<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_06_17_2231247</id>
	<title>Getting Beyond the Helldesk</title>
	<author>samzenpus</author>
	<datestamp>1245255540000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>An anonymous reader writes <i>"I've been working as a helpdesk monkey for over a year in a small-medium sized law firm of around 200 users and I don't know if my patience and sanity can last much longer. I'd like to remain in IT, but in less of a front-line role where I can actually get some work done without being interrupted every five minutes by a jamming printer or frozen instance of Outlook. There isn't really any room for progression at my current employer, and with the weak job market it seems I can only move sideways into another support role. I've been considering a full-time Masters degree in a specialized Computer Science area such as databases or Web development, but I don't know if the financial cost and the loss of a year's income and experience can justify it. Do any Slashdotters who have made it beyond the helpdesk have any knowledge or wisdom to impart? Is formal education a good avenue, or would I better off moving back home, getting a mindless but low-stress job, and teaching myself technologies in my free time?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>An anonymous reader writes " I 've been working as a helpdesk monkey for over a year in a small-medium sized law firm of around 200 users and I do n't know if my patience and sanity can last much longer .
I 'd like to remain in IT , but in less of a front-line role where I can actually get some work done without being interrupted every five minutes by a jamming printer or frozen instance of Outlook .
There is n't really any room for progression at my current employer , and with the weak job market it seems I can only move sideways into another support role .
I 've been considering a full-time Masters degree in a specialized Computer Science area such as databases or Web development , but I do n't know if the financial cost and the loss of a year 's income and experience can justify it .
Do any Slashdotters who have made it beyond the helpdesk have any knowledge or wisdom to impart ?
Is formal education a good avenue , or would I better off moving back home , getting a mindless but low-stress job , and teaching myself technologies in my free time ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An anonymous reader writes "I've been working as a helpdesk monkey for over a year in a small-medium sized law firm of around 200 users and I don't know if my patience and sanity can last much longer.
I'd like to remain in IT, but in less of a front-line role where I can actually get some work done without being interrupted every five minutes by a jamming printer or frozen instance of Outlook.
There isn't really any room for progression at my current employer, and with the weak job market it seems I can only move sideways into another support role.
I've been considering a full-time Masters degree in a specialized Computer Science area such as databases or Web development, but I don't know if the financial cost and the loss of a year's income and experience can justify it.
Do any Slashdotters who have made it beyond the helpdesk have any knowledge or wisdom to impart?
Is formal education a good avenue, or would I better off moving back home, getting a mindless but low-stress job, and teaching myself technologies in my free time?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373461</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245337620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On the other hand, why is Outlook getting frozen? I support Outlook and it almost never locks up. You dealing with big PST files? A policy for deploying Outlook that isn't quite working out? Triage these cases, solve the root problem, and get rid of them.</p><p>--Sam</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On the other hand , why is Outlook getting frozen ?
I support Outlook and it almost never locks up .
You dealing with big PST files ?
A policy for deploying Outlook that is n't quite working out ?
Triage these cases , solve the root problem , and get rid of them.--Sam</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On the other hand, why is Outlook getting frozen?
I support Outlook and it almost never locks up.
You dealing with big PST files?
A policy for deploying Outlook that isn't quite working out?
Triage these cases, solve the root problem, and get rid of them.--Sam</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369959</id>
	<title>My question exactly</title>
	<author>Infin1niteX</author>
	<datestamp>1245263100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I graduate in May with an B.S. technical networking and security degree from Purdue and am currently wondering if going for certifications or a masters would help me find a better job during these fun economic times.  Purdue currently offers a master in both my degree and computer science, but then there is also and MBA option that would allow you to get more into the management side of things, so I guess it depends on what you really want to do.

Seems like most of the people here want to call the op an idiot or that he doesn't understand IT when all he seems to be asking is how do i go from being the mindless helpdesk guy that every takes for granted to a Network Admin type position.  Which just the bosses take for granted.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I graduate in May with an B.S .
technical networking and security degree from Purdue and am currently wondering if going for certifications or a masters would help me find a better job during these fun economic times .
Purdue currently offers a master in both my degree and computer science , but then there is also and MBA option that would allow you to get more into the management side of things , so I guess it depends on what you really want to do .
Seems like most of the people here want to call the op an idiot or that he does n't understand IT when all he seems to be asking is how do i go from being the mindless helpdesk guy that every takes for granted to a Network Admin type position .
Which just the bosses take for granted .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I graduate in May with an B.S.
technical networking and security degree from Purdue and am currently wondering if going for certifications or a masters would help me find a better job during these fun economic times.
Purdue currently offers a master in both my degree and computer science, but then there is also and MBA option that would allow you to get more into the management side of things, so I guess it depends on what you really want to do.
Seems like most of the people here want to call the op an idiot or that he doesn't understand IT when all he seems to be asking is how do i go from being the mindless helpdesk guy that every takes for granted to a Network Admin type position.
Which just the bosses take for granted.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374001</id>
	<title>Re:Become an image designer</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1245339900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"t. (Pay for the training before you seek reimbursement, and attend it even if you don't get the money from your employer. "</p><p>I disagree. Ypu should write down how this will save them money and prepare them for the move(assuming they will move) present it to them and ask for them to pay for training upfront. Find the MOST expensive way to do this.<br>If(when) they say no ask why? Most likely they will bring up the expense. Find what they will pay and find a cheaper class. A smart person will already have this lined up but be quite about it. Outcomes:<br>A) You get some great free training at a really nice place and get to stay in a hotel for a couple days, exepnses paid<br>B) You go someplace local, but paid<br>C) You go someplace and partial pay<br>D) You pay it all.</p><p>These are lawyers. show them you ahve a goal and motivation and it will make them money.</p><p>My ehtics would dictate that I stay with the company for at least a couple years while trying to improve it. Not just in everyday tasks, but writing up what you do and how it saved money.<br>Become a professional expert in their minds. When you out grow the place, talk to them tell them you are looking becasue you ahve out grown the place and have a plan to help them transition into whoever they get to replace you. Also, talk to them about their network of people and if they no anyone.</p><p>Unless you pay for the training yourself. In that case get the hell out the moment training ends.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" t. ( Pay for the training before you seek reimbursement , and attend it even if you do n't get the money from your employer .
" I disagree .
Ypu should write down how this will save them money and prepare them for the move ( assuming they will move ) present it to them and ask for them to pay for training upfront .
Find the MOST expensive way to do this.If ( when ) they say no ask why ?
Most likely they will bring up the expense .
Find what they will pay and find a cheaper class .
A smart person will already have this lined up but be quite about it .
Outcomes : A ) You get some great free training at a really nice place and get to stay in a hotel for a couple days , exepnses paidB ) You go someplace local , but paidC ) You go someplace and partial payD ) You pay it all.These are lawyers .
show them you ahve a goal and motivation and it will make them money.My ehtics would dictate that I stay with the company for at least a couple years while trying to improve it .
Not just in everyday tasks , but writing up what you do and how it saved money.Become a professional expert in their minds .
When you out grow the place , talk to them tell them you are looking becasue you ahve out grown the place and have a plan to help them transition into whoever they get to replace you .
Also , talk to them about their network of people and if they no anyone.Unless you pay for the training yourself .
In that case get the hell out the moment training ends .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"t. (Pay for the training before you seek reimbursement, and attend it even if you don't get the money from your employer.
"I disagree.
Ypu should write down how this will save them money and prepare them for the move(assuming they will move) present it to them and ask for them to pay for training upfront.
Find the MOST expensive way to do this.If(when) they say no ask why?
Most likely they will bring up the expense.
Find what they will pay and find a cheaper class.
A smart person will already have this lined up but be quite about it.
Outcomes:A) You get some great free training at a really nice place and get to stay in a hotel for a couple days, exepnses paidB) You go someplace local, but paidC) You go someplace and partial payD) You pay it all.These are lawyers.
show them you ahve a goal and motivation and it will make them money.My ehtics would dictate that I stay with the company for at least a couple years while trying to improve it.
Not just in everyday tasks, but writing up what you do and how it saved money.Become a professional expert in their minds.
When you out grow the place, talk to them tell them you are looking becasue you ahve out grown the place and have a plan to help them transition into whoever they get to replace you.
Also, talk to them about their network of people and if they no anyone.Unless you pay for the training yourself.
In that case get the hell out the moment training ends.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371885</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369855</id>
	<title>Fuck You</title>
	<author>Wabbit Wabbit</author>
	<datestamp>1245261780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You know what? My excellent karma be damned.</p><p>How about you help desk workers actually solve some shit for a change.  I'm tired of calling the help desk (be it corporate or extra-corporate like my cellphone provider) and never getting anything fixed.  I don't give a damn about where you want to get to or what (or who) you think you're supposed to be.  That's precisely the problem.  You're worried about where you think you're supposed to be instead of getting your fucking job done.  Fuck you.  To high holy hell.  Solve some goddamn problems instead of whining.  Or don't work the fucking helpdesk if that's not where you want to be.</p><p>Guess what.  I don't give a fuck about you or your career, any more than I do the corner mechanic.  Solve my fucking computer problems.  That's it.  That's what you're paid to do.  That's what I call you for.  That's your job.  Goddamn fucking do it.  For once.  Okay?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You know what ?
My excellent karma be damned.How about you help desk workers actually solve some shit for a change .
I 'm tired of calling the help desk ( be it corporate or extra-corporate like my cellphone provider ) and never getting anything fixed .
I do n't give a damn about where you want to get to or what ( or who ) you think you 're supposed to be .
That 's precisely the problem .
You 're worried about where you think you 're supposed to be instead of getting your fucking job done .
Fuck you .
To high holy hell .
Solve some goddamn problems instead of whining .
Or do n't work the fucking helpdesk if that 's not where you want to be.Guess what .
I do n't give a fuck about you or your career , any more than I do the corner mechanic .
Solve my fucking computer problems .
That 's it .
That 's what you 're paid to do .
That 's what I call you for .
That 's your job .
Goddamn fucking do it .
For once .
Okay ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know what?
My excellent karma be damned.How about you help desk workers actually solve some shit for a change.
I'm tired of calling the help desk (be it corporate or extra-corporate like my cellphone provider) and never getting anything fixed.
I don't give a damn about where you want to get to or what (or who) you think you're supposed to be.
That's precisely the problem.
You're worried about where you think you're supposed to be instead of getting your fucking job done.
Fuck you.
To high holy hell.
Solve some goddamn problems instead of whining.
Or don't work the fucking helpdesk if that's not where you want to be.Guess what.
I don't give a fuck about you or your career, any more than I do the corner mechanic.
Solve my fucking computer problems.
That's it.
That's what you're paid to do.
That's what I call you for.
That's your job.
Goddamn fucking do it.
For once.
Okay?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28426425</id>
	<title>Re:Learn a UNIX</title>
	<author>prizrak</author>
	<datestamp>1245700260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I fully agree with "Learn a UNIX" advice. Here in MA there seem to be a shortage of qualified UNIX admins even nowadays.</p><p>I've been trying to hire 3 Senior UNIX/Linux admins (long term contract) for last 2 months and I had to go through 72 (yes, 72) candidates  that I phone screened before locating qualified individuals - and that's only the ones who passed simpler phone pre-screening. We needed someone who knows Solaris/Veritas/Linux well so that made it more difficult - but still, good experienced UNIX admins are definitely in demand.</p><p>If you have RHCE certification - that is always a big plus, 5 hours of hands on test do tend to identify who can make things work quickly and who can't. Solaris certs are also a plus, though not as valuable as RHCE IMO. And of course experience is above all important for everything.</p><p>So if UNIX is something you like to work on - it is easy to start on your own and work your way up step by step.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I fully agree with " Learn a UNIX " advice .
Here in MA there seem to be a shortage of qualified UNIX admins even nowadays.I 've been trying to hire 3 Senior UNIX/Linux admins ( long term contract ) for last 2 months and I had to go through 72 ( yes , 72 ) candidates that I phone screened before locating qualified individuals - and that 's only the ones who passed simpler phone pre-screening .
We needed someone who knows Solaris/Veritas/Linux well so that made it more difficult - but still , good experienced UNIX admins are definitely in demand.If you have RHCE certification - that is always a big plus , 5 hours of hands on test do tend to identify who can make things work quickly and who ca n't .
Solaris certs are also a plus , though not as valuable as RHCE IMO .
And of course experience is above all important for everything.So if UNIX is something you like to work on - it is easy to start on your own and work your way up step by step .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I fully agree with "Learn a UNIX" advice.
Here in MA there seem to be a shortage of qualified UNIX admins even nowadays.I've been trying to hire 3 Senior UNIX/Linux admins (long term contract) for last 2 months and I had to go through 72 (yes, 72) candidates  that I phone screened before locating qualified individuals - and that's only the ones who passed simpler phone pre-screening.
We needed someone who knows Solaris/Veritas/Linux well so that made it more difficult - but still, good experienced UNIX admins are definitely in demand.If you have RHCE certification - that is always a big plus, 5 hours of hands on test do tend to identify who can make things work quickly and who can't.
Solaris certs are also a plus, though not as valuable as RHCE IMO.
And of course experience is above all important for everything.So if UNIX is something you like to work on - it is easy to start on your own and work your way up step by step.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369667</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28388201</id>
	<title>anonymous coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245418680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just to return to the original poster's question for a second:</p><p>Do not do what you are planning.  If going to school before and getting a CS degree got you into the help desk, what will be different about it the second time around?  People don't care at all about master's degrees in CS - most are bogus.  If you actually like something in the IT field, try to get experience in that, maybe by volunteering at a non-profit.  Then you may get a paying job doing it.  If you can't think of anything you like in IT enough to do this, go into something else.  You have to have something you like about any job to let you put up with all the shit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just to return to the original poster 's question for a second : Do not do what you are planning .
If going to school before and getting a CS degree got you into the help desk , what will be different about it the second time around ?
People do n't care at all about master 's degrees in CS - most are bogus .
If you actually like something in the IT field , try to get experience in that , maybe by volunteering at a non-profit .
Then you may get a paying job doing it .
If you ca n't think of anything you like in IT enough to do this , go into something else .
You have to have something you like about any job to let you put up with all the shit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just to return to the original poster's question for a second:Do not do what you are planning.
If going to school before and getting a CS degree got you into the help desk, what will be different about it the second time around?
People don't care at all about master's degrees in CS - most are bogus.
If you actually like something in the IT field, try to get experience in that, maybe by volunteering at a non-profit.
Then you may get a paying job doing it.
If you can't think of anything you like in IT enough to do this, go into something else.
You have to have something you like about any job to let you put up with all the shit.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373965</id>
	<title>Re:It's not that bad, just stick with it!</title>
	<author>bioneuralnet</author>
	<datestamp>1245339780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes, I expect my end users will soon be patching software themselves. Time to start looking for a new profession...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , I expect my end users will soon be patching software themselves .
Time to start looking for a new profession.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, I expect my end users will soon be patching software themselves.
Time to start looking for a new profession...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369603</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28375079</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245344280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes seriously well written!  I too have struggled with the exact concept, Do should I really work in the area of my hobbies?  Can it ruin my love of programming?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes seriously well written !
I too have struggled with the exact concept , Do should I really work in the area of my hobbies ?
Can it ruin my love of programming ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes seriously well written!
I too have struggled with the exact concept, Do should I really work in the area of my hobbies?
Can it ruin my love of programming?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28377433</id>
	<title>HellDesk</title>
	<author>MacViper</author>
	<datestamp>1245353220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Helldesk....Yeah I was with the helldesk for 5 years before I was able to switch out.  I decided to do a Master's degree part-time while working full-time.  I switched to a job that complimented my Master's degree.   I would not advise getting out of technology, getting a low-stress IT job, and learning it on your own.  I have assisted in the interview process and experience counts.  If you say you work at Borders and you are learning PHP on your own, you will be expected to show a portfolio of your work.  If you can balance doing an advanced degree while working, that would be the best in my opinion.  There are also a lot of MIS online degrees that you could do.  Another option is to save up money and do some boot camps, like CEH (certified ethical hacker), CISSP, or whatever interests you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Helldesk....Yeah I was with the helldesk for 5 years before I was able to switch out .
I decided to do a Master 's degree part-time while working full-time .
I switched to a job that complimented my Master 's degree .
I would not advise getting out of technology , getting a low-stress IT job , and learning it on your own .
I have assisted in the interview process and experience counts .
If you say you work at Borders and you are learning PHP on your own , you will be expected to show a portfolio of your work .
If you can balance doing an advanced degree while working , that would be the best in my opinion .
There are also a lot of MIS online degrees that you could do .
Another option is to save up money and do some boot camps , like CEH ( certified ethical hacker ) , CISSP , or whatever interests you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Helldesk....Yeah I was with the helldesk for 5 years before I was able to switch out.
I decided to do a Master's degree part-time while working full-time.
I switched to a job that complimented my Master's degree.
I would not advise getting out of technology, getting a low-stress IT job, and learning it on your own.
I have assisted in the interview process and experience counts.
If you say you work at Borders and you are learning PHP on your own, you will be expected to show a portfolio of your work.
If you can balance doing an advanced degree while working, that would be the best in my opinion.
There are also a lot of MIS online degrees that you could do.
Another option is to save up money and do some boot camps, like CEH (certified ethical hacker), CISSP, or whatever interests you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370555</id>
	<title>Re:Fuck You</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245356820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What a whining bitch.</p><p>Just from your post I can tell the cause of most of your issues, but first I want to say that really you're just some fucking douchbag who thinks he know what's going on when in reality you don't have a goddamn clue. You know just enough about computers to really get one good and fucked up, but you don't know shit about getting it right again, otherwise you wouldn't be calling the help desk. If you're so fucking smart, fix it yourself asshole, you broke it. The reason nobody wants to help you is because you're a dick. And you think everybody owes you something. You're exactly the reason everybody hates working the helpdesk, and you're also exactly the caller that everybody on the helpdesk loves to fuck. The helpdesk is there to help, just look, it's even in the name, if you just want to bitch and whine and cry and scream and holler and complain, then get a fucking dog or go beat your wife again, because nobody at the helpdesk gives a shit. They will go out of their way to give you as little help and advice as possible, and then sit around laughing about it after they got you pissed off enough to hang up.</p><p>As far as your computer issues, I can state with 100\% accuracy that the root cause of 95\% of your problems sit squarely between the keyboard and the chair.</p><p>Problem solved, ticket closed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What a whining bitch.Just from your post I can tell the cause of most of your issues , but first I want to say that really you 're just some fucking douchbag who thinks he know what 's going on when in reality you do n't have a goddamn clue .
You know just enough about computers to really get one good and fucked up , but you do n't know shit about getting it right again , otherwise you would n't be calling the help desk .
If you 're so fucking smart , fix it yourself asshole , you broke it .
The reason nobody wants to help you is because you 're a dick .
And you think everybody owes you something .
You 're exactly the reason everybody hates working the helpdesk , and you 're also exactly the caller that everybody on the helpdesk loves to fuck .
The helpdesk is there to help , just look , it 's even in the name , if you just want to bitch and whine and cry and scream and holler and complain , then get a fucking dog or go beat your wife again , because nobody at the helpdesk gives a shit .
They will go out of their way to give you as little help and advice as possible , and then sit around laughing about it after they got you pissed off enough to hang up.As far as your computer issues , I can state with 100 \ % accuracy that the root cause of 95 \ % of your problems sit squarely between the keyboard and the chair.Problem solved , ticket closed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What a whining bitch.Just from your post I can tell the cause of most of your issues, but first I want to say that really you're just some fucking douchbag who thinks he know what's going on when in reality you don't have a goddamn clue.
You know just enough about computers to really get one good and fucked up, but you don't know shit about getting it right again, otherwise you wouldn't be calling the help desk.
If you're so fucking smart, fix it yourself asshole, you broke it.
The reason nobody wants to help you is because you're a dick.
And you think everybody owes you something.
You're exactly the reason everybody hates working the helpdesk, and you're also exactly the caller that everybody on the helpdesk loves to fuck.
The helpdesk is there to help, just look, it's even in the name, if you just want to bitch and whine and cry and scream and holler and complain, then get a fucking dog or go beat your wife again, because nobody at the helpdesk gives a shit.
They will go out of their way to give you as little help and advice as possible, and then sit around laughing about it after they got you pissed off enough to hang up.As far as your computer issues, I can state with 100\% accuracy that the root cause of 95\% of your problems sit squarely between the keyboard and the chair.Problem solved, ticket closed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369855</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369705</id>
	<title>Hack slashot</title>
	<author>Korbeau</author>
	<datestamp>1245260340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>(for some reaason the site is behaving weird right now, maybe it's going on... but..)</p><p>Hack slashdot!  If you can do that you'll get a great job, and CowboyNeal will give you nice neck massages everyday.  Trembling massages, in FEAR!!!1</p><p>Oh, and yeah, you can get a job at M$ or Google easily afterwards, if you answer some dumb IQ questionaire.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>( for some reaason the site is behaving weird right now , maybe it 's going on... but.. ) Hack slashdot !
If you can do that you 'll get a great job , and CowboyNeal will give you nice neck massages everyday .
Trembling massages , in FEAR ! !
! 1Oh , and yeah , you can get a job at M $ or Google easily afterwards , if you answer some dumb IQ questionaire .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>(for some reaason the site is behaving weird right now, maybe it's going on... but..)Hack slashdot!
If you can do that you'll get a great job, and CowboyNeal will give you nice neck massages everyday.
Trembling massages, in FEAR!!
!1Oh, and yeah, you can get a job at M$ or Google easily afterwards, if you answer some dumb IQ questionaire.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28388155</id>
	<title>Why do you want to be in IT?</title>
	<author>nicholdraper</author>
	<datestamp>1245418380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you like software development, why do you want to be in IT?  IT is essentially a service job.  Sure, some larger companies strangely try to develop custom applications in their IT departments, but, most have a separate department called Engineering or R&amp;D where software is developed.  Software Engineers rarely take support calls.  Tasks are project based and not crisis based.  The only rub is that some companies have IT departments that have individuals who think they know something about computers.  At one company, I worked on a committee rewriting company computer usage policy, I specifically added that the engineering departments lab was off-limits to IT and exempt from IT computer use rules.  Due to the "police" enforcement mentality of some IT groups, and often their lack of understanding of software development, engineering groups look on IT background with some disdain.  So, you will find it nearly impossible to move from IT to better software development jobs in the same company.  Find friends who have made the switch and apply to them at other companies.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you like software development , why do you want to be in IT ?
IT is essentially a service job .
Sure , some larger companies strangely try to develop custom applications in their IT departments , but , most have a separate department called Engineering or R&amp;D where software is developed .
Software Engineers rarely take support calls .
Tasks are project based and not crisis based .
The only rub is that some companies have IT departments that have individuals who think they know something about computers .
At one company , I worked on a committee rewriting company computer usage policy , I specifically added that the engineering departments lab was off-limits to IT and exempt from IT computer use rules .
Due to the " police " enforcement mentality of some IT groups , and often their lack of understanding of software development , engineering groups look on IT background with some disdain .
So , you will find it nearly impossible to move from IT to better software development jobs in the same company .
Find friends who have made the switch and apply to them at other companies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you like software development, why do you want to be in IT?
IT is essentially a service job.
Sure, some larger companies strangely try to develop custom applications in their IT departments, but, most have a separate department called Engineering or R&amp;D where software is developed.
Software Engineers rarely take support calls.
Tasks are project based and not crisis based.
The only rub is that some companies have IT departments that have individuals who think they know something about computers.
At one company, I worked on a committee rewriting company computer usage policy, I specifically added that the engineering departments lab was off-limits to IT and exempt from IT computer use rules.
Due to the "police" enforcement mentality of some IT groups, and often their lack of understanding of software development, engineering groups look on IT background with some disdain.
So, you will find it nearly impossible to move from IT to better software development jobs in the same company.
Find friends who have made the switch and apply to them at other companies.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371443</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245322140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I love that post.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I love that post .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I love that post.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28379129</id>
	<title>Well said...</title>
	<author>Amigori</author>
	<datestamp>1245357780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well said.  Thank you for posting that.  I wish more people understood the points you made, especially about IT being about service.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well said .
Thank you for posting that .
I wish more people understood the points you made , especially about IT being about service .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well said.
Thank you for posting that.
I wish more people understood the points you made, especially about IT being about service.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369783</id>
	<title>School is for people who can't read</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245261120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are a few excellent reasons to go to school:<br>
   -  your field has you using multi-million dollar equipment that you simply cannot access outside of the academic world<br>
   -  you don't know what you want, and need someone to plot a course through life for you<br>
   -  you can't read and need to be taught the alphabet</p><p>In this field, help-desk, databases, web-development are all the same:<br>
   -  exceptionally well and accurately documented<br>
   -  always using very inexpensive or free tools<br>
   -  catering to intelligent people</p><p>If you want to learn web development, grab as many books as you like, read through MSDN and your favourite firefox wiki.  Read, tinker, play.  Read the HTML specifications.  Keep playing.  In school, you'd simply have shorter hours, and someone telling you to read chapter 1, then telling you to read chapter 2, then telling you to read chapter 3.  Oh yeah, and they'd tell you that you read only 92\% of chapter 2.</p><p>If you want to learn about databases, install mysql with about ten clicks, and read the mysql documention.  It's not a puzzle, it's just a process.  By the time you've read the, what 500 pages of syntax, you'll be able to play forever.</p><p>You don't need someone else telling you how to do something when it's written down.  After all, there aren't that many people who know more about mysql than is written in the documentation.  Maybe six of the people who built it.  Everyone else simply read the documentation before you.  Professors included.  The story would be different if your goal were to build databases for enormous applications.  But like I tell all of my clients when they ask if my selection of mysql as a database can meet their company's needs: "your company has 500 clients and 10 employees, the database world is concerned with millions of records.  we'll talk again after your widget takes over manhattan".</p><p>The biggest reason to dodge formal education in these types of areas is that the curiculum is set-in-stone well before you start the course -- actually well before your sign up for the course, and even well before they decide to offer the course.  So you're guaranteed to be learning old technologies.  In this industry, six months counts as old.  This all means that when you're done, and out, you won't have any confidence in your skills simply because you will not have used them in the real world.  Academic assignments are useless.</p><p>So in the end, you'll have a very valuable piece of paper.  It has the following values:<br>
   -  you spent time and money to acquire it.  that alone is an achievement recognized not only by many but will certainly be a point of pride for you.<br>
   -  some others, namely<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.H.R. departments, look for that stuff.  These are the same<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.H.R. departments that wanted 6 years of Java from me when Java was 2 years old.  It's actually quite funny, or would be if it weren't so very very sad.</p><p>Clients will never ask you for credentials, or certificates, or diplomas, or degrees.  Clients ask for guarantees, and you don't supply those either in our industry.</p><p>So if you really want to do something about your skills, then the following is what you truly desire:<br>
   -  assistance (not guidance) in acquiring the skills<br>
   -  a forum for testing and experimenting with those skills<br>
   -  confidence in those skills<br>
   -  an understanding of the applications of those skills</p><p>Then what you want is a job in a company where you will learn those skills on your own.  Offer to work for very little pay.  Either for businesses outside of the industry where they will benefit from whatever you actually can produce as you learn to produce it; or for a company in the industry who will gladly help to train you in the hopes that eventually you'll be good enou</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are a few excellent reasons to go to school : - your field has you using multi-million dollar equipment that you simply can not access outside of the academic world - you do n't know what you want , and need someone to plot a course through life for you - you ca n't read and need to be taught the alphabetIn this field , help-desk , databases , web-development are all the same : - exceptionally well and accurately documented - always using very inexpensive or free tools - catering to intelligent peopleIf you want to learn web development , grab as many books as you like , read through MSDN and your favourite firefox wiki .
Read , tinker , play .
Read the HTML specifications .
Keep playing .
In school , you 'd simply have shorter hours , and someone telling you to read chapter 1 , then telling you to read chapter 2 , then telling you to read chapter 3 .
Oh yeah , and they 'd tell you that you read only 92 \ % of chapter 2.If you want to learn about databases , install mysql with about ten clicks , and read the mysql documention .
It 's not a puzzle , it 's just a process .
By the time you 've read the , what 500 pages of syntax , you 'll be able to play forever.You do n't need someone else telling you how to do something when it 's written down .
After all , there are n't that many people who know more about mysql than is written in the documentation .
Maybe six of the people who built it .
Everyone else simply read the documentation before you .
Professors included .
The story would be different if your goal were to build databases for enormous applications .
But like I tell all of my clients when they ask if my selection of mysql as a database can meet their company 's needs : " your company has 500 clients and 10 employees , the database world is concerned with millions of records .
we 'll talk again after your widget takes over manhattan " .The biggest reason to dodge formal education in these types of areas is that the curiculum is set-in-stone well before you start the course -- actually well before your sign up for the course , and even well before they decide to offer the course .
So you 're guaranteed to be learning old technologies .
In this industry , six months counts as old .
This all means that when you 're done , and out , you wo n't have any confidence in your skills simply because you will not have used them in the real world .
Academic assignments are useless.So in the end , you 'll have a very valuable piece of paper .
It has the following values : - you spent time and money to acquire it .
that alone is an achievement recognized not only by many but will certainly be a point of pride for you .
- some others , namely .H.R .
departments , look for that stuff .
These are the same .H.R .
departments that wanted 6 years of Java from me when Java was 2 years old .
It 's actually quite funny , or would be if it were n't so very very sad.Clients will never ask you for credentials , or certificates , or diplomas , or degrees .
Clients ask for guarantees , and you do n't supply those either in our industry.So if you really want to do something about your skills , then the following is what you truly desire : - assistance ( not guidance ) in acquiring the skills - a forum for testing and experimenting with those skills - confidence in those skills - an understanding of the applications of those skillsThen what you want is a job in a company where you will learn those skills on your own .
Offer to work for very little pay .
Either for businesses outside of the industry where they will benefit from whatever you actually can produce as you learn to produce it ; or for a company in the industry who will gladly help to train you in the hopes that eventually you 'll be good enou</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are a few excellent reasons to go to school:
   -  your field has you using multi-million dollar equipment that you simply cannot access outside of the academic world
   -  you don't know what you want, and need someone to plot a course through life for you
   -  you can't read and need to be taught the alphabetIn this field, help-desk, databases, web-development are all the same:
   -  exceptionally well and accurately documented
   -  always using very inexpensive or free tools
   -  catering to intelligent peopleIf you want to learn web development, grab as many books as you like, read through MSDN and your favourite firefox wiki.
Read, tinker, play.
Read the HTML specifications.
Keep playing.
In school, you'd simply have shorter hours, and someone telling you to read chapter 1, then telling you to read chapter 2, then telling you to read chapter 3.
Oh yeah, and they'd tell you that you read only 92\% of chapter 2.If you want to learn about databases, install mysql with about ten clicks, and read the mysql documention.
It's not a puzzle, it's just a process.
By the time you've read the, what 500 pages of syntax, you'll be able to play forever.You don't need someone else telling you how to do something when it's written down.
After all, there aren't that many people who know more about mysql than is written in the documentation.
Maybe six of the people who built it.
Everyone else simply read the documentation before you.
Professors included.
The story would be different if your goal were to build databases for enormous applications.
But like I tell all of my clients when they ask if my selection of mysql as a database can meet their company's needs: "your company has 500 clients and 10 employees, the database world is concerned with millions of records.
we'll talk again after your widget takes over manhattan".The biggest reason to dodge formal education in these types of areas is that the curiculum is set-in-stone well before you start the course -- actually well before your sign up for the course, and even well before they decide to offer the course.
So you're guaranteed to be learning old technologies.
In this industry, six months counts as old.
This all means that when you're done, and out, you won't have any confidence in your skills simply because you will not have used them in the real world.
Academic assignments are useless.So in the end, you'll have a very valuable piece of paper.
It has the following values:
   -  you spent time and money to acquire it.
that alone is an achievement recognized not only by many but will certainly be a point of pride for you.
-  some others, namely .H.R.
departments, look for that stuff.
These are the same .H.R.
departments that wanted 6 years of Java from me when Java was 2 years old.
It's actually quite funny, or would be if it weren't so very very sad.Clients will never ask you for credentials, or certificates, or diplomas, or degrees.
Clients ask for guarantees, and you don't supply those either in our industry.So if you really want to do something about your skills, then the following is what you truly desire:
   -  assistance (not guidance) in acquiring the skills
   -  a forum for testing and experimenting with those skills
   -  confidence in those skills
   -  an understanding of the applications of those skillsThen what you want is a job in a company where you will learn those skills on your own.
Offer to work for very little pay.
Either for businesses outside of the industry where they will benefit from whatever you actually can produce as you learn to produce it; or for a company in the industry who will gladly help to train you in the hopes that eventually you'll be good enou</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28385399</id>
	<title>MSCS=Bologney</title>
	<author>WhiteHorse-The Origi</author>
	<datestamp>1245347280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've looked at several MSCS degrees and they are pretty weak. I taught myself 70\% of the Stanford MSCS curriculum in my basement or on-the-job and the other 30\% I learned in math class. Unless you can get into a top school(Carnegie Mellon, MIT) and arrange post-grad work in advance, a Master's is a waste of time/money.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've looked at several MSCS degrees and they are pretty weak .
I taught myself 70 \ % of the Stanford MSCS curriculum in my basement or on-the-job and the other 30 \ % I learned in math class .
Unless you can get into a top school ( Carnegie Mellon , MIT ) and arrange post-grad work in advance , a Master 's is a waste of time/money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've looked at several MSCS degrees and they are pretty weak.
I taught myself 70\% of the Stanford MSCS curriculum in my basement or on-the-job and the other 30\% I learned in math class.
Unless you can get into a top school(Carnegie Mellon, MIT) and arrange post-grad work in advance, a Master's is a waste of time/money.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369931</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370051</id>
	<title>Talk to your IT manager... he might be able to hlp</title>
	<author>DaEMoN128</author>
	<datestamp>1245264300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It all depends on what your IT department is set up like.  Are your networking / server people working hand in hand with you?  System Engineers (the server sysadds at my job) work hand in hand with the Service desk.  If you are qualified, can show experience, and have a well written resume.. they will look at you when a position opens up.  Same with the networking engineers.</p><p>I was in your position back in Dec.  I asked the IT manager if they were looking for people and on what teams.  He replied that they were looking for NE's to work a hell shift (12's, 4 on , 4 off, nights).  I got my resume together, started brushing up on my networking and interviewed for the job.  I have a co worker who is in the same situation and they won't look at him.  He is trying to get to the systems side of the house.  He is a MCSE for 2k3 and can't even get an interview.....</p><p>There has to be an opening you can move into.  Start working towards your trade certs (juniper, cisco, microsoft, etc.).  It will be easier to get to an interview if you have the certs to back it up.  You already have your foot in the door.  IF you are good at what you do, management will have noticed.  They are the ones to talk to about moving up into an open slot.  If your companies turn over rate involves death... then you might want to put out a resume.</p><p>TIPS on your resume..<br>1. Proof read.<br>2. Tailor it to each job you are applying for.<br>3. Write a separate and distinct objective statement and cover letter for each application.<br>4. No huge blocks of texts.  Make it easy on the eyes.<br>5. Take the skills listed in the job listing and make sure those words match in your resume, most HR departments do a key word search because they don't understand a tech resume.<br>6. Give a specific outline for your repsonibilites for each job... if they want to know more they will ask you in the interview.</p><p>Once you get to the interview.. the job is yours to lose.. not yours to gain.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It all depends on what your IT department is set up like .
Are your networking / server people working hand in hand with you ?
System Engineers ( the server sysadds at my job ) work hand in hand with the Service desk .
If you are qualified , can show experience , and have a well written resume.. they will look at you when a position opens up .
Same with the networking engineers.I was in your position back in Dec. I asked the IT manager if they were looking for people and on what teams .
He replied that they were looking for NE 's to work a hell shift ( 12 's , 4 on , 4 off , nights ) .
I got my resume together , started brushing up on my networking and interviewed for the job .
I have a co worker who is in the same situation and they wo n't look at him .
He is trying to get to the systems side of the house .
He is a MCSE for 2k3 and ca n't even get an interview.....There has to be an opening you can move into .
Start working towards your trade certs ( juniper , cisco , microsoft , etc. ) .
It will be easier to get to an interview if you have the certs to back it up .
You already have your foot in the door .
IF you are good at what you do , management will have noticed .
They are the ones to talk to about moving up into an open slot .
If your companies turn over rate involves death... then you might want to put out a resume.TIPS on your resume..1 .
Proof read.2 .
Tailor it to each job you are applying for.3 .
Write a separate and distinct objective statement and cover letter for each application.4 .
No huge blocks of texts .
Make it easy on the eyes.5 .
Take the skills listed in the job listing and make sure those words match in your resume , most HR departments do a key word search because they do n't understand a tech resume.6 .
Give a specific outline for your repsonibilites for each job... if they want to know more they will ask you in the interview.Once you get to the interview.. the job is yours to lose.. not yours to gain .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It all depends on what your IT department is set up like.
Are your networking / server people working hand in hand with you?
System Engineers (the server sysadds at my job) work hand in hand with the Service desk.
If you are qualified, can show experience, and have a well written resume.. they will look at you when a position opens up.
Same with the networking engineers.I was in your position back in Dec.  I asked the IT manager if they were looking for people and on what teams.
He replied that they were looking for NE's to work a hell shift (12's, 4 on , 4 off, nights).
I got my resume together, started brushing up on my networking and interviewed for the job.
I have a co worker who is in the same situation and they won't look at him.
He is trying to get to the systems side of the house.
He is a MCSE for 2k3 and can't even get an interview.....There has to be an opening you can move into.
Start working towards your trade certs (juniper, cisco, microsoft, etc.).
It will be easier to get to an interview if you have the certs to back it up.
You already have your foot in the door.
IF you are good at what you do, management will have noticed.
They are the ones to talk to about moving up into an open slot.
If your companies turn over rate involves death... then you might want to put out a resume.TIPS on your resume..1.
Proof read.2.
Tailor it to each job you are applying for.3.
Write a separate and distinct objective statement and cover letter for each application.4.
No huge blocks of texts.
Make it easy on the eyes.5.
Take the skills listed in the job listing and make sure those words match in your resume, most HR departments do a key word search because they don't understand a tech resume.6.
Give a specific outline for your repsonibilites for each job... if they want to know more they will ask you in the interview.Once you get to the interview.. the job is yours to lose.. not yours to gain.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28375939</id>
	<title>certificated</title>
	<author>ooocmyooo</author>
	<datestamp>1245347700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hi,

I would propose that you do some certifications. this is less time consuming than full-time studies and if you search for a new employment you have a big +

you can even ask your company if they take over the costs, some of them like to educate their employees.

greetings,
vitaminx</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hi , I would propose that you do some certifications .
this is less time consuming than full-time studies and if you search for a new employment you have a big + you can even ask your company if they take over the costs , some of them like to educate their employees .
greetings , vitaminx</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hi,

I would propose that you do some certifications.
this is less time consuming than full-time studies and if you search for a new employment you have a big +

you can even ask your company if they take over the costs, some of them like to educate their employees.
greetings,
vitaminx</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369807</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>heychris</author>
	<datestamp>1245261300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Um.  If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook <i>is</i> your job.  Your work isn't being interrupted every five minutes, but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.</p></div><p>
To be fair, in a 200 person shop, he may also be expected to do sysadmin duties as well as helpdesk. It tends to get lumped together a lot. But even as a sysadmin, your job is ultimately to serve the company and it's clients, and in a small to midsize company, that means rebooting the boss' PC every now and then. Try to take pride in the fact that you tangibly made his life slightly better.
</p><p>
My role in a similarly sized company is basically sysadmin without the title, so I feel for you. There are days I'd love to play with the tech and roll out cool things, and it does get annoying to handle the level 2 stuff (fortunately, I have a part-time helpdesk guy for the basics).
</p><p>
One tip would be to get an intern, and dump some of the support tickets on them. Honestly, I'm not sure how viable a solution that is (I'd be eager to hear others experiences), because I don't know if a CS person will want an internship like that. But maybe someone from a business background would be intrigued; you likely touch every part of the business, and there could be appeal there.
</p><p>
If you're interested in web development, heck, just do it! Do your own site. Do your friends' sites, though set some clear boundaries. This will get you estimating experience, and you can play with whatever strikes your fancy. Then hit up some local small businesses and do their sites. Use that experience to get your next job. A CS Masters seems like overkill for web development. I can't say I know one, but then again, see my second paragraph.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:) I do know many web folk without masters, though.
</p><p>
The last thing I'd suggest is to get yourself involved on larger projects in the company. I don't always think to ask my helpdesk guy to help out, but I'm glad when he volunteers. This is a way to learn the tech, the business, and all those fuzzy skills that we don't think should matter but really, really do.
</p><p>
HTH,<br>
CC</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Um .
If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook is your job .
Your work is n't being interrupted every five minutes , but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes .
To be fair , in a 200 person shop , he may also be expected to do sysadmin duties as well as helpdesk .
It tends to get lumped together a lot .
But even as a sysadmin , your job is ultimately to serve the company and it 's clients , and in a small to midsize company , that means rebooting the boss ' PC every now and then .
Try to take pride in the fact that you tangibly made his life slightly better .
My role in a similarly sized company is basically sysadmin without the title , so I feel for you .
There are days I 'd love to play with the tech and roll out cool things , and it does get annoying to handle the level 2 stuff ( fortunately , I have a part-time helpdesk guy for the basics ) .
One tip would be to get an intern , and dump some of the support tickets on them .
Honestly , I 'm not sure how viable a solution that is ( I 'd be eager to hear others experiences ) , because I do n't know if a CS person will want an internship like that .
But maybe someone from a business background would be intrigued ; you likely touch every part of the business , and there could be appeal there .
If you 're interested in web development , heck , just do it !
Do your own site .
Do your friends ' sites , though set some clear boundaries .
This will get you estimating experience , and you can play with whatever strikes your fancy .
Then hit up some local small businesses and do their sites .
Use that experience to get your next job .
A CS Masters seems like overkill for web development .
I ca n't say I know one , but then again , see my second paragraph .
: ) I do know many web folk without masters , though .
The last thing I 'd suggest is to get yourself involved on larger projects in the company .
I do n't always think to ask my helpdesk guy to help out , but I 'm glad when he volunteers .
This is a way to learn the tech , the business , and all those fuzzy skills that we do n't think should matter but really , really do .
HTH , CC</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Um.
If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook is your job.
Your work isn't being interrupted every five minutes, but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.
To be fair, in a 200 person shop, he may also be expected to do sysadmin duties as well as helpdesk.
It tends to get lumped together a lot.
But even as a sysadmin, your job is ultimately to serve the company and it's clients, and in a small to midsize company, that means rebooting the boss' PC every now and then.
Try to take pride in the fact that you tangibly made his life slightly better.
My role in a similarly sized company is basically sysadmin without the title, so I feel for you.
There are days I'd love to play with the tech and roll out cool things, and it does get annoying to handle the level 2 stuff (fortunately, I have a part-time helpdesk guy for the basics).
One tip would be to get an intern, and dump some of the support tickets on them.
Honestly, I'm not sure how viable a solution that is (I'd be eager to hear others experiences), because I don't know if a CS person will want an internship like that.
But maybe someone from a business background would be intrigued; you likely touch every part of the business, and there could be appeal there.
If you're interested in web development, heck, just do it!
Do your own site.
Do your friends' sites, though set some clear boundaries.
This will get you estimating experience, and you can play with whatever strikes your fancy.
Then hit up some local small businesses and do their sites.
Use that experience to get your next job.
A CS Masters seems like overkill for web development.
I can't say I know one, but then again, see my second paragraph.
:) I do know many web folk without masters, though.
The last thing I'd suggest is to get yourself involved on larger projects in the company.
I don't always think to ask my helpdesk guy to help out, but I'm glad when he volunteers.
This is a way to learn the tech, the business, and all those fuzzy skills that we don't think should matter but really, really do.
HTH,
CC
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28413847</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>CAIMLAS</author>
	<datestamp>1245581040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe it's his job, maybe it isn't.</p><p>I was in a position a while back where I was hired as a "systems administrator". Both the job description and my understanding of the job was that I was supposed to operate primarily within the planning/making infrastructure work/keep working role. However, the reality was that I ended up reimaging workstations and fixing various user-caused problems more often than not. So it was "my job", but it was initially represented as a minor fraction of the work I'd be doing, not the primary role (which is more akin to "desktop support" and can be/should be mostly mitigated through proper sysadmin planning and control anyway). But you can't do that primary role if you're focused on user support.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe it 's his job , maybe it is n't.I was in a position a while back where I was hired as a " systems administrator " .
Both the job description and my understanding of the job was that I was supposed to operate primarily within the planning/making infrastructure work/keep working role .
However , the reality was that I ended up reimaging workstations and fixing various user-caused problems more often than not .
So it was " my job " , but it was initially represented as a minor fraction of the work I 'd be doing , not the primary role ( which is more akin to " desktop support " and can be/should be mostly mitigated through proper sysadmin planning and control anyway ) .
But you ca n't do that primary role if you 're focused on user support .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe it's his job, maybe it isn't.I was in a position a while back where I was hired as a "systems administrator".
Both the job description and my understanding of the job was that I was supposed to operate primarily within the planning/making infrastructure work/keep working role.
However, the reality was that I ended up reimaging workstations and fixing various user-caused problems more often than not.
So it was "my job", but it was initially represented as a minor fraction of the work I'd be doing, not the primary role (which is more akin to "desktop support" and can be/should be mostly mitigated through proper sysadmin planning and control anyway).
But you can't do that primary role if you're focused on user support.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370665</id>
	<title>move back home</title>
	<author>CALI-BANG</author>
	<datestamp>1245358200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"or would I better off moving back home, getting a mindless but low-stress job, and teaching myself technologies in my free time?"</p><p>how young are you?</p><p>if you still have time, move back home and as you said you can teach yourself some technologies and your free time.</p><p>sometimes the only way to progress is to move few steps backward.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" or would I better off moving back home , getting a mindless but low-stress job , and teaching myself technologies in my free time ?
" how young are you ? if you still have time , move back home and as you said you can teach yourself some technologies and your free time.sometimes the only way to progress is to move few steps backward .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"or would I better off moving back home, getting a mindless but low-stress job, and teaching myself technologies in my free time?
"how young are you?if you still have time, move back home and as you said you can teach yourself some technologies and your free time.sometimes the only way to progress is to move few steps backward.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369691</id>
	<title>first off...</title>
	<author>genner</author>
	<datestamp>1245260220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>First provide me with your employers contact information. Then  quit so you'll feel motivated to find somthing else.
I'll apply for your old job so you won't feel tempted to go back to it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>First provide me with your employers contact information .
Then quit so you 'll feel motivated to find somthing else .
I 'll apply for your old job so you wo n't feel tempted to go back to it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First provide me with your employers contact information.
Then  quit so you'll feel motivated to find somthing else.
I'll apply for your old job so you won't feel tempted to go back to it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371721</id>
	<title>Re:Distractions normal. Support is part of other j</title>
	<author>weicco</author>
	<datestamp>1245325740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It really depends who your customers are. I was once in a firm that made developing tools for programmers. I was working as a code monkey, sales support and support manager at the same time (small company) and it was actually quite a fun. I didn't have to explain how to turn on your monitor or anything <i>hard</i> like that. I answered questions like how to implement business logic above database layer and so on.</p><p>Lately things have changed. I switched job and now I'm answering questions like how to change the font size in Windows. And it sucks! I'm a goddamn coder and project manager, not our customer's internal support, but I can't just go and say that they (end-users) are morons, no matter how I wanted to.</p><p>So being a help desk isn't so bad if your customers aren't morons.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It really depends who your customers are .
I was once in a firm that made developing tools for programmers .
I was working as a code monkey , sales support and support manager at the same time ( small company ) and it was actually quite a fun .
I did n't have to explain how to turn on your monitor or anything hard like that .
I answered questions like how to implement business logic above database layer and so on.Lately things have changed .
I switched job and now I 'm answering questions like how to change the font size in Windows .
And it sucks !
I 'm a goddamn coder and project manager , not our customer 's internal support , but I ca n't just go and say that they ( end-users ) are morons , no matter how I wanted to.So being a help desk is n't so bad if your customers are n't morons .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It really depends who your customers are.
I was once in a firm that made developing tools for programmers.
I was working as a code monkey, sales support and support manager at the same time (small company) and it was actually quite a fun.
I didn't have to explain how to turn on your monitor or anything hard like that.
I answered questions like how to implement business logic above database layer and so on.Lately things have changed.
I switched job and now I'm answering questions like how to change the font size in Windows.
And it sucks!
I'm a goddamn coder and project manager, not our customer's internal support, but I can't just go and say that they (end-users) are morons, no matter how I wanted to.So being a help desk isn't so bad if your customers aren't morons.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369669</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28379057</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Tenant129</author>
	<datestamp>1245357540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>1 year in a helpdesk position is not an overly long time. I would suggest finding a different helpdesk position if you're not happy with that company, or as the original poster put it, get out of the helpdesk gig if it doesn't suit you. Last thing anyone wants is to have a legit problem and call a disgruntled helpdesk tech.</htmltext>
<tokenext>1 year in a helpdesk position is not an overly long time .
I would suggest finding a different helpdesk position if you 're not happy with that company , or as the original poster put it , get out of the helpdesk gig if it does n't suit you .
Last thing anyone wants is to have a legit problem and call a disgruntled helpdesk tech .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1 year in a helpdesk position is not an overly long time.
I would suggest finding a different helpdesk position if you're not happy with that company, or as the original poster put it, get out of the helpdesk gig if it doesn't suit you.
Last thing anyone wants is to have a legit problem and call a disgruntled helpdesk tech.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370847</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>mjwx</author>
	<datestamp>1245316500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Your post made me think.<br> <br>

I'm hating going to work each day for a little while now. It's not that I don't like it really, I like parts of my job, but I don't like dealing with the ingrates who look down on IT services. The good people understand that they cant do my job (and I cant do theirs) so we don't get in each others way, have respect for each other and just get along but there is about 30\% of my co-workers that make me dread getting up in the morning because they are just arseholes who refuse to listen and expect me to make everything better.<br> <br>

I work in a smaller company so I do T1/T2 support and 1/2 the sysadmin work (exchange server, firewall, AV and content management and so on) so I'm not simply a helldesk monkey. What I'd like to do is continue to move up along the sysadmin path, eliminate the T1 support and probably 1/2 of the T2 support. Preferably I'd like to concentrate in Linux/Unix environments (not Mac, that is one of my biggest nightmares in T1 support, Mac's tend to attract the most illiterate of users and the biggest superiority complexes). What advice to people have for continuing down this path? useful skills to pick up? Joining/attending a LUG? Any advice is welcome.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Your post made me think .
I 'm hating going to work each day for a little while now .
It 's not that I do n't like it really , I like parts of my job , but I do n't like dealing with the ingrates who look down on IT services .
The good people understand that they cant do my job ( and I cant do theirs ) so we do n't get in each others way , have respect for each other and just get along but there is about 30 \ % of my co-workers that make me dread getting up in the morning because they are just arseholes who refuse to listen and expect me to make everything better .
I work in a smaller company so I do T1/T2 support and 1/2 the sysadmin work ( exchange server , firewall , AV and content management and so on ) so I 'm not simply a helldesk monkey .
What I 'd like to do is continue to move up along the sysadmin path , eliminate the T1 support and probably 1/2 of the T2 support .
Preferably I 'd like to concentrate in Linux/Unix environments ( not Mac , that is one of my biggest nightmares in T1 support , Mac 's tend to attract the most illiterate of users and the biggest superiority complexes ) .
What advice to people have for continuing down this path ?
useful skills to pick up ?
Joining/attending a LUG ?
Any advice is welcome .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your post made me think.
I'm hating going to work each day for a little while now.
It's not that I don't like it really, I like parts of my job, but I don't like dealing with the ingrates who look down on IT services.
The good people understand that they cant do my job (and I cant do theirs) so we don't get in each others way, have respect for each other and just get along but there is about 30\% of my co-workers that make me dread getting up in the morning because they are just arseholes who refuse to listen and expect me to make everything better.
I work in a smaller company so I do T1/T2 support and 1/2 the sysadmin work (exchange server, firewall, AV and content management and so on) so I'm not simply a helldesk monkey.
What I'd like to do is continue to move up along the sysadmin path, eliminate the T1 support and probably 1/2 of the T2 support.
Preferably I'd like to concentrate in Linux/Unix environments (not Mac, that is one of my biggest nightmares in T1 support, Mac's tend to attract the most illiterate of users and the biggest superiority complexes).
What advice to people have for continuing down this path?
useful skills to pick up?
Joining/attending a LUG?
Any advice is welcome.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374283</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>mortiis</author>
	<datestamp>1245341100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If that's the case - find a bigger company where unjamming printers is a job for the PC techs or one of their monkeys, not the helpdeskers who deal with potentially revenue critical problems with their knowledge of the intertwining of different mission critical applications.</p><p>Naturally there are lesser problems and incidents too, which you delegate.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If that 's the case - find a bigger company where unjamming printers is a job for the PC techs or one of their monkeys , not the helpdeskers who deal with potentially revenue critical problems with their knowledge of the intertwining of different mission critical applications.Naturally there are lesser problems and incidents too , which you delegate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If that's the case - find a bigger company where unjamming printers is a job for the PC techs or one of their monkeys, not the helpdeskers who deal with potentially revenue critical problems with their knowledge of the intertwining of different mission critical applications.Naturally there are lesser problems and incidents too, which you delegate.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372369</id>
	<title>Re:Ugh</title>
	<author>DrWho520</author>
	<datestamp>1245331920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I might pick this spot to note that "losing a year to school" is not losing working experience.  I was credited with two years of experience when I entered my job (Software Engineer, so maybe it does not apply) with a M.S. degree.  It got me hired as a level 2 and I have two years on the promotion curve.<br> <br>

But yeah, go back to school and have sex with as many college chicks as possible.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I might pick this spot to note that " losing a year to school " is not losing working experience .
I was credited with two years of experience when I entered my job ( Software Engineer , so maybe it does not apply ) with a M.S .
degree. It got me hired as a level 2 and I have two years on the promotion curve .
But yeah , go back to school and have sex with as many college chicks as possible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I might pick this spot to note that "losing a year to school" is not losing working experience.
I was credited with two years of experience when I entered my job (Software Engineer, so maybe it does not apply) with a M.S.
degree.  It got me hired as a level 2 and I have two years on the promotion curve.
But yeah, go back to school and have sex with as many college chicks as possible.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369673</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372687</id>
	<title>write some code</title>
	<author>jbolden</author>
	<datestamp>1245333840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A 200 person company offers you flexibility in how things are done.  It will be a good place to get some development experience first hand.  Law firms are incredibly cheap when it comes to IT staff. What I would suggest is:</p><p>1)  Learn a language<br>2)  Start automating stuff, start having code in production that is yours.</p><p>Something like an Access / Filemaker pro database should be an easy first project.  Alternately something like VBA if they use lots of spreadsheets or some Perl to do automation of system administration tasks.</p><p>3)  Start making the systems more custom and more complex.  Start bringing in tools and services for the lawyers.  So that you are doing administration not just unjamming printers.  You'll need to work some extra hours in the beginning but very very quickly you are likely to start getting raises.  Even if that doesn't happen you will be able to talk about work you've done.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A 200 person company offers you flexibility in how things are done .
It will be a good place to get some development experience first hand .
Law firms are incredibly cheap when it comes to IT staff .
What I would suggest is : 1 ) Learn a language2 ) Start automating stuff , start having code in production that is yours.Something like an Access / Filemaker pro database should be an easy first project .
Alternately something like VBA if they use lots of spreadsheets or some Perl to do automation of system administration tasks.3 ) Start making the systems more custom and more complex .
Start bringing in tools and services for the lawyers .
So that you are doing administration not just unjamming printers .
You 'll need to work some extra hours in the beginning but very very quickly you are likely to start getting raises .
Even if that does n't happen you will be able to talk about work you 've done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A 200 person company offers you flexibility in how things are done.
It will be a good place to get some development experience first hand.
Law firms are incredibly cheap when it comes to IT staff.
What I would suggest is:1)  Learn a language2)  Start automating stuff, start having code in production that is yours.Something like an Access / Filemaker pro database should be an easy first project.
Alternately something like VBA if they use lots of spreadsheets or some Perl to do automation of system administration tasks.3)  Start making the systems more custom and more complex.
Start bringing in tools and services for the lawyers.
So that you are doing administration not just unjamming printers.
You'll need to work some extra hours in the beginning but very very quickly you are likely to start getting raises.
Even if that doesn't happen you will be able to talk about work you've done.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369621</id>
	<title>Helldesk...heh heh</title>
	<author>partowel</author>
	<datestamp>1245259740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My ignorant opinion is to get more education.  It's worth it, if you want it.</p><p>If full time isn't possible, do it correspondence/distance education.</p><p>Helldesk really is HELL.</p><p>It's amazing what padding your resume does.  You have to take the first step.</p><p>As for moving back home, I wouldn't do that.</p><p>But if you get along with your family, I guess its an option.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My ignorant opinion is to get more education .
It 's worth it , if you want it.If full time is n't possible , do it correspondence/distance education.Helldesk really is HELL.It 's amazing what padding your resume does .
You have to take the first step.As for moving back home , I would n't do that.But if you get along with your family , I guess its an option .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My ignorant opinion is to get more education.
It's worth it, if you want it.If full time isn't possible, do it correspondence/distance education.Helldesk really is HELL.It's amazing what padding your resume does.
You have to take the first step.As for moving back home, I wouldn't do that.But if you get along with your family, I guess its an option.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370753</id>
	<title>Learn to program, create software, release it..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245315720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you want to jump into web development, you might try developing and releasing some software as open source.  There are so many web frameworks out there now, that you could simply port a useful application/library from one framework to another, and you'll have something you can put your name on.  Better still is if you come up with something cool and original that everyone talks about - but you have to crawl before you can walk!   I like the Python world - I suggest Django as a good starting base because of its great documentation, but you may find you start leaning towards other systems.  Even if nobody uses your software except for you, it is something tangible that you can put on your CV when you go for a real job.</p><p>If you pick things up fast, try going for a niche market - why be yet another java chump (they all look alike) when you can be something special in your chosen market?  But the real key to developing your skills is to always play with different technology and techniques.. you just have to take an active interest in the stuff, you don't need to lock yourself away in a dark room.  I know people who set up Kerberos and LDAP servers for fun (and later profit), yet they still find the time to enjoy life with family and friends.</p><p>Go back to Uni to study something only if it interests you (and you can find a good course), not just because you feel you have to.  But then again, I don't know your market..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you want to jump into web development , you might try developing and releasing some software as open source .
There are so many web frameworks out there now , that you could simply port a useful application/library from one framework to another , and you 'll have something you can put your name on .
Better still is if you come up with something cool and original that everyone talks about - but you have to crawl before you can walk !
I like the Python world - I suggest Django as a good starting base because of its great documentation , but you may find you start leaning towards other systems .
Even if nobody uses your software except for you , it is something tangible that you can put on your CV when you go for a real job.If you pick things up fast , try going for a niche market - why be yet another java chump ( they all look alike ) when you can be something special in your chosen market ?
But the real key to developing your skills is to always play with different technology and techniques.. you just have to take an active interest in the stuff , you do n't need to lock yourself away in a dark room .
I know people who set up Kerberos and LDAP servers for fun ( and later profit ) , yet they still find the time to enjoy life with family and friends.Go back to Uni to study something only if it interests you ( and you can find a good course ) , not just because you feel you have to .
But then again , I do n't know your market. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you want to jump into web development, you might try developing and releasing some software as open source.
There are so many web frameworks out there now, that you could simply port a useful application/library from one framework to another, and you'll have something you can put your name on.
Better still is if you come up with something cool and original that everyone talks about - but you have to crawl before you can walk!
I like the Python world - I suggest Django as a good starting base because of its great documentation, but you may find you start leaning towards other systems.
Even if nobody uses your software except for you, it is something tangible that you can put on your CV when you go for a real job.If you pick things up fast, try going for a niche market - why be yet another java chump (they all look alike) when you can be something special in your chosen market?
But the real key to developing your skills is to always play with different technology and techniques.. you just have to take an active interest in the stuff, you don't need to lock yourself away in a dark room.
I know people who set up Kerberos and LDAP servers for fun (and later profit), yet they still find the time to enjoy life with family and friends.Go back to Uni to study something only if it interests you (and you can find a good course), not just because you feel you have to.
But then again, I don't know your market..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369917</id>
	<title>Be nice</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245262680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To people in other departments who get paid better and still do interesting stuff. Fix their stuff quickly and be helpful. If you make contacts like this who respect you and your work ability and ethics, then its highly possible one of them will let you know when something in their area is coming up. Being the team leader (or teams) preferred candidate is much more of an in than having umpteen qualifications in your CV but not much in the way of demonstrable people skills. Works for me and I have A+ (which I got \_after\_ I got into technical support).</p><p>Of course, if you have no skills AND no qualifications and are just likeable, then it probably wont help (much).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To people in other departments who get paid better and still do interesting stuff .
Fix their stuff quickly and be helpful .
If you make contacts like this who respect you and your work ability and ethics , then its highly possible one of them will let you know when something in their area is coming up .
Being the team leader ( or teams ) preferred candidate is much more of an in than having umpteen qualifications in your CV but not much in the way of demonstrable people skills .
Works for me and I have A + ( which I got \ _after \ _ I got into technical support ) .Of course , if you have no skills AND no qualifications and are just likeable , then it probably wont help ( much ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To people in other departments who get paid better and still do interesting stuff.
Fix their stuff quickly and be helpful.
If you make contacts like this who respect you and your work ability and ethics, then its highly possible one of them will let you know when something in their area is coming up.
Being the team leader (or teams) preferred candidate is much more of an in than having umpteen qualifications in your CV but not much in the way of demonstrable people skills.
Works for me and I have A+ (which I got \_after\_ I got into technical support).Of course, if you have no skills AND no qualifications and are just likeable, then it probably wont help (much).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373283</id>
	<title>Re:Take the shit to get the cream</title>
	<author>Defectuous</author>
	<datestamp>1245336900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I recant this AC's previous statement, <br> <br>

My advice to you is to show your potential. Just sitting there doing the same thing day in day out shows how much of a drone you are. I spent several years working as a support drone myself mainly due to the fact I was lazy and really had no ambition to move up.having a Kid makes you rethink everything. I show them what you can do and at every opportunity apply for those jobs as they come up. Do not sit content until your in the position of your chose or employment of your choosing.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I recant this AC 's previous statement , My advice to you is to show your potential .
Just sitting there doing the same thing day in day out shows how much of a drone you are .
I spent several years working as a support drone myself mainly due to the fact I was lazy and really had no ambition to move up.having a Kid makes you rethink everything .
I show them what you can do and at every opportunity apply for those jobs as they come up .
Do not sit content until your in the position of your chose or employment of your choosing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I recant this AC's previous statement,  

