<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_06_19_0626204</id>
	<title>Censored Video Game Content Stifles Artistry</title>
	<author>Soulskill</author>
	<datestamp>1245418080000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>AnInkle writes <i>"The question of <a href="//games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/09/1857214&amp;tid=10">whether modern video games represent art</a> and the persistent attempts to <a href="http://games.slashdot.org/story/09/05/11/164250/On-the-Advent-of-Controversial-Video-Games?art\_pos=3">censor controversial content</a> in games have been <a href="http://games.slashdot.org/story/08/09/30/0218209/Systems-As-Art-In-Games?art\_pos=10">discussed here</a> at length. Now, a blogger at The Tech Report makes the case that censorship of violent and sexual images and themes in video games is precisely what <a href="http://techreport.com/articles.x/17048">inhibits video games from maturing artistically</a> beyond a nascent form. He cites a historical comparison between video game and film production, as well as geo-cultural comparisons of film production in the US vs. Europe and of video game development in the US vs. Japan. Are these comparisons apt and the assertions valid, or might the embrace of video games as a legitimate art form be limited for entirely different reasons?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>AnInkle writes " The question of whether modern video games represent art and the persistent attempts to censor controversial content in games have been discussed here at length .
Now , a blogger at The Tech Report makes the case that censorship of violent and sexual images and themes in video games is precisely what inhibits video games from maturing artistically beyond a nascent form .
He cites a historical comparison between video game and film production , as well as geo-cultural comparisons of film production in the US vs. Europe and of video game development in the US vs. Japan. Are these comparisons apt and the assertions valid , or might the embrace of video games as a legitimate art form be limited for entirely different reasons ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>AnInkle writes "The question of whether modern video games represent art and the persistent attempts to censor controversial content in games have been discussed here at length.
Now, a blogger at The Tech Report makes the case that censorship of violent and sexual images and themes in video games is precisely what inhibits video games from maturing artistically beyond a nascent form.
He cites a historical comparison between video game and film production, as well as geo-cultural comparisons of film production in the US vs. Europe and of video game development in the US vs. Japan. Are these comparisons apt and the assertions valid, or might the embrace of video games as a legitimate art form be limited for entirely different reasons?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391217</id>
	<title>Re:Nascence</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1245431760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I can sit down with pen and paper and make a caveman drawing but I cannot sit down at my computer and make a Contra clone for an NES emulator? Why? Because the tools that represent pen and paper in this analogy are not open to me.</i></p><p>One of my instructors said "a good artists can make good art with nothing more than mud and a stick." Perhaps you're using the wrong OS, there are tons of free tools out there. If you're good enough, you can be a blacksmith and create your own tools.</p><p>Of course, the main tool needed for any artistic endeavor is inside your skull. If you lack creativity, you're not going to make good art.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I can sit down with pen and paper and make a caveman drawing but I can not sit down at my computer and make a Contra clone for an NES emulator ?
Why ? Because the tools that represent pen and paper in this analogy are not open to me.One of my instructors said " a good artists can make good art with nothing more than mud and a stick .
" Perhaps you 're using the wrong OS , there are tons of free tools out there .
If you 're good enough , you can be a blacksmith and create your own tools.Of course , the main tool needed for any artistic endeavor is inside your skull .
If you lack creativity , you 're not going to make good art .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can sit down with pen and paper and make a caveman drawing but I cannot sit down at my computer and make a Contra clone for an NES emulator?
Why? Because the tools that represent pen and paper in this analogy are not open to me.One of my instructors said "a good artists can make good art with nothing more than mud and a stick.
" Perhaps you're using the wrong OS, there are tons of free tools out there.
If you're good enough, you can be a blacksmith and create your own tools.Of course, the main tool needed for any artistic endeavor is inside your skull.
If you lack creativity, you're not going to make good art.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389053</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389303</id>
	<title>Tired of these stupid debates</title>
	<author>Atrox666</author>
	<datestamp>1245423660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Does anyone remember(presuming you were born) when the big debate was not if video games were art but if anything that was done on a computer could be called art?<br>Let's stop having these debates and giving the morons who will never understand a voice.<br>They are the same people who claimed that expressionism wasn't art, surrealism wasn't art, pop art wasn't art. They are a pox on humanity.</p><p>"not being able to create art<br>they will not understand art<br>they will consider their failure as creators<br>only as a failure of the world"<br>
&nbsp; <a href="http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-genius-of-the-crowd/" title="poemhunter.com">http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-genius-of-the-crowd/</a> [poemhunter.com]<br>The Genius of the Crowd - Charles Bukowski</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Does anyone remember ( presuming you were born ) when the big debate was not if video games were art but if anything that was done on a computer could be called art ? Let 's stop having these debates and giving the morons who will never understand a voice.They are the same people who claimed that expressionism was n't art , surrealism was n't art , pop art was n't art .
They are a pox on humanity .
" not being able to create artthey will not understand artthey will consider their failure as creatorsonly as a failure of the world "   http : //www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-genius-of-the-crowd/ [ poemhunter.com ] The Genius of the Crowd - Charles Bukowski</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does anyone remember(presuming you were born) when the big debate was not if video games were art but if anything that was done on a computer could be called art?Let's stop having these debates and giving the morons who will never understand a voice.They are the same people who claimed that expressionism wasn't art, surrealism wasn't art, pop art wasn't art.
They are a pox on humanity.
"not being able to create artthey will not understand artthey will consider their failure as creatorsonly as a failure of the world"
  http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-genius-of-the-crowd/ [poemhunter.com]The Genius of the Crowd - Charles Bukowski</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390177</id>
	<title>Re:Really? You can't express yourself?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245427200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What viewpoints cannot be expressed because of this repressive censorship we now have?</p></div><p>Art isn't necessarily about which viewpoint is expressed, but <b>how</b> it is expressed.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What viewpoints can not be expressed because of this repressive censorship we now have ? Art is n't necessarily about which viewpoint is expressed , but how it is expressed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What viewpoints cannot be expressed because of this repressive censorship we now have?Art isn't necessarily about which viewpoint is expressed, but how it is expressed.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389147</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390415</id>
	<title>Wah Wah. Poor "artists"</title>
	<author>sunking2</author>
	<datestamp>1245428160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you don't want to be stifled do what every other fringe artist does, open your own studio, peddle your stuff on the web, etc. There are plenty of outlets available for any artist to produce whatever they want. Of course the difference here is that the money stream it produces might not be there. Oh well, its all about the art anyway, right?</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you do n't want to be stifled do what every other fringe artist does , open your own studio , peddle your stuff on the web , etc .
There are plenty of outlets available for any artist to produce whatever they want .
Of course the difference here is that the money stream it produces might not be there .
Oh well , its all about the art anyway , right ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you don't want to be stifled do what every other fringe artist does, open your own studio, peddle your stuff on the web, etc.
There are plenty of outlets available for any artist to produce whatever they want.
Of course the difference here is that the money stream it produces might not be there.
Oh well, its all about the art anyway, right?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389589</id>
	<title>Re:New medium</title>
	<author>jandersen</author>
	<datestamp>1245424800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't know about that. To me art is - or ought to be - something one or two steps up from routine artisanship, sonething that is somehow above and beyond the ordinary. In most cases a video game doesn't qualify as art any more than the latest album by any of the trivial boy-bands, however well-crafted it may be.</p><p>The problem I see with modern games is not that they are too radical, but that they are too trivial and that they trivialise subjects like war, violence and suffering. A lot of games are in that respect nothing more than a kind of "pornography" and utterly insignificant. The first version of Doom may have broken some boundaries and counted as "art", despite its clumsy graphics, but I think the Nth remake of the same theme in stunningly crisp detail and completely naturalistic movements is simply nothing more than cheap and trivial pornography; there is certainly nothing "art" about it any more.</p><p>People are a lot more openminded than you give them credit for - which is why there are so many people who are willing to go to Tate Modern in London. I'm not saying whether there should be censorship on video games or not, only that if we're talking art, there is some way to go still.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know about that .
To me art is - or ought to be - something one or two steps up from routine artisanship , sonething that is somehow above and beyond the ordinary .
In most cases a video game does n't qualify as art any more than the latest album by any of the trivial boy-bands , however well-crafted it may be.The problem I see with modern games is not that they are too radical , but that they are too trivial and that they trivialise subjects like war , violence and suffering .
A lot of games are in that respect nothing more than a kind of " pornography " and utterly insignificant .
The first version of Doom may have broken some boundaries and counted as " art " , despite its clumsy graphics , but I think the Nth remake of the same theme in stunningly crisp detail and completely naturalistic movements is simply nothing more than cheap and trivial pornography ; there is certainly nothing " art " about it any more.People are a lot more openminded than you give them credit for - which is why there are so many people who are willing to go to Tate Modern in London .
I 'm not saying whether there should be censorship on video games or not , only that if we 're talking art , there is some way to go still .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know about that.
To me art is - or ought to be - something one or two steps up from routine artisanship, sonething that is somehow above and beyond the ordinary.
In most cases a video game doesn't qualify as art any more than the latest album by any of the trivial boy-bands, however well-crafted it may be.The problem I see with modern games is not that they are too radical, but that they are too trivial and that they trivialise subjects like war, violence and suffering.
A lot of games are in that respect nothing more than a kind of "pornography" and utterly insignificant.
The first version of Doom may have broken some boundaries and counted as "art", despite its clumsy graphics, but I think the Nth remake of the same theme in stunningly crisp detail and completely naturalistic movements is simply nothing more than cheap and trivial pornography; there is certainly nothing "art" about it any more.People are a lot more openminded than you give them credit for - which is why there are so many people who are willing to go to Tate Modern in London.
I'm not saying whether there should be censorship on video games or not, only that if we're talking art, there is some way to go still.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388939</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391069</id>
	<title>Banning the depiction of rape in Japanese games</title>
	<author>jellybear</author>
	<datestamp>1245431100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't forget the Japanese EOCS banning the depiction of rape in Japanese video games. The suppression of art is going on there as well as here.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't forget the Japanese EOCS banning the depiction of rape in Japanese video games .
The suppression of art is going on there as well as here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't forget the Japanese EOCS banning the depiction of rape in Japanese video games.
The suppression of art is going on there as well as here.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28397001</id>
	<title>Re:8==U=N=C=E=NS=O=R=E=D==D ~~-\_</title>
	<author>Omestes</author>
	<datestamp>1245411900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>flamebait, really?  Could someone please explain this to me?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>flamebait , really ?
Could someone please explain this to me ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>flamebait, really?
Could someone please explain this to me?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28394273</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390279</id>
	<title>Re:Bunk</title>
	<author>Tharsman</author>
	<datestamp>1245427620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This.

As some one that went to art school I must say that any "artist" (in any branch) that must resort to explicit content to "evolve" or make "controversial" pieces that "impact" the viewer deserves to be censored out of the field.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This .
As some one that went to art school I must say that any " artist " ( in any branch ) that must resort to explicit content to " evolve " or make " controversial " pieces that " impact " the viewer deserves to be censored out of the field .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This.
As some one that went to art school I must say that any "artist" (in any branch) that must resort to explicit content to "evolve" or make "controversial" pieces that "impact" the viewer deserves to be censored out of the field.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388991</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391391</id>
	<title>Blogger risks falling off his high horse.</title>
	<author>BaronHethorSamedi</author>
	<datestamp>1245432420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>[C]ensorship of violent and sexual images and themes in video games is precisely what inhibits video games from maturing artistically beyond a nascent form.</p></div><p>Right.  Because no great art has ever been created under a regime that censors violent and sexual imagery.<br>
<br>
Theses like these are nonsense.  Yes, a lot of great art bends social rules.  Shocking as it may seem, though, <b>it is possible to create magnificent works of art without pushing social envelopes.</b> A lot of great art came out of patronage systems and commissions, where it had to be actively sponsored by a ruling elite.  It was art by rules, and much of it was magnificent. (Mozart, anyone?)<br>
<br>
I've defended the artistic possibilities of games before, as have most people, but the Tech Report article paints with an awfully broad brush.  Not all games are art, nor are they intended to be.  Of the games that employ violent and/or sexual imagery, I'd venture to say that only a tiny fraction of them are doing it for artistic reasons.  Mostly, they're trying to sell copies of otherwise fairly inferior titles to a male audience. (I'm not being snobbish here--I find a lot of that imagery as appealing as the next male, but most of it is straight-up marketing, and doesn't pretend to be art.) And plenty of games with real artistic value have managed just fine without any sex or violence at all.  While I don't think we should shy away from those themes when the project warrants them, I think ranting about the Hays Code in the era of Manhunt and Grand Theft Auto is ridiculous.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>[ C ] ensorship of violent and sexual images and themes in video games is precisely what inhibits video games from maturing artistically beyond a nascent form.Right .
Because no great art has ever been created under a regime that censors violent and sexual imagery .
Theses like these are nonsense .
Yes , a lot of great art bends social rules .
Shocking as it may seem , though , it is possible to create magnificent works of art without pushing social envelopes .
A lot of great art came out of patronage systems and commissions , where it had to be actively sponsored by a ruling elite .
It was art by rules , and much of it was magnificent .
( Mozart , anyone ?
) I 've defended the artistic possibilities of games before , as have most people , but the Tech Report article paints with an awfully broad brush .
Not all games are art , nor are they intended to be .
Of the games that employ violent and/or sexual imagery , I 'd venture to say that only a tiny fraction of them are doing it for artistic reasons .
Mostly , they 're trying to sell copies of otherwise fairly inferior titles to a male audience .
( I 'm not being snobbish here--I find a lot of that imagery as appealing as the next male , but most of it is straight-up marketing , and does n't pretend to be art .
) And plenty of games with real artistic value have managed just fine without any sex or violence at all .
While I do n't think we should shy away from those themes when the project warrants them , I think ranting about the Hays Code in the era of Manhunt and Grand Theft Auto is ridiculous .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>[C]ensorship of violent and sexual images and themes in video games is precisely what inhibits video games from maturing artistically beyond a nascent form.Right.
Because no great art has ever been created under a regime that censors violent and sexual imagery.
Theses like these are nonsense.
Yes, a lot of great art bends social rules.
Shocking as it may seem, though, it is possible to create magnificent works of art without pushing social envelopes.
A lot of great art came out of patronage systems and commissions, where it had to be actively sponsored by a ruling elite.
It was art by rules, and much of it was magnificent.
(Mozart, anyone?
)

I've defended the artistic possibilities of games before, as have most people, but the Tech Report article paints with an awfully broad brush.
Not all games are art, nor are they intended to be.
Of the games that employ violent and/or sexual imagery, I'd venture to say that only a tiny fraction of them are doing it for artistic reasons.
Mostly, they're trying to sell copies of otherwise fairly inferior titles to a male audience.
(I'm not being snobbish here--I find a lot of that imagery as appealing as the next male, but most of it is straight-up marketing, and doesn't pretend to be art.
) And plenty of games with real artistic value have managed just fine without any sex or violence at all.
While I don't think we should shy away from those themes when the project warrants them, I think ranting about the Hays Code in the era of Manhunt and Grand Theft Auto is ridiculous.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28393001</id>
	<title>Re:New medium</title>
	<author>shadowrat</author>
	<datestamp>1245439380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Agreed. I'd say the fact that this topic always generates such heated discussions is evidence that games ARE art.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed .
I 'd say the fact that this topic always generates such heated discussions is evidence that games ARE art .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed.
I'd say the fact that this topic always generates such heated discussions is evidence that games ARE art.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388939</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28395311</id>
	<title>TOWER DEFENSE</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245404100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>" I believe that games require much more teamwork and collaboration. [...] This prevents the explosion of games and relegates us to a set number right now."</p><p>I believe tower defense is a new genre created by the little guys (those who are not in a big company ). I&#194;ve played them most in flash games and mobile phones</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" I believe that games require much more teamwork and collaboration .
[ ... ] This prevents the explosion of games and relegates us to a set number right now .
" I believe tower defense is a new genre created by the little guys ( those who are not in a big company ) .
I   ve played them most in flash games and mobile phones</tokentext>
<sentencetext>" I believe that games require much more teamwork and collaboration.
[...] This prevents the explosion of games and relegates us to a set number right now.
"I believe tower defense is a new genre created by the little guys (those who are not in a big company ).
IÂve played them most in flash games and mobile phones</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389053</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390191</id>
	<title>Let's blame censorship for our inadequacies!</title>
	<author>ConceptJunkie</author>
	<datestamp>1245427260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Now, a blogger at The Tech Report makes the case that censorship of violent and sexual images and themes in video games is precisely what inhibits video games from maturing artistically beyond a nascent form.</i></p><p>Because Hollywood has proved it's impossible to be creative without the of crutch showing boobies and gushing head wounds.</p><p>You know what's sad?  The fact that there is very little creativity in the game market, and censorship has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.  But go on and continue believing that the Man is keeping you down by not letting you exercise your most base urges and calling it "creativity".  Is there room for \_good\_ games that might not be appropriate for all audiences?  Of course.  The example I would suggest is "System Shock" and its sequel.  I'm sure there are many others, but I am also they are still uncommon, among a sea of mediocrity, just like (surprise! surprise!) games that are suitable for all ages.</p><p>Is censorship really stifling creativity?  That's complete nonsense.  If you can't do something creative without having to resort to sex and violence and other topics unsuitable for a general audience, then guess what?  You're not going to be creative with them either... you'll just sell more because sex and violence, etc, sell on their own.  Again, look at Hollywood.  Censorship may stifle specific projects that may or may not have merit, but suggesting it's stifling creativity in general is an extraordinarily lame assertion.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Now , a blogger at The Tech Report makes the case that censorship of violent and sexual images and themes in video games is precisely what inhibits video games from maturing artistically beyond a nascent form.Because Hollywood has proved it 's impossible to be creative without the of crutch showing boobies and gushing head wounds.You know what 's sad ?
The fact that there is very little creativity in the game market , and censorship has absolutely NOTHING to do with it .
But go on and continue believing that the Man is keeping you down by not letting you exercise your most base urges and calling it " creativity " .
Is there room for \ _good \ _ games that might not be appropriate for all audiences ?
Of course .
The example I would suggest is " System Shock " and its sequel .
I 'm sure there are many others , but I am also they are still uncommon , among a sea of mediocrity , just like ( surprise !
surprise ! ) games that are suitable for all ages.Is censorship really stifling creativity ?
That 's complete nonsense .
If you ca n't do something creative without having to resort to sex and violence and other topics unsuitable for a general audience , then guess what ?
You 're not going to be creative with them either... you 'll just sell more because sex and violence , etc , sell on their own .
Again , look at Hollywood .
Censorship may stifle specific projects that may or may not have merit , but suggesting it 's stifling creativity in general is an extraordinarily lame assertion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now, a blogger at The Tech Report makes the case that censorship of violent and sexual images and themes in video games is precisely what inhibits video games from maturing artistically beyond a nascent form.Because Hollywood has proved it's impossible to be creative without the of crutch showing boobies and gushing head wounds.You know what's sad?
The fact that there is very little creativity in the game market, and censorship has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.
But go on and continue believing that the Man is keeping you down by not letting you exercise your most base urges and calling it "creativity".
Is there room for \_good\_ games that might not be appropriate for all audiences?
Of course.
The example I would suggest is "System Shock" and its sequel.
I'm sure there are many others, but I am also they are still uncommon, among a sea of mediocrity, just like (surprise!
surprise!) games that are suitable for all ages.Is censorship really stifling creativity?
That's complete nonsense.
If you can't do something creative without having to resort to sex and violence and other topics unsuitable for a general audience, then guess what?
You're not going to be creative with them either... you'll just sell more because sex and violence, etc, sell on their own.
Again, look at Hollywood.
Censorship may stifle specific projects that may or may not have merit, but suggesting it's stifling creativity in general is an extraordinarily lame assertion.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391249</id>
	<title>Re:Nascence</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245431820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What decade are you living in, old chap?</p><p>The tools are right there, and a game can be produced by a single person, including content, if the person sets their sights within their limits.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What decade are you living in , old chap ? The tools are right there , and a game can be produced by a single person , including content , if the person sets their sights within their limits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What decade are you living in, old chap?The tools are right there, and a game can be produced by a single person, including content, if the person sets their sights within their limits.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389053</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390985</id>
	<title>Re:New medium</title>
	<author>Wain13001</author>
	<datestamp>1245430740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>really scary considering how many ppl took their children to see public hangings but didn't want them to take one step into the theater.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>really scary considering how many ppl took their children to see public hangings but did n't want them to take one step into the theater .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>really scary considering how many ppl took their children to see public hangings but didn't want them to take one step into the theater.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388939</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389521</id>
	<title>Now that I think about it</title>
	<author>overkill1024</author>
	<datestamp>1245424560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The majority of my video game 'art' comes from Japan.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The majority of my video game 'art ' comes from Japan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The majority of my video game 'art' comes from Japan.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388939</id>
	<title>New medium</title>
	<author>Drakkenmensch</author>
	<datestamp>1245422220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's a well known fact that every new media form is plagued by censorship and "not art!" protest as it has not had a chance to establish itself past the resistance of the other art forms not being willing to let the new guy in town into their club. I'm pretty sure that cave people protested that hunting scribbles on cave walls were deemed "too violent to let the young ones see".</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's a well known fact that every new media form is plagued by censorship and " not art !
" protest as it has not had a chance to establish itself past the resistance of the other art forms not being willing to let the new guy in town into their club .
I 'm pretty sure that cave people protested that hunting scribbles on cave walls were deemed " too violent to let the young ones see " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's a well known fact that every new media form is plagued by censorship and "not art!
" protest as it has not had a chance to establish itself past the resistance of the other art forms not being willing to let the new guy in town into their club.
I'm pretty sure that cave people protested that hunting scribbles on cave walls were deemed "too violent to let the young ones see".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389251</id>
	<title>Re:Why is "art" always sex and violence?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245423360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why nude acts are considered art?<br>Why sex and violence appears in written pieces of art?</p><p>Games will be mature when they can cover ALL themes other mature fields of art are allowed to cover.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why nude acts are considered art ? Why sex and violence appears in written pieces of art ? Games will be mature when they can cover ALL themes other mature fields of art are allowed to cover .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why nude acts are considered art?Why sex and violence appears in written pieces of art?Games will be mature when they can cover ALL themes other mature fields of art are allowed to cover.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389019</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389335</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245423780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>So technicians can't be artists? WTF?</htmltext>
<tokenext>So technicians ca n't be artists ?
WTF ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So technicians can't be artists?
WTF?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388923</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390801</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245429960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I thought fractals were art. A game is nothing more than a visual interpretation of mathematical equations and considering that they're using pixels to generate worlds as close to the real world as possible, I don't see why that wouldn't count as art. Computer programmers use pixels just like painters use paint or crayons - but we have the unfair advantage of interacting with the viewer.<br>Hell, we even consider <a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=pi+t-shirt" title="google.com" rel="nofollow">pi to be art</a> [google.com] these days and yet these guys fail to understand the beauty of games where you can live in a whole world of your own for a few minutes or hours. They should be shot.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I thought fractals were art .
A game is nothing more than a visual interpretation of mathematical equations and considering that they 're using pixels to generate worlds as close to the real world as possible , I do n't see why that would n't count as art .
Computer programmers use pixels just like painters use paint or crayons - but we have the unfair advantage of interacting with the viewer.Hell , we even consider pi to be art [ google.com ] these days and yet these guys fail to understand the beauty of games where you can live in a whole world of your own for a few minutes or hours .
They should be shot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I thought fractals were art.
A game is nothing more than a visual interpretation of mathematical equations and considering that they're using pixels to generate worlds as close to the real world as possible, I don't see why that wouldn't count as art.
Computer programmers use pixels just like painters use paint or crayons - but we have the unfair advantage of interacting with the viewer.Hell, we even consider pi to be art [google.com] these days and yet these guys fail to understand the beauty of games where you can live in a whole world of your own for a few minutes or hours.
They should be shot.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389139</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389921</id>
	<title>Re:Nascence</title>
	<author>Fantom42</author>
	<datestamp>1245426120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>In short, I feel that the difficulty in anyone picking up something to create a game inhibits the artistic expression. No one can arise by their own will in this field like you could in art or film.</p></div></blockquote><p>Oversimplified.  Have you ever tried to put on a musical?  My friends and I did it in 24 hours.  Let me tell you, it was a group effort, and many of the difficulties you discuss as being unique to game development apply to any cross-disciplinary art.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In short , I feel that the difficulty in anyone picking up something to create a game inhibits the artistic expression .
No one can arise by their own will in this field like you could in art or film.Oversimplified .
Have you ever tried to put on a musical ?
My friends and I did it in 24 hours .
Let me tell you , it was a group effort , and many of the difficulties you discuss as being unique to game development apply to any cross-disciplinary art .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In short, I feel that the difficulty in anyone picking up something to create a game inhibits the artistic expression.
No one can arise by their own will in this field like you could in art or film.Oversimplified.
Have you ever tried to put on a musical?
My friends and I did it in 24 hours.
Let me tell you, it was a group effort, and many of the difficulties you discuss as being unique to game development apply to any cross-disciplinary art.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389053</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391131</id>
	<title>Re:Nascence</title>
	<author>Dr. Impossible</author>
	<datestamp>1245431400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Films do but it is often to create a vision of a director or writer. I believe that games require much more teamwork and collaboration. Your texture folks have to be on board for the feel, your 3D engine has to be tuned to work with your feel, your dialogue has to match the feel, the coordination seems endless to me for modern games. This prevents the explosion of games and relegates us to a set number right now. I am not sure this will ever change.</p></div></blockquote><p>Movies are no different. The script has to be written, the sets and costumes have to be designed, the lighting has to be adjusted, the shots have to be composed, the sound has to be captured, the effects must be created and the actors must work with the director to reach the desired outcome.</p><p>The process of creating a game can easily be subjected to the creative vision of a single person. The reason why we don't have games that are on par with great movies is because there aren't people who have the ability to make it happen.</p><blockquote><div><p>I argue that games are art but they do hold different complexities and properties from other traditional arts. It may be a long time before they are recognized in the general public as such since the general public may always be removed from being able to create their own games with open tools.</p></div></blockquote><p>The general public doesn't make movies either.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Films do but it is often to create a vision of a director or writer .
I believe that games require much more teamwork and collaboration .
Your texture folks have to be on board for the feel , your 3D engine has to be tuned to work with your feel , your dialogue has to match the feel , the coordination seems endless to me for modern games .
This prevents the explosion of games and relegates us to a set number right now .
I am not sure this will ever change.Movies are no different .
The script has to be written , the sets and costumes have to be designed , the lighting has to be adjusted , the shots have to be composed , the sound has to be captured , the effects must be created and the actors must work with the director to reach the desired outcome.The process of creating a game can easily be subjected to the creative vision of a single person .
The reason why we do n't have games that are on par with great movies is because there are n't people who have the ability to make it happen.I argue that games are art but they do hold different complexities and properties from other traditional arts .
It may be a long time before they are recognized in the general public as such since the general public may always be removed from being able to create their own games with open tools.The general public does n't make movies either .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Films do but it is often to create a vision of a director or writer.
I believe that games require much more teamwork and collaboration.
Your texture folks have to be on board for the feel, your 3D engine has to be tuned to work with your feel, your dialogue has to match the feel, the coordination seems endless to me for modern games.
This prevents the explosion of games and relegates us to a set number right now.
I am not sure this will ever change.Movies are no different.
The script has to be written, the sets and costumes have to be designed, the lighting has to be adjusted, the shots have to be composed, the sound has to be captured, the effects must be created and the actors must work with the director to reach the desired outcome.The process of creating a game can easily be subjected to the creative vision of a single person.
The reason why we don't have games that are on par with great movies is because there aren't people who have the ability to make it happen.I argue that games are art but they do hold different complexities and properties from other traditional arts.
It may be a long time before they are recognized in the general public as such since the general public may always be removed from being able to create their own games with open tools.The general public doesn't make movies either.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389053</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389053</id>
	<title>Nascence</title>
	<author>eldavojohn</author>
	<datestamp>1245422640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I like using this word to describe it and I agree with this piece for the most part.  Although I would like to point out some differences with photography and video.  <br> <br>

