<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_06_22_0019233</id>
	<title>Indian CEO Says Most US Tech Grads "Unemployable"</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1245693660000</datestamp>
	<htmltext><a href="mailto:theodp@aol.com" rel="nofollow">theodp</a> writes <i>"When questioned about his firm's US hiring, Information Week reports that Vineet Nayar, the CEO of the Indian outsourcing giant HCL Technologies, showed he can <a href="http://www.informationweek.com/news/global-cio/trends/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218100222">stereotype with the best of them</a>, telling an audience in NYC that <a href="http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2009/06/top\_indian\_ceo.html">most American tech grads are 'unemployable.'</a> Explaining that Americans are far less willing than students from developing economies like India, China, and Brazil to master the 'boring' details of tech process and methodology, the HCL chief added that most Americans are just too expensive to train. HCL, which was reportedly <a href="http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Report\_Microsoft\_inks\_deal\_with\_Indian\_outsourcing\_firm\_up\_to\_600\_workers\_42692492.html">awarded a secretive $170 million outsourcing contract by Microsoft</a> last April, gets a <a href="http://www.hcltech.com/microsoft/executive-speak/">personal thumbs-up from Steve Ballmer</a> for 'walking the extra mile.' Ballmer was busy last week <a href="http://www.freep.com/article/20090618/COL06/906180601/Microsoft+CEO+explains+locating+site+in+Canada">pitching more H-1B visas as the cure for America's job ills</a> at The National Summit."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>theodp writes " When questioned about his firm 's US hiring , Information Week reports that Vineet Nayar , the CEO of the Indian outsourcing giant HCL Technologies , showed he can stereotype with the best of them , telling an audience in NYC that most American tech grads are 'unemployable .
' Explaining that Americans are far less willing than students from developing economies like India , China , and Brazil to master the 'boring ' details of tech process and methodology , the HCL chief added that most Americans are just too expensive to train .
HCL , which was reportedly awarded a secretive $ 170 million outsourcing contract by Microsoft last April , gets a personal thumbs-up from Steve Ballmer for 'walking the extra mile .
' Ballmer was busy last week pitching more H-1B visas as the cure for America 's job ills at The National Summit .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>theodp writes "When questioned about his firm's US hiring, Information Week reports that Vineet Nayar, the CEO of the Indian outsourcing giant HCL Technologies, showed he can stereotype with the best of them, telling an audience in NYC that most American tech grads are 'unemployable.
' Explaining that Americans are far less willing than students from developing economies like India, China, and Brazil to master the 'boring' details of tech process and methodology, the HCL chief added that most Americans are just too expensive to train.
HCL, which was reportedly awarded a secretive $170 million outsourcing contract by Microsoft last April, gets a personal thumbs-up from Steve Ballmer for 'walking the extra mile.
' Ballmer was busy last week pitching more H-1B visas as the cure for America's job ills at The National Summit.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419859</id>
	<title>Re:#1:</title>
	<author>Aceticon</author>
	<datestamp>1245675660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A highly motivated worker who will go on and on for 14 hours a day breaking stone with a hammer will still under-produce the not so motivated one which uses a jackhammer for 2h and lazies about for the rest of the day.</p><p>In Software Engineering, skill and experience are the jackhammer while the hammer stands for little skill and experience.</p><p>The truth is that motivation and hard-work alone do not make up for lack of skill and/or experience in intellectual pursuits.</p><p>The problem with the IT work outsourced to India is that nowadays:<br>- The increase in numbers of IT "professionals" has been achieved by bringing into IT people which are not at all gifted for it.<br>- The really good IT techies have been promoted to management because they are so much above the average and demand higher salaries.</p><p>I look at the highly-motivate and little experienced me of 12 years ago and I see how much work I did for how little results (even though I was one of the gifted types, so I produced 4x - 10x more results than the average). I can only begin to imagine how exceptionally unproductive somebody which is neither gifted (came into IT 'cause of the big salaries) nor experienced (doesn't stay in the technical side for long if any good) can be.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A highly motivated worker who will go on and on for 14 hours a day breaking stone with a hammer will still under-produce the not so motivated one which uses a jackhammer for 2h and lazies about for the rest of the day.In Software Engineering , skill and experience are the jackhammer while the hammer stands for little skill and experience.The truth is that motivation and hard-work alone do not make up for lack of skill and/or experience in intellectual pursuits.The problem with the IT work outsourced to India is that nowadays : - The increase in numbers of IT " professionals " has been achieved by bringing into IT people which are not at all gifted for it.- The really good IT techies have been promoted to management because they are so much above the average and demand higher salaries.I look at the highly-motivate and little experienced me of 12 years ago and I see how much work I did for how little results ( even though I was one of the gifted types , so I produced 4x - 10x more results than the average ) .
I can only begin to imagine how exceptionally unproductive somebody which is neither gifted ( came into IT 'cause of the big salaries ) nor experienced ( does n't stay in the technical side for long if any good ) can be .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A highly motivated worker who will go on and on for 14 hours a day breaking stone with a hammer will still under-produce the not so motivated one which uses a jackhammer for 2h and lazies about for the rest of the day.In Software Engineering, skill and experience are the jackhammer while the hammer stands for little skill and experience.The truth is that motivation and hard-work alone do not make up for lack of skill and/or experience in intellectual pursuits.The problem with the IT work outsourced to India is that nowadays:- The increase in numbers of IT "professionals" has been achieved by bringing into IT people which are not at all gifted for it.- The really good IT techies have been promoted to management because they are so much above the average and demand higher salaries.I look at the highly-motivate and little experienced me of 12 years ago and I see how much work I did for how little results (even though I was one of the gifted types, so I produced 4x - 10x more results than the average).
I can only begin to imagine how exceptionally unproductive somebody which is neither gifted (came into IT 'cause of the big salaries) nor experienced (doesn't stay in the technical side for long if any good) can be.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417615</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417995</id>
	<title>Re:#1:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245702780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Huh, most impoverished folks I've met are not merely poorly motivated, they're despondent.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Huh , most impoverished folks I 've met are not merely poorly motivated , they 're despondent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Huh, most impoverished folks I've met are not merely poorly motivated, they're despondent.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417615</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421399</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Baldrson</author>
	<datestamp>1245683040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A couple of pieces of history relevant to the transistor of which you are ignorant:<blockquote><div><p>On 17 November 1947 John Bardeen and Walter Brattain, at AT&amp;T Bell Labs, observed that when electrical contacts were applied to a crystal of germanium, the output power was larger than the input. William Shockley saw the potential in this and worked over the next few months greatly expanding the knowledge of semiconductors and could be described as the father of the transistor.</p></div></blockquote><p>
However John Bardeen was at the University of Illinois when I was there working on the PLATO system with Ray Ozzie, and in his lecture given at that time in Altgeld Hall, he disclosed that <i>he and Walter Brattain were told to stop work on the transistor by William Shockley</i>.  Brattainand Bardeen were, for a time, reduced to hiding their work from Shockley on a what Bardeen called their "rolly cart" which they hid in a closet during the day and rolled out at night when Shockley wasn't around.  There was a rumor that Bardeen gave this lecture because he was suffering from ill health and thought it important to disclose much that had previously gone undisclosed.
</p><p>
Now, I'm not here picking on Shockley as "one of those darn immigrants" because he <i>did</i> eventually come around.  He then took credit.  The same can probably be said for many immigrant managers of US inventors over the last several decades.
</p><p>
But there really is a big difference between the immigrants that came to the United States under the 1924 law as compared to those that have come under the 1965 law.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>A couple of pieces of history relevant to the transistor of which you are ignorant : On 17 November 1947 John Bardeen and Walter Brattain , at AT&amp;T Bell Labs , observed that when electrical contacts were applied to a crystal of germanium , the output power was larger than the input .
William Shockley saw the potential in this and worked over the next few months greatly expanding the knowledge of semiconductors and could be described as the father of the transistor .
However John Bardeen was at the University of Illinois when I was there working on the PLATO system with Ray Ozzie , and in his lecture given at that time in Altgeld Hall , he disclosed that he and Walter Brattain were told to stop work on the transistor by William Shockley .
Brattainand Bardeen were , for a time , reduced to hiding their work from Shockley on a what Bardeen called their " rolly cart " which they hid in a closet during the day and rolled out at night when Shockley was n't around .
There was a rumor that Bardeen gave this lecture because he was suffering from ill health and thought it important to disclose much that had previously gone undisclosed .
Now , I 'm not here picking on Shockley as " one of those darn immigrants " because he did eventually come around .
He then took credit .
The same can probably be said for many immigrant managers of US inventors over the last several decades .
But there really is a big difference between the immigrants that came to the United States under the 1924 law as compared to those that have come under the 1965 law .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A couple of pieces of history relevant to the transistor of which you are ignorant:On 17 November 1947 John Bardeen and Walter Brattain, at AT&amp;T Bell Labs, observed that when electrical contacts were applied to a crystal of germanium, the output power was larger than the input.
William Shockley saw the potential in this and worked over the next few months greatly expanding the knowledge of semiconductors and could be described as the father of the transistor.
However John Bardeen was at the University of Illinois when I was there working on the PLATO system with Ray Ozzie, and in his lecture given at that time in Altgeld Hall, he disclosed that he and Walter Brattain were told to stop work on the transistor by William Shockley.
Brattainand Bardeen were, for a time, reduced to hiding their work from Shockley on a what Bardeen called their "rolly cart" which they hid in a closet during the day and rolled out at night when Shockley wasn't around.
There was a rumor that Bardeen gave this lecture because he was suffering from ill health and thought it important to disclose much that had previously gone undisclosed.
Now, I'm not here picking on Shockley as "one of those darn immigrants" because he did eventually come around.
He then took credit.
The same can probably be said for many immigrant managers of US inventors over the last several decades.
But there really is a big difference between the immigrants that came to the United States under the 1924 law as compared to those that have come under the 1965 law.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418517</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28450157</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245834420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>About - IIT is not a breeding ground for great talent, rather superior attitudes.</p><p>Rajeev Motwani, Ravi Sethi, Vinod Dham, Kanval Rekhi, Rohit Parikh, Manindra Agarwaal, Vinod Khosla and many more are Indians (mostly IITians) you seem to be unaware of when you happily make that conclusion by urself. Google any of them. The list is endless.</p><p>My points are:</p><p>1) The guys you are talking about (outsourcing programmers and all the crap) are in most cases the average educated Indians.</p><p>2) When you think of India and Indians, you are comparing average and below average labourers (which is ubiquitous in India owing to its large under resourced and semi-trained population) of India with the superior graduates coming out of US versities.</p><p>3) As education penetrates more and more in developing countries, owing to the large population, sheer probability and statistics, China and India as nations stand a much greater chance to come neck to neck with you people in coding and such labourious as well as innovative things. (yes, coding is JUST labour, i m not talking about SRS and design docs).</p><p>4) I am a CS undergrad (yes, in IIT). One of my friends, who just had his first year of formal education in Computer Science is working as an intern in IBM research laboratory.</p><p>Now coming to your viewpoint, it surprises me that u never met a bright IITian in your life. I think one of the two reasons for this:<br>1) The IITians u met may have been mechanical or elctrical (and NOT CS) grads.<br>2) May be, You were outsmarted by one such CS grad.</p><p>Slashdot surprises me, when such a small, totally unjustified and half-baked post is give a score of 5.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>About - IIT is not a breeding ground for great talent , rather superior attitudes.Rajeev Motwani , Ravi Sethi , Vinod Dham , Kanval Rekhi , Rohit Parikh , Manindra Agarwaal , Vinod Khosla and many more are Indians ( mostly IITians ) you seem to be unaware of when you happily make that conclusion by urself .
Google any of them .
The list is endless.My points are : 1 ) The guys you are talking about ( outsourcing programmers and all the crap ) are in most cases the average educated Indians.2 ) When you think of India and Indians , you are comparing average and below average labourers ( which is ubiquitous in India owing to its large under resourced and semi-trained population ) of India with the superior graduates coming out of US versities.3 ) As education penetrates more and more in developing countries , owing to the large population , sheer probability and statistics , China and India as nations stand a much greater chance to come neck to neck with you people in coding and such labourious as well as innovative things .
( yes , coding is JUST labour , i m not talking about SRS and design docs ) .4 ) I am a CS undergrad ( yes , in IIT ) .
One of my friends , who just had his first year of formal education in Computer Science is working as an intern in IBM research laboratory.Now coming to your viewpoint , it surprises me that u never met a bright IITian in your life .
I think one of the two reasons for this : 1 ) The IITians u met may have been mechanical or elctrical ( and NOT CS ) grads.2 ) May be , You were outsmarted by one such CS grad.Slashdot surprises me , when such a small , totally unjustified and half-baked post is give a score of 5 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>About - IIT is not a breeding ground for great talent, rather superior attitudes.Rajeev Motwani, Ravi Sethi, Vinod Dham, Kanval Rekhi, Rohit Parikh, Manindra Agarwaal, Vinod Khosla and many more are Indians (mostly IITians) you seem to be unaware of when you happily make that conclusion by urself.
Google any of them.
The list is endless.My points are:1) The guys you are talking about (outsourcing programmers and all the crap) are in most cases the average educated Indians.2) When you think of India and Indians, you are comparing average and below average labourers (which is ubiquitous in India owing to its large under resourced and semi-trained population) of India with the superior graduates coming out of US versities.3) As education penetrates more and more in developing countries, owing to the large population, sheer probability and statistics, China and India as nations stand a much greater chance to come neck to neck with you people in coding and such labourious as well as innovative things.
(yes, coding is JUST labour, i m not talking about SRS and design docs).4) I am a CS undergrad (yes, in IIT).
One of my friends, who just had his first year of formal education in Computer Science is working as an intern in IBM research laboratory.Now coming to your viewpoint, it surprises me that u never met a bright IITian in your life.
I think one of the two reasons for this:1) The IITians u met may have been mechanical or elctrical (and NOT CS) grads.2) May be, You were outsmarted by one such CS grad.Slashdot surprises me, when such a small, totally unjustified and half-baked post is give a score of 5.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417421</id>
	<title>~*racists*~</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245611400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If they judged employability based on quality of code and not on skin color or nationality, most Indians would be considered unemployable. Just putting that out there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If they judged employability based on quality of code and not on skin color or nationality , most Indians would be considered unemployable .
Just putting that out there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If they judged employability based on quality of code and not on skin color or nationality, most Indians would be considered unemployable.
Just putting that out there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417887</id>
	<title>Well, let's follow the Indian model then</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245701700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Step 1: Spend entirety of college asking inane questions merely to signal to the professor that you are attending class and are engaged in the discussion.</p><p>Step 2: Get your MCSE.</p><p>Step 3: Get your masters in computer science from any university</p><p>Step 4: Adopt an unwavering affinity for the quickest possible solution to any and all programming problems.  Ignore maintenance or readability.  Ignore the inevitable requirements changes.  Eschew infrastructure and tools like build systems and source control because they take too much time to setup and configure.  Spam the message boards with URGENT pleas for help with some well-documented library* you can't seem to figure out.  Complete each task independently, no matter how much code is available for reuse.  Document NOTHING.</p><p>Step 5: Go to work for an outsourcing company with an enormous and proficient business development department.</p><p>Step 6: Profit!</p><p>I've seen this before at multiple companies.  I now do government contracting and enjoy the distinct lack of foreign outsourcing on work requiring a security clearance.</p><p>*Okay, that might be an oxymoron....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Step 1 : Spend entirety of college asking inane questions merely to signal to the professor that you are attending class and are engaged in the discussion.Step 2 : Get your MCSE.Step 3 : Get your masters in computer science from any universityStep 4 : Adopt an unwavering affinity for the quickest possible solution to any and all programming problems .
Ignore maintenance or readability .
Ignore the inevitable requirements changes .
Eschew infrastructure and tools like build systems and source control because they take too much time to setup and configure .
Spam the message boards with URGENT pleas for help with some well-documented library * you ca n't seem to figure out .
Complete each task independently , no matter how much code is available for reuse .
Document NOTHING.Step 5 : Go to work for an outsourcing company with an enormous and proficient business development department.Step 6 : Profit ! I 've seen this before at multiple companies .
I now do government contracting and enjoy the distinct lack of foreign outsourcing on work requiring a security clearance .
* Okay , that might be an oxymoron... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Step 1: Spend entirety of college asking inane questions merely to signal to the professor that you are attending class and are engaged in the discussion.Step 2: Get your MCSE.Step 3: Get your masters in computer science from any universityStep 4: Adopt an unwavering affinity for the quickest possible solution to any and all programming problems.
Ignore maintenance or readability.
Ignore the inevitable requirements changes.
Eschew infrastructure and tools like build systems and source control because they take too much time to setup and configure.
Spam the message boards with URGENT pleas for help with some well-documented library* you can't seem to figure out.
Complete each task independently, no matter how much code is available for reuse.
Document NOTHING.Step 5: Go to work for an outsourcing company with an enormous and proficient business development department.Step 6: Profit!I've seen this before at multiple companies.
I now do government contracting and enjoy the distinct lack of foreign outsourcing on work requiring a security clearance.
*Okay, that might be an oxymoron....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28520071</id>
	<title>Re:India: The skrypt kiddies of programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246270860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And that is why the American economy has traditionally been so strong. We give the best and brightest the opportunity to come work with us.</p><p>I still think it kind of suck that the rest of the world doesn't offer me that opporunity. I think I would be better off with a larger job pool to choose from. But I suppose I should be thankful to have been born in the most successful job pool on the planet.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And that is why the American economy has traditionally been so strong .
We give the best and brightest the opportunity to come work with us.I still think it kind of suck that the rest of the world does n't offer me that opporunity .
I think I would be better off with a larger job pool to choose from .
But I suppose I should be thankful to have been born in the most successful job pool on the planet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And that is why the American economy has traditionally been so strong.
We give the best and brightest the opportunity to come work with us.I still think it kind of suck that the rest of the world doesn't offer me that opporunity.
I think I would be better off with a larger job pool to choose from.
But I suppose I should be thankful to have been born in the most successful job pool on the planet.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417683</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28429459</id>
	<title>Outsourcing</title>
	<author>inkrypted</author>
	<datestamp>1245667080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>See and you thought Bill Gates was the root of all evil.</htmltext>
<tokenext>See and you thought Bill Gates was the root of all evil .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>See and you thought Bill Gates was the root of all evil.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417615</id>
	<title>#1:</title>
	<author>circletimessquare</author>
	<datestamp>1245613080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>if you are poor, you tend to be more highly motivated than when you are rich (and yes, middle class, or even lower middle class american counts as rich in this world)</p><p>#2:<br>if you are poor, you can be paid a lot less to do the same job than someone less motivated and in a better socioeconomic position</p><p>do you know what #1 and #2 are? facts. now mod me troll and flamebait, but you know i speak the truth. deal with it (or more likely, suppress my words and go on whining)</p><p>computer programming is a rather interesting skill in the internet age: if you have a terminal, and a keyboard, all that matters is the quality of the mind behind those two things. doesn't matter where you are, doesn't matter your age, doesn't matter your education level. here on slashdot, we are all familiar with the internet as a universal leveller when it comes to things like music distribution or political dissent. well guess what: it applies to computer programming as a career choice as well</p><p>that fact is not nice if you are rich westerner, but it is still a fact nonetheless: you have a hell of a lot of highly motivated, much cheaper competition out there. deal with it, or whine. but i don't see what the whining is supposed to get you except self-righteous victimization. it certainly won't get rid of the competition or get you higher pay</p><p>life is not always kind folks. just fucking deal with it already and stop the pathetic whining</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>if you are poor , you tend to be more highly motivated than when you are rich ( and yes , middle class , or even lower middle class american counts as rich in this world ) # 2 : if you are poor , you can be paid a lot less to do the same job than someone less motivated and in a better socioeconomic positiondo you know what # 1 and # 2 are ?
facts. now mod me troll and flamebait , but you know i speak the truth .
deal with it ( or more likely , suppress my words and go on whining ) computer programming is a rather interesting skill in the internet age : if you have a terminal , and a keyboard , all that matters is the quality of the mind behind those two things .
does n't matter where you are , does n't matter your age , does n't matter your education level .
here on slashdot , we are all familiar with the internet as a universal leveller when it comes to things like music distribution or political dissent .
well guess what : it applies to computer programming as a career choice as wellthat fact is not nice if you are rich westerner , but it is still a fact nonetheless : you have a hell of a lot of highly motivated , much cheaper competition out there .
deal with it , or whine .
but i do n't see what the whining is supposed to get you except self-righteous victimization .
it certainly wo n't get rid of the competition or get you higher paylife is not always kind folks .
just fucking deal with it already and stop the pathetic whining</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if you are poor, you tend to be more highly motivated than when you are rich (and yes, middle class, or even lower middle class american counts as rich in this world)#2:if you are poor, you can be paid a lot less to do the same job than someone less motivated and in a better socioeconomic positiondo you know what #1 and #2 are?
facts. now mod me troll and flamebait, but you know i speak the truth.
deal with it (or more likely, suppress my words and go on whining)computer programming is a rather interesting skill in the internet age: if you have a terminal, and a keyboard, all that matters is the quality of the mind behind those two things.
doesn't matter where you are, doesn't matter your age, doesn't matter your education level.
here on slashdot, we are all familiar with the internet as a universal leveller when it comes to things like music distribution or political dissent.
well guess what: it applies to computer programming as a career choice as wellthat fact is not nice if you are rich westerner, but it is still a fact nonetheless: you have a hell of a lot of highly motivated, much cheaper competition out there.
deal with it, or whine.
but i don't see what the whining is supposed to get you except self-righteous victimization.
it certainly won't get rid of the competition or get you higher paylife is not always kind folks.
just fucking deal with it already and stop the pathetic whining</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418929</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Yuuki Dasu</author>
	<datestamp>1245668100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Products are not priced to bring in a "fair" level of profit.  They are priced to bring in the absolute most profit possible, by finding the sweet intersection of supply and demand where profit is maximized.  In practice, markets are divided up with import/export restrictions, region coding, etc to break up the market into submarkets with their own sweet spots, allowing even more profit.  If these market barriers weren't there (I could buy movies, medicine, etc online from India, for example), the bottom line is that prices in the US and Europe would fall, and prices in India and elsewhere would rise, until they met a level more or less approximating equilibrium.  It would still be set to overall earn companies the most profit.</p><p>This is not completely a black-and-white issue, as rising medicine prices would certainly decrease the quality of life in the third world.  However, it's clearly untenable to move all production and work to India, where the market discrimination effects dirt-cheap living, and still expect to be able to milk full price from the thereby unemployed workers from the US and Europe - a future which we certainly appear to be heading to.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Products are not priced to bring in a " fair " level of profit .
They are priced to bring in the absolute most profit possible , by finding the sweet intersection of supply and demand where profit is maximized .
In practice , markets are divided up with import/export restrictions , region coding , etc to break up the market into submarkets with their own sweet spots , allowing even more profit .
If these market barriers were n't there ( I could buy movies , medicine , etc online from India , for example ) , the bottom line is that prices in the US and Europe would fall , and prices in India and elsewhere would rise , until they met a level more or less approximating equilibrium .
It would still be set to overall earn companies the most profit.This is not completely a black-and-white issue , as rising medicine prices would certainly decrease the quality of life in the third world .
However , it 's clearly untenable to move all production and work to India , where the market discrimination effects dirt-cheap living , and still expect to be able to milk full price from the thereby unemployed workers from the US and Europe - a future which we certainly appear to be heading to .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Products are not priced to bring in a "fair" level of profit.
They are priced to bring in the absolute most profit possible, by finding the sweet intersection of supply and demand where profit is maximized.
In practice, markets are divided up with import/export restrictions, region coding, etc to break up the market into submarkets with their own sweet spots, allowing even more profit.
If these market barriers weren't there (I could buy movies, medicine, etc online from India, for example), the bottom line is that prices in the US and Europe would fall, and prices in India and elsewhere would rise, until they met a level more or less approximating equilibrium.
It would still be set to overall earn companies the most profit.This is not completely a black-and-white issue, as rising medicine prices would certainly decrease the quality of life in the third world.
However, it's clearly untenable to move all production and work to India, where the market discrimination effects dirt-cheap living, and still expect to be able to milk full price from the thereby unemployed workers from the US and Europe - a future which we certainly appear to be heading to.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418367</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419283</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245670980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Dell support sucks when you end up talking to India, and people would almost prefer to wait on hold for an hour for REAL tech support instead of some incomprehensible idiot reading a script that barely knows more than your average 80-year-old computer user.     Honestly, does anyone see real value in the oursourced tech support that is nothing more than someone reading off a screen?</p><p>HP was better when you could talk to someone in either the USA or Canada that speaks English and actually knows the product well enough to work WITH the customer, supplementing the knowledge a skilled person knows with information only available to employees to get a problem resolved.    These days, it is hard to even suggest buying ANY device, because if there is a problem, tech support is the last place people want to turn for help.</p><p>India....bah, give jobs to the unemployed auto workers in the USA.   They may not be thrilled with not making $75/hour, but once they are off unemployment, any job is better than no job.    How about all the other people in the USA who are out of work without finding companies who are looking to hire in this economic climate.    Back in the days before the Internet and when it cost money to send tech support out of the country, technical support was considered an entry level job for people just getting started after college.</p><p>Technical support was about helping the customer get their problems solved, and not some glorified customer service job, and companies could find good people there when there were job openings.    It is a shame what a bunch of MBA types with no understanding of what technical support is/was did to the technical support position, which was to make it a division of customer service, and treat it the same way by putting time limits on calls.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Dell support sucks when you end up talking to India , and people would almost prefer to wait on hold for an hour for REAL tech support instead of some incomprehensible idiot reading a script that barely knows more than your average 80-year-old computer user .
Honestly , does anyone see real value in the oursourced tech support that is nothing more than someone reading off a screen ? HP was better when you could talk to someone in either the USA or Canada that speaks English and actually knows the product well enough to work WITH the customer , supplementing the knowledge a skilled person knows with information only available to employees to get a problem resolved .
These days , it is hard to even suggest buying ANY device , because if there is a problem , tech support is the last place people want to turn for help.India....bah , give jobs to the unemployed auto workers in the USA .
They may not be thrilled with not making $ 75/hour , but once they are off unemployment , any job is better than no job .
How about all the other people in the USA who are out of work without finding companies who are looking to hire in this economic climate .
Back in the days before the Internet and when it cost money to send tech support out of the country , technical support was considered an entry level job for people just getting started after college.Technical support was about helping the customer get their problems solved , and not some glorified customer service job , and companies could find good people there when there were job openings .
It is a shame what a bunch of MBA types with no understanding of what technical support is/was did to the technical support position , which was to make it a division of customer service , and treat it the same way by putting time limits on calls .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dell support sucks when you end up talking to India, and people would almost prefer to wait on hold for an hour for REAL tech support instead of some incomprehensible idiot reading a script that barely knows more than your average 80-year-old computer user.
Honestly, does anyone see real value in the oursourced tech support that is nothing more than someone reading off a screen?HP was better when you could talk to someone in either the USA or Canada that speaks English and actually knows the product well enough to work WITH the customer, supplementing the knowledge a skilled person knows with information only available to employees to get a problem resolved.
These days, it is hard to even suggest buying ANY device, because if there is a problem, tech support is the last place people want to turn for help.India....bah, give jobs to the unemployed auto workers in the USA.
They may not be thrilled with not making $75/hour, but once they are off unemployment, any job is better than no job.
How about all the other people in the USA who are out of work without finding companies who are looking to hire in this economic climate.
Back in the days before the Internet and when it cost money to send tech support out of the country, technical support was considered an entry level job for people just getting started after college.Technical support was about helping the customer get their problems solved, and not some glorified customer service job, and companies could find good people there when there were job openings.
It is a shame what a bunch of MBA types with no understanding of what technical support is/was did to the technical support position, which was to make it a division of customer service, and treat it the same way by putting time limits on calls.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425717</id>
	<title>Re:What a crock of shit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245697620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your assumption is that all Americans code well and all foreigners code crap. Its not always black and white. I have seen many crappy American programmers and many more in tech lead positions who have no clue on how it is supposed to be implemented. In the past, we have outsourced many projects to American companies (with American workers) and 99\% of the time, the code was buggy and unreliable. I guess the problem is with the nature of the outsourced projects. The people working on it have no attachment to the end product.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your assumption is that all Americans code well and all foreigners code crap .
Its not always black and white .
I have seen many crappy American programmers and many more in tech lead positions who have no clue on how it is supposed to be implemented .
In the past , we have outsourced many projects to American companies ( with American workers ) and 99 \ % of the time , the code was buggy and unreliable .
I guess the problem is with the nature of the outsourced projects .
The people working on it have no attachment to the end product .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your assumption is that all Americans code well and all foreigners code crap.
Its not always black and white.
I have seen many crappy American programmers and many more in tech lead positions who have no clue on how it is supposed to be implemented.
In the past, we have outsourced many projects to American companies (with American workers) and 99\% of the time, the code was buggy and unreliable.
I guess the problem is with the nature of the outsourced projects.
The people working on it have no attachment to the end product.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417661</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424883</id>
	<title>Two thumbs up what?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245694740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Steve Ballface can take his two thumbs-up and every chair in his office, the MS Boardroom, and hell even the fucking production floor and stick them all up his ass.</p><p>If he thinks it's better to outsource jobs, then maybe Microsoft should move to India.  Cost of living is better there and he can have a Solid gold Building with all the money he can save by moving there.</p><p>If you don't like Americans, get out of America so we can cut the loss and bullshit and let the rest of the people do what they need to survive.</p><p>Likewise, any company that produces something that cuts cost by decreasing their production staff should look at the big hole they're shooting in their foot.  It does no good for the sales people who aren't selling anyway to sell more if the company can't produce what is being sold.</p><p>Fuck you Steve, 20 years ago you could make a good living simply by being willing to work, now you have to spend $40,000 just to take a gamble at an entry-level job that *surprise* you probably won't get because it's being sent out of the country.</p><p>I'm a fan of survival of the fittest and a market driven economy, but lately it seems like business is providing the bare minimum to call a product functional and making sure no one else is able/allowed to produce a better competing product.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Steve Ballface can take his two thumbs-up and every chair in his office , the MS Boardroom , and hell even the fucking production floor and stick them all up his ass.If he thinks it 's better to outsource jobs , then maybe Microsoft should move to India .
Cost of living is better there and he can have a Solid gold Building with all the money he can save by moving there.If you do n't like Americans , get out of America so we can cut the loss and bullshit and let the rest of the people do what they need to survive.Likewise , any company that produces something that cuts cost by decreasing their production staff should look at the big hole they 're shooting in their foot .
It does no good for the sales people who are n't selling anyway to sell more if the company ca n't produce what is being sold.Fuck you Steve , 20 years ago you could make a good living simply by being willing to work , now you have to spend $ 40,000 just to take a gamble at an entry-level job that * surprise * you probably wo n't get because it 's being sent out of the country.I 'm a fan of survival of the fittest and a market driven economy , but lately it seems like business is providing the bare minimum to call a product functional and making sure no one else is able/allowed to produce a better competing product .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Steve Ballface can take his two thumbs-up and every chair in his office, the MS Boardroom, and hell even the fucking production floor and stick them all up his ass.If he thinks it's better to outsource jobs, then maybe Microsoft should move to India.
Cost of living is better there and he can have a Solid gold Building with all the money he can save by moving there.If you don't like Americans, get out of America so we can cut the loss and bullshit and let the rest of the people do what they need to survive.Likewise, any company that produces something that cuts cost by decreasing their production staff should look at the big hole they're shooting in their foot.
It does no good for the sales people who aren't selling anyway to sell more if the company can't produce what is being sold.Fuck you Steve, 20 years ago you could make a good living simply by being willing to work, now you have to spend $40,000 just to take a gamble at an entry-level job that *surprise* you probably won't get because it's being sent out of the country.I'm a fan of survival of the fittest and a market driven economy, but lately it seems like business is providing the bare minimum to call a product functional and making sure no one else is able/allowed to produce a better competing product.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28432727</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>laddiebuck</author>
	<datestamp>1245680040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Here's a question for you. How many were from non-Western countries? The only effect of halting US immigration would be to shift global leadership to other Western countries, which at this point collectively means the EU. Not India, which is what we're discussing at the moment. Nor yet China or Japan or Africa or Latin America, you can bet on it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's a question for you .
How many were from non-Western countries ?
The only effect of halting US immigration would be to shift global leadership to other Western countries , which at this point collectively means the EU .
Not India , which is what we 're discussing at the moment .
Nor yet China or Japan or Africa or Latin America , you can bet on it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's a question for you.
How many were from non-Western countries?
The only effect of halting US immigration would be to shift global leadership to other Western countries, which at this point collectively means the EU.
Not India, which is what we're discussing at the moment.
Nor yet China or Japan or Africa or Latin America, you can bet on it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418517</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418911</id>
	<title>What a load of bullshit.</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1245667860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>people in India working in similar jobs enjoy most of the amenities you are describing.</p><p>If you really think that people competing against you live in mud huts then you are really deluded.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>people in India working in similar jobs enjoy most of the amenities you are describing.If you really think that people competing against you live in mud huts then you are really deluded .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>people in India working in similar jobs enjoy most of the amenities you are describing.If you really think that people competing against you live in mud huts then you are really deluded.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417645</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419771</id>
	<title>Re:Unemployable?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245675000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The day Indian coders get overtime and some basic rights, overall code quality will start going up.Indian employers are the stingiest bastards I've seen. The HR industry in India is full of one shady agent/broker/pimp after another.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The day Indian coders get overtime and some basic rights , overall code quality will start going up.Indian employers are the stingiest bastards I 've seen .
The HR industry in India is full of one shady agent/broker/pimp after another .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The day Indian coders get overtime and some basic rights, overall code quality will start going up.Indian employers are the stingiest bastards I've seen.
The HR industry in India is full of one shady agent/broker/pimp after another.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417645</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419399</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>mrvan</author>
	<datestamp>1245672000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is that "free trade" should mean that the price in market A cannot be more than the price in market B plus costs for transportation to and sale in market A. Any person or company should be free to fly to india, buy 5000 copies of the latest DVD, fly back, and sell those DVD's for any price he or she likes. That *is* free trade.</p><p>Companies, especially if they sell a non-commodity (ie there is no competitor with the exact same product; compare bricks to dvds), love segmenting markets so they can maximize their profit. Offering student discounts is a prime example of this: students have less expandable income, so the optimal price for them (ie the intersection of supply and demand curves) is lower than for non-students [ignoring the 'hook 'em while they're young' argument]. Market segmentation is always good for the company selling goods, and can be bad for the consumer on the wrong end of the segmentation.</p><p>Free trade *should* limit the ability of companies to segment markets based on geography just as anti-discrimination practices *should* limit their ability to segment based on race, gender, religion etc, which are also good proxies of income (eg <a href="http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income\_wealth/005647.html" title="census.gov">http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income\_wealth/005647.html</a> [census.gov]; blacks earn (median) 30k, hispanics 34k, whites 49k and asians 58k). Just imagine having separate prices for black people and white people!</p><p>By granting companies the sole right to distribute something and enforce that right using the courts, international treaties, customs, and DRM, we are allowing them to operate as if free trade does not apply to them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is that " free trade " should mean that the price in market A can not be more than the price in market B plus costs for transportation to and sale in market A. Any person or company should be free to fly to india , buy 5000 copies of the latest DVD , fly back , and sell those DVD 's for any price he or she likes .
That * is * free trade.Companies , especially if they sell a non-commodity ( ie there is no competitor with the exact same product ; compare bricks to dvds ) , love segmenting markets so they can maximize their profit .
Offering student discounts is a prime example of this : students have less expandable income , so the optimal price for them ( ie the intersection of supply and demand curves ) is lower than for non-students [ ignoring the 'hook 'em while they 're young ' argument ] .
Market segmentation is always good for the company selling goods , and can be bad for the consumer on the wrong end of the segmentation.Free trade * should * limit the ability of companies to segment markets based on geography just as anti-discrimination practices * should * limit their ability to segment based on race , gender , religion etc , which are also good proxies of income ( eg http : //www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income \ _wealth/005647.html [ census.gov ] ; blacks earn ( median ) 30k , hispanics 34k , whites 49k and asians 58k ) .
Just imagine having separate prices for black people and white people ! By granting companies the sole right to distribute something and enforce that right using the courts , international treaties , customs , and DRM , we are allowing them to operate as if free trade does not apply to them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is that "free trade" should mean that the price in market A cannot be more than the price in market B plus costs for transportation to and sale in market A. Any person or company should be free to fly to india, buy 5000 copies of the latest DVD, fly back, and sell those DVD's for any price he or she likes.
That *is* free trade.Companies, especially if they sell a non-commodity (ie there is no competitor with the exact same product; compare bricks to dvds), love segmenting markets so they can maximize their profit.
Offering student discounts is a prime example of this: students have less expandable income, so the optimal price for them (ie the intersection of supply and demand curves) is lower than for non-students [ignoring the 'hook 'em while they're young' argument].
Market segmentation is always good for the company selling goods, and can be bad for the consumer on the wrong end of the segmentation.Free trade *should* limit the ability of companies to segment markets based on geography just as anti-discrimination practices *should* limit their ability to segment based on race, gender, religion etc, which are also good proxies of income (eg http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income\_wealth/005647.html [census.gov]; blacks earn (median) 30k, hispanics 34k, whites 49k and asians 58k).
Just imagine having separate prices for black people and white people!By granting companies the sole right to distribute something and enforce that right using the courts, international treaties, customs, and DRM, we are allowing them to operate as if free trade does not apply to them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418367</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425817</id>
	<title>What I have noticed that makes Americans great</title>
	<author>Emperor Shaddam IV</author>
	<datestamp>1245698040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm sorry, the joke is on the Indians.</p><p>H1B is part of a secret plan to destroy India's culture....</p><p>In fact, many of the better H1B coders I know from India have become American citizens, are raising their kids in America, and have started to do things like listen to Heavy Metal, play video games, buy fast cars, drink "heinous" amounts of beer, eat meat every day and other "bad" habits that make Americans who they are.</p><p>Meanwhile, I don't see many American girls wearing Sair's or American kids watching Bollywood movies...</p><p>Muha-ha-ha!!!</p><p>India may take the IT market - but America is conquering India and winning in a cultural war.</p><p>Its only a matter of time before India will have a McDonalds on every corner and 50 WalMarts in Mumbai - and Hindi and Muslim kids everywhere in India will be listening to Metallica or Ministry on the weekends while they are eating a Big Mac and fries instead of going to temple or mosque.</p><p>The jokes on you guys!!!  So what - maybe you take our jobs.  You will send the money right back to us while you buy our food, music, movies, video games, and clothing...</p><p>HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sorry , the joke is on the Indians.H1B is part of a secret plan to destroy India 's culture....In fact , many of the better H1B coders I know from India have become American citizens , are raising their kids in America , and have started to do things like listen to Heavy Metal , play video games , buy fast cars , drink " heinous " amounts of beer , eat meat every day and other " bad " habits that make Americans who they are.Meanwhile , I do n't see many American girls wearing Sair 's or American kids watching Bollywood movies...Muha-ha-ha ! !
! India may take the IT market - but America is conquering India and winning in a cultural war.Its only a matter of time before India will have a McDonalds on every corner and 50 WalMarts in Mumbai - and Hindi and Muslim kids everywhere in India will be listening to Metallica or Ministry on the weekends while they are eating a Big Mac and fries instead of going to temple or mosque.The jokes on you guys ! ! !
So what - maybe you take our jobs .
You will send the money right back to us while you buy our food , music , movies , video games , and clothing...HAHAHAHAHAH ! ! ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sorry, the joke is on the Indians.H1B is part of a secret plan to destroy India's culture....In fact, many of the better H1B coders I know from India have become American citizens, are raising their kids in America, and have started to do things like listen to Heavy Metal, play video games, buy fast cars, drink "heinous" amounts of beer, eat meat every day and other "bad" habits that make Americans who they are.Meanwhile, I don't see many American girls wearing Sair's or American kids watching Bollywood movies...Muha-ha-ha!!
!India may take the IT market - but America is conquering India and winning in a cultural war.Its only a matter of time before India will have a McDonalds on every corner and 50 WalMarts in Mumbai - and Hindi and Muslim kids everywhere in India will be listening to Metallica or Ministry on the weekends while they are eating a Big Mac and fries instead of going to temple or mosque.The jokes on you guys!!!
So what - maybe you take our jobs.
You will send the money right back to us while you buy our food, music, movies, video games, and clothing...HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28455351</id>
	<title>Outsource Ballmer</title>
	<author>Virtucon</author>
	<datestamp>1245868860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe Ballmer should be outsourced.</p><p>Frankly, it comes down to money. It always does.</p><p>It's not that "right shored" workers can do the job better, it's that they do it for less money.  That's the sales pitch that many CIOs believe and<br>it's a load of crap.  EDS (HP) and all the other consulting firms preach this relentlessly.  There's lots of talented people all over the world but frankly perpetuating a caste system in IT does nothing but exploit workers in other countries while giving Directors and Shareholders a perceived value.  Once you've dealt with a "Right Shored" outsourcing project you can see why it never works out properly.  Is it worth a couple of bucks to put your neighbor out of work?  I don't think it is.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe Ballmer should be outsourced.Frankly , it comes down to money .
It always does.It 's not that " right shored " workers can do the job better , it 's that they do it for less money .
That 's the sales pitch that many CIOs believe andit 's a load of crap .
EDS ( HP ) and all the other consulting firms preach this relentlessly .
There 's lots of talented people all over the world but frankly perpetuating a caste system in IT does nothing but exploit workers in other countries while giving Directors and Shareholders a perceived value .
Once you 've dealt with a " Right Shored " outsourcing project you can see why it never works out properly .
Is it worth a couple of bucks to put your neighbor out of work ?
I do n't think it is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe Ballmer should be outsourced.Frankly, it comes down to money.
It always does.It's not that "right shored" workers can do the job better, it's that they do it for less money.
That's the sales pitch that many CIOs believe andit's a load of crap.
EDS (HP) and all the other consulting firms preach this relentlessly.
There's lots of talented people all over the world but frankly perpetuating a caste system in IT does nothing but exploit workers in other countries while giving Directors and Shareholders a perceived value.
Once you've dealt with a "Right Shored" outsourcing project you can see why it never works out properly.
Is it worth a couple of bucks to put your neighbor out of work?
I don't think it is.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417725</id>
	<title>recently laid off from a job with an Indian co.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245613860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Worked in a call center in the US run by an Indian company for over a year fairly recently. Talked with counterparts in India. The difference is really obvious- Indians kiss the bosses ass way, way, \_way\_ better than Americans. They didn't necessarily know what the hell they were talking about, technically, but they could sure fake it well enough to satisfy the boss. Hard to blame them, really. Obviously they all know that there are about a billion people waiting in line to take their job if they say the wrong thing to the boss.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Worked in a call center in the US run by an Indian company for over a year fairly recently .
Talked with counterparts in India .
The difference is really obvious- Indians kiss the bosses ass way , way , \ _way \ _ better than Americans .
They did n't necessarily know what the hell they were talking about , technically , but they could sure fake it well enough to satisfy the boss .
Hard to blame them , really .
Obviously they all know that there are about a billion people waiting in line to take their job if they say the wrong thing to the boss .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Worked in a call center in the US run by an Indian company for over a year fairly recently.
Talked with counterparts in India.
The difference is really obvious- Indians kiss the bosses ass way, way, \_way\_ better than Americans.
They didn't necessarily know what the hell they were talking about, technically, but they could sure fake it well enough to satisfy the boss.
Hard to blame them, really.
Obviously they all know that there are about a billion people waiting in line to take their job if they say the wrong thing to the boss.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418803</id>
	<title>Re:Name an "Indian" project that went well</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245666840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd love to see some of these comments mentioned in Forrester or Gartner research on the subject. Perhaps that would stop some of the CxO whackos sacrificing their staff and code quality to the almighty saved-dollar (that wasn't saved at all).</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd love to see some of these comments mentioned in Forrester or Gartner research on the subject .
Perhaps that would stop some of the CxO whackos sacrificing their staff and code quality to the almighty saved-dollar ( that was n't saved at all ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd love to see some of these comments mentioned in Forrester or Gartner research on the subject.
Perhaps that would stop some of the CxO whackos sacrificing their staff and code quality to the almighty saved-dollar (that wasn't saved at all).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417823</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419637</id>
	<title>Re:He has a bit of a point</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245673800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I had to take a few seconds before posting this comment because I was laughing too hard to do anything. I'm a Maths grad student in India and classmates of mine from school used to bring their 'projects' to me when I was an undergrad. The funny thing about these 'projects' is this: While the title and description sound interesting and sometimes quite innovative, the actual 'project' itself is crap. And for good reason!<br><br>These 'projects' are rarely written by the student or his team, they are almost always purchased for a certain sum of money from a 'project center', which is a place that capitalises on the fact that regulations require engineering students (including IT) to have a 'project' for their final year. They provide turn-key projects that the student pays for and then later shows to his department as his own work. In many colleges, this is standard. Some even have agreements with certain project centres!<br><br>As for the quality of the project, if it was a web application, there would be important parts missing (one of my friends showed me a 'project' which was totally incomplete, just the shell of a login mechanism) and if it was a desktop application, it would not compile! One of these was a JSP project that ran on Apache Tomcat and the code was written in all caps \_everywhere\_ with no or unorthodox line breaks, and unused variables lying everywhere, and the syntax for all the JDBC queries was all wrong. This was just what I, an inexperienced and mostly mediocre coder, noticed and had to change to make the project readable and working. It was terrible.<br><br>Everyone involved is working for Infosys now.&lt;/pre&gt;</htmltext>
<tokenext>I had to take a few seconds before posting this comment because I was laughing too hard to do anything .
I 'm a Maths grad student in India and classmates of mine from school used to bring their 'projects ' to me when I was an undergrad .
The funny thing about these 'projects ' is this : While the title and description sound interesting and sometimes quite innovative , the actual 'project ' itself is crap .
And for good reason ! These 'projects ' are rarely written by the student or his team , they are almost always purchased for a certain sum of money from a 'project center ' , which is a place that capitalises on the fact that regulations require engineering students ( including IT ) to have a 'project ' for their final year .
They provide turn-key projects that the student pays for and then later shows to his department as his own work .
In many colleges , this is standard .
Some even have agreements with certain project centres ! As for the quality of the project , if it was a web application , there would be important parts missing ( one of my friends showed me a 'project ' which was totally incomplete , just the shell of a login mechanism ) and if it was a desktop application , it would not compile !
One of these was a JSP project that ran on Apache Tomcat and the code was written in all caps \ _everywhere \ _ with no or unorthodox line breaks , and unused variables lying everywhere , and the syntax for all the JDBC queries was all wrong .
This was just what I , an inexperienced and mostly mediocre coder , noticed and had to change to make the project readable and working .
It was terrible.Everyone involved is working for Infosys now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had to take a few seconds before posting this comment because I was laughing too hard to do anything.
I'm a Maths grad student in India and classmates of mine from school used to bring their 'projects' to me when I was an undergrad.
The funny thing about these 'projects' is this: While the title and description sound interesting and sometimes quite innovative, the actual 'project' itself is crap.
And for good reason!These 'projects' are rarely written by the student or his team, they are almost always purchased for a certain sum of money from a 'project center', which is a place that capitalises on the fact that regulations require engineering students (including IT) to have a 'project' for their final year.
They provide turn-key projects that the student pays for and then later shows to his department as his own work.
In many colleges, this is standard.
Some even have agreements with certain project centres!As for the quality of the project, if it was a web application, there would be important parts missing (one of my friends showed me a 'project' which was totally incomplete, just the shell of a login mechanism) and if it was a desktop application, it would not compile!
One of these was a JSP project that ran on Apache Tomcat and the code was written in all caps \_everywhere\_ with no or unorthodox line breaks, and unused variables lying everywhere, and the syntax for all the JDBC queries was all wrong.
This was just what I, an inexperienced and mostly mediocre coder, noticed and had to change to make the project readable and working.
It was terrible.Everyone involved is working for Infosys now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417533</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420805</id>
	<title>Re:...News at 11.</title>
	<author>R2.0</author>
	<datestamp>1245680940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"CEO of GM says that GM is a better company than Toyota."</p><p>Really?  All I've ever heard Obama say is how shitty GM is.  It's the only thing he and I agree on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" CEO of GM says that GM is a better company than Toyota. " Really ?
All I 've ever heard Obama say is how shitty GM is .
It 's the only thing he and I agree on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"CEO of GM says that GM is a better company than Toyota."Really?
All I've ever heard Obama say is how shitty GM is.
It's the only thing he and I agree on.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417493</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422945</id>
	<title>Indian Tech Grads Unemployable</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245688140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A study of major software development firms has shown that most Indian tech grads are unemployable due to the fact that they can't speak understandable english, have poor personal hygiene, and in general can't grasp basic programming concepts.  It seems most have to have their hands held and be shown how to do anything and don't extrapolate new algorithms from those previously seen.  H1-B is BS especially in this economy.  Indians: STAY HOME WE DON"T WANT YOU IN THE US!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A study of major software development firms has shown that most Indian tech grads are unemployable due to the fact that they ca n't speak understandable english , have poor personal hygiene , and in general ca n't grasp basic programming concepts .
It seems most have to have their hands held and be shown how to do anything and do n't extrapolate new algorithms from those previously seen .
H1-B is BS especially in this economy .
Indians : STAY HOME WE DON " T WANT YOU IN THE US !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A study of major software development firms has shown that most Indian tech grads are unemployable due to the fact that they can't speak understandable english, have poor personal hygiene, and in general can't grasp basic programming concepts.
It seems most have to have their hands held and be shown how to do anything and don't extrapolate new algorithms from those previously seen.
H1-B is BS especially in this economy.
Indians: STAY HOME WE DON"T WANT YOU IN THE US!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420099</id>
	<title>I'm sorry, Slashdot</title>
	<author>petrus4</author>
	<datestamp>1245677340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe it's because I haven't had a job that has been outsourced, but I cannot feel racist towards India; if anything, it's entirely the opposite.</p><p>I'm Caucasian myself, I admit; but to the degree that a white individual is able to at least, I converted to Hinduism three years ago.  I am helplessly in love with virtually everything about the country that I have been able to discover; its' religion, its' music, its' art, its' architecture, its' food...all of it.  My reaction to the recent racist violence towards Indians here in Melbourne has been one of grief and concern.</p><p>I cannot resent the Indian people themselves for international corporations having outsourced to their country, as well; that is hardly their fault, despite the fact that, of course, they are going to economically benefit from it.  Still, India is a country which in places is still desperately poor; infusions of money there could potentially save large numbers of lives.</p><p>We do need to find ways to turn corporate focus back towards the West as well, yes; but I feel that if corporations and subsequent money and opportunities go to Third World countries, it is only mean-spirited of us to resent their populations for it.  They are gaining the opportunity now to have a standard of living which we have already had for a long time; I feel happy for them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe it 's because I have n't had a job that has been outsourced , but I can not feel racist towards India ; if anything , it 's entirely the opposite.I 'm Caucasian myself , I admit ; but to the degree that a white individual is able to at least , I converted to Hinduism three years ago .
I am helplessly in love with virtually everything about the country that I have been able to discover ; its ' religion , its ' music , its ' art , its ' architecture , its ' food...all of it .
My reaction to the recent racist violence towards Indians here in Melbourne has been one of grief and concern.I can not resent the Indian people themselves for international corporations having outsourced to their country , as well ; that is hardly their fault , despite the fact that , of course , they are going to economically benefit from it .
Still , India is a country which in places is still desperately poor ; infusions of money there could potentially save large numbers of lives.We do need to find ways to turn corporate focus back towards the West as well , yes ; but I feel that if corporations and subsequent money and opportunities go to Third World countries , it is only mean-spirited of us to resent their populations for it .
They are gaining the opportunity now to have a standard of living which we have already had for a long time ; I feel happy for them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe it's because I haven't had a job that has been outsourced, but I cannot feel racist towards India; if anything, it's entirely the opposite.I'm Caucasian myself, I admit; but to the degree that a white individual is able to at least, I converted to Hinduism three years ago.
I am helplessly in love with virtually everything about the country that I have been able to discover; its' religion, its' music, its' art, its' architecture, its' food...all of it.
My reaction to the recent racist violence towards Indians here in Melbourne has been one of grief and concern.I cannot resent the Indian people themselves for international corporations having outsourced to their country, as well; that is hardly their fault, despite the fact that, of course, they are going to economically benefit from it.
Still, India is a country which in places is still desperately poor; infusions of money there could potentially save large numbers of lives.We do need to find ways to turn corporate focus back towards the West as well, yes; but I feel that if corporations and subsequent money and opportunities go to Third World countries, it is only mean-spirited of us to resent their populations for it.
They are gaining the opportunity now to have a standard of living which we have already had for a long time; I feel happy for them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417731</id>
	<title>The funniest thing</title>
	<author>mehtars</author>
	<datestamp>1245613920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The funniest thing is, in my CS classes apx 30\% were from India and 30\% from rest of Asia. The remainder were mostly white Americans.

<br> <br>
These ratios were pretty much consistent throughout pretty much the entire engineering school.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The funniest thing is , in my CS classes apx 30 \ % were from India and 30 \ % from rest of Asia .
The remainder were mostly white Americans .
These ratios were pretty much consistent throughout pretty much the entire engineering school .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The funniest thing is, in my CS classes apx 30\% were from India and 30\% from rest of Asia.
The remainder were mostly white Americans.
These ratios were pretty much consistent throughout pretty much the entire engineering school.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424819</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>sjdude</author>
	<datestamp>1245694560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><blockquote><div><p> If films etc weren't sold at a lower price in countries with lower wages then they would have higher prices in the countries where they are sold in order to cover the lost revenue.</p></div></blockquote><div><p>"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." -- Karl Marx</p></div></div></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If films etc were n't sold at a lower price in countries with lower wages then they would have higher prices in the countries where they are sold in order to cover the lost revenue .
" From each according to his ability , to each according to his need .
" -- Karl Marx</tokentext>
<sentencetext> If films etc weren't sold at a lower price in countries with lower wages then they would have higher prices in the countries where they are sold in order to cover the lost revenue.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
" -- Karl Marx
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418367</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418065</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245703200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You have just made me feel that am not alone in the dark who feels this way, thanks bro. I remember telling my dad why I don't want to join any of these companies with all this 'S'*** (some even include it in their names).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You have just made me feel that am not alone in the dark who feels this way , thanks bro .
I remember telling my dad why I do n't want to join any of these companies with all this 'S ' * * * ( some even include it in their names ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You have just made me feel that am not alone in the dark who feels this way, thanks bro.
I remember telling my dad why I don't want to join any of these companies with all this 'S'*** (some even include it in their names).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417533</id>
	<title>He has a bit of a point</title>
	<author>SuperKendall</author>
	<datestamp>1245612300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was a CS major.</p><p>One of the most practical courses I took was one where we did team programming projects, and had to work on a spec.  That was as close to real life programming as I ever got...</p><p>I don't think it should be a focus but a basic understanding of some process (any process as new processes are derived from elements of old ones) would go a long way to new grads fitting into IT work (which is where most people doing computer stuff in college end up).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was a CS major.One of the most practical courses I took was one where we did team programming projects , and had to work on a spec .
That was as close to real life programming as I ever got...I do n't think it should be a focus but a basic understanding of some process ( any process as new processes are derived from elements of old ones ) would go a long way to new grads fitting into IT work ( which is where most people doing computer stuff in college end up ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was a CS major.One of the most practical courses I took was one where we did team programming projects, and had to work on a spec.
That was as close to real life programming as I ever got...I don't think it should be a focus but a basic understanding of some process (any process as new processes are derived from elements of old ones) would go a long way to new grads fitting into IT work (which is where most people doing computer stuff in college end up).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28423323</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>sexconker</author>
	<datestamp>1245689460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh please, if slashdot obeyed my preferences, the stupid slider bar would be a box on the left, and my main page wouldn't have that box I made that says "Fuck this box" (it was the only way to get rid of all the other boxes - disable all but the custom one and put SOMETHING in it).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh please , if slashdot obeyed my preferences , the stupid slider bar would be a box on the left , and my main page would n't have that box I made that says " Fuck this box " ( it was the only way to get rid of all the other boxes - disable all but the custom one and put SOMETHING in it ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh please, if slashdot obeyed my preferences, the stupid slider bar would be a box on the left, and my main page wouldn't have that box I made that says "Fuck this box" (it was the only way to get rid of all the other boxes - disable all but the custom one and put SOMETHING in it).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418485</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28521227</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>CodeBuster</author>
	<datestamp>1246276380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What this guy doesn't answer is why is it that when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that's stateside?</p></div><p>I believe that I can answer that one for you; They cut and pasted or adapted sections of code found in unrelated projects or on the Internet, mostly without understanding what they were cutting and pasting, and then ran the debugger until the code satisfied <i> <b>exactly</b> </i> the test case that you specified and NO others (i.e. the code explodes of the input is not exactly as specified). In my experience, Indian outsourced programmers are very good at following <i> <b>precise</b> </i> directions, provided that they have seen the problem before and memorized the solution, but if they run into snags or must use a bit of creativity to adapt the solution then all bets are (mostly) off. Also, If you ask them to architect the solution rather than simply filling in the blanks then you are <b> <i>really</i> </b> asking for trouble.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What this guy does n't answer is why is it that when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs , short cuts , and shit that does n't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that 's stateside ? I believe that I can answer that one for you ; They cut and pasted or adapted sections of code found in unrelated projects or on the Internet , mostly without understanding what they were cutting and pasting , and then ran the debugger until the code satisfied exactly the test case that you specified and NO others ( i.e .
the code explodes of the input is not exactly as specified ) .
In my experience , Indian outsourced programmers are very good at following precise directions , provided that they have seen the problem before and memorized the solution , but if they run into snags or must use a bit of creativity to adapt the solution then all bets are ( mostly ) off .
Also , If you ask them to architect the solution rather than simply filling in the blanks then you are really asking for trouble .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What this guy doesn't answer is why is it that when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that's stateside?I believe that I can answer that one for you; They cut and pasted or adapted sections of code found in unrelated projects or on the Internet, mostly without understanding what they were cutting and pasting, and then ran the debugger until the code satisfied  exactly  the test case that you specified and NO others (i.e.
the code explodes of the input is not exactly as specified).
In my experience, Indian outsourced programmers are very good at following  precise  directions, provided that they have seen the problem before and memorized the solution, but if they run into snags or must use a bit of creativity to adapt the solution then all bets are (mostly) off.
Also, If you ask them to architect the solution rather than simply filling in the blanks then you are  really  asking for trouble.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420711</id>
	<title>HCL</title>
	<author>SCHecklerX</author>
	<datestamp>1245680580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>*HCL* is saying that US people are unemployable?  Let me tell you about my experience as the lead security analyst at a fortune 500 trying to transition some work to that company...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>* HCL * is saying that US people are unemployable ?
Let me tell you about my experience as the lead security analyst at a fortune 500 trying to transition some work to that company.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>*HCL* is saying that US people are unemployable?
Let me tell you about my experience as the lead security analyst at a fortune 500 trying to transition some work to that company...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28428665</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>ahabswhale</author>
	<datestamp>1245664320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>lol...your post is a bit naive.  Sure, there are cases where offshoring is used to produce a product at a lower price but most of it is to simply increase the profit of the company.  It is extremely rare for a company that suddenly starts offshoring their manufacturing to China to drop the price of their produce with all the money they saved on labor.  It just doesn't happen for the most part.  The only example I can think of where this discount is provided is with guitar manufacturing.  So a company like Breedlove has an American line and a Chinese line of guitars and the Chinese ones are less.  Even then it's hard to make a direct comparison though since the American ones are made with better quality woods, etc.  In any event, having played both, the American ones are clearly better and have a much better rep than their Chinese counterparts.  And I say that as a person who was praying the Chinese ones were just as good since the American ones are expensive ($2k+).</htmltext>
<tokenext>lol...your post is a bit naive .
Sure , there are cases where offshoring is used to produce a product at a lower price but most of it is to simply increase the profit of the company .
It is extremely rare for a company that suddenly starts offshoring their manufacturing to China to drop the price of their produce with all the money they saved on labor .
It just does n't happen for the most part .
The only example I can think of where this discount is provided is with guitar manufacturing .
So a company like Breedlove has an American line and a Chinese line of guitars and the Chinese ones are less .
Even then it 's hard to make a direct comparison though since the American ones are made with better quality woods , etc .
In any event , having played both , the American ones are clearly better and have a much better rep than their Chinese counterparts .
And I say that as a person who was praying the Chinese ones were just as good since the American ones are expensive ( $ 2k + ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>lol...your post is a bit naive.
Sure, there are cases where offshoring is used to produce a product at a lower price but most of it is to simply increase the profit of the company.
It is extremely rare for a company that suddenly starts offshoring their manufacturing to China to drop the price of their produce with all the money they saved on labor.
It just doesn't happen for the most part.
The only example I can think of where this discount is provided is with guitar manufacturing.
So a company like Breedlove has an American line and a Chinese line of guitars and the Chinese ones are less.
Even then it's hard to make a direct comparison though since the American ones are made with better quality woods, etc.
In any event, having played both, the American ones are clearly better and have a much better rep than their Chinese counterparts.
And I say that as a person who was praying the Chinese ones were just as good since the American ones are expensive ($2k+).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420289</id>
	<title>Re:Americans are unemployable...</title>
	<author>petrus4</author>
	<datestamp>1245678660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>when you pay them $15/hr and expect them to be good at what they do.</i></p><p>I suspect that you've just realised the main reason why outsourcing really exists.</p><p>Corporate bean counters aren't too intelligent.  They think they're really clever if they focus on hiring people from Third World countries for chips per hour, they can sidestep all those nasty old restrictions at home.  You know, the ones like a living wage, unionised labour, set working hours, and just having to treat your employees like human beings more or less in general.</p><p>What they don't realise though, is that people living in said Third World countries actually aren't stupid, despite American white supremacist myopia to the contrary.  As IBM impersonates Ganesha and gradually generates an affluent middle class in Bangalore, eventually labour unions, and labour laws, are going to start springing up there as well.  Indian society has been undergoing reform for a while now, and as the caste system is erroded to a progressively greater degree, Indians will start announcing that they no longer want to work in sweatshops either, and then what is a poor megacorp to do?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>when you pay them $ 15/hr and expect them to be good at what they do.I suspect that you 've just realised the main reason why outsourcing really exists.Corporate bean counters are n't too intelligent .
They think they 're really clever if they focus on hiring people from Third World countries for chips per hour , they can sidestep all those nasty old restrictions at home .
You know , the ones like a living wage , unionised labour , set working hours , and just having to treat your employees like human beings more or less in general.What they do n't realise though , is that people living in said Third World countries actually are n't stupid , despite American white supremacist myopia to the contrary .
As IBM impersonates Ganesha and gradually generates an affluent middle class in Bangalore , eventually labour unions , and labour laws , are going to start springing up there as well .
Indian society has been undergoing reform for a while now , and as the caste system is erroded to a progressively greater degree , Indians will start announcing that they no longer want to work in sweatshops either , and then what is a poor megacorp to do ?
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>when you pay them $15/hr and expect them to be good at what they do.I suspect that you've just realised the main reason why outsourcing really exists.Corporate bean counters aren't too intelligent.
They think they're really clever if they focus on hiring people from Third World countries for chips per hour, they can sidestep all those nasty old restrictions at home.
You know, the ones like a living wage, unionised labour, set working hours, and just having to treat your employees like human beings more or less in general.What they don't realise though, is that people living in said Third World countries actually aren't stupid, despite American white supremacist myopia to the contrary.
As IBM impersonates Ganesha and gradually generates an affluent middle class in Bangalore, eventually labour unions, and labour laws, are going to start springing up there as well.
Indian society has been undergoing reform for a while now, and as the caste system is erroded to a progressively greater degree, Indians will start announcing that they no longer want to work in sweatshops either, and then what is a poor megacorp to do?
;)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424907</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1245694860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Much of the differebnce is going to the top 1\% of the U.S. That's why CEO salaries continue to grow at unsustainable rates while other wages are stagnant.</p><p>If U.S. workers had the benefit of those prices, their cost of living would go way down and so they could work for lower wages and still live OK. Really, most in the U.S. would be better off outsourcing overpriced management and keeping the bulk of the employment on-shore.</p><p>The "strategy" of having the work done where labor is cheap for sale where the prices are high is unsustainable. Eventually it just impoverishes the population until nobody can afford the high prices.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Much of the differebnce is going to the top 1 \ % of the U.S. That 's why CEO salaries continue to grow at unsustainable rates while other wages are stagnant.If U.S. workers had the benefit of those prices , their cost of living would go way down and so they could work for lower wages and still live OK. Really , most in the U.S. would be better off outsourcing overpriced management and keeping the bulk of the employment on-shore.The " strategy " of having the work done where labor is cheap for sale where the prices are high is unsustainable .
Eventually it just impoverishes the population until nobody can afford the high prices .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Much of the differebnce is going to the top 1\% of the U.S. That's why CEO salaries continue to grow at unsustainable rates while other wages are stagnant.If U.S. workers had the benefit of those prices, their cost of living would go way down and so they could work for lower wages and still live OK. Really, most in the U.S. would be better off outsourcing overpriced management and keeping the bulk of the employment on-shore.The "strategy" of having the work done where labor is cheap for sale where the prices are high is unsustainable.
Eventually it just impoverishes the population until nobody can afford the high prices.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28423715</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>mikerjohnson</author>
	<datestamp>1245690720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I worked for HCL for a period of time and I can tell you that *most* (not all) of my peers that were located in India seem to have been taught not to think, but only to follow the script.  This falls in line perfectly with your regular expression example.  Most of them weren't interested in working on the process to make it more efficient - probably because this would decrease billable hours as you say.

