<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_06_18_2310211</id>
	<title>Univ. of Wisconsin's 30-Year-Old Payroll System Needs a $40 Million Fix</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1245324480000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>jaroslav writes <i>"The University of Wisconsin is attempting to update a payroll system they have had in place since 1975, but spent $28.4 million in a 2004 attempt with no results, and now is experiencing new overruns in cost and time after 'not hav[ing] the full picture of how complex this project would be.' The current estimate of the redesign is <a href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-wi-uwsystempayroll,0,2597575.story">$12 million and years of further work on top of the money already spent</a>."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>jaroslav writes " The University of Wisconsin is attempting to update a payroll system they have had in place since 1975 , but spent $ 28.4 million in a 2004 attempt with no results , and now is experiencing new overruns in cost and time after 'not hav [ ing ] the full picture of how complex this project would be .
' The current estimate of the redesign is $ 12 million and years of further work on top of the money already spent .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>jaroslav writes "The University of Wisconsin is attempting to update a payroll system they have had in place since 1975, but spent $28.4 million in a 2004 attempt with no results, and now is experiencing new overruns in cost and time after 'not hav[ing] the full picture of how complex this project would be.
' The current estimate of the redesign is $12 million and years of further work on top of the money already spent.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383507</id>
	<title>They tried Lawson first???  COBOL programmers?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245331860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's the funny part...  They tried to implement Lawson first, where the core business processes are coded in...  wait for it...  COBOL!</p><p>Lawson's whole framework (unless things have changed in the last 5 years, it's been a while since I've worked with it) when running on windoze or UNIX basically emulates (poorly) a mainframe doing CICS transactions and then they have a couple layers on top of that to give it web interface.  Even funnier is that running it on windoze requires an install of a basic *nix environment (similar to cygwin) so that the environment can run on top of that and then run it's COBOL/CICS-like environment (followed by another 2 layers to bring it to a browser).</p><p>I'm sure PeopleSoft will be so much better...<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:|</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's the funny part... They tried to implement Lawson first , where the core business processes are coded in... wait for it... COBOL ! Lawson 's whole framework ( unless things have changed in the last 5 years , it 's been a while since I 've worked with it ) when running on windoze or UNIX basically emulates ( poorly ) a mainframe doing CICS transactions and then they have a couple layers on top of that to give it web interface .
Even funnier is that running it on windoze requires an install of a basic * nix environment ( similar to cygwin ) so that the environment can run on top of that and then run it 's COBOL/CICS-like environment ( followed by another 2 layers to bring it to a browser ) .I 'm sure PeopleSoft will be so much better... : |</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's the funny part...  They tried to implement Lawson first, where the core business processes are coded in...  wait for it...  COBOL!Lawson's whole framework (unless things have changed in the last 5 years, it's been a while since I've worked with it) when running on windoze or UNIX basically emulates (poorly) a mainframe doing CICS transactions and then they have a couple layers on top of that to give it web interface.
Even funnier is that running it on windoze requires an install of a basic *nix environment (similar to cygwin) so that the environment can run on top of that and then run it's COBOL/CICS-like environment (followed by another 2 layers to bring it to a browser).I'm sure PeopleSoft will be so much better... :|</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383005</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245329700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree completely - Does a payroll system honestly cost 28 million dollars? NO! I've been in the software business for a while now and even enterprise level software doesn't cost this much to maintain or code for that matter! And what's the problem with legacy systems anyway? IBM seems to be doing just fine, and they are riddled with outdated systems.</p><p>Your right - these people are supposed to be working for an institution of higher education....really people. Come on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree completely - Does a payroll system honestly cost 28 million dollars ?
NO ! I 've been in the software business for a while now and even enterprise level software does n't cost this much to maintain or code for that matter !
And what 's the problem with legacy systems anyway ?
IBM seems to be doing just fine , and they are riddled with outdated systems.Your right - these people are supposed to be working for an institution of higher education....really people .
Come on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree completely - Does a payroll system honestly cost 28 million dollars?
NO! I've been in the software business for a while now and even enterprise level software doesn't cost this much to maintain or code for that matter!
And what's the problem with legacy systems anyway?
IBM seems to be doing just fine, and they are riddled with outdated systems.Your right - these people are supposed to be working for an institution of higher education....really people.
Come on.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385615</id>
	<title>Re:I dont understand.</title>
	<author>nicolas.kassis</author>
	<datestamp>1245349140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd be surprised if they had that many programmers, my experience with university ERP stuff points to much less than that. More managers and trainers, and they probably already have what they consider enough (as in upper management)  sys admins on staff anyway. They are outsourcing this stuff so, you have the profit margin to consider.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd be surprised if they had that many programmers , my experience with university ERP stuff points to much less than that .
More managers and trainers , and they probably already have what they consider enough ( as in upper management ) sys admins on staff anyway .
They are outsourcing this stuff so , you have the profit margin to consider .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd be surprised if they had that many programmers, my experience with university ERP stuff points to much less than that.
More managers and trainers, and they probably already have what they consider enough (as in upper management)  sys admins on staff anyway.
They are outsourcing this stuff so, you have the profit margin to consider.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384851</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28391745</id>
	<title>Re:Efficiency</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1245433920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh shut up. This is no different then what any large organization goes through. The only difference is with government agencies it's public, where as in corporation it's buried.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh shut up .
This is no different then what any large organization goes through .
The only difference is with government agencies it 's public , where as in corporation it 's buried .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh shut up.
This is no different then what any large organization goes through.
The only difference is with government agencies it's public, where as in corporation it's buried.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383801</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384797</id>
	<title>Armchair Quarterbacking: Sungard Higher Education</title>
	<author>Nick Driver</author>
	<datestamp>1245340500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If they would've just simply bought the <a href="http://www.sungardhe.com/" title="sungardhe.com"> Sungard "Banner" system </a> [sungardhe.com] first, they would've had a complete turnkey system, in common use by dozens of other huge universities, and it would've already been implemented in about a 24-30 month cycle, including data conversion and end-user training, and probably would've come in less than $25M including all hardware, software, implementation fees, data conversion fees, and end-user training done on-site.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If they would 've just simply bought the Sungard " Banner " system [ sungardhe.com ] first , they would 've had a complete turnkey system , in common use by dozens of other huge universities , and it would 've already been implemented in about a 24-30 month cycle , including data conversion and end-user training , and probably would 've come in less than $ 25M including all hardware , software , implementation fees , data conversion fees , and end-user training done on-site .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If they would've just simply bought the  Sungard "Banner" system  [sungardhe.com] first, they would've had a complete turnkey system, in common use by dozens of other huge universities, and it would've already been implemented in about a 24-30 month cycle, including data conversion and end-user training, and probably would've come in less than $25M including all hardware, software, implementation fees, data conversion fees, and end-user training done on-site.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383055</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28447801</id>
	<title>cheap wow gold</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245764820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
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</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384839</id>
	<title>Re:Here's the real story</title>
	<author>lawpoop</author>
	<datestamp>1245340740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>They brought an old guy in to deal with Y2K issues. They agreed to pay him well, but then got chintzy when it turned out that there really wasn't much that he needed to do. They eventually did pay him, but kicked him to the curb again afterwards.</p></div><p>Hey, I'm really on the side of good living wages for workers and all, but what exactly were the employers supposed to do in this case? Give the guy a salary and retirement because he spent 160 hours hacking COBOL in December of 1999? He was charging a decent hourly rate, right?<br> <br>This would be a situation where someone in retirement might be a consultant, and get paid hourly.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>They brought an old guy in to deal with Y2K issues .
They agreed to pay him well , but then got chintzy when it turned out that there really was n't much that he needed to do .
They eventually did pay him , but kicked him to the curb again afterwards.Hey , I 'm really on the side of good living wages for workers and all , but what exactly were the employers supposed to do in this case ?
Give the guy a salary and retirement because he spent 160 hours hacking COBOL in December of 1999 ?
He was charging a decent hourly rate , right ?
This would be a situation where someone in retirement might be a consultant , and get paid hourly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They brought an old guy in to deal with Y2K issues.
They agreed to pay him well, but then got chintzy when it turned out that there really wasn't much that he needed to do.
They eventually did pay him, but kicked him to the curb again afterwards.Hey, I'm really on the side of good living wages for workers and all, but what exactly were the employers supposed to do in this case?
Give the guy a salary and retirement because he spent 160 hours hacking COBOL in December of 1999?
He was charging a decent hourly rate, right?
This would be a situation where someone in retirement might be a consultant, and get paid hourly.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383469</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28390697</id>
	<title>Re:Bad Title</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1245429420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"which they should have done from the beginning rather than trying to roll their own solution."</p><p>I disagree.<br>Internal solution ahve a lot og benefits to them They last longer, more customization,  ease of maintenance, etc.<br>The previous systems lasted for 35 years.</p><p>The problem is it wasn't managed by anyone with experience in managing large scale projects.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" which they should have done from the beginning rather than trying to roll their own solution .
" I disagree.Internal solution ahve a lot og benefits to them They last longer , more customization , ease of maintenance , etc.The previous systems lasted for 35 years.The problem is it was n't managed by anyone with experience in managing large scale projects .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"which they should have done from the beginning rather than trying to roll their own solution.
"I disagree.Internal solution ahve a lot og benefits to them They last longer, more customization,  ease of maintenance, etc.The previous systems lasted for 35 years.The problem is it wasn't managed by anyone with experience in managing large scale projects.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382817</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382989</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245329640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Being a graduate of Madcity, I can tell you that they produce some of the best programmers in the world.</p><p>"Guess what, ladies and gentlemen? This year's Comp Sci project is writing a payroll system..."</p><p>They could teach a 4 year Comp Sci program around it. Planning, implementation, support, and future growth.</p><p>Screw paying for it - utilize your existing resources!!!</p><p>Then again, with our current dumbf*ck Govenor... At least he's not going to make license plates like Illinois past governors...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Being a graduate of Madcity , I can tell you that they produce some of the best programmers in the world .
" Guess what , ladies and gentlemen ?
This year 's Comp Sci project is writing a payroll system... " They could teach a 4 year Comp Sci program around it .
Planning , implementation , support , and future growth.Screw paying for it - utilize your existing resources ! !
! Then again , with our current dumbf * ck Govenor... At least he 's not going to make license plates like Illinois past governors.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Being a graduate of Madcity, I can tell you that they produce some of the best programmers in the world.
"Guess what, ladies and gentlemen?
This year's Comp Sci project is writing a payroll system..."They could teach a 4 year Comp Sci program around it.
Planning, implementation, support, and future growth.Screw paying for it - utilize your existing resources!!
!Then again, with our current dumbf*ck Govenor... At least he's not going to make license plates like Illinois past governors...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383101</id>
	<title>Outsourcing it</title>
	<author>canuck57</author>
	<datestamp>1245330000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Now according to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University\_of\_Wisconsin-Madison" title="wikipedia.org">Wiki</a> [wikipedia.org] they employ 2,054 faculty members and probably outsource most other services like cleaning etc.  That works out to $14,000 per year per faculty.
<br> <br>Any chance of outsourcing that?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Now according to Wiki [ wikipedia.org ] they employ 2,054 faculty members and probably outsource most other services like cleaning etc .
That works out to $ 14,000 per year per faculty .
Any chance of outsourcing that ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now according to Wiki [wikipedia.org] they employ 2,054 faculty members and probably outsource most other services like cleaning etc.
That works out to $14,000 per year per faculty.
Any chance of outsourcing that?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384151</id>
	<title>A university has lots of unpaid laborers</title>
	<author>kybred</author>
	<datestamp>1245335760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's a university... they have thousands of undergrad CS students who can work for free. Just assign it as a 4 year project to the incoming freshmen and voila! In four years you have a system that cost $0!
<p>
And if it doesn't work, you give them all 'F's and start again with the next incoming class.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's a university... they have thousands of undergrad CS students who can work for free .
Just assign it as a 4 year project to the incoming freshmen and voila !
In four years you have a system that cost $ 0 !
And if it does n't work , you give them all 'F 's and start again with the next incoming class .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's a university... they have thousands of undergrad CS students who can work for free.
Just assign it as a 4 year project to the incoming freshmen and voila!
In four years you have a system that cost $0!
And if it doesn't work, you give them all 'F's and start again with the next incoming class.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382631</id>
	<title>I dont understand.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245328260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How can an upgrade cost $40m?</htmltext>
<tokenext>How can an upgrade cost $ 40m ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How can an upgrade cost $40m?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28387087</id>
	<title>As compared with what?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245408180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Citigroup, ENRON, Merril Lynch, AEG, Parmalat?</p><p>Stop beating governments as inherently inefficient, it seems that inefficiency has to do more with human nature in general<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Citigroup , ENRON , Merril Lynch , AEG , Parmalat ? Stop beating governments as inherently inefficient , it seems that inefficiency has to do more with human nature in general .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Citigroup, ENRON, Merril Lynch, AEG, Parmalat?Stop beating governments as inherently inefficient, it seems that inefficiency has to do more with human nature in general ...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383801</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384501</id>
	<title>Re:Moore's Law</title>
	<author>Ritchie70</author>
	<datestamp>1245338460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But of course the computer hardware isn't the issue.</p><p>I assume the laptop I'm typing this on has more raw computing power than the system they originally wrote their payroll system for. Maybe not the I/O throughput, but probably more CPU.</p><p>The problem is, nobody wants to just move the existing (probably COBOL) to new hardware. Assuming COBOL, that can probably be done fairly easily.</p><p>In 1975, they wanted to write something that would work on the hardware they had. That isn't what they want today.</p><p>My assumption is they want to re-architect it to be modern, more configurable (as opposed to changing code) and fully buzz-word compliant, in part driven by management that doesn't understand technology but does understand what the highly paid outside firm is telling them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But of course the computer hardware is n't the issue.I assume the laptop I 'm typing this on has more raw computing power than the system they originally wrote their payroll system for .
Maybe not the I/O throughput , but probably more CPU.The problem is , nobody wants to just move the existing ( probably COBOL ) to new hardware .
Assuming COBOL , that can probably be done fairly easily.In 1975 , they wanted to write something that would work on the hardware they had .
That is n't what they want today.My assumption is they want to re-architect it to be modern , more configurable ( as opposed to changing code ) and fully buzz-word compliant , in part driven by management that does n't understand technology but does understand what the highly paid outside firm is telling them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But of course the computer hardware isn't the issue.I assume the laptop I'm typing this on has more raw computing power than the system they originally wrote their payroll system for.
Maybe not the I/O throughput, but probably more CPU.The problem is, nobody wants to just move the existing (probably COBOL) to new hardware.
Assuming COBOL, that can probably be done fairly easily.In 1975, they wanted to write something that would work on the hardware they had.
That isn't what they want today.My assumption is they want to re-architect it to be modern, more configurable (as opposed to changing code) and fully buzz-word compliant, in part driven by management that doesn't understand technology but does understand what the highly paid outside firm is telling them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383547</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384053</id>
	<title>Re:Bad Title</title>
	<author>vic-traill</author>
	<datestamp>1245335100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.</p></div><p>That's the damn funniest<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.sig I've read in quite a while.  Kinda like asking Henry Spencer if he knows anything about Usenet, or regular expressions.</p><p>Anyway, as another poster noted, the $12 million is for planning only.  And it is up from $8 million in the original budget.  I'm pretty impressed - how does the *planning* budget run over by 50\%?  And w/ a big 'n' to boot - it's not like it bloated from 1k to 1.5k.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do you even know anything about perl ?
-- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.That 's the damn funniest .sig I 've read in quite a while .
Kinda like asking Henry Spencer if he knows anything about Usenet , or regular expressions.Anyway , as another poster noted , the $ 12 million is for planning only .
And it is up from $ 8 million in the original budget .
I 'm pretty impressed - how does the * planning * budget run over by 50 \ % ?
And w/ a big 'n ' to boot - it 's not like it bloated from 1k to 1.5k .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do you even know anything about perl?
-- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.That's the damn funniest .sig I've read in quite a while.
Kinda like asking Henry Spencer if he knows anything about Usenet, or regular expressions.Anyway, as another poster noted, the $12 million is for planning only.
And it is up from $8 million in the original budget.
I'm pretty impressed - how does the *planning* budget run over by 50\%?
And w/ a big 'n' to boot - it's not like it bloated from 1k to 1.5k.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382817</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28386751</id>
	<title>Pen and paper</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245404040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've could set up a cheaper system with a longer product life then the $40M one in a couple of weeks.</p><p>I'd just use pen, paper and trained monkeys in shirts.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've could set up a cheaper system with a longer product life then the $ 40M one in a couple of weeks.I 'd just use pen , paper and trained monkeys in shirts .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've could set up a cheaper system with a longer product life then the $40M one in a couple of weeks.I'd just use pen, paper and trained monkeys in shirts.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383055</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>j-turkey</author>
	<datestamp>1245329880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Without really understanding the details of their payroll system and the task involved, I don't necessarily agree with your assessment.  Most university IT groups don't have stellar project managers, which is the one thing that a project of this scale (and criticality) needs.  Further, it's likely that nobody has have the expertise in either the outgoing payroll system or the one that's going to replace it (either in a shrinkwrap or roll-your-own configuration).  I'm not sure whether or not hiring a high-paid, highly experienced and qualified project manager as an FTE is warranted.  Further, what does an IT department do with a really good PM with tons of experience and a huge list of successful projects when this project ends in 18-24 months?  The smart money is to eliminate the position, which is what a smart manager will see when they interview the university.  Instead, they would likely work on a contract basis and (as you say) slice off 50\% for themselves.</p><p>
Rolling their own payroll system is also a possible disaster for them.  It's very likely that they're having a hard time communicating requirements to professional payroll implementation/transition consultants who do this sort of thing all the time with a shrinkwrap ERP (like Oracle, SAP, etc).  What makes you think that the university will be able to better communicate requirements to developers?</p><p>
I guess that this is all armchair quarterbacking from both of us, since I have no idea of the circumstances beyond the details that the article provides (which are light, at best).  It appears that this was mishandled on multiple levels though - likely both the fault of the university management and the consultants.  Usually for projects to fail on this level, it has to go both ways - consultants mismanage a project, the university mismanages the consultants, and probably isn't able to clearly communicate requirements.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Without really understanding the details of their payroll system and the task involved , I do n't necessarily agree with your assessment .
Most university IT groups do n't have stellar project managers , which is the one thing that a project of this scale ( and criticality ) needs .
Further , it 's likely that nobody has have the expertise in either the outgoing payroll system or the one that 's going to replace it ( either in a shrinkwrap or roll-your-own configuration ) .
I 'm not sure whether or not hiring a high-paid , highly experienced and qualified project manager as an FTE is warranted .
Further , what does an IT department do with a really good PM with tons of experience and a huge list of successful projects when this project ends in 18-24 months ?
The smart money is to eliminate the position , which is what a smart manager will see when they interview the university .
Instead , they would likely work on a contract basis and ( as you say ) slice off 50 \ % for themselves .
Rolling their own payroll system is also a possible disaster for them .
It 's very likely that they 're having a hard time communicating requirements to professional payroll implementation/transition consultants who do this sort of thing all the time with a shrinkwrap ERP ( like Oracle , SAP , etc ) .
What makes you think that the university will be able to better communicate requirements to developers ?
I guess that this is all armchair quarterbacking from both of us , since I have no idea of the circumstances beyond the details that the article provides ( which are light , at best ) .
It appears that this was mishandled on multiple levels though - likely both the fault of the university management and the consultants .
Usually for projects to fail on this level , it has to go both ways - consultants mismanage a project , the university mismanages the consultants , and probably is n't able to clearly communicate requirements .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Without really understanding the details of their payroll system and the task involved, I don't necessarily agree with your assessment.
Most university IT groups don't have stellar project managers, which is the one thing that a project of this scale (and criticality) needs.
Further, it's likely that nobody has have the expertise in either the outgoing payroll system or the one that's going to replace it (either in a shrinkwrap or roll-your-own configuration).
I'm not sure whether or not hiring a high-paid, highly experienced and qualified project manager as an FTE is warranted.
Further, what does an IT department do with a really good PM with tons of experience and a huge list of successful projects when this project ends in 18-24 months?
The smart money is to eliminate the position, which is what a smart manager will see when they interview the university.
Instead, they would likely work on a contract basis and (as you say) slice off 50\% for themselves.
Rolling their own payroll system is also a possible disaster for them.
It's very likely that they're having a hard time communicating requirements to professional payroll implementation/transition consultants who do this sort of thing all the time with a shrinkwrap ERP (like Oracle, SAP, etc).
What makes you think that the university will be able to better communicate requirements to developers?
I guess that this is all armchair quarterbacking from both of us, since I have no idea of the circumstances beyond the details that the article provides (which are light, at best).
It appears that this was mishandled on multiple levels though - likely both the fault of the university management and the consultants.
Usually for projects to fail on this level, it has to go both ways - consultants mismanage a project, the university mismanages the consultants, and probably isn't able to clearly communicate requirements.
</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28390237</id>
	<title>Re:Here's the real story</title>
	<author>imobilizer</author>
	<datestamp>1245427500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Actually, I believe the heart of the payroll system is written in Assembler, not COBOL.</p><p>If it's the system I think it is, the guy who wrote it originally is my father!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , I believe the heart of the payroll system is written in Assembler , not COBOL.If it 's the system I think it is , the guy who wrote it originally is my father !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, I believe the heart of the payroll system is written in Assembler, not COBOL.If it's the system I think it is, the guy who wrote it originally is my father!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383469</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28386171</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>rs79</author>
	<datestamp>1245354720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i> <b>"Also, it was made in the 70's! How complex can a program on a handful of punch cards be?!</b> </i>"</p><p>Back off monkey boy. By 1975 we had DECtape.</p><p>And RK05's.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Also , it was made in the 70 's !
How complex can a program on a handful of punch cards be ? !
" Back off monkey boy .
By 1975 we had DECtape.And RK05 's .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> "Also, it was made in the 70's!
How complex can a program on a handful of punch cards be?!
"Back off monkey boy.
By 1975 we had DECtape.And RK05's.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383043</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28389471</id>
	<title>Re:A university has lots of unpaid laborers</title>
	<author>Provocateur</author>
	<datestamp>1245424380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"It's so crazy it just might work!"  -- in a country/hick voice</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" It 's so crazy it just might work !
" -- in a country/hick voice</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"It's so crazy it just might work!
"  -- in a country/hick voice</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384151</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382745</id>
	<title>Bad Title</title>
	<author>Red Flayer</author>
	<datestamp>1245328740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Who am I kidding, right?<br> <br>Their payroll system doesn't need a 40-million-dollar fix.  That's just what they've ended up spending on it (hypothetically, once the $12 MM hot cash injection fixes all the problems).<br> <br>The University should just scrap the system and go with a commercial payroll vendor.  Bigger organizations have done the same, and there's no shame in it.<br> <br>$40 MM is insane.  That's over four years of tuition for 4500 students at UW-Madison.<br> <br>No use throwing good money after bad.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Who am I kidding , right ?
Their payroll system does n't need a 40-million-dollar fix .
That 's just what they 've ended up spending on it ( hypothetically , once the $ 12 MM hot cash injection fixes all the problems ) .
The University should just scrap the system and go with a commercial payroll vendor .
Bigger organizations have done the same , and there 's no shame in it .
$ 40 MM is insane .
That 's over four years of tuition for 4500 students at UW-Madison .
No use throwing good money after bad .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Who am I kidding, right?
Their payroll system doesn't need a 40-million-dollar fix.
That's just what they've ended up spending on it (hypothetically, once the $12 MM hot cash injection fixes all the problems).
The University should just scrap the system and go with a commercial payroll vendor.
Bigger organizations have done the same, and there's no shame in it.
$40 MM is insane.
That's over four years of tuition for 4500 students at UW-Madison.
No use throwing good money after bad.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383801</id>
	<title>Efficiency</title>
	<author>Jodka</author>
	<datestamp>1245333600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The University of Wisconsin is a state-funded school, and as such is essentially a branch of government.  When you are told that massive increases in government spending are necessary investments in the future of America, keep in mind that this is the kind of return which you will receive on that investment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The University of Wisconsin is a state-funded school , and as such is essentially a branch of government .
When you are told that massive increases in government spending are necessary investments in the future of America , keep in mind that this is the kind of return which you will receive on that investment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The University of Wisconsin is a state-funded school, and as such is essentially a branch of government.
When you are told that massive increases in government spending are necessary investments in the future of America, keep in mind that this is the kind of return which you will receive on that investment.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385679</id>
	<title>Re:I dont understand.</title>
	<author>jonbryce</author>
	<datestamp>1245349860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is there any reason why they couldn't use the US equivalent of <a href="http://shop.sage.co.uk/payrollprofessional.aspx" title="sage.co.uk">http://shop.sage.co.uk/payrollprofessional.aspx</a> [sage.co.uk] ?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is there any reason why they could n't use the US equivalent of http : //shop.sage.co.uk/payrollprofessional.aspx [ sage.co.uk ] ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is there any reason why they couldn't use the US equivalent of http://shop.sage.co.uk/payrollprofessional.aspx [sage.co.uk] ?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383395</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383145</id>
	<title>Re:Prospectus</title>
	<author>kingkoopa</author>
	<datestamp>1245330120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Phase 1
</p><p>
Extraction of business rules from legacy (probably COBAL) system.
</p></div><p>COBAL, exactly what I was thinking.  It reminds me of an article that was on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>./ about a year ago talking about how California couldn't find anyone to maintain/upgrade their payroll system becuase they couldn't find any COBAL programmers.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Phase 1 Extraction of business rules from legacy ( probably COBAL ) system .
COBAL , exactly what I was thinking .
It reminds me of an article that was on ./ about a year ago talking about how California could n't find anyone to maintain/upgrade their payroll system becuase they could n't find any COBAL programmers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Phase 1