8-bit games are the cavemen drawings of what games will become.  At the time of their inception they were probably revered above many other things by those who viewed them.  Today they are crude and easily reproduced by a two year old.  This will not be the case with games.  And why not?  <br> <br>

I can sit down with pen and paper and make a caveman drawing but I cannot sit down at my computer and make a Contra clone for an NES emulator?  Why?  Because the tools that represent pen and paper in this analogy are not open to me.  They are closed and guarded by law and by obfuscation.  I can look at a Picasso and begin to imitate the colors and angles and feel.  I can play a Playstation One game but not imitate.  I am not arguing that these methods should be open and available to all, I am just pointing out that this inhibits the everyone-can-do-what-they-want factor of most art mediums.  It's difficult for me to acquire oils and pastels but it is near impossible for me to acquire a Neo Geo developer's license and kit.  <br> <br>

In part this is due simply to complexity.  Which brings me to my next point: games require a team.  <br> <br>

Painting, drawing, photographing do not necessarily require a team.  Films do but it is often to create a vision of a director or writer.  I believe that games require much more teamwork and collaboration.  Your texture folks have to be on board for the feel, your 3D engine has to be tuned to work with your feel, your dialogue has to match the feel, the coordination seems endless to me for modern games.  This prevents the explosion of games and relegates us to a set number right now.  I am not sure this will ever change.  <br> <br>

In short, I feel that the difficulty in anyone picking up something to create a game inhibits the artistic expression.  No one can arise by their own will in this field like you could in art or film.  Furthermore, the idea of a lone genius revolutionizing or creating a movement is far more rare due to these inhibiting factors whereas that may more often happen in other arts.  <br> <br>

I argue that games <i>are</i> art but they do hold different complexities and properties from other traditional arts.  It may be a long time before they are recognized in the general public as such since the general public may always be removed from being able to create their own games with open tools.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I like using this word to describe it and I agree with this piece for the most part .
Although I would like to point out some differences with photography and video .
8-bit games are the cavemen drawings of what games will become .
At the time of their inception they were probably revered above many other things by those who viewed them .
Today they are crude and easily reproduced by a two year old .
This will not be the case with games .
And why not ?
I can sit down with pen and paper and make a caveman drawing but I can not sit down at my computer and make a Contra clone for an NES emulator ?
Why ? Because the tools that represent pen and paper in this analogy are not open to me .
They are closed and guarded by law and by obfuscation .
I can look at a Picasso and begin to imitate the colors and angles and feel .
I can play a Playstation One game but not imitate .
I am not arguing that these methods should be open and available to all , I am just pointing out that this inhibits the everyone-can-do-what-they-want factor of most art mediums .
It 's difficult for me to acquire oils and pastels but it is near impossible for me to acquire a Neo Geo developer 's license and kit .
In part this is due simply to complexity .
Which brings me to my next point : games require a team .
Painting , drawing , photographing do not necessarily require a team .
Films do but it is often to create a vision of a director or writer .
I believe that games require much more teamwork and collaboration .
Your texture folks have to be on board for the feel , your 3D engine has to be tuned to work with your feel , your dialogue has to match the feel , the coordination seems endless to me for modern games .
This prevents the explosion of games and relegates us to a set number right now .
I am not sure this will ever change .
In short , I feel that the difficulty in anyone picking up something to create a game inhibits the artistic expression .
No one can arise by their own will in this field like you could in art or film .
Furthermore , the idea of a lone genius revolutionizing or creating a movement is far more rare due to these inhibiting factors whereas that may more often happen in other arts .
I argue that games are art but they do hold different complexities and properties from other traditional arts .
It may be a long time before they are recognized in the general public as such since the general public may always be removed from being able to create their own games with open tools .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I like using this word to describe it and I agree with this piece for the most part.
Although I would like to point out some differences with photography and video.
8-bit games are the cavemen drawings of what games will become.
At the time of their inception they were probably revered above many other things by those who viewed them.
Today they are crude and easily reproduced by a two year old.
This will not be the case with games.
And why not?
I can sit down with pen and paper and make a caveman drawing but I cannot sit down at my computer and make a Contra clone for an NES emulator?
Why?  Because the tools that represent pen and paper in this analogy are not open to me.
They are closed and guarded by law and by obfuscation.
I can look at a Picasso and begin to imitate the colors and angles and feel.
I can play a Playstation One game but not imitate.
I am not arguing that these methods should be open and available to all, I am just pointing out that this inhibits the everyone-can-do-what-they-want factor of most art mediums.
It's difficult for me to acquire oils and pastels but it is near impossible for me to acquire a Neo Geo developer's license and kit.
In part this is due simply to complexity.
Which brings me to my next point: games require a team.
Painting, drawing, photographing do not necessarily require a team.
Films do but it is often to create a vision of a director or writer.
I believe that games require much more teamwork and collaboration.
Your texture folks have to be on board for the feel, your 3D engine has to be tuned to work with your feel, your dialogue has to match the feel, the coordination seems endless to me for modern games.
This prevents the explosion of games and relegates us to a set number right now.
I am not sure this will ever change.
In short, I feel that the difficulty in anyone picking up something to create a game inhibits the artistic expression.
No one can arise by their own will in this field like you could in art or film.
Furthermore, the idea of a lone genius revolutionizing or creating a movement is far more rare due to these inhibiting factors whereas that may more often happen in other arts.
I argue that games are art but they do hold different complexities and properties from other traditional arts.
It may be a long time before they are recognized in the general public as such since the general public may always be removed from being able to create their own games with open tools.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390241</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>grumbel</author>
	<datestamp>1245427500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>that most people who make video games are technicians rather than artists.</p></div><p>I kind of doubt it, think the real problem is simply that most people who makes video games these days are gamers and have been for all their life. Video games these days are way to much driven by other video games, instead of being driven by culture in the broader sense. Which is why you get a tons and tons of games with the same themes and gameplay elements, while hardly anybody ever tries anything outside of established video games conventions. Even the indie crowd doesn't help here, as half there stuff these days is just a 2D physics engine with some minimal art thrown around it.</p><p>I would like to see some more games that start out with a topic and then figure out a way to implement it as a game, instead of starting out with a video game genre and then trying to figure out which theme to apply to it.</p><p>As it is video games are still lightyears away from books and movies when it comes to the variety of topics they cover. It of course doesn't have to stay that way, but the way the industry works these days I have some doubt about any radical changes anytime soon.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>that most people who make video games are technicians rather than artists.I kind of doubt it , think the real problem is simply that most people who makes video games these days are gamers and have been for all their life .
Video games these days are way to much driven by other video games , instead of being driven by culture in the broader sense .
Which is why you get a tons and tons of games with the same themes and gameplay elements , while hardly anybody ever tries anything outside of established video games conventions .
Even the indie crowd does n't help here , as half there stuff these days is just a 2D physics engine with some minimal art thrown around it.I would like to see some more games that start out with a topic and then figure out a way to implement it as a game , instead of starting out with a video game genre and then trying to figure out which theme to apply to it.As it is video games are still lightyears away from books and movies when it comes to the variety of topics they cover .
It of course does n't have to stay that way , but the way the industry works these days I have some doubt about any radical changes anytime soon .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>that most people who make video games are technicians rather than artists.I kind of doubt it, think the real problem is simply that most people who makes video games these days are gamers and have been for all their life.
Video games these days are way to much driven by other video games, instead of being driven by culture in the broader sense.
Which is why you get a tons and tons of games with the same themes and gameplay elements, while hardly anybody ever tries anything outside of established video games conventions.
Even the indie crowd doesn't help here, as half there stuff these days is just a 2D physics engine with some minimal art thrown around it.I would like to see some more games that start out with a topic and then figure out a way to implement it as a game, instead of starting out with a video game genre and then trying to figure out which theme to apply to it.As it is video games are still lightyears away from books and movies when it comes to the variety of topics they cover.
It of course doesn't have to stay that way, but the way the industry works these days I have some doubt about any radical changes anytime soon.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388923</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389821</id>
	<title>Re:Bunk</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245425760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As far as the Hayes Code era and great movie production, I think that's more a case of 'in spite of," not "because of."</p><p>Though I agree with you to some extent: boobies and bullets offer an easy way to simulate Great Art without having to think too hard about it.  The same way free prose tends to spoodge all over the page in the name of free expression while the more structured iambic pentameter actually takes advantage of the form to overcome the restrictions and crystallize into something profound.</p><p>On the other hand, not every creative work needs to aspire to fulfill some kind of self-absorbed High Culture milieu.  Sometimes it's nice to play with boobies and bullets.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As far as the Hayes Code era and great movie production , I think that 's more a case of 'in spite of , " not " because of .
" Though I agree with you to some extent : boobies and bullets offer an easy way to simulate Great Art without having to think too hard about it .
The same way free prose tends to spoodge all over the page in the name of free expression while the more structured iambic pentameter actually takes advantage of the form to overcome the restrictions and crystallize into something profound.On the other hand , not every creative work needs to aspire to fulfill some kind of self-absorbed High Culture milieu .
Sometimes it 's nice to play with boobies and bullets .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As far as the Hayes Code era and great movie production, I think that's more a case of 'in spite of," not "because of.
"Though I agree with you to some extent: boobies and bullets offer an easy way to simulate Great Art without having to think too hard about it.
The same way free prose tends to spoodge all over the page in the name of free expression while the more structured iambic pentameter actually takes advantage of the form to overcome the restrictions and crystallize into something profound.On the other hand, not every creative work needs to aspire to fulfill some kind of self-absorbed High Culture milieu.
Sometimes it's nice to play with boobies and bullets.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388991</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28519801</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>F34nor</author>
	<datestamp>1246269900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Read my post, I said they rarely overlap and when they do you get Half-life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Read my post , I said they rarely overlap and when they do you get Half-life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Read my post, I said they rarely overlap and when they do you get Half-life.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389335</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390755</id>
	<title>Re:Nascence</title>
	<author>Cornflake917</author>
	<datestamp>1245429660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I can sit down with pen and paper and make a caveman drawing but I cannot sit down at my computer and make a Contra clone for an NES emulator? Why? Because the tools that represent pen and paper in this analogy are not open to me. They are closed and guarded by law and by obfuscation.</p></div><p>You could totally make a Contra clone.  I don't know if you can make it for an NES emulator (why the hell you would want to create game on such an old, unmarketable platform is beyond me).  But you could totally make it.   There are plenty of development tools available to you to do such a thing. XNA, OpenGL for programming and there are plenty of open applications for 2d and 3d art.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I can sit down with pen and paper and make a caveman drawing but I can not sit down at my computer and make a Contra clone for an NES emulator ?
Why ? Because the tools that represent pen and paper in this analogy are not open to me .
They are closed and guarded by law and by obfuscation.You could totally make a Contra clone .
I do n't know if you can make it for an NES emulator ( why the hell you would want to create game on such an old , unmarketable platform is beyond me ) .
But you could totally make it .
There are plenty of development tools available to you to do such a thing .
XNA , OpenGL for programming and there are plenty of open applications for 2d and 3d art .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can sit down with pen and paper and make a caveman drawing but I cannot sit down at my computer and make a Contra clone for an NES emulator?
Why? Because the tools that represent pen and paper in this analogy are not open to me.
They are closed and guarded by law and by obfuscation.You could totally make a Contra clone.
I don't know if you can make it for an NES emulator (why the hell you would want to create game on such an old, unmarketable platform is beyond me).
But you could totally make it.
There are plenty of development tools available to you to do such a thing.
XNA, OpenGL for programming and there are plenty of open applications for 2d and 3d art.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389053</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391459</id>
	<title>culture schmulture</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245432720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>*Sarcasm tag* Yes depicting the rape of obviously child like characters is truly art and should not ever be stifled. */Sarcasm tag*</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>* Sarcasm tag * Yes depicting the rape of obviously child like characters is truly art and should not ever be stifled .
* /Sarcasm tag *</tokentext>
<sentencetext>*Sarcasm tag* Yes depicting the rape of obviously child like characters is truly art and should not ever be stifled.
*/Sarcasm tag*</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390777</id>
	<title>Doh!</title>
	<author>GNUPublicLicense</author>
	<datestamp>1245429840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team\_Ico" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team\_Ico</a> [wikipedia.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team \ _Ico [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team\_Ico [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389139</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>thePowerOfGrayskull</author>
	<datestamp>1245423000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>that most people who make video games are technicians rather than artists. I think that the few people who overlap creativity in the story telling or avaunt guard space, rarely overlap with coders or the middle management corporate structure that herds them. So you get Doom-&gt;Quake-&gt;Wolfenstien-&gt;Doom-&gt;Quake games that are just excuses to kill shit with rocket launchers as a development platform.</p></div><p>Well said.  Games most often <i>contain</i> things of high artistic value (tell any 3d modeler that what he's doing isn't art, and then duck!) but seldom is the game itself art.   Think of the game as a gallery -- no artistic value, but it puts on display things of [subjective] beauty and wonder.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>that most people who make video games are technicians rather than artists .
I think that the few people who overlap creativity in the story telling or avaunt guard space , rarely overlap with coders or the middle management corporate structure that herds them .
So you get Doom- &gt; Quake- &gt; Wolfenstien- &gt; Doom- &gt; Quake games that are just excuses to kill shit with rocket launchers as a development platform.Well said .
Games most often contain things of high artistic value ( tell any 3d modeler that what he 's doing is n't art , and then duck !
) but seldom is the game itself art .
Think of the game as a gallery -- no artistic value , but it puts on display things of [ subjective ] beauty and wonder .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>that most people who make video games are technicians rather than artists.
I think that the few people who overlap creativity in the story telling or avaunt guard space, rarely overlap with coders or the middle management corporate structure that herds them.
So you get Doom-&gt;Quake-&gt;Wolfenstien-&gt;Doom-&gt;Quake games that are just excuses to kill shit with rocket launchers as a development platform.Well said.
Games most often contain things of high artistic value (tell any 3d modeler that what he's doing isn't art, and then duck!
) but seldom is the game itself art.
Think of the game as a gallery -- no artistic value, but it puts on display things of [subjective] beauty and wonder.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388923</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389317</id>
	<title>Re:Why is "art" always sex and violence?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245423720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They're *components* of art, not necessarily art in and of themselves every time. But by barring the 'smut' (if you will), you inhibit the will to include references to it at all. For every timeless classic that happens to have a few sex scenes or a few battle scenes, you have thousands of pointless action and skin flicks, or novels, or TV shows, or songs, or [medium].</p><p>Throughout history, entertainment has revolved around violence and sex. It's true from the classical era to the modern day, and will continue to be true until we're some sort of hyper evolved emotionless entities. We remember the classics for their ability to go above and beyond simple sex and violence. Video games will get there too, eventually, with or without censorship.</p><p>The biggest problem is now that video game creation is still too technical. Once it reaches layman's level of ease, where anyone can pick up and a 'make a game', then we'll start seeing more unique and interesting, and perhaps even classically 'artsy', projects. Speech was the first barrier, and song and theater and spoken word are our oldest forms of art. Then writing, for the longest time an arcane mystery known only to priests and scholars, once opened to the common man we started seeing diverse and sometimes beautiful works. Creating a game will get there too. We can already see some wonderful things *inside* games, like Line Rider or Little Big Planet levels, or more involved 'project' levels in FPS games and such, but it'll be a while yet before we see entire games like that created by joe and jane blow created after their daily grind.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They 're * components * of art , not necessarily art in and of themselves every time .
But by barring the 'smut ' ( if you will ) , you inhibit the will to include references to it at all .
For every timeless classic that happens to have a few sex scenes or a few battle scenes , you have thousands of pointless action and skin flicks , or novels , or TV shows , or songs , or [ medium ] .Throughout history , entertainment has revolved around violence and sex .
It 's true from the classical era to the modern day , and will continue to be true until we 're some sort of hyper evolved emotionless entities .
We remember the classics for their ability to go above and beyond simple sex and violence .
Video games will get there too , eventually , with or without censorship.The biggest problem is now that video game creation is still too technical .
Once it reaches layman 's level of ease , where anyone can pick up and a 'make a game ' , then we 'll start seeing more unique and interesting , and perhaps even classically 'artsy ' , projects .
Speech was the first barrier , and song and theater and spoken word are our oldest forms of art .
Then writing , for the longest time an arcane mystery known only to priests and scholars , once opened to the common man we started seeing diverse and sometimes beautiful works .
Creating a game will get there too .
We can already see some wonderful things * inside * games , like Line Rider or Little Big Planet levels , or more involved 'project ' levels in FPS games and such , but it 'll be a while yet before we see entire games like that created by joe and jane blow created after their daily grind .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They're *components* of art, not necessarily art in and of themselves every time.
But by barring the 'smut' (if you will), you inhibit the will to include references to it at all.
For every timeless classic that happens to have a few sex scenes or a few battle scenes, you have thousands of pointless action and skin flicks, or novels, or TV shows, or songs, or [medium].Throughout history, entertainment has revolved around violence and sex.
It's true from the classical era to the modern day, and will continue to be true until we're some sort of hyper evolved emotionless entities.
We remember the classics for their ability to go above and beyond simple sex and violence.
Video games will get there too, eventually, with or without censorship.The biggest problem is now that video game creation is still too technical.
Once it reaches layman's level of ease, where anyone can pick up and a 'make a game', then we'll start seeing more unique and interesting, and perhaps even classically 'artsy', projects.
Speech was the first barrier, and song and theater and spoken word are our oldest forms of art.
Then writing, for the longest time an arcane mystery known only to priests and scholars, once opened to the common man we started seeing diverse and sometimes beautiful works.
Creating a game will get there too.
We can already see some wonderful things *inside* games, like Line Rider or Little Big Planet levels, or more involved 'project' levels in FPS games and such, but it'll be a while yet before we see entire games like that created by joe and jane blow created after their daily grind.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389019</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28395885</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>Ren.Tamek</author>
	<datestamp>1245406500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>So what you're saying is that Quake isn't art, but Half Life is art? How the hell can you say that one of the most imitated games of all time has no artistic value? ID defined an entire genre of video games with Doom, and then redefined it with Quake, which <i>directly influenced</i> the creation of Half Life in an extremely fundamental way. The gameplay and execution of Doom and Quake are some of the tightest, most responsive, and most exciting ever created in my opinion, and I definitely see plenty of artistic value in that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>So what you 're saying is that Quake is n't art , but Half Life is art ?
How the hell can you say that one of the most imitated games of all time has no artistic value ?
ID defined an entire genre of video games with Doom , and then redefined it with Quake , which directly influenced the creation of Half Life in an extremely fundamental way .
The gameplay and execution of Doom and Quake are some of the tightest , most responsive , and most exciting ever created in my opinion , and I definitely see plenty of artistic value in that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So what you're saying is that Quake isn't art, but Half Life is art?
How the hell can you say that one of the most imitated games of all time has no artistic value?
ID defined an entire genre of video games with Doom, and then redefined it with Quake, which directly influenced the creation of Half Life in an extremely fundamental way.
The gameplay and execution of Doom and Quake are some of the tightest, most responsive, and most exciting ever created in my opinion, and I definitely see plenty of artistic value in that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388923</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389765</id>
	<title>Re:Bunk</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245425580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There were plenty of films made this year without "constantly spewing foul language, women hanging out their breasts, constantly showing blood and gore, or hopping into someone else's bed every other moment."</p><p>You make it sound as though we have no choice in Cinema and we shouldn't be allowed variety...this is foolish...there are a great deal of people who aren't particularly offended by such things, they should be allowed to be marketed to by writers and producers.</p><p>Also allow me to say one word here in argument to your distaste in dramatic content...</p><p>Shakespeare.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There were plenty of films made this year without " constantly spewing foul language , women hanging out their breasts , constantly showing blood and gore , or hopping into someone else 's bed every other moment .
" You make it sound as though we have no choice in Cinema and we should n't be allowed variety...this is foolish...there are a great deal of people who are n't particularly offended by such things , they should be allowed to be marketed to by writers and producers.Also allow me to say one word here in argument to your distaste in dramatic content...Shakespeare .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There were plenty of films made this year without "constantly spewing foul language, women hanging out their breasts, constantly showing blood and gore, or hopping into someone else's bed every other moment.
"You make it sound as though we have no choice in Cinema and we shouldn't be allowed variety...this is foolish...there are a great deal of people who aren't particularly offended by such things, they should be allowed to be marketed to by writers and producers.Also allow me to say one word here in argument to your distaste in dramatic content...Shakespeare.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388991</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388883</id>
	<title>8==U=N=C=E=NS=O=R=E=D==D ~~-\_</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245421980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>8==C=O=C=K=S=L=A=P==D</p><p>thunk.</p><p>art is for homos.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>8 = = C = O = C = K = S = L = A = P = = Dthunk.art is for homos .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>8==C=O=C=K=S=L=A=P==Dthunk.art is for homos.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28392801</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>thePowerOfGrayskull</author>
	<datestamp>1245438600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Hm. To answer this further: I don't think film is different.  The mechanics of the process - projecting light through a negative image - are not art.  They're mechanics - artistic decisions can be made about them, but they are fundamentally not artistic.
</p><p>I see this as comparable to most (but not all) games - the mechanics of combat.
</p><p>
But this is not exclusive to what you've said either.  The assets of the game can be extremely artistic -- models, animations and rigging, music composition, even the way scenes are constructed.  But when you look at the larger view: no matter how artistically beautiful the gore splatters are, virtualized killing of zombies isn't art.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hm .
To answer this further : I do n't think film is different .
The mechanics of the process - projecting light through a negative image - are not art .
They 're mechanics - artistic decisions can be made about them , but they are fundamentally not artistic .
I see this as comparable to most ( but not all ) games - the mechanics of combat .
But this is not exclusive to what you 've said either .
The assets of the game can be extremely artistic -- models , animations and rigging , music composition , even the way scenes are constructed .
But when you look at the larger view : no matter how artistically beautiful the gore splatters are , virtualized killing of zombies is n't art .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Hm.
To answer this further: I don't think film is different.
The mechanics of the process - projecting light through a negative image - are not art.
They're mechanics - artistic decisions can be made about them, but they are fundamentally not artistic.
I see this as comparable to most (but not all) games - the mechanics of combat.
But this is not exclusive to what you've said either.
The assets of the game can be extremely artistic -- models, animations and rigging, music composition, even the way scenes are constructed.
But when you look at the larger view: no matter how artistically beautiful the gore splatters are, virtualized killing of zombies isn't art.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28392335</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389557</id>
	<title>Re:Why is "art" always sex and violence?</title>
	<author>physburn</author>
	<datestamp>1245424740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Art is always sex and violence?, Paintings and drawing hardly ever are sex or violence. Movies are often sex and violence, but there plenty of biopics and storytelling movies which aren't. Games are often violence and rarely sexual, (could be due to interface, you need that mouse hand). Sex, Violence and Death, are of course the strongest emotions a human can feel, so naturally are the most common themes as jaded emotion lead to ever stronger content. Movies, aren't protected as free speech in most countries, the're rated, censors, and there limits
to what you can show, so the videogame industry can hardly ask for freedom by comparing itself to the movie industry. The case for media censorship of the games and movie industry is
largely based on the monkey see, monkey do argument, that if people see a criminal activity there likely to follow it. Its difficult to argue to people don't copy what they see in the media, they often do. However if the movie/game, is a mortality tale, then it may prevent the crime, by showing the wrong doer getting his/her just doom. That doesn't often happen in games, more kills usually equals winning in games.
<p>
----
</p><p>
<a href="http://www.feeddistiller.com/blogs/3D\%20Shooter/feed.html" title="feeddistiller.com">3D Shooter Feed , </a> [feeddistiller.com]<a href="http://www.feeddistiller.com/blogs/Horror\%20Movies/feed.html" title="feeddistiller.com">Horror Movie Feed</a> [feeddistiller.com] @ <a href="http://www.feeddistiller.com/" title="feeddistiller.com">Feed Distiller</a> [feeddistiller.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Art is always sex and violence ? , Paintings and drawing hardly ever are sex or violence .
Movies are often sex and violence , but there plenty of biopics and storytelling movies which are n't .
Games are often violence and rarely sexual , ( could be due to interface , you need that mouse hand ) .
Sex , Violence and Death , are of course the strongest emotions a human can feel , so naturally are the most common themes as jaded emotion lead to ever stronger content .
Movies , are n't protected as free speech in most countries , the 're rated , censors , and there limits to what you can show , so the videogame industry can hardly ask for freedom by comparing itself to the movie industry .
The case for media censorship of the games and movie industry is largely based on the monkey see , monkey do argument , that if people see a criminal activity there likely to follow it .
Its difficult to argue to people do n't copy what they see in the media , they often do .
However if the movie/game , is a mortality tale , then it may prevent the crime , by showing the wrong doer getting his/her just doom .
That does n't often happen in games , more kills usually equals winning in games .
---- 3D Shooter Feed , [ feeddistiller.com ] Horror Movie Feed [ feeddistiller.com ] @ Feed Distiller [ feeddistiller.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Art is always sex and violence?, Paintings and drawing hardly ever are sex or violence.
Movies are often sex and violence, but there plenty of biopics and storytelling movies which aren't.
Games are often violence and rarely sexual, (could be due to interface, you need that mouse hand).
Sex, Violence and Death, are of course the strongest emotions a human can feel, so naturally are the most common themes as jaded emotion lead to ever stronger content.
Movies, aren't protected as free speech in most countries, the're rated, censors, and there limits
to what you can show, so the videogame industry can hardly ask for freedom by comparing itself to the movie industry.
The case for media censorship of the games and movie industry is
largely based on the monkey see, monkey do argument, that if people see a criminal activity there likely to follow it.
Its difficult to argue to people don't copy what they see in the media, they often do.
However if the movie/game, is a mortality tale, then it may prevent the crime, by showing the wrong doer getting his/her just doom.
That doesn't often happen in games, more kills usually equals winning in games.
----

