .
Take a look at how much electricity was generated out of his system each month .
He says numbers anywhere from 258 KWh ( Dec ) up to around 1100 KWh ( July ) .
Last month ( May ) , I used about 2500 KWh in my 2000 sq ft home .
Yes , I am sure I can be more energy conscious but as you can see , the solar panels would hardly make a dent in my electricity bill compared to the initial investment cost .
And what if it 's cloudy like the recent 25 straight days of rain we had in May ?
Heck , 2500 KWh is not even my worst month .
We still have July and August coming up .
I can easily hit 3500 KWh during those months .
What that tells me is this : No matter how you slice it , the electric company in my area produces cheap electricity a LOT easier than I can on my rooftop .
The other two things I noticed are : 1 ) he consumes an unusually low amount of energy and 2 ) PG&amp;E is screwing it 's customers with those rates he lists .
Wow. Go build some power plants , people .
Your NIMBY attitude is making it more expensive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While I am impressed at this project, all it proves to me is that solar is a LONG way off from a practical, cost effective implementation.
Take a look at how much electricity was generated out of his system each month.
He says numbers anywhere from 258 KWh (Dec) up to around 1100 KWh (July).
Last month (May), I used about 2500 KWh in my 2000 sq ft home.
Yes, I am sure I can be more energy conscious but as you can see, the solar panels would hardly make a dent in my electricity bill compared to the initial investment cost.
And what if it's cloudy like the recent 25 straight days of rain we had in May?
Heck, 2500 KWh is not even my worst month.
We still have July and August coming up.
I can easily hit 3500 KWh during those months.
What that tells me is this:   No matter how you slice it, the electric company in my area produces cheap electricity a LOT easier than I can on my rooftop.
The other two things I noticed are:  1)  he consumes an unusually low amount of energy and 2) PG&amp;E is screwing it's customers with those rates he lists.
Wow.  Go build some power plants, people.
Your NIMBY attitude is making it more expensive.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444889</id>
	<title>Re:12 year payback?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245750060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Actually, rather than taxing the living shit out of fossil fuel consumption, you could simply let the alternative energy developers continue to work on refining their tech until it is cheap enough to make sense.  I think that's a much better solution than artificially jacking up prices for the competition thereby giving alternative energy sources absolutely NO incentive to improve cost of efficiency.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , rather than taxing the living shit out of fossil fuel consumption , you could simply let the alternative energy developers continue to work on refining their tech until it is cheap enough to make sense .
I think that 's a much better solution than artificially jacking up prices for the competition thereby giving alternative energy sources absolutely NO incentive to improve cost of efficiency .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, rather than taxing the living shit out of fossil fuel consumption, you could simply let the alternative energy developers continue to work on refining their tech until it is cheap enough to make sense.
I think that's a much better solution than artificially jacking up prices for the competition thereby giving alternative energy sources absolutely NO incentive to improve cost of efficiency.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444573</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</id>
	<title>Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>GammaStream</author>
	<datestamp>1245749040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>To all the people mocking his investment, your missing one thing. You do not know what the price of energy is going to do in the next few years. The guy in the article however is guaranteed a minimum amount of power each year from his solar panels at a rate he knows. (His initial investment / Life time of the panels). If the companies decide to hike the prices in two years time due a deterioration in Gulf politics for example, he is sheltered from its effects and lets be honest it's very unlikely the price is going to go down per kwh. He is also sheltered to a certain extent from the failure of the power network so if a situation does arise where there are rolling blackouts again, he knows he will a least have some electricity each day. One of the things that people constantly underestimate the price of is certainty.</htmltext>
<tokenext>To all the people mocking his investment , your missing one thing .
You do not know what the price of energy is going to do in the next few years .
The guy in the article however is guaranteed a minimum amount of power each year from his solar panels at a rate he knows .
( His initial investment / Life time of the panels ) .
If the companies decide to hike the prices in two years time due a deterioration in Gulf politics for example , he is sheltered from its effects and lets be honest it 's very unlikely the price is going to go down per kwh .
He is also sheltered to a certain extent from the failure of the power network so if a situation does arise where there are rolling blackouts again , he knows he will a least have some electricity each day .
One of the things that people constantly underestimate the price of is certainty .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To all the people mocking his investment, your missing one thing.
You do not know what the price of energy is going to do in the next few years.
The guy in the article however is guaranteed a minimum amount of power each year from his solar panels at a rate he knows.
(His initial investment / Life time of the panels).
If the companies decide to hike the prices in two years time due a deterioration in Gulf politics for example, he is sheltered from its effects and lets be honest it's very unlikely the price is going to go down per kwh.
He is also sheltered to a certain extent from the failure of the power network so if a situation does arise where there are rolling blackouts again, he knows he will a least have some electricity each day.
One of the things that people constantly underestimate the price of is certainty.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28477109</id>
	<title>Re:If anyone is interested in a solar water heater</title>
	<author>peas\_n\_carrots</author>
	<datestamp>1245948360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I too have a solar hot water system.  Mine uses evacuated tubes which are more efficient at capturing heat than your flat plate collectors (from what I can tell in your photo).<br>
<br>
With the heavy amount of sun in TX, the solar thermal collector provides 100\% of our hot water for about 8 months of the year (Apr - Nov).  The coldest 4 months average about 50\% of our hot water supply.  In the summer the tank easily exceeds 170 deg F.  As comparison, scalding temp is about 120F and most hot water heaters are set to 120-130F for energy conservation purposes.  Don't worry, a thermostatic valve mixes in cold water at the tank's exit point so that the superheated water doesn't reach the faucet.  Based on my rough calculations, the system will pay for itself in 6-7 years which is pretty good.  After that it's money in my pocket!<br>
<br>
Solar thermal has its optimal and sub-optimal locations, as with any resource.  Northern states would not benefit as much due to the colder climates.  I am always surprised in the winter when the system can get the water up to 90F when it's 35F outside (on a sunny winter day).  But with lower temps and more overcast days in some northern climates, solar thermal would take alot longer to pay for itself.  Now if they can just figure out a way to extract energy from snow...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I too have a solar hot water system .
Mine uses evacuated tubes which are more efficient at capturing heat than your flat plate collectors ( from what I can tell in your photo ) .
With the heavy amount of sun in TX , the solar thermal collector provides 100 \ % of our hot water for about 8 months of the year ( Apr - Nov ) .
The coldest 4 months average about 50 \ % of our hot water supply .
In the summer the tank easily exceeds 170 deg F. As comparison , scalding temp is about 120F and most hot water heaters are set to 120-130F for energy conservation purposes .
Do n't worry , a thermostatic valve mixes in cold water at the tank 's exit point so that the superheated water does n't reach the faucet .
Based on my rough calculations , the system will pay for itself in 6-7 years which is pretty good .
After that it 's money in my pocket !
Solar thermal has its optimal and sub-optimal locations , as with any resource .
Northern states would not benefit as much due to the colder climates .
I am always surprised in the winter when the system can get the water up to 90F when it 's 35F outside ( on a sunny winter day ) .
But with lower temps and more overcast days in some northern climates , solar thermal would take alot longer to pay for itself .
Now if they can just figure out a way to extract energy from snow.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I too have a solar hot water system.
Mine uses evacuated tubes which are more efficient at capturing heat than your flat plate collectors (from what I can tell in your photo).
With the heavy amount of sun in TX, the solar thermal collector provides 100\% of our hot water for about 8 months of the year (Apr - Nov).
The coldest 4 months average about 50\% of our hot water supply.
In the summer the tank easily exceeds 170 deg F.  As comparison, scalding temp is about 120F and most hot water heaters are set to 120-130F for energy conservation purposes.
Don't worry, a thermostatic valve mixes in cold water at the tank's exit point so that the superheated water doesn't reach the faucet.
Based on my rough calculations, the system will pay for itself in 6-7 years which is pretty good.
After that it's money in my pocket!
Solar thermal has its optimal and sub-optimal locations, as with any resource.