I guarantee that the the outsourcing results in lost profits in the long run, but because HCL could supply the support (inferior) cheaper, I think it looks better on the balance sheet and to stock holders because IT support is not the core business and is therefore considered overhead.  Reducing the percentage of your budget on overhead looks great to analysts and they will never know how much profit was lost because of the switch because that info stays internal.  So on the outside, the company looks lean and mean - give the public what it wants.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I worked for HCL for a period of time and I can tell you that * most * ( not all ) of my peers that were located in India seem to have been taught not to think , but only to follow the script .
This falls in line perfectly with your regular expression example .
Most of them were n't interested in working on the process to make it more efficient - probably because this would decrease billable hours as you say .
I guarantee that the the outsourcing results in lost profits in the long run , but because HCL could supply the support ( inferior ) cheaper , I think it looks better on the balance sheet and to stock holders because IT support is not the core business and is therefore considered overhead .
Reducing the percentage of your budget on overhead looks great to analysts and they will never know how much profit was lost because of the switch because that info stays internal .
So on the outside , the company looks lean and mean - give the public what it wants .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I worked for HCL for a period of time and I can tell you that *most* (not all) of my peers that were located in India seem to have been taught not to think, but only to follow the script.
This falls in line perfectly with your regular expression example.
Most of them weren't interested in working on the process to make it more efficient - probably because this would decrease billable hours as you say.
I guarantee that the the outsourcing results in lost profits in the long run, but because HCL could supply the support (inferior) cheaper, I think it looks better on the balance sheet and to stock holders because IT support is not the core business and is therefore considered overhead.
Reducing the percentage of your budget on overhead looks great to analysts and they will never know how much profit was lost because of the switch because that info stays internal.
So on the outside, the company looks lean and mean - give the public what it wants.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28427019</id>
	<title>Re:Americans are unemployable...</title>
	<author>averner</author>
	<datestamp>1245702420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Indians will start announcing that they no longer want to work in sweatshops either, and then what is a poor megacorp to do?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></div><p>Outsource to Africa?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Indians will start announcing that they no longer want to work in sweatshops either , and then what is a poor megacorp to do ?
; ) Outsource to Africa ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Indians will start announcing that they no longer want to work in sweatshops either, and then what is a poor megacorp to do?
;)Outsource to Africa?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420289</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419679</id>
	<title>Re:3 war stories - equally amusing and frustrating</title>
	<author>smoker2</author>
	<datestamp>1245674280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Vineet Nayer is just peddling lies</p></div></blockquote><p>I, perhaps mistakenly, have always assumed that a large proportion of<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. posters are techs in one way or another. Yet you can pick any story, and find people who can't spell, can't parse a sentence and have poor comprehension, and yet they dive in to flame other posters because of their own poor understanding. They read the first few words and then fire off a reply taking no notice of the context, the tone, anything later in the post that explains the bit they didn't get. Whole pages are devoted to arguing over something nobody ever asserted in the first place. Ego is the issue, and you lot have it in spades. Combined with those other basic language issues and you have a recipe for going nowhere fast.<br> <br>The <a href="http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1276705&amp;cid=28418175" title="slashdot.org">guy</a> [slashdot.org] who posted the examples of things he was asking at interview, all basic things for anybody who has ever expressed an interest in coding, and yet candidates with masters degrees couldn't do it. And then you get the idiots on here who try to defend the masters degree holders, without even taking notice that he never specified he wanted masters holders, they just applied. I can't see how they had the balls to apply for a job without knowing simple code for string substitution, or simple sql statements, or apparently what a variable is. I second his opinion - what have they been doing for all that time at school ?<br> <br>1) If you had a string, and wanted to replace part of that string with another string, how would you do it?</p><blockquote><div><p> <tt>s/$string/$newstring</tt></p></div> </blockquote><p>

2) How would you add 5 to each element in an array of integers?</p><blockquote><div><p> <tt>foreach $element (@array) {$element = $element +5;}</tt></p></div> </blockquote><p>

3) How would you add 5 to a field of integers in an SQL table?<br>
Don't know. I'm not a dbase programmer, but there may well be a built in command for this. Otherwise I would read, increment and rewrite as above with the array.<br>
4) Write up any form of database "select" query. I don't expect it to parse, just have the basic pieces. Honestly, just a simple "Select field [, field2] from [table] where (conditions));" would suffice.</p><blockquote><div><p> <tt>SELECT $record FROM $table WHERE $fieldname LIKE 'idiot';</tt></p></div> </blockquote><p>
5) In your language of choice, take a variable containing the value 5 and construct a sentence that says "I have 5 children".</p><blockquote><div><p> <tt>#!/usr/bin/perl<br> <br>$variable="5";<br> <br>print "I have $variable children\n";</tt></p></div> </blockquote><p>I have no tertiary education, I drive a truck for a living. So again, explain what these people have been doing for the last 6 years ?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Vineet Nayer is just peddling liesI , perhaps mistakenly , have always assumed that a large proportion of / .
posters are techs in one way or another .
Yet you can pick any story , and find people who ca n't spell , ca n't parse a sentence and have poor comprehension , and yet they dive in to flame other posters because of their own poor understanding .
They read the first few words and then fire off a reply taking no notice of the context , the tone , anything later in the post that explains the bit they did n't get .
Whole pages are devoted to arguing over something nobody ever asserted in the first place .
Ego is the issue , and you lot have it in spades .
Combined with those other basic language issues and you have a recipe for going nowhere fast .
The guy [ slashdot.org ] who posted the examples of things he was asking at interview , all basic things for anybody who has ever expressed an interest in coding , and yet candidates with masters degrees could n't do it .
And then you get the idiots on here who try to defend the masters degree holders , without even taking notice that he never specified he wanted masters holders , they just applied .
I ca n't see how they had the balls to apply for a job without knowing simple code for string substitution , or simple sql statements , or apparently what a variable is .
I second his opinion - what have they been doing for all that time at school ?
1 ) If you had a string , and wanted to replace part of that string with another string , how would you do it ?
s/ $ string/ $ newstring 2 ) How would you add 5 to each element in an array of integers ?
foreach $ element ( @ array ) { $ element = $ element + 5 ; } 3 ) How would you add 5 to a field of integers in an SQL table ?
Do n't know .
I 'm not a dbase programmer , but there may well be a built in command for this .
Otherwise I would read , increment and rewrite as above with the array .
4 ) Write up any form of database " select " query .
I do n't expect it to parse , just have the basic pieces .
Honestly , just a simple " Select field [ , field2 ] from [ table ] where ( conditions ) ) ; " would suffice .
SELECT $ record FROM $ table WHERE $ fieldname LIKE 'idiot ' ; 5 ) In your language of choice , take a variable containing the value 5 and construct a sentence that says " I have 5 children " .
# ! /usr/bin/perl $ variable = " 5 " ; print " I have $ variable children \ n " ; I have no tertiary education , I drive a truck for a living .
So again , explain what these people have been doing for the last 6 years ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Vineet Nayer is just peddling liesI, perhaps mistakenly, have always assumed that a large proportion of /.
posters are techs in one way or another.
Yet you can pick any story, and find people who can't spell, can't parse a sentence and have poor comprehension, and yet they dive in to flame other posters because of their own poor understanding.
They read the first few words and then fire off a reply taking no notice of the context, the tone, anything later in the post that explains the bit they didn't get.
Whole pages are devoted to arguing over something nobody ever asserted in the first place.
Ego is the issue, and you lot have it in spades.
Combined with those other basic language issues and you have a recipe for going nowhere fast.
The guy [slashdot.org] who posted the examples of things he was asking at interview, all basic things for anybody who has ever expressed an interest in coding, and yet candidates with masters degrees couldn't do it.
And then you get the idiots on here who try to defend the masters degree holders, without even taking notice that he never specified he wanted masters holders, they just applied.
I can't see how they had the balls to apply for a job without knowing simple code for string substitution, or simple sql statements, or apparently what a variable is.
I second his opinion - what have they been doing for all that time at school ?
1) If you had a string, and wanted to replace part of that string with another string, how would you do it?
s/$string/$newstring 

2) How would you add 5 to each element in an array of integers?
foreach $element (@array) {$element = $element +5;} 

3) How would you add 5 to a field of integers in an SQL table?
Don't know.
I'm not a dbase programmer, but there may well be a built in command for this.
Otherwise I would read, increment and rewrite as above with the array.
4) Write up any form of database "select" query.
I don't expect it to parse, just have the basic pieces.
Honestly, just a simple "Select field [, field2] from [table] where (conditions));" would suffice.
SELECT $record FROM $table WHERE $fieldname LIKE 'idiot'; 
5) In your language of choice, take a variable containing the value 5 and construct a sentence that says "I have 5 children".
#!/usr/bin/perl $variable="5"; print "I have $variable children\n"; I have no tertiary education, I drive a truck for a living.
So again, explain what these people have been doing for the last 6 years ?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418341</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418099</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245703500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Being a coder from India, I can answer your question. The reason is plain and simple economics and greed. While Indian coders in general come cheap when compared to those in US companies wanna further reduce costs there are other factors.</p><p>I earn a lot more than my counterparts doing same job because I belong to a top engineering school and quality of work expected from me is different than several others. While my company is full of guys from lower level colleges where education situation is really bad. Companies hire these guys cause they come cheap (some earn even 1/4 of what I do). While guys from top colleges ask for more companies refrain from hiring these people and hire college grads from lower colleges who would work on minimum wage.</p><p>IT job is thus considered worst in most IIT's and most engineers end up doing MS/PHD or MBA's.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Being a coder from India , I can answer your question .
The reason is plain and simple economics and greed .
While Indian coders in general come cheap when compared to those in US companies wan na further reduce costs there are other factors.I earn a lot more than my counterparts doing same job because I belong to a top engineering school and quality of work expected from me is different than several others .
While my company is full of guys from lower level colleges where education situation is really bad .
Companies hire these guys cause they come cheap ( some earn even 1/4 of what I do ) .
While guys from top colleges ask for more companies refrain from hiring these people and hire college grads from lower colleges who would work on minimum wage.IT job is thus considered worst in most IIT 's and most engineers end up doing MS/PHD or MBA 's .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Being a coder from India, I can answer your question.
The reason is plain and simple economics and greed.
While Indian coders in general come cheap when compared to those in US companies wanna further reduce costs there are other factors.I earn a lot more than my counterparts doing same job because I belong to a top engineering school and quality of work expected from me is different than several others.
While my company is full of guys from lower level colleges where education situation is really bad.
Companies hire these guys cause they come cheap (some earn even 1/4 of what I do).
While guys from top colleges ask for more companies refrain from hiring these people and hire college grads from lower colleges who would work on minimum wage.IT job is thus considered worst in most IIT's and most engineers end up doing MS/PHD or MBA's.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418071</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245703320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The reason the typical Dell computer costs $400 is because they have forced parts manufacturers to produce stuff to their specifications and not the other way around.</p><p>The reason that the support that comes with a Dell computer costs roughly $0 is because it is (surprise) worth roughly $0.</p><p>The masses have spoken, but who gives a shit? The masses are dumb.  Why should foreign trade policy be based on what the infamously short sighted "Average" American wants?  <strong>That's dumb</strong> </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The reason the typical Dell computer costs $ 400 is because they have forced parts manufacturers to produce stuff to their specifications and not the other way around.The reason that the support that comes with a Dell computer costs roughly $ 0 is because it is ( surprise ) worth roughly $ 0.The masses have spoken , but who gives a shit ?
The masses are dumb .
Why should foreign trade policy be based on what the infamously short sighted " Average " American wants ?
That 's dumb</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The reason the typical Dell computer costs $400 is because they have forced parts manufacturers to produce stuff to their specifications and not the other way around.The reason that the support that comes with a Dell computer costs roughly $0 is because it is (surprise) worth roughly $0.The masses have spoken, but who gives a shit?
The masses are dumb.
Why should foreign trade policy be based on what the infamously short sighted "Average" American wants?
That's dumb </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419935</id>
	<title>tech grads?</title>
	<author>speedtux</author>
	<datestamp>1245676260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What exactly is a "tech grad"?  A student with a degree in computer science? Is a university computer science education now supposed to be job training for the tech industry?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What exactly is a " tech grad " ?
A student with a degree in computer science ?
Is a university computer science education now supposed to be job training for the tech industry ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What exactly is a "tech grad"?
A student with a degree in computer science?
Is a university computer science education now supposed to be job training for the tech industry?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419465</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>Jack9</author>
	<datestamp>1245672600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Out of the 100 or so employees from our Indian contract houses, we made offers to 2 of the employees and cancelled the contracts due to negligence. One declined and the other has been a very smart, pragmatic, coder to this day. However, people from other companies have reported much smaller ratios of decent/incompetent out of India. YMMV.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Out of the 100 or so employees from our Indian contract houses , we made offers to 2 of the employees and cancelled the contracts due to negligence .
One declined and the other has been a very smart , pragmatic , coder to this day .
However , people from other companies have reported much smaller ratios of decent/incompetent out of India .
YMMV .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Out of the 100 or so employees from our Indian contract houses, we made offers to 2 of the employees and cancelled the contracts due to negligence.
One declined and the other has been a very smart, pragmatic, coder to this day.
However, people from other companies have reported much smaller ratios of decent/incompetent out of India.
YMMV.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418337</id>
	<title>UK perspective</title>
	<author>amb5l</author>
	<datestamp>1245662640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A UK perspective: I believe the quality of engineering graduates has declined steadily since the early 90s. It appears that higher education here is promoting knowledge without understanding, so you get guys that have passed exams but haven't a clue.</p><p>Obligatory anecdote: MSc (MSEE) qualified employee comes to me saying the main voltage rail is measuring too low on a board he is playing with. I think "it's drawing too much current, some chip is getting hot...." but when I question him about his theories, current does not get a mention. I become concerned, and - to cut a long story short - begin to wander if he understands electricity at all. So, I hold up a piece of wire and say "prove to me, without using a continuity checking meter, that this works". Employee goes off for 5 minutes, and returns with a request to use an oscilloscope. I inform him that Yes, he can, and he can use the refridgerator if he wants, but no meters are allowed. Another 40 minutes go by. He admits defeat. I ring my wife, who studied French and Italian, and who teaches younger kids, and ask the same question. She says some sensible stuff about batteries, light bulbs etc. Employee considers this and laughs - he hadn't thought of that.</p><p>This problem may be down to a reduction in the pursuit of electronics and programming as hobbies (when I got started, if you wanted to play a game on your computer you often had to write the game!). I really don't know. But it worries me. There is also much more of a tendancy now to treat work (in engineering) as a necessary evil rather than with enthusiasm. My younger engineers seem to be more pessimistic than I remember being, and most are doing nothing to plan for the future.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A UK perspective : I believe the quality of engineering graduates has declined steadily since the early 90s .
It appears that higher education here is promoting knowledge without understanding , so you get guys that have passed exams but have n't a clue.Obligatory anecdote : MSc ( MSEE ) qualified employee comes to me saying the main voltage rail is measuring too low on a board he is playing with .
I think " it 's drawing too much current , some chip is getting hot.... " but when I question him about his theories , current does not get a mention .
I become concerned , and - to cut a long story short - begin to wander if he understands electricity at all .
So , I hold up a piece of wire and say " prove to me , without using a continuity checking meter , that this works " .
Employee goes off for 5 minutes , and returns with a request to use an oscilloscope .
I inform him that Yes , he can , and he can use the refridgerator if he wants , but no meters are allowed .
Another 40 minutes go by .
He admits defeat .
I ring my wife , who studied French and Italian , and who teaches younger kids , and ask the same question .
She says some sensible stuff about batteries , light bulbs etc .
Employee considers this and laughs - he had n't thought of that.This problem may be down to a reduction in the pursuit of electronics and programming as hobbies ( when I got started , if you wanted to play a game on your computer you often had to write the game ! ) .
I really do n't know .
But it worries me .
There is also much more of a tendancy now to treat work ( in engineering ) as a necessary evil rather than with enthusiasm .
My younger engineers seem to be more pessimistic than I remember being , and most are doing nothing to plan for the future .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A UK perspective: I believe the quality of engineering graduates has declined steadily since the early 90s.
It appears that higher education here is promoting knowledge without understanding, so you get guys that have passed exams but haven't a clue.Obligatory anecdote: MSc (MSEE) qualified employee comes to me saying the main voltage rail is measuring too low on a board he is playing with.
I think "it's drawing too much current, some chip is getting hot...." but when I question him about his theories, current does not get a mention.
I become concerned, and - to cut a long story short - begin to wander if he understands electricity at all.
So, I hold up a piece of wire and say "prove to me, without using a continuity checking meter, that this works".
Employee goes off for 5 minutes, and returns with a request to use an oscilloscope.
I inform him that Yes, he can, and he can use the refridgerator if he wants, but no meters are allowed.
Another 40 minutes go by.
He admits defeat.
I ring my wife, who studied French and Italian, and who teaches younger kids, and ask the same question.
She says some sensible stuff about batteries, light bulbs etc.
Employee considers this and laughs - he hadn't thought of that.This problem may be down to a reduction in the pursuit of electronics and programming as hobbies (when I got started, if you wanted to play a game on your computer you often had to write the game!).
I really don't know.
But it worries me.
There is also much more of a tendancy now to treat work (in engineering) as a necessary evil rather than with enthusiasm.
My younger engineers seem to be more pessimistic than I remember being, and most are doing nothing to plan for the future.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418533</id>
	<title>Re:#1:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245664500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Honestly, man, as a software engineer myself, the main complaints are the quality of code coming out of India. I can compete with anybody. But my life gets fucking difficult when I have to debug this shit they produce. Sure, there must be good computer science graduates in India. But I am rather certain most of those graduates are not staying in India. The kind of code this CEO's company produces ends up more costly to their customers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Honestly , man , as a software engineer myself , the main complaints are the quality of code coming out of India .
I can compete with anybody .
But my life gets fucking difficult when I have to debug this shit they produce .
Sure , there must be good computer science graduates in India .
But I am rather certain most of those graduates are not staying in India .
The kind of code this CEO 's company produces ends up more costly to their customers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Honestly, man, as a software engineer myself, the main complaints are the quality of code coming out of India.
I can compete with anybody.
But my life gets fucking difficult when I have to debug this shit they produce.
Sure, there must be good computer science graduates in India.
But I am rather certain most of those graduates are not staying in India.
The kind of code this CEO's company produces ends up more costly to their customers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417615</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419611</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>ActusReus</author>
	<datestamp>1245673620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Uhh, let me see if I follow this dialogue...</p><p>

ORIGINAL STORY:</p><blockquote><div><p>Americans are unemployable compared to Indians.</p></div></blockquote><p>
BHEER:</p><blockquote><div><p>Sounds about right...</p></div></blockquote><p>
RANDOM COMMENT #41532:</p><blockquote><div><p>That hasn't been my experience.  I have better results hiring Chinese or Europeans.</p></div></blockquote><p>
BHEER:</p><blockquote><div><p>Hey, THAT'S racist!!!</p></div></blockquote><p>
KNEE-JERK IDIOT SLASHDOTTERS:</p><blockquote><div><p>+1 Insightful</p></div></blockquote></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Uhh , let me see if I follow this dialogue.. . ORIGINAL STORY : Americans are unemployable compared to Indians .
BHEER : Sounds about right.. . RANDOM COMMENT # 41532 : That has n't been my experience .
I have better results hiring Chinese or Europeans .
BHEER : Hey , THAT 'S racist ! ! !
KNEE-JERK IDIOT SLASHDOTTERS : + 1 Insightful</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Uhh, let me see if I follow this dialogue...

ORIGINAL STORY:Americans are unemployable compared to Indians.
BHEER:Sounds about right...
RANDOM COMMENT #41532:That hasn't been my experience.
I have better results hiring Chinese or Europeans.
BHEER:Hey, THAT'S racist!!!
KNEE-JERK IDIOT SLASHDOTTERS:+1 Insightful
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418847</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418283</id>
	<title>Re:India: The skrypt kiddies of programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245662160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I suspect that all the GOOD INDIAN PROGRAMMERS CAME TO AMERICA TO MAKE BETTER MONEY.</p></div><p>You've pretty much nailed it, and it doesn't just apply to Indian programmers.</p><p>Why get paid chump change (even if it's a lot by local standards) when you can go right to the source of the cash and earn the same rates as people do there? So long as you're good enough...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I suspect that all the GOOD INDIAN PROGRAMMERS CAME TO AMERICA TO MAKE BETTER MONEY.You 've pretty much nailed it , and it does n't just apply to Indian programmers.Why get paid chump change ( even if it 's a lot by local standards ) when you can go right to the source of the cash and earn the same rates as people do there ?
So long as you 're good enough.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I suspect that all the GOOD INDIAN PROGRAMMERS CAME TO AMERICA TO MAKE BETTER MONEY.You've pretty much nailed it, and it doesn't just apply to Indian programmers.Why get paid chump change (even if it's a lot by local standards) when you can go right to the source of the cash and earn the same rates as people do there?
So long as you're good enough...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417683</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28429935</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245668880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't you guys get it? Programming is no longer a high tech job if a third world high school graduate can do it.<br>You cannot rely on an easy programming job to get  a decent life any more. You either move up on the food chain by sharpening up<br>your skill or get devoured by massive 3rd world cheap labor.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't you guys get it ?
Programming is no longer a high tech job if a third world high school graduate can do it.You can not rely on an easy programming job to get a decent life any more .
You either move up on the food chain by sharpening upyour skill or get devoured by massive 3rd world cheap labor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't you guys get it?
Programming is no longer a high tech job if a third world high school graduate can do it.You cannot rely on an easy programming job to get  a decent life any more.
You either move up on the food chain by sharpening upyour skill or get devoured by massive 3rd world cheap labor.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28429685</id>
	<title>Re:Unemployable?</title>
	<author>Prof.Phreak</author>
	<datestamp>1245667860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>...hand a CEO a floor buffer and watch him fumble about with it.</i></p><p>I once watched the boss of a small corp (~50 employees) do just that. Them buffers sure can swing-and-slam you into a wall if you dunno how to hold it right.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...hand a CEO a floor buffer and watch him fumble about with it.I once watched the boss of a small corp ( ~ 50 employees ) do just that .
Them buffers sure can swing-and-slam you into a wall if you dunno how to hold it right .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...hand a CEO a floor buffer and watch him fumble about with it.I once watched the boss of a small corp (~50 employees) do just that.
Them buffers sure can swing-and-slam you into a wall if you dunno how to hold it right.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417645</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421063</id>
	<title>India outsourcing</title>
	<author>Vamman</author>
	<datestamp>1245681960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Looks like plenty of<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.'ers have beat me to posting on this hot button topic but I figure I will throw my two cents in anyways. Ironically, I tend to agree that US/Canada IT graduates are NOT ready for the working world and either are most graduates for that matter. Most freshly schooled folks don't usually have the opportunity to home their skills if they don't put serious initiative into learning the glory details of tech and development which does not usually include any sunshine and lollypops. However, to argue to that India's graduates with limited access to subpar technology and weaker institutional standards are better than US graduates is a total farce. The truth is that the employee from India has likely been "thrown" into more situations than the US graduate before, during, and after graduation and therefore are more likely come up with some type of hackjob response faster than a fresh US grad. Most Indian graduates are working during their academic career and freelancing at ridiculously cheap rates to gain experience in the real world with real North American clients. So when time comes for them to enter the job market they already have experience working professionally that US graduates don't.

I work both professionally and in academia and most of the time the people I meet with the same degree as me (either BSc. or MSc.) makes me ashamed that they have the same degree as me. It is a well known fact that its not the degree that makes the professional but its how they use it. I don't have a computer science degree, infact I have an Environment Sciences MSc. and a BSc. in Biology. However, I can score an IT position faster then someone with a PhD in computer sciences because I have real life experience working with clients, government, and organizations which are dependent on qualified developers and techs. When I am not working in IT I follow all of the latest technologies and languages and work well beyond that typical 40 hours a week in open source and online development projects (as a hobby!). If you are not totally immersed in your field you are only there for the pay cheque. Most grads I know were and are still only interested in the bottom line and unfortunately for those people their dream job just doesn't exist right now.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Looks like plenty of / .
'ers have beat me to posting on this hot button topic but I figure I will throw my two cents in anyways .
Ironically , I tend to agree that US/Canada IT graduates are NOT ready for the working world and either are most graduates for that matter .
Most freshly schooled folks do n't usually have the opportunity to home their skills if they do n't put serious initiative into learning the glory details of tech and development which does not usually include any sunshine and lollypops .
However , to argue to that India 's graduates with limited access to subpar technology and weaker institutional standards are better than US graduates is a total farce .
The truth is that the employee from India has likely been " thrown " into more situations than the US graduate before , during , and after graduation and therefore are more likely come up with some type of hackjob response faster than a fresh US grad .
Most Indian graduates are working during their academic career and freelancing at ridiculously cheap rates to gain experience in the real world with real North American clients .
So when time comes for them to enter the job market they already have experience working professionally that US graduates do n't .
I work both professionally and in academia and most of the time the people I meet with the same degree as me ( either BSc .
or MSc .
) makes me ashamed that they have the same degree as me .
It is a well known fact that its not the degree that makes the professional but its how they use it .
I do n't have a computer science degree , infact I have an Environment Sciences MSc .
and a BSc .
in Biology .
However , I can score an IT position faster then someone with a PhD in computer sciences because I have real life experience working with clients , government , and organizations which are dependent on qualified developers and techs .
When I am not working in IT I follow all of the latest technologies and languages and work well beyond that typical 40 hours a week in open source and online development projects ( as a hobby ! ) .
If you are not totally immersed in your field you are only there for the pay cheque .
Most grads I know were and are still only interested in the bottom line and unfortunately for those people their dream job just does n't exist right now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Looks like plenty of /.
'ers have beat me to posting on this hot button topic but I figure I will throw my two cents in anyways.
Ironically, I tend to agree that US/Canada IT graduates are NOT ready for the working world and either are most graduates for that matter.
Most freshly schooled folks don't usually have the opportunity to home their skills if they don't put serious initiative into learning the glory details of tech and development which does not usually include any sunshine and lollypops.
However, to argue to that India's graduates with limited access to subpar technology and weaker institutional standards are better than US graduates is a total farce.
The truth is that the employee from India has likely been "thrown" into more situations than the US graduate before, during, and after graduation and therefore are more likely come up with some type of hackjob response faster than a fresh US grad.
Most Indian graduates are working during their academic career and freelancing at ridiculously cheap rates to gain experience in the real world with real North American clients.
So when time comes for them to enter the job market they already have experience working professionally that US graduates don't.
I work both professionally and in academia and most of the time the people I meet with the same degree as me (either BSc.
or MSc.
) makes me ashamed that they have the same degree as me.
It is a well known fact that its not the degree that makes the professional but its how they use it.
I don't have a computer science degree, infact I have an Environment Sciences MSc.
and a BSc.
in Biology.
However, I can score an IT position faster then someone with a PhD in computer sciences because I have real life experience working with clients, government, and organizations which are dependent on qualified developers and techs.
When I am not working in IT I follow all of the latest technologies and languages and work well beyond that typical 40 hours a week in open source and online development projects (as a hobby!).
If you are not totally immersed in your field you are only there for the pay cheque.
Most grads I know were and are still only interested in the bottom line and unfortunately for those people their dream job just doesn't exist right now.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420745</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Sancho</author>
	<datestamp>1245680760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Weird--I absolutely love it.</p><p>The two main features I love are the shortcut keys to move between comments and the ability to collapse sub-threads that are uninteresting, yet modded high enough to escape my viewing threshold.</p><p>For example, your post has +5:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; 40\% Insightful<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; 40\% Interesting<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; 20\% Informative</p><p>Yet being completely off-topic, I can see how one would want to skip it and all of the comments in the sub-thread.  Discussion2 makes that pretty trivial.</p><p>Most of the time, I agree that adding javascript is highly superfluous to a website, but in this case, it really does add functionality.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Weird--I absolutely love it.The two main features I love are the shortcut keys to move between comments and the ability to collapse sub-threads that are uninteresting , yet modded high enough to escape my viewing threshold.For example , your post has + 5 :     40 \ % Insightful     40 \ % Interesting     20 \ % InformativeYet being completely off-topic , I can see how one would want to skip it and all of the comments in the sub-thread .
Discussion2 makes that pretty trivial.Most of the time , I agree that adding javascript is highly superfluous to a website , but in this case , it really does add functionality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Weird--I absolutely love it.The two main features I love are the shortcut keys to move between comments and the ability to collapse sub-threads that are uninteresting, yet modded high enough to escape my viewing threshold.For example, your post has +5:
    40\% Insightful
    40\% Interesting
    20\% InformativeYet being completely off-topic, I can see how one would want to skip it and all of the comments in the sub-thread.
Discussion2 makes that pretty trivial.Most of the time, I agree that adding javascript is highly superfluous to a website, but in this case, it really does add functionality.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420393</id>
	<title>Re:#1:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245679080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm a hungarian sw developer with no formal qualifications but with 9+ yrs of professional experience, right now working as a freelance consultant advising various investment banking clients on all things J2EE in London. I've been mentoring for 5+ years and have twice pushed back on offers of becoming a traveling architect for clients (as a permanent employee).</p><p>No-one ever (and I do mean ever) asked for my qualifications after my first job as a developer at a startup during the golden years.</p><p>I'm living exactly what you're describing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a hungarian sw developer with no formal qualifications but with 9 + yrs of professional experience , right now working as a freelance consultant advising various investment banking clients on all things J2EE in London .
I 've been mentoring for 5 + years and have twice pushed back on offers of becoming a traveling architect for clients ( as a permanent employee ) .No-one ever ( and I do mean ever ) asked for my qualifications after my first job as a developer at a startup during the golden years.I 'm living exactly what you 're describing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a hungarian sw developer with no formal qualifications but with 9+ yrs of professional experience, right now working as a freelance consultant advising various investment banking clients on all things J2EE in London.
I've been mentoring for 5+ years and have twice pushed back on offers of becoming a traveling architect for clients (as a permanent employee).No-one ever (and I do mean ever) asked for my qualifications after my first job as a developer at a startup during the golden years.I'm living exactly what you're describing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417615</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422939</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245688140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Even since the crisis, H1-Bs have become a popular whipping boy. Anytime a company lays off (read: Microsoft), the first question asked is how many H1-Bs were laid off. So I did some quick numbers there:</p><p>Number of people currently unemployed: 6.69 million<br>Number of people losing jobs every month: ~600,000<br>Number of H1-Bs visas given out annually: 65,000</p><p>They are nothing but a minor fraction, yet the reactions they stir up is unfuckingbelievable. But I guess they make an easy target, political and otherwise, to point fingers at, a sort of panacea that once got rid of, will fix all your problems.</p><p>Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/19/business/economy/19econ.html?hpw</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Even since the crisis , H1-Bs have become a popular whipping boy .
Anytime a company lays off ( read : Microsoft ) , the first question asked is how many H1-Bs were laid off .
So I did some quick numbers there : Number of people currently unemployed : 6.69 millionNumber of people losing jobs every month : ~ 600,000Number of H1-Bs visas given out annually : 65,000They are nothing but a minor fraction , yet the reactions they stir up is unfuckingbelievable .
But I guess they make an easy target , political and otherwise , to point fingers at , a sort of panacea that once got rid of , will fix all your problems.Source : http : //www.nytimes.com/2009/06/19/business/economy/19econ.html ? hpw</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even since the crisis, H1-Bs have become a popular whipping boy.
Anytime a company lays off (read: Microsoft), the first question asked is how many H1-Bs were laid off.
So I did some quick numbers there:Number of people currently unemployed: 6.69 millionNumber of people losing jobs every month: ~600,000Number of H1-Bs visas given out annually: 65,000They are nothing but a minor fraction, yet the reactions they stir up is unfuckingbelievable.
But I guess they make an easy target, political and otherwise, to point fingers at, a sort of panacea that once got rid of, will fix all your problems.Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/19/business/economy/19econ.html?hpw</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418517</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419179</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Jah-Wren Ryel</author>
	<datestamp>1245670080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I would've thought Slashdot of all places wouldn't succumb to the gleeful bloat which has rendered spectacular advances in hardware almost irrelevant to the end user experience.</p></div><p>Indeed, this shit does not bode well for the future of slashdot.  These sorts of counter-productive and superfluous web-site "upgrades" are the kind of thing that often precedes the death of a company.  It's like the brains have already left the building and the company is just left running on empty until it collapses under the weight of the remaining stupidity.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would 've thought Slashdot of all places would n't succumb to the gleeful bloat which has rendered spectacular advances in hardware almost irrelevant to the end user experience.Indeed , this shit does not bode well for the future of slashdot .
These sorts of counter-productive and superfluous web-site " upgrades " are the kind of thing that often precedes the death of a company .
It 's like the brains have already left the building and the company is just left running on empty until it collapses under the weight of the remaining stupidity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would've thought Slashdot of all places wouldn't succumb to the gleeful bloat which has rendered spectacular advances in hardware almost irrelevant to the end user experience.Indeed, this shit does not bode well for the future of slashdot.
These sorts of counter-productive and superfluous web-site "upgrades" are the kind of thing that often precedes the death of a company.
It's like the brains have already left the building and the company is just left running on empty until it collapses under the weight of the remaining stupidity.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418587</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422491</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>booyabazooka</author>
	<datestamp>1245686580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Absolutely - use noscript, and adblock any offending images.</p><p>I have noticed virtually no change.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Absolutely - use noscript , and adblock any offending images.I have noticed virtually no change .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Absolutely - use noscript, and adblock any offending images.I have noticed virtually no change.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245701820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is there any way to turn off all this superfluous and stupid javascript and AJAX shit that is totally ruining slashdot these days? I know this is OT, but there's nowhere else to ask. Man, I pine for the days when the pages loaded fast, rendered properly, payed attention my prefs, and didn't have !stupid! slider widgets and ridiculous color-scale search things.</p><p>Slashdot is nearly unusable anymore,</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is there any way to turn off all this superfluous and stupid javascript and AJAX shit that is totally ruining slashdot these days ?
I know this is OT , but there 's nowhere else to ask .
Man , I pine for the days when the pages loaded fast , rendered properly , payed attention my prefs , and did n't have ! stupid !
slider widgets and ridiculous color-scale search things.Slashdot is nearly unusable anymore,</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is there any way to turn off all this superfluous and stupid javascript and AJAX shit that is totally ruining slashdot these days?
I know this is OT, but there's nowhere else to ask.
Man, I pine for the days when the pages loaded fast, rendered properly, payed attention my prefs, and didn't have !stupid!
slider widgets and ridiculous color-scale search things.Slashdot is nearly unusable anymore,</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417387</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419843</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245675540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The IITs epitomize drones. These kids sweat their heart out to get in. Its rote memorisation. Try googling around for  "IIT, Kota, coaching classes". These kids mug-up everything. Creativity for problem solving doesn't have any space anymore. It's like engineering school projects in most places in India. Rigging up a scooter with solar cells, solar pump, solar car or whatever, I mean if they can buy the parts and solder it on, it's a project. Its pathetic. Then you see them in the newspaper "proud" about their "invention". It's important to make out the difference between a resistor and a rat's ass, though both resist current in their own unique ways.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The IITs epitomize drones .
These kids sweat their heart out to get in .
Its rote memorisation .
Try googling around for " IIT , Kota , coaching classes " .
These kids mug-up everything .
Creativity for problem solving does n't have any space anymore .
It 's like engineering school projects in most places in India .
Rigging up a scooter with solar cells , solar pump , solar car or whatever , I mean if they can buy the parts and solder it on , it 's a project .
Its pathetic .
Then you see them in the newspaper " proud " about their " invention " .
It 's important to make out the difference between a resistor and a rat 's ass , though both resist current in their own unique ways .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The IITs epitomize drones.
These kids sweat their heart out to get in.
Its rote memorisation.
Try googling around for  "IIT, Kota, coaching classes".
These kids mug-up everything.
Creativity for problem solving doesn't have any space anymore.
It's like engineering school projects in most places in India.
Rigging up a scooter with solar cells, solar pump, solar car or whatever, I mean if they can buy the parts and solder it on, it's a project.
Its pathetic.
Then you see them in the newspaper "proud" about their "invention".
It's important to make out the difference between a resistor and a rat's ass, though both resist current in their own unique ways.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419713</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245674520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Firstly these are service companies. they bill clients by the hour. Which then brings us to their processes and employees.<br>Innovation and smart working is discouraged, and the training given is "how to bill maximum hours" and "how to fool the client into believing you are working".</p></div></blockquote><p>
&nbsp; </p><p>Shoot, American workers require <em>years of experience</em> to effectively develop those job skills!</p><p>
&nbsp; </p><p>No wonder those Indian coders are so awesome, they learn them before they even start their first project!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Firstly these are service companies .
they bill clients by the hour .
Which then brings us to their processes and employees.Innovation and smart working is discouraged , and the training given is " how to bill maximum hours " and " how to fool the client into believing you are working " .
  Shoot , American workers require years of experience to effectively develop those job skills !
  No wonder those Indian coders are so awesome , they learn them before they even start their first project !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Firstly these are service companies.
they bill clients by the hour.
Which then brings us to their processes and employees.Innovation and smart working is discouraged, and the training given is "how to bill maximum hours" and "how to fool the client into believing you are working".
  Shoot, American workers require years of experience to effectively develop those job skills!
  No wonder those Indian coders are so awesome, they learn them before they even start their first project!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420699</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245680520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Their previous employer William Shockley (co-inventor of the transistor) was an outspoken eugenicist.<br>I'm sure diversity was an important part in his hiring practices.</p><p>Robert Noyce could trace his lineage to the Mayflower.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Their previous employer William Shockley ( co-inventor of the transistor ) was an outspoken eugenicist.I 'm sure diversity was an important part in his hiring practices.Robert Noyce could trace his lineage to the Mayflower .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Their previous employer William Shockley (co-inventor of the transistor) was an outspoken eugenicist.I'm sure diversity was an important part in his hiring practices.Robert Noyce could trace his lineage to the Mayflower.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418517</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418111</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>blahplusplus</author>
	<datestamp>1245703680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"The masses have spoken: saving a few bucks is worth it. If you don't like it--vote with your dollars and encourage your friends and family to do the same"</p><p>The problem is the average human being has the cognitive power of a lemon, most people are creatures of habit and could care less.  People don't change unless they can feel the effects of what they are doing.</p><p>You can see this when they do choice experiments on how people choose:  People who use credit cards spend more then those who don't because it doesn't activate the part of the brain associated with pain.  It also explains why americans are up to their eyeballs in debt.</p><p>You should all check this video out:</p><p>Inside my mind</p><p><a href="http://fora.tv/2009/02/19/Jonah\_Lehrer\_Inside\_My\_Mind" title="fora.tv">http://fora.tv/2009/02/19/Jonah\_Lehrer\_Inside\_My\_Mind</a> [fora.tv]</p><p>"Whether you agree with the outcome or not, foreign labor has helped to reduce the price of many of the goods and services that westerners rely on every day"</p><p>But this comes at the cost of jobs, the idea that the free market will pick up the slack is a lot idealogical bullshit.  The early United states used protectionism to build it's economy when britains manufaturing was better then theirs, they protected domestic industries so they would not be subject to foreign interests, while the free trading south bought foreign cheap goods and used slaves, guess who won that one?  The protectionists.</p><p>The free traders need to bone up on their history.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" The masses have spoken : saving a few bucks is worth it .
If you do n't like it--vote with your dollars and encourage your friends and family to do the same " The problem is the average human being has the cognitive power of a lemon , most people are creatures of habit and could care less .
People do n't change unless they can feel the effects of what they are doing.You can see this when they do choice experiments on how people choose : People who use credit cards spend more then those who do n't because it does n't activate the part of the brain associated with pain .
It also explains why americans are up to their eyeballs in debt.You should all check this video out : Inside my mindhttp : //fora.tv/2009/02/19/Jonah \ _Lehrer \ _Inside \ _My \ _Mind [ fora.tv ] " Whether you agree with the outcome or not , foreign labor has helped to reduce the price of many of the goods and services that westerners rely on every day " But this comes at the cost of jobs , the idea that the free market will pick up the slack is a lot idealogical bullshit .
The early United states used protectionism to build it 's economy when britains manufaturing was better then theirs , they protected domestic industries so they would not be subject to foreign interests , while the free trading south bought foreign cheap goods and used slaves , guess who won that one ?
The protectionists.The free traders need to bone up on their history .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"The masses have spoken: saving a few bucks is worth it.
If you don't like it--vote with your dollars and encourage your friends and family to do the same"The problem is the average human being has the cognitive power of a lemon, most people are creatures of habit and could care less.
People don't change unless they can feel the effects of what they are doing.You can see this when they do choice experiments on how people choose:  People who use credit cards spend more then those who don't because it doesn't activate the part of the brain associated with pain.
It also explains why americans are up to their eyeballs in debt.You should all check this video out:Inside my mindhttp://fora.tv/2009/02/19/Jonah\_Lehrer\_Inside\_My\_Mind [fora.tv]"Whether you agree with the outcome or not, foreign labor has helped to reduce the price of many of the goods and services that westerners rely on every day"But this comes at the cost of jobs, the idea that the free market will pick up the slack is a lot idealogical bullshit.
The early United states used protectionism to build it's economy when britains manufaturing was better then theirs, they protected domestic industries so they would not be subject to foreign interests, while the free trading south bought foreign cheap goods and used slaves, guess who won that one?
The protectionists.The free traders need to bone up on their history.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28520417</id>
	<title>Re:I'll guess I'll complain on Slashdot again</title>
	<author>naoursla</author>
	<datestamp>1246272120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Go join the local Chamber of Commerce. Attend networking meetings and find a business that needs software. Offer to write it for them in exchange for money. It may take time to find the first client and you may need to seriously undercut the prices on potential competitors, but I've seen it done before.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Go join the local Chamber of Commerce .
Attend networking meetings and find a business that needs software .
Offer to write it for them in exchange for money .
It may take time to find the first client and you may need to seriously undercut the prices on potential competitors , but I 've seen it done before .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Go join the local Chamber of Commerce.
Attend networking meetings and find a business that needs software.
Offer to write it for them in exchange for money.
It may take time to find the first client and you may need to seriously undercut the prices on potential competitors, but I've seen it done before.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418351</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418797</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>CAIMLAS</author>
	<datestamp>1245666840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wow, so chock full of errors in assumption I don't even know where to begin.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>The reason your typical Dell computer costs $400 is because they can ship part of the costs of support out to India.</p></div><p>Wrong. The only thing they <i>can't</i> effectively outsource to India is support (they tried, it didn't work). But everything else is made by the lowest bidder, leaving only the "support" jobs to Americans. What was that idea Ford had which made him massively successful? Oh yeah, he made is so his products were cheap enough for his factory employees to buy. Only problem is that we forgot the second half of that statement: we're just making them cheap, now, and the "company employees" aren't making much at all (because all the high-pay jobs are no longer: they're being done at essentially-flat rates overseas.)</p><p><div class="quote"><p>The same is true of big-box retailers like Walmart selling t-shirts and teapots cranked out in Chinese, Indian, and Indonesian factories for substantially less than local boutiques like American Apparel that sell US-made goods. Part of what you're paying for is branding, distribution chain inefficiency, fashion, etc. but it's important not to discount the labor cost--no matter how small--because that's all part of the race to the bottom.</p></div><p>Wrong. Chinese Walmart shit is cheaper because:<br>a) it's (often) poorly made, with poor QC.<br>b) economy of scale. Walmart buys a LOT of stuff, much more than anyone else can afford, and can therefore<br>c) You honestly think that it might be cheaper to make - and subsequently ship - a t-shirt from China than it would be to make it locally (within say, 500 miles)? Considering the majority of a product's cost (including food) is in transportation expenses, that's highly, highly unlikely.</p><p>Now, if there is no -real- distinction in product brands/manufacturer, sure, buy the cheap shit. I do often. But how many "cheap shit" items do you need to buy to say "forget this, I'm going to buy a quality item made in the US/West"? For me, not that many.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow , so chock full of errors in assumption I do n't even know where to begin.The reason your typical Dell computer costs $ 400 is because they can ship part of the costs of support out to India.Wrong .
The only thing they ca n't effectively outsource to India is support ( they tried , it did n't work ) .
But everything else is made by the lowest bidder , leaving only the " support " jobs to Americans .
What was that idea Ford had which made him massively successful ?
Oh yeah , he made is so his products were cheap enough for his factory employees to buy .
Only problem is that we forgot the second half of that statement : we 're just making them cheap , now , and the " company employees " are n't making much at all ( because all the high-pay jobs are no longer : they 're being done at essentially-flat rates overseas .
) The same is true of big-box retailers like Walmart selling t-shirts and teapots cranked out in Chinese , Indian , and Indonesian factories for substantially less than local boutiques like American Apparel that sell US-made goods .
Part of what you 're paying for is branding , distribution chain inefficiency , fashion , etc .
but it 's important not to discount the labor cost--no matter how small--because that 's all part of the race to the bottom.Wrong .
Chinese Walmart shit is cheaper because : a ) it 's ( often ) poorly made , with poor QC.b ) economy of scale .
Walmart buys a LOT of stuff , much more than anyone else can afford , and can thereforec ) You honestly think that it might be cheaper to make - and subsequently ship - a t-shirt from China than it would be to make it locally ( within say , 500 miles ) ?
Considering the majority of a product 's cost ( including food ) is in transportation expenses , that 's highly , highly unlikely.Now , if there is no -real- distinction in product brands/manufacturer , sure , buy the cheap shit .
I do often .
But how many " cheap shit " items do you need to buy to say " forget this , I 'm going to buy a quality item made in the US/West " ?
For me , not that many .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow, so chock full of errors in assumption I don't even know where to begin.The reason your typical Dell computer costs $400 is because they can ship part of the costs of support out to India.Wrong.
The only thing they can't effectively outsource to India is support (they tried, it didn't work).
But everything else is made by the lowest bidder, leaving only the "support" jobs to Americans.
What was that idea Ford had which made him massively successful?
Oh yeah, he made is so his products were cheap enough for his factory employees to buy.
Only problem is that we forgot the second half of that statement: we're just making them cheap, now, and the "company employees" aren't making much at all (because all the high-pay jobs are no longer: they're being done at essentially-flat rates overseas.
)The same is true of big-box retailers like Walmart selling t-shirts and teapots cranked out in Chinese, Indian, and Indonesian factories for substantially less than local boutiques like American Apparel that sell US-made goods.
Part of what you're paying for is branding, distribution chain inefficiency, fashion, etc.
but it's important not to discount the labor cost--no matter how small--because that's all part of the race to the bottom.Wrong.
Chinese Walmart shit is cheaper because:a) it's (often) poorly made, with poor QC.b) economy of scale.
Walmart buys a LOT of stuff, much more than anyone else can afford, and can thereforec) You honestly think that it might be cheaper to make - and subsequently ship - a t-shirt from China than it would be to make it locally (within say, 500 miles)?
Considering the majority of a product's cost (including food) is in transportation expenses, that's highly, highly unlikely.Now, if there is no -real- distinction in product brands/manufacturer, sure, buy the cheap shit.
I do often.
But how many "cheap shit" items do you need to buy to say "forget this, I'm going to buy a quality item made in the US/West"?
For me, not that many.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28429025</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245665520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>HCL, Wipro, etc. have destroyed many an American company with their frauds. It is nice to hear an Indian admit the reality. Boeing Dreamliner project has been delayed 5 times in part because HCL is doing the software for it and it doesn't work. Nearly every major American company that you have been hearing about dying or needing a bailout has outsourced to an Indian vendor. These people have no experience in modern western industry. GM outsourced to Wipro in 2006. GM is now bankrupt. Indian and Chinese guest workers took over PeopleSoft in 2000. They're gone. Same with Sun. Sun was facing closing its doors and had to be sold to Oracle to avoid the embarassment. Bell Labs was taken over by Arun Netravalli who destroyed it (it's now being turned into a shopping mall and hotel). Alukah Kamar took over Quark and turned out to be a fraud and almost killed the company. MIT Media Lab Asia was canceled when MIT found out invoices in India were being faked. The list goes on and on. These people in these outsourcing companies have at most 10 years of experience and lack the institutional knowledge needed for modern industry. No wonder we're having so many problems. India has done a masterful PR job conning western MBA-style businessmen who know nothing about software.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>HCL , Wipro , etc .
have destroyed many an American company with their frauds .
It is nice to hear an Indian admit the reality .
Boeing Dreamliner project has been delayed 5 times in part because HCL is doing the software for it and it does n't work .
Nearly every major American company that you have been hearing about dying or needing a bailout has outsourced to an Indian vendor .
These people have no experience in modern western industry .
GM outsourced to Wipro in 2006 .
GM is now bankrupt .
Indian and Chinese guest workers took over PeopleSoft in 2000 .
They 're gone .
Same with Sun .
Sun was facing closing its doors and had to be sold to Oracle to avoid the embarassment .
Bell Labs was taken over by Arun Netravalli who destroyed it ( it 's now being turned into a shopping mall and hotel ) .
Alukah Kamar took over Quark and turned out to be a fraud and almost killed the company .
MIT Media Lab Asia was canceled when MIT found out invoices in India were being faked .
The list goes on and on .
These people in these outsourcing companies have at most 10 years of experience and lack the institutional knowledge needed for modern industry .
No wonder we 're having so many problems .
India has done a masterful PR job conning western MBA-style businessmen who know nothing about software .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>HCL, Wipro, etc.
have destroyed many an American company with their frauds.
It is nice to hear an Indian admit the reality.
Boeing Dreamliner project has been delayed 5 times in part because HCL is doing the software for it and it doesn't work.
Nearly every major American company that you have been hearing about dying or needing a bailout has outsourced to an Indian vendor.
These people have no experience in modern western industry.
GM outsourced to Wipro in 2006.
GM is now bankrupt.
Indian and Chinese guest workers took over PeopleSoft in 2000.
They're gone.
Same with Sun.
Sun was facing closing its doors and had to be sold to Oracle to avoid the embarassment.
Bell Labs was taken over by Arun Netravalli who destroyed it (it's now being turned into a shopping mall and hotel).
Alukah Kamar took over Quark and turned out to be a fraud and almost killed the company.
MIT Media Lab Asia was canceled when MIT found out invoices in India were being faked.
The list goes on and on.
These people in these outsourcing companies have at most 10 years of experience and lack the institutional knowledge needed for modern industry.
No wonder we're having so many problems.
India has done a masterful PR job conning western MBA-style businessmen who know nothing about software.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418693</id>
	<title>Re:...News at 11.</title>
	<author>synthesizerpatel</author>
	<datestamp>1245665940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To say that Indians are 'better' or that American's are 'worse' is kind of like saying African Americans are better athletes. It's just racist hyperbole.</p><p>I've worked in Silicon Valley for about 15 years now, and I've worked with both Americans and Indians from all ranges of the 'super elite' to 'cut and what do I do then? oh yes paste' spectrum of skill levels. Everyone is different, it's not the nation that you grow up in or the quality of your college, its what's in your head and how you use it.</p><p>If you're not the alpha dog you've got two choices, subjugate yourself to the alpha dog, or try to take its spot.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To say that Indians are 'better ' or that American 's are 'worse ' is kind of like saying African Americans are better athletes .
It 's just racist hyperbole.I 've worked in Silicon Valley for about 15 years now , and I 've worked with both Americans and Indians from all ranges of the 'super elite ' to 'cut and what do I do then ?
oh yes paste ' spectrum of skill levels .
Everyone is different , it 's not the nation that you grow up in or the quality of your college , its what 's in your head and how you use it.If you 're not the alpha dog you 've got two choices , subjugate yourself to the alpha dog , or try to take its spot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To say that Indians are 'better' or that American's are 'worse' is kind of like saying African Americans are better athletes.
It's just racist hyperbole.I've worked in Silicon Valley for about 15 years now, and I've worked with both Americans and Indians from all ranges of the 'super elite' to 'cut and what do I do then?
oh yes paste' spectrum of skill levels.
Everyone is different, it's not the nation that you grow up in or the quality of your college, its what's in your head and how you use it.If you're not the alpha dog you've got two choices, subjugate yourself to the alpha dog, or try to take its spot.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417493</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417569</id>
	<title>Yes, we yanks are such dolts!</title>
	<author>spiffmastercow</author>
	<datestamp>1245612600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>If only we could have those 2-week programming courses you give your Indian programmers before you let them loose on mission-critical projects, imagine what great programmers we could be!</htmltext>
<tokenext>If only we could have those 2-week programming courses you give your Indian programmers before you let them loose on mission-critical projects , imagine what great programmers we could be !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If only we could have those 2-week programming courses you give your Indian programmers before you let them loose on mission-critical projects, imagine what great programmers we could be!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422587</id>
	<title>Re:Having had some experience</title>
	<author>DaMattster</author>
	<datestamp>1245686940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>So we should all become slaves to our corporation?  We should work continuously until we die?  That, sir, is slavery<nobr> <wbr></nobr>......... pure and simple slavery.  Thank god the USA has laws against slavery!  Work-life balance is extremely important and it is observations like your own that cause thinking to go back to the early days of the Industrial Revolution.</htmltext>
<tokenext>So we should all become slaves to our corporation ?
We should work continuously until we die ?
That , sir , is slavery ......... pure and simple slavery .
Thank god the USA has laws against slavery !
Work-life balance is extremely important and it is observations like your own that cause thinking to go back to the early days of the Industrial Revolution .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So we should all become slaves to our corporation?
We should work continuously until we die?
That, sir, is slavery ......... pure and simple slavery.
Thank god the USA has laws against slavery!
Work-life balance is extremely important and it is observations like your own that cause thinking to go back to the early days of the Industrial Revolution.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418313</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417661</id>
	<title>What a crock of shit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245613440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm currently working at a major US tech company and litterly every program I have inherited from some out sourcing group is utter crap. I'm talking about EVERY variable is a global variable, one source file for a 5000 line program, no makefile just a line at the top which says compile with gcc blah blah blah, and the list goes on. The reason for out sourcing is not skill its cost. Why pay an American programmer who knows what hes doing when you can out source it and get a program which barely works and when bugs arise blame something/someone else.

<br> <br>
In the long run these companies are going to learn the hard way that paying an out sourced developer who has a 3 month class in C will get you nowhere near a developer with a CS degree in terms of quality, functionality, and efficiency.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm currently working at a major US tech company and litterly every program I have inherited from some out sourcing group is utter crap .
I 'm talking about EVERY variable is a global variable , one source file for a 5000 line program , no makefile just a line at the top which says compile with gcc blah blah blah , and the list goes on .
The reason for out sourcing is not skill its cost .
Why pay an American programmer who knows what hes doing when you can out source it and get a program which barely works and when bugs arise blame something/someone else .
In the long run these companies are going to learn the hard way that paying an out sourced developer who has a 3 month class in C will get you nowhere near a developer with a CS degree in terms of quality , functionality , and efficiency .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm currently working at a major US tech company and litterly every program I have inherited from some out sourcing group is utter crap.
I'm talking about EVERY variable is a global variable, one source file for a 5000 line program, no makefile just a line at the top which says compile with gcc blah blah blah, and the list goes on.
The reason for out sourcing is not skill its cost.
Why pay an American programmer who knows what hes doing when you can out source it and get a program which barely works and when bugs arise blame something/someone else.
In the long run these companies are going to learn the hard way that paying an out sourced developer who has a 3 month class in C will get you nowhere near a developer with a CS degree in terms of quality, functionality, and efficiency.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419063</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>blunte</author>
	<datestamp>1245669180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What you describe does not surprise me, and in fact much of the blame does go all the way up the US management chain.</p><p>Ultimately the US business game is about quarterly earnings per share, and using stupid tactics like these help boost those numbers temporarily.  Of course in the long run overall performance of the company suffers (and along the way, Americans have fewer job opportunities).</p><p>My personal experience with outsourcing people is that they simply cannot think outside the box.  In fact, they cannot think beyond explicit instructions.  For the level of energy it takes to adequately instruct an offshore worker, we can do the work ourselves.  This is especially true with the more agile languages and toolkits these days.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What you describe does not surprise me , and in fact much of the blame does go all the way up the US management chain.Ultimately the US business game is about quarterly earnings per share , and using stupid tactics like these help boost those numbers temporarily .
Of course in the long run overall performance of the company suffers ( and along the way , Americans have fewer job opportunities ) .My personal experience with outsourcing people is that they simply can not think outside the box .
In fact , they can not think beyond explicit instructions .
For the level of energy it takes to adequately instruct an offshore worker , we can do the work ourselves .
This is especially true with the more agile languages and toolkits these days .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What you describe does not surprise me, and in fact much of the blame does go all the way up the US management chain.Ultimately the US business game is about quarterly earnings per share, and using stupid tactics like these help boost those numbers temporarily.
Of course in the long run overall performance of the company suffers (and along the way, Americans have fewer job opportunities).My personal experience with outsourcing people is that they simply cannot think outside the box.
In fact, they cannot think beyond explicit instructions.
For the level of energy it takes to adequately instruct an offshore worker, we can do the work ourselves.
This is especially true with the more agile languages and toolkits these days.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417751</id>
	<title>How Bill Gates got to be a philanthropist.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245614040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So anything over $.20 per hr is overpriced? Now you get an idea of the source of MS's QC on Windows is coming from and how much it is worth. So its buggy, the price is right.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So anything over $ .20 per hr is overpriced ?
Now you get an idea of the source of MS 's QC on Windows is coming from and how much it is worth .
So its buggy , the price is right .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So anything over $.20 per hr is overpriced?
Now you get an idea of the source of MS's QC on Windows is coming from and how much it is worth.
So its buggy, the price is right.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418995</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>bheer</author>
	<datestamp>1245668700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; We have all this dvd regionalized shit, and protected trade zones, and other restrictions on free trade.</p><p>Indian drug companies would be very happy to sell you their 10c drugs, I imagine. You are aware that the only reason they can't is that the WTO forbids them to? And guess who the main pusher of the WTO is? Yep, US.gov.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; We have all this dvd regionalized shit , and protected trade zones , and other restrictions on free trade.Indian drug companies would be very happy to sell you their 10c drugs , I imagine .
You are aware that the only reason they ca n't is that the WTO forbids them to ?
And guess who the main pusher of the WTO is ?
Yep , US.gov .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; We have all this dvd regionalized shit, and protected trade zones, and other restrictions on free trade.Indian drug companies would be very happy to sell you their 10c drugs, I imagine.
You are aware that the only reason they can't is that the WTO forbids them to?
And guess who the main pusher of the WTO is?
Yep, US.gov.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28438833</id>
	<title>A New Home for Steve?</title>
	<author>LifesABeach</author>
	<datestamp>1245771840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Just a thought; maybe because the world appears to be very rosy for Steve Ballmers, that maybe he can spend some of it in India.  I'm told that the culture there is old, and wise.  A good thing for people that like to sing and dance for the H1B listeners.  I think the U.S. maybe a place to small for the likes of Steve?  Steve, India awaits your grand entrance.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just a thought ; maybe because the world appears to be very rosy for Steve Ballmers , that maybe he can spend some of it in India .
I 'm told that the culture there is old , and wise .
A good thing for people that like to sing and dance for the H1B listeners .
I think the U.S. maybe a place to small for the likes of Steve ?
Steve , India awaits your grand entrance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just a thought; maybe because the world appears to be very rosy for Steve Ballmers, that maybe he can spend some of it in India.
I'm told that the culture there is old, and wise.
A good thing for people that like to sing and dance for the H1B listeners.
I think the U.S. maybe a place to small for the likes of Steve?
Steve, India awaits your grand entrance.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418651</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245665580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Supposedly, the Indians coming to the States are the smartest. I find them to be no better than American educated and trained workers. IIT is not a breeding ground for great talent, rather superior attitudes. No different than the Ivy League in the United States. I have worked with plenty of Indian talent in Silicon Valley, and managed many as well. It depends on the person; where you go to school, or if you go to school, is irrelevant.</p><p>The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list.</p></div><p>So you are a racist bastard and discriminate proudly? No wonder your stereotypes are always confirmed.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Supposedly , the Indians coming to the States are the smartest .
I find them to be no better than American educated and trained workers .
IIT is not a breeding ground for great talent , rather superior attitudes .
No different than the Ivy League in the United States .
I have worked with plenty of Indian talent in Silicon Valley , and managed many as well .
It depends on the person ; where you go to school , or if you go to school , is irrelevant.The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list.So you are a racist bastard and discriminate proudly ?
No wonder your stereotypes are always confirmed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Supposedly, the Indians coming to the States are the smartest.
I find them to be no better than American educated and trained workers.
IIT is not a breeding ground for great talent, rather superior attitudes.
No different than the Ivy League in the United States.
I have worked with plenty of Indian talent in Silicon Valley, and managed many as well.
It depends on the person; where you go to school, or if you go to school, is irrelevant.The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list.So you are a racist bastard and discriminate proudly?
No wonder your stereotypes are always confirmed.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417553</id>
	<title>secret ??</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245612480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"reportedly awarded a secretive $170 million outsourcing contract by Microsoft"<br>umm, if it's reported, how is it secretive then ?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" reportedly awarded a secretive $ 170 million outsourcing contract by Microsoft " umm , if it 's reported , how is it secretive then ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"reportedly awarded a secretive $170 million outsourcing contract by Microsoft"umm, if it's reported, how is it secretive then ?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28484003</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1246036080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>on IIT is not a breeding ground for great talent, rather superior attitudes .<br>Go to godel prize list and find how many indians got it......and i am sure about it that all are  IITians<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.visit cse department of all top university of USA.you will find how indians especially IITians are driving the cs world..<br>you should know that IIT produce intellectual<br>not merely coder......</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>on IIT is not a breeding ground for great talent , rather superior attitudes .Go to godel prize list and find how many indians got it......and i am sure about it that all are IITians .visit cse department of all top university of USA.you will find how indians especially IITians are driving the cs world..you should know that IIT produce intellectualnot merely coder..... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>on IIT is not a breeding ground for great talent, rather superior attitudes .Go to godel prize list and find how many indians got it......and i am sure about it that all are  IITians .visit cse department of all top university of USA.you will find how indians especially IITians are driving the cs world..you should know that IIT produce intellectualnot merely coder......</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419153</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>mcvos</author>
	<datestamp>1245669840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Interesting read, and I recognise parts of it. I worked on a project at a major bank that had a big standing contract with TCS, making it much more attractive to hire Indians rather than European programmers. My (now ex-)employer gives away our <a href="http://www.hippocms.org/" title="hippocms.org">Open Source CMS</a> [hippocms.org] and sells expert support for it. The bank thought: free CMS + free Indian programmers = free (as in beer) software!</p><p>After a couple of months, the TCS people realised they'd bitten off more than they could chew and hired us to help them.</p><p>In all fairness, the Indians working here were quite competent. I mean, they did make very long hours, and didn't really accomplish much more than I did in my barely 8 hours a day, and their code was a big unmaintainable mess with tons of code duplication (we told them several times to fix that, but they never did). But on the whole, they were pretty good. They worked hard, their code worked, and they solved a lot of really complex problems that would have given a lot of programmers trouble. And they were willing to learn and improve themselves (except when it came to cleaning up their code). Most of all, they were far, far better than the people working in India. I heard they had a 20-man team in India working on the same project, and they accomplished less than the three or four of us did over here. Often they just broke stuff or accidentally checked their "My Documents" folder into SVN.</p><p>The guys working at the bank office (in Europe) were clearly the cream of the crop.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Interesting read , and I recognise parts of it .
I worked on a project at a major bank that had a big standing contract with TCS , making it much more attractive to hire Indians rather than European programmers .
My ( now ex- ) employer gives away our Open Source CMS [ hippocms.org ] and sells expert support for it .
The bank thought : free CMS + free Indian programmers = free ( as in beer ) software ! After a couple of months , the TCS people realised they 'd bitten off more than they could chew and hired us to help them.In all fairness , the Indians working here were quite competent .
I mean , they did make very long hours , and did n't really accomplish much more than I did in my barely 8 hours a day , and their code was a big unmaintainable mess with tons of code duplication ( we told them several times to fix that , but they never did ) .
But on the whole , they were pretty good .
They worked hard , their code worked , and they solved a lot of really complex problems that would have given a lot of programmers trouble .
And they were willing to learn and improve themselves ( except when it came to cleaning up their code ) .
Most of all , they were far , far better than the people working in India .
I heard they had a 20-man team in India working on the same project , and they accomplished less than the three or four of us did over here .
Often they just broke stuff or accidentally checked their " My Documents " folder into SVN.The guys working at the bank office ( in Europe ) were clearly the cream of the crop .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Interesting read, and I recognise parts of it.
I worked on a project at a major bank that had a big standing contract with TCS, making it much more attractive to hire Indians rather than European programmers.
My (now ex-)employer gives away our Open Source CMS [hippocms.org] and sells expert support for it.
The bank thought: free CMS + free Indian programmers = free (as in beer) software!After a couple of months, the TCS people realised they'd bitten off more than they could chew and hired us to help them.In all fairness, the Indians working here were quite competent.
I mean, they did make very long hours, and didn't really accomplish much more than I did in my barely 8 hours a day, and their code was a big unmaintainable mess with tons of code duplication (we told them several times to fix that, but they never did).
But on the whole, they were pretty good.
They worked hard, their code worked, and they solved a lot of really complex problems that would have given a lot of programmers trouble.
And they were willing to learn and improve themselves (except when it came to cleaning up their code).
Most of all, they were far, far better than the people working in India.
I heard they had a 20-man team in India working on the same project, and they accomplished less than the three or four of us did over here.
Often they just broke stuff or accidentally checked their "My Documents" folder into SVN.The guys working at the bank office (in Europe) were clearly the cream of the crop.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424851</id>
	<title>cowboy</title>
	<author>bugi</author>
	<datestamp>1245694680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But cowboying our way through is what got us where we are today!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But cowboying our way through is what got us where we are today !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But cowboying our way through is what got us where we are today!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420623</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245680160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Because the people still in India writing your shitty code are the ones that weren't filtered out of the process of being able to go abroad...</p><p>Microsoft, google, and whoever get to pick from the top, the people you are outsourcing in India are probably just like the lazy graduate students here who can't do shit either.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because the people still in India writing your shitty code are the ones that were n't filtered out of the process of being able to go abroad...Microsoft , google , and whoever get to pick from the top , the people you are outsourcing in India are probably just like the lazy graduate students here who ca n't do shit either .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because the people still in India writing your shitty code are the ones that weren't filtered out of the process of being able to go abroad...Microsoft, google, and whoever get to pick from the top, the people you are outsourcing in India are probably just like the lazy graduate students here who can't do shit either.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421779</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>Rogerborg</author>
	<datestamp>1245684300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Do you see a distinction between <em>contains</em> and "is full of"?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do you see a distinction between contains and " is full of " ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do you see a distinction between contains and "is full of"?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417687</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418887</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>rennerik</author>
	<datestamp>1245667680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Except Indians make an average of $2/hour, so that $1 piece of clothing looks a bit more like $20 to them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Except Indians make an average of $ 2/hour , so that $ 1 piece of clothing looks a bit more like $ 20 to them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Except Indians make an average of $2/hour, so that $1 piece of clothing looks a bit more like $20 to them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419789</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>drsquare</author>
	<datestamp>1245675180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>But unfortunately HCL is not the only monkey around.</p></div></blockquote><p>Why is this racist shit modded up?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>But unfortunately HCL is not the only monkey around.Why is this racist shit modded up ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But unfortunately HCL is not the only monkey around.Why is this racist shit modded up?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424579</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245693660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's just a different perspective.  My experience with a batch of IIT hires was to be told by their (Indian) boss that their intelligence and schooling meant they were so smart they needed no training.  That would have explanation enough for their having problems, but not for their inability to perform tasks like rounding a value to a certain number of decimal places.  This was complicated by an inability to criticize the programmers in the larger company that hired us, to audit the very code those programmers wrote, bug reports being seen as a criticism.</p><p>Not that it is a very useful perspective</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's just a different perspective .
My experience with a batch of IIT hires was to be told by their ( Indian ) boss that their intelligence and schooling meant they were so smart they needed no training .
That would have explanation enough for their having problems , but not for their inability to perform tasks like rounding a value to a certain number of decimal places .
This was complicated by an inability to criticize the programmers in the larger company that hired us , to audit the very code those programmers wrote , bug reports being seen as a criticism.Not that it is a very useful perspective</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's just a different perspective.
My experience with a batch of IIT hires was to be told by their (Indian) boss that their intelligence and schooling meant they were so smart they needed no training.
That would have explanation enough for their having problems, but not for their inability to perform tasks like rounding a value to a certain number of decimal places.
This was complicated by an inability to criticize the programmers in the larger company that hired us, to audit the very code those programmers wrote, bug reports being seen as a criticism.Not that it is a very useful perspective</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419881</id>
	<title>Re:My observations.</title>
	<author>drsquare</author>
	<datestamp>1245675780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In which case, no-one will want to spend $200k being trained to do a $35k job, so the colleges will have to either cut their prices or go out of business. Either way, everyone wins.</p><p>Speaking of plumbers, in the UK a few years ago, plumbers could charge what they liked. Now thanks to immigration, you don't get gouged every time your sink is blocked.</p><p>Immigration is good for everyone other than those who were ripping you off in the first place. Maybe now new grads won't be able to demand six figures for writing 'hello world'. Maybe it will be cheaper to set up a software company and provide more competition to the market.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In which case , no-one will want to spend $ 200k being trained to do a $ 35k job , so the colleges will have to either cut their prices or go out of business .
Either way , everyone wins.Speaking of plumbers , in the UK a few years ago , plumbers could charge what they liked .
Now thanks to immigration , you do n't get gouged every time your sink is blocked.Immigration is good for everyone other than those who were ripping you off in the first place .
Maybe now new grads wo n't be able to demand six figures for writing 'hello world' .
Maybe it will be cheaper to set up a software company and provide more competition to the market .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In which case, no-one will want to spend $200k being trained to do a $35k job, so the colleges will have to either cut their prices or go out of business.
Either way, everyone wins.Speaking of plumbers, in the UK a few years ago, plumbers could charge what they liked.
Now thanks to immigration, you don't get gouged every time your sink is blocked.Immigration is good for everyone other than those who were ripping you off in the first place.
Maybe now new grads won't be able to demand six figures for writing 'hello world'.
Maybe it will be cheaper to set up a software company and provide more competition to the market.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417629</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28442783</id>
	<title>how you create global 'employable' talent</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245786060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think Vineet has been quoted in a wrong context...Check out Vineet's perspective on 'Employability' at his blog post http://vineet.hclblogs.com/?p=76</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think Vineet has been quoted in a wrong context...Check out Vineet 's perspective on 'Employability ' at his blog post http : //vineet.hclblogs.com/ ? p = 76</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think Vineet has been quoted in a wrong context...Check out Vineet's perspective on 'Employability' at his blog post http://vineet.hclblogs.com/?p=76</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28426791</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245701640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just wanted to post and say that I agree with what you're saying.  I used to work in a similar situation here in the USA, not IT but engineering outsourcing and it's the same story, maybe not to that extent but the basics are the same.  You're definately NOT encouraged to be efficient or spend "non billable time" working on something to make your work easier or more efficient.  They just want you to document your time properly and as long as they can justify they time you spent they're happy.</p><p>Lots of good people do exist, but the bottom line is if you're the project manager overseeing something that's outsourced, watch them like a hawk and get to know who's working for you because the firm doing the outsourcing has little incentive to look out for your true needs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just wanted to post and say that I agree with what you 're saying .
I used to work in a similar situation here in the USA , not IT but engineering outsourcing and it 's the same story , maybe not to that extent but the basics are the same .
You 're definately NOT encouraged to be efficient or spend " non billable time " working on something to make your work easier or more efficient .
They just want you to document your time properly and as long as they can justify they time you spent they 're happy.Lots of good people do exist , but the bottom line is if you 're the project manager overseeing something that 's outsourced , watch them like a hawk and get to know who 's working for you because the firm doing the outsourcing has little incentive to look out for your true needs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just wanted to post and say that I agree with what you're saying.
I used to work in a similar situation here in the USA, not IT but engineering outsourcing and it's the same story, maybe not to that extent but the basics are the same.
You're definately NOT encouraged to be efficient or spend "non billable time" working on something to make your work easier or more efficient.
They just want you to document your time properly and as long as they can justify they time you spent they're happy.Lots of good people do exist, but the bottom line is if you're the project manager overseeing something that's outsourced, watch them like a hawk and get to know who's working for you because the firm doing the outsourcing has little incentive to look out for your true needs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422767</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>DaMattster</author>
	<datestamp>1245687540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This may also explain why the call centers are reluctant to escalate the issue when it is painfully obvious that it needs to be</htmltext>
<tokenext>This may also explain why the call centers are reluctant to escalate the issue when it is painfully obvious that it needs to be</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This may also explain why the call centers are reluctant to escalate the issue when it is painfully obvious that it needs to be</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422511</id>
	<title>HCL looking for a freebie</title>
	<author>Rsriram</author>
	<datestamp>1245686700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Software services companies like HCL look for specific technical skills to fill needs in specific projects, especially when hiring in the US.<br>Grads come with generic programming skills that needs to be honed. Comp Sci grads in India are trained to program for 4 months on an average after they graduate by companies like HCL. But the training costs about $3000 dollars for 4 months including the salary of the graduate during the period.<br>Grads in the US can be trained in about 30-60 days but that is still expensive when compared to what it costs back in India. It would be great if HCL could give the univ a list of technology skills they are hiring next quarter and the university does the training for free. That way HCL can lower their training costs.<br>Of course, as a person who believes in free as in beer software, I think HCL is trying to be cheap but then, hey I am cheap too!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Software services companies like HCL look for specific technical skills to fill needs in specific projects , especially when hiring in the US.Grads come with generic programming skills that needs to be honed .
Comp Sci grads in India are trained to program for 4 months on an average after they graduate by companies like HCL .
But the training costs about $ 3000 dollars for 4 months including the salary of the graduate during the period.Grads in the US can be trained in about 30-60 days but that is still expensive when compared to what it costs back in India .
It would be great if HCL could give the univ a list of technology skills they are hiring next quarter and the university does the training for free .
That way HCL can lower their training costs.Of course , as a person who believes in free as in beer software , I think HCL is trying to be cheap but then , hey I am cheap too !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Software services companies like HCL look for specific technical skills to fill needs in specific projects, especially when hiring in the US.Grads come with generic programming skills that needs to be honed.
Comp Sci grads in India are trained to program for 4 months on an average after they graduate by companies like HCL.
But the training costs about $3000 dollars for 4 months including the salary of the graduate during the period.Grads in the US can be trained in about 30-60 days but that is still expensive when compared to what it costs back in India.
It would be great if HCL could give the univ a list of technology skills they are hiring next quarter and the university does the training for free.
That way HCL can lower their training costs.Of course, as a person who believes in free as in beer software, I think HCL is trying to be cheap but then, hey I am cheap too!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419693</id>
	<title>This guy needs to go</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245674400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Let me be the first to say:  "Get out of our country, you racist fuck".</htmltext>
<tokenext>Let me be the first to say : " Get out of our country , you racist fuck " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let me be the first to say:  "Get out of our country, you racist fuck".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425339</id>
	<title>So his point is...</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1245696300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...that American Grads do not like to be treated like slaves?</p><p>So shit Sherlock? ^^</p><p>I find that a good thing, actually.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...that American Grads do not like to be treated like slaves ? So shit Sherlock ?
^ ^ I find that a good thing , actually .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...that American Grads do not like to be treated like slaves?So shit Sherlock?
^^I find that a good thing, actually.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28426031</id>
	<title>Devide and conquer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245698880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's funny how corporations and CEO's around the world are starting to play this game: to pit programmers in different parts of the world against each other, in order to serve the corporate bottom line. It's the same game politicians play by exploiting differences in religion, nationalism in order to gain and retain power. It's sad that they are succeeding so easily and the supposedly illuminated and smart programmers act no differently than angry villagers, blaming each other instead of looking at the big picture. The truth is that both the Indian and American programmers are exploited as much as possible by corporations. It is possible to do it as long as there are huge wage differences at different segments of the world and there is always more surplus for work than demand. This applies virtually to all professions these days - again, as a general tendency. This will only get worse, as countries with huge population start to produce better educated workforce by the millions every year. The trend is pretty clear, earning power for employees is on a steady decline. The term "third world countries" will not be defined by borders, it will be extended to all employees, regardless where they live. The concentration of power and wealth continues and it will be clear that being an American or British employee in any field no longer qualifies to guaranteed better lifestyle than the members of the same profession in India or China. It's difficult to see how it's not gonna be class struggle all over again once corporations manage to re-create proletariat from former middle-class knowledge workers. Eventually the crowd of a few billion will demand explanation from the other 1 percent, as seen in history over and over again. So deja vu.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's funny how corporations and CEO 's around the world are starting to play this game : to pit programmers in different parts of the world against each other , in order to serve the corporate bottom line .
It 's the same game politicians play by exploiting differences in religion , nationalism in order to gain and retain power .
It 's sad that they are succeeding so easily and the supposedly illuminated and smart programmers act no differently than angry villagers , blaming each other instead of looking at the big picture .
The truth is that both the Indian and American programmers are exploited as much as possible by corporations .
It is possible to do it as long as there are huge wage differences at different segments of the world and there is always more surplus for work than demand .
This applies virtually to all professions these days - again , as a general tendency .
This will only get worse , as countries with huge population start to produce better educated workforce by the millions every year .
The trend is pretty clear , earning power for employees is on a steady decline .
The term " third world countries " will not be defined by borders , it will be extended to all employees , regardless where they live .
The concentration of power and wealth continues and it will be clear that being an American or British employee in any field no longer qualifies to guaranteed better lifestyle than the members of the same profession in India or China .
It 's difficult to see how it 's not gon na be class struggle all over again once corporations manage to re-create proletariat from former middle-class knowledge workers .
Eventually the crowd of a few billion will demand explanation from the other 1 percent , as seen in history over and over again .
So deja vu .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's funny how corporations and CEO's around the world are starting to play this game: to pit programmers in different parts of the world against each other, in order to serve the corporate bottom line.
It's the same game politicians play by exploiting differences in religion, nationalism in order to gain and retain power.
It's sad that they are succeeding so easily and the supposedly illuminated and smart programmers act no differently than angry villagers, blaming each other instead of looking at the big picture.
The truth is that both the Indian and American programmers are exploited as much as possible by corporations.
It is possible to do it as long as there are huge wage differences at different segments of the world and there is always more surplus for work than demand.
This applies virtually to all professions these days - again, as a general tendency.
This will only get worse, as countries with huge population start to produce better educated workforce by the millions every year.
The trend is pretty clear, earning power for employees is on a steady decline.
The term "third world countries" will not be defined by borders, it will be extended to all employees, regardless where they live.
The concentration of power and wealth continues and it will be clear that being an American or British employee in any field no longer qualifies to guaranteed better lifestyle than the members of the same profession in India or China.
It's difficult to see how it's not gonna be class struggle all over again once corporations manage to re-create proletariat from former middle-class knowledge workers.
Eventually the crowd of a few billion will demand explanation from the other 1 percent, as seen in history over and over again.
So deja vu.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417727</id>
	<title>America is the only "Speculation" country.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245613860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You don't see any risk-taking in these little foreigner 3rd-world countries.  Yea, the one's that have rampant overpopulation, generate more old-wives tales than 4chan.  Yea their the one's like Mexico that nickle-and-dime labor markets over ruling empires like the USA, to the point that the value of life itself is a depressing implosion to privilege of malnourished death rather than to be served as a delicacy on a street-corner grill.  Yea, with such wonderful countries that make life such a mediocre contemplation of excess rags and disease, they can brag all they want about how their royalty are inferior to the USA's middle-class as they rule the impounded masses over their driftwood houses and bamboo shanti's.</p><p>Free Trade my ass. No other country than the USA has been so risky, that it's debt draws to unhand land to these foreigners when the foreigners themselves wouldn't dare escrow any foundation for supporting futures and enterprise.</p><p>Just cut the debt, and declare war on the world.  U.S. debt is illegal to go overseas.  If they think they can buy U.S. debt, then they can get a bullet in the head for preventing the USA from paying back it's debts.  Debt becomes void when it is snuck out of the country.</p><p>Fuck mexico, china, india, and especially Vatican City.  Without the USA, 3rd world has no reason; they were the underminors that commit economic warfare daily by the U.S. corporations overcompeting the local markets to hurt Americans.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do n't see any risk-taking in these little foreigner 3rd-world countries .
Yea , the one 's that have rampant overpopulation , generate more old-wives tales than 4chan .
Yea their the one 's like Mexico that nickle-and-dime labor markets over ruling empires like the USA , to the point that the value of life itself is a depressing implosion to privilege of malnourished death rather than to be served as a delicacy on a street-corner grill .
Yea , with such wonderful countries that make life such a mediocre contemplation of excess rags and disease , they can brag all they want about how their royalty are inferior to the USA 's middle-class as they rule the impounded masses over their driftwood houses and bamboo shanti 's.Free Trade my ass .
No other country than the USA has been so risky , that it 's debt draws to unhand land to these foreigners when the foreigners themselves would n't dare escrow any foundation for supporting futures and enterprise.Just cut the debt , and declare war on the world .
U.S. debt is illegal to go overseas .
If they think they can buy U.S. debt , then they can get a bullet in the head for preventing the USA from paying back it 's debts .
Debt becomes void when it is snuck out of the country.Fuck mexico , china , india , and especially Vatican City .
Without the USA , 3rd world has no reason ; they were the underminors that commit economic warfare daily by the U.S. corporations overcompeting the local markets to hurt Americans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You don't see any risk-taking in these little foreigner 3rd-world countries.
Yea, the one's that have rampant overpopulation, generate more old-wives tales than 4chan.
Yea their the one's like Mexico that nickle-and-dime labor markets over ruling empires like the USA, to the point that the value of life itself is a depressing implosion to privilege of malnourished death rather than to be served as a delicacy on a street-corner grill.
Yea, with such wonderful countries that make life such a mediocre contemplation of excess rags and disease, they can brag all they want about how their royalty are inferior to the USA's middle-class as they rule the impounded masses over their driftwood houses and bamboo shanti's.Free Trade my ass.
No other country than the USA has been so risky, that it's debt draws to unhand land to these foreigners when the foreigners themselves wouldn't dare escrow any foundation for supporting futures and enterprise.Just cut the debt, and declare war on the world.
U.S. debt is illegal to go overseas.
If they think they can buy U.S. debt, then they can get a bullet in the head for preventing the USA from paying back it's debts.
Debt becomes void when it is snuck out of the country.Fuck mexico, china, india, and especially Vatican City.
Without the USA, 3rd world has no reason; they were the underminors that commit economic warfare daily by the U.S. corporations overcompeting the local markets to hurt Americans.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420807</id>
	<title>Re:My observations.</title>
	<author>l3v1</author>
	<datestamp>1245680940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>$50-200k in student loans to pay back. It's basic economics</i> <br> <br>
All true. Expensive education pushes towards expensive labor force. Nothing miraculous.</htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 50-200k in student loans to pay back .
It 's basic economics All true .
Expensive education pushes towards expensive labor force .
Nothing miraculous .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$50-200k in student loans to pay back.
It's basic economics  
All true.
Expensive education pushes towards expensive labor force.
Nothing miraculous.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417629</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418587</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>damburger</author>
	<datestamp>1245665100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Agreed. I used to read Slashdot 10 years ago on 233 MHz Sparc 5 workstations, running SlowArseis and it was perfectly reasonable. Now it keeps beachballing my MacBookPro, which is ten times faster on clock speed alone, never mind it can do a lot more in a cycle, has faster bus, RAM and hard disk. </p><p>I would've thought Slashdot of all places wouldn't succumb to the gleeful bloat which has rendered spectacular advances in hardware almost irrelevant to the end user experience.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed .
I used to read Slashdot 10 years ago on 233 MHz Sparc 5 workstations , running SlowArseis and it was perfectly reasonable .
Now it keeps beachballing my MacBookPro , which is ten times faster on clock speed alone , never mind it can do a lot more in a cycle , has faster bus , RAM and hard disk .
I would 've thought Slashdot of all places would n't succumb to the gleeful bloat which has rendered spectacular advances in hardware almost irrelevant to the end user experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed.
I used to read Slashdot 10 years ago on 233 MHz Sparc 5 workstations, running SlowArseis and it was perfectly reasonable.
Now it keeps beachballing my MacBookPro, which is ten times faster on clock speed alone, never mind it can do a lot more in a cycle, has faster bus, RAM and hard disk.
I would've thought Slashdot of all places wouldn't succumb to the gleeful bloat which has rendered spectacular advances in hardware almost irrelevant to the end user experience.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418879</id>
	<title>Re:I'll guess I'll complain on Slashdot again</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245667620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem with online job searching:  If a boss is clued enough to be online posting jobs, they are clued enough to go through their friends network to find someone through that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem with online job searching : If a boss is clued enough to be online posting jobs , they are clued enough to go through their friends network to find someone through that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem with online job searching:  If a boss is clued enough to be online posting jobs, they are clued enough to go through their friends network to find someone through that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418351</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28435781</id>
	<title>Re:He has a bit of a point</title>
	<author>Lunzo</author>
	<datestamp>1245788580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Caleb, is that you?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Caleb , is that you ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Caleb, is that you?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419273</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418749</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Aceticon</author>
	<datestamp>1245666420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Although free trade has increased the average wealth in developed societies (wealth measured not just in money but also in what you can get for that money) it has also increased wealth inequality (the second effect being much stronger than the first).</p><p>As you pointed out, there is a huge difference in prices between the same goods in the original (developing) country and in any destination developed country. The difference is mostly captured by companies and then passed on to CxOs and large shareholders (small shareholders usually get a pittance on account of their share being a tiny percentage of the total).</p><p>Basically this is because of two effects:<br>- Job competition with foreign based/born workers (outsourcing) means that companies can (and do) pressure local workers to keep salaries low.<br>- Intellectual Property laws create artificial barriers which are only enforced in developed markets, thus resulting in high-spreads in the cost of medicines, video and audio media and trademarked goods (all which are very IP-heavy).</p><p>A lot of the problem is that large companies have a disproportionate amount of influence with politicians and thus get laws passed for their benefit which usually negatively affect people and small up-and-coming companies (anti-circumvention laws, over-broad IP laws and other barrier to entry laws).</p><p>It's thanks to this regulatory capture by the industry that the wealth produced by Free Trade has been channeled mostly to a small number of people.</p><p>Although some defend that what's needed is more Free Trade, it's my opinion that what the kind of trade we have now is not Free and that until the political system and the laws are fixed to remove the undue influence of special interest groups, rules have to be put in place to restrict trade: the truth is that, things being as they are now, just like the positive aspects of free trade went into the pockets of a few, the negative impact of restricting trade would hit the pockets of that same few.</p><p>Free Trade must be built on a basis of true freedom of trading, not in the tightly controlled channels of wealth as we have now - the trade off should be clear: either the benefits are free to flow to all or voters will turn against the opening of borders which is a requirement of Free Trade.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Although free trade has increased the average wealth in developed societies ( wealth measured not just in money but also in what you can get for that money ) it has also increased wealth inequality ( the second effect being much stronger than the first ) .As you pointed out , there is a huge difference in prices between the same goods in the original ( developing ) country and in any destination developed country .
The difference is mostly captured by companies and then passed on to CxOs and large shareholders ( small shareholders usually get a pittance on account of their share being a tiny percentage of the total ) .Basically this is because of two effects : - Job competition with foreign based/born workers ( outsourcing ) means that companies can ( and do ) pressure local workers to keep salaries low.- Intellectual Property laws create artificial barriers which are only enforced in developed markets , thus resulting in high-spreads in the cost of medicines , video and audio media and trademarked goods ( all which are very IP-heavy ) .A lot of the problem is that large companies have a disproportionate amount of influence with politicians and thus get laws passed for their benefit which usually negatively affect people and small up-and-coming companies ( anti-circumvention laws , over-broad IP laws and other barrier to entry laws ) .It 's thanks to this regulatory capture by the industry that the wealth produced by Free Trade has been channeled mostly to a small number of people.Although some defend that what 's needed is more Free Trade , it 's my opinion that what the kind of trade we have now is not Free and that until the political system and the laws are fixed to remove the undue influence of special interest groups , rules have to be put in place to restrict trade : the truth is that , things being as they are now , just like the positive aspects of free trade went into the pockets of a few , the negative impact of restricting trade would hit the pockets of that same few.Free Trade must be built on a basis of true freedom of trading , not in the tightly controlled channels of wealth as we have now - the trade off should be clear : either the benefits are free to flow to all or voters will turn against the opening of borders which is a requirement of Free Trade .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Although free trade has increased the average wealth in developed societies (wealth measured not just in money but also in what you can get for that money) it has also increased wealth inequality (the second effect being much stronger than the first).As you pointed out, there is a huge difference in prices between the same goods in the original (developing) country and in any destination developed country.
The difference is mostly captured by companies and then passed on to CxOs and large shareholders (small shareholders usually get a pittance on account of their share being a tiny percentage of the total).Basically this is because of two effects:- Job competition with foreign based/born workers (outsourcing) means that companies can (and do) pressure local workers to keep salaries low.- Intellectual Property laws create artificial barriers which are only enforced in developed markets, thus resulting in high-spreads in the cost of medicines, video and audio media and trademarked goods (all which are very IP-heavy).A lot of the problem is that large companies have a disproportionate amount of influence with politicians and thus get laws passed for their benefit which usually negatively affect people and small up-and-coming companies (anti-circumvention laws, over-broad IP laws and other barrier to entry laws).It's thanks to this regulatory capture by the industry that the wealth produced by Free Trade has been channeled mostly to a small number of people.Although some defend that what's needed is more Free Trade, it's my opinion that what the kind of trade we have now is not Free and that until the political system and the laws are fixed to remove the undue influence of special interest groups, rules have to be put in place to restrict trade: the truth is that, things being as they are now, just like the positive aspects of free trade went into the pockets of a few, the negative impact of restricting trade would hit the pockets of that same few.Free Trade must be built on a basis of true freedom of trading, not in the tightly controlled channels of wealth as we have now - the trade off should be clear: either the benefits are free to flow to all or voters will turn against the opening of borders which is a requirement of Free Trade.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28434905</id>
	<title>Our Constitution begins with 'We the People.."</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245693660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What Ballmer is doing is directly against the people of the United States and in support of an international monopoly, Microsoft.  These kinds of actions by citizens supposedly of this country, the United States of America, by a citizen of this nation, Ballmer, must needs be equated with and called for what they are, and that is simply...Treason!  Since micro#$\%^#@ is registered as a corporation in the United States and since Ballmer is the CEO of that corporation, then the whole corporate structure is also treasonous and should be prosecuted as such.  Since this corporation is really kind of a company controlled by two men, Bill Gates and Paul Allen, the 'corporate veil' should also be pierced in this instance by the federal court and THOSE two 'worthies' should also be prosecuted as traitors inasmuch as they actively sought out this litiginous barrator and recruited him from his former post at Lotus (who remembers Lotus?).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What Ballmer is doing is directly against the people of the United States and in support of an international monopoly , Microsoft .
These kinds of actions by citizens supposedly of this country , the United States of America , by a citizen of this nation , Ballmer , must needs be equated with and called for what they are , and that is simply...Treason !
Since micro # $ \ % ^ # @ is registered as a corporation in the United States and since Ballmer is the CEO of that corporation , then the whole corporate structure is also treasonous and should be prosecuted as such .
Since this corporation is really kind of a company controlled by two men , Bill Gates and Paul Allen , the 'corporate veil ' should also be pierced in this instance by the federal court and THOSE two 'worthies ' should also be prosecuted as traitors inasmuch as they actively sought out this litiginous barrator and recruited him from his former post at Lotus ( who remembers Lotus ?
) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What Ballmer is doing is directly against the people of the United States and in support of an international monopoly, Microsoft.
These kinds of actions by citizens supposedly of this country, the United States of America, by a citizen of this nation, Ballmer, must needs be equated with and called for what they are, and that is simply...Treason!
Since micro#$\%^#@ is registered as a corporation in the United States and since Ballmer is the CEO of that corporation, then the whole corporate structure is also treasonous and should be prosecuted as such.
Since this corporation is really kind of a company controlled by two men, Bill Gates and Paul Allen, the 'corporate veil' should also be pierced in this instance by the federal court and THOSE two 'worthies' should also be prosecuted as traitors inasmuch as they actively sought out this litiginous barrator and recruited him from his former post at Lotus (who remembers Lotus?
).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28433117</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245681960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Whether you agree with the outcome or not, foreign labor has helped to reduce the price of many of the goods and services that westerners rely on every day.  India has allowed us to save $0.05, $5, $50, maybe $500 on a consumer goods at the cost of our manufacturing base.</p><p>The reason your typical Dell computer costs $400 is because they can ship part of the costs of support out to India.  The same is true of big-box retailers like Walmart selling t-shirts and teapots cranked out in Chinese, Indian, and Indonesian factories for substantially less than local boutiques like American Apparel that sell US-made goods.</p></div><p>Wow, that sounds like a really nice set-up.  A win-win, if you will.<br>Now if I had a job and $500...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Whether you agree with the outcome or not , foreign labor has helped to reduce the price of many of the goods and services that westerners rely on every day .
India has allowed us to save $ 0.05 , $ 5 , $ 50 , maybe $ 500 on a consumer goods at the cost of our manufacturing base.The reason your typical Dell computer costs $ 400 is because they can ship part of the costs of support out to India .
The same is true of big-box retailers like Walmart selling t-shirts and teapots cranked out in Chinese , Indian , and Indonesian factories for substantially less than local boutiques like American Apparel that sell US-made goods.Wow , that sounds like a really nice set-up .
A win-win , if you will.Now if I had a job and $ 500.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Whether you agree with the outcome or not, foreign labor has helped to reduce the price of many of the goods and services that westerners rely on every day.
India has allowed us to save $0.05, $5, $50, maybe $500 on a consumer goods at the cost of our manufacturing base.The reason your typical Dell computer costs $400 is because they can ship part of the costs of support out to India.
The same is true of big-box retailers like Walmart selling t-shirts and teapots cranked out in Chinese, Indian, and Indonesian factories for substantially less than local boutiques like American Apparel that sell US-made goods.Wow, that sounds like a really nice set-up.
A win-win, if you will.Now if I had a job and $500...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420193</id>
	<title>Indian Tech grads</title>
	<author>PeeShootr</author>
	<datestamp>1245678000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>More stereotypes for you:<br>