My advice to you is to show your potential.
Just sitting there doing the same thing day in day out shows how much of a drone you are.
I spent several years working as a support drone myself mainly due to the fact I was lazy and really had no ambition to move up.having a Kid makes you rethink everything.
I show them what you can do and at every opportunity apply for those jobs as they come up.
Do not sit content until your in the position of your chose or employment of your choosing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369581</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371609</id>
	<title>Re:What degree do you have?</title>
	<author>Bastardchyld</author>
	<datestamp>1245324480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I would disagree with getting his MSc, based on the information provided since at this point he has no experience to speak of.  All we know is that he has one year of helpdesk experience, now add that with a MSc and what is he really qualified for?  I would say he would be overqualified for the helpdesk (with a MSc comes the expectation of a certain amount of $$$), however in a traditional Sysadmin/Architecture all the way up to Director/VP role companies are looking for someone who has experience, an MSc with 1 year of helpdesk will not meet these expectations, so without knowing someone you won't get the job, and to be honest if you knew someone you would already have the job.<br>
<br>
Now the fact is that companies are hiring much to the contrary of what is being reported.  Many companies are using this as an opportunity to acquire extremely intelligent and motivated people, since there is less competition for a given candidate.  So if you do not have a BS I would recommend going for it IF you can go and maintain a job at the same time (because it is the experience you need).  If you cannot manage both, experience is much more important in this market, and at this point you should keep your job and maintain and grow your skillset, which does not prevent you from a little self-study.  Companies that are at that size are rife with opportunities for projects which would look very good on your resume, do everything with the goal of reducing expenitures and/or improving productivity in some sort of quantifiable way.  This is the way to get the attention of the boss (not whining about your current position).<br>
<br>
-matt</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would disagree with getting his MSc , based on the information provided since at this point he has no experience to speak of .
All we know is that he has one year of helpdesk experience , now add that with a MSc and what is he really qualified for ?
I would say he would be overqualified for the helpdesk ( with a MSc comes the expectation of a certain amount of $ $ $ ) , however in a traditional Sysadmin/Architecture all the way up to Director/VP role companies are looking for someone who has experience , an MSc with 1 year of helpdesk will not meet these expectations , so without knowing someone you wo n't get the job , and to be honest if you knew someone you would already have the job .
Now the fact is that companies are hiring much to the contrary of what is being reported .
Many companies are using this as an opportunity to acquire extremely intelligent and motivated people , since there is less competition for a given candidate .
So if you do not have a BS I would recommend going for it IF you can go and maintain a job at the same time ( because it is the experience you need ) .
If you can not manage both , experience is much more important in this market , and at this point you should keep your job and maintain and grow your skillset , which does not prevent you from a little self-study .
Companies that are at that size are rife with opportunities for projects which would look very good on your resume , do everything with the goal of reducing expenitures and/or improving productivity in some sort of quantifiable way .
This is the way to get the attention of the boss ( not whining about your current position ) .
-matt</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would disagree with getting his MSc, based on the information provided since at this point he has no experience to speak of.
All we know is that he has one year of helpdesk experience, now add that with a MSc and what is he really qualified for?
I would say he would be overqualified for the helpdesk (with a MSc comes the expectation of a certain amount of $$$), however in a traditional Sysadmin/Architecture all the way up to Director/VP role companies are looking for someone who has experience, an MSc with 1 year of helpdesk will not meet these expectations, so without knowing someone you won't get the job, and to be honest if you knew someone you would already have the job.
Now the fact is that companies are hiring much to the contrary of what is being reported.
Many companies are using this as an opportunity to acquire extremely intelligent and motivated people, since there is less competition for a given candidate.
So if you do not have a BS I would recommend going for it IF you can go and maintain a job at the same time (because it is the experience you need).
If you cannot manage both, experience is much more important in this market, and at this point you should keep your job and maintain and grow your skillset, which does not prevent you from a little self-study.
Companies that are at that size are rife with opportunities for projects which would look very good on your resume, do everything with the goal of reducing expenitures and/or improving productivity in some sort of quantifiable way.
This is the way to get the attention of the boss (not whining about your current position).
-matt</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369587</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370029</id>
	<title>get a job in a bigger company</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245263940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>get a job in a bigger company. i was doing phone tech support for a while, then got my ass an interview at apple, worked on my team for a year and then became the go to person for all of the arcane shit that our team has to deal with. before long i was promoted and now i don't have to deal with run of the day problems, i just send those to the normal it guys. oh and my salary tripled in about 2 years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>get a job in a bigger company .
i was doing phone tech support for a while , then got my ass an interview at apple , worked on my team for a year and then became the go to person for all of the arcane shit that our team has to deal with .
before long i was promoted and now i do n't have to deal with run of the day problems , i just send those to the normal it guys .
oh and my salary tripled in about 2 years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>get a job in a bigger company.
i was doing phone tech support for a while, then got my ass an interview at apple, worked on my team for a year and then became the go to person for all of the arcane shit that our team has to deal with.
before long i was promoted and now i don't have to deal with run of the day problems, i just send those to the normal it guys.
oh and my salary tripled in about 2 years.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373513</id>
	<title>Go For It</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245337860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is hope my friend.  I started out as a help desk monkey for a local hospital while working towards my degree.  I was in the same situation as you were, having to deal with stressful users and situations.  But you don't have to be stuck there forever.  An investment in your future is well worth the risk, both financially and emotionally.  Near the brink of my meltdown, I finally graduated and now have the qualifications to move forward.  I immediately applied and was offered a position as a software developer and finally got away from the users.  So now I interface with fairly intelligent people.  Go for it.  There is nothing to regret in furthering your education.  Don't let these people here say, "don't get an education, it's not worth it.  I didn't go to college, and I'm successful".  They may be an exception to the rule, so don't let that skew your thinking.  I have been in your situation, and have since moved on, and if I had to do it all over again, I would most definitely still go to school.  It's worth it....DO IT.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is hope my friend .
I started out as a help desk monkey for a local hospital while working towards my degree .
I was in the same situation as you were , having to deal with stressful users and situations .
But you do n't have to be stuck there forever .
An investment in your future is well worth the risk , both financially and emotionally .
Near the brink of my meltdown , I finally graduated and now have the qualifications to move forward .
I immediately applied and was offered a position as a software developer and finally got away from the users .
So now I interface with fairly intelligent people .
Go for it .
There is nothing to regret in furthering your education .
Do n't let these people here say , " do n't get an education , it 's not worth it .
I did n't go to college , and I 'm successful " .
They may be an exception to the rule , so do n't let that skew your thinking .
I have been in your situation , and have since moved on , and if I had to do it all over again , I would most definitely still go to school .
It 's worth it....DO IT .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is hope my friend.
I started out as a help desk monkey for a local hospital while working towards my degree.
I was in the same situation as you were, having to deal with stressful users and situations.
But you don't have to be stuck there forever.
An investment in your future is well worth the risk, both financially and emotionally.
Near the brink of my meltdown, I finally graduated and now have the qualifications to move forward.
I immediately applied and was offered a position as a software developer and finally got away from the users.
So now I interface with fairly intelligent people.
Go for it.
There is nothing to regret in furthering your education.
Don't let these people here say, "don't get an education, it's not worth it.
I didn't go to college, and I'm successful".
They may be an exception to the rule, so don't let that skew your thinking.
I have been in your situation, and have since moved on, and if I had to do it all over again, I would most definitely still go to school.
It's worth it....DO IT.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28375877</id>
	<title>Re:School is for people who can't read</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245347520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The biggest reason to dodge formal education in these types of areas is that the curiculum is set-in-stone well before you start the course</p></div><p>You seem to have some understanding of undergraduate education.  Taking a master's degree is generally a prolonged research project, not just a continuation of undergraduate classes.  The student will be the one setting the curriculum, in cooperation with his or her major professor.</p><p>It's okay to be anti-intellectual.  Just be honest about it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The biggest reason to dodge formal education in these types of areas is that the curiculum is set-in-stone well before you start the courseYou seem to have some understanding of undergraduate education .
Taking a master 's degree is generally a prolonged research project , not just a continuation of undergraduate classes .
The student will be the one setting the curriculum , in cooperation with his or her major professor.It 's okay to be anti-intellectual .
Just be honest about it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The biggest reason to dodge formal education in these types of areas is that the curiculum is set-in-stone well before you start the courseYou seem to have some understanding of undergraduate education.
Taking a master's degree is generally a prolonged research project, not just a continuation of undergraduate classes.
The student will be the one setting the curriculum, in cooperation with his or her major professor.It's okay to be anti-intellectual.
Just be honest about it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369783</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28376921</id>
	<title>IMO...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245351420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A couple semi-related thoughts/opinions here, I hope you find them relevant.</p><p>1. I've got a relative that held a series of trivial jobs and then landed a help-desk position.  Gave it up when he moved out-of-state and enrolled in a masters program.  Graduated with some decent credentials.  Now he's having issues landing a job because he's got a masters degree and only a short amount of time as a help-desk rep to refer to during interviews.  IMO, if you've already got experience and credentials, the masters degree can serve to augment.  If you don't have experience and credentials, the masters degree isn't going to do squat for you.</p><p>2. I was in IT for about 15 years and in a managerial role when I decided to go back and get my bachelors (yup, had no degree).  I didn't go to MIT, but it wasn't Buck's College and Waffle House either.  I was appalled at how easy and irrelevant the coursework was.  When hiring, I'd much prefer to get someone who has two years of experience than four years of college.</p><p>3. If you want to get into development, my recommendation would be to find a high-profile open-source project you're excited about and start to contribute.  If you can show experience and a genuine interest in development it will go a long way in an interview.  Who wouldn't want to talk to the candidate who - even though he'd been stuck in a helpdesk role - had been actively contributing to Tomcat/Drupal/Linux with bugfixes and commits?  I'd rather talk to that guy then the guy who left his job to go get a masters degree and hasn't been working in a year.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A couple semi-related thoughts/opinions here , I hope you find them relevant.1 .
I 've got a relative that held a series of trivial jobs and then landed a help-desk position .
Gave it up when he moved out-of-state and enrolled in a masters program .
Graduated with some decent credentials .
Now he 's having issues landing a job because he 's got a masters degree and only a short amount of time as a help-desk rep to refer to during interviews .
IMO , if you 've already got experience and credentials , the masters degree can serve to augment .
If you do n't have experience and credentials , the masters degree is n't going to do squat for you.2 .
I was in IT for about 15 years and in a managerial role when I decided to go back and get my bachelors ( yup , had no degree ) .
I did n't go to MIT , but it was n't Buck 's College and Waffle House either .
I was appalled at how easy and irrelevant the coursework was .
When hiring , I 'd much prefer to get someone who has two years of experience than four years of college.3 .
If you want to get into development , my recommendation would be to find a high-profile open-source project you 're excited about and start to contribute .
If you can show experience and a genuine interest in development it will go a long way in an interview .
Who would n't want to talk to the candidate who - even though he 'd been stuck in a helpdesk role - had been actively contributing to Tomcat/Drupal/Linux with bugfixes and commits ?
I 'd rather talk to that guy then the guy who left his job to go get a masters degree and has n't been working in a year .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A couple semi-related thoughts/opinions here, I hope you find them relevant.1.
I've got a relative that held a series of trivial jobs and then landed a help-desk position.
Gave it up when he moved out-of-state and enrolled in a masters program.
Graduated with some decent credentials.
Now he's having issues landing a job because he's got a masters degree and only a short amount of time as a help-desk rep to refer to during interviews.
IMO, if you've already got experience and credentials, the masters degree can serve to augment.
If you don't have experience and credentials, the masters degree isn't going to do squat for you.2.
I was in IT for about 15 years and in a managerial role when I decided to go back and get my bachelors (yup, had no degree).
I didn't go to MIT, but it wasn't Buck's College and Waffle House either.
I was appalled at how easy and irrelevant the coursework was.
When hiring, I'd much prefer to get someone who has two years of experience than four years of college.3.
If you want to get into development, my recommendation would be to find a high-profile open-source project you're excited about and start to contribute.
If you can show experience and a genuine interest in development it will go a long way in an interview.
Who wouldn't want to talk to the candidate who - even though he'd been stuck in a helpdesk role - had been actively contributing to Tomcat/Drupal/Linux with bugfixes and commits?
I'd rather talk to that guy then the guy who left his job to go get a masters degree and hasn't been working in a year.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28399107</id>
	<title>Hardcache</title>
	<author>hardcache</author>
	<datestamp>1245431400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I work too hard to deal with this stuff!! I work too hard!! I'm a Division Manager in charge of 49 people!! I drive a Dodge Stratus!!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I work too hard to deal with this stuff ! !
I work too hard ! !
I 'm a Division Manager in charge of 49 people ! !
I drive a Dodge Stratus !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work too hard to deal with this stuff!!
I work too hard!!
I'm a Division Manager in charge of 49 people!!
I drive a Dodge Stratus!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371257</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245320160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hi,</p><p>Having reached a similar point in my life as the writer, I've found your remark  very helpfull.</p><p>I already tried a lot of things in my career...  Personally, I like explaining, discovering things and being 'active' , that's why, after a number of years working as a programmer, I became educator (enjoyed it very much) but the low wage and   uncertainty of  high-school teaching made me leave for a steady job in IT Support.</p><p>The "Reason" why?  I thought of 'teaching' and 'IT support' as a 'service' to people -but something is different: in IT support , you're more an outsider the the caller's problem.  They'll probably get to know you, but you rarely get to know them.  You're job stays 'problem solving'.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; In teaching, you get more feedback and you'll  integrate more in a community.  Teaching is also a good way to get to know yourself, if you're willing to let your guard down.</p><p>That's the reason for me to go back to teaching, despite the wage and uncertainty.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hi,Having reached a similar point in my life as the writer , I 've found your remark very helpfull.I already tried a lot of things in my career... Personally , I like explaining , discovering things and being 'active ' , that 's why , after a number of years working as a programmer , I became educator ( enjoyed it very much ) but the low wage and uncertainty of high-school teaching made me leave for a steady job in IT Support.The " Reason " why ?
I thought of 'teaching ' and 'IT support ' as a 'service ' to people -but something is different : in IT support , you 're more an outsider the the caller 's problem .
They 'll probably get to know you , but you rarely get to know them .
You 're job stays 'problem solving' .
    In teaching , you get more feedback and you 'll integrate more in a community .
Teaching is also a good way to get to know yourself , if you 're willing to let your guard down.That 's the reason for me to go back to teaching , despite the wage and uncertainty .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hi,Having reached a similar point in my life as the writer, I've found your remark  very helpfull.I already tried a lot of things in my career...  Personally, I like explaining, discovering things and being 'active' , that's why, after a number of years working as a programmer, I became educator (enjoyed it very much) but the low wage and   uncertainty of  high-school teaching made me leave for a steady job in IT Support.The "Reason" why?
I thought of 'teaching' and 'IT support' as a 'service' to people -but something is different: in IT support , you're more an outsider the the caller's problem.
They'll probably get to know you, but you rarely get to know them.
You're job stays 'problem solving'.
    In teaching, you get more feedback and you'll  integrate more in a community.
Teaching is also a good way to get to know yourself, if you're willing to let your guard down.That's the reason for me to go back to teaching, despite the wage and uncertainty.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373147</id>
	<title>Re:Take the shit to get the cream</title>
	<author>SalaSSin</author>
	<datestamp>1245336420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>No they aren't.
<br> <br>
In most companies, they just ask a headhunter to find someone to become manager.
<br> <br>
Anyway, i was in the exact situation you are now, and i got out by never giving up on going to job interviews, not necessarily to directly get a job, but to test out what strategies in "marketing" yourself work best.
<br> <br>
I found that admitting your weak sides, focusing on the fact that you are willing to learn, and are already reading up on several topics (eg. security / programming perl / hacking windows,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...) and just be yourself works best.
<br> <br>
That's how in 4 years time i doubled my salary and am now at the same level as someone who has his masters degree.
<br> <br>
Just be sure to keep on trying, and keep reading up on everything you're interested in.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No they are n't .
In most companies , they just ask a headhunter to find someone to become manager .
Anyway , i was in the exact situation you are now , and i got out by never giving up on going to job interviews , not necessarily to directly get a job , but to test out what strategies in " marketing " yourself work best .
I found that admitting your weak sides , focusing on the fact that you are willing to learn , and are already reading up on several topics ( eg .
security / programming perl / hacking windows , ... ) and just be yourself works best .
That 's how in 4 years time i doubled my salary and am now at the same level as someone who has his masters degree .
Just be sure to keep on trying , and keep reading up on everything you 're interested in .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No they aren't.
In most companies, they just ask a headhunter to find someone to become manager.
Anyway, i was in the exact situation you are now, and i got out by never giving up on going to job interviews, not necessarily to directly get a job, but to test out what strategies in "marketing" yourself work best.
I found that admitting your weak sides, focusing on the fact that you are willing to learn, and are already reading up on several topics (eg.
security / programming perl / hacking windows, ...) and just be yourself works best.
That's how in 4 years time i doubled my salary and am now at the same level as someone who has his masters degree.
Just be sure to keep on trying, and keep reading up on everything you're interested in.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369581</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370195</id>
	<title>Depend on yourself and not the company</title>
	<author>therealjohndoe</author>
	<datestamp>1245266280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Coming from a stressful helpdesk background I would say first don't give up and move back home as going backwards is the worst thing you can do to your career. Secondly depending on which area of the world you live in I would say that University degrees mean's squat over industry certifications/experience although they can be helpful for the first graduate. When I was in your situation I basically took the little amount of money I earned and self studied for the Cisco and Microsoft exams while playing around with Linux. Why would you need someone to show you how to do something when it is written clearly in cheap enough books ??. For Cisco there are cheap lab kits on ebay and for Microsoft exams you can practice by building a complete setup inside the virtualisation software of your choice virtualbox, Vmware, Xen you name it.

You will find that once you become industry certified in a couple of technologies it greatly increases your chance of an interview as most companies require people with the same set of IT skills, once you get in the job you can then develop your talents, build contacts and decide on which technology you want to specialise in. Don't limit yourself by relying on the chance that you will get promoted in one company, take the active step and develop yourself so that many companies will actually consider you for an interview and want to hire you<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Coming from a stressful helpdesk background I would say first do n't give up and move back home as going backwards is the worst thing you can do to your career .
Secondly depending on which area of the world you live in I would say that University degrees mean 's squat over industry certifications/experience although they can be helpful for the first graduate .
When I was in your situation I basically took the little amount of money I earned and self studied for the Cisco and Microsoft exams while playing around with Linux .
Why would you need someone to show you how to do something when it is written clearly in cheap enough books ? ? .
For Cisco there are cheap lab kits on ebay and for Microsoft exams you can practice by building a complete setup inside the virtualisation software of your choice virtualbox , Vmware , Xen you name it .
You will find that once you become industry certified in a couple of technologies it greatly increases your chance of an interview as most companies require people with the same set of IT skills , once you get in the job you can then develop your talents , build contacts and decide on which technology you want to specialise in .
Do n't limit yourself by relying on the chance that you will get promoted in one company , take the active step and develop yourself so that many companies will actually consider you for an interview and want to hire you : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Coming from a stressful helpdesk background I would say first don't give up and move back home as going backwards is the worst thing you can do to your career.
Secondly depending on which area of the world you live in I would say that University degrees mean's squat over industry certifications/experience although they can be helpful for the first graduate.
When I was in your situation I basically took the little amount of money I earned and self studied for the Cisco and Microsoft exams while playing around with Linux.
Why would you need someone to show you how to do something when it is written clearly in cheap enough books ??.
For Cisco there are cheap lab kits on ebay and for Microsoft exams you can practice by building a complete setup inside the virtualisation software of your choice virtualbox, Vmware, Xen you name it.
You will find that once you become industry certified in a couple of technologies it greatly increases your chance of an interview as most companies require people with the same set of IT skills, once you get in the job you can then develop your talents, build contacts and decide on which technology you want to specialise in.
Don't limit yourself by relying on the chance that you will get promoted in one company, take the active step and develop yourself so that many companies will actually consider you for an interview and want to hire you :)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372615</id>
	<title>MSc is always a good idea</title>
	<author>prefec2</author>
	<datestamp>1245333540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You should not really bother if the loss of income over these 2-3 years is it worth to go the university. As I understand your post, your job sucks big time. So you want a better job. Most certainly you will get more money with a MSc than with a BSc but the money is not the main reason to educate yourself. If you become a software developer or even an software engineer you get a job with many different facets. You have definitely more options and this allows you to switch jobs if they become boring. And still you can use your new expertise and knowledge in different contexts. From my point: Software engineering is really nice, because every project is different. You have to work with different clients and learn their lines of thought. You also learn how their business works and how they think their business works which is not always the same.</p><p>I would say: if you could finance it, go the university and get an MSc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You should not really bother if the loss of income over these 2-3 years is it worth to go the university .
As I understand your post , your job sucks big time .
So you want a better job .
Most certainly you will get more money with a MSc than with a BSc but the money is not the main reason to educate yourself .
If you become a software developer or even an software engineer you get a job with many different facets .
You have definitely more options and this allows you to switch jobs if they become boring .
And still you can use your new expertise and knowledge in different contexts .
From my point : Software engineering is really nice , because every project is different .
You have to work with different clients and learn their lines of thought .
You also learn how their business works and how they think their business works which is not always the same.I would say : if you could finance it , go the university and get an MSc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You should not really bother if the loss of income over these 2-3 years is it worth to go the university.
As I understand your post, your job sucks big time.
So you want a better job.
Most certainly you will get more money with a MSc than with a BSc but the money is not the main reason to educate yourself.
If you become a software developer or even an software engineer you get a job with many different facets.
You have definitely more options and this allows you to switch jobs if they become boring.
And still you can use your new expertise and knowledge in different contexts.
From my point: Software engineering is really nice, because every project is different.
You have to work with different clients and learn their lines of thought.
You also learn how their business works and how they think their business works which is not always the same.I would say: if you could finance it, go the university and get an MSc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28390479</id>
	<title>Be a bigger fish in a smaller pond.</title>
	<author>jonadab</author>
	<datestamp>1245428520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In a company the size of the one you're in, the people who are hired to actually run the IT department, manage infrastructure, and so on, are people who have experience doing that sort of thing.  Your experience doing helpdesk stuff doesn't put your resume at the top of the stack.<br><br>One solution is to take an IT position with a smaller employer, the kind of employer that only *has* one or two people in the IT department, total, and can't afford a person just for nothing but helpdesk.  You'll still have to do helpdesk-type work, but you'll also have other duties, which will gain you other kinds of experience, which will build your resume.  Also, having a variety of duties will help you retain your sanity, since you won't be banging your head against the same stupid wall all the time.  If you do well in such a position, you could even end up being the head of the IT department when the former guy leaves, or, if the organization is small enough, you might actually hire in as the head of a one-man department, as I did several years ago.<br><br>There are employers out there who have a hard time filling IT positions, and in some cases they believe they would not be ABLE to hire an IT person at all, because they cannot afford to pay what a large corporation pays.  Small public libraries, that aren't part of a larger system or consortium, are one really good example of this; at least half of all library "system administrators" are librarians with normal user-level computer skills who got roped into looking after the computers because there was nobody else.  In a lot of cases it falls in the director's lap by default, and believe me, the director has Other Things To Do, so many of them would dearly love to hire an actual IT person.  I doubt very much if libraries are the only industry where this happens.<br><br>Budgets are tight right now, so you can't expect to waltz into the first place that strikes your fancy and have a job there by next Tuesday, but if you float your resume around enough places, you may be able to find a place that will take a chance on you.<br><br>Once you have experience doing the kind of work you want to do (even if it's not been your whole job), you can put that experience on your resume and then try to work your way into larger employers where you can maybe focus more on just the kind of work you like, and possibly make more money doing it.  Or you might find that you actually like the variety of duties and the atmosphere of a small employer; I have found it quite enjoyable myself.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In a company the size of the one you 're in , the people who are hired to actually run the IT department , manage infrastructure , and so on , are people who have experience doing that sort of thing .
Your experience doing helpdesk stuff does n't put your resume at the top of the stack.One solution is to take an IT position with a smaller employer , the kind of employer that only * has * one or two people in the IT department , total , and ca n't afford a person just for nothing but helpdesk .
You 'll still have to do helpdesk-type work , but you 'll also have other duties , which will gain you other kinds of experience , which will build your resume .
Also , having a variety of duties will help you retain your sanity , since you wo n't be banging your head against the same stupid wall all the time .
If you do well in such a position , you could even end up being the head of the IT department when the former guy leaves , or , if the organization is small enough , you might actually hire in as the head of a one-man department , as I did several years ago.There are employers out there who have a hard time filling IT positions , and in some cases they believe they would not be ABLE to hire an IT person at all , because they can not afford to pay what a large corporation pays .
Small public libraries , that are n't part of a larger system or consortium , are one really good example of this ; at least half of all library " system administrators " are librarians with normal user-level computer skills who got roped into looking after the computers because there was nobody else .
In a lot of cases it falls in the director 's lap by default , and believe me , the director has Other Things To Do , so many of them would dearly love to hire an actual IT person .
I doubt very much if libraries are the only industry where this happens.Budgets are tight right now , so you ca n't expect to waltz into the first place that strikes your fancy and have a job there by next Tuesday , but if you float your resume around enough places , you may be able to find a place that will take a chance on you.Once you have experience doing the kind of work you want to do ( even if it 's not been your whole job ) , you can put that experience on your resume and then try to work your way into larger employers where you can maybe focus more on just the kind of work you like , and possibly make more money doing it .
Or you might find that you actually like the variety of duties and the atmosphere of a small employer ; I have found it quite enjoyable myself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In a company the size of the one you're in, the people who are hired to actually run the IT department, manage infrastructure, and so on, are people who have experience doing that sort of thing.
Your experience doing helpdesk stuff doesn't put your resume at the top of the stack.One solution is to take an IT position with a smaller employer, the kind of employer that only *has* one or two people in the IT department, total, and can't afford a person just for nothing but helpdesk.
You'll still have to do helpdesk-type work, but you'll also have other duties, which will gain you other kinds of experience, which will build your resume.
Also, having a variety of duties will help you retain your sanity, since you won't be banging your head against the same stupid wall all the time.
If you do well in such a position, you could even end up being the head of the IT department when the former guy leaves, or, if the organization is small enough, you might actually hire in as the head of a one-man department, as I did several years ago.There are employers out there who have a hard time filling IT positions, and in some cases they believe they would not be ABLE to hire an IT person at all, because they cannot afford to pay what a large corporation pays.
Small public libraries, that aren't part of a larger system or consortium, are one really good example of this; at least half of all library "system administrators" are librarians with normal user-level computer skills who got roped into looking after the computers because there was nobody else.
In a lot of cases it falls in the director's lap by default, and believe me, the director has Other Things To Do, so many of them would dearly love to hire an actual IT person.
I doubt very much if libraries are the only industry where this happens.Budgets are tight right now, so you can't expect to waltz into the first place that strikes your fancy and have a job there by next Tuesday, but if you float your resume around enough places, you may be able to find a place that will take a chance on you.Once you have experience doing the kind of work you want to do (even if it's not been your whole job), you can put that experience on your resume and then try to work your way into larger employers where you can maybe focus more on just the kind of work you like, and possibly make more money doing it.
Or you might find that you actually like the variety of duties and the atmosphere of a small employer; I have found it quite enjoyable myself.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370139</id>
	<title>Personal experience</title>
	<author>l0b0</author>
	<datestamp>1245265260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Having received my MSc in 2004, I'd say it's definitely worth it. Just watch it when getting a job afterward - There are places where you'd be doing the programming equivalent of unjamming printers (e.g., debugging business rule setups, running SQL queries that others created). Should probably note that I got the degree for almost no money (yay Norway), that I worked two years IT support at the university and loved it (university staff / students normally don't need help with jammed printers), and that I'm starting a PhD to get to the really interesting problems.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Having received my MSc in 2004 , I 'd say it 's definitely worth it .
Just watch it when getting a job afterward - There are places where you 'd be doing the programming equivalent of unjamming printers ( e.g. , debugging business rule setups , running SQL queries that others created ) .
Should probably note that I got the degree for almost no money ( yay Norway ) , that I worked two years IT support at the university and loved it ( university staff / students normally do n't need help with jammed printers ) , and that I 'm starting a PhD to get to the really interesting problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having received my MSc in 2004, I'd say it's definitely worth it.
Just watch it when getting a job afterward - There are places where you'd be doing the programming equivalent of unjamming printers (e.g., debugging business rule setups, running SQL queries that others created).
Should probably note that I got the degree for almost no money (yay Norway), that I worked two years IT support at the university and loved it (university staff / students normally don't need help with jammed printers), and that I'm starting a PhD to get to the really interesting problems.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369769</id>
	<title>Helldesk forever</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245261000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is difficult to get out of the help desk at any organization.  One person I know immediately shifted to night shift so he could take on line courses.  Once he got his CCNA he moved into another role.  But if you are on during prime shift and not motivated to train up in another area on your own.  You will be there until your job is moved off shore or you quit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is difficult to get out of the help desk at any organization .
One person I know immediately shifted to night shift so he could take on line courses .
Once he got his CCNA he moved into another role .
But if you are on during prime shift and not motivated to train up in another area on your own .
You will be there until your job is moved off shore or you quit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is difficult to get out of the help desk at any organization.
One person I know immediately shifted to night shift so he could take on line courses.
Once he got his CCNA he moved into another role.
But if you are on during prime shift and not motivated to train up in another area on your own.
You will be there until your job is moved off shore or you quit.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369847</id>
	<title>Re:Funny Helldesk story</title>
	<author>pilgrim23</author>
	<datestamp>1245261720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Companies that have programmers or other techs who learned all their people skills from interaction with a pet gerbil are not really clear on the concept of staying in business. I work in tech support and that friends is a person oriented skill. You can have the gosh gee whiz tech creds out the wazoo and still piss off a customer. They don't care how many<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET routines you have written they are interested in getting their screen un-stuck and back to their JOB. Talk down to your co-workers NOT the person who ultimately  pays for your play-toys</htmltext>
<tokenext>Companies that have programmers or other techs who learned all their people skills from interaction with a pet gerbil are not really clear on the concept of staying in business .
I work in tech support and that friends is a person oriented skill .
You can have the gosh gee whiz tech creds out the wazoo and still piss off a customer .
They do n't care how many .NET routines you have written they are interested in getting their screen un-stuck and back to their JOB .
Talk down to your co-workers NOT the person who ultimately pays for your play-toys</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Companies that have programmers or other techs who learned all their people skills from interaction with a pet gerbil are not really clear on the concept of staying in business.
I work in tech support and that friends is a person oriented skill.
You can have the gosh gee whiz tech creds out the wazoo and still piss off a customer.
They don't care how many .NET routines you have written they are interested in getting their screen un-stuck and back to their JOB.
Talk down to your co-workers NOT the person who ultimately  pays for your play-toys</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369685</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369755</id>
	<title>Go small</title>
	<author>peipas</author>
	<datestamp>1245260820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You might consider pursuing a job at a smaller organization where the IT department consists of you, possibly a non-profit.  Compensation will be lower but there are often other "benefits" of working non-profit, such as reduced hours or a rewarding culture.  These organizations are looking for somebody with experience but realize they can't afford the most experience.  You'll get a lot of experience with a wide range of administration, preferably including managing a few servers, although you will still be working with the end users.  Variety is wonderful, though.</p><p>Due to the current job market this plan may still leave you in your current position for a while, but that could be a good thing for your marketability anyway, as it's good not to look too fickle when an employer doesn't want to have to hire a replacement for you again in another 12-18 months.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You might consider pursuing a job at a smaller organization where the IT department consists of you , possibly a non-profit .
Compensation will be lower but there are often other " benefits " of working non-profit , such as reduced hours or a rewarding culture .
These organizations are looking for somebody with experience but realize they ca n't afford the most experience .
You 'll get a lot of experience with a wide range of administration , preferably including managing a few servers , although you will still be working with the end users .
Variety is wonderful , though.Due to the current job market this plan may still leave you in your current position for a while , but that could be a good thing for your marketability anyway , as it 's good not to look too fickle when an employer does n't want to have to hire a replacement for you again in another 12-18 months .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You might consider pursuing a job at a smaller organization where the IT department consists of you, possibly a non-profit.
Compensation will be lower but there are often other "benefits" of working non-profit, such as reduced hours or a rewarding culture.
These organizations are looking for somebody with experience but realize they can't afford the most experience.
You'll get a lot of experience with a wide range of administration, preferably including managing a few servers, although you will still be working with the end users.
Variety is wonderful, though.Due to the current job market this plan may still leave you in your current position for a while, but that could be a good thing for your marketability anyway, as it's good not to look too fickle when an employer doesn't want to have to hire a replacement for you again in another 12-18 months.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28376273</id>
	<title>Re:Fuck You</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245348900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yours is exactly the type of attitude that makes the job miserable for the people on the "HELL DESK".<br>.<br>The accepted business model for computer support does not fit your expectation. If you want to see change, you need to convince the people that pay for the service that a change makes sense.<br>.<br>My guess is that you are a fairly competent computer user. This indicates that your problems you face are not likely to be trivial. Your competence level in computing means that you are likely to fix the trivial/obvious problems yourself.<br>.<br>You seem to expect entry level people (little training, little experience, or maybe not so bright, who are paid on par with janitors) to be able to come up with the fix for the non-trivial problem that you most likely already tried to fix yourself (and failed). And, you expect this problem to be solved immediately.<br>.<br>I don't see this as a reasonable expectation.<br>.<br>Heres the obligatory crappy car analogy:<br>.<br>You drive a car, and the check engine light comes on. You know enough about your car to check under the hood for anything obviously wrong (low engine oil, etc.). You don't find anything obvious, so you call your corner mechanics garage.<br>.<br>The person that answers the phone asks you to check the oil, and look for any wires, hoses, or tubes, that may have come loose. You respond saying that you already did. Nothing obvious appears wrong. You have probably just exhausted the mechanical knowledge of this person.<br>.<br>He/she tells you to bring the car in, and they will have a knowledgeable mechanic look at it as soon as they can, but there are three cars ahead of yours.<br>.<br>Your attitude seems to be that you would expect whoever answers the phone at the corner garage to diagnose the problem immediately, and correctly, even though they are not knowledgeable mechanics. (If they were knowledgeable mechanics, their talents would not be wasted on answering the phone, they would be fixing cars, as it pays better.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yours is exactly the type of attitude that makes the job miserable for the people on the " HELL DESK " ..The accepted business model for computer support does not fit your expectation .
If you want to see change , you need to convince the people that pay for the service that a change makes sense..My guess is that you are a fairly competent computer user .
This indicates that your problems you face are not likely to be trivial .
Your competence level in computing means that you are likely to fix the trivial/obvious problems yourself..You seem to expect entry level people ( little training , little experience , or maybe not so bright , who are paid on par with janitors ) to be able to come up with the fix for the non-trivial problem that you most likely already tried to fix yourself ( and failed ) .
And , you expect this problem to be solved immediately..I do n't see this as a reasonable expectation..Heres the obligatory crappy car analogy : .You drive a car , and the check engine light comes on .
You know enough about your car to check under the hood for anything obviously wrong ( low engine oil , etc. ) .
You do n't find anything obvious , so you call your corner mechanics garage..The person that answers the phone asks you to check the oil , and look for any wires , hoses , or tubes , that may have come loose .
You respond saying that you already did .
Nothing obvious appears wrong .
You have probably just exhausted the mechanical knowledge of this person..He/she tells you to bring the car in , and they will have a knowledgeable mechanic look at it as soon as they can , but there are three cars ahead of yours..Your attitude seems to be that you would expect whoever answers the phone at the corner garage to diagnose the problem immediately , and correctly , even though they are not knowledgeable mechanics .
( If they were knowledgeable mechanics , their talents would not be wasted on answering the phone , they would be fixing cars , as it pays better .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yours is exactly the type of attitude that makes the job miserable for the people on the "HELL DESK"..The accepted business model for computer support does not fit your expectation.
If you want to see change, you need to convince the people that pay for the service that a change makes sense..My guess is that you are a fairly competent computer user.
This indicates that your problems you face are not likely to be trivial.
Your competence level in computing means that you are likely to fix the trivial/obvious problems yourself..You seem to expect entry level people (little training, little experience, or maybe not so bright, who are paid on par with janitors) to be able to come up with the fix for the non-trivial problem that you most likely already tried to fix yourself (and failed).
And, you expect this problem to be solved immediately..I don't see this as a reasonable expectation..Heres the obligatory crappy car analogy:.You drive a car, and the check engine light comes on.
You know enough about your car to check under the hood for anything obviously wrong (low engine oil, etc.).
You don't find anything obvious, so you call your corner mechanics garage..The person that answers the phone asks you to check the oil, and look for any wires, hoses, or tubes, that may have come loose.
You respond saying that you already did.
Nothing obvious appears wrong.
You have probably just exhausted the mechanical knowledge of this person..He/she tells you to bring the car in, and they will have a knowledgeable mechanic look at it as soon as they can, but there are three cars ahead of yours..Your attitude seems to be that you would expect whoever answers the phone at the corner garage to diagnose the problem immediately, and correctly, even though they are not knowledgeable mechanics.
(If they were knowledgeable mechanics, their talents would not be wasted on answering the phone, they would be fixing cars, as it pays better.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369855</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370693</id>
	<title>Yes, I do as it happens</title>
	<author>jimicus</author>
	<datestamp>1245358500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It may well be too late with your current employer - mainly because as far as they're concerned, you are and always will be the person on the helpdesk.</p><p>But in my own experience, people coming up from the helpdesk don't just walk into work one day and find themselves magically off the helpdesk team.  You've got to show an active interest in the other parts of the department - well, the parts that interest you, at any rate.  Get to know some of the people there, ask them about how a particular thing works.  Everyone likes it when people take an interest in them.</p><p>It doesn't even need to be work-related.  If you ever go out as a department for team building/social events, spend some time talking to the line manager of the team you want to be in.</p><p>Nobody ever got off the helpdesk by working long hours and showing a great deal of enthusiasm for the helpdesk.  Plenty, however, have got off the helpdesk by showing a great deal of enthusiasm for some other aspect of the IT department.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It may well be too late with your current employer - mainly because as far as they 're concerned , you are and always will be the person on the helpdesk.But in my own experience , people coming up from the helpdesk do n't just walk into work one day and find themselves magically off the helpdesk team .
You 've got to show an active interest in the other parts of the department - well , the parts that interest you , at any rate .
Get to know some of the people there , ask them about how a particular thing works .
Everyone likes it when people take an interest in them.It does n't even need to be work-related .
If you ever go out as a department for team building/social events , spend some time talking to the line manager of the team you want to be in.Nobody ever got off the helpdesk by working long hours and showing a great deal of enthusiasm for the helpdesk .
Plenty , however , have got off the helpdesk by showing a great deal of enthusiasm for some other aspect of the IT department .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It may well be too late with your current employer - mainly because as far as they're concerned, you are and always will be the person on the helpdesk.But in my own experience, people coming up from the helpdesk don't just walk into work one day and find themselves magically off the helpdesk team.
You've got to show an active interest in the other parts of the department - well, the parts that interest you, at any rate.
Get to know some of the people there, ask them about how a particular thing works.
Everyone likes it when people take an interest in them.It doesn't even need to be work-related.
If you ever go out as a department for team building/social events, spend some time talking to the line manager of the team you want to be in.Nobody ever got off the helpdesk by working long hours and showing a great deal of enthusiasm for the helpdesk.
Plenty, however, have got off the helpdesk by showing a great deal of enthusiasm for some other aspect of the IT department.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372819</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>coreb</author>
	<datestamp>1245334560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Thank you for this.  A few phrases of this post are going to be on my wall by this afternoon.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Thank you for this .
A few phrases of this post are going to be on my wall by this afternoon .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thank you for this.
A few phrases of this post are going to be on my wall by this afternoon.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370785</id>
	<title>Find a company that will give you opportunities...</title>
	<author>Eskarel</author>
	<datestamp>1245315960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are a number of things which will give you a leg up. Education, experience, and networking(the people kind not the cable kind) will all give you a leg up. Doing volunteer work(supporting your local non profit, doing open source coding, etc), getting a university education(and more importantly getting one of those student only university jobs), joining the right kind of local organizations all will help you.</p><p>However, the best way to progress is to work for someone who will give you a chance to do more and to prove to them that you're worth that chance. Small companies tend to be the best for this sort of thing. Generally they pay poorly and work you too hard, but because most of the time they're understaffed, you get to wear a lot of hats and do a lot of things which, if you're clever, can give you one hell of a resume.</p><p>The days of making 80 grand right out of the gate are long gone in most IT sectors, and the few that are left are flavor of the month type things which if you're not careful will kill your career dead in a few years when they go out of fashion or there isn't a shortage any more. IT jobs are just like every other job, you've got to work hard, and get lucky.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are a number of things which will give you a leg up .
Education , experience , and networking ( the people kind not the cable kind ) will all give you a leg up .
Doing volunteer work ( supporting your local non profit , doing open source coding , etc ) , getting a university education ( and more importantly getting one of those student only university jobs ) , joining the right kind of local organizations all will help you.However , the best way to progress is to work for someone who will give you a chance to do more and to prove to them that you 're worth that chance .
Small companies tend to be the best for this sort of thing .
Generally they pay poorly and work you too hard , but because most of the time they 're understaffed , you get to wear a lot of hats and do a lot of things which , if you 're clever , can give you one hell of a resume.The days of making 80 grand right out of the gate are long gone in most IT sectors , and the few that are left are flavor of the month type things which if you 're not careful will kill your career dead in a few years when they go out of fashion or there is n't a shortage any more .
IT jobs are just like every other job , you 've got to work hard , and get lucky .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are a number of things which will give you a leg up.
Education, experience, and networking(the people kind not the cable kind) will all give you a leg up.
Doing volunteer work(supporting your local non profit, doing open source coding, etc), getting a university education(and more importantly getting one of those student only university jobs), joining the right kind of local organizations all will help you.However, the best way to progress is to work for someone who will give you a chance to do more and to prove to them that you're worth that chance.
Small companies tend to be the best for this sort of thing.
Generally they pay poorly and work you too hard, but because most of the time they're understaffed, you get to wear a lot of hats and do a lot of things which, if you're clever, can give you one hell of a resume.The days of making 80 grand right out of the gate are long gone in most IT sectors, and the few that are left are flavor of the month type things which if you're not careful will kill your career dead in a few years when they go out of fashion or there isn't a shortage any more.
IT jobs are just like every other job, you've got to work hard, and get lucky.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372407</id>
	<title>Re:School is for people who can't read</title>
	<author>geminidomino</author>
	<datestamp>1245332160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I haven't seen the revolt against the Church-Turing thesis, or Rice's Theorem, or against search trees (in particular B-trees on the disk for file systems and DB indexes), or against regexp lexers and LALR(1) parsers, or against relational algebra, or...</p></div><p>The pigeon-hole principle was declared overly discriminatory and has been outlawed in a ruling based on anti-slumlord law.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have n't seen the revolt against the Church-Turing thesis , or Rice 's Theorem , or against search trees ( in particular B-trees on the disk for file systems and DB indexes ) , or against regexp lexers and LALR ( 1 ) parsers , or against relational algebra , or...The pigeon-hole principle was declared overly discriminatory and has been outlawed in a ruling based on anti-slumlord law .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I haven't seen the revolt against the Church-Turing thesis, or Rice's Theorem, or against search trees (in particular B-trees on the disk for file systems and DB indexes), or against regexp lexers and LALR(1) parsers, or against relational algebra, or...The pigeon-hole principle was declared overly discriminatory and has been outlawed in a ruling based on anti-slumlord law.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371817</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374653</id>
	<title>Re:What degree do you have?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245342600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>10 years ago: <br>Kid: "Hi, I want a  job writing software!"<br>Manager: "Tell me what you know about writing software." <br>Kid: "I saw some C++ code in a textbook once!"  <br>Manager: "Will you accept $80,000 and start tomorrow?" <br> <br>Today: <br>Applicant: "Hi, I want a job writing software!"<br>Manager: "Tell me what you know about writing software."  <br>Applicant: "I have a bachelor of science degree in math with a minor in computer science.   I've written 10,000 lines of code in widespread use in an open source project.  I've written my own cell phone operating system.  I've written 4 applications in the iPhone store.  I'm a contributor on the specifications for C++0x." <br>Manager: "We're sorry, you are woefully underqualified for this junior position.  We're looking for someone with ten times as much experience and a master's degree, and we will offer them $35,000 per year."  <br> <br>
I'm genuinely happy for you and your success.  But I'm guessing you got your start during the dot com boom or something similar.  I love developing software, I can't believe I get paid money to do something this interesting.   But the opportunities for a self taught person to break in to the industry, as far as I can tell, are tremendously fewer now than in the past.</htmltext>
<tokenext>10 years ago : Kid : " Hi , I want a job writing software !
" Manager : " Tell me what you know about writing software .
" Kid : " I saw some C + + code in a textbook once !
" Manager : " Will you accept $ 80,000 and start tomorrow ?
" Today : Applicant : " Hi , I want a job writing software !
" Manager : " Tell me what you know about writing software .
" Applicant : " I have a bachelor of science degree in math with a minor in computer science .
I 've written 10,000 lines of code in widespread use in an open source project .
I 've written my own cell phone operating system .
I 've written 4 applications in the iPhone store .
I 'm a contributor on the specifications for C + + 0x .
" Manager : " We 're sorry , you are woefully underqualified for this junior position .
We 're looking for someone with ten times as much experience and a master 's degree , and we will offer them $ 35,000 per year .
" I 'm genuinely happy for you and your success .
But I 'm guessing you got your start during the dot com boom or something similar .
I love developing software , I ca n't believe I get paid money to do something this interesting .
But the opportunities for a self taught person to break in to the industry , as far as I can tell , are tremendously fewer now than in the past .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>10 years ago: Kid: "Hi, I want a  job writing software!
"Manager: "Tell me what you know about writing software.
" Kid: "I saw some C++ code in a textbook once!
"  Manager: "Will you accept $80,000 and start tomorrow?
"  Today: Applicant: "Hi, I want a job writing software!
"Manager: "Tell me what you know about writing software.
"  Applicant: "I have a bachelor of science degree in math with a minor in computer science.
I've written 10,000 lines of code in widespread use in an open source project.
I've written my own cell phone operating system.
I've written 4 applications in the iPhone store.
I'm a contributor on the specifications for C++0x.
" Manager: "We're sorry, you are woefully underqualified for this junior position.
We're looking for someone with ten times as much experience and a master's degree, and we will offer them $35,000 per year.
"   
I'm genuinely happy for you and your success.
But I'm guessing you got your start during the dot com boom or something similar.
I love developing software, I can't believe I get paid money to do something this interesting.
But the opportunities for a self taught person to break in to the industry, as far as I can tell, are tremendously fewer now than in the past.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373883</id>
	<title>Certification is the fastest path</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245339420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Depending on the market you're in, the MS certifications can go a long way. The best are the C# (Web or WinForms / WPF) or SQL. There is still a huge market for<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET and database development. SharePoint is becoming huge as well, so you may consider that cert. This is the way I went from making 56k to 98k in one and a half years (although the market was stronger when I started). FYI, I already had my BS in CS. I am now working on my masters in a business related subject (not MBA).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Depending on the market you 're in , the MS certifications can go a long way .
The best are the C # ( Web or WinForms / WPF ) or SQL .
There is still a huge market for .NET and database development .
SharePoint is becoming huge as well , so you may consider that cert .
This is the way I went from making 56k to 98k in one and a half years ( although the market was stronger when I started ) .
FYI , I already had my BS in CS .
I am now working on my masters in a business related subject ( not MBA ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Depending on the market you're in, the MS certifications can go a long way.
The best are the C# (Web or WinForms / WPF) or SQL.
There is still a huge market for .NET and database development.
SharePoint is becoming huge as well, so you may consider that cert.
This is the way I went from making 56k to 98k in one and a half years (although the market was stronger when I started).
FYI, I already had my BS in CS.
I am now working on my masters in a business related subject (not MBA).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369581</id>
	<title>Take the shit to get the cream</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245259380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Stay with it , its the people who who are longest in the job that become managers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Stay with it , its the people who who are longest in the job that become managers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stay with it , its the people who who are longest in the job that become managers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369921</id>
	<title>You've already quit, so why ask slashdot?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245262740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously?  Only one year?  I was "helldesking" for a solid 7+ years at various companies.  This is what I learned:</p><p>Learn some f*ing patience.  Yeah, talking to you, you pansy.  Can't cut the front lines?  Not cut out for IT.  'Nuff said.</p><p>Consider alcoholism or Tai Chi - it makes your friends much more interesting or it beats throwing a brick at a wall every night. Don't mingle both together, that is an OR and not an AND.  At least exercise and eat properly; minimize caffeine intake to one a day.</p><p>Diversify your skill set. Any monkey can answer phones and tell customers to 'shut up and reboot'. It takes a pro to talk down an angry customer with soft skills and convince them that it's not a big deal while frantically googling for answers.</p><p>Get ITIL (foundations v3) certified. It seems to be the buzzword lately on resumes, or at least it was the last time I was job hunting.</p><p>Awe screw it.  May as well change your major to business management with technology background or somethingrather.  Watch Byte Club http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-470377682871831148 at least ten or so times.  I've seen too many business management people that think they can use a mouse and keyboard effectively to get what the think is 'work' done.</p><p>As for me?  I learned OS/2.  Yes, go ahead and laugh.  Laugh all you want.  But remember this: helpdesks are there to weed out the weak and feeble .</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously ?
Only one year ?
I was " helldesking " for a solid 7 + years at various companies .
This is what I learned : Learn some f * ing patience .
Yeah , talking to you , you pansy .
Ca n't cut the front lines ?
Not cut out for IT .
'Nuff said.Consider alcoholism or Tai Chi - it makes your friends much more interesting or it beats throwing a brick at a wall every night .
Do n't mingle both together , that is an OR and not an AND .
At least exercise and eat properly ; minimize caffeine intake to one a day.Diversify your skill set .
Any monkey can answer phones and tell customers to 'shut up and reboot' .
It takes a pro to talk down an angry customer with soft skills and convince them that it 's not a big deal while frantically googling for answers.Get ITIL ( foundations v3 ) certified .
It seems to be the buzzword lately on resumes , or at least it was the last time I was job hunting.Awe screw it .
May as well change your major to business management with technology background or somethingrather .
Watch Byte Club http : //video.google.com/videoplay ? docid = -470377682871831148 at least ten or so times .
I 've seen too many business management people that think they can use a mouse and keyboard effectively to get what the think is 'work ' done.As for me ?
I learned OS/2 .
Yes , go ahead and laugh .
Laugh all you want .
But remember this : helpdesks are there to weed out the weak and feeble .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously?
Only one year?
I was "helldesking" for a solid 7+ years at various companies.
This is what I learned:Learn some f*ing patience.
Yeah, talking to you, you pansy.
Can't cut the front lines?
Not cut out for IT.
'Nuff said.Consider alcoholism or Tai Chi - it makes your friends much more interesting or it beats throwing a brick at a wall every night.
Don't mingle both together, that is an OR and not an AND.
At least exercise and eat properly; minimize caffeine intake to one a day.Diversify your skill set.
Any monkey can answer phones and tell customers to 'shut up and reboot'.
It takes a pro to talk down an angry customer with soft skills and convince them that it's not a big deal while frantically googling for answers.Get ITIL (foundations v3) certified.
It seems to be the buzzword lately on resumes, or at least it was the last time I was job hunting.Awe screw it.
May as well change your major to business management with technology background or somethingrather.
Watch Byte Club http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-470377682871831148 at least ten or so times.
I've seen too many business management people that think they can use a mouse and keyboard effectively to get what the think is 'work' done.As for me?
I learned OS/2.
Yes, go ahead and laugh.
Laugh all you want.
But remember this: helpdesks are there to weed out the weak and feeble .</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370057</id>
	<title>Monkey Graduation</title>
	<author>vision2006</author>
	<datestamp>1245264300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I personally would be happy if I could get a competent help desk monkey, but unfortunately after downsizing, I was lucky enough to have help desk monkey added to my network admin responsibilities.  I'm going to make some assumptions here:  You already have a bachelors degree, your work pays all or part of certification and/or formal education, and you actually like IT work.</p><p>First thing you need to do is get exposure to some of the things you think you may like to do in IT.  Read about them, talk to admins, dba's, etc. in your own company, or find someone in another company you could talk to about their work.</p><p>Once you have a good idea what you want to do, start going to school or training courses for it.  Whether you choose online training, night classes, etc. is up to you, but education will help you move out of help desk work.<br>You will also need hands on work aside from just learning about the trade you pick, so I would suggest (as other have) to load software at home and start working with it.  Hands on work is an excellent complement to book learning, and will ensure you know the material.</p><p>As far as dealing with your current job while you are working towards your goal, it would help if you changed your attitude towards your work.  Instead of getting pissed that you have to unjam paper or help someone with their software, try showing the person how they can fix it themselves.  If they don't want to learn it, then that's fine.  I think most people would rather not have to call someone and wait for help if they can fix the issue on their own.  Get creative.  If you are working towards being a DBA or web designer, try setting up a self-service web site where the user can type in a problem and your program lists common fixes.  It would be a great way to get the experience you need and definitely something to put on your resume.</p><p>Remember that there are a lot of people without jobs, some with families, that would kill to just be getting a steady paycheck.  Be thankful.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I personally would be happy if I could get a competent help desk monkey , but unfortunately after downsizing , I was lucky enough to have help desk monkey added to my network admin responsibilities .
I 'm going to make some assumptions here : You already have a bachelors degree , your work pays all or part of certification and/or formal education , and you actually like IT work.First thing you need to do is get exposure to some of the things you think you may like to do in IT .
Read about them , talk to admins , dba 's , etc .
in your own company , or find someone in another company you could talk to about their work.Once you have a good idea what you want to do , start going to school or training courses for it .
Whether you choose online training , night classes , etc .
is up to you , but education will help you move out of help desk work.You will also need hands on work aside from just learning about the trade you pick , so I would suggest ( as other have ) to load software at home and start working with it .
Hands on work is an excellent complement to book learning , and will ensure you know the material.As far as dealing with your current job while you are working towards your goal , it would help if you changed your attitude towards your work .
Instead of getting pissed that you have to unjam paper or help someone with their software , try showing the person how they can fix it themselves .
If they do n't want to learn it , then that 's fine .
I think most people would rather not have to call someone and wait for help if they can fix the issue on their own .
Get creative .
If you are working towards being a DBA or web designer , try setting up a self-service web site where the user can type in a problem and your program lists common fixes .
It would be a great way to get the experience you need and definitely something to put on your resume.Remember that there are a lot of people without jobs , some with families , that would kill to just be getting a steady paycheck .
Be thankful .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I personally would be happy if I could get a competent help desk monkey, but unfortunately after downsizing, I was lucky enough to have help desk monkey added to my network admin responsibilities.
I'm going to make some assumptions here:  You already have a bachelors degree, your work pays all or part of certification and/or formal education, and you actually like IT work.First thing you need to do is get exposure to some of the things you think you may like to do in IT.
Read about them, talk to admins, dba's, etc.
in your own company, or find someone in another company you could talk to about their work.Once you have a good idea what you want to do, start going to school or training courses for it.
Whether you choose online training, night classes, etc.
is up to you, but education will help you move out of help desk work.You will also need hands on work aside from just learning about the trade you pick, so I would suggest (as other have) to load software at home and start working with it.
Hands on work is an excellent complement to book learning, and will ensure you know the material.As far as dealing with your current job while you are working towards your goal, it would help if you changed your attitude towards your work.
Instead of getting pissed that you have to unjam paper or help someone with their software, try showing the person how they can fix it themselves.
If they don't want to learn it, then that's fine.
I think most people would rather not have to call someone and wait for help if they can fix the issue on their own.
Get creative.
If you are working towards being a DBA or web designer, try setting up a self-service web site where the user can type in a problem and your program lists common fixes.
It would be a great way to get the experience you need and definitely something to put on your resume.Remember that there are a lot of people without jobs, some with families, that would kill to just be getting a steady paycheck.
Be thankful.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374073</id>
	<title>Re:Run For Your Life. Now.</title>
	<author>xp\_fetchbeer</author>
	<datestamp>1245340260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Daniel\_Staal is correct. Get out now before you are trapped. Idiot users who call you now are a pain to deal with. Wait until you are dealing directly with their bosses.

I've worked in nearly every role since college from help desk, to developer, to database administration and finally to management several years ago. My experience has been that things only get worse.