Extraction of business rules from legacy (probably COBAL) system.
COBAL, exactly what I was thinking.
It reminds me of an article that was on ./ about a year ago talking about how California couldn't find anyone to maintain/upgrade their payroll system becuase they couldn't find any COBAL programmers.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382865</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383361</id>
	<title>Should we change the name?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245331080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Maybe...<br>
just maybe...<br>
we can call it "The Looney-versity of Wisconsin".<br>
Would be appropriate.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe.. . just maybe.. . we can call it " The Looney-versity of Wisconsin " .
Would be appropriate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe...
just maybe...
we can call it "The Looney-versity of Wisconsin".
Would be appropriate.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384061</id>
	<title>Re:The money goes quickly on these projects</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245335220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> It would take some time to burn through $40mm</p></div><p>The first time around, the university spent $28.4 million over three years. If you pay the system architects/designers/coders/testers/trainers $100,000 per year each as a salary, that is a team of 94 people working three years, with nothing to show for it at the end.</p><p>This time around, the university is going to spend $12 million for the design alone. Implementation will be on top of that. For an accounting system.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It would take some time to burn through $ 40mmThe first time around , the university spent $ 28.4 million over three years .
If you pay the system architects/designers/coders/testers/trainers $ 100,000 per year each as a salary , that is a team of 94 people working three years , with nothing to show for it at the end.This time around , the university is going to spend $ 12 million for the design alone .
Implementation will be on top of that .
For an accounting system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> It would take some time to burn through $40mmThe first time around, the university spent $28.4 million over three years.
If you pay the system architects/designers/coders/testers/trainers $100,000 per year each as a salary, that is a team of 94 people working three years, with nothing to show for it at the end.This time around, the university is going to spend $12 million for the design alone.
Implementation will be on top of that.
For an accounting system.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383293</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384285</id>
	<title>The University of Vermont went through this</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245336600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Not on that scale but still a hefty chunk of change nevertheless.<br> <br>

The cost and complexity of moving the entire payroll and finance system over to peoplesoft was so much that it lead to the resignation of the CFO of the university because he spent more without the authorization of the board - never mind that the board and the president pushed for this improvement knowing the budget will go over from $25 mil to $40 mil or so.
<br> <br>
<a href="http://www.vermontnewsguy.com/tag/daniel-fogel/" title="vermontnewsguy.com">http://www.vermontnewsguy.com/tag/daniel-fogel/</a> [vermontnewsguy.com]
<br> <br>
Bottom line is that these type of projects are incredibly complex and no one really knows the long term costs when they get into it initially. But due diligence and oversight would be critical and helpful no doubt.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Not on that scale but still a hefty chunk of change nevertheless .
The cost and complexity of moving the entire payroll and finance system over to peoplesoft was so much that it lead to the resignation of the CFO of the university because he spent more without the authorization of the board - never mind that the board and the president pushed for this improvement knowing the budget will go over from $ 25 mil to $ 40 mil or so .
http : //www.vermontnewsguy.com/tag/daniel-fogel/ [ vermontnewsguy.com ] Bottom line is that these type of projects are incredibly complex and no one really knows the long term costs when they get into it initially .
But due diligence and oversight would be critical and helpful no doubt .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not on that scale but still a hefty chunk of change nevertheless.
The cost and complexity of moving the entire payroll and finance system over to peoplesoft was so much that it lead to the resignation of the CFO of the university because he spent more without the authorization of the board - never mind that the board and the president pushed for this improvement knowing the budget will go over from $25 mil to $40 mil or so.
http://www.vermontnewsguy.com/tag/daniel-fogel/ [vermontnewsguy.com]
 
Bottom line is that these type of projects are incredibly complex and no one really knows the long term costs when they get into it initially.
But due diligence and oversight would be critical and helpful no doubt.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383293</id>
	<title>The money goes quickly on these projects</title>
	<author>kbob88</author>
	<datestamp>1245330720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been involved in a few of these types of projects (unfortunately), and believe it or not, the money goes quickly. So does the time. It's not just coding -- that's actually a very small part of the money. It would take some time to burn through $40mm, but you'd be amazed how quickly these project eat up cash.  I certainly was when I first got involved.</p><p>Here are some things to consider:</p><ul><li>They always consider the costs of the internal people's time on these projects, even if they're not dedicated to the project. So if you have a 4 hour requirements meeting with 6 business folks from Payroll, well, that gets figured into the overall budget at 4 * 6 * hourly loaded cost of employees, plus your time.</li><li>Software and database licenses add up quickly for this type of project. You know they're not running on MySQL, right? It's probably Oracle all the way, and that's $$$. Some vendors charge by the seat -- how many users do you think a payroll system for 60,000 employees has? That's right, a lot. Plus hardware costs -- they're not running this on their old hardware.</li><li>A project of this size probably has a project manager, several project administrators, an internal business lead, and an internal technical lead, at a minimum, running the show.</li><li>How much do you think gathering requirements, mapping out existing processes, mapping requirements to functionality, developing specs to cover the gaps, creating the new processes,<br>testing the new processes, and getting buy-in and approval on all that from all the stakeholders costs? You know there will always be 3 to 5 revision and feedback cycles for everything. That's an easy 6 to 18 months of work for a team of six to eight people probably.</li><li>They're going to have run it in test mode for several pay periods, while the old system is still running, and check the results. That will result in duplicate work for all the people entering in the data.</li><li>Converting the existing data costs money.</li><li>Training costs for the users -- there are probably several hundred users, at different sites. (Plus there's always "Change Management" costs)</li></ul><p>(Ugh, thank God I'm out of that ERP systems business these days!)</p><p>Yes, a fair amount of the money is probably wasted. But these projects do cost big bucks. This isn't hacking up a new blogging tool from open source toolkits. I'm not saying it's right, or well managed (it almost certainly isn't), but to say "dude, I could hack up a payroll system in a couple of months, pay me the money!" just shows that while you may know how to sling code, you don't have a clue about delivering solutions to business problems.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been involved in a few of these types of projects ( unfortunately ) , and believe it or not , the money goes quickly .
So does the time .
It 's not just coding -- that 's actually a very small part of the money .
It would take some time to burn through $ 40mm , but you 'd be amazed how quickly these project eat up cash .
I certainly was when I first got involved.Here are some things to consider : They always consider the costs of the internal people 's time on these projects , even if they 're not dedicated to the project .
So if you have a 4 hour requirements meeting with 6 business folks from Payroll , well , that gets figured into the overall budget at 4 * 6 * hourly loaded cost of employees , plus your time.Software and database licenses add up quickly for this type of project .
You know they 're not running on MySQL , right ?
It 's probably Oracle all the way , and that 's $ $ $ .
Some vendors charge by the seat -- how many users do you think a payroll system for 60,000 employees has ?
That 's right , a lot .
Plus hardware costs -- they 're not running this on their old hardware.A project of this size probably has a project manager , several project administrators , an internal business lead , and an internal technical lead , at a minimum , running the show.How much do you think gathering requirements , mapping out existing processes , mapping requirements to functionality , developing specs to cover the gaps , creating the new processes,testing the new processes , and getting buy-in and approval on all that from all the stakeholders costs ?
You know there will always be 3 to 5 revision and feedback cycles for everything .
That 's an easy 6 to 18 months of work for a team of six to eight people probably.They 're going to have run it in test mode for several pay periods , while the old system is still running , and check the results .
That will result in duplicate work for all the people entering in the data.Converting the existing data costs money.Training costs for the users -- there are probably several hundred users , at different sites .
( Plus there 's always " Change Management " costs ) ( Ugh , thank God I 'm out of that ERP systems business these days !
) Yes , a fair amount of the money is probably wasted .
But these projects do cost big bucks .
This is n't hacking up a new blogging tool from open source toolkits .
I 'm not saying it 's right , or well managed ( it almost certainly is n't ) , but to say " dude , I could hack up a payroll system in a couple of months , pay me the money !
" just shows that while you may know how to sling code , you do n't have a clue about delivering solutions to business problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been involved in a few of these types of projects (unfortunately), and believe it or not, the money goes quickly.
So does the time.
It's not just coding -- that's actually a very small part of the money.
It would take some time to burn through $40mm, but you'd be amazed how quickly these project eat up cash.
I certainly was when I first got involved.Here are some things to consider:They always consider the costs of the internal people's time on these projects, even if they're not dedicated to the project.
So if you have a 4 hour requirements meeting with 6 business folks from Payroll, well, that gets figured into the overall budget at 4 * 6 * hourly loaded cost of employees, plus your time.Software and database licenses add up quickly for this type of project.
You know they're not running on MySQL, right?
It's probably Oracle all the way, and that's $$$.
Some vendors charge by the seat -- how many users do you think a payroll system for 60,000 employees has?
That's right, a lot.
Plus hardware costs -- they're not running this on their old hardware.A project of this size probably has a project manager, several project administrators, an internal business lead, and an internal technical lead, at a minimum, running the show.How much do you think gathering requirements, mapping out existing processes, mapping requirements to functionality, developing specs to cover the gaps, creating the new processes,testing the new processes, and getting buy-in and approval on all that from all the stakeholders costs?
You know there will always be 3 to 5 revision and feedback cycles for everything.
That's an easy 6 to 18 months of work for a team of six to eight people probably.They're going to have run it in test mode for several pay periods, while the old system is still running, and check the results.
That will result in duplicate work for all the people entering in the data.Converting the existing data costs money.Training costs for the users -- there are probably several hundred users, at different sites.
(Plus there's always "Change Management" costs)(Ugh, thank God I'm out of that ERP systems business these days!
)Yes, a fair amount of the money is probably wasted.
But these projects do cost big bucks.
This isn't hacking up a new blogging tool from open source toolkits.
I'm not saying it's right, or well managed (it almost certainly isn't), but to say "dude, I could hack up a payroll system in a couple of months, pay me the money!
" just shows that while you may know how to sling code, you don't have a clue about delivering solutions to business problems.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28394421</id>
	<title>Re:A university has lots of unpaid laborers</title>
	<author>ErikZ</author>
	<datestamp>1245444420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>0$???</p><p>Hell, they're paying to attend your University. You can actually make money by having students develop this.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>0 $ ? ?
? Hell , they 're paying to attend your University .
You can actually make money by having students develop this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>0$??
?Hell, they're paying to attend your University.
You can actually make money by having students develop this.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384151</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383009</id>
	<title>This is a B-league project, A-leaguers avoid it</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245329700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>The real problem here is that best of breed software developers have too many great opportunities that are more inline with their passions to work on this backwater payroll system.  This leaves the unmotivated drones managed by Dilbertesque managers to run with this ball.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The real problem here is that best of breed software developers have too many great opportunities that are more inline with their passions to work on this backwater payroll system .
This leaves the unmotivated drones managed by Dilbertesque managers to run with this ball .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The real problem here is that best of breed software developers have too many great opportunities that are more inline with their passions to work on this backwater payroll system.
This leaves the unmotivated drones managed by Dilbertesque managers to run with this ball.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384851</id>
	<title>Re:I dont understand.</title>
	<author>eyrieowl</author>
	<datestamp>1245340860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First, it's not really $40m, it's only $40m b/c they're doing it 2x.  It's closer to $20m.<br>And...it's not just upgrading, as pointed out.  It's a complete new system.  Any system as old as their previous system is probably in need of replacement rather than simply refactoring and basic updating.</p><p>I just did some back of the envelope calculations.  So...outside firm bids.  Let's say that we'll have 24 minions (basic programmers, project management, requirements, documentation, etc).  We'll say they average $70k/year salary.  We'll double that for overhead, so $140k/minion/year in salary &amp; overhead ($3.36 mil).  Let's say those 24 minions have 8 middle management/tech leads/etc on top of them.  We'll say they make on average $100k/year, so $200k/year/manager ($1.6 mil).  Finally, we'll say there are two top dogs (architect, partner) on the project.  We'll be conservative and put them at $150k/year ($600 k).  Now everyone is going to need computers.  Let's say $2k/computer ($72 k).  This new system isn't going to run on their old hardware, so we'll get them new fancy hardware for $10-$15 million.  Finally, the good folks in the payroll dept at the university need new hardware as well to use the new system, so we'll put them down for 20 computers at $2k each as well ($40 k).  Grand total is between $15.7-$20.7 million.  Granted that this is still less than the $28.4 they actually spent, but clearly there was some overcharging and incompetence going on, so we'll put the extra $8+ million down to false-starts and other poor decisions made by the consulting firm.  And, when you're all said and done, the simple project ends up being quite expensive.  I have no way of knowing how my cost breakdown compares to how their money was spent, but it makes reasonable sense.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First , it 's not really $ 40m , it 's only $ 40m b/c they 're doing it 2x .
It 's closer to $ 20m.And...it 's not just upgrading , as pointed out .
It 's a complete new system .
Any system as old as their previous system is probably in need of replacement rather than simply refactoring and basic updating.I just did some back of the envelope calculations .
So...outside firm bids .
Let 's say that we 'll have 24 minions ( basic programmers , project management , requirements , documentation , etc ) .
We 'll say they average $ 70k/year salary .
We 'll double that for overhead , so $ 140k/minion/year in salary &amp; overhead ( $ 3.36 mil ) .
Let 's say those 24 minions have 8 middle management/tech leads/etc on top of them .
We 'll say they make on average $ 100k/year , so $ 200k/year/manager ( $ 1.6 mil ) .
Finally , we 'll say there are two top dogs ( architect , partner ) on the project .
We 'll be conservative and put them at $ 150k/year ( $ 600 k ) .
Now everyone is going to need computers .
Let 's say $ 2k/computer ( $ 72 k ) .
This new system is n't going to run on their old hardware , so we 'll get them new fancy hardware for $ 10- $ 15 million .
Finally , the good folks in the payroll dept at the university need new hardware as well to use the new system , so we 'll put them down for 20 computers at $ 2k each as well ( $ 40 k ) .
Grand total is between $ 15.7- $ 20.7 million .
Granted that this is still less than the $ 28.4 they actually spent , but clearly there was some overcharging and incompetence going on , so we 'll put the extra $ 8 + million down to false-starts and other poor decisions made by the consulting firm .
And , when you 're all said and done , the simple project ends up being quite expensive .
I have no way of knowing how my cost breakdown compares to how their money was spent , but it makes reasonable sense .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First, it's not really $40m, it's only $40m b/c they're doing it 2x.
It's closer to $20m.And...it's not just upgrading, as pointed out.
It's a complete new system.
Any system as old as their previous system is probably in need of replacement rather than simply refactoring and basic updating.I just did some back of the envelope calculations.
So...outside firm bids.
Let's say that we'll have 24 minions (basic programmers, project management, requirements, documentation, etc).
We'll say they average $70k/year salary.
We'll double that for overhead, so $140k/minion/year in salary &amp; overhead ($3.36 mil).
Let's say those 24 minions have 8 middle management/tech leads/etc on top of them.
We'll say they make on average $100k/year, so $200k/year/manager ($1.6 mil).
Finally, we'll say there are two top dogs (architect, partner) on the project.
We'll be conservative and put them at $150k/year ($600 k).
Now everyone is going to need computers.
Let's say $2k/computer ($72 k).
This new system isn't going to run on their old hardware, so we'll get them new fancy hardware for $10-$15 million.
Finally, the good folks in the payroll dept at the university need new hardware as well to use the new system, so we'll put them down for 20 computers at $2k each as well ($40 k).
Grand total is between $15.7-$20.7 million.
Granted that this is still less than the $28.4 they actually spent, but clearly there was some overcharging and incompetence going on, so we'll put the extra $8+ million down to false-starts and other poor decisions made by the consulting firm.
And, when you're all said and done, the simple project ends up being quite expensive.
I have no way of knowing how my cost breakdown compares to how their money was spent, but it makes reasonable sense.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382631</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384071</id>
	<title>Re:Efficiency</title>
	<author>duffbeer703</author>
	<datestamp>1245335220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've worked for government, small businesses and Fortune 50 corporations. In my experience, government is just as screwed up as a big corporation. The only difference is that most big corporations purge some people every year, and government tends to have more overhead of workers doing little/nothing.</p><p>It works out to be about the same. 15-20\% of corporate people are busy sucking up to the boss and 15-20\% of government people are making paper airplanes or whatever.</p><p>Government generally has professional staff who have some sort of clue, just like in the corporate world. The difference is that there is another layer(s) of management about the professional managers and directors -- political appointees. Usually the political types know they are dumb and stay out of the way, but sometimes they decide to flex their power -- resulting in many a dilbert moment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've worked for government , small businesses and Fortune 50 corporations .
In my experience , government is just as screwed up as a big corporation .
The only difference is that most big corporations purge some people every year , and government tends to have more overhead of workers doing little/nothing.It works out to be about the same .
15-20 \ % of corporate people are busy sucking up to the boss and 15-20 \ % of government people are making paper airplanes or whatever.Government generally has professional staff who have some sort of clue , just like in the corporate world .
The difference is that there is another layer ( s ) of management about the professional managers and directors -- political appointees .
Usually the political types know they are dumb and stay out of the way , but sometimes they decide to flex their power -- resulting in many a dilbert moment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've worked for government, small businesses and Fortune 50 corporations.
In my experience, government is just as screwed up as a big corporation.
The only difference is that most big corporations purge some people every year, and government tends to have more overhead of workers doing little/nothing.It works out to be about the same.
15-20\% of corporate people are busy sucking up to the boss and 15-20\% of government people are making paper airplanes or whatever.Government generally has professional staff who have some sort of clue, just like in the corporate world.
The difference is that there is another layer(s) of management about the professional managers and directors -- political appointees.
Usually the political types know they are dumb and stay out of the way, but sometimes they decide to flex their power -- resulting in many a dilbert moment.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383801</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383395</id>
	<title>Re:I dont understand.</title>
	<author>DrLang21</author>
	<datestamp>1245331320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Depends on the scope of the project. In this case, it sounds like poor project planning resulted in inadequate investigation or documentation of requirements.  So the initial fix which was probably a huge effort for a very large employer to have tailored to their needs, deployed, validated, and then integrated without hiccups.  I don't know if $28.4 million was unreasonable to the situation, but don't underestimate the cost of deploying a highly secure, stable, expandable, and usable system without interruption.  Not to mention the cost of training payroll employees and IT on the new system.  This isn't just a simple upgrade.  This is a complete overhaul that is probably expected to last for decades.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Depends on the scope of the project .
In this case , it sounds like poor project planning resulted in inadequate investigation or documentation of requirements .
So the initial fix which was probably a huge effort for a very large employer to have tailored to their needs , deployed , validated , and then integrated without hiccups .
I do n't know if $ 28.4 million was unreasonable to the situation , but do n't underestimate the cost of deploying a highly secure , stable , expandable , and usable system without interruption .
Not to mention the cost of training payroll employees and IT on the new system .
This is n't just a simple upgrade .
This is a complete overhaul that is probably expected to last for decades .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Depends on the scope of the project.
In this case, it sounds like poor project planning resulted in inadequate investigation or documentation of requirements.
So the initial fix which was probably a huge effort for a very large employer to have tailored to their needs, deployed, validated, and then integrated without hiccups.
I don't know if $28.4 million was unreasonable to the situation, but don't underestimate the cost of deploying a highly secure, stable, expandable, and usable system without interruption.
Not to mention the cost of training payroll employees and IT on the new system.
This isn't just a simple upgrade.
This is a complete overhaul that is probably expected to last for decades.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382631</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382991</id>
	<title>Bubbles!</title>
	<author>really\_irish\_man</author>
	<datestamp>1245329640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>FTA:
<i>Giroux said earlier planning budget estimates and timelines had to be changed because "we did not have the full picture of how complex this project would be." He noted a state audit in 2007 of troubled information technology projects identified inadequate planning as the source of most problems. </i>
<br>
<br>
Seems like a classic case of the bubbles don't turn into code.</htmltext>
<tokenext>FTA : Giroux said earlier planning budget estimates and timelines had to be changed because " we did not have the full picture of how complex this project would be .
" He noted a state audit in 2007 of troubled information technology projects identified inadequate planning as the source of most problems .
Seems like a classic case of the bubbles do n't turn into code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>FTA:
Giroux said earlier planning budget estimates and timelines had to be changed because "we did not have the full picture of how complex this project would be.
" He noted a state audit in 2007 of troubled information technology projects identified inadequate planning as the source of most problems.
Seems like a classic case of the bubbles don't turn into code.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</id>
	<title>Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245328860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm sorry, but what a heap of crap.</p><p>It's a payroll system.  Yeah, it's a biggee, and yeah, it's got a lot of old information in it most probably.  It's written in an old language (Oh no!  The end of the world!  Soon we might not be able to understand our systems!  Hold on... we just had three attempts and replacing it with something new and FAILED because we didn't know half the stuff it was running). But you're not telling me that MILLIONS of dollars and YEARS of work by supposedly professional IT companies isn't enough to get ANYTHING working well enough to say "We don't need to worry about that part any more".  You can get an OS written for that sort of money, or kit out an entire borough of schools with an integrated network.</p><p>What's *more* disgusting is that by the looks of it, the IT people at the University are probably barely getting a look in - it's being project-managed by external companies.  Come on, stop faffing about; seriously, this is just stupid.  Get your *existing* IT team, hire a bunch of programmers directly (hey, you're a University... I wonder where you can get a crapload of cheap, intellectual labour nearby, trained in the art of programming properly and designing the systems from the start, supervised and educated by people who have spent years using their technical, professional and theoretical expertise in the subject?) and just write the damn thing from the ground up.  It wouldn't cost anywhere near as much money/time as you have wasted on a single company out of those that tried to sell you crap.  Oh, and you can make it do what YOU want any time and you'll have the programmer's hanging around for the next few years with an incentive to keep the system running properly ("What grade did I give you for that paper on your design of the new payroll system?  I've revised it, it just crashed.").</p><p>If it's THAT damn big, you want to start breaking the thing up into pieces, anyway.  Anything that you can't find out all that it does in that many YEARS, you really want to be breaking into smaller and smaller parts and replicating them one at a time.  Don't pretend that you're the only place on Earth that has that amount of employees, that amount of computer data, and require mordernisation.</p><p>Get rid of the project managing companies, get rid of the "slice-off-50\%-for-myself" companies, get rid of the stupid contracts that REWARD failure, and give the project to people who will give you a system that will not only last for ever but be documented and updated and revised and bug-fixed and converted for ever and a day.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sorry , but what a heap of crap.It 's a payroll system .
Yeah , it 's a biggee , and yeah , it 's got a lot of old information in it most probably .
It 's written in an old language ( Oh no !
The end of the world !
Soon we might not be able to understand our systems !
Hold on... we just had three attempts and replacing it with something new and FAILED because we did n't know half the stuff it was running ) .
But you 're not telling me that MILLIONS of dollars and YEARS of work by supposedly professional IT companies is n't enough to get ANYTHING working well enough to say " We do n't need to worry about that part any more " .
You can get an OS written for that sort of money , or kit out an entire borough of schools with an integrated network.What 's * more * disgusting is that by the looks of it , the IT people at the University are probably barely getting a look in - it 's being project-managed by external companies .
Come on , stop faffing about ; seriously , this is just stupid .
Get your * existing * IT team , hire a bunch of programmers directly ( hey , you 're a University... I wonder where you can get a crapload of cheap , intellectual labour nearby , trained in the art of programming properly and designing the systems from the start , supervised and educated by people who have spent years using their technical , professional and theoretical expertise in the subject ?
) and just write the damn thing from the ground up .
It would n't cost anywhere near as much money/time as you have wasted on a single company out of those that tried to sell you crap .
Oh , and you can make it do what YOU want any time and you 'll have the programmer 's hanging around for the next few years with an incentive to keep the system running properly ( " What grade did I give you for that paper on your design of the new payroll system ?
I 've revised it , it just crashed .
" ) .If it 's THAT damn big , you want to start breaking the thing up into pieces , anyway .
Anything that you ca n't find out all that it does in that many YEARS , you really want to be breaking into smaller and smaller parts and replicating them one at a time .
Do n't pretend that you 're the only place on Earth that has that amount of employees , that amount of computer data , and require mordernisation.Get rid of the project managing companies , get rid of the " slice-off-50 \ % -for-myself " companies , get rid of the stupid contracts that REWARD failure , and give the project to people who will give you a system that will not only last for ever but be documented and updated and revised and bug-fixed and converted for ever and a day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sorry, but what a heap of crap.It's a payroll system.
Yeah, it's a biggee, and yeah, it's got a lot of old information in it most probably.
It's written in an old language (Oh no!
The end of the world!
Soon we might not be able to understand our systems!
Hold on... we just had three attempts and replacing it with something new and FAILED because we didn't know half the stuff it was running).
But you're not telling me that MILLIONS of dollars and YEARS of work by supposedly professional IT companies isn't enough to get ANYTHING working well enough to say "We don't need to worry about that part any more".
You can get an OS written for that sort of money, or kit out an entire borough of schools with an integrated network.What's *more* disgusting is that by the looks of it, the IT people at the University are probably barely getting a look in - it's being project-managed by external companies.
Come on, stop faffing about; seriously, this is just stupid.
Get your *existing* IT team, hire a bunch of programmers directly (hey, you're a University... I wonder where you can get a crapload of cheap, intellectual labour nearby, trained in the art of programming properly and designing the systems from the start, supervised and educated by people who have spent years using their technical, professional and theoretical expertise in the subject?
) and just write the damn thing from the ground up.
It wouldn't cost anywhere near as much money/time as you have wasted on a single company out of those that tried to sell you crap.
Oh, and you can make it do what YOU want any time and you'll have the programmer's hanging around for the next few years with an incentive to keep the system running properly ("What grade did I give you for that paper on your design of the new payroll system?
I've revised it, it just crashed.
").If it's THAT damn big, you want to start breaking the thing up into pieces, anyway.
Anything that you can't find out all that it does in that many YEARS, you really want to be breaking into smaller and smaller parts and replicating them one at a time.
Don't pretend that you're the only place on Earth that has that amount of employees, that amount of computer data, and require mordernisation.Get rid of the project managing companies, get rid of the "slice-off-50\%-for-myself" companies, get rid of the stupid contracts that REWARD failure, and give the project to people who will give you a system that will not only last for ever but be documented and updated and revised and bug-fixed and converted for ever and a day.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382617</id>
	<title>FRIST!!!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245328200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>frist</htmltext>
<tokenext>frist</tokentext>
<sentencetext>frist</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383503</id>
	<title>Stanford's conversion</title>
	<author>Animats</author>
	<datestamp>1245331860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Stanford had a very expensive conversion to PeopleSoft a few years ago. Stanford had a huge collection of in-house systems from the 1970s and 1980s, running on either DEC PDP-10 machines or IBM mainframes.  They've finally phased out all the PDP-10 based stuff at Stanford proper, although SLAC is still running some PDP-10 code.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Stanford had a very expensive conversion to PeopleSoft a few years ago .
Stanford had a huge collection of in-house systems from the 1970s and 1980s , running on either DEC PDP-10 machines or IBM mainframes .
They 've finally phased out all the PDP-10 based stuff at Stanford proper , although SLAC is still running some PDP-10 code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Stanford had a very expensive conversion to PeopleSoft a few years ago.
Stanford had a huge collection of in-house systems from the 1970s and 1980s, running on either DEC PDP-10 machines or IBM mainframes.
They've finally phased out all the PDP-10 based stuff at Stanford proper, although SLAC is still running some PDP-10 code.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382865</id>
	<title>Prospectus</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245329160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Phase 1
<p>
Extraction of business rules from legacy (probably COBAL) system.<br>
Farm it out to other universities or India. <br>(Cost: maybe $1 million)
Basic requirements and documentation finalized
</p><p>
Phase 2
</p><p>
Take the rules and implement the entire system into a PostgreSQL database Java middle-tier to Java AND web-based interface.  Revise documentation.<br>
(Cost: another million)
</p><p>