Most Indian tech grads are un-understandable.  <br>

Most Indian tech grads don't know how to read and implement a specification<br>

Most Indian tech grads don't shower enough.</htmltext>
<tokenext>More stereotypes for you : Most Indian tech grads are un-understandable .
Most Indian tech grads do n't know how to read and implement a specification Most Indian tech grads do n't shower enough .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>More stereotypes for you:

Most Indian tech grads are un-understandable.
Most Indian tech grads don't know how to read and implement a specification

Most Indian tech grads don't shower enough.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420257</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245678420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've actually had much same experience, only not with out sourcing but with Chinese and Indian programmers who have come to work my my company.  Though these programmers are very good with low level stuff, and have a good solid knowledge of the language, they also lack a lot of the higher level engineering skills.  For example, a Chinese trained co-worker of mine looked at me like I had 3 heads when I said he shouldn't add audio code to my animation system for a game when there was a proper method already there to add the features needed through a layer of abstraction that would prevent unneeded dependencies.</p><p>I never hear any of these guys talk/ask about the best way to structure their code like the local talent does.  It seems to me that though local talent isn't interested in the low level stuff, their talent isn't interested in the high level.  That would be why you eventually end up with unmaintainable crap that got built very quickly and cheaply.  The "very quickly and cheaply" would also be why management loves to outsource, but then find themselves in trouble when all that bad engineering catches up to them.</p><p>In the end, BOTH sets of programmers need to get their shit together.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've actually had much same experience , only not with out sourcing but with Chinese and Indian programmers who have come to work my my company .
Though these programmers are very good with low level stuff , and have a good solid knowledge of the language , they also lack a lot of the higher level engineering skills .
For example , a Chinese trained co-worker of mine looked at me like I had 3 heads when I said he should n't add audio code to my animation system for a game when there was a proper method already there to add the features needed through a layer of abstraction that would prevent unneeded dependencies.I never hear any of these guys talk/ask about the best way to structure their code like the local talent does .
It seems to me that though local talent is n't interested in the low level stuff , their talent is n't interested in the high level .
That would be why you eventually end up with unmaintainable crap that got built very quickly and cheaply .
The " very quickly and cheaply " would also be why management loves to outsource , but then find themselves in trouble when all that bad engineering catches up to them.In the end , BOTH sets of programmers need to get their shit together .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've actually had much same experience, only not with out sourcing but with Chinese and Indian programmers who have come to work my my company.
Though these programmers are very good with low level stuff, and have a good solid knowledge of the language, they also lack a lot of the higher level engineering skills.
For example, a Chinese trained co-worker of mine looked at me like I had 3 heads when I said he shouldn't add audio code to my animation system for a game when there was a proper method already there to add the features needed through a layer of abstraction that would prevent unneeded dependencies.I never hear any of these guys talk/ask about the best way to structure their code like the local talent does.
It seems to me that though local talent isn't interested in the low level stuff, their talent isn't interested in the high level.
That would be why you eventually end up with unmaintainable crap that got built very quickly and cheaply.
The "very quickly and cheaply" would also be why management loves to outsource, but then find themselves in trouble when all that bad engineering catches up to them.In the end, BOTH sets of programmers need to get their shit together.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417815</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245701040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's the thing--- it hasn't.</p><p>Drugs-- $5.00 here, $0.10 there<br>DVD's-- $19.99 here, $2.49 there (and in reality about<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.50 at the local markets-- but $2.49 full copyrighted retail).<br>Clothing-- $1 or less there--- $19.99 here.</p><p>There is *no* reason the clothes, drugs, movies, songs, etc. etc. should have that extreme of a price difference.<br>In a normal capitalistic society, we would be allowed to buy the 10 cent pills there and import them here and resell them for 20 cents.</p><p>We have all this dvd regionalized shit, and protected trade zones, and other restrictions on free trade.</p><p>Our declining wages would not matter so much if we really were getting the benefits of free trade.</p><p>But the wealth here is literally being pumped out of the country- and the jobs too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's the thing--- it has n't.Drugs-- $ 5.00 here , $ 0.10 thereDVD 's-- $ 19.99 here , $ 2.49 there ( and in reality about .50 at the local markets-- but $ 2.49 full copyrighted retail ) .Clothing-- $ 1 or less there--- $ 19.99 here.There is * no * reason the clothes , drugs , movies , songs , etc .
etc. should have that extreme of a price difference.In a normal capitalistic society , we would be allowed to buy the 10 cent pills there and import them here and resell them for 20 cents.We have all this dvd regionalized shit , and protected trade zones , and other restrictions on free trade.Our declining wages would not matter so much if we really were getting the benefits of free trade.But the wealth here is literally being pumped out of the country- and the jobs too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's the thing--- it hasn't.Drugs-- $5.00 here, $0.10 thereDVD's-- $19.99 here, $2.49 there (and in reality about .50 at the local markets-- but $2.49 full copyrighted retail).Clothing-- $1 or less there--- $19.99 here.There is *no* reason the clothes, drugs, movies, songs, etc.
etc. should have that extreme of a price difference.In a normal capitalistic society, we would be allowed to buy the 10 cent pills there and import them here and resell them for 20 cents.We have all this dvd regionalized shit, and protected trade zones, and other restrictions on free trade.Our declining wages would not matter so much if we really were getting the benefits of free trade.But the wealth here is literally being pumped out of the country- and the jobs too.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420625</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245680160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The rest of the 1st world doesn't mind though - we'll be glad to take the USAs spot as patron of the world's best &amp; brightest - please do stop your H1-B programme.</p></div><p>I imagine that the quality of code currently expunged by India sweatshop coders will reflect itself into Microsoft's OS (more than it already has, mind you). That being the case, I'm sure that we would quickly see a move to a better OS...one that I can actually run most of the programs without a BSOD. There are already enough security risks out there than you can shake a stick at.</p><p>A move to India would be Microsoft's downfall, and they know it. Don't you think they review the code India sends them? Ballmer - The God of MS is just throwing around idle threats to the American Gov't. In the end even he knows he can't afford to move operations to India.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The rest of the 1st world does n't mind though - we 'll be glad to take the USAs spot as patron of the world 's best &amp; brightest - please do stop your H1-B programme.I imagine that the quality of code currently expunged by India sweatshop coders will reflect itself into Microsoft 's OS ( more than it already has , mind you ) .
That being the case , I 'm sure that we would quickly see a move to a better OS...one that I can actually run most of the programs without a BSOD .
There are already enough security risks out there than you can shake a stick at.A move to India would be Microsoft 's downfall , and they know it .
Do n't you think they review the code India sends them ?
Ballmer - The God of MS is just throwing around idle threats to the American Gov't .
In the end even he knows he ca n't afford to move operations to India .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The rest of the 1st world doesn't mind though - we'll be glad to take the USAs spot as patron of the world's best &amp; brightest - please do stop your H1-B programme.I imagine that the quality of code currently expunged by India sweatshop coders will reflect itself into Microsoft's OS (more than it already has, mind you).
That being the case, I'm sure that we would quickly see a move to a better OS...one that I can actually run most of the programs without a BSOD.
There are already enough security risks out there than you can shake a stick at.A move to India would be Microsoft's downfall, and they know it.
Don't you think they review the code India sends them?
Ballmer - The God of MS is just throwing around idle threats to the American Gov't.
In the end even he knows he can't afford to move operations to India.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418517</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422629</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>ThrowAwaySociety</author>
	<datestamp>1245687000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list.</p></div><p>This gets modded interesting? I guess because there's no <a href="http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html" title="eeoc.gov">"-1, Illegal" mod.</a> [eeoc.gov]</p><p>Still, I appreciate your honesty.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list.This gets modded interesting ?
I guess because there 's no " -1 , Illegal " mod .
[ eeoc.gov ] Still , I appreciate your honesty .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list.This gets modded interesting?
I guess because there's no "-1, Illegal" mod.
[eeoc.gov]Still, I appreciate your honesty.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420189</id>
	<title>what a bunch of bs</title>
	<author>anonymous9991</author>
	<datestamp>1245677940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have worked at 2 companies now and at both companies the indian workers did a much much worse job than the us workers. This guy is way off.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have worked at 2 companies now and at both companies the indian workers did a much much worse job than the us workers .
This guy is way off .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have worked at 2 companies now and at both companies the indian workers did a much much worse job than the us workers.
This guy is way off.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421505</id>
	<title>Horror Story About Outsourcing</title>
	<author>KraftDinner</author>
	<datestamp>1245683400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>At the software company I work at, upper management had the fabulous idea of using an outsourcing company to rework parts of our site not business critical. Six months later, one of my fellow developers here decides to check up on how the project is coming along. To his shock and complete horror, he discovers the entire project has been done in VB6. Why the requirements weren't stated better, I don't know. They were obviously taken off the project and I don't think we'll ever be working with them again. Now we're stuck with a nightmare project to complete and for many years to come, a nightmare project to maintain. As if we don't already have enough VB6 code to maintain.</htmltext>
<tokenext>At the software company I work at , upper management had the fabulous idea of using an outsourcing company to rework parts of our site not business critical .
Six months later , one of my fellow developers here decides to check up on how the project is coming along .
To his shock and complete horror , he discovers the entire project has been done in VB6 .
Why the requirements were n't stated better , I do n't know .
They were obviously taken off the project and I do n't think we 'll ever be working with them again .
Now we 're stuck with a nightmare project to complete and for many years to come , a nightmare project to maintain .
As if we do n't already have enough VB6 code to maintain .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At the software company I work at, upper management had the fabulous idea of using an outsourcing company to rework parts of our site not business critical.
Six months later, one of my fellow developers here decides to check up on how the project is coming along.
To his shock and complete horror, he discovers the entire project has been done in VB6.
Why the requirements weren't stated better, I don't know.
They were obviously taken off the project and I don't think we'll ever be working with them again.
Now we're stuck with a nightmare project to complete and for many years to come, a nightmare project to maintain.
As if we don't already have enough VB6 code to maintain.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418197</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245661260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Prices are based on what people will pay, not what it costs to produce, and the difference goes straight into the pockets of the greedy assholes. That difference is the cost of human rights.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Prices are based on what people will pay , not what it costs to produce , and the difference goes straight into the pockets of the greedy assholes .
That difference is the cost of human rights .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Prices are based on what people will pay, not what it costs to produce, and the difference goes straight into the pockets of the greedy assholes.
That difference is the cost of human rights.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417665</id>
	<title>Gee, I'm sure he's completely objective</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245613440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Huh, a businessman in an article (Indian outsourcing) bashing his competitors (USA techies).  Nope, no way he's biased or trying to pitch his company, nosiree, completely objective...</p><p>Next up, comments by Steve Ballmer on why Windows is better than MacOS and the Ford Family will join us to discuss their views on the best automobiles.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Huh , a businessman in an article ( Indian outsourcing ) bashing his competitors ( USA techies ) .
Nope , no way he 's biased or trying to pitch his company , nosiree , completely objective...Next up , comments by Steve Ballmer on why Windows is better than MacOS and the Ford Family will join us to discuss their views on the best automobiles .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Huh, a businessman in an article (Indian outsourcing) bashing his competitors (USA techies).
Nope, no way he's biased or trying to pitch his company, nosiree, completely objective...Next up, comments by Steve Ballmer on why Windows is better than MacOS and the Ford Family will join us to discuss their views on the best automobiles.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245612300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Whether you agree with the outcome or not, foreign labor has helped to reduce the price of many of the goods and services that westerners rely on every day.  India has allowed us to save $0.05, $5, $50, maybe $500 on a consumer goods at the cost of our manufacturing base.</p><p>The reason your typical Dell computer costs $400 is because they can ship part of the costs of support out to India.  The same is true of big-box retailers like Walmart selling t-shirts and teapots cranked out in Chinese, Indian, and Indonesian factories for substantially less than local boutiques like American Apparel that sell US-made goods.   Part of what you're paying for is branding, distribution chain inefficiency, fashion, etc. but it's important not to discount the labor cost--no matter how small--because that's all part of the race to the bottom.</p><p>If you don't like outsourced IT for any reason--"I don't like China's stance on Tibet" is as good a reason as "I find their accent makes resolving a problem over the telephone difficult"--then don't buy from companies that use it.  You'll probably have to pay more for it, but nobody said having principles and sticking to them wouldn't require some sacrifices.  Chances are good you'll find it's not as expensive as you think and a lot of times you'll end up with a better product/service because of it.</p><p>The masses have spoken: saving a few bucks is worth it.  If you don't like it--vote with your dollars and encourage your friends and family to do the same. Arguing for government regulation so that american workers don't' have to be competitive is ridiculous.  Screaming nonsense like "India hasn't done a damned thing for the USA" is rediculous when you consider the role workers in developing nations play in producing the products that fuel every aspect of our lives.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Whether you agree with the outcome or not , foreign labor has helped to reduce the price of many of the goods and services that westerners rely on every day .
India has allowed us to save $ 0.05 , $ 5 , $ 50 , maybe $ 500 on a consumer goods at the cost of our manufacturing base.The reason your typical Dell computer costs $ 400 is because they can ship part of the costs of support out to India .
The same is true of big-box retailers like Walmart selling t-shirts and teapots cranked out in Chinese , Indian , and Indonesian factories for substantially less than local boutiques like American Apparel that sell US-made goods .
Part of what you 're paying for is branding , distribution chain inefficiency , fashion , etc .
but it 's important not to discount the labor cost--no matter how small--because that 's all part of the race to the bottom.If you do n't like outsourced IT for any reason-- " I do n't like China 's stance on Tibet " is as good a reason as " I find their accent makes resolving a problem over the telephone difficult " --then do n't buy from companies that use it .
You 'll probably have to pay more for it , but nobody said having principles and sticking to them would n't require some sacrifices .
Chances are good you 'll find it 's not as expensive as you think and a lot of times you 'll end up with a better product/service because of it.The masses have spoken : saving a few bucks is worth it .
If you do n't like it--vote with your dollars and encourage your friends and family to do the same .
Arguing for government regulation so that american workers do n't ' have to be competitive is ridiculous .
Screaming nonsense like " India has n't done a damned thing for the USA " is rediculous when you consider the role workers in developing nations play in producing the products that fuel every aspect of our lives .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Whether you agree with the outcome or not, foreign labor has helped to reduce the price of many of the goods and services that westerners rely on every day.
India has allowed us to save $0.05, $5, $50, maybe $500 on a consumer goods at the cost of our manufacturing base.The reason your typical Dell computer costs $400 is because they can ship part of the costs of support out to India.
The same is true of big-box retailers like Walmart selling t-shirts and teapots cranked out in Chinese, Indian, and Indonesian factories for substantially less than local boutiques like American Apparel that sell US-made goods.
Part of what you're paying for is branding, distribution chain inefficiency, fashion, etc.
but it's important not to discount the labor cost--no matter how small--because that's all part of the race to the bottom.If you don't like outsourced IT for any reason--"I don't like China's stance on Tibet" is as good a reason as "I find their accent makes resolving a problem over the telephone difficult"--then don't buy from companies that use it.
You'll probably have to pay more for it, but nobody said having principles and sticking to them wouldn't require some sacrifices.
Chances are good you'll find it's not as expensive as you think and a lot of times you'll end up with a better product/service because of it.The masses have spoken: saving a few bucks is worth it.
If you don't like it--vote with your dollars and encourage your friends and family to do the same.
Arguing for government regulation so that american workers don't' have to be competitive is ridiculous.
Screaming nonsense like "India hasn't done a damned thing for the USA" is rediculous when you consider the role workers in developing nations play in producing the products that fuel every aspect of our lives.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417399</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418019</id>
	<title>I'd wager that ...</title>
	<author>Ihlosi</author>
	<datestamp>1245702960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... "most" Indian tech grade are unemployable, too, but for different reasons. (if you want a good laugh, check out the discussion boards for various microcontrollers. Not a day passes without someone posting a "please solve my homework/exam/project for me, it's URGENT" posting).</p><p>However, since India produces a lot more tech grads, there's still plenty of employable (and quite a few outright excellent) ones left to fill the existing positions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... " most " Indian tech grade are unemployable , too , but for different reasons .
( if you want a good laugh , check out the discussion boards for various microcontrollers .
Not a day passes without someone posting a " please solve my homework/exam/project for me , it 's URGENT " posting ) .However , since India produces a lot more tech grads , there 's still plenty of employable ( and quite a few outright excellent ) ones left to fill the existing positions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... "most" Indian tech grade are unemployable, too, but for different reasons.
(if you want a good laugh, check out the discussion boards for various microcontrollers.
Not a day passes without someone posting a "please solve my homework/exam/project for me, it's URGENT" posting).However, since India produces a lot more tech grads, there's still plenty of employable (and quite a few outright excellent) ones left to fill the existing positions.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420567</id>
	<title>Re:Unemployable?</title>
	<author>francium de neobie</author>
	<datestamp>1245679980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Do you seriously believe people without running water would go to universities, learn programming and work in front of computers all day? Shouldn't these people be... hmm... fighting for water and food all day?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do you seriously believe people without running water would go to universities , learn programming and work in front of computers all day ?
Should n't these people be... hmm... fighting for water and food all day ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do you seriously believe people without running water would go to universities, learn programming and work in front of computers all day?
Shouldn't these people be... hmm... fighting for water and food all day?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417645</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420121</id>
	<title>Investigate HCL for EEOC Violations?</title>
	<author>aoheno</author>
	<datestamp>1245677520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Sounds like an investigation of HCL is due. If his hiring mirrors what is being said, HCL may be in violation of EEOC laws by discriminating against Americans.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sounds like an investigation of HCL is due .
If his hiring mirrors what is being said , HCL may be in violation of EEOC laws by discriminating against Americans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sounds like an investigation of HCL is due.
If his hiring mirrors what is being said, HCL may be in violation of EEOC laws by discriminating against Americans.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418331</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>D-Cypell</author>
	<datestamp>1245662580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"(Yes I'm sure there's some top quality code coming out of India, I doubt most of it is written by the sorts of companies in this articlee)."</p><p>I am currently living and working in India in the software industry. Not on outsourcing but for a company building their own products using Indian developers.</p><p>I can tell you that there is some talent here, but it is *shockingly* hard to find. Good talent is hard to find anywhere, but sadly the Indian education system seems to be gearing itself up on a 'quantity over quality' basis. After interviewing your 5th 'senior developer' of the day that cannot tell you how to iterate over the contents of a list in their primary programming language, it takes all the effort you can muster not to jump out of the nearest window.</p><p>The practice of dumbing down education due to a shortage of available graduates is ultimately very self-defeating, but it is happening, and I suspect that it is India, *not* the west who is at the head of that curve.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" ( Yes I 'm sure there 's some top quality code coming out of India , I doubt most of it is written by the sorts of companies in this articlee ) .
" I am currently living and working in India in the software industry .
Not on outsourcing but for a company building their own products using Indian developers.I can tell you that there is some talent here , but it is * shockingly * hard to find .
Good talent is hard to find anywhere , but sadly the Indian education system seems to be gearing itself up on a 'quantity over quality ' basis .
After interviewing your 5th 'senior developer ' of the day that can not tell you how to iterate over the contents of a list in their primary programming language , it takes all the effort you can muster not to jump out of the nearest window.The practice of dumbing down education due to a shortage of available graduates is ultimately very self-defeating , but it is happening , and I suspect that it is India , * not * the west who is at the head of that curve .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"(Yes I'm sure there's some top quality code coming out of India, I doubt most of it is written by the sorts of companies in this articlee).
"I am currently living and working in India in the software industry.
Not on outsourcing but for a company building their own products using Indian developers.I can tell you that there is some talent here, but it is *shockingly* hard to find.
Good talent is hard to find anywhere, but sadly the Indian education system seems to be gearing itself up on a 'quantity over quality' basis.
After interviewing your 5th 'senior developer' of the day that cannot tell you how to iterate over the contents of a list in their primary programming language, it takes all the effort you can muster not to jump out of the nearest window.The practice of dumbing down education due to a shortage of available graduates is ultimately very self-defeating, but it is happening, and I suspect that it is India, *not* the west who is at the head of that curve.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418499</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245664200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well outsourcing is one thing but when cheerful CEO's like Balmer asking for more H1B's during the worst slump since the great depression. What do you make out of that? Well it aint the fact that US educated tech guys are unemployable due to their skill but because of the cost hieing them.</p><p>I'm also sorry to say but one thing that most third world countries has in common in corruption, it's very easy to buy your self a degree. Well I assume I'm not the first one to bounce into someone claiming a master in CS while still having problems with simple things such as percentage calculations. Now, I'm sure that a lot of the students in say India don't use that kind of methods to get their degree. But I have yet to hear any India university getting the same type of reputation as say MIT, Oxford etc for producing top notch students..</p><p>I'm pretty sure that all of this is just one thing and that ain't knowledge it's just money...</p><p>Cheers..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well outsourcing is one thing but when cheerful CEO 's like Balmer asking for more H1B 's during the worst slump since the great depression .
What do you make out of that ?
Well it aint the fact that US educated tech guys are unemployable due to their skill but because of the cost hieing them.I 'm also sorry to say but one thing that most third world countries has in common in corruption , it 's very easy to buy your self a degree .
Well I assume I 'm not the first one to bounce into someone claiming a master in CS while still having problems with simple things such as percentage calculations .
Now , I 'm sure that a lot of the students in say India do n't use that kind of methods to get their degree .
But I have yet to hear any India university getting the same type of reputation as say MIT , Oxford etc for producing top notch students..I 'm pretty sure that all of this is just one thing and that ai n't knowledge it 's just money...Cheers. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well outsourcing is one thing but when cheerful CEO's like Balmer asking for more H1B's during the worst slump since the great depression.
What do you make out of that?
Well it aint the fact that US educated tech guys are unemployable due to their skill but because of the cost hieing them.I'm also sorry to say but one thing that most third world countries has in common in corruption, it's very easy to buy your self a degree.
Well I assume I'm not the first one to bounce into someone claiming a master in CS while still having problems with simple things such as percentage calculations.
Now, I'm sure that a lot of the students in say India don't use that kind of methods to get their degree.
But I have yet to hear any India university getting the same type of reputation as say MIT, Oxford etc for producing top notch students..I'm pretty sure that all of this is just one thing and that ain't knowledge it's just money...Cheers..</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424433</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245693300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The fact that this is modded "funny" shows how many people actually read past the first sentence.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The fact that this is modded " funny " shows how many people actually read past the first sentence .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The fact that this is modded "funny" shows how many people actually read past the first sentence.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419487</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419245</id>
	<title>Re:...News at 11.</title>
	<author>tgd</author>
	<datestamp>1245670680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well his motivation for saying it doesn't negate what he says.</p><p>I've, honestly, found the same thing. In an economy like this, with so many GOOD people looking, you get 500+ resumes per position that comes open.</p><p>In my recent experience, the VAST majority of recent grads don't have knowledge or work ethic commensurate with their level of experience. Best case you get someone who is hard to manage, worst case you get someone who can't be relied on for even basic things.</p><p>I can't pretend to know why that is, although I'm sure I can come up with some theories, but the fact is its a VERY reasonable optimization of a large stack of resumes to simply toss recent grads. It sucks for the minuscule number who  aren't like that, but I don't have time to phone screen a hundred people to find that one. (Although a recent observation suggests to me that simply tossing the resumes of a recent grad from any school I've heard of would help -- the bigger the name, the more the grad seems to think of themselves...)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well his motivation for saying it does n't negate what he says.I 've , honestly , found the same thing .
In an economy like this , with so many GOOD people looking , you get 500 + resumes per position that comes open.In my recent experience , the VAST majority of recent grads do n't have knowledge or work ethic commensurate with their level of experience .
Best case you get someone who is hard to manage , worst case you get someone who ca n't be relied on for even basic things.I ca n't pretend to know why that is , although I 'm sure I can come up with some theories , but the fact is its a VERY reasonable optimization of a large stack of resumes to simply toss recent grads .
It sucks for the minuscule number who are n't like that , but I do n't have time to phone screen a hundred people to find that one .
( Although a recent observation suggests to me that simply tossing the resumes of a recent grad from any school I 've heard of would help -- the bigger the name , the more the grad seems to think of themselves... )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well his motivation for saying it doesn't negate what he says.I've, honestly, found the same thing.
In an economy like this, with so many GOOD people looking, you get 500+ resumes per position that comes open.In my recent experience, the VAST majority of recent grads don't have knowledge or work ethic commensurate with their level of experience.
Best case you get someone who is hard to manage, worst case you get someone who can't be relied on for even basic things.I can't pretend to know why that is, although I'm sure I can come up with some theories, but the fact is its a VERY reasonable optimization of a large stack of resumes to simply toss recent grads.
It sucks for the minuscule number who  aren't like that, but I don't have time to phone screen a hundred people to find that one.
(Although a recent observation suggests to me that simply tossing the resumes of a recent grad from any school I've heard of would help -- the bigger the name, the more the grad seems to think of themselves...)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417493</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417923</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>misterbrw</author>
	<datestamp>1245701880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Short term thinking is killing America.

Yes many products and services are cheaper because of the ability of business to outsource labor and I do see the advantages in that.  I do believe in free trade but both parties should benefit to similar degrees.

Let's take China

Free trade has given them:
The worlds third largest economy, dramatically increased manufacturing capabilities, a well trained work force, and much more political power (think financing U.S. Debt)


Let's take the U.S., we've got cheaper goods (many of which are non-essential non-durable goods like TV, and Microwaves), the ability to run up a huge debt, and stagnant wage growth.


Also note that consumer goods are cheaper, but things like energy, education, and health care are more expensive.


So in the long term, how much is the U.S. benefiting?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Short term thinking is killing America .
Yes many products and services are cheaper because of the ability of business to outsource labor and I do see the advantages in that .
I do believe in free trade but both parties should benefit to similar degrees .
Let 's take China Free trade has given them : The worlds third largest economy , dramatically increased manufacturing capabilities , a well trained work force , and much more political power ( think financing U.S. Debt ) Let 's take the U.S. , we 've got cheaper goods ( many of which are non-essential non-durable goods like TV , and Microwaves ) , the ability to run up a huge debt , and stagnant wage growth .
Also note that consumer goods are cheaper , but things like energy , education , and health care are more expensive .
So in the long term , how much is the U.S. benefiting ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Short term thinking is killing America.
Yes many products and services are cheaper because of the ability of business to outsource labor and I do see the advantages in that.
I do believe in free trade but both parties should benefit to similar degrees.
Let's take China

Free trade has given them:
The worlds third largest economy, dramatically increased manufacturing capabilities, a well trained work force, and much more political power (think financing U.S. Debt)


Let's take the U.S., we've got cheaper goods (many of which are non-essential non-durable goods like TV, and Microwaves), the ability to run up a huge debt, and stagnant wage growth.
Also note that consumer goods are cheaper, but things like energy, education, and health care are more expensive.
So in the long term, how much is the U.S. benefiting?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425545</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Yhippa</author>
	<datestamp>1245696960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am not having the same problems as a lot of people are I guess but one thing I do like about Slashdot is that the moderation system is the cat's meow.  I have to filter through so many inane comments (even with thumbs-up and thumbs-down) over there.  I came back to Slashdot after using Digg for a while.  The main problem I have with Digg is the mob mentality.  It seems here that even a minority voice can get heard.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am not having the same problems as a lot of people are I guess but one thing I do like about Slashdot is that the moderation system is the cat 's meow .
I have to filter through so many inane comments ( even with thumbs-up and thumbs-down ) over there .
I came back to Slashdot after using Digg for a while .
The main problem I have with Digg is the mob mentality .
It seems here that even a minority voice can get heard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am not having the same problems as a lot of people are I guess but one thing I do like about Slashdot is that the moderation system is the cat's meow.
I have to filter through so many inane comments (even with thumbs-up and thumbs-down) over there.
I came back to Slashdot after using Digg for a while.
The main problem I have with Digg is the mob mentality.
It seems here that even a minority voice can get heard.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419487</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418285</id>
	<title>Not every IT engineer...</title>
	<author>tehtrex</author>
	<datestamp>1245662220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>...is a spoiled fsckstick who thinks he's entitled to a $100k salary right out of college simply for existing. During my time in this industry, I've worked with the some really good engineers. They were the ones who were willing to go twenty extra miles when you only asked for one. Unfortunately, they were also the ones who wanted to know business and technical justifications for their assignments (to the consternation of business majors everywhere, who all seem to simply be lemmings that do what they're told because they were told).
<br> <br>
I've worked at way too many companies where IT Engineers were expected to be brilliant and insightful in the field or in design meetings but leave their brain at the door when it came to bullshit company politics, outright lies told by executives, and the utterly unbalanced compensation plans forced down their throats by companies.
<br> <br>
Fsck that shit. I spoke up at my last company about all of these things and was told to STFU a number of times. Right before I quit, I spent two months putting together a 50 page reorganization plan (in consultation with middle and senior management across the company) in response to the internal griping about inefficiency and mismanagement in the consulting practice of which I was a member. This document was reviewed and discussed several times a week, and everyone was 1000\% on board with my suggestions.
<br> <br>
I finally quit when I presented my final draft to the same people that I had developed it with and the "official" response was that they thought the document was full of good ideas that would definitely resolve the problems we were facing with relatively little effort, but unfortunately many of the ideas were very radical for the culture of the organization and nobody had the fscking balls to stand up for what was right and stop pissing away money that could be paid to the engineers on lost contracts and wasted time due to territorial pissing matches.
<br> <br>
The fact that American Engineers are independent thinkers who will ask their management to justify why they should work 80 hours in a row to meet an arbitrary deadline is a good thing. If you want the IT equivalent of a grocery bagger then please, by all means, outsource your work to Accenture so they can pay some poor Indian bastard $5 to churn out code that doesn't even compile correctly.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...is a spoiled fsckstick who thinks he 's entitled to a $ 100k salary right out of college simply for existing .
During my time in this industry , I 've worked with the some really good engineers .
They were the ones who were willing to go twenty extra miles when you only asked for one .
Unfortunately , they were also the ones who wanted to know business and technical justifications for their assignments ( to the consternation of business majors everywhere , who all seem to simply be lemmings that do what they 're told because they were told ) .
I 've worked at way too many companies where IT Engineers were expected to be brilliant and insightful in the field or in design meetings but leave their brain at the door when it came to bullshit company politics , outright lies told by executives , and the utterly unbalanced compensation plans forced down their throats by companies .
Fsck that shit .
I spoke up at my last company about all of these things and was told to STFU a number of times .
Right before I quit , I spent two months putting together a 50 page reorganization plan ( in consultation with middle and senior management across the company ) in response to the internal griping about inefficiency and mismanagement in the consulting practice of which I was a member .
This document was reviewed and discussed several times a week , and everyone was 1000 \ % on board with my suggestions .
I finally quit when I presented my final draft to the same people that I had developed it with and the " official " response was that they thought the document was full of good ideas that would definitely resolve the problems we were facing with relatively little effort , but unfortunately many of the ideas were very radical for the culture of the organization and nobody had the fscking balls to stand up for what was right and stop pissing away money that could be paid to the engineers on lost contracts and wasted time due to territorial pissing matches .
The fact that American Engineers are independent thinkers who will ask their management to justify why they should work 80 hours in a row to meet an arbitrary deadline is a good thing .
If you want the IT equivalent of a grocery bagger then please , by all means , outsource your work to Accenture so they can pay some poor Indian bastard $ 5 to churn out code that does n't even compile correctly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...is a spoiled fsckstick who thinks he's entitled to a $100k salary right out of college simply for existing.
During my time in this industry, I've worked with the some really good engineers.
They were the ones who were willing to go twenty extra miles when you only asked for one.
Unfortunately, they were also the ones who wanted to know business and technical justifications for their assignments (to the consternation of business majors everywhere, who all seem to simply be lemmings that do what they're told because they were told).
I've worked at way too many companies where IT Engineers were expected to be brilliant and insightful in the field or in design meetings but leave their brain at the door when it came to bullshit company politics, outright lies told by executives, and the utterly unbalanced compensation plans forced down their throats by companies.
Fsck that shit.
I spoke up at my last company about all of these things and was told to STFU a number of times.
Right before I quit, I spent two months putting together a 50 page reorganization plan (in consultation with middle and senior management across the company) in response to the internal griping about inefficiency and mismanagement in the consulting practice of which I was a member.
This document was reviewed and discussed several times a week, and everyone was 1000\% on board with my suggestions.
I finally quit when I presented my final draft to the same people that I had developed it with and the "official" response was that they thought the document was full of good ideas that would definitely resolve the problems we were facing with relatively little effort, but unfortunately many of the ideas were very radical for the culture of the organization and nobody had the fscking balls to stand up for what was right and stop pissing away money that could be paid to the engineers on lost contracts and wasted time due to territorial pissing matches.
The fact that American Engineers are independent thinkers who will ask their management to justify why they should work 80 hours in a row to meet an arbitrary deadline is a good thing.
If you want the IT equivalent of a grocery bagger then please, by all means, outsource your work to Accenture so they can pay some poor Indian bastard $5 to churn out code that doesn't even compile correctly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418481</id>
	<title>Unemployable, or spoiled?</title>
	<author>hessian</author>
	<datestamp>1245664020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ignoring his annoying generalization:</p><p>Does he mean American grads are "spoiled," in that we don't learn rote process because there are other options and we have high expectations?</p><p>In a relative sense, his observation may be correct, but what he did not do was demonstrate the necessity of this more rigorous process in producing high-quality code.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ignoring his annoying generalization : Does he mean American grads are " spoiled , " in that we do n't learn rote process because there are other options and we have high expectations ? In a relative sense , his observation may be correct , but what he did not do was demonstrate the necessity of this more rigorous process in producing high-quality code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ignoring his annoying generalization:Does he mean American grads are "spoiled," in that we don't learn rote process because there are other options and we have high expectations?In a relative sense, his observation may be correct, but what he did not do was demonstrate the necessity of this more rigorous process in producing high-quality code.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425503</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245696900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am not suprised that Microsoft is happy with this result. The buggiest and poorest excuse for software ever to plauge the surface of the earth! The fact that the chair thrower wants to save a buck while forcing this crap up the world rectal track just shows the company's commitment to quality (NONE). The same could be said of GM or insert to big to fail compnay name here.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am not suprised that Microsoft is happy with this result .
The buggiest and poorest excuse for software ever to plauge the surface of the earth !
The fact that the chair thrower wants to save a buck while forcing this crap up the world rectal track just shows the company 's commitment to quality ( NONE ) .
The same could be said of GM or insert to big to fail compnay name here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am not suprised that Microsoft is happy with this result.
The buggiest and poorest excuse for software ever to plauge the surface of the earth!
The fact that the chair thrower wants to save a buck while forcing this crap up the world rectal track just shows the company's commitment to quality (NONE).
The same could be said of GM or insert to big to fail compnay name here.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425481</id>
	<title>Get the IRS into this.</title>
	<author>scharkalvin</author>
	<datestamp>1245696780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What the government should do is require US companies outsourcing work that<br>could (should) be done by US citizens to owe payroll tax to the IRS as if<br>the foreign workers were paying US income tax.  IE: by outsourcing US jobs,<br>US companies are DEFRAUDING the IRS of tax money.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What the government should do is require US companies outsourcing work thatcould ( should ) be done by US citizens to owe payroll tax to the IRS as ifthe foreign workers were paying US income tax .
IE : by outsourcing US jobs,US companies are DEFRAUDING the IRS of tax money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What the government should do is require US companies outsourcing work thatcould (should) be done by US citizens to owe payroll tax to the IRS as ifthe foreign workers were paying US income tax.
IE: by outsourcing US jobs,US companies are DEFRAUDING the IRS of tax money.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419483</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Targon</author>
	<datestamp>1245672780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You clearly have not understood the reason for things being priced the way they are, but economics is something that is not understood well.</p><p>When you have a distribution channel that costs a lot, something COULD start at $1, and end up at $50 by the time it gets to the store.</p><p>First up, and if you have had to put gas in your car/truck you would know this, it costs money to transport goods.    You also need to pay people to do the transportation.</p><p>Before moving on, you then need to look at how much it costs to pay people.    If employees need to make at least $40,000/year in order for them to survive, then you need to pay those wages.    The cost of living is much higher in the USA than it is in many of these countries, even for the same standard of living, so you have to understand that basic fact.   Food costs more, housing costs more, and there are very few low-cost places to live in many places.    When on the road, people can not sleep at home, so staying in a hotel/motel, even a cheap one will add to the cost.    So, it costs money to survive, and companies MUST pay enough for employees to survive on, or those employees will continually be looking for another job or a second job.</p><p>On a slight tangent, this is why the government really does need to spend money to upgrade the infrastructure.    A high-speed rail line that can travel at 200+ miles per hour would help reduce the costs of transportation of goods, and we don't have those in this country.    People complain when anyone in government pushes for a high speed rail line to be built because it costs money to do it as well.</p><p>Ok, back on the subject at hand.   So, transportation costs a lot.    People don't live rent free, and in many places, the cost of living for the retail worker isn't much lower than that of people in a higher tier job.   So, if rent costs $1000/month(Long Island, NY is an expensive place), people really need at least $2000/month just to survive since people do not live near where they work.    You also need to have SOME markup just to cover the cost of running the business, rent, utilities, employee benefits, etc...</p><p>So, how many DVDs and CDs need to be sold each day to cover the costs of doing business?    The business owner also needs to be able to survive, so even at a bare minimum, the cost of living is behind EVERYTHING when it comes down to it.</p><p>So, even if you ate only ramen, drank water, and such, how much would it cost you each month, including your car payment, gas, utilities, EVERYTHING.    There are some places in the USA that are cheaper to live, but not everyone lives in a low-cost area.    If you want to see retail stores that sell items like CDs and DVDs, the owners of those businesses need to live too, so how much do you think it costs for THEM?</p><p>DVD regions and such are there to help reduce illegal duplication.</p><p>Oh, and when it comes to going TO the movies, the movie theater owners need to pay the taxes or lease prices, employees, plus the costs for utilities and such.    If they lease, the lease prices may be much higher than you may realize.</p><p>So, there is a reason for things being expensive.   The manufacturing being outsourced is a reason for some of the unemployment problems, but the general cost of living, and the fact that the government keeps pumping money into the large corporations(which keep sending jobs to other countries anyway) rather than working to help reduce the cost of living is the long term problem.</p><p>If you want to see jobs brought back into the country, we need to start by promoting manufacturing being brought back to this country.    The only way for that to happen is for a major shift in attitude toward manufacturing in this country and by offering almost a 0 percent tax on manufacturing facilities(since employees will be paying taxes, it would help in this economy).    Businesses also need to be willing(if possible) to reduce how much they charge to others.    Basically, it would be an across the board agreement to drop prices by 10 to 20 percent, and that would really help.    If your own expenses were to go down by 10 percent, then if you were paid 10 percent less, you would be living the same way, but the prices overall would be lower, and the value of the dollar would go up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You clearly have not understood the reason for things being priced the way they are , but economics is something that is not understood well.When you have a distribution channel that costs a lot , something COULD start at $ 1 , and end up at $ 50 by the time it gets to the store.First up , and if you have had to put gas in your car/truck you would know this , it costs money to transport goods .
You also need to pay people to do the transportation.Before moving on , you then need to look at how much it costs to pay people .
If employees need to make at least $ 40,000/year in order for them to survive , then you need to pay those wages .
The cost of living is much higher in the USA than it is in many of these countries , even for the same standard of living , so you have to understand that basic fact .
Food costs more , housing costs more , and there are very few low-cost places to live in many places .
When on the road , people can not sleep at home , so staying in a hotel/motel , even a cheap one will add to the cost .
So , it costs money to survive , and companies MUST pay enough for employees to survive on , or those employees will continually be looking for another job or a second job.On a slight tangent , this is why the government really does need to spend money to upgrade the infrastructure .
A high-speed rail line that can travel at 200 + miles per hour would help reduce the costs of transportation of goods , and we do n't have those in this country .
People complain when anyone in government pushes for a high speed rail line to be built because it costs money to do it as well.Ok , back on the subject at hand .
So , transportation costs a lot .
People do n't live rent free , and in many places , the cost of living for the retail worker is n't much lower than that of people in a higher tier job .
So , if rent costs $ 1000/month ( Long Island , NY is an expensive place ) , people really need at least $ 2000/month just to survive since people do not live near where they work .
You also need to have SOME markup just to cover the cost of running the business , rent , utilities , employee benefits , etc...So , how many DVDs and CDs need to be sold each day to cover the costs of doing business ?
The business owner also needs to be able to survive , so even at a bare minimum , the cost of living is behind EVERYTHING when it comes down to it.So , even if you ate only ramen , drank water , and such , how much would it cost you each month , including your car payment , gas , utilities , EVERYTHING .
There are some places in the USA that are cheaper to live , but not everyone lives in a low-cost area .
If you want to see retail stores that sell items like CDs and DVDs , the owners of those businesses need to live too , so how much do you think it costs for THEM ? DVD regions and such are there to help reduce illegal duplication.Oh , and when it comes to going TO the movies , the movie theater owners need to pay the taxes or lease prices , employees , plus the costs for utilities and such .
If they lease , the lease prices may be much higher than you may realize.So , there is a reason for things being expensive .
The manufacturing being outsourced is a reason for some of the unemployment problems , but the general cost of living , and the fact that the government keeps pumping money into the large corporations ( which keep sending jobs to other countries anyway ) rather than working to help reduce the cost of living is the long term problem.If you want to see jobs brought back into the country , we need to start by promoting manufacturing being brought back to this country .
The only way for that to happen is for a major shift in attitude toward manufacturing in this country and by offering almost a 0 percent tax on manufacturing facilities ( since employees will be paying taxes , it would help in this economy ) .
Businesses also need to be willing ( if possible ) to reduce how much they charge to others .
Basically , it would be an across the board agreement to drop prices by 10 to 20 percent , and that would really help .
If your own expenses were to go down by 10 percent , then if you were paid 10 percent less , you would be living the same way , but the prices overall would be lower , and the value of the dollar would go up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You clearly have not understood the reason for things being priced the way they are, but economics is something that is not understood well.When you have a distribution channel that costs a lot, something COULD start at $1, and end up at $50 by the time it gets to the store.First up, and if you have had to put gas in your car/truck you would know this, it costs money to transport goods.
You also need to pay people to do the transportation.Before moving on, you then need to look at how much it costs to pay people.
If employees need to make at least $40,000/year in order for them to survive, then you need to pay those wages.
The cost of living is much higher in the USA than it is in many of these countries, even for the same standard of living, so you have to understand that basic fact.
Food costs more, housing costs more, and there are very few low-cost places to live in many places.
When on the road, people can not sleep at home, so staying in a hotel/motel, even a cheap one will add to the cost.
So, it costs money to survive, and companies MUST pay enough for employees to survive on, or those employees will continually be looking for another job or a second job.On a slight tangent, this is why the government really does need to spend money to upgrade the infrastructure.
A high-speed rail line that can travel at 200+ miles per hour would help reduce the costs of transportation of goods, and we don't have those in this country.
People complain when anyone in government pushes for a high speed rail line to be built because it costs money to do it as well.Ok, back on the subject at hand.
So, transportation costs a lot.
People don't live rent free, and in many places, the cost of living for the retail worker isn't much lower than that of people in a higher tier job.
So, if rent costs $1000/month(Long Island, NY is an expensive place), people really need at least $2000/month just to survive since people do not live near where they work.
You also need to have SOME markup just to cover the cost of running the business, rent, utilities, employee benefits, etc...So, how many DVDs and CDs need to be sold each day to cover the costs of doing business?
The business owner also needs to be able to survive, so even at a bare minimum, the cost of living is behind EVERYTHING when it comes down to it.So, even if you ate only ramen, drank water, and such, how much would it cost you each month, including your car payment, gas, utilities, EVERYTHING.
There are some places in the USA that are cheaper to live, but not everyone lives in a low-cost area.
If you want to see retail stores that sell items like CDs and DVDs, the owners of those businesses need to live too, so how much do you think it costs for THEM?DVD regions and such are there to help reduce illegal duplication.Oh, and when it comes to going TO the movies, the movie theater owners need to pay the taxes or lease prices, employees, plus the costs for utilities and such.
If they lease, the lease prices may be much higher than you may realize.So, there is a reason for things being expensive.
The manufacturing being outsourced is a reason for some of the unemployment problems, but the general cost of living, and the fact that the government keeps pumping money into the large corporations(which keep sending jobs to other countries anyway) rather than working to help reduce the cost of living is the long term problem.If you want to see jobs brought back into the country, we need to start by promoting manufacturing being brought back to this country.
The only way for that to happen is for a major shift in attitude toward manufacturing in this country and by offering almost a 0 percent tax on manufacturing facilities(since employees will be paying taxes, it would help in this economy).
Businesses also need to be willing(if possible) to reduce how much they charge to others.
Basically, it would be an across the board agreement to drop prices by 10 to 20 percent, and that would really help.
If your own expenses were to go down by 10 percent, then if you were paid 10 percent less, you would be living the same way, but the prices overall would be lower, and the value of the dollar would go up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425305</id>
	<title>too many Indians</title>
	<author>z-j-y</author>
	<datestamp>1245696240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've met many Indian programmers. Some of them are brilliant, most of them are borderline retarded. The retarded ones got hired because the managers are Indians.</p><p>And don't you know you smell like shit? God damn it, do something about it, we are living in a society!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've met many Indian programmers .
Some of them are brilliant , most of them are borderline retarded .
The retarded ones got hired because the managers are Indians.And do n't you know you smell like shit ?
God damn it , do something about it , we are living in a society !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've met many Indian programmers.
Some of them are brilliant, most of them are borderline retarded.
The retarded ones got hired because the managers are Indians.And don't you know you smell like shit?
God damn it, do something about it, we are living in a society!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425079</id>
	<title>Outsourcing in general</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245695520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>is a parlor trick, brought to you by your local MBA, to make short term gains on the bottom line with no thought for the future. Forget the fact that 80\% of the turd world workers are neither better nor worse at their jobs than Americans. Forget that Americans are cheaper because when you're all sitting in the same office the communications overhead is minute compared to trying to communicate with "english as a work language" people 9 to 12 hours out of phase with our time zone. And forget the fact that the arrogance level of the third world workers has gone up expontially since MBA's have found a quick and easy way to cook the books causing them to be some of the worst people to work with from a personal standpoint. Forget all that. Just think about the USA as a country that has an economy in meltdown and approaching 10\% unemployment and you still have treasonous bastards like Balmer telling us "outsourcing is good for American". Hang the punk by his testacies in Bangladesh if he loves India so much. Not to mention the loss of technical expertise (totally lost on the business pukes) caused by handing projects to our enemies. The day is coming when these "business leaders" will be made to suffer for the damage they've done to this country for their own personal financial gain. And it's come right soon....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>is a parlor trick , brought to you by your local MBA , to make short term gains on the bottom line with no thought for the future .
Forget the fact that 80 \ % of the turd world workers are neither better nor worse at their jobs than Americans .
Forget that Americans are cheaper because when you 're all sitting in the same office the communications overhead is minute compared to trying to communicate with " english as a work language " people 9 to 12 hours out of phase with our time zone .
And forget the fact that the arrogance level of the third world workers has gone up expontially since MBA 's have found a quick and easy way to cook the books causing them to be some of the worst people to work with from a personal standpoint .
Forget all that .
Just think about the USA as a country that has an economy in meltdown and approaching 10 \ % unemployment and you still have treasonous bastards like Balmer telling us " outsourcing is good for American " .
Hang the punk by his testacies in Bangladesh if he loves India so much .
Not to mention the loss of technical expertise ( totally lost on the business pukes ) caused by handing projects to our enemies .
The day is coming when these " business leaders " will be made to suffer for the damage they 've done to this country for their own personal financial gain .
And it 's come right soon... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>is a parlor trick, brought to you by your local MBA, to make short term gains on the bottom line with no thought for the future.
Forget the fact that 80\% of the turd world workers are neither better nor worse at their jobs than Americans.
Forget that Americans are cheaper because when you're all sitting in the same office the communications overhead is minute compared to trying to communicate with "english as a work language" people 9 to 12 hours out of phase with our time zone.
And forget the fact that the arrogance level of the third world workers has gone up expontially since MBA's have found a quick and easy way to cook the books causing them to be some of the worst people to work with from a personal standpoint.
Forget all that.
Just think about the USA as a country that has an economy in meltdown and approaching 10\% unemployment and you still have treasonous bastards like Balmer telling us "outsourcing is good for American".
Hang the punk by his testacies in Bangladesh if he loves India so much.
Not to mention the loss of technical expertise (totally lost on the business pukes) caused by handing projects to our enemies.
The day is coming when these "business leaders" will be made to suffer for the damage they've done to this country for their own personal financial gain.
And it's come right soon....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417823</id>
	<title>Name an "Indian" project that went well</title>
	<author>SpaghettiPattern</author>
	<datestamp>1245701160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>"master the 'boring' details of tech process and methodology"</p></div><p>Ha!<br> <br>

I myself have worked for large outfits and many in my family work for large outfits. My experience and that of my loved ones is that working with Indian companies is a guarantee for disaster. Recently my sister witnessed a $50 million project being trashed. The problem is that Indian IT companies usually limit themselves to implementing exactly what you specify. Or, if you ask for an analysis, they let a bloated system emerge. Unless you work for a CMMI level 4 company this attitude is next to useless.<br>
People that master "tech process and methodology" wind up being slaves to "quality". Quality as in "meticulously following the procedures." As more than 90\% of businesses don't really have quality in place -or at best, have some quality shroud- this means that de facto they are slaves to the next management level. Very convenient once you are the manager.<br>
The problem is that higher management and share holders don't understand that this is common practice. They only see that Indians cost 10 times less than European/US people. If you need 20 times more people to do the work, cost double. The bureaucracy of 20 times more people cripples your organization.<br>
Man, I've seen a team of 10-15 people writing 'make' files for package generation. And particularly crappy 'make' files at that. Had to wait hours to have them running a 'make pkg' command and returning me the generated package. For Christ's sake! This is something you think about and implement on a rainy afternoon and which takes 1 minute to run each time afterwards.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" master the 'boring ' details of tech process and methodology " Ha !
I myself have worked for large outfits and many in my family work for large outfits .
My experience and that of my loved ones is that working with Indian companies is a guarantee for disaster .
Recently my sister witnessed a $ 50 million project being trashed .
The problem is that Indian IT companies usually limit themselves to implementing exactly what you specify .
Or , if you ask for an analysis , they let a bloated system emerge .
Unless you work for a CMMI level 4 company this attitude is next to useless .
People that master " tech process and methodology " wind up being slaves to " quality " .
Quality as in " meticulously following the procedures .
" As more than 90 \ % of businesses do n't really have quality in place -or at best , have some quality shroud- this means that de facto they are slaves to the next management level .
Very convenient once you are the manager .
The problem is that higher management and share holders do n't understand that this is common practice .
They only see that Indians cost 10 times less than European/US people .
If you need 20 times more people to do the work , cost double .
The bureaucracy of 20 times more people cripples your organization .
Man , I 've seen a team of 10-15 people writing 'make ' files for package generation .
And particularly crappy 'make ' files at that .
Had to wait hours to have them running a 'make pkg ' command and returning me the generated package .
For Christ 's sake !
This is something you think about and implement on a rainy afternoon and which takes 1 minute to run each time afterwards .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"master the 'boring' details of tech process and methodology"Ha!
I myself have worked for large outfits and many in my family work for large outfits.
My experience and that of my loved ones is that working with Indian companies is a guarantee for disaster.
Recently my sister witnessed a $50 million project being trashed.
The problem is that Indian IT companies usually limit themselves to implementing exactly what you specify.
Or, if you ask for an analysis, they let a bloated system emerge.
Unless you work for a CMMI level 4 company this attitude is next to useless.
People that master "tech process and methodology" wind up being slaves to "quality".
Quality as in "meticulously following the procedures.
" As more than 90\% of businesses don't really have quality in place -or at best, have some quality shroud- this means that de facto they are slaves to the next management level.
Very convenient once you are the manager.
The problem is that higher management and share holders don't understand that this is common practice.
They only see that Indians cost 10 times less than European/US people.
If you need 20 times more people to do the work, cost double.
The bureaucracy of 20 times more people cripples your organization.
Man, I've seen a team of 10-15 people writing 'make' files for package generation.
And particularly crappy 'make' files at that.
Had to wait hours to have them running a 'make pkg' command and returning me the generated package.
For Christ's sake!
This is something you think about and implement on a rainy afternoon and which takes 1 minute to run each time afterwards.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424829</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Cross-Threaded</author>
	<datestamp>1245694560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <b>Hooray! Hooray! Hooray!</b> </p><p>This IS the big picture that most are too blind to see!</p><p>Targon for KING of the world!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hooray !
Hooray ! Hooray !
This IS the big picture that most are too blind to see ! Targon for KING of the world !</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Hooray!
Hooray! Hooray!
This IS the big picture that most are too blind to see!Targon for KING of the world!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419483</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28423913</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245691500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I was a graduate student, I worked with several international students on various class projects.  Most of the international students I dealt with NOT from India were good (by "good" I mean produced code that covered the basic functionality and compiled).  Now with the Indian students, it was a mixed bag.  If the person had gone to a half way decent university (say one with decent computer labs), they were comparable to other grad students.  Some of the Indian students who may not have gone to as good of a university were bad coders.  Some of them didn't have to compile their projects (until American grad school that is) and didn't have good access to computers.  Now some of those students got better and used their time to improve their coding abilities.  Many of them are now working in the U.S.  Others would shy away from the more practical courses and focused on theoretical courses.</p><p>Professionally I've dealt with some outsourced Indian code.  It "worked" but not even close to the customer's specs and the code was poorly organized.  For example, an ASP.NET project didn't try to use any type of logical classes; everything was in the code behind.  I ended up refactoring large portions of the project and in some places just re-writing the code.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was a graduate student , I worked with several international students on various class projects .
Most of the international students I dealt with NOT from India were good ( by " good " I mean produced code that covered the basic functionality and compiled ) .
Now with the Indian students , it was a mixed bag .
If the person had gone to a half way decent university ( say one with decent computer labs ) , they were comparable to other grad students .
Some of the Indian students who may not have gone to as good of a university were bad coders .
Some of them did n't have to compile their projects ( until American grad school that is ) and did n't have good access to computers .
Now some of those students got better and used their time to improve their coding abilities .
Many of them are now working in the U.S. Others would shy away from the more practical courses and focused on theoretical courses.Professionally I 've dealt with some outsourced Indian code .
It " worked " but not even close to the customer 's specs and the code was poorly organized .
For example , an ASP.NET project did n't try to use any type of logical classes ; everything was in the code behind .
I ended up refactoring large portions of the project and in some places just re-writing the code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was a graduate student, I worked with several international students on various class projects.
Most of the international students I dealt with NOT from India were good (by "good" I mean produced code that covered the basic functionality and compiled).
Now with the Indian students, it was a mixed bag.
If the person had gone to a half way decent university (say one with decent computer labs), they were comparable to other grad students.
Some of the Indian students who may not have gone to as good of a university were bad coders.
Some of them didn't have to compile their projects (until American grad school that is) and didn't have good access to computers.
Now some of those students got better and used their time to improve their coding abilities.
Many of them are now working in the U.S.  Others would shy away from the more practical courses and focused on theoretical courses.Professionally I've dealt with some outsourced Indian code.
It "worked" but not even close to the customer's specs and the code was poorly organized.
For example, an ASP.NET project didn't try to use any type of logical classes; everything was in the code behind.
I ended up refactoring large portions of the project and in some places just re-writing the code.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417915</id>
	<title>Re:#1:</title>
	<author>Nyall</author>
	<datestamp>1245701820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> if you are poor, you can be paid a lot less to do the same job than someone less motivated and in a better socioeconomic position</p></div> </blockquote><p>I've been to India twice this year (for a total of 10 weeks) to work with HCL engineers.  They are definitely not poor and live very good lives.  A substantial number of them have been to the U.S. on work visas (they love wallmart) and when I asked which country they prefer they all like India better.  Which flabbergasts me because in Chennai even the natives don't drink the tap water.  But home is home.</p><p>Any society has class stratification.  It is the lowest class that determines the cost of many basic goods.  My impression is that India's massive underclass keeps the cost of living down, which allows the next higher class to also live cheaply.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>if you are poor , you can be paid a lot less to do the same job than someone less motivated and in a better socioeconomic position I 've been to India twice this year ( for a total of 10 weeks ) to work with HCL engineers .
They are definitely not poor and live very good lives .
A substantial number of them have been to the U.S. on work visas ( they love wallmart ) and when I asked which country they prefer they all like India better .
Which flabbergasts me because in Chennai even the natives do n't drink the tap water .
But home is home.Any society has class stratification .
It is the lowest class that determines the cost of many basic goods .
My impression is that India 's massive underclass keeps the cost of living down , which allows the next higher class to also live cheaply .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> if you are poor, you can be paid a lot less to do the same job than someone less motivated and in a better socioeconomic position I've been to India twice this year (for a total of 10 weeks) to work with HCL engineers.
They are definitely not poor and live very good lives.
A substantial number of them have been to the U.S. on work visas (they love wallmart) and when I asked which country they prefer they all like India better.
Which flabbergasts me because in Chennai even the natives don't drink the tap water.
But home is home.Any society has class stratification.
It is the lowest class that determines the cost of many basic goods.
My impression is that India's massive underclass keeps the cost of living down, which allows the next higher class to also live cheaply.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417615</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422611</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>ortholattice</author>
	<datestamp>1245687000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Is there any way to turn off all this superfluous and stupid javascript and AJAX shit that is totally ruining slashdot these days?</p></div>
</blockquote><p>

(I know this is offtopic, but it provides a partial answer.)
If you are seeing gray rectangles scattered all over the page in Firefox, blocking text, the thing that worked for me was to right-click on a gray rectangle and tell AdBlock to block it.  That magically cleared up all that garbage.  BTW NoScript did not help, it was AdBlock that did the trick.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is there any way to turn off all this superfluous and stupid javascript and AJAX shit that is totally ruining slashdot these days ?
( I know this is offtopic , but it provides a partial answer .
) If you are seeing gray rectangles scattered all over the page in Firefox , blocking text , the thing that worked for me was to right-click on a gray rectangle and tell AdBlock to block it .
That magically cleared up all that garbage .
BTW NoScript did not help , it was AdBlock that did the trick .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is there any way to turn off all this superfluous and stupid javascript and AJAX shit that is totally ruining slashdot these days?
(I know this is offtopic, but it provides a partial answer.
)
If you are seeing gray rectangles scattered all over the page in Firefox, blocking text, the thing that worked for me was to right-click on a gray rectangle and tell AdBlock to block it.
That magically cleared up all that garbage.
BTW NoScript did not help, it was AdBlock that did the trick.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419349</id>
	<title>The Bangalore Pressure Cooker</title>
	<author>stereoroid</author>
	<datestamp>1245671460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Until a couple of years ago, I worked for a major US IT firm, in Storage, and went to Bangalore to train new 2nd-level support guys on our mid-range products. The guys themselves were generally OK, since they weren't new to the industry, though there were some odd gaps in basic storage knowledge, such as SCSI protocols. Not something you'd expect to find in a person who'd allegedly done 2nd level support at another company, one that specialized in storage!</p><p>In general, though, I wasn't training new graduates from the likes of IIIT-B, but I met a few and had discussions with their managers. What I learned was that these young people were under immense pressure to succeed in IT, with the hopes and expectations of whole extended families riding on their backs. IT is the ticket out of the slums, and families make enormous sacrifices to get their kids in to the industry in the first place. In college, I was told, there's also massive pressure to score high marks, and the process is more biased towards rote learning and cramming for exams. Not totally, of course - that would be impossible - but the point is that, like the Indian education system in general, it's tighter and more authoritarian in terms of curriculum, and the schools themselves were under govt. pressure to deliver high numbers of graduates.</p><p>I hate to say this, but I met a few "graduates" who were simply not "graduate material", in terms of basic intelligence, curiosity, enthusiasm, or ability to absorb new concepts. Other graduates I met have great careers ahead of them, but I came away with the impression that "graduate" over there is a bit (again, not totally!) like "MCSE" in other countries: a statement of the exams you have passed, not a wider measure of your ability to function in a complex, ever-changing IT world. The problem with "cramming" is that while it might get you through an exam, the knowledge is not integrated and retained as well as it should be. I'm seeing this myself, now that I'm getting to go to university as a mature student (Engineering), where some subjects would IMHO be better assessed by e.g. thesis, not exam.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Until a couple of years ago , I worked for a major US IT firm , in Storage , and went to Bangalore to train new 2nd-level support guys on our mid-range products .
The guys themselves were generally OK , since they were n't new to the industry , though there were some odd gaps in basic storage knowledge , such as SCSI protocols .
Not something you 'd expect to find in a person who 'd allegedly done 2nd level support at another company , one that specialized in storage ! In general , though , I was n't training new graduates from the likes of IIIT-B , but I met a few and had discussions with their managers .
What I learned was that these young people were under immense pressure to succeed in IT , with the hopes and expectations of whole extended families riding on their backs .
IT is the ticket out of the slums , and families make enormous sacrifices to get their kids in to the industry in the first place .
In college , I was told , there 's also massive pressure to score high marks , and the process is more biased towards rote learning and cramming for exams .
Not totally , of course - that would be impossible - but the point is that , like the Indian education system in general , it 's tighter and more authoritarian in terms of curriculum , and the schools themselves were under govt .
pressure to deliver high numbers of graduates.I hate to say this , but I met a few " graduates " who were simply not " graduate material " , in terms of basic intelligence , curiosity , enthusiasm , or ability to absorb new concepts .
Other graduates I met have great careers ahead of them , but I came away with the impression that " graduate " over there is a bit ( again , not totally !
) like " MCSE " in other countries : a statement of the exams you have passed , not a wider measure of your ability to function in a complex , ever-changing IT world .
The problem with " cramming " is that while it might get you through an exam , the knowledge is not integrated and retained as well as it should be .
I 'm seeing this myself , now that I 'm getting to go to university as a mature student ( Engineering ) , where some subjects would IMHO be better assessed by e.g .
thesis , not exam .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Until a couple of years ago, I worked for a major US IT firm, in Storage, and went to Bangalore to train new 2nd-level support guys on our mid-range products.
The guys themselves were generally OK, since they weren't new to the industry, though there were some odd gaps in basic storage knowledge, such as SCSI protocols.
Not something you'd expect to find in a person who'd allegedly done 2nd level support at another company, one that specialized in storage!In general, though, I wasn't training new graduates from the likes of IIIT-B, but I met a few and had discussions with their managers.
What I learned was that these young people were under immense pressure to succeed in IT, with the hopes and expectations of whole extended families riding on their backs.
IT is the ticket out of the slums, and families make enormous sacrifices to get their kids in to the industry in the first place.
In college, I was told, there's also massive pressure to score high marks, and the process is more biased towards rote learning and cramming for exams.
Not totally, of course - that would be impossible - but the point is that, like the Indian education system in general, it's tighter and more authoritarian in terms of curriculum, and the schools themselves were under govt.
pressure to deliver high numbers of graduates.I hate to say this, but I met a few "graduates" who were simply not "graduate material", in terms of basic intelligence, curiosity, enthusiasm, or ability to absorb new concepts.
Other graduates I met have great careers ahead of them, but I came away with the impression that "graduate" over there is a bit (again, not totally!
) like "MCSE" in other countries: a statement of the exams you have passed, not a wider measure of your ability to function in a complex, ever-changing IT world.
The problem with "cramming" is that while it might get you through an exam, the knowledge is not integrated and retained as well as it should be.
I'm seeing this myself, now that I'm getting to go to university as a mature student (Engineering), where some subjects would IMHO be better assessed by e.g.
thesis, not exam.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28442159</id>
	<title>Ohh . HCL you said it!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245783960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Finally a CEO who is audacious enough to state the facts right.!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Finally a CEO who is audacious enough to state the facts right. !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Finally a CEO who is audacious enough to state the facts right.!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425489</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1245696840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Competence knows no nationality. Some of the best and brightest coders I have ever met have come from India, as well as some of the least competent. Middle class Indians have an advantage in that they come from a culture that places a very high value on education, and therefore tend to be very highly educated. They have a disadvantage in that they come from a culture where you never contradict your superiors. If your manager says the project can be done in 3 weeks, you don't dare contradict him, you just fake it as best you can.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Competence knows no nationality .
Some of the best and brightest coders I have ever met have come from India , as well as some of the least competent .
Middle class Indians have an advantage in that they come from a culture that places a very high value on education , and therefore tend to be very highly educated .
They have a disadvantage in that they come from a culture where you never contradict your superiors .
If your manager says the project can be done in 3 weeks , you do n't dare contradict him , you just fake it as best you can .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Competence knows no nationality.
Some of the best and brightest coders I have ever met have come from India, as well as some of the least competent.
Middle class Indians have an advantage in that they come from a culture that places a very high value on education, and therefore tend to be very highly educated.
They have a disadvantage in that they come from a culture where you never contradict your superiors.
If your manager says the project can be done in 3 weeks, you don't dare contradict him, you just fake it as best you can.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419073</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1245669240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What good is it if the TV set costs 300 instead of 3000 bucks if you don't even have those 300 bucks because you have no job, because said job was shipped overseas so the TV can be made for 300 bucks?</p><p>Cheap comes at a price, you know...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What good is it if the TV set costs 300 instead of 3000 bucks if you do n't even have those 300 bucks because you have no job , because said job was shipped overseas so the TV can be made for 300 bucks ? Cheap comes at a price , you know.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What good is it if the TV set costs 300 instead of 3000 bucks if you don't even have those 300 bucks because you have no job, because said job was shipped overseas so the TV can be made for 300 bucks?Cheap comes at a price, you know...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28426291</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245699780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The discussions are almost always more insightful.  IMO.  It may just be a cultural thing, but digg seems beset by people who want to toss in their spurious one-liner.  You get some of that on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/., but you get a lot of people who take the time to write a more fully-fleshed comment which materially adds value to the discussion.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The discussions are almost always more insightful .
IMO. It may just be a cultural thing , but digg seems beset by people who want to toss in their spurious one-liner .
You get some of that on /. , but you get a lot of people who take the time to write a more fully-fleshed comment which materially adds value to the discussion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The discussions are almost always more insightful.
IMO.  It may just be a cultural thing, but digg seems beset by people who want to toss in their spurious one-liner.
You get some of that on /., but you get a lot of people who take the time to write a more fully-fleshed comment which materially adds value to the discussion.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419487</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417399</id>
	<title>Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245611220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd say its time to pull the plug on free trade and let these people jump start their own local economies on their own merits, and not on shoveling their crap into the USA.  India has not done a damned thing for the USA and I see no reason why the USA should throw its people out of work to subsidize India's economy.</p><p>Free trade is not worth it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd say its time to pull the plug on free trade and let these people jump start their own local economies on their own merits , and not on shoveling their crap into the USA .
India has not done a damned thing for the USA and I see no reason why the USA should throw its people out of work to subsidize India 's economy.Free trade is not worth it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd say its time to pull the plug on free trade and let these people jump start their own local economies on their own merits, and not on shoveling their crap into the USA.
India has not done a damned thing for the USA and I see no reason why the USA should throw its people out of work to subsidize India's economy.Free trade is not worth it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418313</id>
	<title>Having had some experience</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245662400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>with international programming contract auction sites, I can do my own stereotyping:
<br> <br>
There are a boatload of Indian and Pakistani firms that may be graduates of their own education systems, but are woefully incompetent. They may be "more willing" to learn the drudgery of a lot of contract work, but (I am stereotyping here but doing it as realistically as I can), they NEED that learning because they did not get it in their education. Expecting employers to then train people to do what they should already know how to do, is unrealistic.
<br> <br>
I have seen firms from these countries (and a few others) bid on contracts <i>en masse</i>... using a standard form letter that basically says this: "We are experts in this particular field. Choose our company which has 4 yeears of experience doing this very thing.", and underbidding nearly everyone else.
<br> <br>
The problem on these sites is: those who offer the jobs do not see all these responses to other job offers. They only see the answers to their own ads. So they don't see that someone has claimed "expertise" in every subfield under the sun, all for the same low price.
<br> <br>
And of course then they don't deliver. I have seen a rapidly increasing number of ads that say "only accepting bids from the Americas and Western Europe... we have been ripped off too often by Eastern companies claiming to be experts who do not deliver."
<br> <br>
Do not write me back and accuse me of prejudice. This is my actual long-term experience. If your own experience has been different, fine. Situations vary. I can only report what I have personally seen.</htmltext>
<tokenext>with international programming contract auction sites , I can do my own stereotyping : There are a boatload of Indian and Pakistani firms that may be graduates of their own education systems , but are woefully incompetent .
They may be " more willing " to learn the drudgery of a lot of contract work , but ( I am stereotyping here but doing it as realistically as I can ) , they NEED that learning because they did not get it in their education .
Expecting employers to then train people to do what they should already know how to do , is unrealistic .
I have seen firms from these countries ( and a few others ) bid on contracts en masse... using a standard form letter that basically says this : " We are experts in this particular field .
Choose our company which has 4 yeears of experience doing this very thing .
" , and underbidding nearly everyone else .
The problem on these sites is : those who offer the jobs do not see all these responses to other job offers .
They only see the answers to their own ads .
So they do n't see that someone has claimed " expertise " in every subfield under the sun , all for the same low price .
And of course then they do n't deliver .
I have seen a rapidly increasing number of ads that say " only accepting bids from the Americas and Western Europe... we have been ripped off too often by Eastern companies claiming to be experts who do not deliver .
" Do not write me back and accuse me of prejudice .
This is my actual long-term experience .
If your own experience has been different , fine .
Situations vary .
I can only report what I have personally seen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>with international programming contract auction sites, I can do my own stereotyping:
 
There are a boatload of Indian and Pakistani firms that may be graduates of their own education systems, but are woefully incompetent.
They may be "more willing" to learn the drudgery of a lot of contract work, but (I am stereotyping here but doing it as realistically as I can), they NEED that learning because they did not get it in their education.
Expecting employers to then train people to do what they should already know how to do, is unrealistic.
I have seen firms from these countries (and a few others) bid on contracts en masse... using a standard form letter that basically says this: "We are experts in this particular field.
Choose our company which has 4 yeears of experience doing this very thing.
", and underbidding nearly everyone else.
The problem on these sites is: those who offer the jobs do not see all these responses to other job offers.
They only see the answers to their own ads.
So they don't see that someone has claimed "expertise" in every subfield under the sun, all for the same low price.
And of course then they don't deliver.
I have seen a rapidly increasing number of ads that say "only accepting bids from the Americas and Western Europe... we have been ripped off too often by Eastern companies claiming to be experts who do not deliver.
"
 
Do not write me back and accuse me of prejudice.
This is my actual long-term experience.
If your own experience has been different, fine.
Situations vary.
I can only report what I have personally seen.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418163</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>alberthier</author>
	<datestamp>1245704100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>We have the same here:

Our indian team is OK for pissing some simple code, but when it comes to more advanced design they're lost.
OK, it is not rigth for all of them, but only 5\% are really skilled and you have to pay them.

