<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article09_06_08_1557210</id>
	<title>Kids Score 40 Percent Higher When They Get Paid For Grades</title>
	<author>samzenpus</author>
	<datestamp>1244484840000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>A large number of schools participating in a <a href="http://www.nypost.com/seven/06082009/news/regionalnews/learn\_\_earn\_plan\_pays\_off\_173099.htm">pay-for-grades program</a> have seen test scores in reading and math go up by almost 40 percentage points. The Sparks program will pay seventh-graders up to $500 and fourth-graders as much as $250 for good performance on 10 assessment tests. About two-thirds of the 59 schools in the program improved their scores by margins above the citywide average. "It's an ego booster in terms of self-worth. When they get the checks, there's that competitiveness -- 'Oh, I'm going to get more money than you next time' -- so it's something that excites them," said Rose Marie Mills, principal at MS 343 in Mott Haven. Critics, who are unaware that most college students don't become liberal arts majors, argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A large number of schools participating in a pay-for-grades program have seen test scores in reading and math go up by almost 40 percentage points .
The Sparks program will pay seventh-graders up to $ 500 and fourth-graders as much as $ 250 for good performance on 10 assessment tests .
About two-thirds of the 59 schools in the program improved their scores by margins above the citywide average .
" It 's an ego booster in terms of self-worth .
When they get the checks , there 's that competitiveness -- 'Oh , I 'm going to get more money than you next time ' -- so it 's something that excites them , " said Rose Marie Mills , principal at MS 343 in Mott Haven .
Critics , who are unaware that most college students do n't become liberal arts majors , argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education 's sake alone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A large number of schools participating in a pay-for-grades program have seen test scores in reading and math go up by almost 40 percentage points.
The Sparks program will pay seventh-graders up to $500 and fourth-graders as much as $250 for good performance on 10 assessment tests.
About two-thirds of the 59 schools in the program improved their scores by margins above the citywide average.
"It's an ego booster in terms of self-worth.
When they get the checks, there's that competitiveness -- 'Oh, I'm going to get more money than you next time' -- so it's something that excites them," said Rose Marie Mills, principal at MS 343 in Mott Haven.
Critics, who are unaware that most college students don't become liberal arts majors, argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone.</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253941</id>
	<title>Re:yah</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244489640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>Money is motivation. Learning just for the hell of it is not.</i> <br> <br>

Yeah, yeah, that's all very interesting, but I said <b>paper</b>, not plastic.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Money is motivation .
Learning just for the hell of it is not .
Yeah , yeah , that 's all very interesting , but I said paper , not plastic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Money is motivation.
Learning just for the hell of it is not.
Yeah, yeah, that's all very interesting, but I said paper, not plastic.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253745</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254415</id>
	<title>The value of our education...</title>
	<author>Pollux</author>
	<datestamp>1244491740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>After teaching in Cairo, Egypt for a year at a private school, I found out the value of an American Education.</p><p>$10,000 a year.</p><p>That's how much the richest of the richest in Cairo were willing to pay so that their kids could get an American education.</p><p>It's sad to know that we have to pay our kids to go to school now.  We're teaching our children that their education has no value, which is so egregiously incorrect.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>After teaching in Cairo , Egypt for a year at a private school , I found out the value of an American Education. $ 10,000 a year.That 's how much the richest of the richest in Cairo were willing to pay so that their kids could get an American education.It 's sad to know that we have to pay our kids to go to school now .
We 're teaching our children that their education has no value , which is so egregiously incorrect .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>After teaching in Cairo, Egypt for a year at a private school, I found out the value of an American Education.$10,000 a year.That's how much the richest of the richest in Cairo were willing to pay so that their kids could get an American education.It's sad to know that we have to pay our kids to go to school now.
We're teaching our children that their education has no value, which is so egregiously incorrect.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254099</id>
	<title>Re:Scores may go up, but I doubt comprehension is</title>
	<author>Alexandra Erenhart</author>
	<datestamp>1244490300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well in my knowledge, bribes have always been there to make kids with low scores attempt to get higher ones, like parents promising the kid to buy them whatever they want, or taking them wherever they want, or similar. I bet money has been there too. But that seems to be ok for kids with very low interest in learning. Like someone wrote several posts above, you don't need to do that with kids that get high scores, they already have their own motivation to do so. If you pay them, those motivations will be crushed by the incentive of money, and that sounds like corrupting to me. If those kids get used to be bribed like that, what stops them from taking bribes once they have jobs, to do something not very, eh, ethical perhaps?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well in my knowledge , bribes have always been there to make kids with low scores attempt to get higher ones , like parents promising the kid to buy them whatever they want , or taking them wherever they want , or similar .
I bet money has been there too .
But that seems to be ok for kids with very low interest in learning .
Like someone wrote several posts above , you do n't need to do that with kids that get high scores , they already have their own motivation to do so .
If you pay them , those motivations will be crushed by the incentive of money , and that sounds like corrupting to me .
If those kids get used to be bribed like that , what stops them from taking bribes once they have jobs , to do something not very , eh , ethical perhaps ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well in my knowledge, bribes have always been there to make kids with low scores attempt to get higher ones, like parents promising the kid to buy them whatever they want, or taking them wherever they want, or similar.
I bet money has been there too.
But that seems to be ok for kids with very low interest in learning.
Like someone wrote several posts above, you don't need to do that with kids that get high scores, they already have their own motivation to do so.
If you pay them, those motivations will be crushed by the incentive of money, and that sounds like corrupting to me.
If those kids get used to be bribed like that, what stops them from taking bribes once they have jobs, to do something not very, eh, ethical perhaps?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253717</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256491</id>
	<title>Re:Education's sake?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244455260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've got you beat: I was on the 8 year plan.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've got you beat : I was on the 8 year plan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've got you beat: I was on the 8 year plan.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253907</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253965</id>
	<title>Only School Equals Learning?</title>
	<author>pizzach</author>
	<datestamp>1244489760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Interesting.  If this program was implemented when I was growing up, I probably wouldn't be a college dropout.  I also probably wouldn't be fluent in Japanese with reading and writing capabilities as well as be a web developers with side knowledge of programing in gtk using C as well as an assortment of other languages.</p><p>At the point I am at now, I feel like the only thing that College has done for me is get me in a huge amount of dept.  This program may have set me right.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Interesting .
If this program was implemented when I was growing up , I probably would n't be a college dropout .
I also probably would n't be fluent in Japanese with reading and writing capabilities as well as be a web developers with side knowledge of programing in gtk using C as well as an assortment of other languages.At the point I am at now , I feel like the only thing that College has done for me is get me in a huge amount of dept .
This program may have set me right .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Interesting.
If this program was implemented when I was growing up, I probably wouldn't be a college dropout.
I also probably wouldn't be fluent in Japanese with reading and writing capabilities as well as be a web developers with side knowledge of programing in gtk using C as well as an assortment of other languages.At the point I am at now, I feel like the only thing that College has done for me is get me in a huge amount of dept.
This program may have set me right.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28268381</id>
	<title>Whats the big deal</title>
	<author>ddraculdiablo</author>
	<datestamp>1244572500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What is the big deal about paying kids for good grades? Parents do it all the time $20 per A, $10 per B. So the school is doing now SO WHAT!! I wish they did this while I was in school I would have applied my self allot more. Most children do not/can not see properly into the future. They don&#226;(TM)t plan for the future the way we do. If we give them a reason to sit through these boring as hell classes other then you need this to get a job, then I'm all for it. I would say that 98\% of adults who have any degree will tell you that they did not get their degree because they love learning, they got it so they could advance in their current position or get a better position i.e. MORE MONEY!!!!!! The only difference is with the kids is that&#226;(TM)s its more short term then long term</htmltext>
<tokenext>What is the big deal about paying kids for good grades ?
Parents do it all the time $ 20 per A , $ 10 per B. So the school is doing now SO WHAT ! !
I wish they did this while I was in school I would have applied my self allot more .
Most children do not/can not see properly into the future .
They don   ( TM ) t plan for the future the way we do .
If we give them a reason to sit through these boring as hell classes other then you need this to get a job , then I 'm all for it .
I would say that 98 \ % of adults who have any degree will tell you that they did not get their degree because they love learning , they got it so they could advance in their current position or get a better position i.e .
MORE MONEY ! ! ! ! ! !
The only difference is with the kids is that   ( TM ) s its more short term then long term</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What is the big deal about paying kids for good grades?
Parents do it all the time $20 per A, $10 per B. So the school is doing now SO WHAT!!
I wish they did this while I was in school I would have applied my self allot more.
Most children do not/can not see properly into the future.
They donâ(TM)t plan for the future the way we do.
If we give them a reason to sit through these boring as hell classes other then you need this to get a job, then I'm all for it.
I would say that 98\% of adults who have any degree will tell you that they did not get their degree because they love learning, they got it so they could advance in their current position or get a better position i.e.
MORE MONEY!!!!!!
The only difference is with the kids is thatâ(TM)s its more short term then long term</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255057</id>
	<title>They needed a study?</title>
	<author>SeeSp0tRun</author>
	<datestamp>1244494200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Are you kidding me?  People actually needed a study to tell them that others, especially children, are financially motivated?
<br> <br>
I am no Einstein here, by any means, but I did manage to nearly ace the SAT in 8th grade and still manage to fail a course a year in high school.  Why? Because it didn't matter.  I still got into a good college, am finishing up a degree in IT (with over 3.8 GPA), and just wish someone would have thought of this sooner.  Hell, if I could get paid by being smarter than all of my peers, not only would I have done better in school... I would have had that spiffy new PS2 the day it came out.
<br> <br>
I believe it was Daniel Tosh who said something like: "Can money buy happiness? Maybe not, but it can buy a wave-runner.  Try frowning on one of those."</htmltext>
<tokenext>Are you kidding me ?
People actually needed a study to tell them that others , especially children , are financially motivated ?
I am no Einstein here , by any means , but I did manage to nearly ace the SAT in 8th grade and still manage to fail a course a year in high school .
Why ? Because it did n't matter .
I still got into a good college , am finishing up a degree in IT ( with over 3.8 GPA ) , and just wish someone would have thought of this sooner .
Hell , if I could get paid by being smarter than all of my peers , not only would I have done better in school... I would have had that spiffy new PS2 the day it came out .
I believe it was Daniel Tosh who said something like : " Can money buy happiness ?
Maybe not , but it can buy a wave-runner .
Try frowning on one of those .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are you kidding me?
People actually needed a study to tell them that others, especially children, are financially motivated?
I am no Einstein here, by any means, but I did manage to nearly ace the SAT in 8th grade and still manage to fail a course a year in high school.
Why? Because it didn't matter.
I still got into a good college, am finishing up a degree in IT (with over 3.8 GPA), and just wish someone would have thought of this sooner.
Hell, if I could get paid by being smarter than all of my peers, not only would I have done better in school... I would have had that spiffy new PS2 the day it came out.
I believe it was Daniel Tosh who said something like: "Can money buy happiness?
Maybe not, but it can buy a wave-runner.
Try frowning on one of those.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254353</id>
	<title>Re:yah</title>
	<author>anarchyboy</author>
	<datestamp>1244491440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I don't know anyone who learns for the sakes of education.</p> </div><p>
I do</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know anyone who learns for the sakes of education .
I do</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know anyone who learns for the sakes of education.
I do
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253745</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254423</id>
	<title>Re:Don't kid yourelves</title>
	<author>Ender\_Stonebender</author>
	<datestamp>1244491740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Have him take the GED (from your description, he'll pass easily) and either apply to college or get a job.  Clearly, school is torture for him, and totally unnecessary to his further development, so why are you, as a loving parent, forcing him to stay in school?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Have him take the GED ( from your description , he 'll pass easily ) and either apply to college or get a job .
Clearly , school is torture for him , and totally unnecessary to his further development , so why are you , as a loving parent , forcing him to stay in school ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have him take the GED (from your description, he'll pass easily) and either apply to college or get a job.
Clearly, school is torture for him, and totally unnecessary to his further development, so why are you, as a loving parent, forcing him to stay in school?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253847</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254207</id>
	<title>Re:I had straight 8's all the way through highscho</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244490780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're out of luck.  The program will never leave schools where the students are exceptionally poor and where graduation rates as well as basic math and reading skills are dismal.</p><p>My parents had the same philosophy:  pay the lazy kid who barely cares enough to get out of bed in the morning for getting good grades, not the kid who would do well regardless of whether or not you paid him.  The con was that my idiot brother then proceeded to register for classes with the mentally disabled kids so that he could get the maximum payout for the minimum of work.  At least they're giving rewards for scores on standardized tests to try to prevent kids from gaming the system, but you know that the kids will find a way.</p><p>I firmly believe that education is a state and local responsibility, so far be it from me to criticize these parents for deciding to collectively pay their kids to go to school... but if they tried it in my area, someone would be receiving an angry phone call.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're out of luck .
The program will never leave schools where the students are exceptionally poor and where graduation rates as well as basic math and reading skills are dismal.My parents had the same philosophy : pay the lazy kid who barely cares enough to get out of bed in the morning for getting good grades , not the kid who would do well regardless of whether or not you paid him .
The con was that my idiot brother then proceeded to register for classes with the mentally disabled kids so that he could get the maximum payout for the minimum of work .
At least they 're giving rewards for scores on standardized tests to try to prevent kids from gaming the system , but you know that the kids will find a way.I firmly believe that education is a state and local responsibility , so far be it from me to criticize these parents for deciding to collectively pay their kids to go to school... but if they tried it in my area , someone would be receiving an angry phone call .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're out of luck.
The program will never leave schools where the students are exceptionally poor and where graduation rates as well as basic math and reading skills are dismal.My parents had the same philosophy:  pay the lazy kid who barely cares enough to get out of bed in the morning for getting good grades, not the kid who would do well regardless of whether or not you paid him.
The con was that my idiot brother then proceeded to register for classes with the mentally disabled kids so that he could get the maximum payout for the minimum of work.
At least they're giving rewards for scores on standardized tests to try to prevent kids from gaming the system, but you know that the kids will find a way.I firmly believe that education is a state and local responsibility, so far be it from me to criticize these parents for deciding to collectively pay their kids to go to school... but if they tried it in my area, someone would be receiving an angry phone call.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253755</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253835</id>
	<title>Rewards</title>
	<author>EkriirkE</author>
	<datestamp>1244489340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't know if this is still done, but I remember growing up some fast food places would give a free ice cream or sandwich to a all-a/b report card.
<br> <br><nobr> <wbr></nobr>...I never got any<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:(</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know if this is still done , but I remember growing up some fast food places would give a free ice cream or sandwich to a all-a/b report card .
...I never got any : (</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know if this is still done, but I remember growing up some fast food places would give a free ice cream or sandwich to a all-a/b report card.
...I never got any :(</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28262899</id>
	<title>Re:Compete with drugs</title>
	<author>MariusBoo</author>
	<datestamp>1244540940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think the "compete with drugs" works the other way too. If I can make 500 doing homework and 600 dealing drugs (stealing etc.) and money is the only motivator than I'm going to deal drugs.</p><p>I think a big part of the problem is ignoring that kids are really smart and that we should treat them as small, weak inexperienced adults. We should we explain to them why it is good to study and if all else fails just force them. Trying to make up a "game" (grades, money etc.) just confuses them and makes them want to game or ignore the system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the " compete with drugs " works the other way too .
If I can make 500 doing homework and 600 dealing drugs ( stealing etc .
) and money is the only motivator than I 'm going to deal drugs.I think a big part of the problem is ignoring that kids are really smart and that we should treat them as small , weak inexperienced adults .
We should we explain to them why it is good to study and if all else fails just force them .
Trying to make up a " game " ( grades , money etc .
) just confuses them and makes them want to game or ignore the system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the "compete with drugs" works the other way too.
If I can make 500 doing homework and 600 dealing drugs (stealing etc.
) and money is the only motivator than I'm going to deal drugs.I think a big part of the problem is ignoring that kids are really smart and that we should treat them as small, weak inexperienced adults.
We should we explain to them why it is good to study and if all else fails just force them.
Trying to make up a "game" (grades, money etc.
) just confuses them and makes them want to game or ignore the system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253973</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255745</id>
	<title>Ah, Empirical Evidence!</title>
	<author>gilgongo</author>
	<datestamp>1244452920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Good to know <a href="http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1236923&amp;cid=28002233" title="slashdot.org">my theory</a> [slashdot.org] has met with some real-world verification.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Good to know my theory [ slashdot.org ] has met with some real-world verification .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good to know my theory [slashdot.org] has met with some real-world verification.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255651</id>
	<title>Inquiring minds want to know...</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1244452560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How much improvement in scores is seen if the teacher promises to have sex with the A students?</htmltext>
<tokenext>How much improvement in scores is seen if the teacher promises to have sex with the A students ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How much improvement in scores is seen if the teacher promises to have sex with the A students?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254363</id>
	<title>parents?</title>
	<author>sckeener</author>
	<datestamp>1244491500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have to wonder if the parents became more involved with their kids once money was brought into the picture.

I think another study needs to be done to see if there is a way to encourage parents to be good parents and if that affects kids' scores</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have to wonder if the parents became more involved with their kids once money was brought into the picture .
I think another study needs to be done to see if there is a way to encourage parents to be good parents and if that affects kids ' scores</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have to wonder if the parents became more involved with their kids once money was brought into the picture.
I think another study needs to be done to see if there is a way to encourage parents to be good parents and if that affects kids' scores</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254195</id>
	<title>Money is always...</title>
	<author>Schnoogs</author>
	<datestamp>1244490780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>...an acceptable substitute for parental supervision and interest into what their children are learning.  The latchkey, Playstation generation needs to be bribed to actually educate themselves because frankly their parents couldn't be bothered.  Absolutely pathetic if you ask me.  Children 50 years ago would die if they saw how easy kids have it today.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...an acceptable substitute for parental supervision and interest into what their children are learning .
The latchkey , Playstation generation needs to be bribed to actually educate themselves because frankly their parents could n't be bothered .
Absolutely pathetic if you ask me .
Children 50 years ago would die if they saw how easy kids have it today .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...an acceptable substitute for parental supervision and interest into what their children are learning.
The latchkey, Playstation generation needs to be bribed to actually educate themselves because frankly their parents couldn't be bothered.
Absolutely pathetic if you ask me.
Children 50 years ago would die if they saw how easy kids have it today.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28259817</id>
	<title>human mgmt</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244471400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>is always about how to corrupt</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>is always about how to corrupt</tokentext>
<sentencetext>is always about how to corrupt</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28259059</id>
	<title>Re:It makes academic success immediately tangible.</title>
	<author>Faerunner</author>
	<datestamp>1244466960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ah, but improving the pay of a single teacher can not only improve the teacher's motivation to work, it can affect an entire class of pupils and all subsequent classes whereas paying each pupil individually only improves that single student and as soon as you quit paying they quit playing. Compare giving a teacher a $500 bonus every month they meet teaching standards (which granted is as stupid as paying for test scores, but we'll keep it all on the same level) with paying a class of 30 kids for meeting a standardized test score, then multiply by the number of standardized tests generally given in one year. The teacher's pay raise will save you money in the long run and might provide incentives for better teachers to stick around.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ah , but improving the pay of a single teacher can not only improve the teacher 's motivation to work , it can affect an entire class of pupils and all subsequent classes whereas paying each pupil individually only improves that single student and as soon as you quit paying they quit playing .
Compare giving a teacher a $ 500 bonus every month they meet teaching standards ( which granted is as stupid as paying for test scores , but we 'll keep it all on the same level ) with paying a class of 30 kids for meeting a standardized test score , then multiply by the number of standardized tests generally given in one year .
The teacher 's pay raise will save you money in the long run and might provide incentives for better teachers to stick around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ah, but improving the pay of a single teacher can not only improve the teacher's motivation to work, it can affect an entire class of pupils and all subsequent classes whereas paying each pupil individually only improves that single student and as soon as you quit paying they quit playing.
Compare giving a teacher a $500 bonus every month they meet teaching standards (which granted is as stupid as paying for test scores, but we'll keep it all on the same level) with paying a class of 30 kids for meeting a standardized test score, then multiply by the number of standardized tests generally given in one year.
The teacher's pay raise will save you money in the long run and might provide incentives for better teachers to stick around.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254223</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28263527</id>
	<title>Re:and on the other end...</title>
	<author>jambarama</author>
	<datestamp>1244549100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Someone asked me for a study on this point, so I'll post it here for inquiring minds.  I only recall one study off the top of my head, though I know others are out there.  You may know this already, but there are several economic journals dedicated to housing, labor, and poverty - they'd be a good start if you wanted to read more.  <br> <br>

The article is a bit dated - from 2004 - my apologies on that, I haven't kept up with more current research, if any exists, on this topic.  Without further ado, the article is entitled <i>"Public Housing, Housing Vouchers, and Student Achievement: Evidence from Public Housing Demolitions in Chicago"</i> and the primary author is Brian Jacob.    <br> <br>

Basically, the city of Chicago demolished some slummy towers and the residents moved to "substantially better neighborhoods" with vouchers.  The study follows the educational achievement of the children of those who stayed in public housing (non-demolished towers) as well as the children of those who moved.  The study finds performance doesn't differ meaningfully between the two groups in educational attainment or poverty.   <br> <br>

The study does have some flaws - for example, the study was big, but looked only at those forced to relocate, taking volunteers might produce better results - though that may just re-enforce the finding that whatever makes most of these kids perform poorly transfers with their family.  Anyhow, I think the study is statistically meaningful and the methodology is reasonably sound.   <br> <br>

Additionally, re-reading my comment here, I believe I overstated the results - the students here weren't moved to wealthy areas.   I'm sure I read a study on that, and I recall that the transplants reduced their peers performance but did no better themselves, but I won't look that up, since it had smaller control &amp; test groups, plus this study is pretty close.  Anyhow, here residents were moved to significantly better areas, but not wealthy areas.  <br> <br>

<a href="http://www.jstor.org/pss/3592777" title="jstor.org">JSTOR Page</a> [jstor.org] &amp; <a href="http://www.demog.berkeley.edu/~ebenstei/fields/Labor/Labor\%20250C/Jacob\_04.pdf" title="berkeley.edu">PDF</a> [berkeley.edu].</htmltext>
<tokenext>Someone asked me for a study on this point , so I 'll post it here for inquiring minds .
I only recall one study off the top of my head , though I know others are out there .
You may know this already , but there are several economic journals dedicated to housing , labor , and poverty - they 'd be a good start if you wanted to read more .
The article is a bit dated - from 2004 - my apologies on that , I have n't kept up with more current research , if any exists , on this topic .
Without further ado , the article is entitled " Public Housing , Housing Vouchers , and Student Achievement : Evidence from Public Housing Demolitions in Chicago " and the primary author is Brian Jacob .
Basically , the city of Chicago demolished some slummy towers and the residents moved to " substantially better neighborhoods " with vouchers .
The study follows the educational achievement of the children of those who stayed in public housing ( non-demolished towers ) as well as the children of those who moved .
The study finds performance does n't differ meaningfully between the two groups in educational attainment or poverty .
The study does have some flaws - for example , the study was big , but looked only at those forced to relocate , taking volunteers might produce better results - though that may just re-enforce the finding that whatever makes most of these kids perform poorly transfers with their family .
Anyhow , I think the study is statistically meaningful and the methodology is reasonably sound .
Additionally , re-reading my comment here , I believe I overstated the results - the students here were n't moved to wealthy areas .
I 'm sure I read a study on that , and I recall that the transplants reduced their peers performance but did no better themselves , but I wo n't look that up , since it had smaller control &amp; test groups , plus this study is pretty close .
Anyhow , here residents were moved to significantly better areas , but not wealthy areas .
JSTOR Page [ jstor.org ] &amp; PDF [ berkeley.edu ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Someone asked me for a study on this point, so I'll post it here for inquiring minds.
I only recall one study off the top of my head, though I know others are out there.
You may know this already, but there are several economic journals dedicated to housing, labor, and poverty - they'd be a good start if you wanted to read more.
The article is a bit dated - from 2004 - my apologies on that, I haven't kept up with more current research, if any exists, on this topic.
Without further ado, the article is entitled "Public Housing, Housing Vouchers, and Student Achievement: Evidence from Public Housing Demolitions in Chicago" and the primary author is Brian Jacob.
Basically, the city of Chicago demolished some slummy towers and the residents moved to "substantially better neighborhoods" with vouchers.
The study follows the educational achievement of the children of those who stayed in public housing (non-demolished towers) as well as the children of those who moved.
The study finds performance doesn't differ meaningfully between the two groups in educational attainment or poverty.
The study does have some flaws - for example, the study was big, but looked only at those forced to relocate, taking volunteers might produce better results - though that may just re-enforce the finding that whatever makes most of these kids perform poorly transfers with their family.
Anyhow, I think the study is statistically meaningful and the methodology is reasonably sound.
Additionally, re-reading my comment here, I believe I overstated the results - the students here weren't moved to wealthy areas.
I'm sure I read a study on that, and I recall that the transplants reduced their peers performance but did no better themselves, but I won't look that up, since it had smaller control &amp; test groups, plus this study is pretty close.
Anyhow, here residents were moved to significantly better areas, but not wealthy areas.
JSTOR Page [jstor.org] &amp; PDF [berkeley.edu].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255035</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255903</id>
	<title>Re:Look in the mirror</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244453340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"SOCIETY we have built"?</p><p>You are aware that humans have had all of those traits since before what we consider "society" even existed, yes?</p><p>-Fartnog Buttstinkle</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" SOCIETY we have built " ? You are aware that humans have had all of those traits since before what we consider " society " even existed , yes ? -Fartnog Buttstinkle</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"SOCIETY we have built"?You are aware that humans have had all of those traits since before what we consider "society" even existed, yes?-Fartnog Buttstinkle</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253947</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257395</id>
	<title>Re:Who'da thunk?</title>
	<author>Froze</author>
	<datestamp>1244458680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I like the cut of you jib. Newsletter subscription please<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)</htmltext>
<tokenext>I like the cut of you jib .
Newsletter subscription please ; - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I like the cut of you jib.
Newsletter subscription please ;-)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255007</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257829</id>
	<title>Re:yah</title>
	<author>shentino</author>
	<datestamp>1244460240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem with intrinsic motivation is that in the real world, being smart and artsy doesn't earn you CRAP when the real "men" can claw their way to the top by sheer aggressiveness.</p><p>Our society rewards aggressive behavior and practically cheers when the good guy loses to a cheater.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem with intrinsic motivation is that in the real world , being smart and artsy does n't earn you CRAP when the real " men " can claw their way to the top by sheer aggressiveness.Our society rewards aggressive behavior and practically cheers when the good guy loses to a cheater .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem with intrinsic motivation is that in the real world, being smart and artsy doesn't earn you CRAP when the real "men" can claw their way to the top by sheer aggressiveness.Our society rewards aggressive behavior and practically cheers when the good guy loses to a cheater.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253745</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28261513</id>
	<title>Re:Education's sake?</title>
	<author>metaforest</author>
	<datestamp>1244482020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think this is more sizzle than steak.</p><p>While there is no doubt that a 4 year degree can have a lot of valuable content, the only thing that 4 year degree really proves, at the end of the day, is that the student can follow through on a long term goal and jump through hoops on command.</p><p>Employers find that more comforting for some reason.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think this is more sizzle than steak.While there is no doubt that a 4 year degree can have a lot of valuable content , the only thing that 4 year degree really proves , at the end of the day , is that the student can follow through on a long term goal and jump through hoops on command.Employers find that more comforting for some reason .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think this is more sizzle than steak.While there is no doubt that a 4 year degree can have a lot of valuable content, the only thing that 4 year degree really proves, at the end of the day, is that the student can follow through on a long term goal and jump through hoops on command.Employers find that more comforting for some reason.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253907</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28258207</id>
	<title>Re:learning for education's sake?</title>
	<author>DaveGod</author>
	<datestamp>1244461860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sadly, belief in education and a drive for learning cannot be taken as a given. Unfortunately, it usually is. </p><p>Quite a lot of kids get rewarded in some form by the parents for good grades. Maybe it's a pocket money bonus, maybe it's a family meal out, maybe it's a proud pat on the back or the report card stuck to the refrigerator. At some point during their childhood the vast majority of these kids find themselves believing in the value of education, or at least anticipating sufficient reward from it. Even without, educated parents who earn well leaves a easy exercise for the kids to connect the dots. For the kids who don't have this parental input, either they figure it out for themselves, or they don't. Teachers can have some input, but with class sizes what they are, unless the parents give them a good head start they have no chance.</p><p>When I ask any teacher what their biggest problem is they make sure nobody is in earshot then tell me it's the parents. Some think theirs is the special snowflake, which is a nuisance, but then there are those who don't care at all (and oh boy does it get worse). Trying to solve that is a real problem, these parents do not get involved in the debate and sure as hell no paper or politician is going to start telling their readers/voters that the reason grades are down is because they are bad parents. </p><p>I'm not sure that paying for grades is the right way, but I applaud whomever it was that conjured it up because I'm pretty sure they have at least figured out this one part of the problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sadly , belief in education and a drive for learning can not be taken as a given .
Unfortunately , it usually is .
Quite a lot of kids get rewarded in some form by the parents for good grades .
Maybe it 's a pocket money bonus , maybe it 's a family meal out , maybe it 's a proud pat on the back or the report card stuck to the refrigerator .
At some point during their childhood the vast majority of these kids find themselves believing in the value of education , or at least anticipating sufficient reward from it .
Even without , educated parents who earn well leaves a easy exercise for the kids to connect the dots .
For the kids who do n't have this parental input , either they figure it out for themselves , or they do n't .
Teachers can have some input , but with class sizes what they are , unless the parents give them a good head start they have no chance.When I ask any teacher what their biggest problem is they make sure nobody is in earshot then tell me it 's the parents .
Some think theirs is the special snowflake , which is a nuisance , but then there are those who do n't care at all ( and oh boy does it get worse ) .
Trying to solve that is a real problem , these parents do not get involved in the debate and sure as hell no paper or politician is going to start telling their readers/voters that the reason grades are down is because they are bad parents .
I 'm not sure that paying for grades is the right way , but I applaud whomever it was that conjured it up because I 'm pretty sure they have at least figured out this one part of the problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sadly, belief in education and a drive for learning cannot be taken as a given.
Unfortunately, it usually is.
Quite a lot of kids get rewarded in some form by the parents for good grades.
Maybe it's a pocket money bonus, maybe it's a family meal out, maybe it's a proud pat on the back or the report card stuck to the refrigerator.
At some point during their childhood the vast majority of these kids find themselves believing in the value of education, or at least anticipating sufficient reward from it.
Even without, educated parents who earn well leaves a easy exercise for the kids to connect the dots.
For the kids who don't have this parental input, either they figure it out for themselves, or they don't.
Teachers can have some input, but with class sizes what they are, unless the parents give them a good head start they have no chance.When I ask any teacher what their biggest problem is they make sure nobody is in earshot then tell me it's the parents.
Some think theirs is the special snowflake, which is a nuisance, but then there are those who don't care at all (and oh boy does it get worse).
Trying to solve that is a real problem, these parents do not get involved in the debate and sure as hell no paper or politician is going to start telling their readers/voters that the reason grades are down is because they are bad parents.
I'm not sure that paying for grades is the right way, but I applaud whomever it was that conjured it up because I'm pretty sure they have at least figured out this one part of the problem.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254757</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253753</id>
	<title>Show me the money.</title>
	<author>Neanderthal Ninny</author>
	<datestamp>1244488980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The quote from Jerry Maguire and your  kids will say "Show me the money!". Gee, I wonder what does it speak about our economy and our situation.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The quote from Jerry Maguire and your kids will say " Show me the money ! " .
Gee , I wonder what does it speak about our economy and our situation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The quote from Jerry Maguire and your  kids will say "Show me the money!".
Gee, I wonder what does it speak about our economy and our situation.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28259145</id>
	<title>Bribery Works</title>
	<author>LifesABeach</author>
	<datestamp>1244467500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a parent, I have tried many things to motivate my children.  But the one most successful method has been money for pre-stated accomplishments.  Money for success works; period.  My eldest just turned 18, and will go off to college.  I guess teaching her to be goal oriented with long term planning will finally flourish, or something else not so promising.  But from personal experience, I have been more involved when rewards were put in writing, then backed up with results...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a parent , I have tried many things to motivate my children .
But the one most successful method has been money for pre-stated accomplishments .
Money for success works ; period .
My eldest just turned 18 , and will go off to college .
I guess teaching her to be goal oriented with long term planning will finally flourish , or something else not so promising .
But from personal experience , I have been more involved when rewards were put in writing , then backed up with results.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a parent, I have tried many things to motivate my children.
But the one most successful method has been money for pre-stated accomplishments.
Money for success works; period.
My eldest just turned 18, and will go off to college.
I guess teaching her to be goal oriented with long term planning will finally flourish, or something else not so promising.
But from personal experience, I have been more involved when rewards were put in writing, then backed up with results...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254535</id>
	<title>Funny</title>
	<author>Greyfox</author>
	<datestamp>1244492220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My motivation for good grades was avoiding a beating. That seemed like a pretty effective motivational strategy.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My motivation for good grades was avoiding a beating .
That seemed like a pretty effective motivational strategy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My motivation for good grades was avoiding a beating.
That seemed like a pretty effective motivational strategy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253777</id>
	<title>Rewards aren't new....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244489100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This just in, kids do better when rewarded. Full report at yesterday o'clock.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This just in , kids do better when rewarded .
Full report at yesterday o'clock .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This just in, kids do better when rewarded.
Full report at yesterday o'clock.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255539</id>
	<title>The Profit Motive</title>
	<author>Merovign</author>
	<datestamp>1244452260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I see, so doing what works is "corrupting," doing what fails isn't.</p><p>Kind of the core of why academia has been on a downhill slope for decades.</p><p>As someone once said, "the word "academic" is a well-known synonym for the word "meaningless.""</p><p>That being said, I don't think that, for the most part, the public school system can be fixed with "band-aids."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I see , so doing what works is " corrupting , " doing what fails is n't.Kind of the core of why academia has been on a downhill slope for decades.As someone once said , " the word " academic " is a well-known synonym for the word " meaningless .
" " That being said , I do n't think that , for the most part , the public school system can be fixed with " band-aids .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I see, so doing what works is "corrupting," doing what fails isn't.Kind of the core of why academia has been on a downhill slope for decades.As someone once said, "the word "academic" is a well-known synonym for the word "meaningless.
""That being said, I don't think that, for the most part, the public school system can be fixed with "band-aids.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254397</id>
	<title>Re:Combine this with school choice</title>
	<author>alphaseven</author>
	<datestamp>1244491620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Before long children will be asking to transfer to the schools that pay the best.</p></div><p>Or that have the dumbest students (easier competition).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Before long children will be asking to transfer to the schools that pay the best.Or that have the dumbest students ( easier competition ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Before long children will be asking to transfer to the schools that pay the best.Or that have the dumbest students (easier competition).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253667</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253923</id>
	<title>Skip The School (Home School)</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244489640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can pay my own kids.  No need to pass through the "education" system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I can pay my own kids .
No need to pass through the " education " system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can pay my own kids.
No need to pass through the "education" system.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253853</id>
	<title>Re:Oh man...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244489400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Someone OWNS your ass.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Someone OWNS your ass .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Someone OWNS your ass.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253643</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28259929</id>
	<title>Question of Motivation</title>
	<author>PingPongBoy</author>
	<datestamp>1244472180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Clearly we know the value of education, but the acid test in this debate is to find the motivation for kids to learn.</p><p>This is the age where knowledge on the Internet is slowly coming into being. It is almost free to have enough knowledge to earn a degree at the home computer. So in a few years, we might finally have the answer. In this near future, there will be no excuse for literate able-bodied people to say "I can't get an education". Average ten year olds should be able to think "if I work hard, I can earn my freedom from relative poverty and hardship," and by so doing know enough to earn a degree by the time they're 15.</p><p>If a few bucks can boost a few scores, how about the promise of quick independence and potentially unlimited earnings???</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Clearly we know the value of education , but the acid test in this debate is to find the motivation for kids to learn.This is the age where knowledge on the Internet is slowly coming into being .
It is almost free to have enough knowledge to earn a degree at the home computer .
So in a few years , we might finally have the answer .
In this near future , there will be no excuse for literate able-bodied people to say " I ca n't get an education " .
Average ten year olds should be able to think " if I work hard , I can earn my freedom from relative poverty and hardship , " and by so doing know enough to earn a degree by the time they 're 15.If a few bucks can boost a few scores , how about the promise of quick independence and potentially unlimited earnings ? ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Clearly we know the value of education, but the acid test in this debate is to find the motivation for kids to learn.This is the age where knowledge on the Internet is slowly coming into being.
It is almost free to have enough knowledge to earn a degree at the home computer.
So in a few years, we might finally have the answer.
In this near future, there will be no excuse for literate able-bodied people to say "I can't get an education".
Average ten year olds should be able to think "if I work hard, I can earn my freedom from relative poverty and hardship," and by so doing know enough to earn a degree by the time they're 15.If a few bucks can boost a few scores, how about the promise of quick independence and potentially unlimited earnings??
?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28267055</id>
	<title>I have a serious problem</title>
	<author>Kevin108</author>
	<datestamp>1244567520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>With the possibility of public schools handing out tax dollars to students.  As it is, I don't go to public school or have any kids and don't think I have any business paying for it.  As it is, most public schools spend over $10,000 a year on each student.  For around half that, you could give a child a quality private education.  As with most things, if you want to pay more and get worse results, get the government involved.</htmltext>
<tokenext>With the possibility of public schools handing out tax dollars to students .
As it is , I do n't go to public school or have any kids and do n't think I have any business paying for it .
As it is , most public schools spend over $ 10,000 a year on each student .
For around half that , you could give a child a quality private education .
As with most things , if you want to pay more and get worse results , get the government involved .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>With the possibility of public schools handing out tax dollars to students.
As it is, I don't go to public school or have any kids and don't think I have any business paying for it.
As it is, most public schools spend over $10,000 a year on each student.
For around half that, you could give a child a quality private education.
As with most things, if you want to pay more and get worse results, get the government involved.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254465</id>
	<title>In other news</title>
	<author>BigJClark</author>
	<datestamp>1244491980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><br><nobr> <wbr></nobr>..rain is wet..  So, you're telling me that an incentive will motivate someone to achieve more?  golly.</htmltext>
<tokenext>..rain is wet.. So , you 're telling me that an incentive will motivate someone to achieve more ?
golly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> ..rain is wet..  So, you're telling me that an incentive will motivate someone to achieve more?
golly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254545</id>
	<title>He's bored out of his mind</title>
	<author>mpapet</author>
	<datestamp>1244492280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>He is now a junior in high school and gets mainly Fs, except in music which he enjoys so he gets an A, usually. He consistently scores at or above the 97th percentile in the numerous standardized tests that kids take these days, including the PSAT. He will soon start taking the SAT and will presumably do well enough.</i></p><p>Your child may be better off being home schooled.  The slow pace and innanity of the environment he is in is supremely demotivating.  College is almost exactly the same thing, so he won't do well there either.  Unless, maybe he goes to a music college.   This is pretty typical of gifted kids who don't fit into the square peg definition of excellence offered by most schools.</p><p>It's your job as a parent to keep trying different things..  If he's that interested in music, he needs real teachers, real discipline to become a competent musician.  In exchange for him doing some homework, get him a good music teacher.</p><p>Don't give up now</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He is now a junior in high school and gets mainly Fs , except in music which he enjoys so he gets an A , usually .
He consistently scores at or above the 97th percentile in the numerous standardized tests that kids take these days , including the PSAT .
He will soon start taking the SAT and will presumably do well enough.Your child may be better off being home schooled .
The slow pace and innanity of the environment he is in is supremely demotivating .
College is almost exactly the same thing , so he wo n't do well there either .
Unless , maybe he goes to a music college .
This is pretty typical of gifted kids who do n't fit into the square peg definition of excellence offered by most schools.It 's your job as a parent to keep trying different things.. If he 's that interested in music , he needs real teachers , real discipline to become a competent musician .
In exchange for him doing some homework , get him a good music teacher.Do n't give up now</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He is now a junior in high school and gets mainly Fs, except in music which he enjoys so he gets an A, usually.
He consistently scores at or above the 97th percentile in the numerous standardized tests that kids take these days, including the PSAT.
He will soon start taking the SAT and will presumably do well enough.Your child may be better off being home schooled.
The slow pace and innanity of the environment he is in is supremely demotivating.
College is almost exactly the same thing, so he won't do well there either.
Unless, maybe he goes to a music college.
This is pretty typical of gifted kids who don't fit into the square peg definition of excellence offered by most schools.It's your job as a parent to keep trying different things..  If he's that interested in music, he needs real teachers, real discipline to become a competent musician.
In exchange for him doing some homework, get him a good music teacher.Don't give up now</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253847</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255639</id>
	<title>Re:yah</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244452560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>"Critics, who are unaware that most college students don't become liberal arts majors..."</p></div><p>I think I speak on behalf of liberal arts majors everywhere when I, my BBA, my BFA, and MFA tell you to go fuck yourself, you sanctimonious ass. Who do you think creates all that media that you pirate by the terabyte, engineers? The fact that my passion and education comes from the abstract doesn't mean that you have a foot-long cock just because you can use a slide rule.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Critics , who are unaware that most college students do n't become liberal arts majors... " I think I speak on behalf of liberal arts majors everywhere when I , my BBA , my BFA , and MFA tell you to go fuck yourself , you sanctimonious ass .
Who do you think creates all that media that you pirate by the terabyte , engineers ?
The fact that my passion and education comes from the abstract does n't mean that you have a foot-long cock just because you can use a slide rule .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Critics, who are unaware that most college students don't become liberal arts majors..."I think I speak on behalf of liberal arts majors everywhere when I, my BBA, my BFA, and MFA tell you to go fuck yourself, you sanctimonious ass.
Who do you think creates all that media that you pirate by the terabyte, engineers?
The fact that my passion and education comes from the abstract doesn't mean that you have a foot-long cock just because you can use a slide rule.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253745</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254795</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>nasor</author>
	<datestamp>1244493240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is only a problem if there's a significant intrinsic motivation to begin with. I don't know about you, but when I was in grade school my primary motivation was the knowledge that my parents would punish me if I performed too poorly. There were a few topics that I would probably have learned about on my own out of personal interest, but for most subjects I had no real intrinsic motivation anyway.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is only a problem if there 's a significant intrinsic motivation to begin with .
I do n't know about you , but when I was in grade school my primary motivation was the knowledge that my parents would punish me if I performed too poorly .
There were a few topics that I would probably have learned about on my own out of personal interest , but for most subjects I had no real intrinsic motivation anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is only a problem if there's a significant intrinsic motivation to begin with.
I don't know about you, but when I was in grade school my primary motivation was the knowledge that my parents would punish me if I performed too poorly.
There were a few topics that I would probably have learned about on my own out of personal interest, but for most subjects I had no real intrinsic motivation anyway.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28262543</id>
	<title>Re:Scores may go up, but I doubt comprehension is</title>
	<author>CarbonShell</author>
	<datestamp>1244580000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Paying for grades is like paying for sex. The will only do it for the money then.</p><p>In my day a *loosening of my fathers belt* really helped me to see why getting good grades is the best thing to do.<br>When that no longer worked, they gave me a feel for what it would mean to not be good in school and get a good education:<br>I had to work at a fast food place on my vacations and they stripped me of about 75\%. (as a parent now I'd say 'what? only 75\%?')<br>During my apprenticeship I also had to work on construction sites<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... in the winter.<br>Though I still sucked in school (my dyslexia was never recognized thanks to a bad school system) those did motivate me.<br>Not that I disrespect the people that are doing the jobs, but I'd rather work my arse off for acceptable pay in a cube then to do that work again.</p><p>Though if the crap hit the fan, I would have no problem doing the jobs again.</p><p>We should motivate our children to get the jobs *they* want to get. The higher your education the more possibilities you have.<br>Yes, you can still work yourself up from the bottom (I did) but it is a *lot* of work and you have to prove yourself time and time again.<br>Not to mention that, while the glory of the 'self made man' might be high, the numbers tend to be horribly low.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Paying for grades is like paying for sex .
The will only do it for the money then.In my day a * loosening of my fathers belt * really helped me to see why getting good grades is the best thing to do.When that no longer worked , they gave me a feel for what it would mean to not be good in school and get a good education : I had to work at a fast food place on my vacations and they stripped me of about 75 \ % .
( as a parent now I 'd say 'what ?
only 75 \ % ?
' ) During my apprenticeship I also had to work on construction sites ... in the winter.Though I still sucked in school ( my dyslexia was never recognized thanks to a bad school system ) those did motivate me.Not that I disrespect the people that are doing the jobs , but I 'd rather work my arse off for acceptable pay in a cube then to do that work again.Though if the crap hit the fan , I would have no problem doing the jobs again.We should motivate our children to get the jobs * they * want to get .
The higher your education the more possibilities you have.Yes , you can still work yourself up from the bottom ( I did ) but it is a * lot * of work and you have to prove yourself time and time again.Not to mention that , while the glory of the 'self made man ' might be high , the numbers tend to be horribly low .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Paying for grades is like paying for sex.
The will only do it for the money then.In my day a *loosening of my fathers belt* really helped me to see why getting good grades is the best thing to do.When that no longer worked, they gave me a feel for what it would mean to not be good in school and get a good education:I had to work at a fast food place on my vacations and they stripped me of about 75\%.
(as a parent now I'd say 'what?
only 75\%?
')During my apprenticeship I also had to work on construction sites ... in the winter.Though I still sucked in school (my dyslexia was never recognized thanks to a bad school system) those did motivate me.Not that I disrespect the people that are doing the jobs, but I'd rather work my arse off for acceptable pay in a cube then to do that work again.Though if the crap hit the fan, I would have no problem doing the jobs again.We should motivate our children to get the jobs *they* want to get.
The higher your education the more possibilities you have.Yes, you can still work yourself up from the bottom (I did) but it is a *lot* of work and you have to prove yourself time and time again.Not to mention that, while the glory of the 'self made man' might be high, the numbers tend to be horribly low.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254099</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253947</id>
	<title>Look in the mirror</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244489700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is the society we have built. Consumerism, greed, status seeking etc.</p><p>"We have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is the society we have built .
Consumerism , greed , status seeking etc .
" We have met the enemy and he is us .
" -- Pogo</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is the society we have built.
Consumerism, greed, status seeking etc.
"We have met the enemy and he is us.
" -- Pogo</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253933</id>
	<title>Re:The socialization of America continues . . .</title>
	<author>Jonas Buyl</author>
	<datestamp>1244489640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>This must be part of Obama's Grand Vision for America. After all, as Slashdotters, we all know that:</p><p>