Phase 3
</p><p>
User acceptance and testing. and go live.<br>
(Cost: 1-2 million)
</p><p>
Profit
Finally, hold the remaining funds as a "maintenance fee" and use the interest to cover ongoing support
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Phase 1 Extraction of business rules from legacy ( probably COBAL ) system .
Farm it out to other universities or India .
( Cost : maybe $ 1 million ) Basic requirements and documentation finalized Phase 2 Take the rules and implement the entire system into a PostgreSQL database Java middle-tier to Java AND web-based interface .
Revise documentation .
( Cost : another million ) Phase 3 User acceptance and testing .
and go live .
( Cost : 1-2 million ) Profit Finally , hold the remaining funds as a " maintenance fee " and use the interest to cover ongoing support</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Phase 1

Extraction of business rules from legacy (probably COBAL) system.
Farm it out to other universities or India.
(Cost: maybe $1 million)
Basic requirements and documentation finalized

Phase 2

Take the rules and implement the entire system into a PostgreSQL database Java middle-tier to Java AND web-based interface.
Revise documentation.
(Cost: another million)


Phase 3

User acceptance and testing.
and go live.
(Cost: 1-2 million)

Profit
Finally, hold the remaining funds as a "maintenance fee" and use the interest to cover ongoing support
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28386153</id>
	<title>Re:Managers often have profound ignorance.</title>
	<author>WillKemp</author>
	<datestamp>1245354540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The world will be a better place when all the managers retire who were raised without computers.</p></div></blockquote><p>I wish that was true, but just because they know what a mouse does and how to shut down Windows doesn't mean they've got a clue about ICT management. You don't have to be good with computers to manage an ICT project properly - but you do have to be a good manager. Part of the problem is that even if they start out with a brain, they go to business school and learn how to not use it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The world will be a better place when all the managers retire who were raised without computers.I wish that was true , but just because they know what a mouse does and how to shut down Windows does n't mean they 've got a clue about ICT management .
You do n't have to be good with computers to manage an ICT project properly - but you do have to be a good manager .
Part of the problem is that even if they start out with a brain , they go to business school and learn how to not use it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The world will be a better place when all the managers retire who were raised without computers.I wish that was true, but just because they know what a mouse does and how to shut down Windows doesn't mean they've got a clue about ICT management.
You don't have to be good with computers to manage an ICT project properly - but you do have to be a good manager.
Part of the problem is that even if they start out with a brain, they go to business school and learn how to not use it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383129</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385781</id>
	<title>Re:OK?</title>
	<author>ndege</author>
	<datestamp>1245350820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>wish there was a tag that was, "LOL -1"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>wish there was a tag that was , " LOL -1 "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>wish there was a tag that was, "LOL -1"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383021</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384631</id>
	<title>That's funny...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245339300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>...it seems the broken payroll system is perfectly adequate for handling the 8-days-per-year furlough that fucktard Gov. Jim Doyle is forcing on all university faculty and scientific staff --- even those who are paid by grant funds and don't get a cent in state money.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...it seems the broken payroll system is perfectly adequate for handling the 8-days-per-year furlough that fucktard Gov .
Jim Doyle is forcing on all university faculty and scientific staff --- even those who are paid by grant funds and do n't get a cent in state money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...it seems the broken payroll system is perfectly adequate for handling the 8-days-per-year furlough that fucktard Gov.
Jim Doyle is forcing on all university faculty and scientific staff --- even those who are paid by grant funds and don't get a cent in state money.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28386177</id>
	<title>Re:Some kids are profoundly ignorant.</title>
	<author>WillKemp</author>
	<datestamp>1245354780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The world will be a better place when kids stop belittling their elders for no factual reason.</p></div></blockquote><p>The world will be a better place when the older generation don't give the kids so many reasons to want to belittle them. [I'm in my 50s btw.]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The world will be a better place when kids stop belittling their elders for no factual reason.The world will be a better place when the older generation do n't give the kids so many reasons to want to belittle them .
[ I 'm in my 50s btw .
]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The world will be a better place when kids stop belittling their elders for no factual reason.The world will be a better place when the older generation don't give the kids so many reasons to want to belittle them.
[I'm in my 50s btw.
]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385077</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383021</id>
	<title>OK?</title>
	<author>arizwebfoot</author>
	<datestamp>1245329760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>So you get a few linux boxes and put paymaster or any other Open Source on it.
<br> <br>
Done.
<br> <br>
Cost: 50,000 with labor...</htmltext>
<tokenext>So you get a few linux boxes and put paymaster or any other Open Source on it .
Done . Cost : 50,000 with labor.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So you get a few linux boxes and put paymaster or any other Open Source on it.
Done.
 
Cost: 50,000 with labor...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28391841</id>
	<title>Re:Efficiency</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1245434340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I find government work to ahve very little sitting adound and doing nothing. I am far busier then I ever was in the corporate world; which is where I have spent the bulk of my carrier.</p><p>I joke that I spent my entire life hearing how government workers don't do anything, and yet I am very busy. I should sue for false advertising~</p><p>If a private company does 99 things wrong and one thing right,  and All you hear is the one thing they did right.<br>Government agency do 999 things right, and one thing wrong and it's all over the newspaper.<br>This tends to affect perceptions.<br>Most political types aren't dumb. Ignorant? certianly. In fact they often suffer from the Arrogance of ignorance logical fallacy. A logical fallacy that seems to be enjoying a revival in this thread.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I find government work to ahve very little sitting adound and doing nothing .
I am far busier then I ever was in the corporate world ; which is where I have spent the bulk of my carrier.I joke that I spent my entire life hearing how government workers do n't do anything , and yet I am very busy .
I should sue for false advertising ~ If a private company does 99 things wrong and one thing right , and All you hear is the one thing they did right.Government agency do 999 things right , and one thing wrong and it 's all over the newspaper.This tends to affect perceptions.Most political types are n't dumb .
Ignorant ? certianly .
In fact they often suffer from the Arrogance of ignorance logical fallacy .
A logical fallacy that seems to be enjoying a revival in this thread .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I find government work to ahve very little sitting adound and doing nothing.
I am far busier then I ever was in the corporate world; which is where I have spent the bulk of my carrier.I joke that I spent my entire life hearing how government workers don't do anything, and yet I am very busy.
I should sue for false advertising~If a private company does 99 things wrong and one thing right,  and All you hear is the one thing they did right.Government agency do 999 things right, and one thing wrong and it's all over the newspaper.This tends to affect perceptions.Most political types aren't dumb.
Ignorant? certianly.
In fact they often suffer from the Arrogance of ignorance logical fallacy.
A logical fallacy that seems to be enjoying a revival in this thread.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384071</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383977</id>
	<title>Re:As a UW Student...</title>
	<author>Khan</author>
	<datestamp>1245334620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a citizen of the State of Wisconsin, I'm glad to see where my tax dollars are being wasted. Thanks Gov. Doyle and our dumba$$ lawmakers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a citizen of the State of Wisconsin , I 'm glad to see where my tax dollars are being wasted .
Thanks Gov .
Doyle and our dumba $ $ lawmakers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a citizen of the State of Wisconsin, I'm glad to see where my tax dollars are being wasted.
Thanks Gov.
Doyle and our dumba$$ lawmakers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382741</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383623</id>
	<title>Outsource it along with the rest of HR</title>
	<author>xzvf</author>
	<datestamp>1245332640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Seriously, there are companies that do HR and can probably take over in a month.  I don't understand why government organizations are the only ones that still have pensions and refuse to outsource tasks they don't do well.  Payroll is simple and the deductions possible are well established any professional HR outsourcing company can handle it, plus be able to cleanly pass it to another company when their contract is up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously , there are companies that do HR and can probably take over in a month .
I do n't understand why government organizations are the only ones that still have pensions and refuse to outsource tasks they do n't do well .
Payroll is simple and the deductions possible are well established any professional HR outsourcing company can handle it , plus be able to cleanly pass it to another company when their contract is up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously, there are companies that do HR and can probably take over in a month.
I don't understand why government organizations are the only ones that still have pensions and refuse to outsource tasks they don't do well.
Payroll is simple and the deductions possible are well established any professional HR outsourcing company can handle it, plus be able to cleanly pass it to another company when their contract is up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28395045</id>
	<title>Re:As a UW Student...</title>
	<author>TroyHaskin</author>
	<datestamp>1245403200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Same sentiment here.  A single university (UW-Madison) can barely upgrade correctly.  And when they do it sucks.

