<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_31_1718250</id>
	<title><em>Stand and Deliver</em> Teacher Jaime Escalante Dies</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1270056240000</datestamp>
	<htmltext><a href="mailto:DesScorp@Gmai\%5B\%5Dom\%5B'l.c'ingap\%5D" rel="nofollow">DesScorp</a> writes <i>"<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime\_Escalante">Jaime Escalante</a>, the math teacher portrayed in the hit '80s movie <em>Stand and Deliver</em>, has <a href="http://www.kansascity.com/2010/03/31/1848334/jaime-escalante-stand-and-deliver.html">died of cancer at age 79</a>. Escalante is legendary for creating the advanced math 'pipeline' program at <a href="http://garfieldhs.org/">Garfield High</a> in East Los Angeles in the '70s and '80s, an area populated mostly by poorer Hispanic families. Escalante's students eventually outpaced even richer schools in advanced placement tests for calculus. Escalante refused to accept excuses from his students or community about why they couldn't succeed, and demanded a standard of excellence from them, defying the notion that poor Hispanic kids just weren't capable of advanced work. While Escalante became a celebrity because of the hit movie about his efforts, jealousy from other teachers ... as well as red tape from teacher's unions and the public school bureaucracy, resulted in Escalante and his hand-picked teachers leaving Garfield. Since his departure, Garfield has never replicated  Escalante's success with math students, and Reason Magazine reported on the shameful way in which others <a href="http://reason.com/archives/2002/07/01/stand-and-deliver-revisited/">tore down what Escalante and his teachers worked so hard to build</a>."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>DesScorp writes " Jaime Escalante , the math teacher portrayed in the hit '80s movie Stand and Deliver , has died of cancer at age 79 .
Escalante is legendary for creating the advanced math 'pipeline ' program at Garfield High in East Los Angeles in the '70s and '80s , an area populated mostly by poorer Hispanic families .
Escalante 's students eventually outpaced even richer schools in advanced placement tests for calculus .
Escalante refused to accept excuses from his students or community about why they could n't succeed , and demanded a standard of excellence from them , defying the notion that poor Hispanic kids just were n't capable of advanced work .
While Escalante became a celebrity because of the hit movie about his efforts , jealousy from other teachers ... as well as red tape from teacher 's unions and the public school bureaucracy , resulted in Escalante and his hand-picked teachers leaving Garfield .
Since his departure , Garfield has never replicated Escalante 's success with math students , and Reason Magazine reported on the shameful way in which others tore down what Escalante and his teachers worked so hard to build .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>DesScorp writes "Jaime Escalante, the math teacher portrayed in the hit '80s movie Stand and Deliver, has died of cancer at age 79.
Escalante is legendary for creating the advanced math 'pipeline' program at Garfield High in East Los Angeles in the '70s and '80s, an area populated mostly by poorer Hispanic families.
Escalante's students eventually outpaced even richer schools in advanced placement tests for calculus.
Escalante refused to accept excuses from his students or community about why they couldn't succeed, and demanded a standard of excellence from them, defying the notion that poor Hispanic kids just weren't capable of advanced work.
While Escalante became a celebrity because of the hit movie about his efforts, jealousy from other teachers ... as well as red tape from teacher's unions and the public school bureaucracy, resulted in Escalante and his hand-picked teachers leaving Garfield.
Since his departure, Garfield has never replicated  Escalante's success with math students, and Reason Magazine reported on the shameful way in which others tore down what Escalante and his teachers worked so hard to build.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690234</id>
	<title>Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270060860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>People tend to live up to other people's expectations. Teachers don't expect Black and Hispanic students to do well. Yes, ultimately people are responsible for their own success or failure, but it doesn't help when you've got teachers telling young kids "It doesn't matter if you do your homework or not -- we'll promote you anyway" (and yes, my ethnic daughter was actually told this by her teacher -- the same teacher that threatened to sue me for complaining she wasn't doing her job.)</htmltext>
<tokenext>People tend to live up to other people 's expectations .
Teachers do n't expect Black and Hispanic students to do well .
Yes , ultimately people are responsible for their own success or failure , but it does n't help when you 've got teachers telling young kids " It does n't matter if you do your homework or not -- we 'll promote you anyway " ( and yes , my ethnic daughter was actually told this by her teacher -- the same teacher that threatened to sue me for complaining she was n't doing her job .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People tend to live up to other people's expectations.
Teachers don't expect Black and Hispanic students to do well.
Yes, ultimately people are responsible for their own success or failure, but it doesn't help when you've got teachers telling young kids "It doesn't matter if you do your homework or not -- we'll promote you anyway" (and yes, my ethnic daughter was actually told this by her teacher -- the same teacher that threatened to sue me for complaining she wasn't doing her job.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690014</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690728</id>
	<title>Re:Rest in peace.</title>
	<author>Lunix Nutcase</author>
	<datestamp>1270062900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or instead of wasting time and resources on trivial things like naming and renaming schools (does the name of the school <i>really</i> mean anything?) they should instead be working to foster more teachers like Escalante.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or instead of wasting time and resources on trivial things like naming and renaming schools ( does the name of the school really mean anything ?
) they should instead be working to foster more teachers like Escalante .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or instead of wasting time and resources on trivial things like naming and renaming schools (does the name of the school really mean anything?
) they should instead be working to foster more teachers like Escalante.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31689990</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690392</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>spun</author>
	<datestamp>1270061640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Obviously, the answer to the problem of owning class people gaming the system in their favor is to do away with all government oversight of the owning class, and sell the government to them wholesale. Because, if we had an unregulated free market, all the little mom and pop operations would rise up against their corporate masters and we would immediately have a free and fair market in everything. Obviously, the government is not protecting the little guy from the owning class, they are keeping the little guy down for the owning class.</p><p>But wait, if all that is true, why is it the owning class telling us this? Why are the rich leading the charge to get rid of government regulations? Are they trying to use reverse psychology on us or something?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Obviously , the answer to the problem of owning class people gaming the system in their favor is to do away with all government oversight of the owning class , and sell the government to them wholesale .
Because , if we had an unregulated free market , all the little mom and pop operations would rise up against their corporate masters and we would immediately have a free and fair market in everything .
Obviously , the government is not protecting the little guy from the owning class , they are keeping the little guy down for the owning class.But wait , if all that is true , why is it the owning class telling us this ?
Why are the rich leading the charge to get rid of government regulations ?
Are they trying to use reverse psychology on us or something ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Obviously, the answer to the problem of owning class people gaming the system in their favor is to do away with all government oversight of the owning class, and sell the government to them wholesale.
Because, if we had an unregulated free market, all the little mom and pop operations would rise up against their corporate masters and we would immediately have a free and fair market in everything.
Obviously, the government is not protecting the little guy from the owning class, they are keeping the little guy down for the owning class.But wait, if all that is true, why is it the owning class telling us this?
Why are the rich leading the charge to get rid of government regulations?
Are they trying to use reverse psychology on us or something?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690078</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691226</id>
	<title>Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270064820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sounds like you have a racist teaching in that school.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sounds like you have a racist teaching in that school .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sounds like you have a racist teaching in that school.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690234</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690872</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>gad\_zuki!</author>
	<datestamp>1270063440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;Because, if we had an unregulated free market, all the little mom and pop operations would rise up against their corporate masters and we would immediately have a free and fair market in everything.</p><p>Or<nobr> <wbr></nobr>,you know, what would actually happen. Big companies would crush these little nobodies by selling with major losses until they go broke or other dirty tricks that are banned by regulation.</p><p>Its hilarious that you believe all regulation exists to further the largest companies and that a free market is a solution to all our economic woes.  There's no such thing as a free market, its a fiction that is only able to exists because of government regulation else it becomes fraud and abuse central where only the biggest players win.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; Because , if we had an unregulated free market , all the little mom and pop operations would rise up against their corporate masters and we would immediately have a free and fair market in everything.Or ,you know , what would actually happen .
Big companies would crush these little nobodies by selling with major losses until they go broke or other dirty tricks that are banned by regulation.Its hilarious that you believe all regulation exists to further the largest companies and that a free market is a solution to all our economic woes .
There 's no such thing as a free market , its a fiction that is only able to exists because of government regulation else it becomes fraud and abuse central where only the biggest players win .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;Because, if we had an unregulated free market, all the little mom and pop operations would rise up against their corporate masters and we would immediately have a free and fair market in everything.Or ,you know, what would actually happen.
Big companies would crush these little nobodies by selling with major losses until they go broke or other dirty tricks that are banned by regulation.Its hilarious that you believe all regulation exists to further the largest companies and that a free market is a solution to all our economic woes.
There's no such thing as a free market, its a fiction that is only able to exists because of government regulation else it becomes fraud and abuse central where only the biggest players win.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690392</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692452</id>
	<title>Re:Shining Example</title>
	<author>Calithulu</author>
	<datestamp>1270026240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I suggest you check (or at least list) your sources. There has been a long running internet hoax regarding this exact topic.</p><p> <a href="http://sq.4mg.com/IQpolitics.htm" title="4mg.com">The best source I have</a> [4mg.com] makes a good faith attempt to estimate average IQs by state from SAT and ACT scores. However, as you can imagine that isn't exactly definitive. It also lists the methodology for how the results were arrived at.</p><p> <a href="http://sq.4mg.com/IQstates.htm" title="4mg.com">The original numbers</a> [4mg.com], made by someone trying to claim that states that vote for one political party over another are smarter (in this case liberals though I've heard of conservative claims as well), has been debunked repeatedly. Frankly, it is a sad state of affairs when people have to make up lies in order to further their political or ideological viewpoint.</p><p>If you're interested, the <a href="http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/education/cps2008.html" title="census.gov">US Census keeps records on education attainment level by ethnicity</a> [census.gov] as well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I suggest you check ( or at least list ) your sources .
There has been a long running internet hoax regarding this exact topic .
The best source I have [ 4mg.com ] makes a good faith attempt to estimate average IQs by state from SAT and ACT scores .
However , as you can imagine that is n't exactly definitive .
It also lists the methodology for how the results were arrived at .
The original numbers [ 4mg.com ] , made by someone trying to claim that states that vote for one political party over another are smarter ( in this case liberals though I 've heard of conservative claims as well ) , has been debunked repeatedly .
Frankly , it is a sad state of affairs when people have to make up lies in order to further their political or ideological viewpoint.If you 're interested , the US Census keeps records on education attainment level by ethnicity [ census.gov ] as well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I suggest you check (or at least list) your sources.
There has been a long running internet hoax regarding this exact topic.
The best source I have [4mg.com] makes a good faith attempt to estimate average IQs by state from SAT and ACT scores.
However, as you can imagine that isn't exactly definitive.
It also lists the methodology for how the results were arrived at.
The original numbers [4mg.com], made by someone trying to claim that states that vote for one political party over another are smarter (in this case liberals though I've heard of conservative claims as well), has been debunked repeatedly.
Frankly, it is a sad state of affairs when people have to make up lies in order to further their political or ideological viewpoint.If you're interested, the US Census keeps records on education attainment level by ethnicity [census.gov] as well.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690380</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690486</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270062000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>"I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers." - John D. Rockefeller</p></div></blockquote><p>He's still calling the shots, is he?   Plutocrats are bad enough, but zombie plutocrats is just going too far.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" I do n't want a nation of thinkers , I want a nation of workers .
" - John D. RockefellerHe 's still calling the shots , is he ?
Plutocrats are bad enough , but zombie plutocrats is just going too far .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers.
" - John D. RockefellerHe's still calling the shots, is he?
Plutocrats are bad enough, but zombie plutocrats is just going too far.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690078</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692046</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>khallow</author>
	<datestamp>1270068120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Chiefly because exposing school systems to a competitive market implicitly accepts that some schools will fall into even worse decay that they currently are. Poor schools become poorer, with little funding to hire better teachers or acquire better books.</p> </div><p>That is a feature not a bug. End the existence of these terrible schools. It's not the job of education, public or otherwise to waste and fritter away the lives of thousands of hapless students.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Chiefly because exposing school systems to a competitive market implicitly accepts that some schools will fall into even worse decay that they currently are .
Poor schools become poorer , with little funding to hire better teachers or acquire better books .
That is a feature not a bug .
End the existence of these terrible schools .
It 's not the job of education , public or otherwise to waste and fritter away the lives of thousands of hapless students .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Chiefly because exposing school systems to a competitive market implicitly accepts that some schools will fall into even worse decay that they currently are.
Poor schools become poorer, with little funding to hire better teachers or acquire better books.
That is a feature not a bug.
End the existence of these terrible schools.
It's not the job of education, public or otherwise to waste and fritter away the lives of thousands of hapless students.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690468</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31693660</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>hondo77</author>
	<datestamp>1270031160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Explain to me how this is a "leftist extremist" point of view.</p></div><p>It's simple: the poster is not an ideologue. He/she holds mostly leftist views but finds some views on the other side of the fence not so bad. It's a benefit of having an open mind.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Explain to me how this is a " leftist extremist " point of view.It 's simple : the poster is not an ideologue .
He/she holds mostly leftist views but finds some views on the other side of the fence not so bad .
It 's a benefit of having an open mind .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Explain to me how this is a "leftist extremist" point of view.It's simple: the poster is not an ideologue.
He/she holds mostly leftist views but finds some views on the other side of the fence not so bad.
It's a benefit of having an open mind.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690842</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690540</id>
	<title>Re:Truly</title>
	<author>MarkvW</author>
	<datestamp>1270062180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Should have rtfa.  Mr. Escalante was of Bolivian heritage.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Should have rtfa .
Mr. Escalante was of Bolivian heritage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Should have rtfa.
Mr. Escalante was of Bolivian heritage.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31689974</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31697620</id>
	<title>Re:Rest in peace.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270059300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They will man, they will. RIP Mr. Escalante.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They will man , they will .
RIP Mr. Escalante .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They will man, they will.
RIP Mr. Escalante.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31689990</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691454</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>corbettw</author>
	<datestamp>1270065720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>As schools are not objects which can house an infinite number of students, some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral - schools that are not only sub-par, but lacking funding and interaction with a diverse body of students, since all the brightest have made it into the "nice" schools.</p></div><p>Spoken like someone who truly does not understand the law of supply and demand. If there are students (or more accurately, parents) demanding good schools, and money is available, then entrepreneurs will fill the gap. There won't be any failing schools, because crappy teachers will get fired.</p><p>Here's an example: know what happens when the local Montessori school gets too full and can't accept more students? The same thing that happens when the lines get too long at the corner gas station: a competitor opens up another after realizing the market opportunity that exists.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As schools are not objects which can house an infinite number of students , some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral - schools that are not only sub-par , but lacking funding and interaction with a diverse body of students , since all the brightest have made it into the " nice " schools.Spoken like someone who truly does not understand the law of supply and demand .
If there are students ( or more accurately , parents ) demanding good schools , and money is available , then entrepreneurs will fill the gap .
There wo n't be any failing schools , because crappy teachers will get fired.Here 's an example : know what happens when the local Montessori school gets too full and ca n't accept more students ?
The same thing that happens when the lines get too long at the corner gas station : a competitor opens up another after realizing the market opportunity that exists .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As schools are not objects which can house an infinite number of students, some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral - schools that are not only sub-par, but lacking funding and interaction with a diverse body of students, since all the brightest have made it into the "nice" schools.Spoken like someone who truly does not understand the law of supply and demand.
If there are students (or more accurately, parents) demanding good schools, and money is available, then entrepreneurs will fill the gap.
There won't be any failing schools, because crappy teachers will get fired.Here's an example: know what happens when the local Montessori school gets too full and can't accept more students?
The same thing that happens when the lines get too long at the corner gas station: a competitor opens up another after realizing the market opportunity that exists.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690468</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692176</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270068540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ignorance and fear make a powerfully self-destructive team.  Even even the courage of Mr. Escalante could not hold it back for long.  It is amazing what he accomplished in spite of it.  The good news about ignorance and fear is that usually gets exploited and destroyed by those with the balls and savvy to manipulate it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ignorance and fear make a powerfully self-destructive team .
Even even the courage of Mr. Escalante could not hold it back for long .
It is amazing what he accomplished in spite of it .
The good news about ignorance and fear is that usually gets exploited and destroyed by those with the balls and savvy to manipulate it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ignorance and fear make a powerfully self-destructive team.
Even even the courage of Mr. Escalante could not hold it back for long.
It is amazing what he accomplished in spite of it.
The good news about ignorance and fear is that usually gets exploited and destroyed by those with the balls and savvy to manipulate it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690078</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31689990</id>
	<title>Rest in peace.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270060020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm going to cry. Really.<br>I had the blessing to meet Mr. Escalante just a few months ago, before he was diagnosed with cancer. What a wonderful, wonderful man.</p><p>They should name schools after people like him.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm going to cry .
Really.I had the blessing to meet Mr. Escalante just a few months ago , before he was diagnosed with cancer .
What a wonderful , wonderful man.They should name schools after people like him .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm going to cry.
Really.I had the blessing to meet Mr. Escalante just a few months ago, before he was diagnosed with cancer.
