<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_06_09_151223</id>
	<title>One Fifth of World's Population Can't See Milky Way At Night</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1244562000000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>An anonymous reader writes with this excerpt from Cosmos Magazine: <i>"Light pollution has caused one-fifth of the world's population &mdash; mostly in Europe, Britain and the US &mdash; <a href="http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2797/one-fifth-us-have-lost-sight-milky-way">to lose their ability to see the Milky Way in the night sky</a>.
'The arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet's natural heritage,' said Connie Walker, and astronomer from the US National Optical Astronomy Observatory in Tucson, Arizona.
Yet 'more than one fifth of the world population, two thirds of the US population and one half of the European Union population have already lost naked eye visibility of the Milky Way.'"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>An anonymous reader writes with this excerpt from Cosmos Magazine : " Light pollution has caused one-fifth of the world 's population    mostly in Europe , Britain and the US    to lose their ability to see the Milky Way in the night sky .
'The arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet 's natural heritage, ' said Connie Walker , and astronomer from the US National Optical Astronomy Observatory in Tucson , Arizona .
Yet 'more than one fifth of the world population , two thirds of the US population and one half of the European Union population have already lost naked eye visibility of the Milky Way .
' "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An anonymous reader writes with this excerpt from Cosmos Magazine: "Light pollution has caused one-fifth of the world's population — mostly in Europe, Britain and the US — to lose their ability to see the Milky Way in the night sky.
'The arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet's natural heritage,' said Connie Walker, and astronomer from the US National Optical Astronomy Observatory in Tucson, Arizona.
Yet 'more than one fifth of the world population, two thirds of the US population and one half of the European Union population have already lost naked eye visibility of the Milky Way.
'"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28271513</id>
	<title>light pollution</title>
	<author>falconwolf</author>
	<datestamp>1244541480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>That aside, I don't see how any government can possibly take light pollution seriously. Too much investment to satisfy too small a group - who cares if it's world heritage.</i></p><p>Except it's not just astronomers that suffers from light pollution.  Animals suffer as well.  For instance sea turtles.  <a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?\_ob=ArticleURL&amp;\_udi=B6V5X-4W80CC4-1&amp;\_user=10&amp;\_rdoc=1&amp;\_fmt=&amp;\_orig=search&amp;\_sort=d&amp;view=c&amp;\_acct=C000050221&amp;\_version=1&amp;\_urlVersion=0&amp;\_userid=10&amp;md5=56c0fae63510c1683bc619c137c12b35" title="sciencedirect.com">Turtle hatchlings</a> [sciencedirect.com] mistake beach front lights as light being reflected from water.  Some in the US are concerned about the effects of net fishing wherein trawlers drag large nets which ensnares dolphins, ie the "Dolphin Safe" labels on some tuna cans, and turtles.  But light pollution can have as much a negative impact on for instance <a href="http://www.conservation.org/LEARN/SPECIES/PROFILES/TURTLES/SEA\_TURTLES/LEATHERBACK/Pages/threats.aspx" title="conservation.org">leatherback turtles</a> [conservation.org] as nets do.  There are many other species that are impacted by light pollution.</p><p>

Falcon</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That aside , I do n't see how any government can possibly take light pollution seriously .
Too much investment to satisfy too small a group - who cares if it 's world heritage.Except it 's not just astronomers that suffers from light pollution .
Animals suffer as well .
For instance sea turtles .
Turtle hatchlings [ sciencedirect.com ] mistake beach front lights as light being reflected from water .
Some in the US are concerned about the effects of net fishing wherein trawlers drag large nets which ensnares dolphins , ie the " Dolphin Safe " labels on some tuna cans , and turtles .
But light pollution can have as much a negative impact on for instance leatherback turtles [ conservation.org ] as nets do .
There are many other species that are impacted by light pollution .
Falcon</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That aside, I don't see how any government can possibly take light pollution seriously.
Too much investment to satisfy too small a group - who cares if it's world heritage.Except it's not just astronomers that suffers from light pollution.
Animals suffer as well.
For instance sea turtles.
Turtle hatchlings [sciencedirect.com] mistake beach front lights as light being reflected from water.
Some in the US are concerned about the effects of net fishing wherein trawlers drag large nets which ensnares dolphins, ie the "Dolphin Safe" labels on some tuna cans, and turtles.
But light pollution can have as much a negative impact on for instance leatherback turtles [conservation.org] as nets do.
There are many other species that are impacted by light pollution.
Falcon</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267005</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266497</id>
	<title>You don't even know you're missing it.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244565840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I live in Los Angeles.  One day I went up to Yosemite to hike Half-Dome. It's a long hike, so we started at 3 in the morning.  When we broke out of the trees, I looked up and shit my pants.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I live in Los Angeles .
One day I went up to Yosemite to hike Half-Dome .
It 's a long hike , so we started at 3 in the morning .
When we broke out of the trees , I looked up and shit my pants .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live in Los Angeles.
One day I went up to Yosemite to hike Half-Dome.
It's a long hike, so we started at 3 in the morning.
When we broke out of the trees, I looked up and shit my pants.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268109</id>
	<title>It's me!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244571540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>'The arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet's natural heritage,' said Connie Walker, and astronomer from the US National Optical Astronomy Observatory in Tucson, Arizona.</i></p><p>Hello! I am astronomer. I really did say that with Connie Walker, the night clean up girl.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>'The arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet 's natural heritage, ' said Connie Walker , and astronomer from the US National Optical Astronomy Observatory in Tucson , Arizona.Hello !
I am astronomer .
I really did say that with Connie Walker , the night clean up girl .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>'The arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet's natural heritage,' said Connie Walker, and astronomer from the US National Optical Astronomy Observatory in Tucson, Arizona.Hello!
I am astronomer.
I really did say that with Connie Walker, the night clean up girl.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266483</id>
	<title>Aren't we in the milkyway?</title>
	<author>jgtg32a</author>
	<datestamp>1244565780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Don't you just have to look up to see it?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't you just have to look up to see it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't you just have to look up to see it?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266847</id>
	<title>It's Not Global Warming!</title>
	<author>Greyfox</author>
	<datestamp>1244566860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Just turn off some damn lights and it'll come back! More towns and cities need to adopt regulations about this. Perhaps petition drives are in order...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just turn off some damn lights and it 'll come back !
More towns and cities need to adopt regulations about this .
Perhaps petition drives are in order.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just turn off some damn lights and it'll come back!
More towns and cities need to adopt regulations about this.
Perhaps petition drives are in order...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28275541</id>
	<title>never seen it</title>
	<author>kdemetter</author>
	<datestamp>1244570940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've never seen the Milky way with my own eyes ( only pictures ) , so i must be part of that 1/5</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've never seen the Milky way with my own eyes ( only pictures ) , so i must be part of that 1/5</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've never seen the Milky way with my own eyes ( only pictures ) , so i must be part of that 1/5</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267659</id>
	<title>It's wasted energy.</title>
	<author>PeterChenoweth</author>
	<datestamp>1244569680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Sure, when you compare light pollution to 'real' pollution, it seems like a trivial issue.  Who cares that you can't see the stars?  It's not like someone's going to get cancer or have mutant children because the sky is orange at night.  <br> <br>

But there is a meaningful environmental side to it - all of that light that's directed into the atmosphere is completely wasted energy.  Even the dark-sky crazies agree that night-time illumination is important, and that we can't have a world without streetlights and security lights.  But the point is that those lights should be designed to focus their lumens at their intended targets, not up into the air.  Think of billboards that have lights at the bottom pointing up to illuminate the sign.  Total waste of energy.  Lights directed properly will still light up that McDonalds billboard just as effectively, but use less power to do it and not spill so much light into the surrounding skies.  A win/win.  <br> <br>

I live in the rural midwest, so I guess I'm just a dumb redneck.  But honestly, I feel quite sorry for those that live in places where they can't see the stars.  I'm sure that to those that don't know what the Milky Way looks like, they just don't understand why those of us that *do* know what it looks like speak so highly of being able to see the stars.  Cities are great.  Full of options, people, and civilization.  But I wouldn't trade it for the ability to sneak out to the countryside on a cool, clear summer night with a blanket, a bottle of wine, and my significant other, to just lie back and just watch the universe march by.  If you've never experienced that, you have my sympathy.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure , when you compare light pollution to 'real ' pollution , it seems like a trivial issue .
Who cares that you ca n't see the stars ?
It 's not like someone 's going to get cancer or have mutant children because the sky is orange at night .
But there is a meaningful environmental side to it - all of that light that 's directed into the atmosphere is completely wasted energy .
Even the dark-sky crazies agree that night-time illumination is important , and that we ca n't have a world without streetlights and security lights .
But the point is that those lights should be designed to focus their lumens at their intended targets , not up into the air .
Think of billboards that have lights at the bottom pointing up to illuminate the sign .
Total waste of energy .
Lights directed properly will still light up that McDonalds billboard just as effectively , but use less power to do it and not spill so much light into the surrounding skies .
A win/win .
I live in the rural midwest , so I guess I 'm just a dumb redneck .
But honestly , I feel quite sorry for those that live in places where they ca n't see the stars .
I 'm sure that to those that do n't know what the Milky Way looks like , they just do n't understand why those of us that * do * know what it looks like speak so highly of being able to see the stars .
Cities are great .
Full of options , people , and civilization .
But I would n't trade it for the ability to sneak out to the countryside on a cool , clear summer night with a blanket , a bottle of wine , and my significant other , to just lie back and just watch the universe march by .
If you 've never experienced that , you have my sympathy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure, when you compare light pollution to 'real' pollution, it seems like a trivial issue.
Who cares that you can't see the stars?
It's not like someone's going to get cancer or have mutant children because the sky is orange at night.
But there is a meaningful environmental side to it - all of that light that's directed into the atmosphere is completely wasted energy.
Even the dark-sky crazies agree that night-time illumination is important, and that we can't have a world without streetlights and security lights.
But the point is that those lights should be designed to focus their lumens at their intended targets, not up into the air.
Think of billboards that have lights at the bottom pointing up to illuminate the sign.
Total waste of energy.
Lights directed properly will still light up that McDonalds billboard just as effectively, but use less power to do it and not spill so much light into the surrounding skies.
A win/win.
I live in the rural midwest, so I guess I'm just a dumb redneck.
But honestly, I feel quite sorry for those that live in places where they can't see the stars.
I'm sure that to those that don't know what the Milky Way looks like, they just don't understand why those of us that *do* know what it looks like speak so highly of being able to see the stars.
Cities are great.
Full of options, people, and civilization.
But I wouldn't trade it for the ability to sneak out to the countryside on a cool, clear summer night with a blanket, a bottle of wine, and my significant other, to just lie back and just watch the universe march by.
If you've never experienced that, you have my sympathy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267157</id>
	<title>naked eye?</title>
	<author>internerdj</author>
	<datestamp>1244567820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I can barely seen the moon with my naked eyes much less the stars.  Now if I put my glasses on...oh wait the article is about light pollution isn't it?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I can barely seen the moon with my naked eyes much less the stars .
Now if I put my glasses on...oh wait the article is about light pollution is n't it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can barely seen the moon with my naked eyes much less the stars.
Now if I put my glasses on...oh wait the article is about light pollution isn't it?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268017</id>
	<title>Unfortunate consequences of life</title>
	<author>Chazerizer</author>
	<datestamp>1244571240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>While it is a sad fact that you can't watch the night sky a lot of places (and it is - I remember taking a road trip from Chicago up to Wisconsin one night to watch a meteor shower), it seems to be an unfortunate necessity.  Here's an analogy for those who don't get the point.

If you've ever been camping, you know that if you want to stargaze, you have to wander away from the campfire.  If its a group of 5 or so people camping, its a small fire, and it doesn't take you long to meander away, look up in awe, and wander back.  Now increase your camp size.  Now its fifty people.  You have bigger fires, and probably more than one.  You have enough people that at least one fire is burning all night.  Increase size by another factor of ten and you find more fires.  Now you probably qualify as a community.  You probably have specialized fires for a blacksmith or other craftsman.  You likely have dozens of fires, a good many of which will burn throughout the night.  The distance you must walk increases proportionately.  Now we're going to make the jump.  With 10,000 times the residents of our hypothetical community, a large city would have 1000s of fires (now electric lights) to provide security.  At this point - one has to travel a significant distance to really get a good look at the sky (from downtown Chicago, the distance is approximately 80 miles if you're traveling north).

Yes it's sad - but in order to maintain dense civilizations that give us all the things that better the human condition, we must sacrifice some of those things.  And as others have pointed out, it's not as if those things are completely gone.  Take a bus or a train ride.  Drive out to the middle of nowhere.</htmltext>
<tokenext>While it is a sad fact that you ca n't watch the night sky a lot of places ( and it is - I remember taking a road trip from Chicago up to Wisconsin one night to watch a meteor shower ) , it seems to be an unfortunate necessity .
Here 's an analogy for those who do n't get the point .
If you 've ever been camping , you know that if you want to stargaze , you have to wander away from the campfire .
If its a group of 5 or so people camping , its a small fire , and it does n't take you long to meander away , look up in awe , and wander back .
Now increase your camp size .
Now its fifty people .
You have bigger fires , and probably more than one .
You have enough people that at least one fire is burning all night .
Increase size by another factor of ten and you find more fires .
Now you probably qualify as a community .
You probably have specialized fires for a blacksmith or other craftsman .
You likely have dozens of fires , a good many of which will burn throughout the night .
The distance you must walk increases proportionately .
Now we 're going to make the jump .
With 10,000 times the residents of our hypothetical community , a large city would have 1000s of fires ( now electric lights ) to provide security .
At this point - one has to travel a significant distance to really get a good look at the sky ( from downtown Chicago , the distance is approximately 80 miles if you 're traveling north ) .
Yes it 's sad - but in order to maintain dense civilizations that give us all the things that better the human condition , we must sacrifice some of those things .
And as others have pointed out , it 's not as if those things are completely gone .
Take a bus or a train ride .
Drive out to the middle of nowhere .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While it is a sad fact that you can't watch the night sky a lot of places (and it is - I remember taking a road trip from Chicago up to Wisconsin one night to watch a meteor shower), it seems to be an unfortunate necessity.
Here's an analogy for those who don't get the point.
If you've ever been camping, you know that if you want to stargaze, you have to wander away from the campfire.
If its a group of 5 or so people camping, its a small fire, and it doesn't take you long to meander away, look up in awe, and wander back.
Now increase your camp size.
Now its fifty people.
You have bigger fires, and probably more than one.
You have enough people that at least one fire is burning all night.
Increase size by another factor of ten and you find more fires.
Now you probably qualify as a community.
You probably have specialized fires for a blacksmith or other craftsman.
You likely have dozens of fires, a good many of which will burn throughout the night.
The distance you must walk increases proportionately.
Now we're going to make the jump.
With 10,000 times the residents of our hypothetical community, a large city would have 1000s of fires (now electric lights) to provide security.
At this point - one has to travel a significant distance to really get a good look at the sky (from downtown Chicago, the distance is approximately 80 miles if you're traveling north).
Yes it's sad - but in order to maintain dense civilizations that give us all the things that better the human condition, we must sacrifice some of those things.
And as others have pointed out, it's not as if those things are completely gone.
Take a bus or a train ride.
Drive out to the middle of nowhere.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266777</id>
	<title>This is sad</title>
	<author>Omnifarious</author>
	<datestamp>1244566620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I live in the city and don't drive.  It's been forever since I've seen the Milky Way and I'm rather sad about that.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-(  I don't really know how it can be solved, and I really do believe that this fact has a strongly negative effect on people's interest in space.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I live in the city and do n't drive .
It 's been forever since I 've seen the Milky Way and I 'm rather sad about that .
: - ( I do n't really know how it can be solved , and I really do believe that this fact has a strongly negative effect on people 's interest in space .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live in the city and don't drive.
It's been forever since I've seen the Milky Way and I'm rather sad about that.
:-(  I don't really know how it can be solved, and I really do believe that this fact has a strongly negative effect on people's interest in space.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267235</id>
	<title>Re:This is sad</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244568120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>:-( I don't really know how it can be solved</p></div></blockquote><p>
Move to a rural mountain top.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>: - ( I do n't really know how it can be solved Move to a rural mountain top .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>:-( I don't really know how it can be solved
Move to a rural mountain top.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269527</id>
	<title>Re:Uggg</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244576340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If I wasn't on the west coast of the US, I couldn't drive away from the cities. If you've seen the light pollution maps of the US, pretty much everything east of the Appalachians is under pretty heavy skyglow. Even in Washington where the skyglow isn't nearly as bad, it is completely possible to drive for over an hour on freeways into the mountains and still not be able to see the Milky Way some nights because of the glow from Seattle. And those are the regular 'dark sites' for the local astronomy club. A dense city can have a large impact on the area within a couple hundred miles around it. There are only a handful of places left in the US that have truly pristine skies, and I don't see that lasting through the next decade.</p><p>And I'd be just as worried about all the light disrupting our own biological rhythms as well as that of animals, as others have pointed out. So much life is built around the day/night cycle, you create problems when you remove the night part of that cycle. I know I actually had to revert back from the full spectrum lights so I would actually realize I am tired and should be going to sleep instead of under sleeping because I would feel awake longer.</p><p>I'd consider light pollution (and general overuse of lights at night) as one factor that is negatively impacting urban life and changing how people<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/can/ live without even considering the effect of not being able to see the stars. But being able to see the stars again is a bonus.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If I was n't on the west coast of the US , I could n't drive away from the cities .
If you 've seen the light pollution maps of the US , pretty much everything east of the Appalachians is under pretty heavy skyglow .
Even in Washington where the skyglow is n't nearly as bad , it is completely possible to drive for over an hour on freeways into the mountains and still not be able to see the Milky Way some nights because of the glow from Seattle .
And those are the regular 'dark sites ' for the local astronomy club .
A dense city can have a large impact on the area within a couple hundred miles around it .
There are only a handful of places left in the US that have truly pristine skies , and I do n't see that lasting through the next decade.And I 'd be just as worried about all the light disrupting our own biological rhythms as well as that of animals , as others have pointed out .
So much life is built around the day/night cycle , you create problems when you remove the night part of that cycle .
I know I actually had to revert back from the full spectrum lights so I would actually realize I am tired and should be going to sleep instead of under sleeping because I would feel awake longer.I 'd consider light pollution ( and general overuse of lights at night ) as one factor that is negatively impacting urban life and changing how people /can/ live without even considering the effect of not being able to see the stars .
But being able to see the stars again is a bonus .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I wasn't on the west coast of the US, I couldn't drive away from the cities.
If you've seen the light pollution maps of the US, pretty much everything east of the Appalachians is under pretty heavy skyglow.
Even in Washington where the skyglow isn't nearly as bad, it is completely possible to drive for over an hour on freeways into the mountains and still not be able to see the Milky Way some nights because of the glow from Seattle.
And those are the regular 'dark sites' for the local astronomy club.
A dense city can have a large impact on the area within a couple hundred miles around it.
There are only a handful of places left in the US that have truly pristine skies, and I don't see that lasting through the next decade.And I'd be just as worried about all the light disrupting our own biological rhythms as well as that of animals, as others have pointed out.
So much life is built around the day/night cycle, you create problems when you remove the night part of that cycle.
I know I actually had to revert back from the full spectrum lights so I would actually realize I am tired and should be going to sleep instead of under sleeping because I would feel awake longer.I'd consider light pollution (and general overuse of lights at night) as one factor that is negatively impacting urban life and changing how people /can/ live without even considering the effect of not being able to see the stars.
But being able to see the stars again is a bonus.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267851</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269963</id>
	<title>It's difficult to see the Milky Way....</title>
	<author>TangoCharlie</author>
	<datestamp>1244578260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think this one fifth is a gross under-estimate. Don't forget that almost half the earth is bathed in sunlight most of the time. I'd reckon that at any one time, no more than a third of the population can see the stars at all!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think this one fifth is a gross under-estimate .
Do n't forget that almost half the earth is bathed in sunlight most of the time .
I 'd reckon that at any one time , no more than a third of the population can see the stars at all !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think this one fifth is a gross under-estimate.
Don't forget that almost half the earth is bathed in sunlight most of the time.
I'd reckon that at any one time, no more than a third of the population can see the stars at all!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270429</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244579940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I'm lucky if I can see cyclists and pedestrians after sunset.</i></p><p><i>Yes I can see the bloody Milky Way, but the Milky Way isn't likely to cross an unlit street in front of you, is it?<br></i> </p><p>You say that like it's a bad thing.  Getting run over by a large automobile is God's little way of letting you know that you are a dumb ass, and He'd like a word with you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm lucky if I can see cyclists and pedestrians after sunset.Yes I can see the bloody Milky Way , but the Milky Way is n't likely to cross an unlit street in front of you , is it ?
You say that like it 's a bad thing .
Getting run over by a large automobile is God 's little way of letting you know that you are a dumb ass , and He 'd like a word with you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm lucky if I can see cyclists and pedestrians after sunset.Yes I can see the bloody Milky Way, but the Milky Way isn't likely to cross an unlit street in front of you, is it?
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Getting run over by a large automobile is God's little way of letting you know that you are a dumb ass, and He'd like a word with you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266863</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268587</id>
	<title>memorable sight, thirty years later</title>
	<author>anyaristow</author>
	<datestamp>1244573280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you don't know what the big deal is then you've probably never seen it. I still remember, thirty years later, seeing the night sky from a campground near Gettysburg, PA. Haven't seen it since, and I doubt if you can still see it from Gettysburg.</p><p>I think I'd have to travel an hour and a half to see it now. Maybe I should do that while those places still exist east of the Mississippi.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you do n't know what the big deal is then you 've probably never seen it .
I still remember , thirty years later , seeing the night sky from a campground near Gettysburg , PA. Have n't seen it since , and I doubt if you can still see it from Gettysburg.I think I 'd have to travel an hour and a half to see it now .
Maybe I should do that while those places still exist east of the Mississippi .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you don't know what the big deal is then you've probably never seen it.
I still remember, thirty years later, seeing the night sky from a campground near Gettysburg, PA. Haven't seen it since, and I doubt if you can still see it from Gettysburg.I think I'd have to travel an hour and a half to see it now.
Maybe I should do that while those places still exist east of the Mississippi.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269219</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Thumper\_SVX</author>
	<datestamp>1244575440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>See <a href="http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1262357&amp;cid=28268929" title="slashdot.org">this post</a> [slashdot.org] that I typed a few minutes ago. In order to hop that train, you'd have to realize there's a point to it, first.</p><p>When you can't see something, you tend to ignore it. That's human... there's no point concerning yourself with something that you can't observe from your vantage point. But live in that "reality" for long enough, and pretty soon you convince yourself that there's no need to go and look, because there really is nothing to see from the other vantage point. That's also human... it's a coping mechanism.</p><p>In Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, the Krikkiters were an extreme example of this, but actually quite prophetic. We are becoming the Krikkiters because we are beginning to lose touch with the fact that there actually is a universe out there. I truly believe that there's an entire generation growing up right now who are going to grow up thinking the universe exists in books and TV, but aren't going to see the relevance to themselves because they somehow view themselves as apart from it... because they can't see it. I did... and not because I was taught that way, but because I had never encountered anything different for most of my life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>See this post [ slashdot.org ] that I typed a few minutes ago .
In order to hop that train , you 'd have to realize there 's a point to it , first.When you ca n't see something , you tend to ignore it .
That 's human... there 's no point concerning yourself with something that you ca n't observe from your vantage point .
But live in that " reality " for long enough , and pretty soon you convince yourself that there 's no need to go and look , because there really is nothing to see from the other vantage point .
That 's also human... it 's a coping mechanism.In Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy , the Krikkiters were an extreme example of this , but actually quite prophetic .
We are becoming the Krikkiters because we are beginning to lose touch with the fact that there actually is a universe out there .
I truly believe that there 's an entire generation growing up right now who are going to grow up thinking the universe exists in books and TV , but are n't going to see the relevance to themselves because they somehow view themselves as apart from it... because they ca n't see it .
I did... and not because I was taught that way , but because I had never encountered anything different for most of my life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>See this post [slashdot.org] that I typed a few minutes ago.
In order to hop that train, you'd have to realize there's a point to it, first.When you can't see something, you tend to ignore it.
That's human... there's no point concerning yourself with something that you can't observe from your vantage point.
But live in that "reality" for long enough, and pretty soon you convince yourself that there's no need to go and look, because there really is nothing to see from the other vantage point.
That's also human... it's a coping mechanism.In Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, the Krikkiters were an extreme example of this, but actually quite prophetic.
We are becoming the Krikkiters because we are beginning to lose touch with the fact that there actually is a universe out there.
I truly believe that there's an entire generation growing up right now who are going to grow up thinking the universe exists in books and TV, but aren't going to see the relevance to themselves because they somehow view themselves as apart from it... because they can't see it.
I did... and not because I was taught that way, but because I had never encountered anything different for most of my life.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267393</id>
	<title>Re:Aren't we in the milkyway?</title>
	<author>+Newander+</author>
	<datestamp>1244568600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Milky Way doesn't have peanuts, only nougat.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Milky Way does n't have peanuts , only nougat .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Milky Way doesn't have peanuts, only nougat.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266709</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267061</id>
	<title>Never Could</title>
	<author>maz2331</author>
	<datestamp>1244567520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But that's because I live in Pittsburgh, where it's overcast with clouds constantly.  We have weeks where we can't even see the Sun.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But that 's because I live in Pittsburgh , where it 's overcast with clouds constantly .
We have weeks where we ca n't even see the Sun .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But that's because I live in Pittsburgh, where it's overcast with clouds constantly.
We have weeks where we can't even see the Sun.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266707</id>
	<title>Re:Aren't we in the milkyway?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244566440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Just because you can see some of the trees doesn't mean you're seeing the forest.

The Milky Way is (traditionally) a diffuse band across the night sky which is lighter than the inky black of space.  We call our galaxy the Milky Way because that band is made up of countless distant stars from that galaxy.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just because you can see some of the trees does n't mean you 're seeing the forest .
The Milky Way is ( traditionally ) a diffuse band across the night sky which is lighter than the inky black of space .
We call our galaxy the Milky Way because that band is made up of countless distant stars from that galaxy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just because you can see some of the trees doesn't mean you're seeing the forest.
The Milky Way is (traditionally) a diffuse band across the night sky which is lighter than the inky black of space.
We call our galaxy the Milky Way because that band is made up of countless distant stars from that galaxy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266483</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269699</id>
	<title>Come on over</title>
	<author>yamfry</author>
	<datestamp>1244577060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You can see the Milky Way no problem here. Maybe everybody should move here.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You can see the Milky Way no problem here .
Maybe everybody should move here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can see the Milky Way no problem here.
Maybe everybody should move here.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28276199</id>
	<title>Pffft...</title>
	<author>Yeti.SSM</author>
	<datestamp>1244577360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I can't see the Milky Way even at DAY!<br> <br><nobr> <wbr></nobr><i>...murmurs something about insensitive clods...</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>I ca n't see the Milky Way even at DAY !
...murmurs something about insensitive clods.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can't see the Milky Way even at DAY!
...murmurs something about insensitive clods...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266703</id>
	<title>Re:Aren't we in the milkyway?</title>
	<author>CheddarHead</author>
	<datestamp>1244566440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes we are in the Milky Way galaxy, so technically any nearby stars you can see are part of the Milky Way.  However, the Milky Way they're referring to is a dense band of distant stars you see when looking towards the galactic core.  It's visible as a band of white across the sky.  There's some photo's in the Wikipedia article.  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky\_Way" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky\_Way</a> [wikipedia.org]</p><p>The fact that you seem to not understand what they're referring to clearly illustrates their point.  (I'm assuming that your question was serious.)  Apparently you've never seen (or at least noticed) this band of stars.  Do yourself a favor and go out to the mountains or desert.  The beauty of the night sky in areas away from the cities is well worth the trip.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes we are in the Milky Way galaxy , so technically any nearby stars you can see are part of the Milky Way .
However , the Milky Way they 're referring to is a dense band of distant stars you see when looking towards the galactic core .
It 's visible as a band of white across the sky .
There 's some photo 's in the Wikipedia article .
http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky \ _Way [ wikipedia.org ] The fact that you seem to not understand what they 're referring to clearly illustrates their point .
( I 'm assuming that your question was serious .
) Apparently you 've never seen ( or at least noticed ) this band of stars .
Do yourself a favor and go out to the mountains or desert .
The beauty of the night sky in areas away from the cities is well worth the trip .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes we are in the Milky Way galaxy, so technically any nearby stars you can see are part of the Milky Way.
However, the Milky Way they're referring to is a dense band of distant stars you see when looking towards the galactic core.
It's visible as a band of white across the sky.
There's some photo's in the Wikipedia article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky\_Way [wikipedia.org]The fact that you seem to not understand what they're referring to clearly illustrates their point.
(I'm assuming that your question was serious.
)  Apparently you've never seen (or at least noticed) this band of stars.
Do yourself a favor and go out to the mountains or desert.
The beauty of the night sky in areas away from the cities is well worth the trip.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266483</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267005</id>
	<title>Re:Well... I could.</title>
	<author>bhagwad</author>
	<datestamp>1244567340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Living in India, it's this way with all the cities as well (which is why I refused to buy my 110mm telescope - I couldn't bear to use it in a city where I can't even see the andromeda constellation).<p>But in the villages, oooohhhh. Gorgeous. Tongue hanging out and you don't care if you get a crick in the neck.

<br>That aside, I don't see how any government can <i>possibly</i> take light pollution seriously. Too much investment to satisfy too small a group - who cares if it's world heritage.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Living in India , it 's this way with all the cities as well ( which is why I refused to buy my 110mm telescope - I could n't bear to use it in a city where I ca n't even see the andromeda constellation ) .But in the villages , oooohhhh .
Gorgeous. Tongue hanging out and you do n't care if you get a crick in the neck .
That aside , I do n't see how any government can possibly take light pollution seriously .
Too much investment to satisfy too small a group - who cares if it 's world heritage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Living in India, it's this way with all the cities as well (which is why I refused to buy my 110mm telescope - I couldn't bear to use it in a city where I can't even see the andromeda constellation).But in the villages, oooohhhh.
Gorgeous. Tongue hanging out and you don't care if you get a crick in the neck.
That aside, I don't see how any government can possibly take light pollution seriously.
Too much investment to satisfy too small a group - who cares if it's world heritage.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268893</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>Xandar01</author>
	<datestamp>1244574300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>&gt;I'm lucky if I can see cyclists and pedestrians after sunset.

That's just population control, if there stupid enough to step in front of a moving car then they don't need to be spoiling the gene pool.</htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; I 'm lucky if I can see cyclists and pedestrians after sunset .
That 's just population control , if there stupid enough to step in front of a moving car then they do n't need to be spoiling the gene pool .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;I'm lucky if I can see cyclists and pedestrians after sunset.
That's just population control, if there stupid enough to step in front of a moving car then they don't need to be spoiling the gene pool.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266863</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268047</id>
	<title>4/5 can't see anything else</title>
	<author>holophrastic</author>
	<datestamp>1244571300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Four fifths of the world's population can't see across the street.</p><p>This is silly.  Yes it's magestic, yes it's pretty.  If you want to see the stars, leave your metropolis and drive for 45 minutes.</p><p>The concept of city lights is a very good one -- seeing, safety, convenience, fun, commerce, night-life, and more.</p><p>If you're asking me to choose between star-gazing and night-life, I'm choosing night-life, along with almost everyone else.  When I want to see the stars, I'll drive 30 minutes north.  it's not complicated.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Four fifths of the world 's population ca n't see across the street.This is silly .
Yes it 's magestic , yes it 's pretty .
If you want to see the stars , leave your metropolis and drive for 45 minutes.The concept of city lights is a very good one -- seeing , safety , convenience , fun , commerce , night-life , and more.If you 're asking me to choose between star-gazing and night-life , I 'm choosing night-life , along with almost everyone else .
When I want to see the stars , I 'll drive 30 minutes north .
it 's not complicated .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Four fifths of the world's population can't see across the street.This is silly.
Yes it's magestic, yes it's pretty.
If you want to see the stars, leave your metropolis and drive for 45 minutes.The concept of city lights is a very good one -- seeing, safety, convenience, fun, commerce, night-life, and more.If you're asking me to choose between star-gazing and night-life, I'm choosing night-life, along with almost everyone else.
When I want to see the stars, I'll drive 30 minutes north.
it's not complicated.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266947</id>
	<title>Re:You don't even know you're missing it.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244567160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What was really amazing was once I went camping with some friends up in the mountains and at the time someone had the right contact and we were able to borrow a piece of Gen 3 night vision.  Lying on the ground in the mountains with a high quality image intensifier was pretty crazy.  You could see an almost continuous stream of meteors as well as more stars then I ever imagined.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What was really amazing was once I went camping with some friends up in the mountains and at the time someone had the right contact and we were able to borrow a piece of Gen 3 night vision .
Lying on the ground in the mountains with a high quality image intensifier was pretty crazy .
You could see an almost continuous stream of meteors as well as more stars then I ever imagined .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What was really amazing was once I went camping with some friends up in the mountains and at the time someone had the right contact and we were able to borrow a piece of Gen 3 night vision.
Lying on the ground in the mountains with a high quality image intensifier was pretty crazy.
You could see an almost continuous stream of meteors as well as more stars then I ever imagined.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266497</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269703</id>
	<title>Re:You don't even know you're missing it.</title>
	<author>Just Some Guy</author>
	<datestamp>1244577060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>So you managed to spot Laxitiva Major?</p></div><p>It's hard to see, as are most brown holes.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So you managed to spot Laxitiva Major ? It 's hard to see , as are most brown holes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So you managed to spot Laxitiva Major?It's hard to see, as are most brown holes.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266815</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267029</id>
	<title>Two Places I've been blown away by the night sky..</title>
	<author>Papatoast</author>
	<datestamp>1244567460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've loved the night sky since I was a kid and growing up in rural NC, I could, and still can, see the Milky Way, observe nebula, etc..</p><p>However, I spent a night in the Moroccan desert and was just slobberknockered at the sky.  Likewise, I camped in the Peruvian Andes and the clarity and seeing the southern hemisphere stars for the first time was just mind warping.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've loved the night sky since I was a kid and growing up in rural NC , I could , and still can , see the Milky Way , observe nebula , etc..However , I spent a night in the Moroccan desert and was just slobberknockered at the sky .
Likewise , I camped in the Peruvian Andes and the clarity and seeing the southern hemisphere stars for the first time was just mind warping .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've loved the night sky since I was a kid and growing up in rural NC, I could, and still can, see the Milky Way, observe nebula, etc..However, I spent a night in the Moroccan desert and was just slobberknockered at the sky.
Likewise, I camped in the Peruvian Andes and the clarity and seeing the southern hemisphere stars for the first time was just mind warping.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266557</id>
	<title>I can see about 20</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244566020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I just recently got a new DSLR camera so now I'm playing around with all it's fancy features.  I figured I would see if I could get a picture of the Milky Way from my deck in Cambridge MA.  After processing the heck out of it I got about 20-30 stars... it was really kinda sad.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I just recently got a new DSLR camera so now I 'm playing around with all it 's fancy features .
I figured I would see if I could get a picture of the Milky Way from my deck in Cambridge MA .
After processing the heck out of it I got about 20-30 stars... it was really kinda sad .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just recently got a new DSLR camera so now I'm playing around with all it's fancy features.
I figured I would see if I could get a picture of the Milky Way from my deck in Cambridge MA.
After processing the heck out of it I got about 20-30 stars... it was really kinda sad.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266713</id>
	<title>Well at least...</title>
	<author>Daemonax</author>
	<datestamp>1244566440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well at least with the constelations becoming hard to see, we might see a decline in astrology.
<br> <br>
Though it's an incredible lose to not be able to go outside and just gaze up at the cosmos, with it's billions and billions of stars and galaxies, and to just feel awed by the beauty of nature.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well at least with the constelations becoming hard to see , we might see a decline in astrology .
Though it 's an incredible lose to not be able to go outside and just gaze up at the cosmos , with it 's billions and billions of stars and galaxies , and to just feel awed by the beauty of nature .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well at least with the constelations becoming hard to see, we might see a decline in astrology.
Though it's an incredible lose to not be able to go outside and just gaze up at the cosmos, with it's billions and billions of stars and galaxies, and to just feel awed by the beauty of nature.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270741</id>
	<title>Re:You have to get away ...</title>
	<author>gfreeman</author>
	<datestamp>1244538060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Also on your astronomical to do list, head to the southern hemisphere. There's a whole different set of stars there</p></div><p>The phases of the moon are also off by 45-90 degrees. Spooky!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Also on your astronomical to do list , head to the southern hemisphere .
There 's a whole different set of stars thereThe phases of the moon are also off by 45-90 degrees .
Spooky !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Also on your astronomical to do list, head to the southern hemisphere.
There's a whole different set of stars thereThe phases of the moon are also off by 45-90 degrees.
Spooky!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266563</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268833</id>
	<title>Re:Uggg</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244574060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ok, how about a way to reclaim the light polution using solar cells (really sensative ones) which not only deflect light from going up and out but reclaim part of that waste as re-usable energy...</p><p>Sure, there is some waste and its not 100\% but two problems solved.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ok , how about a way to reclaim the light polution using solar cells ( really sensative ones ) which not only deflect light from going up and out but reclaim part of that waste as re-usable energy...Sure , there is some waste and its not 100 \ % but two problems solved .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ok, how about a way to reclaim the light polution using solar cells (really sensative ones) which not only deflect light from going up and out but reclaim part of that waste as re-usable energy...Sure, there is some waste and its not 100\% but two problems solved.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267851</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268421</id>
	<title>I know the names of those stars!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244572620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>GPS 48-57<br>Echostar 23-32<br>DirectTV 14-23</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>GPS 48-57Echostar 23-32DirectTV 14-23</tokentext>
<sentencetext>GPS 48-57Echostar 23-32DirectTV 14-23</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266557</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28273857</id>
	<title>Re:I can see about 20</title>
	<author>theheadlessrabbit</author>
	<datestamp>1244556300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>on my camera, ISO 1600 and 30 seconds exposure is enough to get hundreds of stars, but grain and noise pollution, along with star streaking become a problem.</p><p>my next little project for the weekend is to take about 10 images at 10 seconds a piece, and stack/rotate them in photoshop, see if i can get lucky, and get highly visible stairs without the noise/streaking.</p><p>are you attempting this in the city, or in a rural area?  in the city, ambient light drowns out the starlight very quickly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>on my camera , ISO 1600 and 30 seconds exposure is enough to get hundreds of stars , but grain and noise pollution , along with star streaking become a problem.my next little project for the weekend is to take about 10 images at 10 seconds a piece , and stack/rotate them in photoshop , see if i can get lucky , and get highly visible stairs without the noise/streaking.are you attempting this in the city , or in a rural area ?
in the city , ambient light drowns out the starlight very quickly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>on my camera, ISO 1600 and 30 seconds exposure is enough to get hundreds of stars, but grain and noise pollution, along with star streaking become a problem.my next little project for the weekend is to take about 10 images at 10 seconds a piece, and stack/rotate them in photoshop, see if i can get lucky, and get highly visible stairs without the noise/streaking.are you attempting this in the city, or in a rural area?
in the city, ambient light drowns out the starlight very quickly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266557</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268459</id>
	<title>Enough is Enough</title>
	<author>trickyD1ck</author>
	<datestamp>1244572800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Stupid industrial civilization. Time to destroy it. Obama, are you reading this?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Stupid industrial civilization .
Time to destroy it .
Obama , are you reading this ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stupid industrial civilization.
Time to destroy it.
Obama, are you reading this?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270433</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244580000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>A) If you look at a photo of Earth at night, you'll see why a clear view of the night sky is not just a train-ride to the suburbs away.</i></p><p>If that's not the case for you, then *move*. Seriously, if this is important to you, you can pick up your things and move-- just like if gambling (for example) is important to you, you can move to Nevada. Or if high school football is important to you, you can move to Texas.</p><p><i>C) Seeing the wonder of the universe is a good thing. Living in a cave is not. Is that distinction so difficult to comprehend? "The rest is technology at work, for better or worse." Oh, so maybe you do grasp the point! Except that we don't have to just accept technology "for better or worse"; we can choose to use technology in ways that makes our lives better and not to use technology in ways that makes it worse.</i></p><p>Use technology like the "automacar" and the "zepplaplane" to move your ass somewhere where you can see the stars.</p><p>Christ, I hate this thread. It's basically a bunch of people whining, "this issue is important to me, but not important enough to change anything in my life!" Waaah. Either move to where you can see stars, or shut up already.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A ) If you look at a photo of Earth at night , you 'll see why a clear view of the night sky is not just a train-ride to the suburbs away.If that 's not the case for you , then * move * .
Seriously , if this is important to you , you can pick up your things and move-- just like if gambling ( for example ) is important to you , you can move to Nevada .
Or if high school football is important to you , you can move to Texas.C ) Seeing the wonder of the universe is a good thing .
Living in a cave is not .
Is that distinction so difficult to comprehend ?
" The rest is technology at work , for better or worse .
" Oh , so maybe you do grasp the point !
Except that we do n't have to just accept technology " for better or worse " ; we can choose to use technology in ways that makes our lives better and not to use technology in ways that makes it worse.Use technology like the " automacar " and the " zepplaplane " to move your ass somewhere where you can see the stars.Christ , I hate this thread .
It 's basically a bunch of people whining , " this issue is important to me , but not important enough to change anything in my life !
" Waaah .
Either move to where you can see stars , or shut up already .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A) If you look at a photo of Earth at night, you'll see why a clear view of the night sky is not just a train-ride to the suburbs away.If that's not the case for you, then *move*.
Seriously, if this is important to you, you can pick up your things and move-- just like if gambling (for example) is important to you, you can move to Nevada.
Or if high school football is important to you, you can move to Texas.C) Seeing the wonder of the universe is a good thing.
Living in a cave is not.
Is that distinction so difficult to comprehend?
"The rest is technology at work, for better or worse.
" Oh, so maybe you do grasp the point!
Except that we don't have to just accept technology "for better or worse"; we can choose to use technology in ways that makes our lives better and not to use technology in ways that makes it worse.Use technology like the "automacar" and the "zepplaplane" to move your ass somewhere where you can see the stars.Christ, I hate this thread.
It's basically a bunch of people whining, "this issue is important to me, but not important enough to change anything in my life!
" Waaah.
Either move to where you can see stars, or shut up already.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267431</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28277195</id>
	<title>Plus you don't need so many lights either</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244631660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's one road where it's 20 feet between each light. You can have four shadows visible from the number of streetlights.</p><p>But you don't even need them closer than 40 yards (as long as the light isn't shining horizontally, reducing your eyesight from the glare). They will still illuminate the ground well enough.</p><p>Heck, there's no direct light into my back garden. Yet if the clouds are Alto Stratus ~8000 ft or lower, a few short seconds after walking out the back, I can see my garden clearly.</p><p>JUST FROM THE LIGHT POLLUTION!</p><p>The lower the cloud, the brighter.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's one road where it 's 20 feet between each light .
You can have four shadows visible from the number of streetlights.But you do n't even need them closer than 40 yards ( as long as the light is n't shining horizontally , reducing your eyesight from the glare ) .
They will still illuminate the ground well enough.Heck , there 's no direct light into my back garden .
Yet if the clouds are Alto Stratus ~ 8000 ft or lower , a few short seconds after walking out the back , I can see my garden clearly.JUST FROM THE LIGHT POLLUTION ! The lower the cloud , the brighter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's one road where it's 20 feet between each light.
You can have four shadows visible from the number of streetlights.But you don't even need them closer than 40 yards (as long as the light isn't shining horizontally, reducing your eyesight from the glare).
They will still illuminate the ground well enough.Heck, there's no direct light into my back garden.
Yet if the clouds are Alto Stratus ~8000 ft or lower, a few short seconds after walking out the back, I can see my garden clearly.JUST FROM THE LIGHT POLLUTION!The lower the cloud, the brighter.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269629</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266791</id>
	<title>Four fifths of slashdot's population</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244566680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>can't see milky way at night because Mom's basement ceiling is in the way</htmltext>
<tokenext>ca n't see milky way at night because Mom 's basement ceiling is in the way</tokentext>
<sentencetext>can't see milky way at night because Mom's basement ceiling is in the way</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28273245</id>
	<title>Re:You have to get away ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244551560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I haven't been to the Southern side, but have heard it's pretty neat.</p><p>I live in Montana, and if you get away from the few "major" cities (major equals 100k), especially in the Rockies, you can get a view that is, in my opinion, better than that at sea. Being able to see stars on the horizon which appear <i>below</i> your position is pretty damn nifty.</p><p>But go to one of the "large" cities and the light pollution is as bad as NYC or any other large town, mostly due to industrial pollution. The issue really has very little to do with light pollution- it's the OTHER forms of pollution which reflect the light back down that messes up the sky.<br>Even if you eliminate all the light, you'll still have trouble getting a clear view through the smog, but add the light and it's like turning on your headlights in fog.</p><p>I personally enjoy heading up near Glacier National during August to catch the showers. The best was back in the early 90's when I camped on top of a mountain on a moonless night. There were at least two dozen highly visible meteors at any given point in time in the sky... it looked quite literally like a rain shower of stars.</p><p>You are exactly right. You don't even realize how much you miss until you see it- as a kid I remember wondering why they called it the "milky" way, and thinking my grandfather was full of crap when he said it looks like someone spilled milk across the sky. Then he took me into the mountains, and it made perfect sense.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have n't been to the Southern side , but have heard it 's pretty neat.I live in Montana , and if you get away from the few " major " cities ( major equals 100k ) , especially in the Rockies , you can get a view that is , in my opinion , better than that at sea .
Being able to see stars on the horizon which appear below your position is pretty damn nifty.But go to one of the " large " cities and the light pollution is as bad as NYC or any other large town , mostly due to industrial pollution .
The issue really has very little to do with light pollution- it 's the OTHER forms of pollution which reflect the light back down that messes up the sky.Even if you eliminate all the light , you 'll still have trouble getting a clear view through the smog , but add the light and it 's like turning on your headlights in fog.I personally enjoy heading up near Glacier National during August to catch the showers .
The best was back in the early 90 's when I camped on top of a mountain on a moonless night .
There were at least two dozen highly visible meteors at any given point in time in the sky... it looked quite literally like a rain shower of stars.You are exactly right .
You do n't even realize how much you miss until you see it- as a kid I remember wondering why they called it the " milky " way , and thinking my grandfather was full of crap when he said it looks like someone spilled milk across the sky .
Then he took me into the mountains , and it made perfect sense .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I haven't been to the Southern side, but have heard it's pretty neat.I live in Montana, and if you get away from the few "major" cities (major equals 100k), especially in the Rockies, you can get a view that is, in my opinion, better than that at sea.
Being able to see stars on the horizon which appear below your position is pretty damn nifty.But go to one of the "large" cities and the light pollution is as bad as NYC or any other large town, mostly due to industrial pollution.
The issue really has very little to do with light pollution- it's the OTHER forms of pollution which reflect the light back down that messes up the sky.Even if you eliminate all the light, you'll still have trouble getting a clear view through the smog, but add the light and it's like turning on your headlights in fog.I personally enjoy heading up near Glacier National during August to catch the showers.
The best was back in the early 90's when I camped on top of a mountain on a moonless night.
There were at least two dozen highly visible meteors at any given point in time in the sky... it looked quite literally like a rain shower of stars.You are exactly right.
You don't even realize how much you miss until you see it- as a kid I remember wondering why they called it the "milky" way, and thinking my grandfather was full of crap when he said it looks like someone spilled milk across the sky.
Then he took me into the mountains, and it made perfect sense.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266563</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267539</id>
	<title>Re:Quit calling it "light pollution"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244569200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The studies you cite don't compare cities that "improved" their lighting versus ones that didn't during the same period.  During the periods covered during the studios, crime went down everywhere.  So, did the crime go down because of the additional lighting or was crime going down like it was everywhere else, possibly because of the diminished influence of lead based products on young adults?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The studies you cite do n't compare cities that " improved " their lighting versus ones that did n't during the same period .
During the periods covered during the studios , crime went down everywhere .
So , did the crime go down because of the additional lighting or was crime going down like it was everywhere else , possibly because of the diminished influence of lead based products on young adults ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The studies you cite don't compare cities that "improved" their lighting versus ones that didn't during the same period.
During the periods covered during the studios, crime went down everywhere.
So, did the crime go down because of the additional lighting or was crime going down like it was everywhere else, possibly because of the diminished influence of lead based products on young adults?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267099</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266805</id>
	<title>Geography101</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244566740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... You do realise Britain is IN Europe?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... You do realise Britain is IN Europe ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... You do realise Britain is IN Europe?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28275953</id>
	<title>Oh no</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244574780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have seen it but I think it was dim and barely visible. And I thought that was the best that can be seen. Now I searched for real pictures on the internet and I discovered that I am probably missing something<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:(</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have seen it but I think it was dim and barely visible .
And I thought that was the best that can be seen .
Now I searched for real pictures on the internet and I discovered that I am probably missing something : (</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have seen it but I think it was dim and barely visible.
And I thought that was the best that can be seen.
Now I searched for real pictures on the internet and I discovered that I am probably missing something :(</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267309</id>
	<title>Re:This is sad</title>
	<author>MightyYar</author>
	<datestamp>1244568240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I live in the city and don't drive.</p></div><p>I'm in the same boat. My daughter gets a kick out of seeing stars when we visit our parents. Maybe things like the new <a href="http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/lighting-the-big-apple-with-leds/" title="nytimes.com">LED lights</a> [nytimes.com] will help, but I wouldn't bank on it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I live in the city and do n't drive.I 'm in the same boat .
My daughter gets a kick out of seeing stars when we visit our parents .
Maybe things like the new LED lights [ nytimes.com ] will help , but I would n't bank on it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live in the city and don't drive.I'm in the same boat.
My daughter gets a kick out of seeing stars when we visit our parents.
Maybe things like the new LED lights [nytimes.com] will help, but I wouldn't bank on it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267355</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>Verdatum</author>
	<datestamp>1244568480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Curious, Arizona has some of the best night sky in the US.  All you have to do is...leave Tucson.  If you ask me, those dark-sky people are just being LAZY!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Curious , Arizona has some of the best night sky in the US .
All you have to do is...leave Tucson .
If you ask me , those dark-sky people are just being LAZY !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Curious, Arizona has some of the best night sky in the US.
All you have to do is...leave Tucson.
If you ask me, those dark-sky people are just being LAZY!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266863</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28271563</id>
	<title>Non-crappy citation needed</title>
	<author>Hizonner</author>
	<datestamp>1244541720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>
<p>
From your "deters crime" link:
</p><blockquote><div><p>The review also found that nighttime crimes did not decrease more than daytime crimes. This suggests that a theory of street lighting focusing on its role in increasing community pride and informal social control may be more plausible than a theory focusing on increased surveillance and increased deterrence.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
So, put the money you'd put into lighting into sprucing up the place in some other way, and you can reasonably hope for the same effect. Maybe a better effect, if you find something more obviously related to making things look cared for.
</p><p>
Your other link ("improves safety")  is just an advocacy group (for "Safe Routes to Schools", which, for me, at least, rings all kinds of "think of the children" alarm bells). Lighting isn't even a core issue for them. They claim they get their information from unnamed "experts", and their safety claims for lighting amount to a simple mention once in a whole Web site. Their own references are unavailable for review, as well as being old and, from their titles, multi-subject documents that aren't primary research and probably don't even spend most of their attention on lighting. If you can't find a better citation than that anywhere on the whole Web, I tend to suspect that the whole claim isn't very well supported.
</p><p>
And anything that gets released into the environment and causes <em>any</em> negative effect can reasonably be called "pollution", thanks.
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>From your " deters crime " link : The review also found that nighttime crimes did not decrease more than daytime crimes .
This suggests that a theory of street lighting focusing on its role in increasing community pride and informal social control may be more plausible than a theory focusing on increased surveillance and increased deterrence .
So , put the money you 'd put into lighting into sprucing up the place in some other way , and you can reasonably hope for the same effect .
Maybe a better effect , if you find something more obviously related to making things look cared for .
Your other link ( " improves safety " ) is just an advocacy group ( for " Safe Routes to Schools " , which , for me , at least , rings all kinds of " think of the children " alarm bells ) .
Lighting is n't even a core issue for them .
They claim they get their information from unnamed " experts " , and their safety claims for lighting amount to a simple mention once in a whole Web site .
Their own references are unavailable for review , as well as being old and , from their titles , multi-subject documents that are n't primary research and probably do n't even spend most of their attention on lighting .
If you ca n't find a better citation than that anywhere on the whole Web , I tend to suspect that the whole claim is n't very well supported .
And anything that gets released into the environment and causes any negative effect can reasonably be called " pollution " , thanks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>

