<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_28_0429217</id>
	<title>Security Holes Found In "Smart" Meters</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1269778260000</datestamp>
	<htmltext><a href="http://hughpickens.com/slashdot/" rel="nofollow">Hugh Pickens</a> writes <i>"In the US alone, more than 8 million smart meters, designed to help deliver electricity more efficiently and to measure power consumption in real time, have been deployed by electric utilities and nearly 60 million should be in place by 2020. Now the Associated Press reports that <a href="http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hql6AnzfBz5qKiOrGArkxuVbN6eAD9EMFLGG0">smart meters have security flaws that could let hackers tamper with the power grid</a>, opening the door for attackers to jack up strangers' power bills, remotely turn someone else's power on and off, or even allow attackers to get into the utilities' computer networks to steal data or stage bigger attacks on the grid. Attacks could be pulled off by stealing meters &mdash; which can be situated outside of a home &mdash; and reprogramming them, or an attacker could sit near a home or business and wirelessly hack the meter from a laptop, according to Joshua Wright, a senior security analyst with InGuardians Inc, a vendor-independent consultant that performs penetration tests and security risk assessments."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hugh Pickens writes " In the US alone , more than 8 million smart meters , designed to help deliver electricity more efficiently and to measure power consumption in real time , have been deployed by electric utilities and nearly 60 million should be in place by 2020 .
Now the Associated Press reports that smart meters have security flaws that could let hackers tamper with the power grid , opening the door for attackers to jack up strangers ' power bills , remotely turn someone else 's power on and off , or even allow attackers to get into the utilities ' computer networks to steal data or stage bigger attacks on the grid .
Attacks could be pulled off by stealing meters    which can be situated outside of a home    and reprogramming them , or an attacker could sit near a home or business and wirelessly hack the meter from a laptop , according to Joshua Wright , a senior security analyst with InGuardians Inc , a vendor-independent consultant that performs penetration tests and security risk assessments .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hugh Pickens writes "In the US alone, more than 8 million smart meters, designed to help deliver electricity more efficiently and to measure power consumption in real time, have been deployed by electric utilities and nearly 60 million should be in place by 2020.
Now the Associated Press reports that smart meters have security flaws that could let hackers tamper with the power grid, opening the door for attackers to jack up strangers' power bills, remotely turn someone else's power on and off, or even allow attackers to get into the utilities' computer networks to steal data or stage bigger attacks on the grid.
Attacks could be pulled off by stealing meters — which can be situated outside of a home — and reprogramming them, or an attacker could sit near a home or business and wirelessly hack the meter from a laptop, according to Joshua Wright, a senior security analyst with InGuardians Inc, a vendor-independent consultant that performs penetration tests and security risk assessments.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31662818</id>
	<title>Re:why?</title>
	<author>Cramer</author>
	<datestamp>1269859560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For the same (lame) reason many cable companies have begged (and been granted) wavers for broadcast station encryption... elimination of a truck roll.  They can shut off service with the click of a mouse instead of sending a person out to physically disconnect lines.  And conversely, to enable service with a single click.</p><p>The power measurement parts of the meter can indeed fail without effecting power supply.  I'm not sure how they handle the "on/off" part; most homes are fed with a rather high amperage making the use of a traditional relay unwise.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For the same ( lame ) reason many cable companies have begged ( and been granted ) wavers for broadcast station encryption... elimination of a truck roll .
They can shut off service with the click of a mouse instead of sending a person out to physically disconnect lines .
And conversely , to enable service with a single click.The power measurement parts of the meter can indeed fail without effecting power supply .
I 'm not sure how they handle the " on/off " part ; most homes are fed with a rather high amperage making the use of a traditional relay unwise .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For the same (lame) reason many cable companies have begged (and been granted) wavers for broadcast station encryption... elimination of a truck roll.
They can shut off service with the click of a mouse instead of sending a person out to physically disconnect lines.
And conversely, to enable service with a single click.The power measurement parts of the meter can indeed fail without effecting power supply.
I'm not sure how they handle the "on/off" part; most homes are fed with a rather high amperage making the use of a traditional relay unwise.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647132</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646532</id>
	<title>Security holes found...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269781860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And this is a big surprise?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And this is a big surprise ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And this is a big surprise?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31657430</id>
	<title>Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter'</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269878640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The IR pulses are there for the taking...  Usually on the face as part of the optical port (ANSI C12.18-2005), or on the top curved portion for some manufacturers.  Just mount an IR photo-transistor (in an enclosure that provides sufficient shielding from sunlight) in front of the meter's IR LED, feed the output into a comparator to clean up the pulses - then count the pulses with a PIC, Arduino, etc.  Most meters in the 150 - 200 amp residential range are 1 pulse per watt/hr, although some use the old standard carried over from the mechanical cyclometer-type meters of 1 pulse per 7.2 watt/hrs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The IR pulses are there for the taking... Usually on the face as part of the optical port ( ANSI C12.18-2005 ) , or on the top curved portion for some manufacturers .
Just mount an IR photo-transistor ( in an enclosure that provides sufficient shielding from sunlight ) in front of the meter 's IR LED , feed the output into a comparator to clean up the pulses - then count the pulses with a PIC , Arduino , etc .
Most meters in the 150 - 200 amp residential range are 1 pulse per watt/hr , although some use the old standard carried over from the mechanical cyclometer-type meters of 1 pulse per 7.2 watt/hrs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The IR pulses are there for the taking...  Usually on the face as part of the optical port (ANSI C12.18-2005), or on the top curved portion for some manufacturers.
Just mount an IR photo-transistor (in an enclosure that provides sufficient shielding from sunlight) in front of the meter's IR LED, feed the output into a comparator to clean up the pulses - then count the pulses with a PIC, Arduino, etc.
Most meters in the 150 - 200 amp residential range are 1 pulse per watt/hr, although some use the old standard carried over from the mechanical cyclometer-type meters of 1 pulse per 7.2 watt/hrs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646586</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646776</id>
	<title>Re:Completely useless</title>
	<author>JaredOfEuropa</author>
	<datestamp>1269786060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No benefit?  These things allow the power company to balance the grid load and "pass the savings on to you", as they say.
<br> <br>
When I was in college, some 20 years ago, our home had a water boiler with a "smart" meter connected to it.  The meter wasn't very smart and certainly not computerised, but it did allow the power company to switch on our boiler when they had some excess power capacity to get rid of.  It was strictly opt-in (the boiler could be switched to manual), but if we used it we always had warm water at about 1/3rd of what it would have cost us at regular energy rates.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No benefit ?
These things allow the power company to balance the grid load and " pass the savings on to you " , as they say .
When I was in college , some 20 years ago , our home had a water boiler with a " smart " meter connected to it .
The meter was n't very smart and certainly not computerised , but it did allow the power company to switch on our boiler when they had some excess power capacity to get rid of .
It was strictly opt-in ( the boiler could be switched to manual ) , but if we used it we always had warm water at about 1/3rd of what it would have cost us at regular energy rates .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No benefit?
These things allow the power company to balance the grid load and "pass the savings on to you", as they say.
When I was in college, some 20 years ago, our home had a water boiler with a "smart" meter connected to it.
The meter wasn't very smart and certainly not computerised, but it did allow the power company to switch on our boiler when they had some excess power capacity to get rid of.
It was strictly opt-in (the boiler could be switched to manual), but if we used it we always had warm water at about 1/3rd of what it would have cost us at regular energy rates.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31655086</id>
	<title>Re:why?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269863880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Remote Disable is obviously a useful feature for Edison &amp; Co. - I am more puzzled as to:</p><p>"..the vulnerabilities open the door for attackers to jack up strangers' power bills.."</p><p>- like, who the fuck turns their meter on and off to control device power usage - bit extreme, no?  In my world, most users have fridges/freezers, things that are usually best left on, if you did want to kill the mains, you do so via trip fuse - love to see how that can be hacked.  The only way you can increase a bill by hack would be if the rate was set at the meter - and anyone who has that "feature" deserves to be hacked.</p><p>If you dont have it running, it cannot use juice - I fail to see any circumstances whatsoever here where you can possibly *increase* someones electricity bill - normal people do not turn their meter on when they wake up, nor should they be able to.</p><p>A disconnect hack is another matter altogether, Warm &amp; Sour Milk Time<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-) - how that does anything other than saving you cash tho, I do not know.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Remote Disable is obviously a useful feature for Edison &amp; Co. - I am more puzzled as to : " ..the vulnerabilities open the door for attackers to jack up strangers ' power bills.. " - like , who the fuck turns their meter on and off to control device power usage - bit extreme , no ?
In my world , most users have fridges/freezers , things that are usually best left on , if you did want to kill the mains , you do so via trip fuse - love to see how that can be hacked .
The only way you can increase a bill by hack would be if the rate was set at the meter - and anyone who has that " feature " deserves to be hacked.If you dont have it running , it can not use juice - I fail to see any circumstances whatsoever here where you can possibly * increase * someones electricity bill - normal people do not turn their meter on when they wake up , nor should they be able to.A disconnect hack is another matter altogether , Warm &amp; Sour Milk Time ; - ) - how that does anything other than saving you cash tho , I do not know .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Remote Disable is obviously a useful feature for Edison &amp; Co. - I am more puzzled as to:"..the vulnerabilities open the door for attackers to jack up strangers' power bills.."- like, who the fuck turns their meter on and off to control device power usage - bit extreme, no?
In my world, most users have fridges/freezers, things that are usually best left on, if you did want to kill the mains, you do so via trip fuse - love to see how that can be hacked.
The only way you can increase a bill by hack would be if the rate was set at the meter - and anyone who has that "feature" deserves to be hacked.If you dont have it running, it cannot use juice - I fail to see any circumstances whatsoever here where you can possibly *increase* someones electricity bill - normal people do not turn their meter on when they wake up, nor should they be able to.A disconnect hack is another matter altogether, Warm &amp; Sour Milk Time ;-) - how that does anything other than saving you cash tho, I do not know.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647132</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31649016</id>
	<title>Mike Davis / IOactive research</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269804300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Mike Davis with ioactive has done some in depth research, see http://www.ioactive.com/services/smart-grid-research.html</p><p>Check out the videos of worm propogation, really cool stuff. He actually wrote the attack vector and worm for his blackhat preso, I think you can get slides off that site.</p><p>There is also a webcast, if you are actually interested I would check it out.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Mike Davis with ioactive has done some in depth research , see http : //www.ioactive.com/services/smart-grid-research.htmlCheck out the videos of worm propogation , really cool stuff .
He actually wrote the attack vector and worm for his blackhat preso , I think you can get slides off that site.There is also a webcast , if you are actually interested I would check it out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mike Davis with ioactive has done some in depth research, see http://www.ioactive.com/services/smart-grid-research.htmlCheck out the videos of worm propogation, really cool stuff.
He actually wrote the attack vector and worm for his blackhat preso, I think you can get slides off that site.There is also a webcast, if you are actually interested I would check it out.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646788</id>
	<title>Re:Completely useless</title>
	<author>flyingfsck</author>
	<datestamp>1269786300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"spin it backwards 24/7".</p><p>So, uhmmm, why are you complaining?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" spin it backwards 24/7 " .So , uhmmm , why are you complaining ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"spin it backwards 24/7".So, uhmmm, why are you complaining?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646578</id>
	<title>Normally, I wouldnt recomend this...</title>
	<author>Tepshen</author>
	<datestamp>1269782580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>...but there really should be a minimum security standard for infrastructure items like any city's power grid (or voting machines, or traffic systems, or water supplies, or any number of things you dont want folks monkeying with). Its really insane to hear about this considering how power stations and utilities are tightly regulated. It doesnt matter that the system is only open on the far end of the line because eventually someone will mess with it and show just why its a bad idea. Either make the system secure or dont make them so accessable.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...but there really should be a minimum security standard for infrastructure items like any city 's power grid ( or voting machines , or traffic systems , or water supplies , or any number of things you dont want folks monkeying with ) .
Its really insane to hear about this considering how power stations and utilities are tightly regulated .
It doesnt matter that the system is only open on the far end of the line because eventually someone will mess with it and show just why its a bad idea .
Either make the system secure or dont make them so accessable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...but there really should be a minimum security standard for infrastructure items like any city's power grid (or voting machines, or traffic systems, or water supplies, or any number of things you dont want folks monkeying with).
Its really insane to hear about this considering how power stations and utilities are tightly regulated.
It doesnt matter that the system is only open on the far end of the line because eventually someone will mess with it and show just why its a bad idea.