What a wonderful, wonderful man.They should name schools after people like him.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690078</id>
	<title>Public schools</title>
	<author>megamerican</author>
	<datestamp>1270060260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's no wonder he got lots of resistance against his peers, administration and teachers union. Public schools are not about education, its about creating dumbed down automatons who are easily controlled.</p><p><a href="http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/" title="deliberate...ngdown.com" rel="nofollow">"I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers."</a> [deliberate...ngdown.com] - John D. Rockefeller</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's no wonder he got lots of resistance against his peers , administration and teachers union .
Public schools are not about education , its about creating dumbed down automatons who are easily controlled .
" I do n't want a nation of thinkers , I want a nation of workers .
" [ deliberate...ngdown.com ] - John D. Rockefeller</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's no wonder he got lots of resistance against his peers, administration and teachers union.
Public schools are not about education, its about creating dumbed down automatons who are easily controlled.
"I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers.
" [deliberate...ngdown.com] - John D. Rockefeller</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691258</id>
	<title>Going beyond vouchers</title>
	<author>Paul Fernhout</author>
	<datestamp>1270064940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Let's just give the school money directly to the parents instead of schools, as I suggest here in some detail:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; "Towards a Post-Scarcity New York State of Mind (through homeschooling)"<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://www.pdfernhout.net/towards-a-post-scarcity-new-york-state-of-mind.html" title="pdfernhout.net">http://www.pdfernhout.net/towards-a-post-scarcity-new-york-state-of-mind.html</a> [pdfernhout.net]<br>"""<br>New York State current spends roughly 20,000 US dollars per schooled child per year to support the public school system. This essay suggests that the same amount of money be given directly to the family of each homeschooled child. Further, it suggests that eventually all parents would get this amount, as more and more families decide to homeschool because it is suddenly easier financially. It suggests why ultimately this will be a win/win situation for everyone involved (including parents, children, teachers, school staff, other people in the community, and even school administrators<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-) because ultimately local schools will grow into larger vibrant community learning centers open to anyone in the community and looking more like college campuses. New York State could try this plan incrementally in a few different school districts across the state as pilot programs to see how it works out. This may seem like an unlikely idea to be adopted at first, but at least it is a starting point for building a positive vision of the future for all children in all our communities.<br>"""</p><p>We should also implement a basic income (social security and medicare for all, without age limits or a means test) for everyone as a human right, while we are at it:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic\_income" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic\_income</a> [wikipedia.org]<br>If every person got a basic income, everyone could afford to purchase the education they wanted from the market.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Let 's just give the school money directly to the parents instead of schools , as I suggest here in some detail :     " Towards a Post-Scarcity New York State of Mind ( through homeschooling ) "     http : //www.pdfernhout.net/towards-a-post-scarcity-new-york-state-of-mind.html [ pdfernhout.net ] " " " New York State current spends roughly 20,000 US dollars per schooled child per year to support the public school system .
This essay suggests that the same amount of money be given directly to the family of each homeschooled child .
Further , it suggests that eventually all parents would get this amount , as more and more families decide to homeschool because it is suddenly easier financially .
It suggests why ultimately this will be a win/win situation for everyone involved ( including parents , children , teachers , school staff , other people in the community , and even school administrators : - ) because ultimately local schools will grow into larger vibrant community learning centers open to anyone in the community and looking more like college campuses .
New York State could try this plan incrementally in a few different school districts across the state as pilot programs to see how it works out .
This may seem like an unlikely idea to be adopted at first , but at least it is a starting point for building a positive vision of the future for all children in all our communities .
" " " We should also implement a basic income ( social security and medicare for all , without age limits or a means test ) for everyone as a human right , while we are at it :     http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic \ _income [ wikipedia.org ] If every person got a basic income , everyone could afford to purchase the education they wanted from the market .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let's just give the school money directly to the parents instead of schools, as I suggest here in some detail:
    "Towards a Post-Scarcity New York State of Mind (through homeschooling)"
    http://www.pdfernhout.net/towards-a-post-scarcity-new-york-state-of-mind.html [pdfernhout.net]"""New York State current spends roughly 20,000 US dollars per schooled child per year to support the public school system.
This essay suggests that the same amount of money be given directly to the family of each homeschooled child.
Further, it suggests that eventually all parents would get this amount, as more and more families decide to homeschool because it is suddenly easier financially.
It suggests why ultimately this will be a win/win situation for everyone involved (including parents, children, teachers, school staff, other people in the community, and even school administrators :-) because ultimately local schools will grow into larger vibrant community learning centers open to anyone in the community and looking more like college campuses.
New York State could try this plan incrementally in a few different school districts across the state as pilot programs to see how it works out.
This may seem like an unlikely idea to be adopted at first, but at least it is a starting point for building a positive vision of the future for all children in all our communities.
"""We should also implement a basic income (social security and medicare for all, without age limits or a means test) for everyone as a human right, while we are at it:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic\_income [wikipedia.org]If every person got a basic income, everyone could afford to purchase the education they wanted from the market.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692896</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270027800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Arguably, Rockefeller's quote was probably out of context.  Take a look at cable news and its endless bobblehead analysis and opinion to see what you get with a preponderance of so-called "thinkers".  The root causes of anti-intellectualism will be made quite clear after listening to these wankers yammer away hour after hour, day after day.</p><p>There's real thinkers who call themselves workers, and there's those who loudly declaim themselves as thinkers.  Me?  I'm just another asshole with an opinion who's just not polished enough to get his own cable news show.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Arguably , Rockefeller 's quote was probably out of context .
Take a look at cable news and its endless bobblehead analysis and opinion to see what you get with a preponderance of so-called " thinkers " .
The root causes of anti-intellectualism will be made quite clear after listening to these wankers yammer away hour after hour , day after day.There 's real thinkers who call themselves workers , and there 's those who loudly declaim themselves as thinkers .
Me ? I 'm just another asshole with an opinion who 's just not polished enough to get his own cable news show .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Arguably, Rockefeller's quote was probably out of context.
Take a look at cable news and its endless bobblehead analysis and opinion to see what you get with a preponderance of so-called "thinkers".
The root causes of anti-intellectualism will be made quite clear after listening to these wankers yammer away hour after hour, day after day.There's real thinkers who call themselves workers, and there's those who loudly declaim themselves as thinkers.
Me?  I'm just another asshole with an opinion who's just not polished enough to get his own cable news show.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690078</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690034</id>
	<title>Re:Truly</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270060140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Truly an American icon. Or at least a Mexican one.</p></div></blockquote><p>I think he was Bolivian maybe.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Truly an American icon .
Or at least a Mexican one.I think he was Bolivian maybe .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Truly an American icon.
Or at least a Mexican one.I think he was Bolivian maybe.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31689974</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31695280</id>
	<title>Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves.</title>
	<author>TheSync</author>
	<datestamp>1270039380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>He showed that, by nature, inner city hispanic kids were just as capable at advanced studies as anyone else</i></p><p>We know that general intelligence (the kind measured by an IQ test) is real.  Some people have more than others.  And it is partially genetically determined.</p><p>However the important part is that you don't necessarily need an excessively high IQ to learn calculus.  Moreover, even in impoverished areas, there are likely some people with higher IQs than others.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He showed that , by nature , inner city hispanic kids were just as capable at advanced studies as anyone elseWe know that general intelligence ( the kind measured by an IQ test ) is real .
Some people have more than others .
And it is partially genetically determined.However the important part is that you do n't necessarily need an excessively high IQ to learn calculus .
Moreover , even in impoverished areas , there are likely some people with higher IQs than others .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He showed that, by nature, inner city hispanic kids were just as capable at advanced studies as anyone elseWe know that general intelligence (the kind measured by an IQ test) is real.
Some people have more than others.
And it is partially genetically determined.However the important part is that you don't necessarily need an excessively high IQ to learn calculus.
Moreover, even in impoverished areas, there are likely some people with higher IQs than others.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690174</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31693978</id>
	<title>Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves.</title>
	<author>w\_mute</author>
	<datestamp>1270032900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Teachers have it tough.  Some are threatened by parents because their 'good' kid is failing.  Why should not doing homework and failing tests keep the child from passing and moving to the next grade?  Until we stop self entitled BS (i.e. suing if kid fails, suing if kid gets removed from class, promoting failed students, etc), schools in the US will never go anywhere but downhill.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Teachers have it tough .
Some are threatened by parents because their 'good ' kid is failing .
Why should not doing homework and failing tests keep the child from passing and moving to the next grade ?
Until we stop self entitled BS ( i.e .
suing if kid fails , suing if kid gets removed from class , promoting failed students , etc ) , schools in the US will never go anywhere but downhill .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Teachers have it tough.
Some are threatened by parents because their 'good' kid is failing.
Why should not doing homework and failing tests keep the child from passing and moving to the next grade?
Until we stop self entitled BS (i.e.
suing if kid fails, suing if kid gets removed from class, promoting failed students, etc), schools in the US will never go anywhere but downhill.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690234</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31694794</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>Shadowlore</author>
	<datestamp>1270036980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I presume you were in favor of nuclear power? That would put you at odds with the vocal left-extremists. I suspect that will change in about a decade. It seems to take around that long for such ideas to bubble-over to one of the extreme sides.</p><p>The simplest voucher system is almost precisely what you stated. I'd just add "or home-school", though in a few years I'd bet the home-schooler contingent will reverse curse and shrink since they'll have affordable schools to choose from at their disposal. Any stipulations on it and you create an inherent inequality to the system. The remaining tricky bit is how do you classify a school? I'd say same as any other business.They file their business paperwork to do a specific thing. Creating a "school" that really exists to collect voucher money is fraud and should be prosecuted as such - nothing more, nothing less.</p><p>And I fully agree that getting the nutbags into their own schools is a definite bonus.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I presume you were in favor of nuclear power ?
That would put you at odds with the vocal left-extremists .
I suspect that will change in about a decade .
It seems to take around that long for such ideas to bubble-over to one of the extreme sides.The simplest voucher system is almost precisely what you stated .
I 'd just add " or home-school " , though in a few years I 'd bet the home-schooler contingent will reverse curse and shrink since they 'll have affordable schools to choose from at their disposal .
Any stipulations on it and you create an inherent inequality to the system .
The remaining tricky bit is how do you classify a school ?
I 'd say same as any other business.They file their business paperwork to do a specific thing .
Creating a " school " that really exists to collect voucher money is fraud and should be prosecuted as such - nothing more , nothing less.And I fully agree that getting the nutbags into their own schools is a definite bonus .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I presume you were in favor of nuclear power?
That would put you at odds with the vocal left-extremists.
I suspect that will change in about a decade.
It seems to take around that long for such ideas to bubble-over to one of the extreme sides.The simplest voucher system is almost precisely what you stated.
I'd just add "or home-school", though in a few years I'd bet the home-schooler contingent will reverse curse and shrink since they'll have affordable schools to choose from at their disposal.
Any stipulations on it and you create an inherent inequality to the system.
The remaining tricky bit is how do you classify a school?
I'd say same as any other business.They file their business paperwork to do a specific thing.
Creating a "school" that really exists to collect voucher money is fraud and should be prosecuted as such - nothing more, nothing less.And I fully agree that getting the nutbags into their own schools is a definite bonus.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31693954</id>
	<title>Re:Truly</title>
	<author>yurtinus</author>
	<datestamp>1270032780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>and he was played by Adama in the movie.</p></div><p>This is one of my lifelong goals as well!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>and he was played by Adama in the movie.This is one of my lifelong goals as well !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and he was played by Adama in the movie.This is one of my lifelong goals as well!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690856</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690062</id>
	<title>Yeah haters, this *is* News for Nerds</title>
	<author>elrous0</author>
	<datestamp>1270060200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>He was played in a movie by the guy from Blade Runner *and* Battlestar Galactica.</htmltext>
<tokenext>He was played in a movie by the guy from Blade Runner * and * Battlestar Galactica .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He was played in a movie by the guy from Blade Runner *and* Battlestar Galactica.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690296</id>
	<title>Re:Truly</title>
	<author>DesScorp</author>
	<datestamp>1270061220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Truly an American icon.  Or at least a Mexican one.</p></div><p>Escalante was from Bolivia.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Truly an American icon .
Or at least a Mexican one.Escalante was from Bolivia .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Truly an American icon.
Or at least a Mexican one.Escalante was from Bolivia.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31689974</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690204</id>
	<title>American Education</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270060800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Of course they got rid of him!  How dare the poorer class schools be able to progress!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course they got rid of him !
How dare the poorer class schools be able to progress !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course they got rid of him!
How dare the poorer class schools be able to progress!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690240</id>
	<title>Re:Rest in peace.</title>
	<author>negRo\_slim</author>
	<datestamp>1270060920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I'm going to cry. Really.
I had the blessing to meet Mr. Escalante just a few months ago, before he was diagnosed with cancer. What a wonderful, wonderful man.</p><p>They should name schools after people like him.</p></div><p>One of my math teachers from high school was a huge fan of the movie and Mr. Escalante's work. So much that he even inspired me with his joy of teaching... to win the regional math competition; as my reward was a free pass to sleep through his class the rest of the semester.
<br> <br>
Needless to say I caught up on a lot of sleep during those days...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm going to cry .
Really . I had the blessing to meet Mr. Escalante just a few months ago , before he was diagnosed with cancer .
What a wonderful , wonderful man.They should name schools after people like him.One of my math teachers from high school was a huge fan of the movie and Mr. Escalante 's work .
So much that he even inspired me with his joy of teaching... to win the regional math competition ; as my reward was a free pass to sleep through his class the rest of the semester .
Needless to say I caught up on a lot of sleep during those days.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm going to cry.
Really.
I had the blessing to meet Mr. Escalante just a few months ago, before he was diagnosed with cancer.
What a wonderful, wonderful man.They should name schools after people like him.One of my math teachers from high school was a huge fan of the movie and Mr. Escalante's work.
So much that he even inspired me with his joy of teaching... to win the regional math competition; as my reward was a free pass to sleep through his class the rest of the semester.
Needless to say I caught up on a lot of sleep during those days...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31689990</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691524</id>
	<title>Re:Shining Example</title>
	<author>frosty\_tsm</author>
	<datestamp>1270066080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Would you mind showing the source for that data? Just curious</p></div><p>I second that.  I remember a statistic that CA's students were ranked 3rd from last (we also almost last in education spending), but IQ is different.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Would you mind showing the source for that data ?
Just curiousI second that .
I remember a statistic that CA 's students were ranked 3rd from last ( we also almost last in education spending ) , but IQ is different .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Would you mind showing the source for that data?
Just curiousI second that.
I remember a statistic that CA's students were ranked 3rd from last (we also almost last in education spending), but IQ is different.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690492</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691242</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>phantomfive</author>
	<datestamp>1270064880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral</p> </div><p>It's not like these schools are so great, some of them in the inner city have pretty much hit the bottom of the downward spiral, they really can't get much worse.   The kids are already forced into those kinds of schools, with the system as it is now they have no real option to go somewhere else.   At least with vouchers they will have the choice to attend a different school if they want to.  Besides, if a school is really that bad, it should be shut down, and something else put in its place.  <br> <br>
I'll tell you the real reason Democrats are against vouchers, and to find out, you have to <a href="http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000083" title="opensecrets.org">follow the money</a> [opensecrets.org].  Teachers unions are big donors to democrats, and teachers unions are opposed to voucher systems.  The problem with teachers unions is that they are mostly interested in making life as good as possible for the teachers (as a union should), but they shouldn't be driving policy because school policy should be driven by what is best for the students.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral It 's not like these schools are so great , some of them in the inner city have pretty much hit the bottom of the downward spiral , they really ca n't get much worse .
The kids are already forced into those kinds of schools , with the system as it is now they have no real option to go somewhere else .
At least with vouchers they will have the choice to attend a different school if they want to .
Besides , if a school is really that bad , it should be shut down , and something else put in its place .
I 'll tell you the real reason Democrats are against vouchers , and to find out , you have to follow the money [ opensecrets.org ] .
Teachers unions are big donors to democrats , and teachers unions are opposed to voucher systems .
The problem with teachers unions is that they are mostly interested in making life as good as possible for the teachers ( as a union should ) , but they should n't be driving policy because school policy should be driven by what is best for the students .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral It's not like these schools are so great, some of them in the inner city have pretty much hit the bottom of the downward spiral, they really can't get much worse.
The kids are already forced into those kinds of schools, with the system as it is now they have no real option to go somewhere else.
At least with vouchers they will have the choice to attend a different school if they want to.
Besides, if a school is really that bad, it should be shut down, and something else put in its place.
I'll tell you the real reason Democrats are against vouchers, and to find out, you have to follow the money [opensecrets.org].
Teachers unions are big donors to democrats, and teachers unions are opposed to voucher systems.