In Soviet Russia, Schools PAY YOU!!!!</p></div><p>Shhhht, don't give Fox News any ideas.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This must be part of Obama 's Grand Vision for America .
After all , as Slashdotters , we all know that : In Soviet Russia , Schools PAY YOU ! ! !
! Shhhht , do n't give Fox News any ideas .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This must be part of Obama's Grand Vision for America.
After all, as Slashdotters, we all know that:

In Soviet Russia, Schools PAY YOU!!!
!Shhhht, don't give Fox News any ideas.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253731</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28258215</id>
	<title>Re:Look in the mirror</title>
	<author>MindlessAutomata</author>
	<datestamp>1244461920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>More left-wing nonsense.  Consumerism, greed and status seeking are intrinsic parts to human nature or at least flow from them.  I'll bet you think if we manage to just create the right society mankind will be perfected, right?  Then we can all dance in fields of flowers.</p><p>Not going to happen.  Consumerism, greed, and status seeking are always going to be around.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>More left-wing nonsense .
Consumerism , greed and status seeking are intrinsic parts to human nature or at least flow from them .
I 'll bet you think if we manage to just create the right society mankind will be perfected , right ?
Then we can all dance in fields of flowers.Not going to happen .
Consumerism , greed , and status seeking are always going to be around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>More left-wing nonsense.
Consumerism, greed and status seeking are intrinsic parts to human nature or at least flow from them.
I'll bet you think if we manage to just create the right society mankind will be perfected, right?
Then we can all dance in fields of flowers.Not going to happen.
Consumerism, greed, and status seeking are always going to be around.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253947</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255341</id>
	<title>Re:Who'da thunk?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244451660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree totally with your thought.  The days of teaching kids how to fail - then recover from failure are over.  T-Ball games with no score?  No need to worry about passing a test, we'll give you as many tries as needed?  What happens to these kids when they hit the "real world", and I don't mean what they show on MTV?  I got fired because they wouldn't let me succeed...</p><p>It is sad that these kids coming up need to be paid.  What ever happened to paying your dues?  We are failing our children by making life easier, and not holding them accountable for their actions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree totally with your thought .
The days of teaching kids how to fail - then recover from failure are over .
T-Ball games with no score ?
No need to worry about passing a test , we 'll give you as many tries as needed ?
What happens to these kids when they hit the " real world " , and I do n't mean what they show on MTV ?
I got fired because they would n't let me succeed...It is sad that these kids coming up need to be paid .
What ever happened to paying your dues ?
We are failing our children by making life easier , and not holding them accountable for their actions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree totally with your thought.
The days of teaching kids how to fail - then recover from failure are over.
T-Ball games with no score?
No need to worry about passing a test, we'll give you as many tries as needed?
What happens to these kids when they hit the "real world", and I don't mean what they show on MTV?
I got fired because they wouldn't let me succeed...It is sad that these kids coming up need to be paid.
What ever happened to paying your dues?
We are failing our children by making life easier, and not holding them accountable for their actions.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253739</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254737</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>zmooc</author>
	<datestamp>1244493060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is the main reason many adults don't read books for fun anymore, even when they were totally addicted before having to read book for grades...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is the main reason many adults do n't read books for fun anymore , even when they were totally addicted before having to read book for grades.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is the main reason many adults don't read books for fun anymore, even when they were totally addicted before having to read book for grades...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256003</id>
	<title>It didn't work for me...</title>
	<author>pboechat</author>
	<datestamp>1244453700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>It was a practice on the Catholic high school I studied (Santo Antonio Maria Zaccaria - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil) to pay an amount of money equal the value of the monthly fee for the three "best qualified" students in the classroom. But it didn't help most 'average people' to get best grades, only the ones that already studied very hard cared to be on the ranks<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</htmltext>
<tokenext>It was a practice on the Catholic high school I studied ( Santo Antonio Maria Zaccaria - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil ) to pay an amount of money equal the value of the monthly fee for the three " best qualified " students in the classroom .
But it did n't help most 'average people ' to get best grades , only the ones that already studied very hard cared to be on the ranks ; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It was a practice on the Catholic high school I studied (Santo Antonio Maria Zaccaria - Rio de Janeiro - Brazil) to pay an amount of money equal the value of the monthly fee for the three "best qualified" students in the classroom.
But it didn't help most 'average people' to get best grades, only the ones that already studied very hard cared to be on the ranks ;)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254257</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>radtea</author>
	<datestamp>1244491020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>They would tell me that it was expected of me to get good grades, and I didn't deserve a reward for doing what I was supposed to be doing anyways.</i></p><p>This still seems wrong to me.  I didn't tell my kids they were expected to get good grades.  I told them that KNOWLEDGE WAS VALUABLE, gave them lots of evidence that this is the case, and let them figure out the rest themselves.  Although now they are in high school they know that grades have taken on a new significance because they are used as inputs to the university entrance process, they've internalized the value system that it isn't the grades that are important, it's the knowledge, the skills, the breadth of mind.</p><p>Paying for grades is a logical outcome for a society that values neither education nor knowledge, but is interested in presenting itself as a meritocratic plutocracy.  Grades are valued because they will get you into "good" schools, which are not the ones that teach the most but which generate the social connections and job opportunities to put you on the road to financial success.  The value of eduction never enters into the equation.</p><p>Societies get what they reward.  Teaching kids that the only thing worth pursing is money results in a society where the only way to get kids to do anything is to pay them.  That's a bad thing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They would tell me that it was expected of me to get good grades , and I did n't deserve a reward for doing what I was supposed to be doing anyways.This still seems wrong to me .
I did n't tell my kids they were expected to get good grades .
I told them that KNOWLEDGE WAS VALUABLE , gave them lots of evidence that this is the case , and let them figure out the rest themselves .
Although now they are in high school they know that grades have taken on a new significance because they are used as inputs to the university entrance process , they 've internalized the value system that it is n't the grades that are important , it 's the knowledge , the skills , the breadth of mind.Paying for grades is a logical outcome for a society that values neither education nor knowledge , but is interested in presenting itself as a meritocratic plutocracy .
Grades are valued because they will get you into " good " schools , which are not the ones that teach the most but which generate the social connections and job opportunities to put you on the road to financial success .
The value of eduction never enters into the equation.Societies get what they reward .
Teaching kids that the only thing worth pursing is money results in a society where the only way to get kids to do anything is to pay them .
That 's a bad thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They would tell me that it was expected of me to get good grades, and I didn't deserve a reward for doing what I was supposed to be doing anyways.This still seems wrong to me.
I didn't tell my kids they were expected to get good grades.
I told them that KNOWLEDGE WAS VALUABLE, gave them lots of evidence that this is the case, and let them figure out the rest themselves.
Although now they are in high school they know that grades have taken on a new significance because they are used as inputs to the university entrance process, they've internalized the value system that it isn't the grades that are important, it's the knowledge, the skills, the breadth of mind.Paying for grades is a logical outcome for a society that values neither education nor knowledge, but is interested in presenting itself as a meritocratic plutocracy.
Grades are valued because they will get you into "good" schools, which are not the ones that teach the most but which generate the social connections and job opportunities to put you on the road to financial success.
The value of eduction never enters into the equation.Societies get what they reward.
Teaching kids that the only thing worth pursing is money results in a society where the only way to get kids to do anything is to pay them.
That's a bad thing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255727</id>
	<title>Re:Scores may go up, but I doubt comprehension is</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244452860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do you actually have a science, computer science or engineering degree? Except for the few who a) go into teaching or b) are the top 2\% and land a reasearch posting ~90\% of your university course load is completely unused on graduation. Of the 48 terms of class (4yrs @ 6 courses/term, 2 terms/yr), I think 6 (programming*2, comp architecture, sw engineering, digital communications * 2) apply to my top-paying telecom programming job.</p><p>Those who went into hw design (even more salary than programming) only use 4 courses...</p><p>The biggest waste was the 8 terms of advanced calculus. Unless you're doing primary research into magnetic field theory, knowing how to derive the LaPlace and other transforms is something you cram for, get your A, then gleefully drown in a several tankards of post-graduation partying.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do you actually have a science , computer science or engineering degree ?
Except for the few who a ) go into teaching or b ) are the top 2 \ % and land a reasearch posting ~ 90 \ % of your university course load is completely unused on graduation .
Of the 48 terms of class ( 4yrs @ 6 courses/term , 2 terms/yr ) , I think 6 ( programming * 2 , comp architecture , sw engineering , digital communications * 2 ) apply to my top-paying telecom programming job.Those who went into hw design ( even more salary than programming ) only use 4 courses...The biggest waste was the 8 terms of advanced calculus .
Unless you 're doing primary research into magnetic field theory , knowing how to derive the LaPlace and other transforms is something you cram for , get your A , then gleefully drown in a several tankards of post-graduation partying .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do you actually have a science, computer science or engineering degree?
Except for the few who a) go into teaching or b) are the top 2\% and land a reasearch posting ~90\% of your university course load is completely unused on graduation.
Of the 48 terms of class (4yrs @ 6 courses/term, 2 terms/yr), I think 6 (programming*2, comp architecture, sw engineering, digital communications * 2) apply to my top-paying telecom programming job.Those who went into hw design (even more salary than programming) only use 4 courses...The biggest waste was the 8 terms of advanced calculus.
Unless you're doing primary research into magnetic field theory, knowing how to derive the LaPlace and other transforms is something you cram for, get your A, then gleefully drown in a several tankards of post-graduation partying.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253717</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255219</id>
	<title>Thinking not required for good grades.</title>
	<author>nausea\_malvarma</author>
	<datestamp>1244494560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
I remember taking my first English test in high school. We'd all read this book, and were to be tested on it. I read the book cover to cover, and felt like I really understood it. Not just what the book said, but what it meant. I felt like I picked up on the theme of the book, and the message the author had embedded in the story. Nobody knew that book better than me.
</p><p>
But when I get the test, not one question required me to discuss the book intelligently. It was a multiple choice test, where each question asked you to recall some obscure detail in the book. Example: What was the name of so-and-so's aunt. How many times did whatshername etc. The questions did not test whether you understood the book - just that you read it and memorized parts of it.
</p><p>
And that's the problem with schools and testing - you can pass a test without even understanding the material. Just memorize the details without exploring real concepts and ideas. And thus, it's no wonder this program works. Kids don't need to think in order to pass school, they just need to devote unreasonable amounts of time memorizing facts. And of course, nobody wants to do that sort of tedious studying, unless they are paid for it.
</p><p>
Our school system was set up to prepare students to work in mechanical, fragmentary jobs. They teach kids to memorize and spew out information on command. They teach kids to obey authority, and walk in lines. They teach kids to sit in rows and eat lunch at scheduled times when the bell rings. It's a great way to prepare kids to work in textile mills. Sadly, we have a different type of economy now, where those skills no longer apply.
</p><p>
 We must teach kids the intrinsic value of learning. We must teach them to think for themselves, and question the world around them. We must reward creativity, and encourage imaginations to run wild. The students who learn those lessons will succeed in todays information economy. Paying students small wages to do trivial work will only prepare them for jobs where they are paid small wages to do trivial work: McDonalds.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I remember taking my first English test in high school .
We 'd all read this book , and were to be tested on it .
I read the book cover to cover , and felt like I really understood it .
Not just what the book said , but what it meant .
I felt like I picked up on the theme of the book , and the message the author had embedded in the story .
Nobody knew that book better than me .
But when I get the test , not one question required me to discuss the book intelligently .
It was a multiple choice test , where each question asked you to recall some obscure detail in the book .
Example : What was the name of so-and-so 's aunt .
How many times did whatshername etc .
The questions did not test whether you understood the book - just that you read it and memorized parts of it .
And that 's the problem with schools and testing - you can pass a test without even understanding the material .
Just memorize the details without exploring real concepts and ideas .
And thus , it 's no wonder this program works .
Kids do n't need to think in order to pass school , they just need to devote unreasonable amounts of time memorizing facts .
And of course , nobody wants to do that sort of tedious studying , unless they are paid for it .
Our school system was set up to prepare students to work in mechanical , fragmentary jobs .
They teach kids to memorize and spew out information on command .
They teach kids to obey authority , and walk in lines .
They teach kids to sit in rows and eat lunch at scheduled times when the bell rings .
It 's a great way to prepare kids to work in textile mills .
Sadly , we have a different type of economy now , where those skills no longer apply .
We must teach kids the intrinsic value of learning .
We must teach them to think for themselves , and question the world around them .
We must reward creativity , and encourage imaginations to run wild .
The students who learn those lessons will succeed in todays information economy .
Paying students small wages to do trivial work will only prepare them for jobs where they are paid small wages to do trivial work : McDonalds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
I remember taking my first English test in high school.
We'd all read this book, and were to be tested on it.
I read the book cover to cover, and felt like I really understood it.
Not just what the book said, but what it meant.
I felt like I picked up on the theme of the book, and the message the author had embedded in the story.
Nobody knew that book better than me.
But when I get the test, not one question required me to discuss the book intelligently.
It was a multiple choice test, where each question asked you to recall some obscure detail in the book.
Example: What was the name of so-and-so's aunt.
How many times did whatshername etc.
The questions did not test whether you understood the book - just that you read it and memorized parts of it.
And that's the problem with schools and testing - you can pass a test without even understanding the material.
Just memorize the details without exploring real concepts and ideas.
And thus, it's no wonder this program works.
Kids don't need to think in order to pass school, they just need to devote unreasonable amounts of time memorizing facts.
And of course, nobody wants to do that sort of tedious studying, unless they are paid for it.
Our school system was set up to prepare students to work in mechanical, fragmentary jobs.
They teach kids to memorize and spew out information on command.
They teach kids to obey authority, and walk in lines.
They teach kids to sit in rows and eat lunch at scheduled times when the bell rings.
It's a great way to prepare kids to work in textile mills.
Sadly, we have a different type of economy now, where those skills no longer apply.
We must teach kids the intrinsic value of learning.
We must teach them to think for themselves, and question the world around them.
We must reward creativity, and encourage imaginations to run wild.
The students who learn those lessons will succeed in todays information economy.
Paying students small wages to do trivial work will only prepare them for jobs where they are paid small wages to do trivial work: McDonalds.
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256501</id>
	<title>No surprise here</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244455320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not surprised. Oddly enough, some of the highest grades I got in my entire educational career were [1] in grad school, when I was paying my own way through, and [2] in taking continuing education classes required to keep my teacher certification--in which case I not only would have had to pay for the class if I had failed, but I could also have lost my teacher certificate.</p><p>As a former high school sysadmin, I was responsible for printing and distributing mid-quarter progress reports from our Basmati-based grading system. It was a pretty simple Access form that would sort the reports by fourth-period teacher.</p><p>Sure enough, one day after school, I find sitting on a table in the library: tape, scissors, scraps of paper, and copies of progress reports. A student had managed to cut grades off another progress report, tape them in place, copy it, and fool both her guidance counselor and her church, which was paying $5 per 'A' on progress reports.</p><p>I gave all the evidence to the assistant principal for curriculum. I think there's a special place in hell for people like this.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not surprised .
Oddly enough , some of the highest grades I got in my entire educational career were [ 1 ] in grad school , when I was paying my own way through , and [ 2 ] in taking continuing education classes required to keep my teacher certification--in which case I not only would have had to pay for the class if I had failed , but I could also have lost my teacher certificate.As a former high school sysadmin , I was responsible for printing and distributing mid-quarter progress reports from our Basmati-based grading system .
It was a pretty simple Access form that would sort the reports by fourth-period teacher.Sure enough , one day after school , I find sitting on a table in the library : tape , scissors , scraps of paper , and copies of progress reports .
A student had managed to cut grades off another progress report , tape them in place , copy it , and fool both her guidance counselor and her church , which was paying $ 5 per 'A ' on progress reports.I gave all the evidence to the assistant principal for curriculum .
I think there 's a special place in hell for people like this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not surprised.
Oddly enough, some of the highest grades I got in my entire educational career were [1] in grad school, when I was paying my own way through, and [2] in taking continuing education classes required to keep my teacher certification--in which case I not only would have had to pay for the class if I had failed, but I could also have lost my teacher certificate.As a former high school sysadmin, I was responsible for printing and distributing mid-quarter progress reports from our Basmati-based grading system.
It was a pretty simple Access form that would sort the reports by fourth-period teacher.Sure enough, one day after school, I find sitting on a table in the library: tape, scissors, scraps of paper, and copies of progress reports.
A student had managed to cut grades off another progress report, tape them in place, copy it, and fool both her guidance counselor and her church, which was paying $5 per 'A' on progress reports.I gave all the evidence to the assistant principal for curriculum.
I think there's a special place in hell for people like this.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28265995</id>
	<title>Re:learning for education's sake?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244563620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The root of the problem is exactly this - kids don't understand the value of education.  They'll figure it out on their own eventually - when they can't get a decent job and find themselves left behind compared to many of their peers - but by that time it's probably too late (although there is the option of adult education programs).</p><p>Education seems to have become obsessed with teaching - how do we do it, how do we measure it, how do we reward/punish teachers - instead of focusing on the students.  Why don't we ask questions like how do we make school more fun for students?  How do we get them involved?  How can we help them understand the value of knowledge?  How do we make this relevant to their lives?</p><p>Paying for grades is an example of trying to address the student side of the equation, and that's good, but I think it treats the symptoms without addressing the underlying core.  Actually, it's worse than that - it encourages kids to only see value in relation to a payout.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The root of the problem is exactly this - kids do n't understand the value of education .
They 'll figure it out on their own eventually - when they ca n't get a decent job and find themselves left behind compared to many of their peers - but by that time it 's probably too late ( although there is the option of adult education programs ) .Education seems to have become obsessed with teaching - how do we do it , how do we measure it , how do we reward/punish teachers - instead of focusing on the students .
Why do n't we ask questions like how do we make school more fun for students ?
How do we get them involved ?
How can we help them understand the value of knowledge ?
How do we make this relevant to their lives ? Paying for grades is an example of trying to address the student side of the equation , and that 's good , but I think it treats the symptoms without addressing the underlying core .
Actually , it 's worse than that - it encourages kids to only see value in relation to a payout .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The root of the problem is exactly this - kids don't understand the value of education.
They'll figure it out on their own eventually - when they can't get a decent job and find themselves left behind compared to many of their peers - but by that time it's probably too late (although there is the option of adult education programs).Education seems to have become obsessed with teaching - how do we do it, how do we measure it, how do we reward/punish teachers - instead of focusing on the students.
Why don't we ask questions like how do we make school more fun for students?
How do we get them involved?
How can we help them understand the value of knowledge?
How do we make this relevant to their lives?Paying for grades is an example of trying to address the student side of the equation, and that's good, but I think it treats the symptoms without addressing the underlying core.
Actually, it's worse than that - it encourages kids to only see value in relation to a payout.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254757</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254721</id>
	<title>Re:Education's sake?</title>
	<author>jimbobborg</author>
	<datestamp>1244493060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Amateur.  I spent 10 glorious years in 3 different schools, changed my major  5 times, and still haven't graduated!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Amateur .
I spent 10 glorious years in 3 different schools , changed my major 5 times , and still have n't graduated !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Amateur.
I spent 10 glorious years in 3 different schools, changed my major  5 times, and still haven't graduated!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253907</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28258647</id>
	<title>Re:learning for education's sake?</title>
	<author>Macrat</author>
	<datestamp>1244464080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That's what an after school job is for.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's what an after school job is for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's what an after school job is for.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254757</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257469</id>
	<title>Re:House Hold Decisions</title>
	<author>PitaBred</author>
	<datestamp>1244458980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It should be. But the households where these kids come from have drug-addicted parents who sponge off of welfare. The cultures they come from actively eschew education, they think you're some kind of traitor or white-man wannabe if you try to get smart. Arguing about what "should" be is simply an intellectual exercise. This is trying to deal with what "is".</htmltext>
<tokenext>It should be .
But the households where these kids come from have drug-addicted parents who sponge off of welfare .
The cultures they come from actively eschew education , they think you 're some kind of traitor or white-man wannabe if you try to get smart .
Arguing about what " should " be is simply an intellectual exercise .
This is trying to deal with what " is " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It should be.
But the households where these kids come from have drug-addicted parents who sponge off of welfare.
The cultures they come from actively eschew education, they think you're some kind of traitor or white-man wannabe if you try to get smart.
Arguing about what "should" be is simply an intellectual exercise.
This is trying to deal with what "is".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253903</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255375</id>
	<title>Umm....</title>
	<author>tthomas48</author>
	<datestamp>1244451780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nice liberal arts crack. Actually liberal arts is generally one of the biggest majors at most universities. I looked up my alma mater - University of Texas - most popular are Biology, Business, and Liberal Arts.</p><p>I think barring school specialization, you'll always see Liberal Arts at the top. There are still a large number of people who are after an education and realize that college is not a vocational school.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nice liberal arts crack .
Actually liberal arts is generally one of the biggest majors at most universities .
I looked up my alma mater - University of Texas - most popular are Biology , Business , and Liberal Arts.I think barring school specialization , you 'll always see Liberal Arts at the top .
There are still a large number of people who are after an education and realize that college is not a vocational school .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nice liberal arts crack.
Actually liberal arts is generally one of the biggest majors at most universities.
I looked up my alma mater - University of Texas - most popular are Biology, Business, and Liberal Arts.I think barring school specialization, you'll always see Liberal Arts at the top.
There are still a large number of people who are after an education and realize that college is not a vocational school.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254585</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>pejyel</author>
	<datestamp>1244492460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Mod parent <b>+6, Insightful</b>
Seriously, there needs to be a way to mod extra-posts above the +5, Funny or the +5, Clever-thought-rated-insightful-for-lack-of-a-better-moderation</htmltext>
<tokenext>Mod parent + 6 , Insightful Seriously , there needs to be a way to mod extra-posts above the + 5 , Funny or the + 5 , Clever-thought-rated-insightful-for-lack-of-a-better-moderation</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mod parent +6, Insightful
Seriously, there needs to be a way to mod extra-posts above the +5, Funny or the +5, Clever-thought-rated-insightful-for-lack-of-a-better-moderation</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254401</id>
	<title>They're not learning</title>
	<author>thetoadwarrior</author>
	<datestamp>1244491620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There is a huge difference between actually learning and preparing children for tests. Getting kids to pass a test might make them look smart but they'll lack the necessary skills to be anything other than someone who can parrot information.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is a huge difference between actually learning and preparing children for tests .
Getting kids to pass a test might make them look smart but they 'll lack the necessary skills to be anything other than someone who can parrot information .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is a huge difference between actually learning and preparing children for tests.
Getting kids to pass a test might make them look smart but they'll lack the necessary skills to be anything other than someone who can parrot information.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254187</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244490720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Exactly.  My boss is the same way.  He expects the best of me, and pays the same no matter how well I do.  It should be noted that I work for the government.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly .
My boss is the same way .
He expects the best of me , and pays the same no matter how well I do .
It should be noted that I work for the government .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly.
My boss is the same way.
He expects the best of me, and pays the same no matter how well I do.
It should be noted that I work for the government.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253669</id>
	<title>Capitalists of Tommorrow</title>
	<author>Fractal Dice</author>
	<datestamp>1244488740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>So<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... what's the typical kickback to the markers?</htmltext>
<tokenext>So ... what 's the typical kickback to the markers ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So ... what's the typical kickback to the markers?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254439</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244491860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Fully agreed, but until adults change the world so that it's not all about being paid, it's a bit unfair to teach them anything else.</p><p>It's interesting how adults want to raise kids with ideal world views but won't do squat to make the world fit the view or even spend a few moments considering how (and if) it might be accomplished.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Fully agreed , but until adults change the world so that it 's not all about being paid , it 's a bit unfair to teach them anything else.It 's interesting how adults want to raise kids with ideal world views but wo n't do squat to make the world fit the view or even spend a few moments considering how ( and if ) it might be accomplished .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fully agreed, but until adults change the world so that it's not all about being paid, it's a bit unfair to teach them anything else.It's interesting how adults want to raise kids with ideal world views but won't do squat to make the world fit the view or even spend a few moments considering how (and if) it might be accomplished.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255225</id>
	<title>Re:Education's sake?</title>
	<author>Cheeko</author>
	<datestamp>1244494620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>grants, debt, scholarships, and summer work for spending cash.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>grants , debt , scholarships , and summer work for spending cash .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>grants, debt, scholarships, and summer work for spending cash.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254577</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253643</id>
	<title>Oh man...</title>
	<author>nametaken</author>
	<datestamp>1244488620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Someone OWES my ass.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Someone OWES my ass .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Someone OWES my ass.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255191</id>
	<title>Re:Scores may go up, but I doubt comprehension is</title>
	<author>lessthan</author>
	<datestamp>1244494560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Where does one get passion? Is it ambition that drives us to perform well? Why do we struggle for more than food to eat and a roof over our heads?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Where does one get passion ?
Is it ambition that drives us to perform well ?
Why do we struggle for more than food to eat and a roof over our heads ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where does one get passion?
Is it ambition that drives us to perform well?
Why do we struggle for more than food to eat and a roof over our heads?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253717</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28263801</id>
	<title>Re:and on the other end...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244552220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Kids aren't "getting smarter"</p><p>Wait what?</p><p>So lets say kid takes an Iq test, gets 100, then goes to school for two years getting paid to perform, and takes it again with the result 110, you would claim "He's not smarter, he got paid to do it!!!!"<br>What the hell kind of logic is that. For fucks sake, whether you get paid to work out, or just work out you end up equaly buff, these are physical quantaties not some hokus pokus karma that can only be optained by those willing and pure.</p><p>And Pay the goddamned kids if that makes them smarter, we spend godly sums anyways to pay every friking adult who comes into contact with them in the hopes that their knowladge rubs off.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Kids are n't " getting smarter " Wait what ? So lets say kid takes an Iq test , gets 100 , then goes to school for two years getting paid to perform , and takes it again with the result 110 , you would claim " He 's not smarter , he got paid to do it ! ! ! !
" What the hell kind of logic is that .
For fucks sake , whether you get paid to work out , or just work out you end up equaly buff , these are physical quantaties not some hokus pokus karma that can only be optained by those willing and pure.And Pay the goddamned kids if that makes them smarter , we spend godly sums anyways to pay every friking adult who comes into contact with them in the hopes that their knowladge rubs off .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Kids aren't "getting smarter"Wait what?So lets say kid takes an Iq test, gets 100, then goes to school for two years getting paid to perform, and takes it again with the result 110, you would claim "He's not smarter, he got paid to do it!!!!
"What the hell kind of logic is that.
For fucks sake, whether you get paid to work out, or just work out you end up equaly buff, these are physical quantaties not some hokus pokus karma that can only be optained by those willing and pure.And Pay the goddamned kids if that makes them smarter, we spend godly sums anyways to pay every friking adult who comes into contact with them in the hopes that their knowladge rubs off.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254209</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253961</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244489760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I wonder though if there is a intrinsic motivation in the first place.  At least in the school system that I grew up in (VA public schools), the standardized tests are pushed so hard that it feels like you are being force fed information with no benefit to you.  Even classes in subject that I enjoyed were difficult because there was no time for extra activities or experiments, it was all memorization and repetition.