Either make the system secure or dont make them so accessable.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31657718</id>
	<title>A lot of misinformation here.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269879780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am an engineer that designs smart grid transponders, and there is a lot of misinformation.</p><p>The present:<br>1.) Utilities and Meter Manufacturers are extremely paranoid about people altering their electrical bill. If someone can hack the system, then the Utility will lose a Massive amount of money. As such, the codes to change meter tables are kept very secret, and even meter transponder manufacturers aren't given the code.<br>
&nbsp; - If you can alter the meter map, your product will not be qualified to work with a meter.<br>
&nbsp; - If your hardware modifies the electrical usage in any way, (decreased accuracy or modifying the table reads), your product will not be inserted into the meter<br>
&nbsp; - If someone does hack a system, the amount of money required to resolve the issue is tremendous. You have upset customers, government regulations, and meter technicians that cost a lot of money.<br>
&nbsp; - A utility will spend YEARS researching AMR/AMI systems before installing them. This is not a fly-by-night industry. You MUST have a solid reputation for reliable hardware in order to stay alive.<br>
&nbsp; - You Don't need additional government regulation. There is enough financial incentive to keep us scared shitless of creating a flawed product.</p><p>2.) The new front IR port can be used to access meter information, but you must have a very specific security code to read anything, let alone write. Even then, it varies between utilities. Even the transponder manufacturers don't have access to the write codes.</p><p>3.) Older front IR ports just sent a pulse every time there was a count, allowing some third-party transponders access to the count.</p><p>4.) The two-way systems have integrated disconnects, which allows the power to be connected/disconnected with a simple phone call. You just move into your house? Call the utility and you can have power in less than 5 minutes. You don't pay your bill? You get disconnected. You pay your bill? Reconnected instantly.</p><p>5.) The future:<br>The Smart Grid stimulus is causing havoc. People are assuming fast connections that can carry the internet (Most AMI systems stay below 10Kbps). Sure, we could provide 1Mbps to each house, but it would cause everyone's electrical bill to go up $50/month. As such, AMI systems are low data rate and low cost to give the smallest customer impact possible.</p><p>Utilities want an hourly read to make sure their system is properly responding to the load demands. The "Green" people want meter information every 5 minutes, and so Utilities are requesting 5 minute reads. It is not the Government, it is this "green" movement that wants 5 minute reads. (I could write forever about the Green Smart Grid, but I will leave that for another day)</p><p><div class="quote"><p>The trouble with "smart meters" and the "smart grid" is that it's too easy to put in excess functionality that can cause trouble.</p></div><p>First, the "Smart Grid" is not defined. You can't buy a "Smart Grid" compatible piece of hardware. It does not exist. You cannot create trouble because you don't have access to the protocol or interface hardware.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Anyone found any similar useful hacks with them newfangled radio water meters?</p></div><p>Those are transmit only. They have a battery inside and transmit to a collector unit every 12 hours.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>With meters which do more than metering, that's just not good enough. Significant effort must be made to prevent malicious people from surreptitiously turning power off, otherwise assholes will do it just for lols. It's not like ripping a meter off the wall, which will have the same effect but carries high likelyhood of getting caught.</p></div><p>This is a secondary issue. The real problem is if someone figures out how to hack the system to connect their own meter. AMI systems are VERY concerned about this.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>but there really should be a minimum security standard for infrastructure items like any city's power grid (or voting machines, or traffic systems, or water supplies, or any number of things you dont want folks monkeying with). Its really insane to hear about this considering how power stations and utilities are tightly regulated. It doesnt matter that the system is only open on the far end of the line because eventually someone will mess with it and show just why its a bad idea. Either make the system secure or dont make them so accessable.</p></div><p> Completely ignorant. Every transmission is encrypted. It is very difficult to interface with the system. The system is pretty darn secure and it is very difficult to access. We don't pretend that our system is completely secure, but we assume that everyone wants free electricity and will do anything to get it. Our job is to make sure you are properly billed for your electrical usage.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Where do you see the government involved here? As far as I understood the article those meters are to be distributed by the utilities, and those (at least in California) are privately owned.</p></div><p> All utilities are government regulated, and some are government run. From what I have seen, Co-ops are the best (cost control, system quality, and customer service). The government run utilities are next, and the bottom of the barrel include investor owned utilities.</p><p>Now you may wonder why an article like this is coming out now. There are multiple vendors trying to become the Security Standard for the Smart Grid. These systems are closed, licensed technologies and focus on security through obscurity. The transponder companies want an open standard that is secure for being secure. The IEEE committees are deciding on the standards for the Smart Grid, and security is on everyone's mind. More fear means greater pull by the private companies.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am an engineer that designs smart grid transponders , and there is a lot of misinformation.The present : 1 .
) Utilities and Meter Manufacturers are extremely paranoid about people altering their electrical bill .
If someone can hack the system , then the Utility will lose a Massive amount of money .
As such , the codes to change meter tables are kept very secret , and even meter transponder manufacturers are n't given the code .
  - If you can alter the meter map , your product will not be qualified to work with a meter .
  - If your hardware modifies the electrical usage in any way , ( decreased accuracy or modifying the table reads ) , your product will not be inserted into the meter   - If someone does hack a system , the amount of money required to resolve the issue is tremendous .
You have upset customers , government regulations , and meter technicians that cost a lot of money .
  - A utility will spend YEARS researching AMR/AMI systems before installing them .
This is not a fly-by-night industry .
You MUST have a solid reputation for reliable hardware in order to stay alive .
  - You Do n't need additional government regulation .
There is enough financial incentive to keep us scared shitless of creating a flawed product.2 .
) The new front IR port can be used to access meter information , but you must have a very specific security code to read anything , let alone write .
Even then , it varies between utilities .
Even the transponder manufacturers do n't have access to the write codes.3 .
) Older front IR ports just sent a pulse every time there was a count , allowing some third-party transponders access to the count.4 .
) The two-way systems have integrated disconnects , which allows the power to be connected/disconnected with a simple phone call .
You just move into your house ?
Call the utility and you can have power in less than 5 minutes .
You do n't pay your bill ?
You get disconnected .
You pay your bill ?
Reconnected instantly.5 .
) The future : The Smart Grid stimulus is causing havoc .
People are assuming fast connections that can carry the internet ( Most AMI systems stay below 10Kbps ) .
Sure , we could provide 1Mbps to each house , but it would cause everyone 's electrical bill to go up $ 50/month .
As such , AMI systems are low data rate and low cost to give the smallest customer impact possible.Utilities want an hourly read to make sure their system is properly responding to the load demands .
The " Green " people want meter information every 5 minutes , and so Utilities are requesting 5 minute reads .
It is not the Government , it is this " green " movement that wants 5 minute reads .
( I could write forever about the Green Smart Grid , but I will leave that for another day ) The trouble with " smart meters " and the " smart grid " is that it 's too easy to put in excess functionality that can cause trouble.First , the " Smart Grid " is not defined .
You ca n't buy a " Smart Grid " compatible piece of hardware .
It does not exist .
You can not create trouble because you do n't have access to the protocol or interface hardware.Anyone found any similar useful hacks with them newfangled radio water meters ? Those are transmit only .
They have a battery inside and transmit to a collector unit every 12 hours.With meters which do more than metering , that 's just not good enough .
Significant effort must be made to prevent malicious people from surreptitiously turning power off , otherwise assholes will do it just for lols .
It 's not like ripping a meter off the wall , which will have the same effect but carries high likelyhood of getting caught.This is a secondary issue .
The real problem is if someone figures out how to hack the system to connect their own meter .
AMI systems are VERY concerned about this.but there really should be a minimum security standard for infrastructure items like any city 's power grid ( or voting machines , or traffic systems , or water supplies , or any number of things you dont want folks monkeying with ) .
Its really insane to hear about this considering how power stations and utilities are tightly regulated .
It doesnt matter that the system is only open on the far end of the line because eventually someone will mess with it and show just why its a bad idea .
Either make the system secure or dont make them so accessable .
Completely ignorant .
Every transmission is encrypted .
It is very difficult to interface with the system .
The system is pretty darn secure and it is very difficult to access .
We do n't pretend that our system is completely secure , but we assume that everyone wants free electricity and will do anything to get it .
Our job is to make sure you are properly billed for your electrical usage.Where do you see the government involved here ?
As far as I understood the article those meters are to be distributed by the utilities , and those ( at least in California ) are privately owned .
All utilities are government regulated , and some are government run .
From what I have seen , Co-ops are the best ( cost control , system quality , and customer service ) .
The government run utilities are next , and the bottom of the barrel include investor owned utilities.Now you may wonder why an article like this is coming out now .
There are multiple vendors trying to become the Security Standard for the Smart Grid .
These systems are closed , licensed technologies and focus on security through obscurity .
The transponder companies want an open standard that is secure for being secure .
The IEEE committees are deciding on the standards for the Smart Grid , and security is on everyone 's mind .
More fear means greater pull by the private companies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am an engineer that designs smart grid transponders, and there is a lot of misinformation.The present:1.
) Utilities and Meter Manufacturers are extremely paranoid about people altering their electrical bill.
If someone can hack the system, then the Utility will lose a Massive amount of money.
As such, the codes to change meter tables are kept very secret, and even meter transponder manufacturers aren't given the code.
  - If you can alter the meter map, your product will not be qualified to work with a meter.
  - If your hardware modifies the electrical usage in any way, (decreased accuracy or modifying the table reads), your product will not be inserted into the meter
  - If someone does hack a system, the amount of money required to resolve the issue is tremendous.
You have upset customers, government regulations, and meter technicians that cost a lot of money.
  - A utility will spend YEARS researching AMR/AMI systems before installing them.
This is not a fly-by-night industry.
You MUST have a solid reputation for reliable hardware in order to stay alive.
  - You Don't need additional government regulation.
There is enough financial incentive to keep us scared shitless of creating a flawed product.2.
) The new front IR port can be used to access meter information, but you must have a very specific security code to read anything, let alone write.
Even then, it varies between utilities.
Even the transponder manufacturers don't have access to the write codes.3.
) Older front IR ports just sent a pulse every time there was a count, allowing some third-party transponders access to the count.4.
) The two-way systems have integrated disconnects, which allows the power to be connected/disconnected with a simple phone call.
You just move into your house?
Call the utility and you can have power in less than 5 minutes.
You don't pay your bill?
You get disconnected.
You pay your bill?
Reconnected instantly.5.
) The future:The Smart Grid stimulus is causing havoc.
People are assuming fast connections that can carry the internet (Most AMI systems stay below 10Kbps).
Sure, we could provide 1Mbps to each house, but it would cause everyone's electrical bill to go up $50/month.
As such, AMI systems are low data rate and low cost to give the smallest customer impact possible.Utilities want an hourly read to make sure their system is properly responding to the load demands.
The "Green" people want meter information every 5 minutes, and so Utilities are requesting 5 minute reads.
It is not the Government, it is this "green" movement that wants 5 minute reads.
(I could write forever about the Green Smart Grid, but I will leave that for another day)The trouble with "smart meters" and the "smart grid" is that it's too easy to put in excess functionality that can cause trouble.First, the "Smart Grid" is not defined.
You can't buy a "Smart Grid" compatible piece of hardware.
It does not exist.
You cannot create trouble because you don't have access to the protocol or interface hardware.Anyone found any similar useful hacks with them newfangled radio water meters?Those are transmit only.
They have a battery inside and transmit to a collector unit every 12 hours.With meters which do more than metering, that's just not good enough.
Significant effort must be made to prevent malicious people from surreptitiously turning power off, otherwise assholes will do it just for lols.
It's not like ripping a meter off the wall, which will have the same effect but carries high likelyhood of getting caught.This is a secondary issue.
The real problem is if someone figures out how to hack the system to connect their own meter.
AMI systems are VERY concerned about this.but there really should be a minimum security standard for infrastructure items like any city's power grid (or voting machines, or traffic systems, or water supplies, or any number of things you dont want folks monkeying with).
Its really insane to hear about this considering how power stations and utilities are tightly regulated.
It doesnt matter that the system is only open on the far end of the line because eventually someone will mess with it and show just why its a bad idea.
Either make the system secure or dont make them so accessable.
Completely ignorant.
Every transmission is encrypted.
It is very difficult to interface with the system.
The system is pretty darn secure and it is very difficult to access.
We don't pretend that our system is completely secure, but we assume that everyone wants free electricity and will do anything to get it.
Our job is to make sure you are properly billed for your electrical usage.Where do you see the government involved here?
As far as I understood the article those meters are to be distributed by the utilities, and those (at least in California) are privately owned.
All utilities are government regulated, and some are government run.
From what I have seen, Co-ops are the best (cost control, system quality, and customer service).
The government run utilities are next, and the bottom of the barrel include investor owned utilities.Now you may wonder why an article like this is coming out now.
There are multiple vendors trying to become the Security Standard for the Smart Grid.
These systems are closed, licensed technologies and focus on security through obscurity.
The transponder companies want an open standard that is secure for being secure.
The IEEE committees are deciding on the standards for the Smart Grid, and security is on everyone's mind.