The problem with teachers unions is that they are mostly interested in making life as good as possible for the teachers (as a union should), but they shouldn't be driving policy because school policy should be driven by what is best for the students.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690468</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31693710</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270031460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you knew anything about the Detroit school system you would also know that 'falling into worse decay' is an impossibility, leastwise without extreme measures like, say, the introduction of cannibalism.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you knew anything about the Detroit school system you would also know that 'falling into worse decay ' is an impossibility , leastwise without extreme measures like , say , the introduction of cannibalism .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you knew anything about the Detroit school system you would also know that 'falling into worse decay' is an impossibility, leastwise without extreme measures like, say, the introduction of cannibalism.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690468</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691500</id>
	<title>Re:Truly</title>
	<author>hrimhari</author>
	<datestamp>1270065960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Or at least a Mexican one.</p></div><p>Yeah, especially in Buenos Aires.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Or at least a Mexican one.Yeah , especially in Buenos Aires .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or at least a Mexican one.Yeah, especially in Buenos Aires.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31689974</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690230</id>
	<title>Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves.</title>
	<author>TheLink</author>
	<datestamp>1270060860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Escalante's example is nearly opposite of what you're proposing. It's about someone caring enough about OTHERs and improving their situation dramatically.<br><br>You on the other hand are barking up the "people should just help themselves" tree.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Escalante 's example is nearly opposite of what you 're proposing .
It 's about someone caring enough about OTHERs and improving their situation dramatically.You on the other hand are barking up the " people should just help themselves " tree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Escalante's example is nearly opposite of what you're proposing.
It's about someone caring enough about OTHERs and improving their situation dramatically.You on the other hand are barking up the "people should just help themselves" tree.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690014</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690380</id>
	<title>Re:Shining Example</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270061640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Did you know that Californians, on average, have the 3rd lowest IQ in the country?  Only Louisiana and Mississippi have lower average IQs than California.</p><p>When I read stories like this one about post-Escalante Garfield, I'm not surprised.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Did you know that Californians , on average , have the 3rd lowest IQ in the country ?
Only Louisiana and Mississippi have lower average IQs than California.When I read stories like this one about post-Escalante Garfield , I 'm not surprised .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Did you know that Californians, on average, have the 3rd lowest IQ in the country?
Only Louisiana and Mississippi have lower average IQs than California.When I read stories like this one about post-Escalante Garfield, I'm not surprised.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690142</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31699632</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270130640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But "public schools" = the system, not the teachers.  Teachers are human beings and always want to teach their students, across time and space.  It's not the teachers, but the system, that allows the petty squabbles to overrule merit and turns out automata.</p><p>And the system really *is* from the Industrial Revolution, and still works as intended.  It's easy to fit the (almost) universally good intensions of teachers into the system, because the line between adequate classroom discipline and soul-crushing, arbitrary institutionalism is finer than it sounds.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But " public schools " = the system , not the teachers .
Teachers are human beings and always want to teach their students , across time and space .
It 's not the teachers , but the system , that allows the petty squabbles to overrule merit and turns out automata.And the system really * is * from the Industrial Revolution , and still works as intended .
It 's easy to fit the ( almost ) universally good intensions of teachers into the system , because the line between adequate classroom discipline and soul-crushing , arbitrary institutionalism is finer than it sounds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But "public schools" = the system, not the teachers.
Teachers are human beings and always want to teach their students, across time and space.
It's not the teachers, but the system, that allows the petty squabbles to overrule merit and turns out automata.And the system really *is* from the Industrial Revolution, and still works as intended.
It's easy to fit the (almost) universally good intensions of teachers into the system, because the line between adequate classroom discipline and soul-crushing, arbitrary institutionalism is finer than it sounds.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690838</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31695384</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>RyuuzakiTetsuya</author>
	<datestamp>1270039980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Because vouchers aren't any guarantee of success either.</p><p>The private sector is just as good, if not better, than screwing up than the public sector is.  It's not a solution, and it's going to cause problems on it's own.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because vouchers are n't any guarantee of success either.The private sector is just as good , if not better , than screwing up than the public sector is .
It 's not a solution , and it 's going to cause problems on it 's own .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because vouchers aren't any guarantee of success either.The private sector is just as good, if not better, than screwing up than the public sector is.
It's not a solution, and it's going to cause problems on it's own.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692858</id>
	<title>Re:Truly</title>
	<author>ArcherB</author>
	<datestamp>1270027740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> <a href="http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward\_James\_Olmos" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward\_James\_Olmos</a> [wikipedia.org]</p><p>If people were to make that mistake, it may be due to the actor who portrayed him, who was (and might still be) Mexican.</p></div><p>I thought Olmos was Tauren.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward \ _James \ _Olmos [ wikipedia.org ] If people were to make that mistake , it may be due to the actor who portrayed him , who was ( and might still be ) Mexican.I thought Olmos was Tauren .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward\_James\_Olmos [wikipedia.org]If people were to make that mistake, it may be due to the actor who portrayed him, who was (and might still be) Mexican.I thought Olmos was Tauren.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690424</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690492</id>
	<title>Re:Shining Example</title>
	<author>Rebelgecko</author>
	<datestamp>1270062060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Would you mind showing the source for that data? Just curious</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Would you mind showing the source for that data ?
Just curious</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Would you mind showing the source for that data?
Just curious</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690380</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690730</id>
	<title>Re:Truly</title>
	<author>AP31R0N</author>
	<datestamp>1270062900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Balderdash! Everything south of Texas is Mexico.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Balderdash !
Everything south of Texas is Mexico .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Balderdash!
Everything south of Texas is Mexico.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690152</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31693998</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>Grishnakh</author>
	<datestamp>1270032960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Most large monopolies only get that way through government coercion, or at the very least cooperation.</i></p><p>Not true.  In a completely free market, monopolies and oligopolies would still naturally arise over time; successful companies tend to grow larger, and then their success become self-perpetuating: as they get bigger, they can exploit economies of scale than smaller competitors cannot, and also as they grow larger, the less damage any bad decision will cause, as they have more inertia.</p><p>This is why it's government's job to serve as a check against the power of corporations, and make sure they can't grow large enough to have too much influence over the government, and also to ensure that new competitors are able to compete fairly against them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most large monopolies only get that way through government coercion , or at the very least cooperation.Not true .
In a completely free market , monopolies and oligopolies would still naturally arise over time ; successful companies tend to grow larger , and then their success become self-perpetuating : as they get bigger , they can exploit economies of scale than smaller competitors can not , and also as they grow larger , the less damage any bad decision will cause , as they have more inertia.This is why it 's government 's job to serve as a check against the power of corporations , and make sure they ca n't grow large enough to have too much influence over the government , and also to ensure that new competitors are able to compete fairly against them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most large monopolies only get that way through government coercion, or at the very least cooperation.Not true.
In a completely free market, monopolies and oligopolies would still naturally arise over time; successful companies tend to grow larger, and then their success become self-perpetuating: as they get bigger, they can exploit economies of scale than smaller competitors cannot, and also as they grow larger, the less damage any bad decision will cause, as they have more inertia.This is why it's government's job to serve as a check against the power of corporations, and make sure they can't grow large enough to have too much influence over the government, and also to ensure that new competitors are able to compete fairly against them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31695350</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>Chris Burke</author>
	<datestamp>1270039800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>He's still calling the shots, is he? Plutocrats are bad enough, but zombie plutocrats is just going too far.</i></p><p>But undead Plutocrats are the only kind that can survive in the vacuum of space long enough to get to earth!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He 's still calling the shots , is he ?
Plutocrats are bad enough , but zombie plutocrats is just going too far.But undead Plutocrats are the only kind that can survive in the vacuum of space long enough to get to earth !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He's still calling the shots, is he?
Plutocrats are bad enough, but zombie plutocrats is just going too far.But undead Plutocrats are the only kind that can survive in the vacuum of space long enough to get to earth!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690486</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690426</id>
	<title>Exactly</title>
	<author>DesScorp</author>
	<datestamp>1270061820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't quite understand why you're being modded troll when critics of the system from both right and left agree that public schools aren't so much focused on education as they are on producing "useful people"... to employers, government, etc. As much as conservative groups support things like charter schools, minority families... traditionally loyal Democratic voters... support them even more, because despite ever increasing dollars on public schools, the public system isn't getting it done with their kids. Washington D.C. schools spend more per pupil than just about anywhere else, and yet have among the worst scores and graduation rates.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't quite understand why you 're being modded troll when critics of the system from both right and left agree that public schools are n't so much focused on education as they are on producing " useful people " ... to employers , government , etc .
As much as conservative groups support things like charter schools , minority families... traditionally loyal Democratic voters... support them even more , because despite ever increasing dollars on public schools , the public system is n't getting it done with their kids .
Washington D.C. schools spend more per pupil than just about anywhere else , and yet have among the worst scores and graduation rates .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't quite understand why you're being modded troll when critics of the system from both right and left agree that public schools aren't so much focused on education as they are on producing "useful people"... to employers, government, etc.
As much as conservative groups support things like charter schools, minority families... traditionally loyal Democratic voters... support them even more, because despite ever increasing dollars on public schools, the public system isn't getting it done with their kids.
Washington D.C. schools spend more per pupil than just about anywhere else, and yet have among the worst scores and graduation rates.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690078</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690280</id>
	<title>Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>5pp000</author>
	<datestamp>1270061160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>From TFA:<blockquote><div><p>Gradillas has an explanation for the decline of A.P. calculus at Garfield: Escalante and Villavicencio were not allowed to run the program they had created on their own terms. In his phrase, the teachers no longer "owned" their program. He's speaking metaphorically, but there's something to be said for taking him literally.

</p><p>In the real world, those who provide a service can usually find a way to get it to those who want it, even if their current employer disapproves. If someone feels that he can build a better mousetrap than his employer wants to make, he can find a way to make it, market it, and perhaps put his former boss out of business. Public school teachers lack that option.

</p><p>There are very few ways to compete for education dollars without being part of the government school system. If that system is inflexible, sooner or later even excellent programs will run into obstacles.</p></div></blockquote><p>

I've never understood why the left, which has supported the idea of a single-payer health care system, can't get its head around vouchers, which amount to a single-payer education system.  No, a voucher system isn't perfect; yes, there will be abuses.  But look at the ongoing train wreck of a system we have now!

</p><p>In a voucher system, Jaime Escalante would have been massively successful, probably at the top of an organization teaching thousands of students.  So what if some fundamentalists use their vouchers to send their kids to religious schools?  Vouchers would finally give us a way to end the culture of mediocrity that has such a death grip on our schools now.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>From TFA : Gradillas has an explanation for the decline of A.P .
calculus at Garfield : Escalante and Villavicencio were not allowed to run the program they had created on their own terms .
In his phrase , the teachers no longer " owned " their program .
He 's speaking metaphorically , but there 's something to be said for taking him literally .
In the real world , those who provide a service can usually find a way to get it to those who want it , even if their current employer disapproves .
If someone feels that he can build a better mousetrap than his employer wants to make , he can find a way to make it , market it , and perhaps put his former boss out of business .
Public school teachers lack that option .
There are very few ways to compete for education dollars without being part of the government school system .
If that system is inflexible , sooner or later even excellent programs will run into obstacles .
I 've never understood why the left , which has supported the idea of a single-payer health care system , ca n't get its head around vouchers , which amount to a single-payer education system .
No , a voucher system is n't perfect ; yes , there will be abuses .
But look at the ongoing train wreck of a system we have now !
In a voucher system , Jaime Escalante would have been massively successful , probably at the top of an organization teaching thousands of students .
So what if some fundamentalists use their vouchers to send their kids to religious schools ?
Vouchers would finally give us a way to end the culture of mediocrity that has such a death grip on our schools now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From TFA:Gradillas has an explanation for the decline of A.P.
calculus at Garfield: Escalante and Villavicencio were not allowed to run the program they had created on their own terms.
In his phrase, the teachers no longer "owned" their program.
He's speaking metaphorically, but there's something to be said for taking him literally.
In the real world, those who provide a service can usually find a way to get it to those who want it, even if their current employer disapproves.
If someone feels that he can build a better mousetrap than his employer wants to make, he can find a way to make it, market it, and perhaps put his former boss out of business.
Public school teachers lack that option.
There are very few ways to compete for education dollars without being part of the government school system.
If that system is inflexible, sooner or later even excellent programs will run into obstacles.
I've never understood why the left, which has supported the idea of a single-payer health care system, can't get its head around vouchers, which amount to a single-payer education system.
No, a voucher system isn't perfect; yes, there will be abuses.
But look at the ongoing train wreck of a system we have now!
In a voucher system, Jaime Escalante would have been massively successful, probably at the top of an organization teaching thousands of students.
So what if some fundamentalists use their vouchers to send their kids to religious schools?
Vouchers would finally give us a way to end the culture of mediocrity that has such a death grip on our schools now.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31689974</id>
	<title>Truly</title>
	<author>Bastard of Subhumani</author>
	<datestamp>1270059960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Truly an American icon.  Or at least a Mexican one.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Truly an American icon .
Or at least a Mexican one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Truly an American icon.
Or at least a Mexican one.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690842</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>rsborg</author>
	<datestamp>1270063320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> <b>As a leftist extremist</b>...Something that would actually reduce the cost of expensive private schools for those who can't afford it would be great.</p></div></blockquote><p>Explain to me how this is a "leftist extremist" point of view. Something about what you claim to be and what you support is not jiving. The only "extreme" point of view you're supporting here is that you believe private schools should be subsidized by the government (without all the burdensome "regulations" and "mandated enrollment" that public schools are stuck with).  So as a taxpayer I get to pay for an institution that could deny my kid attendance arbitrarily?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As a leftist extremist...Something that would actually reduce the cost of expensive private schools for those who ca n't afford it would be great.Explain to me how this is a " leftist extremist " point of view .
Something about what you claim to be and what you support is not jiving .
The only " extreme " point of view you 're supporting here is that you believe private schools should be subsidized by the government ( without all the burdensome " regulations " and " mandated enrollment " that public schools are stuck with ) .
So as a taxpayer I get to pay for an institution that could deny my kid attendance arbitrarily ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext> As a leftist extremist...Something that would actually reduce the cost of expensive private schools for those who can't afford it would be great.Explain to me how this is a "leftist extremist" point of view.
Something about what you claim to be and what you support is not jiving.
The only "extreme" point of view you're supporting here is that you believe private schools should be subsidized by the government (without all the burdensome "regulations" and "mandated enrollment" that public schools are stuck with).
So as a taxpayer I get to pay for an institution that could deny my kid attendance arbitrarily?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690402</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>pluther</author>
	<datestamp>1270061700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a leftist extremist, I've never been able to understand it either.</p><p>When I was volunteering at the Obama campaign office, this was probably my second biggest argument with most of my fellow workers, after nuclear power.</p><p>There have been some very bad voucher schemes proposed, which amount to nothing more than yet another tax break for wealthy people while shifting the burden to the poor.</p><p>But there have also been some good voucher schemes proposed.  Something that would let parents send their children to any school, public or private, that they wanted, would be awesome.  Something that would actually reduce the cost of expensive private schools for those who can't afford it would be great.</p><p>Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they can't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a leftist extremist , I 've never been able to understand it either.When I was volunteering at the Obama campaign office , this was probably my second biggest argument with most of my fellow workers , after nuclear power.There have been some very bad voucher schemes proposed , which amount to nothing more than yet another tax break for wealthy people while shifting the burden to the poor.But there have also been some good voucher schemes proposed .
Something that would let parents send their children to any school , public or private , that they wanted , would be awesome .
Something that would actually reduce the cost of expensive private schools for those who ca n't afford it would be great.Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they ca n't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus , as far as I 'm concerned .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a leftist extremist, I've never been able to understand it either.When I was volunteering at the Obama campaign office, this was probably my second biggest argument with most of my fellow workers, after nuclear power.There have been some very bad voucher schemes proposed, which amount to nothing more than yet another tax break for wealthy people while shifting the burden to the poor.But there have also been some good voucher schemes proposed.
Something that would let parents send their children to any school, public or private, that they wanted, would be awesome.
Something that would actually reduce the cost of expensive private schools for those who can't afford it would be great.Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they can't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690856</id>
	<title>Re:Truly</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270063380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Maybe a nerd icon too? He made learning cool, and he was played by Adama in the movie.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe a nerd icon too ?
He made learning cool , and he was played by Adama in the movie .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe a nerd icon too?
He made learning cool, and he was played by Adama in the movie.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31689974</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31693470</id>
	<title>Re:Rest in peace.</title>
	<author>Grishnakh</author>
	<datestamp>1270030200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Set the bar high and the kids will reach for it, set the bar low and kids will nap.</i></p><p>Why would we want to set the bar high?  The whole point of public school is to produce indoctrinated Americans who will be good workers and not question things.  No one needs to know Calculus to make coffee at Starbuck's or work at the mall.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Set the bar high and the kids will reach for it , set the bar low and kids will nap.Why would we want to set the bar high ?
The whole point of public school is to produce indoctrinated Americans who will be good workers and not question things .
No one needs to know Calculus to make coffee at Starbuck 's or work at the mall .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Set the bar high and the kids will reach for it, set the bar low and kids will nap.Why would we want to set the bar high?
The whole point of public school is to produce indoctrinated Americans who will be good workers and not question things.