Get out now! At least get away from the law firm environment. Attorneys will never view you as more than a pool boy or gardener, and they are physically incapable of acknowledging that someone without a juris doctorate could be intelligent.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Daniel \ _Staal is correct .
Get out now before you are trapped .
Idiot users who call you now are a pain to deal with .
Wait until you are dealing directly with their bosses .
I 've worked in nearly every role since college from help desk , to developer , to database administration and finally to management several years ago .
My experience has been that things only get worse .
Get out now !
At least get away from the law firm environment .
Attorneys will never view you as more than a pool boy or gardener , and they are physically incapable of acknowledging that someone without a juris doctorate could be intelligent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Daniel\_Staal is correct.
Get out now before you are trapped.
Idiot users who call you now are a pain to deal with.
Wait until you are dealing directly with their bosses.
I've worked in nearly every role since college from help desk, to developer, to database administration and finally to management several years ago.
My experience has been that things only get worse.
Get out now!
At least get away from the law firm environment.
Attorneys will never view you as more than a pool boy or gardener, and they are physically incapable of acknowledging that someone without a juris doctorate could be intelligent.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369647</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369673</id>
	<title>Ugh</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245260100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Go back to school. Have sex with college girls while you still can. Go to any open lectures and take some off the wall classes. Study abroad or save your money for six months and party in Brazil. Meet some people who have lofty ideas, and try to get jobs at companies with the same.</p><p>You aren't going to learn anything but how to take shit and wallow in misery at your current job. If you think that's a valuable skill that you need to learn, then stay.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Go back to school .
Have sex with college girls while you still can .
Go to any open lectures and take some off the wall classes .
Study abroad or save your money for six months and party in Brazil .
Meet some people who have lofty ideas , and try to get jobs at companies with the same.You are n't going to learn anything but how to take shit and wallow in misery at your current job .
If you think that 's a valuable skill that you need to learn , then stay .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Go back to school.
Have sex with college girls while you still can.
Go to any open lectures and take some off the wall classes.
Study abroad or save your money for six months and party in Brazil.
Meet some people who have lofty ideas, and try to get jobs at companies with the same.You aren't going to learn anything but how to take shit and wallow in misery at your current job.
If you think that's a valuable skill that you need to learn, then stay.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370043</id>
	<title>Re:Fuck You</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245264180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work the desk, and I generally find reward in helping people out. I know my field and get things fixed, and I do my best to show understanding for the frustration that usually arises out of needing to call out for assistance.</p><p>But occasionally there's some prick who acts like I'm his personal computer fixing bitch that deserves to be fucked-to-high-holy-hell becausing he can't send his goddamned email. That person can blow steam out of his ears all day; he's last on my priority list.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work the desk , and I generally find reward in helping people out .
I know my field and get things fixed , and I do my best to show understanding for the frustration that usually arises out of needing to call out for assistance.But occasionally there 's some prick who acts like I 'm his personal computer fixing bitch that deserves to be fucked-to-high-holy-hell becausing he ca n't send his goddamned email .
That person can blow steam out of his ears all day ; he 's last on my priority list .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work the desk, and I generally find reward in helping people out.
I know my field and get things fixed, and I do my best to show understanding for the frustration that usually arises out of needing to call out for assistance.But occasionally there's some prick who acts like I'm his personal computer fixing bitch that deserves to be fucked-to-high-holy-hell becausing he can't send his goddamned email.
That person can blow steam out of his ears all day; he's last on my priority list.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369855</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372383</id>
	<title>Re:Learn a UNIX</title>
	<author>J4</author>
	<datestamp>1245331980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Could one reason there are so many half not decent UNIX admins  be that tinkering with a desktop<br>might leave some gaps in a persons knowledge? That method is good for sounding smart when talking to the<br>ignorant, so yeah being a BS artiste can get him outta the help desk, but "learning UNIX" is nontrivial (not to mention a vague goal).<br>Time frames and depth of appropriate knowledge are important too. Incidentally, that has little to do with a persons mental capacity,<br>it's an artifact of the depth and breadth of a poorly documented topic.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Could one reason there are so many half not decent UNIX admins be that tinkering with a desktopmight leave some gaps in a persons knowledge ?
That method is good for sounding smart when talking to theignorant , so yeah being a BS artiste can get him outta the help desk , but " learning UNIX " is nontrivial ( not to mention a vague goal ) .Time frames and depth of appropriate knowledge are important too .
Incidentally , that has little to do with a persons mental capacity,it 's an artifact of the depth and breadth of a poorly documented topic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Could one reason there are so many half not decent UNIX admins  be that tinkering with a desktopmight leave some gaps in a persons knowledge?
That method is good for sounding smart when talking to theignorant, so yeah being a BS artiste can get him outta the help desk, but "learning UNIX" is nontrivial (not to mention a vague goal).Time frames and depth of appropriate knowledge are important too.
Incidentally, that has little to do with a persons mental capacity,it's an artifact of the depth and breadth of a poorly documented topic.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369667</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372973</id>
	<title>Just hang in there.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245335340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I started working in IT in 2004 for a hospital on their helpdesk. I worked my way into a full time position, to later get promoted to Sr. Helpdesk and became a mentor to the people under me. Granted, I had to work the graveyard shift to take the promotion... After I left the hospital, I did a bunch of temping. I mean, a lot of temping.. I had 9 different positions at different companys over a year and a half time period. I later started working for a reality research company... learned a bunch, learned how the servers run etc.... I left that company and started where I am now.. as a desktop support guy. Got my MCSE, CCNA and I was just promoted to Network Administrator on tuesday. What I'm getting at, you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. certs and experience can trump education. My now ex-co worker had a MIS ( masters of Information science ) and a CCNA.. They laid him off and promoted me. Hang in there... it will happen sooner than you think. Granted, I had to wait almost 7 years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I started working in IT in 2004 for a hospital on their helpdesk .
I worked my way into a full time position , to later get promoted to Sr. Helpdesk and became a mentor to the people under me .
Granted , I had to work the graveyard shift to take the promotion... After I left the hospital , I did a bunch of temping .
I mean , a lot of temping.. I had 9 different positions at different companys over a year and a half time period .
I later started working for a reality research company... learned a bunch , learned how the servers run etc.... I left that company and started where I am now.. as a desktop support guy .
Got my MCSE , CCNA and I was just promoted to Network Administrator on tuesday .
What I 'm getting at , you have to start at the bottom and work your way up .
certs and experience can trump education .
My now ex-co worker had a MIS ( masters of Information science ) and a CCNA.. They laid him off and promoted me .
Hang in there... it will happen sooner than you think .
Granted , I had to wait almost 7 years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started working in IT in 2004 for a hospital on their helpdesk.
I worked my way into a full time position, to later get promoted to Sr. Helpdesk and became a mentor to the people under me.
Granted, I had to work the graveyard shift to take the promotion... After I left the hospital, I did a bunch of temping.
I mean, a lot of temping.. I had 9 different positions at different companys over a year and a half time period.
I later started working for a reality research company... learned a bunch, learned how the servers run etc.... I left that company and started where I am now.. as a desktop support guy.
Got my MCSE, CCNA and I was just promoted to Network Administrator on tuesday.
What I'm getting at, you have to start at the bottom and work your way up.
certs and experience can trump education.
My now ex-co worker had a MIS ( masters of Information science ) and a CCNA.. They laid him off and promoted me.
Hang in there... it will happen sooner than you think.
Granted, I had to wait almost 7 years.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372829</id>
	<title>Career Road Map</title>
	<author>OneLessThing</author>
	<datestamp>1245334560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The one question I haven't seen yet is: What are your long term goals? Without knowing that, most of this is speculation at best (IMO).</htmltext>
<tokenext>The one question I have n't seen yet is : What are your long term goals ?
Without knowing that , most of this is speculation at best ( IMO ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The one question I haven't seen yet is: What are your long term goals?
Without knowing that, most of this is speculation at best (IMO).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372793</id>
	<title>Similar situation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245334440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I actually was in a very similar situation.  I had been on Helpdesk at a slightly larger law firm (600+ users) for over 4 years....and nothing was happening for me, despite talking to my boss about it for years.  I finally started looking for a new position, and after about a year, got an offer somewhere else.  It was a lateral move, but nothing was happening with my current situation, so I had nothing to lose.  I went with the offer to my boss, and within 24 hours, he had shuffled the entire department around to allow me to get off the phones and move me into a more supervisory role, as well as more Systems Admin stuff.  After he did this, it was pretty much a no brainer for me to stay.</p><p>So I guess maybe you should look for another job?  It seems that at least where I work, that is how the game is played.  You have to threaten to leave to get promoted/moved around.  It's not the best.  If your current company values you enough, they will find a way to keep you.  And if not, you have a chance to move up in a new organization.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I actually was in a very similar situation .
I had been on Helpdesk at a slightly larger law firm ( 600 + users ) for over 4 years....and nothing was happening for me , despite talking to my boss about it for years .
I finally started looking for a new position , and after about a year , got an offer somewhere else .
It was a lateral move , but nothing was happening with my current situation , so I had nothing to lose .
I went with the offer to my boss , and within 24 hours , he had shuffled the entire department around to allow me to get off the phones and move me into a more supervisory role , as well as more Systems Admin stuff .
After he did this , it was pretty much a no brainer for me to stay.So I guess maybe you should look for another job ?
It seems that at least where I work , that is how the game is played .
You have to threaten to leave to get promoted/moved around .
It 's not the best .
If your current company values you enough , they will find a way to keep you .
And if not , you have a chance to move up in a new organization .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I actually was in a very similar situation.
I had been on Helpdesk at a slightly larger law firm (600+ users) for over 4 years....and nothing was happening for me, despite talking to my boss about it for years.
I finally started looking for a new position, and after about a year, got an offer somewhere else.
It was a lateral move, but nothing was happening with my current situation, so I had nothing to lose.
I went with the offer to my boss, and within 24 hours, he had shuffled the entire department around to allow me to get off the phones and move me into a more supervisory role, as well as more Systems Admin stuff.
After he did this, it was pretty much a no brainer for me to stay.So I guess maybe you should look for another job?
It seems that at least where I work, that is how the game is played.
You have to threaten to leave to get promoted/moved around.
It's not the best.
If your current company values you enough, they will find a way to keep you.
And if not, you have a chance to move up in a new organization.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371031</id>
	<title>Here's a rehash of my SysAdmin post</title>
	<author>Qbertino</author>
	<datestamp>1245318000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A few months ago somebody here on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. asked on how to go about becoming a sysadmin. I wrote a lengthy, high rated reply that basically covers everything you need to know. Admining isn't a bad thing to get skills in, it's sort of the career-path of helpdesk if you will. As a real Admin you're in expert territory. You have to serve, and serve fast, but you won't have PEBCAK stuff to deal with that often. Consider following that path. Here's a pimped version of the reply I mentioned that <a href="http://modp4rlor.com/index.php?option=com\_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=55:wanna-be-an-admin&amp;catid=34:Unix&amp;Itemid=56" title="modp4rlor.com">covers admin stuff</a> [modp4rlor.com].</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A few months ago somebody here on / .
asked on how to go about becoming a sysadmin .
I wrote a lengthy , high rated reply that basically covers everything you need to know .
Admining is n't a bad thing to get skills in , it 's sort of the career-path of helpdesk if you will .
As a real Admin you 're in expert territory .
You have to serve , and serve fast , but you wo n't have PEBCAK stuff to deal with that often .
Consider following that path .
Here 's a pimped version of the reply I mentioned that covers admin stuff [ modp4rlor.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A few months ago somebody here on /.
asked on how to go about becoming a sysadmin.
I wrote a lengthy, high rated reply that basically covers everything you need to know.
Admining isn't a bad thing to get skills in, it's sort of the career-path of helpdesk if you will.
As a real Admin you're in expert territory.
You have to serve, and serve fast, but you won't have PEBCAK stuff to deal with that often.
Consider following that path.
Here's a pimped version of the reply I mentioned that covers admin stuff [modp4rlor.com].</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28375259</id>
	<title>Re:Run For Your Life. Now.</title>
	<author>Daniel\_Staal</author>
	<datestamp>1245345060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That occurred to me when I drove in last night, and found the fiber guy there ahead of me...</p><p>(This was just after posting the above.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That occurred to me when I drove in last night , and found the fiber guy there ahead of me... ( This was just after posting the above .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That occurred to me when I drove in last night, and found the fiber guy there ahead of me...(This was just after posting the above.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372477</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374097</id>
	<title>Re:It's not that bad, just stick with it!</title>
	<author>MrChom</author>
	<datestamp>1245340320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If that wasn't funny it would be very very sad.</p><p>I work in schools IT, and let me tell you there's little to no improvement, just more and more people getting way out of their depth and not bothering to train to cover the gap.  Instead it's front line support who has to pick up the slack and beat the solution into people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If that was n't funny it would be very very sad.I work in schools IT , and let me tell you there 's little to no improvement , just more and more people getting way out of their depth and not bothering to train to cover the gap .
Instead it 's front line support who has to pick up the slack and beat the solution into people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If that wasn't funny it would be very very sad.I work in schools IT, and let me tell you there's little to no improvement, just more and more people getting way out of their depth and not bothering to train to cover the gap.
Instead it's front line support who has to pick up the slack and beat the solution into people.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369603</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369945</id>
	<title>Time is money...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245262980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A shame that we IT people don't know how to negotiate worth a can of beans.</p><p>I've told fellow techs we should be half lawyer. That way we can negotiate better pay AND insure we get paid it.</p><p>If we told them to stuff it and went independent (when a user called because he couldn't print AND there was no internal IT) they'd be more than happy to pay a decent amount to get back to work. Likewise, if the network was down and you had a hundred employees twiddling their thumbs for an hour costing the company a bucket of cash. Again they'd be more inclined to pay an amount that lets you save for a retirement.</p><p>My advise is to get out of the industry and into something that pays better. Fiber splicing should be good for many years.</p><p>I work for a major helicopter manufacturer that farmed its IT out to some company that farmed out the hiring to another that farmed out the hiring to yet another. I get a flat rate with no raises and spotty hours. I know that the three layers of staffing above me are doing much better in the pay and bennies department for way less effort.</p><p>Bitter Tech Person</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A shame that we IT people do n't know how to negotiate worth a can of beans.I 've told fellow techs we should be half lawyer .
That way we can negotiate better pay AND insure we get paid it.If we told them to stuff it and went independent ( when a user called because he could n't print AND there was no internal IT ) they 'd be more than happy to pay a decent amount to get back to work .
Likewise , if the network was down and you had a hundred employees twiddling their thumbs for an hour costing the company a bucket of cash .
Again they 'd be more inclined to pay an amount that lets you save for a retirement.My advise is to get out of the industry and into something that pays better .
Fiber splicing should be good for many years.I work for a major helicopter manufacturer that farmed its IT out to some company that farmed out the hiring to another that farmed out the hiring to yet another .
I get a flat rate with no raises and spotty hours .
I know that the three layers of staffing above me are doing much better in the pay and bennies department for way less effort.Bitter Tech Person</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A shame that we IT people don't know how to negotiate worth a can of beans.I've told fellow techs we should be half lawyer.
That way we can negotiate better pay AND insure we get paid it.If we told them to stuff it and went independent (when a user called because he couldn't print AND there was no internal IT) they'd be more than happy to pay a decent amount to get back to work.
Likewise, if the network was down and you had a hundred employees twiddling their thumbs for an hour costing the company a bucket of cash.
Again they'd be more inclined to pay an amount that lets you save for a retirement.My advise is to get out of the industry and into something that pays better.
Fiber splicing should be good for many years.I work for a major helicopter manufacturer that farmed its IT out to some company that farmed out the hiring to another that farmed out the hiring to yet another.
I get a flat rate with no raises and spotty hours.
I know that the three layers of staffing above me are doing much better in the pay and bennies department for way less effort.Bitter Tech Person</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372141</id>
	<title>Re:It's not that bad, just stick with it!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245330180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I dont know where you live but knowing how to use a tool and debugging it are quite different, you can train a monkey to use a dvd player, does not mean it understands it.</p><p>Young people know more about HOW TO, but still dont get HOW IT WORKS or HOW to fix it.</p><p>I work in a place where we support 1700 users, some users know how to install and setup crapy apps but they cant figure out why, suddenly, it does not work anymore, that's where IT comes in.</p><p>help desk will never disapear because human beings will always be lazy to understand thing they dont normally have to work with, they want the easy fix</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I dont know where you live but knowing how to use a tool and debugging it are quite different , you can train a monkey to use a dvd player , does not mean it understands it.Young people know more about HOW TO , but still dont get HOW IT WORKS or HOW to fix it.I work in a place where we support 1700 users , some users know how to install and setup crapy apps but they cant figure out why , suddenly , it does not work anymore , that 's where IT comes in.help desk will never disapear because human beings will always be lazy to understand thing they dont normally have to work with , they want the easy fix</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I dont know where you live but knowing how to use a tool and debugging it are quite different, you can train a monkey to use a dvd player, does not mean it understands it.Young people know more about HOW TO, but still dont get HOW IT WORKS or HOW to fix it.I work in a place where we support 1700 users, some users know how to install and setup crapy apps but they cant figure out why, suddenly, it does not work anymore, that's where IT comes in.help desk will never disapear because human beings will always be lazy to understand thing they dont normally have to work with, they want the easy fix</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369603</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369603</id>
	<title>It's not that bad, just stick with it!</title>
	<author>Bodhammer</author>
	<datestamp>1245259620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've noticed that most people are getting smarter, understand technology, privacy, business, free enterprise, propoganda, and are becoming less reliant on help desks, friends, church groups, retailers, and especially the government for help.</p><p>Just stick with it,  I'm sure it will get better!  How bad can it really be, they are just lawyers?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've noticed that most people are getting smarter , understand technology , privacy , business , free enterprise , propoganda , and are becoming less reliant on help desks , friends , church groups , retailers , and especially the government for help.Just stick with it , I 'm sure it will get better !
How bad can it really be , they are just lawyers ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've noticed that most people are getting smarter, understand technology, privacy, business, free enterprise, propoganda, and are becoming less reliant on help desks, friends, church groups, retailers, and especially the government for help.Just stick with it,  I'm sure it will get better!
How bad can it really be, they are just lawyers?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370067</id>
	<title>Re:What degree do you have?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245264420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Very good advice.  I graduated last December with a B. S. in computer science, and I have a number of years of IT experience under my belt.</p><p>Finding work?  Absolutely impossible, even though I had a number of jobs lined up before I graduated (a number of the places went into hiring freezes, and two places just went under).  Even though I live in an area that is not hard hit by this economic downturn, I'm competing for jobs from people from other states who are being forced to move.</p><p>So, I'm going to continue to pound the pavement, but if I don't find anything by December, it will grad school for me, likely a degree that is more in the IT field, as opposed to CS in general.</p><p>As for helpdesks, one's strategy is different depending on the type of helpdesk:</p><p>An internal helpdesk for responding to employee problems may be a good stepping stone.  The problem is that employees and managers only see you when stuff is broken, and you are out of mind when stuff is running without issue.  So, there is an association with the helpdesk people and problems.  However, if you are lucky, and can get certificates [1] to show you are serious, you might be able to jump into the core IT department.</p><p>An external helpdesk that does product support for customers is a very difficult place to get out of unless you leave the company.  Usually it's "firewalled" from the rest of the company.  So, at best, one can get into a management position there, or if lucky, get into a product development position (which is hard because the good customer support people will end up locked in support.)  Usually to get out of an external helpdesk into something else, one will likely need to find work at another firm.</p><p>[1]:  Most sysadmins know that certificates don't mean competency.  However, they mean a lot to the HR guys and upper line managers who don't care about employee skill, just that they have the right pieces of paper to justify their existence to the company.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Very good advice .
I graduated last December with a B. S. in computer science , and I have a number of years of IT experience under my belt.Finding work ?
Absolutely impossible , even though I had a number of jobs lined up before I graduated ( a number of the places went into hiring freezes , and two places just went under ) .
Even though I live in an area that is not hard hit by this economic downturn , I 'm competing for jobs from people from other states who are being forced to move.So , I 'm going to continue to pound the pavement , but if I do n't find anything by December , it will grad school for me , likely a degree that is more in the IT field , as opposed to CS in general.As for helpdesks , one 's strategy is different depending on the type of helpdesk : An internal helpdesk for responding to employee problems may be a good stepping stone .
The problem is that employees and managers only see you when stuff is broken , and you are out of mind when stuff is running without issue .
So , there is an association with the helpdesk people and problems .
However , if you are lucky , and can get certificates [ 1 ] to show you are serious , you might be able to jump into the core IT department.An external helpdesk that does product support for customers is a very difficult place to get out of unless you leave the company .
Usually it 's " firewalled " from the rest of the company .
So , at best , one can get into a management position there , or if lucky , get into a product development position ( which is hard because the good customer support people will end up locked in support .
) Usually to get out of an external helpdesk into something else , one will likely need to find work at another firm .
[ 1 ] : Most sysadmins know that certificates do n't mean competency .
However , they mean a lot to the HR guys and upper line managers who do n't care about employee skill , just that they have the right pieces of paper to justify their existence to the company .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Very good advice.
I graduated last December with a B. S. in computer science, and I have a number of years of IT experience under my belt.Finding work?
Absolutely impossible, even though I had a number of jobs lined up before I graduated (a number of the places went into hiring freezes, and two places just went under).
Even though I live in an area that is not hard hit by this economic downturn, I'm competing for jobs from people from other states who are being forced to move.So, I'm going to continue to pound the pavement, but if I don't find anything by December, it will grad school for me, likely a degree that is more in the IT field, as opposed to CS in general.As for helpdesks, one's strategy is different depending on the type of helpdesk:An internal helpdesk for responding to employee problems may be a good stepping stone.
The problem is that employees and managers only see you when stuff is broken, and you are out of mind when stuff is running without issue.
So, there is an association with the helpdesk people and problems.
However, if you are lucky, and can get certificates [1] to show you are serious, you might be able to jump into the core IT department.An external helpdesk that does product support for customers is a very difficult place to get out of unless you leave the company.
Usually it's "firewalled" from the rest of the company.
So, at best, one can get into a management position there, or if lucky, get into a product development position (which is hard because the good customer support people will end up locked in support.
)  Usually to get out of an external helpdesk into something else, one will likely need to find work at another firm.
[1]:  Most sysadmins know that certificates don't mean competency.
However, they mean a lot to the HR guys and upper line managers who don't care about employee skill, just that they have the right pieces of paper to justify their existence to the company.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369587</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369931</id>
	<title>The Taxonomy of IT professionals is as follows...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245262860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Engineerus Originalus:</i></p><p>At the very pinnacle of the IT world, these are the people who invent the things that the rest of the IT world relies on for THEIR jobs. The ones who truly deserve the word "engineer" in their job titles. They work for places like Intel, Google, Microsoft, Cisco, etc. Getting here requires nothing less than a Master's degree.</p><p><i>Managerius Pseudogeek:</i></p><p>These people got a four-year CS degree and jumped straight into the job market. They lack the rigors of graduate school, and the practical knowledge that comes with real job experience and/or industry certifications. A lot of front-line software developers fall into this category, though all the really good ones actually belong to the species <i>Scholarus Basementi</i> (see below). In a healthy and growing economy, these folks can get jobs in a variety of fields, from webdev to DBA. In a down economy, they are frequently passed over by experienced people who are already in the industry and desperate to do whatever is necessary to stay there. It should be noted that this species belongs to the Genus <i>Managerius</i> because four-year degrees carry power in the corporate world, but these individuals lack the real intellectual rigor to rise to the top of their fields technically. This leaves middle management as the usual endpoint for their careers.</p><p><i>Genericus Certificans:</i></p><p>Probably the single largest species of IT professional, they bear a great superficial resemblance to Scholarus Basementi but lack the distinctive colors, odors, and sounds that Basemeni uses to distinguish itself when interacting socially. Many have two year Associate CS degrees, but the majority can be identified by the way they build their nests out of an accumulation of IT industry certifications. If you look inside their cubicle and find both Project+ AND "IBM Certified Solution Designer" certificates posted up then you know you've identified a <i>Certificans</i>. Older members of the species will still proudly display their Novell CNAs. Virtually all IT professionals with the word "Administrator" in their job title belong to this species, though the ones that self-identify as "BOFH" will desperately try to pass themselves off as <i>Basmenti</i>.</p><p><i>Scholarus Basmenti</i></p><p>This species is entirely self-taught, and their individual skill levels vary wildly. The less able members of this species frequently flock around the more advanced individuals in order to camouflage their weaknesses. These packs of <i>Basmenti</i>, led by an Alpha, are highly territorial and competitive. It is believed that their incessant desire to compete for control over FOSS projects or to get credit for "clever hacks" is rooted in their job insecurity. Those who are not unemployed are often found working entry-level helpdesk jobs. Those who do better economically are typically Alphas who went out and obtained a degree or an industry certification to validate their ample innate talents. <i>Basmenti</i> can easily be distinguished from <i>Certificans</i> when asked about their credentials. While <i>Certificans</i> will speak proudly of their achievements, <i>Basmenti</i> will ridicule their own credentials as "worthless paper" or boast about how they passed their exams hung over without bothering to study. Occasionally, especially talented <i>Basmenti</i> who also show aptitude forming healthy human relationships will be able to obtain Venture Capital and will eventually rise to the very top of the "Foo Chain." Once at this point, they will spend lots of the "Foo's" money to hire members of all three other species, who will look at the unschooled savant with naked resentment and envy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Engineerus Originalus : At the very pinnacle of the IT world , these are the people who invent the things that the rest of the IT world relies on for THEIR jobs .
The ones who truly deserve the word " engineer " in their job titles .
They work for places like Intel , Google , Microsoft , Cisco , etc .
Getting here requires nothing less than a Master 's degree.Managerius Pseudogeek : These people got a four-year CS degree and jumped straight into the job market .
They lack the rigors of graduate school , and the practical knowledge that comes with real job experience and/or industry certifications .
A lot of front-line software developers fall into this category , though all the really good ones actually belong to the species Scholarus Basementi ( see below ) .
In a healthy and growing economy , these folks can get jobs in a variety of fields , from webdev to DBA .
In a down economy , they are frequently passed over by experienced people who are already in the industry and desperate to do whatever is necessary to stay there .
It should be noted that this species belongs to the Genus Managerius because four-year degrees carry power in the corporate world , but these individuals lack the real intellectual rigor to rise to the top of their fields technically .
This leaves middle management as the usual endpoint for their careers.Genericus Certificans : Probably the single largest species of IT professional , they bear a great superficial resemblance to Scholarus Basementi but lack the distinctive colors , odors , and sounds that Basemeni uses to distinguish itself when interacting socially .
Many have two year Associate CS degrees , but the majority can be identified by the way they build their nests out of an accumulation of IT industry certifications .
If you look inside their cubicle and find both Project + AND " IBM Certified Solution Designer " certificates posted up then you know you 've identified a Certificans .
Older members of the species will still proudly display their Novell CNAs .
Virtually all IT professionals with the word " Administrator " in their job title belong to this species , though the ones that self-identify as " BOFH " will desperately try to pass themselves off as Basmenti.Scholarus BasmentiThis species is entirely self-taught , and their individual skill levels vary wildly .
The less able members of this species frequently flock around the more advanced individuals in order to camouflage their weaknesses .
These packs of Basmenti , led by an Alpha , are highly territorial and competitive .
It is believed that their incessant desire to compete for control over FOSS projects or to get credit for " clever hacks " is rooted in their job insecurity .
Those who are not unemployed are often found working entry-level helpdesk jobs .
Those who do better economically are typically Alphas who went out and obtained a degree or an industry certification to validate their ample innate talents .
Basmenti can easily be distinguished from Certificans when asked about their credentials .
While Certificans will speak proudly of their achievements , Basmenti will ridicule their own credentials as " worthless paper " or boast about how they passed their exams hung over without bothering to study .
Occasionally , especially talented Basmenti who also show aptitude forming healthy human relationships will be able to obtain Venture Capital and will eventually rise to the very top of the " Foo Chain .
" Once at this point , they will spend lots of the " Foo 's " money to hire members of all three other species , who will look at the unschooled savant with naked resentment and envy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Engineerus Originalus:At the very pinnacle of the IT world, these are the people who invent the things that the rest of the IT world relies on for THEIR jobs.
The ones who truly deserve the word "engineer" in their job titles.
They work for places like Intel, Google, Microsoft, Cisco, etc.
Getting here requires nothing less than a Master's degree.Managerius Pseudogeek:These people got a four-year CS degree and jumped straight into the job market.
They lack the rigors of graduate school, and the practical knowledge that comes with real job experience and/or industry certifications.
A lot of front-line software developers fall into this category, though all the really good ones actually belong to the species Scholarus Basementi (see below).
In a healthy and growing economy, these folks can get jobs in a variety of fields, from webdev to DBA.
In a down economy, they are frequently passed over by experienced people who are already in the industry and desperate to do whatever is necessary to stay there.
It should be noted that this species belongs to the Genus Managerius because four-year degrees carry power in the corporate world, but these individuals lack the real intellectual rigor to rise to the top of their fields technically.
This leaves middle management as the usual endpoint for their careers.Genericus Certificans:Probably the single largest species of IT professional, they bear a great superficial resemblance to Scholarus Basementi but lack the distinctive colors, odors, and sounds that Basemeni uses to distinguish itself when interacting socially.
Many have two year Associate CS degrees, but the majority can be identified by the way they build their nests out of an accumulation of IT industry certifications.
If you look inside their cubicle and find both Project+ AND "IBM Certified Solution Designer" certificates posted up then you know you've identified a Certificans.
Older members of the species will still proudly display their Novell CNAs.
Virtually all IT professionals with the word "Administrator" in their job title belong to this species, though the ones that self-identify as "BOFH" will desperately try to pass themselves off as Basmenti.Scholarus BasmentiThis species is entirely self-taught, and their individual skill levels vary wildly.
The less able members of this species frequently flock around the more advanced individuals in order to camouflage their weaknesses.
These packs of Basmenti, led by an Alpha, are highly territorial and competitive.
It is believed that their incessant desire to compete for control over FOSS projects or to get credit for "clever hacks" is rooted in their job insecurity.
Those who are not unemployed are often found working entry-level helpdesk jobs.
Those who do better economically are typically Alphas who went out and obtained a degree or an industry certification to validate their ample innate talents.
Basmenti can easily be distinguished from Certificans when asked about their credentials.
While Certificans will speak proudly of their achievements, Basmenti will ridicule their own credentials as "worthless paper" or boast about how they passed their exams hung over without bothering to study.
Occasionally, especially talented Basmenti who also show aptitude forming healthy human relationships will be able to obtain Venture Capital and will eventually rise to the very top of the "Foo Chain.
" Once at this point, they will spend lots of the "Foo's" money to hire members of all three other species, who will look at the unschooled savant with naked resentment and envy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370325</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245268500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>And as I am sitting in a hotel room 1000 miles from home, have a raging case of insomnia and am feeling a little philosophical tonight, I have a word or wisdom or two that I want to share.</i>
<br> <br>
<i>Thirdly: Have you ever really thought about what you want to do with your life? I mean <b>really thought</b> about it?</i>
<br> <br>
<i>Who knows what will happen next? Stop thinking so much. <b>Enjoy the ride.</b> </i>
<br> <br>
I think it's time you popped down to the chemist for some ProSom.</htmltext>
<tokenext>And as I am sitting in a hotel room 1000 miles from home , have a raging case of insomnia and am feeling a little philosophical tonight , I have a word or wisdom or two that I want to share .
Thirdly : Have you ever really thought about what you want to do with your life ?
I mean really thought about it ?
Who knows what will happen next ?
Stop thinking so much .
Enjoy the ride .
I think it 's time you popped down to the chemist for some ProSom .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And as I am sitting in a hotel room 1000 miles from home, have a raging case of insomnia and am feeling a little philosophical tonight, I have a word or wisdom or two that I want to share.
Thirdly: Have you ever really thought about what you want to do with your life?
I mean really thought about it?
Who knows what will happen next?
Stop thinking so much.
Enjoy the ride.
I think it's time you popped down to the chemist for some ProSom.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371817</id>
	<title>Re:School is for people who can't read</title>
	<author>jonaskoelker</author>
	<datestamp>1245326760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>So you're guaranteed to be learning old technologies. In this industry, six months counts as old.</p></div><p>Java 1.5 was released after I took Introduction to Programming (with Java 1.4).  Three years after taking the course, I was TA'ing said course, with Java 1.5.  I don't know exactly how fast the course got upgraded, but I also used Java 1.5 in my compiler course (the year before TA'ing, two years after IntroProg).</p><p>Also, studying CS is not about learning ephemeral technologies but eternal principles.  It's only incidental that we express the principles in the languages <em>du jour</em>.</p><p>I haven't seen the revolt against the Church-Turing thesis, or Rice's Theorem, or against search trees (in particular B-trees on the disk for file systems and DB indexes), or against regexp lexers and LALR(1) parsers, or against relational algebra, or...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So you 're guaranteed to be learning old technologies .
In this industry , six months counts as old.Java 1.5 was released after I took Introduction to Programming ( with Java 1.4 ) .
Three years after taking the course , I was TA'ing said course , with Java 1.5 .
I do n't know exactly how fast the course got upgraded , but I also used Java 1.5 in my compiler course ( the year before TA'ing , two years after IntroProg ) .Also , studying CS is not about learning ephemeral technologies but eternal principles .
It 's only incidental that we express the principles in the languages du jour.I have n't seen the revolt against the Church-Turing thesis , or Rice 's Theorem , or against search trees ( in particular B-trees on the disk for file systems and DB indexes ) , or against regexp lexers and LALR ( 1 ) parsers , or against relational algebra , or.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So you're guaranteed to be learning old technologies.
In this industry, six months counts as old.Java 1.5 was released after I took Introduction to Programming (with Java 1.4).
Three years after taking the course, I was TA'ing said course, with Java 1.5.
I don't know exactly how fast the course got upgraded, but I also used Java 1.5 in my compiler course (the year before TA'ing, two years after IntroProg).Also, studying CS is not about learning ephemeral technologies but eternal principles.
It's only incidental that we express the principles in the languages du jour.I haven't seen the revolt against the Church-Turing thesis, or Rice's Theorem, or against search trees (in particular B-trees on the disk for file systems and DB indexes), or against regexp lexers and LALR(1) parsers, or against relational algebra, or...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369783</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374505</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Rex Stone</author>
	<datestamp>1245341940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>IT is a service provider (ITIL). Goal is to align IT services with the business to generate value. Solving the root cause of a problem is where one should concentrate their abilities to bring value to the company. Create an A3 report to show upper management where problem are and hopefully you will get the budget needed to fix them.

Throw a positive spin to IT help desk positions.</htmltext>
<tokenext>IT is a service provider ( ITIL ) .
Goal is to align IT services with the business to generate value .
Solving the root cause of a problem is where one should concentrate their abilities to bring value to the company .
Create an A3 report to show upper management where problem are and hopefully you will get the budget needed to fix them .
Throw a positive spin to IT help desk positions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IT is a service provider (ITIL).
Goal is to align IT services with the business to generate value.
Solving the root cause of a problem is where one should concentrate their abilities to bring value to the company.
Create an A3 report to show upper management where problem are and hopefully you will get the budget needed to fix them.
Throw a positive spin to IT help desk positions.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371793</id>
	<title>Re:Run For Your Life. Now.</title>
	<author>L4t3r4lu5</author>
	<datestamp>1245326460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Go into central heating maintenance.<br> <br>General plumbing is the same as IT Support; You only get to talk to people when their stuff breaks, and you have to deal with their shit all the time.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Go into central heating maintenance .
General plumbing is the same as IT Support ; You only get to talk to people when their stuff breaks , and you have to deal with their shit all the time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Go into central heating maintenance.
General plumbing is the same as IT Support; You only get to talk to people when their stuff breaks, and you have to deal with their shit all the time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369805</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372017</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245328980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here's another perspective from a 30 yr vet of office machine service. I started in the field when IBM Selectrics were just introducing the correction tape feature. I worked on the first edition of telecopiers (fax machines) and as the pc market evolved I began a series of yearly upgrading my personal knowledge bank with new models and new technologies which included many city college classes in computer technology and software programs just to keep competitive and valuable to the companies I worked for. I always enjoyed the happy resolution and satisfaction of making someone's life a little easier by "fixing the problem" and the money I was paid was better than my lack of formal education. You have to crawl before you walk and walk before you run. Get use to doing some grunt work and check your motivation for being in the service business.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's another perspective from a 30 yr vet of office machine service .
I started in the field when IBM Selectrics were just introducing the correction tape feature .
I worked on the first edition of telecopiers ( fax machines ) and as the pc market evolved I began a series of yearly upgrading my personal knowledge bank with new models and new technologies which included many city college classes in computer technology and software programs just to keep competitive and valuable to the companies I worked for .
I always enjoyed the happy resolution and satisfaction of making someone 's life a little easier by " fixing the problem " and the money I was paid was better than my lack of formal education .
You have to crawl before you walk and walk before you run .
Get use to doing some grunt work and check your motivation for being in the service business .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's another perspective from a 30 yr vet of office machine service.
I started in the field when IBM Selectrics were just introducing the correction tape feature.
I worked on the first edition of telecopiers (fax machines) and as the pc market evolved I began a series of yearly upgrading my personal knowledge bank with new models and new technologies which included many city college classes in computer technology and software programs just to keep competitive and valuable to the companies I worked for.
I always enjoyed the happy resolution and satisfaction of making someone's life a little easier by "fixing the problem" and the money I was paid was better than my lack of formal education.
You have to crawl before you walk and walk before you run.
Get use to doing some grunt work and check your motivation for being in the service business.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28375675</id>
	<title>I'm in the very same situation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245346680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not a lawyers firm but I do feel your pain. Im getting a degree in environmental science and I'll get out of this ASAP !<br>If you are in a situation much like mine there is NO place for you up in the ladder ! so the only direction is getting down and up another ladder !</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not a lawyers firm but I do feel your pain .
Im getting a degree in environmental science and I 'll get out of this ASAP ! If you are in a situation much like mine there is NO place for you up in the ladder !
so the only direction is getting down and up another ladder !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not a lawyers firm but I do feel your pain.
Im getting a degree in environmental science and I'll get out of this ASAP !If you are in a situation much like mine there is NO place for you up in the ladder !
so the only direction is getting down and up another ladder !</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372893</id>
	<title>Re:It's not that bad, just stick with it!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245334920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I've noticed that most people are getting smarter, understand technology, privacy, business, free enterprise, propoganda, and are becoming less reliant on help desks, friends, church groups, retailers, and especially the government for help.</p><p>Just stick with it,  I'm sure it will get better!  How bad can it really be, they are just lawyers?</p></div><p>Smart? Understanding technology? Man, I need to come work for your company!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've noticed that most people are getting smarter , understand technology , privacy , business , free enterprise , propoganda , and are becoming less reliant on help desks , friends , church groups , retailers , and especially the government for help.Just stick with it , I 'm sure it will get better !
How bad can it really be , they are just lawyers ? Smart ?
Understanding technology ?
Man , I need to come work for your company !
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've noticed that most people are getting smarter, understand technology, privacy, business, free enterprise, propoganda, and are becoming less reliant on help desks, friends, church groups, retailers, and especially the government for help.Just stick with it,  I'm sure it will get better!
How bad can it really be, they are just lawyers?Smart?
Understanding technology?
Man, I need to come work for your company!
:)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369603</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373721</id>
	<title>Get another job, and become a sysadmin.</title>
	<author>talldean</author>
	<datestamp>1245338640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You'd probably need a BS CS before going for a decent MS CS.

The four tracks in front of you sound like, in order of probability:
1. Helpdesk Manager
2. System Administrator
3. Web Designer
4. Software Developer/Web Developer

System administrator is a jump you can make with a few certifications and/or a bit of luck.  Web designer is a pretty full field, and it tops out pretty quickly.  Web developer requires a touch more school in most cases.

Get another helpdesk job.  Bounce between a few until you find one that's lower stress, and lets you learn what you want to learn in downtime.  Strongly consider system administration, as you can get there from where you are the most quickly, especially in a company willing to promote from helpdesk to junior admin.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You 'd probably need a BS CS before going for a decent MS CS .
The four tracks in front of you sound like , in order of probability : 1 .
Helpdesk Manager 2 .
System Administrator 3 .
Web Designer 4 .
Software Developer/Web Developer System administrator is a jump you can make with a few certifications and/or a bit of luck .
Web designer is a pretty full field , and it tops out pretty quickly .
Web developer requires a touch more school in most cases .
Get another helpdesk job .
Bounce between a few until you find one that 's lower stress , and lets you learn what you want to learn in downtime .
Strongly consider system administration , as you can get there from where you are the most quickly , especially in a company willing to promote from helpdesk to junior admin .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You'd probably need a BS CS before going for a decent MS CS.
The four tracks in front of you sound like, in order of probability:
1.
Helpdesk Manager
2.
System Administrator
3.
Web Designer
4.
Software Developer/Web Developer

System administrator is a jump you can make with a few certifications and/or a bit of luck.
Web designer is a pretty full field, and it tops out pretty quickly.
Web developer requires a touch more school in most cases.
Get another helpdesk job.
Bounce between a few until you find one that's lower stress, and lets you learn what you want to learn in downtime.
Strongly consider system administration, as you can get there from where you are the most quickly, especially in a company willing to promote from helpdesk to junior admin.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370643</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>BOFHelsinki</author>
	<datestamp>1245357780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>10. This <br>
20. Goto 10</i> <br>
30. COME FROM 10 <br>
40. PLEASE <br>
50. Find a gubmint shop with mainframes and convince them that INTERCAL is close kin to COBOL <br>
60. Politely request a six digit salary for rare developer skill set <br> <br>

(No really, a great post, uptownguy!)</htmltext>
<tokenext>10 .
This 20 .
Goto 10 30 .
COME FROM 10 40 .
PLEASE 50 .
Find a gubmint shop with mainframes and convince them that INTERCAL is close kin to COBOL 60 .
Politely request a six digit salary for rare developer skill set ( No really , a great post , uptownguy !
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>10.
This 
20.
Goto 10 
30.
COME FROM 10 
40.
PLEASE 
50.
Find a gubmint shop with mainframes and convince them that INTERCAL is close kin to COBOL 
60.
Politely request a six digit salary for rare developer skill set  

(No really, a great post, uptownguy!
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28433971</id>
	<title>Devices for FIber, Fiber in the house</title>
	<author>cjacobs001</author>
	<datestamp>1245687060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In the US, Verizon Telecom is the only source of the fiber optic signal all the way to the premises.  And no matter what your devices seem to be capable of, Verizon does not provide, for normal residential or business accounts, fiber signal past their optical network terminal.  So, you can't use a true fiber signal on your devices in the house supplied from Verizon Telecom.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In the US , Verizon Telecom is the only source of the fiber optic signal all the way to the premises .
And no matter what your devices seem to be capable of , Verizon does not provide , for normal residential or business accounts , fiber signal past their optical network terminal .
So , you ca n't use a true fiber signal on your devices in the house supplied from Verizon Telecom .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the US, Verizon Telecom is the only source of the fiber optic signal all the way to the premises.
And no matter what your devices seem to be capable of, Verizon does not provide, for normal residential or business accounts, fiber signal past their optical network terminal.
So, you can't use a true fiber signal on your devices in the house supplied from Verizon Telecom.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373433</id>
	<title>What Have You Done?</title>
	<author>Ikonos</author>
	<datestamp>1245337440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What have you done to show your current employer or a future employer you deserve to move off the helpdesk and into a frontline position?  Have you taken the time to earn new certifications? Learned new skills that could be put to use somewhere else in your organization?  Just because you have worked the helpdesk for x amount of time does not entitle you to be moved up and out.  I interviewed plenty of people who worked a helpdesk or tier 1 phone support position for one of my previous employers and when I asked the candidates about gaining new skills while they were in their present job almost every one of them told me they did not but would be more than happy to if I spent my money to get them the certification or training they needed for the position we were interviewing for.  Take the initiative and invest in yourself and you might be surprised the opportunities that open up to you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>What have you done to show your current employer or a future employer you deserve to move off the helpdesk and into a frontline position ?
Have you taken the time to earn new certifications ?
Learned new skills that could be put to use somewhere else in your organization ?
Just because you have worked the helpdesk for x amount of time does not entitle you to be moved up and out .
I interviewed plenty of people who worked a helpdesk or tier 1 phone support position for one of my previous employers and when I asked the candidates about gaining new skills while they were in their present job almost every one of them told me they did not but would be more than happy to if I spent my money to get them the certification or training they needed for the position we were interviewing for .
Take the initiative and invest in yourself and you might be surprised the opportunities that open up to you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What have you done to show your current employer or a future employer you deserve to move off the helpdesk and into a frontline position?
Have you taken the time to earn new certifications?
Learned new skills that could be put to use somewhere else in your organization?
Just because you have worked the helpdesk for x amount of time does not entitle you to be moved up and out.
I interviewed plenty of people who worked a helpdesk or tier 1 phone support position for one of my previous employers and when I asked the candidates about gaining new skills while they were in their present job almost every one of them told me they did not but would be more than happy to if I spent my money to get them the certification or training they needed for the position we were interviewing for.
Take the initiative and invest in yourself and you might be surprised the opportunities that open up to you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369955</id>
	<title>Excel in your role and network</title>
	<author>carlzum</author>
	<datestamp>1245263100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The help desk is a great entry-level position. You have the opportunity to interact with managers and executives, take advantage of it. Develop relationships with everyone you can, learn everything about the environment (applications, servers, business processes), and build a reputation as the company's "computer guru."
<br> <br>
Decide what you want to do and don't be shy about discussing your goals while you're unjamming the VP's printer. When he/she asks how you're doing tell them "a little tired, I was up all night studying for my Oracle certification." Then apply your skills in your current role, even if it means working late. Do users have trouble keeping track of their database passwords? Develop something that applies their password changes to every system. When a position opens, you'll have a leg up on external candidates with more experience.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The help desk is a great entry-level position .
You have the opportunity to interact with managers and executives , take advantage of it .
Develop relationships with everyone you can , learn everything about the environment ( applications , servers , business processes ) , and build a reputation as the company 's " computer guru .
" Decide what you want to do and do n't be shy about discussing your goals while you 're unjamming the VP 's printer .
When he/she asks how you 're doing tell them " a little tired , I was up all night studying for my Oracle certification .
" Then apply your skills in your current role , even if it means working late .
Do users have trouble keeping track of their database passwords ?
Develop something that applies their password changes to every system .
When a position opens , you 'll have a leg up on external candidates with more experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The help desk is a great entry-level position.
You have the opportunity to interact with managers and executives, take advantage of it.
Develop relationships with everyone you can, learn everything about the environment (applications, servers, business processes), and build a reputation as the company's "computer guru.
"
 
Decide what you want to do and don't be shy about discussing your goals while you're unjamming the VP's printer.
When he/she asks how you're doing tell them "a little tired, I was up all night studying for my Oracle certification.
" Then apply your skills in your current role, even if it means working late.
Do users have trouble keeping track of their database passwords?
Develop something that applies their password changes to every system.
When a position opens, you'll have a leg up on external candidates with more experience.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371055</id>
	<title>Re:A few more options</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245318120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>If you want to be a dba or programmer, you don't need any experience in the real world.</i></p><p>This statement displays a staggering level of ignorance. I hope not to enounter any sysadmins like you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you want to be a dba or programmer , you do n't need any experience in the real world.This statement displays a staggering level of ignorance .
I hope not to enounter any sysadmins like you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you want to be a dba or programmer, you don't need any experience in the real world.This statement displays a staggering level of ignorance.
I hope not to enounter any sysadmins like you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369719</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373677</id>
	<title>First...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245338460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>we should kill all the lawyers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>we should kill all the lawyers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>we should kill all the lawyers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28381127</id>
	<title>Re:Learn a UNIX</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245321420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or a more lucrative job in the same field. MS "certified professionals" are a dime a dozen, and many business schools have such hard-core classes as "MS Excel 302". Those same people had a starting salary in the $35k range, without a Bachelors, with was more like $42k. Since I was familiar with AIX (gross, but it's what my school used), and had done many projects administrating and writing for various BSD's on top of my experience with Windows (much less than I know now), my starting salary was more in the $50k range.</p><p>Get into more 'niched' fields, such as computer security, and you can only move up from there. Having the education with a few years security experience, or large-scale network management experience, can easily get you into the $80k to $120k range.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or a more lucrative job in the same field .
MS " certified professionals " are a dime a dozen , and many business schools have such hard-core classes as " MS Excel 302 " .
Those same people had a starting salary in the $ 35k range , without a Bachelors , with was more like $ 42k .
Since I was familiar with AIX ( gross , but it 's what my school used ) , and had done many projects administrating and writing for various BSD 's on top of my experience with Windows ( much less than I know now ) , my starting salary was more in the $ 50k range.Get into more 'niched ' fields , such as computer security , and you can only move up from there .
Having the education with a few years security experience , or large-scale network management experience , can easily get you into the $ 80k to $ 120k range .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or a more lucrative job in the same field.
MS "certified professionals" are a dime a dozen, and many business schools have such hard-core classes as "MS Excel 302".
Those same people had a starting salary in the $35k range, without a Bachelors, with was more like $42k.
Since I was familiar with AIX (gross, but it's what my school used), and had done many projects administrating and writing for various BSD's on top of my experience with Windows (much less than I know now), my starting salary was more in the $50k range.Get into more 'niched' fields, such as computer security, and you can only move up from there.
Having the education with a few years security experience, or large-scale network management experience, can easily get you into the $80k to $120k range.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369667</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370927</id>
	<title>Re:Ugh</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245317100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Getting AIDS or lesser VD isn't going to help him.  And college girls have debt.  Serious, serious debt.</p><p>You don't have to quit your job to take classes.  Usually work will pay for it, so long as you make a case for the class applying to work.  A single 2 credit or 3 credit class is do-able during your off hours.  It will keep your mind busy, and college is a great place to make friends.  You might even meet the campus IT guys, and get your foot in the door to working there!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Getting AIDS or lesser VD is n't going to help him .
And college girls have debt .
Serious , serious debt.You do n't have to quit your job to take classes .
Usually work will pay for it , so long as you make a case for the class applying to work .
A single 2 credit or 3 credit class is do-able during your off hours .
It will keep your mind busy , and college is a great place to make friends .
You might even meet the campus IT guys , and get your foot in the door to working there !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Getting AIDS or lesser VD isn't going to help him.
And college girls have debt.
Serious, serious debt.You don't have to quit your job to take classes.
Usually work will pay for it, so long as you make a case for the class applying to work.
A single 2 credit or 3 credit class is do-able during your off hours.
It will keep your mind busy, and college is a great place to make friends.
You might even meet the campus IT guys, and get your foot in the door to working there!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369673</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373971</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>DrgnDancer</author>
	<datestamp>1245339780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Depends where you work.  In some places (it sounds like this is a medium sized business, so it probably fits the bill), desktop support is ALSO supposed to work on operational IT.  In other words, your job is to take user support calls, but while you're at it, look at these spam filter rules and see if you can't tighten things up a bit, and check the web server configs to see if we can support this new Intranet page., and write a script to check the status of the mailserver ever 10 minutes.  It's really, really hard to concentrate on an operational problem when you are constantly being interrupted by user issues.  Yes, it's your job but this other thing is ALSO your job, and if you could just get an hour without interruption maybe you could finally get it done.</p><p>I've been in the opposite situation myself several times, my title was "Systems Administrator", but the company was small enough that I also had to deal with user issues.  This is even worse, since my "primary" job is to support the operational and planning needs of the organization, and user issues are supposed to be "secondary".  In practices, since users are real flesh and blood people who can whine and/or complain to the director, their issues can never really be "secondary" and operational needs suffer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Depends where you work .
In some places ( it sounds like this is a medium sized business , so it probably fits the bill ) , desktop support is ALSO supposed to work on operational IT .
In other words , your job is to take user support calls , but while you 're at it , look at these spam filter rules and see if you ca n't tighten things up a bit , and check the web server configs to see if we can support this new Intranet page. , and write a script to check the status of the mailserver ever 10 minutes .
It 's really , really hard to concentrate on an operational problem when you are constantly being interrupted by user issues .
Yes , it 's your job but this other thing is ALSO your job , and if you could just get an hour without interruption maybe you could finally get it done.I 've been in the opposite situation myself several times , my title was " Systems Administrator " , but the company was small enough that I also had to deal with user issues .
This is even worse , since my " primary " job is to support the operational and planning needs of the organization , and user issues are supposed to be " secondary " .
In practices , since users are real flesh and blood people who can whine and/or complain to the director , their issues can never really be " secondary " and operational needs suffer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Depends where you work.
In some places (it sounds like this is a medium sized business, so it probably fits the bill), desktop support is ALSO supposed to work on operational IT.
In other words, your job is to take user support calls, but while you're at it, look at these spam filter rules and see if you can't tighten things up a bit, and check the web server configs to see if we can support this new Intranet page., and write a script to check the status of the mailserver ever 10 minutes.
It's really, really hard to concentrate on an operational problem when you are constantly being interrupted by user issues.
Yes, it's your job but this other thing is ALSO your job, and if you could just get an hour without interruption maybe you could finally get it done.I've been in the opposite situation myself several times, my title was "Systems Administrator", but the company was small enough that I also had to deal with user issues.
This is even worse, since my "primary" job is to support the operational and planning needs of the organization, and user issues are supposed to be "secondary".
In practices, since users are real flesh and blood people who can whine and/or complain to the director, their issues can never really be "secondary" and operational needs suffer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369875</id>
	<title>Re:Learn a UNIX</title>
	<author>Fallen Kell</author>
	<datestamp>1245262020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have to agree with the parent on this one. You need to go learn something that isn't taught at pump and dump schools or tech institutions. There are a thousand people with window's certs for every one that actually knows something about Unix/Linux. There is almost never a shortage for the need of a good Unix/Linux admin in the job market. A lot of the first generation admins are retiring now and in the next 5-10 years which means there will be a lot of need for experienced admins. Another thing you can do is focus on something like High Performance Computing (HPC). Again, there is more and more demand for this, and guess what, ~87\% of the top 500 supercomputers run linux, ~5\% run Unix, and around 1\% run Windows. Again, this just says, go learn a Unix/Linux distribution. Get you foot in the door at a company that uses it. Yeah, you might have to do helpdesk, but you can actually learn Unix/Linux from helpdesk due to the fact that most problems are not something that a scripted conversation will normally fix. While there are some issues that you will run into time and time again, those things will almost always present themselves in a different form. You are also dealing with managing systems which can easily have an uptime of years. The systems were designed and built to last and have an OS that had the same stability requirements as well. It is typical to see systems go a year or more between reboots.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have to agree with the parent on this one .
You need to go learn something that is n't taught at pump and dump schools or tech institutions .
There are a thousand people with window 's certs for every one that actually knows something about Unix/Linux .
There is almost never a shortage for the need of a good Unix/Linux admin in the job market .
A lot of the first generation admins are retiring now and in the next 5-10 years which means there will be a lot of need for experienced admins .
Another thing you can do is focus on something like High Performance Computing ( HPC ) .
Again , there is more and more demand for this , and guess what , ~ 87 \ % of the top 500 supercomputers run linux , ~ 5 \ % run Unix , and around 1 \ % run Windows .
Again , this just says , go learn a Unix/Linux distribution .
Get you foot in the door at a company that uses it .
Yeah , you might have to do helpdesk , but you can actually learn Unix/Linux from helpdesk due to the fact that most problems are not something that a scripted conversation will normally fix .
While there are some issues that you will run into time and time again , those things will almost always present themselves in a different form .
You are also dealing with managing systems which can easily have an uptime of years .
The systems were designed and built to last and have an OS that had the same stability requirements as well .
It is typical to see systems go a year or more between reboots .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have to agree with the parent on this one.
You need to go learn something that isn't taught at pump and dump schools or tech institutions.
There are a thousand people with window's certs for every one that actually knows something about Unix/Linux.
There is almost never a shortage for the need of a good Unix/Linux admin in the job market.
A lot of the first generation admins are retiring now and in the next 5-10 years which means there will be a lot of need for experienced admins.
Another thing you can do is focus on something like High Performance Computing (HPC).
Again, there is more and more demand for this, and guess what, ~87\% of the top 500 supercomputers run linux, ~5\% run Unix, and around 1\% run Windows.
Again, this just says, go learn a Unix/Linux distribution.
Get you foot in the door at a company that uses it.
Yeah, you might have to do helpdesk, but you can actually learn Unix/Linux from helpdesk due to the fact that most problems are not something that a scripted conversation will normally fix.
While there are some issues that you will run into time and time again, those things will almost always present themselves in a different form.
You are also dealing with managing systems which can easily have an uptime of years.
The systems were designed and built to last and have an OS that had the same stability requirements as well.
It is typical to see systems go a year or more between reboots.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369667</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373597</id>
	<title>What Value do you bring to the table</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245338160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I believe you're looking at this problem from the wrong side (i.e. yours, and not the business). In any job or position, you aren't being paid by the hour, you're being paid for the value you bring to that hour. So if you show up for work every day, punch the clock,  do your tickets, and punch out at the end of the shift, you've met the expectations of your boss and firm. But if you fail to show that you are more valuable than the position you are working in, and there is no reason to promote you..</p><p>For example, what have you done to transform the helpdesk environment and actually reduce the number of tickets coming in? Have you developed an improved troubleshooting model for your peers, determined and remediated root cause of a common issue, suggested real solutions to existing infrastructure problems, or created a script that automates the resolution of a common problem?</p><p>You work in a small company,  look around for oppourtunities and show initative. Show everyone that you're being under utilized in your current role. Create value. If you can't think in this mindset, a Masters Degree won't help you - 10 years from now you'll still be pigeon holed into a dead end job and posting on newsgroups to find out what merit badge you need to move up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I believe you 're looking at this problem from the wrong side ( i.e .
yours , and not the business ) .
In any job or position , you are n't being paid by the hour , you 're being paid for the value you bring to that hour .
So if you show up for work every day , punch the clock , do your tickets , and punch out at the end of the shift , you 've met the expectations of your boss and firm .
But if you fail to show that you are more valuable than the position you are working in , and there is no reason to promote you..For example , what have you done to transform the helpdesk environment and actually reduce the number of tickets coming in ?
Have you developed an improved troubleshooting model for your peers , determined and remediated root cause of a common issue , suggested real solutions to existing infrastructure problems , or created a script that automates the resolution of a common problem ? You work in a small company , look around for oppourtunities and show initative .
Show everyone that you 're being under utilized in your current role .
Create value .
If you ca n't think in this mindset , a Masters Degree wo n't help you - 10 years from now you 'll still be pigeon holed into a dead end job and posting on newsgroups to find out what merit badge you need to move up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I believe you're looking at this problem from the wrong side (i.e.
yours, and not the business).
In any job or position, you aren't being paid by the hour, you're being paid for the value you bring to that hour.
So if you show up for work every day, punch the clock,  do your tickets, and punch out at the end of the shift, you've met the expectations of your boss and firm.
But if you fail to show that you are more valuable than the position you are working in, and there is no reason to promote you..For example, what have you done to transform the helpdesk environment and actually reduce the number of tickets coming in?
Have you developed an improved troubleshooting model for your peers, determined and remediated root cause of a common issue, suggested real solutions to existing infrastructure problems, or created a script that automates the resolution of a common problem?You work in a small company,  look around for oppourtunities and show initative.
Show everyone that you're being under utilized in your current role.
Create value.
If you can't think in this mindset, a Masters Degree won't help you - 10 years from now you'll still be pigeon holed into a dead end job and posting on newsgroups to find out what merit badge you need to move up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370651</id>
	<title>That's a High-Class Problem, Buddy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245357960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Dude, I genuinely feel for you - when I started out 14 years ago, my first job out of college was doing Help Desk work (several thousand users), and it drove me frikkin' NUTZ. Did it for three years, then moved on to another position at a much smaller company, where things were more sane but the work was just as unrewarding.</p><p>I can't recommend more strongly that you need to get some perspective. In this economy, having a job which keeps you busy, is a GOOD PROBLEM TO HAVE. There are thousands of people out there who would sacrifice a lot in order to have the opportunity to be in an job such as yours. Sure, it's stressful, and it's not challenging you, but I wonder how realistic your expectation is. As you grew up you were promised you'd have a rewarding enjoyable career, and now you're finding you don't. (Ever seen Fight Club? Go see it.)</p><p>Work CAN be rewarding, but only to the extent that you're willing to face the challenges; to take the bad with the good. You get out what you put in. Expecting the employer or environment to make the job more pleasureable or rewarding... that's the path to years of frustration. Trust me, that was my attitude for years, and I wish I hadn't've had it.  But I'm glad I finally learned (a) the value of sacrifice &amp; sucking it up, and (b) to not look to my job to provide reams of goodness to me. Strangely, it was only *after* I learned these things, that I finally started to get some rewarding jobs. I'm doing more back-end application support for functionally-specific technology (in the Smart Grid space) and I love it, my environment, and my coworkers, and I'm making reams of money.</p><p>You'll get there. Rome wasn't built in a day. Our society makes it too easy to have expectations that we're gonna get what we want, and get it soon.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Dude , I genuinely feel for you - when I started out 14 years ago , my first job out of college was doing Help Desk work ( several thousand users ) , and it drove me frikkin ' NUTZ .
Did it for three years , then moved on to another position at a much smaller company , where things were more sane but the work was just as unrewarding.I ca n't recommend more strongly that you need to get some perspective .
In this economy , having a job which keeps you busy , is a GOOD PROBLEM TO HAVE .
There are thousands of people out there who would sacrifice a lot in order to have the opportunity to be in an job such as yours .
Sure , it 's stressful , and it 's not challenging you , but I wonder how realistic your expectation is .
As you grew up you were promised you 'd have a rewarding enjoyable career , and now you 're finding you do n't .
( Ever seen Fight Club ?
Go see it .
) Work CAN be rewarding , but only to the extent that you 're willing to face the challenges ; to take the bad with the good .
You get out what you put in .
Expecting the employer or environment to make the job more pleasureable or rewarding... that 's the path to years of frustration .
Trust me , that was my attitude for years , and I wish I had n't've had it .
But I 'm glad I finally learned ( a ) the value of sacrifice &amp; sucking it up , and ( b ) to not look to my job to provide reams of goodness to me .
Strangely , it was only * after * I learned these things , that I finally started to get some rewarding jobs .
I 'm doing more back-end application support for functionally-specific technology ( in the Smart Grid space ) and I love it , my environment , and my coworkers , and I 'm making reams of money.You 'll get there .
Rome was n't built in a day .
Our society makes it too easy to have expectations that we 're gon na get what we want , and get it soon .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dude, I genuinely feel for you - when I started out 14 years ago, my first job out of college was doing Help Desk work (several thousand users), and it drove me frikkin' NUTZ.
Did it for three years, then moved on to another position at a much smaller company, where things were more sane but the work was just as unrewarding.I can't recommend more strongly that you need to get some perspective.
In this economy, having a job which keeps you busy, is a GOOD PROBLEM TO HAVE.
There are thousands of people out there who would sacrifice a lot in order to have the opportunity to be in an job such as yours.
Sure, it's stressful, and it's not challenging you, but I wonder how realistic your expectation is.
As you grew up you were promised you'd have a rewarding enjoyable career, and now you're finding you don't.
(Ever seen Fight Club?
Go see it.
)Work CAN be rewarding, but only to the extent that you're willing to face the challenges; to take the bad with the good.
You get out what you put in.
Expecting the employer or environment to make the job more pleasureable or rewarding... that's the path to years of frustration.
Trust me, that was my attitude for years, and I wish I hadn't've had it.
But I'm glad I finally learned (a) the value of sacrifice &amp; sucking it up, and (b) to not look to my job to provide reams of goodness to me.
Strangely, it was only *after* I learned these things, that I finally started to get some rewarding jobs.
I'm doing more back-end application support for functionally-specific technology (in the Smart Grid space) and I love it, my environment, and my coworkers, and I'm making reams of money.You'll get there.
Rome wasn't built in a day.
Our society makes it too easy to have expectations that we're gonna get what we want, and get it soon.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373831</id>
	<title>Gov't contractor</title>
	<author>Gilmoure</author>
	<datestamp>1245339180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Try to get a tech job with a gov't contracting company, like <a href="http://www.lockheedmartinjobs.com/" title="lockheedmartinjobs.com">Lockheed Martin</a> [lockheedmartinjobs.com] or <a href="http://www.saic.com/career/" title="saic.com">SAIC</a> [saic.com]. They pretty regularly have entry level tech jobs that only require 'ability to get a clearance'. Once you have a gov't issued clearance (either DOD, DOE, etc.), you're golden. The cost to the contractors for this clearance is around $10k-$20k. Once you have it, doors open as you're now cheaper to hire. Also, the contracting companies usually have their own online tech training and internal certs as well as tuition reimbursement (you're now an asset to them and the better trained, the more money they get hiring you out). Finally, the gov't isn't going to be outsourcing tech work. It all has to be done here in the U.S.</p><p>Good luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Try to get a tech job with a gov't contracting company , like Lockheed Martin [ lockheedmartinjobs.com ] or SAIC [ saic.com ] .
They pretty regularly have entry level tech jobs that only require 'ability to get a clearance' .
Once you have a gov't issued clearance ( either DOD , DOE , etc .
) , you 're golden .
The cost to the contractors for this clearance is around $ 10k- $ 20k .
Once you have it , doors open as you 're now cheaper to hire .
Also , the contracting companies usually have their own online tech training and internal certs as well as tuition reimbursement ( you 're now an asset to them and the better trained , the more money they get hiring you out ) .
Finally , the gov't is n't going to be outsourcing tech work .
It all has to be done here in the U.S.Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Try to get a tech job with a gov't contracting company, like Lockheed Martin [lockheedmartinjobs.com] or SAIC [saic.com].
They pretty regularly have entry level tech jobs that only require 'ability to get a clearance'.
Once you have a gov't issued clearance (either DOD, DOE, etc.
), you're golden.
The cost to the contractors for this clearance is around $10k-$20k.
Once you have it, doors open as you're now cheaper to hire.
Also, the contracting companies usually have their own online tech training and internal certs as well as tuition reimbursement (you're now an asset to them and the better trained, the more money they get hiring you out).
Finally, the gov't isn't going to be outsourcing tech work.
It all has to be done here in the U.S.Good luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372845</id>
	<title>You can now get a Masters...</title>
	<author>rnturn</author>
	<datestamp>1245334680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... degree in web development?