More fear means greater pull by the private companies.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646554</id>
	<title>Same same but different</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269782280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>opening the door for attackers to jack up strangers' power bills, remotely turn someone else's power on and off,</p></div> </blockquote><p>While this is bad, this is the same situation as with the old, traditional meters.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>opening the door for attackers to jack up strangers ' power bills , remotely turn someone else 's power on and off , While this is bad , this is the same situation as with the old , traditional meters .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>opening the door for attackers to jack up strangers' power bills, remotely turn someone else's power on and off, While this is bad, this is the same situation as with the old, traditional meters.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647084</id>
	<title>Re:Why aren't these things read-only?</title>
	<author>Sollord</author>
	<datestamp>1269790020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It has little to do with turning on or off the primary circuit to a house but a lot of homes int eh US have interrupter circuits on there central air units which they pay a lower rate on cause it lets the power company shut it down during high demand to reduce the chances of a brown out or something</htmltext>
<tokenext>It has little to do with turning on or off the primary circuit to a house but a lot of homes int eh US have interrupter circuits on there central air units which they pay a lower rate on cause it lets the power company shut it down during high demand to reduce the chances of a brown out or something</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It has little to do with turning on or off the primary circuit to a house but a lot of homes int eh US have interrupter circuits on there central air units which they pay a lower rate on cause it lets the power company shut it down during high demand to reduce the chances of a brown out or something</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646690</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646568</id>
	<title>Re:Security holes found...</title>
	<author>RAMMS+EIN</author>
	<datestamp>1269782520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was about to write a similar post.</p><p>Although this is certainly bad, it doesn't surprise me at all.</p><p>And the fact that we've come to \_expect\_ such vulnerabilities in widely deployed systems is very, very sad.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was about to write a similar post.Although this is certainly bad , it does n't surprise me at all.And the fact that we 've come to \ _expect \ _ such vulnerabilities in widely deployed systems is very , very sad .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was about to write a similar post.Although this is certainly bad, it doesn't surprise me at all.And the fact that we've come to \_expect\_ such vulnerabilities in widely deployed systems is very, very sad.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646532</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646722</id>
	<title>Re:Why aren't these things read-only?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269785040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Simple, they want to be able to turn off your line, if you don't pay.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Simple , they want to be able to turn off your line , if you do n't pay .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Simple, they want to be able to turn off your line, if you don't pay.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646690</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647580</id>
	<title>More FUD and shoddy security analysis</title>
	<author>tark.dom</author>
	<datestamp>1269794040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Great, first it was IOActive frothing non-stop about smart meters, now we have Inguardians turning the froth up to 11. This whole smart grid security issue never addresses the probability of an attacker actually being able to carry out a serious attack in real life. The PDF talks about theoretical attacks. It describes possible weaknesses. It does not assign any probability or likelihood to those attacks. As such, this is faulty and misleading security work. Its the kind of FUD "security gurus" resort to when they want to scare people into buying their services. Notice that the PDF makes sure to advise users to buy services like pentesting and code review - which of course an Inguardians sales representative can sell you.

Any decent security analysis MUST include consideration of probability.  Risk (the most basic measure of security) is comprised of both impact and probability. Sure, breaking into a smart meter could be a catastrophic thing, thus a very high "impact" rating.  However, if the probability of doing that in the wild is enormously low. Something like 0.000000001\%.  Then the risk of this actually happening is therefore very low.

Until one of these &ldquo;researchers&rdquo; shows the real risks involved here, and not a bunch of theoretical and conceptual data, I remain unconvinced that there are serious problems with smart meters.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Great , first it was IOActive frothing non-stop about smart meters , now we have Inguardians turning the froth up to 11 .
This whole smart grid security issue never addresses the probability of an attacker actually being able to carry out a serious attack in real life .
The PDF talks about theoretical attacks .
It describes possible weaknesses .
It does not assign any probability or likelihood to those attacks .
As such , this is faulty and misleading security work .
Its the kind of FUD " security gurus " resort to when they want to scare people into buying their services .
Notice that the PDF makes sure to advise users to buy services like pentesting and code review - which of course an Inguardians sales representative can sell you .
Any decent security analysis MUST include consideration of probability .
Risk ( the most basic measure of security ) is comprised of both impact and probability .
Sure , breaking into a smart meter could be a catastrophic thing , thus a very high " impact " rating .
However , if the probability of doing that in the wild is enormously low .
Something like 0.000000001 \ % .
Then the risk of this actually happening is therefore very low .
Until one of these    researchers    shows the real risks involved here , and not a bunch of theoretical and conceptual data , I remain unconvinced that there are serious problems with smart meters .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Great, first it was IOActive frothing non-stop about smart meters, now we have Inguardians turning the froth up to 11.
This whole smart grid security issue never addresses the probability of an attacker actually being able to carry out a serious attack in real life.
The PDF talks about theoretical attacks.
It describes possible weaknesses.
It does not assign any probability or likelihood to those attacks.
As such, this is faulty and misleading security work.
Its the kind of FUD "security gurus" resort to when they want to scare people into buying their services.
Notice that the PDF makes sure to advise users to buy services like pentesting and code review - which of course an Inguardians sales representative can sell you.
Any decent security analysis MUST include consideration of probability.
Risk (the most basic measure of security) is comprised of both impact and probability.
Sure, breaking into a smart meter could be a catastrophic thing, thus a very high "impact" rating.
However, if the probability of doing that in the wild is enormously low.
Something like 0.000000001\%.
Then the risk of this actually happening is therefore very low.
Until one of these “researchers” shows the real risks involved here, and not a bunch of theoretical and conceptual data, I remain unconvinced that there are serious problems with smart meters.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646548</id>
	<title>What I want to know</title>
	<author>For a Free Internet</author>
	<datestamp>1269782160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>is why electricity costs money. It is just electrons, which are everywhere. If there weren't electrons, we would all be living on a neutron star like Pluto where everything is a sick off-white color and people talk really slowly becuse they are strtched into string beans and they don't have any electrical energies in their metabalisims. But somehow we are supposed to pay for this? Somebody is evil and somebody is Italian here.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>is why electricity costs money .
It is just electrons , which are everywhere .
If there were n't electrons , we would all be living on a neutron star like Pluto where everything is a sick off-white color and people talk really slowly becuse they are strtched into string beans and they do n't have any electrical energies in their metabalisims .
But somehow we are supposed to pay for this ?
Somebody is evil and somebody is Italian here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>is why electricity costs money.
It is just electrons, which are everywhere.
If there weren't electrons, we would all be living on a neutron star like Pluto where everything is a sick off-white color and people talk really slowly becuse they are strtched into string beans and they don't have any electrical energies in their metabalisims.
But somehow we are supposed to pay for this?
Somebody is evil and somebody is Italian here.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31651590</id>
	<title>with apologies to Peter Graves</title>
	<author>davek</author>
	<datestamp>1269779940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>we have a new vector, victor!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>we have a new vector , victor !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>we have a new vector, victor!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31650666</id>
	<title>Re:What about water meters?</title>
	<author>osgeek</author>
	<datestamp>1269773400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Water and gas meter technologies lag behind electric meters because of the simple fact that water and gas meters aren't hooked up to power... so they require long-life batteries to be functional.  Since they're on battery, lots of frills are eliminated, like the ability to receive transmissions.</p><p>Most deployed water and gas meters these days are transmit only.  There are some coming to market that will listen too, but the corresponding limited functionality will make hacking into them much harder.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Water and gas meter technologies lag behind electric meters because of the simple fact that water and gas meters are n't hooked up to power... so they require long-life batteries to be functional .
Since they 're on battery , lots of frills are eliminated , like the ability to receive transmissions.Most deployed water and gas meters these days are transmit only .
There are some coming to market that will listen too , but the corresponding limited functionality will make hacking into them much harder .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Water and gas meter technologies lag behind electric meters because of the simple fact that water and gas meters aren't hooked up to power... so they require long-life batteries to be functional.
Since they're on battery, lots of frills are eliminated, like the ability to receive transmissions.Most deployed water and gas meters these days are transmit only.
There are some coming to market that will listen too, but the corresponding limited functionality will make hacking into them much harder.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648888</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646796</id>
	<title>Smart meter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269786420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So would that be 39.37 smart inches?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So would that be 39.37 smart inches ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So would that be 39.37 smart inches?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646754</id>
	<title>Re:What I want to know</title>
	<author>K. S. Kyosuke</author>
	<datestamp>1269785640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Is why electricity costs money. It is just electrons, which are everywhere.</p></div><p>You're not paying for the electrons, you're paying for the non-conservative fields propelling them around.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is why electricity costs money .
It is just electrons , which are everywhere.You 're not paying for the electrons , you 're paying for the non-conservative fields propelling them around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is why electricity costs money.
It is just electrons, which are everywhere.You're not paying for the electrons, you're paying for the non-conservative fields propelling them around.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646548</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647190</id>
	<title>Re:Security holes found...</title>
	<author>poetmatt</author>
	<datestamp>1269790860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Smart meters rely on (among other things) - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIPS\_140" title="wikipedia.org">FIPS.</a> [wikipedia.org] Clearly the wrong level of it. Meanwhile, even FIPS isn't that reliable.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/I just started to do work involving the stuff<nobr> <wbr></nobr>//FIPS is in basically everything in the US</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Smart meters rely on ( among other things ) - FIPS .
[ wikipedia.org ] Clearly the wrong level of it .
Meanwhile , even FIPS is n't that reliable .
/I just started to do work involving the stuff //FIPS is in basically everything in the US</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Smart meters rely on (among other things) - FIPS.
[wikipedia.org] Clearly the wrong level of it.
Meanwhile, even FIPS isn't that reliable.
/I just started to do work involving the stuff //FIPS is in basically everything in the US</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646532</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31774362</id>
	<title>Re:I Smell A Rat</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270733940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They've recently put out a public statement that might clear up some of this.  Looks to me like somebody doesn't understand how to talk to the press.</p><p>http://www.inguardians.com/pubs/20100401\_AP\_Article.pdf</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They 've recently put out a public statement that might clear up some of this .
Looks to me like somebody does n't understand how to talk to the press.http : //www.inguardians.com/pubs/20100401 \ _AP \ _Article.pdf</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They've recently put out a public statement that might clear up some of this.
Looks to me like somebody doesn't understand how to talk to the press.http://www.inguardians.com/pubs/20100401\_AP\_Article.pdf</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647844</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646738</id>
	<title>Re:Completely useless</title>
	<author>vlm</author>
	<datestamp>1269785280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>build some fake solar cells and windmills on the roof</p></div><p>Building fake gadgets by hand one piece at a time, might be more expensive than buying a real one.</p><p>Most of the money in panels is in the assembly labor, the glass, the backer, waterproofing, the mounting brackets... If you're going to all that trouble, may as well stick some cells in there.  Even making convincing fake cells to encapsulate into the panel is going to be tough.</p><p>On the other hand, an inverter is quite expensive and no one sees it...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>build some fake solar cells and windmills on the roofBuilding fake gadgets by hand one piece at a time , might be more expensive than buying a real one.Most of the money in panels is in the assembly labor , the glass , the backer , waterproofing , the mounting brackets... If you 're going to all that trouble , may as well stick some cells in there .
Even making convincing fake cells to encapsulate into the panel is going to be tough.On the other hand , an inverter is quite expensive and no one sees it.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>build some fake solar cells and windmills on the roofBuilding fake gadgets by hand one piece at a time, might be more expensive than buying a real one.Most of the money in panels is in the assembly labor, the glass, the backer, waterproofing, the mounting brackets... If you're going to all that trouble, may as well stick some cells in there.
Even making convincing fake cells to encapsulate into the panel is going to be tough.On the other hand, an inverter is quite expensive and no one sees it...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648346</id>
	<title>Re:What I want to know</title>
	<author>Shark</author>
	<datestamp>1269799800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Heck, you can take mine too, if you can carry it.</p></div><p>Dear WrongSizeGlass,</p><p>Can we move one of our data-centres next to your house?</p><p>Sincerely,<br>Eric Schmidt</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Heck , you can take mine too , if you can carry it.Dear WrongSizeGlass,Can we move one of our data-centres next to your house ? Sincerely,Eric Schmidt</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Heck, you can take mine too, if you can carry it.Dear WrongSizeGlass,Can we move one of our data-centres next to your house?Sincerely,Eric Schmidt
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646668</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648650</id>
	<title>Re:why?</title>
	<author>Animats</author>
	<datestamp>1269801900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
<i>why is it physically possible for anyone to remotely turn power on and off?</i>
</p><p>
To make customers pay their bill.
</p><p>
(Remember Mr. Burns doing this on the Simpsons?  Now it's real. Excellent!)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>why is it physically possible for anyone to remotely turn power on and off ?
To make customers pay their bill .
( Remember Mr. Burns doing this on the Simpsons ?
Now it 's real .
Excellent ! )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
why is it physically possible for anyone to remotely turn power on and off?
To make customers pay their bill.
(Remember Mr. Burns doing this on the Simpsons?
Now it's real.