Adminstration has no clue what computer systems are and which ones are good for a single University let alone a state-wide system.  Good forbid someone walk over to the local CS department (if they even know what that stands for) and ask for advice, or ask if there are a few dozen Grad Students looking for tons of funding (longshot there, but oh well).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Same sentiment here .
A single university ( UW-Madison ) can barely upgrade correctly .
And when they do it sucks .
Adminstration has no clue what computer systems are and which ones are good for a single University let alone a state-wide system .
Good forbid someone walk over to the local CS department ( if they even know what that stands for ) and ask for advice , or ask if there are a few dozen Grad Students looking for tons of funding ( longshot there , but oh well ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Same sentiment here.
A single university (UW-Madison) can barely upgrade correctly.
And when they do it sucks.
Adminstration has no clue what computer systems are and which ones are good for a single University let alone a state-wide system.
Good forbid someone walk over to the local CS department (if they even know what that stands for) and ask for advice, or ask if there are a few dozen Grad Students looking for tons of funding (longshot there, but oh well).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382741</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385891</id>
	<title>Bug in CSS on /. ? (xp opera 10)</title>
	<author>rs79</author>
	<datestamp>1245352080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Looks like somebody left out a close table data cell. Sometime after midnight reply started behaving very oddly.</p><p>Given there's  articles about opera this week is it really too much to expect that changes are tested in opera?</p><p><a href="http://rs79.vrx.net/.oops/slashdot/oops7.jpg" title="vrx.net">http://rs79.vrx.net/.oops/slashdot/oops7.jpg</a> [vrx.net]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Looks like somebody left out a close table data cell .
Sometime after midnight reply started behaving very oddly.Given there 's articles about opera this week is it really too much to expect that changes are tested in opera ? http : //rs79.vrx.net/.oops/slashdot/oops7.jpg [ vrx.net ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Looks like somebody left out a close table data cell.
Sometime after midnight reply started behaving very oddly.Given there's  articles about opera this week is it really too much to expect that changes are tested in opera?http://rs79.vrx.net/.oops/slashdot/oops7.jpg [vrx.net]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382631</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383547</id>
	<title>Moore's Law</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245332040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Because the cost of computer systems decreases with time, the expense of the new system should be lower than that of the one which it replaces.  The University of Wisconsin was capable of either implementing or purchasing a functional payroll system in 1975 running on hardware of that era.  According to Moore's law, simply replacing the existing 1975-vintage hardware with an equally powerful system in 2009 hardware should cost 1/2^17 as much as the 1975 system, that is<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.0000076 as much.</p><p>The article does not state what was the purchase price of the 1975 system. Assume that it was less than 2^17 * 28.4 million, that is, $3,722,444,800,000.00.   Then the exponentially decreasing expense of computer hardware is not decreasing fast enough to offset the increasing incompetence of the University of Wisconsin.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because the cost of computer systems decreases with time , the expense of the new system should be lower than that of the one which it replaces .
The University of Wisconsin was capable of either implementing or purchasing a functional payroll system in 1975 running on hardware of that era .
According to Moore 's law , simply replacing the existing 1975-vintage hardware with an equally powerful system in 2009 hardware should cost 1/2 ^ 17 as much as the 1975 system , that is .0000076 as much.The article does not state what was the purchase price of the 1975 system .
Assume that it was less than 2 ^ 17 * 28.4 million , that is , $ 3,722,444,800,000.00 .
Then the exponentially decreasing expense of computer hardware is not decreasing fast enough to offset the increasing incompetence of the University of Wisconsin .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because the cost of computer systems decreases with time, the expense of the new system should be lower than that of the one which it replaces.
The University of Wisconsin was capable of either implementing or purchasing a functional payroll system in 1975 running on hardware of that era.
According to Moore's law, simply replacing the existing 1975-vintage hardware with an equally powerful system in 2009 hardware should cost 1/2^17 as much as the 1975 system, that is .0000076 as much.The article does not state what was the purchase price of the 1975 system.
Assume that it was less than 2^17 * 28.4 million, that is, $3,722,444,800,000.00.
Then the exponentially decreasing expense of computer hardware is not decreasing fast enough to offset the increasing incompetence of the University of Wisconsin.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383917</id>
	<title>Oracle?</title>
	<author>randomnote1</author>
	<datestamp>1245334260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What were they thinking?  I have seen nothing but horrors with Oracle's front end applications.  But seriously...how difficult is it to actually implement a decent payroll system?</htmltext>
<tokenext>What were they thinking ?
I have seen nothing but horrors with Oracle 's front end applications .
But seriously...how difficult is it to actually implement a decent payroll system ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What were they thinking?
I have seen nothing but horrors with Oracle's front end applications.
But seriously...how difficult is it to actually implement a decent payroll system?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385111</id>
	<title>Re:As a UW Student...</title>
	<author>schwanerhill</author>
	<datestamp>1245343740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Tuition is just a way to trim down their applicant pool. The state pays much more of your tuition than you do.</p></div><p>That's a cute one-liner, but if only it were true. The UW-Madison <a href="http://www.admissions.wisc.edu/costs.php" title="wisc.edu">in-state tuition</a> [wisc.edu] ($8020 for 2009-2010) is about the same as the state subsidy per student ($9379, <a href="http://www.utexas.edu/president/speeches/tuition\_funding\_2009.pdf" title="utexas.edu">2008-2009</a> [utexas.edu]). This doesn't factor in the additional $8040 per student for room and board. Nonresident of Wisconsin/Minnesota tuition is about $22,000 plus room and board.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Tuition is just a way to trim down their applicant pool .
The state pays much more of your tuition than you do.That 's a cute one-liner , but if only it were true .
The UW-Madison in-state tuition [ wisc.edu ] ( $ 8020 for 2009-2010 ) is about the same as the state subsidy per student ( $ 9379 , 2008-2009 [ utexas.edu ] ) .
This does n't factor in the additional $ 8040 per student for room and board .
Nonresident of Wisconsin/Minnesota tuition is about $ 22,000 plus room and board .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Tuition is just a way to trim down their applicant pool.
The state pays much more of your tuition than you do.That's a cute one-liner, but if only it were true.
The UW-Madison in-state tuition [wisc.edu] ($8020 for 2009-2010) is about the same as the state subsidy per student ($9379, 2008-2009 [utexas.edu]).
This doesn't factor in the additional $8040 per student for room and board.
Nonresident of Wisconsin/Minnesota tuition is about $22,000 plus room and board.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384007</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28390991</id>
	<title>Re:Corruption</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1245430740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> Is suspect you only know what people tell you corruption smells like. How many corruption cases have you investigated and tried? what's that? NONE? STFU</p><p>This isn't a lot of money for a state wide system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is suspect you only know what people tell you corruption smells like .
How many corruption cases have you investigated and tried ?
what 's that ?
NONE ? STFUThis is n't a lot of money for a state wide system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Is suspect you only know what people tell you corruption smells like.
How many corruption cases have you investigated and tried?
what's that?
NONE? STFUThis isn't a lot of money for a state wide system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383225</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383557</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>FudRucker</author>
	<datestamp>1245332160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>i dont think they want it fixed, they want a broken system that they can milk for all its worth.</htmltext>
<tokenext>i dont think they want it fixed , they want a broken system that they can milk for all its worth .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i dont think they want it fixed, they want a broken system that they can milk for all its worth.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28387869</id>
	<title>Re:A university has lots of unpaid laborers</title>
	<author>Bysshe</author>
	<datestamp>1245416640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Right, because you really want 1000 18 yr old students having access to professor's salary information.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Right , because you really want 1000 18 yr old students having access to professor 's salary information .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Right, because you really want 1000 18 yr old students having access to professor's salary information.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384151</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28386149</id>
	<title>I bet a group of students can fix it in 4 Months</title>
	<author>Qbertino</author>
	<datestamp>1245354480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I bet a group of enthusiatic CS/IT students with programming skills and maybe one teacher with real life experience can build and/or fix this in 4 months. Give them the tools, have them prepare by giving them access to all personell doing payroll stuff and familiar with the process of payroll and pay them a good salary plus a bonus if they finish it before next winter-semester is over. Give them option to do their thesis or degree paper on the project. Add in a few law students if complicated German-style tax stuff is involved for some extra interdisciplinary flavour and results.</p><p>Voila! Top-of-the-line payroll system for something like 100 000$.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... And, sadly, I also bet that that won't happen, because then someone would have to admit that he burned 20+ Million on a project that was implemented start to finish with less than a tenth the money. Sometimes the sad and sorry state of our profession in some places makes me want to cry.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I bet a group of enthusiatic CS/IT students with programming skills and maybe one teacher with real life experience can build and/or fix this in 4 months .
Give them the tools , have them prepare by giving them access to all personell doing payroll stuff and familiar with the process of payroll and pay them a good salary plus a bonus if they finish it before next winter-semester is over .
Give them option to do their thesis or degree paper on the project .
Add in a few law students if complicated German-style tax stuff is involved for some extra interdisciplinary flavour and results.Voila !
Top-of-the-line payroll system for something like 100 000 $ .
... And , sadly , I also bet that that wo n't happen , because then someone would have to admit that he burned 20 + Million on a project that was implemented start to finish with less than a tenth the money .
Sometimes the sad and sorry state of our profession in some places makes me want to cry .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I bet a group of enthusiatic CS/IT students with programming skills and maybe one teacher with real life experience can build and/or fix this in 4 months.
Give them the tools, have them prepare by giving them access to all personell doing payroll stuff and familiar with the process of payroll and pay them a good salary plus a bonus if they finish it before next winter-semester is over.
Give them option to do their thesis or degree paper on the project.
Add in a few law students if complicated German-style tax stuff is involved for some extra interdisciplinary flavour and results.Voila!
Top-of-the-line payroll system for something like 100 000$.
... And, sadly, I also bet that that won't happen, because then someone would have to admit that he burned 20+ Million on a project that was implemented start to finish with less than a tenth the money.
Sometimes the sad and sorry state of our profession in some places makes me want to cry.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384673</id>
	<title>Re:I dont understand.</title>
	<author>Ex-MislTech</author>
	<datestamp>1245339660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>An upgrade can cost as much as nepotism will allow in a<br>system that is filled with cronyism and corruption.</p><p>What we have is a race to loot as much as can be looted<br>while the ship has not yet sank beneath the waves.</p><p>We have several 100 trillion in derivatives looming in<br>the distance that damn few will even write about in the media.</p><p><a href="http://www.marketwatch.com/story/derivatives-are-the-new-ticking-time-bomb" title="marketwatch.com">http://www.marketwatch.com/story/derivatives-are-the-new-ticking-time-bomb</a> [marketwatch.com]</p><p>We have The Fed printing 9 Trillion and handing it out, but when<br>asked where it went they respond "I don't know".</p><p><a href="http://www.drudge.com/news/121850/fed-inspector-general-claims-9-trillion" title="drudge.com">http://www.drudge.com/news/121850/fed-inspector-general-claims-9-trillion</a> [drudge.com]</p><p>Poof the magic fairies ran off with it and now the american<br>tax payer is in debt for it even though we forgot to write<br>it down, aren't you glad we are not your accountant ?</p><p>The payroll system could prolly be replaced with a canned solution<br>by numerous vendors, or an open source one that is already available<br>could be scaled up with the help of some post grad students.</p><p>Like the giant ponzimonium that is about to be unleashed it is<br>is just another of the many thefts thru corruption that are<br>running amok.</p><p><a href="http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/20/news/economy/fraud\_ponzi.reut/index.htm" title="cnn.com">http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/20/news/economy/fraud\_ponzi.reut/index.htm</a> [cnn.com]</p><p>We have yet to see this mess really unspool.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>An upgrade can cost as much as nepotism will allow in asystem that is filled with cronyism and corruption.What we have is a race to loot as much as can be lootedwhile the ship has not yet sank beneath the waves.We have several 100 trillion in derivatives looming inthe distance that damn few will even write about in the media.http : //www.marketwatch.com/story/derivatives-are-the-new-ticking-time-bomb [ marketwatch.com ] We have The Fed printing 9 Trillion and handing it out , but whenasked where it went they respond " I do n't know " .http : //www.drudge.com/news/121850/fed-inspector-general-claims-9-trillion [ drudge.com ] Poof the magic fairies ran off with it and now the americantax payer is in debt for it even though we forgot to writeit down , are n't you glad we are not your accountant ? The payroll system could prolly be replaced with a canned solutionby numerous vendors , or an open source one that is already availablecould be scaled up with the help of some post grad students.Like the giant ponzimonium that is about to be unleashed it isis just another of the many thefts thru corruption that arerunning amok.http : //money.cnn.com/2009/03/20/news/economy/fraud \ _ponzi.reut/index.htm [ cnn.com ] We have yet to see this mess really unspool .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An upgrade can cost as much as nepotism will allow in asystem that is filled with cronyism and corruption.What we have is a race to loot as much as can be lootedwhile the ship has not yet sank beneath the waves.We have several 100 trillion in derivatives looming inthe distance that damn few will even write about in the media.http://www.marketwatch.com/story/derivatives-are-the-new-ticking-time-bomb [marketwatch.com]We have The Fed printing 9 Trillion and handing it out, but whenasked where it went they respond "I don't know".http://www.drudge.com/news/121850/fed-inspector-general-claims-9-trillion [drudge.com]Poof the magic fairies ran off with it and now the americantax payer is in debt for it even though we forgot to writeit down, aren't you glad we are not your accountant ?The payroll system could prolly be replaced with a canned solutionby numerous vendors, or an open source one that is already availablecould be scaled up with the help of some post grad students.Like the giant ponzimonium that is about to be unleashed it isis just another of the many thefts thru corruption that arerunning amok.http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/20/news/economy/fraud\_ponzi.reut/index.htm [cnn.com]We have yet to see this mess really unspool.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382631</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28391011</id>
	<title>Re:Bad Title</title>
	<author>juan2074</author>
	<datestamp>1245430800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The only people who recommend PeopleSoft are the ones who have never used it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The only people who recommend PeopleSoft are the ones who have never used it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only people who recommend PeopleSoft are the ones who have never used it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382817</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28388395</id>
	<title>The Management should be fired</title>
	<author>y86</author>
	<datestamp>1245419700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The management should be fired for allowing such a complicated payroll system to exist.  How hard is it to pay a salary.... these type of morons(I mean Elite) could mess up a wet dream.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The management should be fired for allowing such a complicated payroll system to exist .
How hard is it to pay a salary.... these type of morons ( I mean Elite ) could mess up a wet dream .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The management should be fired for allowing such a complicated payroll system to exist.
How hard is it to pay a salary.... these type of morons(I mean Elite) could mess up a wet dream.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28388257</id>
	<title>Re:I bet a group of students can fix it in 4 Month</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245418980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What a load of absolute crap!</p><p>As one who has had the pleasure of 'help' from 'enthusiatic CS/IT' students, let me tell you, they know FUCK about developing real applications.  They wouldn't know where to start.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What a load of absolute crap ! As one who has had the pleasure of 'help ' from 'enthusiatic CS/IT ' students , let me tell you , they know FUCK about developing real applications .
They would n't know where to start .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What a load of absolute crap!As one who has had the pleasure of 'help' from 'enthusiatic CS/IT' students, let me tell you, they know FUCK about developing real applications.
They wouldn't know where to start.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28386149</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385857</id>
	<title>Consultants</title>
	<author>rs79</author>
	<datestamp>1245351480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"<i> <b>How can an upgrade cost $40m?</b></i> "</p><p>Hello. In understand your problem and have special expertise that will enable you to understand. Just sign this PO for $1.2 and out consulting team will immediately begin to undertake a feasability study to help you understand the question.</p><p>Now if you'll just pass me your watch I'll tell you what time it is.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" How can an upgrade cost $ 40m ?
" Hello. In understand your problem and have special expertise that will enable you to understand .
Just sign this PO for $ 1.2 and out consulting team will immediately begin to undertake a feasability study to help you understand the question.Now if you 'll just pass me your watch I 'll tell you what time it is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>" How can an upgrade cost $40m?
"Hello. In understand your problem and have special expertise that will enable you to understand.
Just sign this PO for $1.2 and out consulting team will immediately begin to undertake a feasability study to help you understand the question.Now if you'll just pass me your watch I'll tell you what time it is.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382631</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384149</id>
	<title>Re:FRIST!!!!</title>
	<author>paazin</author>
	<datestamp>1245335760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>frist</p></div></blockquote><p>
What is it with these fans of Senator Bill Frist and them always wanting to sound off about him at the start of every slashdot thread?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>frist What is it with these fans of Senator Bill Frist and them always wanting to sound off about him at the start of every slashdot thread ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>frist
What is it with these fans of Senator Bill Frist and them always wanting to sound off about him at the start of every slashdot thread?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382617</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28386977</id>
	<title>'A language so old'</title>
	<author>dugeen</author>
	<datestamp>1245406860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"The program, developed in 1975, is written in a computer language so obsolete that few programmers know how to fix it." How about some details - which language? MAD? NELIAC? TRAC? CPS? Culler-Fried system? Python?</htmltext>
<tokenext>" The program , developed in 1975 , is written in a computer language so obsolete that few programmers know how to fix it .
" How about some details - which language ?
MAD ? NELIAC ?
TRAC ? CPS ?
Culler-Fried system ?
Python ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"The program, developed in 1975, is written in a computer language so obsolete that few programmers know how to fix it.
" How about some details - which language?
MAD? NELIAC?
TRAC? CPS?
Culler-Fried system?
Python?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383243</id>
	<title>This is the most expense that I ever have heard...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245330480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why they don't start to getting the specifications now, and in few years they should have one brand new system, running in new machines, and probably faster than the last one. In this case is the better choice, instead of try understand the old system and try make some sort of patches that is with this price some sort of crazy thing.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why they do n't start to getting the specifications now , and in few years they should have one brand new system , running in new machines , and probably faster than the last one .
In this case is the better choice , instead of try understand the old system and try make some sort of patches that is with this price some sort of crazy thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why they don't start to getting the specifications now, and in few years they should have one brand new system, running in new machines, and probably faster than the last one.
In this case is the better choice, instead of try understand the old system and try make some sort of patches that is with this price some sort of crazy thing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384989</id>
	<title>Well, TimeTrex may be a good start...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245341820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://www.timetrex.com/" title="timetrex.com" rel="nofollow">TimeTrex</a> [timetrex.com] may be a good start... Its the only open source payroll and time management software that I've seen that is even remotely capable. Its extremely powerful and works great for organizations with many thousands of employees across multiple countries/states/unions.</p><p>Not only that but its currently used in some of the largest most well known Universities in the world.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>TimeTrex [ timetrex.com ] may be a good start... Its the only open source payroll and time management software that I 've seen that is even remotely capable .
Its extremely powerful and works great for organizations with many thousands of employees across multiple countries/states/unions.Not only that but its currently used in some of the largest most well known Universities in the world .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>TimeTrex [timetrex.com] may be a good start... Its the only open source payroll and time management software that I've seen that is even remotely capable.
Its extremely powerful and works great for organizations with many thousands of employees across multiple countries/states/unions.Not only that but its currently used in some of the largest most well known Universities in the world.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384259</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>stephanruby</author>
	<datestamp>1245336420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>What's *more* disgusting is that by the looks of it,</p></div></blockquote><p>
It's disgusting. I agree, but not for the reasons you mention. Usually, it's just because the people at the top of a University have no clue about technical matters. To get to be a Regent for instance, you need good political skills, or you need to be rich, or you need to be part of a well-known, rich, and powerful family.

Sadly, many crucial technical decisions that involve a ton of money get made around a large conference table, or they get made on someone else's expense account, or they get made by an alpha male who was a great footballer during his College years -- so he thinks he's qualified to do anything.</p><blockquote><div><p>Get your *existing* IT team,</p></div></blockquote><p>When your most capable existing IT staff already works 50 hours a week, and is already exempt from receiving over time. Why would they want to participate in such a project and give up an additional 30 hours of time for basically zero money and a ton of heart-aches? What's the upside? No, man. A competent IT staff knows when to say "no".</p><p>And even if such an IT staffer was interested in doing such a project in the first place. He might just be better served in starting his own open source project. At least with an open source project, you would have more freedom and flexibility, and if you're any good, you can pick your own customers/users, and assuming you were careful -- you can take the project with you if you leave to another employer.</p><p>Same thing with Professors. Don't you think they have better things to do? like research, publishing, or teaching? Even Richard Feynman, he said the only reason he got anything done, was because he was adamant about refusing the drivel committee work that his schools were always trying to pawn off onto him.</p><blockquote><div><p>hire a bunch of programmers directly (hey, you're a University... I wonder where you can get a crapload of cheap, intellectual labour nearby,</p></div> </blockquote><p>
Yeah, if you think that throwing more bodies at a problem is a solution, or that changing bodies every six months following the school year is a good idea, then may be you should read "The Mythical-Man Month" by Frederick Brooks and "Peopleware" by DeMarco.</p><blockquote><div><p>trained in the art of programming properly</p></div></blockquote><p>
Ah, I see. You must have gone to a school where they actually taught you programming. Good for you. I know those schools exist, I've just never been to one. So you'll have to forgive my ignorance. In my school, they taught me "how to think", and they taught me the "Science" of Computers. Believe me, I was as shocked by this news as anyone else. The programming, I had to learn it on my own, preferably before or at least during the first week of class. Now don't get me wrong, when I got out of there, my ego was huge and the knowledge I gained was tremendous, but I was still an idiot by then and I still have the nagging suspicion that I might still be an idiot now -- ten years later (I'm just less of an idiot hopefully). </p><p>Now, this is not to say that I approve the way projects are done in a major University system like this. It's just that I hope you begin to understand that Universities have some deep institutional problems that can not be solved by low level people. And that the people at the top, they don't really care, their pocketbooks and/or their egos are well fed by the existing system as it is, so they don't see any major need for a change. </p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What 's * more * disgusting is that by the looks of it , It 's disgusting .
I agree , but not for the reasons you mention .
Usually , it 's just because the people at the top of a University have no clue about technical matters .
To get to be a Regent for instance , you need good political skills , or you need to be rich , or you need to be part of a well-known , rich , and powerful family .
Sadly , many crucial technical decisions that involve a ton of money get made around a large conference table , or they get made on someone else 's expense account , or they get made by an alpha male who was a great footballer during his College years -- so he thinks he 's qualified to do anything.Get your * existing * IT team,When your most capable existing IT staff already works 50 hours a week , and is already exempt from receiving over time .
Why would they want to participate in such a project and give up an additional 30 hours of time for basically zero money and a ton of heart-aches ?
What 's the upside ?
No , man .
A competent IT staff knows when to say " no " .And even if such an IT staffer was interested in doing such a project in the first place .
He might just be better served in starting his own open source project .
At least with an open source project , you would have more freedom and flexibility , and if you 're any good , you can pick your own customers/users , and assuming you were careful -- you can take the project with you if you leave to another employer.Same thing with Professors .
Do n't you think they have better things to do ?
like research , publishing , or teaching ?
Even Richard Feynman , he said the only reason he got anything done , was because he was adamant about refusing the drivel committee work that his schools were always trying to pawn off onto him.hire a bunch of programmers directly ( hey , you 're a University... I wonder where you can get a crapload of cheap , intellectual labour nearby , Yeah , if you think that throwing more bodies at a problem is a solution , or that changing bodies every six months following the school year is a good idea , then may be you should read " The Mythical-Man Month " by Frederick Brooks and " Peopleware " by DeMarco.trained in the art of programming properly Ah , I see .
You must have gone to a school where they actually taught you programming .
Good for you .
I know those schools exist , I 've just never been to one .
So you 'll have to forgive my ignorance .
In my school , they taught me " how to think " , and they taught me the " Science " of Computers .
Believe me , I was as shocked by this news as anyone else .
The programming , I had to learn it on my own , preferably before or at least during the first week of class .
Now do n't get me wrong , when I got out of there , my ego was huge and the knowledge I gained was tremendous , but I was still an idiot by then and I still have the nagging suspicion that I might still be an idiot now -- ten years later ( I 'm just less of an idiot hopefully ) .
Now , this is not to say that I approve the way projects are done in a major University system like this .
It 's just that I hope you begin to understand that Universities have some deep institutional problems that can not be solved by low level people .
And that the people at the top , they do n't really care , their pocketbooks and/or their egos are well fed by the existing system as it is , so they do n't see any major need for a change .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What's *more* disgusting is that by the looks of it,
It's disgusting.
I agree, but not for the reasons you mention.
Usually, it's just because the people at the top of a University have no clue about technical matters.
To get to be a Regent for instance, you need good political skills, or you need to be rich, or you need to be part of a well-known, rich, and powerful family.
Sadly, many crucial technical decisions that involve a ton of money get made around a large conference table, or they get made on someone else's expense account, or they get made by an alpha male who was a great footballer during his College years -- so he thinks he's qualified to do anything.Get your *existing* IT team,When your most capable existing IT staff already works 50 hours a week, and is already exempt from receiving over time.
Why would they want to participate in such a project and give up an additional 30 hours of time for basically zero money and a ton of heart-aches?
What's the upside?
No, man.
A competent IT staff knows when to say "no".And even if such an IT staffer was interested in doing such a project in the first place.
He might just be better served in starting his own open source project.
At least with an open source project, you would have more freedom and flexibility, and if you're any good, you can pick your own customers/users, and assuming you were careful -- you can take the project with you if you leave to another employer.Same thing with Professors.
Don't you think they have better things to do?
like research, publishing, or teaching?
Even Richard Feynman, he said the only reason he got anything done, was because he was adamant about refusing the drivel committee work that his schools were always trying to pawn off onto him.hire a bunch of programmers directly (hey, you're a University... I wonder where you can get a crapload of cheap, intellectual labour nearby, 
Yeah, if you think that throwing more bodies at a problem is a solution, or that changing bodies every six months following the school year is a good idea, then may be you should read "The Mythical-Man Month" by Frederick Brooks and "Peopleware" by DeMarco.trained in the art of programming properly
Ah, I see.
You must have gone to a school where they actually taught you programming.
Good for you.
I know those schools exist, I've just never been to one.
So you'll have to forgive my ignorance.
In my school, they taught me "how to think", and they taught me the "Science" of Computers.
Believe me, I was as shocked by this news as anyone else.
The programming, I had to learn it on my own, preferably before or at least during the first week of class.
Now don't get me wrong, when I got out of there, my ego was huge and the knowledge I gained was tremendous, but I was still an idiot by then and I still have the nagging suspicion that I might still be an idiot now -- ten years later (I'm just less of an idiot hopefully).
Now, this is not to say that I approve the way projects are done in a major University system like this.
It's just that I hope you begin to understand that Universities have some deep institutional problems that can not be solved by low level people.
And that the people at the top, they don't really care, their pocketbooks and/or their egos are well fed by the existing system as it is, so they don't see any major need for a change. 
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384635</id>
	<title>Re:As a UW Student...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245339360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wisconsin, home of the Badgers, Beer, Bratwurst, and Budget Busting Bloatware.</p><p>There's a license plate motto in there somewhere...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wisconsin , home of the Badgers , Beer , Bratwurst , and Budget Busting Bloatware.There 's a license plate motto in there somewhere.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wisconsin, home of the Badgers, Beer, Bratwurst, and Budget Busting Bloatware.There's a license plate motto in there somewhere...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382741</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28390445</id>
	<title>Re:Some kids are profoundly ignorant.</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1245428340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, they are technically challenging, but that's not the bulk of the cost.<br>Payroll today is tightly integrated to other aspect of the business.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , they are technically challenging , but that 's not the bulk of the cost.Payroll today is tightly integrated to other aspect of the business .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, they are technically challenging, but that's not the bulk of the cost.Payroll today is tightly integrated to other aspect of the business.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385077</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28392885</id>
	<title>Re:I bet a group of students can fix it in 4 Month</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245438900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've developed mainframe software in COBOL. It isn't difficult, but you've obviously no clue as to what is involved.</p><p>Are your enthusiastic students going to read all the legislation that impacts this new system? Are they going to document all the contractual obligations that do not fit into a cookie-cutter formula? Are they going to write functional specifications from poorly-documented parts of the old system?</p><p>No, a few law students aren't going to cut it</p><p>Besides, you don't want CS students. You want competent software <b>engineers</b>.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've developed mainframe software in COBOL .
It is n't difficult , but you 've obviously no clue as to what is involved.Are your enthusiastic students going to read all the legislation that impacts this new system ?
Are they going to document all the contractual obligations that do not fit into a cookie-cutter formula ?
Are they going to write functional specifications from poorly-documented parts of the old system ? No , a few law students are n't going to cut itBesides , you do n't want CS students .
You want competent software engineers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've developed mainframe software in COBOL.
It isn't difficult, but you've obviously no clue as to what is involved.Are your enthusiastic students going to read all the legislation that impacts this new system?
Are they going to document all the contractual obligations that do not fit into a cookie-cutter formula?
Are they going to write functional specifications from poorly-documented parts of the old system?No, a few law students aren't going to cut itBesides, you don't want CS students.
You want competent software engineers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28386149</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383129</id>
	<title>Managers often have profound ignorance.</title>
	<author>Futurepower(R)</author>
	<datestamp>1245330060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>We see a lot of stories about this kind of thing on Slashdot. Often it is a politician showing that he or she is completely ignorant of technical issues, but wants his or her foolish opinions to be respected.

<br> <br>Maybe it wouldn't be sensible to attend a university that has such technically backward management.