Northern states would not benefit as much due to the colder climates.
I am always surprised in the winter when the system can get the water up to 90F when it's 35F outside (on a sunny winter day).
But with lower temps and more overcast days in some northern climates, solar thermal would take alot longer to pay for itself.
Now if they can just figure out a way to extract energy from snow...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445183</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446109</id>
	<title>Re:This is not a lot of power....</title>
	<author>not-my-real-name</author>
	<datestamp>1245754860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Then it doesn't make sense for *you* to put solar on your roof.  However, just because it doesn't make sense for you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense for him.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Then it does n't make sense for * you * to put solar on your roof .
However , just because it does n't make sense for you does n't mean it does n't make sense for him .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then it doesn't make sense for *you* to put solar on your roof.
However, just because it doesn't make sense for you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense for him.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445389</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355</id>
	<title>Solar panel longevity</title>
	<author>royallthefourth</author>
	<datestamp>1245748200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>So maybe it'll pay for itself in 12 years, but how long before those panels need to be replaced? That's what we really need to know in order to decide if he's actually saving money.</htmltext>
<tokenext>So maybe it 'll pay for itself in 12 years , but how long before those panels need to be replaced ?
That 's what we really need to know in order to decide if he 's actually saving money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So maybe it'll pay for itself in 12 years, but how long before those panels need to be replaced?
That's what we really need to know in order to decide if he's actually saving money.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445169</id>
	<title>$250 a month savings on electricity?!?!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245751080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If he's spending $3000 a year on electricity, I imagine there are lots of better ways to save money and conserve power.  That's $250 a month.  Even a small grow operation, electric heating in the winter and air conditioning in the summer doesn't come close to that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If he 's spending $ 3000 a year on electricity , I imagine there are lots of better ways to save money and conserve power .
That 's $ 250 a month .
Even a small grow operation , electric heating in the winter and air conditioning in the summer does n't come close to that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If he's spending $3000 a year on electricity, I imagine there are lots of better ways to save money and conserve power.
That's $250 a month.
Even a small grow operation, electric heating in the winter and air conditioning in the summer doesn't come close to that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444959</id>
	<title>Re:No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245750300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Why people still routinely neglect compound interesting I'll never know.</p><p>If he took that $38,000 and put it in a long term investment at a mere 5\%, he'd had 68242.54 at the end of 12 years.</p><p>Yes, it's green, yes, it's cool, but no, he's not saving money.</p></div><p>Except you're forgetting that if he did that he'd still have to pay the electrical bill or at least apparently 3.000 more a year...which he doesn't have to now..<br>I'll leave it to you to conclude if 68.000 - 12*3.000 is more or less than 38.000</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why people still routinely neglect compound interesting I 'll never know.If he took that $ 38,000 and put it in a long term investment at a mere 5 \ % , he 'd had 68242.54 at the end of 12 years.Yes , it 's green , yes , it 's cool , but no , he 's not saving money.Except you 're forgetting that if he did that he 'd still have to pay the electrical bill or at least apparently 3.000 more a year...which he does n't have to now..I 'll leave it to you to conclude if 68.000 - 12 * 3.000 is more or less than 38.000</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why people still routinely neglect compound interesting I'll never know.If he took that $38,000 and put it in a long term investment at a mere 5\%, he'd had 68242.54 at the end of 12 years.Yes, it's green, yes, it's cool, but no, he's not saving money.Except you're forgetting that if he did that he'd still have to pay the electrical bill or at least apparently 3.000 more a year...which he doesn't have to now..I'll leave it to you to conclude if 68.000 - 12*3.000 is more or less than 38.000
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445675</id>
	<title>One thing is missing though:</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1245753000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What type of cells are these? Are they already these new super-cheap printable ones, including the lenses on top of them, and the higher efficiency types?</p><p>I <em>will</em> switch my car and house energy to 100\% solar, in the next 10 years. No doubt about that. So I hope I will get these new cells. I mean think of a price of $3800 instead of $38000, and double the efficiency. Anyone not buying them would be stupid, because it would be the cheapest energy you could get.</p><p>I just hope they will print those cells on the cars too. In case you are far away from home, your batteries are empty, and maybe there isn't even a solar-powered power outlet in the area...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What type of cells are these ?
Are they already these new super-cheap printable ones , including the lenses on top of them , and the higher efficiency types ? I will switch my car and house energy to 100 \ % solar , in the next 10 years .
No doubt about that .
So I hope I will get these new cells .
I mean think of a price of $ 3800 instead of $ 38000 , and double the efficiency .
Anyone not buying them would be stupid , because it would be the cheapest energy you could get.I just hope they will print those cells on the cars too .
In case you are far away from home , your batteries are empty , and maybe there is n't even a solar-powered power outlet in the area.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What type of cells are these?
Are they already these new super-cheap printable ones, including the lenses on top of them, and the higher efficiency types?I will switch my car and house energy to 100\% solar, in the next 10 years.
No doubt about that.
So I hope I will get these new cells.
I mean think of a price of $3800 instead of $38000, and double the efficiency.
Anyone not buying them would be stupid, because it would be the cheapest energy you could get.I just hope they will print those cells on the cars too.
In case you are far away from home, your batteries are empty, and maybe there isn't even a solar-powered power outlet in the area...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445607</id>
	<title>Re:Going green takes some green.</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1245752700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are state program, federal incentives.<br>SO thre are avenues, but yes, they'll cost you money. Shocking.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are state program , federal incentives.SO thre are avenues , but yes , they 'll cost you money .
Shocking .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are state program, federal incentives.SO thre are avenues, but yes, they'll cost you money.
Shocking.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445005</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448947</id>
	<title>Re:No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245776640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What if he takes the $35000 left over after a year of not getting solar panels and invests that instead?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What if he takes the $ 35000 left over after a year of not getting solar panels and invests that instead ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What if he takes the $35000 left over after a year of not getting solar panels and invests that instead?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445121</id>
	<title>Breakeven is longer than 12 years</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245750960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The system would need to be 100\% maintenance free to have a 12 year break-even. And, no on-the-grid based innovation can show up that provides less expensive power in those 12 years for the case to be valid. Still, the feel-good, do-good and be proud of what you accomplished factor make this interesting and satisfying.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The system would need to be 100 \ % maintenance free to have a 12 year break-even .
And , no on-the-grid based innovation can show up that provides less expensive power in those 12 years for the case to be valid .
Still , the feel-good , do-good and be proud of what you accomplished factor make this interesting and satisfying .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The system would need to be 100\% maintenance free to have a 12 year break-even.
And, no on-the-grid based innovation can show up that provides less expensive power in those 12 years for the case to be valid.
Still, the feel-good, do-good and be proud of what you accomplished factor make this interesting and satisfying.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>pixelpusher220</author>
	<datestamp>1245751020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Actually, he probably won't have any electricity when the grid is out.  We just went to an alternative energy show this weekend and learned the following:<br> <br>