3D Shooter Feed ,  [feeddistiller.com]Horror Movie Feed [feeddistiller.com] @ Feed Distiller [feeddistiller.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389019</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28395175</id>
	<title>Re:New medium</title>
	<author>brkello</author>
	<datestamp>1245403680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why is it when people state that it is a well known fact, it never is well known or factual?<br> <br>We don't see art that involves painting and sculpting naked people/people having sex.  I am sure it is being done, but it isn't something that we display to everyone.  And these are mediums that are extremely mature.  Quite frankly, we live in a society that is overly puritanical.  It is more of a cultural issue that is against nudity and sex that makes people scream not art than the medium. Our culture accepts violence to a certain degree, but at a certain point it becomes gratuitous and "not art" again.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is it when people state that it is a well known fact , it never is well known or factual ?
We do n't see art that involves painting and sculpting naked people/people having sex .
I am sure it is being done , but it is n't something that we display to everyone .
And these are mediums that are extremely mature .
Quite frankly , we live in a society that is overly puritanical .
It is more of a cultural issue that is against nudity and sex that makes people scream not art than the medium .
Our culture accepts violence to a certain degree , but at a certain point it becomes gratuitous and " not art " again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is it when people state that it is a well known fact, it never is well known or factual?
We don't see art that involves painting and sculpting naked people/people having sex.
I am sure it is being done, but it isn't something that we display to everyone.
And these are mediums that are extremely mature.
Quite frankly, we live in a society that is overly puritanical.
It is more of a cultural issue that is against nudity and sex that makes people scream not art than the medium.
Our culture accepts violence to a certain degree, but at a certain point it becomes gratuitous and "not art" again.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388939</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390631</id>
	<title>Sexual images helpful to minors? (I'm serious)</title>
	<author>fugue</author>
	<datestamp>1245429120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Americans have so many deep issues with their sexuality that whatever we're doing is obviously very far from working.

</p><p>A friend and I were discussing this a few weeks ago: if we had sex in public, showing real, normal, healthy sex and making no effort to hide it from our culture's children, how would they be different?  Does making sure that sex only takes place behind closed doors help anyone?  How?  How <i>exactly</i> would you, as a middle-school kid, have been scarred if your parents had occasionally made sweet loooove on the dinner table after dessert?

</p><p>Serious question here: does anyone know of any research into whether sexual content is actually harmful to anyone?  Helpful?  Scarring?  Enlightening?  Erotic, obviously, but let's ignore that one for now, and references to xkcd #598 are unnecessary<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)  I'm seriously interested in controlled studies on this topic, but anecdote and speculation (and puerile comments about the previous paragraph) could be fun too if you're <i>really</i> sure you're witty.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Americans have so many deep issues with their sexuality that whatever we 're doing is obviously very far from working .
A friend and I were discussing this a few weeks ago : if we had sex in public , showing real , normal , healthy sex and making no effort to hide it from our culture 's children , how would they be different ?
Does making sure that sex only takes place behind closed doors help anyone ?
How ? How exactly would you , as a middle-school kid , have been scarred if your parents had occasionally made sweet loooove on the dinner table after dessert ?
Serious question here : does anyone know of any research into whether sexual content is actually harmful to anyone ?
Helpful ? Scarring ?
Enlightening ? Erotic , obviously , but let 's ignore that one for now , and references to xkcd # 598 are unnecessary : ) I 'm seriously interested in controlled studies on this topic , but anecdote and speculation ( and puerile comments about the previous paragraph ) could be fun too if you 're really sure you 're witty .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Americans have so many deep issues with their sexuality that whatever we're doing is obviously very far from working.
A friend and I were discussing this a few weeks ago: if we had sex in public, showing real, normal, healthy sex and making no effort to hide it from our culture's children, how would they be different?
Does making sure that sex only takes place behind closed doors help anyone?
How?  How exactly would you, as a middle-school kid, have been scarred if your parents had occasionally made sweet loooove on the dinner table after dessert?
Serious question here: does anyone know of any research into whether sexual content is actually harmful to anyone?
Helpful?  Scarring?
Enlightening?  Erotic, obviously, but let's ignore that one for now, and references to xkcd #598 are unnecessary :)  I'm seriously interested in controlled studies on this topic, but anecdote and speculation (and puerile comments about the previous paragraph) could be fun too if you're really sure you're witty.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389333</id>
	<title>Yes, Citizen Kane needed those sex scenes...</title>
	<author>millia</author>
	<datestamp>1245423780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I admit I haven't read the article yet, and perhaps it's got a very nuanced discussion on this subject that will persuade me otherwise...</p><p>but I doubt it.</p><p>Look, it's a new thing, really. I don't know why we haven't had 'art' in VG yet, but the simple fact is that it isn't because we don't have explicit sex. (Explicit violence has been censored from VG? Uh...)</p><p>I just drew a simple classic off the top of my head. Citizen Kane has nothing approaching violence and sex, and yet it's well regarded. And although Shakespeare had violence (and bawdy puns) it's nothing that you couldn't do without being a MA game.</p><p>I could probably list a 100 movies that affected me greatly, that are well regarded, and at least half of them I'd put forth as art, and of those, at least half again would be lacking in violence and sex. Sometimes, lacking colors in your palette can ENHANCE the experience.</p><p>We're getting there. Things like Braid are a step forward. Quite honestly, though, the real problem is the lack of a broad audience. When the 40 year old gamers of today hit 60, they'll have different tastes and requirements.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I admit I have n't read the article yet , and perhaps it 's got a very nuanced discussion on this subject that will persuade me otherwise...but I doubt it.Look , it 's a new thing , really .
I do n't know why we have n't had 'art ' in VG yet , but the simple fact is that it is n't because we do n't have explicit sex .
( Explicit violence has been censored from VG ?
Uh... ) I just drew a simple classic off the top of my head .
Citizen Kane has nothing approaching violence and sex , and yet it 's well regarded .
And although Shakespeare had violence ( and bawdy puns ) it 's nothing that you could n't do without being a MA game.I could probably list a 100 movies that affected me greatly , that are well regarded , and at least half of them I 'd put forth as art , and of those , at least half again would be lacking in violence and sex .
Sometimes , lacking colors in your palette can ENHANCE the experience.We 're getting there .
Things like Braid are a step forward .
Quite honestly , though , the real problem is the lack of a broad audience .
When the 40 year old gamers of today hit 60 , they 'll have different tastes and requirements .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I admit I haven't read the article yet, and perhaps it's got a very nuanced discussion on this subject that will persuade me otherwise...but I doubt it.Look, it's a new thing, really.
I don't know why we haven't had 'art' in VG yet, but the simple fact is that it isn't because we don't have explicit sex.
(Explicit violence has been censored from VG?
Uh...)I just drew a simple classic off the top of my head.
Citizen Kane has nothing approaching violence and sex, and yet it's well regarded.
And although Shakespeare had violence (and bawdy puns) it's nothing that you couldn't do without being a MA game.I could probably list a 100 movies that affected me greatly, that are well regarded, and at least half of them I'd put forth as art, and of those, at least half again would be lacking in violence and sex.
Sometimes, lacking colors in your palette can ENHANCE the experience.We're getting there.
Things like Braid are a step forward.
Quite honestly, though, the real problem is the lack of a broad audience.
When the 40 year old gamers of today hit 60, they'll have different tastes and requirements.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391589</id>
	<title>Re:Why is "art" always sex and violence?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245433380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think the parent was in part agreeing with you.  I saw his post as lamenting the fact that more often than not, when people are arguing that video games are art, it's because they are arguing against the censorship of sex and graphic violence.  Which is odd because they games I've played where I thought there was some sort of artistic message usually have neither.<br>In my opinion, the debate on whether video games are art and the debate on censorship shouldn't be so intermingled.  Some games are art and some games are crap.  No games should be banned outright.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the parent was in part agreeing with you .
I saw his post as lamenting the fact that more often than not , when people are arguing that video games are art , it 's because they are arguing against the censorship of sex and graphic violence .
Which is odd because they games I 've played where I thought there was some sort of artistic message usually have neither.In my opinion , the debate on whether video games are art and the debate on censorship should n't be so intermingled .
Some games are art and some games are crap .
No games should be banned outright .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the parent was in part agreeing with you.
I saw his post as lamenting the fact that more often than not, when people are arguing that video games are art, it's because they are arguing against the censorship of sex and graphic violence.
Which is odd because they games I've played where I thought there was some sort of artistic message usually have neither.In my opinion, the debate on whether video games are art and the debate on censorship shouldn't be so intermingled.
Some games are art and some games are crap.
No games should be banned outright.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389557</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391551</id>
	<title>Re:Tired of these stupid debates</title>
	<author>YourExperiment</author>
	<datestamp>1245433200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"beware those who are quick to censor<br>
they are afraid of what they do not know"</p><p>

<a href="http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-genius-of-the-crowd/" title="poemhunter.com">The Genius of the Crowd - Charles Bukowski</a> [poemhunter.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" beware those who are quick to censor they are afraid of what they do not know " The Genius of the Crowd - Charles Bukowski [ poemhunter.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"beware those who are quick to censor
they are afraid of what they do not know"