</p><p>I would have thought that even an Associate degree for something like that would be a stretch. I guess colleges and universities really <i>have</i> become nothing more than expensive trade schools.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... degree in web development ?
I would have thought that even an Associate degree for something like that would be a stretch .
I guess colleges and universities really have become nothing more than expensive trade schools .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... degree in web development?
I would have thought that even an Associate degree for something like that would be a stretch.
I guess colleges and universities really have become nothing more than expensive trade schools.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370571</id>
	<title>Prep yourself up and sell yourself right.</title>
	<author>makisig</author>
	<datestamp>1245357000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>So you want out of hell desk. I'm assuming that you also have figured out what you actually want to do. If not, you really need to think about that first. Perhaps the other posts above this one can help.
<br> <br>
After leaving school, I took a similar support role for a web hosting department in a large US ISP primarily because I felt like doing something different from my undergrad study on robotics at that time. I was curious about how web servers are set up for a commercial provider.
<br> <br>
It didn't turn out the way I thought it would. The phone would ring incessantly all day. There were angry customers cursing at you when their web site is down or they didn't get their emails regardless of whose fault it was.There were also technology-challenged customers you'd painstakingly walk through for the next hour or so on setting up their email client or posting a picture of their dog on their personal web site.
<br> <br>
Of course, I quickly realized that this support role is not for me and I wanted a development work instead. That is my interest and I know I am capable for the job but I also felt that my experience was off-putting. However, selling myself right I think helped and I am now involved in product development for once of the largest software companies in the world.
<br> <br>
First Advice: <b>Right now, try to do stuff related to your target role while working as a hell desk monkey.</b>
<br>
You may already be doing some of them and not be aware of it. For example, if you want to go for a software developer role, try solving problems by writing software for it. You could write programs to automate some menial repetitive tasks for you. Of course that will be difficult with people bugging you every five minutes but it will help you to build up on relevant experience worth mentioning in an interview. Analyze certain recurring problems and see if you can come up with a script to automatically fix them. You mentioned web development and database, why not whip out a LAMP stack for starters and set up an online tracking tool or a knowledgebase accessible by everyone in your intranet? In your free time, contribute to Open Source projects or build stuff in your basement. <b>Build up on relevant experience.</b>
<br> <br>
I bet you can find some problem that you can fix by taking the role you're aiming for. Say, if you're aiming for a management role, look for IT processes that can be improved. I am hopeful that would be in the position to propose changes to processes since you're the lone IT guy.
<br> <br>
Another management-related example. See if you can educate your users. I bet it can make your life easier as well as everyone elses if if everyone knows, how to clear their browser cache, reset their network connection, or (so help us by the powers that be) reboot.
<br> <br>
Next Advice: <b>Study on stuff related to your target role.</b>
<br>This need not be expounded. Plenty of resources online to help you learn more about other roles that you're aiming for. In fact, you're already looking at one of them. Go to a local library, pick up a book on development or management or whatever and start learning. Impress your interviewer with your grasp of the subject.
<br> <br>
Lastly: When applying for a job, <b>highlight only your relevant achievements.</b>
<br>In my technical interviews, I would talk about the tools that I developed while I was doing support. I mentioned the projects I have on the side (from open-source contributions to relevant hobby projects)  as well as stuff I did on my undergrad. I doubt that they were particularly interested about how I saved several customers because I calmed them down and talked them out of canceling their subscription. This is where selling yourself right comes in.
<br> <br>
Don't worry much about not having the right credentials. You can build on that and chances are, you already have them. As for pursuing a master's, go for it. I myself am preparing for continuing education and education is never a bad thing. However, at this point I don't think you have to wait a few more years for a a graduate degree to move out of hell desk.</htmltext>
<tokenext>So you want out of hell desk .
I 'm assuming that you also have figured out what you actually want to do .
If not , you really need to think about that first .
Perhaps the other posts above this one can help .
After leaving school , I took a similar support role for a web hosting department in a large US ISP primarily because I felt like doing something different from my undergrad study on robotics at that time .
I was curious about how web servers are set up for a commercial provider .
It did n't turn out the way I thought it would .
The phone would ring incessantly all day .
There were angry customers cursing at you when their web site is down or they did n't get their emails regardless of whose fault it was.There were also technology-challenged customers you 'd painstakingly walk through for the next hour or so on setting up their email client or posting a picture of their dog on their personal web site .
Of course , I quickly realized that this support role is not for me and I wanted a development work instead .
That is my interest and I know I am capable for the job but I also felt that my experience was off-putting .
However , selling myself right I think helped and I am now involved in product development for once of the largest software companies in the world .
First Advice : Right now , try to do stuff related to your target role while working as a hell desk monkey .
You may already be doing some of them and not be aware of it .
For example , if you want to go for a software developer role , try solving problems by writing software for it .
You could write programs to automate some menial repetitive tasks for you .
Of course that will be difficult with people bugging you every five minutes but it will help you to build up on relevant experience worth mentioning in an interview .
Analyze certain recurring problems and see if you can come up with a script to automatically fix them .
You mentioned web development and database , why not whip out a LAMP stack for starters and set up an online tracking tool or a knowledgebase accessible by everyone in your intranet ?
In your free time , contribute to Open Source projects or build stuff in your basement .
Build up on relevant experience .
I bet you can find some problem that you can fix by taking the role you 're aiming for .
Say , if you 're aiming for a management role , look for IT processes that can be improved .
I am hopeful that would be in the position to propose changes to processes since you 're the lone IT guy .
Another management-related example .
See if you can educate your users .
I bet it can make your life easier as well as everyone elses if if everyone knows , how to clear their browser cache , reset their network connection , or ( so help us by the powers that be ) reboot .
Next Advice : Study on stuff related to your target role .
This need not be expounded .
Plenty of resources online to help you learn more about other roles that you 're aiming for .
In fact , you 're already looking at one of them .
Go to a local library , pick up a book on development or management or whatever and start learning .
Impress your interviewer with your grasp of the subject .
Lastly : When applying for a job , highlight only your relevant achievements .
In my technical interviews , I would talk about the tools that I developed while I was doing support .
I mentioned the projects I have on the side ( from open-source contributions to relevant hobby projects ) as well as stuff I did on my undergrad .
I doubt that they were particularly interested about how I saved several customers because I calmed them down and talked them out of canceling their subscription .
This is where selling yourself right comes in .
Do n't worry much about not having the right credentials .
You can build on that and chances are , you already have them .
As for pursuing a master 's , go for it .
I myself am preparing for continuing education and education is never a bad thing .
However , at this point I do n't think you have to wait a few more years for a a graduate degree to move out of hell desk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So you want out of hell desk.
I'm assuming that you also have figured out what you actually want to do.
If not, you really need to think about that first.
Perhaps the other posts above this one can help.
After leaving school, I took a similar support role for a web hosting department in a large US ISP primarily because I felt like doing something different from my undergrad study on robotics at that time.
I was curious about how web servers are set up for a commercial provider.
It didn't turn out the way I thought it would.
The phone would ring incessantly all day.
There were angry customers cursing at you when their web site is down or they didn't get their emails regardless of whose fault it was.There were also technology-challenged customers you'd painstakingly walk through for the next hour or so on setting up their email client or posting a picture of their dog on their personal web site.
Of course, I quickly realized that this support role is not for me and I wanted a development work instead.
That is my interest and I know I am capable for the job but I also felt that my experience was off-putting.
However, selling myself right I think helped and I am now involved in product development for once of the largest software companies in the world.
First Advice: Right now, try to do stuff related to your target role while working as a hell desk monkey.
You may already be doing some of them and not be aware of it.
For example, if you want to go for a software developer role, try solving problems by writing software for it.
You could write programs to automate some menial repetitive tasks for you.
Of course that will be difficult with people bugging you every five minutes but it will help you to build up on relevant experience worth mentioning in an interview.
Analyze certain recurring problems and see if you can come up with a script to automatically fix them.
You mentioned web development and database, why not whip out a LAMP stack for starters and set up an online tracking tool or a knowledgebase accessible by everyone in your intranet?
In your free time, contribute to Open Source projects or build stuff in your basement.
Build up on relevant experience.
I bet you can find some problem that you can fix by taking the role you're aiming for.
Say, if you're aiming for a management role, look for IT processes that can be improved.
I am hopeful that would be in the position to propose changes to processes since you're the lone IT guy.
Another management-related example.
See if you can educate your users.
I bet it can make your life easier as well as everyone elses if if everyone knows, how to clear their browser cache, reset their network connection, or (so help us by the powers that be) reboot.
Next Advice: Study on stuff related to your target role.
This need not be expounded.
Plenty of resources online to help you learn more about other roles that you're aiming for.
In fact, you're already looking at one of them.
Go to a local library, pick up a book on development or management or whatever and start learning.
Impress your interviewer with your grasp of the subject.
Lastly: When applying for a job, highlight only your relevant achievements.
In my technical interviews, I would talk about the tools that I developed while I was doing support.
I mentioned the projects I have on the side (from open-source contributions to relevant hobby projects)  as well as stuff I did on my undergrad.
I doubt that they were particularly interested about how I saved several customers because I calmed them down and talked them out of canceling their subscription.
This is where selling yourself right comes in.
Don't worry much about not having the right credentials.
You can build on that and chances are, you already have them.
As for pursuing a master's, go for it.
I myself am preparing for continuing education and education is never a bad thing.
However, at this point I don't think you have to wait a few more years for a a graduate degree to move out of hell desk.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369885</id>
	<title>Electronic Medical records</title>
	<author>hypercube24</author>
	<datestamp>1245262200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>With the huge government stimulus for EMR you may find this a busy field in the near future.  Check out some of the companies working on this.  Doctors are scrambling to implement the mandate to "digitize" their records and this may be an opportunity.  I have been assisting local docs in their offices, it is interesting.  Some of the systems they are using are genuine antiques ( I am working on getting some of the data from a 15 year old Unix machine, it is still spinning and has a "huge" 100 meg hd with patient information in a proprietary format!).  A real challenge will be getting all the new medical records systems to talk to each other and transfer information, integrate lab tests into the data base and so on.  Google has a "medical record" online system which is very clumsy, and if this is the best they can do there is room for real innovation in this field.    Dr B</htmltext>
<tokenext>With the huge government stimulus for EMR you may find this a busy field in the near future .
Check out some of the companies working on this .
Doctors are scrambling to implement the mandate to " digitize " their records and this may be an opportunity .
I have been assisting local docs in their offices , it is interesting .
Some of the systems they are using are genuine antiques ( I am working on getting some of the data from a 15 year old Unix machine , it is still spinning and has a " huge " 100 meg hd with patient information in a proprietary format ! ) .
A real challenge will be getting all the new medical records systems to talk to each other and transfer information , integrate lab tests into the data base and so on .
Google has a " medical record " online system which is very clumsy , and if this is the best they can do there is room for real innovation in this field .
Dr B</tokentext>
<sentencetext>With the huge government stimulus for EMR you may find this a busy field in the near future.
Check out some of the companies working on this.
Doctors are scrambling to implement the mandate to "digitize" their records and this may be an opportunity.
I have been assisting local docs in their offices, it is interesting.
Some of the systems they are using are genuine antiques ( I am working on getting some of the data from a 15 year old Unix machine, it is still spinning and has a "huge" 100 meg hd with patient information in a proprietary format!).
A real challenge will be getting all the new medical records systems to talk to each other and transfer information, integrate lab tests into the data base and so on.
Google has a "medical record" online system which is very clumsy, and if this is the best they can do there is room for real innovation in this field.
Dr B</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370095</id>
	<title>Re:Fuck You</title>
	<author>rusty0101</author>
	<datestamp>1245264900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're presuming that a person in an entry level job at a company who's software or hardware you have been using for some arbitrary amount of time, (5 min to 5 years) knows more about the issue that you're encountering right now, than you've been able to discern.</p><p>Yes, that is what they signed up to do. Hopefully they have a usable dataset of historical problems and solutions that they can access, and know how to search, that will give them a fast and easy solution to your issue.</p><p>The reality is that at most help desks you get a computer, an introduction to the application you are supporting, and a walk through on how to create a ticket. If you're lucky, you learn how to make the phone system do what you need it to do. If you're very lucky, the ticketing system is search able for more than a history of the tickets you've touched. If someone brilliant at the company you are working for has taken the time and put in the effort, you have a web based search tool available that will go through a data set that you and your peers provide input into, identifying what a problem does, and how to resolve it, including telling the user that it is a known flaw in the application and that it is being worked on if that is the appropriate response.</p><p>Also if you are very lucky, there are people looking at the systems that people are reporting issues on, and are actively working on replacing equipment with a defined history of problems, and software that has been updated solving known problems. In all to many cases, the company involved thinks that it's cheaper to just let the help desk monkey take the calls, and send out people to service the equipment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're presuming that a person in an entry level job at a company who 's software or hardware you have been using for some arbitrary amount of time , ( 5 min to 5 years ) knows more about the issue that you 're encountering right now , than you 've been able to discern.Yes , that is what they signed up to do .
Hopefully they have a usable dataset of historical problems and solutions that they can access , and know how to search , that will give them a fast and easy solution to your issue.The reality is that at most help desks you get a computer , an introduction to the application you are supporting , and a walk through on how to create a ticket .
If you 're lucky , you learn how to make the phone system do what you need it to do .
If you 're very lucky , the ticketing system is search able for more than a history of the tickets you 've touched .
If someone brilliant at the company you are working for has taken the time and put in the effort , you have a web based search tool available that will go through a data set that you and your peers provide input into , identifying what a problem does , and how to resolve it , including telling the user that it is a known flaw in the application and that it is being worked on if that is the appropriate response.Also if you are very lucky , there are people looking at the systems that people are reporting issues on , and are actively working on replacing equipment with a defined history of problems , and software that has been updated solving known problems .
In all to many cases , the company involved thinks that it 's cheaper to just let the help desk monkey take the calls , and send out people to service the equipment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're presuming that a person in an entry level job at a company who's software or hardware you have been using for some arbitrary amount of time, (5 min to 5 years) knows more about the issue that you're encountering right now, than you've been able to discern.Yes, that is what they signed up to do.
Hopefully they have a usable dataset of historical problems and solutions that they can access, and know how to search, that will give them a fast and easy solution to your issue.The reality is that at most help desks you get a computer, an introduction to the application you are supporting, and a walk through on how to create a ticket.
If you're lucky, you learn how to make the phone system do what you need it to do.
If you're very lucky, the ticketing system is search able for more than a history of the tickets you've touched.
If someone brilliant at the company you are working for has taken the time and put in the effort, you have a web based search tool available that will go through a data set that you and your peers provide input into, identifying what a problem does, and how to resolve it, including telling the user that it is a known flaw in the application and that it is being worked on if that is the appropriate response.Also if you are very lucky, there are people looking at the systems that people are reporting issues on, and are actively working on replacing equipment with a defined history of problems, and software that has been updated solving known problems.
In all to many cases, the company involved thinks that it's cheaper to just let the help desk monkey take the calls, and send out people to service the equipment.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369855</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28375703</id>
	<title>Re:Ugh</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245346800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Freedom's just another word for nothing else to lose" - Janice Joplin</p><p>"Oh freedom, ah yeah freedom, that's just some people talking.  Your prison is walking through this world all alone" - Eagles "Desperado"</p><p>The above suggestion works when you're in your 20's - but when you're ready for real meaning and giving in your life, you'll need something more...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Freedom 's just another word for nothing else to lose " - Janice Joplin " Oh freedom , ah yeah freedom , that 's just some people talking .
Your prison is walking through this world all alone " - Eagles " Desperado " The above suggestion works when you 're in your 20 's - but when you 're ready for real meaning and giving in your life , you 'll need something more.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Freedom's just another word for nothing else to lose" - Janice Joplin"Oh freedom, ah yeah freedom, that's just some people talking.
Your prison is walking through this world all alone" - Eagles "Desperado"The above suggestion works when you're in your 20's - but when you're ready for real meaning and giving in your life, you'll need something more...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369673</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369669</id>
	<title>Distractions normal. Support is part of other jobs</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245260040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hate to break it to you but you won't necessarily get away from distractions and you may not entirely move away from support. Every job I've ever worked in included distractions and some amount of support work.</p><p>I currently work as a software developer but I also work to troubleshoot the existing systems, and I do take second tier customer calls (so less problems, but usually harder ones). I even work shifts and do on-call support. My job's a good one - prestigeous, reasonable pay so I'm not complaining.</p><p>That's not to say I would rather be on a help desk, or that you shouldn't try to better yourself. Just make sure your expectations are realistic.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hate to break it to you but you wo n't necessarily get away from distractions and you may not entirely move away from support .
Every job I 've ever worked in included distractions and some amount of support work.I currently work as a software developer but I also work to troubleshoot the existing systems , and I do take second tier customer calls ( so less problems , but usually harder ones ) .
I even work shifts and do on-call support .
My job 's a good one - prestigeous , reasonable pay so I 'm not complaining.That 's not to say I would rather be on a help desk , or that you should n't try to better yourself .
Just make sure your expectations are realistic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hate to break it to you but you won't necessarily get away from distractions and you may not entirely move away from support.
Every job I've ever worked in included distractions and some amount of support work.I currently work as a software developer but I also work to troubleshoot the existing systems, and I do take second tier customer calls (so less problems, but usually harder ones).
I even work shifts and do on-call support.
My job's a good one - prestigeous, reasonable pay so I'm not complaining.That's not to say I would rather be on a help desk, or that you shouldn't try to better yourself.
Just make sure your expectations are realistic.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370081</id>
	<title>simple and practical solution</title>
	<author>aardvark007</author>
	<datestamp>1245264720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If I were in your position, here is what I would do:<br>1) Find your dream job.  Search job postings non-stop for a while.  Figure out what which career you would enjoy the most.<br>2) Study the minimum and desired qualifications for each job.<br>3) Obtain the minimum and desired qualifications for each job.  (Put an emphasis on written and oral communication skills)<br>4) Study the interview process (specific to your field of choice) and make friends/family give you mock interviews.<br>5) Apply for jobs.  Remember to be optimistic and respectful.  Don't appear desperate.  Customize your resume for each application and write a custom cover letter for each application submission.  Do not lie on your resume or you will be embarrassed during the interview.</p><p>Is a degree worth the time, effort, and money?  If all of the job postings for your dream job require a degree, then absolutely.  If not, then I think you know the answer.</p><p>Remember to take the initiative to acquire new skills and master them.<br>Good luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If I were in your position , here is what I would do : 1 ) Find your dream job .
Search job postings non-stop for a while .
Figure out what which career you would enjoy the most.2 ) Study the minimum and desired qualifications for each job.3 ) Obtain the minimum and desired qualifications for each job .
( Put an emphasis on written and oral communication skills ) 4 ) Study the interview process ( specific to your field of choice ) and make friends/family give you mock interviews.5 ) Apply for jobs .
Remember to be optimistic and respectful .
Do n't appear desperate .
Customize your resume for each application and write a custom cover letter for each application submission .
Do not lie on your resume or you will be embarrassed during the interview.Is a degree worth the time , effort , and money ?
If all of the job postings for your dream job require a degree , then absolutely .
If not , then I think you know the answer.Remember to take the initiative to acquire new skills and master them.Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I were in your position, here is what I would do:1) Find your dream job.
Search job postings non-stop for a while.
Figure out what which career you would enjoy the most.2) Study the minimum and desired qualifications for each job.3) Obtain the minimum and desired qualifications for each job.
(Put an emphasis on written and oral communication skills)4) Study the interview process (specific to your field of choice) and make friends/family give you mock interviews.5) Apply for jobs.
Remember to be optimistic and respectful.
Don't appear desperate.
Customize your resume for each application and write a custom cover letter for each application submission.
Do not lie on your resume or you will be embarrassed during the interview.Is a degree worth the time, effort, and money?
If all of the job postings for your dream job require a degree, then absolutely.
If not, then I think you know the answer.Remember to take the initiative to acquire new skills and master them.Good luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369587</id>
	<title>What degree do you have?</title>
	<author>GameGod0</author>
	<datestamp>1245259440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Now's a great time to do your MSc because you can weather the economic storm in academia and pray that the job market will be better when you're out. Heck, you might even get funding so it won't be as much of a financial burden.<br><nobr> <wbr></nobr>...<br>
But that said - What degree do you have that left you stuck on the frontlines of an IT helpdesk? If you don't have a BSc, speak now... (Formal education IS a go</htmltext>
<tokenext>Now 's a great time to do your MSc because you can weather the economic storm in academia and pray that the job market will be better when you 're out .
Heck , you might even get funding so it wo n't be as much of a financial burden .
.. . But that said - What degree do you have that left you stuck on the frontlines of an IT helpdesk ?
If you do n't have a BSc , speak now... ( Formal education IS a go</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now's a great time to do your MSc because you can weather the economic storm in academia and pray that the job market will be better when you're out.
Heck, you might even get funding so it won't be as much of a financial burden.
...
But that said - What degree do you have that left you stuck on the frontlines of an IT helpdesk?
If you don't have a BSc, speak now... (Formal education IS a go</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28377049</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>denobug</author>
	<datestamp>1245351900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I really like what you have said, uptownguy.  You cannot really do well in your job if you don't have a passion for it.  Yet you don't really want to work on your hobby as your job to ruin your life.
<br> <br>
Anywork that is worth doing usually have a part where no one wants to do.  That's what they pay people for.  There's also plenty of technology oriented job that is not part of IT organization.
<br> <br>
My group does industrial automation for a mid-to-large energy company and we just hired a cybersecurity consultant who has extensive background of IT support, network deployment and maintenance, as well as plenty of network security experience.  Yet he will have to learn all about the backgrounds of industrial automations and understand our roles (as well as our equipments) and our priorities, which can be quite different when comparing to straight IT support.  Eventhough every one of us in the group are competent in general IT functions we sure appreciate to have someone who knows even more than we do working with us.  I'm sure he is excited to be in a different position and solving problems from a totally different angle.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I really like what you have said , uptownguy .
You can not really do well in your job if you do n't have a passion for it .
Yet you do n't really want to work on your hobby as your job to ruin your life .
Anywork that is worth doing usually have a part where no one wants to do .
That 's what they pay people for .
There 's also plenty of technology oriented job that is not part of IT organization .
My group does industrial automation for a mid-to-large energy company and we just hired a cybersecurity consultant who has extensive background of IT support , network deployment and maintenance , as well as plenty of network security experience .
Yet he will have to learn all about the backgrounds of industrial automations and understand our roles ( as well as our equipments ) and our priorities , which can be quite different when comparing to straight IT support .
Eventhough every one of us in the group are competent in general IT functions we sure appreciate to have someone who knows even more than we do working with us .
I 'm sure he is excited to be in a different position and solving problems from a totally different angle .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I really like what you have said, uptownguy.
You cannot really do well in your job if you don't have a passion for it.
Yet you don't really want to work on your hobby as your job to ruin your life.
Anywork that is worth doing usually have a part where no one wants to do.
That's what they pay people for.
There's also plenty of technology oriented job that is not part of IT organization.
My group does industrial automation for a mid-to-large energy company and we just hired a cybersecurity consultant who has extensive background of IT support, network deployment and maintenance, as well as plenty of network security experience.
Yet he will have to learn all about the backgrounds of industrial automations and understand our roles (as well as our equipments) and our priorities, which can be quite different when comparing to straight IT support.
Eventhough every one of us in the group are competent in general IT functions we sure appreciate to have someone who knows even more than we do working with us.
I'm sure he is excited to be in a different position and solving problems from a totally different angle.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369913</id>
	<title>Re:What degree do you have?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245262620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm making 100k USD a year as a C# programmer (Financial apps, architectural documents etc) and I have no formal education, selftaught. Went java @ 16 freelance programming for web, started as a sysadmin later at two very large businesses/unis, then went to teaching social delinquents and people with low social skills computer building and management then went back to programming web, then applications and then where I am now for last 2.5 years. In the last 1.5 years my pay increased by about 30.000 dollars by me situating myself at a good position in the firm and building core-skills and info only few others there have.</p><p>Personally I think experience and selftaught, open-source projects and what not will get you much further faster than an education will.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm making 100k USD a year as a C # programmer ( Financial apps , architectural documents etc ) and I have no formal education , selftaught .
Went java @ 16 freelance programming for web , started as a sysadmin later at two very large businesses/unis , then went to teaching social delinquents and people with low social skills computer building and management then went back to programming web , then applications and then where I am now for last 2.5 years .
In the last 1.5 years my pay increased by about 30.000 dollars by me situating myself at a good position in the firm and building core-skills and info only few others there have.Personally I think experience and selftaught , open-source projects and what not will get you much further faster than an education will .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm making 100k USD a year as a C# programmer (Financial apps, architectural documents etc) and I have no formal education, selftaught.
Went java @ 16 freelance programming for web, started as a sysadmin later at two very large businesses/unis, then went to teaching social delinquents and people with low social skills computer building and management then went back to programming web, then applications and then where I am now for last 2.5 years.
In the last 1.5 years my pay increased by about 30.000 dollars by me situating myself at a good position in the firm and building core-skills and info only few others there have.Personally I think experience and selftaught, open-source projects and what not will get you much further faster than an education will.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369587</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370049</id>
	<title>Re:Ugh</title>
	<author>antdude</author>
	<datestamp>1245264300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Geeks/Nerds, girls, and sex? LOL. J/K.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Geeks/Nerds , girls , and sex ?
LOL. J/K .
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Geeks/Nerds, girls, and sex?
LOL. J/K.
;)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369673</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370297</id>
	<title>If you're passionate about technology</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245268080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>- If you're passionate about technology, development, databases, etc. then by all means get a Computer Science degree and get your foot in the door of a larger company with more opportunity. Look forward to a career of constantly learning new technologies and being good at it because it's what you love.</p><p>- If technology is not your passion and you don't have an interest in continual self-education, why not get out of IT and pursue a different field that better fits your interests and ambitions?</p><p>This advice from a 40 year old programmer who still loves his job -- Cheers!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>- If you 're passionate about technology , development , databases , etc .
then by all means get a Computer Science degree and get your foot in the door of a larger company with more opportunity .
Look forward to a career of constantly learning new technologies and being good at it because it 's what you love.- If technology is not your passion and you do n't have an interest in continual self-education , why not get out of IT and pursue a different field that better fits your interests and ambitions ? This advice from a 40 year old programmer who still loves his job -- Cheers !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>- If you're passionate about technology, development, databases, etc.
then by all means get a Computer Science degree and get your foot in the door of a larger company with more opportunity.
Look forward to a career of constantly learning new technologies and being good at it because it's what you love.- If technology is not your passion and you don't have an interest in continual self-education, why not get out of IT and pursue a different field that better fits your interests and ambitions?This advice from a 40 year old programmer who still loves his job -- Cheers!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28377485</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245353340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First of all, thanks for taking the time to write such an interesting post.  I initially tried to address your points individually but the words aren't flowing well today so I'll just try to dump it all out.</p><p>I guess I want to remain in IT because despite how much they anger me currently, I do enjoy computers and the associated technology.  I do still feel that sensation of awe when I walk into the server room and see all the cables and das blinkenlights.  I can't see myself working in anything that's not IT-related.  That said, sometimes I do question if IT is right for me and if my true calling is something else entirely.  It's interesting that you mention working with your hands as after graduating I worked in the trades.  I dug ditches, laid concrete, redecorated houses among other things, and I do know that feeling of satisfaction you get from taking something shit and turning it into something good through your own grit and sweat. But doing that short-term to pay off the student loan is one thing, a career is something else entirely.</p><p>I'm not money-driven at all, and am definitely not in IT for the money. I don't even earn that much in my current role anyway (not that I'm saying I deserve more).  I'd rather be doing something I love for 15K instead of feeling like I do now in a job that was 45K.  But I don't know what I love, that's the main issue.  I don't know much about anything any more.  Nothing much excites me or inspires me, and I mostly just feel like going to sleep.  I could take the money I've saved and backpack around the world for a year, but that doesn't seem as attractive to me as everyone else.  Besides, I'd rather sort out my 'career' first instead of putting it off a year to run away from my problems halfway around the globe.</p><p>I like the idea of building an arcade cabinet as a hobby project.  That's working with the hands, and has fun aspects to it - carpentry, electronics, computing.  But to do that I need tools and space, and for tools and space I need a garage or basement.  And for a garage or basement I need a house, and for a house I need a mortage, and for that I need a well-paying job, which needs a career plan, and you get the idea.  I know that every great journey begins with the smallest step, but I don't know in which direction to make the step, or I make the step and realise it's in the wrong direction.</p><p>Enjoying the ride is good advice but something I am struggling to deal with.  I feel as though I am not actually living, and that I need to do some things first before I start living a 'normal' life.  I don't feel part of life or the part of the people around me.  I feel as though everyone knows something that I don't, that they're in the treehouse and I can't climb the rope ladder. Sure, everyone has their difficulties and problems but they manage to somehow get through it.  They go to concerts, to sports matches, have sex, party, laugh, cry, take holidays abroad and generally <b>live</b>.  And while I do some of these things, it's not the same.  It feels almost fraudulent.</p><p>Didn't mean to get too heavy, but your post does invoke a lot of inward reflection I guess.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First of all , thanks for taking the time to write such an interesting post .
I initially tried to address your points individually but the words are n't flowing well today so I 'll just try to dump it all out.I guess I want to remain in IT because despite how much they anger me currently , I do enjoy computers and the associated technology .
I do still feel that sensation of awe when I walk into the server room and see all the cables and das blinkenlights .
I ca n't see myself working in anything that 's not IT-related .
That said , sometimes I do question if IT is right for me and if my true calling is something else entirely .
It 's interesting that you mention working with your hands as after graduating I worked in the trades .
I dug ditches , laid concrete , redecorated houses among other things , and I do know that feeling of satisfaction you get from taking something shit and turning it into something good through your own grit and sweat .
But doing that short-term to pay off the student loan is one thing , a career is something else entirely.I 'm not money-driven at all , and am definitely not in IT for the money .
I do n't even earn that much in my current role anyway ( not that I 'm saying I deserve more ) .
I 'd rather be doing something I love for 15K instead of feeling like I do now in a job that was 45K .
But I do n't know what I love , that 's the main issue .
I do n't know much about anything any more .
Nothing much excites me or inspires me , and I mostly just feel like going to sleep .
I could take the money I 've saved and backpack around the world for a year , but that does n't seem as attractive to me as everyone else .
Besides , I 'd rather sort out my 'career ' first instead of putting it off a year to run away from my problems halfway around the globe.I like the idea of building an arcade cabinet as a hobby project .
That 's working with the hands , and has fun aspects to it - carpentry , electronics , computing .
But to do that I need tools and space , and for tools and space I need a garage or basement .
And for a garage or basement I need a house , and for a house I need a mortage , and for that I need a well-paying job , which needs a career plan , and you get the idea .
I know that every great journey begins with the smallest step , but I do n't know in which direction to make the step , or I make the step and realise it 's in the wrong direction.Enjoying the ride is good advice but something I am struggling to deal with .
I feel as though I am not actually living , and that I need to do some things first before I start living a 'normal ' life .
I do n't feel part of life or the part of the people around me .
I feel as though everyone knows something that I do n't , that they 're in the treehouse and I ca n't climb the rope ladder .
Sure , everyone has their difficulties and problems but they manage to somehow get through it .
They go to concerts , to sports matches , have sex , party , laugh , cry , take holidays abroad and generally live .
And while I do some of these things , it 's not the same .
It feels almost fraudulent.Did n't mean to get too heavy , but your post does invoke a lot of inward reflection I guess .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First of all, thanks for taking the time to write such an interesting post.
I initially tried to address your points individually but the words aren't flowing well today so I'll just try to dump it all out.I guess I want to remain in IT because despite how much they anger me currently, I do enjoy computers and the associated technology.
I do still feel that sensation of awe when I walk into the server room and see all the cables and das blinkenlights.
I can't see myself working in anything that's not IT-related.
That said, sometimes I do question if IT is right for me and if my true calling is something else entirely.
It's interesting that you mention working with your hands as after graduating I worked in the trades.
I dug ditches, laid concrete, redecorated houses among other things, and I do know that feeling of satisfaction you get from taking something shit and turning it into something good through your own grit and sweat.
But doing that short-term to pay off the student loan is one thing, a career is something else entirely.I'm not money-driven at all, and am definitely not in IT for the money.
I don't even earn that much in my current role anyway (not that I'm saying I deserve more).
I'd rather be doing something I love for 15K instead of feeling like I do now in a job that was 45K.
But I don't know what I love, that's the main issue.
I don't know much about anything any more.
Nothing much excites me or inspires me, and I mostly just feel like going to sleep.
I could take the money I've saved and backpack around the world for a year, but that doesn't seem as attractive to me as everyone else.
Besides, I'd rather sort out my 'career' first instead of putting it off a year to run away from my problems halfway around the globe.I like the idea of building an arcade cabinet as a hobby project.
That's working with the hands, and has fun aspects to it - carpentry, electronics, computing.
But to do that I need tools and space, and for tools and space I need a garage or basement.
And for a garage or basement I need a house, and for a house I need a mortage, and for that I need a well-paying job, which needs a career plan, and you get the idea.
I know that every great journey begins with the smallest step, but I don't know in which direction to make the step, or I make the step and realise it's in the wrong direction.Enjoying the ride is good advice but something I am struggling to deal with.
I feel as though I am not actually living, and that I need to do some things first before I start living a 'normal' life.
I don't feel part of life or the part of the people around me.
I feel as though everyone knows something that I don't, that they're in the treehouse and I can't climb the rope ladder.
Sure, everyone has their difficulties and problems but they manage to somehow get through it.
They go to concerts, to sports matches, have sex, party, laugh, cry, take holidays abroad and generally live.
And while I do some of these things, it's not the same.
It feels almost fraudulent.Didn't mean to get too heavy, but your post does invoke a lot of inward reflection I guess.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370809</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245316140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;Secondly: What do you want to do with your life?</p><p>You make some great points, but I disagree with this.  This is baby-boomer baloney.  It's rationalizing selfishness.  There's no harm in it if "what you want to do with your life" is something worthwhile or even noble.  But for most people, it's just a code word from socially acceptable narcissism.  Me me me, is what it breaks down to.</p><p>But you give a lot of very heart-felt advice, most of it good.  That's a nice thing to do for a guy who seems to be at his wits end at work.</p><p>Take pride in your work, even if it sucks.  Not everyone get to customize their career to their exact liking.  It's not important.  Look everyday for problems at work that need to be solved, and in between calls come up with a way to solve them \_permanantly\_ -- as in, the problem never ever happens again or if it does we run this shell script from menu option 3 and poof it's fixed as if by magic.  If you steadily work towards long-term solutions, not just putting out fires as they light, then the work gets easier and morale may even improve among the users.</p><p>I can relate to your frustration though.  I worked at a place that fixed everything manually, did no scripting or automation, and never seriously did preventitive measures to head problems off before they start.  That got old.  I never figured out how to improve things, sadly.  But if I had a chance to do it all over, I'd work harder on my own conduct, my own skills &amp; expertise, and really buckle down on doing a 1st-rate job, even if the work situation wasn't 100\% to my liking.  Let me tell you, it never will be.  There's always something wrong, otherwise there'd be nothing to fix!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; Secondly : What do you want to do with your life ? You make some great points , but I disagree with this .
This is baby-boomer baloney .
It 's rationalizing selfishness .
There 's no harm in it if " what you want to do with your life " is something worthwhile or even noble .
But for most people , it 's just a code word from socially acceptable narcissism .
Me me me , is what it breaks down to.But you give a lot of very heart-felt advice , most of it good .
That 's a nice thing to do for a guy who seems to be at his wits end at work.Take pride in your work , even if it sucks .
Not everyone get to customize their career to their exact liking .
It 's not important .
Look everyday for problems at work that need to be solved , and in between calls come up with a way to solve them \ _permanantly \ _ -- as in , the problem never ever happens again or if it does we run this shell script from menu option 3 and poof it 's fixed as if by magic .
If you steadily work towards long-term solutions , not just putting out fires as they light , then the work gets easier and morale may even improve among the users.I can relate to your frustration though .
I worked at a place that fixed everything manually , did no scripting or automation , and never seriously did preventitive measures to head problems off before they start .
That got old .
I never figured out how to improve things , sadly .
But if I had a chance to do it all over , I 'd work harder on my own conduct , my own skills &amp; expertise , and really buckle down on doing a 1st-rate job , even if the work situation was n't 100 \ % to my liking .
Let me tell you , it never will be .
There 's always something wrong , otherwise there 'd be nothing to fix !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;Secondly: What do you want to do with your life?You make some great points, but I disagree with this.
This is baby-boomer baloney.
It's rationalizing selfishness.
There's no harm in it if "what you want to do with your life" is something worthwhile or even noble.
But for most people, it's just a code word from socially acceptable narcissism.
Me me me, is what it breaks down to.But you give a lot of very heart-felt advice, most of it good.
That's a nice thing to do for a guy who seems to be at his wits end at work.Take pride in your work, even if it sucks.
Not everyone get to customize their career to their exact liking.
It's not important.
Look everyday for problems at work that need to be solved, and in between calls come up with a way to solve them \_permanantly\_ -- as in, the problem never ever happens again or if it does we run this shell script from menu option 3 and poof it's fixed as if by magic.
If you steadily work towards long-term solutions, not just putting out fires as they light, then the work gets easier and morale may even improve among the users.I can relate to your frustration though.
I worked at a place that fixed everything manually, did no scripting or automation, and never seriously did preventitive measures to head problems off before they start.
That got old.
I never figured out how to improve things, sadly.
But if I had a chance to do it all over, I'd work harder on my own conduct, my own skills &amp; expertise, and really buckle down on doing a 1st-rate job, even if the work situation wasn't 100\% to my liking.
Let me tell you, it never will be.
There's always something wrong, otherwise there'd be nothing to fix!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>uptownguy</author>
	<datestamp>1245263940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>IT is a support function, deal with it or find a different career field.</i> </p><p>10.  This<br>20.  Goto 10</p><p>Seriously, having spent 15+ years in IT in one role or another (helpdesk, helpdesk manager, helpdesk product manager, presales support, operations manager, consultant) I've seen my fair share of things.  I've been on top of the world and on top of my game.  I've been burnt out and taken a year off to work in a coffee shop (best thing I ever did, by the way.)  I've hired hundreds of support techs.  And as I am sitting in a hotel room 1000 miles from home, have a raging case of insomnia and am feeling a little philosophical tonight, I have a word or wisdom or two that I want to share.</p><p>First of all: <b>Why</b> do you "want to remain in IT"?  Is it because you enjoy technology?  If that's the case, perhaps you should <i>consider a different field</i>?  There's no law that says you have to make your hobby your job.  In fact, you run the risk of spoiling the joy that drew you to it in the first place.  If you are in technology because you love playing with what's new, keep reading Slashdot and buy the toys that interest you.  Then go discover what you want to <b>do</b> with your life and do that.</p><p>Secondly: What <b>do</b> you want to do with your life?  Does it involve serving other people?  If it does: congratulations!  IT is all about service.  Seriously.  Whether you are designing an application or supporting 200 lawyers/support staff, you are there to serve.  You could get all gross and use old-fashioned phrases such as "cost center" or you could get all fancy and start to see the service you do as part of a larger path. <a href="http://www.lewisrichmond.com/work\_reviews.html" title="lewisrichmond.com">This book changed some of my thinking on that.</a> [lewisrichmond.com].  Either way, you can't escape the fact:  <b>IT is about service.</b>  <i>Secret hint: Once you get this, you start to love your job.</i> </p><p>Thirdly: Have you ever really thought about what you want to do with your life?  I mean <b>really thought</b> about it?  If not, perhaps you should take a year off and do something completely random.  You talked about "moving back home" as an option which means you probably don't have a spouse/kids which means that you have the freedom to do something bold.  Try something completely different.  Work with your hands.  I took a year off and worked in a coffee shop.  It did wonders for my work ethic and sense of what service really is.  (It also reminded me of what it is like to <i>really</i> make next to nothing.)  Working with your hands is satisfying.  You might just enjoy it more than you thought.  <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24labor-t.html?\_r=3&amp;pagewanted=all" title="nytimes.com">This article</a> [nytimes.com] in last month's New York Times makes the case for working with your hands.  You should read it.  Really.</p><p>Fourthly: Is it about the money?  Be honest with yourself.  Are you in IT because of the money?  OK.  In this field, we make more than people with equivalent amounts of education might make.  At least a little more. For now.  That probably won't last forever.  But are you wanting to move into "databases" or "web development" because you think there will be more money there?  Maybe if this was 1996 that would be true.  Yes, there <b>is</b> still money to be made there.  If you are talented and willing to work hard and be passionate about what you do.  But that's sort of true of anything.  A little luck and a lot of passion go a long way.  (Or is it a lot of luck and a little passion?)</p><p>Finally: Relax.  Unless you are extremely fortunate, you have <b>no idea</b> what you are going to do with the rest of your life.  Few of us do.  You'll bounce around and external situations and circumstances will dictate most of it.  New inventions.  Sick parents.  A spouse or child who changes your perspective.  Wars.  Epidemics.  The unknown.  Who knows what will happen next?  Stop thinking so much.  <b>Enjoy the ride.</b>  If you feel stuck, listen to yourself.  Learn to listen to yourself.  Ask yourself what you really want to</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>IT is a support function , deal with it or find a different career field .
10. This20 .
Goto 10Seriously , having spent 15 + years in IT in one role or another ( helpdesk , helpdesk manager , helpdesk product manager , presales support , operations manager , consultant ) I 've seen my fair share of things .
I 've been on top of the world and on top of my game .
I 've been burnt out and taken a year off to work in a coffee shop ( best thing I ever did , by the way .
) I 've hired hundreds of support techs .
And as I am sitting in a hotel room 1000 miles from home , have a raging case of insomnia and am feeling a little philosophical tonight , I have a word or wisdom or two that I want to share.First of all : Why do you " want to remain in IT " ?
Is it because you enjoy technology ?
If that 's the case , perhaps you should consider a different field ?
There 's no law that says you have to make your hobby your job .
In fact , you run the risk of spoiling the joy that drew you to it in the first place .
If you are in technology because you love playing with what 's new , keep reading Slashdot and buy the toys that interest you .
Then go discover what you want to do with your life and do that.Secondly : What do you want to do with your life ?
Does it involve serving other people ?
If it does : congratulations !
IT is all about service .
Seriously. Whether you are designing an application or supporting 200 lawyers/support staff , you are there to serve .
You could get all gross and use old-fashioned phrases such as " cost center " or you could get all fancy and start to see the service you do as part of a larger path .
This book changed some of my thinking on that .
[ lewisrichmond.com ] . Either way , you ca n't escape the fact : IT is about service .
Secret hint : Once you get this , you start to love your job .
Thirdly : Have you ever really thought about what you want to do with your life ?
I mean really thought about it ?
If not , perhaps you should take a year off and do something completely random .
You talked about " moving back home " as an option which means you probably do n't have a spouse/kids which means that you have the freedom to do something bold .
Try something completely different .
Work with your hands .
I took a year off and worked in a coffee shop .
It did wonders for my work ethic and sense of what service really is .
( It also reminded me of what it is like to really make next to nothing .
) Working with your hands is satisfying .
You might just enjoy it more than you thought .
This article [ nytimes.com ] in last month 's New York Times makes the case for working with your hands .
You should read it .
Really.Fourthly : Is it about the money ?
Be honest with yourself .
Are you in IT because of the money ?
OK. In this field , we make more than people with equivalent amounts of education might make .
At least a little more .
For now .
That probably wo n't last forever .
But are you wanting to move into " databases " or " web development " because you think there will be more money there ?
Maybe if this was 1996 that would be true .
Yes , there is still money to be made there .
If you are talented and willing to work hard and be passionate about what you do .
But that 's sort of true of anything .
A little luck and a lot of passion go a long way .
( Or is it a lot of luck and a little passion ?
) Finally : Relax .
Unless you are extremely fortunate , you have no idea what you are going to do with the rest of your life .
Few of us do .
You 'll bounce around and external situations and circumstances will dictate most of it .
New inventions .
Sick parents .
A spouse or child who changes your perspective .
Wars. Epidemics .
The unknown .
Who knows what will happen next ?
Stop thinking so much .
Enjoy the ride .
If you feel stuck , listen to yourself .
Learn to listen to yourself .
Ask yourself what you really want to</tokentext>
<sentencetext> IT is a support function, deal with it or find a different career field.
10.  This20.
Goto 10Seriously, having spent 15+ years in IT in one role or another (helpdesk, helpdesk manager, helpdesk product manager, presales support, operations manager, consultant) I've seen my fair share of things.
I've been on top of the world and on top of my game.
I've been burnt out and taken a year off to work in a coffee shop (best thing I ever did, by the way.
)  I've hired hundreds of support techs.
And as I am sitting in a hotel room 1000 miles from home, have a raging case of insomnia and am feeling a little philosophical tonight, I have a word or wisdom or two that I want to share.First of all: Why do you "want to remain in IT"?
Is it because you enjoy technology?
If that's the case, perhaps you should consider a different field?
There's no law that says you have to make your hobby your job.
In fact, you run the risk of spoiling the joy that drew you to it in the first place.
If you are in technology because you love playing with what's new, keep reading Slashdot and buy the toys that interest you.
Then go discover what you want to do with your life and do that.Secondly: What do you want to do with your life?
Does it involve serving other people?
If it does: congratulations!
IT is all about service.
Seriously.  Whether you are designing an application or supporting 200 lawyers/support staff, you are there to serve.
You could get all gross and use old-fashioned phrases such as "cost center" or you could get all fancy and start to see the service you do as part of a larger path.
This book changed some of my thinking on that.
[lewisrichmond.com].  Either way, you can't escape the fact:  IT is about service.
Secret hint: Once you get this, you start to love your job.
Thirdly: Have you ever really thought about what you want to do with your life?
I mean really thought about it?
If not, perhaps you should take a year off and do something completely random.
You talked about "moving back home" as an option which means you probably don't have a spouse/kids which means that you have the freedom to do something bold.
Try something completely different.
Work with your hands.
I took a year off and worked in a coffee shop.
It did wonders for my work ethic and sense of what service really is.
(It also reminded me of what it is like to really make next to nothing.
)  Working with your hands is satisfying.
You might just enjoy it more than you thought.
This article [nytimes.com] in last month's New York Times makes the case for working with your hands.
You should read it.
Really.Fourthly: Is it about the money?
Be honest with yourself.
Are you in IT because of the money?
OK.  In this field, we make more than people with equivalent amounts of education might make.
At least a little more.
For now.
That probably won't last forever.
But are you wanting to move into "databases" or "web development" because you think there will be more money there?
Maybe if this was 1996 that would be true.
Yes, there is still money to be made there.
If you are talented and willing to work hard and be passionate about what you do.
But that's sort of true of anything.
A little luck and a lot of passion go a long way.
(Or is it a lot of luck and a little passion?
)Finally: Relax.
Unless you are extremely fortunate, you have no idea what you are going to do with the rest of your life.
Few of us do.
You'll bounce around and external situations and circumstances will dictate most of it.
New inventions.
Sick parents.
A spouse or child who changes your perspective.
Wars.  Epidemics.
The unknown.
Who knows what will happen next?
Stop thinking so much.
Enjoy the ride.
If you feel stuck, listen to yourself.
Learn to listen to yourself.
Ask yourself what you really want to</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370021</id>
	<title>Jpbs suck when you hate them, less if you don't</title>
	<author>herksc</author>
	<datestamp>1245263820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>and with the weak job market it seems I can only move sideways into another support role</i> <br> <br>

This is not always a bad idea.  Even if there was room for progression at your current employer, if you do not enjoy working the helpdesk there, then you would not enjoy any IT position at that company.  Helpdesk can be OK, if there is someone else successfully working to improve the issues that you constantly get called for.  If you have an IT job with no user contact at all, then you are truly useless.<br> <br>

One problem in IT is that users and managers think that an IT department's job is only to fix problems. The real problem begins when an IT department thinks the same thing!  Another is that people always expect managers to define their job, and managers are always looking for people that define their job.  After being in IT for almost 10 years, I now enjoy it (working for a small company helps).  I didn't enjoy it for the first few years.<br> <br>

In my opinion, IT is satisfying when you do this (not a complete list):<br>
1. Decide that helping users means developing relationships with them, and convincing them that you respect them (This is called "customer service")<br>
2. Decide that you are solely responsible for the company's use/lack of technology/systems<br>
3. Communicate to your manager what your job function is for<br>
4. Learn how your managers view their own job function<br>
5. Be proactive, find solutions/systems, and financially justify them on "paper"<br>
6. Work somewhere where your manager understands 1 through 5<br>
<br>
That said, if you can afford school and you enjoy it, then do that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>and with the weak job market it seems I can only move sideways into another support role This is not always a bad idea .
Even if there was room for progression at your current employer , if you do not enjoy working the helpdesk there , then you would not enjoy any IT position at that company .
Helpdesk can be OK , if there is someone else successfully working to improve the issues that you constantly get called for .
If you have an IT job with no user contact at all , then you are truly useless .
One problem in IT is that users and managers think that an IT department 's job is only to fix problems .
The real problem begins when an IT department thinks the same thing !
Another is that people always expect managers to define their job , and managers are always looking for people that define their job .
After being in IT for almost 10 years , I now enjoy it ( working for a small company helps ) .
I did n't enjoy it for the first few years .
In my opinion , IT is satisfying when you do this ( not a complete list ) : 1 .
Decide that helping users means developing relationships with them , and convincing them that you respect them ( This is called " customer service " ) 2 .
Decide that you are solely responsible for the company 's use/lack of technology/systems 3 .
Communicate to your manager what your job function is for 4 .
Learn how your managers view their own job function 5 .
Be proactive , find solutions/systems , and financially justify them on " paper " 6 .
Work somewhere where your manager understands 1 through 5 That said , if you can afford school and you enjoy it , then do that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and with the weak job market it seems I can only move sideways into another support role  

This is not always a bad idea.
Even if there was room for progression at your current employer, if you do not enjoy working the helpdesk there, then you would not enjoy any IT position at that company.
Helpdesk can be OK, if there is someone else successfully working to improve the issues that you constantly get called for.
If you have an IT job with no user contact at all, then you are truly useless.
One problem in IT is that users and managers think that an IT department's job is only to fix problems.
The real problem begins when an IT department thinks the same thing!
Another is that people always expect managers to define their job, and managers are always looking for people that define their job.
After being in IT for almost 10 years, I now enjoy it (working for a small company helps).
I didn't enjoy it for the first few years.
In my opinion, IT is satisfying when you do this (not a complete list):
1.
Decide that helping users means developing relationships with them, and convincing them that you respect them (This is called "customer service")
2.
Decide that you are solely responsible for the company's use/lack of technology/systems
3.
Communicate to your manager what your job function is for
4.
Learn how your managers view their own job function
5.
Be proactive, find solutions/systems, and financially justify them on "paper"
6.
Work somewhere where your manager understands 1 through 5

That said, if you can afford school and you enjoy it, then do that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374403</id>
	<title>Getting Beyond the Helldesk</title>
	<author>viralMeme</author>
	<datestamp>1245341580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>"Do any Slashdotters who have made it beyond the helpdesk have any knowledge or wisdom to impart? Is formal education a good avenue, or would I better off moving back home, getting a mindless but low-stress job, and teaching myself technologies in my free time?</i>"<br> <br>

Get out right now and start your own business. Attend start-your-own-business courses in the evening. Start a small repair/data recovery business with an Internet cafe/print service on the ground floor and build up a clientele base. If you can't afford a premises use your garage<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Do any Slashdotters who have made it beyond the helpdesk have any knowledge or wisdom to impart ?
Is formal education a good avenue , or would I better off moving back home , getting a mindless but low-stress job , and teaching myself technologies in my free time ?
" Get out right now and start your own business .
Attend start-your-own-business courses in the evening .
Start a small repair/data recovery business with an Internet cafe/print service on the ground floor and build up a clientele base .
If you ca n't afford a premises use your garage . .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Do any Slashdotters who have made it beyond the helpdesk have any knowledge or wisdom to impart?
Is formal education a good avenue, or would I better off moving back home, getting a mindless but low-stress job, and teaching myself technologies in my free time?
" 

Get out right now and start your own business.
Attend start-your-own-business courses in the evening.
Start a small repair/data recovery business with an Internet cafe/print service on the ground floor and build up a clientele base.
If you can't afford a premises use your garage ..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370559</id>
	<title>Start a startup</title>
	<author>dido</author>
	<datestamp>1245356880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You say you've got a bit of education of a graduate level under your belt?  Well, starting a startup might be a good idea, that is if you're the sort that doesn't have a family to support, a mortgage to pay, or some other long-term obligations that require a stable, reliable income.  <a href="http://www.paulgraham.com/badeconomy.html" title="paulgraham.com">Don't be too worried about the economy.</a> [paulgraham.com]  Sure, it's a difficult job too, founding a startup, but it's difficulty <i>on your terms</i>, and for many people that makes all the difference in the world.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You say you 've got a bit of education of a graduate level under your belt ?
Well , starting a startup might be a good idea , that is if you 're the sort that does n't have a family to support , a mortgage to pay , or some other long-term obligations that require a stable , reliable income .
Do n't be too worried about the economy .
[ paulgraham.com ] Sure , it 's a difficult job too , founding a startup , but it 's difficulty on your terms , and for many people that makes all the difference in the world .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You say you've got a bit of education of a graduate level under your belt?
Well, starting a startup might be a good idea, that is if you're the sort that doesn't have a family to support, a mortgage to pay, or some other long-term obligations that require a stable, reliable income.
Don't be too worried about the economy.
[paulgraham.com]  Sure, it's a difficult job too, founding a startup, but it's difficulty on your terms, and for many people that makes all the difference in the world.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28377495</id>
	<title>Master's CS</title>
	<author>scot4875</author>
	<datestamp>1245353400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This isn't really what the story author was asking, but I feel compelled to respond anyway, because it seems to be a common misconception.</p><p>A master's program in computer science should have absolutely nothing to do with web development.  Or database admin tasks.  Or Cisco hardware.  Or Linux security.  If I met someone claiming to have a "Master's in Computer Science for web development," I'd probably laugh at them and ask what scam institution they got it from.  All of these subjects are just trade skills -- they're the computer equivalents of plumbing or carpentry.  (Don't get me wrong though -- they're valuable skills.  They just aren't computer science.)</p><p>Computer science is designing a new algorithm to more efficiently lay out the box model that web pages use.  It is coming up with a new data structure that improves performance of database queries.  It is coming up with methods to automatically discover your network's spanning tree.  It's proving that the methods used for authentication are, in fact, secure.  Computer science is NOT programming.</p><p>I have a CS degree, and my current job as a web developer is certainly *not* computer science.</p><p>Of course, if the story's submitter hadn't spent so much time getting wasted in college and had taken things more seriously, he'd have known this.  But it's nice to know that the value of my degree is diluted by people like this who don't even know what their degree *means*.</p><p>--Jeremy</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is n't really what the story author was asking , but I feel compelled to respond anyway , because it seems to be a common misconception.A master 's program in computer science should have absolutely nothing to do with web development .
Or database admin tasks .
Or Cisco hardware .
Or Linux security .
If I met someone claiming to have a " Master 's in Computer Science for web development , " I 'd probably laugh at them and ask what scam institution they got it from .
All of these subjects are just trade skills -- they 're the computer equivalents of plumbing or carpentry .
( Do n't get me wrong though -- they 're valuable skills .
They just are n't computer science .
) Computer science is designing a new algorithm to more efficiently lay out the box model that web pages use .
It is coming up with a new data structure that improves performance of database queries .
It is coming up with methods to automatically discover your network 's spanning tree .
It 's proving that the methods used for authentication are , in fact , secure .
Computer science is NOT programming.I have a CS degree , and my current job as a web developer is certainly * not * computer science.Of course , if the story 's submitter had n't spent so much time getting wasted in college and had taken things more seriously , he 'd have known this .
But it 's nice to know that the value of my degree is diluted by people like this who do n't even know what their degree * means * .--Jeremy</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This isn't really what the story author was asking, but I feel compelled to respond anyway, because it seems to be a common misconception.A master's program in computer science should have absolutely nothing to do with web development.
Or database admin tasks.
Or Cisco hardware.
Or Linux security.
If I met someone claiming to have a "Master's in Computer Science for web development," I'd probably laugh at them and ask what scam institution they got it from.
All of these subjects are just trade skills -- they're the computer equivalents of plumbing or carpentry.
(Don't get me wrong though -- they're valuable skills.
They just aren't computer science.
)Computer science is designing a new algorithm to more efficiently lay out the box model that web pages use.
It is coming up with a new data structure that improves performance of database queries.
It is coming up with methods to automatically discover your network's spanning tree.
It's proving that the methods used for authentication are, in fact, secure.
Computer science is NOT programming.I have a CS degree, and my current job as a web developer is certainly *not* computer science.Of course, if the story's submitter hadn't spent so much time getting wasted in college and had taken things more seriously, he'd have known this.
But it's nice to know that the value of my degree is diluted by people like this who don't even know what their degree *means*.--Jeremy</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372531</id>
	<title>This isn't really a question.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245333120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is little substitute for ambition.  Education helps, but an intelligent individual need only identify what it is that they want to do and make the effort to realize that goal.  If the position you are looking for requires an advanced degree, then that is what you must do.  I've done very well for myself without any degrees, lots of credits, just no diplomas.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is little substitute for ambition .
Education helps , but an intelligent individual need only identify what it is that they want to do and make the effort to realize that goal .
If the position you are looking for requires an advanced degree , then that is what you must do .
I 've done very well for myself without any degrees , lots of credits , just no diplomas .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is little substitute for ambition.
Education helps, but an intelligent individual need only identify what it is that they want to do and make the effort to realize that goal.
If the position you are looking for requires an advanced degree, then that is what you must do.
I've done very well for myself without any degrees, lots of credits, just no diplomas.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28377741</id>
	<title>short answer: YES</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245354060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But make sure you decide carefully which skillsets to give priority to. I'd recommend having a look at <a href="http://www.ted.com/" title="ted.com" rel="nofollow">TED</a> [ted.com], MMPORG / gaming, and Second Life before deciding. Make sure income is sure because if you decide to junk a job and then lose the other, you might end up hating your decision or yourself, which isn't justified looking at the multitude of amazing technologies coming up and much lesser people focussing on those at the moment. Combinatorial genomics isn;t as bad as it sounds, for example - it may need programming, but teaching it to a lot of people needs visualisations and programming of simulations and animations - those things are where you can make a career of quality.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But make sure you decide carefully which skillsets to give priority to .
I 'd recommend having a look at TED [ ted.com ] , MMPORG / gaming , and Second Life before deciding .
Make sure income is sure because if you decide to junk a job and then lose the other , you might end up hating your decision or yourself , which is n't justified looking at the multitude of amazing technologies coming up and much lesser people focussing on those at the moment .
Combinatorial genomics isn ; t as bad as it sounds , for example - it may need programming , but teaching it to a lot of people needs visualisations and programming of simulations and animations - those things are where you can make a career of quality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But make sure you decide carefully which skillsets to give priority to.
I'd recommend having a look at TED [ted.com], MMPORG / gaming, and Second Life before deciding.
Make sure income is sure because if you decide to junk a job and then lose the other, you might end up hating your decision or yourself, which isn't justified looking at the multitude of amazing technologies coming up and much lesser people focussing on those at the moment.
Combinatorial genomics isn;t as bad as it sounds, for example - it may need programming, but teaching it to a lot of people needs visualisations and programming of simulations and animations - those things are where you can make a career of quality.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373243</id>
	<title>Re:School is for people who can't read</title>
	<author>pz</author>
	<datestamp>1245336780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There are a few excellent reasons to go to school:</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -  your field has you using multi-million dollar equipment that you simply cannot access outside of the academic world</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -  you don't know what you want, and need someone to plot a course through life for you</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -  you can't read and need to be taught the alphabet</p></div><p>You've missed the most important one, no, strike that, two reasons to go to school.  The primary reasons that schools exist at all.</p><p>Reason 1: Most people need to have a curriculum laid out in front of them by someone who is smarter, often older, and wiser than them (because, do I really have to point this out?, they are looking to study the subject, and by definition cannot know enough about it to design a proper curriculum themselves).  In addition, most people also benefit very well from an external source of motivation: if someone else tells you, "do this by Tuesday at 10am," most -- not all, but most -- people will be more apt to get it done by the prescribed time than if they do it themselves.  Maintaining motivation, especially over the months-to-years timescale, is very difficult for all but a few.</p><p>Reason 2: Most people benefit greatly from being able to discuss new ideas with other people and getting feedback from people who are more experienced.  If you're not at school, who's going to grade your problem sets and quizzes?  Who are you going to discuss the pros and cons of different solutions?  Yes, a select few people are talented enough to not need this (and I've been fortunate enough to have attended schools where I got to see these stars shine very brightly, but even they benefit from exchanging ideas with their select group of peers) but most people are not like that.  Most people learn better with others who are doing the same thing.</p><p>The rest of the parent comment rails on how educational experiences are all too outdated to be worth anything.  The only thing I can say is that it sounds like the parent poster had a very different educational experience than me.  And, also, that the parent poster missed the biggest reason of all to go to school, which is not to learn a subject but to learn how to <i>think</i>.  In my undergraduate program, for example, there was no course specifically in one language or another (why bother when, as my work-study boss put it, you can pick up C over the weekend?), and, though the program, we were expected to learn about a dozen different languages along the way.   We weren't trained in C, Java, Perl, or whatever flavor of the month, but, instead, trained <i>how to learn a language and quickly become proficient in it</i>.  That knowledge is timeless.  If you are going to school to learn the minutia of a subject rather than its principles, your time is being wasted.</p><p>My advice to the OP: keep your job, as they're hard to find at present, and get into a part-time educational program somewhere nearby, either evenings or weekends.  But be prepared to spend some time finding a good program that teaches not this or that specific tool, but how tools work, and from this knowledge, you'll be able to use any tool at all.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are a few excellent reasons to go to school :       - your field has you using multi-million dollar equipment that you simply can not access outside of the academic world       - you do n't know what you want , and need someone to plot a course through life for you       - you ca n't read and need to be taught the alphabetYou 've missed the most important one , no , strike that , two reasons to go to school .
The primary reasons that schools exist at all.Reason 1 : Most people need to have a curriculum laid out in front of them by someone who is smarter , often older , and wiser than them ( because , do I really have to point this out ? , they are looking to study the subject , and by definition can not know enough about it to design a proper curriculum themselves ) .
In addition , most people also benefit very well from an external source of motivation : if someone else tells you , " do this by Tuesday at 10am , " most -- not all , but most -- people will be more apt to get it done by the prescribed time than if they do it themselves .
Maintaining motivation , especially over the months-to-years timescale , is very difficult for all but a few.Reason 2 : Most people benefit greatly from being able to discuss new ideas with other people and getting feedback from people who are more experienced .
If you 're not at school , who 's going to grade your problem sets and quizzes ?
Who are you going to discuss the pros and cons of different solutions ?
Yes , a select few people are talented enough to not need this ( and I 've been fortunate enough to have attended schools where I got to see these stars shine very brightly , but even they benefit from exchanging ideas with their select group of peers ) but most people are not like that .
Most people learn better with others who are doing the same thing.The rest of the parent comment rails on how educational experiences are all too outdated to be worth anything .
The only thing I can say is that it sounds like the parent poster had a very different educational experience than me .
And , also , that the parent poster missed the biggest reason of all to go to school , which is not to learn a subject but to learn how to think .
In my undergraduate program , for example , there was no course specifically in one language or another ( why bother when , as my work-study boss put it , you can pick up C over the weekend ?
) , and , though the program , we were expected to learn about a dozen different languages along the way .
We were n't trained in C , Java , Perl , or whatever flavor of the month , but , instead , trained how to learn a language and quickly become proficient in it .
That knowledge is timeless .
If you are going to school to learn the minutia of a subject rather than its principles , your time is being wasted.My advice to the OP : keep your job , as they 're hard to find at present , and get into a part-time educational program somewhere nearby , either evenings or weekends .
But be prepared to spend some time finding a good program that teaches not this or that specific tool , but how tools work , and from this knowledge , you 'll be able to use any tool at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are a few excellent reasons to go to school:
      -  your field has you using multi-million dollar equipment that you simply cannot access outside of the academic world
      -  you don't know what you want, and need someone to plot a course through life for you
      -  you can't read and need to be taught the alphabetYou've missed the most important one, no, strike that, two reasons to go to school.
The primary reasons that schools exist at all.Reason 1: Most people need to have a curriculum laid out in front of them by someone who is smarter, often older, and wiser than them (because, do I really have to point this out?, they are looking to study the subject, and by definition cannot know enough about it to design a proper curriculum themselves).
In addition, most people also benefit very well from an external source of motivation: if someone else tells you, "do this by Tuesday at 10am," most -- not all, but most -- people will be more apt to get it done by the prescribed time than if they do it themselves.
Maintaining motivation, especially over the months-to-years timescale, is very difficult for all but a few.Reason 2: Most people benefit greatly from being able to discuss new ideas with other people and getting feedback from people who are more experienced.
If you're not at school, who's going to grade your problem sets and quizzes?
Who are you going to discuss the pros and cons of different solutions?
Yes, a select few people are talented enough to not need this (and I've been fortunate enough to have attended schools where I got to see these stars shine very brightly, but even they benefit from exchanging ideas with their select group of peers) but most people are not like that.
Most people learn better with others who are doing the same thing.The rest of the parent comment rails on how educational experiences are all too outdated to be worth anything.
The only thing I can say is that it sounds like the parent poster had a very different educational experience than me.
And, also, that the parent poster missed the biggest reason of all to go to school, which is not to learn a subject but to learn how to think.
In my undergraduate program, for example, there was no course specifically in one language or another (why bother when, as my work-study boss put it, you can pick up C over the weekend?
), and, though the program, we were expected to learn about a dozen different languages along the way.
We weren't trained in C, Java, Perl, or whatever flavor of the month, but, instead, trained how to learn a language and quickly become proficient in it.
That knowledge is timeless.
If you are going to school to learn the minutia of a subject rather than its principles, your time is being wasted.My advice to the OP: keep your job, as they're hard to find at present, and get into a part-time educational program somewhere nearby, either evenings or weekends.
But be prepared to spend some time finding a good program that teaches not this or that specific tool, but how tools work, and from this knowledge, you'll be able to use any tool at all.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369783</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373335</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245337080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Many jobs aren't about service in the same was as help desk or auto mechanic.</p><p>- Management, for starters, which tends to be not about service but about trying to squeeze as much out of your people as possible.<br>- Sales, which can be about service but is often about BSing the customer into paying a lot more than they should for something.<br>- "Consulting", which is mostly about giving content-free Powerpoint presentations to make some manager look good. (What I'm referring to here are shops that hire lots of Harvard grads to give presentations on things they know next to nothing about. They exist, they're very profitable, and totally mind-numbing to work for.)<br>- Advertising, which tends to be about making a product, company, or political cause look better than it really is.</p><p>See, when the parent talks about "service", what he means is that when a help desk worker does their job, some user's problem is solved. When a lot of these folks do their job, all that's happened is that somebody is convinced to do something that really doesn't help themselves or anyone else.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Many jobs are n't about service in the same was as help desk or auto mechanic.- Management , for starters , which tends to be not about service but about trying to squeeze as much out of your people as possible.- Sales , which can be about service but is often about BSing the customer into paying a lot more than they should for something.- " Consulting " , which is mostly about giving content-free Powerpoint presentations to make some manager look good .
( What I 'm referring to here are shops that hire lots of Harvard grads to give presentations on things they know next to nothing about .
They exist , they 're very profitable , and totally mind-numbing to work for .
) - Advertising , which tends to be about making a product , company , or political cause look better than it really is.See , when the parent talks about " service " , what he means is that when a help desk worker does their job , some user 's problem is solved .
When a lot of these folks do their job , all that 's happened is that somebody is convinced to do something that really does n't help themselves or anyone else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many jobs aren't about service in the same was as help desk or auto mechanic.- Management, for starters, which tends to be not about service but about trying to squeeze as much out of your people as possible.- Sales, which can be about service but is often about BSing the customer into paying a lot more than they should for something.- "Consulting", which is mostly about giving content-free Powerpoint presentations to make some manager look good.
(What I'm referring to here are shops that hire lots of Harvard grads to give presentations on things they know next to nothing about.
They exist, they're very profitable, and totally mind-numbing to work for.
)- Advertising, which tends to be about making a product, company, or political cause look better than it really is.See, when the parent talks about "service", what he means is that when a help desk worker does their job, some user's problem is solved.
When a lot of these folks do their job, all that's happened is that somebody is convinced to do something that really doesn't help themselves or anyone else.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370407</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372499</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>chapstercni</author>
	<datestamp>1245332880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Copied this post and sent it to my brother... Good stuff, and he would agree as well!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Copied this post and sent it to my brother... Good stuff , and he would agree as well !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Copied this post and sent it to my brother... Good stuff, and he would agree as well!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372405</id>
	<title>Re:Go small</title>
	<author>jellomizer</author>
	<datestamp>1245332160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Going small also means you will be wearing a lot of hats too. Except for going for a degree In Computer Science  (Unless it is really a passion of your) I would suggest getting Project Management Professional (PMP) Certified. That way you have the ability (on your resume) to handle and manage many small tasks.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Going small also means you will be wearing a lot of hats too .
Except for going for a degree In Computer Science ( Unless it is really a passion of your ) I would suggest getting Project Management Professional ( PMP ) Certified .
That way you have the ability ( on your resume ) to handle and manage many small tasks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Going small also means you will be wearing a lot of hats too.
Except for going for a degree In Computer Science  (Unless it is really a passion of your) I would suggest getting Project Management Professional (PMP) Certified.
That way you have the ability (on your resume) to handle and manage many small tasks.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369755</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369843</id>
	<title>It could be much worse...</title>
	<author>croddy</author>
	<datestamp>1245261720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>You could be working with <a href="http://chroniclesofgeorge.nanc.com/" title="nanc.com">George</a> [nanc.com].</htmltext>
<tokenext>You could be working with George [ nanc.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You could be working with George [nanc.com].</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28376137</id>
	<title>Re:Ugh</title>
	<author>copponex</author>
	<datestamp>1245348300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If he's postgrad, I would imagine there are female postgrads at the school. Who wants to bother with some 18 year old girl still resolving daddy issues?</p><p>Furthermore, who the hell modded me down? What is wrong with an education and having a good time?</p><p>Geeks who don't get laid are to blame, I think, so here's some unsolicited advice: a common misperception among geeks is that girls wanted to be treated like a flower. Which is true - sometimes. Take them out to dinner, hang out with them and do new and interesting things out on the town. And on the third or fourth date, <b>fuck them until dawn</b>. Make sure you have lots of condoms and lots of lube, and don't try any weird shit unless she asks you to. And, most importantly, do not confuse your lust with love, and scare her off with some romantic bullshit.</p><p>If she's not down with any of that, move on. She has issues that you can't solve. Ask another girl out, and try again. Believe it or not, there are women out there who like sex just as much as you do, if they're not encumbered by religious guilt trips, past negative sexual history, or insecurity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If he 's postgrad , I would imagine there are female postgrads at the school .
Who wants to bother with some 18 year old girl still resolving daddy issues ? Furthermore , who the hell modded me down ?
What is wrong with an education and having a good time ? Geeks who do n't get laid are to blame , I think , so here 's some unsolicited advice : a common misperception among geeks is that girls wanted to be treated like a flower .
Which is true - sometimes .
Take them out to dinner , hang out with them and do new and interesting things out on the town .
And on the third or fourth date , fuck them until dawn .
Make sure you have lots of condoms and lots of lube , and do n't try any weird shit unless she asks you to .
And , most importantly , do not confuse your lust with love , and scare her off with some romantic bullshit.If she 's not down with any of that , move on .
She has issues that you ca n't solve .
Ask another girl out , and try again .
Believe it or not , there are women out there who like sex just as much as you do , if they 're not encumbered by religious guilt trips , past negative sexual history , or insecurity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If he's postgrad, I would imagine there are female postgrads at the school.
Who wants to bother with some 18 year old girl still resolving daddy issues?Furthermore, who the hell modded me down?
What is wrong with an education and having a good time?Geeks who don't get laid are to blame, I think, so here's some unsolicited advice: a common misperception among geeks is that girls wanted to be treated like a flower.
Which is true - sometimes.
Take them out to dinner, hang out with them and do new and interesting things out on the town.
And on the third or fourth date, fuck them until dawn.
Make sure you have lots of condoms and lots of lube, and don't try any weird shit unless she asks you to.
And, most importantly, do not confuse your lust with love, and scare her off with some romantic bullshit.If she's not down with any of that, move on.
She has issues that you can't solve.
Ask another girl out, and try again.
Believe it or not, there are women out there who like sex just as much as you do, if they're not encumbered by religious guilt trips, past negative sexual history, or insecurity.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369823</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369831</id>
	<title>Find a new career.  Or don't...</title>
	<author>0311</author>
	<datestamp>1245261600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I started out as a phone rep on the floor of a credit collection department.  Because I liked to build computers and was interested in programming, I began building a relationship with the LAN team/help desk.  I got a certification, then applied for an open position.  I enjoyed it but it left me wanting more than unjamming stuff and rebooting computers for clueless users.  Even though I didn't mind the work (I don't stress out very easily) I knew I could go further.  I began taking programming classes and began proactively taking on scripting tasks and small programming assignments to make my job and the jobs of those around me a lot easier.  I jumped at every chance to learn something new, even if it wasn't fun or interesting.  I was always eager to learn.  When the opportunity opened up to become an intern programmer, I applied and was accepted.  Meanwhile, I got an associates in software engineering and began taking classes to complete a B.S. in comp sci.  At this point, I realized I would never move up as fast as I wanted to with that company so I bailed and took a similar (lateral move) position with G.E. as a web developer.  I began taking classes in web development, earned 2 of the 4 Java certs that were available at the time and finished my degree.  Then they laid me off!  Eight days before Christmas when we were expecting our 3rd child only a month later!  Turns out, it was the best thing to happen.  Forty-five days later I was offered a job in another state with a generous move bonus and a slight raise.  Thirteen months later I moved yet again to another company.  It was then that I realized I didn't really like computers so I took some pre-med classes, volunteered at a local emergency room (on Friday nights until midnight and sometimes later, the stories I could tell!!) and took the MCAT (3 times).  Now I am between my 1st and 2nd year in med school and I love it.  I would never have thought I would be a physician, especially not at nearly 40 years old with 4 kids and a big mortgage, but everything is working out.  Here are the points of my rather long story:  <br>1) work hard and learn continually <br>2) always look for a better situation and be prepared to get out of your comfort zone to obtain it <br>3) be receptive to new experiences in different areas that might later bear fruit <br>4) work hard and learn continually.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I started out as a phone rep on the floor of a credit collection department .
Because I liked to build computers and was interested in programming , I began building a relationship with the LAN team/help desk .
I got a certification , then applied for an open position .
I enjoyed it but it left me wanting more than unjamming stuff and rebooting computers for clueless users .
Even though I did n't mind the work ( I do n't stress out very easily ) I knew I could go further .
I began taking programming classes and began proactively taking on scripting tasks and small programming assignments to make my job and the jobs of those around me a lot easier .
I jumped at every chance to learn something new , even if it was n't fun or interesting .
I was always eager to learn .
When the opportunity opened up to become an intern programmer , I applied and was accepted .
Meanwhile , I got an associates in software engineering and began taking classes to complete a B.S .
in comp sci .
At this point , I realized I would never move up as fast as I wanted to with that company so I bailed and took a similar ( lateral move ) position with G.E .
as a web developer .
I began taking classes in web development , earned 2 of the 4 Java certs that were available at the time and finished my degree .
Then they laid me off !
Eight days before Christmas when we were expecting our 3rd child only a month later !
Turns out , it was the best thing to happen .
Forty-five days later I was offered a job in another state with a generous move bonus and a slight raise .
Thirteen months later I moved yet again to another company .
It was then that I realized I did n't really like computers so I took some pre-med classes , volunteered at a local emergency room ( on Friday nights until midnight and sometimes later , the stories I could tell ! !
) and took the MCAT ( 3 times ) .
Now I am between my 1st and 2nd year in med school and I love it .
I would never have thought I would be a physician , especially not at nearly 40 years old with 4 kids and a big mortgage , but everything is working out .
Here are the points of my rather long story : 1 ) work hard and learn continually 2 ) always look for a better situation and be prepared to get out of your comfort zone to obtain it 3 ) be receptive to new experiences in different areas that might later bear fruit 4 ) work hard and learn continually .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started out as a phone rep on the floor of a credit collection department.
Because I liked to build computers and was interested in programming, I began building a relationship with the LAN team/help desk.
I got a certification, then applied for an open position.
I enjoyed it but it left me wanting more than unjamming stuff and rebooting computers for clueless users.
Even though I didn't mind the work (I don't stress out very easily) I knew I could go further.
I began taking programming classes and began proactively taking on scripting tasks and small programming assignments to make my job and the jobs of those around me a lot easier.
I jumped at every chance to learn something new, even if it wasn't fun or interesting.
I was always eager to learn.
When the opportunity opened up to become an intern programmer, I applied and was accepted.
Meanwhile, I got an associates in software engineering and began taking classes to complete a B.S.
in comp sci.
At this point, I realized I would never move up as fast as I wanted to with that company so I bailed and took a similar (lateral move) position with G.E.
as a web developer.
I began taking classes in web development, earned 2 of the 4 Java certs that were available at the time and finished my degree.
Then they laid me off!
Eight days before Christmas when we were expecting our 3rd child only a month later!
Turns out, it was the best thing to happen.
Forty-five days later I was offered a job in another state with a generous move bonus and a slight raise.
Thirteen months later I moved yet again to another company.
It was then that I realized I didn't really like computers so I took some pre-med classes, volunteered at a local emergency room (on Friday nights until midnight and sometimes later, the stories I could tell!!
) and took the MCAT (3 times).
Now I am between my 1st and 2nd year in med school and I love it.
I would never have thought I would be a physician, especially not at nearly 40 years old with 4 kids and a big mortgage, but everything is working out.
Here are the points of my rather long story:  1) work hard and learn continually 2) always look for a better situation and be prepared to get out of your comfort zone to obtain it 3) be receptive to new experiences in different areas that might later bear fruit 4) work hard and learn continually.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370131</id>
	<title>What worked for me..</title>
	<author>TheDarkener</author>
	<datestamp>1245265140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was in a very similar situation when I was about 22 (I'm 29 now). I worked for a bank "holding" firm (which basically bought small community banks and used their resources to supposedly give bigger loans at any bank...but it seems their real motivation was to suck up as many smaller banks as possible, then sell the holding firm to Wells Fargo...go corporate!).</p><p>Anyway, I spent most of my days on the road for 3-4 hours, traveling to bank sites to do pretty lame things like install someone's keyboard and mouse. Given the job was kush, I got paid well, but...I felt like I was wasting my life away for money. I had a void that needed to be filled, and not by money. I decided to quit after 2 years, "Office Space" style (I literally said "Yeah...I'm just not going to come in anymore" to my bosse's boss on our Nextel phone..I felt so proud of myself). I had no idea what I was going to do, but I know I didn't want to waste more of my life being a well paid slave when I could be *learning* something.</p><p>I spent the next 2 1/2 years moonlighting as a residential/small business support person, living off of cheese sandwiches and Top Ramen. Sometimes I couldn't make the $330 rent portion from the 7 person house I lived in (we were all good friends). My friends understood and supported me, and I made it by the next week or so.</p><p>I wouldn't trade that for anything. While I was barely scraping by on my own, I was teaching myself Linux, making the house an iptables firewall machine for our 10+ computers (we wired the house for Ethernet ourselves as wireless wasn't as popular back then...and we wanted the bandwidth between each other<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;) ). I taught myself some basic HTML and made my own company webpage. I did the government paperwork/red tape to start my own actual business. In the meantime, I picked up a part-time job at a much smaller firm doing some other really cool stuff, involving Linux. I learned even more by doing stuff there, and by the time I quit there I could support myself with my small-time support/consulting business.</p><p>I look back at the time I spent at the bank doing drone work when I really strived for something more, even for less money.. and I realized my time was worth much more. If you can seriously do it, do it now. You'll thank yourself later, seriously. Being in charge of how you work is much nicer than being told what to do, especially when you don't enjoy doing that stuff anyway. Some people totally love it, and that's cool - but it was definitely not for me long term, and I always kinda knew it. Just didn't want to admit it, because I had bills to pay.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was in a very similar situation when I was about 22 ( I 'm 29 now ) .
I worked for a bank " holding " firm ( which basically bought small community banks and used their resources to supposedly give bigger loans at any bank...but it seems their real motivation was to suck up as many smaller banks as possible , then sell the holding firm to Wells Fargo...go corporate !
) .Anyway , I spent most of my days on the road for 3-4 hours , traveling to bank sites to do pretty lame things like install someone 's keyboard and mouse .
Given the job was kush , I got paid well , but...I felt like I was wasting my life away for money .
I had a void that needed to be filled , and not by money .
I decided to quit after 2 years , " Office Space " style ( I literally said " Yeah...I 'm just not going to come in anymore " to my bosse 's boss on our Nextel phone..I felt so proud of myself ) .
I had no idea what I was going to do , but I know I did n't want to waste more of my life being a well paid slave when I could be * learning * something.I spent the next 2 1/2 years moonlighting as a residential/small business support person , living off of cheese sandwiches and Top Ramen .
Sometimes I could n't make the $ 330 rent portion from the 7 person house I lived in ( we were all good friends ) .
My friends understood and supported me , and I made it by the next week or so.I would n't trade that for anything .
While I was barely scraping by on my own , I was teaching myself Linux , making the house an iptables firewall machine for our 10 + computers ( we wired the house for Ethernet ourselves as wireless was n't as popular back then...and we wanted the bandwidth between each other ; ) ) .
I taught myself some basic HTML and made my own company webpage .
I did the government paperwork/red tape to start my own actual business .
In the meantime , I picked up a part-time job at a much smaller firm doing some other really cool stuff , involving Linux .
I learned even more by doing stuff there , and by the time I quit there I could support myself with my small-time support/consulting business.I look back at the time I spent at the bank doing drone work when I really strived for something more , even for less money.. and I realized my time was worth much more .
If you can seriously do it , do it now .
You 'll thank yourself later , seriously .
Being in charge of how you work is much nicer than being told what to do , especially when you do n't enjoy doing that stuff anyway .
Some people totally love it , and that 's cool - but it was definitely not for me long term , and I always kinda knew it .
Just did n't want to admit it , because I had bills to pay .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was in a very similar situation when I was about 22 (I'm 29 now).
I worked for a bank "holding" firm (which basically bought small community banks and used their resources to supposedly give bigger loans at any bank...but it seems their real motivation was to suck up as many smaller banks as possible, then sell the holding firm to Wells Fargo...go corporate!
).Anyway, I spent most of my days on the road for 3-4 hours, traveling to bank sites to do pretty lame things like install someone's keyboard and mouse.
Given the job was kush, I got paid well, but...I felt like I was wasting my life away for money.
I had a void that needed to be filled, and not by money.
I decided to quit after 2 years, "Office Space" style (I literally said "Yeah...I'm just not going to come in anymore" to my bosse's boss on our Nextel phone..I felt so proud of myself).
I had no idea what I was going to do, but I know I didn't want to waste more of my life being a well paid slave when I could be *learning* something.I spent the next 2 1/2 years moonlighting as a residential/small business support person, living off of cheese sandwiches and Top Ramen.
Sometimes I couldn't make the $330 rent portion from the 7 person house I lived in (we were all good friends).
My friends understood and supported me, and I made it by the next week or so.I wouldn't trade that for anything.
While I was barely scraping by on my own, I was teaching myself Linux, making the house an iptables firewall machine for our 10+ computers (we wired the house for Ethernet ourselves as wireless wasn't as popular back then...and we wanted the bandwidth between each other ;) ).
I taught myself some basic HTML and made my own company webpage.
I did the government paperwork/red tape to start my own actual business.
In the meantime, I picked up a part-time job at a much smaller firm doing some other really cool stuff, involving Linux.
I learned even more by doing stuff there, and by the time I quit there I could support myself with my small-time support/consulting business.I look back at the time I spent at the bank doing drone work when I really strived for something more, even for less money.. and I realized my time was worth much more.
If you can seriously do it, do it now.
You'll thank yourself later, seriously.
Being in charge of how you work is much nicer than being told what to do, especially when you don't enjoy doing that stuff anyway.
Some people totally love it, and that's cool - but it was definitely not for me long term, and I always kinda knew it.
Just didn't want to admit it, because I had bills to pay.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28375413</id>
	<title>Options are nearly limitless</title>
	<author>HikingStick</author>
	<datestamp>1245345600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Unless you really want to change the nature of your work (i.e., pursue that CS degree with a database focus) you do have plenty of options, though some of them may be limited now due to the state of the economy.<br> <br>
You don't state how many IT folks work for your current employer.  If you are the only one, you could pitch bringing in an assistant (PT or FT) to handle the nuissance jobs.  The selling point to management is that doing so would free you up to do work that can add value to the company (e.g., automate processes, plan/coordinate infrastructure needs, improve IT budgeting and PC purchasing cycles, investigate alternative software options for key business systems)--assumin you have the skills and ambition to make that happen.<br> <br>
If there are already two or three of you, and if you have seniority (either in time served or in technical skill), pitch for you to become a Tier 2 support person--someone who only handles the issues that can't be resolved by the other techs.  Similar to the first scenario, this would allow you to make value-added contributions to the company (during the time freed by not handling as large a percentage of the calls).<br> <br>Moving sideways is not a bad thing at all.  You may be able to land a job with like or better salary, or perhaps better benefits.  The key is to be selective about your move.  Investigate any possible companies, and be sure to understand whether or not they would have opportunities for growth.  Don't even interview with a company that would put you in a comparable role, unless you can visualize a career path within that company (a path that might take you out of IT for a time).<br> <br>
Consider jobs on the periphery of IT, or that would benefit from your knowledge of IT: business analyst and systems analyst positions, sales positions.  While usually not hands-on (at least with hardware), they will allow you to leverage your knowledge while picking up what is (in my opinion) something critical for openin up real opportunities for advancement in IT: business experience.  Yes, techies can advance based only on their technical skills, but my experience has shown they either find the plateau they love or they need something more to land better gigs.  A skilled tech is one thing, but a skilled tech who can bridge the gap that often exists between the business- and tech-sides of the business has an advantage.  Given two candidates with similar tech backgrounds, I'd take one who also has business experience over the straight-tech any day.  I'd even take someone with a slightly weaker tech background who has the business experience, since technology training is always an option.  While these may seem to take you away from IT, if you view them as strategic moves they can really benefit you in the long term: when you come back to a traditional IT job you will have more experience and a broader perspective that you can sell as benefits to the company.<br> <br>Find ways to manage user expectations.  Methods will vary, but you could set aside one or two hours each day where you deliberately do not answer the phones or reply to email messages.  See if management will let you schedule your workday one or two days each week so that you either start or end your day before or after the core business hours.  For example, I find things at my current employer really ramp up at 8 AM (the office staff start time), so I try to get in by 6 AM at least once a week so I can get in two hours with limited interruptions.  Develop a problem classification system (a simplified SLA for your work), get it reviewed and approved by management, and communicate it to users.  When my users can print to any number of printers throughout the complex, there's no need for me to jump up to resolve a printer jam on one printer.  I tell my users that I'll drop by in a bit (I estimate a time) after I finish something on which I'm working, and I instruct them to use another printer in the interim.  If the problem is actually critical (e.g., the printer that is jammed is the only one that can print overs</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless you really want to change the nature of your work ( i.e. , pursue that CS degree with a database focus ) you do have plenty of options , though some of them may be limited now due to the state of the economy .
You do n't state how many IT folks work for your current employer .
If you are the only one , you could pitch bringing in an assistant ( PT or FT ) to handle the nuissance jobs .
The selling point to management is that doing so would free you up to do work that can add value to the company ( e.g. , automate processes , plan/coordinate infrastructure needs , improve IT budgeting and PC purchasing cycles , investigate alternative software options for key business systems ) --assumin you have the skills and ambition to make that happen .
If there are already two or three of you , and if you have seniority ( either in time served or in technical skill ) , pitch for you to become a Tier 2 support person--someone who only handles the issues that ca n't be resolved by the other techs .
Similar to the first scenario , this would allow you to make value-added contributions to the company ( during the time freed by not handling as large a percentage of the calls ) .
Moving sideways is not a bad thing at all .
You may be able to land a job with like or better salary , or perhaps better benefits .
The key is to be selective about your move .
Investigate any possible companies , and be sure to understand whether or not they would have opportunities for growth .
Do n't even interview with a company that would put you in a comparable role , unless you can visualize a career path within that company ( a path that might take you out of IT for a time ) .
Consider jobs on the periphery of IT , or that would benefit from your knowledge of IT : business analyst and systems analyst positions , sales positions .
While usually not hands-on ( at least with hardware ) , they will allow you to leverage your knowledge while picking up what is ( in my opinion ) something critical for openin up real opportunities for advancement in IT : business experience .
Yes , techies can advance based only on their technical skills , but my experience has shown they either find the plateau they love or they need something more to land better gigs .
A skilled tech is one thing , but a skilled tech who can bridge the gap that often exists between the business- and tech-sides of the business has an advantage .
Given two candidates with similar tech backgrounds , I 'd take one who also has business experience over the straight-tech any day .
I 'd even take someone with a slightly weaker tech background who has the business experience , since technology training is always an option .
While these may seem to take you away from IT , if you view them as strategic moves they can really benefit you in the long term : when you come back to a traditional IT job you will have more experience and a broader perspective that you can sell as benefits to the company .
Find ways to manage user expectations .
Methods will vary , but you could set aside one or two hours each day where you deliberately do not answer the phones or reply to email messages .
See if management will let you schedule your workday one or two days each week so that you either start or end your day before or after the core business hours .
For example , I find things at my current employer really ramp up at 8 AM ( the office staff start time ) , so I try to get in by 6 AM at least once a week so I can get in two hours with limited interruptions .
Develop a problem classification system ( a simplified SLA for your work ) , get it reviewed and approved by management , and communicate it to users .
When my users can print to any number of printers throughout the complex , there 's no need for me to jump up to resolve a printer jam on one printer .
I tell my users that I 'll drop by in a bit ( I estimate a time ) after I finish something on which I 'm working , and I instruct them to use another printer in the interim .
If the problem is actually critical ( e.g. , the printer that is jammed is the only one that can print overs</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless you really want to change the nature of your work (i.e., pursue that CS degree with a database focus) you do have plenty of options, though some of them may be limited now due to the state of the economy.
You don't state how many IT folks work for your current employer.
If you are the only one, you could pitch bringing in an assistant (PT or FT) to handle the nuissance jobs.
The selling point to management is that doing so would free you up to do work that can add value to the company (e.g., automate processes, plan/coordinate infrastructure needs, improve IT budgeting and PC purchasing cycles, investigate alternative software options for key business systems)--assumin you have the skills and ambition to make that happen.
If there are already two or three of you, and if you have seniority (either in time served or in technical skill), pitch for you to become a Tier 2 support person--someone who only handles the issues that can't be resolved by the other techs.
Similar to the first scenario, this would allow you to make value-added contributions to the company (during the time freed by not handling as large a percentage of the calls).
Moving sideways is not a bad thing at all.
You may be able to land a job with like or better salary, or perhaps better benefits.
The key is to be selective about your move.
Investigate any possible companies, and be sure to understand whether or not they would have opportunities for growth.
Don't even interview with a company that would put you in a comparable role, unless you can visualize a career path within that company (a path that might take you out of IT for a time).
Consider jobs on the periphery of IT, or that would benefit from your knowledge of IT: business analyst and systems analyst positions, sales positions.
While usually not hands-on (at least with hardware), they will allow you to leverage your knowledge while picking up what is (in my opinion) something critical for openin up real opportunities for advancement in IT: business experience.
Yes, techies can advance based only on their technical skills, but my experience has shown they either find the plateau they love or they need something more to land better gigs.
A skilled tech is one thing, but a skilled tech who can bridge the gap that often exists between the business- and tech-sides of the business has an advantage.
Given two candidates with similar tech backgrounds, I'd take one who also has business experience over the straight-tech any day.
I'd even take someone with a slightly weaker tech background who has the business experience, since technology training is always an option.
While these may seem to take you away from IT, if you view them as strategic moves they can really benefit you in the long term: when you come back to a traditional IT job you will have more experience and a broader perspective that you can sell as benefits to the company.
Find ways to manage user expectations.
Methods will vary, but you could set aside one or two hours each day where you deliberately do not answer the phones or reply to email messages.
See if management will let you schedule your workday one or two days each week so that you either start or end your day before or after the core business hours.
For example, I find things at my current employer really ramp up at 8 AM (the office staff start time), so I try to get in by 6 AM at least once a week so I can get in two hours with limited interruptions.
Develop a problem classification system (a simplified SLA for your work), get it reviewed and approved by management, and communicate it to users.
When my users can print to any number of printers throughout the complex, there's no need for me to jump up to resolve a printer jam on one printer.
I tell my users that I'll drop by in a bit (I estimate a time) after I finish something on which I'm working, and I instruct them to use another printer in the interim.
If the problem is actually critical (e.g., the printer that is jammed is the only one that can print overs</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369761</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>wind\_ice\_flames</author>
	<datestamp>1245260880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>There is a difference in being in IT and doing one specific aspect of IT called help desk.  I can relate.  The poster is seems to be tired of dealing with the same thing over and over from people who make the same mistakes.  IT is a much broader field than just help desk.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is a difference in being in IT and doing one specific aspect of IT called help desk .
I can relate .
The poster is seems to be tired of dealing with the same thing over and over from people who make the same mistakes .
IT is a much broader field than just help desk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is a difference in being in IT and doing one specific aspect of IT called help desk.
I can relate.
The poster is seems to be tired of dealing with the same thing over and over from people who make the same mistakes.
IT is a much broader field than just help desk.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369719</id>
	<title>A few more options</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245260520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It depends on if you want to be a database one trick pony or a programmer or a sysadmin.</p><p>A help desk job is where you cut your teeth for being a sysadmin.  If you want to be a dba or programmer, you don't need any experience in the real world.  You just go to school and hope it's real life.</p><p>If you are interested in being a sysadmin, then understand that you are supporting users, and there are sysadmins supporting you.</p><p>Hang out with them and ask them to show you how they do their jobs.  Learn about the stuff schools can't and never will be able to afford to teach you.  SAN's, Fiber switching, the proprietary tools for HP, Sun, IBM, Dell.  Use lunch, free time, smoke breaks, after work- whatever.</p><p>Sysadmins always have job offers or know people at other companies with job offers that may not be at their level, but at yours.  There is no downside.</p><p>Secondarily, you should take advantage of their education program.  If it's a law firm, they have one.  Put in for your RHCE or LPI or MCSE or whatever the hell it is you're working on.  Buy or download the book and make them pay for the tests.  A cert will get you more pay than a Master's in anything.  Unless you are bucking for middle management or want to write obscure code, a Master's won't do dick.</p><p>If you really want to leave though- and you know this because you go home, lay in bed, and literally say "I have to get out of this place" every day- then leave.  You ain't gonna learn shit.  Follow your gut first, head second.</p><p>School is a fine fallback if you have money, but if you don't then guess what.  This is your school.  You won't ever forget working help desk.  People in pain learn their maximum threshold for bullshit, so it's good to learn yours early so you don't spin out when you get a job that actually pays the bills.  Helpdesk is hell by repetition.  DBA, Sysadmin, and maybe Programmer are hell by catching shit from all sides.</p><p>I can't tell you what to do.  I can tell you that I, and many of the people here, were in your exact position.  If you don't want to kill yourself yet, then you aren't finished.  Take advantage of what's around you and then opportunities will open up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It depends on if you want to be a database one trick pony or a programmer or a sysadmin.A help desk job is where you cut your teeth for being a sysadmin .
If you want to be a dba or programmer , you do n't need any experience in the real world .
You just go to school and hope it 's real life.If you are interested in being a sysadmin , then understand that you are supporting users , and there are sysadmins supporting you.Hang out with them and ask them to show you how they do their jobs .
Learn about the stuff schools ca n't and never will be able to afford to teach you .
SAN 's , Fiber switching , the proprietary tools for HP , Sun , IBM , Dell .
Use lunch , free time , smoke breaks , after work- whatever.Sysadmins always have job offers or know people at other companies with job offers that may not be at their level , but at yours .
There is no downside.Secondarily , you should take advantage of their education program .
If it 's a law firm , they have one .
Put in for your RHCE or LPI or MCSE or whatever the hell it is you 're working on .
Buy or download the book and make them pay for the tests .
A cert will get you more pay than a Master 's in anything .
Unless you are bucking for middle management or want to write obscure code , a Master 's wo n't do dick.If you really want to leave though- and you know this because you go home , lay in bed , and literally say " I have to get out of this place " every day- then leave .
You ai n't gon na learn shit .
Follow your gut first , head second.School is a fine fallback if you have money , but if you do n't then guess what .
This is your school .
You wo n't ever forget working help desk .
People in pain learn their maximum threshold for bullshit , so it 's good to learn yours early so you do n't spin out when you get a job that actually pays the bills .
Helpdesk is hell by repetition .
DBA , Sysadmin , and maybe Programmer are hell by catching shit from all sides.I ca n't tell you what to do .
I can tell you that I , and many of the people here , were in your exact position .
If you do n't want to kill yourself yet , then you are n't finished .
Take advantage of what 's around you and then opportunities will open up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It depends on if you want to be a database one trick pony or a programmer or a sysadmin.A help desk job is where you cut your teeth for being a sysadmin.
If you want to be a dba or programmer, you don't need any experience in the real world.
You just go to school and hope it's real life.If you are interested in being a sysadmin, then understand that you are supporting users, and there are sysadmins supporting you.Hang out with them and ask them to show you how they do their jobs.
Learn about the stuff schools can't and never will be able to afford to teach you.
SAN's, Fiber switching, the proprietary tools for HP, Sun, IBM, Dell.
Use lunch, free time, smoke breaks, after work- whatever.Sysadmins always have job offers or know people at other companies with job offers that may not be at their level, but at yours.
There is no downside.Secondarily, you should take advantage of their education program.
If it's a law firm, they have one.
Put in for your RHCE or LPI or MCSE or whatever the hell it is you're working on.
Buy or download the book and make them pay for the tests.
A cert will get you more pay than a Master's in anything.
Unless you are bucking for middle management or want to write obscure code, a Master's won't do dick.If you really want to leave though- and you know this because you go home, lay in bed, and literally say "I have to get out of this place" every day- then leave.
You ain't gonna learn shit.
Follow your gut first, head second.School is a fine fallback if you have money, but if you don't then guess what.
This is your school.
You won't ever forget working help desk.
People in pain learn their maximum threshold for bullshit, so it's good to learn yours early so you don't spin out when you get a job that actually pays the bills.
Helpdesk is hell by repetition.
DBA, Sysadmin, and maybe Programmer are hell by catching shit from all sides.I can't tell you what to do.
I can tell you that I, and many of the people here, were in your exact position.
If you don't want to kill yourself yet, then you aren't finished.
Take advantage of what's around you and then opportunities will open up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371899</id>
	<title>Re:Ugh</title>
	<author>mikael\_j</author>
	<datestamp>1245327660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It also depend a lot on how you present yourself, if you show up in a suit, jammer on about your kid and the ex you had the kid with, live twenty miles from the college campus and generally seem like you're more like their parents than them then yes, you will be seen as an outsider.</p><p>But when I was in college I knew a couple of guys who fit right in even though they were 25+, one was some kind of indie rock/punk guy who decided it might be a good idea to do something with his life, the other guy had just spent a couple of years travelling the world snowboarding in various exotic locations, since they both acted and dressed like oddball 20-somethings instead of dull and gray 30-somethings they ended up being very popular...</p><p>/Mikael</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It also depend a lot on how you present yourself , if you show up in a suit , jammer on about your kid and the ex you had the kid with , live twenty miles from the college campus and generally seem like you 're more like their parents than them then yes , you will be seen as an outsider.But when I was in college I knew a couple of guys who fit right in even though they were 25 + , one was some kind of indie rock/punk guy who decided it might be a good idea to do something with his life , the other guy had just spent a couple of years travelling the world snowboarding in various exotic locations , since they both acted and dressed like oddball 20-somethings instead of dull and gray 30-somethings they ended up being very popular.../Mikael</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It also depend a lot on how you present yourself, if you show up in a suit, jammer on about your kid and the ex you had the kid with, live twenty miles from the college campus and generally seem like you're more like their parents than them then yes, you will be seen as an outsider.But when I was in college I knew a couple of guys who fit right in even though they were 25+, one was some kind of indie rock/punk guy who decided it might be a good idea to do something with his life, the other guy had just spent a couple of years travelling the world snowboarding in various exotic locations, since they both acted and dressed like oddball 20-somethings instead of dull and gray 30-somethings they ended up being very popular.../Mikael</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369823</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370155</id>
	<title>you don't have a clue</title>
	<author>blackcoot</author>
	<datestamp>1245265560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>it's pretty simple bud: if you think that databases or web development qualifies as a specialized comp. sci. area then you have either been mislead or are plain ignorant. more importantly, you should know that grad school is, generally, an extremely bad plan unless you're the peculiar kind of person that is really serious about your particular field. grad school will be \_HELL\_ if you don't love what you're doing. and to be honest, i don't think you love what you're doing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>it 's pretty simple bud : if you think that databases or web development qualifies as a specialized comp .
sci. area then you have either been mislead or are plain ignorant .
more importantly , you should know that grad school is , generally , an extremely bad plan unless you 're the peculiar kind of person that is really serious about your particular field .
grad school will be \ _HELL \ _ if you do n't love what you 're doing .
and to be honest , i do n't think you love what you 're doing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>it's pretty simple bud: if you think that databases or web development qualifies as a specialized comp.
sci. area then you have either been mislead or are plain ignorant.
more importantly, you should know that grad school is, generally, an extremely bad plan unless you're the peculiar kind of person that is really serious about your particular field.
grad school will be \_HELL\_ if you don't love what you're doing.
and to be honest, i don't think you love what you're doing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369785</id>
	<title>Progression</title>
	<author>acehole</author>
	<datestamp>1245261120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Usually:</p><p>Hell Desk -&gt; Desktop Support then branching off to Sys admin, DB admin, Network admin.</p><p>Edumacation is the way to go, its a wise investment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Usually : Hell Desk - &gt; Desktop Support then branching off to Sys admin , DB admin , Network admin.Edumacation is the way to go , its a wise investment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Usually:Hell Desk -&gt; Desktop Support then branching off to Sys admin, DB admin, Network admin.Edumacation is the way to go, its a wise investment.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370747</id>
	<title>QA</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245315660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The obvious step up from helpdesk is QA. Get a QA job (not blackbox) and work your way up to dev from there...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The obvious step up from helpdesk is QA .
Get a QA job ( not blackbox ) and work your way up to dev from there.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The obvious step up from helpdesk is QA.
Get a QA job (not blackbox) and work your way up to dev from there...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369809</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Fluffeh</author>
	<datestamp>1245261360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>IT is a support function, yes, but that's not to say that all IT people keep getting calls every five minutes when someone can't print an email.<br> <br>