There are 3 types of systems for connecting to the grid:
<br> <br>
Off-grid - self explanatory<br> <br>

Hybrid - can use battery power when the grid is out<br> <br>

Sync'd - they must be sync'd so that when the grid is out, the power from the panels is not used..otherwise you'd be trying to feed the grid yourself.<br> <br>


The last is the most common setup since the idea is to conserve electricity usage, not replace the need for the grid.   If all the panels in a neighborhood were feeding energy into the, now dark, grid imagine the power company technician trying to work with the wires that are 'live' from the client side.  They could shut off power from the distribution source, but it would still live from the residences preventing it from being safe.<br> <br>
I imagine it would be bad to run A/C stuff inverted from a variable DC line as well.  If you are trying to run normal household stuff straight off the power output of the panels, as it gets later in the day, you'd start getting your own 'brownouts' in the house wouldn't you?  And since this guys setup never produced more power than he needed it was always below demand.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , he probably wo n't have any electricity when the grid is out .
We just went to an alternative energy show this weekend and learned the following : There are 3 types of systems for connecting to the grid : Off-grid - self explanatory Hybrid - can use battery power when the grid is out Sync 'd - they must be sync 'd so that when the grid is out , the power from the panels is not used..otherwise you 'd be trying to feed the grid yourself .
The last is the most common setup since the idea is to conserve electricity usage , not replace the need for the grid .
If all the panels in a neighborhood were feeding energy into the , now dark , grid imagine the power company technician trying to work with the wires that are 'live ' from the client side .
They could shut off power from the distribution source , but it would still live from the residences preventing it from being safe .
I imagine it would be bad to run A/C stuff inverted from a variable DC line as well .
If you are trying to run normal household stuff straight off the power output of the panels , as it gets later in the day , you 'd start getting your own 'brownouts ' in the house would n't you ?
And since this guys setup never produced more power than he needed it was always below demand .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, he probably won't have any electricity when the grid is out.
We just went to an alternative energy show this weekend and learned the following: 