Excellent!)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647132</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31649148</id>
	<title>How do I know if I am using a smart meter or not?</title>
	<author>antdude</author>
	<datestamp>1269805140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This place is from the 70s, so I assume it is a not a smart type?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This place is from the 70s , so I assume it is a not a smart type ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This place is from the 70s, so I assume it is a not a smart type?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647054</id>
	<title>This is Not News..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269789660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Vulnerabilities were identified in the smart meters last year, see http://earth2tech.com/2009/07/31/smart-meter-worm-could-spread-like-a-virus/</p><p>The vendors for the vulnerable meters have since patched the buffer overflow used to propagate this worm, but they don't have a way to patch the meters already installed; the power companies aren't exactly storming Ma and Pa Kettles around the grid, replacing their meters.  It is a safe bet that there are other overflows, lurking in the dusty corners -- hardware vendors still believe that obscurity is all the protection they need, and the government does not know how to force the issue without seizing control of private enterprise.</p><p>As for the grid being regulated? Hah.  The CIPS regulations can be condensed down to "Okay, tell us you have a plan.  And, from here on, adhere to that plan.  We trust you to know what a good plan is, because we sure as hell don't know."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Vulnerabilities were identified in the smart meters last year , see http : //earth2tech.com/2009/07/31/smart-meter-worm-could-spread-like-a-virus/The vendors for the vulnerable meters have since patched the buffer overflow used to propagate this worm , but they do n't have a way to patch the meters already installed ; the power companies are n't exactly storming Ma and Pa Kettles around the grid , replacing their meters .
It is a safe bet that there are other overflows , lurking in the dusty corners -- hardware vendors still believe that obscurity is all the protection they need , and the government does not know how to force the issue without seizing control of private enterprise.As for the grid being regulated ?
Hah. The CIPS regulations can be condensed down to " Okay , tell us you have a plan .
And , from here on , adhere to that plan .
We trust you to know what a good plan is , because we sure as hell do n't know .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Vulnerabilities were identified in the smart meters last year, see http://earth2tech.com/2009/07/31/smart-meter-worm-could-spread-like-a-virus/The vendors for the vulnerable meters have since patched the buffer overflow used to propagate this worm, but they don't have a way to patch the meters already installed; the power companies aren't exactly storming Ma and Pa Kettles around the grid, replacing their meters.
It is a safe bet that there are other overflows, lurking in the dusty corners -- hardware vendors still believe that obscurity is all the protection they need, and the government does not know how to force the issue without seizing control of private enterprise.As for the grid being regulated?
Hah.  The CIPS regulations can be condensed down to "Okay, tell us you have a plan.
And, from here on, adhere to that plan.
We trust you to know what a good plan is, because we sure as hell don't know.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647344</id>
	<title>Re:Very meticulous methodology report...</title>
	<author>bbernard</author>
	<datestamp>1269792000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One of the beauties of finding a vulnerability and doing the reverse engineering is that, once it's been done once, you can create tools to take advantage of it.  (Exhibit A: Metasploit) So the skill required to determine the vulnerabilities is quite high, while the skill to use them later is quite low.</p><p>Beyond ease of exploitation, let's think about the possible uses.  The goal of smart meters is two fold:  providing both you and the utility real-time info about your electrical use.  The second goal is to be able to control and adjust your use based on this info. This will incorporate the ability to shut down your AC for periods of time, as well as appliances like your refrigerator, washer, and dryer.  (Seriously, this is the "end goal" of these things)</p><p>Having that data available is a problem.  As a person with malicious intent, don't you think I can rather easily determine when you're home and when you're away based on your electrical usage?  How about making assumptions about the juicy items you have in your home to rip off based on your electrical usage?  (more engery used probably means more cool stuff to take, right?)</p><p>Having the ability to now affect your electrical usage is a problem too, right?  If I can shut down your power remotely, can't I at least piss you off?  Worst case, couldn't I possibly harm someone in your household?  If I can manipulate the meter to claim that you're using more energy than you really are, could I cause you financial hardship?</p><p>So I think the ramifications here are pretty significant.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One of the beauties of finding a vulnerability and doing the reverse engineering is that , once it 's been done once , you can create tools to take advantage of it .
( Exhibit A : Metasploit ) So the skill required to determine the vulnerabilities is quite high , while the skill to use them later is quite low.Beyond ease of exploitation , let 's think about the possible uses .
The goal of smart meters is two fold : providing both you and the utility real-time info about your electrical use .
The second goal is to be able to control and adjust your use based on this info .
This will incorporate the ability to shut down your AC for periods of time , as well as appliances like your refrigerator , washer , and dryer .
( Seriously , this is the " end goal " of these things ) Having that data available is a problem .
As a person with malicious intent , do n't you think I can rather easily determine when you 're home and when you 're away based on your electrical usage ?
How about making assumptions about the juicy items you have in your home to rip off based on your electrical usage ?
( more engery used probably means more cool stuff to take , right ?
) Having the ability to now affect your electrical usage is a problem too , right ?
If I can shut down your power remotely , ca n't I at least piss you off ?
Worst case , could n't I possibly harm someone in your household ?
If I can manipulate the meter to claim that you 're using more energy than you really are , could I cause you financial hardship ? So I think the ramifications here are pretty significant .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One of the beauties of finding a vulnerability and doing the reverse engineering is that, once it's been done once, you can create tools to take advantage of it.
(Exhibit A: Metasploit) So the skill required to determine the vulnerabilities is quite high, while the skill to use them later is quite low.Beyond ease of exploitation, let's think about the possible uses.
The goal of smart meters is two fold:  providing both you and the utility real-time info about your electrical use.
The second goal is to be able to control and adjust your use based on this info.
This will incorporate the ability to shut down your AC for periods of time, as well as appliances like your refrigerator, washer, and dryer.
(Seriously, this is the "end goal" of these things)Having that data available is a problem.
As a person with malicious intent, don't you think I can rather easily determine when you're home and when you're away based on your electrical usage?
How about making assumptions about the juicy items you have in your home to rip off based on your electrical usage?
(more engery used probably means more cool stuff to take, right?
)Having the ability to now affect your electrical usage is a problem too, right?
If I can shut down your power remotely, can't I at least piss you off?
Worst case, couldn't I possibly harm someone in your household?
If I can manipulate the meter to claim that you're using more energy than you really are, could I cause you financial hardship?So I think the ramifications here are pretty significant.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647068</id>
	<title>Re:Security holes found...</title>
	<author>flyneye</author>
	<datestamp>1269789840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think the big surprise to me is that all you have to do to get attention on this subject is point out obvious flaws in anything.<br>For instance, we'll just change things a bit and dress this story up a bit:</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In the U.S. alone there are more than 8million smart meters. However there are even more cars which could be used to disrupt the powergrid.<br>It has been found that cars are easily hacked, stolen and could be used to fill with explosives, set a brick on the pedal and send it hurtling into major power stations.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In the U.S. alone there are more than 8 million smart meters.However there are several electrical service trucks filled with equipment,materials, manuals and tools that could facilitate hacking the powergrid. It could be done by a hoodlum or an employee with a chip on their shoulder and Allah in their heart.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In the U.S. alone there are more than 8 million smart metres. However this could all be rendered useless by a power company who wish to pad their profits by reprogramming them to steal directly from our direct draft accounts by substituting a number representing a larger amount of electricity consumed by a homeowner.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Now you tell me what is the more likely picture here. Now where do I sign up to receive remuneration for finding obvious security flaws?</p><p>I've somehow lost my fascination for articles like this. Seems they're just a pay fodder hack for writers to get one by an ignorant editor.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the big surprise to me is that all you have to do to get attention on this subject is point out obvious flaws in anything.For instance , we 'll just change things a bit and dress this story up a bit :         In the U.S. alone there are more than 8million smart meters .
However there are even more cars which could be used to disrupt the powergrid.It has been found that cars are easily hacked , stolen and could be used to fill with explosives , set a brick on the pedal and send it hurtling into major power stations .
        In the U.S. alone there are more than 8 million smart meters.However there are several electrical service trucks filled with equipment,materials , manuals and tools that could facilitate hacking the powergrid .
It could be done by a hoodlum or an employee with a chip on their shoulder and Allah in their heart .
          In the U.S. alone there are more than 8 million smart metres .
However this could all be rendered useless by a power company who wish to pad their profits by reprogramming them to steal directly from our direct draft accounts by substituting a number representing a larger amount of electricity consumed by a homeowner .
      Now you tell me what is the more likely picture here .
Now where do I sign up to receive remuneration for finding obvious security flaws ? I 've somehow lost my fascination for articles like this .
Seems they 're just a pay fodder hack for writers to get one by an ignorant editor .
         </tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the big surprise to me is that all you have to do to get attention on this subject is point out obvious flaws in anything.For instance, we'll just change things a bit and dress this story up a bit:
        In the U.S. alone there are more than 8million smart meters.
However there are even more cars which could be used to disrupt the powergrid.It has been found that cars are easily hacked, stolen and could be used to fill with explosives, set a brick on the pedal and send it hurtling into major power stations.
        In the U.S. alone there are more than 8 million smart meters.However there are several electrical service trucks filled with equipment,materials, manuals and tools that could facilitate hacking the powergrid.
It could be done by a hoodlum or an employee with a chip on their shoulder and Allah in their heart.
          In the U.S. alone there are more than 8 million smart metres.
However this could all be rendered useless by a power company who wish to pad their profits by reprogramming them to steal directly from our direct draft accounts by substituting a number representing a larger amount of electricity consumed by a homeowner.
      Now you tell me what is the more likely picture here.
Now where do I sign up to receive remuneration for finding obvious security flaws?I've somehow lost my fascination for articles like this.
Seems they're just a pay fodder hack for writers to get one by an ignorant editor.
         </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646532</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647244</id>
	<title>Re:What I want to know</title>
	<author>feepness</author>
	<datestamp>1269791220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Yes, yes, I know it's an inaccurate oversimplification<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... just think of it as a metaphor.</p></div><p>Can you rephrase that in the form of a car analogy?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , yes , I know it 's an inaccurate oversimplification ... just think of it as a metaphor.Can you rephrase that in the form of a car analogy ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, yes, I know it's an inaccurate oversimplification ... just think of it as a metaphor.Can you rephrase that in the form of a car analogy?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646668</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647638</id>
	<title>Now I can use my severs to war dial and not pay fo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269794460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Now I can use my severs to war dial and not pay for the power that will be a nice way to match my free phone bill that I used to call all the numbers in sunny ville ca.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Now I can use my severs to war dial and not pay for the power that will be a nice way to match my free phone bill that I used to call all the numbers in sunny ville ca .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now I can use my severs to war dial and not pay for the power that will be a nice way to match my free phone bill that I used to call all the numbers in sunny ville ca.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647624</id>
	<title>Re:Why aren't these things read-only?</title>
	<author>budgenator</author>
	<datestamp>1269794400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think the idea is for the utility to be able to talk to your meter, to set peak and off-peak rates, adjust when peak and off-peak times are and to be able to do it in real time. This would be much preferable to brown-out and rolling black-outs we get in response to grid emergencies today. Eventually your appliances would be able to query the meter and respond in a reasonable manner. For example I might decide when at normal peak to have the AC set for 74, high peak 78 and emergency to shutoff completely. In an emergency I might have the electric range oven shut off if the freezer needs to turn on and the computer go into hibernate after 5 minutes of inactivity. Being able to do stuff like this could mean millions in saving for both the utilities and consumer each year but also reduces the intolerance for  insecurities to the system.<br>Some have propose having electric cars and hybrids being able to negotiate with the electric utilities on whether to charge or not and to even be able to sell back electricity at a profit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the idea is for the utility to be able to talk to your meter , to set peak and off-peak rates , adjust when peak and off-peak times are and to be able to do it in real time .
This would be much preferable to brown-out and rolling black-outs we get in response to grid emergencies today .
Eventually your appliances would be able to query the meter and respond in a reasonable manner .
For example I might decide when at normal peak to have the AC set for 74 , high peak 78 and emergency to shutoff completely .
In an emergency I might have the electric range oven shut off if the freezer needs to turn on and the computer go into hibernate after 5 minutes of inactivity .
Being able to do stuff like this could mean millions in saving for both the utilities and consumer each year but also reduces the intolerance for insecurities to the system.Some have propose having electric cars and hybrids being able to negotiate with the electric utilities on whether to charge or not and to even be able to sell back electricity at a profit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the idea is for the utility to be able to talk to your meter, to set peak and off-peak rates, adjust when peak and off-peak times are and to be able to do it in real time.
This would be much preferable to brown-out and rolling black-outs we get in response to grid emergencies today.
Eventually your appliances would be able to query the meter and respond in a reasonable manner.
For example I might decide when at normal peak to have the AC set for 74, high peak 78 and emergency to shutoff completely.
In an emergency I might have the electric range oven shut off if the freezer needs to turn on and the computer go into hibernate after 5 minutes of inactivity.
Being able to do stuff like this could mean millions in saving for both the utilities and consumer each year but also reduces the intolerance for  insecurities to the system.Some have propose having electric cars and hybrids being able to negotiate with the electric utilities on whether to charge or not and to even be able to sell back electricity at a profit.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646690</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646668</id>
	<title>Re:What I want to know</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269784260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>is why electricity costs money. It is just electrons, which are everywhere. </p></div><p>Electricity <b>is</b> free, it's the packaging and delivery that costs money. Just like water that comes out of the faucet, or comes in a plastic bottle, it's the <i>getting it to you</i> part that is expensive. Yes, yes, I know it's an inaccurate oversimplification<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... just think of it as a metaphor.<br> <br>
Feel free to use all the free electricity (or water) that you can grab and take home. Heck, you can take mine too, if you can carry it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>is why electricity costs money .