No one needs to know Calculus to make coffee at Starbuck's or work at the mall.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690454</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691268</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>SnarfQuest</author>
	<datestamp>1270065000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's also about what the schools really want to push:</p><p>If Dick has 4 apples, and Jane has 7 apples, should the factories, owned by greedy evil cigar smoking individuals, spewing out tons of cancer causing toxic greenhouse gases every day, be shut down?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's also about what the schools really want to push : If Dick has 4 apples , and Jane has 7 apples , should the factories , owned by greedy evil cigar smoking individuals , spewing out tons of cancer causing toxic greenhouse gases every day , be shut down ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's also about what the schools really want to push:If Dick has 4 apples, and Jane has 7 apples, should the factories, owned by greedy evil cigar smoking individuals, spewing out tons of cancer causing toxic greenhouse gases every day, be shut down?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690078</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692866</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>bussdriver</author>
	<datestamp>1270027740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Vouchers can not solve the societal and human problems that manifest in any school system.</p><p>A diverse nation needs to integrate the schools. After the blacks integrated there was a rise in private schools. duh.</p><p>We have a rise in racism but we ALSO have a huge push back in the culture wars - race used to to be a big issue there but its diminished in its role. The conflation of the two still continues to some degree so they get confused with each other.</p><p>One of the ways the culture war manifests itself is private schooling - can't let our children be influenced by THOSE PEOPLE! Each side in the war wants to alienate their children from the other side - and vouchers are way to doing public funding for private schooling while CHARTER SCHOOLS are an attempt to create public private schools in many cases.  Sometimes they work out; over all the charter schools cost more and deliver no better and often do worse than the district model. The main reason for the push for them is the culture war; NOT accountability and better performance because they on a whole have not be delivering any improvements other than increased spending.</p><p>I went to inner city schools, suburban all white schools, and violent nun private school. I have education experts in the family.  Just going to school does not make one an expert in education anymore than having a tooth pulled makes you a dentist. The school for your child and the teachers for your child quite likely are not what you think they should be; same goes for their peers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Vouchers can not solve the societal and human problems that manifest in any school system.A diverse nation needs to integrate the schools .
After the blacks integrated there was a rise in private schools .
duh.We have a rise in racism but we ALSO have a huge push back in the culture wars - race used to to be a big issue there but its diminished in its role .
The conflation of the two still continues to some degree so they get confused with each other.One of the ways the culture war manifests itself is private schooling - ca n't let our children be influenced by THOSE PEOPLE !
Each side in the war wants to alienate their children from the other side - and vouchers are way to doing public funding for private schooling while CHARTER SCHOOLS are an attempt to create public private schools in many cases .
Sometimes they work out ; over all the charter schools cost more and deliver no better and often do worse than the district model .
The main reason for the push for them is the culture war ; NOT accountability and better performance because they on a whole have not be delivering any improvements other than increased spending.I went to inner city schools , suburban all white schools , and violent nun private school .
I have education experts in the family .
Just going to school does not make one an expert in education anymore than having a tooth pulled makes you a dentist .
The school for your child and the teachers for your child quite likely are not what you think they should be ; same goes for their peers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Vouchers can not solve the societal and human problems that manifest in any school system.A diverse nation needs to integrate the schools.
After the blacks integrated there was a rise in private schools.
duh.We have a rise in racism but we ALSO have a huge push back in the culture wars - race used to to be a big issue there but its diminished in its role.
The conflation of the two still continues to some degree so they get confused with each other.One of the ways the culture war manifests itself is private schooling - can't let our children be influenced by THOSE PEOPLE!
Each side in the war wants to alienate their children from the other side - and vouchers are way to doing public funding for private schooling while CHARTER SCHOOLS are an attempt to create public private schools in many cases.
Sometimes they work out; over all the charter schools cost more and deliver no better and often do worse than the district model.
The main reason for the push for them is the culture war; NOT accountability and better performance because they on a whole have not be delivering any improvements other than increased spending.I went to inner city schools, suburban all white schools, and violent nun private school.
I have education experts in the family.
Just going to school does not make one an expert in education anymore than having a tooth pulled makes you a dentist.
The school for your child and the teachers for your child quite likely are not what you think they should be; same goes for their peers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690478</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691572</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>HeckRuler</author>
	<datestamp>1270066200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>uhhhhhh wouldn't you, as an leftist extreamist not want to put kids through an inbred fundamentalist indoctrination? Wouldn't you say that's where, you know, "the right" comes from? <br>
I mean, the traditional battle-lines usually involve "the left" putting kids through public education so everyone has a fair shot and indoctrinating kids on diversity.<br>
Meanwhile "the right" put kids through private segregated schools indoctrinating them to fundamentalist beliefs. And the wealthy ones can afford the prestigious schools where the children are destined for greatness.<br> <br>

Keep to the script! You're confusing the audience!</htmltext>
<tokenext>uhhhhhh would n't you , as an leftist extreamist not want to put kids through an inbred fundamentalist indoctrination ?
Would n't you say that 's where , you know , " the right " comes from ?
I mean , the traditional battle-lines usually involve " the left " putting kids through public education so everyone has a fair shot and indoctrinating kids on diversity .
Meanwhile " the right " put kids through private segregated schools indoctrinating them to fundamentalist beliefs .
And the wealthy ones can afford the prestigious schools where the children are destined for greatness .
Keep to the script !
You 're confusing the audience !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>uhhhhhh wouldn't you, as an leftist extreamist not want to put kids through an inbred fundamentalist indoctrination?
Wouldn't you say that's where, you know, "the right" comes from?
I mean, the traditional battle-lines usually involve "the left" putting kids through public education so everyone has a fair shot and indoctrinating kids on diversity.
Meanwhile "the right" put kids through private segregated schools indoctrinating them to fundamentalist beliefs.
And the wealthy ones can afford the prestigious schools where the children are destined for greatness.
Keep to the script!
You're confusing the audience!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31693044</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah haters, this *is* News for Nerds</title>
	<author>Chris Burke</author>
	<datestamp>1270028460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh great.  You just made the last line of Blade Runner* run through my head while thinking about Escalante's passing and my eyes teared up.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:(</p><p>* Director's cut of course, you theatrical release heathens.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh great .
You just made the last line of Blade Runner * run through my head while thinking about Escalante 's passing and my eyes teared up .
: ( * Director 's cut of course , you theatrical release heathens .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh great.
You just made the last line of Blade Runner* run through my head while thinking about Escalante's passing and my eyes teared up.
:(* Director's cut of course, you theatrical release heathens.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690062</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690826</id>
	<title>Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves.</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1270063260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>You can't force people to learn. Escalante's gift was his power to inspire others to improve their own education. He didn't do the work for them -- he just convinced them that he believed they could do it, and that it was worthwhile. Let's not kid ourselves; these kids worked their asses off to pass the Calculus AP exam. They couldn't have been so successful if it wasn't the most important thing in their lives at that time. The ability to make people believe in a better future through hard work -- that seems to be a element that is sadly lacking in the current Republican talking points.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You ca n't force people to learn .
Escalante 's gift was his power to inspire others to improve their own education .
He did n't do the work for them -- he just convinced them that he believed they could do it , and that it was worthwhile .
Let 's not kid ourselves ; these kids worked their asses off to pass the Calculus AP exam .
They could n't have been so successful if it was n't the most important thing in their lives at that time .
The ability to make people believe in a better future through hard work -- that seems to be a element that is sadly lacking in the current Republican talking points .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can't force people to learn.
Escalante's gift was his power to inspire others to improve their own education.
He didn't do the work for them -- he just convinced them that he believed they could do it, and that it was worthwhile.
Let's not kid ourselves; these kids worked their asses off to pass the Calculus AP exam.
They couldn't have been so successful if it wasn't the most important thing in their lives at that time.
The ability to make people believe in a better future through hard work -- that seems to be a element that is sadly lacking in the current Republican talking points.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690230</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692598</id>
	<title>Stupid measurements are the problem</title>
	<author>bussdriver</author>
	<datestamp>1270026840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>CA has tons of illegals and immigrants in the system and I can tell you from where I am (midwest) those people often test lower and its not because they have a low IQ it is the tests themselves that fail to measure them equally against the locals.</p><p>On top of that big problem, you have all the issues of measuring IQ and how that is impossible...</p><p>Its more telling in Louisiana and Mississippi because they don't have those excuses and some of those illiterate teacher stories come from there... but again its just an IQ test and doesn't mean a whole lot.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>CA has tons of illegals and immigrants in the system and I can tell you from where I am ( midwest ) those people often test lower and its not because they have a low IQ it is the tests themselves that fail to measure them equally against the locals.On top of that big problem , you have all the issues of measuring IQ and how that is impossible...Its more telling in Louisiana and Mississippi because they do n't have those excuses and some of those illiterate teacher stories come from there... but again its just an IQ test and does n't mean a whole lot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>CA has tons of illegals and immigrants in the system and I can tell you from where I am (midwest) those people often test lower and its not because they have a low IQ it is the tests themselves that fail to measure them equally against the locals.On top of that big problem, you have all the issues of measuring IQ and how that is impossible...Its more telling in Louisiana and Mississippi because they don't have those excuses and some of those illiterate teacher stories come from there... but again its just an IQ test and doesn't mean a whole lot.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690380</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690468</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>sean\_nestor</author>
	<datestamp>1270061940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I've never understood why the left, which has supported the idea of a single-payer health care system, can't get its head around vouchers, which amount to a single-payer education system.  No, a voucher system isn't perfect; yes, there will be abuses.  But look at the ongoing train wreck of a system we have now!

</p><p>In a voucher system, Jaime Escalante would have been massively successful, probably at the top of an organization teaching thousands of students.  So what if some fundamentalists use their vouchers to send their kids to religious schools?  Vouchers would finally give us a way to end the culture of mediocrity that has such a death grip on our schools now.</p></div><p>Chiefly because exposing school systems to a competitive market implicitly accepts that some schools will fall into even worse decay that they currently are. Poor schools become poorer, with little funding to hire better teachers or acquire better books. </p><p>As schools are not objects which can house an infinite number of students, some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral - schools that are not only sub-par, but lacking funding and interaction with a diverse body of students, since all the brightest have made it into the "nice" schools.</p><p>When you consider that some students are going to be shafted big time by this arrangement, you may see why some (not just on the left) don't like the voucher system. Education after 18 is no longer compulsory, so good luck compensating for those all-important developmental years of education.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've never understood why the left , which has supported the idea of a single-payer health care system , ca n't get its head around vouchers , which amount to a single-payer education system .
No , a voucher system is n't perfect ; yes , there will be abuses .
But look at the ongoing train wreck of a system we have now !
In a voucher system , Jaime Escalante would have been massively successful , probably at the top of an organization teaching thousands of students .
So what if some fundamentalists use their vouchers to send their kids to religious schools ?
Vouchers would finally give us a way to end the culture of mediocrity that has such a death grip on our schools now.Chiefly because exposing school systems to a competitive market implicitly accepts that some schools will fall into even worse decay that they currently are .
Poor schools become poorer , with little funding to hire better teachers or acquire better books .
As schools are not objects which can house an infinite number of students , some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral - schools that are not only sub-par , but lacking funding and interaction with a diverse body of students , since all the brightest have made it into the " nice " schools.When you consider that some students are going to be shafted big time by this arrangement , you may see why some ( not just on the left ) do n't like the voucher system .
Education after 18 is no longer compulsory , so good luck compensating for those all-important developmental years of education .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've never understood why the left, which has supported the idea of a single-payer health care system, can't get its head around vouchers, which amount to a single-payer education system.
No, a voucher system isn't perfect; yes, there will be abuses.
But look at the ongoing train wreck of a system we have now!
In a voucher system, Jaime Escalante would have been massively successful, probably at the top of an organization teaching thousands of students.
So what if some fundamentalists use their vouchers to send their kids to religious schools?
Vouchers would finally give us a way to end the culture of mediocrity that has such a death grip on our schools now.Chiefly because exposing school systems to a competitive market implicitly accepts that some schools will fall into even worse decay that they currently are.
Poor schools become poorer, with little funding to hire better teachers or acquire better books.
As schools are not objects which can house an infinite number of students, some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral - schools that are not only sub-par, but lacking funding and interaction with a diverse body of students, since all the brightest have made it into the "nice" schools.When you consider that some students are going to be shafted big time by this arrangement, you may see why some (not just on the left) don't like the voucher system.
Education after 18 is no longer compulsory, so good luck compensating for those all-important developmental years of education.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31693924</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270032600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>From the reason article: <i>"....had the janitor who objected to Escalante's early-bird ways been more influential, America's greatest math teacher might just now be retiring from Unisys."</i></p><p>When a <i>janitor</i> determines the fate of a nation's top math education program, you know the system is fucked.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>From the reason article : " ....had the janitor who objected to Escalante 's early-bird ways been more influential , America 's greatest math teacher might just now be retiring from Unisys .
" When a janitor determines the fate of a nation 's top math education program , you know the system is fucked .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From the reason article: "....had the janitor who objected to Escalante's early-bird ways been more influential, America's greatest math teacher might just now be retiring from Unisys.
"When a janitor determines the fate of a nation's top math education program, you know the system is fucked.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690078</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31695792</id>
	<title>Re:Going beyond vouchers</title>
	<author>yurtinus</author>
	<datestamp>1270042380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Can't get to your site from work, so I'll work from your summary... I think you're operating under a fallacy that parents are in general better suited to educate their kids than trained teachers. It may work fine for elementary education, but very few individuals are suited to teach high school level courses. Education is simply not that highly regarded in most communities that parents taking this income would do more than the bare minimum and keep the change. I'm also finding it difficult to follow your conclusion that with widespread homeschooling, the schools would somehow become big hubs of learning. Instead I see local schools decline with the drop in student enrollment and subsequent operating funds.
<br> <br>
As for basic income... I don't see how that can be implemented without eventually becoming a system where the producers of society don't end up carrying the weight of those that don't.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ca n't get to your site from work , so I 'll work from your summary... I think you 're operating under a fallacy that parents are in general better suited to educate their kids than trained teachers .
It may work fine for elementary education , but very few individuals are suited to teach high school level courses .
Education is simply not that highly regarded in most communities that parents taking this income would do more than the bare minimum and keep the change .
I 'm also finding it difficult to follow your conclusion that with widespread homeschooling , the schools would somehow become big hubs of learning .
Instead I see local schools decline with the drop in student enrollment and subsequent operating funds .
As for basic income... I do n't see how that can be implemented without eventually becoming a system where the producers of society do n't end up carrying the weight of those that do n't .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can't get to your site from work, so I'll work from your summary... I think you're operating under a fallacy that parents are in general better suited to educate their kids than trained teachers.
It may work fine for elementary education, but very few individuals are suited to teach high school level courses.
Education is simply not that highly regarded in most communities that parents taking this income would do more than the bare minimum and keep the change.
I'm also finding it difficult to follow your conclusion that with widespread homeschooling, the schools would somehow become big hubs of learning.
Instead I see local schools decline with the drop in student enrollment and subsequent operating funds.
As for basic income... I don't see how that can be implemented without eventually becoming a system where the producers of society don't end up carrying the weight of those that don't.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691258</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691338</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>PolygamousRanchKid </author>
	<datestamp>1270065300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> <a href="http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/" title="deliberate...ngdown.com">"I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers."</a> [deliberate...ngdown.com] - John D. Rockefeller</p></div><p>Nelson Rockefeller, his grandson, said of his grandfather: "He didn't break any laws . . . but a lot of laws were passed because of what he did."
</p><p>For the folks who don't know who John D. Rockefeller was, he was the Bill Gates of the 1800's, but with oil instead of windows.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" I do n't want a nation of thinkers , I want a nation of workers .
" [ deliberate...ngdown.com ] - John D. RockefellerNelson Rockefeller , his grandson , said of his grandfather : " He did n't break any laws .
. .
but a lot of laws were passed because of what he did .
" For the folks who do n't know who John D. Rockefeller was , he was the Bill Gates of the 1800 's , but with oil instead of windows .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> "I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers.
" [deliberate...ngdown.com] - John D. RockefellerNelson Rockefeller, his grandson, said of his grandfather: "He didn't break any laws .
. .
but a lot of laws were passed because of what he did.
"
For the folks who don't know who John D. Rockefeller was, he was the Bill Gates of the 1800's, but with oil instead of windows.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690078</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690458</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1270061940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree with you about vouchers. I think Charter schools are a reasonable compromise, so it is appropriate for Obama to push for those. The problem current problem with Charter Schools is that it requires the same school district personnel whose jobs are threatened by the success of charters schools to approve any new schools. Strangely enough, the Beaverton School District has steadfastly opposed ANY charter schools within the district. "Politics" and "Conflict of Interests" appear to be interchangible words these days.<br> <br>
P.S. I went to a Catholic High Schools as a non-Catholic, and my kid sisters were home schooled. I heartily recommend both as alternatives to public school education. Escalante should have taken his passion to a private school, where he could recruit willing students from all over LA (private school don't need to worry about arbitrary district boundaries). He could have had an even greater impact without having to fight an entrenched bureaucracy every step of the way.<br> <br>
In Escalante's memory, I say we all start petition drives to name one of our local schools after him -- it seems the most fitting tribute to this great man.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with you about vouchers .