I think the way schools are setup today in the US (or at least in Virgina) removes any form of intrinsic reward what so ever because of how stressful and draining the experience is.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I wonder though if there is a intrinsic motivation in the first place .
At least in the school system that I grew up in ( VA public schools ) , the standardized tests are pushed so hard that it feels like you are being force fed information with no benefit to you .
Even classes in subject that I enjoyed were difficult because there was no time for extra activities or experiments , it was all memorization and repetition .
I think the way schools are setup today in the US ( or at least in Virgina ) removes any form of intrinsic reward what so ever because of how stressful and draining the experience is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wonder though if there is a intrinsic motivation in the first place.
At least in the school system that I grew up in (VA public schools), the standardized tests are pushed so hard that it feels like you are being force fed information with no benefit to you.
Even classes in subject that I enjoyed were difficult because there was no time for extra activities or experiments, it was all memorization and repetition.
I think the way schools are setup today in the US (or at least in Virgina) removes any form of intrinsic reward what so ever because of how stressful and draining the experience is.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255223</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>composer777</author>
	<datestamp>1244494620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, but they're not training you to be slave.  They are supposed to be training you to be someone that gets paid, so that he can take care of himself in the real world.  Therefore, paying you early, even if it's "what you're supposed to do", is the right thing.  My parents didn't pay me either, but not because they really knew what they were doing or had any good reason for it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , but they 're not training you to be slave .
They are supposed to be training you to be someone that gets paid , so that he can take care of himself in the real world .
Therefore , paying you early , even if it 's " what you 're supposed to do " , is the right thing .
My parents did n't pay me either , but not because they really knew what they were doing or had any good reason for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, but they're not training you to be slave.
They are supposed to be training you to be someone that gets paid, so that he can take care of himself in the real world.
Therefore, paying you early, even if it's "what you're supposed to do", is the right thing.
My parents didn't pay me either, but not because they really knew what they were doing or had any good reason for it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28267855</id>
	<title>Re:and on the other end...</title>
	<author>Hythlodaeus</author>
	<datestamp>1244570520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>if the sponsoring organizations can afford to pay each kid $250-500<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... why aren't they giving it to inner-city schools in the first place?</p></div><p>I believe the point of the study is that the missing piece for these "disadvantaged" students is not opportunity or resources but <i>motivation</i>.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>if the sponsoring organizations can afford to pay each kid $ 250-500 ... why are n't they giving it to inner-city schools in the first place ? I believe the point of the study is that the missing piece for these " disadvantaged " students is not opportunity or resources but motivation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if the sponsoring organizations can afford to pay each kid $250-500 ... why aren't they giving it to inner-city schools in the first place?I believe the point of the study is that the missing piece for these "disadvantaged" students is not opportunity or resources but motivation.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254209</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254527</id>
	<title>Fixed</title>
	<author>aaandre</author>
	<datestamp>1244492160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Grading paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone.</p><p>Fixed that for you.</p><p>Studies show that conditioning human beings with treats (and threats) does not instill values, but results in modified behavior that goes away if the pattern of rewards is stopped. Seems to work with dogs, tho.</p><p>The current education system is highly oppressive and does not cater to the children's needs for activity, play and natural way of learning. Let's not call mandatory children camps schools.</p><p>For more info check <a href="http://alfiekohn.com/articles.htm" title="alfiekohn.com">Alfie Kohn's work</a> [alfiekohn.com] and <a href="http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/ken\_robinson\_says\_schools\_kill\_creativity.html" title="ted.com">Sir Ken Robinson's TED talk on schools and creativity</a> [ted.com].</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Grading paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education 's sake alone.Fixed that for you.Studies show that conditioning human beings with treats ( and threats ) does not instill values , but results in modified behavior that goes away if the pattern of rewards is stopped .
Seems to work with dogs , tho.The current education system is highly oppressive and does not cater to the children 's needs for activity , play and natural way of learning .
Let 's not call mandatory children camps schools.For more info check Alfie Kohn 's work [ alfiekohn.com ] and Sir Ken Robinson 's TED talk on schools and creativity [ ted.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Grading paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone.Fixed that for you.Studies show that conditioning human beings with treats (and threats) does not instill values, but results in modified behavior that goes away if the pattern of rewards is stopped.
Seems to work with dogs, tho.The current education system is highly oppressive and does not cater to the children's needs for activity, play and natural way of learning.
Let's not call mandatory children camps schools.For more info check Alfie Kohn's work [alfiekohn.com] and Sir Ken Robinson's TED talk on schools and creativity [ted.com].</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256871</id>
	<title>Don't need just knowledge</title>
	<author>Demonantis</author>
	<datestamp>1244456580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Once you are working most jobs look at previous experience and how well rounded of an individual you are. A 4.0 gpa doesn't help when you are leading a group and those are the jobs that pay really well.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Once you are working most jobs look at previous experience and how well rounded of an individual you are .
A 4.0 gpa does n't help when you are leading a group and those are the jobs that pay really well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Once you are working most jobs look at previous experience and how well rounded of an individual you are.
A 4.0 gpa doesn't help when you are leading a group and those are the jobs that pay really well.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28263169</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>Sky Cry</author>
	<datestamp>1244544420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>They would tell me that it was expected of me to get good grades, and I didn't deserve a reward for doing what I was supposed to be doing anyways.</p></div><p>That's a huge problem right there. When you only use negative motivation (i.e., you do something wrong - you get something taken away from you), you reinforce the "if I don't do anything, I can't do anything wrong" behavior. Positive motivation is important to make kids actually try to succeed, instead of just trying to avoid failure.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>They would tell me that it was expected of me to get good grades , and I did n't deserve a reward for doing what I was supposed to be doing anyways.That 's a huge problem right there .
When you only use negative motivation ( i.e. , you do something wrong - you get something taken away from you ) , you reinforce the " if I do n't do anything , I ca n't do anything wrong " behavior .
Positive motivation is important to make kids actually try to succeed , instead of just trying to avoid failure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They would tell me that it was expected of me to get good grades, and I didn't deserve a reward for doing what I was supposed to be doing anyways.That's a huge problem right there.
When you only use negative motivation (i.e., you do something wrong - you get something taken away from you), you reinforce the "if I don't do anything, I can't do anything wrong" behavior.
Positive motivation is important to make kids actually try to succeed, instead of just trying to avoid failure.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254603</id>
	<title>who fucking cares</title>
	<author>circletimessquare</author>
	<datestamp>1244492580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>as long as they learn something</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>as long as they learn something</tokentext>
<sentencetext>as long as they learn something</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254209</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28258941</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>dogmatixpsych</author>
	<datestamp>1244466000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I just have a couple clarifications. Most of that research was with young children (8 and under). Further, the strongest deleterious effect occurs when children receive extrinsic rewards for things they already enjoy (e.g., if a child likes painting, once they receive an extrinsic reward like money when they paint, they will like painting less than they did before). I don't know if this research applies to older kids; I'm not aware of any research with older children.<br> <br>

[Note: I am a psychology major (almost done with a PhD) so I have at least a little authority on this matter].</htmltext>
<tokenext>I just have a couple clarifications .
Most of that research was with young children ( 8 and under ) .
Further , the strongest deleterious effect occurs when children receive extrinsic rewards for things they already enjoy ( e.g. , if a child likes painting , once they receive an extrinsic reward like money when they paint , they will like painting less than they did before ) .
I do n't know if this research applies to older kids ; I 'm not aware of any research with older children .
[ Note : I am a psychology major ( almost done with a PhD ) so I have at least a little authority on this matter ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just have a couple clarifications.
Most of that research was with young children (8 and under).
Further, the strongest deleterious effect occurs when children receive extrinsic rewards for things they already enjoy (e.g., if a child likes painting, once they receive an extrinsic reward like money when they paint, they will like painting less than they did before).
I don't know if this research applies to older kids; I'm not aware of any research with older children.
[Note: I am a psychology major (almost done with a PhD) so I have at least a little authority on this matter].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254871</id>
	<title>What has the "All About the Money" mentality done?</title>
	<author>Doug52392</author>
	<datestamp>1244493480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Let's review what the "all that matters is money" mentality has accomplished on Wall Street:<br>* Bernard Madoff<br>* Adjustable Rate Mortgages - Who cares if they will never be able to pay their home loans, more money for us!</p><p>So now we're even moving this lesson into the classroom? If you thought Bernard Madoff was bad, wait until the working class is made up of students who were taught in school that all that matters is their paychecks and incentives - not hard work or achievement.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Let 's review what the " all that matters is money " mentality has accomplished on Wall Street : * Bernard Madoff * Adjustable Rate Mortgages - Who cares if they will never be able to pay their home loans , more money for us ! So now we 're even moving this lesson into the classroom ?
If you thought Bernard Madoff was bad , wait until the working class is made up of students who were taught in school that all that matters is their paychecks and incentives - not hard work or achievement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let's review what the "all that matters is money" mentality has accomplished on Wall Street:* Bernard Madoff* Adjustable Rate Mortgages - Who cares if they will never be able to pay their home loans, more money for us!So now we're even moving this lesson into the classroom?
If you thought Bernard Madoff was bad, wait until the working class is made up of students who were taught in school that all that matters is their paychecks and incentives - not hard work or achievement.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256371</id>
	<title>Wait a second...</title>
	<author>Sj0</author>
	<datestamp>1244454840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here's the problem I see with this.</p><p>The school I went to had 1000 students.</p><p>Assume this works great and grades go up.</p><p>It would suddenly be in the school's best financial interest to reduce the grades of top students to prevent the pay-out of 500,000/yr.</p><p>This is something parents can do, but don't ask the school boards to pay for it, because it'll harm them. Do you know how many teachers $500,000 will buy?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's the problem I see with this.The school I went to had 1000 students.Assume this works great and grades go up.It would suddenly be in the school 's best financial interest to reduce the grades of top students to prevent the pay-out of 500,000/yr.This is something parents can do , but do n't ask the school boards to pay for it , because it 'll harm them .
Do you know how many teachers $ 500,000 will buy ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's the problem I see with this.The school I went to had 1000 students.Assume this works great and grades go up.It would suddenly be in the school's best financial interest to reduce the grades of top students to prevent the pay-out of 500,000/yr.This is something parents can do, but don't ask the school boards to pay for it, because it'll harm them.
Do you know how many teachers $500,000 will buy?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28258003</id>
	<title>Re:The value of our education...</title>
	<author>shentino</author>
	<datestamp>1244460960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is that the price of an education, or the price to have the privilege of going through the rote machine to get a special piece of paper that says you are favored?</p><p>I don't think degrees are any more than pieces of paper that your potential boss will see as making you more desirable.</p><p>Intrinsics mean squat.  When your career is on the line, the only thing that matters is what your boss will say.  In short, you are at the mercy of everyone else's prejudices and biases, so best to fall in line and not make waves.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is that the price of an education , or the price to have the privilege of going through the rote machine to get a special piece of paper that says you are favored ? I do n't think degrees are any more than pieces of paper that your potential boss will see as making you more desirable.Intrinsics mean squat .
When your career is on the line , the only thing that matters is what your boss will say .
In short , you are at the mercy of everyone else 's prejudices and biases , so best to fall in line and not make waves .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is that the price of an education, or the price to have the privilege of going through the rote machine to get a special piece of paper that says you are favored?I don't think degrees are any more than pieces of paper that your potential boss will see as making you more desirable.Intrinsics mean squat.
When your career is on the line, the only thing that matters is what your boss will say.
In short, you are at the mercy of everyone else's prejudices and biases, so best to fall in line and not make waves.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254415</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257417</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>mlebrun42</author>
	<datestamp>1244458800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why not simply replace or supplement the extrinsic motivation with intrinsic motivation as the child develops? Simultaneously make the rewards more difficult to attain while maintaining the baseline reward if necessary...this tactic does not necessarily have to result in the classic giving a mouse a cookie path.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why not simply replace or supplement the extrinsic motivation with intrinsic motivation as the child develops ?
Simultaneously make the rewards more difficult to attain while maintaining the baseline reward if necessary...this tactic does not necessarily have to result in the classic giving a mouse a cookie path .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why not simply replace or supplement the extrinsic motivation with intrinsic motivation as the child develops?
Simultaneously make the rewards more difficult to attain while maintaining the baseline reward if necessary...this tactic does not necessarily have to result in the classic giving a mouse a cookie path.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254203</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>Alexandra Erenhart</author>
	<datestamp>1244490780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd mod you up if I didn't have posts in this topic already.

There are things in life you should be doing good no matter if you get a reward or not. Getting decent grades at school (specially if your parents are paying for it, is a way to let them know you actually care about their efforts), is one of them. There are so many things that go wrong when you start rewarding things that just shouldn't. It would be like paying people to be good. How wrong is that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd mod you up if I did n't have posts in this topic already .
There are things in life you should be doing good no matter if you get a reward or not .
Getting decent grades at school ( specially if your parents are paying for it , is a way to let them know you actually care about their efforts ) , is one of them .
There are so many things that go wrong when you start rewarding things that just should n't .
It would be like paying people to be good .
How wrong is that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd mod you up if I didn't have posts in this topic already.
There are things in life you should be doing good no matter if you get a reward or not.
Getting decent grades at school (specially if your parents are paying for it, is a way to let them know you actually care about their efforts), is one of them.
There are so many things that go wrong when you start rewarding things that just shouldn't.
It would be like paying people to be good.
How wrong is that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28262895</id>
	<title>Re:Not a surprise</title>
	<author>jonaskoelker</author>
	<datestamp>1244540940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>A big problem with kids (high-school included) is that they don't understand the value of an education.</p></div><p>A big problem with education is that it doesn't make the value of itself understandable to kids.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>A big problem with kids ( high-school included ) is that they do n't understand the value of an education.A big problem with education is that it does n't make the value of itself understandable to kids .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A big problem with kids (high-school included) is that they don't understand the value of an education.A big problem with education is that it doesn't make the value of itself understandable to kids.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28258359</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>MindlessAutomata</author>
	<datestamp>1244462580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Children sitting still in classrooms, however, is never intrinsically pleasurable, no matter who the student is.</p><p>Additionally, while you are correct that ceasing rewards can stop the behavior, it's also true that associating a stimulus with a reward can cause the stimulus to become an intrinsic motivator.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Children sitting still in classrooms , however , is never intrinsically pleasurable , no matter who the student is.Additionally , while you are correct that ceasing rewards can stop the behavior , it 's also true that associating a stimulus with a reward can cause the stimulus to become an intrinsic motivator .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Children sitting still in classrooms, however, is never intrinsically pleasurable, no matter who the student is.Additionally, while you are correct that ceasing rewards can stop the behavior, it's also true that associating a stimulus with a reward can cause the stimulus to become an intrinsic motivator.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256311</id>
	<title>Re:Compete with drugs</title>
	<author>Alarindris</author>
	<datestamp>1244454600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>$500/wk &gt; $500/semester</htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 500/wk &gt; $ 500/semester</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$500/wk &gt; $500/semester</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253973</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255709</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244452800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Anecdotal evidence has shown the exact opposite.  My parents started paying me for my grades when I was in 3rd grade.  If I remember correctly, they paid $5 per A and it would double if I managed a 4.0.  At the time this was my number one motivation for working towards good grades, by the time I was in 6th or 7th grade, the money was no longer what was motivating me but it was more like habit.</p><p>I think of it like training a dog.  When you start, you give the dog treats every time it does what you want, eventually the dog will do what you want simply for your praise and the treats are no longer a necessity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Anecdotal evidence has shown the exact opposite .
My parents started paying me for my grades when I was in 3rd grade .
If I remember correctly , they paid $ 5 per A and it would double if I managed a 4.0 .
At the time this was my number one motivation for working towards good grades , by the time I was in 6th or 7th grade , the money was no longer what was motivating me but it was more like habit.I think of it like training a dog .
When you start , you give the dog treats every time it does what you want , eventually the dog will do what you want simply for your praise and the treats are no longer a necessity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anecdotal evidence has shown the exact opposite.
My parents started paying me for my grades when I was in 3rd grade.
If I remember correctly, they paid $5 per A and it would double if I managed a 4.0.
At the time this was my number one motivation for working towards good grades, by the time I was in 6th or 7th grade, the money was no longer what was motivating me but it was more like habit.I think of it like training a dog.
When you start, you give the dog treats every time it does what you want, eventually the dog will do what you want simply for your praise and the treats are no longer a necessity.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</id>
	<title>Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244488800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is dangerous: studies have shown that when you give extrinsic motivation for something, the intrinsic motivation tends to die away.</p><p>The paper I'm thinking of first observed that children in a class had lots of fun painting for no reason. Then, they started to extrinsically reward the children for painting, and the children started to paint a lot more. Then the rewards stopped, and so did the painting.</p><p>As the link points out, there is some debate about the truth of what I just said.</p><p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification\_effect</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is dangerous : studies have shown that when you give extrinsic motivation for something , the intrinsic motivation tends to die away.The paper I 'm thinking of first observed that children in a class had lots of fun painting for no reason .
Then , they started to extrinsically reward the children for painting , and the children started to paint a lot more .
Then the rewards stopped , and so did the painting.As the link points out , there is some debate about the truth of what I just said.http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification \ _effect</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is dangerous: studies have shown that when you give extrinsic motivation for something, the intrinsic motivation tends to die away.The paper I'm thinking of first observed that children in a class had lots of fun painting for no reason.
Then, they started to extrinsically reward the children for painting, and the children started to paint a lot more.
Then the rewards stopped, and so did the painting.As the link points out, there is some debate about the truth of what I just said.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification\_effect</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256551</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>mckniffen</author>
	<datestamp>1244455440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>did you think that way when you are in grade school?</htmltext>
<tokenext>did you think that way when you are in grade school ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>did you think that way when you are in grade school?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254203</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253991</id>
	<title>Re:Oh man...</title>
	<author>timster</author>
	<datestamp>1244489880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You forgot to subtract the amount of that debt which is owed to US citizens.  In other words, our "average" citizen may owe $37,255 via the collective government obligation, but that "average" citizen also holds most of that liability in US government bonds, either individually or collectively via Social Security trust/etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You forgot to subtract the amount of that debt which is owed to US citizens .
In other words , our " average " citizen may owe $ 37,255 via the collective government obligation , but that " average " citizen also holds most of that liability in US government bonds , either individually or collectively via Social Security trust/etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You forgot to subtract the amount of that debt which is owed to US citizens.
In other words, our "average" citizen may owe $37,255 via the collective government obligation, but that "average" citizen also holds most of that liability in US government bonds, either individually or collectively via Social Security trust/etc.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253765</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254559</id>
	<title>Re:Don't kid yourelves</title>
	<author>Reziac</author>
	<datestamp>1244492340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What's he going to do when he goes to work and finds an everyday job is just as much "torture"?? He won't have learned any *endurance*. You can't very well tell your boss that you know all the week's work so he should just pay you now and let you go home.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What 's he going to do when he goes to work and finds an everyday job is just as much " torture " ? ?
He wo n't have learned any * endurance * .
You ca n't very well tell your boss that you know all the week 's work so he should just pay you now and let you go home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What's he going to do when he goes to work and finds an everyday job is just as much "torture"??
He won't have learned any *endurance*.
You can't very well tell your boss that you know all the week's work so he should just pay you now and let you go home.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254423</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254329</id>
	<title>Huh?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244491380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So, I got good grades in high school and got no financial compensation.  (PLUS, I worked a part time job.)  These kids get paid for good grades, which *I* must pay for with my tax dollars.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So , I got good grades in high school and got no financial compensation .
( PLUS , I worked a part time job .
) These kids get paid for good grades , which * I * must pay for with my tax dollars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So, I got good grades in high school and got no financial compensation.
(PLUS, I worked a part time job.
)  These kids get paid for good grades, which *I* must pay for with my tax dollars.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253763</id>
	<title>Is this really news?</title>
	<author>obstaclesgone</author>
	<datestamp>1244488980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"And in other news, adults produce more stuff when they're paid for it."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" And in other news , adults produce more stuff when they 're paid for it .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"And in other news, adults produce more stuff when they're paid for it.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257529</id>
	<title>Re:short-sightedness.</title>
	<author>PitaBred</author>
	<datestamp>1244459160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes. Why don't those stupid 8 year old kids think more than ten years ahead! So what if they can only consciously remember 5 or so years back, and are still emotionally and socially developing, and are hardly able to wait a month for Christmas, much less 10 years for some vague "well-paying job" or something. That's no excuse!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes .
Why do n't those stupid 8 year old kids think more than ten years ahead !
So what if they can only consciously remember 5 or so years back , and are still emotionally and socially developing , and are hardly able to wait a month for Christmas , much less 10 years for some vague " well-paying job " or something .
That 's no excuse !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes.
Why don't those stupid 8 year old kids think more than ten years ahead!
So what if they can only consciously remember 5 or so years back, and are still emotionally and socially developing, and are hardly able to wait a month for Christmas, much less 10 years for some vague "well-paying job" or something.
That's no excuse!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253927</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253717</id>
	<title>Scores may go up, but I doubt comprehension is</title>
	<author>antifoidulus</author>
	<datestamp>1244488860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>All this does is bribe kids to cram as much information in as possible right before the exam, and I would be willing to bet most forget most of it in a week.  It shows that kids have no passion for the material if the adults have to resort to bribes to get them to study.  I've seen firsthand that people without passion for science/engineering, who only go into for the money or because their parents force them to, tend to make pretty shitty engineers and scientists...</htmltext>
<tokenext>All this does is bribe kids to cram as much information in as possible right before the exam , and I would be willing to bet most forget most of it in a week .
It shows that kids have no passion for the material if the adults have to resort to bribes to get them to study .
I 've seen firsthand that people without passion for science/engineering , who only go into for the money or because their parents force them to , tend to make pretty shitty engineers and scientists.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All this does is bribe kids to cram as much information in as possible right before the exam, and I would be willing to bet most forget most of it in a week.
It shows that kids have no passion for the material if the adults have to resort to bribes to get them to study.
I've seen firsthand that people without passion for science/engineering, who only go into for the money or because their parents force them to, tend to make pretty shitty engineers and scientists...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254221</id>
	<title>My parents did the same for me</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244490900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>My parents paid me
$10 for As  (I got $20s/class if I got straight As)
$5 for Bs
-$5 for Cs
-$10 for Ds
and if I got a F, it didn't matter what my other grades were.  I got nothing.

After they started doing that, I was getting straight As.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My parents paid me $ 10 for As ( I got $ 20s/class if I got straight As ) $ 5 for Bs - $ 5 for Cs - $ 10 for Ds and if I got a F , it did n't matter what my other grades were .
I got nothing .
After they started doing that , I was getting straight As .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My parents paid me
$10 for As  (I got $20s/class if I got straight As)
$5 for Bs
-$5 for Cs
-$10 for Ds
and if I got a F, it didn't matter what my other grades were.
I got nothing.
After they started doing that, I was getting straight As.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253787</id>
	<title>Motivation...</title>
	<author>MobyDisk</author>
	<datestamp>1244489100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>In America, it is cool to get bad grades.  I guess this means that if kids realize that hard work==success==money, that they do better.

Now, how can we use this to eliminate the counterculture where it is good to be stupid?  When the kids stop getting paid, do they drop down to their original performance levels?  How much do they need to be paid in order to perform better?  We need a lifelong study of these kids to see what impact this had.<p><div class="quote"><p>39.6 percentage points higher than last year, when the kids were in third grade.</p></div><p>Does this mean that kids are 39.6\% smarter than we thought they were?  They just needed a reason to show it?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In America , it is cool to get bad grades .
I guess this means that if kids realize that hard work = = success = = money , that they do better .
Now , how can we use this to eliminate the counterculture where it is good to be stupid ?
When the kids stop getting paid , do they drop down to their original performance levels ?
How much do they need to be paid in order to perform better ?
We need a lifelong study of these kids to see what impact this had.39.6 percentage points higher than last year , when the kids were in third grade.Does this mean that kids are 39.6 \ % smarter than we thought they were ?
They just needed a reason to show it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In America, it is cool to get bad grades.
I guess this means that if kids realize that hard work==success==money, that they do better.
Now, how can we use this to eliminate the counterculture where it is good to be stupid?
When the kids stop getting paid, do they drop down to their original performance levels?
How much do they need to be paid in order to perform better?
We need a lifelong study of these kids to see what impact this had.39.6 percentage points higher than last year, when the kids were in third grade.Does this mean that kids are 39.6\% smarter than we thought they were?
They just needed a reason to show it?
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253799</id>
	<title>Re:Oh man...</title>
	<author>Cornflake917</author>
	<datestamp>1244489160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thanks for not telling us why people would owe your ass, or any part of your body for that matter.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thanks for not telling us why people would owe your ass , or any part of your body for that matter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thanks for not telling us why people would owe your ass, or any part of your body for that matter.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253643</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254393</id>
	<title>Re:Oh man...</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1244491620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Be careful with your terminology there! While cash is cash, I'd rather not have someone cram it up my ASS.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Be careful with your terminology there !
While cash is cash , I 'd rather not have someone cram it up my ASS .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Be careful with your terminology there!
While cash is cash, I'd rather not have someone cram it up my ASS.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253643</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256745</id>
	<title>Re:parents?</title>
	<author>Serra</author>
	<datestamp>1244456100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I have to wonder if the parents became more involved with their kids once money was brought into the picture.</p><p>I think another study needs to be done to see if there is a way to encourage parents to be good parents and if that affects kids' scores</p></div><p>Good thought.  What about paying the parents if the their kid gets good grades?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have to wonder if the parents became more involved with their kids once money was brought into the picture.I think another study needs to be done to see if there is a way to encourage parents to be good parents and if that affects kids ' scoresGood thought .
What about paying the parents if the their kid gets good grades ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have to wonder if the parents became more involved with their kids once money was brought into the picture.I think another study needs to be done to see if there is a way to encourage parents to be good parents and if that affects kids' scoresGood thought.
What about paying the parents if the their kid gets good grades?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254363</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254827</id>
	<title>Too late</title>
	<author>gregarei</author>
	<datestamp>1244493360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Given that the current system is based on rewarding students for education (albeit with grades, not money), changing what the reward is wouldnt make a difference.  The Overjustification effect has already taken place.

How many of your friends in school did their homework 'Just for the sake of learning'?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Given that the current system is based on rewarding students for education ( albeit with grades , not money ) , changing what the reward is wouldnt make a difference .
The Overjustification effect has already taken place .
How many of your friends in school did their homework 'Just for the sake of learning ' ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Given that the current system is based on rewarding students for education (albeit with grades, not money), changing what the reward is wouldnt make a difference.
The Overjustification effect has already taken place.
How many of your friends in school did their homework 'Just for the sake of learning'?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253649</id>
	<title>Dang...</title>
	<author>scubamage</author>
	<datestamp>1244488620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Glad it wasn't me. If I had that much cash back then it would have all been spent on pot. Smoking that much reefer would have to be bad for a developing mind... I might have become a physics major or something!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Glad it was n't me .
If I had that much cash back then it would have all been spent on pot .
Smoking that much reefer would have to be bad for a developing mind... I might have become a physics major or something !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Glad it wasn't me.
If I had that much cash back then it would have all been spent on pot.
Smoking that much reefer would have to be bad for a developing mind... I might have become a physics major or something!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255113</id>
	<title>education for the sake of education</title>
	<author>n30na</author>
	<datestamp>1244494320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You expect a grade schooler to care about education for the sake of education?
<br> <br>
Unless you have a much higher opinion of the us public school system than I do, grade school is pretty boring, and you don't learn much for how much time you put in.
Also, more importantly, grades and learning are very different things.  I got terrible grades because I hated homework, yet I still got a good bit out of many of my classes.  In high school, i got bad grades in most of my AP classes, yet come time for AP exams I still got 3s, 4s, and 5s, and I feel like I learned a good bit.  I was interested in the content, I just wasnt motivated to do what I needed to do to get decent grades.<br> <br>

However, during my last year of high school (which just ended), I held a job as a programmer, which I got because I was well qualified, even if I was young.  So far, I'm paid well and this, along with the fact that things i do have bearing on real life, motivates me greatly, so i really work to get things done, and keep my job.  In grade school, what happens if you're lazy?  You get yelled at, maybe held there longer even.  There is no perceived reward, and at that age few kids see the value of the education, and frankly I don't blame them.  Our school system is boring.  Giving kids some motivation to learn is a good step towards getting kids learning and our education system back on track.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You expect a grade schooler to care about education for the sake of education ?
Unless you have a much higher opinion of the us public school system than I do , grade school is pretty boring , and you do n't learn much for how much time you put in .
Also , more importantly , grades and learning are very different things .
I got terrible grades because I hated homework , yet I still got a good bit out of many of my classes .
In high school , i got bad grades in most of my AP classes , yet come time for AP exams I still got 3s , 4s , and 5s , and I feel like I learned a good bit .
I was interested in the content , I just wasnt motivated to do what I needed to do to get decent grades .
However , during my last year of high school ( which just ended ) , I held a job as a programmer , which I got because I was well qualified , even if I was young .
So far , I 'm paid well and this , along with the fact that things i do have bearing on real life , motivates me greatly , so i really work to get things done , and keep my job .
In grade school , what happens if you 're lazy ?
You get yelled at , maybe held there longer even .
There is no perceived reward , and at that age few kids see the value of the education , and frankly I do n't blame them .
Our school system is boring .
Giving kids some motivation to learn is a good step towards getting kids learning and our education system back on track .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You expect a grade schooler to care about education for the sake of education?
Unless you have a much higher opinion of the us public school system than I do, grade school is pretty boring, and you don't learn much for how much time you put in.
Also, more importantly, grades and learning are very different things.
I got terrible grades because I hated homework, yet I still got a good bit out of many of my classes.
In high school, i got bad grades in most of my AP classes, yet come time for AP exams I still got 3s, 4s, and 5s, and I feel like I learned a good bit.
I was interested in the content, I just wasnt motivated to do what I needed to do to get decent grades.
However, during my last year of high school (which just ended), I held a job as a programmer, which I got because I was well qualified, even if I was young.
So far, I'm paid well and this, along with the fact that things i do have bearing on real life, motivates me greatly, so i really work to get things done, and keep my job.
In grade school, what happens if you're lazy?
You get yelled at, maybe held there longer even.
There is no perceived reward, and at that age few kids see the value of the education, and frankly I don't blame them.
Our school system is boring.
Giving kids some motivation to learn is a good step towards getting kids learning and our education system back on track.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255093</id>
	<title>Re:Don't kid yourelves</title>
	<author>sexybomber</author>
	<datestamp>1244494260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Have him take the GED (from your description, he'll pass easily) and either apply to college or get a job. Clearly, school is torture for him, and totally unnecessary to his further development, so why are you, as a loving parent, forcing him to stay in school?</p></div></blockquote><p>

Do they let you take the GED to escape early?  I thought you were stuck there until/unless you're 18 and emancipated.  Shit, if I'd known I could have sprung myself from the hellhole that was high school, I would have dropped that shit in a heartbeat.
<br> <br>
Is there a loophole with homeschooling?  If so, I wholeheartedly suggest to the GP to exercise it.  I'll bet a substantial sum of money that the kid is simply bored out of his skull.  If he can knock out the SAT, ACT, and GED, scoring at the 97th percentile on each, AND is ostensibly "homeschooled", that'll look really good on a college application, if only for incoming class diversity.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Have him take the GED ( from your description , he 'll pass easily ) and either apply to college or get a job .
Clearly , school is torture for him , and totally unnecessary to his further development , so why are you , as a loving parent , forcing him to stay in school ?
Do they let you take the GED to escape early ?
I thought you were stuck there until/unless you 're 18 and emancipated .
Shit , if I 'd known I could have sprung myself from the hellhole that was high school , I would have dropped that shit in a heartbeat .
Is there a loophole with homeschooling ?
If so , I wholeheartedly suggest to the GP to exercise it .
I 'll bet a substantial sum of money that the kid is simply bored out of his skull .
If he can knock out the SAT , ACT , and GED , scoring at the 97th percentile on each , AND is ostensibly " homeschooled " , that 'll look really good on a college application , if only for incoming class diversity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have him take the GED (from your description, he'll pass easily) and either apply to college or get a job.
Clearly, school is torture for him, and totally unnecessary to his further development, so why are you, as a loving parent, forcing him to stay in school?
Do they let you take the GED to escape early?
I thought you were stuck there until/unless you're 18 and emancipated.
Shit, if I'd known I could have sprung myself from the hellhole that was high school, I would have dropped that shit in a heartbeat.
Is there a loophole with homeschooling?
If so, I wholeheartedly suggest to the GP to exercise it.
I'll bet a substantial sum of money that the kid is simply bored out of his skull.
If he can knock out the SAT, ACT, and GED, scoring at the 97th percentile on each, AND is ostensibly "homeschooled", that'll look really good on a college application, if only for incoming class diversity.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254423</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254959</id>
	<title>Oh please</title>
	<author>TheGrapeApe</author>
	<datestamp>1244493780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Again and again...why does *no one* understand the simple principle of CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION?

The teachers may have inflated the kids grades...what if you were one of those teachers?  And the low-income kids really needed that $500?  I would do the same thing;  Give everyone an A, whether they earned it or not...would not want to be responsible for them starving...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Again and again...why does * no one * understand the simple principle of CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION ?
The teachers may have inflated the kids grades...what if you were one of those teachers ?
And the low-income kids really needed that $ 500 ?
I would do the same thing ; Give everyone an A , whether they earned it or not...would not want to be responsible for them starving.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Again and again...why does *no one* understand the simple principle of CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION?
The teachers may have inflated the kids grades...what if you were one of those teachers?
And the low-income kids really needed that $500?
I would do the same thing;  Give everyone an A, whether they earned it or not...would not want to be responsible for them starving...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255791</id>
	<title>Spoiled</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244453040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Spoiled brats. Some people would kill to get an education of any kind.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Spoiled brats .
Some people would kill to get an education of any kind .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Spoiled brats.
Some people would kill to get an education of any kind.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255035</id>
	<title>Re:and on the other end...</title>
	<author>jambarama</author>
	<datestamp>1244494080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Also, if the sponsoring organizations can afford to pay each kid $250-500, where the heck are they getting those funds, and why aren't they giving it to inner-city schools in the first place?</p></div></blockquote><p>

Because throwing money at a problem doesn't automatically solve it.  With all the bitching and moaning you hear about how much money wealthy suburban schools have to spend, study after study has shown that a long- or short-term influx of cash into a lousy school doesn't improve results.  Ditto for transplanting students from lousy schools to wealthy schools - the students just don't improve that much.  Money isn't the problem here, it is culture.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Also , if the sponsoring organizations can afford to pay each kid $ 250-500 , where the heck are they getting those funds , and why are n't they giving it to inner-city schools in the first place ?
Because throwing money at a problem does n't automatically solve it .
With all the bitching and moaning you hear about how much money wealthy suburban schools have to spend , study after study has shown that a long- or short-term influx of cash into a lousy school does n't improve results .
Ditto for transplanting students from lousy schools to wealthy schools - the students just do n't improve that much .
Money is n't the problem here , it is culture .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Also, if the sponsoring organizations can afford to pay each kid $250-500, where the heck are they getting those funds, and why aren't they giving it to inner-city schools in the first place?
Because throwing money at a problem doesn't automatically solve it.
With all the bitching and moaning you hear about how much money wealthy suburban schools have to spend, study after study has shown that a long- or short-term influx of cash into a lousy school doesn't improve results.
Ditto for transplanting students from lousy schools to wealthy schools - the students just don't improve that much.
Money isn't the problem here, it is culture.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254209</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254733</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>interkin3tic</author>
	<datestamp>1244493060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>This is dangerous: studies have shown that when you give extrinsic motivation for something, the intrinsic motivation tends to die away.</p></div><p>Makes you wonder if this will kill students' interest in what they're learning about later in life, leading to more lawyers and MBAs and less scientists.</p><p>Then again, science classes in high school and grade school now are already pretty shoddy as far as evoking a sense of interest in students, that might be something we need to fix independantly of making students pay more attention in class.  I saw a video in which the late Stephen Jay Gould said something along the lines of "The best thing I can say about my science classes in public education is that they didn't completely kill my interest in science."</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is dangerous : studies have shown that when you give extrinsic motivation for something , the intrinsic motivation tends to die away.Makes you wonder if this will kill students ' interest in what they 're learning about later in life , leading to more lawyers and MBAs and less scientists.Then again , science classes in high school and grade school now are already pretty shoddy as far as evoking a sense of interest in students , that might be something we need to fix independantly of making students pay more attention in class .
I saw a video in which the late Stephen Jay Gould said something along the lines of " The best thing I can say about my science classes in public education is that they did n't completely kill my interest in science .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is dangerous: studies have shown that when you give extrinsic motivation for something, the intrinsic motivation tends to die away.Makes you wonder if this will kill students' interest in what they're learning about later in life, leading to more lawyers and MBAs and less scientists.Then again, science classes in high school and grade school now are already pretty shoddy as far as evoking a sense of interest in students, that might be something we need to fix independantly of making students pay more attention in class.
I saw a video in which the late Stephen Jay Gould said something along the lines of "The best thing I can say about my science classes in public education is that they didn't completely kill my interest in science.
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253883</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>vertinox</author>
	<datestamp>1244489460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>This is dangerous: studies have shown that when you give extrinsic motivation for something, the intrinsic motivation tends to die away.</i></p><p>True, but isn't this how the United States civilization works?</p><p>You stop paying someone to do something and then they stop doing that something? You know like what the RIAA and MPAA says about artists? If they don't get paid money, then no art will ever be made?</p><p>Maybe I'm being a bit facetious here but considering how the "grown up" world works in regards to doing something only out of the benefit of being paid, we might as teach our kids early there is no such thing as charity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is dangerous : studies have shown that when you give extrinsic motivation for something , the intrinsic motivation tends to die away.True , but is n't this how the United States civilization works ? You stop paying someone to do something and then they stop doing that something ?
You know like what the RIAA and MPAA says about artists ?
If they do n't get paid money , then no art will ever be made ? Maybe I 'm being a bit facetious here but considering how the " grown up " world works in regards to doing something only out of the benefit of being paid , we might as teach our kids early there is no such thing as charity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is dangerous: studies have shown that when you give extrinsic motivation for something, the intrinsic motivation tends to die away.True, but isn't this how the United States civilization works?You stop paying someone to do something and then they stop doing that something?
You know like what the RIAA and MPAA says about artists?
If they don't get paid money, then no art will ever be made?Maybe I'm being a bit facetious here but considering how the "grown up" world works in regards to doing something only out of the benefit of being paid, we might as teach our kids early there is no such thing as charity.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253953</id>
	<title>Math skills</title>
	<author>sunking2</author>
	<datestamp>1244489700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>They can use their newfound love for math to keep track of the national debt.</htmltext>
<tokenext>They can use their newfound love for math to keep track of the national debt .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They can use their newfound love for math to keep track of the national debt.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254969</id>
	<title>Re:yah</title>
	<author>Joebert</author>
	<datestamp>1244493840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Want to learn the mechanics behind an extremely sharp blade spinning around at several thousand RPM powered by a gas motor attached to a molded steel frame with a handle that can be used to push the machine across a yard covered in monocotyledonous green plants thus trimming them to a precise height ?<br> <br>

I have one of these contraptions in the garage along with a yard full of monocotyledonous green plants out front if you feel like you want to learn something.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Want to learn the mechanics behind an extremely sharp blade spinning around at several thousand RPM powered by a gas motor attached to a molded steel frame with a handle that can be used to push the machine across a yard covered in monocotyledonous green plants thus trimming them to a precise height ?
I have one of these contraptions in the garage along with a yard full of monocotyledonous green plants out front if you feel like you want to learn something .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Want to learn the mechanics behind an extremely sharp blade spinning around at several thousand RPM powered by a gas motor attached to a molded steel frame with a handle that can be used to push the machine across a yard covered in monocotyledonous green plants thus trimming them to a precise height ?
I have one of these contraptions in the garage along with a yard full of monocotyledonous green plants out front if you feel like you want to learn something.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254353</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253813</id>
	<title>Not money but...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244489220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Pay 'em with books, toys etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Pay 'em with books , toys etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pay 'em with books, toys etc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257547</id>
	<title>Re:yah</title>
	<author>stine2469</author>
	<datestamp>1244459220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><tt>BS.&nbsp; &nbsp;I got good grades in school to prevent teachers from being able to curve grades.&nbsp; &nbsp;If I wanted to insure that no-one got any points, then I had to get a 100.<br><br>Unfortunately, after a few weeks of no curving, the teacher started to curve the grades no matter what I scored on the test...of course, a grade of 110 was satisfying too.<br></tt></htmltext>
<tokenext>BS.     I got good grades in school to prevent teachers from being able to curve grades.     If I wanted to insure that no-one got any points , then I had to get a 100.Unfortunately , after a few weeks of no curving , the teacher started to curve the grades no matter what I scored on the test...of course , a grade of 110 was satisfying too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>BS.   I got good grades in school to prevent teachers from being able to curve grades.   If I wanted to insure that no-one got any points, then I had to get a 100.Unfortunately, after a few weeks of no curving, the teacher started to curve the grades no matter what I scored on the test...of course, a grade of 110 was satisfying too.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253745</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256377</id>
	<title>Re:Scores may go up, but I doubt comprehension is</title>
	<author>mwvdlee</author>
	<datestamp>1244454900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sounds like a problem with the testing method rather than the students.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sounds like a problem with the testing method rather than the students .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sounds like a problem with the testing method rather than the students.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253717</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254757</id>
	<title>learning for education's sake?</title>
	<author>DragonTHC</author>
	<datestamp>1244493120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>WTF?</p><p>How is this worse than kids not learning in the first place?</p><p>Most kids see no value in education because they're kids.</p><p>Paying them, not only prepares them for life, it stresses the value of hard work and provides real results for that work.</p><p>Kids learn both their curriculum and that working hard provides tangible returns.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>WTF ? How is this worse than kids not learning in the first place ? Most kids see no value in education because they 're kids.Paying them , not only prepares them for life , it stresses the value of hard work and provides real results for that work.Kids learn both their curriculum and that working hard provides tangible returns .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>WTF?How is this worse than kids not learning in the first place?Most kids see no value in education because they're kids.Paying them, not only prepares them for life, it stresses the value of hard work and provides real results for that work.Kids learn both their curriculum and that working hard provides tangible returns.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28260117</id>
	<title>Harsh Reality</title>
	<author>partowel</author>
	<datestamp>1244473380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Education for education's sake?</p><p>OMG!</p><p>I don't think so.  Education = $$$.</p><p>Its already been mentioned here, so I won't go beyond that.</p><p>I wish I got paid for grades.  It would have motivated me a little more.</p><p>As for the education I received in my gov't funded high school, it was utter garbage.</p><p>But I passed, got that useless high school diploma, and moved on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Education for education 's sake ? OMG ! I do n't think so .
Education = $ $ $ .Its already been mentioned here , so I wo n't go beyond that.I wish I got paid for grades .
It would have motivated me a little more.As for the education I received in my gov't funded high school , it was utter garbage.But I passed , got that useless high school diploma , and moved on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Education for education's sake?OMG!I don't think so.
Education = $$$.Its already been mentioned here, so I won't go beyond that.I wish I got paid for grades.
It would have motivated me a little more.As for the education I received in my gov't funded high school, it was utter garbage.But I passed, got that useless high school diploma, and moved on.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254209</id>
	<title>and on the other end...</title>
	<author>meridoc</author>
	<datestamp>1244490780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This will put even more pressure on teachers to teach to the tests.  Especially in low-income areas (where these trials are being done), teachers want their students to get what they're worth.</p><p>Kids aren't "getting smarter" (by the way, what does "smart" entail?)  They're learning to play the game that is the educational system.</p><p>Also, if the <a href="http://opportunitynyc.org/education" title="opportunitynyc.org">sponsoring</a> [opportunitynyc.org] <a href="http://www.edlabs.harvard.edu/" title="harvard.edu">organizations</a> [harvard.edu] can afford to pay each kid $250-500, where the heck are they getting those funds, and why aren't they giving it to inner-city schools in the first place?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This will put even more pressure on teachers to teach to the tests .
Especially in low-income areas ( where these trials are being done ) , teachers want their students to get what they 're worth.Kids are n't " getting smarter " ( by the way , what does " smart " entail ?
) They 're learning to play the game that is the educational system.Also , if the sponsoring [ opportunitynyc.org ] organizations [ harvard.edu ] can afford to pay each kid $ 250-500 , where the heck are they getting those funds , and why are n't they giving it to inner-city schools in the first place ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This will put even more pressure on teachers to teach to the tests.
Especially in low-income areas (where these trials are being done), teachers want their students to get what they're worth.Kids aren't "getting smarter" (by the way, what does "smart" entail?
)  They're learning to play the game that is the educational system.Also, if the sponsoring [opportunitynyc.org] organizations [harvard.edu] can afford to pay each kid $250-500, where the heck are they getting those funds, and why aren't they giving it to inner-city schools in the first place?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255815</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>nbauman</author>
	<datestamp>1244453100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Here's more support for that idea from the economist Samuel Bowles:
<p>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel\_Bowles\_(economist)" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel\_Bowles\_(economist)</a> [wikipedia.org]
</p><p>
Bowles has recently studied the way that people are motivated by selfishness and the desire to maximize their own income, as compared to altruism and the desire to do a good job and be well-regarded by others. Real-world experiments show that, contrary to traditional economic theories, market incentives destroy cooperation and are less efficient than voluntary, altruistic behavior "in most cases."[3]
</p><p>
People act not only for material interests but also "to constitute themselves as dignified, autonomous, and moral individuals," he wrote.
</p><p>
Behavioral experiments suggest that "economic incentives may be counterproductive when they signal that selfishness is an appropriate response" and "undermine the moral values that lead people to act altruistically."
</p><p>
For example, "In Haifa, at six day care centers, a fine was imposed on parents who were late picking up their children at the end of the day. Parents responded to the fine by doubling the fraction of time they arrived late. When after 12 weeks the fine was revoked, their enhanced tardiness persisted unabated." This illustrates a "negative synergy" between economic incentives and moral behavior. "The fine seems to have undermined the parents' sense of ethical obligation to avoid inconveniencing the teachers and led them to think of lateness as just another commodity they could purchase."
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's more support for that idea from the economist Samuel Bowles : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel \ _Bowles \ _ ( economist ) [ wikipedia.org ] Bowles has recently studied the way that people are motivated by selfishness and the desire to maximize their own income , as compared to altruism and the desire to do a good job and be well-regarded by others .
Real-world experiments show that , contrary to traditional economic theories , market incentives destroy cooperation and are less efficient than voluntary , altruistic behavior " in most cases .
" [ 3 ] People act not only for material interests but also " to constitute themselves as dignified , autonomous , and moral individuals , " he wrote .
Behavioral experiments suggest that " economic incentives may be counterproductive when they signal that selfishness is an appropriate response " and " undermine the moral values that lead people to act altruistically .
" For example , " In Haifa , at six day care centers , a fine was imposed on parents who were late picking up their children at the end of the day .
Parents responded to the fine by doubling the fraction of time they arrived late .
When after 12 weeks the fine was revoked , their enhanced tardiness persisted unabated .
" This illustrates a " negative synergy " between economic incentives and moral behavior .
" The fine seems to have undermined the parents ' sense of ethical obligation to avoid inconveniencing the teachers and led them to think of lateness as just another commodity they could purchase .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's more support for that idea from the economist Samuel Bowles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel\_Bowles\_(economist) [wikipedia.org]