<br> <br>The world will be a better place when all the managers retire who were raised without computers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>We see a lot of stories about this kind of thing on Slashdot .
Often it is a politician showing that he or she is completely ignorant of technical issues , but wants his or her foolish opinions to be respected .
Maybe it would n't be sensible to attend a university that has such technically backward management .
The world will be a better place when all the managers retire who were raised without computers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We see a lot of stories about this kind of thing on Slashdot.
Often it is a politician showing that he or she is completely ignorant of technical issues, but wants his or her foolish opinions to be respected.
Maybe it wouldn't be sensible to attend a university that has such technically backward management.
The world will be a better place when all the managers retire who were raised without computers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382621</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383127</id>
	<title>Re:Prospectus</title>
	<author>wilder\_card</author>
	<datestamp>1245330060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If it is a typical complex, highly-customized business system, it will have:
</p><ol>
<li>years and years of poorly- or un-documented code patches, fixes, etc.</li><li>lots of legacy code which is no longer used but never removed</li><li>Dozens of external systems which extract information from it, probably each in a different way</li><li>large amounts of critical information not written down but scattered among different user groups</li></ol><p>
So, I'd say your Phase 1 above is a vast under-estimation.  And the idea that you can farm it out to an external organization, especially one without close personal contact with users, is pure fantasy.
</p><p>
At the end of your process you'll have a system that does maybe 20\% of what the users actually need, and 50\% of which is stuff no one needs any longer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If it is a typical complex , highly-customized business system , it will have : years and years of poorly- or un-documented code patches , fixes , etc.lots of legacy code which is no longer used but never removedDozens of external systems which extract information from it , probably each in a different waylarge amounts of critical information not written down but scattered among different user groups So , I 'd say your Phase 1 above is a vast under-estimation .
And the idea that you can farm it out to an external organization , especially one without close personal contact with users , is pure fantasy .
At the end of your process you 'll have a system that does maybe 20 \ % of what the users actually need , and 50 \ % of which is stuff no one needs any longer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If it is a typical complex, highly-customized business system, it will have:

years and years of poorly- or un-documented code patches, fixes, etc.lots of legacy code which is no longer used but never removedDozens of external systems which extract information from it, probably each in a different waylarge amounts of critical information not written down but scattered among different user groups
So, I'd say your Phase 1 above is a vast under-estimation.
And the idea that you can farm it out to an external organization, especially one without close personal contact with users, is pure fantasy.
At the end of your process you'll have a system that does maybe 20\% of what the users actually need, and 50\% of which is stuff no one needs any longer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382865</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28387019</id>
	<title>Nonsense.</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1245407280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I worked in a big university doing complicated IT stuff in school administration. I am 100\% positive our team did not have the expertise necessary to have migrated all our systems and processes from COBOL and ALGOL programs (yeah, that is what it was) to a RDBMS (which was not a novel idea even back then), let alon an ERP.</p><p>I have met many people working in Universities, both in administrative roles and in research, they simple don't have the expertise required to take such a huge migration project to a happy ending (there is no shame on admiting that, I am sure people working in consultancies could not get their heads around some of the stuff people in research centres are doing,  they may have a better chance ate understanding administrative stuff , but even that is not a given. We have specialization for a reason).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I worked in a big university doing complicated IT stuff in school administration .
I am 100 \ % positive our team did not have the expertise necessary to have migrated all our systems and processes from COBOL and ALGOL programs ( yeah , that is what it was ) to a RDBMS ( which was not a novel idea even back then ) , let alon an ERP.I have met many people working in Universities , both in administrative roles and in research , they simple do n't have the expertise required to take such a huge migration project to a happy ending ( there is no shame on admiting that , I am sure people working in consultancies could not get their heads around some of the stuff people in research centres are doing , they may have a better chance ate understanding administrative stuff , but even that is not a given .
We have specialization for a reason ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I worked in a big university doing complicated IT stuff in school administration.
I am 100\% positive our team did not have the expertise necessary to have migrated all our systems and processes from COBOL and ALGOL programs (yeah, that is what it was) to a RDBMS (which was not a novel idea even back then), let alon an ERP.I have met many people working in Universities, both in administrative roles and in research, they simple don't have the expertise required to take such a huge migration project to a happy ending (there is no shame on admiting that, I am sure people working in consultancies could not get their heads around some of the stuff people in research centres are doing,  they may have a better chance ate understanding administrative stuff , but even that is not a given.
We have specialization for a reason).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383043</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>aztektum</author>
	<datestamp>1245329820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>srlsy! Also, it was made in the 70's! How complex can a program on a handful of punch cards be?!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>srlsy !
Also , it was made in the 70 's !
How complex can a program on a handful of punch cards be ?
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>srlsy!
Also, it was made in the 70's!
How complex can a program on a handful of punch cards be?
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382645</id>
	<title>That's a nice budget you got there</title>
	<author>xdor</author>
	<datestamp>1245328320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I would totally sign up to do this job.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would totally sign up to do this job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would totally sign up to do this job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385721</id>
	<title>Re:I dont understand.</title>
	<author>knightghost</author>
	<datestamp>1245350160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm doing that same thing for $3.2m right now.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm doing that same thing for $ 3.2m right now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm doing that same thing for $3.2m right now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383395</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385351</id>
	<title>Re:A university has lots of unpaid laborers</title>
	<author>brusk</author>
	<datestamp>1245346920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>They'll have to work for free under that system--the system you'd end up with won't be able to send anyone a paycheck.</htmltext>
<tokenext>They 'll have to work for free under that system--the system you 'd end up with wo n't be able to send anyone a paycheck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They'll have to work for free under that system--the system you'd end up with won't be able to send anyone a paycheck.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384151</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28387753</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245415620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Students at Uni are not properly trained. I've spent much of my carreer training them. Passing a test on polymorphic design or databases is not the same as actually understanding it.</p><p>I would never go on a project which has only grads in it.</p><p>Training is part of the job, no matter where I go. Ipso facto...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Students at Uni are not properly trained .
I 've spent much of my carreer training them .
Passing a test on polymorphic design or databases is not the same as actually understanding it.I would never go on a project which has only grads in it.Training is part of the job , no matter where I go .
Ipso facto.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Students at Uni are not properly trained.
I've spent much of my carreer training them.
Passing a test on polymorphic design or databases is not the same as actually understanding it.I would never go on a project which has only grads in it.Training is part of the job, no matter where I go.
Ipso facto...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385227</id>
	<title>I'll fix it..</title>
	<author>Wescotte</author>
	<datestamp>1245345360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Gimme the ~12million left you'll think it'll cost to fix and I'll handle the books the old fashion way. I'll cut checks by hand and be on call 24/7/365 for any/all problems related to it for the next 30 years.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Gim me the ~ 12million left you 'll think it 'll cost to fix and I 'll handle the books the old fashion way .
I 'll cut checks by hand and be on call 24/7/365 for any/all problems related to it for the next 30 years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Gimme the ~12million left you'll think it'll cost to fix and I'll handle the books the old fashion way.
I'll cut checks by hand and be on call 24/7/365 for any/all problems related to it for the next 30 years.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385663</id>
	<title>Re:The money goes quickly on these projects</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245349680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If they already burned $28M, and promise it will be finished for another $12M ($40M total), I guarantee with final working system will end up costing $55-60M.  Having seen a few projects like this it is extremely unlikely they deliver it $40M.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If they already burned $ 28M , and promise it will be finished for another $ 12M ( $ 40M total ) , I guarantee with final working system will end up costing $ 55-60M .
Having seen a few projects like this it is extremely unlikely they deliver it $ 40M .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If they already burned $28M, and promise it will be finished for another $12M ($40M total), I guarantee with final working system will end up costing $55-60M.
Having seen a few projects like this it is extremely unlikely they deliver it $40M.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383293</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384007</id>
	<title>Re:As a UW Student...</title>
	<author>Brian Gordon</author>
	<datestamp>1245334800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Tuition is just a way to trim down their applicant pool. The state pays much more of your tuition than you do.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Tuition is just a way to trim down their applicant pool .
The state pays much more of your tuition than you do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Tuition is just a way to trim down their applicant pool.
The state pays much more of your tuition than you do.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382741</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385051</id>
	<title>load of crap</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245342840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>complete load of crap<br>someone got rich out of this</p><p>we moved to alesco from a near manual system, for far more employees than described here within six months. this included<br>a test environment, face to face training and a rollback scheme.</p><p>the saddest part? i work for the public sector.</p><p>if cashed up university boffins cant figure out how to migrate only 60,000 people to a new payrole system, yet public sector (traditionally known for being lazy and unproductive) can do it with all our extra leave, allowances and perks then my view of seppos hasnt changed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>complete load of crapsomeone got rich out of thiswe moved to alesco from a near manual system , for far more employees than described here within six months .
this includeda test environment , face to face training and a rollback scheme.the saddest part ?
i work for the public sector.if cashed up university boffins cant figure out how to migrate only 60,000 people to a new payrole system , yet public sector ( traditionally known for being lazy and unproductive ) can do it with all our extra leave , allowances and perks then my view of seppos hasnt changed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>complete load of crapsomeone got rich out of thiswe moved to alesco from a near manual system, for far more employees than described here within six months.
this includeda test environment, face to face training and a rollback scheme.the saddest part?
i work for the public sector.if cashed up university boffins cant figure out how to migrate only 60,000 people to a new payrole system, yet public sector (traditionally known for being lazy and unproductive) can do it with all our extra leave, allowances and perks then my view of seppos hasnt changed.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384217</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>magarity</author>
	<datestamp>1245336180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>What's *more* disgusting is that by the looks of it, the IT people at the University are probably barely getting a look in - it's being project-managed by external companies. Come on, stop faffing about; seriously, this is just stupid. Get your *existing* IT team, hire a bunch of programmers</i> <br>
&nbsp; <br>If you'd RTFA, you'd see that *40* staff from the IT department are in on the project.  But that's actually a problem - the existing people typically approach a replacement as a set of tweaks to what is already there just as a matter of human nature.  Furthermore, the people who are working there now are in place because they've been taught/trained/experienced in *maintaining* the current systems, NOT because they are taught/trained/experienced in developing new systems.<br>
&nbsp; <br>They need outside people who know what they're doing and have the executive sponsorship to do what needs to be done.  TFA specifically faults poor project management and planning and that's definitely what causes project like this to fail, NOT because the in house staff have not been used to do the work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What 's * more * disgusting is that by the looks of it , the IT people at the University are probably barely getting a look in - it 's being project-managed by external companies .
Come on , stop faffing about ; seriously , this is just stupid .
Get your * existing * IT team , hire a bunch of programmers   If you 'd RTFA , you 'd see that * 40 * staff from the IT department are in on the project .
But that 's actually a problem - the existing people typically approach a replacement as a set of tweaks to what is already there just as a matter of human nature .
Furthermore , the people who are working there now are in place because they 've been taught/trained/experienced in * maintaining * the current systems , NOT because they are taught/trained/experienced in developing new systems .
  They need outside people who know what they 're doing and have the executive sponsorship to do what needs to be done .
TFA specifically faults poor project management and planning and that 's definitely what causes project like this to fail , NOT because the in house staff have not been used to do the work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What's *more* disgusting is that by the looks of it, the IT people at the University are probably barely getting a look in - it's being project-managed by external companies.
Come on, stop faffing about; seriously, this is just stupid.
Get your *existing* IT team, hire a bunch of programmers 
  If you'd RTFA, you'd see that *40* staff from the IT department are in on the project.
But that's actually a problem - the existing people typically approach a replacement as a set of tweaks to what is already there just as a matter of human nature.
Furthermore, the people who are working there now are in place because they've been taught/trained/experienced in *maintaining* the current systems, NOT because they are taught/trained/experienced in developing new systems.
  They need outside people who know what they're doing and have the executive sponsorship to do what needs to be done.
TFA specifically faults poor project management and planning and that's definitely what causes project like this to fail, NOT because the in house staff have not been used to do the work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384467</id>
	<title>Re:The money goes quickly on these projects</title>
	<author>rhizome</author>
	<datestamp>1245338100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Here are some things to consider:</i></p><p>Sounds to me like a large chunk is consumed by "too many chiefs."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here are some things to consider : Sounds to me like a large chunk is consumed by " too many chiefs .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here are some things to consider:Sounds to me like a large chunk is consumed by "too many chiefs.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383293</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385485</id>
	<title>Re:Here's the real story</title>
	<author>Tablizer</author>
	<datestamp>1245348120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The only real PITA for COBOL is learning all the reserved words (there's a few hundred of them) and their semantics. Other than that, it's just drudgery.</p></div></blockquote><p>The trickiest thing I found about COBOL was figuring out the nesting of old-style IF statements. One period can make a huge difference and there are too many indentation conventions. That and the fact that if number fields overflowed, they just truncated instead of halted. That was a dumb language decision.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The only real PITA for COBOL is learning all the reserved words ( there 's a few hundred of them ) and their semantics .
Other than that , it 's just drudgery.The trickiest thing I found about COBOL was figuring out the nesting of old-style IF statements .
One period can make a huge difference and there are too many indentation conventions .
That and the fact that if number fields overflowed , they just truncated instead of halted .
That was a dumb language decision .
         </tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only real PITA for COBOL is learning all the reserved words (there's a few hundred of them) and their semantics.
Other than that, it's just drudgery.The trickiest thing I found about COBOL was figuring out the nesting of old-style IF statements.
One period can make a huge difference and there are too many indentation conventions.
That and the fact that if number fields overflowed, they just truncated instead of halted.
That was a dumb language decision.
         
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383469</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383483</id>
	<title>Well here's your problem</title>
	<author>BigSlowTarget</author>
	<datestamp>1245331740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Fire everyone, buy quickbooks is not an appropriate answer then?</p><p>Not to mention $40 million / 60k employees is $666 per employee - there's your problem.  Its the payroll system of the Apocalypse (integer math only need apply).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Fire everyone , buy quickbooks is not an appropriate answer then ? Not to mention $ 40 million / 60k employees is $ 666 per employee - there 's your problem .
Its the payroll system of the Apocalypse ( integer math only need apply ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fire everyone, buy quickbooks is not an appropriate answer then?Not to mention $40 million / 60k employees is $666 per employee - there's your problem.
Its the payroll system of the Apocalypse (integer math only need apply).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383551</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>RiotingPacifist</author>
	<datestamp>1245332100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>why not just run a course on the old language then employ one of your graduates to maintain it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>why not just run a course on the old language then employ one of your graduates to maintain it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>why not just run a course on the old language then employ one of your graduates to maintain it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28386055</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>atamido</author>
	<datestamp>1245353580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Most university IT groups don't have stellar project managers, which is the one thing that a project of this scale (and criticality) needs.</p></div><p>This.  Most universities pay their IT departments crap because they can get them so cheaply filled by students.  Most students don't have a full academic education, and almost none have real world experience.  The ones that do have the education and experience get higher paying jobs at private organizations.  Having a university IT department manage a project of this magnitude is asking for trouble.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most university IT groups do n't have stellar project managers , which is the one thing that a project of this scale ( and criticality ) needs.This .
Most universities pay their IT departments crap because they can get them so cheaply filled by students .
Most students do n't have a full academic education , and almost none have real world experience .
The ones that do have the education and experience get higher paying jobs at private organizations .
Having a university IT department manage a project of this magnitude is asking for trouble .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most university IT groups don't have stellar project managers, which is the one thing that a project of this scale (and criticality) needs.This.
Most universities pay their IT departments crap because they can get them so cheaply filled by students.
Most students don't have a full academic education, and almost none have real world experience.
The ones that do have the education and experience get higher paying jobs at private organizations.
Having a university IT department manage a project of this magnitude is asking for trouble.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383055</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382867</id>
	<title>What is so special about this university?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245329160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What is U of Wisconsin doing that they are unable to use a system developed for other universities with some minor tweaks? Is this a case of too many "cooks" wanting to add their own modules for odd requirements? Is some treehugger demanding a carbon footprint fine system to penalize staff that drive SUVs and have too big of a house? I cannot even begin to imagine the amount of excessive overhead they are paying for all involved in this project. Doesn't this school have a computer science department? I am sure they could get some grad students to help do this all in house.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What is U of Wisconsin doing that they are unable to use a system developed for other universities with some minor tweaks ?
Is this a case of too many " cooks " wanting to add their own modules for odd requirements ?
Is some treehugger demanding a carbon footprint fine system to penalize staff that drive SUVs and have too big of a house ?
I can not even begin to imagine the amount of excessive overhead they are paying for all involved in this project .
Does n't this school have a computer science department ?
I am sure they could get some grad students to help do this all in house .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What is U of Wisconsin doing that they are unable to use a system developed for other universities with some minor tweaks?
Is this a case of too many "cooks" wanting to add their own modules for odd requirements?
Is some treehugger demanding a carbon footprint fine system to penalize staff that drive SUVs and have too big of a house?
I cannot even begin to imagine the amount of excessive overhead they are paying for all involved in this project.
Doesn't this school have a computer science department?
I am sure they could get some grad students to help do this all in house.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385505</id>
	<title>Re:Stanford's conversion</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245348300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>All conversions to PeopleSoft are costly...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>All conversions to PeopleSoft are costly.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All conversions to PeopleSoft are costly...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383503</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28396163</id>
	<title>Re:Bad Title</title>
	<author>multimed</author>
	<datestamp>1245407760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just blame it on some reporter, huh? It was an embarrassment because tens of millions of tax dollars were spent with absolutely nothing productive to show for it. Bringing this sort of waste to light is exactly what real journalists should be doing. This ain't hounding some C-list celebrity every hour of the day, this is bringing to light horrible management. It's too much to ask for accountability - for those responsible to booted - because not enough people/voters actually care. But at least those of use who do, have been infromed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just blame it on some reporter , huh ?
It was an embarrassment because tens of millions of tax dollars were spent with absolutely nothing productive to show for it .
Bringing this sort of waste to light is exactly what real journalists should be doing .
This ai n't hounding some C-list celebrity every hour of the day , this is bringing to light horrible management .
It 's too much to ask for accountability - for those responsible to booted - because not enough people/voters actually care .
But at least those of use who do , have been infromed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just blame it on some reporter, huh?
It was an embarrassment because tens of millions of tax dollars were spent with absolutely nothing productive to show for it.
Bringing this sort of waste to light is exactly what real journalists should be doing.
This ain't hounding some C-list celebrity every hour of the day, this is bringing to light horrible management.
It's too much to ask for accountability - for those responsible to booted - because not enough people/voters actually care.
But at least those of use who do, have been infromed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383579</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28394891</id>
	<title>Re:Some kids are profoundly ignorant.</title>
	<author>Lost Race</author>
	<datestamp>1245402720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The world will be a better place when kids stop belittling their elders for no factual reason.</p></div></blockquote><p>Yeah, that'll happen any day now. 10,000 generations in a row with no progress<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... we're definitely due for it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The world will be a better place when kids stop belittling their elders for no factual reason.Yeah , that 'll happen any day now .
10,000 generations in a row with no progress ... we 're definitely due for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The world will be a better place when kids stop belittling their elders for no factual reason.Yeah, that'll happen any day now.
10,000 generations in a row with no progress ... we're definitely due for it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385077</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383081</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245329940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh My Good God.</p><p>You're not seriously suggesting that the university write it themselves. The university guys sit in an ivory tower and study algorithms and when it comes down to it, couldn't project manage their way out of a wet paper bag.</p><p>Dont get me wrong, the lecturers are brilliant brilliant people, but in my experience (we're writing software for the local university at the moment) the lecturers are exactly that -- lecturers, then you infer putting the *students* in to do the grunt work?!  I know from experience that it takes 1-2 years for a good software junior just to come up to speed AFTER COMPLETING a degree, because they need time to make all those silly mistakes that their senior co-workers can help them learn and grow from, these silly mistakes have a $ cost, but that's part of hiring people and growing programmers, but from the sounds of TFA, this particular project cant soak up many silly mistake problems from 2nd year students, chosen for cheap gruntwork.</p><p>Yes you need *good* programmers to make *good* software. But then you need good project managers to steer the ship to the destination, and you will not find that in-house.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh My Good God.You 're not seriously suggesting that the university write it themselves .
The university guys sit in an ivory tower and study algorithms and when it comes down to it , could n't project manage their way out of a wet paper bag.Dont get me wrong , the lecturers are brilliant brilliant people , but in my experience ( we 're writing software for the local university at the moment ) the lecturers are exactly that -- lecturers , then you infer putting the * students * in to do the grunt work ? !
I know from experience that it takes 1-2 years for a good software junior just to come up to speed AFTER COMPLETING a degree , because they need time to make all those silly mistakes that their senior co-workers can help them learn and grow from , these silly mistakes have a $ cost , but that 's part of hiring people and growing programmers , but from the sounds of TFA , this particular project cant soak up many silly mistake problems from 2nd year students , chosen for cheap gruntwork.Yes you need * good * programmers to make * good * software .
But then you need good project managers to steer the ship to the destination , and you will not find that in-house .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh My Good God.You're not seriously suggesting that the university write it themselves.
The university guys sit in an ivory tower and study algorithms and when it comes down to it, couldn't project manage their way out of a wet paper bag.Dont get me wrong, the lecturers are brilliant brilliant people, but in my experience (we're writing software for the local university at the moment) the lecturers are exactly that -- lecturers, then you infer putting the *students* in to do the grunt work?!
I know from experience that it takes 1-2 years for a good software junior just to come up to speed AFTER COMPLETING a degree, because they need time to make all those silly mistakes that their senior co-workers can help them learn and grow from, these silly mistakes have a $ cost, but that's part of hiring people and growing programmers, but from the sounds of TFA, this particular project cant soak up many silly mistake problems from 2nd year students, chosen for cheap gruntwork.Yes you need *good* programmers to make *good* software.
But then you need good project managers to steer the ship to the destination, and you will not find that in-house.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385241</id>
	<title>Re:The money goes quickly on these projects</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245345480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Fapp fapp fapp fapp fapp<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... a fapp fapp fapp fapp</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Fapp fapp fapp fapp fapp ... a fapp fapp fapp fapp</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fapp fapp fapp fapp fapp ... a fapp fapp fapp fapp</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383293</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383253</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>FooRat</author>
	<datestamp>1245330540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>the IT people at the University are probably barely getting a look in - it's being project-managed by external companies.  Come on, stop faffing about; seriously, this is just stupid.</p></div><p>Never attribute to incompetence what can be explained by corruption. This is not "stupid", it's corruption working exactly as it's intended to. What's perhaps stupid is those ultimately footing the bill being too naive to realise it, and not holding the corrupt to account.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>the IT people at the University are probably barely getting a look in - it 's being project-managed by external companies .
Come on , stop faffing about ; seriously , this is just stupid.Never attribute to incompetence what can be explained by corruption .
This is not " stupid " , it 's corruption working exactly as it 's intended to .
What 's perhaps stupid is those ultimately footing the bill being too naive to realise it , and not holding the corrupt to account .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the IT people at the University are probably barely getting a look in - it's being project-managed by external companies.
Come on, stop faffing about; seriously, this is just stupid.Never attribute to incompetence what can be explained by corruption.
This is not "stupid", it's corruption working exactly as it's intended to.
What's perhaps stupid is those ultimately footing the bill being too naive to realise it, and not holding the corrupt to account.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28388709</id>
	<title>Re:Some kids are profoundly ignorant.</title>
	<author>plague3106</author>
	<datestamp>1245421140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>The world will be a better place when kids stop belittling their elders for no factual reason.</i></p><p>You mean the elders that destoryed this country and left us without any real rights?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The world will be a better place when kids stop belittling their elders for no factual reason.You mean the elders that destoryed this country and left us without any real rights ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The world will be a better place when kids stop belittling their elders for no factual reason.You mean the elders that destoryed this country and left us without any real rights?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385077</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28390525</id>
	<title>Copy another school?</title>
	<author>highlander76</author>
	<datestamp>1245428700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Can't they just copy another school? This seems like a wheel that doesn't need ot be reinvented. They could just go ask the University of Minnesota<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... oh, wait, what was I thinking? Badgers can't go asking Gophers for help.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ca n't they just copy another school ?
This seems like a wheel that does n't need ot be reinvented .
They could just go ask the University of Minnesota ... oh , wait , what was I thinking ?
Badgers ca n't go asking Gophers for help .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can't they just copy another school?
This seems like a wheel that doesn't need ot be reinvented.
They could just go ask the University of Minnesota ... oh, wait, what was I thinking?
Badgers can't go asking Gophers for help.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28391179</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245431580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What garbage, every other University or College in the state would have the same payroll requirements. This should not be treated like it is a one-off system to send a manned mission to Mars.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What garbage , every other University or College in the state would have the same payroll requirements .
This should not be treated like it is a one-off system to send a manned mission to Mars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What garbage, every other University or College in the state would have the same payroll requirements.
This should not be treated like it is a one-off system to send a manned mission to Mars.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383331</id>
	<title>Re:Prospectus</title>
	<author>Alethes</author>
	<datestamp>1245330960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd simply mod you up if I could,  but I can't so, I'll comment instead.</p><p>Speaking from extensive experience in data integration and migration from legacy (no, I really mean ancient) systems, this really is just a simplified version of what really happens in successful projects of this scope.  Having also seen the nightmare scenario that UW is going through, I can guarantee that the failure lies in a lack of project management.  With a budget that large, it didn't even require <i>good</i> project management.  All they needed to do is actually have documented specs.  Something as simple as here's a list of everything our current system does that we need to keep, these are the additional features we want to add, and here's the process we have to use to ensure data integrity.   A Post-It Note even?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd simply mod you up if I could , but I ca n't so , I 'll comment instead.Speaking from extensive experience in data integration and migration from legacy ( no , I really mean ancient ) systems , this really is just a simplified version of what really happens in successful projects of this scope .
Having also seen the nightmare scenario that UW is going through , I can guarantee that the failure lies in a lack of project management .
With a budget that large , it did n't even require good project management .
All they needed to do is actually have documented specs .
Something as simple as here 's a list of everything our current system does that we need to keep , these are the additional features we want to add , and here 's the process we have to use to ensure data integrity .
A Post-It Note even ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd simply mod you up if I could,  but I can't so, I'll comment instead.Speaking from extensive experience in data integration and migration from legacy (no, I really mean ancient) systems, this really is just a simplified version of what really happens in successful projects of this scope.
Having also seen the nightmare scenario that UW is going through, I can guarantee that the failure lies in a lack of project management.
With a budget that large, it didn't even require good project management.
All they needed to do is actually have documented specs.
Something as simple as here's a list of everything our current system does that we need to keep, these are the additional features we want to add, and here's the process we have to use to ensure data integrity.
A Post-It Note even?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382865</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28388787</id>
	<title>Re:Managers often have profound ignorance.</title>
	<author>eth1</author>
	<datestamp>1245421500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or university management funnelling money to their consultant friends...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or university management funnelling money to their consultant friends.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or university management funnelling money to their consultant friends...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383129</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28393117</id>
	<title>Re:I bet a group of students can fix it in 4 Month</title>
	<author>johnny0099</author>
	<datestamp>1245439800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes, let's bet.  I'll even let you name the odds.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , let 's bet .
I 'll even let you name the odds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, let's bet.
I'll even let you name the odds.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28386149</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384689</id>
	<title>100\% spot on</title>
	<author>codepunk</author>
	<datestamp>1245339780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Who wants a job doing a payroll system using a third party tool set based on old languages and technology....doomed from the start.</p><p>I don't know about the rest of you guys but I have never looked at our payroll drone and wished I had his job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Who wants a job doing a payroll system using a third party tool set based on old languages and technology....doomed from the start.I do n't know about the rest of you guys but I have never looked at our payroll drone and wished I had his job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Who wants a job doing a payroll system using a third party tool set based on old languages and technology....doomed from the start.I don't know about the rest of you guys but I have never looked at our payroll drone and wished I had his job.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383009</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28386453</id>
	<title>Re:Here's the real story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245443580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When you see something like that<br>ADD YEARS TO AGE</p><p>(translation :  age = age + years )<br>May be prof.dr.Edsger W.Dijkstra was right :</p><p>"The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."<br>http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD04xx/EWD498.html</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When you see something like thatADD YEARS TO AGE ( translation : age = age + years ) May be prof.dr.Edsger W.Dijkstra was right : " The use of COBOL cripples the mind ; its teaching should , therefore , be regarded as a criminal offense .
" http : //www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD04xx/EWD498.html</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When you see something like thatADD YEARS TO AGE(translation :  age = age + years )May be prof.dr.Edsger W.Dijkstra was right :"The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense.
"http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD04xx/EWD498.html</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383469</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28390541</id>
	<title>WT?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245428760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is outrageous.</p><p>You mean to tell me it is impossible to break the project down into finite cost controlled pieces?</p><p>One thought comes to mind is paying poor and hungry graduate students $20 bucks an hour to do all the heavy lifting for the project, while asking the UW-Madison PhD students to project manage the pieces and parts.</p><p>All part time.  Seems like a win win scenario to me.</p><p>Students get work to help pay for school, Grad students get work experience for resume's and PhD students get to contribute to a place they love.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p><p>But, apparently giving a bunch of dumb arse's who are a KNOWN Tax Cheat, changed their name because they USE to be known as the company that stole Little Old Ladies Pensions at Enron (Arthur Andersen), millions is a better idea.</p><p>(i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accenture )</p><p>I like how the Wiki says they did not change their name because of all of the corruption....LOL...of course not, it is actually a little known market fact to keep bad brand names as your company name because it increases business.</p><p>LOL</p><p>They really need to do something about the Wiki security on the internet because companies now have thier own disinformation departments that are of this size.</p><p>Whatever.</p><p>-Hack</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is outrageous.You mean to tell me it is impossible to break the project down into finite cost controlled pieces ? One thought comes to mind is paying poor and hungry graduate students $ 20 bucks an hour to do all the heavy lifting for the project , while asking the UW-Madison PhD students to project manage the pieces and parts.All part time .
Seems like a win win scenario to me.Students get work to help pay for school , Grad students get work experience for resume 's and PhD students get to contribute to a place they love .
: - ) But , apparently giving a bunch of dumb arse 's who are a KNOWN Tax Cheat , changed their name because they USE to be known as the company that stole Little Old Ladies Pensions at Enron ( Arthur Andersen ) , millions is a better idea. ( i.e .
http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accenture ) I like how the Wiki says they did not change their name because of all of the corruption....LOL...of course not , it is actually a little known market fact to keep bad brand names as your company name because it increases business.LOLThey really need to do something about the Wiki security on the internet because companies now have thier own disinformation departments that are of this size.Whatever.-Hack</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is outrageous.You mean to tell me it is impossible to break the project down into finite cost controlled pieces?One thought comes to mind is paying poor and hungry graduate students $20 bucks an hour to do all the heavy lifting for the project, while asking the UW-Madison PhD students to project manage the pieces and parts.All part time.
Seems like a win win scenario to me.Students get work to help pay for school, Grad students get work experience for resume's and PhD students get to contribute to a place they love.
:-)But, apparently giving a bunch of dumb arse's who are a KNOWN Tax Cheat, changed their name because they USE to be known as the company that stole Little Old Ladies Pensions at Enron (Arthur Andersen), millions is a better idea.(i.e.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accenture )I like how the Wiki says they did not change their name because of all of the corruption....LOL...of course not, it is actually a little known market fact to keep bad brand names as your company name because it increases business.LOLThey really need to do something about the Wiki security on the internet because companies now have thier own disinformation departments that are of this size.Whatever.-Hack</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384309</id>
	<title>Do7l</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245336780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>~280MB MPEG hoff of areX about 7000/5 Distro is done Here</htmltext>
<tokenext>~ 280MB MPEG hoff of areX about 7000/5 Distro is done Here</tokentext>
<sentencetext>~280MB MPEG hoff of areX about 7000/5 Distro is done Here</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28389097</id>
	<title>Payroll Systems are easy</title>
	<author>MooseDontBounce</author>
	<datestamp>1245422880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I really can't believe this story.