I think Charter schools are a reasonable compromise , so it is appropriate for Obama to push for those .
The problem current problem with Charter Schools is that it requires the same school district personnel whose jobs are threatened by the success of charters schools to approve any new schools .
Strangely enough , the Beaverton School District has steadfastly opposed ANY charter schools within the district .
" Politics " and " Conflict of Interests " appear to be interchangible words these days .
P.S. I went to a Catholic High Schools as a non-Catholic , and my kid sisters were home schooled .
I heartily recommend both as alternatives to public school education .
Escalante should have taken his passion to a private school , where he could recruit willing students from all over LA ( private school do n't need to worry about arbitrary district boundaries ) .
He could have had an even greater impact without having to fight an entrenched bureaucracy every step of the way .
In Escalante 's memory , I say we all start petition drives to name one of our local schools after him -- it seems the most fitting tribute to this great man .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with you about vouchers.
I think Charter schools are a reasonable compromise, so it is appropriate for Obama to push for those.
The problem current problem with Charter Schools is that it requires the same school district personnel whose jobs are threatened by the success of charters schools to approve any new schools.
Strangely enough, the Beaverton School District has steadfastly opposed ANY charter schools within the district.
"Politics" and "Conflict of Interests" appear to be interchangible words these days.
P.S. I went to a Catholic High Schools as a non-Catholic, and my kid sisters were home schooled.
I heartily recommend both as alternatives to public school education.
Escalante should have taken his passion to a private school, where he could recruit willing students from all over LA (private school don't need to worry about arbitrary district boundaries).
He could have had an even greater impact without having to fight an entrenched bureaucracy every step of the way.
In Escalante's memory, I say we all start petition drives to name one of our local schools after him -- it seems the most fitting tribute to this great man.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690424</id>
	<title>Re:Truly</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270061760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward\_James\_Olmos" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward\_James\_Olmos</a> [wikipedia.org]
<br>
If people were to make that mistake, it may be due to the actor who portrayed him, who was (and might still be) Mexican.</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward \ _James \ _Olmos [ wikipedia.org ] If people were to make that mistake , it may be due to the actor who portrayed him , who was ( and might still be ) Mexican .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward\_James\_Olmos [wikipedia.org]

If people were to make that mistake, it may be due to the actor who portrayed him, who was (and might still be) Mexican.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690152</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692612</id>
	<title>The "welfare class"...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270026900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're absolutely right.</p><p>The so-called "welfare class" does not want to better themselves at all. Nor do those whose livelihood is based upon maintaining that perverted status quo (i.e. the Garfield school staff who pushed Escalante out and trashed his work). All that this class of people want to do is suck the money, life and soul out of everyone else who does work hard to better themselves as if to punish them for being successful.</p><p>And the saddest truth is that this class has now taken over our federal government, and also at least a half dozen of the state governments, and driven a death blow to this once-great nation, from which it most likely will never recover.</p><p>
&nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're absolutely right.The so-called " welfare class " does not want to better themselves at all .
Nor do those whose livelihood is based upon maintaining that perverted status quo ( i.e .
the Garfield school staff who pushed Escalante out and trashed his work ) .
All that this class of people want to do is suck the money , life and soul out of everyone else who does work hard to better themselves as if to punish them for being successful.And the saddest truth is that this class has now taken over our federal government , and also at least a half dozen of the state governments , and driven a death blow to this once-great nation , from which it most likely will never recover .
 </tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're absolutely right.The so-called "welfare class" does not want to better themselves at all.
Nor do those whose livelihood is based upon maintaining that perverted status quo (i.e.
the Garfield school staff who pushed Escalante out and trashed his work).
All that this class of people want to do is suck the money, life and soul out of everyone else who does work hard to better themselves as if to punish them for being successful.And the saddest truth is that this class has now taken over our federal government, and also at least a half dozen of the state governments, and driven a death blow to this once-great nation, from which it most likely will never recover.
 </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690014</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690718</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>Attila Dimedici</author>
	<datestamp>1270062900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I've never understood why the left, which has supported the idea of a single-payer health care system, can't get its head around vouchers, which amount to a single-payer education system.</p></div><p>Because their end goal is a single provider health care system for everybody but the elite, just like they already have for education (for the most part).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've never understood why the left , which has supported the idea of a single-payer health care system , ca n't get its head around vouchers , which amount to a single-payer education system.Because their end goal is a single provider health care system for everybody but the elite , just like they already have for education ( for the most part ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've never understood why the left, which has supported the idea of a single-payer health care system, can't get its head around vouchers, which amount to a single-payer education system.Because their end goal is a single provider health care system for everybody but the elite, just like they already have for education (for the most part).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31695684</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>colinrichardday</author>
	<datestamp>1270041600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they can't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.</i></p><p>Yeah, 'cause the Hutaree is absolutely no threat to anyone.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they ca n't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus , as far as I 'm concerned.Yeah , 'cause the Hutaree is absolutely no threat to anyone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they can't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.Yeah, 'cause the Hutaree is absolutely no threat to anyone.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690378</id>
	<title>Agreed, schools are for dumbing us down</title>
	<author>Paul Fernhout</author>
	<datestamp>1270061640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So true. And it's sad your post got modded down as Troll, since you are 100\% right on, and whoever did that is probably caught up in the ideology behind monstrosity that is modern schooling (of course, most private schools are little better). Escalante failed to make large changes and was taken down by the institution because, ultimately, he was doing what should not be done in schools -- get poor people to think and climb out of their assigned class in life. More supportive links:</p><p>Gatto:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; "Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling"<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-Schooling/dp/086571231X" title="amazon.com">http://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-Schooling/dp/086571231X</a> [amazon.com]<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt" title="newciv.org">http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt</a> [newciv.org]<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm" title="johntaylorgatto.com">http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm</a> [johntaylorgatto.com]<br>"""<br>Before you can reach a point of effectiveness in defending your own children or your principles against the assault of blind social machinery, you have to stop conspiring against yourself by attempting to negotiate with a set of abstract principles and rules which, by its nature, cannot respond. Under all its disguises, that is what institutional schooling is, an abstraction which has escaped its handlers. Nobody can reform it. First you have to realize that human values are the stuff of madness to a system; in systems-logic the schools we have are already the schools the system needs; the only way they could be much improved is to have kids eat, sleep, live, and die there.<br>"""</p><p>Illich:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-illic.htm" title="infed.org">http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-illic.htm</a> [infed.org]<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://reactor-core.org/deschooling.html" title="reactor-core.org">http://reactor-core.org/deschooling.html</a> [reactor-core.org]</p><p>John Holt:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://www.holtgws.com/" title="holtgws.com">http://www.holtgws.com/</a> [holtgws.com]</p><p>Collections of links by me on this:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-October/005379.html" title="listcultures.org">http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-October/005379.html</a> [listcultures.org]<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-November/005584.html" title="listcultures.org">http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-November/005584.html</a> [listcultures.org]<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-November/006005.html" title="listcultures.org">http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-November/006005.html</a> [listcultures.org]</p><p>Why not just give the school money directly to the parents as they see fit to take care of their children? One proposal (by me):<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://www.pdfernhout.net/towards-a-post-scarcity-new-york-state-of-mind.html" title="pdfernhout.net">http://www.pdfernhout.net/towards-a-post-scarcity-new-york-state-of-mind.html</a> [pdfernhout.net]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So true .
And it 's sad your post got modded down as Troll , since you are 100 \ % right on , and whoever did that is probably caught up in the ideology behind monstrosity that is modern schooling ( of course , most private schools are little better ) .
Escalante failed to make large changes and was taken down by the institution because , ultimately , he was doing what should not be done in schools -- get poor people to think and climb out of their assigned class in life .
More supportive links : Gatto :     " Dumbing Us Down : The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling "     http : //www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-Schooling/dp/086571231X [ amazon.com ]     http : //www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt [ newciv.org ]     http : //www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm [ johntaylorgatto.com ] " " " Before you can reach a point of effectiveness in defending your own children or your principles against the assault of blind social machinery , you have to stop conspiring against yourself by attempting to negotiate with a set of abstract principles and rules which , by its nature , can not respond .
Under all its disguises , that is what institutional schooling is , an abstraction which has escaped its handlers .
Nobody can reform it .
First you have to realize that human values are the stuff of madness to a system ; in systems-logic the schools we have are already the schools the system needs ; the only way they could be much improved is to have kids eat , sleep , live , and die there .
" " " Illich :     http : //www.infed.org/thinkers/et-illic.htm [ infed.org ]     http : //reactor-core.org/deschooling.html [ reactor-core.org ] John Holt :     http : //www.holtgws.com/ [ holtgws.com ] Collections of links by me on this :     http : //listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch \ _listcultures.org/2009-October/005379.html [ listcultures.org ]     http : //listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch \ _listcultures.org/2009-November/005584.html [ listcultures.org ]     http : //listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch \ _listcultures.org/2009-November/006005.html [ listcultures.org ] Why not just give the school money directly to the parents as they see fit to take care of their children ?
One proposal ( by me ) :     http : //www.pdfernhout.net/towards-a-post-scarcity-new-york-state-of-mind.html [ pdfernhout.net ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So true.
And it's sad your post got modded down as Troll, since you are 100\% right on, and whoever did that is probably caught up in the ideology behind monstrosity that is modern schooling (of course, most private schools are little better).
Escalante failed to make large changes and was taken down by the institution because, ultimately, he was doing what should not be done in schools -- get poor people to think and climb out of their assigned class in life.
More supportive links:Gatto:
    "Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling"
    http://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-Schooling/dp/086571231X [amazon.com]
    http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt [newciv.org]
    http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm [johntaylorgatto.com]"""Before you can reach a point of effectiveness in defending your own children or your principles against the assault of blind social machinery, you have to stop conspiring against yourself by attempting to negotiate with a set of abstract principles and rules which, by its nature, cannot respond.
Under all its disguises, that is what institutional schooling is, an abstraction which has escaped its handlers.
Nobody can reform it.
First you have to realize that human values are the stuff of madness to a system; in systems-logic the schools we have are already the schools the system needs; the only way they could be much improved is to have kids eat, sleep, live, and die there.
"""Illich:
    http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-illic.htm [infed.org]
    http://reactor-core.org/deschooling.html [reactor-core.org]John Holt:
    http://www.holtgws.com/ [holtgws.com]Collections of links by me on this:
    http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-October/005379.html [listcultures.org]
    http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-November/005584.html [listcultures.org]
    http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-November/006005.html [listcultures.org]Why not just give the school money directly to the parents as they see fit to take care of their children?
One proposal (by me):
    http://www.pdfernhout.net/towards-a-post-scarcity-new-york-state-of-mind.html [pdfernhout.net]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690078</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690830</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>istartedi</author>
	<datestamp>1270063260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <em>I've never understood why the left</em> </p><p>Union, unions, UNIONS! vs. Blacks!</p><p>Yes, it's one of the issues that tears at the fabric
of two core Democratic Party groups.  I've seen polls [citation needed]
where the majority of Blacks support vouchers.  Many of their
communities are strongly religious, and that tends to be part
of the reason for the support.  Unions, OTOH, know that many
of those small, diverse, competing schools won't sign a contract.</p><p>So far, Union money beats Black desire in the Democratic Party.
</p><p>Said before, and said again, no real progress in the USA until
we break the shackles of entrenched special interests on both the Left
and the Right.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've never understood why the left Union , unions , UNIONS !
vs. Blacks ! Yes , it 's one of the issues that tears at the fabric of two core Democratic Party groups .
I 've seen polls [ citation needed ] where the majority of Blacks support vouchers .
Many of their communities are strongly religious , and that tends to be part of the reason for the support .
Unions , OTOH , know that many of those small , diverse , competing schools wo n't sign a contract.So far , Union money beats Black desire in the Democratic Party .
Said before , and said again , no real progress in the USA until we break the shackles of entrenched special interests on both the Left and the Right .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I've never understood why the left Union, unions, UNIONS!
vs. Blacks!Yes, it's one of the issues that tears at the fabric
of two core Democratic Party groups.
I've seen polls [citation needed]
where the majority of Blacks support vouchers.
Many of their
communities are strongly religious, and that tends to be part
of the reason for the support.
Unions, OTOH, know that many
of those small, diverse, competing schools won't sign a contract.So far, Union money beats Black desire in the Democratic Party.
Said before, and said again, no real progress in the USA until
we break the shackles of entrenched special interests on both the Left
and the Right.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31694592</id>
	<title>Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves.</title>
	<author>yurtinus</author>
	<datestamp>1270035960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Find me that one ghetto kid who made something big of their life despite parents who weren't around, teachers who didn't care, and friends who had no life goals beyond "don't get stabbed" and you'll find a douchebag liar who doesn't acknowledge the folks who helped them out along the way. Nobody gets ahead completely on their own.
<br> <br>
In this particular case - people can't better themselves when they don't realize what that actually means. When "the good life" is squeaking by without working and still scoring that sweet new iPhone, there's a cultural problem that takes some truly motivated outside influence to fix. This guy showed the kids what they could do, gave them the tools to do it, and then a handful of his students had the motivation to make it work. You could put a teacher like this in many schools and see similar results because you're right - it isn't about the people being stupid. It's about somebody telling them *how* they can improve their situation. Some will take the advice and some won't, but you sure as hell will see better results than insisting everybody figure it out for themselves.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Find me that one ghetto kid who made something big of their life despite parents who were n't around , teachers who did n't care , and friends who had no life goals beyond " do n't get stabbed " and you 'll find a douchebag liar who does n't acknowledge the folks who helped them out along the way .
Nobody gets ahead completely on their own .
In this particular case - people ca n't better themselves when they do n't realize what that actually means .
When " the good life " is squeaking by without working and still scoring that sweet new iPhone , there 's a cultural problem that takes some truly motivated outside influence to fix .
This guy showed the kids what they could do , gave them the tools to do it , and then a handful of his students had the motivation to make it work .
You could put a teacher like this in many schools and see similar results because you 're right - it is n't about the people being stupid .
It 's about somebody telling them * how * they can improve their situation .
Some will take the advice and some wo n't , but you sure as hell will see better results than insisting everybody figure it out for themselves .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Find me that one ghetto kid who made something big of their life despite parents who weren't around, teachers who didn't care, and friends who had no life goals beyond "don't get stabbed" and you'll find a douchebag liar who doesn't acknowledge the folks who helped them out along the way.
Nobody gets ahead completely on their own.
In this particular case - people can't better themselves when they don't realize what that actually means.
When "the good life" is squeaking by without working and still scoring that sweet new iPhone, there's a cultural problem that takes some truly motivated outside influence to fix.
This guy showed the kids what they could do, gave them the tools to do it, and then a handful of his students had the motivation to make it work.
You could put a teacher like this in many schools and see similar results because you're right - it isn't about the people being stupid.
It's about somebody telling them *how* they can improve their situation.
Some will take the advice and some won't, but you sure as hell will see better results than insisting everybody figure it out for themselves.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690014</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690152</id>
	<title>Re:Truly</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1270060560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>He was from Bolivia. Hispanic != Mexican.</htmltext>
<tokenext>He was from Bolivia .
Hispanic ! = Mexican .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He was from Bolivia.
Hispanic != Mexican.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31689974</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691300</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270065120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>leftist extremist?  what does that mean?</p><p>my father grew up in a house with a dirt floor, in a rough neighborhood,  he picked crops when he wasn't in school, and he frequented establishments where the bathrooms had on the doors: "whites only, all others out back"</p><p>he put himself through college, he speaks several languages, served in the airforce, and he considers himself a liberal.</p><p>as his son, I can guarantee you that he's very familiar with Escalante's work.  He's also familiar with the modern leftist movement.</p><p>your admission that you are a leftist extremist would provoke a 20 minute round of laughter.</p><p>he has zero respect for modern liberals.</p><p>and yes, he hates republicans too.</p><p>but he despises hypocrisy and willful stupidity.</p><p>you have nothing in common with my father,  and you have nothing in common with Mr. Escalante, and you have nothing in common with liberals from 50 years ago.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>leftist extremist ?
what does that mean ? my father grew up in a house with a dirt floor , in a rough neighborhood , he picked crops when he was n't in school , and he frequented establishments where the bathrooms had on the doors : " whites only , all others out back " he put himself through college , he speaks several languages , served in the airforce , and he considers himself a liberal.as his son , I can guarantee you that he 's very familiar with Escalante 's work .
He 's also familiar with the modern leftist movement.your admission that you are a leftist extremist would provoke a 20 minute round of laughter.he has zero respect for modern liberals.and yes , he hates republicans too.but he despises hypocrisy and willful stupidity.you have nothing in common with my father , and you have nothing in common with Mr. Escalante , and you have nothing in common with liberals from 50 years ago .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>leftist extremist?
what does that mean?my father grew up in a house with a dirt floor, in a rough neighborhood,  he picked crops when he wasn't in school, and he frequented establishments where the bathrooms had on the doors: "whites only, all others out back"he put himself through college, he speaks several languages, served in the airforce, and he considers himself a liberal.as his son, I can guarantee you that he's very familiar with Escalante's work.