I would go as far as to say that the folks we have here on the IT helpdesk are very tech un-savvy. They follow simple flowcharts to get resolutions and do very little actual IT work.

I also work in a 200,000 employee company at the head office which has 4,000 staffers. I would say that to get into the IT field, you need to either jump out into a side role and get yourself known, make friends with developers (if you have them in-house) or simply look to maybe even join a helpdesk in a larger firm.<br> <br>

Having said that, I don't really see why you cannot study while being at the helpdesk. It's not a stressful role, you answer calls, you help people with stupid things when they are clueless. Yes, it's numbing, yes it's boring - and it's perfect to use as a job while studying for something else or learning things on the side.<br> <br>

Not to be rude, but be prepared for a LOT more stress than a helpdesk if you do get seriously into the IT field. Developers are ALWAYS being pushed for quicker and cheaper developments, project managers get sizings and then shave off time for an action if it doesn't fit into the time constraints - and I ain't even going to start on the business users and what you will have to do for them during the warranty phase of developments when they start changing requirements left right and center.</htmltext>
<tokenext>IT is a support function , yes , but that 's not to say that all IT people keep getting calls every five minutes when someone ca n't print an email .
I would go as far as to say that the folks we have here on the IT helpdesk are very tech un-savvy .
They follow simple flowcharts to get resolutions and do very little actual IT work .
I also work in a 200,000 employee company at the head office which has 4,000 staffers .
I would say that to get into the IT field , you need to either jump out into a side role and get yourself known , make friends with developers ( if you have them in-house ) or simply look to maybe even join a helpdesk in a larger firm .
Having said that , I do n't really see why you can not study while being at the helpdesk .
It 's not a stressful role , you answer calls , you help people with stupid things when they are clueless .
Yes , it 's numbing , yes it 's boring - and it 's perfect to use as a job while studying for something else or learning things on the side .
Not to be rude , but be prepared for a LOT more stress than a helpdesk if you do get seriously into the IT field .
Developers are ALWAYS being pushed for quicker and cheaper developments , project managers get sizings and then shave off time for an action if it does n't fit into the time constraints - and I ai n't even going to start on the business users and what you will have to do for them during the warranty phase of developments when they start changing requirements left right and center .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IT is a support function, yes, but that's not to say that all IT people keep getting calls every five minutes when someone can't print an email.
I would go as far as to say that the folks we have here on the IT helpdesk are very tech un-savvy.
They follow simple flowcharts to get resolutions and do very little actual IT work.
I also work in a 200,000 employee company at the head office which has 4,000 staffers.
I would say that to get into the IT field, you need to either jump out into a side role and get yourself known, make friends with developers (if you have them in-house) or simply look to maybe even join a helpdesk in a larger firm.
Having said that, I don't really see why you cannot study while being at the helpdesk.
It's not a stressful role, you answer calls, you help people with stupid things when they are clueless.
Yes, it's numbing, yes it's boring - and it's perfect to use as a job while studying for something else or learning things on the side.
Not to be rude, but be prepared for a LOT more stress than a helpdesk if you do get seriously into the IT field.
Developers are ALWAYS being pushed for quicker and cheaper developments, project managers get sizings and then shave off time for an action if it doesn't fit into the time constraints - and I ain't even going to start on the business users and what you will have to do for them during the warranty phase of developments when they start changing requirements left right and center.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28378315</id>
	<title>program</title>
	<author>spads</author>
	<datestamp>1245355380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ideally you should go to a place where they are really teaching programming.  In my experience, first rung higher ed. (ie. 4(+) year programs) is more of a mill, where they need to keep their students base.  Thus, they will lower their standards some.  I was fortunate to attend junior college courses in an urban center, largely taught part time by professional developers.  No one was there for the paper.  Everyone was there to hone their skills, and the labs were demanding.  I think you could do a lot of this stuff on your own, too, though that requires considerable legwork (and ideally someone to advise you) in addition to the programming.  If you can take a couple of years off to go to school, great.  Otherwise, continue to toil (helps develop character!) and take one class part time.  A home webserver install is a must (windows:  <a href="http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp-windows.html" title="apachefriends.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp-windows.html</a> [apachefriends.org]), and ideally a (Fedora or debian) linux install.  Btw, I came to this field from science and have no CS degree.  DIG IT AND HAVE FUN!!!!!!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ideally you should go to a place where they are really teaching programming .
In my experience , first rung higher ed .
( ie. 4 ( + ) year programs ) is more of a mill , where they need to keep their students base .
Thus , they will lower their standards some .
I was fortunate to attend junior college courses in an urban center , largely taught part time by professional developers .
No one was there for the paper .
Everyone was there to hone their skills , and the labs were demanding .
I think you could do a lot of this stuff on your own , too , though that requires considerable legwork ( and ideally someone to advise you ) in addition to the programming .
If you can take a couple of years off to go to school , great .
Otherwise , continue to toil ( helps develop character !
) and take one class part time .
A home webserver install is a must ( windows : http : //www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp-windows.html [ apachefriends.org ] ) , and ideally a ( Fedora or debian ) linux install .
Btw , I came to this field from science and have no CS degree .
DIG IT AND HAVE FUN ! ! ! ! ! !
: D</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ideally you should go to a place where they are really teaching programming.
In my experience, first rung higher ed.
(ie. 4(+) year programs) is more of a mill, where they need to keep their students base.
Thus, they will lower their standards some.
I was fortunate to attend junior college courses in an urban center, largely taught part time by professional developers.
No one was there for the paper.
Everyone was there to hone their skills, and the labs were demanding.
I think you could do a lot of this stuff on your own, too, though that requires considerable legwork (and ideally someone to advise you) in addition to the programming.
If you can take a couple of years off to go to school, great.
Otherwise, continue to toil (helps develop character!
) and take one class part time.
A home webserver install is a must (windows:  http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp-windows.html [apachefriends.org]), and ideally a (Fedora or debian) linux install.
Btw, I came to this field from science and have no CS degree.
DIG IT AND HAVE FUN!!!!!!
:D</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372721</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Julien Brub</author>
	<datestamp>1245334020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm a programmer, but I used to be a help desk for about a year (I got my degree right when the bubble exploded).<br>I had a load of stupid stuff to do, like unjamming printers, changing dot-matrix printers ribbons, rebooting frozen terminals / PCs and other stuff only highly qualified people can do.&lt;/sarcasm&gt;<br>I've cut that load by more than half by educating people with quick-fix guides and "not to do" lists. With the time it saved I automated some other tasks (report production, verifications, etc...). I ended up with 2-3 hours a day worth of job and 5-6 hours to code data analysis tools to saved some of my boss time.<br>So if you can, focus on prevention, even if it means working harder during a short while.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a programmer , but I used to be a help desk for about a year ( I got my degree right when the bubble exploded ) .I had a load of stupid stuff to do , like unjamming printers , changing dot-matrix printers ribbons , rebooting frozen terminals / PCs and other stuff only highly qualified people can do.I 've cut that load by more than half by educating people with quick-fix guides and " not to do " lists .
With the time it saved I automated some other tasks ( report production , verifications , etc... ) .
I ended up with 2-3 hours a day worth of job and 5-6 hours to code data analysis tools to saved some of my boss time.So if you can , focus on prevention , even if it means working harder during a short while .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a programmer, but I used to be a help desk for about a year (I got my degree right when the bubble exploded).I had a load of stupid stuff to do, like unjamming printers, changing dot-matrix printers ribbons, rebooting frozen terminals / PCs and other stuff only highly qualified people can do.I've cut that load by more than half by educating people with quick-fix guides and "not to do" lists.
With the time it saved I automated some other tasks (report production, verifications, etc...).
I ended up with 2-3 hours a day worth of job and 5-6 hours to code data analysis tools to saved some of my boss time.So if you can, focus on prevention, even if it means working harder during a short while.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28375901</id>
	<title>Important advice</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245347580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Studying security is worthwhile. Maybe getting some certifies and going to the market as a security consultant.<br>Not easy, lots of work and tough studies. However, the payback is remarkable: 100k/year.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Studying security is worthwhile .
Maybe getting some certifies and going to the market as a security consultant.Not easy , lots of work and tough studies .
However , the payback is remarkable : 100k/year .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Studying security is worthwhile.
Maybe getting some certifies and going to the market as a security consultant.Not easy, lots of work and tough studies.
However, the payback is remarkable: 100k/year.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370077</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245264540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Fixing things never bothered me, its the idiots that try to fix it themselves, and just make the problem worse, and the questions that never should have been asked, because they should have been covered in training.  And I could never forgive myself if I actually had to help a lawyer!</p><p>If it weren't for lawyers, we wouldn't need lawyers!  Think about it...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Fixing things never bothered me , its the idiots that try to fix it themselves , and just make the problem worse , and the questions that never should have been asked , because they should have been covered in training .
And I could never forgive myself if I actually had to help a lawyer ! If it were n't for lawyers , we would n't need lawyers !
Think about it.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fixing things never bothered me, its the idiots that try to fix it themselves, and just make the problem worse, and the questions that never should have been asked, because they should have been covered in training.
And I could never forgive myself if I actually had to help a lawyer!If it weren't for lawyers, we wouldn't need lawyers!
Think about it...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369693</id>
	<title>Take Some Initiative</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245260220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It all depends on what you enjoy.  Do you like databases or Web development?  Ask the person doing that role if they need help, or even just show you something the next time a user has a problem.  If they can have you take care of a minor problem, that's a good first step.  Then as they get more comfortable with you, you could eventually transition into a Junior DBA or Junior WebDev.  It takes time, but being a positive known quantity helps.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It all depends on what you enjoy .
Do you like databases or Web development ?
Ask the person doing that role if they need help , or even just show you something the next time a user has a problem .
If they can have you take care of a minor problem , that 's a good first step .
Then as they get more comfortable with you , you could eventually transition into a Junior DBA or Junior WebDev .
It takes time , but being a positive known quantity helps .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It all depends on what you enjoy.
Do you like databases or Web development?
Ask the person doing that role if they need help, or even just show you something the next time a user has a problem.
If they can have you take care of a minor problem, that's a good first step.
Then as they get more comfortable with you, you could eventually transition into a Junior DBA or Junior WebDev.
It takes time, but being a positive known quantity helps.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370757</id>
	<title>Start teaching yourself various unix systems.</title>
	<author>arcade</author>
	<datestamp>1245315720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The best way to get to the fun roles, are by teaching yourself how things work.  This is usually not accomplished at schools, but with you yourself playing around with things.</p><p>The easiest way, from my point of view, is starting to play around with various unix systems.</p><p>I don't know the current state of slackware, but back when I wanted to learn linux, I tried getting slackware to work on my workstation, including X.  I tried and failed for a couple of weeks - but I learned a huge lot from it.  I went on to install Debian.  These days - I'd suggest going the Gentoo route, and then try to build your own linux distro from scratch.<br>See: <a href="http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/" title="linuxfromscratch.org">http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/</a> [linuxfromscratch.org]</p><p>Buy the book "Running Linux".  Read it, understand it.</p><p>Don't stop there.  After playing around with linuxfromscratch and reading 'Running Linux', I would go on to download OpenBSD, and read the FAQ's/Howto's and most importantly - the man-pages you're referred to after installation.  There is an incredible amount or good documentation for OpenBSD.  It's easy to read - and you learn a lot - fast.</p><p>After playing around with OpenBSD - I would go on to play around with NetBSD.  When I played around with it (1.5.2, I think) - it was a very nice and barebone unix.  Documentation wasn't perfect, but that lead me to learn even more.</p><p>FreeBSD is very nice - but last time I played around with it, it suffered from having too many users having written too much contradicting information.  It was more difficult to pick up than Open/Net-BSD, but it's way more usable for an end user.  THAT, however, should not be one of your considerations when you want to learn.  Pick the best documented one, not the one that has the most fancy features for your desktop.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>In the process of installing and fooling around with all these systems, try to build your own firewall for your home computers.  Read up on firewalling - it's a good goal - as to create a useful firewall you'll need to teach yourself TCP/IP in the process.</p><p>When you feel that you've mastered most of this (you haven't, but that's beside the point) - you should've spent 6-12 months.  It's now time to pick up "Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment".  See: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Environment-Addison-Wesley-Professional-Computing/dp/0201563177" title="amazon.com">http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Environment-Addison-Wesley-Professional-Computing/dp/0201563177</a> [amazon.com]</p><p>This book will teach you a lot, and now that you've used Unix for a while - you'll understand quite a bit of it.  Not all, but it's a good read, and will teach you even more of what you need to know.</p><p>After fooling around with all this, or preferably in between and along the way, you'll need to:<br>
&nbsp; - Configure BIND (DNS), and maybe look at djbdns<br>
&nbsp; - Configure postfix/exim, and maybe also take a look at qmail<br>
&nbsp; - Configure a dhcp-server.<br>
&nbsp; - Fool around a bit with apache, building it from source and swearing at it.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)<br>
&nbsp; - Set up an nntp-server.<br>
&nbsp; - Maybe set up an IRC server to fool around with.</p><p>Also, it's important to get to know a couple of programming languages.  Not necessarily to expert level, but it's important that you fool around with C (not C++, but you might want to learn a bit of that in addition) - plus a couple of scripting languages.  It's important that you teach yourself bash (since it's probably your shell) - in addition to either perl or python.  You'll find camps that say that perl is more important, while other camps will claim that python is more important.  I went with perl first, and I'm now trying to teach myself python.</p><p>Now, this is a huge list of things to play around with.  There are lots more - but it should give you a good 12-24 months of fooling around and studying.  With all the knowledge you gather from this, if you complete it, you should be ready to get yourself fun, challenging and other frustrating work.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The best way to get to the fun roles , are by teaching yourself how things work .
This is usually not accomplished at schools , but with you yourself playing around with things.The easiest way , from my point of view , is starting to play around with various unix systems.I do n't know the current state of slackware , but back when I wanted to learn linux , I tried getting slackware to work on my workstation , including X. I tried and failed for a couple of weeks - but I learned a huge lot from it .
I went on to install Debian .
These days - I 'd suggest going the Gentoo route , and then try to build your own linux distro from scratch.See : http : //www.linuxfromscratch.org/ [ linuxfromscratch.org ] Buy the book " Running Linux " .
Read it , understand it.Do n't stop there .
After playing around with linuxfromscratch and reading 'Running Linux ' , I would go on to download OpenBSD , and read the FAQ 's/Howto 's and most importantly - the man-pages you 're referred to after installation .
There is an incredible amount or good documentation for OpenBSD .
It 's easy to read - and you learn a lot - fast.After playing around with OpenBSD - I would go on to play around with NetBSD .
When I played around with it ( 1.5.2 , I think ) - it was a very nice and barebone unix .
Documentation was n't perfect , but that lead me to learn even more.FreeBSD is very nice - but last time I played around with it , it suffered from having too many users having written too much contradicting information .
It was more difficult to pick up than Open/Net-BSD , but it 's way more usable for an end user .
THAT , however , should not be one of your considerations when you want to learn .
Pick the best documented one , not the one that has the most fancy features for your desktop .
: ) In the process of installing and fooling around with all these systems , try to build your own firewall for your home computers .
Read up on firewalling - it 's a good goal - as to create a useful firewall you 'll need to teach yourself TCP/IP in the process.When you feel that you 've mastered most of this ( you have n't , but that 's beside the point ) - you should 've spent 6-12 months .
It 's now time to pick up " Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment " .
See : http : //www.amazon.com/Programming-Environment-Addison-Wesley-Professional-Computing/dp/0201563177 [ amazon.com ] This book will teach you a lot , and now that you 've used Unix for a while - you 'll understand quite a bit of it .
Not all , but it 's a good read , and will teach you even more of what you need to know.After fooling around with all this , or preferably in between and along the way , you 'll need to :   - Configure BIND ( DNS ) , and maybe look at djbdns   - Configure postfix/exim , and maybe also take a look at qmail   - Configure a dhcp-server .
  - Fool around a bit with apache , building it from source and swearing at it .
: )   - Set up an nntp-server .
  - Maybe set up an IRC server to fool around with.Also , it 's important to get to know a couple of programming languages .
Not necessarily to expert level , but it 's important that you fool around with C ( not C + + , but you might want to learn a bit of that in addition ) - plus a couple of scripting languages .
It 's important that you teach yourself bash ( since it 's probably your shell ) - in addition to either perl or python .
You 'll find camps that say that perl is more important , while other camps will claim that python is more important .
I went with perl first , and I 'm now trying to teach myself python.Now , this is a huge list of things to play around with .
There are lots more - but it should give you a good 12-24 months of fooling around and studying .
With all the knowledge you gather from this , if you complete it , you should be ready to get yourself fun , challenging and other frustrating work .
: - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The best way to get to the fun roles, are by teaching yourself how things work.
This is usually not accomplished at schools, but with you yourself playing around with things.The easiest way, from my point of view, is starting to play around with various unix systems.I don't know the current state of slackware, but back when I wanted to learn linux, I tried getting slackware to work on my workstation, including X.  I tried and failed for a couple of weeks - but I learned a huge lot from it.
I went on to install Debian.
These days - I'd suggest going the Gentoo route, and then try to build your own linux distro from scratch.See: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ [linuxfromscratch.org]Buy the book "Running Linux".
Read it, understand it.Don't stop there.
After playing around with linuxfromscratch and reading 'Running Linux', I would go on to download OpenBSD, and read the FAQ's/Howto's and most importantly - the man-pages you're referred to after installation.
There is an incredible amount or good documentation for OpenBSD.
It's easy to read - and you learn a lot - fast.After playing around with OpenBSD - I would go on to play around with NetBSD.
When I played around with it (1.5.2, I think) - it was a very nice and barebone unix.
Documentation wasn't perfect, but that lead me to learn even more.FreeBSD is very nice - but last time I played around with it, it suffered from having too many users having written too much contradicting information.
It was more difficult to pick up than Open/Net-BSD, but it's way more usable for an end user.
THAT, however, should not be one of your considerations when you want to learn.
Pick the best documented one, not the one that has the most fancy features for your desktop.
:)In the process of installing and fooling around with all these systems, try to build your own firewall for your home computers.
Read up on firewalling - it's a good goal - as to create a useful firewall you'll need to teach yourself TCP/IP in the process.When you feel that you've mastered most of this (you haven't, but that's beside the point) - you should've spent 6-12 months.
It's now time to pick up "Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment".
See: http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Environment-Addison-Wesley-Professional-Computing/dp/0201563177 [amazon.com]This book will teach you a lot, and now that you've used Unix for a while - you'll understand quite a bit of it.
Not all, but it's a good read, and will teach you even more of what you need to know.After fooling around with all this, or preferably in between and along the way, you'll need to:
  - Configure BIND (DNS), and maybe look at djbdns
  - Configure postfix/exim, and maybe also take a look at qmail
  - Configure a dhcp-server.
  - Fool around a bit with apache, building it from source and swearing at it.
:)
  - Set up an nntp-server.
  - Maybe set up an IRC server to fool around with.Also, it's important to get to know a couple of programming languages.
Not necessarily to expert level, but it's important that you fool around with C (not C++, but you might want to learn a bit of that in addition) - plus a couple of scripting languages.
It's important that you teach yourself bash (since it's probably your shell) - in addition to either perl or python.
You'll find camps that say that perl is more important, while other camps will claim that python is more important.
I went with perl first, and I'm now trying to teach myself python.Now, this is a huge list of things to play around with.
There are lots more - but it should give you a good 12-24 months of fooling around and studying.
With all the knowledge you gather from this, if you complete it, you should be ready to get yourself fun, challenging and other frustrating work.
:-)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28376903</id>
	<title>Try a User Experience career</title>
	<author>jddj</author>
	<datestamp>1245351360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your front-line contact with technology users gives you insight into what's troubling them, and your tech knowledge may help you translate user needs for geeks. If you're a good communicator (and can manage not to think of your customers as lUsers), you can work on the solution side: making things easier to use.</p><p>Look for a local chapter of the UPA (Usability Professionals Association), IxDA (Interaction Designers Association), CHI (the CHI sig of SIGGRAPH), or get on Twitter and start to follow UX professionals, information architects, usability researchers to get connected.</p><p>Follow Jakob Nielsen's alertbox columns at www.useit.com, read Boxes and Arrows regularly for a taste of the work that's out there to do.</p><p>Read "Don't Make Me Think" by Steve Krug, if you read no other usability book.</p><p>HTH</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your front-line contact with technology users gives you insight into what 's troubling them , and your tech knowledge may help you translate user needs for geeks .
If you 're a good communicator ( and can manage not to think of your customers as lUsers ) , you can work on the solution side : making things easier to use.Look for a local chapter of the UPA ( Usability Professionals Association ) , IxDA ( Interaction Designers Association ) , CHI ( the CHI sig of SIGGRAPH ) , or get on Twitter and start to follow UX professionals , information architects , usability researchers to get connected.Follow Jakob Nielsen 's alertbox columns at www.useit.com , read Boxes and Arrows regularly for a taste of the work that 's out there to do.Read " Do n't Make Me Think " by Steve Krug , if you read no other usability book.HTH</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your front-line contact with technology users gives you insight into what's troubling them, and your tech knowledge may help you translate user needs for geeks.
If you're a good communicator (and can manage not to think of your customers as lUsers), you can work on the solution side: making things easier to use.Look for a local chapter of the UPA (Usability Professionals Association), IxDA (Interaction Designers Association), CHI (the CHI sig of SIGGRAPH), or get on Twitter and start to follow UX professionals, information architects, usability researchers to get connected.Follow Jakob Nielsen's alertbox columns at www.useit.com, read Boxes and Arrows regularly for a taste of the work that's out there to do.Read "Don't Make Me Think" by Steve Krug, if you read no other usability book.HTH</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371989</id>
	<title>My experience</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245328620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think I'm in a good position to add my thoughts to this one:</p><p>I have a BSc in Business Computing, a HND in Computing with Multimedia, some minor certs for programming and I was sysadmin for a large news site.</p><p>Straight out of University, and I couldn't get a job for 6 months. Eventually I accepted a Helpdesk role for a software company, and that's all I stayed doing for 2 years. What I find is, unless there is a position that comes up that the management thinks you're ready for, you're stuck where you are.</p><p>Knowing that no-one else would hire me for a better job when all I'd done was helpdesk work, I took 6 months off to study for the Microsoft MCSE. The reason? Most businesses use Microsoft clients and servers as their I.T base, so I'd have a good shot at getting a job.</p><p>A few months after studying, I landed myself a role as a Network Admin in a large I.T support company. I worked there as a contractor for a year before taking another 6 months off to study for my Cisco CCNA.</p><p>With those combined I took on a role as a Network Consultant at the previous I.T support company and am now much happier.</p><p>The bottom line is - most places will just want you to fulfill the role they're paying you for. They may be happy for you to learn, but your primary role is the helpdesk monkey you're doing at the moment.</p><p>My advice would be either:</p><p>1. Get friendly with the guys above you. Tell them that you want to learn and ask them to let you take on more technical things. As long as they're not complete a-holes, they'll try to help you out learning more 'techie' stuff.</p><p>2. Quit. Take time out to study for a real-world business situation (I loved my degree, but very little of it was relevant directly to my job). Once you've got that down, more places will consider you for more interesting things. I'd suggest Microsoft software as you've probably got a good handle on it now, and go from there.</p><p>AC.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think I 'm in a good position to add my thoughts to this one : I have a BSc in Business Computing , a HND in Computing with Multimedia , some minor certs for programming and I was sysadmin for a large news site.Straight out of University , and I could n't get a job for 6 months .
Eventually I accepted a Helpdesk role for a software company , and that 's all I stayed doing for 2 years .
What I find is , unless there is a position that comes up that the management thinks you 're ready for , you 're stuck where you are.Knowing that no-one else would hire me for a better job when all I 'd done was helpdesk work , I took 6 months off to study for the Microsoft MCSE .
The reason ?
Most businesses use Microsoft clients and servers as their I.T base , so I 'd have a good shot at getting a job.A few months after studying , I landed myself a role as a Network Admin in a large I.T support company .
I worked there as a contractor for a year before taking another 6 months off to study for my Cisco CCNA.With those combined I took on a role as a Network Consultant at the previous I.T support company and am now much happier.The bottom line is - most places will just want you to fulfill the role they 're paying you for .
They may be happy for you to learn , but your primary role is the helpdesk monkey you 're doing at the moment.My advice would be either : 1 .
Get friendly with the guys above you .
Tell them that you want to learn and ask them to let you take on more technical things .
As long as they 're not complete a-holes , they 'll try to help you out learning more 'techie ' stuff.2 .
Quit. Take time out to study for a real-world business situation ( I loved my degree , but very little of it was relevant directly to my job ) .
Once you 've got that down , more places will consider you for more interesting things .
I 'd suggest Microsoft software as you 've probably got a good handle on it now , and go from there.AC .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think I'm in a good position to add my thoughts to this one:I have a BSc in Business Computing, a HND in Computing with Multimedia, some minor certs for programming and I was sysadmin for a large news site.Straight out of University, and I couldn't get a job for 6 months.
Eventually I accepted a Helpdesk role for a software company, and that's all I stayed doing for 2 years.
What I find is, unless there is a position that comes up that the management thinks you're ready for, you're stuck where you are.Knowing that no-one else would hire me for a better job when all I'd done was helpdesk work, I took 6 months off to study for the Microsoft MCSE.
The reason?
Most businesses use Microsoft clients and servers as their I.T base, so I'd have a good shot at getting a job.A few months after studying, I landed myself a role as a Network Admin in a large I.T support company.
I worked there as a contractor for a year before taking another 6 months off to study for my Cisco CCNA.With those combined I took on a role as a Network Consultant at the previous I.T support company and am now much happier.The bottom line is - most places will just want you to fulfill the role they're paying you for.
They may be happy for you to learn, but your primary role is the helpdesk monkey you're doing at the moment.My advice would be either:1.
Get friendly with the guys above you.
Tell them that you want to learn and ask them to let you take on more technical things.
As long as they're not complete a-holes, they'll try to help you out learning more 'techie' stuff.2.
Quit. Take time out to study for a real-world business situation (I loved my degree, but very little of it was relevant directly to my job).
Once you've got that down, more places will consider you for more interesting things.
I'd suggest Microsoft software as you've probably got a good handle on it now, and go from there.AC.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370745</id>
	<title>Start Networking and Start Investing</title>
	<author>PotatoHead</author>
	<datestamp>1245315660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>in new tech skills.</p><p>I've made similar jumps twice before and currently am working on my third.  Here's the secret sauce:</p><p>1. Identify some set of niches that:</p><p>-can provide for you leveraging many of the skills you have right now<br>-that you feel some passion for<br>-that appear to be up and coming trends.</p><p>2.  You want the passion because you then:</p><p>-start building those skills appropriate for the niche in your free time<br>-consume trade / technical / political / business information about that niche to become relevant and learn the lingo<br>-identify companies whose profile matches how / who you want to work with.</p><p>3.  Network, network, network</p><p>-do lunch with people that know the people who occupy the niche<br>-ideally do lunch with those people who are in the niche<br>-get involved with activities where outsiders can participate<br>-do projects, demonstrations, etc.. where you can show skill.</p><p>This one might mean doing a bit of work for free.  So be it.  It's an investment, so long as you are making forward progress.  Just don't get exploited without some clear return and you are fine.</p><p>4.  Start asking for the job.</p><p>-somebody you know will vouch for you, want to give you a shot, provide a good reference, etc...<br>-let them know your passion.  If you've done your homework, they will see this and it will resonate.<br>-be avaliable, even if part time and even if that is rough at first.</p><p>5.  DON'T</p><p>-brag on this where you work now.  That is pissing in your own pool and it is bad.<br>-count on scoring the opportunity and ending up with nothing, particularly right now<br>-lie to yourself about your prospects.  Your networking will have told you your real chances.<br>-do stupid things, make stupid statements, get involved in contraversies surrounding your target niche<br>-forget your family, friends and such.  This can be managed and you will have to manage it</p><p>6.  Consider:</p><p>-secondary education<br>-technical training online<br>-attending conferences<br>-moving.  I'm serious about that one.  There are hot spots and not spots.  If you are in the not zone, you need to leave, or give it up.</p><p>With me, it was a transition from manufacturing to IT/IS sysadmin related things.  Many of the manufacturing computer related skills mapped over.  Many other skills needed to be learned.  I met a few sysadmins who were happy to show me the ropes, recommend prospects and give me advice.</p><p>From there, I moved into CAD.  3D solid modeling CAD.  Have been there for a while, with a side move to more pre-sales and account management stuff.  It kind of sucks, but hey!  It's very difficult to outsource that stuff.</p><p>If you haven't noticed, there has been a hell of a lot of outsourcing.  That's the reason for my jumps so far.  That sucks too.</p><p>Now, it's micro controllers and embedded things.  After all the stuff, high performance computing, CAD, networks, etc... I find I really like small computers that do interesting and small scale things.  That's where the fun is for me.  So, I'm doing the above and seeing some early success.</p><p>I'm still honestly not sure of my chances.  Getting older sucks.  I'm not so old that it's an issue, but it does limit how far down I can burn both ends of the candle.  The ride is good right now though.  Building things, writing simple goofy games, learning CPU's and having little bits of hardware do this and that is great fun.  So, I'm on #2 and #3, with a conference or two planned to meet 'n greet and find out how it all really works on the professional end.</p><p>The niche is big, so I've still to sort out where I want / need to play and whether or not it's worth it.  And that's my final point.  To do this right, you've got to go down the road a ways.  You may find it's a dead end.  No harm as long as you had some fun.  Start over and try again, and again.</p><p>Good luck.  In this economy it's gonna be tough.  Seriously consider splitting your time between the jump, and securing your own current position.  All of this</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>in new tech skills.I 've made similar jumps twice before and currently am working on my third .
Here 's the secret sauce : 1 .
Identify some set of niches that : -can provide for you leveraging many of the skills you have right now-that you feel some passion for-that appear to be up and coming trends.2 .
You want the passion because you then : -start building those skills appropriate for the niche in your free time-consume trade / technical / political / business information about that niche to become relevant and learn the lingo-identify companies whose profile matches how / who you want to work with.3 .
Network , network , network-do lunch with people that know the people who occupy the niche-ideally do lunch with those people who are in the niche-get involved with activities where outsiders can participate-do projects , demonstrations , etc.. where you can show skill.This one might mean doing a bit of work for free .
So be it .
It 's an investment , so long as you are making forward progress .
Just do n't get exploited without some clear return and you are fine.4 .
Start asking for the job.-somebody you know will vouch for you , want to give you a shot , provide a good reference , etc...-let them know your passion .
If you 've done your homework , they will see this and it will resonate.-be avaliable , even if part time and even if that is rough at first.5 .
DO N'T-brag on this where you work now .
That is pissing in your own pool and it is bad.-count on scoring the opportunity and ending up with nothing , particularly right now-lie to yourself about your prospects .
Your networking will have told you your real chances.-do stupid things , make stupid statements , get involved in contraversies surrounding your target niche-forget your family , friends and such .
This can be managed and you will have to manage it6 .
Consider : -secondary education-technical training online-attending conferences-moving .
I 'm serious about that one .
There are hot spots and not spots .
If you are in the not zone , you need to leave , or give it up.With me , it was a transition from manufacturing to IT/IS sysadmin related things .
Many of the manufacturing computer related skills mapped over .
Many other skills needed to be learned .
I met a few sysadmins who were happy to show me the ropes , recommend prospects and give me advice.From there , I moved into CAD .
3D solid modeling CAD .
Have been there for a while , with a side move to more pre-sales and account management stuff .
It kind of sucks , but hey !
It 's very difficult to outsource that stuff.If you have n't noticed , there has been a hell of a lot of outsourcing .
That 's the reason for my jumps so far .
That sucks too.Now , it 's micro controllers and embedded things .
After all the stuff , high performance computing , CAD , networks , etc... I find I really like small computers that do interesting and small scale things .
That 's where the fun is for me .
So , I 'm doing the above and seeing some early success.I 'm still honestly not sure of my chances .
Getting older sucks .
I 'm not so old that it 's an issue , but it does limit how far down I can burn both ends of the candle .
The ride is good right now though .
Building things , writing simple goofy games , learning CPU 's and having little bits of hardware do this and that is great fun .
So , I 'm on # 2 and # 3 , with a conference or two planned to meet 'n greet and find out how it all really works on the professional end.The niche is big , so I 've still to sort out where I want / need to play and whether or not it 's worth it .
And that 's my final point .
To do this right , you 've got to go down the road a ways .
You may find it 's a dead end .
No harm as long as you had some fun .
Start over and try again , and again.Good luck .
In this economy it 's gon na be tough .
Seriously consider splitting your time between the jump , and securing your own current position .
All of this</tokentext>
<sentencetext>in new tech skills.I've made similar jumps twice before and currently am working on my third.
Here's the secret sauce:1.
Identify some set of niches that:-can provide for you leveraging many of the skills you have right now-that you feel some passion for-that appear to be up and coming trends.2.
You want the passion because you then:-start building those skills appropriate for the niche in your free time-consume trade / technical / political / business information about that niche to become relevant and learn the lingo-identify companies whose profile matches how / who you want to work with.3.
Network, network, network-do lunch with people that know the people who occupy the niche-ideally do lunch with those people who are in the niche-get involved with activities where outsiders can participate-do projects, demonstrations, etc.. where you can show skill.This one might mean doing a bit of work for free.
So be it.
It's an investment, so long as you are making forward progress.
Just don't get exploited without some clear return and you are fine.4.
Start asking for the job.-somebody you know will vouch for you, want to give you a shot, provide a good reference, etc...-let them know your passion.
If you've done your homework, they will see this and it will resonate.-be avaliable, even if part time and even if that is rough at first.5.
DON'T-brag on this where you work now.
That is pissing in your own pool and it is bad.-count on scoring the opportunity and ending up with nothing, particularly right now-lie to yourself about your prospects.
Your networking will have told you your real chances.-do stupid things, make stupid statements, get involved in contraversies surrounding your target niche-forget your family, friends and such.
This can be managed and you will have to manage it6.
Consider:-secondary education-technical training online-attending conferences-moving.
I'm serious about that one.
There are hot spots and not spots.
If you are in the not zone, you need to leave, or give it up.With me, it was a transition from manufacturing to IT/IS sysadmin related things.
Many of the manufacturing computer related skills mapped over.
Many other skills needed to be learned.
I met a few sysadmins who were happy to show me the ropes, recommend prospects and give me advice.From there, I moved into CAD.
3D solid modeling CAD.
Have been there for a while, with a side move to more pre-sales and account management stuff.
It kind of sucks, but hey!
It's very difficult to outsource that stuff.If you haven't noticed, there has been a hell of a lot of outsourcing.
That's the reason for my jumps so far.
That sucks too.Now, it's micro controllers and embedded things.
After all the stuff, high performance computing, CAD, networks, etc... I find I really like small computers that do interesting and small scale things.
That's where the fun is for me.
So, I'm doing the above and seeing some early success.I'm still honestly not sure of my chances.
Getting older sucks.
I'm not so old that it's an issue, but it does limit how far down I can burn both ends of the candle.
The ride is good right now though.
Building things, writing simple goofy games, learning CPU's and having little bits of hardware do this and that is great fun.
So, I'm on #2 and #3, with a conference or two planned to meet 'n greet and find out how it all really works on the professional end.The niche is big, so I've still to sort out where I want / need to play and whether or not it's worth it.
And that's my final point.
To do this right, you've got to go down the road a ways.
You may find it's a dead end.
No harm as long as you had some fun.
Start over and try again, and again.Good luck.
In this economy it's gonna be tough.
Seriously consider splitting your time between the jump, and securing your own current position.
All of this</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372097</id>
	<title>start doing your next job anyway</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245329640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here's a strategy I used when I was a support rep on a help desk for a similar sized group:</p><ol> <li>Positive attitude.  Don't call it helldesk unless you like that particular self-fulfilling prophecy.  Privately relish the fact that as long as you know a little more than the next guy they can't tell you apart from Einstein, accept their compliments when you solve their problems, for the people out there with open minds who want to learn to be self-sufficient, teach them what you know instead of being condescending to them so they can start solving their own problems and giving you more time, etc. </li><li>Find one way to optimize your current job every day and give yourself more time.  The book "Getting Things Done" might help, particularly the flowchart about how to deal with incoming "stuff" rapidly and build a system of getting stuff taken care of quickly. Become very efficient at the types of tasks you always have to do, like the ones you mentioned, so you can be in and out quickly.   Also spend some time looking for root cause so you can prevent them from happening in the first place.   If you have enough calls coming in and you don't already have this, see if you can set up a "dispatcher" system so there is always someone sitting at the desk waiting for incoming calls and then logging them.  Our dispatchers didn't get paid as much, but they made the system go a lot smoother.</li><li>Use the extra time you gain from whatever optimization you come up with to study up on whatever it is you want your next thing to be.  This way you always have the outward appearance of being super busy and committed to your work even though you are spending less and less time having to help people out or maintain systems.  If you want to learn SQL set up a SQL database for your ticketing system that will further optimize your work, or build a "dashboard" that will let you spot trends by querying your current incoming work ticket system.  If you want to try web design, start going through the HTML on the company website, "view source" from the browser if that's all you have access to, and look for ways you might be able to make it better.  Then come up with a prototype for it.  If you want to learn Web 2.0 see if you can build some widget for lawyers on facebook that will be good for their business or drives up referrals and testimonials or something.  If you want to learn graphics programming start coming up with some kind of flash animations or something with lawyer joke of the day or something with your business name and email address baked in or something.  Whatever your thing is, if you come up with something good, you might be given more time to do more of it.  If not, and you were just using time you saved by optimizing your other everyday work and are actually lowering call rates and improving your time-to-fix in the process, it doesn't matter how many of these ventures of yours suceed or fail.  Chalk failures up to a learning experience, those are required to learn.  And you get to own all the victories, now you have a new type of skill you can apply to something else in the future or put on your resume and talk about during interviews.  Don't feel victimized - like your employer owes it to you to teach you everything, check out books from the library, find out what books a training course would use and just buy those instead of buying the class, etc.   In my experience when you are interviewing for your next job, being able to say you did such-and-such on the job and talk about it during the interview is better than saying you read about such-and-such in college but don't have any on-the-job experience.  That said, I got my current job because the company recruiters came to my school and basically looked for people with CS degrees, so the degree was what got them to consider me.  But they also do "industry hires" and some of the best people I work with don't have a college degree, so you just need to find whatever's going to get you in front of a hiring manager during an interview process.   After that it's the proven te</li></ol></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's a strategy I used when I was a support rep on a help desk for a similar sized group : Positive attitude .
Do n't call it helldesk unless you like that particular self-fulfilling prophecy .
Privately relish the fact that as long as you know a little more than the next guy they ca n't tell you apart from Einstein , accept their compliments when you solve their problems , for the people out there with open minds who want to learn to be self-sufficient , teach them what you know instead of being condescending to them so they can start solving their own problems and giving you more time , etc .
Find one way to optimize your current job every day and give yourself more time .
The book " Getting Things Done " might help , particularly the flowchart about how to deal with incoming " stuff " rapidly and build a system of getting stuff taken care of quickly .
Become very efficient at the types of tasks you always have to do , like the ones you mentioned , so you can be in and out quickly .
Also spend some time looking for root cause so you can prevent them from happening in the first place .
If you have enough calls coming in and you do n't already have this , see if you can set up a " dispatcher " system so there is always someone sitting at the desk waiting for incoming calls and then logging them .
Our dispatchers did n't get paid as much , but they made the system go a lot smoother.Use the extra time you gain from whatever optimization you come up with to study up on whatever it is you want your next thing to be .
This way you always have the outward appearance of being super busy and committed to your work even though you are spending less and less time having to help people out or maintain systems .
If you want to learn SQL set up a SQL database for your ticketing system that will further optimize your work , or build a " dashboard " that will let you spot trends by querying your current incoming work ticket system .
If you want to try web design , start going through the HTML on the company website , " view source " from the browser if that 's all you have access to , and look for ways you might be able to make it better .
Then come up with a prototype for it .
If you want to learn Web 2.0 see if you can build some widget for lawyers on facebook that will be good for their business or drives up referrals and testimonials or something .
If you want to learn graphics programming start coming up with some kind of flash animations or something with lawyer joke of the day or something with your business name and email address baked in or something .
Whatever your thing is , if you come up with something good , you might be given more time to do more of it .
If not , and you were just using time you saved by optimizing your other everyday work and are actually lowering call rates and improving your time-to-fix in the process , it does n't matter how many of these ventures of yours suceed or fail .
Chalk failures up to a learning experience , those are required to learn .
And you get to own all the victories , now you have a new type of skill you can apply to something else in the future or put on your resume and talk about during interviews .
Do n't feel victimized - like your employer owes it to you to teach you everything , check out books from the library , find out what books a training course would use and just buy those instead of buying the class , etc .
In my experience when you are interviewing for your next job , being able to say you did such-and-such on the job and talk about it during the interview is better than saying you read about such-and-such in college but do n't have any on-the-job experience .
That said , I got my current job because the company recruiters came to my school and basically looked for people with CS degrees , so the degree was what got them to consider me .
But they also do " industry hires " and some of the best people I work with do n't have a college degree , so you just need to find whatever 's going to get you in front of a hiring manager during an interview process .
After that it 's the proven te</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's a strategy I used when I was a support rep on a help desk for a similar sized group: Positive attitude.
Don't call it helldesk unless you like that particular self-fulfilling prophecy.
Privately relish the fact that as long as you know a little more than the next guy they can't tell you apart from Einstein, accept their compliments when you solve their problems, for the people out there with open minds who want to learn to be self-sufficient, teach them what you know instead of being condescending to them so they can start solving their own problems and giving you more time, etc.
Find one way to optimize your current job every day and give yourself more time.
The book "Getting Things Done" might help, particularly the flowchart about how to deal with incoming "stuff" rapidly and build a system of getting stuff taken care of quickly.
Become very efficient at the types of tasks you always have to do, like the ones you mentioned, so you can be in and out quickly.
Also spend some time looking for root cause so you can prevent them from happening in the first place.
If you have enough calls coming in and you don't already have this, see if you can set up a "dispatcher" system so there is always someone sitting at the desk waiting for incoming calls and then logging them.
Our dispatchers didn't get paid as much, but they made the system go a lot smoother.Use the extra time you gain from whatever optimization you come up with to study up on whatever it is you want your next thing to be.
This way you always have the outward appearance of being super busy and committed to your work even though you are spending less and less time having to help people out or maintain systems.
If you want to learn SQL set up a SQL database for your ticketing system that will further optimize your work, or build a "dashboard" that will let you spot trends by querying your current incoming work ticket system.
If you want to try web design, start going through the HTML on the company website, "view source" from the browser if that's all you have access to, and look for ways you might be able to make it better.
Then come up with a prototype for it.
If you want to learn Web 2.0 see if you can build some widget for lawyers on facebook that will be good for their business or drives up referrals and testimonials or something.
If you want to learn graphics programming start coming up with some kind of flash animations or something with lawyer joke of the day or something with your business name and email address baked in or something.
Whatever your thing is, if you come up with something good, you might be given more time to do more of it.
If not, and you were just using time you saved by optimizing your other everyday work and are actually lowering call rates and improving your time-to-fix in the process, it doesn't matter how many of these ventures of yours suceed or fail.
Chalk failures up to a learning experience, those are required to learn.
And you get to own all the victories, now you have a new type of skill you can apply to something else in the future or put on your resume and talk about during interviews.
Don't feel victimized - like your employer owes it to you to teach you everything, check out books from the library, find out what books a training course would use and just buy those instead of buying the class, etc.
In my experience when you are interviewing for your next job, being able to say you did such-and-such on the job and talk about it during the interview is better than saying you read about such-and-such in college but don't have any on-the-job experience.
That said, I got my current job because the company recruiters came to my school and basically looked for people with CS degrees, so the degree was what got them to consider me.
But they also do "industry hires" and some of the best people I work with don't have a college degree, so you just need to find whatever's going to get you in front of a hiring manager during an interview process.
After that it's the proven te</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372731</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Alaska/Yukon</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245334140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Another alternative is to try the education path (the schools 'computer guy').  The hours are good (no taking work home) and there is plenty of time to relax and chat.  Of course, this is assuming you can deal with snot-nosed punk kids and teachers who cant get fired and have no reason to learn any technology.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Another alternative is to try the education path ( the schools 'computer guy ' ) .
The hours are good ( no taking work home ) and there is plenty of time to relax and chat .
Of course , this is assuming you can deal with snot-nosed punk kids and teachers who cant get fired and have no reason to learn any technology .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Another alternative is to try the education path (the schools 'computer guy').
The hours are good (no taking work home) and there is plenty of time to relax and chat.
Of course, this is assuming you can deal with snot-nosed punk kids and teachers who cant get fired and have no reason to learn any technology.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371529</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372573</id>
	<title>Take a Step Back</title>
	<author>Khue</author>
	<datestamp>1245333360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>One thing I would like to point out, is that this guy is saying he's been on the helpdesk for more then a year. To me this indicates less then two years. I'm a Sysadmin of a relatively small shop. I am pretty young and I've been in IT (counting helpdesk as IT) for over 10 years. I worked helpdesk in high school and through most of college, doing both full time work and full time school. I graduated with an IT related college degree. Once I got my education the world wasn't handed to me on a silver platter nor was I doing anything significant with my degree. I was still jockeying phones like a monkey. That being said, it wasn't like I was answering phones in a Verizon call center either. I was basically a hybrid level 1, 2, 3, and Sysadmin employee rolled into one. Opportunity comes at different times and I would tend to think that after a year at any organization of being on the helpdesk, you really wouldn't be looked at as being a candidate for a Sysadmin position. On top of that you don't have a degree or certifications (this is a guess). Is IT really your passion? Or is it a hobby? To be honest with you, the poster sounds extremely green and reality needs to set in that you aren't going to be maintaining full systems after a year of being on the helpdesk anywhere. I would imagine the same story could be told from the perspective of a developer. It's not like you would be coding production stuff after a full year of helpdesking. You need to put in your time and due diligence, get your education, and show that you are deserving of the next level. This is all day one stuff guys...</htmltext>
<tokenext>One thing I would like to point out , is that this guy is saying he 's been on the helpdesk for more then a year .
To me this indicates less then two years .
I 'm a Sysadmin of a relatively small shop .
I am pretty young and I 've been in IT ( counting helpdesk as IT ) for over 10 years .
I worked helpdesk in high school and through most of college , doing both full time work and full time school .
I graduated with an IT related college degree .
Once I got my education the world was n't handed to me on a silver platter nor was I doing anything significant with my degree .
I was still jockeying phones like a monkey .
That being said , it was n't like I was answering phones in a Verizon call center either .
I was basically a hybrid level 1 , 2 , 3 , and Sysadmin employee rolled into one .
Opportunity comes at different times and I would tend to think that after a year at any organization of being on the helpdesk , you really would n't be looked at as being a candidate for a Sysadmin position .
On top of that you do n't have a degree or certifications ( this is a guess ) .
Is IT really your passion ?
Or is it a hobby ?
To be honest with you , the poster sounds extremely green and reality needs to set in that you are n't going to be maintaining full systems after a year of being on the helpdesk anywhere .
I would imagine the same story could be told from the perspective of a developer .
It 's not like you would be coding production stuff after a full year of helpdesking .
You need to put in your time and due diligence , get your education , and show that you are deserving of the next level .
This is all day one stuff guys.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One thing I would like to point out, is that this guy is saying he's been on the helpdesk for more then a year.
To me this indicates less then two years.
I'm a Sysadmin of a relatively small shop.
I am pretty young and I've been in IT (counting helpdesk as IT) for over 10 years.
I worked helpdesk in high school and through most of college, doing both full time work and full time school.
I graduated with an IT related college degree.
Once I got my education the world wasn't handed to me on a silver platter nor was I doing anything significant with my degree.
I was still jockeying phones like a monkey.
That being said, it wasn't like I was answering phones in a Verizon call center either.
I was basically a hybrid level 1, 2, 3, and Sysadmin employee rolled into one.
Opportunity comes at different times and I would tend to think that after a year at any organization of being on the helpdesk, you really wouldn't be looked at as being a candidate for a Sysadmin position.
On top of that you don't have a degree or certifications (this is a guess).
Is IT really your passion?
Or is it a hobby?
To be honest with you, the poster sounds extremely green and reality needs to set in that you aren't going to be maintaining full systems after a year of being on the helpdesk anywhere.
I would imagine the same story could be told from the perspective of a developer.
It's not like you would be coding production stuff after a full year of helpdesking.
You need to put in your time and due diligence, get your education, and show that you are deserving of the next level.
This is all day one stuff guys...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28375107</id>
	<title>Helpdesk</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245344400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>an internal helpdesk for only 200 users - at that size i'm suprised it's not outsourced - count yourself lucky.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>an internal helpdesk for only 200 users - at that size i 'm suprised it 's not outsourced - count yourself lucky .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>an internal helpdesk for only 200 users - at that size i'm suprised it's not outsourced - count yourself lucky.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28403999</id>
	<title>Re:What degree do you have?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245489300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>None!... but i'm getting lots of experience!.. and i'm not answering phones front line anymore.. What you need to have is a love of finding real solutions to problems, and the ability to implement them smoothly. If there is a problem, such an application locking up over and over, that is generating lots of irritations to your leisure time on the job, you could spend a little time researching a permanent fix. Yes, i'm sure there are "admins" who are supposed to take care of that.. but maybe you could generate a well written email instructing people on details to working around their problem for now, while you urge the software developers to provide a fix.. you could even spend time generating "extra good" log files to really pinpoint the cause of the failure. This is the kind of team work, and dedication that will get you recognized in the workplace. Plus it makes your life much much easier, and users are happy too! If there is no where to move up, or no salary worth the trouble, spend your time supporting small businesses. You'll gain a ton of experience in a broad range of topics, and hopefully some recommendation letters, or job opportunities worth looking into. I started as an installer/helpdesk support, and now i'm a admin/solution developer. All day long i get to fix peoples problems, and help make them smarter IT people.. It's a blast.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>None ! .. .
but i 'm getting lots of experience ! . .
and i 'm not answering phones front line anymore.. What you need to have is a love of finding real solutions to problems , and the ability to implement them smoothly .
If there is a problem , such an application locking up over and over , that is generating lots of irritations to your leisure time on the job , you could spend a little time researching a permanent fix .
Yes , i 'm sure there are " admins " who are supposed to take care of that.. but maybe you could generate a well written email instructing people on details to working around their problem for now , while you urge the software developers to provide a fix.. you could even spend time generating " extra good " log files to really pinpoint the cause of the failure .
This is the kind of team work , and dedication that will get you recognized in the workplace .
Plus it makes your life much much easier , and users are happy too !
If there is no where to move up , or no salary worth the trouble , spend your time supporting small businesses .
You 'll gain a ton of experience in a broad range of topics , and hopefully some recommendation letters , or job opportunities worth looking into .
I started as an installer/helpdesk support , and now i 'm a admin/solution developer .
All day long i get to fix peoples problems , and help make them smarter IT people.. It 's a blast .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>None!...
but i'm getting lots of experience!..
and i'm not answering phones front line anymore.. What you need to have is a love of finding real solutions to problems, and the ability to implement them smoothly.
If there is a problem, such an application locking up over and over, that is generating lots of irritations to your leisure time on the job, you could spend a little time researching a permanent fix.
Yes, i'm sure there are "admins" who are supposed to take care of that.. but maybe you could generate a well written email instructing people on details to working around their problem for now, while you urge the software developers to provide a fix.. you could even spend time generating "extra good" log files to really pinpoint the cause of the failure.
This is the kind of team work, and dedication that will get you recognized in the workplace.
Plus it makes your life much much easier, and users are happy too!
If there is no where to move up, or no salary worth the trouble, spend your time supporting small businesses.
You'll gain a ton of experience in a broad range of topics, and hopefully some recommendation letters, or job opportunities worth looking into.
I started as an installer/helpdesk support, and now i'm a admin/solution developer.
All day long i get to fix peoples problems, and help make them smarter IT people.. It's a blast.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369587</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373515</id>
	<title>Reboot</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245337860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm sure if you just reboot yourself 3 times, all of your problems will fix themselves right up</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sure if you just reboot yourself 3 times , all of your problems will fix themselves right up</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sure if you just reboot yourself 3 times, all of your problems will fix themselves right up</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369647</id>
	<title>Run For Your Life.  Now.</title>
	<author>Daniel\_Staal</author>
	<datestamp>1245259860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You seem to be under the misapprehension that it gets better once you are out of the helpdesk.  It only looks like it does.  You get less stupid end-users, and more stupid bosses.</p><p>Get out, now, while you still can.  Go get a degree in plumbing, or electrical work.  (Heck, if you want to stay with computers, get certified to install fiber.  It's only going to grow, and I've had trouble finding anyone to install it in the new house.)  Something that doesn't expect you for the rest of your life to be answering the phone at 12:45am on random nights.</p><p>Got to run, the pager's going off...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You seem to be under the misapprehension that it gets better once you are out of the helpdesk .
It only looks like it does .
You get less stupid end-users , and more stupid bosses.Get out , now , while you still can .
Go get a degree in plumbing , or electrical work .
( Heck , if you want to stay with computers , get certified to install fiber .
It 's only going to grow , and I 've had trouble finding anyone to install it in the new house .
) Something that does n't expect you for the rest of your life to be answering the phone at 12 : 45am on random nights.Got to run , the pager 's going off.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You seem to be under the misapprehension that it gets better once you are out of the helpdesk.
It only looks like it does.
You get less stupid end-users, and more stupid bosses.Get out, now, while you still can.
Go get a degree in plumbing, or electrical work.
(Heck, if you want to stay with computers, get certified to install fiber.
It's only going to grow, and I've had trouble finding anyone to install it in the new house.
)  Something that doesn't expect you for the rest of your life to be answering the phone at 12:45am on random nights.Got to run, the pager's going off...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374123</id>
	<title>Missing the Opportunities at HelpDesk?</title>
	<author>mpapet</author>
	<datestamp>1245340440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would argue that formal training is not what it's cracked up to be for most of us, so going back to school might not work out as planned.</p><p>Okay, so your current position lacks a clear path to upward mobility.  If the question is really about upward mobility in your career, then consider the following.</p><p>There are critically important political skills you can learn on help desk.  As is often the case with the more technically inclined, their social skills are lacking.  The social skills I'm referencing are more about the machinations of influence and business communication.   In my experience, senior/executive IT have excellent social skills.  They end up getting paid more for managing the technical experts because they look/act like a manager/exec and can communicate as an executive.</p><p>If that made no sense, then just look for valuable opportunities to strengthen your skill set on the job.  Strengthen those weak areas and take them elsewhere if the employer does not value them.  Universities probably don't teach what you want to get out of your career.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would argue that formal training is not what it 's cracked up to be for most of us , so going back to school might not work out as planned.Okay , so your current position lacks a clear path to upward mobility .
If the question is really about upward mobility in your career , then consider the following.There are critically important political skills you can learn on help desk .
As is often the case with the more technically inclined , their social skills are lacking .
The social skills I 'm referencing are more about the machinations of influence and business communication .
In my experience , senior/executive IT have excellent social skills .
They end up getting paid more for managing the technical experts because they look/act like a manager/exec and can communicate as an executive.If that made no sense , then just look for valuable opportunities to strengthen your skill set on the job .
Strengthen those weak areas and take them elsewhere if the employer does not value them .
Universities probably do n't teach what you want to get out of your career .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would argue that formal training is not what it's cracked up to be for most of us, so going back to school might not work out as planned.Okay, so your current position lacks a clear path to upward mobility.
If the question is really about upward mobility in your career, then consider the following.There are critically important political skills you can learn on help desk.
As is often the case with the more technically inclined, their social skills are lacking.
The social skills I'm referencing are more about the machinations of influence and business communication.
In my experience, senior/executive IT have excellent social skills.
They end up getting paid more for managing the technical experts because they look/act like a manager/exec and can communicate as an executive.If that made no sense, then just look for valuable opportunities to strengthen your skill set on the job.
Strengthen those weak areas and take them elsewhere if the employer does not value them.
Universities probably don't teach what you want to get out of your career.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28375001</id>
	<title>If you can get the Master's, do it.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245343920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>It will provide income benefits for life.  Seriously.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It will provide income benefits for life .
Seriously .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It will provide income benefits for life.
Seriously.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371259</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Futil3</author>
	<datestamp>1245320160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Wish I had mod points. Thanks for your insights.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Wish I had mod points .
Thanks for your insights .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wish I had mod points.
Thanks for your insights.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371529</id>
	<title>Move to Alaska/Yukon</title>
	<author>Minupla</author>
	<datestamp>1245323460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Move to somewhere with very few people, like the Yukon Territory.  That's how I started my IT career when it became obvious that in the big city it didn't matter how good I was, I was looking at doing my time in helpdesk.  If you're serious about IT as a career, and can't stand doing your time on the line, that's one alternative.  By the end of my 5 years up there I had run a regional ISP, and been the head network person for the Dept of Eduction.  Also nothing makes you look good like being able to tell the cliche bear stories.  My favorite though is the time the internet went out because a hunter with bad aim missed a moose and hit the waveguide on one of the microwave towers I was using!</p><p>Now here's the bad news:<br>I've been doing IT for almost 20 years, I manage the architecture team for a mid sized business with offices in 3 cities and 2 countries, I hold a CISSP and am responsible for the security of the company, and the owners/CEO/Execs STILL asks me to fix their computer.  On the plus side I'd say my average between interruptions is down to about 20 mins.  The interruptions tend to also be bigger problems.  Some days I wish rebooting the PC would solve the tickets that get assigned to me, but my desktop support guy is good at that<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>Min</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Move to somewhere with very few people , like the Yukon Territory .
That 's how I started my IT career when it became obvious that in the big city it did n't matter how good I was , I was looking at doing my time in helpdesk .
If you 're serious about IT as a career , and ca n't stand doing your time on the line , that 's one alternative .
By the end of my 5 years up there I had run a regional ISP , and been the head network person for the Dept of Eduction .
Also nothing makes you look good like being able to tell the cliche bear stories .
My favorite though is the time the internet went out because a hunter with bad aim missed a moose and hit the waveguide on one of the microwave towers I was using ! Now here 's the bad news : I 've been doing IT for almost 20 years , I manage the architecture team for a mid sized business with offices in 3 cities and 2 countries , I hold a CISSP and am responsible for the security of the company , and the owners/CEO/Execs STILL asks me to fix their computer .
On the plus side I 'd say my average between interruptions is down to about 20 mins .
The interruptions tend to also be bigger problems .
Some days I wish rebooting the PC would solve the tickets that get assigned to me , but my desktop support guy is good at that : ) Min</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Move to somewhere with very few people, like the Yukon Territory.
That's how I started my IT career when it became obvious that in the big city it didn't matter how good I was, I was looking at doing my time in helpdesk.
If you're serious about IT as a career, and can't stand doing your time on the line, that's one alternative.
By the end of my 5 years up there I had run a regional ISP, and been the head network person for the Dept of Eduction.
Also nothing makes you look good like being able to tell the cliche bear stories.
My favorite though is the time the internet went out because a hunter with bad aim missed a moose and hit the waveguide on one of the microwave towers I was using!Now here's the bad news:I've been doing IT for almost 20 years, I manage the architecture team for a mid sized business with offices in 3 cities and 2 countries, I hold a CISSP and am responsible for the security of the company, and the owners/CEO/Execs STILL asks me to fix their computer.
On the plus side I'd say my average between interruptions is down to about 20 mins.
The interruptions tend to also be bigger problems.
Some days I wish rebooting the PC would solve the tickets that get assigned to me, but my desktop support guy is good at that :)Min</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374899</id>
	<title>good jobs come from the inside</title>
	<author>anger99</author>
	<datestamp>1245343500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have been a tech since 14 ( 28 now, dos age 4) and now work maintaining a mainframe( the z800) for a datacenter ( great job).
I have been the on-site guy for big companies that want the job done asap, and will cut any corner to do so. As well as the small companies that like to do good work for their customers so they will come back. I have seen about a 3-5 year burnout rate for techs in all fields of support, and the only ones that have job are the ones who network the best.
Side note:
Support as a whole is not a place to stay, the iron assed lifers have a certain attitude that they have that will allow them, and only them, to continue past the initial 5 years of self-loathing and humanity draining known as helldesk.
These are just good places to find out which of your talents in computers will best serve your future.
So:
1) NETWORK NETWORK NETWORK !!!
2) Do great work, everyone can do good work, but great work stands out