Bowles has recently studied the way that people are motivated by selfishness and the desire to maximize their own income, as compared to altruism and the desire to do a good job and be well-regarded by others.
Real-world experiments show that, contrary to traditional economic theories, market incentives destroy cooperation and are less efficient than voluntary, altruistic behavior "in most cases.
"[3]

People act not only for material interests but also "to constitute themselves as dignified, autonomous, and moral individuals," he wrote.
Behavioral experiments suggest that "economic incentives may be counterproductive when they signal that selfishness is an appropriate response" and "undermine the moral values that lead people to act altruistically.
"

For example, "In Haifa, at six day care centers, a fine was imposed on parents who were late picking up their children at the end of the day.
Parents responded to the fine by doubling the fraction of time they arrived late.
When after 12 weeks the fine was revoked, their enhanced tardiness persisted unabated.
" This illustrates a "negative synergy" between economic incentives and moral behavior.
"The fine seems to have undermined the parents' sense of ethical obligation to avoid inconveniencing the teachers and led them to think of lateness as just another commodity they could purchase.
"
</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255385</id>
	<title>Normally, I'd be offended at a cheap shot...</title>
	<author>smchris</author>
	<datestamp>1244451780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><em>Critics, who are unaware that most college students don't become liberal arts majors...</em></p><p>After all, it \_is\_ possible for people to double major, a liberal education is a wonderful thing, blah-de-blah, but paying kids just makes too much sense to get side tracked.  Just look at how cheaply results are attained at a few hundred dollars/student, and it places the responsibility and motivation exactly where they should ultimately reside.  Giving kids money for achievement just means they can have pride in achievement -- and money.  The two are synergistic, not exclusive.</p><p>Something has to be done.  When I graduated decades ago I was one of 10 honor students among 81.  This year my small town graduated 41 honor students among 62.  And still flunked No Child Left Behind for the second year.  It's all B.S. right now. I think we do need objective measurements of success because otherwise local schools will call everyone an honor student and proclaim excellence achieved -- but NCLB isn't being funded and has its own issues.  So if it works, pay the students.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Critics , who are unaware that most college students do n't become liberal arts majors...After all , it \ _is \ _ possible for people to double major , a liberal education is a wonderful thing , blah-de-blah , but paying kids just makes too much sense to get side tracked .
Just look at how cheaply results are attained at a few hundred dollars/student , and it places the responsibility and motivation exactly where they should ultimately reside .
Giving kids money for achievement just means they can have pride in achievement -- and money .
The two are synergistic , not exclusive.Something has to be done .
When I graduated decades ago I was one of 10 honor students among 81 .
This year my small town graduated 41 honor students among 62 .
And still flunked No Child Left Behind for the second year .
It 's all B.S .
right now .
I think we do need objective measurements of success because otherwise local schools will call everyone an honor student and proclaim excellence achieved -- but NCLB is n't being funded and has its own issues .
So if it works , pay the students .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Critics, who are unaware that most college students don't become liberal arts majors...After all, it \_is\_ possible for people to double major, a liberal education is a wonderful thing, blah-de-blah, but paying kids just makes too much sense to get side tracked.
Just look at how cheaply results are attained at a few hundred dollars/student, and it places the responsibility and motivation exactly where they should ultimately reside.
Giving kids money for achievement just means they can have pride in achievement -- and money.
The two are synergistic, not exclusive.Something has to be done.
When I graduated decades ago I was one of 10 honor students among 81.
This year my small town graduated 41 honor students among 62.
And still flunked No Child Left Behind for the second year.
It's all B.S.
right now.
I think we do need objective measurements of success because otherwise local schools will call everyone an honor student and proclaim excellence achieved -- but NCLB isn't being funded and has its own issues.
So if it works, pay the students.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255801</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>shaitand</author>
	<datestamp>1244453040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>These aren't college students, for the most part they do not yet have the maturity to appreciate the intristic value of education. Oh they might parrot the concept back to you because they have been taught it but it is only after it is too late or has done permanent damage that most people come to appreciate the value of education. For instance, adults can return to study and education but they will have permanently lost an advantage that their peers who did the right thing (usually because of parental pressure) in the first place have.</p><p>Anything feasible we as a society can do to mitigate the negative impacts of poor choices made as a child should be done. It is very sad that we have mature adults who will never achieve the american dream due to poor choices made in high school. Especially since an adult who appreciates the value of education will no doubt take more away from the exact same education as a youth who 'made the right choices' the first time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>These are n't college students , for the most part they do not yet have the maturity to appreciate the intristic value of education .
Oh they might parrot the concept back to you because they have been taught it but it is only after it is too late or has done permanent damage that most people come to appreciate the value of education .
For instance , adults can return to study and education but they will have permanently lost an advantage that their peers who did the right thing ( usually because of parental pressure ) in the first place have.Anything feasible we as a society can do to mitigate the negative impacts of poor choices made as a child should be done .
It is very sad that we have mature adults who will never achieve the american dream due to poor choices made in high school .
Especially since an adult who appreciates the value of education will no doubt take more away from the exact same education as a youth who 'made the right choices ' the first time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These aren't college students, for the most part they do not yet have the maturity to appreciate the intristic value of education.
Oh they might parrot the concept back to you because they have been taught it but it is only after it is too late or has done permanent damage that most people come to appreciate the value of education.
For instance, adults can return to study and education but they will have permanently lost an advantage that their peers who did the right thing (usually because of parental pressure) in the first place have.Anything feasible we as a society can do to mitigate the negative impacts of poor choices made as a child should be done.
It is very sad that we have mature adults who will never achieve the american dream due to poor choices made in high school.
Especially since an adult who appreciates the value of education will no doubt take more away from the exact same education as a youth who 'made the right choices' the first time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255665</id>
	<title>Re:Oh man...</title>
	<author>Sulphur</author>
	<datestamp>1244452620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I told a kid to pay attention.  He said he gave at the office.

Utopia :  Think what you want, but don't teach it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I told a kid to pay attention .
He said he gave at the office .
Utopia : Think what you want , but do n't teach it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I told a kid to pay attention.
He said he gave at the office.
Utopia :  Think what you want, but don't teach it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253643</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254909</id>
	<title>s/Compte with/Help purchase</title>
	<author>gregarei</author>
	<datestamp>1244493600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Even so, I would prefer an educated drug user to an uneducated one.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Even so , I would prefer an educated drug user to an uneducated one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even so, I would prefer an educated drug user to an uneducated one.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253973</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28290055</id>
	<title>Re:yah</title>
	<author>Tuoqui</author>
	<datestamp>1244662380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah it also sets them up to realize the reality of the world... Whoever can bribe someone the most wins. Just look at all the big industry lobbying efforts with your congressmen.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah it also sets them up to realize the reality of the world... Whoever can bribe someone the most wins .
Just look at all the big industry lobbying efforts with your congressmen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah it also sets them up to realize the reality of the world... Whoever can bribe someone the most wins.
Just look at all the big industry lobbying efforts with your congressmen.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253745</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254581</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>deander2</author>
	<datestamp>1244492460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>my parents did the same thing, but i wish they hadn't.  at 14 (when your grades really started to count) doing all the BS busy-work homework schools shove at you was much less interesting than the girls sitting around me, or the p.t. job that paid me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>my parents did the same thing , but i wish they had n't .
at 14 ( when your grades really started to count ) doing all the BS busy-work homework schools shove at you was much less interesting than the girls sitting around me , or the p.t .
job that paid me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>my parents did the same thing, but i wish they hadn't.
at 14 (when your grades really started to count) doing all the BS busy-work homework schools shove at you was much less interesting than the girls sitting around me, or the p.t.
job that paid me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254289</id>
	<title>Grades != Education</title>
	<author>Jessta</author>
	<datestamp>1244491200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone."<br>They aren't paying them to gain an education, they are paying them to get higher grades. Grades != Education, and the purpose of grades have always been about money.<br>People send their kids to private schools so they get better grades<br>Universities only accept people with higher grades so they'll hang around long enough for the university to get some money out of them<br>Grades in university are all about showing off to a future employer.</p><p>I've experienced plenty of chances at education being hindered by the need for better grades.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education 's sake alone .
" They are n't paying them to gain an education , they are paying them to get higher grades .
Grades ! = Education , and the purpose of grades have always been about money.People send their kids to private schools so they get better gradesUniversities only accept people with higher grades so they 'll hang around long enough for the university to get some money out of themGrades in university are all about showing off to a future employer.I 've experienced plenty of chances at education being hindered by the need for better grades .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone.
"They aren't paying them to gain an education, they are paying them to get higher grades.
Grades != Education, and the purpose of grades have always been about money.People send their kids to private schools so they get better gradesUniversities only accept people with higher grades so they'll hang around long enough for the university to get some money out of themGrades in university are all about showing off to a future employer.I've experienced plenty of chances at education being hindered by the need for better grades.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254183</id>
	<title>Like paying programmers by the line of code</title>
	<author>bzzfzz</author>
	<datestamp>1244490720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>People behave the way they're compensated.</p><p>The problem is that the metric never quite matches the goal.  Anyone who's been in software development long enough has seen one or more "objective performance metrics" management fads come and go.  With these there are incentives tied to making the dates, writing x lines of code, having fewer than y bugs, or whatever.  What happens is that people make sure they pass the metrics.  The trouble is that the metrics don't measure the desired behavior, just an imperfect proxy for it, and people figure out how to game the system.  With programmers, they under commit, won't make changes, won't provide support, and won't work with their peers (though the exact nature of the dysfunction varies depending on the incentive structure).  With students, the test becomes the goal and other aspects of learning are neglected. </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People behave the way they 're compensated.The problem is that the metric never quite matches the goal .
Anyone who 's been in software development long enough has seen one or more " objective performance metrics " management fads come and go .
With these there are incentives tied to making the dates , writing x lines of code , having fewer than y bugs , or whatever .
What happens is that people make sure they pass the metrics .
The trouble is that the metrics do n't measure the desired behavior , just an imperfect proxy for it , and people figure out how to game the system .
With programmers , they under commit , wo n't make changes , wo n't provide support , and wo n't work with their peers ( though the exact nature of the dysfunction varies depending on the incentive structure ) .
With students , the test becomes the goal and other aspects of learning are neglected .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People behave the way they're compensated.The problem is that the metric never quite matches the goal.
Anyone who's been in software development long enough has seen one or more "objective performance metrics" management fads come and go.
With these there are incentives tied to making the dates, writing x lines of code, having fewer than y bugs, or whatever.
What happens is that people make sure they pass the metrics.
The trouble is that the metrics don't measure the desired behavior, just an imperfect proxy for it, and people figure out how to game the system.
With programmers, they under commit, won't make changes, won't provide support, and won't work with their peers (though the exact nature of the dysfunction varies depending on the incentive structure).
With students, the test becomes the goal and other aspects of learning are neglected. </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253745</id>
	<title>yah</title>
	<author>quall</author>
	<datestamp>1244488920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Critics, who are unaware that most college students don't become liberal arts majors, argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone."

I don't know anyone who learns for the sakes of education. I don't think the 40\% of kids who did better would have done so just to learn either. Money is motivation. Learning just for the hell of it is not. I wish they did this when I was in school. I got really poor grades in classes that I did no care about. I would have done much better if they paid me to learn the things that I found (and still are) useless.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Critics , who are unaware that most college students do n't become liberal arts majors , argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education 's sake alone .
" I do n't know anyone who learns for the sakes of education .
I do n't think the 40 \ % of kids who did better would have done so just to learn either .
Money is motivation .
Learning just for the hell of it is not .
I wish they did this when I was in school .
I got really poor grades in classes that I did no care about .
I would have done much better if they paid me to learn the things that I found ( and still are ) useless .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Critics, who are unaware that most college students don't become liberal arts majors, argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone.
"

I don't know anyone who learns for the sakes of education.
I don't think the 40\% of kids who did better would have done so just to learn either.
Money is motivation.
Learning just for the hell of it is not.
I wish they did this when I was in school.
I got really poor grades in classes that I did no care about.
I would have done much better if they paid me to learn the things that I found (and still are) useless.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255327</id>
	<title>Re:Scores may go up, but I doubt comprehension is</title>
	<author>bwian232</author>
	<datestamp>1244451660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This may be true, but that's a failing in the education system which allows kids to substitute memorisation for learning.  It has nothing to do with the viability of money as a motivating factor.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This may be true , but that 's a failing in the education system which allows kids to substitute memorisation for learning .
It has nothing to do with the viability of money as a motivating factor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This may be true, but that's a failing in the education system which allows kids to substitute memorisation for learning.
It has nothing to do with the viability of money as a motivating factor.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253717</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253731</id>
	<title>The socialization of America continues . . .</title>
	<author>cashman73</author>
	<datestamp>1244488920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This must be part of Obama's Grand Vision for America. After all, as Slashdotters, we all know that:<p>

In Soviet Russia, Schools PAY YOU!!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This must be part of Obama 's Grand Vision for America .
After all , as Slashdotters , we all know that : In Soviet Russia , Schools PAY YOU ! ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This must be part of Obama's Grand Vision for America.
After all, as Slashdotters, we all know that:

In Soviet Russia, Schools PAY YOU!!!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28258575</id>
	<title>Paying for tests, not grades</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244463720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The 40\% increase is *not* in grades but in assessment test results.  Kids don't care about assessment tests.  They effect the school and not the student.</p><p>If you tell someone to do something for no reason are they going to do it A) better or B) worse than if you paid them?</p><p>The schools are just sharing the money they get from better test results with the kids.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The 40 \ % increase is * not * in grades but in assessment test results .
Kids do n't care about assessment tests .
They effect the school and not the student.If you tell someone to do something for no reason are they going to do it A ) better or B ) worse than if you paid them ? The schools are just sharing the money they get from better test results with the kids .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The 40\% increase is *not* in grades but in assessment test results.
Kids don't care about assessment tests.
They effect the school and not the student.If you tell someone to do something for no reason are they going to do it A) better or B) worse than if you paid them?The schools are just sharing the money they get from better test results with the kids.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28269973</id>
	<title>Re:Scores may go up, but I doubt comprehension is</title>
	<author>Simetrical</author>
	<datestamp>1244578320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The biggest waste was the 8 terms of advanced calculus.</p></div><p>My college only <em>offered</em> five terms of calculus total.  I was a pure math major and I only took eight semesters of even vaguely calculus-related stuff, and that was only because I took four electives (differential equations, real analysis, complex analysis, differential geometry).  I could only have crammed in about two more even if I had tried to take every course offered that involved any calculus.  WTF kind of school requires engineers to take eight calculus courses?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The biggest waste was the 8 terms of advanced calculus.My college only offered five terms of calculus total .
I was a pure math major and I only took eight semesters of even vaguely calculus-related stuff , and that was only because I took four electives ( differential equations , real analysis , complex analysis , differential geometry ) .
I could only have crammed in about two more even if I had tried to take every course offered that involved any calculus .
WTF kind of school requires engineers to take eight calculus courses ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The biggest waste was the 8 terms of advanced calculus.My college only offered five terms of calculus total.
I was a pure math major and I only took eight semesters of even vaguely calculus-related stuff, and that was only because I took four electives (differential equations, real analysis, complex analysis, differential geometry).
I could only have crammed in about two more even if I had tried to take every course offered that involved any calculus.
WTF kind of school requires engineers to take eight calculus courses?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255727</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28261971</id>
	<title>Everyone dreamed of this when I was in school</title>
	<author>rxan</author>
	<datestamp>1244487120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm sure the notion of being payed for doing schoolwork has occurred to everyone in their elementary days. Then I got older and realized that I was getting an education for free. (Really through taxes, but essentially free.)</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sure the notion of being payed for doing schoolwork has occurred to everyone in their elementary days .
Then I got older and realized that I was getting an education for free .
( Really through taxes , but essentially free .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sure the notion of being payed for doing schoolwork has occurred to everyone in their elementary days.
Then I got older and realized that I was getting an education for free.
(Really through taxes, but essentially free.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254139</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244490600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Rewards take many forms, though. At which point does a reward become unacceptable in your opinion?</p><p>My parents, for example, never paid me for good grades, but they did laud me if I get an A or a B. Would you say that that's bad - that I didn't deserve a reward (which is what it is, when you think about it) for doing what I was supposed to be doing anyways? Do you think I would've turned out to be a better person (whatever that means!) if I hadn't been commended for things like this when I was young?</p><p>I'm honestly curious.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Rewards take many forms , though .
At which point does a reward become unacceptable in your opinion ? My parents , for example , never paid me for good grades , but they did laud me if I get an A or a B. Would you say that that 's bad - that I did n't deserve a reward ( which is what it is , when you think about it ) for doing what I was supposed to be doing anyways ?
Do you think I would 've turned out to be a better person ( whatever that means !
) if I had n't been commended for things like this when I was young ? I 'm honestly curious .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Rewards take many forms, though.
At which point does a reward become unacceptable in your opinion?My parents, for example, never paid me for good grades, but they did laud me if I get an A or a B. Would you say that that's bad - that I didn't deserve a reward (which is what it is, when you think about it) for doing what I was supposed to be doing anyways?
Do you think I would've turned out to be a better person (whatever that means!
) if I hadn't been commended for things like this when I was young?I'm honestly curious.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253689</id>
	<title>So how much...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244488740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>did they pay <a href="http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/06/08/1444215/11-Year-Old-Graduates-With-Degree-In-Astrophysics?art\_pos=3" title="slashdot.org">this kid</a> [slashdot.org]?</htmltext>
<tokenext>did they pay this kid [ slashdot.org ] ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>did they pay this kid [slashdot.org]?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253769</id>
	<title>Not a surprise</title>
	<author>LinuxInDallas</author>
	<datestamp>1244488980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not terribly surprising. A big problem with kids (high-school included) is that they don't understand the value of an education. If you pay them then their short-sighted nature is much more likely to place a value on it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not terribly surprising .
A big problem with kids ( high-school included ) is that they do n't understand the value of an education .
If you pay them then their short-sighted nature is much more likely to place a value on it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not terribly surprising.
A big problem with kids (high-school included) is that they don't understand the value of an education.
If you pay them then their short-sighted nature is much more likely to place a value on it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254459</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244491920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I was in school, the motivators were desire to please our teachers, desire to do well in our classmates' eyes (there was a LOT of peer pressure to get good grades), and somewhat less desire to please our parents. It was expected behaviour and how we *earned* something rather more valuable -- self-esteem and the recognition that we COULD do this stuff.</p><p>The kids who did get paid by their parents for grade performance tended to slack off when the money lost its interest. The rest of us -- peer pressure never ends. It was ALWAYS embarrassing to fail, in the eyes of our peers or of our teachers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was in school , the motivators were desire to please our teachers , desire to do well in our classmates ' eyes ( there was a LOT of peer pressure to get good grades ) , and somewhat less desire to please our parents .
It was expected behaviour and how we * earned * something rather more valuable -- self-esteem and the recognition that we COULD do this stuff.The kids who did get paid by their parents for grade performance tended to slack off when the money lost its interest .
The rest of us -- peer pressure never ends .
It was ALWAYS embarrassing to fail , in the eyes of our peers or of our teachers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was in school, the motivators were desire to please our teachers, desire to do well in our classmates' eyes (there was a LOT of peer pressure to get good grades), and somewhat less desire to please our parents.
It was expected behaviour and how we *earned* something rather more valuable -- self-esteem and the recognition that we COULD do this stuff.The kids who did get paid by their parents for grade performance tended to slack off when the money lost its interest.
The rest of us -- peer pressure never ends.
It was ALWAYS embarrassing to fail, in the eyes of our peers or of our teachers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253971</id>
	<title>When Money Is Involved</title>
	<author>kenp2002</author>
	<datestamp>1244489760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... When money is involved people tend to try and maximize the opportunity to get money.</p><p>I'd be more apt to belive that by offering money you are raising the stakes and you'll get more people cutting corners to get the money.</p><p>I'd wager more cheating then more intelligence, once you add money into the picture.</p><p>By adding money as a reward you are raising the stakes. At some point, the risk vs. reward line is passed and the reward is now worth cheating.</p><p>I've busted plenty of people trying to cheat and I have seen on serveral occassions the reason they cheat was "If I got all As I could go to cancun, or I get a new bike, or I get a car for graduation, etc.....".</p><p>FYI: Baseball caps are not the way to cheat. Neither is your cell phone on vibrate.</p><p>Example:<br>(They would send an SMS to the cheaters based on which 10 second span was the answer so:</p><p>1-10: A<br>11-20: B<br>21-30: C<br>31-40: D<br>41-50: E<br>51-60: Pause between questions.</p><p>So I sat there looking at the answer sheet and sure enough the SMS messages were coming in. Wasn't hard to throw out all 9 of them.</p><p>The problem is: VIBRATE IS ACTUALLY LOUD WHEN 9 PHONES ALL GO OFF AT THE SAME TIME.</p><p>Sadly these were adult students to boot...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... When money is involved people tend to try and maximize the opportunity to get money.I 'd be more apt to belive that by offering money you are raising the stakes and you 'll get more people cutting corners to get the money.I 'd wager more cheating then more intelligence , once you add money into the picture.By adding money as a reward you are raising the stakes .
At some point , the risk vs. reward line is passed and the reward is now worth cheating.I 've busted plenty of people trying to cheat and I have seen on serveral occassions the reason they cheat was " If I got all As I could go to cancun , or I get a new bike , or I get a car for graduation , etc..... " .FYI : Baseball caps are not the way to cheat .
Neither is your cell phone on vibrate.Example : ( They would send an SMS to the cheaters based on which 10 second span was the answer so : 1-10 : A11-20 : B21-30 : C31-40 : D41-50 : E51-60 : Pause between questions.So I sat there looking at the answer sheet and sure enough the SMS messages were coming in .
Was n't hard to throw out all 9 of them.The problem is : VIBRATE IS ACTUALLY LOUD WHEN 9 PHONES ALL GO OFF AT THE SAME TIME.Sadly these were adult students to boot.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... When money is involved people tend to try and maximize the opportunity to get money.I'd be more apt to belive that by offering money you are raising the stakes and you'll get more people cutting corners to get the money.I'd wager more cheating then more intelligence, once you add money into the picture.By adding money as a reward you are raising the stakes.
At some point, the risk vs. reward line is passed and the reward is now worth cheating.I've busted plenty of people trying to cheat and I have seen on serveral occassions the reason they cheat was "If I got all As I could go to cancun, or I get a new bike, or I get a car for graduation, etc.....".FYI: Baseball caps are not the way to cheat.
Neither is your cell phone on vibrate.Example:(They would send an SMS to the cheaters based on which 10 second span was the answer so:1-10: A11-20: B21-30: C31-40: D41-50: E51-60: Pause between questions.So I sat there looking at the answer sheet and sure enough the SMS messages were coming in.
Wasn't hard to throw out all 9 of them.The problem is: VIBRATE IS ACTUALLY LOUD WHEN 9 PHONES ALL GO OFF AT THE SAME TIME.Sadly these were adult students to boot...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253755</id>
	<title>I had straight 8's all the way through highschool</title>
	<author>shellster\_dude</author>
	<datestamp>1244488980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Where do I collect?<br> <br>

Seriously though, why is paying someone to do what they already should be doing, a good idea?  Even if they are getting better grades, it is developing a sense of entitlement, which will be far more damaging than bad grades in the future.  The world in general seems to already suffer from an overdose of self-entitlement.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Where do I collect ?
Seriously though , why is paying someone to do what they already should be doing , a good idea ?
Even if they are getting better grades , it is developing a sense of entitlement , which will be far more damaging than bad grades in the future .
The world in general seems to already suffer from an overdose of self-entitlement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where do I collect?
Seriously though, why is paying someone to do what they already should be doing, a good idea?
Even if they are getting better grades, it is developing a sense of entitlement, which will be far more damaging than bad grades in the future.
The world in general seems to already suffer from an overdose of self-entitlement.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254809</id>
	<title>WWACD?</title>
	<author>hduff</author>
	<datestamp>1244493300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What Would Alfie Cohn Do?</p><p>
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0618001816/ref=ase\_fastcompanycom/102-5164850-9600113?v=glance&amp;s=books" title="amazon.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0618001816/ref=ase\_fastcompanycom/102-5164850-9600113?v=glance&amp;s=books</a> [amazon.com]

</p><p>These anecdotes seem to fly in the face of research on the subject. What is being unsaid about this "experiment"?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What Would Alfie Cohn Do ?
http : //www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0618001816/ref = ase \ _fastcompanycom/102-5164850-9600113 ? v = glance&amp;s = books [ amazon.com ] These anecdotes seem to fly in the face of research on the subject .
What is being unsaid about this " experiment " ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What Would Alfie Cohn Do?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0618001816/ref=ase\_fastcompanycom/102-5164850-9600113?v=glance&amp;s=books [amazon.com]

These anecdotes seem to fly in the face of research on the subject.
What is being unsaid about this "experiment"?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28267295</id>
	<title>Just don't tell them ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244568240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>about derivatives</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>about derivatives</tokentext>
<sentencetext>about derivatives</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257487</id>
	<title>Nobody learns to learn</title>
	<author>justinlee37</author>
	<datestamp>1244459040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>critics argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone</i> </p><p>Nobody learns just for the sake of learning. We learn to improve our condition; to develop better technologies, grow more food, and make life easier. Learning "for the sake of learning" would be a waste of a good mind. I think this program is a good idea. Giving kids more immediate rewards for getting their education will condition them to enjoy education more in the future and ensure that they are setting the proper foundation of knowledge for college and/or the workplace.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>critics argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education 's sake alone Nobody learns just for the sake of learning .
We learn to improve our condition ; to develop better technologies , grow more food , and make life easier .
Learning " for the sake of learning " would be a waste of a good mind .
I think this program is a good idea .
Giving kids more immediate rewards for getting their education will condition them to enjoy education more in the future and ensure that they are setting the proper foundation of knowledge for college and/or the workplace .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> critics argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone Nobody learns just for the sake of learning.
We learn to improve our condition; to develop better technologies, grow more food, and make life easier.
Learning "for the sake of learning" would be a waste of a good mind.
I think this program is a good idea.
Giving kids more immediate rewards for getting their education will condition them to enjoy education more in the future and ensure that they are setting the proper foundation of knowledge for college and/or the workplace.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256235</id>
	<title>Grades, Money and Carrots</title>
	<author>Schmelzy</author>
	<datestamp>1244454360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>People do things when they are motivated.  Escalating the motivation from "look! I got an A!" to "Look! I got $400!" is logical when you consider American culture hates intelligence but loves greed. In the end though you're still teaching kids to jump through hoops to get a carrot.  Sit down. Be quiet. Trust Authority.  Remember your place. Be a Jock, Nerd, Loser, Pick-a-clique. The kids who win in the end are the ones who some how learn to be passionate and self motivated despite school.</htmltext>
<tokenext>People do things when they are motivated .
Escalating the motivation from " look !
I got an A !
" to " Look !
I got $ 400 !
" is logical when you consider American culture hates intelligence but loves greed .
In the end though you 're still teaching kids to jump through hoops to get a carrot .
Sit down .
Be quiet .
Trust Authority .
Remember your place .
Be a Jock , Nerd , Loser , Pick-a-clique .
The kids who win in the end are the ones who some how learn to be passionate and self motivated despite school .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People do things when they are motivated.
Escalating the motivation from "look!
I got an A!
" to "Look!
I got $400!
" is logical when you consider American culture hates intelligence but loves greed.
In the end though you're still teaching kids to jump through hoops to get a carrot.
Sit down.
Be quiet.
Trust Authority.
Remember your place.
Be a Jock, Nerd, Loser, Pick-a-clique.
The kids who win in the end are the ones who some how learn to be passionate and self motivated despite school.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254443</id>
	<title>Short-term gains</title>
	<author>Singri</author>
	<datestamp>1244491860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Can we conclude that kids these days can only see the short-term gains and hence do well in class if they are paid for good grades? One goes to school in order to have a better life in the future - a long term gain.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Can we conclude that kids these days can only see the short-term gains and hence do well in class if they are paid for good grades ?
One goes to school in order to have a better life in the future - a long term gain .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can we conclude that kids these days can only see the short-term gains and hence do well in class if they are paid for good grades?
One goes to school in order to have a better life in the future - a long term gain.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255269</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>Kneo24</author>
	<datestamp>1244494740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My parents paid my sister and I for our good grades, but they also made it clear that they did expect those grades regardless. They rewarded us for good grades, and punished us if we got really bad ones. You got a "D" in math? We're going to make sure you sit down and do your work and ban your TV time until we see an improvement.</p><p>I personally hated getting bad grades, even when I was eight. A good grade felt like I accomplished something. It isn't because I tried to regurgitate as much information as I could, but because I learned something. As I got older I stopped studying. I got to a point where I realized if I knew something or not. If I knew it and understood it, I had no reason to study. If I didn't know it by test time, studying was a waste of time. I may do better on a test, but I would never truly retain it, so why waste the time? And honestly, I did fairly well in my educational programs and higher educational ones too.</p><p>This attitude pissed off a lot of my teachers, instructors, and professors over the years. They acted as if I had to know every tid bit of knowledge there is to know with what they presented to me. That's bullshit. Was some of what I didn't retain useful? Probably. All of it? Probably not. If I have a need to learn something, I'll work at it until I fully understand what it is. Most adults still can't even do that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My parents paid my sister and I for our good grades , but they also made it clear that they did expect those grades regardless .
They rewarded us for good grades , and punished us if we got really bad ones .
You got a " D " in math ?
We 're going to make sure you sit down and do your work and ban your TV time until we see an improvement.I personally hated getting bad grades , even when I was eight .
A good grade felt like I accomplished something .
It is n't because I tried to regurgitate as much information as I could , but because I learned something .
As I got older I stopped studying .
I got to a point where I realized if I knew something or not .
If I knew it and understood it , I had no reason to study .
If I did n't know it by test time , studying was a waste of time .
I may do better on a test , but I would never truly retain it , so why waste the time ?
And honestly , I did fairly well in my educational programs and higher educational ones too.This attitude pissed off a lot of my teachers , instructors , and professors over the years .
They acted as if I had to know every tid bit of knowledge there is to know with what they presented to me .
That 's bullshit .
Was some of what I did n't retain useful ?
Probably. All of it ?
Probably not .
If I have a need to learn something , I 'll work at it until I fully understand what it is .
Most adults still ca n't even do that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My parents paid my sister and I for our good grades, but they also made it clear that they did expect those grades regardless.
They rewarded us for good grades, and punished us if we got really bad ones.
You got a "D" in math?
We're going to make sure you sit down and do your work and ban your TV time until we see an improvement.I personally hated getting bad grades, even when I was eight.
A good grade felt like I accomplished something.
It isn't because I tried to regurgitate as much information as I could, but because I learned something.
As I got older I stopped studying.
I got to a point where I realized if I knew something or not.
If I knew it and understood it, I had no reason to study.
If I didn't know it by test time, studying was a waste of time.
I may do better on a test, but I would never truly retain it, so why waste the time?
And honestly, I did fairly well in my educational programs and higher educational ones too.This attitude pissed off a lot of my teachers, instructors, and professors over the years.
They acted as if I had to know every tid bit of knowledge there is to know with what they presented to me.
That's bullshit.
Was some of what I didn't retain useful?
Probably. All of it?
Probably not.
If I have a need to learn something, I'll work at it until I fully understand what it is.
Most adults still can't even do that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253925</id>
	<title>Speaking from Experience</title>
	<author>hardwarejunkie9</author>
	<datestamp>1244489640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Back when I was in highschool, a brief two years ago, my school district got a grant from the SOAR program which helped underwrite the costs for AP programs and testing.
The students received not only a decreased application fee, but their fee refunded and 100 dollars on top for passing the exam.
This didn't just encourage students to perform better, it caused the honors programs to increase drastically in their enrollment. Many more "average" students took advantage of the program and now are enjoying the college tuition credit that the AP exams offers.


The most interesting thing to consider about this was that many students started referring to their education as their "job". I personally knew many students whose grades improved upon moving to harder material. The response I've heard from many accounts is that they felt that they finally were respected for the work they put into their grades.


Now, the problem, I think, that may lie with this system as proposed above is that it seems to create no real boundary line between scholastic rigor and simply doing what is expected of you. If you show up and do what is asked of you, they pay you. It's not really creating the initiative among the students to own their own education. The moment that a student can realize for themselves that the teacher actually works for *THEM* and not the other way around is the moment that they can truly excel.


All I can say is that I've seen the effects first hand. Our two local schools were public, poor, and had probably 700-850 students (consider that enrollment strongly decreases for junior and senior level due to drop out rates) combined for the total enrollment. We had 8 national merit finalists (top half percentile) and the National AP Scholar (only 1 or two given out per YEAR).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Back when I was in highschool , a brief two years ago , my school district got a grant from the SOAR program which helped underwrite the costs for AP programs and testing .
The students received not only a decreased application fee , but their fee refunded and 100 dollars on top for passing the exam .
This did n't just encourage students to perform better , it caused the honors programs to increase drastically in their enrollment .
Many more " average " students took advantage of the program and now are enjoying the college tuition credit that the AP exams offers .
The most interesting thing to consider about this was that many students started referring to their education as their " job " .
I personally knew many students whose grades improved upon moving to harder material .
The response I 've heard from many accounts is that they felt that they finally were respected for the work they put into their grades .
Now , the problem , I think , that may lie with this system as proposed above is that it seems to create no real boundary line between scholastic rigor and simply doing what is expected of you .
If you show up and do what is asked of you , they pay you .
It 's not really creating the initiative among the students to own their own education .
The moment that a student can realize for themselves that the teacher actually works for * THEM * and not the other way around is the moment that they can truly excel .
All I can say is that I 've seen the effects first hand .
Our two local schools were public , poor , and had probably 700-850 students ( consider that enrollment strongly decreases for junior and senior level due to drop out rates ) combined for the total enrollment .
We had 8 national merit finalists ( top half percentile ) and the National AP Scholar ( only 1 or two given out per YEAR ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back when I was in highschool, a brief two years ago, my school district got a grant from the SOAR program which helped underwrite the costs for AP programs and testing.
The students received not only a decreased application fee, but their fee refunded and 100 dollars on top for passing the exam.
This didn't just encourage students to perform better, it caused the honors programs to increase drastically in their enrollment.
Many more "average" students took advantage of the program and now are enjoying the college tuition credit that the AP exams offers.
The most interesting thing to consider about this was that many students started referring to their education as their "job".
I personally knew many students whose grades improved upon moving to harder material.
The response I've heard from many accounts is that they felt that they finally were respected for the work they put into their grades.
Now, the problem, I think, that may lie with this system as proposed above is that it seems to create no real boundary line between scholastic rigor and simply doing what is expected of you.
If you show up and do what is asked of you, they pay you.
It's not really creating the initiative among the students to own their own education.
The moment that a student can realize for themselves that the teacher actually works for *THEM* and not the other way around is the moment that they can truly excel.
All I can say is that I've seen the effects first hand.
Our two local schools were public, poor, and had probably 700-850 students (consider that enrollment strongly decreases for junior and senior level due to drop out rates) combined for the total enrollment.
We had 8 national merit finalists (top half percentile) and the National AP Scholar (only 1 or two given out per YEAR).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254547</id>
	<title>Net-worth != Self-worth</title>
	<author>johncadengo</author>
	<datestamp>1244492280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>From the article:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>"It's an ego booster in terms of self-worth," said Rose Marie Mills, principal at MS 343 in Mott Haven, where nearly 90 percent of students qualify for federal poverty aid.</p></div><p>It is sad to see that in America we have tied self-worth to monetary possession. Worse, that the most impoverished feel the least worthy.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>From the article : " It 's an ego booster in terms of self-worth , " said Rose Marie Mills , principal at MS 343 in Mott Haven , where nearly 90 percent of students qualify for federal poverty aid.It is sad to see that in America we have tied self-worth to monetary possession .
Worse , that the most impoverished feel the least worthy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From the article:"It's an ego booster in terms of self-worth," said Rose Marie Mills, principal at MS 343 in Mott Haven, where nearly 90 percent of students qualify for federal poverty aid.It is sad to see that in America we have tied self-worth to monetary possession.
Worse, that the most impoverished feel the least worthy.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254623</id>
	<title>Re:Who'da thunk?</title>
	<author>Slate99</author>
	<datestamp>1244492640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>PC is the first step into socialism.  Sorry, but we are heading towards more PC behaviour and not less...</htmltext>
<tokenext>PC is the first step into socialism .
Sorry , but we are heading towards more PC behaviour and not less.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>PC is the first step into socialism.
Sorry, but we are heading towards more PC behaviour and not less...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253739</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256391</id>
	<title>Subsidizing that, which value has dropped</title>
	<author>Maltheus</author>
	<datestamp>1244454900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Although I'm sure that kids these days aren't consciously rationalizing it as such, they must, on some level, be recognizing that a good education isn't as straight a path to success as it once was. The real problem is the growing deficit in quality jobs. After observing so many well educated adults work so hard just to cover the basics, is it any wonder that kids need to be bribed to give a shit?</p><p>In any case, it's more about who you know, than what you know. For right or wrong, bullshitting and networking are the skills to have. And kids don't need much motivating to work on those skills. They'll work on them for free. And they have more tools than we ever did to help them out there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Although I 'm sure that kids these days are n't consciously rationalizing it as such , they must , on some level , be recognizing that a good education is n't as straight a path to success as it once was .
The real problem is the growing deficit in quality jobs .
After observing so many well educated adults work so hard just to cover the basics , is it any wonder that kids need to be bribed to give a shit ? In any case , it 's more about who you know , than what you know .
For right or wrong , bullshitting and networking are the skills to have .
And kids do n't need much motivating to work on those skills .
They 'll work on them for free .
And they have more tools than we ever did to help them out there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Although I'm sure that kids these days aren't consciously rationalizing it as such, they must, on some level, be recognizing that a good education isn't as straight a path to success as it once was.
The real problem is the growing deficit in quality jobs.
After observing so many well educated adults work so hard just to cover the basics, is it any wonder that kids need to be bribed to give a shit?In any case, it's more about who you know, than what you know.
For right or wrong, bullshitting and networking are the skills to have.
And kids don't need much motivating to work on those skills.
They'll work on them for free.
And they have more tools than we ever did to help them out there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254991</id>
	<title>The New York Post is not a good source</title>
	<author>cohomology</author>
	<datestamp>1244493900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Could we get a source other than the New York Post please? The paper called itself "New York's daily picture newspaper". Since Murdoch took over, it has only gotten worse. It makes me embarrassed to live in New York City.</p><p>From Wikipedia:<br>"In 1980, the Columbia Journalism Review asserted that "the New York Post is no longer merely a journalistic problem. It is a social problem - a force for evil."</p><p>The New York Post is for gossip, clever headlines, and sports. But not for journalism. It's like slashdot, but dumb.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Could we get a source other than the New York Post please ?
The paper called itself " New York 's daily picture newspaper " .
Since Murdoch took over , it has only gotten worse .
It makes me embarrassed to live in New York City.From Wikipedia : " In 1980 , the Columbia Journalism Review asserted that " the New York Post is no longer merely a journalistic problem .
It is a social problem - a force for evil .
" The New York Post is for gossip , clever headlines , and sports .
But not for journalism .
It 's like slashdot , but dumb .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Could we get a source other than the New York Post please?
The paper called itself "New York's daily picture newspaper".
Since Murdoch took over, it has only gotten worse.
It makes me embarrassed to live in New York City.From Wikipedia:"In 1980, the Columbia Journalism Review asserted that "the New York Post is no longer merely a journalistic problem.
It is a social problem - a force for evil.
"The New York Post is for gossip, clever headlines, and sports.
But not for journalism.
It's like slashdot, but dumb.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257447</id>
	<title>Re:The value of our education...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244458860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's actually remarkably close to what we pay - through taxes, of course. Having worked in the reporting department of a school district, the government pays about $7000 per kid, per year.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's actually remarkably close to what we pay - through taxes , of course .
Having worked in the reporting department of a school district , the government pays about $ 7000 per kid , per year .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's actually remarkably close to what we pay - through taxes, of course.
Having worked in the reporting department of a school district, the government pays about $7000 per kid, per year.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254415</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254563</id>
	<title>Poor Summary. Not 40\% Improvement</title>
	<author>MarkLR</author>
	<datestamp>1244492400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It was not a 40\% improvement in individual scores. The article states that in some schools it was a 40\% improvement in the number of kids meeting some exam standard. What the prior or new scores and what the standard is was not given. Paying may help but I doubt by 40\%.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It was not a 40 \ % improvement in individual scores .
The article states that in some schools it was a 40 \ % improvement in the number of kids meeting some exam standard .
What the prior or new scores and what the standard is was not given .
Paying may help but I doubt by 40 \ % .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It was not a 40\% improvement in individual scores.
The article states that in some schools it was a 40\% improvement in the number of kids meeting some exam standard.
What the prior or new scores and what the standard is was not given.
Paying may help but I doubt by 40\%.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254179</id>
	<title>Re:short-sightedness.</title>
	<author>ndpope</author>
	<datestamp>1244490660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That is the culture we live in.  Governments look as far ahead as they the next election.  In the US, if you want to try to effect change through the government, go to a Senator (six-year term) instead of a Representative (two-year term).  A Rep is looking for how to get elected to their next term before the ink is dry on the results from the last election.  You won't get that change unless your good idea comes packaged with a bundle of laundered money, but at least you tried.