The Genius of the Crowd - Charles Bukowski [poemhunter.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389303</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28392671</id>
	<title>Re:New medium</title>
	<author>Hatta</author>
	<datestamp>1245438000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My question is whether we really want games to be art.  By and large that which is considered high art, is just pretentious bullshit.  I don't need my choice of entertainment to be validated by some snooty twit declaring it to be art.  All I care is that it's well made and enjoyable.  Let games be games, and those who appreciate them for what they are will see the beauty they have.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My question is whether we really want games to be art .
By and large that which is considered high art , is just pretentious bullshit .
I do n't need my choice of entertainment to be validated by some snooty twit declaring it to be art .
All I care is that it 's well made and enjoyable .
Let games be games , and those who appreciate them for what they are will see the beauty they have .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My question is whether we really want games to be art.
By and large that which is considered high art, is just pretentious bullshit.
I don't need my choice of entertainment to be validated by some snooty twit declaring it to be art.
All I care is that it's well made and enjoyable.
Let games be games, and those who appreciate them for what they are will see the beauty they have.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388939</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389731</id>
	<title>Re:8==U=N=C=E=NS=O=R=E=D==D ~~-\_</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245425400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>ASCII art of pens!es</htmltext>
<tokenext>ASCII art of pens ! es</tokentext>
<sentencetext>ASCII art of pens!es</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388883</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390463</id>
	<title>Really?</title>
	<author>dbmasters</author>
	<datestamp>1245428400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>So, one needs to include violent and sexual imagery to be artistic? That got to be one of the most ignorant arguments I've ever heard.</htmltext>
<tokenext>So , one needs to include violent and sexual imagery to be artistic ?
That got to be one of the most ignorant arguments I 've ever heard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So, one needs to include violent and sexual imagery to be artistic?
That got to be one of the most ignorant arguments I've ever heard.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391089</id>
	<title>Re:Nascence</title>
	<author>YourExperiment</author>
	<datestamp>1245431220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On the contrary, it's becoming easier and easier to create games. There are message boards crammed full of people participating in indie games competitions, many with only the most rudimentary of programming and art skills (no offence to them). The tools have progressed to the point where these people can put together a game, and sometimes the result is (in my opinion) <a href="http://hcsoftware.sourceforge.net/passage/" title="sourceforge.net">worthy to be called "art"</a> [sourceforge.net]. Of course, the majority is utter rubbish, but you can say that about commercial games also (Sturgeon's Law).</p><p>Funnily enough, with the rise in popularity of "pixel art" in indie games, many even look like the 8-bit games you called the "cavemen drawings of what games will become". I take your point, and perhaps games will never be as easy to create as a doodle. But it's becoming easier every day, and this, if anything, is what will deliver games as art.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On the contrary , it 's becoming easier and easier to create games .
There are message boards crammed full of people participating in indie games competitions , many with only the most rudimentary of programming and art skills ( no offence to them ) .
The tools have progressed to the point where these people can put together a game , and sometimes the result is ( in my opinion ) worthy to be called " art " [ sourceforge.net ] .
Of course , the majority is utter rubbish , but you can say that about commercial games also ( Sturgeon 's Law ) .Funnily enough , with the rise in popularity of " pixel art " in indie games , many even look like the 8-bit games you called the " cavemen drawings of what games will become " .
I take your point , and perhaps games will never be as easy to create as a doodle .
But it 's becoming easier every day , and this , if anything , is what will deliver games as art .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On the contrary, it's becoming easier and easier to create games.
There are message boards crammed full of people participating in indie games competitions, many with only the most rudimentary of programming and art skills (no offence to them).
The tools have progressed to the point where these people can put together a game, and sometimes the result is (in my opinion) worthy to be called "art" [sourceforge.net].
Of course, the majority is utter rubbish, but you can say that about commercial games also (Sturgeon's Law).Funnily enough, with the rise in popularity of "pixel art" in indie games, many even look like the 8-bit games you called the "cavemen drawings of what games will become".
I take your point, and perhaps games will never be as easy to create as a doodle.
But it's becoming easier every day, and this, if anything, is what will deliver games as art.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389053</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28394277</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245443880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's silly. It's like saying that creating the sets and costumes and lighting for a movie is art but cinematography isn't. Just because it's popular and not always "high brow" doesn't make it not art.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's silly .
It 's like saying that creating the sets and costumes and lighting for a movie is art but cinematography is n't .
Just because it 's popular and not always " high brow " does n't make it not art .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's silly.
It's like saying that creating the sets and costumes and lighting for a movie is art but cinematography isn't.
Just because it's popular and not always "high brow" doesn't make it not art.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389139</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389089</id>
	<title>All for censorship...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245422820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>in the home.  The government however should stay out of it.  I do appreciate them having little warnings on boxes to help me decide if the children I'm responsible for should have access to that material or not.  What I don't understand is how does classifying something as art give it a special dispensation to show material that wouldn't be deemed appropriate in other media.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>in the home .
The government however should stay out of it .
I do appreciate them having little warnings on boxes to help me decide if the children I 'm responsible for should have access to that material or not .
What I do n't understand is how does classifying something as art give it a special dispensation to show material that would n't be deemed appropriate in other media .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>in the home.
The government however should stay out of it.
I do appreciate them having little warnings on boxes to help me decide if the children I'm responsible for should have access to that material or not.
What I don't understand is how does classifying something as art give it a special dispensation to show material that wouldn't be deemed appropriate in other media.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390917</id>
	<title>False collary.</title>
	<author>Hawthorne01</author>
	<datestamp>1245430440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Creative video games are, well, creative video games. Innovative game play and a rich playing experience make for a good video game, not more blood, guts, and T+A.</p><p>A good game is a good game, regardless of it's rating.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Creative video games are , well , creative video games .
Innovative game play and a rich playing experience make for a good video game , not more blood , guts , and T + A.A good game is a good game , regardless of it 's rating .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Creative video games are, well, creative video games.
Innovative game play and a rich playing experience make for a good video game, not more blood, guts, and T+A.A good game is a good game, regardless of it's rating.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389147</id>
	<title>Really? You can't express yourself?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245423000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not advocating censorship, but really, can't you make games that represent any political or artistic notion that comes into your head? What viewpoints cannot be expressed because of this repressive censorship we now have?</p><p>And it's hard to swallow the idea that video games aren't allowed to be violent enough. You can already kill prostitutes for fun and torture people to death and make people explode in gore - what else do you want? Are there ANY rules right now, other than a rating system that gives people fair warning?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not advocating censorship , but really , ca n't you make games that represent any political or artistic notion that comes into your head ?
What viewpoints can not be expressed because of this repressive censorship we now have ? And it 's hard to swallow the idea that video games are n't allowed to be violent enough .
You can already kill prostitutes for fun and torture people to death and make people explode in gore - what else do you want ?
Are there ANY rules right now , other than a rating system that gives people fair warning ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not advocating censorship, but really, can't you make games that represent any political or artistic notion that comes into your head?
What viewpoints cannot be expressed because of this repressive censorship we now have?And it's hard to swallow the idea that video games aren't allowed to be violent enough.
You can already kill prostitutes for fun and torture people to death and make people explode in gore - what else do you want?
Are there ANY rules right now, other than a rating system that gives people fair warning?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390907</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>Dr. Impossible</author>
	<datestamp>1245430440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There isn't anyone working in the game industry who could create something on par with quality cinema, and even if there was he wouldn't have an audience since gamers are mostly uncultured morons. The more intellectual types seem incapable of doing anything except whining that games should be recognized as high art just because (or some other variation of "but is it art?"). Why are games "regarded as amusement for man-children and lacking in artistic merit?" Because games are mostly lacking in artistic merit and played by man-children who just want shiny things to go boom in high definition. It wasn't always like this, because games, at least on computers, were much more intelligent and mature before gaming went mainstream. But that's another story.</p><p>Tech Report:</p><blockquote><div><p>And it's important to note that video games are still very young. We still have developers flirting with mature content.</p></div></blockquote><p>Bitch please! Tits and severed heads do not make a game (or movie) mature. This kind of juvenile thinking is exactly what's wrong with the gaming world.</p><p>Tech Report:</p><blockquote><div><p>Video games are indeed art.</p></div></blockquote><p><i>Some</i> games <i>can</i> be "art" (not that I can think of a single one, but maybe some day). These "but is it art?" essays are just a desperate attempt to make gaming appear as something that can be taken seriously. They try to validate gaming as an artform, but based on what? Where is all this high art that the gaming intelligentsia is always talking about? Games have a long way to go before they can be taken seriously, especially since they've abandoned their most valuable asset for storytelling: adventure games.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is n't anyone working in the game industry who could create something on par with quality cinema , and even if there was he would n't have an audience since gamers are mostly uncultured morons .
The more intellectual types seem incapable of doing anything except whining that games should be recognized as high art just because ( or some other variation of " but is it art ? " ) .
Why are games " regarded as amusement for man-children and lacking in artistic merit ?
" Because games are mostly lacking in artistic merit and played by man-children who just want shiny things to go boom in high definition .
It was n't always like this , because games , at least on computers , were much more intelligent and mature before gaming went mainstream .
But that 's another story.Tech Report : And it 's important to note that video games are still very young .
We still have developers flirting with mature content.Bitch please !
Tits and severed heads do not make a game ( or movie ) mature .
This kind of juvenile thinking is exactly what 's wrong with the gaming world.Tech Report : Video games are indeed art.Some games can be " art " ( not that I can think of a single one , but maybe some day ) .
These " but is it art ?
" essays are just a desperate attempt to make gaming appear as something that can be taken seriously .
They try to validate gaming as an artform , but based on what ?
Where is all this high art that the gaming intelligentsia is always talking about ?
Games have a long way to go before they can be taken seriously , especially since they 've abandoned their most valuable asset for storytelling : adventure games .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There isn't anyone working in the game industry who could create something on par with quality cinema, and even if there was he wouldn't have an audience since gamers are mostly uncultured morons.
The more intellectual types seem incapable of doing anything except whining that games should be recognized as high art just because (or some other variation of "but is it art?").
Why are games "regarded as amusement for man-children and lacking in artistic merit?
" Because games are mostly lacking in artistic merit and played by man-children who just want shiny things to go boom in high definition.
It wasn't always like this, because games, at least on computers, were much more intelligent and mature before gaming went mainstream.
But that's another story.Tech Report:And it's important to note that video games are still very young.
We still have developers flirting with mature content.Bitch please!
Tits and severed heads do not make a game (or movie) mature.
This kind of juvenile thinking is exactly what's wrong with the gaming world.Tech Report:Video games are indeed art.Some games can be "art" (not that I can think of a single one, but maybe some day).
These "but is it art?
" essays are just a desperate attempt to make gaming appear as something that can be taken seriously.
They try to validate gaming as an artform, but based on what?
Where is all this high art that the gaming intelligentsia is always talking about?
Games have a long way to go before they can be taken seriously, especially since they've abandoned their most valuable asset for storytelling: adventure games.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388923</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389425</id>
	<title>By Neruos</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245424200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well duh...</p><p>Any type of limit, censor and/or law henders advancement in any field; resulting in the best situation a slowing of the initial desired effect/outcome.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well duh...Any type of limit , censor and/or law henders advancement in any field ; resulting in the best situation a slowing of the initial desired effect/outcome .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well duh...Any type of limit, censor and/or law henders advancement in any field; resulting in the best situation a slowing of the initial desired effect/outcome.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391443</id>
	<title>Nonsense.</title>
	<author>MaWeiTao</author>
	<datestamp>1245432660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bullshit. If you need sex and violence then you're not particularly creative. Certainly either can be a crucial part of a story and add to that experience, but it certainly isn't the end all and be all of creativity. I don't understand this obsession with "mature" themes, like gamers and developers alike are trying to prove they're mature in the most immature way possible. And let's not kid ourselves, developers are making their games more violent and adding more sex not because of some creative need, but for the simple reason that it sells.</p><p>Technologically gaming certain has progressed to an impressive degree over the past few decades. But in terms of quality of storytelling, outside of a handful of exceptions I actually think we've regressed. Unfortunately, the game industry is taking Hollywood's approach to entertainment which means it's appealing to the lowest common denominator.</p><p>If fail to see the connections the author is trying to make. Japan's high concept games, for example, have come about independently of anything else the industry might be producing. Ironically, most high-concept games are light on violence. Games like Fallout 3 or Bioshock are not art and certainly not intellectual. Well, they're the Hollywood version of profound thought, which means they aren't very deep at all.</p><p>I think too many people are trying to rationalize why they play violent or sexual games and expect non-gamers to understand and accept it. The fact is that many people are turned off by that sort of thing. People play these games because they get a rise out of them, it's titillating. And that's perfectly acceptable. I'm not suggesting adults should be banned from playing these games. In fact, I sometimes enjoy them myself. My problem is with people making ridiculous justifications for their existence and somehow suggesting that they're necessary for the advancement of art.</p><p>And interestingly, sometimes people are their most creative when they're limited in some way. When they're free to do whatever they like it's like they don't know what they want and the end result is crap. Again, I'm not endorsing censorship. I'm pointing out that people can be creative if they wanted to be, but it doesn't make for a profitable business model. More esoteric games in Japan occasionally enjoy success there because culturally they're more open to that sort of thing. Unfortunately in the US, where your average gamer needs everything to exude attitude and menace such games rarely get any attention. But then that's what we've got indie gaming for.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bullshit .
If you need sex and violence then you 're not particularly creative .
Certainly either can be a crucial part of a story and add to that experience , but it certainly is n't the end all and be all of creativity .
I do n't understand this obsession with " mature " themes , like gamers and developers alike are trying to prove they 're mature in the most immature way possible .
And let 's not kid ourselves , developers are making their games more violent and adding more sex not because of some creative need , but for the simple reason that it sells.Technologically gaming certain has progressed to an impressive degree over the past few decades .
But in terms of quality of storytelling , outside of a handful of exceptions I actually think we 've regressed .
Unfortunately , the game industry is taking Hollywood 's approach to entertainment which means it 's appealing to the lowest common denominator.If fail to see the connections the author is trying to make .
Japan 's high concept games , for example , have come about independently of anything else the industry might be producing .
Ironically , most high-concept games are light on violence .
Games like Fallout 3 or Bioshock are not art and certainly not intellectual .
Well , they 're the Hollywood version of profound thought , which means they are n't very deep at all.I think too many people are trying to rationalize why they play violent or sexual games and expect non-gamers to understand and accept it .
The fact is that many people are turned off by that sort of thing .
People play these games because they get a rise out of them , it 's titillating .
And that 's perfectly acceptable .
I 'm not suggesting adults should be banned from playing these games .
In fact , I sometimes enjoy them myself .
My problem is with people making ridiculous justifications for their existence and somehow suggesting that they 're necessary for the advancement of art.And interestingly , sometimes people are their most creative when they 're limited in some way .
When they 're free to do whatever they like it 's like they do n't know what they want and the end result is crap .
Again , I 'm not endorsing censorship .
I 'm pointing out that people can be creative if they wanted to be , but it does n't make for a profitable business model .
More esoteric games in Japan occasionally enjoy success there because culturally they 're more open to that sort of thing .
Unfortunately in the US , where your average gamer needs everything to exude attitude and menace such games rarely get any attention .
But then that 's what we 've got indie gaming for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bullshit.
If you need sex and violence then you're not particularly creative.
Certainly either can be a crucial part of a story and add to that experience, but it certainly isn't the end all and be all of creativity.
I don't understand this obsession with "mature" themes, like gamers and developers alike are trying to prove they're mature in the most immature way possible.
And let's not kid ourselves, developers are making their games more violent and adding more sex not because of some creative need, but for the simple reason that it sells.Technologically gaming certain has progressed to an impressive degree over the past few decades.
But in terms of quality of storytelling, outside of a handful of exceptions I actually think we've regressed.
Unfortunately, the game industry is taking Hollywood's approach to entertainment which means it's appealing to the lowest common denominator.If fail to see the connections the author is trying to make.
Japan's high concept games, for example, have come about independently of anything else the industry might be producing.
Ironically, most high-concept games are light on violence.
Games like Fallout 3 or Bioshock are not art and certainly not intellectual.
Well, they're the Hollywood version of profound thought, which means they aren't very deep at all.I think too many people are trying to rationalize why they play violent or sexual games and expect non-gamers to understand and accept it.
The fact is that many people are turned off by that sort of thing.
People play these games because they get a rise out of them, it's titillating.
And that's perfectly acceptable.
I'm not suggesting adults should be banned from playing these games.
In fact, I sometimes enjoy them myself.
My problem is with people making ridiculous justifications for their existence and somehow suggesting that they're necessary for the advancement of art.And interestingly, sometimes people are their most creative when they're limited in some way.
When they're free to do whatever they like it's like they don't know what they want and the end result is crap.
Again, I'm not endorsing censorship.
I'm pointing out that people can be creative if they wanted to be, but it doesn't make for a profitable business model.
More esoteric games in Japan occasionally enjoy success there because culturally they're more open to that sort of thing.
Unfortunately in the US, where your average gamer needs everything to exude attitude and menace such games rarely get any attention.
But then that's what we've got indie gaming for.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28395395</id>
	<title>Re:Nascence</title>
	<author>brkello</author>
	<datestamp>1245404400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This isn't insightful, it is wrong.  There are plenty of toolkits out there that can allow you to build simple games that you don't need a lot of experience to do.  Look at the PS3 and what you can do with their game.  The future will only make it easier to make simple games.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is n't insightful , it is wrong .
There are plenty of toolkits out there that can allow you to build simple games that you do n't need a lot of experience to do .
Look at the PS3 and what you can do with their game .
The future will only make it easier to make simple games .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This isn't insightful, it is wrong.
There are plenty of toolkits out there that can allow you to build simple games that you don't need a lot of experience to do.
Look at the PS3 and what you can do with their game.
The future will only make it easier to make simple games.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389053</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389181</id>
	<title>Let's see if I get this straight...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245423120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If we're going to emulate film's success in video games, we need more daring, out-there, no-holds-barred visionary kind of stuff like <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Birth\_of\_a\_Nation" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">Birth of a Nation</a> [wikipedia.org] (a.k.a. bizarre violent paranoid racist fantasy) ?</p><p>Sorry mates, I think I'll stick to Minesweeper myself...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If we 're going to emulate film 's success in video games , we need more daring , out-there , no-holds-barred visionary kind of stuff like Birth of a Nation [ wikipedia.org ] ( a.k.a .
bizarre violent paranoid racist fantasy ) ? Sorry mates , I think I 'll stick to Minesweeper myself.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If we're going to emulate film's success in video games, we need more daring, out-there, no-holds-barred visionary kind of stuff like Birth of a Nation [wikipedia.org] (a.k.a.
bizarre violent paranoid racist fantasy) ?Sorry mates, I think I'll stick to Minesweeper myself...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389579</id>
	<title>it should be bloody obvious</title>
	<author>Minion of Eris</author>
	<datestamp>1245424740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>that any form of censorship will stifle creativity.</htmltext>
<tokenext>that any form of censorship will stifle creativity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>that any form of censorship will stifle creativity.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389271</id>
	<title>Re:Bunk</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245423420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Hollywood made a lot of great movies in the Hayes Code era, thus demonstrating that it is possible to create Great Art while refraining from constantly spewing foul language, women hanging out their breasts, constantly showing blood and gore, or hopping into someone else's bed every other moment.</p></div><p>But why censor something?  If they can dream it, why can't I watch it?  Besides most of the stuff you list happens in real life.  I use "foul" language on a daily basis; so many people do it is hardly "foul" (it is all in the interpretation/connotation - not the actual syllables).  Women's breasts are great!  They give life to the young and men like them.  What's wrong with that?  We all bleed.  Nature is all about blood and guts.  Ever seen a lion tear apart a wildebeest?  Seen that hamburger you ate get processed? And as to your last point.... Ahh, college days!<br>
Your a fucking square.  I would never want to live your life.  That's fine.  I will never try to make your boring antics illegal to be done or viewed.  So please don't try to make how I want to live illegal.  Even if you don't like it, it isn't your place to tell me how to live.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hollywood made a lot of great movies in the Hayes Code era , thus demonstrating that it is possible to create Great Art while refraining from constantly spewing foul language , women hanging out their breasts , constantly showing blood and gore , or hopping into someone else 's bed every other moment.But why censor something ?
If they can dream it , why ca n't I watch it ?
Besides most of the stuff you list happens in real life .
I use " foul " language on a daily basis ; so many people do it is hardly " foul " ( it is all in the interpretation/connotation - not the actual syllables ) .
Women 's breasts are great !
They give life to the young and men like them .
What 's wrong with that ?
We all bleed .
Nature is all about blood and guts .
Ever seen a lion tear apart a wildebeest ?
Seen that hamburger you ate get processed ?
And as to your last point.... Ahh , college days !
Your a fucking square .
I would never want to live your life .
That 's fine .
I will never try to make your boring antics illegal to be done or viewed .
So please do n't try to make how I want to live illegal .
Even if you do n't like it , it is n't your place to tell me how to live .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hollywood made a lot of great movies in the Hayes Code era, thus demonstrating that it is possible to create Great Art while refraining from constantly spewing foul language, women hanging out their breasts, constantly showing blood and gore, or hopping into someone else's bed every other moment.But why censor something?
If they can dream it, why can't I watch it?
Besides most of the stuff you list happens in real life.
I use "foul" language on a daily basis; so many people do it is hardly "foul" (it is all in the interpretation/connotation - not the actual syllables).
Women's breasts are great!
They give life to the young and men like them.
What's wrong with that?
We all bleed.
Nature is all about blood and guts.
Ever seen a lion tear apart a wildebeest?
Seen that hamburger you ate get processed?
And as to your last point.... Ahh, college days!
Your a fucking square.
I would never want to live your life.
That's fine.
I will never try to make your boring antics illegal to be done or viewed.
So please don't try to make how I want to live illegal.
Even if you don't like it, it isn't your place to tell me how to live.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388991</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388935</id>
	<title>artistic maturity ?</title>
	<author>hebites</author>
	<datestamp>1245422220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Graphic Violence and exploitive sexual images represent artistic maturity ?   In the sense that Howard Stern represents the best of artistic achievement of our culture.   Oops I farted he he ha ha ho ho that was so funny.  Wait, performance art.... maybe I can get a grant.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Graphic Violence and exploitive sexual images represent artistic maturity ?
In the sense that Howard Stern represents the best of artistic achievement of our culture .
Oops I farted he he ha ha ho ho that was so funny .
Wait , performance art.... maybe I can get a grant .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Graphic Violence and exploitive sexual images represent artistic maturity ?
In the sense that Howard Stern represents the best of artistic achievement of our culture.
Oops I farted he he ha ha ho ho that was so funny.
Wait, performance art.... maybe I can get a grant.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28394273</id>
	<title>Re:8==U=N=C=E=NS=O=R=E=D==D ~~-\_</title>
	<author>Omestes</author>
	<datestamp>1245443880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think a better example of game-devs not seeing themselves as artists (nor wanting to be) is the lack of style in most games.  Most modern games go for a boring gray-brown "realistic" palette, and try for realism as much as possible, and most games, game-play wise, are boring cut-and-paste jobs from previous successful games in their genre, with perhaps a single added gimmick to sell themselves as better than I-XVI in whatever series.</p><p>Games as story telling is equally as trite, these days.</p><p>In short, there is no real innovation (outside of realistic-style graphics), and without innovation you have no real creativity.</p><p>There as some examples that go against this, Like Katamari and the studio who made No More Heroes and Killer 7.</p><p>But comparing games to Hollywood (as we are apt to do), we can see this mirrored there.  You have your large, pretty, summer blockbusters and romantic comedies, taking the lionshare of the market.  With a small niche of David Lynches, and Stanely Kubriks (I would have thrown Tim Burton in there, but he's been doing formulaic crap for awhile now, as well).</p><p>Most art is like this in the modern consumer market.  Look at music, 90\% of it is consumer grade pap, and 10\% of it is made by genuine musicians (as artist).  Design is in the same space too, with 90\% being Ikea/Crate and Barrel crap, and the rest being filled by little botique markets.  I could go on.</p><p>We have the illusion of things being more "artistic" in the past, because all of the formulaic crap is quickly forgotten, and all we remember is the unique or innovative.  Games will be the same way, and already somewhat are.  You remember Duke Nukem, but can you remember what was the big Tom Clancy/WWII game of five or six years ago?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think a better example of game-devs not seeing themselves as artists ( nor wanting to be ) is the lack of style in most games .
Most modern games go for a boring gray-brown " realistic " palette , and try for realism as much as possible , and most games , game-play wise , are boring cut-and-paste jobs from previous successful games in their genre , with perhaps a single added gimmick to sell themselves as better than I-XVI in whatever series.Games as story telling is equally as trite , these days.In short , there is no real innovation ( outside of realistic-style graphics ) , and without innovation you have no real creativity.There as some examples that go against this , Like Katamari and the studio who made No More Heroes and Killer 7.But comparing games to Hollywood ( as we are apt to do ) , we can see this mirrored there .
You have your large , pretty , summer blockbusters and romantic comedies , taking the lionshare of the market .
With a small niche of David Lynches , and Stanely Kubriks ( I would have thrown Tim Burton in there , but he 's been doing formulaic crap for awhile now , as well ) .Most art is like this in the modern consumer market .
Look at music , 90 \ % of it is consumer grade pap , and 10 \ % of it is made by genuine musicians ( as artist ) .
Design is in the same space too , with 90 \ % being Ikea/Crate and Barrel crap , and the rest being filled by little botique markets .
I could go on.We have the illusion of things being more " artistic " in the past , because all of the formulaic crap is quickly forgotten , and all we remember is the unique or innovative .
Games will be the same way , and already somewhat are .
You remember Duke Nukem , but can you remember what was the big Tom Clancy/WWII game of five or six years ago ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think a better example of game-devs not seeing themselves as artists (nor wanting to be) is the lack of style in most games.
Most modern games go for a boring gray-brown "realistic" palette, and try for realism as much as possible, and most games, game-play wise, are boring cut-and-paste jobs from previous successful games in their genre, with perhaps a single added gimmick to sell themselves as better than I-XVI in whatever series.Games as story telling is equally as trite, these days.In short, there is no real innovation (outside of realistic-style graphics), and without innovation you have no real creativity.There as some examples that go against this, Like Katamari and the studio who made No More Heroes and Killer 7.But comparing games to Hollywood (as we are apt to do), we can see this mirrored there.
You have your large, pretty, summer blockbusters and romantic comedies, taking the lionshare of the market.
With a small niche of David Lynches, and Stanely Kubriks (I would have thrown Tim Burton in there, but he's been doing formulaic crap for awhile now, as well).Most art is like this in the modern consumer market.
Look at music, 90\% of it is consumer grade pap, and 10\% of it is made by genuine musicians (as artist).
Design is in the same space too, with 90\% being Ikea/Crate and Barrel crap, and the rest being filled by little botique markets.
I could go on.We have the illusion of things being more "artistic" in the past, because all of the formulaic crap is quickly forgotten, and all we remember is the unique or innovative.
Games will be the same way, and already somewhat are.
You remember Duke Nukem, but can you remember what was the big Tom Clancy/WWII game of five or six years ago?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390093</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389225</id>
	<title>Author not looking for art but for porn.</title>
	<author>will\_die</author>
	<datestamp>1245423240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Since the prime definition for art is "the products of human creativity" games definatly are art, as is the way I have the my desk decorated.<br>
However the author of the article just talk how you cannot have art with have nudity.  So based on his thinking bioshock would of been a better game if the females wore no clothing or if the zombie could gang rape Zoey in Left 4 dead.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Since the prime definition for art is " the products of human creativity " games definatly are art , as is the way I have the my desk decorated .
However the author of the article just talk how you can not have art with have nudity .
So based on his thinking bioshock would of been a better game if the females wore no clothing or if the zombie could gang rape Zoey in Left 4 dead .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Since the prime definition for art is "the products of human creativity" games definatly are art, as is the way I have the my desk decorated.
However the author of the article just talk how you cannot have art with have nudity.
So based on his thinking bioshock would of been a better game if the females wore no clothing or if the zombie could gang rape Zoey in Left 4 dead.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390103</id>
	<title>Re:Really? You can't express yourself?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245426840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree with this. There is very little (if anything) preventing an artist from creating a a game. Most games aren't art though - they're entertainment media and consumer fads, although perhaps with some educational or cerebral value. Despite this, many analyses of games as art focus exclusively on large corporate moneymaking ventures: Half-Life, StarCraft, Final Fantasy and the like. As with any medium, the mass-market products tuned to maximize profits are the least likely to be art. Find the artist who creates a unified whole game, rather than a pile of gameplay, music, graphics, and writing. Then we might discover that the art form is not so nascent after all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with this .
There is very little ( if anything ) preventing an artist from creating a a game .
Most games are n't art though - they 're entertainment media and consumer fads , although perhaps with some educational or cerebral value .
Despite this , many analyses of games as art focus exclusively on large corporate moneymaking ventures : Half-Life , StarCraft , Final Fantasy and the like .
As with any medium , the mass-market products tuned to maximize profits are the least likely to be art .
Find the artist who creates a unified whole game , rather than a pile of gameplay , music , graphics , and writing .
Then we might discover that the art form is not so nascent after all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with this.
There is very little (if anything) preventing an artist from creating a a game.
Most games aren't art though - they're entertainment media and consumer fads, although perhaps with some educational or cerebral value.
Despite this, many analyses of games as art focus exclusively on large corporate moneymaking ventures: Half-Life, StarCraft, Final Fantasy and the like.
As with any medium, the mass-market products tuned to maximize profits are the least likely to be art.
Find the artist who creates a unified whole game, rather than a pile of gameplay, music, graphics, and writing.
Then we might discover that the art form is not so nascent after all.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389147</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389639</id>
	<title>Possible spoilers below:</title>
	<author>Steauengeglase</author>
	<datestamp>1245425040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A few months back I was playing the Fallout 3 expansion, The Pitt. The game pretty much assumed that you were going to take the nice guy role and not harm a child and have a sense of guilt when that action results in a city of people being enslaved because you pussed out. I played it, went the route the developers wanted me to take and it had the desired effect. The next day I played through it again and played as a bad guy, only it didn't follow the gravity of the good guy route because they couldn't kill children in games (no one wants to be accused of making a child killer simulator). I walked away feeling slightly jipped, because there were no negative consequences. So yeah, such censorship, even a self imposed one can have an impact.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A few months back I was playing the Fallout 3 expansion , The Pitt .
The game pretty much assumed that you were going to take the nice guy role and not harm a child and have a sense of guilt when that action results in a city of people being enslaved because you pussed out .
I played it , went the route the developers wanted me to take and it had the desired effect .
The next day I played through it again and played as a bad guy , only it did n't follow the gravity of the good guy route because they could n't kill children in games ( no one wants to be accused of making a child killer simulator ) .
I walked away feeling slightly jipped , because there were no negative consequences .
So yeah , such censorship , even a self imposed one can have an impact .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A few months back I was playing the Fallout 3 expansion, The Pitt.
The game pretty much assumed that you were going to take the nice guy role and not harm a child and have a sense of guilt when that action results in a city of people being enslaved because you pussed out.
I played it, went the route the developers wanted me to take and it had the desired effect.
The next day I played through it again and played as a bad guy, only it didn't follow the gravity of the good guy route because they couldn't kill children in games (no one wants to be accused of making a child killer simulator).
I walked away feeling slightly jipped, because there were no negative consequences.
So yeah, such censorship, even a self imposed one can have an impact.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391211</id>
	<title>Controversy</title>
	<author>illiter4te</author>
	<datestamp>1245431700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When the media and the masses think of violent/sexual video games and their affects on society, they are really thinking about children. No one cares what an adult plays for a video game. For you parents out there, whether your child is playing a violent/sexual video game or looking at the female form labeled "art" its all the same.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When the media and the masses think of violent/sexual video games and their affects on society , they are really thinking about children .
No one cares what an adult plays for a video game .
For you parents out there , whether your child is playing a violent/sexual video game or looking at the female form labeled " art " its all the same .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When the media and the masses think of violent/sexual video games and their affects on society, they are really thinking about children.
No one cares what an adult plays for a video game.
For you parents out there, whether your child is playing a violent/sexual video game or looking at the female form labeled "art" its all the same.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389037</id>
	<title>But won't somebody</title>
	<author>wjousts</author>
	<datestamp>1245422640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>think of the children?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</htmltext>
<tokenext>think of the children ?
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>think of the children?
;)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389339</id>
	<title>Very little effect on real ART in games...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245423840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, the censorship can be annoying and ridiculous (eg, GTA series: its OK to murder hundreds in a random crime spree, but god forbid there be hidden, unaccessable content of still-underwear-clad figures bumpin-boots).</p><p>But I think it has very LITTLE effect on art in games.  EG, what effect did censorship have on something like Braid?</p><p>The game developers which are actually serious about doing ART are not interested in building "Sex-laden-splatter-fest-3000".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , the censorship can be annoying and ridiculous ( eg , GTA series : its OK to murder hundreds in a random crime spree , but god forbid there be hidden , unaccessable content of still-underwear-clad figures bumpin-boots ) .But I think it has very LITTLE effect on art in games .
EG , what effect did censorship have on something like Braid ? The game developers which are actually serious about doing ART are not interested in building " Sex-laden-splatter-fest-3000 " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, the censorship can be annoying and ridiculous (eg, GTA series: its OK to murder hundreds in a random crime spree, but god forbid there be hidden, unaccessable content of still-underwear-clad figures bumpin-boots).But I think it has very LITTLE effect on art in games.
EG, what effect did censorship have on something like Braid?The game developers which are actually serious about doing ART are not interested in building "Sex-laden-splatter-fest-3000".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28407629</id>
	<title>Re:Sexual images helpful to minors? (I'm serious)</title>
	<author>MrKaos</author>
	<datestamp>1245518700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> Are you trying to say that you wouldn't have been bothered by watching your parents fuck before your eyes?</p></div></blockquote><p>
I can see it now -- 'Well you're gonna have to learn about sex some day, Michel'.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Are you trying to say that you would n't have been bothered by watching your parents fuck before your eyes ?
I can see it now -- 'Well you 're gon na have to learn about sex some day , Michel' .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Are you trying to say that you wouldn't have been bothered by watching your parents fuck before your eyes?
I can see it now -- 'Well you're gonna have to learn about sex some day, Michel'.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28399969</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28396501</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>mdwh2</author>
	<datestamp>1245409440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not sure that's a useful distinction - the reason we don't think of galleries as art is because the gallery isn't an intrinsic part of the artwork inside. You can take the art elsewhere, put different art in, or mix and match. Galleries also contain many different art pieces, that aren't meant to be considered as a whole.</p><p>If an artist hired a room, and filled it with art that was meant to be taken as a whole, there I think it would be meaningful to refer to the whole thing as the art piece, rather than trying to define it as "a thing with no artistic value that merely contains art".</p><p>Also there's potentially more to art that simply pasted in graphics - for example, storytelling. And even as far as graphics are concerned, the problem is that these days, much of the graphics is driven by the code (e.g., the 3D engine), so it isn't meaningful to distinguish between the game, and the graphics it displays.</p><p>Would you say a movie isn't art either, because it simply "contains" things that are art?</p><p>And even if you're right, this seems entirely pedantic. Okay, so a game itself isn't art, but it contains things that are art, thus the point still stands (e.g., the claim that censorship stifles art in games, or whatever claim is being made).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not sure that 's a useful distinction - the reason we do n't think of galleries as art is because the gallery is n't an intrinsic part of the artwork inside .
You can take the art elsewhere , put different art in , or mix and match .
Galleries also contain many different art pieces , that are n't meant to be considered as a whole.If an artist hired a room , and filled it with art that was meant to be taken as a whole , there I think it would be meaningful to refer to the whole thing as the art piece , rather than trying to define it as " a thing with no artistic value that merely contains art " .Also there 's potentially more to art that simply pasted in graphics - for example , storytelling .
And even as far as graphics are concerned , the problem is that these days , much of the graphics is driven by the code ( e.g. , the 3D engine ) , so it is n't meaningful to distinguish between the game , and the graphics it displays.Would you say a movie is n't art either , because it simply " contains " things that are art ? And even if you 're right , this seems entirely pedantic .
Okay , so a game itself is n't art , but it contains things that are art , thus the point still stands ( e.g. , the claim that censorship stifles art in games , or whatever claim is being made ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not sure that's a useful distinction - the reason we don't think of galleries as art is because the gallery isn't an intrinsic part of the artwork inside.
You can take the art elsewhere, put different art in, or mix and match.
Galleries also contain many different art pieces, that aren't meant to be considered as a whole.If an artist hired a room, and filled it with art that was meant to be taken as a whole, there I think it would be meaningful to refer to the whole thing as the art piece, rather than trying to define it as "a thing with no artistic value that merely contains art".Also there's potentially more to art that simply pasted in graphics - for example, storytelling.
And even as far as graphics are concerned, the problem is that these days, much of the graphics is driven by the code (e.g., the 3D engine), so it isn't meaningful to distinguish between the game, and the graphics it displays.Would you say a movie isn't art either, because it simply "contains" things that are art?And even if you're right, this seems entirely pedantic.
Okay, so a game itself isn't art, but it contains things that are art, thus the point still stands (e.g., the claim that censorship stifles art in games, or whatever claim is being made).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389139</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389119</id>
	<title>Why not?</title>
	<author>rawls</author>
	<datestamp>1245422880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There is no intrinsic quality of the medium that prevents it from being art. There will probably be games developed in the future that will be considered art and there are probably games already out there that qualify.