p.s. take any shot you get, this eceonmy is very unforgiving right now, but just right now</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have been a tech since 14 ( 28 now , dos age 4 ) and now work maintaining a mainframe ( the z800 ) for a datacenter ( great job ) .
I have been the on-site guy for big companies that want the job done asap , and will cut any corner to do so .
As well as the small companies that like to do good work for their customers so they will come back .
I have seen about a 3-5 year burnout rate for techs in all fields of support , and the only ones that have job are the ones who network the best .
Side note : Support as a whole is not a place to stay , the iron assed lifers have a certain attitude that they have that will allow them , and only them , to continue past the initial 5 years of self-loathing and humanity draining known as helldesk .
These are just good places to find out which of your talents in computers will best serve your future .
So : 1 ) NETWORK NETWORK NETWORK ! ! !
2 ) Do great work , everyone can do good work , but great work stands out p.s .
take any shot you get , this eceonmy is very unforgiving right now , but just right now</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have been a tech since 14 ( 28 now, dos age 4) and now work maintaining a mainframe( the z800) for a datacenter ( great job).
I have been the on-site guy for big companies that want the job done asap, and will cut any corner to do so.
As well as the small companies that like to do good work for their customers so they will come back.
I have seen about a 3-5 year burnout rate for techs in all fields of support, and the only ones that have job are the ones who network the best.
Side note:
Support as a whole is not a place to stay, the iron assed lifers have a certain attitude that they have that will allow them, and only them, to continue past the initial 5 years of self-loathing and humanity draining known as helldesk.
These are just good places to find out which of your talents in computers will best serve your future.
So:
1) NETWORK NETWORK NETWORK !!!
2) Do great work, everyone can do good work, but great work stands out

p.s.
take any shot you get, this eceonmy is very unforgiving right now, but just right now</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372855</id>
	<title>You are at a similar point to me...</title>
	<author>Melanie1001</author>
	<datestamp>1245334740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>After 14 years of different levels of computer support and helpdesk, from setting up AS/400 terminals to admining a variety of server types and everything in the middle...I've reached an odd point.  Sometimes I wonder if I'm just unlucky, but I have never worked in a place where the users were tech savvy.  If anything most seem to be going backwards.  I spend more time now holding a user's hand than I ever used to.  And after all these years burnout is settling in.  Sadly, unless you move beyond anything in the even remotely support range, things do not seem to get better.  I've started taking seminars regarding starting my own business - not a tech related business I may add.  While I love technology in all it's forms, I don't believe I can go much longer in the support area.  I agree with the other posters that taking yourself in another direction may be your best thing.  You may decide that you do want to continue with support.  You may discover that you never want to do that job again.  Either way, you seem to be young and unattached, this is the time of your life to try new things!  We all get stuck in a rut it seems, that this 'career' we've chosen first has to be what we do for the rest of our lives.  It isn't, and for better growth as a human, it shouldn't be.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>After 14 years of different levels of computer support and helpdesk , from setting up AS/400 terminals to admining a variety of server types and everything in the middle...I 've reached an odd point .
Sometimes I wonder if I 'm just unlucky , but I have never worked in a place where the users were tech savvy .
If anything most seem to be going backwards .
I spend more time now holding a user 's hand than I ever used to .
And after all these years burnout is settling in .
Sadly , unless you move beyond anything in the even remotely support range , things do not seem to get better .
I 've started taking seminars regarding starting my own business - not a tech related business I may add .
While I love technology in all it 's forms , I do n't believe I can go much longer in the support area .
I agree with the other posters that taking yourself in another direction may be your best thing .
You may decide that you do want to continue with support .
You may discover that you never want to do that job again .
Either way , you seem to be young and unattached , this is the time of your life to try new things !
We all get stuck in a rut it seems , that this 'career ' we 've chosen first has to be what we do for the rest of our lives .
It is n't , and for better growth as a human , it should n't be .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>After 14 years of different levels of computer support and helpdesk, from setting up AS/400 terminals to admining a variety of server types and everything in the middle...I've reached an odd point.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm just unlucky, but I have never worked in a place where the users were tech savvy.
If anything most seem to be going backwards.
I spend more time now holding a user's hand than I ever used to.
And after all these years burnout is settling in.
Sadly, unless you move beyond anything in the even remotely support range, things do not seem to get better.
I've started taking seminars regarding starting my own business - not a tech related business I may add.
While I love technology in all it's forms, I don't believe I can go much longer in the support area.
I agree with the other posters that taking yourself in another direction may be your best thing.
You may decide that you do want to continue with support.
You may discover that you never want to do that job again.
Either way, you seem to be young and unattached, this is the time of your life to try new things!
We all get stuck in a rut it seems, that this 'career' we've chosen first has to be what we do for the rest of our lives.
It isn't, and for better growth as a human, it shouldn't be.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370581</id>
	<title>Re:What degree do you have?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245357120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah an economic crisis is a GREAT time to stop working and reduce your income to near zero while increasing your expenses.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah an economic crisis is a GREAT time to stop working and reduce your income to near zero while increasing your expenses .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah an economic crisis is a GREAT time to stop working and reduce your income to near zero while increasing your expenses.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369587</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374009</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Bill, Shooter of Bul</author>
	<datestamp>1245339960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you take a cynical tone, just about any job can be made to sound worthless. But any job properly done is about service.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you take a cynical tone , just about any job can be made to sound worthless .
But any job properly done is about service .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you take a cynical tone, just about any job can be made to sound worthless.
But any job properly done is about service.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373335</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28375049</id>
	<title>Re:School is for people who can't read</title>
	<author>LordActon</author>
	<datestamp>1245344160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>If you want to learn about databases, install mysql with about ten clicks, and read the mysql documention. It's not a puzzle, it's just a process.</i>

</p><p>That's terrible advice.  Relational databases are neither puzzle nor process, they're math and logic.  Unlike practically anything else in software, they have a scientific underpinning.  <i>Learn the theory.</i>  Then apply it.

</p><p>If you get a copy of MySQL or Microsoft Access and putz with it, You'll sooner or later find your way around, sure enough.  But what will you know?  How to use version Y of product X.  Great.  Not only will your knowledge be obsolete in a year, but it's inapplicable everything else.  And you'll be whistling in the dark, because you'll know <i>how</i> but not <i>why</i>.

</p><p> <i>A man that knows how to do something will always have a job.  The man who knows why will always be his boss.</i> </p><p>So.  Start with Chris Date's introduction to databases.  Just read it.  Then get yourself some software and a problem to solve.  Don't make something up; find a friend or nonprofit or a small business somewhere, someone you know or that a friend knows, who needs something solved.  Ideally it's a report or other batch process, not an interactive data-entry system, because that simplifies your work and lets you focus on the data aspect.

</p><p>Attack the data end first, carefully, applying what you learned. Diagram your logical model and explain it to the user.  (I find people can understand E-R diagrams and normalization well enough to facilitate discussion.  Sometimes there are "too many tables", but they usually accept <i>when it needs that, it looks it up there</i>.)  Normalize until you're sure you've got it right.  That's the "process" that matters.

</p><p>By the time you're done &mdash; before you're done, really &mdash; you'll have learned more about database design and application development than most people do in college.  You'll actually know something about Relational theory and normalization (not the same thing).  And you'll have a reference for your next job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you want to learn about databases , install mysql with about ten clicks , and read the mysql documention .
It 's not a puzzle , it 's just a process .
That 's terrible advice .
Relational databases are neither puzzle nor process , they 're math and logic .
Unlike practically anything else in software , they have a scientific underpinning .
Learn the theory .
Then apply it .
If you get a copy of MySQL or Microsoft Access and putz with it , You 'll sooner or later find your way around , sure enough .
But what will you know ?
How to use version Y of product X. Great. Not only will your knowledge be obsolete in a year , but it 's inapplicable everything else .
And you 'll be whistling in the dark , because you 'll know how but not why .
A man that knows how to do something will always have a job .
The man who knows why will always be his boss .
So. Start with Chris Date 's introduction to databases .
Just read it .
Then get yourself some software and a problem to solve .
Do n't make something up ; find a friend or nonprofit or a small business somewhere , someone you know or that a friend knows , who needs something solved .
Ideally it 's a report or other batch process , not an interactive data-entry system , because that simplifies your work and lets you focus on the data aspect .
Attack the data end first , carefully , applying what you learned .
Diagram your logical model and explain it to the user .
( I find people can understand E-R diagrams and normalization well enough to facilitate discussion .
Sometimes there are " too many tables " , but they usually accept when it needs that , it looks it up there .
) Normalize until you 're sure you 've got it right .
That 's the " process " that matters .
By the time you 're done    before you 're done , really    you 'll have learned more about database design and application development than most people do in college .
You 'll actually know something about Relational theory and normalization ( not the same thing ) .
And you 'll have a reference for your next job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> If you want to learn about databases, install mysql with about ten clicks, and read the mysql documention.
It's not a puzzle, it's just a process.
That's terrible advice.
Relational databases are neither puzzle nor process, they're math and logic.
Unlike practically anything else in software, they have a scientific underpinning.
Learn the theory.
Then apply it.
If you get a copy of MySQL or Microsoft Access and putz with it, You'll sooner or later find your way around, sure enough.
But what will you know?
How to use version Y of product X.  Great.  Not only will your knowledge be obsolete in a year, but it's inapplicable everything else.
And you'll be whistling in the dark, because you'll know how but not why.
A man that knows how to do something will always have a job.
The man who knows why will always be his boss.
So.  Start with Chris Date's introduction to databases.
Just read it.
Then get yourself some software and a problem to solve.
Don't make something up; find a friend or nonprofit or a small business somewhere, someone you know or that a friend knows, who needs something solved.
Ideally it's a report or other batch process, not an interactive data-entry system, because that simplifies your work and lets you focus on the data aspect.
Attack the data end first, carefully, applying what you learned.
Diagram your logical model and explain it to the user.
(I find people can understand E-R diagrams and normalization well enough to facilitate discussion.
Sometimes there are "too many tables", but they usually accept when it needs that, it looks it up there.
)  Normalize until you're sure you've got it right.
That's the "process" that matters.
By the time you're done — before you're done, really — you'll have learned more about database design and application development than most people do in college.
You'll actually know something about Relational theory and normalization (not the same thing).
And you'll have a reference for your next job.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369783</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369891</id>
	<title>Figure out what you want then go for it</title>
	<author>al0ha</author>
	<datestamp>1245262320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you have the brains and the talent, anything is possible in IT; as long as you really enjoy it.
<br>
<br>
In my opinion which is based on prospective employee interviewing experiences, anything below a PhD in technology doesn't mean much.  The real question you should be asking yourself is, "Are you self-motivated, creative and talented?  Are you able to solve unique problems on your own?  Do you need someone to hold your hand?"
<br>
<br>
If the answer to the first two are yes and the second no; why waste your money?  Personally I have a HS education and have had several great paying jobs in IT.  Since I didn't spend a crapload to get a degree, I am way ahead of my counterparts that did.  How did I do it?  Well I discovered I had an aptitude for coding and more importantly problem solving and then I worked my ass off for a number of years. I just ate it up, couldn't get enough, HTML, DHTML, then Perl, C, Java, Shell, etc.
<br>
<br>
I padded my self education with some formal education in Unix and C programming at the university level, and even more importantly, I found a brilliant person who was able to serve as a mentor of sorts.
<br>
I am not saying my way is the right way for you or anyone; but it was for me and so I thought I'd share it.  So good luck in whatever you choose!</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you have the brains and the talent , anything is possible in IT ; as long as you really enjoy it .
In my opinion which is based on prospective employee interviewing experiences , anything below a PhD in technology does n't mean much .
The real question you should be asking yourself is , " Are you self-motivated , creative and talented ?
Are you able to solve unique problems on your own ?
Do you need someone to hold your hand ?
" If the answer to the first two are yes and the second no ; why waste your money ?
Personally I have a HS education and have had several great paying jobs in IT .
Since I did n't spend a crapload to get a degree , I am way ahead of my counterparts that did .
How did I do it ?
Well I discovered I had an aptitude for coding and more importantly problem solving and then I worked my ass off for a number of years .
I just ate it up , could n't get enough , HTML , DHTML , then Perl , C , Java , Shell , etc .
I padded my self education with some formal education in Unix and C programming at the university level , and even more importantly , I found a brilliant person who was able to serve as a mentor of sorts .
I am not saying my way is the right way for you or anyone ; but it was for me and so I thought I 'd share it .
So good luck in whatever you choose !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you have the brains and the talent, anything is possible in IT; as long as you really enjoy it.
In my opinion which is based on prospective employee interviewing experiences, anything below a PhD in technology doesn't mean much.
The real question you should be asking yourself is, "Are you self-motivated, creative and talented?
Are you able to solve unique problems on your own?
Do you need someone to hold your hand?
"


If the answer to the first two are yes and the second no; why waste your money?
Personally I have a HS education and have had several great paying jobs in IT.
Since I didn't spend a crapload to get a degree, I am way ahead of my counterparts that did.
How did I do it?
Well I discovered I had an aptitude for coding and more importantly problem solving and then I worked my ass off for a number of years.
I just ate it up, couldn't get enough, HTML, DHTML, then Perl, C, Java, Shell, etc.
I padded my self education with some formal education in Unix and C programming at the university level, and even more importantly, I found a brilliant person who was able to serve as a mentor of sorts.
I am not saying my way is the right way for you or anyone; but it was for me and so I thought I'd share it.
So good luck in whatever you choose!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374935</id>
	<title>Advancement.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245343680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was in a similar position whereas noone wanted to hire me because I had no formal education, but I had several years experience.  With working full time, and paying bills, I could not afford college either.  I chose the military, specifically the Navy.  I was able to work a full time job, AND go to school, and the best part of it all, was that I got paid in the process.  I got out after a 4 year tour, and two weeks later I landed a job in IT doing server support instead of helpdesk.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was in a similar position whereas noone wanted to hire me because I had no formal education , but I had several years experience .
With working full time , and paying bills , I could not afford college either .
I chose the military , specifically the Navy .
I was able to work a full time job , AND go to school , and the best part of it all , was that I got paid in the process .
I got out after a 4 year tour , and two weeks later I landed a job in IT doing server support instead of helpdesk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was in a similar position whereas noone wanted to hire me because I had no formal education, but I had several years experience.
With working full time, and paying bills, I could not afford college either.
I chose the military, specifically the Navy.
I was able to work a full time job, AND go to school, and the best part of it all, was that I got paid in the process.
I got out after a 4 year tour, and two weeks later I landed a job in IT doing server support instead of helpdesk.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369823</id>
	<title>Re:Ugh</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245261480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>sorry once you're past 25, they want nothing to do with you. undergrad at 25+ is a lonely and tiresome route.  even stuff like group projects is tough because 18yos still think of themselves as kids and don't want to work with an 'adult'.  maybe just getting certs is a better idea.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>sorry once you 're past 25 , they want nothing to do with you .
undergrad at 25 + is a lonely and tiresome route .
even stuff like group projects is tough because 18yos still think of themselves as kids and do n't want to work with an 'adult' .
maybe just getting certs is a better idea .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>sorry once you're past 25, they want nothing to do with you.
undergrad at 25+ is a lonely and tiresome route.
even stuff like group projects is tough because 18yos still think of themselves as kids and don't want to work with an 'adult'.
maybe just getting certs is a better idea.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369673</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374381</id>
	<title>Certifications maybe</title>
	<author>theyulman</author>
	<datestamp>1245341460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>One quick way to get out of Help Desk role is certification.
<br>
BUT! Choose it wisely, CCNA is worth nothing in the market right now, simply because there are too many.
<br>
CCSA and CCSE for example (CheckPoint certification) seems hot right now for two reasons.
<br>
1- Security is still the fastest growing expenses in IT<br>
2- CheckPoint tend to be purchased by large corporation, such as banks and certified personnel is hard to find for CheckPoint customers</htmltext>
<tokenext>One quick way to get out of Help Desk role is certification .
BUT ! Choose it wisely , CCNA is worth nothing in the market right now , simply because there are too many .
CCSA and CCSE for example ( CheckPoint certification ) seems hot right now for two reasons .
1- Security is still the fastest growing expenses in IT 2- CheckPoint tend to be purchased by large corporation , such as banks and certified personnel is hard to find for CheckPoint customers</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One quick way to get out of Help Desk role is certification.
BUT! Choose it wisely, CCNA is worth nothing in the market right now, simply because there are too many.
CCSA and CCSE for example (CheckPoint certification) seems hot right now for two reasons.
1- Security is still the fastest growing expenses in IT
2- CheckPoint tend to be purchased by large corporation, such as banks and certified personnel is hard to find for CheckPoint customers</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372775</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245334320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I would go as far as to say that the folks we have here on the IT helpdesk are very tech un-savvy. They follow simple flowcharts to get resolutions and do very little actual IT work.</p> </div><p>That is what a help desk agent is supposed to do they do not have SLA's etc.</p><p>People are confusing a Help Desk and a Service Desk that has SLA's and performance and a set goal of First Level Solves. Help Desk is take call and route. Service Desk is take call troubleshoot to best of ability and then route with all troubleshooting done.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would go as far as to say that the folks we have here on the IT helpdesk are very tech un-savvy .
They follow simple flowcharts to get resolutions and do very little actual IT work .
That is what a help desk agent is supposed to do they do not have SLA 's etc.People are confusing a Help Desk and a Service Desk that has SLA 's and performance and a set goal of First Level Solves .
Help Desk is take call and route .
Service Desk is take call troubleshoot to best of ability and then route with all troubleshooting done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would go as far as to say that the folks we have here on the IT helpdesk are very tech un-savvy.
They follow simple flowcharts to get resolutions and do very little actual IT work.
That is what a help desk agent is supposed to do they do not have SLA's etc.People are confusing a Help Desk and a Service Desk that has SLA's and performance and a set goal of First Level Solves.
Help Desk is take call and route.
Service Desk is take call troubleshoot to best of ability and then route with all troubleshooting done.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369809</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372907</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>jollyreaper</author>
	<datestamp>1245334980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Um. If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook is your job. Your work isn't being interrupted every five minutes, but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.</p><p>IT is a support function, deal with it or find a different career field.</p></div><p>All depends on how the department is structured. In my situation, we've got a dedicated man-on-the-phone whose main job is to run around and do the every five minute interruption thing. The sysadmin is his backup but the whole point is he's supposed to be able to work on complicated stuff without getting his train of thought broken every time it gets on track. This is only sane. I'm more of a specialist helping userland their systems but am also available for routine helpdesk stuff when the need arises.</p><p>Any organization with a helpdesk bigger than one person should have a structure where one tech is available for putting out fires while the other tech can concentrate on the stuff that requires concentration.</p><p>IT is similar to accounting. In a small shop, one accountant does everything, every hat in the department sits on one head. Same with the one IT guy. As a business grows, the one accountant guy starts getting staff and offloading the work. This is the AP and AR person. Ok, now they're bigger. AR is one position, AP another. Wow, we're even bigger now. We have three or four people in AR now. And so it goes with IT. Grow big enough, you have staffers specializing in just one particular system. Here's the DBA, here's the Exchange admin, less hats to wear but they're very complicated hats.</p><p>What you're probably running into is a company whose need is growing beyond what they've staffed for but see no need to adjust the headcount to reflect that.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Um .
If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook is your job .
Your work is n't being interrupted every five minutes , but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.IT is a support function , deal with it or find a different career field.All depends on how the department is structured .
In my situation , we 've got a dedicated man-on-the-phone whose main job is to run around and do the every five minute interruption thing .
The sysadmin is his backup but the whole point is he 's supposed to be able to work on complicated stuff without getting his train of thought broken every time it gets on track .
This is only sane .
I 'm more of a specialist helping userland their systems but am also available for routine helpdesk stuff when the need arises.Any organization with a helpdesk bigger than one person should have a structure where one tech is available for putting out fires while the other tech can concentrate on the stuff that requires concentration.IT is similar to accounting .
In a small shop , one accountant does everything , every hat in the department sits on one head .
Same with the one IT guy .
As a business grows , the one accountant guy starts getting staff and offloading the work .
This is the AP and AR person .
Ok , now they 're bigger .
AR is one position , AP another .
Wow , we 're even bigger now .
We have three or four people in AR now .
And so it goes with IT .
Grow big enough , you have staffers specializing in just one particular system .
Here 's the DBA , here 's the Exchange admin , less hats to wear but they 're very complicated hats.What you 're probably running into is a company whose need is growing beyond what they 've staffed for but see no need to adjust the headcount to reflect that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Um.
If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook is your job.
Your work isn't being interrupted every five minutes, but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.IT is a support function, deal with it or find a different career field.All depends on how the department is structured.
In my situation, we've got a dedicated man-on-the-phone whose main job is to run around and do the every five minute interruption thing.
The sysadmin is his backup but the whole point is he's supposed to be able to work on complicated stuff without getting his train of thought broken every time it gets on track.
This is only sane.
I'm more of a specialist helping userland their systems but am also available for routine helpdesk stuff when the need arises.Any organization with a helpdesk bigger than one person should have a structure where one tech is available for putting out fires while the other tech can concentrate on the stuff that requires concentration.IT is similar to accounting.
In a small shop, one accountant does everything, every hat in the department sits on one head.
Same with the one IT guy.
As a business grows, the one accountant guy starts getting staff and offloading the work.
This is the AP and AR person.
Ok, now they're bigger.
AR is one position, AP another.
Wow, we're even bigger now.
We have three or four people in AR now.
And so it goes with IT.
Grow big enough, you have staffers specializing in just one particular system.
Here's the DBA, here's the Exchange admin, less hats to wear but they're very complicated hats.What you're probably running into is a company whose need is growing beyond what they've staffed for but see no need to adjust the headcount to reflect that.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370091</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Opportunist</author>
	<datestamp>1245264840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Depends on your job.</p><p>More and more companies don't employ a full time helpdesk. Usually you're expected to do something "on the side", be it installations or even making strategic decisions. The smaller the company, the higher the chance that you won't be a full time computer monkey.</p><p>Now, as everyone who ever wrote a line of code will know, nothing kills your concentration more than a phone call. Well, except maybe your computer catching fire.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Depends on your job.More and more companies do n't employ a full time helpdesk .
Usually you 're expected to do something " on the side " , be it installations or even making strategic decisions .
The smaller the company , the higher the chance that you wo n't be a full time computer monkey.Now , as everyone who ever wrote a line of code will know , nothing kills your concentration more than a phone call .
Well , except maybe your computer catching fire .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Depends on your job.More and more companies don't employ a full time helpdesk.
Usually you're expected to do something "on the side", be it installations or even making strategic decisions.
The smaller the company, the higher the chance that you won't be a full time computer monkey.Now, as everyone who ever wrote a line of code will know, nothing kills your concentration more than a phone call.
Well, except maybe your computer catching fire.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372703</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Nutsquasher</author>
	<datestamp>1245333960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thanks for posting, that was one of the best things I've ever read on Slashdot.  It's all so very very true.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thanks for posting , that was one of the best things I 've ever read on Slashdot .
It 's all so very very true .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thanks for posting, that was one of the best things I've ever read on Slashdot.
It's all so very very true.
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371703</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Kashgarinn</author>
	<datestamp>1245325500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You forgot to start this with:<br>&gt;If I could offer you only one tip for the future, sunscreen would be it. The long term benefits of sunscreen have been proved by scientists whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experience</p><p>and end it with:<br>&gt;But trust me on the sunscreen...</p><p>Otherwise.. a nice post<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;P</p><p>I'm in the same helpdesk hell situation.. it's been a real turnoff for advancing further into IT and I'm doing evening classes in something completely different (whether something comes out of it, no idea).  It is a dull, but safe job.. you're not going to get fired if you can stick out the first couple of months, and it is quite regular so you do have time for other interests.  It's a wonderful platform for taking the next step, but it's a horrible career choice as it's soul-suckingly dull, repetitive and the bureaucracy... I can't go on without increasing stress levels, so I wont.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You forgot to start this with : &gt; If I could offer you only one tip for the future , sunscreen would be it .
The long term benefits of sunscreen have been proved by scientists whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experienceand end it with : &gt; But trust me on the sunscreen...Otherwise.. a nice post ; PI 'm in the same helpdesk hell situation.. it 's been a real turnoff for advancing further into IT and I 'm doing evening classes in something completely different ( whether something comes out of it , no idea ) .
It is a dull , but safe job.. you 're not going to get fired if you can stick out the first couple of months , and it is quite regular so you do have time for other interests .
It 's a wonderful platform for taking the next step , but it 's a horrible career choice as it 's soul-suckingly dull , repetitive and the bureaucracy... I ca n't go on without increasing stress levels , so I wont .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You forgot to start this with:&gt;If I could offer you only one tip for the future, sunscreen would be it.
The long term benefits of sunscreen have been proved by scientists whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experienceand end it with:&gt;But trust me on the sunscreen...Otherwise.. a nice post ;PI'm in the same helpdesk hell situation.. it's been a real turnoff for advancing further into IT and I'm doing evening classes in something completely different (whether something comes out of it, no idea).
It is a dull, but safe job.. you're not going to get fired if you can stick out the first couple of months, and it is quite regular so you do have time for other interests.
It's a wonderful platform for taking the next step, but it's a horrible career choice as it's soul-suckingly dull, repetitive and the bureaucracy... I can't go on without increasing stress levels, so I wont.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370045</id>
	<title>Law Firms</title>
	<author>surfcow</author>
	<datestamp>1245264180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My two cents:</p><p>Worked for a law firm ten years ago.  IT, LAN manager, sys admin, help desk, information officer, palm engineer, etc.</p><p>Every one of the senior partners (there were 8) felt that he was my sole manager.  They all felt they knew more about IT than I did.  They routinely countered each other, sometimes just for spite.  Huge, puffy, bloated egos.  Lots of SHOUTING and panic'd staff - stress was so high that you could literally smell it.  Politics.  One told me to convert their 1.2 million WordPerfect legal documents to MS-Word and gave me two months and no budget.  They burned through IT people like lamp fuel.  The geek before me lasted a year as a stress junkie and got cancer.</p><p>Absolute hell job, TOXIC.  Quit after three weeks and good riddance.</p><p>I know, every business is different, etc, etc, but I have heard similar stories from other law firm sys admins.  These people eat their own.  Meet their families, I think you'll agree.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My two cents : Worked for a law firm ten years ago .
IT , LAN manager , sys admin , help desk , information officer , palm engineer , etc.Every one of the senior partners ( there were 8 ) felt that he was my sole manager .
They all felt they knew more about IT than I did .
They routinely countered each other , sometimes just for spite .
Huge , puffy , bloated egos .
Lots of SHOUTING and panic 'd staff - stress was so high that you could literally smell it .
Politics. One told me to convert their 1.2 million WordPerfect legal documents to MS-Word and gave me two months and no budget .
They burned through IT people like lamp fuel .
The geek before me lasted a year as a stress junkie and got cancer.Absolute hell job , TOXIC .
Quit after three weeks and good riddance.I know , every business is different , etc , etc , but I have heard similar stories from other law firm sys admins .
These people eat their own .
Meet their families , I think you 'll agree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My two cents:Worked for a law firm ten years ago.
IT, LAN manager, sys admin, help desk, information officer, palm engineer, etc.Every one of the senior partners (there were 8) felt that he was my sole manager.
They all felt they knew more about IT than I did.
They routinely countered each other, sometimes just for spite.
Huge, puffy, bloated egos.
Lots of SHOUTING and panic'd staff - stress was so high that you could literally smell it.
Politics.  One told me to convert their 1.2 million WordPerfect legal documents to MS-Word and gave me two months and no budget.
They burned through IT people like lamp fuel.
The geek before me lasted a year as a stress junkie and got cancer.Absolute hell job, TOXIC.
Quit after three weeks and good riddance.I know, every business is different, etc, etc, but I have heard similar stories from other law firm sys admins.
These people eat their own.
Meet their families, I think you'll agree.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370293</id>
	<title>Programming not only pays, but can be fulfilling</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245268080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>  I'd like to point out the programming route.  Compared to the mild torture of IT work I've seen described in this and other threads, I, and many others, find programming extremely fulfilling.  Specifically, I'm talking about large-scale development where performance and code quality matters and you can take pride in your work.  I think it was best described by Frederick Brooks (of Mythical Man Month fame) in his "The Joys of the Craft": http://momjian.us/main/favorites/doc/programming.html.  I might add it also pays well and I've found that companies are *always* looking for good programmers.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; As for specific advice: go to school so you can really learn your algorithms and data structures, not little soundbites from message boards and copies of Torvald's posts.  If you want to do low-ish level programming (which I highly recommend because, with most students graduating knowing little more than Java and Scheme, C/C++ and knowledge of how things work is a jewel), take a compiler class where you implement source to assembly for a toy language and an OS class that makes you write bits of a toy OS; understanding how these two things work and not feeling like they are deep magic is critical.  Thirdly, take a computer architecture class so you know why some things are fast and some things are slow.  And lastly, for goodness sakes, if you want to be a programmer, program all the frakkin' time so that eventually the syntax melts away and programming is like walking.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Cheers on taking action to improve your situation!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd like to point out the programming route .
Compared to the mild torture of IT work I 've seen described in this and other threads , I , and many others , find programming extremely fulfilling .
Specifically , I 'm talking about large-scale development where performance and code quality matters and you can take pride in your work .
I think it was best described by Frederick Brooks ( of Mythical Man Month fame ) in his " The Joys of the Craft " : http : //momjian.us/main/favorites/doc/programming.html .
I might add it also pays well and I 've found that companies are * always * looking for good programmers .
    As for specific advice : go to school so you can really learn your algorithms and data structures , not little soundbites from message boards and copies of Torvald 's posts .
If you want to do low-ish level programming ( which I highly recommend because , with most students graduating knowing little more than Java and Scheme , C/C + + and knowledge of how things work is a jewel ) , take a compiler class where you implement source to assembly for a toy language and an OS class that makes you write bits of a toy OS ; understanding how these two things work and not feeling like they are deep magic is critical .
Thirdly , take a computer architecture class so you know why some things are fast and some things are slow .
And lastly , for goodness sakes , if you want to be a programmer , program all the frakkin ' time so that eventually the syntax melts away and programming is like walking .
    Cheers on taking action to improve your situation !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>  I'd like to point out the programming route.
Compared to the mild torture of IT work I've seen described in this and other threads, I, and many others, find programming extremely fulfilling.
Specifically, I'm talking about large-scale development where performance and code quality matters and you can take pride in your work.
I think it was best described by Frederick Brooks (of Mythical Man Month fame) in his "The Joys of the Craft": http://momjian.us/main/favorites/doc/programming.html.
I might add it also pays well and I've found that companies are *always* looking for good programmers.
    As for specific advice: go to school so you can really learn your algorithms and data structures, not little soundbites from message boards and copies of Torvald's posts.
If you want to do low-ish level programming (which I highly recommend because, with most students graduating knowing little more than Java and Scheme, C/C++ and knowledge of how things work is a jewel), take a compiler class where you implement source to assembly for a toy language and an OS class that makes you write bits of a toy OS; understanding how these two things work and not feeling like they are deep magic is critical.
Thirdly, take a computer architecture class so you know why some things are fast and some things are slow.
And lastly, for goodness sakes, if you want to be a programmer, program all the frakkin' time so that eventually the syntax melts away and programming is like walking.
    Cheers on taking action to improve your situation!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372795</id>
	<title>Re:What degree do you have?</title>
	<author>DrgnDancer</author>
	<datestamp>1245334440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>like it or not, you got lucky.  Lots of companies won't let you by the HR screen without a BS/BA.  Ironically I have a degree in History, not CS, but between my experience, my minor in CS and my having gotten through a large chunk of a masters of CS I'm usually OK.  Even now 10 years into career though I've been told that my lack of a BSc probably hinders me slightly in shops with big HR hurdles.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>like it or not , you got lucky .
Lots of companies wo n't let you by the HR screen without a BS/BA .
Ironically I have a degree in History , not CS , but between my experience , my minor in CS and my having gotten through a large chunk of a masters of CS I 'm usually OK. Even now 10 years into career though I 've been told that my lack of a BSc probably hinders me slightly in shops with big HR hurdles .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>like it or not, you got lucky.
Lots of companies won't let you by the HR screen without a BS/BA.
Ironically I have a degree in History, not CS, but between my experience, my minor in CS and my having gotten through a large chunk of a masters of CS I'm usually OK.  Even now 10 years into career though I've been told that my lack of a BSc probably hinders me slightly in shops with big HR hurdles.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369913</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372975</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245335340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Get out of IT and become a Lawyer<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. at least they most likely will not ship that job out to cheap labour in another country that only follows a problem out line.  Most current brain dead exec when wanting to increase the bottom line and have no idea how to innovate they just cut.<br>Lets start outsourcing the overpaid exec positions, it does not take a college degree to just cut positions.  It takes a real leader to keep the positions and think in other ways to help the bottom line.</p><p>That's what we need more of..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Get out of IT and become a Lawyer .. at least they most likely will not ship that job out to cheap labour in another country that only follows a problem out line .
Most current brain dead exec when wanting to increase the bottom line and have no idea how to innovate they just cut.Lets start outsourcing the overpaid exec positions , it does not take a college degree to just cut positions .
It takes a real leader to keep the positions and think in other ways to help the bottom line.That 's what we need more of. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get out of IT and become a Lawyer .. at least they most likely will not ship that job out to cheap labour in another country that only follows a problem out line.
Most current brain dead exec when wanting to increase the bottom line and have no idea how to innovate they just cut.Lets start outsourcing the overpaid exec positions, it does not take a college degree to just cut positions.
It takes a real leader to keep the positions and think in other ways to help the bottom line.That's what we need more of..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370407</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Bill, Shooter of Bul</author>
	<datestamp>1245355800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Uhhmm... What job isn't about service?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Uhhmm... What job is n't about service ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Uhhmm... What job isn't about service?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28406355</id>
	<title>I feel your pain on the Helldesk</title>
	<author>Orion Blastar</author>
	<datestamp>1245506580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I used to work helpdesk and I worked many IT positions but mostly as a programmer.</p><p>If a college education is too expensive for you, consider a Community College part-time and earn certificates in areas you want to learn knowledge in you might be able to make a one or two year degree and then be able to work a better job than helpdesk and maybe be a web designer, entry level programmer, network administrator, or PC technician.</p><p>If you cannot afford the community college route then just get some books on the subject and study on your own time and use the software at home on your own time to learn with it. If you cannot afford books try going to your local libraries and finding books to check out for free (but mind the due-date, and remember you always can renew a book checkout by visiting the library and saying you want to renew the book).</p><p>Another cheap way is to search the Internet and find free eBooks and Wiki sites and forums on the technology you are trying to learn. But beware as some people are not always nice to noobs/newbies just trying to learn the technology and will try to scare you off. Look for how to better use search engines like Google to help you find new things.</p><p>If you cannot find an employer to hire you, try searching for some of the "freelance" web sites and offer your services on what you developed skills on to organizations and people in need of help. It might end up with job offers or getting your name out there. Put it on your resume that you are "Doing business as Yourname" where Yourname is your real name. You might need to save some of the contact info from freelance tasks for references when you look for a real job.</p><p>Good luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I used to work helpdesk and I worked many IT positions but mostly as a programmer.If a college education is too expensive for you , consider a Community College part-time and earn certificates in areas you want to learn knowledge in you might be able to make a one or two year degree and then be able to work a better job than helpdesk and maybe be a web designer , entry level programmer , network administrator , or PC technician.If you can not afford the community college route then just get some books on the subject and study on your own time and use the software at home on your own time to learn with it .
If you can not afford books try going to your local libraries and finding books to check out for free ( but mind the due-date , and remember you always can renew a book checkout by visiting the library and saying you want to renew the book ) .Another cheap way is to search the Internet and find free eBooks and Wiki sites and forums on the technology you are trying to learn .
But beware as some people are not always nice to noobs/newbies just trying to learn the technology and will try to scare you off .
Look for how to better use search engines like Google to help you find new things.If you can not find an employer to hire you , try searching for some of the " freelance " web sites and offer your services on what you developed skills on to organizations and people in need of help .
It might end up with job offers or getting your name out there .
Put it on your resume that you are " Doing business as Yourname " where Yourname is your real name .
You might need to save some of the contact info from freelance tasks for references when you look for a real job.Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used to work helpdesk and I worked many IT positions but mostly as a programmer.If a college education is too expensive for you, consider a Community College part-time and earn certificates in areas you want to learn knowledge in you might be able to make a one or two year degree and then be able to work a better job than helpdesk and maybe be a web designer, entry level programmer, network administrator, or PC technician.If you cannot afford the community college route then just get some books on the subject and study on your own time and use the software at home on your own time to learn with it.
If you cannot afford books try going to your local libraries and finding books to check out for free (but mind the due-date, and remember you always can renew a book checkout by visiting the library and saying you want to renew the book).Another cheap way is to search the Internet and find free eBooks and Wiki sites and forums on the technology you are trying to learn.
But beware as some people are not always nice to noobs/newbies just trying to learn the technology and will try to scare you off.
Look for how to better use search engines like Google to help you find new things.If you cannot find an employer to hire you, try searching for some of the "freelance" web sites and offer your services on what you developed skills on to organizations and people in need of help.
It might end up with job offers or getting your name out there.
Put it on your resume that you are "Doing business as Yourname" where Yourname is your real name.
You might need to save some of the contact info from freelance tasks for references when you look for a real job.Good luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370621</id>
	<title>Get involved with an open source project</title>
	<author>DeBaas</author>
	<datestamp>1245357420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You mentioned that you may want to dig into webdevelopment/databases. Why not get involved with an open source web content management system. I follow the development of <a href="http://www.wegbgui.org/" title="wegbgui.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.wegbgui.org/</a> [wegbgui.org] I have noticed quite a few times that people that start out just using it and later develop for it, don't just learn a lot, but often get hired later on to work on or with this. And if you learn that this not your cup of tea, you found that in your own time.</p><p>Other open source CMS projects may have the same effect. In my view though, WebGUI has high quality code. There is more of a learning curve before you get code accepted , but you will also learn much more. Not just about software development, but also if software development is really something for you</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You mentioned that you may want to dig into webdevelopment/databases .
Why not get involved with an open source web content management system .
I follow the development of http : //www.wegbgui.org/ [ wegbgui.org ] I have noticed quite a few times that people that start out just using it and later develop for it , do n't just learn a lot , but often get hired later on to work on or with this .
And if you learn that this not your cup of tea , you found that in your own time.Other open source CMS projects may have the same effect .
In my view though , WebGUI has high quality code .
There is more of a learning curve before you get code accepted , but you will also learn much more .
Not just about software development , but also if software development is really something for you</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You mentioned that you may want to dig into webdevelopment/databases.
Why not get involved with an open source web content management system.
I follow the development of http://www.wegbgui.org/ [wegbgui.org] I have noticed quite a few times that people that start out just using it and later develop for it, don't just learn a lot, but often get hired later on to work on or with this.
And if you learn that this not your cup of tea, you found that in your own time.Other open source CMS projects may have the same effect.
In my view though, WebGUI has high quality code.
There is more of a learning curve before you get code accepted , but you will also learn much more.
Not just about software development, but also if software development is really something for you</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</id>
	<title>That is your job.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245259620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"<i> I'd like to remain in IT, but in less of a front-line role where I can actually get some work done without being interrupted every five minutes by a jamming printer or frozen instance of Outlook.</i>"</p><p>Um.  If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook <i>is</i> your job.  Your work isn't being interrupted every five minutes, but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.</p><p>IT is a support function, deal with it or find a different career field.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" I 'd like to remain in IT , but in less of a front-line role where I can actually get some work done without being interrupted every five minutes by a jamming printer or frozen instance of Outlook. " Um .
If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook is your job .
Your work is n't being interrupted every five minutes , but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.IT is a support function , deal with it or find a different career field .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>" I'd like to remain in IT, but in less of a front-line role where I can actually get some work done without being interrupted every five minutes by a jamming printer or frozen instance of Outlook."Um.
If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook is your job.
Your work isn't being interrupted every five minutes, but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.IT is a support function, deal with it or find a different career field.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369593</id>
	<title>hmmm...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245259440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You Sir, have some serious issues...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You Sir , have some serious issues.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You Sir, have some serious issues...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369685</id>
	<title>Funny Helldesk story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245260160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Way back in the day, I worked at Creative Labs tech support, and those of us in higher positions were made to sit on a Helpdesk, consisting of 4 stations.  When an agent would get stumped, they'd call the helpdesk and get one of us at random.  Now, some of the folks who had to sit on this thing were not the sharpest tools in the shed.  So one day, to screw with a particularly stupid self important idiot, I sat next to him, just up the hunt group chain, so that if my phone was busy or didn't answer the call would go to him.</p><p>So I turned my phone down to almost no ring volume, and every time my phone would ring, I'd wait til the 3rd ring, point over to his phone, and say "Your phone will ring... now".  The dumbass got mad because he couldn't figure out how I was doing it for over an hour.</p><p>I did of course, get a "stern" talking to afterward, BUT, the supervisor was doing his best to not laugh his ass off as he was telling me to please not do it again.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Way back in the day , I worked at Creative Labs tech support , and those of us in higher positions were made to sit on a Helpdesk , consisting of 4 stations .
When an agent would get stumped , they 'd call the helpdesk and get one of us at random .
Now , some of the folks who had to sit on this thing were not the sharpest tools in the shed .
So one day , to screw with a particularly stupid self important idiot , I sat next to him , just up the hunt group chain , so that if my phone was busy or did n't answer the call would go to him.So I turned my phone down to almost no ring volume , and every time my phone would ring , I 'd wait til the 3rd ring , point over to his phone , and say " Your phone will ring... now " . The dumbass got mad because he could n't figure out how I was doing it for over an hour.I did of course , get a " stern " talking to afterward , BUT , the supervisor was doing his best to not laugh his ass off as he was telling me to please not do it again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Way back in the day, I worked at Creative Labs tech support, and those of us in higher positions were made to sit on a Helpdesk, consisting of 4 stations.
When an agent would get stumped, they'd call the helpdesk and get one of us at random.
Now, some of the folks who had to sit on this thing were not the sharpest tools in the shed.
So one day, to screw with a particularly stupid self important idiot, I sat next to him, just up the hunt group chain, so that if my phone was busy or didn't answer the call would go to him.So I turned my phone down to almost no ring volume, and every time my phone would ring, I'd wait til the 3rd ring, point over to his phone, and say "Your phone will ring... now".  The dumbass got mad because he couldn't figure out how I was doing it for over an hour.I did of course, get a "stern" talking to afterward, BUT, the supervisor was doing his best to not laugh his ass off as he was telling me to please not do it again.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371799</id>
	<title>Re:Run For Your Life. Now.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245326520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Parent raises an exceptionally good point. I'm not sure how it is in the UK, but here in the USA we have master plumbers moaning about the fact that they cannot hire an idiot apprentice kid under them<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... who in 3 years of training will set themselves up for a realistic shot of $100,000/year salary.<p>This figure, by the way, is what I hope to earn after TEN+ YEARS of formal post-secondary education. IF the academic market can come back together again. And if I'm employable.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Parent raises an exceptionally good point .
I 'm not sure how it is in the UK , but here in the USA we have master plumbers moaning about the fact that they can not hire an idiot apprentice kid under them ... who in 3 years of training will set themselves up for a realistic shot of $ 100,000/year salary.This figure , by the way , is what I hope to earn after TEN + YEARS of formal post-secondary education .
IF the academic market can come back together again .
And if I 'm employable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Parent raises an exceptionally good point.
I'm not sure how it is in the UK, but here in the USA we have master plumbers moaning about the fact that they cannot hire an idiot apprentice kid under them ... who in 3 years of training will set themselves up for a realistic shot of $100,000/year salary.This figure, by the way, is what I hope to earn after TEN+ YEARS of formal post-secondary education.
IF the academic market can come back together again.
And if I'm employable.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369647</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373439</id>
	<title>Go programmer</title>
	<author>revjtanton</author>
	<datestamp>1245337440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>To get into a programmer position isn't that hard and you're not on the front lines.  Try to find a PL/SQL programmer position and you can advance into a DBA or engineer or of-the-such position from there w/out the Masters.  Thats what I'm doing and its working out well so far<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)  Programmer pays more than help desk too!</htmltext>
<tokenext>To get into a programmer position is n't that hard and you 're not on the front lines .
Try to find a PL/SQL programmer position and you can advance into a DBA or engineer or of-the-such position from there w/out the Masters .
Thats what I 'm doing and its working out well so far : ) Programmer pays more than help desk too !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To get into a programmer position isn't that hard and you're not on the front lines.
Try to find a PL/SQL programmer position and you can advance into a DBA or engineer or of-the-such position from there w/out the Masters.
Thats what I'm doing and its working out well so far :)  Programmer pays more than help desk too!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370395</id>
	<title>Re:Fuck You</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245355740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The thing is, the submitter wasn't soliciting opinions from disgruntled lusers. His question was clearly addressed to those who are "where he's supposed to be." Like it or not, that helpdesk is nothing but a stepping stone, and you should be grateful for whatever little help you do end up getting. Nobody gives a fuck about your cellphone, or your computer problems, or your career advice. Nobody gives a fuck whether you give a fuck. And nobody gives a fuck about your "excellent karma"- except me. See, I was the person who modded you troll, and I was the person who bookmarked your user page, and I am the person who's going systematically mod down your posts, regardless of merit. Have a nice day, asshole ^\_^</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The thing is , the submitter was n't soliciting opinions from disgruntled lusers .
His question was clearly addressed to those who are " where he 's supposed to be .
" Like it or not , that helpdesk is nothing but a stepping stone , and you should be grateful for whatever little help you do end up getting .
Nobody gives a fuck about your cellphone , or your computer problems , or your career advice .
Nobody gives a fuck whether you give a fuck .
And nobody gives a fuck about your " excellent karma " - except me .
See , I was the person who modded you troll , and I was the person who bookmarked your user page , and I am the person who 's going systematically mod down your posts , regardless of merit .
Have a nice day , asshole ^ \ _ ^</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The thing is, the submitter wasn't soliciting opinions from disgruntled lusers.
His question was clearly addressed to those who are "where he's supposed to be.
" Like it or not, that helpdesk is nothing but a stepping stone, and you should be grateful for whatever little help you do end up getting.
Nobody gives a fuck about your cellphone, or your computer problems, or your career advice.
Nobody gives a fuck whether you give a fuck.
And nobody gives a fuck about your "excellent karma"- except me.
See, I was the person who modded you troll, and I was the person who bookmarked your user page, and I am the person who's going systematically mod down your posts, regardless of merit.
Have a nice day, asshole ^\_^</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369855</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374967</id>
	<title>Go electrician, not plumber!</title>
	<author>Medievalist</author>
	<datestamp>1245343860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Submitter is in the UK, not the US.  <i>Electrical work</i> is the way to go, not plumbing.</p><p>UK mains are high enough voltage to be mildly dangerous, and have inordinately high safety requirements (fuse in every outlet, for example).  Plus, there is a cultural resistance to DIY electrical work, it generally just "isn't done".  So, most people call the expert and pay him well.</p><p>English plumbing is famous world-wide for its baroque design and lack of reliable function.  When I visit the UK I prefer to stay in places that advertise "American style plumbing" - and yes, they do put that in advertisements.  Problems are often in the drains, so you would frequently be up to your elbows in the human waste stream.  Yet (by necessity, perhaps) there is less cultural resistance to DIY plumbing, and with the introduction of glued plastic pipe it's become relatively easy for the homeowner, which drives wages down for plumbers at the same time that it cuts down on the service business opportunities.</p><p>Don't bother with fiber, it's unlikely to be as popular as copper in your lifetime.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Submitter is in the UK , not the US .
Electrical work is the way to go , not plumbing.UK mains are high enough voltage to be mildly dangerous , and have inordinately high safety requirements ( fuse in every outlet , for example ) .
Plus , there is a cultural resistance to DIY electrical work , it generally just " is n't done " .
So , most people call the expert and pay him well.English plumbing is famous world-wide for its baroque design and lack of reliable function .
When I visit the UK I prefer to stay in places that advertise " American style plumbing " - and yes , they do put that in advertisements .
Problems are often in the drains , so you would frequently be up to your elbows in the human waste stream .
Yet ( by necessity , perhaps ) there is less cultural resistance to DIY plumbing , and with the introduction of glued plastic pipe it 's become relatively easy for the homeowner , which drives wages down for plumbers at the same time that it cuts down on the service business opportunities.Do n't bother with fiber , it 's unlikely to be as popular as copper in your lifetime .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Submitter is in the UK, not the US.
Electrical work is the way to go, not plumbing.UK mains are high enough voltage to be mildly dangerous, and have inordinately high safety requirements (fuse in every outlet, for example).
Plus, there is a cultural resistance to DIY electrical work, it generally just "isn't done".
So, most people call the expert and pay him well.English plumbing is famous world-wide for its baroque design and lack of reliable function.
When I visit the UK I prefer to stay in places that advertise "American style plumbing" - and yes, they do put that in advertisements.
Problems are often in the drains, so you would frequently be up to your elbows in the human waste stream.
Yet (by necessity, perhaps) there is less cultural resistance to DIY plumbing, and with the introduction of glued plastic pipe it's become relatively easy for the homeowner, which drives wages down for plumbers at the same time that it cuts down on the service business opportunities.Don't bother with fiber, it's unlikely to be as popular as copper in your lifetime.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369647</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370327</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Mishotaki</author>
	<datestamp>1245268500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>thanks for pointing out that article in the NYtimes, it was a great read</htmltext>
<tokenext>thanks for pointing out that article in the NYtimes , it was a great read</tokentext>
<sentencetext>thanks for pointing out that article in the NYtimes, it was a great read</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28376317</id>
	<title>I was in your situation once</title>
	<author>fiannaFailMan</author>
	<datestamp>1245349020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was a victim of being thrown in at the deep end and didn't last long in my phone support role - thankfully.  If the economy is weak and you have a bit of money to tide you over for a year, by all means go into full time education, but to be honest it might be better to stick at this job and teach yourself what you can in your own time.  I'm a self taught man.  I have no formal training in web development, but I'm a web developer now. My degree was in Manufacturing Engineering, and that has always been an asset when it comes to interviews because it helps me to stand out from all the Computer Science degree holders.  The fact that I taught myself is also an asset, since in this dynamic world an insightful employer will be more impressed by your ability to pick up new skills rather than the specific skills you have now, as long as you know enough to get the job done to some extent at first you'll be fine.  Where to get experience? The beauty of web dev is that you can work as a freelancer, doing pro-bono work for non profit organisations to begin with just to get yourself up to speed and build up a portfolio.</p><p>There's nothing as soul destroying as sitting at the bottom of the IT ladder knowing that there are people only one rung above you that have a much better life.  But you can haul yourself up there.</p><p>Good luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was a victim of being thrown in at the deep end and did n't last long in my phone support role - thankfully .
If the economy is weak and you have a bit of money to tide you over for a year , by all means go into full time education , but to be honest it might be better to stick at this job and teach yourself what you can in your own time .
I 'm a self taught man .
I have no formal training in web development , but I 'm a web developer now .
My degree was in Manufacturing Engineering , and that has always been an asset when it comes to interviews because it helps me to stand out from all the Computer Science degree holders .
The fact that I taught myself is also an asset , since in this dynamic world an insightful employer will be more impressed by your ability to pick up new skills rather than the specific skills you have now , as long as you know enough to get the job done to some extent at first you 'll be fine .
Where to get experience ?
The beauty of web dev is that you can work as a freelancer , doing pro-bono work for non profit organisations to begin with just to get yourself up to speed and build up a portfolio.There 's nothing as soul destroying as sitting at the bottom of the IT ladder knowing that there are people only one rung above you that have a much better life .
But you can haul yourself up there.Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was a victim of being thrown in at the deep end and didn't last long in my phone support role - thankfully.
If the economy is weak and you have a bit of money to tide you over for a year, by all means go into full time education, but to be honest it might be better to stick at this job and teach yourself what you can in your own time.
I'm a self taught man.
I have no formal training in web development, but I'm a web developer now.
My degree was in Manufacturing Engineering, and that has always been an asset when it comes to interviews because it helps me to stand out from all the Computer Science degree holders.
The fact that I taught myself is also an asset, since in this dynamic world an insightful employer will be more impressed by your ability to pick up new skills rather than the specific skills you have now, as long as you know enough to get the job done to some extent at first you'll be fine.
Where to get experience?
The beauty of web dev is that you can work as a freelancer, doing pro-bono work for non profit organisations to begin with just to get yourself up to speed and build up a portfolio.There's nothing as soul destroying as sitting at the bottom of the IT ladder knowing that there are people only one rung above you that have a much better life.
But you can haul yourself up there.Good luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374013</id>
	<title>Re:Learn a UNIX</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245339960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree, learn LINUX. The Microsoft route is great for job security but unless the company you work for has a need to have warm bodies onsite, the jobs can easily be outsourced.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree , learn LINUX .
The Microsoft route is great for job security but unless the company you work for has a need to have warm bodies onsite , the jobs can easily be outsourced .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree, learn LINUX.
The Microsoft route is great for job security but unless the company you work for has a need to have warm bodies onsite, the jobs can easily be outsourced.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369667</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372813</id>
	<title>Learn UNIX</title>
	<author>rhaacke</author>
	<datestamp>1245334500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are absolutely no desktop issues to deal with and the servers and applications seldom crash/lock up. You make more money too.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are absolutely no desktop issues to deal with and the servers and applications seldom crash/lock up .
You make more money too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are absolutely no desktop issues to deal with and the servers and applications seldom crash/lock up.
You make more money too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371885</id>
	<title>Become an image designer</title>
	<author>spywhere</author>
	<datestamp>1245327600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You are in an excellent position to observe, understand, and theorize about the configuration of the company's Windows image. There are Windows 7 deployments in your future... would you rather sit at the desk trying to support the end users, or take part in the image design to help <b>prevent</b> problems?<br> <br>Grab everything you can get about Windows 7 installation and deployment. Throw together a few test mules using the release candidate, and gain as much hands-on experience as possible installing and pre-configuring desktops to better meet the needs of your employer. (If possible, gather the equipment and <b>set up your lab at the Help Desk:</b> this will attract attention to your project, and to your determination to get out ahead of the curve with Win7). Sign up for Microsoft training on this, and seek reimbursement: paying for your training will make your bosses more likely to seek benefit from it. (Pay for the training before you seek reimbursement, and attend it even if you don't get the money from your employer. This will convey your determination to advance from a reactive posture [Help Desk] to proactivity [preventing problems]).<br> <br>I was lead tech on a help desk for a year. The consulting firm that put me there tried to sell the client on an XP image. The client agreed, on the condition that <b>I design the image.</b> Next thing I knew, I was sought after as an image design Subject Matter Expert...</htmltext>
<tokenext>You are in an excellent position to observe , understand , and theorize about the configuration of the company 's Windows image .
There are Windows 7 deployments in your future... would you rather sit at the desk trying to support the end users , or take part in the image design to help prevent problems ?
Grab everything you can get about Windows 7 installation and deployment .
Throw together a few test mules using the release candidate , and gain as much hands-on experience as possible installing and pre-configuring desktops to better meet the needs of your employer .
( If possible , gather the equipment and set up your lab at the Help Desk : this will attract attention to your project , and to your determination to get out ahead of the curve with Win7 ) .
Sign up for Microsoft training on this , and seek reimbursement : paying for your training will make your bosses more likely to seek benefit from it .
( Pay for the training before you seek reimbursement , and attend it even if you do n't get the money from your employer .
This will convey your determination to advance from a reactive posture [ Help Desk ] to proactivity [ preventing problems ] ) .
I was lead tech on a help desk for a year .
The consulting firm that put me there tried to sell the client on an XP image .
The client agreed , on the condition that I design the image .
Next thing I knew , I was sought after as an image design Subject Matter Expert.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are in an excellent position to observe, understand, and theorize about the configuration of the company's Windows image.
There are Windows 7 deployments in your future... would you rather sit at the desk trying to support the end users, or take part in the image design to help prevent problems?
Grab everything you can get about Windows 7 installation and deployment.
Throw together a few test mules using the release candidate, and gain as much hands-on experience as possible installing and pre-configuring desktops to better meet the needs of your employer.
(If possible, gather the equipment and set up your lab at the Help Desk: this will attract attention to your project, and to your determination to get out ahead of the curve with Win7).
Sign up for Microsoft training on this, and seek reimbursement: paying for your training will make your bosses more likely to seek benefit from it.
(Pay for the training before you seek reimbursement, and attend it even if you don't get the money from your employer.
This will convey your determination to advance from a reactive posture [Help Desk] to proactivity [preventing problems]).
I was lead tech on a help desk for a year.
The consulting firm that put me there tried to sell the client on an XP image.
The client agreed, on the condition that I design the image.
Next thing I knew, I was sought after as an image design Subject Matter Expert...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370337</id>
	<title>Be a man!</title>
	<author>Quiet\_Desperation</author>
	<datestamp>1245268680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Go forth into the world and create printers that do not jam and an Outlook that does not freeze!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Go forth into the world and create printers that do not jam and an Outlook that does not freeze !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Go forth into the world and create printers that do not jam and an Outlook that does not freeze!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28385131</id>
	<title>Become a SysAdmin</title>
	<author>WhiteHorse-The Origi</author>
	<datestamp>1245344100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The next rung is a System Administrator. You'll need to learn a few additional OS's and a bunch of gnarly hardware. Following that, go into either Dev(programming), Sys Engr(hardware), or DB(data).