It is just electrons , which are everywhere .
Electricity is free , it 's the packaging and delivery that costs money .
Just like water that comes out of the faucet , or comes in a plastic bottle , it 's the getting it to you part that is expensive .
Yes , yes , I know it 's an inaccurate oversimplification ... just think of it as a metaphor .
Feel free to use all the free electricity ( or water ) that you can grab and take home .
Heck , you can take mine too , if you can carry it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>is why electricity costs money.
It is just electrons, which are everywhere.
Electricity is free, it's the packaging and delivery that costs money.
Just like water that comes out of the faucet, or comes in a plastic bottle, it's the getting it to you part that is expensive.
Yes, yes, I know it's an inaccurate oversimplification ... just think of it as a metaphor.
Feel free to use all the free electricity (or water) that you can grab and take home.
Heck, you can take mine too, if you can carry it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646548</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648168</id>
	<title>Re:What I want to know</title>
	<author>Sir\_Lewk</author>
	<datestamp>1269798360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Cars <b>are</b> free, it's just the making and selling of them that costs you money.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Cars are free , it 's just the making and selling of them that costs you money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cars are free, it's just the making and selling of them that costs you money.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647526</id>
	<title>we're safe</title>
	<author>Krau Ming</author>
	<datestamp>1269793560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>if hackers cut the power off, then how will they continue to hack???</htmltext>
<tokenext>if hackers cut the power off , then how will they continue to hack ? ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if hackers cut the power off, then how will they continue to hack??
?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31655428</id>
	<title>Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter'</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269868200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The IR port pulses with power consumption. The number of pulses per kWh, in smart meters is programmable.</p><p>Also, in smart meters, the IR port acts as a serial port and all information stored inside can be read through the port. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI\_C12.18</p><p>Depending on the meter, there is a wealth of information stored. It depends on the type of meter an it's configuration. On the meter I designed there is over 8k of configuration data and something like 192k of data storage possible.</p><p>The meter can be configured with a password. But often, sending a simple ASCII I will return the meter name and serial number.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The IR port pulses with power consumption .
The number of pulses per kWh , in smart meters is programmable.Also , in smart meters , the IR port acts as a serial port and all information stored inside can be read through the port .
See http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI \ _C12.18Depending on the meter , there is a wealth of information stored .
It depends on the type of meter an it 's configuration .
On the meter I designed there is over 8k of configuration data and something like 192k of data storage possible.The meter can be configured with a password .
But often , sending a simple ASCII I will return the meter name and serial number .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The IR port pulses with power consumption.
The number of pulses per kWh, in smart meters is programmable.Also, in smart meters, the IR port acts as a serial port and all information stored inside can be read through the port.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI\_C12.18Depending on the meter, there is a wealth of information stored.
It depends on the type of meter an it's configuration.
On the meter I designed there is over 8k of configuration data and something like 192k of data storage possible.The meter can be configured with a password.
But often, sending a simple ASCII I will return the meter name and serial number.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646586</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647220</id>
	<title>Re:Very meticulous methodology report...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269791100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It seems to me that the authors of the report are likely trying to raise concern about the security of this sort of infrastructure in order to drum up business for their security testing organization. I didn't see much in the way of specific exposures identified, every thing mentioned was theoretical.</p><p>I don't doubt that there are security weaknesses in AMI infrastructure, but speculating about it is hardly news.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It seems to me that the authors of the report are likely trying to raise concern about the security of this sort of infrastructure in order to drum up business for their security testing organization .
I did n't see much in the way of specific exposures identified , every thing mentioned was theoretical.I do n't doubt that there are security weaknesses in AMI infrastructure , but speculating about it is hardly news .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It seems to me that the authors of the report are likely trying to raise concern about the security of this sort of infrastructure in order to drum up business for their security testing organization.
I didn't see much in the way of specific exposures identified, every thing mentioned was theoretical.I don't doubt that there are security weaknesses in AMI infrastructure, but speculating about it is hardly news.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647066</id>
	<title>Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter'</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269789840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Not really a direct answer to your question, but I use TED-5000 from <a href="http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html" title="theenergydetective.com">http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html</a> [theenergydetective.com]. So far I found a rather precise correlation between data from it and bills from electric company.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Not really a direct answer to your question , but I use TED-5000 from http : //www.theenergydetective.com/index.html [ theenergydetective.com ] .
So far I found a rather precise correlation between data from it and bills from electric company .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not really a direct answer to your question, but I use TED-5000 from http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html [theenergydetective.com].
So far I found a rather precise correlation between data from it and bills from electric company.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646586</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648528</id>
	<title>Re:What I want to know-updated slashdotter analogy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269800940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Think of the kind of girls here that Slashdotters are familiar with:<br><i>Just like girl that comes out of the closet, or comes in a plastic bottle, it's the getting it to you part that is expensive.</i></p><p>You know the kind of girls you have to inflate first or the came out of weird Japanese vending machines.... if you were thinking of something else when you read the above your clearly have a dirty mind!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Think of the kind of girls here that Slashdotters are familiar with : Just like girl that comes out of the closet , or comes in a plastic bottle , it 's the getting it to you part that is expensive.You know the kind of girls you have to inflate first or the came out of weird Japanese vending machines.... if you were thinking of something else when you read the above your clearly have a dirty mind !
; - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Think of the kind of girls here that Slashdotters are familiar with:Just like girl that comes out of the closet, or comes in a plastic bottle, it's the getting it to you part that is expensive.You know the kind of girls you have to inflate first or the came out of weird Japanese vending machines.... if you were thinking of something else when you read the above your clearly have a dirty mind!
;-)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646704</id>
	<title>Very meticulous methodology report...</title>
	<author>Securityemo</author>
	<datestamp>1269784680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've read through both PDFs, and they really go into a lot of detail on the experimental methodology. The main thing they seem to be concerned about (and the only vulnerability they detail) are extracting the encryption keys from the meter firmware ("some" meters) and reverse-engineering the command protocol. While this could be a threat, being able to turn off/manipulate individual home meters isn't going to have any far-ranging effects beyond that. It also, obviously, requires a lot of reverse-engineering skill. I'd be more concerned with someone packaging this into a bluebox-style solution for manipulating your own meter, giving you free power? Earlier in the methodology report they talk about IR ports and similar being unsecured due to the perceived unlikelihood of attacking them, but they don't detail anything about that in the presentation PDF. That would be easier to exploit, though, so they might be keeping a lid on the more critical vulns?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've read through both PDFs , and they really go into a lot of detail on the experimental methodology .
The main thing they seem to be concerned about ( and the only vulnerability they detail ) are extracting the encryption keys from the meter firmware ( " some " meters ) and reverse-engineering the command protocol .
While this could be a threat , being able to turn off/manipulate individual home meters is n't going to have any far-ranging effects beyond that .
It also , obviously , requires a lot of reverse-engineering skill .
I 'd be more concerned with someone packaging this into a bluebox-style solution for manipulating your own meter , giving you free power ?
Earlier in the methodology report they talk about IR ports and similar being unsecured due to the perceived unlikelihood of attacking them , but they do n't detail anything about that in the presentation PDF .
That would be easier to exploit , though , so they might be keeping a lid on the more critical vulns ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've read through both PDFs, and they really go into a lot of detail on the experimental methodology.
The main thing they seem to be concerned about (and the only vulnerability they detail) are extracting the encryption keys from the meter firmware ("some" meters) and reverse-engineering the command protocol.
While this could be a threat, being able to turn off/manipulate individual home meters isn't going to have any far-ranging effects beyond that.
It also, obviously, requires a lot of reverse-engineering skill.
I'd be more concerned with someone packaging this into a bluebox-style solution for manipulating your own meter, giving you free power?
Earlier in the methodology report they talk about IR ports and similar being unsecured due to the perceived unlikelihood of attacking them, but they don't detail anything about that in the presentation PDF.
That would be easier to exploit, though, so they might be keeping a lid on the more critical vulns?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646618</id>
	<title>i'm asthonished</title>
	<author>aBaldrich</author>
	<datestamp>1269783300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Since when a meter needs to have wireless capabilities?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Since when a meter needs to have wireless capabilities ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Since when a meter needs to have wireless capabilities?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646586</id>
	<title>How to interface with a 'smart meter'</title>
	<author>knarf</author>
	<datestamp>1269782760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Let me take this opportunity to dig up my attempt at an 'Ask Slashdot' from more than 3 years ago:</p><p><a href="http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&amp;id=35585" title="slashdot.org">How to monitor your electricity meter</a> [slashdot.org]</p><p>This question was never published and thus never answered. Anyone out there with experience in this field? That IR-interface currently sits on front of the meter doing nothing at all while it would create the possibility to eg. create an accurate power use graph, power quality data - I'm on the far end of a long air cable so that is sometimes an issue - and more interesting things. I guess I'm not the only one interested in these things?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Let me take this opportunity to dig up my attempt at an 'Ask Slashdot ' from more than 3 years ago : How to monitor your electricity meter [ slashdot.org ] This question was never published and thus never answered .
Anyone out there with experience in this field ?
That IR-interface currently sits on front of the meter doing nothing at all while it would create the possibility to eg .
create an accurate power use graph , power quality data - I 'm on the far end of a long air cable so that is sometimes an issue - and more interesting things .
I guess I 'm not the only one interested in these things ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let me take this opportunity to dig up my attempt at an 'Ask Slashdot' from more than 3 years ago:How to monitor your electricity meter [slashdot.org]This question was never published and thus never answered.
Anyone out there with experience in this field?
That IR-interface currently sits on front of the meter doing nothing at all while it would create the possibility to eg.
create an accurate power use graph, power quality data - I'm on the far end of a long air cable so that is sometimes an issue - and more interesting things.
I guess I'm not the only one interested in these things?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646818</id>
	<title>Here...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269786780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My city-run utility company inadvertently drove itself into a political clusterf**k with smart meters. A large bunch of the smart meters were installed in January, then we had an extremely cold February that caused very high bills for some people, and the bills were blamed on the smart meters.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My city-run utility company inadvertently drove itself into a political clusterf * * k with smart meters .
A large bunch of the smart meters were installed in January , then we had an extremely cold February that caused very high bills for some people , and the bills were blamed on the smart meters .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My city-run utility company inadvertently drove itself into a political clusterf**k with smart meters.
A large bunch of the smart meters were installed in January, then we had an extremely cold February that caused very high bills for some people, and the bills were blamed on the smart meters.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31650948</id>
	<title>Re:Why aren't these things read-only?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269774960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I can see the benefit in making meters network-enabled just to prevent having to send someone to read the meter physically, but why would you want to be able to control them remotely?  That doesn't seem like it's worth the risk.  Make the thing read-only, with some standard way of collecting the data - using SNMP or something.</p></div><p>I don't think they <b>can</b> control them remotely.  A mechanical switch that can interrupt 200 Amps at 240 Volts is too big to fit in a standard meter housing, and I believe a similarly rated solid-state switch would be just as unwieldy.  Time-of-day control systems that I'm familiar with require additional switching systems to be installed behind the meter.  Time-of-day metering, of course, allows use at any time.  It just costs less at some times (OK, more at other times)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I can see the benefit in making meters network-enabled just to prevent having to send someone to read the meter physically , but why would you want to be able to control them remotely ?
That does n't seem like it 's worth the risk .
Make the thing read-only , with some standard way of collecting the data - using SNMP or something.I do n't think they can control them remotely .
A mechanical switch that can interrupt 200 Amps at 240 Volts is too big to fit in a standard meter housing , and I believe a similarly rated solid-state switch would be just as unwieldy .
Time-of-day control systems that I 'm familiar with require additional switching systems to be installed behind the meter .
Time-of-day metering , of course , allows use at any time .
It just costs less at some times ( OK , more at other times )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can see the benefit in making meters network-enabled just to prevent having to send someone to read the meter physically, but why would you want to be able to control them remotely?
That doesn't seem like it's worth the risk.
Make the thing read-only, with some standard way of collecting the data - using SNMP or something.I don't think they can control them remotely.
A mechanical switch that can interrupt 200 Amps at 240 Volts is too big to fit in a standard meter housing, and I believe a similarly rated solid-state switch would be just as unwieldy.
Time-of-day control systems that I'm familiar with require additional switching systems to be installed behind the meter.
Time-of-day metering, of course, allows use at any time.
It just costs less at some times (OK, more at other times)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646690</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31663002</id>
	<title>Re:What about water meters?</title>
	<author>Cramer</author>
	<datestamp>1269860460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's in their best interest to detect leaks as quickly as possible.  On both sides of the meter.  Plus, if it hasn't checked in on time, they know something is wrong and can schedule someone to check it.</p><p>And around here, the idiots use industrial water meters for residential service.  The minimum detectable usage is 1 CCF (100 cubic feet) or ~770gal.  My water usage is almost undetectable by such a meter.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's in their best interest to detect leaks as quickly as possible .