Whether there will be games that achieve any significant level of artistic quality is a totally different matter.

To use a simplistic argument, let's look at the time and concentration involved. The average game has (conseratively) over ten hours of gameplay, at over 20 frames a second. Compare that to the amount of time it takes a painter to complete one frame or how long a sculptor spends on one model.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is no intrinsic quality of the medium that prevents it from being art .
There will probably be games developed in the future that will be considered art and there are probably games already out there that qualify .
Whether there will be games that achieve any significant level of artistic quality is a totally different matter .
To use a simplistic argument , let 's look at the time and concentration involved .
The average game has ( conseratively ) over ten hours of gameplay , at over 20 frames a second .
Compare that to the amount of time it takes a painter to complete one frame or how long a sculptor spends on one model .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is no intrinsic quality of the medium that prevents it from being art.
There will probably be games developed in the future that will be considered art and there are probably games already out there that qualify.
Whether there will be games that achieve any significant level of artistic quality is a totally different matter.
To use a simplistic argument, let's look at the time and concentration involved.
The average game has (conseratively) over ten hours of gameplay, at over 20 frames a second.
Compare that to the amount of time it takes a painter to complete one frame or how long a sculptor spends on one model.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391465</id>
	<title>Stifles?</title>
	<author>sherriw</author>
	<datestamp>1245432780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ok, not that I'm in favour of censorship, but the implication that violent and sexual themes are the only roads to maturing artistically is nonsense. Games are not stifled because they are being prevented from going down those roads- you as an artist are limited if you can't dream up any other avenues for growth or originality than only those two. I for one <i>truly hope</i> that video games have more directions in which to grow rather than just becoming more violent or sexually explicit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ok , not that I 'm in favour of censorship , but the implication that violent and sexual themes are the only roads to maturing artistically is nonsense .
Games are not stifled because they are being prevented from going down those roads- you as an artist are limited if you ca n't dream up any other avenues for growth or originality than only those two .
I for one truly hope that video games have more directions in which to grow rather than just becoming more violent or sexually explicit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ok, not that I'm in favour of censorship, but the implication that violent and sexual themes are the only roads to maturing artistically is nonsense.
Games are not stifled because they are being prevented from going down those roads- you as an artist are limited if you can't dream up any other avenues for growth or originality than only those two.
I for one truly hope that video games have more directions in which to grow rather than just becoming more violent or sexually explicit.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389477</id>
	<title>It's like speech</title>
	<author>HalAtWork</author>
	<datestamp>1245424380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When you regulate it, people feel stifled and like they have to share important things in private.  When you leave it open, there are bound to be some offensive people and some lunatics.  There is no "win" state, there's always a trade-off.  However, you can always <i>choose</i> to ignore these things as they are not forced on you any more than any other thing.  We all have to deal with things we don't like, and something you may like might be something someone else will find offensive.  There is no please-them-all solution, but we all have to be happy together.  That's where respect comes in, but there's always disrespectful shit disturbers as well.  As a society, we have to grow up and accept and tolerate and respect and understand.  The sooner we accept that, the better.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When you regulate it , people feel stifled and like they have to share important things in private .
When you leave it open , there are bound to be some offensive people and some lunatics .
There is no " win " state , there 's always a trade-off .
However , you can always choose to ignore these things as they are not forced on you any more than any other thing .
We all have to deal with things we do n't like , and something you may like might be something someone else will find offensive .
There is no please-them-all solution , but we all have to be happy together .
That 's where respect comes in , but there 's always disrespectful shit disturbers as well .
As a society , we have to grow up and accept and tolerate and respect and understand .
The sooner we accept that , the better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When you regulate it, people feel stifled and like they have to share important things in private.
When you leave it open, there are bound to be some offensive people and some lunatics.
There is no "win" state, there's always a trade-off.
However, you can always choose to ignore these things as they are not forced on you any more than any other thing.
We all have to deal with things we don't like, and something you may like might be something someone else will find offensive.
There is no please-them-all solution, but we all have to be happy together.
That's where respect comes in, but there's always disrespectful shit disturbers as well.
As a society, we have to grow up and accept and tolerate and respect and understand.
The sooner we accept that, the better.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388991</id>
	<title>Bunk</title>
	<author>Nutria</author>
	<datestamp>1245422400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>He cites a historical comparison between video game and film production</i></p><p>Censorship forces you to either:</p><ol> <li>think hard and cleverly about how to transmit your message while staying within parameters, or,</li> <li>"create" generic pablum.</li></ol><p>Hollywood made a <b>lot</b> of great movies in the Hayes Code era, thus demonstrating that it <b>is</b> possible to create Great Art while refraining from constantly spewing foul language, women hanging out their breasts, constantly showing blood and gore, or hopping into someone else's bed every other moment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He cites a historical comparison between video game and film productionCensorship forces you to either : think hard and cleverly about how to transmit your message while staying within parameters , or , " create " generic pablum.Hollywood made a lot of great movies in the Hayes Code era , thus demonstrating that it is possible to create Great Art while refraining from constantly spewing foul language , women hanging out their breasts , constantly showing blood and gore , or hopping into someone else 's bed every other moment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He cites a historical comparison between video game and film productionCensorship forces you to either: think hard and cleverly about how to transmit your message while staying within parameters, or, "create" generic pablum.Hollywood made a lot of great movies in the Hayes Code era, thus demonstrating that it is possible to create Great Art while refraining from constantly spewing foul language, women hanging out their breasts, constantly showing blood and gore, or hopping into someone else's bed every other moment.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390205</id>
	<title>This FP 7or GNAA</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245427320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><A HREF="http://goat.cx/" title="goat.cx" rel="nofollow">large - keep your member.  GNAA (GAY about who can rant charnel house.</a> [goat.cx]</htmltext>
<tokenext>large - keep your member .
GNAA ( GAY about who can rant charnel house .
[ goat.cx ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>large - keep your member.
GNAA (GAY about who can rant charnel house.
[goat.cx]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391077</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>Creepy</author>
	<datestamp>1245431160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That may depend - some games may be art, others not.  I suspect as the medium develops, some will truly be considered art, and some may be already.  The tale told by Doom the video game may be trivially simplistic and all about blowing things up, but was the tale told by Doom the movie any better?  Why should Doom the movie be considered art and not Doom the game?</p><p>Some people consider literature art, others not.  Is Alice in Wonderland the book art?  How about the pictures in the book in the book or on the cover (most versions are illustrated)?  Is a trashy romance novel art?  How about the cover?  How about the D&amp;D manual?  It certainly isn't literature, but it contains art.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; You will always have the argument of it being interactive vs passive, so the story changes depending on the viewer, but theater is considered art, and improv theater is interactive, so it is possible.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Also if art is something you have to have some emotional attachment to, I'd say at least some video games are art - who doesn't have at least some emotional reaction to Dogmeat (Fallout), Gwen (Guild Wars), April (The Longest Journey), or even Samus (Metroid, though more so in later games)?  I'd even go back to 1984 with the mostly forgotten <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Below\_the\_Root" title="wikipedia.org">Below the Root</a> [wikipedia.org] as any of the three protagonists (and how many other action games [it is essentially a platformer] become unwinnable if you kill ANYONE?).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That may depend - some games may be art , others not .
I suspect as the medium develops , some will truly be considered art , and some may be already .
The tale told by Doom the video game may be trivially simplistic and all about blowing things up , but was the tale told by Doom the movie any better ?
Why should Doom the movie be considered art and not Doom the game ? Some people consider literature art , others not .
Is Alice in Wonderland the book art ?
How about the pictures in the book in the book or on the cover ( most versions are illustrated ) ?
Is a trashy romance novel art ?
How about the cover ?
How about the D&amp;D manual ?
It certainly is n't literature , but it contains art .
    You will always have the argument of it being interactive vs passive , so the story changes depending on the viewer , but theater is considered art , and improv theater is interactive , so it is possible .
    Also if art is something you have to have some emotional attachment to , I 'd say at least some video games are art - who does n't have at least some emotional reaction to Dogmeat ( Fallout ) , Gwen ( Guild Wars ) , April ( The Longest Journey ) , or even Samus ( Metroid , though more so in later games ) ?
I 'd even go back to 1984 with the mostly forgotten Below the Root [ wikipedia.org ] as any of the three protagonists ( and how many other action games [ it is essentially a platformer ] become unwinnable if you kill ANYONE ?
) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That may depend - some games may be art, others not.
I suspect as the medium develops, some will truly be considered art, and some may be already.
The tale told by Doom the video game may be trivially simplistic and all about blowing things up, but was the tale told by Doom the movie any better?
Why should Doom the movie be considered art and not Doom the game?Some people consider literature art, others not.
Is Alice in Wonderland the book art?
How about the pictures in the book in the book or on the cover (most versions are illustrated)?
Is a trashy romance novel art?
How about the cover?
How about the D&amp;D manual?
It certainly isn't literature, but it contains art.
    You will always have the argument of it being interactive vs passive, so the story changes depending on the viewer, but theater is considered art, and improv theater is interactive, so it is possible.
    Also if art is something you have to have some emotional attachment to, I'd say at least some video games are art - who doesn't have at least some emotional reaction to Dogmeat (Fallout), Gwen (Guild Wars), April (The Longest Journey), or even Samus (Metroid, though more so in later games)?
I'd even go back to 1984 with the mostly forgotten Below the Root [wikipedia.org] as any of the three protagonists (and how many other action games [it is essentially a platformer] become unwinnable if you kill ANYONE?
).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389139</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390087</id>
	<title>Perception: Games Are For Kids</title>
	<author>reallocate</author>
	<datestamp>1245426780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The perception is that video games are for kids. As is the case for every medium, parents will decide that they do not want their kids seeinig certain images or hearing certain language regardless of the artistic intent or value of those images or words.</p><p>You can disagree all you want, or poke fun at the "Think of the Children!" syndrome, but you can't fight human nature.</p><p>Aside:  The quest for video games to be accepted as art would acquire more credibility if people heard about it in some context other than attempts to include explicit sex and violence.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The perception is that video games are for kids .
As is the case for every medium , parents will decide that they do not want their kids seeinig certain images or hearing certain language regardless of the artistic intent or value of those images or words.You can disagree all you want , or poke fun at the " Think of the Children !
" syndrome , but you ca n't fight human nature.Aside : The quest for video games to be accepted as art would acquire more credibility if people heard about it in some context other than attempts to include explicit sex and violence .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The perception is that video games are for kids.
As is the case for every medium, parents will decide that they do not want their kids seeinig certain images or hearing certain language regardless of the artistic intent or value of those images or words.You can disagree all you want, or poke fun at the "Think of the Children!
" syndrome, but you can't fight human nature.Aside:  The quest for video games to be accepted as art would acquire more credibility if people heard about it in some context other than attempts to include explicit sex and violence.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389417</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>postbigbang</author>
	<datestamp>1245424140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sorry to be all McLuhanistic on you, but there is the medium, and the message.</p><p>The medium, or dev platform, enables differing kinds of user interaction.</p><p>The content (story line, user interactions, group play, value and weighting of scoring dynamics) is something else entirely.</p><p>Is it art? Sure. There's a dizzying variety of it, too. Some appealing, some clearly un-evolved, some realistic and staggeringly so. To believe that these have no artistic value is a slap in the face of designers everywhere.</p><p>That said: some designers make their livings appealing to a very violent nature based on highly animalistic behavior. But then the movies/cinema does this, too. Is this bad, this ultra-violent trend in some areas of gaming? There's no doubt that whacked people use violent entertainment sources to legitimtize their own behavior. Are we obligated to stop them from doing that by censorship? It's a good question. We're not responsible for them, but we are responsible within the constraints of a civil society to prevent others from reasonable harm. Should there be a sanity-ID card offered to buy these things? Clearly, that's not possible. Sanity is transient. The conundrum of what to do, remains.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry to be all McLuhanistic on you , but there is the medium , and the message.The medium , or dev platform , enables differing kinds of user interaction.The content ( story line , user interactions , group play , value and weighting of scoring dynamics ) is something else entirely.Is it art ?
Sure. There 's a dizzying variety of it , too .
Some appealing , some clearly un-evolved , some realistic and staggeringly so .
To believe that these have no artistic value is a slap in the face of designers everywhere.That said : some designers make their livings appealing to a very violent nature based on highly animalistic behavior .
But then the movies/cinema does this , too .
Is this bad , this ultra-violent trend in some areas of gaming ?
There 's no doubt that whacked people use violent entertainment sources to legitimtize their own behavior .
Are we obligated to stop them from doing that by censorship ?
It 's a good question .
We 're not responsible for them , but we are responsible within the constraints of a civil society to prevent others from reasonable harm .
Should there be a sanity-ID card offered to buy these things ?
Clearly , that 's not possible .
Sanity is transient .
The conundrum of what to do , remains .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry to be all McLuhanistic on you, but there is the medium, and the message.The medium, or dev platform, enables differing kinds of user interaction.The content (story line, user interactions, group play, value and weighting of scoring dynamics) is something else entirely.Is it art?
Sure. There's a dizzying variety of it, too.
Some appealing, some clearly un-evolved, some realistic and staggeringly so.
To believe that these have no artistic value is a slap in the face of designers everywhere.That said: some designers make their livings appealing to a very violent nature based on highly animalistic behavior.
But then the movies/cinema does this, too.
Is this bad, this ultra-violent trend in some areas of gaming?
There's no doubt that whacked people use violent entertainment sources to legitimtize their own behavior.
Are we obligated to stop them from doing that by censorship?
It's a good question.
We're not responsible for them, but we are responsible within the constraints of a civil society to prevent others from reasonable harm.
Should there be a sanity-ID card offered to buy these things?
Clearly, that's not possible.
Sanity is transient.
The conundrum of what to do, remains.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389139</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28392767</id>
	<title>Re:New medium</title>
	<author>Darinbob</author>
	<datestamp>1245438420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Art can have violence or sexuality.  However there is not so much art with gratuitous violence or sexuality I think.  Of course it depends upon how you define "gratuitous".  Right now video games are going for gratuitous because that is what sells, not because they are trying to be artists.  The only reason "art" comes into it is as an excuse to deflect criticism or censorship.<br><br>Also, I think "art" has changed and expanded so much in meaning in recent decades.  It is not longer an expression of artisanship or high craft.  I hesitate to call most performance art "art", juxtaposition of objects to make someone think is not art in my view.  Art is defined by the viewer, not the intentions of the creator or how big a grant they got.<br><br>In my subjective definitions of art, there are games of the past that I'd consider art, some of which had no sexuality or violence.  In fact I think the artistry is diminishing the more the technology improves and the market grows.  Increased graphics and sound realism is not a necessary tool for art.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Art can have violence or sexuality .
However there is not so much art with gratuitous violence or sexuality I think .
Of course it depends upon how you define " gratuitous " .
Right now video games are going for gratuitous because that is what sells , not because they are trying to be artists .
The only reason " art " comes into it is as an excuse to deflect criticism or censorship.Also , I think " art " has changed and expanded so much in meaning in recent decades .
It is not longer an expression of artisanship or high craft .
I hesitate to call most performance art " art " , juxtaposition of objects to make someone think is not art in my view .
Art is defined by the viewer , not the intentions of the creator or how big a grant they got.In my subjective definitions of art , there are games of the past that I 'd consider art , some of which had no sexuality or violence .
In fact I think the artistry is diminishing the more the technology improves and the market grows .
Increased graphics and sound realism is not a necessary tool for art .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Art can have violence or sexuality.
However there is not so much art with gratuitous violence or sexuality I think.
Of course it depends upon how you define "gratuitous".
Right now video games are going for gratuitous because that is what sells, not because they are trying to be artists.
The only reason "art" comes into it is as an excuse to deflect criticism or censorship.Also, I think "art" has changed and expanded so much in meaning in recent decades.
It is not longer an expression of artisanship or high craft.
I hesitate to call most performance art "art", juxtaposition of objects to make someone think is not art in my view.
Art is defined by the viewer, not the intentions of the creator or how big a grant they got.In my subjective definitions of art, there are games of the past that I'd consider art, some of which had no sexuality or violence.
In fact I think the artistry is diminishing the more the technology improves and the market grows.
Increased graphics and sound realism is not a necessary tool for art.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389589</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28393497</id>
	<title>Re:He's got a point!</title>
	<author>Hatta</author>
	<datestamp>1245441120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I want a story, with a beginning, plot development, and an end.</i></p><p>Does it really need a story to be art?  What's the story behind a Jackson Pollock piece?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I want a story , with a beginning , plot development , and an end.Does it really need a story to be art ?
What 's the story behind a Jackson Pollock piece ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I want a story, with a beginning, plot development, and an end.Does it really need a story to be art?
What's the story behind a Jackson Pollock piece?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389803</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390093</id>
	<title>Re:8==U=N=C=E=NS=O=R=E=D==D ~~-\_</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1245426780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What a coincidence, I just post a journal pointing out that <a href="http://slashdot.org/~mcgrew/journal/231741" title="slashdot.org">some mods are idiots,</a> [slashdot.org] and an anonymous troll gets modded "insightful". OK, troll, I'll bite <a href="http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/4/2/163821/5617" title="kuro5hin.org">(I have to).</a> [kuro5hin.org]</p><p>Yes, art is for homos. It's for heteros, too. I pity anyone who is so culturally deprived that they can't appreciate art.</p><p>What's funny is about ten years ago, I was in an online discussion with Charles Broussard, who was of the opinion that videogames were NOT art. I think in the end we agreed to disagree, I wonder if he ever changed his mind? I certainly haven't changed mine, games ARE art. Some are good art and some are bad art, but all are art.</p><p>And I do think that censorship may be keeping the art from advancing, but what is a bigger factor is the fact that the folks who make games don't see them as art.</p><p>My daughter Leila, still an avid gamer, mentioned to me that in the last GTA she got, there's a dope dealer named "Osama". It seems to me that the designers are censoring themselves, and pushing politically correct themes (like dope dealers being terrorists) and their snideness is hurting both their art and the quality of the games themselves.</p><p>It's a long way from Duke Nukem 1, where shooting the Energizer Bunny resulted in points. I remeber when games were a lot more primitive, but a lot more fun. And a lot more artistic.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What a coincidence , I just post a journal pointing out that some mods are idiots , [ slashdot.org ] and an anonymous troll gets modded " insightful " .
OK , troll , I 'll bite ( I have to ) .
[ kuro5hin.org ] Yes , art is for homos .
It 's for heteros , too .
I pity anyone who is so culturally deprived that they ca n't appreciate art.What 's funny is about ten years ago , I was in an online discussion with Charles Broussard , who was of the opinion that videogames were NOT art .
I think in the end we agreed to disagree , I wonder if he ever changed his mind ?
I certainly have n't changed mine , games ARE art .
Some are good art and some are bad art , but all are art.And I do think that censorship may be keeping the art from advancing , but what is a bigger factor is the fact that the folks who make games do n't see them as art.My daughter Leila , still an avid gamer , mentioned to me that in the last GTA she got , there 's a dope dealer named " Osama " .
It seems to me that the designers are censoring themselves , and pushing politically correct themes ( like dope dealers being terrorists ) and their snideness is hurting both their art and the quality of the games themselves.It 's a long way from Duke Nukem 1 , where shooting the Energizer Bunny resulted in points .
I remeber when games were a lot more primitive , but a lot more fun .
And a lot more artistic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What a coincidence, I just post a journal pointing out that some mods are idiots, [slashdot.org] and an anonymous troll gets modded "insightful".
OK, troll, I'll bite (I have to).
[kuro5hin.org]Yes, art is for homos.
It's for heteros, too.
I pity anyone who is so culturally deprived that they can't appreciate art.What's funny is about ten years ago, I was in an online discussion with Charles Broussard, who was of the opinion that videogames were NOT art.
I think in the end we agreed to disagree, I wonder if he ever changed his mind?
I certainly haven't changed mine, games ARE art.
Some are good art and some are bad art, but all are art.And I do think that censorship may be keeping the art from advancing, but what is a bigger factor is the fact that the folks who make games don't see them as art.My daughter Leila, still an avid gamer, mentioned to me that in the last GTA she got, there's a dope dealer named "Osama".
It seems to me that the designers are censoring themselves, and pushing politically correct themes (like dope dealers being terrorists) and their snideness is hurting both their art and the quality of the games themselves.It's a long way from Duke Nukem 1, where shooting the Energizer Bunny resulted in points.
I remeber when games were a lot more primitive, but a lot more fun.
And a lot more artistic.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388883</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389751</id>
	<title>Re:Bunk</title>
	<author>Abcd1234</author>