He's also familiar with the modern leftist movement.your admission that you are a leftist extremist would provoke a 20 minute round of laughter.he has zero respect for modern liberals.and yes, he hates republicans too.but he despises hypocrisy and willful stupidity.you have nothing in common with my father,  and you have nothing in common with Mr. Escalante, and you have nothing in common with liberals from 50 years ago.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690142</id>
	<title>Shining Example</title>
	<author>Jaysyn</author>
	<datestamp>1270060500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is a shining example of how politics are ruining America's youth.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is a shining example of how politics are ruining America 's youth .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is a shining example of how politics are ruining America's youth.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31693122</id>
	<title>Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270028700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Mr. Escalante's ghost is going to punch you in your vagina for your disgusting spin.</p><p>I spit on you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Mr. Escalante 's ghost is going to punch you in your vagina for your disgusting spin.I spit on you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mr. Escalante's ghost is going to punch you in your vagina for your disgusting spin.I spit on you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690230</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690838</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>ShakaUVM</author>
	<datestamp>1270063320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;&gt;Public schools are not about education, its about creating dumbed down automatons who are easily controlled.</p><p>You know it's funny. I work teaching teachers technology, and I can't recall ever hearing a teacher say they really wished their kids would all be dumbed down automatons. Instead, you hear them all sharing positive stories about a kid that gets engaged with the subject matter and starts thinking on his own. Except for some really burned out teachers, this is pretty much universally true. They ALL want kids interested in a subject, capable of critical and independent thought, and being successful in life (ideally by going to college).</p><p>Now - inter-teacher rivalries and jealousies? Sure, I'll believe in that explanation as to why they undid the program at Garfield. But losing your entire cadre of teachers trained in his method probably had more to do with it than anything.</p><p>The only bit that I will agree with you in this regard is that schools tend to be very socially conservative institutions (by this I don't mean politically conservative, like Republicans, but rather resistant to change). AAA teachers tend to get kicked out of the system. I had Jan Gabay as my English teacher for the 9th and 12th grades - she was Teacher of the Year for the entire country in 1990-something, did a year traveling the country speaking on teaching, went back to Serra High for a couple years, and has since quit public schools to teach at the UC San Diego Charter School.</p><p>I also had Rick Halsey (IIRC, grandson of Admiral Bull Halsey) as a bio an AP Bio teacher, was an amazing teacher who took us into the canyons near the school to study actual plants and animals in the chaparral ecosystem. Every year he took his students on a week-long trip during Spring Break to go kayaking down the Colorado River or hiking in Anza Borrego, etc. He quit because the school was worried he was exposing them to too much liability risk.</p><p>Our system right now is rather dysfunctional. But teachers want kids to succeed - they don't want to produce dumb automatons. It's no longer the 1800s where we need to prep kids for work in the mills - "21st Century Skills" and all that is the current paradigm in education.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; &gt; Public schools are not about education , its about creating dumbed down automatons who are easily controlled.You know it 's funny .
I work teaching teachers technology , and I ca n't recall ever hearing a teacher say they really wished their kids would all be dumbed down automatons .
Instead , you hear them all sharing positive stories about a kid that gets engaged with the subject matter and starts thinking on his own .
Except for some really burned out teachers , this is pretty much universally true .
They ALL want kids interested in a subject , capable of critical and independent thought , and being successful in life ( ideally by going to college ) .Now - inter-teacher rivalries and jealousies ?
Sure , I 'll believe in that explanation as to why they undid the program at Garfield .
But losing your entire cadre of teachers trained in his method probably had more to do with it than anything.The only bit that I will agree with you in this regard is that schools tend to be very socially conservative institutions ( by this I do n't mean politically conservative , like Republicans , but rather resistant to change ) .
AAA teachers tend to get kicked out of the system .
I had Jan Gabay as my English teacher for the 9th and 12th grades - she was Teacher of the Year for the entire country in 1990-something , did a year traveling the country speaking on teaching , went back to Serra High for a couple years , and has since quit public schools to teach at the UC San Diego Charter School.I also had Rick Halsey ( IIRC , grandson of Admiral Bull Halsey ) as a bio an AP Bio teacher , was an amazing teacher who took us into the canyons near the school to study actual plants and animals in the chaparral ecosystem .
Every year he took his students on a week-long trip during Spring Break to go kayaking down the Colorado River or hiking in Anza Borrego , etc .
He quit because the school was worried he was exposing them to too much liability risk.Our system right now is rather dysfunctional .
But teachers want kids to succeed - they do n't want to produce dumb automatons .
It 's no longer the 1800s where we need to prep kids for work in the mills - " 21st Century Skills " and all that is the current paradigm in education .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;&gt;Public schools are not about education, its about creating dumbed down automatons who are easily controlled.You know it's funny.
I work teaching teachers technology, and I can't recall ever hearing a teacher say they really wished their kids would all be dumbed down automatons.
Instead, you hear them all sharing positive stories about a kid that gets engaged with the subject matter and starts thinking on his own.
Except for some really burned out teachers, this is pretty much universally true.
They ALL want kids interested in a subject, capable of critical and independent thought, and being successful in life (ideally by going to college).Now - inter-teacher rivalries and jealousies?
Sure, I'll believe in that explanation as to why they undid the program at Garfield.
But losing your entire cadre of teachers trained in his method probably had more to do with it than anything.The only bit that I will agree with you in this regard is that schools tend to be very socially conservative institutions (by this I don't mean politically conservative, like Republicans, but rather resistant to change).
AAA teachers tend to get kicked out of the system.
I had Jan Gabay as my English teacher for the 9th and 12th grades - she was Teacher of the Year for the entire country in 1990-something, did a year traveling the country speaking on teaching, went back to Serra High for a couple years, and has since quit public schools to teach at the UC San Diego Charter School.I also had Rick Halsey (IIRC, grandson of Admiral Bull Halsey) as a bio an AP Bio teacher, was an amazing teacher who took us into the canyons near the school to study actual plants and animals in the chaparral ecosystem.
Every year he took his students on a week-long trip during Spring Break to go kayaking down the Colorado River or hiking in Anza Borrego, etc.
He quit because the school was worried he was exposing them to too much liability risk.Our system right now is rather dysfunctional.
But teachers want kids to succeed - they don't want to produce dumb automatons.
It's no longer the 1800s where we need to prep kids for work in the mills - "21st Century Skills" and all that is the current paradigm in education.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690078</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31701976</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>ajlisows</author>
	<datestamp>1270150740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have to agree with you.  I know several teachers and the performance of their students seems to have a direct effect on their general mood.  If they have students that are getting the material and pushing themselves to learn more, the teachers are happy outside of work.  When they get a batch of kids that don't give a shit about their education, the teachers seem down to the point of depression and talk about going back to school to get their PhD so they can teach college where people might be interested in the material.  I never once heard  a single one of them say "Gee, I wish my students were mindless automatons."  </p><p>I'm sure there are plenty of teachers who just don't give a damn.  There are plenty of developers like that.  And Network Admins.  And Drill Press Operators.   And Accountants.  Every profession is going to have that group that hates their field and does a mediocre to poor job because of it.   The school I went to had a mix of both.  The core science teachers they had were absolutely ridiculous in their desire to do a good job.  My class happened to have a decent number of advanced individuals, so they set up new AP classes for Chemistry, Physics, and Biology.   We tore through those as juniors so the teachers sat down and developed a THIRD year of those three subjects for the handful of us that were interested.    We were assigned a pretty intensive research paper and they took us on "Field Trips" to college libraries to do research.   They got us involved in science/math type competitions which they sacrificed nights and weekends to take us to.   The Biology teacher would take us out to a nearby park to show us what we were learning about.   It was fantastic.  I left high school with knowledge well beyond the first two semesters of college Zoology, college chem, and college physics.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have to agree with you .
I know several teachers and the performance of their students seems to have a direct effect on their general mood .
If they have students that are getting the material and pushing themselves to learn more , the teachers are happy outside of work .
When they get a batch of kids that do n't give a shit about their education , the teachers seem down to the point of depression and talk about going back to school to get their PhD so they can teach college where people might be interested in the material .
I never once heard a single one of them say " Gee , I wish my students were mindless automatons .
" I 'm sure there are plenty of teachers who just do n't give a damn .
There are plenty of developers like that .
And Network Admins .
And Drill Press Operators .
And Accountants .
Every profession is going to have that group that hates their field and does a mediocre to poor job because of it .
The school I went to had a mix of both .
The core science teachers they had were absolutely ridiculous in their desire to do a good job .
My class happened to have a decent number of advanced individuals , so they set up new AP classes for Chemistry , Physics , and Biology .
We tore through those as juniors so the teachers sat down and developed a THIRD year of those three subjects for the handful of us that were interested .
We were assigned a pretty intensive research paper and they took us on " Field Trips " to college libraries to do research .
They got us involved in science/math type competitions which they sacrificed nights and weekends to take us to .
The Biology teacher would take us out to a nearby park to show us what we were learning about .
It was fantastic .
I left high school with knowledge well beyond the first two semesters of college Zoology , college chem , and college physics .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have to agree with you.
I know several teachers and the performance of their students seems to have a direct effect on their general mood.
If they have students that are getting the material and pushing themselves to learn more, the teachers are happy outside of work.
When they get a batch of kids that don't give a shit about their education, the teachers seem down to the point of depression and talk about going back to school to get their PhD so they can teach college where people might be interested in the material.
I never once heard  a single one of them say "Gee, I wish my students were mindless automatons.
"  I'm sure there are plenty of teachers who just don't give a damn.
There are plenty of developers like that.
And Network Admins.
And Drill Press Operators.
And Accountants.
Every profession is going to have that group that hates their field and does a mediocre to poor job because of it.
The school I went to had a mix of both.
The core science teachers they had were absolutely ridiculous in their desire to do a good job.
My class happened to have a decent number of advanced individuals, so they set up new AP classes for Chemistry, Physics, and Biology.
We tore through those as juniors so the teachers sat down and developed a THIRD year of those three subjects for the handful of us that were interested.
We were assigned a pretty intensive research paper and they took us on "Field Trips" to college libraries to do research.
They got us involved in science/math type competitions which they sacrificed nights and weekends to take us to.
The Biology teacher would take us out to a nearby park to show us what we were learning about.
It was fantastic.
I left high school with knowledge well beyond the first two semesters of college Zoology, college chem, and college physics.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690838</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691412</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>corbettw</author>
	<datestamp>1270065600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they can't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.</p></div><p>Well said. As a parent with kids in elementary and middle school in North Texas, I'd be thrilled to be able to send my kids to a private school with a completely areligious curriculum. As it is, I have to make sure my kids understand that there's no Invisible Sky Wizard and that their teachers are completely wrong (and quite possibly insane) if they suggest there is. Then of course I have to call and complain to the principal and school board offices (again), even though that does absolutely nothing.</p><p>*sigh* At least the kids are getting an early lesson on why you can't just blindly trust what authority has to say but you have to make them prove their assertions along with everyone else.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they ca n't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus , as far as I 'm concerned.Well said .
As a parent with kids in elementary and middle school in North Texas , I 'd be thrilled to be able to send my kids to a private school with a completely areligious curriculum .
As it is , I have to make sure my kids understand that there 's no Invisible Sky Wizard and that their teachers are completely wrong ( and quite possibly insane ) if they suggest there is .
Then of course I have to call and complain to the principal and school board offices ( again ) , even though that does absolutely nothing .
* sigh * At least the kids are getting an early lesson on why you ca n't just blindly trust what authority has to say but you have to make them prove their assertions along with everyone else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Getting the fundamentalist nutjobs out of the public schools and into their own little inbred communities where they can't do any harm to the rest of society would just be a bonus, as far as I'm concerned.Well said.
As a parent with kids in elementary and middle school in North Texas, I'd be thrilled to be able to send my kids to a private school with a completely areligious curriculum.
As it is, I have to make sure my kids understand that there's no Invisible Sky Wizard and that their teachers are completely wrong (and quite possibly insane) if they suggest there is.
Then of course I have to call and complain to the principal and school board offices (again), even though that does absolutely nothing.
*sigh* At least the kids are getting an early lesson on why you can't just blindly trust what authority has to say but you have to make them prove their assertions along with everyone else.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690936</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>twoallbeefpatties</author>
	<datestamp>1270063740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Much for the same reason I don't support the privatization of our police forces, fire response, safety inspections, military, city planning, and other social services.  Just because things are bad now doesn't mean you can't screw them up worse by putting them into for-profit hands.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Much for the same reason I do n't support the privatization of our police forces , fire response , safety inspections , military , city planning , and other social services .
Just because things are bad now does n't mean you ca n't screw them up worse by putting them into for-profit hands .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Much for the same reason I don't support the privatization of our police forces, fire response, safety inspections, military, city planning, and other social services.
Just because things are bad now doesn't mean you can't screw them up worse by putting them into for-profit hands.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691014</id>
	<title>One bizarre danger of vouchers</title>
	<author>postermmxvicom</author>
	<datestamp>1270063980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I personally know a man who has run a private school for 40+ years. Where he lives, there used to be a voucher program. Many private schools went through the hoops to restructure to qualify. In then end, the schools that accepted the vouchers had to close.<br> <br>

Why? Well, eventually the voucher program was brought to court. The schools had grown dependent on the voucher program. The families had grown dependent. When the money was gone, they all had to shut down. Except for the schools which had avoided the voucher program.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I personally know a man who has run a private school for 40 + years .
Where he lives , there used to be a voucher program .
Many private schools went through the hoops to restructure to qualify .
In then end , the schools that accepted the vouchers had to close .
Why ? Well , eventually the voucher program was brought to court .
The schools had grown dependent on the voucher program .
The families had grown dependent .
When the money was gone , they all had to shut down .
Except for the schools which had avoided the voucher program .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I personally know a man who has run a private school for 40+ years.
Where he lives, there used to be a voucher program.
Many private schools went through the hoops to restructure to qualify.
In then end, the schools that accepted the vouchers had to close.
Why? Well, eventually the voucher program was brought to court.
The schools had grown dependent on the voucher program.
The families had grown dependent.
When the money was gone, they all had to shut down.
Except for the schools which had avoided the voucher program.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31696278</id>
	<title>Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves.</title>
	<author>ObsessiveMathsFreak</author>
	<datestamp>1270046280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>He showed that, by nature, inner city hispanic kids were just as capable at advanced studies as anyone else -- it simply required a mixture of blasting the old nurture ("You'll never be good enough to be something like an engineer, so why don't you just open a restaurant, work construction, or run a shop?") with discipline, attention, expectation, and teaching.</p></div></blockquote><p>It also required actually providing the programs to begin with. Let's face it; if your school does not provide the more advanced levels of study in a field, then what is the point for the stuents in studying the lower level ones? If I told you your school would never provide Science classes in the senior cycle, would you spend as much time studying in in the Junior cycle? Or would you invest in a topic you knew you had further opportunity in.</p><p>Interest and passion are all very well, but practicalities come into it too. Teenagers are by no means stupid and even the ones that spend only a few minutes choosing their subjects will be weighing the pros and cons of each.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>He showed that , by nature , inner city hispanic kids were just as capable at advanced studies as anyone else -- it simply required a mixture of blasting the old nurture ( " You 'll never be good enough to be something like an engineer , so why do n't you just open a restaurant , work construction , or run a shop ?
" ) with discipline , attention , expectation , and teaching.It also required actually providing the programs to begin with .
Let 's face it ; if your school does not provide the more advanced levels of study in a field , then what is the point for the stuents in studying the lower level ones ?
If I told you your school would never provide Science classes in the senior cycle , would you spend as much time studying in in the Junior cycle ?
Or would you invest in a topic you knew you had further opportunity in.Interest and passion are all very well , but practicalities come into it too .
Teenagers are by no means stupid and even the ones that spend only a few minutes choosing their subjects will be weighing the pros and cons of each .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He showed that, by nature, inner city hispanic kids were just as capable at advanced studies as anyone else -- it simply required a mixture of blasting the old nurture ("You'll never be good enough to be something like an engineer, so why don't you just open a restaurant, work construction, or run a shop?
") with discipline, attention, expectation, and teaching.It also required actually providing the programs to begin with.
Let's face it; if your school does not provide the more advanced levels of study in a field, then what is the point for the stuents in studying the lower level ones?
If I told you your school would never provide Science classes in the senior cycle, would you spend as much time studying in in the Junior cycle?
Or would you invest in a topic you knew you had further opportunity in.Interest and passion are all very well, but practicalities come into it too.
Teenagers are by no means stupid and even the ones that spend only a few minutes choosing their subjects will be weighing the pros and cons of each.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690174</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692960</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>misexistentialist</author>
	<datestamp>1270028040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Teachers unions support Democrats. What's hard to understand?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Teachers unions support Democrats .
What 's hard to understand ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Teachers unions support Democrats.