After you've spent 15 years of your life working your way up the ladder, your job will be outsourced to the slums of East Beijing and the best you can hope for at that point is to start a new career in another field. Good luck!

Your MS degree won't mean squat because they are easily faked(or bought) in places like India, Phillipines, Vietnam, China, etc.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The next rung is a System Administrator .
You 'll need to learn a few additional OS 's and a bunch of gnarly hardware .
Following that , go into either Dev ( programming ) , Sys Engr ( hardware ) , or DB ( data ) .
After you 've spent 15 years of your life working your way up the ladder , your job will be outsourced to the slums of East Beijing and the best you can hope for at that point is to start a new career in another field .
Good luck !
Your MS degree wo n't mean squat because they are easily faked ( or bought ) in places like India , Phillipines , Vietnam , China , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The next rung is a System Administrator.
You'll need to learn a few additional OS's and a bunch of gnarly hardware.
Following that, go into either Dev(programming), Sys Engr(hardware), or DB(data).
After you've spent 15 years of your life working your way up the ladder, your job will be outsourced to the slums of East Beijing and the best you can hope for at that point is to start a new career in another field.
Good luck!
Your MS degree won't mean squat because they are easily faked(or bought) in places like India, Phillipines, Vietnam, China, etc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371389</id>
	<title>Re:Run For Your Life. Now.</title>
	<author>Exception Duck</author>
	<datestamp>1245321540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Plumbers have to get their hand dirty in human feces.  I'd rather deal with Microsoft feces.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Plumbers have to get their hand dirty in human feces .
I 'd rather deal with Microsoft feces .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Plumbers have to get their hand dirty in human feces.
I'd rather deal with Microsoft feces.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369805</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369703</id>
	<title>Some potential reading material</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245260340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/30/1823242<br>http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/01/173205<br>http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/08/12/01/0145255.shtml<br>http://it.slashdot.org/story/09/06/09/2028202/How-Do-IT-Guys-Get-Respect-and-Not-Become-BOFHs?art\_pos=2<br>http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/05/11/0126212/Go-For-a-Masters-Or-Not?art\_pos=14</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //news.slashdot.org/article.pl ? sid = 08/04/30/1823242http : //developers.slashdot.org/article.pl ? sid = 08/07/01/173205http : //ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/08/12/01/0145255.shtmlhttp : //it.slashdot.org/story/09/06/09/2028202/How-Do-IT-Guys-Get-Respect-and-Not-Become-BOFHs ? art \ _pos = 2http : //news.slashdot.org/story/09/05/11/0126212/Go-For-a-Masters-Or-Not ? art \ _pos = 14</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/30/1823242http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/01/173205http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/08/12/01/0145255.shtmlhttp://it.slashdot.org/story/09/06/09/2028202/How-Do-IT-Guys-Get-Respect-and-Not-Become-BOFHs?art\_pos=2http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/05/11/0126212/Go-For-a-Masters-Or-Not?art\_pos=14</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372935</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>stu72</author>
	<datestamp>1245335160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>too bad he was wrong about the sunscreen.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>too bad he was wrong about the sunscreen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>too bad he was wrong about the sunscreen.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371703</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372655</id>
	<title>I'm in the same boat, this what I'm doing...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245333720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>to get out of it.</p><p>I'm a tier 2 desktop support tech, basically doing the same stuff you are (jammed printers, reimaging, occasional AD maintenance.) Currently I hold a BA in Political Science, and an MCP for XP support. This is my first "real" job. From what I have gleaned from the people I work with and for, my best shot at being promoted to next level is to go for my MCSA or the 2008 equivalent of the MCITP. I've been mulling around going back to grad school and getting an MBA in IT administration, but this path will completely remove me from the actually IT work. I plan on going to the route of Server Admin, and to get my foot in the door all I need is the MCITP. I work in the government sector, so I dunno if more is required for private companies. Anyway, I dont really recommend trying to advance yourself in the desktop support field because there isn't much room to grow. Once you become a lead or a manager you've pretty much peaked unless you have other skills such as project management or IT related. Anyway good luck, from one IT monkey to another.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>to get out of it.I 'm a tier 2 desktop support tech , basically doing the same stuff you are ( jammed printers , reimaging , occasional AD maintenance .
) Currently I hold a BA in Political Science , and an MCP for XP support .
This is my first " real " job .
From what I have gleaned from the people I work with and for , my best shot at being promoted to next level is to go for my MCSA or the 2008 equivalent of the MCITP .
I 've been mulling around going back to grad school and getting an MBA in IT administration , but this path will completely remove me from the actually IT work .
I plan on going to the route of Server Admin , and to get my foot in the door all I need is the MCITP .
I work in the government sector , so I dunno if more is required for private companies .
Anyway , I dont really recommend trying to advance yourself in the desktop support field because there is n't much room to grow .
Once you become a lead or a manager you 've pretty much peaked unless you have other skills such as project management or IT related .
Anyway good luck , from one IT monkey to another .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>to get out of it.I'm a tier 2 desktop support tech, basically doing the same stuff you are (jammed printers, reimaging, occasional AD maintenance.
) Currently I hold a BA in Political Science, and an MCP for XP support.
This is my first "real" job.
From what I have gleaned from the people I work with and for, my best shot at being promoted to next level is to go for my MCSA or the 2008 equivalent of the MCITP.
I've been mulling around going back to grad school and getting an MBA in IT administration, but this path will completely remove me from the actually IT work.
I plan on going to the route of Server Admin, and to get my foot in the door all I need is the MCITP.
I work in the government sector, so I dunno if more is required for private companies.
Anyway, I dont really recommend trying to advance yourself in the desktop support field because there isn't much room to grow.
Once you become a lead or a manager you've pretty much peaked unless you have other skills such as project management or IT related.
Anyway good luck, from one IT monkey to another.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28384977</id>
	<title>Re:What degree do you have?</title>
	<author>root\_cause\_analysis</author>
	<datestamp>1245341760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't know that I agree with the external helpdesk "firewall". I've only managed one external support helpdesk, but at that company it wasn't unusual to lose our best techs to other departments. The key being that the tech developed great relationships with the external companies through their tech support. Plus they gained extremely detailed knowledge of the software products and the business models of their clients. Therefore, when other departments needed a well-trained business support manager, the looked at the top performers in my department first because those guys already had an established relationship with their customers. About 30\% of our helpdesk techs moved up to mid-level management positions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't know that I agree with the external helpdesk " firewall " .
I 've only managed one external support helpdesk , but at that company it was n't unusual to lose our best techs to other departments .
The key being that the tech developed great relationships with the external companies through their tech support .
Plus they gained extremely detailed knowledge of the software products and the business models of their clients .
Therefore , when other departments needed a well-trained business support manager , the looked at the top performers in my department first because those guys already had an established relationship with their customers .
About 30 \ % of our helpdesk techs moved up to mid-level management positions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't know that I agree with the external helpdesk "firewall".
I've only managed one external support helpdesk, but at that company it wasn't unusual to lose our best techs to other departments.
The key being that the tech developed great relationships with the external companies through their tech support.
Plus they gained extremely detailed knowledge of the software products and the business models of their clients.
Therefore, when other departments needed a well-trained business support manager, the looked at the top performers in my department first because those guys already had an established relationship with their customers.
About 30\% of our helpdesk techs moved up to mid-level management positions.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370067</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28380097</id>
	<title>Re:Run For Your Life. Now.</title>
	<author>cjacobs001</author>
	<datestamp>1245317460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Fiber is not yet ready for installation 'in the house', is it?   Are there any normal household devices that will hook straight to fiber ?

'lemme no
Thanks</htmltext>
<tokenext>Fiber is not yet ready for installation 'in the house ' , is it ?
Are there any normal household devices that will hook straight to fiber ?
'lem me no Thanks</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fiber is not yet ready for installation 'in the house', is it?
Are there any normal household devices that will hook straight to fiber ?
'lemme no
Thanks</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369647</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372425</id>
	<title>Re:It's not that bad, just stick with it!</title>
	<author>OhHellWithIt</author>
	<datestamp>1245332280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>How bad can it really be, they are just lawyers?</p></div><p>Lawyers aren't the worst, but they're certainly a challenge. Supporting lawyers, you have really smart people who spend all their time studying the intricacies of legal documents and the law, who generally have <em>way</em> more stuff to read than they have time for. The last thing they want to do is learn to understand how computers work. I know whereof I speak, because I worked for two years in IT litigation support, mostly writing how-to documentation.</p><p>To the original poster, my advice is to keep working your day job and pick up computer skills in evening classes and personal reading/experimentation. A computer science degree is useful the first couple of years, but as you accumulate experience, you'll find the degree is less of an issue.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>How bad can it really be , they are just lawyers ? Lawyers are n't the worst , but they 're certainly a challenge .
Supporting lawyers , you have really smart people who spend all their time studying the intricacies of legal documents and the law , who generally have way more stuff to read than they have time for .
The last thing they want to do is learn to understand how computers work .
I know whereof I speak , because I worked for two years in IT litigation support , mostly writing how-to documentation.To the original poster , my advice is to keep working your day job and pick up computer skills in evening classes and personal reading/experimentation .
A computer science degree is useful the first couple of years , but as you accumulate experience , you 'll find the degree is less of an issue .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How bad can it really be, they are just lawyers?Lawyers aren't the worst, but they're certainly a challenge.
Supporting lawyers, you have really smart people who spend all their time studying the intricacies of legal documents and the law, who generally have way more stuff to read than they have time for.
The last thing they want to do is learn to understand how computers work.
I know whereof I speak, because I worked for two years in IT litigation support, mostly writing how-to documentation.To the original poster, my advice is to keep working your day job and pick up computer skills in evening classes and personal reading/experimentation.
A computer science degree is useful the first couple of years, but as you accumulate experience, you'll find the degree is less of an issue.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369603</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369863</id>
	<title>Do both!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245261900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>After six years, my first post.  Excuse my lack of sarcasm and obvious sincerity - I will get better.  You are in one of the most grueling roles in the business, but an excellent training ground for your future.  Since you apparently have an undergraduate degree, I'd focus on developing a specific IT skill - UNIX is indeed a good next step for a help desk guy, as is internetworking.  If you want to move into the CIO ranks, you'd be wise to both broaden and deepen your skill set, especially in the area of enterprise software development (stay Web, kid...).  My guess is you're young and have time - work on the Masters degree part time, use your current job to hone your interpersonal skills and understanding of your business.  These are the truly indispensible abilities for any job, and there are far too few people who have them in IT.  And good luck - it's a fun and rewarding profession.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>After six years , my first post .
Excuse my lack of sarcasm and obvious sincerity - I will get better .
You are in one of the most grueling roles in the business , but an excellent training ground for your future .
Since you apparently have an undergraduate degree , I 'd focus on developing a specific IT skill - UNIX is indeed a good next step for a help desk guy , as is internetworking .
If you want to move into the CIO ranks , you 'd be wise to both broaden and deepen your skill set , especially in the area of enterprise software development ( stay Web , kid... ) .
My guess is you 're young and have time - work on the Masters degree part time , use your current job to hone your interpersonal skills and understanding of your business .
These are the truly indispensible abilities for any job , and there are far too few people who have them in IT .
And good luck - it 's a fun and rewarding profession .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>After six years, my first post.
Excuse my lack of sarcasm and obvious sincerity - I will get better.
You are in one of the most grueling roles in the business, but an excellent training ground for your future.
Since you apparently have an undergraduate degree, I'd focus on developing a specific IT skill - UNIX is indeed a good next step for a help desk guy, as is internetworking.
If you want to move into the CIO ranks, you'd be wise to both broaden and deepen your skill set, especially in the area of enterprise software development (stay Web, kid...).
My guess is you're young and have time - work on the Masters degree part time, use your current job to hone your interpersonal skills and understanding of your business.
These are the truly indispensible abilities for any job, and there are far too few people who have them in IT.
And good luck - it's a fun and rewarding profession.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369819</id>
	<title>Re:Learn a UNIX</title>
	<author>smash</author>
	<datestamp>1245261480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>More relevant I think is to perhaps use a Unix to learn network related skills such as TCP/IP network design, DNS, mail routing, VOIP, etc.
</p><p>
Unix (or Windows) is a tool to accomplish a given task.  Learn the fundamentals of what you are trying to do and how the protocols work together, and then you can apply this to whatever operating system you happen to get lumbered with by the bean counters or previous management/admin...
</p><p>
So yeah, download a free unix, but remember, its just a tool to achieve a desired service.  Focus on the services (and how to diagnose them), rather than the actual particular software package so much.  Knowing Linux's quirks (just for example) inside out won't do you any good if you're trying to support Windows or Solaris (or SCO or FreeBSD, etc)...
</p><p>
Keep your mind open, and get exposure to as many tools as possible, it will increase your opportunity for employment...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>More relevant I think is to perhaps use a Unix to learn network related skills such as TCP/IP network design , DNS , mail routing , VOIP , etc .
Unix ( or Windows ) is a tool to accomplish a given task .
Learn the fundamentals of what you are trying to do and how the protocols work together , and then you can apply this to whatever operating system you happen to get lumbered with by the bean counters or previous management/admin.. . So yeah , download a free unix , but remember , its just a tool to achieve a desired service .
Focus on the services ( and how to diagnose them ) , rather than the actual particular software package so much .
Knowing Linux 's quirks ( just for example ) inside out wo n't do you any good if you 're trying to support Windows or Solaris ( or SCO or FreeBSD , etc ) .. . Keep your mind open , and get exposure to as many tools as possible , it will increase your opportunity for employment.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>More relevant I think is to perhaps use a Unix to learn network related skills such as TCP/IP network design, DNS, mail routing, VOIP, etc.
Unix (or Windows) is a tool to accomplish a given task.
Learn the fundamentals of what you are trying to do and how the protocols work together, and then you can apply this to whatever operating system you happen to get lumbered with by the bean counters or previous management/admin...

So yeah, download a free unix, but remember, its just a tool to achieve a desired service.
Focus on the services (and how to diagnose them), rather than the actual particular software package so much.
Knowing Linux's quirks (just for example) inside out won't do you any good if you're trying to support Windows or Solaris (or SCO or FreeBSD, etc)...

Keep your mind open, and get exposure to as many tools as possible, it will increase your opportunity for employment...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369667</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371759</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Niet3sche</author>
	<datestamp>1245326100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>There are days I'd love to play with the tech and roll out cool things, and it does get annoying to handle the level 2 stuff (fortunately, I have a part-time helpdesk guy for the basics).

</p><p>One tip would be to get an intern, and dump some of the support tickets on them. Honestly, I'm not sure how viable a solution that is (I'd be eager to hear others experiences), because I don't know if a CS person will want an internship like that. But maybe someone from a business background would be intrigued; you likely touch every part of the business, and there could be appeal there. </p></div> </blockquote><p>You have a PFY and you are advocating same.</p><p>I'm sure that Simon would be touched; BOFH continues to live on and be relevant nearly 15 years after being released on the World Wide Web.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are days I 'd love to play with the tech and roll out cool things , and it does get annoying to handle the level 2 stuff ( fortunately , I have a part-time helpdesk guy for the basics ) .
One tip would be to get an intern , and dump some of the support tickets on them .
Honestly , I 'm not sure how viable a solution that is ( I 'd be eager to hear others experiences ) , because I do n't know if a CS person will want an internship like that .
But maybe someone from a business background would be intrigued ; you likely touch every part of the business , and there could be appeal there .
You have a PFY and you are advocating same.I 'm sure that Simon would be touched ; BOFH continues to live on and be relevant nearly 15 years after being released on the World Wide Web .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are days I'd love to play with the tech and roll out cool things, and it does get annoying to handle the level 2 stuff (fortunately, I have a part-time helpdesk guy for the basics).
One tip would be to get an intern, and dump some of the support tickets on them.
Honestly, I'm not sure how viable a solution that is (I'd be eager to hear others experiences), because I don't know if a CS person will want an internship like that.
But maybe someone from a business background would be intrigued; you likely touch every part of the business, and there could be appeal there.
You have a PFY and you are advocating same.I'm sure that Simon would be touched; BOFH continues to live on and be relevant nearly 15 years after being released on the World Wide Web.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369807</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369805</id>
	<title>Re:Run For Your Life. Now.</title>
	<author>holophrastic</author>
	<datestamp>1245261300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wow, you know what, I totally agree.  You can ignore my large post elsewhere here about learning on your own.  I agree, run.  I double-agree, run to plumbing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow , you know what , I totally agree .
You can ignore my large post elsewhere here about learning on your own .
I agree , run .
I double-agree , run to plumbing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow, you know what, I totally agree.
You can ignore my large post elsewhere here about learning on your own.
I agree, run.
I double-agree, run to plumbing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369647</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373047</id>
	<title>This holds true for the IT field</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245335880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Help desk unfortunately lacks any kind of innovation on the job or creativity for most who do it.  If you cannot be either of those things in IT or any other job in general you will unless your a robot or slightly crazy dislike the job in time. Really you should see these kinds of jobs as temporary and use them to fill the gaps between more creative and innovative ventures. I have met countless people in help desk jobs with all kinds of backgrounds so I do not think I'm alone in this thought as many of the them were looking for other work or getting education while they were there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Help desk unfortunately lacks any kind of innovation on the job or creativity for most who do it .
If you can not be either of those things in IT or any other job in general you will unless your a robot or slightly crazy dislike the job in time .
Really you should see these kinds of jobs as temporary and use them to fill the gaps between more creative and innovative ventures .
I have met countless people in help desk jobs with all kinds of backgrounds so I do not think I 'm alone in this thought as many of the them were looking for other work or getting education while they were there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Help desk unfortunately lacks any kind of innovation on the job or creativity for most who do it.
If you cannot be either of those things in IT or any other job in general you will unless your a robot or slightly crazy dislike the job in time.
Really you should see these kinds of jobs as temporary and use them to fill the gaps between more creative and innovative ventures.
I have met countless people in help desk jobs with all kinds of backgrounds so I do not think I'm alone in this thought as many of the them were looking for other work or getting education while they were there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369569</id>
	<title>i've got some advice</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245259260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>learn to swim</htmltext>
<tokenext>learn to swim</tokentext>
<sentencetext>learn to swim</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369883</id>
	<title>Treat this as an opportunity.</title>
	<author>Photo\_Nut</author>
	<datestamp>1245262140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I answered the phones and staffed the front desk at the student help desk when I was in college. It was the best paid student job on campus - $10 per hour your first semester, and a lot of the time you weren't busy and could surf the net or do your homework. There were a few other Computer Science majors there with me, and we got to help out all levels of student, faculty, and staff with their problems. What I took away from that job is not that I dislike working in the service industry, but rather, that there were certain universal truths about end users that I couldn't learn about anywhere else.</p><p>The help desk is your opportunity to study the areas where computers and human interactions break down. Learning computer skills in some high level language like Java or C# while working at the help desk is a way to advance your career. Start out with a book, but have goals in mind. Computer Science education is all about leading you to the water. Buy or borrow a few good books, classic computer science texts, etc. Work through the examples and do the exercises when you're not on the phones.</p><p>Most importantly, design some UI on paper (I like graph paper for this because you draw a lot of boxes in designing UI). Figure out what you *want* the program to do when you click the buttons. Then use a free program like ant or Visual C# Express and build the UI. Take apart the generated code. Look at it. Study it. Solve a problem that is interesting to you. Do it for fun. If you don't enjoy making programs, then Computer Science is simply not for you. There are plenty of people in CS departments who are very smart and study very hard, but their heart is just not in it. You can tell because they stop writing software when the day is done.</p><p>If you want to practice on Linux and you have Windows, you can download Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 (free) or VMWare player (also free) and install Ubuntu on a virtual drive. Put that virtual drive on a USB key chain or iPod, and you have a mobile development platform that you can take home. The internet is full of human knowledge on the subject of Computer Science and other computer topics. A degree from a reputable college or university is not necessarily a requirement.</p><p>But you need to prove to most engineering firms that you have what it takes, and the best paying jobs ($75K+ benefits) usually require solid interviewing and development demonstrations with someone who has 5 to 25 years of development experience and typically a Bachelors or advanced degree in Computer Science, Computer Engineering, Math, Physics, or something equally challenging. A degree won't get you in the door though. We see tons of people straight out of college with their Sc.B. degree who can't solve a problem involving a linked list, binary search on an array, binary search tree, hash table, dealing with memory management, and many other problems you need to be able to solve on your own as an engineer.</p><p>I started writing code sometime around the age of 6 in the early 80's because I wanted to make a game. I ended up discovering that game writing is interesting, but what I love to write are tools that interact with pixels and musical notes. Software engineering can be grueling work. In my best weeks, I write hundreds of lines of code. In my worst weeks, I spend long hours debugging and poking and proding and pulling out all the tricks, but get no closer to solving a bug which eventually is found to be something trivial in another part of the code. Highs are higher than in technical support, but lows are awfully low, too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I answered the phones and staffed the front desk at the student help desk when I was in college .
It was the best paid student job on campus - $ 10 per hour your first semester , and a lot of the time you were n't busy and could surf the net or do your homework .
There were a few other Computer Science majors there with me , and we got to help out all levels of student , faculty , and staff with their problems .
What I took away from that job is not that I dislike working in the service industry , but rather , that there were certain universal truths about end users that I could n't learn about anywhere else.The help desk is your opportunity to study the areas where computers and human interactions break down .
Learning computer skills in some high level language like Java or C # while working at the help desk is a way to advance your career .
Start out with a book , but have goals in mind .
Computer Science education is all about leading you to the water .
Buy or borrow a few good books , classic computer science texts , etc .
Work through the examples and do the exercises when you 're not on the phones.Most importantly , design some UI on paper ( I like graph paper for this because you draw a lot of boxes in designing UI ) .
Figure out what you * want * the program to do when you click the buttons .
Then use a free program like ant or Visual C # Express and build the UI .
Take apart the generated code .
Look at it .
Study it .
Solve a problem that is interesting to you .
Do it for fun .
If you do n't enjoy making programs , then Computer Science is simply not for you .
There are plenty of people in CS departments who are very smart and study very hard , but their heart is just not in it .
You can tell because they stop writing software when the day is done.If you want to practice on Linux and you have Windows , you can download Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 ( free ) or VMWare player ( also free ) and install Ubuntu on a virtual drive .
Put that virtual drive on a USB key chain or iPod , and you have a mobile development platform that you can take home .
The internet is full of human knowledge on the subject of Computer Science and other computer topics .
A degree from a reputable college or university is not necessarily a requirement.But you need to prove to most engineering firms that you have what it takes , and the best paying jobs ( $ 75K + benefits ) usually require solid interviewing and development demonstrations with someone who has 5 to 25 years of development experience and typically a Bachelors or advanced degree in Computer Science , Computer Engineering , Math , Physics , or something equally challenging .
A degree wo n't get you in the door though .
We see tons of people straight out of college with their Sc.B .
degree who ca n't solve a problem involving a linked list , binary search on an array , binary search tree , hash table , dealing with memory management , and many other problems you need to be able to solve on your own as an engineer.I started writing code sometime around the age of 6 in the early 80 's because I wanted to make a game .
I ended up discovering that game writing is interesting , but what I love to write are tools that interact with pixels and musical notes .
Software engineering can be grueling work .
In my best weeks , I write hundreds of lines of code .
In my worst weeks , I spend long hours debugging and poking and proding and pulling out all the tricks , but get no closer to solving a bug which eventually is found to be something trivial in another part of the code .
Highs are higher than in technical support , but lows are awfully low , too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I answered the phones and staffed the front desk at the student help desk when I was in college.
It was the best paid student job on campus - $10 per hour your first semester, and a lot of the time you weren't busy and could surf the net or do your homework.
There were a few other Computer Science majors there with me, and we got to help out all levels of student, faculty, and staff with their problems.
What I took away from that job is not that I dislike working in the service industry, but rather, that there were certain universal truths about end users that I couldn't learn about anywhere else.The help desk is your opportunity to study the areas where computers and human interactions break down.
Learning computer skills in some high level language like Java or C# while working at the help desk is a way to advance your career.
Start out with a book, but have goals in mind.
Computer Science education is all about leading you to the water.
Buy or borrow a few good books, classic computer science texts, etc.
Work through the examples and do the exercises when you're not on the phones.Most importantly, design some UI on paper (I like graph paper for this because you draw a lot of boxes in designing UI).
Figure out what you *want* the program to do when you click the buttons.
Then use a free program like ant or Visual C# Express and build the UI.
Take apart the generated code.
Look at it.
Study it.
Solve a problem that is interesting to you.
Do it for fun.
If you don't enjoy making programs, then Computer Science is simply not for you.
There are plenty of people in CS departments who are very smart and study very hard, but their heart is just not in it.
You can tell because they stop writing software when the day is done.If you want to practice on Linux and you have Windows, you can download Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 (free) or VMWare player (also free) and install Ubuntu on a virtual drive.
Put that virtual drive on a USB key chain or iPod, and you have a mobile development platform that you can take home.
The internet is full of human knowledge on the subject of Computer Science and other computer topics.
A degree from a reputable college or university is not necessarily a requirement.But you need to prove to most engineering firms that you have what it takes, and the best paying jobs ($75K+ benefits) usually require solid interviewing and development demonstrations with someone who has 5 to 25 years of development experience and typically a Bachelors or advanced degree in Computer Science, Computer Engineering, Math, Physics, or something equally challenging.
A degree won't get you in the door though.
We see tons of people straight out of college with their Sc.B.
degree who can't solve a problem involving a linked list, binary search on an array, binary search tree, hash table, dealing with memory management, and many other problems you need to be able to solve on your own as an engineer.I started writing code sometime around the age of 6 in the early 80's because I wanted to make a game.
I ended up discovering that game writing is interesting, but what I love to write are tools that interact with pixels and musical notes.
Software engineering can be grueling work.
In my best weeks, I write hundreds of lines of code.
In my worst weeks, I spend long hours debugging and poking and proding and pulling out all the tricks, but get no closer to solving a bug which eventually is found to be something trivial in another part of the code.
Highs are higher than in technical support, but lows are awfully low, too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369791</id>
	<title>Options</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245261240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have been in many different aspects of I.T. from the HP helpdesk to a mom and pop repair shop and a network admin at a bank (current). I can tell you the scenery may change but the actual job does not you will still have end users asking questions and expecting help for some pretty strange and annoying things sometimes. It's the nature of the beast. I seem to think that any faucet of this industry will have that as it is community driven IE: people asking questions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have been in many different aspects of I.T .
from the HP helpdesk to a mom and pop repair shop and a network admin at a bank ( current ) .
I can tell you the scenery may change but the actual job does not you will still have end users asking questions and expecting help for some pretty strange and annoying things sometimes .
It 's the nature of the beast .
I seem to think that any faucet of this industry will have that as it is community driven IE : people asking questions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have been in many different aspects of I.T.
from the HP helpdesk to a mom and pop repair shop and a network admin at a bank (current).
I can tell you the scenery may change but the actual job does not you will still have end users asking questions and expecting help for some pretty strange and annoying things sometimes.
It's the nature of the beast.
I seem to think that any faucet of this industry will have that as it is community driven IE: people asking questions.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370869</id>
	<title>IT is a weapon of growth</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245316680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>IT is a support function, deal with it or find a different career field.</p></div><p>I disagree.  I work in IT for a 400 person non-IT organization and I spend my working days developing new and innovative solutions for our organization that will help us more effectively compete in the market.  <br> <br>

I spend time on things like developing Intranet systems that allow communication and organization among staff in ways they never dreamed of before, interfacing medical equipment with HMS/ERP systems, creating network monitoring systems that send our store-room staff SMS messages when doctors printers are running low on paper, just to name a few.  I also spend time revising existing systems so that they need less support.<br> <br>

We have help-desk techs, sure, but that's because our department has structure.  I'm part of the offense, they're part of the defense, and we're all aware that we're part of a team and that neither of us can grow without the other; My work is not more important than theirs, just "different."  My work makes their work easier, and their work makes my work easier.  <br> <br>

Our help-desk guys, like any help-desk guys, want to learn and grow their skills -- and I<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/want/ them to grow.  When everyone does their jobs well, we end up with free time -- which can be spent on things like education and development.  They grow, I grow, our systems grow, the organization grows, I make sure their paychecks grow -- wash, rinse, repeat.<br> <br>

If your organization doesn't provide avenues of growth, then move to another organization that does.  Trust me: They exist.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>IT is a support function , deal with it or find a different career field.I disagree .
I work in IT for a 400 person non-IT organization and I spend my working days developing new and innovative solutions for our organization that will help us more effectively compete in the market .
I spend time on things like developing Intranet systems that allow communication and organization among staff in ways they never dreamed of before , interfacing medical equipment with HMS/ERP systems , creating network monitoring systems that send our store-room staff SMS messages when doctors printers are running low on paper , just to name a few .
I also spend time revising existing systems so that they need less support .
We have help-desk techs , sure , but that 's because our department has structure .
I 'm part of the offense , they 're part of the defense , and we 're all aware that we 're part of a team and that neither of us can grow without the other ; My work is not more important than theirs , just " different .
" My work makes their work easier , and their work makes my work easier .
Our help-desk guys , like any help-desk guys , want to learn and grow their skills -- and I /want/ them to grow .
When everyone does their jobs well , we end up with free time -- which can be spent on things like education and development .
They grow , I grow , our systems grow , the organization grows , I make sure their paychecks grow -- wash , rinse , repeat .
If your organization does n't provide avenues of growth , then move to another organization that does .
Trust me : They exist .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IT is a support function, deal with it or find a different career field.I disagree.
I work in IT for a 400 person non-IT organization and I spend my working days developing new and innovative solutions for our organization that will help us more effectively compete in the market.
I spend time on things like developing Intranet systems that allow communication and organization among staff in ways they never dreamed of before, interfacing medical equipment with HMS/ERP systems, creating network monitoring systems that send our store-room staff SMS messages when doctors printers are running low on paper, just to name a few.
I also spend time revising existing systems so that they need less support.
We have help-desk techs, sure, but that's because our department has structure.
I'm part of the offense, they're part of the defense, and we're all aware that we're part of a team and that neither of us can grow without the other; My work is not more important than theirs, just "different.
"  My work makes their work easier, and their work makes my work easier.
Our help-desk guys, like any help-desk guys, want to learn and grow their skills -- and I /want/ them to grow.
When everyone does their jobs well, we end up with free time -- which can be spent on things like education and development.
They grow, I grow, our systems grow, the organization grows, I make sure their paychecks grow -- wash, rinse, repeat.
If your organization doesn't provide avenues of growth, then move to another organization that does.
Trust me: They exist.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28379961</id>
	<title>Re:A few more options</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245317100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Excellent advise except the certs. I run a mid sized IT department, about 20 staff and 800 end users. I can tell you one of the first things that gets peoples resumes throw away is excessive certs. About 10 years ago I realized that unless you have a CCIE, certs mean nothing. I can teach my grandma to get a MCSE with a transcender, so I see no value in a cert. When I look at a resume here's the order of importance.</p><p>1. Work experience, what major projects and technologies have you worked with<br>2. Education, just something, show me that you went to college. It doesn't matter if you have a Masters or an Associates, just have something. If anything I frown away from anything above a BA, a masters degree equals more money out of my payroll budget.<br>3. Anything that's not certs. Home labs is an excellent item here, especially for sysadmin work.<br>4. Then certs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Excellent advise except the certs .
I run a mid sized IT department , about 20 staff and 800 end users .
I can tell you one of the first things that gets peoples resumes throw away is excessive certs .
About 10 years ago I realized that unless you have a CCIE , certs mean nothing .
I can teach my grandma to get a MCSE with a transcender , so I see no value in a cert .
When I look at a resume here 's the order of importance.1 .
Work experience , what major projects and technologies have you worked with2 .
Education , just something , show me that you went to college .
It does n't matter if you have a Masters or an Associates , just have something .
If anything I frown away from anything above a BA , a masters degree equals more money out of my payroll budget.3 .
Anything that 's not certs .
Home labs is an excellent item here , especially for sysadmin work.4 .
Then certs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Excellent advise except the certs.
I run a mid sized IT department, about 20 staff and 800 end users.
I can tell you one of the first things that gets peoples resumes throw away is excessive certs.
About 10 years ago I realized that unless you have a CCIE, certs mean nothing.
I can teach my grandma to get a MCSE with a transcender, so I see no value in a cert.
When I look at a resume here's the order of importance.1.
Work experience, what major projects and technologies have you worked with2.
Education, just something, show me that you went to college.
It doesn't matter if you have a Masters or an Associates, just have something.
If anything I frown away from anything above a BA, a masters degree equals more money out of my payroll budget.3.
Anything that's not certs.
Home labs is an excellent item here, especially for sysadmin work.4.
Then certs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369719</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28383779</id>
	<title>think of it as an experience in learning something</title>
	<author>superwiz</author>
	<datestamp>1245333420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It may seem very rote, but if you are frustrated by the people you have to deal with (as your stress indicates), then you may benefit from rethinking of your approach to the whole situation.  People who succeed in technology are usually perfectionists.  Adapt the attitude that you'll be great at whatever you are doing <i>right now</i>.  People you work with probably are not dumb.  Their area of expertise, however, is very different from yours.  In a word, look for ways to make yourself useful.  If you find a conversation frustrating, don't think "I gotta get out of here" after the conversation is over.  Try to figure out what the other person needed that you didn't communicate to them.  Communication is one of the most valuable skills in creation of technology because most technology is created through large-scale cooperative effort.  Think of your current arrangement as a training ground in communication.  Once you learn how to communicate with people who are intelligent even though they are not tech-savvy, you'll become much more valuable to a technology company in which you really do want to work.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It may seem very rote , but if you are frustrated by the people you have to deal with ( as your stress indicates ) , then you may benefit from rethinking of your approach to the whole situation .
People who succeed in technology are usually perfectionists .
Adapt the attitude that you 'll be great at whatever you are doing right now .
People you work with probably are not dumb .
Their area of expertise , however , is very different from yours .
In a word , look for ways to make yourself useful .
If you find a conversation frustrating , do n't think " I got ta get out of here " after the conversation is over .
Try to figure out what the other person needed that you did n't communicate to them .
Communication is one of the most valuable skills in creation of technology because most technology is created through large-scale cooperative effort .
Think of your current arrangement as a training ground in communication .
Once you learn how to communicate with people who are intelligent even though they are not tech-savvy , you 'll become much more valuable to a technology company in which you really do want to work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It may seem very rote, but if you are frustrated by the people you have to deal with (as your stress indicates), then you may benefit from rethinking of your approach to the whole situation.
People who succeed in technology are usually perfectionists.
Adapt the attitude that you'll be great at whatever you are doing right now.
People you work with probably are not dumb.
Their area of expertise, however, is very different from yours.
In a word, look for ways to make yourself useful.
If you find a conversation frustrating, don't think "I gotta get out of here" after the conversation is over.
Try to figure out what the other person needed that you didn't communicate to them.
Communication is one of the most valuable skills in creation of technology because most technology is created through large-scale cooperative effort.
Think of your current arrangement as a training ground in communication.
Once you learn how to communicate with people who are intelligent even though they are not tech-savvy, you'll become much more valuable to a technology company in which you really do want to work.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370203</id>
	<title>Spruce up the resume and get involved with OSS</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245266520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I used to work at a school....for 3 years....if you think dealing with less than knowledgeable end users is tiresome, try dealing with kids.  Not only do they not know a lot sometimes, but their blatant lack of respect for the equipment that you have placed in front of them is nothing short of shocking.  Try outfitting an entire suite of computers, only to find mice ripped out and keyboards trashed, hdds stolen etc, and it's not like we didn't try to secure these things.  At one point we enclosed the pcs themselves in a wooden surround.  The kids just ripped out mice and keyboards, breaking the connections and cables.</p><p>I worked there for 3 years, moving up from IT technician (basically helpdesk for kids) to IT manager in about 2 years.  When I got to the end I had nowhere else to move up to.  I'd always heard it was hard to move out of education, but the truth was far worse than the rumour.  First thing to do, spruce up the resume, get it onto some job sites.  At the end of the day, if you're not happy in our job, you should really be looking to move.  You're not doing yourself, or the business any good.</p><p>Also, I worked with open source for a while too in my spare time, this shows to the potential employer that you have a passion for technology.  I'm not rebuking the MSc route, but to be fair, many people get MSc's, but not lal are passionate about technology, and use it just as a route to get a high paid job.</p><p>Bottom line, find something you enjoy doing, it will benefit both you and your business.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I used to work at a school....for 3 years....if you think dealing with less than knowledgeable end users is tiresome , try dealing with kids .
Not only do they not know a lot sometimes , but their blatant lack of respect for the equipment that you have placed in front of them is nothing short of shocking .
Try outfitting an entire suite of computers , only to find mice ripped out and keyboards trashed , hdds stolen etc , and it 's not like we did n't try to secure these things .
At one point we enclosed the pcs themselves in a wooden surround .
The kids just ripped out mice and keyboards , breaking the connections and cables.I worked there for 3 years , moving up from IT technician ( basically helpdesk for kids ) to IT manager in about 2 years .
When I got to the end I had nowhere else to move up to .
I 'd always heard it was hard to move out of education , but the truth was far worse than the rumour .
First thing to do , spruce up the resume , get it onto some job sites .
At the end of the day , if you 're not happy in our job , you should really be looking to move .
You 're not doing yourself , or the business any good.Also , I worked with open source for a while too in my spare time , this shows to the potential employer that you have a passion for technology .
I 'm not rebuking the MSc route , but to be fair , many people get MSc 's , but not lal are passionate about technology , and use it just as a route to get a high paid job.Bottom line , find something you enjoy doing , it will benefit both you and your business .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used to work at a school....for 3 years....if you think dealing with less than knowledgeable end users is tiresome, try dealing with kids.
Not only do they not know a lot sometimes, but their blatant lack of respect for the equipment that you have placed in front of them is nothing short of shocking.
Try outfitting an entire suite of computers, only to find mice ripped out and keyboards trashed, hdds stolen etc, and it's not like we didn't try to secure these things.
At one point we enclosed the pcs themselves in a wooden surround.
The kids just ripped out mice and keyboards, breaking the connections and cables.I worked there for 3 years, moving up from IT technician (basically helpdesk for kids) to IT manager in about 2 years.
When I got to the end I had nowhere else to move up to.
I'd always heard it was hard to move out of education, but the truth was far worse than the rumour.
First thing to do, spruce up the resume, get it onto some job sites.
At the end of the day, if you're not happy in our job, you should really be looking to move.
You're not doing yourself, or the business any good.Also, I worked with open source for a while too in my spare time, this shows to the potential employer that you have a passion for technology.
I'm not rebuking the MSc route, but to be fair, many people get MSc's, but not lal are passionate about technology, and use it just as a route to get a high paid job.Bottom line, find something you enjoy doing, it will benefit both you and your business.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371617</id>
	<title>Re:Distractions normal. Support is part of other j</title>
	<author>mikael\_j</author>
	<datestamp>1245324660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree about how you don't get fewer distractions when leaving the support/helldesk world, I started out doing web development for a small company that did custom solutions for other companies and that was the only job I've had where I didn't have any distractions, and that was simply because they charged clients so much for every hour I worked that it didn't matter if I sat around doing nothing half the time. After college I ended up stuck in a support role for a couple of years. There were actually very few distractions in that job, the disadvantages were of course that I had no control whatsoever and I could be forced to work all sorts of odd hours. And the grind of having a mail queue stretching back a week or two sucked pretty badly.</p><p>These days I'm a developer again, the distractions, interruptions and constant context switching are a royal pain in the ass but at least I feel a bit more appreciated, and it's very nice to be able to say "No, I can't get that done this week but I'll try to get it done next week if nothing very urgent comes up" and actually having high-ranking people in the company accept that instead of getting the "Work harder you lazy bastard" type of response something like that would get me in support is extremely nice.</p><p>So yeah, I can understand why the OP would still want to move out of a support role, it's not just the distractions, it's the fact that <b>everyone</b> outranks you and is able to push you around, not to mention that if you're overworked you're likely to just be told to "work harder" (while of course not being allowed to work overtime since you're scheduled to work certain hours and only those hours (overtime = double pay, by law where I live)).</p><p>/Mikael</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree about how you do n't get fewer distractions when leaving the support/helldesk world , I started out doing web development for a small company that did custom solutions for other companies and that was the only job I 've had where I did n't have any distractions , and that was simply because they charged clients so much for every hour I worked that it did n't matter if I sat around doing nothing half the time .
After college I ended up stuck in a support role for a couple of years .
There were actually very few distractions in that job , the disadvantages were of course that I had no control whatsoever and I could be forced to work all sorts of odd hours .
And the grind of having a mail queue stretching back a week or two sucked pretty badly.These days I 'm a developer again , the distractions , interruptions and constant context switching are a royal pain in the ass but at least I feel a bit more appreciated , and it 's very nice to be able to say " No , I ca n't get that done this week but I 'll try to get it done next week if nothing very urgent comes up " and actually having high-ranking people in the company accept that instead of getting the " Work harder you lazy bastard " type of response something like that would get me in support is extremely nice.So yeah , I can understand why the OP would still want to move out of a support role , it 's not just the distractions , it 's the fact that everyone outranks you and is able to push you around , not to mention that if you 're overworked you 're likely to just be told to " work harder " ( while of course not being allowed to work overtime since you 're scheduled to work certain hours and only those hours ( overtime = double pay , by law where I live ) ) ./Mikael</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree about how you don't get fewer distractions when leaving the support/helldesk world, I started out doing web development for a small company that did custom solutions for other companies and that was the only job I've had where I didn't have any distractions, and that was simply because they charged clients so much for every hour I worked that it didn't matter if I sat around doing nothing half the time.
After college I ended up stuck in a support role for a couple of years.
There were actually very few distractions in that job, the disadvantages were of course that I had no control whatsoever and I could be forced to work all sorts of odd hours.
And the grind of having a mail queue stretching back a week or two sucked pretty badly.These days I'm a developer again, the distractions, interruptions and constant context switching are a royal pain in the ass but at least I feel a bit more appreciated, and it's very nice to be able to say "No, I can't get that done this week but I'll try to get it done next week if nothing very urgent comes up" and actually having high-ranking people in the company accept that instead of getting the "Work harder you lazy bastard" type of response something like that would get me in support is extremely nice.So yeah, I can understand why the OP would still want to move out of a support role, it's not just the distractions, it's the fact that everyone outranks you and is able to push you around, not to mention that if you're overworked you're likely to just be told to "work harder" (while of course not being allowed to work overtime since you're scheduled to work certain hours and only those hours (overtime = double pay, by law where I live))./Mikael</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369669</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28376037</id>
	<title>Re:Ugh</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245347940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That is a fantastic idea!!!! Sex and partying w/hot chicks definitely clears the mind. Then once you are seeing clearly, you can then:<br>1. find/figure out what you like to do<br>2. find/figure out how to make money doing what you like to do.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That is a fantastic idea ! ! ! !
Sex and partying w/hot chicks definitely clears the mind .
Then once you are seeing clearly , you can then : 1. find/figure out what you like to do2 .
find/figure out how to make money doing what you like to do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is a fantastic idea!!!!
Sex and partying w/hot chicks definitely clears the mind.
Then once you are seeing clearly, you can then:1. find/figure out what you like to do2.
find/figure out how to make money doing what you like to do.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369673</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372477</id>
	<title>Re:Run For Your Life. Now.</title>
	<author>Kjella</author>
	<datestamp>1245332760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>(Heck, if you want to stay with computers, get certified to install fiber. It's only going to grow, and I've had trouble finding anyone to install it in the new house.) Something that doesn't expect you for the rest of your life to be answering the phone at 12:45am on random nights.</p></div><p>12:45am "OMG, our fiber connection is broken"</p><p>Just funny that you picked the other guys that also get called out at any time during major outages.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>( Heck , if you want to stay with computers , get certified to install fiber .
It 's only going to grow , and I 've had trouble finding anyone to install it in the new house .
) Something that does n't expect you for the rest of your life to be answering the phone at 12 : 45am on random nights.12 : 45am " OMG , our fiber connection is broken " Just funny that you picked the other guys that also get called out at any time during major outages .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>(Heck, if you want to stay with computers, get certified to install fiber.
It's only going to grow, and I've had trouble finding anyone to install it in the new house.
) Something that doesn't expect you for the rest of your life to be answering the phone at 12:45am on random nights.12:45am "OMG, our fiber connection is broken"Just funny that you picked the other guys that also get called out at any time during major outages.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369647</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373337</id>
	<title>do it yourself (by your bootstraps)</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245337080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>having worked 4 years at a helpdesk, I made the transition to fulltime software engineer.  My advice is to start programming at home, try to address problems at work with software solutions when possible, build up a portfolio of experience and projects that you can use while interviewing.  At some point, you'll stop being a helpdesk operator, and become a coder.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>having worked 4 years at a helpdesk , I made the transition to fulltime software engineer .
My advice is to start programming at home , try to address problems at work with software solutions when possible , build up a portfolio of experience and projects that you can use while interviewing .
At some point , you 'll stop being a helpdesk operator , and become a coder .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>having worked 4 years at a helpdesk, I made the transition to fulltime software engineer.
My advice is to start programming at home, try to address problems at work with software solutions when possible, build up a portfolio of experience and projects that you can use while interviewing.
At some point, you'll stop being a helpdesk operator, and become a coder.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369767</id>
	<title>Maintenance</title>
	<author>argee</author>
	<datestamp>1245261000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Web Development<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... databases<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... college<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
Get a high maintenance woman, and you will not
have to worry about any of those things.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Web Development ... databases ... college .. . Get a high maintenance woman , and you will not have to worry about any of those things .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Web Development ... databases ... college ...
Get a high maintenance woman, and you will not
have to worry about any of those things.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28385835</id>
	<title>Complete change of tack for a year</title>
	<author>Vastad</author>
	<datestamp>1245351240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Disclaimer: This is really more of a combined life-long regret/wish-fulfilment reply but I think you can still get a useful ping on the sonar from it.</p><p>If I was in your position, with a BSc already under the belt and (I'm guessing here) not yet hit your 30s, I would have indulged my Japanophilia and applied for the <a href="http://www.jetprogramme.org/" title="jetprogramme.org" rel="nofollow">JET program</a> [jetprogramme.org]. If you can get in, you'll have a year paid for (no need to burn any of your savings except for some travel expenses, toiletries and some guilty pleasures), you'll pick up a useful business language, expand your general life experience and maybe even have romance or two. Once you are in, you get preference for extending your commitment (saves them a bunch of work teaching someone new how to do their job). You get to wait out the recession too, optimisitic estimates say we'll be out of it by about 2012.</p><p>In a similar vein, a friend of mine is dropping his teaching career to drive a car to Mongolia from London for charity (there's a specific village community he's helping). He's using his savings to do it, he'll be piss poor when he's done, but the experience will be priceless. He's a good looking guy, very charming and he may even get a cool Discovery channel job out of it. I can totally picture him being that lucky.</p><p>Basically what I'm trying to say is, you can spend the recession NOT trying to have a career. It's OK. It <i>is</i> a little bit like trying to swim upriver doing so at a time like this.
<br>You can KEEP your savings. You can learn (not necessarily academically) without burning what you've earned.
<br>Consider doing something totally unrelated for a year. Who knows what doors it will open.</p><p>Now's a good time as any to buy yourself a little notebook and spend a weekend writing your ideas and dreams in it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Disclaimer : This is really more of a combined life-long regret/wish-fulfilment reply but I think you can still get a useful ping on the sonar from it.If I was in your position , with a BSc already under the belt and ( I 'm guessing here ) not yet hit your 30s , I would have indulged my Japanophilia and applied for the JET program [ jetprogramme.org ] .
If you can get in , you 'll have a year paid for ( no need to burn any of your savings except for some travel expenses , toiletries and some guilty pleasures ) , you 'll pick up a useful business language , expand your general life experience and maybe even have romance or two .
Once you are in , you get preference for extending your commitment ( saves them a bunch of work teaching someone new how to do their job ) .
You get to wait out the recession too , optimisitic estimates say we 'll be out of it by about 2012.In a similar vein , a friend of mine is dropping his teaching career to drive a car to Mongolia from London for charity ( there 's a specific village community he 's helping ) .
He 's using his savings to do it , he 'll be piss poor when he 's done , but the experience will be priceless .
He 's a good looking guy , very charming and he may even get a cool Discovery channel job out of it .
I can totally picture him being that lucky.Basically what I 'm trying to say is , you can spend the recession NOT trying to have a career .
It 's OK. It is a little bit like trying to swim upriver doing so at a time like this .
You can KEEP your savings .
You can learn ( not necessarily academically ) without burning what you 've earned .
Consider doing something totally unrelated for a year .
Who knows what doors it will open.Now 's a good time as any to buy yourself a little notebook and spend a weekend writing your ideas and dreams in it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Disclaimer: This is really more of a combined life-long regret/wish-fulfilment reply but I think you can still get a useful ping on the sonar from it.If I was in your position, with a BSc already under the belt and (I'm guessing here) not yet hit your 30s, I would have indulged my Japanophilia and applied for the JET program [jetprogramme.org].
If you can get in, you'll have a year paid for (no need to burn any of your savings except for some travel expenses, toiletries and some guilty pleasures), you'll pick up a useful business language, expand your general life experience and maybe even have romance or two.
Once you are in, you get preference for extending your commitment (saves them a bunch of work teaching someone new how to do their job).
You get to wait out the recession too, optimisitic estimates say we'll be out of it by about 2012.In a similar vein, a friend of mine is dropping his teaching career to drive a car to Mongolia from London for charity (there's a specific village community he's helping).
He's using his savings to do it, he'll be piss poor when he's done, but the experience will be priceless.
He's a good looking guy, very charming and he may even get a cool Discovery channel job out of it.
I can totally picture him being that lucky.Basically what I'm trying to say is, you can spend the recession NOT trying to have a career.
It's OK. It is a little bit like trying to swim upriver doing so at a time like this.
You can KEEP your savings.
You can learn (not necessarily academically) without burning what you've earned.
Consider doing something totally unrelated for a year.
Who knows what doors it will open.Now's a good time as any to buy yourself a little notebook and spend a weekend writing your ideas and dreams in it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369753</id>
	<title>If you choose web development..</title>
	<author>Auxis</author>
	<datestamp>1245260820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Create a new buzzword if you choose the web development route.  You'll become a millionaire.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Create a new buzzword if you choose the web development route .
You 'll become a millionaire .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Create a new buzzword if you choose the web development route.
You'll become a millionaire.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28377375</id>
	<title>Go back to school!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245353100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Go back to school... major in CS... get a job where you sit in-front of a computer all day, never leaving your cube... be as antisocial as you like.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Go back to school... major in CS... get a job where you sit in-front of a computer all day , never leaving your cube... be as antisocial as you like .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Go back to school... major in CS... get a job where you sit in-front of a computer all day, never leaving your cube... be as antisocial as you like.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28376431</id>
	<title>Web Dev in 1 year?</title>
	<author>Jane Q. Public</author>
	<datestamp>1245349440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That is what I did during the last big slump... went back to school.
<br> <br>
But even if you have a current Bachelor's in Computer Science, if you think you can get a decent education in Web Development in only 1 year, you are very much mistaken.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That is what I did during the last big slump... went back to school .
But even if you have a current Bachelor 's in Computer Science , if you think you can get a decent education in Web Development in only 1 year , you are very much mistaken .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is what I did during the last big slump... went back to school.
But even if you have a current Bachelor's in Computer Science, if you think you can get a decent education in Web Development in only 1 year, you are very much mistaken.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369709</id>
	<title>Lucky Bastard!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245260400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I even wish I could get a helpdesk position! Last help desk job I applied for had hundreds of applications...for an entry level help desk job. Just about any IT idiot can do front line support, but I didn't get the job. In this economy, I think you better just be happy you have your help desk job. Some of us have to work flipping burgers, waiting tables, or working retail because we can't get back into an IT job.</p><p>But if you have the money to do your masters, maybe do it. Perhaps the economy will be better when you're done. Just don't hold your breath.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I even wish I could get a helpdesk position !
Last help desk job I applied for had hundreds of applications...for an entry level help desk job .
Just about any IT idiot can do front line support , but I did n't get the job .
In this economy , I think you better just be happy you have your help desk job .
Some of us have to work flipping burgers , waiting tables , or working retail because we ca n't get back into an IT job.But if you have the money to do your masters , maybe do it .
Perhaps the economy will be better when you 're done .
Just do n't hold your breath .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I even wish I could get a helpdesk position!
Last help desk job I applied for had hundreds of applications...for an entry level help desk job.
Just about any IT idiot can do front line support, but I didn't get the job.
In this economy, I think you better just be happy you have your help desk job.
Some of us have to work flipping burgers, waiting tables, or working retail because we can't get back into an IT job.But if you have the money to do your masters, maybe do it.
Perhaps the economy will be better when you're done.
Just don't hold your breath.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28376111</id>
	<title>Get Your CCNA Cert</title>
	<author>ZaskarX</author>
	<datestamp>1245348180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Start working on your Cisco CCNA certification.  This is the best career move you can make if you want to stay in IT; network admins/engineers are always in high demand, even in the bad economy.