On both sides of the meter .
Plus , if it has n't checked in on time , they know something is wrong and can schedule someone to check it.And around here , the idiots use industrial water meters for residential service .
The minimum detectable usage is 1 CCF ( 100 cubic feet ) or ~ 770gal .
My water usage is almost undetectable by such a meter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's in their best interest to detect leaks as quickly as possible.
On both sides of the meter.
Plus, if it hasn't checked in on time, they know something is wrong and can schedule someone to check it.And around here, the idiots use industrial water meters for residential service.
The minimum detectable usage is 1 CCF (100 cubic feet) or ~770gal.
My water usage is almost undetectable by such a meter.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648888</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648888</id>
	<title>What about water meters?</title>
	<author>gsarnold</author>
	<datestamp>1269803340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Anyone found any similar useful hacks with them newfangled radio water meters?</p><p>My city put 'em in last year and this dude comes out to the house to install it and I'm like, "...so this let you drive past the house and pick up the meter reading without coming to the side of the house, right?" And the dude is like, "No. This radios your water usage directly to the central office every twelve hours."</p><p>Every twelve hours.</p><p>I know slashdot makes you paranoid, but this bothers me. I simply cannot imagine how it could be useful to monitoring this frequently when they still bill my usage monthly. Plus, any dude with access to the database can hack together an SQL query to find out which houses have a total water usage under a gallon over the past three days and know who's not home.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Anyone found any similar useful hacks with them newfangled radio water meters ? My city put 'em in last year and this dude comes out to the house to install it and I 'm like , " ...so this let you drive past the house and pick up the meter reading without coming to the side of the house , right ?
" And the dude is like , " No .
This radios your water usage directly to the central office every twelve hours .
" Every twelve hours.I know slashdot makes you paranoid , but this bothers me .
I simply can not imagine how it could be useful to monitoring this frequently when they still bill my usage monthly .
Plus , any dude with access to the database can hack together an SQL query to find out which houses have a total water usage under a gallon over the past three days and know who 's not home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anyone found any similar useful hacks with them newfangled radio water meters?My city put 'em in last year and this dude comes out to the house to install it and I'm like, "...so this let you drive past the house and pick up the meter reading without coming to the side of the house, right?
" And the dude is like, "No.
This radios your water usage directly to the central office every twelve hours.
"Every twelve hours.I know slashdot makes you paranoid, but this bothers me.
I simply cannot imagine how it could be useful to monitoring this frequently when they still bill my usage monthly.
Plus, any dude with access to the database can hack together an SQL query to find out which houses have a total water usage under a gallon over the past three days and know who's not home.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31655206</id>
	<title>Re:What about water meters?</title>
	<author>rwiggers</author>
	<datestamp>1269865380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't know in your locality, but here you can charge back to the water company if you have an invisible leakage. Therefore, they have all the needed incentive to warn you as soon as possible that the consumption is abnormal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know in your locality , but here you can charge back to the water company if you have an invisible leakage .
Therefore , they have all the needed incentive to warn you as soon as possible that the consumption is abnormal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know in your locality, but here you can charge back to the water company if you have an invisible leakage.
Therefore, they have all the needed incentive to warn you as soon as possible that the consumption is abnormal.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648888</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646886</id>
	<title>Re:What I want to know</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269787560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>is why electricity costs money. It is just electrons, which are everywhere. If there weren't electrons, we would all be living on a neutron star like Pluto where everything is a sick off-white color and people talk really slowly becuse they are strtched into string beans and they don't have any electrical energies in their metabalisims. But somehow we are supposed to pay for this? Somebody is evil and somebody is Italian here.</p></div><p>
What I want to know is where can I get some of the drugs you're on.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>is why electricity costs money .
It is just electrons , which are everywhere .
If there were n't electrons , we would all be living on a neutron star like Pluto where everything is a sick off-white color and people talk really slowly becuse they are strtched into string beans and they do n't have any electrical energies in their metabalisims .
But somehow we are supposed to pay for this ?
Somebody is evil and somebody is Italian here .
What I want to know is where can I get some of the drugs you 're on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>is why electricity costs money.
It is just electrons, which are everywhere.
If there weren't electrons, we would all be living on a neutron star like Pluto where everything is a sick off-white color and people talk really slowly becuse they are strtched into string beans and they don't have any electrical energies in their metabalisims.
But somehow we are supposed to pay for this?
Somebody is evil and somebody is Italian here.
What I want to know is where can I get some of the drugs you're on.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646548</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646646</id>
	<title>Re:i'm asthonished</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269783960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To reduce meter readers' labour in walking from meter to meter.  Though I can see the practical use for this feature (e.g. meter in an unidentified building past a path lined with prickly plants) problems which make wireless capabilities a necessity ought to be resolved as well (i.e. do not put meters in obscure locations in the first place).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To reduce meter readers ' labour in walking from meter to meter .
Though I can see the practical use for this feature ( e.g .
meter in an unidentified building past a path lined with prickly plants ) problems which make wireless capabilities a necessity ought to be resolved as well ( i.e .
do not put meters in obscure locations in the first place ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To reduce meter readers' labour in walking from meter to meter.
Though I can see the practical use for this feature (e.g.
meter in an unidentified building past a path lined with prickly plants) problems which make wireless capabilities a necessity ought to be resolved as well (i.e.
do not put meters in obscure locations in the first place).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646618</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31655724</id>
	<title>Turn someones power off. No way!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269870420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can't turn off a houses power remotely, these smart meters don't have interrupting devices in them.</p><p>The only interrupting devices between my power and my neighbors power are my main breaker and their main breaker.</p><p>When the utility turns off someones power they send someone to physically pull the meter.</p><p>You  could build a meter with interrupting capability, but it would cost $$ so utilities aren't going to do it.</p><p>Turning someones meter off (power stays on, it is just not metered) could be possible, but if I could hack a meter, I would be in the business of selling discounts.  I think the utilities might not like this sort of thing, so I am fairly sure they are not going to sit back and let someone eat their lunch.  This whole story is BS.  There are plenty of concerns with cyber security of power networks, residential meters are not really a big deal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You ca n't turn off a houses power remotely , these smart meters do n't have interrupting devices in them.The only interrupting devices between my power and my neighbors power are my main breaker and their main breaker.When the utility turns off someones power they send someone to physically pull the meter.You could build a meter with interrupting capability , but it would cost $ $ so utilities are n't going to do it.Turning someones meter off ( power stays on , it is just not metered ) could be possible , but if I could hack a meter , I would be in the business of selling discounts .
I think the utilities might not like this sort of thing , so I am fairly sure they are not going to sit back and let someone eat their lunch .
This whole story is BS .
There are plenty of concerns with cyber security of power networks , residential meters are not really a big deal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can't turn off a houses power remotely, these smart meters don't have interrupting devices in them.The only interrupting devices between my power and my neighbors power are my main breaker and their main breaker.When the utility turns off someones power they send someone to physically pull the meter.You  could build a meter with interrupting capability, but it would cost $$ so utilities aren't going to do it.Turning someones meter off (power stays on, it is just not metered) could be possible, but if I could hack a meter, I would be in the business of selling discounts.
I think the utilities might not like this sort of thing, so I am fairly sure they are not going to sit back and let someone eat their lunch.
This whole story is BS.
There are plenty of concerns with cyber security of power networks, residential meters are not really a big deal.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646814</id>
	<title>hackers?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269786780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Anyone remember the end of "hackers" (the movie) ?  They where showing text on a apartment building by controlling which lights go on and off...<br>Guess it is possible now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Anyone remember the end of " hackers " ( the movie ) ?
They where showing text on a apartment building by controlling which lights go on and off...Guess it is possible now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anyone remember the end of "hackers" (the movie) ?
They where showing text on a apartment building by controlling which lights go on and off...Guess it is possible now.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648226</id>
	<title>Re:Very meticulous methodology report...</title>
	<author>Securityemo</author>
	<datestamp>1269798840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Also, they where hired by the companies themselves to conduct the testing. As a professional, you release only what the client wants/allows you to release, or you're both breaching contract and burning your chances at ever working in the field again, especially with such a high-profile client. Isn't that obvious?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Also , they where hired by the companies themselves to conduct the testing .
As a professional , you release only what the client wants/allows you to release , or you 're both breaching contract and burning your chances at ever working in the field again , especially with such a high-profile client .
Is n't that obvious ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Also, they where hired by the companies themselves to conduct the testing.
As a professional, you release only what the client wants/allows you to release, or you're both breaching contract and burning your chances at ever working in the field again, especially with such a high-profile client.
Isn't that obvious?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647220</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646726</id>
	<title>Re:Completely useless</title>
	<author>zarzu</author>
	<datestamp>1269785160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>you might want to read up on smart meters and studies associated with them. they can help reduce your energy usage (together with near real time feedback provided by the meter) and change the usage distribution. i don't think i have to tell you why it's a good thing, for you and our whole energy/climate situation, to decrease your overall usage. flattening down the distribution away from the peaks we see today will help stabilizing and securing the grid (and reduce costs for the utility). obviously that doesn't excuse security problems in the system and they have to be addressed immediately.</p><p>energy theft has been a rather big problem in some countries and was an easy thing to accomplish. go ask italy why enel introduced smart meters back in 2001, even though they still don't profit of any userfeedback or newer billing plans. the main goal of introducing smart meters from the point of utilities is exactly to reduce energy theft, you think they're introducing flaws on purpose because they want to loose money?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>you might want to read up on smart meters and studies associated with them .
they can help reduce your energy usage ( together with near real time feedback provided by the meter ) and change the usage distribution .
i do n't think i have to tell you why it 's a good thing , for you and our whole energy/climate situation , to decrease your overall usage .
flattening down the distribution away from the peaks we see today will help stabilizing and securing the grid ( and reduce costs for the utility ) .
obviously that does n't excuse security problems in the system and they have to be addressed immediately.energy theft has been a rather big problem in some countries and was an easy thing to accomplish .
go ask italy why enel introduced smart meters back in 2001 , even though they still do n't profit of any userfeedback or newer billing plans .
the main goal of introducing smart meters from the point of utilities is exactly to reduce energy theft , you think they 're introducing flaws on purpose because they want to loose money ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>you might want to read up on smart meters and studies associated with them.
they can help reduce your energy usage (together with near real time feedback provided by the meter) and change the usage distribution.
i don't think i have to tell you why it's a good thing, for you and our whole energy/climate situation, to decrease your overall usage.
flattening down the distribution away from the peaks we see today will help stabilizing and securing the grid (and reduce costs for the utility).
obviously that doesn't excuse security problems in the system and they have to be addressed immediately.energy theft has been a rather big problem in some countries and was an easy thing to accomplish.
go ask italy why enel introduced smart meters back in 2001, even though they still don't profit of any userfeedback or newer billing plans.
the main goal of introducing smart meters from the point of utilities is exactly to reduce energy theft, you think they're introducing flaws on purpose because they want to loose money?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31649298</id>
	<title>Re:Security holes found...</title>
	<author>SteelWing</author>
	<datestamp>1269806220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Odds are if anyone is smart enough to exploit said holes they would probably just lower the reading on the meter for a lower power bill. Calm the fuck down already. This article has alarmist written all over it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Odds are if anyone is smart enough to exploit said holes they would probably just lower the reading on the meter for a lower power bill .
Calm the fuck down already .
This article has alarmist written all over it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Odds are if anyone is smart enough to exploit said holes they would probably just lower the reading on the meter for a lower power bill.
Calm the fuck down already.
This article has alarmist written all over it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646532</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647426</id>
	<title>And IBM and other LOVE it</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269792720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>They are COUNTING on idiots that will depend on them. This is the IBM that ships their manufacturing to China and their software to India. Of course, they know that they have LOADS of security issues. BUT, like Windows, people will have to buy new ones to stay ahead of the crackers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>They are COUNTING on idiots that will depend on them .
This is the IBM that ships their manufacturing to China and their software to India .
Of course , they know that they have LOADS of security issues .
BUT , like Windows , people will have to buy new ones to stay ahead of the crackers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They are COUNTING on idiots that will depend on them.
This is the IBM that ships their manufacturing to China and their software to India.
Of course, they know that they have LOADS of security issues.
BUT, like Windows, people will have to buy new ones to stay ahead of the crackers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31649378</id>
	<title>similar in Italy</title>
	<author>Luke\_22</author>
	<datestamp>1269806760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>we had a similar problem in Italy.
basically the new electricity meters were infrared-accessibile.
password protected, of course.
no need to hack anything trough, just use '0000', '1234' or '3635' ("enel as written with a cellphone, it's the company name).
ta-da! full access.