	<datestamp>1245425460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Hollywood made a lot of great movies in the Hayes Code era, thus demonstrating that it is possible to create Great Art while refraining from constantly spewing foul language, women hanging out their breasts, constantly showing blood and gore, or hopping into someone else's bed every other moment.</i></p><p>Sure, but how many perfectly valid pieces of art never got made because of those very laws?</p><p>Personally, while I don't believe *any* videogame has achieved the level of "art", and while I have serious personal issues with games that glorify random killing (GTA, et al), war, and so forth, I also don't believe those efforts should be censored.  Derided?  Sure.  Criticized?  Absolutely.  But censored?  Hell no.  We westerners claim to live in a free society, where people can speak their minds so long as they don't violate the rights of others... there's no reason games should be treated any differently.</p><p>As an aside, I think the biggest problem games will have, going forward, is the difficulty of independent works, thanks to the sheer expense and manpower required to make a modern game (yes, I've seen games written by amateurs yes, in general, they suck, save for a few exceptions (I'm looking at you Nethack)<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:).  In contrast, a talented guy with a few thousand bucks and a bunch of friends can put together an excellent film (Primer comes to mind).  Modern technology has mad it trivial for any artist to create music in his home.  And it's always been true that painting, writing, and many other artforms have been easily accessible to those with the necessary time and talent.  But games are a whole other animal.  As a consequence, at least for now, I strongly suspect games will remain the purview of the corporation, and that means catering to public whim and taste... which unfortunately means self-censorship.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hollywood made a lot of great movies in the Hayes Code era , thus demonstrating that it is possible to create Great Art while refraining from constantly spewing foul language , women hanging out their breasts , constantly showing blood and gore , or hopping into someone else 's bed every other moment.Sure , but how many perfectly valid pieces of art never got made because of those very laws ? Personally , while I do n't believe * any * videogame has achieved the level of " art " , and while I have serious personal issues with games that glorify random killing ( GTA , et al ) , war , and so forth , I also do n't believe those efforts should be censored .
Derided ? Sure .
Criticized ? Absolutely .
But censored ?
Hell no .
We westerners claim to live in a free society , where people can speak their minds so long as they do n't violate the rights of others... there 's no reason games should be treated any differently.As an aside , I think the biggest problem games will have , going forward , is the difficulty of independent works , thanks to the sheer expense and manpower required to make a modern game ( yes , I 've seen games written by amateurs yes , in general , they suck , save for a few exceptions ( I 'm looking at you Nethack ) : ) .
In contrast , a talented guy with a few thousand bucks and a bunch of friends can put together an excellent film ( Primer comes to mind ) .
Modern technology has mad it trivial for any artist to create music in his home .
And it 's always been true that painting , writing , and many other artforms have been easily accessible to those with the necessary time and talent .
But games are a whole other animal .
As a consequence , at least for now , I strongly suspect games will remain the purview of the corporation , and that means catering to public whim and taste... which unfortunately means self-censorship .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hollywood made a lot of great movies in the Hayes Code era, thus demonstrating that it is possible to create Great Art while refraining from constantly spewing foul language, women hanging out their breasts, constantly showing blood and gore, or hopping into someone else's bed every other moment.Sure, but how many perfectly valid pieces of art never got made because of those very laws?Personally, while I don't believe *any* videogame has achieved the level of "art", and while I have serious personal issues with games that glorify random killing (GTA, et al), war, and so forth, I also don't believe those efforts should be censored.
Derided?  Sure.
Criticized?  Absolutely.
But censored?
Hell no.
We westerners claim to live in a free society, where people can speak their minds so long as they don't violate the rights of others... there's no reason games should be treated any differently.As an aside, I think the biggest problem games will have, going forward, is the difficulty of independent works, thanks to the sheer expense and manpower required to make a modern game (yes, I've seen games written by amateurs yes, in general, they suck, save for a few exceptions (I'm looking at you Nethack) :).
In contrast, a talented guy with a few thousand bucks and a bunch of friends can put together an excellent film (Primer comes to mind).
Modern technology has mad it trivial for any artist to create music in his home.
And it's always been true that painting, writing, and many other artforms have been easily accessible to those with the necessary time and talent.
But games are a whole other animal.
As a consequence, at least for now, I strongly suspect games will remain the purview of the corporation, and that means catering to public whim and taste... which unfortunately means self-censorship.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388991</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390747</id>
	<title>Re:Bunk</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1245429660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Hollywood made a lot of great movies in the Hayes Code era, thus demonstrating that it is possible to create Great Art while refraining from constantly spewing foul language, women hanging out their breasts, constantly showing blood and gore, or hopping into someone else's bed every other moment.</i></p><p>I disagree. Take the westerns of the 30s and 40s; A cowboy shoots another cowboy, who falls down bloodlessly and painlessly. Compare that to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unforgiven" title="wikipedia.org"> <i>Unforgiven</i>.</a> [wikipedia.org] NOT showing the gore made the old movies less realistic, and therefore less good. Hell, the old westerns didn't even show outhouses!</p><p>Compare a gangster movie from that era with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Untouchables\_(1987\_film)" title="wikipedia.org"> <i>The Untouchables</i> </a> [wikipedia.org].</p><p>Sorry, but I think that in general today's movies are far more realistic, and BETTER than the Hayes code movies. If you're going to have a gangster or a murderer, having said gangster say "golly gee" instead of "goddamned fucking shit" is unrealistic and destroys the film's credibility.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hollywood made a lot of great movies in the Hayes Code era , thus demonstrating that it is possible to create Great Art while refraining from constantly spewing foul language , women hanging out their breasts , constantly showing blood and gore , or hopping into someone else 's bed every other moment.I disagree .
Take the westerns of the 30s and 40s ; A cowboy shoots another cowboy , who falls down bloodlessly and painlessly .
Compare that to Unforgiven .
[ wikipedia.org ] NOT showing the gore made the old movies less realistic , and therefore less good .
Hell , the old westerns did n't even show outhouses ! Compare a gangster movie from that era with The Untouchables [ wikipedia.org ] .Sorry , but I think that in general today 's movies are far more realistic , and BETTER than the Hayes code movies .
If you 're going to have a gangster or a murderer , having said gangster say " golly gee " instead of " goddamned fucking shit " is unrealistic and destroys the film 's credibility .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hollywood made a lot of great movies in the Hayes Code era, thus demonstrating that it is possible to create Great Art while refraining from constantly spewing foul language, women hanging out their breasts, constantly showing blood and gore, or hopping into someone else's bed every other moment.I disagree.
Take the westerns of the 30s and 40s; A cowboy shoots another cowboy, who falls down bloodlessly and painlessly.
Compare that to  Unforgiven.
[wikipedia.org] NOT showing the gore made the old movies less realistic, and therefore less good.
Hell, the old westerns didn't even show outhouses!Compare a gangster movie from that era with  The Untouchables  [wikipedia.org].Sorry, but I think that in general today's movies are far more realistic, and BETTER than the Hayes code movies.
If you're going to have a gangster or a murderer, having said gangster say "golly gee" instead of "goddamned fucking shit" is unrealistic and destroys the film's credibility.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388991</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388947</id>
	<title>Re:8==U=N=C=E=NS=O=R=E=D==D ~~-\_</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245422280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>8==C=O=C=K=S=L=A=P==D</p></div><p>Brilliant!  Exquisite!  Darling, you simply <i>must</i> let me exhibit this in my gallery!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>8 = = C = O = C = K = S = L = A = P = = DBrilliant !
Exquisite ! Darling , you simply must let me exhibit this in my gallery !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>8==C=O=C=K=S=L=A=P==DBrilliant!
Exquisite!  Darling, you simply must let me exhibit this in my gallery!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388883</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389727</id>
	<title>Re:Nascence</title>
	<author>Draek</author>
	<datestamp>1245425400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I can sit down with pen and paper and make a caveman drawing but I cannot sit down at my computer and make a Contra clone for an NES emulator? Why? Because the tools that represent pen and paper in this analogy are not open to me. They are closed and guarded by law and by obfuscation. I can look at a Picasso and begin to imitate the colors and angles and feel. I can play a Playstation One game but not imitate.</p></div><p>While it does not invalidate your point, perhaps you're just looking at the wrong era. I remember during the '80s when PC magazines would have a "software of the day" thing where they'd give you the entire source-code (all of two pages!) for a cool app or game so not only was it possible for you to reproduce it and, perhaps, improve on it, it was *expected* from you to do so. The sheer awesomeness of it was one of the factors that drove me into programming, in fact.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I can sit down with pen and paper and make a caveman drawing but I can not sit down at my computer and make a Contra clone for an NES emulator ?
Why ? Because the tools that represent pen and paper in this analogy are not open to me .
They are closed and guarded by law and by obfuscation .
I can look at a Picasso and begin to imitate the colors and angles and feel .
I can play a Playstation One game but not imitate.While it does not invalidate your point , perhaps you 're just looking at the wrong era .
I remember during the '80s when PC magazines would have a " software of the day " thing where they 'd give you the entire source-code ( all of two pages !
) for a cool app or game so not only was it possible for you to reproduce it and , perhaps , improve on it , it was * expected * from you to do so .
The sheer awesomeness of it was one of the factors that drove me into programming , in fact .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can sit down with pen and paper and make a caveman drawing but I cannot sit down at my computer and make a Contra clone for an NES emulator?
Why? Because the tools that represent pen and paper in this analogy are not open to me.
They are closed and guarded by law and by obfuscation.
I can look at a Picasso and begin to imitate the colors and angles and feel.
I can play a Playstation One game but not imitate.While it does not invalidate your point, perhaps you're just looking at the wrong era.
I remember during the '80s when PC magazines would have a "software of the day" thing where they'd give you the entire source-code (all of two pages!
) for a cool app or game so not only was it possible for you to reproduce it and, perhaps, improve on it, it was *expected* from you to do so.
The sheer awesomeness of it was one of the factors that drove me into programming, in fact.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389053</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390139</id>
	<title>It's about enabling people...</title>
	<author>Temujin\_12</author>
	<datestamp>1245427080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While I'm against absolute censorship (with a few extreme exceptions), I am very much for the creation of reliable tools that enable people and families to make informed decisions to control what kinds of material they interact with.</p><p>Fortunately, the internet has stepped up and done quite well at being the kind of tool I see as being effective. If you want to know what kind of material is in a game/movie/song/book/etc. there are sites or blogs full of reviews on whatever you're looking for.</p><p>Case in point, my wife and I recently ditched cable (and by not keeping up with the digital TV switch even local broad cast TV). Honestly, we couldn't justify the cost given how little we ended up watching it and how much inanity there was in many of the shows. Plus, news is better online or on the radio and neither of us are into professional sports. So now we just use Netflix/Redbox or watch shows online. Since what we're watching is not live, there are tons of reviews on the internet of exactly what kind of content (or lack thereof) is in the movie/show. So now we end up watching exactly what we like to watch and our TV watching experience is much better. Interestingly, we've found ourselves watching more independent films than blockbuster films.</p><p>Of course, this means we're a season behind the live TV viewing. But being up on all the latest shows isn't socially important to us so we don't care.</p><p>I feel there's plenty of information out there for people to be in control of what they watch if they take the time. Hopefully, more sites will pop up that are focused on providing an organized way for people to make informed decisions about their media viewing/listening/reading so you don't have to pour through random blog posts all the time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While I 'm against absolute censorship ( with a few extreme exceptions ) , I am very much for the creation of reliable tools that enable people and families to make informed decisions to control what kinds of material they interact with.Fortunately , the internet has stepped up and done quite well at being the kind of tool I see as being effective .
If you want to know what kind of material is in a game/movie/song/book/etc .
there are sites or blogs full of reviews on whatever you 're looking for.Case in point , my wife and I recently ditched cable ( and by not keeping up with the digital TV switch even local broad cast TV ) .
Honestly , we could n't justify the cost given how little we ended up watching it and how much inanity there was in many of the shows .
Plus , news is better online or on the radio and neither of us are into professional sports .
So now we just use Netflix/Redbox or watch shows online .
Since what we 're watching is not live , there are tons of reviews on the internet of exactly what kind of content ( or lack thereof ) is in the movie/show .
So now we end up watching exactly what we like to watch and our TV watching experience is much better .
Interestingly , we 've found ourselves watching more independent films than blockbuster films.Of course , this means we 're a season behind the live TV viewing .
But being up on all the latest shows is n't socially important to us so we do n't care.I feel there 's plenty of information out there for people to be in control of what they watch if they take the time .
Hopefully , more sites will pop up that are focused on providing an organized way for people to make informed decisions about their media viewing/listening/reading so you do n't have to pour through random blog posts all the time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While I'm against absolute censorship (with a few extreme exceptions), I am very much for the creation of reliable tools that enable people and families to make informed decisions to control what kinds of material they interact with.Fortunately, the internet has stepped up and done quite well at being the kind of tool I see as being effective.
If you want to know what kind of material is in a game/movie/song/book/etc.
there are sites or blogs full of reviews on whatever you're looking for.Case in point, my wife and I recently ditched cable (and by not keeping up with the digital TV switch even local broad cast TV).
Honestly, we couldn't justify the cost given how little we ended up watching it and how much inanity there was in many of the shows.
Plus, news is better online or on the radio and neither of us are into professional sports.
So now we just use Netflix/Redbox or watch shows online.
Since what we're watching is not live, there are tons of reviews on the internet of exactly what kind of content (or lack thereof) is in the movie/show.
So now we end up watching exactly what we like to watch and our TV watching experience is much better.
Interestingly, we've found ourselves watching more independent films than blockbuster films.Of course, this means we're a season behind the live TV viewing.
But being up on all the latest shows isn't socially important to us so we don't care.I feel there's plenty of information out there for people to be in control of what they watch if they take the time.
Hopefully, more sites will pop up that are focused on providing an organized way for people to make informed decisions about their media viewing/listening/reading so you don't have to pour through random blog posts all the time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389071</id>
	<title>Why?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245422760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Let me get this straight?  If an artist has to limit the amount of sex and violence then his/her creativity is compromised?  I always thought creativity was the ability to expand and open new and unexplored realms.  I never realized that creativity was so limited in a confined box that removing the box would kill it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Let me get this straight ?
If an artist has to limit the amount of sex and violence then his/her creativity is compromised ?
I always thought creativity was the ability to expand and open new and unexplored realms .
I never realized that creativity was so limited in a confined box that removing the box would kill it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let me get this straight?
If an artist has to limit the amount of sex and violence then his/her creativity is compromised?
I always thought creativity was the ability to expand and open new and unexplored realms.
I never realized that creativity was so limited in a confined box that removing the box would kill it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390737</id>
	<title>Re:New medium</title>
	<author>TubeSteak</author>
	<datestamp>1245429540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>To me art is - or ought to be - something one or two steps up from routine artisanship, sonething that is somehow above and beyond the ordinary.</p></div><p><div class="quote"><p>The first version of Doom may have broken some boundaries and counted as "art", despite its clumsy graphics, but I think the Nth remake of the same theme in stunningly crisp detail and completely naturalistic movements is simply nothing more than cheap and trivial pornography; there is certainly nothing "art" about it any more.</p></div><p>Doom is like a cave painting compared to modern video games.<br>Even those trivial and insignificant rehashes have more art than Doom.<br>Otherwise you're saying that the Nth painting of [landscape] or photo of [famous landmark] "is simply nothing more than cheap and trivial pornography".</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>To me art is - or ought to be - something one or two steps up from routine artisanship , sonething that is somehow above and beyond the ordinary.The first version of Doom may have broken some boundaries and counted as " art " , despite its clumsy graphics , but I think the Nth remake of the same theme in stunningly crisp detail and completely naturalistic movements is simply nothing more than cheap and trivial pornography ; there is certainly nothing " art " about it any more.Doom is like a cave painting compared to modern video games.Even those trivial and insignificant rehashes have more art than Doom.Otherwise you 're saying that the Nth painting of [ landscape ] or photo of [ famous landmark ] " is simply nothing more than cheap and trivial pornography " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To me art is - or ought to be - something one or two steps up from routine artisanship, sonething that is somehow above and beyond the ordinary.The first version of Doom may have broken some boundaries and counted as "art", despite its clumsy graphics, but I think the Nth remake of the same theme in stunningly crisp detail and completely naturalistic movements is simply nothing more than cheap and trivial pornography; there is certainly nothing "art" about it any more.Doom is like a cave painting compared to modern video games.Even those trivial and insignificant rehashes have more art than Doom.Otherwise you're saying that the Nth painting of [landscape] or photo of [famous landmark] "is simply nothing more than cheap and trivial pornography".
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389589</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28392349</id>
	<title>Re:Why is "art" always sex and violence?</title>
	<author>loufoque</author>
	<datestamp>1245436560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Paintings and drawing hardly ever are sex or violence.</p></div></blockquote><p>Huh? What kind of museums did you go to?<br>Most classical paintings are depictions of battles, for example.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Paintings and drawing hardly ever are sex or violence.Huh ?
What kind of museums did you go to ? Most classical paintings are depictions of battles , for example .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Paintings and drawing hardly ever are sex or violence.Huh?
What kind of museums did you go to?Most classical paintings are depictions of battles, for example.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389557</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28392335</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>nEoN nOoDlE</author>
	<datestamp>1245436500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's a silly argument. Is a movie considered art? Why? It's also a "container" for things of high artistic value, be it showing off an actor acting or the lighting or the editing, or the writing. You'll be hard pressed to find an art critic who doesn't consider a movie as art. Why is this not so for a game? It has the same elements, tons of real artists working on it for years at a time, and the good games have a cohesive whole that is more than the sum of the quality of the models or animation. Some games make you feel things - fear, anger, love, pity, etc much more than a museum will by entering and viewing the artwork within. That is what separates it as an art form.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's a silly argument .
Is a movie considered art ?
Why ? It 's also a " container " for things of high artistic value , be it showing off an actor acting or the lighting or the editing , or the writing .
You 'll be hard pressed to find an art critic who does n't consider a movie as art .
Why is this not so for a game ?
It has the same elements , tons of real artists working on it for years at a time , and the good games have a cohesive whole that is more than the sum of the quality of the models or animation .
Some games make you feel things - fear , anger , love , pity , etc much more than a museum will by entering and viewing the artwork within .
That is what separates it as an art form .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's a silly argument.
Is a movie considered art?
Why? It's also a "container" for things of high artistic value, be it showing off an actor acting or the lighting or the editing, or the writing.
You'll be hard pressed to find an art critic who doesn't consider a movie as art.
Why is this not so for a game?
It has the same elements, tons of real artists working on it for years at a time, and the good games have a cohesive whole that is more than the sum of the quality of the models or animation.
Some games make you feel things - fear, anger, love, pity, etc much more than a museum will by entering and viewing the artwork within.
That is what separates it as an art form.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389139</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390343</id>
	<title>Re:Nascence</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245427860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Painting, drawing, photographing do not necessarily require a team. Films do but it is often to create a vision of a director or writer.</p></div><p>I think that videogames and film are a lot more closely related than you give credit for.  I'd also argue that many of the 'playstation one' titles you've played were built from the ground up by small, closely knit groups, and not 50 team conglomerates.</p><p>I'd argue that videogames and film are nearly the same monster - even today's independent, low budget films often hire a team of programmers to create their CG <i>art</i>.  Modern videogames simply add interactivity to the mix.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Why? Because the tools that represent pen and paper in this analogy are not open to me. They are closed and guarded by law and by obfuscation.</p></div><p>Really?  OpenGL, DirectX are both well documented.  You might be able to argue obfuscation - they're both confusing and difficult to master - but certainly they're openly documented and not at all illegal<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Painting , drawing , photographing do not necessarily require a team .
Films do but it is often to create a vision of a director or writer.I think that videogames and film are a lot more closely related than you give credit for .
I 'd also argue that many of the 'playstation one ' titles you 've played were built from the ground up by small , closely knit groups , and not 50 team conglomerates.I 'd argue that videogames and film are nearly the same monster - even today 's independent , low budget films often hire a team of programmers to create their CG art .
Modern videogames simply add interactivity to the mix.Why ?
Because the tools that represent pen and paper in this analogy are not open to me .
They are closed and guarded by law and by obfuscation.Really ?
OpenGL , DirectX are both well documented .
You might be able to argue obfuscation - they 're both confusing and difficult to master - but certainly they 're openly documented and not at all illegal ; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Painting, drawing, photographing do not necessarily require a team.
Films do but it is often to create a vision of a director or writer.I think that videogames and film are a lot more closely related than you give credit for.
I'd also argue that many of the 'playstation one' titles you've played were built from the ground up by small, closely knit groups, and not 50 team conglomerates.I'd argue that videogames and film are nearly the same monster - even today's independent, low budget films often hire a team of programmers to create their CG art.
Modern videogames simply add interactivity to the mix.Why?
Because the tools that represent pen and paper in this analogy are not open to me.
They are closed and guarded by law and by obfuscation.Really?
OpenGL, DirectX are both well documented.
You might be able to argue obfuscation - they're both confusing and difficult to master - but certainly they're openly documented and not at all illegal ;)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389053</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389603</id>
	<title>OMG there goes the point, over there... wait...</title>
	<author>achenaar</author>
	<datestamp>1245424860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You missed it.