Parliamentary governments look to when the next elections must be scheduled.  Do you think Gordon Brown is worrying about the economic situation in 2016 when he is struggling to keep his hold on power?  I don't.



Self-interest is the greatest motivator.  If the child sees something in it for them, they will perform better.  Some children value learning and the money won't help.  some see little value in learning and money will help because there is some value.  Some children may be more motivated by seeing their name on a plaque in the hallway of their school than they would be by money.

The point is not to look at this study and say it does not work for everyone, so it is not worth paying them money.  The point is to look at the 70\% (wild-asses guess) of underperforming students and determine what motivates them.  If this helps 20\% of that group of underperformers, then you are left with 56\% of the total pool that needs help.  Then move on to the next idea to attack that smaller pool.  Just because something does not help everyone does not mean it cannot help anyone.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That is the culture we live in .
Governments look as far ahead as they the next election .
In the US , if you want to try to effect change through the government , go to a Senator ( six-year term ) instead of a Representative ( two-year term ) .
A Rep is looking for how to get elected to their next term before the ink is dry on the results from the last election .
You wo n't get that change unless your good idea comes packaged with a bundle of laundered money , but at least you tried .
Parliamentary governments look to when the next elections must be scheduled .
Do you think Gordon Brown is worrying about the economic situation in 2016 when he is struggling to keep his hold on power ?
I do n't .
Self-interest is the greatest motivator .
If the child sees something in it for them , they will perform better .
Some children value learning and the money wo n't help .
some see little value in learning and money will help because there is some value .
Some children may be more motivated by seeing their name on a plaque in the hallway of their school than they would be by money .
The point is not to look at this study and say it does not work for everyone , so it is not worth paying them money .
The point is to look at the 70 \ % ( wild-asses guess ) of underperforming students and determine what motivates them .
If this helps 20 \ % of that group of underperformers , then you are left with 56 \ % of the total pool that needs help .
Then move on to the next idea to attack that smaller pool .
Just because something does not help everyone does not mean it can not help anyone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is the culture we live in.
Governments look as far ahead as they the next election.
In the US, if you want to try to effect change through the government, go to a Senator (six-year term) instead of a Representative (two-year term).
A Rep is looking for how to get elected to their next term before the ink is dry on the results from the last election.
You won't get that change unless your good idea comes packaged with a bundle of laundered money, but at least you tried.
Parliamentary governments look to when the next elections must be scheduled.
Do you think Gordon Brown is worrying about the economic situation in 2016 when he is struggling to keep his hold on power?
I don't.
Self-interest is the greatest motivator.
If the child sees something in it for them, they will perform better.
Some children value learning and the money won't help.
some see little value in learning and money will help because there is some value.
Some children may be more motivated by seeing their name on a plaque in the hallway of their school than they would be by money.
The point is not to look at this study and say it does not work for everyone, so it is not worth paying them money.
The point is to look at the 70\% (wild-asses guess) of underperforming students and determine what motivates them.
If this helps 20\% of that group of underperformers, then you are left with 56\% of the total pool that needs help.
Then move on to the next idea to attack that smaller pool.
Just because something does not help everyone does not mean it cannot help anyone.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253927</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253829</id>
	<title>40 Percent Higher???</title>
	<author>fatp</author>
	<datestamp>1244489280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Unless you are disallowed to score &gt; 72\% without salary...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless you are disallowed to score &gt; 72 \ % without salary.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless you are disallowed to score &gt; 72\% without salary...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257937</id>
	<title>Other side of the fence</title>
	<author>gbarules2999</author>
	<datestamp>1244460660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm a high school student who just graduated last week. Tell me the value of what I have learned so far, if I don't understand it as you claim. What will my diploma accomplish? What can I do with it?<br> <br>But more importantly, how can I succeed with the education I've received? That's what it boils down to, and by and large, the answer is, "You can't, at least not yet. You need to work even more." A high school education means <b>absolutely nothing</b> these days.<br> <br>Blame the students, I guess, they're too dumb/stupid/interested in their cell phones to blame back. Is that how Slashdot runs these days?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a high school student who just graduated last week .
Tell me the value of what I have learned so far , if I do n't understand it as you claim .
What will my diploma accomplish ?
What can I do with it ?
But more importantly , how can I succeed with the education I 've received ?
That 's what it boils down to , and by and large , the answer is , " You ca n't , at least not yet .
You need to work even more .
" A high school education means absolutely nothing these days .
Blame the students , I guess , they 're too dumb/stupid/interested in their cell phones to blame back .
Is that how Slashdot runs these days ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a high school student who just graduated last week.
Tell me the value of what I have learned so far, if I don't understand it as you claim.
What will my diploma accomplish?
What can I do with it?
But more importantly, how can I succeed with the education I've received?
That's what it boils down to, and by and large, the answer is, "You can't, at least not yet.
You need to work even more.
" A high school education means absolutely nothing these days.
Blame the students, I guess, they're too dumb/stupid/interested in their cell phones to blame back.
Is that how Slashdot runs these days?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253769</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254579</id>
	<title>Re:Look in the mirror</title>
	<author>tnk1</author>
	<datestamp>1244492400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't know... Seems silly to pay people to want to ensure their long term success.</p><p>On the other hand, we pay them with welfare and unemployment benefits anyway.  Maybe twenty bucks to get that B+ isn't such a bad idea after all.  Even if they are cheating on their tests, we are training a new set of future CEO's.  Think of the bubbles we could have in the future with a new set of highly evolved CEO's!  Happy days are here again!</p><p>I mean, who learns in public school because they *like it*?  I read encyclopedias for fun and even I found public school to be the most boring shit imaginable.  And it's not because I wasn't challenged, there was plenty that I had to learn.  It's that it's sometimes hard to make a connection between what you are learning and where you are going to be in a decade or twenty years.</p><p>Of course, paying kids gives them a sense of entitlement, but hey, with free health care, corporate bailouts and the inability to maintain school discipline any more, we might as well just pay the little brats off.  It'll save time and the country can get the whole debt renunciation thing out of the way sooner.  Why spend tomorrow, when you can spend and go bankrupt today?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know... Seems silly to pay people to want to ensure their long term success.On the other hand , we pay them with welfare and unemployment benefits anyway .
Maybe twenty bucks to get that B + is n't such a bad idea after all .
Even if they are cheating on their tests , we are training a new set of future CEO 's .
Think of the bubbles we could have in the future with a new set of highly evolved CEO 's !
Happy days are here again ! I mean , who learns in public school because they * like it * ?
I read encyclopedias for fun and even I found public school to be the most boring shit imaginable .
And it 's not because I was n't challenged , there was plenty that I had to learn .
It 's that it 's sometimes hard to make a connection between what you are learning and where you are going to be in a decade or twenty years.Of course , paying kids gives them a sense of entitlement , but hey , with free health care , corporate bailouts and the inability to maintain school discipline any more , we might as well just pay the little brats off .
It 'll save time and the country can get the whole debt renunciation thing out of the way sooner .
Why spend tomorrow , when you can spend and go bankrupt today ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know... Seems silly to pay people to want to ensure their long term success.On the other hand, we pay them with welfare and unemployment benefits anyway.
Maybe twenty bucks to get that B+ isn't such a bad idea after all.
Even if they are cheating on their tests, we are training a new set of future CEO's.
Think of the bubbles we could have in the future with a new set of highly evolved CEO's!
Happy days are here again!I mean, who learns in public school because they *like it*?
I read encyclopedias for fun and even I found public school to be the most boring shit imaginable.
And it's not because I wasn't challenged, there was plenty that I had to learn.
It's that it's sometimes hard to make a connection between what you are learning and where you are going to be in a decade or twenty years.Of course, paying kids gives them a sense of entitlement, but hey, with free health care, corporate bailouts and the inability to maintain school discipline any more, we might as well just pay the little brats off.
It'll save time and the country can get the whole debt renunciation thing out of the way sooner.
Why spend tomorrow, when you can spend and go bankrupt today?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253947</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255739</id>
	<title>anonymous because i am late and no pay</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244452860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Since I am late to the comments game, the chance of modding up is low, and there is no intrinsic value, and therefore it is not worth for me to to risk receiving a less than 5 score grade.</p><p>I would have written something insightful, but now it is not worth it.</p><p>There are ramnifacation to introducing certain types of incentatives.</p><p>Also very important is the impact of how the students perceive knowledge sharing.<br>The competitive environment can cause students to be more closed and protective<br>believing they will then have a competitive advantage, where instead they would<br>benefit from learning in collaboration, sharing and teaching each other,<br>similar to what we do on slashdot very openly and freely.<br>(even despite of the point system which also motivates some,<br>but it takes experience to know the value and cost of such systems)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Since I am late to the comments game , the chance of modding up is low , and there is no intrinsic value , and therefore it is not worth for me to to risk receiving a less than 5 score grade.I would have written something insightful , but now it is not worth it.There are ramnifacation to introducing certain types of incentatives.Also very important is the impact of how the students perceive knowledge sharing.The competitive environment can cause students to be more closed and protectivebelieving they will then have a competitive advantage , where instead they wouldbenefit from learning in collaboration , sharing and teaching each other,similar to what we do on slashdot very openly and freely .
( even despite of the point system which also motivates some,but it takes experience to know the value and cost of such systems )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Since I am late to the comments game, the chance of modding up is low, and there is no intrinsic value, and therefore it is not worth for me to to risk receiving a less than 5 score grade.I would have written something insightful, but now it is not worth it.There are ramnifacation to introducing certain types of incentatives.Also very important is the impact of how the students perceive knowledge sharing.The competitive environment can cause students to be more closed and protectivebelieving they will then have a competitive advantage, where instead they wouldbenefit from learning in collaboration, sharing and teaching each other,similar to what we do on slashdot very openly and freely.
(even despite of the point system which also motivates some,but it takes experience to know the value and cost of such systems)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</id>
	<title>weird</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244489160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When some kids were getting paid for grades ($5 for a B, $10 for an A when I was a kid). My parents refused. They would tell me that it was expected of me to get good grades, and I didn't deserve a reward for doing what I was supposed to be doing anyways.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When some kids were getting paid for grades ( $ 5 for a B , $ 10 for an A when I was a kid ) .
My parents refused .
They would tell me that it was expected of me to get good grades , and I did n't deserve a reward for doing what I was supposed to be doing anyways .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When some kids were getting paid for grades ($5 for a B, $10 for an A when I was a kid).
My parents refused.
They would tell me that it was expected of me to get good grades, and I didn't deserve a reward for doing what I was supposed to be doing anyways.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254349</id>
	<title>Re:Don't kid yourelves</title>
	<author>Sardak</author>
	<datestamp>1244491440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That pretty well describes my experience when I was still in school.  By the age of 6, I was already writing BASIC programs, reading encyclopedias for fun, and watching The Learning Channel and Discovery instead of cartoons.  When I finally did start school, they of course started with absolutely primitive things that no longer interested me, so I didn't bother trying.  Anything that was given to me during the class to work on I would finish and do excellently just because I had nowhere else to go and nothing else to do.  It probably didn't help that in first grade they thought I was retarded and were about to move me to a special class, but then later found out that I was just about blind and needed glasses.<br> <br>
I continued this route throughout the rest of my K-12 schooling, finding everything exceptionally boring.  Another major factor is that, being quite a nerd/geek, I was essentially ostracized by my peers whenever I actually did well in class.  And even now, many years after having finished all of that, I don't regret it one bit, because the vast majority of what they were teaching has proven to be useless anyway.  I think schools would be more successful and useful if they focused on teaching kids how to learn things themselves and where to research topics and whatnot, rather than general education that is all over the place.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That pretty well describes my experience when I was still in school .
By the age of 6 , I was already writing BASIC programs , reading encyclopedias for fun , and watching The Learning Channel and Discovery instead of cartoons .
When I finally did start school , they of course started with absolutely primitive things that no longer interested me , so I did n't bother trying .
Anything that was given to me during the class to work on I would finish and do excellently just because I had nowhere else to go and nothing else to do .
It probably did n't help that in first grade they thought I was retarded and were about to move me to a special class , but then later found out that I was just about blind and needed glasses .
I continued this route throughout the rest of my K-12 schooling , finding everything exceptionally boring .
Another major factor is that , being quite a nerd/geek , I was essentially ostracized by my peers whenever I actually did well in class .
And even now , many years after having finished all of that , I do n't regret it one bit , because the vast majority of what they were teaching has proven to be useless anyway .
I think schools would be more successful and useful if they focused on teaching kids how to learn things themselves and where to research topics and whatnot , rather than general education that is all over the place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That pretty well describes my experience when I was still in school.
By the age of 6, I was already writing BASIC programs, reading encyclopedias for fun, and watching The Learning Channel and Discovery instead of cartoons.
When I finally did start school, they of course started with absolutely primitive things that no longer interested me, so I didn't bother trying.
Anything that was given to me during the class to work on I would finish and do excellently just because I had nowhere else to go and nothing else to do.
It probably didn't help that in first grade they thought I was retarded and were about to move me to a special class, but then later found out that I was just about blind and needed glasses.
I continued this route throughout the rest of my K-12 schooling, finding everything exceptionally boring.
Another major factor is that, being quite a nerd/geek, I was essentially ostracized by my peers whenever I actually did well in class.
And even now, many years after having finished all of that, I don't regret it one bit, because the vast majority of what they were teaching has proven to be useless anyway.
I think schools would be more successful and useful if they focused on teaching kids how to learn things themselves and where to research topics and whatnot, rather than general education that is all over the place.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253847</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256617</id>
	<title>Re:I had straight 8's all the way through highscho</title>
	<author>shaitand</author>
	<datestamp>1244455680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>'Even if they are getting better grades, it is developing a sense of entitlement, which will be far more damaging than bad grades in the future. The world in general seems to already suffer from an overdose of self-entitlement.'</p><p>You may be right. But none of that has anything to do with school. Schools are not to mold your children into anything good or bad. Schools are to impart a knowledge of logic, history, mathematics, science, language, etc. Making the child they impart that knowledge upon a decent person is the parents problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>'Even if they are getting better grades , it is developing a sense of entitlement , which will be far more damaging than bad grades in the future .
The world in general seems to already suffer from an overdose of self-entitlement .
'You may be right .
But none of that has anything to do with school .
Schools are not to mold your children into anything good or bad .
Schools are to impart a knowledge of logic , history , mathematics , science , language , etc .
Making the child they impart that knowledge upon a decent person is the parents problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>'Even if they are getting better grades, it is developing a sense of entitlement, which will be far more damaging than bad grades in the future.
The world in general seems to already suffer from an overdose of self-entitlement.
'You may be right.
But none of that has anything to do with school.
Schools are not to mold your children into anything good or bad.
Schools are to impart a knowledge of logic, history, mathematics, science, language, etc.
Making the child they impart that knowledge upon a decent person is the parents problem.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253755</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28260427</id>
	<title>High Poverty Areas</title>
	<author>ghetto2ivy</author>
	<datestamp>1244474820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>What happens when the kids performance becomes an important contribution to family income? Then the kid actually can't score well on a subject and ?

What happens when a kid hits the news for being beaten by a parent for not scoring well?

What happens when kids cheat to score higher? What happens when its easier to mug the kid who did well then to be the kid that did well?

Its a piss poor solution to complex problem.</htmltext>
<tokenext>What happens when the kids performance becomes an important contribution to family income ?
Then the kid actually ca n't score well on a subject and ?
What happens when a kid hits the news for being beaten by a parent for not scoring well ?
What happens when kids cheat to score higher ?
What happens when its easier to mug the kid who did well then to be the kid that did well ?
Its a piss poor solution to complex problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What happens when the kids performance becomes an important contribution to family income?
Then the kid actually can't score well on a subject and ?
What happens when a kid hits the news for being beaten by a parent for not scoring well?
What happens when kids cheat to score higher?
What happens when its easier to mug the kid who did well then to be the kid that did well?
Its a piss poor solution to complex problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28269541</id>
	<title>Ask yourself who REALLY profits?</title>
	<author>dmmiller2k</author>
	<datestamp>1244576460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This isn't about the kids who perform better. It's about the schools who by essentially bribing students to study for specific tests, show higher test scores, qualifying them for increased aid under NCLB.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is n't about the kids who perform better .
It 's about the schools who by essentially bribing students to study for specific tests , show higher test scores , qualifying them for increased aid under NCLB .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This isn't about the kids who perform better.
It's about the schools who by essentially bribing students to study for specific tests, show higher test scores, qualifying them for increased aid under NCLB.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253667</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253977</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244489820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That tends to be the case with a fixed reinforcement schedule (e.g. get a good grade, get a reward every time). But with a variable reinforcement schedule (e.g. get a good grade, SOMETIMES get a reward), I'm sure that the desired behavior of getting good grades would be less likely to fade out so quickly. It's still a tad bit uncomfortable treating schools like a big <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant\_conditioning\_chamber" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">skinner box</a> [wikipedia.org] but whatever works.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That tends to be the case with a fixed reinforcement schedule ( e.g .
get a good grade , get a reward every time ) .
But with a variable reinforcement schedule ( e.g .
get a good grade , SOMETIMES get a reward ) , I 'm sure that the desired behavior of getting good grades would be less likely to fade out so quickly .
It 's still a tad bit uncomfortable treating schools like a big skinner box [ wikipedia.org ] but whatever works .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That tends to be the case with a fixed reinforcement schedule (e.g.
get a good grade, get a reward every time).
But with a variable reinforcement schedule (e.g.
get a good grade, SOMETIMES get a reward), I'm sure that the desired behavior of getting good grades would be less likely to fade out so quickly.
It's still a tad bit uncomfortable treating schools like a big skinner box [wikipedia.org] but whatever works.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253907</id>
	<title>Re:Education's sake?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244489520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hell, I only got a degree so I could put off working another six years (what?  change majors a few times, and you too can turn a four-year stint in lazy paradise into six years).<br> <br>I think this is a great idea.  I bet it's pretty damn cost-effective, too.  We could improve results while cutting some of the overripe plums in school budgets.<br> <br>I wonder how much something like this would be resisted by the teachers' unions?  It seems the teachers are big fans, since it motivates the students... but in the long run, I could see the unions getting very upset, since it allows for some method of improving education that does not stem directly from teachers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hell , I only got a degree so I could put off working another six years ( what ?
change majors a few times , and you too can turn a four-year stint in lazy paradise into six years ) .
I think this is a great idea .
I bet it 's pretty damn cost-effective , too .
We could improve results while cutting some of the overripe plums in school budgets .
I wonder how much something like this would be resisted by the teachers ' unions ?
It seems the teachers are big fans , since it motivates the students... but in the long run , I could see the unions getting very upset , since it allows for some method of improving education that does not stem directly from teachers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hell, I only got a degree so I could put off working another six years (what?
change majors a few times, and you too can turn a four-year stint in lazy paradise into six years).
I think this is a great idea.
I bet it's pretty damn cost-effective, too.
We could improve results while cutting some of the overripe plums in school budgets.
I wonder how much something like this would be resisted by the teachers' unions?
It seems the teachers are big fans, since it motivates the students... but in the long run, I could see the unions getting very upset, since it allows for some method of improving education that does not stem directly from teachers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253637</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28262951</id>
	<title>Re:Scores may go up, but I doubt comprehension is</title>
	<author>jonaskoelker</author>
	<datestamp>1244541600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It shows that kids have no passion for the material if the adults have to resort to bribes to get them to study.</p></div><p>Imagine yourself in prison from 8 to 14 every day, where the wardens are the judge, jury and executioners all in one, where there's no appeal process.  Here's a soccer ball.  Do you feel like playing with your inmates?  We also have a book on the history of Turkmenistan.  Do you feel like reading?  Well, you have to.  And you have to develop an understanding of what you read.</p><p>Such is the life of school: you're forced to be there, you're forced to learn what is presented to you, you have no choice, no freedom and no justice. Do you <em>seriously</em> expect kids to be motivated?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It shows that kids have no passion for the material if the adults have to resort to bribes to get them to study.Imagine yourself in prison from 8 to 14 every day , where the wardens are the judge , jury and executioners all in one , where there 's no appeal process .
Here 's a soccer ball .
Do you feel like playing with your inmates ?
We also have a book on the history of Turkmenistan .
Do you feel like reading ?
Well , you have to .
And you have to develop an understanding of what you read.Such is the life of school : you 're forced to be there , you 're forced to learn what is presented to you , you have no choice , no freedom and no justice .
Do you seriously expect kids to be motivated ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It shows that kids have no passion for the material if the adults have to resort to bribes to get them to study.Imagine yourself in prison from 8 to 14 every day, where the wardens are the judge, jury and executioners all in one, where there's no appeal process.
Here's a soccer ball.
Do you feel like playing with your inmates?
We also have a book on the history of Turkmenistan.
Do you feel like reading?
Well, you have to.
And you have to develop an understanding of what you read.Such is the life of school: you're forced to be there, you're forced to learn what is presented to you, you have no choice, no freedom and no justice.
Do you seriously expect kids to be motivated?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253717</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255031</id>
	<title>Re:Look in the mirror</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244494080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When the hell was our society *not* about consumerism, greed or status seeking? I wish people would stop pining about a time that never was and realize that <em>healthy</em> (and sometimes unhealthy) self-interest is responsible for the luxuries of our time that we take for granted. Any technological advance of our time has been funded by - a) profiteering businessmen/women (esp porn), b) the military machine.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When the hell was our society * not * about consumerism , greed or status seeking ?
I wish people would stop pining about a time that never was and realize that healthy ( and sometimes unhealthy ) self-interest is responsible for the luxuries of our time that we take for granted .
Any technological advance of our time has been funded by - a ) profiteering businessmen/women ( esp porn ) , b ) the military machine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When the hell was our society *not* about consumerism, greed or status seeking?
I wish people would stop pining about a time that never was and realize that healthy (and sometimes unhealthy) self-interest is responsible for the luxuries of our time that we take for granted.
Any technological advance of our time has been funded by - a) profiteering businessmen/women (esp porn), b) the military machine.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253947</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253847</id>
	<title>Don't kid yourelves</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244489340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Before all you young parents rejoice at this newfound panacea, I can tell you for certain that it is not even close to being a sure fire solution. There are none. We've tried paying for grades, getting angry, being cool, punishing, withholding desired things, rewarding, ignoring, cajoling, helping, you name it. For most kinds, one or more of these techniques will work, unless you are blessed with kids that do their schoolwork on their own without you having to lift a finger. There are such kids out there, oddly enough. Two of our three kids do well in school, partly as a result of such standard parenting techniques. However, we have one child who, in around 7th grade, decided homework was a useless and profoundly irritating burden, so he stopped doing it. All of it. He is now a junior in high school and gets mainly Fs, except in music which he enjoys so he gets an A, usually. He consistently scores at or above the 97th percentile in the numerous standardized tests that kids take these days, including the PSAT. He will soon start taking the SAT and will presumably do well enough.<p>
The catch, of course, is that 60\% or more of his school grades are contributed by homework. Achieving 60\% or less of the class credits gets you an F. So, here's a case where the kid does well on tests, usually getting As and Bs, but consistently gets Fs overall. He knows the material better than most of his peers, but is failing. I don't buy the BS that homework is an important life lesson that prepares you for the future, blah blah blah. I do realize, and my son either doesn't or just doesn't care, that any college education worth getting requires a lot of homework.</p><p>
We know of at least one other child among his peers with pretty much the same picture. Neither cares much for monetary incentives.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Before all you young parents rejoice at this newfound panacea , I can tell you for certain that it is not even close to being a sure fire solution .
There are none .
We 've tried paying for grades , getting angry , being cool , punishing , withholding desired things , rewarding , ignoring , cajoling , helping , you name it .
For most kinds , one or more of these techniques will work , unless you are blessed with kids that do their schoolwork on their own without you having to lift a finger .
There are such kids out there , oddly enough .
Two of our three kids do well in school , partly as a result of such standard parenting techniques .
However , we have one child who , in around 7th grade , decided homework was a useless and profoundly irritating burden , so he stopped doing it .
All of it .
He is now a junior in high school and gets mainly Fs , except in music which he enjoys so he gets an A , usually .
He consistently scores at or above the 97th percentile in the numerous standardized tests that kids take these days , including the PSAT .
He will soon start taking the SAT and will presumably do well enough .
The catch , of course , is that 60 \ % or more of his school grades are contributed by homework .
Achieving 60 \ % or less of the class credits gets you an F. So , here 's a case where the kid does well on tests , usually getting As and Bs , but consistently gets Fs overall .
He knows the material better than most of his peers , but is failing .
I do n't buy the BS that homework is an important life lesson that prepares you for the future , blah blah blah .
I do realize , and my son either does n't or just does n't care , that any college education worth getting requires a lot of homework .
We know of at least one other child among his peers with pretty much the same picture .
Neither cares much for monetary incentives .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Before all you young parents rejoice at this newfound panacea, I can tell you for certain that it is not even close to being a sure fire solution.
There are none.
We've tried paying for grades, getting angry, being cool, punishing, withholding desired things, rewarding, ignoring, cajoling, helping, you name it.
For most kinds, one or more of these techniques will work, unless you are blessed with kids that do their schoolwork on their own without you having to lift a finger.
There are such kids out there, oddly enough.
Two of our three kids do well in school, partly as a result of such standard parenting techniques.
However, we have one child who, in around 7th grade, decided homework was a useless and profoundly irritating burden, so he stopped doing it.
All of it.
He is now a junior in high school and gets mainly Fs, except in music which he enjoys so he gets an A, usually.
He consistently scores at or above the 97th percentile in the numerous standardized tests that kids take these days, including the PSAT.
He will soon start taking the SAT and will presumably do well enough.
The catch, of course, is that 60\% or more of his school grades are contributed by homework.
Achieving 60\% or less of the class credits gets you an F. So, here's a case where the kid does well on tests, usually getting As and Bs, but consistently gets Fs overall.
He knows the material better than most of his peers, but is failing.
I don't buy the BS that homework is an important life lesson that prepares you for the future, blah blah blah.
I do realize, and my son either doesn't or just doesn't care, that any college education worth getting requires a lot of homework.
We know of at least one other child among his peers with pretty much the same picture.
Neither cares much for monetary incentives.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254491</id>
	<title>Re:Compete with drugs</title>
	<author>Reziac</author>
	<datestamp>1244492040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As I recall it's been tried before -- stay in school, stay off drugs, and we'll pay you $$ at graduation. I don't recall the details but in POOR neighbourhoods it had good short-term gains. Rich kids -- not so, where's the incentive in cash when you already have everything??</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As I recall it 's been tried before -- stay in school , stay off drugs , and we 'll pay you $ $ at graduation .
I do n't recall the details but in POOR neighbourhoods it had good short-term gains .
Rich kids -- not so , where 's the incentive in cash when you already have everything ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As I recall it's been tried before -- stay in school, stay off drugs, and we'll pay you $$ at graduation.
I don't recall the details but in POOR neighbourhoods it had good short-term gains.
Rich kids -- not so, where's the incentive in cash when you already have everything?
?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253973</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254351</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>sackvillian</author>
	<datestamp>1244491440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>That's similar to the study mentioned in either Blink or Freakonomics (pardon, I forget which) on a daycare centre that instituted a small fine if parents were late for their children.

This soon caused an increase in lateness because parents could, in effect, buy off their guilt for slighting their children.  What's more, removing the fine later caused an even larger increase in lateness.

It seems that when you cross the line from the emotional-value realm into the realm of, say, traditional economics motivated by competition and greed, you not only encounter unexpected circumstances but you also may not be able to go back.