There are 3 types of systems for connecting to the grid:
 
Off-grid - self explanatory 

Hybrid - can use battery power when the grid is out 

Sync'd - they must be sync'd so that when the grid is out, the power from the panels is not used..otherwise you'd be trying to feed the grid yourself.
The last is the most common setup since the idea is to conserve electricity usage, not replace the need for the grid.
If all the panels in a neighborhood were feeding energy into the, now dark, grid imagine the power company technician trying to work with the wires that are 'live' from the client side.
They could shut off power from the distribution source, but it would still live from the residences preventing it from being safe.
I imagine it would be bad to run A/C stuff inverted from a variable DC line as well.
If you are trying to run normal household stuff straight off the power output of the panels, as it gets later in the day, you'd start getting your own 'brownouts' in the house wouldn't you?
And since this guys setup never produced more power than he needed it was always below demand.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446473</id>
	<title>Re:Return on investment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245756480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Other posts say the loss is arithmetic.</p><p>Also you're forgetting that since energy costs can be expected to follow inflation. 5.9\% is better than you'll get from an inflation adjusted bond.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Other posts say the loss is arithmetic.Also you 're forgetting that since energy costs can be expected to follow inflation .
5.9 \ % is better than you 'll get from an inflation adjusted bond .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Other posts say the loss is arithmetic.Also you're forgetting that since energy costs can be expected to follow inflation.
5.9\% is better than you'll get from an inflation adjusted bond.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457</id>
	<title>Industy Standard Warranties</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245748620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most manufacturers guarantee that their panels will give at least 90\% of peak power at ten years, and 80\% of power at 25 years. Yes, he's saving money.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most manufacturers guarantee that their panels will give at least 90 \ % of peak power at ten years , and 80 \ % of power at 25 years .
Yes , he 's saving money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most manufacturers guarantee that their panels will give at least 90\% of peak power at ten years, and 80\% of power at 25 years.
Yes, he's saving money.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445125</id>
	<title>Re:12 year payback?</title>
	<author>Eponymous Coward</author>
	<datestamp>1245750960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't know if it is unique to Texas, but our realtor told us about a program where the state will finance a solar panel installation. Apart from the hefty incentives, it's a great program because it basically rolls the cost of the panels into your property taxes. It isn't exactly property taxes, but it is a fee that stays with the house. So, if you sell the house, the new owner takes over the payments. True, there are going to be people who aren't interested in solar panels, but there are plenty of people who are and it definitely eases the concern of taking on a big investment when statistically you are likely to move before you reach the point of a positive return.</p><p>As soon as my house finishes construction, I'm looking into it. There's way too much sunshine here for me to not consider it.</p><p>ac</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know if it is unique to Texas , but our realtor told us about a program where the state will finance a solar panel installation .
Apart from the hefty incentives , it 's a great program because it basically rolls the cost of the panels into your property taxes .
It is n't exactly property taxes , but it is a fee that stays with the house .
So , if you sell the house , the new owner takes over the payments .
True , there are going to be people who are n't interested in solar panels , but there are plenty of people who are and it definitely eases the concern of taking on a big investment when statistically you are likely to move before you reach the point of a positive return.As soon as my house finishes construction , I 'm looking into it .
There 's way too much sunshine here for me to not consider it.ac</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know if it is unique to Texas, but our realtor told us about a program where the state will finance a solar panel installation.
Apart from the hefty incentives, it's a great program because it basically rolls the cost of the panels into your property taxes.
It isn't exactly property taxes, but it is a fee that stays with the house.
So, if you sell the house, the new owner takes over the payments.
True, there are going to be people who aren't interested in solar panels, but there are plenty of people who are and it definitely eases the concern of taking on a big investment when statistically you are likely to move before you reach the point of a positive return.As soon as my house finishes construction, I'm looking into it.
There's way too much sunshine here for me to not consider it.ac</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444573</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28450859</id>
	<title>Re:No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>Kijori</author>
	<datestamp>1245846420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not quite - you're subtracting the money he spends on electricity in the "no solar panels" case, but not the money he spends on solar panels in the "solar-panels" case. More accurate is to say:</p><p>If he buys the solar panels<br>- $38,000 for the panels<br>+ $3,000 per year for the electricity saved, reinvested at 5\% giving $47,751.38<br>total: $9,751.38</p><p>If he doesn't buy them:<br>+ $38,000 invested at 5\% gives $68,242<br>- $3,000 per year in electricity giving - $36,000<br>total: $32,242</p><p>You can't count the 36k for the electricity but not the 38k for the panels.</p><p>Of course, there are plenty of other factors that could make this a good investment; changes to the resale value of the house, inflation or increases in electricity price for example, although it's worth remembering that things could potentially swing against him as well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not quite - you 're subtracting the money he spends on electricity in the " no solar panels " case , but not the money he spends on solar panels in the " solar-panels " case .
More accurate is to say : If he buys the solar panels- $ 38,000 for the panels + $ 3,000 per year for the electricity saved , reinvested at 5 \ % giving $ 47,751.38total : $ 9,751.38If he does n't buy them : + $ 38,000 invested at 5 \ % gives $ 68,242- $ 3,000 per year in electricity giving - $ 36,000total : $ 32,242You ca n't count the 36k for the electricity but not the 38k for the panels.Of course , there are plenty of other factors that could make this a good investment ; changes to the resale value of the house , inflation or increases in electricity price for example , although it 's worth remembering that things could potentially swing against him as well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not quite - you're subtracting the money he spends on electricity in the "no solar panels" case, but not the money he spends on solar panels in the "solar-panels" case.
More accurate is to say:If he buys the solar panels- $38,000 for the panels+ $3,000 per year for the electricity saved, reinvested at 5\% giving $47,751.38total: $9,751.38If he doesn't buy them:+ $38,000 invested at 5\% gives $68,242- $3,000 per year in electricity giving - $36,000total: $32,242You can't count the 36k for the electricity but not the 38k for the panels.Of course, there are plenty of other factors that could make this a good investment; changes to the resale value of the house, inflation or increases in electricity price for example, although it's worth remembering that things could potentially swing against him as well.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444373</id>
	<title>Panel Degradation</title>
	<author>Lead Butthead</author>
	<datestamp>1245748260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Doesn't the panels degrade over time, and produces less electricity as they age?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Does n't the panels degrade over time , and produces less electricity as they age ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Doesn't the panels degrade over time, and produces less electricity as they age?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445013</id>
	<title>Re:12 year payback?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245750540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Whew.  Glad my energy company is providing me with clean and efficient nuclear power.</p><p>And unless those taxes actually go directly and accountably TOWARD building those alternatives, count me out.  This country has no proven track record for "sin" type taxes going toward anything solving the "sin" they are supposed to solve in the first place.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Whew .
Glad my energy company is providing me with clean and efficient nuclear power.And unless those taxes actually go directly and accountably TOWARD building those alternatives , count me out .
This country has no proven track record for " sin " type taxes going toward anything solving the " sin " they are supposed to solve in the first place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Whew.
Glad my energy company is providing me with clean and efficient nuclear power.And unless those taxes actually go directly and accountably TOWARD building those alternatives, count me out.
This country has no proven track record for "sin" type taxes going toward anything solving the "sin" they are supposed to solve in the first place.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444573</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009</id>
	<title>Re:No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>Zalbik</author>
	<datestamp>1245754380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Why people still routinely neglect compound interesting I'll never know. If he took that $38,000 and put it in a long term investment at a mere 5\%, he'd had 68242.54 at the end of 12 years. Yes, it's green, yes, it's cool, but no, he's not saving money.</p></div></blockquote><p>Why people still routinely neglect compound interest I'll never know.</p><p>If he takes the $3000 he saves in electricity costs every year and invests that at 5\%, he'll have $47,751.38 at the end of 12 years.</p><p>With your scenario, he has $68,242 but he will have paid $36,000 in electricity, leaving him with $32,242 if he "cashes out".</p><p>Personally, I'd take $47000 over $32000 any day.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why people still routinely neglect compound interesting I 'll never know .
If he took that $ 38,000 and put it in a long term investment at a mere 5 \ % , he 'd had 68242.54 at the end of 12 years .
Yes , it 's green , yes , it 's cool , but no , he 's not saving money.Why people still routinely neglect compound interest I 'll never know.If he takes the $ 3000 he saves in electricity costs every year and invests that at 5 \ % , he 'll have $ 47,751.38 at the end of 12 years.With your scenario , he has $ 68,242 but he will have paid $ 36,000 in electricity , leaving him with $ 32,242 if he " cashes out " .Personally , I 'd take $ 47000 over $ 32000 any day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why people still routinely neglect compound interesting I'll never know.
If he took that $38,000 and put it in a long term investment at a mere 5\%, he'd had 68242.54 at the end of 12 years.
Yes, it's green, yes, it's cool, but no, he's not saving money.Why people still routinely neglect compound interest I'll never know.If he takes the $3000 he saves in electricity costs every year and invests that at 5\%, he'll have $47,751.38 at the end of 12 years.With your scenario, he has $68,242 but he will have paid $36,000 in electricity, leaving him with $32,242 if he "cashes out".Personally, I'd take $47000 over $32000 any day.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445101</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>jimbogun</author>
	<datestamp>1245750900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Electric companies shouldn't be directly linked to Gulf politics. Most of the electricity in the U.S. is produced by coal, natural gas, nuclear, and hydroelectric energy sources according to the Department of Energy. Petroleum makes up only 1.3\% of U.S. electricity production. <a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/epm\_sum.html" title="doe.gov" rel="nofollow">http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/epm\_sum.html</a> [doe.gov]</p><p>Your point is a good one though, that energy prices will most likely go up per kWh.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Electric companies should n't be directly linked to Gulf politics .
Most of the electricity in the U.S. is produced by coal , natural gas , nuclear , and hydroelectric energy sources according to the Department of Energy .
Petroleum makes up only 1.3 \ % of U.S. electricity production .
http : //www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/epm \ _sum.html [ doe.gov ] Your point is a good one though , that energy prices will most likely go up per kWh .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Electric companies shouldn't be directly linked to Gulf politics.
Most of the electricity in the U.S. is produced by coal, natural gas, nuclear, and hydroelectric energy sources according to the Department of Energy.
Petroleum makes up only 1.3\% of U.S. electricity production.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/epm\_sum.html [doe.gov]Your point is a good one though, that energy prices will most likely go up per kWh.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751</id>
	<title>No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>chatgris</author>
	<datestamp>1245749640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why people still routinely neglect compound interesting I'll never know.