Most of the guys I work with there haven't ever heard of design patterns or MVC. We ship linux versions of our software, and most of them are lost when using another OS than Windows, when they design something one day, if two days later they need something similar, they copy-paste instead of writing a generic design, etc...</htmltext>
<tokenext>We have the same here : Our indian team is OK for pissing some simple code , but when it comes to more advanced design they 're lost .
OK , it is not rigth for all of them , but only 5 \ % are really skilled and you have to pay them .
Most of the guys I work with there have n't ever heard of design patterns or MVC .
We ship linux versions of our software , and most of them are lost when using another OS than Windows , when they design something one day , if two days later they need something similar , they copy-paste instead of writing a generic design , etc.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We have the same here:

Our indian team is OK for pissing some simple code, but when it comes to more advanced design they're lost.
OK, it is not rigth for all of them, but only 5\% are really skilled and you have to pay them.
Most of the guys I work with there haven't ever heard of design patterns or MVC.
We ship linux versions of our software, and most of them are lost when using another OS than Windows, when they design something one day, if two days later they need something similar, they copy-paste instead of writing a generic design, etc...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421025</id>
	<title>You had me...</title>
	<author>thePowerOfGrayskull</author>
	<datestamp>1245681780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You had me up until "rediculous"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D
<p>
On a more serious note, well said.  People are often quick to complain about the accent, or the quality of service, or myriad other things -- but the vast majority will feel that they've done their part after having complained, and continue to use the same products and services because they<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/are/ cheaper.  The adage "you get what you pay for" may be overused, but it also happens to be true in most cases.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You had me up until " rediculous " : D On a more serious note , well said .
People are often quick to complain about the accent , or the quality of service , or myriad other things -- but the vast majority will feel that they 've done their part after having complained , and continue to use the same products and services because they /are/ cheaper .
The adage " you get what you pay for " may be overused , but it also happens to be true in most cases .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You had me up until "rediculous" :D

On a more serious note, well said.
People are often quick to complain about the accent, or the quality of service, or myriad other things -- but the vast majority will feel that they've done their part after having complained, and continue to use the same products and services because they /are/ cheaper.
The adage "you get what you pay for" may be overused, but it also happens to be true in most cases.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424177</id>
	<title>Re:Unemployable?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245692340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, also Americans have a god-given right to be fat and lazy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , also Americans have a god-given right to be fat and lazy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, also Americans have a god-given right to be fat and lazy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417645</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419203</id>
	<title>Most Indian tech grads are not employable</title>
	<author>mgc1000</author>
	<datestamp>1245670320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>
I hire Indians for an Indian company.  I can say that generally Indian tech grads less employable than US tech grads.  Many Indians are so poor they grow up never owning a computer (only using the school computer).   Indians lucky enough have a computer have to deal with terrible internet speeds and have to deal with constant power cuts (like having electricity only 12 hours a day).  Many Indians grow up without proper nutrition or proper health care and therefore have stunted growth (perhaps stunted mental growth too?).   India is still quite a primitive, backward country.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I hire Indians for an Indian company .
I can say that generally Indian tech grads less employable than US tech grads .
Many Indians are so poor they grow up never owning a computer ( only using the school computer ) .
Indians lucky enough have a computer have to deal with terrible internet speeds and have to deal with constant power cuts ( like having electricity only 12 hours a day ) .
Many Indians grow up without proper nutrition or proper health care and therefore have stunted growth ( perhaps stunted mental growth too ? ) .
India is still quite a primitive , backward country .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
I hire Indians for an Indian company.
I can say that generally Indian tech grads less employable than US tech grads.
Many Indians are so poor they grow up never owning a computer (only using the school computer).
Indians lucky enough have a computer have to deal with terrible internet speeds and have to deal with constant power cuts (like having electricity only 12 hours a day).
Many Indians grow up without proper nutrition or proper health care and therefore have stunted growth (perhaps stunted mental growth too?).
India is still quite a primitive, backward country.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420857</id>
	<title>College isn't about learning products</title>
	<author>SCHecklerX</author>
	<datestamp>1245681120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... and that seems to be what this guy expects a graduate to have studied.  Ridiculous.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... and that seems to be what this guy expects a graduate to have studied .
Ridiculous .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... and that seems to be what this guy expects a graduate to have studied.
Ridiculous.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417861</id>
	<title>Re:Yes, we yanks are such dolts!</title>
	<author>mgblst</author>
	<datestamp>1245701460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, it is the Indians to blame for being given mission-critical project with clearly very little over site.</p><p>I think the problem is that teams over here think they can get working teams over there, using the same processes they have already used. In fact, there is a lot more over site and control needed of off-shoring development.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , it is the Indians to blame for being given mission-critical project with clearly very little over site.I think the problem is that teams over here think they can get working teams over there , using the same processes they have already used .
In fact , there is a lot more over site and control needed of off-shoring development .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, it is the Indians to blame for being given mission-critical project with clearly very little over site.I think the problem is that teams over here think they can get working teams over there, using the same processes they have already used.
In fact, there is a lot more over site and control needed of off-shoring development.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417569</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28437781</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>indiechild</author>
	<datestamp>1245766440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's just like in web development. We're constantly having to clean up other people's god awful mess. It's not hard to learn how to write proper semantic HTML and CSS, but that escapes about 95\% of "professional" developers out there. It's not just ignorance, it's pure laziness. You can see the mindset here in Slashdot every time there is a story related to webdev -- you get a mass of +5 modded people saying web standards are useless, and that you should use tables for layout.</p><p>The world really is a sea of mediocrity -- by being competent, you're already outshining the vast majority of them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's just like in web development .
We 're constantly having to clean up other people 's god awful mess .
It 's not hard to learn how to write proper semantic HTML and CSS , but that escapes about 95 \ % of " professional " developers out there .
It 's not just ignorance , it 's pure laziness .
You can see the mindset here in Slashdot every time there is a story related to webdev -- you get a mass of + 5 modded people saying web standards are useless , and that you should use tables for layout.The world really is a sea of mediocrity -- by being competent , you 're already outshining the vast majority of them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's just like in web development.
We're constantly having to clean up other people's god awful mess.
It's not hard to learn how to write proper semantic HTML and CSS, but that escapes about 95\% of "professional" developers out there.
It's not just ignorance, it's pure laziness.
You can see the mindset here in Slashdot every time there is a story related to webdev -- you get a mass of +5 modded people saying web standards are useless, and that you should use tables for layout.The world really is a sea of mediocrity -- by being competent, you're already outshining the vast majority of them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417687</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28431677</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245675120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is a huge difference between H1-B program and immigration. When you immigrate to US you live in US, you make money in US but you also spend that money in US. You feed the US economy , you become the US economy.  The H1-B program creates a group of people who are at least technically are temporary workers and supposed to return to their country at least at some point.  They are not a part of the US economy and as a result of that simply syphon money from US economy into their country's economy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is a huge difference between H1-B program and immigration .
When you immigrate to US you live in US , you make money in US but you also spend that money in US .
You feed the US economy , you become the US economy .
The H1-B program creates a group of people who are at least technically are temporary workers and supposed to return to their country at least at some point .
They are not a part of the US economy and as a result of that simply syphon money from US economy into their country 's economy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is a huge difference between H1-B program and immigration.
When you immigrate to US you live in US, you make money in US but you also spend that money in US.
You feed the US economy , you become the US economy.
The H1-B program creates a group of people who are at least technically are temporary workers and supposed to return to their country at least at some point.
They are not a part of the US economy and as a result of that simply syphon money from US economy into their country's economy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418517</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422603</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>T Murphy</author>
	<datestamp>1245687000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Haven't you noticed those prominently-placed text ads for Intel and AMD - the ones tagged as stories?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Have n't you noticed those prominently-placed text ads for Intel and AMD - the ones tagged as stories ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Haven't you noticed those prominently-placed text ads for Intel and AMD - the ones tagged as stories?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418587</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424203</id>
	<title>Re:India: The skrypt kiddies of programming</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1245692400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or at least didn't go to work for the lowest bidder outsourcing company. They're working for the more expensive (and higher quality) company that may or may not offer outsourcing services but was willing to pay what their abilities were worth. Or, as you said, they moved to where the pay is better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or at least did n't go to work for the lowest bidder outsourcing company .
They 're working for the more expensive ( and higher quality ) company that may or may not offer outsourcing services but was willing to pay what their abilities were worth .
Or , as you said , they moved to where the pay is better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or at least didn't go to work for the lowest bidder outsourcing company.
They're working for the more expensive (and higher quality) company that may or may not offer outsourcing services but was willing to pay what their abilities were worth.
Or, as you said, they moved to where the pay is better.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417683</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419065</id>
	<title>the cheap software get expensive in the long time</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245669180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Exactly, they are cheap and you get what you pay.<br>I can undestand why a lot of enterprises give the software developement to Indian outsourcing, it's just to save money. But I can't undestand how they can not realize that in the long time they spent and will spend more money than if they had paid good US enginneers because:</p><p>1.- They would not invest so much money to mantain and support all that crap of code.<br>2.- They will not be attached to the indians because a good engineer can't make new software modules on that kind of code, only the indians can develop new awful code on their own mess.<br>3.- They will have a good and full documentation of the source code.</p><p>But well they like to pay less at the moment, get a cheap software and pay more for mantain the awful code. And later pay again to good engineers to do all the software again.</p><p>Three years ago I worked giving outsourcing to a very important US enterprise, I was in Mexico and they paid me for receiving and finding bugs of software developed by Indians. Really the software was a mess and some of the applications where very important for the enterprise.  There were plenty of code like: if( exception big problem) then.....NOTHING.<br>Nothing! how can you find the problem in lines and lines of code if you don't even send something to the user, to a log or something.<br>On US business hours this kind of support was managed at Mexico and on US nights it was managed by an Indian outsourcing (the same that made the code).<br>I think the mexican team made a good job but unfortunately the Indians where cheaper than us and one day the enterprise sent all the support to India and I loose my job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly , they are cheap and you get what you pay.I can undestand why a lot of enterprises give the software developement to Indian outsourcing , it 's just to save money .
But I ca n't undestand how they can not realize that in the long time they spent and will spend more money than if they had paid good US enginneers because : 1.- They would not invest so much money to mantain and support all that crap of code.2.- They will not be attached to the indians because a good engineer ca n't make new software modules on that kind of code , only the indians can develop new awful code on their own mess.3.- They will have a good and full documentation of the source code.But well they like to pay less at the moment , get a cheap software and pay more for mantain the awful code .
And later pay again to good engineers to do all the software again.Three years ago I worked giving outsourcing to a very important US enterprise , I was in Mexico and they paid me for receiving and finding bugs of software developed by Indians .
Really the software was a mess and some of the applications where very important for the enterprise .
There were plenty of code like : if ( exception big problem ) then.....NOTHING.Nothing !
how can you find the problem in lines and lines of code if you do n't even send something to the user , to a log or something.On US business hours this kind of support was managed at Mexico and on US nights it was managed by an Indian outsourcing ( the same that made the code ) .I think the mexican team made a good job but unfortunately the Indians where cheaper than us and one day the enterprise sent all the support to India and I loose my job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly, they are cheap and you get what you pay.I can undestand why a lot of enterprises give the software developement to Indian outsourcing, it's just to save money.
But I can't undestand how they can not realize that in the long time they spent and will spend more money than if they had paid good US enginneers because:1.- They would not invest so much money to mantain and support all that crap of code.2.- They will not be attached to the indians because a good engineer can't make new software modules on that kind of code, only the indians can develop new awful code on their own mess.3.- They will have a good and full documentation of the source code.But well they like to pay less at the moment, get a cheap software and pay more for mantain the awful code.
And later pay again to good engineers to do all the software again.Three years ago I worked giving outsourcing to a very important US enterprise, I was in Mexico and they paid me for receiving and finding bugs of software developed by Indians.
Really the software was a mess and some of the applications where very important for the enterprise.
There were plenty of code like: if( exception big problem) then.....NOTHING.Nothing!
how can you find the problem in lines and lines of code if you don't even send something to the user, to a log or something.On US business hours this kind of support was managed at Mexico and on US nights it was managed by an Indian outsourcing (the same that made the code).I think the mexican team made a good job but unfortunately the Indians where cheaper than us and one day the enterprise sent all the support to India and I loose my job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420619</id>
	<title>Developing country?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245680160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"They're far less inclined than students from developing countries like India, China, Brazil, South Africa, and Ireland"</p><p>Since when is Ireland a developing country? It has one of the highest GDP/Capita rates in Europe.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" They 're far less inclined than students from developing countries like India , China , Brazil , South Africa , and Ireland " Since when is Ireland a developing country ?
It has one of the highest GDP/Capita rates in Europe .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"They're far less inclined than students from developing countries like India, China, Brazil, South Africa, and Ireland"Since when is Ireland a developing country?
It has one of the highest GDP/Capita rates in Europe.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28431113</id>
	<title>Re:Indian hypocrisy is palpable</title>
	<author>Cross-Threaded</author>
	<datestamp>1245673140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p>If we get into protectionism, then the West is going to get a wave of protectionism in response, and that is going to turn back the clock 20 years," Premji told The Sunday Times.</p></div></div><p>If this is true, let's get going and turn the damn clock back already. I'd love to have another crack at the wages good American CS/IT jobs were paying back then!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>On a serious note, many in this discussion have pointed out that the US economy became strongest during our own periods of protectionism. It probably wouldn't be considered politically correct by many, but it makes me think that if it worked before, why not give it another shot?</p><p>I would not be worried for a second if every other nation wanted to do the same. After all, the purpose of a nation is to look out for your own citizens.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If we get into protectionism , then the West is going to get a wave of protectionism in response , and that is going to turn back the clock 20 years , " Premji told The Sunday Times.If this is true , let 's get going and turn the damn clock back already .
I 'd love to have another crack at the wages good American CS/IT jobs were paying back then !
: ) On a serious note , many in this discussion have pointed out that the US economy became strongest during our own periods of protectionism .
It probably would n't be considered politically correct by many , but it makes me think that if it worked before , why not give it another shot ? I would not be worried for a second if every other nation wanted to do the same .
After all , the purpose of a nation is to look out for your own citizens .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If we get into protectionism, then the West is going to get a wave of protectionism in response, and that is going to turn back the clock 20 years," Premji told The Sunday Times.If this is true, let's get going and turn the damn clock back already.
I'd love to have another crack at the wages good American CS/IT jobs were paying back then!
:)On a serious note, many in this discussion have pointed out that the US economy became strongest during our own periods of protectionism.
It probably wouldn't be considered politically correct by many, but it makes me think that if it worked before, why not give it another shot?I would not be worried for a second if every other nation wanted to do the same.
After all, the purpose of a nation is to look out for your own citizens.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420433</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419653</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>ishobo</author>
	<datestamp>1245673920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do not worry, I put the Americans under the Chinese and Europeans. You folks in the States have got to get a handle on your crappy education system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do not worry , I put the Americans under the Chinese and Europeans .
You folks in the States have got to get a handle on your crappy education system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do not worry, I put the Americans under the Chinese and Europeans.
You folks in the States have got to get a handle on your crappy education system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418847</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418305</id>
	<title>Re:My observations.</title>
	<author>Tranzistors</author>
	<datestamp>1245662340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If I spend 6 years in college and have a Master's degree, you can kiss my ass with your $35k offer.</p></div><p>Funny thing, in Latvia getting $35k offer after Masters is considered pretty good one. As for quality of education, at least where I study we have RISC 16 in first semester (warming up) and z/OS assembly in third year. Language of choice - C/C++. It is bit difficult to compare with US education quality, for I haven't been there.</p><p>By the way, six year learning costs about $15k total.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If I spend 6 years in college and have a Master 's degree , you can kiss my ass with your $ 35k offer.Funny thing , in Latvia getting $ 35k offer after Masters is considered pretty good one .
As for quality of education , at least where I study we have RISC 16 in first semester ( warming up ) and z/OS assembly in third year .
Language of choice - C/C + + .
It is bit difficult to compare with US education quality , for I have n't been there.By the way , six year learning costs about $ 15k total .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I spend 6 years in college and have a Master's degree, you can kiss my ass with your $35k offer.Funny thing, in Latvia getting $35k offer after Masters is considered pretty good one.
As for quality of education, at least where I study we have RISC 16 in first semester (warming up) and z/OS assembly in third year.
Language of choice - C/C++.
It is bit difficult to compare with US education quality, for I haven't been there.By the way, six year learning costs about $15k total.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417629</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419025</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245668880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This tired old argument ignores the downward pressure a competitive market puts on prices. It has less to do with macroeconomic reality and more to do with PR for those promoting the "goodness" of outsourcing overseas. While it's true it does reduce costs, the idea that those savings transfer over universally to the prices consumers pay is make believe. As we've seen in the current environment, producers will only reduces prices if they absolutely HAVE TO! Businesses are not this benevolent entity that says "hey, I saved $100 in cost! Let me pass these savings on to you!" Only the market will force that cost-savings on to the consumer.<br>To be fair, I was one of the people being interviewed that missed a couple of questions I should have known the last time I interviewed for a programming job. And yes, I have a CS degree. But I also informed the potential employer beforehand that I have been working outside of the field for several years because the jobs offered in the field are sparse and do not start out paying what I currently earn. There is something to be said for the difference between going to school in a field and actually doing the work day-in and day-out!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This tired old argument ignores the downward pressure a competitive market puts on prices .
It has less to do with macroeconomic reality and more to do with PR for those promoting the " goodness " of outsourcing overseas .
While it 's true it does reduce costs , the idea that those savings transfer over universally to the prices consumers pay is make believe .
As we 've seen in the current environment , producers will only reduces prices if they absolutely HAVE TO !
Businesses are not this benevolent entity that says " hey , I saved $ 100 in cost !
Let me pass these savings on to you !
" Only the market will force that cost-savings on to the consumer.To be fair , I was one of the people being interviewed that missed a couple of questions I should have known the last time I interviewed for a programming job .
And yes , I have a CS degree .
But I also informed the potential employer beforehand that I have been working outside of the field for several years because the jobs offered in the field are sparse and do not start out paying what I currently earn .
There is something to be said for the difference between going to school in a field and actually doing the work day-in and day-out !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This tired old argument ignores the downward pressure a competitive market puts on prices.
It has less to do with macroeconomic reality and more to do with PR for those promoting the "goodness" of outsourcing overseas.
While it's true it does reduce costs, the idea that those savings transfer over universally to the prices consumers pay is make believe.
As we've seen in the current environment, producers will only reduces prices if they absolutely HAVE TO!
Businesses are not this benevolent entity that says "hey, I saved $100 in cost!
Let me pass these savings on to you!
" Only the market will force that cost-savings on to the consumer.To be fair, I was one of the people being interviewed that missed a couple of questions I should have known the last time I interviewed for a programming job.
And yes, I have a CS degree.
But I also informed the potential employer beforehand that I have been working outside of the field for several years because the jobs offered in the field are sparse and do not start out paying what I currently earn.
There is something to be said for the difference between going to school in a field and actually doing the work day-in and day-out!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419913</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1245676080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What you're ignoring is that many don't really understand why they should be subjected to national bars, territory protection and segregation of markets while companies on the other hand can ignore such petty things as local laws and workers protection simply by shipping off jobs overseas.</p><p>Free trade is obviously only ok if it benefits the corporations, if the consumer would benefit it's suddenly an absolute nono.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What you 're ignoring is that many do n't really understand why they should be subjected to national bars , territory protection and segregation of markets while companies on the other hand can ignore such petty things as local laws and workers protection simply by shipping off jobs overseas.Free trade is obviously only ok if it benefits the corporations , if the consumer would benefit it 's suddenly an absolute nono .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What you're ignoring is that many don't really understand why they should be subjected to national bars, territory protection and segregation of markets while companies on the other hand can ignore such petty things as local laws and workers protection simply by shipping off jobs overseas.Free trade is obviously only ok if it benefits the corporations, if the consumer would benefit it's suddenly an absolute nono.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418367</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28438637</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Prof.Phreak</author>
	<datestamp>1245771000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're confusing temporary employment and immigration. I'm all for immigration (the best and the brightest should come and stay in US!). What I dislike is corps/govs taking advantage of folks by ``temporarily'' moving work and people around at minimum wage. You think an H1-B holder can demand a fair salary? Ha!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're confusing temporary employment and immigration .
I 'm all for immigration ( the best and the brightest should come and stay in US ! ) .
What I dislike is corps/govs taking advantage of folks by ` ` temporarily' ' moving work and people around at minimum wage .
You think an H1-B holder can demand a fair salary ?
Ha !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're confusing temporary employment and immigration.
I'm all for immigration (the best and the brightest should come and stay in US!).
What I dislike is corps/govs taking advantage of folks by ``temporarily'' moving work and people around at minimum wage.
You think an H1-B holder can demand a fair salary?
Ha!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418517</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418251</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245661800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>BULLSHIT.  Why should Americans have to compete with the highly subsidized Indian educational system?</p><p>And fuck this bullshit about American workers having to compete with people in China, who don't even have basic labor safety.  How many of you Slashdotters have ever worked manual labor or in a factor?  It's dangerous by nature, far more dangerous than working in front of a computer.  When you work with a spot welder or a flat metal break, you can be maimed for life or killed.  Why should American workers have to compete with industries overseas where they routinely dump battery acid in rivers, and pump coal byproducts into the air?</p><p>Great, I can buy cheap crap at Walmart...with what money.  American median incomes have stagnated over the last 2 decades.  That's a fact.  And, we now experience more income volatility than ever before.  Fuck "voting with my dollars."  I'm not a consumer-- I'm a citizen.  And as a citizen I DEMAND that my government protect my best interests.</p><p>It's not fair to the H1b's either.  They get jerked around by their contracting agencies, while they wait years for a green card.  Want a docile workforce?  Then make sure they know if they raise their voice they'll get sent back to India.  If we do have a shortage of skilled workers, then let's give them green cards right away.  Oh wait-- that'll screw things up because then management can't threaten to send them back to India and keep everyone's wages down.</p><p>What's ridiculous is that you think saving a few bucks is worth the destruction of the middle class and the mistreatment of Indian H1b's.  I don't blame the people coming over on H1b-- they are just trying to get ahead in life.  In fact, I hate seeing how they are treated by their own management, and , in many cases by the body shops that are run by other Indian people. It's exploitive bullshit.</p><p>Americans have fought and died on foreign battlefields and right here at home.  They died  in factories, crushed by heavy equipment  and in the streets, beat up by hired strikebreakers.  They fought for freedom.  The fought for  better labor standards, the right to organize  and a living environment that doesn't feature air pollution and water filled with human feces.  I'll be damned if I'll sit here and listen to your nonsense about saving a few bucks and embracing the race to the bottom. Fuck you for pissing on the graves of all those who fought and died so you could sit smugly at your keyboard and talk about saving a few bucks.</p><p>Fuck you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>BULLSHIT .
Why should Americans have to compete with the highly subsidized Indian educational system ? And fuck this bullshit about American workers having to compete with people in China , who do n't even have basic labor safety .
How many of you Slashdotters have ever worked manual labor or in a factor ?
It 's dangerous by nature , far more dangerous than working in front of a computer .
When you work with a spot welder or a flat metal break , you can be maimed for life or killed .
Why should American workers have to compete with industries overseas where they routinely dump battery acid in rivers , and pump coal byproducts into the air ? Great , I can buy cheap crap at Walmart...with what money .
American median incomes have stagnated over the last 2 decades .
That 's a fact .
And , we now experience more income volatility than ever before .
Fuck " voting with my dollars .
" I 'm not a consumer-- I 'm a citizen .
And as a citizen I DEMAND that my government protect my best interests.It 's not fair to the H1b 's either .
They get jerked around by their contracting agencies , while they wait years for a green card .
Want a docile workforce ?
Then make sure they know if they raise their voice they 'll get sent back to India .
If we do have a shortage of skilled workers , then let 's give them green cards right away .
Oh wait-- that 'll screw things up because then management ca n't threaten to send them back to India and keep everyone 's wages down.What 's ridiculous is that you think saving a few bucks is worth the destruction of the middle class and the mistreatment of Indian H1b 's .
I do n't blame the people coming over on H1b-- they are just trying to get ahead in life .
In fact , I hate seeing how they are treated by their own management , and , in many cases by the body shops that are run by other Indian people .
It 's exploitive bullshit.Americans have fought and died on foreign battlefields and right here at home .
They died in factories , crushed by heavy equipment and in the streets , beat up by hired strikebreakers .
They fought for freedom .
The fought for better labor standards , the right to organize and a living environment that does n't feature air pollution and water filled with human feces .
I 'll be damned if I 'll sit here and listen to your nonsense about saving a few bucks and embracing the race to the bottom .
Fuck you for pissing on the graves of all those who fought and died so you could sit smugly at your keyboard and talk about saving a few bucks.Fuck you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>BULLSHIT.
Why should Americans have to compete with the highly subsidized Indian educational system?And fuck this bullshit about American workers having to compete with people in China, who don't even have basic labor safety.
How many of you Slashdotters have ever worked manual labor or in a factor?
It's dangerous by nature, far more dangerous than working in front of a computer.
When you work with a spot welder or a flat metal break, you can be maimed for life or killed.
Why should American workers have to compete with industries overseas where they routinely dump battery acid in rivers, and pump coal byproducts into the air?Great, I can buy cheap crap at Walmart...with what money.
American median incomes have stagnated over the last 2 decades.
That's a fact.
And, we now experience more income volatility than ever before.
Fuck "voting with my dollars.
"  I'm not a consumer-- I'm a citizen.
And as a citizen I DEMAND that my government protect my best interests.It's not fair to the H1b's either.
They get jerked around by their contracting agencies, while they wait years for a green card.
Want a docile workforce?
Then make sure they know if they raise their voice they'll get sent back to India.
If we do have a shortage of skilled workers, then let's give them green cards right away.
Oh wait-- that'll screw things up because then management can't threaten to send them back to India and keep everyone's wages down.What's ridiculous is that you think saving a few bucks is worth the destruction of the middle class and the mistreatment of Indian H1b's.
I don't blame the people coming over on H1b-- they are just trying to get ahead in life.
In fact, I hate seeing how they are treated by their own management, and , in many cases by the body shops that are run by other Indian people.
It's exploitive bullshit.Americans have fought and died on foreign battlefields and right here at home.
They died  in factories, crushed by heavy equipment  and in the streets, beat up by hired strikebreakers.
They fought for freedom.
The fought for  better labor standards, the right to organize  and a living environment that doesn't feature air pollution and water filled with human feces.
I'll be damned if I'll sit here and listen to your nonsense about saving a few bucks and embracing the race to the bottom.
Fuck you for pissing on the graves of all those who fought and died so you could sit smugly at your keyboard and talk about saving a few bucks.Fuck you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28521631</id>
	<title>Re:My observations.</title>
	<author>CodeBuster</author>
	<datestamp>1246278420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That's what certain executive-types are trying to do to technology.</p></div><p>Perhaps someone should point out that executives are vulnerable to the same sort of "competition". We have all seen the stories in the news of CEOs getting million dollar bonuses while losing billions of dollars. I may not have an MBA from Wharton, but I don't need a fancy degree in order to be paid millions so that I can <b>lose</b> billions. Hire back the engineers to run these companies; we know how to design, build, and run the most complex systems ever put together by man and we could hardly do worse than those knuckle draggers currently inhabiting those executive suites and boardrooms.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's what certain executive-types are trying to do to technology.Perhaps someone should point out that executives are vulnerable to the same sort of " competition " .
We have all seen the stories in the news of CEOs getting million dollar bonuses while losing billions of dollars .
I may not have an MBA from Wharton , but I do n't need a fancy degree in order to be paid millions so that I can lose billions .
Hire back the engineers to run these companies ; we know how to design , build , and run the most complex systems ever put together by man and we could hardly do worse than those knuckle draggers currently inhabiting those executive suites and boardrooms .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's what certain executive-types are trying to do to technology.Perhaps someone should point out that executives are vulnerable to the same sort of "competition".
We have all seen the stories in the news of CEOs getting million dollar bonuses while losing billions of dollars.
I may not have an MBA from Wharton, but I don't need a fancy degree in order to be paid millions so that I can lose billions.
Hire back the engineers to run these companies; we know how to design, build, and run the most complex systems ever put together by man and we could hardly do worse than those knuckle draggers currently inhabiting those executive suites and boardrooms.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417629</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419113</id>
	<title>Re:India: The skrypt kiddies of programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245669540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not about getting better quality. It's about getting "good enough to sell"-quality. It's about scamming your customers, basically.</p><p>As long as a company can pretend that the stuff they make is of top quality, in their commercials etc., the customers are never going to notice the difference between good quality code and code that barely works. They have no idea, and therefore it is not cost effective to spend lots on getting quality. Cost-effectiveness is the only thing that truly matters. Quality is a PERCEPTION, which can be "managed" by clever marketing.</p><p>Sucks, don't it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not about getting better quality .
It 's about getting " good enough to sell " -quality .
It 's about scamming your customers , basically.As long as a company can pretend that the stuff they make is of top quality , in their commercials etc. , the customers are never going to notice the difference between good quality code and code that barely works .
They have no idea , and therefore it is not cost effective to spend lots on getting quality .
Cost-effectiveness is the only thing that truly matters .
Quality is a PERCEPTION , which can be " managed " by clever marketing.Sucks , do n't it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not about getting better quality.
It's about getting "good enough to sell"-quality.
It's about scamming your customers, basically.As long as a company can pretend that the stuff they make is of top quality, in their commercials etc., the customers are never going to notice the difference between good quality code and code that barely works.
They have no idea, and therefore it is not cost effective to spend lots on getting quality.
Cost-effectiveness is the only thing that truly matters.
Quality is a PERCEPTION, which can be "managed" by clever marketing.Sucks, don't it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417683</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28423279</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245689340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>AMEN! Brother.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>AMEN !
Brother .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>AMEN!
Brother.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422475</id>
	<title>results of MSFT doing large aiutsourcing obvious</title>
	<author>peter303</author>
	<datestamp>1245686520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>MSFT has have mostly boring and buggy products for years, and will will continue to do so.</htmltext>
<tokenext>MSFT has have mostly boring and buggy products for years , and will will continue to do so .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>MSFT has have mostly boring and buggy products for years, and will will continue to do so.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418503</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245664260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>switch to classic view in prefs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>switch to classic view in prefs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>switch to classic view in prefs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28432687</id>
	<title>Re:Indian hypocrisy is palpable</title>
	<author>laddiebuck</author>
	<datestamp>1245679860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>India's pleased as Punch about the guest workers in America, same as all the African countries about relatives in Europe. Reason: funds sent home are a significant chunk of their GDP.<br> <br>

The West has a collective guilt about colonialism and racism, which still hinders real candour. Frankly, racism existed on both sides, and there is as much about colonialism to be proud of as to be ashamed of, especially for the more liberal empires like Britain and Belgium. America does have a real history of buggering things up with respect to the non-European world, but it also has plenty of things to be proud of, often things undertaken by private citizens.<br> <br>

What's the point? The West must forget the guilt, and non-Western countries will stop taking advantage of it. Until then, frankly, it is not a bad thing, because the West is pretty rich, and money going from the West to the rest of the world, though it go into countries not half so democratic and liberal, is not a bad thing.</htmltext>
<tokenext>India 's pleased as Punch about the guest workers in America , same as all the African countries about relatives in Europe .
Reason : funds sent home are a significant chunk of their GDP .
The West has a collective guilt about colonialism and racism , which still hinders real candour .
Frankly , racism existed on both sides , and there is as much about colonialism to be proud of as to be ashamed of , especially for the more liberal empires like Britain and Belgium .
America does have a real history of buggering things up with respect to the non-European world , but it also has plenty of things to be proud of , often things undertaken by private citizens .
What 's the point ?
The West must forget the guilt , and non-Western countries will stop taking advantage of it .
Until then , frankly , it is not a bad thing , because the West is pretty rich , and money going from the West to the rest of the world , though it go into countries not half so democratic and liberal , is not a bad thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>India's pleased as Punch about the guest workers in America, same as all the African countries about relatives in Europe.
Reason: funds sent home are a significant chunk of their GDP.
The West has a collective guilt about colonialism and racism, which still hinders real candour.
Frankly, racism existed on both sides, and there is as much about colonialism to be proud of as to be ashamed of, especially for the more liberal empires like Britain and Belgium.
America does have a real history of buggering things up with respect to the non-European world, but it also has plenty of things to be proud of, often things undertaken by private citizens.
What's the point?
The West must forget the guilt, and non-Western countries will stop taking advantage of it.
Until then, frankly, it is not a bad thing, because the West is pretty rich, and money going from the West to the rest of the world, though it go into countries not half so democratic and liberal, is not a bad thing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420433</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421713</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245684060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The reason your typical Dell computer costs $400 is because they can ship part of the costs of support out to India.</p></div><p><nobr> <wbr></nobr>... And the reason that Dell commercial support had to be pulled <b>back</b> from India was because the Indian support was considered inferior by the US business customers.</p><p>Personally, I think it's great that we can get so many of the basics of life for so little these days, and in the process provide much-needed revenue to people who never had it so good.</p><p>But I did pay more (gladly) for furniture made of honest wood instead of particle-board that falls apart whenever I set a wet glass on it. The problem with IT is that they want EVERYTHING made of particle board.</p><p>Last night my wife went web-shopping. She didn't buy anything. Of the 5 sites she visited, not <i>one</i> of them worked well enough to be able to take a basic order. In other words, <i>they literally turned her away with cash in hand.</i></p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The reason your typical Dell computer costs $ 400 is because they can ship part of the costs of support out to India .
... And the reason that Dell commercial support had to be pulled back from India was because the Indian support was considered inferior by the US business customers.Personally , I think it 's great that we can get so many of the basics of life for so little these days , and in the process provide much-needed revenue to people who never had it so good.But I did pay more ( gladly ) for furniture made of honest wood instead of particle-board that falls apart whenever I set a wet glass on it .
The problem with IT is that they want EVERYTHING made of particle board.Last night my wife went web-shopping .
She did n't buy anything .
Of the 5 sites she visited , not one of them worked well enough to be able to take a basic order .
In other words , they literally turned her away with cash in hand .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The reason your typical Dell computer costs $400 is because they can ship part of the costs of support out to India.
... And the reason that Dell commercial support had to be pulled back from India was because the Indian support was considered inferior by the US business customers.Personally, I think it's great that we can get so many of the basics of life for so little these days, and in the process provide much-needed revenue to people who never had it so good.But I did pay more (gladly) for furniture made of honest wood instead of particle-board that falls apart whenever I set a wet glass on it.
The problem with IT is that they want EVERYTHING made of particle board.Last night my wife went web-shopping.
She didn't buy anything.
Of the 5 sites she visited, not one of them worked well enough to be able to take a basic order.
In other words, they literally turned her away with cash in hand.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417873</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>The Bungi</author>
	<datestamp>1245701580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>These always make me smile. Microsoft, the big bad outsourcer. You're going to move IBM as well? IBM is the largest consumer of L1 visas in the US. These are much more insidious than the evil H1-Bs, I suggest reading up on them.</p><p>I don't know if you've ever interacted with IBM - specifically IBM Global Services (aka IBM India), but lately I've been thinking that the only American left in that company is Palmisano. Everyone else has to be either Indian or Chinese. I jest - just slightly.</p><p>While you're at it, send all the large financial and services companies in the US. Heck, just transfer the entire Fortune 1000 over there. That will take care of your problems.</p><p>Oh and BTW, I love the "Ballmer was at it again" bit here. Any chance of the submitter actually mentioning which CEOs have lobbied Washington for increased quotas and more relaxed requirements? Naaah, that doesn't sell any ad impressions nowadays.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>These always make me smile .
Microsoft , the big bad outsourcer .
You 're going to move IBM as well ?
IBM is the largest consumer of L1 visas in the US .
These are much more insidious than the evil H1-Bs , I suggest reading up on them.I do n't know if you 've ever interacted with IBM - specifically IBM Global Services ( aka IBM India ) , but lately I 've been thinking that the only American left in that company is Palmisano .
Everyone else has to be either Indian or Chinese .
I jest - just slightly.While you 're at it , send all the large financial and services companies in the US .
Heck , just transfer the entire Fortune 1000 over there .
That will take care of your problems.Oh and BTW , I love the " Ballmer was at it again " bit here .
Any chance of the submitter actually mentioning which CEOs have lobbied Washington for increased quotas and more relaxed requirements ?
Naaah , that does n't sell any ad impressions nowadays .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These always make me smile.
Microsoft, the big bad outsourcer.
You're going to move IBM as well?
IBM is the largest consumer of L1 visas in the US.
These are much more insidious than the evil H1-Bs, I suggest reading up on them.I don't know if you've ever interacted with IBM - specifically IBM Global Services (aka IBM India), but lately I've been thinking that the only American left in that company is Palmisano.
Everyone else has to be either Indian or Chinese.
I jest - just slightly.While you're at it, send all the large financial and services companies in the US.
Heck, just transfer the entire Fortune 1000 over there.
That will take care of your problems.Oh and BTW, I love the "Ballmer was at it again" bit here.
Any chance of the submitter actually mentioning which CEOs have lobbied Washington for increased quotas and more relaxed requirements?
Naaah, that doesn't sell any ad impressions nowadays.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417415</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418847</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245667380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...trust a story about outsourcing to get the racist bastards to come crawling about the woodwork.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list .
...trust a story about outsourcing to get the racist bastards to come crawling about the woodwork .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list.
...trust a story about outsourcing to get the racist bastards to come crawling about the woodwork.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417769</id>
	<title>Ownership</title>
	<author>LKM</author>
	<datestamp>1245614160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think the gist of it is that a lot of "western" software engineers don't want to work as "code monkeys"; programmers just doing their job without any sense of ownership of the project. I don't want to disparage people doing that job, but great software requires that programmers have a sense of ownership of the project and their code. I don't think the "top down" style of software engineering - where you have a few project leaders and an army of willing coders - is going to yield the same product quality as a smaller team of programmers who own part of their project and may not be as easy to guide.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the gist of it is that a lot of " western " software engineers do n't want to work as " code monkeys " ; programmers just doing their job without any sense of ownership of the project .
I do n't want to disparage people doing that job , but great software requires that programmers have a sense of ownership of the project and their code .
I do n't think the " top down " style of software engineering - where you have a few project leaders and an army of willing coders - is going to yield the same product quality as a smaller team of programmers who own part of their project and may not be as easy to guide .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the gist of it is that a lot of "western" software engineers don't want to work as "code monkeys"; programmers just doing their job without any sense of ownership of the project.
I don't want to disparage people doing that job, but great software requires that programmers have a sense of ownership of the project and their code.
I don't think the "top down" style of software engineering - where you have a few project leaders and an army of willing coders - is going to yield the same product quality as a smaller team of programmers who own part of their project and may not be as easy to guide.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28423143</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>claytongulick</author>
	<datestamp>1245688920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>For a long time now I've been wondering where/how developers from India have gotten a reputation for being more highly trained and "smarter" than their American counterparts.<br> <br>

My evidence in purely anecdotal, but I've been a developer for a long time now (working on 13 years professionally) and have worked with tons of developers from India, both remotely (overseas) and locally hired.<br> <br>

What I have seen are people who claim to have masters degrees but are utterly incompetent - I've seen them trying to solve extremely simple problems by calling into some sort of support number and having someone in India (I assume) walk them through the problem remotely and tell them what to type into the IDE. Seriously.<br> <br>

I've had to deal with guys who were so unbelievably arrogant (apparently they were some sort of royalty in India) they couldn't sit and listen through an entire sentence without interrupting, yelling and generally making asses out of themselves. And this was when they were asking me for help! It takes almost superhuman patience to deal with.<br> <br>

In 13 years I've only ever met one programmer from India whom I would consider competent (and he was actually much smarter than I am) but he was such a jerk it was impossible to have a discussion with him, even to explain basic requirements.<br> <br>

I used to think that this was just a cultural thing, or a language barrier, or that I was just working with the worst people - getting unlucky - but over the years it has just gotten worse, not better.<br> <br>

I've been waiting patiently for the backlash against outsourcing to develop as businesses realize that the cost of outsourcing projects is actually 3X not 1/3, but while I've seen a very mild trend toward this - it hasn't been anything like the tidal wave I'm expecting.<br> <br>

To be fair, I'm pretty disappointed with the American programmers I've worked with as well (with some notable exceptions), but by and large I've been able to work with them, explain issues, have issues explained to me and eventually get the job done. <br> <br>

I think there is a fundamental problem in software development today (here comes the 'get off my lawn' rant) that is not localized to any one country: programmers aren't nerds anymore.<br> <br>

See, in the old days (back when I was a kid) programming was magical and elite and only the best and brightest would even try. It was new and respected, and drew the types of people who were willing to spend endless hours painstakingly gnawing at a problem until they had a solution - then deleting it all and redoing it when they discovered a better one; and this was done for fun, as a hobby!<br> <br>

Now (like so many other things) businesses try to commoditize it, fit it into rigid processes, categorize and quantify it. I can understand the impetus and motivation behind this: as a business it sucks to be dependent on magicians and magic - but I think it has lead to a decline in talent locally and globally. <br> <br>

A business would generally rather have a predictable, repeatable process - even if it costs 5-10 times as much - than to be forced to rely on individual talented people. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that there is a global market claiming that they can provide that sort of predictability and dependability, and that businesses are naive enough to believe it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>For a long time now I 've been wondering where/how developers from India have gotten a reputation for being more highly trained and " smarter " than their American counterparts .
My evidence in purely anecdotal , but I 've been a developer for a long time now ( working on 13 years professionally ) and have worked with tons of developers from India , both remotely ( overseas ) and locally hired .
What I have seen are people who claim to have masters degrees but are utterly incompetent - I 've seen them trying to solve extremely simple problems by calling into some sort of support number and having someone in India ( I assume ) walk them through the problem remotely and tell them what to type into the IDE .
Seriously . I 've had to deal with guys who were so unbelievably arrogant ( apparently they were some sort of royalty in India ) they could n't sit and listen through an entire sentence without interrupting , yelling and generally making asses out of themselves .
And this was when they were asking me for help !
It takes almost superhuman patience to deal with .
In 13 years I 've only ever met one programmer from India whom I would consider competent ( and he was actually much smarter than I am ) but he was such a jerk it was impossible to have a discussion with him , even to explain basic requirements .
I used to think that this was just a cultural thing , or a language barrier , or that I was just working with the worst people - getting unlucky - but over the years it has just gotten worse , not better .
I 've been waiting patiently for the backlash against outsourcing to develop as businesses realize that the cost of outsourcing projects is actually 3X not 1/3 , but while I 've seen a very mild trend toward this - it has n't been anything like the tidal wave I 'm expecting .
To be fair , I 'm pretty disappointed with the American programmers I 've worked with as well ( with some notable exceptions ) , but by and large I 've been able to work with them , explain issues , have issues explained to me and eventually get the job done .
I think there is a fundamental problem in software development today ( here comes the 'get off my lawn ' rant ) that is not localized to any one country : programmers are n't nerds anymore .
See , in the old days ( back when I was a kid ) programming was magical and elite and only the best and brightest would even try .
It was new and respected , and drew the types of people who were willing to spend endless hours painstakingly gnawing at a problem until they had a solution - then deleting it all and redoing it when they discovered a better one ; and this was done for fun , as a hobby !
Now ( like so many other things ) businesses try to commoditize it , fit it into rigid processes , categorize and quantify it .
I can understand the impetus and motivation behind this : as a business it sucks to be dependent on magicians and magic - but I think it has lead to a decline in talent locally and globally .
A business would generally rather have a predictable , repeatable process - even if it costs 5-10 times as much - than to be forced to rely on individual talented people .
I guess I should n't be surprised that there is a global market claiming that they can provide that sort of predictability and dependability , and that businesses are naive enough to believe it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For a long time now I've been wondering where/how developers from India have gotten a reputation for being more highly trained and "smarter" than their American counterparts.
My evidence in purely anecdotal, but I've been a developer for a long time now (working on 13 years professionally) and have worked with tons of developers from India, both remotely (overseas) and locally hired.
What I have seen are people who claim to have masters degrees but are utterly incompetent - I've seen them trying to solve extremely simple problems by calling into some sort of support number and having someone in India (I assume) walk them through the problem remotely and tell them what to type into the IDE.
Seriously. 

I've had to deal with guys who were so unbelievably arrogant (apparently they were some sort of royalty in India) they couldn't sit and listen through an entire sentence without interrupting, yelling and generally making asses out of themselves.
And this was when they were asking me for help!
It takes almost superhuman patience to deal with.
In 13 years I've only ever met one programmer from India whom I would consider competent (and he was actually much smarter than I am) but he was such a jerk it was impossible to have a discussion with him, even to explain basic requirements.
I used to think that this was just a cultural thing, or a language barrier, or that I was just working with the worst people - getting unlucky - but over the years it has just gotten worse, not better.
I've been waiting patiently for the backlash against outsourcing to develop as businesses realize that the cost of outsourcing projects is actually 3X not 1/3, but while I've seen a very mild trend toward this - it hasn't been anything like the tidal wave I'm expecting.
To be fair, I'm pretty disappointed with the American programmers I've worked with as well (with some notable exceptions), but by and large I've been able to work with them, explain issues, have issues explained to me and eventually get the job done.
I think there is a fundamental problem in software development today (here comes the 'get off my lawn' rant) that is not localized to any one country: programmers aren't nerds anymore.
See, in the old days (back when I was a kid) programming was magical and elite and only the best and brightest would even try.
It was new and respected, and drew the types of people who were willing to spend endless hours painstakingly gnawing at a problem until they had a solution - then deleting it all and redoing it when they discovered a better one; and this was done for fun, as a hobby!
Now (like so many other things) businesses try to commoditize it, fit it into rigid processes, categorize and quantify it.
I can understand the impetus and motivation behind this: as a business it sucks to be dependent on magicians and magic - but I think it has lead to a decline in talent locally and globally.
A business would generally rather have a predictable, repeatable process - even if it costs 5-10 times as much - than to be forced to rely on individual talented people.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that there is a global market claiming that they can provide that sort of predictability and dependability, and that businesses are naive enough to believe it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417441</id>
	<title>ORLY?</title>
	<author>node159</author>
	<datestamp>1245611580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>From my experience the experienced tech employees from developing economies are unwilling to implement, let alone master the 'boring' details of tech process and methodology' let alone their less experienced colleagues.</p><p>America doesn't hold a monopoly on incompetence you know.</p><p>All I have to say is 'Citation Needed' Mr Nayar.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>From my experience the experienced tech employees from developing economies are unwilling to implement , let alone master the 'boring ' details of tech process and methodology ' let alone their less experienced colleagues.America does n't hold a monopoly on incompetence you know.All I have to say is 'Citation Needed ' Mr Nayar .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From my experience the experienced tech employees from developing economies are unwilling to implement, let alone master the 'boring' details of tech process and methodology' let alone their less experienced colleagues.America doesn't hold a monopoly on incompetence you know.All I have to say is 'Citation Needed' Mr Nayar.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28423783</id>
	<title>Re:#1:</title>
	<author>Red Flayer</author>
	<datestamp>1245691080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>My impression is that India's massive underclass keeps the cost of living down, which allows the next higher class to also live cheaply.</p></div></blockquote><p>There's also the fact that the lower classes can be employed by more well-to-do Indians as household servants.<br> <br>I've considered relocating to India, and still might at some point (once my kids are out of school).  Because all the positives of living in the US barely add up to the positives of being able to afford a villa, and a cook, a maid, a laundress, and an errand boy on a salary of US$75k a year.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>My impression is that India 's massive underclass keeps the cost of living down , which allows the next higher class to also live cheaply.There 's also the fact that the lower classes can be employed by more well-to-do Indians as household servants .
I 've considered relocating to India , and still might at some point ( once my kids are out of school ) .
Because all the positives of living in the US barely add up to the positives of being able to afford a villa , and a cook , a maid , a laundress , and an errand boy on a salary of US $ 75k a year .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My impression is that India's massive underclass keeps the cost of living down, which allows the next higher class to also live cheaply.There's also the fact that the lower classes can be employed by more well-to-do Indians as household servants.
I've considered relocating to India, and still might at some point (once my kids are out of school).
Because all the positives of living in the US barely add up to the positives of being able to afford a villa, and a cook, a maid, a laundress, and an errand boy on a salary of US$75k a year.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417915</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418347</id>
	<title>Re:Unemployable?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245662700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is the same old crap I always keep hearing. FYI, Indian software engineers are one of the most spoiled kids in the city. Hard to imagine them not having running water, living in mud houses, not having cars, LCD TVs, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is the same old crap I always keep hearing .
FYI , Indian software engineers are one of the most spoiled kids in the city .
Hard to imagine them not having running water , living in mud houses , not having cars , LCD TVs , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is the same old crap I always keep hearing.
FYI, Indian software engineers are one of the most spoiled kids in the city.
Hard to imagine them not having running water, living in mud houses, not having cars, LCD TVs, etc.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417645</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417831</id>
	<title>Sure they are unemployable</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1245701220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At least at the rates you'd pay to someone in India. Ya know, it's kinda hard to survive on 500 bucks a month here...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At least at the rates you 'd pay to someone in India .
Ya know , it 's kinda hard to survive on 500 bucks a month here.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At least at the rates you'd pay to someone in India.
Ya know, it's kinda hard to survive on 500 bucks a month here...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417729</id>
	<title>'walking the extra mile'</title>
	<author>jsse</author>
	<datestamp>1245613860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>of bugs and loopholes?
<br> <br>
That explains everything...</htmltext>
<tokenext>of bugs and loopholes ?
That explains everything.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>of bugs and loopholes?
That explains everything...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418949</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Aceticon</author>
	<datestamp>1245668340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My experience with working with remote resources in India has lead me to believe that over there what's happening is the same as what's happened in developed countries during the Internet boom:</p><ul><li>There is a high demand for technology services (a significant slice of the IT work in at least the US and the UK is sent there + all the IT work that needs to be done in India) and a restricted supply of people (India might be a big country, but the number of people trained in IT is a tiny percentage).</li><li>Because of this, salaries are (compared to local salaries) very high and there is a lot of competition for people.</li><li>This has attracted to IT a large number of people which aren't any got at IT work and would never gone for it otherwise. The end results is that the small core of world class IT professionals is surrounded by vast masses of mediocre IT people.</li><li>On top of that the Peter Principle is hard at work: the really competent people are quickly promoted (they either get promoted internally or just leave for somewhere else where they get a promotion) and eventually end up in management where most of them don't really know what they're doing.</li></ul><p>This exactly what was happening during the Internet boom - I was working in a consultancy at the time and remember that people were literally being picked up fresh from the University and put in projects for clients as "Senior Developers" and that (due to the way pay grades for techies were always below those for management) some of our best Software Engineers where quickly promoted to management, the vast majority of them turning out to be completely inept at managing people.</p><p>Certainly the picture that I see every day from the software developers I work with in Mumbai is that almost all of them are quite bad and the one that was any good got promoted to management where he is not that great.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My experience with working with remote resources in India has lead me to believe that over there what 's happening is the same as what 's happened in developed countries during the Internet boom : There is a high demand for technology services ( a significant slice of the IT work in at least the US and the UK is sent there + all the IT work that needs to be done in India ) and a restricted supply of people ( India might be a big country , but the number of people trained in IT is a tiny percentage ) .Because of this , salaries are ( compared to local salaries ) very high and there is a lot of competition for people.This has attracted to IT a large number of people which are n't any got at IT work and would never gone for it otherwise .
The end results is that the small core of world class IT professionals is surrounded by vast masses of mediocre IT people.On top of that the Peter Principle is hard at work : the really competent people are quickly promoted ( they either get promoted internally or just leave for somewhere else where they get a promotion ) and eventually end up in management where most of them do n't really know what they 're doing.This exactly what was happening during the Internet boom - I was working in a consultancy at the time and remember that people were literally being picked up fresh from the University and put in projects for clients as " Senior Developers " and that ( due to the way pay grades for techies were always below those for management ) some of our best Software Engineers where quickly promoted to management , the vast majority of them turning out to be completely inept at managing people.Certainly the picture that I see every day from the software developers I work with in Mumbai is that almost all of them are quite bad and the one that was any good got promoted to management where he is not that great .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My experience with working with remote resources in India has lead me to believe that over there what's happening is the same as what's happened in developed countries during the Internet boom:There is a high demand for technology services (a significant slice of the IT work in at least the US and the UK is sent there + all the IT work that needs to be done in India) and a restricted supply of people (India might be a big country, but the number of people trained in IT is a tiny percentage).Because of this, salaries are (compared to local salaries) very high and there is a lot of competition for people.This has attracted to IT a large number of people which aren't any got at IT work and would never gone for it otherwise.
The end results is that the small core of world class IT professionals is surrounded by vast masses of mediocre IT people.On top of that the Peter Principle is hard at work: the really competent people are quickly promoted (they either get promoted internally or just leave for somewhere else where they get a promotion) and eventually end up in management where most of them don't really know what they're doing.This exactly what was happening during the Internet boom - I was working in a consultancy at the time and remember that people were literally being picked up fresh from the University and put in projects for clients as "Senior Developers" and that (due to the way pay grades for techies were always below those for management) some of our best Software Engineers where quickly promoted to management, the vast majority of them turning out to be completely inept at managing people.Certainly the picture that I see every day from the software developers I work with in Mumbai is that almost all of them are quite bad and the one that was any good got promoted to management where he is not that great.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421221</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Main Gauche</author>
	<datestamp>1245682500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>According to the summary, it appears they <i>didn't</i>.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>According to the summary , it appears they did n't .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>According to the summary, it appears they didn't.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418307</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419385</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>master\_p</author>
	<datestamp>1245671880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It does not work. You have to press 'change' in order to get rid of the problems.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It does not work .
You have to press 'change ' in order to get rid of the problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It does not work.
You have to press 'change' in order to get rid of the problems.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418485</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421419</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Sleepy</author>
	<datestamp>1245683160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Dugg for being insightful.</p><p>Oh, wait...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Dugg for being insightful.Oh , wait.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dugg for being insightful.Oh, wait...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419207</id>
	<title>It isn't that Americans are not employable</title>
	<author>Shivetya</author>
	<datestamp>1245670320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>it is that many colleges are not setup to deliver people with an education that gives them the skills necessary to work.  Oh sure, they know this language or that language and some "college specified" fundamentals but damn it doesn't make them good, let alone god which some come off as thinking they are.</p><p>Actually that last line may be more in line with what this guy is really saying : They don't listen.  Too full of ideas after a few days on the job they don't give time to understand why things work they way they do they only assume all the old timers are dolts and they could fix everything if anyone would just listen.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>it is that many colleges are not setup to deliver people with an education that gives them the skills necessary to work .
Oh sure , they know this language or that language and some " college specified " fundamentals but damn it does n't make them good , let alone god which some come off as thinking they are.Actually that last line may be more in line with what this guy is really saying : They do n't listen .
Too full of ideas after a few days on the job they do n't give time to understand why things work they way they do they only assume all the old timers are dolts and they could fix everything if anyone would just listen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>it is that many colleges are not setup to deliver people with an education that gives them the skills necessary to work.
Oh sure, they know this language or that language and some "college specified" fundamentals but damn it doesn't make them good, let alone god which some come off as thinking they are.Actually that last line may be more in line with what this guy is really saying : They don't listen.
Too full of ideas after a few days on the job they don't give time to understand why things work they way they do they only assume all the old timers are dolts and they could fix everything if anyone would just listen.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417817</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245701100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That money came from banks who threw as much as you wanted at you provided you put up your house as collateral.</p><p>How it works now, where the real estate bubble popped and banks cling to money like it's worth anything anymore is beyond me, though.</p><p>But<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... maybe <i>just because</i> banks stopped handing out money like crazy, people can't spend anymore, got no job or got laid off, and the economy is in the gutter? I don't want to say that spending money you don't have is any good, nor do I say that banks should hand any bum money for nothing (and, face it, giving you money for a house that's already drowned in mortgage is 'for nothing'). But what some people don't understand is that the economy can only thrive if people have money to spend. To have money to spend, people need jobs. To make "everyone" have a job <i>you effing have to stop shipping in more people</i>. It should be a no brainer.</p><p>One of the core reasons for the economy downturn is simply that companies tried to manufacture in China and India and sell in the US and Europe. That doesn't work. You give a little money to Chinese and Indian people who can basically survive (but not buy your fancy high tech, 'luxury' crap) and pay nothing to US and European people who should in turn buy it. Buy it with what money? People need jobs to earn money, to have money that they can spend. It is as simple as that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That money came from banks who threw as much as you wanted at you provided you put up your house as collateral.How it works now , where the real estate bubble popped and banks cling to money like it 's worth anything anymore is beyond me , though.But ... maybe just because banks stopped handing out money like crazy , people ca n't spend anymore , got no job or got laid off , and the economy is in the gutter ?
I do n't want to say that spending money you do n't have is any good , nor do I say that banks should hand any bum money for nothing ( and , face it , giving you money for a house that 's already drowned in mortgage is 'for nothing ' ) .
But what some people do n't understand is that the economy can only thrive if people have money to spend .
To have money to spend , people need jobs .
To make " everyone " have a job you effing have to stop shipping in more people .
It should be a no brainer.One of the core reasons for the economy downturn is simply that companies tried to manufacture in China and India and sell in the US and Europe .
That does n't work .
You give a little money to Chinese and Indian people who can basically survive ( but not buy your fancy high tech , 'luxury ' crap ) and pay nothing to US and European people who should in turn buy it .
Buy it with what money ?
People need jobs to earn money , to have money that they can spend .
It is as simple as that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That money came from banks who threw as much as you wanted at you provided you put up your house as collateral.How it works now, where the real estate bubble popped and banks cling to money like it's worth anything anymore is beyond me, though.But ... maybe just because banks stopped handing out money like crazy, people can't spend anymore, got no job or got laid off, and the economy is in the gutter?
I don't want to say that spending money you don't have is any good, nor do I say that banks should hand any bum money for nothing (and, face it, giving you money for a house that's already drowned in mortgage is 'for nothing').
But what some people don't understand is that the economy can only thrive if people have money to spend.
To have money to spend, people need jobs.
To make "everyone" have a job you effing have to stop shipping in more people.
It should be a no brainer.One of the core reasons for the economy downturn is simply that companies tried to manufacture in China and India and sell in the US and Europe.
That doesn't work.
You give a little money to Chinese and Indian people who can basically survive (but not buy your fancy high tech, 'luxury' crap) and pay nothing to US and European people who should in turn buy it.
Buy it with what money?
People need jobs to earn money, to have money that they can spend.
It is as simple as that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418171</id>
	<title>Fewer H1-B visas = Less American unemployment</title>
	<author>joe\_n\_bloe</author>
	<datestamp>1245704220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>People who call themselves Americans are campaigning for more H1-B visas when US employment is scratching 10 percent.</p><p>Amazing.</p><p>This is the sort of thing that makes me want to be a labor organizer. For all their faults, at least unions aren't just plain anti-American.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People who call themselves Americans are campaigning for more H1-B visas when US employment is scratching 10 percent.Amazing.This is the sort of thing that makes me want to be a labor organizer .
For all their faults , at least unions are n't just plain anti-American .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People who call themselves Americans are campaigning for more H1-B visas when US employment is scratching 10 percent.Amazing.This is the sort of thing that makes me want to be a labor organizer.
For all their faults, at least unions aren't just plain anti-American.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425893</id>
	<title>Amen to that!</title>
	<author>sgt\_doom</author>
	<datestamp>1245698340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In all the years in IT (formerly known as data processing), I've seldom - perhaps once - come in contact with an intelligent interviewer.  And those triple-Ph.D.s from India (at least that's why they claimed on there CVs) could never seem to compile any of their programs.  (And the only, I repeat ONLY, individual in an office setting I've ever witnessed break, actually break, that glass platen on a Xerox copy machine, was....from India!!!!!<p>American companies seldom hire intelligently in the past, and today virtually never.  The only things they know how to do are:</p><p>offshore jobs, inshore foreign scab workers, issue junk paper, and do leveraged buyouts ("pump and dumps") which destroy the target companies and employment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In all the years in IT ( formerly known as data processing ) , I 've seldom - perhaps once - come in contact with an intelligent interviewer .
And those triple-Ph.D.s from India ( at least that 's why they claimed on there CVs ) could never seem to compile any of their programs .
( And the only , I repeat ONLY , individual in an office setting I 've ever witnessed break , actually break , that glass platen on a Xerox copy machine , was....from India ! ! ! !
! American companies seldom hire intelligently in the past , and today virtually never .
The only things they know how to do are : offshore jobs , inshore foreign scab workers , issue junk paper , and do leveraged buyouts ( " pump and dumps " ) which destroy the target companies and employment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In all the years in IT (formerly known as data processing), I've seldom - perhaps once - come in contact with an intelligent interviewer.
And those triple-Ph.D.s from India (at least that's why they claimed on there CVs) could never seem to compile any of their programs.
(And the only, I repeat ONLY, individual in an office setting I've ever witnessed break, actually break, that glass platen on a Xerox copy machine, was....from India!!!!
!American companies seldom hire intelligently in the past, and today virtually never.
The only things they know how to do are:offshore jobs, inshore foreign scab workers, issue junk paper, and do leveraged buyouts ("pump and dumps") which destroy the target companies and employment.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419687</id>
	<title>wheres the white on black theme?</title>
	<author>cheekyboy</author>
	<datestamp>1245674340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In a dark room at night, ARGGGGGGGGGGGGG the white screen lights up the room and is<br>too bright and TOO CORPORATE , and NOT GEEKY.</p><p>Dude, since when is any geek/nerd site use a white background, ALL GEEKS use black backgrounds, with green text.</p><p>This is news for Rich Employed Corporate Geeks wanabee nerds.  Ahahaha.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In a dark room at night , ARGGGGGGGGGGGGG the white screen lights up the room and istoo bright and TOO CORPORATE , and NOT GEEKY.Dude , since when is any geek/nerd site use a white background , ALL GEEKS use black backgrounds , with green text.This is news for Rich Employed Corporate Geeks wanabee nerds .
Ahahaha .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In a dark room at night, ARGGGGGGGGGGGGG the white screen lights up the room and istoo bright and TOO CORPORATE , and NOT GEEKY.Dude, since when is any geek/nerd site use a white background, ALL GEEKS use black backgrounds, with green text.This is news for Rich Employed Corporate Geeks wanabee nerds.
Ahahaha.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418485</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420123</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>cheekyboy</author>
	<datestamp>1245677520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Property prices control everything. If rents are $2000/yr, then wages+costs are the highest component.<br>If rents to a shop are $90000, then wages represent a smaller portion. Now for a given $19dvd, the shop might take in 30\%, taxes for govt are 12-15\%, rent is probably 20\%, while profits are last.</p><p>If everyones rents are cheaper our need for more revenue is reduced. Thus we all win.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Property prices control everything .
If rents are $ 2000/yr , then wages + costs are the highest component.If rents to a shop are $ 90000 , then wages represent a smaller portion .
Now for a given $ 19dvd , the shop might take in 30 \ % , taxes for govt are 12-15 \ % , rent is probably 20 \ % , while profits are last.If everyones rents are cheaper our need for more revenue is reduced .
Thus we all win .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Property prices control everything.
If rents are $2000/yr, then wages+costs are the highest component.If rents to a shop are $90000, then wages represent a smaller portion.
Now for a given $19dvd, the shop might take in 30\%, taxes for govt are 12-15\%, rent is probably 20\%, while profits are last.If everyones rents are cheaper our need for more revenue is reduced.
Thus we all win.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418367</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422885</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>cockpitcomp</author>
	<datestamp>1245687900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I used to shop at Walmart, now I work there.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I used to shop at Walmart , now I work there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used to shop at Walmart, now I work there.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28427983</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245662040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Europeans are a race now?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Europeans are a race now ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Europeans are a race now?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418847</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422777</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245687600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Have you looked at the price of food there as well?</p><p>Maybe the reason things cost less there, is people have considerably less money. No point in selling something at high prices if no-one in the country can afford to buy it.</p><p>If you want them to start paying more for your goods, try paying them more than slave wages for their labour. That'll increase their standard of living and thereby up their cost of living.</p><p>This is like the main tenet of the free market religion I hear about on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. all the time. If the market can afford more, make it cost more. The reason your paying so much is that the top section of your society can afford so much.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Have you looked at the price of food there as well ? Maybe the reason things cost less there , is people have considerably less money .
No point in selling something at high prices if no-one in the country can afford to buy it.If you want them to start paying more for your goods , try paying them more than slave wages for their labour .
That 'll increase their standard of living and thereby up their cost of living.This is like the main tenet of the free market religion I hear about on / .
all the time .
If the market can afford more , make it cost more .
The reason your paying so much is that the top section of your society can afford so much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have you looked at the price of food there as well?Maybe the reason things cost less there, is people have considerably less money.
No point in selling something at high prices if no-one in the country can afford to buy it.If you want them to start paying more for your goods, try paying them more than slave wages for their labour.
That'll increase their standard of living and thereby up their cost of living.This is like the main tenet of the free market religion I hear about on /.
all the time.
If the market can afford more, make it cost more.
The reason your paying so much is that the top section of your society can afford so much.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417703</id>
	<title>People are the same</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245613740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work for a large medical company that has a call center in the US headquarters and have also been outsourcing their call center to India and Phillipines. From what I can tell from my observations, by the way I am not directly involved in the call center so my comments are not quantifiable, people anywhere eventually tire of working for shit jobs.</p><p>Perhaps people outside the US can last longer than their American counterparts, but over the course of time they eventually develop the same traits that cause them to be terminated as well. Bad attitude, lack of interest, insubordination, lack of job performance. A crap job is just that, if you are hungry then you may accept it, but once your basic needs are met you will realize you no longer wish to be in a crap job. Americans have their basic needs met more easily, than the countries mentioned so they tolerate a bad job in a less amount of time than people that have not eaten or had a decent place to live for many years of their life.</p><p>Complacency is human trait not just Americans.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work for a large medical company that has a call center in the US headquarters and have also been outsourcing their call center to India and Phillipines .
From what I can tell from my observations , by the way I am not directly involved in the call center so my comments are not quantifiable , people anywhere eventually tire of working for shit jobs.Perhaps people outside the US can last longer than their American counterparts , but over the course of time they eventually develop the same traits that cause them to be terminated as well .
Bad attitude , lack of interest , insubordination , lack of job performance .
A crap job is just that , if you are hungry then you may accept it , but once your basic needs are met you will realize you no longer wish to be in a crap job .
Americans have their basic needs met more easily , than the countries mentioned so they tolerate a bad job in a less amount of time than people that have not eaten or had a decent place to live for many years of their life.Complacency is human trait not just Americans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work for a large medical company that has a call center in the US headquarters and have also been outsourcing their call center to India and Phillipines.
From what I can tell from my observations, by the way I am not directly involved in the call center so my comments are not quantifiable, people anywhere eventually tire of working for shit jobs.Perhaps people outside the US can last longer than their American counterparts, but over the course of time they eventually develop the same traits that cause them to be terminated as well.
Bad attitude, lack of interest, insubordination, lack of job performance.
A crap job is just that, if you are hungry then you may accept it, but once your basic needs are met you will realize you no longer wish to be in a crap job.
Americans have their basic needs met more easily, than the countries mentioned so they tolerate a bad job in a less amount of time than people that have not eaten or had a decent place to live for many years of their life.Complacency is human trait not just Americans.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419757</id>
	<title>On the subject of H1-Bs...</title>
	<author>Xugumad</author>
	<datestamp>1245674880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Would you kindly ask you government why it's much MUCH easier to get an H1-B visa (so; move to the US, work for 3 years, then take half your earnings and all your experience home) than it is an EB-1, EB-2 or EB-3 ( <a href="http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=84096138f898d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&amp;vgnextchannel=4f719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD" title="uscis.gov">http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=84096138f898d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&amp;vgnextchannel=4f719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD</a> [uscis.gov] ) or similar visa for people who actually want to move full time to the US? EB-1-3 visa have waiting periods of about 3-4 years, vs 6 months for H1-B with 1 month express processing apparently an option...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Would you kindly ask you government why it 's much MUCH easier to get an H1-B visa ( so ; move to the US , work for 3 years , then take half your earnings and all your experience home ) than it is an EB-1 , EB-2 or EB-3 ( http : //www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/ ? vgnextoid = 84096138f898d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&amp;vgnextchannel = 4f719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD [ uscis.gov ] ) or similar visa for people who actually want to move full time to the US ?
EB-1-3 visa have waiting periods of about 3-4 years , vs 6 months for H1-B with 1 month express processing apparently an option.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Would you kindly ask you government why it's much MUCH easier to get an H1-B visa (so; move to the US, work for 3 years, then take half your earnings and all your experience home) than it is an EB-1, EB-2 or EB-3 ( http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=84096138f898d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&amp;vgnextchannel=4f719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD [uscis.gov] ) or similar visa for people who actually want to move full time to the US?
EB-1-3 visa have waiting periods of about 3-4 years, vs 6 months for H1-B with 1 month express processing apparently an option...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419531</id>
	<title>The truth</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245673020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The truth is that Indians are lying cheating pieces of crap who will sell their own mother to make a profit.  Of course they are going to say they are better than Americans.  The point here is to realize that everyone else shits on America and for some reason we cheer them on.  If you stand up for America  you are a protectionist. If you are a smelly Indian and steal someone else's job then you are the underdog hero.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The truth is that Indians are lying cheating pieces of crap who will sell their own mother to make a profit .
Of course they are going to say they are better than Americans .
The point here is to realize that everyone else shits on America and for some reason we cheer them on .
If you stand up for America you are a protectionist .
If you are a smelly Indian and steal someone else 's job then you are the underdog hero .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The truth is that Indians are lying cheating pieces of crap who will sell their own mother to make a profit.
Of course they are going to say they are better than Americans.
The point here is to realize that everyone else shits on America and for some reason we cheer them on.
If you stand up for America  you are a protectionist.
If you are a smelly Indian and steal someone else's job then you are the underdog hero.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419921</id>
	<title>Re:I'll guess I'll complain on Slashdot again</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245676140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Someone already implied as much in a longer post, but I'll add a slightly different angle: you need to figure out what is wrong with your CV, with your attitude, or with your skills, and FIX THEM.  Until you figure out what's wrong (in the perception of potential employers), you are unlikely to have a job breakthrough, especially with the economic situation now.  There is something unusual about having the kind of training and ability you describe, but not being employed for most of the last 7 years.  You need to figure it out.  (Complaining on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. isn't going to do it.)</p><p>Next time you go for a job interview, ask them really nicely if they would provide you with feedback regardless of whether or not you are selected for the job.  When they ask you if you have any questions, ask them what they thought of your presentation, and request that they be blunt about it.  Some interviewers will be hesitant or offer useless platitudes, others will be very, very honest and helpful, even if they are planning to reject your application.  If you aren't even being interviewed, ask people you know and trust to review your CV and be brutally frank with their comments.  If you've already tried that, try other people, because there is *something* wrong with it.  Whatever issues are identified, do everything you can to address them, or you're likely to keep getting the same results.</p><p>The first step to fixing the problem is figuring out what the problem is.  If you know what the problem is, but have decided not to address it, well, then you need to decide whether getting a job is really a priority in your life.</p><p>Good luck with your efforts.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Someone already implied as much in a longer post , but I 'll add a slightly different angle : you need to figure out what is wrong with your CV , with your attitude , or with your skills , and FIX THEM .
Until you figure out what 's wrong ( in the perception of potential employers ) , you are unlikely to have a job breakthrough , especially with the economic situation now .
There is something unusual about having the kind of training and ability you describe , but not being employed for most of the last 7 years .
You need to figure it out .
( Complaining on / .
is n't going to do it .
) Next time you go for a job interview , ask them really nicely if they would provide you with feedback regardless of whether or not you are selected for the job .
When they ask you if you have any questions , ask them what they thought of your presentation , and request that they be blunt about it .
Some interviewers will be hesitant or offer useless platitudes , others will be very , very honest and helpful , even if they are planning to reject your application .
If you are n't even being interviewed , ask people you know and trust to review your CV and be brutally frank with their comments .
If you 've already tried that , try other people , because there is * something * wrong with it .
Whatever issues are identified , do everything you can to address them , or you 're likely to keep getting the same results.The first step to fixing the problem is figuring out what the problem is .
If you know what the problem is , but have decided not to address it , well , then you need to decide whether getting a job is really a priority in your life.Good luck with your efforts .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Someone already implied as much in a longer post, but I'll add a slightly different angle: you need to figure out what is wrong with your CV, with your attitude, or with your skills, and FIX THEM.
Until you figure out what's wrong (in the perception of potential employers), you are unlikely to have a job breakthrough, especially with the economic situation now.
There is something unusual about having the kind of training and ability you describe, but not being employed for most of the last 7 years.
You need to figure it out.
(Complaining on /.
isn't going to do it.
)Next time you go for a job interview, ask them really nicely if they would provide you with feedback regardless of whether or not you are selected for the job.
When they ask you if you have any questions, ask them what they thought of your presentation, and request that they be blunt about it.
Some interviewers will be hesitant or offer useless platitudes, others will be very, very honest and helpful, even if they are planning to reject your application.
If you aren't even being interviewed, ask people you know and trust to review your CV and be brutally frank with their comments.
If you've already tried that, try other people, because there is *something* wrong with it.
Whatever issues are identified, do everything you can to address them, or you're likely to keep getting the same results.The first step to fixing the problem is figuring out what the problem is.
If you know what the problem is, but have decided not to address it, well, then you need to decide whether getting a job is really a priority in your life.Good luck with your efforts.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418351</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419401</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>master\_p</author>
	<datestamp>1245672000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are correct, and you have just revealed the hidden catch of free trade: if salaries are not equal across areas, free trade between those areas does not work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are correct , and you have just revealed the hidden catch of free trade : if salaries are not equal across areas , free trade between those areas does not work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are correct, and you have just revealed the hidden catch of free trade: if salaries are not equal across areas, free trade between those areas does not work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418367</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419451</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245672480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The US created these industries without massive immigration</p></div><p>Bull-fucking-shit. However you got to +5 Insightful is completely beyond me.</p><p>In my opinion, the main problem with the US is the sheer number of people paid to sell stuff to other people. An economy based on people selling to each other, and not producing cannot last. Fuck the Carnegie "secret", and all that other "you can do anything you want" shit. You guys need to make more stuff, and stop buying stuff you don't need.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The US created these industries without massive immigrationBull-fucking-shit .
However you got to + 5 Insightful is completely beyond me.In my opinion , the main problem with the US is the sheer number of people paid to sell stuff to other people .
An economy based on people selling to each other , and not producing can not last .
Fuck the Carnegie " secret " , and all that other " you can do anything you want " shit .
You guys need to make more stuff , and stop buying stuff you do n't need .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The US created these industries without massive immigrationBull-fucking-shit.
However you got to +5 Insightful is completely beyond me.In my opinion, the main problem with the US is the sheer number of people paid to sell stuff to other people.
An economy based on people selling to each other, and not producing cannot last.
Fuck the Carnegie "secret", and all that other "you can do anything you want" shit.
You guys need to make more stuff, and stop buying stuff you don't need.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417415</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418429</id>
	<title>Do Indian managers EVER hire Europeans?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245663540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work in Silicon Valley, was a consultant for most of the last 30 years.  Manager for about half that time.</p><p>I have hired lots of Indians, Chinese, Philipinos,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... no Indians have ever hired me.   My friends and I don't know of a case where an Indian has hired a European.  Some of the sharpest people I know have been rejected at companies like Brocade by Indian interviewers who pronounced them "not sharp enough".</p><p>Indians, generally, think Americans aren't much good.  I have had Indian teachers in a local college class remark to their class of non-Indians that their daughters would never marry Americans, as they aren't suitable -- not serious people, etc.  This was a standard attitude among Indian parents in private schools our kid has attended.</p><p>Judging people across a cultural divide is difficult.  Standard interviews are nearly useless in making hiring decisions (lots of research to this point), so most people are hired on some dimension of "we like him/her, he/she is like us".  Thus, the groups within Silicon Valley companies, and entire companies, who are all of one ethnic group, e.g. mainland Chinese, Taiwanese, Hindi speakers,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p><p>If we Europeans discriminated like that,  EEOE would be down our necks.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work in Silicon Valley , was a consultant for most of the last 30 years .
Manager for about half that time.I have hired lots of Indians , Chinese , Philipinos , ... no Indians have ever hired me .
My friends and I do n't know of a case where an Indian has hired a European .
Some of the sharpest people I know have been rejected at companies like Brocade by Indian interviewers who pronounced them " not sharp enough " .Indians , generally , think Americans are n't much good .
I have had Indian teachers in a local college class remark to their class of non-Indians that their daughters would never marry Americans , as they are n't suitable -- not serious people , etc .
This was a standard attitude among Indian parents in private schools our kid has attended.Judging people across a cultural divide is difficult .
Standard interviews are nearly useless in making hiring decisions ( lots of research to this point ) , so most people are hired on some dimension of " we like him/her , he/she is like us " .
Thus , the groups within Silicon Valley companies , and entire companies , who are all of one ethnic group , e.g .
mainland Chinese , Taiwanese , Hindi speakers , ...If we Europeans discriminated like that , EEOE would be down our necks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work in Silicon Valley, was a consultant for most of the last 30 years.
Manager for about half that time.I have hired lots of Indians, Chinese, Philipinos, ... no Indians have ever hired me.
My friends and I don't know of a case where an Indian has hired a European.
Some of the sharpest people I know have been rejected at companies like Brocade by Indian interviewers who pronounced them "not sharp enough".Indians, generally, think Americans aren't much good.
I have had Indian teachers in a local college class remark to their class of non-Indians that their daughters would never marry Americans, as they aren't suitable -- not serious people, etc.
This was a standard attitude among Indian parents in private schools our kid has attended.Judging people across a cultural divide is difficult.
Standard interviews are nearly useless in making hiring decisions (lots of research to this point), so most people are hired on some dimension of "we like him/her, he/she is like us".
Thus, the groups within Silicon Valley companies, and entire companies, who are all of one ethnic group, e.g.
mainland Chinese, Taiwanese, Hindi speakers, ...If we Europeans discriminated like that,  EEOE would be down our necks.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419589</id>
	<title>Re:My observations.</title>
	<author>Allador</author>
	<datestamp>1245673500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You'll suddenly find yourself working for minimum wage. That's what certain executive-types are trying to do to technology.</p></div><p>This process isnt some big evil conspiracy by the evil rich white men.</p><p>It's a fundamental phenomenon in (more or less) free market economies.</p><p>If a field makes more than the others, and anyone can enter, then people will continue to enter and drive down the price until there is no more inherent benefit to that field compared to others.</p><p>It doesnt require black-clad robber barons oppressing the weak for this to happen, it'll happen all by itself.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You 'll suddenly find yourself working for minimum wage .
That 's what certain executive-types are trying to do to technology.This process isnt some big evil conspiracy by the evil rich white men.It 's a fundamental phenomenon in ( more or less ) free market economies.If a field makes more than the others , and anyone can enter , then people will continue to enter and drive down the price until there is no more inherent benefit to that field compared to others.It doesnt require black-clad robber barons oppressing the weak for this to happen , it 'll happen all by itself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You'll suddenly find yourself working for minimum wage.
That's what certain executive-types are trying to do to technology.This process isnt some big evil conspiracy by the evil rich white men.It's a fundamental phenomenon in (more or less) free market economies.If a field makes more than the others, and anyone can enter, then people will continue to enter and drive down the price until there is no more inherent benefit to that field compared to others.It doesnt require black-clad robber barons oppressing the weak for this to happen, it'll happen all by itself.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417629</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418245</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245661740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not sure if it is a sensibility that is offended or a genuine fear that a job will be lost. No one seems to mind when when it is injection moulded plastic toy or a pair a jeans that is made in a developing economy.</p><p>But when programming is done there?</p><p>Even if you think that work they do is crap... it wont be crap for to long. remember how 'made in china' meant crap stuff... now it just means 'stuff'.  There are always issue when an economy takes on model of production that another country started.</p><p>"no wonder this chip failed... it says 'made in japan'!!!"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not sure if it is a sensibility that is offended or a genuine fear that a job will be lost .
No one seems to mind when when it is injection moulded plastic toy or a pair a jeans that is made in a developing economy.But when programming is done there ? Even if you think that work they do is crap... it wont be crap for to long .
remember how 'made in china ' meant crap stuff... now it just means 'stuff' .
There are always issue when an economy takes on model of production that another country started .
" no wonder this chip failed... it says 'made in japan ' ! ! !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not sure if it is a sensibility that is offended or a genuine fear that a job will be lost.
No one seems to mind when when it is injection moulded plastic toy or a pair a jeans that is made in a developing economy.But when programming is done there?Even if you think that work they do is crap... it wont be crap for to long.
remember how 'made in china' meant crap stuff... now it just means 'stuff'.
There are always issue when an economy takes on model of production that another country started.
"no wonder this chip failed... it says 'made in japan'!!!
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419485</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>xtracto</author>
	<datestamp>1245672780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I recommend re-reading parent post with the Apu Nahasapeemapetilon voice.</p><p>On a serious note, this was a very interesting read.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I recommend re-reading parent post with the Apu Nahasapeemapetilon voice.On a serious note , this was a very interesting read .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I recommend re-reading parent post with the Apu Nahasapeemapetilon voice.On a serious note, this was a very interesting read.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422419</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Rasperin</author>
	<datestamp>1245686340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No real way to hide that damn box though; I don't need it; and if I choose "Low Bandwidth" it makes it stretch across the top. Annoying as hell, lucky for me I'm doing something right because slashdot seems to run just fine for me except when posting a comment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No real way to hide that damn box though ; I do n't need it ; and if I choose " Low Bandwidth " it makes it stretch across the top .
Annoying as hell , lucky for me I 'm doing something right because slashdot seems to run just fine for me except when posting a comment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No real way to hide that damn box though; I don't need it; and if I choose "Low Bandwidth" it makes it stretch across the top.
Annoying as hell, lucky for me I'm doing something right because slashdot seems to run just fine for me except when posting a comment.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418485</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418627</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>mellon</author>
	<datestamp>1245665460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Excellent.   That leaves more for us...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Excellent .
That leaves more for us.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Excellent.
That leaves more for us...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419573</id>
	<title>100\% true</title>
	<author>circletimessquare</author>
	<datestamp>1245673380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>human beings are a form of capital. and when you have a lot of them, that capital goes down in value. it is yet another evil conclusion to overpopulation. you wonder why you should care about overpopulation somewhere else in the world. well, now you see why you should care: for certain types of job, they lower your career outlook, they decrease your salary by yolking you to their desperate calculus</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>human beings are a form of capital .
and when you have a lot of them , that capital goes down in value .
it is yet another evil conclusion to overpopulation .
you wonder why you should care about overpopulation somewhere else in the world .
well , now you see why you should care : for certain types of job , they lower your career outlook , they decrease your salary by yolking you to their desperate calculus</tokentext>
<sentencetext>human beings are a form of capital.
and when you have a lot of them, that capital goes down in value.
it is yet another evil conclusion to overpopulation.
you wonder why you should care about overpopulation somewhere else in the world.
well, now you see why you should care: for certain types of job, they lower your career outlook, they decrease your salary by yolking you to their desperate calculus</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417915</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418475</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>remmelt</author>
	<datestamp>1245663960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Name one computer part that has not been manufactured in, or has parts created in, China/India/Indonesia.</p><p>If you want to ride that moral high ground, get off the internet altogether, because you're supporting the Chinese eating babies by buying their capacitors.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Name one computer part that has not been manufactured in , or has parts created in , China/India/Indonesia.If you want to ride that moral high ground , get off the internet altogether , because you 're supporting the Chinese eating babies by buying their capacitors .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Name one computer part that has not been manufactured in, or has parts created in, China/India/Indonesia.If you want to ride that moral high ground, get off the internet altogether, because you're supporting the Chinese eating babies by buying their capacitors.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425165</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1245695760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>One of the main drawbacks of outsourcing overseas is that the company you are outsourcing to is free to lie about the qualifications of it's workers; you have no way of verifying their claims. What we currently have is a situation where they've gone from having 10,000 programmers to 1 million in a few years, yet they are still claiming that all their programmers have 10 years experience, when clearly this is not possible. It takes about 3 years experience to become an effective programmer, which means that the first companies to outsource to a given contractor are effectively paying to educate the foreign employees to be better skilled at future projects, not for results on the current project. Eventually, through experience gained from enough failed or marginal projects, the huge influx of new programmers will become skilled enough so that outsourcing will make good economic sense. But currently, in my experience, it is barely a break-even proposition. Getting more workers for less money isn't such a great bargain when they never successfully complete a project. There are thousands of highly skilled programmers in India, but they are already fully utilized. If you are writing a new outsourcing contract today, guess what -- you are NOT going to get the highly skilled programmers working on your project!</htmltext>
<tokenext>One of the main drawbacks of outsourcing overseas is that the company you are outsourcing to is free to lie about the qualifications of it 's workers ; you have no way of verifying their claims .
What we currently have is a situation where they 've gone from having 10,000 programmers to 1 million in a few years , yet they are still claiming that all their programmers have 10 years experience , when clearly this is not possible .
It takes about 3 years experience to become an effective programmer , which means that the first companies to outsource to a given contractor are effectively paying to educate the foreign employees to be better skilled at future projects , not for results on the current project .
Eventually , through experience gained from enough failed or marginal projects , the huge influx of new programmers will become skilled enough so that outsourcing will make good economic sense .
But currently , in my experience , it is barely a break-even proposition .
Getting more workers for less money is n't such a great bargain when they never successfully complete a project .
There are thousands of highly skilled programmers in India , but they are already fully utilized .
If you are writing a new outsourcing contract today , guess what -- you are NOT going to get the highly skilled programmers working on your project !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One of the main drawbacks of outsourcing overseas is that the company you are outsourcing to is free to lie about the qualifications of it's workers; you have no way of verifying their claims.
What we currently have is a situation where they've gone from having 10,000 programmers to 1 million in a few years, yet they are still claiming that all their programmers have 10 years experience, when clearly this is not possible.
It takes about 3 years experience to become an effective programmer, which means that the first companies to outsource to a given contractor are effectively paying to educate the foreign employees to be better skilled at future projects, not for results on the current project.
Eventually, through experience gained from enough failed or marginal projects, the huge influx of new programmers will become skilled enough so that outsourcing will make good economic sense.
But currently, in my experience, it is barely a break-even proposition.
Getting more workers for less money isn't such a great bargain when they never successfully complete a project.
There are thousands of highly skilled programmers in India, but they are already fully utilized.
If you are writing a new outsourcing contract today, guess what -- you are NOT going to get the highly skilled programmers working on your project!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422507</id>
	<title>Management Magic Bullets ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245686640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or maybe these outsourcing firms are too focused on these management magic bullets (ITIL, Six Sigma) ?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or maybe these outsourcing firms are too focused on these management magic bullets ( ITIL , Six Sigma ) ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or maybe these outsourcing firms are too focused on these management magic bullets (ITIL, Six Sigma) ?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418315</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Bluehorn</author>
	<datestamp>1245662400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Drugs-- $5.00 here, $0.10 there</p></div><p><div class="quote"><p>In a normal capitalistic society, we would be allowed to buy the 10 cent pills there and import them here and resell them for 20 cents.</p></div><p><div class="quote"><p>But the wealth here is literally being pumped out of the country- and the jobs too.</p></div><p>Sure! Do you really think that the $5.00 for your medicine is sent to the exporting company in india? Rubbish! In fact, in your scenario there will be at most 8 cent sent to india for the pills while $4.92 go into the pockets of your local pharma company.</p><p>Which will pay low wages to the few americans still on their balance sheet and move the remaining money to the managers. So the wealth is not pumped outside the country - it is just moved to the wealthy.</p><p>In real capitalism that won't be a problem since you could go and open up your own pharma company and sell the pills for 30 cents, pay 15 cents to the producer in india and still have a nice margin. BUT: Neither germany (where I live) nor the U.S. is implementing capitalism. There are just too many rules to stop new contenders from entering the market. And if a big company fails, the government will keep the dead body fresh by pumping the worker's money into it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Drugs-- $ 5.00 here , $ 0.10 thereIn a normal capitalistic society , we would be allowed to buy the 10 cent pills there and import them here and resell them for 20 cents.But the wealth here is literally being pumped out of the country- and the jobs too.Sure !
Do you really think that the $ 5.00 for your medicine is sent to the exporting company in india ?
Rubbish ! In fact , in your scenario there will be at most 8 cent sent to india for the pills while $ 4.92 go into the pockets of your local pharma company.Which will pay low wages to the few americans still on their balance sheet and move the remaining money to the managers .
So the wealth is not pumped outside the country - it is just moved to the wealthy.In real capitalism that wo n't be a problem since you could go and open up your own pharma company and sell the pills for 30 cents , pay 15 cents to the producer in india and still have a nice margin .
BUT : Neither germany ( where I live ) nor the U.S. is implementing capitalism .
There are just too many rules to stop new contenders from entering the market .
And if a big company fails , the government will keep the dead body fresh by pumping the worker 's money into it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Drugs-- $5.00 here, $0.10 thereIn a normal capitalistic society, we would be allowed to buy the 10 cent pills there and import them here and resell them for 20 cents.But the wealth here is literally being pumped out of the country- and the jobs too.Sure!
Do you really think that the $5.00 for your medicine is sent to the exporting company in india?
Rubbish! In fact, in your scenario there will be at most 8 cent sent to india for the pills while $4.92 go into the pockets of your local pharma company.Which will pay low wages to the few americans still on their balance sheet and move the remaining money to the managers.
So the wealth is not pumped outside the country - it is just moved to the wealthy.In real capitalism that won't be a problem since you could go and open up your own pharma company and sell the pills for 30 cents, pay 15 cents to the producer in india and still have a nice margin.
BUT: Neither germany (where I live) nor the U.S. is implementing capitalism.
There are just too many rules to stop new contenders from entering the market.
And if a big company fails, the government will keep the dead body fresh by pumping the worker's money into it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28423777</id>
	<title>Re:Unemployable?</title>
	<author>mikerjohnson</author>
	<datestamp>1245691020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I personally think that every job should have a wage that a person can live off of, "unskilled" or "skilled". If you want to see something funny, hand a CEO a floor buffer and watch him fumble about with it.</p></div><p>That would be a form of socialism.  If there is no incentive to make more by increasing your value, there is little incentive for innovation.  So maybe a CEO can't buff a floor.  How many people could you find that can buff a floor?  How many people could you find that could run a company?  The law of supply and demand rears its head again.