And personally, I think the latter realm is not where we want education to be.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's similar to the study mentioned in either Blink or Freakonomics ( pardon , I forget which ) on a daycare centre that instituted a small fine if parents were late for their children .
This soon caused an increase in lateness because parents could , in effect , buy off their guilt for slighting their children .
What 's more , removing the fine later caused an even larger increase in lateness .
It seems that when you cross the line from the emotional-value realm into the realm of , say , traditional economics motivated by competition and greed , you not only encounter unexpected circumstances but you also may not be able to go back .
And personally , I think the latter realm is not where we want education to be .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's similar to the study mentioned in either Blink or Freakonomics (pardon, I forget which) on a daycare centre that instituted a small fine if parents were late for their children.
This soon caused an increase in lateness because parents could, in effect, buy off their guilt for slighting their children.
What's more, removing the fine later caused an even larger increase in lateness.
It seems that when you cross the line from the emotional-value realm into the realm of, say, traditional economics motivated by competition and greed, you not only encounter unexpected circumstances but you also may not be able to go back.
And personally, I think the latter realm is not where we want education to be.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28265681</id>
	<title>ShashDot: The worst source for education news</title>
	<author>ceolaf</author>
	<datestamp>1244562480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>OH MY GOD is that poorly written.</p><p>There's the idiot who wrote it for the New York Post and the idiot who wrote it up for slashdot.</p><p>Three of biggest examples of the idiocy, in reverse order of stupidity:</p><p>1) The story is not about kids scores going up by 40 points. The story is about the percentage of kids "passing" the test going up by 40 points. If a lot of kids are near-but-below the passing mark, scores could go up by just a couple of points and yield a 40\% increase in the passing rate. (Obviously, an extreme way to  make the point, but there clearly was nothing like a 40 point increase by the kids).</p><p>2) Sample size. That almost-40\% number is just at one school. Any one who knows anything about statistics and/or testing knows that small schools are the most likely to see wide swings, showing the greatest gains in passing rate and the greatest losses. One of two schools cited in the story has about 65 kid/grade. That's a small school, even by the "small school" standard. The other school also has less than 100 kid/grade. If you don't understand this stuff, you should not be writing about testing or statistics of any sort.</p><p>3) Why doesn't the story report the overall impact? Why doesn't the story report the overall increase in the participating schools compared to the rest of the city? I don't mean controlling for factors, just a straight comparison? (I'll tell you why: a quarter of the school showed LESS improvement in math and a third showed less improvement in reading. At least the story mentioned that.) We all know that scores were up city-wide.</p><p>I'm not even getting into testing issues, pedagogical issues, developmental issues or the sustainability of these gains. I am just talking about the reporting.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>OH MY GOD is that poorly written.There 's the idiot who wrote it for the New York Post and the idiot who wrote it up for slashdot.Three of biggest examples of the idiocy , in reverse order of stupidity : 1 ) The story is not about kids scores going up by 40 points .
The story is about the percentage of kids " passing " the test going up by 40 points .
If a lot of kids are near-but-below the passing mark , scores could go up by just a couple of points and yield a 40 \ % increase in the passing rate .
( Obviously , an extreme way to make the point , but there clearly was nothing like a 40 point increase by the kids ) .2 ) Sample size .
That almost-40 \ % number is just at one school .
Any one who knows anything about statistics and/or testing knows that small schools are the most likely to see wide swings , showing the greatest gains in passing rate and the greatest losses .
One of two schools cited in the story has about 65 kid/grade .
That 's a small school , even by the " small school " standard .
The other school also has less than 100 kid/grade .
If you do n't understand this stuff , you should not be writing about testing or statistics of any sort.3 ) Why does n't the story report the overall impact ?
Why does n't the story report the overall increase in the participating schools compared to the rest of the city ?
I do n't mean controlling for factors , just a straight comparison ?
( I 'll tell you why : a quarter of the school showed LESS improvement in math and a third showed less improvement in reading .
At least the story mentioned that .
) We all know that scores were up city-wide.I 'm not even getting into testing issues , pedagogical issues , developmental issues or the sustainability of these gains .
I am just talking about the reporting .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>OH MY GOD is that poorly written.There's the idiot who wrote it for the New York Post and the idiot who wrote it up for slashdot.Three of biggest examples of the idiocy, in reverse order of stupidity:1) The story is not about kids scores going up by 40 points.
The story is about the percentage of kids "passing" the test going up by 40 points.
If a lot of kids are near-but-below the passing mark, scores could go up by just a couple of points and yield a 40\% increase in the passing rate.
(Obviously, an extreme way to  make the point, but there clearly was nothing like a 40 point increase by the kids).2) Sample size.
That almost-40\% number is just at one school.
Any one who knows anything about statistics and/or testing knows that small schools are the most likely to see wide swings, showing the greatest gains in passing rate and the greatest losses.
One of two schools cited in the story has about 65 kid/grade.
That's a small school, even by the "small school" standard.
The other school also has less than 100 kid/grade.
If you don't understand this stuff, you should not be writing about testing or statistics of any sort.3) Why doesn't the story report the overall impact?
Why doesn't the story report the overall increase in the participating schools compared to the rest of the city?
I don't mean controlling for factors, just a straight comparison?
(I'll tell you why: a quarter of the school showed LESS improvement in math and a third showed less improvement in reading.
At least the story mentioned that.
) We all know that scores were up city-wide.I'm not even getting into testing issues, pedagogical issues, developmental issues or the sustainability of these gains.
I am just talking about the reporting.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253833</id>
	<title>Re:Dang...</title>
	<author>infosinger</author>
	<datestamp>1244489280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If we get stupid, do we have to give the money back?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If we get stupid , do we have to give the money back ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If we get stupid, do we have to give the money back?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253649</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255079</id>
	<title>Re:Scores may go up, but I doubt comprehension is</title>
	<author>composer777</author>
	<datestamp>1244494200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why is there such a negative reaction to paying people for their work?  I find it difficult to comprehend.  Maybe their expectations about what a society should be like, and what it should provide, will go up.  Is that a bad thing?  Even if they have now learned enough in school to actually fulfill some of those expectations?  Why is intrinsic motivation better than extrinsic, and further, how exactly can any sane individual draw a line between the two?  I love programming computers, have programmed on vacation, but can also do it for pay.  There's no contradiction there, and one doesn't diminish the other.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is there such a negative reaction to paying people for their work ?
I find it difficult to comprehend .
Maybe their expectations about what a society should be like , and what it should provide , will go up .
Is that a bad thing ?
Even if they have now learned enough in school to actually fulfill some of those expectations ?
Why is intrinsic motivation better than extrinsic , and further , how exactly can any sane individual draw a line between the two ?
I love programming computers , have programmed on vacation , but can also do it for pay .
There 's no contradiction there , and one does n't diminish the other .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is there such a negative reaction to paying people for their work?
I find it difficult to comprehend.
Maybe their expectations about what a society should be like, and what it should provide, will go up.
Is that a bad thing?
Even if they have now learned enough in school to actually fulfill some of those expectations?
Why is intrinsic motivation better than extrinsic, and further, how exactly can any sane individual draw a line between the two?
I love programming computers, have programmed on vacation, but can also do it for pay.
There's no contradiction there, and one doesn't diminish the other.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253717</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255007</id>
	<title>Re:Who'da thunk?</title>
	<author>jmorris42</author>
	<datestamp>1244493960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; I will be very glad when the whole PC mentality gets scrapped.</p><p>Oh you silly silly person.  It won't be scrapped, it will simply absorb this program.  Just watch and learn... and despair.  IT will work something like this:</p><p>1.  It will work wonders.  Duh, incentives work.</p><p>2.  Democratic Socialists, Teachers Unions, Politically Correct types of all sorts will set out to undermine it.  The idea is dangerous.</p><p>3.  People will find cases where the 'correct' division of the rewards aren't occurring.  The usual suspects will be OUTRAGED!  Protests will be staged.  The 'problem' will be 'solved' by race and gender norming the rewards to ensure exactly equal representation.</p><p>4.  The 'everybody is a winner' crowd will (probably already are) be whining about the unfairness of it all.  The 'special' classes will of course be declared to be ' all winners' within a year and get the maximum reward.</p><p>5.  It of course will be totally unfair that some get no reward so a base pay will be mandated.  Initially they will allow us to 'compromise with them' and only grant the money to kids who actually show up at school on a semi regular basis.  But that requirement will be silently discarded through various slight of hand tricks and outright ignoring of the agreement.</p><p>6.  And of course, as the past head of the AFT is on record saying, the teachers are the purpose of the schools and any money going into those buildings is going to wind up in their pockets.  So now that the students have a known source of income the schools can nickel and dime the hell out of em until the base pay is properly flowing into the school's budget.  And by lowering the merit part and raising the base eventually we will eventually have 'fairness' where five years from now the best and brightest students end up with an extra fifty inflation wrecked dollars in their pocket every year.</p><p>7.  And the kids will learn the correct lesson from watching the whole mess go from great idea to crap.   The system is hosed, achievement will be punished and resistence is futile.  The individual is nothing, the Group everything.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; I will be very glad when the whole PC mentality gets scrapped.Oh you silly silly person .
It wo n't be scrapped , it will simply absorb this program .
Just watch and learn... and despair .
IT will work something like this : 1 .
It will work wonders .
Duh , incentives work.2 .
Democratic Socialists , Teachers Unions , Politically Correct types of all sorts will set out to undermine it .
The idea is dangerous.3 .
People will find cases where the 'correct ' division of the rewards are n't occurring .
The usual suspects will be OUTRAGED !
Protests will be staged .
The 'problem ' will be 'solved ' by race and gender norming the rewards to ensure exactly equal representation.4 .
The 'everybody is a winner ' crowd will ( probably already are ) be whining about the unfairness of it all .
The 'special ' classes will of course be declared to be ' all winners ' within a year and get the maximum reward.5 .
It of course will be totally unfair that some get no reward so a base pay will be mandated .
Initially they will allow us to 'compromise with them ' and only grant the money to kids who actually show up at school on a semi regular basis .
But that requirement will be silently discarded through various slight of hand tricks and outright ignoring of the agreement.6 .
And of course , as the past head of the AFT is on record saying , the teachers are the purpose of the schools and any money going into those buildings is going to wind up in their pockets .
So now that the students have a known source of income the schools can nickel and dime the hell out of em until the base pay is properly flowing into the school 's budget .
And by lowering the merit part and raising the base eventually we will eventually have 'fairness ' where five years from now the best and brightest students end up with an extra fifty inflation wrecked dollars in their pocket every year.7 .
And the kids will learn the correct lesson from watching the whole mess go from great idea to crap .
The system is hosed , achievement will be punished and resistence is futile .
The individual is nothing , the Group everything .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; I will be very glad when the whole PC mentality gets scrapped.Oh you silly silly person.
It won't be scrapped, it will simply absorb this program.
Just watch and learn... and despair.
IT will work something like this:1.
It will work wonders.
Duh, incentives work.2.
Democratic Socialists, Teachers Unions, Politically Correct types of all sorts will set out to undermine it.
The idea is dangerous.3.
People will find cases where the 'correct' division of the rewards aren't occurring.
The usual suspects will be OUTRAGED!
Protests will be staged.
The 'problem' will be 'solved' by race and gender norming the rewards to ensure exactly equal representation.4.
The 'everybody is a winner' crowd will (probably already are) be whining about the unfairness of it all.
The 'special' classes will of course be declared to be ' all winners' within a year and get the maximum reward.5.
It of course will be totally unfair that some get no reward so a base pay will be mandated.
Initially they will allow us to 'compromise with them' and only grant the money to kids who actually show up at school on a semi regular basis.
But that requirement will be silently discarded through various slight of hand tricks and outright ignoring of the agreement.6.
And of course, as the past head of the AFT is on record saying, the teachers are the purpose of the schools and any money going into those buildings is going to wind up in their pockets.
So now that the students have a known source of income the schools can nickel and dime the hell out of em until the base pay is properly flowing into the school's budget.
And by lowering the merit part and raising the base eventually we will eventually have 'fairness' where five years from now the best and brightest students end up with an extra fifty inflation wrecked dollars in their pocket every year.7.
And the kids will learn the correct lesson from watching the whole mess go from great idea to crap.
The system is hosed, achievement will be punished and resistence is futile.
The individual is nothing, the Group everything.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253739</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28258029</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>pablodiazgutierrez</author>
	<datestamp>1244461020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lucky you. When I was in school, I had to hide any hint of satisfaction when I got good grades. Some idiot even came to rub it in my face when I got mediocre ones because normally I would "make them look bad". It was all a game of trying to learn while pretending not to be paying attention, or caring for it, because if you did, you'd be out of friends. High school, at least in my side of town in Spain (and I wasn't in any ghettoish place) was an odd experience.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lucky you .
When I was in school , I had to hide any hint of satisfaction when I got good grades .
Some idiot even came to rub it in my face when I got mediocre ones because normally I would " make them look bad " .
It was all a game of trying to learn while pretending not to be paying attention , or caring for it , because if you did , you 'd be out of friends .
High school , at least in my side of town in Spain ( and I was n't in any ghettoish place ) was an odd experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lucky you.
When I was in school, I had to hide any hint of satisfaction when I got good grades.
Some idiot even came to rub it in my face when I got mediocre ones because normally I would "make them look bad".
It was all a game of trying to learn while pretending not to be paying attention, or caring for it, because if you did, you'd be out of friends.
High school, at least in my side of town in Spain (and I wasn't in any ghettoish place) was an odd experience.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254459</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254375</id>
	<title>Re:I had straight 8's all the way through highscho</title>
	<author>tnk1</author>
	<datestamp>1244491500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You collect at the poker table.  I hear having all 4 of the 8's is a really good hand.  Of course, as in school, having all four A's is better, so avoid playing nerds.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You collect at the poker table .
I hear having all 4 of the 8 's is a really good hand .
Of course , as in school , having all four A 's is better , so avoid playing nerds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You collect at the poker table.
I hear having all 4 of the 8's is a really good hand.
Of course, as in school, having all four A's is better, so avoid playing nerds.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253755</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254591</id>
	<title>subsidizing what?</title>
	<author>Tim4444</author>
	<datestamp>1244492460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This will certainly make it easier for kids to get the money to pay other people to do their homework.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This will certainly make it easier for kids to get the money to pay other people to do their homework .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This will certainly make it easier for kids to get the money to pay other people to do their homework.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255619</id>
	<title>Re:Don't kid yourelves</title>
	<author>mdarksbane</author>
	<datestamp>1244452500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If he's that smart, just get him on a track working somewhere where he doesn't feel like it's a waste, that has some sort of path from low-end to decent job (lower-middle management, at least). Sales might be good, depending.</p><p>Once he's worked a few years and figured himself out, he can get into a community or online college, get his degree (because now he realizes it might mean something) and go on with his life and be perfectly successful, assuming he actually *does* have some sort of work ethic for things that aren't school.</p><p>I have several friends who dropped out of school because they considered it pointless who are getting along fairly well this way. As long as he gets skills in something that will eventually translate to a living job (ie, doesn't spend all his time working at a coffee shop whining about not getting his liberal arts degree, or worse yet, paying off his half of a liberal arts degree) he can be fine. There are paths other than immediately going to college - someone with actual smarts who can take something seriously, even if it isn't school, can still do well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If he 's that smart , just get him on a track working somewhere where he does n't feel like it 's a waste , that has some sort of path from low-end to decent job ( lower-middle management , at least ) .
Sales might be good , depending.Once he 's worked a few years and figured himself out , he can get into a community or online college , get his degree ( because now he realizes it might mean something ) and go on with his life and be perfectly successful , assuming he actually * does * have some sort of work ethic for things that are n't school.I have several friends who dropped out of school because they considered it pointless who are getting along fairly well this way .
As long as he gets skills in something that will eventually translate to a living job ( ie , does n't spend all his time working at a coffee shop whining about not getting his liberal arts degree , or worse yet , paying off his half of a liberal arts degree ) he can be fine .
There are paths other than immediately going to college - someone with actual smarts who can take something seriously , even if it is n't school , can still do well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If he's that smart, just get him on a track working somewhere where he doesn't feel like it's a waste, that has some sort of path from low-end to decent job (lower-middle management, at least).
Sales might be good, depending.Once he's worked a few years and figured himself out, he can get into a community or online college, get his degree (because now he realizes it might mean something) and go on with his life and be perfectly successful, assuming he actually *does* have some sort of work ethic for things that aren't school.I have several friends who dropped out of school because they considered it pointless who are getting along fairly well this way.
As long as he gets skills in something that will eventually translate to a living job (ie, doesn't spend all his time working at a coffee shop whining about not getting his liberal arts degree, or worse yet, paying off his half of a liberal arts degree) he can be fine.
There are paths other than immediately going to college - someone with actual smarts who can take something seriously, even if it isn't school, can still do well.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253847</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255503</id>
	<title>Similar at my old High School</title>
	<author>Omniscient Lurker</author>
	<datestamp>1244452140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My high school (and all others in my county) paid $40 for every AP test that you made a 4 or 5 on. We had some of the best AP test grades in our region of the state (except the Euro test, every fails that one). On calculus the year I took it no one made less than a 4, most were 5's.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My high school ( and all others in my county ) paid $ 40 for every AP test that you made a 4 or 5 on .
We had some of the best AP test grades in our region of the state ( except the Euro test , every fails that one ) .
On calculus the year I took it no one made less than a 4 , most were 5 's .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My high school (and all others in my county) paid $40 for every AP test that you made a 4 or 5 on.
We had some of the best AP test grades in our region of the state (except the Euro test, every fails that one).
On calculus the year I took it no one made less than a 4, most were 5's.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254215</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>SixFactor</author>
	<datestamp>1244490840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Amen to that.  I've told my kids that their parents have jobs: I am the breadwinner, while mom manages the household.  It is therefore their job to attend school.   I get performance reviews at work (while mom is of course, exempt from such<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D).  It is therefore important for them to do well at school, and grades, like it or not, reflect that progress.
<br> <br>
Seems to me that the financial incentive has two functions: while it can clearly be a motivator (that likely promotes only short-term and shallow learning; but that's another discussion), it is also an indicator of how parents value (or de-value) education.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Amen to that .
I 've told my kids that their parents have jobs : I am the breadwinner , while mom manages the household .
It is therefore their job to attend school .
I get performance reviews at work ( while mom is of course , exempt from such : D ) .
It is therefore important for them to do well at school , and grades , like it or not , reflect that progress .
Seems to me that the financial incentive has two functions : while it can clearly be a motivator ( that likely promotes only short-term and shallow learning ; but that 's another discussion ) , it is also an indicator of how parents value ( or de-value ) education .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Amen to that.
I've told my kids that their parents have jobs: I am the breadwinner, while mom manages the household.
It is therefore their job to attend school.
I get performance reviews at work (while mom is of course, exempt from such :D).
It is therefore important for them to do well at school, and grades, like it or not, reflect that progress.
Seems to me that the financial incentive has two functions: while it can clearly be a motivator (that likely promotes only short-term and shallow learning; but that's another discussion), it is also an indicator of how parents value (or de-value) education.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254225</id>
	<title>Re:Oh man...</title>
	<author>derGoldstein</author>
	<datestamp>1244490900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm just glad this wasn't instated in my school, my ass couldn't afford it...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm just glad this was n't instated in my school , my ass could n't afford it.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm just glad this wasn't instated in my school, my ass couldn't afford it...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253643</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257827</id>
	<title>Re:Thinking not required for good grades.</title>
	<author>PitaBred</author>
	<datestamp>1244460240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The problem is, there are a lot of people that don't want to think. The vast majority of people are like that. Why do you think vapid shit like "American Idol" and "Deal or No Deal?" are still getting millions of viewers, and intellectually interesting shows like Firefly where there's an actual plot and dialogue and story get canceled? Shit, I changed channel to "Deal or No Deal" last night as I was surfing and there was a fucking chimpanzee that they had to either agree or disagree with the damn contestant. Next step, <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/" title="imdb.com">"Ass", the movie</a> [imdb.com]. Kids will NOT get the intrinsic value of learning from their family life, or from their friends who have the same style of family life. We need to give them some reason to do something other than skate through, and a financial reward for doing well is something they can grasp with their meager attention spans and strong desire to not think hard about anything. Why do you think people go to church? Somebody tells them what to think about God and morality. It's easier that way.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is , there are a lot of people that do n't want to think .
The vast majority of people are like that .
Why do you think vapid shit like " American Idol " and " Deal or No Deal ?
" are still getting millions of viewers , and intellectually interesting shows like Firefly where there 's an actual plot and dialogue and story get canceled ?
Shit , I changed channel to " Deal or No Deal " last night as I was surfing and there was a fucking chimpanzee that they had to either agree or disagree with the damn contestant .
Next step , " Ass " , the movie [ imdb.com ] .
Kids will NOT get the intrinsic value of learning from their family life , or from their friends who have the same style of family life .
We need to give them some reason to do something other than skate through , and a financial reward for doing well is something they can grasp with their meager attention spans and strong desire to not think hard about anything .
Why do you think people go to church ?
Somebody tells them what to think about God and morality .
It 's easier that way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is, there are a lot of people that don't want to think.
The vast majority of people are like that.
Why do you think vapid shit like "American Idol" and "Deal or No Deal?
" are still getting millions of viewers, and intellectually interesting shows like Firefly where there's an actual plot and dialogue and story get canceled?
Shit, I changed channel to "Deal or No Deal" last night as I was surfing and there was a fucking chimpanzee that they had to either agree or disagree with the damn contestant.
Next step, "Ass", the movie [imdb.com].
Kids will NOT get the intrinsic value of learning from their family life, or from their friends who have the same style of family life.
We need to give them some reason to do something other than skate through, and a financial reward for doing well is something they can grasp with their meager attention spans and strong desire to not think hard about anything.
Why do you think people go to church?
Somebody tells them what to think about God and morality.
It's easier that way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255219</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253765</id>
	<title>Re:Oh man...</title>
	<author>conspirator57</author>
	<datestamp>1244488980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>actually, with the US debt the way it is, if you're an American someone does own your ass.  by simple division every American owes $37,225, making no account for earning power.  problem is, no one knows exactly who owns your ass.  the government's kinda like the problem securities market that way.  there's no way to trace who owns each of us (or rather owns about 1 year of each of our lives.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>actually , with the US debt the way it is , if you 're an American someone does own your ass .
by simple division every American owes $ 37,225 , making no account for earning power .
problem is , no one knows exactly who owns your ass .
the government 's kinda like the problem securities market that way .
there 's no way to trace who owns each of us ( or rather owns about 1 year of each of our lives .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>actually, with the US debt the way it is, if you're an American someone does own your ass.
by simple division every American owes $37,225, making no account for earning power.
problem is, no one knows exactly who owns your ass.
the government's kinda like the problem securities market that way.
there's no way to trace who owns each of us (or rather owns about 1 year of each of our lives.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253643</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28260803</id>
	<title>Neat idea!</title>
	<author>hackshack</author>
	<datestamp>1244476740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sounds like a neat idea. It's like a little career, before your real career. Maybe this would motivate some kids that are otherwise thinking, "why should I do well in school?" Sort of a sampler as to what could happen if you work hard.</p><p>Of course, there's the cheating/collusion/milking the system angle. One would have to put in some pretty intense safeguards. Anyone clever enough to get past them, well, heck, maybe they earned it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sounds like a neat idea .
It 's like a little career , before your real career .
Maybe this would motivate some kids that are otherwise thinking , " why should I do well in school ?
" Sort of a sampler as to what could happen if you work hard.Of course , there 's the cheating/collusion/milking the system angle .
One would have to put in some pretty intense safeguards .
Anyone clever enough to get past them , well , heck , maybe they earned it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sounds like a neat idea.
It's like a little career, before your real career.
Maybe this would motivate some kids that are otherwise thinking, "why should I do well in school?
" Sort of a sampler as to what could happen if you work hard.Of course, there's the cheating/collusion/milking the system angle.
One would have to put in some pretty intense safeguards.
Anyone clever enough to get past them, well, heck, maybe they earned it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254235</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>xZgf6xHx2uhoAj9D</author>
	<datestamp>1244490900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Thankfully the working world doesn't work like that. "What do you mean you want a salary? You did exactly what I asked you to do! I'm not paying my employees for that!"</htmltext>
<tokenext>Thankfully the working world does n't work like that .
" What do you mean you want a salary ?
You did exactly what I asked you to do !
I 'm not paying my employees for that !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thankfully the working world doesn't work like that.
"What do you mean you want a salary?
You did exactly what I asked you to do!
I'm not paying my employees for that!
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254223</id>
	<title>It makes academic success immediately tangible.</title>
	<author>maillemaker</author>
	<datestamp>1244490900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think this is a fantastic idea.</p><p>Many kids see no immediate positive benefit to education.  I know I didn't as a kid.  Oh, sure, I knew that "In order to get a good job, you need to go to college!" but I didn't really feel that my efforts got me any semi-immediate gratification.  I mean, you're telling a teenager or younger to put out efforts for something that is years, or even decades, away for them.</p><p>Put an immediate, serious benefit within their grasp of months and you will see a lot of kids go for it.</p><p>The only thing that made me perform in school was fear of my parents' retribution for failure.  Lots of kids don't get that encouragement so I think this is a wise use of school money.</p><p>I bet it pays better dividends, dollar for dollar, than pay raises for teachers.  Paying teachers more might make them better teachers, which might impact their students.  Paying students for good grades will DEFINITELY improve motivation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think this is a fantastic idea.Many kids see no immediate positive benefit to education .
I know I did n't as a kid .
Oh , sure , I knew that " In order to get a good job , you need to go to college !
" but I did n't really feel that my efforts got me any semi-immediate gratification .
I mean , you 're telling a teenager or younger to put out efforts for something that is years , or even decades , away for them.Put an immediate , serious benefit within their grasp of months and you will see a lot of kids go for it.The only thing that made me perform in school was fear of my parents ' retribution for failure .
Lots of kids do n't get that encouragement so I think this is a wise use of school money.I bet it pays better dividends , dollar for dollar , than pay raises for teachers .
Paying teachers more might make them better teachers , which might impact their students .
Paying students for good grades will DEFINITELY improve motivation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think this is a fantastic idea.Many kids see no immediate positive benefit to education.
I know I didn't as a kid.
Oh, sure, I knew that "In order to get a good job, you need to go to college!
" but I didn't really feel that my efforts got me any semi-immediate gratification.
I mean, you're telling a teenager or younger to put out efforts for something that is years, or even decades, away for them.Put an immediate, serious benefit within their grasp of months and you will see a lot of kids go for it.The only thing that made me perform in school was fear of my parents' retribution for failure.
Lots of kids don't get that encouragement so I think this is a wise use of school money.I bet it pays better dividends, dollar for dollar, than pay raises for teachers.
Paying teachers more might make them better teachers, which might impact their students.
Paying students for good grades will DEFINITELY improve motivation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257097</id>
	<title>Re:Scores may go up, but I doubt comprehension is</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244457480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I've seen firsthand that people without passion for science/engineering, who only go into for the money or because their parents force them to, tend to make pretty shitty engineers and scientists...</p></div><p>Shitty Engineers and Scientists still earn more money than the average artist and most school teachers.  Companies have no "passion" for their employees.  Many people don't work long-term in their degree field, and most people are unhappy with their career field after 30 years.  </p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've seen firsthand that people without passion for science/engineering , who only go into for the money or because their parents force them to , tend to make pretty shitty engineers and scientists...Shitty Engineers and Scientists still earn more money than the average artist and most school teachers .
Companies have no " passion " for their employees .
Many people do n't work long-term in their degree field , and most people are unhappy with their career field after 30 years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've seen firsthand that people without passion for science/engineering, who only go into for the money or because their parents force them to, tend to make pretty shitty engineers and scientists...Shitty Engineers and Scientists still earn more money than the average artist and most school teachers.
Companies have no "passion" for their employees.
Many people don't work long-term in their degree field, and most people are unhappy with their career field after 30 years.  
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253717</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256417</id>
	<title>Hmmm...</title>
	<author>petrus4</author>
	<datestamp>1244455020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html" title="gnu.org">Interesting</a> [gnu.org], wouldn't you say?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Interesting [ gnu.org ] , would n't you say ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Interesting [gnu.org], wouldn't you say?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254395</id>
	<title>Re:I had straight 8's all the way through highscho</title>
	<author>John Hasler</author>
	<datestamp>1244491620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; Seriously though, why is paying someone to do what they already should be doing, a good<br>&gt; idea?</p><p>Punishing them for not doing it is better?  That's the alternative.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; Seriously though , why is paying someone to do what they already should be doing , a good &gt; idea ? Punishing them for not doing it is better ?
That 's the alternative .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; Seriously though, why is paying someone to do what they already should be doing, a good&gt; idea?Punishing them for not doing it is better?
That's the alternative.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253755</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254489</id>
	<title>pay for grades?</title>
	<author>gsmraxe</author>
	<datestamp>1244492040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Christ this is bad, they get more for good grades than the company I work for gives out for bonuses.</p><p>I always got good grades so my Mom didn't beat my ass and ground me for 6 weeks til the NEXT report card.  Some years I was grounded for an entire semester.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Christ this is bad , they get more for good grades than the company I work for gives out for bonuses.I always got good grades so my Mom did n't beat my ass and ground me for 6 weeks til the NEXT report card .
Some years I was grounded for an entire semester .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Christ this is bad, they get more for good grades than the company I work for gives out for bonuses.I always got good grades so my Mom didn't beat my ass and ground me for 6 weeks til the NEXT report card.
Some years I was grounded for an entire semester.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28258149</id>
	<title>So does this mean...</title>
	<author>kenh</author>
	<datestamp>1244461620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...that merit pay for teachers is just around the corner? Heavens no - perish the thought!</p><p>As a father (and tax payer), I don't like the idea. There are high-minded philosophical issues I have with this, but on a more practical level, is this really what we want to do with our kids? And what happens when the payments stop (will they stop)? What's next, paying people for public service/volunteer work? (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/world/americas/02iht-campaign.4.14179758.html)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...that merit pay for teachers is just around the corner ?
Heavens no - perish the thought ! As a father ( and tax payer ) , I do n't like the idea .
There are high-minded philosophical issues I have with this , but on a more practical level , is this really what we want to do with our kids ?
And what happens when the payments stop ( will they stop ) ?
What 's next , paying people for public service/volunteer work ?
( http : //www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/world/americas/02iht-campaign.4.14179758.html )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...that merit pay for teachers is just around the corner?
Heavens no - perish the thought!As a father (and tax payer), I don't like the idea.
There are high-minded philosophical issues I have with this, but on a more practical level, is this really what we want to do with our kids?
And what happens when the payments stop (will they stop)?
What's next, paying people for public service/volunteer work?
(http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/world/americas/02iht-campaign.4.14179758.html)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256485</id>
	<title>Re:Motivation...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244455260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>this means that most students won't preform optimally without a reason to.<br>
&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp; I know I always looked at the kids who got straight As and wondered what made them do it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>this means that most students wo n't preform optimally without a reason to .
    I know I always looked at the kids who got straight As and wondered what made them do it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>this means that most students won't preform optimally without a reason to.
  
  I know I always looked at the kids who got straight As and wondered what made them do it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253787</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256587</id>
	<title>the interesting thing here...</title>
	<author>buddyglass</author>
	<datestamp>1244455560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>...is the 40\% increase.  That's a huge number. It means the kids are <i>capable</i> of performing 40\% higher than they currently are; they just fail to do so because they don't give a rat's ass about the tests.  What I wonder is whether kids in other countries aren't already performing closer to their "theoretical max"?  That is to say, U.S. kids don't under-perform their international peers <i>solely</i> due to a difference in ability, but also because of a difference in "giving a rat's ass about the tests".</htmltext>
<tokenext>...is the 40 \ % increase .
That 's a huge number .
It means the kids are capable of performing 40 \ % higher than they currently are ; they just fail to do so because they do n't give a rat 's ass about the tests .
What I wonder is whether kids in other countries are n't already performing closer to their " theoretical max " ?
That is to say , U.S. kids do n't under-perform their international peers solely due to a difference in ability , but also because of a difference in " giving a rat 's ass about the tests " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...is the 40\% increase.
That's a huge number.
It means the kids are capable of performing 40\% higher than they currently are; they just fail to do so because they don't give a rat's ass about the tests.
What I wonder is whether kids in other countries aren't already performing closer to their "theoretical max"?
That is to say, U.S. kids don't under-perform their international peers solely due to a difference in ability, but also because of a difference in "giving a rat's ass about the tests".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254923</id>
	<title>Not surprised</title>
	<author>Endo13</author>
	<datestamp>1244493660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Honestly I'm not surprised at this at all. And I also don't think it has much to do with "ego boosting". I think it has everything to do with making the kid feel like the test is not a pointless colossal waste of time. I know when I was a young kid in grade school tests certainly felt like that to me. Kids don't generally see the big picture and the long-term benefits of things. I also know that when I was a kid, if you gave me the choice between having fun or doing something extremely boring that would probably pay off in 10-20 years the choice was a no-brainer. However, getting paid gives a result almost immediately, and gives a kid access to things they may not get access to any other way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Honestly I 'm not surprised at this at all .
And I also do n't think it has much to do with " ego boosting " .
I think it has everything to do with making the kid feel like the test is not a pointless colossal waste of time .
I know when I was a young kid in grade school tests certainly felt like that to me .
Kids do n't generally see the big picture and the long-term benefits of things .
I also know that when I was a kid , if you gave me the choice between having fun or doing something extremely boring that would probably pay off in 10-20 years the choice was a no-brainer .
However , getting paid gives a result almost immediately , and gives a kid access to things they may not get access to any other way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Honestly I'm not surprised at this at all.
And I also don't think it has much to do with "ego boosting".
I think it has everything to do with making the kid feel like the test is not a pointless colossal waste of time.
I know when I was a young kid in grade school tests certainly felt like that to me.
Kids don't generally see the big picture and the long-term benefits of things.
I also know that when I was a kid, if you gave me the choice between having fun or doing something extremely boring that would probably pay off in 10-20 years the choice was a no-brainer.
However, getting paid gives a result almost immediately, and gives a kid access to things they may not get access to any other way.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256743</id>
	<title>Re:Scores may go up, but I doubt comprehension is</title>
	<author>PitaBred</author>
	<datestamp>1244456100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>So... you consider your paycheck a bribe? Why don't you just work without the corruption of being bribed to produce value for your company, aka, work for free? I don't think you've thought this whole "bribery" thing through. If kids are required to be at school, give them some kind of reward for doing a good job at it. It's basic human behavior... expecting kids to work their asses off learning when they see no benefit from it. Saying "If you work hard you'll get a good job in 10 years" isn't a reward. You could say that to an 8 year old, and that would be further away than they've even lived, much less been cognizant of themselves. There need to be shorter-term rewards for working hard, and just as importantly, LACK of those rewards for not working hard, and for not succeeding. The most important thing is to make the rewards dependent on results... just like everything else in this world.</htmltext>
<tokenext>So... you consider your paycheck a bribe ?
Why do n't you just work without the corruption of being bribed to produce value for your company , aka , work for free ?
I do n't think you 've thought this whole " bribery " thing through .
If kids are required to be at school , give them some kind of reward for doing a good job at it .
It 's basic human behavior... expecting kids to work their asses off learning when they see no benefit from it .
Saying " If you work hard you 'll get a good job in 10 years " is n't a reward .
You could say that to an 8 year old , and that would be further away than they 've even lived , much less been cognizant of themselves .
There need to be shorter-term rewards for working hard , and just as importantly , LACK of those rewards for not working hard , and for not succeeding .
The most important thing is to make the rewards dependent on results... just like everything else in this world .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So... you consider your paycheck a bribe?
Why don't you just work without the corruption of being bribed to produce value for your company, aka, work for free?
I don't think you've thought this whole "bribery" thing through.
If kids are required to be at school, give them some kind of reward for doing a good job at it.
It's basic human behavior... expecting kids to work their asses off learning when they see no benefit from it.
Saying "If you work hard you'll get a good job in 10 years" isn't a reward.
You could say that to an 8 year old, and that would be further away than they've even lived, much less been cognizant of themselves.
There need to be shorter-term rewards for working hard, and just as importantly, LACK of those rewards for not working hard, and for not succeeding.
The most important thing is to make the rewards dependent on results... just like everything else in this world.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254099</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28264345</id>
	<title>No,no,no....</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1244556360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree, in a perfect world, we should all just want to learn, we should not have to pay for anything, and life should be good.<br>Real world here though, people need incentive to do stuff, nothing is free and nothing is ever just good!</p><p>I say whatever turns their crank, it could be money today, WoW credits tomorrow, and tacos thursday...<br>in the end, it is a proven effective model that WoW uses, and makes a bizillion dollars with, the interest of the game comes from the cool accomplishments, gear or talents that comes from putting in the hours on your character....should be the same in real life...</p><p>Trust me, go into the ghetto and tell them you will pay them to go to school, and based on a system they will get money, you will see the biggest movement since MMOS hit the net. A ghetto girl gets 5000$ through out her  educational years...enough to<br>send her to college free for a few years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree , in a perfect world , we should all just want to learn , we should not have to pay for anything , and life should be good.Real world here though , people need incentive to do stuff , nothing is free and nothing is ever just good ! I say whatever turns their crank , it could be money today , WoW credits tomorrow , and tacos thursday...in the end , it is a proven effective model that WoW uses , and makes a bizillion dollars with , the interest of the game comes from the cool accomplishments , gear or talents that comes from putting in the hours on your character....should be the same in real life...Trust me , go into the ghetto and tell them you will pay them to go to school , and based on a system they will get money , you will see the biggest movement since MMOS hit the net .
A ghetto girl gets 5000 $ through out her educational years...enough tosend her to college free for a few years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree, in a perfect world, we should all just want to learn, we should not have to pay for anything, and life should be good.Real world here though, people need incentive to do stuff, nothing is free and nothing is ever just good!I say whatever turns their crank, it could be money today, WoW credits tomorrow, and tacos thursday...in the end, it is a proven effective model that WoW uses, and makes a bizillion dollars with, the interest of the game comes from the cool accomplishments, gear or talents that comes from putting in the hours on your character....should be the same in real life...Trust me, go into the ghetto and tell them you will pay them to go to school, and based on a system they will get money, you will see the biggest movement since MMOS hit the net.
A ghetto girl gets 5000$ through out her  educational years...enough tosend her to college free for a few years.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256279</id>
	<title>Money is what makes people's lives have value</title>
	<author>Gerzel</author>
	<datestamp>1244454480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nicely biased article stub.</p><p>The learning done and the benefit of the money is taken for granted, the article is merely proof of a fore-gone clonclusion,</p><p>Critics are put down directly as people who don't know an obvious fact.</p><p>And to top it off we have a nice cut kid smiling with some dollars.  Isn't it nice to know that she is worth that much money?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nicely biased article stub.The learning done and the benefit of the money is taken for granted , the article is merely proof of a fore-gone clonclusion,Critics are put down directly as people who do n't know an obvious fact.And to top it off we have a nice cut kid smiling with some dollars .
Is n't it nice to know that she is worth that much money ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nicely biased article stub.The learning done and the benefit of the money is taken for granted, the article is merely proof of a fore-gone clonclusion,Critics are put down directly as people who don't know an obvious fact.And to top it off we have a nice cut kid smiling with some dollars.
Isn't it nice to know that she is worth that much money?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28270257</id>
	<title>Our society is so broken...</title>
	<author>jonadab</author>
	<datestamp>1244579340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Okay, so a third-party agency now has to motivate kids to get their grades up?<br><br>Man, when I was a kid, your *parents* did that.<br><br>They had a variety of methods.  Some parents offered money for As and Bs.  Some parents *charged* money for Ds and Fs.  Some did both.  Some parents used other forms of positive encouragement and/or other penalties for failure.  A lot of kids just sort of *assumed* their parents would be upset if they flunked, and labored to avoid finding out any further details.  Others wanted their parents to be proud of them, and were willing to work for it.<br><br>What all of these things have in common is this:  the kids all knew that their parents *cared* about their grades, *and* the kids all knew that they personally were considered to be responsible for said grades.<br><br>Our parents used to help us with our homework, too.  Well, okay, most of the time all they really had to do was remind us that we actually had to sit down and do it, now, before we could go play.  But parents *did* this.  And they made it stick, too.  I was there.  I remember.  I didn't *like* doing homework, but I did it anyway.  I had to.<br><br>What has happened to our culture?  It's broken.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Okay , so a third-party agency now has to motivate kids to get their grades up ? Man , when I was a kid , your * parents * did that.They had a variety of methods .
Some parents offered money for As and Bs .
Some parents * charged * money for Ds and Fs .
Some did both .
Some parents used other forms of positive encouragement and/or other penalties for failure .
A lot of kids just sort of * assumed * their parents would be upset if they flunked , and labored to avoid finding out any further details .
Others wanted their parents to be proud of them , and were willing to work for it.What all of these things have in common is this : the kids all knew that their parents * cared * about their grades , * and * the kids all knew that they personally were considered to be responsible for said grades.Our parents used to help us with our homework , too .
Well , okay , most of the time all they really had to do was remind us that we actually had to sit down and do it , now , before we could go play .
But parents * did * this .
And they made it stick , too .
I was there .
I remember .
I did n't * like * doing homework , but I did it anyway .
I had to.What has happened to our culture ?
It 's broken .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Okay, so a third-party agency now has to motivate kids to get their grades up?Man, when I was a kid, your *parents* did that.They had a variety of methods.
Some parents offered money for As and Bs.
Some parents *charged* money for Ds and Fs.
Some did both.
Some parents used other forms of positive encouragement and/or other penalties for failure.
A lot of kids just sort of *assumed* their parents would be upset if they flunked, and labored to avoid finding out any further details.
Others wanted their parents to be proud of them, and were willing to work for it.What all of these things have in common is this:  the kids all knew that their parents *cared* about their grades, *and* the kids all knew that they personally were considered to be responsible for said grades.Our parents used to help us with our homework, too.
Well, okay, most of the time all they really had to do was remind us that we actually had to sit down and do it, now, before we could go play.
But parents *did* this.
And they made it stick, too.
I was there.
I remember.
I didn't *like* doing homework, but I did it anyway.
I had to.What has happened to our culture?
It's broken.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253885</id>
	<title>Re:yah</title>
	<author>Jonas Buyl</author>
	<datestamp>1244489460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There have to be other ways to motivate pupils other than paying them. By paying them, essentially what you're doing is showing education is useful, why not find some more reasons why certain knowledge is useful?
E.g. shows like Numb3rs should spark interest for maths.
Teaching kids they study only to earn money may shape them into well-earning materialists but it's not going to spark the creativity needed to create little Einsteins.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There have to be other ways to motivate pupils other than paying them .
By paying them , essentially what you 're doing is showing education is useful , why not find some more reasons why certain knowledge is useful ?
E.g. shows like Numb3rs should spark interest for maths .
Teaching kids they study only to earn money may shape them into well-earning materialists but it 's not going to spark the creativity needed to create little Einsteins .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There have to be other ways to motivate pupils other than paying them.
By paying them, essentially what you're doing is showing education is useful, why not find some more reasons why certain knowledge is useful?
E.g. shows like Numb3rs should spark interest for maths.
Teaching kids they study only to earn money may shape them into well-earning materialists but it's not going to spark the creativity needed to create little Einsteins.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253745</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253955</id>
	<title>Re-enforcing failure</title>
	<author>unlametheweak</author>
	<datestamp>1244489700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>When they get the checks, there's that competitiveness -- 'Oh, I'm going to get more money than you next time' -- so it's something that excites them," said Rose Marie Mills, principal at MS 343 in Mott Haven.</p></div><p>It does absolutely nothing for students who are uncompetitive or who view competition as something negative. It also hastens the failure of those who are already disadvantaged. If you can't compete (successfully) because of your home life or other circumstances, then this will just re-enforce the failure.</p><p>Again this is another example of incompetency getting promoted to leadership positions. If you need to pay people to achieve, then you aren't a very good teacher. If you want to merely train people to be good robotic workers in industry then schools need to focus less on the "3 Rs" (reading, writing and mathematics) and more on direct vocational training.</p><p>I do suspect that this protocol is a direct result of the school principal trying to meet and exceed quotas. Of course I could be wrong, but it seems more often than not that these short-sited, pop-psychology social engineering methods are often used as a gimmick for career advancement.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>When they get the checks , there 's that competitiveness -- 'Oh , I 'm going to get more money than you next time ' -- so it 's something that excites them , " said Rose Marie Mills , principal at MS 343 in Mott Haven.It does absolutely nothing for students who are uncompetitive or who view competition as something negative .
It also hastens the failure of those who are already disadvantaged .
If you ca n't compete ( successfully ) because of your home life or other circumstances , then this will just re-enforce the failure.Again this is another example of incompetency getting promoted to leadership positions .
If you need to pay people to achieve , then you are n't a very good teacher .
If you want to merely train people to be good robotic workers in industry then schools need to focus less on the " 3 Rs " ( reading , writing and mathematics ) and more on direct vocational training.I do suspect that this protocol is a direct result of the school principal trying to meet and exceed quotas .
Of course I could be wrong , but it seems more often than not that these short-sited , pop-psychology social engineering methods are often used as a gimmick for career advancement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When they get the checks, there's that competitiveness -- 'Oh, I'm going to get more money than you next time' -- so it's something that excites them," said Rose Marie Mills, principal at MS 343 in Mott Haven.It does absolutely nothing for students who are uncompetitive or who view competition as something negative.
It also hastens the failure of those who are already disadvantaged.
If you can't compete (successfully) because of your home life or other circumstances, then this will just re-enforce the failure.Again this is another example of incompetency getting promoted to leadership positions.
If you need to pay people to achieve, then you aren't a very good teacher.
If you want to merely train people to be good robotic workers in industry then schools need to focus less on the "3 Rs" (reading, writing and mathematics) and more on direct vocational training.I do suspect that this protocol is a direct result of the school principal trying to meet and exceed quotas.
Of course I could be wrong, but it seems more often than not that these short-sited, pop-psychology social engineering methods are often used as a gimmick for career advancement.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253801</id>
	<title>Personal Experience..</title>
	<author>bossvader</author>
	<datestamp>1244489160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Right or Wrong my nieces grades have started to climb as soon as I started a "Grade Bounty". It has brought focus, and there is more motivation other than just Mom hounding her. I am slowing ratcheting up the bar, sort of got her hooked as a freshman in High School and going to make Sophomore bar a little higher and so on. Far as I am concerned money well spent. Cracked me up when she asked Mom if I was really Uncle was really going to pay up...I said you get the grades...I will pay up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Right or Wrong my nieces grades have started to climb as soon as I started a " Grade Bounty " .
It has brought focus , and there is more motivation other than just Mom hounding her .
I am slowing ratcheting up the bar , sort of got her hooked as a freshman in High School and going to make Sophomore bar a little higher and so on .
Far as I am concerned money well spent .
Cracked me up when she asked Mom if I was really Uncle was really going to pay up...I said you get the grades...I will pay up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Right or Wrong my nieces grades have started to climb as soon as I started a "Grade Bounty".
It has brought focus, and there is more motivation other than just Mom hounding her.
I am slowing ratcheting up the bar, sort of got her hooked as a freshman in High School and going to make Sophomore bar a little higher and so on.
Far as I am concerned money well spent.
Cracked me up when she asked Mom if I was really Uncle was really going to pay up...I said you get the grades...I will pay up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253781</id>
	<title>Quite the upgrade from my childhood!</title>
	<author>imajinarie</author>
	<datestamp>1244489100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>...and to think I worked hard for just the annual "Book-It" Pizza Hut party!   Really, though, if kids come to expect this as the norm, what will the NEXT incentive need to be to entice them to take more difficult and challenging classes (which may be harder to get the higher grades in, comparatively)?  But, in a way, this is kind of like the bonus system used at many corporations...  if you meet certain milestones which are above the standard, you gain more recognition accordingly.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...and to think I worked hard for just the annual " Book-It " Pizza Hut party !
Really , though , if kids come to expect this as the norm , what will the NEXT incentive need to be to entice them to take more difficult and challenging classes ( which may be harder to get the higher grades in , comparatively ) ?
But , in a way , this is kind of like the bonus system used at many corporations... if you meet certain milestones which are above the standard , you gain more recognition accordingly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...and to think I worked hard for just the annual "Book-It" Pizza Hut party!
Really, though, if kids come to expect this as the norm, what will the NEXT incentive need to be to entice them to take more difficult and challenging classes (which may be harder to get the higher grades in, comparatively)?
But, in a way, this is kind of like the bonus system used at many corporations...  if you meet certain milestones which are above the standard, you gain more recognition accordingly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257549</id>
	<title>Re:Scores may go up, but I doubt comprehension is</title>
	<author>gbarules2999</author>
	<datestamp>1244459220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>cram as much information in as possible right before the exam, and I would be willing to bet most forget most of it in a week.</p></div><p>