What's hard to understand?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691214</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>Paul Fernhout</author>
	<datestamp>1270064760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Be careful not to make a classical mistake of confusing the intentions of the parts (teachers, who I agree mostly mean well and want to help kids grow), with the intentions of the whole system (to dumb kids down so they fit into a 19th century militaristic industrial society, like NYS teacher of the year John Taylor Gatto writes about).<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm" title="johntaylorgatto.com">http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm</a> [johntaylorgatto.com]<br>"""<br>Before you can reach a point of effectiveness in defending your own children or your principles against the assault of blind social machinery, you have to stop conspiring against yourself by attempting to negotiate with a set of abstract principles and rules which, by its nature, cannot respond. Under all its disguises, that is what institutional schooling is, an abstraction which has escaped its handlers. Nobody can reform it. First you have to realize that human values are the stuff of madness to a system; in systems-logic the schools we have are already the schools the system needs; the only way they could be much improved is to have kids eat, sleep, live, and die there.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Schools got the way they were at the start of the twentieth century as part of a vast, intensely engineered social revolution in which all major institutions were overhauled to work together in harmonious managerial efficiency. Ours was to be an improvement on the British system, which once depended on a shared upper-class culture for its coherence. Ours would be subject to a rational framework of science, law, instruction, and mathematically derived merit. When Morgan reorganized the American marketplace into a world of cooperating trusts at the end of the nineteenth century, he created a business and financial subsystem to interlink with the subsystem of government, the subsystem of schooling, and other subsystems to regulate every other aspect of national life. None of this was conspiratorial. Each increment was rationally defensible. But the net effect was the destruction of small-town, small-government America, strong families, individual liberty, and a lot of other things people weren't aware they were trading for a regular corporate paycheck.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; A huge price had to be paid for business and government efficiency, a price we still pay in the quality of our existence. Part of what kids gave up was the prospect of being able to read very well, a historic part of the American genius. Instead, school had to train them for their role in the new overarching social system. But spare yourself the agony of thinking of this as a conspiracy. It was and is a fully rational transaction, the very epitome of rationalization engendered by a group of honorable men, all honorable men--but with decisive help from ordinary citizens, from almost all of us as we gradually lost touch with the fact that being followers instead of leaders, becoming consumers in place of producers, rendered us incompletely human. It was a naturally occurring conspiracy, one which required no criminal genius. The real conspirators were ourselves. When we sold our liberty for the promise of automatic security, we became like children in a conspiracy against growing up, sad children who conspire against their own children, consigning them over and over to the denaturing vats of compulsory state factory schooling.<br>"""</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Be careful not to make a classical mistake of confusing the intentions of the parts ( teachers , who I agree mostly mean well and want to help kids grow ) , with the intentions of the whole system ( to dumb kids down so they fit into a 19th century militaristic industrial society , like NYS teacher of the year John Taylor Gatto writes about ) .
    http : //www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm [ johntaylorgatto.com ] " " " Before you can reach a point of effectiveness in defending your own children or your principles against the assault of blind social machinery , you have to stop conspiring against yourself by attempting to negotiate with a set of abstract principles and rules which , by its nature , can not respond .
Under all its disguises , that is what institutional schooling is , an abstraction which has escaped its handlers .
Nobody can reform it .
First you have to realize that human values are the stuff of madness to a system ; in systems-logic the schools we have are already the schools the system needs ; the only way they could be much improved is to have kids eat , sleep , live , and die there .
    Schools got the way they were at the start of the twentieth century as part of a vast , intensely engineered social revolution in which all major institutions were overhauled to work together in harmonious managerial efficiency .
Ours was to be an improvement on the British system , which once depended on a shared upper-class culture for its coherence .
Ours would be subject to a rational framework of science , law , instruction , and mathematically derived merit .
When Morgan reorganized the American marketplace into a world of cooperating trusts at the end of the nineteenth century , he created a business and financial subsystem to interlink with the subsystem of government , the subsystem of schooling , and other subsystems to regulate every other aspect of national life .
None of this was conspiratorial .
Each increment was rationally defensible .
But the net effect was the destruction of small-town , small-government America , strong families , individual liberty , and a lot of other things people were n't aware they were trading for a regular corporate paycheck .
    A huge price had to be paid for business and government efficiency , a price we still pay in the quality of our existence .
Part of what kids gave up was the prospect of being able to read very well , a historic part of the American genius .
Instead , school had to train them for their role in the new overarching social system .
But spare yourself the agony of thinking of this as a conspiracy .
It was and is a fully rational transaction , the very epitome of rationalization engendered by a group of honorable men , all honorable men--but with decisive help from ordinary citizens , from almost all of us as we gradually lost touch with the fact that being followers instead of leaders , becoming consumers in place of producers , rendered us incompletely human .
It was a naturally occurring conspiracy , one which required no criminal genius .
The real conspirators were ourselves .
When we sold our liberty for the promise of automatic security , we became like children in a conspiracy against growing up , sad children who conspire against their own children , consigning them over and over to the denaturing vats of compulsory state factory schooling .
" " "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Be careful not to make a classical mistake of confusing the intentions of the parts (teachers, who I agree mostly mean well and want to help kids grow), with the intentions of the whole system (to dumb kids down so they fit into a 19th century militaristic industrial society, like NYS teacher of the year John Taylor Gatto writes about).
    http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm [johntaylorgatto.com]"""Before you can reach a point of effectiveness in defending your own children or your principles against the assault of blind social machinery, you have to stop conspiring against yourself by attempting to negotiate with a set of abstract principles and rules which, by its nature, cannot respond.
Under all its disguises, that is what institutional schooling is, an abstraction which has escaped its handlers.
Nobody can reform it.
First you have to realize that human values are the stuff of madness to a system; in systems-logic the schools we have are already the schools the system needs; the only way they could be much improved is to have kids eat, sleep, live, and die there.
    Schools got the way they were at the start of the twentieth century as part of a vast, intensely engineered social revolution in which all major institutions were overhauled to work together in harmonious managerial efficiency.
Ours was to be an improvement on the British system, which once depended on a shared upper-class culture for its coherence.
Ours would be subject to a rational framework of science, law, instruction, and mathematically derived merit.
When Morgan reorganized the American marketplace into a world of cooperating trusts at the end of the nineteenth century, he created a business and financial subsystem to interlink with the subsystem of government, the subsystem of schooling, and other subsystems to regulate every other aspect of national life.
None of this was conspiratorial.
Each increment was rationally defensible.
But the net effect was the destruction of small-town, small-government America, strong families, individual liberty, and a lot of other things people weren't aware they were trading for a regular corporate paycheck.
    A huge price had to be paid for business and government efficiency, a price we still pay in the quality of our existence.
Part of what kids gave up was the prospect of being able to read very well, a historic part of the American genius.
Instead, school had to train them for their role in the new overarching social system.
But spare yourself the agony of thinking of this as a conspiracy.
It was and is a fully rational transaction, the very epitome of rationalization engendered by a group of honorable men, all honorable men--but with decisive help from ordinary citizens, from almost all of us as we gradually lost touch with the fact that being followers instead of leaders, becoming consumers in place of producers, rendered us incompletely human.
It was a naturally occurring conspiracy, one which required no criminal genius.
The real conspirators were ourselves.
When we sold our liberty for the promise of automatic security, we became like children in a conspiracy against growing up, sad children who conspire against their own children, consigning them over and over to the denaturing vats of compulsory state factory schooling.
"""</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690838</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690516</id>
	<title>Re:Truly</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270062180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think Carlos Mencias pointed this out before. If you are hispanic and live in L.A. you are Mexican.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think Carlos Mencias pointed this out before .
If you are hispanic and live in L.A. you are Mexican .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think Carlos Mencias pointed this out before.
If you are hispanic and live in L.A. you are Mexican.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690152</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692026</id>
	<title>Re:Truly</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1270068060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Only if your family has been living there since before the border moved south...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Only if your family has been living there since before the border moved south.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Only if your family has been living there since before the border moved south...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690516</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690174</id>
	<title>Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves.</title>
	<author>CorporateSuit</author>
	<datestamp>1270060620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>His case is an interesting one in the Nature vs. Nurture argument.  He showed that, by nature, inner city hispanic kids were just as capable at advanced studies as anyone else -- it simply required a mixture of blasting the old nurture ("You'll never be good enough to be something like an engineer, so why don't you just open a restaurant, work construction, or run a shop?") with discipline, attention, expectation, and teaching.</htmltext>
<tokenext>His case is an interesting one in the Nature vs. Nurture argument .
He showed that , by nature , inner city hispanic kids were just as capable at advanced studies as anyone else -- it simply required a mixture of blasting the old nurture ( " You 'll never be good enough to be something like an engineer , so why do n't you just open a restaurant , work construction , or run a shop ?
" ) with discipline , attention , expectation , and teaching .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>His case is an interesting one in the Nature vs. Nurture argument.
He showed that, by nature, inner city hispanic kids were just as capable at advanced studies as anyone else -- it simply required a mixture of blasting the old nurture ("You'll never be good enough to be something like an engineer, so why don't you just open a restaurant, work construction, or run a shop?
") with discipline, attention, expectation, and teaching.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690014</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31694240</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>jdcope</author>
	<datestamp>1270034100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Then maybe we should change how the money is distributed at the federal level. Here in Oregon, all schools are funded equally. All the tax money goes to the fund, then they all get the same amount per kid, period.
That way all the "rich" and "poor" neighborhoods all have the same funding.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Then maybe we should change how the money is distributed at the federal level .
Here in Oregon , all schools are funded equally .
All the tax money goes to the fund , then they all get the same amount per kid , period .
That way all the " rich " and " poor " neighborhoods all have the same funding .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then maybe we should change how the money is distributed at the federal level.
Here in Oregon, all schools are funded equally.
All the tax money goes to the fund, then they all get the same amount per kid, period.
That way all the "rich" and "poor" neighborhoods all have the same funding.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690468</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692222</id>
	<title>Re:Rest in peace.</title>
	<author>raddan</author>
	<datestamp>1270068660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>But it's more than that.  You can't just set the bar arbitrarily high and hope that your kids will reach it.  Many (most?) of them won't.
<br> <br>
Why?  Because education is cumulative.  The difference between the 8th grade and the 7th grade is <em>supposed</em> to be that the 8th grade students learn more advanced materials based on their learning in the 7th grade.  In practice, it doesn't work that way, because curricula are myopic, because teachers don't care/only care about their fiefdom, because students lack any motivation, etc, etc, etc.
<br> <br>
Escalante saw all of this and said: OK, let's fix this.  Let's start the program early (cumulative).  Let's tell kids that this is their way out/their ticket to self-actualization (motivation).  Let's make sure the right teachers are on the job (handpicked teachers who care).
<br> <br>
Throwing a kid into a calculus class to challenge him when all he's done is geometry is a surefire way to turn a kid off.  This happened to me: they threw me into AP physics because I did well in other classes, but I had yet to take precalc, trig, or calculus.  That experience turned me off to physics for a <em>long</em> time.  I barely scraped by with a D, and I was one of the motivated ones (I won the high school science fair that year, for building a circuit that 'amplified' signals using stochastic resonance).  Guess how motivated I was after <em>that</em> failure.</htmltext>
<tokenext>But it 's more than that .
You ca n't just set the bar arbitrarily high and hope that your kids will reach it .
Many ( most ?
) of them wo n't .
Why ? Because education is cumulative .
The difference between the 8th grade and the 7th grade is supposed to be that the 8th grade students learn more advanced materials based on their learning in the 7th grade .
In practice , it does n't work that way , because curricula are myopic , because teachers do n't care/only care about their fiefdom , because students lack any motivation , etc , etc , etc .
Escalante saw all of this and said : OK , let 's fix this .
Let 's start the program early ( cumulative ) .
Let 's tell kids that this is their way out/their ticket to self-actualization ( motivation ) .
Let 's make sure the right teachers are on the job ( handpicked teachers who care ) .
Throwing a kid into a calculus class to challenge him when all he 's done is geometry is a surefire way to turn a kid off .
This happened to me : they threw me into AP physics because I did well in other classes , but I had yet to take precalc , trig , or calculus .
That experience turned me off to physics for a long time .
I barely scraped by with a D , and I was one of the motivated ones ( I won the high school science fair that year , for building a circuit that 'amplified ' signals using stochastic resonance ) .
Guess how motivated I was after that failure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But it's more than that.
You can't just set the bar arbitrarily high and hope that your kids will reach it.
Many (most?
) of them won't.
Why?  Because education is cumulative.
The difference between the 8th grade and the 7th grade is supposed to be that the 8th grade students learn more advanced materials based on their learning in the 7th grade.
In practice, it doesn't work that way, because curricula are myopic, because teachers don't care/only care about their fiefdom, because students lack any motivation, etc, etc, etc.
Escalante saw all of this and said: OK, let's fix this.
Let's start the program early (cumulative).
Let's tell kids that this is their way out/their ticket to self-actualization (motivation).
Let's make sure the right teachers are on the job (handpicked teachers who care).
Throwing a kid into a calculus class to challenge him when all he's done is geometry is a surefire way to turn a kid off.
This happened to me: they threw me into AP physics because I did well in other classes, but I had yet to take precalc, trig, or calculus.
That experience turned me off to physics for a long time.
I barely scraped by with a D, and I was one of the motivated ones (I won the high school science fair that year, for building a circuit that 'amplified' signals using stochastic resonance).
Guess how motivated I was after that failure.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690454</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690552</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>asolidvoid</author>
	<datestamp>1270062240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm not very familiar with how a voucher system would work, so let me know if I'm off base, but in your example&mdash;wouldn't it still keep him from providing adequate service to underprivileged hispanic youth, since he's so good at what he does&mdash;everyone in LA would want their kids to be taught by him, diluting his impact on the community that needs it (and presumably he would have wanted to serve) most?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not very familiar with how a voucher system would work , so let me know if I 'm off base , but in your example    would n't it still keep him from providing adequate service to underprivileged hispanic youth , since he 's so good at what he does    everyone in LA would want their kids to be taught by him , diluting his impact on the community that needs it ( and presumably he would have wanted to serve ) most ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not very familiar with how a voucher system would work, so let me know if I'm off base, but in your example—wouldn't it still keep him from providing adequate service to underprivileged hispanic youth, since he's so good at what he does—everyone in LA would want their kids to be taught by him, diluting his impact on the community that needs it (and presumably he would have wanted to serve) most?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692940</id>
	<title>Re:To hell with those who won't better themselves.</title>
	<author>dwiget001</author>
	<datestamp>1270027980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree.</p><p>For the most part, in my experience of teaching 12 year olds and older English as a Second Language students their computer basics (like learning the binary number system and similar things) any one can learn, where the person teaching them cares enough to ensure they get the material and can use it.</p><p>For the most part, this doesn't happen in most of the schooling I received, with the few exceptions of a math and biology teacher. Those two teachers worked very hard to ensure all their students could at least think with the information being imparted, even working with the ones that were lagging to help them get caught up and with the rest of the class. More teachers should be like them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree.For the most part , in my experience of teaching 12 year olds and older English as a Second Language students their computer basics ( like learning the binary number system and similar things ) any one can learn , where the person teaching them cares enough to ensure they get the material and can use it.For the most part , this does n't happen in most of the schooling I received , with the few exceptions of a math and biology teacher .
Those two teachers worked very hard to ensure all their students could at least think with the information being imparted , even working with the ones that were lagging to help them get caught up and with the rest of the class .
More teachers should be like them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree.For the most part, in my experience of teaching 12 year olds and older English as a Second Language students their computer basics (like learning the binary number system and similar things) any one can learn, where the person teaching them cares enough to ensure they get the material and can use it.For the most part, this doesn't happen in most of the schooling I received, with the few exceptions of a math and biology teacher.
Those two teachers worked very hard to ensure all their students could at least think with the information being imparted, even working with the ones that were lagging to help them get caught up and with the rest of the class.
More teachers should be like them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690230</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31693420</id>
	<title>Re:Rest in peace.</title>
	<author>Grishnakh</author>
	<datestamp>1270029960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why?  He was a terrible public school teacher, from everything I'm reading here.  After all, he went against the conventional way of teaching, went against the teachers' unions, and actually tried to be an effective teacher and help kids learn advanced topics they otherwise wouldn't.  That is completely against the way public school teachers are supposed to work.  We don't send our children to public school to learn calculus, we send them there to be our babysitters, and to indoctrinate them into being good little worker-bees for the corporations.  We can't be teaching anyone but a select few children advanced topics like Calculus, because once they learn to use their minds for advanced things like that, they might start questioning other things too, and we simply can't have that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why ?
He was a terrible public school teacher , from everything I 'm reading here .
After all , he went against the conventional way of teaching , went against the teachers ' unions , and actually tried to be an effective teacher and help kids learn advanced topics they otherwise would n't .
That is completely against the way public school teachers are supposed to work .
We do n't send our children to public school to learn calculus , we send them there to be our babysitters , and to indoctrinate them into being good little worker-bees for the corporations .