I wrote a integrated Payroll/HR application in 2 years (plus received a US patent for part of it) myself for a major steel corporation in the early 1990's using Clipper!  It did all timecard entry, had user-defined union rules, and tax rules.  It did taxes for US &amp; Canada plus 21 states.  All user defined and maintainable.  Printed laser MICR-checks, W2's, direct deposit, retirement and pension calcs, etc. etc. etc.  It was used for 15 years until the company was bought out.

How fraking stupid are these people?

As a side note.  You have NEVER felt pressure as when 2000+ United Steel Worker checks are wrong and you don't know why!  (It was (L)user error)</htmltext>
<tokenext>I really ca n't believe this story .
I wrote a integrated Payroll/HR application in 2 years ( plus received a US patent for part of it ) myself for a major steel corporation in the early 1990 's using Clipper !
It did all timecard entry , had user-defined union rules , and tax rules .
It did taxes for US &amp; Canada plus 21 states .
All user defined and maintainable .
Printed laser MICR-checks , W2 's , direct deposit , retirement and pension calcs , etc .
etc. etc .
It was used for 15 years until the company was bought out .
How fraking stupid are these people ?
As a side note .
You have NEVER felt pressure as when 2000 + United Steel Worker checks are wrong and you do n't know why !
( It was ( L ) user error )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I really can't believe this story.
I wrote a integrated Payroll/HR application in 2 years (plus received a US patent for part of it) myself for a major steel corporation in the early 1990's using Clipper!
It did all timecard entry, had user-defined union rules, and tax rules.
It did taxes for US &amp; Canada plus 21 states.
All user defined and maintainable.
Printed laser MICR-checks, W2's, direct deposit, retirement and pension calcs, etc.
etc. etc.
It was used for 15 years until the company was bought out.
How fraking stupid are these people?
As a side note.
You have NEVER felt pressure as when 2000+ United Steel Worker checks are wrong and you don't know why!
(It was (L)user error)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383225</id>
	<title>Corruption</title>
	<author>FooRat</author>
	<datestamp>1245330420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sorry, but I have a pretty good idea what corruption looks like, and this stinks to high hell of corruption, the odds are about zero that it's anything else. Computers and how 'complex' they are great premises for corrupt bureaucrats to launch 'projects' that become huge money holes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry , but I have a pretty good idea what corruption looks like , and this stinks to high hell of corruption , the odds are about zero that it 's anything else .
Computers and how 'complex ' they are great premises for corrupt bureaucrats to launch 'projects ' that become huge money holes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry, but I have a pretty good idea what corruption looks like, and this stinks to high hell of corruption, the odds are about zero that it's anything else.
Computers and how 'complex' they are great premises for corrupt bureaucrats to launch 'projects' that become huge money holes.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28391127</id>
	<title>Ohio State went through this in the late 90's</title>
	<author>JimBobJoe</author>
	<datestamp>1245431400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ohio State was one of the first (if not the first) universities to transition to Peoplesoft. Originally budgeted at $10-12 million the project ended up costing $100-$120 million.</p><p>I'm not sure how projects today are done, but Peoplesoft was running on NT 3.51 servers and people accessed the program by opening up a Citrix Winframe session.</p><p>At that time, Peoplesoft had never really done a university project before, and found that the corporate payroll package that it had was entirely inadequate for the university setting. (Supposedly they now have a college/university payroll package.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ohio State was one of the first ( if not the first ) universities to transition to Peoplesoft .
Originally budgeted at $ 10-12 million the project ended up costing $ 100- $ 120 million.I 'm not sure how projects today are done , but Peoplesoft was running on NT 3.51 servers and people accessed the program by opening up a Citrix Winframe session.At that time , Peoplesoft had never really done a university project before , and found that the corporate payroll package that it had was entirely inadequate for the university setting .
( Supposedly they now have a college/university payroll package .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ohio State was one of the first (if not the first) universities to transition to Peoplesoft.
Originally budgeted at $10-12 million the project ended up costing $100-$120 million.I'm not sure how projects today are done, but Peoplesoft was running on NT 3.51 servers and people accessed the program by opening up a Citrix Winframe session.At that time, Peoplesoft had never really done a university project before, and found that the corporate payroll package that it had was entirely inadequate for the university setting.
(Supposedly they now have a college/university payroll package.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385385</id>
	<title>Re:Here's the real story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245347220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Except I know the folks who maintain the current system.  They are competent, not ready for retirement and they get the job done admirably.  Meanwhile UW-Madison is raising tuition on Ugrads and extra 1K a year beyond normal tuition increases.  But they have money to replace a system that works!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Except I know the folks who maintain the current system .
They are competent , not ready for retirement and they get the job done admirably .
Meanwhile UW-Madison is raising tuition on Ugrads and extra 1K a year beyond normal tuition increases .
But they have money to replace a system that works !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Except I know the folks who maintain the current system.
They are competent, not ready for retirement and they get the job done admirably.
Meanwhile UW-Madison is raising tuition on Ugrads and extra 1K a year beyond normal tuition increases.
But they have money to replace a system that works!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383469</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383407</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>dbcad7</author>
	<datestamp>1245331380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are companies.. such as PayChex, with multiple branches in many cities.. and there are other companies just like them<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. and they all handle multiple businesses at each branch that have all different types of pay and tax schemes,, and I guarantee not one of these places uses software that cost even as much as a half a million, let alone 40 million<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. in fact, why not just use one of these companies ?</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are companies.. such as PayChex , with multiple branches in many cities.. and there are other companies just like them .. and they all handle multiple businesses at each branch that have all different types of pay and tax schemes, , and I guarantee not one of these places uses software that cost even as much as a half a million , let alone 40 million .. in fact , why not just use one of these companies ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are companies.. such as PayChex, with multiple branches in many cities.. and there are other companies just like them .. and they all handle multiple businesses at each branch that have all different types of pay and tax schemes,, and I guarantee not one of these places uses software that cost even as much as a half a million, let alone 40 million .. in fact, why not just use one of these companies ?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28386941</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245406440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>[...] you're not telling me that MILLIONS of dollars and YEARS of work by supposedly professional IT companies isn't enough to get ANYTHING working well enough to say "We don't need to worry about that part any more".  </p></div><p>Any project over 6 months runs an exponential risk of failure. There is also a critical limit based on budget. So basically, millions of dollars and years of work virtually GUARANTEE a failure.

What they could have done was:
</p><ul>
<li>reorganize the departments for a simpler payroll process</li>
<li>remove the superfluous complexity from the old system</li>
<li>replace parts of the system with new systems that provide complete but well-delimited services</li>
<li>replace the services with improved versions at will, preferably in a more modern environment that supports a service oriented architecture and enterprise service bus.</li>
</ul><p>

Or if you want an off-the-shelf solution:
</p><ul>
<li>reorganize the departments for a simpler payroll process, preferably you use the standard process in a vendor-supplied standard payrolling system like Peoplesoft</li>
<li>implement the standard software with standard process</li>
</ul><p>

In both cases the correct step would be to start with the organization first. If you have thousands of exceptions to arcane rules so much that you need humans to understand it, you will need a fully sentient AI to implement this system. That's a so-called 'Hard' IT-problem. If you reorganize first to be able to do 80\% of all tasks just by following a set of rules, you can automate that part and have humans deal with the other 20\%. A good workflow solution capable of integrating human actions would also help a lot with that.

However, it seems they missed the first step and ended up in standard failmode.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>[ ... ] you 're not telling me that MILLIONS of dollars and YEARS of work by supposedly professional IT companies is n't enough to get ANYTHING working well enough to say " We do n't need to worry about that part any more " .
Any project over 6 months runs an exponential risk of failure .
There is also a critical limit based on budget .
So basically , millions of dollars and years of work virtually GUARANTEE a failure .
What they could have done was : reorganize the departments for a simpler payroll process remove the superfluous complexity from the old system replace parts of the system with new systems that provide complete but well-delimited services replace the services with improved versions at will , preferably in a more modern environment that supports a service oriented architecture and enterprise service bus .
Or if you want an off-the-shelf solution : reorganize the departments for a simpler payroll process , preferably you use the standard process in a vendor-supplied standard payrolling system like Peoplesoft implement the standard software with standard process In both cases the correct step would be to start with the organization first .
If you have thousands of exceptions to arcane rules so much that you need humans to understand it , you will need a fully sentient AI to implement this system .
That 's a so-called 'Hard ' IT-problem .
If you reorganize first to be able to do 80 \ % of all tasks just by following a set of rules , you can automate that part and have humans deal with the other 20 \ % .
A good workflow solution capable of integrating human actions would also help a lot with that .
However , it seems they missed the first step and ended up in standard failmode .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>[...] you're not telling me that MILLIONS of dollars and YEARS of work by supposedly professional IT companies isn't enough to get ANYTHING working well enough to say "We don't need to worry about that part any more".
Any project over 6 months runs an exponential risk of failure.
There is also a critical limit based on budget.
So basically, millions of dollars and years of work virtually GUARANTEE a failure.
What they could have done was:

reorganize the departments for a simpler payroll process
remove the superfluous complexity from the old system
replace parts of the system with new systems that provide complete but well-delimited services
replace the services with improved versions at will, preferably in a more modern environment that supports a service oriented architecture and enterprise service bus.
Or if you want an off-the-shelf solution:

reorganize the departments for a simpler payroll process, preferably you use the standard process in a vendor-supplied standard payrolling system like Peoplesoft
implement the standard software with standard process


In both cases the correct step would be to start with the organization first.
If you have thousands of exceptions to arcane rules so much that you need humans to understand it, you will need a fully sentient AI to implement this system.
That's a so-called 'Hard' IT-problem.
If you reorganize first to be able to do 80\% of all tasks just by following a set of rules, you can automate that part and have humans deal with the other 20\%.
A good workflow solution capable of integrating human actions would also help a lot with that.
However, it seems they missed the first step and ended up in standard failmode.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382741</id>
	<title>As a UW Student...</title>
	<author>cheezitman2001</author>
	<datestamp>1245328740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I just want to say how glad I am my tuition's going to a good cause.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I just want to say how glad I am my tuition 's going to a good cause .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just want to say how glad I am my tuition's going to a good cause.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28391839</id>
	<title>Re:Some kids are profoundly ignorant.</title>
	<author>tyen</author>
	<datestamp>1245434340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>Payrolls are hardly technically challenging. By way of perspective, 30 years ago I...</i> </p><p>Perhaps you haven't been in the business since then? Payroll systems today for large organizations are very complex because they often have to deal with tax jurisdictions around the world, and tax regulations have become quite a lot more complex since you worked at that computer bureau. In the university's case, simply accommodating visiting faculty can be a challenge. Then there is all the change control that surrounds tracking ever-changing tax laws. We haven't even begun to discuss benefits calculations, which are always related to payroll systems as many benefits impact what is deducted from a paycheck.

The only payroll processes that are simple these days are the ones for very small businesses with a single locale and static benefits package, like your basic mom and pop restaurant down the street at the corner. Pretty much everyone else has multiple tax jurisdictions to deal with, especially with globalization pressures compelling many companies to do business around the world to survive.</p><p>This is why payroll processing companies like ADP are so popular with businesses; doing even multi-state payroll in-house is not easy by any stretch of the imagination. Pro tip: choose your payroll processor carefully, as they can skip with your tax deposits, and as long as the amount is below the FBI threshhold for caring about white collar crime, they can disappear with your funds with no repercussions. And the tax agencies don't care some scumbag just stole your tax deposits. That industry is completely unregulated, and is a scammer's wet dream come true as it is the perfect crime; businesses scammed like this are so panicked dealing with the now-pissed tax agencies they rarely have time/manpower/willpower to pursue the payroll processor. Now imagine what happens when the payroll processing takes place outside the country; good luck pursuing them in court overseas.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Payrolls are hardly technically challenging .
By way of perspective , 30 years ago I... Perhaps you have n't been in the business since then ?
Payroll systems today for large organizations are very complex because they often have to deal with tax jurisdictions around the world , and tax regulations have become quite a lot more complex since you worked at that computer bureau .
In the university 's case , simply accommodating visiting faculty can be a challenge .
Then there is all the change control that surrounds tracking ever-changing tax laws .
We have n't even begun to discuss benefits calculations , which are always related to payroll systems as many benefits impact what is deducted from a paycheck .
The only payroll processes that are simple these days are the ones for very small businesses with a single locale and static benefits package , like your basic mom and pop restaurant down the street at the corner .
Pretty much everyone else has multiple tax jurisdictions to deal with , especially with globalization pressures compelling many companies to do business around the world to survive.This is why payroll processing companies like ADP are so popular with businesses ; doing even multi-state payroll in-house is not easy by any stretch of the imagination .
Pro tip : choose your payroll processor carefully , as they can skip with your tax deposits , and as long as the amount is below the FBI threshhold for caring about white collar crime , they can disappear with your funds with no repercussions .
And the tax agencies do n't care some scumbag just stole your tax deposits .
That industry is completely unregulated , and is a scammer 's wet dream come true as it is the perfect crime ; businesses scammed like this are so panicked dealing with the now-pissed tax agencies they rarely have time/manpower/willpower to pursue the payroll processor .
Now imagine what happens when the payroll processing takes place outside the country ; good luck pursuing them in court overseas .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Payrolls are hardly technically challenging.
By way of perspective, 30 years ago I... Perhaps you haven't been in the business since then?
Payroll systems today for large organizations are very complex because they often have to deal with tax jurisdictions around the world, and tax regulations have become quite a lot more complex since you worked at that computer bureau.
In the university's case, simply accommodating visiting faculty can be a challenge.
Then there is all the change control that surrounds tracking ever-changing tax laws.
We haven't even begun to discuss benefits calculations, which are always related to payroll systems as many benefits impact what is deducted from a paycheck.
The only payroll processes that are simple these days are the ones for very small businesses with a single locale and static benefits package, like your basic mom and pop restaurant down the street at the corner.
Pretty much everyone else has multiple tax jurisdictions to deal with, especially with globalization pressures compelling many companies to do business around the world to survive.This is why payroll processing companies like ADP are so popular with businesses; doing even multi-state payroll in-house is not easy by any stretch of the imagination.
Pro tip: choose your payroll processor carefully, as they can skip with your tax deposits, and as long as the amount is below the FBI threshhold for caring about white collar crime, they can disappear with your funds with no repercussions.
And the tax agencies don't care some scumbag just stole your tax deposits.
That industry is completely unregulated, and is a scammer's wet dream come true as it is the perfect crime; businesses scammed like this are so panicked dealing with the now-pissed tax agencies they rarely have time/manpower/willpower to pursue the payroll processor.
Now imagine what happens when the payroll processing takes place outside the country; good luck pursuing them in court overseas.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385077</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385155</id>
	<title>Send it to india</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245344400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For that kind of money, you can hand convert the entire thing with an army of data input people in India. Hell there are entire companies dedicated to just that sort of thing that likly do not clear $40 million in a year. This is all assuming the original system was so buggered that there is no way to automate any of it, which is highly unlikely.</p><p>Take a small percentage of the budget, and have a hit put out on the project manager. Problem solved.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For that kind of money , you can hand convert the entire thing with an army of data input people in India .
Hell there are entire companies dedicated to just that sort of thing that likly do not clear $ 40 million in a year .
This is all assuming the original system was so buggered that there is no way to automate any of it , which is highly unlikely.Take a small percentage of the budget , and have a hit put out on the project manager .
Problem solved .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For that kind of money, you can hand convert the entire thing with an army of data input people in India.
Hell there are entire companies dedicated to just that sort of thing that likly do not clear $40 million in a year.
This is all assuming the original system was so buggered that there is no way to automate any of it, which is highly unlikely.Take a small percentage of the budget, and have a hit put out on the project manager.
Problem solved.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384637</id>
	<title>Seriously, outsource it.. its what the big guys do</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245339360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or for 25 Cents a transaction/employee you can have one of the many outsource companies do it for you including handling all of your direct deposits, deductions, direct payments, and everything else you can think of.  The people in charge of this project should be fired for negligence.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or for 25 Cents a transaction/employee you can have one of the many outsource companies do it for you including handling all of your direct deposits , deductions , direct payments , and everything else you can think of .
The people in charge of this project should be fired for negligence .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or for 25 Cents a transaction/employee you can have one of the many outsource companies do it for you including handling all of your direct deposits, deductions, direct payments, and everything else you can think of.
The people in charge of this project should be fired for negligence.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382969</id>
	<title>Payroll???</title>
	<author>BillandTed</author>
	<datestamp>1245329580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Can anyone say ADP?