It's already like that, though. With money, they'll tend to cram a bit harder, and maybe something will stick. That's the idea.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>cram as much information in as possible right before the exam , and I would be willing to bet most forget most of it in a week .
It 's already like that , though .
With money , they 'll tend to cram a bit harder , and maybe something will stick .
That 's the idea .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>cram as much information in as possible right before the exam, and I would be willing to bet most forget most of it in a week.
It's already like that, though.
With money, they'll tend to cram a bit harder, and maybe something will stick.
That's the idea.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253717</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253793</id>
	<title>High-poverty</title>
	<author>PMuse</author>
	<datestamp>1244489160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>From TFA:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>About two-thirds of the 59 <b>high-poverty schools</b> in the Sparks program -- which pays seventh-graders up to $500 and fourth-graders as much as $250 for their performance on a total of 10 assessments -- improved their scores since last year's state tests by margins above the citywide average.</p></div><ol> <li>Find a sample population with no money and lousy grades.</li><li>Pay students $$ for grades.</li><li>Record artificially large grade-improvements.  Declare a panacea.</li><li>???</li><li>Profit.</li></ol></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>From TFA : About two-thirds of the 59 high-poverty schools in the Sparks program -- which pays seventh-graders up to $ 500 and fourth-graders as much as $ 250 for their performance on a total of 10 assessments -- improved their scores since last year 's state tests by margins above the citywide average .
Find a sample population with no money and lousy grades.Pay students $ $ for grades.Record artificially large grade-improvements .
Declare a panacea. ? ?
? Profit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From TFA:About two-thirds of the 59 high-poverty schools in the Sparks program -- which pays seventh-graders up to $500 and fourth-graders as much as $250 for their performance on a total of 10 assessments -- improved their scores since last year's state tests by margins above the citywide average.
Find a sample population with no money and lousy grades.Pay students $$ for grades.Record artificially large grade-improvements.
Declare a panacea.??
?Profit.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254497</id>
	<title>alternative explanation</title>
	<author>bugi</author>
	<datestamp>1244492100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe money gets kids' attention.  If so, perhaps it's just a matter of making the material interesting.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe money gets kids ' attention .
If so , perhaps it 's just a matter of making the material interesting .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe money gets kids' attention.
If so, perhaps it's just a matter of making the material interesting.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28262589</id>
	<title>obscene</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244580600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>this is far too much money to give kids of that age anyway. This age group would be happy with $5. Hell, my daughter's teacher once rewarded the class with sweets for a good test - the excitement this caused was amazing.<br>There will be problems because of this - too much of a big reward -&gt; they will become demotivated as soon as they don't get $500. Then it'll be HELL for the parents &amp; teachers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>this is far too much money to give kids of that age anyway .
This age group would be happy with $ 5 .
Hell , my daughter 's teacher once rewarded the class with sweets for a good test - the excitement this caused was amazing.There will be problems because of this - too much of a big reward - &gt; they will become demotivated as soon as they do n't get $ 500 .
Then it 'll be HELL for the parents &amp; teachers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>this is far too much money to give kids of that age anyway.
This age group would be happy with $5.
Hell, my daughter's teacher once rewarded the class with sweets for a good test - the excitement this caused was amazing.There will be problems because of this - too much of a big reward -&gt; they will become demotivated as soon as they don't get $500.
Then it'll be HELL for the parents &amp; teachers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256037</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244453820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>When I was in school, the motivators were desire to please our teachers, desire to do well in our classmates' eyes (there was a LOT of peer pressure to get good grades), and somewhat less desire to please our parents. It was expected behaviour and how we *earned* something rather more valuable -- self-esteem and the recognition that we COULD do this stuff.</p><p>The kids who did get paid by their parents for grade performance tended to slack off <b>when the money lost its interest</b>. The rest of us -- peer pressure never ends. It was ALWAYS embarrassing to fail, in the eyes of our peers or of our teachers.</p></div><p>Emphasis mine.  My parents paid me for grades and I never lost interest in it.  When I was growing up we never had any money.  The money was always important if I wanted anything special (nice toy, cheap crappy used car, etc).  By the time my youngest brother was growing up we had more money (because my mom went back to work) and getting paid for grades didn't motivate him at all.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was in school , the motivators were desire to please our teachers , desire to do well in our classmates ' eyes ( there was a LOT of peer pressure to get good grades ) , and somewhat less desire to please our parents .
It was expected behaviour and how we * earned * something rather more valuable -- self-esteem and the recognition that we COULD do this stuff.The kids who did get paid by their parents for grade performance tended to slack off when the money lost its interest .
The rest of us -- peer pressure never ends .
It was ALWAYS embarrassing to fail , in the eyes of our peers or of our teachers.Emphasis mine .
My parents paid me for grades and I never lost interest in it .
When I was growing up we never had any money .
The money was always important if I wanted anything special ( nice toy , cheap crappy used car , etc ) .
By the time my youngest brother was growing up we had more money ( because my mom went back to work ) and getting paid for grades did n't motivate him at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was in school, the motivators were desire to please our teachers, desire to do well in our classmates' eyes (there was a LOT of peer pressure to get good grades), and somewhat less desire to please our parents.
It was expected behaviour and how we *earned* something rather more valuable -- self-esteem and the recognition that we COULD do this stuff.The kids who did get paid by their parents for grade performance tended to slack off when the money lost its interest.
The rest of us -- peer pressure never ends.
It was ALWAYS embarrassing to fail, in the eyes of our peers or of our teachers.Emphasis mine.
My parents paid me for grades and I never lost interest in it.
When I was growing up we never had any money.
The money was always important if I wanted anything special (nice toy, cheap crappy used car, etc).
By the time my youngest brother was growing up we had more money (because my mom went back to work) and getting paid for grades didn't motivate him at all.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254459</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255725</id>
	<title>Re:Education's sake?</title>
	<author>Khashishi</author>
	<datestamp>1244452860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What's your trick?</p></div><p>Parents. Plus, he's still living in the basement.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What 's your trick ? Parents .
Plus , he 's still living in the basement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What's your trick?Parents.
Plus, he's still living in the basement.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254577</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28259129</id>
	<title>Re:short-sightedness.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244467440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you think far enough ahead, everyone dies eventually and nothing you do matters. Get over yourself.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you think far enough ahead , everyone dies eventually and nothing you do matters .
Get over yourself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you think far enough ahead, everyone dies eventually and nothing you do matters.
Get over yourself.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253927</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28263737</id>
	<title>I agree with the critics</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244551680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>and think we should stop paying everyone, such that they can find the joy of working for the work itself and not just the pay.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and think we should stop paying everyone , such that they can find the joy of working for the work itself and not just the pay .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and think we should stop paying everyone, such that they can find the joy of working for the work itself and not just the pay.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256603</id>
	<title>One other point...</title>
	<author>petrus4</author>
	<datestamp>1244455680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The education system isn't about education.  It's about penal reform.</p><p>When kids are born, their instinctive emotional responses, their ability to be idealistic, and their ability to believe that they can change things for the better, are all intact, because at first they don't know better.  I remember one example during my first or second year at school when I didn't want to engage in some of the activities we were doing in class; that was when the dichotomy began to be imprinted, between what I wanted, and what everyone else wanted me to do.</p><p>The entire purpose of the education system is to beat anything out of a child that doesn't conform, and this economic program could just be seen as getting the proverbial indentured servitude started that much earlier.  The bastards at the top of the heap actually prefer beginning to indoctrinate kids as young as they can, because they know the truth of the words of Uncle Joe.  "Give me a child until he is 5 years old, and you may do what you will with him thereafter."</p><p>During school, kids get allotted the place in the social hierarchy which they very often occupy for the rest of their lives, and God help you if you're not inherently an athlete with around a 130 IQ.  You actually ironically don't want to be far above 130, though; because virtually nobody else is, so if you are, it just makes you look like a freak.</p><p>The education system for me was purely about psychological survival, and I very nearly <b>didn't</b> survive; I spent two months in a psychiatric inpatient unit after leaving, and probably another six months in outpatient therapy after that.  I went very close to insanity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The education system is n't about education .
It 's about penal reform.When kids are born , their instinctive emotional responses , their ability to be idealistic , and their ability to believe that they can change things for the better , are all intact , because at first they do n't know better .
I remember one example during my first or second year at school when I did n't want to engage in some of the activities we were doing in class ; that was when the dichotomy began to be imprinted , between what I wanted , and what everyone else wanted me to do.The entire purpose of the education system is to beat anything out of a child that does n't conform , and this economic program could just be seen as getting the proverbial indentured servitude started that much earlier .
The bastards at the top of the heap actually prefer beginning to indoctrinate kids as young as they can , because they know the truth of the words of Uncle Joe .
" Give me a child until he is 5 years old , and you may do what you will with him thereafter .
" During school , kids get allotted the place in the social hierarchy which they very often occupy for the rest of their lives , and God help you if you 're not inherently an athlete with around a 130 IQ .
You actually ironically do n't want to be far above 130 , though ; because virtually nobody else is , so if you are , it just makes you look like a freak.The education system for me was purely about psychological survival , and I very nearly did n't survive ; I spent two months in a psychiatric inpatient unit after leaving , and probably another six months in outpatient therapy after that .
I went very close to insanity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The education system isn't about education.
It's about penal reform.When kids are born, their instinctive emotional responses, their ability to be idealistic, and their ability to believe that they can change things for the better, are all intact, because at first they don't know better.
I remember one example during my first or second year at school when I didn't want to engage in some of the activities we were doing in class; that was when the dichotomy began to be imprinted, between what I wanted, and what everyone else wanted me to do.The entire purpose of the education system is to beat anything out of a child that doesn't conform, and this economic program could just be seen as getting the proverbial indentured servitude started that much earlier.
The bastards at the top of the heap actually prefer beginning to indoctrinate kids as young as they can, because they know the truth of the words of Uncle Joe.
"Give me a child until he is 5 years old, and you may do what you will with him thereafter.
"During school, kids get allotted the place in the social hierarchy which they very often occupy for the rest of their lives, and God help you if you're not inherently an athlete with around a 130 IQ.
You actually ironically don't want to be far above 130, though; because virtually nobody else is, so if you are, it just makes you look like a freak.The education system for me was purely about psychological survival, and I very nearly didn't survive; I spent two months in a psychiatric inpatient unit after leaving, and probably another six months in outpatient therapy after that.
I went very close to insanity.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256215</id>
	<title>Thank the Federal Government for this one.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244454300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been a long time reader of Slashdot and held off on most comments, because the topic of discussion is often beyond my area of expertise, I'd feel out of place trying to add an intellectual comment on a topic I'm not adequately informed in.  However, this is one that as a long time educator I am comfortable with.  For those wanting to know more about the source of the problem, below is a rough overview:</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1) No Child Left Behind  (NCLB) is passed as Federal Legislation.  Requiring States to reach increasingly higher levels in Math &amp; Reading (Overview: http://www.ed.gov/admins/lead/account/ayp203/edlite-slide001.html)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2) School are forced to track and improve at a state level.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3) Each year the target grows (eventually reaching 100\% by 2014), school that fail to meet this Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP) are penalized.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4) Each year it is tougher for schools to reach the target on these Assessment tests, thus they risk losing money if students don't perform.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5) Article is linked on Slashdot regarding students getting paid for performance, those reading it closely will see that it's due to the NCLB &amp; AYP requirements.</p><p>As a school, a lost student is 4-8 thousand dollars of lost revenue, so paying $500 or $250 per student to insure that they meet AYP and continue receiving their larger revenue is a short term business decision to survive a flawed piece of Federal (unfunded) legislation.</p><p>I'm not defending what the school is doing, but the biggest problem is getting students who don't care about tests or school to care about THIS test, as for many schools we are far enough into the program that they are facing penalties for not making AYP. If you can find a way to motivate students, who have the ability, but not desire, to do well on a federally mandated assessment, the schools would love to listen. I can assure you most schools have tried all the common sense means and smaller tricks to motivate these kids. Just one more example of big government trying to run things from DC without really understanding the long term ramifications of their decisions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been a long time reader of Slashdot and held off on most comments , because the topic of discussion is often beyond my area of expertise , I 'd feel out of place trying to add an intellectual comment on a topic I 'm not adequately informed in .
However , this is one that as a long time educator I am comfortable with .
For those wanting to know more about the source of the problem , below is a rough overview :           1 ) No Child Left Behind ( NCLB ) is passed as Federal Legislation .
Requiring States to reach increasingly higher levels in Math &amp; Reading ( Overview : http : //www.ed.gov/admins/lead/account/ayp203/edlite-slide001.html )           2 ) School are forced to track and improve at a state level .
          3 ) Each year the target grows ( eventually reaching 100 \ % by 2014 ) , school that fail to meet this Adequate Yearly Progress ( AYP ) are penalized .
          4 ) Each year it is tougher for schools to reach the target on these Assessment tests , thus they risk losing money if students do n't perform .
          5 ) Article is linked on Slashdot regarding students getting paid for performance , those reading it closely will see that it 's due to the NCLB &amp; AYP requirements.As a school , a lost student is 4-8 thousand dollars of lost revenue , so paying $ 500 or $ 250 per student to insure that they meet AYP and continue receiving their larger revenue is a short term business decision to survive a flawed piece of Federal ( unfunded ) legislation.I 'm not defending what the school is doing , but the biggest problem is getting students who do n't care about tests or school to care about THIS test , as for many schools we are far enough into the program that they are facing penalties for not making AYP .
If you can find a way to motivate students , who have the ability , but not desire , to do well on a federally mandated assessment , the schools would love to listen .
I can assure you most schools have tried all the common sense means and smaller tricks to motivate these kids .
Just one more example of big government trying to run things from DC without really understanding the long term ramifications of their decisions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been a long time reader of Slashdot and held off on most comments, because the topic of discussion is often beyond my area of expertise, I'd feel out of place trying to add an intellectual comment on a topic I'm not adequately informed in.
However, this is one that as a long time educator I am comfortable with.
For those wanting to know more about the source of the problem, below is a rough overview:
          1) No Child Left Behind  (NCLB) is passed as Federal Legislation.
Requiring States to reach increasingly higher levels in Math &amp; Reading (Overview: http://www.ed.gov/admins/lead/account/ayp203/edlite-slide001.html)
          2) School are forced to track and improve at a state level.
          3) Each year the target grows (eventually reaching 100\% by 2014), school that fail to meet this Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP) are penalized.
          4) Each year it is tougher for schools to reach the target on these Assessment tests, thus they risk losing money if students don't perform.
          5) Article is linked on Slashdot regarding students getting paid for performance, those reading it closely will see that it's due to the NCLB &amp; AYP requirements.As a school, a lost student is 4-8 thousand dollars of lost revenue, so paying $500 or $250 per student to insure that they meet AYP and continue receiving their larger revenue is a short term business decision to survive a flawed piece of Federal (unfunded) legislation.I'm not defending what the school is doing, but the biggest problem is getting students who don't care about tests or school to care about THIS test, as for many schools we are far enough into the program that they are facing penalties for not making AYP.
If you can find a way to motivate students, who have the ability, but not desire, to do well on a federally mandated assessment, the schools would love to listen.
I can assure you most schools have tried all the common sense means and smaller tricks to motivate these kids.
Just one more example of big government trying to run things from DC without really understanding the long term ramifications of their decisions.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253667</id>
	<title>Combine this with school choice</title>
	<author>ewg</author>
	<datestamp>1244488740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Before long children will be asking to transfer to the schools that pay the best.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Before long children will be asking to transfer to the schools that pay the best .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Before long children will be asking to transfer to the schools that pay the best.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28258577</id>
	<title>Re:Education's sake?</title>
	<author>Red Flayer</author>
	<datestamp>1244463720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Lazy paradise? I remember a foggy sleep-deprived existence that involved short naps between busting ass. <b>What's your trick?</b></p></div> </blockquote><p>It was getting ass-busting undergrads to do underpaid work while I reap the profits.  Mwua-ha-ha.<br> <br>Seriously... there were and still are lots of opportunities for the bright and lazy to put the work of their fellow students to good use.  Running a sysadmin service was a good one when I was in school.<br> <br>Laziness, after all, is the driver of much innovation.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Lazy paradise ?
I remember a foggy sleep-deprived existence that involved short naps between busting ass .
What 's your trick ?
It was getting ass-busting undergrads to do underpaid work while I reap the profits .
Mwua-ha-ha. Seriously... there were and still are lots of opportunities for the bright and lazy to put the work of their fellow students to good use .
Running a sysadmin service was a good one when I was in school .
Laziness , after all , is the driver of much innovation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lazy paradise?
I remember a foggy sleep-deprived existence that involved short naps between busting ass.
What's your trick?
It was getting ass-busting undergrads to do underpaid work while I reap the profits.
Mwua-ha-ha. Seriously... there were and still are lots of opportunities for the bright and lazy to put the work of their fellow students to good use.
Running a sysadmin service was a good one when I was in school.
Laziness, after all, is the driver of much innovation.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254577</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254049</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>mveloso</author>
	<datestamp>1244490060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, but for 99\% of the people on earth, the intrinsic motivation of their day job is somewhere near 0\%. So get them used to that now, when they're kids.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , but for 99 \ % of the people on earth , the intrinsic motivation of their day job is somewhere near 0 \ % .
So get them used to that now , when they 're kids .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, but for 99\% of the people on earth, the intrinsic motivation of their day job is somewhere near 0\%.
So get them used to that now, when they're kids.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257953</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>pablodiazgutierrez</author>
	<datestamp>1244460720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ditto. All I ever got was an ice cream the last day of classes. They were obviously happy that I was doing well, but they didn't have to reward me in any other way. But then again, they always made it so that learning was fun and challenging.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ditto .
All I ever got was an ice cream the last day of classes .
They were obviously happy that I was doing well , but they did n't have to reward me in any other way .
But then again , they always made it so that learning was fun and challenging .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ditto.
All I ever got was an ice cream the last day of classes.
They were obviously happy that I was doing well, but they didn't have to reward me in any other way.
But then again, they always made it so that learning was fun and challenging.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255157</id>
	<title>Re:Don't kid yourelves</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244494440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your child sounds a lot like me. Right about 7th (actually the start of 8th to be exact, I remember the day too) I to realized, homework was useless. It was ALWAYS busy work. Nothing added to the discussion (if there was one) or the line of thought of the week. Sure I read books assigned if they had relevance to the current week, researched when needed, but busy work? No. Why should I waste my time, MY time not learning? I also scored extremely high in all standardized tests (mid/late 90s, before the extreme dumbing down, my school district was resisting anyhow, though caving in, in other areas...) I scored in the 98th and 96th in the PSAT and SATs respectively.</p><p>I was also a gifted musician. I was given scholarships to several musical academies growing up. During Jr High and High school most of my time was split between Public school, the musical academies and college level courses (Musical theory and Math). (Yes I posted above as well)</p><p>Guess what happened? Senior year in High school (still maintained good enough grades to graduate mind you, I was lucky to have several teachers that recognized my predicament and, instead of grading based on the amount of work, graded on my ability to learn) the January before graduation, I dropped out of school. All of them. I was bored. Tired of the same bullshit day in and day out. What more could I learn in a few months that would help me along my way in life? Answer: Nothing. I dropped out, got a part time job (still went to my college courses as I was going to have an AS and an AA by the end of that same year, which turned into 6 years after due to unforeseen life circumstances. THAT i recognized as useful to life.) I was bitter for quite some time because of all of this.</p><p>I did however get my GED and Finish Highschool (all 2 classes worth) later on due to a job-required promotion. The company required it. Have I been hampered by this? No, not really.Yes Ive lost some jobs because "Oh you have no high-school? (Skipping past the Masters...) and other non-job-work-life-related issues that I would of had regardless. But my life is fuller because of it.</p><p>Current education models just don't work for some people. Your son and I are in the same boat. We just don't care about other's views of us, least of all the education system. We just don't fit into the cookie cutter molds current society requires.</p><p>Try enforcing what he likes.. he'll do better and be happier for it. (Sounds like music is his muse... I say go for it.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your child sounds a lot like me .
Right about 7th ( actually the start of 8th to be exact , I remember the day too ) I to realized , homework was useless .
It was ALWAYS busy work .
Nothing added to the discussion ( if there was one ) or the line of thought of the week .
Sure I read books assigned if they had relevance to the current week , researched when needed , but busy work ?
No. Why should I waste my time , MY time not learning ?
I also scored extremely high in all standardized tests ( mid/late 90s , before the extreme dumbing down , my school district was resisting anyhow , though caving in , in other areas... ) I scored in the 98th and 96th in the PSAT and SATs respectively.I was also a gifted musician .
I was given scholarships to several musical academies growing up .
During Jr High and High school most of my time was split between Public school , the musical academies and college level courses ( Musical theory and Math ) .
( Yes I posted above as well ) Guess what happened ?
Senior year in High school ( still maintained good enough grades to graduate mind you , I was lucky to have several teachers that recognized my predicament and , instead of grading based on the amount of work , graded on my ability to learn ) the January before graduation , I dropped out of school .
All of them .
I was bored .
Tired of the same bullshit day in and day out .
What more could I learn in a few months that would help me along my way in life ?
Answer : Nothing .
I dropped out , got a part time job ( still went to my college courses as I was going to have an AS and an AA by the end of that same year , which turned into 6 years after due to unforeseen life circumstances .
THAT i recognized as useful to life .
) I was bitter for quite some time because of all of this.I did however get my GED and Finish Highschool ( all 2 classes worth ) later on due to a job-required promotion .
The company required it .
Have I been hampered by this ?
No , not really.Yes Ive lost some jobs because " Oh you have no high-school ?
( Skipping past the Masters... ) and other non-job-work-life-related issues that I would of had regardless .
But my life is fuller because of it.Current education models just do n't work for some people .
Your son and I are in the same boat .
We just do n't care about other 's views of us , least of all the education system .
We just do n't fit into the cookie cutter molds current society requires.Try enforcing what he likes.. he 'll do better and be happier for it .
( Sounds like music is his muse... I say go for it .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your child sounds a lot like me.
Right about 7th (actually the start of 8th to be exact, I remember the day too) I to realized, homework was useless.
It was ALWAYS busy work.
Nothing added to the discussion (if there was one) or the line of thought of the week.
Sure I read books assigned if they had relevance to the current week, researched when needed, but busy work?
No. Why should I waste my time, MY time not learning?
I also scored extremely high in all standardized tests (mid/late 90s, before the extreme dumbing down, my school district was resisting anyhow, though caving in, in other areas...) I scored in the 98th and 96th in the PSAT and SATs respectively.I was also a gifted musician.
I was given scholarships to several musical academies growing up.
During Jr High and High school most of my time was split between Public school, the musical academies and college level courses (Musical theory and Math).
(Yes I posted above as well)Guess what happened?
Senior year in High school (still maintained good enough grades to graduate mind you, I was lucky to have several teachers that recognized my predicament and, instead of grading based on the amount of work, graded on my ability to learn) the January before graduation, I dropped out of school.
All of them.
I was bored.
Tired of the same bullshit day in and day out.
What more could I learn in a few months that would help me along my way in life?
Answer: Nothing.
I dropped out, got a part time job (still went to my college courses as I was going to have an AS and an AA by the end of that same year, which turned into 6 years after due to unforeseen life circumstances.
THAT i recognized as useful to life.
) I was bitter for quite some time because of all of this.I did however get my GED and Finish Highschool (all 2 classes worth) later on due to a job-required promotion.
The company required it.
Have I been hampered by this?
No, not really.Yes Ive lost some jobs because "Oh you have no high-school?
(Skipping past the Masters...) and other non-job-work-life-related issues that I would of had regardless.
But my life is fuller because of it.Current education models just don't work for some people.
Your son and I are in the same boat.
We just don't care about other's views of us, least of all the education system.
We just don't fit into the cookie cutter molds current society requires.Try enforcing what he likes.. he'll do better and be happier for it.
(Sounds like music is his muse... I say go for it.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253847</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257541</id>
	<title>Re:Education's sake?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244459220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm all for it.  I think they should post test scores publicly, create testing tournaments, and generally instill a more competitive nature to academics.  Pit classes vs classes, boys vs girls, schools vs schools, districts vs districts.  Students need more motivational programs in academics and more visible and immediate rewards for academic performance.<br>
<br>
What if your class got a day off if it was the top performing class in your school?<br>
What if your school got a day off if it was the top performing school in your district?<br>
What if test scores were posted publicly and the top 20 performers earned a scaled payment?<br>
What if the five most improved scores earned a bonus payment?<br>
What if they handed out letterman jackets for academic performance?<br>
What if you created a "testing" league, allowed schools to field teams, and created tournaments with instantly graded results?<br>
<br>
Some of these may already occur with programs like Science Bowl or Knowledge Bowl, but we need to bring it to a larger number of students.<br>
<br>
We need to change the teenage perception that being smart is not cool...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm all for it .
I think they should post test scores publicly , create testing tournaments , and generally instill a more competitive nature to academics .
Pit classes vs classes , boys vs girls , schools vs schools , districts vs districts .
Students need more motivational programs in academics and more visible and immediate rewards for academic performance .
What if your class got a day off if it was the top performing class in your school ?
What if your school got a day off if it was the top performing school in your district ?
What if test scores were posted publicly and the top 20 performers earned a scaled payment ?
What if the five most improved scores earned a bonus payment ?
What if they handed out letterman jackets for academic performance ?
What if you created a " testing " league , allowed schools to field teams , and created tournaments with instantly graded results ?
Some of these may already occur with programs like Science Bowl or Knowledge Bowl , but we need to bring it to a larger number of students .
We need to change the teenage perception that being smart is not cool.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm all for it.
I think they should post test scores publicly, create testing tournaments, and generally instill a more competitive nature to academics.
Pit classes vs classes, boys vs girls, schools vs schools, districts vs districts.
Students need more motivational programs in academics and more visible and immediate rewards for academic performance.
What if your class got a day off if it was the top performing class in your school?
What if your school got a day off if it was the top performing school in your district?
What if test scores were posted publicly and the top 20 performers earned a scaled payment?
What if the five most improved scores earned a bonus payment?
What if they handed out letterman jackets for academic performance?
What if you created a "testing" league, allowed schools to field teams, and created tournaments with instantly graded results?
Some of these may already occur with programs like Science Bowl or Knowledge Bowl, but we need to bring it to a larger number of students.
We need to change the teenage perception that being smart is not cool...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253907</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28258393</id>
	<title>Re:Education's sake?</title>
	<author>RobDude</author>
	<datestamp>1244462820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was Comp Sci and it was a lazy paradise for me.  I also didn't have rich parents or anyone funding my college adventures.</p><p>There are a couple of things you can do to greatly improve the college experience.  First, the school you pick is going to be a HUGE factor.  Consider things like admission requirements and graduation rates.  The vast, vast, vast majority of people aren't smart enough to get into MIT *and* slack off *and* graduate.</p><p>Truthfully, *where* you went to college doesn't matter much at all.  It might affect what companies are at your campus job fair.  That's about it.  After your first job, nobody will care where you went to college (unless it was MIT/Harvard/etc).  So the difference between 'some state school that requires a 25 ACT score to get in' and a state school that requires a 20 to get in - isn't going to have a serious impact in your post-college future.  But it can make a world of difference in how much work you have to put in.</p><p>I choose a university where I knew I would be smarter than the average student there.  That meant, I could less work than the average student and score as high, or higher, than them.</p><p>Beyond that - the second most important thing you can do is LEARN THE RULES of your university.  That student handbook you get as a freshman - read it.  Read it more than once.  The game is graduating with the least amount of work possible.  That book is the rules.  How can you expect to win Monopoly if you haven't read the rules?  I can't tell you how many of my friends got 'screwed' at one point or another for not knowing the rules and listening to someone else who told them the rules.</p><p>At my university - you could take a certain number of credits 'pass/fail'.  Why bust your hump to get an A or a B in some Gen. Ed. you don't care about when you can just take it 'pass/fail' and have it not affect your GPA?</p><p>Also, at my university, you had a two week grace period to drop classes/make changes to your course load *without* incurring any fees.  Classes are *not* created equal.  Even the exact same class, can be much easier or much harder than another session of that same class because of the professor teaching it.</p><p>Since my sophomore year, I would *always* enroll in one extra class.  I had the first week to decide which of my classes would be the hardest, require the most work, and then I'd drop it.  Using sites like 'ratemyprofessor' would help; but a lot of times you didn't see the professors name.</p><p>You also get the same amount of credit for a class at 2pm as you do at 8am.  Never take a class before noon unless you absolutely have to.</p><p>I really can't stress it enough - 'know the rules'.  At my school, if you received an F in a class, retook it, and ended with a B - that B would 'replace' the F and your GPA would be a 3.0.  If you ended with a D (but needed a C for it to count towards your major) and retook it, ended up with a B - they would average them.  And you'd get a GPA for a 2.0</p><p>Naturally, the next level of this was the individual class syllabuses.  Those were the rules 'for that class'.  Not 'as important' but still really useful to pay attention to.</p><p>Dealing with teachers was pretty easy too.  I found that if you were proactive instead of reactive; they'd let you do most anything.  If you came to them the day of a test or after you missed a test and said, 'Gee, I was out of town / sick / whatever' you were screwed.  If you came up on the 2nd day of class and said you were on the Universities (name of extracurricular activity) squad and that there was a big tournament you *might* have to attend that would interfere with the midterm; would it be possible to either take it early or the next weekend....most of them were MORE THAN HAPPY to let you take it late.  And, by the time you took it, you already had all the answers from your roommate who took it.</p><p>Finally, you've got online classes, satellite schools, and CLEP/Equivalency exams.  I was 3 credits short; so I showed up and took every one of them tests I could, until I p</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was Comp Sci and it was a lazy paradise for me .
I also did n't have rich parents or anyone funding my college adventures.There are a couple of things you can do to greatly improve the college experience .
First , the school you pick is going to be a HUGE factor .
Consider things like admission requirements and graduation rates .
The vast , vast , vast majority of people are n't smart enough to get into MIT * and * slack off * and * graduate.Truthfully , * where * you went to college does n't matter much at all .
It might affect what companies are at your campus job fair .
That 's about it .
After your first job , nobody will care where you went to college ( unless it was MIT/Harvard/etc ) .
So the difference between 'some state school that requires a 25 ACT score to get in ' and a state school that requires a 20 to get in - is n't going to have a serious impact in your post-college future .
But it can make a world of difference in how much work you have to put in.I choose a university where I knew I would be smarter than the average student there .
That meant , I could less work than the average student and score as high , or higher , than them.Beyond that - the second most important thing you can do is LEARN THE RULES of your university .
That student handbook you get as a freshman - read it .
Read it more than once .
The game is graduating with the least amount of work possible .
That book is the rules .
How can you expect to win Monopoly if you have n't read the rules ?
I ca n't tell you how many of my friends got 'screwed ' at one point or another for not knowing the rules and listening to someone else who told them the rules.At my university - you could take a certain number of credits 'pass/fail' .
Why bust your hump to get an A or a B in some Gen. Ed. you do n't care about when you can just take it 'pass/fail ' and have it not affect your GPA ? Also , at my university , you had a two week grace period to drop classes/make changes to your course load * without * incurring any fees .
Classes are * not * created equal .
Even the exact same class , can be much easier or much harder than another session of that same class because of the professor teaching it.Since my sophomore year , I would * always * enroll in one extra class .
I had the first week to decide which of my classes would be the hardest , require the most work , and then I 'd drop it .
Using sites like 'ratemyprofessor ' would help ; but a lot of times you did n't see the professors name.You also get the same amount of credit for a class at 2pm as you do at 8am .
Never take a class before noon unless you absolutely have to.I really ca n't stress it enough - 'know the rules' .
At my school , if you received an F in a class , retook it , and ended with a B - that B would 'replace ' the F and your GPA would be a 3.0 .
If you ended with a D ( but needed a C for it to count towards your major ) and retook it , ended up with a B - they would average them .
And you 'd get a GPA for a 2.0Naturally , the next level of this was the individual class syllabuses .
Those were the rules 'for that class' .
Not 'as important ' but still really useful to pay attention to.Dealing with teachers was pretty easy too .
I found that if you were proactive instead of reactive ; they 'd let you do most anything .
If you came to them the day of a test or after you missed a test and said , 'Gee , I was out of town / sick / whatever ' you were screwed .
If you came up on the 2nd day of class and said you were on the Universities ( name of extracurricular activity ) squad and that there was a big tournament you * might * have to attend that would interfere with the midterm ; would it be possible to either take it early or the next weekend....most of them were MORE THAN HAPPY to let you take it late .
And , by the time you took it , you already had all the answers from your roommate who took it.Finally , you 've got online classes , satellite schools , and CLEP/Equivalency exams .
I was 3 credits short ; so I showed up and took every one of them tests I could , until I p</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was Comp Sci and it was a lazy paradise for me.
I also didn't have rich parents or anyone funding my college adventures.There are a couple of things you can do to greatly improve the college experience.
First, the school you pick is going to be a HUGE factor.
Consider things like admission requirements and graduation rates.
The vast, vast, vast majority of people aren't smart enough to get into MIT *and* slack off *and* graduate.Truthfully, *where* you went to college doesn't matter much at all.
It might affect what companies are at your campus job fair.
That's about it.
After your first job, nobody will care where you went to college (unless it was MIT/Harvard/etc).
So the difference between 'some state school that requires a 25 ACT score to get in' and a state school that requires a 20 to get in - isn't going to have a serious impact in your post-college future.
But it can make a world of difference in how much work you have to put in.I choose a university where I knew I would be smarter than the average student there.
That meant, I could less work than the average student and score as high, or higher, than them.Beyond that - the second most important thing you can do is LEARN THE RULES of your university.
That student handbook you get as a freshman - read it.
Read it more than once.
The game is graduating with the least amount of work possible.
That book is the rules.
How can you expect to win Monopoly if you haven't read the rules?
I can't tell you how many of my friends got 'screwed' at one point or another for not knowing the rules and listening to someone else who told them the rules.At my university - you could take a certain number of credits 'pass/fail'.
Why bust your hump to get an A or a B in some Gen. Ed. you don't care about when you can just take it 'pass/fail' and have it not affect your GPA?Also, at my university, you had a two week grace period to drop classes/make changes to your course load *without* incurring any fees.
Classes are *not* created equal.
Even the exact same class, can be much easier or much harder than another session of that same class because of the professor teaching it.Since my sophomore year, I would *always* enroll in one extra class.
I had the first week to decide which of my classes would be the hardest, require the most work, and then I'd drop it.
Using sites like 'ratemyprofessor' would help; but a lot of times you didn't see the professors name.You also get the same amount of credit for a class at 2pm as you do at 8am.
Never take a class before noon unless you absolutely have to.I really can't stress it enough - 'know the rules'.
At my school, if you received an F in a class, retook it, and ended with a B - that B would 'replace' the F and your GPA would be a 3.0.
If you ended with a D (but needed a C for it to count towards your major) and retook it, ended up with a B - they would average them.
And you'd get a GPA for a 2.0Naturally, the next level of this was the individual class syllabuses.
Those were the rules 'for that class'.
Not 'as important' but still really useful to pay attention to.Dealing with teachers was pretty easy too.
I found that if you were proactive instead of reactive; they'd let you do most anything.
If you came to them the day of a test or after you missed a test and said, 'Gee, I was out of town / sick / whatever' you were screwed.
If you came up on the 2nd day of class and said you were on the Universities (name of extracurricular activity) squad and that there was a big tournament you *might* have to attend that would interfere with the midterm; would it be possible to either take it early or the next weekend....most of them were MORE THAN HAPPY to let you take it late.
And, by the time you took it, you already had all the answers from your roommate who took it.Finally, you've got online classes, satellite schools, and CLEP/Equivalency exams.
I was 3 credits short; so I showed up and took every one of them tests I could, until I p</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254577</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253973</id>
	<title>Compete with drugs</title>
	<author>s31523</author>
	<datestamp>1244489760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I wonder if this would help keep kids on the books and off the pipe or off the corner selling dope... I mean if you could earn $500 for getting a good grade then it might not be so desirable for the kids to seek out gangs and drugs as a source of income... The situation is much more complicated, but it does eliminate some of the argument from the inner city kids who state that studying ain't gonna put food on the table.  I know, many people are yelling "That is the parents job", but that is not reality for an inner-city kid with 4 siblings and 1 parent who is addicted to booze and/or drugs and spends any state/fed assistance on their habit....</htmltext>
<tokenext>I wonder if this would help keep kids on the books and off the pipe or off the corner selling dope... I mean if you could earn $ 500 for getting a good grade then it might not be so desirable for the kids to seek out gangs and drugs as a source of income... The situation is much more complicated , but it does eliminate some of the argument from the inner city kids who state that studying ai n't gon na put food on the table .
I know , many people are yelling " That is the parents job " , but that is not reality for an inner-city kid with 4 siblings and 1 parent who is addicted to booze and/or drugs and spends any state/fed assistance on their habit... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wonder if this would help keep kids on the books and off the pipe or off the corner selling dope... I mean if you could earn $500 for getting a good grade then it might not be so desirable for the kids to seek out gangs and drugs as a source of income... The situation is much more complicated, but it does eliminate some of the argument from the inner city kids who state that studying ain't gonna put food on the table.
I know, many people are yelling "That is the parents job", but that is not reality for an inner-city kid with 4 siblings and 1 parent who is addicted to booze and/or drugs and spends any state/fed assistance on their habit....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253903</id>
	<title>House Hold Decisions</title>
	<author>anonymousNR</author>
	<datestamp>1244489520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This kind of stuff should be more a house hold thing, where parents decide to reward the kid if he/she performs well and exceeds a certain expectation, rather than schools doing this.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This kind of stuff should be more a house hold thing , where parents decide to reward the kid if he/she performs well and exceeds a certain expectation , rather than schools doing this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This kind of stuff should be more a house hold thing, where parents decide to reward the kid if he/she performs well and exceeds a certain expectation, rather than schools doing this.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257791</id>
	<title>What's the problem?</title>
	<author>naasking</author>
	<datestamp>1244460120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Critics, who are unaware that most college students don't become liberal arts majors, argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone.</i></p><p>Considering most kids don't actually care to learn just for education's sake, I'd say that's just fine.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Critics , who are unaware that most college students do n't become liberal arts majors , argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education 's sake alone.Considering most kids do n't actually care to learn just for education 's sake , I 'd say that 's just fine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Critics, who are unaware that most college students don't become liberal arts majors, argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone.Considering most kids don't actually care to learn just for education's sake, I'd say that's just fine.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28263073</id>
	<title>estrogen overload</title>
	<author>uiuyhn8i8</author>
	<datestamp>1244543220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Cue the 'Oh the poor poor children will cry themselves to sleep if we actually expect something more than attendance in school.' estrogen-high soccer moms.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Cue the 'Oh the poor poor children will cry themselves to sleep if we actually expect something more than attendance in school .
' estrogen-high soccer moms .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cue the 'Oh the poor poor children will cry themselves to sleep if we actually expect something more than attendance in school.
' estrogen-high soccer moms.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28260629</id>
	<title>Re:Motivation...</title>
	<author>zippthorne</author>
	<datestamp>1244475780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Now, how can we use this to eliminate the counterculture where it is good to be stupid?</p><p>Does this mean that kids are 39.6\% smarter than we thought they were?  They just needed a reason to show it?</p></div><p>1) beatings.  Only half-joking.  the idea that it's good to be stupid is something that does need to be stamped out, though.</p><p>2) probably.  maybe even smarter than that.  an 11 year old just got a degree in Astrophysics.  Is he <em>so</em> far ahead of his ostensible peers?  Or is it more likely that 11 year olds, in general, are vastly underestimated and under-served?  (not to say that every 11 year old is capable of advanced physics, but perhaps much, much, more than we're offering them.)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Now , how can we use this to eliminate the counterculture where it is good to be stupid ? Does this mean that kids are 39.6 \ % smarter than we thought they were ?
They just needed a reason to show it ? 1 ) beatings .
Only half-joking .
the idea that it 's good to be stupid is something that does need to be stamped out , though.2 ) probably .
maybe even smarter than that .
an 11 year old just got a degree in Astrophysics .
Is he so far ahead of his ostensible peers ?
Or is it more likely that 11 year olds , in general , are vastly underestimated and under-served ?
( not to say that every 11 year old is capable of advanced physics , but perhaps much , much , more than we 're offering them .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now, how can we use this to eliminate the counterculture where it is good to be stupid?Does this mean that kids are 39.6\% smarter than we thought they were?
They just needed a reason to show it?1) beatings.
Only half-joking.
the idea that it's good to be stupid is something that does need to be stamped out, though.2) probably.
maybe even smarter than that.
an 11 year old just got a degree in Astrophysics.
Is he so far ahead of his ostensible peers?
Or is it more likely that 11 year olds, in general, are vastly underestimated and under-served?
(not to say that every 11 year old is capable of advanced physics, but perhaps much, much, more than we're offering them.
)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253787</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253927</id>
	<title>short-sightedness.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244489640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This only shows the short-term goals of people. Very few people think further than only 10 years ahead.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This only shows the short-term goals of people .
Very few people think further than only 10 years ahead .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This only shows the short-term goals of people.
Very few people think further than only 10 years ahead.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255447</id>
	<title>Re:Compete with drugs</title>
	<author>jgostling</author>
	<datestamp>1244451960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Are you aware of the danger of sending a kid loaded with $500 back home to a booze/drug addicted parent?<br>
<br>
Cheers!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Are you aware of the danger of sending a kid loaded with $ 500 back home to a booze/drug addicted parent ?
Cheers !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are you aware of the danger of sending a kid loaded with $500 back home to a booze/drug addicted parent?
Cheers!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253973</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255767</id>
	<title>The real problem...</title>
	<author>psnyder</author>
	<datestamp>1244452980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have to say, the misconceptions in both the summary and many of these comments raised my blood pressure.<br> <br>