Of course you don't define how "a wage that a person can live off of" is calculated.  Does that mean if the person keeps taking out loans on new toys his pay goes up<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I personally think that every job should have a wage that a person can live off of , " unskilled " or " skilled " .
If you want to see something funny , hand a CEO a floor buffer and watch him fumble about with it.That would be a form of socialism .
If there is no incentive to make more by increasing your value , there is little incentive for innovation .
So maybe a CEO ca n't buff a floor .
How many people could you find that can buff a floor ?
How many people could you find that could run a company ?
The law of supply and demand rears its head again .
Of course you do n't define how " a wage that a person can live off of " is calculated .
Does that mean if the person keeps taking out loans on new toys his pay goes up : - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I personally think that every job should have a wage that a person can live off of, "unskilled" or "skilled".
If you want to see something funny, hand a CEO a floor buffer and watch him fumble about with it.That would be a form of socialism.
If there is no incentive to make more by increasing your value, there is little incentive for innovation.
So maybe a CEO can't buff a floor.
How many people could you find that can buff a floor?
How many people could you find that could run a company?
The law of supply and demand rears its head again.
Of course you don't define how "a wage that a person can live off of" is calculated.
Does that mean if the person keeps taking out loans on new toys his pay goes up :-)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417645</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418367</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>N1AK</author>
	<datestamp>1245662880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>There is *no* reason the clothes, drugs, movies, songs, etc. etc. should have that extreme of a price difference.</p></div></blockquote><p>Just because you haven't been able to think of the reason doesn't mean there isn't one.

<br> <br>To take the example of a DVD, only considering America and India. A film has a fixed cost of say $100 million to recoup from DVD sales, and each individual DVD has a cost of say $0.20 to produce and sell. If the DVD seller only sold at $19.99 in both countries then sales in India would be negligible, meaning that sales in America will need to cover the entire cost of both making the film and pressing the DVDs.

<br> <br>If they sold DVDs at $2.50 everywhere then the margin would be insufficient to cover their costs.

<br> <br>What you are ignoring is that the by selling the DVD in India at $2.50 the company knows it wont cover all the overhead costs, but it will cover some of them. If Indian sales generate $5 million then it lowers the amount they need to charge in America to make a profit by $5 million. If films etc weren't sold at a lower price in countries with lower wages then they would have higher prices in the countries where they are sold in order to cover the lost revenue.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is * no * reason the clothes , drugs , movies , songs , etc .
etc. should have that extreme of a price difference.Just because you have n't been able to think of the reason does n't mean there is n't one .
To take the example of a DVD , only considering America and India .
A film has a fixed cost of say $ 100 million to recoup from DVD sales , and each individual DVD has a cost of say $ 0.20 to produce and sell .
If the DVD seller only sold at $ 19.99 in both countries then sales in India would be negligible , meaning that sales in America will need to cover the entire cost of both making the film and pressing the DVDs .
If they sold DVDs at $ 2.50 everywhere then the margin would be insufficient to cover their costs .
What you are ignoring is that the by selling the DVD in India at $ 2.50 the company knows it wont cover all the overhead costs , but it will cover some of them .
If Indian sales generate $ 5 million then it lowers the amount they need to charge in America to make a profit by $ 5 million .
If films etc were n't sold at a lower price in countries with lower wages then they would have higher prices in the countries where they are sold in order to cover the lost revenue .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is *no* reason the clothes, drugs, movies, songs, etc.
etc. should have that extreme of a price difference.Just because you haven't been able to think of the reason doesn't mean there isn't one.
To take the example of a DVD, only considering America and India.
A film has a fixed cost of say $100 million to recoup from DVD sales, and each individual DVD has a cost of say $0.20 to produce and sell.
If the DVD seller only sold at $19.99 in both countries then sales in India would be negligible, meaning that sales in America will need to cover the entire cost of both making the film and pressing the DVDs.
If they sold DVDs at $2.50 everywhere then the margin would be insufficient to cover their costs.
What you are ignoring is that the by selling the DVD in India at $2.50 the company knows it wont cover all the overhead costs, but it will cover some of them.
If Indian sales generate $5 million then it lowers the amount they need to charge in America to make a profit by $5 million.
If films etc weren't sold at a lower price in countries with lower wages then they would have higher prices in the countries where they are sold in order to cover the lost revenue.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424091</id>
	<title>No, because the savings losses offset it.</title>
	<author>tjstork</author>
	<datestamp>1245692040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i> India has allowed us to save $0.05, $5, $50, maybe $500 on a consumer goods at the cost of our manufacturing base.</i></p><p>The problem is, the savings aren't actually real.  Assuming no currency manipulation, India's labor prices will be met as the US dollar declines in value.  What this means is that assets in the USA decline in value as well.  Sure, you might be able to buy a $500 consumer good for $200 because it was made by slave labor, but, the end result is that your house will be worth suddenly much less than it really is, because the value of the dollar will drop to match the disparity of pricing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>India has allowed us to save $ 0.05 , $ 5 , $ 50 , maybe $ 500 on a consumer goods at the cost of our manufacturing base.The problem is , the savings are n't actually real .
Assuming no currency manipulation , India 's labor prices will be met as the US dollar declines in value .
What this means is that assets in the USA decline in value as well .
Sure , you might be able to buy a $ 500 consumer good for $ 200 because it was made by slave labor , but , the end result is that your house will be worth suddenly much less than it really is , because the value of the dollar will drop to match the disparity of pricing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> India has allowed us to save $0.05, $5, $50, maybe $500 on a consumer goods at the cost of our manufacturing base.The problem is, the savings aren't actually real.
Assuming no currency manipulation, India's labor prices will be met as the US dollar declines in value.
What this means is that assets in the USA decline in value as well.
Sure, you might be able to buy a $500 consumer good for $200 because it was made by slave labor, but, the end result is that your house will be worth suddenly much less than it really is, because the value of the dollar will drop to match the disparity of pricing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419197</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245670260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is no such thing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is no such thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is no such thing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418485</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28428013</id>
	<title>Re: Please ignore this mad CEO</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245662160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Please ignore this idiot/racist CEO. He does not represent Indians and is just trying to use foolish( if not completely idiotic) methods to make his case or what ever he is trying to do, which obviously will not work.</p><p>As an Indian working in US, I greatly respect/appreciate all my American coworkers. Most of them are very intelligent/friendly ( more so than some Indians I have worked with in past). Even my class mates (American University) were some of the most intelligent folks I have worked with.</p><p>Only idiots think that a person is more intelligent just because he/she was born/studied in a particular country. Do not pay any attention to such a statement.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Please ignore this idiot/racist CEO .
He does not represent Indians and is just trying to use foolish ( if not completely idiotic ) methods to make his case or what ever he is trying to do , which obviously will not work.As an Indian working in US , I greatly respect/appreciate all my American coworkers .
Most of them are very intelligent/friendly ( more so than some Indians I have worked with in past ) .
Even my class mates ( American University ) were some of the most intelligent folks I have worked with.Only idiots think that a person is more intelligent just because he/she was born/studied in a particular country .
Do not pay any attention to such a statement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Please ignore this idiot/racist CEO.
He does not represent Indians and is just trying to use foolish( if not completely idiotic) methods to make his case or what ever he is trying to do, which obviously will not work.As an Indian working in US, I greatly respect/appreciate all my American coworkers.
Most of them are very intelligent/friendly ( more so than some Indians I have worked with in past).
Even my class mates (American University) were some of the most intelligent folks I have worked with.Only idiots think that a person is more intelligent just because he/she was born/studied in a particular country.
Do not pay any attention to such a statement.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417587</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>TheTurtlesMoves</author>
	<datestamp>1245612720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The money is coming from somewhere...</p></div><p>Don't you remember the economic meltdown? Turns out the money was, and still is, coming from nowhere.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The money is coming from somewhere...Do n't you remember the economic meltdown ?
Turns out the money was , and still is , coming from nowhere .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The money is coming from somewhere...Don't you remember the economic meltdown?
Turns out the money was, and still is, coming from nowhere.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418437</id>
	<title>Re:My observations.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245663600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes - but if you are the only lawyer in town, you'll g broke. If another lawyer comes to town, you'll both get rich.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes - but if you are the only lawyer in town , you 'll g broke .
If another lawyer comes to town , you 'll both get rich .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes - but if you are the only lawyer in town, you'll g broke.
If another lawyer comes to town, you'll both get rich.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417629</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418307</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>stargrazer</author>
	<datestamp>1245662340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Here, let me help bring your comment back on topic:

It seems like Slashdot has outsourced their coding.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here , let me help bring your comment back on topic : It seems like Slashdot has outsourced their coding .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here, let me help bring your comment back on topic:

It seems like Slashdot has outsourced their coding.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424805</id>
	<title>Unfair? Competition</title>
	<author>srobert</author>
	<datestamp>1245694500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's funny. Some of the comments here from college educated professionals with technical degrees are a little ironic. In my earlier life, I was a blue-collar tradesman and member of a union. I distinctly remember that when it was only the jobs of the working class that seemed threatened by competition from abroad (either through trade or immigration), that most of the professional class would respond that more competition would result in net higher living standards. Claims from the working class to the contrary were dismissed as ignorant of economics, and of the effects of comparative advantage. Now that it is your own professions that are threatened, I see that you are engaged in what you once considered "whining" by others.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's funny .
Some of the comments here from college educated professionals with technical degrees are a little ironic .
In my earlier life , I was a blue-collar tradesman and member of a union .
I distinctly remember that when it was only the jobs of the working class that seemed threatened by competition from abroad ( either through trade or immigration ) , that most of the professional class would respond that more competition would result in net higher living standards .
Claims from the working class to the contrary were dismissed as ignorant of economics , and of the effects of comparative advantage .
Now that it is your own professions that are threatened , I see that you are engaged in what you once considered " whining " by others .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's funny.
Some of the comments here from college educated professionals with technical degrees are a little ironic.
In my earlier life, I was a blue-collar tradesman and member of a union.
I distinctly remember that when it was only the jobs of the working class that seemed threatened by competition from abroad (either through trade or immigration), that most of the professional class would respond that more competition would result in net higher living standards.
Claims from the working class to the contrary were dismissed as ignorant of economics, and of the effects of comparative advantage.
Now that it is your own professions that are threatened, I see that you are engaged in what you once considered "whining" by others.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28432747</id>
	<title>Re:...News at 11.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245680160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is good to finally hear CEO's admitting incompetence in motivating a large part of their workforce to do the job they want to accomplish. In any 12 step process, the first step is admitting you have a problem.  Step 2 is to identify what could be causing the problem.  The financial incentives in working for a company are set up to motivate you to get on the management/executive track as soon as possible.  To do this, you must avoid being stereotyped as a great coder as the common misperception is that great coders have no social skills and are not management material.  So the financial incentives are constructed to induce you to be a mid to low end coder and to spend a lot of time chatting up the other people.  Perhaps you could try paying the coders 400 times their current salary and see how fast they improve.  Staying up to date in a fast moving field and keeping the ability to innovate requires dedicating a lot of your free time to study and monitoring the trends.  Perhaps you could reward developers who innovate and stay current with multi-million dollar bonuses and see how many stay current and how many innovations are generated.  You could fund this by eliminating some high level positions currently held by people not getting the job done.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is good to finally hear CEO 's admitting incompetence in motivating a large part of their workforce to do the job they want to accomplish .
In any 12 step process , the first step is admitting you have a problem .
Step 2 is to identify what could be causing the problem .
The financial incentives in working for a company are set up to motivate you to get on the management/executive track as soon as possible .
To do this , you must avoid being stereotyped as a great coder as the common misperception is that great coders have no social skills and are not management material .
So the financial incentives are constructed to induce you to be a mid to low end coder and to spend a lot of time chatting up the other people .
Perhaps you could try paying the coders 400 times their current salary and see how fast they improve .
Staying up to date in a fast moving field and keeping the ability to innovate requires dedicating a lot of your free time to study and monitoring the trends .
Perhaps you could reward developers who innovate and stay current with multi-million dollar bonuses and see how many stay current and how many innovations are generated .
You could fund this by eliminating some high level positions currently held by people not getting the job done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is good to finally hear CEO's admitting incompetence in motivating a large part of their workforce to do the job they want to accomplish.
In any 12 step process, the first step is admitting you have a problem.
Step 2 is to identify what could be causing the problem.
The financial incentives in working for a company are set up to motivate you to get on the management/executive track as soon as possible.
To do this, you must avoid being stereotyped as a great coder as the common misperception is that great coders have no social skills and are not management material.
So the financial incentives are constructed to induce you to be a mid to low end coder and to spend a lot of time chatting up the other people.
Perhaps you could try paying the coders 400 times their current salary and see how fast they improve.
Staying up to date in a fast moving field and keeping the ability to innovate requires dedicating a lot of your free time to study and monitoring the trends.
Perhaps you could reward developers who innovate and stay current with multi-million dollar bonuses and see how many stay current and how many innovations are generated.
You could fund this by eliminating some high level positions currently held by people not getting the job done.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417493</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417983</id>
	<title>But we have "rock stars"...</title>
	<author>malevolentjelly</author>
	<datestamp>1245702720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He's right... I absolutely hate that this guy is correct about this, but he is. I really hate to flash my social science background on slashdot, but here it goes:</p><p>There's been a trend in American society in the past couple decades towards "Helicopter parenting" and what could be considered a "participation trophy" society. We are a society that rewards mediocrity with enthusiasm and teaches every child to be a superstar. The downside to this is that we have a generation of workers who require constant affirmation and a high degree of reward for relatively small amounts of work.</p><p>Computer science is an engineering field, it does not require merely creativity and an artistic zeal but the steadiness of mind and capability of a traditional engineer, one who might design an engine, or build a bridge, even. It's not the technique of traditional engineering that computer science needs, but the character and demeanor. It would be one problem if only the students themselves thought of themselves as Larry Page's and Steve Jobs', but the employers are buying into it also. Companies like Google are swimming in talent but drowning in their own lack of discipline.</p><p>I must say, though, that the answer does not lie in outsourcing to foreign workers out in India... we have a country full of people who actually are employable. Why not hire some self-motivated community college students to do menial tasks, or perhaps start bringing in some of these unemployed IT workers? How about some people with battle scars from web 1.0, with the attention to detail necessary to keep commercial systems running? How about we bring in more old guys and expect more from our young talent? There are plenty of workers in America that deserve a fair shot, and we should not let the egos of some of our "rock star" graduates of fancy schools sink the reputation of the U.S. work ethic?</p><p>We have talent and I feel it's time our job market turn towards precision.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He 's right... I absolutely hate that this guy is correct about this , but he is .
I really hate to flash my social science background on slashdot , but here it goes : There 's been a trend in American society in the past couple decades towards " Helicopter parenting " and what could be considered a " participation trophy " society .
We are a society that rewards mediocrity with enthusiasm and teaches every child to be a superstar .
The downside to this is that we have a generation of workers who require constant affirmation and a high degree of reward for relatively small amounts of work.Computer science is an engineering field , it does not require merely creativity and an artistic zeal but the steadiness of mind and capability of a traditional engineer , one who might design an engine , or build a bridge , even .
It 's not the technique of traditional engineering that computer science needs , but the character and demeanor .
It would be one problem if only the students themselves thought of themselves as Larry Page 's and Steve Jobs ' , but the employers are buying into it also .
Companies like Google are swimming in talent but drowning in their own lack of discipline.I must say , though , that the answer does not lie in outsourcing to foreign workers out in India... we have a country full of people who actually are employable .
Why not hire some self-motivated community college students to do menial tasks , or perhaps start bringing in some of these unemployed IT workers ?
How about some people with battle scars from web 1.0 , with the attention to detail necessary to keep commercial systems running ?
How about we bring in more old guys and expect more from our young talent ?
There are plenty of workers in America that deserve a fair shot , and we should not let the egos of some of our " rock star " graduates of fancy schools sink the reputation of the U.S. work ethic ? We have talent and I feel it 's time our job market turn towards precision .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He's right... I absolutely hate that this guy is correct about this, but he is.
I really hate to flash my social science background on slashdot, but here it goes:There's been a trend in American society in the past couple decades towards "Helicopter parenting" and what could be considered a "participation trophy" society.
We are a society that rewards mediocrity with enthusiasm and teaches every child to be a superstar.
The downside to this is that we have a generation of workers who require constant affirmation and a high degree of reward for relatively small amounts of work.Computer science is an engineering field, it does not require merely creativity and an artistic zeal but the steadiness of mind and capability of a traditional engineer, one who might design an engine, or build a bridge, even.
It's not the technique of traditional engineering that computer science needs, but the character and demeanor.
It would be one problem if only the students themselves thought of themselves as Larry Page's and Steve Jobs', but the employers are buying into it also.
Companies like Google are swimming in talent but drowning in their own lack of discipline.I must say, though, that the answer does not lie in outsourcing to foreign workers out in India... we have a country full of people who actually are employable.
Why not hire some self-motivated community college students to do menial tasks, or perhaps start bringing in some of these unemployed IT workers?
How about some people with battle scars from web 1.0, with the attention to detail necessary to keep commercial systems running?
How about we bring in more old guys and expect more from our young talent?
There are plenty of workers in America that deserve a fair shot, and we should not let the egos of some of our "rock star" graduates of fancy schools sink the reputation of the U.S. work ethic?We have talent and I feel it's time our job market turn towards precision.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421001</id>
	<title>Re:Name an "Indian" project that went well</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245681720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Except what you fail to see is that people who can't problem solve are common everywhere, in every country with "modern" education. You will also find that people from the countryside, or the poor actually on average turn out better for engineering, and the like because they have no choice but to learn basic problem solving skills. They can't afford to hire a plumber, electrician, or pay someone to spoon feed their kids the "laws" of physics, and the "rules" of mathematics.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Except what you fail to see is that people who ca n't problem solve are common everywhere , in every country with " modern " education .
You will also find that people from the countryside , or the poor actually on average turn out better for engineering , and the like because they have no choice but to learn basic problem solving skills .
They ca n't afford to hire a plumber , electrician , or pay someone to spoon feed their kids the " laws " of physics , and the " rules " of mathematics .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Except what you fail to see is that people who can't problem solve are common everywhere, in every country with "modern" education.
You will also find that people from the countryside, or the poor actually on average turn out better for engineering, and the like because they have no choice but to learn basic problem solving skills.
They can't afford to hire a plumber, electrician, or pay someone to spoon feed their kids the "laws" of physics, and the "rules" of mathematics.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417823</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418341</id>
	<title>3 war stories - equally amusing and frustrating</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245662640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Not so bad:
<br> <br>
1) I've been putting in a new ecommerce architecture for one of my clients using Mule and ATG at the front end.  We need to call an external Webservice so had the usual Java debate, CXF vs Axis 1 vs Axis 2.  As I'm getting old, I'm more pragmatic than I used to be I advised their tech team to use the same method as their large Indian offshore company so that they would only have one technology to teach their developers (support and maintenance being a major concern).  The internal architect came back to tell me they had hard coded each call using DOM to build and read the services - with it taking 50 man days per call (over 2 man years).  By that afternoon, we'd chosen a framework and built all the calls, as well as refactoring their code to use our Mule services, and have built test scripts to test it all!  This was frustrating for their finance dept.
<br> <br>
Worse
<br> <br>
2) At a previous client we were asked (as a niche supplier) to code review the work coming back from offshore.  Again it was Java and the code showed a total lack of knowledge of the language or object orientation.  Example issues were - all instance attributes declared as public which led to a total lack of encapsulation - classes directly referenced other variable classes with impunity, no use of interfaces at all, copy and paste code where inheritance may have worked, I say may as the code was written as if Java was a procedural language - one massive class, one main method...<br> <br>
Appalling<br> <br>
3) A 2nd hand story.  I worked with an architect who was sent to India by a retail bank in the UK as code wouldn't compile when returned to the client (Java again).  He arrived and asked what IDE they used to which they replied Notepad - "ok" he said, not sure why, but I assume you use Ant or Maven to build your projects.  "No, we just write it in Notepad and send it to you"...  That explained a lot.
<br> <br>
Anyway, all the above led me to start my own company (<a href="http://www.sceneric.com/" title="sceneric.com" rel="nofollow">shameless plug</a> [sceneric.com]) and we get quite a bit of work fixing offshore issues, or actually helping large consultancies improve their project quality before the client sees examples like the above.  I would like to point out though, the issue IMHO is not with India or the countries in question, it's with the mentality of large companies who stuff in as many graduates into the mincer as possible, whether they have IT / programming qualifications or not, with little or no programming training with the hope that "it'll be ok".  Grads are of course, some of the most profitable resources for a big company as they're paid peanuts.  Having been in this situation at Cambridge Technology Partners in the UK, I saw tonnes of similar mistakes being made by arts graduates with no programming experience (including somebody using 2 digit years in code in 1998!).
<br> <br>
Finally, coming back to the original topic, unless something major has changed in the States in the last ten years the CEO is talking utter rubbish - the USA is where tech innovation happens, with the valley still a major centre of this.  Also, every US CTP technical person I met was utterly excellent at their job (Boston and San Matteo offices for me).  Vineet Nayer is just peddling lies</htmltext>
<tokenext>Not so bad : 1 ) I 've been putting in a new ecommerce architecture for one of my clients using Mule and ATG at the front end .
We need to call an external Webservice so had the usual Java debate , CXF vs Axis 1 vs Axis 2 .
As I 'm getting old , I 'm more pragmatic than I used to be I advised their tech team to use the same method as their large Indian offshore company so that they would only have one technology to teach their developers ( support and maintenance being a major concern ) .
The internal architect came back to tell me they had hard coded each call using DOM to build and read the services - with it taking 50 man days per call ( over 2 man years ) .
By that afternoon , we 'd chosen a framework and built all the calls , as well as refactoring their code to use our Mule services , and have built test scripts to test it all !
This was frustrating for their finance dept .
Worse 2 ) At a previous client we were asked ( as a niche supplier ) to code review the work coming back from offshore .
Again it was Java and the code showed a total lack of knowledge of the language or object orientation .
Example issues were - all instance attributes declared as public which led to a total lack of encapsulation - classes directly referenced other variable classes with impunity , no use of interfaces at all , copy and paste code where inheritance may have worked , I say may as the code was written as if Java was a procedural language - one massive class , one main method.. . Appalling 3 ) A 2nd hand story .
I worked with an architect who was sent to India by a retail bank in the UK as code would n't compile when returned to the client ( Java again ) .
He arrived and asked what IDE they used to which they replied Notepad - " ok " he said , not sure why , but I assume you use Ant or Maven to build your projects .
" No , we just write it in Notepad and send it to you " ... That explained a lot .
Anyway , all the above led me to start my own company ( shameless plug [ sceneric.com ] ) and we get quite a bit of work fixing offshore issues , or actually helping large consultancies improve their project quality before the client sees examples like the above .
I would like to point out though , the issue IMHO is not with India or the countries in question , it 's with the mentality of large companies who stuff in as many graduates into the mincer as possible , whether they have IT / programming qualifications or not , with little or no programming training with the hope that " it 'll be ok " .
Grads are of course , some of the most profitable resources for a big company as they 're paid peanuts .
Having been in this situation at Cambridge Technology Partners in the UK , I saw tonnes of similar mistakes being made by arts graduates with no programming experience ( including somebody using 2 digit years in code in 1998 ! ) .
Finally , coming back to the original topic , unless something major has changed in the States in the last ten years the CEO is talking utter rubbish - the USA is where tech innovation happens , with the valley still a major centre of this .
Also , every US CTP technical person I met was utterly excellent at their job ( Boston and San Matteo offices for me ) .
Vineet Nayer is just peddling lies</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not so bad:
 
1) I've been putting in a new ecommerce architecture for one of my clients using Mule and ATG at the front end.
We need to call an external Webservice so had the usual Java debate, CXF vs Axis 1 vs Axis 2.
As I'm getting old, I'm more pragmatic than I used to be I advised their tech team to use the same method as their large Indian offshore company so that they would only have one technology to teach their developers (support and maintenance being a major concern).
The internal architect came back to tell me they had hard coded each call using DOM to build and read the services - with it taking 50 man days per call (over 2 man years).
By that afternoon, we'd chosen a framework and built all the calls, as well as refactoring their code to use our Mule services, and have built test scripts to test it all!
This was frustrating for their finance dept.
Worse
 
2) At a previous client we were asked (as a niche supplier) to code review the work coming back from offshore.
Again it was Java and the code showed a total lack of knowledge of the language or object orientation.
Example issues were - all instance attributes declared as public which led to a total lack of encapsulation - classes directly referenced other variable classes with impunity, no use of interfaces at all, copy and paste code where inheritance may have worked, I say may as the code was written as if Java was a procedural language - one massive class, one main method... 
Appalling 
3) A 2nd hand story.
I worked with an architect who was sent to India by a retail bank in the UK as code wouldn't compile when returned to the client (Java again).
He arrived and asked what IDE they used to which they replied Notepad - "ok" he said, not sure why, but I assume you use Ant or Maven to build your projects.
"No, we just write it in Notepad and send it to you"...  That explained a lot.
Anyway, all the above led me to start my own company (shameless plug [sceneric.com]) and we get quite a bit of work fixing offshore issues, or actually helping large consultancies improve their project quality before the client sees examples like the above.
I would like to point out though, the issue IMHO is not with India or the countries in question, it's with the mentality of large companies who stuff in as many graduates into the mincer as possible, whether they have IT / programming qualifications or not, with little or no programming training with the hope that "it'll be ok".
Grads are of course, some of the most profitable resources for a big company as they're paid peanuts.
Having been in this situation at Cambridge Technology Partners in the UK, I saw tonnes of similar mistakes being made by arts graduates with no programming experience (including somebody using 2 digit years in code in 1998!).
Finally, coming back to the original topic, unless something major has changed in the States in the last ten years the CEO is talking utter rubbish - the USA is where tech innovation happens, with the valley still a major centre of this.
Also, every US CTP technical person I met was utterly excellent at their job (Boston and San Matteo offices for me).
Vineet Nayer is just peddling lies</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421567</id>
	<title>Contributions of immigrants</title>
	<author>phorm</author>
	<datestamp>1245683640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In many cases it seems that immigrants have all the same bad habits of locals, and you can end up with excellent contributions from either side. Heck, one of the most revered and well-known scientists to-date wasn't from the US (E=MC^2).</p><p>However, the issue is not with the immigrants themselves, but with the companies who abuse both the local populace and the remote workers. Sure, it seems like a nice ride for now, but in the future they'll be happy to drop Indian/Thai/Chinese/etc labour just as quickly as those in the US when it becomes cheaper to move elsewhere. It might take a long time, but it will happen.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In many cases it seems that immigrants have all the same bad habits of locals , and you can end up with excellent contributions from either side .
Heck , one of the most revered and well-known scientists to-date was n't from the US ( E = MC ^ 2 ) .However , the issue is not with the immigrants themselves , but with the companies who abuse both the local populace and the remote workers .
Sure , it seems like a nice ride for now , but in the future they 'll be happy to drop Indian/Thai/Chinese/etc labour just as quickly as those in the US when it becomes cheaper to move elsewhere .
It might take a long time , but it will happen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In many cases it seems that immigrants have all the same bad habits of locals, and you can end up with excellent contributions from either side.
Heck, one of the most revered and well-known scientists to-date wasn't from the US (E=MC^2).However, the issue is not with the immigrants themselves, but with the companies who abuse both the local populace and the remote workers.
Sure, it seems like a nice ride for now, but in the future they'll be happy to drop Indian/Thai/Chinese/etc labour just as quickly as those in the US when it becomes cheaper to move elsewhere.
It might take a long time, but it will happen.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418517</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28427619</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245704040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The rest of the 1st world is free to take the USAs spot any time they want.  Oh, wait.  That's right, you guys probably have that nasty socialistic government that is slowly strangling your own businesses and citizens.  Well, enjoy your "free" healthcare then.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The rest of the 1st world is free to take the USAs spot any time they want .
Oh , wait .
That 's right , you guys probably have that nasty socialistic government that is slowly strangling your own businesses and citizens .
Well , enjoy your " free " healthcare then .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The rest of the 1st world is free to take the USAs spot any time they want.
Oh, wait.
That's right, you guys probably have that nasty socialistic government that is slowly strangling your own businesses and citizens.
Well, enjoy your "free" healthcare then.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418517</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422515</id>
	<title>Re:#1:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245686700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Being highly motivated is fine, but not when it comes at the price of competence.  I know of no end of tech workers killing themselves by the mantra "work harder, not smarter."  These "highly motivated" individuals see absolutely nothing wrong with wasting thirteen to sixteen hours of their lives each day working on systems that shouldn't ever have failed in the first place.  Unfortunately, due to poor engineering and a management structure that prefers "making the date" and a culture of scapegoatism, the products and services are rolled out broken, miserably so, and patched ad infinitum until the operations staff can get away with only rebooting the entire cluster once a day.  The code monkeys coming out of Indian degree mills are just that, guys with zero theoretical knowledge and only the experience of a vocational programming school.  The guy at the top has a Ph.D, but what good is it if he doesn't realize that you can't treat network resources like RAM?</p><p>At the end of the day, programmer cost/performance is a complicated metric that the vast bulk of management refuses to deal with because it's hard to determine and has lots of moving parts.  It doesn't help that they're lazy, only want to report the bottom line and are far and away concerned with covering their collective asses rather than making a quality product.  This almost always taking some risk, and nobody wants to take a chance.  It's stupid, and it's killing the industry.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Being highly motivated is fine , but not when it comes at the price of competence .
I know of no end of tech workers killing themselves by the mantra " work harder , not smarter .
" These " highly motivated " individuals see absolutely nothing wrong with wasting thirteen to sixteen hours of their lives each day working on systems that should n't ever have failed in the first place .
Unfortunately , due to poor engineering and a management structure that prefers " making the date " and a culture of scapegoatism , the products and services are rolled out broken , miserably so , and patched ad infinitum until the operations staff can get away with only rebooting the entire cluster once a day .
The code monkeys coming out of Indian degree mills are just that , guys with zero theoretical knowledge and only the experience of a vocational programming school .
The guy at the top has a Ph.D , but what good is it if he does n't realize that you ca n't treat network resources like RAM ? At the end of the day , programmer cost/performance is a complicated metric that the vast bulk of management refuses to deal with because it 's hard to determine and has lots of moving parts .
It does n't help that they 're lazy , only want to report the bottom line and are far and away concerned with covering their collective asses rather than making a quality product .
This almost always taking some risk , and nobody wants to take a chance .
It 's stupid , and it 's killing the industry .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Being highly motivated is fine, but not when it comes at the price of competence.
I know of no end of tech workers killing themselves by the mantra "work harder, not smarter.
"  These "highly motivated" individuals see absolutely nothing wrong with wasting thirteen to sixteen hours of their lives each day working on systems that shouldn't ever have failed in the first place.
Unfortunately, due to poor engineering and a management structure that prefers "making the date" and a culture of scapegoatism, the products and services are rolled out broken, miserably so, and patched ad infinitum until the operations staff can get away with only rebooting the entire cluster once a day.
The code monkeys coming out of Indian degree mills are just that, guys with zero theoretical knowledge and only the experience of a vocational programming school.
The guy at the top has a Ph.D, but what good is it if he doesn't realize that you can't treat network resources like RAM?At the end of the day, programmer cost/performance is a complicated metric that the vast bulk of management refuses to deal with because it's hard to determine and has lots of moving parts.
It doesn't help that they're lazy, only want to report the bottom line and are far and away concerned with covering their collective asses rather than making a quality product.
This almost always taking some risk, and nobody wants to take a chance.
It's stupid, and it's killing the industry.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417615</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28436101</id>
	<title>Re:Unemployable?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245749100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Americans enjoy running water.<br>=&gt;Why? Try harder to make sense.</p><p>Americans don't want to live in a small mud hut with their whole extended family.<br>=&gt;Are you telling me this is by choice? I have not seen an intellectually perverse and snobbish SOB like you!</p><p>Americans don't want to work 80 hours a week on slave wages with no overtime.<br>=&gt;What the fuck Americans want to do? Ask yourself a genuine question, what the fuck you think they want to do? Just crib about others all the times and insist that they are smarter than others? What you would do? You are an ignorant fool.</p><p>Americans have a higher cost of living in regards to just about everything.<br>=&gt;Start forgetting this! You are already in deep shit, where does your economy stand today compared to economies of developing countries like India, China, Brazil, which have way too resilient economies? Which country is in deepest shit? Shouldn't smart Americans like you take the blame? Or you should keep insisting that you want a 72" LED TV?</p><p>Americans usually need cars to function in American society.<br>=&gt;And they beg for carbon credits...who comes to your rescue? Developing countries! India, China, Brazil.</p><p>Americans want to have 72"+ LED backlit LCD TVs.<br>=&gt;Shove that up your ass! You might feel better.</p><p>Managers don't get bonuses for hiring Americans.<br>=&gt;Yes, they suck.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Americans enjoy running water. = &gt; Why ?
Try harder to make sense.Americans do n't want to live in a small mud hut with their whole extended family. = &gt; Are you telling me this is by choice ?
I have not seen an intellectually perverse and snobbish SOB like you ! Americans do n't want to work 80 hours a week on slave wages with no overtime. = &gt; What the fuck Americans want to do ?
Ask yourself a genuine question , what the fuck you think they want to do ?
Just crib about others all the times and insist that they are smarter than others ?
What you would do ?
You are an ignorant fool.Americans have a higher cost of living in regards to just about everything. = &gt; Start forgetting this !
You are already in deep shit , where does your economy stand today compared to economies of developing countries like India , China , Brazil , which have way too resilient economies ?
Which country is in deepest shit ?
Should n't smart Americans like you take the blame ?
Or you should keep insisting that you want a 72 " LED TV ? Americans usually need cars to function in American society. = &gt; And they beg for carbon credits...who comes to your rescue ?
Developing countries !
India , China , Brazil.Americans want to have 72 " + LED backlit LCD TVs. = &gt; Shove that up your ass !
You might feel better.Managers do n't get bonuses for hiring Americans. = &gt; Yes , they suck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Americans enjoy running water.=&gt;Why?
Try harder to make sense.Americans don't want to live in a small mud hut with their whole extended family.=&gt;Are you telling me this is by choice?
I have not seen an intellectually perverse and snobbish SOB like you!Americans don't want to work 80 hours a week on slave wages with no overtime.=&gt;What the fuck Americans want to do?
Ask yourself a genuine question, what the fuck you think they want to do?
Just crib about others all the times and insist that they are smarter than others?
What you would do?
You are an ignorant fool.Americans have a higher cost of living in regards to just about everything.=&gt;Start forgetting this!
You are already in deep shit, where does your economy stand today compared to economies of developing countries like India, China, Brazil, which have way too resilient economies?
Which country is in deepest shit?
Shouldn't smart Americans like you take the blame?
Or you should keep insisting that you want a 72" LED TV?Americans usually need cars to function in American society.=&gt;And they beg for carbon credits...who comes to your rescue?
Developing countries!
India, China, Brazil.Americans want to have 72"+ LED backlit LCD TVs.=&gt;Shove that up your ass!
You might feel better.Managers don't get bonuses for hiring Americans.=&gt;Yes, they suck.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417645</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421329</id>
	<title>To the one trick ponies</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245682860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The reason abstract skills are important is that they allow you to acquire concrete skills in a much shorter time. You cannot be a generalist without abstract skills. And no universities cannot tailor their programs for your exact concrete needs because then they would have 1000 different CS cursus (one per enterprise) with only one student in each of them.</p><p>Believe it or not but: the last part of the formation from abstract/semi concrete teaching to the concrete specific skills needed in your enterprise (and only in your enterprise) must be provided by YOU. You scrapped completely internal professional formation: your fault.</p><p>Universities are there to teach the intersection set of that with on top abstract knowledge that can be readily used to acquire specific concrete knowledge. This means that people out of the university won't be ready for the job first day<br>but I can tell you that they will be after 10 days and if you need to move them around to another job, then they'll only need 10 other days to pick it up (instead of 8 months for those that only have concrete skills).</p><p>Now to all those saying, this is the question I ask in job interviews and they don't even know the answer. Well, you're only surprised because you are but a one trick pony. This is the (only) question you thought about for so long that now the answer now appears as self evident for you. You even thought about it for so long that you don't even accept correct answer if they aren't the same as the one you seek. Hey even people hitting the correct answer you seek will get a "not quite but close" because they didn't use your exact words.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The reason abstract skills are important is that they allow you to acquire concrete skills in a much shorter time .
You can not be a generalist without abstract skills .
And no universities can not tailor their programs for your exact concrete needs because then they would have 1000 different CS cursus ( one per enterprise ) with only one student in each of them.Believe it or not but : the last part of the formation from abstract/semi concrete teaching to the concrete specific skills needed in your enterprise ( and only in your enterprise ) must be provided by YOU .
You scrapped completely internal professional formation : your fault.Universities are there to teach the intersection set of that with on top abstract knowledge that can be readily used to acquire specific concrete knowledge .
This means that people out of the university wo n't be ready for the job first daybut I can tell you that they will be after 10 days and if you need to move them around to another job , then they 'll only need 10 other days to pick it up ( instead of 8 months for those that only have concrete skills ) .Now to all those saying , this is the question I ask in job interviews and they do n't even know the answer .
Well , you 're only surprised because you are but a one trick pony .
This is the ( only ) question you thought about for so long that now the answer now appears as self evident for you .
You even thought about it for so long that you do n't even accept correct answer if they are n't the same as the one you seek .
Hey even people hitting the correct answer you seek will get a " not quite but close " because they did n't use your exact words .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The reason abstract skills are important is that they allow you to acquire concrete skills in a much shorter time.
You cannot be a generalist without abstract skills.
And no universities cannot tailor their programs for your exact concrete needs because then they would have 1000 different CS cursus (one per enterprise) with only one student in each of them.Believe it or not but: the last part of the formation from abstract/semi concrete teaching to the concrete specific skills needed in your enterprise (and only in your enterprise) must be provided by YOU.
You scrapped completely internal professional formation: your fault.Universities are there to teach the intersection set of that with on top abstract knowledge that can be readily used to acquire specific concrete knowledge.
This means that people out of the university won't be ready for the job first daybut I can tell you that they will be after 10 days and if you need to move them around to another job, then they'll only need 10 other days to pick it up (instead of 8 months for those that only have concrete skills).Now to all those saying, this is the question I ask in job interviews and they don't even know the answer.
Well, you're only surprised because you are but a one trick pony.
This is the (only) question you thought about for so long that now the answer now appears as self evident for you.
You even thought about it for so long that you don't even accept correct answer if they aren't the same as the one you seek.
Hey even people hitting the correct answer you seek will get a "not quite but close" because they didn't use your exact words.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417975</id>
	<title>USA is turning into a socialist country :(</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245702600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is amusing (and sad<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:( ) to read all these comments of American pro-protectionism/isolationism leftists.<br>Looking at what has been going in the US lately I can't believe that this nation used to stand against commies.<br>Congress full of socialists printed another $2 trillion, going to "nationalize" the healthcare system etc. What next? Turn USA into USSR?</p><p>Did you forget your own history people? Is it what the Founding Fathers created America for?<br>Isn't it a free country for free people? If so then all those here whining about having to compete with foreigners for their jobs not only deserve being replaced by brighter person from abroad, but also exiled to Cuba or North Korea where they belong<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:) Or at least to Russia (where something like USSR-lite seems being restored lately).<br>Feel a need for abolishing free trade, closing borders or want tough immigration controls? Why waste time waiting for this changes in the US? Move to North Korea and enjoy everything you desire - today!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is amusing ( and sad : ( ) to read all these comments of American pro-protectionism/isolationism leftists.Looking at what has been going in the US lately I ca n't believe that this nation used to stand against commies.Congress full of socialists printed another $ 2 trillion , going to " nationalize " the healthcare system etc .
What next ?
Turn USA into USSR ? Did you forget your own history people ?
Is it what the Founding Fathers created America for ? Is n't it a free country for free people ?
If so then all those here whining about having to compete with foreigners for their jobs not only deserve being replaced by brighter person from abroad , but also exiled to Cuba or North Korea where they belong : ) Or at least to Russia ( where something like USSR-lite seems being restored lately ) .Feel a need for abolishing free trade , closing borders or want tough immigration controls ?
Why waste time waiting for this changes in the US ?
Move to North Korea and enjoy everything you desire - today !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is amusing (and sad :( ) to read all these comments of American pro-protectionism/isolationism leftists.Looking at what has been going in the US lately I can't believe that this nation used to stand against commies.Congress full of socialists printed another $2 trillion, going to "nationalize" the healthcare system etc.
What next?
Turn USA into USSR?Did you forget your own history people?
Is it what the Founding Fathers created America for?Isn't it a free country for free people?
If so then all those here whining about having to compete with foreigners for their jobs not only deserve being replaced by brighter person from abroad, but also exiled to Cuba or North Korea where they belong :) Or at least to Russia (where something like USSR-lite seems being restored lately).Feel a need for abolishing free trade, closing borders or want tough immigration controls?
Why waste time waiting for this changes in the US?
Move to North Korea and enjoy everything you desire - today!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420693</id>
	<title>And I find you stereotyping...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245680520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Srsly? Your statements were borderline racism.<br>
Take a parameter. Any parameter. Intelligence, humility, courage, penis length any parameter, and draw a distribution curve of number of people on the param. You know what you draw? It's called a bell curve. <br>
Now obviously it is an issue of the mean and variance of the population with respect to the param.I have been to IIT KGP and IIMA, and would say the the mean of arrogance is not so much different between US, Chinese, Europe and Australians. <br>
You were right about it being about a person, but the moment you preferred Europeans over any other population, you were just following the stereotype. If you are speaking out of personal experience, I would believe you just got lucky the few times you tried.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Srsly ?
Your statements were borderline racism .
Take a parameter .
Any parameter .
Intelligence , humility , courage , penis length any parameter , and draw a distribution curve of number of people on the param .
You know what you draw ?
It 's called a bell curve .
Now obviously it is an issue of the mean and variance of the population with respect to the param.I have been to IIT KGP and IIMA , and would say the the mean of arrogance is not so much different between US , Chinese , Europe and Australians .
You were right about it being about a person , but the moment you preferred Europeans over any other population , you were just following the stereotype .
If you are speaking out of personal experience , I would believe you just got lucky the few times you tried .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Srsly?
Your statements were borderline racism.
Take a parameter.
Any parameter.
Intelligence, humility, courage, penis length any parameter, and draw a distribution curve of number of people on the param.
You know what you draw?
It's called a bell curve.
Now obviously it is an issue of the mean and variance of the population with respect to the param.I have been to IIT KGP and IIMA, and would say the the mean of arrogance is not so much different between US, Chinese, Europe and Australians.
You were right about it being about a person, but the moment you preferred Europeans over any other population, you were just following the stereotype.
If you are speaking out of personal experience, I would believe you just got lucky the few times you tried.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418039</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245703080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Living in China for many years has left me with one infallible impression. These people just work longer, are better educated and don't ask to be treated like movie stars.</p><p>You're just outclassed so crying</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Living in China for many years has left me with one infallible impression .
These people just work longer , are better educated and do n't ask to be treated like movie stars.You 're just outclassed so crying</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Living in China for many years has left me with one infallible impression.
These people just work longer, are better educated and don't ask to be treated like movie stars.You're just outclassed so crying</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419001</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245668760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Seriously, this is standard no matter what the nationality.</p></div><p>It isn't.</p><p>I'm a german programmer working for a german software company, and we do not produce such a sorry mess I usually see in indian-staffed projects.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously , this is standard no matter what the nationality.It is n't.I 'm a german programmer working for a german software company , and we do not produce such a sorry mess I usually see in indian-staffed projects .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously, this is standard no matter what the nationality.It isn't.I'm a german programmer working for a german software company, and we do not produce such a sorry mess I usually see in indian-staffed projects.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417687</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420923</id>
	<title>Personal experience with HCL</title>
	<author>LearningHard</author>
	<datestamp>1245681360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>HCL recently took over a company that we used for various services. I have learned that the folks HCL brought in are very polite, very nice. However, once they get put into a situation that they don't have a prewritten set of instructions on how to handle they completely fall apart. We have hired temps with nothing but highschool diplomas and little to no prior experience that have exhibited better problem solving skills.</p><p>So yes, for doing purely mechanical and incredibly boring tasks they are pretty good. Fast turnaround etc. Get them out of that realm and into the realm of "thinking for themselves." Like I said... they fall apart.</p><p>I know this isn't how all Indian workers are since I went to school with some that were quite intelligent. The only experience I have with an offshore outsourcing firm is HCL and that has only happened recently.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>HCL recently took over a company that we used for various services .
I have learned that the folks HCL brought in are very polite , very nice .
However , once they get put into a situation that they do n't have a prewritten set of instructions on how to handle they completely fall apart .
We have hired temps with nothing but highschool diplomas and little to no prior experience that have exhibited better problem solving skills.So yes , for doing purely mechanical and incredibly boring tasks they are pretty good .
Fast turnaround etc .
Get them out of that realm and into the realm of " thinking for themselves .
" Like I said... they fall apart.I know this is n't how all Indian workers are since I went to school with some that were quite intelligent .
The only experience I have with an offshore outsourcing firm is HCL and that has only happened recently .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>HCL recently took over a company that we used for various services.
I have learned that the folks HCL brought in are very polite, very nice.
However, once they get put into a situation that they don't have a prewritten set of instructions on how to handle they completely fall apart.
We have hired temps with nothing but highschool diplomas and little to no prior experience that have exhibited better problem solving skills.So yes, for doing purely mechanical and incredibly boring tasks they are pretty good.
Fast turnaround etc.
Get them out of that realm and into the realm of "thinking for themselves.
" Like I said... they fall apart.I know this isn't how all Indian workers are since I went to school with some that were quite intelligent.
The only experience I have with an offshore outsourcing firm is HCL and that has only happened recently.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422657</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>Bamafan77</author>
	<datestamp>1245687120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Umm.. because it's written by programmers?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)<br>

Seriously, this is standard no matter what the nationality.</p></div></blockquote><p>

Seriously.  While I don't doubt that most outsourced code is crap, I do take issue with the implication that most American-written code is great. All the posts that imply this should be modded +5 Funny.</p><p>

Like Americans, I'm sure Indian out-sourced firms are on projects allocated a fraction of the resources (in time, money, manpower, etc) as is actually needed.  Under those conditions, you simply are not going to get great code <b>from anyone</b>.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Umm.. because it 's written by programmers ?
: ) Seriously , this is standard no matter what the nationality .
Seriously. While I do n't doubt that most outsourced code is crap , I do take issue with the implication that most American-written code is great .
All the posts that imply this should be modded + 5 Funny .
Like Americans , I 'm sure Indian out-sourced firms are on projects allocated a fraction of the resources ( in time , money , manpower , etc ) as is actually needed .
Under those conditions , you simply are not going to get great code from anyone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Umm.. because it's written by programmers?
:)

Seriously, this is standard no matter what the nationality.
Seriously.  While I don't doubt that most outsourced code is crap, I do take issue with the implication that most American-written code is great.
All the posts that imply this should be modded +5 Funny.
Like Americans, I'm sure Indian out-sourced firms are on projects allocated a fraction of the resources (in time, money, manpower, etc) as is actually needed.
Under those conditions, you simply are not going to get great code from anyone.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417687</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417539</id>
	<title>Hahaha, Six Sigma *snort*</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245612360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>His complaint about American college grads is that they aren't trained in bullshit corporate feel-good busywork initiatives like Six Sigma?  I take his rejection as a compliment.  While his robotically obedient employees are busily documenting their processes, American college grads will be inventing the technology they'll be adopting 5 years from now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>His complaint about American college grads is that they are n't trained in bullshit corporate feel-good busywork initiatives like Six Sigma ?
I take his rejection as a compliment .
While his robotically obedient employees are busily documenting their processes , American college grads will be inventing the technology they 'll be adopting 5 years from now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>His complaint about American college grads is that they aren't trained in bullshit corporate feel-good busywork initiatives like Six Sigma?
I take his rejection as a compliment.
While his robotically obedient employees are busily documenting their processes, American college grads will be inventing the technology they'll be adopting 5 years from now.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424863</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>bertramwooster</author>
	<datestamp>1245694680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A comment with the heading "I find most Indians incompetent" is "interesting"? It doesn't matter if you replace "Indians" with any other country, it is a patently stupid generalization. I am an Indian and I didn't go to IIT, but I can tell you that most of the guys who get into IIT every year are some of the smartest 2000 guys in a country of 1 billion people. True, some of them have an attitude but they are rather raw because they are undergraduates, but they are definitely very talented.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A comment with the heading " I find most Indians incompetent " is " interesting " ?
It does n't matter if you replace " Indians " with any other country , it is a patently stupid generalization .
I am an Indian and I did n't go to IIT , but I can tell you that most of the guys who get into IIT every year are some of the smartest 2000 guys in a country of 1 billion people .
True , some of them have an attitude but they are rather raw because they are undergraduates , but they are definitely very talented .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A comment with the heading "I find most Indians incompetent" is "interesting"?
It doesn't matter if you replace "Indians" with any other country, it is a patently stupid generalization.
I am an Indian and I didn't go to IIT, but I can tell you that most of the guys who get into IIT every year are some of the smartest 2000 guys in a country of 1 billion people.
True, some of them have an attitude but they are rather raw because they are undergraduates, but they are definitely very talented.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28444235</id>
	<title>Re:Unemployable?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245747780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Americans usually need cars to function in American society.
Americans want to have 72"+ LED backlit LCD TVs."<br> <br>

You just gave two cogent reasons how Americans are <i>stupid</i>...<br> <br>

PS: the USA is just one of many countries in "America."</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Americans usually need cars to function in American society .
Americans want to have 72 " + LED backlit LCD TVs .
" You just gave two cogent reasons how Americans are stupid.. . PS : the USA is just one of many countries in " America .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Americans usually need cars to function in American society.
Americans want to have 72"+ LED backlit LCD TVs.
" 

You just gave two cogent reasons how Americans are stupid... 