Outsource this and pocket 2 mil for new hardware - they'll call you a god and you can then update seriously outdated hardware needed to run such outdated software... Just a thought</htmltext>
<tokenext>Can anyone say ADP ?
Outsource this and pocket 2 mil for new hardware - they 'll call you a god and you can then update seriously outdated hardware needed to run such outdated software... Just a thought</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can anyone say ADP?
Outsource this and pocket 2 mil for new hardware - they'll call you a god and you can then update seriously outdated hardware needed to run such outdated software... Just a thought</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384093</id>
	<title>Ohio State University just spent $50M - it's still</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245335400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>OSU just spent $50 million ($1000 per student) on a new student information system...and it's still broken. Classes start Monday, and most people don't have their financial aid yet.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>OSU just spent $ 50 million ( $ 1000 per student ) on a new student information system...and it 's still broken .
Classes start Monday , and most people do n't have their financial aid yet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>OSU just spent $50 million ($1000 per student) on a new student information system...and it's still broken.
Classes start Monday, and most people don't have their financial aid yet.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383685</id>
	<title>Re:Prospectus</title>
	<author>ctmurray</author>
	<datestamp>1245332940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This whole thread is a deja-vu moment for my wife, a COBOL programmer. She went through being ripped off by Arthur Anderson (Accenture now) for the HR system at her company. They had to also go through more than one COTS + consultancy to finally end up on Peoplesoft. So these are her comments:<br> <br>

1. Find out what other Big Ten universities have implemented, pick the best and use that one.<br> <br>
2. Run away from Accenture. If they rip off everyone they work with, who do they use for references for the next job?<br> <br>

She is looking for a job, where are all the job postings for COBOL programmers? Seriously, there do not see to be any jobs.  I think the consultants have feed the clients a line about there not being any programmers for the legacy system (to scare them into the new solutions). So everyone thinks these people don't exist, so no one posts for the jobs. She is only 50, plenty of years to work fixing these systems.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This whole thread is a deja-vu moment for my wife , a COBOL programmer .
She went through being ripped off by Arthur Anderson ( Accenture now ) for the HR system at her company .
They had to also go through more than one COTS + consultancy to finally end up on Peoplesoft .
So these are her comments : 1 .
Find out what other Big Ten universities have implemented , pick the best and use that one .
2. Run away from Accenture .
If they rip off everyone they work with , who do they use for references for the next job ?
She is looking for a job , where are all the job postings for COBOL programmers ?
Seriously , there do not see to be any jobs .
I think the consultants have feed the clients a line about there not being any programmers for the legacy system ( to scare them into the new solutions ) .
So everyone thinks these people do n't exist , so no one posts for the jobs .
She is only 50 , plenty of years to work fixing these systems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This whole thread is a deja-vu moment for my wife, a COBOL programmer.
She went through being ripped off by Arthur Anderson (Accenture now) for the HR system at her company.
They had to also go through more than one COTS + consultancy to finally end up on Peoplesoft.
So these are her comments: 

1.
Find out what other Big Ten universities have implemented, pick the best and use that one.
2. Run away from Accenture.
If they rip off everyone they work with, who do they use for references for the next job?
She is looking for a job, where are all the job postings for COBOL programmers?
Seriously, there do not see to be any jobs.
I think the consultants have feed the clients a line about there not being any programmers for the legacy system (to scare them into the new solutions).
So everyone thinks these people don't exist, so no one posts for the jobs.
She is only 50, plenty of years to work fixing these systems.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383145</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28386241</id>
	<title>Re:Prospectus</title>
	<author>wvmarle</author>
	<datestamp>1245441720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Phase 1
</p><p>
Extraction of business rules from legacy (probably COBAL) system.

Farm it out to other universities or India.
(Cost: maybe $1 million)
Basic requirements and documentation finalized
</p></div><p>This should not be filtered from the code - it probably can not be filtered from the code. </p><p>These requirements will have to be provided by the various institutions and workgroups and contractors and tax specialists. But getting those requirements is probably a dog in itself: many high-level employees will have personalised contracts with personalised payment scales and benefits, for each of them the rules will have to be filtered from the contract. This is not going to be easy. And it is going to be really hard to convince those workgroups to go through years-old contracts and updates for replacing a payroll that (presumably, and certainly from their pov), "just works". This is the really hard part. The next step is easy. Implementing rules is easy. A lot of work probably, but no more than that. </p><p>But making the system maintainable later - that is another matter. How are you going to implement rule changes? Tax rule changes? New contracts? The worst you can tell an applicant that "this salary related request you have we can not allow you because our payroll can't handle it". It is going to have to be mighty flexible. And with that mighty complex.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Phase 1 Extraction of business rules from legacy ( probably COBAL ) system .
Farm it out to other universities or India .
( Cost : maybe $ 1 million ) Basic requirements and documentation finalized This should not be filtered from the code - it probably can not be filtered from the code .
These requirements will have to be provided by the various institutions and workgroups and contractors and tax specialists .
But getting those requirements is probably a dog in itself : many high-level employees will have personalised contracts with personalised payment scales and benefits , for each of them the rules will have to be filtered from the contract .
This is not going to be easy .
And it is going to be really hard to convince those workgroups to go through years-old contracts and updates for replacing a payroll that ( presumably , and certainly from their pov ) , " just works " .
This is the really hard part .
The next step is easy .
Implementing rules is easy .
A lot of work probably , but no more than that .
But making the system maintainable later - that is another matter .
How are you going to implement rule changes ?
Tax rule changes ?
New contracts ?
The worst you can tell an applicant that " this salary related request you have we can not allow you because our payroll ca n't handle it " .
It is going to have to be mighty flexible .
And with that mighty complex .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Phase 1

Extraction of business rules from legacy (probably COBAL) system.
Farm it out to other universities or India.
(Cost: maybe $1 million)
Basic requirements and documentation finalized
This should not be filtered from the code - it probably can not be filtered from the code.
These requirements will have to be provided by the various institutions and workgroups and contractors and tax specialists.
But getting those requirements is probably a dog in itself: many high-level employees will have personalised contracts with personalised payment scales and benefits, for each of them the rules will have to be filtered from the contract.
This is not going to be easy.
And it is going to be really hard to convince those workgroups to go through years-old contracts and updates for replacing a payroll that (presumably, and certainly from their pov), "just works".
This is the really hard part.
The next step is easy.
Implementing rules is easy.
A lot of work probably, but no more than that.
But making the system maintainable later - that is another matter.
How are you going to implement rule changes?
Tax rule changes?
New contracts?
The worst you can tell an applicant that "this salary related request you have we can not allow you because our payroll can't handle it".
It is going to have to be mighty flexible.
And with that mighty complex.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382865</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383879</id>
	<title>Idiots: outsource to Paychex, ADP, etc...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245334080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>SLA payroll services to professionals.  You don't need a PhD to figure out the maths.</p><p>Go figure...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>SLA payroll services to professionals .
You do n't need a PhD to figure out the maths.Go figure.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>SLA payroll services to professionals.
You don't need a PhD to figure out the maths.Go figure...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28392997</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245439380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As someone who works in a large university IT department this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You most certainly do NOT want your existing IT staff handling this all on their own. Do you want them involved? Absolutely. Should they doing all of this, with student labor? Hell no. The IT staff is already in place doing the business of running IT day to day and trying to meet organizational planning needs for the future. This type of massive long term project, where you're ripping out an established system that's heavily integrated into the organizational infrastructure and replacing it, requires outside help. Placing the burden of replacing that system on the same people maintaining that system is a really, really bad idea. You will need to hire a bunch of help or contract out large portions of the project to avoid overburdening your existing IT staff.</p><p>And don't get me started on how bad of an idea it is to use student labor to do the work. Students, generally speaking, have no practical experience in implementing large scale projects, may or may not know the language/environment, have probably never written documentation/code specs/comments, probably have never done QA or testing, and will only be around a few years to help maintain the system. You'd have to train these guys as you're expecting them to produce good, reusable code in a language they've probably never used. Not to mention the outside time burden a student has with classes, homework, drunken parties, etc. Even grad students would be bad for this as they may or may not have real world exp not to mention their own time burdens outside work. Don't get me wrong, throwing a small project to a student every now and then is a great idea for both the uni and the student but trying to use student labor to replace a mission critical system is really stupid.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone who works in a large university IT department this is the stupidest thing I 've ever heard .
You most certainly do NOT want your existing IT staff handling this all on their own .
Do you want them involved ?
Absolutely. Should they doing all of this , with student labor ?
Hell no .
The IT staff is already in place doing the business of running IT day to day and trying to meet organizational planning needs for the future .
This type of massive long term project , where you 're ripping out an established system that 's heavily integrated into the organizational infrastructure and replacing it , requires outside help .
Placing the burden of replacing that system on the same people maintaining that system is a really , really bad idea .
You will need to hire a bunch of help or contract out large portions of the project to avoid overburdening your existing IT staff.And do n't get me started on how bad of an idea it is to use student labor to do the work .
Students , generally speaking , have no practical experience in implementing large scale projects , may or may not know the language/environment , have probably never written documentation/code specs/comments , probably have never done QA or testing , and will only be around a few years to help maintain the system .
You 'd have to train these guys as you 're expecting them to produce good , reusable code in a language they 've probably never used .
Not to mention the outside time burden a student has with classes , homework , drunken parties , etc .
Even grad students would be bad for this as they may or may not have real world exp not to mention their own time burdens outside work .
Do n't get me wrong , throwing a small project to a student every now and then is a great idea for both the uni and the student but trying to use student labor to replace a mission critical system is really stupid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone who works in a large university IT department this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
You most certainly do NOT want your existing IT staff handling this all on their own.
Do you want them involved?
Absolutely. Should they doing all of this, with student labor?
Hell no.
The IT staff is already in place doing the business of running IT day to day and trying to meet organizational planning needs for the future.
This type of massive long term project, where you're ripping out an established system that's heavily integrated into the organizational infrastructure and replacing it, requires outside help.
Placing the burden of replacing that system on the same people maintaining that system is a really, really bad idea.
You will need to hire a bunch of help or contract out large portions of the project to avoid overburdening your existing IT staff.And don't get me started on how bad of an idea it is to use student labor to do the work.
Students, generally speaking, have no practical experience in implementing large scale projects, may or may not know the language/environment, have probably never written documentation/code specs/comments, probably have never done QA or testing, and will only be around a few years to help maintain the system.
You'd have to train these guys as you're expecting them to produce good, reusable code in a language they've probably never used.
Not to mention the outside time burden a student has with classes, homework, drunken parties, etc.
Even grad students would be bad for this as they may or may not have real world exp not to mention their own time burdens outside work.
Don't get me wrong, throwing a small project to a student every now and then is a great idea for both the uni and the student but trying to use student labor to replace a mission critical system is really stupid.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382817</id>
	<title>Re:Bad Title</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245329040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As I understand it, they've totally scrapped the old system and are starting over from scratch using PeopleSoft - which they should have done from the beginning rather than trying to roll their own solution.</p><p>So yeah the title is misleading; it's a $12 million system.  And that includes deployment across 24 campuses statewide,  training costs, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As I understand it , they 've totally scrapped the old system and are starting over from scratch using PeopleSoft - which they should have done from the beginning rather than trying to roll their own solution.So yeah the title is misleading ; it 's a $ 12 million system .
And that includes deployment across 24 campuses statewide , training costs , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As I understand it, they've totally scrapped the old system and are starting over from scratch using PeopleSoft - which they should have done from the beginning rather than trying to roll their own solution.So yeah the title is misleading; it's a $12 million system.
And that includes deployment across 24 campuses statewide,  training costs, etc.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382745</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384057</id>
	<title>Re:OK?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245335160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>yeah, then they'd be paying big bucks when support is dropped for that shitware.<br> <br>go commercial and others will conform to whatever standards are popular. that's the bottom line. open source assfags act like it doesn't happen but it does happen like that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>yeah , then they 'd be paying big bucks when support is dropped for that shitware .
go commercial and others will conform to whatever standards are popular .
that 's the bottom line .
open source assfags act like it does n't happen but it does happen like that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>yeah, then they'd be paying big bucks when support is dropped for that shitware.
go commercial and others will conform to whatever standards are popular.
that's the bottom line.
open source assfags act like it doesn't happen but it does happen like that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383021</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382621</id>
	<title>Peppy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245328200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Peppy: Do a 30-Year-Old Payroll!
spend $40 Million twice</htmltext>
<tokenext>Peppy : Do a 30-Year-Old Payroll !
spend $ 40 Million twice</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Peppy: Do a 30-Year-Old Payroll!
spend $40 Million twice</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383115</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245330060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your opinion implies you think know what you are talking about, but you do not. Fucking stupid slashdot assholes have worthless opinions about anything.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your opinion implies you think know what you are talking about , but you do not .
Fucking stupid slashdot assholes have worthless opinions about anything .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your opinion implies you think know what you are talking about, but you do not.
Fucking stupid slashdot assholes have worthless opinions about anything.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384493</id>
	<title>#1 Problem: Pigeon Management</title>
	<author>binaryspiral</author>
	<datestamp>1245338340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've worked with folks involved with this decade long money pit - the problem can be directly blamed on management. Or, more specifically, the ever changing management.</p><p>From what I understand, the project is worked on for a few years and when there isn't a magical new system online, management is re-org'ed or replaced. This is essentially pigeon management - they fly in, crap on everything, and fly out.</p><p>Typically they scrap the old system during this change because the new management comes in with new ideas, programming methods, and vendors... the cycle of re-work, re-engineering, and re-lying on the old system continues while raking in big bucks for consultants and contractors... many I would expect are heavy gifting to the UW Alum and/or Wisconsin government lobby.</p><p>Fuck em all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've worked with folks involved with this decade long money pit - the problem can be directly blamed on management .
Or , more specifically , the ever changing management.From what I understand , the project is worked on for a few years and when there is n't a magical new system online , management is re-org'ed or replaced .
This is essentially pigeon management - they fly in , crap on everything , and fly out.Typically they scrap the old system during this change because the new management comes in with new ideas , programming methods , and vendors... the cycle of re-work , re-engineering , and re-lying on the old system continues while raking in big bucks for consultants and contractors... many I would expect are heavy gifting to the UW Alum and/or Wisconsin government lobby.Fuck em all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've worked with folks involved with this decade long money pit - the problem can be directly blamed on management.
Or, more specifically, the ever changing management.From what I understand, the project is worked on for a few years and when there isn't a magical new system online, management is re-org'ed or replaced.
This is essentially pigeon management - they fly in, crap on everything, and fly out.Typically they scrap the old system during this change because the new management comes in with new ideas, programming methods, and vendors... the cycle of re-work, re-engineering, and re-lying on the old system continues while raking in big bucks for consultants and contractors... many I would expect are heavy gifting to the UW Alum and/or Wisconsin government lobby.Fuck em all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383889</id>
	<title>Re:Bad Title</title>
	<author>carlzum</author>
	<datestamp>1245334080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yep, this was a $40 million leadership failure. They're trying to blame the IT bogeyman, but according to the article a lack of planning and poor leadership was the problem. The fact that it was a software project is irrelevant, they would have been just as inept if they tried to build a bridge or organize a large event.<blockquote><div><p>The project, a public relations embarrassment for the university, was doomed by poor project leadership and planning, bureaucratic infighting and technical complexity... Giroux said earlier planning budget estimates and timelines had to be changed because "we did not have the full picture of how complex this project would be." He noted a state audit in 2007 of troubled information technology projects identified inadequate planning as the source of most problems.</p></div>
</blockquote></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yep , this was a $ 40 million leadership failure .
They 're trying to blame the IT bogeyman , but according to the article a lack of planning and poor leadership was the problem .
The fact that it was a software project is irrelevant , they would have been just as inept if they tried to build a bridge or organize a large event.The project , a public relations embarrassment for the university , was doomed by poor project leadership and planning , bureaucratic infighting and technical complexity... Giroux said earlier planning budget estimates and timelines had to be changed because " we did not have the full picture of how complex this project would be .
" He noted a state audit in 2007 of troubled information technology projects identified inadequate planning as the source of most problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yep, this was a $40 million leadership failure.
They're trying to blame the IT bogeyman, but according to the article a lack of planning and poor leadership was the problem.
The fact that it was a software project is irrelevant, they would have been just as inept if they tried to build a bridge or organize a large event.The project, a public relations embarrassment for the university, was doomed by poor project leadership and planning, bureaucratic infighting and technical complexity... Giroux said earlier planning budget estimates and timelines had to be changed because "we did not have the full picture of how complex this project would be.
" He noted a state audit in 2007 of troubled information technology projects identified inadequate planning as the source of most problems.