For some reason education runs deep with people.
Everybody and anybody thinks they're an expert and has opinions.  But barely any of them can tell you the core psychological differences between different ages of children.  A 4 yr old is VERY different than a 6 yr old in what motivates them and what their brains are receptive to.  And an 11 yr old and 13 yr old are extremely different as well.  Development is NOT linear.  And while sitting an adult down and lecturing to them may be the best way to transfer knowledge to adults, it is completely unnatural for nearly every stage of childhood development.  So they end up hating learning and we have to resort to 'tricks' like this to entice them.<br> <br>

The main difference between a successful genius like Edison or Da Vinci and an average person, is that the genius is fascinated by things and loves to work on them.
<br> <br>

This program itself is a band-aid.  It may very well be helpful in desperate areas.  But it's a band-aid on top of a very deep problem in the structure of what we think 'education' should be.  When the critics argue that "paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone", it doesn't matter.  The way the current system is set up, there's no way that a majority of the kids are going to love learning.
<br> <br>

I'm a certified teacher in the US.  By pure chance I came across a school that used a method spread by a Dr. Montessori (the same method that Larry Page &amp; Sergey Brin, the founders of Google, <a href="http://www.michaelolaf.net/google.html" title="michaelolaf.net">credit as a major factor in their success</a> [michaelolaf.net]).<br> <br>

The first thing that struck me is how eager these kids were to work on things and find things out on their own.  The smartest kids were well beyond most of the ones I knew in mainstream education and the slower kids STILL loved learning.  Then I realized how happy the children were.  Yes, there are always problems, but very few were bored and no one sat around like a broken shell of a human waiting for the day to be over.<br> <br>

I ended up getting my certification in Montessori elementary education, and the classes were MUCH more thorough and in depth then when I went for my mainstream certification.  Now I feel like I was somewhat amateurish when I taught before.  I had little idea about how to really work with the psychological sensitivities of each age and turn them into something truly developmentally constructive.<br> <br>

Only a small part of development is the transference of knowledge, which seems to be the main focus of current mainstream education (and what this little pay-for-grades project helps with).  But if the aim is switched to aiding human beings in their life and development, then we start to use knowledge as a tool.<br> <br>

We use the knowledge to develop the brain, rather than trying to drop knowledge into an undeveloped mind as if it's an empty container waiting to be filled.  This kind of development is what I think Einstein was talking about when he said, "Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school."<br> <br>

I urge any parents to <a href="http://www2.milwaukee.k12.wi.us/special/mpsmonte.htm" title="k12.wi.us">look into the Montessori method</a> [k12.wi.us], and visit a school in your area if you can.  But understand that <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmPlinEUzSo" title="youtube.com">some schools use the name without really using the method.</a> [youtube.com]
<br> <br>

This program that pays children for their grades is like painting on old, crumbling house.  It does help a bit, and it definitely looks nice.  But I'd rather get inside and strengthen the architecture.  The paint will wear off eventually.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have to say , the misconceptions in both the summary and many of these comments raised my blood pressure .
For some reason education runs deep with people .
Everybody and anybody thinks they 're an expert and has opinions .
But barely any of them can tell you the core psychological differences between different ages of children .
A 4 yr old is VERY different than a 6 yr old in what motivates them and what their brains are receptive to .
And an 11 yr old and 13 yr old are extremely different as well .
Development is NOT linear .
And while sitting an adult down and lecturing to them may be the best way to transfer knowledge to adults , it is completely unnatural for nearly every stage of childhood development .
So they end up hating learning and we have to resort to 'tricks ' like this to entice them .
The main difference between a successful genius like Edison or Da Vinci and an average person , is that the genius is fascinated by things and loves to work on them .
This program itself is a band-aid .
It may very well be helpful in desperate areas .
But it 's a band-aid on top of a very deep problem in the structure of what we think 'education ' should be .
When the critics argue that " paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education 's sake alone " , it does n't matter .
The way the current system is set up , there 's no way that a majority of the kids are going to love learning .
I 'm a certified teacher in the US .
By pure chance I came across a school that used a method spread by a Dr. Montessori ( the same method that Larry Page &amp; Sergey Brin , the founders of Google , credit as a major factor in their success [ michaelolaf.net ] ) .
The first thing that struck me is how eager these kids were to work on things and find things out on their own .
The smartest kids were well beyond most of the ones I knew in mainstream education and the slower kids STILL loved learning .
Then I realized how happy the children were .
Yes , there are always problems , but very few were bored and no one sat around like a broken shell of a human waiting for the day to be over .
I ended up getting my certification in Montessori elementary education , and the classes were MUCH more thorough and in depth then when I went for my mainstream certification .
Now I feel like I was somewhat amateurish when I taught before .
I had little idea about how to really work with the psychological sensitivities of each age and turn them into something truly developmentally constructive .
Only a small part of development is the transference of knowledge , which seems to be the main focus of current mainstream education ( and what this little pay-for-grades project helps with ) .
But if the aim is switched to aiding human beings in their life and development , then we start to use knowledge as a tool .
We use the knowledge to develop the brain , rather than trying to drop knowledge into an undeveloped mind as if it 's an empty container waiting to be filled .
This kind of development is what I think Einstein was talking about when he said , " Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school .
" I urge any parents to look into the Montessori method [ k12.wi.us ] , and visit a school in your area if you can .
But understand that some schools use the name without really using the method .
[ youtube.com ] This program that pays children for their grades is like painting on old , crumbling house .
It does help a bit , and it definitely looks nice .
But I 'd rather get inside and strengthen the architecture .
The paint will wear off eventually .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have to say, the misconceptions in both the summary and many of these comments raised my blood pressure.
For some reason education runs deep with people.
Everybody and anybody thinks they're an expert and has opinions.
But barely any of them can tell you the core psychological differences between different ages of children.
A 4 yr old is VERY different than a 6 yr old in what motivates them and what their brains are receptive to.
And an 11 yr old and 13 yr old are extremely different as well.
Development is NOT linear.
And while sitting an adult down and lecturing to them may be the best way to transfer knowledge to adults, it is completely unnatural for nearly every stage of childhood development.
So they end up hating learning and we have to resort to 'tricks' like this to entice them.
The main difference between a successful genius like Edison or Da Vinci and an average person, is that the genius is fascinated by things and loves to work on them.
This program itself is a band-aid.
It may very well be helpful in desperate areas.
But it's a band-aid on top of a very deep problem in the structure of what we think 'education' should be.
When the critics argue that "paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone", it doesn't matter.
The way the current system is set up, there's no way that a majority of the kids are going to love learning.
I'm a certified teacher in the US.
By pure chance I came across a school that used a method spread by a Dr. Montessori (the same method that Larry Page &amp; Sergey Brin, the founders of Google, credit as a major factor in their success [michaelolaf.net]).
The first thing that struck me is how eager these kids were to work on things and find things out on their own.
The smartest kids were well beyond most of the ones I knew in mainstream education and the slower kids STILL loved learning.
Then I realized how happy the children were.
Yes, there are always problems, but very few were bored and no one sat around like a broken shell of a human waiting for the day to be over.
I ended up getting my certification in Montessori elementary education, and the classes were MUCH more thorough and in depth then when I went for my mainstream certification.
Now I feel like I was somewhat amateurish when I taught before.
I had little idea about how to really work with the psychological sensitivities of each age and turn them into something truly developmentally constructive.
Only a small part of development is the transference of knowledge, which seems to be the main focus of current mainstream education (and what this little pay-for-grades project helps with).
But if the aim is switched to aiding human beings in their life and development, then we start to use knowledge as a tool.
We use the knowledge to develop the brain, rather than trying to drop knowledge into an undeveloped mind as if it's an empty container waiting to be filled.
This kind of development is what I think Einstein was talking about when he said, "Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school.
" 

I urge any parents to look into the Montessori method [k12.wi.us], and visit a school in your area if you can.
But understand that some schools use the name without really using the method.
[youtube.com]
 

This program that pays children for their grades is like painting on old, crumbling house.
It does help a bit, and it definitely looks nice.
But I'd rather get inside and strengthen the architecture.
The paint will wear off eventually.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256065</id>
	<title>Re:So how much...</title>
	<author>Khashishi</author>
	<datestamp>1244453880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I bet he has some handsome scholarships in line.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I bet he has some handsome scholarships in line .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I bet he has some handsome scholarships in line.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253689</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254371</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>Rakshasa Taisab</author>
	<datestamp>1244491500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>These conclusions were challenged in a separate meta-analysis which found that tangible rewards offered for outperforming others and for performing uninteresting tasks (in which intrinsic motivation is low) lead to increased intrinsic motivation.</i> <br> <br>

Which makes sense... Cause rewarding children purely for painting (no matter how good or bad) does not reward advancement of skills. What the school is doing here is rewarding long-term planning, hard work and competitiveness. Usually that reward was on an extremely-long-term, like 'when you get old, you'll have a better life'.</htmltext>
<tokenext>These conclusions were challenged in a separate meta-analysis which found that tangible rewards offered for outperforming others and for performing uninteresting tasks ( in which intrinsic motivation is low ) lead to increased intrinsic motivation .
Which makes sense... Cause rewarding children purely for painting ( no matter how good or bad ) does not reward advancement of skills .
What the school is doing here is rewarding long-term planning , hard work and competitiveness .
Usually that reward was on an extremely-long-term , like 'when you get old , you 'll have a better life' .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These conclusions were challenged in a separate meta-analysis which found that tangible rewards offered for outperforming others and for performing uninteresting tasks (in which intrinsic motivation is low) lead to increased intrinsic motivation.
Which makes sense... Cause rewarding children purely for painting (no matter how good or bad) does not reward advancement of skills.
What the school is doing here is rewarding long-term planning, hard work and competitiveness.
Usually that reward was on an extremely-long-term, like 'when you get old, you'll have a better life'.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28258025</id>
	<title>Re:and on the other end...</title>
	<author>Lost Engineer</author>
	<datestamp>1244461020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>why aren't they giving it to inner-city schools in the first place?</p></div><p>Umm because that would be inefficient?  Isn't kind of the whole point of this experiment to see if giving money to the kids directly results in better outcomes than giving it to their teachers?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>why are n't they giving it to inner-city schools in the first place ? Umm because that would be inefficient ?
Is n't kind of the whole point of this experiment to see if giving money to the kids directly results in better outcomes than giving it to their teachers ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>why aren't they giving it to inner-city schools in the first place?Umm because that would be inefficient?
Isn't kind of the whole point of this experiment to see if giving money to the kids directly results in better outcomes than giving it to their teachers?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254209</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256051</id>
	<title>Re:and on the other end...</title>
	<author>djp928</author>
	<datestamp>1244453820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>They're learning to play the game that is the educational system.</p></div><p>Good.  That will prepare them to play the game that is "real life" much better than whatever it is they're doing now.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>They 're learning to play the game that is the educational system.Good .
That will prepare them to play the game that is " real life " much better than whatever it is they 're doing now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They're learning to play the game that is the educational system.Good.
That will prepare them to play the game that is "real life" much better than whatever it is they're doing now.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254209</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28257105</id>
	<title>Re:Money is always...</title>
	<author>PitaBred</author>
	<datestamp>1244457540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Children 50 years ago would be going to high school and higher education in much lower numbers than they are today, and there would be a significantly decreased stigma with vocational education. A high school education gets you a lot less today than it did in the 50's and 60's. Now it's bare minimum, back then it meant you could start above the minimum.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Children 50 years ago would be going to high school and higher education in much lower numbers than they are today , and there would be a significantly decreased stigma with vocational education .
A high school education gets you a lot less today than it did in the 50 's and 60 's .
Now it 's bare minimum , back then it meant you could start above the minimum .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Children 50 years ago would be going to high school and higher education in much lower numbers than they are today, and there would be a significantly decreased stigma with vocational education.
A high school education gets you a lot less today than it did in the 50's and 60's.
Now it's bare minimum, back then it meant you could start above the minimum.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254195</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255345</id>
	<title>Re:Don't kid yourelves</title>
	<author>W. Justice Black</author>
	<datestamp>1244451660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>So, here's a case where the kid does well on tests, usually getting As and Bs, but consistently gets Fs overall. He knows the material better than most of his peers, but is failing.</p></div><p>I wasn't quite that bad, but I <i>was</i> pretty lazy growing up.  I don't know that I have a great deal of advice to hand out, but I can tell the (extremely abridged) version of my life story:</p><ol>
  <li>Graduated in the top 10\% of my high school class.  Barely.</li><li>Went on to a state school.</li><li>Started failing classes because, while smart, I had no work ethic.</li><li>Went out into the real world for a while (sold computers, tech support, etc.).</li><li>After building up a work ethic, went back to school part time, moved to Silicon Valley.</li><li>After years as a full-time worker/part-time student, I graduated as the CS department's graduating senior of the year in 2008--after first starting college in 1992(!).</li><li>I now work as a reasonably well-paid software engineer and (even in this economy) have 2-4 recruiters per week bugging me.</li></ol><p>Until I figured out how to put my head down, concentrate and get sh*t done, I was in many ways only half a person.  No matter how smart you are, you're likely to get no traction without the ability and patience to do the work.  Sorry, but that's the way it is.  I wish you the best of luck with your son--it was only by the grace of being independent and responsible for my own life that I learned the value of hard work.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So , here 's a case where the kid does well on tests , usually getting As and Bs , but consistently gets Fs overall .
He knows the material better than most of his peers , but is failing.I was n't quite that bad , but I was pretty lazy growing up .
I do n't know that I have a great deal of advice to hand out , but I can tell the ( extremely abridged ) version of my life story : Graduated in the top 10 \ % of my high school class .
Barely.Went on to a state school.Started failing classes because , while smart , I had no work ethic.Went out into the real world for a while ( sold computers , tech support , etc .
) .After building up a work ethic , went back to school part time , moved to Silicon Valley.After years as a full-time worker/part-time student , I graduated as the CS department 's graduating senior of the year in 2008--after first starting college in 1992 ( !
) .I now work as a reasonably well-paid software engineer and ( even in this economy ) have 2-4 recruiters per week bugging me.Until I figured out how to put my head down , concentrate and get sh * t done , I was in many ways only half a person .
No matter how smart you are , you 're likely to get no traction without the ability and patience to do the work .
Sorry , but that 's the way it is .
I wish you the best of luck with your son--it was only by the grace of being independent and responsible for my own life that I learned the value of hard work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So, here's a case where the kid does well on tests, usually getting As and Bs, but consistently gets Fs overall.
He knows the material better than most of his peers, but is failing.I wasn't quite that bad, but I was pretty lazy growing up.
I don't know that I have a great deal of advice to hand out, but I can tell the (extremely abridged) version of my life story:
  Graduated in the top 10\% of my high school class.
Barely.Went on to a state school.Started failing classes because, while smart, I had no work ethic.Went out into the real world for a while (sold computers, tech support, etc.
).After building up a work ethic, went back to school part time, moved to Silicon Valley.After years as a full-time worker/part-time student, I graduated as the CS department's graduating senior of the year in 2008--after first starting college in 1992(!
).I now work as a reasonably well-paid software engineer and (even in this economy) have 2-4 recruiters per week bugging me.Until I figured out how to put my head down, concentrate and get sh*t done, I was in many ways only half a person.
No matter how smart you are, you're likely to get no traction without the ability and patience to do the work.
Sorry, but that's the way it is.
I wish you the best of luck with your son--it was only by the grace of being independent and responsible for my own life that I learned the value of hard work.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253847</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255601</id>
	<title>Re:Scores may go up, but I doubt comprehension is</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1244452440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>All this does is bribe kids to cram as much information in as possible right before the exam, and I would be willing to bet most forget most of it in a week.</i> Which is a pretty accurate description of how I got through college. Sure, I didn't retain much, but guess how much of what I learned in getting an EE degree I've actually needed for writing software? That's right -- none at all. The degree just proves you are capable of applying yourself and learning, not that you remember everything a professor said in front of a class.</htmltext>
<tokenext>All this does is bribe kids to cram as much information in as possible right before the exam , and I would be willing to bet most forget most of it in a week .
Which is a pretty accurate description of how I got through college .
Sure , I did n't retain much , but guess how much of what I learned in getting an EE degree I 've actually needed for writing software ?
That 's right -- none at all .
The degree just proves you are capable of applying yourself and learning , not that you remember everything a professor said in front of a class .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All this does is bribe kids to cram as much information in as possible right before the exam, and I would be willing to bet most forget most of it in a week.
Which is a pretty accurate description of how I got through college.
Sure, I didn't retain much, but guess how much of what I learned in getting an EE degree I've actually needed for writing software?
That's right -- none at all.
The degree just proves you are capable of applying yourself and learning, not that you remember everything a professor said in front of a class.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253717</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254531</id>
	<title>competitive my ass</title>
	<author>Joebert</author>
	<datestamp>1244492220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>"It's an ego booster in terms of self-worth. When they get the checks, there's that competitiveness -- 'Oh, I'm going to get more money than you next time' -- so it's something that excites them," said Rose Marie Mills, principal at MS 343 in Mott Haven.</p></div> </blockquote><p>
Kids don't give a shit about all of that stuff, it's emotionally fucked up beauty pageant moms, football dads, and principals who give a shit about that stuff.<br> <br>

Kids get the checks and start thinking about XBox games and other shit they normally wouldn't get to have.</p><blockquote><div><p>Critics, who are unaware that most college students don't become liberal arts majors, argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone.</p></div> </blockquote><p>
What the fuck do people get an education for, to get a better <b>paying</b> job that's what.<br> <br>

Why do kids get such shitty grades, because school is like sewing soccer balls in a 3rd world country except it doesn't produce any tangible goods that's why.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" It 's an ego booster in terms of self-worth .
When they get the checks , there 's that competitiveness -- 'Oh , I 'm going to get more money than you next time ' -- so it 's something that excites them , " said Rose Marie Mills , principal at MS 343 in Mott Haven .
Kids do n't give a shit about all of that stuff , it 's emotionally fucked up beauty pageant moms , football dads , and principals who give a shit about that stuff .
Kids get the checks and start thinking about XBox games and other shit they normally would n't get to have.Critics , who are unaware that most college students do n't become liberal arts majors , argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education 's sake alone .
What the fuck do people get an education for , to get a better paying job that 's what .
Why do kids get such shitty grades , because school is like sewing soccer balls in a 3rd world country except it does n't produce any tangible goods that 's why .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"It's an ego booster in terms of self-worth.
When they get the checks, there's that competitiveness -- 'Oh, I'm going to get more money than you next time' -- so it's something that excites them," said Rose Marie Mills, principal at MS 343 in Mott Haven.
Kids don't give a shit about all of that stuff, it's emotionally fucked up beauty pageant moms, football dads, and principals who give a shit about that stuff.
Kids get the checks and start thinking about XBox games and other shit they normally wouldn't get to have.Critics, who are unaware that most college students don't become liberal arts majors, argue that paying kids corrupts the notion of learning for education's sake alone.
What the fuck do people get an education for, to get a better paying job that's what.
Why do kids get such shitty grades, because school is like sewing soccer balls in a 3rd world country except it doesn't produce any tangible goods that's why.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256509</id>
	<title>Re:Scores may go up, but I doubt comprehension is</title>
	<author>shaitand</author>
	<datestamp>1244455320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"If those kids get used to be bribed like that, what stops them from taking bribes once they have jobs, to do something not very, eh, ethical perhaps?"</p><p>Well first of all these kids are being paid to do something ethical so it doesn't follow that it teaches them its okay to be paid to do something unethical. But even if they did grow up to take bribes to do unethical things... how would that be any different than whatever we are doing now?</p><p>I doubt the system could get much more corrupt. In the U.S. the general populace takes it in the rear about as much as in any nation on earth. The difference is that in the U.S. when they sodomize you they smile, use lubrication, and give you a sucker afterward and say it was for your own good. Besides they immediately point at those other evil nations that don't use lube, how cruel that they don't get lube. That seems to be enough to prevent enough righteous indignation against those who are sodomizing us to actually take any sort of action to stop it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" If those kids get used to be bribed like that , what stops them from taking bribes once they have jobs , to do something not very , eh , ethical perhaps ?
" Well first of all these kids are being paid to do something ethical so it does n't follow that it teaches them its okay to be paid to do something unethical .
But even if they did grow up to take bribes to do unethical things... how would that be any different than whatever we are doing now ? I doubt the system could get much more corrupt .
In the U.S. the general populace takes it in the rear about as much as in any nation on earth .
The difference is that in the U.S. when they sodomize you they smile , use lubrication , and give you a sucker afterward and say it was for your own good .
Besides they immediately point at those other evil nations that do n't use lube , how cruel that they do n't get lube .
That seems to be enough to prevent enough righteous indignation against those who are sodomizing us to actually take any sort of action to stop it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"If those kids get used to be bribed like that, what stops them from taking bribes once they have jobs, to do something not very, eh, ethical perhaps?
"Well first of all these kids are being paid to do something ethical so it doesn't follow that it teaches them its okay to be paid to do something unethical.
But even if they did grow up to take bribes to do unethical things... how would that be any different than whatever we are doing now?I doubt the system could get much more corrupt.
In the U.S. the general populace takes it in the rear about as much as in any nation on earth.
The difference is that in the U.S. when they sodomize you they smile, use lubrication, and give you a sucker afterward and say it was for your own good.
Besides they immediately point at those other evil nations that don't use lube, how cruel that they don't get lube.
That seems to be enough to prevent enough righteous indignation against those who are sodomizing us to actually take any sort of action to stop it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254099</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255085</id>
	<title>How much $ to not troll around on slashdot?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244494260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>nuf sed</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>nuf sed</tokentext>
<sentencetext>nuf sed</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254143</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>farker haiku</author>
	<datestamp>1244490600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Offtopic, but your sig is great.  I never thought I'd agree with anything that Rush said.  Like, ever.  Who knew?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Offtopic , but your sig is great .
I never thought I 'd agree with anything that Rush said .
Like , ever .
Who knew ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Offtopic, but your sig is great.
I never thought I'd agree with anything that Rush said.
Like, ever.
Who knew?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253637</id>
	<title>Education's sake?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244488620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Maybe I'm an anomaly, but I'm only getting a degree to earn more.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe I 'm an anomaly , but I 'm only getting a degree to earn more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe I'm an anomaly, but I'm only getting a degree to earn more.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254323</id>
	<title>Re:Don't kid yourelves</title>
	<author>NeoSkandranon</author>
	<datestamp>1244491320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"I don't buy the BS that homework is an important life lesson"</p><p>Having to harden up and do shit you don't enjoy sure is an important life lesson. If you don't think so, your life's been pretty easy so far.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" I do n't buy the BS that homework is an important life lesson " Having to harden up and do shit you do n't enjoy sure is an important life lesson .
If you do n't think so , your life 's been pretty easy so far .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"I don't buy the BS that homework is an important life lesson"Having to harden up and do shit you don't enjoy sure is an important life lesson.
If you don't think so, your life's been pretty easy so far.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253847</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256935</id>
	<title>Re:weird</title>
	<author>shaitand</author>
	<datestamp>1244456880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My parent didn't, she just didn't couldn't afford to pay me for the grades. Since the work was particularly boring even though I had a passion for learning I had no interest in school or institutionalism. So instead I pursued what was hard for me, socializing. This led to drugs, skipping class, and dropping out. Of course I always aced the final exams of each class I failed.</p><p>It wasn't until later that I matured, began to think longer term and of course went back and got the education I needed... and the massive debt and higher price tags that come with not doing it right the first time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My parent did n't , she just did n't could n't afford to pay me for the grades .
Since the work was particularly boring even though I had a passion for learning I had no interest in school or institutionalism .
So instead I pursued what was hard for me , socializing .
This led to drugs , skipping class , and dropping out .
Of course I always aced the final exams of each class I failed.It was n't until later that I matured , began to think longer term and of course went back and got the education I needed... and the massive debt and higher price tags that come with not doing it right the first time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My parent didn't, she just didn't couldn't afford to pay me for the grades.
Since the work was particularly boring even though I had a passion for learning I had no interest in school or institutionalism.
So instead I pursued what was hard for me, socializing.
This led to drugs, skipping class, and dropping out.
Of course I always aced the final exams of each class I failed.It wasn't until later that I matured, began to think longer term and of course went back and got the education I needed... and the massive debt and higher price tags that come with not doing it right the first time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255957</id>
	<title>Re:Combine this with school choice</title>
	<author>Fnord666</author>
	<datestamp>1244453520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Before long children will be asking to transfer to the schools that pay the best.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
Why not?  Why should the athletes reap all of the rewards?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Before long children will be asking to transfer to the schools that pay the best .
Why not ?
Why should the athletes reap all of the rewards ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Before long children will be asking to transfer to the schools that pay the best.
Why not?
Why should the athletes reap all of the rewards?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253667</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254567</id>
	<title>The opposite?</title>
	<author>FatherOfONe</author>
	<datestamp>1244492400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is the opposite true?  If you hit your kids for bad grades does that help?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p><p>In the end would that be cheaper?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is the opposite true ?
If you hit your kids for bad grades does that help ?
: - ) In the end would that be cheaper ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is the opposite true?
If you hit your kids for bad grades does that help?
:-)In the end would that be cheaper?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254577</id>
	<title>Re:Education's sake?</title>
	<author>gnick</author>
	<datestamp>1244492400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Hell, I only got a degree so I could put off working another six years (what?  change majors a few times, and you too can turn a four-year stint in <b>lazy paradise</b> into six years).</p></div><p>Wow - Your college experience was a helluva lot different than mine.  When I was in school, I was working my ass off to cover tuition, books, rent, food, etc.  And earning an engineering degree besides.  I was in school for 6 years too, but only because I wanted a Master's, I managed to graduate High School as a college Sophomore, and I had to bail out of school a couple of times to take internships/co-ops that paid more than I could make locally.</p><p>Lazy paradise?  I remember a foggy sleep-deprived existence that involved short naps between busting ass.  What's your trick?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hell , I only got a degree so I could put off working another six years ( what ?
change majors a few times , and you too can turn a four-year stint in lazy paradise into six years ) .Wow - Your college experience was a helluva lot different than mine .
When I was in school , I was working my ass off to cover tuition , books , rent , food , etc .
And earning an engineering degree besides .
I was in school for 6 years too , but only because I wanted a Master 's , I managed to graduate High School as a college Sophomore , and I had to bail out of school a couple of times to take internships/co-ops that paid more than I could make locally.Lazy paradise ?
I remember a foggy sleep-deprived existence that involved short naps between busting ass .
What 's your trick ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hell, I only got a degree so I could put off working another six years (what?
change majors a few times, and you too can turn a four-year stint in lazy paradise into six years).Wow - Your college experience was a helluva lot different than mine.
When I was in school, I was working my ass off to cover tuition, books, rent, food, etc.
And earning an engineering degree besides.
I was in school for 6 years too, but only because I wanted a Master's, I managed to graduate High School as a college Sophomore, and I had to bail out of school a couple of times to take internships/co-ops that paid more than I could make locally.Lazy paradise?
I remember a foggy sleep-deprived existence that involved short naps between busting ass.
What's your trick?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253907</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253739</id>
	<title>Who'da thunk?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1244488920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The idea that offering real rewards for achievement would make a difference is something that should have been obvious to anyone. This environment of PC-Everybody-Gets-A-Trophy has really screwed people up quite badly. I will be very glad when the whole PC mentality gets scrapped.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The idea that offering real rewards for achievement would make a difference is something that should have been obvious to anyone .
This environment of PC-Everybody-Gets-A-Trophy has really screwed people up quite badly .
I will be very glad when the whole PC mentality gets scrapped .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The idea that offering real rewards for achievement would make a difference is something that should have been obvious to anyone.
This environment of PC-Everybody-Gets-A-Trophy has really screwed people up quite badly.
I will be very glad when the whole PC mentality gets scrapped.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28262371</id>
	<title>My Trifecta.</title>
	<author>IronClad</author>
	<datestamp>1244577960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sorry to hear that. I'd like to chime in on this one.</p><p>I have 3 lovely, well adjusted, funny, principled, intelligent daughters. I do not deserve them.</p><p>All 3 were valedictorians of their HS, without pushing by us.</p><p>Anecdotal? Perhaps, but harder to argue with results * 3.</p><p>I've never before shared this much info about what we did. FWIW, YMMV, etc.</p><p>1) Give them the gift of self esteem. Demonstrate your believe in their intrinsic worth, and act out of love only. This does not mean giving them every toy they want, but it does mean make sacrifices when you can for the best aspirations of your kids, and constantly showing them how much you appreciate them. Be sentimental and approachable. I think my kids knew I would have been no less their fan if they were D students.</p><p>2) They need you, give them all of you. Don't hold back and don't ever fake it with them. They know you; no double standards! If that movie is bad for your kids, parents can do without watching it. Schedule regular whole-family time and 1:1 time.  Family dinners together are important.</p><p>3) Humor and curiosity are some of the best tools. Demonstrate them. Memorize funny poems, make music together, show how to take things apart, and keep it all upbeat, even crazy.</p><p>4)  Don't let anyone else raise your kids. That includes daycare and school systems. I lean toward public school system over homeschooling, and it worked out for us, but that depended on what the system had to work with. Social development and problem solving is important. So are friends. Be involved parents, room mothers, etc. Know the kids in their K-6 classes; they end up on your doorstep asking for dates. Here's the tough part, but it proved extremely important: I barely made a living wage and my wife made more than me when we decided one would stay home. It was her call who would. I don't know if I would be able to look my kids in the eyes if we hadn't sacrificed.</p><p>5) Money incentives? Oh ya. Make cash match effort was my philosophy. They got a pittance for base allowances but kept job-journals as they learned to write and were richly rewarded for finding new ways to help. In school, the first A is the easiest, even hard not to get. That last A is a bear, it's the subject they don't like. My kids got $1 for the first A, and the pay doubled for each additional A. They nearly bankrupted me. Long term, the investment works out. The youngest just took her MCAT.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry to hear that .
I 'd like to chime in on this one.I have 3 lovely , well adjusted , funny , principled , intelligent daughters .
I do not deserve them.All 3 were valedictorians of their HS , without pushing by us.Anecdotal ?
Perhaps , but harder to argue with results * 3.I 've never before shared this much info about what we did .
FWIW , YMMV , etc.1 ) Give them the gift of self esteem .
Demonstrate your believe in their intrinsic worth , and act out of love only .
This does not mean giving them every toy they want , but it does mean make sacrifices when you can for the best aspirations of your kids , and constantly showing them how much you appreciate them .
Be sentimental and approachable .
I think my kids knew I would have been no less their fan if they were D students.2 ) They need you , give them all of you .
Do n't hold back and do n't ever fake it with them .
They know you ; no double standards !
If that movie is bad for your kids , parents can do without watching it .
Schedule regular whole-family time and 1 : 1 time .
Family dinners together are important.3 ) Humor and curiosity are some of the best tools .
Demonstrate them .
Memorize funny poems , make music together , show how to take things apart , and keep it all upbeat , even crazy.4 ) Do n't let anyone else raise your kids .
That includes daycare and school systems .
I lean toward public school system over homeschooling , and it worked out for us , but that depended on what the system had to work with .
Social development and problem solving is important .
So are friends .
Be involved parents , room mothers , etc .
Know the kids in their K-6 classes ; they end up on your doorstep asking for dates .
Here 's the tough part , but it proved extremely important : I barely made a living wage and my wife made more than me when we decided one would stay home .
It was her call who would .
I do n't know if I would be able to look my kids in the eyes if we had n't sacrificed.5 ) Money incentives ?
Oh ya .
Make cash match effort was my philosophy .
They got a pittance for base allowances but kept job-journals as they learned to write and were richly rewarded for finding new ways to help .
In school , the first A is the easiest , even hard not to get .
That last A is a bear , it 's the subject they do n't like .
My kids got $ 1 for the first A , and the pay doubled for each additional A. They nearly bankrupted me .
Long term , the investment works out .
The youngest just took her MCAT .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry to hear that.
I'd like to chime in on this one.I have 3 lovely, well adjusted, funny, principled, intelligent daughters.
I do not deserve them.All 3 were valedictorians of their HS, without pushing by us.Anecdotal?
Perhaps, but harder to argue with results * 3.I've never before shared this much info about what we did.
FWIW, YMMV, etc.1) Give them the gift of self esteem.
Demonstrate your believe in their intrinsic worth, and act out of love only.
This does not mean giving them every toy they want, but it does mean make sacrifices when you can for the best aspirations of your kids, and constantly showing them how much you appreciate them.
Be sentimental and approachable.
I think my kids knew I would have been no less their fan if they were D students.2) They need you, give them all of you.
Don't hold back and don't ever fake it with them.
They know you; no double standards!
If that movie is bad for your kids, parents can do without watching it.
Schedule regular whole-family time and 1:1 time.
Family dinners together are important.3) Humor and curiosity are some of the best tools.
Demonstrate them.
Memorize funny poems, make music together, show how to take things apart, and keep it all upbeat, even crazy.4)  Don't let anyone else raise your kids.
That includes daycare and school systems.
I lean toward public school system over homeschooling, and it worked out for us, but that depended on what the system had to work with.
Social development and problem solving is important.
So are friends.
Be involved parents, room mothers, etc.
Know the kids in their K-6 classes; they end up on your doorstep asking for dates.
Here's the tough part, but it proved extremely important: I barely made a living wage and my wife made more than me when we decided one would stay home.
It was her call who would.
I don't know if I would be able to look my kids in the eyes if we hadn't sacrificed.5) Money incentives?
Oh ya.
Make cash match effort was my philosophy.
They got a pittance for base allowances but kept job-journals as they learned to write and were richly rewarded for finding new ways to help.
In school, the first A is the easiest, even hard not to get.
That last A is a bear, it's the subject they don't like.
My kids got $1 for the first A, and the pay doubled for each additional A. They nearly bankrupted me.
Long term, the investment works out.
The youngest just took her MCAT.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28256583</id>
	<title>Re:Compete with drugs</title>
	<author>mckniffen</author>
	<datestamp>1244455560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>the problem is that you can earn a lot more than $500 selling drugs. In fact, just casually selling I made more than that a week back in high school, before I put that business behind me.</htmltext>
<tokenext>the problem is that you can earn a lot more than $ 500 selling drugs .
In fact , just casually selling I made more than that a week back in high school , before I put that business behind me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the problem is that you can earn a lot more than $500 selling drugs.
In fact, just casually selling I made more than that a week back in high school, before I put that business behind me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253973</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28255125</id>
	<title>Re:Overjustification effect</title>
	<author>migla</author>
	<datestamp>1244494380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hear hear!</p><p>I came here to post what you said, but since you all ready said it, I'll offer another point:</p><p>This scheme would not have worked on me (or if it would, it would have spoiled me, IMO).</p><p>If someone tries to bribe me, I get pissed and there's no more chance I'll do what they want.</p><p>Could we chip in and start a fund for kids with who show integrity and will tell the manipulating adults to go fuck themselves?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hear hear ! I came here to post what you said , but since you all ready said it , I 'll offer another point : This scheme would not have worked on me ( or if it would , it would have spoiled me , IMO ) .If someone tries to bribe me , I get pissed and there 's no more chance I 'll do what they want.Could we chip in and start a fund for kids with who show integrity and will tell the manipulating adults to go fuck themselves ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hear hear!I came here to post what you said, but since you all ready said it, I'll offer another point:This scheme would not have worked on me (or if it would, it would have spoiled me, IMO).If someone tries to bribe me, I get pissed and there's no more chance I'll do what they want.Could we chip in and start a fund for kids with who show integrity and will tell the manipulating adults to go fuck themselves?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254507</id>
	<title>Buying work</title>
	<author>heatseeker\_around</author>
	<datestamp>1244492160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>They can buy already-done-work with this money. No motivation here, except for cheating more easily.</htmltext>
<tokenext>They can buy already-done-work with this money .
No motivation here , except for cheating more easily .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They can buy already-done-work with this money.
No motivation here, except for cheating more easily.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_21</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253787
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</commentlist>
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_39</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253717
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254099
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_70</id>
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_103</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253689
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_44</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253927
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_69</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254209
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</commentlist>
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_4</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253903
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_6</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253755
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_63</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_34</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_97</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253731
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_13</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253795
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<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_118</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253697
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_27</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28253847
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254423
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_87</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment09_06_08_1557210.28254209
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_64</id>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_09_06_08_1557210_92</id>
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