From your "deters crime" link:
The review also found that nighttime crimes did not decrease more than daytime crimes.
This suggests that a theory of street lighting focusing on its role in increasing community pride and informal social control may be more plausible than a theory focusing on increased surveillance and increased deterrence.
So, put the money you'd put into lighting into sprucing up the place in some other way, and you can reasonably hope for the same effect.
Maybe a better effect, if you find something more obviously related to making things look cared for.
Your other link ("improves safety")  is just an advocacy group (for "Safe Routes to Schools", which, for me, at least, rings all kinds of "think of the children" alarm bells).
Lighting isn't even a core issue for them.
They claim they get their information from unnamed "experts", and their safety claims for lighting amount to a simple mention once in a whole Web site.
Their own references are unavailable for review, as well as being old and, from their titles, multi-subject documents that aren't primary research and probably don't even spend most of their attention on lighting.
If you can't find a better citation than that anywhere on the whole Web, I tend to suspect that the whole claim isn't very well supported.
And anything that gets released into the environment and causes any negative effect can reasonably be called "pollution", thanks.

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267099</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268611</id>
	<title>Re:You don't even know you're missing it.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244573400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>When we broke out of the trees, I looked up and shit my pants.</p></div><p>I really hope that has something to do with the the Milky Way galaxy.  It might just be a totally off-topic story, that I did not want to read.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>When we broke out of the trees , I looked up and shit my pants.I really hope that has something to do with the the Milky Way galaxy .
It might just be a totally off-topic story , that I did not want to read .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When we broke out of the trees, I looked up and shit my pants.I really hope that has something to do with the the Milky Way galaxy.
It might just be a totally off-topic story, that I did not want to read.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266497</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28278959</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244645940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Frankly, you can see the Milky Way much closer by than France. True, not in S-France splendour, but well visible nevertheless. Even in the western Netherlands.</p><p>I live in Leiden, i.e. in the same western part of the Netherlands. 25 minutes by bike will bring me into the polder to the east of Leiden. I have no difficulty seeing the milky way there bar the last 30 degrees near the horizon.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Frankly , you can see the Milky Way much closer by than France .
True , not in S-France splendour , but well visible nevertheless .
Even in the western Netherlands.I live in Leiden , i.e .
in the same western part of the Netherlands .
25 minutes by bike will bring me into the polder to the east of Leiden .
I have no difficulty seeing the milky way there bar the last 30 degrees near the horizon .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Frankly, you can see the Milky Way much closer by than France.
True, not in S-France splendour, but well visible nevertheless.
Even in the western Netherlands.I live in Leiden, i.e.
in the same western part of the Netherlands.
25 minutes by bike will bring me into the polder to the east of Leiden.
I have no difficulty seeing the milky way there bar the last 30 degrees near the horizon.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267883</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267283</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>DdJ</author>
	<datestamp>1244568180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>B) When is light 'pollution', and are we okay with (what I assume is) a situational definition of that word? Is light 'pollution' when it comes out of your headlights? Or only when Wal-Mart uses it to light their parking lot? Is there some measurable standard of 'enough' light, and the excess is 'pollution'? Or is it only 'pollution' when you want it to be dark? I'd honestly like to know...</p></div><p>Well, I'd probably call it "light polution" when it started to have measurable negative impact on the ecosystems that it's being poured into.</p><p>For example, do you know about the interactions between exposure to light and melatonin (not melanin) production?  And how some animals (arguably including humans) use that to regulate their circadian rhytms?  And how other animals use differences in that to measure the change of seasons, and undergo metabolic changes based on that measurement?  About how that can impact fertility in some species?</p><p>Also, do you know about how light interacts with migration instincts?  Do you know why Japanese fishermen light up the sea at night?</p><p>The "milky way at night" is an aesthetic thing, and I can see folks using it for PR purposes, and also to make what's going on into something people can directly relate to.  But don't conclude from that that it's the only argument available, the only reason to think about "light polution".  That might be natural to conclude at first, but it's like concluding that the only problem with littering is that styrofoam containers by the roadside are ugly to the eye, just because that's an argument you hear someone making.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>B ) When is light 'pollution ' , and are we okay with ( what I assume is ) a situational definition of that word ?
Is light 'pollution ' when it comes out of your headlights ?
Or only when Wal-Mart uses it to light their parking lot ?
Is there some measurable standard of 'enough ' light , and the excess is 'pollution ' ?
Or is it only 'pollution ' when you want it to be dark ?
I 'd honestly like to know...Well , I 'd probably call it " light polution " when it started to have measurable negative impact on the ecosystems that it 's being poured into.For example , do you know about the interactions between exposure to light and melatonin ( not melanin ) production ?
And how some animals ( arguably including humans ) use that to regulate their circadian rhytms ?
And how other animals use differences in that to measure the change of seasons , and undergo metabolic changes based on that measurement ?
About how that can impact fertility in some species ? Also , do you know about how light interacts with migration instincts ?
Do you know why Japanese fishermen light up the sea at night ? The " milky way at night " is an aesthetic thing , and I can see folks using it for PR purposes , and also to make what 's going on into something people can directly relate to .
But do n't conclude from that that it 's the only argument available , the only reason to think about " light polution " .
That might be natural to conclude at first , but it 's like concluding that the only problem with littering is that styrofoam containers by the roadside are ugly to the eye , just because that 's an argument you hear someone making .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>B) When is light 'pollution', and are we okay with (what I assume is) a situational definition of that word?
Is light 'pollution' when it comes out of your headlights?
Or only when Wal-Mart uses it to light their parking lot?
Is there some measurable standard of 'enough' light, and the excess is 'pollution'?
Or is it only 'pollution' when you want it to be dark?
I'd honestly like to know...Well, I'd probably call it "light polution" when it started to have measurable negative impact on the ecosystems that it's being poured into.For example, do you know about the interactions between exposure to light and melatonin (not melanin) production?
And how some animals (arguably including humans) use that to regulate their circadian rhytms?
And how other animals use differences in that to measure the change of seasons, and undergo metabolic changes based on that measurement?
About how that can impact fertility in some species?Also, do you know about how light interacts with migration instincts?
Do you know why Japanese fishermen light up the sea at night?The "milky way at night" is an aesthetic thing, and I can see folks using it for PR purposes, and also to make what's going on into something people can directly relate to.
But don't conclude from that that it's the only argument available, the only reason to think about "light polution".
That might be natural to conclude at first, but it's like concluding that the only problem with littering is that styrofoam containers by the roadside are ugly to the eye, just because that's an argument you hear someone making.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267149</id>
	<title>We don't miss it at all in Britain</title>
	<author>petes\_PoV</author>
	<datestamp>1244567760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Because it's cloudy, dull and rainy the whole time - like today, and yesterday, and the day before that, and<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.... for instance.
<p>
Even when this country didn't have light pollution, the milky way was a rare sight. Normally when you look up there's just clouds. On the few clear nights we do have the moon would blot out the MW, anyway. On occasion you get to see a few bright dots through the light pollution - but those are generally just an aircraft flying by.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because it 's cloudy , dull and rainy the whole time - like today , and yesterday , and the day before that , and .... for instance .
Even when this country did n't have light pollution , the milky way was a rare sight .
Normally when you look up there 's just clouds .
On the few clear nights we do have the moon would blot out the MW , anyway .
On occasion you get to see a few bright dots through the light pollution - but those are generally just an aircraft flying by .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because it's cloudy, dull and rainy the whole time - like today, and yesterday, and the day before that, and .... for instance.
Even when this country didn't have light pollution, the milky way was a rare sight.
Normally when you look up there's just clouds.
On the few clear nights we do have the moon would blot out the MW, anyway.
On occasion you get to see a few bright dots through the light pollution - but those are generally just an aircraft flying by.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267431</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>tverbeek</author>
	<datestamp>1244568840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>A) If you look at a photo of <a href="https://www.eere-pmc.energy.gov/PMC\_News/images/night-map.gif" title="energy.gov">Earth at night</a> [energy.gov], you'll see why a clear view of the night sky is <i>not</i> just a train-ride to the suburbs away.  Huge swaths of land are blanketed in artificial light.  By the logic you're presenting here, it wouldn't matter if we cut down all the trees as long as we had tree museums for people to go visit.
<br> <br>
B) Pollution is pollution, regardless of the source.  Lower levels are more tolerable than higher levels, but it all detracts from the view of the sky (along with other negative effects).  All sources of light pollution should be minimized.
<br> <br>
C) Seeing the wonder of the universe is a good thing.  Living in a cave is not.  Is that distinction so difficult to comprehend?  "The rest is technology at work, for better or worse."  Oh, so maybe you <i>do</i> grasp the point!  Except that we don't have to just accept technology "for better or worse"; we can <i>choose</i> to use technology in ways that makes our lives better and <i>not</i> to use technology in ways that makes it worse.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A ) If you look at a photo of Earth at night [ energy.gov ] , you 'll see why a clear view of the night sky is not just a train-ride to the suburbs away .
Huge swaths of land are blanketed in artificial light .
By the logic you 're presenting here , it would n't matter if we cut down all the trees as long as we had tree museums for people to go visit .
B ) Pollution is pollution , regardless of the source .
Lower levels are more tolerable than higher levels , but it all detracts from the view of the sky ( along with other negative effects ) .
All sources of light pollution should be minimized .
C ) Seeing the wonder of the universe is a good thing .
Living in a cave is not .
Is that distinction so difficult to comprehend ?
" The rest is technology at work , for better or worse .
" Oh , so maybe you do grasp the point !
Except that we do n't have to just accept technology " for better or worse " ; we can choose to use technology in ways that makes our lives better and not to use technology in ways that makes it worse .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A) If you look at a photo of Earth at night [energy.gov], you'll see why a clear view of the night sky is not just a train-ride to the suburbs away.
Huge swaths of land are blanketed in artificial light.
By the logic you're presenting here, it wouldn't matter if we cut down all the trees as long as we had tree museums for people to go visit.
B) Pollution is pollution, regardless of the source.
Lower levels are more tolerable than higher levels, but it all detracts from the view of the sky (along with other negative effects).
All sources of light pollution should be minimized.
C) Seeing the wonder of the universe is a good thing.
Living in a cave is not.
Is that distinction so difficult to comprehend?
"The rest is technology at work, for better or worse.
"  Oh, so maybe you do grasp the point!
Except that we don't have to just accept technology "for better or worse"; we can choose to use technology in ways that makes our lives better and not to use technology in ways that makes it worse.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28272127</id>
	<title>Japanese Fishermen</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244544420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Do you know why Japanese fishermen light up the sea at night?</p></div><p>So they can SEE!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do you know why Japanese fishermen light up the sea at night ? So they can SEE !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do you know why Japanese fishermen light up the sea at night?So they can SEE!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267283</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269099</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Innova</author>
	<datestamp>1244575080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think one of the big points is that in this situation we can have our cake and eat it to.  There are many light designs that do not shine up into the sky.  If you reflect that light back down to the ground, you can use less wattage (read $$), and it doesn't pollute the night sky nearly as much.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think one of the big points is that in this situation we can have our cake and eat it to .
There are many light designs that do not shine up into the sky .
If you reflect that light back down to the ground , you can use less wattage ( read $ $ ) , and it does n't pollute the night sky nearly as much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think one of the big points is that in this situation we can have our cake and eat it to.
There are many light designs that do not shine up into the sky.
If you reflect that light back down to the ground, you can use less wattage (read $$), and it doesn't pollute the night sky nearly as much.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267389</id>
	<title>Re:Aaah... the lucky, lucky, people...</title>
	<author>MadLad</author>
	<datestamp>1244568600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Your ironic point, denzacar, is easily made and quite valid, but not nearly so straightforward as it seems.<br> <br>

You use the word "civilised" without single quotes, as though it is unproblematic. You tacitly but inescapably suggest that areas (and people?) which lack roads, health care, formal education and a constant hum (all features of civilisation) are not 'civilised'. That is very problematic, as it assumes the primacy of your own system of judging what constitutes 'civilisation' and does not admit the possibility of any other. But since you are talking about people who are very much 'other', that is absurd.<br> <br>

You also seem to suggest that the absence of all these things is, in fact, a lack. These may not have been your intentions, of course, but they are implications nonetheless. <br> <br>

The value systems of people in 'uncivilised' areas may well differ altogether from our own but be completely valid on their own terms. Don't conflate this with a romanticisation of poverty, but the San of southern Africa, for instance, have no concept of private property but would (and this is my assumption) nonetheless place unimaginably greater value on an untarred swathe of desert stretching to all horizons and the sight of the milky way in the night sky than they would value 'formal education' and modern 'entertainment'.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Your ironic point , denzacar , is easily made and quite valid , but not nearly so straightforward as it seems .
You use the word " civilised " without single quotes , as though it is unproblematic .
You tacitly but inescapably suggest that areas ( and people ?
) which lack roads , health care , formal education and a constant hum ( all features of civilisation ) are not 'civilised' .
That is very problematic , as it assumes the primacy of your own system of judging what constitutes 'civilisation ' and does not admit the possibility of any other .
But since you are talking about people who are very much 'other ' , that is absurd .
You also seem to suggest that the absence of all these things is , in fact , a lack .
These may not have been your intentions , of course , but they are implications nonetheless .
The value systems of people in 'uncivilised ' areas may well differ altogether from our own but be completely valid on their own terms .
Do n't conflate this with a romanticisation of poverty , but the San of southern Africa , for instance , have no concept of private property but would ( and this is my assumption ) nonetheless place unimaginably greater value on an untarred swathe of desert stretching to all horizons and the sight of the milky way in the night sky than they would value 'formal education ' and modern 'entertainment' .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your ironic point, denzacar, is easily made and quite valid, but not nearly so straightforward as it seems.
You use the word "civilised" without single quotes, as though it is unproblematic.
You tacitly but inescapably suggest that areas (and people?
) which lack roads, health care, formal education and a constant hum (all features of civilisation) are not 'civilised'.
That is very problematic, as it assumes the primacy of your own system of judging what constitutes 'civilisation' and does not admit the possibility of any other.
But since you are talking about people who are very much 'other', that is absurd.
You also seem to suggest that the absence of all these things is, in fact, a lack.
These may not have been your intentions, of course, but they are implications nonetheless.
The value systems of people in 'uncivilised' areas may well differ altogether from our own but be completely valid on their own terms.
Don't conflate this with a romanticisation of poverty, but the San of southern Africa, for instance, have no concept of private property but would (and this is my assumption) nonetheless place unimaginably greater value on an untarred swathe of desert stretching to all horizons and the sight of the milky way in the night sky than they would value 'formal education' and modern 'entertainment'.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266651</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267455</id>
	<title>Re:I can see about 20</title>
	<author>AioKits</author>
	<datestamp>1244568900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I just recently got a new DSLR camera so now I'm playing around with all it's fancy features.  I figured I would see if I could get a picture of the Milky Way from my deck in Cambridge MA.  After processing the heck out of it I got about 20-30 stars... it was really kinda sad.</p></div><p>I can relate.  I got a DSLR camera a few weeks ago and have been reading up on it as well as playing with all the cool features.  Still disappointed on how much the city lights drown out all the stars.  I got a trip planned to a friend's farm out in the country to see if I can start getting some decent stars!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I just recently got a new DSLR camera so now I 'm playing around with all it 's fancy features .
I figured I would see if I could get a picture of the Milky Way from my deck in Cambridge MA .
After processing the heck out of it I got about 20-30 stars... it was really kinda sad.I can relate .
I got a DSLR camera a few weeks ago and have been reading up on it as well as playing with all the cool features .
Still disappointed on how much the city lights drown out all the stars .
I got a trip planned to a friend 's farm out in the country to see if I can start getting some decent stars !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just recently got a new DSLR camera so now I'm playing around with all it's fancy features.
I figured I would see if I could get a picture of the Milky Way from my deck in Cambridge MA.
After processing the heck out of it I got about 20-30 stars... it was really kinda sad.I can relate.
I got a DSLR camera a few weeks ago and have been reading up on it as well as playing with all the cool features.
Still disappointed on how much the city lights drown out all the stars.
I got a trip planned to a friend's farm out in the country to see if I can start getting some decent stars!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266557</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266607</id>
	<title>Duh...</title>
	<author>DarrenBaker</author>
	<datestamp>1244566140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, no.... Look *UP*, stupid!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , no.... Look * UP * , stupid !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, no.... Look *UP*, stupid!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268243</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>JCSoRocks</author>
	<datestamp>1244572020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>A) If you look at a photo of <a href="https://www.eere-pmc.energy.gov/PMC\_News/images/night-map.gif" title="energy.gov">Earth at night</a> [energy.gov], you'll see why a clear view of the night sky is <i>not</i> just a train-ride to the suburbs away.  Huge swaths of land are blanketed in artificial light.</p>  </div><p>I live outside a relatively small metro area (1.5 million or so) and even from a good 60 miles away you can see the glow of the city. I will attest to the fact that you can't just drive a short distance away and see anything. You certainly can't expect to be able to take any sort of metro area mass transit and get far enough away to see anything. When I was younger I remember camping in more remote areas and spending hours staring at the stars. Kids in the city are missing out!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>A ) If you look at a photo of Earth at night [ energy.gov ] , you 'll see why a clear view of the night sky is not just a train-ride to the suburbs away .
Huge swaths of land are blanketed in artificial light .
I live outside a relatively small metro area ( 1.5 million or so ) and even from a good 60 miles away you can see the glow of the city .
I will attest to the fact that you ca n't just drive a short distance away and see anything .
You certainly ca n't expect to be able to take any sort of metro area mass transit and get far enough away to see anything .
When I was younger I remember camping in more remote areas and spending hours staring at the stars .
Kids in the city are missing out !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A) If you look at a photo of Earth at night [energy.gov], you'll see why a clear view of the night sky is not just a train-ride to the suburbs away.
Huge swaths of land are blanketed in artificial light.
I live outside a relatively small metro area (1.5 million or so) and even from a good 60 miles away you can see the glow of the city.
I will attest to the fact that you can't just drive a short distance away and see anything.
You certainly can't expect to be able to take any sort of metro area mass transit and get far enough away to see anything.
When I was younger I remember camping in more remote areas and spending hours staring at the stars.
Kids in the city are missing out!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267431</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267781</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>braindrainbahrain</author>
	<datestamp>1244570220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My guesses:
<p>
a)  It's a matter of how far you have to move.  Living in the Northeast USA, I'd have to travel a few hours to see a decent night sky, and likely many, many hours to see the milky way.
</p><p>
b) I don't know about light pollution measurements, but I think the intent is to have light fixtures that direct the light downwards (where it is useful) instead of in all directions where it ends up causing the haze that interferes with our view of the sky.  See the International Dark Sky Association for further info.
</p><p>
c) I think it is just a matter that it's nicer have the view than not have it.  Setting aside all the mumbo jumbo about sense of wonder and connection to the cosmos, it's a downright beautiful view, like seeing a beautiful mountain range or sea shore.  Seeing the milky way is a small enhancement to life which could be enjoyed from a lot more places than is currently possible.
</p><p>
Someone (I forget who) proposed we turn off our lights (as much as possible without compromising safety) just one night a year.  I, for one, second that motion.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My guesses : a ) It 's a matter of how far you have to move .
Living in the Northeast USA , I 'd have to travel a few hours to see a decent night sky , and likely many , many hours to see the milky way .
b ) I do n't know about light pollution measurements , but I think the intent is to have light fixtures that direct the light downwards ( where it is useful ) instead of in all directions where it ends up causing the haze that interferes with our view of the sky .
See the International Dark Sky Association for further info .
c ) I think it is just a matter that it 's nicer have the view than not have it .
Setting aside all the mumbo jumbo about sense of wonder and connection to the cosmos , it 's a downright beautiful view , like seeing a beautiful mountain range or sea shore .
Seeing the milky way is a small enhancement to life which could be enjoyed from a lot more places than is currently possible .
Someone ( I forget who ) proposed we turn off our lights ( as much as possible without compromising safety ) just one night a year .
I , for one , second that motion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My guesses:

a)  It's a matter of how far you have to move.
Living in the Northeast USA, I'd have to travel a few hours to see a decent night sky, and likely many, many hours to see the milky way.
b) I don't know about light pollution measurements, but I think the intent is to have light fixtures that direct the light downwards (where it is useful) instead of in all directions where it ends up causing the haze that interferes with our view of the sky.
See the International Dark Sky Association for further info.
c) I think it is just a matter that it's nicer have the view than not have it.
Setting aside all the mumbo jumbo about sense of wonder and connection to the cosmos, it's a downright beautiful view, like seeing a beautiful mountain range or sea shore.
Seeing the milky way is a small enhancement to life which could be enjoyed from a lot more places than is currently possible.
Someone (I forget who) proposed we turn off our lights (as much as possible without compromising safety) just one night a year.
I, for one, second that motion.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266617</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244566200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I live in Amsterdam, and I'm happy if I can see more than just Venus and Jupiter.</p><p>The first time I went on vacation to Africa (south-western Sahara) was a revelation! I didn't just see stars, I saw a gigantic haze across the sky. Cityboy had never seen anything like that.</p><p>Cool detail about that vaction (to Timbuctoo, by the way): our group had a retired British nerd who'd worked for Brittish intelligence and could explain how to find various interesting stars when starting from Orion's belt. It was amazing is so many different ways.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I live in Amsterdam , and I 'm happy if I can see more than just Venus and Jupiter.The first time I went on vacation to Africa ( south-western Sahara ) was a revelation !
I did n't just see stars , I saw a gigantic haze across the sky .
Cityboy had never seen anything like that.Cool detail about that vaction ( to Timbuctoo , by the way ) : our group had a retired British nerd who 'd worked for Brittish intelligence and could explain how to find various interesting stars when starting from Orion 's belt .
It was amazing is so many different ways .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live in Amsterdam, and I'm happy if I can see more than just Venus and Jupiter.The first time I went on vacation to Africa (south-western Sahara) was a revelation!
I didn't just see stars, I saw a gigantic haze across the sky.
Cityboy had never seen anything like that.Cool detail about that vaction (to Timbuctoo, by the way): our group had a retired British nerd who'd worked for Brittish intelligence and could explain how to find various interesting stars when starting from Orion's belt.
It was amazing is so many different ways.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266475</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28278023</id>
	<title>Re:Uggg</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244640780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Nonsense. All the energy and resources wasted on light pollution could easily boost local municipalities resource pool. This could be used for feeding the poor or whatever, although the bureaucrats would probably increase their bonus for the year. Stop hating science because of your obvious biases. Reducing pollution and thus saving resources and money is obviously a smart thing to do; regardless of any other arbitrary scenario you blindly put forth like an old man walking through a heavy growth elderberry forest at night. Light pollution also effects other animals other than humans! Won't somebody please think of the birds, flowers, zooplankton, frogs, salamanders, and sea turtles?! Four to five million birds die every year in the U.S. by hitting tall illuminated objects (like skyscrapers), but I guess genocide is okay as long as it's another species... right?<br>
Fourty minutes? Yeah, right! If you're in the right country, like not the U.S (or most of it).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Nonsense .
All the energy and resources wasted on light pollution could easily boost local municipalities resource pool .
This could be used for feeding the poor or whatever , although the bureaucrats would probably increase their bonus for the year .
Stop hating science because of your obvious biases .
Reducing pollution and thus saving resources and money is obviously a smart thing to do ; regardless of any other arbitrary scenario you blindly put forth like an old man walking through a heavy growth elderberry forest at night .
Light pollution also effects other animals other than humans !
Wo n't somebody please think of the birds , flowers , zooplankton , frogs , salamanders , and sea turtles ? !
Four to five million birds die every year in the U.S. by hitting tall illuminated objects ( like skyscrapers ) , but I guess genocide is okay as long as it 's another species... right ? Fourty minutes ?
Yeah , right !
If you 're in the right country , like not the U.S ( or most of it ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nonsense.
All the energy and resources wasted on light pollution could easily boost local municipalities resource pool.
This could be used for feeding the poor or whatever, although the bureaucrats would probably increase their bonus for the year.
Stop hating science because of your obvious biases.
Reducing pollution and thus saving resources and money is obviously a smart thing to do; regardless of any other arbitrary scenario you blindly put forth like an old man walking through a heavy growth elderberry forest at night.
Light pollution also effects other animals other than humans!
Won't somebody please think of the birds, flowers, zooplankton, frogs, salamanders, and sea turtles?!
Four to five million birds die every year in the U.S. by hitting tall illuminated objects (like skyscrapers), but I guess genocide is okay as long as it's another species... right?
Fourty minutes?
Yeah, right!
If you're in the right country, like not the U.S (or most of it).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267851</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269741</id>
	<title>Re:Aaah... the lucky, lucky, people...</title>
	<author>An IPv6 obsessed guy</author>
	<datestamp>1244577300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't want to be crass, but if it sounds so wonderful, you should vacation there and then move there if you love it.

Personally, I live in NYC and spend a lot of time in northern Maine, and while I crave the solitude and quiet and darkness from time to time, experience shows that I can only take it for a couple of weeks at a time.  I start going stir crazy after that.  I guess I like electricity more than I will admit to myself.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't want to be crass , but if it sounds so wonderful , you should vacation there and then move there if you love it .
Personally , I live in NYC and spend a lot of time in northern Maine , and while I crave the solitude and quiet and darkness from time to time , experience shows that I can only take it for a couple of weeks at a time .
I start going stir crazy after that .
I guess I like electricity more than I will admit to myself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't want to be crass, but if it sounds so wonderful, you should vacation there and then move there if you love it.
Personally, I live in NYC and spend a lot of time in northern Maine, and while I crave the solitude and quiet and darkness from time to time, experience shows that I can only take it for a couple of weeks at a time.
I start going stir crazy after that.
I guess I like electricity more than I will admit to myself.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266651</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267541</id>
	<title>80\% of the planet has no street lights</title>
	<author>goretexguy</author>
	<datestamp>1244569200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>...is what this astronomer is *really* saying. More lights means less crime and better living conditions, people! The US Congress needs to use some of the stimulus money on a new "White Skies" program to rid the world of darkness and terror.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...is what this astronomer is * really * saying .
More lights means less crime and better living conditions , people !
The US Congress needs to use some of the stimulus money on a new " White Skies " program to rid the world of darkness and terror .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...is what this astronomer is *really* saying.
More lights means less crime and better living conditions, people!
The US Congress needs to use some of the stimulus money on a new "White Skies" program to rid the world of darkness and terror.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270397</id>
	<title>Trade offs</title>
	<author>rossz</author>
	<datestamp>1244579820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can move somewhere were you can have an incredible, soul shaking view of the night sky.  Or you can have the convenience of popping down to the convenience store at 3am for snacks.  It's unlikely you'll ever get both.  Places that have the best night views are trying to kill you with malaria and dangerous animals.  Places without the night view have supermarkets, nightclubs, schools for your kids, and (damn) pollution.</p><p>So what is important to you?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You can move somewhere were you can have an incredible , soul shaking view of the night sky .
Or you can have the convenience of popping down to the convenience store at 3am for snacks .
It 's unlikely you 'll ever get both .
Places that have the best night views are trying to kill you with malaria and dangerous animals .
Places without the night view have supermarkets , nightclubs , schools for your kids , and ( damn ) pollution.So what is important to you ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can move somewhere were you can have an incredible, soul shaking view of the night sky.
Or you can have the convenience of popping down to the convenience store at 3am for snacks.
It's unlikely you'll ever get both.
Places that have the best night views are trying to kill you with malaria and dangerous animals.
Places without the night view have supermarkets, nightclubs, schools for your kids, and (damn) pollution.So what is important to you?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267917</id>
	<title>Re:Aaah... the lucky, lucky, people...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244570820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You sound like a faggot when you say it that way.</p><p>Malda, can we get a new "Faggot" mod?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You sound like a faggot when you say it that way.Malda , can we get a new " Faggot " mod ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You sound like a faggot when you say it that way.Malda, can we get a new "Faggot" mod?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266651</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266687</id>
	<title>Uh...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244566380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wait, you can see the milky way at night?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wait , you can see the milky way at night ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wait, you can see the milky way at night?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268801</id>
	<title>The problem is...</title>
	<author>HikingStick</author>
	<datestamp>1244574000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>The problem is that some people just don't get it.  They don't take the time to look at this universe in awe and wonder and simply don't care about being able to see the Milky Way at night.  They're not bad people.  They're just ignorant.<br> <br>If you live in a smaller town and even suggest the concept of "light pollution", people look at you and assume you are some sort of left-leaning-environmental-wacko.  It doesn't matter how conservative your politics are--some people hear you discuss "light pollution" and they lump you into the same camp as all of the "tree huggers", "greens", "liberals", "communists", or whatever other groups they hold as "the enemy".  I've even advocated just going a few nights a year without lights, coinciding with various meteor showers.  Again, I must be a "nut job".  After all, there's "no such thing as light pollution". <br> <br>Of course, it doesn't help if you live in a town that is home to a major manufacturer of lighting components for public spaces and industry, either.  Then such "light pollution" comments are viewed as attacks on the town's economy, too.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is that some people just do n't get it .
They do n't take the time to look at this universe in awe and wonder and simply do n't care about being able to see the Milky Way at night .
They 're not bad people .
They 're just ignorant .
If you live in a smaller town and even suggest the concept of " light pollution " , people look at you and assume you are some sort of left-leaning-environmental-wacko .
It does n't matter how conservative your politics are--some people hear you discuss " light pollution " and they lump you into the same camp as all of the " tree huggers " , " greens " , " liberals " , " communists " , or whatever other groups they hold as " the enemy " .
I 've even advocated just going a few nights a year without lights , coinciding with various meteor showers .
Again , I must be a " nut job " .
After all , there 's " no such thing as light pollution " .
Of course , it does n't help if you live in a town that is home to a major manufacturer of lighting components for public spaces and industry , either .
Then such " light pollution " comments are viewed as attacks on the town 's economy , too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is that some people just don't get it.
They don't take the time to look at this universe in awe and wonder and simply don't care about being able to see the Milky Way at night.
They're not bad people.
They're just ignorant.
If you live in a smaller town and even suggest the concept of "light pollution", people look at you and assume you are some sort of left-leaning-environmental-wacko.
It doesn't matter how conservative your politics are--some people hear you discuss "light pollution" and they lump you into the same camp as all of the "tree huggers", "greens", "liberals", "communists", or whatever other groups they hold as "the enemy".
I've even advocated just going a few nights a year without lights, coinciding with various meteor showers.
Again, I must be a "nut job".
After all, there's "no such thing as light pollution".
Of course, it doesn't help if you live in a town that is home to a major manufacturer of lighting components for public spaces and industry, either.
Then such "light pollution" comments are viewed as attacks on the town's economy, too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28277397</id>
	<title>The (far) future ...</title>
	<author>smoker2</author>
	<datestamp>1244634120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If there was ever such a thing as a Dyson Sphere, we would never see the stars again. Or if we enclosed the planet like Asimovs Trantor. Only the wealthy and privileged would get to see the sky let alone the stars. I can imagine that in the interests of gathering solar energy and increased efficiency, we can look forward to a time when the whole earth is exposed to sunlight constantly instead of 12 hours a day. Large mirrors constructed in space that orbit the earth once per year keeping the "night" side lit. Once again, we would not see the stars.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If there was ever such a thing as a Dyson Sphere , we would never see the stars again .
Or if we enclosed the planet like Asimovs Trantor .
Only the wealthy and privileged would get to see the sky let alone the stars .
I can imagine that in the interests of gathering solar energy and increased efficiency , we can look forward to a time when the whole earth is exposed to sunlight constantly instead of 12 hours a day .
Large mirrors constructed in space that orbit the earth once per year keeping the " night " side lit .
Once again , we would not see the stars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If there was ever such a thing as a Dyson Sphere, we would never see the stars again.
Or if we enclosed the planet like Asimovs Trantor.
Only the wealthy and privileged would get to see the sky let alone the stars.
I can imagine that in the interests of gathering solar energy and increased efficiency, we can look forward to a time when the whole earth is exposed to sunlight constantly instead of 12 hours a day.
Large mirrors constructed in space that orbit the earth once per year keeping the "night" side lit.
Once again, we would not see the stars.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267891</id>
	<title>Re:You have to get away ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244570760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Cool, you were on a boat.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Cool , you were on a boat .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cool, you were on a boat.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266563</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266787</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>Lord Juan</author>
	<datestamp>1244566680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, I live in Mexico City and I'm lucky if I can see the blue sky.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , I live in Mexico City and I 'm lucky if I can see the blue sky .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, I live in Mexico City and I'm lucky if I can see the blue sky.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266475</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266773</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>T Murphy</author>
	<datestamp>1244566620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I saw a video of the night sky where you could see the center of the Milky Way move across - if you showed me that eight years ago I wouldn't believe it was real. Due to living near Chicago most of my life, for the longest time I typically only saw a few dozen stars, and thought only a few hundred were visible with the naked eye.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I saw a video of the night sky where you could see the center of the Milky Way move across - if you showed me that eight years ago I would n't believe it was real .
Due to living near Chicago most of my life , for the longest time I typically only saw a few dozen stars , and thought only a few hundred were visible with the naked eye .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I saw a video of the night sky where you could see the center of the Milky Way move across - if you showed me that eight years ago I wouldn't believe it was real.
Due to living near Chicago most of my life, for the longest time I typically only saw a few dozen stars, and thought only a few hundred were visible with the naked eye.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266475</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267589</id>
	<title>More light pollution = less interest in space?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244569380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've always wondered if there's some correlation between the increase in light pollution* and a decrease in the nation's interest in space exploration. Has a less visible and interesting night sky resulted in people no longer considering space an interesting frontier? For millenia men have looked up at the heavens and wondered what was out there and whether it was possible to visit those strange realms. Now that we have the technology, it seems as if a significant percentage of the population no longer cares. Is it because a smog- and light-filled nightsky no longer impells us to wonder?</p><p>Obviously, its not the only reason; space exploration is costly, dangerous and without immediate profit. But would there be a greater demand for space-travel if more people could see the stars?</p><p>* and yes, light pollution is pollution. It disrupts the life-cycle of many species, and is not entirely without effect on Man either (we are diurnal after all). It harms certain industries (albeit only a few small ones, like astronomy) and -in general- is not beautiful to look at. It may not be the most pressing form of pollution, but it is pollution nonetheless.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've always wondered if there 's some correlation between the increase in light pollution * and a decrease in the nation 's interest in space exploration .
Has a less visible and interesting night sky resulted in people no longer considering space an interesting frontier ?
For millenia men have looked up at the heavens and wondered what was out there and whether it was possible to visit those strange realms .
Now that we have the technology , it seems as if a significant percentage of the population no longer cares .
Is it because a smog- and light-filled nightsky no longer impells us to wonder ? Obviously , its not the only reason ; space exploration is costly , dangerous and without immediate profit .
But would there be a greater demand for space-travel if more people could see the stars ?
* and yes , light pollution is pollution .
It disrupts the life-cycle of many species , and is not entirely without effect on Man either ( we are diurnal after all ) .
It harms certain industries ( albeit only a few small ones , like astronomy ) and -in general- is not beautiful to look at .
It may not be the most pressing form of pollution , but it is pollution nonetheless .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've always wondered if there's some correlation between the increase in light pollution* and a decrease in the nation's interest in space exploration.
Has a less visible and interesting night sky resulted in people no longer considering space an interesting frontier?
For millenia men have looked up at the heavens and wondered what was out there and whether it was possible to visit those strange realms.
Now that we have the technology, it seems as if a significant percentage of the population no longer cares.
Is it because a smog- and light-filled nightsky no longer impells us to wonder?Obviously, its not the only reason; space exploration is costly, dangerous and without immediate profit.
But would there be a greater demand for space-travel if more people could see the stars?
* and yes, light pollution is pollution.
It disrupts the life-cycle of many species, and is not entirely without effect on Man either (we are diurnal after all).
It harms certain industries (albeit only a few small ones, like astronomy) and -in general- is not beautiful to look at.
It may not be the most pressing form of pollution, but it is pollution nonetheless.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28274173</id>
	<title>Huh?</title>
	<author>Oldav</author>
	<datestamp>1244559240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>On a clear night I can see a fabulous array of stars at Waikerie in South Aust.