I was in your shoes a few years ago and attended the hands-on Cisco Network Academy training courses at my local community college.  It was a tough cert especially since I know almost nothing about networking but worth every hour and penny spent.  I was offered a job as a network admin for $15k more a year before I had even taken the test.  My user support days are now behind me and that is the best feeling in the world.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Start working on your Cisco CCNA certification .
This is the best career move you can make if you want to stay in IT ; network admins/engineers are always in high demand , even in the bad economy .
I was in your shoes a few years ago and attended the hands-on Cisco Network Academy training courses at my local community college .
It was a tough cert especially since I know almost nothing about networking but worth every hour and penny spent .
I was offered a job as a network admin for $ 15k more a year before I had even taken the test .
My user support days are now behind me and that is the best feeling in the world .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Start working on your Cisco CCNA certification.
This is the best career move you can make if you want to stay in IT; network admins/engineers are always in high demand, even in the bad economy.
I was in your shoes a few years ago and attended the hands-on Cisco Network Academy training courses at my local community college.
It was a tough cert especially since I know almost nothing about networking but worth every hour and penny spent.
I was offered a job as a network admin for $15k more a year before I had even taken the test.
My user support days are now behind me and that is the best feeling in the world.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28385921</id>
	<title>Don't stay in a carrier patch you don't like</title>
	<author>larsfh</author>
	<datestamp>1245352260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It sounds like you are in the beginning of your carrier, hence I can only say that it is way to soon to stay in a carrier path which you don't enjoy. We can become grumpy old men or women later on.</p><p>If you can cope financially, then I can only recommend taking a master degree in field which genuinely interests you. It will give you new opportunities. Maybe you can start with a couple of course if need the income or if you not entirely sure it is the right path.</p><p>My 2 cents<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... best of luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It sounds like you are in the beginning of your carrier , hence I can only say that it is way to soon to stay in a carrier path which you do n't enjoy .
We can become grumpy old men or women later on.If you can cope financially , then I can only recommend taking a master degree in field which genuinely interests you .
It will give you new opportunities .
Maybe you can start with a couple of course if need the income or if you not entirely sure it is the right path.My 2 cents ... best of luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It sounds like you are in the beginning of your carrier, hence I can only say that it is way to soon to stay in a carrier path which you don't enjoy.
We can become grumpy old men or women later on.If you can cope financially, then I can only recommend taking a master degree in field which genuinely interests you.
It will give you new opportunities.
Maybe you can start with a couple of course if need the income or if you not entirely sure it is the right path.My 2 cents ... best of luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370055</id>
	<title>Re:Ugh</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245264300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Graduate school and sex don't go hand in hand (no pun intended - yeah right...)<br>Nailing that hot 18 year old is a relatively rare occurrence. Also, with OP's money concern, staying on dorm - which increases the chances of sex - isn't a really good option - even with funding.<br>What he should do is try to do work and classes, maybe just one or two a sem. It is a lot of work (I'm a full time grad student) and may take 2.5 to 3 years (less if he does summer/winter sessions as well).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Graduate school and sex do n't go hand in hand ( no pun intended - yeah right... ) Nailing that hot 18 year old is a relatively rare occurrence .
Also , with OP 's money concern , staying on dorm - which increases the chances of sex - is n't a really good option - even with funding.What he should do is try to do work and classes , maybe just one or two a sem .
It is a lot of work ( I 'm a full time grad student ) and may take 2.5 to 3 years ( less if he does summer/winter sessions as well ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Graduate school and sex don't go hand in hand (no pun intended - yeah right...)Nailing that hot 18 year old is a relatively rare occurrence.
Also, with OP's money concern, staying on dorm - which increases the chances of sex - isn't a really good option - even with funding.What he should do is try to do work and classes, maybe just one or two a sem.
It is a lot of work (I'm a full time grad student) and may take 2.5 to 3 years (less if he does summer/winter sessions as well).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369673</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369773</id>
	<title>Not all Master's degrees are made equal</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245261060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It depends on where you're thinking of getting a degree from.  If you can get into a good program, it can help you jump the fence from "IT" over to "software development," where the grass is greener and the pagers quieter.  (This is not to say that software development is never frustrating or never involves dealing with idiots, but from your complaints it definitely seems like something you'd enjoy more.)</p><p>Staying home and learning technologies is great, and may even be more helpful on the job than what you'd learn in that Master's program, but it definitely isn't as helpful on your resume.  Go get a degree, bust your ass to get good grades, and then start applying to software/technology companies where you'll be helping to provide a product or service rather than helping other people provide one.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It depends on where you 're thinking of getting a degree from .
If you can get into a good program , it can help you jump the fence from " IT " over to " software development , " where the grass is greener and the pagers quieter .
( This is not to say that software development is never frustrating or never involves dealing with idiots , but from your complaints it definitely seems like something you 'd enjoy more .
) Staying home and learning technologies is great , and may even be more helpful on the job than what you 'd learn in that Master 's program , but it definitely is n't as helpful on your resume .
Go get a degree , bust your ass to get good grades , and then start applying to software/technology companies where you 'll be helping to provide a product or service rather than helping other people provide one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It depends on where you're thinking of getting a degree from.
If you can get into a good program, it can help you jump the fence from "IT" over to "software development," where the grass is greener and the pagers quieter.
(This is not to say that software development is never frustrating or never involves dealing with idiots, but from your complaints it definitely seems like something you'd enjoy more.
)Staying home and learning technologies is great, and may even be more helpful on the job than what you'd learn in that Master's program, but it definitely isn't as helpful on your resume.
Go get a degree, bust your ass to get good grades, and then start applying to software/technology companies where you'll be helping to provide a product or service rather than helping other people provide one.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374687</id>
	<title>Re:work at a university while going there</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245342720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Word of advice, however. Avoid Washington State. They're one of the states who has just decided that the correct reaction to the current budget shortcomings caused by ludicrous spending and widespread unemployment should be addressed by cutting all funding to higher education. As a result, getting a student job will be exceptionally difficult during the next 2-3 years, and getting a state job will most likely require chloroforming somebody who already has the job and shoving them in a closet.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Word of advice , however .
Avoid Washington State .
They 're one of the states who has just decided that the correct reaction to the current budget shortcomings caused by ludicrous spending and widespread unemployment should be addressed by cutting all funding to higher education .
As a result , getting a student job will be exceptionally difficult during the next 2-3 years , and getting a state job will most likely require chloroforming somebody who already has the job and shoving them in a closet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Word of advice, however.
Avoid Washington State.
They're one of the states who has just decided that the correct reaction to the current budget shortcomings caused by ludicrous spending and widespread unemployment should be addressed by cutting all funding to higher education.
As a result, getting a student job will be exceptionally difficult during the next 2-3 years, and getting a state job will most likely require chloroforming somebody who already has the job and shoving them in a closet.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369797</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369615</id>
	<title>go for it</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245259740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>go for it man, on free time study and go higher. don't stay there if your not happy. good luck</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>go for it man , on free time study and go higher .
do n't stay there if your not happy .
good luck</tokentext>
<sentencetext>go for it man, on free time study and go higher.
don't stay there if your not happy.
good luck</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370243</id>
	<title>No point</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245267180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is no point in going back to school.  The coursework is always outdated, hell, they teach Java.</p><p>If you're serious about learning programming, either do it yourself or go on a quick course to get you started.  Start coding, and ask questions on some programming forum somewhere.  Find out if there are vacancies in your own company.  Failing that, try to join a small company - the responsibility on you will be much higher, the pay will be lower, and you'll get to learn much more.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is no point in going back to school .
The coursework is always outdated , hell , they teach Java.If you 're serious about learning programming , either do it yourself or go on a quick course to get you started .
Start coding , and ask questions on some programming forum somewhere .
Find out if there are vacancies in your own company .
Failing that , try to join a small company - the responsibility on you will be much higher , the pay will be lower , and you 'll get to learn much more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is no point in going back to school.
The coursework is always outdated, hell, they teach Java.If you're serious about learning programming, either do it yourself or go on a quick course to get you started.
Start coding, and ask questions on some programming forum somewhere.
Find out if there are vacancies in your own company.
Failing that, try to join a small company - the responsibility on you will be much higher, the pay will be lower, and you'll get to learn much more.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28376881</id>
	<title>Writing good scripts stands out.</title>
	<author>droidsURlooking4</author>
	<datestamp>1245351240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I would add that as you begin to learn unix, start right away learning how to write shell scripts. You can spend a long time learning all the unix tools (which is great and you should), but never really learn to script. As an admin, your abilities will be exponentially better if you can interact with scripts &amp; at a certain point you will have to. It's a lot more than simply being able to automate (yourself out of) a job. Shell scripts are where the lines begin to blur between programming &amp; memorizing commands really well. Also, no matter what unix you use, you will end up compiling lots of software that someone else wrote. You need to be able to understand what it is doing, how to tweek it &amp; understand what's going on when you (try to) compile. Otherwise you can spend countless hours trying to understand why the f*^\%king library doesn't work and unresolved dependencies, &amp;c.. only to end up out on a dark corner of a dead thread on some message board alone in quiet desperation as no one in space can hear you scream.. Oh! sorry. Yeah. Learn to script.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would add that as you begin to learn unix , start right away learning how to write shell scripts .
You can spend a long time learning all the unix tools ( which is great and you should ) , but never really learn to script .
As an admin , your abilities will be exponentially better if you can interact with scripts &amp; at a certain point you will have to .
It 's a lot more than simply being able to automate ( yourself out of ) a job .
Shell scripts are where the lines begin to blur between programming &amp; memorizing commands really well .
Also , no matter what unix you use , you will end up compiling lots of software that someone else wrote .
You need to be able to understand what it is doing , how to tweek it &amp; understand what 's going on when you ( try to ) compile .
Otherwise you can spend countless hours trying to understand why the f * ^ \ % king library does n't work and unresolved dependencies , &amp;c.. only to end up out on a dark corner of a dead thread on some message board alone in quiet desperation as no one in space can hear you scream.. Oh ! sorry .
Yeah. Learn to script .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would add that as you begin to learn unix, start right away learning how to write shell scripts.
You can spend a long time learning all the unix tools (which is great and you should), but never really learn to script.
As an admin, your abilities will be exponentially better if you can interact with scripts &amp; at a certain point you will have to.
It's a lot more than simply being able to automate (yourself out of) a job.
Shell scripts are where the lines begin to blur between programming &amp; memorizing commands really well.
Also, no matter what unix you use, you will end up compiling lots of software that someone else wrote.
You need to be able to understand what it is doing, how to tweek it &amp; understand what's going on when you (try to) compile.
Otherwise you can spend countless hours trying to understand why the f*^\%king library doesn't work and unresolved dependencies, &amp;c.. only to end up out on a dark corner of a dead thread on some message board alone in quiet desperation as no one in space can hear you scream.. Oh! sorry.
Yeah. Learn to script.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369667</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369797</id>
	<title>work at a university while going there</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245261300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>you could go back to school &amp; work at the university while you're there. Generally, the IT Departments at universities are pretty big and they give you a good idea of anything you're going to encounter. At my university when someone shows initiative and they're competent and not a douche they pretty much always get the chance to prove themselves - ymmv, but I get the impression that quite a few universities are like this.</p><p>If you get on as a student, that's cool, part time, focus on school, show some initiative and try to get a full time job</p><p>If you get on as a full timer - awesome for you - most universities offer pretty good benefits, a lot of them include stuff like tuition wavers (full or partial - either way, you're going to end up paying less.)</p><p>and finally, working at a university IT department doesn't necessarily mean being in a support role -</p><p>our it department has an application development group, a services group (support), a project management group, a system administration/network admin group, a business group that handles contracts &amp; such with other departments/companies, a research computing group (super computers), a dedicated security group, an administration group (payroll), and an HR group. Of those, sysadmins, services, and app devs have to do support. Everyone else is only rarely customer facing. The likelihood that you're going to get into the non-support groups right away is pretty slim, but movement has a tendency to be really fluid.</p><p>In case you didn't get the main point of this - the important thing is showing initiative. Show that you're interested in doing something new and interesting - show it by talking to people who do it already and trying to shadow them. Work with your bosses to get involved in projects, do things to get noticed. =)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>you could go back to school &amp; work at the university while you 're there .
Generally , the IT Departments at universities are pretty big and they give you a good idea of anything you 're going to encounter .
At my university when someone shows initiative and they 're competent and not a douche they pretty much always get the chance to prove themselves - ymmv , but I get the impression that quite a few universities are like this.If you get on as a student , that 's cool , part time , focus on school , show some initiative and try to get a full time jobIf you get on as a full timer - awesome for you - most universities offer pretty good benefits , a lot of them include stuff like tuition wavers ( full or partial - either way , you 're going to end up paying less .
) and finally , working at a university IT department does n't necessarily mean being in a support role -our it department has an application development group , a services group ( support ) , a project management group , a system administration/network admin group , a business group that handles contracts &amp; such with other departments/companies , a research computing group ( super computers ) , a dedicated security group , an administration group ( payroll ) , and an HR group .
Of those , sysadmins , services , and app devs have to do support .
Everyone else is only rarely customer facing .
The likelihood that you 're going to get into the non-support groups right away is pretty slim , but movement has a tendency to be really fluid.In case you did n't get the main point of this - the important thing is showing initiative .
Show that you 're interested in doing something new and interesting - show it by talking to people who do it already and trying to shadow them .
Work with your bosses to get involved in projects , do things to get noticed .
= )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>you could go back to school &amp; work at the university while you're there.
Generally, the IT Departments at universities are pretty big and they give you a good idea of anything you're going to encounter.
At my university when someone shows initiative and they're competent and not a douche they pretty much always get the chance to prove themselves - ymmv, but I get the impression that quite a few universities are like this.If you get on as a student, that's cool, part time, focus on school, show some initiative and try to get a full time jobIf you get on as a full timer - awesome for you - most universities offer pretty good benefits, a lot of them include stuff like tuition wavers (full or partial - either way, you're going to end up paying less.
)and finally, working at a university IT department doesn't necessarily mean being in a support role -our it department has an application development group, a services group (support), a project management group, a system administration/network admin group, a business group that handles contracts &amp; such with other departments/companies, a research computing group (super computers), a dedicated security group, an administration group (payroll), and an HR group.
Of those, sysadmins, services, and app devs have to do support.
Everyone else is only rarely customer facing.
The likelihood that you're going to get into the non-support groups right away is pretty slim, but movement has a tendency to be really fluid.In case you didn't get the main point of this - the important thing is showing initiative.
Show that you're interested in doing something new and interesting - show it by talking to people who do it already and trying to shadow them.
Work with your bosses to get involved in projects, do things to get noticed.
=)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369601</id>
	<title>Typo in summary?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245259560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But probably not.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But probably not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But probably not.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371795</id>
	<title>Welcome to the Hamster's wheel</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245326460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can get your master's, which assumes you've already got your BS.  It won't make any difference.  True, college accolades are very much part of the pay-to-play game when you talk to HR.  The reality is that you need to pay your dues.  If you're a year out of college, you probably don't even know how to talk to suits.  They don't want to hear about macros and VBA code.  They want a button to click.  Even if that button is clearly labeled, it will be your fault when they get it wrong anyway.</p><p>Your first mistake was coming to Slashdot for answers.  About 2/3 of the responders here are the same animals; second generation wealth who pull strings and pedal influence for a living.  You'll get nothing but a big, fat, stinking lie from them.  You work for a Lawyer's office, yes?  You probably don't even report to an IT professional as a department head, right?  You'll be at arm's length until they know that you will take a bullet for them AND you better be a true believer and convince them that you don't think of yourself as an accomplice in crime.</p><p>Now, I'm not expecting you to believe me.  After all, you're pondering more expensive education without any guarantee of  ROI.  You're second generation money too, right?  The next big step in paying your dues is to get out of the easy money for dressing nice and being to work on time and start freelancing or being a one man department in a small business.  That means that buck stops with you.  You come in at 2:00 AM to restart the server.  You fix the scripts that didn't run when they should have.  You rebuild the crashed server, ASAP.</p><p>In a nutshell, you sound like you like IT but you don't bring enough proven accountability to the table to be given more authority.  That's up to you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You can get your master 's , which assumes you 've already got your BS .
It wo n't make any difference .
True , college accolades are very much part of the pay-to-play game when you talk to HR .
The reality is that you need to pay your dues .
If you 're a year out of college , you probably do n't even know how to talk to suits .
They do n't want to hear about macros and VBA code .
They want a button to click .
Even if that button is clearly labeled , it will be your fault when they get it wrong anyway.Your first mistake was coming to Slashdot for answers .
About 2/3 of the responders here are the same animals ; second generation wealth who pull strings and pedal influence for a living .
You 'll get nothing but a big , fat , stinking lie from them .
You work for a Lawyer 's office , yes ?
You probably do n't even report to an IT professional as a department head , right ?
You 'll be at arm 's length until they know that you will take a bullet for them AND you better be a true believer and convince them that you do n't think of yourself as an accomplice in crime.Now , I 'm not expecting you to believe me .
After all , you 're pondering more expensive education without any guarantee of ROI .
You 're second generation money too , right ?
The next big step in paying your dues is to get out of the easy money for dressing nice and being to work on time and start freelancing or being a one man department in a small business .
That means that buck stops with you .
You come in at 2 : 00 AM to restart the server .
You fix the scripts that did n't run when they should have .
You rebuild the crashed server , ASAP.In a nutshell , you sound like you like IT but you do n't bring enough proven accountability to the table to be given more authority .
That 's up to you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can get your master's, which assumes you've already got your BS.
It won't make any difference.
True, college accolades are very much part of the pay-to-play game when you talk to HR.
The reality is that you need to pay your dues.
If you're a year out of college, you probably don't even know how to talk to suits.
They don't want to hear about macros and VBA code.
They want a button to click.
Even if that button is clearly labeled, it will be your fault when they get it wrong anyway.Your first mistake was coming to Slashdot for answers.
About 2/3 of the responders here are the same animals; second generation wealth who pull strings and pedal influence for a living.
You'll get nothing but a big, fat, stinking lie from them.
You work for a Lawyer's office, yes?
You probably don't even report to an IT professional as a department head, right?
You'll be at arm's length until they know that you will take a bullet for them AND you better be a true believer and convince them that you don't think of yourself as an accomplice in crime.Now, I'm not expecting you to believe me.
After all, you're pondering more expensive education without any guarantee of  ROI.
You're second generation money too, right?
The next big step in paying your dues is to get out of the easy money for dressing nice and being to work on time and start freelancing or being a one man department in a small business.
That means that buck stops with you.
You come in at 2:00 AM to restart the server.
You fix the scripts that didn't run when they should have.
You rebuild the crashed server, ASAP.In a nutshell, you sound like you like IT but you don't bring enough proven accountability to the table to be given more authority.
That's up to you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370391</id>
	<title>Hopefully...</title>
	<author>vorlich</author>
	<datestamp>1245355680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>you kept all the boxes and packaging material that you originally came in. Wrap yourself back up and put yourself back in the box. Then return it to the manufacturer and include a note telling them that your volume control is broken and that you are rather too  self-involved to be a human being.</htmltext>
<tokenext>you kept all the boxes and packaging material that you originally came in .
Wrap yourself back up and put yourself back in the box .
Then return it to the manufacturer and include a note telling them that your volume control is broken and that you are rather too self-involved to be a human being .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>you kept all the boxes and packaging material that you originally came in.
Wrap yourself back up and put yourself back in the box.
Then return it to the manufacturer and include a note telling them that your volume control is broken and that you are rather too  self-involved to be a human being.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372099</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Col. Panic</author>
	<datestamp>1245329700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>he works at a lawfirm. they are probably still running wordperfect 4.2 on windows me</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>he works at a lawfirm .
they are probably still running wordperfect 4.2 on windows me</tokentext>
<sentencetext>he works at a lawfirm.
they are probably still running wordperfect 4.2 on windows me</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369807</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28376451</id>
	<title>Forget taking the shit........go for the cream!!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245349560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think you answered your own question:  "Is formal education a good avenue, or would I better off moving back home, getting a mindless but low-stress job, and teaching myself technologies in my free time?"<br>Yes and yes.  Education gets you in the door.  "Tinkering" shows that you can actually implement something as opposed to regurgitating back some non-real world theory b.s..  Look at some of the most successful people in the world...........did they take some special magical class to get where they are?  Hell no!  They figured things out for themselves.  You do not have to sit in a classroom and have some teacher cram data down your throat.  You do not need to hide your face in books.  If you are interested in "blah" then go learn "blah" via internet searches, books, other people, etc....  If you don't like the hole you are in then get out.  You are the captain of your ship........start charting your course!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think you answered your own question : " Is formal education a good avenue , or would I better off moving back home , getting a mindless but low-stress job , and teaching myself technologies in my free time ?
" Yes and yes .
Education gets you in the door .
" Tinkering " shows that you can actually implement something as opposed to regurgitating back some non-real world theory b.s.. Look at some of the most successful people in the world...........did they take some special magical class to get where they are ?
Hell no !
They figured things out for themselves .
You do not have to sit in a classroom and have some teacher cram data down your throat .
You do not need to hide your face in books .
If you are interested in " blah " then go learn " blah " via internet searches , books , other people , etc.... If you do n't like the hole you are in then get out .
You are the captain of your ship........start charting your course ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think you answered your own question:  "Is formal education a good avenue, or would I better off moving back home, getting a mindless but low-stress job, and teaching myself technologies in my free time?
"Yes and yes.
Education gets you in the door.
"Tinkering" shows that you can actually implement something as opposed to regurgitating back some non-real world theory b.s..  Look at some of the most successful people in the world...........did they take some special magical class to get where they are?
Hell no!
They figured things out for themselves.
You do not have to sit in a classroom and have some teacher cram data down your throat.
You do not need to hide your face in books.
If you are interested in "blah" then go learn "blah" via internet searches, books, other people, etc....  If you don't like the hole you are in then get out.
You are the captain of your ship........start charting your course!!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372911</id>
	<title>hmm</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245334980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I was in your position back in the day, I bought 4 cheap computers (no vmware back then)  and essentially taught myself IT.  I networked them, installed Netware, various versions of window, and some Linux flavors.  I then broke them and tried to fix them.  It was a great learning experience and within about 4-5 months I had practical, hands on experience with the operating systems.  I also picked up a CCNA kit off ebay for $2000 (which can now be had for a couple hundred) consisting of a switch and a few routers and played with those also.  I started my own company on the side, did a little bit of freelance consulting, and that was the ticket out of helpdesk.</p><p>My suggestion would be to specialize.  There are many "jacks of all trades" out there (myself included, to a certain degree) but if you want to stay in IT I'd recommend specializing in a certain area (Microsoft, Unix, development, cisco, etc etc).  From my experiences, a formal education in anything IT related will mean nothing.  Most managers look for certifications and experience.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was in your position back in the day , I bought 4 cheap computers ( no vmware back then ) and essentially taught myself IT .
I networked them , installed Netware , various versions of window , and some Linux flavors .
I then broke them and tried to fix them .
It was a great learning experience and within about 4-5 months I had practical , hands on experience with the operating systems .
I also picked up a CCNA kit off ebay for $ 2000 ( which can now be had for a couple hundred ) consisting of a switch and a few routers and played with those also .
I started my own company on the side , did a little bit of freelance consulting , and that was the ticket out of helpdesk.My suggestion would be to specialize .
There are many " jacks of all trades " out there ( myself included , to a certain degree ) but if you want to stay in IT I 'd recommend specializing in a certain area ( Microsoft , Unix , development , cisco , etc etc ) .
From my experiences , a formal education in anything IT related will mean nothing .
Most managers look for certifications and experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was in your position back in the day, I bought 4 cheap computers (no vmware back then)  and essentially taught myself IT.
I networked them, installed Netware, various versions of window, and some Linux flavors.
I then broke them and tried to fix them.
It was a great learning experience and within about 4-5 months I had practical, hands on experience with the operating systems.
I also picked up a CCNA kit off ebay for $2000 (which can now be had for a couple hundred) consisting of a switch and a few routers and played with those also.
I started my own company on the side, did a little bit of freelance consulting, and that was the ticket out of helpdesk.My suggestion would be to specialize.
There are many "jacks of all trades" out there (myself included, to a certain degree) but if you want to stay in IT I'd recommend specializing in a certain area (Microsoft, Unix, development, cisco, etc etc).
From my experiences, a formal education in anything IT related will mean nothing.
Most managers look for certifications and experience.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28401463</id>
	<title>experience is a hard road</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245509880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>AC here..  I hate to break it to you guys but a college degree to me is an EGO shield..  I work with a bunch of college pukes and they all run from hard work..<br>hard work is the only way to get experience and to weather the storm of end user psychotic behavior.<br>You need to learn how to handle these nutjubs just like a cop on a domestic disturbance call..</p><p>And to all the egoistical IT people I say fuck you!!   I've worked on programming problems, M$ workarounds on impossible<br>issues, etc..   All the while I have some 150 dollar an hour asshole on the other end of the phone that could'nt check if a keyboard was plugged in..</p><p>I've outdone and outsmarted all the ego maniacal assholes I've had to go to war with in my 15 year career because I have valuable experience, PERIOD..</p><p>Yes I am college educated but the only way I learned properly in IT was through self teaching.  Not being in some lecture hall with an egotistical moron<br>who can't hack it in the real world..   Please spare me the loopholes out of hard work, it's depressing and yes the job trends are controlled by<br>big business, not us which doesn't say much about IT people influence in the industry..</p><p>And to those who cry of outsourcing..   Go to the blog sites and point out the security flaws these outsourcing places put in the code..<br>Uncover the thieves and dishonesty in outsourcing..  Call your congress reps and tell them outsourcing personal data is a matter of<br>national security because it directly effects the taxpayer!!!   Deter it!!!  fight for your jobs, this is one way to get the<br>word out, use the internet for your benefit not for the fat bastard CEO or the greedy manager of a call center or programming firm<br>that is not of your geographical location!!!  Domestic jobs are your right but in this climate you have to fight and fight hard!!<br>If businesses did'nt outsource there would be more jobs for us and not all of them are easy, sometimes making<br>money takes some suffering in this world.. get used to it..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>AC here.. I hate to break it to you guys but a college degree to me is an EGO shield.. I work with a bunch of college pukes and they all run from hard work..hard work is the only way to get experience and to weather the storm of end user psychotic behavior.You need to learn how to handle these nutjubs just like a cop on a domestic disturbance call..And to all the egoistical IT people I say fuck you ! !
I 've worked on programming problems , M $ workarounds on impossibleissues , etc.. All the while I have some 150 dollar an hour asshole on the other end of the phone that could'nt check if a keyboard was plugged in..I 've outdone and outsmarted all the ego maniacal assholes I 've had to go to war with in my 15 year career because I have valuable experience , PERIOD..Yes I am college educated but the only way I learned properly in IT was through self teaching .
Not being in some lecture hall with an egotistical moronwho ca n't hack it in the real world.. Please spare me the loopholes out of hard work , it 's depressing and yes the job trends are controlled bybig business , not us which does n't say much about IT people influence in the industry..And to those who cry of outsourcing.. Go to the blog sites and point out the security flaws these outsourcing places put in the code..Uncover the thieves and dishonesty in outsourcing.. Call your congress reps and tell them outsourcing personal data is a matter ofnational security because it directly effects the taxpayer ! ! !
Deter it ! ! !
fight for your jobs , this is one way to get theword out , use the internet for your benefit not for the fat bastard CEO or the greedy manager of a call center or programming firmthat is not of your geographical location ! ! !
Domestic jobs are your right but in this climate you have to fight and fight hard !
! If businesses did'nt outsource there would be more jobs for us and not all of them are easy , sometimes makingmoney takes some suffering in this world.. get used to it. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>AC here..  I hate to break it to you guys but a college degree to me is an EGO shield..  I work with a bunch of college pukes and they all run from hard work..hard work is the only way to get experience and to weather the storm of end user psychotic behavior.You need to learn how to handle these nutjubs just like a cop on a domestic disturbance call..And to all the egoistical IT people I say fuck you!!
I've worked on programming problems, M$ workarounds on impossibleissues, etc..   All the while I have some 150 dollar an hour asshole on the other end of the phone that could'nt check if a keyboard was plugged in..I've outdone and outsmarted all the ego maniacal assholes I've had to go to war with in my 15 year career because I have valuable experience, PERIOD..Yes I am college educated but the only way I learned properly in IT was through self teaching.
Not being in some lecture hall with an egotistical moronwho can't hack it in the real world..   Please spare me the loopholes out of hard work, it's depressing and yes the job trends are controlled bybig business, not us which doesn't say much about IT people influence in the industry..And to those who cry of outsourcing..   Go to the blog sites and point out the security flaws these outsourcing places put in the code..Uncover the thieves and dishonesty in outsourcing..  Call your congress reps and tell them outsourcing personal data is a matter ofnational security because it directly effects the taxpayer!!!
Deter it!!!
fight for your jobs, this is one way to get theword out, use the internet for your benefit not for the fat bastard CEO or the greedy manager of a call center or programming firmthat is not of your geographical location!!!
Domestic jobs are your right but in this climate you have to fight and fight hard!
!If businesses did'nt outsource there would be more jobs for us and not all of them are easy, sometimes makingmoney takes some suffering in this world.. get used to it..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373675</id>
	<title>Screw going back to school</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1245338460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>make contacts in the industry you are interested in, and focus on the specific details of the job.<br>SOcial networking isn't a new thing, and it works.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>make contacts in the industry you are interested in , and focus on the specific details of the job.SOcial networking is n't a new thing , and it works .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>make contacts in the industry you are interested in, and focus on the specific details of the job.SOcial networking isn't a new thing, and it works.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371881</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>4e617474</author>
	<datestamp>1245327600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Um. If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook is your job. Your work isn't being interrupted every five minutes, but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.</p></div></blockquote><p>There are as many different sets of roles for helpdesk employee as there are helpdesks.  I work at a helpdesk and it is very much an interruption to my job if someone comes to me with any of the more mundane issues the desk as a whole handles.  Analyzing trouble tickets for trend analysis, developing workarounds to new defects, trying to automate those workarounds so that we don't have 800 sites all calling us about the same thing, updating the knowledge base, evaluating new hardware and software releases (yes, it's some other department's job to do that first, but they like to bury things in 50-page release notes where people have to call the helpdesk to accomplish something basic, forgetting that that's the short definition of "defect"), writing database front-ends so that we don't have to have the frontline poking around in places we'd rather they wouldn't, and I can't even begin to describe the variety of conference calls I manage to get roped into.  Even in the frontline of a generic helpdesk at a non-technology outfit he could easily have one set of responsibilities that involves someone running up to him and telling him to drop everything, and another that involves having something engaging, stimulating, and remotely resembling why he got into technology in the first place that he's being asked to drop.  Oh, and RTF summary again - do you really think that web developers, dba's, and database architects get asked literally every five minutes to handle something stupid and boring without ever getting a few hours to sink their teeth into a task?</p><blockquote><div><p>IT is a support function</p></div></blockquote><p>Um, no.  The people who design and implement the things that later get supported are also working in IT.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Um .
If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook is your job .
Your work is n't being interrupted every five minutes , but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.There are as many different sets of roles for helpdesk employee as there are helpdesks .
I work at a helpdesk and it is very much an interruption to my job if someone comes to me with any of the more mundane issues the desk as a whole handles .
Analyzing trouble tickets for trend analysis , developing workarounds to new defects , trying to automate those workarounds so that we do n't have 800 sites all calling us about the same thing , updating the knowledge base , evaluating new hardware and software releases ( yes , it 's some other department 's job to do that first , but they like to bury things in 50-page release notes where people have to call the helpdesk to accomplish something basic , forgetting that that 's the short definition of " defect " ) , writing database front-ends so that we do n't have to have the frontline poking around in places we 'd rather they would n't , and I ca n't even begin to describe the variety of conference calls I manage to get roped into .
Even in the frontline of a generic helpdesk at a non-technology outfit he could easily have one set of responsibilities that involves someone running up to him and telling him to drop everything , and another that involves having something engaging , stimulating , and remotely resembling why he got into technology in the first place that he 's being asked to drop .
Oh , and RTF summary again - do you really think that web developers , dba 's , and database architects get asked literally every five minutes to handle something stupid and boring without ever getting a few hours to sink their teeth into a task ? IT is a support functionUm , no .
The people who design and implement the things that later get supported are also working in IT .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Um.
If you are on the helpdesk - unjamming printers and unfreezing outlook is your job.
Your work isn't being interrupted every five minutes, but rather you are being called on to do your job every five minutes.There are as many different sets of roles for helpdesk employee as there are helpdesks.
I work at a helpdesk and it is very much an interruption to my job if someone comes to me with any of the more mundane issues the desk as a whole handles.
Analyzing trouble tickets for trend analysis, developing workarounds to new defects, trying to automate those workarounds so that we don't have 800 sites all calling us about the same thing, updating the knowledge base, evaluating new hardware and software releases (yes, it's some other department's job to do that first, but they like to bury things in 50-page release notes where people have to call the helpdesk to accomplish something basic, forgetting that that's the short definition of "defect"), writing database front-ends so that we don't have to have the frontline poking around in places we'd rather they wouldn't, and I can't even begin to describe the variety of conference calls I manage to get roped into.
Even in the frontline of a generic helpdesk at a non-technology outfit he could easily have one set of responsibilities that involves someone running up to him and telling him to drop everything, and another that involves having something engaging, stimulating, and remotely resembling why he got into technology in the first place that he's being asked to drop.
Oh, and RTF summary again - do you really think that web developers, dba's, and database architects get asked literally every five minutes to handle something stupid and boring without ever getting a few hours to sink their teeth into a task?IT is a support functionUm, no.
The people who design and implement the things that later get supported are also working in IT.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369725</id>
	<title>Define what your job should be</title>
	<author>servognome</author>
	<datestamp>1245260580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I'd like to remain in IT, but in less of a front-line role where I can actually get some work done without being interrupted every five minutes by a jamming printer or frozen instance of Outlook.</p></div></blockquote><p>You work at a help desk, so it seems your job is getting in the way of whatever you prefer to work at.  From your description it looks like you want to move into a managerial role of technical decision making.  You can accomplish this by championing projects that you prefer to work on, or starting your own company.  All an advanced degree will get you is a different entry-level position, where you'll still be interrupted every five minutes by something.<br>At some point you'll need to show independent leadership to get your preferred kind of job.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd like to remain in IT , but in less of a front-line role where I can actually get some work done without being interrupted every five minutes by a jamming printer or frozen instance of Outlook.You work at a help desk , so it seems your job is getting in the way of whatever you prefer to work at .
From your description it looks like you want to move into a managerial role of technical decision making .
You can accomplish this by championing projects that you prefer to work on , or starting your own company .
All an advanced degree will get you is a different entry-level position , where you 'll still be interrupted every five minutes by something.At some point you 'll need to show independent leadership to get your preferred kind of job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd like to remain in IT, but in less of a front-line role where I can actually get some work done without being interrupted every five minutes by a jamming printer or frozen instance of Outlook.You work at a help desk, so it seems your job is getting in the way of whatever you prefer to work at.
From your description it looks like you want to move into a managerial role of technical decision making.
You can accomplish this by championing projects that you prefer to work on, or starting your own company.
All an advanced degree will get you is a different entry-level position, where you'll still be interrupted every five minutes by something.At some point you'll need to show independent leadership to get your preferred kind of job.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373843</id>
	<title>Use your skills in other areas</title>
	<author>barnyjr</author>
	<datestamp>1245339300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Working my way through college, I realized that I had no desire to be stuck in a cubicle all day long but my passion was still computer science.  So I decided to use my skills in something more exciting.  IT / CS skills apply in a lot more unconventional fields than you might realize.</p><p>I chose to become a forensic computer examiner for a medium-sized law enforcement agency.  I get to use my passion in a job that offers lots of excitement as well.  What other job can you spend weeks analyzing bits and pieces of a suspect's hard drive and then go kick a door in and make an arrest?  To each his own, but this is how I made myself happy in my career.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Working my way through college , I realized that I had no desire to be stuck in a cubicle all day long but my passion was still computer science .
So I decided to use my skills in something more exciting .
IT / CS skills apply in a lot more unconventional fields than you might realize.I chose to become a forensic computer examiner for a medium-sized law enforcement agency .
I get to use my passion in a job that offers lots of excitement as well .
What other job can you spend weeks analyzing bits and pieces of a suspect 's hard drive and then go kick a door in and make an arrest ?
To each his own , but this is how I made myself happy in my career .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Working my way through college, I realized that I had no desire to be stuck in a cubicle all day long but my passion was still computer science.
So I decided to use my skills in something more exciting.
IT / CS skills apply in a lot more unconventional fields than you might realize.I chose to become a forensic computer examiner for a medium-sized law enforcement agency.
I get to use my passion in a job that offers lots of excitement as well.
What other job can you spend weeks analyzing bits and pieces of a suspect's hard drive and then go kick a door in and make an arrest?
To each his own, but this is how I made myself happy in my career.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370583</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245357120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Great post, thanks for sharing your thoughts!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Great post , thanks for sharing your thoughts !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Great post, thanks for sharing your thoughts!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369801</id>
	<title>Big fish, small pond</title>
	<author>lymond01</author>
	<datestamp>1245261300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>With a 200 person law firm, you're probably the lowest of 2 or 3 people.  Find a position somewhere where you're the jack-of-all-trades -- you do the tech support, server management, web development, purchasing, etc.  You'll work long hours because the tech support prevents focused work on the other things, so be prepared.  But you'll learn alot if you're driven and you can finally have "Server Administration" or "Web Design" on your resume.  It won't get you into Google, but experience may get you a junior admin job.</p><p>To find this entry level everything job, look at 100 person or less businesses or colleges.  Colleges will be easier as they aren't money driven.</p><p>Alternatively, in this job market, go to school.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>With a 200 person law firm , you 're probably the lowest of 2 or 3 people .
Find a position somewhere where you 're the jack-of-all-trades -- you do the tech support , server management , web development , purchasing , etc .
You 'll work long hours because the tech support prevents focused work on the other things , so be prepared .
But you 'll learn alot if you 're driven and you can finally have " Server Administration " or " Web Design " on your resume .
It wo n't get you into Google , but experience may get you a junior admin job.To find this entry level everything job , look at 100 person or less businesses or colleges .
Colleges will be easier as they are n't money driven.Alternatively , in this job market , go to school .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>With a 200 person law firm, you're probably the lowest of 2 or 3 people.
Find a position somewhere where you're the jack-of-all-trades -- you do the tech support, server management, web development, purchasing, etc.
You'll work long hours because the tech support prevents focused work on the other things, so be prepared.
But you'll learn alot if you're driven and you can finally have "Server Administration" or "Web Design" on your resume.
It won't get you into Google, but experience may get you a junior admin job.To find this entry level everything job, look at 100 person or less businesses or colleges.
Colleges will be easier as they aren't money driven.Alternatively, in this job market, go to school.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28380021</id>
	<title>Don't do it unless you love the subject</title>
	<author>JustNiz</author>
	<datestamp>1245317280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;&gt;&gt; I've been considering a full-time Masters degree in a specialized Computer Science area such as databases or Web development, but I don't know if the financial cost and the loss of a year's income and experience can justify it.</p><p>Unfortuately the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.com era produced an effect where everybody and their dog got a quickie CS Masters and got programming work just because they saw Steve Jobs and Bill Gates driving Ferraris. Not because they actually had any interest in, or even real clue about computers. As soon as the economy levelled out they were the first people to get fired or bail out and go back to being a realtor or whatever. Also because there were so many of them and the usual scenario was that they had no actual technical skills, it permanently damaged the whole environment and credability of good developers that actually could do the job.</p><p>Now the economy is bad again, as a hiring manager I'm seeing the same pattern of monkies that actually think adding 9 month CS masters to their humanities (or whatever) degree will make them able to play equally with (or even be superior to) Engineers-by-nature having a 3 or 4 year CS Batchelors degree and multiple years of relevant work experience.</p><p>My answer is if the only interest you have in any subject is because of the money you MIGHT earn from it, then don't waste your life. Anyway you're never gonna actually make it in a field you don't otherwise give a crap about.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; &gt; &gt; I 've been considering a full-time Masters degree in a specialized Computer Science area such as databases or Web development , but I do n't know if the financial cost and the loss of a year 's income and experience can justify it.Unfortuately the .com era produced an effect where everybody and their dog got a quickie CS Masters and got programming work just because they saw Steve Jobs and Bill Gates driving Ferraris .
Not because they actually had any interest in , or even real clue about computers .
As soon as the economy levelled out they were the first people to get fired or bail out and go back to being a realtor or whatever .
Also because there were so many of them and the usual scenario was that they had no actual technical skills , it permanently damaged the whole environment and credability of good developers that actually could do the job.Now the economy is bad again , as a hiring manager I 'm seeing the same pattern of monkies that actually think adding 9 month CS masters to their humanities ( or whatever ) degree will make them able to play equally with ( or even be superior to ) Engineers-by-nature having a 3 or 4 year CS Batchelors degree and multiple years of relevant work experience.My answer is if the only interest you have in any subject is because of the money you MIGHT earn from it , then do n't waste your life .
Anyway you 're never gon na actually make it in a field you do n't otherwise give a crap about .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;&gt;&gt; I've been considering a full-time Masters degree in a specialized Computer Science area such as databases or Web development, but I don't know if the financial cost and the loss of a year's income and experience can justify it.Unfortuately the .com era produced an effect where everybody and their dog got a quickie CS Masters and got programming work just because they saw Steve Jobs and Bill Gates driving Ferraris.
Not because they actually had any interest in, or even real clue about computers.
As soon as the economy levelled out they were the first people to get fired or bail out and go back to being a realtor or whatever.
Also because there were so many of them and the usual scenario was that they had no actual technical skills, it permanently damaged the whole environment and credability of good developers that actually could do the job.Now the economy is bad again, as a hiring manager I'm seeing the same pattern of monkies that actually think adding 9 month CS masters to their humanities (or whatever) degree will make them able to play equally with (or even be superior to) Engineers-by-nature having a 3 or 4 year CS Batchelors degree and multiple years of relevant work experience.My answer is if the only interest you have in any subject is because of the money you MIGHT earn from it, then don't waste your life.
Anyway you're never gonna actually make it in a field you don't otherwise give a crap about.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369989</id>
	<title>Run like hell.  Or suck it.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245263520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>srsly Pom Pom: you is better off as an English Literature major than where you is.  There is no up from there.  Do \_anything\_ else.</p><p>(I am making illiterate-person noise because I suspect I am speaking to an illiterate person.  In case I'm not: no, really, the job you are working can only do damage to your resume.  Quit immediately and do \_anything\_ else.  Go back to school if you've a mind; hell, go work at Wal-Mart if that's your only other choice.  Wal-Mart on a resume is forgivable, especially at your (implied) age.  Helpdesk on your resume begets more helpdesk on your resume and \_nothing\_ else.  Start running now.  I am not kidding.)</p><p>(captcha: "reindeer")</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>srsly Pom Pom : you is better off as an English Literature major than where you is .
There is no up from there .
Do \ _anything \ _ else .
( I am making illiterate-person noise because I suspect I am speaking to an illiterate person .
In case I 'm not : no , really , the job you are working can only do damage to your resume .
Quit immediately and do \ _anything \ _ else .
Go back to school if you 've a mind ; hell , go work at Wal-Mart if that 's your only other choice .
Wal-Mart on a resume is forgivable , especially at your ( implied ) age .
Helpdesk on your resume begets more helpdesk on your resume and \ _nothing \ _ else .
Start running now .
I am not kidding .
) ( captcha : " reindeer " )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>srsly Pom Pom: you is better off as an English Literature major than where you is.
There is no up from there.
Do \_anything\_ else.
(I am making illiterate-person noise because I suspect I am speaking to an illiterate person.
In case I'm not: no, really, the job you are working can only do damage to your resume.
Quit immediately and do \_anything\_ else.
Go back to school if you've a mind; hell, go work at Wal-Mart if that's your only other choice.
Wal-Mart on a resume is forgivable, especially at your (implied) age.
Helpdesk on your resume begets more helpdesk on your resume and \_nothing\_ else.
Start running now.
I am not kidding.
)(captcha: "reindeer")</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372943</id>
	<title>BS in CS</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245335160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you have a BS in CS and are working in support, theres probably a reason.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you have a BS in CS and are working in support , theres probably a reason .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you have a BS in CS and are working in support, theres probably a reason.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369893</id>
	<title>Make your job redundant</title>
	<author>amirulbahr</author>
	<datestamp>1245262320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The best way to get a promotion is to make your job redundant, or to get ready to start training your replacement.  You employer will be grateful and should reward, but even if they don't then your prospects on the job market will be much improved.

<p>Oh, and the next best tip is to learn a Unix (or Linux) some other poster said above.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The best way to get a promotion is to make your job redundant , or to get ready to start training your replacement .
You employer will be grateful and should reward , but even if they do n't then your prospects on the job market will be much improved .
Oh , and the next best tip is to learn a Unix ( or Linux ) some other poster said above .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The best way to get a promotion is to make your job redundant, or to get ready to start training your replacement.
You employer will be grateful and should reward, but even if they don't then your prospects on the job market will be much improved.
Oh, and the next best tip is to learn a Unix (or Linux) some other poster said above.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369759</id>
	<title>go for the degree</title>
	<author>jrozzi</author>
	<datestamp>1245260880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've had many technical support jobs, helping employees and friends and family. I ended up in your position and didn't know how much longer I could handle it.

What I did is got my B.S. in computer science at a good school and now my full time job is working for myself doing web development. You will not go wrong learning databases and web development and if you get good at it you will be able to work anywhere, anytime, and basically for whoever you want. Also, we all know that web applications and "cloud computing" is the new face of the Internet and still in its infant stages and has plenty of room to grow.

Having your degree in computer science can land you other types of jobs doing productive work (even if you decide you don't like web development) and you get a great sense of accomplishment for the type of work you choose to do (possibilities are pretty much limitless).

Hope this helps.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've had many technical support jobs , helping employees and friends and family .
I ended up in your position and did n't know how much longer I could handle it .
What I did is got my B.S .
in computer science at a good school and now my full time job is working for myself doing web development .
You will not go wrong learning databases and web development and if you get good at it you will be able to work anywhere , anytime , and basically for whoever you want .
Also , we all know that web applications and " cloud computing " is the new face of the Internet and still in its infant stages and has plenty of room to grow .
Having your degree in computer science can land you other types of jobs doing productive work ( even if you decide you do n't like web development ) and you get a great sense of accomplishment for the type of work you choose to do ( possibilities are pretty much limitless ) .
Hope this helps .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've had many technical support jobs, helping employees and friends and family.
I ended up in your position and didn't know how much longer I could handle it.
What I did is got my B.S.
in computer science at a good school and now my full time job is working for myself doing web development.
You will not go wrong learning databases and web development and if you get good at it you will be able to work anywhere, anytime, and basically for whoever you want.
Also, we all know that web applications and "cloud computing" is the new face of the Internet and still in its infant stages and has plenty of room to grow.
Having your degree in computer science can land you other types of jobs doing productive work (even if you decide you don't like web development) and you get a great sense of accomplishment for the type of work you choose to do (possibilities are pretty much limitless).
Hope this helps.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370513</id>
	<title>With every decision you make...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245356460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...you should ask yourself "Is this GOOD for the company?"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...you should ask yourself " Is this GOOD for the company ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...you should ask yourself "Is this GOOD for the company?
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373399</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>dkleinsc</author>
	<datestamp>1245337260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That was really well written. Might I suggest a more poetic way of saying the same thing:</p><p>Work is love made visible<br>And if you cannot work with love but only<br>with distaste, it is better that you should<br>leave your work and sit at the gate of the<br>temple and take alms of those who work with joy.<br>For if you bake bread with indifference<br>you bake a bitter bread that feeds but half<br>man's hunger<br>And if you grudge the crushing of the<br>grapes, your grudge distills a poison in the wine<br>And if you sing though as angels,and<br>love not the singing, you muffle man's ears<br>to the voices of the day and the voices of<br>the night.</p><p>-Kahlil Gibran</p><p>(The rest of this particular bit can be found here: <a href="http://www.sfheart.com/work.html" title="sfheart.com">http://www.sfheart.com/work.html</a> [sfheart.com])</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That was really well written .
Might I suggest a more poetic way of saying the same thing : Work is love made visibleAnd if you can not work with love but onlywith distaste , it is better that you shouldleave your work and sit at the gate of thetemple and take alms of those who work with joy.For if you bake bread with indifferenceyou bake a bitter bread that feeds but halfman 's hungerAnd if you grudge the crushing of thegrapes , your grudge distills a poison in the wineAnd if you sing though as angels,andlove not the singing , you muffle man 's earsto the voices of the day and the voices ofthe night.-Kahlil Gibran ( The rest of this particular bit can be found here : http : //www.sfheart.com/work.html [ sfheart.com ] )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That was really well written.
Might I suggest a more poetic way of saying the same thing:Work is love made visibleAnd if you cannot work with love but onlywith distaste, it is better that you shouldleave your work and sit at the gate of thetemple and take alms of those who work with joy.For if you bake bread with indifferenceyou bake a bitter bread that feeds but halfman's hungerAnd if you grudge the crushing of thegrapes, your grudge distills a poison in the wineAnd if you sing though as angels,andlove not the singing, you muffle man's earsto the voices of the day and the voices ofthe night.-Kahlil Gibran(The rest of this particular bit can be found here: http://www.sfheart.com/work.html [sfheart.com])</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369825</id>
	<title>Depends on what you want to do</title>
	<author>\_Hellfire\_</author>
	<datestamp>1245261480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It really depends - do you want to do a technical role? Or do you want to move into management. Here's assuming you want to stay in IT.</p><p>If you want to do a technical role, I'd second a few of the suggestions here that you should download a 'nix, install some tools and learn everything there is to know about that particular technology. Bonus points for picking something that can be carted cross-platform (SQL, XML etc).</p><p>Then you can start applying for junior roles in other companies "We require a junior DBA working on MS-SQL and Oracle...". If you're good enough, you won't stay junior for long. The software is out there and it's all free - start learning it!</p><p>If you want to move into management, you generally have two career paths - managing technology or managing people. Managing technology requires you to learn about things like data centre operations, Capacity Management, Availability Management, cost accounting and charging etc etc. All these things go into making the technology side hum ie "the hardware is working properly, and we know we can pay for it now, and in the future". Companies are screaming for this type of management as they realise that the old reactive model of bodging it up to get it working now, and panic buying stuff they don't really need isn't working. They're looking for people who can formulate an IT strategy and make it work in the real world.</p><p>If you want to manage people, then start looking at leadership books, guides and education. Do you want to manage a helpdesk (didn't think so). Maybe the relevant institute of management has a short course that you could do.</p><p>I made it past the helpdesk. I started off after high school building PCs and crawling under desks with CAT-5 between my teeth. I did that for 5 years, then was a sysadmin for a web hosting company for a year, then a service desk operator for 2, then a process specialist for another year. I've been in my current role as a process manager for just over a year making 6 figures.</p><p>It can be done, but you need to differentiate yourself. Lots of guys can fix a printer - but to really add value, figure out which companies are looking to extend themselves from a reactive environment to a proactive customer focussed one, and jump on board.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It really depends - do you want to do a technical role ?
Or do you want to move into management .
Here 's assuming you want to stay in IT.If you want to do a technical role , I 'd second a few of the suggestions here that you should download a 'nix , install some tools and learn everything there is to know about that particular technology .
Bonus points for picking something that can be carted cross-platform ( SQL , XML etc ) .Then you can start applying for junior roles in other companies " We require a junior DBA working on MS-SQL and Oracle... " .
If you 're good enough , you wo n't stay junior for long .
The software is out there and it 's all free - start learning it ! If you want to move into management , you generally have two career paths - managing technology or managing people .
Managing technology requires you to learn about things like data centre operations , Capacity Management , Availability Management , cost accounting and charging etc etc .
All these things go into making the technology side hum ie " the hardware is working properly , and we know we can pay for it now , and in the future " .
Companies are screaming for this type of management as they realise that the old reactive model of bodging it up to get it working now , and panic buying stuff they do n't really need is n't working .
They 're looking for people who can formulate an IT strategy and make it work in the real world.If you want to manage people , then start looking at leadership books , guides and education .
Do you want to manage a helpdesk ( did n't think so ) .
Maybe the relevant institute of management has a short course that you could do.I made it past the helpdesk .
I started off after high school building PCs and crawling under desks with CAT-5 between my teeth .
I did that for 5 years , then was a sysadmin for a web hosting company for a year , then a service desk operator for 2 , then a process specialist for another year .
I 've been in my current role as a process manager for just over a year making 6 figures.It can be done , but you need to differentiate yourself .
Lots of guys can fix a printer - but to really add value , figure out which companies are looking to extend themselves from a reactive environment to a proactive customer focussed one , and jump on board .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It really depends - do you want to do a technical role?
Or do you want to move into management.
Here's assuming you want to stay in IT.If you want to do a technical role, I'd second a few of the suggestions here that you should download a 'nix, install some tools and learn everything there is to know about that particular technology.
Bonus points for picking something that can be carted cross-platform (SQL, XML etc).Then you can start applying for junior roles in other companies "We require a junior DBA working on MS-SQL and Oracle...".
If you're good enough, you won't stay junior for long.
The software is out there and it's all free - start learning it!If you want to move into management, you generally have two career paths - managing technology or managing people.
Managing technology requires you to learn about things like data centre operations, Capacity Management, Availability Management, cost accounting and charging etc etc.
All these things go into making the technology side hum ie "the hardware is working properly, and we know we can pay for it now, and in the future".
Companies are screaming for this type of management as they realise that the old reactive model of bodging it up to get it working now, and panic buying stuff they don't really need isn't working.
They're looking for people who can formulate an IT strategy and make it work in the real world.If you want to manage people, then start looking at leadership books, guides and education.
Do you want to manage a helpdesk (didn't think so).
Maybe the relevant institute of management has a short course that you could do.I made it past the helpdesk.
I started off after high school building PCs and crawling under desks with CAT-5 between my teeth.
I did that for 5 years, then was a sysadmin for a web hosting company for a year, then a service desk operator for 2, then a process specialist for another year.
I've been in my current role as a process manager for just over a year making 6 figures.It can be done, but you need to differentiate yourself.
Lots of guys can fix a printer - but to really add value, figure out which companies are looking to extend themselves from a reactive environment to a proactive customer focussed one, and jump on board.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372979</id>
	<title>Take the time...</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1245335340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Think yourself how lucky you are to still have a job, while you are working on a small personal project at home.<br>Remember the times when all those people at work had problems using Outlook because it wasn't configured right.<br>As you develop a little script that fully reconfigures Outlook to include personal Archiving and a whole slew of other things<br>that seem to be repeated at your job as requests people ask from you, then you will see the light.</p><p>If you have to do something more then 3 times, script it.<br>Then when you see something needing to be done more then 10 times, publish your script open source and let your work<br>(careful of proprietary rights here though)...see that the script you created is posted on a site with lots of traffic.</p><p>Not only does it look like you are a part of another community (the dev forums), but it shows you keep up to date, and help keep others do the same....as well as think of innovative ways to improve performance at work...this goes a long way!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Think yourself how lucky you are to still have a job , while you are working on a small personal project at home.Remember the times when all those people at work had problems using Outlook because it was n't configured right.As you develop a little script that fully reconfigures Outlook to include personal Archiving and a whole slew of other thingsthat seem to be repeated at your job as requests people ask from you , then you will see the light.If you have to do something more then 3 times , script it.Then when you see something needing to be done more then 10 times , publish your script open source and let your work ( careful of proprietary rights here though ) ...see that the script you created is posted on a site with lots of traffic.Not only does it look like you are a part of another community ( the dev forums ) , but it shows you keep up to date , and help keep others do the same....as well as think of innovative ways to improve performance at work...this goes a long way !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Think yourself how lucky you are to still have a job, while you are working on a small personal project at home.Remember the times when all those people at work had problems using Outlook because it wasn't configured right.As you develop a little script that fully reconfigures Outlook to include personal Archiving and a whole slew of other thingsthat seem to be repeated at your job as requests people ask from you, then you will see the light.If you have to do something more then 3 times, script it.Then when you see something needing to be done more then 10 times, publish your script open source and let your work(careful of proprietary rights here though)...see that the script you created is posted on a site with lots of traffic.Not only does it look like you are a part of another community (the dev forums), but it shows you keep up to date, and help keep others do the same....as well as think of innovative ways to improve performance at work...this goes a long way!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370789</id>
	<title>How about the traditional role?</title>
	<author>RMH101</author>
	<datestamp>1245316020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>...First line to get your chops/experience, 2nd line to start differentiating yourself from the tier 1 guys and do something more interesting, specialise in 3rd line, then go off into whatever area you want with your CV fattened a little.<br>
there's a danger if you've been on the helldesk for a couple of years that you'll just stay there - those with ambition and low boredom threshold will go off and do something else.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...First line to get your chops/experience , 2nd line to start differentiating yourself from the tier 1 guys and do something more interesting , specialise in 3rd line , then go off into whatever area you want with your CV fattened a little .
there 's a danger if you 've been on the helldesk for a couple of years that you 'll just stay there - those with ambition and low boredom threshold will go off and do something else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...First line to get your chops/experience, 2nd line to start differentiating yourself from the tier 1 guys and do something more interesting, specialise in 3rd line, then go off into whatever area you want with your CV fattened a little.
there's a danger if you've been on the helldesk for a couple of years that you'll just stay there - those with ambition and low boredom threshold will go off and do something else.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372717</id>
	<title>Solve the problem, not the symptom</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245334020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The Help Desk is the IT equivalent of starting in the mail room. It's really not all that bad, you are gaining valuable experience on solving a wide range of problems. If you are bored and frustrated because the same problems keeping coming up, then solve the problem, not treat the symptom. Why is Outlook hanging? Why is the printer jamming (cheap paper?)?<br>Who would you promote, someone who works all weekend to upgrade software on all the computers, or someone who spends a week implementing a software management system to handle upgrades? Both solved the same problem, but the one who took longer will be able to do the next upgrade within an hour.<br>20 years ago I started on the Help Desk in a 200 computer legal department. Within a year I was off the help desk.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The Help Desk is the IT equivalent of starting in the mail room .
It 's really not all that bad , you are gaining valuable experience on solving a wide range of problems .
If you are bored and frustrated because the same problems keeping coming up , then solve the problem , not treat the symptom .
Why is Outlook hanging ?
Why is the printer jamming ( cheap paper ?
) ? Who would you promote , someone who works all weekend to upgrade software on all the computers , or someone who spends a week implementing a software management system to handle upgrades ?
Both solved the same problem , but the one who took longer will be able to do the next upgrade within an hour.20 years ago I started on the Help Desk in a 200 computer legal department .
Within a year I was off the help desk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Help Desk is the IT equivalent of starting in the mail room.
It's really not all that bad, you are gaining valuable experience on solving a wide range of problems.
If you are bored and frustrated because the same problems keeping coming up, then solve the problem, not treat the symptom.
Why is Outlook hanging?
Why is the printer jamming (cheap paper?
)?Who would you promote, someone who works all weekend to upgrade software on all the computers, or someone who spends a week implementing a software management system to handle upgrades?
Both solved the same problem, but the one who took longer will be able to do the next upgrade within an hour.20 years ago I started on the Help Desk in a 200 computer legal department.
Within a year I was off the help desk.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371753</id>
	<title>Some simple truths</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245326040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The below are generalizations, but are generally true.</p><p>1.  In the IT field, education is good.  But in most cases experience is even more important.  Companies like to know what you can do, not how many slips of paper you have.  If you had an M.S. in something IT-related but only had helpdesk experience on your resume it would look a bit funny (from the infrastructure side of things, not as much from the programming side of things).</p><p>2.  If you've been on the helpdesk for a year, you're not going anywhere.  Helpdesk is an entry level job.  Most people start there and only stay long enough to demonstrate competency, then they get promoted or switch jobs and move up.  There are some people who are helpdesk lifers.  They either don't have the minimal amount of skills required to move up, or they really, really like working the helpdesk.  I've met examples of both.  If you don't move up fairly quickly, you run the risk of looking like a helpdesk lifer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The below are generalizations , but are generally true.1 .
In the IT field , education is good .
But in most cases experience is even more important .
Companies like to know what you can do , not how many slips of paper you have .
If you had an M.S .
in something IT-related but only had helpdesk experience on your resume it would look a bit funny ( from the infrastructure side of things , not as much from the programming side of things ) .2 .
If you 've been on the helpdesk for a year , you 're not going anywhere .
Helpdesk is an entry level job .
Most people start there and only stay long enough to demonstrate competency , then they get promoted or switch jobs and move up .
There are some people who are helpdesk lifers .
They either do n't have the minimal amount of skills required to move up , or they really , really like working the helpdesk .
I 've met examples of both .
If you do n't move up fairly quickly , you run the risk of looking like a helpdesk lifer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The below are generalizations, but are generally true.1.
In the IT field, education is good.
But in most cases experience is even more important.
Companies like to know what you can do, not how many slips of paper you have.
If you had an M.S.
in something IT-related but only had helpdesk experience on your resume it would look a bit funny (from the infrastructure side of things, not as much from the programming side of things).2.
If you've been on the helpdesk for a year, you're not going anywhere.
Helpdesk is an entry level job.
Most people start there and only stay long enough to demonstrate competency, then they get promoted or switch jobs and move up.
There are some people who are helpdesk lifers.
They either don't have the minimal amount of skills required to move up, or they really, really like working the helpdesk.
I've met examples of both.
If you don't move up fairly quickly, you run the risk of looking like a helpdesk lifer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28375645</id>
	<title>Do 50/50</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245346560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have been programming computers for 10 years as a free lancer.  Presently I reside in Los Angeles and am feeling the pain of the weak job market.  I went to school for computer science and did not complete the degree - I was recruited before completion.  I find that most people look at my experience and less my education.  The education has been a benefit indirectly.  The fact that I can do boolean algrebra is a good skill for thinking but not earning money.  I would look at taking some courses without the goal of a degree, and at the same time acquire useful skills: databases, a handful of popular languages.  That is something you can do while monkeying your present desk.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have been programming computers for 10 years as a free lancer .
Presently I reside in Los Angeles and am feeling the pain of the weak job market .
I went to school for computer science and did not complete the degree - I was recruited before completion .
I find that most people look at my experience and less my education .
The education has been a benefit indirectly .
The fact that I can do boolean algrebra is a good skill for thinking but not earning money .
I would look at taking some courses without the goal of a degree , and at the same time acquire useful skills : databases , a handful of popular languages .
That is something you can do while monkeying your present desk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have been programming computers for 10 years as a free lancer.
Presently I reside in Los Angeles and am feeling the pain of the weak job market.
I went to school for computer science and did not complete the degree - I was recruited before completion.
I find that most people look at my experience and less my education.
The education has been a benefit indirectly.
The fact that I can do boolean algrebra is a good skill for thinking but not earning money.
I would look at taking some courses without the goal of a degree, and at the same time acquire useful skills: databases, a handful of popular languages.
That is something you can do while monkeying your present desk.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372953</id>
	<title>Re:That is your job.</title>
	<author>asylumx</author>
	<datestamp>1245335220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Great post, +10 insightful!  I'm not anywhere near the helpdesk and your post made me think differently about my career path!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Great post , + 10 insightful !
I 'm not anywhere near the helpdesk and your post made me think differently about my career path !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Great post, +10 insightful!
I'm not anywhere near the helpdesk and your post made me think differently about my career path!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369667</id>
	<title>Learn a UNIX</title>
	<author>jsimon12</author>
	<datestamp>1245260040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you really want to stay in IT and don't want to learn a programming language learn a UNIX. Even half way decent UNIX admins are few and far between, I know a number of companies hiring.</p><p>Just download a BSD, Linux distro or Open Solaris and use that for your desktop at home. Tinker, read and study and you can get a job out of helpdesk.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you really want to stay in IT and do n't want to learn a programming language learn a UNIX .
Even half way decent UNIX admins are few and far between , I know a number of companies hiring.Just download a BSD , Linux distro or Open Solaris and use that for your desktop at home .
Tinker , read and study and you can get a job out of helpdesk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you really want to stay in IT and don't want to learn a programming language learn a UNIX.
Even half way decent UNIX admins are few and far between, I know a number of companies hiring.Just download a BSD, Linux distro or Open Solaris and use that for your desktop at home.
Tinker, read and study and you can get a job out of helpdesk.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369925</id>
	<title>Seriously....apply for non-helpdesk jobs.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245262800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Apply for *every* non-helpdesk job that you think you might be able to do without totally f*cking it up.... as any job you don't apply for, you are 100\% guaranteed not to get.</p><p>Have at least 5-10 applications in-progress at any time, more if you can cope with the paperwork.  Applying for 50 or more jobs before you get one is OK, but if you apply for 50 jobs without ever getting short-listed, then you are doing something seriously wrong.</p><p>Keep a complete folio of all applications/CVs/resume's you send out, and try to improve it every time you send one out..</p><p>Personalise it to every application, with cover letter, and emphasising your more-relevant skills:<br>
&nbsp; - If applying for a programming job, writing code as a hobby is more important than 10 years on a helpdesk.<br>
&nbsp; - If you are applying for a manager position in a help-desk-centre, being presentable, well spoken and worldly is more important that 10 years on the helpdesk phone.</p><p>Lieing about your skills, or stretching the truth a little can help too, but only if you have the ability to follow-through and learn about product X before such time as you are asked about it.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Apply for * every * non-helpdesk job that you think you might be able to do without totally f * cking it up.... as any job you do n't apply for , you are 100 \ % guaranteed not to get.Have at least 5-10 applications in-progress at any time , more if you can cope with the paperwork .
Applying for 50 or more jobs before you get one is OK , but if you apply for 50 jobs without ever getting short-listed , then you are doing something seriously wrong.Keep a complete folio of all applications/CVs/resume 's you send out , and try to improve it every time you send one out..Personalise it to every application , with cover letter , and emphasising your more-relevant skills :   - If applying for a programming job , writing code as a hobby is more important than 10 years on a helpdesk .
  - If you are applying for a manager position in a help-desk-centre , being presentable , well spoken and worldly is more important that 10 years on the helpdesk phone.Lieing about your skills , or stretching the truth a little can help too , but only if you have the ability to follow-through and learn about product X before such time as you are asked about it .
: - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Apply for *every* non-helpdesk job that you think you might be able to do without totally f*cking it up.... as any job you don't apply for, you are 100\% guaranteed not to get.Have at least 5-10 applications in-progress at any time, more if you can cope with the paperwork.
Applying for 50 or more jobs before you get one is OK, but if you apply for 50 jobs without ever getting short-listed, then you are doing something seriously wrong.Keep a complete folio of all applications/CVs/resume's you send out, and try to improve it every time you send one out..Personalise it to every application, with cover letter, and emphasising your more-relevant skills:
  - If applying for a programming job, writing code as a hobby is more important than 10 years on a helpdesk.
  - If you are applying for a manager position in a help-desk-centre, being presentable, well spoken and worldly is more important that 10 years on the helpdesk phone.Lieing about your skills, or stretching the truth a little can help too, but only if you have the ability to follow-through and learn about product X before such time as you are asked about it.
:-)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369677</id>
	<title>Huh</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245260160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not only is that job, but is it REALLY that hard to say "reboot your computer"?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not only is that job , but is it REALLY that hard to say " reboot your computer " ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not only is that job, but is it REALLY that hard to say "reboot your computer"?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369911</id>
	<title>it depends.  do you clock watch?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1245262620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, the Helpdesk sucks.  I started doing it 15 years ago at the school I went to making a whopping 7.50 an hour.  Within a year I was administrating systems on the campus.  Why?  Because I busted my ass.  An example, we had an old Vax that was crapping out and had to do an emergency upgrade to an Alpha server.  I stayed up the entire night with the Admins and learned.  I then cracked open the extremely dry manuals for VMS.  Always take the time of crisis and turn it into an opportunity.  If there is an Administrator who's going through a rough time, ask if you can watch / help.</p><p>Worst case, get some VM's set up and see if you can bogart some copies of various Microsoft titles off of TechNet, or set up your own linux box.  Talk to your boss and tell him that you want to learn and ask him to create an environment for you to learn and test new skills.  See if you have old Cisco equipment and learn how to configure it.  With google as your companion, you can learn to do many different tasks and use them as a foundation to grow upon.</p><p>If your boss is not able to create that environment, then maybe it is not a right fit.  I personally have taken marketing majors straight from college with no formal IT experience and flipped them into very good jobs as short as a year later.  I don't think of myself as anyone special, but if you don't have someone who is invested in your growth, then you should look somewhere else for employment.</p><p>If certifications are your thing, then study for them.  But please do yourself a favor and don't memorize the book, actually learn it.  In the past I have interviewed people with certifications, particularly Microsoft and wind up dancing circles around them in a tech interview because all they did was memorize.</p><p>And it also comes down to what I like to call a clock watcher.  I typically have three types of staff members.  1) The ones who are out the door by 5pm  2) The ones who will only stay when shit hits the fan and or have deadlines 3) The ones who are committed to learning as much as possible no matter what and will hang with me during a crisis to learn.  I can assure you that if you are in the first category, you should rethink your career..because it is obvious that this is something you don't love.</p><p>Lastly, I hate to break it to you, but even after working 15 years in IT, the CEO will call you and ask for help with his Blackberry because he doesn't have time to deal with the help desk.  It's the nature of the job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , the Helpdesk sucks .
I started doing it 15 years ago at the school I went to making a whopping 7.50 an hour .
Within a year I was administrating systems on the campus .
Why ? Because I busted my ass .
An example , we had an old Vax that was crapping out and had to do an emergency upgrade to an Alpha server .
I stayed up the entire night with the Admins and learned .
I then cracked open the extremely dry manuals for VMS .
Always take the time of crisis and turn it into an opportunity .
If there is an Administrator who 's going through a rough time , ask if you can watch / help.Worst case , get some VM 's set up and see if you can bogart some copies of various Microsoft titles off of TechNet , or set up your own linux box .
Talk to your boss and tell him that you want to learn and ask him to create an environment for you to learn and test new skills .
See if you have old Cisco equipment and learn how to configure it .
With google as your companion , you can learn to do many different tasks and use them as a foundation to grow upon.If your boss is not able to create that environment , then maybe it is not a right fit .
I personally have taken marketing majors straight from college with no formal IT experience and flipped them into very good jobs as short as a year later .
I do n't think of myself as anyone special , but if you do n't have someone who is invested in your growth , then you should look somewhere else for employment.If certifications are your thing , then study for them .
But please do yourself a favor and do n't memorize the book , actually learn it .
In the past I have interviewed people with certifications , particularly Microsoft and wind up dancing circles around them in a tech interview because all they did was memorize.And it also comes down to what I like to call a clock watcher .
I typically have three types of staff members .
1 ) The ones who are out the door by 5pm 2 ) The ones who will only stay when shit hits the fan and or have deadlines 3 ) The ones who are committed to learning as much as possible no matter what and will hang with me during a crisis to learn .
I can assure you that if you are in the first category , you should rethink your career..because it is obvious that this is something you do n't love.Lastly , I hate to break it to you , but even after working 15 years in IT , the CEO will call you and ask for help with his Blackberry because he does n't have time to deal with the help desk .
It 's the nature of the job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, the Helpdesk sucks.
I started doing it 15 years ago at the school I went to making a whopping 7.50 an hour.
Within a year I was administrating systems on the campus.
Why?  Because I busted my ass.
An example, we had an old Vax that was crapping out and had to do an emergency upgrade to an Alpha server.
I stayed up the entire night with the Admins and learned.
I then cracked open the extremely dry manuals for VMS.
Always take the time of crisis and turn it into an opportunity.
If there is an Administrator who's going through a rough time, ask if you can watch / help.Worst case, get some VM's set up and see if you can bogart some copies of various Microsoft titles off of TechNet, or set up your own linux box.
Talk to your boss and tell him that you want to learn and ask him to create an environment for you to learn and test new skills.
See if you have old Cisco equipment and learn how to configure it.
With google as your companion, you can learn to do many different tasks and use them as a foundation to grow upon.If your boss is not able to create that environment, then maybe it is not a right fit.
I personally have taken marketing majors straight from college with no formal IT experience and flipped them into very good jobs as short as a year later.
I don't think of myself as anyone special, but if you don't have someone who is invested in your growth, then you should look somewhere else for employment.If certifications are your thing, then study for them.
But please do yourself a favor and don't memorize the book, actually learn it.
In the past I have interviewed people with certifications, particularly Microsoft and wind up dancing circles around them in a tech interview because all they did was memorize.And it also comes down to what I like to call a clock watcher.
I typically have three types of staff members.
1) The ones who are out the door by 5pm  2) The ones who will only stay when shit hits the fan and or have deadlines 3) The ones who are committed to learning as much as possible no matter what and will hang with me during a crisis to learn.
I can assure you that if you are in the first category, you should rethink your career..because it is obvious that this is something you don't love.Lastly, I hate to break it to you, but even after working 15 years in IT, the CEO will call you and ask for help with his Blackberry because he doesn't have time to deal with the help desk.
It's the nature of the job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373819</id>
	<title>Re:School is for people who can't read</title>
	<author>holophrastic</author>
	<datestamp>1245339120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And not one employer, or client, cares about your opinions of Rice's Theorem.  All of that is to get you or keep you interested as a well-rounded student who may slide into a related sub-field.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And not one employer , or client , cares about your opinions of Rice 's Theorem .
All of that is to get you or keep you interested as a well-rounded student who may slide into a related sub-field .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And not one employer, or client, cares about your opinions of Rice's Theorem.
All of that is to get you or keep you interested as a well-rounded student who may slide into a related sub-field.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28371817</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28377307</id>
	<title>Get the Master's (with qualifiers)</title>
	<author>skinfaxi</author>
	<datestamp>1245352860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I was in a similar situation. I got accepted into a Master's program that offered assistantships. That meant I worked part time for them fixing computers for the college, they paid my tuition and a stipend. I wasn't getting rich but it was enough to scrape by on. You can also get student loans to make up any deficit, the interest rates are not bad right now (3\% ish).
<br> <br>
I learned a lot in the classes, and working in the assistantship. And I got a much better job when I got out 2 years later.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I was in a similar situation .
I got accepted into a Master 's program that offered assistantships .
That meant I worked part time for them fixing computers for the college , they paid my tuition and a stipend .
I was n't getting rich but it was enough to scrape by on .
You can also get student loans to make up any deficit , the interest rates are not bad right now ( 3 \ % ish ) .
I learned a lot in the classes , and working in the assistantship .
And I got a much better job when I got out 2 years later .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was in a similar situation.
I got accepted into a Master's program that offered assistantships.
That meant I worked part time for them fixing computers for the college, they paid my tuition and a stipend.
I wasn't getting rich but it was enough to scrape by on.
You can also get student loans to make up any deficit, the interest rates are not bad right now (3\% ish).
I learned a lot in the classes, and working in the assistantship.
And I got a much better job when I got out 2 years later.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374323</id>
	<title>Going sideways...</title>
	<author>Bobfrankly1</author>
	<datestamp>1245341220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are many good suggestions here, but you mentioned going sideways into another help desk. That *may* work for you. I worked in one form of a help desk, then transitioned to another, better paying support desk. 1.8 years later I'm doing server work, and the only calls I field are the ones that the help desk can't fix. If you're up against a wall, you can leave the building (go back to school) or walk alongside the wall until you find the door into the next room, and hope it has bags of cash. =D</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are many good suggestions here , but you mentioned going sideways into another help desk .
That * may * work for you .
I worked in one form of a help desk , then transitioned to another , better paying support desk .
1.8 years later I 'm doing server work , and the only calls I field are the ones that the help desk ca n't fix .
If you 're up against a wall , you can leave the building ( go back to school ) or walk alongside the wall until you find the door into the next room , and hope it has bags of cash .
= D</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are many good suggestions here, but you mentioned going sideways into another help desk.
That *may* work for you.
I worked in one form of a help desk, then transitioned to another, better paying support desk.
1.8 years later I'm doing server work, and the only calls I field are the ones that the help desk can't fix.
If you're up against a wall, you can leave the building (go back to school) or walk alongside the wall until you find the door into the next room, and hope it has bags of cash.
=D</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28374499</id>
	<title>2 years</title>
	<author>mujadaddy</author>
	<datestamp>1245341940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I got my MS and it took 2 years and a 1200 mile move to get a job.  I'm lazy, though.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I got my MS and it took 2 years and a 1200 mile move to get a job .
I 'm lazy , though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I got my MS and it took 2 years and a 1200 mile move to get a job.
I'm lazy, though.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28373413</id>
	<title>Find a job in a college</title>
	<author>rizzo420</author>
	<datestamp>1245337320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would suggest finding a job in a college. It'd be a lateral move, but you would be in a MUCH different environment. I would suggest finding a small college, too. The benefits are great. The pay may not be the best, but most of them offer free tuition. The other benefit is that you usually get to do a whole lot more than just simple support, though support is your main task.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would suggest finding a job in a college .
It 'd be a lateral move , but you would be in a MUCH different environment .
I would suggest finding a small college , too .
The benefits are great .
The pay may not be the best , but most of them offer free tuition .
The other benefit is that you usually get to do a whole lot more than just simple support , though support is your main task .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would suggest finding a job in a college.
It'd be a lateral move, but you would be in a MUCH different environment.
I would suggest finding a small college, too.
The benefits are great.
The pay may not be the best, but most of them offer free tuition.
The other benefit is that you usually get to do a whole lot more than just simple support, though support is your main task.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_17_2231247_10</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369931
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28385399
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_17_2231247_73</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370077
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_17_2231247_64</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369667
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28426425
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_17_2231247_87</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369603
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28372141
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_17_2231247_80</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28369605
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28370035
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_17_2231247.28377485
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
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