If he took that $38,000 and put it in a long term investment at a mere 5\%, he'd had 68242.54 at the end of 12 years.

Yes, it's green, yes, it's cool, but no, he's not saving money.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why people still routinely neglect compound interesting I 'll never know .
If he took that $ 38,000 and put it in a long term investment at a mere 5 \ % , he 'd had 68242.54 at the end of 12 years .
Yes , it 's green , yes , it 's cool , but no , he 's not saving money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why people still routinely neglect compound interesting I'll never know.
If he took that $38,000 and put it in a long term investment at a mere 5\%, he'd had 68242.54 at the end of 12 years.
Yes, it's green, yes, it's cool, but no, he's not saving money.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445835</id>
	<title>Still not practicle</title>
	<author>NIK282000</author>
	<datestamp>1245753600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>The power output on this is still pitiful. His system is supposed to give him 8,721kW hours per year (see his installation article). So that means the numbers work out like this if you wanted to know how much you could power from such a setup.
<br> <br>
(((8721 kW) * 1 hours) / (365 * 24hours)) = 995.547945 watts.<br> <br>

That is less then 1 regular circuit (8.2962 amps on a 120 volt load). That is just about enough to power your fridge given that it cycles on and many times a day. 38,000$ is a lot of money to spend running your fridge. <br> <br>

The real reason this works for him is that he was taking it in the hoop from the power company and he has that "green mentality" where quality of life can be compromised in favor of "being green." He would have probably saved more in the long run if he invested the money (some where that didn't tank in the past year) and just turned off lights and switched to lower power devices. For the average geek power consumption of desktop PCs routers, battery changers and home entertainment equipment exceeds the the total amount of power generated over the year, its just not worth it for the average person.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The power output on this is still pitiful .
His system is supposed to give him 8,721kW hours per year ( see his installation article ) .
So that means the numbers work out like this if you wanted to know how much you could power from such a setup .
( ( ( 8721 kW ) * 1 hours ) / ( 365 * 24hours ) ) = 995.547945 watts .
That is less then 1 regular circuit ( 8.2962 amps on a 120 volt load ) .
That is just about enough to power your fridge given that it cycles on and many times a day .
38,000 $ is a lot of money to spend running your fridge .
The real reason this works for him is that he was taking it in the hoop from the power company and he has that " green mentality " where quality of life can be compromised in favor of " being green .
" He would have probably saved more in the long run if he invested the money ( some where that did n't tank in the past year ) and just turned off lights and switched to lower power devices .
For the average geek power consumption of desktop PCs routers , battery changers and home entertainment equipment exceeds the the total amount of power generated over the year , its just not worth it for the average person .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The power output on this is still pitiful.
His system is supposed to give him 8,721kW hours per year (see his installation article).
So that means the numbers work out like this if you wanted to know how much you could power from such a setup.
(((8721 kW) * 1 hours) / (365 * 24hours)) = 995.547945 watts.
That is less then 1 regular circuit (8.2962 amps on a 120 volt load).
That is just about enough to power your fridge given that it cycles on and many times a day.
38,000$ is a lot of money to spend running your fridge.
The real reason this works for him is that he was taking it in the hoop from the power company and he has that "green mentality" where quality of life can be compromised in favor of "being green.
" He would have probably saved more in the long run if he invested the money (some where that didn't tank in the past year) and just turned off lights and switched to lower power devices.
For the average geek power consumption of desktop PCs routers, battery changers and home entertainment equipment exceeds the the total amount of power generated over the year, its just not worth it for the average person.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445431</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245752040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't forget what the new carbon taxes will do to energy prices, and I might add, the cost of solar panels when everyone else decides to buy them too...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't forget what the new carbon taxes will do to energy prices , and I might add , the cost of solar panels when everyone else decides to buy them too.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't forget what the new carbon taxes will do to energy prices, and I might add, the cost of solar panels when everyone else decides to buy them too...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445525</id>
	<title>Re:Return on investment</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1245752400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Based on the last 20 years of Solar Cell developed, I would disagree.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Based on the last 20 years of Solar Cell developed , I would disagree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Based on the last 20 years of Solar Cell developed, I would disagree.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444427</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445615</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>ID000001</author>
	<datestamp>1245752760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>They have 25 years warranty.</htmltext>
<tokenext>They have 25 years warranty .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They have 25 years warranty.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444977</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445605</id>
	<title>1363kWh in one month?!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245752700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What the hell has he in that house?!!?<br>Last may I consumed 111kWh!! And that man 302kWh only from the grid, not counting the solar panels!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What the hell has he in that house ? ! !
? Last may I consumed 111kWh ! !
And that man 302kWh only from the grid , not counting the solar panels !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What the hell has he in that house?!!
?Last may I consumed 111kWh!!
And that man 302kWh only from the grid, not counting the solar panels!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447259</id>
	<title>Re:Return on investment</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1245760740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Now, plug in the numbers for the warranted 90\% at 12 years and 80\% after 25 years. (that is, loses &lt;1\% not 2\% per year). Then factor in that electricity from the grid is likely to increase in cost (and so the savings becomes greater for a given amount of power produced).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Now , plug in the numbers for the warranted 90 \ % at 12 years and 80 \ % after 25 years .
( that is , loses</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now, plug in the numbers for the warranted 90\% at 12 years and 80\% after 25 years.
(that is, loses </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446959</id>
	<title>Re:Return on investment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245758940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You forgot to take into account increases in the price of electricity</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You forgot to take into account increases in the price of electricity</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You forgot to take into account increases in the price of electricity</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445189</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>Ecuador</author>
	<datestamp>1245751140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, but if Daniel Shipstone solves our energy worries in the near future, the guy will just have a fancy roof.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , but if Daniel Shipstone solves our energy worries in the near future , the guy will just have a fancy roof .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, but if Daniel Shipstone solves our energy worries in the near future, the guy will just have a fancy roof.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449345</id>
	<title>Maths doesn't work out</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245781620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This guy has fiddled with the numbers, and I would go so far as to say he did it deliberatly to make it look good. He makes no attempt at all to acutally work out how much he saved. He just takes last years power bill and this years power bill and says look I saved $3,000, that only true if he used the same amount of power both years. I doupt he did, I bet everyone in the family was conserving power, even subconsciously.</p><p>According to his own graphs he generated 8686 kilowatt hours of power, which he claims saved him $3,000. This comes out to 34.5 cents per kilowatt hour. So we are meant to believe that all his power was at top tier usage? If so he has the most expensive power company in the western world - 35cents US per kilowatt hour! God lord, I thought it was bad when my power went up 16\% this year from 9c to 10.5c per kilowatt hour.</p><p>Sure solar might have saved him $3,000 but he could probably save $2,000 just by changing his power company or tariffs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This guy has fiddled with the numbers , and I would go so far as to say he did it deliberatly to make it look good .
He makes no attempt at all to acutally work out how much he saved .
He just takes last years power bill and this years power bill and says look I saved $ 3,000 , that only true if he used the same amount of power both years .
I doupt he did , I bet everyone in the family was conserving power , even subconsciously.According to his own graphs he generated 8686 kilowatt hours of power , which he claims saved him $ 3,000 .
This comes out to 34.5 cents per kilowatt hour .
So we are meant to believe that all his power was at top tier usage ?
If so he has the most expensive power company in the western world - 35cents US per kilowatt hour !
God lord , I thought it was bad when my power went up 16 \ % this year from 9c to 10.5c per kilowatt hour.Sure solar might have saved him $ 3,000 but he could probably save $ 2,000 just by changing his power company or tariffs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This guy has fiddled with the numbers, and I would go so far as to say he did it deliberatly to make it look good.
He makes no attempt at all to acutally work out how much he saved.
He just takes last years power bill and this years power bill and says look I saved $3,000, that only true if he used the same amount of power both years.
I doupt he did, I bet everyone in the family was conserving power, even subconsciously.According to his own graphs he generated 8686 kilowatt hours of power, which he claims saved him $3,000.
This comes out to 34.5 cents per kilowatt hour.
So we are meant to believe that all his power was at top tier usage?
If so he has the most expensive power company in the western world - 35cents US per kilowatt hour!
God lord, I thought it was bad when my power went up 16\% this year from 9c to 10.5c per kilowatt hour.Sure solar might have saved him $3,000 but he could probably save $2,000 just by changing his power company or tariffs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444957</id>
	<title>Re:Solar panel longevity</title>
	<author>thetoadwarrior</author>
	<datestamp>1245750300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I had neighbour that had solar panels back since at least the late 80's and he had them up until the turn of the century (I moved, he may still have the originals) and aside from washing them, I don't think I've ever seen him do anything to them. I can only imagine the technology has gotten better and no doubt take up much less room than his did.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I had neighbour that had solar panels back since at least the late 80 's and he had them up until the turn of the century ( I moved , he may still have the originals ) and aside from washing them , I do n't think I 've ever seen him do anything to them .
I can only imagine the technology has gotten better and no doubt take up much less room than his did .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had neighbour that had solar panels back since at least the late 80's and he had them up until the turn of the century (I moved, he may still have the originals) and aside from washing them, I don't think I've ever seen him do anything to them.
I can only imagine the technology has gotten better and no doubt take up much less room than his did.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447521</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245762480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm assuming you were at MREA's Energy Fair, since that was the biggest such show (that I'm aware of) on this past weekend.</p><p>I wonder if I saw you there - the company I work for was an exhibitor, and I was there myself Sunday. We had thin-film solar panels on display.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm assuming you were at MREA 's Energy Fair , since that was the biggest such show ( that I 'm aware of ) on this past weekend.I wonder if I saw you there - the company I work for was an exhibitor , and I was there myself Sunday .
We had thin-film solar panels on display .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm assuming you were at MREA's Energy Fair, since that was the biggest such show (that I'm aware of) on this past weekend.I wonder if I saw you there - the company I work for was an exhibitor, and I was there myself Sunday.
We had thin-film solar panels on display.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445157</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>d3l33t</author>
	<datestamp>1245751080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Logic has no place here, this is<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.!!!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Logic has no place here , this is /. ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Logic has no place here, this is /.!!
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447445</id>
	<title>IIR and government rebates</title>
	<author>brindafella</author>
	<datestamp>1245762000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Firstly, like Gospodin (547743), I looked at the headline story and smelled a rat in the methodology. Internal Rate of Return (IIR) (aka "Time Value of Money") works to 'normalise' the figures to "today-dollars". Not only is there an efficiency reduction, the value of $3,000 now is reduced by the rate of inflation over the period, which on face value was not counted by the article's author with the effect that the pay-back period is lengthened. I'll accept the figures by Gospodin (547743).