Only 2 hours from the nearest city!</htmltext>
<tokenext>On a clear night I can see a fabulous array of stars at Waikerie in South Aust .
Only 2 hours from the nearest city !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On a clear night I can see a fabulous array of stars at Waikerie in South Aust.
Only 2 hours from the nearest city!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267485</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>littlefoo</author>
	<datestamp>1244569020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I take issue with a number of things here...

A) Is this 1/5th immobile? Can they not hop a commuter train to the suburbs or something?</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
Um - no... well at least not in the UK. We don't appear to have lots of these 'commuter trains' of which you speak - neither are we automatically supplied with driving licenses and automobiles when we turn 11 (or something similar - must be true, i've seen it on the TV). We mostly have, here, something called 'buses', which works like any regular form of transport except for giving you the ability to move from where you are, to where you want to be, in any reasonable time period. These generally operate in and around the cities, which won't really get you to anywhere without light pollution anyway... this is because of all the lights in the cities here. The lights are on to stop all the people who live in the cities bumping into each other at night, and there are a LOT of people in them. They probably moved to the cities as there are an awful lot of buildings in them which were probably easier to fill up than constructing their own somewhere 'out in the sticks'.
</p><p>
This can make it quite difficult for some folk to get out of the cities - and hence to somewhere where they can see things in the sky at night
</p><blockquote><div><p>I'd really like to know. I know that when I go out to see Dad in Wyoming the difference is absolutely noticeable, but I've always assumed that the same could be gained by finding some road-side location out in 'the sticks'.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
We <i>do</i> have some road-side locations, a few of which are "out in 'the sticks'" - but not always the ability to get there at all easily. Perhaps we need to be more like Wyoming, or something. That's the problem with most of the world you see - it's often infuriatingly different from where you live.
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I take issue with a number of things here.. . A ) Is this 1/5th immobile ?
Can they not hop a commuter train to the suburbs or something ?
Um - no... well at least not in the UK .
We do n't appear to have lots of these 'commuter trains ' of which you speak - neither are we automatically supplied with driving licenses and automobiles when we turn 11 ( or something similar - must be true , i 've seen it on the TV ) .
We mostly have , here , something called 'buses ' , which works like any regular form of transport except for giving you the ability to move from where you are , to where you want to be , in any reasonable time period .
These generally operate in and around the cities , which wo n't really get you to anywhere without light pollution anyway... this is because of all the lights in the cities here .
The lights are on to stop all the people who live in the cities bumping into each other at night , and there are a LOT of people in them .
They probably moved to the cities as there are an awful lot of buildings in them which were probably easier to fill up than constructing their own somewhere 'out in the sticks' .
This can make it quite difficult for some folk to get out of the cities - and hence to somewhere where they can see things in the sky at night I 'd really like to know .
I know that when I go out to see Dad in Wyoming the difference is absolutely noticeable , but I 've always assumed that the same could be gained by finding some road-side location out in 'the sticks' .
We do have some road-side locations , a few of which are " out in 'the sticks ' " - but not always the ability to get there at all easily .
Perhaps we need to be more like Wyoming , or something .
That 's the problem with most of the world you see - it 's often infuriatingly different from where you live .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I take issue with a number of things here...

A) Is this 1/5th immobile?
Can they not hop a commuter train to the suburbs or something?
Um - no... well at least not in the UK.
We don't appear to have lots of these 'commuter trains' of which you speak - neither are we automatically supplied with driving licenses and automobiles when we turn 11 (or something similar - must be true, i've seen it on the TV).
We mostly have, here, something called 'buses', which works like any regular form of transport except for giving you the ability to move from where you are, to where you want to be, in any reasonable time period.
These generally operate in and around the cities, which won't really get you to anywhere without light pollution anyway... this is because of all the lights in the cities here.
The lights are on to stop all the people who live in the cities bumping into each other at night, and there are a LOT of people in them.
They probably moved to the cities as there are an awful lot of buildings in them which were probably easier to fill up than constructing their own somewhere 'out in the sticks'.
This can make it quite difficult for some folk to get out of the cities - and hence to somewhere where they can see things in the sky at night
I'd really like to know.
I know that when I go out to see Dad in Wyoming the difference is absolutely noticeable, but I've always assumed that the same could be gained by finding some road-side location out in 'the sticks'.
We do have some road-side locations, a few of which are "out in 'the sticks'" - but not always the ability to get there at all easily.
Perhaps we need to be more like Wyoming, or something.
That's the problem with most of the world you see - it's often infuriatingly different from where you live.

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268911</id>
	<title>The milkyway?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244574360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I live in LA and I can't even see the stars.</p><p>Starlight, star bright,<br>first and only star I'll see tonight<br>Wish I may, wish I might . . .</p><p>Yeah in LA we see STAR.. the north star.  That's it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I live in LA and I ca n't even see the stars.Starlight , star bright,first and only star I 'll see tonightWish I may , wish I might .
. .Yeah in LA we see STAR.. the north star .
That 's it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live in LA and I can't even see the stars.Starlight, star bright,first and only star I'll see tonightWish I may, wish I might .
. .Yeah in LA we see STAR.. the north star.
That's it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266443</id>
	<title>Well... I could.</title>
	<author>ShadowBlasko</author>
	<datestamp>1244565660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>And then they built that super Wal-Mart 1/4 mile from my house. Now I am lucky if I can see Sirus or anything of a less than amazing magnitude. <br> <br> Poor kids, I wish they could see what they are missing.</htmltext>
<tokenext>And then they built that super Wal-Mart 1/4 mile from my house .
Now I am lucky if I can see Sirus or anything of a less than amazing magnitude .
Poor kids , I wish they could see what they are missing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And then they built that super Wal-Mart 1/4 mile from my house.
Now I am lucky if I can see Sirus or anything of a less than amazing magnitude.
Poor kids, I wish they could see what they are missing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267173</id>
	<title>Re:You have to get away ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244567880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Uluru-KataTjuta National Park, Northern Territory, Australia.<br>It was amazing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Uluru-KataTjuta National Park , Northern Territory , Australia.It was amazing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Uluru-KataTjuta National Park, Northern Territory, Australia.It was amazing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266563</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28284927</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244626860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Aha! your fancy public transportation fails you now, puny European!</p><p>mwahahahah</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Aha !
your fancy public transportation fails you now , puny European ! mwahahahah</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Aha!
your fancy public transportation fails you now, puny European!mwahahahah</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267883</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269239</id>
	<title>Re:Uggg</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244575500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You make some good points, however...</p><p>In addition to the unfortunate side effect of losing the night sky, that light is also wasting massive amounts of electricity (adding to what you refer to as the 'other' kind of pollution).</p><p>Plus, your suggestion of "driving to the woods" is in direct conflict with your priority of "reducing traffic", not to mention the whole 'other' kind of pollution issue that brings up.  Plus, mass temporary migration of city dwellers who have no appreciation of what "dark" is just means they'll bring their lanterns and leave them on all night and ruin the night sky out in the sticks, too.</p><p>The loss of the night sky changes people's behavior.  They think they need massive amounts of light anywhere and everywhere they go.  They lose appreciation for simple darkness.  It can even mess with getting a good night's sleep, which leads to a whole bunch of "more serious" problems.</p><p>Why does a Target or Wal-Mart parking lot, or a sports arena or field, or even a sidewalk, have to be lit up to full-on daylight brightness?  Isn't it enough to light them so they are bright enough to see in, which would be about 1/4 of what most places tend to use today?  Why do we light them nearly to the point of needing sunglasses, or do retail executives like Corey Hart songs that much?  "I wear my sunglasses at night..."</p><p>And why don't more places use reflective shields on the top of their lights to keep most of the light in the parking lot, rather than lighting up areas 1/2 mile away from their store and parking lot?  They'd be able to get away with a lot less light (and electricity) that way.</p><p>Why do stretches of Interstate highway need bright lights lighting them up all night, when almost no one is using them?  Isn't that what headlights are for?  Are the 5 to 6 cars that go by in the average hour really benefiting from the light?</p><p>And I agree that light pollution is a lesser evil than many other problems we're faced with.  However, that doesn't mean it's not a problem, and it doesn't mean that paying attention to it necessarily means we're ignoring more serious problems.  It means we're capable of dealing with more than one problem at a time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You make some good points , however...In addition to the unfortunate side effect of losing the night sky , that light is also wasting massive amounts of electricity ( adding to what you refer to as the 'other ' kind of pollution ) .Plus , your suggestion of " driving to the woods " is in direct conflict with your priority of " reducing traffic " , not to mention the whole 'other ' kind of pollution issue that brings up .
Plus , mass temporary migration of city dwellers who have no appreciation of what " dark " is just means they 'll bring their lanterns and leave them on all night and ruin the night sky out in the sticks , too.The loss of the night sky changes people 's behavior .
They think they need massive amounts of light anywhere and everywhere they go .
They lose appreciation for simple darkness .
It can even mess with getting a good night 's sleep , which leads to a whole bunch of " more serious " problems.Why does a Target or Wal-Mart parking lot , or a sports arena or field , or even a sidewalk , have to be lit up to full-on daylight brightness ?
Is n't it enough to light them so they are bright enough to see in , which would be about 1/4 of what most places tend to use today ?
Why do we light them nearly to the point of needing sunglasses , or do retail executives like Corey Hart songs that much ?
" I wear my sunglasses at night... " And why do n't more places use reflective shields on the top of their lights to keep most of the light in the parking lot , rather than lighting up areas 1/2 mile away from their store and parking lot ?
They 'd be able to get away with a lot less light ( and electricity ) that way.Why do stretches of Interstate highway need bright lights lighting them up all night , when almost no one is using them ?
Is n't that what headlights are for ?
Are the 5 to 6 cars that go by in the average hour really benefiting from the light ? And I agree that light pollution is a lesser evil than many other problems we 're faced with .
However , that does n't mean it 's not a problem , and it does n't mean that paying attention to it necessarily means we 're ignoring more serious problems .
It means we 're capable of dealing with more than one problem at a time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You make some good points, however...In addition to the unfortunate side effect of losing the night sky, that light is also wasting massive amounts of electricity (adding to what you refer to as the 'other' kind of pollution).Plus, your suggestion of "driving to the woods" is in direct conflict with your priority of "reducing traffic", not to mention the whole 'other' kind of pollution issue that brings up.
Plus, mass temporary migration of city dwellers who have no appreciation of what "dark" is just means they'll bring their lanterns and leave them on all night and ruin the night sky out in the sticks, too.The loss of the night sky changes people's behavior.
They think they need massive amounts of light anywhere and everywhere they go.
They lose appreciation for simple darkness.
It can even mess with getting a good night's sleep, which leads to a whole bunch of "more serious" problems.Why does a Target or Wal-Mart parking lot, or a sports arena or field, or even a sidewalk, have to be lit up to full-on daylight brightness?
Isn't it enough to light them so they are bright enough to see in, which would be about 1/4 of what most places tend to use today?
Why do we light them nearly to the point of needing sunglasses, or do retail executives like Corey Hart songs that much?
"I wear my sunglasses at night..."And why don't more places use reflective shields on the top of their lights to keep most of the light in the parking lot, rather than lighting up areas 1/2 mile away from their store and parking lot?
They'd be able to get away with a lot less light (and electricity) that way.Why do stretches of Interstate highway need bright lights lighting them up all night, when almost no one is using them?
Isn't that what headlights are for?
Are the 5 to 6 cars that go by in the average hour really benefiting from the light?And I agree that light pollution is a lesser evil than many other problems we're faced with.
However, that doesn't mean it's not a problem, and it doesn't mean that paying attention to it necessarily means we're ignoring more serious problems.
It means we're capable of dealing with more than one problem at a time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267851</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28277447</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244634900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"When is light 'pollution'" I can answer this question at least (although I believe you left out the it). I would say light pollution is when you get pissed off at the moon for being to bright to see the stars. I had a great conversation with the woman at the local store today who was saying the moon rises one hour later every day after full. I am dying to try out this theory! If it is right then I get at least five or six days to watch the stars a lunar month and  my only next concern is clouds.</p><p>PS: excuse me for any mistakes in the post. Two bottles of wine, ya know?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" When is light 'pollution ' " I can answer this question at least ( although I believe you left out the it ) .
I would say light pollution is when you get pissed off at the moon for being to bright to see the stars .
I had a great conversation with the woman at the local store today who was saying the moon rises one hour later every day after full .
I am dying to try out this theory !
If it is right then I get at least five or six days to watch the stars a lunar month and my only next concern is clouds.PS : excuse me for any mistakes in the post .
Two bottles of wine , ya know ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"When is light 'pollution'" I can answer this question at least (although I believe you left out the it).
I would say light pollution is when you get pissed off at the moon for being to bright to see the stars.
I had a great conversation with the woman at the local store today who was saying the moon rises one hour later every day after full.
I am dying to try out this theory!
If it is right then I get at least five or six days to watch the stars a lunar month and  my only next concern is clouds.PS: excuse me for any mistakes in the post.
Two bottles of wine, ya know?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269067</id>
	<title>The two are not exclusive</title>
	<author>petes\_PoV</author>
	<datestamp>1244574960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There's nothing to stop people being able to enjoy both. Or at least have the option (which is what's lacking at present) to enjoy both.
<p>
Properly designed outdoors lighting is widely available. It directs light <b>downwards</b>, towards the places where the people are - not upwards, to waste energy by illuminating the sky.
</p><p>So far as being only a 30 minute drive to a good sky - ha! you don't really live in a metropolis if you're that close to a dark sky. Where I live there's no possibility of seeing the milky way properly with less than a 300 mile drive in any direction (although 2 directions are bound by the sea). Now <b>that's</b> light pollution.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's nothing to stop people being able to enjoy both .
Or at least have the option ( which is what 's lacking at present ) to enjoy both .
Properly designed outdoors lighting is widely available .
It directs light downwards , towards the places where the people are - not upwards , to waste energy by illuminating the sky .
So far as being only a 30 minute drive to a good sky - ha !
you do n't really live in a metropolis if you 're that close to a dark sky .
Where I live there 's no possibility of seeing the milky way properly with less than a 300 mile drive in any direction ( although 2 directions are bound by the sea ) .
Now that 's light pollution .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's nothing to stop people being able to enjoy both.
Or at least have the option (which is what's lacking at present) to enjoy both.
Properly designed outdoors lighting is widely available.
It directs light downwards, towards the places where the people are - not upwards, to waste energy by illuminating the sky.
So far as being only a 30 minute drive to a good sky - ha!
you don't really live in a metropolis if you're that close to a dark sky.
Where I live there's no possibility of seeing the milky way properly with less than a 300 mile drive in any direction (although 2 directions are bound by the sea).
Now that's light pollution.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268047</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266567</id>
	<title>Light pollution or not...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244566080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I can almost always spot the Milky Way.<br>
<br>
It's usually right next to the Snickers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I can almost always spot the Milky Way .
It 's usually right next to the Snickers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can almost always spot the Milky Way.
It's usually right next to the Snickers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270751</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244538180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I realize this may not be convenient for you, but they aren't "motorways".  With the exception of highways cyclists have as much right to use them as motorists.</p><p>Cyclists should indeed be using reflectors and lights (as should the cars).</p><p>That said, I'll be happy to take my bike off the streets as soon as there are sufficient bike paths to get me where I'm going.  Of course, the same anti-cyclist interests that want us off the streets, also keep blocking initiatives to get those trails built.  Funny that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I realize this may not be convenient for you , but they are n't " motorways " .
With the exception of highways cyclists have as much right to use them as motorists.Cyclists should indeed be using reflectors and lights ( as should the cars ) .That said , I 'll be happy to take my bike off the streets as soon as there are sufficient bike paths to get me where I 'm going .
Of course , the same anti-cyclist interests that want us off the streets , also keep blocking initiatives to get those trails built .
Funny that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I realize this may not be convenient for you, but they aren't "motorways".
With the exception of highways cyclists have as much right to use them as motorists.Cyclists should indeed be using reflectors and lights (as should the cars).That said, I'll be happy to take my bike off the streets as soon as there are sufficient bike paths to get me where I'm going.
Of course, the same anti-cyclist interests that want us off the streets, also keep blocking initiatives to get those trails built.
Funny that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267537</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266645</id>
	<title>It's sad, really.</title>
	<author>XPeter</author>
	<datestamp>1244566260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I live less than 10 minutes from NYC, and all the light pollution that it emits carries over to my house and you can barely see any stars at night.</p><p>A few years ago, I became interested in astronomy and bought a telescope. After spending an entire day assembling the thing when I looked through it at night I couldn't see a damn thing; only the moon\. It was one of the most depressing days of my childhood.</p><p>The sad part is as long as New York is New York, I won't be able to see the stars. But hey, maybe the economy will get so bad that Wall Street closes up and everyone moves out<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I live less than 10 minutes from NYC , and all the light pollution that it emits carries over to my house and you can barely see any stars at night.A few years ago , I became interested in astronomy and bought a telescope .
After spending an entire day assembling the thing when I looked through it at night I could n't see a damn thing ; only the moon \ .
It was one of the most depressing days of my childhood.The sad part is as long as New York is New York , I wo n't be able to see the stars .
But hey , maybe the economy will get so bad that Wall Street closes up and everyone moves out : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live less than 10 minutes from NYC, and all the light pollution that it emits carries over to my house and you can barely see any stars at night.A few years ago, I became interested in astronomy and bought a telescope.
After spending an entire day assembling the thing when I looked through it at night I couldn't see a damn thing; only the moon\.
It was one of the most depressing days of my childhood.The sad part is as long as New York is New York, I won't be able to see the stars.
But hey, maybe the economy will get so bad that Wall Street closes up and everyone moves out :)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268143</id>
	<title>put it in the context of what concerns people now</title>
	<author>supernova87a</author>
	<datestamp>1244571660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>One thing that hasn't been emphasized so far as I've read, is not so much even the loss of dark sky (which is a shame for people who would have their eyes opened), but rather the waste of energy and light going up into the sky.
<br> <br>
As in, if lights were properly aimed/covered/baffled, you could probably spend 10-20\% less energy on lighting.  Is that not a waste to be doing the old way then?  <br> <br>
As they have done in some municipalities, have legislation that only well-baffled outdoor lamps be sold or used.  Who would this hurt, lamp manufacturers?  Even?   Would it be such an encroachment on the right to choose a wasteful lamp housing? <br> <br>
You know the lamp posts with bulbs+lenses that shine light everywhere -- the kind with 360deg housings.  Why?  The birds don't care about the light -- it's people underneath.  Unless you run an airport, guiding planes into land, cover that shit up!  <br> <br>
As in many things today, we don't have to be virtuous or self-righteous about lofty issues before it's ripe to do so -- just ask people to begin by stopping the waste of precious resources.  I think everyone (aside from asshole investment bankers) can understand that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>One thing that has n't been emphasized so far as I 've read , is not so much even the loss of dark sky ( which is a shame for people who would have their eyes opened ) , but rather the waste of energy and light going up into the sky .
As in , if lights were properly aimed/covered/baffled , you could probably spend 10-20 \ % less energy on lighting .
Is that not a waste to be doing the old way then ?
As they have done in some municipalities , have legislation that only well-baffled outdoor lamps be sold or used .
Who would this hurt , lamp manufacturers ?
Even ? Would it be such an encroachment on the right to choose a wasteful lamp housing ?
You know the lamp posts with bulbs + lenses that shine light everywhere -- the kind with 360deg housings .
Why ? The birds do n't care about the light -- it 's people underneath .
Unless you run an airport , guiding planes into land , cover that shit up !
As in many things today , we do n't have to be virtuous or self-righteous about lofty issues before it 's ripe to do so -- just ask people to begin by stopping the waste of precious resources .
I think everyone ( aside from asshole investment bankers ) can understand that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One thing that hasn't been emphasized so far as I've read, is not so much even the loss of dark sky (which is a shame for people who would have their eyes opened), but rather the waste of energy and light going up into the sky.
As in, if lights were properly aimed/covered/baffled, you could probably spend 10-20\% less energy on lighting.
Is that not a waste to be doing the old way then?
As they have done in some municipalities, have legislation that only well-baffled outdoor lamps be sold or used.
Who would this hurt, lamp manufacturers?
Even?   Would it be such an encroachment on the right to choose a wasteful lamp housing?
You know the lamp posts with bulbs+lenses that shine light everywhere -- the kind with 360deg housings.
Why?  The birds don't care about the light -- it's people underneath.
Unless you run an airport, guiding planes into land, cover that shit up!
As in many things today, we don't have to be virtuous or self-righteous about lofty issues before it's ripe to do so -- just ask people to begin by stopping the waste of precious resources.
I think everyone (aside from asshole investment bankers) can understand that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267537</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244569200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i> I'm lucky if I can see cyclists and pedestrians after sunset.</i></p><p>Perhaps cyclists and pedestrians should stay off of MOTORWAYS, or at the very least wear reflective gear.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm lucky if I can see cyclists and pedestrians after sunset.Perhaps cyclists and pedestrians should stay off of MOTORWAYS , or at the very least wear reflective gear .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I'm lucky if I can see cyclists and pedestrians after sunset.Perhaps cyclists and pedestrians should stay off of MOTORWAYS, or at the very least wear reflective gear.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266863</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266975</id>
	<title>God help us!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244567280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is horrible news! People can't see the stars at night! We need to demand that government stop these evil power companies from providing electricity after the sun goes down. And we need to arrest anyone driving around at night with headlights on or anyone using flashlights or candles. And all these tall buildings that block our view of the night sky need to be torn down immediately! It is our constitutional right to be able to see the stars at night. When I sit outside of my cave in the freezing cold I can barely see a single star at all. All these modern conveniences. Who needs 'em!?! It's time we gave up all these new fangled gadgets and went back to the old ways.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is horrible news !
People ca n't see the stars at night !
We need to demand that government stop these evil power companies from providing electricity after the sun goes down .
And we need to arrest anyone driving around at night with headlights on or anyone using flashlights or candles .
And all these tall buildings that block our view of the night sky need to be torn down immediately !
It is our constitutional right to be able to see the stars at night .
When I sit outside of my cave in the freezing cold I can barely see a single star at all .
All these modern conveniences .
Who needs 'em ! ? !
It 's time we gave up all these new fangled gadgets and went back to the old ways .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is horrible news!
People can't see the stars at night!
We need to demand that government stop these evil power companies from providing electricity after the sun goes down.
And we need to arrest anyone driving around at night with headlights on or anyone using flashlights or candles.
And all these tall buildings that block our view of the night sky need to be torn down immediately!
It is our constitutional right to be able to see the stars at night.
When I sit outside of my cave in the freezing cold I can barely see a single star at all.
All these modern conveniences.
Who needs 'em!?!
It's time we gave up all these new fangled gadgets and went back to the old ways.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268211</id>
	<title>Re:Quit calling it "light pollution"</title>
	<author>Q-Hack!</author>
	<datestamp>1244571840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Living in big cities is pretty much a write off when considering light pollution.   However because of urban sprawl, it is a huge problem.  Eventually there will be no dark sites left to travel to.  I live in a desert town; 40 years ago I could walk out my back door and see the Milky Way quite well.  20 years ago I could see it, but to truly enjoy it required me to drive 20-30 miles out of town.  Now, I have to travel to a wilderness location more than 2 hours away.  When does it end?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Living in big cities is pretty much a write off when considering light pollution .
However because of urban sprawl , it is a huge problem .
Eventually there will be no dark sites left to travel to .
I live in a desert town ; 40 years ago I could walk out my back door and see the Milky Way quite well .
20 years ago I could see it , but to truly enjoy it required me to drive 20-30 miles out of town .
Now , I have to travel to a wilderness location more than 2 hours away .
When does it end ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Living in big cities is pretty much a write off when considering light pollution.
However because of urban sprawl, it is a huge problem.
Eventually there will be no dark sites left to travel to.
I live in a desert town; 40 years ago I could walk out my back door and see the Milky Way quite well.
20 years ago I could see it, but to truly enjoy it required me to drive 20-30 miles out of town.
Now, I have to travel to a wilderness location more than 2 hours away.
When does it end?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267099</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266475</id>
	<title>Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>FlyByPC</author>
	<datestamp>1244565780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Living in northern Philadelphia, I'm lucky if I can make out enough bright stars to see Orion or Ursa Major, let alone something like the Milky Way...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Living in northern Philadelphia , I 'm lucky if I can make out enough bright stars to see Orion or Ursa Major , let alone something like the Milky Way.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Living in northern Philadelphia, I'm lucky if I can make out enough bright stars to see Orion or Ursa Major, let alone something like the Milky Way...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267719</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>pcolaman</author>
	<datestamp>1244569920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What are these train things that you speak of?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What are these train things that you speak of ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What are these train things that you speak of?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268291</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Shihar</author>
	<datestamp>1244572140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>A) If you look at a photo of Earth at night [energy.gov], you'll see why a clear view of the night sky is not just a train-ride to the suburbs away. Huge swaths of land are blanketed in artificial light. By the logic you're presenting here, it wouldn't matter if we cut down all the trees as long as we had tree museums for people to go visit.</p> </div><p>If the only ecological consequence to cutting down the trees is that humans wouldn't be able to find them pretty, then yes, I would be a-okay with cutting more of them down.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>C) Seeing the wonder of the universe is a good thing. Living in a cave is not. Is that distinction so difficult to comprehend? "The rest is technology at work, for better or worse." Oh, so maybe you do grasp the point! Except that we don't have to just accept technology "for better or worse"; we can choose to use technology in ways that makes our lives better and not to use technology in ways that makes it worse.</p></div><p>The point you are missing is that generally when someone is "light polluting" it is for a reason.  Sure, it diminishes the view, but it is probably doing something else useful like lighting a room or a path.  I am fine with taking cheap common sense approaches to reducing how much light we pump into the sky.  I however have no desire to see us start going crazy trying to stamp out a "pollution" with a pretty minimal impact upon our lives.</p><p>I live in a city.  I choose to live in a city.  Can I see the milky way at night?  Nope.  But I can walk out my front door and be within a 15 minute walk of half a dozen universities, a greater variety of food than exists in many nations, and most important of all be in close proximity of a few hundred thousand of my fellow humans which is something I count as a very large plus.  I like how in the city it is always so bright that you would never think to bring a flashlight on a walk at night as I would in my birth town.  I'll happily trade seeing stars, as pretty as they are, for the joy of living surrounded by hundreds of thousands of other humans in a place where there is always activity 24/7.  If I want to see the stars (or lots of trees for that matter), I just jump in a train or in my car and drive a couple hours in one direction.</p><p>Forest, stars, darkness at night?  Eh, sounds like a nice place to visit.  I wouldn't want to live there.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>A ) If you look at a photo of Earth at night [ energy.gov ] , you 'll see why a clear view of the night sky is not just a train-ride to the suburbs away .
Huge swaths of land are blanketed in artificial light .
By the logic you 're presenting here , it would n't matter if we cut down all the trees as long as we had tree museums for people to go visit .
If the only ecological consequence to cutting down the trees is that humans would n't be able to find them pretty , then yes , I would be a-okay with cutting more of them down.C ) Seeing the wonder of the universe is a good thing .
Living in a cave is not .
Is that distinction so difficult to comprehend ?
" The rest is technology at work , for better or worse .
" Oh , so maybe you do grasp the point !
Except that we do n't have to just accept technology " for better or worse " ; we can choose to use technology in ways that makes our lives better and not to use technology in ways that makes it worse.The point you are missing is that generally when someone is " light polluting " it is for a reason .
Sure , it diminishes the view , but it is probably doing something else useful like lighting a room or a path .
I am fine with taking cheap common sense approaches to reducing how much light we pump into the sky .
I however have no desire to see us start going crazy trying to stamp out a " pollution " with a pretty minimal impact upon our lives.I live in a city .
I choose to live in a city .
Can I see the milky way at night ?
Nope. But I can walk out my front door and be within a 15 minute walk of half a dozen universities , a greater variety of food than exists in many nations , and most important of all be in close proximity of a few hundred thousand of my fellow humans which is something I count as a very large plus .
I like how in the city it is always so bright that you would never think to bring a flashlight on a walk at night as I would in my birth town .
I 'll happily trade seeing stars , as pretty as they are , for the joy of living surrounded by hundreds of thousands of other humans in a place where there is always activity 24/7 .
If I want to see the stars ( or lots of trees for that matter ) , I just jump in a train or in my car and drive a couple hours in one direction.Forest , stars , darkness at night ?
Eh , sounds like a nice place to visit .
I would n't want to live there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A) If you look at a photo of Earth at night [energy.gov], you'll see why a clear view of the night sky is not just a train-ride to the suburbs away.
Huge swaths of land are blanketed in artificial light.
By the logic you're presenting here, it wouldn't matter if we cut down all the trees as long as we had tree museums for people to go visit.
If the only ecological consequence to cutting down the trees is that humans wouldn't be able to find them pretty, then yes, I would be a-okay with cutting more of them down.C) Seeing the wonder of the universe is a good thing.
Living in a cave is not.
Is that distinction so difficult to comprehend?
"The rest is technology at work, for better or worse.
" Oh, so maybe you do grasp the point!
Except that we don't have to just accept technology "for better or worse"; we can choose to use technology in ways that makes our lives better and not to use technology in ways that makes it worse.The point you are missing is that generally when someone is "light polluting" it is for a reason.
Sure, it diminishes the view, but it is probably doing something else useful like lighting a room or a path.
I am fine with taking cheap common sense approaches to reducing how much light we pump into the sky.
I however have no desire to see us start going crazy trying to stamp out a "pollution" with a pretty minimal impact upon our lives.I live in a city.
I choose to live in a city.
Can I see the milky way at night?
Nope.  But I can walk out my front door and be within a 15 minute walk of half a dozen universities, a greater variety of food than exists in many nations, and most important of all be in close proximity of a few hundred thousand of my fellow humans which is something I count as a very large plus.
I like how in the city it is always so bright that you would never think to bring a flashlight on a walk at night as I would in my birth town.
I'll happily trade seeing stars, as pretty as they are, for the joy of living surrounded by hundreds of thousands of other humans in a place where there is always activity 24/7.
If I want to see the stars (or lots of trees for that matter), I just jump in a train or in my car and drive a couple hours in one direction.Forest, stars, darkness at night?
Eh, sounds like a nice place to visit.
I wouldn't want to live there.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267431</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268249</id>
	<title>Re:Aaah... the lucky, lucky, people...</title>
	<author>denzacar</author>
	<datestamp>1244572020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>During the war here in Bosnia even without blackouts (as in "turn of that light, the enemy is watching") we often had no more than couple of hours of electricity per day.<br>Me and my sister would often stare for hours at the stars which were the brightest I've ever seen and there was more of them than ever.<br>Cause not only was there no light pollution, but with scarcity of gasoline and any other kind of fuel the air was much cleaner.</p><p>Still, as soon as the power would come on I'd sit at my C64 to make up the lost time.</p><p>As for the San...<br>I am guessing that you have never actually spent more than couple of days away from the civilized world and its benefits - ranging from polio shots and penicillin to running water and safety of concrete.<br>Giving idyllic connotations to a neolithic life has often been a favorite pastime of people who have never actually had to grow, gather and hunt their own food or never had a chance to outlive 10 or so of their siblings by the time they are 14.</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmen" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmen</a> [wikipedia.org] </p><p><div class="quote"><p>Early spring was the hardest season - a hot dry period following the cool, dry winter.<br>Villages were concentrated around the waterholes, most plants were dead or dormant, and supplies of autumn nuts were exhausted.<br>Meat was particularly important in the dry months when wildlife could never range far from the receding waters.</p><p>Because of their low-fat diet, women typically had late first menstruations and did not begin bearing children until about 18 or 19 years of age.<br>Births were spaced four years apart, due to lack of enough breast milk and requirements of mobility that made feeding and carrying more than one child at a time difficult.</p></div><p><div class="quote"><p>In the 1990s, they switched to farming as a result of government-mandated modernization programs as well as the increased risks of a hunting and gathering lifestyle in the face of technological development.</p></div><p>Give them a generation or two and then try to take away that new way of life from them and see how they react.<br>Also - they did understand the concept of private property, they just didn't use barter or market economy. They exchanged gifts.<br>Which is fine for a neolithic way of life where everyone is from the same tribe/family anyway and all that there is to give has been gathered from the Earth.<br>Giving gifts, taking gifts and obligation to reciprocate is fine and dandy until <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66pTPWg\_wUw#t=8m38s" title="youtube.com">rare things of great value appear.</a> [youtube.com]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>During the war here in Bosnia even without blackouts ( as in " turn of that light , the enemy is watching " ) we often had no more than couple of hours of electricity per day.Me and my sister would often stare for hours at the stars which were the brightest I 've ever seen and there was more of them than ever.Cause not only was there no light pollution , but with scarcity of gasoline and any other kind of fuel the air was much cleaner.Still , as soon as the power would come on I 'd sit at my C64 to make up the lost time.As for the San...I am guessing that you have never actually spent more than couple of days away from the civilized world and its benefits - ranging from polio shots and penicillin to running water and safety of concrete.Giving idyllic connotations to a neolithic life has often been a favorite pastime of people who have never actually had to grow , gather and hunt their own food or never had a chance to outlive 10 or so of their siblings by the time they are 14.http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmen [ wikipedia.org ] Early spring was the hardest season - a hot dry period following the cool , dry winter.Villages were concentrated around the waterholes , most plants were dead or dormant , and supplies of autumn nuts were exhausted.Meat was particularly important in the dry months when wildlife could never range far from the receding waters.Because of their low-fat diet , women typically had late first menstruations and did not begin bearing children until about 18 or 19 years of age.Births were spaced four years apart , due to lack of enough breast milk and requirements of mobility that made feeding and carrying more than one child at a time difficult.In the 1990s , they switched to farming as a result of government-mandated modernization programs as well as the increased risks of a hunting and gathering lifestyle in the face of technological development.Give them a generation or two and then try to take away that new way of life from them and see how they react.Also - they did understand the concept of private property , they just did n't use barter or market economy .
They exchanged gifts.Which is fine for a neolithic way of life where everyone is from the same tribe/family anyway and all that there is to give has been gathered from the Earth.Giving gifts , taking gifts and obligation to reciprocate is fine and dandy until rare things of great value appear .
[ youtube.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>During the war here in Bosnia even without blackouts (as in "turn of that light, the enemy is watching") we often had no more than couple of hours of electricity per day.Me and my sister would often stare for hours at the stars which were the brightest I've ever seen and there was more of them than ever.Cause not only was there no light pollution, but with scarcity of gasoline and any other kind of fuel the air was much cleaner.Still, as soon as the power would come on I'd sit at my C64 to make up the lost time.As for the San...I am guessing that you have never actually spent more than couple of days away from the civilized world and its benefits - ranging from polio shots and penicillin to running water and safety of concrete.Giving idyllic connotations to a neolithic life has often been a favorite pastime of people who have never actually had to grow, gather and hunt their own food or never had a chance to outlive 10 or so of their siblings by the time they are 14.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmen [wikipedia.org] Early spring was the hardest season - a hot dry period following the cool, dry winter.Villages were concentrated around the waterholes, most plants were dead or dormant, and supplies of autumn nuts were exhausted.Meat was particularly important in the dry months when wildlife could never range far from the receding waters.Because of their low-fat diet, women typically had late first menstruations and did not begin bearing children until about 18 or 19 years of age.Births were spaced four years apart, due to lack of enough breast milk and requirements of mobility that made feeding and carrying more than one child at a time difficult.In the 1990s, they switched to farming as a result of government-mandated modernization programs as well as the increased risks of a hunting and gathering lifestyle in the face of technological development.Give them a generation or two and then try to take away that new way of life from them and see how they react.Also - they did understand the concept of private property, they just didn't use barter or market economy.
They exchanged gifts.Which is fine for a neolithic way of life where everyone is from the same tribe/family anyway and all that there is to give has been gathered from the Earth.Giving gifts, taking gifts and obligation to reciprocate is fine and dandy until rare things of great value appear.
[youtube.com]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267389</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267035</id>
	<title>at last!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244567460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>at last! Britain is no longer in europe!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>at last !
Britain is no longer in europe !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>at last!
Britain is no longer in europe!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267671</id>
	<title>Re:Quit calling it "light pollution"</title>
	<author>Kentari</author>
	<datestamp>1244569680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am from Belgium and we have no place left that's truly dark. Nothing. It is pollution and it's being called pollution for good reasons. Your reasoning could be used for all sorts of pollution. That brown sky, that thick thing you think is air, well, that's the price of civilization. Mind, please, don't smoke near that river, it might catch fire, but, yeah, that's the price of civilization. Don't you just love my new mobile phone that was produced by this fine civilization.</p><p>1. There are <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light\_pollution#Effects\_on\_human\_health\_and\_psychology" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">Health effects</a> [wikipedia.org] </p><p>2. There are sometimes disastrous effects on the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light\_pollution#Disruption\_of\_ecosystems" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">ecosystem</a> [wikipedia.org] </p><p>3. The fact that something as natural as darkness is completely disappearing should ring a bell that it is indeed pollution. I don't have to drive 20 minutes to reach "clean" water, "clean" air, but I have to drive 1000 km (or swim) to reach "clean" skies.</p><p>4. It is a waste of energy.</p><p>It hurts to hear this coming from a fellow amateur astronomer. I accept the need to illuminate roads and to some extent private property. But it is done horribly wrong in 99\% of the cases. Why does the lightning that illuminates the road in front of my house also need to illuminate the inside of my bedroom which is 20ft up and behind the pole? Why does that bill board have to be illuminated all night long? Why do the fancy stores not shut their lights after closing time, just like we are supposed to do at our jobs, you know, for environmental reasons?</p><p>Even with proper installed lightning it won't be completely dark in our cities and maybe the Milky Way won't be visible either until you reach the suburbs. But both the environment, our health, our electricity bill and the night sky will profit from it. And maybe I don't have to drive 1000km to reach some pristine skies like I have to do now (French Provence).</p><p>Regards</p><p>PS. there are dark skies closer than the French Provence to Belgium, but well, the Provence got better weather, wine, food,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and if you plan to go observing for a week those are added bonuses. The nearest dark sites are probably 400-500km from here. Too far for one night...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am from Belgium and we have no place left that 's truly dark .
Nothing. It is pollution and it 's being called pollution for good reasons .
Your reasoning could be used for all sorts of pollution .
That brown sky , that thick thing you think is air , well , that 's the price of civilization .
Mind , please , do n't smoke near that river , it might catch fire , but , yeah , that 's the price of civilization .
Do n't you just love my new mobile phone that was produced by this fine civilization.1 .
There are Health effects [ wikipedia.org ] 2 .
There are sometimes disastrous effects on the ecosystem [ wikipedia.org ] 3 .
The fact that something as natural as darkness is completely disappearing should ring a bell that it is indeed pollution .
I do n't have to drive 20 minutes to reach " clean " water , " clean " air , but I have to drive 1000 km ( or swim ) to reach " clean " skies.4 .
It is a waste of energy.It hurts to hear this coming from a fellow amateur astronomer .
I accept the need to illuminate roads and to some extent private property .
But it is done horribly wrong in 99 \ % of the cases .
Why does the lightning that illuminates the road in front of my house also need to illuminate the inside of my bedroom which is 20ft up and behind the pole ?
Why does that bill board have to be illuminated all night long ?
Why do the fancy stores not shut their lights after closing time , just like we are supposed to do at our jobs , you know , for environmental reasons ? Even with proper installed lightning it wo n't be completely dark in our cities and maybe the Milky Way wo n't be visible either until you reach the suburbs .
But both the environment , our health , our electricity bill and the night sky will profit from it .
And maybe I do n't have to drive 1000km to reach some pristine skies like I have to do now ( French Provence ) .RegardsPS .
there are dark skies closer than the French Provence to Belgium , but well , the Provence got better weather , wine , food , ... and if you plan to go observing for a week those are added bonuses .
The nearest dark sites are probably 400-500km from here .
Too far for one night.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am from Belgium and we have no place left that's truly dark.
Nothing. It is pollution and it's being called pollution for good reasons.
Your reasoning could be used for all sorts of pollution.
That brown sky, that thick thing you think is air, well, that's the price of civilization.
Mind, please, don't smoke near that river, it might catch fire, but, yeah, that's the price of civilization.
Don't you just love my new mobile phone that was produced by this fine civilization.1.
There are Health effects [wikipedia.org] 2.
There are sometimes disastrous effects on the ecosystem [wikipedia.org] 3.
The fact that something as natural as darkness is completely disappearing should ring a bell that it is indeed pollution.
I don't have to drive 20 minutes to reach "clean" water, "clean" air, but I have to drive 1000 km (or swim) to reach "clean" skies.4.
It is a waste of energy.It hurts to hear this coming from a fellow amateur astronomer.
I accept the need to illuminate roads and to some extent private property.
But it is done horribly wrong in 99\% of the cases.
Why does the lightning that illuminates the road in front of my house also need to illuminate the inside of my bedroom which is 20ft up and behind the pole?
Why does that bill board have to be illuminated all night long?
Why do the fancy stores not shut their lights after closing time, just like we are supposed to do at our jobs, you know, for environmental reasons?Even with proper installed lightning it won't be completely dark in our cities and maybe the Milky Way won't be visible either until you reach the suburbs.
But both the environment, our health, our electricity bill and the night sky will profit from it.
And maybe I don't have to drive 1000km to reach some pristine skies like I have to do now (French Provence).RegardsPS.
there are dark skies closer than the French Provence to Belgium, but well, the Provence got better weather, wine, food, ... and if you plan to go observing for a week those are added bonuses.
The nearest dark sites are probably 400-500km from here.
Too far for one night...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267099</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268853</id>
	<title>Re:I can see about 20</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244574120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Check out what people can do with 20-30 stars and a DSLR...http://www.flickr.com/photos/koloski/sets/72157618920485319/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Check out what people can do with 20-30 stars and a DSLR...http : //www.flickr.com/photos/koloski/sets/72157618920485319/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Check out what people can do with 20-30 stars and a DSLR...http://www.flickr.com/photos/koloski/sets/72157618920485319/</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266557</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268167</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244571720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I take issue with a number of things here...</p><p>A) Is this 1/5th immobile?</p></div><p>Actually they're just blind.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I take issue with a number of things here...A ) Is this 1/5th immobile ? Actually they 're just blind .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I take issue with a number of things here...A) Is this 1/5th immobile?Actually they're just blind.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267319</id>
	<title>Re:You don't even know you're missing it.</title>
	<author>paleo2002</author>
	<datestamp>1244568300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>My family has lived in northern NJ for most of my life.  My dad went out to visit friends in Arizona a few weeks back and he returned home gushing over the natural beauty.  When he started talking about all the stars at night, I asked him if he noticed the white cloudy streaks across the sky.  When I told him what those were he was astounded.  Its the first time I ever saw someone literally star-struck.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My family has lived in northern NJ for most of my life .
My dad went out to visit friends in Arizona a few weeks back and he returned home gushing over the natural beauty .
When he started talking about all the stars at night , I asked him if he noticed the white cloudy streaks across the sky .
When I told him what those were he was astounded .
Its the first time I ever saw someone literally star-struck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My family has lived in northern NJ for most of my life.
My dad went out to visit friends in Arizona a few weeks back and he returned home gushing over the natural beauty.
When he started talking about all the stars at night, I asked him if he noticed the white cloudy streaks across the sky.
When I told him what those were he was astounded.
Its the first time I ever saw someone literally star-struck.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266497</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267729</id>
	<title>Edison</title>
	<author>Is0m0rph</author>
	<datestamp>1244569920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I blame Edison that darkness fighting bastard!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I blame Edison that darkness fighting bastard !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I blame Edison that darkness fighting bastard!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267873</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Chris Burke</author>
	<datestamp>1244570640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>but I've always assumed that the same could be gained by finding some road-side location out in 'the sticks'.</i></p><p>I can drive about 30 miles out of my city and get a pretty clear view of the sky.  Enough to see the Milky Way and, well, thousands and thousands of stars.  Enough to be pretty impressive when you're used to living in a city, and to do some decent amateur astronomy.  For a truly dark view of the sky with an order of magnitude more visible starts, you <i>really</i> need to head out to the sticks.  Like outside some quiet mountain town hundreds of miles from any major city.</p><p>Not something your average person will do <i>just</i> to see the sky.</p><p><i>When is light 'pollution', and are we okay with (what I assume is) a situational definition of that word?</i></p><p>Light is "pollution" when it is shone up into the sky, where it bounces off the atmosphere and back down to you, doing next to nothing to actually illuminate your surroundings but preventing you from being able to see the night-time scenery.</p><p>It's useless and wasteful.  We'd save energy by managing our light pollution by actually directing our light at what it is we are trying to illuminate, and get a more beautiful sky to boot.</p><p>What exactly isn't to like about this?</p><p><i>The rest is technology at work, for better or worse.</i></p><p>And this is "or worse".  While in terms of 'natural heritage', this is the "for better" part.</p><p>I mean you might as well equate forests and trees with our primitive cave-dwelling lives when asking why anyone would try to preserve such things with greenbelts and parks.  Because they're <i>beautiful</i>, and our modern life does not and should not have to cost us the ability to see them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>but I 've always assumed that the same could be gained by finding some road-side location out in 'the sticks'.I can drive about 30 miles out of my city and get a pretty clear view of the sky .
Enough to see the Milky Way and , well , thousands and thousands of stars .
Enough to be pretty impressive when you 're used to living in a city , and to do some decent amateur astronomy .
For a truly dark view of the sky with an order of magnitude more visible starts , you really need to head out to the sticks .
Like outside some quiet mountain town hundreds of miles from any major city.Not something your average person will do just to see the sky.When is light 'pollution ' , and are we okay with ( what I assume is ) a situational definition of that word ? Light is " pollution " when it is shone up into the sky , where it bounces off the atmosphere and back down to you , doing next to nothing to actually illuminate your surroundings but preventing you from being able to see the night-time scenery.It 's useless and wasteful .
We 'd save energy by managing our light pollution by actually directing our light at what it is we are trying to illuminate , and get a more beautiful sky to boot.What exactly is n't to like about this ? The rest is technology at work , for better or worse.And this is " or worse " .
While in terms of 'natural heritage ' , this is the " for better " part.I mean you might as well equate forests and trees with our primitive cave-dwelling lives when asking why anyone would try to preserve such things with greenbelts and parks .
Because they 're beautiful , and our modern life does not and should not have to cost us the ability to see them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>but I've always assumed that the same could be gained by finding some road-side location out in 'the sticks'.I can drive about 30 miles out of my city and get a pretty clear view of the sky.
Enough to see the Milky Way and, well, thousands and thousands of stars.
Enough to be pretty impressive when you're used to living in a city, and to do some decent amateur astronomy.
For a truly dark view of the sky with an order of magnitude more visible starts, you really need to head out to the sticks.
Like outside some quiet mountain town hundreds of miles from any major city.Not something your average person will do just to see the sky.When is light 'pollution', and are we okay with (what I assume is) a situational definition of that word?Light is "pollution" when it is shone up into the sky, where it bounces off the atmosphere and back down to you, doing next to nothing to actually illuminate your surroundings but preventing you from being able to see the night-time scenery.It's useless and wasteful.
We'd save energy by managing our light pollution by actually directing our light at what it is we are trying to illuminate, and get a more beautiful sky to boot.What exactly isn't to like about this?The rest is technology at work, for better or worse.And this is "or worse".
While in terms of 'natural heritage', this is the "for better" part.I mean you might as well equate forests and trees with our primitive cave-dwelling lives when asking why anyone would try to preserve such things with greenbelts and parks.
Because they're beautiful, and our modern life does not and should not have to cost us the ability to see them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267121</id>
	<title>Saw it for the first time a few years ago.</title>
	<author>SteveHeadroom</author>
	<datestamp>1244567700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm 31. I grew up in the suburbs and moved to the city after college. I'm used to seeing a few random stars scattered in the empty sky and that's all I ever thought of the night sky as. I think I had only ever seen one or two shooting stars. Finally in 2003 I went on a vacation to Las Vegas and also spent two days at the Grand Canyon. WOW! There was almost no light around the hotel I stayed at near the Canyon and I could see the sky packed full of stars and quite a few shooting stars. It was really incredible. It's sad that so many of us have missed out on this for much of our lives. Most people have no idea what they're missing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm 31 .
I grew up in the suburbs and moved to the city after college .
I 'm used to seeing a few random stars scattered in the empty sky and that 's all I ever thought of the night sky as .
I think I had only ever seen one or two shooting stars .
Finally in 2003 I went on a vacation to Las Vegas and also spent two days at the Grand Canyon .
WOW ! There was almost no light around the hotel I stayed at near the Canyon and I could see the sky packed full of stars and quite a few shooting stars .
It was really incredible .
It 's sad that so many of us have missed out on this for much of our lives .
Most people have no idea what they 're missing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm 31.
I grew up in the suburbs and moved to the city after college.
I'm used to seeing a few random stars scattered in the empty sky and that's all I ever thought of the night sky as.
I think I had only ever seen one or two shooting stars.
Finally in 2003 I went on a vacation to Las Vegas and also spent two days at the Grand Canyon.
WOW! There was almost no light around the hotel I stayed at near the Canyon and I could see the sky packed full of stars and quite a few shooting stars.
It was really incredible.
It's sad that so many of us have missed out on this for much of our lives.
Most people have no idea what they're missing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267813</id>
	<title>Example of fixable</title>
	<author>spectrokid</author>
	<datestamp>1244570340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>The cycle path behind my house is illuminated with low-hanging LED lights.  Sensors at every crossing switch off the lights on those parts of the path which is not in use.  There are tests and ratings available to judge how much light specific models of lamp posts send upwards.  Write to your city official!!!</htmltext>
<tokenext>The cycle path behind my house is illuminated with low-hanging LED lights .
Sensors at every crossing switch off the lights on those parts of the path which is not in use .
There are tests and ratings available to judge how much light specific models of lamp posts send upwards .
Write to your city official ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The cycle path behind my house is illuminated with low-hanging LED lights.
Sensors at every crossing switch off the lights on those parts of the path which is not in use.
There are tests and ratings available to judge how much light specific models of lamp posts send upwards.
Write to your city official!!
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266729</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267897</id>
	<title>Milky Way from the Sargasso Sea</title>
	<author>dlmarti</author>
	<datestamp>1244570760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I will never forget the first time I saw the Milky Way, on a cloudless, moonless night from the Sargasso Sea.  The view was indescribable.  Try to imagine a band of clouds illuminated by a electroluminescent light source, but not where the clouds are in our atmosphere, but as a back drop to the stars above.  Its humbling.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I will never forget the first time I saw the Milky Way , on a cloudless , moonless night from the Sargasso Sea .
The view was indescribable .
Try to imagine a band of clouds illuminated by a electroluminescent light source , but not where the clouds are in our atmosphere , but as a back drop to the stars above .
Its humbling .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I will never forget the first time I saw the Milky Way, on a cloudless, moonless night from the Sargasso Sea.
The view was indescribable.
Try to imagine a band of clouds illuminated by a electroluminescent light source, but not where the clouds are in our atmosphere, but as a back drop to the stars above.
Its humbling.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267159</id>
	<title>Re:Aaah... the lucky, lucky, people...</title>
	<author>Afforess</author>
	<datestamp>1244567820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I guess there are advantages to living in the poorest state in the US, Michigan. I can see all the stars at night, but I know from experience that it doesn't take much light pollution to obfuscate them. One car, or one streetlight and over 75\% of them vanish, at least till your eyes readjust.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess there are advantages to living in the poorest state in the US , Michigan .
I can see all the stars at night , but I know from experience that it does n't take much light pollution to obfuscate them .
One car , or one streetlight and over 75 \ % of them vanish , at least till your eyes readjust .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess there are advantages to living in the poorest state in the US, Michigan.
I can see all the stars at night, but I know from experience that it doesn't take much light pollution to obfuscate them.
One car, or one streetlight and over 75\% of them vanish, at least till your eyes readjust.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266651</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28272415</id>
	<title>The words "Milky Way" are losing their meaning</title>
	<author>MojoSF</author>
	<datestamp>1244546220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>People born in cities these days don't realize that the Milky Way is something real that they can see with their own eyes. The words "Milky Way" themselves are losing their meaning. For a lot of people, the words "Milky Way" just mean something vaguely spacey.</p><p>When faced with the Milky Way for the first time from a dark location, they'll easily think "oh there's a line of clouds moving in." In the city, the clouds glow. From a truly dark location, the only way you can tell there are clouds is by the big patch of dark where there should be stars.</p><p>And likewise, many people will never have the experience of having their vision fully dark adapted. It's amazing how milky gray the sky looks when you actually are dark adapted.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People born in cities these days do n't realize that the Milky Way is something real that they can see with their own eyes .
The words " Milky Way " themselves are losing their meaning .
For a lot of people , the words " Milky Way " just mean something vaguely spacey.When faced with the Milky Way for the first time from a dark location , they 'll easily think " oh there 's a line of clouds moving in .
" In the city , the clouds glow .
From a truly dark location , the only way you can tell there are clouds is by the big patch of dark where there should be stars.And likewise , many people will never have the experience of having their vision fully dark adapted .
It 's amazing how milky gray the sky looks when you actually are dark adapted .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People born in cities these days don't realize that the Milky Way is something real that they can see with their own eyes.
The words "Milky Way" themselves are losing their meaning.
For a lot of people, the words "Milky Way" just mean something vaguely spacey.When faced with the Milky Way for the first time from a dark location, they'll easily think "oh there's a line of clouds moving in.
" In the city, the clouds glow.
From a truly dark location, the only way you can tell there are clouds is by the big patch of dark where there should be stars.And likewise, many people will never have the experience of having their vision fully dark adapted.
It's amazing how milky gray the sky looks when you actually are dark adapted.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270229</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>electroniceric</author>
	<datestamp>1244579220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The point you are missing is that generally when someone is "light polluting" it is for a reason.</p>  </div><p>That's a lot of faith that things are thought through with perfect foresight.  I've been thinking about how baked-in light pollution is to American infrastructure, and I've come to think it's a pretty good example of how hard sustainable infrastructure really is.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Sure, it diminishes the view, but it is probably doing something else useful like lighting a room or a path.</p></div><p>So why exactly do we illuminate things at night?  As far as I can tell it's primarily on safety grounds.  That seems pretty reasonable and a good trade, right?  A little extra light and voile a dark dangerous place becomes a safe lit one.</p><p>A couple crashes on a treacherous stretch of in relatively short succession, and the public demands that something be done about the dangerous road.  The road authorities respond by altering the alignment and illuminating that stretch plus some before and after for good measure.  Then light comes to be considered essential for safety on roads carrying a certain volume of traffic and becomes a requirement for receiving federal highway funding.  This is, not entirely coincidentally, good business for both highway contractors (a strong lobby, both locally and nationally) and local electrical utility (another strong lobby locally and nationally).  The question that's hard to answer is exactly how safer is the road?  If traffic volume increases and there are the same number or more accidents, does that mean the lighting didn't work?  But it doesn't really mean it did work, either.  Try an exercise of adding up the <a href="http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2004/MarinaAvetisyan.shtml" title="hypertextbook.com">wattage of street lamps</a> [hypertextbook.com] as you drive along a highway from one city to another.  Now think about all those watts being used to pump out light when there are no cars there at all, or very few.</p><p>