PS: the USA is just one of many countries in "America.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417645</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417943</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Unoriginal\_Nickname</author>
	<datestamp>1245702180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Remember this is *three* different projects from three different Indian companies theoretically written by three different sets of programmers.  The code all looks and feels the same, which leads me to believe there's something going on industry wide over there.</p></div><p>The thing that's going on industry-wide: Sites like Stack Overflow and Professional Sex Change. In India I'm pretty sure Google's "I'm feeling lucky!" button says "Do my job for me." All of the code looks the same because it is the same.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Remember this is * three * different projects from three different Indian companies theoretically written by three different sets of programmers .
The code all looks and feels the same , which leads me to believe there 's something going on industry wide over there.The thing that 's going on industry-wide : Sites like Stack Overflow and Professional Sex Change .
In India I 'm pretty sure Google 's " I 'm feeling lucky !
" button says " Do my job for me .
" All of the code looks the same because it is the same .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Remember this is *three* different projects from three different Indian companies theoretically written by three different sets of programmers.
The code all looks and feels the same, which leads me to believe there's something going on industry wide over there.The thing that's going on industry-wide: Sites like Stack Overflow and Professional Sex Change.
In India I'm pretty sure Google's "I'm feeling lucky!
" button says "Do my job for me.
" All of the code looks the same because it is the same.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419751</id>
	<title>Re:Americans are unemployable...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245674820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm making $15/hr and I'm *damn* good at what I do. I'm also a 21y/o new hire that has to prove himself to the company first, so I have nothinig to complain about.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm making $ 15/hr and I 'm * damn * good at what I do .
I 'm also a 21y/o new hire that has to prove himself to the company first , so I have nothinig to complain about .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm making $15/hr and I'm *damn* good at what I do.
I'm also a 21y/o new hire that has to prove himself to the company first, so I have nothinig to complain about.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417521</id>
	<title>How Odd</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245612180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>My tech support coming from India is unintelligible</htmltext>
<tokenext>My tech support coming from India is unintelligible</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My tech support coming from India is unintelligible</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419273</id>
	<title>Re:He has a bit of a point</title>
	<author>tgd</author>
	<datestamp>1245670860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ha, this is very true.</p><p>The first course I took that focused on team programming, I had four people on a team. Two were incompetent, couldn't write code that worked and had no concept of documentation or how to design interfaces to interoperate properly. The other two of us ended up having to do all the work at the last minute with a number of late nights.</p><p>It was just like real life programming.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ha , this is very true.The first course I took that focused on team programming , I had four people on a team .
Two were incompetent , could n't write code that worked and had no concept of documentation or how to design interfaces to interoperate properly .
The other two of us ended up having to do all the work at the last minute with a number of late nights.It was just like real life programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ha, this is very true.The first course I took that focused on team programming, I had four people on a team.
Two were incompetent, couldn't write code that worked and had no concept of documentation or how to design interfaces to interoperate properly.
The other two of us ended up having to do all the work at the last minute with a number of late nights.It was just like real life programming.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417533</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28440839</id>
	<title>ChoppingBlock</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245779400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A good friend who happens to be Indian, and is a very experienced software engineer came back to the US. He was laid off in the US due to outsourcing. Went back to India. Found the work ethic and environment there to be total crap, and returned to the US.  Meanwhile, his father is an Indian venture capitalist who is into starting up businesses over there.  He can have the pick of jobs in India if he wanted to, yet he does not.  He can't stand the business culture and environment. If you think things are sleazy here, take a look at India. It is far worse. Imagine not getting a job because you aren't of the right 'social caste'.</p><p>The purpose of outsourcing is simple. Short term cost cutting to make the bottom line look better. For long term prospects, at the scale this is going on, is unsustainable for the US economy.  These big-wig execs make their bottom line look wonderful on the short term. They then escape after a short stint with a huge treasure trove.. either retiring or moving on to another company to bilk in the same manner.  In the meantime, companies are losing their best and most experience talent. The smart companies are picking these people up -now- to gain what matters. Intellectual capital.  When the economy turns, they will be FAR ahead of the curve and far more productive than an India based development house.</p><p>Unfortunately through all this, the US economy has eroded to depression levels. Healthcare costs are at a critical level (some 60\% of bankrupcies are caused by medical bills), greed and criminality in the financial markets finally burst the bubble, and wages are tanking.  Many highly skilled individuals are losing their homes and have ruined their credit rating as a result. Oh yes, the very credit system managed by the financial institutions which helped hose the economy.</p><p>Don't you believe it. The US is not at a 9\% unemployment rate.  Look around your town and city. Use your own eyes. The unemployment rate is FAR higher.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A good friend who happens to be Indian , and is a very experienced software engineer came back to the US .
He was laid off in the US due to outsourcing .
Went back to India .
Found the work ethic and environment there to be total crap , and returned to the US .
Meanwhile , his father is an Indian venture capitalist who is into starting up businesses over there .
He can have the pick of jobs in India if he wanted to , yet he does not .
He ca n't stand the business culture and environment .
If you think things are sleazy here , take a look at India .
It is far worse .
Imagine not getting a job because you are n't of the right 'social caste'.The purpose of outsourcing is simple .
Short term cost cutting to make the bottom line look better .
For long term prospects , at the scale this is going on , is unsustainable for the US economy .
These big-wig execs make their bottom line look wonderful on the short term .
They then escape after a short stint with a huge treasure trove.. either retiring or moving on to another company to bilk in the same manner .
In the meantime , companies are losing their best and most experience talent .
The smart companies are picking these people up -now- to gain what matters .
Intellectual capital .
When the economy turns , they will be FAR ahead of the curve and far more productive than an India based development house.Unfortunately through all this , the US economy has eroded to depression levels .
Healthcare costs are at a critical level ( some 60 \ % of bankrupcies are caused by medical bills ) , greed and criminality in the financial markets finally burst the bubble , and wages are tanking .
Many highly skilled individuals are losing their homes and have ruined their credit rating as a result .
Oh yes , the very credit system managed by the financial institutions which helped hose the economy.Do n't you believe it .
The US is not at a 9 \ % unemployment rate .
Look around your town and city .
Use your own eyes .
The unemployment rate is FAR higher .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A good friend who happens to be Indian, and is a very experienced software engineer came back to the US.
He was laid off in the US due to outsourcing.
Went back to India.
Found the work ethic and environment there to be total crap, and returned to the US.
Meanwhile, his father is an Indian venture capitalist who is into starting up businesses over there.
He can have the pick of jobs in India if he wanted to, yet he does not.
He can't stand the business culture and environment.
If you think things are sleazy here, take a look at India.
It is far worse.
Imagine not getting a job because you aren't of the right 'social caste'.The purpose of outsourcing is simple.
Short term cost cutting to make the bottom line look better.
For long term prospects, at the scale this is going on, is unsustainable for the US economy.
These big-wig execs make their bottom line look wonderful on the short term.
They then escape after a short stint with a huge treasure trove.. either retiring or moving on to another company to bilk in the same manner.
In the meantime, companies are losing their best and most experience talent.
The smart companies are picking these people up -now- to gain what matters.
Intellectual capital.
When the economy turns, they will be FAR ahead of the curve and far more productive than an India based development house.Unfortunately through all this, the US economy has eroded to depression levels.
Healthcare costs are at a critical level (some 60\% of bankrupcies are caused by medical bills), greed and criminality in the financial markets finally burst the bubble, and wages are tanking.
Many highly skilled individuals are losing their homes and have ruined their credit rating as a result.
Oh yes, the very credit system managed by the financial institutions which helped hose the economy.Don't you believe it.
The US is not at a 9\% unemployment rate.
Look around your town and city.
Use your own eyes.
The unemployment rate is FAR higher.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28443527</id>
	<title>Where is the law?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245788760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I do not think that graduates overseas are better prepared, they have a better attitude as this Financial Genius says, they have the attitude that "ring$" to his CEO ear$, meaning: "I'm willing to do anything for 95 cents/hour, (or less)"<br>Yeah! that's the attitude kid, that's the spirit..!<br>Go for the extra mile without any gas!!</p><p>Why should a true AMERICAN company have anything to do with a guy who consider ourselves useless?</p><p>Maybe because despite the fact that we are unemployable and therefore, unemployed he can make 170Million "USD" (not rupees) per contract from Microsoft?</p><p>Barack my friend, shouldn't we have a legislation somewhere to stop this? before we all end in jobs that cannot be outsourced, like janitor, plumber, warder with our unemployable American degrees? What is the point of creating thousands of jobs and then send em abroad only to increase profit? (and decrease quality)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do not think that graduates overseas are better prepared , they have a better attitude as this Financial Genius says , they have the attitude that " ring $ " to his CEO ear $ , meaning : " I 'm willing to do anything for 95 cents/hour , ( or less ) " Yeah !
that 's the attitude kid , that 's the spirit.. ! Go for the extra mile without any gas !
! Why should a true AMERICAN company have anything to do with a guy who consider ourselves useless ? Maybe because despite the fact that we are unemployable and therefore , unemployed he can make 170Million " USD " ( not rupees ) per contract from Microsoft ? Barack my friend , should n't we have a legislation somewhere to stop this ?
before we all end in jobs that can not be outsourced , like janitor , plumber , warder with our unemployable American degrees ?
What is the point of creating thousands of jobs and then send em abroad only to increase profit ?
( and decrease quality )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I do not think that graduates overseas are better prepared, they have a better attitude as this Financial Genius says, they have the attitude that "ring$" to his CEO ear$, meaning: "I'm willing to do anything for 95 cents/hour, (or less)"Yeah!
that's the attitude kid, that's the spirit..!Go for the extra mile without any gas!
!Why should a true AMERICAN company have anything to do with a guy who consider ourselves useless?Maybe because despite the fact that we are unemployable and therefore, unemployed he can make 170Million "USD" (not rupees) per contract from Microsoft?Barack my friend, shouldn't we have a legislation somewhere to stop this?
before we all end in jobs that cannot be outsourced, like janitor, plumber, warder with our unemployable American degrees?
What is the point of creating thousands of jobs and then send em abroad only to increase profit?
(and decrease quality)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421817</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245684480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What this guy doesn't answer is why is it that when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that's stateside?</p></div><p>This annoys me more than anything. I spend more time making sure the specs are correct and correcting bugs in the code that comes back than if I were to simply write it all myself. Not only does it waste my time, but the outsourced supplier gets a gold star for completing the code "quickly". Never mind the fact that it only works because I put in a heroic effort to ensure it is right.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What this guy does n't answer is why is it that when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs , short cuts , and shit that does n't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that 's stateside ? This annoys me more than anything .
I spend more time making sure the specs are correct and correcting bugs in the code that comes back than if I were to simply write it all myself .
Not only does it waste my time , but the outsourced supplier gets a gold star for completing the code " quickly " .
Never mind the fact that it only works because I put in a heroic effort to ensure it is right .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What this guy doesn't answer is why is it that when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that's stateside?This annoys me more than anything.
I spend more time making sure the specs are correct and correcting bugs in the code that comes back than if I were to simply write it all myself.
Not only does it waste my time, but the outsourced supplier gets a gold star for completing the code "quickly".
Never mind the fact that it only works because I put in a heroic effort to ensure it is right.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421773</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>marol</author>
	<datestamp>1245684300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>On the topic of strange Slashdot behaviour. Can anyone explain why Slashdot comments often look <a href="http://bayimg.com/image/aabpiaacg.jpg" title="bayimg.com" rel="nofollow">like this</a> [bayimg.com]? This is with Firefox 3.0.11 in Ubuntu.</htmltext>
<tokenext>On the topic of strange Slashdot behaviour .
Can anyone explain why Slashdot comments often look like this [ bayimg.com ] ?
This is with Firefox 3.0.11 in Ubuntu .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On the topic of strange Slashdot behaviour.
Can anyone explain why Slashdot comments often look like this [bayimg.com]?
This is with Firefox 3.0.11 in Ubuntu.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418857</id>
	<title>It's the exchange rate stupid</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245667440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>People are forgetting the exchange rate in the comments.  Bottom line is that jobs got transfered to India and China by countries artificially holding the exchange rates down.  The exchange rate was and still is managed by their governments officially and unofficially.  That $500/month for an engineer translates into a wonderful fairly luxurious lifestyle in India or China and poverty in America.  Hence countries like India and China then got all all the middle class engineering jobs and knowledge as well as our manufacturing base transfered to them.  Our corporate heads didn't care as they made a huge amount off the outsourcing and globalization.  The middle class in America got to buy a cheaper computer but eventually lost their jobs to buy that computer width.  Of course now even upper class jobs like law are getting offshored.  The propped up exchange rate system is not sustainable.   Eventually the Indians and Chinese will have to compete on a level exchange rate i.e. equivalent lifestyle exchange rate as everyone else.  Hopefully we will still have some knowlege base left in this country when that happens.  Then one day this Indian CEO we are talking about here will wake and realize they are not as genetically special and smart and smug as this he arrogantly expresses right now.  It was just numbers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People are forgetting the exchange rate in the comments .
Bottom line is that jobs got transfered to India and China by countries artificially holding the exchange rates down .
The exchange rate was and still is managed by their governments officially and unofficially .
That $ 500/month for an engineer translates into a wonderful fairly luxurious lifestyle in India or China and poverty in America .
Hence countries like India and China then got all all the middle class engineering jobs and knowledge as well as our manufacturing base transfered to them .
Our corporate heads did n't care as they made a huge amount off the outsourcing and globalization .
The middle class in America got to buy a cheaper computer but eventually lost their jobs to buy that computer width .
Of course now even upper class jobs like law are getting offshored .
The propped up exchange rate system is not sustainable .
Eventually the Indians and Chinese will have to compete on a level exchange rate i.e .
equivalent lifestyle exchange rate as everyone else .
Hopefully we will still have some knowlege base left in this country when that happens .
Then one day this Indian CEO we are talking about here will wake and realize they are not as genetically special and smart and smug as this he arrogantly expresses right now .
It was just numbers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People are forgetting the exchange rate in the comments.
Bottom line is that jobs got transfered to India and China by countries artificially holding the exchange rates down.
The exchange rate was and still is managed by their governments officially and unofficially.
That $500/month for an engineer translates into a wonderful fairly luxurious lifestyle in India or China and poverty in America.
Hence countries like India and China then got all all the middle class engineering jobs and knowledge as well as our manufacturing base transfered to them.
Our corporate heads didn't care as they made a huge amount off the outsourcing and globalization.
The middle class in America got to buy a cheaper computer but eventually lost their jobs to buy that computer width.
Of course now even upper class jobs like law are getting offshored.
The propped up exchange rate system is not sustainable.
Eventually the Indians and Chinese will have to compete on a level exchange rate i.e.
equivalent lifestyle exchange rate as everyone else.
Hopefully we will still have some knowlege base left in this country when that happens.
Then one day this Indian CEO we are talking about here will wake and realize they are not as genetically special and smart and smug as this he arrogantly expresses right now.
It was just numbers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28438697</id>
	<title>Re:#1:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245771300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>that fact is not nice if you are rich westerner, but it is still a fact nonetheless: you have a hell of a lot of highly motivated, much cheaper competition out there. deal with it, or whine. but i don't see what the whining is supposed to get you except self-righteous victimization. it certainly won't get rid of the competition or get you higher pay</p><p>life is not always kind folks. just fucking deal with it already and stop the pathetic whining</p></div><p>I wouldn't have problems with competing with foreign labor, if the corporations also had to compete with foreign goods.  They can hire whoever they like globally, but I can't buy medicine from India, or DVD's from China to play on my region 1 DVD player.  If I, as a laborer should compete on a global scale and reduce my wages in comparison, then so should the corporations with their products and services.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>that fact is not nice if you are rich westerner , but it is still a fact nonetheless : you have a hell of a lot of highly motivated , much cheaper competition out there .
deal with it , or whine .
but i do n't see what the whining is supposed to get you except self-righteous victimization .
it certainly wo n't get rid of the competition or get you higher paylife is not always kind folks .
just fucking deal with it already and stop the pathetic whiningI would n't have problems with competing with foreign labor , if the corporations also had to compete with foreign goods .
They can hire whoever they like globally , but I ca n't buy medicine from India , or DVD 's from China to play on my region 1 DVD player .
If I , as a laborer should compete on a global scale and reduce my wages in comparison , then so should the corporations with their products and services .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>that fact is not nice if you are rich westerner, but it is still a fact nonetheless: you have a hell of a lot of highly motivated, much cheaper competition out there.
deal with it, or whine.
but i don't see what the whining is supposed to get you except self-righteous victimization.
it certainly won't get rid of the competition or get you higher paylife is not always kind folks.
just fucking deal with it already and stop the pathetic whiningI wouldn't have problems with competing with foreign labor, if the corporations also had to compete with foreign goods.
They can hire whoever they like globally, but I can't buy medicine from India, or DVD's from China to play on my region 1 DVD player.
If I, as a laborer should compete on a global scale and reduce my wages in comparison, then so should the corporations with their products and services.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417615</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417555</id>
	<title>Here we go again</title>
	<author>jackzob</author>
	<datestamp>1245612540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This post has the potential to trigger another round of "India sucks" or "Americans are dumb" comments. Frankly, its unwanted and its unnecessary to paint everything as Black and White.

Both countries are dependent on each other. Can't help it if citizens of both nations can't accept this simple fact.

The common threat to India as well as US is China. Deal with it!</htmltext>
<tokenext>This post has the potential to trigger another round of " India sucks " or " Americans are dumb " comments .
Frankly , its unwanted and its unnecessary to paint everything as Black and White .
Both countries are dependent on each other .
Ca n't help it if citizens of both nations ca n't accept this simple fact .
The common threat to India as well as US is China .
Deal with it !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This post has the potential to trigger another round of "India sucks" or "Americans are dumb" comments.
Frankly, its unwanted and its unnecessary to paint everything as Black and White.
Both countries are dependent on each other.
Can't help it if citizens of both nations can't accept this simple fact.
The common threat to India as well as US is China.
Deal with it!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418485</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>stereoroid</author>
	<datestamp>1245664080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Try going to your Help page, and under "Classic Index", check the box that says "Use Classic Index". There are other boxes there too e.g. "Simple Design".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Try going to your Help page , and under " Classic Index " , check the box that says " Use Classic Index " .
There are other boxes there too e.g .
" Simple Design " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Try going to your Help page, and under "Classic Index", check the box that says "Use Classic Index".
There are other boxes there too e.g.
"Simple Design".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424297</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>quax</author>
	<datestamp>1245692700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I find non functional sliders plastered all over my pages. To quote the Indian CEO apparently the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. coders just can not "master the boring' details of tech process and methodology" details like getting you web code to actually *work*.</p><p>Sad really.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I find non functional sliders plastered all over my pages .
To quote the Indian CEO apparently the / .
coders just can not " master the boring ' details of tech process and methodology " details like getting you web code to actually * work * .Sad really .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I find non functional sliders plastered all over my pages.
To quote the Indian CEO apparently the /.
coders just can not "master the boring' details of tech process and methodology" details like getting you web code to actually *work*.Sad really.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28429989</id>
	<title>Ha!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245669120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd like to see a list of these companies that actually FOLLOW Six Sigma and REAL Project Management Principles. I work in Healthcare and the joke is that any places I have seen they don't have time TIME or the MONEY to implement real methodologies. They just want code monkeys for the most part.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd like to see a list of these companies that actually FOLLOW Six Sigma and REAL Project Management Principles .
I work in Healthcare and the joke is that any places I have seen they do n't have time TIME or the MONEY to implement real methodologies .
They just want code monkeys for the most part .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd like to see a list of these companies that actually FOLLOW Six Sigma and REAL Project Management Principles.
I work in Healthcare and the joke is that any places I have seen they don't have time TIME or the MONEY to implement real methodologies.
They just want code monkeys for the most part.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417841</id>
	<title>Process</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245701340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Indians claim knowledge of the Process to get the contracts.  We'll be "cheaper and better" they say.</p><p>There is a hot new software development methodology making waves in India.  It's called "copy and paste" programming.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Indians claim knowledge of the Process to get the contracts .
We 'll be " cheaper and better " they say.There is a hot new software development methodology making waves in India .
It 's called " copy and paste " programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Indians claim knowledge of the Process to get the contracts.
We'll be "cheaper and better" they say.There is a hot new software development methodology making waves in India.
It's called "copy and paste" programming.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417739</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>LKM</author>
	<datestamp>1245613920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>"The US created these industries without massive immigration"</i> </p><p>Wait, Indians invented the computer all by themselves? Damn, I must really have been asleep during my history classes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" The US created these industries without massive immigration " Wait , Indians invented the computer all by themselves ?
Damn , I must really have been asleep during my history classes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> "The US created these industries without massive immigration" Wait, Indians invented the computer all by themselves?
Damn, I must really have been asleep during my history classes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417415</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421361</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>MikeBabcock</author>
	<datestamp>1245682920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I actually like the new AJAX site, it works nicely and its easier to see additional comments, but that's only on my newer PC at work.</p><p>Of course, you could disable Javascript in Firefox and see how that goes, or use the 'noscript' extension and maybe Slashdot reverts?  I don't know.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I actually like the new AJAX site , it works nicely and its easier to see additional comments , but that 's only on my newer PC at work.Of course , you could disable Javascript in Firefox and see how that goes , or use the 'noscript ' extension and maybe Slashdot reverts ?
I do n't know .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I actually like the new AJAX site, it works nicely and its easier to see additional comments, but that's only on my newer PC at work.Of course, you could disable Javascript in Firefox and see how that goes, or use the 'noscript' extension and maybe Slashdot reverts?
I don't know.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28435651</id>
	<title>Anyway</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245787440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Where the fuck is India?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Where the fuck is India ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where the fuck is India?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417513</id>
	<title>It works both ways</title>
	<author>tanveer1979</author>
	<datestamp>1245612120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There was a time America used to peddle stuff all over the world and insist on free trade. Now Third world countries are peddling their labor and insisting on free trade. Karma, what goes around, comes around!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There was a time America used to peddle stuff all over the world and insist on free trade .
Now Third world countries are peddling their labor and insisting on free trade .
Karma , what goes around , comes around !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There was a time America used to peddle stuff all over the world and insist on free trade.
Now Third world countries are peddling their labor and insisting on free trade.
Karma, what goes around, comes around!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417399</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419487</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245672780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you Slashdot fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a MacPro (3GHz / Quad-core, 8GB of RAM), directly connected to one of the internet's root servers, for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to load the front page with all the new scripting. 20 minutes. At home, on my Pentium Pro 200 running NT 4 on a 300 baud modem with IP over Avian Carriers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP\_over\_Avian\_Carriers), which by all standards should be a lot slower than this MacPro, loading the old site would take about 10 seconds. If that.
<p>
In addition, during this page load, Chrome will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even Twitter is straining to keep up as I type this.
</p><p>
I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while surfing the new site, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is being unable to get the preferences to actually change anything, despite the open source 'Bazaar' architecture seemingly allowing the community to quickly suggest a fix without waiting for a proprietary solution to release a solution. My 486/66 with 8 megs of ram printing on a daisy-wheel printer and posting that surface mail to OSDN directly to request a printout of the front page by return post delivers content faster than this cutting edge computational monster on government-grade bandwidth. From a productivity standpoint, browsing Slashdot no longer just occupies my employer's paid time but interrupts my personal life and sleep pattern too now.
</p><p>
Slashdot addicts, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use Slashdot over Digg.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't want to start a holy war here , but what is the deal with you Slashdot fanatics ?
I 've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a MacPro ( 3GHz / Quad-core , 8GB of RAM ) , directly connected to one of the internet 's root servers , for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to load the front page with all the new scripting .
20 minutes .
At home , on my Pentium Pro 200 running NT 4 on a 300 baud modem with IP over Avian Carriers ( http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP \ _over \ _Avian \ _Carriers ) , which by all standards should be a lot slower than this MacPro , loading the old site would take about 10 seconds .
If that .
In addition , during this page load , Chrome will not work .
And everything else has ground to a halt .
Even Twitter is straining to keep up as I type this .
I wo n't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I 've encountered while surfing the new site , but suffice it to say there have been many , not the least of which is being unable to get the preferences to actually change anything , despite the open source 'Bazaar ' architecture seemingly allowing the community to quickly suggest a fix without waiting for a proprietary solution to release a solution .
My 486/66 with 8 megs of ram printing on a daisy-wheel printer and posting that surface mail to OSDN directly to request a printout of the front page by return post delivers content faster than this cutting edge computational monster on government-grade bandwidth .
From a productivity standpoint , browsing Slashdot no longer just occupies my employer 's paid time but interrupts my personal life and sleep pattern too now .
Slashdot addicts , flame me if you 'd like , but I 'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use Slashdot over Digg .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you Slashdot fanatics?
I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a MacPro (3GHz / Quad-core, 8GB of RAM), directly connected to one of the internet's root servers, for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to load the front page with all the new scripting.
20 minutes.
At home, on my Pentium Pro 200 running NT 4 on a 300 baud modem with IP over Avian Carriers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP\_over\_Avian\_Carriers), which by all standards should be a lot slower than this MacPro, loading the old site would take about 10 seconds.
If that.
In addition, during this page load, Chrome will not work.
And everything else has ground to a halt.
Even Twitter is straining to keep up as I type this.
I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while surfing the new site, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is being unable to get the preferences to actually change anything, despite the open source 'Bazaar' architecture seemingly allowing the community to quickly suggest a fix without waiting for a proprietary solution to release a solution.
My 486/66 with 8 megs of ram printing on a daisy-wheel printer and posting that surface mail to OSDN directly to request a printout of the front page by return post delivers content faster than this cutting edge computational monster on government-grade bandwidth.
From a productivity standpoint, browsing Slashdot no longer just occupies my employer's paid time but interrupts my personal life and sleep pattern too now.
Slashdot addicts, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use Slashdot over Digg.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418587</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425057</id>
	<title>I love inferior code</title>
	<author>sjdude</author>
	<datestamp>1245695400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I used to hate all the outsourcing businesses but have come to realize that I make a pretty damn good living fixing other people's shitty code irrespective of their nationality. Yes, I'd prefer to just do things right the first time, but if US companies stupidly insist on sending design work to cheaper, less qualified people, I will happily keep taking their money to fix the shitty code they get for having done so. Penny wise, pound foolish...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I used to hate all the outsourcing businesses but have come to realize that I make a pretty damn good living fixing other people 's shitty code irrespective of their nationality .
Yes , I 'd prefer to just do things right the first time , but if US companies stupidly insist on sending design work to cheaper , less qualified people , I will happily keep taking their money to fix the shitty code they get for having done so .
Penny wise , pound foolish.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used to hate all the outsourcing businesses but have come to realize that I make a pretty damn good living fixing other people's shitty code irrespective of their nationality.
Yes, I'd prefer to just do things right the first time, but if US companies stupidly insist on sending design work to cheaper, less qualified people, I will happily keep taking their money to fix the shitty code they get for having done so.
Penny wise, pound foolish...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417827</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>Exception Duck</author>
	<datestamp>1245701160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>$11,400,000,000,000 debt</p></div></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 11,400,000,000,000 debt</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$11,400,000,000,000 debt
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417629</id>
	<title>My observations.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245613140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On one level, that may be true. There are a lot of people who think that College is supposed to be the same as a tech school. They go to college expecting to be trained for a specific career. Some colleges have begun to oblige and are acting like the trade schools that some students (and parents) expect them to be.</p><p>If you've only been trained in retreading tires, you don't know how to mount a new tire on the rim and balance it. When the CS requirements of some schools consist of "MS Office" in three different sections, how in the fuck do they expect their grads to know anything?</p><p>Now, on the other hand there are plents of schools who are giving real and complete tech educations. These people are constantly getting screwed by employers who give up after interviewing a few of the other kind of student.</p><p>Lastly you have the tech executives who want nothing more than to lower costs. They want the cheapest labor, and nothing else. They are pushing to raise the H1B caps. They are pushing for outsourcing. It has nothing to do with the quality of US grads. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they want to pay people less money. If I spend 6 years in college and have a Master's degree, you can kiss my ass with your $35k offer. The guys right off the boat from Bombay will be willing to take that sort of job. They don't have $50-200k in student loans to pay back. It's basic economics. What this glut is doing is providing a greater supply of labor in order to drive down prices.</p><p>If you're the only plumber in your town, you can charge pretty much whatever you want. No one else has the skills, knowledge or tools to do that work. What happens if overnight four more plumbers come to town? Instead of being able to charge $75 per hour, you may have to cut back to $50. What happens if ten more plumbers come to town? You'll suddenly find yourself working for minimum wage. That's what certain executive-types are trying to do to technology.</p><p>LK</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On one level , that may be true .
There are a lot of people who think that College is supposed to be the same as a tech school .
They go to college expecting to be trained for a specific career .
Some colleges have begun to oblige and are acting like the trade schools that some students ( and parents ) expect them to be.If you 've only been trained in retreading tires , you do n't know how to mount a new tire on the rim and balance it .
When the CS requirements of some schools consist of " MS Office " in three different sections , how in the fuck do they expect their grads to know anything ? Now , on the other hand there are plents of schools who are giving real and complete tech educations .
These people are constantly getting screwed by employers who give up after interviewing a few of the other kind of student.Lastly you have the tech executives who want nothing more than to lower costs .
They want the cheapest labor , and nothing else .
They are pushing to raise the H1B caps .
They are pushing for outsourcing .
It has nothing to do with the quality of US grads .
It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they want to pay people less money .
If I spend 6 years in college and have a Master 's degree , you can kiss my ass with your $ 35k offer .
The guys right off the boat from Bombay will be willing to take that sort of job .
They do n't have $ 50-200k in student loans to pay back .
It 's basic economics .
What this glut is doing is providing a greater supply of labor in order to drive down prices.If you 're the only plumber in your town , you can charge pretty much whatever you want .
No one else has the skills , knowledge or tools to do that work .
What happens if overnight four more plumbers come to town ?
Instead of being able to charge $ 75 per hour , you may have to cut back to $ 50 .
What happens if ten more plumbers come to town ?
You 'll suddenly find yourself working for minimum wage .
That 's what certain executive-types are trying to do to technology.LK</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On one level, that may be true.
There are a lot of people who think that College is supposed to be the same as a tech school.
They go to college expecting to be trained for a specific career.
Some colleges have begun to oblige and are acting like the trade schools that some students (and parents) expect them to be.If you've only been trained in retreading tires, you don't know how to mount a new tire on the rim and balance it.
When the CS requirements of some schools consist of "MS Office" in three different sections, how in the fuck do they expect their grads to know anything?Now, on the other hand there are plents of schools who are giving real and complete tech educations.
These people are constantly getting screwed by employers who give up after interviewing a few of the other kind of student.Lastly you have the tech executives who want nothing more than to lower costs.
They want the cheapest labor, and nothing else.
They are pushing to raise the H1B caps.
They are pushing for outsourcing.
It has nothing to do with the quality of US grads.
It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they want to pay people less money.
If I spend 6 years in college and have a Master's degree, you can kiss my ass with your $35k offer.
The guys right off the boat from Bombay will be willing to take that sort of job.
They don't have $50-200k in student loans to pay back.
It's basic economics.
What this glut is doing is providing a greater supply of labor in order to drive down prices.If you're the only plumber in your town, you can charge pretty much whatever you want.
No one else has the skills, knowledge or tools to do that work.
What happens if overnight four more plumbers come to town?
Instead of being able to charge $75 per hour, you may have to cut back to $50.
What happens if ten more plumbers come to town?
You'll suddenly find yourself working for minimum wage.
That's what certain executive-types are trying to do to technology.LK</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417603</id>
	<title>Re:ORLY?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245612960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>America doesn't hold a monopoly on incompetence you know.</p><p>Yup. No kidding. Working for a large US company with IT outsourced to a company using staff shipped in from India was a nightmare.</p><p>These geniuses couldn't troubleshoot any server issues. They would only restart when the issue would reappear they would just bounce it back to IT as not their problem.</p><p>Coding software? They would happily write bugs in the software claiming they followed the business requirements and happily thought they should get a pat on the back for writing software that wouldn't work.</p></div></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>America does n't hold a monopoly on incompetence you know.Yup .
No kidding .
Working for a large US company with IT outsourced to a company using staff shipped in from India was a nightmare.These geniuses could n't troubleshoot any server issues .
They would only restart when the issue would reappear they would just bounce it back to IT as not their problem.Coding software ?
They would happily write bugs in the software claiming they followed the business requirements and happily thought they should get a pat on the back for writing software that would n't work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>America doesn't hold a monopoly on incompetence you know.Yup.
No kidding.
Working for a large US company with IT outsourced to a company using staff shipped in from India was a nightmare.These geniuses couldn't troubleshoot any server issues.
They would only restart when the issue would reappear they would just bounce it back to IT as not their problem.Coding software?
They would happily write bugs in the software claiming they followed the business requirements and happily thought they should get a pat on the back for writing software that wouldn't work.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417441</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418555</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245664740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree. I worked for 3 months in such outsourcing company before i called it quits.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree .
I worked for 3 months in such outsourcing company before i called it quits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree.
I worked for 3 months in such outsourcing company before i called it quits.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417919</id>
	<title>May or may not be entirely true...</title>
	<author>boredinspired</author>
	<datestamp>1245701880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am from India but have been working in the UK for the last 3 years and before that I worked for 2 years in India.</p><p>Having worked here in UK I have come across only a couple of super brilliant techies and at the same time I have worked with some of the worst coders ever, keeping in mind they claim to have worked for 10+ years in the industry but it doesn't reflect in their code<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... they wouldn't even know whats the advantage of using 'if-else' instead of 'if' and so on.</p><p>The two years I worked in India (2003-2005) I never came across above mentioned level of incompetence. Even if a guy was fresh out of college he would have been dedicated to sit through the entire night to understand the stuff he was about to handle so that no mistakes were made. But this happened in companies which were no where close the size of Infy or Wipro and the likes. These were small companies formed by some very highly competitive and hard working people.</p><p>But I believe the scenario may have changed since then in India. When US and rest of the West started investing in India they gave some of the most unbelievable salaries to people who didn't think it was even possible to earn that much. I think the very first or second batch of people who started getting those kind of salaries were the people who came into the 'business of coding' were the ones who really wanted to be there in the first place i.e. loved being a techie , loved coding and delivered some serious quality.</p><p>But the money they were getting kind of stuck into the heads of the people who were to follow. They wanted to get in there for the lifestyle which could only be afforded if you had those kind of salaries. People who may not necessarily have loved to code for the rest of  their lives but yes they do want that money. The effect of the money was such that even 10 year old kids in school wanted to be future 'Software Engineer' because their friend's daddy was one and was driving around in a then expensive Maruti Esteem (one of the first luxury cars to be manufactured in India and everybody wanted it)</p><p>I guess maybe that's the same in US as well. Most of the people who want to get into being a techie is probably because they don't really love coding but they want the money that quite a lot of people have managed to earn being in the same line of work.</p><p>Both bad and good coders (i like that term better than Software Engineer) exist be it in India or in the US and somewhere in the middle (recently I had the chance to maintain something written in Romania, and it was such a nightmare). If the company in the US does not interview the entire team in India/Philippines/whereever, then they themselves are taking a risk. Big shops like Infy, Wipro etc have a hiring process but the sheer size of these shops is clearly indicative of the risk. It should not be so difficult for a company to set up a small team of 2 or 3 competitive techies in the US company who interview the people in the outsourcing shop before they get started on the work ?</p><p>Or is it that even those 2 or 3 highly competitive people are not around, or if they are around they don't manage to see the good from the bad ? Or is it that the bottom line is so so so f*****g important that those companies don't even want to spend even little money and time on implementing a shortlisting criteria when they outsource work ?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am from India but have been working in the UK for the last 3 years and before that I worked for 2 years in India.Having worked here in UK I have come across only a couple of super brilliant techies and at the same time I have worked with some of the worst coders ever , keeping in mind they claim to have worked for 10 + years in the industry but it does n't reflect in their code ... they would n't even know whats the advantage of using 'if-else ' instead of 'if ' and so on.The two years I worked in India ( 2003-2005 ) I never came across above mentioned level of incompetence .
Even if a guy was fresh out of college he would have been dedicated to sit through the entire night to understand the stuff he was about to handle so that no mistakes were made .
But this happened in companies which were no where close the size of Infy or Wipro and the likes .
These were small companies formed by some very highly competitive and hard working people.But I believe the scenario may have changed since then in India .
When US and rest of the West started investing in India they gave some of the most unbelievable salaries to people who did n't think it was even possible to earn that much .
I think the very first or second batch of people who started getting those kind of salaries were the people who came into the 'business of coding ' were the ones who really wanted to be there in the first place i.e .
loved being a techie , loved coding and delivered some serious quality.But the money they were getting kind of stuck into the heads of the people who were to follow .
They wanted to get in there for the lifestyle which could only be afforded if you had those kind of salaries .
People who may not necessarily have loved to code for the rest of their lives but yes they do want that money .
The effect of the money was such that even 10 year old kids in school wanted to be future 'Software Engineer ' because their friend 's daddy was one and was driving around in a then expensive Maruti Esteem ( one of the first luxury cars to be manufactured in India and everybody wanted it ) I guess maybe that 's the same in US as well .
Most of the people who want to get into being a techie is probably because they do n't really love coding but they want the money that quite a lot of people have managed to earn being in the same line of work.Both bad and good coders ( i like that term better than Software Engineer ) exist be it in India or in the US and somewhere in the middle ( recently I had the chance to maintain something written in Romania , and it was such a nightmare ) .
If the company in the US does not interview the entire team in India/Philippines/whereever , then they themselves are taking a risk .
Big shops like Infy , Wipro etc have a hiring process but the sheer size of these shops is clearly indicative of the risk .
It should not be so difficult for a company to set up a small team of 2 or 3 competitive techies in the US company who interview the people in the outsourcing shop before they get started on the work ? Or is it that even those 2 or 3 highly competitive people are not around , or if they are around they do n't manage to see the good from the bad ?
Or is it that the bottom line is so so so f * * * * * g important that those companies do n't even want to spend even little money and time on implementing a shortlisting criteria when they outsource work ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am from India but have been working in the UK for the last 3 years and before that I worked for 2 years in India.Having worked here in UK I have come across only a couple of super brilliant techies and at the same time I have worked with some of the worst coders ever, keeping in mind they claim to have worked for 10+ years in the industry but it doesn't reflect in their code ... they wouldn't even know whats the advantage of using 'if-else' instead of 'if' and so on.The two years I worked in India (2003-2005) I never came across above mentioned level of incompetence.
Even if a guy was fresh out of college he would have been dedicated to sit through the entire night to understand the stuff he was about to handle so that no mistakes were made.
But this happened in companies which were no where close the size of Infy or Wipro and the likes.
These were small companies formed by some very highly competitive and hard working people.But I believe the scenario may have changed since then in India.
When US and rest of the West started investing in India they gave some of the most unbelievable salaries to people who didn't think it was even possible to earn that much.
I think the very first or second batch of people who started getting those kind of salaries were the people who came into the 'business of coding' were the ones who really wanted to be there in the first place i.e.
loved being a techie , loved coding and delivered some serious quality.But the money they were getting kind of stuck into the heads of the people who were to follow.
They wanted to get in there for the lifestyle which could only be afforded if you had those kind of salaries.
People who may not necessarily have loved to code for the rest of  their lives but yes they do want that money.
The effect of the money was such that even 10 year old kids in school wanted to be future 'Software Engineer' because their friend's daddy was one and was driving around in a then expensive Maruti Esteem (one of the first luxury cars to be manufactured in India and everybody wanted it)I guess maybe that's the same in US as well.
Most of the people who want to get into being a techie is probably because they don't really love coding but they want the money that quite a lot of people have managed to earn being in the same line of work.Both bad and good coders (i like that term better than Software Engineer) exist be it in India or in the US and somewhere in the middle (recently I had the chance to maintain something written in Romania, and it was such a nightmare).
If the company in the US does not interview the entire team in India/Philippines/whereever, then they themselves are taking a risk.
Big shops like Infy, Wipro etc have a hiring process but the sheer size of these shops is clearly indicative of the risk.
It should not be so difficult for a company to set up a small team of 2 or 3 competitive techies in the US company who interview the people in the outsourcing shop before they get started on the work ?Or is it that even those 2 or 3 highly competitive people are not around, or if they are around they don't manage to see the good from the bad ?
Or is it that the bottom line is so so so f*****g important that those companies don't even want to spend even little money and time on implementing a shortlisting criteria when they outsource work ?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420095</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245677280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The money is coming from somewhere</p></div><p>You PRINT money OUT OF THIN AIR! What part of Federal Reserve dont you understand?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The money is coming from somewhereYou PRINT money OUT OF THIN AIR !
What part of Federal Reserve dont you understand ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The money is coming from somewhereYou PRINT money OUT OF THIN AIR!
What part of Federal Reserve dont you understand?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424345</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Majestix</author>
	<datestamp>1245692880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Im in agreement.  Though i muddle thru it because its home...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Im in agreement .
Though i muddle thru it because its home.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Im in agreement.
Though i muddle thru it because its home...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419575</id>
	<title>Hang Our TREASONOUS ELITE, Deport Indians</title>
	<author>cryophan</author>
	<datestamp>1245673380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>our elite have sold us out, which is treasonous. Hang them.

Time we get serious about the class war</htmltext>
<tokenext>our elite have sold us out , which is treasonous .
Hang them .
Time we get serious about the class war</tokentext>
<sentencetext>our elite have sold us out, which is treasonous.
Hang them.
Time we get serious about the class war</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420875</id>
	<title>Firefox?</title>
	<author>charnov</author>
	<datestamp>1245681180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am running on 3.0.11 with adblock on Windows 7 and I don't see any of that...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am running on 3.0.11 with adblock on Windows 7 and I do n't see any of that.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am running on 3.0.11 with adblock on Windows 7 and I don't see any of that...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421921</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>fostware</author>
	<datestamp>1245684780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't forget Nikolai Tesla, who was an immigrant to the US, only to be screwed over by his US benefactors and peers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't forget Nikolai Tesla , who was an immigrant to the US , only to be screwed over by his US benefactors and peers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't forget Nikolai Tesla, who was an immigrant to the US, only to be screwed over by his US benefactors and peers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418517</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422509</id>
	<title>Re:India: The skrypt kiddies of programming</title>
	<author>edivad</author>
	<datestamp>1245686700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> <i>I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense</i>

Amen. I won't say that all the programmers in India suck, because that would be an inaccurate stereotype. However, I will say that The worst code I have ever seen from American programmers I have worked with was better than the best code that came back from Indian outsourced groups. I suspect that all the GOOD INDIAN PROGRAMMERS CAME TO AMERICA TO MAKE BETTER MONEY.

Why would you hire the leftovers? Really, you think that you can just get better quality by spending less? Really?</p></div><p> <b>+1</b> <br>
The (very few, that is) Good Developers came to USA, and the ones that you get outsourcing are the very bottom of the barrel.<br>
The quality of their work is <b>AT LEAST</b> substandard, simply because they have no passion for the job.<br>
Plus, when they say they assign your project N developers, they aren't really N.<br>
So, at the very end, between bad quality of the work, and cheating about staffing, you end paying more than employing US developers (or bringing the good ones in US).<br>
Oh, and, there's also the fact that the managers in US that are assigned to oversee outsourced projects, get really burned very quickly.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs , short cuts , and shit that does n't make a damn bit of sense Amen .
I wo n't say that all the programmers in India suck , because that would be an inaccurate stereotype .
However , I will say that The worst code I have ever seen from American programmers I have worked with was better than the best code that came back from Indian outsourced groups .
I suspect that all the GOOD INDIAN PROGRAMMERS CAME TO AMERICA TO MAKE BETTER MONEY .
Why would you hire the leftovers ?
Really , you think that you can just get better quality by spending less ?
Really ? + 1 The ( very few , that is ) Good Developers came to USA , and the ones that you get outsourcing are the very bottom of the barrel .
The quality of their work is AT LEAST substandard , simply because they have no passion for the job .
Plus , when they say they assign your project N developers , they are n't really N . So , at the very end , between bad quality of the work , and cheating about staffing , you end paying more than employing US developers ( or bringing the good ones in US ) .
Oh , and , there 's also the fact that the managers in US that are assigned to oversee outsourced projects , get really burned very quickly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense

Amen.
I won't say that all the programmers in India suck, because that would be an inaccurate stereotype.
However, I will say that The worst code I have ever seen from American programmers I have worked with was better than the best code that came back from Indian outsourced groups.
I suspect that all the GOOD INDIAN PROGRAMMERS CAME TO AMERICA TO MAKE BETTER MONEY.
Why would you hire the leftovers?
Really, you think that you can just get better quality by spending less?
Really? +1 
The (very few, that is) Good Developers came to USA, and the ones that you get outsourcing are the very bottom of the barrel.
The quality of their work is AT LEAST substandard, simply because they have no passion for the job.
Plus, when they say they assign your project N developers, they aren't really N.
So, at the very end, between bad quality of the work, and cheating about staffing, you end paying more than employing US developers (or bringing the good ones in US).
Oh, and, there's also the fact that the managers in US that are assigned to oversee outsourced projects, get really burned very quickly.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417683</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422901</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245687960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><blockquote><div><p> If Indian sales generate $5 million then it lowers the amount they need to charge in America to make a profit by $5 million. If films etc weren't sold at a lower price in countries with lower wages then they would have higher prices in the countries where they are sold in order to cover the lost revenue.</p></div><div><p>That's not true. The companies are out to make a profit not break even. The DVD's cost $20 because there are a lot of stupid people that are willing to pay $20 for them. That is the "market value". They cost $2.50 in India because no one in India would pay $20 for a DVD. $2.50 is the market value in India. If you want DVD's to cost $2.50 in US then stop buying them until the prices fall to $2.50.</p></div></blockquote></div></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If Indian sales generate $ 5 million then it lowers the amount they need to charge in America to make a profit by $ 5 million .
If films etc were n't sold at a lower price in countries with lower wages then they would have higher prices in the countries where they are sold in order to cover the lost revenue.That 's not true .
The companies are out to make a profit not break even .
The DVD 's cost $ 20 because there are a lot of stupid people that are willing to pay $ 20 for them .
That is the " market value " .
They cost $ 2.50 in India because no one in India would pay $ 20 for a DVD .
$ 2.50 is the market value in India .
If you want DVD 's to cost $ 2.50 in US then stop buying them until the prices fall to $ 2.50 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> If Indian sales generate $5 million then it lowers the amount they need to charge in America to make a profit by $5 million.
If films etc weren't sold at a lower price in countries with lower wages then they would have higher prices in the countries where they are sold in order to cover the lost revenue.That's not true.
The companies are out to make a profit not break even.
The DVD's cost $20 because there are a lot of stupid people that are willing to pay $20 for them.
That is the "market value".
They cost $2.50 in India because no one in India would pay $20 for a DVD.
$2.50 is the market value in India.
If you want DVD's to cost $2.50 in US then stop buying them until the prices fall to $2.50.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418367</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28429503</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245667260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A nation whose success was built on waves of immigration? Every immigration wave to USA since 1900 has resulted in recessions: 1906-1920 resulted in the Great Depression. 1965 Immigration Act resulted in the 1973-1982 economic disaster. 1990 H-1B program was started which resulted in the 1991-1993 recession. 1998-2000 the visa levels were increased into the millions - biggest disaster since Great Depression has occurred. The facts don't lie: immigration causes recession. Nearly everything invented in America was invented by people born here. There ARE a few rare exceptions. But the cost for those exceptions is too high - mass immigration on net is a negative drag on the U.S. economy. Indian workers are ranked 124th in world productivity. Americans are ranked #1.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A nation whose success was built on waves of immigration ?
Every immigration wave to USA since 1900 has resulted in recessions : 1906-1920 resulted in the Great Depression .
1965 Immigration Act resulted in the 1973-1982 economic disaster .
1990 H-1B program was started which resulted in the 1991-1993 recession .
1998-2000 the visa levels were increased into the millions - biggest disaster since Great Depression has occurred .
The facts do n't lie : immigration causes recession .
Nearly everything invented in America was invented by people born here .
There ARE a few rare exceptions .
But the cost for those exceptions is too high - mass immigration on net is a negative drag on the U.S. economy. Indian workers are ranked 124th in world productivity .
Americans are ranked # 1 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A nation whose success was built on waves of immigration?
Every immigration wave to USA since 1900 has resulted in recessions: 1906-1920 resulted in the Great Depression.
1965 Immigration Act resulted in the 1973-1982 economic disaster.
1990 H-1B program was started which resulted in the 1991-1993 recession.
1998-2000 the visa levels were increased into the millions - biggest disaster since Great Depression has occurred.
The facts don't lie: immigration causes recession.
Nearly everything invented in America was invented by people born here.
There ARE a few rare exceptions.
But the cost for those exceptions is too high - mass immigration on net is a negative drag on the U.S. economy. Indian workers are ranked 124th in world productivity.
Americans are ranked #1.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418517</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417493</id>
	<title>...News at 11.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245612060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>CEO of Indian outsourcing company says Indians are better workers than Americans.  In other news, CEO of GM says that GM is a better company than Toyota.</htmltext>
<tokenext>CEO of Indian outsourcing company says Indians are better workers than Americans .
In other news , CEO of GM says that GM is a better company than Toyota .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>CEO of Indian outsourcing company says Indians are better workers than Americans.
In other news, CEO of GM says that GM is a better company than Toyota.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28440683</id>
	<title>Re:What a crock of shit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245778860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>and litterly every program I have inherited from some out sourcing group is utter crap</p></div></blockquote><p>Including the spelling checker, I see.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>and litterly every program I have inherited from some out sourcing group is utter crapIncluding the spelling checker , I see .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and litterly every program I have inherited from some out sourcing group is utter crapIncluding the spelling checker, I see.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417661</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418167</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>twostix</author>
	<datestamp>1245704220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can imagine myself...transported back to pre-civil war America.</p><p>"Evn" making impassioned arguments against the norths irritation with having to compete with the cheap goods produced by slaves and indentured servants coming out of the south.</p><p>"The masses have spoken, cheap cotton is here to stay!  Citizens of the north will just have to compete!"</p><p>Are you aware that you're expecting western workers to compete with, in part, factories full of Chinese political prisoners and indentured servants?  As quite a few Chinese factories are.  So why is government regulation ridiculous? Your expecting the west to compet with Chinese Government factories, not a peep about that, but we should bend over backwards to accomodate them?  Try go into China or India and see if they have the same open trade - sell your countrymen out for a few cents per widget policy - as your own country does.</p><p>Now given that they protect their borders fairly vigorously and are currently moving most of the real wealth out of the US and into their own, doesn't it stand to reason that *their* policy (which is the same policy that the US grew to power using) is better at enriching a country than the ridiculous "ideal" that almost uncompromisingly white collar middle class westerns espouse is?</p><p>When the US has gone the way of Argentina as it rapidly is...or god forbid the USSR, and China and India are booming because of their pragmatic often heavy handed trading policies I wonder if the western "open trade at any cost with anyone..no matter how lopsided" crowd will be proud of themselves?  Perhaps, as then they'll be able to have the opportunity to work in a factory for $3 an hour as their ideology comes full circle and the Chinese Government starts opening factories for you to work in.</p><p>Oh wait it all ready is  <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/27/AR2008012702380.html" title="washingtonpost.com">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/27/AR2008012702380.html</a> [washingtonpost.com]</p><p>Wouldn't it stand to reason to have a trading policy that would demand that *China* operate in a competitive fashion if it wants to sell it's goods in your country?  Given that *without* the US they were nothing but a poor struggling agrarian country anyway.</p><p>India's a slightly different kettle of fish, but 99\% of manufacturing is done in China and you referred to physical goods so...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I can imagine myself...transported back to pre-civil war America .
" Evn " making impassioned arguments against the norths irritation with having to compete with the cheap goods produced by slaves and indentured servants coming out of the south .
" The masses have spoken , cheap cotton is here to stay !
Citizens of the north will just have to compete !
" Are you aware that you 're expecting western workers to compete with , in part , factories full of Chinese political prisoners and indentured servants ?
As quite a few Chinese factories are .
So why is government regulation ridiculous ?
Your expecting the west to compet with Chinese Government factories , not a peep about that , but we should bend over backwards to accomodate them ?
Try go into China or India and see if they have the same open trade - sell your countrymen out for a few cents per widget policy - as your own country does.Now given that they protect their borders fairly vigorously and are currently moving most of the real wealth out of the US and into their own , does n't it stand to reason that * their * policy ( which is the same policy that the US grew to power using ) is better at enriching a country than the ridiculous " ideal " that almost uncompromisingly white collar middle class westerns espouse is ? When the US has gone the way of Argentina as it rapidly is...or god forbid the USSR , and China and India are booming because of their pragmatic often heavy handed trading policies I wonder if the western " open trade at any cost with anyone..no matter how lopsided " crowd will be proud of themselves ?
Perhaps , as then they 'll be able to have the opportunity to work in a factory for $ 3 an hour as their ideology comes full circle and the Chinese Government starts opening factories for you to work in.Oh wait it all ready is http : //www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/27/AR2008012702380.html [ washingtonpost.com ] Would n't it stand to reason to have a trading policy that would demand that * China * operate in a competitive fashion if it wants to sell it 's goods in your country ?
Given that * without * the US they were nothing but a poor struggling agrarian country anyway.India 's a slightly different kettle of fish , but 99 \ % of manufacturing is done in China and you referred to physical goods so.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can imagine myself...transported back to pre-civil war America.
"Evn" making impassioned arguments against the norths irritation with having to compete with the cheap goods produced by slaves and indentured servants coming out of the south.
"The masses have spoken, cheap cotton is here to stay!
Citizens of the north will just have to compete!
"Are you aware that you're expecting western workers to compete with, in part, factories full of Chinese political prisoners and indentured servants?
As quite a few Chinese factories are.
So why is government regulation ridiculous?
Your expecting the west to compet with Chinese Government factories, not a peep about that, but we should bend over backwards to accomodate them?
Try go into China or India and see if they have the same open trade - sell your countrymen out for a few cents per widget policy - as your own country does.Now given that they protect their borders fairly vigorously and are currently moving most of the real wealth out of the US and into their own, doesn't it stand to reason that *their* policy (which is the same policy that the US grew to power using) is better at enriching a country than the ridiculous "ideal" that almost uncompromisingly white collar middle class westerns espouse is?When the US has gone the way of Argentina as it rapidly is...or god forbid the USSR, and China and India are booming because of their pragmatic often heavy handed trading policies I wonder if the western "open trade at any cost with anyone..no matter how lopsided" crowd will be proud of themselves?
Perhaps, as then they'll be able to have the opportunity to work in a factory for $3 an hour as their ideology comes full circle and the Chinese Government starts opening factories for you to work in.Oh wait it all ready is  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/27/AR2008012702380.html [washingtonpost.com]Wouldn't it stand to reason to have a trading policy that would demand that *China* operate in a competitive fashion if it wants to sell it's goods in your country?
Given that *without* the US they were nothing but a poor struggling agrarian country anyway.India's a slightly different kettle of fish, but 99\% of manufacturing is done in China and you referred to physical goods so...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418393</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245663180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Use NoScript. It loads me a nice reasonable rendition of slashdot without all the bullshit. Slashdot is actually the reason I started using the plugin. I don't know what the fuck Slashdot coders are doing that is so script intensive on a fucking news/forum site since Google docs and Gmail which uses tons upon tons of Javascript runs reasonably while what should be a simple site of html,css, and a conservative amount of javascript feels like I am loading 72 instances of Eclipse on a 486. Get your shit together slashdot.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Use NoScript .
It loads me a nice reasonable rendition of slashdot without all the bullshit .
Slashdot is actually the reason I started using the plugin .
I do n't know what the fuck Slashdot coders are doing that is so script intensive on a fucking news/forum site since Google docs and Gmail which uses tons upon tons of Javascript runs reasonably while what should be a simple site of html,css , and a conservative amount of javascript feels like I am loading 72 instances of Eclipse on a 486 .
Get your shit together slashdot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Use NoScript.
It loads me a nice reasonable rendition of slashdot without all the bullshit.
Slashdot is actually the reason I started using the plugin.
I don't know what the fuck Slashdot coders are doing that is so script intensive on a fucking news/forum site since Google docs and Gmail which uses tons upon tons of Javascript runs reasonably while what should be a simple site of html,css, and a conservative amount of javascript feels like I am loading 72 instances of Eclipse on a 486.
Get your shit together slashdot.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419831</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245675420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>With adblock, block the following URL pattern:</p><p><a href="http://c.fsdn.com/sd/all-minified.js*" title="fsdn.com" rel="nofollow">http://c.fsdn.com/sd/all-minified.js*</a> [fsdn.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>With adblock , block the following URL pattern : http : //c.fsdn.com/sd/all-minified.js * [ fsdn.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>With adblock, block the following URL pattern:http://c.fsdn.com/sd/all-minified.js* [fsdn.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418729</id>
	<title>Re:Americans are unemployable...</title>
	<author>l3v1</author>
	<datestamp>1245666300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A good point. But you see, if one can be as good for the third of that sum, then to compete with, those americans will just need to change their living standards, stop living off of credit, and so on. The rest of the world manages too. And you don't have to think third world countries. E.g. I'm in Europe, my income is about 1/4 of someone in the US doing the same job, my income tax is ~20 times higher than a CA resident's for the same income, the gas price is ~double the US average, and I could go on. And I still don't die in hunger.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A good point .
But you see , if one can be as good for the third of that sum , then to compete with , those americans will just need to change their living standards , stop living off of credit , and so on .
The rest of the world manages too .
And you do n't have to think third world countries .
E.g. I 'm in Europe , my income is about 1/4 of someone in the US doing the same job , my income tax is ~ 20 times higher than a CA resident 's for the same income , the gas price is ~ double the US average , and I could go on .
And I still do n't die in hunger .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A good point.
But you see, if one can be as good for the third of that sum, then to compete with, those americans will just need to change their living standards, stop living off of credit, and so on.
The rest of the world manages too.
And you don't have to think third world countries.
E.g. I'm in Europe, my income is about 1/4 of someone in the US doing the same job, my income tax is ~20 times higher than a CA resident's for the same income, the gas price is ~double the US average, and I could go on.
And I still don't die in hunger.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28439987</id>
	<title>We have HCL for support in our corp</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245776340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And they never pay attention to details nor do they follow the process. I guess he's never called his own help desk.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And they never pay attention to details nor do they follow the process .
I guess he 's never called his own help desk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And they never pay attention to details nor do they follow the process.
I guess he's never called his own help desk.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420285</id>
	<title>Re:#1:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245678600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"if you are poor, you tend to be more highly motivated than when you are rich"</p><p>Citation please, or in other words, bullshit. You're poor for a reason, and the main reason is that you're not nearly as motivated as someone who is successful.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" if you are poor , you tend to be more highly motivated than when you are rich " Citation please , or in other words , bullshit .
You 're poor for a reason , and the main reason is that you 're not nearly as motivated as someone who is successful .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"if you are poor, you tend to be more highly motivated than when you are rich"Citation please, or in other words, bullshit.
You're poor for a reason, and the main reason is that you're not nearly as motivated as someone who is successful.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417615</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424903</id>
	<title>Litmus test</title>
	<author>c\_jonescc</author>
	<datestamp>1245694860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>[1] Ask a bunch of IT people, on an IT focused site, that worry about outsourcing what they think about the workers that may get their jobs in the future.<br>[2] Get back a long list of responses about how Indians aren't any better and the USA is the rulez.<br>[3] Veil overt racism under the premise of cost of living and "reasonable" employee expectations.<br>[4] ???<br>[5] Profit? or layoff?</htmltext>
<tokenext>[ 1 ] Ask a bunch of IT people , on an IT focused site , that worry about outsourcing what they think about the workers that may get their jobs in the future .
[ 2 ] Get back a long list of responses about how Indians are n't any better and the USA is the rulez .
[ 3 ] Veil overt racism under the premise of cost of living and " reasonable " employee expectations .
[ 4 ] ? ? ?
[ 5 ] Profit ?
or layoff ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>[1] Ask a bunch of IT people, on an IT focused site, that worry about outsourcing what they think about the workers that may get their jobs in the future.
[2] Get back a long list of responses about how Indians aren't any better and the USA is the rulez.
[3] Veil overt racism under the premise of cost of living and "reasonable" employee expectations.
[4] ???
[5] Profit?
or layoff?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417451</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>t0qer</author>
	<datestamp>1245611700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would totally mod you up if I had points. Your comment was so poetically simple yet dead on.  Thank you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would totally mod you up if I had points .
Your comment was so poetically simple yet dead on .
Thank you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would totally mod you up if I had points.
Your comment was so poetically simple yet dead on.
Thank you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417399</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422607</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245687000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most of the over-seas programmers were trained in the US universities, where they had an better chance of being accepted because the university needed to meet diversity quota's.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most of the over-seas programmers were trained in the US universities , where they had an better chance of being accepted because the university needed to meet diversity quota 's .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most of the over-seas programmers were trained in the US universities, where they had an better chance of being accepted because the university needed to meet diversity quota's.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418351</id>
	<title>I'll guess I'll complain on Slashdot again</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245662760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Last time I complained about M$ and their H1 visas, I almost got a job interview from Microsoft.  This was right about the time before people were finally acknowledging the recession.  I have a degree in scientific computing from Carnegie Mellon University and I've developed software at home for over twenty years.  I've almost solo coded entire MMORPGS(takes many years).  I've *NEVER* in my 7 years of job searching ever found a job through online.  I've been unemployed for over 6 of my past 7 years having graduated from college.  I put out thousands of resumes and talked to dozens of head hunters, but apparently no one wanted to hire.  I don't think my only option should be: Start your own business and basement dwell.  But hey, thats just me, a spoiled American I guess.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Last time I complained about M $ and their H1 visas , I almost got a job interview from Microsoft .
This was right about the time before people were finally acknowledging the recession .
I have a degree in scientific computing from Carnegie Mellon University and I 've developed software at home for over twenty years .
I 've almost solo coded entire MMORPGS ( takes many years ) .
I 've * NEVER * in my 7 years of job searching ever found a job through online .
I 've been unemployed for over 6 of my past 7 years having graduated from college .
I put out thousands of resumes and talked to dozens of head hunters , but apparently no one wanted to hire .
I do n't think my only option should be : Start your own business and basement dwell .
But hey , thats just me , a spoiled American I guess .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Last time I complained about M$ and their H1 visas, I almost got a job interview from Microsoft.
This was right about the time before people were finally acknowledging the recession.
I have a degree in scientific computing from Carnegie Mellon University and I've developed software at home for over twenty years.
I've almost solo coded entire MMORPGS(takes many years).
I've *NEVER* in my 7 years of job searching ever found a job through online.
I've been unemployed for over 6 of my past 7 years having graduated from college.
I put out thousands of resumes and talked to dozens of head hunters, but apparently no one wanted to hire.
I don't think my only option should be: Start your own business and basement dwell.
But hey, thats just me, a spoiled American I guess.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418439</id>
	<title>Americans are unemployable??</title>
	<author>Mick R</author>
	<datestamp>1245663600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Really??

I've had the particular misfortune to work with a number of Indian engineers, electrical, mechanical and civil, and almost without exception the only "skill" they had was that of sucking up to their bosses.  Not one of them had a single clue when it came to real world problem solving and only two were capable of realising how useless their education had been.  The rest, after decades in the work force in some cases, were utterly incapable of seeing anything but the gold edged certificate they had been awarded from their university and refused to acknowledge that ANYONE could have a valid thought but themselves, while consistently producing the most ridiculous ideas (often a first year apprentice could see it would never work) and outright dishonest reports for their directors.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Really ? ?
I 've had the particular misfortune to work with a number of Indian engineers , electrical , mechanical and civil , and almost without exception the only " skill " they had was that of sucking up to their bosses .
Not one of them had a single clue when it came to real world problem solving and only two were capable of realising how useless their education had been .
The rest , after decades in the work force in some cases , were utterly incapable of seeing anything but the gold edged certificate they had been awarded from their university and refused to acknowledge that ANYONE could have a valid thought but themselves , while consistently producing the most ridiculous ideas ( often a first year apprentice could see it would never work ) and outright dishonest reports for their directors .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Really??
I've had the particular misfortune to work with a number of Indian engineers, electrical, mechanical and civil, and almost without exception the only "skill" they had was that of sucking up to their bosses.
Not one of them had a single clue when it came to real world problem solving and only two were capable of realising how useless their education had been.
The rest, after decades in the work force in some cases, were utterly incapable of seeing anything but the gold edged certificate they had been awarded from their university and refused to acknowledge that ANYONE could have a valid thought but themselves, while consistently producing the most ridiculous ideas (often a first year apprentice could see it would never work) and outright dishonest reports for their directors.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420323</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245678720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes Americans should be unemployable - Russian some Sth Americans are more cost effective - but the Indians don't use or import them - or Chinese. What gives Indians the edge is that their staff get 8-10 weeks of training per year, while hardly any American company will pony up for skilling up staff nowadays. New<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.Net - ditch the old, get the new grads and burn them out.</p><p>The reason it looks the same is because half baked 'code generators' are in use, after which people go and hand edit great slabs. At one Telco, Siebel has error messages in Indian - that looked perfect, so they left that in.<br>Global replace on logos and field names, no copylibs needed.</p><p>The claim that Americans are untrainable. Yes, they don't do what they are told, and talk back, much like 35yo + programmers. Meanwhile management sits back and basks in the glory of not training new blood. The not training part comes back to bite them, when 'fire and forget' is used as MQ architecture, and transactions get lost.</p><p>There are studies - Indian outsourcing only saves 5-8 cents per dollar, and that is the best case on things can can be procedurised - ie help desks. The other good - is developing 50,000 'shakedown' scripts in Test Director - even though there is no way they will be executed, they gave the client what they asked for! After the 500th variant, most Americans would blow a fuse. Forget pointless, forget crap - it is money - so do as you are told.</p><p>Now for a 5\% saving, for loss of control and enduring quality, and for unreliability - sooo much better to train local talent.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes Americans should be unemployable - Russian some Sth Americans are more cost effective - but the Indians do n't use or import them - or Chinese .
What gives Indians the edge is that their staff get 8-10 weeks of training per year , while hardly any American company will pony up for skilling up staff nowadays .
New .Net - ditch the old , get the new grads and burn them out.The reason it looks the same is because half baked 'code generators ' are in use , after which people go and hand edit great slabs .
At one Telco , Siebel has error messages in Indian - that looked perfect , so they left that in.Global replace on logos and field names , no copylibs needed.The claim that Americans are untrainable .
Yes , they do n't do what they are told , and talk back , much like 35yo + programmers .
Meanwhile management sits back and basks in the glory of not training new blood .
The not training part comes back to bite them , when 'fire and forget ' is used as MQ architecture , and transactions get lost.There are studies - Indian outsourcing only saves 5-8 cents per dollar , and that is the best case on things can can be procedurised - ie help desks .
The other good - is developing 50,000 'shakedown ' scripts in Test Director - even though there is no way they will be executed , they gave the client what they asked for !
After the 500th variant , most Americans would blow a fuse .
Forget pointless , forget crap - it is money - so do as you are told.Now for a 5 \ % saving , for loss of control and enduring quality , and for unreliability - sooo much better to train local talent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes Americans should be unemployable - Russian some Sth Americans are more cost effective - but the Indians don't use or import them - or Chinese.
What gives Indians the edge is that their staff get 8-10 weeks of training per year, while hardly any American company will pony up for skilling up staff nowadays.
New .Net - ditch the old, get the new grads and burn them out.The reason it looks the same is because half baked 'code generators' are in use, after which people go and hand edit great slabs.
At one Telco, Siebel has error messages in Indian - that looked perfect, so they left that in.Global replace on logos and field names, no copylibs needed.The claim that Americans are untrainable.
Yes, they don't do what they are told, and talk back, much like 35yo + programmers.
Meanwhile management sits back and basks in the glory of not training new blood.
The not training part comes back to bite them, when 'fire and forget' is used as MQ architecture, and transactions get lost.There are studies - Indian outsourcing only saves 5-8 cents per dollar, and that is the best case on things can can be procedurised - ie help desks.
The other good - is developing 50,000 'shakedown' scripts in Test Director - even though there is no way they will be executed, they gave the client what they asked for!
After the 500th variant, most Americans would blow a fuse.
Forget pointless, forget crap - it is money - so do as you are told.Now for a 5\% saving, for loss of control and enduring quality, and for unreliability - sooo much better to train local talent.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418603</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>LS</author>
	<datestamp>1245665280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When it comes to shipping out labor, everyone seems to miss the big picture.</p><p>What is the purpose of a nation?  To benefit and protect the citizens therein (at least that's what is sold to the citizens).  Everyone has to be a member of a nation whether they want to or not, and most nations only allow you to be a citizen of their nation and no other.  So people are effectively trapped within one system.  As of yet there is no such thing as a global citizen.</p><p>So a nation's goal is not to server the world, but to serve its citizens.  If it can serve both the world and its citizens simultaneously, that is great.  But if it has to choose between one or the other, then it must serve its citizens first.</p><p>Originally in the US corporations were limited entities that were only allowed to exist for public benefit and only for a limited duration until their objective was reached.  But that changed over time, and now corporations are some of the most powerful entities in the US.  Corporations in the US benefit from many things, including physical production, access to the US market, subsidies, government contracts, tax breaks, tariffs, and many other benefits from being registered as a US corporation.</p><p>One must remember that a nation and its government is there to serve the betterment of its citizens, and not corporations.  If it benefits a corporation to outsource to another country, but not the citizens, why do it?  The nation has no obligation to benefit the corporation unless it also benefits citizens.  In fact that's why US corporations are given all the advantages they get - in the end it benefits the citizens.</p><p>But once the public is being injured by the current regulations governing international business, it's time to change the laws.  Why benefit a tiny proportion of the US population consisting of high-level execs as well as foreign nationals at the expense of the vast majority of the US population through regulation?</p><p>If a company wants to be "global" and hire foreign workers at the expense of US citizens, I have no problem with that.  But they must lose the benefits of a being a registered US corporation.  They must truly go international, meaning no tax breaks, no subsidies, no being on the advantageous side of tariffs, etc..</p><p>It's really simple.</p><p>LS</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When it comes to shipping out labor , everyone seems to miss the big picture.What is the purpose of a nation ?
To benefit and protect the citizens therein ( at least that 's what is sold to the citizens ) .
Everyone has to be a member of a nation whether they want to or not , and most nations only allow you to be a citizen of their nation and no other .
So people are effectively trapped within one system .
As of yet there is no such thing as a global citizen.So a nation 's goal is not to server the world , but to serve its citizens .
If it can serve both the world and its citizens simultaneously , that is great .
But if it has to choose between one or the other , then it must serve its citizens first.Originally in the US corporations were limited entities that were only allowed to exist for public benefit and only for a limited duration until their objective was reached .
But that changed over time , and now corporations are some of the most powerful entities in the US .
Corporations in the US benefit from many things , including physical production , access to the US market , subsidies , government contracts , tax breaks , tariffs , and many other benefits from being registered as a US corporation.One must remember that a nation and its government is there to serve the betterment of its citizens , and not corporations .
If it benefits a corporation to outsource to another country , but not the citizens , why do it ?
The nation has no obligation to benefit the corporation unless it also benefits citizens .
In fact that 's why US corporations are given all the advantages they get - in the end it benefits the citizens.But once the public is being injured by the current regulations governing international business , it 's time to change the laws .
Why benefit a tiny proportion of the US population consisting of high-level execs as well as foreign nationals at the expense of the vast majority of the US population through regulation ? If a company wants to be " global " and hire foreign workers at the expense of US citizens , I have no problem with that .
But they must lose the benefits of a being a registered US corporation .
They must truly go international , meaning no tax breaks , no subsidies , no being on the advantageous side of tariffs , etc..It 's really simple.LS</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When it comes to shipping out labor, everyone seems to miss the big picture.What is the purpose of a nation?
To benefit and protect the citizens therein (at least that's what is sold to the citizens).
Everyone has to be a member of a nation whether they want to or not, and most nations only allow you to be a citizen of their nation and no other.
So people are effectively trapped within one system.
As of yet there is no such thing as a global citizen.So a nation's goal is not to server the world, but to serve its citizens.
If it can serve both the world and its citizens simultaneously, that is great.
But if it has to choose between one or the other, then it must serve its citizens first.Originally in the US corporations were limited entities that were only allowed to exist for public benefit and only for a limited duration until their objective was reached.
But that changed over time, and now corporations are some of the most powerful entities in the US.
Corporations in the US benefit from many things, including physical production, access to the US market, subsidies, government contracts, tax breaks, tariffs, and many other benefits from being registered as a US corporation.One must remember that a nation and its government is there to serve the betterment of its citizens, and not corporations.
If it benefits a corporation to outsource to another country, but not the citizens, why do it?
The nation has no obligation to benefit the corporation unless it also benefits citizens.
In fact that's why US corporations are given all the advantages they get - in the end it benefits the citizens.But once the public is being injured by the current regulations governing international business, it's time to change the laws.
Why benefit a tiny proportion of the US population consisting of high-level execs as well as foreign nationals at the expense of the vast majority of the US population through regulation?If a company wants to be "global" and hire foreign workers at the expense of US citizens, I have no problem with that.
But they must lose the benefits of a being a registered US corporation.
They must truly go international, meaning no tax breaks, no subsidies, no being on the advantageous side of tariffs, etc..It's really simple.LS</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418385</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245663060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Double plus, by getting modded -1 Anti-crapslashcode (which this may be) anyone that browses at -1 will still be unable to view your post, since -1 is now hidden EVEN IF YOU SET PREFERENCES TO VIEW AT -1.

back on topic, this is typical kdawson 'they're taking out jobs' short-sighted crap.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Double plus , by getting modded -1 Anti-crapslashcode ( which this may be ) anyone that browses at -1 will still be unable to view your post , since -1 is now hidden EVEN IF YOU SET PREFERENCES TO VIEW AT -1 . back on topic , this is typical kdawson 'they 're taking out jobs ' short-sighted crap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Double plus, by getting modded -1 Anti-crapslashcode (which this may be) anyone that browses at -1 will still be unable to view your post, since -1 is now hidden EVEN IF YOU SET PREFERENCES TO VIEW AT -1.

back on topic, this is typical kdawson 'they're taking out jobs' short-sighted crap.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418133</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245703800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>and encourage your friends and family to do the same</p></div></blockquote><p>The thing is, it doesn't work.</p><p>For example, most of us have spoken the evils of DRM media to our friends and acquaintances, sometimes till their eyes glaze over as they think, "oh no not this conversation again."  But does it sink in?  Not ususally.  They'll buy whatever the convenient media of the day.  Then N months/years later, when their device (or the company supplying the service) fails, they discover they've just lost use of the media they had purchased.  But by that time the "I told you so" is too late.</p><p>So to expect a yet higher level of enlightenment that they realize their choices and the social consequences of making them, I'm afraid, is a hopeless proposition.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>and encourage your friends and family to do the sameThe thing is , it does n't work.For example , most of us have spoken the evils of DRM media to our friends and acquaintances , sometimes till their eyes glaze over as they think , " oh no not this conversation again .
" But does it sink in ?
Not ususally .
They 'll buy whatever the convenient media of the day .
Then N months/years later , when their device ( or the company supplying the service ) fails , they discover they 've just lost use of the media they had purchased .
But by that time the " I told you so " is too late.So to expect a yet higher level of enlightenment that they realize their choices and the social consequences of making them , I 'm afraid , is a hopeless proposition .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and encourage your friends and family to do the sameThe thing is, it doesn't work.For example, most of us have spoken the evils of DRM media to our friends and acquaintances, sometimes till their eyes glaze over as they think, "oh no not this conversation again.
"  But does it sink in?
Not ususally.
They'll buy whatever the convenient media of the day.
Then N months/years later, when their device (or the company supplying the service) fails, they discover they've just lost use of the media they had purchased.
But by that time the "I told you so" is too late.So to expect a yet higher level of enlightenment that they realize their choices and the social consequences of making them, I'm afraid, is a hopeless proposition.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28430211</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245669960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>One of the core reasons for the economy downturn is simply that companies tried to manufacture in China and India and sell in the US and Europe.</p> </div><p>The biggest cause of the economic downturn is that the financial markets went to hell in a handbasket and a lot of the economy had been built on top of illusory, unsustainable asset bubbles (principally real estate). The cause of the financial downturn is a lot more nuanced, but a large part of it is, again, that governments tend to be unwilling to pop bubbles (market distortions that inflate share prices are good, but those that deflate them are bad, e.g., short selling).</p><p>Yes, part of the bubble was a result of foreign investment of America's trade deficit back into U.S. assets, but that is as much a result of elevated savings rate in Asia and depressed savings rate in the U.S. as it is about foreign manufacturing.</p><p>But why let facts get in the way of your arguments?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>One of the core reasons for the economy downturn is simply that companies tried to manufacture in China and India and sell in the US and Europe .
The biggest cause of the economic downturn is that the financial markets went to hell in a handbasket and a lot of the economy had been built on top of illusory , unsustainable asset bubbles ( principally real estate ) .
The cause of the financial downturn is a lot more nuanced , but a large part of it is , again , that governments tend to be unwilling to pop bubbles ( market distortions that inflate share prices are good , but those that deflate them are bad , e.g. , short selling ) .Yes , part of the bubble was a result of foreign investment of America 's trade deficit back into U.S. assets , but that is as much a result of elevated savings rate in Asia and depressed savings rate in the U.S. as it is about foreign manufacturing.But why let facts get in the way of your arguments ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One of the core reasons for the economy downturn is simply that companies tried to manufacture in China and India and sell in the US and Europe.
The biggest cause of the economic downturn is that the financial markets went to hell in a handbasket and a lot of the economy had been built on top of illusory, unsustainable asset bubbles (principally real estate).
The cause of the financial downturn is a lot more nuanced, but a large part of it is, again, that governments tend to be unwilling to pop bubbles (market distortions that inflate share prices are good, but those that deflate them are bad, e.g., short selling).Yes, part of the bubble was a result of foreign investment of America's trade deficit back into U.S. assets, but that is as much a result of elevated savings rate in Asia and depressed savings rate in the U.S. as it is about foreign manufacturing.But why let facts get in the way of your arguments?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417817</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420553</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245679920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>couldnt agree more with parent. Add to the evil, Indian software co.s in the last 10 yrs have grabbed acres and acres of land on the cheap, often using cartel and mafia like tactics. Farmers who used to earn a decent subsistence living off their own land, now work as peons and drivers for said co.s. Now the land prices have skyrocketed. India abolished the zamindari (big fat feudal landlord) system decades ago. But now the IT and other co.s are the neo-feudals. And their employees, newly rich compared to their country cousins, swagger around like bratty bullies, with not even a veneer of humaneness.</p><p>My country of birth was a real heaven when I migrated out 20 yrs ago. But now it's just distopia. No thanks to IT outsourcing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>couldnt agree more with parent .
Add to the evil , Indian software co.s in the last 10 yrs have grabbed acres and acres of land on the cheap , often using cartel and mafia like tactics .
Farmers who used to earn a decent subsistence living off their own land , now work as peons and drivers for said co.s .
Now the land prices have skyrocketed .
India abolished the zamindari ( big fat feudal landlord ) system decades ago .
But now the IT and other co.s are the neo-feudals .
And their employees , newly rich compared to their country cousins , swagger around like bratty bullies , with not even a veneer of humaneness.My country of birth was a real heaven when I migrated out 20 yrs ago .
But now it 's just distopia .
No thanks to IT outsourcing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>couldnt agree more with parent.
Add to the evil, Indian software co.s in the last 10 yrs have grabbed acres and acres of land on the cheap, often using cartel and mafia like tactics.
Farmers who used to earn a decent subsistence living off their own land, now work as peons and drivers for said co.s.
Now the land prices have skyrocketed.
India abolished the zamindari (big fat feudal landlord) system decades ago.
But now the IT and other co.s are the neo-feudals.
And their employees, newly rich compared to their country cousins, swagger around like bratty bullies, with not even a veneer of humaneness.My country of birth was a real heaven when I migrated out 20 yrs ago.
But now it's just distopia.
No thanks to IT outsourcing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417683</id>
	<title>India: The skrypt kiddies of programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245613620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense</i>
<br> <br>
Amen. I won't say that all the programmers in India suck, because that would be an inaccurate stereotype. However, I will say that The worst code I have ever seen from American programmers I have worked with was better than the best code that came back from Indian outsourced groups. I suspect that all the GOOD INDIAN PROGRAMMERS CAME TO AMERICA TO MAKE BETTER MONEY.
<br> <br>
Why would you hire the leftovers? Really, you think that you can just get better quality by spending less? Really?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs , short cuts , and shit that does n't make a damn bit of sense Amen .
I wo n't say that all the programmers in India suck , because that would be an inaccurate stereotype .
However , I will say that The worst code I have ever seen from American programmers I have worked with was better than the best code that came back from Indian outsourced groups .
I suspect that all the GOOD INDIAN PROGRAMMERS CAME TO AMERICA TO MAKE BETTER MONEY .
Why would you hire the leftovers ?
Really , you think that you can just get better quality by spending less ?
Really ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense
 