How is it possible that there are people saying "Author not looking for art but for porn." or "What I don't understand is how does classifying something as art give it a special dispensation to show material that wouldn't be deemed appropriate in other media." when even TFS let alone TFA say nothing of the sort?<br>
It's a fairly ranty article against censorship that highlights the absurdity in the difference between what can be shown in an 18 rated movie or described in some other art form e.g. literature, and what cannot currently be shown in video games regardless of their rating.<br>
I tend to agree, although there are problems with movie ratings too IMHO.<br>
Why shouldn't a game developer be able to make a story driven game with all the gritty reality of some of the more shocking hollywood movies, while presenting a story that, if it were in movie form, would win huge numbers of writing/cinematography awards showing it's acceptance as a work of art.<br>
It's ridiculous, and I think that's some of what the author was trying to get across.<br>
<br>
Once you can see a video game more as a delivery platform for a story and less as a child's toy, it's fairly simple to grasp.<br>
Well, I think it is anyhow.<br>
Meh.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You missed it .
How is it possible that there are people saying " Author not looking for art but for porn .
" or " What I do n't understand is how does classifying something as art give it a special dispensation to show material that would n't be deemed appropriate in other media .
" when even TFS let alone TFA say nothing of the sort ?
It 's a fairly ranty article against censorship that highlights the absurdity in the difference between what can be shown in an 18 rated movie or described in some other art form e.g .
literature , and what can not currently be shown in video games regardless of their rating .
I tend to agree , although there are problems with movie ratings too IMHO .
Why should n't a game developer be able to make a story driven game with all the gritty reality of some of the more shocking hollywood movies , while presenting a story that , if it were in movie form , would win huge numbers of writing/cinematography awards showing it 's acceptance as a work of art .
It 's ridiculous , and I think that 's some of what the author was trying to get across .
Once you can see a video game more as a delivery platform for a story and less as a child 's toy , it 's fairly simple to grasp .
Well , I think it is anyhow .
Meh .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You missed it.
How is it possible that there are people saying "Author not looking for art but for porn.
" or "What I don't understand is how does classifying something as art give it a special dispensation to show material that wouldn't be deemed appropriate in other media.
" when even TFS let alone TFA say nothing of the sort?
It's a fairly ranty article against censorship that highlights the absurdity in the difference between what can be shown in an 18 rated movie or described in some other art form e.g.
literature, and what cannot currently be shown in video games regardless of their rating.
I tend to agree, although there are problems with movie ratings too IMHO.
Why shouldn't a game developer be able to make a story driven game with all the gritty reality of some of the more shocking hollywood movies, while presenting a story that, if it were in movie form, would win huge numbers of writing/cinematography awards showing it's acceptance as a work of art.
It's ridiculous, and I think that's some of what the author was trying to get across.
Once you can see a video game more as a delivery platform for a story and less as a child's toy, it's fairly simple to grasp.
Well, I think it is anyhow.
Meh.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389439</id>
	<title>Re:Why is "art" always sex and violence?</title>
	<author>hort\_wort</author>
	<datestamp>1245424260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To guess an answer to your question, the target audience is a bunch of angry teens who want to rebel against their parents and/or look cool.  To that end, they'll do anything to test the limits of what they can get away with.  That includes playing violent games with adult humor that they don't even understand yet.  The videogame company, of course, will cater to this mindset in an effort to sell more product.  It's not art.  It's not freedom of speech.  It's money.</p><p>My nephew likes to play GTA4 whenever anyone his age is around.  When it's just his family in the house though, he'll play anything BUT that game.  He got bored with it long ago, like any other game after playing it too long.  I'll grant you that GTA titles can be fun, but they're just another title to me, nothing special.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To guess an answer to your question , the target audience is a bunch of angry teens who want to rebel against their parents and/or look cool .
To that end , they 'll do anything to test the limits of what they can get away with .
That includes playing violent games with adult humor that they do n't even understand yet .
The videogame company , of course , will cater to this mindset in an effort to sell more product .
It 's not art .
It 's not freedom of speech .
It 's money.My nephew likes to play GTA4 whenever anyone his age is around .
When it 's just his family in the house though , he 'll play anything BUT that game .
He got bored with it long ago , like any other game after playing it too long .
I 'll grant you that GTA titles can be fun , but they 're just another title to me , nothing special .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To guess an answer to your question, the target audience is a bunch of angry teens who want to rebel against their parents and/or look cool.
To that end, they'll do anything to test the limits of what they can get away with.
That includes playing violent games with adult humor that they don't even understand yet.
The videogame company, of course, will cater to this mindset in an effort to sell more product.
It's not art.
It's not freedom of speech.
It's money.My nephew likes to play GTA4 whenever anyone his age is around.
When it's just his family in the house though, he'll play anything BUT that game.
He got bored with it long ago, like any other game after playing it too long.
I'll grant you that GTA titles can be fun, but they're just another title to me, nothing special.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389019</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389891</id>
	<title>Re:Nascence</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245426000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i><br>near impossible for me to acquire a Neo Geo developer's license and kit.<br></i></p><p>Why bother, when you can get all of the tools for Windows game development for free, not to mention that Linux has a long history of free tools.</p><p>I think you are limited more by your (lack of) creativity and (lack of) free time.  I know artists who would think nothing of putting 80 hours into a single canvas - why would you think you can get away with less?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>near impossible for me to acquire a Neo Geo developer 's license and kit.Why bother , when you can get all of the tools for Windows game development for free , not to mention that Linux has a long history of free tools.I think you are limited more by your ( lack of ) creativity and ( lack of ) free time .
I know artists who would think nothing of putting 80 hours into a single canvas - why would you think you can get away with less ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>near impossible for me to acquire a Neo Geo developer's license and kit.Why bother, when you can get all of the tools for Windows game development for free, not to mention that Linux has a long history of free tools.I think you are limited more by your (lack of) creativity and (lack of) free time.
I know artists who would think nothing of putting 80 hours into a single canvas - why would you think you can get away with less?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389053</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28392437</id>
	<title>Re:Tired of these stupid debates</title>
	<author>Hatta</author>
	<datestamp>1245436980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Let's stop having these debates and giving the morons who will never understand a voice.<br>They are the same people who claimed that expressionism wasn't art, surrealism wasn't art, pop art wasn't art. They are a pox on humanity.</i></p><p>Problem is, they already have a <a href="http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070721/COMMENTARY/70721001" title="suntimes.com">voice</a> [suntimes.com].</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Let 's stop having these debates and giving the morons who will never understand a voice.They are the same people who claimed that expressionism was n't art , surrealism was n't art , pop art was n't art .
They are a pox on humanity.Problem is , they already have a voice [ suntimes.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let's stop having these debates and giving the morons who will never understand a voice.They are the same people who claimed that expressionism wasn't art, surrealism wasn't art, pop art wasn't art.
They are a pox on humanity.Problem is, they already have a voice [suntimes.com].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389303</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389269</id>
	<title>Precor games</title>
	<author>calcio</author>
	<datestamp>1245423420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>There's a small company called precor games that makes multiple versions of each of their games depending on the level of censorship, their corporate site is <a href="http://www.precor-incorporated.com/" title="precor-incorporated.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.precor-incorporated.com/</a> [precor-incorporated.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a small company called precor games that makes multiple versions of each of their games depending on the level of censorship , their corporate site is http : //www.precor-incorporated.com/ [ precor-incorporated.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a small company called precor games that makes multiple versions of each of their games depending on the level of censorship, their corporate site is http://www.precor-incorporated.com/ [precor-incorporated.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391141</id>
	<title>Art</title>
	<author>Brandybuck</author>
	<datestamp>1245431400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> <em>Now, a blogger at The Tech Report makes the case that censorship of violent and sexual images and themes in video games is precisely what inhibits video games from maturing artistically beyond a nascent form.</em></p></div> </blockquote><p>Sure, because we all know that slasher flicks and porn are the highest artistic form of cinema...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Now , a blogger at The Tech Report makes the case that censorship of violent and sexual images and themes in video games is precisely what inhibits video games from maturing artistically beyond a nascent form .
Sure , because we all know that slasher flicks and porn are the highest artistic form of cinema.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Now, a blogger at The Tech Report makes the case that censorship of violent and sexual images and themes in video games is precisely what inhibits video games from maturing artistically beyond a nascent form.
Sure, because we all know that slasher flicks and porn are the highest artistic form of cinema...
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391533</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>hidannik</author>
	<datestamp>1245433080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>He's what we need to do, hire writers, pay them starvation wages and provide them with shitloads of high quality hallucinogens.</p></div><p> <a href="http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1670" title="shamusyoung.com">Already been done.</a> [shamusyoung.com]  The result was <i>Indigo Prophecy</i> (aka <i>Fahrenheit</i>).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>He 's what we need to do , hire writers , pay them starvation wages and provide them with shitloads of high quality hallucinogens .
Already been done .
[ shamusyoung.com ] The result was Indigo Prophecy ( aka Fahrenheit ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He's what we need to do, hire writers, pay them starvation wages and provide them with shitloads of high quality hallucinogens.
Already been done.
[shamusyoung.com]  The result was Indigo Prophecy (aka Fahrenheit).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388923</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389281</id>
	<title>Perverts arn't artists.</title>
	<author>yourassOA</author>
	<datestamp>1245423480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>They are just perverts who wish they could be pedophiles and serial killers but don't have the balls and would rather fantasize. All alleged art is not art just because someone says it is. And how come games were never called art until sickos wanted to molest children and murder people on their computer screen?</htmltext>
<tokenext>They are just perverts who wish they could be pedophiles and serial killers but do n't have the balls and would rather fantasize .
All alleged art is not art just because someone says it is .
And how come games were never called art until sickos wanted to molest children and murder people on their computer screen ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They are just perverts who wish they could be pedophiles and serial killers but don't have the balls and would rather fantasize.
All alleged art is not art just because someone says it is.
And how come games were never called art until sickos wanted to molest children and murder people on their computer screen?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389959</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245426300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As was pointed out on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. before filmmakers are technicians and not artists so you get the opening of Charlies Angels and the impossible parachute stunt which makes a CNN newsreader want to do the same. So impossible things in videogames are wrong because they appeal to a different demographic than films?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As was pointed out on / .
before filmmakers are technicians and not artists so you get the opening of Charlies Angels and the impossible parachute stunt which makes a CNN newsreader want to do the same .
So impossible things in videogames are wrong because they appeal to a different demographic than films ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As was pointed out on /.
before filmmakers are technicians and not artists so you get the opening of Charlies Angels and the impossible parachute stunt which makes a CNN newsreader want to do the same.
So impossible things in videogames are wrong because they appeal to a different demographic than films?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388923</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388923</id>
	<title>I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>F34nor</author>
	<datestamp>1245422160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>that most people who make video games are technicians rather than artists. I think that the few people who overlap creativity in the story telling or avaunt guard space, rarely overlap with coders or the middle management corporate structure that herds them. So you get Doom-&gt;Quake-&gt;Wolfenstien-&gt;Doom-&gt;Quake games that are just excuses to kill shit with rocket launchers as a development platform.</p><p>There are games that tell stories, Halo, Half-life, Morrowind, &amp; et al. and they're blockbusters. He's what we need to do, hire writers, pay them starvation wages and provide them with shitloads of high quality hallucinogens.</p><p>Or go educational, Immune Attack is really impressive and just needs a little bit of play polishing and graphics massage to be awesome.</p><p>Or just remake really good games, Ultima Underworld, Marathon, Starcontrol, and on and on on new engines to bring real games to the starving masses.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>that most people who make video games are technicians rather than artists .
I think that the few people who overlap creativity in the story telling or avaunt guard space , rarely overlap with coders or the middle management corporate structure that herds them .
So you get Doom- &gt; Quake- &gt; Wolfenstien- &gt; Doom- &gt; Quake games that are just excuses to kill shit with rocket launchers as a development platform.There are games that tell stories , Halo , Half-life , Morrowind , &amp; et al .
and they 're blockbusters .
He 's what we need to do , hire writers , pay them starvation wages and provide them with shitloads of high quality hallucinogens.Or go educational , Immune Attack is really impressive and just needs a little bit of play polishing and graphics massage to be awesome.Or just remake really good games , Ultima Underworld , Marathon , Starcontrol , and on and on on new engines to bring real games to the starving masses .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>that most people who make video games are technicians rather than artists.
I think that the few people who overlap creativity in the story telling or avaunt guard space, rarely overlap with coders or the middle management corporate structure that herds them.
So you get Doom-&gt;Quake-&gt;Wolfenstien-&gt;Doom-&gt;Quake games that are just excuses to kill shit with rocket launchers as a development platform.There are games that tell stories, Halo, Half-life, Morrowind, &amp; et al.
and they're blockbusters.
He's what we need to do, hire writers, pay them starvation wages and provide them with shitloads of high quality hallucinogens.Or go educational, Immune Attack is really impressive and just needs a little bit of play polishing and graphics massage to be awesome.Or just remake really good games, Ultima Underworld, Marathon, Starcontrol, and on and on on new engines to bring real games to the starving masses.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390663</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>tlhIngan</author>
	<datestamp>1245429300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Yea, I started development on a game for iPhone.<br>It would play in the car.<br>It has hypermiling and stunt mode. aka it might promote reckless driving (in a sense).<br>I know people will buy it, but I doubt iTunes would sell it.<br>Is there any place to promote underground iPhone apps that people see?</p></div></blockquote><p>Check out Cydia and jailbreaking. I believe Cydia supports payment for apps as well, as an unofficial app store.</p><p>Of course, given what iTunes has these days, there is a chance they'll carry it, especially with the parental ratings system in place.</p><p>But if not, Cydia is your friend. The market's smaller since it requires jailbreaks, but it's easy enough to do, and Cydia is easy enough to use. For a developer, it's a pretty front end to apt-get.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yea , I started development on a game for iPhone.It would play in the car.It has hypermiling and stunt mode .
aka it might promote reckless driving ( in a sense ) .I know people will buy it , but I doubt iTunes would sell it.Is there any place to promote underground iPhone apps that people see ? Check out Cydia and jailbreaking .
I believe Cydia supports payment for apps as well , as an unofficial app store.Of course , given what iTunes has these days , there is a chance they 'll carry it , especially with the parental ratings system in place.But if not , Cydia is your friend .
The market 's smaller since it requires jailbreaks , but it 's easy enough to do , and Cydia is easy enough to use .
For a developer , it 's a pretty front end to apt-get .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yea, I started development on a game for iPhone.It would play in the car.It has hypermiling and stunt mode.
aka it might promote reckless driving (in a sense).I know people will buy it, but I doubt iTunes would sell it.Is there any place to promote underground iPhone apps that people see?Check out Cydia and jailbreaking.
I believe Cydia supports payment for apps as well, as an unofficial app store.Of course, given what iTunes has these days, there is a chance they'll carry it, especially with the parental ratings system in place.But if not, Cydia is your friend.
The market's smaller since it requires jailbreaks, but it's easy enough to do, and Cydia is easy enough to use.
For a developer, it's a pretty front end to apt-get.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389253</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389749</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>GMFTatsujin</author>
	<datestamp>1245425460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Adventure games have broken fresh ground with intriguing and sophisticated new ways of storytelling, both in genre and mechanics.  I've never seen an FPS or RTS with the kind of eye-popping cultural creativity of, say, Grim Fandango or The Longest Journey.  Those games had excellent writing.</p><p>The Bladerunner game used recombinations of footage to create new instances of basically the same mystery: "Who's the replicant this time."  It helped add replay value to what would otherwise be a straightforward game.</p><p>If you're looking for a remake of Star Control, look no further than <a href="http://sc2.sourceforge.net/" title="sourceforge.net" rel="nofollow">Ur-Quan Masters</a> [sourceforge.net].  I did a review of the new version a few months ago: see the link on my sig.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Adventure games have broken fresh ground with intriguing and sophisticated new ways of storytelling , both in genre and mechanics .
I 've never seen an FPS or RTS with the kind of eye-popping cultural creativity of , say , Grim Fandango or The Longest Journey .
Those games had excellent writing.The Bladerunner game used recombinations of footage to create new instances of basically the same mystery : " Who 's the replicant this time .
" It helped add replay value to what would otherwise be a straightforward game.If you 're looking for a remake of Star Control , look no further than Ur-Quan Masters [ sourceforge.net ] .
I did a review of the new version a few months ago : see the link on my sig .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Adventure games have broken fresh ground with intriguing and sophisticated new ways of storytelling, both in genre and mechanics.
I've never seen an FPS or RTS with the kind of eye-popping cultural creativity of, say, Grim Fandango or The Longest Journey.
Those games had excellent writing.The Bladerunner game used recombinations of footage to create new instances of basically the same mystery: "Who's the replicant this time.
"  It helped add replay value to what would otherwise be a straightforward game.If you're looking for a remake of Star Control, look no further than Ur-Quan Masters [sourceforge.net].
I did a review of the new version a few months ago: see the link on my sig.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388923</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389725</id>
	<title>Stupid Argument</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245425400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I personally dislike video games that are excessively and gratuitously violent and offensive; but neither do I think laws should be passed concerning censorship. Just stick to the rating system... and steer the violent or offensive video games more towards the 'M' or 'AO' ratings. Not that that stops kids from getting a hold of them, but at least the people who care about content have an easy way to decide whether they want the game or not.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I personally dislike video games that are excessively and gratuitously violent and offensive ; but neither do I think laws should be passed concerning censorship .
Just stick to the rating system... and steer the violent or offensive video games more towards the 'M ' or 'AO ' ratings .
Not that that stops kids from getting a hold of them , but at least the people who care about content have an easy way to decide whether they want the game or not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I personally dislike video games that are excessively and gratuitously violent and offensive; but neither do I think laws should be passed concerning censorship.
Just stick to the rating system... and steer the violent or offensive video games more towards the 'M' or 'AO' ratings.
Not that that stops kids from getting a hold of them, but at least the people who care about content have an easy way to decide whether they want the game or not.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389803</id>
	<title>He's got a point!</title>
	<author>g\_adams27</author>
	<datestamp>1245425700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>After all, we all know that it would not have been possible to have such mature artistic works like <i>Lord of the Rings, Atlas Shrugged, The Count of Monte Cristo, The Brothers Karamazov</i>, and <i>Casablanca</i> without the addition of explicit sexual imagery.  And it's clear that such immature games as <i>Half-Life, Zork, Monkey Island, System Shock</i> and <i>Civilization</i> were kept from becoming true works of art by not containing pornographic content.</p><p>.</p><p>Seriously, this article is a joke.  You want a mature game?  (And I use the word "mature" in its ordinary meaning, not as a synonym for "titillating").  <b>Write good stories.</b>  I just finished Thief Gold (again), and was easily able to dismiss the clunky late-90's-style graphics and immerse myself in the <i>fantastic story</i> that unfolds for the player throughout its 13 missions.  I'm starting Thief 2 now, where the storytelling got even better.  Compare that with Crysis - while visually gorgeous, it told a very tired, worn-out story.  (I get to play as a <i>space-marine</i>?  With futuristic weapons? Wow!  And I'm fighting <i>aliens</i> who are coming to earth?  Amazing!)</p><p>.</p><p>Gamemakers: I'm not looking for more violence.  Really, I'm not.  Shooting bad guys is fine, but I don't wistfully dream about a future game where I'll be able to murder housewives and their children.  And I'm not looking for more sexual imagery in my games.  I want a <b>story</b>, with a beginning, plot development, and an end.  I don't want an open-ended game where <b>I</b> have to create my own story because you were too cheap to hire good writers - I want <b>you</b> to pay what it takes to get some writers to write a fantastic tale that I can immerse myself in.  Don't make it pornographic.  Don't make it a blood-fest.  Just make it compelling.  <b>Then</b> you'll have a mature game.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>After all , we all know that it would not have been possible to have such mature artistic works like Lord of the Rings , Atlas Shrugged , The Count of Monte Cristo , The Brothers Karamazov , and Casablanca without the addition of explicit sexual imagery .
And it 's clear that such immature games as Half-Life , Zork , Monkey Island , System Shock and Civilization were kept from becoming true works of art by not containing pornographic content..Seriously , this article is a joke .
You want a mature game ?
( And I use the word " mature " in its ordinary meaning , not as a synonym for " titillating " ) .
Write good stories .
I just finished Thief Gold ( again ) , and was easily able to dismiss the clunky late-90 's-style graphics and immerse myself in the fantastic story that unfolds for the player throughout its 13 missions .
I 'm starting Thief 2 now , where the storytelling got even better .
Compare that with Crysis - while visually gorgeous , it told a very tired , worn-out story .
( I get to play as a space-marine ?
With futuristic weapons ?
Wow ! And I 'm fighting aliens who are coming to earth ?
Amazing ! ) .Gamemakers : I 'm not looking for more violence .
Really , I 'm not .
Shooting bad guys is fine , but I do n't wistfully dream about a future game where I 'll be able to murder housewives and their children .
And I 'm not looking for more sexual imagery in my games .
I want a story , with a beginning , plot development , and an end .
I do n't want an open-ended game where I have to create my own story because you were too cheap to hire good writers - I want you to pay what it takes to get some writers to write a fantastic tale that I can immerse myself in .
Do n't make it pornographic .
Do n't make it a blood-fest .
Just make it compelling .
Then you 'll have a mature game .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>After all, we all know that it would not have been possible to have such mature artistic works like Lord of the Rings, Atlas Shrugged, The Count of Monte Cristo, The Brothers Karamazov, and Casablanca without the addition of explicit sexual imagery.
And it's clear that such immature games as Half-Life, Zork, Monkey Island, System Shock and Civilization were kept from becoming true works of art by not containing pornographic content..Seriously, this article is a joke.
You want a mature game?
(And I use the word "mature" in its ordinary meaning, not as a synonym for "titillating").
Write good stories.
I just finished Thief Gold (again), and was easily able to dismiss the clunky late-90's-style graphics and immerse myself in the fantastic story that unfolds for the player throughout its 13 missions.
I'm starting Thief 2 now, where the storytelling got even better.
Compare that with Crysis - while visually gorgeous, it told a very tired, worn-out story.
(I get to play as a space-marine?
With futuristic weapons?
Wow!  And I'm fighting aliens who are coming to earth?
Amazing!).Gamemakers: I'm not looking for more violence.
Really, I'm not.
Shooting bad guys is fine, but I don't wistfully dream about a future game where I'll be able to murder housewives and their children.
And I'm not looking for more sexual imagery in my games.
I want a story, with a beginning, plot development, and an end.
I don't want an open-ended game where I have to create my own story because you were too cheap to hire good writers - I want you to pay what it takes to get some writers to write a fantastic tale that I can immerse myself in.
Don't make it pornographic.
Don't make it a blood-fest.
Just make it compelling.
Then you'll have a mature game.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389635</id>
	<title>Re:Author not looking for art but for porn.</title>
	<author>DirtyUncleRon69</author>
	<datestamp>1245425040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree with the author, I'm also looking for more porn</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with the author , I 'm also looking for more porn</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with the author, I'm also looking for more porn</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389225</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390235</id>
	<title>The real problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245427440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Video games are censored because people believe that children should not see this and games are for children after all.    Last I checked you stopped being a child when you started attending school and had to interact with others.  A majority of 10-14 year old kids know more about life then most adults sexually and this is age is getting younger as time goes on.  So if people in general would come to the realization of this then the other thing we would need to take care of is irresponsible parents.