You can repeat the exercise for people lighting their porches, then yards and driveways to secure their houses against intruders.  Sure, pitch dark places have lots of dangers, and illumination does lower some dangers, but you can't eliminate the danger simply by simply illuminating more and more.  Lots of crime happens during broad daylight.  Clearly simple fear of the dark drives the impulse to illuminate everything, much like fear of flying drives insane and useless airport security, even though your likelihood of dying in a car crash is orders of magnitude greater than that of dying on a plane.</p><p>

Finding a balance for these things requires pretty careful thought about when something actually works, and when it doesn't.  In the case of infrastructure like lighting, where you have vested interests and an emotional overlay, and where public perception is that things should just work, that's very hard to do.  But making our use of technology sustainable is going to require that we go back, try to dig out the real problem from the cruft and figure out when we can make things better by using less.  It can be done, but I sure don't see a lot of signs that it's going to be easy.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The point you are missing is that generally when someone is " light polluting " it is for a reason .
That 's a lot of faith that things are thought through with perfect foresight .
I 've been thinking about how baked-in light pollution is to American infrastructure , and I 've come to think it 's a pretty good example of how hard sustainable infrastructure really is.Sure , it diminishes the view , but it is probably doing something else useful like lighting a room or a path.So why exactly do we illuminate things at night ?
As far as I can tell it 's primarily on safety grounds .
That seems pretty reasonable and a good trade , right ?
A little extra light and voile a dark dangerous place becomes a safe lit one.A couple crashes on a treacherous stretch of in relatively short succession , and the public demands that something be done about the dangerous road .
The road authorities respond by altering the alignment and illuminating that stretch plus some before and after for good measure .
Then light comes to be considered essential for safety on roads carrying a certain volume of traffic and becomes a requirement for receiving federal highway funding .
This is , not entirely coincidentally , good business for both highway contractors ( a strong lobby , both locally and nationally ) and local electrical utility ( another strong lobby locally and nationally ) .
The question that 's hard to answer is exactly how safer is the road ?
If traffic volume increases and there are the same number or more accidents , does that mean the lighting did n't work ?
But it does n't really mean it did work , either .
Try an exercise of adding up the wattage of street lamps [ hypertextbook.com ] as you drive along a highway from one city to another .
Now think about all those watts being used to pump out light when there are no cars there at all , or very few .
You can repeat the exercise for people lighting their porches , then yards and driveways to secure their houses against intruders .
Sure , pitch dark places have lots of dangers , and illumination does lower some dangers , but you ca n't eliminate the danger simply by simply illuminating more and more .
Lots of crime happens during broad daylight .
Clearly simple fear of the dark drives the impulse to illuminate everything , much like fear of flying drives insane and useless airport security , even though your likelihood of dying in a car crash is orders of magnitude greater than that of dying on a plane .
Finding a balance for these things requires pretty careful thought about when something actually works , and when it does n't .
In the case of infrastructure like lighting , where you have vested interests and an emotional overlay , and where public perception is that things should just work , that 's very hard to do .
But making our use of technology sustainable is going to require that we go back , try to dig out the real problem from the cruft and figure out when we can make things better by using less .
It can be done , but I sure do n't see a lot of signs that it 's going to be easy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The point you are missing is that generally when someone is "light polluting" it is for a reason.
That's a lot of faith that things are thought through with perfect foresight.
I've been thinking about how baked-in light pollution is to American infrastructure, and I've come to think it's a pretty good example of how hard sustainable infrastructure really is.Sure, it diminishes the view, but it is probably doing something else useful like lighting a room or a path.So why exactly do we illuminate things at night?
As far as I can tell it's primarily on safety grounds.
That seems pretty reasonable and a good trade, right?
A little extra light and voile a dark dangerous place becomes a safe lit one.A couple crashes on a treacherous stretch of in relatively short succession, and the public demands that something be done about the dangerous road.
The road authorities respond by altering the alignment and illuminating that stretch plus some before and after for good measure.
Then light comes to be considered essential for safety on roads carrying a certain volume of traffic and becomes a requirement for receiving federal highway funding.
This is, not entirely coincidentally, good business for both highway contractors (a strong lobby, both locally and nationally) and local electrical utility (another strong lobby locally and nationally).
The question that's hard to answer is exactly how safer is the road?
If traffic volume increases and there are the same number or more accidents, does that mean the lighting didn't work?
But it doesn't really mean it did work, either.
Try an exercise of adding up the wattage of street lamps [hypertextbook.com] as you drive along a highway from one city to another.
Now think about all those watts being used to pump out light when there are no cars there at all, or very few.
You can repeat the exercise for people lighting their porches, then yards and driveways to secure their houses against intruders.
Sure, pitch dark places have lots of dangers, and illumination does lower some dangers, but you can't eliminate the danger simply by simply illuminating more and more.
Lots of crime happens during broad daylight.
Clearly simple fear of the dark drives the impulse to illuminate everything, much like fear of flying drives insane and useless airport security, even though your likelihood of dying in a car crash is orders of magnitude greater than that of dying on a plane.
Finding a balance for these things requires pretty careful thought about when something actually works, and when it doesn't.
In the case of infrastructure like lighting, where you have vested interests and an emotional overlay, and where public perception is that things should just work, that's very hard to do.
But making our use of technology sustainable is going to require that we go back, try to dig out the real problem from the cruft and figure out when we can make things better by using less.
It can be done, but I sure don't see a lot of signs that it's going to be easy.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268291</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267441</id>
	<title>Re:Light pollution is fixable</title>
	<author>digitac</author>
	<datestamp>1244568840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And what happens to that carefully focused light when it hits the white concrete sidewalk and other reflective things?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And what happens to that carefully focused light when it hits the white concrete sidewalk and other reflective things ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And what happens to that carefully focused light when it hits the white concrete sidewalk and other reflective things?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266729</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269105</id>
	<title>More than 1/5th</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244575140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've never seen the arc of the Milky Way. Not even way out in the boonies of central Ontario. Saw<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/lots/ of stars, and used to spend pleasant summer evenings even in suburbia watching satellites pass through the stars, but never seen the arc. I've only seen the arc represented in pictures and illustrations.</p><p>Apparently I don't have "night vision". This is very slight; I tend to turn on house lights a little before other people do. I can drive at night, point out all the regular constellations etc, but I've never seen the 'arc'. There's going to be a fairly hefty chunk of the population who are not considered vision impaired in any other way, who also cannot see the arc.</p><p>And yes, I'm envious. Must be fantastic.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've never seen the arc of the Milky Way .
Not even way out in the boonies of central Ontario .
Saw /lots/ of stars , and used to spend pleasant summer evenings even in suburbia watching satellites pass through the stars , but never seen the arc .
I 've only seen the arc represented in pictures and illustrations.Apparently I do n't have " night vision " .
This is very slight ; I tend to turn on house lights a little before other people do .
I can drive at night , point out all the regular constellations etc , but I 've never seen the 'arc' .
There 's going to be a fairly hefty chunk of the population who are not considered vision impaired in any other way , who also can not see the arc.And yes , I 'm envious .
Must be fantastic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've never seen the arc of the Milky Way.
Not even way out in the boonies of central Ontario.
Saw /lots/ of stars, and used to spend pleasant summer evenings even in suburbia watching satellites pass through the stars, but never seen the arc.
I've only seen the arc represented in pictures and illustrations.Apparently I don't have "night vision".
This is very slight; I tend to turn on house lights a little before other people do.
I can drive at night, point out all the regular constellations etc, but I've never seen the 'arc'.
There's going to be a fairly hefty chunk of the population who are not considered vision impaired in any other way, who also cannot see the arc.And yes, I'm envious.
Must be fantastic.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267399</id>
	<title>It's not just about the lights</title>
	<author>actionbastard</author>
	<datestamp>1244568600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Pollution in general turns the atmosphere into a hazy soup that scatters, reflects, and blocks the light of the stars. The lights in our urban and suburban night-time environments only make that haze visible because of the light reflected from it, making it harder to see dim objects in the sky. There is a scale to measure the 'darkness' of a viewing location, called the <a href="http://www.skyandtelescope.com/resources/darksky/3304011.html" title="skyandtelescope.com">'Bortle Dark-Sky Scale'</a> [skyandtelescope.com], which allows you to evaluate the 'darkness' your viewing location. Using this scale, the night-time sky in Galileo's time would achieve a ranking of '1', the darkest sky possible. If that were the case, it would have been possible to read a book or a newspaper with ease by the light of the full Moon.<br>
The <a href="http://www.lightpollution.it/worldatlas/pages/fig1.htm" title="lightpollution.it">'World Atlas of the Artificial Night Sky Brightness'</a> [lightpollution.it] has some nice pix of worldwide light pollution.<br>
An article in <a href="http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/08/20/070820fa\_fact\_owen?currentPage=all" title="newyorker.com">'The New Yorker' magazine from August, 2007,</a> [newyorker.com] discusses light pollution and John Bortle.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Pollution in general turns the atmosphere into a hazy soup that scatters , reflects , and blocks the light of the stars .
The lights in our urban and suburban night-time environments only make that haze visible because of the light reflected from it , making it harder to see dim objects in the sky .
There is a scale to measure the 'darkness ' of a viewing location , called the 'Bortle Dark-Sky Scale ' [ skyandtelescope.com ] , which allows you to evaluate the 'darkness ' your viewing location .
Using this scale , the night-time sky in Galileo 's time would achieve a ranking of '1 ' , the darkest sky possible .
If that were the case , it would have been possible to read a book or a newspaper with ease by the light of the full Moon .
The 'World Atlas of the Artificial Night Sky Brightness ' [ lightpollution.it ] has some nice pix of worldwide light pollution .
An article in 'The New Yorker ' magazine from August , 2007 , [ newyorker.com ] discusses light pollution and John Bortle .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pollution in general turns the atmosphere into a hazy soup that scatters, reflects, and blocks the light of the stars.
The lights in our urban and suburban night-time environments only make that haze visible because of the light reflected from it, making it harder to see dim objects in the sky.
There is a scale to measure the 'darkness' of a viewing location, called the 'Bortle Dark-Sky Scale' [skyandtelescope.com], which allows you to evaluate the 'darkness' your viewing location.
Using this scale, the night-time sky in Galileo's time would achieve a ranking of '1', the darkest sky possible.
If that were the case, it would have been possible to read a book or a newspaper with ease by the light of the full Moon.
The 'World Atlas of the Artificial Night Sky Brightness' [lightpollution.it] has some nice pix of worldwide light pollution.
An article in 'The New Yorker' magazine from August, 2007, [newyorker.com] discusses light pollution and John Bortle.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268987</id>
	<title>Re:Uggg</title>
	<author>ddraculdiablo</author>
	<datestamp>1244574660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>We do have people working on some of the problems that you mentioned. But tell me how is science going to stop gangs? Yes we have important issuse to worry about but this is also an important issue in its own right. What this hints at is a need for humans to find a balance with nature. I personally found it very soothing to go outside away from the hustle and bustle of everyday life and just stare up at the stars and be with my own thoughts. You cant do that in most of the cities in america.</htmltext>
<tokenext>We do have people working on some of the problems that you mentioned .
But tell me how is science going to stop gangs ?
Yes we have important issuse to worry about but this is also an important issue in its own right .
What this hints at is a need for humans to find a balance with nature .
I personally found it very soothing to go outside away from the hustle and bustle of everyday life and just stare up at the stars and be with my own thoughts .
You cant do that in most of the cities in america .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We do have people working on some of the problems that you mentioned.
But tell me how is science going to stop gangs?
Yes we have important issuse to worry about but this is also an important issue in its own right.
What this hints at is a need for humans to find a balance with nature.
I personally found it very soothing to go outside away from the hustle and bustle of everyday life and just stare up at the stars and be with my own thoughts.
You cant do that in most of the cities in america.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267851</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268575</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>A Pancake</author>
	<datestamp>1244573220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A. I live in a city of 750,000 - Just to give you an idea of scope, the glow of the city is very prominent when outside the city. In fact, from a couple of vantage points at least about 50 KM away you can still make out the lit towers in the city center.</p><p>B. When is a plant a weed? When you don't want it where it is. Light pollution is light which is not serving a purpose. That city glow I mention above is not doing anything to benefit anyone, it's light going up into space where it really can't help.</p><p>Light pollution is also wasteful from a financial standpoint. Full cut off lighting directs the majority of light from the lighting element to the desired location meaning you can use lower wattage bulbs, or fewer bulbs, to achieve the same level of ground lighting. In addition full cut off lighting reduces road glare which increases driver safety in night driving.</p><p>The International Dark Sky Association has some good resources on the subject. Based on the source you may want to keep a grain of salt handy, but I don't see much bias in their statements. <a href="http://www.darksky.org/" title="darksky.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.darksky.org/</a> [darksky.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A. I live in a city of 750,000 - Just to give you an idea of scope , the glow of the city is very prominent when outside the city .
In fact , from a couple of vantage points at least about 50 KM away you can still make out the lit towers in the city center.B .
When is a plant a weed ?
When you do n't want it where it is .
Light pollution is light which is not serving a purpose .
That city glow I mention above is not doing anything to benefit anyone , it 's light going up into space where it really ca n't help.Light pollution is also wasteful from a financial standpoint .
Full cut off lighting directs the majority of light from the lighting element to the desired location meaning you can use lower wattage bulbs , or fewer bulbs , to achieve the same level of ground lighting .
In addition full cut off lighting reduces road glare which increases driver safety in night driving.The International Dark Sky Association has some good resources on the subject .
Based on the source you may want to keep a grain of salt handy , but I do n't see much bias in their statements .
http : //www.darksky.org/ [ darksky.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A. I live in a city of 750,000 - Just to give you an idea of scope, the glow of the city is very prominent when outside the city.
In fact, from a couple of vantage points at least about 50 KM away you can still make out the lit towers in the city center.B.
When is a plant a weed?
When you don't want it where it is.
Light pollution is light which is not serving a purpose.
That city glow I mention above is not doing anything to benefit anyone, it's light going up into space where it really can't help.Light pollution is also wasteful from a financial standpoint.
Full cut off lighting directs the majority of light from the lighting element to the desired location meaning you can use lower wattage bulbs, or fewer bulbs, to achieve the same level of ground lighting.
In addition full cut off lighting reduces road glare which increases driver safety in night driving.The International Dark Sky Association has some good resources on the subject.
Based on the source you may want to keep a grain of salt handy, but I don't see much bias in their statements.
http://www.darksky.org/ [darksky.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267735</id>
	<title>Doesn't include Blind people</title>
	<author>JamJam</author>
	<datestamp>1244569980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>While not a large number,
<a href="http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs282/en/index.html" title="who.int" rel="nofollow"> WHO</a> [who.int]
estimates that 314 million people are blind or visually impaired.  So add that number to those who wouldn't be able to see the Milky Way.</htmltext>
<tokenext>While not a large number , WHO [ who.int ] estimates that 314 million people are blind or visually impaired .
So add that number to those who would n't be able to see the Milky Way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While not a large number,
 WHO [who.int]
estimates that 314 million people are blind or visually impaired.
So add that number to those who wouldn't be able to see the Milky Way.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269081</id>
	<title>what milky way?</title>
	<author>amoeba1911</author>
	<datestamp>1244575080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Now that they built a giant Lexus dealer with stadium lighting I can't even see the moon anymore.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Now that they built a giant Lexus dealer with stadium lighting I ca n't even see the moon anymore .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now that they built a giant Lexus dealer with stadium lighting I can't even see the moon anymore.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266709</id>
	<title>Re:Aren't we in the milkyway?</title>
	<author>Itninja</author>
	<datestamp>1244566440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes we are. But on a dark night you can look up and see a faint band of stellar bodies in the sky. You are looking into the core of the spiral galaxy we call the Milky Way. On a <i>really</i> dark night you can even see the peanuts and caramel.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes we are .
But on a dark night you can look up and see a faint band of stellar bodies in the sky .
You are looking into the core of the spiral galaxy we call the Milky Way .
On a really dark night you can even see the peanuts and caramel .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes we are.
But on a dark night you can look up and see a faint band of stellar bodies in the sky.
You are looking into the core of the spiral galaxy we call the Milky Way.
On a really dark night you can even see the peanuts and caramel.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266483</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28274549</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244562540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You *do* know that's not the whole earth, right?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... just checking.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You * do * know that 's not the whole earth , right ?
... just checking .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You *do* know that's not the whole earth, right?
... just checking.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267431</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270641</id>
	<title>Re:This is sad</title>
	<author>prockcore</author>
	<datestamp>1244580840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I don't really know how it can be solved</p></div></blockquote><p>I live in Tucson.  We solved it by a combination of strict lighting laws and lack of funds.  There are absolutely no street lamps in my neighborhood, and I can see the Milky Way from my backyard.</p><p><a href="http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tucson/Currents/Content?oid=oid\%3A68227" title="tucsonweekly.com">http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tucson/Currents/Content?oid=oid\%3A68227</a> [tucsonweekly.com]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't really know how it can be solvedI live in Tucson .
We solved it by a combination of strict lighting laws and lack of funds .
There are absolutely no street lamps in my neighborhood , and I can see the Milky Way from my backyard.http : //www.tucsonweekly.com/tucson/Currents/Content ? oid = oid \ % 3A68227 [ tucsonweekly.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't really know how it can be solvedI live in Tucson.
We solved it by a combination of strict lighting laws and lack of funds.
There are absolutely no street lamps in my neighborhood, and I can see the Milky Way from my backyard.http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tucson/Currents/Content?oid=oid\%3A68227 [tucsonweekly.com]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266777</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267509</id>
	<title>Re:Aren't we in the milkyway?</title>
	<author>CubicleView</author>
	<datestamp>1244569080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Back home I can see this no problem, along with the occasional satellite whizzing past. I don't tend to stand around the city at night staring upwards but I'm quite sure I wouldn't see much for very long if I did.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Back home I can see this no problem , along with the occasional satellite whizzing past .
I do n't tend to stand around the city at night staring upwards but I 'm quite sure I would n't see much for very long if I did .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back home I can see this no problem, along with the occasional satellite whizzing past.
I don't tend to stand around the city at night staring upwards but I'm quite sure I wouldn't see much for very long if I did.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266703</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268929</id>
	<title>Old News, but Interesting</title>
	<author>Thumper\_SVX</author>
	<datestamp>1244574420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously, to me this is sort of old news. Let me tell you a story;</p><p>When I was young, I grew up in a small town about 50 miles from London in the UK. We rarely left the area because we really couldn't travel much. When I was in a little older, we lived in Belfast, Northern Ireland... and finally when I was 18 I lived in London for a few years. This is significant because the first time I truly traveled outside of major metropolitan areas in my life, I was 21 and I went to Oklahoma. I was staying with friends in Chickasha, OK... and one night, I think it was my fourth night in the area we drove out to <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&amp;source=s\_q&amp;hl=en&amp;geocode=&amp;q=lake&amp;sll=34.968072,-98.072076&amp;sspn=0.010216,0.017445&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;split=1&amp;t=h&amp;radius=0.49&amp;rq=1&amp;ll=34.967245,-98.068771&amp;spn=0.020433,0.03489&amp;z=15" title="google.com">Lake Louis Burtschi</a> [google.com], as poor college students do when they can't afford to go out and do stuff. Anyway, I recall distinctly stepping out of the car and literally had my breath taken away. My friends said I stood dead still for almost a minute, and I remember the feeling of vertigo, the feeling of depth as I stared into that starry night sky, the Milky Way clear above my head as I had seen it in books.</p><p>All my life, I had grown up seeing these pictures in books of mountains with the Milky Way shown clearly there... and all my life I had believed truly that those pictures were in some way faked to make a dramatic point. Sure, I had vaguely seen the "fuzz" of the glow of the galaxy across the sky on the clearest nights I can remember in Belfast, but never in my life before had I seen anything like it. I had never even suspected that I was able to see the sky that clearly from any vantage point on Earth except perhaps the tops of the tallest mountains... even then I doubted it looked like that. I just had no idea until I saw it first hand.</p><p>That night I stood there for the better part of 5 or 6 hours, taking in the majesty of a night sky I had never suspected I would ever see in my life, thinking that the only place I could see that would be out the window of a space shuttle (something I knew I would never do).</p><p>I'm 36 now, but that night is still vivid in my memory. It's still incredible, and still so unbelievable to me that I had the chance to see that. I have been back there since, and though it's not as clear now as it was 15 years ago, it's still an awe-inspiring sight for someone like me who has lived most of my life in suburbs. Today I live in St. Louis... we're lucky to see Betelgeuse most nights because of the light pollution of our metropolis. I know I can drive a few hours out of town and get a better view, but Missouri is too humid for a view like I got in Oklahoma.</p><p>I know how the younger people feel today... and they really don't know what they're missing. It's a sad state of affairs, and yes... one that can be rectified by getting away from the large cities if possible. But remember my example; I didn't even consider that getting away from the cities would afford me that much better a view... because I had never seen it and never encountered it. Cities are so densely packed in Britain that you'd be really hard-pressed to find a single location where you're far enough from light pollution to see that clearly. Sure, maybe the highlands of Scotland... but having been up in the highlands a few times I can say that you'd be damned lucky to get a night that wasn't overcast in most of those mountains.</p><p>I'm somewhat reminded of the people of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krikkit#Krikkit" title="wikipedia.org">Krikkit</a> [wikipedia.org] in Life, The Universe and Everything: They lived their entire lives surrounded by a dust cloud that obscured the night sky to the extent that it never even occurred to them that there was anything beyond that dust cloud... or even that there was a sky, as such. I think in some ways I felt when I saw the Milky Way clearly for the first time that I had spent my entire life obscured from the real night sky and as such had never even considered it's existence in the way I have since.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously , to me this is sort of old news .
Let me tell you a story ; When I was young , I grew up in a small town about 50 miles from London in the UK .
We rarely left the area because we really could n't travel much .
When I was in a little older , we lived in Belfast , Northern Ireland... and finally when I was 18 I lived in London for a few years .
This is significant because the first time I truly traveled outside of major metropolitan areas in my life , I was 21 and I went to Oklahoma .
I was staying with friends in Chickasha , OK... and one night , I think it was my fourth night in the area we drove out to Lake Louis Burtschi [ google.com ] , as poor college students do when they ca n't afford to go out and do stuff .
Anyway , I recall distinctly stepping out of the car and literally had my breath taken away .
My friends said I stood dead still for almost a minute , and I remember the feeling of vertigo , the feeling of depth as I stared into that starry night sky , the Milky Way clear above my head as I had seen it in books.All my life , I had grown up seeing these pictures in books of mountains with the Milky Way shown clearly there... and all my life I had believed truly that those pictures were in some way faked to make a dramatic point .
Sure , I had vaguely seen the " fuzz " of the glow of the galaxy across the sky on the clearest nights I can remember in Belfast , but never in my life before had I seen anything like it .
I had never even suspected that I was able to see the sky that clearly from any vantage point on Earth except perhaps the tops of the tallest mountains... even then I doubted it looked like that .
I just had no idea until I saw it first hand.That night I stood there for the better part of 5 or 6 hours , taking in the majesty of a night sky I had never suspected I would ever see in my life , thinking that the only place I could see that would be out the window of a space shuttle ( something I knew I would never do ) .I 'm 36 now , but that night is still vivid in my memory .
It 's still incredible , and still so unbelievable to me that I had the chance to see that .
I have been back there since , and though it 's not as clear now as it was 15 years ago , it 's still an awe-inspiring sight for someone like me who has lived most of my life in suburbs .
Today I live in St. Louis... we 're lucky to see Betelgeuse most nights because of the light pollution of our metropolis .
I know I can drive a few hours out of town and get a better view , but Missouri is too humid for a view like I got in Oklahoma.I know how the younger people feel today... and they really do n't know what they 're missing .
It 's a sad state of affairs , and yes... one that can be rectified by getting away from the large cities if possible .
But remember my example ; I did n't even consider that getting away from the cities would afford me that much better a view... because I had never seen it and never encountered it .
Cities are so densely packed in Britain that you 'd be really hard-pressed to find a single location where you 're far enough from light pollution to see that clearly .
Sure , maybe the highlands of Scotland... but having been up in the highlands a few times I can say that you 'd be damned lucky to get a night that was n't overcast in most of those mountains.I 'm somewhat reminded of the people of Krikkit [ wikipedia.org ] in Life , The Universe and Everything : They lived their entire lives surrounded by a dust cloud that obscured the night sky to the extent that it never even occurred to them that there was anything beyond that dust cloud... or even that there was a sky , as such .
I think in some ways I felt when I saw the Milky Way clearly for the first time that I had spent my entire life obscured from the real night sky and as such had never even considered it 's existence in the way I have since .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously, to me this is sort of old news.
Let me tell you a story;When I was young, I grew up in a small town about 50 miles from London in the UK.
We rarely left the area because we really couldn't travel much.
When I was in a little older, we lived in Belfast, Northern Ireland... and finally when I was 18 I lived in London for a few years.
This is significant because the first time I truly traveled outside of major metropolitan areas in my life, I was 21 and I went to Oklahoma.
I was staying with friends in Chickasha, OK... and one night, I think it was my fourth night in the area we drove out to Lake Louis Burtschi [google.com], as poor college students do when they can't afford to go out and do stuff.
Anyway, I recall distinctly stepping out of the car and literally had my breath taken away.
My friends said I stood dead still for almost a minute, and I remember the feeling of vertigo, the feeling of depth as I stared into that starry night sky, the Milky Way clear above my head as I had seen it in books.All my life, I had grown up seeing these pictures in books of mountains with the Milky Way shown clearly there... and all my life I had believed truly that those pictures were in some way faked to make a dramatic point.
Sure, I had vaguely seen the "fuzz" of the glow of the galaxy across the sky on the clearest nights I can remember in Belfast, but never in my life before had I seen anything like it.
I had never even suspected that I was able to see the sky that clearly from any vantage point on Earth except perhaps the tops of the tallest mountains... even then I doubted it looked like that.
I just had no idea until I saw it first hand.That night I stood there for the better part of 5 or 6 hours, taking in the majesty of a night sky I had never suspected I would ever see in my life, thinking that the only place I could see that would be out the window of a space shuttle (something I knew I would never do).I'm 36 now, but that night is still vivid in my memory.
It's still incredible, and still so unbelievable to me that I had the chance to see that.
I have been back there since, and though it's not as clear now as it was 15 years ago, it's still an awe-inspiring sight for someone like me who has lived most of my life in suburbs.
Today I live in St. Louis... we're lucky to see Betelgeuse most nights because of the light pollution of our metropolis.
I know I can drive a few hours out of town and get a better view, but Missouri is too humid for a view like I got in Oklahoma.I know how the younger people feel today... and they really don't know what they're missing.
It's a sad state of affairs, and yes... one that can be rectified by getting away from the large cities if possible.
But remember my example; I didn't even consider that getting away from the cities would afford me that much better a view... because I had never seen it and never encountered it.
Cities are so densely packed in Britain that you'd be really hard-pressed to find a single location where you're far enough from light pollution to see that clearly.
Sure, maybe the highlands of Scotland... but having been up in the highlands a few times I can say that you'd be damned lucky to get a night that wasn't overcast in most of those mountains.I'm somewhat reminded of the people of Krikkit [wikipedia.org] in Life, The Universe and Everything: They lived their entire lives surrounded by a dust cloud that obscured the night sky to the extent that it never even occurred to them that there was anything beyond that dust cloud... or even that there was a sky, as such.
I think in some ways I felt when I saw the Milky Way clearly for the first time that I had spent my entire life obscured from the real night sky and as such had never even considered it's existence in the way I have since.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267007</id>
	<title>buy it</title>
	<author>binaryseraph</author>
	<datestamp>1244567340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well I dont know about you, but just about every liquor store I know sells milky ways... I just dont see what everyone is complaining about.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well I dont know about you , but just about every liquor store I know sells milky ways... I just dont see what everyone is complaining about .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well I dont know about you, but just about every liquor store I know sells milky ways... I just dont see what everyone is complaining about.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268115</id>
	<title>Re:Light pollution is fixable</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244571600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What you're proposing will cost money.  Most people in the heavily light polluted areas - like Brooklyn - don't care.  A dime of tax money spent to let some random elitist schmuck see something that he could easily look up on line is a dime too much for many such people.</p><p>Those who appreciate such views sufficiently to want to see it regularly are in a minority along with those who want to eat kosher or vegetarian.  We can still get what we want, but not at the expense of the majority's convenience or cash.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What you 're proposing will cost money .
Most people in the heavily light polluted areas - like Brooklyn - do n't care .
A dime of tax money spent to let some random elitist schmuck see something that he could easily look up on line is a dime too much for many such people.Those who appreciate such views sufficiently to want to see it regularly are in a minority along with those who want to eat kosher or vegetarian .
We can still get what we want , but not at the expense of the majority 's convenience or cash .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What you're proposing will cost money.
Most people in the heavily light polluted areas - like Brooklyn - don't care.
A dime of tax money spent to let some random elitist schmuck see something that he could easily look up on line is a dime too much for many such people.Those who appreciate such views sufficiently to want to see it regularly are in a minority along with those who want to eat kosher or vegetarian.
We can still get what we want, but not at the expense of the majority's convenience or cash.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266729</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268881</id>
	<title>Another misleading statistic</title>
	<author>jhfry</author>
	<datestamp>1244574300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The statistic should be that 1/5th of the world's population lives in population dense cities that produce too much light pollution to observe the milky way at night.</p><p>MOST places in the US and Europe offer spectacular views of the night sky, including the Milky Way.  Fortunately the population is not very dense except in the big cities.</p><p>When 1/5 of the world has too much light pollution to observe the Milky Way, then I will worry.  1/5 of the worlds population, no big deal.  Hell, I'd guess that most of the other 4/5's of the population wish they had that problem, cause then it might mean that they have the power to run their wells, clean their water, refrigerate their food, compete for the next big call center, and maybe stop burying 1/4, or 1/3, or even 1/2 of their children before they see 18.</p><p>While I agree that it would be nice if we industrialized nations could dim it a little in our big cities so our spoiled kids can see a few stars, I don't consider it a cause for concern.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The statistic should be that 1/5th of the world 's population lives in population dense cities that produce too much light pollution to observe the milky way at night.MOST places in the US and Europe offer spectacular views of the night sky , including the Milky Way .
Fortunately the population is not very dense except in the big cities.When 1/5 of the world has too much light pollution to observe the Milky Way , then I will worry .
1/5 of the worlds population , no big deal .
Hell , I 'd guess that most of the other 4/5 's of the population wish they had that problem , cause then it might mean that they have the power to run their wells , clean their water , refrigerate their food , compete for the next big call center , and maybe stop burying 1/4 , or 1/3 , or even 1/2 of their children before they see 18.While I agree that it would be nice if we industrialized nations could dim it a little in our big cities so our spoiled kids can see a few stars , I do n't consider it a cause for concern .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The statistic should be that 1/5th of the world's population lives in population dense cities that produce too much light pollution to observe the milky way at night.MOST places in the US and Europe offer spectacular views of the night sky, including the Milky Way.
Fortunately the population is not very dense except in the big cities.When 1/5 of the world has too much light pollution to observe the Milky Way, then I will worry.
1/5 of the worlds population, no big deal.
Hell, I'd guess that most of the other 4/5's of the population wish they had that problem, cause then it might mean that they have the power to run their wells, clean their water, refrigerate their food, compete for the next big call center, and maybe stop burying 1/4, or 1/3, or even 1/2 of their children before they see 18.While I agree that it would be nice if we industrialized nations could dim it a little in our big cities so our spoiled kids can see a few stars, I don't consider it a cause for concern.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267845</id>
	<title>And 99.9\% of us can't see the Auroras</title>
	<author>Culture20</author>
	<datestamp>1244570460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>99.999\% can't see the Grand Canyon.<br>
100\% of us can't *smell* the *pretty* *colors*<br>
Yes, pretty==good, and the Milky Way is pretty, but mankind has been fighting darkness at night for millennia.  We finally beat it.  Unless you're going to say that seeing the stars regularly is good for our mental health because it's part of our original environment or lack of stars-sight makes us vulnerable to cancer, I'll take my well-lit night any day.  err, night.  You know what I mean.</htmltext>
<tokenext>99.999 \ % ca n't see the Grand Canyon .
100 \ % of us ca n't * smell * the * pretty * * colors * Yes , pretty = = good , and the Milky Way is pretty , but mankind has been fighting darkness at night for millennia .
We finally beat it .
Unless you 're going to say that seeing the stars regularly is good for our mental health because it 's part of our original environment or lack of stars-sight makes us vulnerable to cancer , I 'll take my well-lit night any day .
err , night .
You know what I mean .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>99.999\% can't see the Grand Canyon.
100\% of us can't *smell* the *pretty* *colors*
Yes, pretty==good, and the Milky Way is pretty, but mankind has been fighting darkness at night for millennia.
We finally beat it.
Unless you're going to say that seeing the stars regularly is good for our mental health because it's part of our original environment or lack of stars-sight makes us vulnerable to cancer, I'll take my well-lit night any day.
err, night.
You know what I mean.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267575</id>
	<title>Re:Aaah... the lucky, lucky, people...</title>
	<author>Hijacked Public</author>
	<datestamp>1244569380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I live about 60 miles from Indianapolis, and subjectively I can see about as many stars here as I have in African towns that have no electricity. I haven't spent a lot of nights in the center of the jungle because I prefer to not be killed.</p><p>Depite being able to stand in my backyard and see an amount of stars that amazes guests I'm surrounded by adequate roads, ready access to health care facilities, and have been formally educated. Indoor plumbing as well. And 4mb wireless internet. So plenty of the comforts of civilization.</p><p>It isn't a requirement that everything civilized must be illuminated all the time. There will always be 24 hour factories and airports and roads that will be, but we light a lot of stupid things as well. A symbol of the housing bust is going to be upward facing exterior lights that allow people to show off their gaudy oversized homes to passersby even at night. At some point Wal-Mart will decide it is too expensive to light their entire lot at 3am when it is only 10\% full.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I live about 60 miles from Indianapolis , and subjectively I can see about as many stars here as I have in African towns that have no electricity .
I have n't spent a lot of nights in the center of the jungle because I prefer to not be killed.Depite being able to stand in my backyard and see an amount of stars that amazes guests I 'm surrounded by adequate roads , ready access to health care facilities , and have been formally educated .
Indoor plumbing as well .
And 4mb wireless internet .
So plenty of the comforts of civilization.It is n't a requirement that everything civilized must be illuminated all the time .
There will always be 24 hour factories and airports and roads that will be , but we light a lot of stupid things as well .
A symbol of the housing bust is going to be upward facing exterior lights that allow people to show off their gaudy oversized homes to passersby even at night .
At some point Wal-Mart will decide it is too expensive to light their entire lot at 3am when it is only 10 \ % full .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live about 60 miles from Indianapolis, and subjectively I can see about as many stars here as I have in African towns that have no electricity.
I haven't spent a lot of nights in the center of the jungle because I prefer to not be killed.Depite being able to stand in my backyard and see an amount of stars that amazes guests I'm surrounded by adequate roads, ready access to health care facilities, and have been formally educated.
Indoor plumbing as well.
And 4mb wireless internet.
So plenty of the comforts of civilization.It isn't a requirement that everything civilized must be illuminated all the time.
There will always be 24 hour factories and airports and roads that will be, but we light a lot of stupid things as well.
A symbol of the housing bust is going to be upward facing exterior lights that allow people to show off their gaudy oversized homes to passersby even at night.
At some point Wal-Mart will decide it is too expensive to light their entire lot at 3am when it is only 10\% full.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266651</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268529</id>
	<title>Perspective</title>
	<author>Doug Neal</author>
	<datestamp>1244573040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For me the best thing about being able to see the Milky Way is the sense of perspective you get from the realisation of what it is you're looking it in relation to where you are. Next time you get to see the Milky Way, think about how the galaxy is in a flat-ish plane, and how you and the band you are seeing are both in the same plane. Once you think about it, you mentally orientate yourself in this plane and it starts to mess with your perception of what's "up" and what's "down". The discrepancy between the local "up and down" that you experience on Earth and the bigger "up and down" you see from the Milky Way puts things into perspective in quite a powerful way, in that you stop seeing the sky as a big mass of stars and start to see how you + the Earth fits in to the bigger picture. Of course this may all be obvious to a lot of people here on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. but it isn't to most non-nerds, so if you're on a camping trip and want to impress your mates (or a girl..), try this, it works great<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For me the best thing about being able to see the Milky Way is the sense of perspective you get from the realisation of what it is you 're looking it in relation to where you are .
Next time you get to see the Milky Way , think about how the galaxy is in a flat-ish plane , and how you and the band you are seeing are both in the same plane .
Once you think about it , you mentally orientate yourself in this plane and it starts to mess with your perception of what 's " up " and what 's " down " .
The discrepancy between the local " up and down " that you experience on Earth and the bigger " up and down " you see from the Milky Way puts things into perspective in quite a powerful way , in that you stop seeing the sky as a big mass of stars and start to see how you + the Earth fits in to the bigger picture .
Of course this may all be obvious to a lot of people here on / .
but it is n't to most non-nerds , so if you 're on a camping trip and want to impress your mates ( or a girl.. ) , try this , it works great ; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For me the best thing about being able to see the Milky Way is the sense of perspective you get from the realisation of what it is you're looking it in relation to where you are.
Next time you get to see the Milky Way, think about how the galaxy is in a flat-ish plane, and how you and the band you are seeing are both in the same plane.
Once you think about it, you mentally orientate yourself in this plane and it starts to mess with your perception of what's "up" and what's "down".
The discrepancy between the local "up and down" that you experience on Earth and the bigger "up and down" you see from the Milky Way puts things into perspective in quite a powerful way, in that you stop seeing the sky as a big mass of stars and start to see how you + the Earth fits in to the bigger picture.
Of course this may all be obvious to a lot of people here on /.
but it isn't to most non-nerds, so if you're on a camping trip and want to impress your mates (or a girl..), try this, it works great ;)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270619</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244580780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are things called headlights. Use them sometime. Sometime they also require a cleaning.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are things called headlights .
Use them sometime .
Sometime they also require a cleaning .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are things called headlights.
Use them sometime.
Sometime they also require a cleaning.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266863</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270333</id>
	<title>Re:Unfortunate consequences of life</title>
	<author>suss</author>
	<datestamp>1244579580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, we need stupid things like beamers, advertisement lights and roads bathed in lights for "security"...</p><p>Oh yeah, and everyone needs a 100 watt bulb at their front door and in the garden, burning all freaking night long.</p><p>Turn off the bloody lights when you don't need them. It's not like the wolves will get you when it's dark.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , we need stupid things like beamers , advertisement lights and roads bathed in lights for " security " ...Oh yeah , and everyone needs a 100 watt bulb at their front door and in the garden , burning all freaking night long.Turn off the bloody lights when you do n't need them .
It 's not like the wolves will get you when it 's dark .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, we need stupid things like beamers, advertisement lights and roads bathed in lights for "security"...Oh yeah, and everyone needs a 100 watt bulb at their front door and in the garden, burning all freaking night long.Turn off the bloody lights when you don't need them.
It's not like the wolves will get you when it's dark.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268017</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270131</id>
	<title>Re:Uggg</title>
	<author>Abcd1234</author>
	<datestamp>1244578920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>In a world of violence, famine, plagues, tryanny, bigotry, hate... I really wish "scientist" could find practical things to bitch about like millions starving, etc. Seriously of all the things to whine about... light pollution.</i></p><p>So, which order do you want to tackle those things in?  Violence first?  How 'bout famine?  Tough choice, I know, but... apparently we can only do one thing at a time, so...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In a world of violence , famine , plagues , tryanny , bigotry , hate... I really wish " scientist " could find practical things to bitch about like millions starving , etc .
Seriously of all the things to whine about... light pollution.So , which order do you want to tackle those things in ?
Violence first ?
How 'bout famine ?
Tough choice , I know , but... apparently we can only do one thing at a time , so.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In a world of violence, famine, plagues, tryanny, bigotry, hate... I really wish "scientist" could find practical things to bitch about like millions starving, etc.
Seriously of all the things to whine about... light pollution.So, which order do you want to tackle those things in?
Violence first?
How 'bout famine?
Tough choice, I know, but... apparently we can only do one thing at a time, so...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267851</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268765</id>
	<title>Re:You don't even know you're missing it.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244573880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'll bet THAT made the rest of your day fairly uncomfortable, both physically and olfactorily.  At least you had nice things to look at, even after that closer star broke the horizon!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll bet THAT made the rest of your day fairly uncomfortable , both physically and olfactorily .