so what did we do? nothing. but we're in italy after all...</htmltext>
<tokenext>we had a similar problem in Italy .
basically the new electricity meters were infrared-accessibile .
password protected , of course .
no need to hack anything trough , just use '0000 ' , '1234 ' or '3635 ' ( " enel as written with a cellphone , it 's the company name ) .
ta-da ! full access .
so what did we do ?
nothing. but we 're in italy after all.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>we had a similar problem in Italy.
basically the new electricity meters were infrared-accessibile.
password protected, of course.
no need to hack anything trough, just use '0000', '1234' or '3635' ("enel as written with a cellphone, it's the company name).
ta-da! full access.
so what did we do?
nothing. but we're in italy after all...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31657110</id>
	<title>I have to ask</title>
	<author>kilodelta</author>
	<datestamp>1269877500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If one could jack up the power bill, one could also ratchet it down too.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If one could jack up the power bill , one could also ratchet it down too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If one could jack up the power bill, one could also ratchet it down too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646856</id>
	<title>Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter'</title>
	<author>pnewhook</author>
	<datestamp>1269787320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My utility company gave me web access to my smartmeter, so I can check my daily consumption whenever I want, just like they can.
</p><p>Is that the capability you are looking for?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My utility company gave me web access to my smartmeter , so I can check my daily consumption whenever I want , just like they can .
Is that the capability you are looking for ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My utility company gave me web access to my smartmeter, so I can check my daily consumption whenever I want, just like they can.
Is that the capability you are looking for?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646586</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647376</id>
	<title>Not what they're used to considering</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269792360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The traditional problems utilities have had to deal with are of physical intrusion, either by customers or by neighbors, looking to bypass the meter, modify the readings, or steal electricity.  They solve this (or at least reduce it to a manageable level) mostly with intrusion detection -- basically, seals so they know the meter has been tampered with.  In this model, the only loss is money and so preventing it at high cost doesn't make sense; detecting and stopping it reasonably quickly is more important.</p><p>With meters which do more than metering, that's just not good enough.  Significant effort must be made to prevent malicious people from surreptitiously turning power off, otherwise assholes will do it just for lols.  It's not like ripping a meter off the wall, which will have the same effect but carries high likelyhood of getting caught.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The traditional problems utilities have had to deal with are of physical intrusion , either by customers or by neighbors , looking to bypass the meter , modify the readings , or steal electricity .
They solve this ( or at least reduce it to a manageable level ) mostly with intrusion detection -- basically , seals so they know the meter has been tampered with .
In this model , the only loss is money and so preventing it at high cost does n't make sense ; detecting and stopping it reasonably quickly is more important.With meters which do more than metering , that 's just not good enough .
Significant effort must be made to prevent malicious people from surreptitiously turning power off , otherwise assholes will do it just for lols .
It 's not like ripping a meter off the wall , which will have the same effect but carries high likelyhood of getting caught .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The traditional problems utilities have had to deal with are of physical intrusion, either by customers or by neighbors, looking to bypass the meter, modify the readings, or steal electricity.
They solve this (or at least reduce it to a manageable level) mostly with intrusion detection -- basically, seals so they know the meter has been tampered with.
In this model, the only loss is money and so preventing it at high cost doesn't make sense; detecting and stopping it reasonably quickly is more important.With meters which do more than metering, that's just not good enough.
Significant effort must be made to prevent malicious people from surreptitiously turning power off, otherwise assholes will do it just for lols.
It's not like ripping a meter off the wall, which will have the same effect but carries high likelyhood of getting caught.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647844</id>
	<title>I Smell A Rat</title>
	<author>anorlunda</author>
	<datestamp>1269796020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was an engineering consultant for 40 years. I'm well familiar with the politics and ethics of engineering studies.   Something is fishy here.</p><p>The AP says that Wright's firm was hired by three utilities.   The web material suggests that it was actually ucaiug.org (an association of both vendors and utilities)  Presumably, they financed the security study to expose vulnerabilities so that they could fix them.   They did it openly and allowed the report to be published.   That's laudable and responsible behavior.  It is the opposite of denial and secrecy.</p><p>Normally, Wright and his team write the report and the vendors and utilities fix the problems.  However, Wright is going pubic in a big way.  He, with cooperation from the media, is mongering fear and suggesting that the vendors and utilities don't care about security.  He's acting in a way that brings maximum bad publicity to his financial sponsors.  That is extraordinary behavior for a consultant.  If it was I that hired him, I would feel betrayed.</p><p>I really can't tell if he's doing it for shameless and unethical purposes of self promotion, or whether there was a breakdown in relations between the consultant and the clients.  Somewhere there is an enormous untold back story.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was an engineering consultant for 40 years .
I 'm well familiar with the politics and ethics of engineering studies .
Something is fishy here.The AP says that Wright 's firm was hired by three utilities .
The web material suggests that it was actually ucaiug.org ( an association of both vendors and utilities ) Presumably , they financed the security study to expose vulnerabilities so that they could fix them .
They did it openly and allowed the report to be published .
That 's laudable and responsible behavior .
It is the opposite of denial and secrecy.Normally , Wright and his team write the report and the vendors and utilities fix the problems .
However , Wright is going pubic in a big way .
He , with cooperation from the media , is mongering fear and suggesting that the vendors and utilities do n't care about security .
He 's acting in a way that brings maximum bad publicity to his financial sponsors .
That is extraordinary behavior for a consultant .
If it was I that hired him , I would feel betrayed.I really ca n't tell if he 's doing it for shameless and unethical purposes of self promotion , or whether there was a breakdown in relations between the consultant and the clients .
Somewhere there is an enormous untold back story .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was an engineering consultant for 40 years.
I'm well familiar with the politics and ethics of engineering studies.
Something is fishy here.The AP says that Wright's firm was hired by three utilities.
The web material suggests that it was actually ucaiug.org (an association of both vendors and utilities)  Presumably, they financed the security study to expose vulnerabilities so that they could fix them.
They did it openly and allowed the report to be published.
That's laudable and responsible behavior.
It is the opposite of denial and secrecy.Normally, Wright and his team write the report and the vendors and utilities fix the problems.
However, Wright is going pubic in a big way.
He, with cooperation from the media, is mongering fear and suggesting that the vendors and utilities don't care about security.
He's acting in a way that brings maximum bad publicity to his financial sponsors.
That is extraordinary behavior for a consultant.
If it was I that hired him, I would feel betrayed.I really can't tell if he's doing it for shameless and unethical purposes of self promotion, or whether there was a breakdown in relations between the consultant and the clients.
Somewhere there is an enormous untold back story.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646560</id>
	<title>didn't the Chinese warn us?</title>
	<author>cryoman23</author>
	<datestamp>1269782460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>didn't the Chinese warn us? i mean i wasn't to long ago that i read an article here about some Chinese guy warning us about a flaw in our power grid....</htmltext>
<tokenext>did n't the Chinese warn us ?
i mean i was n't to long ago that i read an article here about some Chinese guy warning us about a flaw in our power grid... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>didn't the Chinese warn us?
i mean i wasn't to long ago that i read an article here about some Chinese guy warning us about a flaw in our power grid....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31656964</id>
	<title>Zigbee</title>
	<author>jeffblevins</author>
	<datestamp>1269876840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A lot of these smart meters utilize 802.15.4 (2.4Ghz) radios running a Zigbee stack.  802.15.4 is DSSS like 802.11.  The same vulnerabilities exist in both topologies.

There are two pieces to this system.  The utility area network and the home area network.  They are generally required to be separate bands.  For instance, A Zigbee HAN and a cellular backhaul.  The architecture of the 'system' would limit a hacker to individual homes.  Replay attacks I understand are particularly successful but they don't allow you to propagate back to the utility to shut down entire neighborhoods.

It's just as dangerous as having a wifi router in your home.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A lot of these smart meters utilize 802.15.4 ( 2.4Ghz ) radios running a Zigbee stack .
802.15.4 is DSSS like 802.11 .
The same vulnerabilities exist in both topologies .
There are two pieces to this system .
The utility area network and the home area network .
They are generally required to be separate bands .
For instance , A Zigbee HAN and a cellular backhaul .
The architecture of the 'system ' would limit a hacker to individual homes .
Replay attacks I understand are particularly successful but they do n't allow you to propagate back to the utility to shut down entire neighborhoods .
It 's just as dangerous as having a wifi router in your home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A lot of these smart meters utilize 802.15.4 (2.4Ghz) radios running a Zigbee stack.
802.15.4 is DSSS like 802.11.
The same vulnerabilities exist in both topologies.
There are two pieces to this system.
The utility area network and the home area network.
They are generally required to be separate bands.
For instance, A Zigbee HAN and a cellular backhaul.
The architecture of the 'system' would limit a hacker to individual homes.
Replay attacks I understand are particularly successful but they don't allow you to propagate back to the utility to shut down entire neighborhoods.
It's just as dangerous as having a wifi router in your home.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646664</id>
	<title>Completely useless</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269784200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I fail to see any improvement by introducing a computer into a electrical connection. They're still opt-in (at least here), but they really provide no benefit to the consumer, and a huge point of failure when something goes wrong.  Even when they're working as designed, your air conditioner won't work as well when it's hottest. And now they have these huge security flaws that could let someone remotely turn off your electricity, change how much your bill is, and even mess with the electric grid.  They really are a nightmare for the consumer.</p><p>Unless I could find that software, then I'd get one in a second, build some fake solar cells and windmills on the roof, and spin that thing backwards 24/7.  I'd even build a perpetual motion machine that was secretly powered by electricity and claim it was producing it, just to mess with people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I fail to see any improvement by introducing a computer into a electrical connection .
They 're still opt-in ( at least here ) , but they really provide no benefit to the consumer , and a huge point of failure when something goes wrong .
Even when they 're working as designed , your air conditioner wo n't work as well when it 's hottest .
And now they have these huge security flaws that could let someone remotely turn off your electricity , change how much your bill is , and even mess with the electric grid .
They really are a nightmare for the consumer.Unless I could find that software , then I 'd get one in a second , build some fake solar cells and windmills on the roof , and spin that thing backwards 24/7 .
I 'd even build a perpetual motion machine that was secretly powered by electricity and claim it was producing it , just to mess with people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I fail to see any improvement by introducing a computer into a electrical connection.
They're still opt-in (at least here), but they really provide no benefit to the consumer, and a huge point of failure when something goes wrong.
Even when they're working as designed, your air conditioner won't work as well when it's hottest.
And now they have these huge security flaws that could let someone remotely turn off your electricity, change how much your bill is, and even mess with the electric grid.
They really are a nightmare for the consumer.Unless I could find that software, then I'd get one in a second, build some fake solar cells and windmills on the roof, and spin that thing backwards 24/7.
I'd even build a perpetual motion machine that was secretly powered by electricity and claim it was producing it, just to mess with people.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646632</id>
	<title>Wow, blinkenlights in hughe!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269783540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>With this you could use a whole country to display a message for aliens, or to entertain the astronauts on iss.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>With this you could use a whole country to display a message for aliens , or to entertain the astronauts on iss .
: - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>With this you could use a whole country to display a message for aliens, or to entertain the astronauts on iss.
:-)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31649108</id>
	<title>Too much functionality</title>
	<author>Animats</author>
	<datestamp>1269804900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
The trouble with "smart meters" and the "smart grid" is that it's too easy to put in excess functionality that can cause trouble. The ability to do remote firmware upgrades is an example.  The ability of meters to communicate with each other is another.
</p><p>
The "smart grid" has way too much centralized control in it.  All that's really needed is remote meter reading, plus some broadcast signals to indicate how scarce power is at the moment.  The customer should have read-only access to their meter from their side of the meter.  High-current appliances should be able to query the meter to find out if it's OK to draw heavy power right now. The power company should have no data path to appliances.
</p><p>
Incidentally, some "smart meters" support pre-paid service, where customers have to pay in advance and are turned off automatically when their pre-payment runs out.  There's also wattage-limited service, where the power turns off if a maximum load is exceeded.
This can be used for collection purposes; if you get behind on your electric bill, your consumption is limited.  There's a whole new range of ways for screwing poor people going in.  It's like "check cashing" stores.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The trouble with " smart meters " and the " smart grid " is that it 's too easy to put in excess functionality that can cause trouble .
The ability to do remote firmware upgrades is an example .
The ability of meters to communicate with each other is another .
The " smart grid " has way too much centralized control in it .
All that 's really needed is remote meter reading , plus some broadcast signals to indicate how scarce power is at the moment .
The customer should have read-only access to their meter from their side of the meter .
High-current appliances should be able to query the meter to find out if it 's OK to draw heavy power right now .
The power company should have no data path to appliances .
Incidentally , some " smart meters " support pre-paid service , where customers have to pay in advance and are turned off automatically when their pre-payment runs out .
There 's also wattage-limited service , where the power turns off if a maximum load is exceeded .
This can be used for collection purposes ; if you get behind on your electric bill , your consumption is limited .
There 's a whole new range of ways for screwing poor people going in .
It 's like " check cashing " stores .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
The trouble with "smart meters" and the "smart grid" is that it's too easy to put in excess functionality that can cause trouble.
The ability to do remote firmware upgrades is an example.
The ability of meters to communicate with each other is another.
The "smart grid" has way too much centralized control in it.
All that's really needed is remote meter reading, plus some broadcast signals to indicate how scarce power is at the moment.
The customer should have read-only access to their meter from their side of the meter.
High-current appliances should be able to query the meter to find out if it's OK to draw heavy power right now.