Amen.
I won't say that all the programmers in India suck, because that would be an inaccurate stereotype.
However, I will say that The worst code I have ever seen from American programmers I have worked with was better than the best code that came back from Indian outsourced groups.
I suspect that all the GOOD INDIAN PROGRAMMERS CAME TO AMERICA TO MAKE BETTER MONEY.
Why would you hire the leftovers?
Really, you think that you can just get better quality by spending less?
Really?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420835</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>angularbanjo</author>
	<datestamp>1245681060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Have they outsourced Slashdot development to HCL?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Have they outsourced Slashdot development to HCL ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have they outsourced Slashdot development to HCL?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418587</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418919</id>
	<title>Re:My observations.</title>
	<author>selven</author>
	<datestamp>1245668040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you're the only plumber in town, you can charge $1 less than the cost of not having your house fixed.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 're the only plumber in town , you can charge $ 1 less than the cost of not having your house fixed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you're the only plumber in town, you can charge $1 less than the cost of not having your house fixed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417629</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418325</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>JoeF</author>
	<datestamp>1245662460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If they move to India, the tax revenue also moves to India.<br>Have fun with your country taxing you 50\% and more...<br>Your BS is typical of people who have no clue about anything economics. Get out of your mother's basement for a change and get an education.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If they move to India , the tax revenue also moves to India.Have fun with your country taxing you 50 \ % and more...Your BS is typical of people who have no clue about anything economics .
Get out of your mother 's basement for a change and get an education .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If they move to India, the tax revenue also moves to India.Have fun with your country taxing you 50\% and more...Your BS is typical of people who have no clue about anything economics.
Get out of your mother's basement for a change and get an education.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417415</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425043</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Skuld-Chan</author>
	<datestamp>1245695400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The masses have spoken - as long as they have money to spend on such items - as people get laid off because of their jobs moving overseas I doubt this trend will continue. Plus I really don't think we are saving all that much on prices in stores.</p><p>And its not all black and white either - I bought a Swiss army knife the other day - says its made in Switzerland for $12 - sitting next to a very cheap Chinese knockoff for $9 - which I'm willing to bet cost 10 cents to make. The prices here haven't come down, just profits have gone up for the people marketing this stuff which means more profit.</p><p>Picked up a maglite flashlight - says its made in the USA for $14 - sitting next to a cheap Chinese one for $5. On one hand you can use the maglite to beat people with, hammer nails into the wall with and will still function as a flashlight, on the other hand the Chinese one is probably good for this years camping season before the switch breaks.</p><p>Plus prices around the world are different. So I'd be willing to work for $1200 a month (60,000 rupees - which is what the Indian's who replaced me make apparently), but prices need to be adjusted in the USA first - like they are in India.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The masses have spoken - as long as they have money to spend on such items - as people get laid off because of their jobs moving overseas I doubt this trend will continue .
Plus I really do n't think we are saving all that much on prices in stores.And its not all black and white either - I bought a Swiss army knife the other day - says its made in Switzerland for $ 12 - sitting next to a very cheap Chinese knockoff for $ 9 - which I 'm willing to bet cost 10 cents to make .
The prices here have n't come down , just profits have gone up for the people marketing this stuff which means more profit.Picked up a maglite flashlight - says its made in the USA for $ 14 - sitting next to a cheap Chinese one for $ 5 .
On one hand you can use the maglite to beat people with , hammer nails into the wall with and will still function as a flashlight , on the other hand the Chinese one is probably good for this years camping season before the switch breaks.Plus prices around the world are different .
So I 'd be willing to work for $ 1200 a month ( 60,000 rupees - which is what the Indian 's who replaced me make apparently ) , but prices need to be adjusted in the USA first - like they are in India .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The masses have spoken - as long as they have money to spend on such items - as people get laid off because of their jobs moving overseas I doubt this trend will continue.
Plus I really don't think we are saving all that much on prices in stores.And its not all black and white either - I bought a Swiss army knife the other day - says its made in Switzerland for $12 - sitting next to a very cheap Chinese knockoff for $9 - which I'm willing to bet cost 10 cents to make.
The prices here haven't come down, just profits have gone up for the people marketing this stuff which means more profit.Picked up a maglite flashlight - says its made in the USA for $14 - sitting next to a cheap Chinese one for $5.
On one hand you can use the maglite to beat people with, hammer nails into the wall with and will still function as a flashlight, on the other hand the Chinese one is probably good for this years camping season before the switch breaks.Plus prices around the world are different.
So I'd be willing to work for $1200 a month (60,000 rupees - which is what the Indian's who replaced me make apparently), but prices need to be adjusted in the USA first - like they are in India.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417611</id>
	<title>Thus spoke the Professional Bullshitter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245613020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I will most likely be called a racist (and I guess I did become a little racist after this experience), so I am posting as a coward. So, I got my Masters in CS at a top-30 US University. I am European and most of my fellow students were Indian &amp; Chinese. The Americans were few. In my experience, the worst students were Indians. Now, I am not saying all or most of the Indians were bad, and I am not even saying that those that I consider the "worst students" were stupid or even less competent than some other low-performance students. But if a European, a Chinese, an American was bad (although the few Americans we had were all pretty good), you could TELL. The Indians seemed to be professional bullshitters, you could not tell the good ones from the total bs ones. They could fool their professors easily, they could even fool some recruiters...<br>I remember I was at a job fair hiring for a technical position. I got about 10 CV's from Indians that day, and all of them were the same. Yes, the names were different, the layouts were different, the places and even universities were different. However they all had apparently won 1st place on the X (indian village? you've never heard of) math olympiad, they all elaborated on some sort of major project they had undertaken to revamp X airline's ticketing system (which I could tell was the weekly homework in our transaction processing class), and of course all were scoring 99\% on their undergrad Indian university. What should I do, call all of them for a follow up interview to figure out who's just BSing and who's not?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I will most likely be called a racist ( and I guess I did become a little racist after this experience ) , so I am posting as a coward .
So , I got my Masters in CS at a top-30 US University .
I am European and most of my fellow students were Indian &amp; Chinese .
The Americans were few .
In my experience , the worst students were Indians .
Now , I am not saying all or most of the Indians were bad , and I am not even saying that those that I consider the " worst students " were stupid or even less competent than some other low-performance students .
But if a European , a Chinese , an American was bad ( although the few Americans we had were all pretty good ) , you could TELL .
The Indians seemed to be professional bullshitters , you could not tell the good ones from the total bs ones .
They could fool their professors easily , they could even fool some recruiters...I remember I was at a job fair hiring for a technical position .
I got about 10 CV 's from Indians that day , and all of them were the same .
Yes , the names were different , the layouts were different , the places and even universities were different .
However they all had apparently won 1st place on the X ( indian village ?
you 've never heard of ) math olympiad , they all elaborated on some sort of major project they had undertaken to revamp X airline 's ticketing system ( which I could tell was the weekly homework in our transaction processing class ) , and of course all were scoring 99 \ % on their undergrad Indian university .
What should I do , call all of them for a follow up interview to figure out who 's just BSing and who 's not ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I will most likely be called a racist (and I guess I did become a little racist after this experience), so I am posting as a coward.
So, I got my Masters in CS at a top-30 US University.
I am European and most of my fellow students were Indian &amp; Chinese.
The Americans were few.
In my experience, the worst students were Indians.
Now, I am not saying all or most of the Indians were bad, and I am not even saying that those that I consider the "worst students" were stupid or even less competent than some other low-performance students.
But if a European, a Chinese, an American was bad (although the few Americans we had were all pretty good), you could TELL.
The Indians seemed to be professional bullshitters, you could not tell the good ones from the total bs ones.
They could fool their professors easily, they could even fool some recruiters...I remember I was at a job fair hiring for a technical position.
I got about 10 CV's from Indians that day, and all of them were the same.
Yes, the names were different, the layouts were different, the places and even universities were different.
However they all had apparently won 1st place on the X (indian village?
you've never heard of) math olympiad, they all elaborated on some sort of major project they had undertaken to revamp X airline's ticketing system (which I could tell was the weekly homework in our transaction processing class), and of course all were scoring 99\% on their undergrad Indian university.
What should I do, call all of them for a follow up interview to figure out who's just BSing and who's not?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28423569</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Jackie\_Chan\_Fan</author>
	<datestamp>1245690180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Whether you agree with the outcome or not, foreign labor has helped to reduce the price of many of the goods and services that westerners rely on every day.</i></p><p>Really? I dont see it that way at all. What prices are actually cheaper?</p><p>Nike sneakers are still $90-$150 and they're still made for<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.45 cents an hour in China</p><p>LCD TV still cost as much and more than an old American made Zenith tv.</p><p>The fact is... everything is cheaper to make overseas, but its still sold back to us at American prices.</p><p>The only one getting the break is the corporation selling the item because their cost has lowered. They're not passing on the savings to the buyer.</p><p>To contrast that... If they were making the products in America, you can be sure that the corporations would pass on the COST of manufacturing in the US to the buyer.</p><p>A $400 dell computer is hardly a computer i want to own. Its not going to be good. Its going to be cheap.</p><p>Computers are a special case because they typically lower in value due to newer technology. Thats to be expected and great. It has little to do with manufacturing overseas, but more to do with the next big thing.</p><p>I'm not against manufacturing things overseas, but when we make EVERYTHING overseas we have a serious problem. That is the problem we're in now.</p><p>There is nothing wrong with American workers. The businesses just see an easier profit with overseas manufacturing and lets face it... business doesnt ever give a fuck about you.</p><p>Sadly that has also become the American way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Whether you agree with the outcome or not , foreign labor has helped to reduce the price of many of the goods and services that westerners rely on every day.Really ?
I dont see it that way at all .
What prices are actually cheaper ? Nike sneakers are still $ 90- $ 150 and they 're still made for .45 cents an hour in ChinaLCD TV still cost as much and more than an old American made Zenith tv.The fact is... everything is cheaper to make overseas , but its still sold back to us at American prices.The only one getting the break is the corporation selling the item because their cost has lowered .
They 're not passing on the savings to the buyer.To contrast that... If they were making the products in America , you can be sure that the corporations would pass on the COST of manufacturing in the US to the buyer.A $ 400 dell computer is hardly a computer i want to own .
Its not going to be good .
Its going to be cheap.Computers are a special case because they typically lower in value due to newer technology .
Thats to be expected and great .
It has little to do with manufacturing overseas , but more to do with the next big thing.I 'm not against manufacturing things overseas , but when we make EVERYTHING overseas we have a serious problem .
That is the problem we 're in now.There is nothing wrong with American workers .
The businesses just see an easier profit with overseas manufacturing and lets face it... business doesnt ever give a fuck about you.Sadly that has also become the American way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Whether you agree with the outcome or not, foreign labor has helped to reduce the price of many of the goods and services that westerners rely on every day.Really?
I dont see it that way at all.
What prices are actually cheaper?Nike sneakers are still $90-$150 and they're still made for .45 cents an hour in ChinaLCD TV still cost as much and more than an old American made Zenith tv.The fact is... everything is cheaper to make overseas, but its still sold back to us at American prices.The only one getting the break is the corporation selling the item because their cost has lowered.
They're not passing on the savings to the buyer.To contrast that... If they were making the products in America, you can be sure that the corporations would pass on the COST of manufacturing in the US to the buyer.A $400 dell computer is hardly a computer i want to own.
Its not going to be good.
Its going to be cheap.Computers are a special case because they typically lower in value due to newer technology.
Thats to be expected and great.
It has little to do with manufacturing overseas, but more to do with the next big thing.I'm not against manufacturing things overseas, but when we make EVERYTHING overseas we have a serious problem.
That is the problem we're in now.There is nothing wrong with American workers.
The businesses just see an easier profit with overseas manufacturing and lets face it... business doesnt ever give a fuck about you.Sadly that has also become the American way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28439279</id>
	<title>Ohh yea, Mr Nayar!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245773580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just another anonymous coward who doesn't want to sign up in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/..</p><p>They surely are unemployable by HCL! . Considering the kind of contracts that HCL takes up no American grad is gonna stay. HCL has loads of highly skilled \_drones\_ sitting on bench and recently the salary of all the benched were cut by 25\%. Still they make the profit despite paying these people for just having coffee or browsing the net.Just imagine!</p><p>Just check any firm which hire H1bs and you will find a pattern , they have loads of legacy code written by - who?- The American coders who have retired with their fat paychecks or IPOs.<br>So crap code is not the sole hallmark of any particular ethnicity.Any bad professional with no commitment  to the work being done can do that. Crap code -&gt; maintenance costs . Do you wanna give $$ to an American grad to do some copy-paste when the Indian can do it for significantly less $. Plain economics. Well this has been reiterated many times over and over again  the internet forums i know.</p><p>Instead of posting on Slashdot against h1bs or giving examples of how bad the h1bs code (everybody knows that!) , better try to put pressure on the hiring manager of your comp who is making your life hell. I am not sure why comps trust these Indian Body shops this much , why  cant they hire with a proper interview?. I can tell whether an engineer is crap or not in 5 minutes or less. So it is just blatant lazyness, shortsightedness and corruption in the part of American comps that has caused all this mess.  Iam sure that such employee requests can make a much more effect in an American workculture. So just do it. I am sure  that things will change. Just expose them!!! . You need not get a brain f**k due to the dumb and greedy company policies. There is no space for mediocrity in America - The land of opportunity. And . I hope that USA is a democracy where the Vox populi will be heard. More over you will be doing a BIG favour to the technology industry in India. I am concerned when i work on core tech in india and some cheapskate flies to US using a bodyshopper and finally increase the cost of living and real estate price here beyond what i can afford.</p><p>-- \_just\_another\_indian\_technologist\_</p><p>Ps:Slashdot isn't a place to give the message to the h1b drones,  they  might be cooly checking scraps in  \_some social networking site\_ sitting in the high rise American office misusing the American bandwidth.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just another anonymous coward who does n't want to sign up in /..They surely are unemployable by HCL !
. Considering the kind of contracts that HCL takes up no American grad is gon na stay .
HCL has loads of highly skilled \ _drones \ _ sitting on bench and recently the salary of all the benched were cut by 25 \ % .
Still they make the profit despite paying these people for just having coffee or browsing the net.Just imagine ! Just check any firm which hire H1bs and you will find a pattern , they have loads of legacy code written by - who ? - The American coders who have retired with their fat paychecks or IPOs.So crap code is not the sole hallmark of any particular ethnicity.Any bad professional with no commitment to the work being done can do that .
Crap code - &gt; maintenance costs .
Do you wan na give $ $ to an American grad to do some copy-paste when the Indian can do it for significantly less $ .
Plain economics .
Well this has been reiterated many times over and over again the internet forums i know.Instead of posting on Slashdot against h1bs or giving examples of how bad the h1bs code ( everybody knows that !
) , better try to put pressure on the hiring manager of your comp who is making your life hell .
I am not sure why comps trust these Indian Body shops this much , why cant they hire with a proper interview ? .
I can tell whether an engineer is crap or not in 5 minutes or less .
So it is just blatant lazyness , shortsightedness and corruption in the part of American comps that has caused all this mess .
Iam sure that such employee requests can make a much more effect in an American workculture .
So just do it .
I am sure that things will change .
Just expose them ! ! !
. You need not get a brain f * * k due to the dumb and greedy company policies .
There is no space for mediocrity in America - The land of opportunity .
And .
I hope that USA is a democracy where the Vox populi will be heard .
More over you will be doing a BIG favour to the technology industry in India .
I am concerned when i work on core tech in india and some cheapskate flies to US using a bodyshopper and finally increase the cost of living and real estate price here beyond what i can afford.-- \ _just \ _another \ _indian \ _technologist \ _Ps : Slashdot is n't a place to give the message to the h1b drones , they might be cooly checking scraps in \ _some social networking site \ _ sitting in the high rise American office misusing the American bandwidth .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just another anonymous coward who doesn't want to sign up in /..They surely are unemployable by HCL!
. Considering the kind of contracts that HCL takes up no American grad is gonna stay.
HCL has loads of highly skilled \_drones\_ sitting on bench and recently the salary of all the benched were cut by 25\%.
Still they make the profit despite paying these people for just having coffee or browsing the net.Just imagine!Just check any firm which hire H1bs and you will find a pattern , they have loads of legacy code written by - who?- The American coders who have retired with their fat paychecks or IPOs.So crap code is not the sole hallmark of any particular ethnicity.Any bad professional with no commitment  to the work being done can do that.
Crap code -&gt; maintenance costs .
Do you wanna give $$ to an American grad to do some copy-paste when the Indian can do it for significantly less $.
Plain economics.
Well this has been reiterated many times over and over again  the internet forums i know.Instead of posting on Slashdot against h1bs or giving examples of how bad the h1bs code (everybody knows that!
) , better try to put pressure on the hiring manager of your comp who is making your life hell.
I am not sure why comps trust these Indian Body shops this much , why  cant they hire with a proper interview?.
I can tell whether an engineer is crap or not in 5 minutes or less.
So it is just blatant lazyness, shortsightedness and corruption in the part of American comps that has caused all this mess.
Iam sure that such employee requests can make a much more effect in an American workculture.
So just do it.
I am sure  that things will change.
Just expose them!!!
. You need not get a brain f**k due to the dumb and greedy company policies.
There is no space for mediocrity in America - The land of opportunity.
And .
I hope that USA is a democracy where the Vox populi will be heard.
More over you will be doing a BIG favour to the technology industry in India.
I am concerned when i work on core tech in india and some cheapskate flies to US using a bodyshopper and finally increase the cost of living and real estate price here beyond what i can afford.-- \_just\_another\_indian\_technologist\_Ps:Slashdot isn't a place to give the message to the h1b drones,  they  might be cooly checking scraps in  \_some social networking site\_ sitting in the high rise American office misusing the American bandwidth.
:)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28434073</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>jawahar</author>
	<datestamp>1245687600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Innovation and smart working is discouraged, and the training given is "how to bill maximum hours" and "how to fool the client into believing you are working".</p></div></blockquote><p>
This is also applicable to H1B workers in America.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Innovation and smart working is discouraged , and the training given is " how to bill maximum hours " and " how to fool the client into believing you are working " .
This is also applicable to H1B workers in America .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Innovation and smart working is discouraged, and the training given is "how to bill maximum hours" and "how to fool the client into believing you are working".
This is also applicable to H1B workers in America.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425375</id>
	<title>Indias - inferior / Europeans Superior</title>
	<author>gabrieltss</author>
	<datestamp>1245696420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Having done hiring I have found that 90\% of the Indians I have hired were inferior. Many if not most LIED on their resumes, they had been coached on how to answer interview questions specific to the technoligies they were interviewing for. When you throw a real world situation at them and ask them how they would solve it - they freeze up and get that "deer in the headlights" look. When you hire ones that make it taht far - you find out many times what they -really- know - jack squat! Things they claim they knew on their resume and were able to answer "coached" answeres they can't really do. I had one that actually would go out "lift" code from open source projects - remove the copyrights and drop it into our code and put his name to it. He was quickly ESCORTED from the building when this was finally discoverd and we had to go back through -all- code with his name on it and remove it - because we weren't gaurenteed it wasn't "lifted" code.</p><p>Europeans I have found are superior when it comes to technology related matters - especially programming. Of all the Europeans hired only one or two didn't work out. Unfortunately I have found Europeans better than most American programmers. Usually when I hire university grads I have them mentored by the European programmers. I tell the grad - "take most of what you learned in class and dump it. You'll learn real world now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Having done hiring I have found that 90 \ % of the Indians I have hired were inferior .
Many if not most LIED on their resumes , they had been coached on how to answer interview questions specific to the technoligies they were interviewing for .
When you throw a real world situation at them and ask them how they would solve it - they freeze up and get that " deer in the headlights " look .
When you hire ones that make it taht far - you find out many times what they -really- know - jack squat !
Things they claim they knew on their resume and were able to answer " coached " answeres they ca n't really do .
I had one that actually would go out " lift " code from open source projects - remove the copyrights and drop it into our code and put his name to it .
He was quickly ESCORTED from the building when this was finally discoverd and we had to go back through -all- code with his name on it and remove it - because we were n't gaurenteed it was n't " lifted " code.Europeans I have found are superior when it comes to technology related matters - especially programming .
Of all the Europeans hired only one or two did n't work out .
Unfortunately I have found Europeans better than most American programmers .
Usually when I hire university grads I have them mentored by the European programmers .
I tell the grad - " take most of what you learned in class and dump it .
You 'll learn real world now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having done hiring I have found that 90\% of the Indians I have hired were inferior.
Many if not most LIED on their resumes, they had been coached on how to answer interview questions specific to the technoligies they were interviewing for.
When you throw a real world situation at them and ask them how they would solve it - they freeze up and get that "deer in the headlights" look.
When you hire ones that make it taht far - you find out many times what they -really- know - jack squat!
Things they claim they knew on their resume and were able to answer "coached" answeres they can't really do.
I had one that actually would go out "lift" code from open source projects - remove the copyrights and drop it into our code and put his name to it.
He was quickly ESCORTED from the building when this was finally discoverd and we had to go back through -all- code with his name on it and remove it - because we weren't gaurenteed it wasn't "lifted" code.Europeans I have found are superior when it comes to technology related matters - especially programming.
Of all the Europeans hired only one or two didn't work out.
Unfortunately I have found Europeans better than most American programmers.
Usually when I hire university grads I have them mentored by the European programmers.
I tell the grad - "take most of what you learned in class and dump it.
You'll learn real world now.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421957</id>
	<title>Filtering</title>
	<author>phorm</author>
	<datestamp>1245684960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Or is it that the bottom line is so so so f*****g important that those companies don't even want to spend even little money and time on implementing a shortlisting criteria when they outsource work ?</i> </p><p>Amen to that. For all those that complain about hiring outsourced labour, I've seen plenty of shit-workers produced right here in my own country (in this case, Canada). So perhaps another issue is that by outsourcing the work, you've just given up the ability to filter, monitor, and/or control it in most ways. We had *tons* of local applicants claiming all sorts of great background, experience, and skills. One of the more promising ones never showed up for his first workday (apparently he found better work elsewhere and decided not to tell until until day two), others were often a mix of home-tinkerers and people those who only looked good on paper. We also had a few "foreign" applicants who from what we could tell were quite skilled in the technical arena, but unfortunately lacked the communications/language skills needed to work in the team. It wasn't the best-paying job, and it definitely had grind-times, but in comparing it was likely better than a lot of what was out there as most jobs I was seeing were about the same but often only 2-6 month temp stints.</p><p>So maybe it's a sense of "crap here, crap there", but locally you can better filter out the crap to get somebody good, while remotely the crap workers are at least cheaper.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or is it that the bottom line is so so so f * * * * * g important that those companies do n't even want to spend even little money and time on implementing a shortlisting criteria when they outsource work ?
Amen to that .
For all those that complain about hiring outsourced labour , I 've seen plenty of shit-workers produced right here in my own country ( in this case , Canada ) .
So perhaps another issue is that by outsourcing the work , you 've just given up the ability to filter , monitor , and/or control it in most ways .
We had * tons * of local applicants claiming all sorts of great background , experience , and skills .
One of the more promising ones never showed up for his first workday ( apparently he found better work elsewhere and decided not to tell until until day two ) , others were often a mix of home-tinkerers and people those who only looked good on paper .
We also had a few " foreign " applicants who from what we could tell were quite skilled in the technical arena , but unfortunately lacked the communications/language skills needed to work in the team .
It was n't the best-paying job , and it definitely had grind-times , but in comparing it was likely better than a lot of what was out there as most jobs I was seeing were about the same but often only 2-6 month temp stints.So maybe it 's a sense of " crap here , crap there " , but locally you can better filter out the crap to get somebody good , while remotely the crap workers are at least cheaper .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or is it that the bottom line is so so so f*****g important that those companies don't even want to spend even little money and time on implementing a shortlisting criteria when they outsource work ?
Amen to that.
For all those that complain about hiring outsourced labour, I've seen plenty of shit-workers produced right here in my own country (in this case, Canada).
So perhaps another issue is that by outsourcing the work, you've just given up the ability to filter, monitor, and/or control it in most ways.
We had *tons* of local applicants claiming all sorts of great background, experience, and skills.
One of the more promising ones never showed up for his first workday (apparently he found better work elsewhere and decided not to tell until until day two), others were often a mix of home-tinkerers and people those who only looked good on paper.
We also had a few "foreign" applicants who from what we could tell were quite skilled in the technical arena, but unfortunately lacked the communications/language skills needed to work in the team.
It wasn't the best-paying job, and it definitely had grind-times, but in comparing it was likely better than a lot of what was out there as most jobs I was seeing were about the same but often only 2-6 month temp stints.So maybe it's a sense of "crap here, crap there", but locally you can better filter out the crap to get somebody good, while remotely the crap workers are at least cheaper.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417919</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420039</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245676920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, nationality does affect code quality. It's no so much the nationality itself, but the general values, upbringing and education one gets in such a society.</p><p>The problem with Indian society and education, for instance, is their emphasis on marks and grades. Going to school there, it's not about whether you learn the material or understand the material. It's all about getting "perfect" on the test or exam.</p><p>When I was in college in the States studying Comp Sci in the mid 1990s, we had a number of students from India in our classes. Before each test, they'd ask the professors what was on it. During the tests, they'd ask the professors question after question after question. After the test, when they didn't get the marks they'd hoped for (usually 99\% or 100\%, literally), they'd complain to the teaching assistants and professors until the marks were changed. The rest of us, mostly American, just did our best. If we got a 75\% when we expected an 85\%, we learned from our mistakes and lived with it.</p><p>When it came to assignments and course projects, most of the Indians were useless. While they could regurgitate information at will, they didn't have the ability to Get Stuff Done. Mostly, this was because they were unwilling to try something, especially if it might fail. After all, their emphasis on "perfection" resulted in any sort of failure, even that which was learned from, as being acceptable.</p><p>One funny thing is that the biggest critic of these Indians was a fellow of Indian descent, although he was born and raised in LA. He hated the reputation they gave Indians as a whole. He hated having to talk to professors, because many expected he was just there to bitch and moan about petty marks, like the other Indians.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , nationality does affect code quality .
It 's no so much the nationality itself , but the general values , upbringing and education one gets in such a society.The problem with Indian society and education , for instance , is their emphasis on marks and grades .
Going to school there , it 's not about whether you learn the material or understand the material .
It 's all about getting " perfect " on the test or exam.When I was in college in the States studying Comp Sci in the mid 1990s , we had a number of students from India in our classes .
Before each test , they 'd ask the professors what was on it .
During the tests , they 'd ask the professors question after question after question .
After the test , when they did n't get the marks they 'd hoped for ( usually 99 \ % or 100 \ % , literally ) , they 'd complain to the teaching assistants and professors until the marks were changed .
The rest of us , mostly American , just did our best .
If we got a 75 \ % when we expected an 85 \ % , we learned from our mistakes and lived with it.When it came to assignments and course projects , most of the Indians were useless .
While they could regurgitate information at will , they did n't have the ability to Get Stuff Done .
Mostly , this was because they were unwilling to try something , especially if it might fail .
After all , their emphasis on " perfection " resulted in any sort of failure , even that which was learned from , as being acceptable.One funny thing is that the biggest critic of these Indians was a fellow of Indian descent , although he was born and raised in LA .
He hated the reputation they gave Indians as a whole .
He hated having to talk to professors , because many expected he was just there to bitch and moan about petty marks , like the other Indians .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, nationality does affect code quality.
It's no so much the nationality itself, but the general values, upbringing and education one gets in such a society.The problem with Indian society and education, for instance, is their emphasis on marks and grades.
Going to school there, it's not about whether you learn the material or understand the material.
It's all about getting "perfect" on the test or exam.When I was in college in the States studying Comp Sci in the mid 1990s, we had a number of students from India in our classes.
Before each test, they'd ask the professors what was on it.
During the tests, they'd ask the professors question after question after question.
After the test, when they didn't get the marks they'd hoped for (usually 99\% or 100\%, literally), they'd complain to the teaching assistants and professors until the marks were changed.
The rest of us, mostly American, just did our best.
If we got a 75\% when we expected an 85\%, we learned from our mistakes and lived with it.When it came to assignments and course projects, most of the Indians were useless.
While they could regurgitate information at will, they didn't have the ability to Get Stuff Done.
Mostly, this was because they were unwilling to try something, especially if it might fail.
After all, their emphasis on "perfection" resulted in any sort of failure, even that which was learned from, as being acceptable.One funny thing is that the biggest critic of these Indians was a fellow of Indian descent, although he was born and raised in LA.
He hated the reputation they gave Indians as a whole.
He hated having to talk to professors, because many expected he was just there to bitch and moan about petty marks, like the other Indians.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417687</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418575</id>
	<title>surprise</title>
	<author>Kvasio</author>
	<datestamp>1245664980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Never thought that windows could be any worse, but with more "bangalore code" new possibilities are open.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Never thought that windows could be any worse , but with more " bangalore code " new possibilities are open .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Never thought that windows could be any worse, but with more "bangalore code" new possibilities are open.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</id>
	<title>If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245611700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>If Americans are unemployable then why are they the ones paying the Indians to do the job?

The money is coming from somewhere, and to make others do the work for you takes some brains.

What this guy doesn't answer is why is it that when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that's stateside?</htmltext>
<tokenext>If Americans are unemployable then why are they the ones paying the Indians to do the job ?
The money is coming from somewhere , and to make others do the work for you takes some brains .
What this guy does n't answer is why is it that when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs , short cuts , and shit that does n't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that 's stateside ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If Americans are unemployable then why are they the ones paying the Indians to do the job?
The money is coming from somewhere, and to make others do the work for you takes some brains.
What this guy doesn't answer is why is it that when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that's stateside?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28427237</id>
	<title>Resolution vs...</title>
	<author>yoshi\_mon</author>
	<datestamp>1245703020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Some time ago I worked at Convergys and was able to observe a lot of interesting trends.  They did what they could to import cheap H1B people for sure.  But the most interesting thing was not just limited to H1Bers.  Rather the idea that ticket resolution was so unimportant for so many companies.</p><p>Some companies did not even have resolution as a metric for evaluations.  If the by the book steps did not fix a customer, oh well!  Refer them to someone else like the OEM and have a nice day!</p><p>With that in mind someone who is willing to read from a script and make next to nothing is perfect for them.  Not that we Americans are excused from this.  Some companies do better than others at trying to make sure their phone reps can actually think but I'd still be willing to say the majority of them go into panic mode if the script does not work.</p><p>And on top of that you can get some real winners gaming the system then.  There was one guy who, while I was auditing an ISPs calls, had a 2m turnover on his calls.  I'm not shitting you all, 2m from the time he picked up to when he would be ready for the next customer on average.  This was back when DUN would frequently break in 95/98 and need to be reinstalled.  So whenever it became clear that needed to be done he would punt the caller with some excuse.  Leaving it for the next tech to do so that his numbers would still look 'good'.</p><p>Steering back on topic I think the metric for 'employable' when you are talking about tech grads to the CEO in question scores pay and willingness to be browbeaten highly.  Stay on script!  Keep you call time down!  No breaks!  Go figure US grads, even accounting for our overinflated sense of entitlement, might not score highly when looking though his lens.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some time ago I worked at Convergys and was able to observe a lot of interesting trends .
They did what they could to import cheap H1B people for sure .
But the most interesting thing was not just limited to H1Bers .
Rather the idea that ticket resolution was so unimportant for so many companies.Some companies did not even have resolution as a metric for evaluations .
If the by the book steps did not fix a customer , oh well !
Refer them to someone else like the OEM and have a nice day ! With that in mind someone who is willing to read from a script and make next to nothing is perfect for them .
Not that we Americans are excused from this .
Some companies do better than others at trying to make sure their phone reps can actually think but I 'd still be willing to say the majority of them go into panic mode if the script does not work.And on top of that you can get some real winners gaming the system then .
There was one guy who , while I was auditing an ISPs calls , had a 2m turnover on his calls .
I 'm not shitting you all , 2m from the time he picked up to when he would be ready for the next customer on average .
This was back when DUN would frequently break in 95/98 and need to be reinstalled .
So whenever it became clear that needed to be done he would punt the caller with some excuse .
Leaving it for the next tech to do so that his numbers would still look 'good'.Steering back on topic I think the metric for 'employable ' when you are talking about tech grads to the CEO in question scores pay and willingness to be browbeaten highly .
Stay on script !
Keep you call time down !
No breaks !
Go figure US grads , even accounting for our overinflated sense of entitlement , might not score highly when looking though his lens .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some time ago I worked at Convergys and was able to observe a lot of interesting trends.
They did what they could to import cheap H1B people for sure.
But the most interesting thing was not just limited to H1Bers.
Rather the idea that ticket resolution was so unimportant for so many companies.Some companies did not even have resolution as a metric for evaluations.
If the by the book steps did not fix a customer, oh well!
Refer them to someone else like the OEM and have a nice day!With that in mind someone who is willing to read from a script and make next to nothing is perfect for them.
Not that we Americans are excused from this.
Some companies do better than others at trying to make sure their phone reps can actually think but I'd still be willing to say the majority of them go into panic mode if the script does not work.And on top of that you can get some real winners gaming the system then.
There was one guy who, while I was auditing an ISPs calls, had a 2m turnover on his calls.
I'm not shitting you all, 2m from the time he picked up to when he would be ready for the next customer on average.
This was back when DUN would frequently break in 95/98 and need to be reinstalled.
So whenever it became clear that needed to be done he would punt the caller with some excuse.
Leaving it for the next tech to do so that his numbers would still look 'good'.Steering back on topic I think the metric for 'employable' when you are talking about tech grads to the CEO in question scores pay and willingness to be browbeaten highly.
Stay on script!
Keep you call time down!
No breaks!
Go figure US grads, even accounting for our overinflated sense of entitlement, might not score highly when looking though his lens.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421455</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>MikeRT</author>
	<datestamp>1245683280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>trust a story about outsourcing to get the racist bastards to come crawling about the woodwork.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>

It shows how biased Slashdot is that your comment was modded as Insightful. Racist implies racial hatred, not prejudiced. If you are one of those people who cannot grok the difference between prejudice and hatred, or who engages in linguist chicanery by saying that they are functionally indistinguishable, then I cannot help you.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>trust a story about outsourcing to get the racist bastards to come crawling about the woodwork .
It shows how biased Slashdot is that your comment was modded as Insightful .
Racist implies racial hatred , not prejudiced .
If you are one of those people who can not grok the difference between prejudice and hatred , or who engages in linguist chicanery by saying that they are functionally indistinguishable , then I can not help you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>trust a story about outsourcing to get the racist bastards to come crawling about the woodwork.
It shows how biased Slashdot is that your comment was modded as Insightful.
Racist implies racial hatred, not prejudiced.
If you are one of those people who cannot grok the difference between prejudice and hatred, or who engages in linguist chicanery by saying that they are functionally indistinguishable, then I cannot help you.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418847</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419991</id>
	<title>What he really said</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245676680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bud bud buddbud bud I am haveing one doubt bud bud bud.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bud bud buddbud bud I am haveing one doubt bud bud bud .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bud bud buddbud bud I am haveing one doubt bud bud bud.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420331</id>
	<title>THANKS!</title>
	<author>courteaudotbiz</author>
	<datestamp>1245678780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That's the best advice I've had today!</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's the best advice I 've had today !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's the best advice I've had today!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418485</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418115</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>englishknnigits</author>
	<datestamp>1245703740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I mostly agree but one problem is that the government PREVENTS us from being competitive.  How you ask?  With environmental and labor regulations that other countries do not have to abide by.  I'm not saying the companies have no influence on how competitive they are but it is pretty much impossible to compete with a company that can hire 14 year olds to work in sweat shops for practically nothing.  I'm also not saying those regulations are bad, just saying you can't have free trade and an imbalance in environmental and labor regulations and expect there to be fair competition.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I mostly agree but one problem is that the government PREVENTS us from being competitive .
How you ask ?
With environmental and labor regulations that other countries do not have to abide by .
I 'm not saying the companies have no influence on how competitive they are but it is pretty much impossible to compete with a company that can hire 14 year olds to work in sweat shops for practically nothing .
I 'm also not saying those regulations are bad , just saying you ca n't have free trade and an imbalance in environmental and labor regulations and expect there to be fair competition .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I mostly agree but one problem is that the government PREVENTS us from being competitive.
How you ask?
With environmental and labor regulations that other countries do not have to abide by.
I'm not saying the companies have no influence on how competitive they are but it is pretty much impossible to compete with a company that can hire 14 year olds to work in sweat shops for practically nothing.
I'm also not saying those regulations are bad, just saying you can't have free trade and an imbalance in environmental and labor regulations and expect there to be fair competition.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28432615</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>laddiebuck</author>
	<datestamp>1245679560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You're an idiot. GP was talking about nations/societies, not races.<br> <br>
I have little experience of Chinese colleagues, just one data point who's decent, but I would lay higher odds on a European coder I don't know being a good coder than people from any other region. Especially Eastern Europeans, but my impression is not limited to them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're an idiot .
GP was talking about nations/societies , not races .
I have little experience of Chinese colleagues , just one data point who 's decent , but I would lay higher odds on a European coder I do n't know being a good coder than people from any other region .
Especially Eastern Europeans , but my impression is not limited to them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're an idiot.
GP was talking about nations/societies, not races.
I have little experience of Chinese colleagues, just one data point who's decent, but I would lay higher odds on a European coder I don't know being a good coder than people from any other region.
Especially Eastern Europeans, but my impression is not limited to them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418847</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420719</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245680580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Spot on.  Geographic price discrimination promotes the offshoring of jobs.  There's a lot of talk right now about how other countries are more "efficient" at delivering health care.  We forget part of the reason they pay less is because companies actually charge them less for the same products.  Some developed countries have wised up to this and refuse to pay more than a median (geographic) price when negotiating drug prices.</p><p>Now, to the extent that geographic price discrimination increases profits, I can't complain.  However, in an international business context, there are no guarantees that profits produce US jobs.  The reality is that if it is substantially cheaper for a company to move labor offshore, they will.  Then they will turn around and sell the result of that labor back to the US at high prices.  By charging some regions dramatically lower prices, companies promote the movement of jobs to those regions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Spot on .
Geographic price discrimination promotes the offshoring of jobs .
There 's a lot of talk right now about how other countries are more " efficient " at delivering health care .
We forget part of the reason they pay less is because companies actually charge them less for the same products .
Some developed countries have wised up to this and refuse to pay more than a median ( geographic ) price when negotiating drug prices.Now , to the extent that geographic price discrimination increases profits , I ca n't complain .
However , in an international business context , there are no guarantees that profits produce US jobs .
The reality is that if it is substantially cheaper for a company to move labor offshore , they will .
Then they will turn around and sell the result of that labor back to the US at high prices .
By charging some regions dramatically lower prices , companies promote the movement of jobs to those regions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Spot on.
Geographic price discrimination promotes the offshoring of jobs.
There's a lot of talk right now about how other countries are more "efficient" at delivering health care.
We forget part of the reason they pay less is because companies actually charge them less for the same products.
Some developed countries have wised up to this and refuse to pay more than a median (geographic) price when negotiating drug prices.Now, to the extent that geographic price discrimination increases profits, I can't complain.
However, in an international business context, there are no guarantees that profits produce US jobs.
The reality is that if it is substantially cheaper for a company to move labor offshore, they will.
Then they will turn around and sell the result of that labor back to the US at high prices.
By charging some regions dramatically lower prices, companies promote the movement of jobs to those regions.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418011</id>
	<title>I imagine India is somewhat similar to Brazil</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245702960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm seeing a lot of comments regarding the (low) quality of outsourced code.</p><p>I think what people in US companies fail to understand is that, instead of aiming to cut down their development costs to US$5/hour, they should try to using outsourcing as a tool to hire *good* developers. You can get a top notch developer which would cost US$100+/hour in the US for about US$25-35/hour in Brazil.</p><p>This whole "outsourced code is crap" debate happens not because Indians (or Brazilians) have an intrinsic inability to code. This happens because outsourcing companies such as Accenture go to these countries and then hire the cheapest developers who can write something that passes as "working code". They can hire such developers here with a US$1000 monthly wage and the shitty developers will be happy with it!</p><p>But the good developers don't work for these companies.</p><p>As an advice, if you're ever considering outsourcing to Brazil, never do that to any company with more than 50-80 developers. Ideal would be around 15-30 developers - this is the sweet spot from my personal experience. As a side bonus, these companies are actually cheaper and pay their employees better. These "famous" service companies charge ridiculous amounts of money from their clients - I guess all the money goes to their senior executives bonuses.</p><p>The main reason why there are proportionally more crappy developers in developing countries is because there is much higher demand for crappy developers in those countries. So we have hundreds of cheapo colleges springing up on every corner offering IT-related courses.</p><p>This is all supported by these large service companies which regularly come up with nonsense such as stating they're recruiting future IT-workers in English classes because, according to them, it's easier to teach Java in 3 months than to learn English. And since they're so eager to hire, that's their only option.</p><p>Of course, this is a lie: there's plenty of *qualified* developers. Despite stating they're actively hiring, they're actually firing people right now. And then replacing some of them with people willing to work for a lower salary. So this is what you get from outsourcing to these large companies.</p><p>So keep these things in mind. These companies play the same tricks everywhere. In the US, they might want more foreign visas and colleges with courses matching their needs. Here in Brazil, they also play these same tricks regarding universities and try to push the government to allow for more than 8 hours a day without overtime (or even illegally coerce their employees into working unpaid overtime). I can bet they also do something nasty in India.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm seeing a lot of comments regarding the ( low ) quality of outsourced code.I think what people in US companies fail to understand is that , instead of aiming to cut down their development costs to US $ 5/hour , they should try to using outsourcing as a tool to hire * good * developers .
You can get a top notch developer which would cost US $ 100 + /hour in the US for about US $ 25-35/hour in Brazil.This whole " outsourced code is crap " debate happens not because Indians ( or Brazilians ) have an intrinsic inability to code .
This happens because outsourcing companies such as Accenture go to these countries and then hire the cheapest developers who can write something that passes as " working code " .
They can hire such developers here with a US $ 1000 monthly wage and the shitty developers will be happy with it ! But the good developers do n't work for these companies.As an advice , if you 're ever considering outsourcing to Brazil , never do that to any company with more than 50-80 developers .
Ideal would be around 15-30 developers - this is the sweet spot from my personal experience .
As a side bonus , these companies are actually cheaper and pay their employees better .
These " famous " service companies charge ridiculous amounts of money from their clients - I guess all the money goes to their senior executives bonuses.The main reason why there are proportionally more crappy developers in developing countries is because there is much higher demand for crappy developers in those countries .
So we have hundreds of cheapo colleges springing up on every corner offering IT-related courses.This is all supported by these large service companies which regularly come up with nonsense such as stating they 're recruiting future IT-workers in English classes because , according to them , it 's easier to teach Java in 3 months than to learn English .
And since they 're so eager to hire , that 's their only option.Of course , this is a lie : there 's plenty of * qualified * developers .
Despite stating they 're actively hiring , they 're actually firing people right now .
And then replacing some of them with people willing to work for a lower salary .
So this is what you get from outsourcing to these large companies.So keep these things in mind .
These companies play the same tricks everywhere .
In the US , they might want more foreign visas and colleges with courses matching their needs .
Here in Brazil , they also play these same tricks regarding universities and try to push the government to allow for more than 8 hours a day without overtime ( or even illegally coerce their employees into working unpaid overtime ) .
I can bet they also do something nasty in India .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm seeing a lot of comments regarding the (low) quality of outsourced code.I think what people in US companies fail to understand is that, instead of aiming to cut down their development costs to US$5/hour, they should try to using outsourcing as a tool to hire *good* developers.
You can get a top notch developer which would cost US$100+/hour in the US for about US$25-35/hour in Brazil.This whole "outsourced code is crap" debate happens not because Indians (or Brazilians) have an intrinsic inability to code.
This happens because outsourcing companies such as Accenture go to these countries and then hire the cheapest developers who can write something that passes as "working code".
They can hire such developers here with a US$1000 monthly wage and the shitty developers will be happy with it!But the good developers don't work for these companies.As an advice, if you're ever considering outsourcing to Brazil, never do that to any company with more than 50-80 developers.
Ideal would be around 15-30 developers - this is the sweet spot from my personal experience.
As a side bonus, these companies are actually cheaper and pay their employees better.
These "famous" service companies charge ridiculous amounts of money from their clients - I guess all the money goes to their senior executives bonuses.The main reason why there are proportionally more crappy developers in developing countries is because there is much higher demand for crappy developers in those countries.
So we have hundreds of cheapo colleges springing up on every corner offering IT-related courses.This is all supported by these large service companies which regularly come up with nonsense such as stating they're recruiting future IT-workers in English classes because, according to them, it's easier to teach Java in 3 months than to learn English.
And since they're so eager to hire, that's their only option.Of course, this is a lie: there's plenty of *qualified* developers.
Despite stating they're actively hiring, they're actually firing people right now.
And then replacing some of them with people willing to work for a lower salary.
So this is what you get from outsourcing to these large companies.So keep these things in mind.
These companies play the same tricks everywhere.
In the US, they might want more foreign visas and colleges with courses matching their needs.
Here in Brazil, they also play these same tricks regarding universities and try to push the government to allow for more than 8 hours a day without overtime (or even illegally coerce their employees into working unpaid overtime).
I can bet they also do something nasty in India.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</id>
	<title>HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245612060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I know there is going to be a lot of flak directed at HCL.<br>But unfortunately HCL is not the only monkey around.<br>I live in India, and have a lot of friends working in such companies (Infosys, Wipro, HCL, TCS etc., etc.,)<br>These service companies have lot of PR support due to feeding poor kids meals blah blah (you get the philantrophy angle, right?)</p><p>However beneath the facade lurks pure evil.<br>Firstly these are service companies. they bill clients by the hour. Which then brings us to their processes and employees.<br>Innovation and smart working is discouraged, and the training given is  "how to bill maximum hours" and "how to fool the client into believing you are working".</p><p>So these drones are taught how not to work smartly, how not to do more with less time. you get tonnes of reports tones of meaningless slides to fool the clients, who are anyways willing to get fooled.</p><p>But kid yourself not, same is the case with US based service companies also, but with service companies a smaller percentage in US(except in Law area), things don't seem obvious.<br>But Indian IT has become a service economy with drones. Drones who are dumb "copy paste" coders.<br>I am in a product company, and often we get software engineers with 10 years of "coding" experience who do not know how to use regular expressions. Infact in their job, they would do a manual search and replace, because they can bill more hours to client.</p><p>Such practices actually make hiring intelligent engineers bad, They want drones.<br>Till few years back, when product companies were unheard of in India, many people migrated off-shore. Nowadays the drain has stemmed, but with lots of money coming in, even good engineers are flocking to this circus, and the whole place is a mess.</p><p>Now why do Amercian comanies like to get screwed? Well the managers there can justify their paychecks more readily if tonnes of drone like reports and jargon filled meaningless data is thrown around in board meetings.</p><p>your PHBs love these drones. They work for 14 hours a day at half the cost. OTOH, an intelligent enginner will work for 4 hours finish the work, and charge double. How will they boast that they have a cheap engineer working for 14 hours a day?</p><p>Now Microsoft loves these companies very much. Because they promote windows, and in their advertisements, boast about better performance and all that BS. The public here trusts these guys. Wow CEO used to clean his own toilet. Woweee!</p><p>They go to these fund raisers, do hoop haa about poor kids, give a few hundred dollars to a charity, and they are the ambassadors of good will.</p><p>The dark side is brushed under the carpet.<br>Whats not told is that number of hours each employee spends at his/her desk is counted. Every time you go in your wing, your clock starts ticking.<br>Every time you go out, clock stops.</p><p>Companies like Accenture India division make employees sign on bonds that they are willing to work 12 hours a day. Its all a circus, and the American PHBs love their circus animals.<br>Who suffers. Grads in the US, and engineers like us who have so limited options in India. Moreover our reputation suffers. We are clubbed "Indian engineers are not intelligent".</p><p>On the plus side product companies are growing, but on the downside most of these have these drones who cannot unlearn what the service industry taught them?<br>Ever wonder why India does not have companies like Intel, Lenovo, Huawai emerging, but only subsidiaries and service drones?<br>Well I just gave you your answer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I know there is going to be a lot of flak directed at HCL.But unfortunately HCL is not the only monkey around.I live in India , and have a lot of friends working in such companies ( Infosys , Wipro , HCL , TCS etc. , etc. , ) These service companies have lot of PR support due to feeding poor kids meals blah blah ( you get the philantrophy angle , right ?
) However beneath the facade lurks pure evil.Firstly these are service companies .
they bill clients by the hour .
Which then brings us to their processes and employees.Innovation and smart working is discouraged , and the training given is " how to bill maximum hours " and " how to fool the client into believing you are working " .So these drones are taught how not to work smartly , how not to do more with less time .
you get tonnes of reports tones of meaningless slides to fool the clients , who are anyways willing to get fooled.But kid yourself not , same is the case with US based service companies also , but with service companies a smaller percentage in US ( except in Law area ) , things do n't seem obvious.But Indian IT has become a service economy with drones .
Drones who are dumb " copy paste " coders.I am in a product company , and often we get software engineers with 10 years of " coding " experience who do not know how to use regular expressions .
Infact in their job , they would do a manual search and replace , because they can bill more hours to client.Such practices actually make hiring intelligent engineers bad , They want drones.Till few years back , when product companies were unheard of in India , many people migrated off-shore .
Nowadays the drain has stemmed , but with lots of money coming in , even good engineers are flocking to this circus , and the whole place is a mess.Now why do Amercian comanies like to get screwed ?
Well the managers there can justify their paychecks more readily if tonnes of drone like reports and jargon filled meaningless data is thrown around in board meetings.your PHBs love these drones .
They work for 14 hours a day at half the cost .
OTOH , an intelligent enginner will work for 4 hours finish the work , and charge double .
How will they boast that they have a cheap engineer working for 14 hours a day ? Now Microsoft loves these companies very much .
Because they promote windows , and in their advertisements , boast about better performance and all that BS .
The public here trusts these guys .
Wow CEO used to clean his own toilet .
Woweee ! They go to these fund raisers , do hoop haa about poor kids , give a few hundred dollars to a charity , and they are the ambassadors of good will.The dark side is brushed under the carpet.Whats not told is that number of hours each employee spends at his/her desk is counted .
Every time you go in your wing , your clock starts ticking.Every time you go out , clock stops.Companies like Accenture India division make employees sign on bonds that they are willing to work 12 hours a day .
Its all a circus , and the American PHBs love their circus animals.Who suffers .
Grads in the US , and engineers like us who have so limited options in India .
Moreover our reputation suffers .
We are clubbed " Indian engineers are not intelligent " .On the plus side product companies are growing , but on the downside most of these have these drones who can not unlearn what the service industry taught them ? Ever wonder why India does not have companies like Intel , Lenovo , Huawai emerging , but only subsidiaries and service drones ? Well I just gave you your answer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know there is going to be a lot of flak directed at HCL.But unfortunately HCL is not the only monkey around.I live in India, and have a lot of friends working in such companies (Infosys, Wipro, HCL, TCS etc., etc.,)These service companies have lot of PR support due to feeding poor kids meals blah blah (you get the philantrophy angle, right?
)However beneath the facade lurks pure evil.Firstly these are service companies.
they bill clients by the hour.
Which then brings us to their processes and employees.Innovation and smart working is discouraged, and the training given is  "how to bill maximum hours" and "how to fool the client into believing you are working".So these drones are taught how not to work smartly, how not to do more with less time.
you get tonnes of reports tones of meaningless slides to fool the clients, who are anyways willing to get fooled.But kid yourself not, same is the case with US based service companies also, but with service companies a smaller percentage in US(except in Law area), things don't seem obvious.But Indian IT has become a service economy with drones.
Drones who are dumb "copy paste" coders.I am in a product company, and often we get software engineers with 10 years of "coding" experience who do not know how to use regular expressions.
Infact in their job, they would do a manual search and replace, because they can bill more hours to client.Such practices actually make hiring intelligent engineers bad, They want drones.Till few years back, when product companies were unheard of in India, many people migrated off-shore.
Nowadays the drain has stemmed, but with lots of money coming in, even good engineers are flocking to this circus, and the whole place is a mess.Now why do Amercian comanies like to get screwed?
Well the managers there can justify their paychecks more readily if tonnes of drone like reports and jargon filled meaningless data is thrown around in board meetings.your PHBs love these drones.
They work for 14 hours a day at half the cost.
OTOH, an intelligent enginner will work for 4 hours finish the work, and charge double.
How will they boast that they have a cheap engineer working for 14 hours a day?Now Microsoft loves these companies very much.
Because they promote windows, and in their advertisements, boast about better performance and all that BS.
The public here trusts these guys.
Wow CEO used to clean his own toilet.
Woweee!They go to these fund raisers, do hoop haa about poor kids, give a few hundred dollars to a charity, and they are the ambassadors of good will.The dark side is brushed under the carpet.Whats not told is that number of hours each employee spends at his/her desk is counted.
Every time you go in your wing, your clock starts ticking.Every time you go out, clock stops.Companies like Accenture India division make employees sign on bonds that they are willing to work 12 hours a day.
Its all a circus, and the American PHBs love their circus animals.Who suffers.
Grads in the US, and engineers like us who have so limited options in India.
Moreover our reputation suffers.
We are clubbed "Indian engineers are not intelligent".On the plus side product companies are growing, but on the downside most of these have these drones who cannot unlearn what the service industry taught them?Ever wonder why India does not have companies like Intel, Lenovo, Huawai emerging, but only subsidiaries and service drones?Well I just gave you your answer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417749</id>
	<title>Re:Here we go again</title>
	<author>resonantblue</author>
	<datestamp>1245613980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"The common threat is<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... China"</p><p>So much for not painting things as "black and white."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" The common threat is ... China " So much for not painting things as " black and white .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"The common threat is ... China"So much for not painting things as "black and white.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417555</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</id>
	<title>I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245613860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Supposedly, the Indians coming to the States are the smartest. I find them to be no better than American educated and trained workers. IIT is not a breeding ground for great talent, rather superior attitudes. No different than the Ivy League in the United States. I have worked with plenty of Indian talent in Silicon Valley, and managed many as well. It depends on the person; where you go to school, or if you go to school, is irrelevant.</p><p>The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Supposedly , the Indians coming to the States are the smartest .
I find them to be no better than American educated and trained workers .
IIT is not a breeding ground for great talent , rather superior attitudes .
No different than the Ivy League in the United States .
I have worked with plenty of Indian talent in Silicon Valley , and managed many as well .
It depends on the person ; where you go to school , or if you go to school , is irrelevant.The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Supposedly, the Indians coming to the States are the smartest.
I find them to be no better than American educated and trained workers.
IIT is not a breeding ground for great talent, rather superior attitudes.
No different than the Ivy League in the United States.
I have worked with plenty of Indian talent in Silicon Valley, and managed many as well.
It depends on the person; where you go to school, or if you go to school, is irrelevant.The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417653</id>
	<title>Pay peanuts</title>
	<author>syousef</author>
	<datestamp>1245613380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...get code monkeys.</p><p>I wonder what he earnt this year? I would say that a rich overpaid CEO complaining that people won't accept a sub-standard wage are the epitome of hypocrisy and greed. I'm surprised he's not whining that good slaves are hard to find.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...get code monkeys.I wonder what he earnt this year ?
I would say that a rich overpaid CEO complaining that people wo n't accept a sub-standard wage are the epitome of hypocrisy and greed .
I 'm surprised he 's not whining that good slaves are hard to find .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...get code monkeys.I wonder what he earnt this year?
I would say that a rich overpaid CEO complaining that people won't accept a sub-standard wage are the epitome of hypocrisy and greed.
I'm surprised he's not whining that good slaves are hard to find.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28423585</id>
	<title>OMG I can haz standard of living</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245690240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Newsflash third world, it's EXPENSIVE to live in the first world, especially given that we have the added burden of covertly and overtly funding the third world.</p><p>Then again if you're a rich, even in first world terms, third worlder little things like cost of living have no meaning.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Newsflash third world , it 's EXPENSIVE to live in the first world , especially given that we have the added burden of covertly and overtly funding the third world.Then again if you 're a rich , even in first world terms , third worlder little things like cost of living have no meaning .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Newsflash third world, it's EXPENSIVE to live in the first world, especially given that we have the added burden of covertly and overtly funding the third world.Then again if you're a rich, even in first world terms, third worlder little things like cost of living have no meaning.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422487</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>T Murphy</author>
	<datestamp>1245686580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You deserve a +5 troll.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You deserve a + 5 troll .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You deserve a +5 troll.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28433943</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245686940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If you don't like outsourced IT for any reason--"I don't like China's stance on Tibet" is as good a reason as "I find their accent makes resolving a problem over the telephone difficult"--then don't buy from companies that use it.  You'll probably have to pay more for it, but nobody said having principles and sticking to them wouldn't require some sacrifices.  Chances are good you'll find it's not as expensive as you think and a lot of times you'll end up with a better product/service because of it.</p></div><p>You're right, I don't like outsourced IT and I won't buy from companies that use it. Not because I don't want to but because I can't afford to. You see, I am a developer like many other Slashdotters. I'm also a British national living in Latin America. I have tried to advertise my services across the net and locally but due to companies in the capital city I live in being obsessed with outsourcing to India I'm struggling to pull in USD$450 a month and feed my family.</p><p>So what do I do? Apparently, according to you just don't buy from any of the companies here outsourcing. That doesn't exactly help bring in the dollars does it? I have to earn a living like anybody else, I don't mind some competition, it keeps things flowing but Indian outsourcing companies have saturated the market here. Nobody will touch a local programmer whether native or foreign, college graduate or coding veteran because they can get the same job done for $6 an hour in India and pay with their credit card on Paypal.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you do n't like outsourced IT for any reason-- " I do n't like China 's stance on Tibet " is as good a reason as " I find their accent makes resolving a problem over the telephone difficult " --then do n't buy from companies that use it .
You 'll probably have to pay more for it , but nobody said having principles and sticking to them would n't require some sacrifices .
Chances are good you 'll find it 's not as expensive as you think and a lot of times you 'll end up with a better product/service because of it.You 're right , I do n't like outsourced IT and I wo n't buy from companies that use it .
Not because I do n't want to but because I ca n't afford to .
You see , I am a developer like many other Slashdotters .
I 'm also a British national living in Latin America .
I have tried to advertise my services across the net and locally but due to companies in the capital city I live in being obsessed with outsourcing to India I 'm struggling to pull in USD $ 450 a month and feed my family.So what do I do ?
Apparently , according to you just do n't buy from any of the companies here outsourcing .
That does n't exactly help bring in the dollars does it ?
I have to earn a living like anybody else , I do n't mind some competition , it keeps things flowing but Indian outsourcing companies have saturated the market here .
Nobody will touch a local programmer whether native or foreign , college graduate or coding veteran because they can get the same job done for $ 6 an hour in India and pay with their credit card on Paypal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you don't like outsourced IT for any reason--"I don't like China's stance on Tibet" is as good a reason as "I find their accent makes resolving a problem over the telephone difficult"--then don't buy from companies that use it.
You'll probably have to pay more for it, but nobody said having principles and sticking to them wouldn't require some sacrifices.
Chances are good you'll find it's not as expensive as you think and a lot of times you'll end up with a better product/service because of it.You're right, I don't like outsourced IT and I won't buy from companies that use it.
Not because I don't want to but because I can't afford to.
You see, I am a developer like many other Slashdotters.
I'm also a British national living in Latin America.
I have tried to advertise my services across the net and locally but due to companies in the capital city I live in being obsessed with outsourcing to India I'm struggling to pull in USD$450 a month and feed my family.So what do I do?
Apparently, according to you just don't buy from any of the companies here outsourcing.
That doesn't exactly help bring in the dollars does it?
I have to earn a living like anybody else, I don't mind some competition, it keeps things flowing but Indian outsourcing companies have saturated the market here.
Nobody will touch a local programmer whether native or foreign, college graduate or coding veteran because they can get the same job done for $6 an hour in India and pay with their credit card on Paypal.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417535</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417707</id>
	<title>Contradiction from the Right</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245613800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The biz lobbyists first claimed that not enough US citizens were going into the field. Now it's that we are "too lazy for the details", not quantity? Which is it? Outsourcing and H1B's were never sold as a way to replace "C" Americans with "A" 3rd-worlders. <b>Did they lie to Congress and voters?</b></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The biz lobbyists first claimed that not enough US citizens were going into the field .
Now it 's that we are " too lazy for the details " , not quantity ?
Which is it ?
Outsourcing and H1B 's were never sold as a way to replace " C " Americans with " A " 3rd-worlders .
Did they lie to Congress and voters ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The biz lobbyists first claimed that not enough US citizens were going into the field.
Now it's that we are "too lazy for the details", not quantity?
Which is it?
Outsourcing and H1B's were never sold as a way to replace "C" Americans with "A" 3rd-worlders.
Did they lie to Congress and voters?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417415</id>
	<title>Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245611340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I recall talking to Congressman Brian Baird about this problem of US businesses over-utilizing immigrants.  He had the standard reply, "But they tell me if they don't get the visas, they'll have to outsource business to India!"  My reply wasn't standard:  "They shouldn't just outsource to India, they should MOVE to India!  <a href="http://www.vdare.com/letters/tl\_081108.htm" title="vdare.com" rel="nofollow">The US created these industries without massive immigration</a> [vdare.com].  The problem with the US isn't a lack of immigrants."</htmltext>
<tokenext>I recall talking to Congressman Brian Baird about this problem of US businesses over-utilizing immigrants .
He had the standard reply , " But they tell me if they do n't get the visas , they 'll have to outsource business to India !
" My reply was n't standard : " They should n't just outsource to India , they should MOVE to India !
The US created these industries without massive immigration [ vdare.com ] .
The problem with the US is n't a lack of immigrants .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I recall talking to Congressman Brian Baird about this problem of US businesses over-utilizing immigrants.
He had the standard reply, "But they tell me if they don't get the visas, they'll have to outsource business to India!
"  My reply wasn't standard:  "They shouldn't just outsource to India, they should MOVE to India!
The US created these industries without massive immigration [vdare.com].
The problem with the US isn't a lack of immigrants.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417687</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245613620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that's stateside?</p></div><p>Umm.. because it's written by programmers?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>Seriously, this is standard no matter what the nationality.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs , short cuts , and shit that does n't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that 's stateside ? Umm.. because it 's written by programmers ?
: ) Seriously , this is standard no matter what the nationality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that's stateside?Umm.. because it's written by programmers?
:)Seriously, this is standard no matter what the nationality.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417557</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245612540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're probably dealing with Indians that would be considered "unemployable" by this guy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're probably dealing with Indians that would be considered " unemployable " by this guy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're probably dealing with Indians that would be considered "unemployable" by this guy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418217</id>
	<title>I've worked at a company that HCL was 'there' for</title>
	<author>K3ba</author>
	<datestamp>1245661500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>American Grads may indeed be unemployable - I've never worked in the USA though, so I cannot say for sure either way.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)<br>
<br>
But I have worked with HCL in the UK. The standard working week for an Indian HCL employee is easily 90 hours if you don't count weekends. There is usually a ratio of around 3 HCL employees to replace each UK employee they make redundant.  By my weak math skills, I would guess that HCL (at a savings) replaces 1 UK employee with the equivalent of 7 HCL employees on an effort basis.<br>
<br>
It would be wonderful of course if those ~7 staff gave ~7x benefit. Sadly in my experience their total sum gives less than half the quality of the 1 UK employee.  Mistakes are made, decisions are wrapped up in red tape, and chaos ensues.  Put an HCL employee in a situation where there isn't a blow-by-blow script on how to do the job, and they flounder.  Badly.<br>
<br>
HCL may help save money on the accountants books, but they put the company at risk if the company is stupid enough to outsource without first having everything in order.  Sadly the main companies that do outsource are those that don't have a clue how their business is run, and expect HCL employees to be able to think outside of the box, and to be able to use their vast experience in the companies assets to achieve minor miracles on a daily basis.  Finding an HCL employee that can think, let alone think outside of the box would be a major miracle...<br>
<br>
At least I know which companies shares not to invest in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)<br>
<br>
Please note the above is in my experience only and could possibly be unique and not a unilateral standard.  I've met some very nice people who work at HCL - I just wish their 'niceness' translated directly into 'quality output'.  It's also possible that HCL do actually give quality to some clients (maybe they put their best on the highest payers  *shrug*). <strong>Anything</strong> is possible.<br>
<br>
It's also worth noting that I've never been made redundant due to HCL coming in to a company - indeed, I've actually got more work at a company due to them being there. For each external UK person like myself who benefited, there were at least 10 UK people that were made redundant though, and that's a ratio that I dislike moreso than a lack of quality.</htmltext>
<tokenext>American Grads may indeed be unemployable - I 've never worked in the USA though , so I can not say for sure either way .
; ) But I have worked with HCL in the UK .
The standard working week for an Indian HCL employee is easily 90 hours if you do n't count weekends .
There is usually a ratio of around 3 HCL employees to replace each UK employee they make redundant .
By my weak math skills , I would guess that HCL ( at a savings ) replaces 1 UK employee with the equivalent of 7 HCL employees on an effort basis .
It would be wonderful of course if those ~ 7 staff gave ~ 7x benefit .
Sadly in my experience their total sum gives less than half the quality of the 1 UK employee .
Mistakes are made , decisions are wrapped up in red tape , and chaos ensues .
Put an HCL employee in a situation where there is n't a blow-by-blow script on how to do the job , and they flounder .
Badly . HCL may help save money on the accountants books , but they put the company at risk if the company is stupid enough to outsource without first having everything in order .
Sadly the main companies that do outsource are those that do n't have a clue how their business is run , and expect HCL employees to be able to think outside of the box , and to be able to use their vast experience in the companies assets to achieve minor miracles on a daily basis .
Finding an HCL employee that can think , let alone think outside of the box would be a major miracle.. . At least I know which companies shares not to invest in ; ) Please note the above is in my experience only and could possibly be unique and not a unilateral standard .
I 've met some very nice people who work at HCL - I just wish their 'niceness ' translated directly into 'quality output' .
It 's also possible that HCL do actually give quality to some clients ( maybe they put their best on the highest payers * shrug * ) .
Anything is possible .
It 's also worth noting that I 've never been made redundant due to HCL coming in to a company - indeed , I 've actually got more work at a company due to them being there .
For each external UK person like myself who benefited , there were at least 10 UK people that were made redundant though , and that 's a ratio that I dislike moreso than a lack of quality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>American Grads may indeed be unemployable - I've never worked in the USA though, so I cannot say for sure either way.
;)

But I have worked with HCL in the UK.
The standard working week for an Indian HCL employee is easily 90 hours if you don't count weekends.
There is usually a ratio of around 3 HCL employees to replace each UK employee they make redundant.
By my weak math skills, I would guess that HCL (at a savings) replaces 1 UK employee with the equivalent of 7 HCL employees on an effort basis.
It would be wonderful of course if those ~7 staff gave ~7x benefit.
Sadly in my experience their total sum gives less than half the quality of the 1 UK employee.
Mistakes are made, decisions are wrapped up in red tape, and chaos ensues.
Put an HCL employee in a situation where there isn't a blow-by-blow script on how to do the job, and they flounder.
Badly.

HCL may help save money on the accountants books, but they put the company at risk if the company is stupid enough to outsource without first having everything in order.
Sadly the main companies that do outsource are those that don't have a clue how their business is run, and expect HCL employees to be able to think outside of the box, and to be able to use their vast experience in the companies assets to achieve minor miracles on a daily basis.
Finding an HCL employee that can think, let alone think outside of the box would be a major miracle...