At least you had nice things to look at , even after that closer star broke the horizon !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll bet THAT made the rest of your day fairly uncomfortable, both physically and olfactorily.
At least you had nice things to look at, even after that closer star broke the horizon!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266497</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267561</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244569260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>so slow down</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>so slow down</tokentext>
<sentencetext>so slow down</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266863</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269389</id>
	<title>Re:Light pollution or not...</title>
	<author>Techmeology</author>
	<datestamp>1244575920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No, it's adjacent to Juicey Way.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No , it 's adjacent to Juicey Way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, it's adjacent to Juicey Way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268751</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>BumbaCLot</author>
	<datestamp>1244573820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do you have a bigger source for this? I was wanting to know a good place to take a vacation this summer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do you have a bigger source for this ?
I was wanting to know a good place to take a vacation this summer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do you have a bigger source for this?
I was wanting to know a good place to take a vacation this summer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267431</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267585</id>
	<title>I'm sorry, but I don't miss that at all.</title>
	<author>Qbertino</author>
	<datestamp>1244569380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I live in Los Angeles. One day I went up to Yosemite to hike Half-Dome. It's a long hike, so we started at 3 in the morning. When we broke out of the trees, I looked up and shit my pants.</i></p><p>Sorry, but me missing you shitting your pants is absolutely fine with me. Thanks for the concern though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I live in Los Angeles .
One day I went up to Yosemite to hike Half-Dome .
It 's a long hike , so we started at 3 in the morning .
When we broke out of the trees , I looked up and shit my pants.Sorry , but me missing you shitting your pants is absolutely fine with me .
Thanks for the concern though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live in Los Angeles.
One day I went up to Yosemite to hike Half-Dome.
It's a long hike, so we started at 3 in the morning.
When we broke out of the trees, I looked up and shit my pants.Sorry, but me missing you shitting your pants is absolutely fine with me.
Thanks for the concern though.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266497</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268447</id>
	<title>difficult dilemma</title>
	<author>jafac</author>
	<datestamp>1244572740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have in-laws in suburban Phoenix, and there is an "anti-light pollution" ordinance in effect there.  NO STREETLIGHTS.  It is very eerie and strange, driving around dense suburbs, in near total darkness.  You see the headlights of the other traffic, the endless banality of the lighted signs at strip-malls, but aside from the safety lights in the parking lots, no lights on the street.</p><p>In contrast, I (very fortunately) live in a fairly rural area in California; though we DO have streetlights. And the view of the stars at night is better in Phoenix.  I have to drive about a half hour away from home to get a decent view of the night sky.</p><p>Now: compared to where I grew up - Chicago. . . I remember being disappointed when Haley's Comet came around.  I couldn't even see the damn thing on a clear night. And that was after an hour's drive out into the "country".</p><p>Light pollution ordinances seem to be a very fascistic way to address this; public-safety is really more important than everyone being able to see stars from their backyard.  It's an old notion that is apparently dying for us.  It's sad. But as we (humanity) breed faster than cockroaches, I don't really see much alternative.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have in-laws in suburban Phoenix , and there is an " anti-light pollution " ordinance in effect there .
NO STREETLIGHTS .
It is very eerie and strange , driving around dense suburbs , in near total darkness .
You see the headlights of the other traffic , the endless banality of the lighted signs at strip-malls , but aside from the safety lights in the parking lots , no lights on the street.In contrast , I ( very fortunately ) live in a fairly rural area in California ; though we DO have streetlights .
And the view of the stars at night is better in Phoenix .
I have to drive about a half hour away from home to get a decent view of the night sky.Now : compared to where I grew up - Chicago .
. .
I remember being disappointed when Haley 's Comet came around .
I could n't even see the damn thing on a clear night .
And that was after an hour 's drive out into the " country " .Light pollution ordinances seem to be a very fascistic way to address this ; public-safety is really more important than everyone being able to see stars from their backyard .
It 's an old notion that is apparently dying for us .
It 's sad .
But as we ( humanity ) breed faster than cockroaches , I do n't really see much alternative .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have in-laws in suburban Phoenix, and there is an "anti-light pollution" ordinance in effect there.
NO STREETLIGHTS.
It is very eerie and strange, driving around dense suburbs, in near total darkness.
You see the headlights of the other traffic, the endless banality of the lighted signs at strip-malls, but aside from the safety lights in the parking lots, no lights on the street.In contrast, I (very fortunately) live in a fairly rural area in California; though we DO have streetlights.
And the view of the stars at night is better in Phoenix.
I have to drive about a half hour away from home to get a decent view of the night sky.Now: compared to where I grew up - Chicago.
. .
I remember being disappointed when Haley's Comet came around.
I couldn't even see the damn thing on a clear night.
And that was after an hour's drive out into the "country".Light pollution ordinances seem to be a very fascistic way to address this; public-safety is really more important than everyone being able to see stars from their backyard.
It's an old notion that is apparently dying for us.
It's sad.
But as we (humanity) breed faster than cockroaches, I don't really see much alternative.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270331</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah, but...</title>
	<author>blind biker</author>
	<datestamp>1244579580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Honest curiosity: what is wrong with living in Spokane? I have only once, shortly, been to the American continent...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Honest curiosity : what is wrong with living in Spokane ?
I have only once , shortly , been to the American continent.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Honest curiosity: what is wrong with living in Spokane?
I have only once, shortly, been to the American continent...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267247</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268845</id>
	<title>Re:Uggg</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244574120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>In a world of violence, famine, plagues, tryanny, bigotry, hate... </p></div><p>"Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere."    ~Carl Sagan</p><p>That's why light pollution matters. Few things can stimulate the imagination better than gazing out at the universe.</p><p>Carl C.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In a world of violence , famine , plagues , tryanny , bigotry , hate... " Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were .
But without it we go nowhere .
" ~ Carl SaganThat 's why light pollution matters .
Few things can stimulate the imagination better than gazing out at the universe.Carl C .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In a world of violence, famine, plagues, tryanny, bigotry, hate... "Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were.
But without it we go nowhere.
"    ~Carl SaganThat's why light pollution matters.
Few things can stimulate the imagination better than gazing out at the universe.Carl C.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267851</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267481</id>
	<title>Re:Well... I could.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244569020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>That aside, I don't see how any government can possibly take light pollution seriously. Too much investment to satisfy too small a group - who cares if it's world heritage.</i></p><p>Its actually safer for people walking (no light means there are no shadows a criminal could hide in) and less light means lower energy costs.</p><p>We have a 50MPH highway, 4 lane for some parts, 2 for others, which is about five miles long.  To save money, the city is trying to turn off most of the lights along the route (the whole thing used to be lit).  It hasn't seemed to cause any more problems than there already were, and I imagine it's saving quite a bit of money.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That aside , I do n't see how any government can possibly take light pollution seriously .
Too much investment to satisfy too small a group - who cares if it 's world heritage.Its actually safer for people walking ( no light means there are no shadows a criminal could hide in ) and less light means lower energy costs.We have a 50MPH highway , 4 lane for some parts , 2 for others , which is about five miles long .
To save money , the city is trying to turn off most of the lights along the route ( the whole thing used to be lit ) .
It has n't seemed to cause any more problems than there already were , and I imagine it 's saving quite a bit of money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That aside, I don't see how any government can possibly take light pollution seriously.
Too much investment to satisfy too small a group - who cares if it's world heritage.Its actually safer for people walking (no light means there are no shadows a criminal could hide in) and less light means lower energy costs.We have a 50MPH highway, 4 lane for some parts, 2 for others, which is about five miles long.
To save money, the city is trying to turn off most of the lights along the route (the whole thing used to be lit).
It hasn't seemed to cause any more problems than there already were, and I imagine it's saving quite a bit of money.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267005</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269169</id>
	<title>Re:Aaah... the lucky, lucky, people...</title>
	<author>Minwee</author>
	<datestamp>1244575260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I am certain that they would never trade such freedom and comfort for those ghastly artificially illuminated roads, constant hum of the civilization and such trivialities as proximity to health-care and formal education.</p></div></blockquote><p>How about if you traded your ghastly artificially illuminated roads for roads which are properly illuminated with high efficiency lights which aren't pointed directly into the sky?  You would also sleep a good deal better if you replaced the transformer on your civilization with one which didn't hum so much, and that health care of yours would run a lot smoother if you weren't constantly screwing with your circadian rhythm.
</p><p>Perhaps you should ask the people of Flagstaff, Arizona what it feels like to have completely turned their backs on civilization and moved into caves.  They have been trying to rein in wasteful outdoor lighting since 1958 and have been international recognized for having dark night skies since the turn of the century.
</p><p>And if you honestly believe that a formal education requires that you shine a spotlight up into the sky all night long, then you might want to ask for a refund on yours.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am certain that they would never trade such freedom and comfort for those ghastly artificially illuminated roads , constant hum of the civilization and such trivialities as proximity to health-care and formal education.How about if you traded your ghastly artificially illuminated roads for roads which are properly illuminated with high efficiency lights which are n't pointed directly into the sky ?
You would also sleep a good deal better if you replaced the transformer on your civilization with one which did n't hum so much , and that health care of yours would run a lot smoother if you were n't constantly screwing with your circadian rhythm .
Perhaps you should ask the people of Flagstaff , Arizona what it feels like to have completely turned their backs on civilization and moved into caves .
They have been trying to rein in wasteful outdoor lighting since 1958 and have been international recognized for having dark night skies since the turn of the century .
And if you honestly believe that a formal education requires that you shine a spotlight up into the sky all night long , then you might want to ask for a refund on yours .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am certain that they would never trade such freedom and comfort for those ghastly artificially illuminated roads, constant hum of the civilization and such trivialities as proximity to health-care and formal education.How about if you traded your ghastly artificially illuminated roads for roads which are properly illuminated with high efficiency lights which aren't pointed directly into the sky?
You would also sleep a good deal better if you replaced the transformer on your civilization with one which didn't hum so much, and that health care of yours would run a lot smoother if you weren't constantly screwing with your circadian rhythm.
Perhaps you should ask the people of Flagstaff, Arizona what it feels like to have completely turned their backs on civilization and moved into caves.
They have been trying to rein in wasteful outdoor lighting since 1958 and have been international recognized for having dark night skies since the turn of the century.
And if you honestly believe that a formal education requires that you shine a spotlight up into the sky all night long, then you might want to ask for a refund on yours.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266651</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267251</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244568120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>nope, roadside location out in the sticks won't do it. I live out in the sticks, less than a mile from a major southern university's astro observatory, whose site was carefully chosen for its "dark sky location" in the scrub. sadly, the area was then and still is in a 5-10-20-acre subdivision. it was nice when the whole place was absentee owned (google "florida land scams" to understand), but now that more than half the homesites are occupied, and every damn one of them (except ours, I'm proud to say) has a light-spraying sodium vapor bulb mounted on a 30-foot stalk, it is a hell of a lot less dark out here. my neighbor's light, which, at their back door is more than 200 meters from my back door, throws shadows in my yard from the trees in between. now that's some light.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>nope , roadside location out in the sticks wo n't do it .
I live out in the sticks , less than a mile from a major southern university 's astro observatory , whose site was carefully chosen for its " dark sky location " in the scrub .
sadly , the area was then and still is in a 5-10-20-acre subdivision .
it was nice when the whole place was absentee owned ( google " florida land scams " to understand ) , but now that more than half the homesites are occupied , and every damn one of them ( except ours , I 'm proud to say ) has a light-spraying sodium vapor bulb mounted on a 30-foot stalk , it is a hell of a lot less dark out here .
my neighbor 's light , which , at their back door is more than 200 meters from my back door , throws shadows in my yard from the trees in between .
now that 's some light .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>nope, roadside location out in the sticks won't do it.
I live out in the sticks, less than a mile from a major southern university's astro observatory, whose site was carefully chosen for its "dark sky location" in the scrub.
sadly, the area was then and still is in a 5-10-20-acre subdivision.
it was nice when the whole place was absentee owned (google "florida land scams" to understand), but now that more than half the homesites are occupied, and every damn one of them (except ours, I'm proud to say) has a light-spraying sodium vapor bulb mounted on a 30-foot stalk, it is a hell of a lot less dark out here.
my neighbor's light, which, at their back door is more than 200 meters from my back door, throws shadows in my yard from the trees in between.
now that's some light.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267219</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>MightyYar</author>
	<datestamp>1244568060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>When is light 'pollution'</p></div><p>True. One thing to consider is that it makes the planet look really cool from a plane. So yeah, you lose the stars... which, don't get me wrong is a shame... but I love flying at night just so I can gape out the Window. The flight from Newark to Singapore is really, really cool since you fly over such a wide variety of places.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>When is light 'pollution'True .
One thing to consider is that it makes the planet look really cool from a plane .
So yeah , you lose the stars... which , do n't get me wrong is a shame... but I love flying at night just so I can gape out the Window .
The flight from Newark to Singapore is really , really cool since you fly over such a wide variety of places .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When is light 'pollution'True.
One thing to consider is that it makes the planet look really cool from a plane.
So yeah, you lose the stars... which, don't get me wrong is a shame... but I love flying at night just so I can gape out the Window.
The flight from Newark to Singapore is really, really cool since you fly over such a wide variety of places.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28276757</id>
	<title>Britain is part Europe</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244626980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Light pollution has caused one-fifth of the world's population - mostly in Europe, Britain and the US - to lose their ability to see the Milky Way in the night sky. (from main article)</p></div><p>Britain, whether they like it or not, is considered part of Europe.</p><p>The British (and also the rest of Europe) wish it were different, but these are the facts.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Light pollution has caused one-fifth of the world 's population - mostly in Europe , Britain and the US - to lose their ability to see the Milky Way in the night sky .
( from main article ) Britain , whether they like it or not , is considered part of Europe.The British ( and also the rest of Europe ) wish it were different , but these are the facts .
: D</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Light pollution has caused one-fifth of the world's population - mostly in Europe, Britain and the US - to lose their ability to see the Milky Way in the night sky.
(from main article)Britain, whether they like it or not, is considered part of Europe.The British (and also the rest of Europe) wish it were different, but these are the facts.
:D
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267525</id>
	<title>Make do!</title>
	<author>goettel</author>
	<datestamp>1244569140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Picked up a hobby I quit about 25 years ago Yes, old.

Gots me a sweet, sweet 8" Newton on an Ikea-like cheap Dobson mount. Optics are first class though, as is the small collection of eyepieces I've collected over the last year, including a wide FOV beauty: the William Optics 40 mm UWAN.

Right outside my house, overlooking The Hague, Holland, it's absolutely terrible, light polution wise. Still: planets (Saturn, beautiful), the moon (always beautiful at less than full moon), sunspots (the handful we get treated to at the moment, with the sun activity at a record low). Checked out comet Lulin a couple months back, and even though the light polution limited that to the main coma, it was breathtaking. Orion Nebula: dramaticaly better than I expected. Some other nebulas, while just 'browsing' with the UWAN, a bottle of Havana Club and that curious green tobacco the man sold me instead of the advertised "coffee".

My point? It's terrible having to deal with the light polution, but even under the baddest of circumstances, it's possible to have breathtaking view on the universe outside Earth. If you have the least interest in that, get yourself a nice 'scope and show your kids and neighbours that there's actually stars out there.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Picked up a hobby I quit about 25 years ago Yes , old .
Gots me a sweet , sweet 8 " Newton on an Ikea-like cheap Dobson mount .
Optics are first class though , as is the small collection of eyepieces I 've collected over the last year , including a wide FOV beauty : the William Optics 40 mm UWAN .
Right outside my house , overlooking The Hague , Holland , it 's absolutely terrible , light polution wise .
Still : planets ( Saturn , beautiful ) , the moon ( always beautiful at less than full moon ) , sunspots ( the handful we get treated to at the moment , with the sun activity at a record low ) .
Checked out comet Lulin a couple months back , and even though the light polution limited that to the main coma , it was breathtaking .
Orion Nebula : dramaticaly better than I expected .
Some other nebulas , while just 'browsing ' with the UWAN , a bottle of Havana Club and that curious green tobacco the man sold me instead of the advertised " coffee " .
My point ?
It 's terrible having to deal with the light polution , but even under the baddest of circumstances , it 's possible to have breathtaking view on the universe outside Earth .
If you have the least interest in that , get yourself a nice 'scope and show your kids and neighbours that there 's actually stars out there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Picked up a hobby I quit about 25 years ago Yes, old.
Gots me a sweet, sweet 8" Newton on an Ikea-like cheap Dobson mount.
Optics are first class though, as is the small collection of eyepieces I've collected over the last year, including a wide FOV beauty: the William Optics 40 mm UWAN.
Right outside my house, overlooking The Hague, Holland, it's absolutely terrible, light polution wise.
Still: planets (Saturn, beautiful), the moon (always beautiful at less than full moon), sunspots (the handful we get treated to at the moment, with the sun activity at a record low).
Checked out comet Lulin a couple months back, and even though the light polution limited that to the main coma, it was breathtaking.
Orion Nebula: dramaticaly better than I expected.
Some other nebulas, while just 'browsing' with the UWAN, a bottle of Havana Club and that curious green tobacco the man sold me instead of the advertised "coffee".
My point?
It's terrible having to deal with the light polution, but even under the baddest of circumstances, it's possible to have breathtaking view on the universe outside Earth.
If you have the least interest in that, get yourself a nice 'scope and show your kids and neighbours that there's actually stars out there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270105</id>
	<title>Re:Light pollution is fixable</title>
	<author>tirerim</author>
	<datestamp>1244578800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It bounces off them, just like the other lights do.  There isn't any more light hitting the ground, just less going into the sky.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It bounces off them , just like the other lights do .
There is n't any more light hitting the ground , just less going into the sky .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It bounces off them, just like the other lights do.
There isn't any more light hitting the ground, just less going into the sky.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267441</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28272251</id>
	<title>Re:And 99.9\% of us can't see the Auroras</title>
	<author>prockcore</author>
	<datestamp>1244545020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Unless you're going to say that seeing the stars regularly is good for our mental health because it's part of our original environment or lack of stars-sight makes us vulnerable to cancer,</p></div></blockquote><p>That's exactly what they're saying.</p><p><a href="http://www.rd.com/living-healthy/artificial-light-a-hidden-cancer-risk/article128447.html" title="rd.com">http://www.rd.com/living-healthy/artificial-light-a-hidden-cancer-risk/article128447.html</a> [rd.com]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless you 're going to say that seeing the stars regularly is good for our mental health because it 's part of our original environment or lack of stars-sight makes us vulnerable to cancer,That 's exactly what they 're saying.http : //www.rd.com/living-healthy/artificial-light-a-hidden-cancer-risk/article128447.html [ rd.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless you're going to say that seeing the stars regularly is good for our mental health because it's part of our original environment or lack of stars-sight makes us vulnerable to cancer,That's exactly what they're saying.http://www.rd.com/living-healthy/artificial-light-a-hidden-cancer-risk/article128447.html [rd.com]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267845</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267967</id>
	<title>G2 with Google SkyMap</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244571000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most amazing use of a phone yet</p><p>well, maybe...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most amazing use of a phone yetwell , maybe.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most amazing use of a phone yetwell, maybe...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267367</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244568480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Light is pollution when it is cast towards places where it was not meant to be cast, in this case towards the sky.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Light is pollution when it is cast towards places where it was not meant to be cast , in this case towards the sky .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Light is pollution when it is cast towards places where it was not meant to be cast, in this case towards the sky.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266745</id>
	<title>21 when first seen</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244566560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I did not see the Milky Way until I was in my early twenties. I was on a camping trip and looked up at the night sky and commented how many stars you could see except for that one cloud in the way, and someone explained it wasn't a cloud. I was seeing the Milky Way for the first time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I did not see the Milky Way until I was in my early twenties .
I was on a camping trip and looked up at the night sky and commented how many stars you could see except for that one cloud in the way , and someone explained it was n't a cloud .
I was seeing the Milky Way for the first time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I did not see the Milky Way until I was in my early twenties.
I was on a camping trip and looked up at the night sky and commented how many stars you could see except for that one cloud in the way, and someone explained it wasn't a cloud.
I was seeing the Milky Way for the first time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267705</id>
	<title>Re:Aaah... the lucky, lucky, people...</title>
	<author>Lumpy</author>
	<datestamp>1244569860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They will gladly give up the eaten by bugs all night long and have to fight daily to survive lifestyle.</p><p>Dude,  It's not all romance and care free life when living as the natives do.  It's a tough as hell life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They will gladly give up the eaten by bugs all night long and have to fight daily to survive lifestyle.Dude , It 's not all romance and care free life when living as the natives do .
It 's a tough as hell life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They will gladly give up the eaten by bugs all night long and have to fight daily to survive lifestyle.Dude,  It's not all romance and care free life when living as the natives do.
It's a tough as hell life.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266651</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268637</id>
	<title>Blackout of 2003</title>
	<author>Naito</author>
	<datestamp>1244573460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Was the most absolutely beautiful night in my life, until the moon came up anyway.  I can't number how many friends looked up at the sky for the first time and realized the beauty that was always hidden away.<br><br>Really rather wish they didn't fix it so damn fast.  Should make these blackouts a yearly thing, Earth hour is nothing in comparison.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Was the most absolutely beautiful night in my life , until the moon came up anyway .
I ca n't number how many friends looked up at the sky for the first time and realized the beauty that was always hidden away.Really rather wish they did n't fix it so damn fast .
Should make these blackouts a yearly thing , Earth hour is nothing in comparison .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Was the most absolutely beautiful night in my life, until the moon came up anyway.
I can't number how many friends looked up at the sky for the first time and realized the beauty that was always hidden away.Really rather wish they didn't fix it so damn fast.
Should make these blackouts a yearly thing, Earth hour is nothing in comparison.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267217</id>
	<title>Re:Aaah... the lucky, lucky, people...</title>
	<author>pluther</author>
	<datestamp>1244568060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>...proximity to health-care...</i></p><p>I'm an American, you insensitive clod!<br>(We don't get health care over here.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...proximity to health-care...I 'm an American , you insensitive clod !
( We do n't get health care over here .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...proximity to health-care...I'm an American, you insensitive clod!
(We don't get health care over here.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266651</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267433</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>demonbug</author>
	<datestamp>1244568840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Light pollution is generally considered the unnecessary lighting of the night sky. Wile some complain about things like unnecessary street lights, the main thrust (for most people) is working on shrouding area lights so they only light what is needed. For example, if you ever look at the lights at a stadium (where they are really only meant to be lighting the field), a huge amount of light is directed upwards, basically as leakage. Not only does this brighten the whole sky, it is a waste of a significant amount of energy - there really isn't a reason to light up the sky. In this case, light pollution could be significantly reduced by simply shrouding the tops of the lights (hell, use a mirrored surface to shroud them, and you increase the effective light output at the target for the same cost in energy).</p><p>For the most part, the anti-light pollution movement isn't about removing lights completely, it is about thinking through the orientation, placement, and design of lights to reduce needless leakage into the night sky. It is pollution when the light serves no useful purpose, or there is excessive leakage into non-target areas because of poor planning and/or design.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Light pollution is generally considered the unnecessary lighting of the night sky .
Wile some complain about things like unnecessary street lights , the main thrust ( for most people ) is working on shrouding area lights so they only light what is needed .
For example , if you ever look at the lights at a stadium ( where they are really only meant to be lighting the field ) , a huge amount of light is directed upwards , basically as leakage .
Not only does this brighten the whole sky , it is a waste of a significant amount of energy - there really is n't a reason to light up the sky .
In this case , light pollution could be significantly reduced by simply shrouding the tops of the lights ( hell , use a mirrored surface to shroud them , and you increase the effective light output at the target for the same cost in energy ) .For the most part , the anti-light pollution movement is n't about removing lights completely , it is about thinking through the orientation , placement , and design of lights to reduce needless leakage into the night sky .
It is pollution when the light serves no useful purpose , or there is excessive leakage into non-target areas because of poor planning and/or design .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Light pollution is generally considered the unnecessary lighting of the night sky.
Wile some complain about things like unnecessary street lights, the main thrust (for most people) is working on shrouding area lights so they only light what is needed.
For example, if you ever look at the lights at a stadium (where they are really only meant to be lighting the field), a huge amount of light is directed upwards, basically as leakage.
Not only does this brighten the whole sky, it is a waste of a significant amount of energy - there really isn't a reason to light up the sky.
In this case, light pollution could be significantly reduced by simply shrouding the tops of the lights (hell, use a mirrored surface to shroud them, and you increase the effective light output at the target for the same cost in energy).For the most part, the anti-light pollution movement isn't about removing lights completely, it is about thinking through the orientation, placement, and design of lights to reduce needless leakage into the night sky.
It is pollution when the light serves no useful purpose, or there is excessive leakage into non-target areas because of poor planning and/or design.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267299</id>
	<title>I've never seen it in 40+ years</title>
	<author>fprintf</author>
	<datestamp>1244568240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have never seen the milky way, and until reading about dark skies didn't even realize it was possible to see the Milky Way from Earth. I always saw the pictures of a galaxy, with an arrow saying "Earth is here" as just an artists rendering of what we think it might look like.</p><p>The thing is, I don't live in a city. I just live in a suburb of a small city on the East coast of the United States where there is a ton of light pollution. I would think it safe to say there are many people like myself who have never seen it, and quite frankly don't know what they are missing. I am only interested because I am technically curious, unlike most people who probably don't care.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have never seen the milky way , and until reading about dark skies did n't even realize it was possible to see the Milky Way from Earth .
I always saw the pictures of a galaxy , with an arrow saying " Earth is here " as just an artists rendering of what we think it might look like.The thing is , I do n't live in a city .
I just live in a suburb of a small city on the East coast of the United States where there is a ton of light pollution .
I would think it safe to say there are many people like myself who have never seen it , and quite frankly do n't know what they are missing .
I am only interested because I am technically curious , unlike most people who probably do n't care .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have never seen the milky way, and until reading about dark skies didn't even realize it was possible to see the Milky Way from Earth.
I always saw the pictures of a galaxy, with an arrow saying "Earth is here" as just an artists rendering of what we think it might look like.The thing is, I don't live in a city.
I just live in a suburb of a small city on the East coast of the United States where there is a ton of light pollution.
I would think it safe to say there are many people like myself who have never seen it, and quite frankly don't know what they are missing.
I am only interested because I am technically curious, unlike most people who probably don't care.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266815</id>
	<title>Re:You don't even know you're missing it.</title>
	<author>oldspewey</author>
	<datestamp>1244566800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I looked up and shit my pants.</p></div><p>So you managed to spot Laxitiva Major? I have some great practical joke stories about that star.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I looked up and shit my pants.So you managed to spot Laxitiva Major ?
I have some great practical joke stories about that star .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I looked up and shit my pants.So you managed to spot Laxitiva Major?
I have some great practical joke stories about that star.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266497</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266563</id>
	<title>You have to get away ...</title>
	<author>i\_want\_you\_to\_throw\_</author>
	<datestamp>1244566020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>from the light pollution to really realize what you're missing. The two times I have been been in awe of the night sky were, <br>
1. In the middle of the Atlantic on a boat<br>
2. In the desert in Mauritania<br> <br>
Also on your astronomical to do list, head to the southern hemisphere. There's a whole different set of stars there. (Besides Nicole Kidman)</htmltext>
<tokenext>from the light pollution to really realize what you 're missing .
The two times I have been been in awe of the night sky were , 1 .
In the middle of the Atlantic on a boat 2 .
In the desert in Mauritania Also on your astronomical to do list , head to the southern hemisphere .
There 's a whole different set of stars there .
( Besides Nicole Kidman )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>from the light pollution to really realize what you're missing.
The two times I have been been in awe of the night sky were, 
1.
In the middle of the Atlantic on a boat
2.
In the desert in Mauritania 
Also on your astronomical to do list, head to the southern hemisphere.
There's a whole different set of stars there.
(Besides Nicole Kidman)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28271763</id>
	<title>Street lights are okay</title>
	<author>gringofrijolero</author>
	<datestamp>1244542800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But why do they have to shine them up into the sky? Didn't they used to have hoods on them a long time ago?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But why do they have to shine them up into the sky ?
Did n't they used to have hoods on them a long time ago ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But why do they have to shine them up into the sky?
Didn't they used to have hoods on them a long time ago?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269393</id>
	<title>I can't see it either</title>
	<author>MrP-</author>
	<datestamp>1244575920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's so sad. There was an awesome pic from Death Valley taken at night that was recently posted to Digg.</p><p>I commented that I remember as a child laying in the grass looking up at the sky and seeing the milky way and tons of stars.<br>If you were in an area where you couldn't see anything in your periphery it felt like you were in space.</p><p>Now at most I can see the Moon and Jupiter and maybe a couple stars and everything else is a dull black.</p><p>I had forgotten the way it used to be until I saw photos like the one on Digg which brought back memories.</p><p>I showed the pictures to my brother who is 21 and he thought it was a Photoshop because he never got a chance to see anything like that.</p><p>Damn light pollution!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's so sad .
There was an awesome pic from Death Valley taken at night that was recently posted to Digg.I commented that I remember as a child laying in the grass looking up at the sky and seeing the milky way and tons of stars.If you were in an area where you could n't see anything in your periphery it felt like you were in space.Now at most I can see the Moon and Jupiter and maybe a couple stars and everything else is a dull black.I had forgotten the way it used to be until I saw photos like the one on Digg which brought back memories.I showed the pictures to my brother who is 21 and he thought it was a Photoshop because he never got a chance to see anything like that.Damn light pollution !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's so sad.
There was an awesome pic from Death Valley taken at night that was recently posted to Digg.I commented that I remember as a child laying in the grass looking up at the sky and seeing the milky way and tons of stars.If you were in an area where you couldn't see anything in your periphery it felt like you were in space.Now at most I can see the Moon and Jupiter and maybe a couple stars and everything else is a dull black.I had forgotten the way it used to be until I saw photos like the one on Digg which brought back memories.I showed the pictures to my brother who is 21 and he thought it was a Photoshop because he never got a chance to see anything like that.Damn light pollution!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267317</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Mr\_Nitro</author>
	<datestamp>1244568300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>lighting up your favorite monument at night is just a waste... ok it makes for nice tourists pics... but thats about it. At most we could setup couple of nights per months when to keep lights on, for touristic reasons. for the rest... it's pretty useless. Seeing the milky way, and not only that , is something that could inspire us, remind us that there's not only this polluted world we're killing, and that we should preserve all this as long as possible for others to see...maybe the next step in civilization is when one manages to sustain its own env. or not.... maybe it's what makes warp drive space colonization vs religious nut oil megacorp driving all in the abyss.</htmltext>
<tokenext>lighting up your favorite monument at night is just a waste... ok it makes for nice tourists pics... but thats about it .
At most we could setup couple of nights per months when to keep lights on , for touristic reasons .
for the rest... it 's pretty useless .
Seeing the milky way , and not only that , is something that could inspire us , remind us that there 's not only this polluted world we 're killing , and that we should preserve all this as long as possible for others to see...maybe the next step in civilization is when one manages to sustain its own env .
or not.... maybe it 's what makes warp drive space colonization vs religious nut oil megacorp driving all in the abyss .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>lighting up your favorite monument at night is just a waste... ok it makes for nice tourists pics... but thats about it.
At most we could setup couple of nights per months when to keep lights on, for touristic reasons.
for the rest... it's pretty useless.
Seeing the milky way, and not only that , is something that could inspire us, remind us that there's not only this polluted world we're killing, and that we should preserve all this as long as possible for others to see...maybe the next step in civilization is when one manages to sustain its own env.
or not.... maybe it's what makes warp drive space colonization vs religious nut oil megacorp driving all in the abyss.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269761</id>
	<title>Re:Quit calling it "light pollution"</title>
	<author>Just Some Guy</author>
	<datestamp>1244577420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That's one of the silliest terms I've ever heard. Comparing light at night to smog or dirty water is disingenuous. There are no health hazards to nighttime light.</p></div><p>I love well-lit civilization as much as the next young Libertarian, but loss of the night sky is a damn shame.  If you've never stared into the cosmos and wondered, then your life is incomplete.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's one of the silliest terms I 've ever heard .
Comparing light at night to smog or dirty water is disingenuous .
There are no health hazards to nighttime light.I love well-lit civilization as much as the next young Libertarian , but loss of the night sky is a damn shame .
If you 've never stared into the cosmos and wondered , then your life is incomplete .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's one of the silliest terms I've ever heard.
Comparing light at night to smog or dirty water is disingenuous.
There are no health hazards to nighttime light.I love well-lit civilization as much as the next young Libertarian, but loss of the night sky is a damn shame.
If you've never stared into the cosmos and wondered, then your life is incomplete.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267099</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266755</id>
	<title>Sad...</title>
	<author>Zantac69</author>
	<datestamp>1244566620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Just last week, I explained to my wife that the "funny looking star area" that they see in Titanic when they are taking the ice bath really was the Milky Way galaxy...and that it really did look like that when you get in some real "country dark" - something she has not ever seen...and something that I have not seen in years.  City life is good...but we miss out on some of the most beautiful things out there!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just last week , I explained to my wife that the " funny looking star area " that they see in Titanic when they are taking the ice bath really was the Milky Way galaxy...and that it really did look like that when you get in some real " country dark " - something she has not ever seen...and something that I have not seen in years .
City life is good...but we miss out on some of the most beautiful things out there !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just last week, I explained to my wife that the "funny looking star area" that they see in Titanic when they are taking the ice bath really was the Milky Way galaxy...and that it really did look like that when you get in some real "country dark" - something she has not ever seen...and something that I have not seen in years.
City life is good...but we miss out on some of the most beautiful things out there!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28271597</id>
	<title>I live on a mountain in New Zealand.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244541900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not a high mountain, by world-standards - only 2,000 metres - but it's an isolated mountain, well away from any sources of light pollution. Yes, the nearest real medical facility is more than three hours away by road, and the nearest university is almost four hours away, but my telescopes and I have one of the darkest skies on the planet, and there are helicopters based nearby should any emergency arise which justifies a mercy dash anywhere.</p><p>If pubbing and clubbing means a lot to you, and being able to go out to restaurants and the movies whenever you feel like it is a priority, then yeah, this is not the ideal place to be for you, no doubt about it. But my family and I wouldn't live anywhere else, so I guess we all have to accept that different people value different things, and make different lifestyle choices.</p><p>Oh, and don't forget that just because you lived in a city to attend university it doesn't mean you have to <em>stay</em> in a city once you you graduate...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not a high mountain , by world-standards - only 2,000 metres - but it 's an isolated mountain , well away from any sources of light pollution .
Yes , the nearest real medical facility is more than three hours away by road , and the nearest university is almost four hours away , but my telescopes and I have one of the darkest skies on the planet , and there are helicopters based nearby should any emergency arise which justifies a mercy dash anywhere.If pubbing and clubbing means a lot to you , and being able to go out to restaurants and the movies whenever you feel like it is a priority , then yeah , this is not the ideal place to be for you , no doubt about it .
But my family and I would n't live anywhere else , so I guess we all have to accept that different people value different things , and make different lifestyle choices.Oh , and do n't forget that just because you lived in a city to attend university it does n't mean you have to stay in a city once you you graduate.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not a high mountain, by world-standards - only 2,000 metres - but it's an isolated mountain, well away from any sources of light pollution.
Yes, the nearest real medical facility is more than three hours away by road, and the nearest university is almost four hours away, but my telescopes and I have one of the darkest skies on the planet, and there are helicopters based nearby should any emergency arise which justifies a mercy dash anywhere.If pubbing and clubbing means a lot to you, and being able to go out to restaurants and the movies whenever you feel like it is a priority, then yeah, this is not the ideal place to be for you, no doubt about it.
But my family and I wouldn't live anywhere else, so I guess we all have to accept that different people value different things, and make different lifestyle choices.Oh, and don't forget that just because you lived in a city to attend university it doesn't mean you have to stay in a city once you you graduate...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266651</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267783</id>
	<title>Huh?</title>
	<author>jambox</author>
	<datestamp>1244570220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The Milky-what-now?</htmltext>
<tokenext>The Milky-what-now ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Milky-what-now?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268327</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>daVinci1980</author>
	<datestamp>1244572260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I go to Lake City, Colorado every other summer or so. It's in rural SW Colorado, fulltime population ~200. The town is one of a very few in Hinsdale County,  which has the lowest population density of any county in the lower 48 states. Lake City sits in a mountain valley about 4 miles long by 1.5 miles wide, at an elevation of 8600 ft. Once you're on the highway, two or three mountain bends out you're sitting at about 10,000 feet with virtually no light pollution.</p><p>I say all of this to help you understand that when you find somewhere that's truly dark--and with significantly less atmosphere in the way--the milky way ceases to be a haze of stars, and starts to be millions of points of light. It's the most breathtaking sight I think I've taken in so far in my 30 years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I go to Lake City , Colorado every other summer or so .
It 's in rural SW Colorado , fulltime population ~ 200 .
The town is one of a very few in Hinsdale County , which has the lowest population density of any county in the lower 48 states .
Lake City sits in a mountain valley about 4 miles long by 1.5 miles wide , at an elevation of 8600 ft. Once you 're on the highway , two or three mountain bends out you 're sitting at about 10,000 feet with virtually no light pollution.I say all of this to help you understand that when you find somewhere that 's truly dark--and with significantly less atmosphere in the way--the milky way ceases to be a haze of stars , and starts to be millions of points of light .
It 's the most breathtaking sight I think I 've taken in so far in my 30 years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I go to Lake City, Colorado every other summer or so.
It's in rural SW Colorado, fulltime population ~200.
The town is one of a very few in Hinsdale County,  which has the lowest population density of any county in the lower 48 states.
Lake City sits in a mountain valley about 4 miles long by 1.5 miles wide, at an elevation of 8600 ft. Once you're on the highway, two or three mountain bends out you're sitting at about 10,000 feet with virtually no light pollution.I say all of this to help you understand that when you find somewhere that's truly dark--and with significantly less atmosphere in the way--the milky way ceases to be a haze of stars, and starts to be millions of points of light.
It's the most breathtaking sight I think I've taken in so far in my 30 years.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266617</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267327</id>
	<title>It's OK</title>
	<author>OrangeTide</author>
	<datestamp>1244568360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I already saw it on the internet.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I already saw it on the internet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I already saw it on the internet.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266903</id>
	<title>Re:Aaah... the lucky, lucky, people...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244567040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I totally agree</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I totally agree</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I totally agree</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266651</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28272587</id>
	<title>Constellation of the Emu</title>
	<author>GumphMaster</author>
	<datestamp>1244547300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you can see the Milky Way then it's worth pondering how other cultures interpreted the sky:

The Emu in the Sky
<a href="http://www.atnf.csiro.au/research/AboriginalAstronomy/Examples/emu.htm" title="csiro.au" rel="nofollow">http://www.atnf.csiro.au/research/AboriginalAstronomy/Examples/emu.htm</a> [csiro.au]</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you can see the Milky Way then it 's worth pondering how other cultures interpreted the sky : The Emu in the Sky http : //www.atnf.csiro.au/research/AboriginalAstronomy/Examples/emu.htm [ csiro.au ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you can see the Milky Way then it's worth pondering how other cultures interpreted the sky:

The Emu in the Sky
http://www.atnf.csiro.au/research/AboriginalAstronomy/Examples/emu.htm [csiro.au]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267883</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>johannesg</author>
	<datestamp>1244570640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I take issue with a number of things here...</p><p>A) Is this 1/5th immobile?  Can they not hop a commuter train to the suburbs or something?<br>I'd really like to know.</p> </div><p>Ok, first take a look <a href="http://www.blue-marble.de/night/Earthlights\_2002.png" title="blue-marble.de">here</a> [blue-marble.de]. Now look carefully on the western edge of Europe, in the country of the Netherlands. See that extremely bright spot stretching along the cost? I live right in the middle of that. Now look around that: everything is equally bright. The nearest darkish spots are to the south, in France, about 350km away.</p><p>Let's say I go to France, then. The train to Paris will take me there in about four hours, but I don't want to go to Paris, I want to head out into the dark spots. Have you ever noticed a train stopping in total darkness, in the absolute middle of nowhere-without-a-light? Right, neither have I. They stop in places with high enough population density to make a train stop useful. Those places typically have lots of light as well. So even if I were to make the additional train ride to get to an area that is at least semi-dark, I would still need to get out of the city I'm in and into the countryside to have any benefit.</p><p>I hope this explains to you why I have seen the milky way precisely \_once\_ in my entire life... And it was an unforgettable sight.</p><p><div class="quote"><p> I know that when I go out to see Dad in Wyoming the difference is absolutely noticeable, but I've always assumed that the same could be gained by finding some road-side location out in 'the sticks'.</p></div><p>I'll skip the obvious joke about your dad, but for some of us "the sticks" is two countries to the south...</p><p><div class="quote"><p>B) When is light 'pollution', and are we okay with (what I assume is) a situational definition of that word?  Is light 'pollution' when it comes out of your headlights?  Or only when Wal-Mart uses it to light their parking lot?  Is there some measurable standard of 'enough' light, and the excess is 'pollution'?  Or is it only 'pollution' when you want it to be dark?  I'd honestly like to know...</p></div><p>I don't know about the precise word "pollution", but it is certainly <i>undesirable</i> when it deprives us of something of awesome natural beauty - even if it serves some purpose in our industrial society.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>C) What does 'the arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet's natural heritage' mean, exactly?  Are we really weighing the advantages of light at night against 'natural heritage'?  Because, from where I sit, 'living in a cave, eating only what you can kill with a pointy stick' is also our 'natural heritage'.  The rest is technology at work, for better or worse.</p><p>It just strikes me as weird, and I'd love to hear voices from the other side of it.</p></div><p>What purpose does the grand canyon serve? Why not just make it the largest landfill in the world? What purpose does yellowstone serve? Why not build a city there so people can use the geisers for natural heating? What purpose does the arctic wildlife reserve serve? Why not dig the whole thing up and draw out every last drop of oil?</p><p>The sky is no different from that - even if you've never seen it with your own eyes.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I take issue with a number of things here...A ) Is this 1/5th immobile ?
Can they not hop a commuter train to the suburbs or something ? I 'd really like to know .
Ok , first take a look here [ blue-marble.de ] .
Now look carefully on the western edge of Europe , in the country of the Netherlands .
See that extremely bright spot stretching along the cost ?
I live right in the middle of that .
Now look around that : everything is equally bright .
The nearest darkish spots are to the south , in France , about 350km away.Let 's say I go to France , then .
The train to Paris will take me there in about four hours , but I do n't want to go to Paris , I want to head out into the dark spots .
Have you ever noticed a train stopping in total darkness , in the absolute middle of nowhere-without-a-light ?
Right , neither have I. They stop in places with high enough population density to make a train stop useful .
Those places typically have lots of light as well .
So even if I were to make the additional train ride to get to an area that is at least semi-dark , I would still need to get out of the city I 'm in and into the countryside to have any benefit.I hope this explains to you why I have seen the milky way precisely \ _once \ _ in my entire life... And it was an unforgettable sight .
I know that when I go out to see Dad in Wyoming the difference is absolutely noticeable , but I 've always assumed that the same could be gained by finding some road-side location out in 'the sticks'.I 'll skip the obvious joke about your dad , but for some of us " the sticks " is two countries to the south...B ) When is light 'pollution ' , and are we okay with ( what I assume is ) a situational definition of that word ?
Is light 'pollution ' when it comes out of your headlights ?
Or only when Wal-Mart uses it to light their parking lot ?
Is there some measurable standard of 'enough ' light , and the excess is 'pollution ' ?
Or is it only 'pollution ' when you want it to be dark ?
I 'd honestly like to know...I do n't know about the precise word " pollution " , but it is certainly undesirable when it deprives us of something of awesome natural beauty - even if it serves some purpose in our industrial society.C ) What does 'the arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet 's natural heritage ' mean , exactly ?
Are we really weighing the advantages of light at night against 'natural heritage ' ?
Because , from where I sit , 'living in a cave , eating only what you can kill with a pointy stick ' is also our 'natural heritage' .
The rest is technology at work , for better or worse.It just strikes me as weird , and I 'd love to hear voices from the other side of it.What purpose does the grand canyon serve ?
Why not just make it the largest landfill in the world ?
What purpose does yellowstone serve ?
Why not build a city there so people can use the geisers for natural heating ?
What purpose does the arctic wildlife reserve serve ?
Why not dig the whole thing up and draw out every last drop of oil ? The sky is no different from that - even if you 've never seen it with your own eyes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I take issue with a number of things here...A) Is this 1/5th immobile?
Can they not hop a commuter train to the suburbs or something?I'd really like to know.
Ok, first take a look here [blue-marble.de].
Now look carefully on the western edge of Europe, in the country of the Netherlands.
See that extremely bright spot stretching along the cost?
I live right in the middle of that.
Now look around that: everything is equally bright.
The nearest darkish spots are to the south, in France, about 350km away.Let's say I go to France, then.
The train to Paris will take me there in about four hours, but I don't want to go to Paris, I want to head out into the dark spots.
Have you ever noticed a train stopping in total darkness, in the absolute middle of nowhere-without-a-light?
Right, neither have I. They stop in places with high enough population density to make a train stop useful.
Those places typically have lots of light as well.
So even if I were to make the additional train ride to get to an area that is at least semi-dark, I would still need to get out of the city I'm in and into the countryside to have any benefit.I hope this explains to you why I have seen the milky way precisely \_once\_ in my entire life... And it was an unforgettable sight.
I know that when I go out to see Dad in Wyoming the difference is absolutely noticeable, but I've always assumed that the same could be gained by finding some road-side location out in 'the sticks'.I'll skip the obvious joke about your dad, but for some of us "the sticks" is two countries to the south...B) When is light 'pollution', and are we okay with (what I assume is) a situational definition of that word?
Is light 'pollution' when it comes out of your headlights?
Or only when Wal-Mart uses it to light their parking lot?
Is there some measurable standard of 'enough' light, and the excess is 'pollution'?
Or is it only 'pollution' when you want it to be dark?
I'd honestly like to know...I don't know about the precise word "pollution", but it is certainly undesirable when it deprives us of something of awesome natural beauty - even if it serves some purpose in our industrial society.C) What does 'the arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet's natural heritage' mean, exactly?
Are we really weighing the advantages of light at night against 'natural heritage'?
Because, from where I sit, 'living in a cave, eating only what you can kill with a pointy stick' is also our 'natural heritage'.
The rest is technology at work, for better or worse.It just strikes me as weird, and I'd love to hear voices from the other side of it.What purpose does the grand canyon serve?
Why not just make it the largest landfill in the world?
What purpose does yellowstone serve?
Why not build a city there so people can use the geisers for natural heating?
What purpose does the arctic wildlife reserve serve?
Why not dig the whole thing up and draw out every last drop of oil?The sky is no different from that - even if you've never seen it with your own eyes.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28273917</id>
	<title>My eyesight sucks..</title>
	<author>motherpusbucket</author>
	<datestamp>1244556900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I couldn't see it anyway.  I respectfully request to be removed from the statistics of this study.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I could n't see it anyway .
I respectfully request to be removed from the statistics of this study .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I couldn't see it anyway.
I respectfully request to be removed from the statistics of this study.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269599</id>
	<title>100\% Can't...</title>
	<author>DalGoda\_1</author>
	<datestamp>1244576640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The real sad part is that the article doesn't mention that 100\% of the world's population can't see the Milky Way during the day. And they wonder why man has always had the desire to destroy the sun.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The real sad part is that the article does n't mention that 100 \ % of the world 's population ca n't see the Milky Way during the day .
And they wonder why man has always had the desire to destroy the sun .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The real sad part is that the article doesn't mention that 100\% of the world's population can't see the Milky Way during the day.
And they wonder why man has always had the desire to destroy the sun.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266845</id>
	<title>and astronomer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244566860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>is a misnomer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>is a misnomer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>is a misnomer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270201</id>
	<title>Re:I can see about 20</title>
	<author>chaim79</author>
	<datestamp>1244579160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've never had any luck doing any 'long exposure' shots with DSLR, I've got an old German 35mm that I use instead, especially for Lightning, DSLR's just can't get a good lightning shot.</p><p>Though I'm no expert, I think the big problem is that the DSLR is too intelligent with long exposure, it's trying to average the light values over the entire x seconds that the shutter is open, and when a lightning strike happens the brilliance is averaged out until you can barely see it.</p><p>As for stars, I've never been able to get the focus right, auto focus doesn't work and manual focus is very difficult when trying to use the viewfinder to see if those very very tiny points of light are in clear focus are not.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've never had any luck doing any 'long exposure ' shots with DSLR , I 've got an old German 35mm that I use instead , especially for Lightning , DSLR 's just ca n't get a good lightning shot.Though I 'm no expert , I think the big problem is that the DSLR is too intelligent with long exposure , it 's trying to average the light values over the entire x seconds that the shutter is open , and when a lightning strike happens the brilliance is averaged out until you can barely see it.As for stars , I 've never been able to get the focus right , auto focus does n't work and manual focus is very difficult when trying to use the viewfinder to see if those very very tiny points of light are in clear focus are not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've never had any luck doing any 'long exposure' shots with DSLR, I've got an old German 35mm that I use instead, especially for Lightning, DSLR's just can't get a good lightning shot.Though I'm no expert, I think the big problem is that the DSLR is too intelligent with long exposure, it's trying to average the light values over the entire x seconds that the shutter is open, and when a lightning strike happens the brilliance is averaged out until you can barely see it.As for stars, I've never been able to get the focus right, auto focus doesn't work and manual focus is very difficult when trying to use the viewfinder to see if those very very tiny points of light are in clear focus are not.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266557</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267155</id>
	<title>Re:Well... I could.</title>
	<author>Smidge204</author>
	<datestamp>1244567760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are already a few laws and several incentives programs for dark-skies compliant exterior lighting in my area. The government and public utilities are taking it pretty seriously.</p><p>=Smidge=</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are already a few laws and several incentives programs for dark-skies compliant exterior lighting in my area .
The government and public utilities are taking it pretty seriously. = Smidge =</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are already a few laws and several incentives programs for dark-skies compliant exterior lighting in my area.
The government and public utilities are taking it pretty seriously.=Smidge=</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267005</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267247</id>
	<title>Yeah, but...</title>
	<author>bill\_kress</author>
	<datestamp>1244568120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm selling my house in Spokane. You can generally see the milky way, and hang out with the deer and elk while you do it.</p><p>Nice spot, 10 acres of farmland within viewing distance of a lake (barely), miles of bike trails along the river,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... but I couldn't take the trade-off.</p><p>You see, to get all that you have to live in Spokane.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm selling my house in Spokane .
You can generally see the milky way , and hang out with the deer and elk while you do it.Nice spot , 10 acres of farmland within viewing distance of a lake ( barely ) , miles of bike trails along the river , ... but I could n't take the trade-off.You see , to get all that you have to live in Spokane .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm selling my house in Spokane.
You can generally see the milky way, and hang out with the deer and elk while you do it.Nice spot, 10 acres of farmland within viewing distance of a lake (barely), miles of bike trails along the river, ... but I couldn't take the trade-off.You see, to get all that you have to live in Spokane.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270731</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>OrigamiMarie</author>
	<datestamp>1244538000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A)  Look at the other posts in this thread and see in what situations people saw the Milky Way.  They weren't in the burbs.  They weren't anywhere near where a train stops (maybe sort of near where on goes by at high speed).  You have to take a weekend vacation (at least) to get to where you can see the stars.  Starting from some extended metro areas (thankfully not mine), all you would get on that weekend is a lot of driving, some dinner, beautiful stars, some sleep, breakfast, and a lot of driving.  <br> <br>

B)  Light pollution happens in a bunch of ways.  Car headlights are definitely one way, and they are an insidious way because they set the dilation of your eyes to a point where all other lights out there have to be a certain brightness just to keep up.  If you are in the middle of nowhere and relying on a bright moon, you will see a lot more scenery (and stuff sneaking up on you) if you leave the flashlight off.  <br>
Another part of light pollution happens because City Light departments insist upon using street lights that cast light in more than just the down direction.  There are light fixtures that only point light down, and plastic skirt-like thingies that fix up other lights to behave the same way.  Cities are cheap as a rule though, so anything that reduces the amount of light that floods everywhere from a light, or makes the light more expensive, or might require maintenance (like the skirt thingies), won't fly.  In my city, they got one lawsuit from someone who was attacked in a dark zone caused by a maladjusted streetlight skirt, and now the city has taken off all of the existing ones and won't put any on.  Lights that shine sideways will shine in your windows and mess with most people's sleep (whether they know it or not), and lights that point partly up will light up the sky and reduce your star count pretty quickly.  <br> <br>

C)  More tech actually helps.  Cities are cheap though.  Work out the details so that your streetlights only light what they're supposed to, and the light will be a little more expensive and many cities won't buy.  Improve the the tech some more so that it's cheaper (per well-lit area), and it will become the default for cities.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A ) Look at the other posts in this thread and see in what situations people saw the Milky Way .
They were n't in the burbs .
They were n't anywhere near where a train stops ( maybe sort of near where on goes by at high speed ) .
You have to take a weekend vacation ( at least ) to get to where you can see the stars .
Starting from some extended metro areas ( thankfully not mine ) , all you would get on that weekend is a lot of driving , some dinner , beautiful stars , some sleep , breakfast , and a lot of driving .
B ) Light pollution happens in a bunch of ways .
Car headlights are definitely one way , and they are an insidious way because they set the dilation of your eyes to a point where all other lights out there have to be a certain brightness just to keep up .
If you are in the middle of nowhere and relying on a bright moon , you will see a lot more scenery ( and stuff sneaking up on you ) if you leave the flashlight off .
Another part of light pollution happens because City Light departments insist upon using street lights that cast light in more than just the down direction .
There are light fixtures that only point light down , and plastic skirt-like thingies that fix up other lights to behave the same way .
Cities are cheap as a rule though , so anything that reduces the amount of light that floods everywhere from a light , or makes the light more expensive , or might require maintenance ( like the skirt thingies ) , wo n't fly .
In my city , they got one lawsuit from someone who was attacked in a dark zone caused by a maladjusted streetlight skirt , and now the city has taken off all of the existing ones and wo n't put any on .
Lights that shine sideways will shine in your windows and mess with most people 's sleep ( whether they know it or not ) , and lights that point partly up will light up the sky and reduce your star count pretty quickly .
C ) More tech actually helps .
Cities are cheap though .
Work out the details so that your streetlights only light what they 're supposed to , and the light will be a little more expensive and many cities wo n't buy .
Improve the the tech some more so that it 's cheaper ( per well-lit area ) , and it will become the default for cities .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A)  Look at the other posts in this thread and see in what situations people saw the Milky Way.
They weren't in the burbs.
They weren't anywhere near where a train stops (maybe sort of near where on goes by at high speed).
You have to take a weekend vacation (at least) to get to where you can see the stars.
Starting from some extended metro areas (thankfully not mine), all you would get on that weekend is a lot of driving, some dinner, beautiful stars, some sleep, breakfast, and a lot of driving.
B)  Light pollution happens in a bunch of ways.
Car headlights are definitely one way, and they are an insidious way because they set the dilation of your eyes to a point where all other lights out there have to be a certain brightness just to keep up.
If you are in the middle of nowhere and relying on a bright moon, you will see a lot more scenery (and stuff sneaking up on you) if you leave the flashlight off.
Another part of light pollution happens because City Light departments insist upon using street lights that cast light in more than just the down direction.
There are light fixtures that only point light down, and plastic skirt-like thingies that fix up other lights to behave the same way.
Cities are cheap as a rule though, so anything that reduces the amount of light that floods everywhere from a light, or makes the light more expensive, or might require maintenance (like the skirt thingies), won't fly.
In my city, they got one lawsuit from someone who was attacked in a dark zone caused by a maladjusted streetlight skirt, and now the city has taken off all of the existing ones and won't put any on.
Lights that shine sideways will shine in your windows and mess with most people's sleep (whether they know it or not), and lights that point partly up will light up the sky and reduce your star count pretty quickly.
C)  More tech actually helps.
Cities are cheap though.
Work out the details so that your streetlights only light what they're supposed to, and the light will be a little more expensive and many cities won't buy.
Improve the the tech some more so that it's cheaper (per well-lit area), and it will become the default for cities.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267151</id>
	<title>Re:Well... I could.</title>
	<author>camg188</author>
	<datestamp>1244567760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>See the milky way or don't live in the dark.  I think 99\% of the population would choose one over the other.</htmltext>
<tokenext>See the milky way or do n't live in the dark .
I think 99 \ % of the population would choose one over the other .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>See the milky way or don't live in the dark.
I think 99\% of the population would choose one over the other.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266443</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28273351</id>
	<title>Re:Unfortunate consequences of life</title>
	<author>Carnildo</author>
	<datestamp>1244552460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>And as others have pointed out, it's not as if those things are completely gone. Take a bus or a train ride. Drive out to the middle of nowhere.</p></div></blockquote><p>They may not be completely gone, but they're vanishing fast.  The only patch of truly dark sky in all of Europe is a small area in northern Sweden.  The US has a number of areas in the Rockies and northern Nevada, and a few in Montana and South Dakota, but nothing east of the Mississippi (a small patch of West Virginia comes close).  Japan and South Korea have nothing.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And as others have pointed out , it 's not as if those things are completely gone .
Take a bus or a train ride .
Drive out to the middle of nowhere.They may not be completely gone , but they 're vanishing fast .
The only patch of truly dark sky in all of Europe is a small area in northern Sweden .
The US has a number of areas in the Rockies and northern Nevada , and a few in Montana and South Dakota , but nothing east of the Mississippi ( a small patch of West Virginia comes close ) .
Japan and South Korea have nothing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And as others have pointed out, it's not as if those things are completely gone.
Take a bus or a train ride.
Drive out to the middle of nowhere.They may not be completely gone, but they're vanishing fast.
The only patch of truly dark sky in all of Europe is a small area in northern Sweden.
The US has a number of areas in the Rockies and northern Nevada, and a few in Montana and South Dakota, but nothing east of the Mississippi (a small patch of West Virginia comes close).
Japan and South Korea have nothing.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268017</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267487</id>
	<title>Re:You have to get away ...</title>
	<author>barzok</author>
	<datestamp>1244569020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>1. In the middle of the Atlantic on a boat</p></div></blockquote><p>What kind of boat? I'm going on a cruise in a few months and I'm guessing that the deck lights will be bright enough that it'll wash out any hopes of getting good sky views.</p><p>My son will be 3 then, I'm hoping he'll be old enough to be awed by the sky; too many trees to see much at home.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
In the middle of the Atlantic on a boatWhat kind of boat ?
I 'm going on a cruise in a few months and I 'm guessing that the deck lights will be bright enough that it 'll wash out any hopes of getting good sky views.My son will be 3 then , I 'm hoping he 'll be old enough to be awed by the sky ; too many trees to see much at home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
In the middle of the Atlantic on a boatWhat kind of boat?
I'm going on a cruise in a few months and I'm guessing that the deck lights will be bright enough that it'll wash out any hopes of getting good sky views.My son will be 3 then, I'm hoping he'll be old enough to be awed by the sky; too many trees to see much at home.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266563</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28274945</id>
	<title>Paul</title>
	<author>Paulo357</author>
	<datestamp>1244566200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I would urge all readers to petition their Councils and Power authorities to set codes of conduct to limit light pollution. It only requires a few words in their maintenance contracts stipulating all replacement streetlight fittings reflect 99\% of their light downward, Manufactures would then produce deeper reflectors in order to sell products that reach the code and eventually things would improve.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would urge all readers to petition their Councils and Power authorities to set codes of conduct to limit light pollution .
It only requires a few words in their maintenance contracts stipulating all replacement streetlight fittings reflect 99 \ % of their light downward , Manufactures would then produce deeper reflectors in order to sell products that reach the code and eventually things would improve .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would urge all readers to petition their Councils and Power authorities to set codes of conduct to limit light pollution.
It only requires a few words in their maintenance contracts stipulating all replacement streetlight fittings reflect 99\% of their light downward, Manufactures would then produce deeper reflectors in order to sell products that reach the code and eventually things would improve.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28274613</id>
	<title>What a bunch of pessimists...</title>
	<author>sjs132</author>
	<datestamp>1244563140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is typical environmental Dogma.  Lets break it down...</p><p>1) <b>"Light pollution"</b> -- So you've already been conditioned that pollution is bad, therefore, what you are about to read is bad.</p><p>2) <b>"has caused one-fifth of the world's population"</b> -- OMG! 1/5... Yes, that means that four-fifths has NO problem seeing the milky way.    That is in POPULATION numbers.  Lets do math<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:) 6,706,993,152 (July 2008 est.)  and 4/5 = 5,365,594,521.6  (That<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.6 must be me.) Ok, that works out to 80\% of the worlds population CAN see the milkyway.    So, Whats the problem again?</p><p>3)<b>"mostly in Europe, Britain and the US"</b> -- Oh... I see, boo-hoo.. I don't know about who "US" are because I can see it just fine from my house, so it must really be You.   THEN MOVE.</p><p>4)<b>"'The arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet's natural heritage,' said Connie Walker"</b>  REALLY?  I thought our planet's natural heritage was to vilently erupt spewing lava over insignificant surface dwellers.  Maybe to freeze and build up encroaching ice over the surface?  I think that if you look at the geological timeline, we have admired the milkyway for but a briefest of moments to the planet.   So, where is the heritage?  Oh yes, in our feeble minds.</p><p>5) The rest just reitterates the negative because "a lie told enough times will become the truth."</p><p>I'm sick of this cult.  When will they go away?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is typical environmental Dogma .
Lets break it down...1 ) " Light pollution " -- So you 've already been conditioned that pollution is bad , therefore , what you are about to read is bad.2 ) " has caused one-fifth of the world 's population " -- OMG !
1/5... Yes , that means that four-fifths has NO problem seeing the milky way .
That is in POPULATION numbers .
Lets do math : ) 6,706,993,152 ( July 2008 est .
) and 4/5 = 5,365,594,521.6 ( That .6 must be me .
) Ok , that works out to 80 \ % of the worlds population CAN see the milkyway .
So , Whats the problem again ? 3 ) " mostly in Europe , Britain and the US " -- Oh... I see , boo-hoo.. I do n't know about who " US " are because I can see it just fine from my house , so it must really be You .
THEN MOVE.4 ) " 'The arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet 's natural heritage, ' said Connie Walker " REALLY ?
I thought our planet 's natural heritage was to vilently erupt spewing lava over insignificant surface dwellers .
Maybe to freeze and build up encroaching ice over the surface ?
I think that if you look at the geological timeline , we have admired the milkyway for but a briefest of moments to the planet .
So , where is the heritage ?
Oh yes , in our feeble minds.5 ) The rest just reitterates the negative because " a lie told enough times will become the truth .
" I 'm sick of this cult .
When will they go away ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is typical environmental Dogma.
Lets break it down...1) "Light pollution" -- So you've already been conditioned that pollution is bad, therefore, what you are about to read is bad.2) "has caused one-fifth of the world's population" -- OMG!
1/5... Yes, that means that four-fifths has NO problem seeing the milky way.
That is in POPULATION numbers.
Lets do math :) 6,706,993,152 (July 2008 est.
)  and 4/5 = 5,365,594,521.6  (That .6 must be me.
) Ok, that works out to 80\% of the worlds population CAN see the milkyway.
So, Whats the problem again?3)"mostly in Europe, Britain and the US" -- Oh... I see, boo-hoo.. I don't know about who "US" are because I can see it just fine from my house, so it must really be You.
THEN MOVE.4)"'The arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet's natural heritage,' said Connie Walker"  REALLY?
I thought our planet's natural heritage was to vilently erupt spewing lava over insignificant surface dwellers.
Maybe to freeze and build up encroaching ice over the surface?
I think that if you look at the geological timeline, we have admired the milkyway for but a briefest of moments to the planet.
So, where is the heritage?
Oh yes, in our feeble minds.5) The rest just reitterates the negative because "a lie told enough times will become the truth.
"I'm sick of this cult.
When will they go away?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267655</id>
	<title>Re:I can see about 20</title>
	<author>seann</author>
	<datestamp>1244569680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>if you expose for too long, you'll get star streaks, but if you use too high of an iso, you'll get noise.</p><p>city lights suck.</p><p>lens hoods ftw.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>if you expose for too long , you 'll get star streaks , but if you use too high of an iso , you 'll get noise.city lights suck.lens hoods ftw .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if you expose for too long, you'll get star streaks, but if you use too high of an iso, you'll get noise.city lights suck.lens hoods ftw.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266557</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267391</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>JasterBobaMereel</author>
	<datestamp>1244568600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My experience is that anywhere you can reasonably travel to on train still has light pollution so you still cannot see the Milky way<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... more stars but not all of them</p><p>It's light pollution when it goes up into the sky<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.... what is it lighting up : nothing, it wastes energy and has no purpose!</p><p>From where I live  I cannot see the milky way, not because it is not there but because of the town I live in lights up the sky at night, many of the lights are very wasteful and are lighting up empty car parks, buildings etc, the few that are needed are sending half of their light upwards and not helping to light up what they are trying to, they are just wasting energy... so people are wasting energy to deprive me of a dark sky<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My experience is that anywhere you can reasonably travel to on train still has light pollution so you still can not see the Milky way ... more stars but not all of themIt 's light pollution when it goes up into the sky .... what is it lighting up : nothing , it wastes energy and has no purpose ! From where I live I can not see the milky way , not because it is not there but because of the town I live in lights up the sky at night , many of the lights are very wasteful and are lighting up empty car parks , buildings etc , the few that are needed are sending half of their light upwards and not helping to light up what they are trying to , they are just wasting energy... so people are wasting energy to deprive me of a dark sky ... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My experience is that anywhere you can reasonably travel to on train still has light pollution so you still cannot see the Milky way ... more stars but not all of themIt's light pollution when it goes up into the sky .... what is it lighting up : nothing, it wastes energy and has no purpose!From where I live  I cannot see the milky way, not because it is not there but because of the town I live in lights up the sky at night, many of the lights are very wasteful and are lighting up empty car parks, buildings etc, the few that are needed are sending half of their light upwards and not helping to light up what they are trying to, they are just wasting energy... so people are wasting energy to deprive me of a dark sky ....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28288501</id>
	<title>Find some dark sky near you.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244647500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not my website, so I apologize in advance to the host for the slashdotting but:</p><p><a href="http://www.jshine.net/astronomy/dark\_sky/" title="jshine.net" rel="nofollow">http://www.jshine.net/astronomy/dark\_sky/</a> [jshine.net]</p><p>A nice Google map interface that shows you levels of light pollution for the USA.  It goes from 0 (Like my hometown, Boston, MA) to 7 (Like the middle-of-nowhere, Maine).</p><p>Apparently the awe inspiring view I experienced in Vermont is only a level 4, I'm definitely going to have to make the road trip up to Maine and have my mind blown by perfectly dark sky.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not my website , so I apologize in advance to the host for the slashdotting but : http : //www.jshine.net/astronomy/dark \ _sky/ [ jshine.net ] A nice Google map interface that shows you levels of light pollution for the USA .
It goes from 0 ( Like my hometown , Boston , MA ) to 7 ( Like the middle-of-nowhere , Maine ) .Apparently the awe inspiring view I experienced in Vermont is only a level 4 , I 'm definitely going to have to make the road trip up to Maine and have my mind blown by perfectly dark sky .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not my website, so I apologize in advance to the host for the slashdotting but:http://www.jshine.net/astronomy/dark\_sky/ [jshine.net]A nice Google map interface that shows you levels of light pollution for the USA.
It goes from 0 (Like my hometown, Boston, MA) to 7 (Like the middle-of-nowhere, Maine).Apparently the awe inspiring view I experienced in Vermont is only a level 4, I'm definitely going to have to make the road trip up to Maine and have my mind blown by perfectly dark sky.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28275255</id>
	<title>Very believable based upon personal experience...</title>
	<author>Enter the Shoggoth</author>
	<datestamp>1244568840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I was at University I enrolled in an Astronomy course. One weekend I arranged with one of the professors to borrow one of the departments telescopes and took a few friends from the class to the area my family lived in (about 100km outside of the city).</p><p>It turned out to be not very pleasant weather, but we waited a couple of hours and by about 1am the weather started to clear: I pointed out the Milky Way to the others who were with me and it then took me a further 1/2 hour to convince them that the stuff I was pointing to was indeed stars and not just a bunch of cloud: none of my class mates had really spent much time outside of the city.</p><p>I found this both amusing and disturbing at the same time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was at University I enrolled in an Astronomy course .
One weekend I arranged with one of the professors to borrow one of the departments telescopes and took a few friends from the class to the area my family lived in ( about 100km outside of the city ) .It turned out to be not very pleasant weather , but we waited a couple of hours and by about 1am the weather started to clear : I pointed out the Milky Way to the others who were with me and it then took me a further 1/2 hour to convince them that the stuff I was pointing to was indeed stars and not just a bunch of cloud : none of my class mates had really spent much time outside of the city.I found this both amusing and disturbing at the same time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was at University I enrolled in an Astronomy course.
One weekend I arranged with one of the professors to borrow one of the departments telescopes and took a few friends from the class to the area my family lived in (about 100km outside of the city).It turned out to be not very pleasant weather, but we waited a couple of hours and by about 1am the weather started to clear: I pointed out the Milky Way to the others who were with me and it then took me a further 1/2 hour to convince them that the stuff I was pointing to was indeed stars and not just a bunch of cloud: none of my class mates had really spent much time outside of the city.I found this both amusing and disturbing at the same time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266649</id>
	<title>Not pollution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244566260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Photons are not pollution in my opinion.</p><p>I love stargazing and space in general, but some of these folks are bigger hysterics than the peak oil folks.</p><p>I see this as the phoniest of the phony baloney eco-greeny flavor of the month stuff we are getting from every corner.</p><p>Where you can show where humans are adversy effected health-wise and balance it against the very sound reasons we light shit up, I'm okay with it.</p><p>But calling it pollution is about as unsciency as oil "addictions" and other nonsense we are flooded with more and more.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Photons are not pollution in my opinion.I love stargazing and space in general , but some of these folks are bigger hysterics than the peak oil folks.I see this as the phoniest of the phony baloney eco-greeny flavor of the month stuff we are getting from every corner.Where you can show where humans are adversy effected health-wise and balance it against the very sound reasons we light shit up , I 'm okay with it.But calling it pollution is about as unsciency as oil " addictions " and other nonsense we are flooded with more and more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Photons are not pollution in my opinion.I love stargazing and space in general, but some of these folks are bigger hysterics than the peak oil folks.I see this as the phoniest of the phony baloney eco-greeny flavor of the month stuff we are getting from every corner.Where you can show where humans are adversy effected health-wise and balance it against the very sound reasons we light shit up, I'm okay with it.But calling it pollution is about as unsciency as oil "addictions" and other nonsense we are flooded with more and more.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267505</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>0xdeadbeef</author>
	<datestamp>1244569080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, it does interfere with professional astronomy. Many observatories have closed or been relocated due to light pollution. Governments have instituted <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark\_Sky\_preserve" title="wikipedia.org">dark sky preserves</a> [wikipedia.org] to protect the value of observatories and national parks.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , it does interfere with professional astronomy .
Many observatories have closed or been relocated due to light pollution .
Governments have instituted dark sky preserves [ wikipedia.org ] to protect the value of observatories and national parks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, it does interfere with professional astronomy.
Many observatories have closed or been relocated due to light pollution.
Governments have instituted dark sky preserves [wikipedia.org] to protect the value of observatories and national parks.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267755</id>
	<title>and when you can see, you don't know what it is</title>
	<author>crazybilly</author>
	<datestamp>1244570040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I had a (city) friend on a camping trip basically call me a liar when I told him that white/gray strip of glowing in the middle of the night sky was the Milky Way.
<p>
Despite the fact that he couldn't begin to suggest what else it might be.
</p><p>
Poor kids didn't grow up seeing it every night--don't even knwo what it is.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I had a ( city ) friend on a camping trip basically call me a liar when I told him that white/gray strip of glowing in the middle of the night sky was the Milky Way .
Despite the fact that he could n't begin to suggest what else it might be .
Poor kids did n't grow up seeing it every night--do n't even knwo what it is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had a (city) friend on a camping trip basically call me a liar when I told him that white/gray strip of glowing in the middle of the night sky was the Milky Way.
Despite the fact that he couldn't begin to suggest what else it might be.
Poor kids didn't grow up seeing it every night--don't even knwo what it is.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268891</id>
	<title>Re:Uggg</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244574300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>well said!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>well said !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>well said!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267851</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266729</id>
	<title>Light pollution is fixable</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244566500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If we could start getting in the habit of focusing our lights down through the use of hoods and lamp covers we could probably make fast, cheap improvements on this problem. Light is wasted going up, with the exception of cool satellite shots showing the Earth at night. I for one would love to be able to see more than magnitude 1 and brighter stars from my rooftop in Brooklyn.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If we could start getting in the habit of focusing our lights down through the use of hoods and lamp covers we could probably make fast , cheap improvements on this problem .
Light is wasted going up , with the exception of cool satellite shots showing the Earth at night .
I for one would love to be able to see more than magnitude 1 and brighter stars from my rooftop in Brooklyn .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If we could start getting in the habit of focusing our lights down through the use of hoods and lamp covers we could probably make fast, cheap improvements on this problem.
Light is wasted going up, with the exception of cool satellite shots showing the Earth at night.
I for one would love to be able to see more than magnitude 1 and brighter stars from my rooftop in Brooklyn.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266693</id>
	<title>Actually, now \_everyone\_ can see the Milky Way</title>
	<author>dotancohen</author>
	<datestamp>1244566380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>All the new convenience stores they've built that shed all the light, also stock Milky Way. I prefer Snickers, though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>All the new convenience stores they 've built that shed all the light , also stock Milky Way .
I prefer Snickers , though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All the new convenience stores they've built that shed all the light, also stock Milky Way.
I prefer Snickers, though.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28277187</id>
	<title>Re:Europe, Britain and the US</title>
	<author>YourExperiment</author>
	<datestamp>1244631660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>When did Britain get moved to a different continent?  Or did we get upgraded?</p></div><p>Apparently there's a similar problem with light pollution in Kansas, Texas and the United States.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>When did Britain get moved to a different continent ?
Or did we get upgraded ? Apparently there 's a similar problem with light pollution in Kansas , Texas and the United States .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When did Britain get moved to a different continent?
Or did we get upgraded?Apparently there's a similar problem with light pollution in Kansas, Texas and the United States.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267043</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267941</id>
	<title>Life, Universe and Everything Else...</title>
	<author>creimer</author>
	<datestamp>1244570940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There was a big meteor shower in August in 1993 that was busier than normal.  Everyone and their dog headed for the observatory in the east.  My roommates and I found a nice hill side about 20 miles south to lay back and watch the shower.  The band of light from the Milky Way was hanging over head as we discussed life and philosophy.  Only when we were leaving did we discover that the hill side was the backside of the county dump.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There was a big meteor shower in August in 1993 that was busier than normal .
Everyone and their dog headed for the observatory in the east .
My roommates and I found a nice hill side about 20 miles south to lay back and watch the shower .
The band of light from the Milky Way was hanging over head as we discussed life and philosophy .
Only when we were leaving did we discover that the hill side was the backside of the county dump .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There was a big meteor shower in August in 1993 that was busier than normal.
Everyone and their dog headed for the observatory in the east.
My roommates and I found a nice hill side about 20 miles south to lay back and watch the shower.
The band of light from the Milky Way was hanging over head as we discussed life and philosophy.
Only when we were leaving did we discover that the hill side was the backside of the county dump.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266579</id>
	<title>Stars at night</title>
	<author>lymond01</author>
	<datestamp>1244566080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, I won't continue with the Texas theme song.</p><p>But I will say that having lived on Nantucket Island, New York City, and now California's Central Valley, I definitely appreciate going back to the sandbar and seeing what a night sky really looks like.  I did spend a night in the Badlands of South Dakota -- and I think that is the most stars I've ever seen...it was like the entire sky wasn't black with pinpoints of light, but more of a fuzzy white with brighter spots.  Truly amazing until the buffalo attack... (kidding)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , I wo n't continue with the Texas theme song.But I will say that having lived on Nantucket Island , New York City , and now California 's Central Valley , I definitely appreciate going back to the sandbar and seeing what a night sky really looks like .
I did spend a night in the Badlands of South Dakota -- and I think that is the most stars I 've ever seen...it was like the entire sky was n't black with pinpoints of light , but more of a fuzzy white with brighter spots .
Truly amazing until the buffalo attack... ( kidding )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, I won't continue with the Texas theme song.But I will say that having lived on Nantucket Island, New York City, and now California's Central Valley, I definitely appreciate going back to the sandbar and seeing what a night sky really looks like.
I did spend a night in the Badlands of South Dakota -- and I think that is the most stars I've ever seen...it was like the entire sky wasn't black with pinpoints of light, but more of a fuzzy white with brighter spots.
Truly amazing until the buffalo attack... (kidding)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267851</id>
	<title>Uggg</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244570520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In a world of violence, famine, plagues, tryanny, bigotry, hate... I really wish "scientist" could find practical things to bitch about like millions starving, etc. Seriously of all the things to whine about... light pollution.</p><p>Oh crap Johnny can't see the milky way, we need to do something about that! Of course Johnny can't go outside at night because of gangs and his dad can't afford to buy him shoes but those problems are small in comparison to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... light pollution?</p><p>Listen, there are always trade offs in life. I for one have no issue with the view because I am too busy working to walk around with my eyes staring at the sky. Some of us have jobs. When we get home we do dishes, laundry, clean, and<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... if we are lucky get an hour to catch the news and a TV show. That's the trade off living near cities.</p><p>Yeah light pollution is a problem like Brittney Spears getting a Grammy. How about feeding people, reducing traffic etc... There are plenty of real issues to worry about...</p><p>Better yet "scientist" when you are done bitching about light pollution why don't you do something about that 'other' kind of pollution that acutally harms people.</p><p>Jesus Christ People Get Your Priorities Straight!? Has the Ivory Tower crowd finally jumped the shark these days? LIGHT POLLUTION?! Damn must be a slow news day...</p><p>If you want to go see the Milk Way, DRIVE AWAY FROM THE CITIES!? I know those urbanites think there is no universe outside of the shadow of a sky scraper but you can get in this thing called a vechicle (if your aching green earth worrshipping moral code allows you to sit in one) and drive yourself about 40 minutes outside your crime infested rotting from the inside steel wasteland and look up and see it. They also have these HUGE collections of trees called FORESTS you might get to see...<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/RANT</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In a world of violence , famine , plagues , tryanny , bigotry , hate... I really wish " scientist " could find practical things to bitch about like millions starving , etc .
Seriously of all the things to whine about... light pollution.Oh crap Johnny ca n't see the milky way , we need to do something about that !
Of course Johnny ca n't go outside at night because of gangs and his dad ca n't afford to buy him shoes but those problems are small in comparison to ... light pollution ? Listen , there are always trade offs in life .
I for one have no issue with the view because I am too busy working to walk around with my eyes staring at the sky .
Some of us have jobs .
When we get home we do dishes , laundry , clean , and ... if we are lucky get an hour to catch the news and a TV show .
That 's the trade off living near cities.Yeah light pollution is a problem like Brittney Spears getting a Grammy .
How about feeding people , reducing traffic etc... There are plenty of real issues to worry about...Better yet " scientist " when you are done bitching about light pollution why do n't you do something about that 'other ' kind of pollution that acutally harms people.Jesus Christ People Get Your Priorities Straight ! ?
Has the Ivory Tower crowd finally jumped the shark these days ?
LIGHT POLLUTION ? !
Damn must be a slow news day...If you want to go see the Milk Way , DRIVE AWAY FROM THE CITIES ! ?
I know those urbanites think there is no universe outside of the shadow of a sky scraper but you can get in this thing called a vechicle ( if your aching green earth worrshipping moral code allows you to sit in one ) and drive yourself about 40 minutes outside your crime infested rotting from the inside steel wasteland and look up and see it .
They also have these HUGE collections of trees called FORESTS you might get to see... /RANT</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In a world of violence, famine, plagues, tryanny, bigotry, hate... I really wish "scientist" could find practical things to bitch about like millions starving, etc.
Seriously of all the things to whine about... light pollution.Oh crap Johnny can't see the milky way, we need to do something about that!
Of course Johnny can't go outside at night because of gangs and his dad can't afford to buy him shoes but those problems are small in comparison to ... light pollution?Listen, there are always trade offs in life.
I for one have no issue with the view because I am too busy working to walk around with my eyes staring at the sky.
Some of us have jobs.
When we get home we do dishes, laundry, clean, and ... if we are lucky get an hour to catch the news and a TV show.
That's the trade off living near cities.Yeah light pollution is a problem like Brittney Spears getting a Grammy.
How about feeding people, reducing traffic etc... There are plenty of real issues to worry about...Better yet "scientist" when you are done bitching about light pollution why don't you do something about that 'other' kind of pollution that acutally harms people.Jesus Christ People Get Your Priorities Straight!?
Has the Ivory Tower crowd finally jumped the shark these days?
LIGHT POLLUTION?!
Damn must be a slow news day...If you want to go see the Milk Way, DRIVE AWAY FROM THE CITIES!?
I know those urbanites think there is no universe outside of the shadow of a sky scraper but you can get in this thing called a vechicle (if your aching green earth worrshipping moral code allows you to sit in one) and drive yourself about 40 minutes outside your crime infested rotting from the inside steel wasteland and look up and see it.
They also have these HUGE collections of trees called FORESTS you might get to see... /RANT</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270307</id>
	<title>No problem here.</title>
	<author>GameMaster</author>
	<datestamp>1244579460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can see the Milkyway just fine here in the Chicago area, day or night.  The trick is, instead of looking up, look down and, unless the fog is really heavy, you'll be looking at part of the Milkyway (though, technically, I guess the fog would be part of the Milkyway too).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I can see the Milkyway just fine here in the Chicago area , day or night .
The trick is , instead of looking up , look down and , unless the fog is really heavy , you 'll be looking at part of the Milkyway ( though , technically , I guess the fog would be part of the Milkyway too ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can see the Milkyway just fine here in the Chicago area, day or night.
The trick is, instead of looking up, look down and, unless the fog is really heavy, you'll be looking at part of the Milkyway (though, technically, I guess the fog would be part of the Milkyway too).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267603</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>Steauengeglase</author>
	<datestamp>1244569500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Insensitive clod! A gamma-ray burst took out my passenger tire last week!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Insensitive clod !
A gamma-ray burst took out my passenger tire last week !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Insensitive clod!
A gamma-ray burst took out my passenger tire last week!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266863</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267965</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244571000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They don't light the streets in Tucson so you can't see the potholes...</p><p>Has nothing to do with light pollution....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They do n't light the streets in Tucson so you ca n't see the potholes...Has nothing to do with light pollution... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They don't light the streets in Tucson so you can't see the potholes...Has nothing to do with light pollution....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266863</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266909</id>
	<title>Pity...</title>
	<author>anonieuweling</author>
	<datestamp>1244567040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I saw it while in Australia, I am living in Europe.<br>
It indeed is not good, not at all to see over here...<br>
Which is a pity and perhaps worse.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I saw it while in Australia , I am living in Europe .
It indeed is not good , not at all to see over here.. . Which is a pity and perhaps worse .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I saw it while in Australia, I am living in Europe.
It indeed is not good, not at all to see over here...
Which is a pity and perhaps worse.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269165</id>
	<title>It's tough to find a good, deep dark in LA</title>
	<author>eamonman</author>
	<datestamp>1244575260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can't find the link now, but 2-3 years ago, I referred to a nice google-ized dark sky map that seemed to indicate the darkest area near LA (that isn't too insane of a drive) is kind of around a campsite/parking lot near Mt. Pinos (up the 5, off the Frazier Mt exit).<br>A few friends and I drove there after work, to get a good view of the Perseids.  That was amazing.  The milky way, the shower, everything was cool.  In California, I only recall seeing darkness like that going up the 395 to Mammoth and in a secluded camp near Big Sur.  Otherwise, there is no good dark near LA.  Even once I was in the Mojave Nat'l preserve and there was light pollution (some from San Bernadino, but there was still that damn glow from LA)</p><p>But as good as it was, I really wouldn't want to drive ~2 hours on a regular basis to see the milky way.  It's not that I'm immobile.  I would go nuts driving that much everyday.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I ca n't find the link now , but 2-3 years ago , I referred to a nice google-ized dark sky map that seemed to indicate the darkest area near LA ( that is n't too insane of a drive ) is kind of around a campsite/parking lot near Mt .
Pinos ( up the 5 , off the Frazier Mt exit ) .A few friends and I drove there after work , to get a good view of the Perseids .
That was amazing .
The milky way , the shower , everything was cool .
In California , I only recall seeing darkness like that going up the 395 to Mammoth and in a secluded camp near Big Sur .
Otherwise , there is no good dark near LA .
Even once I was in the Mojave Nat'l preserve and there was light pollution ( some from San Bernadino , but there was still that damn glow from LA ) But as good as it was , I really would n't want to drive ~ 2 hours on a regular basis to see the milky way .
It 's not that I 'm immobile .
I would go nuts driving that much everyday .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can't find the link now, but 2-3 years ago, I referred to a nice google-ized dark sky map that seemed to indicate the darkest area near LA (that isn't too insane of a drive) is kind of around a campsite/parking lot near Mt.
Pinos (up the 5, off the Frazier Mt exit).A few friends and I drove there after work, to get a good view of the Perseids.
That was amazing.
The milky way, the shower, everything was cool.
In California, I only recall seeing darkness like that going up the 395 to Mammoth and in a secluded camp near Big Sur.
Otherwise, there is no good dark near LA.
Even once I was in the Mojave Nat'l preserve and there was light pollution (some from San Bernadino, but there was still that damn glow from LA)But as good as it was, I really wouldn't want to drive ~2 hours on a regular basis to see the milky way.
It's not that I'm immobile.
I would go nuts driving that much everyday.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267353</id>
	<title>Bah.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244568420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>People live in \_cities\_. Cities have lights.</p><p>The summary suggests that 2/3 of America is covered in "light pollution." No, 2/3 of the population is living concentrated in cities large enough to block out the stars, in a total area which is insignificant compared to the size of the nation. I used to live in a (Canadian) town of one million. When the Perseids came through my friends and I drove an hour out of town and watched them. I hate the term "light pollution" because it suggests that light is something like smog, which you can't, you know, \_just turn off\_. Granted, we don't, but ffs don't call it pollution, call it interference.</p><p>I grew up in the country. It always feels mildly offensive when people shriek about the global effects of humanity's efforts and pollution and whatnot. Sure, if you live in the middle of a major city and never leave, it must seem like the entire world is glass and steel, but cities and roads are specks and narrow lines spread across a vast territory that's otherwise taken up with Nature. And, might I add, Nature does a pretty good job of reclaiming anything we don't spend time and energy to keep tidy. I've seen big construction sites and the effort it takes to put something up, and I've seen the abandoned houses and schools and roads in areas not serviced by major highways.</p><p>Human effort to push back Nature only seems impressive if you stay in those areas where we won. If you step outside, you'll see entire buildings consumed incidentally in the process of Nature going about its business.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People live in \ _cities \ _ .
Cities have lights.The summary suggests that 2/3 of America is covered in " light pollution .
" No , 2/3 of the population is living concentrated in cities large enough to block out the stars , in a total area which is insignificant compared to the size of the nation .
I used to live in a ( Canadian ) town of one million .
When the Perseids came through my friends and I drove an hour out of town and watched them .
I hate the term " light pollution " because it suggests that light is something like smog , which you ca n't , you know , \ _just turn off \ _ .
Granted , we do n't , but ffs do n't call it pollution , call it interference.I grew up in the country .
It always feels mildly offensive when people shriek about the global effects of humanity 's efforts and pollution and whatnot .
Sure , if you live in the middle of a major city and never leave , it must seem like the entire world is glass and steel , but cities and roads are specks and narrow lines spread across a vast territory that 's otherwise taken up with Nature .
And , might I add , Nature does a pretty good job of reclaiming anything we do n't spend time and energy to keep tidy .
I 've seen big construction sites and the effort it takes to put something up , and I 've seen the abandoned houses and schools and roads in areas not serviced by major highways.Human effort to push back Nature only seems impressive if you stay in those areas where we won .
If you step outside , you 'll see entire buildings consumed incidentally in the process of Nature going about its business .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People live in \_cities\_.
Cities have lights.The summary suggests that 2/3 of America is covered in "light pollution.
" No, 2/3 of the population is living concentrated in cities large enough to block out the stars, in a total area which is insignificant compared to the size of the nation.
I used to live in a (Canadian) town of one million.
When the Perseids came through my friends and I drove an hour out of town and watched them.
I hate the term "light pollution" because it suggests that light is something like smog, which you can't, you know, \_just turn off\_.
Granted, we don't, but ffs don't call it pollution, call it interference.I grew up in the country.
It always feels mildly offensive when people shriek about the global effects of humanity's efforts and pollution and whatnot.
Sure, if you live in the middle of a major city and never leave, it must seem like the entire world is glass and steel, but cities and roads are specks and narrow lines spread across a vast territory that's otherwise taken up with Nature.
And, might I add, Nature does a pretty good job of reclaiming anything we don't spend time and energy to keep tidy.
I've seen big construction sites and the effort it takes to put something up, and I've seen the abandoned houses and schools and roads in areas not serviced by major highways.Human effort to push back Nature only seems impressive if you stay in those areas where we won.
If you step outside, you'll see entire buildings consumed incidentally in the process of Nature going about its business.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267613</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244569500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I live in Amsterdam, and I'm happy if I can see more than just Venus and Jupiter.</p></div><p>You're lucky you can see that! I live in Flanders, the nothern part of Belgium. Also, I live next to a highway. I can see the moon, nothing else.<br>Sometimes, right after dusk, I can see a few planets before the lights are turned on.</p><p>The light polution is so bad, you can see Flanders from space at night.<br>Think about it, seeing half a country as a bright white spot from space.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I live in Amsterdam , and I 'm happy if I can see more than just Venus and Jupiter.You 're lucky you can see that !
I live in Flanders , the nothern part of Belgium .
Also , I live next to a highway .
I can see the moon , nothing else.Sometimes , right after dusk , I can see a few planets before the lights are turned on.The light polution is so bad , you can see Flanders from space at night.Think about it , seeing half a country as a bright white spot from space .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live in Amsterdam, and I'm happy if I can see more than just Venus and Jupiter.You're lucky you can see that!
I live in Flanders, the nothern part of Belgium.
Also, I live next to a highway.
I can see the moon, nothing else.Sometimes, right after dusk, I can see a few planets before the lights are turned on.The light polution is so bad, you can see Flanders from space at night.Think about it, seeing half a country as a bright white spot from space.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266617</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266999</id>
	<title>If light pollution is a problem where you live...</title>
	<author>smooth wombat</author>
	<datestamp>1244567340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>you could always go to <a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/dprk-dark.htm" title="globalsecurity.org">North</a> [globalsecurity.org] <a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk/images/dprk-dmsp-dark-old.jpg" title="globalsecurity.org">Korea</a> [globalsecurity.org].
<br> <br>