We ca n't be teaching anyone but a select few children advanced topics like Calculus , because once they learn to use their minds for advanced things like that , they might start questioning other things too , and we simply ca n't have that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why?
He was a terrible public school teacher, from everything I'm reading here.
After all, he went against the conventional way of teaching, went against the teachers' unions, and actually tried to be an effective teacher and help kids learn advanced topics they otherwise wouldn't.
That is completely against the way public school teachers are supposed to work.
We don't send our children to public school to learn calculus, we send them there to be our babysitters, and to indoctrinate them into being good little worker-bees for the corporations.
We can't be teaching anyone but a select few children advanced topics like Calculus, because once they learn to use their minds for advanced things like that, they might start questioning other things too, and we simply can't have that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31689990</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692002</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>dfenstrate</author>
	<datestamp>1270067940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Chiefly because exposing school systems to a competitive market implicitly accepts that some schools will fall into even worse decay that they currently are. Poor schools become poorer, with little funding to hire better teachers or acquire better books.</p><p>As schools are not objects which can house an infinite number of students, some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral - schools that are not only sub-par, but lacking funding and interaction with a diverse body of students, since all the brightest have made it into the "nice" schools.</p></div></blockquote><p>I don't see why anyone would object to the ultimate destruction of schools that just plain can't hack it.</p><p>Incidentally, there are a number of voucher-funded schools out there that take any student who is willing to subscribe to their program- not just the best and the brightest, but the marginal students as well.</p><p>Since those schools have to work to keep the students- even the slower ones- there, these students also excel (relatively speaking) in a competitive school market.</p><p>Face it. Public schools that don't have competition have fewer reasons to deliver educated students than public schools that must basically justify their existence every year.</p><p>How many people in your workplace would (or do) slack off continually when there is no pressure to deliver results? Do you really want your children educated in the same fashion?</p><p>The best public schools exist in cities with high parental involvement in the students education and the school board. The residents of poorer districts may not become this involved for a variety of reasons, but even they can spend an hour a year deciding if their child should really keep going to that particular school.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Chiefly because exposing school systems to a competitive market implicitly accepts that some schools will fall into even worse decay that they currently are .
Poor schools become poorer , with little funding to hire better teachers or acquire better books.As schools are not objects which can house an infinite number of students , some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral - schools that are not only sub-par , but lacking funding and interaction with a diverse body of students , since all the brightest have made it into the " nice " schools.I do n't see why anyone would object to the ultimate destruction of schools that just plain ca n't hack it.Incidentally , there are a number of voucher-funded schools out there that take any student who is willing to subscribe to their program- not just the best and the brightest , but the marginal students as well.Since those schools have to work to keep the students- even the slower ones- there , these students also excel ( relatively speaking ) in a competitive school market.Face it .
Public schools that do n't have competition have fewer reasons to deliver educated students than public schools that must basically justify their existence every year.How many people in your workplace would ( or do ) slack off continually when there is no pressure to deliver results ?
Do you really want your children educated in the same fashion ? The best public schools exist in cities with high parental involvement in the students education and the school board .
The residents of poorer districts may not become this involved for a variety of reasons , but even they can spend an hour a year deciding if their child should really keep going to that particular school .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Chiefly because exposing school systems to a competitive market implicitly accepts that some schools will fall into even worse decay that they currently are.
Poor schools become poorer, with little funding to hire better teachers or acquire better books.As schools are not objects which can house an infinite number of students, some students will be forced to attend those schools caught in that downward spiral - schools that are not only sub-par, but lacking funding and interaction with a diverse body of students, since all the brightest have made it into the "nice" schools.I don't see why anyone would object to the ultimate destruction of schools that just plain can't hack it.Incidentally, there are a number of voucher-funded schools out there that take any student who is willing to subscribe to their program- not just the best and the brightest, but the marginal students as well.Since those schools have to work to keep the students- even the slower ones- there, these students also excel (relatively speaking) in a competitive school market.Face it.
Public schools that don't have competition have fewer reasons to deliver educated students than public schools that must basically justify their existence every year.How many people in your workplace would (or do) slack off continually when there is no pressure to deliver results?
Do you really want your children educated in the same fashion?The best public schools exist in cities with high parental involvement in the students education and the school board.
The residents of poorer districts may not become this involved for a variety of reasons, but even they can spend an hour a year deciding if their child should really keep going to that particular school.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690468</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690488</id>
	<title>Re:Rest in peace.</title>
	<author>Maximum Prophet</author>
	<datestamp>1270062000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is from the Washington Post article:<p><nobr> <wbr></nobr></p><div class="quote"><p>... In retirement, he divided his time between California and Bolivia, where he complained that several schools were named after him but had given him no money for the rights.</p></div><p>One reason why they usually wait until someone dies to name something after the person.
<br> <br>
As an aside, Purdue University was named after John Purdue, and not only did the state of Indiana not pay him anything for the name, he had to bequeath many acres of land to get them to put his name on it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is from the Washington Post article : ... In retirement , he divided his time between California and Bolivia , where he complained that several schools were named after him but had given him no money for the rights.One reason why they usually wait until someone dies to name something after the person .
As an aside , Purdue University was named after John Purdue , and not only did the state of Indiana not pay him anything for the name , he had to bequeath many acres of land to get them to put his name on it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is from the Washington Post article: ... In retirement, he divided his time between California and Bolivia, where he complained that several schools were named after him but had given him no money for the rights.One reason why they usually wait until someone dies to name something after the person.
As an aside, Purdue University was named after John Purdue, and not only did the state of Indiana not pay him anything for the name, he had to bequeath many acres of land to get them to put his name on it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31689990</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692048</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>Atanamis</author>
	<datestamp>1270068120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most large monopolies only get that way through government coercion, or at the very least cooperation. The large railways were chosen by exclusive government contracts. The large telcos also held exclusive government contracts. Microsoft gained its power by ignoring government rules. The problem is that the "owning class" will always evade or control any rules placed on the market. The "little guy" lacks the resources to do so. Patant law is a good example of this. It is designed to prevent corporations from stealing ideas from the little guy so that he will bring them to market. In reality, they have ended up as a weapon used to prevent the little guy from competing. Government SHOULD prevent fraud and coercion. When it tries to do more though, it often ends up as just the weapon of the owning class against the little guys. A corporation can never force me to pay for their product if I don't want it. Only government can do that. A tax on blank CDs is about as blatant as this can get. The little guy doesn't benefit from imposed fees like that, only the large producer's who benefit whether we want their product or not. Who do you think benefits from the complexity of our tax code? It isn't the little guy. Complexity benefits those who have more money to buy experts. That's who is normally helped by big government.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most large monopolies only get that way through government coercion , or at the very least cooperation .
The large railways were chosen by exclusive government contracts .
The large telcos also held exclusive government contracts .
Microsoft gained its power by ignoring government rules .
The problem is that the " owning class " will always evade or control any rules placed on the market .
The " little guy " lacks the resources to do so .
Patant law is a good example of this .
It is designed to prevent corporations from stealing ideas from the little guy so that he will bring them to market .
In reality , they have ended up as a weapon used to prevent the little guy from competing .
Government SHOULD prevent fraud and coercion .
When it tries to do more though , it often ends up as just the weapon of the owning class against the little guys .
A corporation can never force me to pay for their product if I do n't want it .
Only government can do that .
A tax on blank CDs is about as blatant as this can get .
The little guy does n't benefit from imposed fees like that , only the large producer 's who benefit whether we want their product or not .
Who do you think benefits from the complexity of our tax code ?
It is n't the little guy .
Complexity benefits those who have more money to buy experts .
That 's who is normally helped by big government .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most large monopolies only get that way through government coercion, or at the very least cooperation.
The large railways were chosen by exclusive government contracts.
The large telcos also held exclusive government contracts.
Microsoft gained its power by ignoring government rules.
The problem is that the "owning class" will always evade or control any rules placed on the market.
The "little guy" lacks the resources to do so.
Patant law is a good example of this.
It is designed to prevent corporations from stealing ideas from the little guy so that he will bring them to market.
In reality, they have ended up as a weapon used to prevent the little guy from competing.
Government SHOULD prevent fraud and coercion.
When it tries to do more though, it often ends up as just the weapon of the owning class against the little guys.
A corporation can never force me to pay for their product if I don't want it.
Only government can do that.
A tax on blank CDs is about as blatant as this can get.
The little guy doesn't benefit from imposed fees like that, only the large producer's who benefit whether we want their product or not.
Who do you think benefits from the complexity of our tax code?
It isn't the little guy.
Complexity benefits those who have more money to buy experts.
That's who is normally helped by big government.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690392</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690014</id>
	<title>To hell with those who won't better themselves.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270060080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To hell with those people who won't voluntarily better themselves.</p><p>If you don't continually strive to do better on your own, then that's your problem and you should be shunned by everyone who can take a little bit of initiative and learn things on their own.</p><p>Like this incident shows, the issue in this case, and many others, isn't about the people being stupid. It's about them just not caring enough about themselves to improve their situation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To hell with those people who wo n't voluntarily better themselves.If you do n't continually strive to do better on your own , then that 's your problem and you should be shunned by everyone who can take a little bit of initiative and learn things on their own.Like this incident shows , the issue in this case , and many others , is n't about the people being stupid .
It 's about them just not caring enough about themselves to improve their situation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To hell with those people who won't voluntarily better themselves.If you don't continually strive to do better on your own, then that's your problem and you should be shunned by everyone who can take a little bit of initiative and learn things on their own.Like this incident shows, the issue in this case, and many others, isn't about the people being stupid.
It's about them just not caring enough about themselves to improve their situation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690982</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270063920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is that 'school voucher' is nothing but a right-wing code word for subsidized religious education.  I don't want my tax dollars funding the evangelical Christian equivalent of an Islamic madrassa.  I want students to learn about actual science, and not the fairy tale-based version that school voucher funded religious schools would teach.</p><p>On the other hand, teacher's unions are doing way more harm than good when it comes to providing quality eduction.  Strong teacher accountability (with real consequences for failing to perform) is the solution to the problem, not paying for kids to learn science from the Bible.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is that 'school voucher ' is nothing but a right-wing code word for subsidized religious education .
I do n't want my tax dollars funding the evangelical Christian equivalent of an Islamic madrassa .
I want students to learn about actual science , and not the fairy tale-based version that school voucher funded religious schools would teach.On the other hand , teacher 's unions are doing way more harm than good when it comes to providing quality eduction .
Strong teacher accountability ( with real consequences for failing to perform ) is the solution to the problem , not paying for kids to learn science from the Bible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is that 'school voucher' is nothing but a right-wing code word for subsidized religious education.
I don't want my tax dollars funding the evangelical Christian equivalent of an Islamic madrassa.
I want students to learn about actual science, and not the fairy tale-based version that school voucher funded religious schools would teach.On the other hand, teacher's unions are doing way more harm than good when it comes to providing quality eduction.
Strong teacher accountability (with real consequences for failing to perform) is the solution to the problem, not paying for kids to learn science from the Bible.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691082</id>
	<title>Re:Public schools</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270064220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It's no wonder he got lots of resistance against his peers, administration and teachers union. Public schools are not about education, its about creating dumbed down automatons who are easily controlled.</p><p> <a href="http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/" title="deliberate...ngdown.com" rel="nofollow">"I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers."</a> [deliberate...ngdown.com] - John D. Rockefeller</p></div><p>Yes, that's what really goes on in the halls of power of public schools. Public school officials are totally the loyal minions of the wealthy elite, and care deeply that their beloved masters have a vast lower class of morons to exploit when the kids grow up in 10 or 20 years.</p><p>"Or maybe the system just sucks and you're a hippie conspiracy-mongering idiot." --Me</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's no wonder he got lots of resistance against his peers , administration and teachers union .
Public schools are not about education , its about creating dumbed down automatons who are easily controlled .
" I do n't want a nation of thinkers , I want a nation of workers .
" [ deliberate...ngdown.com ] - John D. RockefellerYes , that 's what really goes on in the halls of power of public schools .
Public school officials are totally the loyal minions of the wealthy elite , and care deeply that their beloved masters have a vast lower class of morons to exploit when the kids grow up in 10 or 20 years .
" Or maybe the system just sucks and you 're a hippie conspiracy-mongering idiot .
" --Me</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's no wonder he got lots of resistance against his peers, administration and teachers union.
Public schools are not about education, its about creating dumbed down automatons who are easily controlled.
"I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers.
" [deliberate...ngdown.com] - John D. RockefellerYes, that's what really goes on in the halls of power of public schools.
Public school officials are totally the loyal minions of the wealthy elite, and care deeply that their beloved masters have a vast lower class of morons to exploit when the kids grow up in 10 or 20 years.
"Or maybe the system just sucks and you're a hippie conspiracy-mongering idiot.
" --Me
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690078</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691630</id>
	<title>Re:Shining Example</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270066500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Source?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Source ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Source?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690380</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692006</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>schon</author>
	<datestamp>1270068000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And yet the schools in the rest of the developed world, which (pretty much universally) have better-educated students, seem to have bypassed these problems.</p><p>I wonder why that is?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And yet the schools in the rest of the developed world , which ( pretty much universally ) have better-educated students , seem to have bypassed these problems.I wonder why that is ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And yet the schools in the rest of the developed world, which (pretty much universally) have better-educated students, seem to have bypassed these problems.I wonder why that is?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690468</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690478</id>
	<title>Re:Why I still think we need vouchers</title>
	<author>MindlessAutomata</author>
	<datestamp>1270061940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's ultimately about controlling the ideas that youth are exposed to.  Sure, children may be sent to some pretty wrong-headed schools with these vouchers... but the parents, and eventually the child, presumably are taxpayers.</p><p>It's all about social control.  The left is concerned (rightfully) about children being taught anti-evolution, racist, religious bullshit, but it's more than that.  It's about instilling social, democratic values into youth.  The right tends to feel that vouchers/homeschooling are a good way to shaping youth, the left, as always prefers to "socialize" (in the "society") sense of the word and wants to build a "community" and by extension obedience to community standards and norms, even if they have to force community's down people's throat like the right wants to force religion on other people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's ultimately about controlling the ideas that youth are exposed to .
Sure , children may be sent to some pretty wrong-headed schools with these vouchers... but the parents , and eventually the child , presumably are taxpayers.It 's all about social control .
The left is concerned ( rightfully ) about children being taught anti-evolution , racist , religious bullshit , but it 's more than that .
It 's about instilling social , democratic values into youth .
The right tends to feel that vouchers/homeschooling are a good way to shaping youth , the left , as always prefers to " socialize " ( in the " society " ) sense of the word and wants to build a " community " and by extension obedience to community standards and norms , even if they have to force community 's down people 's throat like the right wants to force religion on other people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's ultimately about controlling the ideas that youth are exposed to.
Sure, children may be sent to some pretty wrong-headed schools with these vouchers... but the parents, and eventually the child, presumably are taxpayers.It's all about social control.
The left is concerned (rightfully) about children being taught anti-evolution, racist, religious bullshit, but it's more than that.
It's about instilling social, democratic values into youth.
The right tends to feel that vouchers/homeschooling are a good way to shaping youth, the left, as always prefers to "socialize" (in the "society") sense of the word and wants to build a "community" and by extension obedience to community standards and norms, even if they have to force community's down people's throat like the right wants to force religion on other people.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690454</id>
	<title>Re:Rest in peace.</title>
	<author>Moryath</author>
	<datestamp>1270061880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>They should name schools after people like him.</i></p><p>Sure, whatever. Name whatever you want.</p><p>What they REALLY should do is stop dumbing down the curriculum and "passing" ever-crappier performance, and follow the methods he used (no more excuses, no more "but it's hard why should I learn" bullcrap). Set the bar high and the kids will reach for it, set the bar low and kids will nap.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They should name schools after people like him.Sure , whatever .
Name whatever you want.What they REALLY should do is stop dumbing down the curriculum and " passing " ever-crappier performance , and follow the methods he used ( no more excuses , no more " but it 's hard why should I learn " bullcrap ) .
Set the bar high and the kids will reach for it , set the bar low and kids will nap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They should name schools after people like him.Sure, whatever.
Name whatever you want.What they REALLY should do is stop dumbing down the curriculum and "passing" ever-crappier performance, and follow the methods he used (no more excuses, no more "but it's hard why should I learn" bullcrap).
Set the bar high and the kids will reach for it, set the bar low and kids will nap.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31689990</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690144</id>
	<title>Jesse Jackson was wrong</title>
	<author>BadAnalogyGuy</author>
	<datestamp>1270060500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>East Los Angeles, not New York, was the real Jaime-town.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>East Los Angeles , not New York , was the real Jaime-town .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>East Los Angeles, not New York, was the real Jaime-town.</sentencetext>
</comment>
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--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692940
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31693122
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690826
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690234
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691226
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31693978
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31694592
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	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690142
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690380
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692598
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691630
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690492
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691524
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692452
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<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_31_1718250.5</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690204
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_31_1718250.3</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31689974
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690034
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690856
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31693954
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31691500
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690540
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690152
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690516
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692026
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690424
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31692858
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690730
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_31_1718250.31690296
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