Also you have the people that for some reason believe that games are the cause of murder.  I'm open for some ideas for this 'delusion' of people.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Video games are censored because people believe that children should not see this and games are for children after all .
Last I checked you stopped being a child when you started attending school and had to interact with others .
A majority of 10-14 year old kids know more about life then most adults sexually and this is age is getting younger as time goes on .
So if people in general would come to the realization of this then the other thing we would need to take care of is irresponsible parents .
Also you have the people that for some reason believe that games are the cause of murder .
I 'm open for some ideas for this 'delusion ' of people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Video games are censored because people believe that children should not see this and games are for children after all.
Last I checked you stopped being a child when you started attending school and had to interact with others.
A majority of 10-14 year old kids know more about life then most adults sexually and this is age is getting younger as time goes on.
So if people in general would come to the realization of this then the other thing we would need to take care of is irresponsible parents.
Also you have the people that for some reason believe that games are the cause of murder.
I'm open for some ideas for this 'delusion' of people.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28392279</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>Mr\_eX9</author>
	<datestamp>1245436320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Are the engineers responsible for the FPSes you put down not doing art in their own way? Surely in a more practical fashion than in the fine arts, but like any kind of design process there is a certain art associated with a successful creation. Much like the architectural design of a building, the implementation of a game engine (or a board game, etc.) is not cut-and-dried like an algebra problem--there is a lot of room for creative thinking. Furthermore, doesn't the bloody satisfaction of "[killing] shit with rocket launchers" qualify as evoking emotion in the player? Such a game is not going to bring about a renaissance of the human spirit, but evoking an emotion/sensation in your audience is at the core of what art is about.</p><p>Games don't need to tell a story to qualify as art--it's just one way that they can reach that status. For instance, flOw has no story to speak of but is utterly mesmerizing, both visually and auditorily, and was designed to bring the player into psychological flow state. If that's not art, I dunno what is.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Are the engineers responsible for the FPSes you put down not doing art in their own way ?
Surely in a more practical fashion than in the fine arts , but like any kind of design process there is a certain art associated with a successful creation .
Much like the architectural design of a building , the implementation of a game engine ( or a board game , etc .
) is not cut-and-dried like an algebra problem--there is a lot of room for creative thinking .
Furthermore , does n't the bloody satisfaction of " [ killing ] shit with rocket launchers " qualify as evoking emotion in the player ?
Such a game is not going to bring about a renaissance of the human spirit , but evoking an emotion/sensation in your audience is at the core of what art is about.Games do n't need to tell a story to qualify as art--it 's just one way that they can reach that status .
For instance , flOw has no story to speak of but is utterly mesmerizing , both visually and auditorily , and was designed to bring the player into psychological flow state .
If that 's not art , I dunno what is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are the engineers responsible for the FPSes you put down not doing art in their own way?
Surely in a more practical fashion than in the fine arts, but like any kind of design process there is a certain art associated with a successful creation.
Much like the architectural design of a building, the implementation of a game engine (or a board game, etc.
) is not cut-and-dried like an algebra problem--there is a lot of room for creative thinking.
Furthermore, doesn't the bloody satisfaction of "[killing] shit with rocket launchers" qualify as evoking emotion in the player?
Such a game is not going to bring about a renaissance of the human spirit, but evoking an emotion/sensation in your audience is at the core of what art is about.Games don't need to tell a story to qualify as art--it's just one way that they can reach that status.
For instance, flOw has no story to speak of but is utterly mesmerizing, both visually and auditorily, and was designed to bring the player into psychological flow state.
If that's not art, I dunno what is.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388923</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389517</id>
	<title>Flawed premise of argument</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245424560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would compliment the blog post as it's well written and obviously passionately about the topic. The premise of the argument is a bit misunderstood however. It goes like this:</p><p>Games are censored. Games often lack artistic value. However, once upon a time movies were also censored and lacked artistic value. When this censorship was removed, the artistic value of movies increased. Therefore, if games are no longer censored, the artistic value of games should also increase, becaues games are similar to movies</p><p>The flaw is this: games are NOT 'censored'. They have their sales restricted by law to exclude minors if the content is deemed to be adult, however, this is not the same as being prohibited. "Manhunt" and "Postal" were both released - and can be released in the future as well. They simply cannot be shown to minors. Unless there is something I miss, the same age restrictions apply to movies as apply to games.</p><p>The major difference is that it's a lot easier to make an appealing low-budget film (which can, due to its low budget, be any of: risky, risque, driven by a single individual, provocative, produced with few professionals involved) than it is to make an appealing low-budget game. This means that whereas films can have sexual content and be appealing, games have to choose between having sexual content and being appealing just in order to get the budget in (and to the naysayers: yes, there might be a single counterexample in the history of computer gaming, and no, a game that doesn't make it to store shelves will never sell millions at retail prices).</p><p>Actually, fuck all of that. In Japan they make 'hentai dating games' sold for chips - which are clearly very sexual. The author seems to be grinding a fairly narrow point.</p><p>An alternate explanation could be that, with a few exceptions, the films deemed to have 'artistic value' are also produced on a relatively limited budget, perhaps implying a link between willingness to take risk and artistic value. Similarly, there's a few games with artistic value and produced at a high budget, however the mass of 'low budget, recognised artistic value' games seems to be lacking. I'll leave to others to speculate why.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would compliment the blog post as it 's well written and obviously passionately about the topic .
The premise of the argument is a bit misunderstood however .
It goes like this : Games are censored .
Games often lack artistic value .
However , once upon a time movies were also censored and lacked artistic value .
When this censorship was removed , the artistic value of movies increased .
Therefore , if games are no longer censored , the artistic value of games should also increase , becaues games are similar to moviesThe flaw is this : games are NOT 'censored' .
They have their sales restricted by law to exclude minors if the content is deemed to be adult , however , this is not the same as being prohibited .
" Manhunt " and " Postal " were both released - and can be released in the future as well .
They simply can not be shown to minors .
Unless there is something I miss , the same age restrictions apply to movies as apply to games.The major difference is that it 's a lot easier to make an appealing low-budget film ( which can , due to its low budget , be any of : risky , risque , driven by a single individual , provocative , produced with few professionals involved ) than it is to make an appealing low-budget game .
This means that whereas films can have sexual content and be appealing , games have to choose between having sexual content and being appealing just in order to get the budget in ( and to the naysayers : yes , there might be a single counterexample in the history of computer gaming , and no , a game that does n't make it to store shelves will never sell millions at retail prices ) .Actually , fuck all of that .
In Japan they make 'hentai dating games ' sold for chips - which are clearly very sexual .
The author seems to be grinding a fairly narrow point.An alternate explanation could be that , with a few exceptions , the films deemed to have 'artistic value ' are also produced on a relatively limited budget , perhaps implying a link between willingness to take risk and artistic value .
Similarly , there 's a few games with artistic value and produced at a high budget , however the mass of 'low budget , recognised artistic value ' games seems to be lacking .
I 'll leave to others to speculate why .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would compliment the blog post as it's well written and obviously passionately about the topic.
The premise of the argument is a bit misunderstood however.
It goes like this:Games are censored.
Games often lack artistic value.
However, once upon a time movies were also censored and lacked artistic value.
When this censorship was removed, the artistic value of movies increased.
Therefore, if games are no longer censored, the artistic value of games should also increase, becaues games are similar to moviesThe flaw is this: games are NOT 'censored'.
They have their sales restricted by law to exclude minors if the content is deemed to be adult, however, this is not the same as being prohibited.
"Manhunt" and "Postal" were both released - and can be released in the future as well.
They simply cannot be shown to minors.
Unless there is something I miss, the same age restrictions apply to movies as apply to games.The major difference is that it's a lot easier to make an appealing low-budget film (which can, due to its low budget, be any of: risky, risque, driven by a single individual, provocative, produced with few professionals involved) than it is to make an appealing low-budget game.
This means that whereas films can have sexual content and be appealing, games have to choose between having sexual content and being appealing just in order to get the budget in (and to the naysayers: yes, there might be a single counterexample in the history of computer gaming, and no, a game that doesn't make it to store shelves will never sell millions at retail prices).Actually, fuck all of that.
In Japan they make 'hentai dating games' sold for chips - which are clearly very sexual.
The author seems to be grinding a fairly narrow point.An alternate explanation could be that, with a few exceptions, the films deemed to have 'artistic value' are also produced on a relatively limited budget, perhaps implying a link between willingness to take risk and artistic value.
Similarly, there's a few games with artistic value and produced at a high budget, however the mass of 'low budget, recognised artistic value' games seems to be lacking.
I'll leave to others to speculate why.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389701</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>fermion</author>
	<datestamp>1245425280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Not only are most video games made by technicians, but most content is likely driven by marketing.
<p>
Let us look at an analogy.  In a street festival with arts and crafts, there is some art, but most of the people there have paid significant amounts of money for a booth, and they need to recoup the costs plus a profit.  So there may be a few serious artists there, but mostly what you will see are cat motifs, some regurgitated western prints, and variations on naked ladies.  Now all this can be art, but it isn't.  It is carefully constructed product meant to generate profit.
</p><p>
Call me a purist, but art has to do with an original statement made in an original medium in an original context.  It's primary purpose is not to meet some marketing guidelines, but to express the arthur.
</p><p>
There is no lack of video games, and setting age limits or censorship does not seem to hurt the game industry.  The excessive and fantasy violence and sexuality is put in purely to increase sales, and there are limits to what a civilized society will allow to increase profits.
</p><p>
Now, if the motives of the games were changed, if they were purveyed as art rather than purely commercial product, then things would be different.  For instance, when I was a kid I was exposed to many things that kids my age were not exposed to.  That is because much of my time was spent at art events where things sometimes got violent, in a fantastical way, or sexual in a not so fantastical way.   It was not done to drive sales.  It was not a sporting even where they hoped to sell another thousand tickets by have half naked women with little coordination prance around the field.  It was art, and as such was not subject to restrictions of the average commercial product.  This even extended to some television I watched.  Lack of commercial focus meant more leeway in what was acceptable.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not only are most video games made by technicians , but most content is likely driven by marketing .
Let us look at an analogy .
In a street festival with arts and crafts , there is some art , but most of the people there have paid significant amounts of money for a booth , and they need to recoup the costs plus a profit .
So there may be a few serious artists there , but mostly what you will see are cat motifs , some regurgitated western prints , and variations on naked ladies .
Now all this can be art , but it is n't .
It is carefully constructed product meant to generate profit .
Call me a purist , but art has to do with an original statement made in an original medium in an original context .
It 's primary purpose is not to meet some marketing guidelines , but to express the arthur .
There is no lack of video games , and setting age limits or censorship does not seem to hurt the game industry .
The excessive and fantasy violence and sexuality is put in purely to increase sales , and there are limits to what a civilized society will allow to increase profits .
Now , if the motives of the games were changed , if they were purveyed as art rather than purely commercial product , then things would be different .
For instance , when I was a kid I was exposed to many things that kids my age were not exposed to .
That is because much of my time was spent at art events where things sometimes got violent , in a fantastical way , or sexual in a not so fantastical way .
It was not done to drive sales .
It was not a sporting even where they hoped to sell another thousand tickets by have half naked women with little coordination prance around the field .
It was art , and as such was not subject to restrictions of the average commercial product .
This even extended to some television I watched .
Lack of commercial focus meant more leeway in what was acceptable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not only are most video games made by technicians, but most content is likely driven by marketing.
Let us look at an analogy.
In a street festival with arts and crafts, there is some art, but most of the people there have paid significant amounts of money for a booth, and they need to recoup the costs plus a profit.
So there may be a few serious artists there, but mostly what you will see are cat motifs, some regurgitated western prints, and variations on naked ladies.
Now all this can be art, but it isn't.
It is carefully constructed product meant to generate profit.
Call me a purist, but art has to do with an original statement made in an original medium in an original context.
It's primary purpose is not to meet some marketing guidelines, but to express the arthur.
There is no lack of video games, and setting age limits or censorship does not seem to hurt the game industry.
The excessive and fantasy violence and sexuality is put in purely to increase sales, and there are limits to what a civilized society will allow to increase profits.
Now, if the motives of the games were changed, if they were purveyed as art rather than purely commercial product, then things would be different.
For instance, when I was a kid I was exposed to many things that kids my age were not exposed to.
That is because much of my time was spent at art events where things sometimes got violent, in a fantastical way, or sexual in a not so fantastical way.
It was not done to drive sales.
It was not a sporting even where they hoped to sell another thousand tickets by have half naked women with little coordination prance around the field.
It was art, and as such was not subject to restrictions of the average commercial product.
This even extended to some television I watched.
Lack of commercial focus meant more leeway in what was acceptable.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388923</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28392679</id>
	<title>good for censorship</title>
	<author>nEoN nOoDlE</author>
	<datestamp>1245438000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Censorship doesn't stifle creativity; It enhances it. Throughout history you'll find instances of art being what it is because of the threat of censorship. It's the artists job to find the taboos of the day and push them. Mr. Tambourin Man was code word for drug dealers, Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds is about LSD, Star Trek was set in the future because Roddenberry couldn't tell the stories he wanted to without it. Pretty much any significant piece of art has pushed some boundary. I don't know why people now feel there should be an anything goes attitude about art - it practically kills the art of it. What's so artistic about 90\% of video games involving some kind of killing of another living creature? It is that way not because game developers are artists and are pushing the boundaries but because it sells. Games and movies have become so homogenized that we should be questioning their validity as an art form. 90\% of games and movies are sequels or spin-offs of other franchises off different mediums, why are we still considering such a homogenized structure as an unquestionable artform?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Censorship does n't stifle creativity ; It enhances it .
Throughout history you 'll find instances of art being what it is because of the threat of censorship .
It 's the artists job to find the taboos of the day and push them .
Mr. Tambourin Man was code word for drug dealers , Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds is about LSD , Star Trek was set in the future because Roddenberry could n't tell the stories he wanted to without it .
Pretty much any significant piece of art has pushed some boundary .
I do n't know why people now feel there should be an anything goes attitude about art - it practically kills the art of it .
What 's so artistic about 90 \ % of video games involving some kind of killing of another living creature ?
It is that way not because game developers are artists and are pushing the boundaries but because it sells .
Games and movies have become so homogenized that we should be questioning their validity as an art form .
90 \ % of games and movies are sequels or spin-offs of other franchises off different mediums , why are we still considering such a homogenized structure as an unquestionable artform ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Censorship doesn't stifle creativity; It enhances it.
Throughout history you'll find instances of art being what it is because of the threat of censorship.
It's the artists job to find the taboos of the day and push them.
Mr. Tambourin Man was code word for drug dealers, Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds is about LSD, Star Trek was set in the future because Roddenberry couldn't tell the stories he wanted to without it.
Pretty much any significant piece of art has pushed some boundary.
I don't know why people now feel there should be an anything goes attitude about art - it practically kills the art of it.
What's so artistic about 90\% of video games involving some kind of killing of another living creature?
It is that way not because game developers are artists and are pushing the boundaries but because it sells.
Games and movies have become so homogenized that we should be questioning their validity as an art form.
90\% of games and movies are sequels or spin-offs of other franchises off different mediums, why are we still considering such a homogenized structure as an unquestionable artform?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389019</id>
	<title>Why is "art" always sex and violence?</title>
	<author>Rog-Mahal</author>
	<datestamp>1245422580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>On some level I guess it's kind of sad that violence and sex seem to be the only two themes that will allow games to mature as an art form. That being said, why shouldn't videogames be protected as freedom of speech just like other forms of media? Ultimately it should be up to the consumer (or the consumer's parents) what they choose to purchase and use.</htmltext>
<tokenext>On some level I guess it 's kind of sad that violence and sex seem to be the only two themes that will allow games to mature as an art form .
That being said , why should n't videogames be protected as freedom of speech just like other forms of media ?
Ultimately it should be up to the consumer ( or the consumer 's parents ) what they choose to purchase and use .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On some level I guess it's kind of sad that violence and sex seem to be the only two themes that will allow games to mature as an art form.
That being said, why shouldn't videogames be protected as freedom of speech just like other forms of media?
Ultimately it should be up to the consumer (or the consumer's parents) what they choose to purchase and use.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28399969</id>
	<title>Re:Sexual images helpful to minors? (I'm serious)</title>
	<author>4D6963</author>
	<datestamp>1245530460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Are you trying to say that you wouldn't have been bothered by watching your parents fuck before your eyes?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Are you trying to say that you would n't have been bothered by watching your parents fuck before your eyes ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are you trying to say that you wouldn't have been bothered by watching your parents fuck before your eyes?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390631</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390523</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>Cornflake917</author>
	<datestamp>1245428700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>that most people who make video games are technicians rather than artists</p></div><p>How did you come up with this conclusion?  Do you work in the industry, or have conclusive evidence that supports this?</p><p>Game design draws from many fields such as marketing, business, engineering, computer science, visual art, sociology, technical writing, and so on.  I've never got the feeling that game designers in general revolve round any one of these specific fields, but I could be wrong.  However, I'm pretty sure most companies have technical people working on technical things, and artsy creative people working on artsy creative things.  I would be surprised if Doom 3 didn't have their own team of writers, maybe crappy ones, creating an environment for that game.</p><p>I really don't think there is a "real problem" with the video game industry.  It's a billion dollar industry that generates more revenue than the film industry.  There are plenty of really great games that have come out recently, and if you disagree with me, I'm willing to bet you're looking in the wrong places.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>that most people who make video games are technicians rather than artistsHow did you come up with this conclusion ?
Do you work in the industry , or have conclusive evidence that supports this ? Game design draws from many fields such as marketing , business , engineering , computer science , visual art , sociology , technical writing , and so on .
I 've never got the feeling that game designers in general revolve round any one of these specific fields , but I could be wrong .
However , I 'm pretty sure most companies have technical people working on technical things , and artsy creative people working on artsy creative things .
I would be surprised if Doom 3 did n't have their own team of writers , maybe crappy ones , creating an environment for that game.I really do n't think there is a " real problem " with the video game industry .
It 's a billion dollar industry that generates more revenue than the film industry .
There are plenty of really great games that have come out recently , and if you disagree with me , I 'm willing to bet you 're looking in the wrong places .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>that most people who make video games are technicians rather than artistsHow did you come up with this conclusion?
Do you work in the industry, or have conclusive evidence that supports this?Game design draws from many fields such as marketing, business, engineering, computer science, visual art, sociology, technical writing, and so on.
I've never got the feeling that game designers in general revolve round any one of these specific fields, but I could be wrong.
However, I'm pretty sure most companies have technical people working on technical things, and artsy creative people working on artsy creative things.
I would be surprised if Doom 3 didn't have their own team of writers, maybe crappy ones, creating an environment for that game.I really don't think there is a "real problem" with the video game industry.
It's a billion dollar industry that generates more revenue than the film industry.
There are plenty of really great games that have come out recently, and if you disagree with me, I'm willing to bet you're looking in the wrong places.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388923</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28393017</id>
	<title>Re:Bunk</title>
	<author>lupis42</author>
	<datestamp>1245439440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sure, it is *possible*.  On the other hand, we'll never know what more they might have made, and how much better or worse it would have been, if all that hard clever thinking had been put to some better use.</p><p>It is also *possible* for you to live a full happy life with only one kidney, and many people do, but that doesn't make it a good thing to lose a kidney, just a slightly less bad thing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure , it is * possible * .
On the other hand , we 'll never know what more they might have made , and how much better or worse it would have been , if all that hard clever thinking had been put to some better use.It is also * possible * for you to live a full happy life with only one kidney , and many people do , but that does n't make it a good thing to lose a kidney , just a slightly less bad thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure, it is *possible*.
On the other hand, we'll never know what more they might have made, and how much better or worse it would have been, if all that hard clever thinking had been put to some better use.It is also *possible* for you to live a full happy life with only one kidney, and many people do, but that doesn't make it a good thing to lose a kidney, just a slightly less bad thing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388991</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390659</id>
	<title>Re:8==U=N=C=E=NS=O=R=E=D==D ~~-\_</title>
	<author>dword</author>
	<datestamp>1245429240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Welcome to Slashdot, the only place where a comment that focuses on "cockslap" gets modded Insightful.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Welcome to Slashdot , the only place where a comment that focuses on " cockslap " gets modded Insightful .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Welcome to Slashdot, the only place where a comment that focuses on "cockslap" gets modded Insightful.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388883</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389473</id>
	<title>Absolutely..</title>
	<author>bigattichouse</author>
	<datestamp>1245424380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I mean, imagine Citizen Kane  without violence and breasts... it wouldn't be the masterpiece compared to House of 1000 corpses.  I agree more boobies and dismemberment should be in every film to bring it to a mature stage.  OH! I get it, he's saying Botticelli boobies == art<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and those Medieval frescos of battle.  Got it.
<br> <br>
Something is Art because it expresses some emotion rooted in the human experience that causes a cathartic reaction in the observer, or some reaction (yeah, I suppose confusion counts)... kind of like a very convoluted form of conversation between an artist and an observer.
<br> <br>
Boobies are just boobies, death is death, violence is violence and has no relevency to whether something is art or not.  But the absense of Boobies != absense of Art.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I mean , imagine Citizen Kane without violence and breasts... it would n't be the masterpiece compared to House of 1000 corpses .
I agree more boobies and dismemberment should be in every film to bring it to a mature stage .
OH ! I get it , he 's saying Botticelli boobies = = art ... and those Medieval frescos of battle .
Got it .
Something is Art because it expresses some emotion rooted in the human experience that causes a cathartic reaction in the observer , or some reaction ( yeah , I suppose confusion counts ) ... kind of like a very convoluted form of conversation between an artist and an observer .
Boobies are just boobies , death is death , violence is violence and has no relevency to whether something is art or not .
But the absense of Boobies ! = absense of Art .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I mean, imagine Citizen Kane  without violence and breasts... it wouldn't be the masterpiece compared to House of 1000 corpses.
I agree more boobies and dismemberment should be in every film to bring it to a mature stage.
OH! I get it, he's saying Botticelli boobies == art ... and those Medieval frescos of battle.
Got it.
Something is Art because it expresses some emotion rooted in the human experience that causes a cathartic reaction in the observer, or some reaction (yeah, I suppose confusion counts)... kind of like a very convoluted form of conversation between an artist and an observer.
Boobies are just boobies, death is death, violence is violence and has no relevency to whether something is art or not.
But the absense of Boobies != absense of Art.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28391383</id>
	<title>In other news...</title>
	<author>Torodung</author>
	<datestamp>1245432420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This just in...</p><p>The rhyme scheme and number of lines specified in a sonnet format stifled Shakespeare's artistry, the Comics Code killed all creativity and relevance in the comics industry, and censoring the word "hell" from the title of the South Park movie kept Trey and Matt from making the title to "Bigger, Longer, and Uncut" obscene and graphic.</p><p>Reality fail. The only thing that can effectively censor <b>actual artists</b> is medication.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;^)</p><p>--<br>Toro</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This just in...The rhyme scheme and number of lines specified in a sonnet format stifled Shakespeare 's artistry , the Comics Code killed all creativity and relevance in the comics industry , and censoring the word " hell " from the title of the South Park movie kept Trey and Matt from making the title to " Bigger , Longer , and Uncut " obscene and graphic.Reality fail .
The only thing that can effectively censor actual artists is medication .
; ^ ) --Toro</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This just in...The rhyme scheme and number of lines specified in a sonnet format stifled Shakespeare's artistry, the Comics Code killed all creativity and relevance in the comics industry, and censoring the word "hell" from the title of the South Park movie kept Trey and Matt from making the title to "Bigger, Longer, and Uncut" obscene and graphic.Reality fail.
The only thing that can effectively censor actual artists is medication.
;^)--Toro</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389967</id>
	<title>Explicit content does not make art</title>
	<author>Carbaholic</author>
	<datestamp>1245426300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While sex and violence are a part of many art pieces, they are not part of all of them, and I would venture to say not part of most of them. The purpose of contemporary conceptual art is to make people feel a certain way or explore new ideas, not about being edgy. I do not usually like Art that has the sole purpose of being edgy. Artists who take the time to create something that makes the viewer feel or think something meaningful is better by far than art that simply shocks the viewer.</p><p>Also, saying that video game censorship is impeding them from becoming art is like saying that the movie rating system is keeping hollywood movies from becoming art. The very idea that these huge commercial video games would ever become art is just plain silly. On the other hand, there are more venues to distribute indipendent video games then there ever have been and some of these games are becoming more artistic. I haven't played one that I would consider high art yet, but I have played some very creative games that are moving in that direction.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While sex and violence are a part of many art pieces , they are not part of all of them , and I would venture to say not part of most of them .
The purpose of contemporary conceptual art is to make people feel a certain way or explore new ideas , not about being edgy .
I do not usually like Art that has the sole purpose of being edgy .
Artists who take the time to create something that makes the viewer feel or think something meaningful is better by far than art that simply shocks the viewer.Also , saying that video game censorship is impeding them from becoming art is like saying that the movie rating system is keeping hollywood movies from becoming art .
The very idea that these huge commercial video games would ever become art is just plain silly .
On the other hand , there are more venues to distribute indipendent video games then there ever have been and some of these games are becoming more artistic .
I have n't played one that I would consider high art yet , but I have played some very creative games that are moving in that direction .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While sex and violence are a part of many art pieces, they are not part of all of them, and I would venture to say not part of most of them.
The purpose of contemporary conceptual art is to make people feel a certain way or explore new ideas, not about being edgy.
I do not usually like Art that has the sole purpose of being edgy.
Artists who take the time to create something that makes the viewer feel or think something meaningful is better by far than art that simply shocks the viewer.Also, saying that video game censorship is impeding them from becoming art is like saying that the movie rating system is keeping hollywood movies from becoming art.
The very idea that these huge commercial video games would ever become art is just plain silly.
On the other hand, there are more venues to distribute indipendent video games then there ever have been and some of these games are becoming more artistic.
I haven't played one that I would consider high art yet, but I have played some very creative games that are moving in that direction.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389253</id>
	<title>Re:I think the real problem is...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245423360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yea, I started development on a game for iPhone. <br>It would play in the car.<br>It has hypermiling and stunt mode. aka it might promote reckless driving (in a sense). <br>I know people will buy it, but I doubt iTunes would sell it. <br>Is there any place to promote underground iPhone apps that people see?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yea , I started development on a game for iPhone .
It would play in the car.It has hypermiling and stunt mode .
aka it might promote reckless driving ( in a sense ) .
I know people will buy it , but I doubt iTunes would sell it .
Is there any place to promote underground iPhone apps that people see ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yea, I started development on a game for iPhone.
It would play in the car.It has hypermiling and stunt mode.
aka it might promote reckless driving (in a sense).
I know people will buy it, but I doubt iTunes would sell it.
Is there any place to promote underground iPhone apps that people see?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388923</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390187</id>
	<title>Are Games More Dangerous Art?</title>
	<author>InsertCleverUsername</author>
	<datestamp>1245427260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am a strong opponent of censorship, but I wonder if society might want to be more careful with games than we are with other media.  Reading or watching <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita" title="wikipedia.org">Lolita</a> [wikipedia.org] seems much less dangerous a thing than playing Humbert Humbert in a FPS environment.  And where will we be in 20 years, when your NeuroPlug(tm) makes the gaming experience almost indiscernible from reality?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am a strong opponent of censorship , but I wonder if society might want to be more careful with games than we are with other media .
Reading or watching Lolita [ wikipedia.org ] seems much less dangerous a thing than playing Humbert Humbert in a FPS environment .
And where will we be in 20 years , when your NeuroPlug ( tm ) makes the gaming experience almost indiscernible from reality ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am a strong opponent of censorship, but I wonder if society might want to be more careful with games than we are with other media.
Reading or watching Lolita [wikipedia.org] seems much less dangerous a thing than playing Humbert Humbert in a FPS environment.
And where will we be in 20 years, when your NeuroPlug(tm) makes the gaming experience almost indiscernible from reality?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389721</id>
	<title>Re:New medium</title>
	<author>tverbeek</author>
	<datestamp>1245425340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Film isn't the only prior form of new media to experience this.  Comics went through a similar period of censorship in the US, with Fredric Wertham's "Seduction of the Innocent" as its bible.  This led to Congressional hearings in the 1950s and resulted in the creation of the Comics Code Authority, an industry self-censorship board that effectively killed off most genres of comic books (e.g. crime, horror, even romance and westerns), leaving only superhero and funny-animal books that were suitable for young children.  It's only in the last couple decades that commercially viable comics with grown-up themes (Watchmen being one of the early examples) have re-emerged, and the CCA fading into irrelevance.  The film industry weathered the Hayes Code more successfully, continuing to get intelligent, adult-oriented fare to the public even at the height of censorship (albeit in "sanitized" form); comics did not.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Film is n't the only prior form of new media to experience this .
Comics went through a similar period of censorship in the US , with Fredric Wertham 's " Seduction of the Innocent " as its bible .
This led to Congressional hearings in the 1950s and resulted in the creation of the Comics Code Authority , an industry self-censorship board that effectively killed off most genres of comic books ( e.g .
crime , horror , even romance and westerns ) , leaving only superhero and funny-animal books that were suitable for young children .
It 's only in the last couple decades that commercially viable comics with grown-up themes ( Watchmen being one of the early examples ) have re-emerged , and the CCA fading into irrelevance .
The film industry weathered the Hayes Code more successfully , continuing to get intelligent , adult-oriented fare to the public even at the height of censorship ( albeit in " sanitized " form ) ; comics did not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Film isn't the only prior form of new media to experience this.
Comics went through a similar period of censorship in the US, with Fredric Wertham's "Seduction of the Innocent" as its bible.
This led to Congressional hearings in the 1950s and resulted in the creation of the Comics Code Authority, an industry self-censorship board that effectively killed off most genres of comic books (e.g.
crime, horror, even romance and westerns), leaving only superhero and funny-animal books that were suitable for young children.
It's only in the last couple decades that commercially viable comics with grown-up themes (Watchmen being one of the early examples) have re-emerged, and the CCA fading into irrelevance.
The film industry weathered the Hayes Code more successfully, continuing to get intelligent, adult-oriented fare to the public even at the height of censorship (albeit in "sanitized" form); comics did not.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388939</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390649</id>
	<title>I don't buy games because...</title>
	<author>techprophet</author>
	<datestamp>1245429240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't buy games because they're art. I buy them because they are fun. Art games are rarely fun, and fun games are rarely art.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't buy games because they 're art .
I buy them because they are fun .
Art games are rarely fun , and fun games are rarely art .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't buy games because they're art.
I buy them because they are fun.
Art games are rarely fun, and fun games are rarely art.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_19_0626204_12</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388991
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390747
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	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28388923
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389139
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28396501
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_19_0626204_40</id>
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http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389139
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	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28390631
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28399969
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28407629
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_19_0626204_19</id>
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http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_19_0626204.28389139
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