Granted, there are a few other problems you'd have to deal with, just not light pollution.</htmltext>
<tokenext>you could always go to North [ globalsecurity.org ] Korea [ globalsecurity.org ] .
Granted , there are a few other problems you 'd have to deal with , just not light pollution .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>you could always go to North [globalsecurity.org] Korea [globalsecurity.org].
Granted, there are a few other problems you'd have to deal with, just not light pollution.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267377</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>OctaviusIII</author>
	<datestamp>1244568540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>To address your points:
A) Generally a road-side location in the sticks isn't going to get you the Milky Way.  Generally, you need to go a ways away from civilization - including roads - if you want to see the band.<br>
B) Light pollution is, in my understanding, any photon that goes up rather than down.  It's most noticable when the city is overcast and it's bright enough to read by because of all of the light reflected back down by the clouds.  Thus, it's both your headlights and Wal-Mart, but I'd argue that you would get better returns for limiting it at the Wal-Mart than your car.<br>
C) The advancement of technology and the departure of us humans from our natural state is not a consistent good.  It is often good, yes, but not always.  One should always be mindful of what should and should not be left behind.  Turning off all the lights is not a good solution to this particular problem, but there are ways to mitigate the side-effects.</htmltext>
<tokenext>To address your points : A ) Generally a road-side location in the sticks is n't going to get you the Milky Way .
Generally , you need to go a ways away from civilization - including roads - if you want to see the band .
B ) Light pollution is , in my understanding , any photon that goes up rather than down .
It 's most noticable when the city is overcast and it 's bright enough to read by because of all of the light reflected back down by the clouds .
Thus , it 's both your headlights and Wal-Mart , but I 'd argue that you would get better returns for limiting it at the Wal-Mart than your car .
C ) The advancement of technology and the departure of us humans from our natural state is not a consistent good .
It is often good , yes , but not always .
One should always be mindful of what should and should not be left behind .
Turning off all the lights is not a good solution to this particular problem , but there are ways to mitigate the side-effects .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To address your points:
A) Generally a road-side location in the sticks isn't going to get you the Milky Way.
Generally, you need to go a ways away from civilization - including roads - if you want to see the band.
B) Light pollution is, in my understanding, any photon that goes up rather than down.
It's most noticable when the city is overcast and it's bright enough to read by because of all of the light reflected back down by the clouds.
Thus, it's both your headlights and Wal-Mart, but I'd argue that you would get better returns for limiting it at the Wal-Mart than your car.
C) The advancement of technology and the departure of us humans from our natural state is not a consistent good.
It is often good, yes, but not always.
One should always be mindful of what should and should not be left behind.
Turning off all the lights is not a good solution to this particular problem, but there are ways to mitigate the side-effects.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269189</id>
	<title>We fall into that category now.</title>
	<author>rnturn</author>
	<datestamp>1244575380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When we moved into our current house, the kids were amazed at how many stars they could see. Then the new school that was built a couple of blocks away decided that lights were needed to ensure that the school and the surrounding parking areas would be illuminated twenty-four hours a day, every single day. When I brought up the subject and suggested putting in motion-controlled sensors on the lights so they wouldn't need to be all <i>all night long</i> you'd have thought I suggested roasting the students on a spit. And this is a school district that is laying off a number of staff and faculty and shutting down programs because their budget is being hit. Morons.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When we moved into our current house , the kids were amazed at how many stars they could see .
Then the new school that was built a couple of blocks away decided that lights were needed to ensure that the school and the surrounding parking areas would be illuminated twenty-four hours a day , every single day .
When I brought up the subject and suggested putting in motion-controlled sensors on the lights so they would n't need to be all all night long you 'd have thought I suggested roasting the students on a spit .
And this is a school district that is laying off a number of staff and faculty and shutting down programs because their budget is being hit .
Morons .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When we moved into our current house, the kids were amazed at how many stars they could see.
Then the new school that was built a couple of blocks away decided that lights were needed to ensure that the school and the surrounding parking areas would be illuminated twenty-four hours a day, every single day.
When I brought up the subject and suggested putting in motion-controlled sensors on the lights so they wouldn't need to be all all night long you'd have thought I suggested roasting the students on a spit.
And this is a school district that is laying off a number of staff and faculty and shutting down programs because their budget is being hit.
Morons.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267281</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Aladrin</author>
	<datestamp>1244568180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>'Light pollution' is all man-caused light, regardless of the source.  Like noise pollution, it doesn't -actually- do any harm, it's just a clever way for someone to say they hate it.</p><p>I've never really understood this awe for nature that most people seem to have.  It's not like a miracle created them...  They were there long before you were born and will be there long after.  They look vaguely interesting, but it's nothing to spend hours and hours staring it.  They really don't move much, from our point of view.</p><p>It's a fine hobby (as most are), and astronomers have come up with some mighty interesting theories...  But to say 'everyone should see the sky!' is the same as 'everyone should have a big back yard!'  It's nice and all, but just not possible.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>'Light pollution ' is all man-caused light , regardless of the source .
Like noise pollution , it does n't -actually- do any harm , it 's just a clever way for someone to say they hate it.I 've never really understood this awe for nature that most people seem to have .
It 's not like a miracle created them... They were there long before you were born and will be there long after .
They look vaguely interesting , but it 's nothing to spend hours and hours staring it .
They really do n't move much , from our point of view.It 's a fine hobby ( as most are ) , and astronomers have come up with some mighty interesting theories... But to say 'everyone should see the sky !
' is the same as 'everyone should have a big back yard !
' It 's nice and all , but just not possible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>'Light pollution' is all man-caused light, regardless of the source.
Like noise pollution, it doesn't -actually- do any harm, it's just a clever way for someone to say they hate it.I've never really understood this awe for nature that most people seem to have.
It's not like a miracle created them...  They were there long before you were born and will be there long after.
They look vaguely interesting, but it's nothing to spend hours and hours staring it.
They really don't move much, from our point of view.It's a fine hobby (as most are), and astronomers have come up with some mighty interesting theories...  But to say 'everyone should see the sky!
' is the same as 'everyone should have a big back yard!
'  It's nice and all, but just not possible.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267147</id>
	<title>I can't help but think</title>
	<author>bflong</author>
	<datestamp>1244567760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... that maybe if everyone could see how small we really are, more would have a sense of humility then do now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... that maybe if everyone could see how small we really are , more would have a sense of humility then do now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... that maybe if everyone could see how small we really are, more would have a sense of humility then do now.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268633</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>phantomfive</author>
	<datestamp>1244573460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The worst thing about that night map, look at the dark spots.  Where are they all?  Northern Canada.  What do they have there? The aurora borealis, natural pollution.  You can't get away from it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The worst thing about that night map , look at the dark spots .
Where are they all ?
Northern Canada .
What do they have there ?
The aurora borealis , natural pollution .
You ca n't get away from it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The worst thing about that night map, look at the dark spots.
Where are they all?
Northern Canada.
What do they have there?
The aurora borealis, natural pollution.
You can't get away from it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267431</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28277675</id>
	<title>China ?</title>
	<author>Mr Europe</author>
	<datestamp>1244637720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In Shanghai you cannot even see the sun (every non-cloudy day) because of the smog! Or moon at night.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In Shanghai you can not even see the sun ( every non-cloudy day ) because of the smog !
Or moon at night .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In Shanghai you cannot even see the sun (every non-cloudy day) because of the smog!
Or moon at night.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266651</id>
	<title>Aaah... the lucky, lucky, people...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244566260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...Living far away from civilized centers, like in the center of African forests and deserts or on top of mountains and other places which have not yet been reached by the black asphalt snakes of progress.<br>How happy they are to have the Milky Way as their roof and the sound of crickets as their entertainment.<br>I am certain that they would never trade such freedom and comfort for those ghastly artificially illuminated roads, constant hum of the civilization and such trivialities as proximity to health-care and formal education.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...Living far away from civilized centers , like in the center of African forests and deserts or on top of mountains and other places which have not yet been reached by the black asphalt snakes of progress.How happy they are to have the Milky Way as their roof and the sound of crickets as their entertainment.I am certain that they would never trade such freedom and comfort for those ghastly artificially illuminated roads , constant hum of the civilization and such trivialities as proximity to health-care and formal education .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...Living far away from civilized centers, like in the center of African forests and deserts or on top of mountains and other places which have not yet been reached by the black asphalt snakes of progress.How happy they are to have the Milky Way as their roof and the sound of crickets as their entertainment.I am certain that they would never trade such freedom and comfort for those ghastly artificially illuminated roads, constant hum of the civilization and such trivialities as proximity to health-care and formal education.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267069</id>
	<title>Hrmm</title>
	<author>PeterP</author>
	<datestamp>1244567580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The glow of their web server melting down probably isn't helping...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The glow of their web server melting down probably is n't helping.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The glow of their web server melting down probably isn't helping...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267467</id>
	<title>What else have we lost</title>
	<author>argent</author>
	<datestamp>1244568900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How much of the world's population have never shot a game animal, cleaned and cooked the meat, tanned the hide for their clothes, built their own house (or cabin or hut),<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p><p>You give up many things for civilization, yet it seems worth the cost.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How much of the world 's population have never shot a game animal , cleaned and cooked the meat , tanned the hide for their clothes , built their own house ( or cabin or hut ) , ...You give up many things for civilization , yet it seems worth the cost .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How much of the world's population have never shot a game animal, cleaned and cooked the meat, tanned the hide for their clothes, built their own house (or cabin or hut), ...You give up many things for civilization, yet it seems worth the cost.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267387</id>
	<title>I can still see it . . .</title>
	<author>ensiferius</author>
	<datestamp>1244568600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I live in upstate New York so I can still see it.<br>Of course I can't get cable television where I live, and my closest neighbor is 1/4 of a mile away.<br>Seeing the stars and breathing fresh air is why I live where I do.<br>You know get back to the land and set my soul free, and all that.<br>Oh, and raising my own food and stock-piling weapons for the coming Zombie Apocalypse . . . but I digress.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I live in upstate New York so I can still see it.Of course I ca n't get cable television where I live , and my closest neighbor is 1/4 of a mile away.Seeing the stars and breathing fresh air is why I live where I do.You know get back to the land and set my soul free , and all that.Oh , and raising my own food and stock-piling weapons for the coming Zombie Apocalypse .
. .
but I digress .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live in upstate New York so I can still see it.Of course I can't get cable television where I live, and my closest neighbor is 1/4 of a mile away.Seeing the stars and breathing fresh air is why I live where I do.You know get back to the land and set my soul free, and all that.Oh, and raising my own food and stock-piling weapons for the coming Zombie Apocalypse .
. .
but I digress.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266765</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>oldspewey</author>
	<datestamp>1244566620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Amsterdam is blessed with sufficient nocturnal distractions that not being able to see the night sky is no great hardship.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Amsterdam is blessed with sufficient nocturnal distractions that not being able to see the night sky is no great hardship .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Amsterdam is blessed with sufficient nocturnal distractions that not being able to see the night sky is no great hardship.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266617</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268577</id>
	<title>Re:You don't even know you're missing it.</title>
	<author>sitarah</author>
	<datestamp>1244573220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This happened to me in Yosemite, too, minus the loss of bowel control. When I was perhaps 14, my family got stuck driving out of the park in the dark on a moonless night. My dad stopped, and I got out of the car for some reason. Until that day, I had thought that the movie sets with a sky saturated with stars was fake and purposely overexaggerated. I lived in a semi-rural community with a hunting range, and I thought I knew the sky. I had seen the moon through a telescope. I knew constellations. That day, I discovered I was wrong, and it is honestly in the top 20 memories on my entire life.
<br> <br>
I've driven out to the Vegas desert, back to Yosemite, and driven the cliffs of Big Sur at night to try to see the sky like I did that day and show it to my husband, too. The moon and other light pollution has thwarted me. Next week, I got to the Oregon coast, Mt Hood, and Mt St Helens, and I'm still hoping to get that view again.
memories on my entire life.
<br> <br>
In my quest for perfect darkness, I've learned that the Milky Way was once not only bright enough that it could be identified with the naked eye, but that it cast a shadow on the ground. There are few places you can go to have that experience. You'd have to go as far as Peru now, deep into the mountains. <a href="http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/08/20/070820fa\_fact\_owen" title="newyorker.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/08/20/070820fa\_fact\_owen</a> [newyorker.com] has a long article touching upon light pollution and its affects on the night sky.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This happened to me in Yosemite , too , minus the loss of bowel control .
When I was perhaps 14 , my family got stuck driving out of the park in the dark on a moonless night .
My dad stopped , and I got out of the car for some reason .
Until that day , I had thought that the movie sets with a sky saturated with stars was fake and purposely overexaggerated .
I lived in a semi-rural community with a hunting range , and I thought I knew the sky .
I had seen the moon through a telescope .
I knew constellations .
That day , I discovered I was wrong , and it is honestly in the top 20 memories on my entire life .
I 've driven out to the Vegas desert , back to Yosemite , and driven the cliffs of Big Sur at night to try to see the sky like I did that day and show it to my husband , too .
The moon and other light pollution has thwarted me .
Next week , I got to the Oregon coast , Mt Hood , and Mt St Helens , and I 'm still hoping to get that view again .
memories on my entire life .
In my quest for perfect darkness , I 've learned that the Milky Way was once not only bright enough that it could be identified with the naked eye , but that it cast a shadow on the ground .
There are few places you can go to have that experience .
You 'd have to go as far as Peru now , deep into the mountains .
http : //www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/08/20/070820fa \ _fact \ _owen [ newyorker.com ] has a long article touching upon light pollution and its affects on the night sky .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This happened to me in Yosemite, too, minus the loss of bowel control.
When I was perhaps 14, my family got stuck driving out of the park in the dark on a moonless night.
My dad stopped, and I got out of the car for some reason.
Until that day, I had thought that the movie sets with a sky saturated with stars was fake and purposely overexaggerated.
I lived in a semi-rural community with a hunting range, and I thought I knew the sky.
I had seen the moon through a telescope.
I knew constellations.
That day, I discovered I was wrong, and it is honestly in the top 20 memories on my entire life.
I've driven out to the Vegas desert, back to Yosemite, and driven the cliffs of Big Sur at night to try to see the sky like I did that day and show it to my husband, too.
The moon and other light pollution has thwarted me.
Next week, I got to the Oregon coast, Mt Hood, and Mt St Helens, and I'm still hoping to get that view again.
memories on my entire life.
In my quest for perfect darkness, I've learned that the Milky Way was once not only bright enough that it could be identified with the naked eye, but that it cast a shadow on the ground.
There are few places you can go to have that experience.
You'd have to go as far as Peru now, deep into the mountains.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/08/20/070820fa\_fact\_owen [newyorker.com] has a long article touching upon light pollution and its affects on the night sky.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266497</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266751</id>
	<title>Re:Aren't we in the milkyway?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244566560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No we're not, we're in the Milky Way Galaxy, which is named after it. The astronomical phenomenon knows as the Milky Way is actually part of our galaxy's spiral arms.</p><p>If you were wondering, our solar system is located in the relatively empty space between spiral arms.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No we 're not , we 're in the Milky Way Galaxy , which is named after it .
The astronomical phenomenon knows as the Milky Way is actually part of our galaxy 's spiral arms.If you were wondering , our solar system is located in the relatively empty space between spiral arms .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No we're not, we're in the Milky Way Galaxy, which is named after it.
The astronomical phenomenon knows as the Milky Way is actually part of our galaxy's spiral arms.If you were wondering, our solar system is located in the relatively empty space between spiral arms.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266483</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267477</id>
	<title>Re:Quit calling it "light pollution"</title>
	<author>DdJ</author>
	<datestamp>1244568960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There are no health hazards to nighttime light.</p></div><p>This is false.  There are, especially if you don't limit yourself to human beings (ie. you consider the whole ecosystem).</p><p>The article linked above may not <i>mention</i> them at all, and you are probably right that <i>most</i> of the people complaining about this are only angry about aesthetics, but there's a lot of biological activity in a lot of species that's impacted by light, and to say flat out that there are <i>no</i> health hazards to nighttime light, well, that's somewhat analogous to saying there's no such thing as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal\_pollution" title="wikipedia.org">thermal pollution</a> [wikipedia.org] either.  I mean, there's no chemicals in warm water that aren't in cold water, and I can drink warm water just as well as cold water, so what's the problem?</p><p>(Mind you, I'm <i>not</i> saying we should shut off all the lights.  I <i>am</i> saying it's a good idea to make sure there are vast areas where the natural light cycle is preserved, and that it's another factor we should take into account as we continue to recalculate the cost/benefit ratios involved in all our decisions.)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are no health hazards to nighttime light.This is false .
There are , especially if you do n't limit yourself to human beings ( ie .
you consider the whole ecosystem ) .The article linked above may not mention them at all , and you are probably right that most of the people complaining about this are only angry about aesthetics , but there 's a lot of biological activity in a lot of species that 's impacted by light , and to say flat out that there are no health hazards to nighttime light , well , that 's somewhat analogous to saying there 's no such thing as thermal pollution [ wikipedia.org ] either .
I mean , there 's no chemicals in warm water that are n't in cold water , and I can drink warm water just as well as cold water , so what 's the problem ?
( Mind you , I 'm not saying we should shut off all the lights .
I am saying it 's a good idea to make sure there are vast areas where the natural light cycle is preserved , and that it 's another factor we should take into account as we continue to recalculate the cost/benefit ratios involved in all our decisions .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are no health hazards to nighttime light.This is false.
There are, especially if you don't limit yourself to human beings (ie.
you consider the whole ecosystem).The article linked above may not mention them at all, and you are probably right that most of the people complaining about this are only angry about aesthetics, but there's a lot of biological activity in a lot of species that's impacted by light, and to say flat out that there are no health hazards to nighttime light, well, that's somewhat analogous to saying there's no such thing as thermal pollution [wikipedia.org] either.
I mean, there's no chemicals in warm water that aren't in cold water, and I can drink warm water just as well as cold water, so what's the problem?
(Mind you, I'm not saying we should shut off all the lights.
I am saying it's a good idea to make sure there are vast areas where the natural light cycle is preserved, and that it's another factor we should take into account as we continue to recalculate the cost/benefit ratios involved in all our decisions.
)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267099</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266991</id>
	<title>cost of it all</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244567340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Imagine how much energy could be saved, and how much of this could be remediated with some simple changes. I generally like my government small and out of my business but in this case, it would be fairly easy.</p><p>- stores must turn off all lights, including parking lot lights within 30 minutes of the time the last employee leaves. (I can't count the number of times I've driven past a mall at midnight with every store light on, all the outside signage lit and every light on the parking lot on.<br>- no neon, internal or spotlights on outdoor signage, if you really want it to be seen at night, make it reflective.<br>- limit the lumens from all vehicle headlamps, limit lights only to headlight, foglight, brakelights and turn signals.<br>- no external floodlights on houses unless they are on a motion sensor that is set to go off with activity no further than 25 ft away and must go out with a delay of no more than 30 seconds after motion stops.<br>- occupants of office building must turn off all lights when the business closes for the day.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Imagine how much energy could be saved , and how much of this could be remediated with some simple changes .
I generally like my government small and out of my business but in this case , it would be fairly easy.- stores must turn off all lights , including parking lot lights within 30 minutes of the time the last employee leaves .
( I ca n't count the number of times I 've driven past a mall at midnight with every store light on , all the outside signage lit and every light on the parking lot on.- no neon , internal or spotlights on outdoor signage , if you really want it to be seen at night , make it reflective.- limit the lumens from all vehicle headlamps , limit lights only to headlight , foglight , brakelights and turn signals.- no external floodlights on houses unless they are on a motion sensor that is set to go off with activity no further than 25 ft away and must go out with a delay of no more than 30 seconds after motion stops.- occupants of office building must turn off all lights when the business closes for the day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Imagine how much energy could be saved, and how much of this could be remediated with some simple changes.
I generally like my government small and out of my business but in this case, it would be fairly easy.- stores must turn off all lights, including parking lot lights within 30 minutes of the time the last employee leaves.
(I can't count the number of times I've driven past a mall at midnight with every store light on, all the outside signage lit and every light on the parking lot on.- no neon, internal or spotlights on outdoor signage, if you really want it to be seen at night, make it reflective.- limit the lumens from all vehicle headlamps, limit lights only to headlight, foglight, brakelights and turn signals.- no external floodlights on houses unless they are on a motion sensor that is set to go off with activity no further than 25 ft away and must go out with a delay of no more than 30 seconds after motion stops.- occupants of office building must turn off all lights when the business closes for the day.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28272053</id>
	<title>Re:Well... I could.</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1244544000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here in the U.S. I'm tempted to tell Homeland Security that if we don't invest in stopping light pollution, the Martian Terrorists will use it as a homing beacon for their dirty bombs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here in the U.S. I 'm tempted to tell Homeland Security that if we do n't invest in stopping light pollution , the Martian Terrorists will use it as a homing beacon for their dirty bombs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here in the U.S. I'm tempted to tell Homeland Security that if we don't invest in stopping light pollution, the Martian Terrorists will use it as a homing beacon for their dirty bombs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267005</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269629</id>
	<title>Re:Unfortunate consequences of life</title>
	<author>Kabuthunk</author>
	<datestamp>1244576760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's one minor thing you seem to have skipped over however.</p><p>We're capable of stopping our lights from shining upwards.  Y'know, where those stars are.  With properly directed yard lighting and shades over the street lights, one can significantly reduce, if not almost eliminate, the main direct sources of upward light.  Naturally, reflected light is another story, but that's in orders of magnitude less light than directly from a street lamp bulb.</p><p>However, doing so takes time, effort, and/or resources... not a single one of which the common person will expend without immediate personal benifits.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's one minor thing you seem to have skipped over however.We 're capable of stopping our lights from shining upwards .
Y'know , where those stars are .
With properly directed yard lighting and shades over the street lights , one can significantly reduce , if not almost eliminate , the main direct sources of upward light .
Naturally , reflected light is another story , but that 's in orders of magnitude less light than directly from a street lamp bulb.However , doing so takes time , effort , and/or resources... not a single one of which the common person will expend without immediate personal benifits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's one minor thing you seem to have skipped over however.We're capable of stopping our lights from shining upwards.
Y'know, where those stars are.
With properly directed yard lighting and shades over the street lights, one can significantly reduce, if not almost eliminate, the main direct sources of upward light.
Naturally, reflected light is another story, but that's in orders of magnitude less light than directly from a street lamp bulb.However, doing so takes time, effort, and/or resources... not a single one of which the common person will expend without immediate personal benifits.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268017</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270653</id>
	<title>Dark sky preserve</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244580900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just ask to get your own preserve...<br>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark\_Sky\_preserve#cite\_note-0</p><p>Then they will pass a bill to force people and company to use receded bulb Flat lens 100\% downward...!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just ask to get your own preserve...http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark \ _Sky \ _preserve # cite \ _note-0Then they will pass a bill to force people and company to use receded bulb Flat lens 100 \ % downward... !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just ask to get your own preserve...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark\_Sky\_preserve#cite\_note-0Then they will pass a bill to force people and company to use receded bulb Flat lens 100\% downward...!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28286621</id>
	<title>Obligatory Seattle Post</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244634420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd be able to see the stars if it wasn't raining you insensitive clod!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd be able to see the stars if it was n't raining you insensitive clod !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd be able to see the stars if it wasn't raining you insensitive clod!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28281599</id>
	<title>Have Paint Balls, Will Travel</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244656740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Street light glare, blat blat. No problemo.
</p><p>Neighbor's porch light keeping you up? Blat blat blat - done.
</p><p>Photonic Symbols of Fear Blatted, Ltd.
</p><p>Our services are free to night-lovers everywhere!
</p><p>Call 1-800-PSF-BLAT
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Street light glare , blat blat .
No problemo .
Neighbor 's porch light keeping you up ?
Blat blat blat - done .
Photonic Symbols of Fear Blatted , Ltd . Our services are free to night-lovers everywhere !
Call 1-800-PSF-BLAT</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Street light glare, blat blat.
No problemo.
Neighbor's porch light keeping you up?
Blat blat blat - done.
Photonic Symbols of Fear Blatted, Ltd.
Our services are free to night-lovers everywhere!
Call 1-800-PSF-BLAT
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268261</id>
	<title>Re:If light pollution is a problem where you live.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244572080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hm.</p><p>In the first picture there seems to be at least one bright North Korean city, and in the second there is not.</p><p>Also in the second parts of China look pretty dark, and in the first those same parts have bright spots.</p><p>Can anyone explain this?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hm.In the first picture there seems to be at least one bright North Korean city , and in the second there is not.Also in the second parts of China look pretty dark , and in the first those same parts have bright spots.Can anyone explain this ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hm.In the first picture there seems to be at least one bright North Korean city, and in the second there is not.Also in the second parts of China look pretty dark, and in the first those same parts have bright spots.Can anyone explain this?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266999</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267099</id>
	<title>Quit calling it "light pollution"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244567640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's one of the silliest terms I've ever heard. Comparing light at night to smog or dirty water is disingenuous. There are no health hazards to nighttime light. Its simply a marketing term for people that are angry that they have to travel a little bit to get a good view of the stars. Well, too bad. That's the price you pay for civilization. Cities and suburbs are lighted at night for good reasons. Properly used, night lighting <a href="http://db.c2admin.org/doc-pdf/Welsh\_StreetLight\_review.pdf" title="c2admin.org" rel="nofollow">deters crime</a> [c2admin.org], <a href="http://www.saferoutesinfo.org/guide/engineering/street\_lighting.cfm" title="saferoutesinfo.org" rel="nofollow">improves safety</a> [saferoutesinfo.org], and allows us to use more of the day for productive purposes. Lighting allowed us to do work at night that we formerly couldn't do.</p><p>I don't know about you, but I'll take all of those advantages over living in the dark just so I can get an unobstructed view of the stars. And I say that as someone that used to enjoy amateur astronomy quite a bit (getting a new telescope will have to wait until the toddler gets older).</p><p>When I was using a telescope, I simply accepted that I was going to have to drive 20 minutes if I wanted a fantastic view of the stars... I even had my favorite spots picked out. Now if you choose to live in a place like New York City, then use your head... you're going to have to accept that you are choosing to live in a heavily lighted environment. It's a tradeoff. Want beautiful, naked-eye views of the night sky? Move to Montana or some remote desert town. Want better economic opportunities and the benefits of a city? Plan your sky-viewing trips out of the city, then.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's one of the silliest terms I 've ever heard .
Comparing light at night to smog or dirty water is disingenuous .
There are no health hazards to nighttime light .
Its simply a marketing term for people that are angry that they have to travel a little bit to get a good view of the stars .
Well , too bad .
That 's the price you pay for civilization .
Cities and suburbs are lighted at night for good reasons .
Properly used , night lighting deters crime [ c2admin.org ] , improves safety [ saferoutesinfo.org ] , and allows us to use more of the day for productive purposes .
Lighting allowed us to do work at night that we formerly could n't do.I do n't know about you , but I 'll take all of those advantages over living in the dark just so I can get an unobstructed view of the stars .
And I say that as someone that used to enjoy amateur astronomy quite a bit ( getting a new telescope will have to wait until the toddler gets older ) .When I was using a telescope , I simply accepted that I was going to have to drive 20 minutes if I wanted a fantastic view of the stars... I even had my favorite spots picked out .
Now if you choose to live in a place like New York City , then use your head... you 're going to have to accept that you are choosing to live in a heavily lighted environment .
It 's a tradeoff .
Want beautiful , naked-eye views of the night sky ?
Move to Montana or some remote desert town .
Want better economic opportunities and the benefits of a city ?
Plan your sky-viewing trips out of the city , then .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's one of the silliest terms I've ever heard.
Comparing light at night to smog or dirty water is disingenuous.
There are no health hazards to nighttime light.
Its simply a marketing term for people that are angry that they have to travel a little bit to get a good view of the stars.
Well, too bad.
That's the price you pay for civilization.
Cities and suburbs are lighted at night for good reasons.
Properly used, night lighting deters crime [c2admin.org], improves safety [saferoutesinfo.org], and allows us to use more of the day for productive purposes.
Lighting allowed us to do work at night that we formerly couldn't do.I don't know about you, but I'll take all of those advantages over living in the dark just so I can get an unobstructed view of the stars.
And I say that as someone that used to enjoy amateur astronomy quite a bit (getting a new telescope will have to wait until the toddler gets older).When I was using a telescope, I simply accepted that I was going to have to drive 20 minutes if I wanted a fantastic view of the stars... I even had my favorite spots picked out.
Now if you choose to live in a place like New York City, then use your head... you're going to have to accept that you are choosing to live in a heavily lighted environment.
It's a tradeoff.
Want beautiful, naked-eye views of the night sky?
Move to Montana or some remote desert town.
Want better economic opportunities and the benefits of a city?
Plan your sky-viewing trips out of the city, then.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266563</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268219</id>
	<title>more than projected</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244571900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>actually 50\% can't see the milky way... because they are on the wrong side of the earth every night.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>actually 50 \ % ca n't see the milky way... because they are on the wrong side of the earth every night .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>actually 50\% can't see the milky way... because they are on the wrong side of the earth every night.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269929</id>
	<title>It's a damn shame</title>
	<author>yodleboy</author>
	<datestamp>1244578140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's a damn shame more people can't see the milky way, it's really an awesome sight.  I went most of my life without seeing it in anything but photos.  Took an excursion to the <a href="http://mcdonaldobservatory.org/" title="mcdonaldobservatory.org" rel="nofollow">McDonald observatory</a> [mcdonaldobservatory.org] and my first view of it really took my breath away.  You KNOW there are a lot of stars, you KNOW space is big, really big, but it was almost overwhelming to lay back in the grass and see so much of the universe above me.  If you've never seen it, you owe it to yourself to get a peek before you die.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's a damn shame more people ca n't see the milky way , it 's really an awesome sight .
I went most of my life without seeing it in anything but photos .
Took an excursion to the McDonald observatory [ mcdonaldobservatory.org ] and my first view of it really took my breath away .
You KNOW there are a lot of stars , you KNOW space is big , really big , but it was almost overwhelming to lay back in the grass and see so much of the universe above me .
If you 've never seen it , you owe it to yourself to get a peek before you die .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's a damn shame more people can't see the milky way, it's really an awesome sight.
I went most of my life without seeing it in anything but photos.
Took an excursion to the McDonald observatory [mcdonaldobservatory.org] and my first view of it really took my breath away.
You KNOW there are a lot of stars, you KNOW space is big, really big, but it was almost overwhelming to lay back in the grass and see so much of the universe above me.
If you've never seen it, you owe it to yourself to get a peek before you die.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267641</id>
	<title>Re:You don't even know you're missing it.</title>
	<author>ryanvm</author>
	<datestamp>1244569620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>By the way, Derek, we are never taking you hiking again.</htmltext>
<tokenext>By the way , Derek , we are never taking you hiking again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>By the way, Derek, we are never taking you hiking again.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266497</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28275609</id>
	<title>I live in the country.  And...</title>
	<author>aqk</author>
	<datestamp>1244571480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I live right on the 45th parallel, between Canada on the USA. (the "official" border is a few hundred feet south of here).<br>Yes, it is dark at night. Nearest "big" lights are in Valleyfield, Quebec (north) and Malone, NY (south).</p><p>I'd love to go out more at night and observe, but the damn mosquitoes (in summer) and cold (in winter) make it rather uncomfortable.<br>But I do easily recognize Polaris (45 deg North), the Pleaides. and others, and of course, the dark band of the milky way.<br>Sadly, my kids were not impressed and have moved to the big city.<br>Ah well..  they'll be back someday.<br>I shall keep the telescope ready.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I live right on the 45th parallel , between Canada on the USA .
( the " official " border is a few hundred feet south of here ) .Yes , it is dark at night .
Nearest " big " lights are in Valleyfield , Quebec ( north ) and Malone , NY ( south ) .I 'd love to go out more at night and observe , but the damn mosquitoes ( in summer ) and cold ( in winter ) make it rather uncomfortable.But I do easily recognize Polaris ( 45 deg North ) , the Pleaides .
and others , and of course , the dark band of the milky way.Sadly , my kids were not impressed and have moved to the big city.Ah well.. they 'll be back someday.I shall keep the telescope ready .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live right on the 45th parallel, between Canada on the USA.
(the "official" border is a few hundred feet south of here).Yes, it is dark at night.
Nearest "big" lights are in Valleyfield, Quebec (north) and Malone, NY (south).I'd love to go out more at night and observe, but the damn mosquitoes (in summer) and cold (in winter) make it rather uncomfortable.But I do easily recognize Polaris (45 deg North), the Pleaides.
and others, and of course, the dark band of the milky way.Sadly, my kids were not impressed and have moved to the big city.Ah well..  they'll be back someday.I shall keep the telescope ready.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269601</id>
	<title>Re:Unfortunate consequences of life</title>
	<author>Minwee</author>
	<datestamp>1244576640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How about if you just stopped burning big bonfires as if they were your only source of light?  Surely at least one of the 500,000 residents of your hypothetical community must have had the idea of applying technology from this millennium to the problem of lighting.  Instead of throwing a few thousand more logs on the fire, try installing low pressure sodium streetlights designed to throw light \_down\_ towards the streets where you think you need it.
<p>
Yes, it's sad, but even simple ideas like this are often ignored by people who \_just can't be bothered\_ and who would rather waste electricity, destroy the night sky, and then blather on about how their carelessness is somehow "necessary" to better the human condition.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about if you just stopped burning big bonfires as if they were your only source of light ?
Surely at least one of the 500,000 residents of your hypothetical community must have had the idea of applying technology from this millennium to the problem of lighting .
Instead of throwing a few thousand more logs on the fire , try installing low pressure sodium streetlights designed to throw light \ _down \ _ towards the streets where you think you need it .
Yes , it 's sad , but even simple ideas like this are often ignored by people who \ _just ca n't be bothered \ _ and who would rather waste electricity , destroy the night sky , and then blather on about how their carelessness is somehow " necessary " to better the human condition .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about if you just stopped burning big bonfires as if they were your only source of light?
Surely at least one of the 500,000 residents of your hypothetical community must have had the idea of applying technology from this millennium to the problem of lighting.
Instead of throwing a few thousand more logs on the fire, try installing low pressure sodium streetlights designed to throw light \_down\_ towards the streets where you think you need it.
Yes, it's sad, but even simple ideas like this are often ignored by people who \_just can't be bothered\_ and who would rather waste electricity, destroy the night sky, and then blather on about how their carelessness is somehow "necessary" to better the human condition.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268017</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267199</id>
	<title>Re:You have to get away ...</title>
	<author>tlhIngan</author>
	<datestamp>1244567940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hrm. I remember about 20 years ago I could see the night sky with stars. These days I can't, and I'm still in the same general area.</p><p>Of course, the first time in years I started seeing the stars was flying overhead of the area at around 3000' or so. Night flight training can be wonderful at times. Then bloody annoying because the city lights drown out the airport beacon, and you have to hope that the darker patch on the ground is the airport. Easy with ARCAL systems since clicking the mic will turn on the lights (and the change in illumination is easy to detect). Not so easy with towered fields which have the lights on, but which are drowned out by the nearby city lights (and only a few airports I go to have the nice sequenced approach lights).</p><p>Sometimes my best hope is catching the runway lights. And this is said as I'm familiar with the area so I knew where I was, and where to look. It didn't help that their beacon changed to a LED one. I thought I was going nuts until my instructor also metnioned he had difficulty finding that airport. At least my home airport (not too far away) is easier to spot from the air.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hrm .
I remember about 20 years ago I could see the night sky with stars .
These days I ca n't , and I 'm still in the same general area.Of course , the first time in years I started seeing the stars was flying overhead of the area at around 3000 ' or so .
Night flight training can be wonderful at times .
Then bloody annoying because the city lights drown out the airport beacon , and you have to hope that the darker patch on the ground is the airport .
Easy with ARCAL systems since clicking the mic will turn on the lights ( and the change in illumination is easy to detect ) .
Not so easy with towered fields which have the lights on , but which are drowned out by the nearby city lights ( and only a few airports I go to have the nice sequenced approach lights ) .Sometimes my best hope is catching the runway lights .
And this is said as I 'm familiar with the area so I knew where I was , and where to look .
It did n't help that their beacon changed to a LED one .
I thought I was going nuts until my instructor also metnioned he had difficulty finding that airport .
At least my home airport ( not too far away ) is easier to spot from the air .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hrm.
I remember about 20 years ago I could see the night sky with stars.
These days I can't, and I'm still in the same general area.Of course, the first time in years I started seeing the stars was flying overhead of the area at around 3000' or so.
Night flight training can be wonderful at times.
Then bloody annoying because the city lights drown out the airport beacon, and you have to hope that the darker patch on the ground is the airport.
Easy with ARCAL systems since clicking the mic will turn on the lights (and the change in illumination is easy to detect).
Not so easy with towered fields which have the lights on, but which are drowned out by the nearby city lights (and only a few airports I go to have the nice sequenced approach lights).Sometimes my best hope is catching the runway lights.
And this is said as I'm familiar with the area so I knew where I was, and where to look.
It didn't help that their beacon changed to a LED one.
I thought I was going nuts until my instructor also metnioned he had difficulty finding that airport.
At least my home airport (not too far away) is easier to spot from the air.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266563</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28280695</id>
	<title>Re:Light pollution or not...</title>
	<author>Convector</author>
	<datestamp>1244653260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In college, my friends and I would always have to go get Milky Way bars after Astronomy labs.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In college , my friends and I would always have to go get Milky Way bars after Astronomy labs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In college, my friends and I would always have to go get Milky Way bars after Astronomy labs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28274047</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244557980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"What purpose does the arctic wildlife reserve serve"</p><p>For goodness sake dont encourage them!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" What purpose does the arctic wildlife reserve serve " For goodness sake dont encourage them !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"What purpose does the arctic wildlife reserve serve"For goodness sake dont encourage them!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267883</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270007</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244578440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>B) When is light 'pollution', and are we okay with (what I assume is) a situational definition of that word?  Is light 'pollution' when it comes out of your headlights?  Or only when Wal-Mart uses it to light their parking lot?  Is there some measurable standard of 'enough' light, and the excess is 'pollution'?  Or is it only 'pollution' when you want it to be dark?  I'd honestly like to know...</p></div><p>To be as specific as i think you want, it becomes pollution when its pointed towards the sky. Uplighting on buildings is a perfect example; less than 1/3 of the lights coverage is the building, the rest is streaming straight up and is considered pollution. Any light which does not attempt to direct the light towards its effective location (usually the street or building) is both wasting energy and contributing to a brighter sky.</p><p>It requires only relatively small changes to fix (changing lamp heads to aim downwards instead of radiating), doesn't require reducing light in areas where security/safety is important and it improves efficiency statistics - seems like an ideal candidate for environmental work that might actually get carried out.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>B ) When is light 'pollution ' , and are we okay with ( what I assume is ) a situational definition of that word ?
Is light 'pollution ' when it comes out of your headlights ?
Or only when Wal-Mart uses it to light their parking lot ?
Is there some measurable standard of 'enough ' light , and the excess is 'pollution ' ?
Or is it only 'pollution ' when you want it to be dark ?
I 'd honestly like to know...To be as specific as i think you want , it becomes pollution when its pointed towards the sky .
Uplighting on buildings is a perfect example ; less than 1/3 of the lights coverage is the building , the rest is streaming straight up and is considered pollution .
Any light which does not attempt to direct the light towards its effective location ( usually the street or building ) is both wasting energy and contributing to a brighter sky.It requires only relatively small changes to fix ( changing lamp heads to aim downwards instead of radiating ) , does n't require reducing light in areas where security/safety is important and it improves efficiency statistics - seems like an ideal candidate for environmental work that might actually get carried out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>B) When is light 'pollution', and are we okay with (what I assume is) a situational definition of that word?
Is light 'pollution' when it comes out of your headlights?
Or only when Wal-Mart uses it to light their parking lot?
Is there some measurable standard of 'enough' light, and the excess is 'pollution'?
Or is it only 'pollution' when you want it to be dark?
I'd honestly like to know...To be as specific as i think you want, it becomes pollution when its pointed towards the sky.
Uplighting on buildings is a perfect example; less than 1/3 of the lights coverage is the building, the rest is streaming straight up and is considered pollution.
Any light which does not attempt to direct the light towards its effective location (usually the street or building) is both wasting energy and contributing to a brighter sky.It requires only relatively small changes to fix (changing lamp heads to aim downwards instead of radiating), doesn't require reducing light in areas where security/safety is important and it improves efficiency statistics - seems like an ideal candidate for environmental work that might actually get carried out.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266809</id>
	<title>UNESCO aims to protect a dark night sky</title>
	<author>torrija</author>
	<datestamp>1244566740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>The UNESCO <a href="http://www.unesco.org/" title="unesco.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.unesco.org/</a> [unesco.org] has had for some time initiatives like <a href="http://www.astronomicalheritage.org/" title="astronomicalheritage.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.astronomicalheritage.org/</a> [astronomicalheritage.org] to promote and/or protect dark night skies.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The UNESCO http : //www.unesco.org/ [ unesco.org ] has had for some time initiatives like http : //www.astronomicalheritage.org/ [ astronomicalheritage.org ] to promote and/or protect dark night skies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The UNESCO http://www.unesco.org/ [unesco.org] has had for some time initiatives like http://www.astronomicalheritage.org/ [astronomicalheritage.org] to promote and/or protect dark night skies.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28276749</id>
	<title>Overhype</title>
	<author>wye43</author>
	<datestamp>1244626860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Light pollution? We LIKE light, we CHOOSE to light up things around us. Looking once at the sky and noticing the milky way may seem amazing first few times, but seeing it every day will not improve your life in any way at all - unless this is your profession(astronomy). It just gets boring. Light around you HELPS.<br>
<br>
Do you realize how much natural "light pollution" happens by just moving to a location 5 degrees latitude higher?<br>
<br>
There is a very significant percent of human population living on locations over 50 degrees latitude, where the night sky during the summer is close to non existent - and no, they don't get cancer or sick because of it, you just get used to it.<br>
<br>
Sorry guys, but this ton of BS just got me angry.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Light pollution ?
We LIKE light , we CHOOSE to light up things around us .
Looking once at the sky and noticing the milky way may seem amazing first few times , but seeing it every day will not improve your life in any way at all - unless this is your profession ( astronomy ) .
It just gets boring .
Light around you HELPS .
Do you realize how much natural " light pollution " happens by just moving to a location 5 degrees latitude higher ?
There is a very significant percent of human population living on locations over 50 degrees latitude , where the night sky during the summer is close to non existent - and no , they do n't get cancer or sick because of it , you just get used to it .
Sorry guys , but this ton of BS just got me angry .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Light pollution?
We LIKE light, we CHOOSE to light up things around us.
Looking once at the sky and noticing the milky way may seem amazing first few times, but seeing it every day will not improve your life in any way at all - unless this is your profession(astronomy).
It just gets boring.
Light around you HELPS.
Do you realize how much natural "light pollution" happens by just moving to a location 5 degrees latitude higher?
There is a very significant percent of human population living on locations over 50 degrees latitude, where the night sky during the summer is close to non existent - and no, they don't get cancer or sick because of it, you just get used to it.
Sorry guys, but this ton of BS just got me angry.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267651</id>
	<title>yes, but</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244569680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1/5 of the World's Population also has adequate/safe food, transportation, and clean/abundant water.</p><p>Not a coincidence in this case, although the cities could try to switch to alternative fuels if they wanted to. But that pollution is ultimately the price we have paid for the way we live.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1/5 of the World 's Population also has adequate/safe food , transportation , and clean/abundant water.Not a coincidence in this case , although the cities could try to switch to alternative fuels if they wanted to .
But that pollution is ultimately the price we have paid for the way we live .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1/5 of the World's Population also has adequate/safe food, transportation, and clean/abundant water.Not a coincidence in this case, although the cities could try to switch to alternative fuels if they wanted to.
But that pollution is ultimately the price we have paid for the way we live.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28272681</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>amRadioHed</author>
	<datestamp>1244547780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They're called roads, and the pedestrians were there first.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They 're called roads , and the pedestrians were there first .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They're called roads, and the pedestrians were there first.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267537</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267359</id>
	<title>Milkway candy bar</title>
	<author>DanCentury</author>
	<datestamp>1244568480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Coincidentally, only 1/5 of the world can purchase a Milkway candy bar. Haw haw haw!</p><p>I live in New Jersey (I know "boo!") and my Dobson is all but worthless. The Jersey night sky is like pink mud. I think I'll put my Dobson to better use and fill it with giant Pringles.</p><p>Until Google stops chopping the top off of mountains in Kentucky to get coal to fuel the interweb, the sky will continue to get more polluted. Seriously, WTF am I talking about.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Coincidentally , only 1/5 of the world can purchase a Milkway candy bar .
Haw haw haw ! I live in New Jersey ( I know " boo !
" ) and my Dobson is all but worthless .
The Jersey night sky is like pink mud .
I think I 'll put my Dobson to better use and fill it with giant Pringles.Until Google stops chopping the top off of mountains in Kentucky to get coal to fuel the interweb , the sky will continue to get more polluted .
Seriously , WTF am I talking about .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Coincidentally, only 1/5 of the world can purchase a Milkway candy bar.
Haw haw haw!I live in New Jersey (I know "boo!
") and my Dobson is all but worthless.
The Jersey night sky is like pink mud.
I think I'll put my Dobson to better use and fill it with giant Pringles.Until Google stops chopping the top off of mountains in Kentucky to get coal to fuel the interweb, the sky will continue to get more polluted.
Seriously, WTF am I talking about.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28277435</id>
	<title>Roofs?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244634780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I stopped seeing the Milky Way at night after we stopped living in a ditch and moved into a house.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I stopped seeing the Milky Way at night after we stopped living in a ditch and moved into a house .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I stopped seeing the Milky Way at night after we stopped living in a ditch and moved into a house.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28271141</id>
	<title>Re:Well... I could.</title>
	<author>amRadioHed</author>
	<datestamp>1244539860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The governments should just make dark skies a part of their environmental platform. Light pollution is wasted energy. If the light goes where it's needed people will use less energy and you get darker skies for free.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The governments should just make dark skies a part of their environmental platform .
Light pollution is wasted energy .
If the light goes where it 's needed people will use less energy and you get darker skies for free .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The governments should just make dark skies a part of their environmental platform.
Light pollution is wasted energy.
If the light goes where it's needed people will use less energy and you get darker skies for free.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267005</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266863</id>
	<title>Re:Milky Way, hell...</title>
	<author>cream wobbly</author>
	<datestamp>1244566920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Living in Tucson, where the International Dark-Sky Association ("The Light Pollution Authority") is (was?) based, I'm lucky if I can see cyclists and pedestrians after sunset.</p><p>Yes I can see the bloody Milky Way, but the Milky Way isn't likely to cross an unlit street in front of you, is it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Living in Tucson , where the International Dark-Sky Association ( " The Light Pollution Authority " ) is ( was ?
) based , I 'm lucky if I can see cyclists and pedestrians after sunset.Yes I can see the bloody Milky Way , but the Milky Way is n't likely to cross an unlit street in front of you , is it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Living in Tucson, where the International Dark-Sky Association ("The Light Pollution Authority") is (was?
) based, I'm lucky if I can see cyclists and pedestrians after sunset.Yes I can see the bloody Milky Way, but the Milky Way isn't likely to cross an unlit street in front of you, is it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266475</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268615</id>
	<title>I did not what I was missing</title>
	<author>ddraculdiablo</author>
	<datestamp>1244573400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I grew up in the inne city where in some places it was just as bright as daytime at night. (Those of you from phila know what I'm talking about) In my neighborhood I could see some stars if I was lucky I could see orion or the big dipper. I wasn't until I joined the navy and I was in the middle of the ocean with no land in either direction for hundreds of miles that I was able to see the full splender of the heavens. At 21yrs old I had my first look at the milky way. I had no idea what I was looking at. I wish my son could see these types of things. I have never seen that many stars. Crystal clear cold night in the north atlantic with a new moon. So dark you can barely see your own hand infront of your face but when you look up all you can say is WOW</htmltext>
<tokenext>I grew up in the inne city where in some places it was just as bright as daytime at night .
( Those of you from phila know what I 'm talking about ) In my neighborhood I could see some stars if I was lucky I could see orion or the big dipper .
I was n't until I joined the navy and I was in the middle of the ocean with no land in either direction for hundreds of miles that I was able to see the full splender of the heavens .
At 21yrs old I had my first look at the milky way .
I had no idea what I was looking at .
I wish my son could see these types of things .
I have never seen that many stars .
Crystal clear cold night in the north atlantic with a new moon .
So dark you can barely see your own hand infront of your face but when you look up all you can say is WOW</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I grew up in the inne city where in some places it was just as bright as daytime at night.
(Those of you from phila know what I'm talking about) In my neighborhood I could see some stars if I was lucky I could see orion or the big dipper.
I wasn't until I joined the navy and I was in the middle of the ocean with no land in either direction for hundreds of miles that I was able to see the full splender of the heavens.
At 21yrs old I had my first look at the milky way.
I had no idea what I was looking at.
I wish my son could see these types of things.
I have never seen that many stars.
Crystal clear cold night in the north atlantic with a new moon.
So dark you can barely see your own hand infront of your face but when you look up all you can say is WOW</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266887</id>
	<title>Re:Not pollution</title>
	<author>AndrewNeo</author>
	<datestamp>1244566980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You're right, it's not a literal form of pollution like say, an oil spill, but it is 'polluting' the sky by lowering nighttime visibility.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're right , it 's not a literal form of pollution like say , an oil spill , but it is 'polluting ' the sky by lowering nighttime visibility .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're right, it's not a literal form of pollution like say, an oil spill, but it is 'polluting' the sky by lowering nighttime visibility.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266649</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266669</id>
	<title>Look on the bright side</title>
	<author>Qubit</author>
	<datestamp>1244566320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At least we can still see the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffid" title="wikipedia.org">Triffids</a> [wikipedia.org]...for now.</p><p>Speaking of the bright side, keep your eyes peeled for bright comets.</p><p>No, wait, scratch that.</p><p>I mean, scratch the directive, not your eyes. Just keep your eyes down.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At least we can still see the Triffids [ wikipedia.org ] ...for now.Speaking of the bright side , keep your eyes peeled for bright comets.No , wait , scratch that.I mean , scratch the directive , not your eyes .
Just keep your eyes down .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At least we can still see the Triffids [wikipedia.org]...for now.Speaking of the bright side, keep your eyes peeled for bright comets.No, wait, scratch that.I mean, scratch the directive, not your eyes.
Just keep your eyes down.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266733</id>
	<title>Re:You don't even know you're missing it.</title>
	<author>Verteiron</author>
	<datestamp>1244566500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Obviously you hadn't eaten enough trail mix yet.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Obviously you had n't eaten enough trail mix yet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Obviously you hadn't eaten enough trail mix yet.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266497</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268625</id>
	<title>Tropical North Queensland</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244573460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I brought my American fiancee to Cape Tribulation on a vacation to remote Tropical North Queensland in Australia and the night sky blew us both away - we got away from the bungalows (no street or outdoor lights, under the rain forest and mangroves) and viewed the sky from the beach. We've been to Mauna Kea on Hawaii and while that was great, but we've not seen anything that rivaled the southern hemisphere so far... I think about it often and realize why so much folklore existed about the night sky when you could actually see the damn thing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I brought my American fiancee to Cape Tribulation on a vacation to remote Tropical North Queensland in Australia and the night sky blew us both away - we got away from the bungalows ( no street or outdoor lights , under the rain forest and mangroves ) and viewed the sky from the beach .
We 've been to Mauna Kea on Hawaii and while that was great , but we 've not seen anything that rivaled the southern hemisphere so far... I think about it often and realize why so much folklore existed about the night sky when you could actually see the damn thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I brought my American fiancee to Cape Tribulation on a vacation to remote Tropical North Queensland in Australia and the night sky blew us both away - we got away from the bungalows (no street or outdoor lights, under the rain forest and mangroves) and viewed the sky from the beach.
We've been to Mauna Kea on Hawaii and while that was great, but we've not seen anything that rivaled the southern hemisphere so far... I think about it often and realize why so much folklore existed about the night sky when you could actually see the damn thing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266657</id>
	<title>Also in this month's Cosmos:</title>
	<author>Bluesman</author>
	<datestamp>1244566260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>100 Hidden Constellations He Craves!!!</p><p>Look great to the naked eye!</p><p>Steven Hawking - fun and fearless!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>100 Hidden Constellations He Craves ! !
! Look great to the naked eye ! Steven Hawking - fun and fearless !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>100 Hidden Constellations He Craves!!
!Look great to the naked eye!Steven Hawking - fun and fearless!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268065</id>
	<title>In other news...</title>
	<author>VinB</author>
	<datestamp>1244571360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>... four fifths of the worlds population could honestly give a rat's ass that the other fifth can't see the Milky Way at night. And this just in: one fifth of the world's population now considering living on the moon to avoid real estate taxes and to get a better view of whatever is causing all the fuss in the night sky.</htmltext>
<tokenext>... four fifths of the worlds population could honestly give a rat 's ass that the other fifth ca n't see the Milky Way at night .
And this just in : one fifth of the world 's population now considering living on the moon to avoid real estate taxes and to get a better view of whatever is causing all the fuss in the night sky .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... four fifths of the worlds population could honestly give a rat's ass that the other fifth can't see the Milky Way at night.
And this just in: one fifth of the world's population now considering living on the moon to avoid real estate taxes and to get a better view of whatever is causing all the fuss in the night sky.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268807</id>
	<title>Hawaii</title>
	<author>AnAdventurer</author>
	<datestamp>1244574000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>The Big Island of Hawaii has a great anti-light pollution rules. A) Only 100K people live there anyway B) Strict street light rules. The night sky from Mauna Kea will make you cry: <a href="http://www.anadventurer.com/2008/06/mauna-kea-sunset-and-moon-rise.html" title="anadventurer.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.anadventurer.com/2008/06/mauna-kea-sunset-and-moon-rise.html</a> [anadventurer.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>The Big Island of Hawaii has a great anti-light pollution rules .
A ) Only 100K people live there anyway B ) Strict street light rules .
The night sky from Mauna Kea will make you cry : http : //www.anadventurer.com/2008/06/mauna-kea-sunset-and-moon-rise.html [ anadventurer.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Big Island of Hawaii has a great anti-light pollution rules.
A) Only 100K people live there anyway B) Strict street light rules.
The night sky from Mauna Kea will make you cry: http://www.anadventurer.com/2008/06/mauna-kea-sunset-and-moon-rise.html [anadventurer.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269381</id>
	<title>Re:Light pollution or not...</title>
	<author>K. S. Kyosuke</author>
	<datestamp>1244575920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Haven't heard of that constellation. Is it anywhere near the constellations of Kid's Wagon or Light Bulb Filament?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Have n't heard of that constellation .
Is it anywhere near the constellations of Kid 's Wagon or Light Bulb Filament ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Haven't heard of that constellation.
Is it anywhere near the constellations of Kid's Wagon or Light Bulb Filament?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266567</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28271105</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>dwillden</author>
	<datestamp>1244539680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The thing is, there is a real difference between getting a little further away from the city, and being in a truly artificial light free area.  (Going to a higher altitude also helps.)
<br> <br>
I've spent plenty of time camping in the mountains where I live (Utah).  I enjoy stargazing when away from the cities, but I have never seen the stars like I was able to observe them, while deployed to a blacked out base in a remote valley in Afghanistan last year.  The stars and the Milky Way were a big part of why I really enjoyed the fact that I always came off duty in the middle of the night.  My only problem was keeping from tripping as I tried to walk back to my barracks with my head craned up to the sky on a clear night with a new moon.  And when the moon was fairly full, most people would do without their red or green flashlights to walk around.
<br> <br>
Oh and night vision devices really do bring out the shooting stars but I preferred just the natural sky.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The thing is , there is a real difference between getting a little further away from the city , and being in a truly artificial light free area .
( Going to a higher altitude also helps .
) I 've spent plenty of time camping in the mountains where I live ( Utah ) .
I enjoy stargazing when away from the cities , but I have never seen the stars like I was able to observe them , while deployed to a blacked out base in a remote valley in Afghanistan last year .
The stars and the Milky Way were a big part of why I really enjoyed the fact that I always came off duty in the middle of the night .
My only problem was keeping from tripping as I tried to walk back to my barracks with my head craned up to the sky on a clear night with a new moon .
And when the moon was fairly full , most people would do without their red or green flashlights to walk around .
Oh and night vision devices really do bring out the shooting stars but I preferred just the natural sky .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The thing is, there is a real difference between getting a little further away from the city, and being in a truly artificial light free area.
(Going to a higher altitude also helps.
)
 