</p><p>Secondly, I'm in Australia, where the Federal Government has just abruptly <a href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/22/2604850.htm" title="abc.net.au" rel="nofollow">cancelled</a> [abc.net.au] two rebate schemes and thereby markedly increased the cost of solar systems to consumers. There is some politics involved, but the consumer who was having a system installed in the last few weeks suddenly has a very significant real cost increase on the systems, and prospective customers are cancelling in great numbers. Great outcome!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Firstly , like Gospodin ( 547743 ) , I looked at the headline story and smelled a rat in the methodology .
Internal Rate of Return ( IIR ) ( aka " Time Value of Money " ) works to 'normalise ' the figures to " today-dollars " .
Not only is there an efficiency reduction , the value of $ 3,000 now is reduced by the rate of inflation over the period , which on face value was not counted by the article 's author with the effect that the pay-back period is lengthened .
I 'll accept the figures by Gospodin ( 547743 ) .
Secondly , I 'm in Australia , where the Federal Government has just abruptly cancelled [ abc.net.au ] two rebate schemes and thereby markedly increased the cost of solar systems to consumers .
There is some politics involved , but the consumer who was having a system installed in the last few weeks suddenly has a very significant real cost increase on the systems , and prospective customers are cancelling in great numbers .
Great outcome !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Firstly, like Gospodin (547743), I looked at the headline story and smelled a rat in the methodology.
Internal Rate of Return (IIR) (aka "Time Value of Money") works to 'normalise' the figures to "today-dollars".
Not only is there an efficiency reduction, the value of $3,000 now is reduced by the rate of inflation over the period, which on face value was not counted by the article's author with the effect that the pay-back period is lengthened.
I'll accept the figures by Gospodin (547743).
Secondly, I'm in Australia, where the Federal Government has just abruptly cancelled [abc.net.au] two rebate schemes and thereby markedly increased the cost of solar systems to consumers.
There is some politics involved, but the consumer who was having a system installed in the last few weeks suddenly has a very significant real cost increase on the systems, and prospective customers are cancelling in great numbers.
Great outcome!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445479</id>
	<title>Re:Price of certainty.</title>
	<author>jollyreaper</author>
	<datestamp>1245752160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>To all the people mocking his investment, your missing one thing. You do not know what the price of energy is going to do in the next few years. The guy in the article however is guaranteed a minimum amount of power each year from his solar panels at a rate he knows. (His initial investment / Life time of the panels). If the companies decide to hike the prices in two years time due a deterioration in Gulf politics for example, he is sheltered from its effects and lets be honest it's very unlikely the price is going to go down per kwh. He is also sheltered to a certain extent from the failure of the power network so if a situation does arise where there are rolling blackouts again, he knows he will a least have some electricity each day. One of the things that people constantly underestimate the price of is certainty.</p></div><p>And the price of energy is artificially low since we don't really factor the environmental cost into things. If you factor in environmental remediation, health care for people poisoned by the power plant pollution, etc, etc, fossil fuels would be very expensive. Just imagine how much gas would cost if we didn't pay for the military with payroll taxes but with a gas tax -- total out of pocket for the tax payer being the same, just let them see what they're really paying to make sure they have gas at the pump. Because the main reason we have a military is to protect our access to foreign oil. Don't tell me we need a military bigger than the rest of the world combined to protect us from Mexico and Canada.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>To all the people mocking his investment , your missing one thing .
You do not know what the price of energy is going to do in the next few years .
The guy in the article however is guaranteed a minimum amount of power each year from his solar panels at a rate he knows .
( His initial investment / Life time of the panels ) .
If the companies decide to hike the prices in two years time due a deterioration in Gulf politics for example , he is sheltered from its effects and lets be honest it 's very unlikely the price is going to go down per kwh .
He is also sheltered to a certain extent from the failure of the power network so if a situation does arise where there are rolling blackouts again , he knows he will a least have some electricity each day .
One of the things that people constantly underestimate the price of is certainty.And the price of energy is artificially low since we do n't really factor the environmental cost into things .
If you factor in environmental remediation , health care for people poisoned by the power plant pollution , etc , etc , fossil fuels would be very expensive .
Just imagine how much gas would cost if we did n't pay for the military with payroll taxes but with a gas tax -- total out of pocket for the tax payer being the same , just let them see what they 're really paying to make sure they have gas at the pump .
Because the main reason we have a military is to protect our access to foreign oil .
Do n't tell me we need a military bigger than the rest of the world combined to protect us from Mexico and Canada .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To all the people mocking his investment, your missing one thing.
You do not know what the price of energy is going to do in the next few years.
The guy in the article however is guaranteed a minimum amount of power each year from his solar panels at a rate he knows.
(His initial investment / Life time of the panels).
If the companies decide to hike the prices in two years time due a deterioration in Gulf politics for example, he is sheltered from its effects and lets be honest it's very unlikely the price is going to go down per kwh.
He is also sheltered to a certain extent from the failure of the power network so if a situation does arise where there are rolling blackouts again, he knows he will a least have some electricity each day.
One of the things that people constantly underestimate the price of is certainty.And the price of energy is artificially low since we don't really factor the environmental cost into things.
If you factor in environmental remediation, health care for people poisoned by the power plant pollution, etc, etc, fossil fuels would be very expensive.
Just imagine how much gas would cost if we didn't pay for the military with payroll taxes but with a gas tax -- total out of pocket for the tax payer being the same, just let them see what they're really paying to make sure they have gas at the pump.
Because the main reason we have a military is to protect our access to foreign oil.
Don't tell me we need a military bigger than the rest of the world combined to protect us from Mexico and Canada.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445709</id>
	<title>Wow California energy is expensive</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245753120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>During his peak month (Dec) he used 1369 kw/hr, costing $333.96.</p><p>My peak month was July 08, using 3586 kw/hr, costing $368.53.  (Pool and A/C in Oklahoma)</p><p>My total cost for the last 12 months was: $2393, his was $1460.  And he has solar panels, and I've got a 28 yr old house...</p><p>Sadly this indicates how incredibly cheap energy is in some parts of the country.  However much I'd love to have Wind power or Solar power (I've looked into it more than a few times), it makes no economic sense until the cost of energy goes way up, and the cost of the technology goes down...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>During his peak month ( Dec ) he used 1369 kw/hr , costing $ 333.96.My peak month was July 08 , using 3586 kw/hr , costing $ 368.53 .
( Pool and A/C in Oklahoma ) My total cost for the last 12 months was : $ 2393 , his was $ 1460 .
And he has solar panels , and I 've got a 28 yr old house...Sadly this indicates how incredibly cheap energy is in some parts of the country .
However much I 'd love to have Wind power or Solar power ( I 've looked into it more than a few times ) , it makes no economic sense until the cost of energy goes way up , and the cost of the technology goes down.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>During his peak month (Dec) he used 1369 kw/hr, costing $333.96.My peak month was July 08, using 3586 kw/hr, costing $368.53.
(Pool and A/C in Oklahoma)My total cost for the last 12 months was: $2393, his was $1460.
And he has solar panels, and I've got a 28 yr old house...Sadly this indicates how incredibly cheap energy is in some parts of the country.
However much I'd love to have Wind power or Solar power (I've looked into it more than a few times), it makes no economic sense until the cost of energy goes way up, and the cost of the technology goes down...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445291</id>
	<title>Life expectancy?</title>
	<author>DaveV1.0</author>
	<datestamp>1245751500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Despite the $38,000 initial cost for the setup, Loyd is very optimistic after a $3,000 savings in one year, meaning that in about 12 years he will break even -- though he suspects ten years is a better estimate considering other factors.</p></div> </blockquote><p>How long are these solar panels supposed to last? Does their efficiency fall off with age?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Despite the $ 38,000 initial cost for the setup , Loyd is very optimistic after a $ 3,000 savings in one year , meaning that in about 12 years he will break even -- though he suspects ten years is a better estimate considering other factors .
How long are these solar panels supposed to last ?
Does their efficiency fall off with age ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Despite the $38,000 initial cost for the setup, Loyd is very optimistic after a $3,000 savings in one year, meaning that in about 12 years he will break even -- though he suspects ten years is a better estimate considering other factors.
How long are these solar panels supposed to last?
Does their efficiency fall off with age?
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445305</id>
	<title>Re:12 year payback?</title>
	<author>SquirrelsUnite</author>
	<datestamp>1245751560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Sorry, the payback needs to be under 3 years to have any chance at wide spread acceptance.  Here's the cold hard reality: until we tax the living shit out of fossil fuel consumption, alternative energy sources will never gain traction.</p></div><p>Are you serious? 3 year payback time would be like printing money.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry , the payback needs to be under 3 years to have any chance at wide spread acceptance .
Here 's the cold hard reality : until we tax the living shit out of fossil fuel consumption , alternative energy sources will never gain traction.Are you serious ?
3 year payback time would be like printing money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry, the payback needs to be under 3 years to have any chance at wide spread acceptance.
Here's the cold hard reality: until we tax the living shit out of fossil fuel consumption, alternative energy sources will never gain traction.Are you serious?
3 year payback time would be like printing money.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444573</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445035</id>
	<title>Re:No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>CubeRootOf</author>
	<datestamp>1245750600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I invested $22,000 two years ago, and know I have $19,000, and I think I'm doing pretty damn good. Compound interest? Doesn't interest me. I should have paid off my car and student loans.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I invested $ 22,000 two years ago , and know I have $ 19,000 , and I think I 'm doing pretty damn good .
Compound interest ?
Does n't interest me .
I should have paid off my car and student loans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I invested $22,000 two years ago, and know I have $19,000, and I think I'm doing pretty damn good.
Compound interest?
Doesn't interest me.
I should have paid off my car and student loans.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444783</id>
	<title>Yes, But Not Necessarily By A Lot</title>
	<author>Kneo24</author>
	<datestamp>1245749700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Many Crystalline silicon module manufacturers offer warranties that guarantee electrical production for 10 years at 90\% of rated power output and 25 years at 80\%.</p></div><p>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic\_module" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic\_module</a> [wikipedia.org] <br> <br>