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382745</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28386099</id>
	<title>Re:The money goes quickly on these projects</title>
	<author>atamido</author>
	<datestamp>1245354000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Some vendors charge by the seat -- how many users do you think a payroll system for 60,000 employees has? That's right, a lot.</p></div><p>This is something I've never understood.  In my limited experience, good software never has the client access the database directly.  It will request information from a server, which queries the database, and returns the necessary data to the client.  This vastly simplifies many aspects of security and reduces the "client access licenses" to just the ones used by the server.</p><p>Am I missing something here?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Some vendors charge by the seat -- how many users do you think a payroll system for 60,000 employees has ?
That 's right , a lot.This is something I 've never understood .
In my limited experience , good software never has the client access the database directly .
It will request information from a server , which queries the database , and returns the necessary data to the client .
This vastly simplifies many aspects of security and reduces the " client access licenses " to just the ones used by the server.Am I missing something here ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some vendors charge by the seat -- how many users do you think a payroll system for 60,000 employees has?
That's right, a lot.This is something I've never understood.
In my limited experience, good software never has the client access the database directly.
It will request information from a server, which queries the database, and returns the necessary data to the client.
This vastly simplifies many aspects of security and reduces the "client access licenses" to just the ones used by the server.Am I missing something here?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383293</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385735</id>
	<title>Re:I dont understand.</title>
	<author>knightghost</author>
	<datestamp>1245350340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How in the hell do you spend $15m on a server?  Try 1/10th that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>How in the hell do you spend $ 15m on a server ?
Try 1/10th that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How in the hell do you spend $15m on a server?
Try 1/10th that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384851</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28389613</id>
	<title>Break the solution down into parts</title>
	<author>TheEnigma</author>
	<datestamp>1245424920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think that everyone's thinking about this the wrong way. Computers automate processes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the entire process needs to be automated from the minute it's turned on. This fundamental, flawed assumption is always at the heart of these kinds of fiascos.</p><p>If you can write a program to do it, you can also design a manual process. But more importantly, if it's a complex process, you can first break it up into sub-processes, and then automate the parts that involve tasks that are already well understood, and have existing implementations, and do the rest manually. Then replace the manual parts with automated processes piece by piece. The monolithic replacement approach is ridiculous. The side benefit of a hybrid automated/manual approach is that the algorithms and procedures are transparent, and non-programmers can learn them, understand them, critique them, improve them and finally describe them in a form which can be automated. Once manual processes stabilize, they could probably be scripted easily enough, as an intermediate step before conversion to fully custom code modules.</p><p>Now, this would have to be managed, of course, and there would have to be some kind of standards imposed for data formats, but assuming all of the raw data is always digital, and the manual work is mostly comprised of moving the output from one automated step to the next automated step, you would have an ad hoc system that could be evolved into a custom system, while always working the whole time.</p><p>Of course, given that they already have a working system, they should in fact simply be replacing elements of the existing system with modern replacements, one at a time. They could write adapter layers between the existing parts and the replacement parts. It's clear from the description that the system is distributed, running on multiple (hundreds, thousands?) of computers.</p><p>I'm not saying it would be easier or cheaper, but it would work from the get-go, and evolve, and by the time it was finished, the users would already be trained and management could have high confidence that the system worked.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think that everyone 's thinking about this the wrong way .
Computers automate processes , but that does n't necessarily mean that the entire process needs to be automated from the minute it 's turned on .
This fundamental , flawed assumption is always at the heart of these kinds of fiascos.If you can write a program to do it , you can also design a manual process .
But more importantly , if it 's a complex process , you can first break it up into sub-processes , and then automate the parts that involve tasks that are already well understood , and have existing implementations , and do the rest manually .
Then replace the manual parts with automated processes piece by piece .
The monolithic replacement approach is ridiculous .
The side benefit of a hybrid automated/manual approach is that the algorithms and procedures are transparent , and non-programmers can learn them , understand them , critique them , improve them and finally describe them in a form which can be automated .
Once manual processes stabilize , they could probably be scripted easily enough , as an intermediate step before conversion to fully custom code modules.Now , this would have to be managed , of course , and there would have to be some kind of standards imposed for data formats , but assuming all of the raw data is always digital , and the manual work is mostly comprised of moving the output from one automated step to the next automated step , you would have an ad hoc system that could be evolved into a custom system , while always working the whole time.Of course , given that they already have a working system , they should in fact simply be replacing elements of the existing system with modern replacements , one at a time .
They could write adapter layers between the existing parts and the replacement parts .
It 's clear from the description that the system is distributed , running on multiple ( hundreds , thousands ?
) of computers.I 'm not saying it would be easier or cheaper , but it would work from the get-go , and evolve , and by the time it was finished , the users would already be trained and management could have high confidence that the system worked .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think that everyone's thinking about this the wrong way.
Computers automate processes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the entire process needs to be automated from the minute it's turned on.
This fundamental, flawed assumption is always at the heart of these kinds of fiascos.If you can write a program to do it, you can also design a manual process.
But more importantly, if it's a complex process, you can first break it up into sub-processes, and then automate the parts that involve tasks that are already well understood, and have existing implementations, and do the rest manually.
Then replace the manual parts with automated processes piece by piece.
The monolithic replacement approach is ridiculous.
The side benefit of a hybrid automated/manual approach is that the algorithms and procedures are transparent, and non-programmers can learn them, understand them, critique them, improve them and finally describe them in a form which can be automated.
Once manual processes stabilize, they could probably be scripted easily enough, as an intermediate step before conversion to fully custom code modules.Now, this would have to be managed, of course, and there would have to be some kind of standards imposed for data formats, but assuming all of the raw data is always digital, and the manual work is mostly comprised of moving the output from one automated step to the next automated step, you would have an ad hoc system that could be evolved into a custom system, while always working the whole time.Of course, given that they already have a working system, they should in fact simply be replacing elements of the existing system with modern replacements, one at a time.
They could write adapter layers between the existing parts and the replacement parts.
It's clear from the description that the system is distributed, running on multiple (hundreds, thousands?
) of computers.I'm not saying it would be easier or cheaper, but it would work from the get-go, and evolve, and by the time it was finished, the users would already be trained and management could have high confidence that the system worked.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28388975</id>
	<title>Re:Here's the real story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245422340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They have not asked, nor wanted to know HOW to keep running - They have no idea.<br>1) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules\_emulator<br>2) Cost of IBM Z/OS or 2nd Hand Mainframe or software is chump change - IBM cuts great deals with universities<br>3) 30 Year code runs UNMODIFIED - Frankly they lie if they say it does or will not not work<br>4) DB2 runs on Linux, and can have easy, interface to the old system that works<br>5) PC Software Licences are not cheap at all - Microsoft often cuts deals 'free' deals with universities, but Oracle and PeopleSoft do not. No savings.<br>6) Solution. Put out an SOS to newsgroup IBM\_MAIN<br>7) Fire the person who dreamed this up and sustained it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They have not asked , nor wanted to know HOW to keep running - They have no idea.1 ) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules \ _emulator2 ) Cost of IBM Z/OS or 2nd Hand Mainframe or software is chump change - IBM cuts great deals with universities3 ) 30 Year code runs UNMODIFIED - Frankly they lie if they say it does or will not not work4 ) DB2 runs on Linux , and can have easy , interface to the old system that works5 ) PC Software Licences are not cheap at all - Microsoft often cuts deals 'free ' deals with universities , but Oracle and PeopleSoft do not .
No savings.6 ) Solution .
Put out an SOS to newsgroup IBM \ _MAIN7 ) Fire the person who dreamed this up and sustained it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They have not asked, nor wanted to know HOW to keep running - They have no idea.1) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules\_emulator2) Cost of IBM Z/OS or 2nd Hand Mainframe or software is chump change - IBM cuts great deals with universities3) 30 Year code runs UNMODIFIED - Frankly they lie if they say it does or will not not work4) DB2 runs on Linux, and can have easy, interface to the old system that works5) PC Software Licences are not cheap at all - Microsoft often cuts deals 'free' deals with universities, but Oracle and PeopleSoft do not.
No savings.6) Solution.
Put out an SOS to newsgroup IBM\_MAIN7) Fire the person who dreamed this up and sustained it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383469</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28391161</id>
	<title>Re:Managers often have profound ignorance.</title>
	<author>jellie</author>
	<datestamp>1245431460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I laughed when I read that the first $28.4 million was spent on Lawson. My mom is in charge of payroll for a medium-sized company, and the employees are mostly doctors (who are probably the most difficult group to deal with, second only to lawyers). She complains daily about Lawson system that they have been rolling out.</p><p>The IT department of her company is utterly incompetent, and the business analysts and consultants that Lawson sends are just as bad. Lawson is custom-developing the ERP for her company, but no one bothered to work with the users to understand the requirements. Management is bad, but getting rid of poorly-trained consultants would also make the world better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I laughed when I read that the first $ 28.4 million was spent on Lawson .
My mom is in charge of payroll for a medium-sized company , and the employees are mostly doctors ( who are probably the most difficult group to deal with , second only to lawyers ) .
She complains daily about Lawson system that they have been rolling out.The IT department of her company is utterly incompetent , and the business analysts and consultants that Lawson sends are just as bad .
Lawson is custom-developing the ERP for her company , but no one bothered to work with the users to understand the requirements .
Management is bad , but getting rid of poorly-trained consultants would also make the world better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I laughed when I read that the first $28.4 million was spent on Lawson.
My mom is in charge of payroll for a medium-sized company, and the employees are mostly doctors (who are probably the most difficult group to deal with, second only to lawyers).
She complains daily about Lawson system that they have been rolling out.The IT department of her company is utterly incompetent, and the business analysts and consultants that Lawson sends are just as bad.
Lawson is custom-developing the ERP for her company, but no one bothered to work with the users to understand the requirements.
Management is bad, but getting rid of poorly-trained consultants would also make the world better.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383129</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382997</id>
	<title>Re:Bad Title</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245329640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Solved problem.  http://www.adp.com.<br><br>Payroll isn't something companies should be specializing in managing.  ADP/Paychex are kings in this arena for a reason.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Solved problem .
http : //www.adp.com.Payroll is n't something companies should be specializing in managing .
ADP/Paychex are kings in this arena for a reason .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Solved problem.
http://www.adp.com.Payroll isn't something companies should be specializing in managing.
ADP/Paychex are kings in this arena for a reason.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382745</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383469</id>
	<title>Here's the real story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245331680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's nothing wrong with the current payroll system other than it's old and runs on old hardware.  The guys who wrote it 30+ years ago did a pretty good job.</p><p>The problem is, those guys are long retired, and some are dead.  The ones who are still living have some hard feelings.  They got treated like crap and were told to give up their jobs to youngsters whose sole knowledge of COBOL was a CS professor saying how awful it was.  Consequently, there hasn't been much in the way of maintenance or knowledge transfer; the young'uns simply weren't interested.</p><p>They brought an old guy in to deal with Y2K issues.  They agreed to pay him well, but then got chintzy when it turned out that there really wasn't much that he needed to do.  They eventually did pay him, but kicked him to the curb again afterwards.</p><p>Since none of the young'uns understand the system, and the old guy refuses to deal with them any more, they have no choice but to replace it entirely.  The problem is, nobody really knows what went into the system except for the old guy, who has the irritating habit of wanting to be paid to have his knowledge tapped.</p><p>COBOL is not that horrible, except in the minds of the ignorant.  If you could do BASIC or FORTRAN, you could do COBOL.  The bulk of a COBOL program isn't code at all, but instead is structure and format definitions ("data division").  Don't expect to have recursion or local variables (those are all new-fangled extensions) or object-oriented semantics.  Be grateful that the original self-modifying feature of COBOL got removed.  Then just break it down.  Each procedure is labeled, and unless the programmer was an idiot the variable names have some relationship to what they mean.</p><p>The only real PITA for COBOL is learning all the reserved words (there's a few hundred of them) and their semantics.  Other than that, it's just drudgery.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's nothing wrong with the current payroll system other than it 's old and runs on old hardware .
The guys who wrote it 30 + years ago did a pretty good job.The problem is , those guys are long retired , and some are dead .
The ones who are still living have some hard feelings .
They got treated like crap and were told to give up their jobs to youngsters whose sole knowledge of COBOL was a CS professor saying how awful it was .
Consequently , there has n't been much in the way of maintenance or knowledge transfer ; the young'uns simply were n't interested.They brought an old guy in to deal with Y2K issues .
They agreed to pay him well , but then got chintzy when it turned out that there really was n't much that he needed to do .
They eventually did pay him , but kicked him to the curb again afterwards.Since none of the young'uns understand the system , and the old guy refuses to deal with them any more , they have no choice but to replace it entirely .
The problem is , nobody really knows what went into the system except for the old guy , who has the irritating habit of wanting to be paid to have his knowledge tapped.COBOL is not that horrible , except in the minds of the ignorant .
If you could do BASIC or FORTRAN , you could do COBOL .
The bulk of a COBOL program is n't code at all , but instead is structure and format definitions ( " data division " ) .
Do n't expect to have recursion or local variables ( those are all new-fangled extensions ) or object-oriented semantics .
Be grateful that the original self-modifying feature of COBOL got removed .
Then just break it down .
Each procedure is labeled , and unless the programmer was an idiot the variable names have some relationship to what they mean.The only real PITA for COBOL is learning all the reserved words ( there 's a few hundred of them ) and their semantics .
Other than that , it 's just drudgery .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's nothing wrong with the current payroll system other than it's old and runs on old hardware.
The guys who wrote it 30+ years ago did a pretty good job.The problem is, those guys are long retired, and some are dead.
The ones who are still living have some hard feelings.
They got treated like crap and were told to give up their jobs to youngsters whose sole knowledge of COBOL was a CS professor saying how awful it was.
Consequently, there hasn't been much in the way of maintenance or knowledge transfer; the young'uns simply weren't interested.They brought an old guy in to deal with Y2K issues.
They agreed to pay him well, but then got chintzy when it turned out that there really wasn't much that he needed to do.
They eventually did pay him, but kicked him to the curb again afterwards.Since none of the young'uns understand the system, and the old guy refuses to deal with them any more, they have no choice but to replace it entirely.
The problem is, nobody really knows what went into the system except for the old guy, who has the irritating habit of wanting to be paid to have his knowledge tapped.COBOL is not that horrible, except in the minds of the ignorant.
If you could do BASIC or FORTRAN, you could do COBOL.
The bulk of a COBOL program isn't code at all, but instead is structure and format definitions ("data division").
Don't expect to have recursion or local variables (those are all new-fangled extensions) or object-oriented semantics.
Be grateful that the original self-modifying feature of COBOL got removed.
Then just break it down.
Each procedure is labeled, and unless the programmer was an idiot the variable names have some relationship to what they mean.The only real PITA for COBOL is learning all the reserved words (there's a few hundred of them) and their semantics.
Other than that, it's just drudgery.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384709</id>
	<title>Re:Corruption</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245339960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Really?  You would presume malice when incompetence would sufficiently explain this?</p><p>There's this thing called Occam's Razor.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Really ?
You would presume malice when incompetence would sufficiently explain this ? There 's this thing called Occam 's Razor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Really?
You would presume malice when incompetence would sufficiently explain this?There's this thing called Occam's Razor.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383225</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384619</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>trawg</author>
	<datestamp>1245339240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One thing that I'm interested in is, if the U of Wisconsin has a big IT course or business management - is this bad press for it?</p><p>If I was choosing unis, and heard about a massive spectacular project failure at that university - why would I want to go there and have them teach me about similar things?</p><p>(Seems likely that the departments that cause these problems are highly different to the ones doing the teaching, but it seems like an interesting thought experiment<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One thing that I 'm interested in is , if the U of Wisconsin has a big IT course or business management - is this bad press for it ? If I was choosing unis , and heard about a massive spectacular project failure at that university - why would I want to go there and have them teach me about similar things ?
( Seems likely that the departments that cause these problems are highly different to the ones doing the teaching , but it seems like an interesting thought experiment : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One thing that I'm interested in is, if the U of Wisconsin has a big IT course or business management - is this bad press for it?If I was choosing unis, and heard about a massive spectacular project failure at that university - why would I want to go there and have them teach me about similar things?
(Seems likely that the departments that cause these problems are highly different to the ones doing the teaching, but it seems like an interesting thought experiment :)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383055</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383915</id>
	<title>I just want to know</title>
	<author>microbee</author>
	<datestamp>1245334200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Who were fired?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Who were fired ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Who were fired?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385833</id>
	<title>GIGO</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245351240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>U of W is well known for having one of the best computer information systems departments in the US. The problem is not that they can not get the problem solved with drop-in software, the problem is that a university is a pile of idiosyncratic rules and exceptions that do not work rationally in real life.<br> <br>
They are trying to get a computer to act rationally after giving it an irrational input. User error is not the culprit, user created data flows are.</htmltext>
<tokenext>U of W is well known for having one of the best computer information systems departments in the US .
The problem is not that they can not get the problem solved with drop-in software , the problem is that a university is a pile of idiosyncratic rules and exceptions that do not work rationally in real life .
They are trying to get a computer to act rationally after giving it an irrational input .
User error is not the culprit , user created data flows are .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>U of W is well known for having one of the best computer information systems departments in the US.
The problem is not that they can not get the problem solved with drop-in software, the problem is that a university is a pile of idiosyncratic rules and exceptions that do not work rationally in real life.
They are trying to get a computer to act rationally after giving it an irrational input.
User error is not the culprit, user created data flows are.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383129</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28391873</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, ffs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245434520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think you nailed the real problems here.... incompetency in the finance and projects departments at the university. Oh, and hiring incompetent people to do the work didn't help either.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think you nailed the real problems here.... incompetency in the finance and projects departments at the university .
Oh , and hiring incompetent people to do the work did n't help either .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think you nailed the real problems here.... incompetency in the finance and projects departments at the university.
Oh, and hiring incompetent people to do the work didn't help either.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384113</id>
	<title>Re:Bad Title</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245335580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First the UW adopted the PeopleSoft financials.  This has been in place for awhile (my secretary uses it often).  It was an adjustment but is going o.k.</p><p>Then it's decided to upgrade the HR system and some PHBs at UW-System decide on Lawson HR instead of going with PeopleSoft.  Big integration problems (go figure), and iirc, even prior to the Lawson debacle the UW System CIO council came out against it, but the PHBs didn't listen.  Project fails...UW takes lots of heat.  Starts over now with PeopleSoft HR, finds out needs to do more planning to not repeat past failure.  AP comes out with story about being late and over budget again.... when really they're trying not to f-it up again.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First the UW adopted the PeopleSoft financials .
This has been in place for awhile ( my secretary uses it often ) .
It was an adjustment but is going o.k.Then it 's decided to upgrade the HR system and some PHBs at UW-System decide on Lawson HR instead of going with PeopleSoft .
Big integration problems ( go figure ) , and iirc , even prior to the Lawson debacle the UW System CIO council came out against it , but the PHBs did n't listen .
Project fails...UW takes lots of heat .
Starts over now with PeopleSoft HR , finds out needs to do more planning to not repeat past failure .
AP comes out with story about being late and over budget again.... when really they 're trying not to f-it up again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First the UW adopted the PeopleSoft financials.
This has been in place for awhile (my secretary uses it often).
It was an adjustment but is going o.k.Then it's decided to upgrade the HR system and some PHBs at UW-System decide on Lawson HR instead of going with PeopleSoft.
Big integration problems (go figure), and iirc, even prior to the Lawson debacle the UW System CIO council came out against it, but the PHBs didn't listen.
Project fails...UW takes lots of heat.
Starts over now with PeopleSoft HR, finds out needs to do more planning to not repeat past failure.
AP comes out with story about being late and over budget again.... when really they're trying not to f-it up again.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382817</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28387095</id>
	<title>how I would have done it ..</title>
	<author>viralMeme</author>
	<datestamp>1245408180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"<i>The University of Wisconsin is attempting to update a payroll system they have had in place since 1975</i>"<br> <br>

Move to app to an emulator running on current hardware. Adapt the app to what ever changes are necessary. Move the app to run natively on current hardware. Don't use the same people who squandered $28.4 in the previous attempt.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" The University of Wisconsin is attempting to update a payroll system they have had in place since 1975 " Move to app to an emulator running on current hardware .
Adapt the app to what ever changes are necessary .
Move the app to run natively on current hardware .
Do n't use the same people who squandered $ 28.4 in the previous attempt .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"The University of Wisconsin is attempting to update a payroll system they have had in place since 1975" 

Move to app to an emulator running on current hardware.
Adapt the app to what ever changes are necessary.
Move the app to run natively on current hardware.
Don't use the same people who squandered $28.4 in the previous attempt.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385077</id>
	<title>Some kids are profoundly ignorant.</title>
	<author>BrokenHalo</author>
	<datestamp>1245343320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>Often it is a politician showing that he or she is completely ignorant of technical issues</i> <br> <br>Payrolls are hardly technically challenging. By way of perspective, 30 years ago I worked at a computer bureau, which for those too young to remember such a thing, was a shop where businesses brought in their handwritten input data on paper forms, and our keypunch ops would encode it on to mag tape for us to process on our Burroughs B3700 computer.<br> <br>We ran our in-house payroll package for everything from public services to market gardens, and there is no reason why it wouldn't work just as well today, other than that it was written in COBOL, which isn't so trendy any more.<br> <br> <i>The world will be a better place when all the managers retire who were raised without computers.</i> <br> <br>The managers who used our packages were ALL raised without computers. That did not make them incapable or stupid. The world will be a better place when kids stop belittling their elders for no factual reason.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Often it is a politician showing that he or she is completely ignorant of technical issues Payrolls are hardly technically challenging .
By way of perspective , 30 years ago I worked at a computer bureau , which for those too young to remember such a thing , was a shop where businesses brought in their handwritten input data on paper forms , and our keypunch ops would encode it on to mag tape for us to process on our Burroughs B3700 computer .
We ran our in-house payroll package for everything from public services to market gardens , and there is no reason why it would n't work just as well today , other than that it was written in COBOL , which is n't so trendy any more .
The world will be a better place when all the managers retire who were raised without computers .
The managers who used our packages were ALL raised without computers .
That did not make them incapable or stupid .
The world will be a better place when kids stop belittling their elders for no factual reason .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Often it is a politician showing that he or she is completely ignorant of technical issues  Payrolls are hardly technically challenging.
By way of perspective, 30 years ago I worked at a computer bureau, which for those too young to remember such a thing, was a shop where businesses brought in their handwritten input data on paper forms, and our keypunch ops would encode it on to mag tape for us to process on our Burroughs B3700 computer.
We ran our in-house payroll package for everything from public services to market gardens, and there is no reason why it wouldn't work just as well today, other than that it was written in COBOL, which isn't so trendy any more.
The world will be a better place when all the managers retire who were raised without computers.
The managers who used our packages were ALL raised without computers.
That did not make them incapable or stupid.
The world will be a better place when kids stop belittling their elders for no factual reason.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383129</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384685</id>
	<title>I see the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245339780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>" He also said the subcontractor, Accenture, was playing a limited role and was well-qualified for the work. "</p><p>Yeah, sure.  I've been unfortunate enough to work on other projects Accenture was doing for the State of Wisconsin.  Those overran by millions of dollars and months overdue.  At least one got mostly scrapped and redone after late delivery and numerous boondoggles.  I'm not sure why they keep hiring these guys, when over and over and over they'd boned major, multi-million dollar jobs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" He also said the subcontractor , Accenture , was playing a limited role and was well-qualified for the work .
" Yeah , sure .
I 've been unfortunate enough to work on other projects Accenture was doing for the State of Wisconsin .
Those overran by millions of dollars and months overdue .
At least one got mostly scrapped and redone after late delivery and numerous boondoggles .
I 'm not sure why they keep hiring these guys , when over and over and over they 'd boned major , multi-million dollar jobs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>" He also said the subcontractor, Accenture, was playing a limited role and was well-qualified for the work.
"Yeah, sure.
I've been unfortunate enough to work on other projects Accenture was doing for the State of Wisconsin.
Those overran by millions of dollars and months overdue.
At least one got mostly scrapped and redone after late delivery and numerous boondoggles.
I'm not sure why they keep hiring these guys, when over and over and over they'd boned major, multi-million dollar jobs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28388245</id>
	<title>Re:Some kids are profoundly ignorant.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245418920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>and get off my lawn, you young "computer using" wippersnappers!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and get off my lawn , you young " computer using " wippersnappers !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and get off my lawn, you young "computer using" wippersnappers!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28385077</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384601</id>
	<title>Re:Corruption</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245339060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Agreed, the top players pocketed most of the $40K^2 and now want more.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed , the top players pocketed most of the $ 40K ^ 2 and now want more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed, the top players pocketed most of the $40K^2 and now want more.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383225</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383579</id>
	<title>Re:Bad Title</title>
	<author>Bodhidharma</author>
	<datestamp>1245332340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>The $12m is just for the planning.  They originally though $8 million would be enough but it wasn't.  The UW payroll system (really HR system) has to take care of around 60,00 employees at several campuses plus county extension branches.  There are all sorts of job descriptions with different contracts, vacation, sick leave, seniority, retirement plans, insurance, etc.

The previous failure was an embarassment and some reporter figured they could stir up some trouble by making a big deal out of this.  It's better that they get all the processes sorted out before they start writing custom code.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The $ 12m is just for the planning .
They originally though $ 8 million would be enough but it was n't .
The UW payroll system ( really HR system ) has to take care of around 60,00 employees at several campuses plus county extension branches .
There are all sorts of job descriptions with different contracts , vacation , sick leave , seniority , retirement plans , insurance , etc .
The previous failure was an embarassment and some reporter figured they could stir up some trouble by making a big deal out of this .
It 's better that they get all the processes sorted out before they start writing custom code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The $12m is just for the planning.
They originally though $8 million would be enough but it wasn't.
The UW payroll system (really HR system) has to take care of around 60,00 employees at several campuses plus county extension branches.
There are all sorts of job descriptions with different contracts, vacation, sick leave, seniority, retirement plans, insurance, etc.
The previous failure was an embarassment and some reporter figured they could stir up some trouble by making a big deal out of this.
It's better that they get all the processes sorted out before they start writing custom code.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28382817</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28387035</id>
	<title>I know what they could not find anybody.</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1245407460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But I will not tell you. You don't deserve to know....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But I will not tell you .
You do n't deserve to know... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But I will not tell you.
You don't deserve to know....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383145</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28388913</id>
	<title>Subcontractor is Accenture</title>
	<author>daemonenwind</author>
	<datestamp>1245422100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The design/development/implemention is being done by Accenture, formerly Andersen Consulting.</p><p>Need I say more?</p><p><a href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-wi-uwsystempayroll,0,2597575.story" title="chicagotribune.com">http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-wi-uwsystempayroll,0,2597575.story</a> [chicagotribune.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The design/development/implemention is being done by Accenture , formerly Andersen Consulting.Need I say more ? http : //www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-wi-uwsystempayroll,0,2597575.story [ chicagotribune.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The design/development/implemention is being done by Accenture, formerly Andersen Consulting.Need I say more?http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-wi-uwsystempayroll,0,2597575.story [chicagotribune.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28383579</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_18_2310211.28384479</id>
	<title>Par for Course for Peoplesoft Migrations</title>
	<author>Senjutsu</author>
	<datestamp>1245338220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>$20 million+ rollouts for Peoplesoft systems on University campuses are the norm, not the exception. Their salesforce hooks in clueless upper management with tales of little customization and off-the-shelf savings, and then comes the roll-out consulting costs and news that any use of Peoplesoft for financials requires highly complex, site-specific customization at exorbitant consulting fees.<br> <br>Data migration from the old mainframe systems always turns into a nightmare, cost overruns are legion, political pressure to meet deadlines causes internal staff to rack up huge overtime at huge cost, Oracle licensing runs well into 7 figure territory, etc, etc<br> <br>This money was gone the second they selected a Peoplesoft "solution", management just didn't know it at the time</htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 20 million + rollouts for Peoplesoft systems on University campuses are the norm , not the exception .
Their salesforce hooks in clueless upper management with tales of little customization and off-the-shelf savings , and then comes the roll-out consulting costs and news that any use of Peoplesoft for financials requires highly complex , site-specific customization at exorbitant consulting fees .
Data migration from the old mainframe systems always turns into a nightmare , cost overruns are legion , political pressure to meet deadlines causes internal staff to rack up huge overtime at huge cost , Oracle licensing runs well into 7 figure territory , etc , etc This money was gone the second they selected a Peoplesoft " solution " , management just did n't know it at the time</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$20 million+ rollouts for Peoplesoft systems on University campuses are the norm, not the exception.
Their salesforce hooks in clueless upper management with tales of little customization and off-the-shelf savings, and then comes the roll-out consulting costs and news that any use of Peoplesoft for financials requires highly complex, site-specific customization at exorbitant consulting fees.
Data migration from the old mainframe systems always turns into a nightmare, cost overruns are legion, political pressure to meet deadlines causes internal staff to rack up huge overtime at huge cost, Oracle licensing runs well into 7 figure territory, etc, etc This money was gone the second they selected a Peoplesoft "solution", management just didn't know it at the time</sentencetext>
</comment>
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