I've spent plenty of time camping in the mountains where I live (Utah).
I enjoy stargazing when away from the cities, but I have never seen the stars like I was able to observe them, while deployed to a blacked out base in a remote valley in Afghanistan last year.
The stars and the Milky Way were a big part of why I really enjoyed the fact that I always came off duty in the middle of the night.
My only problem was keeping from tripping as I tried to walk back to my barracks with my head craned up to the sky on a clear night with a new moon.
And when the moon was fairly full, most people would do without their red or green flashlights to walk around.
Oh and night vision devices really do bring out the shooting stars but I preferred just the natural sky.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267591</id>
	<title>Re:It's Not Global Warming!</title>
	<author>PPH</author>
	<datestamp>1244569380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Just turn off some damn lights</p></div><p>No! You can take my 250 Watt Mercury Vapor light (the one without the decent reflector and the buzzing ballast that keeps the neighbors awake at night) hanging in front of my garage when you pry it out of my cold, dead hands. Its in the Constitution somewhere. I'm sure of it.
</p><p>And street lights.We've gotta have street lights to keep don crime. In spite of the fact that all the dope peddlers hang around under the street lights so customers can see them. And statistics don't support a link between lighting and lower crime (except for the ones produced by the power company).
</p><p>And office buildings have to be kept lit 24x7, at 100 foot candles. So we can't seecomputer screens without anti-glare treatment and more powerful back lighting.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just turn off some damn lightsNo !
You can take my 250 Watt Mercury Vapor light ( the one without the decent reflector and the buzzing ballast that keeps the neighbors awake at night ) hanging in front of my garage when you pry it out of my cold , dead hands .
Its in the Constitution somewhere .
I 'm sure of it .
And street lights.We 've got ta have street lights to keep don crime .
In spite of the fact that all the dope peddlers hang around under the street lights so customers can see them .
And statistics do n't support a link between lighting and lower crime ( except for the ones produced by the power company ) .
And office buildings have to be kept lit 24x7 , at 100 foot candles .
So we ca n't seecomputer screens without anti-glare treatment and more powerful back lighting .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just turn off some damn lightsNo!
You can take my 250 Watt Mercury Vapor light (the one without the decent reflector and the buzzing ballast that keeps the neighbors awake at night) hanging in front of my garage when you pry it out of my cold, dead hands.
Its in the Constitution somewhere.
I'm sure of it.
And street lights.We've gotta have street lights to keep don crime.
In spite of the fact that all the dope peddlers hang around under the street lights so customers can see them.
And statistics don't support a link between lighting and lower crime (except for the ones produced by the power company).
And office buildings have to be kept lit 24x7, at 100 foot candles.
So we can't seecomputer screens without anti-glare treatment and more powerful back lighting.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266847</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267033</id>
	<title>Re:It's sad, really.</title>
	<author>DJ Jones</author>
	<datestamp>1244567460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>You ever walk through East Harlem at night, kid?
<br> <br>

Sometimes street lamps are a little more important than allowing New Jersey to have un-obstructed view of the stars.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You ever walk through East Harlem at night , kid ?
Sometimes street lamps are a little more important than allowing New Jersey to have un-obstructed view of the stars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You ever walk through East Harlem at night, kid?
Sometimes street lamps are a little more important than allowing New Jersey to have un-obstructed view of the stars.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266645</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269417</id>
	<title>Re:I can see about 20</title>
	<author>igny</author>
	<datestamp>1244575980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I heard the photoshop can do the trick. Just use the Milky filter.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I heard the photoshop can do the trick .
Just use the Milky filter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I heard the photoshop can do the trick.
Just use the Milky filter.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266557</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</id>
	<title>This is goofy...</title>
	<author>BobMcD</author>
	<datestamp>1244566620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I take issue with a number of things here...</p><p>A) Is this 1/5th immobile?  Can they not hop a commuter train to the suburbs or something?  I'd really like to know.  I know that when I go out to see Dad in Wyoming the difference is absolutely noticeable, but I've always assumed that the same could be gained by finding some road-side location out in 'the sticks'.</p><p>B) When is light 'pollution', and are we okay with (what I assume is) a situational definition of that word?  Is light 'pollution' when it comes out of your headlights?  Or only when Wal-Mart uses it to light their parking lot?  Is there some measurable standard of 'enough' light, and the excess is 'pollution'?  Or is it only 'pollution' when you want it to be dark?  I'd honestly like to know...</p><p>C) What does 'the arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet's natural heritage' mean, exactly?  Are we really weighing the advantages of light at night against 'natural heritage'?  Because, from where I sit, 'living in a cave, eating only what you can kill with a pointy stick' is also our 'natural heritage'.  The rest is technology at work, for better or worse.</p><p>It just strikes me as weird, and I'd love to hear voices from the other side of it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I take issue with a number of things here...A ) Is this 1/5th immobile ?
Can they not hop a commuter train to the suburbs or something ?
I 'd really like to know .
I know that when I go out to see Dad in Wyoming the difference is absolutely noticeable , but I 've always assumed that the same could be gained by finding some road-side location out in 'the sticks'.B ) When is light 'pollution ' , and are we okay with ( what I assume is ) a situational definition of that word ?
Is light 'pollution ' when it comes out of your headlights ?
Or only when Wal-Mart uses it to light their parking lot ?
Is there some measurable standard of 'enough ' light , and the excess is 'pollution ' ?
Or is it only 'pollution ' when you want it to be dark ?
I 'd honestly like to know...C ) What does 'the arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet 's natural heritage ' mean , exactly ?
Are we really weighing the advantages of light at night against 'natural heritage ' ?
Because , from where I sit , 'living in a cave , eating only what you can kill with a pointy stick ' is also our 'natural heritage' .
The rest is technology at work , for better or worse.It just strikes me as weird , and I 'd love to hear voices from the other side of it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I take issue with a number of things here...A) Is this 1/5th immobile?
Can they not hop a commuter train to the suburbs or something?
I'd really like to know.
I know that when I go out to see Dad in Wyoming the difference is absolutely noticeable, but I've always assumed that the same could be gained by finding some road-side location out in 'the sticks'.B) When is light 'pollution', and are we okay with (what I assume is) a situational definition of that word?
Is light 'pollution' when it comes out of your headlights?
Or only when Wal-Mart uses it to light their parking lot?
Is there some measurable standard of 'enough' light, and the excess is 'pollution'?
Or is it only 'pollution' when you want it to be dark?
I'd honestly like to know...C) What does 'the arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet's natural heritage' mean, exactly?
Are we really weighing the advantages of light at night against 'natural heritage'?
Because, from where I sit, 'living in a cave, eating only what you can kill with a pointy stick' is also our 'natural heritage'.
The rest is technology at work, for better or worse.It just strikes me as weird, and I'd love to hear voices from the other side of it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267043</id>
	<title>Europe, Britain and the US</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244567460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When did Britain get moved to a different continent?  Or did we get upgraded?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When did Britain get moved to a different continent ?
Or did we get upgraded ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When did Britain get moved to a different continent?
Or did we get upgraded?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28272917</id>
	<title>Re:This is goofy...</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1244549400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is pollution when it causes more harm than good. Lighting an entire empty parking lot at 3 A.M. can't be doing much good especially when the store is closed, so any harm it might do at all will outweigh it. The light from a streetlight that goes UP is doing no good at all, just harm.</p><p>Given that much of the problem could be eliminated using simple, cheap , and well understood technology such as reflectors, timers, and light switches for that matter and that light pollution abatement would also conserve energy, it's an outrage that nothing is done.</p><p>For the entire written history of Man, the stars have inspired wonder (probably well before that, but we can't prove it) and storytelling (that is, continuity of our culture). Part of that has always been the pervasive appearance of the stars. No matter where you went at night, there they were. You could be sure that someone a thousand miles away was seeing the same thing.  Something is lost if you have to plan an outing to see the stars. Not to mention those outings become increasingly difficult as the light pollution sprawls.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is pollution when it causes more harm than good .
Lighting an entire empty parking lot at 3 A.M. ca n't be doing much good especially when the store is closed , so any harm it might do at all will outweigh it .
The light from a streetlight that goes UP is doing no good at all , just harm.Given that much of the problem could be eliminated using simple , cheap , and well understood technology such as reflectors , timers , and light switches for that matter and that light pollution abatement would also conserve energy , it 's an outrage that nothing is done.For the entire written history of Man , the stars have inspired wonder ( probably well before that , but we ca n't prove it ) and storytelling ( that is , continuity of our culture ) .
Part of that has always been the pervasive appearance of the stars .
No matter where you went at night , there they were .
You could be sure that someone a thousand miles away was seeing the same thing .
Something is lost if you have to plan an outing to see the stars .
Not to mention those outings become increasingly difficult as the light pollution sprawls .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is pollution when it causes more harm than good.
Lighting an entire empty parking lot at 3 A.M. can't be doing much good especially when the store is closed, so any harm it might do at all will outweigh it.
The light from a streetlight that goes UP is doing no good at all, just harm.Given that much of the problem could be eliminated using simple, cheap , and well understood technology such as reflectors, timers, and light switches for that matter and that light pollution abatement would also conserve energy, it's an outrage that nothing is done.For the entire written history of Man, the stars have inspired wonder (probably well before that, but we can't prove it) and storytelling (that is, continuity of our culture).
Part of that has always been the pervasive appearance of the stars.
No matter where you went at night, there they were.
You could be sure that someone a thousand miles away was seeing the same thing.
Something is lost if you have to plan an outing to see the stars.
Not to mention those outings become increasingly difficult as the light pollution sprawls.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267545</id>
	<title>Re:I can see about 20</title>
	<author>Verdatum</author>
	<datestamp>1244569200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>2009: A Space Odyssey "My God!  It's full of stars!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...Or so I am told."</htmltext>
<tokenext>2009 : A Space Odyssey " My God !
It 's full of stars !
...Or so I am told .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>2009: A Space Odyssey "My God!
It's full of stars!
...Or so I am told.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266557</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266905</id>
	<title>Re:Not pollution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244567040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I see far more whining "from every corner" from people like you ("environmentalism, wah wah wahhh, eco-greeny, boo hoo hoo sob") than I see from the environmentalists.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I see far more whining " from every corner " from people like you ( " environmentalism , wah wah wahhh , eco-greeny , boo hoo hoo sob " ) than I see from the environmentalists .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I see far more whining "from every corner" from people like you ("environmentalism, wah wah wahhh, eco-greeny, boo hoo hoo sob") than I see from the environmentalists.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266649</parent>
</comment>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_09_151223_34</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266443
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267061
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_09_151223_94</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267251
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_09_151223_10</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267431
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268751
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_09_151223_68</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266475
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266863
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28270619
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_09_151223_106</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266769
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28277447
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_09_151223_59</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266563
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28267099
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28269761
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_09_151223_6</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266475
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28266863
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_09_151223.28268893
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
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