The power company should have no data path to appliances.
Incidentally, some "smart meters" support pre-paid service, where customers have to pay in advance and are turned off automatically when their pre-payment runs out.
There's also wattage-limited service, where the power turns off if a maximum load is exceeded.
This can be used for collection purposes; if you get behind on your electric bill, your consumption is limited.
There's a whole new range of ways for screwing poor people going in.
It's like "check cashing" stores.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31660918</id>
	<title>I work for a utility</title>
	<author>SoupGuru</author>
	<datestamp>1269893880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Sorry, late to the party.<br><br>I work for an electric cooperative. We have automated meter reading. Each night, each meter sends in the reading for the day. We're thinking about going hourly. We're actually part of a pilot project for demand response. As someone brought up in a previous post, these meters works wonders for outage management. We can now "ping" meters. A member calls in an outage, we ping the feeder he's off of and within minutes we pinpoint the piece of equipment that has failed.<br><br>I'm actually excited about a lot of this new technology because I can see where it's going and it's not all that big brotherish. I think the largest benefit to everyone involved is the increased ability to monitor consumption. As it is now, you use a bunch of power and only find out what you're getting billed for at the end of the month. Some people get surprised. Wouldn't it be neat to have an in-home display (maybe your thermostat) that shows your current (heh) usage by the hour? You can now identify which times of day you're using the most juice, things like that. And no surprises when you get the bill.<br><br>Demand response is going to be huge. As we run out of places to build dams of power plants we need to do better with what we have. The silliest thing is some unreal proportion of generation sits there idle until 5 pm when everyone gets home and turns the heat up and their TV on. That demand spike requires us to generate huge amounts of energy for just an hour or two and then the generators sit there are spin at idle until the next peak. So if you can make that peak not so sharp or not so high, everyone wins when it comes to the bottom lines. The utility is otherwise forced to buy peak power at a premium and forced to pass that cost on.<br><br>So now we're piloting a project where people's electric heat and water heater are hooked up via the "smart" grid and during a peak event, for 45 minutes, we set back their thermostat 3 degrees and shut their water heater off. So, for that barely noticeable impact on a person's life, everyone gets savings. It's also a ton better than rolling blackouts or brownouts.<br><br>I honestly think the project as it is is a pretty hard sell but I envision hourly pricing data sent down the wire to a consumer's smart appliances. You want to do a load of laundry and when you push the start button on your drier is says "Currently $0.16/kwh. If you wait 2 hrs, power will be $0.12. Start now or wait?" Leave it in the hands of the consumers. Give them the correct up to date knowledge to make good choices.<br><br>But you can't get from here to there without the baby steps. You need to start collecting a ton of data on people's usage. You need to know where and when your peaks are. You need to be able to predict them. You need to be able to interact with the consumer. Gone are the days of your dumb meter, and thank God for that. I realize some of the growing pains aren't that great but I think it will pay off in the long run.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry , late to the party.I work for an electric cooperative .
We have automated meter reading .
Each night , each meter sends in the reading for the day .
We 're thinking about going hourly .
We 're actually part of a pilot project for demand response .
As someone brought up in a previous post , these meters works wonders for outage management .
We can now " ping " meters .
A member calls in an outage , we ping the feeder he 's off of and within minutes we pinpoint the piece of equipment that has failed.I 'm actually excited about a lot of this new technology because I can see where it 's going and it 's not all that big brotherish .
I think the largest benefit to everyone involved is the increased ability to monitor consumption .
As it is now , you use a bunch of power and only find out what you 're getting billed for at the end of the month .
Some people get surprised .
Would n't it be neat to have an in-home display ( maybe your thermostat ) that shows your current ( heh ) usage by the hour ?
You can now identify which times of day you 're using the most juice , things like that .
And no surprises when you get the bill.Demand response is going to be huge .
As we run out of places to build dams of power plants we need to do better with what we have .
The silliest thing is some unreal proportion of generation sits there idle until 5 pm when everyone gets home and turns the heat up and their TV on .
That demand spike requires us to generate huge amounts of energy for just an hour or two and then the generators sit there are spin at idle until the next peak .
So if you can make that peak not so sharp or not so high , everyone wins when it comes to the bottom lines .
The utility is otherwise forced to buy peak power at a premium and forced to pass that cost on.So now we 're piloting a project where people 's electric heat and water heater are hooked up via the " smart " grid and during a peak event , for 45 minutes , we set back their thermostat 3 degrees and shut their water heater off .
So , for that barely noticeable impact on a person 's life , everyone gets savings .
It 's also a ton better than rolling blackouts or brownouts.I honestly think the project as it is is a pretty hard sell but I envision hourly pricing data sent down the wire to a consumer 's smart appliances .
You want to do a load of laundry and when you push the start button on your drier is says " Currently $ 0.16/kwh .
If you wait 2 hrs , power will be $ 0.12 .
Start now or wait ?
" Leave it in the hands of the consumers .
Give them the correct up to date knowledge to make good choices.But you ca n't get from here to there without the baby steps .
You need to start collecting a ton of data on people 's usage .
You need to know where and when your peaks are .
You need to be able to predict them .
You need to be able to interact with the consumer .
Gone are the days of your dumb meter , and thank God for that .
I realize some of the growing pains are n't that great but I think it will pay off in the long run .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry, late to the party.I work for an electric cooperative.
We have automated meter reading.
Each night, each meter sends in the reading for the day.
We're thinking about going hourly.
We're actually part of a pilot project for demand response.
As someone brought up in a previous post, these meters works wonders for outage management.
We can now "ping" meters.
A member calls in an outage, we ping the feeder he's off of and within minutes we pinpoint the piece of equipment that has failed.I'm actually excited about a lot of this new technology because I can see where it's going and it's not all that big brotherish.
I think the largest benefit to everyone involved is the increased ability to monitor consumption.
As it is now, you use a bunch of power and only find out what you're getting billed for at the end of the month.
Some people get surprised.
Wouldn't it be neat to have an in-home display (maybe your thermostat) that shows your current (heh) usage by the hour?
You can now identify which times of day you're using the most juice, things like that.
And no surprises when you get the bill.Demand response is going to be huge.
As we run out of places to build dams of power plants we need to do better with what we have.
The silliest thing is some unreal proportion of generation sits there idle until 5 pm when everyone gets home and turns the heat up and their TV on.
That demand spike requires us to generate huge amounts of energy for just an hour or two and then the generators sit there are spin at idle until the next peak.
So if you can make that peak not so sharp or not so high, everyone wins when it comes to the bottom lines.
The utility is otherwise forced to buy peak power at a premium and forced to pass that cost on.So now we're piloting a project where people's electric heat and water heater are hooked up via the "smart" grid and during a peak event, for 45 minutes, we set back their thermostat 3 degrees and shut their water heater off.
So, for that barely noticeable impact on a person's life, everyone gets savings.
It's also a ton better than rolling blackouts or brownouts.I honestly think the project as it is is a pretty hard sell but I envision hourly pricing data sent down the wire to a consumer's smart appliances.
You want to do a load of laundry and when you push the start button on your drier is says "Currently $0.16/kwh.
If you wait 2 hrs, power will be $0.12.
Start now or wait?
" Leave it in the hands of the consumers.
Give them the correct up to date knowledge to make good choices.But you can't get from here to there without the baby steps.
You need to start collecting a ton of data on people's usage.
You need to know where and when your peaks are.
You need to be able to predict them.
You need to be able to interact with the consumer.
Gone are the days of your dumb meter, and thank God for that.
I realize some of the growing pains aren't that great but I think it will pay off in the long run.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31654964</id>
	<title>Re:Normally, I wouldnt recomend this...</title>
	<author>volpe</author>
	<datestamp>1269862680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>OK, I'll bite: Why wouldn't you normally recommend this?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>OK , I 'll bite : Why would n't you normally recommend this ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>OK, I'll bite: Why wouldn't you normally recommend this?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646578</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31652946</id>
	<title>My simple interview question</title>
	<author>rkinch</author>
	<datestamp>1269794220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I ask how you would solve Jumble puzzles from the newspaper, given a vocabulary text file.  Exhaustive search is not the answer, but given that the glut of CPU power and storage has fostered brute-force approaches to everything, this is surprisingly a quite common proposal.
<p>
The solution is quite obviously a hash lookup, but you would be surprised how few "programmers" come up with that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I ask how you would solve Jumble puzzles from the newspaper , given a vocabulary text file .
Exhaustive search is not the answer , but given that the glut of CPU power and storage has fostered brute-force approaches to everything , this is surprisingly a quite common proposal .
The solution is quite obviously a hash lookup , but you would be surprised how few " programmers " come up with that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I ask how you would solve Jumble puzzles from the newspaper, given a vocabulary text file.
Exhaustive search is not the answer, but given that the glut of CPU power and storage has fostered brute-force approaches to everything, this is surprisingly a quite common proposal.
The solution is quite obviously a hash lookup, but you would be surprised how few "programmers" come up with that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647132</id>
	<title>why?</title>
	<author>DaveGod</author>
	<datestamp>1269790380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm confused, why is it physically possible for anyone to remotely turn power on and off? That doesn't have anything to do with "help deliver electricity more efficiently and to measure power consumption in real time". Surely the entire software and circuity surrounding those features should be able to fail completely with the core system (supply of electricity) completely unaffected and oblivious? I'm tempted to assume someone has other, less marketable objectives for the smart meters such as being able to cheaply disconnect people who aren't paying the bill, and therefore the root of the problem is those inherently risky objectives.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm confused , why is it physically possible for anyone to remotely turn power on and off ?
That does n't have anything to do with " help deliver electricity more efficiently and to measure power consumption in real time " .
Surely the entire software and circuity surrounding those features should be able to fail completely with the core system ( supply of electricity ) completely unaffected and oblivious ?
I 'm tempted to assume someone has other , less marketable objectives for the smart meters such as being able to cheaply disconnect people who are n't paying the bill , and therefore the root of the problem is those inherently risky objectives .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm confused, why is it physically possible for anyone to remotely turn power on and off?
That doesn't have anything to do with "help deliver electricity more efficiently and to measure power consumption in real time".
Surely the entire software and circuity surrounding those features should be able to fail completely with the core system (supply of electricity) completely unaffected and oblivious?
I'm tempted to assume someone has other, less marketable objectives for the smart meters such as being able to cheaply disconnect people who aren't paying the bill, and therefore the root of the problem is those inherently risky objectives.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646690</id>
	<title>Why aren't these things read-only?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269784380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can see the benefit in making meters network-enabled just to prevent having to send someone to read the meter physically, but why would you want to be able to control them remotely?  That doesn't seem like it's worth the risk.  Make the thing read-only, with some standard way of collecting the data - using SNMP or something.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I can see the benefit in making meters network-enabled just to prevent having to send someone to read the meter physically , but why would you want to be able to control them remotely ?
That does n't seem like it 's worth the risk .
Make the thing read-only , with some standard way of collecting the data - using SNMP or something .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can see the benefit in making meters network-enabled just to prevent having to send someone to read the meter physically, but why would you want to be able to control them remotely?
That doesn't seem like it's worth the risk.
Make the thing read-only, with some standard way of collecting the data - using SNMP or something.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_11</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646776
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646664
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_1</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31650666
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648888
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_30</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646754
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646548
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_18</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647344
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646704
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_15</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31655206
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648888
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_5</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31650948
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646690
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_31</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648528
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647244
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646668
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646548
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_9</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647624
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646690
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_3</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646722
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646690
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_2</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31649298
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646532
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_23</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646886
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646548
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_19</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646646
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646618
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_7</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648650
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647132
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_6</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648346
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646668
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646548
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_27</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647190
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646532
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_0</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647066
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646586
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_21</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646856
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646586
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_20</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647084
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646690
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_4</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646568
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646532
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_25</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646726
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646664
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_24</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646738
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646664
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_8</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646788
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646664
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_12</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648168
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647244
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646668
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646548
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_28</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647068
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646532
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_22</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31654964
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646578
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_16</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31657430
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646586
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_29</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31655428
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646586
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_13</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31663002
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648888
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_10</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31774362
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647844
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_26</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648226
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647220
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646704
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_17</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31662818
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647132
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_0429217_14</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31655086
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647132
</commentlist>
</thread>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.15</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646618
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646646
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.9</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31655724
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.3</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648888
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31650666
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31663002
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31655206
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.1</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646664
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646726
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646788
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646738
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646776
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.8</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647132
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648650
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31655086
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31662818
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.7</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646586
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646856
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647066
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31657430
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31655428
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.5</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646704
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647220
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648226
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647344
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.2</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646690
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647084
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647624
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646722
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31650948
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.14</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646548
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646754
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646668
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648346
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647244
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648528
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31648168
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646886
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.0</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646532
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647190
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31649298
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646568
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647068
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.12</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31649108
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.6</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647376
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.18</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646796
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.4</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646814
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.16</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647844
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31774362
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.13</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646554
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.17</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31647580
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.10</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31652946
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_28_0429217.11</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31646578
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_0429217.31654964
</commentlist>
</conversation>