At least I know which companies shares not to invest in ;)

Please note the above is in my experience only and could possibly be unique and not a unilateral standard.
I've met some very nice people who work at HCL - I just wish their 'niceness' translated directly into 'quality output'.
It's also possible that HCL do actually give quality to some clients (maybe they put their best on the highest payers  *shrug*).
Anything is possible.
It's also worth noting that I've never been made redundant due to HCL coming in to a company - indeed, I've actually got more work at a company due to them being there.
For each external UK person like myself who benefited, there were at least 10 UK people that were made redundant though, and that's a ratio that I dislike moreso than a lack of quality.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419281</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Kjella</author>
	<datestamp>1245670920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is that they want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to source globally and produce wherever it's cheapest. They don't want us to source globally and buy wherever it's cheapest. They want your wages to be competitive with foreigners. They don't want their prices to compete with products sold abroad. It's not a two-way street.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is that they want to have their cake and eat it too .
They want to source globally and produce wherever it 's cheapest .
They do n't want us to source globally and buy wherever it 's cheapest .
They want your wages to be competitive with foreigners .
They do n't want their prices to compete with products sold abroad .
It 's not a two-way street .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is that they want to have their cake and eat it too.
They want to source globally and produce wherever it's cheapest.
They don't want us to source globally and buy wherever it's cheapest.
They want your wages to be competitive with foreigners.
They don't want their prices to compete with products sold abroad.
It's not a two-way street.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418367</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28423413</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245689760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your post is amusing, but your anachronisms infuriate me!</p><p>A 486DX2/66 printing on a daisy wheel printer?!?</p><p>Maybe an IBM 5100, or a 5150, but not a 486, dammit!</p><p>Kids these days.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your post is amusing , but your anachronisms infuriate me ! A 486DX2/66 printing on a daisy wheel printer ? !
? Maybe an IBM 5100 , or a 5150 , but not a 486 , dammit ! Kids these days .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your post is amusing, but your anachronisms infuriate me!A 486DX2/66 printing on a daisy wheel printer?!
?Maybe an IBM 5100, or a 5150, but not a 486, dammit!Kids these days.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419487</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417645</id>
	<title>Unemployable?</title>
	<author>Xenkar</author>
	<datestamp>1245613260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Perhaps Mr. Nayar should stop beating around the bush and just state the reasons why he thinks Americans are unemployable:<br>Americans enjoy running water.<br>Americans don't want to live in a small mud hut with their whole extended family.<br>Americans don't want to work 80 hours a week on slave wages with no overtime.<br>Americans have a higher cost of living in regards to just about everything.<br>Americans usually need cars to function in American society.<br>Americans want to have 72"+ LED backlit LCD TVs.<br>Managers don't get bonuses for hiring Americans.</p><p>I personally think that every job should have a wage that a person can live off of, "unskilled" or "skilled". If you want to see something funny, hand a CEO a floor buffer and watch him fumble about with it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Perhaps Mr. Nayar should stop beating around the bush and just state the reasons why he thinks Americans are unemployable : Americans enjoy running water.Americans do n't want to live in a small mud hut with their whole extended family.Americans do n't want to work 80 hours a week on slave wages with no overtime.Americans have a higher cost of living in regards to just about everything.Americans usually need cars to function in American society.Americans want to have 72 " + LED backlit LCD TVs.Managers do n't get bonuses for hiring Americans.I personally think that every job should have a wage that a person can live off of , " unskilled " or " skilled " .
If you want to see something funny , hand a CEO a floor buffer and watch him fumble about with it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perhaps Mr. Nayar should stop beating around the bush and just state the reasons why he thinks Americans are unemployable:Americans enjoy running water.Americans don't want to live in a small mud hut with their whole extended family.Americans don't want to work 80 hours a week on slave wages with no overtime.Americans have a higher cost of living in regards to just about everything.Americans usually need cars to function in American society.Americans want to have 72"+ LED backlit LCD TVs.Managers don't get bonuses for hiring Americans.I personally think that every job should have a wage that a person can live off of, "unskilled" or "skilled".
If you want to see something funny, hand a CEO a floor buffer and watch him fumble about with it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418047</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245703140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I know what you mean. Recently I was hired as a consultant to analyze a web application that was outsourced to India. After ripping it apart, and listing nearly 2 pages of problems (primarily rudimentary security issues) I became very aware of their lack of basic programming logic and understanding. I'm not saying that Indians as a whole are inept, in fact I met many who were very capable programmers in college, but by and large the code I've seen outsourced to India is awful.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I know what you mean .
Recently I was hired as a consultant to analyze a web application that was outsourced to India .
After ripping it apart , and listing nearly 2 pages of problems ( primarily rudimentary security issues ) I became very aware of their lack of basic programming logic and understanding .
I 'm not saying that Indians as a whole are inept , in fact I met many who were very capable programmers in college , but by and large the code I 've seen outsourced to India is awful .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know what you mean.
Recently I was hired as a consultant to analyze a web application that was outsourced to India.
After ripping it apart, and listing nearly 2 pages of problems (primarily rudimentary security issues) I became very aware of their lack of basic programming logic and understanding.
I'm not saying that Indians as a whole are inept, in fact I met many who were very capable programmers in college, but by and large the code I've seen outsourced to India is awful.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418739</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245666360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Would you like to express those prices in \% of personal income? I think it might be a little bit closer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Would you like to express those prices in \ % of personal income ?
I think it might be a little bit closer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Would you like to express those prices in \% of personal income?
I think it might be a little bit closer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28426099</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>Yhippa</author>
	<datestamp>1245699120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This post was epic.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This post was epic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This post was epic.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425815</id>
	<title>If not employable there, employ them here</title>
	<author>HermMunster</author>
	<datestamp>1245698040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sounds naive, but it is the truth.</p><p>1) Limit or eliminate the ability give out the visas.</p><p>2) Severely tax companies participating in off-shore hiring or corporate shareholder wealth building.</p><p>3) Eliminate all tax relief for any company participating with these companies that off-shore.</p><p>Make those countries overseas build their own technology and their own industries.  We don't need to increase the wealth of their countries any more than they did for us.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sounds naive , but it is the truth.1 ) Limit or eliminate the ability give out the visas.2 ) Severely tax companies participating in off-shore hiring or corporate shareholder wealth building.3 ) Eliminate all tax relief for any company participating with these companies that off-shore.Make those countries overseas build their own technology and their own industries .
We do n't need to increase the wealth of their countries any more than they did for us .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sounds naive, but it is the truth.1) Limit or eliminate the ability give out the visas.2) Severely tax companies participating in off-shore hiring or corporate shareholder wealth building.3) Eliminate all tax relief for any company participating with these companies that off-shore.Make those countries overseas build their own technology and their own industries.
We don't need to increase the wealth of their countries any more than they did for us.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417829</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>codekavi</author>
	<datestamp>1245701220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>mod parent up</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>mod parent up</tokentext>
<sentencetext>mod parent up</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28429811</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245668340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"So far in the last 12 months I've had three side projects that projects that were outsourced"</p><p>Huh? If you code as well as you write you're not much better off then the people you are complaining about.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" So far in the last 12 months I 've had three side projects that projects that were outsourced " Huh ?
If you code as well as you write you 're not much better off then the people you are complaining about .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"So far in the last 12 months I've had three side projects that projects that were outsourced"Huh?
If you code as well as you write you're not much better off then the people you are complaining about.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421767</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245684240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Dude I so wish you didn't post anon....<br>But I understand why.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Dude I so wish you did n't post anon....But I understand why .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dude I so wish you didn't post anon....But I understand why.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417723</id>
	<title>Equality</title>
	<author>SirWraith</author>
	<datestamp>1245613860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Having traded in a Tech major for Music major, it's good to see that I haven't lost anything in potential employability.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Having traded in a Tech major for Music major , it 's good to see that I have n't lost anything in potential employability .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having traded in a Tech major for Music major, it's good to see that I haven't lost anything in potential employability.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418583</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245665040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been sitting here contemplating the same thing for a few weeks. It's become especially bad since the last upgrade of Opera (no, not the beta), to the point where I may visit Slasdot two or three times a week, compared to before when I spent most of my workday here. Seriously, trying to use the scrollwheel of the mouse makes things hang for an absolute minimum of fifteen seconds. Unless things start to improve dramatically, I probably will stop visiting Slashdot altogether, and I don't think I'm the only one.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been sitting here contemplating the same thing for a few weeks .
It 's become especially bad since the last upgrade of Opera ( no , not the beta ) , to the point where I may visit Slasdot two or three times a week , compared to before when I spent most of my workday here .
Seriously , trying to use the scrollwheel of the mouse makes things hang for an absolute minimum of fifteen seconds .
Unless things start to improve dramatically , I probably will stop visiting Slashdot altogether , and I do n't think I 'm the only one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been sitting here contemplating the same thing for a few weeks.
It's become especially bad since the last upgrade of Opera (no, not the beta), to the point where I may visit Slasdot two or three times a week, compared to before when I spent most of my workday here.
Seriously, trying to use the scrollwheel of the mouse makes things hang for an absolute minimum of fifteen seconds.
Unless things start to improve dramatically, I probably will stop visiting Slashdot altogether, and I don't think I'm the only one.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418827</id>
	<title>Se picaron!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245667200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Jajaja los gringos hueones se picaron heavy. Cuando los atacan en lo que les duele son implacables. Como pueden ser los indios mejor que ELLOS?? Jajajajajajaja. Hay una envidia y rabia incre&#237;ble en los comentarios.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Jajaja los gringos hueones se picaron heavy .
Cuando los atacan en lo que les duele son implacables .
Como pueden ser los indios mejor que ELLOS ? ?
Jajajajajajaja. Hay una envidia y rabia incre   ble en los comentarios .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Jajaja los gringos hueones se picaron heavy.
Cuando los atacan en lo que les duele son implacables.
Como pueden ser los indios mejor que ELLOS??
Jajajajajajaja. Hay una envidia y rabia increíble en los comentarios.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418453</id>
	<title>Something Wrong here</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245663720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>something fundamentally wrong with this posted statement. Vineet Nayar is not the CEO of HCL, but is the CEO of Mahindra Infotech...the company which very recently bought Satyam. Mr Nayar used to be the CEO of HCL earlier....unless this statement is from long back and has been posted here as a copy paste. So, we can choose to argue about whether the numbers are right or not, and whether US undergrads are employable or not....but the whole article itself might be false. Very recently, someone pointed out that a newspaper had reported that Wal-Mart gave away its IT systems and signed a $0.5Bn deal with Indian providers. That was as untrue<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>something fundamentally wrong with this posted statement .
Vineet Nayar is not the CEO of HCL , but is the CEO of Mahindra Infotech...the company which very recently bought Satyam .
Mr Nayar used to be the CEO of HCL earlier....unless this statement is from long back and has been posted here as a copy paste .
So , we can choose to argue about whether the numbers are right or not , and whether US undergrads are employable or not....but the whole article itself might be false .
Very recently , someone pointed out that a newspaper had reported that Wal-Mart gave away its IT systems and signed a $ 0.5Bn deal with Indian providers .
That was as untrue : - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>something fundamentally wrong with this posted statement.
Vineet Nayar is not the CEO of HCL, but is the CEO of Mahindra Infotech...the company which very recently bought Satyam.
Mr Nayar used to be the CEO of HCL earlier....unless this statement is from long back and has been posted here as a copy paste.
So, we can choose to argue about whether the numbers are right or not, and whether US undergrads are employable or not....but the whole article itself might be false.
Very recently, someone pointed out that a newspaper had reported that Wal-Mart gave away its IT systems and signed a $0.5Bn deal with Indian providers.
That was as untrue :-)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422119</id>
	<title>Re:#1:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245685380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>you have a hell of a lot of highly motivated, much cheaper competition out there</i></p><p>And if they were highly motivated, why wouldn't they move here?</p><p>They did.  What's left are the ones who weren't good enough to get here, and the ones who went back there to retire on all the money they made here.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>you have a hell of a lot of highly motivated , much cheaper competition out thereAnd if they were highly motivated , why would n't they move here ? They did .
What 's left are the ones who were n't good enough to get here , and the ones who went back there to retire on all the money they made here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>you have a hell of a lot of highly motivated, much cheaper competition out thereAnd if they were highly motivated, why wouldn't they move here?They did.
What's left are the ones who weren't good enough to get here, and the ones who went back there to retire on all the money they made here.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417615</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424217</id>
	<title>Re:#1:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245692460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>let's look at this another way, if by rich you mean a normal working wage that Americans can live on vs what people in developing countries can live on then yes Americans are unemployable.  Because why would an American who CAN do the job do it for 4 cents an hour?</p><p>The problem here though isn't whether or not Indians are better or Americans are better.  You have great coders in both (and other) areas.  You've also got bad coders.  You get what you pay for is the case the world over.<br>So what is really happening is we have dumbass managers at American companies that just want to show a good bottom line.  They DON"T CARE THAT THE CODE EVEN WORKS!! It's not their problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>let 's look at this another way , if by rich you mean a normal working wage that Americans can live on vs what people in developing countries can live on then yes Americans are unemployable .
Because why would an American who CAN do the job do it for 4 cents an hour ? The problem here though is n't whether or not Indians are better or Americans are better .
You have great coders in both ( and other ) areas .
You 've also got bad coders .
You get what you pay for is the case the world over.So what is really happening is we have dumbass managers at American companies that just want to show a good bottom line .
They DON " T CARE THAT THE CODE EVEN WORKS ! !
It 's not their problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>let's look at this another way, if by rich you mean a normal working wage that Americans can live on vs what people in developing countries can live on then yes Americans are unemployable.
Because why would an American who CAN do the job do it for 4 cents an hour?The problem here though isn't whether or not Indians are better or Americans are better.
You have great coders in both (and other) areas.
You've also got bad coders.
You get what you pay for is the case the world over.So what is really happening is we have dumbass managers at American companies that just want to show a good bottom line.
They DON"T CARE THAT THE CODE EVEN WORKS!!
It's not their problem.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417615</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28437261</id>
	<title>Typcial Outsourcer Blather</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245763080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well I don't know about this guy's company, but I do know that Indian outsourcing / insourcing companies are very scared of class action and RICO lawsuits regarding their discriminatory hiring practices. Remember, this is coming from a guy whose country has for centuries explicitly practiced discrimination against all but the Brahmin class. It's inherent to their way of thinking that some people are "superior" to others. They're racist and classist to their very core.</p><p>What they're finding out is that kind of crap doesn't fly over here and what's more - there are laws against it - holy cow!!!!</p><p>We all know the incessant cries for more H1Bs is coming from junk companies like Satyam and all the rest who collude in violation of applicable RICO laws to systematically distort the truth about the relative qualifications of tech candidates for the purpose of personally enriching themselves even as they pump into the system unqualified candidate after candidate from the Brahmin class of India.</p><p>Take a look at the guy in Slumdog who was living the high life with his whores and his coke and his "lifestyle" and you can pretty much see what motivates this kind of demented filth. That goes for all the American corporations also. These are purely sociopathic personalities operating on the Ayn Rand principle of enrich me and screw everyone and everything else, including the ground I stand on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well I do n't know about this guy 's company , but I do know that Indian outsourcing / insourcing companies are very scared of class action and RICO lawsuits regarding their discriminatory hiring practices .
Remember , this is coming from a guy whose country has for centuries explicitly practiced discrimination against all but the Brahmin class .
It 's inherent to their way of thinking that some people are " superior " to others .
They 're racist and classist to their very core.What they 're finding out is that kind of crap does n't fly over here and what 's more - there are laws against it - holy cow ! ! !
! We all know the incessant cries for more H1Bs is coming from junk companies like Satyam and all the rest who collude in violation of applicable RICO laws to systematically distort the truth about the relative qualifications of tech candidates for the purpose of personally enriching themselves even as they pump into the system unqualified candidate after candidate from the Brahmin class of India.Take a look at the guy in Slumdog who was living the high life with his whores and his coke and his " lifestyle " and you can pretty much see what motivates this kind of demented filth .
That goes for all the American corporations also .
These are purely sociopathic personalities operating on the Ayn Rand principle of enrich me and screw everyone and everything else , including the ground I stand on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well I don't know about this guy's company, but I do know that Indian outsourcing / insourcing companies are very scared of class action and RICO lawsuits regarding their discriminatory hiring practices.
Remember, this is coming from a guy whose country has for centuries explicitly practiced discrimination against all but the Brahmin class.
It's inherent to their way of thinking that some people are "superior" to others.
They're racist and classist to their very core.What they're finding out is that kind of crap doesn't fly over here and what's more - there are laws against it - holy cow!!!
!We all know the incessant cries for more H1Bs is coming from junk companies like Satyam and all the rest who collude in violation of applicable RICO laws to systematically distort the truth about the relative qualifications of tech candidates for the purpose of personally enriching themselves even as they pump into the system unqualified candidate after candidate from the Brahmin class of India.Take a look at the guy in Slumdog who was living the high life with his whores and his coke and his "lifestyle" and you can pretty much see what motivates this kind of demented filth.
That goes for all the American corporations also.
These are purely sociopathic personalities operating on the Ayn Rand principle of enrich me and screw everyone and everything else, including the ground I stand on.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28423195</id>
	<title>I'll call an Indian for you.</title>
	<author>bobbuck</author>
	<datestamp>1245689040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>They seem to be good with that stuff.</htmltext>
<tokenext>They seem to be good with that stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They seem to be good with that stuff.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424019</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245691800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Very interesting, thank you for your candor.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Very interesting , thank you for your candor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Very interesting, thank you for your candor.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425211</id>
	<title>Not very original</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245695940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have to agree with him, but he's not very original. I live in a university town (and I graduated from the university). About the time I graduated, a HP hiring manager (HP is a major local employer) said the same thing about grads from our university. It became a big political to-do with articles in the local paper, and he ended up issuing an apology and clarification statement. But I'm sure he meant what he said, and I agreed with him. Having just come through the CS program, I knew that it was my work experience and use of computers as a hobby, not anything I learned in class, that made me employable. But with our education system's "everyone gets an A" policy and politics crushing dissenters, it's getting worse, not better.</p><p>CS is something that should be practical and hands on like engineering, but the profs think of themselves as intellectuals and don't teach the nitty gritty of programming and systems administration, usually because they're not even close to competent at it themselves. CS is simply a very easy degree to get for left-brained people, so we end up churning out grads who truly are incompetent in the workplace.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have to agree with him , but he 's not very original .
I live in a university town ( and I graduated from the university ) .
About the time I graduated , a HP hiring manager ( HP is a major local employer ) said the same thing about grads from our university .
It became a big political to-do with articles in the local paper , and he ended up issuing an apology and clarification statement .
But I 'm sure he meant what he said , and I agreed with him .
Having just come through the CS program , I knew that it was my work experience and use of computers as a hobby , not anything I learned in class , that made me employable .
But with our education system 's " everyone gets an A " policy and politics crushing dissenters , it 's getting worse , not better.CS is something that should be practical and hands on like engineering , but the profs think of themselves as intellectuals and do n't teach the nitty gritty of programming and systems administration , usually because they 're not even close to competent at it themselves .
CS is simply a very easy degree to get for left-brained people , so we end up churning out grads who truly are incompetent in the workplace .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have to agree with him, but he's not very original.
I live in a university town (and I graduated from the university).
About the time I graduated, a HP hiring manager (HP is a major local employer) said the same thing about grads from our university.
It became a big political to-do with articles in the local paper, and he ended up issuing an apology and clarification statement.
But I'm sure he meant what he said, and I agreed with him.
Having just come through the CS program, I knew that it was my work experience and use of computers as a hobby, not anything I learned in class, that made me employable.
But with our education system's "everyone gets an A" policy and politics crushing dissenters, it's getting worse, not better.CS is something that should be practical and hands on like engineering, but the profs think of themselves as intellectuals and don't teach the nitty gritty of programming and systems administration, usually because they're not even close to competent at it themselves.
CS is simply a very easy degree to get for left-brained people, so we end up churning out grads who truly are incompetent in the workplace.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28428363</id>
	<title>More unemployed Americans</title>
	<author>J.R. Random</author>
	<datestamp>1245663420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>On the matter of increasing H-1b visas during a recession, I absolutely guarantee our whores^H^H^H^H^H^Hcongressmen will agree with Vineet Nayar.</htmltext>
<tokenext>On the matter of increasing H-1b visas during a recession , I absolutely guarantee our whores ^ H ^ H ^ H ^ H ^ H ^ Hcongressmen will agree with Vineet Nayar .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On the matter of increasing H-1b visas during a recession, I absolutely guarantee our whores^H^H^H^H^H^Hcongressmen will agree with Vineet Nayar.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28450293</id>
	<title>Re:Unfair? Competition</title>
	<author>RockDoctor</author>
	<datestamp>1245836400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do I detect a slight note of schadenfreude there? That the "there is no such thing as society", "devil take the hindmost", extreme right-wingers who make up the Capitalism Fan Club, are now just a little less happy that they're getting to feel the shit on the end of the shitty stick that they've been happily wielding for generations. I can just see you oozing sympathy for the poor little bunnies, exposed as they are to the cold, hard realisation that there are people who can do their jobs just as well, but cheaper.<br>[baby-speak]"Poor likkle-ikkle kwapitalists, Big Daddy Capitalist just buggered you and thrown your ass out on the street for a cheaper bit of fresh meat? Ah, diddums."[/baby-speak]<br>Did they expect anything else? No seriously, did they expect to get anything other than "shat on and spat on and raped and abused" (name that song - from one of the best albums of all time)?</p><p>Sympathy for the little bunnies from me? Not an iota.<br>For what it's worth, our Indian staff, we employ on the same contract as our UK staff, who are on the same contract as our European staff, who are on the same contract as our Eastern European staff. Everyone is on the same contract. Senior staff are required (not expected, required) to mentor junior staff (which is why on my last job, Pete and I, totalling over 40 years of experience, were taking a back seat to one of our Latvian staff with only 6 years of experience and a child-career-break. It's the break-out into team-leader for that one, and about a 15\% pay rise.)<br>We do this for a competitive advantage - our competitors are all in the habit of only hiring, as cheaply as possible, in Eastern Europe and India. So, as the news gets around in those markets that there is another employer in that market who hires on normal contracts and rates, all of a sudden our competitors find that they can't recruit anyone, and have to move onto the next source of cheap labour. Meanwhile, we get to pick and choose amongst the people that they've paid to recruit and train.<br>(Incidentally, we have a rule, uniformly applied, of a minimum of 5 years experience ; we know our industry and we know why there's a 50 to 70 \% drop out rate in the first 5 years. It's the on-site work 24x7x{14 or 21 or 28 or 42), and some people can't take it.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do I detect a slight note of schadenfreude there ?
That the " there is no such thing as society " , " devil take the hindmost " , extreme right-wingers who make up the Capitalism Fan Club , are now just a little less happy that they 're getting to feel the shit on the end of the shitty stick that they 've been happily wielding for generations .
I can just see you oozing sympathy for the poor little bunnies , exposed as they are to the cold , hard realisation that there are people who can do their jobs just as well , but cheaper .
[ baby-speak ] " Poor likkle-ikkle kwapitalists , Big Daddy Capitalist just buggered you and thrown your ass out on the street for a cheaper bit of fresh meat ?
Ah , diddums .
" [ /baby-speak ] Did they expect anything else ?
No seriously , did they expect to get anything other than " shat on and spat on and raped and abused " ( name that song - from one of the best albums of all time ) ? Sympathy for the little bunnies from me ?
Not an iota.For what it 's worth , our Indian staff , we employ on the same contract as our UK staff , who are on the same contract as our European staff , who are on the same contract as our Eastern European staff .
Everyone is on the same contract .
Senior staff are required ( not expected , required ) to mentor junior staff ( which is why on my last job , Pete and I , totalling over 40 years of experience , were taking a back seat to one of our Latvian staff with only 6 years of experience and a child-career-break .
It 's the break-out into team-leader for that one , and about a 15 \ % pay rise .
) We do this for a competitive advantage - our competitors are all in the habit of only hiring , as cheaply as possible , in Eastern Europe and India .
So , as the news gets around in those markets that there is another employer in that market who hires on normal contracts and rates , all of a sudden our competitors find that they ca n't recruit anyone , and have to move onto the next source of cheap labour .
Meanwhile , we get to pick and choose amongst the people that they 've paid to recruit and train .
( Incidentally , we have a rule , uniformly applied , of a minimum of 5 years experience ; we know our industry and we know why there 's a 50 to 70 \ % drop out rate in the first 5 years .
It 's the on-site work 24x7x { 14 or 21 or 28 or 42 ) , and some people ca n't take it .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do I detect a slight note of schadenfreude there?
That the "there is no such thing as society", "devil take the hindmost", extreme right-wingers who make up the Capitalism Fan Club, are now just a little less happy that they're getting to feel the shit on the end of the shitty stick that they've been happily wielding for generations.
I can just see you oozing sympathy for the poor little bunnies, exposed as they are to the cold, hard realisation that there are people who can do their jobs just as well, but cheaper.
[baby-speak]"Poor likkle-ikkle kwapitalists, Big Daddy Capitalist just buggered you and thrown your ass out on the street for a cheaper bit of fresh meat?
Ah, diddums.
"[/baby-speak]Did they expect anything else?
No seriously, did they expect to get anything other than "shat on and spat on and raped and abused" (name that song - from one of the best albums of all time)?Sympathy for the little bunnies from me?
Not an iota.For what it's worth, our Indian staff, we employ on the same contract as our UK staff, who are on the same contract as our European staff, who are on the same contract as our Eastern European staff.
Everyone is on the same contract.
Senior staff are required (not expected, required) to mentor junior staff (which is why on my last job, Pete and I, totalling over 40 years of experience, were taking a back seat to one of our Latvian staff with only 6 years of experience and a child-career-break.
It's the break-out into team-leader for that one, and about a 15\% pay rise.
)We do this for a competitive advantage - our competitors are all in the habit of only hiring, as cheaply as possible, in Eastern Europe and India.
So, as the news gets around in those markets that there is another employer in that market who hires on normal contracts and rates, all of a sudden our competitors find that they can't recruit anyone, and have to move onto the next source of cheap labour.
Meanwhile, we get to pick and choose amongst the people that they've paid to recruit and train.
(Incidentally, we have a rule, uniformly applied, of a minimum of 5 years experience ; we know our industry and we know why there's a 50 to 70 \% drop out rate in the first 5 years.
It's the on-site work 24x7x{14 or 21 or 28 or 42), and some people can't take it.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424805</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419169</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>hany</author>
	<datestamp>1245669960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The price discrepancies you mentioned have nothing to do with Indians as per their nationality/place they live and everything to do with whom you're buying from and what nationality/where you live (US) you are.</p><p>The "beauty" of import/export/retail is, that you simply haggle for the price, charging different people in different places different prices.</p><p>Example: We are in the US, I see you are a wealthy American so what do I charge you? If you are really eager to get my stuff, I ask hight price. If I see you are not interested, I offer it for lower price. The only part of that, where my production cost of the item comes into play is when you are really not interested: then I have to be really careful so as to not to sell you the item bellow my cost.</p><p>But that's it.</p><p>You pay more in the US (for the items in examples you gave) because:</p><ol>
  <li>you can</li><li>you are willing to</li></ol><p>Btw, in Slovakia (where I'm from) there was a time, when a same piece of furniture in one global company costed almost twice as much in Bratislava then in Vienna (we can say, almost "next village", half an hour drive) while in Slovakia the average income was a fraction of the average Austrian income. How's that? Because Slovak people were willing to pay the price.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The price discrepancies you mentioned have nothing to do with Indians as per their nationality/place they live and everything to do with whom you 're buying from and what nationality/where you live ( US ) you are.The " beauty " of import/export/retail is , that you simply haggle for the price , charging different people in different places different prices.Example : We are in the US , I see you are a wealthy American so what do I charge you ?
If you are really eager to get my stuff , I ask hight price .
If I see you are not interested , I offer it for lower price .
The only part of that , where my production cost of the item comes into play is when you are really not interested : then I have to be really careful so as to not to sell you the item bellow my cost.But that 's it.You pay more in the US ( for the items in examples you gave ) because : you canyou are willing toBtw , in Slovakia ( where I 'm from ) there was a time , when a same piece of furniture in one global company costed almost twice as much in Bratislava then in Vienna ( we can say , almost " next village " , half an hour drive ) while in Slovakia the average income was a fraction of the average Austrian income .
How 's that ?
Because Slovak people were willing to pay the price .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The price discrepancies you mentioned have nothing to do with Indians as per their nationality/place they live and everything to do with whom you're buying from and what nationality/where you live (US) you are.The "beauty" of import/export/retail is, that you simply haggle for the price, charging different people in different places different prices.Example: We are in the US, I see you are a wealthy American so what do I charge you?
If you are really eager to get my stuff, I ask hight price.
If I see you are not interested, I offer it for lower price.
The only part of that, where my production cost of the item comes into play is when you are really not interested: then I have to be really careful so as to not to sell you the item bellow my cost.But that's it.You pay more in the US (for the items in examples you gave) because:
  you canyou are willing toBtw, in Slovakia (where I'm from) there was a time, when a same piece of furniture in one global company costed almost twice as much in Bratislava then in Vienna (we can say, almost "next village", half an hour drive) while in Slovakia the average income was a fraction of the average Austrian income.
How's that?
Because Slovak people were willing to pay the price.
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420055</id>
	<title>THANK YOU!!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245677040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Thank you so very much!!<br> <br>
I did that and also checked "use classic index" under the "dynamic index" feature. It's much better to use this site now, but it still takes forever to load and parse the JS and whatever else the hell is going on (Borked CSS!?). At least I'm not currently having the comments page cluttered with widget artifacts to the point of not being able to see the comment content anymore.<br> <br>

Hopefully the admins don't roll out any more changes that break the site like they have been for the past few months<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-( I've been a regular reader and commenter here for the past 9 years, and if this shit keeps up I'll be leaving for good soon.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Thank you so very much ! !
I did that and also checked " use classic index " under the " dynamic index " feature .
It 's much better to use this site now , but it still takes forever to load and parse the JS and whatever else the hell is going on ( Borked CSS ! ? ) .
At least I 'm not currently having the comments page cluttered with widget artifacts to the point of not being able to see the comment content anymore .
Hopefully the admins do n't roll out any more changes that break the site like they have been for the past few months : - ( I 've been a regular reader and commenter here for the past 9 years , and if this shit keeps up I 'll be leaving for good soon .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thank you so very much!!
I did that and also checked "use classic index" under the "dynamic index" feature.
It's much better to use this site now, but it still takes forever to load and parse the JS and whatever else the hell is going on (Borked CSS!?).
At least I'm not currently having the comments page cluttered with widget artifacts to the point of not being able to see the comment content anymore.
Hopefully the admins don't roll out any more changes that break the site like they have been for the past few months :-( I've been a regular reader and commenter here for the past 9 years, and if this shit keeps up I'll be leaving for good soon.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418485</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417903</id>
	<title>Re:HCL Ha Ha</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245701760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You make a good point - these companies are incredibly bad for India's technical reputation, earned or not.  Two of my best team members are Indians - extremely talented software engineers with knowledge of the business end of it to boot.  Both born and educated in India, but now naturalized US citizens.  However, after repeated (unwilling, forced by management) experience with outsourcing development work and getting back nothing but crap for our money, any time I hear "Indian contractor" I just cringe, knowing how much effort it's going to take to clean up the mess.  I've never had an offshore code project in India go well - one came back tolerable, but that's about the best I can say.  Some of the rest wouldn't even compile, and those that did were unmaintainable gibberish or so damn buggy we could never put them in production.  All got rewritten as soon as my group had a spare few weeks. We literally - as we told management in the beginning - took a month to build some of this stuff, while it took us some 9 months to outsource it while consuming resources off my team to do it (management, spec writing, review, etc.).  Yet the management goons haven't yet learned, and they keep trying to send crap overseas.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You make a good point - these companies are incredibly bad for India 's technical reputation , earned or not .
Two of my best team members are Indians - extremely talented software engineers with knowledge of the business end of it to boot .
Both born and educated in India , but now naturalized US citizens .
However , after repeated ( unwilling , forced by management ) experience with outsourcing development work and getting back nothing but crap for our money , any time I hear " Indian contractor " I just cringe , knowing how much effort it 's going to take to clean up the mess .
I 've never had an offshore code project in India go well - one came back tolerable , but that 's about the best I can say .
Some of the rest would n't even compile , and those that did were unmaintainable gibberish or so damn buggy we could never put them in production .
All got rewritten as soon as my group had a spare few weeks .
We literally - as we told management in the beginning - took a month to build some of this stuff , while it took us some 9 months to outsource it while consuming resources off my team to do it ( management , spec writing , review , etc. ) .
Yet the management goons have n't yet learned , and they keep trying to send crap overseas .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You make a good point - these companies are incredibly bad for India's technical reputation, earned or not.
Two of my best team members are Indians - extremely talented software engineers with knowledge of the business end of it to boot.
Both born and educated in India, but now naturalized US citizens.
However, after repeated (unwilling, forced by management) experience with outsourcing development work and getting back nothing but crap for our money, any time I hear "Indian contractor" I just cringe, knowing how much effort it's going to take to clean up the mess.
I've never had an offshore code project in India go well - one came back tolerable, but that's about the best I can say.
Some of the rest wouldn't even compile, and those that did were unmaintainable gibberish or so damn buggy we could never put them in production.
All got rewritten as soon as my group had a spare few weeks.
We literally - as we told management in the beginning - took a month to build some of this stuff, while it took us some 9 months to outsource it while consuming resources off my team to do it (management, spec writing, review, etc.).
Yet the management goons haven't yet learned, and they keep trying to send crap overseas.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417489</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419833</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>ratboy666</author>
	<datestamp>1245675420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Talk about missing the point...</p><p>The point is that such disparity should be exploitable. The parent poster DOESN'T CARE why there is an order of magnitude price difference. If it does exist, he wants to exploit it.</p><p>That disparity could not exist in a free market. Since it does, the market IS being controlled, and the people being screwed are the ones on the "high side".</p><p>Got it now? You ended up making his point for him.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Talk about missing the point...The point is that such disparity should be exploitable .
The parent poster DOES N'T CARE why there is an order of magnitude price difference .
If it does exist , he wants to exploit it.That disparity could not exist in a free market .
Since it does , the market IS being controlled , and the people being screwed are the ones on the " high side " .Got it now ?
You ended up making his point for him .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Talk about missing the point...The point is that such disparity should be exploitable.
The parent poster DOESN'T CARE why there is an order of magnitude price difference.
If it does exist, he wants to exploit it.That disparity could not exist in a free market.
Since it does, the market IS being controlled, and the people being screwed are the ones on the "high side".Got it now?
You ended up making his point for him.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418367</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418395</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>moon3</author>
	<datestamp>1245663240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>One advice on "alien" source code.
<br> <br>
Never ever try to fix it. Just start a completely new code of your own.
<br> <br>That might be a tough decision, but often the time wasted to figure out and debug "alien" code is much more wasteful and it might take longer to debug then to rewrite the whole thing from scratch. The main problem is that you often can't be sure whether that damned thing would work 100\%, because it is full of bugs. That of course could mean a hard, slow and lagging start, but you will thank me in the end.</htmltext>
<tokenext>One advice on " alien " source code .
Never ever try to fix it .
Just start a completely new code of your own .
That might be a tough decision , but often the time wasted to figure out and debug " alien " code is much more wasteful and it might take longer to debug then to rewrite the whole thing from scratch .
The main problem is that you often ca n't be sure whether that damned thing would work 100 \ % , because it is full of bugs .
That of course could mean a hard , slow and lagging start , but you will thank me in the end .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One advice on "alien" source code.
Never ever try to fix it.
Just start a completely new code of your own.
That might be a tough decision, but often the time wasted to figure out and debug "alien" code is much more wasteful and it might take longer to debug then to rewrite the whole thing from scratch.
The main problem is that you often can't be sure whether that damned thing would work 100\%, because it is full of bugs.
That of course could mean a hard, slow and lagging start, but you will thank me in the end.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425525</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>DinDaddy</author>
	<datestamp>1245696900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would suspect it is that the more capable IT shops in India, with the more experienced and quality programmers have seen their costs and therefore the price they charge rise due to competition for these programmers.  At the same time, new lower quality shops are entering the market without reasonable skills, but bidding at the lower prices these American companies were expecting to see for outsourced work.</p><p>And they got what they paid for.  They are behind the curve on the level of savings available by outsourcing code to India by a couple of years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would suspect it is that the more capable IT shops in India , with the more experienced and quality programmers have seen their costs and therefore the price they charge rise due to competition for these programmers .
At the same time , new lower quality shops are entering the market without reasonable skills , but bidding at the lower prices these American companies were expecting to see for outsourced work.And they got what they paid for .
They are behind the curve on the level of savings available by outsourcing code to India by a couple of years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would suspect it is that the more capable IT shops in India, with the more experienced and quality programmers have seen their costs and therefore the price they charge rise due to competition for these programmers.
At the same time, new lower quality shops are entering the market without reasonable skills, but bidding at the lower prices these American companies were expecting to see for outsourced work.And they got what they paid for.
They are behind the curve on the level of savings available by outsourcing code to India by a couple of years.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417387</id>
	<title>outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245611040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>yes.. because getting in foreign workers will help REDUCE local unemployment.... maybe in soviet russia.</htmltext>
<tokenext>yes.. because getting in foreign workers will help REDUCE local unemployment.... maybe in soviet russia .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>yes.. because getting in foreign workers will help REDUCE local unemployment.... maybe in soviet russia.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417583</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245612660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>there's a reason why those jobs are outsourced, it's because it's A LOT CHEAPER. dont blame the economy on other countries ability to provide labor, companies want to save money.</p><p>the government needs to drive down the cost of health care, once that's done, jobs could stabilize in the U.S., not everyone could afford to pay for their employees medical expenses.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>there 's a reason why those jobs are outsourced , it 's because it 's A LOT CHEAPER .
dont blame the economy on other countries ability to provide labor , companies want to save money.the government needs to drive down the cost of health care , once that 's done , jobs could stabilize in the U.S. , not everyone could afford to pay for their employees medical expenses .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>there's a reason why those jobs are outsourced, it's because it's A LOT CHEAPER.
dont blame the economy on other countries ability to provide labor, companies want to save money.the government needs to drive down the cost of health care, once that's done, jobs could stabilize in the U.S., not everyone could afford to pay for their employees medical expenses.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420433</id>
	<title>Indian hypocrisy is palpable</title>
	<author>walterbyrd</author>
	<datestamp>1245679320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If an American called Indians unemployable, that American would labeled a bigot. But Indians say that sort of thing about Americans all the time. According to India, and a lot of US companies: all the smart people in the world come from countries where people earn as little as $1 a day.</p><p>If anybody in the US suggests that visa limits not be raised, India screams and cries about US racism and xenophobia. But, what percentage of Americans work for WiPro? My understanding is that India is not all accepting of immigrants from Bangladesh. And how can India's caste system not be consider one of the earth's most extreme form of bigotry? I might add, the US has a well earned reputation of being lavishly generous in matters of immigration.</p><p>India constantly warns the US about the horrors of a "brain drain" that would be<br>caused by the US not allowing unlimited guest workers from India. But why is<br>India not worried about the Indian "brain drain" caused by the "best and<br>brightest" leaving India. We might also want to give some thought to the US<br>"brain drain" that is being caused by the US "best and brightest" avoiding STEM<br>jobs, because the job prospects for Americans is so dismal.</p><p>Azim Premji, who owns 79\% of WiPro, recently wrote an article that warned that "US protectionism will be counter-productive"</p><p><div class="quote"><p>"If we get into protectionism, then the West is going to get a wave of protectionism in response, and that is going to turn back the clock 20 years," Premji told The Sunday Times.</p><p>"And it will be America and Europe that suffer," he said because they will be excluded from the only growth markets left, in Asia, Africa and China. You are not going to grow at 10 per cent trading in London, are you," he asked.</p></div><p> <a href="http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Infotech/ITeS/US-protectionism-will-be-counter-productive-Azim-Premji/articleshow/4683155.cms" title="indiatimes.com">http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Infotech/ITeS/US-protectionism-will-be-counter-productive-Azim-Premji/articleshow/4683155.cms</a> [indiatimes.com]</p><p>Ever hear the expression: "what is good for the goose, is good for the gander?"</p><p>India is one of the most protectionist nations on earth, and they have been for<br>a long time. If India wants to consider guest workers part of trade agreements,<br>then when does India make good for the three million Indians already living in<br>the USA? Or does India consider "protectionism" a one-way thing?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If an American called Indians unemployable , that American would labeled a bigot .
But Indians say that sort of thing about Americans all the time .
According to India , and a lot of US companies : all the smart people in the world come from countries where people earn as little as $ 1 a day.If anybody in the US suggests that visa limits not be raised , India screams and cries about US racism and xenophobia .
But , what percentage of Americans work for WiPro ?
My understanding is that India is not all accepting of immigrants from Bangladesh .
And how can India 's caste system not be consider one of the earth 's most extreme form of bigotry ?
I might add , the US has a well earned reputation of being lavishly generous in matters of immigration.India constantly warns the US about the horrors of a " brain drain " that would becaused by the US not allowing unlimited guest workers from India .
But why isIndia not worried about the Indian " brain drain " caused by the " best andbrightest " leaving India .
We might also want to give some thought to the US " brain drain " that is being caused by the US " best and brightest " avoiding STEMjobs , because the job prospects for Americans is so dismal.Azim Premji , who owns 79 \ % of WiPro , recently wrote an article that warned that " US protectionism will be counter-productive " " If we get into protectionism , then the West is going to get a wave of protectionism in response , and that is going to turn back the clock 20 years , " Premji told The Sunday Times .
" And it will be America and Europe that suffer , " he said because they will be excluded from the only growth markets left , in Asia , Africa and China .
You are not going to grow at 10 per cent trading in London , are you , " he asked .
http : //economictimes.indiatimes.com/Infotech/ITeS/US-protectionism-will-be-counter-productive-Azim-Premji/articleshow/4683155.cms [ indiatimes.com ] Ever hear the expression : " what is good for the goose , is good for the gander ?
" India is one of the most protectionist nations on earth , and they have been fora long time .
If India wants to consider guest workers part of trade agreements,then when does India make good for the three million Indians already living inthe USA ?
Or does India consider " protectionism " a one-way thing ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If an American called Indians unemployable, that American would labeled a bigot.
But Indians say that sort of thing about Americans all the time.
According to India, and a lot of US companies: all the smart people in the world come from countries where people earn as little as $1 a day.If anybody in the US suggests that visa limits not be raised, India screams and cries about US racism and xenophobia.
But, what percentage of Americans work for WiPro?
My understanding is that India is not all accepting of immigrants from Bangladesh.
And how can India's caste system not be consider one of the earth's most extreme form of bigotry?
I might add, the US has a well earned reputation of being lavishly generous in matters of immigration.India constantly warns the US about the horrors of a "brain drain" that would becaused by the US not allowing unlimited guest workers from India.
But why isIndia not worried about the Indian "brain drain" caused by the "best andbrightest" leaving India.
We might also want to give some thought to the US"brain drain" that is being caused by the US "best and brightest" avoiding STEMjobs, because the job prospects for Americans is so dismal.Azim Premji, who owns 79\% of WiPro, recently wrote an article that warned that "US protectionism will be counter-productive""If we get into protectionism, then the West is going to get a wave of protectionism in response, and that is going to turn back the clock 20 years," Premji told The Sunday Times.
"And it will be America and Europe that suffer," he said because they will be excluded from the only growth markets left, in Asia, Africa and China.
You are not going to grow at 10 per cent trading in London, are you," he asked.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Infotech/ITeS/US-protectionism-will-be-counter-productive-Azim-Premji/articleshow/4683155.cms [indiatimes.com]Ever hear the expression: "what is good for the goose, is good for the gander?
"India is one of the most protectionist nations on earth, and they have been fora long time.
If India wants to consider guest workers part of trade agreements,then when does India make good for the three million Indians already living inthe USA?
Or does India consider "protectionism" a one-way thing?
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418517</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Paul Jakma</author>
	<datestamp>1245664320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Uhm, the guys who invented the transistor, and setup a bunch of well-known semiconductor companies, the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traitorous\_Eight" title="wikipedia.org">traitorous eight</a> [wikipedia.org], how many were born outside the USA? Of the rest, how many were born to immigrants to the USA?</p><p>(The answers: "at least 3" for the first, and "at least 1" for the second).</p><p>It's hilarious that a nation whose success was built on waves of immigration can spawn people so ignorant of the contributions of immigrants. The rest of the 1st world doesn't mind though - we'll be glad to take the USAs spot as patron of the world's best &amp; brightest - please do stop your H1-B programme.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Uhm , the guys who invented the transistor , and setup a bunch of well-known semiconductor companies , the traitorous eight [ wikipedia.org ] , how many were born outside the USA ?
Of the rest , how many were born to immigrants to the USA ?
( The answers : " at least 3 " for the first , and " at least 1 " for the second ) .It 's hilarious that a nation whose success was built on waves of immigration can spawn people so ignorant of the contributions of immigrants .
The rest of the 1st world does n't mind though - we 'll be glad to take the USAs spot as patron of the world 's best &amp; brightest - please do stop your H1-B programme .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Uhm, the guys who invented the transistor, and setup a bunch of well-known semiconductor companies, the traitorous eight [wikipedia.org], how many were born outside the USA?
Of the rest, how many were born to immigrants to the USA?
(The answers: "at least 3" for the first, and "at least 1" for the second).It's hilarious that a nation whose success was built on waves of immigration can spawn people so ignorant of the contributions of immigrants.
The rest of the 1st world doesn't mind though - we'll be glad to take the USAs spot as patron of the world's best &amp; brightest - please do stop your H1-B programme.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417415</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425289</id>
	<title>Re:India: The skrypt kiddies of programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245696180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At a previous company, our executives decided to outsource all projects in 'maintenance phase' to Wipro. The bug fixes and reports we got from them were, for the most part, absolute jibberish. Once in a while we'd get someone assigned that seemed to actually understand the code and have good skills.. but after a few weeks these competent employees caught the attention of the management there so they'd be promoted to Wipro's own projects and we'd get some new clueless guy. It seemed to us like our company's work was just being used as training ground for their own gain.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At a previous company , our executives decided to outsource all projects in 'maintenance phase ' to Wipro .
The bug fixes and reports we got from them were , for the most part , absolute jibberish .
Once in a while we 'd get someone assigned that seemed to actually understand the code and have good skills.. but after a few weeks these competent employees caught the attention of the management there so they 'd be promoted to Wipro 's own projects and we 'd get some new clueless guy .
It seemed to us like our company 's work was just being used as training ground for their own gain .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At a previous company, our executives decided to outsource all projects in 'maintenance phase' to Wipro.
The bug fixes and reports we got from them were, for the most part, absolute jibberish.
Once in a while we'd get someone assigned that seemed to actually understand the code and have good skills.. but after a few weeks these competent employees caught the attention of the management there so they'd be promoted to Wipro's own projects and we'd get some new clueless guy.
It seemed to us like our company's work was just being used as training ground for their own gain.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417683</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422527</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245686760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At my place of employement (we do hardware, e.g., integrated silicon devices).  My experience with Chinese co-workers has not been that good.  Communication is vital to our job.  Projects are massive, there are many people working on them, and those who can't communicate well never do great jobs.  The Chinese and Taiwanese who I've worked with had all had huge language barriers they never overcame and have awful written English abilities.  Geographically I've only worked in Washington and Oregon, but in these regions, the Korean and Vietnamese immigrants outperform their chinese co-workers in almost every situation useful to the job:  Spoken and Written Lanuage, Programming Ability, Ability to Debug problems.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At my place of employement ( we do hardware , e.g. , integrated silicon devices ) .
My experience with Chinese co-workers has not been that good .
Communication is vital to our job .
Projects are massive , there are many people working on them , and those who ca n't communicate well never do great jobs .
The Chinese and Taiwanese who I 've worked with had all had huge language barriers they never overcame and have awful written English abilities .
Geographically I 've only worked in Washington and Oregon , but in these regions , the Korean and Vietnamese immigrants outperform their chinese co-workers in almost every situation useful to the job : Spoken and Written Lanuage , Programming Ability , Ability to Debug problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At my place of employement (we do hardware, e.g., integrated silicon devices).
My experience with Chinese co-workers has not been that good.
Communication is vital to our job.
Projects are massive, there are many people working on them, and those who can't communicate well never do great jobs.
The Chinese and Taiwanese who I've worked with had all had huge language barriers they never overcame and have awful written English abilities.
Geographically I've only worked in Washington and Oregon, but in these regions, the Korean and Vietnamese immigrants outperform their chinese co-workers in almost every situation useful to the job:  Spoken and Written Lanuage, Programming Ability, Ability to Debug problems.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28434449</id>
	<title>Programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245689760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>All of us programmers are reaping what we sow...Many people out there were like "Oh, manufacturing, of course thats going to be outsourced...You shouldn't be able to earn $40/hour to turn a screwdriver on an assembly line"...well, the same thing that happened in the manufacturing industry is going to happen in programming.  Sure, right now the quality of the code in India isn't that great, but the people who live there are just as smart as us and it's only a matter of time before they catch up.  And, when they catch up, they'll still cost less...which means most of the jobs will go over there, and just like the uaw worker who's been out a job for the last decade, we'll be looking at the unemployment line. Pretty soon everybody will be working at either a hospital, wal-mart, or mcdonalds.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>All of us programmers are reaping what we sow...Many people out there were like " Oh , manufacturing , of course thats going to be outsourced...You should n't be able to earn $ 40/hour to turn a screwdriver on an assembly line " ...well , the same thing that happened in the manufacturing industry is going to happen in programming .
Sure , right now the quality of the code in India is n't that great , but the people who live there are just as smart as us and it 's only a matter of time before they catch up .
And , when they catch up , they 'll still cost less...which means most of the jobs will go over there , and just like the uaw worker who 's been out a job for the last decade , we 'll be looking at the unemployment line .
Pretty soon everybody will be working at either a hospital , wal-mart , or mcdonalds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All of us programmers are reaping what we sow...Many people out there were like "Oh, manufacturing, of course thats going to be outsourced...You shouldn't be able to earn $40/hour to turn a screwdriver on an assembly line"...well, the same thing that happened in the manufacturing industry is going to happen in programming.
Sure, right now the quality of the code in India isn't that great, but the people who live there are just as smart as us and it's only a matter of time before they catch up.
And, when they catch up, they'll still cost less...which means most of the jobs will go over there, and just like the uaw worker who's been out a job for the last decade, we'll be looking at the unemployment line.
Pretty soon everybody will be working at either a hospital, wal-mart, or mcdonalds.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420021</id>
	<title>Re:Where's India's domestic economy?</title>
	<author>jollyreaper</author>
	<datestamp>1245676860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>To take the example of a DVD, only considering America and India. A film has a fixed cost of say $100 million to recoup from DVD sales, and each individual DVD has a cost of say $0.20 to produce and sell. If the DVD seller only sold at $19.99 in both countries then sales in India would be negligible, meaning that sales in America will need to cover the entire cost of both making the film and pressing the DVDs.</p><p>If they sold DVDs at $2.50 everywhere then the margin would be insufficient to cover their costs.</p><p>What you are ignoring is that the by selling the DVD in India at $2.50 the company knows it wont cover all the overhead costs, but it will cover some of them. If Indian sales generate $5 million then it lowers the amount they need to charge in America to make a profit by $5 million. If films etc weren't sold at a lower price in countries with lower wages then they would have higher prices in the countries where they are sold in order to cover the lost revenue.</p></div><p>If they sell it for $2.50 everywhere and only make back $50 mil on a $100 mil movie, then maybe they'll learn to make their movies more efficiently. The magic of the market in action.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>To take the example of a DVD , only considering America and India .
A film has a fixed cost of say $ 100 million to recoup from DVD sales , and each individual DVD has a cost of say $ 0.20 to produce and sell .
If the DVD seller only sold at $ 19.99 in both countries then sales in India would be negligible , meaning that sales in America will need to cover the entire cost of both making the film and pressing the DVDs.If they sold DVDs at $ 2.50 everywhere then the margin would be insufficient to cover their costs.What you are ignoring is that the by selling the DVD in India at $ 2.50 the company knows it wont cover all the overhead costs , but it will cover some of them .
If Indian sales generate $ 5 million then it lowers the amount they need to charge in America to make a profit by $ 5 million .
If films etc were n't sold at a lower price in countries with lower wages then they would have higher prices in the countries where they are sold in order to cover the lost revenue.If they sell it for $ 2.50 everywhere and only make back $ 50 mil on a $ 100 mil movie , then maybe they 'll learn to make their movies more efficiently .
The magic of the market in action .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To take the example of a DVD, only considering America and India.
A film has a fixed cost of say $100 million to recoup from DVD sales, and each individual DVD has a cost of say $0.20 to produce and sell.
If the DVD seller only sold at $19.99 in both countries then sales in India would be negligible, meaning that sales in America will need to cover the entire cost of both making the film and pressing the DVDs.If they sold DVDs at $2.50 everywhere then the margin would be insufficient to cover their costs.What you are ignoring is that the by selling the DVD in India at $2.50 the company knows it wont cover all the overhead costs, but it will cover some of them.
If Indian sales generate $5 million then it lowers the amount they need to charge in America to make a profit by $5 million.
If films etc weren't sold at a lower price in countries with lower wages then they would have higher prices in the countries where they are sold in order to cover the lost revenue.If they sell it for $2.50 everywhere and only make back $50 mil on a $100 mil movie, then maybe they'll learn to make their movies more efficiently.
The magic of the market in action.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418367</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418185</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Greyfox</author>
	<datestamp>1245704340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've seen good and bad attempts at outsourcing, and the companies that think they can just throw a little cash at India and get something good out of it are the ones that are going to fail. Most of them are awful at communicating with their <i>own</i> guys inside the company much less with people halfway around the world. Figure out how to express a cohesive business strategy first, <b>then</b> go to India and tell them what you want. And make sure you meet with the regularly to make sure they stay on track. And by the time you're done, you still won't have saved all that much over keeping everything local.
<p>
Once the Indians and Chinese get better than us at formulating and communicating their strategies, we're pretty much done. Oh well... We had a good run. I look forward to being the guy with the funky accent that the Chinese guy calls for tech support...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've seen good and bad attempts at outsourcing , and the companies that think they can just throw a little cash at India and get something good out of it are the ones that are going to fail .
Most of them are awful at communicating with their own guys inside the company much less with people halfway around the world .
Figure out how to express a cohesive business strategy first , then go to India and tell them what you want .
And make sure you meet with the regularly to make sure they stay on track .
And by the time you 're done , you still wo n't have saved all that much over keeping everything local .
Once the Indians and Chinese get better than us at formulating and communicating their strategies , we 're pretty much done .
Oh well... We had a good run .
I look forward to being the guy with the funky accent that the Chinese guy calls for tech support.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've seen good and bad attempts at outsourcing, and the companies that think they can just throw a little cash at India and get something good out of it are the ones that are going to fail.
Most of them are awful at communicating with their own guys inside the company much less with people halfway around the world.
Figure out how to express a cohesive business strategy first, then go to India and tell them what you want.
And make sure you meet with the regularly to make sure they stay on track.
And by the time you're done, you still won't have saved all that much over keeping everything local.
Once the Indians and Chinese get better than us at formulating and communicating their strategies, we're pretty much done.
Oh well... We had a good run.
I look forward to being the guy with the funky accent that the Chinese guy calls for tech support...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418387</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245663120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, there's no way to turn it off.  It was designed by all those incompetent American programmers!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , there 's no way to turn it off .
It was designed by all those incompetent American programmers !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, there's no way to turn it off.
It was designed by all those incompetent American programmers!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419551</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Antique Geekmeister</author>
	<datestamp>1245673140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's spraying little unselectable boxes all over my screen. If you have to use a stylesheet, you're usually doing it wrong. If you have to use Javascript for a pure text based website like Slashdot, you are \_definitely\_ doing it wrong: it destabilizes your display and multiplies the testing and development cost ridiculously.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's spraying little unselectable boxes all over my screen .
If you have to use a stylesheet , you 're usually doing it wrong .
If you have to use Javascript for a pure text based website like Slashdot , you are \ _definitely \ _ doing it wrong : it destabilizes your display and multiplies the testing and development cost ridiculously .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's spraying little unselectable boxes all over my screen.
If you have to use a stylesheet, you're usually doing it wrong.
If you have to use Javascript for a pure text based website like Slashdot, you are \_definitely\_ doing it wrong: it destabilizes your display and multiplies the testing and development cost ridiculously.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425143</id>
	<title>Re:I find most Indians incompetent</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245695640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> I have worked with plenty of Indian talent in Silicon Valley<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list.</p> </div><p><div class="quote"><p> where you go to school, or if you go to school, is irrelevant... The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list.</p> </div><p>Dude, I would move <i>you</i> off my list simply for not having a coherent message from start to finish.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have worked with plenty of Indian talent in Silicon Valley ... The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list .
where you go to school , or if you go to school , is irrelevant... The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list .
Dude , I would move you off my list simply for not having a coherent message from start to finish .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I have worked with plenty of Indian talent in Silicon Valley ... The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list.
where you go to school, or if you go to school, is irrelevant... The Chinese and Europeans are the folks I move to the top of the interview list.
Dude, I would move you off my list simply for not having a coherent message from start to finish.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417721</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420655</id>
	<title>Washington State Gives H1B &amp; Dependents a brea</title>
	<author>UranusHertz</author>
	<datestamp>1245680280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So I guess Mr. Nayar will soon have to include many of his fellow country men (and women).  Washington State Governor just signed legislation to allow H1B workers and their dependents to gain residency rates on tuition at Washington States colleges and universities.  This was, of course, spearheaded by former Microsoft employee turned state representative, Ross Hunter.</p><p>So will Microsoft and the other high tech companies in the Northwest not consider hiring US trained H1B workers in the future?  I think not.</p><p><a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009366983\_tuition22m.html" title="nwsource.com" rel="nofollow">Story here @ the Seattle Times</a> [nwsource.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So I guess Mr. Nayar will soon have to include many of his fellow country men ( and women ) .
Washington State Governor just signed legislation to allow H1B workers and their dependents to gain residency rates on tuition at Washington States colleges and universities .
This was , of course , spearheaded by former Microsoft employee turned state representative , Ross Hunter.So will Microsoft and the other high tech companies in the Northwest not consider hiring US trained H1B workers in the future ?
I think not.Story here @ the Seattle Times [ nwsource.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So I guess Mr. Nayar will soon have to include many of his fellow country men (and women).
Washington State Governor just signed legislation to allow H1B workers and their dependents to gain residency rates on tuition at Washington States colleges and universities.
This was, of course, spearheaded by former Microsoft employee turned state representative, Ross Hunter.So will Microsoft and the other high tech companies in the Northwest not consider hiring US trained H1B workers in the future?
I think not.Story here @ the Seattle Times [nwsource.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418639</id>
	<title>Let's face it, most code is that bad</title>
	<author>Nicolas MONNET</author>
	<datestamp>1245665520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most code out there is in-house stuff, and 99\% of it sucks harder than Windows ME. Outsource that crap, and you won't get anything better, there is no reason for it. People (PHBs) who managed these projects and got them where they are the same who are managing the outsourcing. It can't possibly be any better. Cheaper? Not even sure about that.<br>There is a huge difference between domestic shitpiles of bad code and outsourced dungmounds of crappy software. The domestic bad coders might not know shit about coding, but they know what it's supposed to do, and eventually, they manage, through trial and error, to produce something that sort of does something useful.<br>The Indian developer has no reason to be any worse than his western counterpart, but he certainly doesn't share the same culture. Simple things can be worlds apart; and even the if the spec is super detailed, you end up with something that fits it (sort of) but is completely retarded because the programmer had no idea what the fuck he was coding it for.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most code out there is in-house stuff , and 99 \ % of it sucks harder than Windows ME .
Outsource that crap , and you wo n't get anything better , there is no reason for it .
People ( PHBs ) who managed these projects and got them where they are the same who are managing the outsourcing .
It ca n't possibly be any better .
Cheaper ? Not even sure about that.There is a huge difference between domestic shitpiles of bad code and outsourced dungmounds of crappy software .
The domestic bad coders might not know shit about coding , but they know what it 's supposed to do , and eventually , they manage , through trial and error , to produce something that sort of does something useful.The Indian developer has no reason to be any worse than his western counterpart , but he certainly does n't share the same culture .
Simple things can be worlds apart ; and even the if the spec is super detailed , you end up with something that fits it ( sort of ) but is completely retarded because the programmer had no idea what the fuck he was coding it for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most code out there is in-house stuff, and 99\% of it sucks harder than Windows ME.
Outsource that crap, and you won't get anything better, there is no reason for it.
People (PHBs) who managed these projects and got them where they are the same who are managing the outsourcing.
It can't possibly be any better.
Cheaper? Not even sure about that.There is a huge difference between domestic shitpiles of bad code and outsourced dungmounds of crappy software.
The domestic bad coders might not know shit about coding, but they know what it's supposed to do, and eventually, they manage, through trial and error, to produce something that sort of does something useful.The Indian developer has no reason to be any worse than his western counterpart, but he certainly doesn't share the same culture.
Simple things can be worlds apart; and even the if the spec is super detailed, you end up with something that fits it (sort of) but is completely retarded because the programmer had no idea what the fuck he was coding it for.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28424677</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245694020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Block the domains *.fsdn.com and you'll get rid of all the crap.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Block the domains * .fsdn.com and you 'll get rid of all the crap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Block the domains *.fsdn.com and you'll get rid of all the crap.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419013</id>
	<title>It is interesting to see....</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1245668880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... how somebody making money  says it like it is, and instead of reflexive thought about how to get better at doing the work, one gets a tirade about how bad the Indians actually are.</p><p>This guy will hire US workers if it was more profitable, it isn't, deal with it.</p><p>I have interviewed many people from India and Pakistan, and in general terms they were technically superior to people from EU countries (bar Poland) and the US.</p><p>But you can keep dreaming that you have an inherent right to be better.  Scratch the surface of most tech companies of any note in the last 20 years, and often you find that the involvement of foreigners to make things happen is quite prevalent.</p><p>I don't know where most of you have worked, I have worked for several of the most recognized companies in the world, and where there was involvement with Indian companies what was there was a very fruitful relationship, with people getting things actually done.</p><p>If you really think that money is the only motivation to relocate or outsource, you are sorely deluded. As long as you decide to follow this path of delusion you will be in no position to address the real problem: the lack of competitivity  of US Tech workers.in some tech sectors (it is not like everything is being outsourced BTW)....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... how somebody making money says it like it is , and instead of reflexive thought about how to get better at doing the work , one gets a tirade about how bad the Indians actually are.This guy will hire US workers if it was more profitable , it is n't , deal with it.I have interviewed many people from India and Pakistan , and in general terms they were technically superior to people from EU countries ( bar Poland ) and the US.But you can keep dreaming that you have an inherent right to be better .
Scratch the surface of most tech companies of any note in the last 20 years , and often you find that the involvement of foreigners to make things happen is quite prevalent.I do n't know where most of you have worked , I have worked for several of the most recognized companies in the world , and where there was involvement with Indian companies what was there was a very fruitful relationship , with people getting things actually done.If you really think that money is the only motivation to relocate or outsource , you are sorely deluded .
As long as you decide to follow this path of delusion you will be in no position to address the real problem : the lack of competitivity of US Tech workers.in some tech sectors ( it is not like everything is being outsourced BTW ) ... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... how somebody making money  says it like it is, and instead of reflexive thought about how to get better at doing the work, one gets a tirade about how bad the Indians actually are.This guy will hire US workers if it was more profitable, it isn't, deal with it.I have interviewed many people from India and Pakistan, and in general terms they were technically superior to people from EU countries (bar Poland) and the US.But you can keep dreaming that you have an inherent right to be better.
Scratch the surface of most tech companies of any note in the last 20 years, and often you find that the involvement of foreigners to make things happen is quite prevalent.I don't know where most of you have worked, I have worked for several of the most recognized companies in the world, and where there was involvement with Indian companies what was there was a very fruitful relationship, with people getting things actually done.If you really think that money is the only motivation to relocate or outsource, you are sorely deluded.
As long as you decide to follow this path of delusion you will be in no position to address the real problem: the lack of competitivity  of US Tech workers.in some tech sectors (it is not like everything is being outsourced BTW)....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425105</id>
	<title>Re:I'll guess I'll complain on Slashdot again</title>
	<author>drsquare</author>
	<datestamp>1245695520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you're capable of writing an MMO yourself, you should be capable of either writing software yourself without an employer, or founding a startup with someone else.</p><blockquote><div><p>But hey, thats just me, a spoiled American I guess.</p></div></blockquote><p>Well, America wasn't founded by people who waited for people to give them a job.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 're capable of writing an MMO yourself , you should be capable of either writing software yourself without an employer , or founding a startup with someone else.But hey , thats just me , a spoiled American I guess.Well , America was n't founded by people who waited for people to give them a job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you're capable of writing an MMO yourself, you should be capable of either writing software yourself without an employer, or founding a startup with someone else.But hey, thats just me, a spoiled American I guess.Well, America wasn't founded by people who waited for people to give them a job.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418351</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418327</id>
	<title>Re:#1:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245662460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>do you know what #1 and #2 are? facts</p></div><p>no, they're theories.  at best.  or maybe just assertions.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>do you know what # 1 and # 2 are ?
factsno , they 're theories .
at best .
or maybe just assertions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>do you know what #1 and #2 are?
factsno, they're theories.
at best.
or maybe just assertions.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417615</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419499</id>
	<title>durkerdur</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245672900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>THEY TOOK R JOBS!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>THEY TOOK R JOBS !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>THEY TOOK R JOBS!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28423267</id>
	<title>Bangalore Bargain Bin Blunders</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245689340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Every time my company sends work to our India business office (instead of outsourcing, we have our own offices and direct employees there), we end up having to spend twice the time fixing it that we would have to just do it right ourselves the first time.</p><p>The only way I've ever seen decent work come out of the "Bangalore Bargain Bin" was when the project was IMPOSSIBLY over-specced.</p><p>I will say that we have an Indian DBA who lives here in the US, and she is phenomenal... it's specifically our India business office that's utter crap, and from what I gather from outsourcing horror stories, they're just the same.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Every time my company sends work to our India business office ( instead of outsourcing , we have our own offices and direct employees there ) , we end up having to spend twice the time fixing it that we would have to just do it right ourselves the first time.The only way I 've ever seen decent work come out of the " Bangalore Bargain Bin " was when the project was IMPOSSIBLY over-specced.I will say that we have an Indian DBA who lives here in the US , and she is phenomenal... it 's specifically our India business office that 's utter crap , and from what I gather from outsourcing horror stories , they 're just the same .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Every time my company sends work to our India business office (instead of outsourcing, we have our own offices and direct employees there), we end up having to spend twice the time fixing it that we would have to just do it right ourselves the first time.The only way I've ever seen decent work come out of the "Bangalore Bargain Bin" was when the project was IMPOSSIBLY over-specced.I will say that we have an Indian DBA who lives here in the US, and she is phenomenal... it's specifically our India business office that's utter crap, and from what I gather from outsourcing horror stories, they're just the same.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28421869</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245684660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>The solution I found was to ad-block the images of the buttons.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The solution I found was to ad-block the images of the buttons .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The solution I found was to ad-block the images of the buttons.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28422305</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245686040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's a huge difference between an immigrant and a foreign national.  The immigrant realized that his country and culture weren't working and he had the drive to give up his entire life and move to a new country so he could prosper.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a huge difference between an immigrant and a foreign national .
The immigrant realized that his country and culture were n't working and he had the drive to give up his entire life and move to a new country so he could prosper .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a huge difference between an immigrant and a foreign national.
The immigrant realized that his country and culture weren't working and he had the drive to give up his entire life and move to a new country so he could prosper.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418517</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417591</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>twostix</author>
	<datestamp>1245612780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I posted this before and I'll post it again.</p><p>So far in the last 12 months I've had three side projects that projects that were outsourced but for whatever reason such a mess was made of them that the clients have brought them to us to fix at a higher than normal rate.</p><p>My employer's now collaborating with an "reverse" outsourcing mob who've set themselves up to help people bring their failing outsourced projects back and are getting a fair bit of work through it.</p><p>To be honest, the quality of code I'm seeing is easily the worst I've ever seen and that includes half-assed open source projects.   Whether that's because it's just "sweatshop code" as one client put it or they are attempting to write super advanced AI code generators and using them to generate the code...and failing miserably, I don't know.  But it's terrible.  From the complete lack of imagination and forward thinking in design, right down to the god awful highly inconsistently cased variable names.</p><p>Remember this is *three* different projects from three different Indian companies theoretically written by three different sets of programmers.  The code all looks and feels the same, which leads me to believe there's something going on industry wide over there.  What that is I have no idea but they need to fix it quick smart as the industry as a whole is getting a bit of a reputation.</p><p>What I do know is people are willing to pay much more once they've tried outsourcing and failed.</p><p>Those that don't go out of business in the mean time that is.</p><p>(Yes I'm sure there's some top quality code coming out of India, I doubt most of it is written by the sorts of companies in this articlee).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I posted this before and I 'll post it again.So far in the last 12 months I 've had three side projects that projects that were outsourced but for whatever reason such a mess was made of them that the clients have brought them to us to fix at a higher than normal rate.My employer 's now collaborating with an " reverse " outsourcing mob who 've set themselves up to help people bring their failing outsourced projects back and are getting a fair bit of work through it.To be honest , the quality of code I 'm seeing is easily the worst I 've ever seen and that includes half-assed open source projects .
Whether that 's because it 's just " sweatshop code " as one client put it or they are attempting to write super advanced AI code generators and using them to generate the code...and failing miserably , I do n't know .
But it 's terrible .
From the complete lack of imagination and forward thinking in design , right down to the god awful highly inconsistently cased variable names.Remember this is * three * different projects from three different Indian companies theoretically written by three different sets of programmers .
The code all looks and feels the same , which leads me to believe there 's something going on industry wide over there .
What that is I have no idea but they need to fix it quick smart as the industry as a whole is getting a bit of a reputation.What I do know is people are willing to pay much more once they 've tried outsourcing and failed.Those that do n't go out of business in the mean time that is .
( Yes I 'm sure there 's some top quality code coming out of India , I doubt most of it is written by the sorts of companies in this articlee ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I posted this before and I'll post it again.So far in the last 12 months I've had three side projects that projects that were outsourced but for whatever reason such a mess was made of them that the clients have brought them to us to fix at a higher than normal rate.My employer's now collaborating with an "reverse" outsourcing mob who've set themselves up to help people bring their failing outsourced projects back and are getting a fair bit of work through it.To be honest, the quality of code I'm seeing is easily the worst I've ever seen and that includes half-assed open source projects.
Whether that's because it's just "sweatshop code" as one client put it or they are attempting to write super advanced AI code generators and using them to generate the code...and failing miserably, I don't know.
But it's terrible.
From the complete lack of imagination and forward thinking in design, right down to the god awful highly inconsistently cased variable names.Remember this is *three* different projects from three different Indian companies theoretically written by three different sets of programmers.
The code all looks and feels the same, which leads me to believe there's something going on industry wide over there.
What that is I have no idea but they need to fix it quick smart as the industry as a whole is getting a bit of a reputation.What I do know is people are willing to pay much more once they've tried outsourcing and failed.Those that don't go out of business in the mean time that is.
(Yes I'm sure there's some top quality code coming out of India, I doubt most of it is written by the sorts of companies in this articlee).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417415</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418977</id>
	<title>Re:If Americans are unemployable....</title>
	<author>mcvos</author>
	<datestamp>1245668580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If Americans are unemployable then why are they the ones paying the Indians to do the job?</p></div><p>Because Americans are willing to spend money to get the job done. Although not enough to hire Americans to do the job.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>The money is coming from somewhere,</p></div><p>China.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>and to make others do the work for you takes some brains.</p></div><p>Or money.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>What this guy doesn't answer is why is it that when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that's stateside?</p></div><p>I think when you have to review any code that's been written by another company in another office and generally just a bit too far out of your reach, you will notice too late that the code is crap. There are plenty of Americans and Europeans capable of writing crappy code, but Indians can do it much cheaper.</p><p>There are also plenty of highly capable Indians who write good code for complex projects, but they're not the ones sitting in India for a slave wage writing code for a distant company they've never heard of. They're sitting next to you in your US/EU office getting paid as much as you.</p><p>It's not because of Indians that outsourced code is crap, it's because of the distance and anonimity in how the process works, and the way programmers select themselves for various pay scales and work environments.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If Americans are unemployable then why are they the ones paying the Indians to do the job ? Because Americans are willing to spend money to get the job done .
Although not enough to hire Americans to do the job.The money is coming from somewhere,China.and to make others do the work for you takes some brains.Or money.What this guy does n't answer is why is it that when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs , short cuts , and shit that does n't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that 's stateside ? I think when you have to review any code that 's been written by another company in another office and generally just a bit too far out of your reach , you will notice too late that the code is crap .
There are plenty of Americans and Europeans capable of writing crappy code , but Indians can do it much cheaper.There are also plenty of highly capable Indians who write good code for complex projects , but they 're not the ones sitting in India for a slave wage writing code for a distant company they 've never heard of .
They 're sitting next to you in your US/EU office getting paid as much as you.It 's not because of Indians that outsourced code is crap , it 's because of the distance and anonimity in how the process works , and the way programmers select themselves for various pay scales and work environments .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If Americans are unemployable then why are they the ones paying the Indians to do the job?Because Americans are willing to spend money to get the job done.
Although not enough to hire Americans to do the job.The money is coming from somewhere,China.and to make others do the work for you takes some brains.Or money.What this guy doesn't answer is why is it that when I have to review code coming from India it is full of bugs, short cuts, and shit that doesn't make a damn bit of sense even to the Indian staff that's stateside?I think when you have to review any code that's been written by another company in another office and generally just a bit too far out of your reach, you will notice too late that the code is crap.
There are plenty of Americans and Europeans capable of writing crappy code, but Indians can do it much cheaper.There are also plenty of highly capable Indians who write good code for complex projects, but they're not the ones sitting in India for a slave wage writing code for a distant company they've never heard of.
They're sitting next to you in your US/EU office getting paid as much as you.It's not because of Indians that outsourced code is crap, it's because of the distance and anonimity in how the process works, and the way programmers select themselves for various pay scales and work environments.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417455</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425865</id>
	<title>rote drones</title>
	<author>NickGnome</author>
	<datestamp>1245698280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yep, US grads are not rote drones.  We're capable of dynamic problem solving, creativity, innovation.  Not to mention that many of the currently unemployed and under-employed US IT workers have been productive software developers for decades, and done everything from tech support to SQA to application architecture to performance bench-marking to data-base analysis and design to preparing proposals.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yep , US grads are not rote drones .
We 're capable of dynamic problem solving , creativity , innovation .
Not to mention that many of the currently unemployed and under-employed US IT workers have been productive software developers for decades , and done everything from tech support to SQA to application architecture to performance bench-marking to data-base analysis and design to preparing proposals .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yep, US grads are not rote drones.
We're capable of dynamic problem solving, creativity, innovation.
Not to mention that many of the currently unemployed and under-employed US IT workers have been productive software developers for decades, and done everything from tech support to SQA to application architecture to performance bench-marking to data-base analysis and design to preparing proposals.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425891</id>
	<title>Jackass</title>
	<author>onescomplement</author>
	<datestamp>1245698340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What a jackass.  I've dealt with folks like him and the best thing I can possibly say is he's a slaver.  It's likely his company takes passports away from outsourced individuals and thinks fear is the best management technique.  They deliver adequate product against Moore's Law and think that's that's intelligence.  Listen up, mister idiot.  We invented most of the tools you rely on to drive your Dilbertspace.  You've pissed me off enough to think about a tool that will replace you.  You are a fly waiting for the windshield to come.</htmltext>
<tokenext>What a jackass .
I 've dealt with folks like him and the best thing I can possibly say is he 's a slaver .
It 's likely his company takes passports away from outsourced individuals and thinks fear is the best management technique .
They deliver adequate product against Moore 's Law and think that 's that 's intelligence .
Listen up , mister idiot .
We invented most of the tools you rely on to drive your Dilbertspace .
You 've pissed me off enough to think about a tool that will replace you .
You are a fly waiting for the windshield to come .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What a jackass.
I've dealt with folks like him and the best thing I can possibly say is he's a slaver.
It's likely his company takes passports away from outsourced individuals and thinks fear is the best management technique.
They deliver adequate product against Moore's Law and think that's that's intelligence.
Listen up, mister idiot.
We invented most of the tools you rely on to drive your Dilbertspace.
You've pissed me off enough to think about a tool that will replace you.
You are a fly waiting for the windshield to come.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28438223</id>
	<title>Re:What a crock of shit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245768900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On the other hand, if you are being paid very poor wages and being forced to work long hours just to get by, what is your incentive to write quality code?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On the other hand , if you are being paid very poor wages and being forced to work long hours just to get by , what is your incentive to write quality code ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On the other hand, if you are being paid very poor wages and being forced to work long hours just to get by, what is your incentive to write quality code?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417661</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28425249</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245696060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I use Ubuntu with Firefox with Noscript (enable Slashdot.org and fsdn.com) and it loads with no trouble. And this is a fairly low end PC although it does have 1 GB of memory. Maybe you should try a better O/S?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I use Ubuntu with Firefox with Noscript ( enable Slashdot.org and fsdn.com ) and it loads with no trouble .
And this is a fairly low end PC although it does have 1 GB of memory .
Maybe you should try a better O/S ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I use Ubuntu with Firefox with Noscript (enable Slashdot.org and fsdn.com) and it loads with no trouble.
And this is a fairly low end PC although it does have 1 GB of memory.
Maybe you should try a better O/S?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419487</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28428965</id>
	<title>Re:Move Microsoft to India</title>
	<author>zildgulf</author>
	<datestamp>1245665280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't mind immigrants, I object to the H1B visa program making immigrants "non-immigrants".  Real immigrants are legal, they tend to be motivated to succeed in America, and have made innumerable contributions to America.<br> <br>H1B visa holders can only stay in America a short time and many of them do "drone" work for insane work hours.  They could be brilliant or dull but the fact is that our companies are using them as disposable employees.<br> <br>We should trash that program and setup a longer term immigration program where they have to choose leaving, becoming a citizen, or becoming a permanent alien resident.  Then they would have more of a chance to contribute and a chance of receiving a fair wage.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't mind immigrants , I object to the H1B visa program making immigrants " non-immigrants " .
Real immigrants are legal , they tend to be motivated to succeed in America , and have made innumerable contributions to America .
H1B visa holders can only stay in America a short time and many of them do " drone " work for insane work hours .
They could be brilliant or dull but the fact is that our companies are using them as disposable employees .
We should trash that program and setup a longer term immigration program where they have to choose leaving , becoming a citizen , or becoming a permanent alien resident .
Then they would have more of a chance to contribute and a chance of receiving a fair wage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't mind immigrants, I object to the H1B visa program making immigrants "non-immigrants".
Real immigrants are legal, they tend to be motivated to succeed in America, and have made innumerable contributions to America.
H1B visa holders can only stay in America a short time and many of them do "drone" work for insane work hours.
They could be brilliant or dull but the fact is that our companies are using them as disposable employees.
We should trash that program and setup a longer term immigration program where they have to choose leaving, becoming a citizen, or becoming a permanent alien resident.
Then they would have more of a chance to contribute and a chance of receiving a fair wage.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28418517</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28420333</id>
	<title>In Soviet America</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245678780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Paki employs YOU</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Paki employs YOU</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Paki employs YOU</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417697</id>
	<title>Re:outsourcing and unemployment</title>
	<author>LKM</author>
	<datestamp>1245613740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Presumable, the idea is that there's not enough local talent to start a business or a local studio. It's possible, I guess; it seems that currently, there are not enough well-trained software engineers, and the way it is going, this problem may actually yet become worse.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Presumable , the idea is that there 's not enough local talent to start a business or a local studio .
It 's possible , I guess ; it seems that currently , there are not enough well-trained software engineers , and the way it is going , this problem may actually yet become worse .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Presumable, the idea is that there's not enough local talent to start a business or a local studio.
It's possible, I guess; it seems that currently, there are not enough well-trained software engineers, and the way it is going, this problem may actually yet become worse.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417387</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28419863</id>
	<title>Lost in Translation</title>
	<author>rob\_benson</author>
	<datestamp>1245675660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>By "Boring details" I assume he means the ability to follow a support script verbatim long after it has become amazingly obvious that it does not apply to the problem that needs to be solved.</htmltext>
<tokenext>By " Boring details " I assume he means the ability to follow a support script verbatim long after it has become amazingly obvious that it does not apply to the problem that needs to be solved .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>By "Boring details" I assume he means the ability to follow a support script verbatim long after it has become amazingly obvious that it does not apply to the problem that needs to be solved.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_22_0019233.28417567</id>
	<title>Americans are unemployable...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245612600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>when you pay them $15/hr and expect them to be good at what they do.</htmltext>
<tokenext>when you pay them $ 15/hr and expect them to be good at what they do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>when you pay them $15/hr and expect them to be good at what they do.</sentencetext>
</comment>
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