Now I read his initial article close to a year ago, so I don't remember what type he got, or if it even specifically mentions it. However his panels are rated to last 30 years. I imagine the warranty specifically mentions how much they will output as their life increases. It should be fairly obvious to see if it's putting out what it should be in those 30 years. If they don't, well, his warranty will cover that.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Many Crystalline silicon module manufacturers offer warranties that guarantee electrical production for 10 years at 90 \ % of rated power output and 25 years at 80 \ % .
http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic \ _module [ wikipedia.org ] Now I read his initial article close to a year ago , so I do n't remember what type he got , or if it even specifically mentions it .
However his panels are rated to last 30 years .
I imagine the warranty specifically mentions how much they will output as their life increases .
It should be fairly obvious to see if it 's putting out what it should be in those 30 years .
If they do n't , well , his warranty will cover that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many Crystalline silicon module manufacturers offer warranties that guarantee electrical production for 10 years at 90\% of rated power output and 25 years at 80\%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic\_module [wikipedia.org]  

Now I read his initial article close to a year ago, so I don't remember what type he got, or if it even specifically mentions it.
However his panels are rated to last 30 years.
I imagine the warranty specifically mentions how much they will output as their life increases.
It should be fairly obvious to see if it's putting out what it should be in those 30 years.
If they don't, well, his warranty will cover that.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444373</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444737</id>
	<title>Re:Return on investment</title>
	<author>TooMuchToDo</author>
	<datestamp>1245749580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>But by how much will it depreciate? According to it's decreased output overtime? What's the warranty on the system? Most new solar panel/film systems provide at least a 50 year warranty, so if his system cost him $38K and you expect zero output after 50 years, the system loses $760 of value each year. Still not a bad deal.</htmltext>
<tokenext>But by how much will it depreciate ?
According to it 's decreased output overtime ?
What 's the warranty on the system ?
Most new solar panel/film systems provide at least a 50 year warranty , so if his system cost him $ 38K and you expect zero output after 50 years , the system loses $ 760 of value each year .
Still not a bad deal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But by how much will it depreciate?
According to it's decreased output overtime?
What's the warranty on the system?
Most new solar panel/film systems provide at least a 50 year warranty, so if his system cost him $38K and you expect zero output after 50 years, the system loses $760 of value each year.
Still not a bad deal.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444427</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444573</id>
	<title>12 year payback?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245749040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Sorry, the payback needs to be under 3 years to have any chance at wide spread acceptance.  Here's the cold hard reality: until we tax the living shit out of fossil fuel consumption, alternative energy sources will never gain traction.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry , the payback needs to be under 3 years to have any chance at wide spread acceptance .
Here 's the cold hard reality : until we tax the living shit out of fossil fuel consumption , alternative energy sources will never gain traction .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry, the payback needs to be under 3 years to have any chance at wide spread acceptance.
Here's the cold hard reality: until we tax the living shit out of fossil fuel consumption, alternative energy sources will never gain traction.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444317</id>
	<title>Return on investment</title>
	<author>Geoffrey.landis</author>
	<datestamp>1245748080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Three thousand dollar savings per year on a 38000 investment is a 7.8 percent rate of return on investment-- not bad, as long as the investment itself dosn't depreciate in value.
<p>ROE is a much better way of calculating economics than "payback time," by the way</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Three thousand dollar savings per year on a 38000 investment is a 7.8 percent rate of return on investment-- not bad , as long as the investment itself dos n't depreciate in value .
ROE is a much better way of calculating economics than " payback time , " by the way</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Three thousand dollar savings per year on a 38000 investment is a 7.8 percent rate of return on investment-- not bad, as long as the investment itself dosn't depreciate in value.
ROE is a much better way of calculating economics than "payback time," by the way</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446901</id>
	<title>Re:Solar panel longevity</title>
	<author>retiredtwice</author>
	<datestamp>1245758640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hi</p><p>Panels in general have a 20 year guarantee for something like 85\% retained efficiency and seem to be lasting 30 years or so.</p><p>I put a 3.3KW system (a little over half of his) in about 14 months ago.    Cost about 20K after rebates.</p><p>But I am on the "time of day" metering even though we are home.     What that does is sell the KW back to PG&amp;E at the higher afternoon rate when the sun is at its best and we don't use the oven or energy intense appliances during the afternoon.</p><p>My house is in Los Altos which is about 5 miles from Sunnyvale.   It is about 3700 sq ft (including detached workshop) and my "true up" bill from PG&amp;E was 157$ for the entire year.    I seem to use much less electricity than he does for some reason.   I sized it to cover about 1/2 of my usage but about 2/3 of the cost (results from the time of day metering).    Seemed to work out quite well.    My calculated payback was about 12 years and I included some inflation in that as well as interest on the money had I put it in savings instead of spending it.    It would appear that the 12 years or so is going to be pretty accurate (I did not predict a rise in electric rates which allows the calculation to be conservative).</p><p>One benefit of the solar is that the panels cover the south facing roof with an airspace underneath so the shading effect of the panels keeps the house noticeably cooler.   I was planning on putting in central air but am foregoing those plans as the house stays cool enough now.   (small air conditioner in one room).</p><p>I would also do it again but would put in a larger system just so I could say I generate more than I use.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>HiPanels in general have a 20 year guarantee for something like 85 \ % retained efficiency and seem to be lasting 30 years or so.I put a 3.3KW system ( a little over half of his ) in about 14 months ago .
Cost about 20K after rebates.But I am on the " time of day " metering even though we are home .
What that does is sell the KW back to PG&amp;E at the higher afternoon rate when the sun is at its best and we do n't use the oven or energy intense appliances during the afternoon.My house is in Los Altos which is about 5 miles from Sunnyvale .
It is about 3700 sq ft ( including detached workshop ) and my " true up " bill from PG&amp;E was 157 $ for the entire year .
I seem to use much less electricity than he does for some reason .
I sized it to cover about 1/2 of my usage but about 2/3 of the cost ( results from the time of day metering ) .
Seemed to work out quite well .
My calculated payback was about 12 years and I included some inflation in that as well as interest on the money had I put it in savings instead of spending it .
It would appear that the 12 years or so is going to be pretty accurate ( I did not predict a rise in electric rates which allows the calculation to be conservative ) .One benefit of the solar is that the panels cover the south facing roof with an airspace underneath so the shading effect of the panels keeps the house noticeably cooler .
I was planning on putting in central air but am foregoing those plans as the house stays cool enough now .
( small air conditioner in one room ) .I would also do it again but would put in a larger system just so I could say I generate more than I use .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>HiPanels in general have a 20 year guarantee for something like 85\% retained efficiency and seem to be lasting 30 years or so.I put a 3.3KW system (a little over half of his) in about 14 months ago.
Cost about 20K after rebates.But I am on the "time of day" metering even though we are home.
What that does is sell the KW back to PG&amp;E at the higher afternoon rate when the sun is at its best and we don't use the oven or energy intense appliances during the afternoon.My house is in Los Altos which is about 5 miles from Sunnyvale.
It is about 3700 sq ft (including detached workshop) and my "true up" bill from PG&amp;E was 157$ for the entire year.
I seem to use much less electricity than he does for some reason.
I sized it to cover about 1/2 of my usage but about 2/3 of the cost (results from the time of day metering).
Seemed to work out quite well.
My calculated payback was about 12 years and I included some inflation in that as well as interest on the money had I put it in savings instead of spending it.
It would appear that the 12 years or so is going to be pretty accurate (I did not predict a rise in electric rates which allows the calculation to be conservative).One benefit of the solar is that the panels cover the south facing roof with an airspace underneath so the shading effect of the panels keeps the house noticeably cooler.
I was planning on putting in central air but am foregoing those plans as the house stays cool enough now.
(small air conditioner in one room).I would also do it again but would put in a larger system just so I could say I generate more than I use.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447201</id>
	<title>Re:This is not a lot of power....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245760260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Wow! Their solution to a problem isn't your solution to a problem. How the fuck does that work?<br> <br>Are you dense or are you just purposely trying to be a jerk off?<br> <br>No solution is a catch all. Get over it. And you're wasting energy somewhere without good cause. I'm sure of it from your numbers. Getting your head out of your ass might help your cause.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow !
Their solution to a problem is n't your solution to a problem .
How the fuck does that work ?
Are you dense or are you just purposely trying to be a jerk off ?
No solution is a catch all .
Get over it .
And you 're wasting energy somewhere without good cause .
I 'm sure of it from your numbers .
Getting your head out of your ass might help your cause .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow!
Their solution to a problem isn't your solution to a problem.
How the fuck does that work?
Are you dense or are you just purposely trying to be a jerk off?
No solution is a catch all.
Get over it.
And you're wasting energy somewhere without good cause.
I'm sure of it from your numbers.
Getting your head out of your ass might help your cause.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445389</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445385</id>
	<title>Re:No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>tricorn</author>
	<datestamp>1245751800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It makes more sense to do it as a loan calculation at a fixed interest rate; at a 5\% interest rate and $250/month savings (that's used to pay off the loan), a $38,000 loan is paid off in 20 years.  That's not taking into account the deterioration of the cells, nor any maintenance to batteries, but also assumes the cost of electricity is going to remain constant.  If electricity rates increase and more than offset any decrease in the amount of power generated, the payoff time is less.</p><p>At 7\%, it's about 30 years to pay off.  At 4\% it's a bit under 18 years.</p><p>At the end of the payoff period, it doesn't matter if the worth of the system has depreciated to zero.  At worst you broke even; most likely some parts of the system are still useable, and the price of replacement panels will be very low, and efficiency much higher than it is now.  It may even make economic sense to replace the panels sooner if you're still using any electricity off the grid.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It makes more sense to do it as a loan calculation at a fixed interest rate ; at a 5 \ % interest rate and $ 250/month savings ( that 's used to pay off the loan ) , a $ 38,000 loan is paid off in 20 years .
That 's not taking into account the deterioration of the cells , nor any maintenance to batteries , but also assumes the cost of electricity is going to remain constant .
If electricity rates increase and more than offset any decrease in the amount of power generated , the payoff time is less.At 7 \ % , it 's about 30 years to pay off .
At 4 \ % it 's a bit under 18 years.At the end of the payoff period , it does n't matter if the worth of the system has depreciated to zero .
At worst you broke even ; most likely some parts of the system are still useable , and the price of replacement panels will be very low , and efficiency much higher than it is now .
It may even make economic sense to replace the panels sooner if you 're still using any electricity off the grid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It makes more sense to do it as a loan calculation at a fixed interest rate; at a 5\% interest rate and $250/month savings (that's used to pay off the loan), a $38,000 loan is paid off in 20 years.
That's not taking into account the deterioration of the cells, nor any maintenance to batteries, but also assumes the cost of electricity is going to remain constant.
If electricity rates increase and more than offset any decrease in the amount of power generated, the payoff time is less.At 7\%, it's about 30 years to pay off.
At 4\% it's a bit under 18 years.At the end of the payoff period, it doesn't matter if the worth of the system has depreciated to zero.
At worst you broke even; most likely some parts of the system are still useable, and the price of replacement panels will be very low, and efficiency much higher than it is now.
It may even make economic sense to replace the panels sooner if you're still using any electricity off the grid.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449905</id>
	<title>Re:No, he's NOT saving money</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245874440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>wow you are double counting the 3000 he saves in electricity cost</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>wow you are double counting the 3000 he saves in electricity cost</tokentext>
<sentencetext>wow you are double counting the 3000 he saves in electricity cost</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445249</id>
	<title>Hailstorm</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245751320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I live in the US and just experienced my 3rd major hailstorm in 5 years (I consider golf-ball size and larger as major). My guess is that any of the 3 would have significantly reduced the 'return on investment'. It's kind of hilarious, because after the last hailstorm, SEVERAL HUNDRED new roofs are being installed along a 3 mile stretch. If all of those were solar, that would be SEVERAL HUNDRED x ~$30,000 instead of SEVERAL HUNDRED x ~$5000.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I live in the US and just experienced my 3rd major hailstorm in 5 years ( I consider golf-ball size and larger as major ) .
My guess is that any of the 3 would have significantly reduced the 'return on investment' .
It 's kind of hilarious , because after the last hailstorm , SEVERAL HUNDRED new roofs are being installed along a 3 mile stretch .
If all of those were solar , that would be SEVERAL HUNDRED x ~ $ 30,000 instead of SEVERAL HUNDRED x ~ $ 5000 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live in the US and just experienced my 3rd major hailstorm in 5 years (I consider golf-ball size and larger as major).
My guess is that any of the 3 would have significantly reduced the 'return on investment'.
It's kind of hilarious, because after the last hailstorm, SEVERAL HUNDRED new roofs are being installed along a 3 mile stretch.
If all of those were solar, that would be SEVERAL HUNDRED x ~$30,000 instead of SEVERAL HUNDRED x ~$5000.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449137</id>
	<title>Re:This is not a lot of power....</title>
	<author>benjamindees</author>
	<datestamp>1245779160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He doesn't consume a low amount of energy.  He's actually pretty close to average for a household that isn't 100\% electric appliances.  You, on the other hand, consume an ungodly amount of energy.</p><p>Since I'm guessing you don't live in a desert, 2500 kWh in a 2000 sq ft home during a rainy month is ridiculously high.  What do you do for a living that allows you to be able to afford such lunacy and still not recognize that your AC isn't working properly or you have something wired wrong?  Do you grow pot in your house or something?  Are you a stripper?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He does n't consume a low amount of energy .
He 's actually pretty close to average for a household that is n't 100 \ % electric appliances .
You , on the other hand , consume an ungodly amount of energy.Since I 'm guessing you do n't live in a desert , 2500 kWh in a 2000 sq ft home during a rainy month is ridiculously high .
What do you do for a living that allows you to be able to afford such lunacy and still not recognize that your AC is n't working properly or you have something wired wrong ?
Do you grow pot in your house or something ?
Are you a stripper ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He doesn't consume a low amount of energy.
He's actually pretty close to average for a household that isn't 100\% electric appliances.
You, on the other hand, consume an ungodly amount of energy.Since I'm guessing you don't live in a desert, 2500 kWh in a 2000 sq ft home during a rainy month is ridiculously high.
What do you do for a living that allows you to be able to afford such lunacy and still not recognize that your AC isn't working properly or you have something wired wrong?
Do you grow pot in your house or something?
Are you a stripper?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445389</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449603</id>
	<title>Solar water heating...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245784440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My stepdad set up Solar to heat the water in our house many years ago, and he's since recently improved it with newer and more panels and I still take cold showers every day.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My stepdad set up Solar to heat the water in our house many years ago , and he 's since recently improved it with newer and more panels and I still take cold showers every day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My stepdad set up Solar to heat the water in our house many years ago, and he's since recently improved it with newer and more panels and I still take cold showers every day.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_73</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445239
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28457405
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_59</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444957
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_3</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444317
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444427
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444737
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447259
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_35</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445183
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28477109
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_63</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444437
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_37</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444573
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445013
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_42</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446179
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_70</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448877
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_13</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446917
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28452721
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_56</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445385
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_27</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444317
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444427
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444737
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447445
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_32</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445975
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_71</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448947
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_62</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444719
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447287
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_57</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447489
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_48</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444719
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28454839
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_1</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446445
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_19</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445101
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_61</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446681
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_24</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28450859
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_47</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445131
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445997
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_26</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444317
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444427
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444737
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449221
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_49</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445035
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_54</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445131
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445851
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_25</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446199
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_16</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445389
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445903
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_77</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445389
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449137
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_7</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444317
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444427
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444737
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448399
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_67</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445005
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445791
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_12</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444977
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445615
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_60</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445003
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_46</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444573
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445339
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_74</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444573
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445125
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_17</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445749
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_51</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28454387
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_36</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445239
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448685
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_38</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444317
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444427
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444737
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447325
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_41</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444959
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_14</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444573
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445305
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_6</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444317
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444427
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444737
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446959
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_75</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449421
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_66</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28450059
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_5</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448413
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_65</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444317
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444427
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444737
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446499
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_10</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444317
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444427
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445525
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_39</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445389
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446109
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_33</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445431
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_72</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447521
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_58</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445189
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_29</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445005
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445607
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_40</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445535
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_23</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449773
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_30</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445389
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447201
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_2</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445415
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449387
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_4</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445161
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_64</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445351
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_55</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449719
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_28</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446761
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_31</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444373
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444783
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_22</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445291
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446051
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_45</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445157
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_18</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28452303
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_21</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449905
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_52</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444719
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28450327
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_9</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444719
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28457599
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_0</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444317
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444427
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444737
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446473
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_69</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446901
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_76</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445457
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_53</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445671
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_44</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444637
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_15</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447019
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_20</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445479
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28457439
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_43</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444373
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444401
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_34</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445389
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447023
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_8</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444317
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444427
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444737
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447811
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_50</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445891
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_11</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444573
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444889
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_23_191230_68</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444681
</commentlist>
</thread>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.7</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444731
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.0</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445249
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.10</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444373
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444783
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444401
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.1</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444933
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.19</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445291
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446051
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.17</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445835
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.15</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445183
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28477109
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.13</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446429
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.24</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444867
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.6</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444683
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.18</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445169
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.4</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444567
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28452303
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445157
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445431
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446681
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445351
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445161
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448877
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445479
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28457439
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445189
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445891
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445101
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445135
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446445
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445239
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448685
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28457405
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445975
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446761
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446199
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447521
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446917
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28452721
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445003
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445457
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444977
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445615
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.16</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448787
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.14</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444317
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444427
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445525
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444737
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445443
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447259
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447325
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446499
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447811
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446959
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446473
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448399
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447445
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449221
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.8</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444719
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28457599
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28454839
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28450327
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447287
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.11</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445717
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.12</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445605
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.22</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444811
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.20</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444355
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445535
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446901
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444637
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444681
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444437
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447489
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445671
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444457
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445131
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445851
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445997
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444751
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445749
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446009
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449773
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28450059
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449719
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447019
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449421
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28450859
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448947
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449905
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28454387
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28448413
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444959
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445385
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446179
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445035
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444957
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.5</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445415
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449387
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.2</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444573
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445339
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445013
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28444889
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445125
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445305
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.3</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449345
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.23</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445389
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447201
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445903
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28447023
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446109
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28449137
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.9</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445005
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445607
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28445791
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation09_06_23_191230.21</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_23_191230.28446535
</commentlist>
</conversation>
